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So the one thing that we all know is we know that Bitcoin is going to do what we know it's going to do.

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So these companies that are building around it are going to do very well.

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It's going to be similar to the personal computer revolution or the Internet revolution that we all lived through.

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I'm a hair older than you, but not too much.

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And, you know, I mean, is Blockstream the Cisco systems of Bitcoin?

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You take things like what's going to happen when Bank of America actually adds Bitcoin one day?

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What's going to happen? What are they going to do? Are they going to hire three lightning devs and figure it out?

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I don't think so. I think they're probably going to make some strategic acquisitions and buy some customers and buy some technology.

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And we've kind of seeded 40 some 40 to 50 companies in the space that are really kind of prime for when Uber does decide to add Bitcoin.

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What are they going to do? I mean, that's that's what I'm focused on.

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I haven't been kind of distracted with the shiny Bitcoin treasury companies.

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I think it's cool.

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I think it's interesting and fun.

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But, you know, we stay in our lane here.

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And by the way, I don't know why the Bitcoin treasury companies are putting that in through an AMBOSS deal and actually generating riskless yield, even if it's one to one and a half percent on the Lightning Network, just routing payments.

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I mean, imagine a sailor took that and was actually generating riskless yield by putting some of it to work, right?

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I think we're going to see a lot of those type of strategies coming too.

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You're still early.

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This episode is brought to you by Blockware.

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This is not tax advice, so go speak to the team at Blockware to learn more.

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That's mining.blockwaresolutions.com slash titcoin.

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Head to the show notes for links to find the show on centralized social media platforms and on Noster,

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or just go directly to bitcoinpodcast.net. You'll find it all there.

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And kind reminder that you can support this show by becoming a paid subscriber on Fountain.

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Or don't. Bitcoin doesn't care, but I sure do appreciate it.

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Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk.

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Muzzman, what's going on? Welcome back.

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It's been the last time you were on here.

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It's been like well over a year.

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You were a pretty early guest actually on this podcast.

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I was honored because you had me on early and you had no viewers.

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So that was good.

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You know, you got to start somewhere.

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People don't realize the grind of building out a Bitcoin podcast.

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Like it turns out it's, it's,

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even though you're talking about what many of us would argue is the most

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important topic in the world, which is fixing the money.

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It turns out it's hard to get people to pay attention to that when there's so

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many cat videos and various various bar fights and gas station brawls to

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distract them with like people just,

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it's like pulling teeth to get them to care about sound money. I don't know,

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man.

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So how long has it been now? Cause you really have built it up.

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so I think I started it in August of 2023.

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So it's been over two years now, I guess.

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Time flies.

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This podcast is older than my son, which is,

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it's a good marker.

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I started the podcast like, I don't know,

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four or five months before he was born, I think,

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because my beautiful wife, Carla,

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was no longer feeling like editing short form videos,

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turns out, while she was very pregnant.

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Who could have seen that coming?

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So then I was like, what do you do?

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You as a man of a certain age, you just you got to start a podcast, right?

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And your your your son is almost old enough to now be a guest, right?

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He is.

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I mean, I'm really just trying to try to bring him up to be my co-host.

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Eventually, that would be the goal.

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That's every every Bitcoin podcaster's dream is to have have their offspring be their co-host.

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Actually, you know, Daniel Daniel Prince, the one spitting podcast.

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He does this with his his daughter.

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His daughter's been asking the first question on his podcast.

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I think he's got like over 500 episodes.

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She's awesome.

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And she's been asking the first question that podcast for like five years,

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which is just very cool.

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What a cool thing to be able to look back on.

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What an awesome father daughter activity to be able to do.

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Bitcoin podcasting is for anyone who's willing to pick up a microphone.

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Yeah, he's an awesome guy.

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His whole family and the fact that they, you know,

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I think you guys will be like that, you know, as your children develop and grow and everything.

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But just going to the conferences, knowing some of the other kids that are there, just they have such a unique childhood with based parents dragging them to Bitcoin conferences.

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And can I tell a quick story about his family and his Rakamoto?

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Yeah.

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So we did one in Prague and I needed somebody to run the door.

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and we thought, hey, why don't we pay Princey's kids

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to work the door at the event

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and we'll give them either Bitcoin

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or 50 or 100 euros or something.

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And it's kind of like you're an adult

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and you're asking somebody for 20 bucks or 25 euros

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and you're like taking this thing,

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you don't want to deal with it

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or maybe 20% of the show's over, you feel bad.

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You're like, oh, yeah, well, just go on in or whatever.

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But the kids are ruthless.

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I mean, the kids were like every person who came in, both of them was like 20 euros.

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We accept Bitcoin.

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We accept, you know, cash and we have change, you know, and they were just like so on it.

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It was like the most profitable Rakamoto.

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I think we made like 500 euros and we gave them each like 100 because they were just ruthless.

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And they were asking people they we were joking.

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I was like, ask people if they're 21, you know, and they're like asking, like, are you 21?

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You have to be 21 to get in here.

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It was, it was so cute, man.

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They were, they were so young.

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Dude, that's, that's amazing though.

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Now, you know, just hire, hire kids for, to work the doors because child labor works.

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Yeah, it works.

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And what a great life experience.

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Like if you, if you can, I mean, you're, you're running front of house, running door security

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as a kid, like you're, you're going to be set.

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Like you will know how to handle people going into life.

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That's a good skill.

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And, and also like on the other side of it, you're, you know, you're in your 30s.

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or 40s, you're paying for two, you got to pull out 40 euros coming from a 12 year old kid.

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All right. Right. Like, yeah, you don't you don't want to look bad in front of the kid,

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right? You want to be like, yeah, I've got the fiat. Don't worry, I'm good for it.

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That's awesome. Their whole family is fantastic. It's a it's a great example of I think the

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what the next generation can look like with great parenting, great life experiences early on and

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truly living on a Bitcoin standard. Like it's gives me a lot of kids like that give me so much

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hope for the future to come. It's it's makes me very bullish on humanity. Yeah, me too. And I love

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to see that a lot of the conferences, I think the first time that I really noticed it was in

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Madeira. But I love that the conferences are really kind of starting the kids corner area,

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the like kids section, you know, and it's not like they're teaching them, you know, firearm safety.

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uh but you know it's not exactly like the fiat uh the fiat kids corner that you would expect on

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like the disney cruise or something yeah i mean firearm safety could be a good one for uh for

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you know different types of conferences like you know that's i think i took hunter's safety how old

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was i like what 10 or 11 maybe that sounds about right i mean i'd been shooting guns for a while

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before that just because i'm from bumblefuck nowhere wisconsin but i still remember my hunter's

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safety class. It's useful stuff.

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Good to be able to know how to handle a firearm,

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no matter what age you are.

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Definitely.

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As we're recording this, Maz, I just got a notification.

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Bitcoin is just pumped

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right above 122,000

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infinitely printable fiat cuck bucks per coin.

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You love Uptober

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being memed into reality. Isn't that just

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a beautiful thing? It's just like, yep, we're going

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up. It's Uptober. There's no

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question about it.

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Uptober hits hard.

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It's going to be a wild ride.

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It's going to be a wild ride.

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Well, hey, stoked to have you back.

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We've got a few things to talk about today.

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One of the ones we wanted to start with is upcoming pitch competition

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because there is a timely component to this.

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Can you talk about this a little bit?

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It's going to be happening at Lugano Plan B Forum.

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I'm going to be there with my lovely wife as well,

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who everyone really comes to see.

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But you guys are running a pitch competition with the Plan B Network.

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Tell me about it.

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I know you're also still accepting entrance to this competition,

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which is why we're having you on today to be able to talk about this and see if we can drum up some more people who want to pitch this thing.

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Yeah, sure. And I don't know if you have a couple of links there, if you were going to do a screen share over my rambling.

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But yes, we're super excited about it. And we've helped organize a few pitch contests in the past.

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The first BTC Prague had a great pitch contest and the Bitcoin conferences used to do that whole industry day pitch contest thing.

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They haven't done that at the last event or so.

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But this is a lot of fun.

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And I'm helping Giacomo, who I thought was going to be here today.

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But, you know, Giacomo kind of spearheaded it.

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And it's CypherTank.

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It's kind of a play on Shark Tank, which everyone loves Shark Tank.

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But it's Bitcoin-focused.

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So Plan B, Fund, Tether, everyone over there is sponsoring this event and putting it on as the first.

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It's definitely a trial run.

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and it's a lot of fun, and submissions are open and some pretty good prizes, all things considered.

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It's not like you have to be incorporated. You don't have to have a certain level of funding.

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It's just all builders, all ideas. This isn't a pre-accelerator. This isn't a hackathon,

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but if you have something that you're working on, submit it. Why not?

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And it's really cool, too, because there's two tracks. There's a for-profit track and then the

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nonprofit track. So different community organizations, people like, you know, maybe

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meet Premier Bitcoin, you know, I'm just naming, think of every nonprofit in the Bitcoin space,

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the educational initiatives, you know, things like Wiser, I'm trying to come up with a few,

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you know, there's a million. There's like the Tampa Bay Bitcoin people, and then there's a

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Bitcoin jungle people and all these other, like, all of them, you know, apply. It's non-dilutive

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grant money, you know, and they're, they're gonna award quite a bit. I mean, it's over 850,000

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in prizes. So yeah, and then a bunch of the infos here. I mean, it's all we've been talking about

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on the Lightning Ventures Twitter and my Twitter, and this is a trial run. Okay, so this is going to

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be filmed. And it's going to be chopped up and aired afterwards. And hopefully it'll be a series

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of Cypher Tank style events that we can bring to the space. It'll be a lot of fun. We're going to

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have some killer voiceovers. I don't want to spill the beans on who may be those sexy,

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recognizable voices that you know from the Bitcoin world. But maybe, you know, maybe a Brit from

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across the pond and maybe somebody here with a sexy, deep, raspy voice. But it's going to be

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chopped up. It's going to look great. It's going to be really cool. Bunch of all-star people are

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involved. I mean, Adam Back, Paolo is going to be involved. You know, his schedule is crazy,

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but he will be there. A lot of this is confirmed. Odell, Preston, Farrington, Yakes. And the idea

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of this event, whether you're for profit or not for profit, is that you're getting to obviously

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pitch in front of these people. You're getting a bunch of exposure. You're getting expenses paid

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to go to Lugano and the chance to win. But you're also able to kind of negotiate your own deals and

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additional deals with the, you know, I don't want to call them sharks, right? The honey badgers or

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whatever they are with the BCs that are there. So you're not just playing for, you know, the

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sponsored price funds that are going to be distributed, but you might walk away with another,

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you might find even a lead investor that's there or lead to other things. So there's just so much

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good that can come from it. I mean, everyone I know that's got a little nonprofit thing that I'm

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just really encouraging everyone to apply because you know,

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you never know what can happen.

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So I think this is awesome.

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And just,

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I was just going to maybe just read through this for anybody who's

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listening on the audio,

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because I'm sharing this in the screen,

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but eight for profit projects will be selected to come to Lugano for

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recording two from each plan B VC fund categories.

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You've got on chain Bitcoin tech.

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So that's a,

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that's cold storage.

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That's mining,

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financialization,

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et cetera,

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Lightning, Liquid, and RGB tech, so payment scalability, asset protocols, privacy, programmability,

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et cetera. Peer-to-peer tech, decentralized identity, data transmission, storage,

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elaboration, et cetera. And emerging markets, everything connected with or contiguous to

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Bitcoin that can impact emerging markets. And then three nonprofit categories, human rights

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protection, privacy, censorship resistance, scientific breakthroughs, cryptography,

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distributed systems, Lugano, Bitcoin, Citadel, everything connected with or contiguous to

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Bitcoin that can impact the local scene. So there's a lot of different angles there,

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which is kind of cool. I don't see any podcasting categories, which is a little bit,

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I'm a little bit disappointed, but okay, I guess maybe in the future. We're just not there yet in

223
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00:15:39,460 --> 00:15:42,600
Yeah, you know, but those orange-pilling nonprofits

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that are out there or things like,

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what's that game for the kids?

241
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Shamory, is it Shamory?

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Yeah.

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You know, like those type of projects,

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you know, why wouldn't you want to apply?

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to do that. You're doing good work. You're spreading Bitcoin education to kids and people.

246
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:08,260
These tracks and categories, these categories were actually listed on Plan B's funds website.

247
00:16:08,780 --> 00:16:13,140
This was their direction. I didn't pick these. This wasn't like for, you know,

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00:16:13,140 --> 00:16:17,940
that Giacomo and myself chose the categories. Personally, I would rather not have the categories

249
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because when you have the categories, you have to fill them, right? And it's cool to say these

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are what we're looking for. But we it will be two from each. They'll get flown out to Lugano.

251
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It basically lasts a week. There's the the semifinals. And then, of course, the Lugano

252
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,560
week, which will be great. I think you're going to you're going to be there, right?

253
00:16:40,700 --> 00:16:43,480
Yeah, we'll be there. We're emceeing. Yeah.

254
00:16:43,860 --> 00:16:49,780
Nice. And then and then the finals and then that'll be it. So it's a lot of fun. And we're,

255
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grassroots doing all we can to promote it and get the word out there.

256
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We're doing all we can.

257
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We're trying our best.

258
00:17:01,340 --> 00:17:06,040
But submissions, I think, will be open until definitely October 7th,

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and I think we got word that we can extend it to maybe October 10th.

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But, you know, it's a lot of plain slice and accommodations

261
00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:14,800
that we got to book for the winners and all that stuff.

262
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So we can't push it too far, but we want to get as many submissions as possible.

263
00:17:18,660 --> 00:17:38,940
Yeah, yeah. And for anybody who's listening there, planbweek.com and then just go and look for CypherTank on there. And I would hope that next year maybe there will be a Bitcoin podcasting category because we need more Bitcoin podcasts. We need to be funding really creative implementations of Bitcoin podcasts.

264
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I think I'll have to, you know, maybe I'm going to have to do like a meta pitch to be able to get Bitcoin podcasting accepted into future pitch competitions.

265
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Who knows?

266
00:17:47,620 --> 00:17:49,820
We got to be supporting our Bitcoin podcasters, you know?

267
00:17:50,460 --> 00:17:52,080
Well, can I ask you a question?

