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Every two days in France, a robbery, an abduction happened.

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They stuffed his wife into the trunk of a car for 48 hours and they took one of his fingers.

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Don't be an idiot such as ourselves.

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Don't be public about Bitcoin.

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That is something that might bite us in the ass in the future.

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If cash would be a newly invented thing, they would not invent or allow it to happen.

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We need to improve Bitcoin and make it as private and as scaled as possible.

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before you know the government fully captures uh bitcoin in in one way or another satoshi left

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that left he left us all in our own terms and now we have this great thing that that he came up with

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and we should not that up curious too because you mentioned scaling bitcoin and privacy around

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bitcoin which sounds like changing bitcoin and i'd just like to ask when did you become compromised

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if you truly believe bitcoin needs to scale to eight billion people and self-custody should be

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done by your grandma, then we need to improve Bitcoin just a little bit.

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Let's dig in, you know, let's end some career.

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Are we in the midst of the fourth turning or do you stand by the bugle thesis that we're actually

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already in the first turning? Where are you at with this?

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So this would be my first turning that I presently observe to quote Steve Lepka, be gentle,

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this is my first turning. I don't know what to expect. I'm here for a good time, not a long time.

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I always quote my grandmother, like she in French said,

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said, if you like don't worry about things that you cannot change essentially, like the

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essence of that, and I try to, you know, take care of me and my family. And then you know,

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what happens happens.

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Yeah, it's a, it's a good mentality to have. Turns out it's like, when push comes to shove,

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realize what's really important i've just had a bit of a health emergency recently you just kind

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of realize like oh my god wow none almost none of the stuff i was worried about or was pissed off

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about matters at all and so i've just cut so much shit out yes am i posting fewer memes you know and

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fewer trolls sure uh is that a loss for the world perhaps but not not for me you know so it's uh

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It's all about that balance.

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But, dude, I'm stoked to have you on here.

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People may know you as the moderately tall European guy who sells industrial-grade washers with a 50X markup for Bitcoin self-custody, CEDOR.

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Yeah, I jest, I jest.

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But you do a lot more than that.

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You've got BitSurance now.

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you are quite a

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quite a memetic savant I would say

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which again is always pleasantly

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surprising to see as a European

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just that like you know

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Are we known to be a funny

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people as Germans? Is that something

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like a stereotype I'm unfamiliar with?

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I actually didn't want to assume

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you're German

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I thought maybe Scandinavian

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just given the height

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I wasn't sure if German

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emotional repression had led to more

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stunted growth patterns, but clearly not. You've managed to break free of that. So that's fantastic.

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I know. I jest. But you do post some dank memes, and they're very much appreciated.

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And we've got a bunch of stuff I want to cover with you today here. But I mean,

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maybe, I actually don't know your origin story with like Cedar and Bitcoin. How did you end up,

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when was the point where you're like, here's the thing, guys, we're just going to throw a bunch of

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washers on a pipe, and it's going to be a really efficient cold storage solution. By the way,

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our marketing strategy is just me making absurd memes and it's going to work.

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Because it has worked pretty darn well, I would say.

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I absolutely agree.

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And that is the perfect encapsulation of how that happened.

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So as this tradition, as a German person, I studied mechanical engineering

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and I worked in aerospace.

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And as a material scientist, I did some process simulation,

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but I'm not a proper coder.

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And luckily, I didn't go into coding because that is all useless now.

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but I thought about how can I contribute to Bitcoin

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because I've been in this space for quite some time.

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I really enjoyed it and I saw what is at stake after like,

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of course, I entered the space by a number go up

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and I was amazed by like, wow, you can get rich.

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And then I realized, oh, there's more to this.

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It's freedom technology.

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And probably I should, at least as a side project,

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help contribute, make this better.

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And like the only thing as a material scientist

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that I could do is come up with the best, you know, backup for your private keys.

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And then I looked at all these 74 different competitors and went to the hardware store

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and went to my CNC milling shop and, yeah, created C-Door.

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And, yeah, having no budget at all allocated for this, I just, you know, created a personal

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brand or like a heavily doubled down on my meme skills that I've honed over, like, I

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I don't know, over a decade on Reddit.

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On Reddit, it was important to be original.

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You were not allowed to repost or steal other people's content.

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You would have been shamed.

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Something that is like, you know, on Twitter, like everybody does.

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But on Reddit, you have to like, oh, can't steal content.

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So I really pride myself in only making original memes.

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And they are an acquired taste, I would say so.

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But enough people seem to like them.

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And yeah, it helped CEDOR not only grow from a site passion project, but into an actual Bitcoin job.

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So it pays my salary.

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It pays all my travel expenses.

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If I go to a conference and I enjoy time with friends on the company Dime, and I can pay people a salary with CEDOR, which is amazing if you think about it.

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At the same time, I also invested in a small startup called BitSurance, where we, you know, again, deal with the topic of loss and the physical threats to Bitcoin or rather to Bitcoin holders.

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and yeah that's an insurance company that protects not your bitcoin but yourself in the event somebody

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robs you threatens you or your family and then asks for bitcoin in the yeah event that that you

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are robbed you can yeah give the attacker the bitcoin and you would be covered so far only only

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available in europe but my good friends over at anchor watch they do something very similar in

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America and it is an entirely underserved market.

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And yeah, so having observed this gap in coverage and being a mechanical engineer, as I always

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say, jack of all trades, master of none, I have like a good top view of things and I

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can, you know, contribute a little bit to all of these things.

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And yeah, but I think Bitcoin memes are my icky guy.

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I continue to do them.

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I want to get into the meme side of things a little bit too.

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But first, I do want to say, I mean, it's good that you guys are providing this product in Europe because, I mean, in France alone, I don't know.

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I mean, I kind of know what's going on over there.

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I know there was somebody that somebody inside the government was like selling actually personal data and like basically working with the, I don't know if you call them gangs or whatever, le gang or something like that.

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With criminals.

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Yeah.

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Can you break that down?

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What was happening over there?

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So, yeah, in general, we've seen a very steep increase in $5 venture tax globally.

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But like the number one country that they occur right now is France.

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And that has to do with the fact that the IRS equivalent in France, an employee there leaked not just crypto or Bitcoin holders' addresses, but wealthy people's addresses for as low as €800 a pop.

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and then it's not like regular like criminals but like professional criminals they are like

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masterminds in the behind scenes and then they they hire like hoodlums off telegram to come visit you

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and they then know okay this person is showing me a decoy wallet but given they uh you know

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obediently paid their taxes i know they must have more so you know take a finger and uh yeah there

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has been increasing um number of these events so much so that like just this year alone every two

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days in france a robbery an abduction happened like james and love keeps tracking them and he

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only has public sources and he recently had to redact some of them because like or not he had

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to he had to correct them because he said oh i only reported on 37 but so far it has been almost 50

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the official police report came out

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because if you are in such

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a robbery or

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abduction event, you're not necessarily

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talking to the media to have

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additional press coverage

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and afterwards the police crime

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statistics, they associate

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the encryptor with that specific

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crime.

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I always say that

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the best insurance for that is to

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tell nobody about your Bitcoin

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or that you have Bitcoin.

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don't go flaunting wealth

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the second best thing

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is to have some kind of

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$5 wrench insurance that would give you

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a bargaining chip in the event somebody

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comes and robs you, there's kidnap and ransom

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insurance, there is

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bit insurance where we can

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you can say here's 100,000 euros

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500,000 euros worth of bitcoin

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be gone, go with god

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and in the end

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you save your skin

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and hopefully you get the bitcoin replaced

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or your fiat to buy Bitcoin again.

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But these things, you know, they're on the rise

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and it just makes sense because it is this perfect asset

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that can be transferred under coercion

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and there is no undo button.

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There was this very famous case one and a half years ago

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with the co-founder of Ledger.

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He was abducted in Vierzon and he's no longer with the company,

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but he's like a hundred millionaire

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and he took some innocent pictures of his new house.

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And that was enough for the criminal gangs to find him.

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And they abducted him.

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They asked for 20 million euros in Bitcoin.

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They stuffed his wife into the trunk of a car for 48 hours.

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And they took one of his fingers.

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And that is a guy who had a special team taking care of his security.

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He had all these kinds of training in that kind of situation.

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And there was a very smart negotiator apparently who managed to convince the criminals instead of taking Bitcoin to take Tether, which was then instantly frozen, which is kind of like you're getting that far and then you take Tether.

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come on uh and yeah i mean uh and like he was he was luckily uh liberated uh on a pure coincidence

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like there was a a police officer who who noticed a um report uh coming in of a invalid or stoner

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license plate uh seen uh near nearby a hotel or something and that's why they then found and

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rescued him and later found found his wife in the trunk of a car but like that scenario that is that

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is insane but bitcoin is an asset that you know did 100x from 2017 and people go around flaunting

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their wealth and don't think they can be a target and you know people need to step up their offsec

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now it's it's very true and it's sadly in europe you guys don't have uh don't have guns uh which

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which makes things uh that is a misconception we have we have all of the guns and i would even say

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like except for weapons of war which would probably also be quite difficult to get maybe outside of

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Tennessee but like we we can have guns that's it's no problem like we don't have these open carry

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licenses unless you're like a licensed investigator or something but home defense like with guns is

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possible but yeah the best defense is a good security strategy and like to not let it get that

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far. But yeah, I mean, there have been cases in America as well. Like in New York, they had a guy

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abducted for several days and they tortured him and very, very gruesome cases because it's just

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information that can be beat out of you. And then there's this report by Guard.io, a company by

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Elena of Satoshi Labs and Mark's

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formerly Wasabi, they

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looked at all the

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reported cases and what I've heard

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like a lot of feedback that I've gotten

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due to all these $5 wrench attacks

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is it actually smart to have your Bitcoin

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in self-custody should I not have

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it on an exchange

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and like that report flat out

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showed us it doesn't make

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a difference whether it's on an exchange or

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self-custody, either you log into your

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Coinbase account or you have to unlock

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your hardware signer. There are

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ways with like, time lock, multi stick, etc, to to to protect

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you, or rather protect your Bitcoin, but not to protect you,

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like your health, I would say. And yeah, it's, it's, again, the

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perfect assets and that comes with a lot of downsides to

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it's an interesting point on the, let's say the multi sig

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front, because like, you know, like, without getting into

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details, like, there's no way that I can even act like I can't

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do anything with my Bitcoin, you know, if I'm at my house, and I can't even do it in the country,

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like there are, you know, are multiple geographic redundancies. And like, the difficulty there is

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that some people may be too, your attacker may be too stupid to understand that, like, look,

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like, I'm telling you, I can't access my, like, it's literally impossible for me to do anything,

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they'll be like, okay, we'll take another finger, then we'll see. And we'll see if you can access

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those bitty coins and you're like no i'm i'm telling you don't understand it's it's it's

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multi-sig like come on yeah manuscript manuscript i have this very mimetic slide in my presentation

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of this guy next to a whiteboard frantically explaining like oh it's geographically distributed

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i cannot access right now like the hoodlum that is hired he does not care like you will have to

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give up something uh if it is a kidney or something else so in that event it is probably

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smart to have a decoy wallet or like an old ledger that you can give out with some sum that

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seems plausible at least. So make it worth their time. And then yeah, don't I'm not turning my own

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horn. But insurance, you know, can can be a part of that. But I don't want to lose the last Nostar

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live here. We should probably stop talking about insurance. No, no, I mean, I think I think the

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operational security side is like a really, really important thing for people to pay attention to,

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because it's also a function of like, okay, you may not think that you have a lot of wealth right

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now. But fast forward, you know, if Bitcoin does what we all believe it is going to do,

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and what it has done historically, like, yeah, you know, I like if you're like me, and you know,

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you only got into Bitcoin a few years ago, and you're like, okay, yeah, it's not like I'm a big

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whale, you know, like, why would anybody target me? Well, in the future, anybody who's buying right

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now in 20, you know, if you go to 2035, if you were buying in 2025, people are going to be like,

225
00:15:56,300 --> 00:16:02,520
or 2026 people are gonna be like oh my god they must have you know a bajillion trillion dollars

226
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:07,980
in bitcoin like it's it's all just like a game of time right and so i think being better prepared

227
00:16:07,980 --> 00:16:12,680
in the present just is the is a prudent choice for people like you should be paying attention

228
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,400
to these things you should be careful it's going to be just like yeah careful about what you post

229
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:21,400
more broadly because you especially with with ai it's so much easier to geolocate these days too

230
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,080
You can do it trivially easy.

231
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,940
And so people are like, you should be conscious of that, right?

232
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267
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Yeah, I mean, like, everything becomes much more accessible through AI, like deception, social engineering, like voice models, video fakes, all these things.

268
00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:07,480
be vigilant and don't be an idiot such as ourselves.

269
00:20:07,860 --> 00:20:09,520
Don't be public about Bitcoin.

270
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:12,500
That is something that might bite us in the ass in the future

271
00:20:12,500 --> 00:20:18,120
because even 17 years in, everybody that gets into Bitcoin now

272
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,580
is, in my opinion, very, very early to this.

273
00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:23,560
And yeah, no price prediction.

274
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:28,240
But nominally, I would bet my ass that we will see an increase

275
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,940
at an all-time high in your time and all these things.

