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The fork will fail, and by failing, it will reduce the credibility of what was my camp.

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The political spectrum of the noses moved so far on the left

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that now I remain a dangerous right-wing pro-core spammer.

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Bitcoin is tolerant of crazy weirdos as long as they provide something useful for Bitcoin.

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People have wrote me in private and called me to tell me not to be friends with Luke.

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And my answer was f***ing.

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People are now telling me that if I want to be a good person, I should not be a friend with Peter Todd.

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And f*** you as well.

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And they have some ideas about Bitcoin that I find not only wrong, but like super wrong.

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Bitcoin will not die for spam either.

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Not because spam is not a problem.

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I think spam is a serious problem in Bitcoin.

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Why?

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Cut off your d***.

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I don't care, dress like a woman.

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The point is that Bitcoin had it good.

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It was the most work-resistant open-source project ever.

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That said, you specifically listed your favorite and least favorite BIPs.

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You put BIP 110 in your least favorites.

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I will explain and double down.

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Giacomo, Zucco, pizza, pasta, cappuccino in the afternoon.

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How are you doing, my friend?

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I'm fine, thank you.

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tired. It's, it's, it's been almost two years of nonstop activity with this Plan B craziness.

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And I'm starting to, I'm starting to feel it because I'm not as young as I was when I created

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BHB Milan in 2014. So now I feel it. But I'm happy. Results are great. As always with Italians,

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what we miss is a clear structure, but not results. That's, that's something that is pushing me for

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forward. Can you talk a little bit actually just about what you guys are doing at Plan B just for

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those who may not be familiar, haven't seen the stuff you guys have put out, haven't been to one

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of the Plan B forums or anything like that. There's a lot of stuff underneath your umbrella. Can you

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maybe just give folks an overview of it for those who don't know? Absolutely. Also the umbrella itself

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is not super, is a large one because there is a Plan B price model and Plan B passport. So it's a

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It's a very popular sentence and phrase in Bitcoin.

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So in 2022, I was not here.

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Right now, I'm in beautiful Lugano.

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Well, this part is not so beautiful, but the city is beautiful.

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And I was not here.

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And the company Tether, like stable coin plus a lot of Bitcoin activity,

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I already knew them because they were funding with Bitfinex RGB research and BDK research and OpenTest Times research and ProofMarchical research.

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So I knew them as funders and basically patrons of a lot of Bitcoin research and development that I was involved.

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And they basically, they were in Lugano because they physically were in Lugano.

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and they joined the city of Lugano with a memorandum of understanding, an MOU,

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called Plan B with five main topics.

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One, the creation of a network of merchants to adopt Bitcoin as a payment

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and USDT because it was stator, plus a stable coin,

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a Swiss francs stable coin of the city of Lugano,

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which basically is Swiss francs credit for a cashback mechanism.

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So that was the first pillar.

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Second pillar was to create a summer school teaching Bitcoin to young people from all around the world, getting them to Lugano to teach them Bitcoin technicals and business aspects.

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And that was the second.

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The third pillar was to acquire an historical building in Lugano and turn it into a Bitcoin hub of startups and research and development and education and everything.

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So like a Bitcoin campus in the heart of Lugano.

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The other one was to create a VC fund, basically some money to be put on top of this activity.

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And the last one was to create a conference, a world-famous conference.

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So the city of Lugano and Tether started to do stuff.

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In 2022, they did the first Plan B summer school.

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I was not there, not invited, not even as a teacher.

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it started, it went, and then they did in October of the same year, they did the first

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Plan B Forum, which was a conference about Bitcoin.

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I was invited as a speaker.

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It was very good.

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I found it very interesting because it was not hyper-technical, but there was some technical

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part.

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It was not hyper-financial, but there were shitcoiners already.

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It was not Bitcoin only, but not because there were shitcoins.

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There was one actually back then, but now we removed it.

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But because there was a lot of freedom tech, which is adhesion to Bitcoin, like peer-to-peer

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communication, encrypted communication, drones, all this kind of plan B tech.

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So tech, which is focused on resiliency, decentralization, individuals.

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So the conference started.

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Then they involved another company, Fulgur Ventures, which I also worked with because

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they invested in most of the lighting ecosystem in order to do the hub and to do the plan B

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VC fund. And then they started to do actual payment in the city. So they created the payment system.

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And the payment system actually is now comprised of more than 400 merchants that will accept Bitcoin

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for a lot of things like food, medicines, hotels. I bought my car in Bitcoin. So a lot of different

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things. Negronis. Yeah, exactly. Negronis and Spritz and many other things. So I was

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invited as a speaker in October 2022, that I was invited as a teacher in June 2023 for

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the summer school. And then they asked me, Fulgur and Teter asked me to take over some

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of the functions. Specifically, they gave the entire school program to me. So we created

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this Plan B Network, Plan B Academy, we started to do free courses, business school, tech

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school and all these other activities.

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We started a lot of university programs with the Polytechnic of Turin.

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We started a Bitcoin master in a master school, executive master school in Turin.

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We did one in Taipei and TUT.

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I'm going there to teach.

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I'm a professional now in Taipei for next month.

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So that was crazy.

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And then after that, they put me in charge to some degree of the populating the

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ecosystem of the PlanB hub, which is where I'm now.

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So bringing in startups now here we have Arc Labs, one of the two creators of the new Arc protocol. Arcade is here. We have the Swiss part of Ocean. We have the Swiss part with the main lighting developer of Ocean, which is resident here.

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We have Debify incorporated here, which is like something by Mascaidum of Odl and Baltic Only Badger.

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We have Bitvolt, which is a security startup for multisig and stuff like that.

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We have the other liquid like LKWD, which is a huge lightning operator, which one of the biggest lightning nodes.

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We have Blockstream and the Blockstream Research Institute, which is incorporated here.

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and other few startups of the Fulgur and Tether world.

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So this is also happening.

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And then the year 2025 was basically my entering this ecosystem.

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And 2024 was my entering gradually.

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2025 was the explosion.

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So what we did was create a community which went from five people at the first

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Satoshi Spritz to 400 people during the last Plan B week.

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We created a Plan B week where we had basically more than 6,000 people turnover

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during the entire week of October, of which more than 3,000 were attendees

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of the Plan B Forum of Lugano.

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The Plan B Forum itself was extended from Lugano only to Lugano and San Salvador.

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And maybe next year it will be Lugano, San Salvador and an Asian city.

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That's a possibility, but still not confirmed.

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And so that's growing and expanding.

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The Plan B VC fund is operative, is investing in a few things.

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Most notably, the Plan B VC fund and the Plan B Foundation for Nonprofit Projects was what

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I used to start to basically to bootstrap the cypher tank idea, which is coming from

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an idea of Mir and other people here in the local group.

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And you know what it is because you have been dragged into it with a lot of preparation,

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basically people.

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So if you don't know what we're talking about, go to CypherTank, Cypher like Cypherpunk,

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that's the Poon.

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And Tank like Shark Tank, it's a shark tank for Bitcoin.

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I think for us the Poon is even funnier because we say tank and punk in the same way.

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for real, I don't know, Cypher Tank or Cypher Tank, depending on how you want to put it.

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And you go on cyphertank.org, you find all the episodes and you find a great MC,

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Jonathan Mott, of course, but there is also Walker.

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And I have to say, when you look at that, you will see that the great work that the MCs,

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They both actually, jokes aside, they were both great and they were both acting of absolutely zero preparation.

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So what I told them was I put them in a room and I told them there will be something happening.

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Just go with the flow.

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And most of the things you will see is basically them being super professional with zero information and basically owning it and creating an incredible result.

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So the Cypher Tank was supposed to be a way to fund a few for-profit startups with the Plan B VC fund and a few non-profit projects with the Plan B Foundation.

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We did $850k total for six projects, three for-profit, three non-profit to know which one you have to watch it.

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and so it was a success so much so that when we finished the main point was to have an event in

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Lugano around the Plumby Forum during this Plumby Week. By the way the Plumby Week is this idea to

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create this event around the event so the forum is the forum and it's great but it's limited in

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the capacity even and so what we do is to create this week with a lot of activities around from

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going to the shooting range, a lot of Bitcoin shooting stuff. It was called Shoot to the

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Moon. And then there was a kidnapping training by Elena and her Glock team. There was institutional

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stuff about like capital markets with a block stream. There was an official technical launch

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of the live of arcade layer two.

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There was workshops to build seed designers from scratch and Jade from scratch.

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So a lot of stuff from the super technical, super nerd to the financial, a lot of incredible

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things.

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So Cypher Tank was supposed to be one of those, something we did for that week.

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But then the material was so freaking good that we decided to invest a little bit of

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money into making the production good quality, basically.

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And the result is, I mean, as an Italian and as a Bitcoiner, I'm not used to be

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involved in professional stuff.

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Usually I'm always only involved in half-ass stuff.

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And in this case, it was freaking good.

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So considering that we are now discussing a possible, like even bigger and

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stronger and longer and uncut as they say in South Park the movie second edition it was a it was a

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really great uh it is true that you guys prepared us not at all in terms of Joe and I but the the

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pitches that were there were fantastic some hilariously not so fantastic but that adds to

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the drama of course but it was I liked the concept a lot and I think it's one of those things that

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hopefully just because of the, you know, it's, it's, yeah, it was focused around, around Bitcoin

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and everything, but it's still kind of this startup vibe. It has that shark tank vibe,

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but with Bitcoiners, I hope, and I think that it has reached outside of the echo chamber a little

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bit. Cause I know that was one of the goals as well was try to make some content. That's not

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just going to sit in this small niche of Bitcoiners, but can actually appeal to a wider range of

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people with whether it be, you know, just some interesting tech, some, a little bit of a unplanned

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comedy whatever it might be so i i love the concept and for anyone who hasn't gone to either

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the lugano or the uh el salvador plan b forum it really is a great a great time uh carl and i were

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at the first ever one in lugano we're just blown away by the city of lugano also it's like you

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didn't even know what this city was until we went there and then we were like how what what is this

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magical place it's just it's it's breathtaking the negronis never stopped flowing it's like this uh

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This magical, magical city.

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But highly recommend people check it out.

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Extremely high signal as well.

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Really good programming.

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And yeah, you know, always one of the other things that I like about the programming for both El Salvador and the Lugano Forum is there's always a few spicy debates.

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There's always, they always throw in some very like kind of contentious debates on whatever the topic of the kind of topic du jour happens to be, right?

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I have to give a tip about that because actually in Madeira, so the origin of that is actually John Carvalho.

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So we were in Madeira and John was being a little bit negative.

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Sometimes he is.

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And he was like, ah, always the same.

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Incredible but true.

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He was negative.

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And he said, these panels, people always agree on everything.

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They're just circle jerks.

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So let's do a real debate like they do in debate class, like with two podiums, with stuff like that.

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and he was discussing with Madeira organizers.

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And then I just, I mean, it's open source.

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So I went to give the Plan B Forum organizers

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and John has an idea and give, loved it.

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And then we organized it straight away for Lugano

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and we kept the format.

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And I think it's been very entertaining

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and also useful to understand things

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because during debate you have to put,

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so panels, they tend to be like a little bit,

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a little bit circle jerky.

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While in debates, you can actually make your statements

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And they are useful not just to change the minds of the opponents, but also to educate the public in a dialectic way.

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So I'm also a fan of those.

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I am too.

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I think they do a good job of that.

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And hopefully, you know, the goal is like, okay, maybe you at least changed a couple people's minds.

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Or even if you didn't change any minds with your arguing of your side, maybe you at least made people think a little bit more deeply about something.

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whatever side of an issue you happen to be on, it's good to see Bitcoiners up there representing

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all ends of that spectrum and debating it and trying to, you know, work that out in public.

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That's, I think, a valuable thing that Bitcoiners do. And there's been a lot of

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working things out in public recently. I recently found out that you are now a spammer and it had

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nothing to do with Zuxbox. You're a shitcoin spammer and it actually didn't have anything

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to do with zux bucks which is really the surprising part of this do you should we get into that a

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little bit should we get because right now jacqueline i think the we were just talking

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off camera the last time i had you on the show was actually it was a little while ago it was when the

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the ordinals inscription stuff was just just popping off uh we were having a discussion about

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that i think it was pretty clear to everyone they're like hey you know you were very strongly

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the opinion like look this is this is spam this is garbage this is junk yeah it's probably going to

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get priced out as well but we should call it what it is it's it's spam you still hold that same

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opinion um but apparently now you are persona non grata in some circles maybe a good place to start

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is okay uh maybe we'll start at uh do we start with do we start with knots core do we start with

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bip 110 where's the most logical place to start for this because honestly i i i don't even know

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Now, let me start from our last debate.

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00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,120
So what I was doing back then was to be super active.

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And I think I can, everybody can check.

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I was going to have a podcast by being super active in the debate with a few positions.

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One position was spam is spam.

246
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,420
All this pseudo philosophical nonsense, what is spam anyway?

247
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:30,940
Spam is well defined, is communication in bulk, which is not welcomed or desired by the receiver in digital format.

248
00:20:31,140 --> 00:20:32,140
So that's very clear.

249
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And that was spam.

250
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:37,660
And there is no, I tried to debunk the idea, if he pays a fee, it's not spam.

251
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That's nonsense.

252
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And we explain why.

253
00:20:40,180 --> 00:20:41,420
Bitcoin cannot have spam.

254
00:20:41,820 --> 00:20:42,980
Filtering spam is censorship.

255
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:59,018
And I started to do this everywhere I went to Prague to actually I proposed to Las Vegas a speech called Ordinance are Retarded being rejected So I brought it to Prague to BTC Prague

256
00:20:59,218 --> 00:21:00,778
and I have been welcome. It was a great speech.

257
00:21:01,178 --> 00:21:07,518
Thank you. Thank you. I liked it. Then I went to Las Vegas with Unconfiscatable,

258
00:21:07,518 --> 00:21:12,798
and I gave a speech, what is this censorship, trying to debate the definition of censorship

259
00:21:12,798 --> 00:21:18,218
versus filtering. And then I went to your podcast, many other podcasts, of course, the Bitcoin

260
00:21:18,218 --> 00:21:23,038
podcast, and also some other Bitcoin podcasts in order to debate this. And I was super active.

261
00:21:23,038 --> 00:21:29,778
I think I've been even to some degree boring in how much committed I was to the specific debate.

262
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Then there was a second debate, which is now that there is spam well-defined and filtering is not

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censorship, how much practical it is to fight it with what kind of tool.

264
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And I was very, very clear that I find fighting it with filters not a problem, something that

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we can do.

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00:21:49,678 --> 00:21:55,898
It does make little sense from a point of view of network gatekeeping because of the

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way networks work.

268
00:21:57,698 --> 00:22:01,538
But it does make sense if you're a miner, because at least your blocks are not including

269
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spam.

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You may give up a little bit of money because of that, but not even that much.

271
00:22:05,318 --> 00:22:07,858
It can make sense even just to give a signal.

272
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I don't want to broadcast spam.

273
00:22:09,658 --> 00:22:12,058
Even, I mean, what happens?

274
00:22:12,058 --> 00:22:15,558
People were saying, yeah, but then you mess up your fee estimation.

275
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And I did check.

276
00:22:16,558 --> 00:22:21,758
I did run a library relay, which is Peter Todd's library that will rely any kind of shit.

277
00:22:21,758 --> 00:22:27,378
And then there is, I did, I am still running notes and I was comparing fee estimation is

278
00:22:27,378 --> 00:22:28,378
relatively cool.

279
00:22:28,378 --> 00:22:31,118
I did also compare, there is some change, of course.

280
00:22:31,118 --> 00:22:36,558
I did compare also basically propagation times and stuff like that.

281
00:22:36,558 --> 00:22:44,358
I owned some ASICs, so I was checking my miners and I did realize that it was not a problem

282
00:22:44,358 --> 00:22:47,678
to filter, not very effective, not a problem either.

283
00:22:47,678 --> 00:22:52,298
So I fought against the narrative that, oh, if you are filtering, you are censoring or

284
00:22:52,298 --> 00:22:54,918
you are destroying the network or this is an urgency.

