good evening welcome to bitcoin center i'm paul tarantino and i'm cedric young woman
where's our music said uh let me bring that up but uh how you been i've been good
what a good uh weekend working around the house
how about you uh pretty good i got the wrong music on i guess
yeah that's different that was weird that was me that was me
I was like I don't know what that is
so you're going to
Canadian
Bitcoin
conference we're going next week
I'm pretty excited for that
that's last time I went
it was pushed back six months I think this year
so what the hell
we're getting into
that's me again
all right
this is not me
I'm not on the ones and twos right now
no that's me
that's me
Francis
but I want to
bring it up I don't know if you have thoughts on this
but like Charlie Kirk
I mean just in terms of
not so much what happened that day
but just sentiment
yeah I mean
that was a really big thing
yeah
it was like a water cooler moment if you would
and everyone was talking about it,
and I feel like that's starting to die down.
People, I don't know, people,
or maybe that's not, I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I mean, that's an interesting point.
Do you, I mean, do you think that's a...
I mean, at least personally,
I can't speak for anybody else,
but personally, I felt like everything,
the story we were told in the first 24 hours
was so off whack was so out of line with what i witnessed and what i ex you know anticipated really
happened okay i feel like i'm gonna shoot bar something but um so anyways it was like it was
just like oh yeah here we go again can't believe it it's all bs doesn't make any sense doesn't add
up and now all the data that's coming out about the angle of the shoot the shot the the cleanup
of the crime scene the uh data around the the guy who was initially arrested and then the kid that
was supposedly the real shooter you know we all knew was bullshit immediately and now we're getting
the proof and so it's just like i don't i feel like i haven't even really followed it because
I've just felt like intuitively
right off the bat it was all bullshit.
Not that he didn't die, and not that his
death wasn't fucking horrible,
and not that the response of some
people celebrating it wasn't horrible, but I'm
just saying that the terms
that we were sold in regards
to his death are not adding up to me at all.
A hundred percent.
But I'm more talking about the sentiment
of people saying like, wow, I want
to change my life now.
his life meant something to me.
I don't know any of those people.
You know,
someone was inspired or turned to religion.
I think there was some of that.
You didn't see any of that?
Not in my group, no.
We have a bunch of tinfoil hat wearing
crazy fat.
Outside of your group, though, I'm saying.
I thought that was sort of more...
I don't talk to anybody else in my group.
Okay.
Do you think that then,
is it something that's going to go away?
and we're not going to find any answers
and no one's going to keep asking.
Oh, we're going to find answers,
but you're never going to get it validated.
Right.
All the answers are going to be based on
the evidence that is dug up
by independent researchers,
independent media sources,
and you're going to evaluate it
and you're going to say,
I think the highest probability case is this,
and you're going to believe that.
It's just like you're not getting any confirmation on 9-11 still today.
And that was immediate bullshit when I saw it happen when I was working at Payne Weber.
It was just like, yeah, this makes no sense.
It doesn't add up at all.
There's no way that plane took down those buildings.
What do you make of watching something that doesn't make sense that is like...
I mean, what I make of it is the same thing.
I guess this kind of stuff doesn't affect me as much anymore because I've seen it so many times
where you're just immediately lied to by the media and the government, right? Like covering up Epstein,
like not releasing the Epstein list. It's like, yeah, of course, right? It's all like, no one's
going to tell us the truth because too many important people. I think the list is like one
thing to be like, you know, I never expected them to release the list, but the story of his death was
just not believable
in itself.
We have no tapes.
The tapes were turned just so...
It's all BS.
Isn't that demoralizing then?
It's all a big club and you ain't in it, George Carter.
Isn't that the point to demoralize you then?
You not being you personally, Paul,
everybody?
And to confuse, demoralize,
check out,
say, what can you do?
It does happen.
Even if you don't...
You can not be political, but politics chooses you.
It's like, you could check out of this stuff.
And it's like, that's the intended effect.
A really great young guy that works at BiFederal.
And he's a developer.
I won't dox him and mention his name.
He'll know who he is if he's listening.
He's from Argentina.
Yeah, I think I've met him at dinner.
And he grew up there.
Yeah.
And we've talked about this topic.
And he said to me one day, he goes, you know,
this is exactly what they did in Argentina.
It's just they need to go from one catastrophe to the next.
from one shock and awe to the next immediately so that you just like as soon as you're like oh my
god then they just go over here because there's another oh my god over here and they keep they
keep that process going until like you said people just get demoralized and give up right even people
who care yeah you know just yeah it's like okay they're above the law there is no justice so what
what am I even worried? What am I even fighting for? Right. Which is why,
why we're all here on Bitcoin. At least those of us who, many of us, right,
got involved in Bitcoin for that, because of that reason, because we found something
that regardless of what the media was saying about it, regardless of what great investors
and wealthy people were saying about it, we knew it delivered the truth every 10 minutes
and that it couldn't be corrupted and it couldn't be censored.
It couldn't be taken from us.
That if we volunteered to be a part of it, we had that and we own that.
And I think that's where the kind of people that were attracted to Bitcoin
in the earliest of early days.
Not that I was there in the early days.
It took me a while to find it.
But, you know, that kind of mindset, I think,
was what are the people that were attracted to Bitcoin early on.
Yeah.
And so many people I've met in this space, you know, what about 9-11?
Bullshit.
You know, what about this?
What about that?
They're all on the same page.
They all kind of came from that belief structure.
And maybe that's just my little fucking niche, but seems to be pretty common.
And so, you know, like, I don't know what I'm trying to say here, but I think that, you know, we're trying to find.
truth and we're finding trying to find a way out of that system and bitcoin is helping us
source that yeah i agree it is that source of truth and that's what you know i think bitcoin
is our truth seekers if we share anything in common yeah so all right let's get into the show
this is uh
Bitcoin Center brought to you by base.
