What flag theory for me is, is basically limiting your dependency on any one particular state.
We're trying to take control back by self-custody.
We are taking assets away from a centralized entity and educating ourselves on how we can
have this radical ownership.
Well, same goes for your citizenship.
If you're born in one country, you only have one citizenship.
The country basically has monopoly over you.
And only 3% of people actually live outside of the country of their birth, which makes it 97% monopoly over you.
And just this amount of dependency we have on our home country is painful because three-letter agency targeting you directly, you have nothing to do.
At 6102 on Bitcoin, you have nothing to do.
Civil unrest, you have nowhere to go.
or your country gets involved in a geopolitical instability and decides to go to war and you don't sign up for it,
well, what else are you going to do?
So just having this another country to call home is just your geopolitical hedge against your home country's government,
against government overreach, etc.
So that's how I started Plumby Passport.
I was already a Bitcoiner and I just kept talking how everybody needs a second passport.
I did not have a company. I was not selling anything.
I was just truly passionate about the fact that you can't put all your eggs in one basket.
You can't have one citizenship.
As a Bitcoiner, you must have a hedge in place.
Bitcoin. If you are listening to this right now, remember, you are still early. Find me on Noster
at primal.net slash Walker and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin on X YouTube and Rumble.
Just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram at titcoin podcast.
Head to the show notes for sponsor links. Head to substack.com slash at Walker America to get
episodes emailed to you and head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else.
Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk.
Well, Katie, welcome. Glad we were finally able to do this. It's good to have you on the show on
another fucking Bitcoin podcast. Appreciate being here. There's not...
There's not enough Bitcoin podcasts any day, any time.
40 hours per week is what we need, right?
I've been saying that until we have more Bitcoin podcasts than TradFi podcasts, we just don't have enough Bitcoin podcasts.
We're sitting here today.
Bitcoin is ripping up to new all-time highs.
It seems like a timid rip so far, though.
It's up to like 113-something or 0.113 million.
but it's like come on let's let's like let's really just like bust on through there so we
can count it this this feels like okay it's like kind of an all-time high but like
in a depreciating dollar so like is it really i don't know yeah we've seen 20 candles like what
is this three percent yeah it's all-time high something to celebrate but like let's go let's
have some fun let's turn it up to 11 just rip the fucking knob off you know yeah yeah well stoked
stoked to have you here. There's a bunch I want to cover with you. You just, you're for folks who
don't know. So you started Plan B Passport. Your company was then, it was just acquired this year,
right? Or this was last year. Okay. By Citizen X. So I mean, maybe we can just start out. I think
a lot of folks in the Bitcoin space know you, but like, how did you actually, I mean, you came to
this country from Russia, I think like nine years ago, right? You have in that time learned English,
started a family, started a business, had that business acquired,
been at every Bitcoin conference I've been to, and then probably a ton more.
How did all of this happen? How did you get to that point?
And also, how did you just do so much in that time? It's quite impressive.
It's that immigrant hustle, you know?
Yeah, immigrant hustle, for sure.
Well, I moved here as a 21-year-old, didn't fully have a plan,
came here on a tourist visa. My original plan was to actually go back to school because I never
graduated bachelor degree in Russia. And I was a professional athlete at the time. So I was like,
universities will want me. And that was true. Like I was talking to coaches in really great
universities, but they were like, okay, like just learn the language. That's all you're lacking.
You need to pass the TOEFL exam, which is Test of English as a Foreign Language.
So I came to the U.S. for the language school.
And then shortly after, I realized that, OK, if I go to college, I'll have to deal with immigration for so many years.
But I already have good enough credentials to actually apply for immigration through extraordinary abilities.
Because I was in top 20 world ranking at the time.
and usually America wants athletes to compete for America.
So I applied.
Four months later, my green card got approved.
And funny enough, I got scammed by an immigration attorney.
I paid her $12,000 to process my case, and she just ghosted me.
So that was like...
Lawyers, man.
Or fake lawyers.
I'm not sure in this case, I guess.
I have yet to find out if she was a fake lawyer or not.
She got recommended by other fellow immigrants anyway.
Right. So that was like the beginning of Plan B Passport. I had to self-represent.
And I was like, I'm kind of good at it. And I just, you know, went through the process myself,
started helping other fellow immigrants to apply. They would self-represent themselves and I would
just guide them. And it was truly just me trying to, you know, get my paperwork done here in the U.S.
and then shortly after I always knew that I would be entrepreneur like growing up in post-Soviet
world that was the only way to make it I was raised to be entrepreneur like at the age of nine
I was starting my tiny little businesses going to like a country music festival selling little
things that's how I made my first thousand dollars at the age of nine and that's how I got my first
sailboat to get into the state state team and then the next year i got into national team so
it's just it's like the snowball of yeah i i got a new boat i was able to get in the state team
then i got into national team that national team else actually got me a green card in the u.s
afterwards uh and it's just a butterfly effect how a small small wing of a butterfly causing a
full typhoon on the other side of the world. Small little details in my life as a Russian
child brought me here to be a Bitcoiner and selling passports for the last six years.
It's pretty wild just thinking of that journey. I mean, so when you had to self-represent,
you had to basically go through all of these steps. And for those of us who I did not really
realize how difficult it was to both get into America. I mean, it must like you, you know,
come across the Southern border under Joe Biden. Like I didn't realize how difficult it is to come
into America the right way until I met Carla and started learning about her experience and learning,
you know, she was born in Romania. Her dad was a defector from communism there because communism
sucks and made it over here like eventually. But it was, I mean, she came over here when she
was very young, just a couple of years old. And it took, I think, 13 or 14 years at least for her
to become a citizen. And that was after her dad having been here for longer, her mom being here,
that paying taxes out the ass, like you, you have to do a lot. It's not just, again, unless you're,
you know, finding your way in under Joe Biden, but like people don't, Americans don't understand
like it is difficult to do things the right way.
And I mean, I'm sure that has been your experience as well,
given you had to self-represent right from the start.
Yeah, well, American immigration,
there is a lot of legal ways to get paperwork,
to get everything in order in the U.S.
But the department that manages all of it
is honestly kind of a shit show with their operations.
I mean, they're super backlogged.
That's one thing.
They're not leveraging technology enough. The people, regular clerics have no idea what to do.
But also, we had like such a crazy switch in the last election cycle from one side of the policies is like anybody who applies for political asylum, we take your application.
