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as a risk manager, you have to be constantly reassessing risk.

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You can't just pair it what was true 10 years ago.

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Right?

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And you kind of have to be constantly analyzing the current macroeconomic situation.

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And in the current macroeconomic situation, everything is risky.

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Stocks are risky.

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They're trading like altcoins right now, for the most part.

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Debt is piling up.

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And the debt servicing payments are reaching a trillion or have reached a trillion dollars.

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So like maybe you heard 10 years ago in some mainstream media article, Bitcoin is a risky

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asset.

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You can't just say that and pair it 10 years later.

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You have to look at the current situation and reassess.

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If you're not always reassessing, then what kind of a risk manager are you?

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But I don't need to say that anymore.

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I just say, well, BlackRock has an ETF now.

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What's your strategy with Bitcoin?

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Oh, you don't have one.

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That's a problem.

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You know, it's just an easier conversation to have.

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Greetings and salutations, my fellow Plebs.

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My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast.

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The Bitcoin block height is 829256 and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.

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Today's episode is Bitcoin Talk, where I talk with my guest about Bitcoin and whatever else

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comes up.

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Today, that guest is Samson Moe, aka Excellion, the CEO of Jan 3.

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I know you're excited to hear from Samson, so I'm not going to make you wait any longer.

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Do me a favor and subscribe to the Bitcoin podcast wherever you listen to or watch your

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podcasts.

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And if you're currently listening to this podcast on Apple or Spotify, consider trying

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out fountain.fm.

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You can send Bitcoin to your favorite podcasters and earn Bitcoin just for listening to this

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and other podcasts.

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And if you feel like it, give this show a five star rating.

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Or don't, Bitcoin doesn't care.

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If you're interested in sponsoring the Bitcoin podcast, head to bitcoinpodcast.net or hit

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me up on social media, primal.net slash walker for noster and at Walker America on X.

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Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk with Samson Moe.

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Thanks for coming on.

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I'm glad we got a chance to do this.

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It ends up working out well that we're able to do it kind of post ETF news dropping because

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now we're in this interesting limbo period.

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ETFs have been approved and now it seems like everybody kind of forgot about the halving

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that was always going to be coming up in a couple of months with all the hype around

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the ETF.

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So I think this is kind of a perfect time to zoom out a little bit on the larger Bitcoin

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narrative to talk, of course, about just what you have been focusing so much of your time

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and energy on, which is nation state adoption.

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And then to talk about whatever else comes up because this is an open format.

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But if it's good with you, I want to just kind of dive in with a very simple question

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that I like to open these things up with.

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And just to set the tone and you can take this any direction you want, but just who

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are you, Samson?

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And how did you get here today to be a guy who is orange-pilling nation states around

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the world?

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What was that journey for you?

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Good question.

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I'm just an ordinary guy that just kind of got plunked down into this Bitcoin space

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here.

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And I guess my background is game development.

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And that's kind of when I first learned about Bitcoin, I was a game developer building online

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games and it just kind of progressed from there.

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Like reading about Bitcoin and having built online worlds with economies, it kind of makes

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you understand and appreciate Bitcoin right away because we have to manage online worlds,

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whereas no one manages Bitcoin.

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And then that was my first epiphany about Bitcoin, like, wow, there's nobody behind

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the curtain driving this thing.

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It just kind of works and anybody can participate.

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So I guess that's how I got pulled into it.

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But I don't think it was my goal to kind of be doing what I'm doing now.

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I always just thought I'd make games and I'll make games until I die.

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But somehow fate kind of pushes you in different directions.

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And I guess now I'm orange-pilling nation states and doing aqua.

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So lots of interesting things.

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Yeah, all in a day's work, right?

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I was looking at the Jan3 website just in preparation for this call again.

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I hadn't looked at it for a little while.

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And I was looking at it and it said Jan3 is a Bitcoin technology company.

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And I liked that because you guys have just deployed aqua now live in production.

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It's available.

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You can go and download it on the App Store.

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And I think when you guys were first kicking up or kickstarting Jan3, at least from the

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outside looking in, it seemed like, OK, these guys are going around and talking to nation

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states.

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And I know I would see various comments on Twitter.

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What are they actually doing?

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What's the plan after you talk to them?

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How does that even work?

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And so now it seems like that plan is becoming much clearer, which is a technology, as a

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technology company, you're not just consulting them.

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You're providing solutions.

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You also in December just deployed a financial division, right?

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So I think that's a great place to start.

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And you give a little bit of the Jan3 story and what it is you guys are doing all over

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the world from the press releases I see.

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Yeah.

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So the higher level mission is to accelerate Bitcoin adoption or accelerate hyperbiccoinization.

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So getting more people into Bitcoin, helping countries and individuals transition into

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this new Bitcoin standard.

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So I agree.

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When we first launched Jan3, people are wondering, well, what are you guys doing?

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But we were building Aqua in the background and building up our team.

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So I guess the way to frame it is we do operate on a number of levels.

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At the top level, we're engaging with governments and politicians and regulators, just educating

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them and teaching them about why they should start implementing some sort of Bitcoin strategy.

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Also maybe mining and Bitcoin bonds and these types of financial instruments.

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And at the bottom level, we want to support the grassroots initiatives with a non-custodial

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wallet, which is Aqua.

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So we want to have a piece of the puzzle to help onboard the next couple billion people

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into Bitcoin.

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And this is a wallet that we think can be used in a number of ways.

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We've launched it, of course, now and anybody can download it.

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But we can also white label it too for countries that want to have their own Bitcoin wallet

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like El Salvador when they first implemented their Bitcoin strategy, they had their Chiva

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wallet.

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And I think the launch was not that optimal.

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But the other critique that they had was that this is a completely custodial solution and

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you can effectively monitor everything and see what everyone's doing and freeze people's

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funds if you wanted to.

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So I think what we can achieve with Aqua's design is give them a Bitcoin wallet that

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has other digital assets too, like USD stablecoin in the form of Tether.

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And this kind of allows you to have the best of both worlds.

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So you can have this government approved wallet that helps you onboard, give out Bitcoin

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to people if they do what El Salvador did.

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But then all your funds and all your assets are non-custodial too.

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So I think this is a piece of the puzzle.

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So everything we do kind of fits holistically into this whole accelerating hyperbiccoinization

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framework.

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And I think the other piece that you mentioned was Janssen Financial.

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So this is a new division.

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It's offering financial services.

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So we were thinking we're spending all this effort orange filling countries and central

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banks and telling them to buy Bitcoin.

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Why don't we have a division also helps them get the Bitcoin?

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So we have a number of partners and liquidity providers that take care of the back end on

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onboarding.

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But we're like the front end and we engage and help them to understand why and then we

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pass them through and help them to get the Bitcoin and then the rest is history, hopefully.

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Now I think that that's a I love how the approach has really kind of become more clear.

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Like you have the top down and you have the bottom up as well.

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And I guess you want to meet in the middle there so that you're not just saying, hey,

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country, country X, go ahead and adopt Bitcoin.

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It's going to be good for you.

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It's here are actually the tools that you can use both at the top level for acquiring

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that Bitcoin.

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If you want to put it in a some sort of sovereign treasury or the bottom up here are the tools

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that people actually need.

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And it's funny you mentioned Chivo because that was one of the things I've only been

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to El Salvador twice, both times were in 2022.

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And that was one of the big negative things that people mentioned when you talked to them

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was for for citizens, it was that, OK, this thing doesn't always exactly work that well,

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the swallow it.

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And for people who were maybe a little bit more knowledgeable who already knew about

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Bitcoin, whether they be citizens or people that were there working on various initiatives,

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the biggest drawback was, hey, this is custodial, this is kind of replicating some of the same

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problems that we're trying to get away from with Bitcoin.

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It's just OK, you can still be rugged by the government, but now they're just rugging your

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Bitcoin instead of rugging your fiat.

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So it's like it was not ideal.

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And I'm kind of I'm interested to know and I know some of this stuff is probably you're

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not able to maybe talk about it, but I'm really interested in no kind of let's maybe we can

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role play.

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I will be the the president or the prime minister of Libertaria, let's say.

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I would love to know what is your elevator pitch to these, you know, to these either

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heads of state or senators or whoever you're able to get in the room with.

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How do you start that conversation knowing that a lot of these people have very, very

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tight schedules?

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I'm sure it's hard to even get a meeting, get in the door.

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How do you deliver that message to these people?

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Yeah, that's a good question.

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So what was the name of your fictional country again?

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Libertaria.

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OK, so the question really is, does Libertaria have what problems do you have there?

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What's your energy mix?

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Do you have untapped energy reserves?

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So these are the kind of questions that we need to do our research on before.

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And I think that informs our approach on what we will deliver as the elevator pitch.

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So people ask all the time, like, well, what is your what is the playbook?

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There is no one playbook that fits every country because every country is very unique and also

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the political landscape is very unique too.

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So while you might have a majority in Congress in Libertaria, maybe another country doesn't.

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So it'll be harder for them to pass something like a Bitcoin law than, say, Libertaria,

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because you have majority in Congress and you can effectively do as you please.

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But it really comes down to what problems they're facing.

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So are there any problems or do you have any excess energy in Libertaria?

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I hope so.

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Yes, actually in Libertaria we have quite a bit of excess hydropower that we really

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don't have a use for right now.

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And we also were a very fortunate country in that we have some really great geothermal

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that we are just looking for reason to tap into, but a lot of it's a little stranded.

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And we also happen to have some deep, deep oil reserves.

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So our oil is very, very cheap for our citizens, any oil products.

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But unfortunately, we're just we're having to flare so much methane as a part of that

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process.

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It's it's really something if only there was something we could do about that.

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Yeah, so I guess you're kind of like leading into it.

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But you know, I would pitch like President Walker, you have all these resources at your

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disposal and with Bitcoin, you can solve a lot of the problems.

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You can cap off the flares, monetize that in the form of Bitcoin.

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And with your untapped energy reserves, you can just tap into them because with Bitcoin

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mining, you can mine anywhere.

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You don't need to have a specific spot.

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You can go where the energy is and maybe you want to build a new airport.

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Well, this is the way to finance that new airport for Libertaria.

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So mine Bitcoin, we can help you set up and then you can build your report.

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But it's really that simple, like aligning the incentives and their needs with what Bitcoin

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can help them and then potentially bringing in the right partners to do so.

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But there's also the opportunity to pitch them on a Bitcoin bond.

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So this was announced a few years back in El Salvador and I think President Bukele is

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still planning to do it.

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But this is a way to raise capital, incur sovereign debt, but have a component of it

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put into the hardest asset on the planet, which is Bitcoin.

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So this model can actually help a lot of countries eliminate their debt problem or having to

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pay the IMF indefinitely.

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So maybe Libertaria has a debt problem.

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You're overextended.

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You have a lot of debt problems.

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You have to pay the IMF every year, an exorbitant amount of money to service the debt.

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Well, then I would say, well, you can mine Bitcoin, take your excess energy or your untapped

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energy and raise capital to do that and then eliminate all debt in five to 10 years.

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I'll have to take this to the members of my Congress in Libertaria, but it's a very

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compelling pitch.

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I think that you've been doing this now, giving these pitches, having these conversations,

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looking for these pain points now for some time.

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And as you've been having these conversations, the Bitcoin landscape has obviously further

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developed.

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The narrative, I feel, or maybe I should say the overton window around Bitcoin has shifted.

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Where you're seeing now firms like KPMG put out reports that say Bitcoin is an ESG asset,

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basically.

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You're seeing a lot of research come out that's saying, oh, wow, this is peer reviewed.

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So now I can pay attention to it, even though it was the truth before.

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It's still the truth, but now it's peer reviewed.

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So I'll listen to it.

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You're seeing these narratives shift.

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And is it becoming a little bit easier to have some of these conversations just over

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the course of time, or how have you seen that evolve in terms of receptiveness and preconceived

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notions?

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Yeah, definitely.

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I would say the narrative has shifted a lot.

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And a friend of mine, Fernando, he launched this website called BTC Perceptions, and he's

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tracking media sentiment over time.

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It's really interesting to watch, but you can see that the sentiment is getting better

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and better about Bitcoin mining.

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And it also helps with the ETF.

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So a lot of Bitcoiners are like, ETFs are horrible, and it's just a honeypot.

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It allows the government to seize your money later.

