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I think people just need a reality check.

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I love the meme is like, it don't matter.

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Because it don't fucking matter.

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It's literally the whole point of the system.

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It is to make individuals matter less.

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Be less effective at disrupting the network on a positive or negative.

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The democratizing meme, all those like kumbaya things, like leave them behind.

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All the democracy thing, leave them behind.

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It's like Bitcoin is anarchy, right?

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It does not have religious attribution.

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It does not have political attributions.

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It doesn't have fucking anything.

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It's just a mathematical system, right?

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With extremely conservative economic values, right?

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And full anarchy.

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First of all, if you don't want to lose your coins, just turn off Twitter.

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Go stack more sats and fuck everything else, honestly.

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Being worried about this stuff, it's when a lot of people sell.

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No, stop that.

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Just go fucking move on in your life.

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Nobody gives a shit.

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I feel like there are some very valid grievances.

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The arguments for removing the op return limit were very poor.

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But now there's a reality that filters don't work.

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But you can also just do nothing.

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Jesus can just fucking do nothing.

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You don't have to do something.

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You know, Core has been an absolute clusterfuck on how they handle users, businesses.

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And then you have the nutside that went complete fucking batshit insane.

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like you know like once you bring csam i mean like you know the conversation is over

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like really like it's that's it just conversation is done that's where we're at now it's like you

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know both sides are absolutely insufferable and so my my answer to that is i don't upgrade my node

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and i welcome i seriously i i recommend everybody just stop upgrading this idea of upgrading software

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is it's like this is windows mentality you know like i come from you know the free bsd side it's

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Just don't upgrade.

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You know, I have servers running

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in 70 years, 10 years of time.

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I'm going to upgrade.

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It's not broken.

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There is no major vulnerability that matters.

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There is no major vulnerability in Bitcoin

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that requires an update.

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Bitcoin is not about like, you know, equality.

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Bitcoin is about fairness.

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It's a very, very different thing.

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You know, it's like we have a fair network

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that provides the same rules to everyone.

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It doesn't matter if you're king

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or if you're drunk or both.

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You have the same rules, right?

51
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Everybody gets to enjoy the same rules.

52
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Nobody with more can rug you, right?

53
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But that doesn't mean that your voice, your node,

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is worth the same as massive exchange node.

55
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At the end of the revolution, the revolutionaries kill each other, right?

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It's always like that because all a revolutionary knows to do

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is to be a revolutionary.

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You know, people, it's the same reason why people come back from war

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and start shooting other people.

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It's very hard for you to step out of that fight mode and accept that shit is just fine.

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It's like the go walk on grass meme.

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Listen, I'm guilty too.

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I'm on Twitter shitposting and participating in the many pointless discussions because it's entertaining.

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But at the end of the day, I walk barefoot on some sand and I remember that the coins that I lost in a bolt accident are probably worth a lot.

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And that's it.

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Just accept that we're winning.

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It's hard.

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Losing is clearly more fun for some people.

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Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.

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My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast.

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Bitcoin continues to make new blocks every 10 minutes and the value of one Bitcoin is

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still one Bitcoin.

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If you are listening to this right now, remember you're still early.

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This episode is brought to you by Blockware.

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00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,600
What if you could lower your tax bill and stack Bitcoin at the same time?

76
00:03:57,700 --> 00:03:59,220
Well, with Blockware, you can.

77
00:03:59,460 --> 00:04:04,300
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78
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So earn Bitcoin daily while saving big come tax season.

79
00:04:07,620 --> 00:04:11,780
Get started at mining.blockwaresolutions.com slash titcoin.

80
00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:17,480
Use the code titcoin to get $100 off your first miner when using the Blockware marketplace.

81
00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,540
This is not tax advice, so go speak to the team at Blockware to learn more.

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00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,620
That's mining.blockwaresolutions.com slash titcoin.

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00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:30,180
Head to the show notes for links to find the show on centralized social media platforms and on Noster,

84
00:04:30,340 --> 00:04:33,720
or just go directly to bitcoinpodcast.net. You'll find it all there.

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00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,440
And kind reminder that you can support this show by becoming a paid subscriber on Fountain.

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Or don't, Bitcoin doesn't care, but I sure do appreciate it.

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Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk.

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time yeah i think i think you had just started and you had a different it was early you were early

89
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yeah it's been two years yeah yeah that's that's actually wild time flies when you're making

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bitcoin podcasts and nothing ever changes in the bitcoin space uh but yeah i'm excited to have you

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back it's a lot has changed since then so it was like yeah it was almost two years ago it was like

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beginning of 2024 when you came on. At that time, the kind of big debate of the day was around

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inscriptions and ordinals and that kind of thing. Bitcoin wasn't pumping quite as hard. We were not

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quite so bullish maybe. And now here we sit at, I think just at the time of recording, we just

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popped back above like 120,000 infinitely printable fiat cuck bucks per Bitcoin.

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And somehow still people are finding things to argue about.

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And so I wanted to bring you on because you're always somebody who I feel you're you could

98
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probably be accused by some of being like a, you know, a quote, a fence sitter, somebody

99
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who's not deciding to take a side.

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But I always view it as you you tend to call out the bullshit on both sides of any debate

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when you see it, which is what everyone should do.

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Right.

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But I don't know, man.

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So what's your vibe check right now on the Bitcoin ecosystem?

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Does anything ever change?

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Or is this just, you've been in Bitcoin a while.

107
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Is this just the same as it ever was?

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Yeah, I mean, you know, it's Bitcoin.

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I mean, there is no sides.

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That's the thing.

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It's so fucking stupid.

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Like, there is no sides.

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There is no parties.

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There is no voting.

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There is no, like, people just bring their, like, commie, democratic baggage with them to Bitcoin, right?

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And then they get confused.

117
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There's a lot of people who gave people a lot of bad analogies for Bitcoin,

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like voting and democratizing and shit like that.

119
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None of that stuff has anything to do with Bitcoin.

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Bitcoin is the most selfish money that ever existed before.

121
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In a good way, sort of like an objectivism way.

122
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right it's it's like you sort of advocating or really just protecting your bags by self-verifying

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on your node with the software version that you want is all that really matters I mean everything

124
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else is just noise yeah it's it's really funny I was I had Tidwell on the show recently and he

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basically he had a quote that I love which was you know your your relay policy doesn't make you

126
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:44,980
a different Bitcoiner. It doesn't mean you support

127
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a different Bitcoin. We still have the

128
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same consensus rules.

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We're still Bitcoiners. We're agreeing on the

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same things. Everything else is just

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like, that's just

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your opinion, man.

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The title of our last show that we did

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together, I put it as

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a quote from you, which is, Bitcoin is

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winning. Stop worrying. And I thought

137
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that was pretty good advice.

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I don't know what it is about

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the human psyche that

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it's like Bitcoin trades sideways for a little while.

141
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And Bitcoiners, instead of being more externally focused

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at existential threats, turn more inward

143
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and start getting at each other's throats.

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And I don't know if that's just like-

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It's not a new phenomenon, right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, like at the end of the revolution,

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the revolutionaries cue each other, right?

149
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Like it's always like that

150
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because like all a revolutionary knows to do

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is to be a revolutionary.

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Like, you know, people like, you know,

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it's the same reason why people come back from war

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and start shooting other people.

155
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You know, it's very hard for you to step out of that fight mode,

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you know, and accept that shit is just fine.

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You know, it's like, you know, it's like the go walk on grass meme.

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You know, listen, I'm guilty too.

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I'm on Twitter shitposting and, you know,

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like participating in the in the pointless like the many pointless discussions because it's

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entertaining but at the end of the day like you know i walk barefoot on some sand and i remember

162
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that like you know like the my my uh the the coins that i lost in a bolt accident are you know

163
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probably worth a lot you know and that's it it's like just just accept that you know we're winning

164
00:09:32,740 --> 00:09:41,460
like it's hard losing is clearly more fun for some people yeah it it is funny i'm so sorry to

165
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hear about that boating accident you should really be more careful when you're out there on boats but

166
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i understand i lost i lost my keys as well in a boating accident so if anybody sees them you know

167
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let me know but i think it's strange to me that we can have i mean i guess how do i say this

168
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everybody just seems to be talking past each other and not actually like I it's almost like

169
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this search for purpose and meaning and like this feeling that you need to every person feels they

170
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need to somehow save Bitcoin like the Bitcoin is somehow right on the verge of dying at any given

171
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time and that it needs to be saved and if you don't act right now you know it is it is going

172
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to fall into the abyss, never to recover.

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And it's just kind of funny.

174
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We have a lot of main character syndrome.

175
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People want to feel important.

176
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People want to feel like they matter.

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People want to feel like their node matters.

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This whole meme about the plebs and the running the nodes,

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a complete idiosity.

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It was invented for people to feel good about themselves,

181
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but no, that's not how it works.

182
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It's just like keeping a node powered on on the internet

183
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doesn't do anything to Bitcoin.

184
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because if it did, Bitcoin could be cymbal.

185
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Imagine if node count mattered.

186
00:10:57,420 --> 00:11:00,660
You could just have a massive credit card like state actors do

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and just go on Amazon and run a million nodes.

188
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This is something that I thought this had been discussed ad nauseum

189
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to the point where most people understood this,

190
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that just the act of having a node online

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doesn't actually do anything meaningful.

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Again, I went back to our last discussion almost two years ago, and I was looking through some of the notes on it, and we literally talked about we went through economic nodes because there was a big amount of confusion at that time about what an economic node is.

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And here we are again with apparently people not understanding what an economic node is.

194
00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:44,400
And it's just like, I mean, is it worthwhile for you to take like the one minute to explain why an economic node matters?

195
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like again for people, for those who didn't see the first episode

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and haven't been paying attention apparently.

197
00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:50,880
Can you break that down for us?

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And I feel bad even asking because you probably talked about this,

199
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,500
you know, 10,000 times for you personally,

200
00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,560
but can you break that down a little bit for people

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00:11:57,560 --> 00:11:58,940
so that they understand what you mean?

202
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,040
So what is an economic node?

203
00:12:01,340 --> 00:12:05,840
An economic node is a node that self-validates, right, transactions, right?

204
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:11,960
So Coinbase sending and receiving transactions in their node,

205
00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:16,280
in the name of 1 million users

206
00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:20,040
is a very important node in the network, right?

207
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,280
They're essentially representing 1 million people's money

208
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,500
and it's relaying those transactions,

209
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it's checking those transactions, right?

210
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,580
So if they diverged,

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we would have a serious economic problem in Bitcoin, right?

212
00:12:37,820 --> 00:12:41,820
Can you imagine like a million people's worth of coins

213
00:12:41,820 --> 00:12:44,160
just takes a different fork now.

214
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That's a problem, right?

215
00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:49,500
So that is a node that has economic capacity

216
00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:52,840
and economic participation in the Bitcoin space, right?

217
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,080
You know, a plebe node with a few cents there, right?

218
00:12:58,400 --> 00:12:59,980
Like, does that node matter?

219
00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:00,900
No.

220
00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:04,600
I mean, I know it sucks, but it doesn't, right?

221
00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:07,620
Bitcoin is not about like, you know, equality.

222
00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:10,580
Bitcoin is about fairness.

223
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It's a very, very different thing.

224
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:18,280
You know, it's like we have a fair network that provides the same rules to everyone.

225
00:13:18,420 --> 00:13:22,440
It doesn't matter if you're king or if you're drunk or both.

226
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,280
You have the same rules, right?

227
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,840
Like everybody gets to enjoy the same rules.

228
00:13:27,980 --> 00:13:30,700
Nobody with more can rug you, right?

229
00:13:30,860 --> 00:13:38,160
But that doesn't mean that your voice, your node is worth the same as, you know, a massive exchange node.

230
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:43,760
or Michael Saylor's node is worth a lot.

231
00:13:45,380 --> 00:13:47,760
He's representing a lot of shareholders there.

232
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:50,360
But here's the funny part.

233
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His personal node, it kind of starts to diminish a bit

234
00:13:55,300 --> 00:13:56,320
how important it is.

235
00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,660
Is he going to dump his 10,000 coins personally?

236
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Would that hurt in the day trade candle?

237
00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:05,660
Sure, but does that matter?

238
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No.

239
00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:12,280
right like this is this is why it's so important for people to understand that like you know in

240
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the aggregate um you know it matters is is rough we never know what the number is it's not possible

241
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:29,160
to know what the number is is an ever-changing system dynamic right um so you know if if a single

242
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,300
human being decides to fork off, well, I mean, good luck.

243
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:37,220
If a group of people want to fork off, but

244
00:14:37,220 --> 00:14:40,700
it turns out that they are not going to carry with them the hash rate

245
00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:45,200
and a lot of the economic capacity of the network, well, that's

246
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:46,260
great to get an airdrop.

247
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,840
We get to sell the coins that are part of that fork

248
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,560
and inform that fork that they're worth zero now.

249
00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,960
and we've literally seen this happen i mean it's not this isn't like uh this isn't you

250
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:06,220
imagining this like we this has literally happened at multiple times that's correct

251
00:15:06,220 --> 00:15:12,400
and you know so like i think people just need a reality check it's like you know i love the meme

252
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:19,160
is like you know i don't matter because you don't fucking matter like it's literally the whole point

253
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:25,940
of the system it always to make individuals matter less you know like be less effective

254
00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:29,880
at disrupting the network on a positive or negative.

255
00:15:31,260 --> 00:15:35,700
And, you know, like the democratizing meme,

256
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,280
all those like kumbaya things, like leave them behind.

257
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,500
All the democracy thing, leave them behind.

258
00:15:41,660 --> 00:15:43,840
It's like Bitcoin's anarchy, right?

259
00:15:44,380 --> 00:15:46,900
It does not have religious attribution.

260
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:48,740
It does not have political attributions.

261
00:15:48,740 --> 00:15:49,820
It doesn't have fucking anything.

262
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,760
It's just a mathematical system, right?

263
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,960
with extremely conservative economic values, right?

264
00:15:57,500 --> 00:15:58,700
And for anarchy.

265
00:16:00,020 --> 00:16:02,100
What if you could lower your tax bill

266
00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:04,120
and stack Bitcoin at the same time?

267
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,100
Well, by mining Bitcoin with blockware, you can.

268
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,100
New tax guidelines from the big, beautiful bill

269
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:13,560
allow American miners to write off 100% of the cost

270
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,280
of their mining hardware in a single tax year.

271
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,060
That is right, a 100% write-off.

272
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,480
So if you have $100,000 in capital gains or income,

273
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:27,160
you can purchase $100,000 worth of miners and offset it entirely.

274
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:32,140
Blockware's mining as a service enables you to start mining right now without lifting a finger.

275
00:16:32,420 --> 00:16:36,960
Blockware handles everything from securing the miners to sourcing low-cost power

276
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:38,740
to configuring the mining pool.

277
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:39,800
They do it all.

278
00:16:40,220 --> 00:16:43,420
You get to stack Bitcoin at a discount every single day

279
00:16:43,420 --> 00:16:46,320
while also saving big come tax season.

280
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:53,320
Get started today by going to mining.blockwaresolutions.com slash titcoin.

281
00:16:53,660 --> 00:16:59,200
Again, that's mining.blockwaresolutions.com slash titcoin.

282
00:16:59,580 --> 00:17:04,980
Use the code titcoin to get $100 off your first miner when using the Blockware marketplace.

283
00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:07,640
Of course, none of this is tax advice from me.

284
00:17:07,940 --> 00:17:10,120
Go speak with the team at Blockware to learn more.

285
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:15,300
One more time, that is mining.blockwaresolutions.com slash titcoin.

286
00:17:16,180 --> 00:17:16,300
Yeah.

287
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:23,220
Well, I think that that's tough for people to actually grasp because we don't have anything that looks like that.

288
00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:28,260
There's nothing that's like that in the fiat system to the extent that Bitcoin is.

289
00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:29,360
This is a new paradigm.

290
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:31,420
So I empathize with people.

291
00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:33,400
And obviously, I didn't understand it right away.

292
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,160
You know, like, you know, the only person who understood it right away, I guess, was Satoshi.

293
00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:38,720
Everybody else had to, you know, kind of like.

294
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:39,600
We all get it wrong.

295
00:17:40,380 --> 00:17:43,840
It's totally like it's a very complicated new paradigm.

296
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:44,360
Yeah.

297
00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:50,480
like you know it's it's very similar to you know like oh there is electricity now there wasn't

298
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:55,440
before it's like you know is this like witchcraft right like people are confused for fucking 100

299
00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:00,440
years right like i mean the posters of when the electricity was sort of like starting to be

300
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:05,860
publicized they're amazing it's like oh my god this is witchcraft oh you touch you die you know

301
00:18:05,860 --> 00:18:11,320
it's like yeah you know that that's how it works it's either accept that this thing is awesome and

302
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:12,160
is going to go somewhere.

303
00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:14,120
So you have that sort of like a bit of a,

304
00:18:15,180 --> 00:18:25,240
some, you have some faith

305
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,220
that the system will go somewhere.

306
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:28,300
You have some belief.

307
00:18:28,620 --> 00:18:31,000
You do that with a lot of agency

308
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:32,740
by reading what you can understand,

309
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,500
you know, and you essentially have a long position on it, right?

310
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:38,880
Or don't.

311
00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:40,800
Nobody gives a shit.

312
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,220
Like, you know, sorry, we don't need you.

313
00:18:45,260 --> 00:18:48,600
You know, I know it sucks to hear it, but we don't need you.

314
00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:49,680
We don't need anybody.

315
00:18:49,780 --> 00:18:50,500
We don't need core.