You come live here and maybe 10 years later, you will get to court to defend your application.
So you have spent 10 years living here to now saying no political asylum for very few things.
And not everybody can just come across the border and apply.
So and if you look what's happening now with ICE and this whole drama taking place in the U.S. immigration,
we had 20 years of really weird policies that were keep going towards more free borders.
and now we're slapping it and we're saying no this is not how it works and we're trying to clean it up
and of course there's lots of overshooting going on and what what i mean is like i mean you can't
clean up 20 years of policies and change them in four months without making mistakes and mistakes
are definitely being made people are getting pissed and uh yeah like i mentioned civil unrest
is starting based on these issues right now.
Because some people who are currently in legal status
and have no criminal records
somehow end up in ICE detention.
So that's just raising lots of questions.
And again, you can't make such big changes
without making mistakes.
So that's why we're already seeing the ambush
on ICE facilities here in Texas
just last week on 4th of July.
We see something going on in Oregon
along the same lines in the state.
In LA, Marines got deployed in the streets of LA to deal with the immigration issues, well, immigration protests.
The protests, yeah.
Yeah, so yeah, the U.S. immigration is super interesting.
It has really good policies, truly attracting capital and attracting talent.
America is one of the biggest importer of talent from all around the world.
And it's great.
Like, that's what you want.
That's one of the routes of sovereign individual playing out, right?
But at the same time, the U.S. immigration department needs to be, man, end the USCIS and rebuild it.
And the Fed also end the USCIS.
you know it's uh it it is pretty impressive like america is obviously like uh if you came to america
for most of america's history was a self-selector for high achieving maybe a little bit a little bit
crazy entrepreneurial risk takers like that's what built america was a bunch of people being like
i hate it over here in europe or in you know wherever i am england ireland you know it doesn't
matter. I hate it here. This sucks. I want to go make something of myself because there's no
opportunities for me to do that here. And you can do that. And that's self-selection for risk takers,
for people that are going to be, again, not, man, they're breaking the mold usually,
is what has made America so great. And like, it should continue. Like you want that to continue.
You want to attract the best people to your country. And I think now that people are less
tied than ever by needing to be in a physical location to do a job, let's say. You can work
from a laptop anywhere in the world. But ideally, as a country, you want somebody that's high
achieving to be paying taxes in your country if they're raking in a bunch of money from other
countries. So maybe we can take a little step back. Can we talk about Plan B Passport? Obviously,
your company is now acquired by CitizenX, you're part of CitizenX, but like that basic idea and
something that you've talked about a lot as like having your plan B, but also this flag theory.
Can you get into that a little bit? Like what that means? Why should people care about that?
Yeah. Well, as somebody who was born again, the post-Soviet country where the capital control is
happening, seizure of assets is a normal Tuesday. And also that my passport doesn't get me anywhere
in the world. I need to get a visa everywhere. I was prepared to be this passport lady because I
lived through all these painful experiences. But what flat theory for me is, is basically limiting
your dependency on any one particular state, right? We're trying to take control back by
self-custodying. We are taking assets away from a centralized entity and educating ourselves on how
we can have this radical ownership. Well, same goes for your citizenship. If you're born in one
country, you only have one citizenship, the country basically has monopoly over you. And only 3% of
people actually live outside of the country of their birth, which makes it 97% monopoly over you.
And just this amount of dependency we have on our home country is painful because three-letter
agency targeting you directly, you have nothing to do. A 6102 on Bitcoin, you have nothing to do.
Civil unrest, you have nowhere to go. Or your country gets involved in a geopolitical instability
and decides to go to war and you don't sign up for it. Well, what else are you going to do?
So just having this another country to call home is just your geopolitical hedge against your home
country's government, against government overreach, etc. So that's how I started 1B Passport. I was
already a Bitcoiner and I just kept talking how everybody needs a second passport. I did not have
a company. I was not selling anything. I was just truly passionate about the fact that you can't put
all your eggs in one basket. You can't have one citizenship as a Bitcoiner. You must have a hedge
in place. So I kept talking about it on Twitter for like a year and a half and people kept asking
questions. And at this point, I was already pretty educated on what the world has to offer
on a capitalist basis, like pay-to-play citizenship.
So I just kept telling people where to go, what to do.
And I realized that I have some audience, I have expertise,
and I just started Plan B Passport.
I mean, it's something that I think a lot of Americans,
maybe myself included, don't think of a lot,
this needing to have this optionality.
Because again, we're born with a strong passport.
like you know like like this arguably you know and you could probably debate this because you
know a lot more about passports than i do but like the strongest passport in the world or at least
one of them like it has been for a very long time like everybody wants that american passport it's
why people flock here in droves that is not the case for much of the world like you were born with
a weak passport like many people are born with a weak passport and so i think you know it's it's
hard for Americans to wrap their mind around the fact that like, oh, yeah, you as an American,
you don't need visas to go most places. Most other countries in the world, like if you want to come
to America, you need a visa. You want to go a lot of places, you need a visa. Like it's not as easy
as just like, you know, showing up. Here's my American passport. Let me in your country. Thank
you very much, sir. Like it's just not the case. Let's talk about using Bitcoin the way it's meant
to be used. Self-custodial, lightning fast and ready for the real world. That's exactly what
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like it's meant to be used. That's B-I-T-K-I-T dot T-O. I got rejected on the U.S. visa prior to
coming here. I got rejected and then I had to reapply and it takes $400 and four weeks of wait
and an interview and providing your financial information,
like bank statements and buying tickets,
showing them the return tickets.
Yeah, it's a whole process.
It's a due diligence on you for sure.
And I've read on Twitter recently
that you had 17% chance of being born in India,
which is very weak passport, very weak passport.
So yeah, your chances to be born
with one of the most desirable passports in the world in one of the still most desirable locations in the world are not that big And that why you probably never thought about hedging
against your home country government,
because you had it good for a very long time.
This was the place to go.
This is where the entire world was immigrating to,
the country of immigrants, for a reason.
The ambitious people come to the U.S.
And it is still the case.
In 2025, it's still a very desirable location.
And most of my clients do not relocate from America.
They stay here.
They enjoy their lifestyle, but they're hedging.
They're just making sure that there is a plan B in place for their entire family.
They either acquire it through investment or they acquire it through, let's say, you have some ancestral ties to Europe.
