1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,620 I think the strategic Bitcoin reserves, they are important in that it goes and shows a wide acceptance that Bitcoin is a legitimate thing and the tech legitimately works. 2 00:00:11,820 --> 00:00:16,100 You know, there's two sides to this. One is legitimate in the sense as we're going to allow it to be a thing. 3 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,420 We value it. We recognize why other people value it. 4 00:00:19,820 --> 00:00:24,120 And then the other part of it being we recognize that the technology actually works well enough. 5 00:00:24,220 --> 00:00:26,340 It's going to keep working in maybe another 10 years. 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,640 Now, of course, I might be sort of personal, give you five reasons why, well, maybe it's not going to work so well in 30 years. 7 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:38,740 But it's certainly not so busted that it's likely to fail in five, 10 years. 8 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:46,940 Now, a counterexample of that is imagine you had created Bitcoin back in the 90s, when we were very early into cryptography. 9 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,180 You could have made the plausible arguments in the 90s. 10 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:52,440 You know what? We're not really sure cryptography works. 11 00:00:52,440 --> 00:01:01,320 Like we're putting all our trust in this Bitcoin thing, you know, but in the 90s, you probably would have picked cryptography algorithms that were broken later. 12 00:01:01,500 --> 00:01:05,120 And that could have ended quite badly depending on how you navigated those breakages. 13 00:01:05,460 --> 00:01:13,780 This is also, I got to point out why it would be very surprising to see governments make, say, a strategic Monero reserve or strategic Zcash reserve. 14 00:01:13,780 --> 00:01:25,520 Those coins have their purpose, but one of the choices they've made is they've vastly increased the technical risk of failure because the privacy check means you're really relying on the math being correct. 15 00:01:25,740 --> 00:01:28,100 In Bitcoin, you're relying on arithmetic being correct. 16 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:35,620 Any smart six-year-old could add up the numbers on a Bitcoin transaction and, like, figure out whether or not it's correct. 17 00:01:35,820 --> 00:01:39,080 A smart six-year-old could do that even without you telling them what it is. 18 00:01:43,780 --> 00:01:48,780 Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs. 19 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,440 My name is Walker, and this is The Bitcoin Podcast. 20 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,960 Bitcoin continues to create new blocks every 10 minutes, 21 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,780 and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin. 22 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,640 If you are listening to this right now, remember, you are still early. 23 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,700 If you're feeling the urge to support this show with some sats, 24 00:02:05,820 --> 00:02:09,660 quick reminder that you can do that on Fountain app by boosting this show 25 00:02:09,660 --> 00:02:13,360 or becoming a paid subscriber, or give it a zap on Noster, 26 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,400 or don't, Bitcoin doesn't care. 27 00:02:15,660 --> 00:02:17,600 This episode was a live stream 28 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,920 with the one and only Peter Todd 29 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:22,020 at the Rumble booth in Vegas. 30 00:02:22,500 --> 00:02:24,580 The audio is a little bit weird at times, 31 00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:25,860 so I do apologize for that, 32 00:02:25,980 --> 00:02:27,660 but hopefully you still enjoy the content. 33 00:02:28,100 --> 00:02:29,980 Peter and I get into a bunch of different topics 34 00:02:29,980 --> 00:02:31,600 from the HBO documentary 35 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,600 where they claimed he was Satoshi Nakamoto 36 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,520 to what he's working on with open timestamps 37 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,440 to his thoughts on tail emissions. 38 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:39,520 Shout out to Peter. 39 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:41,760 This was a very impromptu rip 40 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,340 and I appreciate him sharing his scarce time with me. 41 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,840 Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk with Peter Todd. 42 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:51,620 Greetings and salutations. 43 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:52,840 I am Walker. 44 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,780 I am joined here by Craig Wright, I believe. 45 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,860 Someone who is not Satoshi Nakamoto is all I know. 46 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:06,600 Peter Todd, star of the hit HBO hit piece about Bitcoin. 47 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:08,740 Peter, thank you for joining me. 48 00:03:08,740 --> 00:03:14,280 We were, I was a little bit hungover this morning and I don't want to blame you, but you were there. 49 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,580 And so I'm going to kind of, I'm going to blame you. 50 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:17,580 I didn't stop you. 51 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:19,240 You know, I believe in freedom. 52 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,440 You may have been, that you do, that you do. 53 00:03:21,860 --> 00:03:24,640 So, you know, Peter, I always enjoy talking to you. 54 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,420 As we were saying before this, like, I never know if I'm being trolled by you. 55 00:03:27,940 --> 00:03:28,460 I don't think. 56 00:03:28,460 --> 00:03:28,680 You are. 57 00:03:28,860 --> 00:03:29,300 I am. 58 00:03:29,500 --> 00:03:33,620 I don't think the HBO guys knew that you were trolling them. 59 00:03:33,620 --> 00:03:39,920 at what point in that whole process did you realize like these guys are trying to make this 60 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:46,940 into a story that's going to make my life a pain in the ass well so my theory on this 61 00:03:46,940 --> 00:03:52,800 is i suspect that they set out to film a documentary on the rise bitcoin and 62 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:59,320 they probably filmed you know 5 000 hours footage as you say 5 000 yeah that's that's kind of a 63 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,560 normal number for... 64 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:02,320 That's mind-blowing. 65 00:04:02,620 --> 00:04:04,660 Obviously, you have not done video production. 66 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:06,980 Clearly, I'm a novice at this. 67 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:08,620 No, it is like, 68 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,040 even just with me, they just film 69 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,160 hours and hours and hours of interviews, 70 00:04:13,460 --> 00:04:15,260 talking about all kinds of different things, talking about the same thing 71 00:04:15,260 --> 00:04:16,760 over and over again, and 72 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,820 this seemed totally normal to me, 73 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,600 but it was only at the very end, 74 00:04:22,420 --> 00:04:23,260 the last interview, 75 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:24,680 towards the end of the last interview, 76 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:26,740 then they finally bring up the Satoshi stuff. 