1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,760
It's just incredible to see how Bitcoin is the tool that is touching these people's lives.

2
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,040
It's not fiat money.

3
00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:08,280
It's not some credit card.

4
00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,280
It's not, you know, they're not signing up to American Express and suddenly the problems

5
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:13,720
are going away.

6
00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:14,720
It's Bitcoin.

7
00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:23,840
Greetings and salutations, my fellow clubs.

8
00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,640
My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin Podcast.

9
00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:33,360
The Bitcoin Block height is 818-8880 and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.

10
00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:38,000
Today's episode is Bitcoin Talk where I talk with my guest about Bitcoin and many other

11
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:39,600
things as well.

12
00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,880
Today that guest is Joe Nakamoto.

13
00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:46,920
Joe is a journalist and creator who travels the world giving people Bitcoin like a freaking

14
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:52,440
psychopath and sharing stories of the realities of Bitcoin adoption on the ground, the good,

15
00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,160
the bad and the ugly.

16
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:59,400
You can find all Joe's links and accounts in the show notes or by going to BitcoinPodcast.net

17
00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:00,400
slash words.

18
00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,040
I highly recommend you check out and share Joe's videos.

19
00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:08,000
Joe and I always have a good time when we hang out together at conferences and today

20
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:13,840
even though we were separated by a wide ocean, we had some beers, had a great time and ended

21
00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,960
up running for about two hours.

22
00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:20,480
We talked about his path before and leading to Bitcoin, the state of Bitcoin adoption in

23
00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:26,600
various countries, talking about Bitcoin at shitcoin conferences, KYC, AML, Lightning

24
00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,520
wallets and a whole lot more.

25
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,800
Before we get into the show, it's a good time to remind you that Christmas is right

26
00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,800
around the corner and if you're looking for a great gift for friends, family or a little

27
00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:42,280
present for yourself, head to bitbox.swiss slash walker and use the promo code walker

28
00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:47,280
for 5% off the Bitcoin only BitboxO2 hardware wallet.

29
00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,840
The BitboxO2 is perfect for seasoned psychopaths and new coiners alike.

30
00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,040
It's easy as hell to use.

31
00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,160
It's Bitcoin only naturally and it's fully open source so you can see the firmware in

32
00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:02,360
the BitboxO2, check out the Bitbox app code, even x-rays of the hardware and other schematics.

33
00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,440
Just go to their GitHub and verify for yourself.

34
00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,720
You don't have to trust me or help build one for yourself if you feel like it.

35
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:13,600
Or just go to bitbox.swiss slash walker and use that promo code walker.

36
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:19,400
As always, you can watch the Bitcoin podcast on rumble, youtube or x by searching at walker

37
00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:25,240
america or listen on fountain.fm or wherever you get your podcast by searching for the

38
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:26,760
Bitcoin podcast.

39
00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:31,120
If you do listen to the Bitcoin podcast on fountain, consider giving this show a boost

40
00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,520
or creating a clip of something you found interesting.

41
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,040
If you haven't checked out fountain yet, I highly recommend it.

42
00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,800
You can send bitcoin to your favorite podcasters and earn bitcoin just for listening to this

43
00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:41,800
show.

44
00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,320
You can get bitcoin and you're not using fountain and I'm not really sure what the fuck you're

45
00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:45,320
doing.

46
00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:59,520
Alright, without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk with Joe Nakamoto.

47
00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:06,160
I'm gonna run the recording now because you never know what pure gold Joe Nakamoto may

48
00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,400
bring to the table before anything is officially live.

49
00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,920
Man, it's good to see you.

50
00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:17,520
I appreciate you hopping on here right after getting off a plane, probably some trains,

51
00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:18,520
automobiles.

52
00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:19,520
Correct, all of the above.

53
00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:24,080
Yeah, and I was in Bulgaria like six hours ago and that's where I was showing off my

54
00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,400
new Bottev, my new favorite football team.

55
00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,600
Of course, I love Ray Elbentford.

56
00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,280
I was just gonna say, have you informed Peter of your potentially shifting alliances or

57
00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:34,640
how does that work?

58
00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:38,640
If you're outside the country and depending on what league they're in, you can love two

59
00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:39,640
teams equally.

60
00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,280
What's the rule there?

61
00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,640
I think it's definitely a Brexit thing as well because this is a European team and obviously

62
00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:51,240
you know, Bedford being in the UK, that can be my like UK team and then Bottev is my Eastern

63
00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,840
European team because presumably there's gonna be a Western European team coming in too as

64
00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:55,840
well.

65
00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:56,840
Sure.

66
00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:57,840
So, yeah, so I'm literally out of breath.

67
00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,560
I genuinely was running around the house trying to kind of like connect stuff so that I could

68
00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,160
go online on time.

69
00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,040
Man, well, I'm fantastic.

70
00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,040
I'm doing well.

71
00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,640
Is that a beer I see by the way?

72
00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,240
Yeah, this is poured by Sophie moments before she said she might come in and say hi at some

73
00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:17,200
point and if not, she passes on her congratulations and her salutations.

74
00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:23,080
Well salutations from me and from Carla as well to her and of course to yourself.

75
00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:28,000
You know, I was actually, it's only about, it's 1pm here in the US, but I thought if

76
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,480
I know that son of a gun, Joe Nakamoto, he may have a beer.

77
00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,400
So I figured, you know, let me, let me just partake.

78
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,200
I mean, after all, it's practically evening across the pond.

79
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,240
So it would be remiss of me not to share a drink with you.

80
00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:44,240
So cheers.

81
00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:45,240
Cheers mate.

82
00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:46,240
Lovely to see you.

83
00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:47,240
Cheers to you and the new family.

84
00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:48,240
Yes.

85
00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:49,240
Can I click that?

86
00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:50,240
Yeah, we can.

87
00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:51,240
And a break it.

88
00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:57,840
It's a cheap thing from Ali Baba anyway, so it's probably gonna break at some point.

89
00:04:57,840 --> 00:04:58,840
Well, that's all right.

90
00:04:58,840 --> 00:05:03,080
Am I sounding good to you because you sound crystal clear to me?

91
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,080
Oh, fantastic.

92
00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,840
I am, I also lost my like mic stand on like travels here.

93
00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:10,240
So I've tried out an arm.

94
00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:11,240
Check this out.

95
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:12,760
Have you used an arm before?

96
00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,960
I'm using one right now.

97
00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:19,640
Can you, because you know, now that I'm a mind's not super adjustable, it's kind of a,

98
00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:24,320
it's a piece of shit that I got off Amazon for pretty cheap because I can't exactly justify,

99
00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,960
you know, large expenditures for this, this podcast endeavor yet.

100
00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,960
But I was like, I've got one of these little, one of these little like, these little guys

101
00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,240
that came with the mic and that works well, except you've got to like, you've got to lean

102
00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:38,560
in really close to it.

103
00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,280
And then it just, you look like you're kind of like, I've got a really big forehead and

104
00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:43,400
then it just looks awkward.

105
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,400
It's like my face is just full frame there.

106
00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,600
So yeah, trying the whole mic thing.

107
00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:49,600
That's great.

108
00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:50,600
The arm.

109
00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:51,600
Yeah.

110
00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,840
And I've got a big old spot right here, which is front and center.

111
00:05:53,840 --> 00:05:55,320
Is this audio and video?

112
00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:56,840
This is audio and video.

113
00:05:56,840 --> 00:06:01,160
But yeah, if it makes you feel any better, I've got, I've got a big old spot right here

114
00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:02,160
too.

115
00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:03,320
We're twins here.

116
00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:04,720
So there's, there's no judgment.

117
00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,920
We're both still hitting puberty after all.

118
00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:08,920
It's an interesting time in a young man's life.

119
00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,040
Who can blame us?

120
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:12,040
Yeah.

121
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:13,040
Exactly.

122
00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,440
So is this when you put in the comments like jump to minute four to talk about Bitcoin

123
00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,920
content before that time that they're sharing skincare routines and discussing European

124
00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:22,920
time zones?

125
00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:28,920
Honestly, I, I have not, when I go through and do the editing for these things, I pretty

126
00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:30,920
much just like leave it as is.

127
00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:35,120
Like I put all of, you know, the, the guests links, all of my like six guests or so that

128
00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,760
I've had so far, quite a, quite a large arsenal.

129
00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,480
But I haven't done any of the whole like, okay, skip ahead to here when you get to the

130
00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,240
Bitcoin price prediction of one million thing.

131
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:50,080
Cause I honestly find some of that to be just like a little, a little cheap.

132
00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,220
I get that some people don't want to hear the banter of these things.

133
00:06:54,220 --> 00:06:56,720
But for me, it's like the banter is kind of what makes it.

134
00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,240
Like if I wanted to just get a, you know, a couple of like a really quick hit, like

135
00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,560
I'm just going to read Twitter, like I'm listening to a podcast cause I want, I want

136
00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,080
just a little bit more flavor.

137
00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:12,600
And speaking of flavor, that flavor saver on your lip is getting outrageous and I fully

138
00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:13,640
approve of it.

139
00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:14,640
It's quite impressive.

140
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,640
I need to actually trim it.

141
00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:18,920
And that's the, the, the weird part.

142
00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,120
Like the sofa was saying, she started like a week ago being like, you need to get rid

143
00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:23,120
of this thing.

144
00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,840
And I was like, it's only like a week left, you know, and I'm actually trying to getting

145
00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:30,280
a bit, um, not uncomfortable, but it's just, have you ever had to trim a mustache before?

146
00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,680
Have you ever got to that stage?

147
00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:33,680
Thank you, Joe.

148
00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,240
That seems like it was a bit of a knock on my blonde mustache.

149
00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:41,880
But, but yes, I have gotten to that stage, uh, many, many times I cycle through my facial

150
00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:42,880
hair.

151
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,880
So I just go, you know, from bearding it a little bit, but I've got like, you know,

152
00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,520
the movie Joe dirt, uh, you ever seen that?

153
00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,280
It rings about maybe it's an American thing.

154
00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,240
Anyway, he's got this white trash facial hair and it only grows.

155
00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:56,360
You're trying to imagine what it looks like.

156
00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:57,360
It looks like mine.

157
00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,800
Like there's just purely, there's nothing right there and it'll just never grow there.

158
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:05,520
Uh, so I just cycle through different versions of kind of a really white bread facial hair.

159
00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:06,520
And I think it works well.

160
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:11,120
But if I may say by the time the woman in your life is telling you like, or asking you,

161
00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,600
I should say, are you going to cut that?

162
00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,720
That's when you know you're getting to almost mustache perfection.

163
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:18,240
Like it's right after.

164
00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:19,240
Yeah.

165
00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:20,880
That's, that's the, that's the sweet spot.

166
00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,520
Like you, you, this is where you've got to hold out.

167
00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,080
You've got to stand your ground and be like, Walker told me if I let it go just a little

168
00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:28,880
bit longer, it'll be in the sweet spot.

169
00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,280
But the, the woman in your life telling you, uh, maybe you need to cut that.

170
00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,200
That's the signal that it's almost perfection.

171
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,640
And also like the, the curling bit at the end, it all gets a bit weird and a bit, you know,

172
00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:45,480
I had a lot of Bulgarians thinking I was Bulgarian, which is obviously a great sign.

173
00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,200
That is, I mean, now I'm back in Portugal.

174
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:48,440
It's like, Oh, you must be Portuguese.

175
00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,080
It's like, no, I just have facial hair.

176
00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:51,080
Yeah.

177
00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:52,080
Sorry to disappoint.

178
00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,680
Oh man.

179
00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:58,120
So on this trip you were, uh, were you just in Bulgaria or were you, were you pinning

180
00:08:58,120 --> 00:08:59,520
it on to some others?

181
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:00,520
Hmm.

182
00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:01,520
Yeah.

183
00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:07,280
So I went to Sofia, uh, flew in there on Wednesday of last week and actually flew back from there

184
00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:08,280
as well.

185
00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:09,440
Cause Lisbon didn't have direct flights to anywhere else.

186
00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:11,560
I don't know, but I didn't even fly from Lisbon.

187
00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:17,440
I flew last minute from London because I needed to get a last minute visa to Ghana.