Your children can still get Romanian citizenship through Carla, right?
and sometimes it can go two three generations down um which people utilize this option like
you have great grandparents from poland go get polish citizenship just uh just to hedge
let's see if i fixed it i think i did can you still hear me the sound is much better yeah yeah
you know this is what happens when i don't have a producer i don't have somebody to check to be
like hey uh you are on the wrong microphone so now now now we're better um but but yeah so i mean
it's tough. I think people also, there's this feeling that like, okay, getting another passport
is like out of reach for me. Like this is something that like only people who have $5 million or,
you know, exceptional ability. I don't even know if they still are doing that one in the US. Maybe
you can talk about that as well. But like this feeling like, oh, come on. Like I can't possibly
be able to afford that. I don't have 5 million or a couple million lying around, but there are
other paths to this, right? So can you maybe talk about like, maybe just like, how do you go through
this with clients? Like, what do you look for? What kind of questions do you ask? What kind of
questions should people ask themselves maybe to figure out what reasonable options do I have?
Maybe some people do have that. I mean, a lot of people have a lot of money. And Bitcoiners
increasingly more so, right? But maybe they don't have a couple million to blow on something. What
what other questions, what other options are out there? How can people go about this?
Yeah. So I always say flat theory is a security model. So when you come up with your Bitcoin
security, you consider what are the tools out there, right? You look into, there is a cold
card, there's foundation device, there is a paper wallet, there is a seat plate, and you just
play around your attack vectors, what you are willing to spend on your security model,
what you actually need, what are your goals, etc. Do you need an inheritance plan?
And then you customize this model. So same goes for your needs and attack vectors
when you consider your flag theory. So of course, it does depend on your net worth, right? Because
there's a handful of countries that offer citizenship through investment. And only
citizenship by investment truly allows you pick and choose citizenship in under a year, right?
Because that's true capitalism applied to nation state services.
So that we're talking about countries like Serbia, Caribbean offshore jurisdictions, El Salvador, Argentina is launching in a couple of months.
So Turkey would be another one.
And you can actually pick and choose considering what are your geopolitical risks, what's your home country government, etc.
Now, we're talking about $300,000 average check or so.
I'd even say even more so, closer to $400,000 on average.
And is that for either investment or in those cases, direct payment to that government in question?
Depends on the jurisdiction.
So with Turkey, you buy real estate, $400,000 worth of it.
With Caribbean islands, it's mostly donation.
El Salvador, $1 million donation. So depending on the country, and by the way, I'm talking about like a family offering, right? So it's not that per family member. It's you do one donation and under this one donation, you can qualify main applicants, spouse, children under 30 years old in some cases if they're unmarried, your parents who are 55 years old plus. So like three generations can go under the same donation.
So big families apply together quite often.
And then, again, depending on jurisdiction, you can consider who can be dependent.
But then what else do you have in your flag theory toolbox?
You have citizenship by descent.
You can't choose because that depends on where your ancestors are coming from.
But most countries in Latin America will allow you to get citizenship if your grandparents were born there.
A lot of countries in Europe, almost all of them will allow you to get citizenship if it was parent or grandparent.
Some jurisdictions will go back as far as four generations, as long as the lineage has not been broken.
So we do genealogical research on behalf of our clients to know all the life facts, like when they move to the U.S., when the naturalization happens, when the marriage happens, to consider if they qualify for the citizenship by descent.
Of course, on top of it, we have actual relocation and naturalization, right? So just like I moved to the US, got my permanent residency, and then we'll get my citizenship. You could move, let's say, to Mexico tomorrow, get yourself residency based on financial solvency and based on showing your income from abroad.
they will welcome you as a resident because you're earning money elsewhere and bringing it to Mexico
and then after five years of being a resident and spending some time there in the last two
you will be able to apply for naturalization and become a citizen of Mexico too and that works also
for majority of the world so as long as you legally move to the country usually spend five
years there you are able to apply for citizenship so there are many routes that will allow you to
get citizenship and just like for me i used citizenship through exception basically right
or like based on my skills skill-based immigration is one of my favorite topics as well because do
uh do podcasters qualify for that or is that usually uh usually not the case they do like
really yeah go to dubai you will probably be able to get uh the residency there based on your media
appearances. Wow. I was halfway joking, but good to know. Okay. Yep. So it is very interesting.
And citizenship by investment is a true capitalism applied to nation state services, right? And
like this pair of Bitcoin plus citizenship through investment is truly the union of
sovereign individual because now we have the money that can be moved across borders very easily.
And we have individuals who are willing to cross borders for better life. And by better life,
I also mean things like lower taxes, better regulatory environment, free speech, and things
like that. So now with their lack of ability to control the capital, because we can move across
borders with 12 words in our head, they actually have to start competing, not just preventing us
from leaving, not just gatekeeping the capital. They actually have to start competing for the
fruits of our labor, for our capital. And that's what we're seeing happening right now. Like El
Salvador just turning around the country and saying, hey, we are actually pro-economic freedom.
We're going to say zero corporate tax for 10 years. Of course, we're going to see Google and
what other, NVIDIA and Tether moving to El Salvador because you open the doors for businesses,
you let them build, they come and build.
We're going to say you can come and be a citizen of El Salvador
and we are actually taking a strong stand
against whatever bullshit is happening in Europe.
Well, come be a citizen for nine bitcoins.
And that's how they're going to stack.
They're attracting capital, they're attracting citizens,
and people are paying the price for that.
And that's how I see the nation-state race for stacking bitcoin
that will evolve.
Like right now we see public companies issuing shares to buy Bitcoin.
Well, El Salvador can't issue US dollars to buy Bitcoin.
They don't have access to money printer,
just like most of the world doesn't have access to money printer
because their currency is already very weak.
The US dollar is getting weaker by the day.
So they can't just print money to buy Bitcoin.
They have to provide some value and they have to bring in capital.
what is the one asset they can issue in order to buy Bitcoin?
Well, that's a citizenship.
So we see El Salvador being the first country in Latin America
launching the citizenship by investment program.
And now we see Argentina saying that they are going to launch a citizenship program too.
So this is a true sovereign individual thesis playing out.
The end of nation states, the true capitalism applied to government services.
Come, bring your capital, pay to play citizenship, use our nation state services, pay zero capital gains taxes on Bitcoin, pay zero corporate taxes.
And here we are.
That's that's how this competition starts.
It definitely is like the very much the sovereign, excuse me, sovereign individual thesis.
It also reminds me of you.
