The thing that makes me the most hopeful is all of the people that are waking up to what's going on in the world,
and it's not just in Bitcoin, but it's everywhere now.
There was a Palestinian Israeli protest the other day,
and the Israeli side and the Palestinian side were both chanting,
fuck Joe Biden. That's beautiful, man. That's America. They both hated the president for totally different reasons.
I mean, come on. If that doesn't make you hopeful that the American spirit is still alive,
you know, we're an unruly people. We're supposed to be unruly and free and dirty and unwashed and crass.
That is the American ethic and ethos, live free, baby, or die. Okay?
And whatever else comes up. Today, I have two guests returning to the show at the same time for episode 69 of the Bitcoin podcast,
Preston Pish, an American hodl, or hodl. I love these dudes. They're great guys, and I know you're going to love this episode.
It is a banger, as the kids say. If you're interested, go back and check out the original conversations I had with both these guys.
You can find them linked in the show notes. The three of us covered a bunch of topics today because, frankly, there's a lot of shit going on right now.
We talk about all the shit that's going on right now, and we also talk about why there are a lot of reasons to be hopeful.
Before we dive in, just a heads up that you can find the links in the show notes for discounts on the Bitcoin only
Bitbox 02 hardware wallet from Bitbox Swiss and on 5G SIM cards from Cloaked Wireless to protect you from SIM swap attacks.
The promo code for both is Walker. If you'd rather watch this show, then listen, head to the show notes for links to watch on YouTube,
Rumble, and now on Noster. But if you're like me and you prefer to just listen to the audio, I highly recommend you check out fountain.fm.
Not only can you send Bitcoin to your favorite podcasters to give value for value, but you can earn Bitcoin just for listening to the show.
And if you're already listening to the Bitcoin podcast on fountain, consider giving the show a boost or creating a clip of something you found interesting.
I really appreciate it. Finally, if you are a Bitcoin only company interested in sponsoring another fucking Bitcoin podcast,
hit me up on social media or through the website, BitcoinPodcast.net.
Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk with Preston Pish and American hodl. HODL.
Hello, welcome. This is a podcast. We're all here. Three of us. I've never done a three way podcast like this before.
It's my first time. So I appreciate you guys both being here coming back on to another fucking Bitcoin podcast to join me for this auspicious moment.
It's episode 69. So, uh, wow, could it be better?
There's a really good Lonely Island song called Three Way.
It's Walker's first time we promised to be gentle.
Yeah. Well, thank you guys for that. I mean, you're so considerate, honestly.
Well, well, I mean, you know, this, uh, this episode came about because somebody had put together a really nice mashup on Noister of,
oh, you're, uh, one of your rants from the episode we recorded together and Preston, a recent show that you've done.
I don't remember exactly which show it was, but it was a pretty sweet mashup and got me fired up.
And I was like, what if they both came on at once? Like we're just, I mean, what would happen?
What would be the results of that? So here we are today. Thank you both.
Um, I'm stoked for this because there's a lot of, there's a lot of things going on right now.
I was just actually like, I was making a list before this because I was like, let me,
let me just figure out like all the things that have happened like in the last couple weeks alone.
And I was going down and it was like, okay, yeah, Bitcoin having that. Yeah, that was nice.
Um, Preston, I saw you were in El Salvador for that, which looked just lovely.
Um, we had the FISA expansion of warrantless surveillance.
Hooray. We had the samurai wallet creators indicted and arrested for all their whirlpooling.
Hong Kong ETFs. Hooray. America sending billions more to fund foreign wars.
Roger Vera arrested and charged with extort, I mean exit tax evasion, not extortion tax.
Excuse me. Let's see Bitcoin 58K gang proved right yet again.
Honestly, like these guys, they're seeing the future or something.
Uh, the yen is trading like a shit coin.
Coinbase finally integrates lightning.
Yay, proof that bullying works.
Uh, so keep bullying out there, which is also just amazing cause it's like,
I've been told that lightning doesn't work and yet somehow coinbase integrated it.
So it's like, how did that happen?
Uh, sailor announced micro strategy orange.
And, uh, I think there's a lot of interesting reactions to that that I've seen from people who,
uh, don't understand that you can do whatever you want on Bitcoin.
Uh, Yellen admits she's worried about the deficit.
Powell gives a kind of a dovish press conference and my favorite quote from it was, he says,
uh, like we, I don't see the stag or the flation with regard to stagflation,
which is like about as funny of a joke as a corrupt central banker can make.
Uh, let's see.
Oh, it just a couple hours ago wasabi announced that they are blocking going to block us citizens
and residents from visiting their websites and using their wallet and related products.
And did I miss anything like, and that's just like the last couple of weeks.
Uh, I think, I think I about rounded it up.
But is there anything else to add to that list of shenanigans?
No, not that I can think of.
I would summarize based on everything you just said, I would summarize with the U S is getting very scared of payments.
And it seems like, um, store of value with the approval of the ETFs and, and the legal precedence that was set there was almost
like this moment where it's like, all right, we're not going to win the store of value, uh, battle.
So now let's just point all of our energy towards payments.
We cannot allow layer two payments to like take hold, like store of value is taken hold.
And so like, I think that's the battleground at this point.
I would say you could also summarize it as the regulatory clarity that everybody was looking for.
It's here.
It's here and it sucks.
This is this is clear.
Unfortunately, you know, it is interesting.
Like, I mean, do you guys think that it's genuinely like a, uh, often in Bitcoin, we are Bitcoiners myself guilty as charged.
We refer to like the they, the them, you know, the, the men behind the curtain, the central bankers, the bankers in general, the,
you know, psychopaths or sociopaths in government, the ones pulling the strings.
And, and sometimes it's easy to think that these things are very much, uh, different actions are concerted efforts like coordinated efforts,
uh, conspiracy, if you will, in the literal definition of conspiracy.
Oftentimes things just happen as far, uh, in terms of a coincidence.
Do you think this is one of those times or does this feel like a genuinely concerted effort to throw like, there's just a lot of stuff seems to be happening all at once,
like too much for coincidence.
I think it's very coordinated.
I think that, uh, the coordination is happening with Wall Street, large, large cap banks, the J.P. Morgan's, the, I mean, all the big ones.
Um, and I think that, uh, at least against the, the payment side, um, because they're looking at it and they definitely understand,
they understand maybe the government, you know, actors that are, that are implementing the things that they're paying them behind the scenes to, to, to do,
um, might not deeply understand what's taking place.
But I think that the, that the big bankers definitely understand how important not losing the payments front is for them to try to,
uh, continue to have a stranglehold on, on the printing press and, uh, just what they've, they've benefited for, uh, for the last, you know, 100 years.
So, um, I think that they are the ones that, uh, were behind, uh, Warren and the FinCen proposal that happened before Christmas and like all of those antics.
If you think that that's like happening because these politicians are there, there's, there are actors with very deep pockets behind these politicians that are pushing them
in these directions and trying to get them to, uh, orchestrate everything that you're seeing playing out.
The problem that they're going to run into is with enough time, the technology is going to just continue to chip away at these, with these
moats that they've had for all these, you know, since time immemorial.
Um, and it's a losing battle.
All they can do is just kind of slow it down though.
And I think that what we're seeing with some of the, some of the stuff with FinCen and, and basically them trying to divide the payments into, uh, KYC, custodyed solutions versus non custodial solutions that don't require KYC is kind of the, the divide that you're seeing taking place right now.
Um, is, uh, in the long run is not going to work.
Like it's just not, it's not going to be competitive.
Um, because it's, it's just good that technology is going to continue to chip away at it.
Now it might take another decade more than what it would have, you know, and I don't know what the timeline is.
I'm just throwing that out as a random number.
What would have maybe been a three year thing is maybe a 10 year thing or whatever.
It's just going to take that, that glide slope out further because they're battling it.
But, um, maybe there's a case that, that maybe it accelerates it.
I don't know.
I'm curious with hodl things on it.
Yeah.
I think it feels coordinated as well.
I mean, I think the, the ETFs really shook a lot of trees in, uh, in, in DC and on in New York.
And basically people were like, holy shit, look at the popularity.
Look at the demand for this.
And, you know, I'd love to get press and thoughts on like, uh, the macro picture because, you know, like the
stagflation point is interesting because it seems like there's a rush to close the exits, right?
Before they do something.
And I'm not really adept enough to know what that something is, but obviously Bitcoin is the
biggest possible exit.
And so, you know, they're right now, nothing has happened that actually like shuts Bitcoin off.
Um, but, you know, especially like the on ramps and off ramps, but there's fear.
They're, they're chumming the waters and they're creating a lot of fear surrounding Bitcoin.
And if you're a casual person, uh, who, you know, has a retail brokerage account, you were possibly
thinking about buying the ETFs or whatever and you're reading these headlines.
It's like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
And, you know, you would, I think a lot of people who are just casually, uh, browsing the newspaper,
whatever would just go, yeah, I don't know if this is worth it.
Something's going on here.
I'm going to stay away for right now.
And it seems like that's the intended effect, you know, which I think is totally by design for them to
accumulate for those that are in the know of what's taking place here.
That just gives them an opportunity to accumulate more.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I agree with, with HODL.
I think the, the macro backdrop is getting just fascinating.
Uh, what's happening in Japan, uh, with the, with the yen devaluation, when you look at their credit
markets, like, so when you look at the, the entire bond yield curve of, of Japanese bonds,
um, I mean, it's selling off through levels that we haven't seen in decades.
Um, and, uh, they're, they're just not able to get the inflation under control and nobody is.
Um, and I think that when we look at Japan, it's kind of the canary in the coal mine because those
were always the lowest rates.
And, um, when, when you currency adjusted the, the yields for their bonds over there.