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If it's in there, it's not real Bitcoin, blah, blah.

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But from my view, the ETFs are great because it is this massive sentiment shift, where

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in the past we would go to a president of Liberia and talk to them and say, well, maybe

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you can talk about Bitcoin.

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Maybe you can think about Bitcoin, and they'll have feedback about so-and-so problems.

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Maybe it's used by criminals, things like that, the old media narrative.

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But now we just say, well, BlackRock has an ETF approved.

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So there's that.

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And that kind of eliminates the going, taking the conversation in a wrong direction about

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defending Bitcoin.

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You come at it and you say, well, this is a legitimate asset class now that is approved.

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And the largest asset manager on the planet is now offering it to their clients.

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So you can say it's risky.

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You can say you don't like it.

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You can say bad people use it.

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But here is a very cognizant fact that Bitcoin is this new asset, new reserve currency.

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It becomes a lot harder to throw up those obstacles.

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We still, of course, see folks like Elizabeth Warren, Bitcoin's favorite critic, throwing

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up the same tired tropes.

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And it seems that she's transitioned from the Bitcoin is burning the planet narrative.

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It's kind of given that up a little bit.

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And she's just fully on the Bitcoin is used by criminals narrative.

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But at a certain point, she just starts to call the world's largest asset manager a

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criminal, you know, which one could make the argument either way.

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But it doesn't matter.

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It's becoming more mainstream, whether the critics like it or not.

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And I do see a lot of the pushback.

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I see the argument for, OK, this is a centralizing a lot of Bitcoin.

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It's not real Bitcoin.

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It's still custody by them.

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But by the same token, you have so much money locked up right now in retirement accounts

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that people cannot touch until they're in the US at least until they're 65 or 64, 66,

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whatever they might be.

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And that money now has a path to get into Bitcoin where it did not before.

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Yeah.

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Sure, you had certain products like unchained.

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You could do the conversion and whatnot.

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But this is this is extremely easy now.

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And there's a larger degree of credibility to it.

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And I think that's kind of to your point is it it makes it more credible to those people

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who still have not had the time to research Bitcoin really and probably won't.

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But they see, oh, BlackRock has a Bitcoin ETF.

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OK, well, I'm all right with that.

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It just smooths that conversation a little bit.

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Exactly.

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It's the same in any kind of discourse, whether it is with a government, a president, or an

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investment manager for a pension fund, it just changes that whole direction of the narrative.

294
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So that's why I'm really bullish on the ETFs because it's a huge legitimization of Bitcoin

295
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as an asset class.

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And I think we will always have these critics like Elizabeth Warren, as you say.

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And while I respect her people and her Native American heritage, I think it's a bad look

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when she goes and gets community noted all the time for deliberately spreading misinformation

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about Bitcoin.

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So, you know, I think her elders and her tribe should have a word with her and say, maybe

301
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you shouldn't do that anymore.

302
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:26,160
But yeah, I mean, we've talked to pension fund managers in the past and this is pre ETF

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approval.

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And one of their, I guess, pushbacks right away is like Bitcoin is a risk asset.

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And I would launch into a trade and kind of lump-ass them and say, as a risk manager,

306
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you have to be constantly reassessing risk.

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You can't just pair it what was true 10 years ago.

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And you kind of have to be constantly analyzing the current macroeconomic situation.

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And in the current macroeconomic situation, everything is risky.

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Stocks are risky.

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And I'm saying like altcoins right now, for the most part, debt is piling up and the debt

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servicing payments are reaching a trillion or have reached a trillion dollars.

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So you can't just say, like maybe you heard 10 years ago in some mainstream media article,

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Bitcoin is a risky asset.

315
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,440
You can't just say that and pair it 10 years later.

316
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You have to look at the current situation and reassess.

317
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If you're not always reassessing, then what kind of a risk manager are you?

318
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But I don't need to say that anymore.

319
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,600
I just say, well, BlackRock has an ETF now.

320
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What's your strategy with Bitcoin?

321
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,600
Oh, you don't have one.

322
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That's a problem.

323
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,000
It's just an easier conversation to have.

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00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,320
No, it makes a lot of sense.

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00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,480
And also, I really was not sure where you were going with Elizabeth Warren's people

326
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,760
at first, but that well played, sir.

327
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It's funny too.

328
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:59,160
Now, we're at the point where you start to look really foolish if you are constantly

329
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:05,640
repeating the same old tropes about Bitcoin, the same old fud, the same old lies, because

330
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:13,160
whereas before, there were Bitcoin publications and Bitcoiners who were putting out information

331
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to counter these narratives.

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But now you're having folks like BlackRock or different consulting firms or whoever it

333
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:26,720
might be putting out excellent information that counters all these narratives.

334
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,920
So if you're still up there screaming that Bitcoin burns the planet or Bitcoin is only

335
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:35,040
used by criminals, you just look really stupid.

336
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:39,560
You just look like either you haven't been completely ignorant of all the information

337
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,840
that's out there or you are somehow a bad actor.

338
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,440
And neither one of those are a very good look.

339
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:51,800
And I think we're going to see a larger shift.

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00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,320
I mean, we've already seen Bitcoin enter the political discourse in a positive way.

341
00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:03,360
I mean, this past or this current election cycle, you had both RFK and Vivek who started

342
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:08,920
accepting donations in Bitcoin via the Lightning Network at Bitcoin conference.

343
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:09,920
That's huge.

344
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:15,040
Granted, Vivek is no longer in the race, but RFK is an independent with a fairly probably

345
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,280
the best chance an independence had in a long time.

346
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,360
And he's vocally pro Bitcoin.

347
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:24,480
That's a huge deal whether you like the guy or not.

348
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,600
That's a really important conversation that's being had out in the public.

349
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,280
It's nice to see.

350
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,240
You have to update your meme, by the way.

351
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:39,120
There's red, there's blue, there's Bobby, and then there's you.

352
00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:40,600
Oh, I like that.

353
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:41,600
I like that.

354
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,400
It's not red and blue anymore, right?

355
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:44,400
I know.

356
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,280
It's not a big game, which is really interesting.

357
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:51,480
And I just find that, I don't know, we constantly seem to be living in the most interesting time

358
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:52,960
for better or for worse.

359
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,840
But this is the time at which Bitcoin takes center stage and the time at which an independent

360
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,080
actually has a shot at winning.

361
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:06,600
And at a time which we have seen people come out of left field and win, like Malay and

362
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:07,600
Argentina.

363
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,960
So these are very interesting times.

364
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:16,360
Now I actually, I wanted to ask you kind of your take on Malay and Argentina because I

365
00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:21,120
think first of all, it was incredible to see him get invited to Davos and then to give

366
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:23,640
that speech, which was outstanding.

367
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,360
Like something you never thought that you would hear on the stage at Davos.

368
00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:30,640
Quite refreshing.

369
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:39,800
But he has really thrown a wrench into the not working gears of Argentina and gotten

370
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,120
them spinning again.

371
00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:42,440
It seems.

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00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:48,280
And he has been, you know, Bitcoin was not a center part of his campaign by any means,

373
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,760
but it was something that he talked about multiple times in the context of sound money

374
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:56,520
and Austrian economics and libertarianism kind of at large.

375
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:02,840
Do you see or maybe you're hearing rumblings of any sorts of moves by Argentina?

376
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,800
Do you think that they move toward dollarization and then there's the potential for a move

377
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,680
towards Bitcoin legal tender status?

378
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,120
Do you think that doesn't even necessarily make sense for them?

379
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:15,800
And there's an alternate path they can follow to incorporate Bitcoin.

380
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,720
Maybe it's the bonds.

381
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,560
Argentina is also a country that is rich in natural resources.

382
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:27,200
What do you see playing out in Argentina and kind of I assume you're pretty bullish on

383
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,320
Argentina given the recent developments?

384
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,200
Yeah, it's great.

385
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,400
It's just great.

386
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:40,120
His address at the World Economic Forum was just perfect, but I think there's some commonality

387
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:41,960
too to what he's doing, right?

388
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,640
And what we're doing is Jan 3.

389
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,440
So we also get some blowback about our work with governments.

390
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,320
People say, well, why are you doing that?

391
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,400
You're helping the state get Bitcoin.

392
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:52,400
That's not a good thing.

393
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,440
We need to separate money in states, et cetera, et cetera.

394
00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:00,200
But you have to kind of work with the systems we've got because we do have governments now.

395
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:01,280
We do have politicians.

396
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,200
We do have people making laws about this stuff.

397
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:09,080
So either you go and engage with them or you just say, no, I'm just going to do my own

398
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,880
thing and then you get the Orwellian stuff coming out as law because they don't know

399
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,280
any better or they're fearful of new technology, new things.

400
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:24,360
And then they try to ban self-gustity or say register all your miners with this agency.

401
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:26,800
There's all these bad things that can come of not engaging.

402
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,520
But if you do engage, I think there's no downside to it, only upside.

403
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,880
The worst is they don't listen to you or they dismiss you.

404
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:39,520
But the rest of it is maybe they'll listen, maybe somebody in there listens or maybe it

405
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:44,200
kicks off a spark in some guy's mind about Bitcoin and he starts going down the rabbit

406
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:45,200
hole.

407
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:46,600
But I only see benefits of it.

408
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:47,600
And it's the same with Millet.

409
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,240
When Millet said he was going to Davos, a lot of Bitcoin is like, oh, he's just another

410
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:53,240
puppet.

411
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,040
But he's not.

412
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,640
He is a libertarian and he is speaking his mind.

413
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,080
But now he's doing it in a much broader platform.

414
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:09,160
And it is very powerful because if you look at the views, I think he's reached millions

415
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:14,800
of views on his speech and no one cares what Macron is saying or Lagarde is saying because

416
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,480
no one believes them anymore.

417
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,800
No one cares what they have to say.

418
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:24,240
The message that people care about is the one of freedom and doing things that make sense.

419
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:30,040
And I think bringing that back to center stage is very important for this new renaissance

420
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,040
that Bitcoin is spearheading.

421
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,600
And it's the same case for RFK, for Bobby.

422
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,240
He's also spreading that same message.

423
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,080
And you can look at it and be negative about it and say, well, he's just a politician.

424
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,200
He's just saying this to get votes.

425
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,760
But the reality is it's probably more detrimental to Bobby to talk about Bitcoin than to not

426
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,320
talk about Bitcoin, right?

427
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,360
Because we're not a huge audience.

428
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:57,720
Yes, we have some economic power and some influence and we could be noisy, but we're

429
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,920
not the masses.

430
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,280
So he does run the risk of turning off a lot of people.

431
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:09,440
But I believe he is doing so because he actually believes that Bitcoin is critical to freedom.

432
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:16,400
And I'm just getting off topic here, but going back to Argentina, I don't believe Argentina

433
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,480
has to follow the same path as say El Salvador and go Bitcoin law and launch a Chivo and

434
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:22,480
etc.

435
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,520
They're following their own path, which is deregulation.

436
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,560
So Malay has said, you can use whatever money you want to use in trade.

437
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:34,360
And we've seen people sign apartment lease agreements denominated in Bitcoin.

438
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:38,000
There's a massive amount of tether adoption in Argentina as well.

439
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,160
And I expect people are going to ramp up on that and just use the money that they want

440
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,400
to use rather than a mandated money.

441
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:50,000
And I think I haven't had time to dig into it, but I think there is discussions or approval

442
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,880
already of removing tax on Bitcoin.

443
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,920
So you can achieve the same effects as El Salvador doing things your own way.

444
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,560
I believe this is what's going to play out over the next few years.

445
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:05,960
Different countries just doing something unique to adopt Bitcoin, not necessarily following

446
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:12,160
and copying that strategy, but coming up with their own and in accordance with local laws

447
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:13,160
too.

448
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,600
So I said in the past, I'm bullish on Panama and I'm bullish on Guatemala.

449
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,760
So Costa Rica has a loophole too, but they have these loopholes to make Bitcoin legal

450
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,200
tender without making Bitcoin legal tender.

451
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,880
They just have to say, we want Bitcoin now and it's a done deal.

452
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,480
So there are easy ways to get Bitcoin adoption.

453
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,800
We just have to nudge it and push it along.

454
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,080
I think that's such an interesting point too.

455
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,640
No country is identical to another.

456
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,080
So their paths need not be the same when it comes to Bitcoin.