285
00:22:54,918 --> 00:23:02,118
I was very active during the Bitcoin Core version 30 release, the pre-release debate,

286
00:23:02,478 --> 00:23:07,458
into being absolutely against what was happening, both in the merit, because the change was

287
00:23:07,458 --> 00:23:13,358
unnecessary, it was controversial, it was treated as non-controversial, it was triggering a lot of

288
00:23:13,358 --> 00:23:20,098
unnecessary animosity, and the process to go there was super sloppy, and it was a signal of a bad

289
00:23:20,098 --> 00:23:27,078
health of the core process, in my opinion, because there were PRs open, then all the negative comment

290
00:23:27,078 --> 00:23:32,658
hidden, then the PR was closed, then open just for the friends of the developers to push some hack

291
00:23:32,658 --> 00:23:37,718
and then close the game. And a lot of shenanigans and people that I knew, they were in the same

292
00:23:37,718 --> 00:23:44,478
office physically debating and gatekeeping the debate. So I was very vocally against that.

293
00:23:44,478 --> 00:23:50,278
And then the other part of the element was that people were trolling us.

294
00:23:50,658 --> 00:23:55,218
People on the other side, including my friends, core developers, they were trolling us.

295
00:23:55,358 --> 00:23:56,538
Like, just fork off.

296
00:23:56,818 --> 00:23:59,418
If it's like mempool filters, they don't work.

297
00:23:59,698 --> 00:24:02,958
If you really want to stop spam, just make it consensus.

298
00:24:03,298 --> 00:24:08,918
And I was very adamant, no, this is a provocation, but it doesn't make sense.

299
00:24:09,478 --> 00:24:13,698
Consensus is serious things with a high cost for changing it

300
00:24:13,698 --> 00:24:15,258
with a lot of opportunity cost

301
00:24:15,258 --> 00:24:17,858
because we have more serious things to do with consensus.

302
00:24:18,538 --> 00:24:20,018
And consensus is static.

303
00:24:20,398 --> 00:24:21,878
You have a few chances to change it.

304
00:24:22,018 --> 00:24:24,678
We are not Ethereum or Monero or Tron.

305
00:24:24,838 --> 00:24:26,558
We don't change the rules every month.

306
00:24:26,938 --> 00:24:29,338
We commit the rules and rules are a serious thing

307
00:24:29,338 --> 00:24:30,278
and we don't change it.

308
00:24:30,758 --> 00:24:34,178
And mempool filters are local things that we can update

309
00:24:34,178 --> 00:24:37,258
even automatically may not be a good idea, but we can.

310
00:24:37,598 --> 00:24:38,658
They are not as important.

311
00:24:38,658 --> 00:24:42,318
So for me, fighting spam, if anything, is a mempool thing.

312
00:24:42,738 --> 00:24:43,958
Consensus is not.

313
00:24:44,358 --> 00:24:47,398
And everybody on my side was agreeing with me.

314
00:24:47,678 --> 00:24:48,778
Yes, stop trolling.

315
00:24:48,958 --> 00:24:50,178
We are not forking off.

316
00:24:50,258 --> 00:24:51,098
Ha ha, you wish.

317
00:24:51,438 --> 00:24:53,098
We are keep filters on.

318
00:24:53,638 --> 00:24:54,598
But then something happened.

319
00:24:55,158 --> 00:25:01,718
And that something was mostly the movement of a few letters around from spam to XAM.

320
00:25:01,718 --> 00:25:05,298
C-A-S-A-M.

321
00:25:05,298 --> 00:25:09,398
And I started to really disagree with my own side.

322
00:25:10,078 --> 00:25:12,598
Back then it was basically a couple of people on my side.

323
00:25:12,918 --> 00:25:19,538
But most of the people seemed to agree with me that that was a weird problem to discuss.

324
00:25:19,778 --> 00:25:24,978
Mostly because if you talk spam, it's well defined.

325
00:25:25,298 --> 00:25:31,218
But even if you just reduce slightly the rate, that's already spam filtering.

326
00:25:31,398 --> 00:25:33,858
Spam filtering doesn't mean eliminating spam.

327
00:25:33,938 --> 00:25:34,578
That's impossible.

328
00:25:34,578 --> 00:25:43,798
Spam filtering is even just mitigating, even just socially signaling against or creating some social ostracism for the spammers.

329
00:25:43,978 --> 00:25:44,978
It's already good enough.

330
00:25:45,278 --> 00:25:46,758
We're not going to eradicate it.

331
00:25:47,098 --> 00:25:58,978
But with that argument, one single criminal image, let alone there is all this libertarian debate to be had about the fact that a crime is the same thing as the image of a crime.

332
00:25:58,978 --> 00:26:05,458
And so if I put there the Hiroshima bombing image, I'm culpable of Hiroshima.

333
00:26:05,578 --> 00:26:15,558
But then, of course, if we talk about specific child pornography, that's something that perverts will use in order to be somehow connected with that kind of horrible crime.

334
00:26:15,858 --> 00:26:17,618
So there's also this moral debate.

335
00:26:17,938 --> 00:26:23,598
And then there is a debate of practical tools to avoid it.

336
00:26:23,598 --> 00:26:38,638
So unlike spam, if you mitigate the rate of this kind of legal attack surface from 200 every hour to 100 every hour, you are literally doing nothing.

337
00:26:38,818 --> 00:26:41,578
So I consider this an unfixable problem.

338
00:26:42,018 --> 00:26:48,238
Some people try to straw man this position as you are denying there is a legal risk.

339
00:26:48,238 --> 00:26:57,018
No, I'm saying the legal risk is there, has always been there, and it will always be there, and there is no meaningful way to reduce this.

340
00:26:57,338 --> 00:27:02,318
Then people started to say that the difference was because of contiguity of the data.

341
00:27:02,878 --> 00:27:15,298
So if you send the transaction with this kind of criminal image, which is contiguous versus not, and I started to, there are many reasons I considered this nonsense.

342
00:27:15,298 --> 00:27:22,098
And then this escalated to basically, if you don't do something with that, you are a pedophile.

343
00:27:22,098 --> 00:27:26,578
And that's, I mean, that's, that's how to become a little bit nasty.

344
00:27:26,578 --> 00:27:28,538
And that was going around a lot.

345
00:27:28,538 --> 00:27:34,738
And then finally, people started from this, unlike spam, this was considered an existential

346
00:27:34,738 --> 00:27:35,738
emergency.

347
00:27:35,738 --> 00:27:40,578
Like if this is not fixed, we, everybody will shut down the node because otherwise everybody

348
00:27:40,578 --> 00:27:42,458
is a pedophile or something like that.

349
00:27:42,458 --> 00:27:45,618
And so it became, okay, now we fork off.

350
00:27:46,438 --> 00:27:49,218
And at this point, I was keeping my,

351
00:27:49,658 --> 00:27:51,898
so, you know, there is this meme, which is funny.

352
00:27:52,018 --> 00:27:54,858
Maybe we can find it later and you can put it into production.

353
00:27:55,518 --> 00:27:57,658
So Elon Musk also shared it.

354
00:27:57,778 --> 00:28:00,798
And it's basically something like in 2006,

355
00:28:00,798 --> 00:28:04,018
there is this guy who is a little bit left-leaning

356
00:28:04,018 --> 00:28:07,398
and then there is a left and the right wing of the political spectrum.

357
00:28:07,838 --> 00:28:09,078
The guy stays there.

358
00:28:09,338 --> 00:28:09,898
He doesn't move.

359
00:28:10,058 --> 00:28:10,918
He's still left-leaning.

360
00:28:10,918 --> 00:28:16,618
but the left, radical left, is running away to move the overton window so much

361
00:28:16,618 --> 00:28:20,918
that after a while he finds himself to be labeled far right.

362
00:28:21,238 --> 00:28:22,278
And he's still there.

363
00:28:22,678 --> 00:28:23,678
So that happened to me.

364
00:28:24,078 --> 00:28:25,718
Basically, I was a Nazi.

365
00:28:26,518 --> 00:28:30,638
I was against spam, against core behavior as a process.

366
00:28:30,638 --> 00:28:32,358
I was fully in that camp.

367
00:28:32,918 --> 00:28:38,058
And I'm repeating the same thing I was telling to you basically three years ago.

368
00:28:38,278 --> 00:28:39,678
I'm saying the same things.

369
00:28:39,678 --> 00:28:50,638
But now the political spectrum of the noses moved so far on the left that now I remain a dangerous right wing pro core spammer.

370
00:28:51,098 --> 00:28:52,298
And that's funny to see.

371
00:28:52,758 --> 00:28:55,658
There's also another meme, the one in which they push you.

372
00:28:56,058 --> 00:29:04,438
So basically there are red versus blue and the blue are pushing you and then you fall on the right with the red.

373
00:29:04,898 --> 00:29:08,458
And the blue is telling you, why are you siding with the enemy now?

374
00:29:08,458 --> 00:29:10,218
Well, I mean, fuck you.

375
00:29:10,758 --> 00:29:13,578
I'm still saying the same thing I'm saying since three years.

376
00:29:13,978 --> 00:29:16,358
Maybe I'm wrong, but you cannot pretend.

377
00:29:16,438 --> 00:29:17,598
Oh, yeah, this is the first one.

378
00:29:17,678 --> 00:29:17,958
Thank you.

379
00:29:18,278 --> 00:29:18,858
This is the first.

380
00:29:18,958 --> 00:29:19,638
So that's me.

381
00:29:20,958 --> 00:29:23,738
Sadly, in this one, nodes are left.

382
00:29:23,918 --> 00:29:30,838
I think that if you actually try to map it, you should flip it because I think nodes tend to be more right wing overall.

383
00:29:31,458 --> 00:29:35,538
And some core developers can be a little bit woke left side.

384
00:29:35,538 --> 00:29:39,218
But if you flip it, I was there, like center to right.

385
00:29:39,358 --> 00:29:41,158
Yeah, I mean, I don't like spam.

386
00:29:41,278 --> 00:29:42,498
I'm very vocal about spam.

387
00:29:42,598 --> 00:29:43,318
I don't like core.

388
00:29:43,638 --> 00:29:44,298
I'm there.

389
00:29:44,558 --> 00:29:45,298
I'm still there.

390
00:29:45,758 --> 00:29:55,298
The problem is that the center moved to my left so much that I'm now a pro-spam core V30 shield.

391
00:29:55,518 --> 00:29:58,758
By the way, I never installed Bitcoin versus 30.

392
00:29:58,998 --> 00:30:00,858
I'm still very critical about that.

393
00:30:01,158 --> 00:30:04,978
And I'm still very critical about spam and legitimization of spam and ordinals.

394
00:30:04,978 --> 00:30:10,738
I still think they are retarded. And yeah, so that's, there's that.

395
00:30:12,178 --> 00:30:18,618
I appreciate that overview. And, you know, this is, this has all been just somewhat absurd to me

396
00:30:18,618 --> 00:30:26,498
because some of the initial, like, I get the, the desire to want to reduce spam as much as possible.

397
00:30:26,498 --> 00:30:31,298
Like, I have personally never published arbitrary data on the blockchain, not even a single Bible

398
00:30:31,298 --> 00:30:37,818
verse. You know, who would do such a thing? Not even a single Bible verse for me. But it appears

399
00:30:37,818 --> 00:30:43,178
that now we've gotten to this point where, like you said, it doesn't matter that you have kept

400
00:30:43,178 --> 00:30:48,038
your same principles the entire time, have stayed steadfast in your messaging the entire time.

401
00:30:48,558 --> 00:30:54,238
You are somehow viewed as now a bad actor simply because you are not agreeing with every new leap

402
00:30:54,238 --> 00:31:00,398
that is made ideologically. And this is sort of like a, this feels like an identity politics game

403
00:31:00,398 --> 00:31:01,618
is what it feels like.

404
00:31:01,958 --> 00:31:02,698
It feels like that.

405
00:31:02,738 --> 00:31:03,198
It's the same thing.

406
00:31:03,298 --> 00:31:07,598
It's like, you know, Ukraine flag in bio, you know, BIP-110 in bio.

407
00:31:07,878 --> 00:31:09,618
Like, it's all the signaling.

408
00:31:09,858 --> 00:31:10,638
Now, you're a different story.

409
00:31:10,638 --> 00:31:14,818
You're always, you know, putting whatever insult was thrown at you recently in your bio.

410
00:31:15,158 --> 00:31:16,238
I like that usually.

411
00:31:17,438 --> 00:31:20,878
But it's just been a little strange for me.

412
00:31:21,258 --> 00:31:25,878
Yeah, because, wait, wait, what's your current moniker that you have in your…

413
00:31:25,878 --> 00:31:31,458
I think some VIP 110 guy told me I'm an ideological destroyer of Bitcoin.

414
00:31:32,458 --> 00:31:33,518
So I think now I'm an ideological.

415
00:31:33,518 --> 00:31:36,258
Ideological destroyer sounds kind of good by itself, actually.

416
00:31:36,338 --> 00:31:38,338
It sounds like a cool, like heavy metal band.

417
00:31:38,578 --> 00:31:41,438
Yeah, and just before I was a distributed authoritarian,

418
00:31:41,758 --> 00:31:45,278
which was the moniker that Gregory Maxwell was labeling

419
00:31:45,278 --> 00:31:50,778
on everybody supporting Star9 Labs' great work for Bitcoin nodes.

420
00:31:50,778 --> 00:31:54,718
So they were distributed authoritarian for filtering spam.

421
00:31:54,718 --> 00:31:59,978
Which is just a statement that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but we'll leave that aside.

422
00:32:00,678 --> 00:32:05,558
I have also, again, to clarify, I've never told anyone to run Core v30.

423
00:32:05,698 --> 00:32:08,138
I've publicly stated many times I don't run it.

424
00:32:08,418 --> 00:32:10,698
I won't be running it because I don't know.

425
00:32:10,818 --> 00:32:14,018
I've got to check what version I'm running on my node down in my basement.

426
00:32:14,598 --> 00:32:19,858
But several versions behind because Bitcoin node software is backwards compatible.

427
00:32:20,018 --> 00:32:20,678
That's the whole point.

428
00:32:20,978 --> 00:32:22,638
You don't need to update with every new version.

429
00:32:22,638 --> 00:32:23,738
You really shouldn't either.

430
00:32:23,738 --> 00:32:29,978
you know maybe wait a few years like wait see how things play out you'll be okay and so never always

431
00:32:29,978 --> 00:32:34,258
told people like look you don't have to update your nodes don't do it but simply because i think

432
00:32:34,258 --> 00:32:40,558
that fees ultimately uh you know monetary use cases price out non-monetary use cases spam

433
00:32:40,558 --> 00:32:47,318
and i haven't actively uh told people to run knots i've actually i have said run knots run

434
00:32:47,318 --> 00:32:51,498
core run whatever you want i don't care what you do it's none of my business and i don't have time

435
00:32:51,498 --> 00:32:57,558
to care about what you do. I don't run Core V30. I don't spam the blockchain with any arbitrary data.

436
00:32:57,618 --> 00:33:02,578
I don't do any of that. But because I'm not fully on the current ideological bandwagon,

437
00:33:02,658 --> 00:33:07,738
that makes me a bad actor and somehow compromised. Apparently, people are receiving VC money too,

438
00:33:08,058 --> 00:33:11,978
which I didn't know. I wish some of that, if there's any VC money flowing around, please

439
00:33:11,978 --> 00:33:18,158
send some my way. I wasn't aware of this. But for you, it's an even more extreme case,

440
00:33:18,158 --> 00:33:24,658
I think, because you have been very actively crusading more than almost anyone against the

441
00:33:24,658 --> 00:33:29,618
retardation of the JPEGs on Bitcoin. And so I'm curious to, you know, to get into kind of

442
00:33:30,478 --> 00:33:37,718
BIP 110 specifically, and the like, we can maybe go back to some of the CSAM arguments and stuff,

443
00:33:37,798 --> 00:33:42,458
too. But honestly, those arguments, they're just they're so they're so mid curve that it kind of

444
00:33:42,458 --> 00:33:45,538
hurts to talk about them. Like it's literally the government meme, how would you like this

445
00:33:45,538 --> 00:33:50,338
wrapped counterterrorism or protect the children like it's that you're just doing that meme but

446
00:33:50,338 --> 00:33:56,018
with regard to bit 110 specifically so i mean luke has said he has literally said if bitcoin will

447
00:33:56,018 --> 00:34:02,518
fail if we don't do this soft fork are you in agreement with that i'm not but to be to be

448
00:34:02,518 --> 00:34:09,238
accurate about that i i think i can say i know luke personally yeah no i know you do you've worked

449
00:34:09,238 --> 00:34:14,238
with him yeah yeah i and i appreciate him a lot and i consider him a friend and a great mind

450
00:34:14,238 --> 00:34:17,178
and look as a look vocabulary.