So like they might be yielding something really low in Japan and you'd get a higher yield here in the U.S.
But whenever you adjusted them for the, for the currency differences, they were actually kind of at par
despite the yield differences that you were seeing.
So when we're looking at that yield over in Japan and it's selling off, it's really kind of between
that, the U.S., the UK, um, those are the, those are the markets that are really kind of driving the,
the credit sell off and they just don't have it under control.
And, um, if we start punching through, uh, lower lows in these credit markets after seeing the most
disgusting bond sell off in over a century, um, let me tell you, that's going to be quite devastating
from an impairment standpoint on all of this fiat that's in the system.
And it's like, if you're a fixed income person and you're seeing even deeper selling off and something
that's a century sized sell off bear market, um, that has the potential to really turn into cascading,
uh, contagion really fast.
And it's like, where, where does all that buying power go? So like, as people are pulling more and more
resources and funds out of, out of this fixed income market, where does it go?
It has to go into something that has some type of scarcity to it.
So that's Bitcoin, that's gold, that's, uh, you know, commodities are really hard to do because of the
supply and demand that's constantly fluctuating, but those prices are going to go higher.
Any type of business equity wise that makes money that has some type of moat, it's going to get bid even more.
Even if the PE is at 40 or 50, it's going to even get bid more because it represents some type of scarcity
because they don't have to issue more shares.
So like that's where all this buying power is going to go out of the fixed income.
And when I'm looking at the thresholds that we're at, like we are pressing up on where we were at.
I'd have to look at a chart, um, just to kind of give you an idea.
So the, the sell off really kind of hit its peak, uh, in the October 2023 timeframe and, and where we're at right now,
we're starting to get back to some of those, those lows right now.
And if they punch through there's like those lows, like watch out and price wise, watch out, like it's, it's going to get really spicy.
Um, yeah.
And I think that I think we can totally see that by the end of the year.
Yeah. And Preston, what does the, you know, financial repression scheme look like if that is the backdrop,
let's say like six, eight months from now?
Well, I think, uh, you know, Luke Roman's been beating the drum that the dollar is going to have to get devalued like immensely,
uh, going into the end of the year.
And when we look at the elections that are coming up, um, I tend to agree with them that like that's going to probably be the lever that they pull.
They're going to devalue the dollar tremendously.
And, uh, you know, that's usually a pretty good thing for Bitcoin when they're devaluing the dollar pretty hard.
So, um, I would expect that well before we start getting into November.
Um, so maybe, maybe a little bit of chaos between now and the beginning of the summer,
but then I think once we get into the summer, you're going to see the dollar just get devalued like immensely.
It almost seems to me like the feds game plan right now as much as they have a game plan ever is to kind of try and confuse markets a little bit.
Like they're really trying to, it seems like not to not, you know, they don't want to quarry, you know, pre-choreograph their moves.
They, they want people, you know, that's why Jerome Powell's wording.
Like if you actually listen to the language and read those transcripts, it's, it's all just like it's nonsense.
Like it's, it's just kind of like, well, we could do, we could go left, but we could also go right.
And at the same time, we could stay right where we are.
And you know, it's interesting, Walker.
It's something that's on this the other day that like, um, Jerome Powell goes off script more than either of his previous two predecessors.
So Yellen and Bernanke were both very on script and Powell goes off script in an attempt to jaw bone and financially manipulate the market.
Right.
And so the reason he's going off script is so that he can get those reactions.
And that's why he's speaking out of both sides of his mouth, because he wants to see what the psychological reaction is going to be on the market.
He wants to affect it in that manner.
So Walker, what I would tell you is it's, it's actually a very astute observation that you have with respect to them.
Just like creating almost like a, uh, it's almost like they're trying to cipher what the real message is so that people have no idea
what they're going to actually do.
But, but when it comes to push, shove, whatever, uh, you know, acronym or whatever, uh, catchphrase you want to use.
Um, I think that when we look at the, that the election coming up and we just kind of look at the backdrop, we look at how sick the fixed income market is.
They have to, they have to do something and they're going to have to, I think the only lever that they have left to pull is the currency.
So I think they're saying all this stuff.
I think it's just meaningless.
I think it's just ciphering whatever the real message is so that people are not trying to act on it and trade it.
And, um, it's so broke.
Well, like we know it's, you know, and, and of course, uh, the Federal Reserve is a public private institution, which is naturally separate from our elected representatives and never at all influenced by them, nor do they do any influencing of their own.
Of course.
But Walker, you literally had Biden go out.
This was like two, three weeks ago and he made the comment about how they were going to cut within, like, I've never, ever seen a president come out and even hint at such a thing.
And this was literally an oppressed conference.
So I mean, I actually, I did not see that.
That's why.
Yeah.
This was like, this was like, I would say two or three weeks ago.
Yeah.
Zero.
Oh man.
This was, you know, sharing the clip all over Twitter and yeah.
I must, I must have been on Noster that day.
Um, but no, that's, that's honestly pretty incredible, but just like, to Powell, I mean, it's clear that again, he's trying to just obfuscate intentions as much as possible.
Yep.
But at the same time, even when you hear the, the people in the, you know, the press corps that are asking him questions, they're kind of like, well, you know, aren't you, aren't you maybe going to need to, to change some things here?
And it's also funny because they, uh, there's a phrase that they, that they use all the time that Paul uses all the time.
He says, we'll look at the totality of the data.
And I find that phrase to be so hilarious because of course that's impossible.
You can't look at the totality of the data in a market like no one person, no group of people, unless you have honestly like a CBDC and
everything is completely on that CBDC rails and you have supercomputers to be able to run all this data.
Maybe an AGI could look at the totality of the data, but it is impossible for humans in any context to look at the quote totality of the data.
It's, it's hubris.
They started saying that, I would say five or six years ago, uh, just off the top of my head, they started using this totality term and, and back.
If I remember right when they started using this term, it was in this context of like everybody was looking at the metrics that they always use and they're like, they have to raise rates at this point.
And they didn't want to raise them yet at whatever, right?
And so they came out and they started saying this totality term because it gave them the wiggle room to just kind of make it up as they go and just use whatever metric they want to like actually pluck to say, this is the reason why we didn't raise them.
We didn't raise or we did raise and it just gave them more flexibility to do whatever the heck they wanted.
I mean, that's, that's kind of interesting historical context.
And that it's clearly it's that, uh, that attempt by, uh, let's say fiat economists and economists and fiat financial planners to have their physics envy is showing.
You know, they're trying to say, well, you know, if only you had access to all the data we have and that is giga brains as we do to be able to look at the totality of it.
Then you'd see that what we're doing is of course completely rational.
Yeah.
But the absurd thing is, is that it's like, you have to have a really short memory, like really short to have any faith in the Fed at all.
Like even as the, as I'm talking about the normal person just going about their day to day, maybe they pay attention to the Fed a little bit.
You don't need to know much to probably have seen a clip of every higher up person in the finance world and in the central banking world across the world from, you know, from Lagarde to Bailey to Jerome Powell to Yellen saying it's transitory,
inflation is transitory.
And then, you know, it's a, it's a, in Lagarde's words, it's a hump that will go down.
And, and then of course, you know, later on the say, well, by transitory, we really meant that it's going to be stickier than expected.
And it's like, well, that's the complete opposite.
Yeah.
And then, and then of course, by stickier than expected and transitory, what we really meant was that, well, prices are never going to go down.
We're never going to have disinflation.
We're just going to have a slower increase in year over year change.
But it's still going to, but we're going to get it back to our arbitrary 2% that we've set up as the perfect amount of theft per year that you won't entirely notice.
But I feel like, and you see a lot of these, these videos shared by like, I think Wall Street Silver shares a lot of them, like pulled from TikTok.
And a lot of people just starting to really ask the right questions because they're so frustrated.
And they're like, why, why can't I afford to just live?
Like I'm working, I work a decent job.
You know, maybe, maybe you're a nurse, maybe you're whatever you might be like, you work a good job and still you're, you're struggling to make ends meet.
And people saying, well, this, this isn't how it's supposed to be.
Like I followed the plan.
I did what I was told and it's just getting more and more expensive.
And, you know, it seems like, and this is something I remember Jeff Booth actually said in the chat, like one of the first chats I had on here was right before your chat actually.
He said, like the only way to resolve all of these very obvious problems in the system is to reset it by going to war and, and divide.
Like the only way that you're really going to get that reset is if you have, you know, kind of a, well, not a force majeure, but a human induced force majeure where you say, well, these are extraordinary circumstances and they call for extraordinary measures.
I mean, do you think we're getting, we're getting near that point because what happens next?
Like what happens after this next election?
Yeah, I think that historically it was always the perfect excuse to just blame it on while we had to defend ourselves or if we didn't do these things, well, then we were going to have security issues within our boundaries of our nation.
So they, they would then go to war and then they can blame all the excess spending on the fact that they went to war, which then gave them an excuse as to why the currency exploded.
I think this time around is very different from a historical context.
And I think it's very different because there's countries that that are that are wrapped up into this giant fiat scheme that the developed nations of the world, the G sevens of the world have, have played extraordinarily well and have benefited extraordinarily well for decades.
And I think that there's a lot of victims of this, this policy, this fiat policy that these, you know, really big nation states have benefited from.
And I think a lot of them are figuring this out. And then I think a lot of them are going to opt out.
And I think that's going to be the moment that Bitcoin is really going to shine.
And I think that Bitcoin is this, this gauge that allows the rest of the world to actually see the debauchery that's happening with these with these fiat currencies.
And so are we going to see some of these countries go to war?
Maybe. Are we going to see all of them go to war?
Of course not.
And so there's going to be beneficiaries of this reset.