316
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:51,780
We don't need knots.

317
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:52,860
We don't need anybody.

318
00:18:52,980 --> 00:18:54,900
This thing is going to keep like TikTok another block.

319
00:18:55,020 --> 00:18:56,380
I'm still running client 22.

320
00:18:56,660 --> 00:18:57,160
It works.

321
00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:00,540
You know, does it work for lightning nodes?

322
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,580
No, but I'm not running lightning.

323
00:19:02,860 --> 00:19:05,280
I'm talking about Bitcoin base layer works, right?

324
00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:07,380
You know, is it nice to have lightning work?

325
00:19:07,500 --> 00:19:07,880
Yes.

326
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:13,580
you know should we change bitcoin to to change because even further to make lightning work

327
00:19:13,580 --> 00:19:19,600
probably not you know it's like you have a system that works like have some fucking respect

328
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:26,980
it's i think it's hard for people to say or to acknowledge that oh it's going to be fine without

329
00:19:26,980 --> 00:19:32,420
me like right sure does it need everyone in the collective to use it to even to exist like if

330
00:19:32,420 --> 00:19:37,860
nobody was using bitcoin yeah it wouldn't like it wouldn't matter anyway right but we're all here

331
00:19:37,860 --> 00:19:43,200
But you as an individual, like you have, you're not going to save Bitcoin.

332
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:44,100
It's admirable.

333
00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:45,540
No, you're not here to save Bitcoin.

334
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:47,560
I just got here and I'm here to save Bitcoin.

335
00:19:47,620 --> 00:19:48,160
No, you're not.

336
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:49,100
No, you're not.

337
00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:51,040
And everybody finds it out fast.

338
00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:52,140
And if they don't, they rage quit.

339
00:19:53,060 --> 00:19:53,300
Yeah.

340
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,700
Are we about to enter a season of rage quitting?

341
00:19:56,180 --> 00:19:56,840
Oh, absolutely.

342
00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:58,400
I can totally see it.

343
00:19:58,740 --> 00:20:01,680
I already have a personal list just for the fun of it.

344
00:20:01,740 --> 00:20:04,060
I already have a list of people I think will quit.

345
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:04,880
Got it.

346
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:05,640
Got it ready to go.

347
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:05,960
Okay.

348
00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:06,940
Personal wagers.

349
00:20:06,940 --> 00:20:08,960
I don't publicize these things.

350
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:10,300
I don't wish harm on anyone.

351
00:20:10,660 --> 00:20:11,640
I love all these people.

352
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:12,840
I really do.

353
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,940
I think everybody is like,

354
00:20:16,580 --> 00:20:18,400
regardless of their role,

355
00:20:19,060 --> 00:20:20,340
it takes many types.

356
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:22,560
It takes many kinds of people

357
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,160
to build something huge.

358
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,100
So in that sense, I love everybody.

359
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:31,480
But realistically speaking,

360
00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:35,820
we know that people will not be able to accept

361
00:20:35,820 --> 00:20:37,500
and they will rage quit.

362
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,500
It's just the natural course of Bitcoin.

363
00:20:40,580 --> 00:20:42,000
I had to bring up this.

364
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:42,920
Oh, there is a poster.

365
00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:43,940
It's one of my favorite posters.

366
00:20:43,940 --> 00:20:44,460
All the electricity.

367
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,280
I mean, it's amazing.

368
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:47,880
Like you just look at this, you know,

369
00:20:47,940 --> 00:20:50,880
I mean, the guy, I love the skull that's in the,

370
00:20:51,020 --> 00:20:52,580
on the, you know, electrical pole,

371
00:20:52,740 --> 00:20:54,500
just for added benefit, the light bulb.

372
00:20:54,580 --> 00:20:56,200
Like, it's all just incredible.

373
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,160
You got the constable running away from it,

374
00:20:58,220 --> 00:21:00,000
you know, just amazing stuff.

375
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,320
But, and that's, I feel like where,

376
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:02,860
that's kind of where we're at right now.

377
00:21:02,860 --> 00:21:10,720
It's like everyone's literally going to die and Bitcoin is going to fail if we don't do something right now.

378
00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:15,560
I mean, when you go hyperbolic on Bitcoin, you tend to lose the crowd.

379
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:17,480
Don't lose the audience.

380
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:21,120
Don't lose the audience.

381
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,620
Because once you lose the audience, it's very, very hard to get it back, right?

382
00:21:26,100 --> 00:21:31,180
And I think both sides made some good arguments.

383
00:21:31,180 --> 00:21:33,020
Both sides made terrible arguments.

384
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,480
And now both sides are losing the audience.

385
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:37,580
Yeah.

386
00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:42,700
Because I think people are just, the average pleb out there is just tired of it.

387
00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:45,660
The suit coiners haven't cared this entire time.

388
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:47,520
Well, because they know it's working.

389
00:21:48,020 --> 00:21:48,240
Yeah.

390
00:21:48,540 --> 00:21:51,740
You know, like, you know, they did their due diligence, right?

391
00:21:51,820 --> 00:21:56,920
They saw the blocks are coming, the clients are working, you know, like the fuck they care.

392
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:02,140
All you have to do is open, you just have to open your node once in a while to sync it,

393
00:22:02,180 --> 00:22:05,900
check the next few transactions that went in your treasury are good, they're good, great,

394
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:07,620
close the laptop, move on.

395
00:22:08,380 --> 00:22:09,260
Yeah, yeah.

396
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,660
And it's like, meanwhile, plebs are whipping themselves into a frenzy or being whipped

397
00:22:14,660 --> 00:22:15,300
into a frenzy.

398
00:22:15,380 --> 00:22:16,560
I don't know which one it is.

399
00:22:17,180 --> 00:22:23,420
It seems to me, I mean, so you've, I think, done a good job of calling out on both, again,

400
00:22:23,540 --> 00:22:24,500
quote, both sides.

401
00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:26,820
I'm using this just because this is the way it's being talked about.

402
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:34,120
but on quote both sides of this quote debate calling out what you see as kind of improper or

403
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:39,720
just just bad you know decision making processes is it worthwhile to talk about that at all in

404
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:44,260
terms of like what okay listen guys here's if if you want to make it through this without losing

405
00:22:44,260 --> 00:22:48,680
your mind and rage quitting here's how this conversation could have been approached a bit

406
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:53,260
better do you want to talk that about that at all or is it we can also skip it because i'm good with

407
00:22:53,260 --> 00:22:58,120
that too i mean i can put like a very small two cents it's just like i mean listen who am i to

408
00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:05,280
tell people what to do but you know it's like first of all if you don't want to lose your coins

409
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:11,880
just turn off twitter go go stack more sats and fuck everything else honestly like you know being

410
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:18,060
worried about this stuff it's when a lot of people sell i remember the dms when you know uasf was

411
00:23:18,060 --> 00:23:22,840
happening and people were like hey man you know i'm scared i'm gonna sell my coins for now until

412
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,960
the set. No, stop that. Just go fucking move on in your life. Nobody gives a shit.

413
00:23:29,540 --> 00:23:36,900
You know, I feel like there are some very valid grievances. The arguments for removing the

414
00:23:36,900 --> 00:23:45,360
up return limit were very poor. Some big names weighed it in. They're also not ideal, like

415
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:51,140
not very convincing arguments. But now there's a reality that the filters don't work.

416
00:23:52,840 --> 00:24:04,714
But you can also just do nothing You know like Jesus can just fucking do nothing You don have to do something You know Core has been an absolute clusterfuck

417
00:24:04,714 --> 00:24:06,833
on how they handle users, businesses.

418
00:24:09,014 --> 00:24:11,833
You know, I think it's sort of like,

419
00:24:11,894 --> 00:24:15,133
maybe it's just like the more Gen Z sort of vibe to it,

420
00:24:15,553 --> 00:24:18,034
where, you know, they're not as tactful

421
00:24:18,034 --> 00:24:23,053
or as laid back and can handle the heat.

422
00:24:24,353 --> 00:24:26,833
as easy.

423
00:24:28,774 --> 00:24:32,174
And, you know, again, they're losing the audience.

424
00:24:33,613 --> 00:24:36,073
You know, most of them are preoccupied with Layer 2.

425
00:24:36,833 --> 00:24:38,754
You know, there's a lot of that.

426
00:24:39,833 --> 00:24:41,833
And, you know, the people that don't care about Layer 2,

427
00:24:41,954 --> 00:24:45,014
well, you know, it's like they don't care about your preferences.

428
00:24:45,313 --> 00:24:47,494
Like it's, you know, Bitcoin is working, right?

429
00:24:48,073 --> 00:24:50,093
That's not to say that it's not important to have Layer 2.

430
00:24:50,093 --> 00:24:52,994
Like, none of these things are absolute

431
00:24:52,994 --> 00:24:54,494
and there's many ways to look at them, right?

432
00:24:54,813 --> 00:24:56,293
And then you have the dot side

433
00:24:56,293 --> 00:24:58,333
that went complete fucking batshit insane.

434
00:24:58,894 --> 00:25:00,793
Like, you know, like once you bring CSAM,

435
00:25:00,914 --> 00:25:02,474
I mean, like, you know, the conversation is over.

436
00:25:02,853 --> 00:25:04,454
Like, really, like it's, that's it.

437
00:25:04,694 --> 00:25:06,534
Just conversation is done.

438
00:25:08,934 --> 00:25:11,714
So yeah, I mean, that's where we're at now.

439
00:25:11,833 --> 00:25:14,853
It's like, you know, both sides are absolutely insufferable.

440
00:25:16,633 --> 00:25:20,073
And so my answer to that is I don't upgrade my node.

441
00:25:20,073 --> 00:25:21,034
and I welcome,

442
00:25:21,293 --> 00:25:21,754
seriously,

443
00:25:21,914 --> 00:25:23,373
I recommend everybody

444
00:25:23,373 --> 00:25:24,133
just stop upgrading.

445
00:25:24,774 --> 00:25:26,873
This idea of upgrading software

446
00:25:26,873 --> 00:25:28,133
is like,

447
00:25:28,194 --> 00:25:29,394
this is Windows mentality.

448
00:25:30,394 --> 00:25:30,674
You know,

449
00:25:30,734 --> 00:25:31,994
like I come from,

450
00:25:32,053 --> 00:25:32,234
you know,

451
00:25:32,274 --> 00:25:33,353
the FreeBSD side.

452
00:25:33,474 --> 00:25:34,234
It's just don't upgrade.

453
00:25:34,714 --> 00:25:34,873
You know,

454
00:25:34,894 --> 00:25:35,793
I have servers running

455
00:25:35,793 --> 00:25:36,573
in 70 years,

456
00:25:36,633 --> 00:25:37,434
10 years of time.

457
00:25:38,813 --> 00:25:39,694
I'm going to upgrade.

458
00:25:39,833 --> 00:25:40,373
It's not broken.

459
00:25:40,754 --> 00:25:41,873
There is no major vulnerability

460
00:25:41,873 --> 00:25:42,833
that matters.

461
00:25:43,133 --> 00:25:44,174
There is no major vulnerability

462
00:25:44,174 --> 00:25:45,333
in Bitcoin client

463
00:25:45,333 --> 00:25:46,454
that requires an update.

464
00:25:47,174 --> 00:25:47,373
You know,

465
00:25:47,934 --> 00:25:48,934
all the vulnerabilities

466
00:25:48,934 --> 00:25:50,014
are more sort of like

467
00:25:50,014 --> 00:25:52,833
of the category of like, yeah, they can crush your node.

468
00:25:52,954 --> 00:25:55,214
Yeah, well, you start the laptop again, you know.

469
00:25:56,214 --> 00:25:57,894
None of my nodes have been taken down.

470
00:26:00,133 --> 00:26:02,914
So, you know, clearly not a widespread problem.

471
00:26:02,914 --> 00:26:05,254
And, you know, most people are not running Lightning

472
00:26:05,254 --> 00:26:08,873
self-custodially because self-custodial Lightning

473
00:26:08,873 --> 00:26:12,474
is fully broken, you know, just being very honest.

474
00:26:13,793 --> 00:26:14,894
You know, Lightning is great.

475
00:26:15,133 --> 00:26:16,914
Custodial Lightning, fantastic, works.

476
00:26:17,254 --> 00:26:18,333
You know, upgrade those nodes.

477
00:26:20,014 --> 00:26:24,154
Yeah, I think I'll leave it at that. Otherwise, I'm just going to start inciting more hate.

478
00:26:25,093 --> 00:26:27,934
A little bit more bland.

479
00:26:28,734 --> 00:26:48,373
No, fair enough. So I mean, and again, this is, it's very funny, people, people automatically assume in in this conversation that if you say something that is against what they view as against their opinion of how they perceive things to work, they view you as the enemy, you must be a shill for the other side.

480
00:26:48,373 --> 00:26:53,894
right and when in reality it's like no you can just i can just think that you know the options

481
00:26:53,894 --> 00:26:57,113
on the table are not actually addressing the things that you think they're addressing like

482
00:26:57,113 --> 00:27:01,954
i haven't upgraded my node in i don't know a couple of no it's been i mean at least a year

483
00:27:01,954 --> 00:27:07,414
a year plus maybe maybe more like i that's that's what i've told people as well as you know look you

484
00:27:07,414 --> 00:27:11,934
no bitcoin nodes are meant to be backwards compatible like each node implementation

485
00:27:11,934 --> 00:27:14,633
upgrade like that's the whole thing it needs to be backwards compatible right

486
00:27:14,633 --> 00:27:20,654
yep and so in like unless as you said there's a major some sort of security vulnerability that's

487
00:27:20,654 --> 00:27:24,873
discovered something like that you shouldn't need to update your note but if you want to go for it

488
00:27:24,873 --> 00:27:28,674
and if you want to run knots go for it like do whatever you want but just be realistic about what

489
00:27:28,674 --> 00:27:33,014
that choice actually means and if it is actually doing the things that you are being told it's

490
00:27:33,014 --> 00:27:37,974
doing in terms of you saving bitcoin and that's kind of where it's like we should be yeah like

491
00:27:37,974 --> 00:27:44,793
live and let live go touch grass it's all going to be okay bitcoin is winning um and let's remember

492
00:27:44,793 --> 00:27:51,734
this we are replacing a absolutely clusterfucked fiat system and this is uh as messy as this might

493
00:27:51,734 --> 00:27:56,954
be in bitcoin man it's it's still a heck of a lot better than that and i feel like that is uh

494
00:27:56,954 --> 00:28:03,353
that is forgotten even by bitcoiners which is which is shocking yeah yeah i i did want to ask

495
00:28:03,353 --> 00:28:08,254
just so more broadly, like, cause I think we've said enough about the, the, the current, uh,

496
00:28:08,394 --> 00:28:13,654
current drama for now. And it's been just drained ad nauseum by so many people on so many podcasts.

497
00:28:13,994 --> 00:28:19,754
Uh, and, and I, the last thing I'll say is I would love to know, like also be scared to know the

498
00:28:19,754 --> 00:28:25,674
cumulative time that has been spent just like debating and debating and rehashing these same

499
00:28:25,674 --> 00:28:30,533
points with people talking past each other. Like it's in terms of man hour years, like it's,

500
00:28:30,533 --> 00:28:34,353
it's decades of cumulative time that have just been burned on this,

501
00:28:34,414 --> 00:28:34,793
but okay,

502
00:28:34,894 --> 00:28:35,214
whatever.

503
00:28:35,954 --> 00:28:39,333
Where do you sit on more broadly,

504
00:28:39,333 --> 00:28:40,454
like zooming out a little bit,

505
00:28:41,174 --> 00:28:41,414
quote,

506
00:28:41,633 --> 00:28:44,234
upgrading Bitcoin versus maintaining Bitcoin.

507
00:28:44,373 --> 00:28:44,694
Do you,

508
00:28:44,793 --> 00:28:49,174
are there privacy and scaling upgrades that you think need to happen and

509
00:28:49,174 --> 00:28:50,053
should happen in Bitcoin?

510
00:28:50,434 --> 00:28:52,293
Or are you more of the opinion that,

511
00:28:52,434 --> 00:28:52,573
Hey,

512
00:28:52,853 --> 00:28:55,133
what we have works well,

513
00:28:55,414 --> 00:28:56,754
let's not mess that up.

514
00:28:56,833 --> 00:28:59,514
Let's focus on scaling on other,

515
00:28:59,593 --> 00:28:59,873
you know,

516
00:28:59,873 --> 00:29:01,914
other higher layers, let's say?

517
00:29:02,694 --> 00:29:04,494
I think there's just two things

518
00:29:04,494 --> 00:29:06,014
that must be very separated.

519
00:29:06,633 --> 00:29:08,654
One is consensus changes.

520
00:29:08,793 --> 00:29:11,093
The other one is non-consensus changes, right?

521
00:29:11,133 --> 00:29:12,234
To Bitcoin Core, the client.

522
00:29:13,894 --> 00:29:16,633
I mean, like, I really wish the, you know,

523
00:29:16,674 --> 00:29:19,174
and this is like idiotic of me to even think about,

524
00:29:19,234 --> 00:29:22,254
like wishing that somebody else would do something

525
00:29:22,254 --> 00:29:25,934
is like, you know, it's like pissing in the wind, right?

526
00:29:25,934 --> 00:29:28,434
I mean, you know, like, who am I to wish

527
00:29:28,434 --> 00:29:30,454
the core went in a different direction, right?

528
00:29:30,494 --> 00:29:32,133
I mean, like I should just like, you know,

529
00:29:32,774 --> 00:29:35,174
pull my sleeves and go do it myself, right?

