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Everything that your fiat teacher told you is lies.

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It's just accurate to say that central banking is communist.

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It's literally in the communist manifesto.

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Therefore, pay more money.

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The whole fiat game is misleading people by being imprecise,

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so I'm just performatively doing the opposite.

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We know that necessarily every fiat currency goes to zero eventually.

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Can you have a true free market without a free market in money?

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You just end up in this doom loop of like,

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socialism causes misery and poverty,

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both of which cause people to want more socialism to try to fix it.

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They will never own a home.

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They'll be paid shit wages because nobody can be bothered

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starting a business and accumulating any capital in the first place.

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Real estate is monetized so they can't afford anything.

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So they just feel like they're on a hamster wheel.

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They'll never get off.

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Maybe we should just burn this down.

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I'm pretty close to the sun so we could do the next one from prison.

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That'd be fun, right?

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Have you ever had anyone dial in from prison?

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Alan Farrington, how you doing, man?

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Welcome back to the show.

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It's been a little while.

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Yeah, thanks so much.

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Yeah, you doing well?

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Life's good?

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Doing very well.

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Last time we talked, I think it was right when Apple came.

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I remember specifically Apple came out with that commercial

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where they were basically crushing all the instruments

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and all these great pieces of art and stuff

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and shoving it into an iPad.

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Oh, yeah.

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a cultural review of that it's like just came back to me in the moment i i yeah i i completely

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forgot about that but now you mention it yeah i remember us being all grouchy about that perhaps

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perhaps perhaps a bit grouchy days yeah oh god they're taking away our art and our music and

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everything and shoving it into one of their funny computer pads how dare they how dare they

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oh man well good to have you back on i we were just chatting off uh off air about this and we

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were talking about kind of the boy the uh the fiat system and how it just almost makes you feel like

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you're taking crazy pills and you and sasha myers your your co-author from uh from bitcoin is venice

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and from you guys have done a bunch of uh a bunch of writing together now obviously you just put out

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a great piece called number go down and i think this is one of the things that people have the

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they struggle with the most because we've been so you know fiat has been the water that we swim in

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as fish and you know it's like what what the fuck is water uh and so this idea that deflation being

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that it's been this boogeyman in the fiat system but actually when they talk about deflation

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they're they're they're not really we're not using the same words to mean the same things

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so to speak so maybe a good place to start out is just one of the things you talk about in this uh

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in this piece is sort of good deflation versus bad deflation can we set the stage with that just

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so that anybody who's tuning in saying deflation well i'd hate to have a deflationary spiral you

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know just just we can put that one to bed at the start and kind of take it from there uh sure yeah

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i mean we we made out this terminology to be clear it's it's meant to be slightly tongue in

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cheek and that it's obviously not a very technically rigorous definition we we toyed

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with like trying to neither are theirs to be fair you know what i mean like more academic

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um but no we kind of like this in the end because if anything it a lot of what we're writing about

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is uh you know economic jargon is kind of unavoidable and it makes it a bit dry in place

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and so so landing on this i think we're we're pretty happy with and the reason we come up with

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it is to, I actually don't think it's all that interesting in its own right. I think it's,

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we used it as kind of a rhetorical tool to unpack what we expect the fiat objection to be,

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to our overall argument that just deflation is good, right? I mean, that's basically the

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entire essay, it's just deflation is good, actually. Everything that your fiat teacher

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told you is lies. But we anticipate, so in setting out that, we think relatively straightforward

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argument, we anticipate the fiat Keynesian objection of pointing to basically the only time

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you ever see deflation in a fiat context, which is in the aftermath of a credit bubble popping.

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And I'm a little wary of, I mean, we can dig into this in more detail if you want, if you want to

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kind of pry on on you know for more specifics here i don't i again i'm wary of like drowning

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in jargon right from the start and but i guess a decent summary would be like i your your audience

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will know perfectly well and won't need me to explain you know why prices typically go up why

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you typically have inflation under fiat um but it might seem a little counterintuitive that

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you can actually have brief periods of deflation as a result of, as painful as it is to say,

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this is like one of the only times if you want to invoke aggregate demand, it's like somewhat

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meaningful without being completely silly, where the idea would be because everybody's just

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insanely leveraged and the idea of a credit bubble being that you're just getting more and more

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leveraged and you have more and more of the illusion of wealth without anything real kind

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of substantiating it, that what it means for the credit bubble to pop is basically everybody being

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forced to adjust to that reality all at the same time. And so people stopped spending because they

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were on a path of spending that they thought was sustainable because they thought they had all this

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wealth and then they realized they don't. So they stopped spending. But in the meantime, so that's,

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aggregate demand goes down. But up until that point, all of their spending had been

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facilitating and kind of creating the fake price signals to enable all kinds of supply.

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And that's still there, right? Like all of this inventory is there waiting to be sold at the point

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at which everybody realizes they actually don't have any wealth at all. And so that's the exact

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set of circumstances in which you would see, you know, quote unquote, deflation in the sense of

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prices going down, not really in the sense of the money supply contracting, because all of a sudden

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nobody's buying it. You just have seemingly sustainable purchasing, and then everybody

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stops. And then everyone who's selling things like, oh shit, well, we need to lower prices to

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actually clear this stuff. And so that's like the exact window in which you might see it. But the

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funny thing is, that's pretty much the only time you would ever see it in a fiat system. And so the

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fiat economist explanation of this is basically getting the causation completely wrong. And

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saying all of that, therefore deflation bad, right?

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Like deflation is symptomatic of the bad thing happening

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and therefore it itself must be bad.

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And the only way we can cure this is inflation.

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And then that comes full circle to,

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even though this hasn't necessarily happened,

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this could be like all hypothetical

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or maybe you've had like one experience of it

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or you point to, you know,

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they always point to like the crash of 29

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as the worst case ever of this having happened.

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And we need to make sure that never happens again

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kind of thing.

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that's their justification for just always having inflation all the time it's it's uh yeah you don't

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actually need to live through it necessarily you just need to follow their logic or their

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illogic uh to get comfortable with well that must be avoided at all costs and so that's back to your

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question that's uh that's what we somewhat jokingly mean by you know good and bad deflation good

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deflation is what you would actually expect in a normal functioning system and bad deflation is

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this one weird thing that can occasionally happen in fiat well right you have this one quote in there

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that's that you know a lot of a lot of great zingers in there but they conclude that money

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printing will avert hardship not seeing that it was money printing that created the capital

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misallocation and balance sheet fragility in the first place and that's kind of the whole thing

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right is that these you know these problems that they are warning about that must be averted

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what they're describing are problems that have been of their own making in the limited in the

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limited instances where they can even cite an area where this occurred right like people have

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all these ideas about you know the the crash of you know of 1929 the great depression that followed

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and all these things and then it's like you look you know it's there's like what you were taught in

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the you know in your history textbooks growing up and then there's what actually happened and and

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it's sort of like well what actually happened once you dig into it a little more you're like oh well

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this narrative doesn't really make any sense at all anymore.

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Like there was just, there was manipulation all along the way.

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And then it reached, you know, reached ahead, right?

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And then it blows off.

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And then what gets blamed?

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Well, it's actually the problem was deflation at the end of the day, clearly.

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You know, the problem wasn't that we were, you know, just playing it fast and loose.

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No, no, no.

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The problem is this other thing that we will now use as a boogeyman for the next hundred years.

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But it's just kind of crazy to me, Alan, that they've sort of gotten away with that.

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Like, how is it that are people just so conditioned at this point where you've we've only you and I have only ever grown up in an inflationary world?

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Right. Except for in certain areas where deflation, technological and entrepreneurial deflation, flat screen TVs are always the example everyone uses.

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But like it because they're a great example. Right. They just keep getting better and thinner and cheaper at all along, even as everything else gets more and more and more expensive.

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And so are we just so conditioned to expect prices to go up that we don't, you know, ride in the streets and overthrow our overlords for it? Hypothetically speaking, of course, I know, you know, don't want you getting arrested, you know, in the United Kingdom for these things.

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I appreciate your concern for my, uh, my, my jurisdictional liability. Um, it's, I, I,

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I don't know. It's, it's really hard to say. I mean, I'm wary of giving an answer that's like

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unhelpfully, you know, pathologizes 99% of the, of the population. It's equally unsatisfying to

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just be like, Oh, people are stupid or, Oh, people are brainwashed, whatever it is. I don't

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have a good answer i whatever it is is i think more sophisticated than that uh to try to say

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something positive i guess rather than just whining about you know everyone's dumb or everyone's

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misinformed or whatever you know sneaky russian disinformation um the the goal with this essay

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we can get into this a little bit more if you want and like how it feeds into uh future writing

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that sasha and i are planning on um all with this essay is basically to you know we have a few like

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snarky jabs here and there just because it's fun and it's like it's a bit dry otherwise but

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it's it's sort of to assume that you don't really have any certainly no academic background in

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economics as the reader but potentially not much of you know just just common sense right like an

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ability to reason some real world experience uh but you know not not really asking a lot in terms

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of like conceptual you know groundwork that you need to have you need to have you know had some

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like undergraduate education or whatever like just just common sense as as common sense as possible

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as first principles as possible and just guiding the reader through why why you would expect what

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we're arguing for uh not in terms of some kind of grand sweeping theory but because i feel like

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maybe that's part of the answer to your question that that fiat keynesianism whatever you want to

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call it does sweep a lot of this stuff under the rug by virtue of grand sweeping theories that

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you're supposed to accept even though you have no real world validation of it at all it just kind of

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sounds good it sounds coherent even though it isn't um so avoiding that as much as we can and

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and just trying to go you know i use the expression first principles a minute ago just going through

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be like, okay, well, why would people behave this way? Having behaved that way, why would these

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things happen? And, you know, hopefully, it's, it's coherent. Hopefully, it's, hopefully,

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the reader follows the logic ends up agreeing with us. And then I guess the sneakiest part of

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the whole thing is that, you know, we don't actually mentioned Bitcoin at all. But it's,

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and it's kind of not really about Bitcoin, other than the implication being, well, therefore,

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you should also like Bitcoin, right?

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So that's the kind of the cherry on top of you.

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If you do make it all the way through,

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if you do follow all of this,

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you ideally find yourself liking more than,

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liking Bitcoin more than you would otherwise,

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even though we didn't argue for that directly.

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And then that,

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I don't know if you want to get into this right away,

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but that kind of then feeds into like

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what the point of all of Bitcoin as Venice is

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and how this is going to fit into

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what we're planning there.

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Yeah, I do want to get into kind of

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what you're what you're playing a little bit too there uh maybe first just because there's a couple

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things and for anybody you know you you can go and obviously read this full article it's available

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on x they've got a great new feature now actually too where you can listen to it like they've got

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grok just auto auto dubbing it which is super convenient like it's fun uh or sorry i didn't do

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this someone else did it and i find it hilarious i think is is it google i think it's like google

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notebook or something like that does i mean you can do it with anything obviously but you give it

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some text and it makes a podcast for you about it someone did that and i listened to it i was like

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yeah they get it that's good was it decent the the podcast that google generated i mean i guess

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the thing is that i've i've known about this thing for a while and i've tried it on a whole bunch of

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different inputs and so i sort of the the the initial wow factor is kind of gone for me like

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i've kind of i've learned the format so i don't take it as i don't know seriously anymore but it

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was like yeah i guess it's pretty good i think if you if you've literally never heard it before

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as in something fed into this and then you listen to the you know the podcast

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i put i'm for people only listening i'm doing like air quotes on my fingers

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podcast um it's very entertaining yes wish you could access cash without selling your bitcoin

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better stack harder oh no i'm yeah i'm gonna have to try that out i mean i do i i this is a slight

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digression but i i this stuff is very convenient to do these sorts of you know like whether the

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summaries i think are like very convenient okay let me you know grok will generate a quick summary

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for me right next it'll let me play the article out loud okay that's very convenient if i'm doing

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other stuff in terms of like the auto-generated podcasts though it's like I'm you know I'm not

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listening to a podcast just to like just to I guess have the the facts do you know what I mean

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like I also want yeah I want to listen to the people that I know are behind that that's what I

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I've always found this kind of confusing this google thing this I I'm sure it has I'm sure this

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there's a product name for this that I'm just not aware of and I'll just call it the google thing

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for now i've always been a bit confused by it because i'm not sure how you're supposed to use

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it other than a joke like it's it's so obviously you know just not real like no one could possibly

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mistake this for a real podcast it's almost like i think the intended impression in the listener

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is that it's funny how good it is but it's in kind of uncanny valley territory right it's like you

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would never think it's actually real but you're surprised that it is that good if that yeah but i

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don't know what people are supposed to do with that like the only the only way i have ever consumed

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this and now probably four or five different contexts or you know as derived from four or

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five different source materials is just to laugh at it or like laugh with it like it's not that

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it's stupid it's like yeah but i don't know what they're going for i don't know if they actually

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want it to be funny i find it very funny yeah no no i i mean i do too it's like and it's gonna get

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better obviously like these will continue to get more impressive but it's like right now the only

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people who are like who if they heard this just as a one-off the only people who are going to think

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oh wow that's like that's a real you know thing we're not thinking anything of are like the boomers

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on facebook who can't distinguish you know like the rainbow colored rabbits jumping on a trampoline

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you know and they're like wow where was this video taken you're like oh geez you guys are

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you guys have no natural defenses against this like this is a this is a viral infection hitting

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a new continent of thought and you are just about to be decimated by it.

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Like it's digital smallpox blankets and you guys have zero defenses against it.

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But, you know, we love you boomers, especially the Bitcoin boomers out there.

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Okay, so digression aside, you know, one of the things I think that's so interesting about

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all of this and about what you've already kind of set the stage for in terms of, quote,

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good deflation versus bad deflation and just this misnomer of deflation generally as this

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bad thing is you look at even stuff like that you know the two percent inflation target it's like

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you know you you talk about being reticent right like right now you're talking about being reticent

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to uh make up terms or use things that aren't you know uh you know that are not particularly accurate

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but are useful to describe just because you don't want to make things up but it's like fiat

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economists have no problem just making things up it's kind of like though it's kind of the whole

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game right and i'm just curious is there is there any part of of modern fiat keynesian economics

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that is actually true and real?

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Or is all of this just sort of made up jargon?

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Like, yeah, 2% inflation because New Zealand, right?

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I mean, it's like, does any of this have a basis in actual fact

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versus just theory that kind of sounds good

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and isn't used to justify more printing?

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I feel like I'm an entertaining person to ask this of,

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but not a useful one I don think your audience is going to learn anything from me opining on this because the answer might be interesting though They might learn something in more of like a meta sense of

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how to laugh at all of this without, you know, what the answer really is.