451
00:34:17,518 --> 00:34:21,438
And what I used to say is that his brain is a cathedral

452
00:34:21,438 --> 00:34:24,858
with a gothic one, which a lot of particular details,

453
00:34:25,278 --> 00:34:27,078
they are very consistent internally,

454
00:34:27,318 --> 00:34:30,278
but they tend to use the words in different ways.

455
00:34:30,738 --> 00:34:33,878
So for him, Bitcoin failing or Bitcoin dying

456
00:34:33,878 --> 00:34:37,458
is not what trivially we would assign

457
00:34:37,458 --> 00:34:39,238
to that kind of terminology.

458
00:34:39,658 --> 00:34:41,818
For him, if some conditions are not met,

459
00:34:42,118 --> 00:34:42,938
Bitcoin is dead.

460
00:34:42,938 --> 00:34:46,178
and usually there is internal consistency in Luke,

461
00:34:46,358 --> 00:34:47,238
which is not perfect.

462
00:34:47,418 --> 00:34:48,778
Nobody's perfect, not even him.

463
00:34:49,158 --> 00:34:50,738
And nobody's perfectly consistent.

464
00:34:50,918 --> 00:34:54,658
I think I can find inconsistency in what he says

465
00:34:54,658 --> 00:34:57,598
and what I say and I try to correct it.

466
00:34:57,958 --> 00:35:00,738
So he's not perfect, but he's more consistent than most.

467
00:35:01,098 --> 00:35:02,318
But he uses terms in a way

468
00:35:02,318 --> 00:35:04,498
which is very, very different from other people.

469
00:35:04,918 --> 00:35:06,398
So the way Luke says it,

470
00:35:06,518 --> 00:35:09,338
I think I'm almost sure he believes it

471
00:35:09,338 --> 00:35:12,118
and I'm almost sure that he may even be right

472
00:35:12,118 --> 00:35:13,458
in some of his definitions.

473
00:35:13,598 --> 00:35:16,298
It's just that his definition tends to be very, very different

474
00:35:16,298 --> 00:35:17,738
from the common sense.

475
00:35:18,198 --> 00:35:22,578
Now, what I was not expecting, actually, I was ridiculing the idea

476
00:35:22,578 --> 00:35:26,858
when some of my ideological opponents in the core field,

477
00:35:27,498 --> 00:35:29,258
they were in the core camp.

478
00:35:29,658 --> 00:35:33,818
They were telling me, but now people will ride up in Luke's idea

479
00:35:33,818 --> 00:35:36,578
that the sky is falling and we have to do something,

480
00:35:36,698 --> 00:35:40,558
we have to fork, otherwise Bitcoin is dead.

481
00:35:40,558 --> 00:35:45,798
I was minimizing and ridiculing that because I was saying, no, wait, Luke thinks that,

482
00:35:46,098 --> 00:35:50,398
but he's using Luke's speech and Luke thinks, and I know what it is,

483
00:35:50,658 --> 00:35:54,838
I know what he means, is not what you think, and people will never follow him

484
00:35:54,838 --> 00:35:58,018
because Luke was always the super useful maverick.

485
00:35:58,438 --> 00:36:05,098
And I tend to, I'm friend with Luke, and that has been, people have wrote me in private

486
00:36:05,098 --> 00:36:07,858
and called me to tell me not to be friend with Luke.

487
00:36:08,198 --> 00:36:09,278
And my answer was, fuck you.

488
00:36:09,278 --> 00:36:12,838
and now I'm also friend with Peter Todd

489
00:36:12,838 --> 00:36:16,718
and people are now calling me and writing me

490
00:36:16,718 --> 00:36:20,238
and publicly telling me that if I want to be a good person

491
00:36:20,238 --> 00:36:21,578
I should not be a friend with Peter Todd

492
00:36:21,578 --> 00:36:23,098
and fuck you as well

493
00:36:23,098 --> 00:36:26,698
and the main point is that I see them as very symmetric in my opinion

494
00:36:26,698 --> 00:36:28,718
they are different in many cases

495
00:36:28,718 --> 00:36:32,398
but I find their contribution to Bitcoin super important

496
00:36:32,398 --> 00:36:34,898
I'm personally friend with both of them

497
00:36:34,898 --> 00:36:37,878
they taught me most of the things I know about Bitcoin

498
00:36:37,878 --> 00:36:38,678
both of them

499
00:36:38,678 --> 00:36:42,618
and they have some ideas about Bitcoin that I find not only wrong,

500
00:36:42,958 --> 00:36:44,538
but like super wrong.

501
00:36:45,138 --> 00:36:49,798
I'm super strongly opposed to like Peter saying mess with the supply schedule.

502
00:36:50,618 --> 00:36:52,518
No, crazy, unacceptable, go away.

503
00:36:52,658 --> 00:36:53,638
Like that's the door.

504
00:36:54,018 --> 00:36:57,158
Luke says change users are in charge.

505
00:36:57,158 --> 00:37:02,838
If the majority of users, which is not very well defined outside of his mind,

506
00:37:03,418 --> 00:37:06,158
does want to change any rules, just change any rules.

507
00:37:06,298 --> 00:37:07,758
And I'm like, no, no, ossification.

508
00:37:07,758 --> 00:37:08,678
I don't want that.

509
00:37:08,758 --> 00:37:11,958
I want the rules to be stable and predictable for the next century.

510
00:37:12,198 --> 00:37:14,498
So I disagree vehemently with them.

511
00:37:14,698 --> 00:37:18,638
Not only in Bitcoin things, but also in some off topic of Bitcoin things.

512
00:37:18,778 --> 00:37:23,078
Like Luke thinks that probably should have, maybe I'm misrepresenting him, but I'm just

513
00:37:23,078 --> 00:37:24,258
exaggerating to make a point.

514
00:37:24,638 --> 00:37:26,278
That penalty for masturbation.

515
00:37:26,638 --> 00:37:27,218
I disagree.

516
00:37:27,218 --> 00:37:28,518
I clearly disagree.

517
00:37:29,138 --> 00:37:32,838
Or kill old Russian babies, otherwise they become terrorists.

518
00:37:32,978 --> 00:37:33,418
That's Peter.

519
00:37:33,838 --> 00:37:35,058
I freaking disagree.

520
00:37:35,638 --> 00:37:36,898
And they are both extreme.

521
00:37:36,898 --> 00:37:42,338
They're both brilliant people, but brilliant people can say crazy things because especially

522
00:37:42,338 --> 00:37:46,718
if you don't have skin in the game, especially if you are, I mean, there are many reasons.

523
00:37:46,718 --> 00:37:51,518
Maybe I also say some crazy things on some topics and that's the beauty of Bitcoin.

524
00:37:51,518 --> 00:37:58,078
Bitcoin, unlike corporate world, unlike the companies I used to work with before, Bitcoin

525
00:37:58,078 --> 00:38:03,518
is tolerant of crazy weirdos as long as they provide something useful for Bitcoin.

526
00:38:03,518 --> 00:38:08,758
These two guys are both part of the history of Bitcoin in a strong way.

527
00:38:08,758 --> 00:38:18,118
So now, to get back to your question, I don't think Bitcoin will die because of criminal

528
00:38:18,118 --> 00:38:20,478
illegal images encoded in it.

529
00:38:20,478 --> 00:38:25,818
I think that if it was going to die for that, then we have to make peace with the fact that

530
00:38:25,818 --> 00:38:26,818
it's dead.

531
00:38:26,818 --> 00:38:28,098
But I don't think it will die for that.

532
00:38:28,098 --> 00:38:33,278
But if I don't think there's any solution, I honestly wonder if there is one.

533
00:38:33,278 --> 00:38:36,718
And I honestly answer to myself, no, I don't think so.

534
00:38:37,378 --> 00:38:43,498
And I don't think that Bitcoin will die only because of contiguous

535
00:38:43,498 --> 00:38:47,278
up-return standard default child porn,

536
00:38:47,558 --> 00:38:50,278
because that would be a retarded way to die.

537
00:38:50,838 --> 00:38:53,878
And we can do something for that, but it's irrelevant,

538
00:38:54,078 --> 00:38:54,978
and it will be irrelevant.

539
00:38:55,538 --> 00:38:59,718
And people misunderstand me because it's not irrelevant in the sense

540
00:38:59,718 --> 00:39:08,098
that the judge will tell you, oh, look, even if it's contiguous, you're free to go.

541
00:39:08,458 --> 00:39:09,458
Now, it's the other way around.

542
00:39:09,858 --> 00:39:15,398
If the governments will ever try to attack Bitcoin by using this angle, which is possible,

543
00:39:15,898 --> 00:39:20,898
because as you said, terrorism, children, that's all with the package.

544
00:39:20,898 --> 00:39:29,358
So if Bitcoin will be attacked with the child abuse angle by encoding something super bad

545
00:39:29,358 --> 00:39:35,178
and horrid in the transactions somewhere, somehow,

546
00:39:35,638 --> 00:39:39,898
I think the judge will not just not let you go because it's continuous.

547
00:39:40,438 --> 00:39:42,578
He will not let you go if it's not continuous either,

548
00:39:42,778 --> 00:39:44,118
and if it's not standard either.

549
00:39:44,458 --> 00:39:47,938
There is no reason the attack should be mitigated by these nonsense arguments.

550
00:39:48,658 --> 00:39:50,578
And so Bitcoin will not die for that.

551
00:39:51,038 --> 00:39:55,198
Bitcoin will not die for spam either, not because spam is not a problem.

552
00:39:55,198 --> 00:39:58,758
I think spam is a serious problem in Bitcoin.

553
00:39:59,358 --> 00:39:59,758
Why?

554
00:39:59,958 --> 00:40:01,718
Because Bitcoin is global consensus.

555
00:40:01,718 --> 00:40:09,158
That means that every full node must download and verify every transaction on chain from

556
00:40:09,158 --> 00:40:10,378
any other full node.

557
00:40:10,958 --> 00:40:17,018
Now, the way you cannot solve this, this is an intrinsic issue with the design of Bitcoin,

558
00:40:17,318 --> 00:40:18,698
you can mitigate it.

559
00:40:18,898 --> 00:40:19,098
How?

560
00:40:19,778 --> 00:40:21,378
Well, with two things.

561
00:40:21,558 --> 00:40:22,978
One, a rate limit.

562
00:40:23,358 --> 00:40:25,018
So you limit the rate.

563
00:40:25,018 --> 00:40:28,738
so you cannot have infinite blocks or frequent blocks

564
00:40:28,738 --> 00:40:30,698
because you have proof of work adjustment,

565
00:40:31,218 --> 00:40:33,758
difficult adjustment to limit the time rate

566
00:40:33,758 --> 00:40:36,298
and you have the block size to limit the size.

567
00:40:36,898 --> 00:40:38,238
And so you have a rate limit.

568
00:40:39,038 --> 00:40:40,358
And not only you have a rate limit,

569
00:40:40,498 --> 00:40:42,878
rate limits are a spam mitigation always,

570
00:40:43,738 --> 00:40:47,358
but they are bad because they mitigate the spam,

571
00:40:47,638 --> 00:40:49,438
but they also mitigate the legit use case

572
00:40:49,438 --> 00:40:50,658
because they're limiting everything.

573
00:40:51,138 --> 00:40:52,518
In Bitcoin, you have a rate limit

574
00:40:52,518 --> 00:40:55,958
with an unfair advantage to legit use.

575
00:40:56,398 --> 00:40:57,438
What is the unfair advantage?

576
00:40:57,818 --> 00:41:00,978
The legit use, we know now, can go off-chain,

577
00:41:01,578 --> 00:41:04,858
can leave off-chain, can aggregate transaction off-chain.

578
00:41:05,698 --> 00:41:09,358
ARCs, Lightning Channels, Lightning Network in its entirety,

579
00:41:09,478 --> 00:41:12,558
even fiduciary means, like cashmins.

580
00:41:12,978 --> 00:41:15,758
So real use of Bitcoin can move off-chain.

581
00:41:16,338 --> 00:41:20,038
And I would argue that real legit use of Bitcoin

582
00:41:20,038 --> 00:41:22,818
should go off-chain as much as possible.

583
00:41:23,298 --> 00:41:23,558
Why?

584
00:41:23,838 --> 00:41:32,558
Because the blockchain is slow, expensive, censorship-prone, spam-prone, and weak on privacy.

585
00:41:32,878 --> 00:41:45,436
While the off is cheap fast censorship more you could have Lightning may even work if they cut the internet out of your country

586
00:41:45,436 --> 00:41:46,656
We did some experiment with that.

587
00:41:46,656 --> 00:41:50,896
Of course, you have security flows because you cannot close channels.

588
00:41:50,896 --> 00:41:56,736
So if your channel peer has internet and you don't, that's bad.

589
00:41:56,736 --> 00:42:01,756
But if we are both off, we cannot change the channel, but we can still transact.

590
00:42:01,756 --> 00:42:09,136
So miners can prevent transaction from entering blocks if they have 51%, but they cannot prevent

591
00:42:09,136 --> 00:42:12,036
lighting transaction from happening.

592
00:42:12,036 --> 00:42:15,256
So lighting is even more censorship resistant.

593
00:42:15,256 --> 00:42:17,376
Lighting can be more private than on chain.

594
00:42:17,376 --> 00:42:23,376
We are not as private as we could be with lighting, but there is a limited potential

595
00:42:23,376 --> 00:42:26,156
to make lighting more private because it's off chain.

596
00:42:26,156 --> 00:42:31,456
So you don't have the original scene, which is every node must the load every transaction.

597
00:42:31,456 --> 00:42:37,336
And of course, off-chain is spam resistant, unlike on-chain, because on-chain, if you

598
00:42:37,336 --> 00:42:44,576
spam, you force some, some people say it's not spam because you pay, but it is spam for

599
00:42:44,576 --> 00:42:45,576
this reason.

600
00:42:45,576 --> 00:42:51,776
You pay once, one inclusion, and then you force every single full node to read on date

601
00:42:51,776 --> 00:42:53,716
your spam forever.

602
00:42:53,716 --> 00:42:56,316
This is unlike email spam.

603
00:42:56,316 --> 00:43:00,536
In email, you send an email of spam and then you have to send another.

604
00:43:00,536 --> 00:43:06,616
nothing, but you have to send another. In Bitcoin, you spam once, paying a fixed cost, and then you

605
00:43:06,616 --> 00:43:13,736
have as a recipient, every node forever, which is very bad. So my point is that the mitigation of

606
00:43:13,736 --> 00:43:20,736
spam is moving as much as economics we can to the second layers and to off-chain, which is not just

607
00:43:20,736 --> 00:43:25,376
better for spam. It's better for spam, privacy, efficiency, speed, censorship, resistance,

608
00:43:25,376 --> 00:43:26,656
and everything else.

609
00:43:27,116 --> 00:43:31,516
Now, it's ironic that now,

610
00:43:32,036 --> 00:43:33,816
for the way the subculture works

611
00:43:33,816 --> 00:43:35,276
and political movement works,

612
00:43:36,096 --> 00:43:36,996
they tend to create,

613
00:43:37,076 --> 00:43:38,036
so political movements,

614
00:43:38,136 --> 00:43:40,036
they tend to create a package of ideas.

615
00:43:40,636 --> 00:43:43,516
If you are part of us for this issue,

616
00:43:44,156 --> 00:43:46,396
you also have to marry this other issue

617
00:43:46,396 --> 00:43:49,696
because that's the geometry of our package

618
00:43:49,696 --> 00:43:51,316
and you just have to accept it

619
00:43:51,316 --> 00:43:52,396
or you are the enemy.

620
00:43:52,816 --> 00:43:54,956
This kind of attitude created a weird situation

621
00:43:54,956 --> 00:44:05,176
in which the camp of BIP 110 right now, very well defined, tends to be against layer twos

622
00:44:05,176 --> 00:44:09,176
because it sees layer twos as spam.

623
00:44:10,316 --> 00:44:11,316
It's the opposite.

624
00:44:11,476 --> 00:44:12,676
It's the answer to spam.

625
00:44:14,236 --> 00:44:14,856
Reduce some.

626
00:44:15,816 --> 00:44:17,776
Rate limiting is a good thing.

627
00:44:18,236 --> 00:44:21,736
So much so that I agree with Luke Dasher, we should reduce the block size.

628
00:44:22,016 --> 00:44:22,956
And I really think we should.

629
00:44:22,956 --> 00:44:26,196
and I'm able to argue forever that we should.

630
00:44:26,696 --> 00:44:30,176
That's one thing we can do, reducing the block size to limit the rate

631
00:44:30,176 --> 00:44:36,736
and then move everything that we can off-chain where spam is less of a problem.

