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What's up? Another Tuesday night. My name is Cedric Youngelman. This is Bitcoin Center.

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I'm joined by a special co-host, Ben Justbin. What's up, Ben? How are you?

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Hey, Cedric. Pumped to be here. Pumped to get into these topics with you.

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And I love this format.

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Yeah, man. What are you up to these days in terms of Bitcoin?

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Are you listening to any podcasts? Are you just kind of stacking and forgetting about it?

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Are you kind of bemoaning the whole 33% pullback here?

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You know, I wish I could be buying the dip harder.

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And I've had a few people just that know I'm into Bitcoin and maybe are tangentially in

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ask me if I'm buying the dip, kind of looking to read my sentiment.

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And I don't really know how to respond.

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I feel like I'm speaking a different language because I've been Bitcoin

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and I didn't buy the dip anything special just because it's kind of a constant flow from the

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business getting paid in Bitcoin. So I'm not worried by the dip. Thankful for the opportunity

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always. Definitely was expecting more this year, but kind of sets up a nice 2026. So feeling happy

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about that. Do you think everybody was expecting more this year? No one was making price predictions

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below 100,000. Even the people that I was dunking on for being bearish were calling for 200,000 or

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at least 150 by the end of the year. I think 126 as the top and who knows, could happen,

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could get a real rebound. But 126 as a top for this year was definitely under what people expected.

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But the thing is, with price predictions, is everyone who understands Bitcoin predicts something more.

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But the majority of the world is predicting Bitcoin at zero.

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So if you average everything together, the bulls are doing pretty good.

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Now, Andy Edstrom, back in January on Bitcoin Matrix, said Bitcoiners might not see the liquidity they're hoping for this year.

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and I think he's one of the few people who just kind of

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expressed you might not get to sell those stats at the 175, the 225, the 275,

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you know, in 2025 that everybody was kind of hoping for expecting.

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And it's like it always goes differently than the way the crowd expects.

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And then we think maybe our crowd is too small to be what everyone expects,

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you know, but it always seems to go against the sort of the common consensus narrative.

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But our crowd is definitely the crowd. Well, some of the crowd in the market, at least setting the tone in a lot of ways as some of the Bitcoin experts.

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But you're right. He was right that the liquidity just didn't come.

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And it was for all the listening I do, for all the research I do, just like as someone who's really into Bitcoin, really into learning about markets, I guess I didn't see it coming.

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And that's kind of a shock to like my ability to discern things and kind of a reset to humble me once again in the ability to take off my bolt-hinted glasses and try and be a little bit more discerning.

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But the consensus view is that once Trump gets control of the Fed leadership and is gearing up for midterms and sends out the idea potentially of a stimulus check, 2026 is setting up for a crazy year.

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And so much in the backdrop of what's going on in 2025 is insanely bullish.

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It's just, yeah, that liquidity isn't coming or isn't here yet.

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and dissection we have.

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But even in the last couple of days,

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I was seeing, as we were correcting,

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it was a bunch of AI fear and stuff like that.

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And as we've corrected,

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now all I'm seeing is basically

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that Trump administration is going to backstop AI

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and provide any funding they need

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because if AI fails,

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the United States goes into a crazy recession

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or can't pay its debts.

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Not that they can anyway,

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But it just really seems like the fire was put on to or the fire was put out and they're going to smother it and just make sure we survive to another day at any cost.

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Yeah, I mean, if I was putting my tinfoil hat on, I can't tell if, you know, sort of the Trump regime doesn't want Bitcoin price to run because they still want maybe Wall Street and ETFs and to stack before.

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And I think they want to put a lot of legislation in place so that they could sell treasuries after it runs.

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or is it sort of price suppression maybe from our, you know, Trump's enemies like abroad?

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You know, the way maybe, you know, JP Morgan has been very influential in controlling maybe the gold market and gold pricing.

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Maybe the United States is running up gold pricing right now.

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You know, it's interesting.

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And maybe none of that's happening.

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So I don't know.

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I want to get into the topics with you.

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This is Bitcoin Center.

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Please hit like and subscribe.

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This is brought to you by Byte Federal.

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Go bank yourself.

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They got the point of sale, the crypto wallet and the Bitcoin ATM, of course, and buy it.

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put it in self-custody.

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Francis, let's get into the show.

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Let's be real, right?

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Praising Telegram for launching a Bitcoin wallet.

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I've always felt like with Haley.

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Bitcoin, this digital currency that's out there that people say, oh, it might be the next

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big thing.

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What do you think?

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I think it's a wrap point.

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Bitcoin. You never heard of them a few weeks ago? Now everybody's talking about them. But is it a currency?

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I don't know. Or is it more like a stock? Or is it a tulip bowl? Or is it just stupid?

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To me it smells like Ponzi scheme and the greater pool theory right here.

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You do like five minutes of freaking research.

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Well, thanks for coming to my set talk.

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Yes.

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Don't buy shit coins.

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Oh man, I didn't get that wrong. Alright. Bitcoin's recent rally.

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Do you agree? Is crypto finally dead? Go to the next one.

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Matter of fact, they're kind of in the Ethernet.

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What are they?

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Some rumors that it's a Japanese guy,

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but they know that he's a fake name.

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It was a pseudonym.

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You're literally putting real money onto a system

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that we don't even know who created it.

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It will come to a bad ending.

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Is this the most exciting bull run ever?

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Not for me.

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No, it's not.

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Welcome to Bitcoin Center, the fast-paced show where the debate is the story.

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All right, Ben, we'll do it a little differently this way tonight.

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I'll ask you, instead of all the topics, we'll kick it off and see what you're thinking.

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So the latest, Jack Moller came out and said he was debanked by JP Morgan in September.

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His father was, he said, also debanked, who has a long history of not just banking with

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them, but in the commodities exchange market in Chicago.

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And then Grant Cardone jumped in the mix.

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And then part of this is they seem to be mad over maybe JP Morgan shorting or influencing

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the strategy's price, share price.

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So what do you make of this?

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I think that we got a little bit complacent as Bitcoiners and thought that we won when Trump won and enacted the Bitcoin reserve with no teeth.

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And this is a reminder that there's still a long way to go before Bitcoiners and Bitcoin companies start getting treated with the rule of law that they deserve to be treated.

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My cousin on a family trip about a month ago, I finally got him into Bitcoin about a year ago.

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And he was laughing at the Chokepoint 2.0 comments because he's still dealing with Chokepoint 1.0 in the marijuana industry.

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And it's just kind of this continued thing that's going to keep getting swept under the rug and they're going to keep attacking.

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Banks are going to keep attacking their competitors.

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and strike is

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I mean Jack Maulers today

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or yesterday was saying like

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we're basically building a bank but we're not allowed to say

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we're a bank and so these

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big institutions see the writing on the wall

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and Bitcoiners are not the ally yet

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do you think

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JP Morgan's like hey look at strategy

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they're trying to offer 8, 10, 12%

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we're out here offering

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2 to 4% and we just don't want

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that to be successful

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yeah I mean strike's offering

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looking to offer the same thing on

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on dollars and until banks really get their world together in bitcoin and even then they're probably

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not as competitive as people that are already in the bitcoin sphere it's yeah it's a super

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competitive uh market and the best rate wins assuming writ i mean risk adjusted rate wins so

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yeah they're gonna be attacked with this and it's definitely like hey they still have the power

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They're still the 800-pound gorilla.

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They're still going to punch you down.

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And it's easy to get complacent with prices going up.

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So it's interesting to see this happen during a 33% dip.

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Yeah.

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I also can't tell if this 33% dip is great for Wall Street because they're maybe taking all the leveraged coins off people's hands.

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Let's move to the next one here.

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The Bitcoin for America Act was introduced.

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does congress's move to let taxpayers pay in bitcoin make sense how big of a deal is this

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i would say this is a moderate deal it's the first time i've heard of tax legislation

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around bitcoin outside of just not taxing it not taxing sales not taxing using it as money it's

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the first time that i've heard of an incentive structure that is a win for both sides congress

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gets to stack Bitcoin, they get a reason to put Bitcoin in the reserve. Is that in the bill? I

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got to ask you that. But also Bitcoiners get a real reason to actually pay their taxes in Bitcoin

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because in Colorado, you've been allowed to pay taxes in Bitcoin for at least three years. And I

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don't know anyone who would ever do that because you pay the capital gains tax and you're giving

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Bitcoin to the government. So this is the first time I've actually heard of a reason that Bitcoiners

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would pay their taxes in Bitcoin. Your company is Bitcoin preferred, correct? Yes, sir. And do you

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have, how have you managed it up until now? I mean, you don't have to tell us, you know, at a very high

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level. Do you have concerns around receiving sats and then either paying either your cost of goods,

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your expenses, or even just other things and buying things with sats? Do you just maybe do

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it one way and just receive and never spend those uh is there an evolution here like how do you

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think through that for the business everything goes through um through kyc rails um in the same

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place that i would sell and buy bitcoin so everything is tracked in that way and i just

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get a sheet at the end of the year do you pay capital gains or lost uh sort of do you deal with

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sort of gains and losses realized or unrealized and sort of track all that is or is that you try

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to just not do car mentalize those stats and maybe not track that you know well i'm always trying to

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stack as many stats as possible so selling is definitely something i try not to do and i

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avoided for the first four or five years i was in bitcoin um i was doing that by taking on

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just non-collateralized fiat loans to run the business and the goal for out of debt become free

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and do that with as much Bitcoin as possible.

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But we didn't reach a price that I really wanted to get,

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like rip the full Band-Aid off.

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So I sold a little Bitcoin to buy some infrastructure this year.

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And that is all just in, it's all kept into that same system.

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I get a tax report at the end of the year.

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I have my Satoshi Patroli tax guys working me through that.

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and um i did at 86 i said a what is it called a tax loss harvest so

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hopefully that'll save me some tax money this year so the dip the dip came good if you bought

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the top and and uh weren't going to sell anyway you know you'd love to have more sats but here we

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are yeah well thank you for sharing that let's move on to the next one uh you know there's the

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big censorship debate.

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So rolling out BIP444,

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which would temporarily ban

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large op return data

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and even disable

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ordinal inscriptions.