530
00:29:35,214 --> 00:29:37,434
Like this is a full meritocracy, right?

531
00:29:37,593 --> 00:29:39,934
But if any core person is listening,

532
00:29:40,573 --> 00:29:44,454
like, you know, go build an indexer on Bitcoin Core.

533
00:29:44,853 --> 00:29:47,434
Like it's nothing to do with consensus,

534
00:29:47,434 --> 00:29:49,514
but like, you know, we shouldn't need to need

535
00:29:49,514 --> 00:29:53,154
like Electrum server for SPV light nodes, right?

536
00:29:53,274 --> 00:29:56,434
Like Bitcoin Core should have an indexer.

537
00:29:56,434 --> 00:29:58,274
Bitcoin Core should support PIP39.

538
00:29:58,714 --> 00:30:05,454
Like there's a bunch of like low hanging fruit things that the market needs, business needs, right?

539
00:30:05,553 --> 00:30:12,873
That like would come a long way in also buying goodwill from industry for the client.

540
00:30:14,954 --> 00:30:22,514
Now on consensus changes, I mean, you know, like there's personal preferences, but like, you know, maybe they're misguided for me too.

541
00:30:22,514 --> 00:30:29,514
I'd love to have Covenants just because I want to have on-chain vaults.

542
00:30:30,533 --> 00:30:34,793
I want the security to be not code card-based.

543
00:30:34,934 --> 00:30:38,593
I want the security to be Bitcoin block-based.

544
00:30:40,254 --> 00:30:42,313
There's a lot of design space there.

545
00:30:42,434 --> 00:30:46,894
But unfortunately, the Covenant conversation gets hijacked by layer twos.

546
00:30:48,113 --> 00:30:50,053
Love to them. I know they need it.

547
00:30:50,053 --> 00:30:54,934
But like, you know, just talking from pure sort of selfish necessities, right?

548
00:30:55,234 --> 00:31:15,234
Like, you know, and I think that, you know, for example, the covenant discussions, you know, if they would go make the case for all these economic actors that they can have amazing on-chain vaults, you'd be a lot more palatable of a change than talking about how they want to pay for, you know, feeding chickens on the internet, right?

549
00:31:15,234 --> 00:31:23,234
Can you talk a little bit about just for folks who may not be totally familiar, the basics of what covenants are and how these on-chain vaults work?

550
00:31:23,293 --> 00:31:30,514
Because it's something that seems kind of like pretty cool to me, like as genuine, like it would be useful for, I mean, and not just for businesses.

551
00:31:31,014 --> 00:31:36,174
So right now, if you want, the spending condition right now is on the output, right?

552
00:31:36,174 --> 00:31:40,494
So, you know, like when you send it, like you're sending into a multi-sig address.

553
00:31:40,494 --> 00:31:46,093
Therefore, that address requires the two signatures for you to move to the next address, right?

554
00:31:46,533 --> 00:31:50,293
What we're trying to do is the spending conditions to be on the input.

555
00:31:51,293 --> 00:31:56,073
So that means that you can move with spending conditions from that contract.

556
00:31:57,014 --> 00:32:08,113
So, for example, let's say, you know, you create a vault and that Bitcoin address itself knows that it cannot be spent unless it meets some conditions.

557
00:32:10,494 --> 00:32:14,373
I'm putting it very crudely to see if it makes sense.

558
00:32:15,174 --> 00:32:18,774
But the point is, we could create a vault saying, for example,

559
00:32:19,914 --> 00:32:23,553
the money doesn't move from here more than one Bitcoin a month.

560
00:32:24,373 --> 00:32:25,914
Count it in blocks, of course.

561
00:32:25,914 --> 00:32:29,474
But that kind of amazing spending conditions.

562
00:32:30,174 --> 00:32:33,894
Spending policies are how you find amazing security

563
00:32:33,894 --> 00:32:35,853
and still remain functional.

564
00:32:35,853 --> 00:32:41,633
right because it's easy to put like you know a private key under the ocean and just leave it

565
00:32:41,633 --> 00:32:51,773
there you know it's very hard for somebody to get it right um now if you have um you know in order

566
00:32:51,773 --> 00:32:58,313
to become capable of signing and having security around that signing operationally that's really

567
00:32:58,313 --> 00:33:03,593
where the magic is at because that's where the trade-offs and the balances come in right and

568
00:33:03,593 --> 00:33:08,714
And being able to do that with on-chain policies versus cold card policies would be a huge upgrade.

569
00:33:10,853 --> 00:33:20,853
Yeah, I mean, and again, this seems like one of those things, I would assume there's not as much, let's say, general resistance to this.

570
00:33:20,914 --> 00:33:23,694
It's just there's maybe not as much general knowledge about this.

571
00:33:23,773 --> 00:33:24,313
Is that fair?

572
00:33:25,513 --> 00:33:27,593
I mean, like there is some FUD around it.

573
00:33:27,593 --> 00:33:34,234
You know, there is some core FUD around the fact that there is no demand for it, which is absolutely absurd.

574
00:33:35,434 --> 00:33:40,234
You know, there was no demand for up return limit removal.

575
00:33:41,573 --> 00:33:43,093
You know, and that was changed.

576
00:33:43,494 --> 00:33:45,013
So that pisses me off.

577
00:33:46,934 --> 00:33:56,133
There is, you know, there is definitely like amazing applications that's already been demonstrated, you know, like as well as you can do without changing Bitcoin.

578
00:33:57,593 --> 00:34:08,874
Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, you know, we, I mean, there were some fud around how, you know, like the governments can get into the covenants and whatever.

579
00:34:08,874 --> 00:34:15,573
Like it's the same with multisig, they, you know, the government wanted to force you to be a cosigner, you know, of your keys or something.

580
00:34:15,914 --> 00:34:18,454
So like, you know, idiotism.

581
00:34:18,454 --> 00:34:29,573
And yeah, I mean, I don't, you know, but it does change Bitcoin, which is like, I think the only fair, real sort of negative to it is like it changes Bitcoin.

582
00:34:30,713 --> 00:34:30,854
Right.

583
00:34:30,914 --> 00:34:33,593
Like now we have a fundamental change to it.

584
00:34:34,894 --> 00:34:46,093
Do you think it's actually something that can't like, is something that's going to be implemented eventually, but it's just going to take a lot more time just because of the fundamental nature of the change?

585
00:34:48,454 --> 00:34:52,713
I don't know, like, you know, some days I wake up thinking that we can still do some changes on Bitcoin.

586
00:34:52,834 --> 00:34:54,874
Some days I wake up saying that we're fully ossified.

587
00:34:55,093 --> 00:34:56,013
So I don't.

588
00:34:56,133 --> 00:34:59,394
I mean, the only change, there's only one change we have to make to Bitcoin.

589
00:34:59,694 --> 00:35:01,914
We have to fix the Unix timecode.

590
00:35:02,294 --> 00:35:03,513
There is no choice on that.

591
00:35:04,213 --> 00:35:06,434
The day will come and it's going to have to be changed, period.

592
00:35:06,553 --> 00:35:07,454
Or Bitcoin stops.

593
00:35:09,474 --> 00:35:15,253
Can you, and again, just for folks, can you explain that one a little bit just in layman's terms?

594
00:35:15,253 --> 00:35:18,613
I feel like that's not even a controversial one.

595
00:35:18,733 --> 00:35:20,133
That's just like this needs to be done.

596
00:35:20,133 --> 00:35:20,593
It's just the encoding.

597
00:35:21,013 --> 00:35:23,133
Think about it as just like the encoding.

598
00:35:24,394 --> 00:35:27,513
Old computers used to do the encoding of dates in a certain way,

599
00:35:27,854 --> 00:35:29,733
and they're done differently now.

600
00:35:30,233 --> 00:35:33,113
So in order to remain compatible with computers,

601
00:35:33,294 --> 00:35:34,733
you have to fix that.

602
00:35:36,474 --> 00:35:37,093
It really is that.

603
00:35:37,694 --> 00:35:41,233
Think about it like the best way to think about it is Y2K.

604
00:35:41,773 --> 00:35:43,593
If they had not fixed the computers,

605
00:35:43,593 --> 00:35:52,174
like you know some computers crashed like it's similar to that do you think uh just on this topic

606
00:35:52,174 --> 00:35:57,394
of ossification because i think people often get confused and think ossification is like some choice

607
00:35:57,394 --> 00:36:02,613
that happens like okay and now we'll ossify but it's really not a choice right it's it's more of

608
00:36:02,613 --> 00:36:08,033
just a natural result of uh of a process that happens is that a fair way to describe it and i

609
00:36:08,033 --> 00:36:21,814
I mean, I think you're kind of arguing maybe that we may already be at that point where we are sufficiently ossified, where we're just probably not going to change at any meaningful way at the consensus level.

610
00:36:21,814 --> 00:36:27,974
Is that your general kind of, let's say, base level assumption at this point?

611
00:36:28,154 --> 00:36:33,233
I think the best way to look at it is maybe unpopular.

612
00:36:33,233 --> 00:36:44,334
But realistically speaking, Bitcoin really is as ossified as the people at the time are not into changing it.

613
00:36:45,073 --> 00:36:53,454
Because at the end of the day, you know, there is nothing preventing people from 50 years from now from changing the limit of Bitcoin.

614
00:36:54,814 --> 00:36:55,654
You make tail emissions?

615
00:36:55,874 --> 00:36:57,334
The supply. No, the supply. Yeah.

616
00:36:57,773 --> 00:37:00,374
So, you know, there's nothing really holding them back.

617
00:37:00,794 --> 00:37:01,273
Right.

618
00:37:01,273 --> 00:37:10,733
Right. So, you know, like, except for economic forces, right, that would say my family stacked all the way to now.

619
00:37:11,133 --> 00:37:13,773
Fuck you, you're not going to change the limit. Right.

620
00:37:13,773 --> 00:37:17,354
But the point is Bitcoin can be changed.

621
00:37:18,613 --> 00:37:25,713
It's not like it's written in stone somewhere and, you know, the humans around it can't go and just, you know, the humans can do whatever they want.

622
00:37:25,954 --> 00:37:27,374
They might fork off, they might not.

623
00:37:27,374 --> 00:37:31,374
So I think it's important to realize that.

624
00:37:32,374 --> 00:37:39,593
For example, if we did have a quantum advancement in 20 years from now,

625
00:37:40,033 --> 00:37:42,713
that require a change, we might have to change Bitcoin.

626
00:37:43,294 --> 00:37:47,513
But that's something for the humans that are dealing with it at that time,

627
00:37:48,013 --> 00:37:49,414
to deal with it at that time.

628
00:37:50,533 --> 00:37:52,093
You can't control the future.

629
00:37:54,194 --> 00:37:56,994
It's like what trust lawyers always say,

630
00:37:56,994 --> 00:38:02,434
like okay you can set up your trust as tight as you want this way but like you can't really ruin

631
00:38:02,434 --> 00:38:07,133
your children after your dad they're gonna they might figure out a way of breaking the trust rules

632
00:38:07,133 --> 00:38:14,674
you know what i mean it's like your dad get over it do you do you think uh that there's any

633
00:38:14,674 --> 00:38:21,154
reasonable chance of a hard fork happening any time in the near future like is that something

634
00:38:21,154 --> 00:38:26,914
that's it's on your radar like it's right it's not gonna happen like you know i get

635
00:38:26,914 --> 00:38:28,233
No airdrop for us then.

636
00:38:28,253 --> 00:38:29,073
Yeah, no.

637
00:38:29,273 --> 00:38:31,133
I mean, we could get airdrops.

638
00:38:31,253 --> 00:38:32,533
We can definitely get airdrops.

639
00:38:32,753 --> 00:38:38,174
But I mean, I don't think there will be a successful change to Bitcoin

640
00:38:38,174 --> 00:38:41,494
in the near future.

641
00:38:41,633 --> 00:38:43,713
It's just not going to happen.

642
00:38:44,633 --> 00:38:46,174
And it's designed this way.

643
00:38:46,174 --> 00:38:51,694
The more people who don't agree with each other,

644
00:38:51,934 --> 00:38:55,314
don't like each other, have different preferences than each other,

645
00:38:55,314 --> 00:39:01,434
you know share the same rule set share the same network there's less likely you're gonna see

646
00:39:01,434 --> 00:39:07,133
changes happening right it's like it's like getting like you know israelis and palestinians

647
00:39:07,133 --> 00:39:11,834
to agree to turn the whole space into a massive christian swimming pool

648
00:39:11,834 --> 00:39:20,233
both sides are gonna say fuck you right like that's a good analogy do not just know right

649
00:39:20,233 --> 00:39:22,113
Like, I mean, so essentially that's what I'm talking about.

650
00:39:22,273 --> 00:39:27,314
It's just you have more opposing sides sharing a concern, right?

651
00:39:27,414 --> 00:39:35,713
Like you can't, like, it's very difficult to make a massive change that is unilateral by any side.

652
00:39:36,894 --> 00:39:41,733
Do you think on the quantum side of things, because I've seen so many different opinions on this.

653
00:39:41,874 --> 00:39:48,474
Somebody, I don't know, recently, maybe I was just trolling, but was like, if we don't upgrade Bitcoin to be quantum resistant by next year, it's all over.

654
00:39:48,474 --> 00:39:49,233
and I'm like, well, okay.

655
00:39:49,253 --> 00:39:52,073
Again, whenever people put a timeline or something

656
00:39:52,073 --> 00:39:56,294
or make an assumption about like a deadline in Bitcoin,

657
00:39:56,654 --> 00:39:58,093
they're literally full of shit

658
00:39:58,093 --> 00:39:59,513
and they're trying to take your coins.

659
00:40:01,553 --> 00:40:02,954
I mean, it really is that simple.

660
00:40:03,273 --> 00:40:05,474
I mean, it's really like it's phishing 101, right?

661
00:40:05,553 --> 00:40:07,573
Like from a social engineering perspective.

662
00:40:07,573 --> 00:40:08,454
Think about it this way.

663
00:40:08,593 --> 00:40:14,633
Think about Bitcoin as a gigantic options market, right?

664
00:40:14,633 --> 00:40:21,053
Like, it's like, you know, we're all long, right?

665
00:40:21,154 --> 00:40:33,253
So, like, if it was true that quantum is problematic, you would see, you know, the people who have asymmetric information starting to sell, right?

666
00:40:33,454 --> 00:40:41,213
Like, why would they tell anyone about, like, because they don't want the selling to happen while they're selling, right?

667
00:40:41,694 --> 00:40:43,154
They want the best price possible.

668
00:40:43,154 --> 00:40:52,434
so you know it's not yeah it's just you know it's a like the prediction market will go the other way

669
00:40:52,434 --> 00:41:00,014
right um i i don't think you have to worry about any of this stuff and and if this stuff sort of

670
00:41:00,014 --> 00:41:04,573
worries you to turn off the internet and go focus on the stuff you understand

671
00:41:04,573 --> 00:41:10,434
go go touch some grass i you know i like i do i did have just on the topic of touching grass i do

672
00:41:10,434 --> 00:41:16,113
have one more question about the core versus knots uh debacle um is bitcoin gonna die when

673
00:41:16,113 --> 00:41:23,294
core v30 comes out i i i don't think so i don't think it'll make any difference i don't think i

674
00:41:23,294 --> 00:41:28,713
also just for people to understand is that the majority of the network doesn't upgrade to new

675
00:41:28,713 --> 00:41:37,113
software like right away ever you know i don't like unless they need unless they need the specific

676
00:41:37,113 --> 00:41:43,053
thing that's being changed like it's not people don't upgrade you know it takes a long time for

677
00:41:43,053 --> 00:41:54,374
miners to upgrade um you know like yeah it's just stop worrying uh i i had to i had to get that one

678
00:41:54,374 --> 00:41:58,434
in there just to to make sure you know this way when bitcoin dies i'm gonna point back and be like

679
00:41:58,434 --> 00:42:03,394
you told me it would be okay nvk you son of a gun i'm kidding i'm kidding yeah i mean you know it's

680
00:42:03,394 --> 00:42:05,314
It's like, thankfully, it's not a securities law.

681
00:42:05,514 --> 00:42:07,693
This is a commodity, right?

682
00:42:07,874 --> 00:42:09,894
It's like we can speculate.

683
00:42:11,654 --> 00:42:14,053
Speaking of securities, actually, I've got to say,

684
00:42:14,514 --> 00:42:19,314
so you started BitcoinTreasuries.net a while ago.

685
00:42:19,874 --> 00:42:21,233
I mean, it's been a number of years now.

686
00:42:21,233 --> 00:42:22,414
I don't know how long you've had the domain,

687
00:42:22,693 --> 00:42:25,334
but like the site's been active for several years,

688
00:42:25,414 --> 00:42:28,733
long before the current influx of Bitcoin treasury companies.

689
00:42:29,794 --> 00:42:33,193
Question one is, how many domains do you actually own?

690
00:42:33,394 --> 00:42:39,334
ballpark and then question two is did you i mean were you uh were you ever skeptical that this would

691
00:42:39,334 --> 00:42:43,273
blow up the way it did or did you kind of like know like yeah this is going to be a this is going

692
00:42:43,273 --> 00:42:49,994
to be a hot domain no i don't have any domains did you lose those in a voting accident that's right

693
00:42:49,994 --> 00:42:58,113
okay um so you know bitcoiners likes cars things right it's just it's like it's the mindset you

694
00:42:58,113 --> 00:42:59,693
You can't help yourself.

695
00:43:00,553 --> 00:43:02,374
But remember, nobody owns domains.