188
00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,640
I actually bumped into some of Peter McCormack's film crew in the Ghana premium application

189
00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,320
center, which is quite jokes.

190
00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:25,320
Wow.

191
00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:26,320
Okay.

192
00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:32,040
Um, and, cause I reckon I met, um, one of them Kurt in, I think it was Bedford at some

193
00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:33,200
point.

194
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,080
He's the guy does these like amazing like sweeping shots.

195
00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,720
And then I met his friend as well.

196
00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,680
And yeah, I messaged Pete like maybe an hour afterwards being like, Oh, I bumped into your

197
00:09:41,680 --> 00:09:44,000
pals and he was like, yeah, the rumors were true.

198
00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,440
And I was like, at some point I got doxed in this like Ghana visa application center.

199
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,400
Um, but yes, we were having like a Bitcoin discussion at the back of this, uh, sort of

200
00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:58,560
like very quiet or steer sort of setting being like, Oh, maybe you've seen that thing.

201
00:09:58,560 --> 00:09:59,560
It's happening on Twitter.

202
00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:00,560
It's like, great.

203
00:10:00,560 --> 00:10:01,560
Yeah.

204
00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:02,800
You don't want to say Bitcoin too loud.

205
00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,880
You're like, I don't want to get, have them give me some sort of a weird cavity search

206
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:11,360
because they think all the bitcoins are, you know, inside of me at this moment.

207
00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:12,360
Exactly.

208
00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:13,360
Like not again.

209
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,640
I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm not gonna get in here.

210
00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:17,200
And on top of that, I almost ran out of them.

211
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,680
Like I had a real scare with getting the visa because I've almost filled up a passport,

212
00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:25,920
which sounds like a humble brag, but it's actually really frustrating because certain

213
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,040
countries won't let you in if you don't have enough like creep clean pages.

214
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:33,040
So it's getting to the U S again, which I'm currently like struggling to get into.

215
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,840
I need to get a new passport and I'm going to get one of those ones that was like a Bible

216
00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:37,840
thickness.

217
00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,000
It's like Bitcoin standard thickness.

218
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:40,400
The extra thick ones.

219
00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:41,400
Yeah.

220
00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,160
It's such a ridiculous system.

221
00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,920
Like the idea that, oh, you filled up too many of your open spots on these pieces of

222
00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:48,920
physical paper.

223
00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:54,200
And even though we literally use facial recognition at every border crossing, we still need to

224
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,080
put a stamp in here because for some reason that makes sense.

225
00:10:58,080 --> 00:10:59,840
I truly don't understand it.

226
00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:00,840
Yeah.

227
00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,040
It's a, and I mean, again, then we do this sort of border crossing in Africa or Latin

228
00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,920
America, you know, that they're actually going through and they're counting the days.

229
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,880
And I realized this and so like, obviously you can do visa runs and that sort of thing.

230
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:17,640
And like today I gave the wrong passport to the Bulgarian border patrol person because

231
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,640
I've got like two passports and I tried to keep one clean.

232
00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:21,640
Oh boy.

233
00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:22,640
Yeah.

234
00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:23,640
Stack passports.

235
00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:24,640
Right.

236
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,840
And yeah, he was, he was like, there's no record of you being in this country.

237
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:29,160
And I was like, oh crap.

238
00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:30,160
Was it the other passport?

239
00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:31,160
Shit.

240
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,160
I'm like, yeah, is that it?

241
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,160
Am I like off to the gulag?

242
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,160
That's just, that's game over.

243
00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:38,160
Oh my God.

244
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:39,160
Yeah.

245
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:40,160
I noticed it was all okay.

246
00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,920
He laughed it off and was like, don't worry, this actually happens more than you'd, more

247
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:44,040
than you'd think.

248
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,040
But good thing is got the Garno visa, went to Bulgaria, which is where it was for the

249
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:49,040
past few days.

250
00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:55,160
And I was there investigating this wonderful Mugs football team, which is Botev Plovdiv.

251
00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:56,800
But you know Eastern Europe a little bit, right?

252
00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:58,480
You've got family ties to Romania.

253
00:11:58,480 --> 00:11:59,480
I do.

254
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,600
Well, married into the family ties now.

255
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,920
So I'm an honorary Romanian is what I'm told, which is, which is nice.

256
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:11,120
It really becoming an honorary Romanian just consists of spending enough time in like the

257
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:16,320
Maramuresh area and being hazed by drinking a ton of palinka and Tzvika.

258
00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,240
And yeah, it's, it's a wonderful part of that.

259
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:21,240
Yeah.

260
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:22,840
Well, that's a boy.

261
00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:24,240
That's a whole rabbit hole.

262
00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,040
But it's a wonderful part of the world.

263
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,280
And there's, there's so well, there's history all over the world, right?

264
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,280
Every country has its story.

265
00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,600
But I find Eastern Europe and maybe I'm a bit biased too, because my lovely wife is

266
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,760
hailing from there.

267
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:43,240
But I find their history and really recent history to be so fascinating because there

268
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,920
are just so many lessons to be learned from it.

269
00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:52,640
And the attitudes people have in those countries about communism and different, you know, let's

270
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,360
call them more new age ideas.

271
00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,560
Like they're very, they're very skeptical.

272
00:12:58,560 --> 00:12:59,560
They doubt a lot.

273
00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:03,080
Like they're like, listen, we've seen, we've seen this ship before.

274
00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,000
We've heard this line before.

275
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,320
You're trying to sell me something and you're probably trying to sell me totalitarianism.

276
00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:09,980
I want no part of it.

277
00:13:09,980 --> 00:13:15,280
So I find it interesting too, because I'm not sure about Bulgaria, but at least in Romania,

278
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:22,080
it's still a heavily cash based economy and very little use of credit.

279
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,600
Credit cards are, a lot of people have them, but I think it's something like it's in like

280
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:32,560
upper 90s percent of Romanian, Romanians that primarily transact with either cash or debit

281
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:33,560
cards.

282
00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:39,400
It's just like they just really don't trust banks and credit card companies too much.

283
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,800
I mean, obviously they trust the banks enough to use a debit card, but there's a lot of

284
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,960
just hesitation about that.

285
00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:50,040
I think because they've seen what happens when state controls come in and say, okay,

286
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,400
you know, your money isn't yours or you're not allowed to use foreign currency because

287
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,040
that's, you know, anti party behavior.

288
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,400
And it's, it's fascinating to me.

289
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,600
I love visiting that part of the world though.

290
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:07,320
So definitely echoes of that sort of culture in Bulgaria.

291
00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,640
And I mean, I lived in Serbia for like four months, like five or six years ago and did

292
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:12,640
a project there.

293
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:18,160
And again, it was all cash based, total distrust or mistrust rather of government.

294
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,280
And that really played out during the pandemic.

295
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,520
Because you know, like, you know, when the rules change, like every like two weeks or

296
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,720
whenever just the bank was like, yeah, yeah, okay.

297
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:26,720
Yeah.

298
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:27,720
Now it's two meters.

299
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:28,720
Now it's three meters.

300
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:29,720
Now it's a mask.

301
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:30,720
Now it's this and the other.

302
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,120
And a lot of the Eastern Europeans were like, this is all bollocks.

303
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:34,120
Like we've been here before.

304
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,440
We know exactly what the governments say, whatever the government say, you take it,

305
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,720
you chuck it in the bin and you do the other thing.

306
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:41,720
Yeah.

307
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:42,720
It's kind of wonderful.

308
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,520
It's like, it's like people, you know, in America, there's the, obviously, well, all

309
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:53,120
of the world, there's a big, you know, still a clash between the pro-vax and the anti-vax.

310
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:59,440
And anyone who is even mildly skeptical of any vaccine or of the schedule for applying

311
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,560
those vaccines is automatically this anti-science anti-vaxxer.

312
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,960
But it's like Americans, please go to Eastern Europe for like two minutes and ask somebody

313
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,120
about vaccines.

314
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,720
And they will tell you about how they used to be forced to take that at whatever the

315
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,280
government said with absolutely zero recourse during communism.

316
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:23,240
And so yeah, they are a little bit hesitant now to trust, you know, of rapidly thrown

317
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,000
into the market shot from a company or a government.

318
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:28,560
It's, it's interesting.

319
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,280
I think that doubt serves people well in general.

320
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:40,440
Like my, my extremely Romanian father-in-law, he always says, you know, Walker do be to

321
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,560
ergo, Kodito Kodito ergo sum.

322
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,680
He's got like this very deep, nice Romanian voice.

323
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,080
And it's like, I doubt therefore I think there for him.

324
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:48,080
Oh, that was last year.

325
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:49,080
Yeah.

326
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:50,080
Okay.

327
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:55,320
And it's, it's genuinely such a good sentiment to have.

328
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,760
It's like, I think in people are very doubtful of things that they don't agree with these

329
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:04,880
days, which is good, but it's a good reminder to also be doubtful about messages you do

330
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:05,880
agree with.

331
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,720
Cause oftentimes that's, that's where our blind spot is.

332
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,640
It's this idea that like, Oh, I like what I'm hearing.

333
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,320
So I'm just, I'm not going to apply the same critical thinking to it that I do to a message

334
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,160
from somebody that I don't agree with.

335
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,480
And so it's a, it's a constant reminder to challenge oneself.

336
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:22,640
Yeah.

337
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,160
But you know, so with that, so we can, um, you know, we can, um, we can, um, we can, um,

338
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:29,120
maybe Joe, just for you all put in the thing that says, Oh, if you want to get by Walker

339
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,840
and Joe's banter about Eastern Europe and, and coffee mugs, uh, skip to this, but I probably

340
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:34,840
won't.

341
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:36,560
I'll probably make them sit through all of it.

342
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,000
But I, and I'm still figuring this out.

343
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,280
Joe, I've got to say, you know, I'm figuring out what are the, what's, what's the best

344
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,080
way to do this whole podcast thing?

345
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,520
And do I, do I always intro every guest or do, do I do like the, the cool guy thing where

346
00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,800
you just, you're just talking and it's assumed that you know who the guest is.

347
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,760
And so I'm just kind of go for a little bit of both.

348
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,440
So what I'll do right now is I'll go greetings and salutations.

349
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:03,680
My fellow plebs, my name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast and today's episode

350
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:04,840
is Bitcoin talk.

351
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,980
I'm joined today by a guy who goes around the world talking about Bitcoin.

352
00:17:08,980 --> 00:17:11,480
He frankly won't shut up about it sometimes.

353
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,680
His name is Joe Nakamoto.

354
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:18,600
He is a journalist, a creator, a speaker, a moderator.

355
00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,640
He's also hosting conferences all the time.

356
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,080
Jim and I are often mistaken for the same person backstage.

357
00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:31,160
This is happening far too frequently now, but you'd think that the accent would give

358
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:32,160
it away.

359
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:33,160
Apparently it doesn't.

360
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:39,560
But Joe also has a much, much darker side and it's something he tries to, he tries

361
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:44,160
to hide a little bit and that's that he is an incredibly toxic maximalist.

362
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:45,160
He's also a practical.

363
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:46,160
You should be like a shit coiner.

364
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:47,160
No, no, I wasn't.

365
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,440
You should see this guy's shit coin.

366
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:56,440
No, but Joe, you're a toxic maximalist and you've also been called a bit of a virtue

367
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,560
signaler, I think.

368
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:03,440
And I for one, as an American know that you are a closet imperialist who is intent on

369
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:04,440
bringing the.

370
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:05,440
It's not closet.

371
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:06,440
Yeah.

372
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:07,440
Okay.

373
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:08,440
Well, there we go.

374
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:09,440
Oh boy.

375
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:10,440
Here we go again.

376
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:15,120
But Joe, with that intro, welcome to another fucking Bitcoin podcast.

377
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:16,960
It is great to have you here.

378
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:17,960
Thank you so much, Walker.

379
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,560
What a tremendous introduction.

380
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,840
How many times did we rid me six?

381
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:23,840
That is excellent.

382
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:25,040
There were compliments as well.

383
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,600
It wasn't just ripping back candid, which is the best way to deliver a compliment, of

384
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:34,040
course, but I'm pretty sure you British folk take the imperialist comment as a compliment.