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Is this an emergency fix

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against legal data,

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fear-mongering,

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or a dangerous precedent

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of censorship on Bitcoin?

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I lean towards the dangerous precedent

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of censorship.

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If Bitcoin's free to money,

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you're going to get some people

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doing things that you don't

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like to do with it.

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and i once you start censoring and and i've saw an argument that once you show you can censor then

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you're going to be required to censor um and that's more from the mining perspective from

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large miners but one of the things that argument and you know it just at a very high level it seems

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very logical there sort of uh you know yeah i mean i don know if you compare it to uh you know your door and your lock on your front door is not going to prevent every single criminal from getting in potentially but it still worth using and to prevent the riffraff from getting in and the less enabled or you know abled criminals

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You know, why wouldn't you want to prevent 99.9 percent?

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Yeah, but that's my house.

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Go for it.

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Yeah.

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No, no, I didn't mean to cut you off.

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You're saying probably that's your house.

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And then this is.

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I mean, that's a.

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That's my house.

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that's my livelihood and bitcoin is a bit leans a bit more into the um the commons and in the

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commons you have to allow a little bit more um freedom and flexibility if it is going to be a

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global common good than um in your personal property um i understand the desire to run a

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um a node that doesn't display those transactions and that's totally anyone's prerogative but

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I'm not in the wanting to censor Bitcoin in any way camp. And I would, yeah, I've fallen onto that

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camp. Yeah. All right. What about sort of maybe, you know, meeting in the middle and not maybe

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blowing out the opportunity to 100,000, but like maybe just double or tripling or 10Xing it or,

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you know, sort of listening to the community? I don't know, actually. I mean, when you say it like

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that, you raised some good points. And I'm really trying to balance, you know, sort of like the idea

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of, you know, like, yeah, like you could have a pool and say there's no rules here. But if people

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start, you know, defecating in the pool, that's going to ruin the experience for everyone. And,

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you know, and maybe no one goes to the pool anymore. And that's sort of the public square

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or the commons. Like we need some sort of maybe decorum. And like, what I'm having trouble weighing

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is sort of policy rules versus, you know, consensus rules as well.

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Sure. And I'm a bit of a layman on the subject, but a turd in the punch bowl ruins it for everybody.

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But some bad transcription on the Bitcoin blockchain, most people, it sucks for anyone

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affected transcription, but it doesn't ruin the baseline protocol for everybody.

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also i heard i one more thing is i i heard that the um initial operaturn limit didn't exist

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initially the operaturn limit didn't exist and so it was a change to add an operaturn limit and um

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thus further change to decrease it but ultimately like i'm just for less changes on bitcoin and more

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freedom um and i guess this isn't necessarily a change on bitcoin and anyone could run their own

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node software so um well this is bit 444 so it's a little bit different i'm i'm not in favor of some

221
00:16:48,276 --> 00:16:54,436
contentious thing i think there's so much going on in bitcoin that yeah i agree that solidarity

222
00:16:55,716 --> 00:17:02,596
yeah um i just i i yeah all right let's move on to the next one uh commerce secretary's 25

223
00:17:02,596 --> 00:17:09,316
billion tether windfall as uh howard lupnick's once cheap five percent tether stake balloons

224
00:17:09,316 --> 00:17:15,476
towards 25 billion dollar paper valuation does the u.s commerce secretary now sit at the center of

225
00:17:15,476 --> 00:17:24,356
the most glaring conflict of interest in washington i would say that that's uh i mean that's a pretty

226
00:17:24,356 --> 00:17:35,536
United States focused interest is stable coins. So yeah, while it's a conflict of interest from

227
00:17:35,536 --> 00:17:41,756
the perspective of one specific company, the stable coins are such a powerhouse thing,

228
00:17:41,976 --> 00:17:47,336
positive thing for the United States government in increasing dollar hegemony and increasing tax

229
00:17:47,336 --> 00:17:52,496
receipts around the world. I don't know. I'm just, I'm so ambivalent at this point. It's like all

230
00:17:52,496 --> 00:18:00,576
these people just have such conflicts of interest they're so corrupt that it is what it is and uh

231
00:18:00,576 --> 00:18:06,596
let nick being in favor of that probably what are you going to do yeah all right let's move on to

232
00:18:06,596 --> 00:18:13,156
the next one here the eu's single crypto uh supervisor the european commission is reportedly

233
00:18:13,156 --> 00:18:19,556
planning an sec like agency for all crypto and stock exchanges does this pave the way for true

234
00:18:19,556 --> 00:18:23,836
capital markets union or risk smothering innovation in smaller EU states?

235
00:18:26,336 --> 00:18:32,496
Man, you got to think that this is going to mean more smothering, especially given the way the EU

236
00:18:32,496 --> 00:18:36,596
has treated Bitcoin. They're not going to love this. Curious what you think on this one, Cedric.

237
00:18:37,556 --> 00:18:43,656
I think the EU is just massively behind. I don't think they want freedom for their people.

238
00:18:43,656 --> 00:18:49,496
I think they're reacting to the threat of both stablecoins and Bitcoin,

239
00:18:50,196 --> 00:18:52,156
and centralization is their answer.

240
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And I don't think it's going to go well, like you said.

241
00:18:54,856 --> 00:18:57,916
I think it's going to be corrupt and just sort of smother sort of innovation

242
00:18:57,916 --> 00:18:58,656
or anything good.

243
00:18:59,256 --> 00:19:01,296
But we'll keep an eye on them.

244
00:19:02,316 --> 00:19:04,556
We'll keep an eye on the EU over there across the pond.

245
00:19:04,956 --> 00:19:07,116
All right, let's head over to the lightning round.

246
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This is Bitcoin Center.

247
00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:10,216
Please hit like and subscribe.

248
00:19:10,216 --> 00:19:12,796
We got a special co-host here, Ben Justman.

249
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and uh ben tell us a little bit about your wine i love your wine i like the merlot i think the best

250
00:19:18,896 --> 00:19:24,856
and uh that was hard for me because i like the movie uh sideways and so i promised uh you know

251
00:19:24,856 --> 00:19:31,076
myself i'd never drink below but yours is actually pretty damn good so hey i appreciate that um i do

252
00:19:31,076 --> 00:19:35,636
get a lot of good feedback on my merlot it's just hard to get people to actually drink it because

253
00:19:35,636 --> 00:19:41,356
they've all seen the movie sideways and luckily my dad planted a pinot noir vineyard right around

254
00:19:41,356 --> 00:19:46,396
the time that movie came out. So we benefited massively from that. But yeah, I make low

255
00:19:46,396 --> 00:19:51,656
intervention wine up in the mountains of Colorado in the highest elevation wine region in North

256
00:19:51,656 --> 00:20:02,996
America. And I'm a Bitcoin forward business. So Bitcoin preferred always on my for sales of my

257
00:20:02,996 --> 00:20:09,296
wine. A lot of my time is spent working, talking to businesses about how to reach Bitcoiners,

258
00:20:09,296 --> 00:20:15,356
how to approach them, how to market to them, and what the best tools, the best way to approach

259
00:20:15,356 --> 00:20:22,536
using Bitcoin in the real world for the goods we need is best done. And the thing I keep coming

260
00:20:22,536 --> 00:20:28,836
back to is Bitcoin is not freedom money if we have to convert it to slave tokens in order to

261
00:20:28,836 --> 00:20:33,716
buy all the things we want. So building this Bitcoin economy is something that I've really

262
00:20:33,716 --> 00:20:38,976
felt like firsthand, but also I'm really motivated to continue working for.

263
00:20:40,256 --> 00:20:43,356
That's awesome. And how do you say the name of your winery?

264
00:20:44,596 --> 00:20:44,896
Peony.

265
00:20:46,036 --> 00:20:46,916
Oh, like the flower?

266
00:20:47,876 --> 00:20:48,116
Yes.

267
00:20:48,116 --> 00:20:48,416
Peonies?

268
00:20:49,256 --> 00:20:51,736
That's what I thought. All right. Awesome. And where does the name come from?

269
00:20:53,416 --> 00:21:00,916
My dad named his short-lived winery Peony Lane. So what's the namesake of my town,

270
00:21:00,916 --> 00:21:02,616
which is Paonia.

271
00:21:02,856 --> 00:21:06,236
It's a bastard spelling of P&E because the United States Postal Service

272
00:21:06,236 --> 00:21:09,496
didn't like P-A-O-E in the name.

273
00:21:09,736 --> 00:21:11,176
They didn't like the three vowels in a row,

274
00:21:11,276 --> 00:21:13,576
so they just ripped one off, and we got Paonia.

275
00:21:15,916 --> 00:21:16,476
All right.

276
00:21:16,536 --> 00:21:17,276
Well, all right.

277
00:21:17,276 --> 00:21:17,936
Sounds awesome.

278
00:21:18,056 --> 00:21:18,716
Well, I love your wine.

279
00:21:18,776 --> 00:21:19,716
It's a great time to order it.

280
00:21:20,816 --> 00:21:22,616
Hopefully, people should be able to order it now

281
00:21:22,616 --> 00:21:24,816
and probably get it for the holidays like Christmas and New Year's,

282
00:21:24,856 --> 00:21:28,016
but I already have some for Thanksgiving, so I'm a lucky guy.

283
00:21:28,416 --> 00:21:29,516
Let's get to the lightning round.

284
00:21:29,516 --> 00:21:31,356
I want to play that OG Andreas.

285
00:21:36,096 --> 00:21:36,736
Summarize.

286
00:21:37,216 --> 00:21:38,956
Any data can be encoded as any data.

287
00:21:39,936 --> 00:21:42,476
One person spams another person's content.

288
00:21:43,136 --> 00:21:46,676
The power to decide what is and what isn't allowed is dangerous

289
00:21:46,676 --> 00:21:48,676
because it leads to censorship.

290
00:21:48,896 --> 00:21:54,296
It also leads to giving the developers power over the protocol,

291
00:21:54,296 --> 00:21:58,016
which will eventually be used by someone else.

292
00:21:58,016 --> 00:22:05,196
and if the developers are shown to be able to censor,

293
00:22:05,336 --> 00:22:10,376
then they will become required to censor

294
00:22:10,376 --> 00:22:13,756
in any and all jurisdictions where they live.