And, you know, we've been having the weft elites say that we're the great reset, the great reset has been the theme for for a decade at this point.
And you know what, we are going to get a reset, but it's not going to be the reset that they think it's going to be.
And maybe it is for them, but not for the whole world.
Right. This reset is going to go down so differently than they're expecting and that they're trying to get a reset.
Then they're expecting and that they're trying to plan like, you know, it was called literally called the pandemic and we don't have to go into what everybody's opinion is on that.
But I can tell you looking at the charts and looking at all the interesting things that were happening in 2020, it was no surprise to me that we were seeing some of the things happening in the background that that are the perfect excuse as to why we need to debase the
money and do all these types of things and now you can just add the war and all this stuff that we're seeing, whether it's in the Ukraine, Russia, over in Israel with Palestine, Iran, you name the country.
The thing that I keep bringing up in interviews that I find really fascinating Walker is every country that is an enemy of the United States, a quote unquote enemy of the United States.
They're all net producers.
When you look at their local economies, every one of those economies that are the enemies of the United States are all net producers.
They are sending raw materials and services in excess out of their countries, more going out than what they're consuming.
When you look at all of our allies at the U.S., they're all net consuming nation states that have the power of the printing press.
And so when people are trying to understand why this scenario is playing out and why we're at each other's throats, you don't have to look too far to kind of like get to the root of what the problem is.
And it's the unit of account, the number that's being used to exchange value and energy with each other.
So it's going to play out.
There's going to be kinetic activities that do happen between certain nations.
I would argue that's already taking place, but it's more in a sensing standpoint right now between between many countries.
You have some full blown combat activities over and over in the Ukraine happening.
And it's just a matter of how much that's going to flare up before the leaders of these countries figure out that there is an off ramp to this debauchery and insanity.
And you know what?
It takes inspirational leadership.
It takes leaders that can step up and say, hey, here's a solution to this massive problem that we can't escape if we just take courageous decisions and actually understand what the heck we're talking about.
But for many of these countries, they're just going to, you know, the leadership is very weak and very stupid and not thinking about things from a first principle standpoint as to what the root of the problem is.
And unfortunately, they're going to probably get a lot of people killed in the process.
I pray that's not the scenario.
As somebody who's been in combat, let me tell you, there's nothing pleasant about it.
There's nothing pleasant about it.
And you know, it's a time for strong leaders to step up, very ethical leaders to step up, and very informed and intelligent leaders to step up and find the off ramp to save not only the people who are killed,
find the off ramp to save not only themselves, but all the people that they represent inside of their nation.
It's beautifully well said, Preston.
And you know, just speaking of leaders who do appear to be breaking the mold that we've been used to of ineffectual, soft, just generally weak leadership across the world.
You were recently in El Salvador.
You and that was your first time there, correct?
Correct.
Yes.
Okay.
I mean, personally, I had the pleasure of going there a couple of times in 2022 and just loved it, heard great things from everyone I talked to.
And of course, I didn't talk to every single person in the country.
There are always going to be people who are unhappy with what's going on.
But the people I talked to were really happy with the leadership that they had.
I also just saw, maybe you saw this clip of Bukele bringing basically his whole cabinet into a meeting and saying,
I'm going to investigate every single one of you for corruption because I know my hands are clean, but my legacy will be tainted if the people I surround myself with are dirty.
And I thought that was a pretty cool move.
But I'm curious if we see, I mean, we've seen Malay in Argentina.
We've seen Bukele in El Salvador, two countries where there has been a massive amount of, let's say, obvious corruption, because I think there's corruption everywhere.
The degree to which it is really obvious varies.
Like we have plenty of corruption in America.
We're very good at hiding a lot of it behind a nice veneer.
But I'm curious if you see, well, kind of your experience in El Salvador one, take on Bukele and how that positions even a small nation like El Salvador to move up in the global rankings.
And then do you start to see that model expand and be picked up by more countries?
Because they say, well, look at the results that they speak for themselves.
One of the things that I'm most impressed with, with Bukele, and I am by no shape of the
imagination and expert on Bukele, but the one thing that I will say I'm very impressed with is how he stood up to the IMF and World Bank and is trying his best to break out of that model.
Because if you're a small, even if you're a midsize country, trying to break free from that scheme.
And let me tell you, it is a scheme of schemes that the IMF and the World Bank have pooled on all of these countries to get them in debt.
As much as they possibly can so that they can extract out any and all valuable natural resources out of those local countries and then just continue to roll the debt to make it to the point where they can never, ever repay it.
That's the game.
And so Bukele not only recognized this, but then had the courage to go toe to toe with against this massive system.
And I think that that is one of the most important things that I've seen him do.
Then anybody that is familiar with El Salvador, they would say that his stance on corruption is also magnanimous.
I'm not an expert on on what he's done from a getting rid of corruption standpoint, but from what I've heard, it's pretty incredible.
And so I would argue those are two very important things that courageous, inspirational leadership has been set.
And again, I don't know him.
I don't know him. I don't know him personally, but those two things I think are very courageous.
I would agree with that.
And first of all, I'd like to welcome back.
Welcome back, Hodel or Hodel.
Honesty, I think we might need to debate later if it's Hodel or Hodel.
It's not.
It's it's not.
Yeah.
Oh, so listen, I like you.
I like you.
I like you so much.
But you sound like a fucking retard when you say it the other way.
I'm just saying.
Do you say no, sir?
No, sir.
Now I found the problem.
OK.
No, it's OK.
Is it GIF or GIF?
Yes.
If you say GIF, I swear to God, I will punch the screen.
I certainly won't be saying that.
I can't have you doing that.
I will save this debate for later.
But but welcome back with I'm glad the technical difficulties have mostly resolved.
I'm back on mobile.
I found a find where there's a will.
There's a way walker.
I'm back.
That's beautiful.
Just problem solving.
But I just wanted to so to bring you up to speed here.
I was just asking we're talking about just the need for a strong leadership in the
times to come and how countries like El Salvador under Bokele have clearly like
if we're just looking at the results, they have done what people previously would
have thought impossible, both from the standpoint of getting out from under the
boot of the international US led organizations like the IMF, which are modern day
monetary colonialists and extractors and it's disgusting.
And then also from the perspective of just genuinely establishing rule of law in a
country where there was different sets of laws, depending on, you know, who you were
connected to.
And I think that that's actually such an important part or an important point is
law itself and this idea that like the only legitimate purpose of the law, like
like the law at its core is supposed to protect private property, to protect
individual private property.
That's that's why the law exists.
The purpose of government is to enforce the law.
Thus, the purpose of government is to organize for the collective defense of
private property.
Now, it's to make sure that you are safe.
Your property is safe from plunders, basically, but we've seen a perverted law,
a law that is then put the people who are in charge of enforcing the law in a
position of being plunders themselves.
And that's a really sick and twisted perversion.
And it seems to me that what what Bokele is done and it seems what Malay is
trying to do through slightly different means is to set up the rule of law again.
Now, I know there's a lot of pushback on someone like Bokele as well, because
the way in which he went about this was, you know, rounding up people with with
their gang signs tattooed on their faces or their necks and probably, you know,
caught a few people in that net that maybe shouldn't have been.
And I hope that those people will be obviously dealt with in all the fairness
of the law.
But I think that you see a massive difference, a stark contrast between what
he's doing in El Salvador with genuinely trying to bring back the defense of
people's private property from what was the gangs there to what is happening in
America, what's happening in Canada, what's happening in Europe, where you start
to see that crimes are not punished like you can.
We so many videos of looting or just people robbing stores.
There's, you know, in major cities and there's just like there's no repercussions
for these sorts of things.
And I think that what America did really well was have an established rule of law
that was supposed to be fair and we had checks and balances.
And it seems like there's a lot of a lot of perversion of the law happening.
And it's one of those times where the people closest to the money printer know
that time's kind of running out and it's just like a cash grab at this point to
say, how much can I get my hands on to secure my own legacy and for my family
before before the party stops, before the music turns off, you know, and everybody
tries to sit down in their chair and you got to find one that has the most bags of
cash under it. I don't know.
I just love to hear from you guys like
is I want America to be salvageable and I think that it is.
But I don't know what kind of change is required in order to get us off the path
that we're on now. And is that change?
You know, does Bitcoin fix this?
Is it an incentives problem?
Is that change?
Does it have to start, you know, at a local level?
Is it possible to make those changes from the top down?
Are we just fucked? Discuss.
I think the two things, one of the things that we were talking about earlier was,
you know, is this coordinated against Bitcoin or is it not?
Are they trying to shut off the exits?
Are they trying to, you know, destroy peer to peer currency?
Like all of that stuff, I think, is directly correlated to the crisis that's
happening at the southern border, the lax policies on crime in liberal cities
and in sanctuary cities and in blue states.
It's the most obvious thing in the world to me that like you, if you want to put
in a totalitarian, you know, dictatorship or authoritarian regime or oligopoly,
you need to have the people request it.
And what's the easiest way to get the people to request it is to terrorize them
into requesting it.
Right. I mean, we've seen this playbook plays out over and over and over again.
And so it's an attempt to consolidate power.
They want to terrorize us into sort of obedience and, you know, pacification
and requesting safety.
Please save us from the problem that you created.
You know, I mean, to me, like all of those things are anti-American.
A lot of the leadership we have in America is anti-American.
A lot of the things that people think and believe in popular sentiments are anti-American.
All of that is true, but we're not fucked.
And here's why we're not fucked is because we still have the world's best technologists,
best and brightest minds.
We are still building the future, even if the people who, you know, are running the
country right now are intent on destroying that future.
We're building it anyway.
Okay. And we don't give a fuck.
And so we're building these parallel systems.
We're trying to enshrine America for another hundred years.
We need to clean up the corruption.