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I've never studied economics in an academic context. I've just approached it, I guess,

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as like a layman, as like a well-educated layman with decent experience in, well, Bitcoin,

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obviously helps right all of the all the patterns of thought around bitcoin make you very skeptical

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um i think the classic route there too even though for me it went the other way around but

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nonetheless is is to then get interested in austrian school and kind of maybe somewhat

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tangentially other you know heterodox schools um and and yeah just just an an assortment of

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actually worthwhile real world experiences verging on academic in some senses but but

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almost anything other than you know i actually took a class or like or got a degree in this and

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i'm saying all that uh to kind of avoid answering directly because i don't really know directly i'm

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honestly not sure what they like if you did an undergraduate degree in economics i'm really not

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sure what you would be taught day to day other than the almost like the highlights of what makes

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the least sense i feel like that's kind of what makes it to you know bitcoin twitter right and

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like and and it bubbles up enough to to give rise to the two percent number and whatever other things

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are particular and unlike money printer go burr and whatever else whatever can can attain meme

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status uh because that's most fruitful for bitcoiners to debunk but in terms of like the

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day-to-day of what they actually learn i honestly don't know maybe it's fine maybe it's just kind of

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boring by comparison i'm honestly not really sure sorry no no no that's that that's fair uh you know

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i i always know with you alan i need to i need to be very particular with my question because you can

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be very elusive at times uh but okay i don't want to miss anybody this is exactly like you set it up

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this way right that yeah yeah the whole fiat game is misleading people by being imprecise so i'm just

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performatively doing the opposite.

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No, and it works well.

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It definitely works well.

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I'm curious to, maybe we can,

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and then I want to kind of get into where you guys,

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you and Sasha are taking this in the,

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let's say in the realm of your,

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the larger Bitcoin is Venice universe and everything.

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But can we talk a little bit just about this idea

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of the paradox of thrift and some of these other things?

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Oh yeah.

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You know, just because again,

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like some things that are perhaps misnomers purposefully

293
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or accidentally so.

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Can you dig into what that is a little bit?

295
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So the paradox of thrift is confusing

296
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because it's not a paradox.

297
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It's more like, I guess, a thought experiment.

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It comes from Keynes, but in the sense of actually,

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you know, we say a lot of things are Keynesian.

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This actually was proposed by Keynes.

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I believe in the general theory.

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I think it's like, you know, classic Keynes canon.

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And it's sort of...

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I think it feels plausible.

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I think this sort of contributes to why people probably fall for it,

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that it's not completely ridiculous nonsense that you can't follow

307
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and then you're surprised why anyone believes it.

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If anything, I feel like I get why people believe it.

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It's only superficially plausible.

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When you really dig into it, you can unpack it without too much difficulty.

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But the idea of it being a paradox is that if you're thrifty,

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i.e. if you save, right, then you are not spending. It's kind of true by definition,

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right? You have to do one or the other. Or saving is almost a lack of spending.

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And then if you don't spend, then nobody else is going to earn. And if nobody else earns,

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then nobody's going to be able to work. And if nobody works, then no one's going to be able to

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save in the first place so the the so-called paradox is that too much saving prevents the

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ability to save like there's there is therefore in theory some optimal amount but then if you like

318
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really poke at this from a fiat perspective that optimal amount gets lower and lower and lower and

319
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really you shouldn't save at all you should just consume all the time you should just you know

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boost aggregate demand and and it's a like again i think that seems plausible in the sense that a lot

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of a lot of the claims on the face of it are not that controversial like if yeah if you're saving

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you're not consuming but it's i think the reason it's tricky i i may be a little averse to to fully

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unpack it now because that is kind of like the entire point of this essay that is to you like

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an hour or something if you get wrong to read it um but the the gist of why it's wrong let's say

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is that it's quite deeply confused about the causation of saving and spending it basically

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assumes that uh spending causes savings or at least sets in motion a chain of events that results

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in you being able to save when in fact that's almost exactly backwards that saving uh i wouldn't

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exactly say saving causes spending that's a that's a bit kind of reductive but saving and investing

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creates the uh let me think how much detail i want to do creates the uh the capital

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that enables the productions of the goods and services

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that it is even possible to then purchase

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and then consume in the first place.

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And even the way I'm sort of hearing myself speak now

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and realizing you risk getting bogged down

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and not that this is jargon necessarily,

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but kind of more dense concepts than you maybe set out to.

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And I think it's always,

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we try to do this a couple of times in the article.

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It's always good to step back and just remind yourself

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that it really is as simple as

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you have to produce before you consume.

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Like almost everything comes back to that.

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You can make it more complicated

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if you want to make a more involved point

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about like capital accumulation, say,

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which obviously we do in the piece.

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But that, you know, nothing more complex

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you go on to say at all changes

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the starting point of in order to consume something,

350
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you have to have first produced it, right?

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And in order to, I'm trying to think of it,

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even more like if different terminology is even merited here but in order to um i guess in order

353
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to demand you know there must first have been a supply or something something along those lines

354
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but ultimately the the notion that if you save you are prevented from saving in the future

355
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is just false and i know just wrong is almost exactly wrong it could hardly be

356
00:27:45,038 --> 00:27:52,658
less correct yeah well and no i appreciate that that explanation of it because i think it's also

357
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the like the important real world results of all this and of keens making these types of arguments

358
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is that okay well you know because what i am saying as keens you know i'm saying you know

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because what i'm saying is undoubtedly true and this paradox so exists and the only cure is to

360
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spin up the money printer money printers good boy and set them to burr and like but that that's like

361
00:28:14,238 --> 00:28:20,438
That's the whole thing. It's like all of these arguments being used in justification for monetary expansion, right?

362
00:28:20,478 --> 00:28:25,818
For government stimulus, for more for more top down monetary and economic control.

363
00:28:25,938 --> 00:28:29,358
Like that's really the the disastrous effect of all of these arguments.

364
00:28:29,698 --> 00:28:30,878
I think they've seen jokes about this quite a lot.

365
00:28:30,958 --> 00:28:34,358
I don't know if there's an exact quote that I should be memorizing when I'm citing this.

366
00:28:34,358 --> 00:28:50,498
But I mean, I've heard him say this several times that a lot of the jargon and a lot of the kind of academic pretense of Keynesianism ends up being irrelevant in the scheme of there being a practical application, because the conclusion is just always the same.

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Like, it doesn't really matter what they say in the middle. It's just window dressing to, you know, we have problem A that we explain it with B, C, D, X, Y, Z, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

368
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But then, you know, therefore, print more money.

369
00:29:02,378 --> 00:29:03,478
Like it's always print more money.

370
00:29:03,558 --> 00:29:06,038
So it doesn't really matter what comes in the middle.

371
00:29:06,338 --> 00:29:07,818
You may as well just get to print more money.

372
00:29:07,918 --> 00:29:09,638
And then that's, you know, that's it over with.

373
00:29:10,598 --> 00:29:11,938
Yeah, yeah, it is.

374
00:29:12,018 --> 00:29:12,778
I mean, it is amazing.

375
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Like, you know what the destination is going to be.

376
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It just depends on what their journey to get there.

377
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And that may vary slightly, but it's like, it's always just, well, I guess we got to print more money.

378
00:29:21,778 --> 00:29:23,778
It's like they've got one button that they can push.

379
00:29:23,778 --> 00:29:28,658
and they just need they need a some circuitous way of getting to that button no matter how

380
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nonsensical it is and they will get there and then they will press it like that's

381
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that's what happens.

382
00:29:34,598 --> 00:29:37,898
Deflation is bad that's that's one it's one tool that they have.

383
00:29:38,318 --> 00:29:43,418
Well and because the other side of that is the implication in in the statement that deflation

384
00:29:43,418 --> 00:29:48,458
is bad is of course that inflation is good and necessary if deflation is bad then of course

385
00:29:48,458 --> 00:29:52,738
inflation must be good it's the opposite of that right so then it must if it's good it

386
00:29:52,738 --> 00:29:57,178
must be necessary so then that's again almost this moral justification you're saying like we

387
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have to avoid the bad thing like we're doing this to save you and that's the thing is that obviously

388
00:30:02,798 --> 00:30:09,578
there are you know many people asset holders are benefits beneficiaries of inflation right you know

389
00:30:09,578 --> 00:30:14,878
and you know as people holding bitcoin we are beneficiaries of fiat inflation in terms of the

390
00:30:14,878 --> 00:30:21,218
exchange rate but the problem is that the majority of people in the world are not you know are not

391
00:30:21,218 --> 00:30:25,738
beneficiaries of it right like inflate and this is this is something maybe this is a way to tie

392
00:30:25,738 --> 00:30:29,778
this into the uh the political a little bit because i've seen there just seems to be i don't

393
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know if it's the algo feeding it to me or just the sad reality of the world but a resurgence in just

394
00:30:34,198 --> 00:30:40,738
really smooth-brained you know neo-socialist takes out there these days and all of this all

395
00:30:40,738 --> 00:30:44,618
you know we we need to we need more equality and the problem of course is that it's capitalism

396
00:30:44,618 --> 00:30:50,378
that is causing the inequality yeah and then you know like you know i've i love the peter mccormick

397
00:30:50,378 --> 00:30:55,518
saga, of course, and just seeing him just try to try to be very gracious with some of these

398
00:30:55,518 --> 00:31:00,138
socialists. And then, you know, it just won't take him up on any of it. But this this idea that the

399
00:31:00,138 --> 00:31:04,278
capitalism is the problem. The problem is all this greedy capitalism. And that's why we have

400
00:31:04,278 --> 00:31:10,478
inequality. So we need to fix that by taking a reallocating this capital from the top down,

401
00:31:10,478 --> 00:31:14,558
of course, to different people to make things more equitable, make things more fair or make

402
00:31:14,558 --> 00:31:19,838
things more equal. But they don't ever talk about the actual problem, which is like inequality is a

403
00:31:19,838 --> 00:31:23,938
natural thing. The question is, do we have more inequality right now than we naturally would?

404
00:31:23,978 --> 00:31:28,038
And probably the answer is yes. But they won't address the fact that that inequality is ultimately

405
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driven by the fact that fiat inflation benefits those at the top, those with the greatest

406
00:31:32,998 --> 00:31:37,718
proximity to the money printer, the most. And I just don't know what it's, I mean, because if you

407
00:31:37,718 --> 00:31:42,338
acknowledge that, then of course it tears your entire argument down, you know, from the base,

408
00:31:42,418 --> 00:31:48,538
right? I mean, is there, can a socialist ever acknowledge that fact and still be a socialist?

409
00:31:48,538 --> 00:31:49,698
Is that possible?

410
00:31:50,678 --> 00:31:51,018
Hmm.

411
00:31:52,458 --> 00:31:55,118
I honestly don't know because I,

412
00:31:55,598 --> 00:31:58,198
it's funny you bring up like Peter McCormick

413
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arguing with people on Twitter about this.

414
00:32:01,518 --> 00:32:03,478
I haven't, at least of late,

415
00:32:03,598 --> 00:32:09,098
I haven't seen him really go into Bitcoin, I suppose,

416
00:32:09,218 --> 00:32:11,318
but even this entire argumentation around,

417
00:32:11,318 --> 00:32:14,618
you know, fiat money versus even if not necessarily Bitcoin,

418
00:32:15,198 --> 00:32:17,938
more sound money as being relevant.

419
00:32:17,938 --> 00:32:19,778
like it seems like he's

420
00:32:19,778 --> 00:32:22,198
for now at least

421
00:32:22,198 --> 00:32:24,258
or in the context of those

422
00:32:24,258 --> 00:32:26,438
arguments he's just sticking to basically

423
00:32:26,438 --> 00:32:28,198
socialism versus I guess

424
00:32:28,198 --> 00:32:29,518
what he calls capitalism

425
00:32:29,518 --> 00:32:31,738
but because

426
00:32:31,738 --> 00:32:33,638
he obviously does know

427
00:32:33,638 --> 00:32:36,018
given who he is given why we're talking about him at all

428
00:32:36,018 --> 00:32:38,318
of course he knows the difference but I don't

429
00:32:38,318 --> 00:32:39,738
my hunch is that

430
00:32:39,738 --> 00:32:42,138
he doesn't think he's

431
00:32:42,138 --> 00:32:43,778
even going to get anywhere

432
00:32:43,778 --> 00:32:46,058
moving the conversation to

433
00:32:46,058 --> 00:32:47,478
being about the

434
00:32:47,938 --> 00:32:55,158
properties of money because it's almost like the misunderstanding is deeper even than that it's

435
00:32:55,158 --> 00:33:02,638
like these these people are they're not primed yet to think about something that that you know

436
00:33:02,638 --> 00:33:06,918
nuanced in a sense and another thing that came to mind though i think maybe partly an explanation

437
00:33:06,918 --> 00:33:14,118
for this is that um well in in peter's case this is obviously very focused in the uk where i i would

438
00:33:14,118 --> 00:33:19,838
suggest the problem that you identified at the outset is a lot more exaggerated than it is

439
00:33:19,838 --> 00:33:26,338
in the US. And so he has like more of an uphill battle to convince anybody of this,

440
00:33:26,838 --> 00:33:35,258
that we've basically had so much, not only socialism, but ultimately, you know, as driven by

441
00:33:35,258 --> 00:33:44,098
a fiat monetary regime where basically where you have, where this conflation around capitalism

442
00:33:44,098 --> 00:33:46,178
is like, I actually understand it.

443
00:33:46,258 --> 00:33:47,298
I have some sympathy for this

444
00:33:47,298 --> 00:33:49,598
because what's presented to these people

445
00:33:49,598 --> 00:33:51,358
as quote unquote capitalism

446
00:33:51,358 --> 00:33:53,798
is really just fiat banking.

447
00:33:54,018 --> 00:33:55,878
Like the biggest industry in the UK,

448
00:33:56,358 --> 00:33:58,958
London more specifically, is finance.

449
00:33:59,298 --> 00:34:00,758
The most prestigious thing to do

450
00:34:00,758 --> 00:34:02,098
is either finance or something,

451
00:34:02,818 --> 00:34:04,238
you know, derivative of finance

452
00:34:04,238 --> 00:34:05,258
or downstream of finance.

453
00:34:05,258 --> 00:34:09,478
And so that is what they see capitalism as being.

454
00:34:10,498 --> 00:34:12,938
And you and I know,

455
00:34:12,938 --> 00:34:14,498
I mean, there's a chapter in Bitcoin.

456
00:34:14,618 --> 00:34:15,858
It's called, this is not capitalism.

457
00:34:15,858 --> 00:34:17,758
So we can give, I think, a fairly decent argument

458
00:34:17,758 --> 00:34:19,478
as to what the problems there are,

459
00:34:19,898 --> 00:34:21,638
potentially not even mentioning Bitcoin.

460
00:34:21,838 --> 00:34:23,598
But if the audience is interested enough,

461
00:34:23,638 --> 00:34:25,058
obviously you can then get to that.

462
00:34:25,698 --> 00:34:26,738
But these people can't.

463
00:34:26,838 --> 00:34:31,278
Like they're so far prior to really understanding this

464
00:34:31,278 --> 00:34:32,458
that Peter just has to argue with him

465
00:34:32,458 --> 00:34:34,238
about socialism in the first place.