Have you read the book Snow Crash?
No, I have not read that.
It's outstanding.
uh you i think you would you would enjoy it for this perspective as well um it's it's like a it's
a classic it's basically uh the author like invented the term the metaverse like before
metaverse was all shit coining like this was back in like the oh gosh like the 80s i think he wrote
this uh but one of the one of the concepts in there is that basically the nation state is gone
but the u.s government is like a couple of blocks it's like one tiny little thing um and then like
that's the united states of america it's like this tiny little suburb basically and then the rest of
it is just all these basically nation state corporations. They're offering services like,
and if you want to pay more, you get better services, you know, like these crazy robot
guard dogs that will destroy people on your behalf. So like it's, it's very, and he paints
it in a somewhat like dystopian lens, but I don't think it necessarily has to go that way. Like
governments should be service providers. That should be like, if you're paying taxes, you should
be getting some services out of that. It shouldn't just be like, you know, you're, Hey, let me,
yeah, let me, yeah, let me just take 40% or 50% of everything you earn at the point of kind of a
hidden gun. And to the people who say like, well, they're not actually confiscating your money under
the threat of violence. It's like, try not paying your taxes and then try resisting arrest. When the
armed IRS agents come to your house to arrest you, they will shoot you and then you will die.
And so it's like that it only takes a couple of hops to get in a very bad situation.
And I'm kind of curious, you know, are the majority of your clients, I mean, if you can like talk about this, but like, do you have most of your clients that are like Americans looking for second, second or third or fourth passports elsewhere? Or is it people from all over? I mean, like, where is your biggest customer base from as their mother country?
100% America.
I mean, I'm not saying 100%, but like the majority is definitely America.
I would say 60% to 70% Americans.
And the number was higher until the Canadian election.
Now Canadians are taking a big chunk of the pie.
And then the rest is just usually some Europeans and some people with very weak passports like Nepal, India, etc.
But yeah, Americans are definitely top of the list.
partially because my content is in English.
I'm an American myself.
The distribution channels are usually towards Americans.
But also if you look at the statistics of the Caribbean islands,
Americans has been like a really, really growing audience,
really growing purchasing chunk of the pie over the last eight years.
Okay. And in terms of, so you mentioned the Caribbean islands,
is that kind of a go-to place for a lot of Americans? Can you talk at all about like,
because obviously you can, there's a lot of options to choose from. Some are better than others.
How do you go about that process? I mean, let's say from the citizenship by investment lens,
where basically you have the capital, you can take your, you know, you're not worried about
the ancestry or whatever. You just, you have money and you want to be able to go anywhere.
How do you pick what is going to be best or which ones are best? Or like, how do you think about that?
Yeah, you have to keep track of the current geopolitical environment, as well as you have to understand your attacks and threats, right? Attack vectors and threats.
Caribbean island is just easy go-to for a true plan B passport that is truly just a hedge in case of emergency.
You are not expecting this emergency to take place. You are not considering the very specific path where the emergency is going to come from.
You just civil unrest, geopolitical instability, offshore jurisdiction, two hours flight from Miami, you get St. Keith's Antigua passport.
You're good.
300 grand for your entire family.
In under a year, you get the citizenship.
Now, if we start looking into what's happening in the geopolitics, there are two parts of the world that I'm truly bullish on.
it's Balkans and Latin America right now,
simply because they don't seem to get into this whole agenda
of the surveillance is for your safety, all that.
They just live their lives.
They truly, and both of them still have this anti-socialism,
antibodies in their DNA because they've tried it quite recently
in the last two generations.
They know where it leads.
So they're not taking that route. So from this country, what options do I have? We have Serbia, citizenship to exception, going to end up around 400,000 euro for youth, spouse and kids under 18. Or El Salvador that is taking a strong stand in their freedom, economic freedom and individual freedom kind of stand.
so that's a million dollar for you spouse and kids under 18.
Now we also have Turkey and with Turkey it's like a layer of cultural and religious protection there
so if you think that you are part of a group that will specifically be targeted by U.S. government
because of your cultural belief Turkey probably could be a good hedge for you.
So usually we just brainstorm together with a client just like that
consider the net worth
consider what amount of money you are willing
to spend, what's your timeline
like do you need passport in two months
well you have one option
which is El Salvador
they can move that quickly
their due diligence
they leverage technology
they're the most
advanced citizenship program in the world
right now because they can get you
a citizenship in two months while Caribbean
Islands 12 months right now
wow yeah sorry to interrupt that just blew my mind that like any government could move that fast
yeah yeah that's um you know it's over an individual they say the smaller nation states
will be the first one to get into this game because they operate like a startup it's not a
giant machine like in the u.s um i predicted the launch of the trump card like out of blue i decided
to tweet i never tweet predictions for immigration world i just said eb5 investment-based program
will be shut down because it's full of fraud.
There will be a new program that is going to cost $5 million,
straight pass to citizenship if you want, in under six months.
And I just tweeted it, and some immigration professionals,
specifically lawyer-type people, were like,
Katie, this will never happen.
Well, two weeks later, Trump announces the gold card, or a Trump card,
with precisely $5 million price checks,
straight pass to citizenship if you want, under six months.
and i was like i have resets motherfuckers you look through your lawyer lance into your paperwork
while while i should post on twitter and i actually understand the trends that are
that are taking place in the world so um but it's been what they've been saying two weeks
until gold card and it's been months because they have to go through this entire regulatory machine
that barely moves. So yeah, that's much, much tougher task.
So, okay. So those are some of the options as far as like, as far as investment goes.
What about some of this, like the ancestor of citizenship by descent or ancestry or however
it's classified? Like, are there actually still fairly easy or not easy? Are there a number of
ways that you can do that depending on like you know if you gave your dna to 23andme for example
which you know maybe it might have been a bad idea uh but like can you like take that report
to a certain country or do you need to have like some sort of genealogy like you need to go to the
local record you know get the local records and so like how deep does that go gotta be a paper
paper trail so it's not based on dna we actually collect your birth certificate your passport right
Like your ancestor in line, which is the ancestor that connects you from you to the anchor ancestor born in the country.
For this person, we need birth certificate, marriage certificate, death certificate, if applicable.
For the next ancestor in line, same things.
And for the anchor ancestor the person who was born in another country birth records travel records to the U naturalization records in the U or Canada And we show this entire paper trail So that a bureaucratic nightmare because think about early 1900s or end of 1800s
There was no digital records of anything.