696
00:43:02,474 --> 00:43:03,434
People rent domains.

697
00:43:03,794 --> 00:43:04,814
It's just like real estate.

698
00:43:04,974 --> 00:43:05,593
You rent domains.

699
00:43:05,693 --> 00:43:07,113
You stop paying, it goes away.

700
00:43:09,814 --> 00:43:11,974
Bitcoin is the only thing you actually own.

701
00:43:15,994 --> 00:43:24,974
So the treasury, what's funny is that the treasury sort of like main concept has been around since the very early days of Bitcoin.

702
00:43:25,334 --> 00:43:26,954
It's not a new concept.

703
00:43:28,113 --> 00:43:30,834
The idea is kind of simple.

704
00:43:30,994 --> 00:43:33,294
It's like any rational state actor,

705
00:43:34,314 --> 00:43:37,854
state actor, any rational economic actor

706
00:43:37,854 --> 00:43:44,133
that sees a better money will sort of acquire it, right?

707
00:43:44,314 --> 00:43:46,954
And like, you know, publicly traded companies

708
00:43:46,954 --> 00:43:48,113
are no different than that.

709
00:43:50,273 --> 00:43:53,133
And, you know, it's just sort of like,

710
00:43:53,633 --> 00:43:55,434
again, it's like I love that meme Bitcoin,

711
00:43:55,753 --> 00:43:57,834
everything is working according to plan, right?

712
00:43:57,834 --> 00:44:01,713
Like, you know, it really is just that.

713
00:44:01,934 --> 00:44:13,854
It's, you know, you have, you know, you have just people buying better money, storing it, and then trying to figure out how to financialize it because that's what Wall Street does.

714
00:44:14,434 --> 00:44:20,934
But, you know, even the publicly traded companies that don't financialize it, like they're just sort of sitting on a pile.

715
00:44:21,053 --> 00:44:23,034
There's lots of them that do that too.

716
00:44:23,034 --> 00:44:27,294
you win because it's just

717
00:44:27,294 --> 00:44:30,553
Bitcoin appreciates faster

718
00:44:30,553 --> 00:44:33,954
that the dollar is dying and then everything else

719
00:44:33,954 --> 00:44:38,494
I mean you can penny stock, you can gamble

720
00:44:38,494 --> 00:44:41,233
but with more predictable things

721
00:44:41,233 --> 00:44:43,314
Bitcoin is the only thing that

722
00:44:43,314 --> 00:44:46,713
is consistent in the last 16 years

723
00:44:46,713 --> 00:44:50,753
Yeah, I think a lot of people

724
00:44:50,753 --> 00:44:56,113
uh and myself i play around with with stocks occasionally with like a very small like

725
00:44:56,113 --> 00:45:02,434
a hilariously small amount of money just to remind myself of what a bad trader i am and then be like

726
00:45:02,434 --> 00:45:06,514
oh yep see you should have just put this in bitcoin you moron um with a few with a few

727
00:45:06,514 --> 00:45:10,654
exceptions um but usually it's like nope should just put it in bitcoin and lived your life and

728
00:45:10,654 --> 00:45:14,053
you would have been better off in the long run should have been podcasting more instead of looking

729
00:45:14,053 --> 00:45:20,374
at those price charts uh but but i think that a lot of people like have perhaps come to that

730
00:45:20,374 --> 00:45:25,374
realization, even with these treasury companies, just because a lot of people bought in on top of

731
00:45:25,374 --> 00:45:29,693
the hype for some of these in the, you know, earlier this summer, and then have now watched

732
00:45:29,693 --> 00:45:34,014
Bitcoin kind of chug along sideways. Now Bitcoin rips. But during that time, treasury companies

733
00:45:34,014 --> 00:45:39,213
kind of took a little dip. But the other thing is like, we're so early in this. We're really,

734
00:45:39,213 --> 00:45:45,073
we're so early in Bitcoin broadly. Like, I don't think we're even out of the innovators phase. If

735
00:45:45,073 --> 00:45:49,894
you want to get into the tech adoption curve, right? Like we're, we're, we're certainly not

736
00:45:49,894 --> 00:45:55,154
even close to the early majority, like not even close. And so I think it's going to be really

737
00:45:55,154 --> 00:45:58,994
fascinating to sort of see how this develops over the coming years. We're also, I think,

738
00:45:59,014 --> 00:46:05,534
about to enter a massive liquidity push environment where like things have been like,

739
00:46:05,534 --> 00:46:10,314
as far as fiat goes, things have been like relatively tight for the past couple of years.

740
00:46:11,273 --> 00:46:14,934
And I don't know, but it's going to get pretty crazy when they turn things back on. I'm just,

741
00:46:14,934 --> 00:46:23,693
I don't know, maybe the government kind of just takes away more of the Fed's cartel autonomy and things get really interesting.

742
00:46:24,213 --> 00:46:25,014
I don't know.

743
00:46:25,253 --> 00:46:28,394
Are you, I mean, you don't have to answer this if you're not comfortable with it.

744
00:46:28,454 --> 00:46:30,354
Do you play around with these treasury companies at all?

745
00:46:30,434 --> 00:46:38,233
Or are you just like focus entirely on stacking Bitcoin and obviously building your companies to stack more Bitcoin?

746
00:46:38,673 --> 00:46:44,294
I mean, like, you know, I am a caveman Bitcoiner.

747
00:46:44,934 --> 00:46:51,034
Right. So like, you know, the bolting accident did and then, you know, never do anything different than that.

748
00:46:52,593 --> 00:46:59,494
And but, you know, like I do have like, you know, some trading accounts that are part of my fiat lives.

749
00:47:00,093 --> 00:47:03,633
You know, like I do have other businesses and have other things going on.

750
00:47:03,673 --> 00:47:07,914
And sometimes you need things that are a little bit more like a fiat universe compatible.

751
00:47:08,414 --> 00:47:11,414
Right. So, yeah, I do own some of the stocks.

752
00:47:12,414 --> 00:47:13,874
I own other stocks.

753
00:47:13,874 --> 00:47:28,654
But the point is, you know, the majority of the people out there, you know, they're not going to have a UTXO.

754
00:47:29,654 --> 00:47:32,414
You know, there is not enough UTXOs for everybody.

755
00:47:33,573 --> 00:47:34,514
I've done the math.

756
00:47:34,593 --> 00:47:35,374
There's a few tweets.

757
00:47:36,434 --> 00:47:36,914
Yeah, yeah.

758
00:47:37,693 --> 00:47:40,854
Seriously, like there's just not enough UTXOs for everybody.

759
00:47:41,894 --> 00:47:43,233
There really isn't.

760
00:47:43,233 --> 00:47:52,314
Like, so the issue is like, how do these people like, you know, so they're not going to get the freedom, right?

761
00:47:53,534 --> 00:48:04,887
The self part of Bitcoin they not going to enjoy that part So like can they at least get some upside from the debasement you know against debasement against everything else

762
00:48:04,887 --> 00:48:15,347
So, you know, they will find sort of allegories to the Bitcoin, you know, play, right?

763
00:48:15,347 --> 00:48:30,187
If their pensions are exposed to, you know, like partially to Bitcoin through a Bitcoin treasuries company, like at least their pensions don't go to zero.

764
00:48:31,447 --> 00:48:38,507
Right. I mean, like, you know, like I think like because the doomerist brain is very lazy.

765
00:48:39,027 --> 00:48:41,607
Right. Like they are not trying to find solutions.

766
00:48:41,607 --> 00:48:43,307
They're just pointing out problems. Right.

767
00:48:43,307 --> 00:48:50,867
So it's very easy to go to, oh my God, civil war and 60102 and this and that and everybody shooting each other.

768
00:48:51,027 --> 00:48:53,307
But it's not how the world works, right?

769
00:48:53,367 --> 00:48:55,267
Like there is a lot of inertia.

770
00:48:55,807 --> 00:49:04,987
Even during big wars, I mean like the majority of the populations in the countries that were not being the ones being bombed, like it was life as usual, you know?

771
00:49:04,987 --> 00:49:14,947
and so you know if i i think we're gonna end up unless we have like some crazy black swans that

772
00:49:14,947 --> 00:49:20,327
god knows what happens right but you know i i think what we have is like some sort of like a

773
00:49:20,327 --> 00:49:28,187
a peaceful slow uh uh like monetary replacement you know it's the great replacement

774
00:49:28,187 --> 00:49:33,727
you got to be careful with that one i know i don't know if that gets you in trouble anymore

775
00:49:33,727 --> 00:49:38,707
on the internet um but youtube will add a flag to this later that's a great replacement yeah you

776
00:49:38,707 --> 00:49:44,347
can you can beep it for youtube theory that's right no beep it for uh beep it for youtube i don't care

777
00:49:44,347 --> 00:49:52,747
the the but the point is you know like i i think you know it's in everybody's interest to have

778
00:49:52,747 --> 00:50:00,067
the majority of the world at peace right because even if you profit from war right like even if

779
00:50:00,067 --> 00:50:04,187
you're like a source type, right? And you're like, you know, like, fuck yeah, like, let's

780
00:50:04,187 --> 00:50:10,207
rate you on the fuck out of the other country, right? Even if you profit from oil, it's like

781
00:50:10,207 --> 00:50:15,527
war over there. You still don't want war where you live. You know, you still want peace where

782
00:50:15,527 --> 00:50:24,487
you live. So it's in everybody's interest to sort of like change the wheel of this car

783
00:50:24,487 --> 00:50:26,907
while it's still driving, right?

784
00:50:27,087 --> 00:50:28,567
It's going to be tricky.

785
00:50:29,387 --> 00:50:33,327
But, you know, it's already happening

786
00:50:33,327 --> 00:50:34,587
when you think about it, right?

787
00:50:34,667 --> 00:50:39,267
Like, you know, people don't save in dollars anymore.

788
00:50:39,567 --> 00:50:44,787
They save in dollar-denominated stocks, right?

789
00:50:44,867 --> 00:50:47,167
Like people's savings are in stocks

790
00:50:47,167 --> 00:50:50,847
or they are in commodities, right?

791
00:50:51,447 --> 00:50:56,647
So like we've already like demonetized the dollar in that sense, right?

792
00:50:56,767 --> 00:51:00,087
Like it's just that we still need a unit of account

793
00:51:00,087 --> 00:51:03,787
and that's what the military comes in, right?

794
00:51:03,787 --> 00:51:07,187
Like when Americans say, you know, my taxes, you know,

795
00:51:07,247 --> 00:51:09,147
like what does the military do?

796
00:51:09,287 --> 00:51:11,667
Well, they make sure you have the unit of account.

797
00:51:12,047 --> 00:51:16,367
It's worth a lot and it costs a lot of money to maintain the unit of account.

798
00:51:16,847 --> 00:51:17,887
You know, is that a good thing?

799
00:51:18,287 --> 00:51:19,027
Probably not.

800
00:51:19,087 --> 00:51:19,767
It's not great.

801
00:51:19,767 --> 00:51:26,647
but that's why you can buy a tv for cheap deliver the same day from amazon in your own currency right

802
00:51:26,647 --> 00:51:33,247
um it is incredible same day amazon delivery just never ceases to blow my mind you can't have amazon

803
00:51:33,247 --> 00:51:39,247
same day for cheap without the army like it doesn't work like that right like that wealth would have

804
00:51:39,247 --> 00:51:48,027
been more distributed uh or or it would have shifted somewhere else um so anyways um the point

805
00:51:48,027 --> 00:51:51,227
is like, you know, the treasury companies,

806
00:51:51,467 --> 00:51:54,247
you know, like they're just a backdoor into the system.

807
00:51:54,487 --> 00:51:55,767
You know, it really is.

808
00:51:55,787 --> 00:51:58,547
It's like we are infecting the financial system.

809
00:51:58,607 --> 00:52:00,287
It's not the way around, right?

810
00:52:00,287 --> 00:52:02,207
Like you can still hold your Bitcoin.

811
00:52:02,367 --> 00:52:04,147
Like nobody's preventing you from doing that.

812
00:52:04,227 --> 00:52:06,247
I literally make products for us to do that, right?

813
00:52:06,307 --> 00:52:08,927
Like, I mean, it doesn't get more caveman than a cold card.

814
00:52:10,227 --> 00:52:11,507
But like, you know,

815
00:52:11,507 --> 00:52:14,487
and that's why I'm at the two sides of this spectrum.

816
00:52:14,747 --> 00:52:17,947
It's like, you know, like I think we need to financialize

817
00:52:17,947 --> 00:52:20,487
and backdoor into the system

818
00:52:20,487 --> 00:52:23,727
so that we don't have like fucking civil wars, right?

819
00:52:23,727 --> 00:52:26,327
So that everybody enjoys the benefit of number go up,

820
00:52:26,667 --> 00:52:29,947
even if they don't own Bitcoin, right?

821
00:52:30,847 --> 00:52:33,107
And on the other side, we can have our freedom

822
00:52:33,107 --> 00:52:35,347
and be cavemen, you know,

823
00:52:35,407 --> 00:52:37,747
like they don't have to participate in the system

824
00:52:37,747 --> 00:52:38,527
in a certain way.

825
00:52:39,307 --> 00:52:42,887
I think that's a much healthier way to go about it.

826
00:52:42,907 --> 00:52:44,087
And it's clearly playing out.

827
00:52:44,327 --> 00:52:46,687
So, you know, I hope I'm not wrong

828
00:52:46,687 --> 00:52:47,907
that things don't change.

829
00:52:49,007 --> 00:52:52,127
I mean, things could undoubtedly get very messy

830
00:52:52,127 --> 00:52:52,987
and I think will.

831
00:52:53,447 --> 00:52:54,687
I don't think it's necessarily,

832
00:52:54,867 --> 00:52:56,287
I mean, if you subscribe to the fourth,

833
00:52:56,527 --> 00:52:58,107
you know, general fourth turning theory,

834
00:52:58,187 --> 00:53:00,827
like we're undoubtedly in the midst of one.

835
00:53:01,327 --> 00:53:02,807
There's a lot of other cycles

836
00:53:02,807 --> 00:53:05,267
that appear to be converging right now as well,

837
00:53:06,027 --> 00:53:08,007
whether societal, economic or otherwise.

838
00:53:08,987 --> 00:53:12,447
Things could and probably will get extremely messy,

839
00:53:12,447 --> 00:53:15,847
but we have these incredible tailwinds

840
00:53:15,847 --> 00:53:17,587
that we've never had before, which are Bitcoin.

841
00:53:17,827 --> 00:53:20,467
And I think AI is an important one to mention as well.

842
00:53:20,827 --> 00:53:22,807
Like you've got deflationary money

843
00:53:22,807 --> 00:53:25,147
and probably the most deflationary technology

844
00:53:25,147 --> 00:53:28,947
to exist thus far in terms of AI.

845
00:53:29,987 --> 00:53:31,447
And it's going to be really interesting

846
00:53:31,447 --> 00:53:32,627
to see how that plays out

847
00:53:32,627 --> 00:53:34,207
because the fiat world doesn't work

848
00:53:34,207 --> 00:53:36,687
when everything gets cheaper forever.

849
00:53:36,687 --> 00:53:38,687
Like it needs things to get more expensive forever.

850
00:53:38,907 --> 00:53:40,007
It's kind of like part of it.

851
00:53:40,107 --> 00:53:41,827
Flat screen TVs just happen to be able

852
00:53:41,827 --> 00:53:44,767
to outpace inflation and continue to deflate,

853
00:53:44,767 --> 00:53:50,167
which is you know incredible um for us as a consumer like that's the the beauty of the pseudo

854
00:53:50,167 --> 00:53:53,887
free market that we have right is that we can keep getting certain things i mean it's just the

855
00:53:53,887 --> 00:54:00,927
marginal cost of production of most things go go to you know not zero but it goes to you know as low

856
00:54:00,927 --> 00:54:06,767
as as you can right like and and as we come up with solutions to get around scarcities

857
00:54:06,767 --> 00:54:13,587
right like it gets even cheaper so you know like you have materials that were scarce and no longer

858
00:54:13,587 --> 00:54:15,647
scarce. You know, we're going to get

859
00:54:15,647 --> 00:54:17,527
gold is going to have this day too.

860
00:54:17,827 --> 00:54:19,627
You know, we're going to get to a point where gold is no

861
00:54:19,627 --> 00:54:20,347
longer scarce.

862
00:54:22,387 --> 00:54:23,567
You know, like they keep

863
00:54:23,567 --> 00:54:25,427
on finding more gold and

864
00:54:25,427 --> 00:54:27,347
you know, eventually, you know, it's worth

865
00:54:27,347 --> 00:54:29,167
minus the mass. You know, it's like

866
00:54:29,167 --> 00:54:31,547
but you know, like a lot of these things

867
00:54:31,547 --> 00:54:33,567
have these problems because they have utility

868
00:54:33,567 --> 00:54:34,027
value.

869
00:54:35,447 --> 00:54:37,767
You know, utility value is not a good thing.

870
00:54:38,467 --> 00:54:39,747
You know, it's a terrible thing

871
00:54:39,747 --> 00:54:41,247
because it creates a market

872
00:54:41,247 --> 00:54:43,847
for that product to be sold.

873
00:54:44,707 --> 00:54:48,307
When Bitcoin, the only $2 value for Bitcoin is holding it

874
00:54:48,307 --> 00:54:51,767
and exchanging it, but there is nothing else.

875
00:54:53,747 --> 00:54:56,947
Anyways, we're all going to be fine.