632
00:44:36,736 --> 00:44:41,116
That creates an unfair advantage because off-chain transactions,

633
00:44:41,376 --> 00:44:45,496
they can pull their fees to go on-chain together.

634
00:44:45,636 --> 00:44:50,556
So basically, if we are in an arc, me, you and another thousand people,

635
00:44:50,556 --> 00:45:00,196
we can basically pull fees together to do one single ARK round.

636
00:45:01,536 --> 00:45:07,336
So let's say one transaction on chain costs $1,000.

637
00:45:07,876 --> 00:45:12,936
1,000 ARK users can pull resources to pay $1 each.

638
00:45:13,396 --> 00:45:17,776
If you want to spam on chain, you have to pay the full block space.

639
00:45:17,776 --> 00:45:19,196
We cannot just pull together.

640
00:45:19,196 --> 00:45:25,916
Yeah, we can pull together, but then we're just sharing one single retarded JPEG and we cannot do 1,000 retarded JPEG.

641
00:45:26,076 --> 00:45:33,096
It's very hard to pull economic activity off-chain because the point of on-chain spam is to use the space.

642
00:45:33,436 --> 00:45:40,216
While monetary users, legit users, they can reduce the block space they use in order to go off-chain.

643
00:45:40,216 --> 00:45:48,096
So it's ironic that the very things that can mitigate spam are now considered bad or taboo.

644
00:45:48,796 --> 00:45:57,196
Like people in that side are becoming increasingly suspicious of lighting itself or ARX or even BitVM.

645
00:45:57,596 --> 00:46:06,436
BitVM is a culprit because it's something that may need some on-chain space for some settlement and proofs.

646
00:46:06,436 --> 00:46:11,016
But the idea of BitVM is moving Sats off-chain.

647
00:46:11,496 --> 00:46:18,316
So the idea of BitVM is in exchange for some block space to close it or to prevent fraud,

648
00:46:18,736 --> 00:46:21,536
you are removing from the blockchain a lot of activity.

649
00:46:22,276 --> 00:46:25,836
And monetary transactions, I don't like the frame.

650
00:46:26,236 --> 00:46:28,896
That was probably one of my first disagreements with the movement.

651
00:46:29,356 --> 00:46:32,996
I don't like to frame spam as opposed to monetary transactions.

652
00:46:33,556 --> 00:46:36,916
On Bitcoin layer one, monetary transactions are spam.

653
00:46:37,516 --> 00:46:42,756
Almost all of them in the sense that I don't want your transaction to be on my node, but

654
00:46:42,756 --> 00:46:45,536
I have to have it for the way Bitcoin works.

655
00:46:45,956 --> 00:46:50,596
And when Bitmain did spam attack the network, so Bitmain did a spam attack.

656
00:46:51,036 --> 00:46:52,696
The spam attack was not JPEGs.

657
00:46:53,056 --> 00:46:55,196
It was monetary transaction, fake ones.

658
00:46:55,276 --> 00:46:59,936
So they were not paying anybody, but it was fully monetary from the outside.

659
00:46:59,936 --> 00:47:05,796
The difference with retarding us is that retarding our descriptions are even are they are overt spam.

660
00:47:05,796 --> 00:47:07,796
So it's like we're not even hiding it.

661
00:47:07,796 --> 00:47:12,036
This is spam and we want you to know and we like for you to know this is spam.

662
00:47:12,036 --> 00:47:16,836
While Bitmain spam was hidden as monetary transaction, but it was still spam.

663
00:47:16,836 --> 00:47:18,976
So sorry, I'm ranting for too long.

664
00:47:18,976 --> 00:47:25,536
My main point is my answer is no, I don't think Bitcoin will die if BAP will fail.

665
00:47:25,536 --> 00:47:33,016
no no you talk well you know this is always a safe space for rants well okay there's there's

666
00:47:33,016 --> 00:47:37,996
a number of points i want to follow up on there so let me let me try to try to try to frame them

667
00:47:37,996 --> 00:47:44,456
together here i guess first question would be uh maybe a more direct one than i've got some more

668
00:47:44,456 --> 00:47:48,876
let's say like theoretical or philosophical whatever you like to call them but do you think

669
00:47:48,876 --> 00:47:53,776
that generally does the fact that bip 110 is now on the table and seems to have been adopted by the

670
00:47:53,776 --> 00:47:59,696
folks operating in this knots camp and i don't like putting people into camps but that seems to

671
00:47:59,696 --> 00:48:04,376
be the best way to describe them right now so i'm not saying this as a pejorative guys i'm just

672
00:48:04,376 --> 00:48:09,916
i'm using it as a way to label thing yeah i'm not trying to put not trying to put you in a camp

673
00:48:09,916 --> 00:48:14,276
don't like don't worry i'm not making a list i think that's what they're doing actually but uh

674
00:48:14,276 --> 00:48:22,056
does the emergence of bip 110 broadly just signal that the knots filtering didn't actually work at

675
00:48:22,056 --> 00:48:26,336
the relay level. It didn't work at that level, so it had to move to the consensus level. Because

676
00:48:26,336 --> 00:48:33,056
even Mechanic himself said he thinks consensus is the wrong place to fight spam. Yes, it does.

677
00:48:33,276 --> 00:48:40,036
But that signals an inconsistency anyway, because what we were saying back then is we know. So I

678
00:48:40,036 --> 00:48:46,576
was saying, and everybody was clapping in my side, was I know this is not good. I know that there's

679
00:48:46,576 --> 00:48:52,996
asymmetry and that the intolerant minority of liberal relay can overcompensate even a

680
00:48:52,996 --> 00:48:54,436
majority of nodes.

681
00:48:54,436 --> 00:48:59,676
I know that it's easier on a peer-to-peer network to propagate than to gatekeep.

682
00:48:59,676 --> 00:49:06,616
I know that filtering is difficult and I know that if Core doesn't support a default for

683
00:49:06,616 --> 00:49:08,996
the network, the effect will be very low.

684
00:49:08,996 --> 00:49:14,836
The effect will be signaling like a clear message, a social message, which is not very

685
00:49:14,836 --> 00:49:19,656
influential of an open network because anonymous people don't care about social messaging,

686
00:49:19,656 --> 00:49:22,676
but it can be influential in the mid space.

687
00:49:22,676 --> 00:49:27,276
For example, I don't want retarding us in conferences.

688
00:49:27,276 --> 00:49:36,596
So if you are, I cannot stop hackers and spammers and phishing attackers from operating on the

689
00:49:36,596 --> 00:49:42,136
internet, but at least I cannot invite them to stage celebrating them with lies like you

690
00:49:42,136 --> 00:49:43,336
are innovating.

691
00:49:43,336 --> 00:49:49,936
So we can at least gatekeep the social part, reject them from technical Bitcoin conference,

692
00:49:49,936 --> 00:49:52,276
physical meetups, at least that can be done.

693
00:49:52,276 --> 00:49:59,716
So filtering can give a social message and filtering can give some slight friction on

694
00:49:59,716 --> 00:50:00,716
top.

695
00:50:00,716 --> 00:50:02,096
That was our argument.

696
00:50:02,096 --> 00:50:03,376
So it's not novelty.

697
00:50:03,376 --> 00:50:06,516
You cannot say, oh, but now it's not working.

698
00:50:06,516 --> 00:50:09,536
Well, we knew, we always responded.

699
00:50:09,536 --> 00:50:10,536
It doesn't matter.

700
00:50:10,536 --> 00:50:15,616
still signaling and we are increasing the friction a little bit because, yeah, because

701
00:50:15,616 --> 00:50:17,776
we don't want to legitimize this.

702
00:50:17,776 --> 00:50:19,176
That was always the point.

703
00:50:19,176 --> 00:50:22,716
So we cannot say, oh, surprise, this is not working anymore.

704
00:50:22,716 --> 00:50:28,096
And there is another thing which is deeper, I think, is that I've seen the emergency of

705
00:50:28,096 --> 00:50:31,856
this kind of problem, psychological problem.

706
00:50:31,856 --> 00:50:37,476
So this situation should have a name, but I don't think it has a name.

707
00:50:37,476 --> 00:50:39,236
So there is a problem.

708
00:50:39,236 --> 00:50:42,296
You propose a solution, which is proportionate to the problem.

709
00:50:42,296 --> 00:50:43,956
The solution is hard.

710
00:50:43,956 --> 00:50:47,756
So you fail to implement it because life is like that.

711
00:50:47,756 --> 00:50:50,216
Sometimes you fail to implement the solution.

712
00:50:50,216 --> 00:50:55,116
Since you fail, you find the next solution, which is even harder, which is assuming even

713
00:50:55,116 --> 00:51:01,056
more things, which basically includes all the assumption of the first plus more.

714
00:51:01,056 --> 00:51:04,416
And now you think that this one will actually win.

715
00:51:04,416 --> 00:51:07,676
And if you just say you won't, you are a defeatist.

716
00:51:07,676 --> 00:51:10,616
And like you say, no, let's just go back to reason.

717
00:51:11,036 --> 00:51:12,316
No, because that didn't work.

718
00:51:12,636 --> 00:51:15,516
Actually, let me say, let me try to be super unpopular here

719
00:51:15,516 --> 00:51:18,956
because I will take the classical anarcho-capitalist

720
00:51:18,956 --> 00:51:20,716
anti-border stance,

721
00:51:20,956 --> 00:51:22,796
which is very unpopular with everybody,

722
00:51:22,956 --> 00:51:23,816
right wing especially.

723
00:51:24,336 --> 00:51:26,336
And currently even among libertarians,

724
00:51:26,516 --> 00:51:28,256
I'm a huge minority.

725
00:51:28,796 --> 00:51:32,016
So my point will be with regard with immigration.

726
00:51:32,016 --> 00:51:34,176
And I know now I'm losing any sympathies.

727
00:51:34,256 --> 00:51:34,776
I don't care.

728
00:51:35,036 --> 00:51:35,336
Fuck you.

729
00:51:35,696 --> 00:51:36,996
So I say what I think.

730
00:51:37,676 --> 00:51:53,456
So immigration is a problem because you have people coming in countries seeking for welfare parasitism and you have different cultures that can also destroy some of the cultural beauty that was there because cultural shock is always a thing.

731
00:51:53,456 --> 00:51:57,316
And then you don't, in many Western countries, you don't have the right to discriminate.

732
00:51:57,696 --> 00:52:00,436
So you're forced to do integration even if you don't want.

733
00:52:00,776 --> 00:52:06,736
And then some of these cultures are more violent and you don't have rights to self-defense because cops will take guns away from you.

734
00:52:06,736 --> 00:52:08,956
And so you have to suffer and you cannot defend yourself.

735
00:52:09,376 --> 00:52:10,416
So all these things.

736
00:52:10,736 --> 00:52:14,116
And then you have DEI policies.

737
00:52:14,436 --> 00:52:17,696
So some of these people will be hired instead of you.

738
00:52:17,856 --> 00:52:21,376
Not because they're better, but just because they are different colors or whatever.

739
00:52:21,816 --> 00:52:22,896
So this is bad.

740
00:52:23,336 --> 00:52:24,476
So what is my solution?

741
00:52:24,756 --> 00:52:26,196
Well, I know it's hard.

742
00:52:26,516 --> 00:52:28,576
But my solution is remove welfare.

743
00:52:29,656 --> 00:52:31,156
Liberalize self-defense completely.

744
00:52:31,656 --> 00:52:32,616
Liberalize exclusion.

745
00:52:32,796 --> 00:52:36,496
Even when it's stupid and racist, it should be still free in my property.

746
00:52:36,736 --> 00:52:42,376
I don't want Italians in my property because Italians, I don't like them.

747
00:52:42,736 --> 00:52:43,936
That should be free.

748
00:52:44,396 --> 00:52:45,376
So that's my solution.

749
00:52:46,036 --> 00:52:47,016
Yeah, that's hard.

750
00:52:47,096 --> 00:52:47,796
That's utopian.

751
00:52:48,076 --> 00:52:48,836
You're never...

752
00:52:48,836 --> 00:52:50,216
I know it's hard.

753
00:52:50,856 --> 00:52:53,336
I never said it was easy to implement libertarianism.

754
00:52:53,476 --> 00:52:56,496
Probably I'm going to fail, but that's the right proportional solution.

755
00:52:57,096 --> 00:53:02,716
But then you have Trump and then you have another solution which just must deport everybody.

756
00:53:03,356 --> 00:53:08,056
Man, this is just as difficult, just a little bit more,

757
00:53:08,316 --> 00:53:12,916
because you have the problem of all the low-pay workers to now deport.

758
00:53:13,176 --> 00:53:15,296
You have the problem of enforcement, which is crazy.

759
00:53:15,556 --> 00:53:17,976
You need to implement this kind of crazy surveillance,

760
00:53:18,096 --> 00:53:22,116
state surveillance with Palantir looking at faces so you can deport people.

761
00:53:22,116 --> 00:53:24,936
Then you have ICE people shooting people if they protest.

762
00:53:25,256 --> 00:53:26,956
It's crazy. It's even worse.

763
00:53:27,476 --> 00:53:30,916
It's just as difficult as the first, just as unrealistic,

764
00:53:30,916 --> 00:53:34,476
but now is even ideologically inconsistent with freedom.

765
00:53:35,016 --> 00:53:39,696
So if I say, when I debate immigration, I say that,

766
00:53:39,696 --> 00:53:43,776
and Americans especially, they say, yeah, but I am suffering

767
00:53:43,776 --> 00:53:48,776
because my block now is full of whatever, like Mexican, Pakistan,

768
00:53:49,056 --> 00:53:51,416
they are, I don't know, they are shooting, raping, whatever.

769
00:53:52,196 --> 00:53:55,896
So I'm suffering and you are proposing me to do nothing

770
00:53:55,896 --> 00:53:59,876
because what you're proposing is unrealistic.

771
00:54:00,916 --> 00:54:08,076
I know, but what I'm saying is that even the alternative you are proposing now, you are just falling for that because it seems newer.

772
00:54:08,556 --> 00:54:12,116
So the psychological trick is the first solution didn't work.

773
00:54:12,476 --> 00:54:16,016
So I was libertarian, but libertarian has let me down.

774
00:54:16,316 --> 00:54:18,116
So now I'm going full status.

775
00:54:19,016 --> 00:54:19,516
Why?

776
00:54:19,816 --> 00:54:23,396
Because it's newer and I don't feel like repeating something that's failed.

777
00:54:23,516 --> 00:54:25,556
I feel like doing something that is different.

778
00:54:25,716 --> 00:54:29,016
So this is like the opposite of the Einstein quote.

779
00:54:29,016 --> 00:54:33,096
So doing the same things over and over again, expecting new results is the definition of

780
00:54:33,096 --> 00:54:33,576
stupidity.

781
00:54:34,076 --> 00:54:36,316
But that's, sorry, Einstein, but that's stupid.

782
00:54:36,756 --> 00:54:42,336
Actually, sometimes doing something over and over again, if the alternative is even harder

783
00:54:42,336 --> 00:54:47,176
and even less realistic and also ideologically inconsistent, it's exactly the only thing

784
00:54:47,176 --> 00:54:47,596
you can do.

785
00:54:48,016 --> 00:54:52,456
Either nothing or you try again, maybe with different styles, with different scale.

786
00:54:52,796 --> 00:54:54,636
Maybe you try to scale down.

787
00:54:54,936 --> 00:54:58,176
Maybe you move and you migrate and you try with different demographics.

788
00:54:58,176 --> 00:55:07,376
Maybe you try with c-steading or crypto-anarchism online or you try with Bitcoin, you try with 3D printed guns to shoot to the cops.

789
00:55:07,596 --> 00:55:12,476
Do whatever you don't shoot to the cops unless serious 3D printed guns.

790
00:55:12,796 --> 00:55:21,736
But what I'm saying is sometimes there is this fallacy in which the ideologically consistent method failed.

791
00:55:21,736 --> 00:55:29,576
So now I will move to an ideologically inconsistent method, which will also fail and is obviously

792
00:55:29,576 --> 00:55:34,276
will also going to fail because it's assuming even higher constraints than the previous.

793
00:55:34,736 --> 00:55:40,296
But the fact that you are compromising on ideology makes you feel like you're finally

794
00:55:40,296 --> 00:55:41,836
becoming pragmatic.

795
00:55:42,716 --> 00:55:44,616
But so let's move back to Bitcoin.

