What's up? Welcome to Bitcoin Center. My name is Cedric Youngelman.
Michelle Weakley. Great to be here with you, Cedric.
Yeah, it's great. You're guest hosting for Paul. Paul Tarantino.
That's right.
Who's off gallivanting in Europe.
Running around the world. Can't be bothered.
Well, what is he, fishing now in Sweden and he's off to Amsterdam for the conference?
Yep, I think so.
All right, well, he's holding it down.
He's living it up.
Yeah, well, that's nice.
You were just in Montreal. I saw you there.
Yeah, I was. I think the weather followed us home, didn't it?
Yeah, that's true. What did you talk about in Montreal?
Bitcoin, security, physical security, you know, self-custody versus ETFs, all that kind of stuff.
And what do you think sort of how'd that go over in today's ETF world?
I mean, there's a pretty good crowd in Montreal.
Yeah, it's a great event. I love the Bitcoin crew up there. I think it's an interesting time that we're in. There's a lot of people that are in Bitcoin now. This is not a popular take, but I think there's a lot of people who shouldn't be self-custodying yet.
you know you gotta be careful you gotta
really fully understand what you're
doing and I think what
I said up there was
that it is for
anyone when you're ready
but it's not for everyone
right like you've really gotta make sure
that you know what you're doing before you
take full control
yeah
I wanna ask you about Trump
you know we're like what 11 10 months
into the
well I'm gonna start though
Do you think and can you hear me?
I can hear you.
Yeah.
All right.
Do you think that, you know, the Trump regime, I think the Trump regime wants crypto to be a big part of their sort of economic future and plan?
Yeah, totally.
So, right.
So, you know, I think it's good for them if Bitcoin goes up, if stable coins get adopted.
Do you think on the other end, a lot of people think that somehow, some way the paper Bitcoin or futures or, you know, that that Bitcoin might be being suppressed in price?
Maybe it's not. But no, my question is, is it possible America's or Trump's enemies, the Trump regime's enemies are holding the price down by China or Russia?
Oh, anything is possible. I think China, you know, I love I love blaming China. That would be really within China's wheelhouse that they would be suppressing price in order to accumulate.
But I have to say, I don't think that that's what's happening now because I think China's been accumulating since they did the ban.
I have believed that that ban was sort of fake and that they were banning retail, but they were actually at that point in time starting to acquire.
So I think there's definitely shenanigans going on behind the scenes, but you never know what the details are.
So China still has the most mining in the world.
Do you think that's, do you think like they killed the quote unquote, like commercial mining and then captured the assets and or bought their own and they are behind the large amount of hash rate in China right now?
Absolutely. China is ruthless. And I think there's no doubt in my mind that that's what they did. I, you know, I've been there. I've done business there. I've spent a lot of time there.
not that that makes me an expert first per se but absolutely that's what they've been doing
did you see trump uh in the oval office with the gold the gold show i just saw it at the last
minute with the gold and apparently they gave him a rolex or something yeah yeah so we read the way
we did the office and then i forget who he was in there with and she was like so this is not from
home depot he's like no no you what was very interesting to me one he said you can't fake gold
and I'm like well I don't know that's not true right where's the audit of Fort Knox
right but I think you know kind of revealing that during the end of the government shutdown
don't you think that's just really I don't know not the best timing not the best look I just yeah
I think if he has I mean obviously he has faults right but his biggest fault in my opinion is his
ego. Like he just loves to be the center of attention. He loves to be praised. He loves to
show off. And I don't think he cares one bit about the timing of it. You know, you could ask him and
he'd probably laugh. Do you think he cares about any of the details? Do you think he's actually
calling any real shots at, you know, or is he just taking advice from the people that tell him what to
do? I don't know. It's tough. I, you know, I, I was really an advocate for Trump. And so it's,
it's a weird, uh, what would you grade him based on what you were hoping for?
This is tough. Okay. So if you asked me based on what I was hoping for, I would give him an F,
but we have to take a step back and look at what was the alternative right if it hadn't been him
we i fully believe we'd be living under communism we might not be talking they might have banned all
the bitcoin channels on youtube i probably would have lost my job like we'd be living in a totally
different world so it's it's tough you know i don't i mean i think he's installed to i think
he's installed for all the financial surveillance as part of the stable coins and the crypto i think
even like the stimulus checks that they're proposing now i think if commo is in power
i don't think the right would accept that proposition and i think it's and i think with trump
you know like i think he'll get away with certain aspects of inflation that that the left wouldn't
and then there'll be still be aspects of austerity with trump that the left couldn't get away with
that will be reversed when the pendulum swings back with more money print you know you know what
i mean right there's always money printing no matter what i mean i nobody can argue that
But you think it's all just a show, don't you?
I do.
I mean, I really...
Well, I also think that it really would be impossible
for any one person to kind of really game plan this all out
or just figure it all out and come in fresh
and have the courage.
So I think there's sort of a playbook
that they can choose from,
which issues they want to spearhead,
what they want to do first.
