Some people are like, oh, you just spent like $10 million on a banana, idiot.
And I'm just like, dude, every dollar you have is at the opportunity cost of buying Bitcoin.
Did you see what just happened?
How many trillions were poured into gold not too long ago?
You know what would happen when that happens to Bitcoin?
I get gas with Bitcoin and stuff too.
Like I sell Bitcoin on the spot and get gas.
This is not the freaking XRP jungle.
Like where the hell can you use XRP?
Everybody knows social media doesn't make them feel good anymore.
There's like such a storm brewing.
I think Primal and Noster is the ultimate on board to Bitcoin for me.
I've never felt Bitcoin more alive and I've always wanted that.
It's magic every time. Every time I zap someone, it's magic.
Every time I spend it, it doesn't lose its magic to me.
You guys have a new release coming out here soon.
Can you hint at anything?
I'm not asking you to spill the beans, but like...
I got a little bit of beans.
We actually have a deadline.
Usually we don't do that to ourselves because it's stressful.
The one thing I could spill is...
I can't really hint at any of it things, but it's going to be huge.
Is this nature's response to this whole centralization of power and control?
I think so.
And that's what fires me up to, you know, go to work and think about this and shitpost
and educate every day and zap like a crazy person.
Paul, dude, glad we got a chance to do this.
we were just talking off camera that, I mean, we, so we met each other. When was, when was
Nostarica? Was that 2023? February of 2023, March of 2023. So we're coming, actually we're coming
right up on the three-year anniversary that that's wild. So Primal's three-year anniversary
is when we're trying to ship 3.0, March 13th, Friday, March 13th, 13th. I love a good Friday,
the 13th. Um, I, I think it's got good juju. I don't believe in the bad juju of it, you know,
yeah i'm forgetting what's the actual the origin of that is like i'm forgetting a bunch of uh
a bunch of people died i think was the was the thing right was it like a bunch of priests got
i'm trying to remember it's the increase really i've never i never looked into why
a bunch of priests died that sounds pretty bad yeah you know i remember it wasn't nice um let's
we'll look it up just because now it's gonna bug me yeah but it went down just like two miles over
there let's see uh oh i guess it was just howl is unlucky for a while i was the arrest of the
night's templar on friday october 13 1307 by king philip the fourth of france it's often cited as a
key albeit possibly coincidental event that solidified the date's negative reputation okay
what a powerful meme we got it 1307 i know in a minute 2026 you were uh
okay so three years ago we were at nosta rica that was an incredible vibe uh we carl and i
weren't even going to go at first and then suzy like uh suzy bdds convinced us to basically and
got jack to to note at us being like hey come and it was like well shit how do you i'd even say no
to that next thing i know i've got bit by some sort of strange bug that i'm not even sure of
ankle swells up to be the size of my face oh no paramedic is uh is like treating me with a z-pack
and i'm like this is still a great time even though my leg is like just swelling up like a
storm you guys he had like an ear infection i think too during nostrica yeah yeah yeah he did
he did man it's it's uh it's wild it feels like just yesterday but it's been three years and now
it's like okay looking back uh do you think that you would be if you were to like let's say go back
in time to that nostrica you could have a view into like what you're doing today where noster is
at today is it is it where you expected is it as it exceeded expectations has it lagged where where
is where's your head at with that i don't think you would have like i would have believed you if
you said that i'd be working full-time on a nostril client named primal just because i just happened
to show up in my backyard to this cool thing that a bunch of bitcoiners were going to show up at
saying that it was important and it happened to be just like right where i was living it's just
kind of poetic how it all came to be um but yeah i mean there was so much hype in the beginning
and do you remember i mean i am a complete normie not anymore really with vibe coding
in terms of the bitcoin community i am a normie in terms of like tech and everything
so i still remember me and my buddy matt like putting together our end pubs on like iris.to
and like trying to figure it out he felt like such a hacky cool guy right like oh my god i got it
working oh can you see this note no you can't all right why i have no idea but that was all so fun
and everybody had so much fun with all the energy that was getting poured into Nostra
and we needed that jackening to happen.
Now, in terms of user adoption today, it's like,
kind of not where I thought it would be exactly,
but also it's just things take time and hype waves happen
and we're still here, which is important.
And we have such a stronger foundation now
and there's another wave coming, I believe.
Well, that's the interesting thing too.
It's like, I think a lot of us thought, especially being there at, at, uh, Nostarica was like,
it felt like Nostarica was about to really, really just blow up like crazy.
It's maybe a good thing that it didn't just because of like the infrastructure was,
was not there yet.
Yeah.
There were some great clients already.
There was a ton of cool stuff being done, but like bootstrapping an open source, you
know, bootstrapping on top of an open source protocol, like that's obviously going to have
different growing pains than scaling up, you know, a centralized social media platform.
And so it's like, now I feel like there are so many incredible clients. There's so much stuff
that's being done over and above just what the, um, what, what just like the, the social media
use case has been too, like Noster being used as a backbone for so much else. And so I feel like
it's just, it's, uh, we're at a much better place, more stable place now. So we're ready. We can take
the millions and millions of people. Now you guys are free to come now. Yeah. Yeah. Hop on over.
we're ready for you yeah but yeah there's like such a storm brewing uh we actually just had um
a little low-key nostril dab conference i was the only normie there and but in uh nosara
in november and it was really cool getting to hang out with all these different members of
the community we had like pablo rabble um and then the white noise guys all came down and it was just
it's good to be in the flesh again because so much more happens when everybody's together
and but just thinking about this perfect storm of stuff coming like
the whole white noise team i feel like people are needing this decentralized style signal type app
um like and then divine coming back on nostr that's absolutely enormous and
olaz is coming back pablo so it's all happening still it's just what's going to be the thing that
you know pours it over to mass adoption or like even just more adoption or you know steady adoption
yeah it's the whole the whole vine thing did you use vine back in the day like yeah i do i i did
too i i loved it like i what i loved about it was the fact that it was so simple and people don't
remember like if you especially for like people who may be younger they may not know that like
instagram wasn't always like a you know basically video first platform it's basically what is
everything basically copied the, the, or, you know, uh, tried to be TikTok on steroids.
But at first it was like, Instagram was just photos. Vine came out, Vine blew up and Instagram
adding video was essentially a response by Instagram to Vine's popularity to try and be
like, Hey, look, we have, we have videos too. But like Vine, I love, I love the fact that you just,
you were forced to use that very narrow form of content creation where it's like hold and record
they splice together. You get what, seven seconds. Like it forced you to be really creative and just
just think outside the box, be authentic. Like I loved it. And so like when I saw rabble
was bringing that back, I'm like, this is really, really cool. I I've downloaded it.
I have not played around on it yet. I've been, uh, too, too busy podcasting nonstop, but
I need to, I need to, because I think it's like, it's awesome. It's just like, that's
the kind of stuff that people get really, really excited about because I think it's
like a mix of nostalgia, like a nostalgic, a nostalgic app, but built on top of new rails
and with greater capabilities.
That's a pretty cool combination.
Yeah, and they're not going to know they're using Nostra.
That's the whole theme now, right?
BitChat, nobody knows they're using Nostra.
Divine, they're not going to know they're using Nostra.
So far, all we've had, seriously, as marketing firepower
was Jack tweeted about Nostra,
and we're building another app.
You guys, I'm telling you, you need another app.
So we've been marketing Nostra.