I don't know.
Thank you.
Let's be real, right?
Praising Telegram for launching a Bitcoin wallet.
I've always felt like Luke Haley.
Bitcoin, this digital currency that's out there that people say, oh, it might be the next big thing.
What do you think?
I think it's rat poison.
Bitcoins.
You never heard them a few weeks ago?
Now everybody's talking about them, but is it a currency?
I don't know.
Or is it more like a stock?
Or is it a tulip bowl?
Or is it just stupid?
To me, it smells like Ponzi scheme and the greater fool theory, right?
You do like five minutes of freaking research.
Well, thanks for coming to my set talk.
Yes.
Don't buy shit, Clint.
Oh, man, I didn't get that wrong.
All right.
Bitcoin's recent rally.
Do you agree?
Is crypto finally dead?
Go to the next one.
Matter of fact, they're kind of in the Ethernet.
What are they?
There's some rumors that it's a Japanese guy, but they say no, that he's a fake name.
It was a pseudonym.
I mean, you're literally putting real money onto a system that we don't even know who created it.
It will come to a bad ending.
Is this the most exciting bull run ever?
Not for me.
No, it's not.
welcome to bitcoin center the fast-paced show where the debate is the story
that guy's that guy's voice at the end it's like grandpa said metaphor yeah the debate
is the story soothing all right let's get into it so bitcoin soared to all-time high a new all-time
high of 125k uh so and it uh you know the banks came out talked about bitcoin joining the debasement
trade amid government halt is bitcoin proven itself as a safe haven so okay it depends on how
you look at it. I think for Bitcoiners that appreciate the fact that you can self-custody
Bitcoin, you can easily verify Bitcoin, it can't be confiscated from you. We've always
looked at it as a safe haven because we've understood the imperfections and the structure
of securities that we've invested in in the past, right?
So in that regard, Bitcoin has always been a safe haven for some of us.
For others, though, who maybe have a more of a TradFi belief system or have come to
Bitcoin just for money go up, I think they're seeing Bitcoin trade in lockstep with risk
assets, with the NASDAQ.
And so they don't see it as a safe haven asset because they're just purely looking at the
correlation of Bitcoin to other risk assets. So in their minds, it's not a safe haven asset yet.
And it won't be until we have a major crisis and it goes up while other risk assets are going down.
Yeah. That's true.
So, but, you know, in a, they may not get what they want for a very long time because in a fiscally dominated cycle where we're at now, all assets should be correlated.
And then you want to be on the fastest horse in that race, which is Bitcoin.
Wow. So far this year, though, it's been gold.
Yes, it has been gold.
It has been gold.
Yeah, which reminds me, when are we going to get a GATT?
What's a GATT?
A gold asset treasury company.
Right.
I mean, we kind of have those, right?
We have ETFs.
That's not a GATT.
Would the miners be?
Well, those are like miners.
I'm going to see some old school Johnson & Johnson be like, we're starting a GATT.
What's your MNAFT?
Gold.
Right.
Let's move on.
All right.
ETF inflows kickstart.
With $3.2 billion, the second best week on record, Bitcoin ETF inflows fuel October rally.
Are record-breaking ETF buys the rocket behind Bitcoin's October surge so far?
I mean, it seems like it.
If we're looking at measuring inflows, I mean, this is the second largest ever week.
This is much more than micro strategy or strategy has been kind of putting into Bitcoin lately.
Does this also market as a safe haven?
I mean, these are your smartest retail value investors out there.
They're moving to Bitcoin amid sort of a government halt and signs that the Fed's going to continue lowering rates.
It's strange.
You know, it is correlated with risk assets.
But what makes something a safe haven?
I agree with your definition that it's going to kind of go up and be uncorrelated.
But I think for most people, it means less volatility.
and so if bitcoin were to outperform gold from the rest of the year it still wouldn't be called
a safe haven for a lot of people because it would be increased volatility uh but you know these
inflows are interesting i mean now bitcoin though is not at all-time highs anymore it's it's down
121 and change now so um remains to be seen uh what october or october is i mean it's uh i think
it's it's interesting are they like you know with this etf bitcoin etf inflows uh this
could be sort of quarterly rebalancing for people that haven't had exposure
um that might be a part of it because it was tailing off and for it to just snap back up so
quickly to me it seems like more like a quarterly inflow yeah rebalancing back in you know people
maybe rebalancing to have bitcoin in their portfolio for the first time what i find really
interesting uh a week or two ago i i felt like the bitcoin x was kind of like hey this is uh is this
over or is this the bart and we go up eight or ten grand and it's pandemonium and it's four four four
and uh we're gonna rip and it's amazing how much that well you know if you look if you look at the
schedule of highs and lows for bitcoin uh our friend our mutual friend pointed this out to me
today if you look at the highs and lows in sequence from from the days of trading days
from high to low low to high high to low low to high we should have peaked uh in the bitcoin site
up bull market uh as of yesterday or today how does that compare to 2017 when we peaked in december
i think um it's just it's trading days from peak to drop not not full so they always kind of shift
yeah so we we should have ah we should have peaked today i don't think i don't think that's legit
like i don't think i don't think we're do you think we have a peak in 2025 or does this bleed
into 2026 and i think it bleeds into 2026 at least into the first quarter if not the first half
and the only real good research i've seen from that is um some research around how
bitcoin was linked with the refinancing cycle and that refinancing cycle got pushed back because of
the covet crash so if you looked at the bottom that happened before the covet crash we were
coming out of it and then we spiked right back down that move to zero interest rates for that
period of time drove a lot of refinancing and so it pushed the refinancing cycle back
to where normally we'd be pressured to to refinance all this debt now corporations and
and government and by by letting them all refinance the low rates in uh mid 2020 into
early 2021 maybe, it's pushed this whole thing back.
