there's like a satoshi quote of it might not be the solution but it will buy some time in the in
the war for freedom and and really if you look back to like the early cypherpunks and just
cryptography in general like the powers that cryptography offer the individual and if you
haven't read crypto sovereignty by eric case and i definitely recommend it but the power that
cryptography offers the individual and cryptography enables not just bitcoin right bitcoin is just the
best money that we found to use with cryptography but cryptography underpins everything we do in
our digital modern age and enabling the average person to use cryptography to protect themselves
from people that would wish them harm or ill will to their way of life is a powerful concept.
And with open source technology and the jet fuel that is Bitcoin, sending all of the idealistic
Bitcoiners into the top tier of elite society, cryptography is only going to accelerate from
here. And open source technology is one of the means that we're going to accelerate it.
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.
My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin Podcast.
Bitcoin continues to create new blocks every 10 minutes
and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.
If you are listening to this right now, remember, you are still early.
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash Walker and this podcast at primal.net slash Titcoin.
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And find this podcast on X and Instagram at Titcoin Podcast.
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And head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else.
without further ado let's get into this bitcoin talk
okay gary welcome i'm sorry for that snafu on the live streaming i'm offended i'm just gonna
leave now i'm sorry my you know blame it on my producer uh his name's walter and he's just a
real shitbag can't can't get anything right honestly it's it's embarrassing i might have
to fire this guy. Oh, you'll save a lot of money by firing him. Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. He's
just honestly just kind of like not pulling his weight and really bad attitude on this guy. So
yeah, we're going to have to get rid of him. But dude, welcome. We saw each other in DC, which was
a very interesting experience for me. I don't know how you're doing the day. Did you do the
day on the hill stuff too? You did go talk to folks, right? I did do the day on the hill.
how how was that for you because that for me that was uh eye-opening to put it nicely
yeah i mean it's going to depend right because we all went to go talk to different people
um i met the most promising thing so i'm in virginia and so tim kane who is hillary's
running mate in 2016 is my senator and so i went and met with him and i was like this is gonna be
weird yeah um but generally i don't know there was like a representative from arizona i just like
tagged along with somebody else and like her staffer was like i have no idea anything you
guys are talking about so like please explain it to me and we did like a live lightning transaction
her mind was blown and i think i nailed it because i talked about uh like security and consumer
protection because you're not sharing your secret information when you're giving when you're paying
bitcoin but with a credit card you have to like give the secret number on the back of your credit
card and the lady was like i just had debit card fraud and i had to like close all my accounts and
get new cards issued and everything so it like nailed that one um and then my representative
actually came out of his meeting to like come meet with the group of us that was there and then
i ended up giving him this like uh national security book that like some of the guys from
bpi and like it's got like matt pines and um some other things but it covers like policy ideas and
stuff like that and so i was like hey i've got these books to give you and uh ended up giving
that to one of their staffers. So if nothing else, they at least like, you know, wanted books and
they were engaging via email afterwards. But the Tim Kaine thing, like I got all the normal FUD of
whatever, but, you know, still met with like a senior staffer. I don't know if that means
anything. It's just like an older dude. It wasn't like some young intern. So maybe that meant
something about it, but. It sounds like yours was, was perhaps slightly more successful than,
uh,
than ours was.
We're in Illinois.
And like,
why is that?
Well,
so,
uh,
we actually,
we got a chance to meet with our,
our senators.
They were doing like,
it wasn't like an individual meeting.
It was like a,
some sort of like a call,
you know,
a coffee and,
and like meet and greet with,
or a bunch of people like bring their grievances and such.
Oh geez.
And then the,
and the senators,
you know,
pontificate and it's Dick Durbin and Tammy Duckworth.
And yeah.
Um,
and Dick Durbin is like,
I think like 83 or something like that. Like he's really old. And I just, I went in there and I asked
him, I was trying to be like very, went in there in good faith, you know, but they're like, who,
you know, go around the room, you know, who are you here? Who do you, who are you here with? Who
do you represent? Oh, you know, we're at the Bitcoin policy Institute. And, uh, you know,
we're, we're here to advocate on behalf of, you know, Bitcoin and, and, you know, not crypto and
try to really drive that home. And like every meeting we had, like the, this is some, this is
a different thing because they they lump everything together because they're like well bitcoin so you
must be a fan of trump coin then aren't and you're like well no actually we think that's a garbage
scam um it has nothing to do with bitcoin at all like that's that's your starting point right like
that's where you're starting from um and uh and then there was so i gave the introduction okay it
was all fine dick turban like asked like right off the bat like oh and so do you support the genius
act and like and i'm like uh i honestly don't care about it at all again has nothing to do with
bitcoin um and you know so then he's like uh then it gets like the q a part and just to set the
stage for this the other people that were in the room were like they're like a bunch of nurses
there or like a kid whose father had uh had uh had taken his own life um the year before and was
like advocating on behalf of mental like and some like really like heavy and and important stuff and
like really tragic stuff yeah and then we're there like well we're going to talk about bitcoin you
And so maybe the optics weren't great on that, but it is what it is.
A lot of the other problems that people were talking about didn't say this, but I'm thinking,
I'm like, boy, a lot of this just traces back to the money being broken, doesn't it?
But he asked, okay, does anybody have any questions for us?
Nobody's asking questions, so I stand up and ask a question.
Senator, you signed a letter with Elizabeth Warren to Fidelity telling them that you strongly recommend
they do not allow their clients to have exposure to Bitcoin when Bitcoin was at $20,000 in the
depths of the bear market in 2022. So I'm just wondering with Bitcoin now 5x that has your
position changed on that at all? You said that it wasn't a reliable store value, et cetera, et cetera.
I'd love to hear how you've updated your position. And basically he just goes off on a rant about,
he's like, well, I brought crypto fraud, ATM crypto fraud legislation to the floor. And then
this Sam Bankman Freed guy, and it's like, respectfully, sir, I'm sorry, that's great.
None of us like fraud, but that has nothing to do with Bitcoin.
And again, it went like this.
And then at one point, he's like, well, you need to clean up your act, son.
Your industry needs to, and I'm like, I need to clean up.
Sam Bankman Freed is now my fault.
People running scams at crypto ATMs are now my fault.
What is happening?
A couple of the other people we were with were like, sir, we all agree that's a problem.
Like none of us want fraud, but that happens with or without, you know, Bitcoin.
You know, like this happens all the time, these sorts of scams, like, and that's terrible.
We should do something about that.
But respectfully, it has nothing to do with it.
And he was just like not having it got superheated.
And then eventually it was just like, I'm not talking about Bitcoin anymore.
And then it was like, well, that is that.
So that was that was that interaction.
We did have like a couple of positive ones with like, uh, senior staffers, uh, where they were like, listen, one of them literally told us, they're like, listen, the, the Congresswoman is like 85 and she's retiring like after this.
So like, she's never going to vote in a, in a pro Bitcoin way, but she's retiring.
So like, just so you know, and I'm like, well, I appreciate the, you know, the honesty there.
Some of them were kind of open to learning.
um some of them i was like you are just like you are fresh out of college and you have no idea what's
going on and you're interfacing like you're basically writing policy that your 80 some
year old representative then takes to the floor like what is this system that we have this explains
why shit is so broken like my god this is insane so yeah that that was my experience was like
got out of those first couple meetings got to that the bar meetup midday and i was like i'm
pounding a couple of Miller lights because I cannot go into these afternoon ones completely
sober. But then I was told it's okay because it's DC and everybody day drinks all the time.
So that checks out. Yeah. I don't go there often, but when I do, uh, it's not during the day.
You prefer to day drink. I don't prefer to drink at all. Actually. I'm more of a,
a cannabis enjoyer. Okay. Okay. There's, there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Um, I'm sure
that many in DC are also cannabis enjoyers. Oh yeah. Enjoyers of all things. Right. But yeah,
it was interesting bpi did an awesome job uh even though from what i hear on the interwebs now that
they're all spooks which uh is uh yeah me too like i used to be a spook like that's what i did
in the navy was i was a spook i was a chinese linguist can you talk about that a little bit
without without uh yeah you know spook uh without doxing yourself too much like can you can you get
into that a little because when i found that out i was like what is happening here so i mean
starry-eyed out of high school like i enlisted at 17 because uh the psyops of like socom u.s navy
seals on the playstation 2 like worked really well call of duty really well and so i'm like sweet i'm
gonna sign up to serve um ended up joining the navy instead of like any of the other you know
more like combat focused ones because my girlfriend at the time was uh against it but i did 11 years
four months and three days in the navy um two years of that was language school where they
taught me Chinese Mandarin. And then four years I spent out in Hawaii, um, listening to static
and translating Chinese for strategic intelligence purposes. Uh, did a little tour in Afghanistan
while I was there. And then I spent the final five years, um, in SOCOM doing like black box radio
stuff for all the cool guys. So it's like, put the black box in my backpack, try to keep up with
all these like special operations guys and then make sure that you know they have the intelligence
picture in the tactical environment right so it's like indications and warnings was one of the
buzzwords of like hey there's a guy over here and he's talking about blowing us up and then that was
like what we trained to and also just general uh counter-terrorism activities of like where's this
guy at based on all of his devices etc have you ever seen zero dark 30 i have not actually so
there's a scene in there where like a guy's in a band and it's like a little blip on the map like
i was the guy in the band basically right i was not like a cool guy by any means but i was the guy
that would be like yep he's uh over here based on my intelligence yeah did you uh did you enjoy that
uh at all like yeah so man that's an it's a loaded question i know no no yeah it goes like at the
same time uh i'm living with one of my best friends um and getting like liberty pilled like
truly you know because like i signed up like freedom and democracy american way all that stuff
right and then i'm starting to learn about like libertarianism and like the actual ideals of
individualism and sovereignty and everything like that and at the same time i'm like the action arm
of you know the war machine and so that was like a really weird time um but i i enjoyed the people
like it's because it was like on the special operations side of the things there was a
screening process to get into that program and so it wasn't like your run-of-the-mill like
military folks right there was still like you had to be um you had to be good to get into it and then
that kind of bled into like it was a lot of people that were like down to just get shit done
like put their heads down do the work uh motivated now where we uh misguided as all people and the
dood were for like what we were doing with this like counterterrorism stuff like yes definitely
um but i enjoyed the people that i worked with and one of my one of the roles that we trained
to and stuff was like to make everybody aware so that we could all be safe right now there's
obviously like the offensive side of that which was um ideally i never had like i've never been
shot at never blown up like the closest was like mortars landing in afghanistan on the same base
that I was on, which is pretty jarring.