I think we're about to exit that phase with Primal,
not with this next release but with what's coming in the future um but it's exciting just build a
useful app use nostrils the back end and next thing you know we have like a thriving economy
on there and we already do which is so fun too like all this stuff was it's been theorized i
remember when i first got into crypto and bitcoin and web thinking about web 3 stuff and like oh
there's going to be these decentralized marketplaces uber's going to be decentralized there's going to
be blockchains for this for that now we're like wait i don't think you need all these other chains
and hype tokens and billionaire vc funds pumping bags of this strange social media last people like
i don't know so i feel like net noster is the answer to so many of those old like the web 3
um narratives it's such it's such a good point because for a while it was like this assumption
that with all the ETH stuff and all the different, you know, what was it, Farcaster on ETH or all
these, all these different like web three based initiatives, they all just basically, they were
just a front for being able to somehow have a token on top of it. Right. But it's like, I think
that's, and that probably maybe made Noster have less hype initially. Cause there wasn't a way to
just like, you know, somehow scam people or get rich quick on it or whatever else. It was like,
no, no, no. Like it's just a protocol for communication. We happen to be using another
protocol for you know money on top of it bitcoin but like you could put anything you want on there
you could use something else it's just no no one else has a desire to do that because you know it's
uh well ultimately they were just trying to scam people in the first place no airdrop bro when
airdrop yeah no airdrop oh my god what what's what's even the point then i don't know i think
the incentives because of that the lack of any sort of tokenization or you know anything related
that on those for the incentives are just better like the developers that are building here too
are more i would say value aligned with like just generally uh that open source ethos and
trying to just build valuable useful tools not trying to build a tool as a pretense for extracting
value from people but instead to try and give value and honestly like on those starts like
the vibes are just better like i remember when blue sky was coming out too and it was like oh
man like blue sky like you know jack obviously had funded some of that too but boy talk about
bad vibes man i i went on blue sky for a while and then i was like i this i don't think this is
a place for me i don't feel very welcome here it doesn't feel like a safe space i mean yeah for me
neither but to each their own right i mean they'll say the same thing about nostril probably
it's true it's true well i want to ask you too paul because you you've done a pretty killer job
on the content creation side,
not just like on Noster specifically,
but on centralized platforms.
We were talking about Instagram before this,
putting out good aesthetic content,
but also driving people toward Noster.
And I think Primal broadly has done a good job of that.
Is that, I mean, how has the strategy
been working overall so far?
Because it seems like the strategy
from like the outside looking in,
in terms of what Primal's been doing,
is like, okay, get people over to Noster period,
a rising tide lifts all boats if they want to use primal great obviously you guys would want them to
use that but i know from talking to milion you know he's basically told me multiple times like
look the biggest thing is they just start using noster they can use any client they want on there
we hope they use primal but like that's the beauty of noster how have you seen the response
on centralized platforms like instagram like do you are you getting a lot of interest do you still
have a lot of people who are just like think it's some i mean do they even know it's a bitcoin or
thing? Have they heard of it? Is it getting into onto people's radar or are we still like
crazy early just even from an awareness standpoint? Yeah. Unfortunately we're still like crazy early.
Um, yeah, I've planted a bunch of seeds on Instagram and thanks for all the compliments.
Um, but I haven't done a great job of like really converting. And then my closer friends who are in
kind of the creative space and the health space, they all get it. It's just what's going to actually
make them spend any time and stay that's the question i haven't quite figured out and i don't
have a great answer for them right now in the current state of primal and even it's just a
social media use case of nostr it's because like yeah there's it's forward thinking um it's sovereign
which everybody's uh you know concerned with the sovereignty and the not being programmed by zuck
and all that you know censorship stuff they'll get that but like regular creators need to be on
those other platforms because that's for their audiences and that's how people are getting their
word out right like so they got to be over there and even just like mom and dad and um you know
just like people that aren't creating consumers their friends are on there so they want to be
there too so like it's definitely a tricky thing trying to just get pure normies over there so we
need to create like maybe another reason not just for social media for people to come over and that
could be the bitcoin wallet stuff like it's an easy to use bitcoin wallet um and that's going to
change soon too um and for a future release i'm really excited about that too it's just going to
be a useful app for anybody like i could say my mom my mom and my dad will be able to get used from
it whereas now it's just like we have a social network without too many broad-ranging perspectives
or you know communities on there yet so i in terms of uh like the let's say one of the big
criticisms of Noster just generally is like, it's just this echo chamber. It's just a bunch of,
you know, Bitcoiners talking about Bitcoin or talking about Noster, which is like fair,
but also I have seen and tried to follow is like, whenever I see somebody that's like,
I saw some guy recently that was like, um, just playing violin every day and posting videos of
himself playing violin. I was like, I'll, I'll zap that. I'll give this guy a follow. That's
awesome. Like, are there other, uh, what, what accounts do you have that you follow that are
kind of outside of, let's say, just the like, I'm here for Bitcoin, or I'm here because I'm
just super obsessed with open source and Noster. Like, what do you, what have you seen kind of on
the general creative side that you thought was like, uh, just, just a cool account that you'd
recommend people check out? Um, that's what you can know. My brain is so melted right now. Yeah.
um yeah so many of my friends are just into the whole bitcoin thing it's like
it's mostly an echo chamber but
like i don't even have a good answer for you i know okay we'll come back to we'll come back to
yeah maybe maybe put a different way like but you brought up the point about okay it's really hard
to get people to come over and stay when their audience like they're sometimes very big audience
is on Instagram or TikTok or X, whatever.
Do you think, is that just like,
is that just something that is going
to just continue to take time?
Or is that something where it's like,
hey, we're missing this from the experience on Nostra.
We need this other type of social app on Nostra.
We need something else on Nostra.
Or is it just like, look,
there's a bunch of audience capture
on these other platforms.
You can't, and because they're centralized,
you can't take that audience with you in any easy way. And so it's just like, listen, it's just a
function of like, hey, we just need more time or like, or do you think it's no, we there's stuff we
need to build still that these creators would really want and that they would come here specifically
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Yeah. Well, it's kind of all of the above.
So we did just see another app. Just go Buku Varo.
Went number one in the app store. It's called like Up something.
do you remember did you see that it was uh upscrolled it was called upscrolled it went
number one in social for like a day or two i don't know what happened to it now but that's just the
proof that it's possible so but they weren't also uh marketing any protocol it was like come to the
app so where we've felt before is like marketing nostre so hard like okay well then where do i go
nostre.com you instantly get confused and scared see ya so um but yeah that upscrolled went number
one and it was for a specific reason and it was for a community which happened to be it was something
to do with palestine israel i don't know what's going on with that but just like a certain group
of people were attracted to it and boom super viral overnight um so it's all that that's possible
even with people not being able to bring their audiences and whatnot like it's possible for
primal to unlock something it might not even be something we plant it might just be people get
turned on to it for a second and then just goes but we want to provide all like you know the
infrastructure that people are used to.
One other thing and I just vibe coded this the other day and I showed the team cause I a dev now you guys It my dream to be a dev I guess I always wanted to have vertical scroll and primal for when you get on a video with us on the trending feed or on somebody media page where you can just consume all their content like this because that how we consume information
We're talking about divine.
That physically chained how we consume information, the vertical scroll, whether you like it or not.
And a lot of creators are optimizing for that.
Like I do a lot on Instagram.
So I put a vertical scroll into Primal with like super clean Instagram UX with a fricking
zap button that when you go up and down, it like vibrates your finger and it goes like
more, more, more, more, more.
And then you go down, it goes down and then you could zero it out.
But oh my God, I've never felt Bitcoin more alive.
And I've always wanted that.
Because there's been a couple of TikTok exoduses during Primal.
I'm like, oh, I'm like, we kind of wish we had vertical scroll, but that's not really
what we're building.
We're never going to want to build to compete with like Instagram and TikTok with their algorithms or anything.
We are going to add algorithms and stuff, but that's probably, we don't want to like go try to play that battle.
That's not something we want to do.
Well, because that's the thing.
It's like, you're not going to be able to, and this isn't like a, it's not a dig on Primal or on any Nostra client.
And it's just the reality, like, look, trying to compete with the TikToks and the Instagrams, like at their own game, is going to be next to impossible, right?
Like, you have to change the game a little bit.
And like, the Bitcoin side of things, to me, like, it is shocking to me that that hasn't been more of a selling point for more creators.
We're so crazy.
Like, we literally tip people with Bitcoin.
Are you kidding me?