457
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:52,640
I'm very interested to see kind of the geopolitical game theory play out over the coming years.

458
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:59,120
As you see, I mean El Salvador was undeniably the first mover by a long shot here.

459
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:04,040
But as we start to see more countries look at El Salvador and say, wow, their tourism

460
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:09,080
numbers and the revenue they brought in just from that alone, just from a ton of people

461
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,600
going there who were not going there before and bringing their money and spending their

462
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,360
money in that country.

463
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,440
That's a remarkable, remarkable achievement.

464
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:22,040
And obviously a huge part of it was also making that country safe, that people want to go

465
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,640
to places where they're going to feel safe.

466
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,240
But a lot of it was also, you know, was Bitcoin related specifically.

467
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,440
And it'll be interesting at a larger scale to see other countries like Argentina, for

468
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,480
example, they start deregulating, which he's already begun.

469
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,440
If they remove any sort of tax on Bitcoin so that you can just freely use it.

470
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:47,000
Well, that makes a lot of people say, hmm, maybe I'd like to move to Argentina or at

471
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,240
least to establish a residence there and be able to go somewhere where I can spend my

472
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:56,520
Bitcoin without the government taking a cut of anything that I'm spending on.

473
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:02,960
That becomes and as other countries see that when money starts moving out of countries,

474
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,480
then governments I feel start paying a little bit more attention.

475
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,640
Once their tax base starts eroding and they realize that, you know, we still do want to

476
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,040
collect taxes, even though we can just print the difference.

477
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,160
We want to get as many taxes as we can.

478
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,680
That's when they start to perk up a little bit and say, huh, maybe we need to rethink

479
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,680
our strategy on this.

480
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:28,200
But those first movers, I think, have just a massive advantage and will probably reap

481
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,280
the greatest, you know, proportional rewards for this.

482
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:38,880
Yeah, but I'd love to know if you have whatever you can talk about again.

483
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:45,600
But is there a lot of covert either Bitcoin mining, maybe in, let's say, oil rich nations

484
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:52,600
in the Middle East or Bitcoin stacking by any sort of sovereign wealth fund that you

485
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,720
think is happening behind the scenes right now?

486
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,480
And they're just trying to keep it quiet for as long as they can because they've already

487
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,760
seen like they already get it and they want to get as far ahead as they can before everyone

488
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,000
else catches on.

489
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,000
Yeah.

490
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:10,720
I mean, I was just talking on a spaces with a couple guys, Alessandro, Adam Back and others

491
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:15,760
about the ETFs and also we segwayed into mining.

492
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:23,440
But the massive spike in hash rate over the last year or so, I think, is largely due to

493
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,080
sovereign mining.

494
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,760
And we know about Bhutan now.

495
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,640
And the only reason we know about Bhutan was they were outed in some bankruptcy filing.

496
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,120
I believe it was Celsius.

497
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,400
So they had something there and we just know that they have mining.

498
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,360
So they came on, they owned it.

499
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,440
So there are others I've heard of.

500
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:46,440
I don't want to name them because they're not confirmed, but they're very credible murmurings

501
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:47,960
of these countries mining.

502
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,440
So there is that.

503
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,080
We know El Salvador is mining and there is a large public private partnership.

504
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:59,880
We know Costa Rica has a public private partnership too with a small hydro insulation.

505
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,280
And we know Oman is mining with Marathon.

506
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,200
So this is really what's driving the hash rate.

507
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,520
So a lot of people are concerned like post having what's going to happen.

508
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,760
Is it going to crash?

509
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,120
Maybe they'll dig up the old mining death spiral again.

510
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:19,120
But I think all the sophisticated miners have hedging tools at their disposal.

511
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:24,560
So they don't need to just flash sale, flash sell Bitcoin and dump it on market to meet

512
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,960
bills, meet bill payments.

513
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:31,280
And then you have all the sovereign mining that is effectively behind the meter.

514
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,400
So they don't have to pay for electricity.

515
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:38,240
It's just, you know, it's their power so they can just use it as they want.

516
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,000
So I don't think there's going to be an issue there.

517
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,480
But I guess my point is there are, and to answer your question, there are a lot of countries

518
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,800
that are mining that have not become public about it yet.

519
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,480
And if we are successful in what we're doing with Jan 3, we'll have Columbia as well and

520
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:51,600
Surinam mining.

521
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:57,600
So this is the trend that the mining and the hash rate is just price insensitive.

522
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,240
They don't care anymore.

523
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,800
And you know, Bitcoin could go to a dollar and they'd still be mining because they already

524
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,400
have the infrastructure.

525
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:09,040
They have free power and they can use it to balance their grid.

526
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,280
So it's just the new norm.

527
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,640
It's just going to be this blending of mining and energy company, where it's just energy

528
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,240
companies are miners and miners are energy companies.

529
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:25,200
I mean, it's a natural symbiotic relationship, right?

530
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:30,880
I mean, Gladstein had a great piece lately in Bitcoin mag stranded and it was talking

531
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:38,920
more about smaller scale mining made possible by Gridless in Africa and in Malawi specifically.

532
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:44,600
They were looking at some cases, but his point was basically, if you are not mining Bitcoin,

533
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:50,240
you are wasting energy because in any sort of energy production environment, there is

534
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,280
wasted energy right now under the current paradigm.

535
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:59,240
Here we're talking about solar or wind or hydrothermal, whatever it might or geothermal,

536
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,960
whatever it might be, especially with, you know, if you're drilling for oil, inventing

537
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,120
methane as well, like, wow, you're literally burning money.

538
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:14,000
But now you have this tool, this technology that allows you to say, okay, we're going

539
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,680
to capture that waste and turn it into the hardest form of money that humanity has ever

540
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:20,240
discovered.

541
00:34:20,240 --> 00:34:27,760
It's hard to see how as an energy producing nation or as an energy company, you are not

542
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,400
falling over yourself to ramp that up as fast as you can.

543
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:38,720
I know one, I mean, to name a big name, Exxon, I think started a pilot, it was maybe 2021,

544
00:34:38,720 --> 00:34:44,400
if I'm remembering correctly, where they were mining with flared gas.

545
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:49,320
It gets, at a think at a certain point, it's like you will not be able to be competitive

546
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,520
in the market unless you are mining Bitcoin.

547
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:59,360
And maybe even, you know, regular in some cases, regulation helps drive this even faster.

548
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:04,680
I know Biden had proposed something recently about needing to deal with methane emissions

549
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,320
and okay, what are you going to do there?

550
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:14,240
If not mine Bitcoin, there is no second best option, right?

551
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:15,400
Yeah, there is not.

552
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:21,240
I mean, Jay Powell had that 60 minute interview recently and he was saying, yeah, well, we're

553
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:25,600
borrowing from future generations and things are not looking good, this is unsustainable,

554
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,840
etc, etc.

555
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:33,000
Sometimes the problem is just staring you in the face and the answer is like right here,

556
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:40,040
either by Bitcoin or just mine Bitcoin, but it seems to be a challenge for them to understand

557
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:41,040
it.

558
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:46,600
Maybe it's just too simple, like I can solve all of society's ills by just buying Bitcoin

559
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,360
or mining Bitcoin.

560
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:49,440
Maybe it's too simple.

561
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:54,480
Maybe they want that, you know, Rube Goldberg machine with a lot of complexity.

562
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,440
I don't know, I don't know the answer to that, but we see this too when we're engaged with

563
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,520
the governments too.

564
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:07,840
And we're like, well, how about just mine with the methane from the dump?

565
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,880
And there's always a will like, oh, that's a great idea.

566
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,520
But then how do you get from that's a great idea to execution?

567
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:18,360
And it's really the same with dealing with any complex piece of machinery is just you

568
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:24,120
have to keep pushing it along and persisting and persevering.

569
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:29,040
It's not easy to get them to do what they need to do, but it's sometimes is flabbergassing

570
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:35,680
for us as Bitcoiners to look at this and say, well, Jay Powell just buy Bitcoin or, you know,

571
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,800
a country with methane, just mine Bitcoin.

572
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,960
It's such an easy thing to do.

573
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:42,960
It is funny.

574
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,200
It's actually something I've been thinking a lot about lately is I think a lot of times

575
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:54,720
resistance to Bitcoin comes from this denial that the solution could be so simple because

576
00:36:54,720 --> 00:37:01,280
we live in this society where there are gatekeepers and middlemen everywhere and there are the

577
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:09,680
so-called experts who we turn to for these complex solutions that us normal mortals,

578
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,320
us unanointed could not possibly conceive of.

579
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,760
And the solution has to be complex.

580
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,600
And there's all these factors going into it and so many moving parts and you can't just

581
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,320
simplify it down, but you can.

582
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:23,320
You actually can.

583
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:28,880
And I think that that's maybe one of the things that's annoying to some folks or is actually

584
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,480
a thorn in their side is like, well, I've spent my whole life trying to perfectly orchestrate,

585
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:38,520
you know, Jay Powell, like he's he's trying to get the economy just right to get the perfect

586
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:43,000
balance of, you know, get back to that arbitrary 2% inflation number.

587
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,880
And you know, with the smartest people in the room on the case when they're not inside

588
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,080
or trading and resigning from their Federal Reserve President positions, that's a different

589
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:51,720
point.

590
00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:55,040
But the answer, as you said, is just it's sitting right there.

591
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,720
You just have to be, I think, maybe humble enough to accept that you are over complicating

592
00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:03,600
things and that there is, I mean, especially when you're the U.S. and you have the World

593
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,120
Reserve currency.

594
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,960
Do you think that this is something I wanted to ask you about as well?

595
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:16,880
Bitcoin is seemingly an opportunity for a lot of countries in the so called underdeveloped

596
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:26,360
world to leapfrog ahead to, you know, much like, you know, Africa went basically straight

597
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,520
to feature phones and cell phone smartphones.

598
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:34,320
You know, they didn't install a ton of landlines everywhere.

599
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:39,160
They have an opportunity to leapfrog their monetary technology, the same in many other

600
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,440
places in Asia and South America.

601
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:47,080
And it seems that a lot of the resistance to Bitcoin actually comes from the so called

602
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:52,440
developed world from the big established powers.

603
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:57,600
How do you see that playing out in this evolving multipolar world?

604
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,000
How do you see the power dynamics shifting?

605
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:07,440
And do you think there is a, you know, a good chance that in the next 10, 20, 30 years,

606
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:15,560
the world just looks vastly different because some people got Bitcoin and said, I get it.

607
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,280
We're going to use this to our advantage as a nation state.

608
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,560
And others said, we need to regulate this.

609
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,280
It's a threat to national security.

610
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,720
It's used by criminals, et cetera, et cetera.

611
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:29,680
The Bitcoin having is just a couple months away and it's going to be here before we know

612
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:30,680
it.

613
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,720
With that, the fiat price of Bitcoin is probably going to do some wild things.

614
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:37,400
So now is a great time for you to get your Bitcoin.

615
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,320
Off exchanges and into your own custody.

616
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:46,800
A great way to do that is by going to Bitbox.swiss slash Walker and using the promo code Walker

617
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:52,600
for 5% off the Bitbox 02 Bitcoin only hardware wallet.

618
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:53,600
It's fully open source.

619
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,840
You can go to their GitHub and verify for yourself.

620
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:57,840
It's easy to use.

621
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:03,440
So whether you are new to Bitcoin or you're a seasoned psychopath, this wallet is a great

622
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:04,440
choice.

623
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:09,720
And when you go to Bitbox.swiss slash Walker and use the promo code Walker, not only do

624
00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:15,360
you get 5% off the Bitbox 02 or anything in their store, but you also help support another

625
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,280
fucking Bitcoin podcast.

626
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:18,280
So thank you.

627
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:23,960
Yeah, I mean, there is this opportunity and my fear is that they won't get the opportunity

628
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,680
if Bitcoin makes a sudden hyperbolic move up.

629
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,440
So this is my Max Payne theory.

630
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:40,600
So the ideal case is we plot slowly up gradually to, you know, 1 million over a number of years.

631
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:45,520
Everyone gets to learn about Bitcoin and not get Bitcoin at the price they deserve, but

632
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,840
on this nice, even time schedule.

633
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,080
But we all know that's not going to happen.

634
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,520
You always get Bitcoin at the price you deserve.

635
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,080
So the question is, do they deserve it?