466
00:34:34,278 --> 00:34:35,898
And the really tragic thing, I think,

467
00:34:35,898 --> 00:34:36,918
is that this is why I'm saying

468
00:34:36,918 --> 00:34:38,658
I'm somewhat sympathetic to this,

469
00:34:39,038 --> 00:34:40,798
only somewhat, only a little bit,

470
00:34:40,798 --> 00:34:45,398
is that you can see, given the circumstances they're in,

471
00:34:45,978 --> 00:34:50,278
given the problems caused by partly socialism and partly fiat,

472
00:34:50,638 --> 00:34:52,178
why they would be so mad about this.

473
00:34:52,238 --> 00:34:57,858
Because with a very narrow focus on what tangibly are their problems

474
00:34:57,858 --> 00:35:01,478
as opposed to intangibly all this grand theorizing,

475
00:35:01,778 --> 00:35:03,418
it's basically that they just can't afford anything.

476
00:35:03,418 --> 00:35:10,578
They see rich bankers and booming city trade

477
00:35:10,578 --> 00:35:15,098
or whatever. I don't know exactly how they conceptualize it. And then they'll realistically

478
00:35:15,098 --> 00:35:20,198
never be able to afford a home or something like that, which also goes to your point that that's

479
00:35:20,198 --> 00:35:27,038
because of real estate being monetized. But again, you know the circumstances they're in that make

480
00:35:27,038 --> 00:35:32,218
them feel that way, but you also know you're never going to be able to convince them that that's

481
00:35:32,218 --> 00:35:38,278
what's actually causing their problem. And so you just end up in this doom loop of socialism causes

482
00:35:38,278 --> 00:35:45,278
misery and poverty both of which cause people to want more socialism to try to fix it and like

483
00:35:45,278 --> 00:35:48,618
how do you get out of that and that it feels like that's basically what peter spends all his time

484
00:35:48,618 --> 00:35:53,658
arguing with people about that no it is actually worth trying to get out of it so like good for him

485
00:35:53,658 --> 00:36:00,118
i guess i i can't really tell if it's working but he's fighting well it's it's such that doom loop

486
00:36:00,118 --> 00:36:04,518
you talk about because it's like this idea that well i've been poisoned and in order to to stave

487
00:36:04,518 --> 00:36:09,138
off this poison the antidote is just more poison like we just need to you know like like that's the

488
00:36:09,138 --> 00:36:13,798
problem with it ultimately though is that it's like you see all this evidence and people like

489
00:36:13,798 --> 00:36:18,358
rightly as you called out they have this conceptualization of what they think quote

490
00:36:18,358 --> 00:36:23,378
capitalism is and maybe it's you know better to not even use it better to for us to start using

491
00:36:23,378 --> 00:36:27,778
terms like you know free market right because maybe capitalism has too much of a has too much of a

492
00:36:27,778 --> 00:36:34,438
like a stain on it in their minds already but it doesn't matter if you try to tell them like look

493
00:36:34,438 --> 00:36:38,778
capitalism is good because they already know with beyond a shadow of doubt that capitalism is bad

494
00:36:38,778 --> 00:36:41,978
and it's what causes their woes. And if you try to tell them, well, actually like the governments

495
00:36:41,978 --> 00:36:45,858
that we have, like especially in the UK, but you know, creeping in the US, like what you have is

496
00:36:45,858 --> 00:36:51,098
actually closer to socialism. Like you've got a huge amount of money being, you know, allocated

497
00:36:51,098 --> 00:36:55,838
and misallocated from the productive people and allocated towards the nonproductive people. But

498
00:36:55,838 --> 00:36:59,918
if you try to say that, they're like, nope, nope, that can't be true because socialism is supposed to

499
00:36:59,918 --> 00:37:03,298
be the good thing. And if we just give the government more power, socialism will finally

500
00:37:03,298 --> 00:37:09,698
work this time and it's like i don't know how i don't know if it's even maybe enough people can

501
00:37:09,698 --> 00:37:13,998
be swayed where it's worth it and you know god bless peter for for doing the lord's work out

502
00:37:13,998 --> 00:37:18,958
there trying to trying to deal with these people but i just don't know if it's possible for for

503
00:37:18,958 --> 00:37:24,338
people who have ideas that are so deeply entrenched like if you can you teach an old dog new tricks in

504
00:37:24,338 --> 00:37:28,598
this regard i don't i don't know the answer to that i don't know if people have just again dug

505
00:37:28,598 --> 00:37:33,098
in their heels so far that there is literally no hope for ever convincing them like look

506
00:37:33,098 --> 00:37:38,058
your entire worldview is predicated on a lie and because they've made this part of their identity

507
00:37:38,058 --> 00:37:42,238
that's the other problem it's part of their identity that i am anti-capitalist that i am

508
00:37:42,238 --> 00:37:47,778
pro-socialism because i'm a good person and good people and that's what it all comes down to right

509
00:37:47,778 --> 00:37:51,498
it's tied into your identity that you are somehow virtuous you are somehow more moral you are

510
00:37:51,498 --> 00:37:56,338
somehow more empathetic you are somehow more good i want to take care of everyone don't who wouldn't

511
00:37:56,338 --> 00:38:02,158
want to make sure you know health care is a human right and all the and you're just like ah i don't

512
00:38:02,158 --> 00:38:04,138
even know where to start. And the problem is that

513
00:38:04,138 --> 00:38:06,058
to us, it's a really dumb message

514
00:38:06,058 --> 00:38:08,318
because these things are just demonstrably

515
00:38:08,318 --> 00:38:10,238
false. They don't even pass

516
00:38:10,238 --> 00:38:12,378
basic muster. But they sound

517
00:38:12,378 --> 00:38:14,198
really good if you only think about

518
00:38:14,198 --> 00:38:16,158
them for like two seconds and you've never studied

519
00:38:16,158 --> 00:38:18,178
history or economics, even

520
00:38:18,178 --> 00:38:19,818
as a layman, or any of these things.

521
00:38:20,058 --> 00:38:22,318
They sound kind of good, and they especially sound good

522
00:38:22,318 --> 00:38:23,438
if you are struggling.

523
00:38:23,938 --> 00:38:26,158
And you perceive that the source

524
00:38:26,158 --> 00:38:27,678
of your struggle is this boogeyman

525
00:38:27,678 --> 00:38:28,858
called capitalism.

526
00:38:29,418 --> 00:38:32,118
I get it. I get why they're

527
00:38:32,158 --> 00:38:35,238
at that point. I just don't know how we get people away from that.

528
00:38:36,658 --> 00:38:39,438
Yeah, I mean, either. I don't know if you wanted me to be bullish on that.

529
00:38:39,538 --> 00:38:45,558
No, no, no. I'm just like, no, that wasn't even a question. That was just like a fuck, man. I don't

530
00:38:45,558 --> 00:38:53,438
know. It's tough. It's tough. But like, it's worth still trying, I think. And I think that

531
00:38:53,438 --> 00:38:59,238
you can get enough people to embrace common sense to make it a worthwhile pursuit. Maybe speaking of

532
00:38:59,238 --> 00:39:00,818
you know, embracing common sense.

533
00:39:00,818 --> 00:39:01,978
Well, okay, I'll be a little bit bullish.

534
00:39:01,978 --> 00:39:02,338
Yeah, go ahead.

535
00:39:02,498 --> 00:39:05,398
I'll kind of shill our bags a bit too.

536
00:39:05,538 --> 00:39:07,038
This is what I was going to ask you next, actually.

537
00:39:07,098 --> 00:39:07,658
So that's perfect.

538
00:39:07,958 --> 00:39:13,238
Yeah, that, I always hesitate to say,

539
00:39:13,338 --> 00:39:15,738
I've probably even said it to you or said it on this show

540
00:39:15,738 --> 00:39:19,558
that like, I don't want to tell people to buy Bitcoin, right?

541
00:39:19,618 --> 00:39:21,478
I feel like that's a little bit kind of on the nose.

542
00:39:21,598 --> 00:39:22,118
It's a bit crass.

543
00:39:22,278 --> 00:39:24,158
I'm comfortable with things like, you know,

544
00:39:24,198 --> 00:39:25,578
I feel like if you learn enough about it,

545
00:39:25,578 --> 00:39:27,378
you'll probably want to buy it on your own.

546
00:39:27,378 --> 00:39:30,678
but I feel like you have to want to buy it on your own, right?

547
00:39:30,738 --> 00:39:32,878
You have to, if you're just doing it

548
00:39:32,878 --> 00:39:33,838
because someone else told you to,

549
00:39:33,938 --> 00:39:36,298
then you'll sell it because someone else, again,

550
00:39:36,398 --> 00:39:37,778
told you to and you haven't really achieved anything.

551
00:39:37,858 --> 00:39:38,598
You probably lose money.

552
00:39:39,958 --> 00:39:42,198
But I think there's a way of tying that in that

553
00:39:42,198 --> 00:39:47,238
I really do want to generalize it a bit beyond,

554
00:39:47,478 --> 00:39:49,798
yeah, literally just shilling my own bags

555
00:39:49,798 --> 00:39:52,338
and number go up to maybe something like

556
00:39:52,338 --> 00:39:55,838
treating buying Bitcoin as indicative of,

557
00:39:55,838 --> 00:40:00,558
say lowering one's time preference right if we want to throw out another one of our our memes

558
00:40:00,558 --> 00:40:06,918
um that by what buying bitcoin would achieve you don't want to think of it as like a lottery ticket

559
00:40:06,918 --> 00:40:11,698
to avoid this cycle of misery and poverty or whatever that's probably an unhealthy approach

560
00:40:11,698 --> 00:40:19,378
to it you you want to think of it as a you want to understand that it is savings first and foremost

561
00:40:19,378 --> 00:40:24,278
and that, you know, the reason that you save is to,

562
00:40:25,018 --> 00:40:26,598
actually, I'm not even sure how to conclude that.

563
00:40:26,658 --> 00:40:30,438
This is getting a little bit more kind of philosophical

564
00:40:30,438 --> 00:40:32,338
than I was maybe intending when I started the ramble.

565
00:40:32,338 --> 00:40:32,598
Do it.

566
00:40:32,918 --> 00:40:34,778
You want to lower your time preference, basically.

567
00:40:34,898 --> 00:40:43,178
Like, you want this to be part of improving your overall standing in life, right?

568
00:40:43,178 --> 00:40:47,158
and ideally as paired with,

569
00:40:47,338 --> 00:40:49,098
you know, building skills

570
00:40:49,098 --> 00:40:52,318
that enable you to add value for others

571
00:40:52,318 --> 00:40:55,438
such that you can start to be more independent,

572
00:40:55,818 --> 00:40:58,298
start to have somewhat sustainable sources of income,

573
00:40:58,438 --> 00:41:00,498
which potentially then go towards buying more Bitcoin

574
00:41:00,498 --> 00:41:01,478
and so on and so forth.

575
00:41:01,538 --> 00:41:04,578
Again, your audience doesn't need this as advice.

576
00:41:04,578 --> 00:41:07,538
I'm trying to think how to best conceptualize all of this

577
00:41:07,538 --> 00:41:09,358
other than just saying buy Bitcoin.

578
00:41:09,798 --> 00:41:12,018
But back to your point about what do you do about it?

579
00:41:12,018 --> 00:41:16,958
I think the more you can encourage this at the micro level,

580
00:41:17,638 --> 00:41:20,598
the less we'll see of exactly the kind of problem

581
00:41:20,598 --> 00:41:21,298
that you're identifying.

582
00:41:21,498 --> 00:41:24,158
Because again, I really do have sympathy for someone who,

583
00:41:24,898 --> 00:41:26,358
you know, especially if they've wrapped up

584
00:41:26,358 --> 00:41:29,778
in all this kind of emotional, frankly, nonsense

585
00:41:29,778 --> 00:41:31,218
about how good a person they are.

586
00:41:32,078 --> 00:41:46,116
But ultimately it somewhat materialistic in that it derived from they literally can afford anything right Like the situation that the combination of fiat and socialism has caused for them is they will never own a home

587
00:41:46,516 --> 00:41:48,776
They'll be paid shit wages

588
00:41:48,776 --> 00:41:51,436
because nobody can be bothered starting a business

589
00:41:51,436 --> 00:41:53,256
and accumulating any capital in the first place

590
00:41:53,256 --> 00:41:56,836
to enable them to generate any income

591
00:41:56,836 --> 00:41:58,916
from the productivity of their labor.

592
00:41:59,456 --> 00:42:01,336
And then in the meantime, real estate is monetized,

593
00:42:01,376 --> 00:42:02,156
so they can't afford anything.

594
00:42:02,276 --> 00:42:04,336
So they just feel like they're on a hamster wheel.

595
00:42:04,336 --> 00:42:08,976
They'll never get off and they've identified the fake boogeyman of capitalism.

596
00:42:08,976 --> 00:42:09,956
Like, whatever.

597
00:42:10,916 --> 00:42:12,936
None of this is permanent.

598
00:42:13,556 --> 00:42:19,276
And it's not permanent at the macro level, but at the micro level of the individual making the decision.

599
00:42:19,416 --> 00:42:29,976
If you can encourage the shift in mindset, as opposed to necessarily treating it as like you need to change their entire worldview, right?

600
00:42:29,976 --> 00:42:35,156
like you need to give them a new philosophy of economics and politics and whatever else.

601
00:42:35,816 --> 00:42:45,936
You can chip away in a healthier fashion by just trying to change their way of thinking and their day-to-day actions.

602
00:42:46,116 --> 00:42:53,916
I think that's the bull case, that that route is both preferable, but I think more easily achievable as well.

603
00:42:55,036 --> 00:42:57,976
I think that that's fair, and I would agree with that.