What I think is going on is we're literally building the foundation for a much better creator economy.
but i could be crazy or it might just be like this small segment of us that come over and we
still can thrive we don't need billions of users to extract from to be profitable no we just need
some loyal customers to be profitable and you know make money and make a good product for
for our users without extracting from i wonder too like obviously things like patreon got incredibly
popular in terms of just having a direct way to support you know creators journalists whatever
might be support anyone you want you know as a patron basically noster seems to be a really even
easier way to do that and on a let's say a much more distributed basis obviously i'm surprised
that we haven't seen that sort of use case take off a little bit more like especially just depending
on where you are in the world what capital controls are there uh what access you have to even something
like patreon or to the banking system generally it's like that's the beauty of bitcoin is that
and on no stir you basically have a social wallet where you can connect with any anyone you want
creator or memer or just random you know your uncle bob and you can zap them without needing
to worry about what country they're in or what currency they use or anything else because you're
all just using the same same currency you're using bitcoin the same money and so i'm curious if we're
going to see that side just from like a pure maybe people aren't even using it for the social side
as much maybe they're just using it like look this is where you can go if you want to support
my work just go zap me on no stir like maybe that ends up being like a really easy way for people to
get around some of the the problems with the legacy system but again it's like you're right
we're crazy like we're all crazy here we're crazy are just we're crazy early you know yeah crazy
spending your bitcoin are you kidding me nobody spends bitcoin tipping bitcoin no bitcoin's slow
oh freaking it's magic every time every time i zap someone it's magic every time i spend it
it doesn't lose its magic to me um but yeah crazy early also like it is just this i i really i'm not
backing down and i don't think this will ever like primal and oster is the ultimate onboard
to bitcoin for me still i don't think that hasn't changed since i've like started zapping and since
I started working with Primal. It is this fundamentally new experience, first experience,
first touch for people with Bitcoin. And all the people I've just onboarded and showed them,
they're like, what? And yeah, maybe it's a little gimmicky. It's not like people are going to really
earn a living yet doing that, but the fact that it's possible. And I was on Twitter this morning
and they're talking about X money. Elon was reposting and posting some screenshots about
x money did you see a little bit of that yeah i just saw that pop up and i'm like well here it is
we chat of the west elon like he's gonna he owns all the infrastructure i mean sure he's trying to
make it and then encrypt it underneath whatever but just the fact that he he'll be able to turn
on and off accounts and you'll have to put your real id to it like just doesn't even sound like
I mean, better it's Elon than someone else maybe,
but he's just a man and they're just people.
And it's so cool you can do this without permission.
And this might be one of Nostra's
and Bitcoin's biggest marketing moments as well.
Like, hey, here, come do this.
Attach any wallet you want.
Be anywhere in the world.
Everyone has access to it.
I don't know.
It's beautiful.
It really is.
And yeah, in terms of the X money thing,
again so much of this that part of like not just okay that like elon okay is a better like at least
a i think a better steward of these things than most other people would be at this point like i
think he does truly care about free speech i think he cares about freedom of expression i i think that
he's also though like he's a he's a person and you know you never know what sort of pressures may be
exerted on him and that is the cool thing about noster is that like there's so much optionality
there is no single throat to choke, right?
There's a bunch of different throats
and you're not going to be able to choke them all, hopefully.
But the tying of the real world, you know,
physical identity to our digital identities,
whether that be for the convenience of payments
through X money, or whether that be through governments
like in Australia or the UK or wherever that are saying,
oh, we need to ID you so you can use social media
to protect the children, you know, just protect the children.
Like this all just gets toward a social credit system, basically.
where anything you do online or offline is ultimately tied back to that digital identity,
which they're tracking, tracing, connecting with your bank accounts, and then able to shut off if
you step out of line. And it's like, people just seem to be sort of sleepwalking to that. But I
guess it's the old thing of like, people will trade freedom for convenience, the majority of
the time, you know what I mean? Yeah, convenience is often the enemy. Yeah, I know, I like, what are
we building here is that really what we're building against i mean i think so there's still
other things to be solved out like it's like solved um but is this nature's response to this
whole centralization of power and control i think so and that's what fires me up to you know go to
work and think about this and shitpost and educate every day and zap like a crazy person
it's this amazing beautiful alternative that we have can i ask you too on the uh on the promise
that you said you guys have a new release coming out here soon what can you hint at anything
without you know divulging i'm not asking you to spill the beans but like i got a little bit of
beans you got if you got something you can talk about like i'd love to know kind of what's coming
in the pipe for this you said it was uh march march 13th right friday march 13th or 16th so
we actually have a deadline we usually don't do that to ourselves because it's stressful
but the one thing i could spill is we're doing maxi madness on primal so on buster so which is
fun so that means polls and there's some fun stuff with the polls i haven't played with it yet and i'm
really kinesthetic learner i gotta like go play and see it and everything but um yeah so there's
gonna be polls and you're gonna be able to attach like zaps to it too so it'll be extra interesting
oh that's super so uh as in like the voting will not just be like the x style voting where it's
like you're just voting it's like how many sats like i could send one sat to the this answer or i
can send you know a thousand sats is that that's an element to it so you'll be able to it's like
it's kind of clear thing like this is awesome you just permissionlessly do this let's go dude
that's sick i'm super stoked for that because that's been one thing i've i've been missing from
noster is the ability to put out polls like you can do a lot of just like okay yeah just ask people
for feedback in the comments but like there's something nice about having a poll being able
to get the answer and then i mean if you're also getting sats in response to that poll like that's
a whole new thing like you know you make a really controversial poll that people want to vote on
with their sats like you're bringing in a lot of satoshis yeah maybe i don't know i know so i mean
it's it's live on other clients but i think when primal does it'll really you know kind of
make it a real thing on nostril so it's gonna be a fun experiment can't really hint to any other
does that's okay it's okay but it's gonna be huge i'm i'm stoked for it well let me let me ask you
this uh you mentioned you know one of the things you'd like to see is kind of the vertical uh you
know vertical scroll for videos and whatnot and that's the you know you vibe coded something out
already maybe this will actually get merged in there but in terms of like i think you said something
about okay we're not that's not the direction that like we're trying to go with primal what is kind of
the the vision where you guys see yourselves because i know there's like a lot of stuff being
built out to like the primal kind of creator studio and all these other things what's kind
of the long-term goal in terms of how you guys are positioning yours excuse me positioning yourself
in the nose traverse excuse me okay without giving anything away um yeah we built studio it's all this
kind of infrastructure for when we get a bunch of creators over here and the long-term vision
will not change we want to we want nostril to be the backbone of the global town square
and we want to do that and build a social experience in a way that is actually saving
you time and we're going to monetize your time saved instead of monetizing your time spent
so how we're going to pull that off can't tell you yet but i but but we do have a plan and it
yeah i'll leave it at that okay okay yeah it's gonna be fine okay so i'm i'm always now i'm
even more intrigued. I wasn't treated already. Are there, uh, are there features in other Noster
clients that you guys look at and you're like, oh damn, that's really cool. Like we should roll that
in. Like, do you guys, because this is like a, you know, people are building out in the open.
You can see what other folks are building. Most of the time it's open source. How much does that
factor into what you guys are doing? Or do you kind of have your roadmap? You stick to that.
And it's like, you're not, uh, not as concerned with what other people are building. Okay. They've
got something cool. Yeah. Great. Let them have that. People can use it over there if they want
to how much does that impact the way you guys think about like what direction you're taking
this do you know what i'm saying yeah so the way i see it right now except the vertical scroll thing
unless somebody comes out with the killer feature which i don't know i don't know if we'll ever be
able to kind of catch up fully to all the legacy platforms i think we're about complete and we
don't really fomo other ones too much like you know sometimes people will come out with the voice
voice no should we go add that guys i don't know stay focused so that's not something we're really
too worried about we at one point wanted to you know be you were thinking about videos and bigger
videos and files and as you probably know it's not the best experience um long form video and
stuff on nostr that's a direction we're going away from right now um so then maybe one day we'll want
add more log for videos and have better ux around that um yeah but we've got the reads we got the
anybody can write an article by the way a lot of people think that it's only studio you just go to
primal.net on the web and you can rip yourself an article i don't see more reads on there um yeah
nice let me ask you switching gears a little bit uh you are a new dad now uh six months into it i'm
not too far ahead i'm only a couple years into it how is dad life treating you man dad life
it's the best man i crave uh baby smiles so six months is awesome too because like she's she's
she's here she's kind of landed but she's not running all over the place right now so i hear
this is like the golden window is that is that true yeah it's like the time where you if you set
them down somewhere they just kind of like stay there and then you get to the point where very
quickly it's like you you can't just set them down somewhere because they are they're gone like
they're they're well crawling around then running around and like then they just don't stop moving
and like that's awesome too because you can do a lot of different things but you just have to pay
a lot more attention too because it's just like they are they get mobile very fast and then they
do not stop so yeah enjoy the like everybody always says like you know oh like you know the
next part the next part like it gets better and better like and it does but it's also like i don't
know each part is so it's so amazing it's like you got to savor that experience when you're in it
because man it it's true what they say like you blink and it's like they're a year old and you
blink and they're two years old i'm sure i'm gonna blink and he's gonna be you know 18 yeah it's
ridiculous like it's freaking boomers are all right they were right all the cliches were right
they were yeah they were all telling the truth yeah it's annoying like for real is six months
already are you kidding me but i think my favorite part of all that is just how much it brings a
family together this is first grandchild grandkid for both sides of our parents we both have both of
our parents still so it's a major blessing for both of them then flying down to costa rica i was
just like mom i gotta go to austin can you come to costa rica two hours later i booked a flight
i come you know they're just craving uh the baby smiles as well and it's awesome to see that
and just watching my sisters with them, with Maya.