876
00:54:59,447 --> 00:55:03,367
I always appreciate having a conversation with you, NBK,

877
00:55:03,487 --> 00:55:05,607
is like going outside and touching grass a little bit.

878
00:55:05,667 --> 00:55:07,087
It's always very calming.

879
00:55:07,507 --> 00:55:10,827
I do want to talk about stuff that you guys are building right now

880
00:55:10,827 --> 00:55:14,067
because I know you have your hands in a lot of different pots.

881
00:55:14,127 --> 00:55:16,627
You want to talk a little bit maybe on the hardware side first,

882
00:55:16,707 --> 00:55:19,007
just kind of what you guys have released recently,

883
00:55:19,187 --> 00:55:20,427
what you're cooking up for the future?

884
00:55:22,087 --> 00:55:25,307
So, like, for people that don't know, we make the cold card, right?

885
00:55:25,307 --> 00:55:29,627
Like the mimetic quintessential Bitcoin hardware wallet

886
00:55:29,627 --> 00:55:30,887
that everybody uses.

887
00:55:32,747 --> 00:55:37,467
I think the main thing that, like, I've noticed

888
00:55:37,467 --> 00:55:39,727
in this last sort of, like, few years

889
00:55:39,727 --> 00:55:47,727
is that it's very clear to me that there is interesting competition out there,

890
00:55:47,847 --> 00:55:50,487
but it's very clear that people don't use Bitcoin.

891
00:55:51,627 --> 00:55:53,047
The majority of the products out there,

892
00:55:53,147 --> 00:55:55,027
it's just from people that don't use Bitcoin.

893
00:55:57,147 --> 00:55:59,847
So I don't see things coming out.

894
00:55:59,847 --> 00:56:02,987
And we just keep on iterating.

895
00:56:03,127 --> 00:56:07,127
I was like, how can we make Bitcoin more usable,

896
00:56:07,127 --> 00:56:10,607
operationally speaking to Bitcoiners

897
00:56:10,607 --> 00:56:14,167
trying to send Bay's layer money safely, securely

898
00:56:14,167 --> 00:56:15,627
and pass on to their children, right?

899
00:56:17,127 --> 00:56:19,287
And I think that's really where

900
00:56:19,287 --> 00:56:21,627
like this last feature was born from.

901
00:56:21,867 --> 00:56:25,427
So like, so, you know, you have your harder wallet.

902
00:56:25,707 --> 00:56:27,067
Everybody has one, right?

903
00:56:27,407 --> 00:56:29,847
And, you know, including your cold card,

904
00:56:30,147 --> 00:56:34,567
you go and, you know, you can send your whole amount out, right?

905
00:56:34,667 --> 00:56:37,027
And that's not a good thing, right?

906
00:56:37,127 --> 00:56:44,147
Because, you know, even though you give it trick pins to break it, to work it out, and, you know, you can delay login and whatever.

907
00:56:44,147 --> 00:56:49,687
At the end of the day, that device is allowing you to just send it all.

908
00:56:50,687 --> 00:56:52,447
And that could be to a bad person, right?

909
00:56:52,747 --> 00:56:53,507
Under duress.

910
00:56:54,527 --> 00:57:01,607
So what we did recently was to add spending conditions to an extra key for multisig.

911
00:57:02,287 --> 00:57:05,927
But we saw the demand, we saw sort of like the light there

912
00:57:05,927 --> 00:57:08,827
where what people really want is the hardware wallet to say,

913
00:57:08,947 --> 00:57:10,267
no, you can't spend more than this.

914
00:57:11,227 --> 00:57:14,767
Or you can't send to an address that is not on this list.

915
00:57:15,927 --> 00:57:16,087
Right?

916
00:57:16,087 --> 00:57:22,087
And so what we did is we created a system for spending policies

917
00:57:22,087 --> 00:57:24,027
inside the hardware wallet itself.

918
00:57:24,947 --> 00:57:29,347
So the hardware wallet can prevent you from doing things

919
00:57:29,347 --> 00:57:32,927
that you don't want yourself to do in certain situations, right?

920
00:57:33,207 --> 00:57:37,207
So you can set up your code card to not let you spend more than one Bitcoin

921
00:57:37,207 --> 00:57:41,027
per transaction.

922
00:57:41,447 --> 00:57:45,007
You can make the code card not let you spend

923
00:57:45,007 --> 00:57:48,327
without a two-factor authentication from a different device.

924
00:57:50,047 --> 00:57:54,007
You know, not let you...

925
00:57:54,007 --> 00:57:57,727
So there's velocity, magnitude, so like not spend more

926
00:57:57,727 --> 00:57:59,207
than a certain amount, period.

927
00:57:59,347 --> 00:58:01,147
and also whitelists.

928
00:58:01,247 --> 00:58:02,387
Whitelists are very important

929
00:58:02,387 --> 00:58:05,687
because you can have a operational code card

930
00:58:05,687 --> 00:58:07,787
that's maybe like your warmer device

931
00:58:07,787 --> 00:58:08,687
that sits on your desk

932
00:58:08,687 --> 00:58:10,227
for you to operate your business

933
00:58:10,227 --> 00:58:12,127
or if you're a trader

934
00:58:12,127 --> 00:58:15,727
and then you can have only the whitelists

935
00:58:15,727 --> 00:58:17,447
that go to maybe your other code card

936
00:58:17,447 --> 00:58:18,727
that's deep under a mountain

937
00:58:18,727 --> 00:58:21,027
or go to your exchange account,

938
00:58:22,067 --> 00:58:22,787
you know, things like that.

939
00:58:22,827 --> 00:58:25,207
So you can have a list of whitelisted addresses

940
00:58:25,207 --> 00:58:29,027
and, you know, like this helps people travel

941
00:58:29,027 --> 00:58:30,927
as well, so you can have a traveling cold

942
00:58:30,927 --> 00:58:33,027
card now. It has spending

943
00:58:33,027 --> 00:58:34,407
limits, so

944
00:58:34,407 --> 00:58:36,747
you can't be forced to

945
00:58:36,747 --> 00:58:38,327
do something you don't want to do.

946
00:58:40,147 --> 00:58:40,947
And it's more like

947
00:58:40,947 --> 00:58:42,847
it really is within those, and can we do

948
00:58:42,847 --> 00:58:43,807
this without an app?

949
00:58:45,087 --> 00:58:46,827
So that we don't have to depend on

950
00:58:46,827 --> 00:58:48,987
Apple, we don't have to depend on more software stacks.

951
00:58:49,087 --> 00:58:50,327
Can we do this without a server?

952
00:58:50,767 --> 00:58:53,027
So that you don't have to talk to anyone or anything.

953
00:58:53,147 --> 00:58:54,547
You don't have to talk to CoinKate.

954
00:58:56,027 --> 00:58:56,387
And

955
00:58:56,387 --> 00:58:58,887
so we spent a lot of time making that

956
00:58:58,887 --> 00:59:01,067
work with just a device.

957
00:59:02,527 --> 00:59:03,227
There's no

958
00:59:03,227 --> 00:59:05,127
counterparties on that spending

959
00:59:05,127 --> 00:59:05,587
policy.

960
00:59:07,027 --> 00:59:09,107
I think that's pretty incredible.

961
00:59:09,267 --> 00:59:11,067
I mean, so I'd also like

962
00:59:11,067 --> 00:59:12,907
to know just your opinion, I mean, on

963
00:59:12,907 --> 00:59:15,147
multi-sig kind of broadly, because obviously

964
00:59:15,147 --> 00:59:17,067
you guys do not, still to this

965
00:59:17,067 --> 00:59:18,567
day, do not have any sort of,

966
00:59:18,747 --> 00:59:21,247
you don't do any sort of software, like you don't provide

967
00:59:21,247 --> 00:59:22,627
the client

968
00:59:22,627 --> 00:59:24,967
to use as the software interface.

969
00:59:25,527 --> 00:59:26,447
That's deliberate.

970
00:59:26,447 --> 00:59:31,407
big things. Yeah. Yeah. It's been like very purposeful on your side. Cold card is obviously

971
00:59:31,407 --> 00:59:36,987
used by a ton of people. It's used in a lot of multi-sig setups as well, especially for people

972
00:59:36,987 --> 00:59:41,607
that want some sort of a vendor diversity in terms of, you know, they maybe they want a couple other

973
00:59:41,607 --> 00:59:44,847
brands and they want a cold card in there as well. What are your thoughts? Cause obviously

974
00:59:44,847 --> 00:59:48,707
some of these things that you're talking about in terms of these features that you've enabled

975
00:59:48,707 --> 00:59:53,827
could, they're almost their own form of multi-sig, but already just built in to the,

976
00:59:53,827 --> 00:59:59,547
to the actual device itself do you think that like what what do you think is the appropriate

977
00:59:59,547 --> 01:00:03,647
setup for most people i'm not asking you to like say this is what everyone should do but like for

978
01:00:03,647 --> 01:00:07,887
most people what do you think is the best way to go about that this is funny so like we actually

979
01:00:07,887 --> 01:00:14,287
have the most comprehensive multi-sig support on the market every possible multi-sig craziness

980
01:00:14,287 --> 01:00:20,107
fully supported um which is funny so and we actually have spending policies for multi-sig as

981
01:00:20,107 --> 01:00:27,807
well. So I think the reality is this, like we need optionality, right? Because different people

982
01:00:27,807 --> 01:00:34,347
have different needs and also people have different needs themselves. So like, you know, the same way

983
01:00:34,347 --> 01:00:39,167
you have like a spending wallet, you have a travel wallet, you have a checking account, you have a

984
01:00:39,167 --> 01:00:45,347
savings account, you have a trading account, you have, you know, like a gold bar account. Do you

985
01:00:45,347 --> 01:00:50,927
know what i mean it's like when you think about that like you know okay so how can we provide

986
01:00:50,927 --> 01:00:57,507
that functionality to people with through our devices because we have those needs as users like

987
01:00:57,507 --> 01:01:04,787
like pretty much like almost all features that cold card have are a need of of our own we're

988
01:01:04,787 --> 01:01:09,747
very selfish with that we make the products for ourselves and then hopefully people get used to

989
01:01:09,747 --> 01:01:10,667
of it as well.

990
01:01:11,247 --> 01:01:11,687
So,

991
01:01:11,847 --> 01:01:13,547
but you are a Bitcoin business,

992
01:01:13,547 --> 01:01:15,047
like you operate Bitcoin businesses,

993
01:01:15,047 --> 01:01:15,547
like you,

994
01:01:15,627 --> 01:01:15,987
you know,

995
01:01:16,107 --> 01:01:19,267
Bitcoin businesses and users need because you operate one and you are the

996
01:01:19,267 --> 01:01:19,487
other.

997
01:01:19,487 --> 01:01:19,947
Like that,

998
01:01:20,067 --> 01:01:20,307
you know,

999
01:01:20,307 --> 01:01:20,907
makes sense.

1000
01:01:21,407 --> 01:01:21,847
Exactly.

1001
01:01:22,247 --> 01:01:22,647
So,

1002
01:01:23,087 --> 01:01:23,907
so,

1003
01:01:24,167 --> 01:01:24,547
you know,

1004
01:01:24,607 --> 01:01:27,127
I think like the great majority of people,

1005
01:01:27,307 --> 01:01:28,047
you know,

1006
01:01:28,047 --> 01:01:28,827
outside of Twitter,

1007
01:01:29,147 --> 01:01:30,007
you know,

1008
01:01:30,007 --> 01:01:31,547
outside of the spotlight,

1009
01:01:32,367 --> 01:01:35,207
they're more than well served by single SIG,

1010
01:01:36,667 --> 01:01:36,987
you know,

1011
01:01:37,067 --> 01:01:38,747
playing vanilla single SIG,

1012
01:01:38,747 --> 01:01:45,187
Like most people can keep a metal plate secure and secret.

1013
01:01:45,987 --> 01:01:46,127
Okay.

1014
01:01:47,607 --> 01:01:50,927
You know, would you put your whole life savings on it?

1015
01:01:50,987 --> 01:01:51,947
Probably not, right?

1016
01:01:52,007 --> 01:01:55,567
Like that's where you start sort of doing a little bit of game theory on your own life, right?

1017
01:01:55,567 --> 01:02:00,287
Like how much, it's the same as having a gold bar, you know, when you're safe in your house or something, right?

1018
01:02:00,287 --> 01:02:02,347
Like how much gold did you have in your house?

1019
01:02:03,447 --> 01:02:03,607
Right?

1020
01:02:03,667 --> 01:02:04,507
Like you can answer those questions.

1021
01:02:04,507 --> 01:02:05,687
Not all of your gold, hopefully.

1022
01:02:05,967 --> 01:02:06,667
Exactly, right?

1023
01:02:06,667 --> 01:02:09,287
So think about single SIG in that sense, right?

1024
01:02:09,347 --> 01:02:13,787
Like how much would you have on hand or accessible to you, right?

1025
01:02:14,467 --> 01:02:15,127
Same with cash.

1026
01:02:15,147 --> 01:02:15,867
How much would you have?

1027
01:02:15,927 --> 01:02:17,007
Because cash burns, right?

1028
01:02:17,067 --> 01:02:18,267
Like it gets tricky.

1029
01:02:19,067 --> 01:02:22,567
So now we can add, say, like a passphrase.

1030
01:02:22,807 --> 01:02:26,247
Passphrase with single SIG is like remarkable, right?

1031
01:02:26,307 --> 01:02:27,847
Now it's plausibly deniable.

1032
01:02:28,107 --> 01:02:29,367
It's super simple.

1033
01:02:30,347 --> 01:02:32,927
Pretty much every wallet supports it.

1034
01:02:32,927 --> 01:02:39,307
you know like if somebody captures their seed plate it's okay it's not in the world because

1035
01:02:39,307 --> 01:02:42,907
they don't have the passphrase you know you can put the passphrase in a different location

1036
01:02:42,907 --> 01:02:48,507
it's very it's fairly simple for inheritance as well because it's just you know it's just

1037
01:02:48,507 --> 01:02:56,367
two little secrets for you to sort of pass on you know so like that goes a long way in terms of

1038
01:02:56,367 --> 01:02:59,827
like amount of money and people's circumstances, right?

1039
01:03:00,987 --> 01:03:05,927
Now, you know, like you live maybe in a more dangerous neighborhood, right?

1040
01:03:06,007 --> 01:03:09,847
Like, well, you know, now you have to start thinking a little bit more broadly on this,

1041
01:03:09,927 --> 01:03:10,107
right?

1042
01:03:10,107 --> 01:03:16,847
Like you need to think about like how, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, like a duress

1043
01:03:16,847 --> 01:03:20,607
could be a bigger sort of concern for you, right?

1044
01:03:20,627 --> 01:03:23,147
So you start thinking about what can you do around that?

1045
01:03:23,207 --> 01:03:24,147
Is it some trick pins?

1046
01:03:24,227 --> 01:03:25,087
Is it delay pin?

1047
01:03:25,087 --> 01:03:28,947
Is it like maybe multi-sig and you can't sign it alone in that place, right?

1048
01:03:29,947 --> 01:03:31,627
You know, now are you a business?

1049
01:03:31,867 --> 01:03:33,947
Well, businesses are different, different needs, right?

1050
01:03:33,987 --> 01:03:36,467
Like maybe you need multiple people to sign something.

1051
01:03:36,847 --> 01:03:39,107
You know, with the spending policies for multi-sig,

1052
01:03:39,187 --> 01:03:42,207
that was for business because, you know,

1053
01:03:42,267 --> 01:03:45,367
now you can have like same wallet, okay?

1054
01:03:45,907 --> 01:03:49,027
So one business partner can sign up to a certain amount.

1055
01:03:50,127 --> 01:03:52,747
You know, the other business partner can sign up to a certain amount,

1056
01:03:52,747 --> 01:03:54,487
but together they can sign everything.

1057
01:03:55,087 --> 01:03:57,867
you know, like how amazing is that, right?

1058
01:03:57,967 --> 01:04:00,187
It's like the nuclear codes where you've got to have two guys

1059
01:04:00,187 --> 01:04:01,087
each with their key base.

1060
01:04:01,207 --> 01:04:02,287
I mean, it's literally that, yeah.

1061
01:04:02,627 --> 01:04:04,627
Yes, and it's super useful.

1062
01:04:04,727 --> 01:04:05,747
And that's all device-based.

1063
01:04:05,867 --> 01:04:06,667
You don't need servers.

1064
01:04:06,807 --> 01:04:07,567
You don't need anything.

1065
01:04:07,747 --> 01:04:08,727
You don't need to pay a company.

1066
01:04:08,907 --> 01:04:10,847
You don't need to pay a subscription, nothing.

1067
01:04:11,207 --> 01:04:12,807
And you don't have to exist either.

1068
01:04:12,927 --> 01:04:14,687
Like it could be completely a non, right?

1069
01:04:14,687 --> 01:04:16,407
Because you don't have to, you know,

1070
01:04:16,487 --> 01:04:18,667
work with a collaborative multi-sig company,

1071
01:04:18,667 --> 01:04:19,867
which is not a bad thing either.

1072
01:04:20,067 --> 01:04:22,207
It really depends on what you need, right?

1073
01:04:22,207 --> 01:04:27,407
And we're very intense and reflective about these ideas.

1074
01:04:27,587 --> 01:04:33,327
How far can we take an embedded device in terms of operational security

1075
01:04:33,327 --> 01:04:39,627
and being operationally capable without needing a service or an app?

1076
01:04:39,707 --> 01:04:43,507
Because service are attack surface and a privacy attack surface

1077
01:04:43,507 --> 01:04:47,667
and apps are an attack surface because now you have the same vendor

1078
01:04:47,667 --> 01:04:48,807
showing you the address.