You feel a concussive blast of it,
depending on how close it is.
But I was very fortunate.
I'm lucky that I never saw actual combat
where I'm taking rounds and sending rounds back
and everything like that.
But all around, I would have stayed in
if the Navy was actually good
at maintaining talent and retention.
I tried to go into the cyber field, right?
And I even took this test and passed the test.
And the Navy was like,
no, we need you to be a Chinese linguist
or send you back to the fleet.
and like the regular Navy and you're going to do all this other not fun stuff.
And I was like, yeah, no, fuck that.
I'll just get a job out and about and left.
And so landed at Microsoft.
Was that a common thing amongst your peers as well,
where it's like they wanted to be able to move into a different area
and then ended up going into the private sector
just because like things were mismanaged?
Was that a fairly common occurrence?
Yeah, it happened.
I mean, I got out.
So like 11 years, you know, 20 years is like the pension point
where you get a retirement paycheck for the rest of your life, period.
So a lot of guys, once they hit that point, they were like,
well, I might as well just do the final nine years
and collect a pension or whatever and take easy jobs if you wanted.
Staying within the community I was in was also very ideal.
I was kind of verbally slotted to go into an R&D
at a higher headquarters to do really cool R&D tech work.
Now I find myself doing cool R&D tech work open source.
I'm still scratching that itch.
So, I mean, all things considered, you know, it was a cool job and I enjoyed my time.
I don't regret it by any means because you only know what you know up until a certain point.
But I'm very glad that I got out when I did, which was the end of 2019, right before the world went to shit.
And I'm glad that I got this like new perspective of the world on like what it actually means to have freedom and liberty.
And like democracy is this like bullshit idea.
right like by the end of it i was like yeah i'm done completely done with this right the navy was
not like giving me what i wanted um it was arguably a good deal in my opinion because like
hey i want to go do this other thing that you guys also need people for but because of the big
bureaucracy and like numbers and it's all you're just a number right you're a cog in the machine
they're like well we don't have enough cogs right here and you need to stay right there
and we're not going to take you and move your cog over to this other place because um it's actually
doing okay. So I said, all right, fuck it, I'm out. Whether you're mining Bitcoin, buying Bitcoin,
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So thank you. I mean, first of all, thank you for your service. And I've said this to you in
person as well. Like I mean that when I say it, because I think a lot of people, let me put it
this way. The veterans that I've talked to and the veterans I've talked to through Bitcoin,
like to a man. And of course I haven't met every veteran that has ever existed. Obviously this is
anecdotal experience but but to a man they've been great human beings who joined up because
they really believed that they were making a positive impact and would you know would help
keep folks safe here at home like hearts could not have been in more of a right place yep uh
and then when it comes to the bitcoin veterans that i've had the pleasure of getting to know
it's like they had this experience of similar to you kind of like going down the rabbit hole of
of liberty and freedom and libertarianism or maybe even of bitcoin depending on what time they were
in the service as they were in the service and then having this kind of like oh shit moment of
like maybe maybe everything that i was told and and believed wasn't wasn't what i thought it was
maybe i was kind of maybe i was misled a little bit and like i don't blame the individuals for
that because this is the most powerful propaganda machine in the history of the world right like it
We're talking about the military industrial complex, right?
This is it.
This is the pinnacle of that.
And so it's like, but now you guys are all the most hardcore.
You still have your hearts in the right place.
And now you have seen how the sausage is made and are outside of that machine doing incredible work still.
And I just think that's like, I'm just so bullish on Bitcoin veterans.
Well, thank you.
I mean, the Bitcoin veterans, I mean, the tagline that I like to phrase it as is like, we're educating the warrior class on Bitcoin, right?
Because a lot of the dudes that I served with and that I know and all the Bitcoin veterans for the most part, once you figure out Bitcoin, once you figure out there's this tool, right?
And we know how to use tools, right?
It's we know how to get things done, organize, like execute all these different tasks.
And it's also one of the things you learn in the military because you have to break down to like the lowest common denominator.
You learn how to like convey messaging, right?
So one of the things I had to do a lot was convey like technical details in a very like understandable way.
But that's common across the board, especially those guys that served for a long time.
And so you get people that are motivated, that know how to actually like execute and have like discipline.
And a lot of guys fall lax to the discipline part, but they know how to do it when they need it.
And so, I mean, it's crazy how big this Bitcoin veterans group has grown since it started.
It started as like a Twitter group chat and like Twitter spaces and stuff like that.
They're still running like a Twitter daily spaces or whatever, but we have a bunch of signal group chats.
of nothing but veterans across the United States.
And some of them are foreign.
There's a dude from Australia in there.
But they're all just actively engaged in meetups or whatever.
They're doing things with Bitcoin.
And even if it is just hodling and being the best plumber that they can be,
they're still doing the thing.
And once you realize you have a tool to spread these actual ideals
of individualism and liberty, and you don't have to hurt anyone,
that is immensely...
Because one of the things you get signed up for is like, oh, we're going to go defend the homeland, right?
Like we got to make sure that we take it over there so they don't come back over here.
It's like, no, no, no.
We don't need that anymore.
In fact, we can just subvert this whole apparatus by opting out into Bitcoin, taking whatever productive capacity we bring to society and putting it into this money that you can't fuck with and can't be co-opted by the state and used to nefarious means.
The analogy is like back in World War II or I think it was pre-World War II, it's like you had to do war bonds to go fund it.
So like if the people were psyoped into funding the war, then they were psyoped into funding the war and that's fine. But if they weren't, you couldn't just print money ad nauseum. And then the guys that can get over the hurdle of one understanding Bitcoin, because it's not everybody's going to get it. But then two coming to grips that like all the, all the forever wars that we fought in, like Afghanistan and Iraq and Syria and all this shit that we ended up doing was all blood money.
like just absolutely and that's like a hard cognitive dissonance to like deal with and you
see i mean one of the the facts uh you know veteran suicide it's like 22 a day or whatever
it's like the average number or something like that that's because guys they get out they don't
know how to identify as anything they don't know what they're supposed to be doing with their lives
and then potentially especially the forever war veterans um they get out and they realize that
like they did a lot of horrible shit and they don't know how to cope with that and there's no
way for them to like channel this piss and vigor inside of them for a better cause i mean it's not
everybody right but like you see the demographic of veterans in the united states that are rough
family lives multiple divorces like i know unfortunately i know way too many dudes that i
served with that were on like second or third marriages by the time they retired um and it's
because the military would just chew you up and spit you out you have this like adamant loyalty
to your brothers in arms right which is is good like you want that in a military unit
but it comes at a cost and that cost doesn't need to be paid necessarily.
And we can still accomplish the same goals of like protecting people.
And what I,
my personal like philosophy is like,
okay,
well I'm going to take this and bring it local.
Like the local community,
the local Bitcoin media.
If I started it like three years ago,
it's got a consistent group of dudes.
And now I'm just going to be like the local Bitcoiner and I will be public.
You know,
I'll wear this hat out and about like some people want to,
you know,
worry about Opsack and everything.
And it's a legitimate threat,
but small businesses in the area,
my kids soccer teams I volunteered at high schools all these different things There other ways of like plugging community and then like you just drop bitcoin casually you don press it and it like they know you the bitcoin guy so like when i show up to like a small business
meetup like oh hey gary it's like blah blah like sometimes they're like hey it's doing doing pretty
well and you get sometimes texts from people like hey man uh that bitcoin thing i bought a little
bit and so thank you very much um but i'm just waiting for them all to catch on and i think
veterans specifically because they're so good at like the organization and and the execution and
being like, it's almost like an unassailable position being a veteran in the U.S.
Like not a lot of people want to go hard against veterans, right?
Like the general population has this positive perspective of veterans.
And I think that's for good reason, because like you said earlier, we all signed up for
a, to, to defend our country, right?
To, to do, to be in service of our fellow man.
You know, some people join because they have no other choice.
Like they're going to go to jail or they got finances or whatever, but like a lot of people,
it's a voluntary force.
So they're signed up to like do good.