796
00:55:44,616 --> 00:55:55,636
having the majority of the network filtering spam was possible but hard having core keeping a sane

797
00:55:55,636 --> 00:56:01,316
default was definitely possible not even that hard we we just need the core not to behave like

798
00:56:01,316 --> 00:56:09,976
they did it failed now making alternative to bitcoin core as a default we can i think we will

799
00:56:09,976 --> 00:56:14,436
i think i will have to do it because i think is needed and beneficial to bitcoin but that any of

800
00:56:14,436 --> 00:56:20,396
this, any of these alternatives becoming the new de facto majority so much so that the

801
00:56:20,396 --> 00:56:26,116
same default on these new things. So let's say we fork core version 29 and we make a

802
00:56:26,116 --> 00:56:34,336
new implementation and I think I will help something like that with cheering and funding.

803
00:56:34,336 --> 00:56:41,116
But then we do that. We will maybe we also become a competitor to core and not, but we

804
00:56:41,116 --> 00:56:44,836
we will never get to 90% relay, share.

805
00:56:45,156 --> 00:56:47,096
So we're still to some degree failing.

806
00:56:47,636 --> 00:56:49,316
Now, let's change consensus.

807
00:56:49,796 --> 00:56:53,096
Wait, to change consensus effectively,

808
00:56:53,596 --> 00:56:55,016
you need the same thing.

809
00:56:55,136 --> 00:56:57,956
So you need people to maintain your note.

810
00:56:58,416 --> 00:57:01,936
If we don't have core developers for my shitty alternative,

811
00:57:02,556 --> 00:57:04,276
let's imagine with a shitty alternative

812
00:57:04,276 --> 00:57:05,596
that also changes consensus.

813
00:57:05,876 --> 00:57:08,996
If Luke and two peoples are the only maintainers of notes,

814
00:57:09,356 --> 00:57:10,716
which I don't think is that bad,

815
00:57:10,716 --> 00:57:18,356
but it's a fact, BIP-1 and 10 will still be low on developers, will still be low on minors.

816
00:57:18,996 --> 00:57:24,356
Yeah, you can fantasize that there is some kind of weird game theory that will magically give you everything,

817
00:57:24,456 --> 00:57:28,956
but it's just like saying, yeah, I mean, libertarianism failed, but with Trump King,

818
00:57:29,076 --> 00:57:33,736
finally everything will be solved and magically this time around central planning will work

819
00:57:33,736 --> 00:57:37,256
and total power to police taste will not create any problem.

820
00:57:37,256 --> 00:57:40,216
I mean, yeah, this is not being pragmatic.

821
00:57:40,216 --> 00:57:52,056
This is just giving up a consistent over-optimism to some inconsistent hyper-over-optimism.

822
00:57:52,296 --> 00:57:56,636
So you're trying to do something even harder, which will still fail, but now you're also

823
00:57:56,636 --> 00:57:57,796
compromising on principle.

824
00:57:58,056 --> 00:58:04,456
In the case of Bitcoin, the principle is not libertarianism, but is fixed rules and not

825
00:58:04,456 --> 00:58:09,936
playing around with the rules, being conservative with rule changing and that kind of stuff.

826
00:58:10,216 --> 00:58:16,516
Somebody just commented in the ZapBot stream, Giacomo rants are the best, and they attached

827
00:58:16,516 --> 00:58:18,116
some sats to that message.

828
00:58:18,556 --> 00:58:21,816
So thank you for that, Zapper out there.

829
00:58:22,756 --> 00:58:24,156
Now you're financially compromised.

830
00:58:24,476 --> 00:58:25,476
That's like VC funding.

831
00:58:25,496 --> 00:58:26,016
I've been compromised.

832
00:58:26,656 --> 00:58:31,696
This, it's clearly, it's actually a Citria VC sock puppet account, I think.

833
00:58:31,796 --> 00:58:34,456
And that was, I didn't even know it, but they just compromised me.

834
00:58:35,416 --> 00:58:35,716
Okay.

835
00:58:35,856 --> 00:58:40,036
So once again, we have a number of things to unpack here, Giacomo.

836
00:58:40,216 --> 00:58:46,156
I guess maybe the first thing here is I think that a lot of the,

837
00:58:46,656 --> 00:58:49,296
there's a lot of anger out there that I'm seeing from

838
00:58:49,296 --> 00:58:53,756
and like really vehemence from this BIP 110 camp crowd, whatever.

839
00:58:54,516 --> 00:58:57,796
And I think a lot of that is due to expectation setting.

840
00:58:58,596 --> 00:59:01,276
You know, happiness is expectations minus reality, right?

841
00:59:01,716 --> 00:59:06,316
Well, if more of them would have understood what you said right there

842
00:59:06,316 --> 00:59:09,236
and that was always your position that, look, we can't get rid of spam.

843
00:59:09,536 --> 00:59:10,556
We can mitigate it, though.

844
00:59:10,816 --> 00:59:12,476
We can mitigate it, and we should mitigate it.

845
00:59:12,736 --> 00:59:14,056
We can't get rid of all of it.

846
00:59:14,696 --> 00:59:16,216
We're never going to get rid of all of it.

847
00:59:16,256 --> 00:59:17,916
We won't even necessarily get rid of most of it.

848
00:59:18,216 --> 00:59:19,096
We can get rid of some of it.

849
00:59:19,136 --> 00:59:24,876
We can make it less palatable to engage in this, both in the meat space and in cyberspace.

850
00:59:26,536 --> 00:59:35,716
I think that a lot of people had the idea that, no, if we just get enough, if I just run knots a little bit harder, then we'll get rid of spam.

851
00:59:35,716 --> 00:59:45,916
And when that obviously, you know, reality had different ideas because that's like that was not a it wasn't a realistic position for for anyone to take.

852
00:59:45,996 --> 00:59:49,556
But some people did because they were talked into this or, you know, I don't know why.

853
00:59:50,456 --> 00:59:52,796
But then it was OK, well, we need to do something else.

854
00:59:52,996 --> 00:59:55,416
And the reason for the failure, it's not us.

855
00:59:55,576 --> 00:59:57,756
It's not our unrealistic expectations.

856
00:59:57,756 --> 01:00:01,536
It's that everyone else who disagrees with us is a bad actor and who's been compromised.

857
01:00:01,536 --> 01:00:05,016
and they're Epstein and they're Mossad and they're, you know, they're, they're clearly,

858
01:00:05,156 --> 01:00:08,416
they're all shit coiners and they're spammers. It doesn't matter if they don't shit coin,

859
01:00:08,476 --> 01:00:12,496
doesn't matter if they don't spam, you know, it doesn't matter if what, it's just like they're

860
01:00:12,496 --> 01:00:18,856
anyone who disagrees with me and my increasingly extreme opinions, which keep not working,

861
01:00:19,436 --> 01:00:24,836
must be a bad actor. And this, I think is just where things like completely, any semblance of

862
01:00:24,836 --> 01:00:30,516
dialogue seems to have just completely broken down. And I'm, I'm curious too. I mean, do you

863
01:00:30,516 --> 01:00:37,136
just let's let's ask this very very blatantly do you think core v30 was an attack on bitcoin

864
01:00:37,136 --> 01:00:50,456
huh uh so let me try to frame it this way i think that um i think that the the culture wars

865
01:00:50,456 --> 01:00:57,636
and the woke movement that are the last association of the culture work uh wars is real

866
01:00:58,296 --> 01:01:01,716
The woke movement is so real that it's changing people's lives.

867
01:01:01,876 --> 01:01:03,136
It got people fired.

868
01:01:03,316 --> 01:01:09,056
It was super virulent in 2000, around a few years ago.

869
01:01:09,056 --> 01:01:12,396
It basically destroyed Star Wars, Disney, Indiana Jones.

870
01:01:12,756 --> 01:01:15,056
So it's pretty real in entertainment.

871
01:01:15,436 --> 01:01:17,836
Video games are completely destroyed.

872
01:01:18,076 --> 01:01:20,896
And even more seriously, outside of entertainment,

873
01:01:21,216 --> 01:01:24,576
entire communities and politics are destroyed by that.

874
01:01:24,816 --> 01:01:25,936
So that's a very real thing.

875
01:01:25,936 --> 01:01:35,016
And I think that the Wook movement is disproportionately represented in software and especially open source software.

876
01:01:35,416 --> 01:01:36,956
And so you see something crazy.

877
01:01:37,256 --> 01:01:42,736
If you are interested in open source software, you have seen Linus Torvald and, I mean,

878
01:01:42,856 --> 01:01:50,576
Jay Applebaum before and everything in Rust and Tor and SQLite situation.

879
01:01:50,756 --> 01:01:53,316
So something really crazy in open source software.

880
01:01:53,316 --> 01:02:03,036
Now, I think Bitcoin has been blessed to be not really that involved into that in the sense that actual.

881
01:02:03,496 --> 01:02:22,556
So we didn't have a Linus Torvald equivalent because we don't have Linus Torvald, but also because Luke for a very long time was a Sedevacantist Catholic that is saying that abortion is murder and that it should be theocracy, small kingdoms with theocratic.

882
01:02:22,556 --> 01:02:41,454
And it would have been ostracized by any open source project years ago during peak workness but it was pretty much respected in Bitcoin And so Bitcoin had it good It was the most work resistant open source project

883
01:02:41,454 --> 01:02:49,734
ever. That said, since workness in software was a problem, and when you start to see many Bitcoin

884
01:02:49,734 --> 01:02:54,794
core contributors and maintainers becoming transgender, which is not a problem.

885
01:02:54,794 --> 01:02:56,154
I mean, cut off your dick.

886
01:02:56,234 --> 01:02:56,694
I don't care.

887
01:02:56,774 --> 01:02:57,554
Dress like a woman.

888
01:02:57,894 --> 01:03:03,394
The point is that that was strongly associated with an intolerant movement in which if you

889
01:03:03,394 --> 01:03:10,294
don't use the self-appointed pronouns, you get ostracized by software because you don't

890
01:03:10,294 --> 01:03:14,474
bend the knees to some kind of crazy demand of negation of reality.

891
01:03:14,934 --> 01:03:18,414
So the two persons in question never did that.

892
01:03:18,414 --> 01:03:21,774
the two trans among recent big commentators

893
01:03:21,774 --> 01:03:24,374
that never bothered anybody about pronouns.

894
01:03:24,574 --> 01:03:25,994
So they behaved correctly.

895
01:03:26,394 --> 01:03:31,434
But when you see two of them starting to become around there,

896
01:03:31,434 --> 01:03:37,314
and then you see the conservative, super conservative,

897
01:03:37,574 --> 01:03:39,674
or even reactionary,

898
01:03:40,394 --> 01:03:42,214
Sedevacantist, traditional Catholic,

899
01:03:42,394 --> 01:03:44,094
being hosted by the development.

900
01:03:44,534 --> 01:03:45,814
Luke was always tolerated.

901
01:03:45,814 --> 01:03:49,314
even the weird things about Luke were always tolerated in Bitcoin.

902
01:03:49,734 --> 01:03:51,254
Now he's completely out.

903
01:03:51,354 --> 01:03:53,134
He's out of the physical meetups.

904
01:03:53,314 --> 01:03:56,274
He's out of the security disclosure list.

905
01:03:56,434 --> 01:03:57,974
He's out of the BIP repository.

906
01:03:58,034 --> 01:04:00,354
Not yet, but he will be hosted by the BIP repository.

907
01:04:00,674 --> 01:04:03,874
He's out of the mailing list or the translation project.

908
01:04:04,434 --> 01:04:07,574
Every single of those things has an excuse like,

909
01:04:07,714 --> 01:04:08,834
yeah, but Luke, this, this.

910
01:04:09,254 --> 01:04:11,114
But the reality is that he was tolerated before.

911
01:04:11,294 --> 01:04:11,974
He's not now.

912
01:04:11,974 --> 01:04:17,614
Then you see something that people mock me sometimes when I say that,

913
01:04:17,814 --> 01:04:21,054
but because it's not serious and I agree.

914
01:04:21,374 --> 01:04:23,754
But it's a symbol, it's something, it's a sign.

915
01:04:24,234 --> 01:04:27,494
So a few years ago, somebody came to GitHub and said,

916
01:04:27,934 --> 01:04:33,594
blacklist in Bitcoin is racist, so you should change it with blocklist,

917
01:04:33,934 --> 01:04:38,814
which was stupid because the word block is something else in Bitcoin

918
01:04:38,814 --> 01:04:40,874
and blacklist is not racist.

919
01:04:40,874 --> 01:04:41,934
So it was stupid.

920
01:04:42,334 --> 01:04:46,974
But one core developer is to merge that because he said, I don't want drama.

921
01:04:47,174 --> 01:04:47,934
I'm scared.

922
01:04:48,374 --> 01:04:51,514
So he was scared of the woke mob and he just is to merge it.

923
01:04:51,834 --> 01:04:53,114
So that's a sign.

924
01:04:53,314 --> 01:04:54,554
I don't care for that.

925
01:04:54,954 --> 01:04:59,454
We people protested that and they were banned from GitHub for protesting.

926
01:04:59,814 --> 01:05:00,574
That's a sign.

927
01:05:01,214 --> 01:05:02,274
That's a little bit.

928
01:05:02,274 --> 01:05:03,434
Bitcoin still has it good.

929
01:05:03,794 --> 01:05:05,694
The woke problem, but is there.

930
01:05:05,694 --> 01:05:13,834
And then you see Bitcoin Core developers basically grooming two girls with ethnic characteristics to become maintainers.

931
01:05:14,534 --> 01:05:15,834
And you see that it's very urgent.

932
01:05:16,094 --> 01:05:18,234
And maybe the public doesn't see it.

933
01:05:18,534 --> 01:05:19,434
But I saw it.

934
01:05:19,734 --> 01:05:28,874
That two girls that were strongly shitcoin leaning became maintainer because we needed girl maintainers because of diversity quotas.

935
01:05:29,034 --> 01:05:31,154
And we needed ethnic girls maintainers.

936
01:05:31,614 --> 01:05:34,754
The first one, then that failed, then the other went in.

937
01:05:34,754 --> 01:05:37,474
So you see that, that's a work problem.

938
01:05:37,794 --> 01:05:39,734
That doesn't mean that the girl is not good.

939
01:05:39,994 --> 01:05:43,134
That doesn't mean that she's by definition not competent.

940
01:05:43,494 --> 01:05:48,454
The problem with quotas is that they create actually a negative bias against the quota.

941
01:05:48,454 --> 01:05:53,394
Because if now you know that you have to have a girl, you become suspicious of the reason there is a girl.

942
01:05:53,394 --> 01:06:02,634
But then when that specific girl also becomes the flag of the spam relativization movement,

943
01:06:02,634 --> 01:06:06,514
like whatever, NFTs are like whatever.

944
01:06:07,154 --> 01:06:12,294
And when that merges, you start to be concerned about the wokeism.

945
01:06:12,914 --> 01:06:17,554
So that could be considered one potential attack.

946
01:06:17,714 --> 01:06:22,854
And I'm happy that the community is vigilant and reactive, maybe overreactive.

947
01:06:22,994 --> 01:06:27,534
But still, I think that if you, I mean, worst case scenario,

948
01:06:27,534 --> 01:06:30,874
we are just being

949
01:06:30,874 --> 01:06:32,554
hassles with the developer

950
01:06:32,554 --> 01:06:34,094
I mean okay cry harder

951
01:06:34,094 --> 01:06:36,834
Bitcoin must survive even if some

952
01:06:36,834 --> 01:06:38,554
people online are hassles

953
01:06:38,554 --> 01:06:41,054
developers. If the success of Bitcoin depends

954
01:06:41,054 --> 01:06:42,914
on nobody on the internet

955
01:06:42,914 --> 01:06:44,134
being hassles with developers

956
01:06:44,134 --> 01:06:46,914
well good luck Bitcoin, you're basically dead

957
01:06:46,914 --> 01:06:48,634
so I mean I'm sorry

958
01:06:48,634 --> 01:06:50,434
personally I don't think I've never

959
01:06:50,434 --> 01:06:51,654
I have ever been

960
01:06:51,654 --> 01:06:54,494
particularly nasty with people

961
01:06:54,494 --> 01:06:56,574
and if I have I apologize

962
01:06:56,574 --> 01:06:57,414
but

963
01:06:57,534 --> 01:07:03,654
I think it's good that Bitcoiner were resilient to this kind of ideology, potentially creeping in.

964
01:07:03,994 --> 01:07:05,214
Again, I want to stress this.

965
01:07:05,834 --> 01:07:08,034
It was Bitcoin had it good so far.