268
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:52,920
Yeah.

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You know, that's kind of, you know, a portfolio company and good friends and all.

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The name we know and love is Geyser, right?

271
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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From the VC land, and that's why this pitch contest, one of the reasons why I actually really like doing this and getting involved, besides all the money that this brings us, right, because we all know that I'm motivated by money here, is that we get a lot of inbound of like, hey, I'm working on this really cool movie.

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Like we're going to educate people on mining.

274
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Like I'm working on this Broadway play, elaborate Satoshi story kind of thing.

275
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All of those type of projects are not really VC fundable.

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You don't invest in movies.

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You don't invest in entertainment things.

278
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It's just not something that is really appropriate for VC funding.

279
00:18:41,820 --> 00:18:49,760
So usually I like to send them to Geyser and those type of things like podcasts or the Bitcoin racing car.

280
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and these type of things, right?

281
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Those type of initiatives.

282
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It's great to have on Geyser.

283
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,980
I was going to ask you if you ever had a campaign up there

284
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or had any success there,

285
00:18:58,580 --> 00:19:01,520
but specifically for this type of event,

286
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,160
I'm reaching back out to all those people

287
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that are creating awareness.

288
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And Coach Carbin with his football soccer kids

289
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that he kind of does,

290
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,460
and all of these really cool things

291
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that are Bitcoin adjacent and nonprofits

292
00:19:16,140 --> 00:19:21,240
and good-natured things can apply for this

293
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:22,880
and maybe walk away with some cashola.

294
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:24,800
So what are your thoughts on Geyser?

295
00:19:24,820 --> 00:19:26,160
Have you ever fired up a campaign?

296
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:28,000
I have.

297
00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:31,920
I mean, honestly, I have one for the Bitcoin podcast

298
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:33,680
that I started a while ago.

299
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:34,660
I just went on there.

300
00:19:34,660 --> 00:19:39,740
It has raised 40,256 sats.

301
00:19:40,180 --> 00:19:43,580
Granted, I haven't really promoted it at all.

302
00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:46,080
But yeah, let's see.

303
00:19:46,140 --> 00:19:49,960
geyser.fund slash project slash titcoin.

304
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:51,800
It has, yeah.

305
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,320
So, you know, because that's the other thing.

306
00:19:54,420 --> 00:19:56,540
It's Geyser is, I honestly really like Geyser.

307
00:19:56,620 --> 00:20:00,780
I think it's a great solution for people to be able to fundraise.

308
00:20:00,780 --> 00:20:04,800
And especially if you're trying to incorporate some, let's say, value for value, or, you

309
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,760
know, there's, I know there's a lot of other creative ways you could use Geyser too.

310
00:20:07,860 --> 00:20:11,880
You could, I mean, you could honestly probably use it as a way to like sell, you know, pleb

311
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,040
sponsorships, let's say, you know, roll some credits with your,

312
00:20:16,140 --> 00:20:18,280
your Geyser Fund pleb sponsors on there.

313
00:20:19,140 --> 00:20:19,820
I'm going to say it's a,

314
00:20:20,020 --> 00:20:20,180
I mean,

315
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:37,966
Geyser fantastic I think that we need more more people using these sort of Bitcoin native funding mechanisms for these sorts of projects Because that the thing you realize is that I mean I donated to I mean probably like a couple I mean at least like a dozen I say different projects on Geyser just randomly over the years

316
00:20:38,326 --> 00:20:43,106
Because it's great to be able to fund things you want to see in the world, right?

317
00:20:43,186 --> 00:20:44,746
And you can do it with Bitcoin.

318
00:20:45,006 --> 00:20:46,866
And like that just, I don't know, it feels good.

319
00:20:46,906 --> 00:20:49,066
Even if it's just a few sats, like it makes a difference.

320
00:20:49,066 --> 00:20:54,526
especially when it's something that you know and love right like i remember i donated to no bs

321
00:20:54,526 --> 00:20:58,966
bitcoin you remember that daily newsletter i loved that newsletter that came out every day you know

322
00:20:58,966 --> 00:21:03,986
it's definitely one that i read but your geyser campaign you know you've gotten over 40 000 sats

323
00:21:03,986 --> 00:21:09,146
and you know one day that'll buy you a new tesla you just gotta wait a little bit but you know the

324
00:21:09,146 --> 00:21:15,426
thing with geyser is since it is kind of we're in a new novel you know area with bitcoin and that

325
00:21:15,426 --> 00:21:21,646
You don't have like the exposure of like the Indiegogo and the Kickstarter where you're just getting hundreds of thousands of eyeballs.

326
00:21:21,866 --> 00:21:24,026
But they also take a much larger fee.

327
00:21:24,446 --> 00:21:29,246
So the thing with Geyser and those type of campaigns is you have to really promote them.

328
00:21:29,286 --> 00:21:36,486
And I was actually amazed by your signature page the other day because you had like 50 different links of like here's this.

329
00:21:36,586 --> 00:21:39,166
And I'm like, man, I'm like, he's got everything in this.

330
00:21:39,186 --> 00:21:40,686
And I'm clicking around and I'm clicking around.

331
00:21:40,686 --> 00:21:45,926
and I end up on the link tree and I don't see support my work where it opens to geyser.

332
00:21:46,066 --> 00:21:47,846
So that might be something you want to think about.

333
00:21:48,446 --> 00:21:50,026
You know, you are absolutely right.

334
00:21:50,146 --> 00:21:52,606
See, Maz, this is why I bring you on.

335
00:21:52,686 --> 00:21:54,686
It's for the advice on how to grow Bitcoin podcasts.

336
00:21:55,466 --> 00:21:58,366
It is interesting that like we did see, you know, you mentioned like, okay,

337
00:21:58,406 --> 00:22:01,166
podcasts are not like a VC investable thing, which like makes sense.

338
00:22:01,586 --> 00:22:04,286
I'm also not a VC, so I don't understand the intricacies of this.

339
00:22:04,646 --> 00:22:06,526
But what is interesting, I thought, I mean,

340
00:22:06,526 --> 00:22:09,966
we did see a podcast get acquired by a publicly traded company.

341
00:22:09,966 --> 00:22:16,646
this cycle. The, uh, my, the MSTR true North podcast got acquired by strive, right? I think

342
00:22:16,646 --> 00:22:22,566
it was strive that acquired them. Like that's like a, that's a wild kind of shift. Like that's

343
00:22:22,566 --> 00:22:27,426
not just sponsoring a podcast that's saying we're actually going to buy out a podcast. I mean, like,

344
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I don't know. That was to me, I was like, Oh, that's interesting. Like my podcast is not for

345
00:22:31,686 --> 00:22:35,746
sale, but that was an interesting, uh, that was a very interesting development. At least I thought

346
00:22:35,746 --> 00:22:39,486
I just hadn't, I hadn't like thought about it in that regard, I guess, but it makes sense. It's

347
00:22:39,486 --> 00:22:42,986
just ultimately what is a podcast? It's like, it's a media business, right?

348
00:22:43,966 --> 00:22:48,206
It's a media business. And, you know, that was a really interesting, I don't know if you want to

349
00:22:48,206 --> 00:22:51,806
call it an acquisition, right? I mean, I love that show. Everyone loves that show. But, you know,

350
00:22:51,826 --> 00:22:56,466
sold for a dollar, who knows what the real sort of acqui-hire and what they're getting paid.

351
00:22:56,726 --> 00:23:01,486
But it's great if you're looking to start a media arm or brand something, you know, I mean,

352
00:23:01,746 --> 00:23:06,706
one of the people who always did it the best, whatever you think, is Swan. You know, Swan

353
00:23:06,706 --> 00:23:11,946
really did marketing so well with their podcasts and their content and all the stuff that they

354
00:23:11,946 --> 00:23:18,106
created a lot of those other bitcoin only exchanges kind of looked to them for a lot of advice right

355
00:23:18,106 --> 00:23:23,966
like relay and 21 things about bitcoin and all these pdfs and materials i mean swan was the like

356
00:23:23,966 --> 00:23:29,466
the leader in all that you know and you you swallow up a couple of these podcasts and it's really a

357
00:23:29,466 --> 00:23:36,006
nice little media media department and you said you're not for sale but i happen to know that

358
00:23:36,006 --> 00:23:40,866
everything is for sale Walker. Everything has a price. Okay.

359
00:23:42,226 --> 00:23:48,426
That's fair. But, but boy, I don't know what my, my price would be. You know, it would,

360
00:23:48,906 --> 00:23:51,306
it would need to be a lot. Cause the nice thing about this podcast is like,

361
00:23:51,306 --> 00:23:57,646
I do this without the expectation that I will make money on it. I do it because like I have

362
00:23:57,646 --> 00:24:01,526
my fiat job. That's how I pay the bills and whatnot. And that's how I stack sats.

363
00:24:01,526 --> 00:24:06,506
if I end up making some stats in the podcast, that's great. But my ultimate goal is like,

364
00:24:06,586 --> 00:24:10,946
I want a Bitcoin podcast because I think, you know, Bitcoin podcasting is the most important

365
00:24:10,946 --> 00:24:14,426
job in the world and we need more Bitcoin podcasters. So really the point of my podcast

366
00:24:14,426 --> 00:24:19,966
is to inspire other Bitcoin podcasts. Let a thousand Bitcoin podcasts bloom. We need to

367
00:24:19,966 --> 00:24:26,506
eviscerate the TradFi podcast market and completely supplant it with the Bitcoin podcast ecosystem.

368
00:24:26,506 --> 00:24:27,826
This is my mission.

369
00:24:28,006 --> 00:24:29,406
You know, this is my mission in life.

370
00:24:30,266 --> 00:24:48,306
Well, I'd love to talk about those type of things and even acquisitions in general, because, you know, thankfully, things are finally starting to heat up, both within our own portfolio at Lightning Ventures, my own psychotic angel investing portfolio, and things like this acquisition with Strive and MSTR.

371
00:24:48,306 --> 00:24:54,726
And I would not be surprised in this bull market if you didn't get some very interesting inbound offers in.

372
00:24:55,746 --> 00:24:58,206
And, you know, really, it's like, what does it cost?

373
00:24:58,246 --> 00:25:01,886
I don't want to sell it. Right. I love, you know, Nico from Simply.

374
00:25:02,366 --> 00:25:08,426
You know, he's he's built a monster over there with other things, you know, but you think about like, what are you selling?

375
00:25:08,526 --> 00:25:11,526
Like you're not selling out. Right. I come from a music background.

376
00:25:11,666 --> 00:25:14,966
It's like you're a sellout man. You went to the major label and you did this and that.

377
00:25:14,966 --> 00:25:18,606
And, you know, what you're doing is, is like you're a one man show, right?

378
00:25:18,626 --> 00:25:27,046
Or maybe a one and a half man show, you know, instead of dealing with the clips and dealing with all of that stuff and dealing with landing sponsors.

379
00:25:27,046 --> 00:25:30,306
Right. And by the way, Walker needs some sponsors right now.

380
00:25:30,506 --> 00:25:34,226
OK, if you want a good show to sponsor, reach out to him.

381
00:25:34,486 --> 00:25:37,026
Darn it. Tell him promo code muzz.

382
00:25:37,726 --> 00:25:41,686
And yeah, give you some kickbacks in the back end.

383
00:25:41,686 --> 00:25:47,746
And Nico has built a heck of an empire over there.

384
00:25:47,886 --> 00:25:48,706
It's super impressive.

385
00:25:48,706 --> 00:25:57,706
Between Nico, BDC Sessions, those in my mind are very impressive in their scope.

386
00:25:58,546 --> 00:26:04,606
Also, Natalie Brunel, her podcast actually makes it into mainstream financial news charts.

387
00:26:06,226 --> 00:26:11,066
That's a different, obviously very different styles of shows from Natalie's

388
00:26:11,066 --> 00:26:12,726
to like a simply to even a sessions.

389
00:26:13,786 --> 00:26:16,246
But it's impressive like to,

390
00:26:16,366 --> 00:26:21,566
to be able to get the Bitcoin message into more of those mainstreams that

391
00:26:21,566 --> 00:26:25,326
you're showing up on the Spotify or Apple podcast charts for, you know,

392
00:26:25,386 --> 00:26:27,826
five, you know, finance and investing or whatever. Like you're,

393
00:26:27,866 --> 00:26:30,526
you're getting added to those lists. That's like, that's,

394
00:26:30,526 --> 00:26:33,206
that's super impressive. And honestly, it's like, I, you know,

395
00:26:33,706 --> 00:26:36,006
we need more reaching outside of the echo chamber.

396
00:26:36,506 --> 00:26:38,826
It's talking within the echo chamber is cool too,

397
00:26:39,546 --> 00:26:45,466
But obviously, we want as many people to be on board with Bitcoin as possible because we believe that it's going to be beneficial for them to do so.

398
00:26:46,146 --> 00:26:49,046
And so it's like anytime you can reach outside there, it's a beautiful thing.

399
00:26:50,206 --> 00:26:52,746
Yeah, I mean, those are staples for getting into Bitcoin.

400
00:26:52,746 --> 00:26:57,566
You know, my mom has known about Bitcoin from a distance, but, you know, she finally got in.

401
00:26:57,646 --> 00:26:59,526
She came to Vegas for the conference there.

402
00:26:59,886 --> 00:27:02,346
I'm not sure if she came more for the conference that I invited her.

403
00:27:02,486 --> 00:27:03,746
She just loves Vegas.

404
00:27:03,746 --> 00:27:11,286
but she's one of the few people that just loves that place and we all hate it right but you know

405
00:27:11,286 --> 00:27:17,526
she you know getting her into it right what's very digestible easy content like here's a couple of

406
00:27:17,526 --> 00:27:21,766
you know get to know you videos from Natalie Brunel I sent it to her and it's just so cute

407
00:27:21,766 --> 00:27:27,386
watching her she pulls out her little Samsung Notes app and she's like I want to meet Natalie

408
00:27:27,386 --> 00:27:33,626
Brunel. How do I do that? And I'm like, well, there's a woman's brunch event. Let's, let's get

409
00:27:33,626 --> 00:27:38,286
you a ticket, you know? And I actually took her picture with Natalie Brunel. I thought it was like

410
00:27:38,286 --> 00:27:43,906
so funny, you know? That's amazing. No, that is like, cause that's, that's the thing you realize

411
00:27:43,906 --> 00:27:51,606
that you never know what type of podcaster, creator, personality, whatever is going to really

412
00:27:51,606 --> 00:27:58,446
speak to any particular person. But like, like me, or, or Nico, for example, we may not be as

413
00:27:58,446 --> 00:28:03,266
appealing to learn about Bitcoin from for your mom as Natalie Brunel is. And that's, that's great.