I mean, the corruption is rampant.
Like nobody wants that.
Like there's a there's a ETF now that's tracking Nancy Pelosi's trades.
It's outperforming the S&P 500.
So you don't even have to track Nancy's trades yourself.
You can buy this ETF.
I think it's called NANC.
It tracks Nancy and Paul Pelosi's trades and it outperforms the Broadmarket Index funds.
Are you fucking kidding me?
This is the kleptocracy that we're living in and everybody can see it.
It's so obvious to everybody.
Everybody knows it.
And yet we all just sit there and we're in like some sort of malaise where it's just like this
nihilism is washing over us. We're all like, I don't know, man.
Everything's fucked, man.
Blah, blah, blah, man, whatever, dude.
And I don't feel that way.
I feel optimistic because we own the future.
Owning Bitcoin means we own the fucking future.
OK, and we have a seat at the table and we're going to get to say how things operate.
And the way I want things to operate is the way the fucking US Constitution says
they should fucking operate the end.
So what?
On my side, I agree with everything that Hoddle just said.
This is the only thing that I would I guess this is a pushback.
When I think about moving forward, I think of like the United States and like all the
people inside there, all the companies inside of it, they're almost like neurons in a brain
and the way that they organize themselves and the way that they the incentives that
they've been wired to perform in the economy.
When I think about what these neurons have been wired to do over the past 80 years,
they have been incentivized to play this game in a way that you get as close to the
money printer as possible, you get levered up as much as you possibly can.
You you leverage these political appointees that that you then put in the place.
You vote if you're in defense, you vote money into your district by building
F 35s and all these types of things.
This is the game that everybody's accustomed to.
This is the game that they know.
It's it's akin to a person using heroin nonstop for a decade straight and then
saying we're going to get them off the heroin and then they're going to just do this.
They're going to play this free and open market thing where the fittest survive
and the ones that are the weakest just kind of die and there's no political favors
or any of this kind of stuff.
Right.
For me and when I'm looking at whoever the strongest heroin addict was in this old
legacy system from a country standpoint, that that country is going to probably
struggle the most in the transition just because of how their how their quote unquote
brain has been wired, how the economy has been wired to function in the incentives
inside of that country have been and have been wired to function.
So another thing that I would say is if you are a country that has been in a
country that has been dealing with double digit inflation, you become a master
of controlling your expenses and trying your darnest to be able to create value.
And so once that inflation subsides, it's it's almost like you were out there
running around the track and you had like all these extra weights on you.
And then all of a sudden the weights start coming off and you can you can really
rip around the track.
But for people that have had the luxury of not dealing with, you know, I mean,
what was the inflation here in the US for the most part relative to this is very
relative to all these other countries in the world.
Well, we were basically in the lap of luxury.
We didn't we weren't running around the track with like the these weight suits on us.
And so I think that when you combine these things and you kind of think of it
in these terms, who should be the countries that struggle the most with the
transition, just looking at it very objectively.
And as an American and as a person that had served in the military in this country,
let me tell you, nobody wants to see the United States recover from all this
more than me.
But I can also look at things very objectively and look at them in terms of
like how nature operates.
And I'm saying the US should probably be
it should probably be pretty dang hard on them.
It should be really hard on Europe.
Like some of these really advanced economies that are completely wired to
operate in this old legacy system and the incentives of it are going to probably
struggle immensely with the transition.
One other thing that I would tell you is the countries that have a lot of
physical infrastructure for this legacy system, that transition to this new system
where efficiency is going to be king, the countries that are that are building
that infrastructure for the very first time from the ground up and can do it in a
very thoughtful and efficient kind of way and not reengineer stuff that was
already there and repurpose it.
I think are going to actually have a huge advantage from a trend standpoint
going into the coming 10 to 25 years from now.
So anyway, but yeah, go ahead, Paul.
No, I totally agree that America is not going to be nimble in this transition.
And we are going to be as slow and lumbering and it is going to be as
painful as Preston described.
I believe all of those things are true.
But I also believe in this sort of American ethos that like America will
try all the wrong things before it finally does the right thing.
And that's just the chaos of our air quotes, democracy.
And like I think we're going through some sort of a big cyclical change
in American life that is very similar to the cyclical change we went through
at the turn of the industrial revolution.
And now we have a digital revolution that's happening.
And the American institutions that accept that that digital revolution is
happening are going to do well.
So if you look at like the East Coast versus the West Coast, this is something
like Balaji Srinivasan talked about.
The East Coast is just trying to consolidate their power, hang on to their little
fiefdom, their lashing out at anybody who doesn't agree with them or who,
you know, points out where they're hypocritical.
And then the West Coast is just like, all right, I don't even want to
participate in that game.
I don't even play that game.
We are going to build in cyberspace.
And when we are very, we're not fully aligned with the with the tech elites
on the West Coast.
In fact, many of them are shit coiners.
So we're like actually diametrically opposed to some of them.
But spiritually, we are much more on their side than we are on the
entrenched East Coast side.
And so to me, as somebody who is looking forward optimistically, I side with
the new pioneers who are going to the new frontier and the new frontier is
cyberspace.
And basically it's like, OK, take the El Salvador example, right?
El Salvador is going to be one of these nimble players in the digital economy.
And they have a chance to be like a South American Estonia or even better,
like a South American Monaco or something like that.
And I believe that's going to happen for them.
But El Salvador is not America.
Let's not conflate the two things.
It can never be America.
It's not protected by the oceans.
It doesn't have the Mississippi.
It doesn't have the nuclear arsenal.
It's not us.
We're we're a totally different thing.
And yeah, we're like slow and lumbering and moving America is like moving
an aircraft carrier. All those things are true.
But we still have some of the best, most freedom minded people in the world here.
And a lot of these people who hate America and who are trying to run our
society into the ground, frankly, they're 85 years old.
What do they got?
They can do this for six more years.
Maybe maybe with the best drugs on earth.
You know, I mean, come on, their time is going to run out.
All I look around and all my peers, all the young, smart people,
they're all building towards the libertarian, you know, Bitcoin future.
Some of them are building towards like the A.I.
Communist future.
But hopefully that we'll have to see those two things are going to play out.
I think that's the battle of the 21st century.
At the heart of it, Walker, just because speaking of drugs,
whatever drugs Joe Biden is on, I think we could all use some because whatever
that shit is is like the next level.
Yeah, no, sorry, Preston, go ahead.
For us to accelerate everything that Hodel just said, I completely agree with him.
But to to accelerate and to to manifest this, the speed of the US or you name it
country to really kind of benefit from from this transition into this new world,
this reset, it's going to take a leader that is deeply intellectual,
that understands what's taking place from a very broad standpoint.
They have to have reach and they have to have influence over other people within
within the country and other leaders within the country.
They have to be ethical in order to to help bridge this.
And they have to be able to share this this knowledge and this information in a
in a way that gets it down to as many people as possible.
This is the only way that you're going to be able to bridge this is through sound,
ethical, intelligent leadership.
It's why I keep bringing it up as a theme is because that's the only way you can
accelerate it in you name it country.
Do you think, though, that that starts, I mean, and I agree with that in term from
an acceleration standpoint, but again, we've also acknowledged that America is slow
and lumbering, especially it seems at the top of our political hierarchy.
So is it I think there's a good argument to be made for localism, for a,
you know, for lack of a better word, a decentralized approach to change,
which I think you're already seeing happen, right?
You're seeing that start to play out.
You see the differences from one town to another in terms of maybe how they dealt
with covid policy.
You see the difference from one state to another in terms of how they deal with
border policy.
You see the difference from one state to another in how they deal with taxes.
So and like that's that's good.
We should have differences between states in America because that was the whole
fucking point of America was to have different states that were each able to
operate in such a way that you know what, if you don't like it in X state,
you can move to Y state and you don't have to deal with X states bullshit anymore.
But I mean, do you see this kind of
because I agree, like it would be lovely to have an actual inspiring
and forceful and strong president that's not just trying to baffle everyone with
bullshit or absolutely dementia ridden
to speak of a couple that I can think of that are going to be at the top of both tickets.
I mean, do you think that we see that anytime soon?
Do you think that RFK is that person?
Do you think he has a legitimate chance on an independent ticket?
Do you think that this is something we still need to wait a couple more cycles for?
It's not it's not RFK pains.
Pains usually the teacher in this scenario.
Yes, yeah. Yeah, it's not going to be RFK.
I mean, RFK is he just he's just not going to be the guy.
You know, unfortunately, I mean, I like him.
He's a very principled guy.
He reminds me of like Bernie Sanders with a functioning brain, you know,
right, Bernie seems to be, you know, missing it.
He's a few crayons short of a full box.
So yeah, it's not going to be what I think if you're asking me who I actually think
it's going to be, I think it's going to be a young, smart,
Mexican, Republican, like the Mexican JFK, who hopefully we orange pill.
And he's very pro Bitcoin and pro freedom.
That's the guy I think is coming to like write the ship.
You know, because if you look at like the demographics that are shifting in America,
we're going to get a Mexican president sooner or later.
And Mexicans are actually very conservative.
They're much more conservative than people think they are.
They just don't have economic power yet.
But like they're basically all Catholics who have nine children.
That's a conservative, my guy.
Right.
So like there's going to be this, this sweeping sort of
Reagan movement with like a young, good looking, intelligent Mexican president
at some point, and I'm fucking all for it.
I like that.
That's going to be I'm going to take this clip and replay it when we get our
first young, good looking, you know, based Mexican president.
I look forward to it.
I'm impressed.
I'm curious.
I'm curious your take too, though.
Like, do you do you see this happening anytime soon?
Or is this again, like you said, Payne's the best teacher and I agree.
Like you get smart by force, not by choice most of the time.