77 00:04:27,500 --> 00:04:28,820 And my suspicion is, 78 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:36,360 Of course, they filmed all this footage, started trying to edit it, realized it sucked, and then added the Stoshi thing last minute. 79 00:04:37,260 --> 00:04:43,100 Now, Samson Mao claims otherwise, but it's just not the impression I got from them. 80 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:51,480 And also, this is why I am not sure, like, I should say, I suspect that they fully understood they were being trolled. 81 00:04:52,780 --> 00:04:54,680 Because, remember, they're entertainers. 82 00:04:54,680 --> 00:05:01,220 they're not quote-unquote documentary filmmakers even though technically are maybe they are but 83 00:05:01,220 --> 00:05:06,380 their job is entertainment and if they go see someone trolling them they're probably thinking 84 00:05:06,380 --> 00:05:10,240 all right how are we going to turn this into entertaining footage and the answer to that is 85 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:16,460 often yeah there's a way but i mean i've got to say it was pretty cool to like i watched this and 86 00:05:16,460 --> 00:05:22,400 as it came out uh you made me laugh countless times throughout it and i realized too i was like 87 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,040 okay this is going to make Peter's life a pain in the ass probably. 88 00:05:27,380 --> 00:05:28,020 Hildly annoying. 89 00:05:28,340 --> 00:05:34,980 Yeah yeah but like at the same time it was like okay this was on the front page of you know HBO 90 00:05:34,980 --> 00:05:39,160 like this was really widely publicized it got a ton of publicity. 91 00:05:39,820 --> 00:05:47,020 I was told that it was I think it was on the order like their first their most popular thing 92 00:05:47,020 --> 00:05:50,180 in the documentary category for, you know, two or three days. 93 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:55,320 And overall, something like, say, third most total views for a brief period. 94 00:05:56,620 --> 00:05:59,260 Obviously, you know, I'm going to go lose in the long run to Game of Thrones. 95 00:05:59,620 --> 00:06:03,020 But I mean, that's a hard one to measure. 96 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:04,620 Yeah, that's a little hard, you know. 97 00:06:05,100 --> 00:06:06,500 I mean, like, that's kind of incredible. 98 00:06:06,700 --> 00:06:11,020 Did you have, I mean, do you think this was ultimately a beneficial thing? 99 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:12,240 Like, was this good for Bitcoin? 100 00:06:12,500 --> 00:06:13,580 Like, it probably was not. 101 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:15,920 For Bitcoin, I think it's good for Bitcoin. 102 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:24,300 And this is one of the reasons why, you know, when they brought up, I mean, Chris, one way I could approach this is, you know, they bring it up and I just immediately go shut it down. 103 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,880 Right. Like that's that's a way I could have handled it. 104 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:36,560 But I thought it would be much more valuable to play along with it, to control it, hope, you know, hoping that they would take the bait. 105 00:06:36,660 --> 00:06:39,680 Although, like I say, I don't I don't think like, you know, they're smart people. 106 00:06:39,700 --> 00:06:45,240 They know what I'm doing. Yeah. And I you know, when they say they believe this, I don't believe I don't believe it for one second. 107 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:52,120 you know he's smart enough to know fully well he's playing a role too and the good thing about it 108 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:57,480 though is he gets all this press and then the press consistently say well obviously this is 109 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:04,860 nonsense and my hope is that the next round of director when he goes to you know hbo 2.0 or 110 00:07:04,860 --> 00:07:09,420 whatever it works out to be they're gonna go hate to say this but the other guy already did it better 111 00:07:09,420 --> 00:07:13,120 than you and it's just not gonna you know the magic's gone it ain't gonna happen again we're 112 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:17,140 not going to do another Sochi documentary. Now, I've heard there is actually one that's happened, 113 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:22,920 but it sounds like it got way less press. Interesting. I mean, it's fascinating to watch 114 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:28,200 this because it's like this. I mean, you've been involved in Bitcoin. Well, if you listen to the 115 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:34,380 documentary, you know, 2008, obviously. But I mean, you've been involved in developing Bitcoin 116 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:40,600 for a very, very long time. One of the original folks there. Is it kind of wild to see this? I 117 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:47,560 I mean, could you ever have imagined at that point when you're like in these rooms, you know, like some of the footage that they had, the old footage was pretty cool. 118 00:07:47,660 --> 00:07:50,640 Like you guys are just hacking away in these, you know, back rooms together. 119 00:07:51,060 --> 00:07:54,120 Could you ever have imagined that you'd be like sitting in a giant conference? 120 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:54,520 No, easily. 121 00:07:54,740 --> 00:07:55,100 So you did. 122 00:07:55,100 --> 00:07:55,420 Yeah, yeah. 123 00:07:55,680 --> 00:08:09,960 I mean, obviously, it may not be the highest probability outcome, but quite famous, like I think was Al Finney as an example, correctly estimated Bitcoin price within an order of magnitude or two now. 124 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,780 purely by going, well, all right, how big could it get? 125 00:08:14,220 --> 00:08:15,740 What's the size of world economy? 126 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,080 What percentage of stuff could be in Bitcoin? 127 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:19,280 Let's look at gold. 128 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,340 These are all predictable things. 129 00:08:22,020 --> 00:08:23,820 You just got to sit down there with some numbers 130 00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:25,140 and make some reasonable estimations. 131 00:08:25,660 --> 00:08:29,720 This is also why I will, and sort of the counterpoint, say, 132 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,800 well, obviously, Bitcoin isn't actually going to the moon 133 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,540 because the world economy is not big enough 134 00:08:35,540 --> 00:08:37,120 to get that much more growth. 135 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,380 You know, will Bitcoin add another zero to the price? 136 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:42,520 Plausible. 137 00:08:42,980 --> 00:08:47,000 Will Bitcoin add another zero on top of that? 138 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:47,880 Plausible. 139 00:08:48,540 --> 00:08:50,980 But will Bitcoin add five more zeros? 140 00:08:51,260 --> 00:08:55,180 Only if you're measuring in US dollars, not real value. 141 00:08:55,820 --> 00:08:58,820 Like the value of Bitcoin in terms of Big Macs, 142 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,360 unless McDonald's has some amazing improvements in efficiency, 143 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,220 it's not going to go up that much 144 00:09:04,220 --> 00:09:06,800 because the entire world economy just isn't that big. 145 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:16,160 I mean, it's an interesting perspective to take. It's like we have this fiat measuring stick, which is inherently flawed. And I mean, okay, I want to ask you something. 146 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:25,780 Well, I mean, well, this is why the McDonald's like Big Mac index exists, precisely because McDonald's is really standardized. And that's actually a reasonable way to measure different economies. 