you would think like why why all the failures in the first 10 months if he actually wanted to be
successful yeah i'm curious what you think about for example like cash patel you know so the
failures in my opinion are a result like i think is and bongino i mean these are like podcasters
right but they you know they come in hot and then personally i think they've all been blackmailed
Kash Patel is like a deer in headlights. And, you know, he hasn't done a single thing he said
he was going to do. And you have to look at past behavior. You have to look at what they did with
General Flynn. I mean, this is what they do. They threaten people. And so I think that's what's
happening with a lot of them. I mean, I know that the politicians are like a big, you know,
that expectations should be low, but I think that they had plans to do more and that they all got
threatened by the deep state and the intel agencies and stuff so then you would say
then why not the courage to say that like why not and why isn't anybody why doesn't anyone ever
break ranks and say you know what i'm gonna blow the whole thing up being a corrupted captured
person i came into this with not knowing that that would happen now they said this why don't i either
just bow out or are you familiar with Flynn what they did to General Flynn no not in detail no
so that was a confusing one because you know they painted him one way in public I didn't
and so no yeah so there's a documentary which premiered in Venice Florida by the way Flynn
is based down here um but Flynn came out I mean Flynn made a documentary about what they did to
him and what i think what happens is when people do try and speak of it they get suppressed like
you know speaks out against right i mean he doesn't he made a documentary about how the
federal government the department of justice framed his son in order to get him to cooperate
russia gate and he came out and but he speaks about it all the time uh there's been a lot of
wouldn't you make the argument that any honest good person would know this going in
i don't know i think people go in with i mean some do but i think some of these the people that
we were like hoping would actually do something like cash i think they maybe underestimate the
level to which they may end up threatened or i mean but you literally had every one of them
in there once i mean you have cash quangino elon was there for a minute
trump i mean it's they have the whole gang yeah but that's how it works i mean
dc for 12 13 years these people are all i don't know i i'll say this i'm not a trump supporter i
never I never was but I had optimism November through January right and I don't anymore I know
and I was Tom Luongo and he still thinks Trump's kicking ass here I don't agree with that I'm super
disappointed in the whole thing but I'm torn because I don't think the answer is to say
oh screw it and just opt out
because then we end up getting
ruled by these lunatics
who are crazy
enough to be involved and then they're making
the rules and laws and regulations
and all that you know what I mean
so it's I don't know
it's really defeating I admit that
which I think
is part of this the demoralization
campaign
I don't want to be a doomer
I am optimistic long term
I just don't see a lot of cause for optimism in political landscape by the actions I'm seeing.
I don't disagree with that.
I'm kind of a doomer, but I'm really optimistic about more local solutions.
Like I love Florida and I think being involved locally matters.
You know, we saw during COVID how important that is.
And so I think that's going to become more and more important as things get further divided.
So that is kind of what gives me hope.
I think that's worth staying involved and engaged with.
Yeah, I hear you.
I hope is great.
Bitcoin is hope.
You know, the term I hear more now, spot Bitcoin.
It's kind of cringe.
Why do you hate it?
It's just so fiat.
You know what I mean?
Like all Bitcoin should be spot Bitcoin.
Like spot Bitcoin implies that there's something else, which there shouldn't be.
But of course, now there is.
You now have all of these products.
Yeah.
But I think it's more about I think it's sort of trying to indicate self-custody.
You think spot Bitcoin is the indicator of like having.
I think people are trying to colloquially say like buy spot Bitcoin, meaning they're trying to really in a nutshell say buy it on an exchange and take it into self custody.
First buy the ETF or.
Sure.
You know, or treasury company.
Yeah.
And that's fair enough.
And we do need those distinctions now post post ETF sort of Bitcoin, I think, is in it's like Wall Street era.
So I guess we need those distinctions.
But I miss the old days.
uh i mean what do you think about i mean you you voted for trump what do you think about the
government embracing bitcoin as much as it has and again maybe not in terms of maybe pumping the
price or whatever but just all of it just rolling out the red carpet for bitcoin and and the crypto
universe yeah i'm torn on this one too right because we were in a position where they were
really like coming after the entire industry. And there were some things that I saw like from
a regulatory perspective in my role at Byte that we were aware that were happening behind the scenes,
like agendas that they had at the DOJ with FinCEN, stuff like that.
And it wasn good You know we saw a lot of prosecutions like with the Samurai Wallet guys Tornado Cash I know it Ethereum But there were a lot of these cases that were being brought
And I think there were going to be more and more of them.
That's a good point about Tornado or however you say it.
I mean, yeah.
And Samurai.
Right.
And, you know, you saw a lot of Wallet of Satoshi.
Like all the wallets left because they were afraid to offer services to citizens in the U.S.
And, you know, I know some people cheer for that because they think it'll like expedite the end and the crash. But I think to think that that would all happen really quickly is, is, I don't agree with that at all. It's like a 30 to 50 year period where we would be living under communism before we ultimately won. Right.
so it's hard to say oh yeah like let them come in let them label us all criminals let them take
our jobs let them kick the industry out i i don't you know i'm not excited about like working with
the government i mean we started to get away from the government completely but there's gotta be
a happy medium where we don't all end up in jail
yeah that's true
no one wants to go
on that note
this is Bitcoin
sent I brought to you by Byte Federal
go bank yourself
they got the point of sale of the crypto wallet
and the Bitcoin ATM where you could buy
spot Bitcoin
and take it into self-custosity
or use their wallet
let's
get into the show
alright
Let's be real, right?
Phrasing Telegram for launching a Bitcoin wallet.
We're going to see you soon.
I've always felt like...
Bitcoin, this digital currency that's out there,
that people say, oh, it might be the next big thing.
What do you think?
I think it's rat poison.
Bitcoin.
You never heard of them a few weeks ago?
Now everybody's talking about them, but is it a currency?
I don't know.
Or is it more like a stock?
Or is it a tulip bowl?
Or is it just stupid?
To me, it smells like Ponzi scheme and the greater pool theory, right?
You do like five minutes of freaking research.
Well, thanks for coming to my set talk.
Yes.
Don't buy shit, Clint.
Oh, man, I didn't get that wrong.
All right.
Bitcoin's recent rally.
Do you agree?
Is crypto finally dead?
Go to the next one.
Matter of fact, they're kind of in the Ethernet.
What are they?
There's some rumors that it's a Japanese guy, but they know that he's a fake name.
It was a pseudonym.
You're literally putting real money onto a system that we don't even know who created it.
It will come to a bad ending.
Is this the most exciting bull run ever?
Not for me.
No, it's not.
Welcome to Bitcoin Center, the fast-paced show where the debate is the story.
Nice to see you, sir, in person.
Good to see you as well.
Okay, so what's going on here? This is a big deal.
Yeah, this morning, it is a very big deal.