385
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,280
Actually, it's like, yeah, no, the whole world.

386
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:37,280
Yeah, we it was ours.

387
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:38,840
Yeah, that was us.

388
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:40,920
Sun never sets on the British Empire.

389
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:41,920
It sure does not.

390
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:43,920
I just said that on a podcast.

391
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,080
Well, I'm going to get canceled.

392
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,840
I'm going to I'm going to make that into a song.

393
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,040
We're going to put a nice beat behind it and it's just going to be you saying the sun never

394
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:53,680
sets in the British Empire.

395
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:54,680
Beautiful.

396
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,520
But we'll talk to you like Bitcoin or, you know, the sun never sets on the blockchain.

397
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,400
No, no, you said what you said.

398
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:01,680
It's there's no going back now.

399
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,400
No, no, no takebacks.

400
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:08,240
But it's good to have you, Joe, because you and I, we have had some good times together

401
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:09,720
at various conferences.

402
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,040
It's one of those things where we, you know, got to finally meet in person.

403
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,040
When was the first was the first time we met in person?

404
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,520
Was it Lugano last year?

405
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,120
Or was it before that?

406
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:21,520
Yeah, no.

407
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,720
I vivid memories of certain places, but I have an awful memory for this kind of thing.

408
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,800
So I think I'm going to say Lugano as well, because I immediately I went to El Salvador,

409
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,360
but it was no Lugano, wasn't it?

410
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:32,360
Yeah.

411
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:33,360
Well, I was in El Salvador too.

412
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:35,560
It's nice of you to forget that already, but that's fine.

413
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,440
No, that was why I thought we hung out on jam.

414
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,480
But no, there was some jamming involved.

415
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,480
There was a lot of Paco involved as well.

416
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,520
He was all over the place as usual, making sure everyone had a great time.

417
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,240
But you have been around the world.

418
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:58,600
I think you probably travel as much or more than any other Bitcoin or I know in terms

419
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,480
of Bitcoin related travel.

420
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:02,560
And I'd love to.

421
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,960
I know I gave a basically a perfect intro.

422
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,280
There's probably not much to add to your back story.

423
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:14,280
However, I would love to hear kind of who the fuck is Joe Nakamoto?

424
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:19,240
How did he get here today to be this guy who is a traveling journalist and creator and

425
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:25,360
just goes around the world like a freaking psychopath, giving people Bitcoin and trying

426
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:29,640
to teach them about Bitcoin in this incredibly toxic way with the smile on your face and

427
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,040
that mustache?

428
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,200
How did you get to that point?

429
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,360
What was that journey like?

430
00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:40,800
OK, thank you, by the way, again, for these lovely words.

431
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,920
And today I did do some giving out Bitcoin to people in the street in Bulgaria dressed

432
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:46,360
as a giant Bitcoin bee.

433
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:51,280
And it does hark back to a little bit what we're saying about the Eastern European culture,

434
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,040
that there is that distrust of other people.

435
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,480
And so it was quite hard to engage with people.

436
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,800
So I did the whole clipboard thing, which always helps.

437
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,920
If you hold a clipboard, for some reason people just trust you a bit more.

438
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,040
And then I held a magic wand, which was actually bubbles.

439
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:05,440
So I was doing like Bitcoin bubbles.

440
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,920
So toxic of you.

441
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,600
That'll be out sometime soon.

442
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,480
But the why am I here?

443
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:18,160
Well, isn't that Bill Gates quote, I'm going to get this wrong, about when you're doing

444
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,720
your life and it feels like completely like all over the shop.

445
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,240
And then you look back on it and you're like, oh, actually, I'm kind of joining the dots

446
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,920
now and it kind of does make a lot more sense now I'm looking back.

447
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,520
And I had this sort of reflection.

448
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:28,720
I think it was late last week.

449
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,960
I was like, how on earth have I ended up here?

450
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:37,320
Like why am I walking around a football stadium in Eastern Europe dressed as a Bitcoin, waving

451
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,200
a flag, trying to get into the ultra section of the stadium.

452
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:41,600
And it was wonderful like that.

453
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,200
You know, like the Eastern European ultras, it is terrifying.

454
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,840
You know, these people like tops off, chanting, shouting, they've got flares, like sometimes

455
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,240
they're fireworks.

456
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,000
And I was there and like dresses a Bitcoin like, I don't think this is a good idea.

457
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,400
Like, but still, it was it was a it was one of those moments you just think, oh, okay,

458
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,640
yeah, there's been a lot of things that have led up to this point.

459
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,840
And maybe I should share those with you now.

460
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,160
So I mean, I'm professionally trained as a journalist via Oxford business group, which

461
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:09,760
belongs to Bloomberg.

462
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:15,560
So I was with those guys for three years up until and also during the pandemic.

463
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,680
And with this company, I traveled sort of all over the world, and I was dropped off

464
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:24,320
in random places and had to create like reports or economics sort of research that people

465
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,040
could then use to make investments from.

466
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,800
While that was all like sort of, you know, highbrow stuff, what I was actually learning

467
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:37,600
was how to meet people network, connect with people and do sort of on the ground reporting

468
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:38,600
and research.

469
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,600
Like, you know, if you're dropped into the Ivory Coast tomorrow, it seems quite daunting.

470
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,120
But I'm like, that sounds absolutely amazing.

471
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:46,680
Can I please do that?

472
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,640
Because the situations you find yourself in the connections you make and the friends you

473
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,880
make and the friendships that you eventually nurture are like some of the most amazing

474
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,880
ones that I've got, because you're in this sort of exciting environment together.

475
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,880
So yeah, I did that for a few years.

476
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,880
Oh, should I go back a bit more?

477
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:04,960
You can go back as far as you want.

478
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,000
This is open format, man.

479
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,000
There are no rules.

480
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,000
Okay.

481
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,000
Yeah, wow.

482
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,200
I don't know how deep I should go.

483
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,200
Okay.

484
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,080
So I'm one of three siblings, right?

485
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:22,600
My brother, super-duper smart, like Cambridge, like very, very intelligent.

486
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,200
He's now got a job in somewhere that I literally cannot say publicly, which is just brilliant.

487
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,200
Is it MI6?

488
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,200
But no, it's worse.

489
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:31,200
Oh.

490
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:32,200
Yeah.

491
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,200
So it's the CIA then?

492
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,200
Can we even, can I, can Brits even work for the CIA?

493
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,680
Can we like, immemorialist that?

494
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:39,920
Anyone can work for the CIA.

495
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:41,600
That's kind of their whole shtick.

496
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:42,600
Oh, okay.

497
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,520
I must work for the CIA because that was my amazing double bluff there.

498
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:47,520
Yeah.

499
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,320
And if the CIA is listening, Joe totally played it cool.

500
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:52,320
Yeah.

501
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:53,320
Yeah.

502
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:54,320
Guilty.

503
00:23:54,320 --> 00:24:00,040
So the reason why I'm not a spook is because, I mean, a lot of information about me is very

504
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:07,240
public, but yeah, grew up in a rather busy, large household, went to a decent enough university,

505
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,080
did what was expected of me, ended up in London.

506
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,200
I always wanted to learn a few languages because I find that if you can speak to someone in

507
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,760
there, like native tongue, then you have a sort of better connection with them.

508
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,440
And it just opens doors and is just a lot more, yeah, fun.

509
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,600
And then did the grad route, which is kind of what's expected of you in the UK.

510
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,600
You go to London, you get a nice job in the city or a nice enough job, and you do that

511
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,520
until you sort of rise up the corporate ladder.

512
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,560
And yeah, I mean, we're going to call this fiat stuff, aren't we?

513
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,760
And I was there as well.

514
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:45,120
And yeah, after a couple of years in London, I was like, I'm in debt still.

515
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:50,560
I thought I was earning enough to be able to like experience life and do the stuff that

516
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:51,560
I wanted to do.

517
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:56,960
But I could never have, of course, buy a flat.

518
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:02,560
And I saw a job posting that said, travel 11 months of the year, have no fixed place

519
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:07,680
of address, and earn while you work or something like that.

520
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,520
And I was like, this sounds like the most wonderful scam where can I sign up?

521
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,920
And I flew to Madrid the following week for an interview.

522
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:22,280
And the interview was like the apprentice or you call it the John Trump thing.

523
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,280
What do you call it?

524
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:24,280
Yeah, the apprentice.

525
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:25,280
Okay, cool.

526
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,960
I was wondering if it was like Shark Tank that's become like Dragon's Den or like, you know,

527
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,600
they sometimes rebrand them.

528
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:34,640
Or like, you know, like pavements become sidewalks, like that rubbish rebranding.

529
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,640
Oh, what a terrible rebrand.

530
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,400
Sorry, I won't go there.

531
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:46,960
Yeah, I did this apprentice style job interview where every three hours someone was brought

532
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,440
into the CEO and the CEO's office and they were essentially told to go home.

533
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:56,320
And it was 20 young, bright, also really attractive.

534
00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:01,040
Did you just call yourself really attractive just for the record?

535
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,560
Everyone but me was very attractive.

536
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:03,560
Sorry.

537
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:08,600
No, no, I just I was just I was just wondering, I'm actually compiling a whole dossier on

538
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:09,600
you.

539
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:10,600
So this is part of it.

540
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:11,600
Great.

541
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,200
Add to the one that's already in the CIA and MI6 and everywhere else.

542
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,440
And I was actually referring to the women there, the women like very attractive.

543
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,600
And I was kind of like, what is going on with this thing?

544
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,800
And on the final round interview, which on the second day, like eight o'clock in the

545
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,920
evening, we've been going since eight o'clock that morning, we're all like exhausted, nerves

546
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,120
absolutely shattered.

547
00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:37,760
And it was the classic sort of last interview question.

548
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,160
It was me and this girl called Magdalena and the last question was, OK, like we think you're

549
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,680
probably both good enough to do the job that's expected of you.

550
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,520
Now sell me your colleague.

551
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,040
And based on how well you do, we might accept you.

552
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,280
And so that was like the last thing that was it was a great play by them.

553
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:58,280
But it was a test and a taster of what we would experience on that job.

554
00:26:58,280 --> 00:26:59,600
And eventually ended up getting the job.

555
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,960
I sold Magdalena so well that she actually got the job as well.

556
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,520
So they offered it to both of us.

557
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,400
And then the following week, I flew to Serbia.

558
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,480
I actually sort of recently broken up with my ex-girlfriend at the time.

559
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,640
And so I was like really looking for a change.

560
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,920
But I also just liked the idea of seeking out something more and then, yeah, moved to

561
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:22,560
Serbia for three months and then to Portugal for the first time for four months, then to

562
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,560
Poland for two months.

563
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,680
Then I literally lose track of where it was.

564
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:34,480
But in total, it was Tunisia, the Ivory Coast, Morocco, Mexico, Trinidad and Tobago.

565
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,400
And I mentioned the other ones.

566
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,920
And a few other countries, and you'd be living these places three to six months at a time

567
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,720
doing these sort of advertorial projects.

568
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,200
But you were basically doing a journalism story.

569
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,840
And then at the end of it, this very hot sales girl would pitch these people for an advert

570
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,040
to compliment whatever they said in the interview.

571
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:59,160
Now this job thing is called, it's actually like a well-known international scam that's

572
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:00,560
been going for about 50 years.

573
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,040
And it's called the industry, like in quotation marks.

574
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:09,160
And it's like a fascinating sort of job thing.

575
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,680
And there's a couple of French guys that have written books about it.

576
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,120
And these are the sort of people that would like fly into the Congo, pitch like the president

577
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:24,200
there, get a $100,000 advert, never publish the interview, and walk away with the money.

578
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,760
And there are lots of companies like this that did this all over the world.

579
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,200
And they primarily target like the developing world.

580
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,720
So I stayed with these guys for a total of 10 months.

581
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,680
And I was really interested in the journalism thing, but was completely disgusted by the

582
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,640
ethics of this sort of industry thing.

583
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:44,360
It was also fascinating just to learn that this kind of thing still goes on in the present

584
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:45,360
day.

585
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:46,760
Is this company still operating?

586
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:47,760
Oh, yeah.

587
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:48,760
Going strong?