So this four-year cycle looks like it used to be kind of synced to the refinancing cycle,
and now it's getting pushed back because of that COVID event, which means that we could
peak somewhere closer because we going to have to refinance a ton of Treasury debt going into next year And so if we got to get rates down we got to get liquidity up to facilitate that refinancing
then this Bitcoin cycle could continue with it.
All right.
Well, Ray Dalio weighed in.
So let's move on to the next one here.
Is Bitcoin a legitimate currency to hold in that environment?
That's an interesting and not easily answered question.
There's a medium of exchange and a storehold of wealth, and most importantly, the storehold of wealth.
So Bitcoin is perceived by many as a money.
It is limited in its supply, and it has certain transaction benefits.
Very easily, all around the world, you can transact in it, and so it has those elements.
I doubt that any central bank will take it on as a reserve currency,
because everybody can understand and watch, governments can,
who is doing what transactions on it, governments can.
So there's no privacy to it.
And there is a question of whether the code could be broken
or things can be done to make it, let's say, less effective,
including government controls of it.
So I can't say exactly how effective it is as a money,
but it's being perceived by many as an alternative money.
My own approach is in my share of my portfolio,
I have gold and I have some Bitcoin, but not much.
What do you think?
Is the billionaire investor seeing Bitcoin something more than just a hedge?
I don't think so.
what do you mean i think he thinks i think that's exactly what he thinks it is it's a
it's an interesting alternative money that might be worth something someday
i don't think he cares about the alternative money thing i think he cares about the asymmetric trade
sounded like that was and what do you think when he says i have some bitcoin
no i mean he's been talking about having owned owned bitcoin for a few years now how would you
you categorize that five percent who knows ten percent he seems to downplay it there let's say
he even started if he started at one percent he's got ten percent now okay there's i mean you know
what i mean right unless he kept rebalancing it and he could have 35 he just wants to downplay it
could be could be i you know i i mean i think i think he's right in regards to central banks
i don't see you know because the whole point of bitcoin is to replace the central bank right
it's privacy for thee but not for me you know they they want to have all their transactions
shielded and you know nobody gets to know what the hell they're doing where they want to know
everything about us right you get a cbdc they get uh to move move money through the bank of
international settlements without anybody knowing what the hell they're doing so so yeah i think
bitcoin in and of itself is an attack against central banking it may have been specifically
created as such and i think if you're ray dalio or anybody who's made a fortune sitting next to
the central bank uh and taking advantage of the fiat system then yeah you're always going to be
questioning its ability i think for the rest of us we're hopeful that this is the replacement
yeah did he seem fully there to you fully there yeah like sharp and and someone you should be going
to for necessarily guidance on this i mean i know he's a bellwether sign for a lot of people but
i at some point you might lose your um edge i well okay yeah maybe as like an actual like day-to-day
portfolio manager but all the research everything that he's talking about now is the big cycles
and the big transitions that happened during fourth turnings and during monetary resets
that's all historical data that he's curated over his lifetime yeah and so i think for him now it's
just like he could probably re you know explain those talking points over and over and over again
without much nuance and be pretty much dead on because this everything that we're living through
right now is coming from a history there's nothing in our lifetime i think we're going through the
pinnacle moment of his work yes i just don't know if he's at the pinnacle of his
abilities to interpret what's going to happen next or how it's going to play out i mean i've
talked to a couple people that worked with him and um i'm not trying to throw shade on them
they've said we've had conversations that this is the one thing he's missing is that
that this Bitcoin injecting itself may mean that that becomes a new global reserve asset,
new neutral reserve money, which means that we don't follow his path right into a Chinese Yuan
backed system. Right. He could be right about so many things and emotionally married to
a particular outcome that he's holding. Yeah. Okay. All right. O'Leary, Bitcoin versus AI
in an energy race.
As U.S. grids strain under record AI demand,
are Bitcoin miners about to lose their power advantage
or will the fight for energy crown Bitcoin
as the benchmark for efficiency?
Is AI data centers a threat or compliant
or compliment to miners?
Sorry.
I think it's a compliment.
And I think you're going to see a marriage here
of need and convenience.
I think the government is going to declare these assets critical infrastructure at some point.
And I think that these companies will be subsidized in the way that Amazon, Google.
Miners or AI?
AI and miners, yeah.
Both.
Yeah.
For ability to get transactions into, you know, process.
Yeah.
For the ability to secure power for AI, for hash, for all these things.
and I think to secure the grid and help the energy grid.
And while AI might be demanding more energy now
and maybe has higher margins for these data centers right now,
that changes as Bitcoin's price changes.
Yeah, I think Bitcoin miners are like the frontier energy players,
meaning they can move portably to the extreme edges of the grid
where there's no drive for AI yet.
There's no massive population base yet,
but there's a huge resource there that we want to cultivate.
I think these Bitcoin miners have that unique ability
to be this frontier energy development resource
that AI doesn't.
AI needs to, they're willing to plug into much higher energy.
They need to be close to markets.
They need to deliver data like right now.
so I think a Bitcoin miner that might be
in a big city
or just plugged into
the grid, they might be incentivized
to shift towards AI
where pure play Bitcoin miners
would be incentivized to go off grid
go further remote and find the
cheapest source of energy and develop
those new resources and so
you're probably right, the government would use both of those
strategically
I don't see it as a threat at all
I've been close to the market
All right, let's go on to the next one.
Yeah, well, I think the end game is we accumulate a trillion dollars worth of Bitcoin and then we grow it.
20, 30, you know, Bitcoin appreciates 21% a year in 21 years.
And then we grow that capital by issuing more credit.
So we're growing faster than 21%.