It's a big day and a big milestone.
reverses the course of time. We've wanted to be a one-stop shop for all your financial services
needs and one of the holes we've had for the last two years was in cryptocurrency the ability to
buy sell and hold crypto. We were not allowed to do that as a bank it was not permissible but in
March of this year the OCC came out with an interpretive letter that it's now permissible
for banks like SoFi to offer our cryptocurrency. So this morning we're launching as the only
national bank the first and only national bank the opportunity to buy sell and hold cryptocurrencies
like Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Solana.
So I was going to ask, are we just talking about three for now?
We'll expand well beyond three.
It'll be a pretty broad assortment.
We try to differentiate on being fast, having broad selection, great prices, ease of use.
So we'll try to give members, SoFi members, as much selection as they would like.
And what's the difference between going through you and going through Coinbase
or going through Robinhood or somebody else?
Yeah, there's a couple of really big differences.
First, we're a nationally chartered bank, which means we have the infrastructure,
the processes, the financial conditions that provides the safeguards that a consumer would
expect from a bank, which is going to allow us to scale responsibly. The second thing is because
we are a one-stop shop, you can do all your banking, checking and savings at SoFi, your borrowing
and your investing, and now crypto. And one of the unique things about that is when you come to SoFi
and fund your crypto investments, you'll fund them in a SoFi checking and savings account.
That checking and savings accounts deposits earn interest. Say that again, you're going to fund
it with crypto? You're going to fund your checking account with cash. And then when you buy
Bitcoin or Solano or Ethereum, the money will come straight out of your checking savings account.
So when you're not putting cash to work, it's not sitting in an account that earns no interest,
and it's not sitting in an account that's not insured. So the money will sit in an FDIC-insured
account, up to $2 million is what we offer. And when you buy, it will instantly withdraw from that
like what's up guys so we lost Cedric it's just me for right now but we are we're waiting for
Cedric to come back in the meantime what I was gonna ask Cedric was uh so SoFi has become the
first nationally chartered bank to enable Bitcoin and crypto trading so the question tonight is how
of a deal as that, right? And I think it's a pretty big deal. I mean, I kind of hate it. Cedric and I
were talking in the pre-show a little bit about this idea of spot, spot, spot, spot, spot, spot
something, right? Like all Bitcoin should be spot Bitcoin. But I don't want to be a total doomer.
It's pretty cool that this is happening. I didn't even know the details about it. I was listening
to the clip along with you guys. And so it sounds like if you have a SoFi account, you can just buy
Bitcoin. Hey, Cedric, you're back. Hey, yeah, I'm on my laptop, Mike, and my laptop camera, but
can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, it's good. Okay, cool. So Cedric made it back, and I was just trying to
decide how I felt about SoFi, Cedric, but I think you're better qualified for this one. So
So, SoFi has become the first nationally chartered bank to enable Bitcoin and crypto trading.
How big of a, do you think that's a big deal? What do you think about that?
I think it is a big deal. I think this goes along the lines with the ETF.
I think that people are, you know, for hundreds of years, we have used trusted third parties to
manage a lot of our wealth. You can look at an institution like Fidelity. So I do think that
this is crossing the line and the chasm of being more accepted. But if you notice, I was offline
for the clip, but like they're talking about trading and they're talking about more than just
Bitcoin. So I think that this is still about narrative building and getting people comfortable
with stable coins. They want you to put your, you talk a lot about having your checking account
and that's going to be in stable coins. And you could buy Bitcoin, crypto and Ethereum.
This is getting people comfortable with blockchain.
So I still think that this is more about that than actual Bitcoin.
But I think in terms of adoption, in terms of institutions, people trust, amount of their wealth.
And I think that also for collateral.
So being able to borrow against your Bitcoin.
I think it would be better in custody or self-custody and borrow against it.
But I think the first phase is having it in a trusted third party and using it as collateral there.
Yeah, I'm excited about that.
I think that that's an awesome trend we're seeing.
And also one thing that was interesting in the clip was that he talked about like putting your money to work so that it's not just sitting in an account.
And I think what he said something about like instead of having your cash sit there, you would put it in the crypto.
and so I think you're right that they're really like getting people warming people up to the idea
of not only moving in and out of crypto but like trading and having their money work work for them
which is really for the bank right and bitcoin and self-custody is also implying it's not working
for you right you know it's so yeah I think this part of making it sound like gold like a pet rock
A digital pet rock.
All right, let's go on to the next one here.
All right, Peter Schiff is back in the news.
Goldberg, Peter Schiff, insists, as usual, that Bitcoin's latest rally is an artificial bubble popped, propped up by political and Wall Street support.
Is Bitcoin lagging gold or is it the other way around?
You know what, Peter Schiff?
It was nice to meet you in Vegas.
You were at our event, right?
Probably paid to be there.
you think they paid him to be there that's my guess yes i think he might have even said something
to the effect i think they paid him to be there well nobody is you know all right i mean he's
still there right so he thinks it's worth his time i mean they couldn't have paid him that much
if he had a booth there he's selling his gold there right right and so i mean what do we have
We have gold is like 25, 26 trillion market cap still.
And Bitcoin is only two or two and a half.
But I think ultimately that ends up flipped over what time frame?
You know, is it a couple of years?
Realistically, it's probably five to 10 years.
Maybe it takes a little bit longer.
Maybe it's more like 20.
But I think in the future we'll be sitting here and those will be completely flipped.
And people will say, why would I hold gold?
Um, and the reality, which is maybe a little harsh, but a lot of people that are in gold,
they're going to pass away one day.
The people that are still holding in gold and really convicted about it.
Um, and as those people pass away, I mean, young people are not holding gold.
There's no way that that market is going to maintain itself.
Do you think that gold running this much is an indication that Bitcoin could still have
a major rally here?
I do.
I think we've been in this crab market, and I don't really think we've had a major...
I don't think there's been a bull market at all, to be honest.
Yeah, we're getting these little new all-time highs, but I'm waiting for the volatility to come back.
Give me a big run-up and then a huge crash.
Yeah, that'd be fun.
All right, let's move on to the next one here.
It's that.