966
01:07:08,534 --> 01:07:14,314
Maybe so good that the woke virus wave already is fading away already in the rest of the world.

967
01:07:14,314 --> 01:07:18,414
Maybe we also will have the pendulum in which we are back to Nazism.

968
01:07:18,774 --> 01:07:20,354
So we have the opposite problem.

969
01:07:20,354 --> 01:07:23,574
and maybe we just made it out

970
01:07:23,574 --> 01:07:26,134
and wokeism is decreasing in media,

971
01:07:26,674 --> 01:07:30,514
in advertising and jeans advertising

972
01:07:30,514 --> 01:07:31,134
and whatever.

973
01:07:31,314 --> 01:07:32,214
It's getting better.

974
01:07:32,594 --> 01:07:34,514
So maybe we are out,

975
01:07:34,754 --> 01:07:36,914
but that was an element that was not made up.

976
01:07:37,214 --> 01:07:37,994
It was not zero.

977
01:07:38,254 --> 01:07:39,854
It didn't impact Bitcoin seriously,

978
01:07:40,134 --> 01:07:41,194
but it could have.

979
01:07:41,574 --> 01:07:44,134
And I think it was legit to have some kind of vigilance

980
01:07:44,134 --> 01:07:45,714
and reaction about that.

981
01:07:46,054 --> 01:07:46,614
Then there is second.

982
01:07:46,774 --> 01:07:48,574
So there was a woke attack on Bitcoin.

983
01:07:48,954 --> 01:07:49,254
Maybe.

984
01:07:49,514 --> 01:07:50,294
It's a small one.

985
01:07:50,354 --> 01:07:55,654
potential, some signs better to kill it in its infancy.

986
01:07:56,234 --> 01:07:58,714
Then the second point is elitism.

987
01:07:59,034 --> 01:08:00,274
This is not something woke.

988
01:08:00,454 --> 01:08:01,414
It's not something recent.

989
01:08:01,554 --> 01:08:02,534
This is something eternal.

990
01:08:03,114 --> 01:08:09,394
Whenever you have a tool or a subculture either, in both cases, you create a natural elite

991
01:08:09,394 --> 01:08:12,714
of people that care and they can become self-referential.

992
01:08:12,894 --> 01:08:13,794
They can live in a bubble.

993
01:08:14,194 --> 01:08:15,874
They can become gatekeepers.

994
01:08:15,874 --> 01:08:19,094
They can become elitist, a snob.

995
01:08:19,094 --> 01:08:20,914
that freaking happens

996
01:08:20,914 --> 01:08:21,794
that's inevitable

997
01:08:21,794 --> 01:08:23,534
Bitcoin core

998
01:08:23,534 --> 01:08:27,514
so Bitcoin maximalists can become that

999
01:08:27,514 --> 01:08:28,894
we have been accused to be that

1000
01:08:28,894 --> 01:08:31,154
maybe whatever cry harder

1001
01:08:31,154 --> 01:08:33,354
Bitcoin developers can also become that

1002
01:08:33,354 --> 01:08:36,194
and we non-developers

1003
01:08:36,194 --> 01:08:38,594
we have to either learn to code

1004
01:08:38,594 --> 01:08:40,494
or fund other developers

1005
01:08:40,494 --> 01:08:41,954
or cry harder ourselves

1006
01:08:41,954 --> 01:08:43,374
that's the way it goes

1007
01:08:43,374 --> 01:08:44,754
and I think that happened

1008
01:08:44,754 --> 01:08:46,294
is that an attack on Bitcoin?

1009
01:08:46,294 --> 01:08:53,354
could be, but I don't even think it's an organized attack.

1010
01:08:53,434 --> 01:08:57,254
It's just a natural evolution, this kind of elitism of technical people.

1011
01:08:57,474 --> 01:08:58,694
It's just something natural.

1012
01:08:59,534 --> 01:09:02,694
Then on top of that, you have another thing,

1013
01:09:02,894 --> 01:09:07,414
which is basically the geographical and cultural concentration

1014
01:09:07,414 --> 01:09:09,774
of Bitcoin development.

1015
01:09:09,774 --> 01:09:13,654
Just like we had ASHRAE concentrating in China and the US,

1016
01:09:13,654 --> 01:09:19,214
development concentrated in two physical offices, one in the US, one in the UK.

1017
01:09:19,614 --> 01:09:24,934
And most of the maintainers are basically in those offices under a couple of companies.

1018
01:09:25,554 --> 01:09:26,654
Is this an attack on Bitcoin?

1019
01:09:27,694 --> 01:09:36,054
I think people that created those two companies are generally trying to help Bitcoin by funding

1020
01:09:36,054 --> 01:09:36,374
Bitcoin.

1021
01:09:36,374 --> 01:09:41,634
I think they are the best intention, but it did create an increase in the monoculture.

1022
01:09:41,634 --> 01:09:48,634
The fact that it was UK and US and not Italy or not because I'm proud of Italy, but-

1023
01:09:48,634 --> 01:09:50,634
Sounds a little nationalistic of you.

1024
01:09:50,634 --> 01:09:53,634
It may seem nationalistic, but I'm Swiss for tax reasons.

1025
01:09:53,634 --> 01:09:58,634
But anyway, what I mean is that Italian culture has a lot of problems, a lot of problems.

1026
01:09:58,634 --> 01:10:02,634
I'm not really super proud of Italy in many regards, but there are a couple of good things.

1027
01:10:02,634 --> 01:10:04,634
One is food, of course.

1028
01:10:04,634 --> 01:10:08,634
The other one is that we are pretty impervious to work ideology.

1029
01:10:08,634 --> 01:10:13,894
ideology. We are, I mean, we really cannot become politically correct. We are incapable

1030
01:10:13,894 --> 01:10:20,074
of political correctness. We are Berlusconi. I mean, we cannot be that. So we are pretty

1031
01:10:20,074 --> 01:10:28,154
resistant to political correctness. So UK and US, especially big cities, London, New

1032
01:10:28,154 --> 01:10:34,194
York, San Francisco, yeah, that's basically the epicenter of the disease. So you had,

1033
01:10:34,194 --> 01:10:39,454
Basically, you had geographical concentration plus technical elitism

1034
01:10:39,454 --> 01:10:43,194
reinforcing woke penetration in Bitcoin.

1035
01:10:43,594 --> 01:10:47,074
Still to the point that it was not, for me, a serious practical problem,

1036
01:10:47,354 --> 01:10:50,214
but it was a symbol of something potentially scary.

1037
01:10:50,774 --> 01:10:53,454
Then, on top of this, you have shitcoins.

1038
01:10:53,914 --> 01:10:56,574
Shitcoins are an attack on Bitcoin.

1039
01:10:56,574 --> 01:11:14,874
Unfortunately, inclusivity and DEI, they did end up attracting shitcoiners and maybe the woke virus is connected with some relativism, like whatever, which can be seen as a legitimization of shitcoins.

1040
01:11:14,874 --> 01:11:23,594
So I think there are several issues that are independent, completely independent, but they did converge into something that looks like a coordinated attack.

1041
01:11:23,674 --> 01:11:40,974
I don't think it is. To be very clear, I think that I was also, this was probably something that got connected with the CSAM discussion and helped my cancellation from the VIP 110 camp, which I will oppose anyway because I'm against the fork.

1042
01:11:40,974 --> 01:12:02,394
Jeffrey Epstein. So I think that Epstein funding Joy Ito in MIT was a super normal thing. I mean, this guy lived off influence spheres. And especially Epstein was specialized in not only massages, but also in new technologies.

1043
01:12:02,394 --> 01:12:09,094
He was selectively trying to fund and interfere and get influence in new technologies, many of them.

1044
01:12:09,494 --> 01:12:11,854
Bitcoin was an emerging technology that was interesting.

1045
01:12:12,294 --> 01:12:22,994
So it's absolutely normal and if not super nice that he told MIT DCI to do Bitcoin stuff.

1046
01:12:23,734 --> 01:12:24,994
Ito received money.

1047
01:12:25,134 --> 01:12:26,534
Ito used the money.

1048
01:12:26,534 --> 01:12:31,274
and the money ended up in the greatest Bitcoin,

1049
01:12:31,634 --> 01:12:33,634
the first big Bitcoin startup ever,

1050
01:12:33,914 --> 01:12:34,834
which was Blockstream.

1051
01:12:35,154 --> 01:12:36,234
And the money entered there.

1052
01:12:36,614 --> 01:12:39,134
But then Blockstream was against Stellar

1053
01:12:39,134 --> 01:12:41,634
and Ito's money went also into Stellar,

1054
01:12:41,714 --> 01:12:42,554
which was a shitcoin.

1055
01:12:43,014 --> 01:12:44,094
And so Blockstream people say,

1056
01:12:44,194 --> 01:12:44,994
no, this isn't compatible.

1057
01:12:45,434 --> 01:12:46,534
So the money went out.

1058
01:12:47,034 --> 01:12:48,534
When the money was given,

1059
01:12:49,654 --> 01:12:51,754
Ito, so an MIT guy,

1060
01:12:51,754 --> 01:12:54,534
which was a good Epson pal,

1061
01:12:54,534 --> 01:12:57,414
also invited over Austin Hill,

1062
01:12:57,614 --> 01:12:59,674
which was the co-founder of Bloxstream, the business guy.

1063
01:13:00,154 --> 01:13:03,714
Austin Hill brought in the poster boy of Bloxstream, Adam Beck,

1064
01:13:03,874 --> 01:13:07,054
quoted in the white paper, and Adam went.

1065
01:13:07,634 --> 01:13:12,454
Now, I'm not even as nerd as Adam.

1066
01:13:12,774 --> 01:13:14,614
I'm almost the business guy sometimes.

1067
01:13:15,094 --> 01:13:17,974
But if one, if in any startup I know,

1068
01:13:18,574 --> 01:13:21,114
if the business guy tells the tech guy,

1069
01:13:21,394 --> 01:13:23,594
come to be the poster boy for the company

1070
01:13:23,594 --> 01:13:28,494
in a freaking island, the tech guy will not even remember,

1071
01:13:28,714 --> 01:13:31,174
let alone Google, but even remember the name

1072
01:13:31,174 --> 01:13:34,834
of the hand-shaking opportunity, a photo of opportunity.

1073
01:13:34,914 --> 01:13:38,814
You just freaking go on any kind of helicopter island

1074
01:13:38,814 --> 01:13:46,814
and you don't go to examine any, like, federal report

1075
01:13:47,354 --> 01:13:50,654
on underage prostitution of four years before.

1076
01:13:50,774 --> 01:13:52,154
You don't.

1077
01:13:52,154 --> 01:13:53,214
I mean, maybe you do.

1078
01:13:53,594 --> 01:13:59,934
So in 2014, I have to say it because it's the honest thing to say.

1079
01:14:00,434 --> 01:14:02,634
Sorry if that changes your opinion of me.

1080
01:14:03,054 --> 01:14:10,214
But if in 2014, I was trying to do Bitcoin things, I just had quit Accenture the year before,

1081
01:14:10,554 --> 01:14:11,974
and I was trying to do Bitcoin startups.

1082
01:14:12,494 --> 01:14:16,514
And if somebody told me, come to teach Bitcoin to a billionaire on an island,

1083
01:14:16,634 --> 01:14:23,114
the last thing I do is to even write down the name, let alone doing a deep search on the name.

1084
01:14:23,114 --> 01:14:23,754
I just go.

1085
01:14:24,134 --> 01:14:25,074
And I'm not the nerd.

1086
01:14:25,374 --> 01:14:29,914
I'm the business guy, the one that should be aware of potential compromises

1087
01:14:29,914 --> 01:14:37,514
in terms of public relations or optics, let alone Adam freaking back.

1088
01:14:37,994 --> 01:14:40,994
He just would go to speak about Bitcoin, wherever.

1089
01:14:41,194 --> 01:14:41,854
He still does.

1090
01:14:41,954 --> 01:14:45,334
Like, if you call Adam today, Adam, we have to talk Bitcoin,

1091
01:14:46,014 --> 01:14:49,634
and you just throw him a random Chinese name, he will just go.

1092
01:14:50,154 --> 01:14:51,194
It's Adam back.

1093
01:14:51,194 --> 01:14:58,834
and so that was also another uh sorry i'm running again i think i completely okay okay let's go okay

1094
01:14:58,834 --> 01:15:03,794
no you you've tied in a lot of threat okay so and actually giacomo i i did specifically ask i didn't

1095
01:15:03,794 --> 01:15:09,294
actually ask if core was an attack i asked if core v30 specifically and the uh changing well

1096
01:15:09,294 --> 01:15:14,434
bringing the op return limit to just be in line with consensus because that's really what it did

1097
01:15:14,434 --> 01:15:19,374
right consensus there is no like there it's a relay policy thing it wasn't a consensus rule that

1098
01:15:19,374 --> 01:15:27,434
that be at that level in a word was core v30 specifically an attack in the way that it's being

1099
01:15:27,434 --> 01:15:33,634
framed or is this just the natural result of some of the things that you described earlier happening

1100
01:15:33,634 --> 01:15:36,854
like culminating do you know what i mean and i'm going to ask you to be brief on this one because

1101
01:15:36,854 --> 01:15:41,294
i want to get into another one after this yeah the latter is i think it just is not a coordinated

1102
01:15:41,294 --> 01:15:49,814
attack is the final coming together of all these elements.

1103
01:15:50,334 --> 01:15:56,334
Technical elities, some level of disrespect to the users due to technical things,

1104
01:15:57,254 --> 01:16:01,154
the geographical concentration of people living in a bubble and what is not

1105
01:16:01,154 --> 01:16:05,254
controversial to them cannot be controversial to the users, and some

1106
01:16:05,254 --> 01:16:11,674
wokeness that made, they created sympathy for shitcoins, scams, and spam like, well,

1107
01:16:12,074 --> 01:16:19,134
the wokeness created selection process, which got one shitcoin-friendly developer in a very

1108
01:16:19,134 --> 01:16:19,954
influential position.

1109
01:16:20,514 --> 01:16:25,134
And in order to defend her, they had to defend a shitcoin-friendly position.

1110
01:16:27,314 --> 01:16:28,254
Fair enough.

1111
01:16:28,514 --> 01:16:29,714
That was succinct, Giacomo.

1112
01:16:29,834 --> 01:16:31,014
See, you Italians can do it.

1113
01:16:31,334 --> 01:16:33,194
You know, it's just, it's not in your nature.

1114
01:16:33,194 --> 01:16:34,874
But okay, next question.

1115
01:16:35,254 --> 01:16:41,474
You posted a tweet that was, I mean, probably sacrilegious and blasphemous,

1116
01:16:41,954 --> 01:16:46,134
but you specifically listed your favorite and least favorite BIPs.

1117
01:16:46,434 --> 01:16:48,694
You put BIP110 in your least favorites.

1118
01:16:48,694 --> 01:16:50,794
Would you like to publicly atone for that,

1119
01:16:50,894 --> 01:16:53,974
or would you like to explain your rationale for it, perhaps?

1120
01:16:54,534 --> 01:16:56,154
I will explain and double down.

1121
01:16:56,614 --> 01:16:59,674
There are many people like on BIP110.

1122
01:17:00,254 --> 01:17:04,494
The first I don't like is the fact that he includes an activation method

1123
01:17:04,494 --> 01:17:06,034
even without consensus.

1124
01:17:06,314 --> 01:17:09,954
That means that it will activate with a relatively low

1125
01:17:09,954 --> 01:17:12,734
ASH rate readiness threshold, 55%,

1126
01:17:12,734 --> 01:17:15,034
as opposed to the traditional 95%.

1127
01:17:15,034 --> 01:17:17,814
That's already something bad, a bad precedent.

1128
01:17:18,294 --> 01:17:20,314
And if it doesn't meet that threshold,

1129
01:17:20,754 --> 01:17:23,294
it will still activate regardless, which I think is bad.

1130
01:17:23,294 --> 01:17:24,674
I think it was bad.

1131
01:17:25,254 --> 01:17:29,574
So let's exclude for a moment UASF on Segwit.

1132
01:17:29,854 --> 01:17:32,934
I think this was bad when drive chain proponents

1133
01:17:32,934 --> 01:17:34,794
said that he wanted to do it.

1134
01:17:35,014 --> 01:17:36,354
I spoke against them.

1135
01:17:36,854 --> 01:17:37,514
It was bad.

1136
01:17:38,034 --> 01:17:39,174
And I don't dislike,

1137
01:17:39,574 --> 01:17:41,734
I do dislike some elements of dry shame,

1138
01:17:41,794 --> 01:17:42,334
but not so much.