So the end game is get to a trillion dollars of collateral growing 30% a year.
be issuing $100 billion of credit a year,
growing 20%, 30% a year,
and that credit is yielding
200, 300, 400 basis points more
than all of the real estate-backed credit,
the corporate-backed credit,
the fiat-backed credit,
or any other type of credit instrument in the world, right?
and it's done by some combination of Bitcoin treasury companies
working in concert with each other, right?
The Bitcoin network becomes a multi-hundred trillion dollar network.
So do you anticipate in that sort of future strategy being in a position
where you might extend Bitcoin credit to institutions,
distressed institutions or sovereigns at some point in the future?
Yeah, well, when we sell credit,
We don't buy it.
Okay.
So when you say extend credit, we won't be making a loan to them.
We will be offering them our credit instrument.
So if you're a nation state and you want 10% yield, you'll buy our credit instead of buying something that yields 3%, right?
We will sell the credit, create the credit, right?
And I think, you know, our view is we want to create, you know, not 10 billion, but 100 billion and then a trillion dollars and then trillions of dollars worth of credit backed by digital capital.
what do you what did you make of that and i think the question here is you know as he sailor reveals
the bitcoin treasury end game is do you think you know individuals can kind of get the idea
the ideals or the qualities and traits from bitcoin can companies sort of do that
can companies be sovereign and use censorship or resistant money and sort of the properties
of Bitcoin besides sort of price exposure?
I mean, part of me says yes, part of me says no,
because it depends upon the nation state
and how much that sort of battle
between the old system and this new system
that Saylor is describing heats up.
Because what he's describing is Bitcoin
this pristine collateral that allows you to rebuild the financial system on a whole new
collateral base that's equity driven that's not debt driven right it's not treasury debt it's not
government debt and and that that reorg of the traditional financial system
sounds great to people like us. It's incredibly threatening to others that are fully embedded in
that traditional space, which is why I think he gets so much shrapnel, right? Because
what he's talking about doing, you would as an investor, as a sovereign investor or an
individual investor look across uh the the credit he'll be selling and say that's the best yield i
could get and i trust the collateral that underpins it so you know early 12 months 24 months ago
uh he would get trapped all over he won't say that bitcoin is money that's trying to replace
a dollar where where is he now in that arc i think he's in the same place because i think his model
is the bridge or that window that window of time which could be in my mind 20 30 years
of time where bitcoin coexists with the dollar
i'm not one of these guys that says we go to a bitcoin standard bitcoin only in the next five
years he's refining the bitcoin turning you know turning the 30 cager into yield at a lower rate
for the credit market but that's going after the money market which is huge and the bond market
which is huge so there is some ruffling of the feathers there it's not the bitcoin is money part
of it but it's i mean it's going after wall street yes you know but he's he's paving the way right
now you're seeing um blackrock is going to do a essentially a yielding bitcoin etf which will
probably look a lot like his money market competitor right this stretch or stripe i
didn't know if that was going to compete with which stretch or if that was going to compete
with something more like msty and sort of yeah maybe maybe the way they're generating the yield
might be like that but i think it's going to be um a lot more uh i don't imagine that the
and everyone's going to be selling yield in the next 18 months from yeah i don't think i don't i
don't think the blackrock etf yielding etf is going to function like msty i could be wrong yeah i don't
know what they're doing to generate the yield if they're going to function like with a bitcoin as
an asset collateralized like like strategy using for stretch or if it's going to be like ms2y i
guess we'll find out but um i think it's interesting that you know i we've talked about this a bunch
right if if you war gamed out the american debt crisis back before 2008 because your pentagon
department in the 60s and 70s yeah i mean you could war game this out from the view of history
and from the trajectory of debt and say okay we're we're going to get to this point where
the us is the debt is unstoppable and we're going to need to recapitalize the system somehow
right and so you have people floating this idea like oh we'll just do a platinum coin
right oh we'll just reprice gold we'll do all we'll do all these things right but doing all that is
also sort of like easy to track like china's buying all the gold up front russia's buying
gold so you reprice gold you just make all your competitors wealthy yeah they can't reprice right
so if you you know but if you are they gonna make developed something called bitcoin
and you floated it out to a bunch of tinfoil hat libertarian psychopaths i wish you hear that this
is that drove the price up and then you go wow you guys are so smart open source the code
hacked it away at it and then some president gets on stage in nashville and goes
thank you we got it from here yeah and they've rolled out the road carpet as wide as they can
for all of it.
And then what Saylor is telling you is I'm
recapitalizing the traditional financial system
on Bitcoin, and I'm going to show you how to do it.
Right. And that's that public-private partnership.
To me,
it seems like that's exactly what's going on.
Okay, so does
the United States government take a stake in strategy
the way they did in Intel? Do they need to?
No, I don't think they need to. They don't need to if
Bitcoin can come in and
recapitalize the entire system. But they could always
subsidize, finance, and lend
money to a strategy, which
Which gives it an infinite bid in the marketplace.
They could subsidize the miners.
The defense industry is not about what we need to defend ourselves.
It's got an infinite bid from the...
We're investing capital in Intel because we want the chips.
Right.
We're going to invest probably capital in AI companies.
Probably Marathon and Bitcoin miners.
We want to control the AI.
Right.
We're probably going to invest in nuclear and then subsidize Bitcoin miners, portable nuclear.
Right.
on and on and on and on.
We're gonna have a sovereign wealth fund.
And so then if you think about Bitcoin,
this guy Signal, Pigeon on X is great.
I don't know.
You gotta follow the guy.