What is a security is we're trying to fit something into a wrong framework.
RAOUL PAL Yeah, Raoul, that's what the crypto guys
RAOUL PAL Because anybody can buy a house.
If you say it's a property, everybody should be able to buy it.
RAOUL PAL Yeah, but Raoul, if I created my own Mikey
coin and then I pumped it on Twitter and I dumped it on the retail population after I
gave a bunch to a celebrity who then told the world it was great, it's illegal and it's
unethical.
The truth of the matter is, if you have a centralized group of people creating a token
which is a security, giving it to themselves and then selling it on the market and representing it as a decentralized property.
You're crossing an ethical line and you're also crossing a legal line.
And you can't you can't avoid the ethical responsibility and the legal responsibility simply by saying.
Such a great clip. I'm so glad this is resurfacing. All it's missing is a deep sigh.
But with this clip resurfacing, with Saylor talking about the bad ethics in crypto, do you think it's resonating because he's showing where the line needs to be drawn and that there is a voice of reason amid all this questionable crypto politics invested interest?
Or is it just kind of muddying the waters?
well i mean i think there was a lot of uh great old sailor clips and euphemisms and sort of uh
guidelines that make a lot of sense and i think what he's saying there is spot on
uh what i think about is how different is micro strategy from what he's describing there
right and so um you know uh and i i think that it is legally different i think it's it is he is
he is also letting you know up front that it is a security that he's building.
Yeah.
But I do think that he's, you know, I think that part of the fervor for the products have been retail.
And I think part of the fervor for the products has, I think the future of the product is to sell to people who don't get Bitcoin,
who have money trapped in different parts of the financial ecosystem.
But I think part of the fervor to get to where we have been has been support from retail and from people who wanted access really to the properties of spot Bitcoin.
And then also got maybe accustomed to, you know, the rate of return on Bitcoin or the cager and are looking to outpace it.
You know maybe because you know they feel OK I have 10 percent in Bitcoin What if I put another 10 percent of my wealth in So I have savings I have investment And maybe they put another 10 into this other thing that they consider speculation
But I think it's-
Yeah, so the difference between investing, so saving, investing, and then gambling.
Yeah, right.
And I think you can do all that on Bitcoin, right?
And I think, you know, and I think-
Yeah, I mean, I think if you're 100% Bitcoin,
I don't think you're just saving in Bitcoin.
I think you're investing and speculating a bit on Bitcoin.
Like some of these, like MicroStrategy and some of these other sort of fiat products?
No, I'm saying if you personally, if you have 5% or 10% of your net worth in Bitcoin, you're saving in Bitcoin.
You're DCAing in Bitcoin.
If you have 10% to 50% in Bitcoin, I think you're investing in Bitcoin.
If you have 51 to 99 or 100 percent of Bitcoin, I think you're other, you know, you could say you're living on a Bitcoin standard, but I think you're also speculating on Bitcoin.
I think some people are a gamble, you think.
Right. Or trying to speed up the clock or retire early.
Right. So it's not so much a savings plan as much as, you know, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Concentrating your your worth and your wealth early on to build wealth, I think, is a good way to go about it.
So I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it or, you know, it's trying to say it pejoratively.
But I think you can use Bitcoin in a different way.
But I think you could then say, OK, how much do I have in Bitcoin?
How much do I have in Bitcoin treasury companies?
How much do I have in AI?
I mean, some of that is not just savings.
That's speculating or investing.
Sure.
And so, you know, does just living on a Bitcoin standard mean you're 100% in Bitcoin?
don't you maybe you have a company that has fiat cash flows or fiat equity stakes i mean it's hard
to be a hundred percent bitcoin yeah there's all kinds there's all sorts of different ways
that you can hold bitcoin and diversify you can also lever up can you be 150 bitcoin
so you know uh but i think in the beginning i think that these treasury companies have been
getting a lot of their capital contributions from Bitcoiners and not from non-Bitcoiners.
Yeah.
Right.
Like, I think you probably, I wonder how much of the stretch marketplace is Bitcoiners storing
cash-like instruments and using stretch instead of a money market versus pension funds.
Yeah, I don't know anybody with a pension fund.
No, but I'm saying any pension funds, are they investing in stretch?
Oh, I see.
Or is it strictly like a lot of people who are already buying spot Bitcoin and are Bitcoiners and are putting a little extra in these products instead of more Bitcoin or AI stocks or money market funds?
You know, or is it actually attracting capital from trapped capital from non Bitcoiners?
You know?
Yeah.
I think probably both, but.
We'll see.
Yeah, maybe both.
I don't know.
Let's move on to Square. Square brings lightning to 4 million merchants. Yeah, I want to talk about this. Will letting customers pay via lightning at 4 million Square merchants with fees waived through 2026 and instant USD conversion spark a wave of Bitcoin payment adoption? Or will most businesses start auto converting to dollars and leave Bitcoin's circular economy a work in progress?
i think this is awesome first of all you know there's some people that are angry on twitter
i don't know why they're always angry um but these things take time and i think it's a huge
step forward you know if you look at stake and shake as one of the first big adopters they were
initially converting all of their bitcoin into fiat immediately but we saw you know with the
success and the support that they had. Now they have ultimately pivoted and they're holding Bitcoin
and they're growing a Bitcoin treasury. So that's fantastic. And I think you can really
orange pill a lot of merchants and businesses one at a time.
Well, how is this going to work with taxes though? I mean, is anyone going to-
Oh, that's a nightmare.
there so i i can see why merchants would love this i mean there's less fees there's no fees
on this for a year that's huge you can even auto convert to dollars so you can
get the best of both worlds you don't have uh pay or fraud right no uh uh chargebacks right so i
mean but like does that mean that i don't think bitcoins are going to go in necessarily i mean
they're spending some money at steak and chicken. But, but I think when you start talking about
like maybe TVs and things that are at a higher price point, I just think people are not going
to be as hungry to do that. And I don't know if the U S is ever going to make transactions.