The family side of it is like, it is amazing.
And same for us, it's the first grandkid of the family.
So it's huge.
I was just curious, how long have you guys been in Costa Rica?
We've been down here since,
I've been down here since December of 2021.
Okay.
And then I think it was about June of 2022,
I magically moved to what was becoming the Bitcoin jungle.
um and it's like okay so now i get to live out my thesis of uh living off of bitcoin
and seeing this place evolve in the last three four years has been insane
did you know it were you a bitcoiner already when you moved into a bitcoin jungle or like
was that part of it or did you become a bitcoiner as as part of that move so i i was you know class
of 2017, but I didn't meet anybody until November of 2021, I believe was the first conference in El
Salvador. And I got to meet a couple of guys from Cash App, including Miles in El Salvador.
And then I was like, why have I never met a Bitcoiner in my life? What have I been,
because I've been on Twitter, on the Reddit, you know, just consuming 40 hours per week back then
too like you know just consuming and consuming and i was too broke to even go to the conference
i was just kind of like driving from california to central america um and i got to meet these guys
and also met john vallas and it like kind of filled this intellectual hole this i don't know
maybe spiritual hole in a way um that yeah getting to meet these people in real life
was amazing so I kind of started there and then I had to purge everything by the time I got to
Costa Rica because I was like jobless and basically camping I had a car and I had some shit coins and
I purged them completely and it's like okay now all I have is Bitcoin and now it's more convenient
for me to spend Bitcoin and then I ended up here in Bitcoin jungle where you know I got some work
to do and stuff anyways but yeah now i get to like fully live out the thesis of living on a
bitcoin standard and i luckily i get paid in bitcoin and it's um i mean it's not always easy
but um it's cool it's what we all want it's what we're all going to and actually getting to play
with it and play with our bitcoins here every day feels right it's one of the other reasons i love
like your videos about spending bitcoin because you hear all the time from people
like not from bitcoiners but from people who like to flood bitcoin like nobody uses bitcoin
as money bitcoin's too you know slow like they ignore the presence of the lightning network they
like to just you know dig up these old tropes about bitcoin but i love your videos because
it's just like hey you know at the farmer's market just send send this lady some sats got
some you know fresh fruit got some whole milk whatever it is like those videos i think are so
important for people to see like look all it takes is somebody willing to accept it and somebody
willing to spend it and it happens like that and like these and you could just do that around
yeah like it's but it's like it's magic and like i'm like shout out to you for making these videos
because again people need to see that kind of stuff because it you know and it helps like you've
got you know you've got cool hair you're always shirtless like it makes people stop that scroll
i think i hope you know like it makes them pay attention but like though have you gotten because
you post those on like centralized social media too obviously bitcoin obviously people most people
have at least heard of it now like pretty much almost everyone's heard about bitcoin do you still
get a lot of the like bitcoin is a scam type things even on those videos or like you're faking
it bitcoin doesn't work or like what kind of responses do you get to that stuff oh a lot like
oh that wasn't bitcoin bitcoin's too slow oh how's the fees and then some people are like oh you just
spent like 10 million dollars on a banana idiot and i'm just like dude every dollar you have is
at the opportunity cost of buying bitcoin so anytime you spend money that could have been
10 million dollars of bitcoin or whatever you know i'm like okay that guy's bullish there's a huge
there's i think the bitcoiners are the smallest minority on instagram i think a lot of bitcoiners
forget that twitter is tiny social network compared to like instagram and tiktok even
there's way more xrp people on there i think um so we got to make our presence known even on these
other platforms uh feel pretty strongly about that and it's cool to see it actually working
in some of these videos like taking off um yeah it's really bullish i was just walking around this
festival last weekend and a bunch of people stopped me and were like love your bitcoin videos i was
like really people are seeing this stuff it's hilarious all right um yeah so i more i i'm like
man i've filmed this same video 25 times already but no more that's like just my little role to
play in all this and we each have our role like you're doing this podcast that's why i didn't
realize in 2021 before i met any bitcoiners was that like me being on the sidelines you know that
ain't it everybody's little story matters we all gotta post we're all gonna be part of this thing
and feed it with our time and energy.
And it all matters.
And it's all compounding.
I mean, amen to that.
And just to go back to what you said about,
let's say the lack of Bitcoiners on Instagram.
I hadn't used Instagram in a while.
Like I would occasionally post stuff
on like my personal account,
which I keep private on there,
just like stay in touch with old friends and whatnot.
But I started one for the podcast
and started looking around,
like just searching,
like if you just search for Bitcoin
and see what videos pop up and it's like oh my god most of these are just like xrp shills or other
crypto shills it's not about shit coins and like they have they you know they hashtag bitcoin so
it pops up in there but it's like there's very few bitcoiners who are actively posting
on instagram and the ones that are like most of the accounts i mean mine is like pretty small on
there it's like 17 1700 you know followers on there for the podcast account like these these
crypto accounts on there though it's every like it's and it's like gnarly because a lot of them
especially the xrp shills they tend to shit on bitcoin and then shill xrp like that seems to be
kind of their mo which is a bummer because it's like if you're just randomly consuming content
on instagram maybe you don't know much about bitcoin and you go and like someone stumble
across some of these videos like you're getting the worst possible information you're getting the
worst possible the worst intro like it's awful yeah i went to go make a response video i'll
probably rip it tomorrow or whatever Like you know fighting the shitcoin narratives is not fully a waste of time It kind of is but like me and you kind of are the OGs
It's our turn to fight them for a bit.
And then we could just go retire on Nostra.
You know,
I don't know.
I,
a lot of,
a lot of people that were just pure Bitcoin maxis and stuff on that I would
follow.
But when I was kind of learning and on my journey and when I used to hold XRP
and everything,
um they really did steer me in the right direction i feel like now it's time for us to fire back
yeah and i still can't believe it exists this is not the freaking xrp jungle like where the
hell can you use xrp it's literally just the monkey tiny brain just thinking oh it's 10 cents
now it can go to 40 cents or a dollar and i'm gonna be rich it's like did you see what just
happened how many trillions were poured into gold not too long ago you know what happened
that happens to bitcoin bull you know you could just have a deflationary or not deflationary but
you know you can just save in something that doesn't inflate away like guaranteed to zero
dude it's it's rough because and i agree with you it's it's one of those things where when it
comes to the shitcoiner narratives it's a little bit tiresome to like constantly feel like you're
you need to battle them but i agree it's like we're you know we're we're not oh geez i didn't
get into bitcoin until 2020 i i've ignored bitcoin for more years like i first heard about bitcoin in
like 2014 ignored it um was just like whatever nerd to my friend who was trying to talk about it like
should look at you now attention to him didn't ignored it again in 2017 and bought like a light
coin instead because i was like i don't have much money right now i can't afford a full bitcoin
dude that's i mean jack might be right what's your stance on that the bits or sets
the whole i like sats i like sats but i see the argument for bits i just think it's like
boy i don't know i go back and forth in this i said i maybe i have a bias towards sats like just
because it's what i'm used to uh and i have to like train my brain to see like whenever i see
a wallet that has them denominated as bits like takes me a second i'm like how many bitcoin are
in there and it's okay no so like it is it is a retraining thing no but when i'm teaching someone
like i always go these are bits of bitcoin it makes more sense it does it does it does but i'm
kind of a sat match as well yeah it's just it's sticky you know it's sticky but yeah i'm glad that
there are at least different options for it maybe people uh you know whatever appeals to them more
they'll identify with that but yeah it's it's it's tough with the shit corners because they just
continue i feel like the shit coins are very obviously still a dying breed like they're going
to keep coming out and keep coming out but like we know that over a long enough time horizon they're
all trending to zero versus bitcoin the problem is that i think and i probably wouldn't be as vocally
as anti-shit coin in a vocal way as i am if it was just gonna be a waste of time if it weren't
for the fact that so many people get burned by shit coins get into shit coins get burned by it
and then assume Bitcoin is the same thing,
and then ignore Bitcoin for another five years,
like I did.
And I don't want to see that happen.
I don't want to see people get burned by shitcoins.
Sometimes maybe that's the only way
they're going to start learning about Bitcoin
is by getting burned.