They still barely exist, and you have to go into local archives
or sometimes local church to find those records.
So we try to make it as white glass service as possible.
but it is a complete bureaucratic nightmare.
So it may take up to three years
and we may be 100% sure that you qualify
and then spend eight months
going through every archival record
in the entire country
and still not find records of your ancestors
simply because let's say they were Jewish
and they burned everything
because they were afraid of Nazis.
So it's difficult.
If you qualify,
you must try to get that citizenship.
It's a no-brainer.
Citizenship through dissent must be approached
by everybody who is qualified
because it's still a very strong passport.
It's not citizenship through investment.
It's going to cost you around $20,000, $25,000.
But you just have to do that
because then you can also keep this nationality
running in your family for your kids,
for your grandkids,
and just keep passing it down next generations, that's a legacy.
I see citizenship as a very strong new asset class.
And guess what?
There's no inheritance tax on citizenship.
So keep passing it down as your legacy.
Yeah.
Do you still, question on that,
do you still have to take language and history tests
for a descent-based passport or citizenship?
Very few countries require it.
Like Hungary would be one of them.
Slovenia would be another one.
But other countries do not require language exempt.
Citizenship through descent is just you're going through a path of claiming something that you're already eligible for, right?
Basically, in most of the scenarios, they say that you were born Italian.
You just never claimed it.
and sometimes I will like talk to a French consulate and be like hey my grandfather was
born in France I just want to clarify that I that I qualify can I apply for my French citizenship
and in the French manner they will come back and tell me you're either born French or you're not
born French there is not qualifying or applying for it and I'm like thank you for being helpful
Mr. Consular Clerk. Like, you know exactly what I'm talking about, but
you know, that's just, it just reminds me of an interesting, like saying that my father-in-law,
who again, escaped communism and came to America, said he was like, Walker, you know,
America is very unique because if you go to, he actually used the examples of France and Russia.
So, you know, you go to France, you can, you know, you can become a citizen, you can pay your taxes, you can marry a French woman, you'll never be French. You can go to Russia, you can, you know, become a citizen, you can pay your taxes, live there for your whole life, you'll never be Russian. But you come to America, you become a citizen, you pay your taxes, you're American. And like, that's a very, very unique thing. And that's just like, first time he said that, I was just like, oh, damn, like, it's, it's true. But like, yeah, you'll, you'll never be French. You know, you're either, you're either French or you're not. There's, there's no in between.
Yeah, no, definitely. I feel quite American these days. I haven't spoken a word of English nine years ago, and now I feel like I closed my cultural gap. I feel home. I have a family here. Yeah, definitely feel American in many ways.
I mean, you are American, you know? And so let me ask you about that. So I think you've been public about what city you live in, right?
Yeah, I'm in Austin, Texas.
Okay, just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to talk something. So in great, great Bitcoin or city, from what I know. And, you know, so, like, of all the places like now you, I mean, presumably you have a number of passports yourself, you know, you, you practice what you preach in terms of flag theory, you could go to a lot of places, you choose Austin, Texas in the United States of America.
why and you know i guess well let's start with why then my next question would be what's kind of
your biggest fear why like what that makes you want to have that plan b passport that you know
to be able to engage in that flag theory like what's your biggest fear for america that like
would cause you to need to like i need to get the fuck out of here yeah well between me and my
husband we can literally leave anywhere in the world like because we have other citizenships but
We also have a skill set that is welcomed in most of the world.
We also are able to move with capital, which is welcomed in most of the world.
And I have all the knowledge to move to literally any country out there.
So it is a very precise choice for us to live in the U.S. and to specifically be in Austin, Texas.
Some of this is family-based.
None of this is career-based, honestly, because, yes, I do like to hang out with Bitcoiners, but we both work remotely from home.
So that is not the reason.
But I found the perfect tribe.
And you know how I was talking about the toolkit of flag theory?
Tribe is another instrument in a toolkit that I really value.
Like being surrounded by the community of individuals that have the same principles and values is really important for me, partially because I'm having kids.
I need to make sure that my kids hang out with kids of other parents who are on the same page.
I don't want to go to a friend's house and catch my kid eating absolute junk everywhere and just being exposed to all kinds of chemicals.
There are certain things that I want for my children and for myself.
So I need to make sure that I'm surrounded by very similar people.
And I have beautiful sisterhood here.
Literally every single friend in my friend group is currently pregnant.
So we're all on the same stage of life.
That's been beautiful.
Our husbands are all into Bitcoin and smoking cigars together.
Our kids are all the same age.
And that's been definitely beautiful.
Yeah.
Um, weather wise, well, we, we travel.
So for the majority of the year, we love the climate here.
We love being able to get sun exposure daily.
Uh, we get lots of that.
Um, so yeah, it's, um, a lot of thinking went into that to choose Austin, Texas.
And right now it gave me everything I need.
Good alternative medical system with home birthing, um, good traditional medical system,
because I do have a child with medical needs.
Good Bitcoin in our community to be exposed to great people
and for our kids to hang out together
and then be homeschooled together later on.
Near proximity to my in-laws.
They've been great.
They moved.
I was really blessed with my in-laws
and they recently moved to Austin, Texas as well.
And just, I don't know.
We put a lot of thought into that
and we ended up in Austin, Texas.
I mean, you certainly sell it pretty well. So then with that, what is your kind of biggest fear? Like obviously you immigrated from a country that has gone through some extreme fucking shit. Not that there hasn't been extreme shit here, but the US has been, you know, we didn't have an iron curtain come down. You know what I mean? So like, it's a different level.
So what is your biggest fear, I guess, living here now in America, loving where you're at?
What would cause you to leave?
What do you fear?
Zero tolerance to violence, like actually being near my family.
So civil unrest starts happening.
I have no place in it.
Geopolitical instability.
I am not part of the Vote Harder group.
I'm not part of them
I'm going to stay and fight for their principles
no I have my own principles for my family
and
I'm not willing
to take part in their war
because I do believe that every war
in the world started not by citizens
but by the elites
forcing citizens to go
and put their blood on the line
zero interest
and then 6102
on Bitcoin we have all the
SBR starting everywhere
well what if one day
American government decides that
they've gotten pretty good at custodying Bitcoin
how about they custody for all the citizens
now? For our safety
of course
so zero
tolerance for
this
capital control
but
I'm also in Texas which means
that if airports
are closed. Things are shut down. I'm near border. I drive down the border. I get on a damn sailboat
in Galveston and I sail down and nobody can stop me because I can do that. So the strategic
positioning of being not landlocked and just being able to get out has also been important to me.