604
00:42:57,976 --> 00:43:03,536
to play devil's advocate to it, I would say, you know, it's, it's difficult to get people to,

605
00:43:04,136 --> 00:43:07,836
you know, if we're saying, you know, starting from, okay, if you start to understand Bitcoin,

606
00:43:07,916 --> 00:43:11,496
you start to understand why savings is important, and you lower your time preference that you're

607
00:43:11,496 --> 00:43:15,116
actually, you know, you realize the reason for savings, right at a fundamental level,

608
00:43:15,476 --> 00:43:21,556
that that can ultimately lead to these other, these other changes in your belief structure,

609
00:43:21,556 --> 00:43:26,876
right, because some of them necessarily follow from that shift in mentality around

610
00:43:26,876 --> 00:43:32,296
what is saving, what is, you know, what is Bitcoin, what is money. I think part of the problem

611
00:43:32,296 --> 00:43:37,756
more broadly, and again, I agree with that thesis of yours, and I know it's been true for me in

612
00:43:37,756 --> 00:43:41,116
terms of my own journey down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, probably true for a lot of people listening

613
00:43:41,116 --> 00:43:45,416
to this, that that learning about Bitcoin and maybe just coming for the number go up, coming

614
00:43:45,416 --> 00:43:51,096
for that initial part of like, I want to have more money, and then going down that rabbit hole and

615
00:43:51,096 --> 00:43:56,736
learning more. That's a journey so many have taken, myself included. I think part of the

616
00:43:56,736 --> 00:44:01,856
difficulty is that it's, you know, maybe Bitcoin number go up just doesn't seem, maybe the number

617
00:44:01,856 --> 00:44:07,576
doesn't go up enough for people that are looking for like, I need a 10x return by tomorrow. Like,

618
00:44:07,636 --> 00:44:11,396
you know what I mean? Like, so it's so hard to start, you know, trying to get people to understand

619
00:44:11,396 --> 00:44:16,176
the lowering of the time preference, the inclination towards savings, why Bitcoin is

620
00:44:16,176 --> 00:44:20,696
such a perfect vehicle for savings, when it's like, well, they don't want us even learn about

621
00:44:20,696 --> 00:44:25,316
savings they want to gamble and we see the proliferation of all these predictive prediction

622
00:44:25,316 --> 00:44:32,856
markets we see is why crypto in quotes has been so uh powerful and pernicious is because people

623
00:44:32,856 --> 00:44:38,416
they don't want to save wealth slowly they want to get rich quick and but it's like boy maybe you

624
00:44:38,416 --> 00:44:44,616
get burned enough times and you finally come around to bitcoin i i i don't know but i i do

625
00:44:44,616 --> 00:44:51,036
agree with that thesis more broadly that yes once you start learning about the need for savings why

626
00:44:51,036 --> 00:44:54,956
it's important why you should lower your time preference how bitcoin fits into that so many of

627
00:44:54,956 --> 00:44:59,276
these other things naturally follow you're going to start learning about how you know oh maybe the

628
00:44:59,276 --> 00:45:03,536
causes of the pain that i've been experiencing are not from the things that i thought they were

629
00:45:03,536 --> 00:45:07,536
from and that i've been always told that they were from maybe it's from these other forces that have

630
00:45:07,536 --> 00:45:13,656
remained hidden to me uh for some time but yeah you know one person at a time right like every

631
00:45:13,656 --> 00:45:21,616
That's why I do this podcast, because I hope that even one new person tuning in who makes them think about something a little bit differently, it can change your life.

632
00:45:21,876 --> 00:45:23,356
It can completely change your life.

633
00:45:23,456 --> 00:45:30,676
You can stop being a victim of the capitalist boogeyman and start being a value creator and a producer.

634
00:45:30,916 --> 00:45:32,296
But it does take some time.

635
00:45:32,476 --> 00:45:33,276
It takes some time, Alan.

636
00:45:34,476 --> 00:45:40,656
I do want to ask you, you brought up Bitcoin is Venice earlier and what you and Sasha are working on and how this current number go down.

637
00:45:40,656 --> 00:45:46,956
thesis article is is fitting into this larger narrative of what you guys have planned and what

638
00:45:46,956 --> 00:45:50,916
you have going right now can you can you explore that a little bit yeah sure so we're we're doing

639
00:45:50,916 --> 00:45:59,256
a second edition of the book uh which will be mostly just revisions it's not like version two

640
00:45:59,256 --> 00:46:04,496
it's not like entirely new content uh it's it's it is a true second edition for the most part

641
00:46:04,496 --> 00:46:06,536
but there will be some new content.

642
00:46:06,736 --> 00:46:10,656
We're undecided exactly where we want to fit it all in.

643
00:46:11,216 --> 00:46:12,836
But we've been working on this for quite a while,

644
00:46:12,836 --> 00:46:14,056
as you can imagine.

645
00:46:14,176 --> 00:46:17,836
This was kind of the priority in terms of thinking

646
00:46:17,836 --> 00:46:19,976
that we'd sort of identified a gap

647
00:46:19,976 --> 00:46:23,036
that we hadn't really covered the first time around.

648
00:46:23,176 --> 00:46:26,816
And so we knew where we wanted to slot this in

649
00:46:26,816 --> 00:46:28,136
as we were revising it.

650
00:46:28,296 --> 00:46:30,996
We also wanted it to work on its own though.

651
00:46:30,996 --> 00:46:43,896
So, you know, we were quite deliberate about releasing it in the way we did, not mentioning Bitcoin, for example, that that's partly derivative of where we expect it to go in in the book, because we also won't have mentioned Bitcoin by then.

652
00:46:43,896 --> 00:46:54,456
But we want it to work as a standalone essay that, you know, very similar to what you just commented, right, that that hopefully at least one or two people find this or they get sent it or whatever.

653
00:46:54,816 --> 00:46:59,756
And and ideally it changes their mind, but, you know, partly about inflation, partly about economics.

654
00:46:59,756 --> 00:47:09,876
But as I alluded to before, because we don't mention Bitcoin, like maybe they then kind of come to Bitcoin on their own without us having to, you know, shove it down their throats.

655
00:47:11,136 --> 00:47:14,956
So, yeah, so we wanted to work standalone and we'll probably do that.

656
00:47:15,396 --> 00:47:20,496
I don't want to commit to this because we are on a relatively tight deadline in terms of knowing how much more we want to write.

657
00:47:21,396 --> 00:47:22,556
We might do this one more time.

658
00:47:22,596 --> 00:47:28,096
We might have one new completely standalone chapter that we release in, you know, maybe a couple of months.

659
00:47:28,096 --> 00:47:35,416
um but they'll slot in and then the rest of it will be revised updated hopefully just improved

660
00:47:35,416 --> 00:47:40,816
like i i very much think that i very much hope knowing partly what we've done partly what we

661
00:47:40,816 --> 00:47:46,696
plan to do that the second edition will be better than the first i mean i'm not sure how that relates

662
00:47:46,696 --> 00:47:51,016
to like do i want to encourage people to go buy it again if they already have the first one yeah

663
00:47:51,016 --> 00:47:57,416
maybe i mean the new stuff will be online so maybe not it's up to them um but for for noobs uh

664
00:47:57,416 --> 00:48:01,116
yeah would very much encourage it and actually bitcoin magazine have been have been great about

665
00:48:01,116 --> 00:48:04,776
this there's there's some stuff i don't want to be i don't want to say now because i don't think

666
00:48:04,776 --> 00:48:09,256
they so bitcoin magazine publish it that's the point of that reference um and we've been chatting

667
00:48:09,256 --> 00:48:15,076
to them a lot more recently as we build up to like the plan for how we're going to publish this

668
00:48:15,076 --> 00:48:22,076
um there's some things that we are discussing with them that they haven't agreed to yet precisely so

669
00:48:22,076 --> 00:48:25,716
i don't want to say them now but i i think it'll be fine i think they'll go through and it'll be

670
00:48:25,716 --> 00:48:30,956
it'll be really fun what we're able to do uh we do know though like the entire uh the deadlines

671
00:48:30,956 --> 00:48:33,736
that were being set like the schedule we're working to is that they're going to publish it

672
00:48:33,736 --> 00:48:39,316
at the next conference so nashville next year is when this will come out they'll also sunset the

673
00:48:39,316 --> 00:48:43,956
first one so we won't be able to get the first edition anymore so for noobs very much nudging

674
00:48:43,956 --> 00:48:48,356
them to get the second one and then also the interesting thing too um again i'll kind of dance

675
00:48:48,356 --> 00:48:51,576
around this because i don't want to i don't want to promise things i haven't been fully agreed to

676
00:48:51,576 --> 00:48:58,496
yet but uh interesting detail that uh bitcoin is venice you know the first one uh so far the only

677
00:48:58,496 --> 00:49:05,376
one that was the first book that bitcoin magazine ever published and so they're kind of it almost

678
00:49:05,376 --> 00:49:09,856
has like i don't know emotional or sentimental value let's say to them in the sense that

679
00:49:09,856 --> 00:49:16,896
they're they're revamping their entire publishing effort and it's quite exciting how basically how

680
00:49:16,896 --> 00:49:21,176
much more of a machine they have to drive this now like not know that they did anything wrong

681
00:49:21,176 --> 00:49:26,196
last time just to be completely clear but it was kind of experimental for for all of us um very much

682
00:49:26,196 --> 00:49:31,536
me and sasha included whereas this time you know all the things that i'm not quite allowed to say

683
00:49:31,536 --> 00:49:36,596
yet are like really exciting ways that they're going to help promote it um and hopefully get it

684
00:49:36,596 --> 00:49:40,576
to you know many many more normies than we did the first time around that's ultimately the goal

685
00:49:40,576 --> 00:49:45,656
it's it's it's interesting too i was just thinking as you were talking about it like first of all i

686
00:49:45,656 --> 00:49:50,636
mean the the the title of bitcoin is venice is is great right especially i think for bitcoiners it's

687
00:49:50,636 --> 00:49:53,036
it's very much, even for non-Bitcoiners,

688
00:49:53,076 --> 00:49:56,096
I think it's very, it's intriguing, right?

689
00:49:56,236 --> 00:49:57,556
It's an intriguing title.

690
00:49:58,056 --> 00:49:59,956
Do you think just because, you know,

691
00:50:00,056 --> 00:50:01,236
you were also talking about, okay,

692
00:50:01,236 --> 00:50:05,816
not wanting to mention Bitcoin, you know, right away,

693
00:50:05,996 --> 00:50:06,876
or, you know, you haven't mentioned it,

694
00:50:06,956 --> 00:50:09,436
but it's like, but it is in the title, right?

695
00:50:09,656 --> 00:50:12,036
So, you know, like, it is kind of mentioned,

696
00:50:12,136 --> 00:50:13,916
like, actually, you know,

697
00:50:14,196 --> 00:50:16,836
as the first thing they see is part of that.

698
00:50:17,856 --> 00:50:20,256
I mean, how do you think about that in terms of like,

699
00:50:20,256 --> 00:50:22,736
okay, yeah, we want to bury the lead with the Bitcoin thing.

700
00:50:22,836 --> 00:50:23,916
But then it's also like, hey, by the way,

701
00:50:23,916 --> 00:50:25,176
the title is Bitcoin is Venice.

702
00:50:25,596 --> 00:50:25,776
You know?

703
00:50:26,316 --> 00:50:28,236
I haven't thought about this in a really long time,

704
00:50:28,276 --> 00:50:30,156
but we thought about it a lot

705
00:50:30,156 --> 00:50:33,256
when we were publishing the first time around.

706
00:50:33,836 --> 00:50:36,076
Because if the audience is unfamiliar,

707
00:50:36,896 --> 00:50:38,836
the point of Bitcoin is Venice, both editions,

708
00:50:38,956 --> 00:50:41,296
I won't keep qualifying which one I'm talking about.

709
00:50:41,796 --> 00:50:45,316
The point is that, first of all,

710
00:50:45,416 --> 00:50:48,216
each chapter kind of works as a standalone essay,

711
00:50:48,216 --> 00:50:50,876
which is more reflective of the way we wrote it.

712
00:50:50,936 --> 00:50:53,316
It's not like we set out to write a collection of essays.

713
00:50:53,416 --> 00:50:54,736
It's like a lot of the essays were written

714
00:50:54,736 --> 00:50:56,416
and we were sort of cobbling them together

715
00:50:56,416 --> 00:50:57,456
into something coherent.

716
00:50:58,036 --> 00:50:59,436
But that does allow, for example,

717
00:50:59,576 --> 00:51:00,416
like with Number Go Down,

718
00:51:00,516 --> 00:51:01,896
we can just post it on its own

719
00:51:01,896 --> 00:51:03,076
and it can get its own attention

720
00:51:03,076 --> 00:51:04,236
and it doesn't need to be wrapped up

721
00:51:04,236 --> 00:51:05,136
with the book necessarily.

722
00:51:06,516 --> 00:51:08,596
But also that throughout,

723
00:51:09,116 --> 00:51:11,456
the very few of the original ones

724
00:51:11,456 --> 00:51:14,996
had much to do about Bitcoin anyway.

725
00:51:14,996 --> 00:51:16,996
Some of them kind of mentioned Bitcoin in passing.

726
00:51:17,136 --> 00:51:17,996
Some of them were...

727
00:51:18,216 --> 00:51:21,336
obviously alluding to Bitcoin, even if Bitcoin wasn't mentioned.

728
00:51:21,496 --> 00:51:23,856
And then others were clearly about Bitcoin.

729
00:51:24,136 --> 00:51:26,936
But in terms of the content, I mean, I don't know the exact number.

730
00:51:27,056 --> 00:51:28,076
It's quite a long book as well.

731
00:51:28,136 --> 00:51:32,596
But I'd say for the first edition, probably like a third of it was actually about Bitcoin.

732
00:51:32,596 --> 00:51:34,656
And it was mostly like the last third.

733
00:51:34,656 --> 00:51:41,296
Because the real point of the book is it's an argument about,

734
00:51:41,416 --> 00:51:42,896
it touches on what we covered before.

735
00:51:42,996 --> 00:51:48,176
It's an argument about what capitalism is, like how you should think about capitalism.

736
00:51:48,216 --> 00:51:53,516
So I don't know if it's not too pretentious, you might call that like philosophy of economics or something like that.

737
00:51:54,516 --> 00:51:57,576
I mean, it just builds up and up and up to then getting to Bitcoin.

738
00:51:57,736 --> 00:52:03,136
But the idea with that flow, and this is something that we're being even more deliberate about when we're revising the second edition.

739
00:52:03,396 --> 00:52:09,716
The idea with that flow is to kind of try to convince the reader that they already believe in Bitcoin.

740
00:52:09,716 --> 00:52:21,436
They don't know it yet, but they already believe enough things that when presented with the right perspective, the Bitcoin element should just click into paste.

741
00:52:21,736 --> 00:52:31,316
And they should almost have like an aha moment of, you know, without even really being told that much about Bitcoin, like, oh, of course I believe in Bitcoin because I believe all these other things.

742
00:52:31,456 --> 00:52:35,496
Like that's the, if that happens, that's success for us.

743
00:52:36,556 --> 00:52:39,276
So that's, you know, what you should know about the book.

744
00:52:39,276 --> 00:52:43,296
As to the title, though, we went back and forth on this a lot.

745
00:52:43,956 --> 00:52:45,656
And I'm glad you like it.

746
00:52:45,736 --> 00:52:49,336
I'm glad you think it's, I forget exactly what you said, but it's like it's an evocative title.

747
00:52:50,476 --> 00:53:01,756
We only thought to use it because the essay, the original essay, which was called Bitcoin is Venice, but for like better reasons that, you know, makes sense in the context of what is being said in the essay.

748
00:53:02,296 --> 00:53:06,256
That just was wildly more successful than we'd anticipated.

749
00:53:06,256 --> 00:53:08,476
and it had kind of quite a good brand.