414
00:28:03,306 --> 00:28:07,566
That's why we need like, you need true, like actual diversity, not like DEI diversity, but

415
00:28:07,566 --> 00:28:12,406
just genuine diversity of Bitcoin podcasts, because you never know what's going to appeal

416
00:28:12,406 --> 00:28:18,606
to a particular person. But your mom, I imagine that she was, she was over the moon to get her

417
00:28:18,606 --> 00:28:24,166
picture with Natalie. Yeah, she was. She got a few, but it was so funny. She was taking notes on her

418
00:28:24,166 --> 00:28:28,806
phone and everything. But like, you know, you find out what works for each person, right? And,

419
00:28:28,926 --> 00:28:32,786
you know, hey, first thing I sent her was a Michael Saylor clip. And in that clip,

420
00:28:32,866 --> 00:28:36,346
Saylor's like, sell your kidney, mortgage your house, sell everything you have, go into debt,

421
00:28:36,446 --> 00:28:40,726
go into debt, buy more Bitcoin. She was like, I don't know about this, right? And then it's like,

422
00:28:40,726 --> 00:28:44,506
okay, let's dial it back. And then, you know, right before the conference, she's like,

423
00:28:44,506 --> 00:28:49,866
Michael Saylor she's like is that the same Michael Saylor from my retirement account I'm like that's

424
00:28:49,866 --> 00:28:56,346
the one that's the one mom let's go and she had this notepad and she was just like she was like

425
00:28:56,346 --> 00:29:03,346
oh Michael I want to ask you do you know Katie the Russian I saw like a notes pad and my mom had

426
00:29:03,346 --> 00:29:08,006
written like Katie she was like she was talking about she saw the family's one you were on that

427
00:29:08,006 --> 00:29:12,746
panel weren't you nice yeah yeah you were on that yeah she she picked this I picked that I picked

428
00:29:12,746 --> 00:29:15,686
that out. I'm like, I think this will be cool. You know, and she really liked it.

429
00:29:16,626 --> 00:29:21,786
Dude, I love to hear it. You know, again, we need diversity of content to bring people in.

430
00:29:22,406 --> 00:29:26,466
And I like shifting because I could talk about Bitcoin podcasts all day. But I do want to talk

431
00:29:26,466 --> 00:29:32,226
about Bitcoin companies more specifically a little bit. So you also personally, obviously,

432
00:29:32,226 --> 00:29:36,826
through Lightning Ventures as well, invest in a lot of different Bitcoin startups. And right now,

433
00:29:36,826 --> 00:29:44,046
Bitcoin treasury companies, you know, publicly traded companies have really been the hot topic,

434
00:29:44,166 --> 00:29:48,946
you know, paper Bitcoin summer. That's what people have been focused on. But in the background and

435
00:29:48,946 --> 00:29:52,786
throughout all of the bear market and everything else, there's been a lot of actual building

436
00:29:52,786 --> 00:29:58,246
happening for not Bitcoin treasury companies, but Bitcoin companies that also happen to have

437
00:29:58,246 --> 00:30:01,926
Bitcoin treasuries because of course they will. They're, you know, they're Bitcoin companies,

438
00:30:01,926 --> 00:30:05,966
they're creating Bitcoin products. Can we talk a little bit about maybe some of the companies

439
00:30:05,966 --> 00:30:11,826
in your portfolio, what you look at from Lightning Ventures in terms of like, what is your,

440
00:30:11,906 --> 00:30:15,286
you know, what is your investment thesis and how do you actually make these decisions? Because now

441
00:30:15,286 --> 00:30:19,246
you, you know, like you guys versus ego death versus some of these others, like you've all got

442
00:30:19,246 --> 00:30:23,526
kind of slightly different, but maybe, you know, Bitcoin is the through line in these investment

443
00:30:23,526 --> 00:30:28,986
theses. But talk about that a little bit. What, where are you guys at? What are you guys looking

444
00:30:28,986 --> 00:30:35,286
for? What are you guys most excited about right now? Yeah. So, you know, as far as what you're

445
00:30:35,286 --> 00:30:41,386
talking about paper Bitcoin and all of that stuff. Markets are fascinating. I love markets just as a

446
00:30:41,386 --> 00:30:48,666
hobby. You know, you can tell I have, you know, my MBA from, you know, Cornell. But just learning

447
00:30:48,666 --> 00:30:54,166
what everything I've learned, I've learned on my own. And it's just so fun to watch the phases.

448
00:30:54,646 --> 00:31:00,546
Okay. And you have there was a point in time where everyone wanted to invest in Bitcoin startups and

449
00:31:00,546 --> 00:31:05,906
companies. These are real businesses. There's no tokens here. This isn't any sort of, but that was,

450
00:31:06,186 --> 00:31:11,006
the markets were hot. It was a very hot market. And a lot of people were investing, especially in

451
00:31:11,006 --> 00:31:16,526
our Lightning Venture Syndicate and others. They raised a lot of funds. And then things really hit

452
00:31:16,526 --> 00:31:21,526
the fan. And then there was this flavor of ordinals, right, where there was a lot of people

453
00:31:21,526 --> 00:31:26,646
that were getting into art, art on Bitcoin, art on chain, Bitcoin culture. You know, I once had

454
00:31:26,646 --> 00:31:30,226
somebody told me, I sold all my Bitcoin. I bought all ordinals because I think it's all about Bitcoin

455
00:31:30,226 --> 00:31:34,926
culture. I said, I want everyone to win and good luck to you. But that's that is not for me. So

456
00:31:34,926 --> 00:31:38,146
then there was that and there were these other things, right? There was runes and you know,

457
00:31:38,146 --> 00:31:44,366
whatever other things that there there were, okay, and then it came to Bitcoin treasuries,

458
00:31:44,586 --> 00:31:50,546
which is great. I would rather have that be the primary driver of this cycle than say,

459
00:31:50,866 --> 00:31:57,646
the altcoin ICO kind of boom bust thing, right? At least these are companies, many publicly traded

460
00:31:57,646 --> 00:32:02,606
that are adding Bitcoin to their balance sheet as a reserve asset.

461
00:32:02,766 --> 00:32:08,306
Some of them with the sole purpose of acquiring more Bitcoin is the company.

462
00:32:08,406 --> 00:32:09,246
That's a whole other thing.

463
00:32:09,586 --> 00:32:11,406
But then that's the flavor, right?

464
00:32:11,646 --> 00:32:12,646
And everyone wants that.

465
00:32:12,646 --> 00:32:16,926
And there's a million things that are very good about Bitcoin treasury companies

466
00:32:16,926 --> 00:32:22,846
or even just you having some Bitcoin treasury companies in your interactive brokers portfolio

467
00:32:22,846 --> 00:32:25,226
and what you can do with that, right?

468
00:32:25,226 --> 00:32:27,426
Because you could margin against it.

469
00:32:27,646 --> 00:32:37,006
And you could use other tools in the tool belt with options that are easy for a U.S. person who can't use Darabit and other things like that.

470
00:32:37,786 --> 00:32:44,446
You know, there's more tools in your tool belt to have even just a little part of it in some of these, even IBIT or one of these ETFs.

471
00:32:44,446 --> 00:32:50,426
And now what you're seeing, which is great, because the Bitcoin treasury companies are way out of favor, right?

472
00:32:50,506 --> 00:32:52,086
It's like almost everyone turned their back.

473
00:32:52,206 --> 00:32:54,746
MicroStrategy was underperforming, you know.

474
00:32:54,746 --> 00:33:01,306
uh all of these you know every other day there's a bitcoin treasury company in africa in the uk

475
00:33:01,306 --> 00:33:06,266
and here and there and you know and it doesn't seem like they're getting the real stretched

476
00:33:06,266 --> 00:33:11,626
valuations m navs and all the things they were getting before they kind of fell out of

477
00:33:11,626 --> 00:33:17,426
out of flavor but now it's really fun and interesting to see that cold storage bitcoin

478
00:33:17,426 --> 00:33:23,466
is in right cold storage bitcoin is what people want everyone that was out there before and how

479
00:33:23,466 --> 00:33:27,566
do I, you know, take a loan against this and invest in startups? And that's okay. No, I'm

480
00:33:27,566 --> 00:33:31,186
going to buy a bunch of these JPEGs and I'm going to do whatever. And there's an, oh, I'm going to

481
00:33:31,186 --> 00:33:34,646
go into these Bitcoin treasury companies, man, this is the future. And now they're just like,

482
00:33:34,766 --> 00:33:41,546
fuck everything, send it to the cold storage at home. And it's just really cool to see the

483
00:33:41,546 --> 00:33:46,386
psychology of people go through these waves. And trust me, all of those things are going to have

484
00:33:46,386 --> 00:33:52,446
their day again. It's always a cycle. And I just, I'm fascinated by it. I think it's just so cool

485
00:33:52,446 --> 00:33:54,546
to see that flip around.

486
00:33:54,766 --> 00:33:57,046
We haven't diverted from that

487
00:33:57,046 --> 00:34:00,626
because what we do is we invest in Bitcoin startups

488
00:34:00,626 --> 00:34:04,746
and companies and private markets

489
00:34:04,746 --> 00:34:07,126
and opportunities that are building on, around,

490
00:34:07,226 --> 00:34:10,006
or with Bitcoin and the future of infrastructure,

491
00:34:10,266 --> 00:34:11,906
on-ramps, off-ramps, exchanges.

492
00:34:12,386 --> 00:34:13,586
You know, Bitcoin's everywhere now.

493
00:34:13,666 --> 00:34:15,626
There's Bitcoin in art, you know, Scarcity.

494
00:34:15,746 --> 00:34:18,126
They do all the cool art galleries at the conferences,

495
00:34:18,326 --> 00:34:19,686
portfolio company, love them.

496
00:34:20,606 --> 00:34:22,546
You know, they're a 100% Bitcoin business.

497
00:34:23,846 --> 00:34:26,866
Or, you know, healthcare, things like CrowdHealth.

498
00:34:26,966 --> 00:34:29,206
I think CrowdHealth did get rid of that Bitcoin element.

499
00:34:29,366 --> 00:34:37,786
But, you know, it was entering into healthcare, energy, how people are paying their electric bill via Lightning Network and paper usage and things that are, you know, happening.

500
00:34:38,646 --> 00:34:48,146
Outside on-ramps, offerings, the debit cards, the TradFi stuff, advertising technology, you know, rewards and all of these things.

501
00:34:48,146 --> 00:34:50,486
It's just there's just so much going on.

502
00:34:50,806 --> 00:34:57,246
So the one thing that we all know is we know that Bitcoin is going to do what we know it's going to do.

503
00:34:57,426 --> 00:35:03,446
So these companies that are building around it are going to do very well.

504
00:35:03,566 --> 00:35:09,106
It's going to be similar to the personal computer revolution or the Internet revolution that we all lived through.

505
00:35:09,206 --> 00:35:11,366
I'm a hair older than you, but not too much.

506
00:35:11,926 --> 00:35:15,706
And, you know, I mean, is Blockstream the Cisco systems of Bitcoin?

507
00:35:15,706 --> 00:35:23,146
you take things like what's going to happen when Bank of America actually adds Bitcoin one day

508
00:35:23,146 --> 00:35:26,806
what's going to happen what are they going to do are they going to hire three lightning

509
00:35:26,806 --> 00:35:30,886
devs and figure it out I don't think so I think they're probably going to make some strategic

510
00:35:30,886 --> 00:35:40,286
acquisitions and buy some customers and buy some technology and we've kind of seeded 45 40 some 40

511
00:35:40,286 --> 00:35:47,346
to 50 companies in the space that are really kind of prime for when Uber does decide to

512
00:35:47,346 --> 00:35:48,366
add Bitcoin.

513
00:35:48,826 --> 00:35:49,746
What are they going to do?

514
00:35:50,466 --> 00:35:53,786
So, I mean, that's what I'm focused on.

515
00:35:53,866 --> 00:35:59,086
I haven't been kind of distracted with the shiny Bitcoin treasury companies.

516
00:35:59,166 --> 00:35:59,846
I think it's cool.

517
00:35:59,986 --> 00:36:01,306
I think it's interesting and fun.

518
00:36:02,126 --> 00:36:08,146
But, you know, we stay in our lane here, which is, and by the way, I don't know why the Bitcoin

519
00:36:08,146 --> 00:36:14,186
treasury companies are putting that in through an AMBOSS deal and actually generating riskless

520
00:36:14,186 --> 00:36:19,006
yield, even if it's one to one and a half percent on the Lightning Network, just routing

521
00:36:19,006 --> 00:36:19,586
payments.

522
00:36:20,086 --> 00:36:25,506
I mean, imagine if Saylor took that and was actually generating riskless yield by putting

523
00:36:25,506 --> 00:36:26,466
some of it to work, right?

524
00:36:26,486 --> 00:36:29,266
I think we're going to see a lot of those type of strategies coming too.

525
00:36:30,246 --> 00:36:36,086
I think there have been, I'm forgetting, it might have been the B Hodel company, the one

526
00:36:36,086 --> 00:36:38,106
that just launched in the UK,

527
00:36:38,106 --> 00:36:41,626
I think that was part of their kind of general game plan

528
00:36:41,626 --> 00:36:43,906
was not just buy Bitcoin and hold Bitcoin,

529
00:36:43,906 --> 00:36:47,066
but also make a return by providing liquidity

530
00:36:47,066 --> 00:36:48,026
on the Lightning Network.

531
00:36:48,566 --> 00:36:51,306
And so I think that that's cool

532
00:36:51,306 --> 00:36:53,086
because there's been this whole kind of debate about,

533
00:36:54,146 --> 00:36:56,326
well, do you want a, you know,

534
00:36:56,326 --> 00:36:57,606
some of these businesses have,

535
00:36:58,526 --> 00:37:00,366
they have their core business, right?