I think that's the coup. That's like the whole thing.
Yeah. I do minimum, a de minimis or whatever it's called.
That would be a start, but like moving towards treating Bitcoin as nice as the dollar and
treating it like money, I don't think it's going to
happen by the U.S. government.
I think it's a little overly optimistic to think
that that's going to happen.
Do you think Jack has
insider knowledge
at his level with coming out of Twitter?
He might.
We know they were
cooperating with the government
for many years.
Read the Twitter files.
Don't you think this would be like...
Well, I mean...
I mean, I would think that the government would say, hey, you got to figure out all the accounting for this, the tax implications, because you're letting customers spend Bitcoin.
Yeah.
I would think, I'm surprised they haven't put responsibility on to Square.
I think it could get really interesting.
I think the more adoption of this that we see, the more interesting it's going to get.
And that could be positive or negative.
You know, we could end up forcing some sort of tax exemption or we could see some sort of like Visa and MasterCard are known for suing people.
And, you know, they really have government backing.
So it could get pretty wild.
I think time will show what comes out of this.
But. All right.
Well, all right.
You're watching Bitcoin Center, like and subscribe.
Let's go on to the lightning round.
we got topic five oh i got topic five i'm always screwing that up all right
all right you go okay so there's an imf debt alarm
with the imf confirming global debt has quietly climbed to 100 of gdp are we entering the
gradually then suddenly phase of fiscal decline, where decades of abstract warnings finally
translate into reality. And Bitcoin's case as a parallel system moves from theory to observation.
How do you think this unfolds in real time? What do you think is going on here?
I think that they're just getting people comfortable with the debasement trade
and inflation. I think that this is more about just getting people comfortable with the level
of debt. Yeah. Which is high. Which is high. I mean, it's going parabolic. Yeah. But you can
inflate that away in nominal terms. I don't know. And I just, I just, yeah, I don't, I just think
that they're really getting people comfortable with the fact that their money is inflating away.
And I don't think we're going to get to hyperinflation necessarily anytime soon, but I think they have to get people comfortable with 3%, 4% inflation and maybe even actually probably higher in real estate.
Way higher.
In reliable goods.
Did we lose you, Cedric?
I was going to ask Cedric to give us a quick 30-second explanation of the debasement trade.
So we'll see if we get him back here.
I don't know what that means.
i know the imf is an evil organization so i'm going to talk about that till we get cedric back
uh it is not an ngo it is like an inter government agency um the international monetary fund
And so what Cedric was saying is it was interesting. And I would agree with the fact that they're just trying to get people comfortable with their money being worth less and less. You know, I disagree about hyperinflation. I think we're nearing a point of hyperinflation and that it's going to happen really fast. It's going to happen in our lifetimes.
I mean, if you're here for the next 10, it could take 20 years, but I think it's less.
With the amount of money that they're going to print, there's no avoiding hyperinflation, right?
You have to look at what has happened over and over and over everywhere else in the world.
Look at the timeline in Venezuela and how quickly they went from one of the world's leading economies to where they are now.
I think we have a question in the chat.
No, I was just inviting people to leave questions in the chat.
Ah, okay.
Let us know if you guys are still here and if you have any questions.
I have questions for Cedric.
We got to get him back in here.
I pulled up a little definition of the debasement trade for you.
Oh, great.
Okay, so let's see.
What does this even say?
uh what drives the debasement trade is an investing strategy focused on protecting wealth
from the declining value of major currencies all right so they're definitely doing that
due to government debt expansion money printing we know that they're doing all that
what does it look like like what are they doing you know what i have a debasement trade
turn your dollars into Bitcoin. Governments are increasingly borrowing, expanding.
Four tactics. Let's look at that. On the sell side, investors reduce holding of government bonds.
Yes. Don't hold bonds, obviously. On the buy side, they accumulate assets like gold, silver,
crypto by crypto we mean bitcoin foreign stocks real estate okay so you hold assets
Paul talks about this a lot I always think you know whatever that means so basically
just trading your worthless fiat currency for assets makes sense everybody should be doing that
right a lot of people are priced out of real estate is like traditional one of the most common
assets and people are getting priced out of that but i think we have bitcoin that's why we have
bitcoin cedric you're back yeah i can't see you guys can you hear see me i you can see you you're
a little fuzzy and we can hear you i was just uh i was saying that i was gonna ask you to help some
of us understand the debasement trade because paul talks about this all the time so we pulled up
an explanation of the debasement trade.
And it makes sense, right?
You just sell the stuff that's declining in value
and buy assets.
Yeah, but isn't it amazing how it's just like
and people are like, oh, yeah, no, that's great.
You see the game last night?
Oh, yeah.
Why are we even having a debasement trade?
Right.
It's unfortunate how many people just don't pay any attention.
It's going to be hyperinflation the moment
any mainstream media talked about a debasement trade.
Yeah.
And people are just like, oh, it's okay.
That's all right.
It's just like it's a buy stuff that goes up.
What do you think is the timeline?
You said that you don't think we see hyperinflation anytime soon, which I disagree with.
Really?
Oh, yeah.
I think, I mean, certainly in our lifetimes, but I think less than 10 years.
What do you think?
A dollar can last that long?
the way that i mean yeah i do i think if they can get everybody to continue to price things in
dollars and the key there is to price bitcoin in dollars to price bitcoin in dollars you keep
dollars alive as a unit of account and everything has to go through dollars yeah what about when
they start pricing oil in bitcoin petro bt doesn't it does uh no they're not going to price it in
bitcoin they might settle it in bitcoin okay but they're not going to have quicker on the tv
i don't know i don't think so all right they want to make it a digital pet rock they want all the
bitcoin to be in the etfs or the treasury companies and they're going to say hey look
that nuclear grade money you can hold that you be insane you you and and and they start especially with the value of bitcoin going up people hold a a hundred thousand dollar coin you can hold a
coin you can't hold a 10 million dollar coin fair enough no you're gonna try to win about price
what it's an interesting point about pricing things and i still think they'll have something
where they'll say something along the lines of like,
you know, all the MicroStrategy coins
were hacked by North Korea last night.