1139
01:17:42,754 --> 01:17:44,694
I think it was bad when Jeremy Rubin

1140
01:17:44,694 --> 01:17:45,534
trying to do it,

1141
01:17:45,654 --> 01:17:47,774
which by the way was a huge absent friend.

1142
01:17:48,034 --> 01:17:49,414
He tried to do it with CTV.

1143
01:17:49,734 --> 01:17:50,734
I was against that.

1144
01:17:51,254 --> 01:17:54,214
And I like CTV, especially now.

1145
01:17:54,294 --> 01:17:55,094
I was a little bit skeptical.

1146
01:17:55,254 --> 01:17:57,154
Now I'm very sold,

1147
01:17:57,614 --> 01:17:58,634
but it was bad.

1148
01:17:58,634 --> 01:18:00,154
You don't activate something,

1149
01:18:00,514 --> 01:18:01,634
risking a split,

1150
01:18:01,634 --> 01:18:05,514
because the fact that rules don't change

1151
01:18:05,514 --> 01:18:07,314
are more important for money

1152
01:18:07,314 --> 01:18:09,694
than the fact that rules are particularly good.

1153
01:18:10,074 --> 01:18:13,434
So an important fact of money and networks in general,

1154
01:18:13,594 --> 01:18:14,474
but especially money,

1155
01:18:14,654 --> 01:18:16,574
is that you don't change the rule arbitrarily.

1156
01:18:17,094 --> 01:18:20,594
And so you do that when there is total full consensus.

1157
01:18:20,774 --> 01:18:23,454
If that means that we cannot have arbitrary features anymore,

1158
01:18:23,934 --> 01:18:24,774
well, cry harder.

1159
01:18:27,074 --> 01:18:29,534
Consistency and reliability of the base layer

1160
01:18:29,534 --> 01:18:31,214
is more important than your feature,

1161
01:18:31,214 --> 01:18:38,794
including CTV. So it's totally natural for me that BIP 110 is just like that. The activation part,

1162
01:18:38,894 --> 01:18:43,794
I dislike it. If you do the same without the activation part, I can be way more tolerant.

1163
01:18:44,314 --> 01:18:49,094
But then again, why the activation part is justified? Because everything is presented as

1164
01:18:49,094 --> 01:18:56,494
an emergency. Like skies falling. And if we don't do something, Bitcoin is over. This could be true

1165
01:18:56,494 --> 01:19:03,074
someday. So I'm not saying that it's impossible that we ever come to some kind of existential

1166
01:19:03,074 --> 01:19:06,894
moment in which either you do something or Bitcoin is dead. That can happen. I realize

1167
01:19:06,894 --> 01:19:13,874
it can happen. But as a prima facie heuristic, sorry for the pardon me French, as a first

1168
01:19:13,874 --> 01:19:20,294
reaction, I'm skeptical. So it's like a commercial thing. You come to my house, buy this or you

1169
01:19:20,294 --> 01:19:24,174
die tomorrow and you only have one meal to buy and to decide, wait, wait, wait, red flag.

1170
01:19:24,174 --> 01:19:24,814
Red flag.

1171
01:19:25,274 --> 01:19:27,174
If you try to push an emergency on me, red flag.

1172
01:19:27,434 --> 01:19:30,414
That doesn't mean that I know for a fact the emergency doesn't exist.

1173
01:19:30,774 --> 01:19:33,234
I'm saying I'm being skeptical.

1174
01:19:33,894 --> 01:19:39,954
And my skepticism was not addressed to my satisfaction by the answer.

1175
01:19:40,354 --> 01:19:41,674
What is the emergency exactly?

1176
01:19:42,194 --> 01:19:42,674
Spam.

1177
01:19:42,894 --> 01:19:46,654
Well, no, actually, it's going down from the retardant era, not up.

1178
01:19:47,114 --> 01:19:49,754
Well, it's encoding of illegal images.

1179
01:19:49,754 --> 01:19:54,134
Well, you cannot stop one illegal image to be encoded ever.

1180
01:19:54,254 --> 01:19:55,274
So it was always a risk.

1181
01:19:55,714 --> 01:19:57,234
Let's use Tor for our nodes.

1182
01:19:57,354 --> 01:19:59,494
Let's try to lobby in order to protect us.

1183
01:19:59,554 --> 01:20:00,194
Let's do something.

1184
01:20:00,374 --> 01:20:01,654
But we cannot stop it.

1185
01:20:02,334 --> 01:20:03,214
Yeah, but it's continuous.

1186
01:20:03,854 --> 01:20:05,154
What does it even mean?

1187
01:20:05,414 --> 01:20:07,314
By the way, we can do a continuous transaction.

1188
01:20:07,754 --> 01:20:10,574
It will not be continuous in Luke Dashier's terminology,

1189
01:20:10,714 --> 01:20:13,974
but it will be in any other person's terminology anyway.

1190
01:20:14,354 --> 01:20:16,174
So I see the emergency.

1191
01:20:16,394 --> 01:20:17,094
I dislike it.

1192
01:20:17,094 --> 01:20:20,334
the emergency is a justification for the activation mechanism

1193
01:20:20,334 --> 01:20:24,434
and the emergency was actually the explicit reason

1194
01:20:24,434 --> 01:20:27,274
so legal compliance was the explicit reason

1195
01:20:27,274 --> 01:20:29,954
mentioned in the first draft of the fork

1196
01:20:29,954 --> 01:20:31,494
now it has been removed

1197
01:20:31,494 --> 01:20:34,474
okay but still the same full proposal

1198
01:20:34,474 --> 01:20:37,274
started with legal compliance as an emergency

1199
01:20:37,274 --> 01:20:38,514
that has been removed

1200
01:20:38,514 --> 01:20:41,234
I'm sorry I dislike that

1201
01:20:41,234 --> 01:20:44,854
it makes it not even CTV was as bad

1202
01:20:44,854 --> 01:20:49,074
not even BAP 100 like big block BAPs.

1203
01:20:49,274 --> 01:20:53,374
At least they have children are dying emergency.

1204
01:20:53,534 --> 01:20:56,614
Roger Ver was like sky is falling, children are dying.

1205
01:20:56,814 --> 01:20:57,994
That was bad for me.

1206
01:20:58,434 --> 01:21:00,614
Samson was mocking that I think with reason

1207
01:21:00,614 --> 01:21:03,554
because when you try emotional manipulation to create an emergency

1208
01:21:03,554 --> 01:21:07,174
even if you believe it that's the red flag.

1209
01:21:07,934 --> 01:21:09,874
And so there is the children are dying

1210
01:21:09,874 --> 01:21:14,574
or are being raped by Epsin or whatever kind of emergency

1211
01:21:14,574 --> 01:21:17,134
if we don't do something, so let's do something immediately.

1212
01:21:17,534 --> 01:21:20,814
And then you remove that reference from the fork,

1213
01:21:20,874 --> 01:21:22,514
but it's still the same fork with the same timeline,

1214
01:21:22,854 --> 01:21:23,734
with the same emergency.

1215
01:21:24,534 --> 01:21:25,754
That is temporary.

1216
01:21:26,294 --> 01:21:28,694
Now, some people claim that temporaries of fork

1217
01:21:28,694 --> 01:21:30,194
never exist in Bitcoin, that's false.

1218
01:21:31,094 --> 01:21:33,054
But the fact that it's temporary

1219
01:21:33,054 --> 01:21:35,594
only match with the fake emergency,

1220
01:21:35,934 --> 01:21:37,474
which I consider a fake emergency.

1221
01:21:37,954 --> 01:21:40,094
Otherwise, if you think it's a good fork,

1222
01:21:40,094 --> 01:21:41,434
just make it permanent.

1223
01:21:41,614 --> 01:21:43,534
And then we can R fork if we don't like it.

1224
01:21:43,534 --> 01:21:44,934
But why temporary?

1225
01:21:45,534 --> 01:21:49,734
So you're trying to please look who consistently thinks that's an emergency.

1226
01:21:50,214 --> 01:21:52,274
And I know why I think so, and I disagree.

1227
01:21:52,694 --> 01:21:56,294
And you try to please people that understand it's not an emergency,

1228
01:21:56,734 --> 01:21:58,814
at least in the sense we will use for the term.

1229
01:21:59,154 --> 01:21:59,834
So that's bad.

1230
01:22:00,234 --> 01:22:04,114
Then you go into that, and you see that the other thing that I dislike

1231
01:22:04,114 --> 01:22:08,774
is that it's a missed opportunity because changing consensus is becoming harder and harder.

1232
01:22:08,774 --> 01:22:13,214
I don't even know if it's possible anymore except for existential bugs fixing.

1233
01:22:13,534 --> 01:22:18,494
And with existential bugs fixing, I don't mean Luke doesn't like it.

1234
01:22:18,894 --> 01:22:20,814
I mean the node stops running.

1235
01:22:21,274 --> 01:22:28,454
If the node keeps running and you just have somebody shutting it down because now the image is contiguous,

1236
01:22:29,254 --> 01:22:30,614
that's not what I'm talking about.

1237
01:22:30,674 --> 01:22:34,154
I'm talking about bug that will kill the network, technically speaking.

1238
01:22:34,734 --> 01:22:40,714
So, except for that, maybe we don't have many chances to do a fork anymore.

1239
01:22:40,934 --> 01:22:42,734
Maybe not any.

1240
01:22:42,734 --> 01:22:44,934
Maybe some few last.

1241
01:22:45,734 --> 01:22:51,494
This feels like a temporary emergency led fork, which is not really an emergency.

1242
01:22:51,974 --> 01:22:56,554
It's a waste of scarce coordination space for a good fork.

1243
01:22:57,354 --> 01:23:01,934
CTV may be a waste as well, because even if it's good, it may not be the best.

1244
01:23:02,434 --> 01:23:05,314
So I was against CTV activation, not just because it was unsafe,

1245
01:23:05,754 --> 01:23:10,674
but because it was potentially wasting some better opportunity to do a fork,

1246
01:23:10,674 --> 01:23:17,114
work, including a spam addressing fork, because for example, within the good, within a good

1247
01:23:17,114 --> 01:23:19,934
framework, block size reduction, I think it could be a good

1248
01:23:19,992 --> 01:23:21,472
for limiting spam.

1249
01:23:22,132 --> 01:23:23,572
Alone, it will never pass.

1250
01:23:23,992 --> 01:23:25,832
But maybe with Cheez-A,

1251
01:23:25,972 --> 01:23:27,792
in some contexts, it may pass.

1252
01:23:28,492 --> 01:23:30,712
Covenants may also reduce spam.

1253
01:23:31,092 --> 01:23:31,312
Why?

1254
01:23:31,712 --> 01:23:33,732
Because covenants help the UX

1255
01:23:33,732 --> 01:23:35,872
and the safety of off-chain transaction.

1256
01:23:36,332 --> 01:23:39,212
And if transaction can pull fees off-chain,

1257
01:23:39,332 --> 01:23:42,272
they can overcompete and outcompete spam,

1258
01:23:43,272 --> 01:23:44,812
which is also a scam, on-chain.

1259
01:23:45,432 --> 01:23:48,472
So, you see, it's a waste.

1260
01:23:48,472 --> 01:23:51,152
And then there are some sloppy things.

1261
01:23:51,272 --> 01:24:03,092
For example, the alleged emergency is op return versus 30, version 30 in core, which is now unbounded in policy as much as in consensus.

1262
01:24:03,812 --> 01:24:06,132
Even if, even that, so let me say something.

1263
01:24:06,372 --> 01:24:10,952
V30 is very sloppy because they try to unbound it, making it like consensus.

1264
01:24:11,252 --> 01:24:12,792
But then that was controversial.

1265
01:24:13,112 --> 01:24:13,592
It was.

1266
01:24:13,592 --> 01:24:19,252
So they close the PR, then they open another one, which says, well, let's not unbound it.

1267
01:24:19,612 --> 01:24:24,212
Let's just put it 100, well, basically, let's just put in a super huge number.

1268
01:24:25,052 --> 01:24:31,452
It was at least the first PR was controversial, but it was at least consistent, like remove

1269
01:24:31,452 --> 01:24:32,512
and make it like consensus.

1270
01:24:32,892 --> 01:24:38,892
The second, which was Easter merge, was equally controversial, but this time around, it doesn't

1271
01:24:38,892 --> 01:24:39,772
even make sense.

1272
01:24:39,892 --> 01:24:42,132
Like just at this point, just freaking remove the limit.

1273
01:24:42,132 --> 01:24:43,552
That limit is a joke.

1274
01:24:43,592 --> 01:24:46,012
It's almost, I would consider it almost a provocation.

1275
01:24:46,112 --> 01:24:50,832
I don't know if it's intentional, but seems like a power flex, like a gaslighting power

1276
01:24:50,832 --> 01:24:51,112
flex.

1277
01:24:51,252 --> 01:24:52,772
So I want to remove it.

1278
01:24:52,892 --> 01:24:53,632
That's controversial.

1279
01:24:54,132 --> 01:24:57,692
I still remove it, but I pretend I don't because I put a super huge number.

1280
01:24:57,852 --> 01:24:59,772
Now it's not controversial, it's emerging.

1281
01:25:00,252 --> 01:25:01,712
So V30 was bad.

1282
01:25:02,352 --> 01:25:09,792
The reaction is also bad because if the emergency is op return, contiguous data, which is sanctioned

1283
01:25:09,792 --> 01:25:12,792
by the community because up return has been accepted or whatever.

1284
01:25:13,192 --> 01:25:18,512
If that's a problem, then you are saying that inscriptions were not an emergency

1285
01:25:18,512 --> 01:25:21,272
because they're not contiguous and not accepted there in this plot.

1286
01:25:21,272 --> 01:25:27,752
So why are you fixing inscriptions with the same fork if the emergency is up return?

1287
01:25:28,032 --> 01:25:28,912
Just fix up return.

1288
01:25:29,212 --> 01:25:31,072
Be consistent with the emergency narrative.

1289
01:25:31,412 --> 01:25:36,032
No, we fix up return and, well, let's just pack also some inscription patch.

1290
01:25:36,032 --> 01:25:41,132
But no, you say that the emergency was the contiguous CSAM.

1291
01:25:41,552 --> 01:25:42,532
So it's confused.

1292
01:25:42,852 --> 01:25:44,432
It's all over the place.

1293
01:25:44,552 --> 01:25:46,932
It's many inconsistent narrative put together.

1294
01:25:47,172 --> 01:25:51,112
So I really dislike the fork because even if I don't like spam,

1295
01:25:51,472 --> 01:25:53,132
and I certainly don't like CSAM,

1296
01:25:53,752 --> 01:25:58,792
and I don't like scam, all this iteration of the letters,

1297
01:25:59,492 --> 01:26:03,372
and ordinals are spam and also scam,

1298
01:26:03,372 --> 01:26:08,372
and, well, inscriptions are spam, ordinals are scam, and sysam is sysam.

1299
01:26:08,652 --> 01:26:14,412
It's all bad, but this solution is very bad for several points.

1300
01:26:14,492 --> 01:26:18,232
And that was the topic on the cake, which I don't think is super serious,

1301
01:26:18,312 --> 01:26:20,552
but it's annoying. It's another ugly thing.

1302
01:26:20,952 --> 01:26:24,792
So in order to stop inscriptions, this version of inscriptions,

1303
01:26:25,452 --> 01:26:30,212
you cut out op-if in the Tapscript.

1304
01:26:30,212 --> 01:26:37,952
Opif is not something necessary, but it is the standard output of some Miniscript policies.

1305
01:26:38,452 --> 01:26:43,572
So some wallets, including Nunchuck, may output an Opif.

1306
01:26:44,732 --> 01:26:46,992
You don't freaking break it.

1307
01:26:47,792 --> 01:26:54,492
You may, I mean, if Opif didn't exist, the Miniscript will not output it,

1308
01:26:54,852 --> 01:26:56,072
then Nunchuck will not adopt it.

1309
01:26:56,072 --> 01:27:09,222
But now that the case If there not a real reason to break EOS case with consensus change don break it Nobody will lose money because of that realistically

1310
01:27:09,942 --> 01:27:11,502
It's not really an emergency.

1311
01:27:11,682 --> 01:27:12,302
It's not a problem.

1312
01:27:12,402 --> 01:27:13,622
It's not confiscation.

1313
01:27:13,862 --> 01:27:20,702
Also because in worst case scenario, it would be freezing because then after one year, the funds would be unconfiscated because it's temporary.