536
00:37:00,386 --> 00:37:02,126
Or what was their core business?

537
00:37:02,266 --> 00:37:03,786
Like strategy as the perfect example.

538
00:37:03,786 --> 00:37:07,766
micro strategy when, and they're still micro strategy, they have that core, you know,

539
00:37:07,786 --> 00:37:13,246
business intelligence, business analytics, uh, business. Now that is obviously a super

540
00:37:13,246 --> 00:37:18,626
small relative piece of their pie, but it's still, it's still cashflow on their, on their side.

541
00:37:18,626 --> 00:37:23,886
Right. But then this, okay, is that better? Or is the pure play Bitcoin treasury company better

542
00:37:23,886 --> 00:37:28,426
where all they do is just, they're just, you know, they're just, you know, uh, raising to,

543
00:37:28,426 --> 00:37:31,826
to buy more Bitcoin. Right. And, and to me, it's like,

544
00:37:31,906 --> 00:37:36,026
it seems like the ultimate best thing to have. And again, I'm, I'm no,

545
00:37:36,186 --> 00:37:39,046
I'm no genius about this stuff, but just like gut feeling is like,

546
00:37:39,046 --> 00:37:43,506
you'd want to have a business that is accumulating Bitcoin for its Bitcoin

547
00:37:43,506 --> 00:37:47,406
treasury through whatever fiat vehicles it can on public markets,

548
00:37:47,406 --> 00:37:51,726
but then also has some sort of a core business that is actually related to

549
00:37:51,726 --> 00:37:55,146
Bitcoin as a technology that is related to these secondary layers that is

550
00:37:55,146 --> 00:38:01,606
somehow providing services to this, you know, like that's a, that's a mutually beneficial thing,

551
00:38:01,646 --> 00:38:05,386
right? You're stacking Bitcoin because obviously, but also you want to be part of this ecosystem.

552
00:38:05,386 --> 00:38:09,186
If there's ways for you to make money within this ecosystem that ultimately then benefits

553
00:38:09,186 --> 00:38:14,106
the value of your Bitcoin holdings, like that just seems like a win-win to me. So, I mean,

554
00:38:14,106 --> 00:38:19,406
do you think we start to see, I guess, like, is the current kind of pure play treasury,

555
00:38:19,566 --> 00:38:23,426
Bitcoin treasury companies, do you think just sort of an intermediary step between a lot of these,

556
00:38:23,426 --> 00:38:37,186
maybe smaller Bitcoin startups starting to get acquired by these public vehicles that are already public, that are already publicly traded, like starting to snap up some of these startups that say, OK, well, we want to have a Bitcoin business.

557
00:38:37,186 --> 00:38:41,186
As you said, it's like it's easier to acquire one than it is to build one up from scratch.

558
00:38:41,226 --> 00:38:43,446
Is that kind of your thesis for where some of this is going?

559
00:38:43,446 --> 00:38:50,166
In addition to like maybe the Banks of America's or the JP Morgan's trying to acquire some of these things, where do you think we head there?

560
00:38:50,166 --> 00:38:56,906
the bitcoin treasury companies eventually acquiring operating businesses that actually

561
00:38:56,906 --> 00:39:00,666
make money in the bitcoin space this is something that we've been speculating about and we had a

562
00:39:00,666 --> 00:39:04,366
panel somewhere i can't remember where if it was in helsinki or something talking about it but we

563
00:39:04,366 --> 00:39:08,446
all kind of think that that's the the way that it's going to go for a lot of these companies

564
00:39:08,446 --> 00:39:14,726
i want to talk about the b uh hodl uh because now that that's public i actually i actually can talk

565
00:39:14,726 --> 00:39:21,646
about it. So Coin Corner is one of our portfolio companies. Love them to death. Amazing team.

566
00:39:21,846 --> 00:39:25,886
Legends of Lightning, Bolt cards, everything that they've done. They've been around for over 10

567
00:39:25,886 --> 00:39:30,986
years, by the way, in the tiny part of Isle of Man, where they're based out of. Monster of a

568
00:39:30,986 --> 00:39:39,966
company. Really fucking cool. So they were actually behind that BeHotel ETF. And while it's not them,

569
00:39:39,966 --> 00:39:47,666
OK, it's not them, so to speak. They're doing all the buys and sells for acquiring on that.

570
00:39:47,786 --> 00:39:53,606
And then they are the ones actually responsible for putting the Bitcoin to work to generate some of that yield.

571
00:39:53,706 --> 00:39:57,806
They're they're like legends and they're doing it themselves in house.

572
00:39:57,806 --> 00:40:08,266
And I think that a lot of these companies, these these ETFs will want to acquire cash flow positive Bitcoin businesses to their benefit.

573
00:40:08,266 --> 00:40:13,206
right because you're they're they're mining sats all day long with what they're doing and i just i

574
00:40:13,206 --> 00:40:18,726
don't know how it's sustainable you know long term that etf you know that's like a partnership for

575
00:40:18,726 --> 00:40:25,646
coin corner right which is which is great b hotel is not an it's it's not an etf is it i think so

576
00:40:25,646 --> 00:40:33,286
isn't it the the uk launched one uh that just happened i didn't i i thought it was still like uh

577
00:40:33,286 --> 00:40:37,346
i didn't i didn't think it was technically an etf i could be i could be wrong on this you're

578
00:40:37,346 --> 00:40:38,566
probably more dialed in than I am.

579
00:40:38,726 --> 00:40:41,886
I thought it was still like a typical Bitcoin treasury company.

580
00:40:42,326 --> 00:40:42,726
Okay.

581
00:40:43,026 --> 00:40:43,266
All right.

582
00:40:43,266 --> 00:40:43,966
So you're right.

583
00:40:43,986 --> 00:40:44,246
You're right.

584
00:40:44,246 --> 00:40:45,426
The operating business.

585
00:40:45,906 --> 00:40:46,366
You're right.

586
00:40:46,466 --> 00:40:47,686
So it's not an ETF.

587
00:40:47,986 --> 00:40:58,771
You totally I sorry It is a treasury company that has aligned themselves with you know Coin Corner and is out to get some yield on the Lightning Network and and whatever

588
00:40:59,032 --> 00:41:02,791
But, yeah, I think that a lot of these companies are going to make some of those acquisitions.

589
00:41:03,231 --> 00:41:10,052
I think it's just a matter of time. You know, we just had our first acquisition in our portfolio for Slice.

590
00:41:10,311 --> 00:41:17,331
You know, Slice was acquired as a part of the whole the team that basically created Fold, spun out Fold.

591
00:41:17,331 --> 00:41:25,331
They're called Thesis. You know, they were they acquired Lolly. They acquired Slice and they're going after Bitcoin rewards.

592
00:41:25,471 --> 00:41:29,512
They want to want to take a piece of the Bitcoin rewards market, you know.

593
00:41:29,671 --> 00:41:39,671
So while that wasn't like 3000 X return, because it did happen rather quickly in the in the life cycle of the company, it's a good sign.

594
00:41:39,711 --> 00:41:45,231
And we're starting to see a lot of life come back to the public markets with IPOs, however they're performing.

595
00:41:45,231 --> 00:41:50,731
Right. Gemini. I know we're not talking Bitcoin only here, but Gemini and bullish going public.

596
00:41:51,311 --> 00:41:56,072
And there's a bunch on deck. And I think Kraken is going to go here pretty soon.

597
00:41:56,351 --> 00:42:02,211
And I just think that we're going to start seeing some some acquisitions and consolidation in the space.

598
00:42:02,211 --> 00:42:10,831
in terms of like i guess generally the uh from like on the on the technical side in terms of what

599
00:42:10,831 --> 00:42:16,771
sort of technical solutions you think are or technical products technical services that you

600
00:42:16,771 --> 00:42:19,811
guys are looking at that you think are going to be kind of really hot because you mentioned sort

601
00:42:19,811 --> 00:42:23,931
of the cyclical nature of a lot of these things obviously you guys have a huge focus on like

602
00:42:23,931 --> 00:42:28,351
lightning on payments on things that are built you know on and around kind of these layer twos

603
00:42:28,351 --> 00:42:35,151
is that where you really see kind of this next wave of both growth in companies,

604
00:42:35,151 --> 00:42:37,532
but also from like the user adoption standpoint,

605
00:42:37,831 --> 00:42:41,992
like kind of this bridging between what people are used to,

606
00:42:42,032 --> 00:42:44,791
whether it be various rewards or things like that,

607
00:42:44,791 --> 00:42:47,791
but bridging kind of some of these familiar topics,

608
00:42:48,552 --> 00:42:50,151
these familiar products and services,

609
00:42:50,331 --> 00:42:53,032
but doing it on a Bitcoin standard basically.

610
00:42:53,151 --> 00:42:56,052
Is that where you guys are kind of seeing this evolving in terms of just like,

611
00:42:56,052 --> 00:43:02,131
let's say actual retail user adoption of Bitcoin and how like that's actually going to like,

612
00:43:02,251 --> 00:43:05,072
what does that actually look like for the people that are going to be using this?

613
00:43:05,291 --> 00:43:06,251
Does that make sense?

614
00:43:07,331 --> 00:43:11,271
Yeah, I think that all of these things play an important part.

615
00:43:11,751 --> 00:43:17,532
The ETFs and those type of plays make it very easy for Aunt Mary and Uncle Bob to log into

616
00:43:17,532 --> 00:43:22,651
their Fidelity account and buy iBit or whatever they want and have some exposure to the price.

617
00:43:23,471 --> 00:43:25,411
They're not using Bitcoin, right?

618
00:43:25,411 --> 00:43:39,591
And then it leads to hopefully there isn't like a big blow up that makes everyone second guess everything that's going on with custody and realizing that, you know, there's another way to to basically actually use their Bitcoin.

619
00:43:40,391 --> 00:43:47,631
But getting people like as far as the tech, the tech frontier and things that we're looking at are excited about.

620
00:43:47,751 --> 00:43:49,431
I mean, everyone's talking about ARK.

621
00:43:49,831 --> 00:43:52,351
You know, we just missed a deal for ARK is a pretty big deal.

622
00:43:52,411 --> 00:43:53,371
Everyone's talking about ARK.

623
00:43:53,371 --> 00:43:58,351
I mean, everyone in TradFi land, you know, Vlad from Robinhood.

624
00:43:58,492 --> 00:44:01,451
I mean, if the guy, every other word he says is tokenization.

625
00:44:02,191 --> 00:44:05,512
OK, every other thing he says is tokenization.

626
00:44:05,751 --> 00:44:07,131
The world is going to be tokenized.

627
00:44:08,151 --> 00:44:18,131
And yesterday, actually, the SEC just put forth a framework for tokenizing stocks to trade 24-7.

628
00:44:18,711 --> 00:44:21,391
OK, and that's the SEC putting it forward.

629
00:44:21,391 --> 00:44:22,891
So, like, this is definitely coming.

630
00:44:23,371 --> 00:44:26,151
The question is, will all this stuff come to Bitcoin?

631
00:44:26,411 --> 00:44:32,091
Because what I've been saying for the last 10 years is anything that matters will eventually be done on Bitcoin.

632
00:44:32,611 --> 00:44:38,291
You know, it's, you know, ordinals, you know, NFTs were created by Bitcoin.

633
00:44:38,471 --> 00:44:38,811
You know what I mean?

634
00:44:38,891 --> 00:44:41,431
The first big NFTs were done on Bitcoin.

635
00:44:42,032 --> 00:44:45,211
It's just it's too busy, like solving all the world's problems, like you're saying.

636
00:44:46,032 --> 00:44:48,911
So will the tokenization race win?

637
00:44:48,911 --> 00:44:49,951
Will Liquid win?

638
00:44:49,951 --> 00:44:56,431
OK, when it comes time to I hate this, I hate the real world asset thing that people are, W.A., whatever they say.

639
00:44:56,512 --> 00:45:00,451
But like what's what's going to happen? Are they going to go to a bunch of crypto things?

640
00:45:00,451 --> 00:45:03,151
Is everyone going to go? Is that going to come to Bitcoin?

641
00:45:03,651 --> 00:45:10,871
I can't wait to see because the tokenization of even our investments, even investments.

642
00:45:11,651 --> 00:45:17,871
You know, if you invested in a in a if you invested a few thousand dollars into a startup through Lightning Ventures,

643
00:45:17,871 --> 00:45:27,012
that's done right now in a completely traditional way with DocuSign and there's really no liquidity until an event happens.

644
00:45:27,691 --> 00:45:34,731
But what if we could tokenize your few thousand dollar investment, not tokenize it right, but you know what I mean,

645
00:45:34,731 --> 00:45:43,591
like give you a token and then be able to create some sort of like bulletin board, some sort of even private way for you to interact with another,

646
00:45:43,591 --> 00:45:50,512
you know, accredited, cleared investor and get some liquidity by that. Because for these things

647
00:45:50,512 --> 00:45:56,471
to happen in the traditional VC land, like it's a lot of work to go to a secondary market and

648
00:45:56,471 --> 00:46:00,671
there's a right of first refusal and then the board has to approve and all of these other things.

649
00:46:01,171 --> 00:46:07,151
And that's really exciting because you might be willing to invest in more Bitcoin startups if you

650
00:46:07,151 --> 00:46:14,591
knew that you had options for liquidity, right, that were easier than the current model. So you've

651
00:46:14,591 --> 00:46:20,111
got like the lad from Robinhood, you know, he's tokenizing open AI, which is really pissing off

652
00:46:20,111 --> 00:46:27,311
Sam Altman. He doesn't want his shares tokenized. But traditionally, that was never done. So it's

653
00:46:27,311 --> 00:46:32,032
kind of exciting. And I want to see all of that come to Bitcoin. I want to see all of that just

654
00:46:32,032 --> 00:46:37,291
eat the world for for that are meme coins going to come to bitcoin i don't even know if they're

655
00:46:37,291 --> 00:46:42,191
there already you know but it seems like a lot of people use solana like solana is where your

656
00:46:42,191 --> 00:46:50,771
shit garbage the mouth of world shit meme coins spur from is that going to come to bitcoin i don't

657
00:46:50,771 --> 00:46:55,571
know i don't know if all of this is going to end up on bitcoin well so let me ask you about that

658
00:46:55,571 --> 00:47:00,471
because i think like i think there's already uh like shit coins on bitcoin with like the what

659
00:47:00,471 --> 00:47:01,931
the BRC twenties or whatever.