295
00:22:15,216 --> 00:22:17,076
And so that's extremely dangerous.

296
00:22:19,036 --> 00:22:24,256
And people will be able to put ordinals and shit pegs

297
00:22:24,256 --> 00:22:29,256
and JPEGs and NFTs and garbage and Bible verses.

298
00:22:31,116 --> 00:22:32,216
I already said garbage.

299
00:22:32,216 --> 00:22:36,596
And other stuff on the blockchain,

300
00:22:36,596 --> 00:22:38,676
whether we want them to or not.

301
00:22:41,436 --> 00:22:45,776
And so I would rather people put it in an op return

302
00:22:45,776 --> 00:22:49,576
where we can then disregard it, prune it,

303
00:22:49,576 --> 00:22:52,036
and not have to carry it anymore forever

304
00:22:52,036 --> 00:22:56,596
than if they put it, hide it in other places of the protocol

305
00:22:56,596 --> 00:22:58,156
because we may not return too hard.

306
00:22:59,256 --> 00:23:02,636
And so I actually think that's a better...

307
00:23:02,636 --> 00:23:07,296
It seems like you guys are quite aligned.

308
00:23:08,416 --> 00:23:10,576
It's quite interesting that he showed back,

309
00:23:11,036 --> 00:23:14,696
you know, kind of got back on the horn to kind of chime in on this.

310
00:23:15,476 --> 00:23:18,876
I just don't like the idea, though, of like, we know you're...

311
00:23:18,876 --> 00:23:24,316
it's like it's acknowledgement we know you're doing things that i don't want to frame it as we

312
00:23:24,316 --> 00:23:28,796
don't want you to do but we know we you're doing things that are let's just call it garbage so like

313
00:23:29,356 --> 00:23:35,676
we built you a huge garbage pail and i just find that they're still gonna put it in the places you

314
00:23:35,676 --> 00:23:40,716
don't want i i think it's just like they'll go into the garbage pile plus all the places you

315
00:23:40,716 --> 00:23:46,636
still don't want i don't think it prevents or changes incentives that much what do you think

316
00:23:46,636 --> 00:24:03,836
Yeah, a lot of the debate tends to be like, yes, you center around, it centers around the child porn dynamic because that's the main thing that everyone agrees is bad.

317
00:24:03,836 --> 00:24:08,876
But what's getting caught in the cross is differentiate as to what's good, what's garbage, what's not.

318
00:24:08,876 --> 00:24:21,036
And the point of Freedom Tech is to not have to make people, like not give anyone the power to choose what is good and what is bad.

319
00:24:21,256 --> 00:24:29,396
So I don't necessarily know what the opportune limit should be or where the other things can be stored in Bitcoin.

320
00:24:29,396 --> 00:24:36,656
But my base case is when you say we agree something's bad or we think something's garbage, I ask who.

321
00:24:36,656 --> 00:24:40,016
And I don't think anyone has the right to be that who.

322
00:24:41,056 --> 00:24:41,956
I hear you.

323
00:24:42,116 --> 00:24:42,296
All right.

324
00:24:42,416 --> 00:24:44,616
The only, my last final note on this is though,

325
00:24:45,156 --> 00:24:48,216
I don't want more bells and whistles necessarily on Bitcoin

326
00:24:48,216 --> 00:24:50,436
unless it's more privacy and security.

327
00:24:52,216 --> 00:24:54,676
You know, I don't want it to be like Ethereum

328
00:24:54,676 --> 00:24:58,996
or, you know, necessarily like anything in that direction.

329
00:24:59,096 --> 00:25:00,976
Like I just want it to be great money

330
00:25:00,976 --> 00:25:02,816
and separate money from state.

331
00:25:02,976 --> 00:25:03,376
That's.

332
00:25:04,376 --> 00:25:04,856
Yeah.

333
00:25:04,856 --> 00:25:12,516
I think the core principle of Bitcoin are sure that there's personal sovereignty, make sure there's 21 million coins.

334
00:25:12,936 --> 00:25:18,456
And those are the two that can't be infringed upon.

335
00:25:19,936 --> 00:25:21,916
But the rest is a gray area.

336
00:25:22,696 --> 00:25:32,576
And if, you know, it's, I don't know, there's a lot that's just out of our hands and can't be, like, we can't really influence.

337
00:25:32,576 --> 00:25:37,136
And this is, I guess there's like a developer class that has influence over it.

338
00:25:37,136 --> 00:25:44,576
And, you know, Bitcoiners can vote with their nodes and vote with their voices and everything.

339
00:25:44,956 --> 00:25:55,736
But ultimately, I think a lot of what Andreas Antonopoulos says there is just that there's going to be a war to control developers in Bitcoin.

340
00:25:55,736 --> 00:26:15,456
And there needs to be talk now about how to deal with any changes in the future and how just because like as these nation states start buying Bitcoin and building Bitcoin reserves, they're going to absolutely influence the developers more if they're not already.

341
00:26:15,456 --> 00:26:31,096
And so I don't think that this debate is that worthwhile outside of the sense that it's very important framing for future debates on topics like privacy and resilience.

342
00:26:32,276 --> 00:26:34,916
All great points. All right, let's move on to the next one here.

343
00:26:35,556 --> 00:26:36,936
The whale power struggle.

344
00:26:36,936 --> 00:26:44,296
So a mysterious whale opened an $87.6 million short, three times short on BTC.

345
00:26:44,296 --> 00:26:51,276
and meanwhile others all held huge longs is this contrarian hedging by us by a smart money or a

346
00:26:51,276 --> 00:26:55,896
loaded bet that bitcoin can't break higher how do these multi-million shorts shape the crypto

347
00:26:55,896 --> 00:27:03,836
battleground do you even care ben is this current this is current he's currently got an 87

348
00:27:03,836 --> 00:27:09,076
hyperliquid this is whatever hyperliquid is we monitor this stuff and someone wrote about this

349
00:27:09,076 --> 00:27:15,356
particular trade i mean you see these dead bodies fly by all the time in the the wrecked bot on

350
00:27:15,356 --> 00:27:21,796
roster um i i don't know that's a lot of money but ultimately like there's there's huge bets either

351
00:27:21,796 --> 00:27:27,516
way this person could be hedged um on a different platform sure no i don't think this is constant

352
00:27:27,516 --> 00:27:31,516
the numbers are going to keep getting bigger and uh people are going to get wrecked losing money

353
00:27:31,516 --> 00:27:35,556
and uh in this situation it seems like one or the other is going to get wrecked so

354
00:27:35,556 --> 00:27:38,896
So do you pay attention to these whales?

355
00:27:38,896 --> 00:27:39,796
Do I?

356
00:27:39,796 --> 00:27:52,692
No I don really care about this I don trade So I think it interesting though and I think it my mind will get like a little fixated if someone makes one of these huge trades and it comes in within eight minutes of it happening

357
00:27:53,152 --> 00:27:55,472
And it's just because you could see the tape.

358
00:27:55,692 --> 00:27:57,332
And it's just something to kind of noodle on.

359
00:27:57,472 --> 00:27:59,072
But ultimately, I don't care at all.

360
00:28:00,092 --> 00:28:03,932
That's where I get interested is when it's right before a big move to that.

361
00:28:04,312 --> 00:28:08,312
But at the same time, yeah, there's probably a million that we just don't even know about

362
00:28:08,312 --> 00:28:12,392
because the move didn't happen or they got wrecked in the wrong direction.

363
00:28:12,392 --> 00:28:14,812
And we said, yeah, rough.

364
00:28:14,872 --> 00:28:15,912
You shouldn't have shorted Bitcoin.

365
00:28:16,172 --> 00:28:17,512
So I don't know.

366
00:28:17,552 --> 00:28:20,892
It's going to get more and more corrupt as the people on the inside

367
00:28:20,892 --> 00:28:23,532
of the money printer dials start wanting to buy Bitcoin.

368
00:28:24,612 --> 00:28:25,692
Yeah, I hear you.

369
00:28:25,832 --> 00:28:27,372
All right, let's get on to the next one here.

370
00:28:29,272 --> 00:28:30,732
Strategy pauses their buying.

371
00:28:30,732 --> 00:28:33,272
After six consecutive weeks of purchases,

372
00:28:33,572 --> 00:28:36,292
MicroStrategy announced it will not buy more Bitcoin this week.

373
00:28:36,292 --> 00:28:40,592
is this a momentary breather or a sign that corporate buying is slowing and

374
00:28:40,592 --> 00:28:42,112
who will fill that demand vacuum?

375
00:28:43,352 --> 00:28:43,872
Man,

376
00:28:43,932 --> 00:28:48,512
it seems like corporate buying is at a serious nadir.

377
00:28:48,792 --> 00:28:52,132
They've pretty gotten wrecked over this past year.

378
00:28:52,992 --> 00:28:54,352
So that's wild to see,

379
00:28:54,432 --> 00:28:57,612
especially like I was having conversations with people like just expecting,

380
00:28:58,012 --> 00:28:58,252
you know,

381
00:28:58,452 --> 00:28:58,852
Oh yeah.

382
00:28:58,912 --> 00:28:59,432
In the,

383
00:28:59,432 --> 00:29:04,152
the Bitcoin treasury companies haven't even been really started buying.

384
00:29:04,152 --> 00:29:19,472
It turns out that was the peak of them by back. I bet there's a lot of just volatility that they needed to have a little bit of Bitcoin upside they needed to have and they'll get reinvigorated again. But I think the the polish is is a bit rubbed off.

385
00:29:19,472 --> 00:29:28,092
yeah i hear you i think you know i can't i can't help but wonder if it was insiders or ogs

386
00:29:28,092 --> 00:29:34,712
funding the treasury companies to get their liquidity around 100 quay okay the the weird

387
00:29:34,712 --> 00:29:40,792
thing about microtrategie not buying this week is uh what i want to hear what paul says it's uh

388
00:29:40,792 --> 00:29:46,912
and thanks for uh look it's paul tarantino okay guys you know we've got ben justin here but like

389
00:29:46,912 --> 00:29:54,212
Like, you know, the only thing I can I note about strategy pausing their buying after six consecutive weeks is like, do they just not want to buy the lows?