That's why you see a lot of people get out and like go into like local politics or like go in and continue to serve their community in whatever capacity they can.
And I think that Bitcoin veterans, one of the biggest things we do is like do that at the local level, which we're doing that, right?
Like it's not just me.
It's not just like the core cadre members.
It's like we've got people down in Florida, all across the United States that are like plugged into the local meetup and doing the thing.
but can you talk a little bit about like some of the because in addition to kind of like the
hyper local stuff you guys also have done some uh very much i mean uh not in your your your uh
your actual you know individual hometown but like in uh disaster relief situations like i think can
you talk about that a little bit because for folks that don't know i think that was just like that
was incredible to watch that happen as the government was like just kind of fumble fucking
around just not doing anything like yeah which was maddening so we had several guys within bitcoin
veterans some of the core countries so shane hazel if you're familiar with him um and then
another guy goes by operation libertas um the guy that wrote writes our daily intelligence bulletin
so there's like a daily intel bulletin that the bitcoin veterans put out um he was there and we
had just a number of other people's hunter was this guy hunter was there but they showed up to
respond to the disaster within days i think um and the crazy thing is so operational libertas i
ended up he was like hey i got this meshtastic thing and at the nashville conference i like
brought a bunch of the nodes and was like shilling it we did like ham radio stuff and he's like hey
man i want like 60 of those just for like my local community um you know he's he's plugged in he
understands like the advantageous like position you have when you have like off-grid comms um so
We happen to have 60 of these mesh-tastic radios.
And so as he's in East Tennessee, so as he's responding to this, they're like, oh.
We should say what this is also.
What's that?
What the actual disaster was.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Yeah.
Western North Carolina.
Yeah.
Hurricane Helene.
It's been over a year at this point.
But several of the guys went in there in their own trucks, loaded up as many fuel cans, generators, blankets, all kinds of stuff, and just went down to figure out how they could plug in.
What we ended up doing was linking up with this other group called Christian Rangers, which is run by some former soft guys.
And they were doing a similar thing.
So we ended up just kind of plugging in and like augmenting their force.
But what they were doing is they were going up and down the mountains through the hollers of Western North Carolina to find people to like check in on people.
And the crazy thing is like they weren't the only group.
So we plugged into just one group in one area.
and when you look at the guys that were doing this they were trained by the u.s government to
go do this kind of shit overseas right like you go to an austere location and work with minimal
resources to accomplish a task it just so happens this task was like providing aid and support to
the local populace of western north carolina so we're handing out like mesh tassik radios and
then we had a mesh tassik radio on a national guard helicopter because we got up to the national
guard like hey you know i'm you know so and so and i used to serve like well let me show you this
thing can you throw this on your bird and so the national guard helicopter had a mesh tassik on it
so as it's flying over anybody down on the holler could ping off of it and then it would broadcast
out to the rest of the network and so people were able to actually have communications before the
cell phone network and they didn't need like ham radio or anything like that um and it was i mean
it was critical i i don't know of like a definitive thing but i'm fairly certain like that saved lives
in that area because people were able to like get the word out um but it wasn't just that it was
you know other veterans other just like good old boys from the holler were like paving like
clearing roads and taking atvs to go and basically developing a physical network of people right where
it's like hey i'm gonna go over here and check in with these guys and then come back and report back
that's like a very very military thing right it's if you don't have any communications you just send
a runner just literally used to be just like a guy that would just run right that's like the whole
like marathon thing came from like the guy that ran the marathon to like alert about some army
But it's a very well-defined thing.
So when you have veterans running this sort of operation on home turf, that's the other thing.
Nobody ideally is going to be shooting at any of veterans.
It would be a bad idea anyway because we're all armed and proficient.
But they're there and people want you there, which was very, very different than Afghanistan and Iraq.
Not everybody wanted us there.
So putting the use of skills was super cool.
And I didn't personally go down myself.
I was definitely on some back-end chats coordinating with everybody.
But incredible. I mean, I got the photo updates and stuff. And like the other kind of contrast to like government support is like you had FEMA workers taking up hotels. It's like our dudes were sleeping in the back of their truck or sleeping in like a half built condo that some guy owned that he was like, yeah, just like go crash in here.
So in sleeping bags, sleeping on the floor, and then making these runs, like relaying messages back like, hey, they need wheat or hay for like the animals, they need fuel, and just gathering intel, right, which is what we're trained to do, and making that intel useful, making that intel like actionable.
So it was incredible.
I mean, we didn't have a lot of people.
It was really the people of the area that helped themselves a lot.
but there's one guy that we linked up who was like a former ranger and he ended up running this 50,000
square foot warehouse um and we ended up funding him through bitcoin right so we we raised over a
bitcoin um fundraising for the relief efforts and we probably spent spent a fraction of it maybe like
30k worth right because we had to do it all dollar denominated but um and then when the price bump is
like hey we still had resources left over to continue this bitcoin veterans thing um so that
That was humbling to be part of and just incredible to watch.
Because you run exercises stateside when you're in, where you're going to cities or remote training centers and running these exercises.
But this was like a no-shit real-world operation where we could put all these skills we had developed to use for the betterment of a community, for the betterment of this Western North Carolina.
it and then specifically bitcoin was able to like supercharge this by by funding the resources like
all these generators and clothes and blankets and everything that we bought um was all enabled
because we had bitcoin and then we got the guy set up with like a hardware wallet he's running
like a 50 000 square foot logistics hub out of this disaster zone um and he just kind of took
it and run it was kind of like we went in set them up taught them about how to like operate without
the assistance from the government because there was none and then you know you kind of pull back
and then check in every once in a while.
And there's more to come on that.
We actually made contact with a reporter down there
that we've been in touch with.
So stay tuned to Bitcoin Veterans.
We have more to come from that story
because it's not done, right?
Like it doesn't,
you don't just like show up for a couple of weeks
and like, hey, we're helping.
And then like leave.
You have to check back in.
You have to like make sure
that the self-sustainment is established.
And I think they're at that point,
But there's like way more to that story to be told aside from just like the small Bitcoin veterans part.
Yeah.
I mean, if you guys just like showed up for a little while and then like made yourselves known and then left, you'd just be the government.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
But you'd have to show up really late as well and overspend on it an ungodly amount and then funnel a good portion of that spending into, you know, NGOs.
Right.
You know, and various, various nonprofit organizations that are.
There's some of those that showed up.
Administrative support.
And it's like, that's the crazy thing.
It's like, I feel like anytime something like this happens, it's like, you see, you see that the average person or the above average person or the average Gary, uh, like people step up and help their fellow man.
They help their fellow citizen.
And the government's like, is always too slow to respond, always provides ineffective and inefficient support.
And then really doesn't actually do anything on a lasting level.
level like there isn't you know it's it's like well we we did we did our job and we filed our
report and now uh now that's all done and it's like because there's ultimately like no like
there's no accountability yeah no real accountability
which is just like insane because they're actually the ones that should be accountable
like the the average citizen or the you know the the veteran isn't actually accountable to anyone
there's there's no one forcing you to do that there you're just doing it because you want to do it
the government is accountable to actually all of its citizens and like,
because it's our taxpayer dollars and the money printed out of thin air that
funds all of that. And it's just like,
it just blows your mind that it makes you realize, you know, for the people,
it's like, Oh, you know, well, who's going to, you know,
who's going to build the roads without the government? It's like, well,
the government's not building like the roads, you know,
and other people built the roads,
like they took their own equipment and went and leveled where there used to be
a road, leveled it out. So that way, even a Tesla could just drive through it.
You don't need a four by four. Um, it was pretty crazy. I mean,
And on the Bitcoin Veterans thing, another thing I'll say is in November, we're running a Bitcoin Veterans Summit at the park in Nashville.
So Bitcoin Park in Nashville, November 10th and 11th, we're going to do a two-day event.
The first day is going to be like speakers and panels, your standard small-scale sort of like conference sort of thing.
But the cool thing is if you've never been to the park, there's two buildings.
So we'll have the speakers and the panels and stuff in one building.
And then the other building is going to be solely dedicated to just hands-on workshops.
So like if you've never handled a gun before, you can come to the conference and like we'll have one for you.
And in fact, it's useful because day two is a range day.
It's a range day and other stuff.
It's immediately prior to Nostraville.
But yeah, we're going to do another range day.
We did a range day back in Nashville last year for the conference.
Huge success.
And so come learn, like shoot guns, come discuss,
hear more about Bitcoin Veterans in this like two-day thing at Bitcoin Park.
I think it's bitcoinveterans.org slash summit 2025 is like the website.
And we're actually looking for speakers.
So if you're like a veteran listening to this,
and you're like, oh, that sounds super cool.
if you have something to showcase that's related somehow to bitcoin or any of the topics that
veterans cover which is like basically everything like we have like a tesla owners veterans chat
or like a pilot's chat right and you don't have to be a bitcoin veteran to be in these chats
we won't put you in like the regional chats those are veterans only but if you want to learn about
like mining if you want to learn about privacy or self-custody if you want to learn about business
and entrepreneurship or just like discuss these topics and you're a bitcoiner it'll be led and
moderated by Bitcoin veterans, but it's not exclusive to us. So it's just wild to see.
My phone is constantly, I have to constantly just read all messages in some of these chats,
because if you ignore it for too long, it just builds up. Half the guys can't keep up with half
the chats. But if there's a topic that you're into, the mining chat is very, very active.