660
00:47:02,571 --> 00:47:03,571
Are those still around?

661
00:47:04,391 --> 00:47:05,512
I have no idea.

662
00:47:05,651 --> 00:47:06,631
I don't know if people are still,

663
00:47:06,691 --> 00:47:07,811
still launched them or not.

664
00:47:07,852 --> 00:47:11,032
I know there was like that kind of a initial spurt of them.

665
00:47:11,071 --> 00:47:12,352
I don't know if that's died out.

666
00:47:12,411 --> 00:47:12,651
Honestly,

667
00:47:12,691 --> 00:47:15,371
I don't pay attention to that side of things really at all.

668
00:47:15,771 --> 00:47:17,871
But like about the tokenization specifically,

669
00:47:17,871 --> 00:47:21,631
because this is something that gets thrown around as like kind of a buzzword,

670
00:47:21,691 --> 00:47:21,811
you know,

671
00:47:21,831 --> 00:47:23,671
we're going to put X on the blockchain.

672
00:47:23,891 --> 00:47:24,211
Like it's,

673
00:47:24,211 --> 00:47:24,871
it's almost like this,

674
00:47:24,911 --> 00:47:25,971
like this,

675
00:47:25,971 --> 00:47:27,811
like trope at this point or like this,

676
00:47:27,871 --> 00:47:28,012
you know,

677
00:47:28,012 --> 00:47:28,671
it's this cliche,

678
00:47:28,852 --> 00:47:29,391
I should say.

679
00:47:29,391 --> 00:47:35,992
is this something that you think and even you know larry fink has talked about this stuff a lot

680
00:47:35,992 --> 00:47:40,711
everybody's talked about this you know token is a like you said tokenization of real world assets

681
00:47:40,711 --> 00:47:45,012
or of you know securities markets whatever it might be is this something that you think

682
00:47:45,012 --> 00:47:51,451
that bitcoin is actually needed for or can this sort of tokenization like do you just need a

683
00:47:51,451 --> 00:47:54,992
centralized database for it like because that's where i come from with so much this stuff it's

684
00:47:54,992 --> 00:47:58,931
like do you really need to put it quote on the blockchain like does that actually deliver does

685
00:47:58,931 --> 00:48:03,131
that actually do anything beneficial or is that just the buzzword and really you just need an

686
00:48:03,131 --> 00:48:08,731
efficient centrally controlled database for what this is you know what i mean yeah and it goes back

687
00:48:08,731 --> 00:48:13,992
to basically the same argument or debate that's been happening since the 2013 when the first ic

688
00:48:13,992 --> 00:48:21,251
um the first altcoins uh started coming uh is that you know most of what you need does not need

689
00:48:21,251 --> 00:48:26,891
a token it doesn't need a blockchain and a lot of this is actually just misuse of the word

690
00:48:26,891 --> 00:48:32,691
blockchain. I think that there are some very good use cases, right? And I can probably, I definitely

691
00:48:32,691 --> 00:48:39,371
want to name a few, but like, what's not a good use case? They just misuse the word, okay? So when

692
00:48:39,371 --> 00:48:45,411
people say things like, your house, the deed to your house, it's going to be on a blockchain.

693
00:48:48,111 --> 00:48:56,651
If I lose the password, the backup phrase, the whatever, my house would be 100%

694
00:48:56,651 --> 00:49:01,651
irretrievable. Okay, that that's a blockchain. That's how a blockchain works. Right. So that's

695
00:49:01,651 --> 00:49:05,211
not a blockchain that would be, hey, you know, we're going to eliminate red tape, there's going

696
00:49:05,211 --> 00:49:09,151
to be efficiencies, there's going to be a token that represents your house. But that's not a

697
00:49:09,151 --> 00:49:17,271
blockchain. That's just a way to ease 300 pages of paper and red tape and all sorts of things.

698
00:49:17,271 --> 00:49:23,151
It creates more efficiency in that your medical records, everyone, your medical records are going

699
00:49:23,151 --> 00:49:29,352
to be on a blockchain. Well, if I lose that, and my medical records are gone forever, that's never

700
00:49:29,352 --> 00:49:32,711
going to happen because people can't save my life after I get hit by the car. So that's not a

701
00:49:32,711 --> 00:49:39,771
blockchain. Would it be easy for me to biometrically send some sort of token thing to a doctor and

702
00:49:39,771 --> 00:49:44,311
give my permission? And here's all my medical records in a way where we don't have people on

703
00:49:44,311 --> 00:49:49,291
the phone in the back and the faxes coming in and all the ways that like I used to I had a history

704
00:49:49,291 --> 00:49:53,191
in the medical industry, like it's absolutely archaic.

705
00:49:53,251 --> 00:49:55,492
It's from another century what they do.

706
00:49:55,811 --> 00:49:57,411
Sure, that would be really cool, right?

707
00:49:57,411 --> 00:49:59,391
That would be really cool, but that is not a blockchain.

708
00:49:59,992 --> 00:50:02,311
You know, or, hey, we're going to do supply chain,

709
00:50:02,411 --> 00:50:06,071
and, you know, the bucket of Coca-Cola is going to go on here and there.

710
00:50:06,532 --> 00:50:10,211
That's like not a blockchain.

711
00:50:10,831 --> 00:50:13,891
That's just a better QR code, right?

712
00:50:13,891 --> 00:50:16,331
That's a centralized database, just like what you said.

713
00:50:16,331 --> 00:50:18,271
And most things need that.

714
00:50:19,291 --> 00:50:23,651
But there are things that would be really great, right?

715
00:50:23,691 --> 00:50:27,052
Like what about certificate of authenticity?

716
00:50:27,871 --> 00:50:30,411
You know, I've got the Mickey Mouse baseball.

717
00:50:30,691 --> 00:50:33,951
And instead of the little piece of paper, I can also have the piece of paper too.

718
00:50:34,032 --> 00:50:36,171
But I have something that represents that.

719
00:50:36,251 --> 00:50:38,852
Something that can't be copied, can't be whatever.

720
00:50:39,032 --> 00:50:42,151
And if I lose that, tough shit, okay?

721
00:50:42,271 --> 00:50:45,091
Because it's not my medical records and it's not the deed to my home.

722
00:50:45,431 --> 00:50:47,012
But fuck, you know what I mean?

723
00:50:47,071 --> 00:50:48,012
Like I need that.

724
00:50:48,071 --> 00:50:48,911
I'm not going to lose it.

725
00:50:48,911 --> 00:50:54,091
So there are certain things that are kind of maybe interesting to think about.

726
00:50:54,591 --> 00:51:03,411
And I think that the tokenizing of the stocks, as long as it's a derivative and it's tracked properly and however they're auditing it and whatever they're doing, I think that's cool.

727
00:51:03,811 --> 00:51:05,891
I don't know why stocks don't trade 24-7.

728
00:51:06,131 --> 00:51:12,512
If you ask anybody who's over 55 or 60 years old on Wall Street that's been around, they will tell you they hate this.

729
00:51:12,711 --> 00:51:14,791
They do not want a 24-7 market.

730
00:51:14,791 --> 00:51:17,411
They want things exactly the way that they are right now.

731
00:51:17,411 --> 00:51:21,671
it's 930 to four and holidays are off and Juneteenth is off and we're inventing new holidays.

732
00:51:22,131 --> 00:51:27,391
They want it that way. And people just don't. I mean, it's going to be dead. I mean,

733
00:51:27,671 --> 00:51:31,911
you know, and not just degen traders. It's just the world is a news driven market. Things are

734
00:51:31,911 --> 00:51:37,352
happening all the time. And you should be able to hedge or get in and out of a position overnight

735
00:51:37,352 --> 00:51:42,532
at 6 p.m. on a Sunday if something happens. So that type of tokenization, I think, is good.

736
00:51:42,532 --> 00:51:50,251
And it's a token that represents something, but it's not like if I lose the tokenized Tesla shares.

737
00:51:50,371 --> 00:51:52,052
I don't have an opportunity to lose it.

738
00:51:52,251 --> 00:51:56,171
There's no self-custody of the tokenization of my Tesla shares.

739
00:51:56,731 --> 00:52:01,532
It's just a way to actually create sort of a new market.

740
00:52:01,951 --> 00:52:04,532
And I think that that's cool with a lot of these private market investments.

741
00:52:04,532 --> 00:52:18,911
If I was going out and raising a fund, and if I was finding an investor for $100,000 and that person was a Bitcoiner, you know when you invest in a venture fund, you're looking at years with very, very limited liquidity options.

742
00:52:18,911 --> 00:52:29,411
And to be able to bring some of this tokenization efficiency to the LPGP venture markets to where, hey, you invested $100K now.

743
00:52:29,992 --> 00:52:32,211
Seven months later, something happens in your life.

744
00:52:32,271 --> 00:52:38,171
There's a book value, and you have a buyer who wants to give you $140K, I don't know, with whatever.

745
00:52:38,512 --> 00:52:43,271
You should be able to get in and out of that position and access some of that liquidity.

746
00:52:43,271 --> 00:52:46,131
And that's the type of tokenization that I'm excited about.

747
00:52:46,131 --> 00:52:52,891
And it has nothing to do with mnemonic seed phrases and cold storage and whatever.

748
00:52:53,391 --> 00:53:02,911
That's what I was kind of getting at because like what you're describing there, it's like, yeah, it makes sense that these things you should be able to create liquid markets for like any investable vehicle.

749
00:53:02,911 --> 00:53:06,911
Right. But you don't need to have it doesn't need to be on the blockchain.

750
00:53:06,911 --> 00:53:16,171
Like you just need literally like – you wouldn't necessarily want it to be either as you said because it's like you don't want to lose your private key and then that investment is just like locked out forever.

751
00:53:16,291 --> 00:53:16,811
It's like no, no, no.

752
00:53:17,271 --> 00:53:28,671
What you want is just a much more efficient like centralized market structure for these types of things that is actually operating like everything else does in the 21st century, not like everything did in the 20th century.

753
00:53:28,671 --> 00:53:29,751
Like that's the thing.

754
00:53:29,871 --> 00:53:31,552
But these – I mean like it's insane.

755
00:53:31,552 --> 00:53:41,071
And just as it relates, like even just like banks, like it's just ridiculous that like, oh, you sorry, you submitted your wire transfer, you know, after close of business today.

756
00:53:41,071 --> 00:53:46,291
So you're gonna have to wait till we wake up and get into like, it's insane how archaic so much of this stuff is.

757
00:53:46,291 --> 00:53:47,831
Like, I'm so glad that Bitcoin exists.

758
00:53:47,831 --> 00:53:59,211
Thank God for Bitcoin, because every time I have to interact with the fiat system in any meaningful way, which is actually quite often still, it's like every time I'm just like, oh, my God, this is just like pulling teeth to get anything done.

759
00:53:59,211 --> 00:54:05,231
And like I want to be able to make transactions at any given time without needing somebody to approve this or whatever.

760
00:54:05,911 --> 00:54:13,311
And so, yeah, I wanted to push on that a little bit because I think that idea of like put it on the block, like you're not saying tokenize it on the blockchain.

761
00:54:13,691 --> 00:54:21,711
You're saying, no, like just create a 24-7 market for this and a liquidity pool that doesn't have anything to do with putting it, quote, on the blockchain.

762
00:54:22,331 --> 00:54:22,631
Fair?

763
00:54:22,631 --> 00:54:34,331
Yeah. And when you lose Bitcoin and I've lost Bitcoin, sadly, not due to an exchange hack or something else, which I've lost plenty of Bitcoin that way as well.

764
00:54:34,331 --> 00:54:42,032
However, you know, just losing access to a wallet. OK, that is so unfortunate. OK.

765
00:54:42,032 --> 00:54:57,411
And when you think about the social engineering things that happen with SIM swapping, okay, you should be able to have a private key for your telephone number that is only you.

766
00:54:57,591 --> 00:54:58,771
There's no other copy.

767
00:54:59,231 --> 00:55:00,231
Okay, that is yours.

768
00:55:00,331 --> 00:55:09,211
And when you move that from Verizon to T-Mobile or to whatever you do and you prove ownership, okay, that could just end all of it.

769
00:55:09,211 --> 00:55:11,711
But you know what would be the downside?

770
00:55:12,032 --> 00:55:17,811
is that if you lose that, you will lose access to your phone number, or you will just never be able

771
00:55:17,811 --> 00:55:22,352
to move it. You will be a Verizon customer forever, because you can't move it. Okay.

772
00:55:22,631 --> 00:55:26,651
And that's like, kind of not that bad. You know, if you think about it, like, is that really the

773
00:55:26,651 --> 00:55:32,811
end of the world? Like, it stops so much crime. It stops so many people, right, from from doing

774
00:55:32,811 --> 00:55:38,071
terrible things, but it comes with risk, right? And that's Bitcoin as well. You know, you hear

775
00:55:38,071 --> 00:55:44,951
sovereign individual is everything they preach forever. But hey, if you lose it, it's gone.

776
00:55:45,552 --> 00:55:51,151
And for some reason, I think I don't know why a lot more of that hasn't happened. People need to

777
00:55:51,151 --> 00:55:54,791
just accept those risks. So I think those type of innovations are coming.

778
00:55:56,852 --> 00:56:03,631
I want to zoom out a little bit and just talk like more broadly about adoption and just market

779
00:56:03,631 --> 00:56:09,611
cycles because it feels like in my mind, and I haven't been through a lot of Bitcoin cycles,

780
00:56:09,611 --> 00:56:14,891
I got it in 2020 after I think I've ignored Bitcoin for longer than I've been in Bitcoin.