But I think for the majority of people,
they think that crypto and Bitcoin is all the same.
Bitcoin gets lumped in that bucket.
And so they assume Bitcoin must be a scam too,
because all their exposure to crypto
has been getting scammed, getting rugged, whatever.
And I think that does hurt Bitcoin adoption for the people that need it most.
Yeah.
And that's why it's cool to kind of live it here because it's just like, okay, look, three years ago, my eggs were this price and now they're this price.
They're this much cheaper now.
I remember spending Bitcoin at 17K around here.
So even though we had a fat dip, it's just like, well, you win some, you lose.
how many businesses in the area uh in in bitcoin jungle are accepting bitcoin i mean over 100
easy with all the farmers markets and like it's not hard to live on a bitcoin standard here
and then the tool that bull bitcoin made here where you could sell bitcoin with very limited
low kyc just a phone number and email and it goes into their venmo style account here
sell it to a phone number so i get gas with bitcoin and stuff too like i sell bitcoin on
the spot and get gas um pretty rad so you just do that down here um and yeah it's not i don't i know
of like one shop that used to accept it and doesn't anymore people just take your money and now since
they have that easy off ramp you know they can have a very low risk like they can get it and sell
it right away for less of a fee than a credit card so that's part of the sauce that makes this happen
And it's really cool too to see it all happen at a grassroots level.
Like Lee, I'm at the Bitcoin Jungle office right now, by the way.
Nice.
We've got a gym and a sauna and an ice bath down here.
I'm on the third floor.
There's a co-work downstairs.
The kids hang out usually in the afternoons.
It's all coming together.
But Lee used to walk around with a bucket of cash to cash people out after farmer's markets if they wanted to.
But that was back in the early days.
So it's evolving.
I don't know, bucket.
maybe a little who knows fanny pack yeah no it's it's cool because i think these circular economies
whether they be like i think no store is probably the biggest you know circular economy in the in
the digital space right now which is awesome but the physical ones i think that is such an
important thing and does really show people like something doesn't have to be massive and
nationwide or whatever for it to make a huge impact like it is often enough to just have that
like local community, have that community be tight. And like everybody there benefits from
spending and receiving Bitcoin. And like, that is a beautiful thing, I think. And I hope we get
towards more of that in terms of getting back to smaller communities, tight knit communities,
communities where everybody knows everybody, there's high trust within the community,
but you can still use this amazing trustless money on top of that. Right. Like we want trustless
money, but we want trust in people. Like ideally, you know, we don't want, we don't want to not be
able to trust our fellow human that we're living next to but i feel like we just people have gotten
so used to spreading out uh or being in really really really big cities where it's like you're
just a you know uh just a face like nobody really knows you it's a pretty cool thing to see what
bitcoin has enabled for some of these communities whether it be like in you've i'm sure you've
probably surfed in uh in elzante before like that's that's just a that's an awesome vibe there
and like this i i want to see more of these circular communities popping up and go visit
more of them and like i think they're only going to continue increasing because the ones that are
out there like you know it's like it's successful like it is actually working you know what i mean
yeah exactly and this is like this is the end stage of bitcoin and you can kind of choose to
live that now and now it's even easier to kind of choose that within with your friends and family
um even in the states with square and yeah you could just purchase stuff on nostr now with sats
and just have it get delivered you know it's like use the thing use the toys that were the devs are
giving us for open source communities and developers uh yeah it's cool are there uh
outside of like okay we talked a bit about what you guys are building a primal and everything
in terms of other that idea of you're using nostras this backbone for something else that's
maybe not social media we saw like bit chat obviously has built in nostra features but even
just like other marketplace or other things are there other sides of nostra that you're kind of
excited about that are outside of the social media realm of things that are outside of like
something that's you know you guys aren't trying to build at primal but like hey somebody else is
building this it's kind of outside of social media that's really cool like is there something
that's on your radar for that?
Mostly just the messaging stuff.
If they can match the UX of normal, you know, apps,
this whole CEOs being heroes of free speech
is so cringe to me.
Like the whole Elon, even like the Rumble guy,
like haven't fixed the root cause.
And that is we need to be able to do all this
permissionlessly and sovereignly.
Like maybe the market has spoken.
It's been, you know,
they haven't chose the sovereign way yet.
Maybe they'll be forced to one day.
I don't know how it's all going to work.
Maybe it's going to be hybrids.
Maybe it's going to be like just this right to exit.
With Divine, they're going to have a way to hold their keys,
but then they can give them to you after or something like that.
So just regular email password.
But yeah, the whole sovereign messaging thing
and the end-to-end encrypted messages,
NOSTA relays in between, no central server,
be able to spin up anything without a phone number.
that sounds like some awesome tech that's really needed and maybe we just throw it in primal one
day you know with everything uh built on these open protocols so that fires me up too i i'm super
stoked about like uh white noise that uh that jeff g and and that team is building because these are
they're tools that i think a lot of people i think this is where a lot of noster is right now is it's
like us trying to share the message which i think was what a lot of us myself included were sharing
initially around nostr when we were first getting kind of really excited about it was like look
you want to be able to use something that is uncensorable where you can hold your own keys
where you can be you know more sovereign in terms of you know owning your owning your actual data
owning your you know account but it's not even an account it's just you own this cryptographic
key pair and look you know if you get censored like on a centralized platform you're screwed
but here I know so that can't happen but like the reality is a lot of people just don't care about
that yet but they will something like they may not care about encrypted messaging that's transmitted
anonymously over nose to realize like with white noise may not care about the marmot protocol that
they built out as well but like you will someday like yeah I mean rather use it first before you
really like before you really really fucking need it like you'd rather have it figured out before
then i would yeah but i would think as well i i mean i get a little cosmic about it too man maybe
it's too much jungle but just dude every time we post something into somebody else's little box
like every time we post something to the zucks world we're just empowering him empowering that
whole entire ecosystem that's obviously extracted but it's like you need to be on meta ads right now
if you're a business too like so it's so tough but it's so cool that what all this represents
and it's been theorized for forever, I feel like.
And I think this is our best shot
at actually making it all happen.
Do you think the next like big wave of NOSTA adoption,
assuming, I'm assuming there will be one,
I'm assuming there's gonna be many waves
for a very long time, but like the next big wave,
do you think that ends up coming from people
running away from censorship,
centralized social media, whatever,
like trying to escape something?
Or do you think it's from people
that are going to be running toward just a better experience or a really cool you know something
like divine right that's like this nostalgic old but new experience but do you think it's going to
come from that running away or the running toward because it seems like so far we've mainly seen we
saw like the jack wave we saw that you know snowed in he brought a big wave as well some of the uh
the you know crackdowns on platforms in other countries brought some various waves of things
some censorship on reddit or other things like that okay there's been these waves but it seems
like besides the the jack and snowden which were people running towards something that they were
talking about positively so i guess that could kind of go both ways like it seems like we haven't
had people really diving into noster specifically because they're running toward the great user
experience or the great optionality it's like it's mostly been people that are like either directly
fleeing from something or are really worried about needing to flee from something in the future.
And so that's like, that's why they're here now. But like, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.
Cause I go back and forth on this, like on what's going to end up bringing more people, you know?
I mean, maybe we'll get more creators on there and then they're going to get it and they're
going to make videos and great propaganda besides like, we only have Max's, you know,
great Nostia documentary. We need more of those out there. There's so many good documentaries,
like the social dilemma, right? Do you remember watching that?
you have that but you put like an actual solution to this like hey this is humanity's messy but we
have this way to do this without giving these platforms complete control over everything about
our lives to just harvest our data and everything um so it could just take a nice wave of propaganda
but it also could just take something breaking you know you could just x could break x could
get banned in a lot of different places medic same thing so it could take that it could take
just a viral wave i mean that's what i'm trying to i'm just you know making a stew just stirring
the pot just throwing stuff out there seeing what sticks and might just accidentally start a movement
i mean i used to work for saladino we got freaking kennedy in the white house now talking
shit about seed oils and putting raw milk in everybody's face like dude this is all possible
and it's going to be a fun ride.
I don't know how long it's going to take,
but it seems like a lot of fun.
We're seeing Rumble gain a lot of popularity
just by marketing free speech.
And yeah, they have some of their own cool infrastructure.
Not much is different about it though.
It's just the people went over there
and then some creators went over there
and they figured out a way to incentivize creators
in the beginning.
I was listening to his story with Rick Rubin
not too long ago.