750
00:53:09,396 --> 00:53:14,336
And the messaging of it was something that we felt,

751
00:53:14,976 --> 00:53:19,136
I guess, did capture quite well the thread of the book,

752
00:53:19,176 --> 00:53:20,216
even though, again, most of the book

753
00:53:20,216 --> 00:53:21,136
wasn't really about Bitcoin,

754
00:53:21,356 --> 00:53:23,696
but it's a fitting conclusion

755
00:53:23,696 --> 00:53:26,556
to what everything else is in the book.

756
00:53:26,556 --> 00:53:29,176
And then weigh that up with, you know,

757
00:53:29,956 --> 00:53:33,616
some or other title that captured philosophy of economics.

758
00:53:33,616 --> 00:53:36,456
I don't think anyone would care about.

759
00:53:36,556 --> 00:53:37,936
We never had a good idea.

760
00:53:38,056 --> 00:53:39,056
If you have a good idea now,

761
00:53:39,276 --> 00:53:41,016
please tell me and we'll consider stealing it.

762
00:53:41,096 --> 00:53:42,576
But we never had any good idea.

763
00:53:42,696 --> 00:53:43,876
The way I've always joked about it

764
00:53:43,876 --> 00:53:45,676
is that the title is actually clickbait, right?

765
00:53:45,796 --> 00:53:47,276
Bitcoin is Venice is complete clickbait.

766
00:53:47,936 --> 00:53:49,316
The subtitle, which is

767
00:53:49,316 --> 00:53:51,136
Essays on the Past and Future of Capitalism,

768
00:53:51,256 --> 00:53:53,316
that's actually a good description.

769
00:53:53,756 --> 00:53:55,136
It's a terrible title, but that's fine.

770
00:53:55,276 --> 00:53:56,956
They work well in combination.

771
00:53:57,176 --> 00:53:59,956
So we've got the clickbaity meme title

772
00:53:59,956 --> 00:54:01,896
that's evocative and it gets people interested.

773
00:54:01,896 --> 00:54:06,796
uh it's not complete nonsense because it does reflect something that is eventually in the book

774
00:54:06,796 --> 00:54:13,256
um but it you know it hooks you and then you you learn about economics by accident

775
00:54:13,256 --> 00:54:22,296
i mean it is it's a one might call it a sly roundabout way perhaps you know way of educating

776
00:54:22,296 --> 00:54:28,356
you yeah yeah that would be that would maybe be the other uh other title i would suggest but

777
00:54:28,356 --> 00:54:29,696
That's a little too overdone.

778
00:54:29,876 --> 00:54:30,276
You know what I mean?

779
00:54:30,376 --> 00:54:32,176
That one's not quite as unique.

780
00:54:32,356 --> 00:54:33,496
And Bitcoin is Venice, obviously,

781
00:54:33,596 --> 00:54:35,376
is a ton of just like, let's say,

782
00:54:35,436 --> 00:54:37,816
brand recognition now at this point.

783
00:54:38,876 --> 00:54:40,856
I want to kind of loop back,

784
00:54:40,956 --> 00:54:42,316
and I'm excited people should.

785
00:54:42,456 --> 00:54:43,256
So what you're also telling me

786
00:54:43,256 --> 00:54:44,896
is that people want to get the first edition of the book

787
00:54:44,896 --> 00:54:46,276
as like a collector's item now.

788
00:54:46,696 --> 00:54:47,836
Will that actually be out of print?

789
00:54:48,456 --> 00:54:50,016
But I guess if that's, yeah,

790
00:54:50,096 --> 00:54:51,296
that's a reasonable interpretation.

791
00:54:51,796 --> 00:54:51,876
Yeah.

792
00:54:52,096 --> 00:54:54,236
Just, okay, you heard it here first.

793
00:54:55,116 --> 00:54:57,296
But, okay, so I do want to get back a little bit.

794
00:54:57,296 --> 00:54:59,556
Yeah, one might say it's a scarce asset.

795
00:54:59,836 --> 00:55:00,796
They're not printing anymore.

796
00:55:01,416 --> 00:55:02,316
Oh, there we go.

797
00:55:02,816 --> 00:55:04,416
But they won't be eventually.

798
00:55:05,196 --> 00:55:05,736
There you go.

799
00:55:05,796 --> 00:55:09,716
There's a defined supply schedule, one might say.

800
00:55:09,716 --> 00:55:10,856
Hard cap on the supply.

801
00:55:11,016 --> 00:55:12,476
Even more scarce than Bitcoin.

802
00:55:13,436 --> 00:55:14,116
Yeah, exactly.

803
00:55:14,236 --> 00:55:14,596
Oh, boy.

804
00:55:14,956 --> 00:55:17,936
You know, Peter Schiff is going to be coming after you soon here, too.

805
00:55:19,016 --> 00:55:25,016
I want to talk a little bit just about, let's say, let's talk more broadly about capitalism

806
00:55:25,016 --> 00:55:29,136
and this idea that again we've kind of established that capitalism has become this boogeyman

807
00:55:29,136 --> 00:55:34,836
it's very much become like this it's it's used incorrectly right or it's it's not understood

808
00:55:34,836 --> 00:55:38,896
fundamentally yeah do you think you know the communists are always saying like well real

809
00:55:38,896 --> 00:55:45,096
communism's never been tried has real capitalism ever been tried in a meaningful way i think that's

810
00:55:45,096 --> 00:55:50,656
actually one of the better critiques of not exactly a bitcoin is venus but of um it's not

811
00:55:50,656 --> 00:55:56,776
really a bitcoin thing it's sort of kind of this austrian i guess if you want to call it like anti

812
00:55:56,776 --> 00:56:01,936
fiat line of argument about whenever everyone says you know this is not again this is not

813
00:56:01,936 --> 00:56:07,896
capitalism is kind of a meme too just because we right that titles of one of the chapters but

814
00:56:07,896 --> 00:56:14,236
but yeah well has it has it ever actually been tried um i think that that is

815
00:56:14,236 --> 00:56:24,956
it's cute as uh as an attack but it's not entirely serious because the sense in which we are claiming

816
00:56:24,956 --> 00:56:30,416
this isn't real capitalism is very very different from the sense in which the communists claim that

817
00:56:30,416 --> 00:56:36,856
they haven't done real communism so in the case of uh fake communists my guess are like

818
00:56:36,856 --> 00:56:44,656
aborted attempts at communism and it has in fact been the communists in charge and they mess

819
00:56:44,656 --> 00:56:51,396
everything up and they want another try whereas in the case of what we're claiming is in capitalism

820
00:56:51,396 --> 00:56:56,316
it's oh actually one other thing to say about communism that is sort of key as a contrast is

821
00:56:56,316 --> 00:57:00,576
while it's happening they're perfectly happy to call it communism they never claim

822
00:57:00,576 --> 00:57:05,796
oh this isn't this isn't going well until it's over and they failed and then they want to try

823
00:57:05,796 --> 00:57:08,816
again and they want to call it the same thing again and they want to call themselves the same

824
00:57:08,816 --> 00:57:15,736
thing again um whereas with the the analog of you know this isn't real capitalism we should try real

825
00:57:15,736 --> 00:57:22,056
capitalism uh it's still the communists in charge they're just they're just calling it something

826
00:57:22,056 --> 00:57:28,216
else this time and then the people who are outside who are complaining you know aren't complaining

827
00:57:28,216 --> 00:57:35,496
about their own failed attempts they're complaining about the kind of um the oh there's definitely

828
00:57:35,496 --> 00:57:41,476
like i'm blanking on the right expression for this it's like um like plagiarism almost of you

829
00:57:41,476 --> 00:57:47,756
know stop using that word because that's not what this is like you're you're misrepresenting you're

830
00:57:47,756 --> 00:57:52,996
you're falsely advertising what you're doing to try to get away with it right so it's it's a very

831
00:57:52,996 --> 00:57:57,676
different um it's very different circumstances for the people claiming that it's not the real thing

832
00:57:57,676 --> 00:58:04,116
yeah no that that's that's completely fair and it is very much like a kind of cute tongue-in-cheek

833
00:58:04,116 --> 00:58:07,856
thing to say because it's just like the whole real communism has never been tried thing it's

834
00:58:07,856 --> 00:58:11,556
just so absurd on its face you're like okay well if we're going to be absurd like you know i'll

835
00:58:11,556 --> 00:58:17,596
throw this out there but i think one can make a a strong argument that again perhaps like

836
00:58:17,596 --> 00:58:22,996
if we talk about capitalism in terms of talking about free markets it's like can you have an

837
00:58:22,996 --> 00:58:27,936
a true free market without a free market in money like if you have a central bank who's able to set

838
00:58:27,936 --> 00:58:33,216
the price of able to set the price of money you know then okay well that's something that like

839
00:58:33,216 --> 00:58:37,296
Marx was all about a central bank for issuance of credit, right?

840
00:58:37,356 --> 00:58:39,256
That's literally in the Communist Manifesto.

841
00:58:39,256 --> 00:58:41,736
So how can you have a free market?

842
00:58:41,856 --> 00:58:46,996
How can you have capitalism when something so foundational as the price of money

843
00:58:46,996 --> 00:58:50,156
is set by a centralized bureaucratic institution?

844
00:58:50,296 --> 00:58:52,996
I think that's a fair way to frame that.

845
00:58:53,016 --> 00:58:53,476
Would you agree?

846
00:58:53,656 --> 00:58:54,696
Yeah, definitely.

847
00:58:54,996 --> 00:59:02,256
If anything, I feel like it nicely captures the difficulty that we have

848
00:59:02,256 --> 00:59:05,036
in, I don't know if you want to call it education

849
00:59:05,036 --> 00:59:10,176
or like just meme craft, I suppose.

850
00:59:10,376 --> 00:59:13,756
Like whatever your means is of reaching normies

851
00:59:13,756 --> 00:59:15,096
because I think it's, you know,

852
00:59:15,116 --> 00:59:16,076
exactly as you allude to,

853
00:59:16,236 --> 00:59:17,756
0.5 in the Communist Manifesto

854
00:59:17,756 --> 00:59:20,116
was asking for the nationalization of credit.

855
00:59:21,236 --> 00:59:23,056
We have since had that.

856
00:59:23,136 --> 00:59:24,236
I mean, this was written considerably

857
00:59:24,236 --> 00:59:26,516
before, considerably earlier

858
00:59:26,516 --> 00:59:30,356
than any modern instantiation of a central bank.

859
00:59:30,356 --> 00:59:32,276
and that is now virtually exactly what it does,

860
00:59:32,396 --> 00:59:35,676
which means I think it's completely accurate

861
00:59:35,676 --> 00:59:38,996
and not like, I don't think it's in any way

862
00:59:38,996 --> 00:59:42,476
derogatory or overly rhetorical.

863
00:59:42,856 --> 00:59:47,136
It's just accurate to say that central banking is communist.

864
00:59:47,396 --> 00:59:49,396
The monetary system is in fact communist.

865
00:59:49,556 --> 00:59:51,256
I'm not saying it in the way I've said communist

866
00:59:51,256 --> 00:59:52,216
a couple of times before,

867
00:59:52,316 --> 00:59:55,576
which is probably my bad for kind of confusing the two

868
00:59:55,576 --> 00:59:58,236
for the sake of amusement.

869
00:59:58,236 --> 01:00:01,916
but in this case, it just is communist.

870
01:00:02,956 --> 01:00:05,696
And as you've just alluded to there as well,

871
01:00:06,856 --> 01:00:08,376
money is half of every trade.

872
01:00:08,696 --> 01:00:12,976
So can you really have, if you're looking for a free market

873
01:00:12,976 --> 01:00:17,176
and you're finding that the money

874
01:00:17,176 --> 01:00:19,756
that is lubricating the market is not free,

875
01:00:19,836 --> 01:00:21,336
it's a perfectly good question to ask

876
01:00:21,336 --> 01:00:23,096
whether you even have a free market in the first place.

877
01:00:23,456 --> 01:00:25,536
But if you try to present any of this to a normie,

878
01:00:25,696 --> 01:00:27,136
they're just not gonna have any clue

879
01:00:27,136 --> 01:00:27,796
what you're talking about.

880
01:00:27,796 --> 01:00:30,956
You're like, I don't think I've even done this.

881
01:00:31,036 --> 01:00:31,976
So this is purely hypothetical.

882
01:00:32,136 --> 01:00:34,396
But if you say, you know, our money is communist, right?

883
01:00:34,916 --> 01:00:37,316
Like no one will know what you're talking about.

884
01:00:37,656 --> 01:00:39,356
No one will even take you seriously.

885
01:00:39,536 --> 01:00:44,256
Never mind, like actually recognize what it is you're pointing out about the money.

886
01:00:45,256 --> 01:00:46,136
So it's tough.

887
01:00:46,456 --> 01:00:47,196
It's tough out there.

888
01:00:48,076 --> 01:00:49,036
It is.

889
01:00:49,196 --> 01:00:53,596
And, you know, again, it's like, what do you mean the money is communist central bank?

890
01:00:53,896 --> 01:00:56,296
In a communist utopia, there will be no money.

891
01:00:56,296 --> 01:00:57,156
And we'll all be artists.

892
01:00:57,156 --> 01:00:58,296
What are you talking about?

893
01:00:58,396 --> 01:01:00,556
You know, like you can't, you can't even, it's like, oh, okay.

894
01:01:00,596 --> 01:01:03,276
Like, I don't even know where to start with this.

895
01:01:04,056 --> 01:01:12,196
Let me, let me ask you too, as we move forward in time, what are your opinions on whether

896
01:01:12,196 --> 01:01:17,076
or not the various fiat systems that exist around the world, various fiat currencies

897
01:01:17,076 --> 01:01:23,716
issued by central banks continue to persist even under a hypothetical, hyper-Bitcoinized

898
01:01:23,716 --> 01:01:24,856
world, let's say.

899
01:01:24,856 --> 01:01:29,616
I have my position on what this is, but like, let's go deep into the future.

900
01:01:30,476 --> 01:01:32,756
Bitcoin is far more ubiquitous than it is today.

901
01:01:33,396 --> 01:01:37,196
It's used in all sorts of different financial instruments as well.

902
01:01:37,336 --> 01:01:41,756
Think, let a thousand micro strategies bloom or something like this.

903
01:01:42,036 --> 01:01:43,836
But like, it's much more ubiquitous.

904
01:01:43,936 --> 01:01:44,816
It's much more integrated.

905
01:01:44,936 --> 01:01:46,056
It's much more commonplace.

906
01:01:46,936 --> 01:01:52,496
Do governments slash central banks still persist in issuing their own fiat currency, one?

907
01:01:52,496 --> 01:02:04,276
And then two, is there at least more, is there more, let's say, honesty in that issuance because there is a credible exit that is widely known?

908
01:02:04,496 --> 01:02:05,176
Does that make sense?

909
01:02:05,736 --> 01:02:08,496
I don't have a good theory.

910
01:02:08,576 --> 01:02:10,016
I'm curious on what your theory is, actually.

911
01:02:10,216 --> 01:02:16,836
Please say after I finish my ramble, but I don't have a kind of a base case for this.