636
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,040
I would hope so, but it seems not likely.

637
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,280
It seems more likely that Bitcoin is going to shoot up very rapidly and all these developing

638
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,920
countries will stay developing countries and the big dominant players will stay the big

639
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:07,160
dominant players.

640
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:08,720
That's the worst outcome.

641
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:13,960
The best outcome is that we can get some of them at least, maybe Argentina, Al Salvador,

642
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,920
Columbia, et cetera, onto a Bitcoin standard and they become the new first world countries

643
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,280
under this new Bitcoin standard, but they need to move.

644
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:27,520
It's not like something they can wait around for and see because the first mover advantage

645
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:33,040
is massive here, especially if Bitcoin makes this hyperbolic move or a step change, because

646
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:38,080
then you first eliminate your debt, but then you also become extremely wealthy.

647
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:44,040
And if you look at J-PAL's critique about the debt spiral and the, I guess not, it's

648
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,840
a critique, it's his analysis on it.

649
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,480
He knows it's unsustainable.

650
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:52,240
You can't not keep spending so much more than you're producing.

651
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:59,680
And the debt is just going to go to insane levels because it's just compounding all the

652
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:00,880
time.

653
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,160
So we like compound interest when we're earning it, but when you're servicing a debt and it's

654
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,240
compounding, it just becomes unsustainable.

655
00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:12,400
It just goes infinite at some point and the money breaks and you have to reissue it.

656
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,280
So you have to get in at the ground level.

657
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:24,400
I would say even 40K, even 50, 60, 70K, that's all ground level Bitcoin.

658
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,000
Everything under one million is probably going to be a rounding error in the future.

659
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,600
So if you can get in at this point, you can be the next superpower of the world.

660
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,000
And while it's great that Al Salvador was the first mover, they are still very small.

661
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:43,640
But if you get a country like Argentina, which is massive, their economy is massive and they

662
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,920
end up adopting Bitcoin as a standard and they have it in their treasury and they're

663
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,080
mining it with all their excess energy, that's going to be the next superpower of the world.

664
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:56,920
So yeah, I guess the best case scenario is that we do see an upset because the powers

665
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:04,040
that be the Western powers, they are motivated to keep the South impoverished.

666
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:11,840
If you look at France's example, they're using the CFA Frank to pay African countries for

667
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,240
their resources and they can devalue that when they want.

668
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:19,080
Again, I had to Alex Gladstein for writing all this great stuff and that's how I learned

669
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:20,080
about it.

670
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:25,720
But the incentive is to keep them poor because when they are poor, you can just extract value

671
00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:26,960
from them.

672
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:33,000
So I would love for Africa to upset things and adopt Bitcoin.

673
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:39,080
So we'll try our best in Africa, but I just see Latin America as far more ripe.

674
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:45,920
It's more politically stable, has better infrastructure, better energy, etc.

675
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,680
So I just see this charge being led from Latin.

676
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:54,160
And also you have the proximity to Malay and Bokele.

677
00:43:54,160 --> 00:44:00,600
So that's just like a ripe region for disrupting the global financial system.

678
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:05,920
It's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out.

679
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:11,840
I do want to touch on that hyperbolic move in a second here because you've certainly

680
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,520
caused quite a stir with some of these predictions.

681
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:20,560
But before we get into that, just want to double back on what you said about the extraction

682
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:25,880
of resources from, again, the so-called underdeveloped world.

683
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,160
Because I think it's something that especially if you're an American, if you're someone who's

684
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:38,280
from Western Europe, if you're from one of the world leader countries at this point,

685
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:44,920
you, well to quote Gladstein again, you need to check your financial privilege.

686
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,160
I think that it's really hard for a lot of people.

687
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:54,920
I mean, even if I'm just thinking of friends that I talked to who work in traditional finance

688
00:44:54,920 --> 00:45:00,480
and they are great guys, finance bros, though.

689
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,760
Some of them have come around to Bitcoin, but a lot of them haven't because they just

690
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,440
they don't really get why the heck you would possibly need it.

691
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,200
And some of them, you know, it's, well, Bitcoin's kind of interesting, but really I'm more interested

692
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:12,680
in the blockchain technology.

693
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,680
You know, you get some of those too.

694
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:27,360
But it becomes really, you start to feel really, at least for me, guilty as an American when

695
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:35,720
you start to go deeper down the rabbit hole of figuring out how your country has completely

696
00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:36,720
put these other nations.

697
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:42,120
I mean, it's monetary imperialism, basically, where you are exporting your inflation.

698
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:47,400
I would go as far to say that inflation is America's number one export, right?

699
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:52,320
We import all of the cheap things we need from around the world and we pay for it with

700
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,600
dollars we print out of thin air.

701
00:45:54,600 --> 00:46:00,320
And you know, we manage to keep inflation relatively low in the US because of that wonderful

702
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,840
relationship that we have, that extractive relationship.

703
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:13,880
But I have to imagine that around the world, people are people and governments are pretty sick and tired of it.

704
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:20,120
And especially if you're, let's say, a dollarized economy somewhere in the world, and you are

705
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,680
using the dollar, which is relatively stable, but you don't have the benefit of the printing

706
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,640
press in your basement.

707
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,560
That probably gets pretty darn frustrating.

708
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:35,880
And if you're these countries in Africa that are under the boot of France, it's genuinely

709
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,280
sickening to see that they are purposefully being kept that way.

710
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,760
It's not because they are somehow less.

711
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,880
It's not because they don't have the willpower.

712
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,760
It's because the system is literally designed for them never to be able to get out from

713
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,760
underneath that boot of monetary imperialism.

714
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,440
And that's it's just such a sad thing to realize, honestly.

715
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,440
Like it's depressing.

716
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:06,600
Yeah, but yeah, I think it's difficult for people with financial privilege to understand

717
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:07,600
that privilege.

718
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:12,520
If you have a bank account and a debit card or a credit card, the likelihood that you

719
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:17,760
could understand what it's like to be unbanked is probably like 5%.

720
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:23,280
You have to really be able to think and put yourself in someone else's position to understand

721
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:28,080
what it's like because you've grown up your whole life with all of this stuff around you.

722
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:29,880
It's just second nature in some ways.

723
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,960
Like, yeah, why do they need Bitcoin?

724
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:33,960
Because it's so easy.

725
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:39,400
I just go and pay with my card or I get my Venmo account and I send you 10 bucks or it's

726
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:40,880
just part of your life.

727
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,680
So it's really hard to understand that, I think.

728
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:48,640
And then it permeates through society because you grew up in this environment of easy money,

729
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:53,320
easy access to money, and then you become part of the government and you also forget

730
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:58,080
that proof of work exists and things are hard and things are expensive and you actually

731
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,080
need to make good decisions.

732
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:07,480
So then you get this, I guess, this attitude of protectionism where you have to protect

733
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:12,280
what you've got and then you try to implement these controls against things that are outside

734
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,600
of the system like Bitcoin.

735
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,920
But ultimately, you can't keep protecting the system.

736
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:22,440
You can't say, well, we don't want anything outside from coming into our system because

737
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:23,440
that system will die.

738
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:29,080
The entire world is built on interconnectivity and international trade and movement of funds.

739
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:35,040
So if all your focus is on preventing Bitcoin from getting into the system, then the system

740
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,880
will just die because it can't sustain itself.

741
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,640
And I think this is one of the lost arts of governance.

742
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,880
How does the economy work?

743
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:52,080
Because you just see the unchecked spending and spending on crazy things too.

744
00:48:52,080 --> 00:49:00,040
And it's the general absence of basic economic theory and that hurts in the end and that

745
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,000
generally results in failure in the end.

746
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:08,640
So we're starting to see the resurgence of basic economic thinking to come into government

747
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,640
like Malay, right?

748
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:15,360
It also goes hand in hand with what we talked about before about simple solutions.

749
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:20,840
So if you're drowning in debt and you need to stop spending so much, maybe cut some government

750
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,760
agencies and that's what he did.

751
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:24,760
But it's so easy.

752
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:26,880
Like, well, we're spending too much.

753
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:28,120
Our budget is too big.

754
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,400
Well, just cut a few things, right?

755
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,480
Maybe if you're America, you can, God forbid, reduce military spending.

756
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:35,480
I don't know.

757
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:39,280
I don't want to advise you on things like that.

758
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:43,200
But it could work, maybe.

759
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:48,240
It is just truly absurd that I feel like we're living in this time where the question of

760
00:49:48,240 --> 00:49:52,600
actually cutting spending isn't even on the table.

761
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,000
It's not even part of the discourse.

762
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:58,760
At least speaking from my American-centric perspective, when you see it doesn't matter

763
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:06,640
if they're Republicans or Democrats, Republicans are talking about cutting social programs,

764
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:11,080
Democrats are talking about cutting the military, but none of them are ever really talking about

765
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,440
widespread reduction.

766
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:18,600
It's just all, what is going to score political points with my particular constituency because

767
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:22,920
they like when I say this and that gets me a lot of views and clicks and more donations

768
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,160
to my next campaign.

769
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:29,320
But they're always band-aid solutions.

770
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:33,600
They're never actually treating the disease.

771
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:37,240
They're just curing the disease.

772
00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:39,520
They're treating the symptoms.

773
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:45,000
It's this refusal to acknowledge that the problem, the disease is so much deeper than

774
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,320
their political one-liner talking points.

775
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:53,840
It's the base layer of everything, which is that our money is just broken.

776
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:58,160
That's not a left wing or a right wing issue.

777
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,320
That is just an issue.

778
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:06,920
It's superseded, it should be apolitical, but sadly it hasn't permeated its way into

779
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,080
the conversation enough, not in a real way.

780
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:15,040
I mean, you look in the US, Jerome Powell was appointed by Trump, reappointed by Biden.

781
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,600
The president changes.

782
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:22,320
Different group of, one, reds are mad or the blues are mad, but the Federal Reserve just

783
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:28,320
keeps on humming, just keeps the printers up and nobody's any the wiser because they're

784
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:33,000
too busy focusing on the political talking heads versus the people who are actually

785
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:38,560
really dictating the direction that we go at a much more macro level.

786
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:45,400
Yeah, fundamentally, I think what it is is an addiction to free stuff.

787
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:46,680
All of this is free stuff.

788
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:48,560
It's not really free, right?

789
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:53,280
To be honest, the government can't give you anything that it didn't first take from you.

790
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,720
But in the minds of people with less critical thinking, it is free stuff.

791
00:51:57,720 --> 00:52:01,800
Whether they acknowledge it or not, and they want the free stuff.

792
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,200
So how do you break out of that cycle?

793
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,520
It's very hard to break out of that cycle of getting quote unquote free stuff, especially

794
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,320
when the government has the money printer at their disposal.

795
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:16,480
So there's all this talk about election interference and like, you know, foreign parties interfering

796
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:22,600
with the election, but the reality is, democracy is a flawed mechanic because it's always under

797
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:24,720
this 51% attack.

798
00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:30,840
And you have a lot of interference already internally about the incentives of various

799
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:35,440
interests and what they want the government to spend money on in the future.

800
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,840
So it is already under attack.

801
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:41,760
It's already corrupted from within.

802
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,880
So I don't know how to break out of that.

803
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:50,800
But to look at Argentina as a beacon of hope, I would say Malae's cutting of government

804
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:57,080
ministries is incredibly significant, more so than a lot of people are giving him credit

805
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:58,080
for.

806
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:02,960
Maybe it's even more important than Bitcoin Law in El Salvador as an unpopular opinion,

807
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:08,360
because this is actually something that has very material change and sets a strong precedent

808
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:12,480
that you can cut the government down if it becomes too big.

809
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:19,040
And this also solves a lot of problems too, because you get less bureaucracy.

810
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,160
Things actually can function again.

811
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:27,880
And I had critiqued in general governments because you always have lawmakers and you

812
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:32,480
don't have law removers or law optimizers to make sure things make sense.

813
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,480
But what he's doing is actually trying to accomplish that, like removing laws.

814
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,200
Some of the first things he did when he came to power was remove laws.

815
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:45,440
And I think this is a step in the right direction of where we need to go as a society to learn

816
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:52,080
to not just make new rules, but go back and do the hard work of reading what you've got

817
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,440
and figuring out, does this make sense?

818
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,440
And does it all work together?

819
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:03,840
Yeah, it is funny that it's become almost inconceivable.