588
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:49,760
Yeah.

589
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,480
And they'll tell you that it's not sponsored journalism.

590
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,040
It's not advertorial.

591
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:59,960
And the reason that they only hire hot, young, often Eastern European girls is because they're

592
00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:03,040
the best commercial value or whatever.

593
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:10,640
But in reality, it's a very twisted sort of thing.

594
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,800
But from that job, there was a reputable company called Oxford Business Group that did very

595
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:20,680
similar work to what this other company did, but with actual decent research and decent

596
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:21,680
analytics.

597
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,600
And that's when I sort of properly became a journalist.

598
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,440
As prior to that, I was essentially going into a meeting room.

599
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:31,000
And for those 45 minutes that I got to talk with a CEO or the Minister of Health or the

600
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:36,160
Minister of Economy or whatever it was in a sort of small developing country, my idea

601
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,680
was to get some information about him that the sales girl could use in the interview.

602
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,200
For example, if I'm talking to you as a CEO of your company does radios and transmitters

603
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,440
and that sort of stuff in Romania, so I'd be like, OK, I saw your sales this year.

604
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,000
What's the market doing?

605
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,800
And you'd be like, hopefully, be honest with me.

606
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,920
And all the while, I'm thinking, OK, his sales are at 25% this year.

607
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,480
That means she's got a green light to sell.

608
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,400
And then I'd talk about massaging your ego a bit.

609
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,680
I'd ask about that lovely artwork behind you.

610
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,320
I'd ask how many people you've added to your team this year.

611
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,360
And I'd say that, oh, by the way, we've got photos with the Minister of Radios or the

612
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,960
Minister of Technology or whatever in Romania.

613
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,600
And he would love to hear more from you.

614
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,960
And you'd pretend set up a fake meeting with them.

615
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,760
And I'd be like massaging your ego, rather, throughout this interview discussion.

616
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,080
And at the end of it, you're on Cloud 9.

617
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:26,720
I've got enough research.

618
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,800
And the sales girl comes in and says, wow, that was incredible, Walker.

619
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,000
Wow, I just love the way you said this, that, and the other.

620
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,720
And oh my god, your sales are up so well.

621
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,520
And I'm just thinking, I just wanted to offer you this really exclusive sort

622
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,840
of opportunity that we only offer to the best clients.

623
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,880
It's an advert to compliment your comments, of course.

624
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,480
And we could put it right here next to the Minister of Health in the report we're

625
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:47,600
putting together.

626
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,920
And that'll be 50,000 euros signed here.

627
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,400
And you walk out of there.

628
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:53,720
And sometimes you publish a report.

629
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:54,600
Sometimes you don't.

630
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,760
And then you disappear on a plane a couple of months later.

631
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:57,640
And this is still happening.

632
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,440
It still happens today in 2023.

633
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:00,400
They will say otherwise.

634
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:01,920
And I'll probably get into trouble saying this.

635
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,640
But I've said it on other podcasts as well.

636
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,800
And they really do not care.

637
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,120
That is what it sounds like.

638
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:12,120
It sounds like a great topic for a somewhat soft true crime documentary.

639
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,960
Because it's like, there's got to be something legal going on there.

640
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,800
But wow, so that's fascinating.

641
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,160
So then you were at this Oxford business group.

642
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,320
You said, yeah.

643
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:25,720
How long were you there?

644
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:32,120
And then when did that transition into kind of the Bitcoin side of reporting?

645
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:37,000
So while the sort of interesting thing for me here relevant to my Bitcoin story

646
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,720
is that because I'd seen so many different countries, so many different ways

647
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,920
in which regimes work, and so many different ways in which fiat money

648
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,600
ultimately fails, I was also slowly being sort of orange-pilled.

649
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,440
Because you've probably seen this through your own network of Bitcoiners.

650
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,040
A lot of them are pretty well-travelled.

651
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,040
And it's because a lot of the time they've seen that, OK,

652
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,000
I'm mega, bloody, privileged on the global scale.

653
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,480
Like, I've got a British passport.

654
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:00,200
I'm white.

655
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,120
I'm male.

656
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,200
I'm quite tall.

657
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,840
And all these things are just mega privileges.

658
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:09,280
And I come with the British pound, which is obviously a shit coin.

659
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,600
But it's a stable shit coin relative to other currencies.

660
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,280
But then when you see how bad the Tunisian dinar is,

661
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:21,160
or you see the fact that a lot of the Frank currencies, the CFA currencies,

662
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,160
and the Higgs of the Euro, but then things are more expensive there,

663
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,520
that month over month than they are in Europe,

664
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,680
it sort of opens your mind a bit to, OK, what is this actual money thing

665
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,760
that I'm using all over the world, but certain people play with better rules

666
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:34,880
than others?

667
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,680
And I was like, this is completely unfair.

668
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,000
There's got to be some truth to this.

669
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,920
And that was sort of my touch points before I properly got orange-pilled,

670
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:50,400
let's say, because I was trading Bitcoin in Trinidad and Tobago in 2019.

671
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,800
It was like a very chill project, it was in the Caribbean.

672
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:59,320
And in the evenings, I'd sit on my balcony and go on Coinbase, not even Coinbase Pro.

673
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:00,240
Oh, wow.

674
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,680
Yeah, I know I was doing spot buys and sells, thinking I was a genius.

675
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,960
And obviously, the price back then was like 3K, 4K, something like that.

676
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,400
Obviously, I should have just bought a load of Bitcoin.

677
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,880
But no, genius me was thinking, yeah, this is how you make money.

678
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:13,880
Yeah, just...

679
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,200
It was a genabout of boredom.

680
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,600
Well, right, you're like, oh, man, I'm definitely seeing the moves before they're

681
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:20,600
happening.

682
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,400
I've got this figured out, yeah.

683
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,320
Yeah, and all the while, you realize that, yeah, the fee you're paying as well

684
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,560
on the likes of a Coinbase and the spread that you're getting on it wasn't great.

685
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,680
And I was doing spot stuff.

686
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,560
But that was me sort of being aware that Bitcoin was a thing.

687
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,720
And I don't know if you remember that run-up in 2019, it was like quite considerable.

688
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,800
And I got like, it was like a taste of what a bull run is like.

689
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,880
So when I lost my job with Oxford Business Group in the start, right at the start of

690
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,280
the pandemic, so I took the last flight out of Tunisia, I would have literally been locked

691
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:53,280
in Tunisia.

692
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,760
And the worst part was, I just secured a flat.

693
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,720
I just bought like two crates of beer, a surfboard, a guitar.

694
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,640
And because I thought, right, well, I've got my flat, this pandemic thing will be blown

695
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:05,920
over in a couple of weeks.

696
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:11,560
So I'll just sit here for two weeks playing guitar, do illegal surf trips in the afternoon

697
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,160
because like on the North Coast of Africa, you can, there's actually some quite good

698
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,320
surf and it'll all be fine.

699
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,160
And then suddenly just things ramped up.

700
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:19,240
Europe closed all its borders.

701
00:34:19,240 --> 00:34:22,560
So to get back to the UK, because that was when I was like, oh, my dad's going to die.

702
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,440
You know, all that like stupid stuff that goes through your head at the start of the

703
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:27,440
pandemic.

704
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,760
And so I flew back via Istanbul and on the plane home, I downloaded it.

705
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,880
There was actually what Bitcoin did, the beginner series.

706
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,320
And like, I actually started to take it more and more seriously.

707
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:43,200
And finally, because, you know, I lost my job, I had the time to take it seriously.

708
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:47,840
But because I'd moved back in my parents that point, which is obviously like an error looking

709
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,040
back because obviously it doesn't affect people that badly at all.

710
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,640
It's just like another illness.

711
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,480
I got a job in a factory.

712
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,920
And so I was putting, I was earning minimum wage, which at the time was eight pounds,

713
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,640
but now it's like 11 pounds in the UK.

714
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,840
Thank you, Mr. Prime Minister.

715
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,240
It's I was allowed to wear headphones.

716
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:13,960
And so this was when I got properly like down the rabbit hole.

717
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,960
Oh my God, this Bitcoin thing is a lot bigger than we think.

718
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,280
And I got the internet of money one and two.

719
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,760
And I think as with a lot of Bitcoiners, it was the Andrea stuff that really hit at home

720
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:25,760
for me.

721
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:31,160
So I heard him on the introduction to Bitcoin podcast by Peter and was like, this Andreas

722
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:32,960
guy, he just talks with such clarity.

723
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,360
He just really seems to get it in a way that I will never be able to get it.

724
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:42,320
I want to try to attain that level of understanding of this, this digital phenomenon.

725
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:48,760
And yeah, so that was when I was like, okay, I need to stop working in this Fiat based model

726
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,880
and work in a Bitcoin based model.

727
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,920
But first I'm going to try to write about Bitcoin for the likes of Oxford, Oxford business

728
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:55,920
group.

729
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,040
So I did.

730
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,280
And I wrote about remittances into Sub-Saharan Africa.

731
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,880
We did a project on Togo and I touched a little bit on like Bitcoin and Fiat monies.

732
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:07,560
And what else did they do?

733
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,000
A lot of them were like really poorly researched and they had to be written in a certain way

734
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,120
because if you're talking about Bitcoin, you'd have to say, but by the way, Bitcoin uses

735
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:17,120
loads of energy.

736
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,720
So you should look at this other green cryptocurrency called Chia or something.

737
00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:26,080
And ultimately all cryptocurrencies are very volatile, most are scammy and do not invest

738
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,320
any money at all.

739
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,800
Not even like what you can't afford to lose, but just literally do not invest.

740
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,080
And so yeah, eventually I obviously grew quite tired of that.

741
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,040
And I was like, I want to do something meaningful in this space.

742
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:42,640
I feel like this is the direction I want my career and basically my life to go in and

743
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,360
end up working at this company called Datradar.

744
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,760
So have you ever heard of them?

745
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,360
I don't think so actually.

746
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:49,360
That's a good thing.

747
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:50,360
Great.

748
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:51,360
Okay.

749
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,400
Because they're a massive shit coin publication.

750
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,360
It's decentralized application radar.

751
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,480
No, I know what that means.

752
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:58,480
I just had to go.

753
00:36:58,480 --> 00:36:59,480
Sorry.

754
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,880
Yeah, that was mega patronizing.

755
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:02,880
It's okay.

756
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:03,880
It's okay.

757
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:05,480
It's fine just because you're British.

758
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,560
You know, it's in your blood.

759
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:08,560
I get it.

760
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:09,560
I know.

761
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:10,560
I know.

762
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:11,560
I know.

763
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,160
But okay, so you got out better than I patronize.

764
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,200
All is forgiven here on this another fucking Bitcoin podcast.

765
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,160
It is again, open season.

766
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:28,560
So Datradar, how long were you there before you were like, it must have been not jiving

767
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:33,600
with what you were also learning at that time where you're like, hold on a sec.

768
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:34,880
This doesn't feel right.

769
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:42,320
I know that a lot of this is just, well, vaporware and you wanted to, I assume, go in

770
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,720
a different direction than that.

771
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:49,320
I mean, I thought during the job interview that I would be able to eventually end up

772
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,120
talking about Bitcoin, writing about Bitcoin, making content about Bitcoin.

773
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:58,520
And I think that I, because I'd had a year of like, effectively working in women wage

774
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:03,960
job and then working like quite a crap job at a sort of local company in Yorkshire, like

775
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:05,600
my confidence and self esteem was quite low.

776
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:11,000
And so I pitched for a job that was perhaps underneath my skills and got there and was

777
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,600
like, okay, this I'm doing like sponsored content for essentially like crypto token

778
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:16,600
projects.

779
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,160
So that was sold destroying in itself.

780
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:23,280
But also I was like, the quality of what people are putting out here, like the research,

781
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,680
the due diligence, all this sort of stuff, which I've been sort of trained with.

782
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,760
I was like, this is absolutely crap like content that we're putting out here.

783
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,720
So that was one sort of side of it.

784
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:37,200
And the other side was that, well, it was actually a moment when we're talking on Slack

785
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,400
to one of my colleagues and he was like, oh, have you finished that piece about X metaverse

786
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:42,400
thing yet?