147 00:09:25,780 --> 00:09:31,120 and it turns out that dollars they can print out of thin air or not even print, just keystrokes, 148 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:36,780 are not. Do you subscribe to this hyper-Bitcoinization idea that at a certain point, 149 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:41,020 it's like, it is ubiquitous. It is the only money. I mean, do you think fiat goes away or do you 150 00:09:41,020 --> 00:09:44,940 think we're always saddled with fiat? Well, I will say that is a possible outcome. 151 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:52,100 Okay. It is clearly a possible outcome. It is not guaranteed. And I don't think the incentives 152 00:09:52,100 --> 00:09:54,100 guarantee that happening. 153 00:09:54,100 --> 00:09:56,300 And one reason why I would say that is, 154 00:09:56,300 --> 00:09:59,320 of course, we didn't wind up with that happening with gold. 155 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,520 Now maybe the tech is different. 156 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,360 Maybe the fact you can easily send a Bitcoin 157 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,540 over the internet is enough to make it 158 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,340 be hyper-Bitcoinization rather than hyper-goldization. 159 00:10:10,340 --> 00:10:22,500 But it all clear how it turns out The other thing I think Bitcoiners underestimate is governments aren that incompetent Like we all want to believe they all incompetent 160 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,100 But like or not, you know, the U.S. dollar, as an example, 161 00:10:25,220 --> 00:10:26,700 has existed for a very long time. 162 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,520 And obviously they're doing something right enough 163 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,600 that, you know, easy 50-50 chance it exists in another 100 years. 164 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:39,400 Do you enjoy the fact or do you, 165 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,940 what do you think about the fact that governments are now potentially stacking Bitcoin? 166 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,180 Like, is that was this also just inevitable? 167 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,180 Well, you realize that's actually a sign of governments being competent. 168 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:52,440 OK, touche. So they're not as dumb as they look. 169 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:53,500 Yeah, they're not as dumb as they look. 170 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:58,020 Like, now, I got to make the point that, for instance, for the U.S. government, 171 00:10:58,220 --> 00:11:03,080 they have enough debts in a big enough economy and diversified enough economy. 172 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:08,620 If they started really aggressively stacking Bitcoin, you kind of you kind of wonder what's really going on. 173 00:11:08,620 --> 00:11:13,320 because the U.S. government can borrow money on reasonable terms. 174 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,120 So, you know, I mean, let's look at, say, the strategic oil reserve. 175 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,200 That is a physical asset that you absolutely need. 176 00:11:23,580 --> 00:11:26,500 If you don't have it, really bad stuff happens really quickly. 177 00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:30,880 Like, it makes sense to have a strategic reserve of oil because it's a useful thing. 178 00:11:31,420 --> 00:11:34,720 Does that logic really apply to Bitcoin that well? 179 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,320 Sort of, but it's not in the same category. 180 00:11:38,620 --> 00:11:42,220 I mean, it's not unlike having a strategic gold reserve. 181 00:11:42,460 --> 00:11:45,680 Yeah, it kind of helps in certain cases, but you ain't going to eat your gold. 182 00:11:47,540 --> 00:11:51,760 Would it impose any sort of additional accountability on government? 183 00:11:52,460 --> 00:11:55,740 Or would it just allow them perhaps to be even less accountable? 184 00:11:56,020 --> 00:11:58,740 Well, if Bitcoin goes up and up, yeah, less accountable. 185 00:11:59,260 --> 00:12:05,540 So actually, I believe Bhutan is an example of this, where they famously started mining kind of in secret. 186 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,100 We find out a few years into this. 187 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:09,460 oh, actually, they've got a bunch of Bitcoin. 188 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,680 And from what I've heard, they started spending it. 189 00:12:13,860 --> 00:12:16,440 Because the knowledge kind of filters out, 190 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:18,540 political pressure's on them to do something with the money. 191 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:24,540 I'm not going to make the claim that for sure they're spending it recklessly. 192 00:12:25,140 --> 00:12:27,620 But it sounds like maybe that's what's happened. 193 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:29,1000 It's interesting. 194 00:12:30,180 --> 00:12:33,880 Okay, so this has been a very big topic of conversation 195 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:35,460 with the strategic reserves and everything. 196 00:12:35,780 --> 00:12:36,820 I'm asking you about it. 197 00:12:36,820 --> 00:12:45,520 But I'm also curious, like, is this kind of a just like, do you view this as a distraction from other things that are far more important happening in Bitcoin right now? 198 00:12:46,100 --> 00:12:51,820 Or is this actually, is it correct that this should be the hot topic of every conversation? 199 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,820 If you're stuck spending dollars, at least stop earning dirty fiat rewards. 200 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:05,320 Use Fold to earn Bitcoin on everyday purchases and regular expenses, groceries, bills, travel, home improvement. 201 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:12,340 I literally just earned 2,203 sats buying a $100 Amazon gift card on Fold. 202 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,440 You don't even need to use the Fold card itself if you don't want to. 203 00:13:16,620 --> 00:13:21,960 You can connect your favorite credit card and double dip with Bitcoin rewards on merchant offers. 204 00:13:22,620 --> 00:13:23,800 Or go all in. 205 00:13:24,180 --> 00:13:26,840 Make Fold the center of your personal finances. 206 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:31,600 Buy, earn, save, and even get paid in Bitcoin with Fold. 207 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:45,740 Head to the link in the show notes to get started with the ultimate savings toolkit or go directly to use.foldapp.com slash r slash walker and get yourself $10 in Bitcoin when you sign up. 208 00:13:45,740 --> 00:14:02,580 If you've accepted that we're living through the fourth turning, then it's time to get yourself some Bitcoin and then go to bitbox.swiss slash walker and use the promo code walker for 5% off the easy to use, fully open source Bitcoin only Bitbox02 hardware wallet. 209 00:14:02,740 --> 00:14:08,840 Then get your Bitcoin off the exchange into your own self custody and prepare yourself for the chaos that is to come. 210 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:19,100 The world is going pretty wild right now, but Bitcoin is ripping and your stack will soon be worth a heck of a lot more in fiat value than it is today as every currency around the world hyperinflates. 211 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,480 So now is the perfect time to get your security locked down tight with Bitbox. 212 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:32,060 I really want to emphasize that the Bitbox O2 is easy as hell to use, whether you're brand new to Bitcoin, it's your first time setting up a hardware wallet, or you are a well-seasoned psychopath. 