276
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:39,640
like correlate very closely like these these five-dollar attacks correlate really closely with the price and yeah there's

277
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:58,492
don don trust um yeah verify i would say and don don count on other people helping you in that case Yeah Yeah Speaking of things that AI enables AI has enabled you to post previously unimaginable

278
00:20:58,492 --> 00:21:04,492
levels of memetic slop, but it's unfair to call it slop because you have quite a gift

279
00:21:04,492 --> 00:21:06,572
for memetics, I think.

280
00:21:07,112 --> 00:21:11,672
And I'm curious too, do you think the vibes have been weird for a while?

281
00:21:12,232 --> 00:21:16,292
But from my limited time in Bitcoin, I was around for the 2022 bear.

282
00:21:16,492 --> 00:21:19,052
And that was like the memes were the best during that time.

283
00:21:19,112 --> 00:21:24,012
The memes were bad because all the, quote, tourists or whatever, the lettuce hands got out.

284
00:21:24,092 --> 00:21:28,772
And it was just a lot of people who became really hardcore Bitcoiners or already were

285
00:21:28,772 --> 00:21:35,632
but were forged in the fires of the bear market and then decided to just start using memes as their outlet

286
00:21:35,632 --> 00:21:39,472
for frustration, for hope, for whatever it might be,

287
00:21:39,912 --> 00:21:42,112
for dunking on Greenpeace.

288
00:21:42,892 --> 00:21:46,212
Like Carl and I, that was when we really started going hard

289
00:21:46,212 --> 00:21:49,412
into making our videos was in the depths of that bear market.

290
00:21:49,852 --> 00:21:54,352
And I'm curious if you think right now the memes feel bear market-ish

291
00:21:54,352 --> 00:21:55,992
or bull market-ish.

292
00:21:56,712 --> 00:21:57,472
Does that make sense?

293
00:21:57,472 --> 00:22:00,692
I mean, they feel very institutional-ish.

294
00:22:00,992 --> 00:22:05,232
Like currently it's captured by a ton of institutions.

295
00:22:05,632 --> 00:22:11,672
And every other week there is a new synthetic derivative that promises yield.

296
00:22:12,572 --> 00:22:15,652
And it is, I agree, it is different.

297
00:22:15,852 --> 00:22:17,272
I remember the Reddit days.

298
00:22:17,432 --> 00:22:19,512
I remember early Bitcoin Twitter days.

299
00:22:20,192 --> 00:22:27,652
And I tried to keep this kind of spirit alive by memeing as much as my time permits.

300
00:22:29,552 --> 00:22:30,952
And luckily I'm not alone.

301
00:22:31,312 --> 00:22:34,172
But it feels, I agree, it feels different this time.

302
00:22:34,172 --> 00:22:36,312
I guess everything is different this time.

303
00:22:39,272 --> 00:22:41,792
What's the best meme, not one that you posted,

304
00:22:41,992 --> 00:22:44,672
what's the best meme that you've seen recently?

305
00:22:45,712 --> 00:22:48,512
So I promise to not say this publicly,

306
00:22:48,792 --> 00:22:54,212
but there is a person that I think is the better memer than I am.

307
00:22:54,492 --> 00:22:57,492
And it's my guilty pleasure to see these memes.

308
00:22:58,192 --> 00:23:01,952
He works at BDC Inc., Dan Webb, Heartland Bitcoin.

309
00:23:01,952 --> 00:23:13,412
He does some other things under pseudonym 2, but there are so many of these memes that are hyper-targeted into my center of humor.

310
00:23:15,172 --> 00:23:17,772
Difficult to pick a favorite. It's like Sophie's Choice.

311
00:23:18,252 --> 00:23:21,692
If you ask what is my favorite meme that I made, it's always my last one.

312
00:23:22,912 --> 00:23:25,512
You always need to be better. You can always improve.

313
00:23:25,512 --> 00:23:35,692
but usually there is no correlation between how well a meme performs and how much of a great

314
00:23:35,692 --> 00:23:40,192
meme I think it is like it's absolutely or how much effort I put into it like there is no

315
00:23:40,192 --> 00:23:45,532
proof of work that is associated with like performance like I've done I don't know hour

316
00:23:45,532 --> 00:23:51,612
long CapCut edits on my phone and that they hardly made like 12 likes and they pooped out like a

317
00:23:51,612 --> 00:23:55,772
meme quickly and usually it's a Michael Saylor meme and that's like a thousand likes and then

318
00:23:55,772 --> 00:24:01,532
all right okay give the people what they want it is funny I've noticed and I think anybody who's

319
00:24:01,532 --> 00:24:07,752
done any sort of content creation has noticed that too that it's like and maybe it's the fact

320
00:24:07,752 --> 00:24:13,592
that when you pour so much time into something perhaps it ends up getting too in the weeds or

321
00:24:13,592 --> 00:24:18,752
it's you know it's it becomes too complex I don't know but like this was always a frustration for

322
00:24:18,752 --> 00:24:23,832
carl and i when we were making making our crypto couple videos was like you know it'd be like

323
00:24:23,832 --> 00:24:29,172
multiple days of you know of script writing of filming you know then she's like you know she's

324
00:24:29,172 --> 00:24:32,912
editing she's getting you know within a centimeter i'm saying this for the you know for your european

325
00:24:32,912 --> 00:24:38,472
mind uh centimeters not inches a centimeter of the computer screen and you know for multiple days

326
00:24:38,472 --> 00:24:44,532
and and so much thought and and care goes into it and you post it like it does pretty well but then

327
00:24:44,532 --> 00:24:48,932
you know, if she was to just like post a picture of like her foot hold, you know, holding a Bitcoin,

328
00:24:49,272 --> 00:24:53,092
it would, you know, that's like 5000 like, you know, but maybe that would be for other reasons.

329
00:24:53,372 --> 00:24:54,992
I'm not sure. She hasn't done that.

330
00:24:54,992 --> 00:24:56,332
Maybe she should start.

331
00:24:58,912 --> 00:25:05,752
I know. I know. It's it is. It is interesting that you mentioned kind of the institutionalization

332
00:25:05,752 --> 00:25:10,432
of Bitcoin. Do you think that that is what's happening? Or do you think it's like,

333
00:25:10,432 --> 00:25:13,012
who's trapped in the room with whom?

334
00:25:13,432 --> 00:25:13,872
You know what I mean?

335
00:25:13,952 --> 00:25:15,792
Is Bitcoin trapped in the room with the institutions

336
00:25:15,792 --> 00:25:18,152
or are the institutions trapped in the room with Bitcoin?

337
00:25:19,152 --> 00:25:24,072
I mean, I would say every bear market in the past

338
00:25:24,072 --> 00:25:28,452
has seen some kind of, you know, sacrificial lamb,

339
00:25:28,732 --> 00:25:30,612
something that, you know, needs to blow up.

340
00:25:31,132 --> 00:25:34,672
Something needs to unwind, something needs to, you know, crater.

341
00:25:34,672 --> 00:25:37,492
And like, it has to get worse before it gets better.

342
00:25:37,632 --> 00:25:39,292
Like we have to go deeper into the crevice

343
00:25:39,292 --> 00:25:42,072
and then we will see the light eventually.

344
00:25:42,532 --> 00:25:45,712
And at that point, we will see who is wearing pants

345
00:25:45,712 --> 00:25:47,572
and who is not if the tide goes out.

346
00:25:48,132 --> 00:25:50,452
So I'm holding judgment on that.

347
00:25:51,792 --> 00:25:56,552
But yeah, I mean, some of those AI memes Michael Saylor posts,

348
00:25:56,732 --> 00:25:58,032
I die inside.

349
00:25:59,032 --> 00:26:06,292
When I see the earnings calls and people are AI dancing

350
00:26:06,292 --> 00:26:07,972
and like, oh my God, send it to zero.

351
00:26:09,292 --> 00:26:10,172
I try to.

352
00:26:12,012 --> 00:26:20,252
I'll take the other side on that, though, because I did hear him talk about once he was like, they strategy basically got rid of like a ton of their market.

353
00:26:20,332 --> 00:26:25,072
This was like previously, I think with STRC, they've probably poured a lot of marketing money into that, obviously.

354
00:26:25,732 --> 00:26:32,532
But prior to that, they basically like got rid of most of their marketing budget at strategy for a long period of time.

355
00:26:32,572 --> 00:26:36,112
And there's that I'm forgetting what there was a particular account.

356
00:26:36,212 --> 00:26:38,692
Sailor was reposting a lot or like tweeting the guy.

357
00:26:38,692 --> 00:26:39,552
I'm forgetting.

358
00:26:39,972 --> 00:26:40,392
My Dojo?

359
00:26:40,732 --> 00:26:40,952
Yeah.

360
00:26:41,452 --> 00:26:42,032
Yeah, yeah.

361
00:26:42,112 --> 00:26:42,612
Thank you.

362
00:26:42,692 --> 00:26:43,012
Thank you.

363
00:26:43,652 --> 00:26:51,352
And I'm pretty sure they just like brought that guy on, like paid him a fat salary and like, you know, cut their marketing budget by like 95%.

364
00:26:51,352 --> 00:26:55,092
They're like, okay, you just make these sailor AI, you know, pictures.

365
00:26:55,772 --> 00:26:56,692
Michael, repost them.

366
00:26:56,832 --> 00:26:59,712
They get more visibility than any of our other marketing stuff.

367
00:26:59,792 --> 00:27:01,032
So, hey, let's do that.

368
00:27:01,392 --> 00:27:02,912
But it is interesting.

369
00:27:02,912 --> 00:27:06,512
I guess it speaks to the changing dynamics around marketing,

370
00:27:06,632 --> 00:27:08,912
around let's just say around propaganda more broadly,

371
00:27:08,992 --> 00:27:11,012
because there's good propaganda and bad propaganda, right?

372
00:27:11,052 --> 00:27:12,332
Like not all propaganda is bad.

373
00:27:13,212 --> 00:27:15,752
All that we do with memetics is propaganda, right?

374
00:27:15,892 --> 00:27:17,372
And it's about propaganda and that propaganda.

375
00:27:17,652 --> 00:27:20,092
It's, you know, confirming our biases, yeah.

376
00:27:20,952 --> 00:27:22,012
Exactly, exactly.

377
00:27:23,372 --> 00:27:26,912
But even like, I don't know if you've seen this as like a US politician thing,

378
00:27:26,932 --> 00:27:30,412
but he's blown up a lot on X, so maybe it's come across your radar,

379
00:27:30,412 --> 00:27:36,472
but the spencer pratt in la this guy who he was like previously a reality tv guy and he's just

380
00:27:36,472 --> 00:27:42,552
like his you know ai video like campaign videos have just been just fantastic you know like really

381
00:27:42,552 --> 00:27:47,232
fantastic stuff but we're entering this sort of new world where it's like you don't have to spend

382
00:27:47,232 --> 00:27:53,152
10 million dollars on political ads to have the same impact like you can have the same impact with

383
00:27:53,152 --> 00:27:57,792
a guy buying you know a couple hundred bucks worth of you know of of image generation video

384
00:27:57,792 --> 00:28:03,032
generation tokens versus a budget of a couple million and a massive team and this whole market

385
00:28:03,032 --> 00:28:09,572
and and like the ai slop may reach more people and be more effective and i feel like that's like

386
00:28:09,572 --> 00:28:15,952
like the old world is not ready for that yet like boomers boomers will see like jesus christ riding

387
00:28:15,952 --> 00:28:21,592
a unicorn on facebook and be like i can't who was able to get this image this is incredible like

388
00:28:21,592 --> 00:28:22,812
where was this photo taken?

389
00:28:23,232 --> 00:28:25,192
You know, no natural defenses.

390
00:28:25,872 --> 00:28:28,372
Boomers getting one-shotted on Facebook

391
00:28:28,372 --> 00:28:32,012
is like kind of a poetic justice, I think.

392
00:28:32,172 --> 00:28:34,252
Like, you know, you got to buy your house cheap.

393
00:28:34,392 --> 00:28:36,232
Now you get like your wallet drained

394
00:28:36,232 --> 00:28:38,652
by like some really, really bad AI slop.

395
00:28:39,172 --> 00:28:41,152
That is kind of poetic.

396
00:28:41,652 --> 00:28:44,212
But yeah, I would underwrite that.

397
00:28:44,212 --> 00:28:48,712
Like AI is like the cult, like the great equalizer.

398
00:28:48,992 --> 00:28:50,592
It does not have to be slop.

399
00:28:50,592 --> 00:28:57,612
Like I've seen wonderful art, wonderful campaigns made on a very teeny tiny budget, and you would not know it.

400
00:28:58,052 --> 00:29:10,132
At the same time, you see slop, but I don't think the amount of slop has, I mean, it probably has increased, but like not necessarily due to AI, just because, you know, people don't have taste.