And most of us are pretty fucking dumb.
What's your take on the fact that we still have most people in this country
pointing at the other party tells me that there's a lot more pain on the horizon.
Because once they stop pointing at the other party and they realize that both
parties are equally as corrupted and that the solution is you got to suck the
monetary energy out of the out of the printing press.
Once it gets to that, then I think we're going to be ripe for somebody to step in
and kind of lead that charge with that being the primary talking point is that
both sides and you started getting this with some of the fringe candidates already,
which tells me it's kind of coming, but you're not seeing it with the ones that
are dominating either party.
So yeah, I think you're not going to get at this election.
Maybe the next election you will.
I think, you know, I was thinking about this just recently, actually,
which is I think that the world is so has gotten so complicated and things are so
specialized and esoteric.
The average person you talk to doesn't know what an LLM is.
They've never heard of it, right?
It's a big deal that's sweeping through tech.
They have no idea what that is.
They don't know anything about Bitcoin.
They don't know the difference between Bitcoin and cryptocurrency.
They just know that there's this sort of political theology that they can grab
ahold of and that can be like their dominant worldview because they're missing
an actual theology, right?
And that political theology is I'm a Democrat and Donald Trump is the most evil
Hitlerist character that's ever walked the face of this great nation, blah, blah,
or Donald Trump is the savior of this great nation and how dare, you know,
the evil Democrats, blah, blah, blah, all that shit, right?
And it's just it's a very easy, simple heuristic that people can use in order
to subdivide the world and sort of go about their day.
And so, you know, I unfortunately, I don't think we're ever going to get to a place
of like enlightenment where the average person goes, oh, you know what?
My neighbor, he might have different beliefs, but he's a good person.
That's kind of that's like from a bygone era that doesn't exist anymore, unfortunately.
Well, the average person is average, unfortunately.
And, you know, like, well,
and there's like that.
Well, the average person is average and depending if we're talking about, you know,
a median here or mode, you know, but like 50 percent of people are below that average.
If we're just let's just slice it down the middle, right?
Like, let's let's take that middle human in the US.
Like, there, like, I love my fellow Americans, but in every country, like,
it's a sad reality, but the majority of people are pretty dumb.
And that's OK, too.
Like, you can be dumb and still be a really good person because everything is
relative being like, yes, and I am a fucking idiot relative to some of the absolute
geniuses that I've met because everything is relative, right?
And a lot of the people that think they're absolute geniuses, the upper right hand
side of the bell curve, it's not quite at the, you know, if we're looking at the
bell curve meme, like you you get towards that upper right hand side.
Like, those are the dangerous people, right?
Those are the people that that are just smart enough to know that they're smarter
than average, but still not smart enough to actually be able to generate their own
or like original and organic thoughts.
They're still just repeating things that they've heard, right?
And to your point, Hodel, excuse me.
Thank you.
Yeah, you're welcome.
You're going to break me of this habit just right here in this chat.
But anyway, to your point, like,
yes,
most people are not paying attention to the vast majority of earth shattering
things that are happening at any given time, whether that be from a technological
perspective, whether that be from a geopolitical perspective, from a monetary
perspective, as it intersects with technology, they're just trying to get
through their day like they're just trying to get through their day.
They're just trying to get home to get done with work, get home to their kids,
lead a nice life and not be bled to death by inflation that is sucking them dry
and making everything harder for them as they still work their ass off.
And like that is the majority of people.
And one thing that does give me hope is that even though
the majority of people still don't see Bitcoin,
they're starting to at least and this I think when you dropped off,
Preston and I were talking about this a little bit, but the majority of people
are more people are starting to at least ask the right questions because they're
starting the pain is getting to be so much that they can't just ignore it anymore.
They can't just sweep it under the rug.
Right.
They don't have a way to rationalize it away anymore.
They have to say, wait a minute, I know something is really wrong.
I know something is really broken.
I can't quite put my finger on it, but I know it's there.
And so I'm going to, you know what?
Again, to your point, Preston, you get smart because of pain, right?
You get smart by force.
And so a lot of people are getting smarter right now.
They're starting to ask more questions.
They're starting to do more research.
And they're starting to realize that, wait a minute,
maybe all of these red, blue, left, right, talking points that I've been fed,
where every problem is blamed on the other side and every success is blamed or is
given to our side, maybe a lot of that was kind of bullshit.
Maybe there's something else at play.
And that gives me hope.
Like the more people start doubting and asking questions, the more hopeful I
become that we actually have a chance because like I may, I may trash talk,
quote, America a lot, but I want to be very clear that when I pick
Fonat or satirize or talk shit about America, I'm talking shit about our
political and financial class.
I'm not talking shit about American people.
I'm not talking about American ideas because I love American ideas and American
people. America is a young country that has done so, so much.
In such a short amount of time and through its efforts has lifted most of the
world out of poverty and now has organizations which
institute monetary colonialism like the IMF, but that's not the American people
instituting that.
That's not the American idea instituting that.
That's un-American.
That's anti-American.
So I still have hope for America.
I still love America.
I want America to succeed.
And I just hope we get smarter by force and by pain sooner rather than later.
But totally, I don't know.
You know, what's interesting is thinking about pain and how pain is a forcing
function. I was thinking about this the other day that basically like,
you know, the four year cycle or hodling through downturns or these brutal
Bitcoin bear markets that were all forced to experience, you know, negative 90%,
negative 80%.
I think those are a forcing function that inspire us to be better individuals
because you simply have to be better in order to make it through those
cruciples because those cruciples are searingly painful.
I mean, it's brutally hard.
And if we had gotten into Bitcoin, you know, whenever 2017 or before,
whenever we all entered and, you know, basically we just bought Bitcoin and
went straight to $2 million, I don't think we'd be very good people, you know?
And I don't, I just don't think we would have earned it, right?
And at least in this sense, we're forced to contend with like the reality
of the markets as they are.
There is no soft landing for Bitcoiners, right?
There is no circuit breaker for Bitcoiners.
We are alley cats.
We live outside.
We fight in the back of the Dunkin Donuts fucking alleyway over old spoiled milk
with other cats.
Okay.
We kill birds for our food, our sustenance.
That is, that is what we do.
And we, we live in the dirt.
We live in the fucking dirt, man.
We get into the details of things and we deal with base level reality every day
as investors.
Whereas I don't see that in the traditional markets quite as much in the
traditional markets.
It's like, um, just buying a market index funds and everything goes up because
of money printing the end.
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No, I first of all, now I'm, I'm picturing you as an alley cat.
So just a great visual Preston.
I'm going to need you to make a little meme based video of that later.
But I think that's such a good boy.
So for reference, like I, Carl and I got in, in 2020.
So like, just like when they started sending out checks and that for me, that
was the, the moment that I realized, Oh, something's really wrong here with,
how things are working.
Like first of all, they're locking us down.
Now they're sending us checks.
Like something, that's when I just started going deep down the Bitcoin and
monetary rabbit hole for, and I think there's, there's a lot of class of 2020 folks
out there, like a lot who like myself, most of the time has been pretty painful.
Like there was, there was a, you know, a little, there was a pretty, you know,
great run up and everything.
And that's great.
Like, Oh, I'm a, I'm a genius.
And then like all that doubt creeps in when it starts going back down.
And then it, and then it went back up again.
We're like, Oh, genius again, like suck it friends.
And then goes back down again.
And then we languish in the lows of the bear market for what felt like an eternity.
And now it starts pumping back up again.
And, and it's all the way down to whatever it is, 58K gang right now.
I don't know, maybe it's 59 either way.
It's always 58, 58K gangs, right?
But it's like, you're absolutely right that every time that, every time Bitcoin
just takes a dive, you kind of like, at least I still get this little sense of like,
Oh, shit, here we go again.
But then there's like this weird calm that comes over.
And I'm like, well, you know what, I didn't do enough of last time when I had
this feeling was buy more Bitcoin.
And this time I'm not going to make that same mistake.
And I'm going to go out and I'm going to touch some grass and I'm going to hang
out with my wife and my son.
And I'm going to realize that my time horizon is more than just a couple of
days or weeks or months, you know, my plans are measured in centuries and,
or at least decades.
But like, I think that that is a, like it's a really nice forcing factor for
becoming a, as you said, a better person.
Like that's, that's a pretty cool tool.
It's a nice second order effect of Bitcoin and holding Bitcoin is like that
forcing you to think more long term, to truly not sweat the small stuff.
And to realize like, if you just are patient, you will be rewarded, but
patience is a virtue for a reason, right?
It's, it's not easy.
But we're getting more and more patient people.
So that's a good thing.
Make it through a downturn of a year, or like a bear market that lasts a year.
If it wasn't truly savings, right?
So like, if you were, if you were buying something and let's just say that you
had this windfall that came in and you could stay above water for three months,
like you can't own Bitcoin.
It's just too volatile for you because the, you can't hold on to it for a year
and let it get back to where it was.
If it wasn't truly savings that you could plow away forever, because that's
like the definition of somebody who's truly a net producer is they can keep
doing it month and month over again.
And they never have to tap into it because they're making more money the
following month.
And so Bitcoin just finds its hands into the fittest.
That's, that's what it is.
There are investors.
It has no other choice.
There are investors out there who have stories about, you know, a 90% drawdown
on their net worth.
And often it happens to them once.
It's happened to me four times.
Okay.
That's a lot of times, man.
That's a lot of times.
Okay.
It's probably going to happen five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 more times
before I reach the finish line, you know.
What is the finish line?
That was, that was a sound.
I think this ends with us all getting our own planet, you know?
It's a lot like Dune or Mormonism or the combination of the two.
So, so it's, we all have our own wives and there's like multiple or multiple
wives per planet.