213 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,540 It is Bitcoin only and fully open source. 214 00:14:35,540 --> 00:14:40,460 no need to trust me. 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QuickPay lets you fire off Lightning payments faster than ever and seamless integration 222 00:15:27,940 --> 00:15:34,380 between on-chain and Lightning means your funds are always where you need them. It's your daily 223 00:15:34,380 --> 00:15:40,860 driver Bitcoin and Lightning wallet and it actually feels good to use it. And with modular widgets, 224 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:47,840 you can personalize your experience to match your style. There's even a Lightning node running right 225 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:57,880 on your phone. No custodians, no compromises. Go to bitkit.to or search Bitkit wallet in your 226 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:06,300 app store and start using Bitcoin like it's meant to be used. That's B-I-T-K-I-T dot T-O. 227 00:16:06,580 --> 00:16:12,520 I think the strategic Bitcoin reserves, they are important in that it goes and shows a 228 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:19,200 wide acceptance that Bitcoin is a legitimate thing and the tech legitimately works. So, 229 00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:22,820 you know, there's two sides to this. One is legitimate in the sense as we're going to allow 230 00:16:22,820 --> 00:16:29,240 it to be a thing. We value it. We recognize why other people value it. And then the other part 231 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,320 of it being we recognize that the technology actually works well enough. It's going to keep 232 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,700 working in maybe another 10 years. Now, of course, I might be the sort of person who will give you 233 00:16:37,700 --> 00:16:43,380 five reasons why, well, maybe it's not going to work so well in 30 years, but it's certainly not 234 00:16:43,380 --> 00:16:51,580 so busted that it's likely to fail in five, 10 years. Now, a counter example of that is imagine 235 00:16:51,580 --> 00:16:55,180 even you had created Bitcoin back in the 90s, 236 00:16:55,180 --> 00:16:58,240 when we were very early into cryptography, 237 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,180 you could have made the plausible argument in the 90s, 238 00:17:01,180 --> 00:17:04,640 you know what, we're not really sure cryptography works. 239 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,980 Like we're putting all our trust in this Bitcoin thing, 240 00:17:07,980 --> 00:17:12,320 you know, but in the 90s, 241 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,340 you probably would have picked cryptography algorithms 242 00:17:14,340 --> 00:17:15,880 that were broken later. 243 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,420 And that could have ended quite badly, 244 00:17:17,420 --> 00:17:20,380 depending on how you navigated those breakages. 245 00:17:20,380 --> 00:17:25,940 is also, I got to point out why it would be very surprising to see governments make, say, a strategic 246 00:17:25,940 --> 00:17:32,680 Monero reserve or a strategic Zcash reserve. Those coins have their purpose, but one of the choices 247 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:38,540 they've made is they've vastly increased the technical risk of failure because the privacy 248 00:17:38,540 --> 00:17:44,400 check means you're really relying on the math being correct. In Bitcoin, you're relying on 249 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:50,360 arithmetic being correct. Any smart six-year-old could add up the numbers on a Bitcoin transaction, 250 00:17:50,380 --> 00:17:54,340 and like figure out whether or not it's correct. 251 00:17:54,780 --> 00:17:56,800 You brought a smart six-year-old to do that 252 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,340 even without you telling them what it is. 253 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:01,540 Well, okay, let me ask you something. 254 00:18:01,659 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaking of, let's say, potential technical issues 255 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:05,340 or technical complexity, 256 00:18:05,980 --> 00:18:07,680 you have perhaps been, 257 00:18:08,020 --> 00:18:11,259 well, you're often a controversial figure, let's say. 258 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:13,620 You, again, never sure when you're trolling 259 00:18:13,620 --> 00:18:14,280 and when you're not. 260 00:18:14,980 --> 00:18:16,540 You have thrown things out there like, 261 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,620 hey, Bitcoin may need tail emissions at some point. 262 00:18:19,620 --> 00:18:25,659 is that is that a troll or do you actually know that that one's not a troll um explain that well so 263 00:18:25,659 --> 00:18:32,140 there's a couple issues there um first and foremost obviously there needs to be a incentive 264 00:18:32,140 --> 00:18:37,540 for miners if there's not an incentive for miners clearly bitcoin doesn't work because the proof of 265 00:18:37,540 --> 00:18:42,759 work drops the point where it's just broken and some will you know some asshole will go through 266 00:18:42,759 --> 00:18:48,160 our centacket so we can certainly say that's true but the more subtle technical point is 267 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,440 not only do we want there to be incentive for miners in general, 268 00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:54,739 we want there to be a consistent incentive. 269 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,640 We always want miners to want to make the next block. 270 00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:01,280 Now, they should be getting paid to do that, 271 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:02,960 and that should be how they earn the most money. 272 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:04,920 So ask the question, 273 00:19:05,759 --> 00:19:09,680 if transaction fees are the only way that miners get paid, 274 00:19:10,060 --> 00:19:12,180 why exactly should they make a new block 275 00:19:12,180 --> 00:19:16,120 rather than maybe re-mine the previous block? 276 00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:21,280 and it's very easy with only transaction fees for these incentives not to work. 277 00:19:22,420 --> 00:19:24,800 Well, okay, and I hear that point, 278 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,680 but isn't it if we're talking about this fiat measuring stick 279 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,259 that is inherently unreliable? 280 00:19:32,580 --> 00:19:35,700 As we get into the future, it's like, okay, yeah, there's no more block reward, 281 00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:38,640 but aren't these transaction fees going to be like, 282 00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:42,220 are we measuring them wrong right now to think this isn't sustainable? 283 00:19:42,220 --> 00:19:48,999 The problem is, even if transaction fees overall create an on-average mining reward, 284 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:54,040 there's no way to make them have a completely consistent mining reward. 285 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:57,660 And inevitably, fees come in bursts. 286 00:19:58,060 --> 00:20:00,840 That's just, well, because blocks themselves are found in bursts, 287 00:20:01,499 --> 00:20:03,239 fees then come in bursts as well. 288 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,120 Because if a block takes a while to be found, fees naturally go up 289 00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,360 as people outbid each other, try to get into the next block. 290 00:20:09,739 --> 00:20:11,320 This is just one of those things that happens. 