1079
01:04:48,807 --> 01:04:56,067
so you know and that's sort of like that's that's the space we live in and and and i think we got to

1080
01:04:56,067 --> 01:05:04,047
a point now where it's you know it's it's hilariously simple to set up a cold card to

1081
01:05:04,047 --> 01:05:10,047
transact a cold card you know as much as people love to like you know say things are hard it's

1082
01:05:10,047 --> 01:05:14,747
you know things are hard because they're trying to sell you something else you know it's you know

1083
01:05:14,747 --> 01:05:22,307
we have plenty of examples of the grandma, right?

1084
01:05:22,387 --> 01:05:27,267
The Bitcoiners grandma that they taught how to use Bitcoin, right?

1085
01:05:27,347 --> 01:05:31,627
Like it's like that ephemeral grandma that, you know, probably doesn't exist.

1086
01:05:31,707 --> 01:05:34,967
But still, like there's a lot of those examples of people that managed to get that through.

1087
01:05:35,847 --> 01:05:38,047
And I think there is another part that's very important,

1088
01:05:38,047 --> 01:05:43,627
is that we don't compromise on the necessity for the person to understand what they're doing.

1089
01:05:43,627 --> 01:05:48,727
because you should not have Bitcoin

1090
01:05:48,727 --> 01:05:50,807
if you're not willing to understand

1091
01:05:50,807 --> 01:05:53,027
what you have now.

1092
01:05:53,627 --> 01:05:55,807
You should not have gold in your house

1093
01:05:55,807 --> 01:05:57,727
if you don't understand what gold is.

1094
01:05:59,387 --> 01:06:01,687
It is not safe

1095
01:06:01,687 --> 01:06:03,887
and you're going to get scammed.

1096
01:06:05,087 --> 01:06:06,527
For example, Ledger.

1097
01:06:06,527 --> 01:06:09,247
They do a very good job of security.

1098
01:06:10,407 --> 01:06:11,827
Some good people there,

1099
01:06:11,967 --> 01:06:13,007
very professional people.

1100
01:06:13,007 --> 01:06:14,907
They really try to make it very easy.

1101
01:06:15,107 --> 01:06:17,087
They have an app wallet that's very easy to use.

1102
01:06:18,407 --> 01:06:25,227
But the problem is you abstract so much of what's happening from the user

1103
01:06:25,227 --> 01:06:29,347
that then the user gets a DM from a scammer saying,

1104
01:06:29,487 --> 01:06:30,387
hey, give me your seed.

1105
01:06:30,487 --> 01:06:31,527
Okay, here's my seed.

1106
01:06:32,887 --> 01:06:34,207
I'm the support people.

1107
01:06:34,467 --> 01:06:35,887
Give me your seed and I'll help you, right?

1108
01:06:36,447 --> 01:06:38,647
Whenever I hear those stories, I'm like, how?

1109
01:06:38,827 --> 01:06:39,127
Why?

1110
01:06:39,307 --> 01:06:39,827
No, stop.

1111
01:06:39,827 --> 01:06:41,527
This is the majority of the people who lose Bitcoin.

1112
01:06:43,007 --> 01:06:49,327
You know, it's because, again, like they're not being forced to understand what they have.

1113
01:06:49,447 --> 01:06:55,327
Right. And part of our flow, even though it's simple, it requires people to have some agency.

1114
01:06:55,887 --> 01:06:59,567
Right. We believe that that's our responsibility.

1115
01:07:00,787 --> 01:07:09,607
And, you know, we I really like I really want to bang this point where it's that like if you're not willing to understand Bitcoin, go buy micro strategy.

1116
01:07:09,607 --> 01:07:18,887
You know, go buy, you know, go buy some ETF, go buy, you know, like shares in a company that has Bitcoin, go do something else.

1117
01:07:19,847 --> 01:07:25,947
You know, like Bitcoin is for people, like having UTXOs with a signing device.

1118
01:07:26,147 --> 01:07:31,887
Okay, it's for people who want to take responsibility over their money because it's a lot of responsibility.

1119
01:07:33,567 --> 01:07:37,047
Yeah, if you can't open a PDF, buy the Bitcoin ETF.

1120
01:07:37,047 --> 01:07:38,807
That's what I always say, you know.

1121
01:07:40,427 --> 01:07:41,007
That's funny.

1122
01:07:41,567 --> 01:07:43,427
Yeah, it's not bad.

1123
01:07:43,967 --> 01:07:45,127
I think that that's fair.

1124
01:07:45,207 --> 01:07:46,867
I think that may sound harsh to some people.

1125
01:07:47,247 --> 01:07:49,707
Like, no, come on, Bitcoin should be for everyone.

1126
01:07:49,887 --> 01:07:53,067
But I think this, I'm not the first

1127
01:07:53,067 --> 01:07:54,227
nor the last to make this distinction,

1128
01:07:54,347 --> 01:07:55,487
but Bitcoin's not for everyone.

1129
01:07:55,827 --> 01:07:59,047
It's for anyone who is willing to learn and do the work.

1130
01:07:59,407 --> 01:08:00,547
Because it is scary.

1131
01:08:00,547 --> 01:08:04,307
It is scary to have self-custody of your wealth.

1132
01:08:04,587 --> 01:08:05,787
We're not used to that.

1133
01:08:05,847 --> 01:08:08,267
Again, this is not a thing in the fiat system you can do.

1134
01:08:08,267 --> 01:08:12,127
you can't self custody digital dollars that you can't,

1135
01:08:12,227 --> 01:08:12,907
it's impossible.

1136
01:08:12,907 --> 01:08:17,887
You can self custody physical dollars and that has its own set of risks,

1137
01:08:18,007 --> 01:08:18,167
right?

1138
01:08:18,207 --> 01:08:20,207
You can self custody gold,

1139
01:08:20,327 --> 01:08:21,847
but most people don't.

1140
01:08:21,847 --> 01:08:23,547
And most people don't self custody their,

1141
01:08:23,667 --> 01:08:24,427
their digital dollars.

1142
01:08:24,527 --> 01:08:28,467
Most people have a custodian for any meaningful amount of wealth.

1143
01:08:28,687 --> 01:08:29,787
It's a weird thing.

1144
01:08:30,007 --> 01:08:33,467
It's a weird thing that we're doing in this Bitcoin space where you are the

1145
01:08:33,467 --> 01:08:33,587
one,

1146
01:08:33,647 --> 01:08:34,947
the buck stops with you.

1147
01:08:35,067 --> 01:08:36,447
And if you screw up,

1148
01:08:36,447 --> 01:08:41,107
there's no customer service to call. There's no, there's no, you know, oh, let me just reverse that

1149
01:08:41,107 --> 01:08:46,227
transaction for you. No, no, no. It's not how it works. Like you're done. And I think that for most

1150
01:08:46,227 --> 01:08:50,547
people that is scary, which is why to earlier point about, you know, hey, there's not going to

1151
01:08:50,547 --> 01:08:57,727
be enough UTXOs for everyone. Right. It's like, I don't know if there needs to be enough UTXOs for

1152
01:08:57,727 --> 01:09:03,947
everyone. Like it's because everyone doesn't want that responsibility to be honest with you. I don't

1153
01:09:03,947 --> 01:09:08,567
know if that sounds too harsh too, but I just, I don't think everyone wants that. I think most

1154
01:09:08,567 --> 01:09:16,347
people want to be able to call a custodian when something goes wrong. I think that that's because

1155
01:09:16,347 --> 01:09:20,667
that's what they've been trained to do. It's scary to take self custody. It requires taking

1156
01:09:20,667 --> 01:09:26,027
true ownership. Like you said earlier, Bitcoin is the only thing that you can own and you really own

1157
01:09:26,027 --> 01:09:30,907
it. If you like you, you have the keys, you have the coins. And if you screw that up, those coins

1158
01:09:30,907 --> 01:09:36,247
are gone and that's a understandably scary thing for i think probably the vast majority of the

1159
01:09:36,247 --> 01:09:48,547
population yeah it's um you know again it's it's uh you can't like it's like driving right you know

1160
01:09:48,547 --> 01:09:55,707
bitcoin bitcoin self-custody is literally like driving okay nobody learns in the highway

1161
01:09:55,707 --> 01:09:58,307
right people go in a parking lot

1162
01:09:58,307 --> 01:09:59,607
where the stakes are low

1163
01:09:59,607 --> 01:10:00,847
they learn how to drive

1164
01:10:00,847 --> 01:10:03,347
there's a lot of people who shouldn't be driving

1165
01:10:03,347 --> 01:10:05,767
you know

1166
01:10:05,767 --> 01:10:08,227
if you're driving your family

1167
01:10:08,227 --> 01:10:09,887
now you have your whole family in your car

1168
01:10:09,887 --> 01:10:11,587
their lives are at risk

1169
01:10:11,587 --> 01:10:13,227
your responsibility

1170
01:10:13,227 --> 01:10:15,807
right if you're driving a bus

1171
01:10:15,807 --> 01:10:16,967
it's a lot of responsibility

1172
01:10:16,967 --> 01:10:18,507
you're holding a lot of people's lives

1173
01:10:18,507 --> 01:10:20,827
right you know if you don't want to drive

1174
01:10:20,827 --> 01:10:21,807
you take the bus

1175
01:10:21,807 --> 01:10:23,987
you know

1176
01:10:24,687 --> 01:10:27,367
It's like, you know, if you don't want to have Bitcoin self-custody,

1177
01:10:27,467 --> 01:10:30,467
but take the bus, you know, go with somebody else.

1178
01:10:30,747 --> 01:10:33,727
Have a custodian holder for you, you know.

1179
01:10:34,627 --> 01:10:40,567
But I think it's important to also have honesty around the trade-offs, right?

1180
01:10:41,287 --> 01:10:42,767
There is a lot of solutions out there.

1181
01:10:42,847 --> 01:10:44,387
There's a very dishonest sort of way.

1182
01:10:44,447 --> 01:10:47,227
It's like, you know, you're safer here, you do this or whatever.

1183
01:10:47,327 --> 01:10:50,107
It's just no, like there is no honesty in the marketing

1184
01:10:50,107 --> 01:10:51,427
about what they're doing, right?

1185
01:10:51,847 --> 01:10:53,047
But, you know, we can't change that.

1186
01:10:53,047 --> 01:10:55,507
I mean, that's just the reality of the market, right?

1187
01:10:55,747 --> 01:10:58,267
And people need to get burned to understand sometimes

1188
01:10:58,267 --> 01:11:00,387
or people need to get sued or whatever, right?

1189
01:11:01,907 --> 01:11:04,427
So yeah, so we continue trying to educate people,

1190
01:11:04,927 --> 01:11:05,767
build the right tools.

1191
01:11:06,507 --> 01:11:10,287
I think we're fortunate that we are in a market

1192
01:11:10,287 --> 01:11:12,927
that there is a lot of people.

1193
01:11:13,187 --> 01:11:15,487
I mean, like, you know, the amount of devices to sell

1194
01:11:15,487 --> 01:11:18,607
is pretty insane, you know, and we can remain

1195
01:11:18,607 --> 01:11:21,927
sort of like a company with a fairly sort of

1196
01:11:21,927 --> 01:11:27,727
opinionated view of how self-custody should be done and still sell devices like that to me gives

1197
01:11:27,727 --> 01:11:32,687
me hope about bitcoin right like in terms of self-custody in that sense that like you know

1198
01:11:32,687 --> 01:11:40,587
if we can exist there is enough people yeah no that's it's fair i'm curious too will uh i think

1199
01:11:40,587 --> 01:11:46,827
a lot of people probably have even if they uh i mean i've probably heard about coin kite and cold

1200
01:11:46,827 --> 01:11:51,627
card but they've probably seen a block clock i've got to say that was that's such a i mean i've got

1201
01:11:51,627 --> 01:12:02,980
a couple of them a couple of the minis and then the micro minis or whatever the extra small ones because they just awesome Are you guys ever going to put out like another one

1202
01:12:03,060 --> 01:12:04,161
Is there any way to top that?

1203
01:12:04,201 --> 01:12:08,960
Because it's a beautiful piece of Bitcoin design at play there, right?

1204
01:12:09,001 --> 01:12:10,940
It's just, I don't know, it's satisfying.

1205
01:12:11,261 --> 01:12:12,020
It's nice to have.

1206
01:12:13,480 --> 01:12:16,221
Yeah, you know, again, there was a born about,

1207
01:12:16,221 --> 01:12:19,320
you know, because we wanted to see the block height.

1208
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:21,201
we wanted to see

1209
01:12:21,201 --> 01:12:23,940
seeing the block height around the house

1210
01:12:23,940 --> 01:12:25,541
is very

1211
01:12:25,541 --> 01:12:27,101
peaceful

1212
01:12:27,101 --> 01:12:29,621
it's a very satisfying thing

1213
01:12:29,621 --> 01:12:31,101
you know

1214
01:12:31,101 --> 01:12:33,121
people can be crying out there

1215
01:12:33,121 --> 01:12:35,060
the world can be this, life can be that

1216
01:12:35,060 --> 01:12:37,181
but it's like TikTok next block

1217
01:12:37,181 --> 01:12:38,860
there is another block

1218
01:12:38,860 --> 01:12:40,241
there's always another block

1219
01:12:40,241 --> 01:12:43,541
and I find that super soothing

1220
01:12:43,541 --> 01:12:44,201
and

1221
01:12:44,201 --> 01:12:47,181
so that's really one of the main reasons

1222
01:12:47,181 --> 01:12:48,081
why I made the device

1223
01:12:48,081 --> 01:12:51,081
and there was the old one.

1224
01:12:51,241 --> 01:12:52,520
I don't know if you've ever seen that one.

1225
01:12:52,721 --> 01:12:55,001
It has the digits that flip.

1226
01:12:56,420 --> 01:12:57,860
That was a long time ago.

1227
01:12:58,400 --> 01:12:59,400
You know, we'll probably,

1228
01:12:59,621 --> 01:13:03,101
like when we come up with the next idea

1229
01:13:03,101 --> 01:13:05,781
that it's not just a screen showing something,

1230
01:13:06,681 --> 01:13:09,141
you know, we'll probably make something.

1231
01:13:09,141 --> 01:13:11,980
I think the biggest barrier is just the idea

1232
01:13:11,980 --> 01:13:14,701
for the next one that is like an interesting technology

1233
01:13:14,701 --> 01:13:16,161
because it needs to have a soul, right?

1234
01:13:16,161 --> 01:13:18,221
It needs a little artistic flair.

1235
01:13:19,041 --> 01:13:22,081
The device was the current one, the Block Clock Mini,

1236
01:13:23,340 --> 01:13:24,661
the one that has the seven digits.

1237
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:29,480
I mean, it's very artistic in the sense that

1238
01:13:29,480 --> 01:13:31,840
from the hardware perspective, people don't do that.

1239
01:13:32,060 --> 01:13:35,440
You don't put seven displays on something.

1240
01:13:35,440 --> 01:13:36,661
You put one display.

1241
01:13:37,900 --> 01:13:41,840
So we were silly putting seven displays onto something.

1242
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:48,480
uh so we need we need the next idea of like the right technology for it eight displays 90 there

1243
01:13:48,480 --> 01:13:54,440
you go there you go i've got one block clock that i i had unplugged during a move a couple years ago

1244
01:13:54,440 --> 01:13:59,261
it was it's so it's just it's still at bitcoin at 28 000 and i'm just leaving that one i'm just

1245
01:13:59,261 --> 01:14:04,340
leaving that one as a reminder of of where we came from and that i should have bought more sats when

1246
01:14:04,340 --> 01:14:09,261
bitcoin was was down there it's a it's like it's a nice reminder but it's a little bit painful but

1247
01:14:09,261 --> 01:14:14,940
it's also like wow this can change fast in bitcoin you know yeah it's it's fun e-inks are

1248
01:14:14,940 --> 01:14:20,661
fun that way they don't that the image doesn't change once he powers off right so it remains

1249
01:14:20,661 --> 01:14:29,621
it's nice i want to ask you too about just okay not everybody can have utxos there i i do think

1250
01:14:29,621 --> 01:14:34,880
at a certain point everybody will use bitcoin in some way right but you know maybe without knowing

1251
01:14:34,880 --> 01:14:39,820
they're using Bitcoin. What are your thoughts? You mentioned Lightning earlier that you think

1252
01:14:39,820 --> 01:14:45,340
that really it's not necessarily feasible except for in the kind of larger hub and spoke custodial

1253
01:14:45,340 --> 01:14:49,161
model. I'm putting hub and spoke in your mouth there. You didn't actually say those words,

1254
01:14:49,161 --> 01:14:55,060
but I'm curious of just your larger thoughts on Lightning. Also on eCash and where you think

1255
01:14:55,060 --> 01:14:58,621
there's been obviously a lot of development happening there with what Cali is doing with

1256
01:14:58,621 --> 01:15:03,181
Cashew. Where are you at with that? Do you think that's something that becomes, I mean,

1257
01:15:03,181 --> 01:15:05,281
obviously there are trade-offs and everyone,

1258
01:15:05,541 --> 01:15:07,460
the developers themselves obviously acknowledge these.

1259
01:15:07,541 --> 01:15:07,641
Cal,

1260
01:15:07,661 --> 01:15:08,701
I'll be the first to tell you like,

1261
01:15:08,761 --> 01:15:08,880
look,

1262
01:15:08,900 --> 01:15:09,641
you can get rugged.