And I think that parallels very well with, again, the veteran skill set of beans,
bullets, and Band-Aids is kind of like what you learn. That's the same thing that goes into mining
operations right you got like machines electrical equipment there's a lot of like blue collar skills
that veterans have that makes it very directly applicable to the mining industry which is
fantastic you want to talk about mining a little bit maybe because one of the one of the things we
did have on our on our docket was uh was was getting to that a little bit um you want yeah
where's a good place to start with that uh you let's we can say like i work on mining full-time
Yeah. Go ahead.
I'm a software engineer and I work on a big mining operation, we'll say.
And I specifically work on the pool side of things.
So I've been pretty involved, not pretty involved, lightly involved with Stratum B2 project.
But I am actively building a Stratum B2 pool right now.
And that has been awesome.
But just the mining itself, you don't realize...
I started just over a year ago and I had no idea what I was getting into
because it's a whole nother rabbit hole of Bitcoin.
Like there's all these rabbit holes in Bitcoin.
And I was like, oh, I went down all,
I got sick of the macro stuff and everything like that.
I'm like, okay, cool.
I got it.
It's going up forever, Laura, check.
But once I was, I got this opportunity to go work in mining,
doing software engineering.
I was like, oh, okay, yeah, sure.
And now I'm like in talks about like power generation
and like load balancing and like trying to learn
the nitty gritty of like, what are these data pieces that,
like what is the pool doing?
What does a mining pool do?
And that was all something that I had no idea. And when you look at the size and the scale of it, there was some statistic, like Tyler Stevens, who's a guy that does mining heat reuse, he wrote a whole book on it. And he made the assertion there, like, if you took all the energy that goes into comfort heating, right, so like heating for homes or water or whatever, like comfort heating, if you took, I think it was like 1% of that, and converted that energy to Bitcoin mining, we would bet three zeta hash.
That is like three times the current network hash rate.
And so when you kind of couple that with this idea that you can heat your house with a Bitcoin miner, you can heat water.
If you've never checked it out, there's this guy called, he goes by Schnitzel.
He has like a hot tub that he heats.
And it's a hot tub.
Like it's legitimately the temperature a hot tub should be.
But it's like two S19s heating the thing.
And so that sort of stuff was just mind blowing.
Like it was, you kind of know about this mining stuff, but you never really know the full depth of it.
But there's all like, you have to work.
The easiest thing most people Bitcoiners understand, I think, is like the 51% attack, right?
So it's like 51% of the hash rate.
If it's malicious, they can kind of like have an opportunity to reorg the block.
But there's like block withholding attacks.
And there's like hash rate hijacking.
There's all these different aspects on the technical side of Bitcoin, where if you're
sending your hash rate, like clear text over the internet, somebody can just intercept that
and redirect it or like inject themselves into the middle of that, right?
so there's a whole bunch of like considerations uh and that's one of the reasons why i started
digging into the research on like strategy b2 is because it's a net better protocol there's
just saying strategy b1 it doesn't even have like a specification at all um but strategy b2 defines
a very well specced out protocol for like how you do this mining thing but then it brings like a
bunch of other things like end-to-end encryption right so you no no longer have like this snooping
person that can steal your hash rate um it has like authentication right so you give it the
server's pub key and that way your devices if it's not the same pub key it knows it's not talking to
the right server right so even those two things alone with strategy b2 is objectively a better
protocol than anything else you're going to do with strategy one um and then you get into the
whole like block template creation if you haven't been following like the whole ocean thing so they
created this thing called datum um super smart guy jason hughes wrote the whole thing in like c
programming language and it's like super hyper-oppermise and like can run off of one bar of
cellular 2g internet um and it was solving a lot of the same problems that shred and b2 addresses
but it was like he just did it in like six months because he had no it's still shred and b1 and he
had like no like barriers where shred and b2 it's actually three protocols so there's like the
protocol itself and then you have the mining protocol which is like the machines to the pool
and then you have something called the the template distribution protocol which is like
how to talk to the node. And those are pretty well defined. But then the thing they've added on is
this thing called job declaration, which is like, if I want to create my own template to mine on,
I need to negotiate with the pool. So that way payouts are correct. And like, there's like a
negotiation that happens. So it's actually these three different protocols that are all crammed
into one, which is like this huge space of understanding and engineering that you kind
of have like wrap your head around. And then, you know, there's mining all the, the fact that
mining pursues the cheapest energy available pushes it to the edges and then it also pushes
it to very like energy dense locations so nuclear right or nuclear whatever however you want to
pronounce that um that that's big in mining right coupling it with ai you have this spiky ai load
or you need like massive amount of energy for like training a new model what do you do with that
energy when you're not training the next newest model well you could be buying mining bitcoin
with it or just in general data centers with like spiky load right there's a a balance to the grid
where you have to like keep it at this like exact frequency otherwise things blow up and people
potentially die and so the engineering that goes into these like critical electrical systems
and the coupling that with bitcoin mining has been fascinating to say at least because
it's like this battery that just prints money for you it's somewhere you can send the energy
and use it for a different purpose
and then just like scale it down
when you need the energy back.
I feel like people,
just like the average person,
like the average person,
one, doesn't understand Bitcoin, right?
The average person also like
really doesn't understand energy
and like how, like, you know,
and they think, well, if I, you know,
if I plug something into the wall,
well, that's just electricity,
nice clean electricity.
Like they don't even know like where,
like they haven't even thought about it further
than like at the wall where i plug stuff in or you know like people plug like well i'm i'm you
know i'm charging my my tesla so i'm you know i'm i'm saving the planet here and it's like where
is the energy coming from where where is it coming you think it just appears there and then like the
load balancing side that was something i actually like did not understand until bitcoin and started
going down that and that's just like fascinating because it's like look it's it's not just like
uh you can't just either have a have a like if you have a ton of energy like that's great you've
got all this excess like solar and wind you know at certain times of the day because it's intermittent
but then like what do you do with that if you don't use like you have to use it or you have to
just run it into the ground and waste it which is like what like you're like i mean famously like
the uk is spending something like over a billion dollars a year on curtailment right now because
they overproduce at certain times and it's just insane and people just don't get and then you have
this like this solution that's sitting right there that's like well you should just like print
bitcoin with it like not out of thin air like out of energy and we're still like that we're just
we're so very early on so many parts of this because people haven't even begun to realize
there is this like solution that fixes so many of these problems and it happens to also like it's
also the hardest money that's ever been discovered like it's just like one one two punch like it's
perfect the uh the cool so if you're not familiar with sort of like energy infrastructure stuff
there's a book called one second after highly recommend it it basically sets a premise like
you find out eventually it's been out for a while so there's no spoiler alerts but
emp detonates in the atmosphere above the eastern seaboard and wipes out all modern electronics
and then it's a fictional story set in the in the foothills of ashville north carolina
where there's no electricity right all modern cars are gone all like modern everything so like the
dude the main character like there's some like old carbureted chevy that they have so like they
happened to have a car but you know uh his daughter's like type one diabetic well they can't
keep insulin cold right so like the medication runs out within a couple weeks logistics hub run
out within a couple days like grocery stores don't have more than like a few days worth of food at a
time and if trucks are not bringing your food to you then you have nothing unless you're growing it
yourself so it's a really good fictional story it's written back in 2001 i think like the guy
wrote it to try to highlight the fragility of our electrical infrastructure and infrastructure
in general in the United States.
Well, then 9-11 happened, right?
And everybody was like, oh, terrorism, right?
So it didn't gain the traction that he wanted
because there was this other new shiny thing
to go print money and do.
And now I think it's not surprising to anybody
that the infrastructure in the United States
is really old and decrepit.
But ideally, Bitcoin mining helps kind of revitalize that
and pay for the rebuilding of the infrastructure.
I think that's one of the most promising things
when you look at like what Bitcoin mining enables.
And it's, you know, not just the like rebuilding
of existing infrastructure to modernize it
or to build out the grid in more remote areas,
but it's also like in areas like not just in the US,
but around the world where it's like,
they don't like, there is no infrastructure to rebuild
because they've never had it.
It's actually something where you can now
make that economical to do instead of relying on,
you know, various NGOs again and different grants
and things like that that are, you know, you're dependent on somebody else and there's a lot of
money being, you know, slipped into people's pockets behind the scenes. It's like you can,
you can just mine Bitcoin and actually fund the build out of that infrastructure in a really
sustainable way. And I think that that's just super powerful. One of the things that I'd like
to kind of circle back on a little bit with the stratum V2, as it relates to kind of relates to
the template creation and whatnot is just your thoughts on kind of mining pool centralization
broadly, like how you view this. This is obviously the miners that I talked to. And from what I've
looked at, it's like, it's kind of like, should be a top concern for folks.
Yeah. So it's interesting enough, like Stratton B2 has nothing to do with mining
decentralization, datum as well, right? Like the block template creation is not really
where you're going to get the centralization, like stick it, stake into the heart of it.
it's the accounting, right?
So you have the various different payout mechanisms
for basically the pool will price your hash rate
based on whatever accounting mechanism they want, right?
And it's all in the terms of services
if you're mining to like one of these big publicly traded pools
and stuff like that.
Even Ocean, right?
You can go read their Tides documentation
and understand exactly how they're going to pay you out.
But my assertion, my belief is it's not really that.