So our enemies now have, you know, too many coins.
Right.
And you shouldn't hold your own coins
because North Korea is going to take them.
So it's a major propaganda campaign.
Yeah, like sort of like a digital 6102.
Yeah.
You know, you should keep them in the ETF
that's better for the country.
It's better for you, you know, and they'll recover the the North, the coins from North Korea because it was really they took them on themselves.
Right. And then they could they could backstop the price of the shares with fiat.
Which will make people feel like they backstopped Bitcoin.
I need the it's like, thanks, I hate it.
I think they'll also say, look, you keep your fidelity, you keep your Bitcoin at fidelity.
you keep your Bitcoin in Bank of America.
And this is where I got into a disagreement
with Preston Pish about this.
I still think this will happen.
It'll be FDIC insured.
Well, SoFi just said that in the clip that we played.
Well, so Preston was like,
that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard
because you can't fractionally reserve.
You can't give them Bitcoin.
No, but they can give you dollars.
Right.
So if Fidelity loses your Bitcoin,
you'll get dollars.
Yep.
Well, they just said they were doing that at SoFi.
So I think you've been proven right.
Well, so far, that was a little tricky.
I think they were saying that your cash and your checking account would be FDIC insured before, you know, up to $2 million, they said.
But I don't think they were inferring that if you buy crypto or Bitcoin with it, that that also is FDIC insured.
I don't know. We'll see.
We will see.
But I think that they will try to insure those things with dollars.
Yeah, I agree with that.
I think that they will absolutely ensure that they don't want Bitcoin circular economies.
They just want you to like store value to basement trade, not method of payment.
That's why it's very interesting what Dorsey's doing.
Yeah.
You know, he got a green or he's zealot, you know, we'll see.
All right, let's move on to the next one.
All right, now I think it's lightning round.
All right, well, there you go.
All right, so I already started reading that.
I think.
Where are we?
Oh, man.
All right.
Miners under pressure.
So Bitcoin's hash rate hits record highs above 1.1 Zeta hash.
Is that how you say it?
And mining difficulty surged to an all-time peak, 156 trillion,
even as prices and fees slumped.
Squeezing profits.
Are we in a new down cycle for miners?
Well, there's always a cycle, right?
I mean, I don't think that the four-year cycle is completely dead.
Maybe it's less correlated to price.
But in terms of like a cycle for hash rate, it's always going to be cyclical.
And you've got to be good.
The miners have got to be.
They're not getting the ROI they expected by this point in the cycle.
I think they were expecting this kind of hash rate, but with like prices double or triple this.
It's a tough industry.
and you know i think it's admiring it's i love mining because you got to be smart you got to be
like know what you're doing right it is not meant for everyone to survive yeah no it's brutal and
we'll see how that goes a lot of capex a lot of uh leverage in that industry so but ai i think is
kind of come to their support all right it's merging all right so we've got finance founder
CZ says
government officials
are now calling
crypto hard money behind
closed doors. Is this a sign that
Bitcoin's monetary framing
is seeping into policy?
No, I don't want to spend any time on
CZ and give him any air.
I think he's
an interesting character.
He's lasted this long.
He has built an empire.
You think he's a scammer?
They do.
all right i'm i don't think everything i think i don't think everything he says is necessarily
wrong or a scam yeah but i and i don't i don't think he's even i don't know i wonder if it's a
front for the chinese government the whole the whole thing could be i that could be but you know
i was glad i mean the charges that they brought against him were nonsense like not complying hard
enough i agree i agree all right i'm glad we agree on that i was surprised he settled with them and
even spent any time in u.s soil in jail yeah so i don't know all right but i don't want to give too
much air let's move on to the next one all right ledger eyes ipo ledger is reportedly preparing for
new york ipo amid booming hardware wallet sales can the not your keys not your coins mantra win
over public markets or will investors shy from bitcoin self-custody via volatility
i think that all these uh bitcoin and crypto companies we see that are ipoing i think a lot
of them are going to be successful especially the ones that have underlying businesses which
ledger does so you know what is ledger's moat what is ledger's moat like no like what what is
their defense from other competitors coming into the hardware wallet business and
you know eating some smarget share i i don't feel i think it's interesting
from um another crypto company kind of you know going into trad fine going into wall street but
i don't think they're a future unicorn oh no no no definitely not agreed on that
All right, let's move on.
Okay.
YouTube's mega fraud.
A Spanish crypto influencer's arrest for $300 million fraud scheme sent shockwaves through the community.
Could Bitcoin still suffer a major crash like the one we saw after FTX?
Or is the network too institutionalized now?
oh then now i mean bitcoin could still go through some major valve downward volatility
either at this point price point or higher one but i i don't think that this is anything
this was like um just a regular old ponzi using any attractive asset to lure and do uh unsuspecting
investors so much bigger to crash to make us crash the way we did i think yeah and i think
think this is sort of um tangential to bitcoin this is just they were luring people in on the
internet to give up money and they were never buying anything with it so right um yeah let's
just move on from that one uh un launches blockchain academy so the un is scaling its
blockchain education initiative for government officials worldwide could this top-down crypto
literacy effort legitimize bitcoin at the state level or dilute it into just another administrative
tool stupid i think it's stupid it's just stupid and i i think neither you know like
people have formed opinions and if they think it's for criminals they're going to keep labeling it
that way and if they are going to believe that it's legitimate then they you know they'll come
to that one yeah look at the organization behind blockchain right crypto stable coins this is very
disheartening. I think they have a lot, they have a much bigger soapbox than Bitcoiners right now.
They do.
Self-custody or anything like that. They're entered the conversation in a positive way
and they've completely usurped it. I'm not saying Bitcoiners are listening to this,
but this is what is being sort of spoon fed to the masses, I think.