912
01:02:16,836 --> 01:02:18,956
I can imagine different scenarios,

913
01:02:18,956 --> 01:02:21,736
but I think what they'll all come down to,

914
01:02:21,736 --> 01:02:39,994
like the variables that I have no clue on that will predict which of these we end up in i think are probably effectiveness of education in general because i feel like that some i not been involved for long enough that i i feel like

915
01:02:39,994 --> 01:02:46,954
i can say i'm a little bit disappointed that basically the more people aren't aware of the

916
01:02:46,954 --> 01:02:50,734
stuff that we've been talking about for like 10 years or five years or whatever at this point

917
01:02:50,734 --> 01:02:55,634
and it's not clear to me how that really fixes itself.

918
01:02:55,834 --> 01:02:57,334
I feel like the trend is,

919
01:02:57,614 --> 01:02:59,314
that's one thing I should qualify all this with.

920
01:02:59,574 --> 01:03:00,814
The trends I think are inevitable.

921
01:03:01,114 --> 01:03:02,434
So the point I'm making,

922
01:03:02,854 --> 01:03:05,714
I think it's extremely unlikely that Bitcoin actually fails

923
01:03:05,714 --> 01:03:07,594
even without being too precise about what that means.

924
01:03:08,334 --> 01:03:10,674
But I am very hesitant to be like,

925
01:03:10,814 --> 01:03:13,474
will this take five years or will this take 50 years

926
01:03:13,474 --> 01:03:14,814
or will it take 200 years?

927
01:03:14,814 --> 01:03:16,294
That I kind of don't know.

928
01:03:16,294 --> 01:03:37,134
So one is education or like just spread of knowledge, like awareness, right? And then the other is the effectiveness of political or just like violence in general as a way of preventing the first one, right, as a way of preventing people from using it.

929
01:03:37,134 --> 01:03:40,914
I'm not entirely clear on how effective that can be either.

930
01:03:40,974 --> 01:03:42,814
So I can imagine a whole range of outcomes

931
01:03:42,814 --> 01:03:46,314
on a whole range of different time horizons, to be honest.

932
01:03:46,454 --> 01:03:48,554
I think, yeah, I think one of them that you alluded to

933
01:03:48,554 --> 01:03:52,374
could well be we actually do keep central banking,

934
01:03:53,134 --> 01:03:57,454
but it's massively reined in in terms of

935
01:03:57,454 --> 01:04:00,834
there being a market-enforced expectation

936
01:04:00,834 --> 01:04:01,974
of being backed by Bitcoin.

937
01:04:01,974 --> 01:04:03,894
So there's significantly more,

938
01:04:03,894 --> 01:04:13,494
significantly greater limits on credit extension that are kind of abided by by the market participants

939
01:04:13,494 --> 01:04:18,654
because they they basically understand that there isn't really a lender of last resort anymore like

940
01:04:18,654 --> 01:04:23,314
they can actually go bankrupt and including the central bank can functionally go bankrupt in a way

941
01:04:23,314 --> 01:04:27,774
that isn't really true like that that could happen and i mean that would obviously be amazing like if

942
01:04:27,774 --> 01:04:33,514
to even get to that be a massive improvement in in human welfare but even say that like that's

943
01:04:33,514 --> 01:04:36,914
kind of tricky i don't want people quoting that out of context because that almost feels like

944
01:04:36,914 --> 01:04:42,914
defeatist in a for for a for a hardcore bitcoin or to want to say like that is by no stretch of

945
01:04:42,914 --> 01:04:47,994
the imagination hyper bitcoinization so you know should we accept that i mean probably not like no

946
01:04:47,994 --> 01:04:51,834
we should we should keep pushing if you know if we get to that point then it's certainly not over

947
01:04:51,834 --> 01:04:56,954
but nonetheless that would be that would be good and i i can see that as being somewhat plausible

948
01:04:56,954 --> 01:05:01,274
um i guess yeah i mean the other end of the spectrum is obviously just you know there's no

949
01:05:01,274 --> 01:05:05,414
central banks there's barely any there's no banks in the way that we know them now there's just

950
01:05:05,414 --> 01:05:10,534
completely new flavor of financial institution and we are hyper bitcoinized but yeah i mean i

951
01:05:10,534 --> 01:05:15,794
ultimately i just i don't know i think i i will rule out it fails like it won't go to zero there

952
01:05:15,794 --> 01:05:21,414
won't be you know the price won't go to zero the after it will go to zero it will exist forever uh

953
01:05:21,414 --> 01:05:27,074
i'm just very much on the fence about how long it'll take to have any particular level of success

954
01:05:27,074 --> 01:05:30,254
but what's your theory though you said that you you have one i don't mean to put you on the spot

955
01:05:30,254 --> 01:05:35,974
too much yeah no no no i and i i appreciate that so i mean mine is generally it also it completely

956
01:05:35,974 --> 01:05:39,674
depends on what sort of time horizons we're talking about right and so like i you know because

957
01:05:39,674 --> 01:05:44,794
obviously you know on a long enough time horizon you could be like okay well we all we know that

958
01:05:44,794 --> 01:05:49,914
necessarily every fiat currency goes to zero eventually thus every fiat currency will eventually

959
01:05:49,914 --> 01:05:55,034
go to zero yes more will spring up in their places but on a long enough time horizon if you take that

960
01:05:55,034 --> 01:05:58,214
to its logical conclusion probably you would eventually have the complete extinction of fiat

961
01:05:58,214 --> 01:06:04,334
currencies but i don't think that happens in our lifetime um yeah i don't know if that happened i

962
01:06:04,334 --> 01:06:09,774
don't know if that happens in my in my children's lifetime even um and this is not me nacing

963
01:06:09,774 --> 01:06:14,414
thinking you know saying like oh well bitcoin's not gonna like bitcoin doesn't need we don't need

964
01:06:14,414 --> 01:06:19,754
every fiat currency to be extinct for bitcoin to have achieved what it needs to achieve like

965
01:06:19,754 --> 01:06:25,694
bitcoin is actually already winning it's already succeeding it's already achieving what so many

966
01:06:25,694 --> 01:06:30,734
people who have opted in who have taken that credible exit it's already doing what we need it

967
01:06:30,734 --> 01:06:36,794
to do yeah now my other thought is like okay i think that and you brought this up exactly correctly

968
01:06:36,794 --> 01:06:41,594
i think even within our lifetimes what we will see i think we will see many fiat currencies fail

969
01:06:41,594 --> 01:06:47,614
i think they will start to fail uh at a greater rate i think they will also continue to spring

970
01:06:47,614 --> 01:06:52,614
up though right i think they will continue to you know what i mean like it's not like the number of

971
01:06:52,614 --> 01:06:57,194
fiat currencies that we have today is like that's the only ones that can ever exist and there will

972
01:06:57,194 --> 01:07:02,854
never be any more created like no they'll keep making feel like even you know and it's like even

973
01:07:02,854 --> 01:07:05,834
if the u.s dollar fails and by the way guys if the u.s dollar fails that means every other fiat

974
01:07:05,834 --> 01:07:09,954
currency has failed like maybe a couple times over and been replaced like just realistically

975
01:07:09,954 --> 01:07:13,114
speaking like you know you can say that the dollar is going to fail but like it's the it's

976
01:07:13,114 --> 01:07:15,814
the skinniest kid at fat camp right it's the prettiest horse of the glue factory it's the

977
01:07:15,814 --> 01:07:20,674
worst except for all the rest except maybe the swiss franc but you know like that's a that's a

978
01:07:20,674 --> 01:07:24,834
different story. They're the only first world country that we have, as a Swiss man once told

979
01:07:24,834 --> 01:07:28,934
me, which I thought was hilarious and maybe kind of true. But I think that we will see,

980
01:07:29,854 --> 01:07:34,174
because more and more people realize, like the credible exit already exists, Bitcoin already

981
01:07:34,174 --> 01:07:40,674
exists. It's a matter of how many people realize what that actually means for them. I think that

982
01:07:40,674 --> 01:07:45,974
Bitcoin will, as it becomes more and more ubiquitous, I think that it will create more of a

983
01:07:45,974 --> 01:07:52,994
check on unrelenting money printing because as you said the you know these banks will go bankrupt

984
01:07:52,994 --> 01:08:00,114
central banks will go bankrupt and you know they there will be much much it'll be so far less

985
01:08:00,114 --> 01:08:06,014
palatable to bail them out than than it has it's already not palatable right people already hate

986
01:08:06,014 --> 01:08:09,474
that like you're only getting a couple more of those before people are like you know what

987
01:08:09,474 --> 01:08:14,414
maybe we should theoretically i'm not speaking for myself i'm speaking uh for people in the future

988
01:08:14,414 --> 01:08:16,434
Maybe we should just burn this motherfucker down.

989
01:08:16,794 --> 01:08:17,234
You know what I mean?

990
01:08:17,294 --> 01:08:21,634
Like that's, and not as myself, of course, but somebody, you could see somebody potentially

991
01:08:21,634 --> 01:08:24,654
saying that at some point in the future, maybe many someone's.

992
01:08:25,154 --> 01:08:27,454
So I think they continue to exist for our lifetime.

993
01:08:27,574 --> 01:08:34,174
I think fiat currencies persist for our lifetime at least, but there starts to be much less

994
01:08:34,174 --> 01:08:41,454
tolerance for mismanagement and said mismanagement will lead to fiat currency failures via hyper

995
01:08:41,454 --> 01:08:47,794
inflation at an increasingly fast pace that's sort of and then on a long enough time horizon

996
01:08:47,794 --> 01:08:52,514
maybe that stopped maybe maybe they all go away but i don't know but speaking in terms of my

997
01:08:52,514 --> 01:08:57,994
lifetime maybe my kids lifetime i think we still see them but they are held to account a little bit

998
01:08:57,994 --> 01:09:02,634
more that that's generally my thesis on this um i would be very happy to be proven wrong

999
01:09:02,634 --> 01:09:07,534
enter a pure hyper bitcoinized world i'm just you know not sure what that time horizon actually

1000
01:09:07,534 --> 01:09:13,074
looks like you know what i mean yeah yeah same yeah so that's that that's my general thesis

1001
01:09:13,074 --> 01:09:17,934
um okay so i want to be conscious of uh of your time here as we move through

1002
01:09:17,934 --> 01:09:24,674
okay okay time and space i want to talk a little bit too about what you're seeing kind of okay let's

1003
01:09:24,674 --> 01:09:28,774
let's separate out from what we were just talking about uh not entirely of course because it is all

1004
01:09:28,774 --> 01:09:33,474
connected but what what you guys are doing with axiom um and sort of what you're seeing from from

1005
01:09:33,474 --> 01:09:37,174
that side of things are you good to talk about that a little bit without yeah yeah i mean

1006
01:09:37,174 --> 01:09:39,714
sensitive. It's more just

1007
01:09:39,714 --> 01:09:41,874
the stage where I think

1008
01:09:41,874 --> 01:09:44,014
it's going to be a little bit boring for your audience.

1009
01:09:44,194 --> 01:09:45,694
Let me ask it a different...

1010
01:09:45,694 --> 01:09:47,914
Yeah, maybe I can ask

1011
01:09:47,914 --> 01:09:49,574
a different question in terms of

1012
01:09:49,574 --> 01:09:51,814
what are

1013
01:09:51,814 --> 01:09:53,614
you looking at inside

1014
01:09:53,614 --> 01:09:55,934
the, let's say, outside of Bitcoin

1015
01:09:55,934 --> 01:09:57,814
just as the money. There is all the stuff

1016
01:09:57,814 --> 01:09:59,854
being built around Bitcoin, being built

1017
01:09:59,854 --> 01:10:01,814
on top of Bitcoin, being built to make

1018
01:10:01,814 --> 01:10:02,314
Bitcoin

1019
01:10:02,314 --> 01:10:05,814
more usable, to build products

1020
01:10:05,814 --> 01:10:09,934
and services around this nascent monetary technology what are you seeing what are you

1021
01:10:09,934 --> 01:10:16,654
looking at what are you keying in on in that in that general realm so i'd say the thing that we

1022
01:10:16,654 --> 01:10:23,914
are by far the most excited about is arc and i don't know how familiar you'll be or how familiar

1023
01:10:23,914 --> 01:10:28,334
the audience will be i also just be clear i'm not putting myself forward as an expert in this

1024
01:10:28,334 --> 01:10:34,694
and so i yeah i don't want to get into like a too much of a technical digression let's say

1025
01:10:34,694 --> 01:10:46,994
um but one neat way of capturing why we like it so much is that it feels like it affects basically

1026
01:10:46,994 --> 01:10:51,914
everything about the ecosystem positively like it it doesn't it doesn't necessarily

1027
01:10:51,914 --> 01:10:59,014
replace anything or like massively you know you don't swap in arc for something else and and then

1028
01:10:59,014 --> 01:11:02,774
all of a sudden everything's amazingly better but it's almost like the opposite in terms of the

1029
01:11:02,774 --> 01:11:09,574
the implication of like everything probably gets a little bit better because of this. I can give

1030
01:11:09,574 --> 01:11:15,214
some tangible examples in terms of like, I probably shouldn't name companies, but, you know,

1031
01:11:15,294 --> 01:11:19,434
opportunities that we're seeing where companies that we can invest in, but there's like the use

1032
01:11:19,434 --> 01:11:27,474
cases is a more interesting thing. So I think it makes lightning significantly better. And I think

1033
01:11:27,474 --> 01:11:33,394
we're quite rapidly moving to a point where people won't like a lot of the terminology that

1034
01:11:33,394 --> 01:11:37,574
people have got used to about making bitcoin payments is probably going to have to change

1035
01:11:37,574 --> 01:11:43,014
and to be clear what i mean by that not that like oh we're we're saying things wrong and we need to

1036
01:11:43,014 --> 01:11:47,494
learn a new jargon or whatever i think it'll be entirely natural i think it just will change

1037
01:11:47,494 --> 01:11:55,554
uh by virtue of the infrastructure itself maturing and and kind of one one perspective i guess would

1038
01:11:55,554 --> 01:12:00,734
be getting more complicated but also just being obfuscated away so the exact link that i have in

1039
01:12:00,734 --> 01:12:09,514
mind between arc and lightning is that i think a lot of payments will have many behind the scene

1040
01:12:09,514 --> 01:12:14,494
components that the users just won't need to care about and it may go beyond arc as well because

1041
01:12:14,494 --> 01:12:20,634
you can pretty seamlessly plug in uh like e-cash say on on top of arc and then the other side of

1042
01:12:20,634 --> 01:12:25,014
it might not even be arc it might be like spark say like a lot of lightning wallets are now using

1043
01:12:25,014 --> 01:12:31,974
spark is their back end and basically because on all of these you can do uh effectively htlcs is

1044
01:12:31,974 --> 01:12:36,354
kind of what they like that's like the linkage and that's the um the whole thesis i don't know

1045
01:12:36,354 --> 01:12:40,934
if you're familiar uh but roy scheinfeld i think it comes from a blog originally but um it's more