820
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:10,520
And Malae is viewed as so radical for taking his chainsaw to these ministries and trying

821
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,080
to deregulate.

822
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,080
Not to remove all regulations.

823
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,720
It's not like it's this free for all there.

824
00:54:16,720 --> 00:54:23,360
He's just cutting down on burdensome bits of legal structure that don't actually do

825
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:25,520
anyone any good.

826
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:32,000
And I cannot wait to see what the future has in store for Argentina, because I don't have

827
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:33,600
a crystal ball.

828
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:38,520
But I have to imagine that that's going to have some incredibly positive results.

829
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:43,360
And very quickly, and you've seen some of this already, like housing prices starting

830
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:48,520
to normalize a little bit more, he brought the peso actually, he brought it to the black

831
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:50,040
market rate, right?

832
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:54,680
He devalued it, but he actually just was honest about it and said, look, this is, we all know

833
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:56,440
it's worth this much.

834
00:54:56,440 --> 00:55:01,520
Let's make that the official rate, which is kind of brilliant, actually.

835
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:08,280
Just to see him basically take the tools of the prior regime and just say, look, this

836
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,360
is the honest truth.

837
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:12,640
We're talking about simple answers, right?

838
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,960
Mining Bitcoin is a simple answer.

839
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:16,800
Mining Bitcoin is a simple answer.

840
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:20,600
And then reducing the size of the government is also a simple answer.

841
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:26,520
And these very simple answers can have very profound effects on society.

842
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:32,240
It's one of the things as much despair and darkness as there may be in this world.

843
00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:37,040
I am so very hopeful because you start, first of all, because Bitcoin exists.

844
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,000
That makes me incredibly hopeful.

845
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:45,000
But also because you see these bright spots start to pop up, these lights start to turn

846
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:50,160
on in the darkness and more people start to turn on their lights around them.

847
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:59,760
And I think success is contagious in a certain way, where if you see a country or a person,

848
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:06,040
a company that is doing really well, your natural inclination is to wonder, okay, how

849
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:07,480
are they doing that?

850
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,600
How did they go from point A to point B?

851
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:15,000
And point B is a heck of a lot better than point A. And you start to get curious.

852
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:16,360
You start to ask questions.

853
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:20,000
And citizens of countries start to say, hold on.

854
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:25,840
These guys were where we are a few years ago, but now they have gone far ahead of us and

855
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:27,320
they have a much better standard of living.

856
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:31,040
They have just a much better society.

857
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:32,040
How did they do that?

858
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:33,720
And why aren't we doing that here?

859
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:36,680
And then you start to see the pressure build, I think.

860
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:37,680
I hope.

861
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:43,320
Yeah, but there's also a risk there too, which is that they don't want their citizens to

862
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:44,400
leave, right?

863
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,960
They stop you from moving.

864
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,080
They stop your mobility.

865
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:53,680
They impose exit taxation, all these things, and try to keep you within.

866
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,000
But I mean, it's good and bad.

867
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,000
The good is that it removes the veil.

868
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,720
It just shows the collectivism and totalitarianism for what it is.

869
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:09,680
But the bad is that some people are going to have to suffer, but under all of this pomp

870
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:16,360
and rhetoric and trying to look good, it's hiding a lot of very totalitarian stuff there.

871
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,600
There's the case of the baseball player.

872
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,640
I forgot his name, but he's in California.

873
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:27,360
He signed a contract for $700 million, and he was taking payments of $2 million a year

874
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:34,560
and the bulk of it, like $68 million after he leaves California, and he's doing everything

875
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:35,960
by the book.

876
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:40,600
But then the Democrats in California are like, well, you can't do that.

877
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:42,120
That's our tax money.

878
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:47,560
So now they're thinking about ways to change it so that he can't get out of paying his

879
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:48,960
cut to the state.

880
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:57,280
So all of these things just unveil that collectivism under the hood, hidden just below the surface,

881
00:57:57,280 --> 00:57:58,920
which is good, I think, at the end of the day.

882
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:03,240
You have to show people what they're dealing with, show them the monster.

883
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:09,080
Yeah, and it's such a good point that to see what's happening in California is like, just

884
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:14,760
when you think they can't do anything that is dumber than they're doing, they go and

885
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:18,320
do something like these, the new taxes that they're implementing.

886
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:22,920
I don't know if all of them have passed yet, but they're certainly in the process.

887
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:30,200
But the idea that to go from, we are the United States, and that the idea that one state is

888
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:37,520
going to try to continue being this leech on you, even if you move elsewhere and you are

889
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:42,680
no longer getting paid in that state, but we're laying our claim to your future, unrealized

890
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:48,080
earnings, because when you sign the contract, you were here, so we deserve our piece of

891
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:49,080
the pie.

892
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,200
That is insane.

893
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,200
It is.

894
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:54,600
That's worse than an exit tax leaving the country.

895
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,680
That's an exit tax going from state to state.

896
00:58:57,680 --> 00:58:59,160
It's called slavery.

897
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:02,040
Yeah, you may as well be.

898
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:06,440
It's an interesting thought experiment that is actually quite real.

899
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:15,400
It's like, okay, if slavery is 100% non-ownership of the only private property that any of us

900
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,480
truly have, which is our own bodies.

901
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:23,520
So it's 100% ownership of that, and through that, the confiscation of your work products,

902
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:28,520
anything that you produce is taken by somebody else.

903
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:30,520
What is 50% of that being taken then?

904
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:34,160
Does that make you half a slave?

905
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:35,960
Where do you draw the line?

906
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:40,480
Is there a 51% attack on being a slave, where if the taxes are over 51%, you're actually

907
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:44,160
rounding up to a full slave?

908
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:45,920
It's kind of sad that we're at that point.

909
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:54,400
But one thing I want to ask you is, as we, and this may feed into the Omega candle discussion,

910
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:59,560
but as we go these next few years, I think whatever people think about the fiat price

911
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:03,800
of Bitcoin, we can all agree that four years from now, five years from now, it will be

912
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:05,360
higher than it is today.

913
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:10,520
And another four or five years, it will be higher than it was five years from now.

914
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:16,680
With that, in various jurisdictions, I think we're going to see some even more totalitarian

915
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:24,320
laws that are tried to pass, like a windfall tax on Bitcoiners, for example, like, oh, well,

916
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:30,840
you lucky Bitcoin speculators and criminals and shadowy supercoders, you've made so many

917
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,640
fiat, unrealized fiat gains that you deserve.

918
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:38,400
It's only fair that you pay some of that back to the state so we can redistribute it more

919
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:40,320
intelligently for you.

920
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,440
And do you think that that's something that we're going to start to deal with at a large

921
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:45,040
scale?

922
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:51,840
And is that almost also the, can that be a sign of like the beginning of the end for

923
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,160
the states that are the nation states that are doing that?

924
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:58,960
Like, is that the death knell where they kind of admit like, oh, shit, we've lost?

925
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:04,840
Yeah, I mean, this is a very interesting thought experiment.

926
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:08,960
And I don't really know where it's going to go, but we have all of these interconnected

927
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,720
forces kind of vying for dominance.

928
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:19,000
You have that control, that totalitarianism goal, and that is fighting against that free

929
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:23,400
market competition between all these other countries that are implementing, you know,

930
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:25,680
more open policies and whatnot.

931
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:29,400
And then you have the fact that Bitcoin is getting dominance and it is self sovereign

932
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:31,040
and you can keep it in your head.

933
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,600
So how do all of these factors play out?

934
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:39,320
That's anyone's guess, but I can tell you for sure that anybody under that influence

935
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:43,720
of control is not going to have good time until this, until one of the other forces

936
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:44,720
wins out.

937
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:52,320
Either these countries fail or they capitulate, but that's the only way it can go because

938
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:54,640
people start to realize that they are slaves at some point, right?

939
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:59,320
Right now it's just this thing that goes out on podcasts and people talk about, am I a

940
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:00,320
50% slave?

941
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:01,520
I don't know.

942
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:03,680
But people can feel it, just like inflation.

943
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:09,000
You can say inflation doesn't exist and inflation is great, but yeah, sorry, my eggs cost triple

944
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:10,160
what they used to cost.

945
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:11,840
You can say what you want.

946
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:17,960
You can say you're not taxed to oblivion, but yeah, the reality is you're taxed to oblivion.

947
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:23,560
So it's going to be an interesting battle to play out for sure, but the funny thing

948
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:25,600
here is, do you watch The Walking Dead?

949
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:26,800
Have you watched The Walking Dead?

950
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:29,400
I've seen, I think, the first five seasons.

951
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,400
Okay, have you seen The Saviors?

952
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:34,400
Uh, no.

953
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:38,160
Okay, maybe I'm spoiling it for you.

954
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:42,440
The Saviors, the one, is that the one run by the guy with the baseball bat with the barbed

955
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:44,600
wire rather than yes, I have.

956
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:46,600
That was a dark entrance.

957
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:52,480
Yeah, so it would actually be better to be governed by the Saviors because their rule

958
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:56,160
is give us half your shit, right?

959
01:02:56,160 --> 01:03:01,560
Right now, I think if you're at the highest tax bracket in some places like in Canada,

960
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:03,840
you're over half your shit, right?

961
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:09,420
It's like 53% in Canada now and I'm pretty sure in some states it's probably over 50.

962
01:03:09,420 --> 01:03:14,240
So you'd be better off living in The Walking Dead world and having that guy, forgot his

963
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:20,240
name, Negan, be the president and he just takes half your shit because it's cheaper.

964
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:21,640
And at least he's honest about it.

965
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:24,640
You know, the rules are, the rules are clear and the same for everyone, right?

966
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:25,640
Yeah.

967
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:26,640
It is interesting too.

968
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:32,120
I mean, as soon as you start to factor in property tax and everything too, it gets to

969
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:38,000
be pretty like almost comically, like it'd be comically absurd if they weren't just

970
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:39,000
stealing from you.

971
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:42,480
And then you have to ask the natural question, which is, if I have to pay the government

972
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:47,880
every year just to be able to keep living on this piece of land in this house that I allegedly

973
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:51,840
own, then do I actually own it?

974
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:56,720
Because you can, well, and the answer to that is very easily, you can discover it very quickly.

975
01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:01,040
You just have to stop paying your taxes on your house and see how quickly the IRS shows

976
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:02,540
up there.

977
01:04:02,540 --> 01:04:04,640
They will show up.

978
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:11,360
A friend of ours had a neighbor who was a very quiet guy, kept to himself.

979
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:15,360
And nice enough, you know, good neighbor kept his lawn mowed and all that.

980
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:18,720
And this is suburban Chicago.

981
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:24,520
One day our friend looks outside his window and sees that there's multiple SWAT trucks

982
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:29,120
that have pulled up to his house with full, you know, at least eight, 10 people rolling

983
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:33,840
up full SWAT gear, full automatic weapons, staking out this guy's house and then taking

984
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:39,440
a battering ram blowing down his door when nobody came out for the loudspeaker.

985
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:41,840
And then, you know, he's like, what the hell is going on?

986
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:47,280
A couple hours later, after they had completely searched and trashed the house, one of the,

987
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:52,320
you know, the police officers or whatever they exactly were came over and talked to

988
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:56,000
our friend and said, you know, did you know this guy that had asked him some questions?

989
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,800
And our friend asked, what did he do?

990
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:03,120
Well, he hasn't paid his taxes in several years.

991
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:08,240
Apparently it was like five or seven years and he had a lot of taxes that he owed on

992
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:10,640
his house, but he refused to pay property taxes.

993
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:12,160
He didn't believe in them.

994
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,160
And that is like literally what they will do.

995
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:19,280
They will come to your house and take everything you own because you don't actually own it.

996
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:24,400
And I don't think people realize that it's, it really is the threat of violence for non-compliance.

997
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:28,880
Like that's not just a, not just a meme that we Bitcoiners say, like that is a real thing

998
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:30,480
that they will do.

999
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:33,320
But it's important for society, right?

1000
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:36,800
So, right, for the greater good, for the greater good.

1001
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:38,480
But you're American, right?

1002
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,840
So didn't you guys rebel over like a 3% T tax?

1003
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:42,840
Yeah.

1004
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:43,840
Yeah.

1005
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:47,920
I think that was, I might have been 2% at the time.

1006
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:48,920
Wow.