1263
01:15:11,020 --> 01:15:14,041
But do you think that those are tools that at least get people in the right

1264
01:15:14,041 --> 01:15:19,181
direction towards having something that does have much better privacy and a

1265
01:15:19,181 --> 01:15:22,641
very nice user experience compared to a lot of Fiat tools?

1266
01:15:23,201 --> 01:15:23,360
Yes,

1267
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:24,060
there are trade-offs,

1268
01:15:24,221 --> 01:15:25,420
but it's still again,

1269
01:15:25,420 --> 01:15:28,181
better than kind of the Fiat shit show that we have today.

1270
01:15:28,340 --> 01:15:29,681
I'd love to get your thoughts on those,

1271
01:15:29,721 --> 01:15:30,301
those layers.

1272
01:15:31,460 --> 01:15:31,581
Yeah,

1273
01:15:31,581 --> 01:15:31,920
absolutely.

1274
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:32,400
I mean,

1275
01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:32,661
like,

1276
01:15:33,181 --> 01:15:36,920
You know, like, again, Custodial Lightning works great.

1277
01:15:37,360 --> 01:15:45,440
It really does, you know, because it sort of, it makes up for the trade-offs in terms of practical usability, right?

1278
01:15:46,661 --> 01:15:53,601
And, you know, there is a lot of improvements on Custodial Lightning.

1279
01:15:53,601 --> 01:16:03,320
so it's less, it's more private and less in need of KYC.

1280
01:16:04,041 --> 01:16:07,121
So for example, LightSpark, is it LightSpark?

1281
01:16:07,281 --> 01:16:08,141
I think it's LightSpark.

1282
01:16:08,980 --> 01:16:12,161
You know, they do some state chain stuff, right?

1283
01:16:12,221 --> 01:16:14,060
So like they can get away with some things

1284
01:16:14,060 --> 01:16:16,320
and they make different trade-offs.

1285
01:16:17,020 --> 01:16:19,520
So, you know, they can offer that solution

1286
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:23,221
so that clients that use LightSpark as the backend

1287
01:16:23,221 --> 01:16:25,960
for their Lightning don't, for example, put into KYC users.

1288
01:16:27,221 --> 01:16:27,400
Right?

1289
01:16:27,641 --> 01:16:30,241
So you get a better privacy set there.

1290
01:16:30,741 --> 01:16:30,920
Right?

1291
01:16:31,020 --> 01:16:34,161
Like we need instant payments, right,

1292
01:16:34,221 --> 01:16:35,721
that are sort of Bitcoin backed.

1293
01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:36,601
Right?

1294
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:42,060
I think it's unfortunate that it took so long

1295
01:16:42,060 --> 01:16:45,400
for Lightning alternatives to start coming up.

1296
01:16:45,860 --> 01:16:46,121
Right?

1297
01:16:46,181 --> 01:16:47,820
Because we need competition on the market.

1298
01:16:47,940 --> 01:16:48,020
Right?

1299
01:16:48,060 --> 01:16:48,920
So now we have ARK.

1300
01:16:49,301 --> 01:16:50,840
ARK makes different trade-offs.

1301
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:54,001
I want to see how it plays out

1302
01:16:54,001 --> 01:16:55,880
but I'm very bullish on it

1303
01:16:55,880 --> 01:16:57,900
like I am bullish on Lightning

1304
01:16:57,900 --> 01:16:58,681
Custodio

1305
01:16:58,681 --> 01:17:01,081
you know there is

1306
01:17:01,081 --> 01:17:02,241
cashew is amazing

1307
01:17:02,241 --> 01:17:05,261
but cashew requires

1308
01:17:05,261 --> 01:17:07,301
Lightning for the settlement of the

1309
01:17:07,301 --> 01:17:07,601
mints

1310
01:17:07,601 --> 01:17:11,201
so I hope that

1311
01:17:11,201 --> 01:17:12,681
they turn on

1312
01:17:12,681 --> 01:17:14,141
like Bay's layer

1313
01:17:14,141 --> 01:17:16,621
cashew funding at some point

1314
01:17:16,621 --> 01:17:18,761
I know they don't because

1315
01:17:18,761 --> 01:17:21,701
a person could just unilaterally deposit

1316
01:17:21,701 --> 01:17:24,181
how much money they want on a mint

1317
01:17:24,181 --> 01:17:26,301
and then it could become a problem.

1318
01:17:27,940 --> 01:17:30,041
But, you know, there's nothing technically

1319
01:17:30,041 --> 01:17:33,380
preventing people from having

1320
01:17:33,380 --> 01:17:36,520
cashew bean base layer funded.

1321
01:17:38,141 --> 01:17:39,721
You know, and cashew in a way

1322
01:17:39,721 --> 01:17:41,980
kind of starts to behave almost like hub and spoke, right?

1323
01:17:41,980 --> 01:17:44,721
Because they have one fat channel,

1324
01:17:45,661 --> 01:17:47,340
you know, a few fat channels between mints

1325
01:17:47,340 --> 01:17:49,701
and other Lightning big players.

1326
01:17:50,020 --> 01:17:52,801
And then they have the spoke really is the cashew, right?

1327
01:17:53,181 --> 01:17:57,440
Which is like a Bitcoin unit of account,

1328
01:17:57,741 --> 01:17:59,541
Bitcoin denominated unit.

1329
01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:02,761
Cashew itself is not Bitcoin, right?

1330
01:18:02,820 --> 01:18:04,161
Like it's just a token.

1331
01:18:04,801 --> 01:18:06,440
It's an e-cash token.

1332
01:18:07,001 --> 01:18:07,400
Exactly.

1333
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:13,221
But Kali's brilliancy there was to make it

1334
01:18:13,221 --> 01:18:17,121
so that his implementation is integral

1335
01:18:17,121 --> 01:18:21,081
to being Bitcoin backed, right?

1336
01:18:21,161 --> 01:18:22,181
Like you can't use,

1337
01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:24,141
like Cashoo doesn't exist with shitcoins.

1338
01:18:24,460 --> 01:18:25,880
Like Cashoo exists

1339
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:27,621
because it's fully integrated

1340
01:18:27,621 --> 01:18:29,541
with the Bitcoin stack, right?

1341
01:18:30,001 --> 01:18:32,060
And it works great, you know,

1342
01:18:32,181 --> 01:18:33,940
but again, different trade-offs

1343
01:18:33,940 --> 01:18:35,261
and, you know, you could say

1344
01:18:35,261 --> 01:18:36,741
Cashoo is custodial, right?

1345
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:38,860
Because of the mint.

1346
01:18:39,661 --> 01:18:40,281
But, you know,

1347
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:41,541
but then you can have a million mints.

1348
01:18:41,541 --> 01:18:44,221
So even if 1,000 mints rug you,

1349
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:46,480
you know, the other, you know,

1350
01:18:46,480 --> 01:18:49,340
999,000

1351
01:18:49,340 --> 01:18:51,681
mints didn't.

1352
01:18:52,020 --> 01:18:53,560
So you're still fine, right?

1353
01:18:55,301 --> 01:18:56,281
So yeah, I mean,

1354
01:18:56,320 --> 01:18:57,920
there's a lot of stuff happening.

1355
01:18:58,741 --> 01:19:00,161
But the reality

1356
01:19:00,161 --> 01:19:02,340
is, like, people

1357
01:19:02,340 --> 01:19:04,121
outside of North America

1358
01:19:04,121 --> 01:19:04,820
are poor.

1359
01:19:05,980 --> 01:19:08,281
They can't, like, they don't, even in North America,

1360
01:19:08,420 --> 01:19:10,101
actually, like, people just don't have money,

1361
01:19:10,301 --> 01:19:12,060
right? And Bitcoin is terrible money

1362
01:19:12,060 --> 01:19:13,281
for people that don't have money.

1363
01:19:14,801 --> 01:19:16,060
That's going to ruffle some feathers

1364
01:19:16,060 --> 01:19:22,161
right there. And that's why credit cards are a very big market is because credit cards give people

1365
01:19:22,161 --> 01:19:30,121
30 days or a lot more with interest, right? But you have 30 days without interest, right? Like

1366
01:19:30,121 --> 01:19:37,801
it's very similar to payday loans, right? Like it gives people like that minimum operating period

1367
01:19:37,801 --> 01:19:44,121
before they get their next paycheck, right? And that's what people need. They don't use credit

1368
01:19:44,121 --> 01:19:46,081
cards just because it's easy to pay. It is now.

1369
01:19:46,161 --> 01:19:47,661
It didn't used to be this easy to pay

1370
01:19:47,661 --> 01:19:49,820
with credit cards, right?

1371
01:19:50,261 --> 01:19:52,081
It's very easy now because it became

1372
01:19:52,081 --> 01:19:54,161
the currency because nobody has money, so the two things

1373
01:19:54,161 --> 01:19:55,880
just merged, right? But

1374
01:19:55,880 --> 01:19:58,081
reality is that people need credit.

1375
01:19:58,681 --> 01:20:00,380
You know, you look at like all the checkouts

1376
01:20:00,380 --> 01:20:02,181
now have like, you know, a firm

1377
01:20:02,181 --> 01:20:04,181
or whatever, like pay with 12 days.

1378
01:20:04,860 --> 01:20:05,581
Yeah, but you know...

1379
01:20:05,581 --> 01:20:06,541
For your groceries.

1380
01:20:07,020 --> 01:20:09,900
But you know, this is new to Americans, but the rest of the world

1381
01:20:09,900 --> 01:20:11,880
functions like this. In Brazil, you have

1382
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:14,041
24 months without

1383
01:20:14,041 --> 01:20:20,940
interest on most things really yes they figure out the economics to make it happen it's not even

1384
01:20:20,940 --> 01:20:26,020
baked in it's not like there's a different price no no they just figure out because there is no

1385
01:20:26,020 --> 01:20:33,900
business if you don't offer terms it's interesting because like on the other side of the world like

1386
01:20:33,900 --> 01:20:40,360
east a lot of places in eastern europe like it is predominantly done on a you know a cash basis or

1387
01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:45,520
like debit, you know, debit card basis. Like there's obviously it's not solely the case,

1388
01:20:45,520 --> 01:20:50,681
but even just like the way that most people will buy, buy houses up until more recently

1389
01:20:50,681 --> 01:20:55,261
was more focusing on cash based. Like, but that's, there's different traumas,

1390
01:20:55,261 --> 01:20:59,661
like generational traumas there, right. That have caused them to want to do that and to have

1391
01:20:59,661 --> 01:21:04,681
less trust of centralized credit. So like, it's interesting. It's, but yeah, I think it is crazy

1392
01:21:04,681 --> 01:21:07,920
to me. Like the first time I walked into a store and saw that it was like, oh, you know, pay over

1393
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:11,960
four months with whatever, a firm or one of these other, one of these other companies, I was like,

1394
01:21:12,301 --> 01:21:16,661
oh my God, like this is, we're financing a sandwich here. This is insane.

1395
01:21:17,141 --> 01:21:20,560
It is, it is nuts, but you know, that's the reality that people have, right? I mean,

1396
01:21:21,380 --> 01:21:25,460
you know, when we fix the money and we fix the world, you know, like when we get to the other

1397
01:21:25,460 --> 01:21:30,940
side of this, then maybe, you know, people will have like better money and they won't need credit

1398
01:21:30,940 --> 01:21:36,101
and they're going to do better. Right. But, but realistically speaking, like you can't have a

1399
01:21:36,101 --> 01:21:39,280
modern consumerist society without credit.

1400
01:21:40,721 --> 01:21:42,420
Bitcoin does not solve that problem.

1401
01:21:42,860 --> 01:21:43,721
Not right now.

1402
01:21:43,801 --> 01:21:45,161
It solves on the other side of it.

1403
01:21:45,661 --> 01:21:47,400
But it's going to take a very long time.

1404
01:21:47,661 --> 01:21:51,320
And I think Bitcoiners can't wrap their head around it

1405
01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:53,880
because a lot of them are savers, just naturally savers,

1406
01:21:54,581 --> 01:21:56,860
people who have different values set

1407
01:21:56,860 --> 01:22:00,681
that often makes them have more money in the bank account.

1408
01:22:01,380 --> 01:22:03,581
So when they want to buy something, they have the cash.

1409
01:22:03,581 --> 01:22:08,440
right and that's not the reality of you know the great majority of the world's population

1410
01:22:08,440 --> 01:22:13,221
including of their own countries right like it's just you know you're gonna have to accept

1411
01:22:13,221 --> 01:22:18,780
ideally visa would be you know our amix would be running on a bitcoin standard and there will be

1412
01:22:18,780 --> 01:22:24,001
better companies and you know like you know they'll be able to lower the interest rates you know

1413
01:22:24,001 --> 01:22:30,280
there's like a whole other universe to look this from right um but you know it is it is what it is

1414
01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:36,841
I do like seeing the Bitcoin rewards credit cards out there because that's at least something where it's like, oh, sweet.

1415
01:22:36,841 --> 01:22:45,701
Because airline miles are literally just like the biggest scam ever in terms of like – it's like fiat to the extreme on top of base layer fiat.

1416
01:22:45,900 --> 01:22:47,360
It's just like such a scam.

1417
01:22:47,900 --> 01:22:51,761
And so at least spending credit and getting some sats on the side is nice.

1418
01:22:51,860 --> 01:22:53,581
I think we'll see a lot more of that happening.

1419
01:22:54,141 --> 01:22:57,081
And I think there's also – to your point, like people want credit.

1420
01:22:57,181 --> 01:22:57,980
People need loans.

1421
01:22:57,980 --> 01:23:02,560
you've seen a lot of companies now start offering these, you know,

1422
01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:05,060
offering Bitcoin loans. Like that's, that's great. You know,

1423
01:23:05,121 --> 01:23:08,480
strike has made a big deal about this. They're obviously not the only ones.

1424
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:09,741
There's a lot of them out there. Ledin,

1425
01:23:10,201 --> 01:23:14,400
Debify like a bunch of these other ones that offer, offer Bitcoin loans.

1426
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:16,601
And I think that that's like, that's a, that's a good thing.

1427
01:23:16,601 --> 01:23:19,480
People obviously want it. There's obviously a market demand for it.

1428
01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:22,121
Otherwise the products would not exist and people wouldn't use them.

1429
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:23,081
And so it's like, you know,

1430
01:23:23,480 --> 01:23:27,060
like us being on a Bitcoin standard doesn't mean that that credit,

1431
01:23:27,060 --> 01:23:29,440
is just non-existent.

1432
01:23:29,900 --> 01:23:31,181
I mean, like, you know, like,

1433
01:23:31,520 --> 01:23:33,201
we live, we exist in a world

1434
01:23:33,201 --> 01:23:37,301
where we're competing with cheap money, right?

1435
01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:41,860
So, you know, Bitcoin hurdle rate is amazing,

1436
01:23:42,001 --> 01:23:44,121
you know, like, we are, you know,

1437
01:23:44,301 --> 01:23:47,301
but we're not, like, doing a million X a year, right?

1438
01:23:47,661 --> 01:23:51,360
So we have to, you know, as a Gen Xer

1439
01:23:51,360 --> 01:23:55,480
or as a Gen Zer or whatever is now,

1440
01:23:55,480 --> 01:24:05,020
Like, you know, you're competing for that house, right, on a market that has, you know, monetized real estate.

1441
01:24:05,860 --> 01:24:09,241
Right. So like, and you have to have a house to live in.

1442
01:24:09,701 --> 01:24:15,181
Right. So like, depending on where you live, like renting may not be optional.

1443
01:24:15,780 --> 01:24:18,221
Right. So you have to either move or buy a house.

1444
01:24:18,621 --> 01:24:21,261
Right. And to buy the house, you don't want to sell the BTC.

1445
01:24:21,261 --> 01:24:28,020
and maybe you don't have access to bank credit.

1446
01:24:28,741 --> 01:24:32,841
So the next best thing out of that very long list

1447
01:24:32,841 --> 01:24:35,900
of the things you've tried, can't move,

1448
01:24:36,601 --> 01:24:39,480
don't want to sell the BTC, don't have bank credit.

1449
01:24:39,601 --> 01:24:41,400
Well, I'm going to take a loan against the BTC.

1450
01:24:41,900 --> 01:24:43,601
Does that incur risk? Absolutely.

1451
01:24:44,400 --> 01:24:47,380
But is that risk maybe better than not having the BTC?

1452
01:24:47,661 --> 01:24:47,940
Yeah.

1453
01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:49,960
And if you do that very conservatively,

1454
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:56,541
like you should be able to to be fine right especially the capital gains treatment like

1455
01:24:56,541 --> 01:25:01,460
if you need to sell bitcoin to buy something and you've got to pay the capital gains on top it's

1456
01:25:01,460 --> 01:25:04,841
like god you just literally just getting kicked in the balls by the government just repeatedly

1457
01:25:04,841 --> 01:25:11,801
well that's another reason why people buy bitcoin strategy stocks is because stocks are very

1458
01:25:11,801 --> 01:25:18,980
compatible with the fiat system you can walk into your bank and say loan me x amount of money versus

1459
01:25:18,980 --> 01:25:20,020
my trading book.

1460
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:24,101
You know, like your literal corner bank can do it, right?

1461
01:25:24,641 --> 01:25:29,101
You know, and they're going to offer you better interest rates than any Bitcoin collateral

1462
01:25:29,101 --> 01:25:32,041
company would, right?

1463
01:25:32,161 --> 01:25:34,121
It's just because you're part of the system, right?