That's why I've been mostly between Florida and Texas. Okay. No, I mean, given that you are a
a sailor. That's a pretty smart move to me. It's a, it's, it's a good strategic positioning,
let's say. Now, and I, I'm, I'm, I'm with you on that. And specifically like just here, here on the,
you know, wars are not started by individuals. Individuals don't, cannot wage war against each
other. Individuals can fight. They can't wage war. War is waged by the state on behalf of elites.
War is not waged on behalf of individuals. Individuals, you know, are the ones who go and,
and are snuffed out in those wars. And so that's, that is just truly a shame. Unfortunately,
I don't think we're getting away from war anytime soon because it's just so good for business.
But yeah, it's, I mean, it's sad. I think that America is still like, I,
I think that America's best days are still ahead of it. Like, I think that America, like, because
especially in these rising generations there's people are sick of sick and tired of these
forever wars they're sick and tired of the 80 year old politicians who just won't get out of
office and won't like god just you know like drop dead already like you know or at least just go
retire and enjoy all of your insider training uh trading profits that you've been making all these
years nancy pelosi seriously yeah like go spend time with your great grandkids which you have
already because you're that ancient you sick old fucks but like people are tired of that and they
want some different so i think that there is a there's a a shift coming we're also at this point
right now where we we're in the middle of the fourth turning obviously yeah we're also i would
argue at this uh descending into this oglocracy stage or mob rule stage of this cycle theory
called anticyclosis and we're also at the end of a long-term debt cycle if we want to go ray
Dalio's win. We're also at the end of like a fiat currency cycle, if we want to go into that. And
like so many things are cyclically converging right now. And it may not be pretty for a little
while. And that's the thing. I think America's best days are ahead. But it's also like in the
short term, things could get really, really gnarly. Like the old system's not going to go down without
a fight. And things could get really bad. So I mean, that's like, that's kind of my fear as well.
It's not the long term.
Like long term, I think America is going to like, it's going to be better than ever.
It's going to take some time though.
And it's not going to be good in the short term.
I don't know if that's the vibe you have as well.
Yeah.
Bullish, but there might be a bear market, right?
Right.
So big drawdown.
The cool thing is I always say be a prepper, not a doomer, right?
Like we see all this things that are sad to imagine.
We know things are playing out in front of our eyes and the black swan things are taking place.
But the great thing is we recognized it early on and we put hedges in places.
We already hedged very well against fiat system just collapsing.
We are also hedged with our passports against civil unrest, political instability.
We got citizenships.
We all are in great health.
we really make sure that we can survive things for longer than others we took care of that
and you know we just focused on beautiful things we are raising families we are investing in those
families while the world might have gone to shit at some point but we have the beautiful things
so be a prepper not a doomer put hedges in place buy yourself rice and beef and passports and guns
and Bitcoin and the world is beautiful again because you don't have to be worried about
all this doomsday kind of scenario.
I like that very much.
That's a put that on a t-shirt or something.
That's a good words to live by.
I'm curious how you see, you know, we touched a little bit earlier just on that sovereign
individual thesis and people, you know, voting with their voting with their feet, but voting
with their capital as well.
And I'm kind of curious, you know, you mentioned, okay, yeah, these smaller nations, obviously they have that sort of startup agility.
They can move more quickly than the big behemoths.
That's a huge advantage.
It creates, you know, the game theory gets very interesting because, again, these small nations are incentivized to do that more and more so.
This big slow ones try to catch up.
But I'm curious kind of how you see this playing out.
you know, the difficulty is to what we were just mentioning in terms of like short-term
instability in the U S if that's happening in the U S it's probably happening in Europe. It's
probably, it's probably happening in most of the world. So like how, like how do you hedge against,
I mean, does that just come down to stack as many passports as you can and see which nation isn't
burning? Like when, when the shit hits the fan, like, is that the only thing you can do?
Stack strategically recognizing the trends in the geopolitics.
Like right now, we see Europe Union is fighting hard against citizenship by investment programs.
They come up with all kinds of different reasons, but the reality is they don't want people to be able to pick and choose where they go.
So the ECJ, which is like a European Court of Justice, just shut down Malta citizenship by investment program.
They're working hard on shutting down Caribbean citizenship by investment program.
They don't like that their citizens can shop around for a new jurisdiction.
So it's kind of bearish for the industry.
But in my view, Europe has no power.
Like they're running on their legacy power that half the world already doesn't believe in.
They're going full on socialists, completely walking towards poverty.
And everybody knows that.
So for how long they have any power, if anything, yet to hold.
So I recognize that while they still have some leverage to those smaller nations to come and stop their citizenship program, this will take turn very quickly.
Like we start seeing new nation states showing up on citizenship by investment list, and it's gradually and suddenly.
and that's one of the reasons I really want to see Trump card come into fruition because if America
the very strong nation of the world can just say hey there is a citizenship for sale here
well it will be a green light for many smaller nations to go and do that and then it's just game
theory playing out in front of our eyes taking care of everything the smaller nations want that
chunk of money too they need it they will start providing better services they will start attracting
you with better taxes and they will start selling you citizenship. So I, because of this European
pressure to all the CBI countries, I do, I am bearish very short term on the CBI world, citizenship
by investment world, but I'm incredibly bullish because I know it's gradually than suddenly.
And I already see this post-winter flowers come into places. And at some point the snow will melt
and the garden will be beautiful.
And that's what I'm seeing.
So the EU is actively trying to stop EU citizens
from being able to get citizenship by investment
in non-EU countries.
Yeah.
Man, that's, I mean, so they are literally,
they're trying to close the doors to prevent capital flight
is what they're trying to do.
I mean, if you look at the map.
I assume.
Yeah, there is Citizen X.
You can just Google Citizen X capital exodus.
And we have this life map of wealth migration.
And you can see the UK is number two loser of capital right now.
This is absolutely crazy to see.
The millionaires are leaving the UK at super high rates.
Same is happening in other jurisdictions.
And I mean, they can try to prevent whatever.
But again, you can't stop this.
You can't stop this train, as Lydon would say.
I wanted to pull up this map here for folks to check out, for those watching.
This is, I mean, yeah, so right there, wow.