I'm just not sure, I'm not sure the Mormonism factors in there, but like,
I'm not sure.
You're going to have that out with you and Carla.
I don't know how you guys are going to split it up, you know, it's not on me.
Yeah.
I, one's, one's more than enough for me, I think.
I don't know if I'm more power to those guys that can, that can handle multiple.
Uh, yeah.
I'll stick with my one.
There was no second best wife for me.
To give us, to give a serious answer, I think the finish line is, um, us having
a seat is sort of at the table of power and being able to, you know, renegotiate
terms and, and rule, and rule sets and be able to have a hand in rulemaking.
And the rulemaking is essentially like, we're bringing a fair distributed rule
set for everybody that can't be changed in the middle of the game.
And that's the thing we're bringing to the table.
And we want that, you know, as far and wide as, as we possibly can.
And to restore, not really to progress, but to restore a lot of the things
about American society that we've lost a lot of principles we've lost along the
way while maintaining sort of our progression in terms of God like
technologies, right?
So like re, recent or America in terms of principles and incentives and then,
you know, continue to progress on AI and robotics and, you know, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera, like the list goes on.
Chris, the list goes on.
I think that's a, again, America is a very special place.
And obviously we're all three Americans.
We have some bias, right?
And America has done some horrible things, of course, as has like literally every
group of people in every government to just about somebody across the long
span of human history.
America is just pretty young.
And so I, but American ideals are really powerful.
And I, I hope that again, like you can't kill an idea, right?
They're bulletproof.
And no matter how much shit our currently corrupt, elected or
unelected bureaucrats throw at us, they can't kill that idea.
And I think that they're, that's what gives me hope for America still is that
there's still enough people out there who say, no, no, no, no.
I know what this is supposed to be like.
I know, because I've read a book that the people that founded our country were
like 18 to 25.
They were young, like truly young men who said, I'm, I'm going to put my life
on the line for this country.
I'm Preston, you've literally put your life on the line for this country.
And people like, people like you, Preston, people like our founding fathers,
they give me a lot of hope because it's like, I mean, then again,
it's like, you look at an 18 to 25 year old now and you're like, oh,
we are so fucked, you know, like there, but, but I still have hope.
I still have hope.
And I think, you know, one thing I would like to explore a little bit because
there's been a lot of talk lately about, like, and there always will be probably
until, until we die in the, you know, red death of the sun.
But there's been a lot of talk lately about, is Bitcoin money?
Is Bitcoin something else?
Is Bitcoin just a network?
I've noticed this debate kind of resurfacing again with some extra force.
And maybe I'm too simplistic, but I always think like, okay, well, lower case
B Bitcoin is money and uppercase B Bitcoin is the monetary network and, you know,
distributed consensus mechanism that allows for this money to be transmitted
and for this rule set to be maintained.
Is Bitcoin money?
And also as a follow up to that, because this has been another hot topic of late,
especially with sailors, new micro strategy orange.
Should people be able to do whatever the fuck they want on Bitcoin?
And is that in any way risking Bitcoin's future as money?
If it is money, is it money?
As well, I believe, and maybe you believe as well.
Yeah, I'll take, I'll go first.
I mean, Bitcoin is an open permissionless global monetary network.
Trying to gatekeep an open permissionless global monetary network is really stupid.
Okay.
Listen, people are going to try every possible thing that can possibly be tried on Bitcoin.
They're going to try it.
And the things that the market will bear will continue to be a part of Bitcoin.
The things that are within consensus and that the market will bear will continue to be a part
of Bitcoin going forward.
Does that mean that if Bitcoin has a, you know, non monetary use case where it's being used for
XYZ data storage application, whether it's identity or land title registry or blah, blah,
blah tokenized this tokenized that, does that mean that it negates the non monetary use case of
Bitcoin?
No, especially not if, you know, the, the vast amount of transactions are being spent on
monetary use cases.
At the same time, though, you know, these non monetary use cases are securing the Bitcoin
network.
So if you're holding Bitcoin, you are getting, because other people are choosing to spend it on
NFT and, you know, digital identity and whatever else it is, you're receiving a marginal,
but tangible benefit in the terms of extra security for your monetary holdings, right?
And so that is a synergistic system that seems to work.
And for what time period or how temporary these non monetary use cases are, I don't know.
And I don't know if any of them will proliferate or will sustain into the future.
I don't think many of the ones we see today, like my take is like probably not.
I don't even think this MSTR decentralized identity thing is going to be around, you know,
but like, so what?
Let them try, you know what I mean?
Let them try and do it.
And we're going to have a free market competition for block space.
And then we're also going to, you should also expect people to maximally use whatever
block space is available because Bitcoin is the commons.
That's the other problem too.
So like, I don't know, there's a lot to chew on.
There's a lot of nuance.
And it's very, I hate these simplistic, are you anti this or you pro that?
You know, bro, agree being silent about cat pictures on the blockchain is because you can
bliss it.
I just want you to know that it's like, shut the fuck, I don't care.
I just don't care.
Well, silence is violence, you know, as we've learned.
Your silence is deafening Walker.
It's deafening.
It is.
That's Tommy behavior whenever you talk like that.
It is.
And Preston, I'm curious of your take on this.
So Bitcoin is definitely money.
Bitcoin is, if we were going to go deeper than that, I mean, it's just, you're storing the
energy that you have spent, and like, let's say I added some type of efficiency to
HODL as he's performing some job and I own that product or service and he's willing to pay me
for it because it's just cheaper for him to pay me for that product or service than him try to
do it himself because I have some type of specialization or competitive edge on providing that
product or service.
He's willing to pay me for it.
He pays me for it and I'm storing and I'm freezing that energy capture that benefited him.
And obviously benefited me because he paid me for it and I'm just freezing that in time.
And I can tap into that anytime I want without any line loss of that energy disappearing.
That's what Bitcoin is.
So if you want a lot of Bitcoin, find a way to add a whole lot of value to as many people
as possible in the world by making a product or service that provides efficiency to them
that they are willing to pay for so that they don't have to do it themselves because it's
harder for them to do it themselves.
Figure out how to do that and you'll have a ton of Bitcoin.
It'll just naturally flow into your hands and if you preserve it in Bitcoin,
you're not going to have it erode like it does in this fiat system.
And based on how much growth rate I suspect and many other people suspect is still going
to occur in this network relative to the fiat network that exists today.
I think it's going to outperform and tremendously outperform a lot of equity that is also
a creative and value for people but not necessarily because of the way it's been priced in fiat
terms against Bitcoin.
Okay, so that's why I think it's money.
With respect to all the decentralized identification stuff that's happening with micro
strategy or using the additional block space for data itself, I have, you know,
there are rules that if you follow these rules, you can participate in the network any way that
you want.
If we think that those rules are unfair or disrupting or destroying the incentive structure
of somebody storing a billion dollars worth of buying power that costs them a couple bucks to
put there, if we think that that incentive is being disrupted and broken or being compromised,
well then we as a community and humans that are participating on this network should do
something about the rule set and try to garner support to change that rule set.
And if we don't get enough people to change that rule set and we're saying this is the left
and right limits and there's people saying, okay, well, I can play inside of those left
and right limits.
Well, they should be allowed to play inside of those left and right limits any way that
they want.
And you know what, if we actually believe the incentives are still intact, which I believe
they are, because you can store a billion dollars for like next to nothing and I don't
have to worry about the government like confiscating those that billion billions in buying power.
That's why the incentive structure is not being compromised today.
Despite these swoopty things you can do with the data.
Well, then I'm just going to take a step back and say, well, let's let this play out.
Let's see if the market's willing to pay for some of these things on the block space.
Now, micro strategies orange specifically.
I believe they're still going to have, if they're performing some type of KYC activity
in order to provide an orange checkmark that's being written into the block space,
that KYC activity is going to have to be signed by a master micro strategy account
in order for that, you know, orange check to be integrated with the Microsoft system or any
other type of enterprise software for verification validation to take place.
So is that decentralized in and of itself?
That activity is not for the KYC.
The fact that they're storing the hash of the data for the verification on the blockchain
is a decentralized use of storing that hash.
Yes.
So when I'm looking at it, I'm saying, okay, like there's, there's something there.
They don't have to store that data or they don't have to worry about that data being
compromised once they write it into the truth chain.
But as far as the actual KYC part of it, there's still a, there's still a centralizing
force there where you have to trust micro strategy in order to perform that KYC and then
sign it with a master account for it to be valid.
So, I mean, am I super excited about it?
Yeah.
Do I think that it could catch on?
Maybe.
I don't know.
Do I think that the way that Microsoft currently does identification, verification and all
of the data and backend and having centralized servers that is it better than that?
Probably.
Is it 10x better than that?
I don't know.
And that's usually a really good way to do that.
And that's usually a really good way to kind of look at whether this is a going back to
what is money.
If you're going to create a product or service that is going to make a lot of money and send
a lot of Bitcoin into your coffers because you're creating value for society, you typically
want it to be about a 10x value prop for anybody that's using legacy software or a legacy system
over what they've got right now.
I don't know if that's a 10x value capture.
Maybe it is.
Let's see what happens.
Let's let the market test it out.
Here's the thing that you would think all Bitcoiners would be for.
This thing called a free and open market.
Let's see what happens.
Right?
In regards to the change in rule set that Preston was talking about, I do think that,
yeah, of course, people can come together and they can lobby others to change the rule set.
But we should have a culture where that is rare.
It's actually pretty rare to make changes.
And then we also should have a culture where we're building towards some endpoint where
no more changes occur because the change process is political in nature.
And it's, you know, Bitcoin is not meant to be a political system.
And so we need to rid ourselves of that at some point in time.