787
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,120
And I was like, no, it should be done by, you know, tomorrow morning.

788
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,520
And he was like, oh, okay, I thought it would have, but I thought it would have rugged by

789
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:50,520
now.

790
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:51,520
Oh my God.

791
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,080
And I was like, okay, like fuck this, like I am out.

792
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:56,720
And I need to just write about Bitcoin.

793
00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:58,440
I want to put my name to Bitcoin.

794
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:03,640
And yeah, I just don't want to have anything to do with this insipid crypto industry.

795
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,320
It's just rank and it just attracts bad actors.

796
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,840
And even the people that come in with like really good intentions, I think a lot of them

797
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,240
get quite twisted by the nature of that beast.

798
00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:18,480
So that's when I was like, okay, so this, I think that, and also I boosted my confidence

799
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,160
by realizing that there was a lot of crap, the sort of like poorly skilled people, let's

800
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:24,680
say, around me.

801
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,760
I don't want to sound like arrogant, but honestly, I'd, you know, I was a journalist

802
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,360
and I was coming into a role that was like, and I was a senior editor, Oxford business

803
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:37,640
group, and then I entered as a like a sort of junior role, a sort of startup crypto company

804
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,160
that was also launching its own token.

805
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,360
So they were going to eventually pay me in their token and that token launched and it

806
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,600
just tanked and I actually haven't kept up with it.

807
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:51,240
It's yeah, I mean, there's some really nice people there, but ultimately it was just not

808
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:54,000
the world that I want to build towards.

809
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:59,280
And so yeah, I looked at, okay, what is the sort of smorgasbord of Bitcoin and crypto

810
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,920
related journalist jobs out there?

811
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:07,360
Thoughtcoin Telegraph had a good reach and good graphics sent off an application, had

812
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,480
a couple of calls and then started there.

813
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,600
And in the application, I was pretty explicit about the fact that like I wanted to make

814
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,560
Bitcoin my beat.

815
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:19,800
And yeah, to this day, I've, I've written like four pieces of work about genuine crypto

816
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:20,800
projects.

817
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,680
And that was in like the first month of me working there and ever since I've only written

818
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,680
about Bitcoin, I've got a big spreadsheet that tracks what is in the headline and what

819
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,280
is in the body of the article.

820
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,080
And it's like a waiting of like 75% to 25% Bitcoin versus crypto.

821
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:38,680
But when I write about crypto or make content about crypto, I always try to do it with Bitcoin

822
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,960
in mind because I'm obviously a mega biased journalist, but I don't care because fiat journalists

823
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:45,960
are also mega biased.

824
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,040
And that is something, I mean, funny little sidebar.

825
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:54,840
I was at a dinner last week in Lisbon with the editor in chief of the Financial Times,

826
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,840
the banker newspaper.

827
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,960
And I tried to give her some Bitcoin.

828
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,080
And I was like, I don't know if you drink, she doesn't know if you drink, we're chatting

829
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:05,080
around and stuff.

830
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,280
And her eyes are just getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

831
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,440
As I was like, no, no, just send you some Bitcoin, you can send it right back.

832
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,280
You don't have to hold it for any more than one second.

833
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,600
She's like, I literally cannot hold Bitcoin.

834
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,680
And you know, it is against like, it's a conflict of interest.

835
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,880
And I was like, oh, come on, it's just a lightning wallet.

836
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,200
Let me show you with my ring, I'll just send you some sat so you can send it back.

837
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,320
And eventually she's just got up from the table and just left.

838
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:25,320
Oh my God.

839
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:26,320
Yeah.

840
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:27,320
It was absolutely wild.

841
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:32,080
Which is such a ridiculous, like that's what an absurd rule.

842
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,640
Like does she not own any sort of stocks, like no securities event?

843
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,120
Does she own literally nothing but the pound?

844
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:39,120
Or like...

845
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:40,120
No, that's actually true.

846
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:41,640
Yeah, because I was like, wait, so you literally cannot hold anything.

847
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,800
She was like, no, I choose not to hold anything.

848
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,600
And I was like, okay, well, you don't have to hold it.

849
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,240
And I just show you how Bitcoin works because you're here at a crypto event.

850
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:54,840
And so, you know, you're going to have to be expected to understand how crypto works

851
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:55,840
at some point.

852
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,040
Here's how this layer two on Bitcoin works.

853
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,840
And I tried to do it from like an educational like soft angle.

854
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,120
And in the end, I just ended up sort of taking the mic and being like, this is just hilarious.

855
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,720
Like, can I pass you this handkerchief?

856
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:08,120
Like are you going all in on the handkerchief?

857
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:09,120
Right.

858
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:10,120
All in on the chair?

859
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:11,120
Oh my God.

860
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:12,120
I love that clip, by the way.

861
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:13,120
It's so good.

862
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:19,640
But I think that that's such an interesting thing, like on the one hand, I appreciate

863
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,040
this woman's desire to want to stay extremely impartial.

864
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:29,600
Like that's honestly a rare trait or a trait that is getting more rare these days.

865
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:35,080
But on the other hand, it's like with, if you're not even going to use something to

866
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:40,720
try and use it, or to use any of the associated technology, like to even just hold it for

867
00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:41,720
a second.

868
00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:43,280
Like, just hold my phone.

869
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,560
Let me send, you know, I don't know.

870
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:50,640
It seems difficult for anyone to get a true deep understanding of it.

871
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:56,120
I mean, it's like if you, you know, you're reading about fishing all the time, and you've

872
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,000
read lots and lots of books about fishing, and you've, you know, you've watched some

873
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,240
documentaries about fishing, and you've read all the new research reports about fishing,

874
00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:07,520
and you're like, okay, yep, like I know all about fishing.

875
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,560
It's like, yeah, but you still don't know how to fish.

876
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,640
And you've never been on the river, you've never been in the lake, you've never been

877
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,440
in the ocean.

878
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:20,560
You really have this completely kind of academic and sterile point of view of something without

879
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:25,680
ever seeing, okay, how does this actually work for me?

880
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,000
And that's, you know, perhaps you could argue that you can get a pretty good idea of, let's

881
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,560
say, the monetary theory side of it.

882
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,520
You could get a fairly good idea of that.

883
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,760
I mean, if you study a lot of Austrian economics, surely you should be able to have a decent

884
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:43,800
handle on that, but at least for me, I found, you know, the first time I took Bitcoin off

885
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:50,440
an exchange and put it into self custody, it was like, oh, wow, wow, this is like, this

886
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,440
is a really amazing learning opportunity for me.

887
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:58,320
And like something new just clicks where it's like, now, no, this is just me.

888
00:43:58,320 --> 00:43:59,320
Like it's all on me.

889
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,560
I can't, I can't wait to do that personally.

890
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,120
Yeah, yeah, for the first time.

891
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:06,120
Yeah.

892
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,440
No, but I think that that's kind of fascinating.

893
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,280
You mentioned, you see, you were at a crypto conference and I'd love to touch on that a

894
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:18,480
little because I know you have been very vocally at a number of different, you know, crypto

895
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,560
shit coin conferences this year.

896
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,000
I personally think it's a wonderful thing.

897
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:30,440
It gives an opportunity like you are in an audience of people that already is in on quote

898
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,440
crypto.

899
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:40,160
And for some reason got siloed onto the shit coin side without discovering Bitcoin enough

900
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,000
along the way.

901
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,160
But I know that some of you know, or, or at all, which is mind blowing.

902
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,160
Can you, can you talk about some of those experiences?

903
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,560
I watched a couple of the videos from it and some of the people who were like, yeah, Bitcoin,

904
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,280
I'm, yeah, you know, I've like, I've heard of it, but that's about it.

905
00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:00,280
And which just blows my mind like that you can, there are that many people in the crypto

906
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,720
space that really don't even have the faintest idea about Bitcoin.

907
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:05,720
Hmm.

908
00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:07,400
Yeah, it's, it's kind of wild, right?

909
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,200
And I think it's even more than that.

910
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,080
I think that a lot of people in the crypto space don't even know that like they're using

911
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:13,080
crypto.

912
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:19,480
Like if you enter through like some NFT thing, like is that really crypto?

913
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,960
If you're just like an NFT artist, are you even touching, you know, crypto in, in, in

914
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:24,960
a serious way?

915
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:25,960
I'm not sure why.

916
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:31,560
You've, a lot of Bitcoiners have at some point tried to question and work out what

917
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:37,800
money is and a lot of the crypto people and crypto is so all encompassing now, right?

918
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:43,680
You've got everything from some metaverse designer to an NFT artist's shill to someone

919
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,040
that's trying to build some Web three decentralized products.

920
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,440
Oh my God, how many trigger words have I said in the past 10 seconds?

921
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:50,600
Have I just lost the subscribers?

922
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,240
No, no, that's okay.

923
00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:53,240
Bring them on.

924
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:54,240
All the trigger words.

925
00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:57,040
So I always want some, something to be a little bit triggering.

926
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:58,920
Like, okay, that's a good thing.

927
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,800
Keep up the trigger words, like throw in blockchain innovation.

928
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,080
And I don't even, I don't even know.

929
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,440
You've already gone through a lot of them, but yeah.

930
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:08,960
So they come in from that.

931
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,480
That's the thing that their, their entry point is the, is the buzzwords.

932
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:17,160
Like it's the, the buzzword side of things where it's something they put in their Twitter

933
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:26,280
bio that they're into blockchain, web three NFT, decentralized, whatever without a lot

934
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:31,520
of times, like, especially with like the word decentralized, it's a really incorrect word

935
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,560
for a lot of these folks to be using because most of these projects are in fact massively

936
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,680
centralized, which is always just funny.

937
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,640
But so, but continue, please.

938
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:41,640
Yeah.

939
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:46,120
No, just on that note of decentralized, there was one talk at the near conference.

940
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,560
You might have seen the video from there where I was like the toxic maxi going around

941
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,040
the crypto conference.

942
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,200
I've got a five and a half minute video of that.

943
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:58,400
I've just finished editing where I go into a bit more like depth with some of the discussions.

944
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:03,760
But there was a, there was a panel on screen and I was walking past the main stage and

945
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:09,120
one of the slides, sorry, on the screen said, just how decentralized is near?

946
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,880
Like, how can we make near like more decentralized?

947
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:13,600
It was like, it was like, what's that effect?

948
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:19,440
It's like, these jokes just write themselves like, they're like aware it's not decentralized.

949
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,520
They're like, we know we were centralized.

950
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,880
We're trying to become decentralized, but like no system in the world has ever become

951
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,200
more like decentralized from a point of being centralized.

952
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:33,600
Like, like power always centralizes before it then breaks down again.

953
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:38,400
And that's why like the innovation or the invention of Bitcoin is so important because

954
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:44,040
it was decentralized like from the outset and it's only becoming more and more decentralized.

955
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:48,040
And yeah, it was, it was bizarre seeing that.

956
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:52,920
And I took a picture actually and I'll scroll through my photos and find it while I tell

957
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,840
you about how strange it is to be at these crypto conferences.

958
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,120
But I mean, a lot of my colleagues at coin telegraph who I like love dearly, all of them

959
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,240
are really into crypto projects and NFTs stuff.

960
00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:10,600
And they know that I'm this Bitcoin maxi like orange pillar, but they're happy doing their

961
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:11,600
thing.

962
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,720
You know, I think that for a lot of people they will come around to Bitcoin when they

963
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:15,880
finally like need it.

964
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:20,440
And you know, if you are, I don't know, let's say you're a doctor in New York and you're

965
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:26,440
on a 250k salary, then at what point are they going to really need Bitcoin?

966
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,440
Not necessarily as like a like, because they've got enough money, right?

967
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:31,960
They've got they've got a decent enough living.

968
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:33,600
They might be able to afford a house at some point.

969
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,920
So they're not necessarily blinded by their financial privilege, but they're so financially

970
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:41,480
privileged that they don't need Bitcoin as a savings tool or as a, you know, a censorship

971
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,120
resistant technology.

972
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:48,400
And they're not worried about a banker, a bank run or whatever it may be, because they've

973
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:52,000
probably got some connection somewhere, which means they're always going to be okay.

974
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,520
Especially in New York, you know.