It is this thing called FPPS which is full pay per share meaning we gonna give you a set amount for every mining share you submit to me And if you not familiar with what mining share is it like your ASIC your mining device found an almost block
Like it's a block that is good enough, but it's not good enough for the Bitcoin network.
But it's enough to demonstrate to me as a mining pool that you are doing this work, right?
You're doing all these hashes constantly over and over.
And so it gets into this thing called a poison distribution and this like statistical thing
where it's like, if you can provide me X number of shares within a given window of time, I
know that you have Y amount of hash rate.
And so I can kind of pay you out for that as long as you're mining to my pool.
So what you see is like these big mining operations, they have month to month electricity costs,
right?
They have to pay bills every month.
And so if your operation is not big enough to win a block, then you're not going to get
paid and you go bankrupt, right?
And so this FPPS thing where it's like, hey, we're going to pay you no matter what, just send us your hash rate. What it means is, one, you're not pricing your hash rate. The pool is pricing your hash rate for you. And then two, they're kind of like subsidizing you, right? They're saying, hey, we're going to pay you no matter what. And then there's definitely margins factored in there because the pool wants to make money. So we'll put some margin in there and take a cut off the top.
And what that's led to is like this giant centralization because you need massive bags of Bitcoin to kind of float the luck variance.
And the luck variance is, hey, I have X amount of hash rate.
I'm expected to win Y amount of blocks per day.
And it's either going to be like reality is it's going to be either less or more of that.
And so if it's less of that and you're just getting explicitly paid out in those blocks and you don't have enough hash rate to win a lot of blocks, you go bankrupt.
If it's more than that, like that's great.
You win.
But what these FVPS schemas do is they pay consistently to the miners. So the mining operations love it because they know exactly how much hash rate they can give and exactly how much hash rate, you know, how much, how many Bitcoin they're going to get back out of that hash rate or dollars really, right? Because a lot of the mining operations might not necessarily be Bitcoiners per se. They're just like, hey, I've got cheap energy. I'm just going to plug in a bunch of ASICs. And so they're just mining and they don't care about like the centralization factors.
This actually leads into another topic I wanted to discuss, which is this thing called eHash, which sounds a lot.
You asked me earlier, like, are you sure?
Did you mean eCash?
And I was like, yes, but no.
Yeah, so what is this?
Yeah, so eHash is something I've been working on with this guy.
He goes by VNPRC on Noster.
And he's done a lot of the heavy dev work on it.
But the concept is these shares that you're mining up to the pool, you issue a cash you token or eCash token for each one of those shares.
And so what that means is as you're mining to me as like the hash pool, I'm issuing you blinded tokens, right?
I'm issuing these eCash pieces and you're accumulating those.
They have no value, right?
They're speculative in nature at this point.
But because it's eCash and there's like a break, a linkage between me knowing you as like a miner.
I know that like I'm issuing these to you and I know how many I'm issuing to you.
But when you go give them to somebody else and they bring them back to me, I don't know that it came from you originally, right?
And that's like a basic principle of eCash in general.
But when you apply this to mining, now you don't have accounts for a mining pool.
You can simply say, hey, this share is valid.
Let me give you an eCash token for it.
And you don't need an account with me necessarily.
I don't care who you are, right?
I just know that you're giving me valid proof of work that shows that you're hashing to my pool, to my Coinbase or whatever it is.
And so you can go on a secondary market.
You don't have to come to me necessarily, but you can go sell these e-hash tokens for whatever rate that you want.
And up until there's a block one or a reward paid out, it's a speculation.
You have no idea what you can guess based on hash rate and everything like that.
So you get your local OG to come float your bags if you have a mining operation that is unlucky or something like that.
And they can just buy these from you up until the point of a payout and keep the operation going.
um the other cool thing about it is because it's e-cash it's integrated with nostr and so like
anybody anywhere can can buy these uh and now you get to decide what your hash rate is you can hold
on to them right and then when the mining pool gets paid out now there's a definitive point in
time where i have all of these e-hash shares outstanding and then i earned this many sets
for my mining payout and you just do a very basic function or however you want to account for it
But now you can know the definitive value of one e-hash that you've issued.
So speculation up until a reward is found, right?
And maybe that's a payout via Ocean over Bolt 12 Lightning.
Or maybe it's an on-chain payment.
But either way, that payment comes into the e-cash mint.
And now if it's Lightning, you have inbound liquidity coming in over Lightning
that you can go redeem your e-hash for actual sats on Lightning outbound.
And it's like a balanced channel, right?
Because Lightning, you have to balance these channels.
so that's the whole premise of this thing called e-hash and it's just e-cash tokens for mining
shares and it just sets up a new market dynamic that i think lowers the threshold of economic
viability for a mining operation you don't have to go find some huge bag of bitcoin to make sure
that your monthly electricity bill is cost if you're mining with e-cash you can kind of have
a marketplace of these e-cash shares that can be traded about or you can hold on to it and then like
when a payout happens, you go to the Mint and say, hey, give me real sats. And then the payout
happens. And you're already, like the trust assumption, you're already trusting a mining
pool anyway, right? You're trusting that Ocean's going to pay you out. You're trusting that
Foundry or Antpool or whatever these brains pool. You're trusting that they're going to pay you out
up until a point. So there's no like net new trust assumption, but you get this added benefits of
e-cash privacy and this added benefit of like, I don't need to know your account, right? I can just
issue these e-cash shares. And as long as you bring them back to me or whoever brings them back
to me, it's a valid signature that I can check with cryptographic irrefutability. We're good.
I don't care who you are. Now you still have the metadata of like, I'll see your IP address and I'll
see the amount of hash rate you have and all this other stuff, but that's already the current
paradigm. So if we can introduce this, and this is the same sort of argument from the e-cash
side of things where it's, hey, we're going to still have custodians. They're not going away.
In fact, they're increasing. So why would we not want every custodian to be an eCash Mint? So that way, even if you're going to rug me, any of the exchanges I use can rug me at any minute for whatever sats that I leave on there. And it's my fault. Same thing with a caching Mint. Any sats that I leave in a caching Mint, it can rug at any point. The difference being my exchange of choice, River, could rug just me.
They could be like, yeah, Gary, you're a bad guy now.
I'm removing all of your account and everything like that.
With an eCash mint, it's like all or nothing.
I either rug everyone or I rug no one because there's this private...
I can't determine which ones I...
The eCash you have, when you bring it back to me, I don't know where it originated from.
I don't know that it was a bad eCash or anything like that.
So it's just like a net benefit improvement.
And now we're applying it to mining specifically for the shares.
i think that's that's super fascinating and like i think the e-cash stuff like shout out to to cali
for uh for cashew because like there's just been so much incredible development on that like just
in like the he was on the show like maybe like a little over a year ago almost a year and a half
ago and just like since then it's been wild and now you're bringing this other paradigm and it's
one of those things where like it again yes uh you acknowledge it up front as cali always does
like look yes you can be like rugged by this but they have to rug everybody it's the best shit coin
yeah yeah like it's it yes there is a trade-off it's not layer one bitcoin correct like now that
we've got that out of the way it serves a really important purpose which is having near perfect
privacy which we obviously like oh my god all all this it's like there's always a new data breach
right like this what was this app uh did you see this about a tea or something the app where women
could like oh yeah and leaked all their driver's licenses and information it turns out shockingly
that the company that was running this did not in fact delete the selfies and the driver's license
photos that they took who could have guessed like the company actually lied about that and now all
of that's out there now they just i just saw before we got on here like private you know private
messages also leaked throughout this and it's like but this happens at every like this isn't just like
with stupid you know rating men apps like this happens with everything this happens with exchanges
This happens with bank account. This happens at every level of our interaction with the financial system where there is KYC, AML shit in place. And it's just like, wherever we can remove that, we should. And that seems to be what this is doing here at a really important level, which is at the mining level, right?
Yeah. Yep. It's giving you an opportunity to have private accountless mining rewards. And that's not something that exists right now. I mean, it exists because like, so VMPRC did all the code heavy lifting. He did a BTC++ back in May, I think. He did a presentation on like the accounting piece of it, like FPPS, PPLNS, all these like acronyms of how mining payouts happen.