390
00:29:55,072 --> 00:29:56,632
Do they only buy tops?

391
00:29:56,772 --> 00:30:00,192
Like, I thought they were just going to buy consistently instead of only tops.

392
00:30:00,192 --> 00:30:06,432
And like you would think they're, you know, the shareholders would want to buy more lows.

393
00:30:06,712 --> 00:30:08,412
So, Paul, what do you note here?

394
00:30:08,412 --> 00:30:19,152
My only note is that I think there's, I guess, a lot of analysis maybe or reanalyzing their strategy in the face of what MSCI is saying.

395
00:30:20,212 --> 00:30:36,552
They're looking at changing the, I don't know if it's a change of the rules or applying the rules that they've previously applied to what they consider just holding companies or companies that just make investments.

396
00:30:36,552 --> 00:30:47,992
And if they're starting to view strategy as having 50% or more of the value of the company just held in Bitcoin, then they might eliminate them from the MSCI index.

397
00:30:48,072 --> 00:30:51,732
And if that happens, you could see other indices follow that.

398
00:30:52,592 --> 00:31:01,512
That could change a lot of the passive flows that might change the structure of strategies game plan.

399
00:31:01,512 --> 00:31:06,772
And so maybe a pause is prudent in order to reevaluate.

400
00:31:07,572 --> 00:31:26,952
Do you think this is beyond sort of an attack around sort of MNAP valuation and more about, you know, eliminating or just deterring or just ruining MicroStrategy's 10%, 12% products because Wall Street, JP Morgan doesn't offer anything like that?

401
00:31:27,432 --> 00:31:27,672
Right.

402
00:31:27,752 --> 00:31:30,492
No, I can't rule that out.

403
00:31:30,492 --> 00:31:39,092
You know, I mean, Wall Street is great at punishing you if if they're not getting what they want or you're doing something they don't like.

404
00:31:39,192 --> 00:31:42,312
I mean, Bitcoin was punished for over a decade. Right.

405
00:31:42,752 --> 00:31:48,572
Because we're considered a threat to the traditional financial system.

406
00:31:48,572 --> 00:31:54,492
So I could see that. I mean, it's there was a lot of rhetoric back and forth.

407
00:31:54,492 --> 00:32:03,212
I saw on Twitter about, you know, that, oh, JP Morgan didn't really short MicroStrategy,

408
00:32:03,532 --> 00:32:09,052
but they had bought a lot of puts. And prior to buying those puts, they had sold a bunch of shares.

409
00:32:09,692 --> 00:32:18,852
And so if anything, this looks like they knew this problem with MSCI was coming. So they unloaded,

410
00:32:18,852 --> 00:32:28,272
They took an additional, they bought put, so they didn't actually short the stock, but they are benefiting from downward pressure on the stock.

411
00:32:28,632 --> 00:32:33,172
So look at these companies know stuff long before we do.

412
00:32:33,712 --> 00:32:38,972
And I think JP Morgan took advantage of it, or at least their traders did.

413
00:32:39,112 --> 00:32:42,672
Not that Jamie Dimon had any awareness at all about any of this stuff.

414
00:32:42,672 --> 00:32:50,132
But yeah, I just it wouldn't surprise me that when price gets to a certain level, they all compiling back in.

415
00:32:51,732 --> 00:32:53,772
Yeah. All right. Let's move on to the next one here.

416
00:32:53,812 --> 00:32:55,152
You make a lot of great points there.

417
00:32:55,192 --> 00:32:57,612
The death cross warning that we just went through.

418
00:32:57,712 --> 00:33:02,632
Bitcoin's 50 day moving average, moving average just crossed below its 200 day moving average.

419
00:33:02,952 --> 00:33:04,112
The dreaded death cross.

420
00:33:04,772 --> 00:33:07,852
Is this a harbinger of doom or an overhyped signal?

421
00:33:08,532 --> 00:33:12,092
Historically, have savvy traders seen this as a buy queue instead?

422
00:33:12,672 --> 00:33:17,932
What do you think, Paul?

423
00:33:18,672 --> 00:33:26,612
Well, look at death crosses in bull markets have oftentimes been quickly reversed.

424
00:33:27,952 --> 00:33:30,312
Death crosses in a bear market.

425
00:33:31,312 --> 00:33:37,332
If we truly have crossed into a bear market, then there's probably significantly more downside.

426
00:33:37,332 --> 00:33:43,572
So it kind of depends on your view of the next few months.

427
00:33:44,112 --> 00:33:49,112
I mean, I'm kind of leaning towards the bear market scenario here.

428
00:33:49,572 --> 00:33:54,892
I could see a relief rally in the meantime, but I'm leaning towards further downside.

429
00:33:56,132 --> 00:34:04,092
But that's coming from a guy who doesn't trade, who doesn't analyze charts very well, has never been successful at trading.

430
00:34:04,092 --> 00:34:11,692
uh so i just purely look at this as an opportunity to start buying uh sats at cheaper prices and the

431
00:34:11,692 --> 00:34:17,452
lower it goes the more i get every time i buy and that makes me happy yeah i mean how can you not

432
00:34:17,452 --> 00:34:22,512
see this as legendary entry point but doesn't you know mean timing i mean is it six months is it six

433
00:34:22,512 --> 00:34:28,572
weeks is six years i mean my crystal yeah right my crystal ball says it's it's at least three to

434
00:34:28,572 --> 00:34:35,692
six months. Probably not as deep as previous bear markets because we didn't go as high.

435
00:34:36,832 --> 00:34:45,732
But I mean, anywhere between 80 and 40, I'm stacking as hard as humanly possible.

436
00:34:46,672 --> 00:34:47,672
Any thoughts here, Ben?

437
00:34:48,592 --> 00:34:54,132
Yeah, I'm not really expecting to go too much lower. I've seen a number of metrics comparing

438
00:34:54,132 --> 00:35:03,912
the liquidations and the capitulation we had over the last month to the 2022 bottom and the

439
00:35:03,912 --> 00:35:11,432
COVID crash. And that makes me think that the sentiment has happened in the market. Now,

440
00:35:11,492 --> 00:35:17,352
I'm not expecting us to start ripping back up. I do kind of expect a bit of potentially a dead

441
00:35:17,352 --> 00:35:25,012
bounce idea with just like the language coming from the Trump administration is like very positive,

442
00:35:25,252 --> 00:35:31,492
very, very pro liquidity. But will that liquidity actually come? I think that we might see a top

443
00:35:31,492 --> 00:35:35,732
when people start realizing that that's not going to come until maybe early next year,

444
00:35:35,812 --> 00:35:39,932
mid next year, when they actually start gearing up to print money for midterms.

445
00:35:40,912 --> 00:35:44,972
The only thing I can say now is with everyone getting so bearish, it kind of makes me bullish.

446
00:35:44,972 --> 00:35:47,292
All right, let's move on to the next one here. There's a great clip coming up.

447
00:35:48,572 --> 00:35:54,332
I know you got a lot of thoughts on Bitcoin. Can you give us your, let's say your latest view and

448
00:35:54,332 --> 00:35:59,052
your criticisms on the asset? Well, I think the most important thing to understand is that Bitcoin

449
00:35:59,052 --> 00:36:04,012
has marketed itself as multiple different things to try to appeal to investors at various points

450
00:36:04,012 --> 00:36:08,092
in time. The initial implementation under the Satoshi white paper was a peer-to-peer payment

451
00:36:08,092 --> 00:36:13,372
system. The idea being that our payment systems, the rails of the payment systems, ultimately depend

452
00:36:13,372 --> 00:36:18,252
on the banking system. And so by moving to a distributed ledger and a peer-to-peer system,

453
00:36:18,252 --> 00:36:23,852
we'd be able to get banks out of the system. That's been a total failure. There are almost no

454
00:36:23,852 --> 00:36:29,212
real transactions that are occurring in Bitcoin. We have tons of transaction activity in speculative

455
00:36:29,212 --> 00:36:34,332
markets trading Bitcoin, but the actual quantity of retail transactions or peer-to-peer payments

456
00:36:34,332 --> 00:36:38,492
that occur over the Bitcoin network are remarkably small. And I'm sure every Bitcoiner out there can

457
00:36:38,492 --> 00:36:43,292
tell you the anecdote of, oh, I transferred $1,000 to somebody else. It's an immaterial

458
00:36:43,372 --> 00:36:49,772
component of its utilization. The second component is you have to understand that Bitcoin was born out

459
00:36:49,772 --> 00:36:54,812
of a philosophy coming from the global financial crisis, the crisis that was created by banks, by

460
00:36:54,812 --> 00:37:00,312
the overextension of credit. The banking system ultimately depends on credit. We talk about the

461
00:37:00,312 --> 00:37:04,952
expansion of the money supply, that money printing is occurring, et cetera. There's two types of money

462
00:37:04,952 --> 00:37:08,272
printing. There's money printing that comes from the government in which they largely are trying

463
00:37:08,272 --> 00:37:13,292
to smooth over mistakes that have been made. We make a mistake around COVID. We need a whole

464
00:37:13,292 --> 00:37:17,592
bunch of money to pay people so that they don't starve to death when we shut down the economy.

465
00:37:17,932 --> 00:37:23,292
We make a mistake when we decide that the housing market is extraordinarily robust and can

466
00:37:23,292 --> 00:37:28,392
accommodate any amount of credit that has been extended. As that credit defaults, it ultimately

467
00:37:28,392 --> 00:37:32,892
shrinks the collateral that's available, destroys wealth that people believe that they have. They

468
00:37:32,892 --> 00:37:37,012
shrink their spending in response to it. That means other business models now start to fail,

469
00:37:37,232 --> 00:37:42,612
and the government basically creates a do-over by printing money. The more frequent type of

470
00:37:42,612 --> 00:37:46,372
printing money is the extension of credit. You go to the bank and you say, hey, I'd like a loan for

471
00:37:46,372 --> 00:37:50,672
$1,000. They give you $1,000. They didn't actually take the money out of somebody else's account.