401
00:29:10,132 --> 00:29:17,372
if you have taste like the world is your oyster right now and i've seen developers who were not

402
00:29:17,372 --> 00:29:22,532
able to design build something themselves now and the same vice versa designers who did not know how

403
00:29:22,532 --> 00:29:30,752
to code uh make make their ideas now into reality and i myself like i like initially i i wanted to

404
00:29:30,752 --> 00:29:37,352
make my parents not proud and not become a mechanical engineer i wanted to go into movie

405
00:29:37,352 --> 00:29:43,232
making i wanted to become a cinematographer and i always like i've written as a passion project

406
00:29:43,232 --> 00:29:48,852
i've written uh screenplays and um like i've written movies and television show screenplays

407
00:29:48,852 --> 00:29:54,832
and like five people have read them um and and now i think we are getting to the point maybe there

408
00:29:54,832 --> 00:29:59,552
will be a cruise production like in the near future even if it's just a short movie because

409
00:29:59,552 --> 00:30:04,652
now you know there is nothing that you can lose and there is uh just you know you spend some time

410
00:30:04,652 --> 00:30:09,132
some credits and maybe your idea, you know, connects with people and then you can make it properly.

411
00:30:09,132 --> 00:30:14,572
But these kind of tools are, they arrive just at the right time, I think.

412
00:30:15,932 --> 00:30:20,572
Yeah. I mean, even podcasters, you don't even have to be a designer or a developer or a

413
00:30:20,572 --> 00:30:25,212
mechanical engineer. Like Peter McCormick had posted just recently, he was like, you know,

414
00:30:25,232 --> 00:30:30,912
I basically was using Claude and what would have cost me a couple hundred thousand pounds

415
00:30:30,912 --> 00:30:34,752
previously because I've done this same thing before and I had to pay for it.

416
00:30:34,872 --> 00:30:38,972
I did it for negligible cost and just me.

417
00:30:39,272 --> 00:30:41,232
And it's of high quality and it works.

418
00:30:41,232 --> 00:30:46,232
It is really being able to just do something.

419
00:30:46,632 --> 00:30:48,172
You can just build things, right?

420
00:30:49,772 --> 00:30:51,212
And you can just do things.

421
00:30:51,392 --> 00:30:55,932
But prior to this, it was very difficult for a non-technical person,

422
00:30:56,072 --> 00:30:58,332
for a non-developer to build any sort of software

423
00:30:58,332 --> 00:30:59,772
because you needed to bring in developers.

424
00:30:59,772 --> 00:31:03,592
you need to pay them a lot of money or if you're building a company you need to give them a

425
00:31:03,592 --> 00:31:07,872
substantial portion of equity since they're going to be doing a large part of the work now you have

426
00:31:07,872 --> 00:31:13,112
this ability to just build things yourself and that's not to say that really great developers

427
00:31:13,112 --> 00:31:19,332
are irrelevant i think they're even more relevant because they become you know as much as ai makes

428
00:31:19,332 --> 00:31:23,972
the non-technical person able to do things they never could before i think it also makes the

429
00:31:23,972 --> 00:31:28,512
highly technical person the highly skilled person it turns them into like a superhuman right like

430
00:31:28,512 --> 00:31:31,112
Like they, because they actually know how all this stuff works.

431
00:31:31,312 --> 00:31:37,112
You're going to be able to do so much more with a greater depth than, you know, you or I.

432
00:31:38,032 --> 00:31:38,952
Certainly more than me.

433
00:31:39,012 --> 00:31:40,152
I can't speak to you, but, you know.

434
00:31:40,152 --> 00:31:47,672
No, but I mean, if you look at Kali, like that guy, like, I don't know when he sleeps, like he has five different projects and tweets five times a minute.

435
00:31:48,372 --> 00:31:49,252
That is so impressive.

436
00:31:49,252 --> 00:31:56,552
And like, don't roll your own crypto and don't, you know, vibe code a wallet is what I would say.

437
00:31:56,552 --> 00:32:00,292
stick to proper security-hardened premises,

438
00:32:00,912 --> 00:32:02,992
but all the other things,

439
00:32:03,232 --> 00:32:07,372
the things that make your life more efficient

440
00:32:07,372 --> 00:32:12,052
and the day-to-day things that can be freed up

441
00:32:12,052 --> 00:32:17,192
if you know and have a healthy use for AI.

442
00:32:18,552 --> 00:32:21,592
But yeah, I'm surprised that Peter McCormack jumped on that train.

443
00:32:22,012 --> 00:32:23,552
Instead of asking him what's an expert,

444
00:32:23,672 --> 00:32:25,832
we should ask him what's a markdown file or something.

445
00:32:25,832 --> 00:32:32,232
like we need to update the meme on that yeah that's that's that's a good meme look at this

446
00:32:32,232 --> 00:32:37,492
this is a brainstorming session no i think peter peter is not a dummy he just plays one on tv you

447
00:32:37,492 --> 00:32:44,012
know it's all part of like his charming act you know yes we know quite cunning and he is curious

448
00:32:44,012 --> 00:32:49,732
that is his superpower he's curious and he knows how to ask a question i always say like when he

449
00:32:49,732 --> 00:32:55,612
interviews lynn alden i'm like i'm the grog brain listening and then i just telepathically you know

450
00:32:55,612 --> 00:32:57,472
I would ask this question because I'm dumb.

451
00:32:57,612 --> 00:33:00,252
And then suddenly like Peter comes out with the exact same question.

452
00:33:00,392 --> 00:33:02,692
Like he's a wonderful interviewer.

453
00:33:02,752 --> 00:33:04,172
So nothing but love, Peter.

454
00:33:05,152 --> 00:33:09,452
Yeah, no, he's the, he's the, nobody ever, nobody ever did it quite like him.

455
00:33:09,532 --> 00:33:10,952
And he still continues to do it.

456
00:33:11,492 --> 00:33:12,432
It's interesting too.

457
00:33:12,532 --> 00:33:14,832
I think his pivot was very successful.

458
00:33:15,732 --> 00:33:17,512
Initially I was like, oh, sweet.

459
00:33:17,572 --> 00:33:18,912
I'm going to fill the vacuum.

460
00:33:19,092 --> 00:33:19,712
Peter is leaving.

461
00:33:19,872 --> 00:33:22,272
And then Danny comes in and he's like, well, look at me.

462
00:33:22,272 --> 00:33:25,132
I'm doing what Bitcoin did again in it, you know?

463
00:33:25,132 --> 00:33:28,712
Did you just give Danny and Australian a British accent?

464
00:33:29,812 --> 00:33:30,732
Yeah, okay.

465
00:33:31,292 --> 00:33:32,932
My Australian accent isn't as good.

466
00:33:33,072 --> 00:33:33,972
Neither is my British accent.

467
00:33:33,972 --> 00:33:34,172
The American line.

468
00:33:34,952 --> 00:33:35,172
Yeah.

469
00:33:36,732 --> 00:33:38,392
One's a penal colony of the other.

470
00:33:38,612 --> 00:33:39,912
It's basically the same thing.

471
00:33:40,752 --> 00:33:42,812
But no, I think it is interesting.

472
00:33:42,932 --> 00:33:45,732
I'm curious too, in the realm of memetics,

473
00:33:46,012 --> 00:33:49,212
and what made me think of this is Peter kind of pivoting to

474
00:33:49,212 --> 00:33:51,892
not just being a Bitcoin podcast,

475
00:33:51,892 --> 00:33:54,432
but being like, it's just a politics.

476
00:33:54,432 --> 00:33:56,492
It's a, you know, it's a current events.

477
00:33:56,592 --> 00:33:57,192
It's a culture.

478
00:33:58,332 --> 00:34:07,732
He very much leaned into politics, obviously, because there's things going on in the UK that require the hero of Peter McCormick to put on his Batman cape and go save them.

479
00:34:08,292 --> 00:34:23,692
But I'm curious how much you think a kind of Bitcoin only or let's say Bitcoin specific content continues to be this viable niche versus how much it is actually beneficial for Bitcoin to have more branching out like that.

480
00:34:23,692 --> 00:34:27,152
to have you know as Peter says like Bitcoin is still the heartbeat of the show he still brings

481
00:34:27,152 --> 00:34:31,532
it up but it's not what he leads with you know what I mean so you're it's kind of the maybe the

482
00:34:31,532 --> 00:34:35,572
foot in the door versus door in the face like you're starting off you're not even mentioning

483
00:34:35,572 --> 00:34:38,912
it you know and then you you come around to Bitcoin later as a logical conclusion but

484
00:34:38,912 --> 00:34:45,792
I'd be curious to hear your thoughts yeah I mean uh he he sold the top quite well like he

485
00:34:45,792 --> 00:34:53,252
figured out like I mean like the Trojan horse like he has this like star prowess he gets a lot

486
00:34:53,252 --> 00:34:57,432
of really important guests that would otherwise not come on a Bitcoin podcast.

487
00:34:57,432 --> 00:35:04,692
And it's probably growing the space much further than a circle jerk Bitcoin only podcast.

488
00:35:04,852 --> 00:35:16,032
Not that I don't love them, but yeah, if you dig long enough into every problem that society

489
00:35:16,032 --> 00:35:20,812
has, you inevitably end at like corrupted money.

490
00:35:21,412 --> 00:35:23,272
And Bitcoin is the answer to that.

491
00:35:23,892 --> 00:35:31,012
And by the Socratic method of myiotic, like you can lead people to the solution without

492
00:35:31,012 --> 00:35:32,912
having to spell it out for them.

493
00:35:32,952 --> 00:35:34,312
And I think he does that quite well.

494
00:35:34,312 --> 00:35:37,432
And I think it was a really smart play of his.

495
00:35:38,052 --> 00:35:43,172
And then you see like other podcasters or like content producers or like entire teams

496
00:35:43,172 --> 00:35:46,272
like BTC sessions now moving to sovereign sessions,

497
00:35:46,492 --> 00:35:50,152
which is very important because like with AI,

498
00:35:50,572 --> 00:35:51,992
everything becomes easier.

499
00:35:52,412 --> 00:35:53,912
So it becomes surveillance.

500
00:35:54,352 --> 00:35:58,752
So it becomes all these things that we are like out of convenience.

501
00:35:58,752 --> 00:36:03,012
We use all these Google and Facebook and whatever tools or some of us do.

502
00:36:03,672 --> 00:36:05,992
And it is important to broaden the horizon.

503
00:36:05,992 --> 00:36:10,892
And if you create this content, like you can, yeah,

504
00:36:10,992 --> 00:36:12,372
don't have to lead with Bitcoin.

505
00:36:12,372 --> 00:36:16,392
Bitcoin inevitably becomes part of the conversation and you reach people.

506
00:36:16,652 --> 00:36:20,572
I think it's smart, but I'm not saying you should change the name of your podcast.

507
00:36:21,352 --> 00:36:22,832
Is mine too on the nose?

508
00:36:22,992 --> 00:36:24,412
Is that what you're getting at here?

509
00:36:24,512 --> 00:36:26,632
The Bitcoin podcast is a little bit too specific.

510
00:36:26,632 --> 00:36:27,232
I thought it was Bitcoin podcast.

511
00:36:27,392 --> 00:36:28,412
I'm not, okay.

512
00:36:28,692 --> 00:36:29,472
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

513
00:36:29,552 --> 00:36:32,072
It goes by many names, by many names.

514
00:36:32,212 --> 00:36:33,692
No, it's a good point.

515
00:36:33,772 --> 00:36:39,192
And I think that is basically the conclusion that every Bitcoiner comes to when you go deep enough down the rabbit hole, right?

516
00:36:39,212 --> 00:36:41,092
Is it kind of all roads lead to Bitcoin.

517
00:36:41,092 --> 00:36:46,912
some just take more meandering paths to get there and i do think it's interesting too it's

518
00:36:46,912 --> 00:36:54,112
from my own experience again i have not experienced that many cycles you know now um but from the

519
00:36:54,112 --> 00:36:58,472
recent uh let's say recent price action you know like fuck the cycles like let's just assume they

520
00:36:58,472 --> 00:37:03,772
don't exist but just speaking in near terms it has felt like there hasn't been let's say a new

521
00:37:03,772 --> 00:37:09,332
class of bitcoiners do you know what i mean like where it's like there there wasn't a massive retail

522
00:37:09,332 --> 00:37:10,772
influx?

523
00:37:11,952 --> 00:37:13,172
Or maybe I just missed it.

524
00:37:13,232 --> 00:37:14,572
Maybe that new class appeared in different ways.

525
00:37:14,672 --> 00:37:16,332
Maybe it appeared in the treasury companies.

526
00:37:16,552 --> 00:37:19,152
Maybe it appeared in people just passing by ETFs.

527
00:37:19,192 --> 00:37:19,592
I don't know.

528
00:37:19,592 --> 00:37:24,272
The suit coiner is the new class that is here probably to stay.

529
00:37:25,272 --> 00:37:31,052
The suit coiner is not interested in the privacy or in the freedom aspect of it.

530
00:37:31,312 --> 00:37:34,712
They are interested in the scarce properties of Bitcoin.

531
00:37:35,132 --> 00:37:36,132
And that is fine.

532
00:37:36,132 --> 00:37:41,412
does not interest me that much, like leverage yields and whatever.

533
00:37:43,012 --> 00:37:44,932
I wouldn't say they need to be fought,

534
00:37:44,932 --> 00:37:47,892
but I would say they can be wholeheartedly ignored

535
00:37:47,892 --> 00:37:54,052
during discussions about Bitcoin policy or relay or whatever.