But it like he seen as like he thinks they running the price up on gold they to crash the price of gold move to Bitcoin But the key is that they control everything around the Bitcoin not the Bitcoin itself but the on ramps the custody the hash rate the mempool in terms of mining power and everything
and so it's it's and and then they can use the facade of bitcoin the way the facade of oil or
gold has sort of given credibility to the balance sheet of america they don't have to own the
bitcoin to get the credibility from owning all the pipes all the on-ramps and all the surveillance
right um i agree i agree i think i think what you're like if i had to put my rub my crystal
I would say, okay, we're going to let gold keep going to 10,000 plus an ounce while we're building out our Bitcoin empire.
We're getting companies that own Bitcoin.
We're getting subsidized.
Americans do their 401ks and ETFs.
Yeah, we're getting it embedded in America.
We're letting gold market just go.
China's driving that.
Russia's driving.
thank you guys but then when we go to reprice gold it'll be because we are about to unleash that
new capital into bitcoin like bo heinz described and they have to move from sort of the the lack
of credibility around gold to the credibility around bitcoin and the auditable nature of bitcoin
that come right and i don't know if they ever sell the gold no i don't think they would ever
reprice it they just they just i don't think they sell it i don't think they um i think they could
potentially reprice it because it would give them so much collateral in the tga it would just make
their enemies richer it would sell it it would make their enemies richer but if in if it made us
richer and then we parlayed that into bitcoin jeff park was going through this math on pom show i
think i saw the clip and it was this is jeff park's math but like even if you went from 42 an ounce
to 4 000 an ounce you're only talking like a trillion dollar game yeah it's nothing it's not
it doesn't move the needle it doesn't move the needle right whereas if you if you had a trillion
dollars in bitcoin but then that goes up that's why i think that moves the needle that's why i
think they let the free market take it to ten thousand dollars an ounce on gold before they
they convert. Josh is calling for $16K on gold.
Okay, there you go. They don't want to
reprice the gold on their balance sheet
at 10,000 ounce when it's priced at $4,000.
They just want to take it. They just want to market to market.
So they want the free market to take it. To market to market, they have to prove they have it.
Why? I mean,
I don't, I have not the easy issue.
They don't have to, but it's kind of like, well, who cares if you mark it to market?
Do you have any?
It's not Bitcoin.
Right.
The only thing they need is the central bank.
It doesn't have to disclose anything to say, yeah, you got it.
All right.
Let's go to the lightning round.
This is Bitcoin Federal.
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Go bank yourself.
Point of sale, crypto wallet, and the Bitcoin ATM.
all right josh mandel predicts the bitcoin at 444k by november november this year november
8th dude you haven't heard about this i have heard about this i didn't think there was a date on it
no he put a date on like when you need when the bottom was i think he was like um there was a
particular day like 10 days ago he was like this is gonna be the bottom in 24 hours i remember that
It's going to rip and 444 by November 8th now.
Oh, I didn't know there was a date on it.
Which comes out to 3.6% per day.
I mean, if we go to 44K by November 8th, then...
Now, but he's saying it's a fast wick up, like a crazy thin wick up.
Holy smokes.
And then coming down to 84K, you know, on the backside of that.
That's violent.
Okay, so what's the question?
The question is, is this a moonshot fantasy or could Bitcoin's momentum actually make it?
I don't think it's a moonshot fantasy.
I mean, we're talking about 3x.
Bitcoin has done.
If people said, you know, there's no way Bitcoin could move that big.
It's too big of a market.
If gold could do 50% in nine months, and that's a 10 to a, now it's like a 13 to a $20 trillion market.
at a 20 20 plus trillion bitcoin could do 250 300x in a quarter yeah no i i like absolutely there's
no reason they can't well it's not even a quarter now it's like it's like well no he's calling my
number right november eight but i'm just saying over the fourth quarter uh so i don't think that's
out of hand uddy's calling for 400k uh well if uddy says i'm all in i feel like in a weird way
Uri has been, I don't like the word either, but signal in a weird way,
especially the last couple of months.
I don't know.
I'd love to chat with him sometime.
So, yeah, I don't understand this, though.
November 8th of this year is un-possible.
Un-possible?
What does that mean?
Un-impossible?
Impossible.
Not un-impossible.
That's an interesting phrasing.
Let's move on to the next one here.
It is the lightning round.
Oh, yeah, New York.
New York proposes excise tax on Bitcoin money.