472
00:37:50,832 --> 00:37:56,392
They simply created a new account for you called your checking account that has $1,000 in it because

473
00:37:56,392 --> 00:38:03,172
you've been approved for this loan. That expansion is totally normal and it has a credit function

474
00:38:03,172 --> 00:38:08,372
associated with it. But Bitcoin destroys the ability to do that because it was intentionally

475
00:38:08,372 --> 00:38:14,232
designed to skip the banking system. And so it is effectively just a monetary system where what

476
00:38:14,232 --> 00:38:19,572
you're really seeing is Bitcoin is effectively the tokens that are paid to the accounting firms that

477
00:38:19,572 --> 00:38:24,532
keep the blockchain in order. That's really every Bitcoin that's out there is basically a payment

478
00:38:24,532 --> 00:38:31,052
to Deloitte and Touche, right? We're going to continue to do the accounting for this. In exchange

479
00:38:31,052 --> 00:38:36,932
for that, you're going to give us a shrinking share of new coins. Because you can't extend

480
00:38:36,932 --> 00:38:42,432
credit in that framework, right? No new money can be created. There is no capacity for mistake

481
00:38:42,432 --> 00:38:46,952
forgiveness in that type of framework. It ultimately becomes very limiting. Interest

482
00:38:46,952 --> 00:38:51,652
rates and credit spreads are just too high for a real economy framework. And that's by and large

483
00:38:51,652 --> 00:38:55,652
what we've seen. It hasn't emerged as a payment system. It hasn't emerged in any meaningful

484
00:38:55,652 --> 00:39:00,052
economic context, despite the fact that the asset has appreciated dramatically.

485
00:39:00,772 --> 00:39:06,572
The other issue is, is because we have a finite quantity of it, ultimately that means everybody

486
00:39:06,572 --> 00:39:13,992
who was born after the Bitcoin have been released finds themselves in deficit in a manner that you

487
00:39:13,992 --> 00:39:18,872
would basically be a surf living off land in the 14th century that didn't belong to you and there

488
00:39:18,872 --> 00:39:22,772
was no other land that would ever become available to you because you actually couldn't acquire it.

489
00:39:23,312 --> 00:39:28,092
It creates a deeply unequal society. This is something that I recognized very early on and

490
00:39:28,092 --> 00:39:31,292
to be clear, I was an early adopter of Bitcoin because I thought it was actually a really

491
00:39:31,292 --> 00:39:37,612
interesting idea what happens if we decide that we have private money the problem is is if you run

492
00:39:37,612 --> 00:39:44,012
through the simulation bitcoin because there is a finite quantity of tokens means that it basically

493
00:39:44,012 --> 00:39:49,692
plays like a monopoly game right there is no entity that can accommodate unlimited growth you

494
00:39:49,692 --> 00:39:53,452
can't add additional players as the game is being played in monopoly because they're just going to

495
00:39:53,452 --> 00:39:56,492
lose very quickly they don't have any other properties they don't have any of the money

496
00:39:57,052 --> 00:40:01,132
right and so they're going to be losers in that system over and over again how does every game

497
00:40:01,132 --> 00:40:07,472
of monopoly end. Someone wins. With a single winner. And that's exactly what we've seen within

498
00:40:07,472 --> 00:40:13,332
Bitcoin. We've seen increased concentration of Bitcoin in absolute defiance of what the Bitcoiners

499
00:40:13,332 --> 00:40:16,832
all argue, that it was divisible and that everybody would end up getting it, et cetera.

500
00:40:17,312 --> 00:40:21,452
What we've seen is a Gini coefficient, that measure of inequality in the Bitcoin world

501
00:40:21,452 --> 00:40:26,512
that is beyond anything we've ever seen in the real world. It's a system that ultimately collapses

502
00:40:26,512 --> 00:40:28,852
upon itself and locks people out.

503
00:40:29,052 --> 00:40:32,432
Far from democratizing access, it does the exact opposite.

504
00:40:34,512 --> 00:40:35,312
All right.

505
00:40:35,372 --> 00:40:37,552
Who wants to respond to that criticism first?

506
00:40:39,572 --> 00:40:40,692
I got something.

507
00:40:41,252 --> 00:40:45,912
The biggest thing I really heard from him is the fiat apology.

508
00:40:46,732 --> 00:40:53,532
And it's a lot of framing the onus on Bitcoin when really the onus on Bitcoin to provide

509
00:40:53,532 --> 00:40:59,092
positive outcomes when one of the biggest benefits of Bitcoin is just avoiding the negative outcomes

510
00:40:59,092 --> 00:41:08,992
of fiat. And that's realistically enough for a lot of people to get the huge benefits. And the

511
00:41:08,992 --> 00:41:15,632
ability to paper over and make mistakes constantly just decreases the danger of those mistakes and

512
00:41:15,632 --> 00:41:22,572
increases the frequency. So a lot of just not realizing the downside of fiat because he is

513
00:41:22,572 --> 00:41:30,572
in a position where he doesn't really experience the downside of it and minimizing the issues with it.

514
00:41:32,572 --> 00:41:33,572
Paul?

515
00:41:33,572 --> 00:41:48,828
I couldn hear the whole clip I only caught the comment of the Gini coefficient at the end And so my only pushback there is that you know this distribution has over the last year has been massive and persistent

516
00:41:49,828 --> 00:41:53,068
And that distribution has been consistently bought.

517
00:41:53,068 --> 00:42:07,088
So, you know, when you see the central bank at the Czech Republic buying Bitcoin, you see the massive adoption that's spreading through Africa where they don't care about volatility.

518
00:42:07,088 --> 00:42:10,828
They just they just want SaaS because it's so much better than fiat.

519
00:42:10,828 --> 00:42:21,108
Sovereign wealth, pension funds, et cetera, buying Bitcoin to help support their goals

520
00:42:21,108 --> 00:42:28,288
to create a retirement for people in the United States or to shore up the balance sheet.

521
00:42:29,208 --> 00:42:35,788
I think Bitcoin is doing exactly the opposite of what he's talking about, which is distributing

522
00:42:35,788 --> 00:42:42,688
from the few early winners to the rest of the world that's going to be holding this asset for

523
00:42:42,688 --> 00:42:50,848
the long term. I didn't hear 90% of what he said, but knowing Mike, I'm sure it's relative to,

524
00:42:50,848 --> 00:42:54,608
you know, dollars are going to go up, bonds are going to go up, and everything else is going to

525
00:42:54,608 --> 00:43:04,528
die, and you better follow the old Wall Street game. So I don't know. I don't think he really

526
00:43:04,528 --> 00:43:07,368
The future of decentralized money.

527
00:43:08,088 --> 00:43:11,628
He was trying to throw some FUD or, you know, sort of discredit Bitcoin.

528
00:43:11,808 --> 00:43:14,088
But BitPain was on X.

529
00:43:14,148 --> 00:43:21,048
He said, here is Mike Green, who famously refused to buy Bitcoin at $25 cost basis on the advice of his wife.

530
00:43:21,788 --> 00:43:27,608
Dismissing the significance of a U.S. state buying Bitcoin at $85,000 cost basis because they only bought $10 million worth.

531
00:43:28,808 --> 00:43:30,288
You know, maybe he's just salty.

532
00:43:30,628 --> 00:43:32,208
Let's move on to the next one here.

533
00:43:32,888 --> 00:43:33,988
We got China.

534
00:43:33,988 --> 00:43:36,268
China's got a mining comeback here.

535
00:43:36,368 --> 00:43:41,108
They quietly reclaimed 14% of global Bitcoin hash power in October.

536
00:43:41,928 --> 00:43:45,248
Has the mining dragon truly awakened from its 2021 ban?

537
00:43:45,348 --> 00:43:49,888
And will cheap Chinese power catapult the next bull cycle?

538
00:43:53,848 --> 00:43:55,988
Did they take it back?

539
00:43:55,988 --> 00:43:57,008
Did they take it back?

540
00:43:57,128 --> 00:43:59,608
Or did they just finally disclose that they never got rid of it?

541
00:44:01,608 --> 00:44:03,968
I guess they are rising hash power.

542
00:44:03,988 --> 00:44:07,268
so I think they sort of reclaimed 14%

543
00:44:07,268 --> 00:44:09,308
I don't know how high they were

544
00:44:09,308 --> 00:44:11,008
prior I know there was around

545
00:44:11,008 --> 00:44:12,488
10% not too

546
00:44:12,488 --> 00:44:15,148
long ago so maybe it's about a 4%

547
00:44:15,148 --> 00:44:15,888
increase

548
00:44:15,888 --> 00:44:19,108
40% on their own

549
00:44:19,108 --> 00:44:19,328
turf

550
00:44:19,328 --> 00:44:22,088
that's good

551
00:44:22,088 --> 00:44:24,908
I think it's good for Bitcoin

552
00:44:24,908 --> 00:44:27,148
the global hash wars are good

553
00:44:27,148 --> 00:44:27,928
for Bitcoin right

554
00:44:27,928 --> 00:44:31,208
yeah my first instinct was really

555
00:44:31,208 --> 00:44:33,008
did it ever really disappear

556
00:44:33,008 --> 00:44:34,668
Yeah, I think they just moved it around.

557
00:44:36,068 --> 00:44:47,208
But what a resource, the electricity in China that is not being used for Bitcoin.

558
00:44:48,208 --> 00:44:50,768
That is a sleeping dragon to awake.

559
00:44:51,468 --> 00:44:54,248
And our enemies are going to get Bitcoin.

560
00:44:54,428 --> 00:44:56,588
And I don't necessarily want China to get a ton of Bitcoin.

561
00:44:56,588 --> 00:45:07,688
But I think that Bitcoin ends up getting into every society, every person, and potentially like awakening the desires for freedom.

562
00:45:08,328 --> 00:45:10,548
Who knows if that ever gets to Chinese people.

563
00:45:11,448 --> 00:45:19,028
But I don't want to say the more Bitcoin matter, but to that, the more Bitcoin everywhere.

564
00:45:19,208 --> 00:45:24,608
And there's so much just there's so much power being developed in China.

565
00:45:26,588 --> 00:45:31,948
It's going to be interesting when, yeah, their damn power, but when nuclear power gets focused on Bitcoin mining.