And yeah, there's this kind of this magic.
It all takes a little bit of luck.
It takes survival for these social networks
to scale. So I don't want to pretend like I know the magic pill. I mean, our thing on the 13th and
16th will cause some noise. I'm excited for that. But again, it's probably the gravity of the
network that's going to lift everybody up. It's going to just be useful. I think that's fair.
And I do, I agree on the creator side. Like it really does make it, you get a couple of larger
creators that are, you know, whether they're, you know, normie creators or whatever, or political,
uh you know political influencers whatever that might be but people that have really large
audiences and i think maybe one of the reasons that you haven't seen stuff like that right now
is because because like x elon did take over x people the the sort of d platform that was
happening on youtube to kind of slow down a bit you know people started getting some channels back
yeah regime change could change a lot but but exactly it's like but a couple more years depends
on who's like in the White House here in the US
or in whatever, you know,
parliamentary houses around the world,
like things can change really fast.
So I think maybe we got lucky
that this is like a little bit of a lull right now
where everyone's like, yeah,
free speech is back on all the centralized platforms.
We don't have to worry.
And then it's like-
I thought Bitcoin was going to a million in 2017.
And I thought again, in all the bull markets,
like, you know, I don't understand.
Same, I don't understand with Nostra.
But then at the same time, looking back hindsight,
like, oh my God, lightning was nowhere.
we didn't have e-cash we didn't have all these different ways of possibly scaling bitcoin spark
arc um like we need all this for bitcoin to scale and to get to millions of dollars and reach
billions of people and then for nostril like oh my god we had all these broken clients and when
the jacking happened and then primal was just looking like this a couple years ago like no
it wasn't ready why would people go to that it's just like this knockoff thing so no build something
new and give it our best shot it is interesting one of the biggest like criticisms of Nostra I
still see if I post about it on x is people saying oh well I tried it but the the ux was so bad or
like or it doesn't work or whatever and you ask them like okay well when did you try it what did
you try and it's usually like well I tried it in like 2023 um and and then they had a bad experience
and they just didn't try it again.
Like, that initial touch point does make a huge difference.
It's sticky in people's heads.
If we had the jackening right now,
but also if we didn't, we wouldn't be here probably.
So, right?
Right, right.
We need a jackening, jackening to the re-jackening.
Yeah, I guess.
I wonder what we're going to do.
If you're listening to this right now, we need the re-jackening.
Yeah, I mean, he does his part.
He still has Primal in his bio on Twitter, which is amazing.
But there's some things we've got to change.
You know something that he's always been kind of manifesting is just starter packs.
And Callie with the following dot space, you know about that.
That's something we still haven't built into Primal that no client's done perfectly, in my opinion.
And we need to do that.
Just like friends bringing friends.
Make tools that make it easy for friends to come on.
And I built something.
Dude, I still can't believe Vibe Coding.
I listened to an episode with Derek and Alex, who are wizards.
It's so fun.
And even guys like us can do it.
I built this whole tool where you can just rip your content from Instagram and bring it to Primal super easily.
Even people who created a key pair a while ago can just log in with Primal now, put in their Instagram name, and then sign it again with their Primal.
and it all just appears in the same date that they brought it over.
Same with Substack, Twitter, and Instagram.
Dude, that's...
And TikTok.
Does the Substack come over as a long form then?
So your Substacks won't look good,
but the normal Substacks where people are just writing,
like yours is, yeah.
But yeah, it'll go in as reads.
Wow, wow.
Yeah.
Dude, that's slick.
It's pretty slick.
And then I also figured out a way to do it for someone
because this is all like I'm a hacker dude like trying to hack a social network I had no idea how
to do this but one of the things was like why would somebody want to start from absolute zero
and repost all their content like on there from scratch like who knows where to even go dig that
up in your photos and everything so that's what's cool about this tool too is I found out a way to
make to like gift an account so I upload say someone has a twitter an instagram and a sub stack
I could do all three of those in one gift.
They just get a link and it just tells them to copy the key.
And then it prompts them to open primal and that'll make them download primal.
And they just enter their key in there, all their content appears.
And I built in there a way for them to auto follow a couple of friends that is in there too.
So like, I don't know, that's a scheme I have coming.
And the site's live right now.
It's called ownyourpost.com.
You should play with it and let me know what's broken.
Ownyourpost.com?
yeah yeah ownyourposts.com that's okay yeah it's pretty rad did you use uh shakespeare uh or did
you know that was all cloud code okay okay i want to build some nostre apps too i want to build like
i mean i think somebody did it scrabble i used to play words with friends every day with my mom
in college and i think you know little things like that like games going viral then just you
have to generate a key pair without users even knowing you know nostre can scale like that
there's just infinite ways of all this to happen.
And like Alex said,
and like I've said before,
it's just this Cambrian explosion of apps that's just happening because you
can do it all without permission.
So it's this nice,
perfect storm that that's brewing.
Like it's all happening.
What are your thoughts on like the micro app versus the,
the super app on those two?
Cause obviously Primal does a lot,
but you guys aren't trying,
you know,
you've already said you're not trying to do everything.
Like you're still trying to stay focused.
i know jack had talked for a while and still does about that idea of like what he sees is like okay
we have just you know tons and tons of different micro apps really specific stuff but you're don't
need a different account for each one you just still have the same key pair that you're using
for all these how do you see that like do you use yourself a bunch of different uh apps on
are you pretty much just using primal like how do you see that playing out so did you see what we
just built with the login with primal yeah I've used it it's super slick and
that's sick so like it's really nice it can get extremely smooth I don't know if
we did post about how smooth it can get but it's Atlantis and Olaz are
implementing it and you literally just click once the reader extra primal log in and you back in and it like this is it and people have been memeing about this forever i don want to create another username and password here we go log in
with primal one one key all your apps and then that'd be cool to have a hardware device for it
too just imagine entering your nsec and having all the apps just appear and you're already logged
into everything that'd be amazing too i think you're right that it is things like that that
reduce the friction because like, yeah, okay. You mentioned, you know, the initial experience of,
and I had the exact same thought, like you felt like such a cool, like, you know, uh, as a non
hacker, you feel like a real hacker, you know, setting up your public key and your private key.
And, you know, it's, you know, if you I've already used Bitcoin, you're kind of, okay,
at least a little familiar with this, but for people who haven't used Bitcoin at all and haven't,
you know, are, are real normies, you're not a real normie, Paul, that's, you gave, I'm not falling
for this uh but for real normies that like what do you mean i don't like where can i put my email
or where do i need to sign sign up like what do you mean i just generate a public private key oh
if i lose this private key it's just gone i have to start over like i think that is a huge friction
point for people i think it freaks people out to be honest yeah rabble's talked a lot about that
they want like customer support where it's like please reset my password for me you know it's like
no that's like you get one but like so i think that that is still a huge friction point so anything
we can do to make that easier, which I think you guys have already taken a really good step toward.
I think that's huge for just smoothing the onboarding experience. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
man, I've had some friends lose accounts and I'm just like, well, it's all Godspeed, man. Like this
is going to happen when it's bound to happen. Same with Bitcoin. Like I think it's going to
happen. I mean, Bitcoin I'm more positive about, I mean, like that has to happen. Um,
and then non-star or something like it is going to happen as well and it's a good thing that we
haven't reached mass adoption yet because people just lose their accounts like there's reasons for
this right um we did add save to iCloud for your key pair as well for iOS which I've been asking
for and begging for Domus has had that this whole time that makes me sleep a little better at night
of course there's a couple trade-offs but Apple's pretty good actually about that stuff so
yeah things like that um we're not going to go first with having some sort of email password
type um type situation um but we're gonna watch that with interest um we're gonna see what divine
does um yeah be interesting have you been using divine a little bit uh because it was like like
all of us it was so shit when rabble announced it i was like holy shit watching it go viral
because that got like i think 36 million or more impressions it's like oh my god um and the rabble
nailed something there the whole like proof of human thing that he's building in there that's
that's something that's that's a killer feature right um but i've used and then the last time i
checked in the video were the videos were working it was getting smoother i could actually the the
editor was working so yeah it's coming and you'll be able to see those in primal i'll give away that
too oh yes okay we got another yeah so but that's that's cool too because like if they if all these
old creators get back on vine be able to see like logan paul and like all the maybe what are some of
those other names i forget that used to use vine get back on there and you can just see it in primal
and i can't i zap you but you know we'll get to that yeah step by step i do love that proof of
human, this thing, or like, look, we, we specifically want to not have AI generated
content here.