why are new york lawmakers proposing a new sliding scale excise tax and proof-of-work mining
and who would it affect well so there aren't a ton of crypto miners at least you know viable
crypto miners in new york but there is one green greenage greenage i think they call themselves
not green ridge just greenage and it has been under attack in new york for as long as i can
remember because they use coal and natural gas and so they're the new york blue poster child they
want to just destroy them and this seems like an attack on them more than anything else is like
they want to get that out of their state um i don't think it really has that big of an impact on
anybody and anybody else but these poor guys have been under attack by the state of new york for as
long as i can remember my home state it's a shame to see them not embrace or attack bitcoin in so
many different ways from the bit license to proof of work all right but you know consider consider
who the largest lobbyists are in new york right i mean i mean yeah okay fair enough yeah all right
there's a lot of uh interest that have been there for a long time okay um moving on treasury
exempts corporate bitcoin from amt how will the u.s treasury guidance excluding unrealized
cryptocurrency gains from the 15 corporate alternative minimum tax affect companies
holding bitcoin this is big this is a really big deal uh but it's a lot it's really just a lot of
relief um this never should like shouldn't have happened taxing on realized gains including that
in the corporate minimum tax so uh i mean just it's relief uh we don't we don't spend a lot of
time on this i think what is something to really track though is the phased implementation of form
1099 da okay which is going to be sort of uh all the exchanges kind of giving you your buy information
a lot of this is going to come out fuzzy in the beginning and i think people are really worried
about having to pay phantom gains not having to be able to not being able to prove cost basis on
bitcoin from yeah because you're going to be oh okay i bought on uh river and i moved it to self
custody river is going to say here's your cost basis on what you bought and then you moved it
so we don't we don't know what happened over there we don't know where you took it right and then
that's if you get good information from river river is probably going to be great at this but
like there are going to be other entities that just sure you know like finance swapping gonna
send you anything right uh you know i mean so i'm just talking about like you know legitimate
exchanges sure then let's say you send it to self-custody and then you move it to coinbase
and you sell it at coinbase yeah coinbase is going to show you a zero cost basis yeah they're going
to send you a 1099 da that says you sold this much and right now you've got to cross-reference
all that stuff on your right yep and so record keeping is going to be paramount here and uh
people are fearing there's gonna be an increase in audits and things like that and um well this is
the shitsorm that comes before oh okay well you know you guys now need to communicate with each
other and uh river you need to find out where they're sending that coin and then you know you
need to verify that tracking and tracing yeah yeah so uh thankfully they got rid of the you know the
amt exemption on you know they brought in the amt exemption on the uh corporate bitcoin but yeah
watch out for the 1099 da we'll keep you updated on that let's move on so the next one the hiring
spree uh crypto exchanges embark on hiring spree why are major crypto exchanges uh massively
expanding hiring in october 2025 why now because josh told him it's going to 444
but i think i think it's uh the fact that we're seeing this i think what they're preparing for this
merger of trad fi and defy um and crypto exchanges like coinbase gemini they're all kind of coming
together into platforms that offer it all and so i think the regulatory clarity has caused
exchange you know these legitimate regulated exchanges like coinbase kraken river gemini
etc to say to themselves wow we we need to start pulling in some of these previously thought of as
obscure risky offshore degen technology trading technology maybe we need to bring that into our
system these perpetuals look pretty cool maybe we should be doing perpetuals here um you know
tokenizing real world assets tokenizing securities why aren't we trading tokenized apple at coinbase
right like right on and on so i think they're seeing a very broad potential and so they need
devs to build that all out all right let's see where it goes let's move on to the next one here
we got a clip like you like if you don't like cat photos you don't like whizzers or whatever
that's like your choice right but i don't think um this is not a legitimate transaction or you know
this is a waste of blocks, you know, because NFTs are bad or whatever.
I don't think that language has a play.
Well, I don't think that should be considered
when you are talking about writing policy code.
Yeah, as a developer.
Yeah, as a developer, as a protocol maintainer.
All right, dude, what do you think of that?
I want to talk to her a lot more.
So because like that, that's, I mean, easy to say.
I wonder how much Bitcoin she actually owns.
So you can say that's getting the gain.
How much value do you have locked in Bitcoin?
Well, is she making a fair point that a dev shouldn't think about what people like or dislike in regards to what is a legitimate transaction?
you should think about what is the network used for and what's the best right tools to make the
network continue to function in that fashion it's used to represent money it's used to be
an unsensible unconfiscatable blockchain that supports that because that seemed to be uh
to me am i am i going out on a lead a limb here too far and saying like that because that seemed
to be like a political statement of sorts yeah well and yeah versus um but but shrouded in the
guise of um um libertarianism libertarianism right so uh am i like am i am i wrong and we should be
libertarian about this or am i like yeah like no you're missing the point it's it's a protocol for
a certain thing and you're hiding behind libertarianism and that's sort of like a political
commentary on diversification that's what i felt like absolutely clear if you take the libertarian
view of money sure right if you take if you if you say okay then bitcoin is libertarian money
it's not libertarian data transfer like it's not it's not a social media network it's not a place
to send JPEGs around.
Your JPEG doesn't have to be unconfiscatable.
The minute you show it to somebody,
it can be confiscated.
You don't need Bitcoin-level security for your JPEG.
It's literally an attack on the purpose of Bitcoin.
And to just downplay it as,
like it should be open and it you know your opinion i'm still trying to understand i'm trying
to you know how do you go aside and straw man the you know uh policies verse uh rules or consensus
sort of you know the filter the mempool policy versus the consensus rules yeah and the
predictability of trans uh of of items going to be in the mempool there's dozens and dozens of
blockchains that have just been carbon copies of bitcoin that have been used for other things
most of them have failed yeah no i get that right so so we have discovered through trial and error
that money is the ultimate use case for blockchain shaw 256 cryptography hashing etc
It's not the ultimate use case to store a JPEG.
It's not the ultimate use case to, you know, support your video or your...
Right, but how we get there is important to be continued.
I want to keep exploring it.
I want to make sure we're not missing anything here.
She should come on the show.
All right, well, open invitation.
All right, let's move on to the next one here.
White House floats using gold to buy Bitcoin.
A senior U.S. official says the government could tap unrealized gold gains to fund Bitcoin purchases, potentially acquiring 1 million Bitcoin under the proposed Bitcoin Act.
Is this happening for real?
Is this for real?
I mean, is it?
I don't think it's for real.
I don't know if it's for real.
I think it makes sense.
That means it's definitely not for real.
You know, I mean, I don't.
I could see this happening.
i could see this happening down the road like i said earlier i don't think this happens until the
market price of of gold is much higher um i could see this happening um as a way to try and trigger
the rest of the world onto this bitcoin standard because we're developed we're developing right a
unipolar world that traditionally uh has settled you know if you go back 80 years right used to
settle on gold gold was a neutral reserve asset of central banks if your country i'm talking about
of the US is subject to a central bank
that you don control that you don have influence over that is working for the global program not working for Make America the best it can be
then this idea of flipping from gold to Bitcoin,
it would send shockwaves across the entire global financial system.
And in doing so, if you were better prepared than anybody else on the planet,
your country would excel.
So I could see this kind of strategy
as a way to preserve U.S. dominance.
We'll see.
If they can make it happen.
The Trump shock, like the Nixon shock.
Let's move on to the next one.