566
00:45:32,388 --> 00:45:33,588
All right, let's jump to the next one here.

567
00:45:33,748 --> 00:45:46,088
Oh, Italy opens a pathway, you know, for residency by you can you can now Italy now grants investor visas for 250,000 stake in a Bitcoin focused startup.

568
00:45:46,088 --> 00:45:51,688
And that's euros. Does this mark Europe's first real experiment in tying national residency rights to Bitcoin exposure?

569
00:45:52,148 --> 00:45:54,748
We're just sort of a clever arbitrage on immigration law.

570
00:45:56,588 --> 00:46:03,728
To me, it just seems like it's a new twist on an old visa program that they've had.

571
00:46:04,488 --> 00:46:14,668
So maybe they attract some people that want to get exposure to Bitcoin and have access to Italy and the EU at large.

572
00:46:14,668 --> 00:46:23,748
But I mean, as an American, I don't know how attracted this would be because you're going to be taxed on your global income anyways.

573
00:46:24,548 --> 00:46:27,548
Maybe it makes a lot more sense for people from other countries.

574
00:46:29,368 --> 00:46:29,828
I don't know.

575
00:46:29,988 --> 00:46:32,468
It just seems, you know, I mean, it's great.

576
00:46:32,688 --> 00:46:33,768
I don't think, don't get me wrong.

577
00:46:33,888 --> 00:46:38,368
I mean, all the more, the more investment or the more reasons to invest in Bitcoin, the better.

578
00:46:39,468 --> 00:46:43,028
But didn't seem to be like a game changer from where I'm coming from.

579
00:46:43,988 --> 00:46:44,248
All right.

580
00:46:44,348 --> 00:46:44,488
Yeah.

581
00:46:44,668 --> 00:46:45,688
Ben, you want to hear from you?

582
00:46:46,288 --> 00:46:49,988
It seems like a nothing burger on the specifics there.

583
00:46:50,168 --> 00:46:53,668
But I imagine that there is going to be this arm race to attract Bitcoiners.

584
00:46:53,748 --> 00:46:57,308
And Italy's got some pretty nice spots to be.

585
00:46:57,588 --> 00:47:04,528
And they need to differentiate themselves from the rest of Europe, given the regulatory framework in Europe.

586
00:47:05,068 --> 00:47:07,168
So that kind of hurts them as of now.

587
00:47:07,488 --> 00:47:19,268
But I imagine that we're going to see the dissenting European states trying to attract Bitcoin wealth, despite the overarching European in that field.

588
00:47:19,268 --> 00:47:26,528
yeah i hear you all right we'll keep an eye on that they're gonna get they're gonna have to

589
00:47:26,528 --> 00:47:30,948
throw some better offers out there yeah well that's what i'm looking forward to the competition

590
00:47:30,948 --> 00:47:35,648
let's see it hopefully increases let's get to the next one i want to see the stale clip here

591
00:47:44,548 --> 00:47:47,928
i don't hear it yeah we don't have any sound sorry i messed up

592
00:47:47,928 --> 00:47:55,528
all right well uh sailor is floating the idea of digital credit as the new fixed income

593
00:47:56,728 --> 00:48:00,728
what do you think paul do you think this is going to stick especially with all the sort

594
00:48:00,728 --> 00:48:09,128
of trouble they're having now with the mcsi yeah let's talk in six months let's see let's see if it

595
00:48:09,128 --> 00:48:15,368
sticks i mean look at them look at them oh sorry ben go ahead

596
00:48:17,928 --> 00:48:22,088
just need to restore some reputation to that because ever since they launched all those it's

597
00:48:22,088 --> 00:48:26,888
been pretty down um so they need to to show that they can recover in that regard before

598
00:48:26,888 --> 00:48:35,928
anyone starts taking that seriously well uh how much does strategy need you know bitcoin price to

599
00:48:35,928 --> 00:48:44,408
pump for this to all play out you know yeah more short term i i forget who did it on x but there

600
00:48:44,408 --> 00:48:53,548
there was a pretty good analysis, right? As to attract enough buyers into, I believe it's stretch,

601
00:48:54,348 --> 00:49:00,188
they've got to keep raising interest rates. And if they keep it raising the interest rate on

602
00:49:00,188 --> 00:49:07,408
stretch into a falling Bitcoin price, you can get to a point where it looks pretty grim,

603
00:49:08,188 --> 00:49:13,848
regardless of the fact that they don't have a lot of outstanding debt, right? So

604
00:49:13,848 --> 00:49:28,248
So I think, you know, price, the price of Bitcoin going up is directly tied to strategies, long term ability to keep these perpetual credit offerings in good standing.

605
00:49:29,568 --> 00:49:39,028
Because it would, you know, right now, right, he raises the interest rate to attract more interest in that security.

606
00:49:39,028 --> 00:49:42,708
that's all well and fine but if you get if he gets to the point where he has to

607
00:49:43,588 --> 00:49:49,588
pull some of those triggers to lower the interest rate change the terms um then you just you could

608
00:49:49,588 --> 00:49:56,228
kill the reputation of that security and is at any point is he not not forced to sell like liquidate

609
00:49:56,228 --> 00:50:01,828
but to sell a little bit of bitcoin to cover either expenses or show the market that he's he's

610
00:50:01,828 --> 00:50:08,948
sort of going to like you know sort of uh provide some i mean sure there's there's there's things

611
00:50:08,948 --> 00:50:15,108
that could go wrong in the global economy the financial sector right if you can't borrow at a

612
00:50:15,108 --> 00:50:21,108
at a cheap rate if you can't issue the credit at lower rates and get any interest it's um

613
00:50:22,548 --> 00:50:27,028
you know you know there's everything's a possibility in these markets especially going

614
00:50:27,028 --> 00:50:33,708
into the type of environment where you're basically having some sort of reset on the

615
00:50:33,708 --> 00:50:36,288
debt of the United States, whether you like it or not.

616
00:50:37,628 --> 00:50:38,408
So we'll see.

617
00:50:39,628 --> 00:50:43,208
All the time strategy bought and everyone said, look, price didn't go up.

618
00:50:43,888 --> 00:50:48,528
And I wonder how much, you know, if strategy sold, you know, how much actual impact it

619
00:50:48,528 --> 00:50:52,028
would have on the market, you know, if they didn't tell anyone and they were selling.

620
00:50:52,448 --> 00:50:54,308
But let's say they told people they were selling.

621
00:50:54,308 --> 00:50:57,288
I bet market sentiment would turn dramatically.

622
00:50:58,848 --> 00:50:59,928
I think so too.

623
00:51:00,168 --> 00:51:02,308
I mean, you could get into a position where,

624
00:51:02,888 --> 00:51:06,508
I mean, this is one of the triggers

625
00:51:06,508 --> 00:51:08,688
or one of the fears that could really

626
00:51:08,688 --> 00:51:11,448
turn this bear market on

627
00:51:11,448 --> 00:51:16,548
and maybe even signal the bottom, right?

628
00:51:16,988 --> 00:51:20,748
Every bottom of every bear market we've had,

629
00:51:20,748 --> 00:51:23,748
there's been a sacred cow that's been slaughtered.

630
00:51:24,308 --> 00:51:30,508
I hope it's not strategy because I do believe in it, that he's trying to do something really cool.

631
00:51:31,308 --> 00:51:36,988
But somebody is going to get hurt and that will be the sign that it's over.

632
00:51:37,188 --> 00:51:41,168
Everyone will be petrified and think Bitcoin is dead finally again.

633
00:51:41,168 --> 00:51:54,168
But, yeah, I mean, you can see a potential path that would lead to some catastrophic outcomes.

634
00:51:55,608 --> 00:51:57,528
At least that's the way I think about it.

635
00:51:58,968 --> 00:52:03,688
A better perspective is about 180 degrees from where it is now in a year's time.

636
00:52:06,108 --> 00:52:10,808
Okay, let's say in a year's time, Bitcoin is $145,000.

637
00:52:11,168 --> 00:52:18,528
right and um let's say that's october and then come january it's back down to

638
00:52:19,408 --> 00:52:26,608
one 101 are we having the same conversation or are they just going to have the same balance sheet

639
00:52:26,608 --> 00:52:33,648
just times 0.25 you know what i mean or is it going to be in a different place for them completely

640
00:52:33,648 --> 00:52:39,408
like at what point do they sort of break out of like what happens to bitcoin price downward in the

641
00:52:39,408 --> 00:52:48,068
next six months? And is that a threat to strategy? Well, they need the volatility, correct? They can

642
00:52:48,068 --> 00:52:55,468
win up or down. It's obviously more beneficial for them to be up. But if we're talking about,

643
00:52:55,668 --> 00:53:02,328
yeah, another year of up sideways to 150 for round numbers and then back down to 100, I'm seeing

644
00:53:02,328 --> 00:53:08,648
another consolidation event and another higher low that ultimately ends up being extremely bullish

645
00:53:08,648 --> 00:53:16,728
in the long term. If that happens in the backdrop of the amount of money printing that I expect

646
00:53:17,848 --> 00:53:25,128
over 2026 that are concerning and I would expect gold to be on some insane bull run,

647
00:53:25,128 --> 00:53:34,008
stealing all that capital. But the scenario you lined out is painful because we hope for more,

648
00:53:34,008 --> 00:53:40,588
We expect more. And this past year has been a bit frustrating, but it's ultimately a pretty damn bullish setup.

649
00:53:42,428 --> 00:53:45,448
Yeah, I mean, it couldn't be more bullish, this setup.

650
00:53:45,708 --> 00:53:47,008
All right, let's move on to the next one.

651
00:53:47,308 --> 00:53:49,308
So a little bit of a continuation of the thread.

652
00:53:49,448 --> 00:53:51,408
So I don't know if you guys just want to bury this, move on.

653
00:53:51,868 --> 00:53:54,088
But the MicroStrategy bear rumor is continuing the thread.

654
00:53:54,228 --> 00:53:58,468
Did JP Morgan actually short MSTR to shake out Bitcoin supporters?

655
00:53:58,648 --> 00:54:00,948
Or is that viral tweet, all hat and no cattle?

656
00:54:00,948 --> 00:54:04,188
Is MSCR being targeted by bad actors spreading FUD?