291 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,320 But of course, if that happens, now fees are very high. 292 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:20,320 Now the incentive is for a large miner to try their hand at mining two blocks in a row 293 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,320 and sweeping up those transaction fees. 294 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,320 And this is just a fundamental issue. 295 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:36,579 And the way you solve that or at least try to mitigate it is by always having a big enough reward that fees aren that important And this is why we haven seen this in Bitcoin 296 00:20:36,979 --> 00:20:40,819 because the times when fees are higher than reward are very rare. 297 00:20:41,279 --> 00:20:44,059 Even with inscriptions and so on, it was still a very rare thing. 298 00:20:45,159 --> 00:20:46,979 In the future, that will not be the case. 299 00:20:47,299 --> 00:20:50,239 And all our mathematical modeling of how incentives work 300 00:20:50,239 --> 00:20:54,279 indicates that at that point, Bitcoin's consensus starts to become unstable. 301 00:20:54,979 --> 00:20:56,919 Now, that by itself would be okay, 302 00:20:57,499 --> 00:21:00,019 except that only large miners can profit off this. 303 00:21:00,679 --> 00:21:04,039 You know, if you have a bid axe, you find a block, 304 00:21:04,539 --> 00:21:08,439 the chances of you finding another block are so low, 305 00:21:10,059 --> 00:21:12,519 you put all your hopes in one block. 306 00:21:12,859 --> 00:21:15,399 If you're Ant Pool, you have enough hatch power, 307 00:21:15,519 --> 00:21:17,399 you have a reasonable chance finding two blocks in a row. 308 00:21:17,799 --> 00:21:19,219 Thus, a reorg can make sense. 309 00:21:19,219 --> 00:21:23,119 But of course, if they do a reorg, your block got reorgs out, 310 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,319 and you just lost a million bucks. 311 00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:28,799 I mean, and I hear that, 312 00:21:28,879 --> 00:21:30,519 but my worry is don't you think 313 00:21:30,519 --> 00:21:32,539 this kind of like a tail emission proposal, 314 00:21:32,939 --> 00:21:37,079 doesn't that undercut the actual credibility? 315 00:21:37,539 --> 00:21:39,419 Well, so tail emission specifically, 316 00:21:40,479 --> 00:21:44,139 that's a fascinating proposal. 317 00:21:44,439 --> 00:21:45,539 And of course, Monero does this. 318 00:21:45,919 --> 00:21:51,239 It's fascinating because the rate of new coin supply 319 00:21:51,239 --> 00:21:57,259 actually converges towards a rate at which coins are lost or destroyed. 320 00:21:57,819 --> 00:22:00,679 And this comes down to basically how the math of this works. 321 00:22:01,879 --> 00:22:04,159 So the analogy I like to use is like imagine a leaky bucket. 322 00:22:05,059 --> 00:22:05,219 All right. 323 00:22:05,479 --> 00:22:06,119 You have a bucket. 324 00:22:07,419 --> 00:22:09,539 Water is coming into the bucket at a fixed rate, 325 00:22:09,739 --> 00:22:11,099 and there's a hole at the bottom of the bucket. 326 00:22:13,099 --> 00:22:16,359 The amount of water coming out of that hole is proportional 327 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,579 to the depth of water in the bucket. 328 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,199 So there will always be a depth. 329 00:22:21,239 --> 00:22:22,079 where it converges. 330 00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:25,419 If the depth is really low, not much water comes out, 331 00:22:25,919 --> 00:22:26,899 more water fills up. 332 00:22:27,199 --> 00:22:29,519 The depth is very high, more water gets forced out, 333 00:22:30,019 --> 00:22:30,779 it goes down. 334 00:22:30,999 --> 00:22:31,939 So there's a fixed level. 335 00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:35,419 And a natural equilibrium, basically, 336 00:22:35,499 --> 00:22:36,919 because people do lose coins. 337 00:22:36,919 --> 00:22:38,139 Yeah, they will always lose coins. 338 00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:39,679 And also, for other reasons, 339 00:22:39,779 --> 00:22:41,419 coins will naturally get destroyed, too. 340 00:22:41,419 --> 00:22:42,659 But mostly it's loss. 341 00:22:43,239 --> 00:22:44,499 There's just no avoiding it. 342 00:22:44,579 --> 00:22:45,839 People will lose coins. 343 00:22:46,799 --> 00:22:48,239 What percentage per year? 344 00:22:48,239 --> 00:22:53,239 probably on the order of 0.1ish percent, maybe 1%, maybe. 345 00:22:53,399 --> 00:22:56,159 So probably somewhere in that region. 346 00:22:56,159 --> 00:22:58,759 So if you have a tail emission 347 00:22:58,759 --> 00:23:01,119 that starts off at something like that, 348 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,139 what actually happens effectively 349 00:23:03,139 --> 00:23:08,139 is that the value increase that you would have otherwise gotten 350 00:23:08,699 --> 00:23:10,839 by other people losing their coins 351 00:23:10,839 --> 00:23:13,259 gets effectively diverted to miners 352 00:23:13,259 --> 00:23:15,299 to pay for the security of your own system. 353 00:23:15,299 --> 00:23:17,139 Now I'm not making the claim 354 00:23:17,139 --> 00:23:20,419 that that amount of money is guaranteed to make Bitcoin work. 355 00:23:20,419 --> 00:23:22,419 I'm just saying that's an amount of money 356 00:23:22,419 --> 00:23:24,219 that clearly we can afford 357 00:23:24,219 --> 00:23:26,699 because people don't protect their coins well enough 358 00:23:26,699 --> 00:23:28,399 to not lose their money. 359 00:23:28,399 --> 00:23:31,699 So like, obviously this is amount of money low enough, 360 00:23:31,699 --> 00:23:33,019 really, who cares? 361 00:23:33,019 --> 00:23:34,919 Another argument I always make is like, 362 00:23:34,919 --> 00:23:38,019 let's suppose we're talking about numbers like 0.1%. 363 00:23:38,019 --> 00:23:41,519 0.1% compounded over your entire lifetime. 364 00:23:42,499 --> 00:23:43,499 I forget the number off the top of my head, 365 00:23:43,499 --> 00:23:44,619 but something like 20%. 366 00:23:44,619 --> 00:23:46,739 You can do it on your calculator, right? 367 00:23:47,139 --> 00:23:48,319 I believe you're best. 368 00:23:49,079 --> 00:23:50,659 That ain't mental math. 369 00:23:51,259 --> 00:23:53,759 I can know how to multiply that means in a row. 370 00:23:53,919 --> 00:23:57,379 But the point is, it's a small percentage of your total wealth. 371 00:23:58,039 --> 00:24:09,359 And the argument there is, if you can't dedicate that amount of your entire savings over your entire lifetime to keeping those same savings secure, what are you doing? 372 00:24:10,019 --> 00:24:12,499 This doesn't make any economic sense. 373 00:24:12,879 --> 00:24:13,879 You can afford this. 374 00:24:14,499 --> 00:24:14,979 Equally. 375 00:24:14,979 --> 00:24:21,979 but can can bitcoin as a network afford it when it comes like well that just undercuts 376 00:24:21,979 --> 00:24:27,119 credibility right undercut credibility because idiots who don't understand how this stuff works 377 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:32,899 go on podcasts and go yammer on about how terrible tail mission is most of us are idiots well 378 00:24:32,899 --> 00:24:39,219 i know i we should be that's and that's why i'm talking to you uh okay let me ask another question 379 00:24:39,219 --> 00:24:47,179 And there's a lot of debate around all this, you know, spamming, fix the filters, all these things. 380 00:24:47,839 --> 00:24:49,899 I don't actually know where you stand on that. 381 00:24:50,319 --> 00:24:55,499 Do you think this is a, like, is this an argument that is actually matters and need to be had? 382 00:24:55,519 --> 00:24:57,619 Or is this something that just sorts itself out? 383 00:24:57,619 --> 00:25:09,519 Well, the way I would put it is we know there is no principled way to stop people putting data in the Bitcoin chain. 384 00:25:10,099 --> 00:25:15,599 And furthermore, there's no principled way to stop people from using Bitcoin in ways we don't consider are real. 385 00:25:15,599 --> 00:25:28,019 So, and notably, Luke Jr., back in the day, he wasn't just trying to censor, quote unquote, spam transactions that had data in them. 386 00:25:28,219 --> 00:25:33,379 He was actually trying to censor, quote unquote, spam transactions that were actual monetary transactions. 