1007
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:49,920
It's ridiculous.

1008
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:50,920
Yeah.

1009
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:54,640
How far the mighty have fallen, right?

1010
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:55,640
Yeah.

1011
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:56,640
The land of the free.

1012
01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:57,640
Right.

1013
01:05:57,640 --> 01:05:58,640
You can't leave.

1014
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,840
You can't leave unless you pay us.

1015
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:05,240
And also you need to keep paying us even if you live somebody else if you want to be

1016
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:06,960
able to keep your citizenship here.

1017
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:10,760
Otherwise, you can renounce it and, you know, we probably won't ever let you back, but hey,

1018
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:11,840
it's up to you, you know?

1019
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,240
You have the freedom to choose.

1020
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:19,240
It's a, it's, it's well, but okay, enough of depressing IRS knocking down your door,

1021
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:20,520
taking everything you own.

1022
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:22,160
At least you can own Bitcoin.

1023
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:25,680
At least you can keep that Bitcoin in your head.

1024
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:27,520
And that's a powerful thing.

1025
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:33,440
And another powerful thing is the beautiful meme of number go up.

1026
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:39,720
And, you know, I, I, I don't always like to talk about fiat price.

1027
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:43,920
However, price is a signal, right?

1028
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,160
It's the market telling us something.

1029
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:50,800
And it is a very powerful signal when it comes to new Bitcoin adoption, because let's be

1030
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:55,120
honest, a lot of people get in for better or worse when that price is rocketing up and

1031
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:59,680
Bitcoins all over the news again, and they're thinking, Oh, wow, maybe I should get some

1032
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:06,760
of this just in case you have made recently some, some predictions that depending on what

1033
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:13,920
time frame one is viewing those predictions through are either very wild to some or completely

1034
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:14,920
reasonable.

1035
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:20,200
Like for example, I think the $1 million Bitcoin price prediction is completely reasonable

1036
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:22,040
and it will go far past that.

1037
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:24,840
It just depends on what time frame you're looking at.

1038
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:30,000
But can you talk to us a little bit about the idea of the Omega candle?

1039
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:33,720
You had another tweet the other day about, you know, a kind of power law versus chaos

1040
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:36,440
theory, which I enjoyed.

1041
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:41,920
And kind of what your thesis is for that, maybe as much of a time frame as you're comfortable

1042
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:47,440
giving for it and kind of how you arrived at that, given everything you see from the

1043
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:54,000
kind of higher level of nation states on down to the bottom up just regular average people

1044
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:55,000
buying Bitcoin.

1045
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:56,000
Yeah.

1046
01:07:56,000 --> 01:08:01,600
So the Omega candle is a hundred K green candle on the daily.

1047
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:05,560
And this is what happened after a God candle, which is 10 K.

1048
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:10,240
So the God candle has been talked about in trading circles for some time, but I figure

1049
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:16,680
with the advent of the ETFs and this massive change in the macroeconomic landscape, it's

1050
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,360
time for a bigger candle to measure.

1051
01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:25,560
And I like the term Omega because you can quantify it like a two Omega day would be

1052
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:31,280
a 200 K candle or a three Omega kind of like you measure earthquakes on the Richter scale.

1053
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:36,120
That's like a magnitude six, right?

1054
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:43,960
So I think we both agree that one million is an inevitability for Bitcoin, just simply

1055
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:50,120
because we're printing and have printed so much money, debt is through the roof.

1056
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:54,840
So we're going to hit some point in which either they lower the rates or the money dies.

1057
01:08:54,840 --> 01:09:00,360
But I mean, both are going to mean because going to go up.

1058
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:01,360
So it doesn't really matter.

1059
01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:07,360
It's an eventuality because the Bitcoin price, the Bitcoin free price is a factor of Fiat

1060
01:09:07,360 --> 01:09:08,520
clown world.

1061
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:12,040
And there is no max for Fiat clown world.

1062
01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:14,360
There's just burr.

1063
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:17,480
So a million, 10 million, we see it all the time.

1064
01:09:17,480 --> 01:09:25,320
If you look at the Turkish lira charts, Turkish lira, TRY, USDT, they already almost have

1065
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:27,080
Omega candles there.

1066
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:32,840
So you have days where it goes up 80,000 Turkish lira or 90,000 Turkish lira.

1067
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:38,440
So it's not really impossible because the money is broken so anything can happen.

1068
01:09:38,440 --> 01:09:44,160
Now my thesis is that we're going to see it before the halving, which is in the next two

1069
01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:46,000
months or so.

1070
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:48,880
I did, I talked to someone on Twitter and they said put a date.

1071
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:51,920
So I said, okay, I said days to weeks, it'll happen.

1072
01:09:51,920 --> 01:10:00,480
So this means we'll shoot up over the course of weeks, at least 10 omegas to reach 1 million.

1073
01:10:00,480 --> 01:10:04,320
So I just said, okay, let's just say ETF approval date.

1074
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:07,120
So that would mean seven weeks after that.

1075
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:09,040
So sometime late February.

1076
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:14,680
But I think that's not going to hit now because of all the grayscale selling.

1077
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:20,480
But I still think when it starts, it's just going to ramp up really quickly and just go

1078
01:10:20,480 --> 01:10:21,760
vertical.

1079
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:23,960
And this is because of a number of effects at play.

1080
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:26,440
You have a multiplier effect.

1081
01:10:26,440 --> 01:10:30,320
Bank of America had it in a previous report that was 118 times.

1082
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:36,400
Every dollar that goes into Bitcoin boosts the market cap by 118 dollars.

1083
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:42,720
And then you have the Veblen effect, which is as something becomes more valuable, people

1084
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:44,400
want more of it.

1085
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:49,600
And we see this from time and time again when Bitcoin is at all time high or close to all

1086
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:54,880
time highs, people start calling you and say, hey, Walker, tell me about this Bitcoin thing

1087
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:56,400
and how do I get some?

1088
01:10:56,400 --> 01:10:59,320
But they never will call you up when Bitcoin is at 15k.

1089
01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:02,240
Like, Walker, it just tanked to 15k.

1090
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:03,480
How do I get some?

1091
01:11:03,480 --> 01:11:06,000
Not possible, right?

1092
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:11,120
So yeah, when we start going up to like 100k, that's when people start going crazy.

1093
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:13,380
At 200k, they go even crazier.

1094
01:11:13,380 --> 01:11:19,440
And then somewhere between 250 to 500 is the Veblen threshold where we kind of cross into

1095
01:11:19,440 --> 01:11:20,440
gold AUM.

1096
01:11:20,440 --> 01:11:25,200
And at that point, it's just, you don't even need to think about it anymore.

1097
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:28,400
You just need Bitcoin because it's the global reserve asset.

1098
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:29,960
It's the new gold.

1099
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:34,600
And I think that will demonetize gold and gold will go down, but it'll keep going up.

1100
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:41,080
And as it keeps going up, you have price insensitive buyers because the shrimps, the plebs, whatever,

1101
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:43,640
they're always stacking, always DCAing.

1102
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:47,760
Then you have big anchoring entities like MicroStrategy and Tether that will also keep

1103
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:52,480
buying because they've already decided that we're going to allocate a portion of our profits

1104
01:11:52,480 --> 01:11:53,640
to buy Bitcoin.

1105
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:55,160
And then you have nation states also.

1106
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:59,880
So it just probably won't come down once it hits that threshold and it'll just keep

1107
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:00,880
going up.

1108
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:02,800
So 1 million will happen very quickly.

1109
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:10,080
And the Max Payne theory or the chaos theory is that the most painful outcome for the most

1110
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:14,440
number of people and the most chaotic outcome is probably what's going to happen.

1111
01:12:14,440 --> 01:12:18,840
So that means it's going to shoot up and to hit that 1 million mark.

1112
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:20,080
And a lot of people will miss that boat.

1113
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:24,040
Like we talked about earlier, it won't be transformative for a lot of these countries

1114
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:28,320
anymore because you're already, when you're accumulating for your reserves, you're taking

1115
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:32,440
what little fiat you have or gold you have and converting it to Bitcoin at $1 million

1116
01:12:32,440 --> 01:12:33,440
per BTC.

1117
01:12:33,440 --> 01:12:36,000
It's not going to change much.

1118
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:40,040
So that's the most painful outcome, I think, for that group.

1119
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:45,120
But yeah, all of these effects, you have the ETF demand, which is thousands of coins a

1120
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:50,880
day and then the halving coming up in less than three months, like what, eight weeks

1121
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:51,880
now?

1122
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:56,720
That's going to have the supply produced to $450 a day.

1123
01:12:56,720 --> 01:13:01,080
So you're already multiples of times over the production.

1124
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:06,520
And yes, people like to say some will sell, but those that sell will probably end up buying

1125
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:09,560
in higher because it just keeps going up.

1126
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:17,360
So all of this put together means, in my view, 1 million candle in a very short time frame

1127
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:20,720
once it starts picking up on the upward trajectory.

1128
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:23,640
I appreciate the context and the explanation there.

1129
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:29,400
When I first saw you make that prediction, I was like, honestly, that seems pretty reasonable

1130
01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:34,600
because I think that one of the things that people miss even a lot of Bitcoiners is even

1131
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:38,040
though they are far down the rabbit hole and maybe they've changed their personal unit

1132
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:45,400
of account to Bitcoin, they still have a tendency, which is natural to think in terms of the

1133
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:49,520
current paradigm to measure things in terms of the current system.

1134
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:51,240
And the Turkish lira example is a great one.

1135
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:55,600
Like Bitcoin's already hit all time highs again in TRI terms.

1136
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:58,440
Like that already happened months ago.

1137
01:13:58,440 --> 01:14:03,160
When you're measuring stick is fiat, it is going to be a flawed measurement.

1138
01:14:03,160 --> 01:14:08,080
So if you're trying to think, oh, you know, you think $100,000, $1 million per Bitcoin

1139
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:15,320
sounds outlandish, you are really just measuring with the wrong stick.

1140
01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:21,760
It's something that Jeff Booth says often is it's not Bitcoin being repriced.

1141
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:24,440
It's Bitcoin doing the repricing.

1142
01:14:24,440 --> 01:14:27,160
Everything else is trending to zero in terms of Bitcoin.

1143
01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:32,760
And when you flip that equation to start looking at it that way, $1 million a Bitcoin doesn't

1144
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:37,480
sound all that unreasonable when you consider all of these the confluence of factors that

1145
01:14:37,480 --> 01:14:42,680
you mentioned, not only do you have all the new ETF inflows that'll be coming and are

1146
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:48,080
coming, not only do you have the having coming, which is a massive supply shock, but you have

1147
01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:53,920
the nation states, you have the psychopathic holders of last resort who are just DCAing

1148
01:14:53,920 --> 01:14:54,920
every single day.

1149
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:59,360
A little and maybe it's a few bucks, maybe it's $100, maybe it's $1,000, but they're

1150
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:04,120
just taking that away, putting it in cold storage, and that's out of circulation for

1151
01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:05,800
many years.

1152
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:10,520
And I like to think of it in terms of the paradox of that old question, what happens

1153
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:17,920
when an unstoppable force hits an immovable object and framing it as the idea of the unstoppable

1154
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:24,640
force is demand ever increasing and more voracious demand for Bitcoin.

1155
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:30,560
And the immovable object is Bitcoin's absolutely finite supply of $21 million.

1156
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:31,560
That's not moving.

1157
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:39,960
It is truly an immovable object floating around in cyberspace, but demand is only becoming

1158
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:40,960
stronger.

1159
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:45,920
So what happens when that unstoppable force hits that immovable object?

1160
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:51,040
Well, Omega, I guess, or multiple Omegas.

1161
01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:55,120
It'll be really interesting to see this plan.

1162
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:57,200
I think you're right about the Max Payne theory.

1163
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:02,240
I think it's unfortunately, because it would be nice for Bitcoin to kind of crab along

1164
01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:06,760
and upward slowly and steadily and give us many people, and especially in the developing

1165
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:09,000
world, more chance to at least accumulate a little.

1166
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:13,400
But sadly, I don't know if that's going to be the case.

1167
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:17,080
There's an interesting psychological thing here at play.

1168
01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:22,680
So when the Omega candles didn't come right after the ETFs were launched, a lot of people

1169
01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:29,200
pushed out their predictions and said, well, maybe in five years or maybe 10 years.