657
00:54:05,728 --> 00:54:08,068
I don't know if it's bad actors.

658
00:54:08,248 --> 00:54:13,948
I think there's a bigger question for all these treasury companies, which is...

659
00:54:15,028 --> 00:54:16,328
Are they just closed-in funds?

660
00:54:17,108 --> 00:54:17,368
Right.

661
00:54:17,468 --> 00:54:26,188
If your entire business or the vast majority of your business, in MSCI's case, right, it's more than 50% of your business,

662
00:54:26,188 --> 00:54:32,108
is based on just holding bitcoin and relying on multiples on your mnav to be able to sell shares

663
00:54:32,108 --> 00:54:39,308
to be able to buy more bitcoin that accretive dilution if that's your if that's your business

664
00:54:39,308 --> 00:54:45,948
model then i think you're going to see these treasury companies just compressed to one mnav

665
00:54:46,828 --> 00:54:52,188
and then you have to figure out how do you run this business model if your mnav's one

666
00:54:52,188 --> 00:55:00,108
all the time right or the volatility above and below one is tiny right yeah um and then and then

667
00:55:01,788 --> 00:55:07,468
what what's your true value what would i what now i think sailor's got some really interesting stuff

668
00:55:07,468 --> 00:55:14,028
going on with all of his credit offerings um and i think those credit offerings are really really

669
00:55:14,028 --> 00:55:21,628
cool and and brilliant um i just don't we'll just have to see how the market takes it right and um

670
00:55:22,188 --> 00:55:27,828
I think the market needs to see that these credit facilities are going to be there,

671
00:55:28,628 --> 00:55:32,988
these securities are going to be there through thick and thin.

672
00:55:33,024 --> 00:55:39,284
And if he makes it through a bear market cycle, then I think they'll come piling right into it.

673
00:55:40,924 --> 00:55:41,644
All right.

674
00:55:41,884 --> 00:55:42,364
Let's see.

675
00:55:42,604 --> 00:55:42,804
All right.

676
00:55:42,824 --> 00:55:45,064
Let's go to the last topic here on El Salvador.

677
00:55:46,344 --> 00:55:47,024
All right.

678
00:55:47,264 --> 00:55:48,584
IMF versus Bitcoin.

679
00:55:48,704 --> 00:55:53,644
The IMF warns El Salvador over its Bitcoin laws, but Bukele keeps buying dips, apparently.

680
00:55:54,284 --> 00:55:59,664
Is this friction highlighting a currency sovereignty battle or just normalizing crypto in the face of fiat instability?

681
00:55:59,664 --> 00:56:14,504
thoughts uh well i don't know if he's buying bitcoin uh there's been some you know is he

682
00:56:14,504 --> 00:56:22,024
moving it around uh he's buying it cedric he's buying bitcoin and how much the finger

683
00:56:22,024 --> 00:56:28,044
i don't know he's working with the imf sure and he's buying bitcoin

684
00:56:28,044 --> 00:56:37,664
anyone who's gone against the IMF no one who's gone so let's say he keeps paying the IMF

685
00:56:37,664 --> 00:56:43,184
and he keeps behind bitcoin what are they going to do are they going to be like

686
00:56:43,184 --> 00:56:49,944
we're just going to default on you even though you're paying your your debt well he's risking

687
00:56:49,944 --> 00:56:55,044
future financing I mean they are it's quite a lifeline they're giving him whether it's

688
00:56:55,044 --> 00:56:59,144
predatory or not. I mean, they're talking several billions of dollars, tens of billions of dollars.

689
00:57:00,284 --> 00:57:03,384
Who's the biggest contributor to the IMF?

690
00:57:04,404 --> 00:57:07,484
Who's the biggest contributor? The states.

691
00:57:08,404 --> 00:57:08,604
Yeah.

692
00:57:09,344 --> 00:57:12,584
Yeah. So, I mean, you would think...

693
00:57:12,584 --> 00:57:14,904
Who are the biggest participants in El Salvador?

694
00:57:14,904 --> 00:57:16,664
You would think he's protected by the states.

695
00:57:17,224 --> 00:57:19,804
He's said, yeah, no, Tether's headquartered there.

696
00:57:20,704 --> 00:57:23,004
I mean, it seems like a closed loop there.

697
00:57:23,004 --> 00:57:24,884
It's all good. El Salvador's going to be

698
00:57:24,884 --> 00:57:29,884
I saw they had a picture with Giacomo Zuccomo.

699
00:57:30,404 --> 00:57:33,784
He handed Bukele a bottle of rum called,

700
00:57:34,004 --> 00:57:36,464
he gifted him a bottle of rum called Dictator.

701
00:57:39,164 --> 00:57:40,544
Yes, yes.

702
00:57:40,624 --> 00:57:44,824
I mean, he's running the MAGA playbook

703
00:57:44,824 --> 00:57:46,964
to see if Trump can run for a third term.

704
00:57:46,964 --> 00:57:49,244
And you think he's truly independent?

705
00:57:51,104 --> 00:57:53,504
Do I think Bukele's truly independent?

706
00:57:53,504 --> 00:57:58,064
Yeah, and not protected by the states if he's going to go against the IMF here.

707
00:57:58,584 --> 00:58:00,584
Oh, no, I think he's.

708
00:58:01,484 --> 00:58:02,964
Have you ever seen anyone?

709
00:58:03,544 --> 00:58:06,044
Well, I think he has the blessing of the United States.

710
00:58:06,664 --> 00:58:09,664
I wouldn't say protected, but I think he's he's been blessed.

711
00:58:10,524 --> 00:58:11,124
I think so.

712
00:58:11,124 --> 00:58:17,644
Just like when Tether came out of those congressional hearings and, you know, they were they were blessed.

713
00:58:18,384 --> 00:58:19,844
Tether bought a bunch of gold, Paul.

714
00:58:19,904 --> 00:58:20,444
What do you think?

715
00:58:21,144 --> 00:58:21,564
I'm sorry.

716
00:58:22,004 --> 00:58:23,444
Tether bought a bunch of gold.

717
00:58:23,504 --> 00:58:27,504
Well, they've had gold for some time.

718
00:58:27,504 --> 00:58:28,504
Yeah.

719
00:58:28,504 --> 00:58:29,504
Yeah.

720
00:58:29,504 --> 00:58:30,504
I'll read it.

721
00:58:30,504 --> 00:58:32,504
Gold, Bitcoin, treasuries.

722
00:58:32,504 --> 00:58:43,786
But that graph that came out that was exactly that Yeah Tether brought more gold last quarter than every central bank What the fuck is up with that

723
00:58:45,166 --> 00:58:47,266
Somebody might have told them, hey, buy some gold.

724
00:58:47,306 --> 00:58:48,146
That's what you have to do.

725
00:58:49,146 --> 00:58:50,786
All right, I got another one.

726
00:58:52,386 --> 00:58:55,106
Rohan Harani says, I mean, what did people expect?

727
00:58:55,266 --> 00:58:59,726
You don't just walk into the $150 trillion fixed income cartel

728
00:58:59,726 --> 00:59:03,346
and sustainably offer 8% to 12% yields without making some enemies.

729
00:59:04,186 --> 00:59:05,826
JP Morgan is just the first domino.

730
00:59:06,466 --> 00:59:10,346
Those who've spent decades selling investors a safe 2% to 4% yield

731
00:59:10,346 --> 00:59:14,006
are not going to sit quietly while one firm shows up with a structure

732
00:59:14,006 --> 00:59:16,346
that can plausibly deliver 3% to 5% that.

733
00:59:16,906 --> 00:59:20,366
For years, anyone offering 10% was usually a DeFi casino,

734
00:59:20,966 --> 00:59:24,446
a fund about to blow up, or some risky scheme that TradFi knew

735
00:59:24,446 --> 00:59:25,726
wouldn't survive for long.

736
00:59:26,006 --> 00:59:28,346
So they were shrugged off as not a threat.

737
00:59:28,846 --> 00:59:30,046
But strategy is different.

738
00:59:30,266 --> 00:59:33,146
It's simple and it's terrifying for traditional credit issuers.

739
00:59:33,726 --> 00:59:35,806
Because here's the uncomfortable truth.

740
00:59:36,386 --> 00:59:40,846
No institution can sustainably match 8% to 12% without touching Bitcoin.

741
00:59:41,366 --> 00:59:43,586
And most of them are starting way behind the eight ball.

742
00:59:44,026 --> 00:59:47,486
So if they can't compete fairly, some are going to try competing unfairly.

743
00:59:47,826 --> 00:59:49,966
That's just how insurance systems behave.

744
00:59:50,326 --> 00:59:54,406
Strategy had a massive head start because everyone else mocked them or assumed they'd blow up.

745
00:59:54,806 --> 00:59:56,586
And there's still a ton of turbulence ahead.

746
00:59:56,706 --> 00:59:58,306
But the direction of travel is obvious.

747
00:59:58,346 --> 01:00:03,626
Bitcoin-centered digital credit will punch a giant hole straight through the fixed income market.

748
01:00:03,946 --> 01:00:07,826
Not overnight, but step-by-step in a way the old system can't keep up with.

749
01:00:09,286 --> 01:00:10,346
Interesting take.

750
01:00:10,966 --> 01:00:12,686
No, that's very well said.

751
01:00:15,586 --> 01:00:22,946
It's curious that just after listening to Jack's Monday night show,

752
01:00:22,946 --> 01:00:30,106
a lot about offering those same products like cash, interest on your cash. And since that just

753
01:00:30,106 --> 01:00:36,746
basically goes into allowing more Bitcoin loans, they can pay 6%, 7%, 8% interest on that. And

754
01:00:36,746 --> 01:00:41,206
it's curious that the two things that are being attacked during this bear market

755
01:00:41,206 --> 01:00:47,366
are the two things that are directly going after these big entrenched systems.