Yeah, it's true. A lot of Bitcoiners don't want to admit this, but we need to accept this and
conquer it because right now they're winning the narrative war.
Well, it seems like Bitcoin is laying down the sword.
Yeah.
And just waiting for the next.
I don't know.
Let's move on to the next one here.
Jordy Bisser.
We've got more economic data.
University of Michigan consumer confidence continues to collapse.
This is the current conditions.
We made new all-time lows.
This is back to 1980.
I just want to remind people, when you hear bubble talk,
This is where we were just before the Nasdaq bubble peaked in 2000.
This is where we were at the bottom of the great financial crisis.
Here's where we are now, below that level, nowhere near that level.
This is not a bubble.
This is a K-shaped economy that is seeing profit margins go higher because the labor market is under pressure
and because the adoption of AI is leading to more efficiency.
The crypto bubble.
So he argues that collapsing consumer confidence isn't proof of a bubble, but evidence of a divide.
AI-driven economy.
So far, if fears this high while profits and efficiency keep rising, are we witnessing the most misunderstood expansion in decades or the calm before a social breaking point?
I don't know what he's saying, to be honest.
we lose i think we did oh no all right i'm gonna tell you guys what i think of jordy viscer
uh nothing i don't think of him at all i've never heard of this guy uh it's something about this is
not a bubble i don't know well i missed the clip yes back cedric what do you think of jordy viscer
uh i mean i like that ipo piece i missed this clip that you guys just played i didn't get to
see it um well uh i'm kind of curious because he seems to he seems to have some contrarian takes
and i think he's saying that the ai boom is real yeah he this is not a bubble um i i have to say
i've never heard of him i just told everybody i don't even know who he is so i don't really care
what he's saying. But basically, I guess he's saying it's not a bubble and AI is going to keep
driving the economy and something about some K-shaped chart. Well, I think there might be a
case that even some of the equities we're seeing are in a bubble, but that AI will deliver down the
road um and so that's i think the deliver returns for people in dollars sort of like you know the
internet was in a bubble from 2000 to 2001 but like amazon came through that and went on to
massive games after that sure you know and you still didn't have social media and everything
after that came you know social media came after that so i still think that ai can deliver i just
don't think that we're going to see the returns on the capex being spent right now i don't even
think they can turn on i don't think they have power for all the chips they're buying no they
don't and i think they're doing a lot of financial wizardry with lending and you know did you see
the tweet uh there was a tweet from these kids that raised like two billion dollars and they
were faking their ai they were like manually transcribing did you see that right so like
like you know when google came out in like 1998 um the smart money understood that an algorithm
was going to take down yahoo and you know become the search engine of the future but it took like
four to six years for the market to see that and google and yahoo literally have like 50 people in
room like writing down everything on the internet right but they were spending you know they were
worth billions and they were spending hundreds of millions on advertising and it wasn't until
2005 that i think google surpassed yahoo and market cap right you know but the smart money
knew google would um but you know i'm sure the smart money bet on some yahoo in the short term
too my point is that maybe ai will deliver long term i just i think we are in a bubble now
so let's move on to the next one ah lynn alden
let's see what uh you're gonna ask me about i think this one's yours oh man let me pull i don't
have this one nothing stops this train i can tell you that nothing stops this show i mean
Lynn Alden connects 2025 repo turmoil, the 2019 flashpoint.
As the Fed's standing repo facility takes center stage again,
Lynn Alden draws parallels to the 2019 liquidity crunch.
Could this renewed dollar stress push more capital towards Bitcoin,
or is Bitcoin still just watching from the sidelines?
What do you think?
Stops this train, Cedric.
Yeah, okay.
When's the train going to get going?
It's on its way.
Well, see.
You know, I do, you know, everyone's expecting the big print.
Yeah.
You know, that makes me worry that we're not going to get a big print.
Oh, we will.
Don't worry not being mean that we need or don't need or I'm chiming in.
I'm just saying that, like, maybe it's delayed.
Maybe there's a lot of pain before the big print.
I don't know.
I think if they really come through, not come through,
but if they really do this $2,000 tariff thing,
I mean, I think that that is like gearing up to print.
That's the only reason that they're even looking at that.
That's not a certainty, though, is it?
It's not a certainty, but, you know, I bet it happens.
I think it happens.
I think we just see a repeat of all the COVID nonsense.
I mean, Bitcoin went up like, what, 4% on the news of a $2,000 stimulus check.
And, you know, what if they come out tomorrow and say, look, we can't do the stimulus check.
I mean, Bitcoin could go down 8%, you know.
I mean, I'm not short term trading. I'm just saying, you know, and this could go on for another year or two.
You know, I don't know. I don't I don't honestly I don't care about these little price movements.
And what if, you know, because I mean, I think they need to print probably like 15 trillion dollars compared to what they've already done.
And so what if they need markets to really tank before?
Like, remember, the printing last time came after a 50 percent drop in Bitcoin price.
Yeah, but that was a flash.
I mean, it only dropped for 12 hours.
Yeah.
Well, drastically, right?
I don't think they're going to allow that much pain in the market.
You see all these clowns talking about the economy is doing great.
But if there's not that much pain, I think they just they print gently.
I just don't think they're going to – I'm saying it's possible that we just don't get this big print right away.
That's all I'm trying to say.
Slow and steady.
Or, yeah, or just slow and painful.
And then really painful.
Like it has to be just so much pain before they can print that much.
You can't print when all the markets are at all-time highs.
I'm not saying you can't.
I'm just saying I don't think they're going to –
Well, they can, and I think they –
All right, let's move on.
All right.
Okay, this one is mine.
Sailor launches Euro-denominated instrument.
MicroStrategy's launch of its first Euro-denominated preferred stock, STRE,
targets institutional demand abroad.