536
00:37:54,332 --> 00:37:58,252
We need to definitely, in my opinion, improve Bitcoin

537
00:37:58,252 --> 00:38:03,792
and make it as private and as scaled as possible

538
00:38:03,792 --> 00:38:10,952
before the government fully captures Bitcoin in one way or another.

539
00:38:12,152 --> 00:38:14,692
But yeah, I think the new class is the suit coiner.

540
00:38:15,932 --> 00:38:18,672
That's an interesting perspective there.

541
00:38:18,772 --> 00:38:23,532
I'm curious too, because you mentioned scaling Bitcoin and privacy around Bitcoin,

542
00:38:23,612 --> 00:38:24,952
which sounds like changing Bitcoin.

543
00:38:24,952 --> 00:38:27,172
And I'd just like to ask, when did you become compromised?

544
00:38:28,032 --> 00:38:29,812
When did you first notice you were compromised?

545
00:38:29,812 --> 00:38:36,212
Yeah, when Luke Dasher sent the FBI after me.

546
00:38:36,212 --> 00:38:43,812
No, so I've always, first off, security is a moving target.

547
00:38:44,052 --> 00:38:48,232
So everybody who says Bitcoin can ossify does not know fuck from shit.

548
00:38:48,772 --> 00:38:53,532
And it will always have to have security vulnerability updates.

549
00:38:53,812 --> 00:38:59,412
And we will, it probably won't be quantum, but like there will be some upgrade in security.

550
00:38:59,412 --> 00:39:06,532
because even classical computers improve vastly, maybe not during my lifetime, but again, four decades from now.

551
00:39:06,532 --> 00:39:16,372
So we should very prudently, very conservatively, very well debated talk about improvements.

552
00:39:16,632 --> 00:39:19,052
And there are very many improvements to Bitcoin.

553
00:39:19,492 --> 00:39:22,412
Some of them are more urgent and necessary.

554
00:39:23,152 --> 00:39:26,192
Currently, we're discussing BIP54.

555
00:39:26,192 --> 00:39:37,712
There are four known vulnerabilities in Bitcoin as of right now, like a miner with sufficient hash rate could mine all of the rest of Bitcoin within two weeks.

556
00:39:38,312 --> 00:39:40,752
And all these things can be patched.

557
00:39:41,152 --> 00:39:46,012
And we should do that, not just to prove that we can still soft fork Bitcoin.

558
00:39:46,012 --> 00:39:59,112
then there are proposals like CTV or template hash, French CTV, that would make Bitcoin far better in many regards.

559
00:39:59,292 --> 00:40:01,032
It would be able to scale lightning.

560
00:40:01,212 --> 00:40:03,972
It would be better for Bitcoin and self-custody.

561
00:40:04,092 --> 00:40:07,552
We would have reactive security instead of proactive security.

562
00:40:07,552 --> 00:40:18,692
we could have a much easier self-custody, meaning more people would not rely on Clownbase or Bitfinex or all these exchanges as they are right now.

563
00:40:18,792 --> 00:40:23,052
Because not many people use Lightning in a self-custodial way.

564
00:40:23,172 --> 00:40:25,692
Not many people use Bitcoin in a self-custodial way.

565
00:40:26,152 --> 00:40:33,612
And if we did just that, like Jeremy Rubin proposed it like 10 years ago, I think, like 2015, 16, CTV.

566
00:40:33,792 --> 00:40:34,632
It has been velvetted.

567
00:40:34,792 --> 00:40:36,112
There is no bug in there.

568
00:40:36,112 --> 00:40:44,832
We could just push that, immediately scale lightning, immediately make Bitcoin much, much more secure.

569
00:40:45,392 --> 00:40:58,712
And suddenly we would see more on-chain activity, pricing out all of the spam that some people worry so much about and actually use Bitcoin as intended as peer-to-peer and not peer-to-exchange-to-peer.

570
00:41:00,092 --> 00:41:02,272
I would just check to mempool.space.

571
00:41:02,492 --> 00:41:04,792
Medium priority is one sat per V-byte.

572
00:41:04,952 --> 00:41:05,332
Yes.

573
00:41:05,332 --> 00:41:08,252
Low priority, 0.8 sat per V-byte.

574
00:41:08,352 --> 00:41:11,612
High priority, two sats per V-byte, which is great.

575
00:41:11,672 --> 00:41:17,632
So if you need to do some, moving some Bitcoin on chain, you know, boy, it's been, now's a good time.

576
00:41:17,652 --> 00:41:20,332
And it's been a very good time for quite a while.

577
00:41:21,152 --> 00:41:22,492
It's been incredible.

578
00:41:22,492 --> 00:41:27,072
It's insanely underpriced, but the free market gets to decide that price.

579
00:41:27,732 --> 00:41:47,184
And currently it valued at less than one sat per V which is sad because that allows spammers to put idiotic spam on there And if more people were excited about Bitcoin and would use it in a self way that would not be the case So that why I think Bitcoin you know

580
00:41:47,624 --> 00:41:49,944
who said it, was it Paul Stortz?

581
00:41:50,084 --> 00:41:51,384
Not to endorse Paul Stortz,

582
00:41:51,444 --> 00:41:52,904
but he said like Bitcoin developers

583
00:41:52,904 --> 00:41:55,764
lost 40 IQ points during the block size wars.

584
00:41:56,204 --> 00:42:00,424
They became too scared to ever, you know,

585
00:42:00,424 --> 00:42:02,004
champion another soft fork.

586
00:42:02,004 --> 00:42:07,824
and we have been, you know, lost our way in that regard.

587
00:42:07,984 --> 00:42:10,784
So I hope in the near-term future we see PIP54,

588
00:42:11,344 --> 00:42:14,384
we see a variant of a covenant proposal,

589
00:42:14,844 --> 00:42:19,264
whether it is CTV, CSFS, or TX hash or template hash.

590
00:42:19,804 --> 00:42:23,024
All of these would be fine, in my opinion,

591
00:42:23,304 --> 00:42:24,764
but don't take my word for it.

592
00:42:24,864 --> 00:42:28,004
Don't trust, verify, have your own opinion.

593
00:42:28,304 --> 00:42:29,444
The materials are out there.

594
00:42:29,444 --> 00:42:46,844
I just think if you truly believe Bitcoin needs to scale to 8 billion people and self-custody should be done by your grandma, then we need to improve Bitcoin just a little bit.

595
00:42:48,284 --> 00:42:52,644
It's interesting because I think you and Luke are actually in full agreement on that.

596
00:42:52,844 --> 00:42:56,664
He's literally said ossification to ossification is death.

597
00:42:56,664 --> 00:43:00,504
But he's literally like, he said exactly that.

598
00:43:00,584 --> 00:43:05,384
Like you can just search ossify or ossification on his X feed and you'll find he's very clear about that.

599
00:43:05,464 --> 00:43:07,444
He thinks that if Bitcoin ossifies, it is dead.

600
00:43:08,004 --> 00:43:11,124
It's interesting that many adherents have the opposite position.

601
00:43:11,124 --> 00:43:24,444
If I argue, like if I relapse on my very excellent time management and I go back on Twitter and argue with not supporters, a surprising amount are vehemently against CTV.

602
00:43:24,444 --> 00:43:28,604
first of all because likely they do not understand the implications

603
00:43:28,604 --> 00:43:32,424
but they're not aware that like Death and Ohm

604
00:43:32,424 --> 00:43:36,744
and Chris Gita and Luke Dasher and all of these people are very big proponents

605
00:43:36,744 --> 00:43:38,944
of that and Luke Dasher

606
00:43:38,944 --> 00:43:44,564
despite our disagreement, he wants

607
00:43:44,564 --> 00:43:48,684
what's best for Bitcoin from his point

608
00:43:48,684 --> 00:43:52,484
of view. Where I disagree with him, Luke Dasher

609
00:43:52,484 --> 00:43:54,104
thinks Bitcoin is his project.

610
00:43:54,604 --> 00:43:56,504
So, you know, there are some difference

611
00:43:56,504 --> 00:43:57,904
of opinion there.

612
00:43:59,104 --> 00:44:00,684
But yeah, on that

613
00:44:00,684 --> 00:44:02,584
regard, like I can find common ground

614
00:44:02,584 --> 00:44:04,664
with most everybody, even

615
00:44:04,664 --> 00:44:06,444
Michael Saylor. So, you know,

616
00:44:06,704 --> 00:44:08,764
that is the message that you can take away from this.

617
00:44:08,944 --> 00:44:10,844
Like, instead of looking,

618
00:44:11,064 --> 00:44:11,924
you know, to

619
00:44:11,924 --> 00:44:14,564
differentiate you from one another,

620
00:44:15,044 --> 00:44:16,944
find the common things and ignore the rest.

621
00:44:17,424 --> 00:44:18,784
And then you will realize

622
00:44:18,784 --> 00:44:20,864
we probably get much further

623
00:44:20,864 --> 00:44:24,284
in this community if we, you know, focus on what we have in common.

624
00:44:25,624 --> 00:44:27,964
I mean, I completely agree with that.

625
00:44:28,084 --> 00:44:28,704
And that's the thing.

626
00:44:28,764 --> 00:44:32,324
At the end of the day, it's like there are different flavors of Bitcoiners

627
00:44:32,324 --> 00:44:37,304
and many, many different opinions about what should or shouldn't be done with Bitcoin,

628
00:44:37,484 --> 00:44:40,204
what needs to be done to save or to not save Bitcoin,

629
00:44:40,384 --> 00:44:42,744
who is a good actor, who is a bad actor, who is compromised,

630
00:44:43,004 --> 00:44:44,664
who is the knight in shining armor.

631
00:44:45,184 --> 00:44:45,964
And that's fine.

632
00:44:46,004 --> 00:44:47,584
And I think that that's ultimately good.

633
00:44:47,584 --> 00:45:04,924
And I truly agree with you that the important thing is remembering that I like to assume at least, and perhaps this is a naive assumption, but I will assume good intent if I have the evidence to show that the intent is good.

634
00:45:04,924 --> 00:45:10,584
That the person's coming from a place of genuinely wanting to do what's best by Bitcoin, which I believe that Luke absolutely is.

635
00:45:10,584 --> 00:45:17,644
um and i think you know uh certainly everybody uh i've tried not to talk about uh i don't i

636
00:45:17,644 --> 00:45:24,504
haven't talked about you know that whole side of things uh let's end some i don't know i don't

637
00:45:24,504 --> 00:45:32,624
even i don't even know let's wait for them to fork off in august hopefully they will wake up

638
00:45:32,624 --> 00:45:39,124
you know but you know yeah it's going to be interesting uh i i think that well this brings

639
00:45:39,124 --> 00:45:43,884
me to something I wanted to ask you about, which is everybody has a different opinion about what

640
00:45:43,884 --> 00:45:50,284
is the biggest threat to Bitcoin. Some people may say it's spam on the blockchain. Some people may

641
00:45:50,284 --> 00:45:55,704
say it's a nation state level type co-option. Others may say it's centralization of coins in

642
00:45:55,704 --> 00:46:00,984
the hands of corporations. Others may say it's failure to ossify that if we, you know, or failure

643
00:46:00,984 --> 00:46:05,484
to ossify. Others say that it's, if we don't ossify it, or if we do ossify, it's death. You know,

644
00:46:05,484 --> 00:46:06,964
So many different perspectives.

645
00:46:07,184 --> 00:46:12,604
What do you actually think is, you know, you mentioned privacy, you mentioned scaling, you mentioned, you know, some of these BIPs.

646
00:46:13,184 --> 00:46:17,804
What do you think is the biggest actual threat to Bitcoin at this time?

647
00:46:19,024 --> 00:46:22,064
Yeah, so let's go through this, like, one by one.

648
00:46:22,224 --> 00:46:27,764
You mentioned, like, large single institutional holders.

649
00:46:27,764 --> 00:46:30,664
I don't think there is a threat there.

650
00:46:30,664 --> 00:46:37,044
If Michael Saylor is not taking his coins into self-custody, first of all, they're not just his coins.

651
00:46:37,164 --> 00:46:39,444
They're like hundreds of thousands of investors' coins.

652
00:46:40,104 --> 00:46:46,004
It's not just MicroStrategy, but there's people or investment funds behind this.

653
00:46:48,084 --> 00:46:56,444
Maybe it will be seized by the government and this will be the budget-neutral American Bitcoin Reserve, which would be nice for you.

654
00:46:56,464 --> 00:46:57,224
I'd be happy for you.

655
00:46:57,564 --> 00:46:58,944
But I don't think that is a threat.

656
00:46:58,944 --> 00:47:01,284
the game theory works

657
00:47:01,284 --> 00:47:03,624
such as who's the most greedy

658
00:47:03,624 --> 00:47:05,324
protects the network the most

659
00:47:05,324 --> 00:47:07,044
and he's doing that quite well

660
00:47:07,044 --> 00:47:09,504
nation state

661
00:47:09,504 --> 00:47:10,484
attacks

662
00:47:10,484 --> 00:47:13,264
they can be a thing

663
00:47:13,264 --> 00:47:15,344
in the sense like we could do some secret

664
00:47:15,344 --> 00:47:17,104
mining, we could do some supply chain attacks

665
00:47:17,104 --> 00:47:19,364
these things need to be watched

666
00:47:19,364 --> 00:47:19,924
out for

667
00:47:19,924 --> 00:47:22,624
the thing that

668
00:47:22,624 --> 00:47:25,304
I fear the

669
00:47:25,304 --> 00:47:26,864
most, there are two things

670
00:47:26,864 --> 00:47:28,304
at the social layer

671
00:47:28,304 --> 00:47:33,924
So there is this famous video, it's called Operation Orchestra.