1314
01:27:21,522 --> 01:27:24,902
But still, it's, yeah.

1315
01:27:24,902 --> 01:27:27,802
So yeah, I really liked this BIP.

1316
01:27:28,802 --> 01:27:35,302
The framing of it, the initial like legal compliance framing is just such a statist cuck thing to do, to be honest.

1317
01:27:35,602 --> 01:27:41,862
Like that's its own form of wokeism is like statism is its own form of wokeism just under like a different wrapper a little bit.

1318
01:27:42,242 --> 01:27:42,882
Where it's the same thing.

1319
01:27:42,942 --> 01:27:44,262
It's like we have to pander to this.

1320
01:27:44,382 --> 01:27:54,122
Like except instead of pandering to blue haired commies, you're pandering to the totalitarian state, which is like, you know, a different flavor of the same sort of retardation.

1321
01:27:54,122 --> 01:27:59,482
but I appreciate the breakdown there and and also like the little bit of the technical side as well

1322
01:27:59,482 --> 01:28:04,422
because I think that is important for people I mean what do you think the the realistic chances

1323
01:28:04,422 --> 01:28:09,502
are of this thing like I guess what's the what do you think is actually going to to happen when we

1324
01:28:09,502 --> 01:28:13,262
get to this and I would also on the temporary side it's like okay it's temporary it's like

1325
01:28:13,262 --> 01:28:17,082
there's nothing you know what's that old saying that there's nothing so permanent as a temporary

1326
01:28:17,082 --> 01:28:20,842
government decree it's like maybe the same applies here I don't know but what do you think is the

1327
01:28:20,842 --> 01:28:27,162
likely outcome of all of this once this, you know, enough nodes start signaling for BIP110?

1328
01:28:27,942 --> 01:28:38,842
I think that not enough ASHRAE. I think ASHRAE will not signal in 55% until the very last minute.

1329
01:28:39,542 --> 01:28:45,222
Then it may happen. I think that it will just, I think, so let me put this way. I think the

1330
01:28:45,222 --> 01:28:52,182
signaling will be so low and any kind of future markets will signal such a low interest for

1331
01:28:52,182 --> 01:28:58,722
this post fork coin that signal in mining will stay very, very low.

1332
01:28:59,402 --> 01:29:06,382
If there is any chance that this doesn't happen, because for example, I don't know, anything,

1333
01:29:06,702 --> 01:29:12,042
a very good campaign, something new, if I'm wrong, I think what will happen is that if

1334
01:29:12,042 --> 01:29:17,502
If there is any signaling at all, people will signal it overwhelmingly because it's just

1335
01:29:17,502 --> 01:29:20,542
better not to be forked off for a lack of signaling.

1336
01:29:20,542 --> 01:29:26,042
If you can just flip a bite, you do it because it costs you nothing and it keeps on the same

1337
01:29:26,042 --> 01:29:27,042
side.

1338
01:29:27,042 --> 01:29:31,882
So either there is no signaling at all, which I will assign a probability of 60% like we

1339
01:29:31,882 --> 01:29:33,562
have one block on ocean.

1340
01:29:33,562 --> 01:29:39,422
My friend Bob will do something, maybe it goes to 2%, but we're so low that nobody cares.

1341
01:29:39,422 --> 01:29:41,442
The date passes and nothing happens.

1342
01:29:41,442 --> 01:29:48,242
Otherwise, if the day approaches of the mandatory signaling and there is, let's say, 30%, 35%,

1343
01:29:48,242 --> 01:29:54,002
which I don't think there will be, then it may very well go to 60 or 70 because it costs

1344
01:29:54,002 --> 01:29:54,362
nothing.

1345
01:29:54,802 --> 01:29:59,582
Then for after the mandatory activation of the signaling, everybody will signal.

1346
01:30:00,042 --> 01:30:03,662
Then there will be the mandatory enforcement of the rule in this case.

1347
01:30:03,722 --> 01:30:05,762
In the first case, everything failed already.

1348
01:30:06,122 --> 01:30:08,722
In this case, there will be the mandatory activation of the rules.

1349
01:30:09,262 --> 01:30:15,422
Now, I think most miners will produce BIP 110 compliant blocks for a while.

1350
01:30:15,742 --> 01:30:16,022
Why?

1351
01:30:16,442 --> 01:30:18,282
Because it doesn't cost you much to do that.

1352
01:30:18,282 --> 01:30:24,322
You just give up a little bit of fees from the remaining retardant subscription, which are very few and up return.

1353
01:30:24,462 --> 01:30:31,042
So it's a very low cost to mine a compliant block and a very low risk because at least you don't get forked off in case they win.

1354
01:30:31,542 --> 01:30:35,742
But then this is the first challenge, create compliant blocks.

1355
01:30:35,742 --> 01:30:50,612
But the second challenge is if the best chain include a non blocks which will happen will arrive somebody even just to piss off look or even just because it the government to create the the discord somebody will create a

1356
01:30:50,612 --> 01:30:57,572
block not with sysam but not necessarily but just non-compliant and then another block on top and

1357
01:30:57,572 --> 01:31:02,452
then another maybe it doesn't happen immediately maybe after a month maybe after but before one year

1358
01:31:02,452 --> 01:31:08,432
three blocks will be created which are not compliance or one non-compliant blocks with

1359
01:31:08,432 --> 01:31:14,352
two blocks on top which may also be compliant now what the BIP is asking you is not just create a

1360
01:31:14,352 --> 01:31:21,872
compliant block but ignore the biggest chain and go with the minority and no rational minor will do

1361
01:31:21,872 --> 01:31:29,812
that or one ideologic minor you know one single guy on ocean with an ASIC maybe Bob but I think

1362
01:31:29,812 --> 01:31:34,832
Bob will start to say, maybe it's better not, because you don't want your block, your

1363
01:31:34,832 --> 01:31:36,152
work to be completely wasted.

1364
01:31:36,692 --> 01:31:40,752
So when there will be a moment to actually enforce it, it will fail.

1365
01:31:41,132 --> 01:31:46,752
So in the first scenario I mentioned, the hash rate signaling never goes close to 3%

1366
01:31:46,752 --> 01:31:48,912
or 4%, which I think is more likely.

1367
01:31:49,332 --> 01:31:55,812
And the second scenario, what you have is basically that the main chain goes on like

1368
01:31:55,812 --> 01:31:58,132
nothing was there, like ignoring the fall completely.

1369
01:31:58,132 --> 01:32:01,872
My node will follow the strongest chain, the best chain.

1370
01:32:02,412 --> 01:32:08,052
And then I think what will happen is that some people very committed with this fight,

1371
01:32:08,492 --> 01:32:12,932
including Saddle Luke and Mechanic and Crater and a few others,

1372
01:32:13,332 --> 01:32:17,132
the leaders of this revolt, they will...

1373
01:32:17,132 --> 01:32:22,432
So Luke will probably not ever run a Bitcoin node again.

1374
01:32:22,552 --> 01:32:25,712
It will remain on a node doing nothing because it's consistent

1375
01:32:25,712 --> 01:32:27,252
and it is not there for profit.

1376
01:32:27,252 --> 01:32:29,152
He's not there for money either.

1377
01:32:29,772 --> 01:32:31,532
Luke is there for the ideal, and I know him.

1378
01:32:31,812 --> 01:32:35,372
And he will probably be cut off of Bitcoin entirely on a technical sense.

1379
01:32:35,532 --> 01:32:40,392
And that would be bad for Bitcoin because Luke is an important dissenting voice in Bitcoin.

1380
01:32:40,952 --> 01:32:42,572
So Luke is self-cancel, technically.

1381
01:32:43,192 --> 01:32:50,552
Maybe other people, like most of the other BIP 110 people, like my friend Knut, my friend

1382
01:32:50,552 --> 01:32:57,072
hodl out, I think they will just accept the fact and go back to Bitcoin node.

1383
01:32:57,272 --> 01:33:02,732
But then their credibility will be diminished for a while, which is also bad for Bitcoin

1384
01:33:02,732 --> 01:33:07,192
because Knut is a freaking good person and a freaking good brain.

1385
01:33:07,692 --> 01:33:13,132
And his point, Bitcoin was based on good intentions and it would be reduced in terms of credibility

1386
01:33:13,132 --> 01:33:13,872
and commitment.

1387
01:33:14,412 --> 01:33:19,912
Both of them, I think both hodl out and Knut, they will just accept the loss and go over

1388
01:33:19,912 --> 01:33:21,252
and they say, oh, too bad.

1389
01:33:21,632 --> 01:33:22,652
Maybe we'll try again.

1390
01:33:23,112 --> 01:33:25,632
But their credibility and their enthusiasm for Bitcoin

1391
01:33:25,632 --> 01:33:27,452
will result diminishing,

1392
01:33:27,572 --> 01:33:29,232
which I think will be bad for Bitcoin

1393
01:33:29,232 --> 01:33:31,112
because they are right on many things,

1394
01:33:31,252 --> 01:33:32,932
right to be critics about core,

1395
01:33:33,312 --> 01:33:34,612
right to be critics about spam,

1396
01:33:35,052 --> 01:33:37,132
and many things they say are right.

1397
01:33:37,472 --> 01:33:38,992
So I think the out cut will be bad

1398
01:33:38,992 --> 01:33:41,472
because I think the fork will fail.

1399
01:33:41,992 --> 01:33:43,172
And by failing,

1400
01:33:43,532 --> 01:33:47,012
it will reduce the credibility of what was my camp,

1401
01:33:47,012 --> 01:33:53,212
which was fuck spam and fuck core process when it fails for some reasons.

1402
01:33:53,772 --> 01:33:55,672
And so, yeah, that's basically my fear.

1403
01:33:55,932 --> 01:33:56,792
I cannot change it.

1404
01:33:57,532 --> 01:33:59,872
What I can do is voice opposition to that

1405
01:33:59,872 --> 01:34:05,352
because at least my credibility and enthusiasm will be unwavering

1406
01:34:05,352 --> 01:34:09,512
and I can keep the fight until they recover from the loss.

1407
01:34:10,752 --> 01:34:14,352
No one could ever accuse your enthusiasm of wavering, Giacomo.

1408
01:34:14,352 --> 01:34:17,292
It's one of the reasons I always appreciate hearing from you.

1409
01:34:17,292 --> 01:34:18,792
And I've kept you a little bit long now.

1410
01:34:18,792 --> 01:34:33,482
So I want to get you out of here only a little bit late but you Italian so you used to being late I think it fine right yeah they have a cappuccino at 8 p oh oh boy oh my god i gonna have to edit that out that uh that is true blasphemy uh you know uh from from coming from lugano there

1411
01:34:33,482 --> 01:34:38,742
uh even though you're not uh not quite in italy you're almost in italy there but uh thank you for

1412
01:34:38,742 --> 01:34:43,362
this giacomo this was i'm glad we got a chance i hope that people if you listen to this again we

1413
01:34:43,362 --> 01:34:47,062
talked at the very start about debates maybe you change a couple people's minds or at least make

1414
01:34:47,062 --> 01:34:51,282
them just think more deeply. It's not that your position that you're holding is necessarily wrong,

1415
01:34:51,442 --> 01:34:58,822
but every position could benefit from more nuance. I know I always can try to bring it. And so I

1416
01:34:58,822 --> 01:35:02,682
appreciate you coming on here and giving your perspective on this because I think that you have,

1417
01:35:03,082 --> 01:35:09,742
again, nobody can doubt your track record in terms of being a crusader against spam for a long time.

1418
01:35:10,262 --> 01:35:14,442
Nobody can doubt that. You have the receipts. I've got the receipts. Multiple conferences and

1419
01:35:14,442 --> 01:35:18,062
podcasts around the world have the receipts. And so I think people should take what you say

1420
01:35:18,062 --> 01:35:23,162
seriously in this regard, because I know that your heart is in the right place. We're both in

1421
01:35:23,162 --> 01:35:27,762
agreement that, you know, ordinals are retarded and, you know, spam is retarded. It's just a

1422
01:35:27,762 --> 01:35:32,722
question of what's the best way to actually deal with this in a realistic way. And so, yeah, I think

1423
01:35:32,722 --> 01:35:36,482
this is, I hope this conversation is helpful for folks out there. I want to thank everybody

1424
01:35:36,482 --> 01:35:43,182
who zapped this conversation, 2,349 sats on Noster live streaming this. So thank you guys.

1425
01:35:43,182 --> 01:35:46,602
use Bitcoin as money. You can use it as money just by holding it. Yes, that's a store of value,

1426
01:35:46,722 --> 01:35:52,662
but Bitcoin is a great medium of exchange too, and you should use it as one. Lightning is not

1427
01:35:52,662 --> 01:35:57,982
spam. It's just sending sats in a really good way. So Giacomo, where do you want to send folks?

1428
01:35:58,422 --> 01:36:03,462
Where can they find out more about Plan B? CypherTank.org for the show, which they should

1429
01:36:03,462 --> 01:36:06,242
definitely go and check out. Where can they go to find out more information about Plan B?

1430
01:36:06,722 --> 01:36:12,202
Plan B.network is a vitrina site with a lot of information about the forum, the academy.

1431
01:36:12,202 --> 01:36:14,282
so usually it's plan b.something

1432
01:36:14,282 --> 01:36:15,202
plan b.academy

1433
01:36:15,202 --> 01:36:16,262
there is some free courses

1434
01:36:16,262 --> 01:36:17,902
but plan b.network

1435
01:36:17,902 --> 01:36:20,082
you use that to go around

1436
01:36:20,082 --> 01:36:21,002
to plan b.lugano

1437
01:36:21,002 --> 01:36:22,242
local initiatives

1438
01:36:22,242 --> 01:36:23,102
cypher tank

1439
01:36:23,102 --> 01:36:23,862
and everything else

1440
01:36:23,862 --> 01:36:25,842
and you are

1441
01:36:25,842 --> 01:36:27,622
you're just at Giacomo Zucco

1442
01:36:27,622 --> 01:36:29,162
on X right

1443
01:36:29,162 --> 01:36:30,022
for those who want to

1444
01:36:30,022 --> 01:36:31,242
follow your rants

1445
01:36:31,242 --> 01:36:32,102
and call you a

1446
01:36:32,102 --> 01:36:33,842
call you a bad actor

1447
01:36:33,842 --> 01:36:34,582
and things like that

1448
01:36:34,582 --> 01:36:35,542
please direct all of your

1449
01:36:35,542 --> 01:36:36,642
hate mail towards Giacomo

1450
01:36:36,642 --> 01:36:37,682
and do whatever

1451
01:36:37,682 --> 01:36:38,882
nasty thing you want to do

1452
01:36:38,882 --> 01:36:39,422
oh boy

1453
01:36:39,422 --> 01:36:41,242
be careful what you wish for man

1454
01:36:41,242 --> 01:36:42,802
You got to be careful these days.

1455
01:36:43,402 --> 01:36:44,882
Well, Giacomo, this was a pleasure.

1456
01:36:45,102 --> 01:36:45,962
Always appreciate it.

1457
01:36:46,022 --> 01:36:47,122
I'm going to go have a cappuccino.

1458
01:36:47,242 --> 01:36:49,562
It's the afternoon now, so I can finally have a cappuccino.

1459
01:36:50,002 --> 01:36:51,922
You enjoy your late night cappuccino.

1460
01:36:52,102 --> 01:36:54,782
We'll both be burned at the stake for being blasphemous.

1461
01:36:55,082 --> 01:36:56,502
But always good to talk to you, my friend.

1462
01:36:56,582 --> 01:36:57,162
Great to see you.

1463
01:36:57,362 --> 01:36:57,882
Good company.

1464
01:36:58,182 --> 01:36:58,642
See you soon.

1465
01:36:58,802 --> 01:36:58,962
Bye.

1466
01:37:06,242 --> 01:37:10,782
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast.

1467
01:37:11,242 --> 01:37:19,722
Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.

1468
01:37:20,102 --> 01:37:26,402
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash Walker and this podcast at primal.net slash Titcoin.

1469
01:37:26,822 --> 01:37:34,822
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram at Titcoin Podcast.

1470
01:37:34,822 --> 01:37:46,402
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links, head to substack.com slash at Walker America to get episodes emailed to you and head to Bitcoin podcast.net for everything else.

1471
01:37:46,962 --> 01:37:50,502
Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant.

1472
01:37:51,002 --> 01:37:56,122
So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast.

1473
01:37:56,622 --> 01:37:59,182
Until next time, stay free.

1474
01:38:04,822 --> 01:38:05,822
Thank you.