387 00:25:34,719 --> 00:25:36,159 Satoshi Dice being your example. 388 00:25:37,339 --> 00:25:39,459 So, maybe you're too young for this. 389 00:25:39,459 --> 00:25:43,119 I am, but I have read about this. 390 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:49,919 So back in the day, there was this thing called Stoshi Dice where you'd send them Bitcoin on a particular address. 391 00:25:50,159 --> 00:25:53,279 I mean, actually, a bunch of addresses with different betting odds. 392 00:25:54,859 --> 00:25:58,299 And they'd do the math on whether you won or lost. 393 00:25:58,759 --> 00:26:02,019 They actually did it in a provable way, which was nice. 394 00:26:03,419 --> 00:26:07,999 And then if you win, they send you back your winnings. 395 00:26:07,999 --> 00:26:14,799 If you lose, they send you back a small amount of money just to let you know that they processed bets and you lost. 396 00:26:15,699 --> 00:26:17,619 So that is a financial transaction. 397 00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:18,659 You're making a bet. 398 00:26:19,299 --> 00:26:20,439 You win or lose. 399 00:26:20,539 --> 00:26:21,599 If you win, you get your money back. 400 00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:23,979 No data was otherwise. 401 00:26:23,979 --> 00:26:24,639 No data whatsoever. 402 00:26:25,059 --> 00:26:30,279 Other than maybe the data in the sense of you did a financial transaction. 403 00:26:31,079 --> 00:26:32,119 It's still data, yeah. 404 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:33,859 But there were no monkey attacks. 405 00:26:34,059 --> 00:26:38,699 In the sort of inscription sense, there's certainly no data in there. 406 00:26:39,279 --> 00:26:48,299 So for a while, this became so popular that like, you know, over half of all Bitcoin transactions were Satoshi dice. 407 00:26:49,619 --> 00:26:51,059 I didn't know it was that popular. 408 00:26:51,559 --> 00:26:51,699 Wow. 409 00:26:52,439 --> 00:26:53,959 I mean, you know, we're in Vegas right now. 410 00:26:54,019 --> 00:26:56,319 Like there's a lot of degenerate gamblers out there. 411 00:26:57,159 --> 00:26:57,679 There's a lot. 412 00:26:57,759 --> 00:26:57,919 Yeah. 413 00:26:57,919 --> 00:27:03,079 And a lot of people looked at this and said, well, obviously this is stupid. 414 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,579 Why are you spending so much money in transaction fees? 415 00:27:05,639 --> 00:27:07,819 Why are you using all this precious block space? 416 00:27:09,019 --> 00:27:12,119 But of course, at the time, transaction fees were low, so it didn't really matter. 417 00:27:13,759 --> 00:27:19,179 And my view on it was, well, whatever, people are going to use Bitcoin for what they want to use it for. 418 00:27:20,099 --> 00:27:21,799 This is why we have a block size limit. 419 00:27:21,799 --> 00:27:35,759 You know, we've decided how much data Bitcoin no needs process to keep up with the blockchain and how people choose to use it within that, leave it up to the free market. 420 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:42,859 Luke Jr. already had Bitcoin OTS at the time and he had a blacklist to filter out Satoshi Dice. 421 00:27:43,459 --> 00:27:43,779 Okay. 422 00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:48,399 Yeah, man, this was running on Elogius, so Elogius would not mind Satoshi Dice transactions. 423 00:27:48,399 --> 00:27:54,379 well you know it's interesting because you also developed something open timestamps 424 00:27:54,379 --> 00:28:01,539 which is a very different take on how to use the bitcoins blockchain for uh let's say non-monetary 425 00:28:01,539 --> 00:28:07,319 use but very clearly non-monetary very clearly but in a very optimized way can you talk about 426 00:28:07,319 --> 00:28:10,539 that a little bit because it's also how simple proof is doing what they're open timestamps 427 00:28:10,539 --> 00:28:17,199 in a nutshell its assistants make a math proof that data existed in the past why is this useful 428 00:28:17,199 --> 00:28:18,919 Well, bad guys don't have time machines. 429 00:28:19,799 --> 00:28:27,159 So if you can prove that something existed prior to when an attack could have happened, you can rule out the attack happening. 430 00:28:27,859 --> 00:28:29,899 Now, there's a lot of cases of this. 431 00:28:30,259 --> 00:28:39,799 A very clear example, at least for a technical audience, is if you have a digital signature, obviously the private key used to create the digital signature could get compromised. 432 00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:44,119 You know, maybe you leave your PHP key on a server. 433 00:28:44,479 --> 00:28:47,019 Not that any Bitcoin devs would have done that. 434 00:28:47,199 --> 00:28:49,159 He could possibly do that. 435 00:28:49,159 --> 00:28:51,499 But just like Junior, he isn't the only one who screwed this up. 436 00:28:52,399 --> 00:28:53,119 It's happened. 437 00:28:54,459 --> 00:29:00,599 So Bitcoin Core does have signing of Git commits. 438 00:29:01,339 --> 00:29:12,059 And some of the Bitcoin Core contributors use open timestamps to prove that their signatures on their Git commits were created prior to when hopefully, well, hopefully never. 439 00:29:12,059 --> 00:29:17,539 But if their key does get compromised, hopefully we know when it got compromised and still validate these old signatures. 440 00:29:18,579 --> 00:29:27,979 Now, another example, you know, I mean, maybe a broader example is if you're storing data in general for a later, like, archival, why aren't you timestamping? 441 00:29:28,099 --> 00:29:32,759 I mean, why wouldn't you want to be able to say, hey, obviously this hasn't been touched for this amount of period of time. 442 00:29:33,199 --> 00:29:39,799 Maybe it was, you know, born fake to begin with, but at least it hasn't been faked since. 443 00:29:40,659 --> 00:29:43,599 Now, with SimpleProof, they offer this as commercial service. 444 00:29:44,499 --> 00:29:50,659 And, you know, open timestamps, open source software, you have to store this like one kilobyte proof file. 445 00:29:51,199 --> 00:29:55,359 Not a big deal, but in a lot of use cases, that's annoying enough. 446 00:29:55,679 --> 00:29:57,619 You'd rather pay SimpleProof to do it for you. 447 00:29:59,079 --> 00:30:08,019 So, SimpleProof, among other things, they were hired by the Guatemalan government to do timestamping of election records. 448 00:30:08,019 --> 00:30:13,679 specifically its paper ballot system, but obviously the ballots are counted. 449 00:30:14,239 --> 00:30:19,319 You get a little sheet with that paper, and that's where the numbers are, 450 00:30:19,379 --> 00:30:21,559 however many votes for each candidate. 451 00:30:23,479 --> 00:30:27,299 That sheet gets scanned into a database, and they timestamped it right then. 452 00:30:28,119 --> 00:30:28,899 What does that prove? 453 00:30:28,899 --> 00:30:35,899 Well, it proves that at least that claim was created when you expect it to be, 454 00:30:35,899 --> 00:30:37,999 which should be roughly an hour after polling. 455 00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:41,439 Because, you know, Guatemala isn't some sort of third world country 456 00:30:41,439 --> 00:30:53,439 that takes weeks to decide they come to their elections Not that I would know of any Like yeah like america yeah oh okay all right so remind me is that first or third world which is just yeah sidebar just 457 00:30:53,439 --> 00:30:59,079 yeah absurd that we can't seem to figure that out and like a country like guatemala can somehow do 458 00:30:59,079 --> 00:31:04,199 it in literally if people fail to do something that easy it might not be because they're dumb 459 00:31:04,199 --> 00:31:09,379 i'll say that much well that's that's the sad thing i remember seeing the documentary and seeing 460 00:31:09,379 --> 00:31:12,199 and you working on that with them, 461 00:31:12,199 --> 00:31:14,919 and I thought that should have been a way bigger story 462 00:31:14,919 --> 00:31:17,679 than it was, because I thought that was amazing. 