And again, on the rare point, that means that if we are going to have these changes occur
rarely, that you might have to sit with things in Bitcoin that are uncomfortable or even lead.
You'd believe that Bitcoin is broken for much longer than you might want.
And you're just going to have to stop being a little bitch and fucking deal with that.
Okay.
Freedom means other people get to do things you don't like.
That's what freedom is.
If you're European, it might be the first time you've ever heard the concept.
Welcome.
Hilarious.
Two things on that.
One, there's a great quote by Mises that's basically like, the free market means that,
and freedom in general, means that you have the right to be foolish.
That's what it means.
You have the right to make mistakes.
And it's very, very true.
The other point is that I think people can be very, very, very, very, very, very, very,
very, very foolish.
I'm not saying that I'm making a mistake, I'm just saying that I'm trying to, I'm trying
to make the right decision.
I'm trying to make the right decision.
But I think people get thrown off by the idea of ossification thinking that it's like a decision
that is made versus a process that happens.
Yes.
a lot with SMTP. And so I think it's like, and it's also important to separate, I think
in this debate, so much nuance gets lost because people are like, well, you know, you don't
want Bitcoin to change. Well, don't you understand that software needs maintenance? And it's
like, of course it does. And we can also separate change, like massive changes that you're talking
about hodl, hodl, which can take a, or Canon should take a great deal of time and deliberation
with the regular upkeep and maintenance of software that is very much required to maintain
a functioning code base. Like, but so much of it just kind of devolves into like, either
you're a non-technical Luddite or you are a tinkering engineer who just wants to put
your mark on something. And I think most of the truth is probably in the middle. And I
think that the people that are working on around and for Bitcoin generally have pretty
good intentions, like unless we're just fully infiltrated by spooks. But even if that's
the case, the beautiful thing about Bitcoin is that ultimately, if people are operating
in their self interests, the game theory is such that they will not want to make any changes
that break Bitcoin. Because if you have any sort of material amount of wealth saved in
Bitcoin, that would be very much not in your best interests. And that's kind of a beautiful
thing. It's like, you're okay, like you're shooting, you know, you're cutting off your
nose despite your face, basically. And so it's, I have a lot of, I have a lot of trust
in this trustless system, may I say, but yeah, freedom means the freedom to make mistakes
and be foolish and be a fucking idiot and do stuff that hurts you so that you get smarter.
And that's how America was able to leapfrog everyone else in the entire fucking world
in a couple hundred years, being just a colony of fucking insurrectionists, like because
we just fucked around and found out and then fucked around again, found out more and iterated
and iterated and got better. Like that's, that's what freedom means. Anyway, get off
my little soapbox now.
I'm one other thing I kind of wanted to, to generally talk about like was okay, with
regard to the kind of samurai and also now that you saw that Phoenix wallet pulled out
of the US was sobbing pulling out of the US, like, yes, you can use a VPN for certain of
these functions like sure, but the larger trend of that, I'm curious if you think we have
some lawmakers who are vocally pro Bitcoin. And I think that that's, that's a great thing.
It is certainly a tiny minority of them. Do you think we start to see a trend where again,
lawmakers, elected officials get smart by force, not by choice and realize, you know,
the whole look, you're going to push innovation offshore, which we very much see happening,
like it's not just a trope, it's a reality. I mean, America literally pushed a lot of
innovation and manufacturing offshore in a very purposeful way so we could export our
inflation to other parts of the world. And again, being that consumer versus a net producer
as we were previously, do you think we start to see a change here? Or do you think in some
respects, the dye has been, you know, the dice have been cast and that you're too far
gone. I think we're certainly too far gone to start onboarding manufacturing back to
the US, but that is a different sort of capital intensity and workforce skill level that is
required for a lot of that versus software, which is borderless. It would be a shame if
the US closed itself off from so much of this because people are terrified of a, what is
supposed to be a country that operates under the rule of law, which seems to be operating
under the rule of just rules. Now, not even laws, just rulemaking versus lawmaking. Like
that's what's scary to me. It's like people being scared that they may fall under a certain
rule that is not even necessarily like codified law or been really clarified in a meaningful
way by any courts, but they're just like, I'm not taking that risk. I don't want to
go to jail and I don't blame people. I would, I don't want to go, I've got a family. I don't
want to go to jail. Like, where do you think we're at with that? And again, when it comes
to bucking that trend, does it just come down to, okay, either high level changes at leadership
or parallel systems being built out by people who say, well, maybe I do go to jail, but
you know, I'm okay with that. It's a loaded question I know.
I'm thinking through it. I'll go, I'll go on this. So at the end of the day, it goes
back to a comment that I, that I made earlier in the show, which is, I think that you're,
you're large, when you look at how much financialization and how much banking happens here in the United
States relative to other parts of the world. This is a massive industry inside the United
States is banking and just finance in general. If you don't think that they're behind the
FinCEN proposal and the execution of all of this to force, if you're going to play ball
in the United States, it's going to be through some type of custody service from a payment
standpoint. And if it's not custodied by some entity on your behalf inside the United States,
you're not welcome here. And we're going to use everything we've got with the DOJ through
the FinCEN, all the stuff that's gone through with FinCEN to enforce and to scare the living
hell out of anybody that's trying to do to give an individual the ability to custody from
a payment standpoint. Okay, that's the message. And I don't think that they're going to back
down from that regardless of who's in party or who the, who the, who the party is. And
the reason why is because behind these politicians are the banks who are scared to death of this.
Okay. And if you think that they're just going to not pay off the next person who's, who's
in charge, whether that's Republican or Democrat, it's because you're super naive and you don't
understand how the game is being played. So you just really have to look at the incentives
to understand why the actions that we're seeing. Now, all the countries that don't have deep
banking and financial services as a core industry, I think what you're going to find is they
are going to open, they're going to be welcoming these, these developers and people with open
arms to come on into our domains and our jurisdictions and build, come here and build.
Now I hope I'm really wrong about that. I hope that some of this gets reversed and,
you know, with maybe a new administration, maybe we see a tide and a change of the guard
with respect to some of this and a lot of the FinCEN proposal gets unwound. I'm very
suspect of that. And it's not me trying to be a pessimist. It's me just looking at the
incentive structure and looking at the size of the financial industry. And I'm saying
they cannot, they're going to be dead in a doornail if they just let this take root.
So I think those are, I think that's the, that's the game theory kind of playing out
right before our eyes. That doesn't mean I like it. In fact, I actually hate it. I think
it's very bad for America and any other developed nation state that's, that's leaning into these
policies. But I think with enough time, it's, you know, it's a losing battle. That is a
losing hand, but it's a, it's a, it's a short term stop the bleeding hand that's being played.
So with the exception of one of the samurai devs, I believe that all of the samurai guys
and all of the whirlpool people were outside the US, right? And so the US hegemony is so
large, the dollar hegemony is so large that it doesn't matter where in the world you
are. The extremely long dick of Uncle Sam can fuck you from anywhere, right? So you have
to be very careful, even if you're not an American, when you're interacting with Americans
and when you're interacting with US dollars, if you're doing those two things, you are
going to be subject to US regulating authorities, right? Like number one. And then number two,
I think Preston is dead on the money about, you know, them, the bank, it's Wall Street
and it's DC and they're both against Bitcoin as medium of exchange. And DC is especially
against Bitcoin as a unit of account, obviously, right? Because that's the dollar's role. So
is medium of exchange. That's the dollar's role, how they both see it. And they don't
want to let Bitcoin escape from the walled garden they think they're creating. They're
trying to get OIs Bitcoin. They're trying to co-opt to Bitcoin. It's, it should be obvious
to everybody who's paying attention and store value is meaningless. It's for a long time,
we've been saying that like Wall Street and Bitcoin, we are ambivalent. We have a totally
ambivalent relationship. And the reason why is because we are only aligned on number go
up. They are not aligned on freedom tech in the slightest. And as Bitcoiners, obviously
that's anathema to some of our worldview, right? But at the same time, listen, I mean,
you're a meat puppet that lives on government land and like they can throw you in a cage
if you're doing things that are deemed to be illegal. So you got to be smart and you
got to, you got to be legal in your operations and you got to like go through the long journey
of seeing, seeing Bitcoin through. And if it does reach a period of co-option, attempted
co-option, shadow prohibition, whatever we might be facing down the bar, whatever we're
looking down the barrel of right now, you need to be in it playing the long game. You
need to be in it for the long term because this is a generational project. And it's not
like we're, it's not like it's going to be easy, bro, separate money and state. It's
going to be fucking hard. It's going to take a long time. It's going to take a lot of human
effort. Like if you showed up thinking, oh, next month we're separating money and state,
like I'm sorry, but that's, that's not going to happen. This is a really big deal. And
the weird thing is at the same time that all this is going on and this is the backdrop,
right, we're going to be getting rich in terms of number go up, but we're going to be like
getting rich and losing freedom, getting rich and losing freedoms. And it's going to feel
weird and dysphoric, but my, my optimistic perspective of it is that it's not permanent,
that it's a temporary state of affairs and that as Bitcoiners become richer, that they
will be able to have a seat at the table of power and be able to help rewrite some of
these rule sets to say what is and is not fair. I mean, look at like the people that are in
power now, a lot of them were, you know, Woodstock hippies or they were part of the
weather underground or the Black Panther movement or whatever. And now they all have a seat
at the table. Now they're all telling us, you know, how we have to live and they're
wokifying our society. So they won. They did a long march through the institution similar
to the Maoist insurrection in China and they won. Good for them, but you know, they're
also extremely old and it's not going to last very long, right? Nothing is, nothing is permanent
in American life. And yeah, we have a, it's a long journey ahead of us. So hunker down
for the winter.