1170
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:34,000
And this is a failing of human psychology.

1171
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:39,320
So we don't really deal with step changes very well, which is like a change that's very

1172
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:40,440
rapid like this.

1173
01:16:40,440 --> 01:16:42,320
And then you have a new plateau.

1174
01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:48,960
So when the step change doesn't come, you don't have that vertical line like that, then

1175
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:52,520
cognitively you push it out and say, well, it'll happen here.

1176
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:56,640
But it probably is still in the same place as it's going to happen, and you're just getting

1177
01:16:56,640 --> 01:16:58,240
closer to it.

1178
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:00,720
And then you suddenly move up that step.

1179
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:04,480
So someone tweeted about it, and I was going to comment, but I lost it in my feed.

1180
01:17:04,480 --> 01:17:07,560
But I wanted to talk about that later on on Twitter.

1181
01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:09,960
But I think it's still coming very rapidly.

1182
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:15,200
If not at the having very shortly after the having, I don't think this grayscale selling

1183
01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:17,720
has pushed us out five years.

1184
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:18,720
And people are doing that.

1185
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:22,280
They're doing that same mistake that people do when something has changed, but it didn't

1186
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:24,720
happen when they thought it was going to happen.

1187
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:28,640
But I think you're just a little bit closer to that step, not that the step has moved

1188
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:33,160
over here into 2026 or something like that.

1189
01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:36,240
It's like that one very simple graph.

1190
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:42,040
I think it's used to talk about success where it's like, right when you're thinking about

1191
01:17:42,040 --> 01:17:49,080
giving up is just before you are personally about to go parabolic in whatever your domain

1192
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:50,680
of expertise is.

1193
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:54,320
And I think that that is the case here too.

1194
01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:57,360
People's memories are oddly short, I think.

1195
01:17:57,360 --> 01:18:05,400
And they're very quick, as you said, to backtrack and change and say, well, okay, yeah, this

1196
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:06,400
didn't happen.

1197
01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:09,680
So let's let's shove that out way into the future into something that feels more comfortable

1198
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:12,560
since my initial prediction doesn't seem to be right.

1199
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:17,040
But it's just that maybe you need a little bit more patience.

1200
01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:20,080
And again, I don't see a scenario.

1201
01:18:20,080 --> 01:18:27,480
I mean, perhaps, perhaps all of the inflows into the ETFs stop.

1202
01:18:27,480 --> 01:18:30,760
Perhaps no nation states adopt Bitcoin at all.

1203
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:35,380
Perhaps all those ETFs sell off all of their Bitcoin holdings.

1204
01:18:35,380 --> 01:18:37,080
Those could I don't know, maybe those could happen.

1205
01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:43,640
But you know what's not going to happen is that psychopathic army of daily DCA or weekly

1206
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:48,320
DCA or monthly DCA plebs is not going to stop buying Bitcoin.

1207
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:50,040
They're just going to keep going.

1208
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:56,640
And I don't think that people fully grasp the the power and importance of just that one

1209
01:18:56,640 --> 01:19:00,520
river of fiat that flows into Bitcoin.

1210
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:07,000
Now, once you start to incorporate the confluence of again, the ETFs and nation states and just

1211
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:13,560
a hyper inflationary fiat world in different places at different times, it starts to get

1212
01:19:13,560 --> 01:19:19,240
very hard to make an argument against a really violent and rapid ascent.

1213
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:25,800
Like, that's a I think that's a harder case to make than to say, look, it's going to be

1214
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:28,760
a step change and you're not prepared for it.

1215
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:30,920
Like, I don't know.

1216
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:35,640
But perhaps that's just perhaps that's just my over over bullishness talking.

1217
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:36,640
Who knows?

1218
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:38,640
You can never be too bullish on Bitcoin.

1219
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:43,320
But yeah, I've seen some critiques saying to like, well, Bitcoin might go to a million,

1220
01:19:43,320 --> 01:19:44,640
but then the money's worthless.

1221
01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:46,520
I don't think that's the case either.

1222
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:51,280
Because what we've seen in recent years is you could shut off the entire world economy

1223
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:53,880
and it doesn't change anything.

1224
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:58,840
You'd think that that would have some massive, massive implications, but you know, everything

1225
01:19:58,840 --> 01:20:00,560
just kept on humming.

1226
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:03,720
And yeah, we have inflation, but more or less kept going.

1227
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:10,320
So I think even with the one MBTC, we're still going to have that same purchasing power for

1228
01:20:10,320 --> 01:20:15,480
a while because it takes time for the world to adjust to that shock to the system.

1229
01:20:15,480 --> 01:20:19,720
The sad fact is the world just does not adjust really well to shocks.

1230
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:24,000
And the case in point was the COVID quote unquote pandemic, right?

1231
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:27,320
Yeah, like we shut everything down and that was really stupid.

1232
01:20:27,320 --> 01:20:30,840
But it took years for that to play out.

1233
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:33,120
Even the inflation was not instant.

1234
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:36,560
So I think Bitcoin will have that same effect.

1235
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:42,320
Like Bitcoin will reprice very rapidly because it is traded and moved across markets and

1236
01:20:42,320 --> 01:20:44,240
borders 24 seven.

1237
01:20:44,240 --> 01:20:45,240
Everything else is not.

1238
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:49,200
And also this is why Bitcoin is the truest measurement of value you can get because it

1239
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:51,160
doesn't stop for anything.

1240
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:55,920
If you buy a house, you get repriced once a year when you get your property assessment,

1241
01:20:55,920 --> 01:20:57,200
right?

1242
01:20:57,200 --> 01:21:01,800
Things on grocery stores, they need to check their suppliers and see if the price went up

1243
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:05,080
and then they'll get around to it weeks later to update the labels.

1244
01:21:05,080 --> 01:21:10,160
But the funny thing is I see some stores now having electronic signs so they can update

1245
01:21:10,160 --> 01:21:11,160
faster.

1246
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:15,200
But it takes a long time for these shocks to the system to permeate.

1247
01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:21,560
So I think you'll still have $1 million of Bitcoin, $1 million per Bitcoin, and cars

1248
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:25,160
will largely cost the same for a few years.

1249
01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:29,840
And then the shock will hit and then you'll start to see that change reverberate through

1250
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:32,840
that system.

1251
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:37,800
It's also interesting to think and people perhaps have forgotten that at least in the

1252
01:21:37,800 --> 01:21:45,040
US and in other Europe as well to a lesser extent, but this was the most historically

1253
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:51,280
rapid tightening of fiat monetary policy in history, basically.

1254
01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:58,520
I mean, you can look at the money supply and it actually went down a little bit.

1255
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:02,360
They sucked some of the money back out of the system.

1256
01:22:02,360 --> 01:22:06,560
And now, if you zoom out, it didn't go down very much.

1257
01:22:06,560 --> 01:22:07,960
But it did go down.

1258
01:22:07,960 --> 01:22:09,240
We have tightened.

1259
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:12,240
The printers are idling right now.

1260
01:22:12,240 --> 01:22:18,600
Meanwhile, as you mentioned earlier, the interest expense on at least the US federal

1261
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:21,240
debt is at a trillion dollars.

1262
01:22:21,240 --> 01:22:25,600
The only graph that looks like the interest expense in the debt is maybe the Bitcoin hash

1263
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:31,440
rate, which also has a similarly beautifully parabolic arc to it, signifying something

1264
01:22:31,440 --> 01:22:34,240
very different and much more hopeful.

1265
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:40,920
But people, when you have the chairman of the Federal Reserve, who controls the dollar,

1266
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:45,520
which is the world's reserve currency saying things like we are on an unsustainable path

1267
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:50,600
and we know that the only answer for them to deal with this debt is to inflate that

1268
01:22:50,600 --> 01:22:52,000
debt away.

1269
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:57,240
They have to make the debt worthless and then worthless.

1270
01:22:57,240 --> 01:22:58,920
That's the only they're not going to pay it off.

1271
01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:00,120
That's just not going to happen.

1272
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:01,480
So we are going to use our printers.

1273
01:23:01,480 --> 01:23:06,320
We're going to fire them back up at levels probably never before seen.

1274
01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:11,960
And if that's happening with the world's reserve currency, it's happening at a much larger

1275
01:23:11,960 --> 01:23:17,480
like I've shuttered to think what the Turkish leader is going to do when the US starts easing

1276
01:23:17,480 --> 01:23:20,440
and printing again.

1277
01:23:20,440 --> 01:23:21,880
It's not going to look good.

1278
01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:27,480
The US is still the prettiest horse at the glue factory, but they're still at the Fiat

1279
01:23:27,480 --> 01:23:28,480
glue factory.

1280
01:23:28,480 --> 01:23:33,480
Well, it doesn't really matter because the world is more than just the US, right?

1281
01:23:33,480 --> 01:23:36,000
Other countries will start printing too.

1282
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:40,320
Like China, it looks like they're about to start printing and they also have their ETFs

1283
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:42,160
going through in Hong Kong, right?

1284
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:51,440
So I think everyone has to print because everything is failing and the only way out is to print

1285
01:23:51,440 --> 01:23:53,600
and that printed money has to go somewhere.

1286
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:58,120
So it's this hastening that transition to the Bitcoin standard that money will go into

1287
01:23:58,120 --> 01:24:01,600
Bitcoin from the smart people.

1288
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:04,800
The dumb people will hang on to the Fiat until the very end.

1289
01:24:04,800 --> 01:24:10,880
But it is this transition period that we're seeing and it's going to happen very quickly.

1290
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:16,200
I want to be conscious of your scarce time here, but I do want to ask you one more general

1291
01:24:16,200 --> 01:24:20,080
question than one more just mini question to finish this off.

1292
01:24:20,080 --> 01:24:26,360
But I wanted to actually ask you your thoughts on China because there I know that they throw,

1293
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:33,080
I mean, their equities markets have been falling off a cliff, but of course, Bitcoin is still

1294
01:24:33,080 --> 01:24:34,400
too volatile.

1295
01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:42,400
But China is also one of the largest sovereign holders of confiscated Bitcoin.

1296
01:24:42,400 --> 01:24:46,960
There's still a good amount of hash rate in China, despite their best efforts to ban it

1297
01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:51,120
many times, Bitcoin persists.

1298
01:24:51,120 --> 01:24:59,600
And given their current economic malaise that they appear to be experiencing, do you think

1299
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:06,600
there's any possibility that China does a bit of an about face or reversal on their Bitcoin

1300
01:25:06,600 --> 01:25:09,800
stance at a nation state level?

1301
01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:14,200
Do you think there's any point where they say, you know what, actually, we are going

1302
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:18,480
to start mining Bitcoin as a sovereign, you know, as a nation.

1303
01:25:18,480 --> 01:25:23,040
And you know, by the way, private enterprise, feel free to come back to China and mine your

1304
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:24,440
Bitcoin here.

1305
01:25:24,440 --> 01:25:28,880
Do you foresee that happening or any chance of that happening?

1306
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:32,360
I think it is starting to look more likely.

1307
01:25:32,360 --> 01:25:38,280
So I like to view Hong Kong as a proxy for sentiment in mainland China.

1308
01:25:38,280 --> 01:25:44,040
So the fact that Hong Kong has been opening up and speaking more about Bitcoin and unfortunately

1309
01:25:44,040 --> 01:25:49,680
crypto, I think it is a signal that they are starting to warm up to the idea that this

1310
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:51,360
could be something.

1311
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:56,000
And a lot of countries, whether they admit it or not, look towards the US for guidance.

1312
01:25:56,000 --> 01:26:02,600
So I know in Australia, the regulator there is on the verge of approving an ETF, a proper

1313
01:26:02,600 --> 01:26:07,240
ETF, but they were waiting for that signal from the US to do so.

1314
01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:09,200
I think that's moving forward now.

1315
01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:13,880
And I believe that might be the same case for Hong Kong because I know some groups

1316
01:26:13,880 --> 01:26:17,760
that were filing for an ETF there and they were very close, but it was just waiting on

1317
01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:21,280
that signal from the US that, you know, this is the new gold.

1318
01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:22,840
And then they'll move ahead with it.

1319
01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:26,440
But again, Hong Kong is a proxy for sentiment in Beijing.

1320
01:26:26,440 --> 01:26:32,840
So if Hong Kong is opening up and Hong Kong has fallen on hard times too, I was back there

1321
01:26:32,840 --> 01:26:36,280
last year and I felt like the city was largely abandoned.