975
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:55,520
Yeah, right.

976
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,440
Unless we're talking about like what a lot of Bitcoin is talk about, which is like total

977
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,320
economic collapse, which I really don't want.

978
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:06,080
And that's not a world that I want to work towards and then rebuild from.

979
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:11,320
I know that could be, you know, the beginnings of some perfect utopia, but the cost of that

980
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,200
and the effect of it all, just no, no, thanks.

981
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,400
I think I'd rather it just slowly builds up.

982
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,680
No, I think I'm with you there.

983
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,600
Like I do not want to see total economic collapse.

984
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:29,360
Like I think that's a very bad scenario because a lot of just truly innocent people get really

985
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:30,360
hurt.

986
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,240
And then there are economic collapses, like mortality rate goes up, like people literally

987
00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:40,520
die because either they like on the one end of the extreme cannot feed their families

988
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:45,840
or and cannot get a job or they fall into a deep depression and they commit suicide

989
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:46,880
or something terrible.

990
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:52,160
Like these sorts of collapses genuinely hurt normal people.

991
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,240
And a lot of times the people who are okay before them at the very top are still okay

992
00:49:56,240 --> 00:49:57,240
after them.

993
00:49:57,240 --> 00:50:01,440
It's not this huge cleansing that people want it to be all the time.

994
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,520
What I will say though is that to your point about, you know, just financial privilege

995
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:10,680
and taking some time to get Bitcoin, one article I love is Gladstein's Check Your Financial

996
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:11,680
Privilege.

997
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:12,920
Like it's a, it's a great one.

998
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:17,560
If you want to, you know, reply guy to somebody who is clearly just, you know, not doesn't

999
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:22,280
understand Bitcoin, but is coming from a place of like they have more money than they know

1000
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,960
what to do with and have no need to understand it.

1001
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:26,280
Like it's a really great one.

1002
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:30,480
Cause nobody likes being told that they're privileged and to check it.

1003
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:34,720
It's a, I think it's very triggering, but it's, it's a nice thing.

1004
00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:38,960
I think for Bitcoin's adoption, when we talk about a bottom up adoption, that the people

1005
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:43,040
who are most comfortably financially, not, not all of them, cause there are a lot of

1006
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:48,400
very wealthy, successful people who do get Bitcoin very early and say, Oh wow, this is

1007
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:52,400
the only way I'm going to be able to protect the substantial wealth I've accumulated that

1008
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:57,160
I've worked hard for, that I've built businesses to accumulate, but for a lot of people who

1009
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:02,280
are on the upper side of the, let's say wealth spectrum, they are not going to get it right

1010
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:08,880
away, but that's kind of a good thing because it does give people who have maybe not had

1011
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:14,080
either the best financial resources or the best, maybe they've just had some bad luck.

1012
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,920
Maybe they're hardworking, but you know what, working hard and at a blue collar job doesn't

1013
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:24,600
do what it used to, and it gives those people a chance to at least try and even the playing

1014
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:25,600
field a little bit.

1015
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,600
Again, I think that's a beautiful thing about Bitcoin and it gives people in the developing

1016
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:36,200
world a chance to leapfrog ahead of where the so-called developed world is now because

1017
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:40,920
they're able, and this is why these circular economies popping up around the world are

1018
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:46,080
so wonderful, cause that is helping people, you know, helping people to help themselves

1019
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:53,960
where the state has not, where you know, you know, various relief orgs have not, and it's

1020
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:58,760
giving them a chance to genuinely, again, take a hold of this knowledge and if they

1021
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:04,120
should choose to, get a little bit of a head start on the rest of the world.

1022
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:08,520
Like it's an amazing thing to look at, you know, any of these, these small communities,

1023
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:13,360
I know you've visited quite a lot of them, these, you know, circular economies, and probably

1024
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:18,800
if I had to guess, have some more scheduled for these next few months maybe, maybe in some

1025
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,280
more time, if I had to guess.

1026
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:27,600
But you know, I, well, let's, let's switch gears in a little bit to that because what,

1027
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:32,720
you know, you over this past year, what you've been, you were in Peru, you were in Argentina,

1028
00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:41,240
Cuba, a number of places where there is Bitcoin adoption to various degrees, but maybe it's

1029
00:52:41,240 --> 00:52:46,600
a good opportunity to just kind of talk about some of the realities of adoption on the ground

1030
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:51,080
because when you're in these countries, like you really go out of your way to talk to people

1031
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:56,360
like on the street, random people, it's kind of part of the whole Joe Nakamoto shtick

1032
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,080
and I love it.

1033
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,280
In the video, it makes for some wonderful video content too.

1034
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:07,120
But what's been your experience with people on the ground in some of these countries where

1035
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:15,800
like, let's say, take a place like Cuba, where I know that was a pretty intense experience.

1036
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:21,960
Were there, were there things that were kind of really surprising in a good way and then

1037
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:27,560
really surprising in a not so good way in terms of the state of Bitcoin adoption?

1038
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:33,280
Because a lot of Bitcoiners, especially in the, the again, so-called developed world,

1039
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,480
like to just look around, you know, Bitcoin fixes this, Bitcoin fixes this and Bitcoin

1040
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,760
does fix a lot of things, but it doesn't fix everything and it doesn't fix everything

1041
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:42,280
right away.

1042
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:47,080
So what's been your experience with kind of the realities of Bitcoin adoption on the

1043
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:48,320
ground in these countries?

1044
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:49,560
What's jumped out at you?

1045
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:51,040
What's really stuck with you?

1046
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:54,240
Yeah, great question and lovely lead up as well.

1047
00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:55,240
That was great, man.

1048
00:53:55,240 --> 00:53:56,240
You're a natural.

1049
00:53:56,240 --> 00:54:01,760
Now I'm just always going to think you're fluffing my ego as a part of some advertising

1050
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:02,760
scheme.

1051
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:03,760
I've got, now I've got my eye on you.

1052
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,960
I've got some wonderful sales girl about to edge the room here and pitch you.

1053
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:16,520
Yeah, well, but that aside, I think it's, they've got me all hot and bothered over here.

1054
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,480
Let me show you a photo to help you catch your breath.

1055
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,240
This is the panel that I saw.

1056
00:54:21,240 --> 00:54:23,960
So it says, is near a decentralized protocol?

1057
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:24,960
Dear Lord.

1058
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,120
That joke writes itself.

1059
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:28,560
That was out on the main stage.

1060
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:32,360
The guy's talking it through like, when do we reach an inflection, when near reaches

1061
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,640
an inflection point, what may follow?

1062
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:38,200
So yeah, this is what goes on at crypto conferences.

1063
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:39,640
They need you there.

1064
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:41,960
And they need, honestly, like more Bitcoiners there.

1065
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:47,920
I think it's a good thing for Bitcoiners to go to these conferences and to be just as

1066
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:53,120
toxic as is needed because sometimes a little bit of that toxicity is sometimes it goes

1067
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:54,120
a long way.

1068
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:55,120
Yeah.

1069
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,120
No, I mean, and you mentioned Argentina that I didn't go to Argentina this year, but I

1070
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:03,520
was invited to go to the LaBitConf, which is like the biggest blockchain conference

1071
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,240
in Latin America.

1072
00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:10,240
And I couldn't end up like, it was just really expensive to get there basically.

1073
00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:11,240
And so I didn't go.

1074
00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:13,400
But again, that's a Bitcoin crypto blockchain.

1075
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:14,400
What if you want to call it conference?

1076
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:19,280
But again, you want to have like the likes of Jackomizuko or like, let's get safe on

1077
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:21,920
stage at some like horrible crypto conference.

1078
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:22,920
Wouldn't that be amazing?

1079
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:27,640
Like as long as he's not like too toxic, which obviously we can't guarantee, but wouldn't

1080
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,280
that be amazing if he was as well?

1081
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,800
I would pay to see that show any day.

1082
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:33,800
Yeah.

1083
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,960
But that would hopefully, you'd hope that they would ask the right questions that would

1084
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:41,520
get people's minds ticking in the audience and they'd be like, oh, okay, yeah, maybe

1085
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:44,240
it is more than just like speculative token stuff.

1086
00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:49,160
And maybe there is like some real meaningful change we can do with this coin, which I guess

1087
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,440
segues onto your question there.

1088
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:57,280
And yeah, one of the reasons why I wanted to do on the ground Bitcoin adoption stuff

1089
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:02,720
and genuinely understand if a lot of what we say online, like the Bitcoin fixes this,

1090
00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:09,800
the fact that Bitcoin will affect the global south more than the developed countries around

1091
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:10,800
the world.

1092
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:15,280
I wanted to see and understand for my, well with my own eyes whether or not that was true.

1093
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:21,760
And also it was after a conversation I had with like, you know, Udi Werthheimer, I bet

1094
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,080
he weren't expecting to hear that on this podcast.

1095
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:26,080
So many trigger words.

1096
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:27,080
Yeah, I know, right?

1097
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:32,480
So we had like a back and forth like maybe 18 months ago, two years ago, and I was talking

1098
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,400
about how important Bitcoin is in poorer countries.

1099
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,760
And this is when I was in Senegal, and I was writing to him from Senegal being like, you

1100
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,080
follow shit, mate, there's people using Bitcoin here.

1101
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,080
There's a guy starting a circular economy here.

1102
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:45,080
And he was like, no, it's not.

1103
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,880
And I was like, I wrote about it on Cointelegraph.

1104
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:48,640
He's like, no one, no one reads that crap.

1105
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,280
I was like, okay, whatever, like that's fine.

1106
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,080
I mean, a lot of people do read it.

1107
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:54,080
That's absolutely fine.

1108
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:58,920
And I was like, I need to make these stories more shareable, more visual, I guess, and

1109
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:00,560
more relatable to people.

1110
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:05,280
And so because when I first joined Cointelegraph in like, it's like two and a bit years ago

1111
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:09,400
now, I spent January, February, March of 2021 in Senegal.

1112
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,320
And I was just hanging out surfing, but also tracking the Bitcoin adoption story there.

1113
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:18,080
As a year on from that moment, they hosted one of the first sort of Bitcoin conferences,

1114
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,200
Bitcoin only conferences in West Africa.

1115
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:21,760
They now have a circular economy going there.

1116
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,360
And they're about to host the second year of the conference in, it's actually next

1117
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:30,600
week, I was supposed to go, but I'm going to the Afro Bitcoin Ghana one instead.

1118
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:32,600
But I made a video there last year.

1119
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,400
And one of the reasons why I wanted to make these videos is to show people that, yeah,

1120
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:41,840
there is this Bitcoin fixes this thing going on in poorer countries around the world.

1121
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:43,960
But there's also a lot of issues.

1122
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:45,880
And there's a huge amount of scamming.

1123
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:50,520
And there's a lot of problems with distinguishing between Bitcoin and crypto.

1124
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,840
And all those things that we are aware of and we see online.

1125
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:59,480
But basically, I wanted to also show the likes of the trolls, the UDs and the Danhals and

1126
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:03,560
those sort of people that, yeah, there's actually really meaningful Bitcoin work going on in

1127
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:04,560
the global south.

1128
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:08,360
And I know you won't believe it if I write it on Cointelegraph, but here you go.

1129
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:14,360
Here's some viral content of me, I don't know, getting someone to pay, you know, sending

1130
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:15,920
sats in front of Machu Picchu.

1131
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:20,080
Like we were the first, Paco and I were the first ever tourists to get our entire trip

1132
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,720
paid for at Machu Picchu in Bitcoin.

1133
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:24,360
And now the other tourists that are followed us.

1134
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,000
I mean, that's obviously very much geared towards Westerners.

1135
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:30,360
Unfortunately, a lot of Peruvians have not been to Machu Picchu and probably never will

1136
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:34,600
go as it's a very, like it's a lot poorer Peru than I thought it would be.

1137
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,080
And that's actually a bit of a shock for me.

1138
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:41,760
But you know, these little signs and sort of, I don't know, they're just encouraging,

1139
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:42,760
right?

1140
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:44,560
That a tour guide is like, yeah, hell yeah, I'll accept Bitcoin.

1141
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:45,720
I'm going to tell my friends about it.