672
00:47:34,584 --> 00:47:35,664
Everybody should watch it.

673
00:47:35,784 --> 00:47:36,724
I'll send you the link.

674
00:47:38,044 --> 00:47:40,044
It's by Paul Kemp.

675
00:47:41,084 --> 00:47:46,164
He came up, by the way, with a phrase of bike shedding,

676
00:47:46,404 --> 00:47:47,964
like he coined that term.

677
00:47:49,044 --> 00:47:51,964
But that is a way where open source projects are

678
00:47:51,964 --> 00:48:00,684
subverted by NSA actors or like secret service people that, you know,

679
00:48:00,784 --> 00:48:06,024
then without doing it overtly, sabotage a project from the inside.

680
00:48:06,744 --> 00:48:10,564
So again, with open source code, everybody says don't trust Verify.

681
00:48:10,964 --> 00:48:13,444
You and I, we probably can't read code, so we have to trust.

682
00:48:13,504 --> 00:48:16,624
We have to trust other people, and we need more code review,

683
00:48:16,624 --> 00:48:21,324
and we need more developers, and we need more people that are at that level

684
00:48:21,324 --> 00:48:26,884
that is adequate for this many trillion dollar asset.

685
00:48:27,624 --> 00:48:29,724
And we have a few of these,

686
00:48:29,844 --> 00:48:31,324
like there's 40 people, I would say,

687
00:48:31,804 --> 00:48:33,404
that are on that level.

688
00:48:34,104 --> 00:48:36,264
And what has been demonstrated

689
00:48:36,264 --> 00:48:37,584
the last one and a half years,

690
00:48:37,764 --> 00:48:39,124
that is the second point,

691
00:48:39,124 --> 00:48:44,544
a lot of people have been violently attacked and smeared

692
00:48:44,544 --> 00:48:47,724
and their private and social lives have been scrutinized

693
00:48:47,724 --> 00:48:55,184
and people that led a private life, you know, have been, again,

694
00:48:55,444 --> 00:49:00,964
attacked for like insane reasons up to the point where they then called quits

695
00:49:00,964 --> 00:49:03,004
and then like left the project.

696
00:49:03,684 --> 00:49:09,544
And having to replace these, I think that has done the largest

697
00:49:09,544 --> 00:49:11,884
or the biggest amount of damage to Bitcoin as the project.

698
00:49:11,884 --> 00:49:16,304
Like just recently with Gloria Zhao, like having a developer

699
00:49:16,304 --> 00:49:18,044
of that nature.

700
00:49:18,324 --> 00:49:20,644
She was great. She worked

701
00:49:20,644 --> 00:49:22,844
relentlessly. She had so many contributions.

702
00:49:23,564 --> 00:49:24,864
She was so good

703
00:49:24,864 --> 00:49:26,084
that even Luke Dasher

704
00:49:26,084 --> 00:49:28,704
recommended her for maintainership.

705
00:49:29,284 --> 00:49:30,704
And then she merged one

706
00:49:30,704 --> 00:49:32,964
single line of code that she didn't write

707
00:49:32,964 --> 00:49:34,904
that others reviewed, her peers

708
00:49:34,904 --> 00:49:36,784
reviewed and marked up for

709
00:49:36,784 --> 00:49:38,384
it's ready to be committed.

710
00:49:38,384 --> 00:49:40,104
And she merged it and

711
00:49:40,104 --> 00:49:42,524
that was then enough

712
00:49:42,524 --> 00:49:44,484
for quacks and

713
00:49:44,484 --> 00:49:45,484
people with a

714
00:49:45,484 --> 00:49:48,804
very sorry life to smear her.

715
00:49:49,604 --> 00:49:54,724
And that led to her quitting the project, which again, find somebody else like that.

716
00:49:54,884 --> 00:49:57,284
You won't be able to find somebody like one in a million.

717
00:49:57,924 --> 00:50:01,644
And that is, I think, the biggest threat that we face right now.

718
00:50:02,304 --> 00:50:07,984
And one way you can help ameliorate that is fund people.

719
00:50:08,904 --> 00:50:13,264
Be generous with your stack if you are early to Bitcoin or if you're not that early.

720
00:50:13,264 --> 00:50:31,144
But like everybody can donate some amount of Bitcoin to either one of the organizations that distribute this fairly or directly to a developer to help them, to encourage them, to give feedback on their work, actual feedback, not just brigading on GitHub.

721
00:50:32,444 --> 00:50:34,744
And, you know, speak words of encouragement.

722
00:50:34,924 --> 00:50:35,644
That can be privately.

723
00:50:35,824 --> 00:50:37,024
That can be like openly.

724
00:50:38,024 --> 00:50:42,904
And to like a single message can help somebody from burning out.

725
00:50:43,264 --> 00:50:57,084
And that is, I think, what we saw the last one and a half years or so, that the community is not as grateful as they should be about the people that help Bitcoin what it is today.

726
00:50:57,084 --> 00:51:09,824
Because Satoshi left. That motherfucker left. He left us all in our own terms. And now we have this great thing that he came up with. And yeah, we should not fuck that up.

727
00:51:09,824 --> 00:51:15,144
And I think we need constant development and we need the best developers.

728
00:51:15,784 --> 00:51:17,924
And so we should not scare them away.

729
00:51:19,164 --> 00:51:23,044
So you don't think quantum is the biggest threat to Bitcoin?

730
00:51:26,464 --> 00:51:30,964
So quantum, again, I'm just a dumb engineer.

731
00:51:31,104 --> 00:51:32,404
I'm not a quantum physicist.

732
00:51:32,664 --> 00:51:36,024
I talked to very smart quantum physicists.

733
00:51:36,024 --> 00:51:42,964
So like we as Europoers in Austria and Innsbruck, we have one of the world's leading quantum laboratories.

734
00:51:43,684 --> 00:51:49,624
And I've talked to them like early as 2022, 2023, because we had a Bitcoin conference in that town.

735
00:51:50,304 --> 00:51:53,704
And I've been keeping up with their progress.

736
00:51:54,044 --> 00:51:59,184
And I've been, again, from a scientific mind, you know, I used to be a researcher.

737
00:51:59,644 --> 00:52:02,224
I try to grok these things.

738
00:52:02,544 --> 00:52:04,864
And AI, of course, helps me with that.

739
00:52:04,864 --> 00:52:14,164
But from my understanding and from the people that I respect and have talked to, it is far from an urgent threat.

740
00:52:15,044 --> 00:52:22,264
And as an engineer, I'm missing quantifiable data points to even extrapolate anything from that.

741
00:52:22,264 --> 00:52:38,784
There are all these charts. My good dear friend Nikata puts out these charts. And he has this wonderful vehicle that recently gave out a one Bitcoin price for somebody who submitted a random number generator, which, you know, it's a good use of your money.

742
00:52:38,784 --> 00:52:45,584
and they say by 2030, ECDSA will be broken

743
00:52:45,584 --> 00:52:49,684
and 256 or 128-bit keys will be broken,

744
00:52:50,024 --> 00:52:51,784
which I think is some gobbledygook.

745
00:52:54,484 --> 00:52:58,644
Cryptography is always on the side of the weaker people

746
00:52:58,644 --> 00:53:02,944
and we already, with a lot of really smart people

747
00:53:02,944 --> 00:53:05,524
like Jonas Nick or Ethan Heilman,

748
00:53:05,644 --> 00:53:08,284
we are working on defense

749
00:53:08,284 --> 00:53:10,904
and it's much, much easier to defend yourself.

750
00:53:11,204 --> 00:53:14,504
I always say like against a nuke than to build a nuke.

751
00:53:14,804 --> 00:53:18,444
And like we already have post-quantum signatures

752
00:53:18,444 --> 00:53:19,504
of a certain size.

753
00:53:20,104 --> 00:53:21,724
They could be implemented,

754
00:53:22,084 --> 00:53:24,104
but they would cuck the chain right now.

755
00:53:24,204 --> 00:53:25,884
We would have to do a block increase

756
00:53:25,884 --> 00:53:27,944
and we know how that is like going down.

757
00:53:28,684 --> 00:53:30,404
But we continue to work on that.

758
00:53:30,644 --> 00:53:34,484
And it is, I think, correct.

759
00:53:34,484 --> 00:53:37,604
And I wouldn't say it's due to Nick Carter

760
00:53:37,604 --> 00:53:40,504
because we've been doing it for like years prior.

761
00:53:40,744 --> 00:53:42,184
Like there's Presidio Bitcoin Conference

762
00:53:42,184 --> 00:53:44,044
and all these people have been working on that.

763
00:53:44,464 --> 00:53:47,004
Like we should pay attention to it

764
00:53:47,004 --> 00:53:49,884
and we should have a plan.

765
00:53:51,024 --> 00:53:52,604
Mike Schmidt said in the bullpen,

766
00:53:53,184 --> 00:53:57,444
in the event there is a canary that shows us,

767
00:53:57,564 --> 00:53:59,044
hey, quantum is not just fake,

768
00:53:59,564 --> 00:54:05,184
but we have so many more urgent problems

769
00:54:05,184 --> 00:54:06,624
facing Bitcoin, I would say,

770
00:54:06,624 --> 00:54:10,764
that we should not focus all of our developers' time on that

771
00:54:10,764 --> 00:54:13,284
and we should not be crying wolf.

772
00:54:13,884 --> 00:54:18,944
And I'm very confident sooner or later we will find a PQ signature

773
00:54:18,944 --> 00:54:20,884
as small as Nick Carter and then we'll save.

774
00:54:23,824 --> 00:54:25,644
It's interesting to learn the quantum thing

775
00:54:25,644 --> 00:54:28,704
because if anything, I hope that if people have been paying attention to this,

776
00:54:28,764 --> 00:54:30,284
one of the things that they've taken away from it

777
00:54:30,284 --> 00:54:33,644
is just the practical tip that what's one of the best ways

778
00:54:33,644 --> 00:54:37,444
to make sure that you're to be are going to be quantum safe.

779
00:54:37,444 --> 00:54:39,724
Well, just don't reuse addresses like that.

780
00:54:39,724 --> 00:54:43,644
You know, just don't don't reuse your address, which you shouldn't be doing anyway.

781
00:54:43,904 --> 00:54:46,404
Like that's a that's a good bit of advice anyway.

782
00:54:46,404 --> 00:54:47,884
You should. That's a best practice.

783
00:54:47,884 --> 00:54:52,144
You should already be practicing is don't reuse addresses.

784
00:54:53,184 --> 00:54:56,944
And that basically mitigates, you know, the vast majority of even the,

785
00:54:56,944 --> 00:55:02,544
you know, longer tail risk on these things, which I think is like it's a, you know,

786
00:55:02,544 --> 00:55:04,984
And it's like, hey, that's something you can do literally right now.

787
00:55:05,064 --> 00:55:06,464
And nobody has to do it for you.

788
00:55:06,764 --> 00:55:07,884
You can just go ahead and do that.

789
00:55:08,004 --> 00:55:10,024
Obviously, the question is Satoshi's coins and all that.

790
00:55:10,144 --> 00:55:10,724
Yes, yes, yes.

791
00:55:10,844 --> 00:55:12,584
But like for you as a person.

792
00:55:14,024 --> 00:55:17,264
There is this like maybe benefit of this quantum panic.

793
00:55:17,744 --> 00:55:25,564
Like the biggest people messing this up with address reuse are exchanges.

794
00:55:26,084 --> 00:55:29,124
Like we should bully more exchanges into not reusing addresses.

795
00:55:29,264 --> 00:55:30,444
There's no reason to do that.

796
00:55:32,544 --> 00:55:41,484
And again, like the short range attack of like attacking a transaction in the mempool when like the public key is revealed, like that is so far out there.

797
00:55:41,584 --> 00:55:46,364
And like most quantum computer types like are not capable of doing that.

798
00:55:46,364 --> 00:55:50,444
Like those neutral atom quantum computers, they can't do a nine minute attack.

799
00:55:53,324 --> 00:56:00,884
Having said that, I think the actual quantum debate won't be about actual PQ mitigation.

800
00:56:00,884 --> 00:56:03,144
It will be way earlier than that.

801
00:56:03,324 --> 00:56:10,304
There will be a class of Bitcoiners afraid of quantum and they want to act now and others who are not afraid.

802
00:56:10,524 --> 00:56:12,044
And then there will be like a split.

803
00:56:12,504 --> 00:56:15,704
And then the discussion will come, you know, what to do with Satorish's coins.

804
00:56:16,884 --> 00:56:22,384
That is like the only like foreseeable actionable thing that I see right now.

805
00:56:22,624 --> 00:56:27,584
And I believe there will be a futures market somewhere as we had with Segwit2x or something.

806
00:56:28,004 --> 00:56:29,784
And then the free market gets to decide.