You mentioned just the store of value doesn't really matter. And I think you meant that
in the context, I believe of just like, it doesn't matter to the, it doesn't matter to
the people who are pulling the strings. It doesn't matter to Wall Street, doesn't matter
to DC. Like they don't care too much. Is that what you meant? Or more like general sense.
Their store of value is Apple stock and houses in the Hamptons and foreign real estate and
Cayman shell corporations. That's their, those are their stores of value, right? And
Bitcoin and also Bitcoin. Bitcoin will be one of their stores of value as well. You know,
I mean, it's, it's an infinite container for wealth. It's extremely good at storing
value. They're going to want Bitcoin too. So I, I, what I'm, what I'm saying is that
store of value doesn't allow them to, you know, weaponize political ideology against
rivals the same way medium exchange does. Look at what happened with Russia and the
Swift system when they're action against Ukraine took place, right? The minute they
invaded Ukraine, we cut them off a swift, swift, we weaponize our treasury system against
them. The dollar is, the dollar is a weapon. And once you see it, you can't unsee it.
It's America's largest weapon. You know, the nuclear arsenal is second.
Yeah. That's kind of a, it's very true. And it's also very dark, right? And it's, it's
also the weapon that is easiest to, to use without people saying you're, you're attacking
us, right? Because hey, we're not shedding any blood, right? We're not, we're not beheading
anyone. We're just cutting you off. But it's like, it all comes back to, do you really
have any freedoms if you don't have the freedom to transact freely? Because anything else
you want to do like, okay, freedom of speech. Great. Well, where do you want to speak? Like
do you want to, do you want to go somewhere? You want, you want to, you want to, you want
to go to fly somewhere and speak at a protest? Well, I'm sorry, your, that card's been declined.
Also you're on the no fly list. Do you want to say it online? Well, sorry, your ISP is
now blocking you and we're not going to accept your payments and your bank accounts have
been frozen. You can't even afford those payments anyway. Like you want to, a freedom of religion.
You want to build a church? I'm sorry, you have your accounts have been frozen again.
Like so much of it. And it sounds, I think people sometimes come after Bitcoiners a bit
because they say, thank you, you're being overly reductionist. You're being too simplistic.
You're saying that Bitcoin fixes this, Bitcoin fixes this, but like, look at all these problems
we have. How can Bitcoin possibly fix this? And I think that what they miss is that when
the base layer of what you're working with is so irrevocably broken, nothing, nothing
else matters. Anything else you try to do is a bandaid. It's not, you're not curing the
disease. You're, you're slapping a bandaid on a oozing ulcer that is just going to keep
growing and growing and growing. It's not going to, it might make you feel a little
bit better for a second. It might look good. It might be like, ah, yes, I'm doing something,
but you're not. You're just, you're just pretending that the deeper disease doesn't exist or you're
completely ignorant of it in the first place. But on that somewhat dark, ulcerated note,
I'd like to end, uh, and be conscious of both of your scarce time, which I again, appreciate
you sharing with me, but I want to end on kind of a positive note. And so maybe just,
uh, what makes you hopeful? Um, or if, if that one you'd rather not answer, uh, what
piece of uplifting advice would you give to somebody who is looking at the world right
now and saying, man, everything seems just screwed. And like there doesn't seem to be
a way out of this. And how do I possibly have hope in a time when it's so easy to be nihilistic?
I guess I can go first. So, uh, you know, people ask me all the time, Oh my God, why
are you not, you know, super worried about this or whatever? You know, when I went to
combat, it sucked. This is pretty much the worst experience a person could ever go through.
And it was, uh, horrific. It was, uh, the location was terrible. What I experienced was terrible,
but what that experience gave me was context. Um, you know, if you're going to paint a picture,
you need the poles of the colors in order to create the contrast in order to paint the
picture. For me in my life, when I look at that experience that I went through, um, it's
provided this backdrop in this context for happiness and abundance and, uh, how bad things
could be and how amazing they can be. Um, what's your, what people are going through
right now, they might be struggling really bad. Um, and what I would say is you're just,
it's, it's the context to your life's picture that you're painting yourself. And you have
this massive opportunity to harness this thing. Uh, since I found Bitcoin a decade ago, like
nearly a decade ago, my life just keeps getting better every single day. It really does. And
I'm not saying that to like, uh, sound like a jerk. I'm saying it because other people
can have this same opportunity. Um, as long as they are producing some type of excess
in their life and they can preserve it and freeze it into this thing that's going to
help be their salvation is there, is there moving forward in their life that they're
not going to continue to be robbed from, uh, with the work and the energy that they've
already performed in that they can cash that in whenever they want to, whenever they want
to cash it in the future. So the future is very bright from a macro standpoint, you're
looking at what these countries are going to go. There's going to be hardship. There's
going to be pain. There's going to be, uh, a lot of variance and volatility in what's
taking place with this reset. And you know what, that's life. That's any life. Um, that's
nature that you're going to be going through such volatility. So I guess my recommendation
for people is embrace the chaos. Enjoy the chaos. When you have a bad day, it's just
providing that backdrop and that contrast for you to appreciate tomorrow when it's better.
Um, and, uh, I, I'm just, I feel so blessed to be a part of this movement, to be around
people like both of you two. And, uh, and I just, you know, it's, it's in the eye of
the beholder as to where you're going to focus your energy, what you're going to work on
and how you're going to provide value for other people that's going to bring you true
pleasure in your life. We, we, we're talking about like the finish line, the finish line
is how can you add more value and, and, uh, abundance and happiness to other people's
lives? Because in that process, what you're going to find is you're making yourself extremely
happy and fulfilled yourself. So like the, what an opportunity to be sitting here at
these crossroads, uh, in, in this great reset to figure out a way to re-engineer and rewire
the world for efficiency and abundance for others. Like what an opportunity.
Hey man, I think, um, the biggest piece of advice I would give to anybody, especially
somebody who's young is tell the truth just broadly. Because I think a lot of us are used
to using lies to get through, uh, to make compromises, to deal with things that are very
hard to cope with. And I think those lies build up a lot of dead wood around us and
cause us to be unable to move freely. And they cause us to be unable to live the life that
we're supposed to live. And I don't know if you've seen this with a family member, but
you know, I've been there with people who've lived their life in this manner at the end
of their life when they're on hospice care. And it's like there's a boulder sitting on
their chest, they can't get out from under. And the reality of what they could have been
is crushing them in that moment. And if you've ever seen that and experienced that, uh, you
will do anything not to become that. And speaking the truth out loud is scary. It's why people
don't do it. Um, because when you start saying things that are true, a lot of the lies that
you've built up around yourself are going to come tumbling down and you're not going
to be able to live in the dissonance any longer and you're going to be exposed and vulnerable.
Right. But also life becomes very beautiful. Suddenly the right people, they gravitate
towards you. You find yourself in better environments, the right environments. You find yourself on
the path that you're supposed to be. If things are very clear to you, you're looking out
in the distance and your life's trajectory is obvious. It's probably because you're on
somebody else's path. If you're on your own path, it'll be sort of murky. You'll be feeling
your way through. So start saying what you think is true. Don't just type it anonymously
on Twitter, say it out loud with your full chest, stand behind it, say it to the people
in your real life, and it will take you where you need to go. I promise you. And then in
terms of like what makes me hopeful, it's the thing that makes me the most hopeful is
all of the people that are waking up to what's going on in the world. And it's not just in
Bitcoin, but it's everywhere now. There was a Palestinian, Israeli protests the other
day. I don't know where in the world it was, but it was a bunch of young people. So it's
probably on some college campus. It might have been at UCLA. And the Israeli side and
the Palestinian side were both chanting, fuck Joe Biden. That's beautiful, man. That's
America. They both hated the president for totally different reasons. I mean, come on.
If that doesn't make you hopeful that the American spirit is still alive. We're an unruly
people. We're supposed to be unruly and free and dirty and unwashed and crass. That is the
American ethic and ethos live free, baby or die. Okay.
I love it. What a beautiful note to wrap up on. One thing I will just point out is that
Preston did say I have the beholder, but I guess a hodl, you'd say I have the be hodler
and that sounds totally normal and natural to you, which is fine.
Yeah. It sounds a little gay. It sounds like a gay thing. You said it. You said it, not
me. Well, guys, I want to thank you both a lot. You're two people in this space who
I've had the pleasure of meeting in person a number of times now. And it's really, it's
always enlightening talking to you both. And I appreciate the way you approach things.
And I appreciate your positivity and also your, your ruthless, Jesus can't speak now,
ruthless logic that comes across because I think that that's really important. And I
think it's important for also for people to hear these sorts of hopeful messages. Again,
there's a lot of shit like shit. Excuse me. There's a lot of shit going down. Whoa.
Keep it going. No, don't take a sip. That was the radio voice. There's a lot of shit
going down. No, but there is a lot of shit going down, but there's so many reasons to
be hopeful. There's like not a small one of them being the people that you have a chance
to meet through this incredible space. Yeah. So I want to thank you both. Thank you for
your time. I'll link your no-ster and Twitter, I guess, in the show notes. And I look forward
to seeing you both in the flesh soon. And thank you both again for your time.
Bro, before we go, I'm just going to say I was in the UK with Preston and Jeff Booth.
And I left the bar at 3.30 AM. And these savages were still going hard, bro. I left
before them. Jeff Booth was partying like an animal. It was amazing. I mean, honestly,
the Canadians will surprise you. You never know what they're going to pull out of. They're
an unruly bunch too. They're just more polite about their unruliness, I think. There's no
way I could let Jeff Booth stay out later than you have to. Come on. I love it. I love
it. So good. Well, I look forward to closing down the bar and having Preston, you and Jeff
outlast me next time we see each other. Yes. Very important highlight their haughtiness.
Yeah. And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast. If you are
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