463 00:31:17,679 --> 00:31:19,599 Do you think that's something that, 464 00:31:19,599 --> 00:31:21,599 I know in the US these elections are handled 465 00:31:21,599 --> 00:31:25,099 on a local basis in terms of how they handle things, 466 00:31:25,099 --> 00:31:26,499 but do you think that's ever something 467 00:31:26,499 --> 00:31:28,379 that would actually become widespread in the US? 468 00:31:28,379 --> 00:31:29,299 Or is the insist? 469 00:31:29,299 --> 00:31:33,379 So in the more recent presidential election in the US, 470 00:31:33,379 --> 00:31:36,739 one county did in fact use open timestamps 471 00:31:36,739 --> 00:31:41,739 to help prove the integrity of their vote. 472 00:31:42,219 --> 00:31:44,539 And there's actually one of the guys 473 00:31:44,539 --> 00:31:46,299 from Simple Proof, Carlino, 474 00:31:46,299 --> 00:31:50,099 he did an interview with the woman in charge of that. 475 00:31:50,099 --> 00:31:54,339 And I gotta admit, it's such a hilarious interview 476 00:31:54,339 --> 00:31:57,459 in a way because, Chris, I know the tech details behind it, 477 00:31:57,459 --> 00:32:00,439 and they're going on and on about integrity of elections, 478 00:32:00,439 --> 00:32:01,939 how the process works, and so on. 479 00:32:01,939 --> 00:32:03,799 But what it boiled down to is, 480 00:32:03,799 --> 00:32:06,539 she paid Simple Proof 12 bucks for the service, 481 00:32:06,739 --> 00:32:10,019 which is a standard rate for the amount of data they were doing. 482 00:32:10,679 --> 00:32:14,719 Then she did all her actual work and sent them three emails 483 00:32:14,719 --> 00:32:17,439 with the documents that needed to be timestamped, 484 00:32:17,699 --> 00:32:19,339 which took all of 30 seconds. 485 00:32:19,739 --> 00:32:21,999 Because timestamping is really, really easy. 486 00:32:22,259 --> 00:32:25,199 Like I say, if you're archiving data, what's your excuse? 487 00:32:25,679 --> 00:32:30,199 And in her case, she'd actually gone to the election board and said, 488 00:32:30,499 --> 00:32:31,579 you know, here's the thing. 489 00:32:31,699 --> 00:32:32,799 Here's why we should do it. 490 00:32:32,819 --> 00:32:33,759 It's really dead easy. 491 00:32:34,119 --> 00:32:35,219 It's going to cost us $12. 492 00:32:35,219 --> 00:32:37,539 bucks. We're spending more money on pizza. 493 00:32:38,859 --> 00:32:39,379 Why 494 00:32:39,379 --> 00:32:41,279 aren't we doing this? And furthermore, if you 495 00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:43,119 say no, I'm just going to do it anyway 496 00:32:43,119 --> 00:32:44,919 because I'm legally responsible for these numbers. 497 00:32:46,019 --> 00:32:47,659 I want 498 00:32:47,659 --> 00:32:49,499 one more layer of protection 499 00:32:49,499 --> 00:32:51,359 to show that they 500 00:32:51,359 --> 00:32:52,099 weren't changed later. 501 00:32:53,479 --> 00:32:55,419 Of course, obviously, this is one of many 502 00:32:55,419 --> 00:32:56,879 interlocking checks and balances. 503 00:32:57,639 --> 00:32:59,139 Another example being, well, 504 00:32:59,219 --> 00:33:01,079 they're legally required to publish the numbers 505 00:33:01,079 --> 00:33:02,679 once the 506 00:33:02,679 --> 00:33:04,499 sums come in. 507 00:33:05,219 --> 00:33:06,579 well, of course, how do they do it? 508 00:33:06,619 --> 00:33:08,679 Well, like post on Facebook, post on Twitter. 509 00:33:09,639 --> 00:33:11,059 And it sounds kind of silly in a way, 510 00:33:11,139 --> 00:33:11,839 but actually, you know, 511 00:33:11,919 --> 00:33:13,819 like that is a communication mechanism. 512 00:33:14,039 --> 00:33:15,259 Why wouldn't you do that? 513 00:33:16,539 --> 00:33:18,319 Timestamping it is just one more way 514 00:33:18,319 --> 00:33:22,119 of putting in that authentic record saying, 515 00:33:22,239 --> 00:33:23,719 yeah, no, it really did happen here. 516 00:33:24,359 --> 00:33:25,439 Someone didn't change it later. 517 00:33:25,839 --> 00:33:26,779 Because imagine, for instance, 518 00:33:26,859 --> 00:33:29,199 if you reported on Facebook 519 00:33:29,199 --> 00:33:32,099 and someone changes the figures on Facebook. 520 00:33:32,839 --> 00:33:34,159 Facebook's not digitally signed. 521 00:33:34,159 --> 00:33:35,319 you're trusting Facebook. 522 00:33:36,819 --> 00:33:40,039 Well, if you're able to go show a timestamp, 523 00:33:40,299 --> 00:33:43,259 you can at least say, hey, here's my copy. 524 00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:45,839 I created this prior to this point in time. 525 00:33:46,259 --> 00:33:48,739 Yeah, all right, maybe I created five different versions of it. 526 00:33:48,899 --> 00:33:50,579 But now you have to make the arguments 527 00:33:50,579 --> 00:33:53,439 that why my copy is still invalid too. 528 00:33:54,099 --> 00:33:56,319 You're in a much better position with a timestamp. 529 00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:00,459 I mean, it seems like, again, one of those things that's so obvious 530 00:34:00,459 --> 00:34:02,779 and that it's like, why wouldn't you do that? 531 00:34:02,779 --> 00:34:04,899 like unless you 532 00:34:04,899 --> 00:34:07,179 well unless you don't want 533 00:34:07,179 --> 00:34:07,679 yeah 534 00:34:07,679 --> 00:34:11,819 so one of the very first things I added 535 00:34:11,819 --> 00:34:13,779 to opens timestamps was support for Git 536 00:34:13,779 --> 00:34:14,319 okay 537 00:34:14,319 --> 00:34:17,339 and I personally keep all my emails 538 00:34:17,339 --> 00:34:18,579 and other datas 539 00:34:18,579 --> 00:34:20,479 in Git repositories 540 00:34:20,479 --> 00:34:22,339 you know every email I have 541 00:34:22,339 --> 00:34:23,359 winds up in a Git repository 542 00:34:23,359 --> 00:34:24,439 well 543 00:34:24,439 --> 00:34:26,139 since I created 544 00:34:26,139 --> 00:34:30,919 since I created the software 545 00:34:30,919 --> 00:34:32,439 it was just dead easy for me 546 00:34:32,439 --> 00:34:35,619 to make it possible to just press a button 547 00:34:35,619 --> 00:34:37,779 and my Git repos are timestamps. 548 00:34:37,779 --> 00:34:39,359 In every single file in them, 549 00:34:39,359 --> 00:34:41,439 I can get timestamps for every single one. 550 00:34:42,479 --> 00:34:46,919 In kind of this AI future that we're suddenly living in, 551 00:34:46,919 --> 00:34:48,499 it feels like that's gonna be more important than ever. 552 00:34:48,499 --> 00:34:50,639 Well, I gotta say, one of my biggest regrets 553 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:55,699 with Open Timestamps was in around, I think, 2017, 554 00:34:55,699 --> 00:35:00,839 I downloaded the metadata for the Internet Archive, 555 00:35:00,839 --> 00:35:03,339 which is just, it's an enormous amount of data. 556 00:35:03,339 --> 00:35:04,179 It was like- 557 00:35:04,179 --> 00:35:04,999 How much data was it? 558 00:35:04,999 --> 00:35:05,839 Oh, I think terabytes even. 559 00:35:05,839 --> 00:35:07,719 There was a certain amount of data. 560 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,979 So I go, crunch for all this metadata, 561 00:35:09,979 --> 00:35:14,159 and the metadata has hashes of their actual data, 562 00:35:15,579 --> 00:35:17,219 and I put this all into a big Merkle tree 563 00:35:17,219 --> 00:35:19,719 and I timestamp it, and I tried at least 564 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,239 to create a system to download more metadata as it came 565 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:24,839 and keep timestamping it, but honestly, 566 00:35:24,839 --> 00:35:27,139 the internet archive is just so big, 567 00:35:27,139 --> 00:35:29,839 I couldn't reasonably do that with the software I had 568 00:35:29,839 --> 00:35:31,819 in the budget I had for servers. 569 00:35:31,819 --> 00:35:33,839 So I eventually gave up. 570 00:35:33,839 --> 00:35:36,299 But in the meantime, the Internet Archive themselves 571 00:35:36,299 --> 00:35:38,219 found out about this. 572 00:35:38,219 --> 00:35:39,899 And remember they actually sent me an email saying, 573 00:35:39,899 --> 00:35:42,259 wait, you timestamped the Internet Archive? 574 00:35:43,839 --> 00:35:44,739 And I explained how I did it. 575 00:35:44,739 --> 00:35:47,279 It's like, yeah, ma'am, I guess you could actually do that. 576 00:35:47,279 --> 00:35:49,259 And they invited me to go to San Francisco 577 00:35:49,259 --> 00:35:52,079 at their headquarters to go talk to them. 578 00:35:52,079 --> 00:35:53,319 But how would they integrate this 579 00:35:53,319 --> 00:35:54,879 into the Internet Archive themselves? 