781
00:56:15,651 --> 00:56:18,271
In terms of the first time I heard about it to them when I finally started buying,

782
00:56:18,391 --> 00:56:21,852
that period is longer than the period that I've been stacking, which kills me,

783
00:56:21,931 --> 00:56:28,552
but it is what it is. We all get it at the price we deserve. But it feels like from my limited

784
00:56:28,552 --> 00:56:34,891
experience here that we're at this place right now where we've been like Bitcoin's been kind of

785
00:56:34,891 --> 00:56:39,271
a stable coin, relatively speaking for, for a little while. Like it's, it had a, it had an

786
00:56:39,271 --> 00:56:44,131
incredible run up, right. And, you know, to breaking over a hundred K and then since then,

787
00:56:44,131 --> 00:56:47,751
it's, you know, people have been somehow getting bored with the Bitcoin price action, even though

788
00:56:47,751 --> 00:56:52,311
it's above a hundred K or, you know, you're hearing Bitcoin crashes to 109,000, like insane,

789
00:56:52,532 --> 00:56:57,371
insane things to even say out loud. Where do you think we're at in terms of the cycles? Are you

790
00:56:57,371 --> 00:57:02,052
somebody who believes that four-year cycles are really important in Bitcoin, that the halving

791
00:57:02,052 --> 00:57:07,811
cycles are really important in Bitcoin? Are you more in the liquidity cycles? This is actually not

792
00:57:07,811 --> 00:57:13,411
to do with the halving as much. It's to do with just macro liquidity cycles. Is this time different

793
00:57:13,411 --> 00:57:19,492
from a cycle perspective? Where are you at right now? What's your thesis as we go into this October

794
00:57:19,492 --> 00:57:22,911
where things seem to be kicking off with a bang already in the first couple of days?

795
00:57:23,191 --> 00:57:25,151
How are you looking at this? How are you digesting it?

796
00:57:25,151 --> 00:57:31,552
man that's a ton of questions walker i know i like to warm up on you so

797
00:57:31,552 --> 00:57:40,492
you know if you go to a traditional wall street firm anyone bond trader normal person uh bitcoin

798
00:57:40,492 --> 00:57:48,091
going from 120 down to 109 in like i mean a couple days right i mean sometimes you look at an hourly

799
00:57:48,091 --> 00:57:53,852
chart or a daily chart of bitcoin and you're like what the fuck you know i mean i dropped four grand

800
00:57:53,852 --> 00:57:58,872
in an hour, you know, and those type of moves, when you measure it on a percentage basis,

801
00:57:58,872 --> 00:58:05,231
there's nothing stable about that. Like that would scare the crap out of any traditional,

802
00:58:05,751 --> 00:58:12,611
any traditional, it just, you don't get moves like that. Yeah. With some high flying, you know,

803
00:58:12,711 --> 00:58:17,651
low cap stocks and biotech, sometimes you get big moves to the upside and things like that,

804
00:58:17,651 --> 00:58:38,512
But those are really big moves. And I think that it's been less volatile than, say, in the past, right? Are we going to have an 80% drop down to your point about previous cycles and what are we going to see this cycle? I don't think that. But every asset in the world goes into a bear market except government spending, right? That's the only bull market. It's just going to go up forever.

805
00:58:38,512 --> 00:58:48,191
But every asset in the world, whatever it is, everything hits a bear market at some point in time, whether it's tech stocks, real estate, anything.

806
00:58:48,331 --> 00:58:51,091
We were talking about markets earlier in the psychology of it.

807
00:58:51,271 --> 00:58:55,631
And, you know, after you've been around for a while and just kind of followed it, it's kind of fun to watch.

808
00:58:55,771 --> 00:59:03,771
It's fun to watch when the real estate market is hot and everything is coming in over the asking price, you know, or when there's flooded with inventory and it's a buyer's market.

809
00:59:04,431 --> 00:59:06,051
Bitcoin will have the same thing.

810
00:59:06,051 --> 00:59:09,992
The question is, this time around, will it be as deep as a correction?

811
00:59:10,211 --> 00:59:11,331
And I don't think so.

812
00:59:11,852 --> 00:59:16,031
Remember, NASDAQ dropped 70-plus percent with the dot-com.

813
00:59:16,151 --> 00:59:20,831
And you had companies that were just adding dot-com to their name and just going up.

814
00:59:20,971 --> 00:59:24,392
I don't think we're in that type of a world with the Bitcoin treasury companies.

815
00:59:24,951 --> 00:59:33,892
But I don't know if we're going to have quite as bad of a correction as we had before this time around.

816
00:59:33,892 --> 00:59:35,611
Because I just believe that there's too many buyers.

817
00:59:35,611 --> 00:59:52,512
I mean, I just think there's too many people on the sidelines. I mean, Bitcoin is hitting an escape velocity, whether it's Saudi princes and corporations or, you know, Aunt Mary and Uncle Bob, however they're buying it through their ETFs or whatever they're doing. We're hitting that escape velocity. There's just too many buyers.

818
00:59:52,512 --> 00:59:58,311
OK, but however, is there going to be a catalyst, a catalyst for it?

819
00:59:58,431 --> 00:59:59,971
Now, you remember the last cycle.

820
01:00:00,352 --> 01:00:01,571
You remember FTX.

821
01:00:01,671 --> 01:00:02,711
You remember BlockFi.

822
01:00:02,931 --> 01:00:04,311
You remember all these things that happened.

823
01:00:04,431 --> 01:00:05,512
I remembered Mt. Gox.

824
01:00:05,551 --> 01:00:08,791
I still have a valid Mt. Gox claim that I haven't been paid.

825
01:00:09,131 --> 01:00:11,251
OK, so you have catalysts.

826
01:00:11,251 --> 01:00:12,831
You have catalysts for all these things.

827
01:00:12,892 --> 01:00:15,971
You have New York Attorney General going after Tether.

828
01:00:16,031 --> 01:00:18,892
You have events that kind of that cause it.

829
01:00:18,892 --> 01:00:25,411
So if you're kind of thinking in the future, not that you want to do porn into it, right, because it's up to the right forever, right?

830
01:00:25,571 --> 01:00:26,471
We're all good.

831
01:00:26,872 --> 01:00:27,711
We're going up.

832
01:00:27,771 --> 01:00:28,471
It's Uptober.

833
01:00:28,631 --> 01:00:29,392
It's Moonvember.

834
01:00:29,531 --> 01:00:30,352
It's all that stuff.

835
01:00:31,651 --> 01:00:33,872
What could be a catalyst this time around?

836
01:00:34,691 --> 01:00:38,911
Do you think that an issue may be with, I don't know, Coinbase Custody.

837
01:00:39,071 --> 01:00:46,131
I think they have nine of at least almost all the Bitcoin ETFs and so much of a honeypot with Coinbase Custody.

838
01:00:46,131 --> 01:00:47,512
I'm just I don't know anything.

839
01:00:47,512 --> 01:00:54,331
I'm just I'm making shit up we're sitting here talking bsing right could that cause something

840
01:00:54,331 --> 01:00:59,111
what what about god forbid right it's not going to happen but I'm just I'm coming up with things

841
01:00:59,111 --> 01:01:06,031
right it's fiction what about North Korea for some some reason hacking micro strategies bitcoin

842
01:01:06,031 --> 01:01:13,431
and you know the U.S. government having to get involved and backstop micro strategy investors

843
01:01:13,431 --> 01:01:24,797
with dollars and then the U government has to try and retrieve that Bitcoin from North Korea What does that signal what does that do to the market

844
01:01:25,177 --> 01:01:30,557
And by the way, when the U.S. government gets that Bitcoin back from North Korea, they're going to keep it because now it was part of that whole hack.

845
01:01:31,557 --> 01:01:36,837
That's a 6102 covertly in this future.

846
01:01:36,837 --> 01:01:42,537
So you can go down all kinds of sci-fi kind of weird things, but what's going to be the catalyst that busts it?

847
01:01:42,537 --> 01:01:47,217
Like these Bitcoin treasury companies, like they're going to sell, right?

848
01:01:47,297 --> 01:01:50,517
I mean, eventually you have to manage your risk.

849
01:01:50,617 --> 01:01:51,457
You have to pay bills.

850
01:01:52,217 --> 01:01:54,377
There's a time to scale into Bitcoin.

851
01:01:54,557 --> 01:01:56,737
There's a DCA in and then there's the DCA out.

852
01:01:56,997 --> 01:01:58,557
Nobody talks to the DCA out.

853
01:01:58,557 --> 01:02:07,597
If we're at 180,000 Bitcoin price, is there anything wrong with setting a DCA out to pay some bills every week?

854
01:02:07,977 --> 01:02:12,017
And just kind of – I just – I don't see that crashing the market.

855
01:02:12,537 --> 01:02:18,477
But there just there has to be a catalyst for this next wave down.

856
01:02:18,977 --> 01:02:19,977
Is it World War III?

857
01:02:20,617 --> 01:02:22,597
Is it China and Russia versus the world?

858
01:02:22,717 --> 01:02:23,597
Is there something there?

859
01:02:23,857 --> 01:02:23,997
Right?

860
01:02:24,037 --> 01:02:25,337
Because Bitcoin does not like war.

861
01:02:25,777 --> 01:02:26,437
It should.

862
01:02:26,857 --> 01:02:28,437
It should love war, but it doesn't.

863
01:02:28,977 --> 01:02:30,737
Is it the cyber threats?

864
01:02:30,817 --> 01:02:31,797
They're all conditioning us.

865
01:02:31,837 --> 01:02:34,677
Everything you watch on TV, right, is all about the cyber threat.

866
01:02:34,737 --> 01:02:35,337
The cyber threat.

867
01:02:35,417 --> 01:02:36,097
The Internet's down.

868
01:02:36,177 --> 01:02:36,797
Everything's down.

869
01:02:36,937 --> 01:02:38,257
Teslas are crashing into each other.

870
01:02:38,337 --> 01:02:38,917
No ATMs.

871
01:02:39,457 --> 01:02:40,697
That's not going to be good for Bitcoin.

872
01:02:41,017 --> 01:02:42,297
You're going to have bigger problems, right?

873
01:02:42,297 --> 01:02:45,137
We're going to have bigger problems than Bitcoin at that point in time.

874
01:02:45,357 --> 01:02:47,237
But what could be the catalyst?

875
01:02:47,417 --> 01:02:53,797
I don't think that we're going to have quite as deep, but it all depends on the catalyst to me.

876
01:02:54,017 --> 01:02:55,577
I mean, the four-year cycle, I think we have time.

877
01:02:55,717 --> 01:02:57,137
And this four-year cycle broke it.

878
01:02:57,377 --> 01:02:59,377
Remember, we made a new all-time high before the halving.

879
01:02:59,437 --> 01:03:00,437
That never happened before.

880
01:03:01,017 --> 01:03:03,297
So I don't know.

881
01:03:05,337 --> 01:03:07,377
It's like, yeah, nobody has a crystal ball, right?

882
01:03:07,577 --> 01:03:10,457
But it's fun to speculate on this.

883
01:03:10,457 --> 01:03:20,577
And we are entering this time of kind of, I mean, I suppose everyone probably thinks that the time that they're living through is full of unprecedented turmoil and change.

884
01:03:20,697 --> 01:03:22,817
Maybe that's just a part of being human.

885
01:03:23,177 --> 01:03:26,517
But boy, there seems to be a lot of stuff converging right now.

886
01:03:27,217 --> 01:03:28,697
And it'll be interesting.

887
01:03:28,857 --> 01:03:38,997
I guess the big question is, we know Bitcoin will probably have a significant pullback at some point just because there's still so many whales out there with amounts of Bitcoin that I can't even fathom.

888
01:03:38,997 --> 01:03:40,657
Thousands and thousands of Bitcoin.

889
01:03:41,137 --> 01:03:45,237
We saw one of these whales unloading what was like 80,000 Bitcoin.

890
01:03:45,737 --> 01:03:47,697
I mean like what?

891
01:03:48,237 --> 01:03:50,477
Like that just – like that's insane.

892
01:03:50,637 --> 01:03:52,737
You know, a couple other whales with a few tens of thousands.

893
01:03:53,417 --> 01:03:54,477
Like that's nuts.

894
01:03:54,677 --> 01:03:58,157
And actually the market pretty much soaked that up, right?

895
01:03:58,697 --> 01:04:03,377
Like that's an incredible thing too because we do have a ton of buy-side demand obviously.

896
01:04:03,377 --> 01:04:09,977
but there those whales are out there and they can uh they can shift large large amounts of

897
01:04:09,977 --> 01:04:14,557
capital very quickly so it'll be interesting to see what happens i'm uh you know as for me it's

898
01:04:14,557 --> 01:04:19,537
like i'm gonna keep dollar cost averaging i'm gonna when bitcoin takes a little bit of a dip

899
01:04:19,537 --> 01:04:24,757
i do a couple smash buys there and uh yeah then you know just keep trying to podcast and create

900
01:04:24,757 --> 01:04:30,317
value and uh that's the that's the playbook and hang out with your amazing fantastic wife and raise

901
01:04:30,317 --> 01:04:32,317
your beautiful son and love life.

902
01:04:32,317 --> 01:04:33,357
Touch grass, you know?

903
01:04:33,417 --> 01:04:34,617
Touch grass, man.

904
01:04:35,177 --> 01:04:36,357
Just, yeah, live life.

905
01:04:36,457 --> 01:04:37,877
Go hang out at some Bitcoin conferences

906
01:04:37,877 --> 01:04:39,557
and just have a good time with it.

907
01:04:40,317 --> 01:04:42,297
One thing I wanted to talk to you about also,

908
01:04:42,297 --> 01:04:44,717
this is kind of going back to a more,

909
01:04:44,837 --> 01:04:46,377
let's say, technical side,

910
01:04:46,517 --> 01:04:48,897
as it relates to the Lightning Network specifically.

911
01:04:49,437 --> 01:04:50,517
I've seen a lot of stuff recently,

912
01:04:50,657 --> 01:04:51,297
and not just recently,

913
01:04:51,397 --> 01:04:52,517
but generally it just seems to be

914
01:04:52,517 --> 01:04:53,657
popping up more recently,

915
01:04:54,477 --> 01:04:55,417
about people talking about,

916
01:04:55,537 --> 01:04:56,897
okay, like the Lightning Network,

917
01:04:56,897 --> 01:05:03,257
is like it really only works in a meaningful way from a custodial standpoint. I've seen this

918
01:05:03,257 --> 01:05:07,657
argument being made a lot. Obviously, a lot of the companies that you are investing in, they're

919
01:05:07,657 --> 01:05:13,117
either providing some sort of custodial lightning service or utilizing custodial services. Is that

920
01:05:13,117 --> 01:05:16,857
where you're at too? Like for you, and you mentioned some of these other protocols like

921
01:05:16,857 --> 01:05:23,817
ARK, these other layers. How are you looking at this in terms of is the lightning network something

922
01:05:23,817 --> 01:05:29,597
that you think is really better geared towards these custodial type services?