756
01:00:47,366 --> 01:00:54,646
yeah you you you uh challenge treasuries you're gonna have a challenge in front of you

757
01:00:54,646 --> 01:00:59,466
well they're trying to become buyers of treasuries though right i mean i don't think you can offer

758
01:00:59,466 --> 01:01:05,186
interest on sort of the stable coins unless you offer i guess it's technically bitcoin back that

759
01:01:05,186 --> 01:01:08,386
this could be interesting how this rolls out but i think you have to sort of have the treasuries

760
01:01:08,386 --> 01:01:13,026
to offer the interest yeah but i thought we were talking about interest on uh the coin

761
01:01:13,026 --> 01:01:16,546
the sailors creating right well i mean

762
01:01:18,626 --> 01:01:23,666
which are they are fighting him i mean how good of a fight do you think they could put up

763
01:01:24,706 --> 01:01:30,706
if you don't even on that pretty good they go they got a big big well i mean can they just

764
01:01:30,706 --> 01:01:36,386
delay for a year or two or like can they really set it back five ten years you know and and would

765
01:01:36,386 --> 01:01:47,628
it be in their best interest to try and do you know to sort of derail stable coins and crypto and all that or can they set strategy back i don know that they interested in derailing stable coins

766
01:01:48,188 --> 01:01:53,468
sure but can they but i think if you derail bitcoin i think you sort of

767
01:01:54,908 --> 01:01:59,148
you push back the rollout i think of stable coins and crypto and i think it's very related to bitcoin

768
01:01:59,148 --> 01:02:05,068
prices uh going up really helps the momentum of issue of rolling those other things out

769
01:02:05,068 --> 01:02:29,508
I just think that they're, I mean, I think the point of that tweet was that, look, if the entire mission of the big banks that own the central bank are to have as much liquidity as possible in the treasury market, because they are forced buyers of the treasury market.

770
01:02:29,508 --> 01:02:42,748
Right. And anything that threatens that makes their life miserable and weakens their business model.

771
01:02:42,748 --> 01:02:52,288
right so if sailor is successful at this and then it starts being copied in every major

772
01:02:52,288 --> 01:02:59,328
jurisdiction every major financial market around the world that dethrones the treasury market

773
01:02:59,328 --> 01:03:08,628
much more quickly so instead of a controlled demolition that they can steer the titanic through

774
01:03:08,628 --> 01:03:16,448
they're going to have rough seas and chaos. So I think they're going to fight it the whole time.

775
01:03:17,568 --> 01:03:22,708
Regardless of, but regardless of sailors success or not, Bitcoin is going to keep doing,

776
01:03:22,708 --> 01:03:31,608
it's what Bitcoin does. We got, we got to this point, you know, without institutions and we will

777
01:03:31,608 --> 01:03:40,168
continue. So it, you know, Bitcoin is designed to go up forever. The supply is going to be

778
01:03:40,168 --> 01:03:48,048
constantly shrinking. New buyers are emerging globally all the time. And the best that J.B.

779
01:03:48,108 --> 01:03:53,768
Morgan can do or any financial institution could do is delay the inevitable.

780
01:03:55,908 --> 01:04:01,588
Bitcoin for sure. But with MSDR, it seems like they smell the blood in the water. And if there

781
01:04:01,588 --> 01:04:09,248
was one chance to like take them out or derail what they're doing now is it but if mstr succeeds

782
01:04:09,248 --> 01:04:14,508
makes it through this low period and and really gets back shows strength and shows resilience

783
01:04:14,508 --> 01:04:23,168
it gets a lot harder to cut it out to get it out of there so um this is their operations yeah sure

784
01:04:23,168 --> 01:04:27,668
mstr was down a lot before this back in the bear market but they weren't offering these yield

785
01:04:27,668 --> 01:04:32,888
products. So it was just cute back then. Yeah, now it's something that could be existential

786
01:04:32,888 --> 01:04:40,568
risk. And it's Bitcoin really attacking the financial system head on as the best way to

787
01:04:40,568 --> 01:04:54,090
give the dividend markets I blanking on the word We were just talking about it But you know

788
01:04:54,210 --> 01:04:56,130
the players in this are interesting

789
01:04:56,130 --> 01:04:57,170
because like Lutnick,

790
01:04:57,310 --> 01:04:59,250
Canada Fitzgerald has a huge position,

791
01:04:59,430 --> 01:05:01,030
I think, in micro strategy,

792
01:05:01,150 --> 01:05:01,490
don't they?

793
01:05:02,830 --> 01:05:03,590
Yeah, I'm not sure.

794
01:05:04,610 --> 01:05:05,550
It wouldn't surprise me.

795
01:05:06,450 --> 01:05:07,370
So, all right.

796
01:05:08,050 --> 01:05:10,110
Francis, we got any questions

797
01:05:10,110 --> 01:05:13,050
or comments in the chat there?

798
01:05:13,270 --> 01:05:15,330
We got a quick comment.

799
01:05:16,730 --> 01:05:17,570
Robert Schmidt says,

800
01:05:17,630 --> 01:05:19,250
Tether made a gold stablecoin.

801
01:05:19,370 --> 01:05:20,390
That's why they bought the gold.

802
01:05:21,210 --> 01:05:21,470
True.

803
01:05:22,010 --> 01:05:22,310
True.

804
01:05:22,650 --> 01:05:23,250
Good job.

805
01:05:24,310 --> 01:05:27,010
Thanks for filling that blank in for us.

806
01:05:27,030 --> 01:05:27,670
I remember that.

807
01:05:27,890 --> 01:05:28,050
Yep.

808
01:05:28,890 --> 01:05:29,850
What do you think of that, Paul?

809
01:05:29,850 --> 01:05:30,850
You think...

810
01:05:30,850 --> 01:05:32,210
I mean, there's...

811
01:05:32,210 --> 01:05:33,850
I mean...

812
01:05:33,850 --> 01:05:36,130
Are we going to get a beef stablecoin?

813
01:05:36,130 --> 01:05:37,630
What do I think of it?

814
01:05:37,670 --> 01:05:40,930
There's been gold-backed digital tokens

815
01:05:40,930 --> 01:05:43,310
for as long as I've been in Bitcoin.

816
01:05:44,070 --> 01:05:45,690
None of them have ever taken off.

817
01:05:47,550 --> 01:05:50,010
If anybody in the world has the connections

818
01:05:50,010 --> 01:05:53,490
to make a viable gold token,

819
01:05:54,450 --> 01:05:55,230
it's Tether.

820
01:05:56,170 --> 01:05:58,130
They've got all the right connections.

821
01:05:58,850 --> 01:06:03,490
So I'm sure it's going to be a good market for them.

822
01:06:03,810 --> 01:06:06,690
But at the end of the day,

823
01:06:06,950 --> 01:06:09,570
I think at the end of the day,

824
01:06:09,570 --> 01:06:12,710
the true value of gold is the fact that it's not digital.

825
01:06:13,290 --> 01:06:14,190
And it's not dollars.

826
01:06:14,650 --> 01:06:14,990
Right.

827
01:06:15,970 --> 01:06:17,310
So it's kind of a paradox.

828
01:06:17,370 --> 01:06:22,910
Well, no, I don't believe this is a gold-backed dollar stablecoin.

829
01:06:23,170 --> 01:06:28,590
This is, I believe, and maybe this listener can correct me if I'm wrong,

830
01:06:28,650 --> 01:06:31,110
I believe it's just a gold-pegged token.

831
01:06:31,810 --> 01:06:33,550
So it fluctuates with the price.

832
01:06:33,830 --> 01:06:35,350
More like represents an ounce of gold.

833
01:06:35,350 --> 01:06:39,550
Yeah, so it's a way to trade gold easily that sits in vaults.

834
01:06:39,570 --> 01:06:40,490
sure.

835
01:06:41,210 --> 01:06:42,990
Rehypothecated also like a thousand.

836
01:06:43,630 --> 01:06:45,510
I don't know that it's rehypothecated,

837
01:06:45,650 --> 01:06:46,570
but it is,

838
01:06:46,630 --> 01:06:50,230
it is just a simple way of gold with gold sitting in vaults,

839
01:06:50,250 --> 01:06:52,990
have a digital token issue on top of them that they can be traded.

840
01:06:54,470 --> 01:06:55,110
All right,

841
01:06:55,110 --> 01:06:55,350
cool.

842
01:06:55,490 --> 01:06:55,990
Fair enough.

843
01:06:56,790 --> 01:06:57,370
All right.

844
01:06:57,390 --> 01:06:58,150
Anything else in there,

845
01:06:58,190 --> 01:06:58,510
Francis?

846
01:07:00,130 --> 01:07:01,150
That's it for tonight.

847
01:07:01,350 --> 01:07:01,730
All right,

848
01:07:01,790 --> 01:07:01,990
man.

849
01:07:01,990 --> 01:07:02,230
Well,

850
01:07:02,270 --> 01:07:04,250
this was awesome with Ben jumping in.

851
01:07:04,650 --> 01:07:04,790
Yeah.

852
01:07:04,850 --> 01:07:05,210
Thank you,

853
01:07:05,290 --> 01:07:05,470
Ben.

854
01:07:05,590 --> 01:07:06,270
Appreciate it.

855
01:07:06,850 --> 01:07:07,750
Thanks for having me.

856
01:07:07,870 --> 01:07:09,550
I'm sorry to hear you had some trouble.

857
01:07:09,570 --> 01:07:14,370
beforehand oh that's all right that's what happens when you try and drive an old truck

858
01:07:16,610 --> 01:07:21,730
well join us every tuesday uh at 8 00 pm eastern for bitcoin center my name is cedric youngelman

859
01:07:21,730 --> 01:07:26,050
this was uh ben just been jumping in and paul tarantino hopping on for the end here uh

860
01:07:27,090 --> 01:07:32,370
this is brought to you by bite federal so go bank yourself uh you know you got the bitcoin atm the

861
01:07:32,370 --> 01:07:37,970
crypto wallet and the point of sale and put that stuff in self-custody i'm looking forward to

862
01:07:37,970 --> 01:07:39,730
joining you in the shed next week, Cedric.

863
01:07:39,850 --> 01:07:41,730
All right, next week, brother. Maybe we'll have Ben call in.

864
01:07:42,110 --> 01:07:43,530
Perfect. Sounds good.

865
01:07:43,530 --> 01:07:45,450
Love to. See you guys next week. All right, guys. Thanks.

866
01:07:45,770 --> 01:07:46,090
Peace.