This is kind of in line.
The $1 million Bitcoin question.
One of the latest, on the latest Bitcoin matrix.
Is that yours?
Is that you?
The idea of Bitcoin could hit 1 million this year
is floated, if it did, what would that actually mean for the economy? Could it happen through
multiple paths or would it only be possible in the event of a total dollar collapse?
We're going to roll. If Bitcoin went to a million this year, which I think is still possible,
not maybe likely or probable, how bad would that be for, let's say, the economy?
uh and what does that mean for the price of different things uh but maybe you know the
price of bread doesn't skyrocket in that example and maybe that's a way to export all the inflation
into bitcoin um and i do also think at some point like we kind of have to rip the band-aid off like
even if we don't want it to go quick we don't want it to be ugly uh i i don't think we have a choice
I think idealistically
the longer this takes
the slower the grind up
the better for everybody
but I don't think we're assured that
by any means
and I think at some point
we have to deal with this
the pain in the system
or how broken it is
that was just all about you?
you're not going to let your guest talk?
I was the guest on that one
okay sorry
it was my turn to actually run and talk well there you go we got your opinion i've dwelled
on that since bitcoin tina talked about america exporting all the inflation the bitcoin
and maybe all these other things don't rip in the same way you know perishable um you know food and
consumer goods and and maybe that's a good thing too and maybe that's not exported and then you're
not exporting all the inflation to the rest of the world either i think it's an accurate assessment
of what's happening with bitcoin but i don't think it just goes to a million right i think it's
because it's a free market and if we went to 220 let alone 440 000 in the next few months
there would be a lot of sellers that would come out of the woods so i think i think bitcoin is
going to continue to ebb and flow on its way to a million dollars a coin and there'll be a lot of
volatility and that will help you really transition if it did do an 8x that's all it is and that's all
it ran up to a million and hung out there for like three days and then came like crashing down
to 112 yeah or even you know to do more damage hung out there for like you know like somewhere
between 750 and one point and a million 50 for like three four weeks enough time for people to
lever up borrow against and that that crashed down the misery and the toll and and sort of that would
be normal for bitcoin adoption in cycles yeah uh you know for people with uh you know they the the
um people with it everybody no matter what your size your stack is you'd be worth so much more
than you are now 10 times now or eight times now and then to not be worth that and then yeah the
few people that got to sell in that short period other people who thought it was gonna you know
that it would just be um typical I think in a lot of ways for a Bitcoin cycle yeah I I think it was
I think I think you would get a lot of selling and a lot of pain before we ever got 10 million
yeah i don't know but i mean we'll see let's uh worry about that if we get it
i'm afraid uh i do i did want to read this though so uh someone wrote to josh mandel every time i
tried to trade i have lost money i'm only built for holding but if there was a way to copy your
exact trades automatically i would definitely do that and even pay you a fee of the profit
He wrote,
At the beginning of my career, I came across studies suggesting that even a monkey throwing darts could outperform the average trader or portfolio manager,
which made me realize that there's something in the market that often leads us astray.
So when I started trading, I'd make a decision based on all the reasoning I could gather and then do the opposite.
He's a fucking legendary trader.
That's awesome.
all right uh pakistan will pakistan's bitcoin reserve plan backfire this is a weird article
because it's it's like saying um you know it's talking about the difference between what the
government wants to do or could do versus what's good for the people and that very rarely happens
right so like like the government has in pakistan i guess has an enormous amount of unused energy
that they're losing money on, just unloading.
So it makes absolute sense for them to mine the Bitcoin.
And then the article goes into,
but they've had so much corruption and fraud
in the crypto space,
and they've had people that get taken advantage of
and blah, blah, blah.
It's like, that's not what we're talking about here.
That's not what Pakistan's talking about.
Pakistan's talking about,
I got energy that's going to waste.
Does somebody want to kind of help us mine this stuff?
mind this bitcoin put it on our balance sheet how long before like a country like pakistan
has you know uh let's say enormous power that's unused they start turning on bitcoin
it's you know a decade from now bitcoin's emissions are a lot lower uh and and the
united states government sends over some some jets and blows up a dam or i mean no you're not
getting any more bitcoin right you know i mean how long like is that the real hash wars where
you know and that that's why i think well now now ai and bitcoin miners are going to go along
because they're going to be protected pakistan has sort of like apparently been our ally for a
number of years i'm saying a non-ally ally ally you know and um i mean yeah but so if you're gonna
you're gonna drone strike or well this is one thought i think it's like strike your why would
blow up their stuff if you could use that power to mine for yourself but at some point you say look
we got enough we we're we got nuclear power we're mining we got marathon we own riot we own strategy
as our broker dealer public private partnership let's go blow up their nuclear power so they can't
get bitcoin i mean right i mean that's probably going to happen you're not you're going to go
blow up russia's you're going to get yours blown up right right so it's gonna i mean that's just
the way these uh countries are going to deal with each other so i i think pakistan's probably going
maybe they'll do it and then they'll sell the bitcoin to us maybe that's what top country is
about yeah man all right let's go on to the next one brazil brazil opens doors to bitcoin miners
with energy firms courting miners to soak up 70 excess output is brazil quietly positioning itself
as the next global bitcoin mining hub or just flirting with a short-term fix
ah this is the same thing they got the excess energy let's see where they go with it it you
know they're gonna mine yeah well let's see if they actually mine let's see if they actually
attract miners but they have the excess energy it's clear path to getting some sats someone will
come uh every week we talk about this it's countries looking at crypto stable coins mining
it makes sense let's let's move on to the next one the ipo pipeline so wall street's 200 billion
crypto IPO pipeline with over 200 billion in crypto firms preparing to go public is wall
street about to replace all coins speculation with a more respectable form of crypto mania
or just repackage the same cycle in IPO form i it kind of depends on how you just use the word
respectable um i had this conversation um with alex thorn and uh you know his idea was that like
if it's legal and passes SEC compliance, then let people have it and it'll find its value or it'll disappear.