1142
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:49,000
And before we knew it, he was like, not orange peeling, but you know, he's just introducing

1143
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:50,960
Bitcoin to his pals.

1144
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:56,320
And we ended up going to like the hot springs actually with this guide in Machu Picchu.

1145
00:58:56,320 --> 00:59:01,480
And it was me, Paco, four of these guides, and they were all like in their fifties had

1146
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:03,120
like stories for days.

1147
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:05,040
We were just having a few beers there.

1148
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:09,920
And obviously ended up being this gigantic sort of mind blowing conversation about Bitcoin.

1149
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,840
And I was walking back to the place where I was staying with Paco.

1150
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,640
I was like, yeah, I think we'd like genuinely orange pill them.

1151
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:18,920
Like, you know, often you talk about Bitcoin someone and it's like a first step.

1152
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:23,800
But sometimes genuinely orange pill someone and it did feel more that way.

1153
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:25,640
But now I'm going to answer your question.

1154
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:26,640
Sorry, Walker.

1155
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:28,040
I love the roundabout.

1156
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,040
I'm all about it.

1157
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:31,240
Yeah, I'm very roundabout.

1158
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:36,680
I've not got the best analytical, progressive way of answering these questions.

1159
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:41,840
So let's go to you mentioned Cuba as a first touch point.

1160
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:48,840
So I was surprised at how incredibly adept, smart and resourceful the Cubans were.

1161
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:52,280
But now in hindsight, it makes total sense because you live in a country which has been

1162
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:57,320
cut off from the West effectively and has been punished by like one of the worst economic

1163
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:59,320
systems ever imagined.

1164
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:04,080
And so, you know, even like I'm actually I wrote an article for Bitcoin magazine, which

1165
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:08,520
will be out in the next edition, where I go into a bit more detail and actually explain

1166
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:12,760
the moment when we got followed by the Cuban spies as I was trying to give out Bitcoin

1167
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:14,960
to people in a marketplace there.

1168
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:23,240
But I use an example of a fan that we found in Katria's house, which is it has an American

1169
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:24,240
base.

1170
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:27,400
So it's like pre 1960s like base to the fan.

1171
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:29,440
The rotary blades are Russian.

1172
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:31,720
The power cord is Chinese.

1173
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:33,720
And obviously it's like twice my age.

1174
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:37,360
And I was like, and it was like just blowing.

1175
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:41,680
It was like someone's just going, but on you in the corner, it was doing nothing.

1176
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:47,160
So that's the best fan they have, and it's the result of, you know, 60 years of toil

1177
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:52,880
and, you know, macroeconomic issues and wars and, you know, missile crises or all this

1178
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:53,880
sort of stuff.

1179
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:57,200
And that's the sort of level of Cuban resilience that you're working with there.

1180
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:01,120
They're able to repair like the crappiest little electric fan out of all these little

1181
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:02,560
bits and pieces.

1182
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:04,480
And they're running nodes in this way.

1183
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:09,440
And they are trying to promote self self custody solutions on lightning, which obviously with

1184
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:13,360
Phoenix right now is actually quite tricky because Cubans are just so much less than

1185
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:15,360
Americans.

1186
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:20,840
So there's a really hardcore niche of excellent Bitcoin educators, Forte, Catria, Vitalion,

1187
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:25,600
the guys actually that feature in the documentary, as well as some who are like not docs at all

1188
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:26,800
and not public.

1189
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,040
And this is another point of why it's actually really hard to make Bitcoin content all of

1190
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:35,520
the time, because a lot of the stories you simply cannot share or you simply cannot not

1191
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:36,520
share that they're docs.

1192
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:39,640
But you know, a lot of people just don't want to talk to you publicly about the fact that

1193
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:44,160
they've been in Bitcoin since 2010, because it could be an attack factor or it may be.

1194
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:48,000
And so that's also something I learned quite early on when reporting on Bitcoin stuff.

1195
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:51,880
I was like, oh, crap, there is there are so many amazing Bitcoin stories out there, but

1196
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,360
I can't I can't talk about them.

1197
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:58,560
It's just the nature of it being such a revolutionary technology.

1198
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:01,960
Maybe these stories will come out in 50 years time.

1199
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,600
But that was the story with some of the Cubans.

1200
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:09,000
I mean, I don't think Vitalion will mind me showing that he he said he works with the

1201
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:14,880
Cuban government and he in 2014, he read the Bitcoin white paper before Cubans had the

1202
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:16,520
Internet because the government had the Internet.

1203
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:17,760
Wow, regular Cubans did.

1204
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:18,760
Yeah.

1205
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:21,000
And he was like, oh, shit, like this is this is amazing.

1206
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:22,680
And so he started learning about Bitcoin back then.

1207
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:28,360
He's one of the earliest sort of bit Cuban Bitcoin is to get involved with it.

1208
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:31,200
And I was gonna say, but he was also like, I work at the government.

1209
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:35,320
I understand that this could be like a destabilizing currency.

1210
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:38,360
It could be the thing that sparks that revolution.

1211
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:43,400
And yeah, that for me as well was like a real awakening of holy crap.

1212
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:44,800
This is so much bigger than that.

1213
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:49,920
It's like, what happens if we do topple one of the last communist states because of, you

1214
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:52,160
know, this this decentralized technology?

1215
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:53,560
Wouldn't that be like the most amazing thing?

1216
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,080
But also that's absolutely terrifying.

1217
01:02:56,080 --> 01:03:00,480
Like we like we as bitcoins were part of that movement.

1218
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,200
You know, we're seeing it in lots of other places around the world to some extent, like

1219
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:07,640
with El Salvador and the way in which that's spurring of economic progression.

1220
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:10,840
But these would be also sort of historic feats.

1221
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:13,080
You know, I don't want to get like megalomaniacal.

1222
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:15,360
I mean, a lot of Bitcoin is our right.

1223
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:23,200
But it really did hit home just how important, you know, having state free money is, you

1224
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:25,760
know, in the most overbearing state place.

1225
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:26,760
I don't know.

1226
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:28,960
Do you want to do you want to fly around the world a bit more?

1227
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:29,960
I'd love to.

1228
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:39,840
I just wanted to touch on that for a second because I think it's like it's so it's so easy

1229
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:45,280
for us a lot of times to get caught up in some of the top down narratives that come around

1230
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:50,480
about Bitcoin like right now, the ETF, which of course, when when all these spot Bitcoin

1231
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:54,160
ETFs eventually get approved, that is a huge milestone.

1232
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:56,120
Undoubtedly so.

1233
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:58,480
Not denying that whatsoever.

1234
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:04,040
But actually, a BTC sessions said something when he was on here with me that really stuck

1235
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:08,120
with me that I thought was beautiful, because I was just asking him about top down versus

1236
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:10,160
bottom up adoption.

1237
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:15,000
And he said, you know, Walker, if if top down was all that mattered, top down would have

1238
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:18,880
already given us Bitcoin, but Bitcoin is bottom up.

1239
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:21,040
We, you know, it was it was just such a brilliant thing.

1240
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:23,120
Like, oh, very true.

1241
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:28,760
And he's like, you know, it's top down pumps bags, but bottom up changes the world.

1242
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:32,040
And I thought that was such a beautiful sentiment.

1243
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:36,520
And as easy as it is to get caught in the, you know, the number go up narrative that

1244
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:43,720
is going to naturally come to be, I think it's so important to focus on these, what

1245
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:48,120
some people who shall remain nameless might call virtue signaling type stories.

1246
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:51,880
But I think these stories are so important because it starts with one story and it starts

1247
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:55,440
with one person or a small group of people.

1248
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:59,800
But that's how that's how every bottom up movement necessarily starts.

1249
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:03,040
You know, it has to start with one and then two and then spread out from there.

1250
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:08,040
It's the network effective bottom up movements that has so much power to change the world

1251
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:13,480
that has toppled dictators that has, you know, brought about revolutions.

1252
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:14,720
That's a beautiful thing.

1253
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:20,400
And it's, it's something that people should really try to seek out stories about, I think

1254
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:23,760
and I'm glad that that you are out there telling those stories.

1255
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:25,560
So and with that, let's go to another one.

1256
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:27,240
Let's go around the world a little bit.

1257
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:31,240
How else was the was the experience in in Peru?

1258
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:32,240
How did you find it?

1259
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:37,120
I know there's a is it is a motif in is that in that's in Peru, right?

1260
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:38,120
Yeah, yeah.

1261
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:46,480
So they are similar thing to Bitcoin Beach, Naxonte, but with motive, the project is incredibly

1262
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:47,480
ambitious.

1263
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:54,040
And we're going to try to see if these Bitcoin circular economies can be started in the most

1264
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:57,360
sort of extremely different terrains and extreme terrains anyway.

1265
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:01,080
So there's a couple of projects in the jungle in like the high Amazon, like in a kiddos

1266
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:02,080
is called.

1267
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:03,680
It's like where like the best ayahuasca is.

1268
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,640
There's also one in the lower Amazon place called Juan Guerra.

1269
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:11,840
So we went there and that's actually where a couple of Bitcoin is are.

1270
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:13,280
Don't know if I should say who they are or not.

1271
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:15,520
So I'm not going to say them.

1272
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:20,640
And and then there's a like four or five in the outskirts of Lima.

1273
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:23,240
And I don't know if you've been to Lima before Peru in general.

1274
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:24,240
I have not.

1275
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:25,240
No.

1276
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:28,200
OK, like Lima is like the most disgusting city is awful.

1277
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:31,760
Like Peru is absolutely beautiful, stunning.

1278
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:37,400
But like Lima, I mean Lima is famous for selling bird shit to give you a sense of like why

1279
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:39,440
the city became this big trading hub.

1280
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:40,680
And it's always like gray there.

1281
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:42,320
Like it's like a beautiful coastline.

1282
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,520
And then the city just there's always like gray clouds just sitting on top of it.

1283
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:48,840
I'm really sorry to Chica May for chasing on his favorite city if he's listening to

1284
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:50,080
this podcast at some point.

1285
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:51,080
I love you, brother.

1286
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:52,920
Thank you for having us.

1287
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:55,880
And then there's like four or five in the Andes.

1288
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:59,960
And then there's a couple more in like the sort of beachy areas of Peru.

1289
01:06:59,960 --> 01:07:03,440
So if you compare that to Alzante, which is just one beach region in El Salvador, this

1290
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,880
project is just insane.

1291
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:11,520
And the NGO called Motive was trying to sort of stimulate or not stimulate, but sort of

1292
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:15,880
end people's dependencies on bad things in their lives.

1293
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:20,040
So there's a lot of like drug use or those like domestic violence or there was, you

1294
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:24,920
know, inability to hold down a job in a lot of these communities in a small towns, let's

1295
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:25,920
say.

1296
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:28,520
And so they were trying to work out solutions to stop this.

1297
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:30,960
And the classic thing to do is come in with a bit of money and teach some people some

1298
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:32,080
skills.

1299
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:34,720
And this is what they're doing in sort of 2018, 2019, 2020.

1300
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:37,520
And then pandemic happened, things got really, really bad.

1301
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:42,560
And then they got connected with this Bitcoiner who was like, okay, how can we sort of, how

1302
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:43,560
can we help?

1303
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:47,280
And would you be able to like, if I give you a load of Bitcoin, would you be able to sort

1304
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:49,800
of work out if that's a useful tool?

1305
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:55,120
And of course Motive, the NGO were like, what the fuck is Bitcoin?

1306
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:57,720
And there was a lot of like, sort of understanding how it works.

1307
01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:01,080
And there's a lot of testing different wallets to understand, okay, how can we even send

1308
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:02,080
these funds around?

1309
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:03,600
And how can we sort of build from there?

1310
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:06,400
And so I went there this, it was September.

1311
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:08,160
A couple of months ago, so 2023.

1312
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:11,760
So by this point, they've been using Bitcoin, they've got a system in place.

1313
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:16,280
And it was really interesting to speak with the likes of Valley, who like, wasn't necessarily

1314
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:18,000
a Bitcoin a couple of years ago.

1315
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:21,120
And now he's like, Bitcoin evangelist extraordinaire.

1316
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:25,080
He's like, he will orange pill literally anyone he'll orange pill your dog.