So UK is what billion of capital flight so far Yeah What the timescale on this Is that just in the last year or is that like they looking at total
Let me see.
Oh, that's year to date.
Wow.
Yep.
Wow.
That is insane.
Okay, it's 250 in one year and 430 in three years.
So yeah.
Wow.
It's been said to be the UK over the last few years.
And the wealthy are always the canary in the coal mine.
They're the ones who are able to execute fast, who have access to all the best consultants in the world and ready to execute.
So if we see it within millionaire crowd, well, the middle class is next.
Well, right now, the middle class is paying for all that.
that that is just like that's nuts i mean to see especially in the uk it's like i know they have a
their government is looking at all the migration to uae as a huge issue for for them because that's
that's kind of like the the trend that they're seeing over there is you know out of the uk into
the uae um uae is obviously getting a lot of people coming from all over the place but but i
mean this is just like but it's like what do you expect like what what do you expect when you create
a socialist, verging on communist, totalitarian temptation dynamic in your nation where you don't
allow people to speak freely, where you take the fruits of their labor and spend it on stupid
fucking shit, where you treat them like criminals in their own country while letting the actual
criminals roam free. It's like, what do you expect, you morons? Of course people are going to leave.
You're doing a terrible job running the country. Obviously they're going to leave. If a business
is serving you dog shit food you're not just going to keep eating it and you're certainly
not going to pay for it you're going to leave like this isn't complicated it's like we have
300 years of a complete proof that economic freedom leads to economic prosperity and yet
we go back to socialist agenda uh we go back to hating rich people today i commented on um
Peter McCormack's post
he's basically saying being rich is good
that we should
literally praise those people
thanking them for bringing value
building value and there is this
German economist
I actually follow him on Twitter
I don't know why he's never done a round of
Bitcoin podcasts I truly hope
he's a Bitcoiner because he's there
and he actually wrote
a great book on how
Vietnam and Poland
got out of poverty
and in this book he also says only the countries that have a positive attitude towards wealth and
towards rich people can actually get out of poverty and move towards economic prosperity
so we have to see being rich being prosperous being wealthy as a good thing but then we have
this entire leftist agenda saying tugs the rich the rich are bad they're the ones causing problem
but they're the ones paying the most taxes.
What are you talking about?
And you're just wasting it over here.
So economic freedom leads to economic prosperity.
You let people build.
You let people keep their money.
They actually start building and making money.
So you can see it in the power dynamics of the world
and just track it.
And yet here comes the UK and just says,
oh, let's raise taxes.
Oh, we hate reach people.
it's just not gonna it's just not going to go well like it like you know it's one of those
things where it's like the again as you said we've got 300 years of proof that like capitalism
is not only great for people inside a capitalist nation but like there's a great quote by a guy
jean-francois revel he wrote the totalitarian temptation and it's like paraphrasing but one
often wonders what would become of socialism if capitalism was not there to support it like which
is you know just amazing um socialists hate to acknowledge that that it's you know well look look
at sweden and norway they're basically and it's like okay like yeah like you're just not even worth
my time but like like socialism and communism just don't work and it's not that you haven't
done it right it's that you've done it right every time you've done it exactly like how you're
supposed to it's just that it doesn't work because it's a very bad way like it is anti-human
to treat people like that and people die in in the millions absolute misincentive right there
right away for everybody every ambitious person is not gonna exercise their ambitions if it doesn't
lead anywhere what's the point why would i keep putting the work if uh if we're in under socialism
so yeah just lack of incentive will stop the progress and that's so clear to me but i was
born in the post-soviet country so if you look at all the bitcoin girls on twitter half of us
from like eastern europe and i think it's because we have this antibodies for socialism
yep i mean yeah like off the top of my head you carla natalie like and many like the list goes on
and on but like that's the thing i've uh i've had guys ask me before like oh how do i like get my
get my wife or get my girlfriend into bitcoin i'm like i'm the wrong person to ask because we kind
of got into it at the same time and it's because she's super based and came from eastern europe
and is like hey communism sucks um you shouldn't have communism when it comes to your money and
like you should be able to do whatever you want and like so you're just like eastern block women
are just prepared for Bitcoin.
Like you're ready for Bitcoin.
You don't need to be explained to why totalitarianism is bad
because like you've lived it and your family has lived it.
Like it's self-evident.
Yeah, the moment we'll learn enough about Bitcoin,
we got it.
Like we just did just enough to get there.
And it's not as clear for the Western world for sure.
Just because you haven't lived through those experiences.
But at the same time, the content is in English.
And that's why America is very much leading the Bitcoin adoption.
So you guys are seeing through that too.
Yeah.
Thankfully, you know, step by step, paso a paso, as they'd say in El Salvador.
This is just like a logistical question.
Is there any limit to how many passports you can have?
There are some jurisdictions that don't allow dual citizenship, for example, India, China.
But other than that, no, there's no limit.
You can have like as a U S citizen, you could just, you can just stack as many as you want,
essentially. It's stacking. Yeah. That's, that's kind of, that's kind of wild. I feel like that's
maybe not super well known. Like for a while, I thought that like U S citizens that couldn't have
dual citizenship in some cases, but like, there's no restrictions on that. If you're U S right.
No, absolutely. No restrictions. That, that is wild. What is your, uh, besides the U S passport,
uh like what what is your like the you know gold standard or the bitcoin standard of passports
in your mind i would always like if i i didn't have my passports right like if i wasn't to
completely just pinpoint right now in 2025 i would definitely want serbia because it's shengen but
outside of eu or like any of the countries that is like balkans that are still shengen but outside
of EU.
Then
actually Canadian
probably instead of American because America has
citizenship-based taxation. Canada doesn't.
Really?
Yeah. You can actually
not pay Canadian anything
or file in Canada once you break up with
Canada, which is not that hard.
Then I would get the
Latin American, but some of the
based Latin American. So it would be
El Salvador, my number one
right now. Argentina,
or Paraguay, that's probably already a pretty good triangle.
Yeah, that's a nice stack already.
I mean, it's so like, okay, El Salvador moves fast with these other countries.
It's like a year.
Do you have people coming to you who are like, I need another passport tomorrow?
Does that happen a decent amount?
Or are people like, are we at this point where people are planning ahead?
Okay, fair enough.
The one time that I had a client like this, he ended up like ghosting me.
And later when the due diligence came back, I realized why he ghosted me because he was in jail.