1322
01:26:36,280 --> 01:26:41,240
And I know too because a lot of friends have moved to Singapore actually.

1323
01:26:41,240 --> 01:26:45,440
So it goes back to what we were talking about earlier in the conversation that you have to

1324
01:26:45,440 --> 01:26:46,440
be open.

1325
01:26:46,440 --> 01:26:49,920
Like right now, China is largely economically closed off.

1326
01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:55,440
It's kind of its own enclosed ecosystem and it's not working.

1327
01:26:55,440 --> 01:26:57,600
They need an influx of capital.

1328
01:26:57,600 --> 01:27:02,360
And this is what I think is interesting with Latam because all of these leaders in these

1329
01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:06,320
countries are starting to open their doors to money.

1330
01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:07,680
They want investment to come in.

1331
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:10,360
They want the tourists to come in, right?

1332
01:27:10,360 --> 01:27:15,200
Instead of closing off and isolating yourself, they want to be connected to the world.

1333
01:27:15,200 --> 01:27:20,680
And they can do that through Bitcoin as this interconnector between economies and between

1334
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:21,680
people.

1335
01:27:21,680 --> 01:27:24,160
So that's got to change, I believe.

1336
01:27:24,160 --> 01:27:29,000
China will move closer to Bitcoin and they'll do an about face.

1337
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:30,640
It's just a question of when.

1338
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:36,120
But if they do choose to do so, I mean, it's going to be substantial on everything because

1339
01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:40,680
they're very close to the ASIC manufacturers.

1340
01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:46,680
The vast, vast majority of ASIC manufacturing is done in China and that's going to mean

1341
01:27:46,680 --> 01:27:49,440
that they can get hashrate up very fast.

1342
01:27:49,440 --> 01:27:54,640
And there is a large amount of energy infrastructure in China, also nuclear.

1343
01:27:54,640 --> 01:27:59,720
So while Western nations were giving up on nuclear or closing down nuclear plants, China

1344
01:27:59,720 --> 01:28:02,160
was building more nuclear plants.

1345
01:28:02,160 --> 01:28:04,840
Plus they have the hydro and everything else too.

1346
01:28:04,840 --> 01:28:11,120
So if they decide to go into Bitcoin in a big way, it's going to have massive repercussions

1347
01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:15,160
for the market as a whole.

1348
01:28:15,160 --> 01:28:17,760
It'll be fascinating to see how that does play out.

1349
01:28:17,760 --> 01:28:22,920
And I think the nuclear is such an important point too, because as you said, you know,

1350
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:26,800
as countries like Germany were spearheading the movement to get rid of all nuclear and

1351
01:28:26,800 --> 01:28:31,760
switch back to coal because they somehow determined that that's cleaner for them.

1352
01:28:31,760 --> 01:28:35,520
China not only was building out nuclear, but I think people underestimate the importance

1353
01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:41,320
of having specialists, having a workforce, having the experience in building these plants

1354
01:28:41,320 --> 01:28:47,400
to be able to actually do it at a competitive price at a large scale.

1355
01:28:47,400 --> 01:28:52,440
You know, whereas other countries have just sort of let those skills fall by the wayside,

1356
01:28:52,440 --> 01:28:58,000
you know, it's a, if you don't practice something, you tend to get a little rusty at it.

1357
01:28:58,000 --> 01:29:04,200
And especially if you decide to make it some sort of a, you know, climate pariah for literally

1358
01:29:04,200 --> 01:29:07,840
no logical reason, well, then you really lose expertise in that.

1359
01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:14,440
So it would be interesting to see as well how that sort of a shift towards positive

1360
01:29:14,440 --> 01:29:22,640
stance on Bitcoin might just, you know, affect China at a larger, in a larger way, because

1361
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:27,960
I think wherever you are in the world, Bitcoin is going to, you know, you don't change Bitcoin,

1362
01:29:27,960 --> 01:29:28,960
Bitcoin changes you.

1363
01:29:28,960 --> 01:29:30,560
And I think that's true at a personal level.

1364
01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:33,240
I think that's also likely true at a nation state level.

1365
01:29:33,240 --> 01:29:34,840
It's going to change priorities.

1366
01:29:34,840 --> 01:29:38,480
It's giving you an honest ledger as your base layer.

1367
01:29:38,480 --> 01:29:42,520
It's going to make things better in ways that are difficult to comprehend now and that are

1368
01:29:42,520 --> 01:29:47,080
going to be different across the world because everyone, as you said, every country has their

1369
01:29:47,080 --> 01:29:48,840
own pain points that you need to look at.

1370
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:56,960
But I'm hopeful and I hope that the, you know, the global mining hash war, which will be a

1371
01:29:56,960 --> 01:30:03,560
peaceful one, I think we're going to see it ramping up very quickly as, you know, we're

1372
01:30:03,560 --> 01:30:07,160
going to see Omega candles for, for price.

1373
01:30:07,160 --> 01:30:10,680
We're going to see some really interesting, all that hash rates just going to keep climbing.

1374
01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:12,680
But luckily we have the difficulty adjustment, right?

1375
01:30:12,680 --> 01:30:17,880
Every two weeks we can, we can come back to a baseline that we're supposed to be at.

1376
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:22,760
But Samson, I want to, I want to thank you for your sharing your scarce time with me.

1377
01:30:22,760 --> 01:30:24,000
This has been really fascinating.

1378
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:27,080
The last thing I would ask you, which is not at all Bitcoin related, or maybe it is depending

1379
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:31,520
on your answer, but are you reading anything right now that you would recommend that other

1380
01:30:31,520 --> 01:30:33,840
people check out?

1381
01:30:33,840 --> 01:30:36,720
I have a bunch of books on my to read list.

1382
01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:40,280
I'm just trying to think what's the latest one I opened up.

1383
01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:41,280
I haven't had time.

1384
01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:43,240
I've been too busy with Aqua Launch.

1385
01:30:43,240 --> 01:30:48,080
But generally the books I'm reading are not really anything to do with Bitcoin.

1386
01:30:48,080 --> 01:30:52,720
So I haven't actually read most people's books in this space.

1387
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:53,720
I'm sure they're all good.

1388
01:30:53,720 --> 01:30:58,760
But I find other things are interesting too, like sci-fi stories.

1389
01:30:58,760 --> 01:31:04,920
I think one of the ones I picked up recently was how to rebuild civilization after some

1390
01:31:04,920 --> 01:31:08,960
cataclysmic event, like what things you need to know and what technologies you need as

1391
01:31:08,960 --> 01:31:09,960
a base.

1392
01:31:09,960 --> 01:31:13,520
I just find it interesting, not foreshadowing anything here.

1393
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:14,520
Sure, sure.

1394
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:15,520
Yeah.

1395
01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:16,520
Hopefully not anyway.

1396
01:31:16,520 --> 01:31:17,520
Yeah.

1397
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:18,520
Things like that are interesting.

1398
01:31:18,520 --> 01:31:26,040
I would recommend it's a book that I'm, if you're a sci-fi fan, Devin Erickson, Theft

1399
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:27,040
of Fire.

1400
01:31:27,040 --> 01:31:33,720
I'm actually having him on the show next week to talk about it because it's not a book about

1401
01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:34,720
Bitcoin.

1402
01:31:34,720 --> 01:31:40,080
He does talk about Bitcoin tangentially in the book in this future that he envisions.

1403
01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:43,040
But I'm maybe about a third of the way through it right now.

1404
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:46,360
It's a great piece of sci-fi thus far.

1405
01:31:46,360 --> 01:31:47,760
So I would recommend checking out.

1406
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:53,120
He's the one who had that amazing thread with the interim CEO of OpenAI where he just

1407
01:31:53,120 --> 01:31:54,120
works to the guy.

1408
01:31:54,120 --> 01:31:55,120
I remember this now.

1409
01:31:55,120 --> 01:31:56,120
Yeah.

1410
01:31:56,120 --> 01:31:59,720
I remember he ratioed somebody, some author ratioed somebody.

1411
01:31:59,720 --> 01:32:03,040
Emmett Shearer, I think, was the OpenAI.

1412
01:32:03,040 --> 01:32:08,240
He's like the founder of Twitch and was the interim OpenAI CEO.

1413
01:32:08,240 --> 01:32:14,160
But Devin Erickson just absolutely just roasted him for suggesting a 100% inheritance tax.

1414
01:32:14,160 --> 01:32:15,840
And then it went on for a while.

1415
01:32:15,840 --> 01:32:18,760
It was a really wonderful thread.

1416
01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:20,200
But yeah, the book is solid.

1417
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:25,120
And if you're a sci-fi fan, want something not Bitcoin related, that's a good one.

1418
01:32:25,120 --> 01:32:26,120
All right.

1419
01:32:26,120 --> 01:32:28,080
I'll take it under consideration.

1420
01:32:28,080 --> 01:32:29,080
Please do.

1421
01:32:29,080 --> 01:32:30,080
Take it under advisement.

1422
01:32:30,080 --> 01:32:34,280
And then last thing is where should folks go if they want to find out more about the

1423
01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:36,160
work you're doing at Gen 3?

1424
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:39,600
If they want to download Aqua, they can go search.

1425
01:32:39,600 --> 01:32:43,040
I just checked it again today because I needed to update the app.

1426
01:32:43,040 --> 01:32:46,280
But Aqua Bitcoin on the app store, it'll pop up top of the list.

1427
01:32:46,280 --> 01:32:49,720
But anywhere else, they should go to find out what you guys are doing.

1428
01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:50,720
Yeah.

1429
01:32:50,720 --> 01:32:52,520
We're on Twitter slash X.

1430
01:32:52,520 --> 01:32:55,800
My handle's Excelion, E-X-C-E-L-L-I-O-N.

1431
01:32:55,800 --> 01:32:59,640
And then Jan3's at Jan3com.

1432
01:32:59,640 --> 01:33:01,520
Aqua's at Aqua Bitcoin.

1433
01:33:01,520 --> 01:33:06,640
And we're also on Nostra, less so these days, but trying to get back into it, just too busy.

1434
01:33:06,640 --> 01:33:08,440
But yeah, that's it.

1435
01:33:08,440 --> 01:33:14,000
I'll link it all on the show notes, Nostra and Pub's included.

1436
01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:18,480
But Samson, thank you so much because I know Bitcoin is scarce, but Bitcoin podcasts are

1437
01:33:18,480 --> 01:33:19,480
abundant.

1438
01:33:19,480 --> 01:33:23,000
So I appreciate you sharing your scarce time on this one.

1439
01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:24,000
Thanks so much.

1440
01:33:24,000 --> 01:33:26,400
And I can't wait to see what you guys do next.

1441
01:33:26,400 --> 01:33:27,400
Thanks Walker.

1442
01:33:27,400 --> 01:33:28,400
Always a pleasure.

1443
01:33:28,400 --> 01:33:30,720
And I'll see you at a conference somewhere.

1444
01:33:30,720 --> 01:33:37,240
Hopefully very soon.

1445
01:33:37,240 --> 01:33:42,200
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of the Bitcoin Podcast.

1446
01:33:42,200 --> 01:33:47,520
If you are a Bitcoin only company interested in sponsoring another fucking Bitcoin podcast,

1447
01:33:47,520 --> 01:33:51,560
head to BitcoinPodcast.net or hit me up on social media.

1448
01:33:51,560 --> 01:33:54,920
On Nostra, head to primal.net slash Walker.

1449
01:33:54,920 --> 01:33:59,920
And on Twitter, search for at Walker America or at TITCOIN Podcast.

1450
01:33:59,920 --> 01:34:05,600
You can also watch the video version of this show on X or on YouTube by going to youtube.com

1451
01:34:05,600 --> 01:34:11,280
slash at Walker America or rumble by searching for at Walker America.

1452
01:34:11,280 --> 01:34:12,280
Bitcoin is scarce.

1453
01:34:12,280 --> 01:34:15,320
There will only ever be 21 million.

1454
01:34:15,320 --> 01:34:17,840
But Bitcoin podcasts are abundant.

1455
01:34:17,840 --> 01:34:24,040
So thank you for spending your scarce time to listen to another fucking Bitcoin podcast.

1456
01:34:24,040 --> 01:34:36,200
Until next time, stay free.