580 00:35:54,879 --> 00:35:57,719 Every single person in the room, except one, 581 00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,479 loved the idea. 582 00:35:59,479 --> 00:36:02,159 And that one asshole who came in at the end of the meeting 583 00:36:02,159 --> 00:36:04,179 and heard the word Bitcoin just said, 584 00:36:04,539 --> 00:36:05,779 well, it's Bitcoin, we're not going to do it. 585 00:36:05,979 --> 00:36:06,299 Seriously. 586 00:36:06,639 --> 00:36:06,779 Yep. 587 00:36:07,619 --> 00:36:10,279 We could have had all of the Internet Archive 588 00:36:10,279 --> 00:36:14,759 timestamped properly in an easy to prove way 589 00:36:14,759 --> 00:36:16,639 prior to AI being a thing. 590 00:36:16,899 --> 00:36:18,079 And they fumbled that ball. 591 00:36:19,259 --> 00:36:21,339 That just seems like such a moronic thing. 592 00:36:21,339 --> 00:36:23,159 It really is. 593 00:36:23,179 --> 00:36:24,099 This is like this Bitcoin deranged. 594 00:36:24,519 --> 00:36:27,579 You are actively shooting yourself in the foot. 595 00:36:27,579 --> 00:36:29,279 It was no technical. 596 00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:31,199 There was no technical. 597 00:36:32,459 --> 00:36:33,059 You know, 598 00:36:33,279 --> 00:36:34,139 criticism of this. 599 00:36:34,259 --> 00:36:34,759 It was purely, 600 00:36:35,199 --> 00:36:39,259 we will not advocate for anything involving Bitcoin. 601 00:36:39,679 --> 00:36:41,159 It is just fundamentally evil. 602 00:36:41,319 --> 00:36:41,779 End of story. 603 00:36:43,459 --> 00:36:44,239 Dear Lord. 604 00:36:44,699 --> 00:36:45,819 Do you think they'll ever come around? 605 00:36:45,919 --> 00:36:46,379 Very unlikely. 606 00:36:47,159 --> 00:36:47,679 It's a shame. 607 00:36:48,259 --> 00:36:48,519 Maybe, 608 00:36:48,539 --> 00:36:48,839 you know, 609 00:36:48,919 --> 00:36:50,499 maybe in a few more years, 610 00:36:50,659 --> 00:36:53,799 but my contacts there, 611 00:36:53,959 --> 00:36:55,119 last I've talked to them, 612 00:36:55,399 --> 00:36:56,539 basically say it's the same thing, 613 00:36:56,539 --> 00:36:56,979 even now. 614 00:36:57,579 --> 00:36:59,159 Even as big as Bitcoin's gotten. 615 00:36:59,499 --> 00:37:03,419 I mean, I hate to say this, but the Internet Archive, it's a bunch of left-wing people. 616 00:37:03,419 --> 00:37:10,079 And I don't think they're happy seeing Trump rise in parts on Bitcoin becoming an issue in U.S. politics. 617 00:37:11,459 --> 00:37:14,339 I mean, it's just like you're only hurting yourself, though. 618 00:37:14,439 --> 00:37:15,559 And that's the sad thing. 619 00:37:15,819 --> 00:37:19,519 No one cares what your political views are with Bitcoin. 620 00:37:19,899 --> 00:37:24,439 Unfortunately, though, the nature of Bitcoin is only compatible with certain political views. 621 00:37:25,299 --> 00:37:27,559 Because like it or not, not everyone actually likes freedom. 622 00:37:27,579 --> 00:37:34,239 which is a sad reality to discover we got to wrap up here in a sec but i want to ask you 623 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,839 is there something that you're really excited about now or something else that like you're 624 00:37:38,839 --> 00:37:42,319 working on like what excites you these days i got to admit it's actually still open timestamps 625 00:37:42,319 --> 00:37:46,939 um because so simple proof you know they've been trying to go and raise uh raise funding 626 00:37:46,939 --> 00:37:51,699 um they've gotten uh i'm not gonna get a term right like i think it's pre-seed round or whatever 627 00:37:51,699 --> 00:37:56,919 it is and they were able to in turn give me some funding to go do a bunch more work on open 628 00:37:56,919 --> 00:38:04,479 timestamps because the protocol, the math behind it scales, but the software to actually 629 00:38:04,479 --> 00:38:07,639 make it scale didn't actually work. 630 00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:12,559 Like it worked, but if someone tried to make 10,000 timestamp requests per second, it would 631 00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:15,559 have just fallen over because they couldn't scale it horizontally. 632 00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:17,559 I couldn't throw servers at the problem. 633 00:38:17,559 --> 00:38:23,779 So I fixed half of that already, which is to create new timestamps, I can throw servers 634 00:38:23,779 --> 00:38:24,779 at the problem. 635 00:38:24,779 --> 00:38:26,579 just have more and more servers making 636 00:38:26,579 --> 00:38:28,659 Merkle trees and Merkle trees and so on. 637 00:38:28,999 --> 00:38:29,079 Right? 638 00:38:30,699 --> 00:38:32,579 Yeah. I mean, 639 00:38:32,659 --> 00:38:35,039 it's a pretty obvious thing if you understand the cryptography. 640 00:38:35,339 --> 00:38:36,939 It's just someone's got to sit down 641 00:38:36,939 --> 00:38:38,979 and write that software. But then I did 642 00:38:38,979 --> 00:38:40,559 and that's fine. If 643 00:38:40,559 --> 00:38:42,479 Microsoft 644 00:38:42,479 --> 00:38:44,739 timestamps every single file on every single 645 00:38:44,739 --> 00:38:46,819 computer in the world as some new 646 00:38:46,819 --> 00:38:48,639 feature, it'll be fine. The 647 00:38:48,639 --> 00:38:49,479 catch is 648 00:38:49,479 --> 00:38:52,719 the other part of timestamping 649 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,699 is to then get the proof back. 650 00:38:54,779 --> 00:38:57,679 and that part still doesn't scale. 651 00:38:58,419 --> 00:39:00,259 And for technical reasons, 652 00:39:00,439 --> 00:39:01,699 that's a lot harder to do, 653 00:39:02,139 --> 00:39:04,299 but hopefully I'll be able to, 654 00:39:04,519 --> 00:39:05,799 if I don't go to too many conferences, 655 00:39:06,499 --> 00:39:08,479 spend a couple months worth of work 656 00:39:08,479 --> 00:39:11,119 to make all this stuff happen. 657 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:12,479 And then I'll be able to truly say, 658 00:39:12,479 --> 00:39:14,479 yeah, please timestamp the world's data. 659 00:39:16,219 --> 00:39:18,639 Well, I hope that the world does timestamp its data. 660 00:39:19,159 --> 00:39:19,479 Me too. 661 00:39:19,619 --> 00:39:20,319 Thanks so much, man. 662 00:39:20,319 --> 00:39:20,659 Thank you. 663 00:39:20,759 --> 00:39:21,859 For people that are listening to this, 664 00:39:22,199 --> 00:39:23,679 if you haven't checked out open timestamps, 665 00:39:23,679 --> 00:39:28,279 you should go timestamp everything like or everything that you it really is easy you get 666 00:39:28,279 --> 00:39:34,859 to open timestamps.org scroll down there's a button timestamp your file it is hashed on your 667 00:39:34,859 --> 00:39:40,839 computer it does not upload to anyone else very private and you'll get back like a little one 668 00:39:40,839 --> 00:39:46,019 kilobyte file that you know 20 years in the future you can prove you did it right then 669 00:39:46,019 --> 00:39:52,199 i love it peter thank you so much man it's great talking to you all right 670 00:39:53,679 --> 00:40:07,099 And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast. 671 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,679 Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening 672 00:40:11,679 --> 00:40:15,999 and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet. 673 00:40:15,999 --> 00:40:22,679 Find me on Noster at primal.net slash walker and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin. 674 00:40:22,679 --> 00:40:31,099 On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram at Titcoin Podcast. 675 00:40:31,839 --> 00:40:34,099 Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links. 676 00:40:34,219 --> 00:40:38,899 Head to substack.com slash at Walker America to get episodes emailed to you. 677 00:40:39,359 --> 00:40:42,699 And head to Bitcoin Podcast dot net for everything else. 678 00:40:43,259 --> 00:40:46,819 Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant. 679 00:40:46,819 --> 00:40:52,439 So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast. 680 00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:55,479 Until next time, stay free.