923
01:05:29,777 --> 01:05:32,757
Like that's where you're, you know, it's obviously where you're going to get the best user experience

924
01:05:32,757 --> 01:05:38,597
because using a custodial service that has massive fat channels open with other custodial services

925
01:05:38,597 --> 01:05:41,517
is going to like, you're going to have more liquidity, right?

926
01:05:41,517 --> 01:05:43,217
Than if you're opening your own channels.

927
01:05:43,217 --> 01:05:45,177
Like I know this from having my own channels open.

928
01:05:46,137 --> 01:05:47,337
What's your read on that?

929
01:05:47,397 --> 01:05:50,157
Does that at all impact like the investment thesis?

930
01:05:50,157 --> 01:05:58,197
Has, quote, Lightning failed if it doesn't – if it's primarily used custodially or is that irrelevant in your opinion?

931
01:05:59,417 --> 01:06:00,297
Completely irrelevant.

932
01:06:00,937 --> 01:06:03,717
But you have all these – like it would be a great infographic.

933
01:06:04,077 --> 01:06:06,797
You have all these clusters of people.

934
01:06:07,157 --> 01:06:12,017
You have some that will say self-custodial Lightning, it's the only way.

935
01:06:12,097 --> 01:06:13,617
It's easy and it works perfectly.

936
01:06:13,617 --> 01:06:21,057
And I just tested actually every Bitcoin Lightning wallet that I could probably about a month and a half ago.

937
01:06:21,157 --> 01:06:22,317
I spent an entire weekend.

938
01:06:22,717 --> 01:06:24,197
I did so much testing.

939
01:06:24,557 --> 01:06:31,357
And every non-custodial wallet had failed payments, every single one, every one.

940
01:06:31,437 --> 01:06:32,157
And it's nothing wrong.

941
01:06:32,237 --> 01:06:33,797
It's just it's not easy.

942
01:06:33,937 --> 01:06:37,497
And I can open channels and I can pay the fees and I can do whatever they want.

943
01:06:37,557 --> 01:06:41,097
And no matter what I seem to do, there's failed payments.

944
01:06:41,097 --> 01:06:47,777
And with the custodial wallets, something like Speed or Blink, I never have a failed payment.

945
01:06:48,617 --> 01:06:49,237
Maybe ever.

946
01:06:49,557 --> 01:06:51,957
I mean, and I'm talking beefy payments, man.

947
01:06:52,157 --> 01:06:57,897
You know, 5 million sats, 6 million sats and not having a failed payment.

948
01:06:58,557 --> 01:06:59,497
That's wild.

949
01:07:00,177 --> 01:07:04,417
So there are people, and I'm not saying that it's broken to each his own.

950
01:07:04,477 --> 01:07:08,737
And by the way, the non-custodial Lightning wallets are crazy expensive to use.

951
01:07:08,737 --> 01:07:15,897
You know, the Bitcoin wallets in general have upped their fees all the way around and good for them if they can get it.

952
01:07:16,077 --> 01:07:21,217
But even someone like River to make a lightning transaction, I mean, they'll charge you 35 cents, 40 cents.

953
01:07:21,457 --> 01:07:22,717
That's kind of crazy.

954
01:07:23,297 --> 01:07:23,677
You know what I mean?

955
01:07:23,697 --> 01:07:29,497
It's kind of crazy to pay 40 cents for a thousand dollar lightning network transaction.

956
01:07:29,877 --> 01:07:31,957
Like, you know, and they have to make money and they're doing what they're doing.

957
01:07:31,997 --> 01:07:34,137
But like, that's that's a lot.

958
01:07:34,317 --> 01:07:37,857
And when you use the non-custodial, the fees are a lot, man.

959
01:07:37,857 --> 01:07:38,817
They are way higher.

960
01:07:38,957 --> 01:07:43,157
I A, B tested all of them as opposed to something like speed or blink where, what is it?

961
01:07:43,197 --> 01:07:44,137
Like 13 sats.

962
01:07:44,537 --> 01:07:47,077
It was like nothing, you know?

963
01:07:47,177 --> 01:07:52,217
So there's definitely pros and cons and there's pros and cons to everything, right?

964
01:07:52,237 --> 01:07:55,577
Like if I have money in a bank account, that's not mine.

965
01:07:55,697 --> 01:07:57,617
I can like use Venmo.

966
01:07:57,837 --> 01:08:00,437
I can use some layer two fiat system, right?

967
01:08:00,437 --> 01:08:04,617
Because I'm there and I have a certain amount of risk and then I can have a thousand bucks

968
01:08:04,617 --> 01:08:07,537
in my pocket and someone can beat the shit out of me on the A train.

969
01:08:07,857 --> 01:08:08,897
And I can lose that, right?

970
01:08:08,917 --> 01:08:10,457
And there's other kinds of risks.

971
01:08:10,897 --> 01:08:13,417
So I don't think that it's winner take all.

972
01:08:13,817 --> 01:08:21,377
I don't think that the average person will be able to, with right now currently the way that it's set up,

973
01:08:21,377 --> 01:08:25,157
I don't think the average person is going to be able to manage it on custodial wallet.

974
01:08:26,077 --> 01:08:29,657
And nor do I think that the average person even really cares.

975
01:08:30,537 --> 01:08:32,777
I mean, do people really care?

976
01:08:33,537 --> 01:08:34,457
That's the question.

977
01:08:34,457 --> 01:08:49,717
I don't like sending payments into Strike because at the end of the year, you get a 1099 div or whatever, a 1099B from Strike that basically says, hey, you deposited money, you sent money, and then you have to report a cost basis.

978
01:08:49,717 --> 01:08:52,397
So I would prefer to just avoid that.

979
01:08:53,417 --> 01:09:04,497
But can you sleep at night, you know, if you have a few dollars on some of these exchanges that have perfect lightning UI UX experiences?

980
01:09:04,657 --> 01:09:05,457
I think so.

981
01:09:06,657 --> 01:09:08,717
Until it really gets to a point where it's...

982
01:09:09,257 --> 01:09:10,537
And then you look at Aqua, right?

983
01:09:10,617 --> 01:09:12,057
Aqua is going the opposite route.

984
01:09:12,137 --> 01:09:14,497
They're really doing everything with Liquid.

985
01:09:14,497 --> 01:09:19,817
I think Misty Breeze, the new Misty Breeze wallet is the same way.

986
01:09:20,237 --> 01:09:20,857
But I don't know.

987
01:09:20,877 --> 01:09:21,677
What do you think, man?

988
01:09:22,657 --> 01:09:25,697
I mean, personally, it's like everything has tradeoffs, right?

989
01:09:26,277 --> 01:09:28,917
Like you, you know, you use Bitcoin.

990
01:09:29,077 --> 01:09:35,997
If you want to have unconfiscatable, unfuckable money, you use Bitcoin layer one.

991
01:09:36,117 --> 01:09:40,237
If you want to send really large amounts of money, you use Bitcoin layer one.

992
01:09:40,237 --> 01:09:49,417
If you want to store that money for a long period of time and sleep soundly at night, knowing that nobody is going to rug pull you, you use Bitcoin layer one.

993
01:09:50,137 --> 01:09:54,717
When I use Bitcoin layer twos, I don't care as much.

994
01:09:54,797 --> 01:10:00,957
Like I have the first lightning node I set up was a the Raspi Blitz node.

995
01:10:00,957 --> 01:10:05,937
Like right when I started getting into Bitcoin, like I was, you know, doing command line and stuff felt really cool.

996
01:10:06,297 --> 01:10:08,137
But it's tricky. Right.

997
01:10:08,137 --> 01:10:12,317
And obviously there it's gotten, there's a lot of easier implementations to do that.

998
01:10:12,377 --> 01:10:15,877
Now, you know, I have a, I have various things.

999
01:10:15,937 --> 01:10:17,957
I use a Albie hub for one of them.

1000
01:10:17,957 --> 01:10:22,637
It's still like, you know, I'm paying them like a monthly fee and somehow I still have

1001
01:10:22,637 --> 01:10:25,237
to still have to manage my liquidity on there, which is annoying.

1002
01:10:25,237 --> 01:10:26,797
And channels are getting closed and whatnot.

1003
01:10:26,797 --> 01:10:30,657
And I'm like, this is a tear, but like, I just, I just want to use a custodial thing.

1004
01:10:30,657 --> 01:10:32,557
Cause I'm not using this for massive amounts.

1005
01:10:32,557 --> 01:10:36,217
I'm literally using this for like zaps on Noster for paying for stuff.

1006
01:10:36,217 --> 01:10:39,557
if I'm ordering something online and I want to pay in Bitcoin for using it at

1007
01:10:39,557 --> 01:10:42,837
conferences. So I'm not putting any super meaningful amount of money on there.

1008
01:10:42,857 --> 01:10:45,357
I'm putting a small amount. It's, you know, like, you know,

1009
01:10:45,357 --> 01:10:48,657
an amount that I would potentially carry in my, in my wallet that I'd be

1010
01:10:48,657 --> 01:10:51,457
comfortable, you know, if somebody, I don't know where the A train is,

1011
01:10:51,477 --> 01:10:54,217
but if somebody, you know, beats the shit out of me on the A train, um,

1012
01:10:54,917 --> 01:10:57,557
that that's what I, what I have it for. I do. I mean,

1013
01:10:57,557 --> 01:11:00,457
I love the user experience of Aqua. Aqua is super nice.

1014
01:11:00,557 --> 01:11:03,277
I use liquid a decent amount, um, for,

1015
01:11:03,477 --> 01:11:05,857
for various things because I think it, it works really well.

1016
01:11:06,217 --> 01:11:08,477
it's weird to me that more people don't use it.

1017
01:11:08,977 --> 01:11:10,417
Obviously that has its trade-offs too, right?

1018
01:11:10,437 --> 01:11:11,177
That's a federation.

1019
01:11:11,537 --> 01:11:12,677
That's it's a, and it's a different,

1020
01:11:12,777 --> 01:11:14,377
it's everything's a different trust model.

1021
01:11:14,377 --> 01:11:17,797
It's like, you've also got e-cash, you know, on, on, on cashew.

1022
01:11:18,137 --> 01:11:20,097
Like that's another different trust model.

1023
01:11:20,177 --> 01:11:23,277
That's another opportunity for you to potentially get rugged,

1024
01:11:23,337 --> 01:11:24,177
but you're making a trade-off

1025
01:11:24,177 --> 01:11:25,637
because you also get near perfect privacy.

1026
01:11:25,937 --> 01:11:28,277
And you've got in like offline payments,

1027
01:11:28,277 --> 01:11:30,477
you've got instant, you know, basically instant settlement.

1028
01:11:30,477 --> 01:11:31,637
Like it's really, really cool.

1029
01:11:31,677 --> 01:11:32,857
It works super, super well.

1030
01:11:32,857 --> 01:11:35,417
And it's so private, but there's trade-offs.

1031
01:11:35,417 --> 01:11:40,157
So for me, it's like it all comes down to what you need, right?

1032
01:11:40,697 --> 01:11:43,657
And it's like different tradeoffs for different purposes.

1033
01:11:44,017 --> 01:11:51,517
You always have the Bitcoin base layer to fall back on when you want to have something that is uncensorable, unconfiscatable, unfuckable.

1034
01:11:51,837 --> 01:11:53,457
That's what Bitcoin layer one is for.

1035
01:11:54,237 --> 01:12:02,917
For everything else, I'm willing to accept those tradeoffs because I'm not talking like I don't need the same things out of layer two that I need out of layer one Bitcoin.

1036
01:12:02,917 --> 01:12:04,717
Those are just they're different needs for me.

1037
01:12:05,417 --> 01:12:06,157
I am curious.

1038
01:12:06,257 --> 01:12:07,617
I want to ask you just to clarify.

1039
01:12:08,197 --> 01:12:14,237
So you said the custodial wallets that you were using were cheaper transaction fee-wise

1040
01:12:14,237 --> 01:12:18,097
or more expensive than the self-custodial, the non-custodial wallets you were using?

1041
01:12:18,557 --> 01:12:19,137
100%.

1042
01:12:19,137 --> 01:12:19,417
Or other way around?

1043
01:12:19,717 --> 01:12:25,137
No, 100% cheaper and actually in a lot of times like nearly free, maybe free.

1044
01:12:25,277 --> 01:12:31,717
If you use Speed Wallet and you make a Lightning transaction, there's a more than likely chance

1045
01:12:31,717 --> 01:12:34,837
that when you look at the fee after you send it, the fee will be zero.

1046
01:12:35,417 --> 01:12:37,557
Like many times it's zero, right?

1047
01:12:37,637 --> 01:12:41,057
If it's a small amount, it's a very small amount.

1048
01:12:41,057 --> 01:12:57,937
But when you send from River or Zeus or Phoenix or these other wallets, you're going to pay what I think, what seemed to me is a significant fee.

1049
01:12:58,877 --> 01:12:59,317
For Lightning.

1050
01:12:59,317 --> 01:13:00,637
For Lightning.

1051
01:13:00,797 --> 01:13:00,957
Right.

1052
01:13:01,037 --> 01:13:04,177
For Lightning, it's like nearly free, an instant, like $0.35.