And I think that's really cool.
I think that's, that's going to be a, a bigger selling point than people realize as we go
forward.
Cause you, you know this, cause you're still like, like I am.
Yeah.
Like I use Noster every single day.
I also use centralized platforms, right?
I do.
I often show Noster on those platforms as well.
Yeah.
We were very grateful for you.
Great job.
I do what I can, right?
Yeah.
It's my, I'm not a dev.
So like, you know, if you can't code, you know, podcast and maybe now with AI, if you,
if you know how to, if you know how to code, you might need to learn to podcast pretty soon.
That's a different story.
But what I was going to say is like, there is so much slop.
Like there's, you go on X and like, I, I just, I mute stuff.
If I see like, look, you're obviously it's either bot generated.
Like you're either just a full on bot or you're just using some AI to write all of your posts.
And I can tell, like, I don't want to waste my time with that.
I want, I want a filter for humanness. So I know that if somebody is posting this,
they actually took the time to like, think about it and write it. They didn't just outsource their
thinking to feed me some slop. Like, I want to know what you're thinking, not what the, you know,
an AI reasoned for you and put into a long form text. Like, no, no, I want the humanness. And I
think that we're going to see that desire accelerate and accelerate and accelerate and having things
like divine or just even building that uh you know i think i would hope that more of these uh
even the centralized platforms would build out filters like that like hey i want to filter out
content that is most likely generated by a bot or generated by ai like i at least want the option
because i just i don't want to see all that slop i'd rather know that something is real and human
and was generated by a human being isn't it obvious maybe we're in the minority i don't know
no i don't think so actually and yeah people i see all these posts and stuff but like
they don't why am i logging on to this app right now like what am i searching for and
it's all kind of ripe in my opinion for improvement um kind of forgot i was gonna say but
oh yeah how much of a signal is it that jeff booth just freaking hooked up some some bot to
his twitter and is like hey i'm just here you guys take the slop and it gets reposted like
crazy every day and then he's just like for real on Noster that's amazing when I saw him doing that
I was like this is a Jeff this is brilliant I saw him in person shortly after he started that
experiment and talked to him about it and I think it's like it's brilliant it's he's he's he's
basically just very subtly or not so subtly if you kind of saw his posts on Noster like you know
exactly what he's doing but for everybody else he's just sort of giving this subtle signal that
Like, look, you're only going to get AI Jeff.
And yes, it's trained on everything Jeff says.
It says things that Jeff would say.
You don't know any better.
You might think it's actually Jeff, but it's not.
He's only putting his real human time into Noster.
And I think that is like such a, I don't know, it's brilliant.
When I saw that, I was like, damn, Jeff, like that is, that's smooth.
It's really cool.
Super smooth.
I think shortly after that, Odell hooked up a Stay Humble Stack Sat spot.
He was just hitching to get back on it.
Oh, of course she was.
Yeah.
Let's be honest.
For it.
Yeah.
We know that.
What's the real reason of facing this right now?
Yeah.
Oh, man.
But yeah, this whole verify that you're human thing, that's just another question.
Like, how are we going to do that on Noster?
And then, but yeah, like juxtaposing your experience on Noster when you hop on another platform, you can feel them doing anything they can to keep your attention there.
And a lot of times the slop, because it's so weird and this extra normal stimuli will keep you there.
And they like that.
So then it's shown to more people, right?
And that doesn't happen as much on Nostro.
Yeah, there's slop on there.
Yeah, there's some people hacking the primal trending algorithm and whatever.
But it's going to be interesting going forwards.
And like, how are we going to prove you're human?
Oh, maybe just come to a conference down in Costa Rica.
I'll scan your mpub.
Make sure that you can zap from that one.
Check your zap receipt.
Boom.
There's a human that controls that empire.
That's not a freaking world coin orb scanning your eyeballs.
So I think there's another way to do this that isn't so dystopian.
And is it going to all be on Noster?
Is Noster just a piece of it?
Is there going to be Web 5 resurrection?
I don't know.
It's past my pay grade.
Well, no, and I think it's a, I'm very curious at some of the kind of like social graph,
or there's a couple other names that have been used for it, but basically utilizing people's,
you know, it starts to sound like a social credit score, but it's not, it's like, it's
a community, almost a community score, right?
Like, okay.
Yeah.
X, Y, and Z people have met this person in real life.
This is a real person.
We verified it.
Like you said, you know, we like somebody has verified, yes, this person with their end
pub showed it to me in person.
I know it.
Like, I know that this is them.
It's real because that's another thing.
Like just even from a, not even from a slop perspective, but like from a security perspective,
like the scams man are going to get so much worse.
And this is why, like the only way you're going to get around that is like, Hey, this
was signed by Paul's, by Paul's private key.
Like, I know this is from Paul because he signed it with his private key because so-and-so
confirmed that yes, Paul is still in control of that private key.
Like this stuff sounds like, oh, that's, you know, you won't like, I think we're not far away from really needing that.
Yeah.
Almost every interaction that we have online, because it's going to be so hard to tell.
Right.
If someone's actually themselves, uh, whether they're in control of, you know, that, that private key, if, if it was compromised amount, right, that's going to be a hard problem.
But I think that like Noster plus Bitcoin as a way to also add an economic incentive to that is at least, you know, probably not the whole solution.
but I think part of it at least, I hope. Yeah. I mean, Gigi always says like the proof of work
plus the web of trust will fix like 95% of the internet. So I hope and think that's true.
Yeah. Yeah. Let's, I mean, let's see. I'm, I'm super bullish though, broadly on Noster. And
honestly, the, the fact that since we started this conversation off talking about Nosterica
three years ago now, again, wild that it's been three years. It, the improvements that I've seen
across many different apps.
I mean, I was using Domus then.
I'm still using Domus now.
I use Domus and Primal are both my daily drivers.
I use them both multiple times a day.
I use Zap.Stream as well.
I occasionally use some other ones.
I was using Highlighter, Pablo,
until you stopped working on it
because you started working on Olaz.
I'll forgive you, but...
Pablo's working on like 55 things at once.
Dude, I know.
He's wild.
You know any agencies he's got going now?
is just it's crazy man like the people that have been paying attention oh man they're like 100
people at once though uh it is it is nuts and he was already like 10 people at once so like he's
easy yeah yeah he's got a little bit of a advantage but no like what i would say is this
if somebody's listening to this and they are not yet on no stir if you're just a subscriber to the
podcast first of all thank you uh paul and i've been live streaming this on no stir it works people
been in the chat sending me sats thank you guys to everybody who sent sats by the way uh so far
Let's see what, uh, how many sats I've got to, I don't know where it, don't know where
it went, but thank you.
Multiple people sending sats here in this chat.
That is like, that is amazing.
Noster is, you should give 13,024 sats so far.
Thank you guys.
Thank you to everybody who is watching live on Noster.
That is awesome.
It's the experience.
If you tried Noster, I'm speaking again, people who are not using it every day right now.
You tried Noster a couple of years ago and you thought this doesn't work very well.
You were probably right.
Um, but it's so much better.
It's gotten, you won't even recognize it.
It's gotten so much better and you have optionality.
So I would just really encourage people try Noster again, try it for the first time.
And if you're a content creator, if you're already posting on like five different social
medias and a, you know, a blog and all these other things, why not at least post on Noster
as well?
You can probably automate it too.
If you wanted to just scrape your YouTube videos or whatever else.
Yeah.
Let me know.
Just hit me up for that.
I got you.
I've built that.
Paul's got it.
What's your
kind of pitch these days
to, let's say,
people who are not yet on Noster?
The pitch is obviously different depending on who you're
talking to, but let's say
the pitch to content creators
like your friends who are maybe not
as orange-billed or not as purple-billed yet,
how do you talk to them
about Noster?