1464
01:25:34,181 --> 01:25:39,301
Bitcoin is not compatible with the system yet, but you will be, you know, once, you

1465
01:25:39,301 --> 01:25:44,001
know, your fucking Mary Lynch offers you Bitcoin backed loans.

1466
01:25:44,001 --> 01:25:45,900
I'm not saying you should put your Bitcoin there.

1467
01:25:46,001 --> 01:25:48,601
You definitely shouldn't because those assholes are going to take it somehow.

1468
01:25:48,980 --> 01:25:51,900
But they're going to create an environment where, you know,

1469
01:25:52,001 --> 01:25:56,841
Landon or Strike are going to have even better interest rates to give to you

1470
01:25:56,841 --> 01:25:59,520
because Merrill Lynch is their new competition now.

1471
01:26:00,820 --> 01:26:02,940
And we're seeing Bitcoin insurance now too,

1472
01:26:03,201 --> 01:26:06,060
which is, I think, pretty cool to see.

1473
01:26:06,641 --> 01:26:07,480
Like, it's fantastic.

1474
01:26:07,621 --> 01:26:11,041
Like, people, these are, again, products that the market wants.

1475
01:26:11,400 --> 01:26:13,101
And there are now Bitcoin companies.

1476
01:26:13,480 --> 01:26:16,641
And that's the nice thing too, is like these companies that are existing right now,

1477
01:26:16,641 --> 01:26:18,780
either providing these loans, providing insurance, whatever they are,

1478
01:26:18,980 --> 01:26:23,460
they're not trad fi companies that are then pivoting to this.

1479
01:26:23,501 --> 01:26:23,920
They're the,

1480
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:28,221
they're Bitcoin companies that are the first movers in this space and are

1481
01:26:28,221 --> 01:26:29,301
there before the,

1482
01:26:29,301 --> 01:26:32,161
the JP Morgan's and the city banks and the Merrill Lynch's and everything

1483
01:26:32,161 --> 01:26:32,440
else.

1484
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:34,501
And ultimately I think that that's a great thing.

1485
01:26:34,501 --> 01:26:35,101
Like that's,

1486
01:26:35,201 --> 01:26:35,420
you know,

1487
01:26:35,420 --> 01:26:39,380
that ultimately means that it's those companies are necessarily going to be

1488
01:26:39,380 --> 01:26:42,960
more mission aligned with the average Bitcoiner than Jamie diamonds,

1489
01:26:43,161 --> 01:26:43,301
you know,

1490
01:26:43,341 --> 01:26:43,920
JP Morgan.

1491
01:26:44,121 --> 01:26:44,801
Like that's exactly,

1492
01:26:44,940 --> 01:26:45,661
that's a no brainer.

1493
01:26:46,081 --> 01:26:46,400
Yeah.

1494
01:26:46,701 --> 01:26:47,121
I mean,

1495
01:26:47,141 --> 01:26:47,661
it really is.

1496
01:26:47,780 --> 01:26:48,001
That's him.

1497
01:26:48,001 --> 01:26:50,641
And we also can cross borders now, right?

1498
01:26:50,661 --> 01:26:54,681
Like you can go hodohodoh and make a private loan contract

1499
01:26:54,681 --> 01:26:58,320
with some other crazy Bitcoin or in another part of the universe, right?

1500
01:26:58,741 --> 01:27:04,280
And like, you know, your chances of capture, privacy issues or whatever,

1501
01:27:04,501 --> 01:27:06,060
like greatly de-risked, right?

1502
01:27:07,081 --> 01:27:08,900
There is a lot of paths.

1503
01:27:08,900 --> 01:27:12,101
And the more we become compatible,

1504
01:27:13,101 --> 01:27:16,780
compatible is the wrong way, the wrong analogy.

1505
01:27:16,780 --> 01:27:23,420
The more we become interfaceable with the fiat system, the better it is for Bitcoin.

1506
01:27:24,241 --> 01:27:29,701
Like, you know, a politician can no longer wake up in the morning and go,

1507
01:27:29,841 --> 01:27:31,341
Bitcoin should be illegal in America.

1508
01:27:32,301 --> 01:27:33,161
They'll tank the market.

1509
01:27:34,141 --> 01:27:34,280
Right?

1510
01:27:34,341 --> 01:27:34,820
Like, why?

1511
01:27:35,081 --> 01:27:38,581
Like, if it was just a bunch of crazy Bitcoiners, like, they could totally do it.

1512
01:27:38,641 --> 01:27:39,641
And they'll get away with it.

1513
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:40,960
Right?

1514
01:27:41,001 --> 01:27:44,661
They can't do that when, like, you know, teachers' pensions depend on it.

1515
01:27:44,661 --> 01:27:50,301
like that's moat for us like you should be celebrating that you know it's just be celebrating

1516
01:27:50,301 --> 01:27:54,761
anybody like you may not like the person buying bitcoin but it's demand and demand makes your

1517
01:27:54,761 --> 01:28:03,420
bags more defended right um you know it's it's uh it's a hard pill to swallow to some people

1518
01:28:03,420 --> 01:28:08,980
it's but it's also this it's a symptom of success right it's a symptom of bitcoin

1519
01:28:08,980 --> 01:28:14,081
winning like this is what winning looks like this is what winning feels like it means your

1520
01:28:14,081 --> 01:28:18,761
your, you know, dire, your enemies stacking sats as well.

1521
01:28:18,761 --> 01:28:21,621
And it means the suits coming in and it means governments wanting to stack

1522
01:28:21,621 --> 01:28:21,820
this.

1523
01:28:21,841 --> 01:28:24,661
And it means more acceptance by the traditional finance system.

1524
01:28:24,661 --> 01:28:25,801
Like Bitcoin was losing.

1525
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:29,380
If Bitcoin sucked, no one would care, but it doesn't suck.

1526
01:28:29,440 --> 01:28:29,900
It's amazing.

1527
01:28:30,181 --> 01:28:30,960
Everybody wants it.

1528
01:28:31,020 --> 01:28:32,041
And that's why they do care.

1529
01:28:32,041 --> 01:28:34,761
It's like, that's a, it's, it's a symptom of that winning.

1530
01:28:35,261 --> 01:28:36,820
I do want to be conscious of your time.

1531
01:28:36,960 --> 01:28:38,761
And VK, I, if you've got time for one more,

1532
01:28:38,820 --> 01:28:41,041
I just kind of wanted to ask your thoughts broadly on like the,

1533
01:28:41,041 --> 01:28:45,320
the state of Noster right now and where you're at with it.

1534
01:28:45,380 --> 01:28:46,721
What's your vibe on it?

1535
01:28:47,020 --> 01:28:50,940
You've obviously been active on Noster for quite some time,

1536
01:28:51,201 --> 01:28:54,161
actively built some products around there as well.

1537
01:28:54,280 --> 01:28:54,960
But yeah, I don't know.

1538
01:28:55,020 --> 01:28:56,320
What's your vibe on it?

1539
01:28:57,261 --> 01:28:58,560
It's just like Bitcoin, right?

1540
01:28:58,560 --> 01:29:01,761
It's the adoption cycle is not linear.

1541
01:29:02,841 --> 01:29:04,501
So you have spikes.

1542
01:29:05,360 --> 01:29:07,320
There's a lot being built.

1543
01:29:08,761 --> 01:29:10,480
Primo is remarkable.

1544
01:29:10,480 --> 01:29:14,541
Like, I mean, like, you know, you look at something like that because you need an example, right?

1545
01:29:14,621 --> 01:29:15,860
And like, that's a great one.

1546
01:29:15,940 --> 01:29:18,860
It's like, look, it's like practically like Twitter.

1547
01:29:19,141 --> 01:29:20,380
Like, I mean, you can't tell the difference.

1548
01:29:20,501 --> 01:29:24,520
Half the times I can't tell the difference which app I'm in, right?

1549
01:29:24,560 --> 01:29:27,001
It's just that one app I can send sacks, the other one I can't.

1550
01:29:27,621 --> 01:29:31,741
You know, we're streaming right now on Noster, right?

1551
01:29:33,020 --> 01:29:36,960
I think it's a very necessary protocol.

1552
01:29:36,960 --> 01:29:41,560
We need a communication protocol that doesn't require permission,

1553
01:29:42,480 --> 01:29:45,841
a permanent identity system that doesn't require permission.

1554
01:29:47,701 --> 01:29:49,480
And, you know, people are building.

1555
01:29:49,780 --> 01:29:50,581
There's a lot coming.

1556
01:29:50,701 --> 01:29:51,880
There's white noise coming.

1557
01:29:52,001 --> 01:29:52,440
It's great.

1558
01:29:52,900 --> 01:29:55,360
It's a signal replacement that needs to exist.

1559
01:29:56,681 --> 01:29:59,560
There is, I think, Universe is another app,

1560
01:29:59,681 --> 01:30:01,661
kind of like Discord thing where it's like, you know,

1561
01:30:01,681 --> 01:30:02,501
people have communities.

1562
01:30:03,621 --> 01:30:04,940
There's a lot being built.

1563
01:30:04,940 --> 01:30:05,940
It takes time.

1564
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:11,801
You know, it's the adoption and the interest

1565
01:30:11,801 --> 01:30:14,501
and the volume of users using it,

1566
01:30:14,501 --> 01:30:17,360
the DAO is going to differ and it's going to come and go.

1567
01:30:18,261 --> 01:30:21,020
But, you know, right now,

1568
01:30:21,101 --> 01:30:23,820
Elon is a nice benevolent dictator with Twitter, right?

1569
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:26,581
Like, we don't know what it's going to be like in a few years, right?

1570
01:30:26,721 --> 01:30:28,440
Like, and you can't depend on that.

1571
01:30:28,641 --> 01:30:31,541
So I always say to people, like, at a bare minimum,

1572
01:30:31,661 --> 01:30:35,761
just have a backup, you know, build an account

1573
01:30:35,761 --> 01:30:38,261
where you have some interactions,

1574
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:40,001
you have a following, you have followers,

1575
01:30:42,161 --> 01:30:45,661
you have a place to go to in case you get canceled

1576
01:30:45,661 --> 01:30:46,741
because it could happen.

1577
01:30:48,601 --> 01:30:50,181
And then there's all the other stuff

1578
01:30:50,181 --> 01:30:51,721
that it's just not possible to do,

1579
01:30:51,841 --> 01:30:53,960
like zapping people on Twitter or whatever.

1580
01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:57,360
There's a lot that's going to start to get built and come out

1581
01:30:57,360 --> 01:31:00,641
that is just things that were not possible.

1582
01:31:00,741 --> 01:31:04,060
It's not just like we're just trying to run away from those places.

1583
01:31:04,060 --> 01:31:10,621
we're going to now build things that are like just not possible to build on those places right it's

1584
01:31:10,621 --> 01:31:16,121
just possible on nostre um i'm very bullish on it it's just you know it's going to take a long time

1585
01:31:16,121 --> 01:31:23,001
is there a particular uh whether it be some sort of new uh social engagement layer

1586
01:31:23,001 --> 01:31:28,280
a social networking layer or something else a particular advancement or product service

1587
01:31:28,280 --> 01:31:34,001
app whatever on nostre that you are most looking forward to personally i think white noise is uh

1588
01:31:34,001 --> 01:31:34,661
It's a big one.

1589
01:31:36,661 --> 01:31:42,460
Signal makes a lot of decisions that I can't, for the life of me, understand.

1590
01:31:42,860 --> 01:31:47,841
It took them years to not dock their phone number to people, for example.

1591
01:31:49,121 --> 01:31:50,980
They refuse to accept Bitcoin.

1592
01:31:51,121 --> 01:31:52,301
They want their shit going there.

1593
01:31:54,081 --> 01:31:57,880
They don't allow you to have more than one device, more than a phone.

1594
01:31:58,301 --> 01:32:00,181
Why is this related to my phone number?

1595
01:32:00,201 --> 01:32:01,060
I don't want a phone number.

1596
01:32:01,060 --> 01:32:03,541
Or, you know, if you want to de-spam,

1597
01:32:03,621 --> 01:32:05,081
because phone numbers help with de-spamming,

1598
01:32:05,601 --> 01:32:06,920
and I'm like, sure, check once,

1599
01:32:07,041 --> 01:32:09,020
but like, let me move on from phone numbers, right?

1600
01:32:11,020 --> 01:32:12,801
You know, there is a bunch of reasons

1601
01:32:12,801 --> 01:32:14,940
that like it must be replaced.

1602
01:32:15,020 --> 01:32:16,980
You can't have like, you know,

1603
01:32:17,060 --> 01:32:20,121
like chats are a great way of dealing with servers,

1604
01:32:20,681 --> 01:32:22,060
like as a server interface.

1605
01:32:23,001 --> 01:32:24,601
So like a chatbot kind of thing.

1606
01:32:25,341 --> 01:32:27,980
And, you know, you can't have a client

1607
01:32:27,980 --> 01:32:29,261
for the server on Signal.

1608
01:32:29,380 --> 01:32:30,520
It's like fully closed.

1609
01:32:31,060 --> 01:32:36,001
You know, it's, anyways, there's a lot of, they do a lot of things right.

1610
01:32:37,060 --> 01:32:38,341
A lot of things right.

1611
01:32:38,480 --> 01:32:40,541
So much so that I use it personally a lot.

1612
01:32:40,681 --> 01:32:45,820
But like I'm looking forward to the next iteration of like maybe some fresh ideas and a little bit more freedom.

1613
01:32:46,001 --> 01:32:46,101
Right.

1614
01:32:46,221 --> 01:32:47,920
And I think White Noise does that.

1615
01:32:48,341 --> 01:32:58,320
White Noise uses MLS, which is like the evolution of the signal protocol for privacy and secret messaging.

1616
01:32:58,320 --> 01:33:01,920
but it integrates with Noster

1617
01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:03,761
so you don't need servers.

1618
01:33:04,621 --> 01:33:05,701
How amazing is that?

1619
01:33:08,860 --> 01:33:10,101
I'm looking forward to that.

1620
01:33:10,181 --> 01:33:11,621
Jeff G is working on that.

1621
01:33:12,841 --> 01:33:17,241
It's my next super needed app.

1622
01:33:18,420 --> 01:33:20,920
Yeah, I mean, it's also one of those things

1623
01:33:20,920 --> 01:33:24,501
where being able to open source it

1624
01:33:24,501 --> 01:33:26,141
and make it available for folks

1625
01:33:26,141 --> 01:33:28,041
because like Signal, there's a pretty good chance

1626
01:33:28,041 --> 01:33:34,081
with some of the upcoming laws uh you know in europe i forget when when are they voting on that

1627
01:33:34,081 --> 01:33:38,581
uh that that new like backdoor encryption law they're voting on it i think on like the 12th

1628
01:33:38,581 --> 01:33:45,320
or 13th of october where in the eu they may force uh messaging providers to give them a backdoor

1629
01:33:45,320 --> 01:33:49,860
even to encrypted messaging which is like okay and signal basically said they've got to they're

1630
01:33:49,860 --> 01:33:55,520
gonna get out of there um but yeah uh i know you got to jump so let's let's close this out

1631
01:33:55,520 --> 01:33:57,081
where do you want to send folks?

1632
01:33:59,601 --> 01:34:00,081
Just

1633
01:34:00,081 --> 01:34:02,380
I want to send them

1634
01:34:02,380 --> 01:34:03,400
out of Twitter.

1635
01:34:04,900 --> 01:34:06,801
I want to send them to the park

1636
01:34:06,801 --> 01:34:08,641
near their houses, you know,

1637
01:34:09,001 --> 01:34:10,841
like stock the sets, go walk

1638
01:34:10,841 --> 01:34:12,801
on grass, fuck all this

1639
01:34:12,801 --> 01:34:14,980
noise, go enjoy your life,

1640
01:34:15,101 --> 01:34:16,801
go build things, go be productive,

1641
01:34:17,581 --> 01:34:18,721
you know, and

1642
01:34:18,721 --> 01:34:20,900
you know, get yourself

1643
01:34:20,900 --> 01:34:22,761
a cold card, stick the money

1644
01:34:22,761 --> 01:34:24,360
in it and move on. Like

1645
01:34:24,360 --> 01:34:30,980
it really is that simple like it's just so simple it's so simple that people cannot believe how

1646
01:34:30,980 --> 01:34:37,780
simple it is right so they have to complicate it just just you know stack the stats you know and

1647
01:34:37,780 --> 01:34:44,960
go live your life that is fantastic advice and vk thanks for coming on here i'm gonna cut this

1648
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:49,081
now thanks to everyone who joined in the live stream as well appreciate you guys peace thanks

1649
01:34:49,081 --> 01:34:49,880
for having me

1650
01:34:54,360 --> 01:35:01,681
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast.

1651
01:35:02,341 --> 01:35:06,301
Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening

1652
01:35:06,301 --> 01:35:10,601
and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.

1653
01:35:10,601 --> 01:35:17,320
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash walker and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin.

1654
01:35:17,900 --> 01:35:21,181
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America.

1655
01:35:21,181 --> 01:35:26,020
and find this podcast on X and Instagram at titcoinpodcast.

1656
01:35:26,161 --> 01:35:28,701
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links,

1657
01:35:28,780 --> 01:35:33,501
head to substack.com slash atwalkeramerica to get episodes emailed to you

1658
01:35:33,501 --> 01:35:37,320
and head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else.

1659
01:35:37,860 --> 01:35:41,400
Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant.

1660
01:35:41,920 --> 01:35:47,041
So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast.

1661
01:35:47,041 --> 01:35:50,081
Until next time, stay free.

1662
01:35:51,181 --> 01:35:54,541
.