that was right before my live demonstration of a proof of concept where i like mined e-hash and
then talked about the technical specifics and then at the end of it i went and like copied the
cashew token out of the mining logs and went to a web wallet that i just slightly modified to say
like hey you have this new currency called hash and i redeemed an e-hash token in like a web wallet
it's like one of the most i can't it's like nutstash or something like that but one of the
commonly used web wallets and it worked like and there's a video on youtube you can go watch of it
and so um we're at the point bmpc is is luckily funded to a degree to like continue work on this
kind of stuff but the mining technical mining ecosystem um i think is going to see a huge
renaissance with the advent of like the bid axe was huge right to like break open this open source
hardware aspect it like get unique and novel form factors for bitcoin mining because the shoebox
size of like these bitcoin miners don't fit all applications we need smaller scale more modular
and everything like that you get that you get stradden b2 which is like a robust very modular
uh way of like doing mining um and then you couple it with like these novel accounting things called
e-hash and like things are going to rip baby it's going to be awesome i think that's so good i still
you were nice enough to sell me a bid axe for sats when we were together, which was great. Just
a nice little P2P transaction. And I still actually have to set mine up. It's sitting
right over. After this, this is going to be a tonight project for me, I think. Now that I've
seen you, I've got to be held accountable. But I love all of these things that are really,
you know and we were talking about democracy earlier but for lack of a better word democratizing
there we go that bad boy bit x gamma 602 it's the same chip that's in an s21 right so you get the
same like efficiency but it's one chip now they're making boards that look like you ever do like a
gaming card in your pc yeah so we are going to have like a pcie card that like just goes into
your computer and it's like a hundred or so watts with a bunch of these chips like 12 of these chips
on it that you can just plug into your computer and mine from your computer, which by the way,
might be running a Bitcoin node, right? So like, or can do whatever you want to do with it. You can
have it running your thermostat or any of these things. The 256 foundation, if you never talked
to those guys, that's, they'd be a good one to chat with. They're the ones pushing. I think
their mission statement is to like dismantle the proprietary Bitcoin mining empire, which is a
pretty admirable and thing that I can get down with. Yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a
great mission statement right there yeah and i mean so that's the thing like obviously we're seeing
there is a trend toward centralization uh like with these like if you look at the pool distribution
right it's like it's a little bit it's a little bit scary but at the same time we do have there's
all this uh this kind of grassroots bottom up counter movement that is like enabling plebs
to be able to mine at whatever scale whether it's you know you know just plugging in one bit
and like, you know, doing your small part
or anything in between there,
like that gives me a lot of hope
because like this is still like early days
of some of these much more like one economical
because not everybody has the cash to shell out,
you know, for a brand new, you know,
top of the line mining rig.
Right.
And on the other hand, it's just like,
it's like, it's a fun thing
where people actually have the ability
to participate in the Bitcoin network
in a way that they maybe previously
didn't have exposure to.
And I feel like the more people that do that,
that just gets more people psyched about like the actual like getting down into the nitty gritty
ethos of like why the fuck we're here doing this in the first place right like like because again
like you we are trying to get away from centralization some centralization is always
gonna like many systems will trend toward that like that's somewhat natural from like a you know
an efficient economic perspective like i get why these pools suck in a lot of capital like
it makes sense it's efficient yeah yeah yeah and like and it makes it a lot easier for you when
you're just direct you know okay point my hash right at the pool good to go but like on the
other hand it's like we should do everything we can to uh to have that bottom-up movement that is
trying to separate or to uh no to add in as many new sources of hash power as possible no matter
how small right like every you know every bid axe matters it's crazy because i've met you know now
being in mining, I had to go to some of these mining specific events. And I met a guy that has
multiple old army generators. They're not generators, but I can't remember the name for it,
but they're bigger, right? It's lots of power that you fuel this thing with and bought it for
pennies on the dollar sort of thing off of Facebook marketplace and then took it to his
flare gas site and plugged it in and it is hashing with it, right? And it's not a small amount of
hash right it's it's several actual you know full-fledged s19s or better and it's cheap power
so he's doing pretty well because he's printing bitcoin with his bitcoin miners and he can mine
to anywhere in the world right you just need a very very minimal robust connection starlink works
great now but if you don't you could do like they were doing uh long-range wi-fi out in west texas
and some of these sites where it's just like point to point like you point a wi-fi antenna and you
You can get very, very like the higher frequencies with radio.
You can like point them and direct them and they go really, really far and you get really high data rates.
You don't need super robust.
You can do like long range Wi-Fi over miles to connect your Bitcoin miner up to whatever pool you want to.
And like you're mining stats in the middle of nowhere.
I mean, that's what they're doing in Africa, right?
Like these African villages, they're like, oh, there's a hydro dam.
Yeah, sure.
We'll just come bring Bitcoin miners and we'll pay to like establish electrical infrastructure so you can have lights.
so your kids can learn how to read and like refrigeration so you can have like fresh food
and stuff like that that these people have never had before in their lives and the people doing it
was like yeah i'm i'm making money off of this but like i'm making money by doing a good thing
right bringing electricity to a village in the middle of africa is a noble thing to do i believe
i i agree and like i uh gladstein's coverage of a lot of that has been awesome i think that's like
what's helped bring it into kind of somewhat more of the the mainstream eye even though again like
vast majority of people still just have no idea what's what's going on with anything related to
bitcoin like we are still very early but at the same time like these are the kind of stories that
end up getting like that end up getting picked up right like it's one of those things like you just
can't like you know trying to like argue against like veterans or like it's like you're trying to
argue against like electrifying a rural african village so that kids can you know be able to
actually have light to see by and like like it just like what are you gonna argue how are you
going to argue against that or like oh yeah i'm taking this flared gas and i hooked up a generator
to it so it's no longer just burning you know into the atmosphere and now i'm turning this into
bitcoin like what what's your what's your argument like your argument against that there isn't a
rational argument against that there is only like an irrational argument that maybe makes sense in
the brains of somebody like elizabeth warren but not in anybody that is actually being you know
being honest with themselves or everybody else and like i love that kind of stuff it's like the
landfill gas mining as well like another type of flared mining where it's like yes this is awesome
because what are you going to say against this like it's just it's good it is a good thing and
we should have as much of it as possible like great thank you bitcoin miners for your ingenuity
like we should be praising this kind of stuff and i think that i mean obviously there's been a vibe
shift in terms of the the overall recognition of bitcoin but back to what where we started with
this in terms of talking to some of the staffers in DC, especially Democratic staffers, which is
all I talked to being from Illinois. Yep. There's still so many misperceptions out there. And people
have this tendency, like, because Trump speaks positively about Bitcoin, that must mean that
being positive about Bitcoin is a Trump thing. It's like, people, you are only hurting yourselves
and your constituents when you associate Bitcoin with Trump. It's, it's like, it's not his,
it's everyone's it's anyone's you're just literally only hurting yourself and i think i hope more
people are coming around to that on the other hand it's like a lot of these people are just really
really really old and they just won't be in office much longer and that's how things are going to
change and we've had a whole new influx of bitcoiners too that because trump is like bitcoin
like you know i live in a pretty red area rural agricultural area and so like some people when
And Trump was like, Bitcoin, yay.
They came back and were like, hey, Gary, you still doing that Bitcoin thing?
And I'm like, yeah, what do you want to know?
They're like, oh, what Trump's talking about.
I was like, okay, I don't care.
It works for me the same as it works for him.
So if you want to learn, I will teach you.
You just have to take the time out of your day to come and let me rant at you, I guess.
That's the hard part.
You've got to find the entry point for everyone.
Yeah.
I had the same experience.
A couple of my really good buddies, I love these dudes.
They're good friends of mine and smart dudes too.
Very smart and successful dudes, but just couldn't get them to really give too much of a shit about Bitcoin.
And then it was like Trump came out and they were like, all right, I'll get some.
And I was like, okay.
My first meetup attendee is one of my local friends here.
He showed up, like the only person to show up.
I had slides on a projector on a wall of like a side room in a restaurant.
And I gave my like 101 presentation.
He still is a no-coiner to my knowledge, even though I've been like, hey, whenever you want to set up your wall, he said, oh, yeah, I'll figure it out eventually.
And it's just like, it's just not – but he gets everything.
Like I met him through like sort of like libertarian circles in the area.
So he gets like, and the Fed, he gets the problem with all of modernity.
Right.
And, but has yet to like, take it upon himself to like actually do the thing.
And it just, I mean, at this point, I'm just like, all right, that's whatever, dude.
Does he still come to meetups?
No, no, no.
He came to that one and that was it.
Like, yeah, it doesn't go to meetups.
Just kind of was like, oh, thanks for having me.
Like, that's cool.
But yeah, still a no-coiner as far as I know.
People are funny.
I think sometimes it's like a lot of people, just especially in the USA, like if you're doing okay, like if you're not, if the fiat system hasn't totally beat you down yet, or at least you're not aware of how much it's beaten down your potential, you're just like, well, you know, maybe this sounds interesting, but like, I don't really need it or whatever this, you know, this magic internet money.
I don't really need it yet.
Yeah.
Whereas depending on what part of the world you're from, like if you're from a place where the currency has been devalued by half overnight multiple times in your own lifetime, like, oh, yeah, you get why you might want something that has an absolutely capped total supply.
or if, for instance, you've had your bank account shut down,
you very quickly understand why censorship-resistant money
is a really good thing and you would want that.
You don't have to explain why those things are good
to people who have experienced the negative side of that equation.
For people that haven't, it's a tougher sell.
Even if you talk about inflation, it's like,
yeah, look, this cabal of central bankers
is literally stealing your life's work from you.
but it's like, yeah, but it's not that much, you know,
my stock portfolio is up. So I've got no problem.
Well, my house is, my house is worth, you know,
worth more than it more than it was. Cause I, you know,
I bought it pre COVID and now it's doubled in value. Like that's another,
this is a digression, but like, it's wild to like, look,
look at the real estate markets, like pretty much across the board,
but certain areas, obviously more so than others.
Like you look at the pre COVID prices for real estate and it's just like,
oh my god like it was just like it was literally like half in many cases of what it what it is now
like they prices literally doubled in across so we bought into equity we bought in 2021
this is like pre-bitcoin right i mean it's like we got rates through the floor we got like a good
price because we locked it in they built the house um but like the price of the house like
the reason I get all these equity scam calls all the time is like,
oh, well, they know that the house value went up.
And I'm like, no, it hasn't.