807
00:56:29,784 --> 00:56:42,244
And I believe Bitcoin's promise is immutability and it's permissionless and property rights need to be respected.

808
00:56:42,944 --> 00:56:56,164
And Satoshi had any amount of time or any chance to burn those Bitcoins if he actually wanted to show us that he's not just LARPing and he wants to never move them.

809
00:56:56,164 --> 00:57:03,924
Like he could have known that sending it to an op return would forever make them unspendable and it would have saved us a lot of headaches.

810
00:57:04,364 --> 00:57:22,544
But maybe like the game theory of Bitcoin is so strong that it just mutates that in the end, the biggest holders like Coinbase or BlackRock or Michael Saylor, again, also just Coinbase, they're incentivized to protect their bag.

811
00:57:22,544 --> 00:57:25,084
and so they, after

812
00:57:25,084 --> 00:57:27,464
nation states got their

813
00:57:27,464 --> 00:57:28,184
quantum computer

814
00:57:28,184 --> 00:57:31,064
they will not play their hand, they will

815
00:57:31,064 --> 00:57:33,384
crack encryption of Chinese governments

816
00:57:33,384 --> 00:57:35,324
or whatever, they will not go after Bitcoin

817
00:57:35,324 --> 00:57:37,544
and say, hey, by the way, we have

818
00:57:37,544 --> 00:57:39,304
this thing and we can read all your

819
00:57:39,304 --> 00:57:41,364
communications. The next

820
00:57:41,364 --> 00:57:43,224
people who will have a quantum computer will be

821
00:57:43,224 --> 00:57:45,044
private companies

822
00:57:45,044 --> 00:57:47,604
they will be very expensive, they will be very slow

823
00:57:47,604 --> 00:57:49,484
and the largest

824
00:57:49,484 --> 00:57:51,404
holders want to protect their bags and they

825
00:57:51,404 --> 00:57:57,584
will go out hunting and satoshi's bitcoin are i believe on 22 000 individual p2pk addresses

826
00:57:57,584 --> 00:58:03,904
and then you have to expand capital and you have to reclaim those bitcoin and then maybe you have

827
00:58:03,904 --> 00:58:09,424
to sell some some of them and then you can put some of them into your balance and because you

828
00:58:09,424 --> 00:58:13,424
want to protect your investment you maybe you know do this transaction and add an operator and

829
00:58:13,424 --> 00:58:19,164
signifying hey by the way coinbase it's us we we are not dumping it we're putting into our balance

830
00:58:19,164 --> 00:58:22,904
and that sounds strikingly similar to mining

831
00:58:22,904 --> 00:58:25,444
and that is the future that I envision

832
00:58:25,444 --> 00:58:27,484
that there will be mining

833
00:58:27,484 --> 00:58:29,604
and there will be like a security budget upgrade

834
00:58:29,604 --> 00:58:34,784
just in a different way with post-quantum

835
00:58:34,784 --> 00:58:38,664
but again, that is way, way, way out.

836
00:58:39,784 --> 00:58:41,984
That's a really interesting way to think about it

837
00:58:41,984 --> 00:58:45,164
that it's almost this new form of mining or treasure hunting

838
00:58:45,164 --> 00:58:47,744
that kind of develops out of this.

839
00:58:47,744 --> 00:58:55,304
So it's safe to say you're not a fan of some of the, even like the rate limiting, you know, kind of let's say the hybrid approaches.

840
00:58:55,444 --> 00:58:58,124
Because there's obviously like the full, like freeze them, you know, freeze it.

841
00:58:58,444 --> 00:59:03,424
Anything that's in one of these addresses, not just Satoshi's coins, but any coins, freeze them.

842
00:59:03,744 --> 00:59:06,704
Then there's like the kind of BIP 360, the rate limiting side of things.

843
00:59:06,784 --> 00:59:11,364
There's various proposals on how, or various kind of sub-proposals on how to do that.

844
00:59:11,844 --> 00:59:15,084
You're saying just like the kind of like do nothing.

845
00:59:15,084 --> 00:59:17,644
if it happens, okay, it happens.

846
00:59:17,904 --> 00:59:21,264
We haven't changed the core premise of Bitcoin

847
00:59:21,264 --> 00:59:24,184
in such a way that it would be ultimately like

848
00:59:24,184 --> 00:59:26,164
invalidating of the Bitcoin thesis

849
00:59:26,164 --> 00:59:28,184
by taking one of these actions

850
00:59:28,184 --> 00:59:31,224
that subverts one's property rights within Bitcoin.

851
00:59:32,304 --> 00:59:36,504
Yeah, so I would think it would do greater damage to Bitcoin

852
00:59:36,504 --> 00:59:40,824
to change the property rights proposal

853
00:59:40,824 --> 00:59:44,924
or the promise than to have Bitcoin move

854
00:59:44,924 --> 00:59:50,064
again, Mt. Gox was hacked for 800,000 Bitcoin

855
00:59:50,064 --> 00:59:52,684
and the market survived.

856
00:59:52,904 --> 00:59:55,744
Again, you could argue it was at a much, much lower market cap.

857
00:59:56,904 --> 00:59:59,964
But I believe a million point one

858
00:59:59,964 --> 01:00:03,684
and some Bitcoin, it is possible.

859
01:00:03,824 --> 01:00:06,664
Again, of the, I think, six million, six and a half million Bitcoin

860
01:00:06,664 --> 01:00:08,444
that are supposedly quantum vulnerable,

861
01:00:08,824 --> 01:00:10,844
most of those are on reused addresses.

862
01:00:10,844 --> 01:00:16,224
and those are probably likely still with owners who are alive and kicking

863
01:00:16,224 --> 01:00:17,824
and they can mitigate and migrate.

864
01:00:18,884 --> 01:00:20,824
Essentially, we're talking probably about 2 million Bitcoin.

865
01:00:21,864 --> 01:00:26,204
And we will have a future where we have post-quantum signatures

866
01:00:26,204 --> 01:00:29,284
and people have ample time to move and migrate.

867
01:00:30,104 --> 01:00:36,164
And yeah, I'm adamantly against freezing and burning.

868
01:00:36,164 --> 01:00:45,204
I am not opposed to having this hourglass thing where you only have so many pay-to-pup-key spends in a block.

869
01:00:46,064 --> 01:00:48,064
But again, let's discuss it.

870
01:00:48,344 --> 01:00:49,604
It's worthwhile to have the discussion.

871
01:00:49,764 --> 01:00:57,244
And again, I am thankful for Ian Smith and what's his name, Luke and Jameson Lopp for like BIP361.

872
01:00:57,664 --> 01:01:05,284
They got a lot of flack because people only read the headline, but that is a Bitcoin room proposal discussing potential things.

873
01:01:05,284 --> 01:01:15,864
They are not in favor of those, but like it's worthwhile having the discussion and we should separate who brings those ideas to the forefront from the idea itself.

874
01:01:15,864 --> 01:01:19,684
And we can explore and talk about it for the next 25 years.

875
01:01:20,824 --> 01:01:21,724
At least.

876
01:01:23,844 --> 01:01:30,404
I'm of the same opinion on kind of the base case and then also with regard to the rate limiting hourglass.

877
01:01:30,404 --> 01:01:38,124
I think that's the most palatable of the potential options that have been thrown out there, in my mind at least.

878
01:01:39,144 --> 01:01:45,044
And yeah, the nice thing about this conversation is that it is one that is not purely technical.

879
01:01:45,384 --> 01:01:52,404
Like there are technical solutions for how to do this, but the larger question is actually more philosophical or game theoretical, right?

880
01:01:52,404 --> 01:02:05,684
And so I think that's a nice thing because it allows actually a larger group of people to be able to contribute to that conversation in a meaningful way who may not be, you know, they don't understand how different address types work at a technical, you know, core level.

881
01:02:05,684 --> 01:02:07,504
You're talking about Bitcoin podcasters. Exactly.

882
01:02:08,504 --> 01:02:14,744
Exactly. What I'm saying is there's still room for the humble Bitcoin podcaster to get their two cents in.

883
01:02:14,744 --> 01:02:21,184
So we need the post-quantum podcast now, the post-quantum podcast.

884
01:02:21,184 --> 01:02:39,656
That going to be necessary to get us through this I think Okay so maybe a couple other things I wanted to I guess just more broadly get into with you is a state of kind of like medium of exchange adoption versus store of value adoption

885
01:02:39,656 --> 01:02:49,136
Because we talked about the, obviously, like the suitification, let's say, of Bitcoin and very much, especially in the West, especially in the United States of America.

886
01:02:49,136 --> 01:02:55,976
the primary kind of use case for most people has been store of value, right?

887
01:02:56,936 --> 01:03:00,776
Now, if you go outside of America, that obviously changes drastically, right?

888
01:03:01,236 --> 01:03:04,556
The future is here, but it's not evenly distributed yet.

889
01:03:05,036 --> 01:03:07,436
Places where people need to use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange,

890
01:03:07,496 --> 01:03:09,956
where they don't have stable banking, they don't have the U.S. dollar,

891
01:03:10,656 --> 01:03:13,656
they use it far more as a medium of exchange.

892
01:03:13,756 --> 01:03:15,296
They also use stable coins and many other things.

893
01:03:15,516 --> 01:03:18,416
There's also much higher usage of that, obviously, outside of the U.S.

894
01:03:18,416 --> 01:03:20,656
You know, that's where, you know, the global south, right?

895
01:03:21,536 --> 01:03:27,756
I'm curious because I've seen the debate recently about, you know, is holding Bitcoin, is just holding Bitcoin using it?

896
01:03:27,936 --> 01:03:31,736
Or do you have to spend Bitcoin to use it?

897
01:03:31,856 --> 01:03:39,116
Where do you fall on this in terms of, you know, I guess I don't like to tell anybody how to use their money in whatever way.

898
01:03:39,176 --> 01:03:39,976
Like, do whatever the fuck you want.

899
01:03:40,016 --> 01:03:40,796
That's the whole point of Bitcoin.

900
01:03:41,156 --> 01:03:45,636
But I do, I would like to know your perspective on, you know, does, let me ask you a different way.

901
01:03:45,636 --> 01:03:53,956
Does Bitcoin need to be widely used as a medium of exchange, either on layer one or subsequent layers, for it to achieve its true potential?

902
01:03:54,256 --> 01:03:58,496
Or is it being a pristine piece of capital, pristine collateral?

903
01:03:58,676 --> 01:03:59,276
Is that enough?

904
01:04:01,076 --> 01:04:05,816
No, you have to use Bitcoin as money in order for this to work.

905
01:04:06,016 --> 01:04:07,436
Not everybody has to do that.

906
01:04:07,656 --> 01:04:10,676
And saving is a valid monetary use case.

907
01:04:10,796 --> 01:04:13,396
And if you just huddle it, that is perfectly fine.

908
01:04:13,396 --> 01:04:17,436
and if you huddle it and proclaim that you will never, ever, ever spend it,

909
01:04:17,516 --> 01:04:18,456
that is also fine.

910
01:04:18,616 --> 01:04:20,756
I think that is retarded, but it is fine.

911
01:04:21,376 --> 01:04:22,436
That is your right.

912
01:04:22,936 --> 01:04:26,216
But in order for miners to make a living,

913
01:04:26,336 --> 01:04:29,856
you have to have a transaction and you have to eventually pay a fee.

914
01:04:30,876 --> 01:04:37,656
And Bitcoin was not intended as a peer-to-peer digital rock, but cash.

915
01:04:37,656 --> 01:04:42,276
So I always encourage people to spend and replace.

916
01:04:42,956 --> 01:04:49,036
I understand that law-abiding people have a problem with that due to taxation.

917
01:04:49,836 --> 01:05:00,716
In Germany just now, there has been – because accidentally it was very easy in Germany to spend your Bitcoin because if you held it for longer than one year, there was no capital gains tax.

918
01:05:00,796 --> 01:05:04,016
It was entirely by accident because they classified it similar to gold.

919
01:05:04,016 --> 01:05:12,036
It's one of those – like Germany still uses fax machines and had very idiotic internet laws.

920
01:05:12,276 --> 01:05:14,936
but that they actually got right.

921
01:05:15,296 --> 01:05:20,216
However, now the Greens proposed a new amendment

922
01:05:20,216 --> 01:05:23,436
to have capital gains after forever,

923
01:05:23,976 --> 01:05:28,016
similar as they changed in Austria,

924
01:05:28,496 --> 01:05:30,616
because there's a crypto accounting company

925
01:05:30,616 --> 01:05:35,256
that lobbied and made some phenomenal moon math

926
01:05:35,256 --> 01:05:38,356
and told them, hey, if you change the law like that,

927
01:05:38,356 --> 01:05:41,856
you will have billions upon billions of taxable,

928
01:05:41,856 --> 01:05:47,936
surplus next year, which never materialized, but they are trying to run the same scam again

929
01:05:47,936 --> 01:05:50,056
now and it's being discussed in Germany.

930
01:05:51,196 --> 01:05:58,756
So long tangent there, but I myself, again, use Bitcoin literally daily in my company

931
01:05:58,756 --> 01:06:02,396
privately, like we send and pay and receive Bitcoin.

932
01:06:03,076 --> 01:06:08,936
And it brings me so much joy and it doesn't get old if I pay a distributor in Australia

933
01:06:08,936 --> 01:06:12,236
or like an influencer in Canada or something globally.