And he just forgot to mention to me a few things.
But now it makes sense why he was in such a rush.
Okay.
So, yeah, if you need it tomorrow.
Well, that's a good thing to mention.
It's like you want it before you need it because when you need it, it's too late.
so that's why people just execute without this like pressuring need because under pressuring need
you might not pass the due diligence and you might not be able to get that citizenship anymore
so get it before you need it just like you know the gun you you need it right now or
you don't if you don't have it you don't it's too late basically so same goes for every security
model. And if you really need it, it's too late, probably. Do you think like looking long term into
the future, if this sovereign individual thesis keeps playing out, if we are seeing nation states,
you know, really striving to operate more as service providers, right, to really make sure
you're getting the most out of whatever money you are, you're spending there? Do you think that's,
I mean, is that something where it's going to be basically impossible for nations to get away with
charging ridiculous taxes. Like the EU is not going to be able to do what it currently does
because people, I mean, unless they trap their citizens there and make it impossible for them to
leave, it won't even be feasible anymore. Like those nation states will just perish. Like the
sovereign individual thesis will just play out and it'll be the end of that, the nation state as we
know it today. Yeah. Just imagine like a subscription-based model, right? Like you have
five different streaming platforms.
And for some reason,
you're willing to pay for Apple TV
more than you pay for Netflix and Prime
and this and that because there is severance.
So there is an incentive for you to pay for Apple TV
that is higher than for others
and you're willing to pay that higher price.
So the micro state system
will have similar to subscription model.
And once you're unhappy
or the streaming platform doesn't provide you
with what you need,
you unsubscribe. You break up with that platform and you go find better nation state service
provider at a better price. We already have decentralized money that is outside of any
government's control. The other thing is monopoly on violence, right? But the violence is getting
decentralized as well with the technology and drones and everything. So anybody has access to
pretty violent defense and offense these days, and it's only going to get more decentralized.
That will basically allow microstates to exist, to protect themselves, and to welcome citizens.
And in a microstate world, yeah, it's just subscription-based. And
once you have this free market competition, it's much easier to price your services,
right because you you get to compare and if you don't have gatekeepers then the free market
competition just evolves but in our scenario we have the money that doesn't allow gatekeepers to
exist because we can bring the 12 forts with us so now it's just the game theory of them realizing
that they have to compete do you think the nation state itself ends up like like you know goes into
this micro state kind of situation where they're just, they're forced to get smaller and smaller
and smaller. And to then, even though they're small, but then they can actually provide for
their citizens in a meaningful way. Is that how you see that transpiring?
Yeah. And let's see what happens with Alberta in the next 360 days.
Yeah, that is. Okay. So what's your read on that? Because first of all, the Canadians I talked to,
I didn't know actually a ton of Canadians. I could count them on one hand before Bitcoin.
Let me get into Bitcoin and I've met more based Canadians than I could ever imagine.
Like just – I had no idea Canada was full of so many based people.
But maybe it's just – it's a lot of the Bitcoins.
And they're all in Alberta.
Yeah.
So like, okay, what's your read?
What's going on there?
Like it seems like people in Alberta are pretty pissed because they basically are supplying the energy for most of the rest of the country and still get shafted for it.
But like do you think that's actually something that's going to move quickly?
Yeah, for the six weeks after the Canadian elections, I was just talking to Canadians all day long. They expect capital control. They expect full surveillance state. And Alberta, well, those based from outside of Alberta are literally moving to Alberta in case Alberta's exodus actually happens.
and that's what i advise them to do as well because in case of exodus you want to be the
citizen of alberta you will keep your canadian citizenship because you were born with that
now you get an alberta citizenship too and you get to actually choose where you want to be
um i at the beginning i wasn't believing that would actually happen uh but now i'm starting
to think it's very possible partially because alberta is so independent in terms of their
earnings, their balance sheet, their budget.
Just like Texas. Texas is net positive in terms of their
budget. So I think it may
actually take place. Let's see. It will be interesting to see.
I definitely wanted to go in a non-violent way,
which means that the U.S. won't necessarily step in.
There will be more of a monetary agreement, but
Let's see how it plays out.
It's going to be interesting.
I mean, it seems like there's a lot of momentum for it.
And, you know, you can only push people so far before they just say, you know, I'm not doing this anymore.
Like, I've had enough of this.
We're sick of your, you know, your Fiat games.
Katie, is there anything we did not get a chance to cover yet that you were like, that you wanted to make sure we did?
We've gone in a lot of different directions.
or you've also just given a ton of great information for folks.
Is there anything we didn't get a chance to get into yet that you wanted to?
No, I think we covered a pretty good amount.
Yeah, just get educated on what tools you have,
what access to what instruments you have.
I have one-on-one brainstorming calls for free on our platform.
So just create an account on CitizenX and you get access to my calendar,
schedule a free call.
Happy to do that.
But yeah, I'm excited to start developing new programs and new jurisdictions that are targeting Bitcoiners specifically.
We've seen El Salvador being born a Bitcoin native program, which I'm not going to say anything.
But three years ago, I did write an open letter to President Bukele saying they should launch a program.
Really?
This acquisition, a plan B passport acquisition by CitizenX, partially reason behind it is because we want to be that accelerator in a sovereign individual thesis that helps those nations launch digital native Bitcoin native programs to start attracting the actual capital, not the fiat fake money, but the real money and allow Bitcoiners to vote with their capital.
I love it.
Where do you want to send people?
I'll link that chart that we pulled up as well, but just citizenx.com.
Anywhere else you want to send folks, I'll link it all in the show notes.
Yeah, I can give you my cal.com link so people can schedule a call right away.
Sure.
Doing it through CitizenX is the best way because I'll ask you a couple of questions that will help me prepare for the call.
Yeah, well, I'll appreciate it very much.
Yeah, it was great having you on.
And now I'm coming out of this thinking I need some more passports.
So I guess, you know, mission accomplished on both counts.
But yeah, I'm very bullish on the United States of America.
But again, it doesn't hurt to have options, especially when those options are perfectly
legally accessible.
So I need to look back through my ancestor.
I'm a bit of a mutt.
So yeah, I'll have to see what I can do.
Yeah, let's look into that.
Well, thank you so much.
Really appreciate this, the Bitcoin podcast.
You're welcome back anytime, Katie.
Great to see you.
Great to see it too. Thank you, Walker.
It's going to cut.
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast.
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