Um...
i tell them it's just like it it's just the standard it changes per creator like yeah i was
super gung-ho about this free speech thing but that's like not as much of a narrative anymore
then the own your content but then what does that really mean so it depends if i'm in the flesh i'm
like watch this i can just send bitcoin like that you can get bitcoin so that's still what i say
um but yeah i i'd show them the different apps as well if i'm in the if they're getting mind
blown by that you could see their content in multiple apps so that's part of it but i don't
know i've kind of eased off the gas pedal right now before because like we had what it was primal
2.0 for a while now now they're like the next stage i'm gonna go freaking hard and see what
works again and now that i have this tool to like bring their content with them like why not
i'll link that in the uh i'll link it in the show notes ownyourposts.com
that honestly it is incredible that again people like you and i were not i mean i did like some
c plus plus in in high school and whatnot uh little things but like you know forgotten most
of that i pretty much just remember if then else maybe a for loop or two but like i i can't code
but now like i can do some pretty cool stuff or at least get something to like a minimum viable
product that i never would have been able to before and that is like a hugely powerful force
I think like we're in and we're still so early in this vibe coding journey you know what I mean
like it's only going to get easier smoother more streamlined like what that's why I love what uh
Derek and Alex are doing and shout out to you for bringing up that episode too
it's like Shakespeare is super powerful and you can build yourself a noester client actually funny
story I got a I got a strike on YouTube because I linked the footster client the page for the
footster client yeah I didn't realize like that it was gonna just apparently YouTube scans those
links and it said like there was nudity in this link i'm like oh shit like i don't know what
so i like delete i'm like okay well that's my first youtube strike but you know what worth it
for yeah for the meme for the footster eric for this derrick made me vibe code footster you know
what else kind of resonates to creators and just people too and friends it's like everybody knows
social media doesn't make them feel good anymore especially like instagram and even twitter like
most of my friends are mostly on instagram not even twitter they know it doesn't make them feel
good they know they're addicted and tiktok um so that's something else i say like hey we're
building this thing that gives users more choice algorithms are opt-in and i want without saying
it directly that we're trying to build like a healthier social media so that's kind of what
else i would say to a creator i think that and a little fomo that they're early too but yeah well
right right but no that it's a really important part like you know if you spend enough time just
doom scrolling on x like you feel bad man like you don't feel good it's not yeah especially if
you're just going by whatever the algo is feeding you if you're not like searching out specific
content from people that you follow like you will it gets you in a weird headspace but you don't get
that on no stir like you don't come away feeling the same it's and you're right social media
generally makes people feel bad depending on how they're consuming it i mean it's a tool like
anything else right but it's a tool that's been gamed to really keep your focus keep your attention
Noster doesn't have that same gamification of it and like you don't come away feeling like shit
every time you log on to it you know but still somehow you come chasing those dopamine hits on
centralized social media again and again it's wild you know you feel like crap afterwards you know
it's wild it's yeah it's just the name of the game I tried to take a week off last week and I honestly
failed it's kind of pathetic like i accidentally look of centralized social media no i was like
just kind of working everything because we're gonna do i'm ready for a little sprint now but um
yeah i tried to take a week off but then i looked at twitter and then i was like fuck if i don't
like make myself way smarter with ai and like figure out how to use these tools i'm gone i'm
done you know but yeah it's just it's crazy these ai is awesome because it saves us time but i feel
like we're in this weird zone right now where it's we're spending more time on the screen
trying to figure it all out i think that's going to fix itself eventually but um yeah strange time
it is man and and you know it's uh it's one of those things too where
especially like you and i we're both you know have young kids or you know or a young kid in both our
cases uh together young kids like you know amazing amazing wives amazing kids like you want to spend
as much time with them as possible like that's the whole that's the whole meaning of all this right
is spend as much time with those people you love and so having i think noster has honestly helped
me build much healthier habits because it wasn't until Noster that I realized just how destructive
yes like that the centralized social media could be like I couldn't see it entirely until I had
the contrast of how you feel and how you experience Noster and I'm glad that that came around like
before uh we had our our son just because like I don't know it's it's very easy now for me to be
like you know arguing with so and so like on on x like that literally means nothing that's not
going to help anyone it's not going to make my day better why am i doing that instead of spending
time with my awesome wife and awesome son like that's just that's just dumb like so i think it
helps to nostr does a good job of helping to put things in perspective by showing you what social
media can be like and that it doesn't have to be so addictive doesn't have to make you feel like
it doesn't have to keep you glued in there you can use it put it away like and not have those same
like, you know, dopamine withdrawals that a lot of people get. And so I think that's like
setting people up for just those healthier habits is a very underrated perk of Noster,
at least for me. And it sounds like for you. Yeah, that's exactly, I mean, you just feel it,
you feel it so hard. Like I unfollowed everybody from Instagram now and it's way better, but in a
way it's worse because you hop on the app and then you can't turn off algorithm at all, at least not
on iOS. I haven't figured it out. Um, for like the explore page, when you go to search somebody
and it's just like, does everything that they can to keep you there. And you can fill that on
Nostra. Like I hop in and I put a pinned feed. So my first thing I see is stay focused.
That's something that you could do in primals advanced searches, like create your own feeds.
It could be a feed of just your friends on there. Um, but little things like that,
having the ability to customize what you're seeing and being in control of what you see is what
is a critical piece to this healthier social media that we're all trying to build.
And it's so funny, all the developers of Nostra right now,
they're also based and they'll hate social media so much that they had to go build it.
It's kind of ironic.
It is.
Yeah. And you can feel that DNA in all the clients.
I mean, the revolution will have good UX,
but the revolution I don't think will be just trying to hack your attention at all costs.
well i want to thank you for giving me a bunch of your attention and your time here
today away from your beautiful family maybe but just as we as we wrap up here uh you know so that
i can uh clip this into uh into something to you know purple pill more normies uh what are there
some maybe we could start with this okay how what is like the fastest way how quickly can people get
started with primal and what are maybe some tips and tricks with you know not even with your new
features, but with primal 2.0 that people can use to like get the most out of the experience.
You mentioned the, uh, the, the different pinned feeds and things like that. What else maybe might
people be interested in, or maybe people that are already using it, that may not just be aware of
everything that's going on. Like, what are some things you would want people to say? Like, okay,
get, get set up on Noster, try this. This is going to make your experience better. Like from day one.
All right. So day one, you're new to primal, new to Noster, make an awesome introductory post say,
hey, I'm so-and-so, I do this, I like this, here's how I found Noster, here's a
photo of myself, hashtag introductions. There you go. Then you email or DM me,
Paul in the Jungle, on any platform and say that this is me. And then I repost it
and boom, you get Bitcoin. It's magic. You get to feel Noster. And maybe people
will find it before they even, before I even repost it or anything. You don't want to just hop on
there and then not post. Like get on there, introduce yourself and then start interacting
with the community. And you'll be able to feel it right away what's different.
And then what else in the app? I just want people to know that they can, well, first of all,
anybody can write an article by going to promo.net on web and then clicking into the read section,
my articles, and then they can write. I want people to use the read section more often.
And then I also want people to know that they can edit their feeds. So you'll touch like the
latest tab on the top and you can turn on like trending 24 hours, four hours, whatnot.
You could change around the order of all that. So you, um, yeah, just in more control.
That is, I think a really, a really nice feature. And one of the things that initially on Nostar
people complained about was like, ah, there was no, like in case you missed it or like it,
cause it, you know, when it was just straight chronological was the only feed anyone had.
I think it was tough. Like if you didn't happen to be online within like a certain window of
some of these posts nobody had retweeted it recently like you'd miss some cool stuff like
this to me was a huge uh a huge like leg up there this was a really big improvement i think and i'm
glad to see like more clients have also introduced something similar to that because it just it makes
the experience better yeah like we need algorithms on doster they just need to be open sourcing
people need to know why what they're doing amen to that well paul i've kept you here uh right up
until the time it was great to chat man this was this was a blast hopefully we can do it in person
you make it back down to costa rica it's very i'm jealous of you being shirtless outside right now
it's i'm wearing like a thick like wrangler uh sweater thing here and it's fucking cold outside
and brutal and northern the northern states here but uh where can people find you where can they
go check out primal anywhere else you want to send people yeah just paw in the jungle on primal on Instagram Feel free to message me I get back to everybody Hit me up up with any questions and get on nostril i zap some sats the next time you in costa rica i
give you a coconut sick i'm gonna take you up on that man yeah thank you to everybody who tuned in
on the live stream i appreciate you all i appreciate the zaps uh i'm gonna i'm gonna have
to pay half of these forward to uh to paul i think for for being such a great guest here today
but thank you appreciate everybody who joins in on no stir this podcast always goes on no stir live
first and then you know if you're not on no stir you just get it get it later with everyone else
but you can be on no stir and you can get this live as it happens in real time and you can send
me sats which i know you're wanting to do so paul cheers man appreciate this was a blast
best to you and your family and uh yeah hope we get to chat again soon see you soon
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast.
Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening,
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kon Pang