934
01:06:12,536 --> 01:06:16,816
That is the whole reason for me as a businessman to use Bitcoin.

935
01:06:17,376 --> 01:06:22,556
Of course, I also do save on Bitcoin because it is the best store of value.

936
01:06:23,776 --> 01:06:30,016
And with, again, advanced miniscript, also inheritance is a perfectly good use case.

937
01:06:30,136 --> 01:06:36,196
Therefore, I believe it is perfectly fine to also store output descriptors data on the blockchain,

938
01:06:36,516 --> 01:06:38,236
which is also another controversial subject.

939
01:06:38,236 --> 01:06:43,216
But yeah, so your question was, is Hodling using?

940
01:06:43,676 --> 01:06:44,496
Yes, it is.

941
01:06:44,676 --> 01:06:46,236
But it should not be the only one.

942
01:06:46,556 --> 01:06:55,116
And it is perfectly fine if you're thinking like in the history of something becoming your money, you always start out with a store of value.

943
01:06:55,396 --> 01:06:57,856
And then it becomes a medium of exchange, then a unit of account.

944
01:06:58,376 --> 01:07:03,156
And these things, they're like overlapping and they don't occur globally at the same time.

945
01:07:03,156 --> 01:07:11,356
And some of us have to use this technology now to build the tools so that we are ready once it becomes more broadly adopted.

946
01:07:11,676 --> 01:07:18,576
Or when the government is putting the thumbscrews tighter, that we are not caught unprepared.

947
01:07:19,336 --> 01:07:21,876
And it's great to see in the global south.

948
01:07:21,876 --> 01:07:34,736
Like just today, I saw that in Kenya, the Tando released that like 40 million Kenyans now have essentially like an URL, just your phone number at Bitcoin.co.ke.

949
01:07:35,456 --> 01:07:45,016
In South Africa, like they have 800,000 merchants that do not know that they accept Bitcoin through money badgers, similar to like the square terminals in the US.

950
01:07:45,536 --> 01:07:46,756
And that is huge.

951
01:07:47,376 --> 01:07:51,216
So I want to see as much adoption of Bitcoin as money.

952
01:07:51,876 --> 01:08:01,616
And again, that's why I also want to see these certain soft fork proposals happen so that not people are like reliant on custodial solutions.

953
01:08:02,616 --> 01:08:05,396
Yeah, I saw the Tando thing, which was fantastic.

954
01:08:05,536 --> 01:08:16,456
And on the Square piece as well, I think that that was genuinely one of the most just bullish developments that has happened, at least since I've been in Bitcoin.

955
01:08:16,456 --> 01:08:28,596
I mean, what an incredible, like 4 million plus merchants and first it was opt-in, but now they're just like using, so you're just using Bitcoin as the rails by which you move either, you know, fiat value.

956
01:08:28,856 --> 01:08:32,256
Like if, you know, I mean, the amazing thing about Square is they have both sides of the counter, right?

957
01:08:32,676 --> 01:08:36,736
They have Cash App on the customer side and they have Square terminals on the merchant side.

958
01:08:36,736 --> 01:08:38,776
And they've got a lot of customers.

959
01:08:38,776 --> 01:08:48,656
And like just that alone, turning that ability on and using Bitcoin in such a way that it's not necessarily evident to the user unless they are actively trying to use it.

960
01:08:48,676 --> 01:08:49,456
But it's not necessarily evident.

961
01:08:49,856 --> 01:08:53,996
They're just getting lower fees, a better experience, like all these things.

962
01:08:54,116 --> 01:08:57,656
They're getting an improved experience without even realizing they're using Bitcoin.

963
01:08:58,336 --> 01:09:00,836
And I think that's a really, really powerful thing.

964
01:09:00,836 --> 01:09:11,576
Shout out to Jack and Miles and the whole teams over there at Square and Cash App, because that, to me, was one of the most bullish things I have seen in all of my time in Bitcoin.

965
01:09:12,116 --> 01:09:15,776
And again, because I do think the medium of exchange side is so important.

966
01:09:15,896 --> 01:09:17,176
I agree with you 100%.

967
01:09:17,176 --> 01:09:20,816
Holding Bitcoin, just saving in Bitcoin, that is using it as well.

968
01:09:21,556 --> 01:09:21,976
Absolutely.

969
01:09:22,336 --> 01:09:28,836
It's just an earlier part of your progression along, as you said, from store of value, medium of exchange, unit of account.

970
01:09:28,836 --> 01:09:30,816
Like, this is naturally.

971
01:09:30,996 --> 01:09:33,076
And again, you know, the future of Bitcoin is here.

972
01:09:33,176 --> 01:09:34,676
It's just not evenly distributed yet.

973
01:09:35,456 --> 01:09:37,916
But I agree also that spending Bitcoin is just fun.

974
01:09:38,196 --> 01:09:39,196
Like, you can spend and replace.

975
01:09:39,656 --> 01:09:47,316
Not that I ever would, nor that I would ever, you know, like, there's another cool thing that somebody could do, which I would never advocate for.

976
01:09:47,696 --> 01:09:49,396
I would never do it myself as well.

977
01:09:50,196 --> 01:09:56,936
But you could just engage in commerce with somebody via Bitcoin and not tell anyone else about it.

978
01:09:57,496 --> 01:09:58,156
Of course, you should.

979
01:09:58,156 --> 01:10:04,076
Is that possible as a podcaster to pay somebody in Bitcoin and not have videographic evidence of that?

980
01:10:04,876 --> 01:10:10,776
I wouldn't know because, again, I actually don't have any Bitcoin at all because of the unfortunate boating accident.

981
01:10:11,496 --> 01:10:14,096
I'm such a bad driver of a boat.

982
01:10:14,936 --> 01:10:15,796
Bang, you know.

983
01:10:16,356 --> 01:10:17,856
But you could just do that.

984
01:10:17,916 --> 01:10:23,236
You could just engage in commerce between two people, just like handing cash back and forth.

985
01:10:23,776 --> 01:10:24,776
Cash is actually great.

986
01:10:25,576 --> 01:10:26,276
Like fiat sucks.

987
01:10:26,856 --> 01:10:28,056
Cash is fantastic.

988
01:10:28,816 --> 01:10:30,896
Cash is so very private.

989
01:10:31,476 --> 01:10:32,836
It is wonderful, right?

990
01:10:33,456 --> 01:10:33,656
Yeah.

991
01:10:33,736 --> 01:10:34,716
You can do that with Bitcoin.

992
01:10:34,716 --> 01:10:37,996
If cash would be like a newly invented thing,

993
01:10:38,136 --> 01:10:40,376
they would not invent or allow it to happen.

994
01:10:40,616 --> 01:10:42,076
It is too good.

995
01:10:42,396 --> 01:10:43,936
It could not be done again.

996
01:10:44,716 --> 01:10:46,496
Without the correct precedent, they would say,

997
01:10:46,776 --> 01:10:48,376
no, no, let's not have that.

998
01:10:49,896 --> 01:10:51,716
Christine Lagarde would be out there being like,

999
01:10:51,836 --> 01:10:53,436
I think not.

1000
01:10:55,316 --> 01:10:57,596
I mean, it is, but this is where we're going also.

1001
01:10:57,596 --> 01:11:09,576
You know that, I don't want to say they, but I'll just say they generally, whether they're in Europe, whether they're in America, whether they're in China, they don't want you to use cash.

1002
01:11:10,036 --> 01:11:11,816
They want to get rid of cash.

1003
01:11:12,056 --> 01:11:15,276
They want to implement complete surveillance coins.

1004
01:11:15,356 --> 01:11:17,376
They want to implement central bank digital currencies.

1005
01:11:18,096 --> 01:11:21,156
But because that's the cash is like this within the fiat system.

1006
01:11:21,256 --> 01:11:24,776
It's the last vestige of private transaction that you have.

1007
01:11:25,136 --> 01:11:25,936
There's nothing else.

1008
01:11:25,936 --> 01:11:31,116
Anything you send through the banking system, there's no way, you know, you can't custody

1009
01:11:31,116 --> 01:11:33,536
fiat digitally.

1010
01:11:33,736 --> 01:11:34,916
It's not possible, right?

1011
01:11:35,036 --> 01:11:37,296
It necessarily needs a custodian.

1012
01:11:37,696 --> 01:11:39,956
You can custody fiat in cash.

1013
01:11:40,276 --> 01:11:43,276
Granted, it's still a promise of a central bank, right?

1014
01:11:43,336 --> 01:11:44,496
So, you know, do you actually own it?

1015
01:11:44,516 --> 01:11:45,096
Do you own anything?

1016
01:11:45,316 --> 01:11:45,556
Whatever.

1017
01:11:46,076 --> 01:11:51,036
But the point being, it's like cash is still something that you can use outside, even though

1018
01:11:51,036 --> 01:11:54,916
it's using fiat still, still outside of the surveillance panopticon.

1019
01:11:54,916 --> 01:11:59,916
that is really powerful and that's also why they need to get rid of cash so that you know they can

1020
01:11:59,916 --> 01:12:04,296
and this this is where what you see happening too i think this all goes in tandem with all the age

1021
01:12:04,296 --> 01:12:10,596
verification stuff online all of the the language about how dangerous vpns are you need to be id'd

1022
01:12:10,596 --> 01:12:14,676
before you get into any sort of social media it's to protect the kids chris it's to protect the kids

1023
01:12:14,676 --> 01:12:20,496
yes somebody think of the kids somebody please think of the kids it's either counter you know

1024
01:12:20,496 --> 01:12:23,176
How would you like it wrapped counterterrorism or protect the children?

1025
01:12:23,616 --> 01:12:25,556
But all of that dovetails together.

1026
01:12:25,556 --> 01:12:27,396
And you enter into this.

1027
01:12:27,476 --> 01:12:34,496
You very easily get to the place where you see, oh, crack down on access to physical cash or just get rid of it entirely.

1028
01:12:35,016 --> 01:12:39,256
Make any interactions that you have in the Internet traceable back to you and your real identity.

1029
01:12:39,256 --> 01:12:42,576
No longer allow pseudonymity or anonymity because everything's been ID'd.

1030
01:12:42,956 --> 01:12:47,356
Perhaps not even at the application layer, but at the ISP level.

1031
01:12:47,616 --> 01:12:49,116
That's going to be the next step, right?

1032
01:12:49,916 --> 01:12:50,936
Get rid of VPNs.

1033
01:12:50,976 --> 01:12:53,976
Make the punishment for VPNs incredibly, incredibly harsh.

1034
01:12:54,736 --> 01:12:57,716
All these things to remove any vestige of privacy that you have left.

1035
01:12:58,436 --> 01:13:04,996
And it's one of those things, once you start going down that very, very dark, black-pilled rabbit hole, you just say, oh, my God, thank God for Bitcoin.

1036
01:13:05,476 --> 01:13:08,656
Like, I'm so, you know, like, Bitcoin doesn't solve all of that.

1037
01:13:08,656 --> 01:13:14,356
You need a lot of other freedom tech tools to do that, to protect yourself, to still move along that spectrum of sovereignty.

1038
01:13:14,936 --> 01:13:16,616
But at least there are those tools.

1039
01:13:16,616 --> 01:13:22,756
And that's what, yeah, to your earlier point, go and thank a developer or zap a developer on Noster or, you know, donate to them somehow.

1040
01:13:22,856 --> 01:13:23,976
Like it makes a difference.

1041
01:13:23,976 --> 01:13:28,836
And you want these people to keep developing open source freedom tech because many of us need it already.

1042
01:13:28,896 --> 01:13:31,176
And certainly all of us will need it before too long.

1043
01:13:31,716 --> 01:13:34,376
But a lot of people just don't give a shit is the other thing.

1044
01:13:34,436 --> 01:13:36,236
They're just like, oh, I got nothing to hide.

1045
01:13:36,436 --> 01:13:39,336
You know, cool about me, bro.

1046
01:13:40,176 --> 01:13:40,496
Yeah.

1047
01:13:41,116 --> 01:13:42,536
There wasn't even a question there, Chris.

1048
01:13:42,536 --> 01:13:47,036
that was just me ranting on this because it's like i'm i'm like charlie day you know and it's

1049
01:13:47,036 --> 01:13:50,836
always sunny like looking at all these things come together i'm like don't you fucking see it guys like

1050
01:13:50,836 --> 01:13:55,916
why aren't you paying attention to this but the sad thing is most people don't care and perhaps

1051
01:13:55,916 --> 01:13:59,956
my question would be what does it take for the majority of people to actually give a shit about

1052
01:13:59,956 --> 01:14:06,496
freedom money and freedom tech and privacy tech or will the majority just never do it and it's

1053
01:14:06,496 --> 01:14:11,256
care giving a shit about these things is a fibonacci distribution or round it to a pareto

1054
01:14:11,256 --> 01:14:16,316
distribution like and it's just most people never will and that's okay i don't know yeah so that that

1055
01:14:16,316 --> 01:14:23,776
is my my my bearish uh case um most people will never and there will always be some form of fiat

1056
01:14:23,776 --> 01:14:31,416
um like the glorified hyper bitcoinization will look like that there is 20 or let's have a 21

1057
01:14:31,416 --> 01:14:38,716
of people who no longer will be willing to uh share their goods and or services for anything

1058
01:14:38,716 --> 01:14:45,676
but Bitcoin. And then like, they will use it to the fullest extent, and they will reap the benefits

1059
01:14:45,676 --> 01:14:51,436
of that. And again, it's a free and public monetary system anybody can join. But the rest,

1060
01:14:51,436 --> 01:14:56,956
they like the convenience of a CBDC, and they like the promises of, you know, oh, I first have to,

1061
01:14:56,956 --> 01:15:04,996
you know, scan my ID before I can post this tweet. And that is probably okay. I wish it weren't so,

1062
01:15:04,996 --> 01:15:10,516
but like history and everything that I have observed everywhere I've been,

1063
01:15:11,596 --> 01:15:15,996
there's always like 20, 80% that is like usually the distribution of producers

1064
01:15:16,556 --> 01:15:21,036
and consumers or people that are like a Vogue and a vacant.