But is this a clever capital raise or a quiet signal that Bitcoin's biggest corporate backer
is eyeing European liquidity to fuel more Bitcoin buys I think it both I mean obviously I mean it a nice raise and they going to see what market appetite there is for these products around the world i think what this really is interesting
is does this threaten the bitcoin treasury companies in europe so i think a big thesis
is it going to be one major player in each capital market right so uk japan etc so hong kong so does
this destroy you know sort of the european based ones um you know will they will they complement
each other will europe have an appetite for this we'll see um i think they're just trying to see
what sticks you know um they come up with some great stuff you know we'll see let's move on to
the next one here trump's vows crypto dominance for america trump proclaimed his focus on making
america the global leader and crypto leader in cryptocurrency but does an administration champion
Bitcoin and pardoning industry figures like Justin Sun and CZ herald a true embrace of
crypto's ethos?
Will government-led dominance clash with the very decentralization that Bitcoin stands
for?
What do you think?
I would love for this to be true.
I mean, Bitcoin is supposed to represent freedom.
The United States is supposed to represent freedom.
But there's a lot of problems happening everywhere.
and I don't know that it really comes through with in the United States with like a government
top-down situation I think um I'm more bullish on like things happening in El Salvador where
they've sort of you know I mean say whatever you want about El Salvador but I think it's a better
approach I think saying we're going to accept Bitcoin we're going to be a Bitcoin country and
And then letting people build on top of that is a better approach to whatever Trump is trying to do.
Well, I mean, it's I think it's unfortunate in the sense that I think that certain political parties are getting tied to Bitcoin.
And I think that's a threat in the near term with elections and sort of the political pendulum.
And I think his his his the regime sort of like take on Bitcoin has been much more about crypto.
So this is where the crypto capital is stable coin capital.
Um, they're going after Tornado, so it's not real freedom.
Right.
So I think we're just, I think we've been Trojan horse in a lot of ways on so many fronts.
Yeah, it really doesn't have anything to do with Bitcoin, you know.
And we're getting the opposite of the Bitcoin ethos here.
So, all right, let's move on to the next one.
all right bitcoiners joke about farming uh after bitcoin drops below 100k after bitcoin briefly plunges below six figures uh bitcoin and crypto traders flood social media with tongue memes about selling everything to buy farms in remote areas
humor aside though does this viral exit to the farms trend reveal genuine burnout with the
volatility or just the kind of cynical catharsis that signals a market bottom
I think this is, I think people are going to, I think the new luxury is going to be getting offline.
Totally. I couldn't agree more. Get yourself some chickens.
Yeah. And so I think that like Mike Alfred is just, he's bored, he's trolling, but I think that it really speaks to sort of, I think humanity is getting sick of the 24-7 burnout on things like X.
And I think it speaks to that.
I agree with that, Cedric.
So I think it's like, yeah, like if I had all the money in the world, I'd buy a farm.
And if I have no money, I'd buy a farm.
Right.
We're going to return to real life.
Yeah.
I think that's what it's about.
And so you can take any signal you want from it.
The signal I get is that people are just sick of all the noise.
Yep.
I agree with that.
disconnect your devices and get some chickens.
Yeah, that's one of the great reasons to buy spot Bitcoin
because you can just set it and forget it.
You don't have to pay attention to the political mass nations of the day.
You have to have a long view.
Yeah.
I don't know.
We'll see.
That's the end of lightning round.
You've been an awesome special guest host.
Thanks for having me, Cedric.
Big shoes to buy.
well yeah i mean paul's a stud he's got all the macro takes yeah i don't know anything about all
that but i'm happy to join you anytime yeah we'll definitely have you back uh i don't know francis
do we have any uh q a or comments from the gallery here all right h rork dash one six as funny to me
andrew ross sarkin is interviewing so fine he just released the book titled 1929 about the great
depression. Yeah, that's true. So that's, I mean, that book, I haven't read that book by Andrew,
but I mean, he's saying it feels like 1929, you know, I mean,
I haven't read it either, but it sounds interesting. I might get a copy and read it.
I think we're in a tough place and it's probably going to get worse.
I mean, think about all the optimism we had for the economy with a Trump win.
Right.
And how Murphy law means it going to be like the worst economy ever Yeah And it tough You know for people we talked about the debasement trade whatever that really means
But for really for people with assets, people in the top 1%, the economy is doing great.
Everything is soaring. Right. But more and more people are priced out of that.
We're seeing like the middle class done away with.
And so more and more people are not living in that reality.
They're living in more of like a Great Depression era.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, that was very not optimistic.
We'll see.
Well, coming up on the holidays, the government just opened, right?
Oh, did they?
Yay.
You didn't know?
I mean, I don't know if they opened, but didn't they come together and agree?
They just decided they would open.
Yeah, so it's opening.
um is that your optimistic take at the end Cedric because that's not optimistic
well I was enjoying the government shutdown but um I I think it is like I think that had a chance
of ruining the holidays all right so back on track we'll get the flights going again and we'll
stabilize a little I know I know a lot of people were suffering and so you know I'm not gonna root
for that but uh but yeah you could say all you want about maybe snap benefits but if we're gonna send
50 billion dollars to argentina and you know or you know however whenever we send money it's like
well if we're gonna waste money like that we could waste it on our own citizens from that
perspective right i don't think we should be sending any money anywhere so i you know right
i agree with you but it's like sort of a spectrum of like if we're gonna waste money
right you know we're already wasting money on other things so why not our own people maybe or
and i'm not saying it's a waste of money or not a waste i'm not well versed in the issue but
sure we're gonna have a happy thanksgiving and a merry christmas well there you go maybe um
we'll get a government shutdown maybe next year maybe we can get all the things that uh that
would have brought all the all right i'll root for that all right well this has been brought to
by by federal this is bitcoin center go bank yourself uh by federal atms the crypto wallet
and the point of sale um i wonder uh you know maybe the point maybe with the the square thing
maybe the point of sale for you guys will also take off you know i mean hopefully yeah more
merchants will demand uh we don't put up prefer bitcoin preferred signs i think that would be
great it would be a win-win for everyone yeah we'll see all right well until then we'll see you
guys next week live at Tuesdays at 8 p.m.