Like there's a nick on the wall now.
It's like a brand new nice house.
Like it's definitely gone down to value because we've used the shit out of it.
And people just don't understand it.
It is wild.
It's like, and houses are like,
houses are great for living in and for raising a family in.
And, you know, for, you know, for using.
they're just really, really bad stores of value compared to Bitcoin.
Because Bitcoin doesn't get that nick in the wall.
Bitcoin doesn't have the water heater blow out or whatever might happen like that.
Bitcoin just perfectly exists in its state forever Whereas your house is just like it just gets beaten up and it it a liability right It costing you more money Like it
unless you are putting in a ton of money to it,
to remodel it or to do upgrades to it,
to add a new addition,
whatever,
like it's not getting more valuable.
Like it's,
you know,
and,
but people just,
we have not been ingrained that way.
And that's why a house that's,
you know,
30,
40 years old,
that is,
you know,
not had anything done to it and has just kind of degraded into
deteriorated little by little it's worth you know 10 15 times as much as it was when it was built
and it's just like but we're like people just aren't ready for that yet and i think like people
it's going to be actually really messy when people really start realizing like four years from now
like oh wait like this whole bitcoin thing like it really is repricing my house like hold on bitcoin
was worth how much now in my house is worth this like the math is going to break people's brains
It should already if you've looked at the math.
But again, we're still so fucking early.
Well, it's like the median home prices now.
What was it?
It was, oh, one Bitcoin is like 0.28 of a median home.
It's one of the things.
So the Bitcoin veterans, DIB, the Daily Intelligence Bulletin, one of the prices he puts in there is like ounces of gold.
Obviously the fiat price.
But then like how much of a median home can you buy with one Bitcoin?
and that's cool to watch out because that number is like going up because eventually a median home
in the u.s is it's going to be one bitcoin like you with one bitcoin you will be able to buy a
house which is ridiculous to think of um especially where like i'm always flabbergasted when i sit
back and reflect on just like the historical and like the the convergence of all the things like
understanding sort of like economics australian economics and everything like that right having a
job in like engineering um having read like rich dad poor dad understanding that like real estate
is not an asset sort of thing was like that framing gave it to me being very tuned into budgeting and
then like i hit this bitcoin thing and it's like this perfect convergence of like all of these
things in my past that i went hard and fast down the rabbit hole this was like end of 21 early 22
and like all throughout the bear i'm just like a rabid bitcoiner like telling and they're like
it's going down what are you talking about i was like no but you don't understand
oh you know part of me wishes like as we're as you know we're pumping around it i know
bitcoin's boring right now because it's only at like you know 118 000 or something and only
the memories of goldfish apparently but like part of me like yeah it's a number go up is fun but boy
number go down is really fun too because it means you can actually stack cheap sats while everyone
else is freaking out like so i just paid i wouldn't mind 58k gang again is all i'm saying
throwing it out there. It'd be painful. But like,
there might be a problem for my marriage because I would like liquidate everything.
And my wife's not cool with that yet. So, you know, it might be a problem, but I would take it
on the number go down though. The number goes down that like the dollar number go down. That's
not important, right? It's nice. But I just paid my rancher today for another head and a half of
cattle. The head into the half of cattle was cheaper than the full head of cattle last time
in Bitcoin terms because I paid Bitcoin. So like the first time I bought a head of cattle,
it was like 16 million sats, right? The second time I bought it was 8 million sats. The third
time was 7 million sats. And this time I just paid 5.8 million sats for a head and a half
of cattle. So it's like when I talk about that, like that's one of the, I'm still on Facebook
due to local small business stuff and like the gym that we're members of, very strong like
Facebook presence and I only post Bitcoin propaganda.
But one of my favorite thing to post on there is like,
everything's getting cheaper for me.
It's so wonderful.
And I have a friend who's like a giant think boy engineer at one of the big
tech companies that just like loves to do the,
all the highbrow FUD.
And I'm just waiting when we flip NVIDIA,
that's where he works.
When we flip NVIDIA,
that's when I will have a leg to stand on with him as far as he's concerned.
So it's so close to,
yeah,
like we're,
we're,
we're very,
we're just,
you know,
it's just the grim reaper knocking on that door.
Like it's,
it's,
it's one after another.
Yeah.
When the number go down for me,
like I got three kids,
right?
So,
you know,
the wedding costs of,
of my kids in the future goes down over time in Bitcoin terms,
right?
The tuition,
like you put away some money for tuition and it's like,
Oh,
look at,
we didn't actually have to spend all the Bitcoin we bought for the
tuition because we pumped.
Congratulations.
Like it's a complete reframing.
And I think that that's like, we've been so conditioned to think that everything must get more expensive.
Like that it just, not that it must even, that's just what happens.
Like this is just a normal part of things.
Everything just gets more expensive.
I know for me and for a lot of people, I think Jeff Booth's The Price of Tomorrow was like a huge, just like eye-opening thing.
Like I was already partially down the Bitcoin rabbit hole.
But then I read that and like I've read it again since then.
And it was just like one of those like moments where I thought, oh my God, the scale of the
theft is so much worse than I realized because everything should be getting like necessarily
should be getting cheaper because technology makes it cheaper.
Like duh.
But you know, until you hear those simple words expressed in that way, like it's obvious
in hindsight, but until you hear it, you don't really, you don't really grok it.
Like, I think that's why, that's why his book was so profound for so many people.
It's because you just needed to hear that.
And then once you hear it, you're like, oh, my God, like they are really stealing from us.
Just hand over fist year after year.
And it's disgusting.
The other Jeff that I like to follow only on Noster, Dr. Jeff Booth or Ross.
Ross.
Yeah.
Jeff Ross.
He just posted something earlier today.
I saw he was like bullish on blue collar skills, bearish on white collar skills.
That to me, because like have you tried vibe coding yet?
No, not really.
I mean, beyond just like a little tinkering.
Like, no, no, I have not to a significant level.
It's incredible.
And I've demoed this at BitDev.
So one of the other things I do is I help run DC BitDevs.
So if you're ever in the DC area, we do it like usually the third Thursday of the month.
We'll end up most likely at PubKey eventually.
So PubKey DC is coming.
And that's probably where BitDevs will rehome itself eventually.
We got booted out of the strategy headquarters.
But presenting there, I was like, hey, what do you want to build?
Right?
Like anybody in the crowd.
What do you want to build?
And then I just put it into the prompt.
I was like, hey, I put on.
So what you can do is you can open up the prompt and then turn on like speech to text.
And then you just talk to it.
And that's it.
And then you just tell it what you want.
And it just, I mean, it shits something out.
It's not going to be production quality, right?
It's not going to, you're not going to like run a business on something that you vibe code necessarily.
But as an engineer, I know how to talk to this thing as an engineer.
and I treat it like an intern that doesn't talk back,
doesn't get tired and does exactly what I tell it to do.
So it's like, I've learned now, it's like, okay,
as long as I can tell it exactly what I want,
I've gotten better at sort of like framing
the context of everything.
I mean, this thing is incredible.
It's like, yes, all the white collar jobs are going away.
All the jobs, let me rephrase that.
All the jobs that require just like pushing paper around
and like Excel spreadsheets and all this other,
like it's going to go away.
Like you're not going to need a team of 10 accountants to run the books.
You're going to have like a couple of dudes maybe that are using AI to like run the books for you.
And it will be better than the team of 10.
Well, I think too, a lot of the low level programming jobs are going away.
Like I think India's economy is going to get destroyed.
And like people are like, it's been good for them for a while.
like it all of those like fiverr type low level you know like grunt work programming jobs those
are going away like they're and they will not come back because you don't need like it's not
like you need to have your you know a really competent engineer and then like a team of like
grunts who are doing all the really boring setup stuff but it still needs to be done because like
it's you know a necessary part of you know the process now it's just like no you can just have
that one engineer just literally have have ai handle it like they can just literally vibe code
what they need this seven like we're still in the early innings of this we're like it's going to get
exponentially better i currently have increasing rate like three vibe coding sessions up right now
on my computer like what do you use what's your what's your preferred if you're gonna do software
i found that claude i mean i think any of them probably will get you there if you're not technical
but the claude models from my experience and like understanding is like they've kind of
honed in on like software and like being really good for like engineers and stuff like that
and then like the Goose
which is blocks open source like AI thing
that's really powerful
I had one of my friends who's like
yeah I've been thinking about writing a book stuff
I'm like go download this Goose thing
plug it in sign up for Grok or whatever
like it interfaces with all these different AIs
and I was like just talk to it
like tell it your book idea
tell it exactly what it is
and it can build out everything you need for it
right you can be like hey
I want to create a rough draft outline
about blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
and it will do that
and then if it's wrong you just say
hey not i didn't mean i meant this i meant not that and it takes some back and forth but
i can't type faster than this thing just shits out code like it will just if you give it a very
and it's interesting right um in the software world there's this thing called agile that's
come around in like more recent times where it's like iteration and iteration everything like that
and then it used to be in the past it was this thing called waterfall where you define all the
requirements up front and now i'm like waterfall is the way to go because if i give all the very
specific requirements if i need a database i need a web server i need a user interface and i tell it
exactly what kind of database i tell it what i need on the web server what kind of data like
you can outline everything up front and then you tell it to go and it's really good it's really good
and then you just tweak it right like and that's where you need the engineering skills still is
like when you see something that's not ideal or like what you didn't intend you got to be you know
you treat it like an intern you go no do it again it was wrong and it goes you're absolutely right
like that's claude's phrase is like you're absolutely right so it feels good too i've
i've really uh uh the primary way i guess i've just more vibe brainstormed uh with ai because
like if i'm if i'm driving or whatever i'll just put it into like full like voice conversation mode
like either grok or uh or chat gbt and just like go back and forth and like okay i want to like
I want to flesh, like flesh this particular idea out, like, or, you know, even like, like,
you know, just to create like different, like engaging questions for interviews or something
like, like trying to like think about ways that I haven't, uh, haven't approached certain
questions within Bitcoin yet, but approach it from the lens of this particular person
who I'm going to be talking to as this type of background.