1065
01:15:21,656 --> 01:15:26,256
Like I would not believe if people tell me like, oh,

1066
01:15:26,256 --> 01:15:31,416
I just came from my time machine and it's the year 2040 and everybody's using

1067
01:15:31,416 --> 01:15:34,976
Bitcoin and everything is fine and there's no more wars and we are multi-planning

1068
01:15:34,976 --> 01:16:02,116
humanitarian would be great. But maybe that's the German in me, like, I'm a little pessimistic on that. But if you don't have any expectations, like you cannot be disappointed. Therefore, you know, I'm will be gladly, you know, shown shown an opposing view in the future. But yeah, so if 20% use Bitcoin, that will be a huge win.

1069
01:16:02,116 --> 01:16:11,516
Yeah. Happiness is reality minus expectations, right? So it's a simple formula. I want to be

1070
01:16:11,516 --> 01:16:18,616
conscious of your time here. So maybe just a little speed round suggested by our friends at

1071
01:16:18,616 --> 01:16:26,276
the very storied publication, the Bitcoin Bugle. They wanted me to posit some questions about

1072
01:16:26,276 --> 01:16:29,436
should plebs be allowed to do certain things?

1073
01:16:29,876 --> 01:16:33,256
So we'll just go down a list of a couple of them here

1074
01:16:33,256 --> 01:16:36,576
and I'll just get your, you just give me a yes or no.

1075
01:16:36,896 --> 01:16:37,796
Should they be allowed to?

1076
01:16:37,856 --> 01:16:38,116
Yes.

1077
01:16:38,376 --> 01:16:39,296
Should they not be allowed to?

1078
01:16:39,336 --> 01:16:39,496
No.

1079
01:16:39,856 --> 01:16:42,596
So should plebs, the first one is obvious,

1080
01:16:42,716 --> 01:16:43,636
be allowed to have sex?

1081
01:16:44,896 --> 01:16:47,736
If it is consensual, sure.

1082
01:16:48,816 --> 01:16:50,336
Okay, I agree.

1083
01:16:50,716 --> 01:16:54,336
Should plebs be allowed to start podcasts?

1084
01:16:54,336 --> 01:17:03,796
I mean, can we have enough? Yes, yes, we can. That's a tough one. That's a tough one. Like,

1085
01:17:03,956 --> 01:17:10,876
at one point, we do have enough, but we do not have enough good ones. So maybe, you know,

1086
01:17:10,916 --> 01:17:16,716
like even a blind chicken finds, you know, so I would say yes, like, just like monkeys on a

1087
01:17:16,716 --> 01:17:22,756
typewriter, eventually, it's greatness will arise. Yeah. So yeah. The interesting thing about that

1088
01:17:22,756 --> 01:17:26,476
one though is as soon as you start as you may be a pleb but as soon as you start a podcast

1089
01:17:26,476 --> 01:17:33,816
you you become a compromised simple influencer so it's like can a pleb even start a podcast because

1090
01:17:33,816 --> 01:17:36,916
at the moment of starting it's like when you observe the photons you've got me that

1091
01:17:36,916 --> 01:17:43,376
yes as soon as you start a podcast you ascend you become a better person you become a podcaster

1092
01:17:43,376 --> 01:17:50,376
yeah all right or a quartard simple influencer you know whatever it may be but so you can't exist

1093
01:17:50,376 --> 01:17:55,116
in both states you know like it's it's it's a tricky one it's it's actually a quantum problem

1094
01:17:55,116 --> 01:18:01,616
which i hope that will crack uh with once we get some more compute the pleb paradox yes yeah

1095
01:18:01,616 --> 01:18:07,756
uh should plebs be allowed to control the thermostat so a friend of mine is an hvac

1096
01:18:07,756 --> 01:18:16,196
engineer and like he has installed hundreds of of like hvac systems in like large office spaces

1097
01:18:16,196 --> 01:18:21,056
and usually he gets calls back that people complain or like we need to change this we need

1098
01:18:21,056 --> 01:18:27,756
to change that and he has taken to installing thermostats that appear to be connected to the

1099
01:18:27,756 --> 01:18:32,956
system but they are not and then the complaints stop so if you give monkeys the choice to change

1100
01:18:32,956 --> 01:18:37,636
the temperature like it's not automatically regulated but you have like a knob like suddenly

1101
01:18:37,636 --> 01:18:44,096
people everybody is happy so that's that's actually a like a fascinating social experiment

1102
01:18:44,096 --> 01:18:48,936
that's yeah it's like all these these kind of things like oh people were complaining about the

1103
01:18:48,936 --> 01:18:54,296
closed door button on elevators or people were complaining about the the duration waiting for

1104
01:18:54,296 --> 01:18:58,416
an elevator and just putting a mirror there like all the complaints went away so if you give people

1105
01:18:58,416 --> 01:19:03,776
the illusion of a choice or like a distraction you know so yes they should be allowed to to twiddle

1106
01:19:03,776 --> 01:19:10,916
all the knobs yeah okay i like it we didn't even get a chance to talk about bitcoin knobs um but uh

1107
01:19:10,916 --> 01:19:14,676
maybe another time okay should they should pubs be allowed to ride motorcycles

1108
01:19:14,676 --> 01:19:20,236
huh i i do not know the mimetic background behind that question

1109
01:19:20,236 --> 01:19:24,556
me neither but the bugle guys made me ask they're like this one's really important

1110
01:19:24,556 --> 01:19:29,376
i mean it is such an esteemed publication so there must be some deeper meaning to that

1111
01:19:29,376 --> 01:19:35,736
um so i myself i'm too comically tall to to like ride a motorbike like

1112
01:19:35,736 --> 01:19:43,256
all the coolness that like a cafe racer would like give a regular person like goes out the

1113
01:19:43,256 --> 01:19:48,196
window when they see my my my frog legs like to the left and to the right like you would like in

1114
01:19:48,196 --> 01:19:55,876
any like curvature like i needed like i don't know assistive wheels on my on my knees like um

1115
01:19:55,876 --> 01:20:02,356
it entirely depends on your stature i would say so that's i now i kind of want to see you

1116
01:20:02,356 --> 01:20:11,036
ride a motorcycle though you know so shout out to the bitcoin racing team in in in the uk um

1117
01:20:11,036 --> 01:20:17,736
we're sponsoring uh the the mini races there shout out to chris mckenzie um i will i will

1118
01:20:17,736 --> 01:20:25,376
personally fly over on the island and i will try to fit myself into a racing mini car so you you

1119
01:20:25,376 --> 01:20:31,836
will see how my my knees protrude from the from the windows um yeah i'm our the memes are going

1120
01:20:31,836 --> 01:20:34,776
to be glorious from that I can already imagine them. And then

1121
01:20:34,816 --> 01:20:37,296
last one should blubs be allowed to vote.

1122
01:20:38,716 --> 01:20:44,496
So that that's, I think, another trick question. Like, what is

1123
01:20:44,496 --> 01:20:49,156
voting and does it change anything? So you can vote with

1124
01:20:49,156 --> 01:20:53,836
your wallet. That is the only vote that I believe has proven

1125
01:20:54,096 --> 01:20:59,316
to work. Therefore, yes, you're allowed to vote with your

1126
01:20:59,316 --> 01:21:06,496
wallet. I like that. It's that old expression. It's like, if voting made a difference, they

1127
01:21:06,496 --> 01:21:12,156
wouldn't let you do it. But we, you know, we were positing before this, this last thing I'll say,

1128
01:21:12,216 --> 01:21:18,036
and then I'll let you free from this hostage situation, but that perhaps the fall of Rome

1129
01:21:18,036 --> 01:21:23,776
was actually because they allowed the plebs to vote. And I think we've got a thesis that we're

1130
01:21:23,776 --> 01:21:29,796
cooking on on this there's going to be probably a a long you know 12 part essay series on this

1131
01:21:29,796 --> 01:21:36,056
maybe a venture capital fund started on the back of this additionally uh so there's a lot of things

1132
01:21:36,056 --> 01:21:39,856
in the work there but that's a question i think that everybody should ponder is did plebs cause

1133
01:21:39,856 --> 01:21:45,236
the fall of rome by voting yeah that's i think that's we we have to end it we have to end it

1134
01:21:45,236 --> 01:21:51,756
with that there's historic precedent look further into that the plebeian council directly led to the

1135
01:21:51,756 --> 01:21:54,276
fall of Rome. So pond on that.

1136
01:21:54,396 --> 01:21:58,316
This is, this is my new rabbit hole now, right after this, you know,

1137
01:21:58,316 --> 01:21:59,416
screw Bitcoin podcasting.

1138
01:21:59,416 --> 01:22:03,696
I'm going to be a plebeian truther now about the fall of Rome.

1139
01:22:04,256 --> 01:22:07,696
Chris, this was a great time talking with you.

1140
01:22:07,696 --> 01:22:09,656
Appreciate you sharing your time with us very much.

1141
01:22:09,936 --> 01:22:12,816
Where would you like to send people either to get your,

1142
01:22:12,936 --> 01:22:17,416
your industrial grade washers or to not get kidnapped and have fingers cut off,

1143
01:22:17,416 --> 01:22:19,896
whatever it might be, send them, send them your way.

1144
01:22:19,896 --> 01:22:36,756
Yeah, check out CEDOR, check out Biturance. Follow me on Nostar or on Twitter. You will probably put the links down there. And yeah, if you see me at the conference, get mocked, take a picture and put it to the long list of people.

1145
01:22:36,756 --> 01:22:42,276
I was loving the updates that you had from Vegas.

1146
01:22:42,556 --> 01:22:44,736
I loved all the green line tests as well.

1147
01:22:44,856 --> 01:22:47,576
Just really, really nice, really nice work.

1148
01:22:47,876 --> 01:22:50,096
I was living vicariously from afar.

1149
01:22:50,276 --> 01:22:51,016
It was excellent.

1150
01:22:52,016 --> 01:22:53,036
And I will mock you.

1151
01:22:53,316 --> 01:22:54,956
Will you be coming to BDC Prague?

1152
01:22:56,756 --> 01:22:58,696
No more conferences for me.

1153
01:22:58,796 --> 01:23:03,276
I need to stay close to home, close to the pregnant wife.

1154
01:23:03,276 --> 01:23:14,696
So again, if people want to come and meet and talk to me next, I will be at BTC++ in Vienna and afterwards in Prague, June 11th or something.

1155
01:23:14,916 --> 01:23:15,016
Yeah.

1156
01:23:15,276 --> 01:23:15,976
See you there.

1157
01:23:16,816 --> 01:23:17,456
Love it.

1158
01:23:17,556 --> 01:23:18,696
Chris, appreciate it.

1159
01:23:18,736 --> 01:23:19,896
Appreciate everybody on NoStory.

1160
01:23:19,968 --> 01:23:24,748
well thank you we did actually we had more than 10 people joining on Nostra Chris that's fantastic

1161
01:23:24,748 --> 01:23:30,528
new record he just told me that's the highest that's ever been wow wow it's true it's true

1162
01:23:30,528 --> 01:23:35,788
and thank you guys for the zaps I appreciate every sat thank you for spending bitcoin uh

1163
01:23:35,788 --> 01:23:41,448
it means a lot genuinely so appreciate you guys appreciate you Chris and we'll see you next time

1164
01:23:41,448 --> 01:23:43,168
bye bye all right

1165
01:23:49,968 --> 01:23:54,728
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast.

1166
01:23:55,388 --> 01:23:59,328
Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening,

1167
01:23:59,748 --> 01:24:03,648
and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.

1168
01:24:03,648 --> 01:24:10,328
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash walker and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin.

1169
01:24:10,928 --> 01:24:14,208
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America.

1170
01:24:14,788 --> 01:24:19,048
And find this podcast on X and Instagram at titcoinpodcast.

1171
01:24:19,048 --> 01:24:30,348
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links, head to substack.com slash at Walker America to get episodes emailed to you and head to Bitcoin podcast dot net for everything else.

1172
01:24:30,888 --> 01:24:34,448
Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant.

1173
01:24:34,948 --> 01:24:40,068
So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast.

1174
01:24:40,548 --> 01:24:43,108
Until next time, stay free.

1175
01:24:49,048 --> 01:24:49,548
Thank you.