At least there is some sort of regulator here that's at least looking superficially at the legality of these structures
and the disclosures around these structures.
that doesn't mean that just because they put their stamp of approval on it that it isn't going to fail.
Lots of companies go public and fail, and the vast majority do.
So I would say that it's kind of like cryptomania with a little bit of an upgrade
in that you can at least eliminate some complete frauds.
frauds like i don't ever see like hex being able to go public or like eos back in the day going
public right but but you're going to get companies with ideas that go public and they fail but um
hopefully this is going to weed out broadsters so i think i'm i'm positive on from that perspective
all right let's move on to the next one this one
Yeah, Open Door opens its door to Bitcoin.
The Open Door moves to accept Bitcoin payments.
Could this mark the start of a real shift from digital to physical assets?
I don't think so.
I don't think this is a big deal at all.
I think this is just marketing hype.
This is trying to appeal to the crypto or Bitcoin rich,
which i don't think is the wider population um they might get some sales out of this but i don't
think that this is like a sign of the times or you know d and i think every company should turn
on the button open door open door don't they buy your yeah and then if they renovate it and then
they try to resell it they're not really like matching buyers and sellers they're they're
buying the house from you then they're reselling it i believe that's so will they is this like
they will give you bitcoin no this is they'll take they'll accept bitcoin i think ethereum and
so once they've got once they've bought i think the tether is actually the more important one
here long term for them uh part of you know sort of with the genius act and the clarity act i think
you know if your tether is at coinbase um and you got taxes not a taxable event and so
So I think that would just do incremental benefit.
I mean, if they really want to make an imprint,
offer me Bitcoin for my house.
Yeah, no, I don't think that's what this is about.
They're going to accept Bitcoin and crypto for home buying.
So that would be, yeah, no, that's really interesting.
And that's a whole different thing.
And that's the opposite way of the street, you know.
think outside the box all right well this is brought to you this is bitcoin center episode 23
brought to you by by federal go bank yourself point of sale crypto wallet and bitcoin atm
make it happen buy those sats and put them in self-custody stamp your seed phrase use micro
seed um uh hit like and subscribe ask any q a i don't know if we have any in the comments but
Thanks for joining us again.
Francis, do we have any questions or comments?
We have a few comments.
Let's just go there.
Go bank yourself.
Robert Schmidt says,
Kevin O'Leary lost all credibility after the FTX collapse.
He said he would invest with SPF again.
Fair points for Robert.
I agree.
He was kind of like, hey, I found Bitcoin.
I'm here to fix it kind of guy.
yeah i i don't think he's like pure signal but it's interesting to hear what people say
and kind of even if you you know don't agree i think it's kind of especially in these bigger
voices what they're kind of pivoting around or trying to position i mean i think he i think he
came in he came in during a cycle he tried to be the big shot on stage and uh you know have all
these opinions and get all the tattoo as well no that was um galaxy oh that's his name mike
Novogratz.
That was the Celsius tattoo.
Robert goes on to say he was also pushing
for regulatory clarity, which means
shit coins get a free pass for selling on...
Yeah, I agree.
He hasn't been a great influence in the space.
Agreed. He's got a big voice,
so people listen. Hey!
Dude, yeah! Go buy
Blood of the Bourgeoisie
by Michael R. Sullivan.
Meant to shout that out.
Thanks for tuning in, bro. Can't wait to dig into
this. Looks fresh.
nice you know you guys actually believe fortnite no man i don't don't either
places full of i don't think they have to have remember they talked about having a little uh
audit in the beginning of the year they also talked about having a bitcoin audit which i i
think it's the opposite i think they actually have more bitcoin than they've let on i think
they're going to turn up some some nice sats somewhere but uh no i don't do you do you think
there's any gold in fort i mean like is it zero gold and they're just like it's a whole rouge
i wouldn't be surprised if there's zero gold in fort knox and it's all been lent out to
the big banks so if there's zero when you say zero gold it's been lent out meaning there's
gold there but they don't they have they have ious so that you think there was gold in the house
in fort knox no i don't but there's ious on gold in fort knox yes right you think there's
And so do you think there's no gold, some gold, or no gold, but there's like fake gold?
I think there's fake gold.
You think there's fake gold?
Yes.
Yeah.
And there was a...
Yes.
Like, how does that happen?
Like, do you just have a team of guys like bringing fake gold?
No, no, no, no.
Not like that.
No, I mean, just IOUs, just paper.
Just...
So no gold.
I think it's just a bunch of...
Like, not even fake bars?
It's a bunch of security guards standing around an empty building telling the Federal Reserve,
yeah, we got those many ounces.
So do you think the gold was removed from, like, covertly?
Yeah, I think it was lent out.
I think it was lent out for all sorts of deals.
Like above board lent out.
No one knows.
That's what I'm saying.
That's the whole problem with central banks.
They can do all this shit without telling anybody.
Wow.
And then have a line item on a fucking spreadsheet that says, yeah, we got this much gold.
Do you think China has the gold they say they have?
Yes.
didn't they get busted like a few years ago for selling like four billion dollars in fake gold
i think they got more than us but yeah probably hey i wonder how much real gold they have and how
much fake gold they have yeah who knows you know that's why we bitcoin all right well this doesn't
matter this has been awesome i hope you guys hit like and subscribe i'll be getting next week
Tuesdays at 8 p.m. Eastern
every week. My name is
Cedric Youngelman.
This is Paul Tarantino.
And you're watching Bitcoin Center brought to you by
Byte Federal. Go bank yourself.
Go bank yourself, people.
No goal?
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