1053
01:13:04,177 --> 01:13:09,617
cents you know one time it was like a dollar 10 uh and it was a lightning transaction but you know

1054
01:13:09,617 --> 01:13:15,337
again just what you're saying about like like on chain i mean when the menpool is empty you know

1055
01:13:15,337 --> 01:13:21,997
one sat per v bite i'll die on this hill um the thing is is like speed wallet for example

1056
01:13:21,997 --> 01:13:31,897
i i went to make a uh i mean sizable right like maybe a 0.2 deposit uh off of speed wallet and

1057
01:13:31,897 --> 01:13:40,137
the fee was fucking $200. I had to like wipe my eyes. So it's like I can use Speed Wallet Custodial

1058
01:13:40,137 --> 01:13:45,777
for nearly free, nearly free. And it's beautiful, wonderful experience. And then you go to make an

1059
01:13:45,777 --> 01:13:54,357
on-chain payment and they charge you 1%. So that's like, then it's like, you know, and that's,

1060
01:13:54,397 --> 01:13:58,817
that's truth. That's, that's the way that it is. And, you know, okay, I'll go back to using

1061
01:13:58,817 --> 01:14:00,937
Blockstream Green. I don't think it's called Blockstream Green

1062
01:14:00,937 --> 01:14:02,957
anymore, but that was the best mobile wallet for

1063
01:14:02,957 --> 01:14:04,757
on-chain was the Blockstream Green.

1064
01:14:04,757 --> 01:14:06,897
I think they rebranded it. I haven't used it in a little

1065
01:14:06,897 --> 01:14:08,977
while. But when you send from your

1066
01:14:08,977 --> 01:14:12,917
Trezor, or when you send from the hardware wallet

1067
01:14:12,917 --> 01:14:14,817
at home, you specify the fee.

1068
01:14:15,097 --> 01:14:16,397
The dynamic fee estimation,

1069
01:14:16,797 --> 01:14:18,637
one fee per byte. That's what I want to pay.

1070
01:14:18,717 --> 01:14:20,717
I'm a cheap son of a bitch. I'm going to pay

1071
01:14:20,717 --> 01:14:21,337
$200?

1072
01:14:22,437 --> 01:14:24,557
That's insane. That's worse than fiat.

1073
01:14:25,397 --> 01:14:26,177
You mentioned

1074
01:14:26,177 --> 01:14:28,577
River, but Rivers is

1075
01:14:28,577 --> 01:14:29,657
It's custodial, is it not?

1076
01:14:29,737 --> 01:14:31,597
I mean, you're talking about just using Lightning to transfer off?

1077
01:14:31,597 --> 01:14:34,097
Rivers is custodial, but the River is a business.

1078
01:14:35,077 --> 01:14:36,237
And, you know, every week we do our-

1079
01:14:36,237 --> 01:14:38,697
Okay, so you lumped it in with the non-custodial ones.

1080
01:14:38,757 --> 01:14:40,457
That's why I was just, I was clarifying.

1081
01:14:40,537 --> 01:14:41,397
So you're just saying those are,

1082
01:14:41,757 --> 01:14:43,477
the River one was on the expensive side

1083
01:14:43,477 --> 01:14:46,437
at the same level as some of the non-custodial ones.

1084
01:14:46,697 --> 01:14:49,217
Whereas some of these custodial options,

1085
01:14:49,257 --> 01:14:49,897
if you're doing Lightning,

1086
01:14:49,977 --> 01:14:51,897
they have these massive fat channels that are open.

1087
01:14:52,417 --> 01:14:54,377
The liquidity, like you sending a couple hundred bucks

1088
01:14:54,377 --> 01:14:56,977
through that one Bitcoin channel

1089
01:14:56,977 --> 01:14:57,997
doesn't even move the needle.

1090
01:14:57,997 --> 01:14:59,237
And so it's super cheap.

1091
01:14:59,437 --> 01:15:00,497
That's what you're getting at, right?

1092
01:15:00,997 --> 01:15:04,977
I'm getting at that, but I'm also getting at River used to be nearly free, right?

1093
01:15:05,057 --> 01:15:08,337
When they, like Uber, how Uber used to be, like, really cheap.

1094
01:15:08,837 --> 01:15:11,877
And now it's like, fucking, I pay more for the Uber than I did for the flight.

1095
01:15:12,257 --> 01:15:12,757
You know what I mean?

1096
01:15:12,797 --> 01:15:14,037
Like, that type of deal.

1097
01:15:14,397 --> 01:15:16,077
So, you know, and God bless River.

1098
01:15:16,177 --> 01:15:17,477
And they're an amazing company and all.

1099
01:15:17,557 --> 01:15:19,937
But, like, Lightning Ventures, we do our payroll every Friday.

1100
01:15:20,477 --> 01:15:21,697
Some people get paid in Bitcoin.

1101
01:15:22,137 --> 01:15:26,237
You know, we have our corporate account with River, which is great experience, love River.

1102
01:15:26,237 --> 01:15:29,357
But when I make those Lightning payments every week, I can't help but look.

1103
01:15:30,037 --> 01:15:41,517
If somebody's getting payroll and it costs me $1.30 to do a Lightning transaction for his payroll that week, it used to be free.

1104
01:15:41,657 --> 01:15:42,397
I mean, it used to be zero.

1105
01:15:42,517 --> 01:15:44,857
It would be free with something like Speed Wallet, right?

1106
01:15:45,017 --> 01:15:49,857
And then you go to Strike, and Strike gives you no fee for an on-chain withdrawal.

1107
01:15:49,857 --> 01:15:52,697
You know, it's free.

1108
01:15:52,817 --> 01:15:59,317
If you're willing to wait the 24-hour, like, no rush, whatever period, send it when you do the next batch, it's zero.

1109
01:15:59,577 --> 01:15:59,957
It's free.

1110
01:16:00,437 --> 01:16:05,477
So it's just all of these exchanges and things, they all have different flavors and they all have different features.

1111
01:16:07,837 --> 01:16:10,477
It's different strokes for different folks, right?

1112
01:16:11,337 --> 01:16:13,677
I mean, it is amazing that we have so many options.

1113
01:16:13,997 --> 01:16:14,977
We have so many options.

1114
01:16:14,977 --> 01:16:24,297
I've got a Lightning Wallet folder on my phone that's got like, I don't know, like 15 different ones in there that I've played around with like pretty much all of them, I think.

1115
01:16:24,497 --> 01:16:26,317
And it's cool to have options.

1116
01:16:26,557 --> 01:16:31,577
Like I've got my ones that are kind of my go-tos, but it's nice.

1117
01:16:31,737 --> 01:16:33,277
There's a ton of different ones popping up.

1118
01:16:33,357 --> 01:16:40,617
I think we'll start like – do you think we'll still see a lot more proliferation of different wallets and services around this?

1119
01:16:40,817 --> 01:16:43,017
Like are you guys looking at the ARK stuff at all too?

1120
01:16:43,017 --> 01:16:48,877
Is that something you think is going to be blended into a lot of these Lightning wallets that it'll just be like, so they'll be kind of dual purpose.

1121
01:16:48,997 --> 01:16:49,937
You'll have multiple options.

1122
01:16:50,077 --> 01:16:50,977
How do you see that happening?

1123
01:16:51,677 --> 01:16:55,777
I think they have a solution and they're going to be in Lugano.

1124
01:16:55,977 --> 01:16:58,417
There should be a pretty cool demo and news or whatever.

1125
01:16:58,517 --> 01:17:03,017
But I think they have a unified QR code that works.

1126
01:17:04,857 --> 01:17:10,117
But, you know, it's hard to just actually like it's hard to just keep up with everything going on in Bitcoin.

1127
01:17:10,117 --> 01:17:12,077
You know, things that are out there that everyone's using.

1128
01:17:12,337 --> 01:17:16,517
Start thinking about these new things that are kind of on the cutting edge.

1129
01:17:16,697 --> 01:17:18,797
But, I mean, I love that team and I love them.

1130
01:17:19,377 --> 01:17:23,217
But I'm also in the camp that, like, lightning works and it works great.

1131
01:17:23,837 --> 01:17:24,137
Okay?

1132
01:17:24,317 --> 01:17:25,537
I mean, there's all these different things.

1133
01:17:25,617 --> 01:17:33,277
There's a million ways to use it in an optimal way and suboptimal, depending on, like, what's important to you.

1134
01:17:33,977 --> 01:17:36,277
But I like my payments to go through, right?

1135
01:17:36,337 --> 01:17:37,837
But I also have a Start9 at home.

1136
01:17:38,377 --> 01:17:39,397
I have a Start9 at home.

1137
01:17:39,397 --> 01:17:52,417
And I just, it's just, I would rather just keep, just do the hardware wallet and not really do a complex multi-sig, you know.

1138
01:17:52,597 --> 01:17:54,997
And I just don't need that.

1139
01:17:55,077 --> 01:17:55,977
Like, it's just not for me.

1140
01:17:56,117 --> 01:18:03,397
But there's just so many options right now for people that it has to kind of just work magically.

1141
01:18:03,837 --> 01:18:09,077
You know, if you had to go into a command line to send an email, it just, it wouldn't work.

1142
01:18:09,397 --> 01:18:12,277
You know, I, so I think we're getting there.

1143
01:18:12,397 --> 01:18:18,717
I just think that it's a lot for a new person to come in and you don't want to get scared off with BIP whatever.

1144
01:18:18,717 --> 01:18:22,437
Do you think we're still pretty early on the UX side of things in terms of like what?

1145
01:18:22,437 --> 01:18:24,157
Oh, dude, big time.

1146
01:18:25,297 --> 01:18:26,537
Big time early.

1147
01:18:27,837 --> 01:18:30,237
I mean, it's, it's gotta, it's gotta be simple.

1148
01:18:30,817 --> 01:18:31,957
It's gotta be simplified.

1149
01:18:33,577 --> 01:18:39,057
And I think a lot of that's just like, you know, you've seen, like, I think that was a big thing that Aqua was pushing for, right?

1150
01:18:39,057 --> 01:18:43,777
with we brought up theirs earlier they were pushing for how do we make this like i think

1151
01:18:43,777 --> 01:18:47,157
what was their tagline something like the bitcoin wallet for your grandma like you know bring it

1152
01:18:47,157 --> 01:18:52,357
back to the old grandma like can can your grandma figure this out anything that's like a it's it's a

1153
01:18:52,357 --> 01:18:57,457
good goal especially on the payment side like grandma figuring out like self-custody and that

1154
01:18:57,457 --> 01:19:01,377
may be a little bit you know a little bit trickier but it's like maybe grandma doesn't need to you

1155
01:19:01,377 --> 01:19:06,797
know like i don't know i go back and forth on that um i want to be conscious of your time here

1156
01:19:06,797 --> 01:19:11,057
was, but was there anything we didn't get a chance to talk about with regard to either like the

1157
01:19:11,057 --> 01:19:15,837
investing you do your portfolio companies, anything like that? Um, well, I'll just remind

1158
01:19:15,837 --> 01:19:19,717
people again, if you're, you know, if you're still listening, go and check out a plan B week.

1159
01:19:19,717 --> 01:19:25,857
I was plan B week.com right plan. Yeah. Plan B week.com. If you want to get involved in this

1160
01:19:25,857 --> 01:19:31,637
pitch competition in Lugano, and if you are in Lugano, come say hello, uh, Carl and I'll be there.

1161
01:19:31,717 --> 01:19:36,517
Let's go have a beer. Uh, muz, we're going to need to have some beers, but yeah, anything else we,

1162
01:19:36,517 --> 01:19:42,757
we should cover. No, that's it. So if you're interested in learning about investing in Bitcoin

1163
01:19:42,757 --> 01:19:48,657
startups, you can get the skinny at LTNG.ventures. You can sign up the form there. We'll send you an

1164
01:19:48,657 --> 01:19:52,537
invite to join our group and all that good stuff. If you're working on something cool,

1165
01:19:52,977 --> 01:19:58,077
go ahead and fill out the form as a builder or founder, whatever. That's really cool too. Maybe

1166
01:19:58,077 --> 01:20:03,737
there's portfolio companies or something we can do to help you out in one way or another. And we

1167
01:20:03,737 --> 01:20:06,077
We also just launched thunder funder.com,

1168
01:20:06,157 --> 01:20:09,497
which is a reg CF equity crowdfunding portal.

1169
01:20:09,497 --> 01:20:11,877
So not like geyser where people are donating,

1170
01:20:11,877 --> 01:20:16,797
but a sort of retail investors that don't have to meet any kind of accreditation

1171
01:20:16,797 --> 01:20:18,377
for thunder funder.

1172
01:20:18,577 --> 01:20:22,317
And we are going to be firing up some really cool deals on there.

1173
01:20:22,417 --> 01:20:22,897
So that's it.

1174
01:20:22,957 --> 01:20:24,457
That's all I'm interested in and doing.

1175
01:20:25,497 --> 01:20:26,157
All right,

1176
01:20:26,217 --> 01:20:26,397
man.

1177
01:20:26,477 --> 01:20:26,897
Love it.

1178
01:20:27,197 --> 01:20:27,337
Well,

1179
01:20:27,377 --> 01:20:28,557
appreciate you coming on here.

1180
01:20:29,037 --> 01:20:30,397
Stoked to see you in Lugano.

1181
01:20:31,057 --> 01:20:31,717
And yeah,

1182
01:20:31,877 --> 01:20:32,617
until then,

1183
01:20:32,617 --> 01:20:35,057
let's keep playing with lightning wallets, huh?

1184
01:20:35,537 --> 01:20:36,317
You got it, man.

1185
01:20:37,157 --> 01:20:38,157
All right, take it easy, Muzz.

1186
01:20:38,537 --> 01:20:38,937
Thanks.

1187
01:20:46,017 --> 01:20:49,077
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode

1188
01:20:49,077 --> 01:20:50,717
of The Bitcoin Podcast.

1189
01:20:51,357 --> 01:20:53,737
Remember to subscribe to this podcast

1190
01:20:53,737 --> 01:20:55,297
wherever you're watching or listening

1191
01:20:55,297 --> 01:20:57,857
and share it with your friends, family,

1192
01:20:57,997 --> 01:20:59,617
and strangers on the internet.

1193
01:20:59,617 --> 01:21:06,297
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash Walker and this podcast at primal.net slash Titcoin.

1194
01:21:06,837 --> 01:21:13,297
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram

1195
01:21:13,297 --> 01:21:19,197
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1196
01:21:19,197 --> 01:21:25,337
slash at Walker America to get episodes emailed to you and head to bitcoinpodcast.net for

1197
01:21:25,337 --> 01:21:32,677
everything else. Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your

1198
01:21:32,677 --> 01:21:39,077
time listening to the Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.