1046
01:12:40,934 --> 01:12:45,734
like the it's become kind of his own meme i think rightly so because it's it's a very powerful thesis

1047
01:12:45,734 --> 01:12:49,334
of lightning being the connective tissue i think that is the name of the blog lightning is the

1048
01:12:49,334 --> 01:12:57,234
connective tissue of the l2 space um but i think a lot of bitcoin payments like every day

1049
01:12:57,234 --> 01:13:01,294
and and importantly pure to pure payments as well you know we're not talking about like banks

1050
01:13:01,294 --> 01:13:07,194
clearing with each other uh will shortly become a lot more involved than people are used to talking

1051
01:13:07,194 --> 01:13:11,894
about them so it could be like you know any cashman to arc and then over lightning that then

1052
01:13:11,894 --> 01:13:17,194
pays uh somebody else using a lightning wallet but which is actually using spark or whatever like it

1053
01:13:17,194 --> 01:13:22,174
could become fairly complicated in a way that's like very interestingly mimicking the development

1054
01:13:22,174 --> 01:13:28,274
of fiat but with the obviously important difference that it's actually all self-custodial here or like

1055
01:13:28,274 --> 01:13:32,894
it's as you know i said you cash and i said spark it's like it's as self-custodial as the users

1056
01:13:32,894 --> 01:13:40,074
actually want it so as opposed to you know you make a visa payment and there's x many banks and

1057
01:13:40,074 --> 01:13:43,874
the network and the intermediaries and blah blah blah and like every single one of them is is a

1058
01:13:43,874 --> 01:13:48,514
custodian that takes fees and takes time and you're completely beholden to them and it's impossible to

1059
01:13:48,514 --> 01:13:53,674
send a payment in any other way to the person you're trying to pay you you have all the

1060
01:13:53,674 --> 01:13:59,514
intermediaries involved because they're you know they're they're they're they are adding value in

1061
01:13:59,514 --> 01:14:04,394
a limited sense of like they're creating the network for you but they're massively constrained

1062
01:14:04,394 --> 01:14:10,574
as to you know they have to operate within this this system of of it being impossible to self-custody

1063
01:14:10,574 --> 01:14:17,174
basically and you have to trust them um so in in our space though you you start to see this kind

1064
01:14:17,174 --> 01:14:23,514
of complexification and diversification of roles but strictly predicated on it being peer-to-peer

1065
01:14:23,514 --> 01:14:28,954
and it being opt-in i think that's really exciting and i think like ultimately this is kind of this

1066
01:14:28,954 --> 01:14:35,414
is maybe a more specific instance of just a general trend of like as it gets more normalized right

1067
01:14:35,414 --> 01:14:40,354
and as it moves away from the you know the initial hardcore believers who have all their

1068
01:14:40,354 --> 01:14:45,394
in group slang and whatever it to them it maybe feels a bit annoying that like the newbies don't

1069
01:14:45,394 --> 01:14:49,194
really understand what's happening but that's actually a good thing like if you if we if we

1070
01:14:49,194 --> 01:14:55,534
get away from oh i'm paying you on lightning and it's like a bolt 11 or like no normal people don't

1071
01:14:55,534 --> 01:14:59,494
give a shit how it actually works they just want it to work and we're getting quite close i think

1072
01:14:59,494 --> 01:15:06,714
to it just working which is pretty cool and so to come full circle i think art is key to tying all

1073
01:15:06,714 --> 01:15:10,594
of this together to improving lightning, but also to improving everything else that plugs into this.

1074
01:15:10,934 --> 01:15:14,714
So we're looking at it. I said I wouldn't name companies. I'm hesitant to name companies we

1075
01:15:14,714 --> 01:15:18,894
haven't invested in or haven't yet invested in. ARK Labs

1076
01:15:18,894 --> 01:15:22,914
we invested in a while ago, and they're driving a lot of this, and they're

1077
01:15:22,914 --> 01:15:25,434
just unbelievable. I think they're one of the most important

1078
01:15:25,434 --> 01:15:30,674
Bitcoin companies, if you want to think of it that way. What they're doing is the most

1079
01:15:30,674 --> 01:15:33,014
interesting, and what they're enabling is incredibly cool.

1080
01:15:33,014 --> 01:15:39,634
and basically for those that are not familiar and correct me if i'm wrong here but the the core idea

1081
01:15:39,634 --> 01:15:44,654
with arc is just that it's like whereas in lightning you have you have to open channels

1082
01:15:44,654 --> 01:15:48,394
you need various you know inbound liquidity that you need to manage and all these things

1083
01:15:48,394 --> 01:15:53,994
like arc you just kind of don't need that i'm very much simplifying right but yeah to go non-technical

1084
01:15:53,994 --> 01:16:00,614
there's no inbound liquidity there's no channels etc etc way of understanding the difference to

1085
01:16:00,614 --> 01:16:06,754
lightning is that you're kind of you can almost think of it as like and this is somewhat reflective

1086
01:16:06,754 --> 01:16:11,794
of how it was even created although obviously this is pretty over generalizing the you know

1087
01:16:11,794 --> 01:16:19,074
the process but in in in conceptual terms you start with lightning and you kind of yank it away

1088
01:16:19,074 --> 01:16:24,534
from being strictly peer to peer you set it up to be client server instead but what you're doing

1089
01:16:24,534 --> 01:16:28,714
is you're pulling away from the peers

1090
01:16:28,714 --> 01:16:29,714
or from the clients,

1091
01:16:30,414 --> 01:16:31,994
the channel management

1092
01:16:31,994 --> 01:16:35,114
and the always online-ness, right?

1093
01:16:35,934 --> 01:16:37,734
Basically, both of these requirements,

1094
01:16:38,074 --> 01:16:39,034
I don't want to go too much

1095
01:16:39,034 --> 01:16:41,834
into diversion of pros and cons of Lightning,

1096
01:16:41,974 --> 01:16:43,134
but I think it's more like,

1097
01:16:43,174 --> 01:16:44,674
this isn't an original thought.

1098
01:16:44,774 --> 01:16:46,114
This is widely understood at this point

1099
01:16:46,114 --> 01:16:47,634
that those two properties

1100
01:16:47,634 --> 01:16:50,934
are what make Lightning great for businesses,

1101
01:16:51,094 --> 01:16:52,774
but not so great for regular users

1102
01:16:52,774 --> 01:16:58,394
because nobody wants to run a server,

1103
01:16:58,994 --> 01:17:01,214
whereas businesses always run servers all the time.

1104
01:17:01,254 --> 01:17:01,674
It's not a problem.

1105
01:17:01,854 --> 01:17:05,294
And nobody wants to conceive of working capital management.

1106
01:17:05,414 --> 01:17:06,994
It's just not a thing that regular people do.

1107
01:17:07,254 --> 01:17:08,814
But again, it's the thing that businesses do all the time.

1108
01:17:08,874 --> 01:17:10,294
So both of these things are fine for businesses

1109
01:17:10,294 --> 01:17:11,814
and they're a nightmare for regular people.

1110
01:17:12,674 --> 01:17:14,834
And what ARK does is start with,

1111
01:17:15,034 --> 01:17:16,734
again, in very, very hand-wavy terms,

1112
01:17:16,734 --> 01:17:18,014
it starts with the lightning design

1113
01:17:18,014 --> 01:17:20,234
where everyone's a peer and everyone has to do that

1114
01:17:20,234 --> 01:17:22,174
and kind of yanks it apart a bit

1115
01:17:22,174 --> 01:17:29,394
so that you split out these roles of the server managing the liquidity and managing the online-ness

1116
01:17:29,394 --> 01:17:33,274
and the client just getting the vastly improved UX.

1117
01:17:33,854 --> 01:17:39,614
But the genius of it, crucially, is that this isn't just like Coinbase is my favorite L2 kind of meme.

1118
01:17:40,214 --> 01:17:43,614
It's engineered in such a way that it is actually a true L2.

1119
01:17:43,794 --> 01:17:48,294
So yes, you have the server, I think they want to call them operators now.

1120
01:17:48,294 --> 01:17:54,814
the architecture is such that you need that role but they're not a custodian you if you have an

1121
01:17:54,814 --> 01:18:00,934
arc balance it you can you self-custody this you can exit to real bitcoin without their permission

1122
01:18:00,934 --> 01:18:07,914
which is awesome yeah and i think that's such an important point around uh around all of this that

1123
01:18:07,914 --> 01:18:12,414
self-custodial nature of these things you were saying you know oh you know it's like the oh shoot

1124
01:18:12,414 --> 01:18:16,374
you know we accidentally just created fiat banking again like the meme basically you know but it's

1125
01:18:16,374 --> 01:18:23,994
But it's like, no, the difference being in the fiat system, you cannot custody money, self-custody money digitally.

1126
01:18:24,234 --> 01:18:25,114
You can't do it.

1127
01:18:25,214 --> 01:18:33,514
And even if you have physical money, which, yeah, you can keep money, you know, or you can keep, well, Federal Reserve notes in the U.S., you can keep those.

1128
01:18:33,914 --> 01:18:38,874
Like that's still, you know, that's still just a promise, right, at the end of the day.

1129
01:18:39,254 --> 01:18:44,294
So, you know, this idea that that is really this incredible thing about Bitcoin is that, you know, you can actually hold it.

1130
01:18:44,294 --> 01:18:50,294
tongue-in-cheek with this um i'll also shill my own you know content i guess for lack of

1131
01:18:50,294 --> 01:18:54,894
everything please if people have in the scene and they want to go look at the talk that i gave

1132
01:18:54,894 --> 01:18:59,994
at btc plus plus lightning in berlin i'm actually it's a bit tricky i'm not sure how to find this i

1133
01:18:59,994 --> 01:19:04,594
think i think it's on youtube i think btc plus plus have a youtube channel is it like i don't

1134
01:19:04,594 --> 01:19:09,394
have it it's not in my you know custody or whatever um but it's out there like it's gonna

1135
01:19:09,394 --> 01:19:17,374
be too difficult to find um i talk about basically how how ridiculous the the actual mechanics of

1136
01:19:17,374 --> 01:19:22,454
making a fiat payment are and so to your your point i mean i'm not meaning to like pick on the

1137
01:19:22,454 --> 01:19:26,974
terminology that you use but it is amusing folk at this that i think you said something like

1138
01:19:26,974 --> 01:19:35,534
you you can't uh self-custody digital fiat uh which is true but it it's true for an i think

1139
01:19:35,534 --> 01:19:37,474
an even more amusing reason than you meant,

1140
01:19:37,594 --> 01:19:39,914
which is that it doesn't even really mean anything.

1141
01:19:40,014 --> 01:19:42,674
It's not like there is such a thing as digital fiat

1142
01:19:42,674 --> 01:19:44,514
and it's just set up in such a way that,

1143
01:19:44,634 --> 01:19:46,234
oh, they can custody it, but you can't.

1144
01:19:46,234 --> 01:19:48,154
They don't let you touch it or whatever.

1145
01:19:48,694 --> 01:19:51,674
It doesn't even really exist.

1146
01:19:51,914 --> 01:19:56,674
It only exists as a bank liability.

1147
01:19:57,054 --> 01:19:58,194
And again, I'm wary of like,

1148
01:19:58,234 --> 01:19:59,294
it's a 30 minute talk.

1149
01:19:59,354 --> 01:20:00,574
I don't want to give the whole talk now,

1150
01:20:00,734 --> 01:20:03,454
but knowing where this is going and how stupid it is,

1151
01:20:03,454 --> 01:20:05,494
it's

1152
01:20:05,494 --> 01:20:07,654
if you're into this kind of thing if you want

1153
01:20:07,654 --> 01:20:09,494
some you're feeling

1154
01:20:09,494 --> 01:20:11,374
kind of masochistic I guess you'd go

1155
01:20:11,374 --> 01:20:13,574
watch this and learn just how

1156
01:20:13,574 --> 01:20:15,714
crazy it is and by implication

1157
01:20:15,714 --> 01:20:16,814
just how much of an improvement

1158
01:20:16,814 --> 01:20:19,254
arc slash lightning slash both

1159
01:20:19,254 --> 01:20:21,394
one other thing I just want to mention quickly by the way

1160
01:20:21,394 --> 01:20:23,494
sorry to be jumping around but this

1161
01:20:23,494 --> 01:20:25,294
came to me after I

1162
01:20:25,294 --> 01:20:26,754
after I stopped

1163
01:20:26,754 --> 01:20:29,374
my rant about arc and lightning

1164
01:20:29,374 --> 01:20:31,454
and then would you recall mentioning in the comparison to

1165
01:20:31,454 --> 01:20:33,174
to fiat

1166
01:20:33,454 --> 01:20:39,094
I think that it ties back as well to you asking what am I excited about. I'm surprised that people

1167
01:20:39,094 --> 01:20:44,874
aren't more excited by ARK, but I think I know why, or at least I have a theory as to why,

1168
01:20:44,954 --> 01:20:54,194
which is that the hype around Lightning was so intense and so spectacularly failed to deliver

1169
01:20:54,194 --> 01:20:58,494
that people are just jaded from that. And even that, I feel like I kind of have to qualify because

1170
01:20:58,494 --> 01:21:04,034
I mean, I think lightning is absolutely amazing. I get really irritated. And I say this in that

1171
01:21:04,034 --> 01:21:07,534
talk, by the way, that's why I remembered it. I get really irritated. People say, oh,

1172
01:21:07,594 --> 01:21:12,234
lightning sucks. It doesn't do this, doesn't do that. I think it's fair to criticize the extent

1173
01:21:12,234 --> 01:21:20,354
to which it was hyped up in, say, 2017 until like 21 or so. Like, I distinctly remember this. I

1174
01:21:20,354 --> 01:21:24,954
probably contributed to this myself, to be fair, that it was kind of presented as like, this is

1175
01:21:24,954 --> 01:21:29,214
the silver bullet for payments like this is how you scale bitcoin and this is why we won the block

1176
01:21:29,214 --> 01:21:35,414
size wars and it's over and we're just gonna win now i'm not sure if anyone said it in exactly those

1177
01:21:35,414 --> 01:21:40,854
terms but that was kind of the vibe um that obviously didn't happen and i think people are

1178
01:21:40,854 --> 01:21:44,894
really jaded and they they don't they feel like they don't want to fall for that again and so

1179
01:21:44,894 --> 01:21:50,394
they're very very skeptical which i guess is healthy but it's so it's just unfortunate because

1180
01:21:50,394 --> 01:21:51,994
I feel like it's kind of misplaced.

1181
01:21:52,114 --> 01:21:53,414
I'm also wary too,

1182
01:21:53,474 --> 01:21:55,974
because I don't want to come across

1183
01:21:55,974 --> 01:21:56,774
that I'm saying that,

1184
01:21:56,874 --> 01:21:58,494
oh, actually Ark is that,

1185
01:21:58,934 --> 01:21:59,914
but it's more like,

1186
01:22:00,614 --> 01:22:02,614
we should be more nuanced in all of this.