And like, it's honestly so nice to like, from a hands-free perspective, to be able to just
like, to do that, to have that conversation.
And like, again, that's, that interface is just getting even better too.
uh and it like that's the thing the pace of change is just astonishing and like and it's it's pretty
cool to see that like this just enables the like uh okay it doesn't turn a uh a retarded person
into like a genius right but it allows a smart competent person to be augmented to an insane
degree beyond what you would usually be able to accomplish and like i like i mean i think at this
when it's like pretty much everybody who is you know of above average intelligence is using these
tools but i feel like that gap is just going to continue widening between like the actual achievers
and the laggards because this is just an accelerate like this is a this is a cat this is an accelerant
right like yeah it is making the flames go higher i'm cooking some things i don't want to talk about
it too soon but like i've got i've got something cooking um that i'm pretty excited about um it
involves Nostra and eCash. I'll just say that. Okay. Okay. So, and I think it is, I think it is,
it is a novel use case. So we'll, we'll see, we'll see what the masses think. And it, on top of that,
I think it also might be like a viable business model. So like, well, again, maybe offline,
I'll tease it to you. But I, so I started playing around with Grok recently. I wasn't playing around
with it. And then I had to like, I guess hosted the Bitcoin veteran space on, on Shitter for like
a week and so like i had the handle and everything and so i was like all right let me try this grok
thing and it was surprisingly good i started talking with like um you know i if you look at
my primal reads or like articles on nostr that doesn't have to be in primal um but i i have some
like conversations with grok where i was like hey you know like let's talk about how all of these
cellular band baseband radio chips are completely locked permissioned and not open source at all
And so like, what, what does that, what does that mean for like the usability of our phones?
Cause there's no reason why this device can't talk to your device directly.
And it was beautiful to see Jack Dorsey finally, like when he bit chatted that, like the, the
ability, like unlocking in people's mind that like, I don't need to talk to some server
over there.
I can talk to like the person down the hall because our radios and our phone are hyper
robust, like incredibly robust.
and there's no reason why they shouldn't just all talk to each other the same thing with like your
your wi-fi router in your home but there's this like misaligned incentive of all the telecom
communications people to like not include that they want you to go through their service because
i mean it comes down to money they want to be able to bill you right like you're using the service
you're doing whatever but that also comes with like the surveillance and the permission nature
of it all where the technology that we're at like our phones are capable of so much more except
they are locked down at the hardware chip level like at the chip level your cell phone radio
will not operate without like some proprietary like it's a completely proprietary it's like
broadcom and qualcomm are these like companies that have it completely locked down if we could
liberate that and i think bit chat is like one illustration of like hey look at this cool thing
you do with your phone where you don't need the internet um like take that even more steps further
like unlock these chips for for use um but yeah we'll see what happens the fcc kind of it's weird
like the way that radio frequency bands work in the united states is you actually lease space so
like a visible spectrum of light right and then like radio frequency and then the fcc has a
controlling mechanism where it's like okay you sell from provider get this one little sliver here
where you can run this service and like all these other things and they like chop it all up and it's
all for deconfliction but we're at a point with technology where our phones like there's radio
waves all around us all the time right like our phones can decipher that and kind of this thing
called beam forming where you can take like multiple antennas and like have a directional
very like projected beam formed antenna setup um to cut through noise interference and all kinds of
other stuff like that all exists and is it's practical to apply uh it's just we don't have
the incentives to do it yet at these massive companies that make these chips and it's hard
because it's a physical thing right you have to manufacture the radio chips in a specific way the
same way these bit axes like the chip in here is still proprietary to bitmain that makes it
we just have really smart guys that reverse engineered the entire thing uh scott 9000 by
way shout out legend um like literally like hooking things up to the pins of the chip to figure out
how it works to like reverse engineer this thing um and and now we have a bit x and we're getting
more so it's it's you know uh i'm always so grateful for open source devs just hacking
just just hacking away it's a beautiful thing but to uh to your point about uh dorsey's bit chat
it's uh carl and i we're you know we're uh we have our own little bit chat um where we
bit chat each other uh but uh you know because we're not uh we're not around a lot of other
people who are using this so we have we have a household bit chat but it it's incredible to see
And to your point as well about like the Wi-Fi side, like, yeah, like Bluetooth is like one way to do this, but obviously like there are, you can do this over Wi-Fi as well.
Like there's no reason that you need to be going through, like going through these providers.
Like you can have peer-to-peer communications with what already exists with the tech that's already right here.
And I think that's just something that's been like kind of hidden almost from people.
Obviously, the whole reason that a lot of these trusted intermediaries are there, or maybe not the reason they're there, but because they are there, they are also tapped on by the government all the time.
And that is a channel through which you can be surveilled.
But when you actually go peer-to-peer and it's encrypted, you can't be.
And that I think is really terrifying to the powers that be not just in the U.S., but like across the world. Like it's a really powerful thing to be able to send messages that, you know, can't be intercepted or if they are intercepted, can't be can't be decrypted.
like that is a that is a beautiful piece of freedom tech and people should have that like
that should be the norm like the norm the norm should be privacy but we've been kind of uh
psyoped into thinking that like you know well why why do you need privacy if you have nothing to
hide which is just the most like such a damaging people that say that ask them if they shit with
the door open yeah oh yeah it's like do you take a dump with the door open exactly go ahead i'll
I'll watch you poop right now.
Go ahead.
What are you scared of?
I usually charge, but we can talk about that offline.
It's amazing, though.
And just, again, where does it go from here?
With a lot of these things, either with direct peer-to-peer communications,
with stuff like with eCash, these very privacy-preserving technologies,
these different layers, we're kind of at the infancy of a lot of these
where it's like they're starting to get out like the message is starting to spread but it's like
it needs to keep spreading a little bit faster because at a certain point you know once you know
the powers that be finally catch on these are the things that they hate right they hate anything
that they cannot control so of course they will try to you know co-op these things shut them down
but like that's the beautiful thing about open source software is it's like go ahead like you
can try but like it's it's just not going to work like the genie is already out of the bottle
and that's like that gives me a lot of hope about the future because it's like even though there are
these problems it's like hey uh we get a little bit of a a little bit of a head start in them and
that may be all we need yeah i mean i think there's like a satoshi quote of you know like
it might not be the solution but it will buy some time in the in the war for freedom and and really
if you look back to like the early cypherpunks and just cryptography in general, like the powers
that cryptography offer the individual. And if you haven't read Crypto Sovereignty by Eric
Kaysen, I definitely recommend it. But the power that cryptography offers the individual.
And cryptography enables not just Bitcoin, right? Bitcoin is just the best money that we found to
use with cryptography. But cryptography underpins everything we do in our digital modern age.
and enabling the average person to use cryptography to protect themselves from people that would wish them harm or, you know, ill will to their way of life is a powerful concept.
And with open source technology and the jet fuel that is Bitcoin, sending all of the idealistic Bitcoiners into the top tier of elite society,
cryptography is only going to accelerate from here.
And open source technology is one of the means that we're going to accelerate it.
Amen to that.
And that's a perfect note to wrap on.
Gary, thank you so much for joining me, man.
Anywhere you want to, anywhere else you want to send people or remind people of a link
your notes and whatnot, people should go check out Bitcoin Veterans.
Where else do you want people to go to?
Yeah.
So dcbitdev.com, if you're interested in a Socratic seminar talking about Bitcoin and
technology.
Virginiafreedom.tech is my website where I sell BitAxes and I sell MeshTastic devices.
that's like my side hustle so it's low volume but like i'm happy to ship you and proliferate
freedom tech uh shenandoah bitcoin.club is like the local meetup so if you're passing uh through
highway 81 we're like one of the last exits in northern actual true northern virginia northern
shenandoah valley um stop off say hi uh but then specifically bitcoinbetterans.org and if you're
interested in that summit in november bitcoinbetterans.org slash summit 2025 um you can
find us on Noster. Bitcoin veterans is on, on, uh, X. I am not on X unless it's like,
there's some technical post on Bitcoin veterans. Then, you know, it's like, Oh, Gary, Gary picked
up, you know, his, the phone with X on it and decided to shit post. Um, but that's it. Thank
you. Thank you for having me, Walker. I'm honored to have met you. And, uh, thank you for having
this conversation. I look forward to, to doing great things with you in the future.
The honor is mine, sir. Looking forward to seeing you again in the flesh, hopefully soon.
Appreciate your time, man. And, uh, yeah, keep, uh, keep building freedom tech.
peace. I'm going to go ahead and cut this now.
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast. Remember to subscribe to
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