1187
01:22:02,774 --> 01:22:04,014
Like lightning is amazing

1188
01:22:04,014 --> 01:22:06,534
at these specific things.

1189
01:22:07,454 --> 01:22:08,594
It shouldn't have been hyped up

1190
01:22:08,594 --> 01:22:09,434
as much as it was,

1191
01:22:09,494 --> 01:22:10,674
but it should still be hyped up.

1192
01:22:11,434 --> 01:22:12,974
And then ditto with Ark.

1193
01:22:13,094 --> 01:22:14,594
Like it's amazing at these things.

1194
01:22:14,674 --> 01:22:16,294
It's also not perfect,

1195
01:22:16,954 --> 01:22:18,894
but it's great.

1196
01:22:18,894 --> 01:22:23,414
and it makes lightning even better and it makes bitcoin even better so you should be more excited

1197
01:22:23,414 --> 01:22:29,394
well and this is the beauty of layer twos also just a bit yeah but this is the beauty of layer

1198
01:22:29,394 --> 01:22:33,994
twos in general and interoperability between them right is that ability it's like yeah light

1199
01:22:33,994 --> 01:22:40,494
lightning for example like using lightning in a self-custodial way is not a great experience for

1200
01:22:40,494 --> 01:22:44,554
the vast vast overwhelming majority of people right it works well i think nor should it you

1201
01:22:44,554 --> 01:22:47,354
I don't even see that as being a problem, really.

1202
01:22:47,554 --> 01:22:55,834
I almost mean that's kind of equivalent to saying something like using Swift is a bad experience for people.

1203
01:22:55,954 --> 01:22:59,194
It's like, well, people don't even like it doesn't even make sense.

1204
01:22:59,194 --> 01:23:01,854
Like, why would why would it be a good experience?

1205
01:23:01,854 --> 01:23:08,514
And I kind of like I did that on purpose because I think where we're moving towards is and this is like a different perspective.

1206
01:23:08,514 --> 01:23:15,394
This is almost like forcing a fiat analogy to Roy's thesis, which has now become a little

1207
01:23:15,394 --> 01:23:19,954
more widespread, I think rightly so, that in the new paradigm that we're moving

1208
01:23:19,992 --> 01:23:24,532
towards lightning is kind of playing the role of swift i hesitate to push that too hard because

1209
01:23:24,532 --> 01:23:28,852
it's it won't be exactly the same and you don't want to take it too literally but

1210
01:23:28,852 --> 01:23:34,412
in terms of being like what how the value is right behind the scenes and you don't necessarily see it

1211
01:23:34,412 --> 01:23:39,792
but i mean back to your comment that uh that triggered me right this i think is kind of the

1212
01:23:39,792 --> 01:23:45,272
gist of like people even talking about the you know the user experience of lightning i think

1213
01:23:45,272 --> 01:23:47,932
Like, you know, maybe ARC's all for this,

1214
01:23:47,992 --> 01:23:49,312
but whatever it is that's all for this,

1215
01:23:49,412 --> 01:23:50,832
when this all improves,

1216
01:23:51,332 --> 01:23:53,052
you won't even think in those terms, right?

1217
01:23:53,792 --> 01:23:55,872
You'll have one, I guess,

1218
01:23:56,312 --> 01:23:59,552
when nobody knows how it works, right?

1219
01:23:59,592 --> 01:24:01,772
You just, you don't think of it as like,

1220
01:24:02,032 --> 01:24:04,492
oh, my channel management and lightning is like,

1221
01:24:04,552 --> 01:24:06,392
oh, I gotta go and fiddle with this and this and this.

1222
01:24:06,452 --> 01:24:08,072
It's like, no, I just send somebody money.

1223
01:24:08,212 --> 01:24:09,192
Like I send the money and it worked

1224
01:24:09,192 --> 01:24:09,872
and that's the end of it.

1225
01:24:10,612 --> 01:24:12,852
Yeah, no, I'm in total agreement.

1226
01:24:12,992 --> 01:24:14,372
Like, I think that's what you're sort of seeing

1227
01:24:14,372 --> 01:24:19,952
between like lightning arc spark like and then you've got e-cash on top of that you've got you

1228
01:24:19,952 --> 01:24:26,132
know like fediment as well as these other kind of layers and protocols on that can be used in

1229
01:24:26,132 --> 01:24:31,252
conjunction with or on top of these other protocols that are built on top of bitcoin and like that's

1230
01:24:31,252 --> 01:24:35,632
that's kind of the beauty of it but like you said it's like at the end of the day the goal isn't like

1231
01:24:35,632 --> 01:24:40,612
oh i'm using you know i'm using such and such layer two or layer three protocol to send i'm

1232
01:24:40,612 --> 01:24:41,852
I'm just sending you money.

1233
01:24:42,272 --> 01:24:43,012
And it just works.

1234
01:24:43,532 --> 01:24:46,272
And that's like, we've pretty much, again, the custodial,

1235
01:24:46,672 --> 01:24:50,312
as it stands today, the custodial lightning experience is excellent.

1236
01:24:50,712 --> 01:24:52,332
Like it's really, really excellent.

1237
01:24:52,512 --> 01:24:53,612
It is seamless.

1238
01:24:53,732 --> 01:24:55,292
Like you don't have to worry about, you know,

1239
01:24:55,352 --> 01:24:58,592
a $500 worth of Bitcoin payment like failing

1240
01:24:58,592 --> 01:25:01,392
because you don't have enough channel liquidity, right?

1241
01:25:01,452 --> 01:25:03,492
Like that, which is something like I had happened, you know,

1242
01:25:03,492 --> 01:25:07,172
like back in whenever it was like 2021 or 22, right?

1243
01:25:07,172 --> 01:25:09,152
Like it was more complex.

1244
01:25:09,152 --> 01:25:14,272
now they're just big fat channels, you know, between big fat lightning nodes and stuff just

1245
01:25:14,272 --> 01:25:15,272
works in a custodial way.

1246
01:25:15,272 --> 01:25:17,792
And if you want to use it non custodial, you can do that too.

1247
01:25:17,792 --> 01:25:30,936
But then there all these other again with Arc and Spark and everything It very heartening to see where we at right now on that medium of exchange side of things in terms of enabling that at a you know

1248
01:25:31,296 --> 01:25:34,556
so that people can stop saying, well, Bitcoin is so slow. It's like anytime somebody's,

1249
01:25:34,616 --> 01:25:38,696
and I still see people say that, I'm just like, dear God, like, do you know what year it is? Like,

1250
01:25:38,736 --> 01:25:41,756
if you just say that, you're just telling on yourself for having no idea what's happening.

1251
01:25:41,996 --> 01:25:46,456
Yeah. But, you know, plenty of those still out there. Alan, we're coming up on the end of the

1252
01:25:46,456 --> 01:25:51,496
time here i want to thank you for sharing yours with me excited to get the second edition of the

1253
01:25:51,496 --> 01:25:55,836
book what else do you want to show what else where else do you want to send people um i don't have a

1254
01:25:55,836 --> 01:26:00,456
huge amount of shell right now i mean number go down was the big thing we obviously we talked about

1255
01:26:00,456 --> 01:26:04,576
that at length people want to read it it's pinned on my i refuse to say x by the way i'm sorry it's

1256
01:26:04,576 --> 01:26:09,136
pinned on my twitter profile there you go actually jordan's going to be really fun i i don't my

1257
01:26:09,136 --> 01:26:12,596
phone's not here i can't show you but um probably wouldn't be that wise for the phone off the camera

1258
01:26:12,596 --> 01:26:20,096
either but i i haven't updated my twitter app on my phone in like four years at this point i'm very

1259
01:26:20,096 --> 01:26:24,736
deliberate about not updating it so like when you go into the update thing and you're like update

1260
01:26:24,736 --> 01:26:30,476
update update no not that one update update update and it's still twitter it's still the blue square

1261
01:26:30,476 --> 01:26:34,256
with the white bird that but that's literally the only reason i'm not updating it still works

1262
01:26:34,256 --> 01:26:39,776
like it still works fine that's actually mind-blowing that it's still like that they

1263
01:26:39,776 --> 01:26:44,416
haven't just deprecated that you know what i mean like i'm yeah boy we might have to cut this segment

1264
01:26:44,416 --> 01:26:48,756
out because elon's a listener to this show obviously and so you know i don't want him

1265
01:26:48,756 --> 01:26:54,456
getting any ideas well because every now and then i'm like i should really delete twitter on my phone

1266
01:26:54,456 --> 01:26:59,896
because it's like i i barely use it on my phone but the fact that it's there means obviously i

1267
01:26:59,896 --> 01:27:05,576
still can occasionally and i you know i kind of fall into that trap i i like to pretend i like to

1268
01:27:05,576 --> 01:27:11,956
kid myself that you know i have better mental hygiene and i can in fact just sit still and

1269
01:27:11,956 --> 01:27:16,456
wait for something and not doom scroll but occasionally i have to do it so i don't delete

1270
01:27:16,456 --> 01:27:21,676
it i don't delete it from my phone but but but one of the main reasons i don't delete it from my

1271
01:27:21,676 --> 01:27:37,540
phone is that this will end right like if i delete it and then i install it again i never getting the bird back so if it be the end of an era deprecated that would be very healthy for me because i could finally delete the app and then i be at peace that it that is incredible i cannot believe

1272
01:27:37,540 --> 01:27:41,380
you've kept that for that long that is truly that that is impressive you know you just need to just

1273
01:27:41,380 --> 01:27:47,020
thank you just get my phone save that phone save that phone for all time i want to know if like i

1274
01:27:47,020 --> 01:27:52,140
wonder if there's literally anyone else in the world there must be somebody somewhere but maybe

1275
01:27:52,140 --> 01:27:52,900
That's impressive.

1276
01:27:53,120 --> 01:27:54,220
I'll last them.

1277
01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:57,260
Yeah, that is, wow.

1278
01:27:57,300 --> 01:27:58,880
I was not expecting that fun fact at the end.

1279
01:27:58,980 --> 01:28:00,440
My mind is kind of blown with that.

1280
01:28:01,020 --> 01:28:01,380
I love it.

1281
01:28:01,440 --> 01:28:03,540
Well, Alan, thank you so much, man.

1282
01:28:03,840 --> 01:28:05,540
People should go check out Bitcoin is Venous.

1283
01:28:05,620 --> 01:28:06,580
Check out Number Go Down.

1284
01:28:07,220 --> 01:28:11,280
Go check out your other musings online on Twitter

1285
01:28:11,280 --> 01:28:14,940
that may or may not get you thrown in the slammer someday.

1286
01:28:15,020 --> 01:28:17,020
I don't know if you guys say slammer over there, what you say.

1287
01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:18,020
I don't know.

1288
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:20,240
I don't say slammer.

1289
01:28:20,240 --> 01:28:21,960
I mean, I guess just jail.

1290
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:25,040
I'm not sure if there's good Scottish slang for jail.

1291
01:28:26,020 --> 01:28:27,380
I've never been, so I don't know.

1292
01:28:27,460 --> 01:28:27,820
I'll tell you.

1293
01:28:27,960 --> 01:28:32,980
When I finally hit the tripwire, I mean, I try to be very, like,

1294
01:28:33,440 --> 01:28:38,680
I've definitely said things that could be interpreted as hate crimes.

1295
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:40,240
I mean, they're hateful, for sure.

1296
01:28:40,800 --> 01:28:45,020
I'm just, I try to, my wife, she's speaking to me by this all the time as well,

1297
01:28:45,400 --> 01:28:49,880
that I try at least to be very careful to, like,

1298
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:57,100
if i'm saying something that is verging on hate crime i say it in such a convoluted or pretentious

1299
01:28:57,100 --> 01:29:04,340
or like intellectual way that nobody's stupid enough to hate it would get it so like that's

1300
01:29:04,340 --> 01:29:09,880
how i get away with it but i'm i'm pretty close to the sun so could do the next one from prison

1301
01:29:09,880 --> 01:29:17,580
that'd be fun have you ever had anyone dial in from prison i i have not i have not um uh perhaps

1302
01:29:17,580 --> 01:29:18,280
perhaps someday.

1303
01:29:18,380 --> 01:29:18,540
But yeah,

1304
01:29:18,540 --> 01:29:19,460
this one simple trick

1305
01:29:19,460 --> 01:29:20,460
for not getting thrown in jail

1306
01:29:20,460 --> 01:29:20,960
for hate speech

1307
01:29:20,960 --> 01:29:22,340
is just make it super,

1308
01:29:22,480 --> 01:29:23,580
super insufferable

1309
01:29:23,580 --> 01:29:24,320
to get through

1310
01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:25,380
from a logical standpoint.

1311
01:29:25,540 --> 01:29:26,620
You're really convoluted.

1312
01:29:26,860 --> 01:29:38,984
Or actually another good well I say a tip If I end up in jail it obviously not a good tip But do it If it is like verging on proper hate crime territory do it entirely ironically And I have it This

1313
01:29:38,984 --> 01:29:43,884
isn't legal advice, but I have a kind of an amateur legal theory that you should get away

1314
01:29:43,884 --> 01:29:50,004
with it in that case because they can't really get you because they'd have to admit like if you

1315
01:29:50,004 --> 01:29:54,904
basically what I mean is that, you know, if you there's some, you know, hate crime point and you

1316
01:29:54,904 --> 01:30:00,844
say it completely over the top in the other way but obviously sarcastically right yeah in order

1317
01:30:00,844 --> 01:30:07,644
for them to treat it as a crime they have to argue that that's obviously wrong and they're like ah

1318
01:30:07,644 --> 01:30:17,244
yeah that's that's a nice way to do it we'll see if i stay out of jail i i i truly hope you do um

1319
01:30:17,244 --> 01:30:22,364
alan thanks so much for joining thanks to folks who tuned in on noster as well appreciate you all

1320
01:30:22,364 --> 01:30:26,404
And yeah, Alan, stay free over there in the UK.

1321
01:30:26,624 --> 01:30:27,484
I'll do my best.

1322
01:30:28,304 --> 01:30:28,964
All right, man.

1323
01:30:52,364 --> 01:30:57,304
Primal.net slash Walker and this podcast at Primal.net slash Titcoin.

1324
01:30:57,744 --> 01:31:01,164
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America

1325
01:31:01,164 --> 01:31:05,724
and find this podcast on X and Instagram at Titcoin Podcast.

1326
01:31:06,464 --> 01:31:08,704
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links,

1327
01:31:08,804 --> 01:31:13,504
head to substack.com slash at Walker America to get episodes emailed to you

1328
01:31:13,504 --> 01:31:17,304
and head to Bitcoin Podcast.net for everything else.

1329
01:31:17,764 --> 01:31:21,424
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1330
01:31:21,424 --> 01:31:26,764
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1331
01:31:27,664 --> 01:31:30,084
Until next time, stay free.