1317
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:29,960
He's just, he's seen how big, how useful Bitcoin is in a like an NGO context and how

1318
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:32,520
it's changing lives and stopping these dependencies.

1319
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:38,000
Because suddenly women are able to take custody of their money and it can't be stolen from

1320
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:39,200
them and it can't be used against them.

1321
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:42,400
And, you know, men are able to earn some money and it's not stolen from them on the

1322
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:47,080
way back from work or, you know, they can't spend all in the bar on the way home.

1323
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:51,480
These are really, really underprivileged sort of towns.

1324
01:08:51,480 --> 01:08:55,040
And all the sort of secondary and sort of tertiary consequences because of them using

1325
01:08:55,040 --> 01:09:00,080
Bitcoin as a tool rather than cash as a tool in these sort of young towns has made Valley,

1326
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:04,040
who is also just like the most wonderful soul, just really believe that Bitcoin is this like

1327
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:06,440
fantastic tool.

1328
01:09:06,440 --> 01:09:09,160
Valley works with Rich, who's American based in California.

1329
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:13,240
And he's an ex-LAPD, also like went into business and stuff.

1330
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:18,040
And he's taken that experience as sort of managerial stuff to sort of work out how they

1331
01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:20,640
can connect up this operation.

1332
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:21,840
And they're both Christians.

1333
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:24,560
There's a similar to Bitcoin Beach now at El Salvador.

1334
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:27,320
There's a big sort of religious sort of element to what they're doing.

1335
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:32,080
But that chimes in well with Peruvian culture because Peru is very, very Catholic.

1336
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:36,960
So the idea is that you can use this Bitcoin tool to not just earn money and spend and

1337
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:42,600
save but also like learn a skill to then become more autonomous, more sovereign basically.

1338
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:46,680
So a lot of what they do already chimed in with the Bitcoin ethos.

1339
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:47,880
And now they're doing it with Bitcoin on top.

1340
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:49,720
They're sort of learning these surprising things.

1341
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:56,400
And like so when I was going there, by the sixth or seventh town we visited, I was asking

1342
01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:58,120
people if they're paid actors.

1343
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:02,760
I was like, there's no way that you're this a debt.

1344
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,920
You know when you send Bitcoin the first time, like over lightning or whatever, there's

1345
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:07,120
like a little bit of stuttering.

1346
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:09,080
And you're like, oh, I scan that, do I?

1347
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:11,000
And then, oh, the QR code didn't load correctly or whatever.

1348
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:12,880
It's not like mega seamless yet.

1349
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:15,520
And obviously, devs know this.

1350
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:18,920
And we know that obviously in darker, sorry, in brighter countries, the QR codes don't

1351
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:20,480
work as well.

1352
01:10:20,480 --> 01:10:26,080
In Lima, in a couple of thorns, in Carabaillo, which I'm finishing a video on about at the

1353
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:28,360
moment, I was like scanning in Carabaillo.

1354
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:29,640
Oh, no, no, come over here.

1355
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:30,640
I was like, what?

1356
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:34,320
They're like, oh, no, we've got like a shadowy bit of the shop where we always scan in when

1357
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:35,720
it's like two o'clock in the afternoon.

1358
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:40,440
And I was like, OK, that is like absolute like 100% sign that they're using Bitcoin

1359
01:10:40,440 --> 01:10:45,520
literally every day because they know that lightning's limitations on crappy old phones

1360
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:49,520
at two o'clock sun in the two o'clock sun is that you have to go into this shadowy corner

1361
01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:52,320
of the shop to make the lightning transaction.

1362
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:53,320
So those levels.

1363
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:54,320
That's beautiful.

1364
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:55,840
Yeah, like little bits of evidence like that.

1365
01:10:55,840 --> 01:11:00,000
OK, these guys are seriously using Bitcoin every day.

1366
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:02,840
And yeah, of course, it's virtually signaling to say that people are using Bitcoin as a

1367
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:05,680
means of payment, and that doesn't drive adoption.

1368
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:10,760
But it's also the most amazing thing to speak to these women who, you know, you asked them

1369
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:12,360
what they were doing a couple of years ago.

1370
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:13,760
They're like, I was sat at home.

1371
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:15,000
I was doing, you know, naffle.

1372
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:17,960
I was waiting for my husband to come home and beat me.

1373
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:20,080
And now I'm learning how to sew.

1374
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:21,480
I'm adding this Bitcoin stuff.

1375
01:11:21,480 --> 01:11:23,080
I'm selling you a t-shirt.

1376
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:24,320
I'm painting this mug.

1377
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:25,680
And with that, I'm selling it.

1378
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:27,960
OK, this sounds like really primitive stuff.

1379
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:32,520
And when I tell these stories, I always worry that I end up sounding like some stupid condescending

1380
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:36,400
white savior walking and being like, oh, look, we're going to change your lives.

1381
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:38,600
But it genuinely is changing lives.

1382
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:42,640
And I really hope that the video or the videos that I'm putting together really highlight

1383
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:47,440
that and show that, like, personally, I went on a real emotional journey while I was there

1384
01:11:47,440 --> 01:11:49,200
because I arrived and I was a bit skeptical.

1385
01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:50,920
I was a bit like, OK, what's going on here?

1386
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:52,120
Then he speaks to the people.

1387
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:53,360
And you're like, oh, my fuck.

1388
01:11:53,360 --> 01:12:00,600
This is like one of the guys I interviewed him and his wife died during childbirth.

1389
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:08,680
He just started a business as a cobbler, like selling shoes for the NGO, actually.

1390
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:09,600
Pandemic starts.

1391
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:10,760
He just loses his wife.

1392
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:14,840
And yeah, he's just like, I don't know what that's not rock bottom.

1393
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:18,200
That's like underground rock bottom.

1394
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:20,200
It was just awful story.

1395
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:23,760
And then he explained explaining that and then I started connecting with the people

1396
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:26,200
through this Bitcoin thing, started selling shoes for Bitcoin.

1397
01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:29,760
The charity came through and like taking a big order from me in Bitcoin.

1398
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:31,600
And now I've realized I've got this sort of hope in my life.

1399
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:35,360
And then on top of that, he was accepting Bitcoin in like June 2020.

1400
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:37,800
So the Bitcoin is accepted and the money is put away.

1401
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:42,120
It's like gone up in value because, you know, if you DCA with like regular orders,

1402
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:44,360
obviously you see that massive run up and the rundown.

1403
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:50,440
But we know that over time that levels out to be like quite a nice tidy, tidy summer saving.

1404
01:12:50,440 --> 01:12:51,920
But I finished the interview.

1405
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:55,880
I'm not at all giving the interview and his work credit right now.

1406
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:57,000
But I just started crying.

1407
01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:57,880
I rang up Sophie.

1408
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:00,000
It was like, oh, it's so much.

1409
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:01,920
This is like awful stuff.

1410
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:08,200
And it was just, yeah, it's just incredible to see how Bitcoin is the tool that is touching

1411
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:09,720
these people's lives.

1412
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:11,040
It's not Fiat money.

1413
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:12,320
It's not some credit card.

1414
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:16,360
It's not, you know, they're not signing up to American Express and suddenly the problems

1415
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:17,840
are going away.

1416
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:18,840
It's Bitcoin.

1417
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:23,520
And I'm like, as good skeptics like we are, I'm trying to work out, OK, surely there's

1418
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:24,640
something else they could use.

1419
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:25,840
Maybe they could use a stablecoin.

1420
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:30,880
You know, maybe they could use, you know, Tether on Tron or whatever it might be.

1421
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:37,160
But I still end up arriving at a conclusion that for the likes of these NGOs, for charities,

1422
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:41,040
for anyone that's in the aid sector, why aren't you using Bitcoin?

1423
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:45,320
That's kind of like the ultimate conclusion I'm arriving at through evaluating all this

1424
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:48,320
content and the documentary stuff.

1425
01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:51,520
And then on top of that, it's, and why aren't you using Bitcoin?

1426
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:54,560
Because if it touches their lives, it can touch your lives.

1427
01:13:54,560 --> 01:14:01,720
I think that the NGO angle is such a really just common sense one, because if we think

1428
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:10,000
about just there is so much money funneled through NGOs, and we know that oftentimes,

1429
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:15,600
this is not the case for every NGO, but for many, that money is misappropriated.

1430
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:20,960
It a very small percentage makes it to the people it's actually supposed to go to.

1431
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:25,640
And it's ultimately, again, not for everyone, but for many of them, it's a it's a very

1432
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:31,040
ineffective way of delivering aid and assistance and help to people, even if somebody's going

1433
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:34,520
in there with the best intentions.

1434
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:41,000
The fiat rails really make it easy to obfuscate where a lot of those funds may be going and

1435
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:42,760
to fudge some numbers.

1436
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:47,680
And the beauty of Bitcoin being this transparent ledger is it's like, you can send, if you're

1437
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:52,960
donating money to this NGO, you can track where those sats are going throughout that

1438
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:56,440
whole process, you can see where it ends up.

1439
01:14:56,440 --> 01:15:01,080
And granted, if they're using some privacy preserving, mixing tools, which maybe the

1440
01:15:01,080 --> 01:15:05,080
US wants to get rid of, maybe you can you could obfuscate that a little bit.

1441
01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:10,200
But if an NGO wants to be fully transparent, Bitcoin gives them a way to do that in a very

1442
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:15,160
public manner, that is just going to increase the trust in that organization as somebody

1443
01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:20,640
who goes out and does good and does, you know, good by its people that it's actually trying

1444
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:21,760
to help.

1445
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:27,640
And the fact that along the way, you're you're introducing this concept of sound money and

1446
01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:33,680
actually being able to save because if you did this with fiat rails, and I thought a lot

1447
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:39,920
and read a lot and heard a lot about the experiences with stablecoins in various countries.

1448
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:45,160
And there are many, many places where people do want dollars and they want a dollar denominated

1449
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:46,400
stablecoin.

1450
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:50,520
And that's great because I think people should have the freedom to choose whatever money

1451
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:53,080
is best for them.

1452
01:15:53,080 --> 01:16:02,200
I also think it's great that in that motive is using Bitcoin specifically and giving people

1453
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:06,800
a way to save in the hardest form of money.

1454
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:14,040
Because ultimately, like a US dollar stablecoin is going to be more, you know, from from day

1455
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:15,040
from day to day.

1456
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:19,600
Yes, we know that it's going to be, well, more more stable because the dollar is still

1457
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:22,080
the prettiest horse at the glue factory, right?

1458
01:16:22,080 --> 01:16:24,120
It's still the World Reserve currency for now.

1459
01:16:24,120 --> 01:16:25,120
I've not heard that before.

1460
01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:26,120
That's amazing.

1461
01:16:26,120 --> 01:16:30,040
I stole that one from Greg Foss, I believe.

1462
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:34,080
It sounds much better coming from him and his Canadian accent, but I thought it was

1463
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:35,080
beautiful.

1464
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:37,440
And it's so true.

1465
01:16:37,440 --> 01:16:42,040
It's like, yeah, the dollar is the worst except for all the rest.

1466
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:46,560
It is still as far as fiat goes, it's the best one out there.

1467
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:52,400
And for people who are looking to save from just the value of that purchasing power, denominated

1468
01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:55,240
in dollars from day to day, I get it.

1469
01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:56,240
Use what you want.

1470
01:16:56,240 --> 01:16:58,320
Use what works best for you.

1471
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:02,720
But for people who are trying to at least put a little bit aside to save up over a slightly

1472
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:08,720
longer time horizon so that a couple of years down the road, or even a decade or more down

1473
01:17:08,720 --> 01:17:15,040
the road, they're able to say, okay, wow, I have increased my purchasing power exponentially

1474
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:18,680
relative to whether I would have saved this in cash.

1475
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:19,960
I think that that's a beautiful thing.

1476
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:26,120
I think a lot of the stuff that Galoy is doing with stable sats is really interesting as

1477
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:27,120
well.

1478
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:32,600
And I don't understand full disclosure, a lot of how that back end works with executing

1479
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:35,320
various swabs and all of that.

1480
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:40,400
But I think that that's a great thing to be able to try.

1481
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:45,240
But it's really nice to hear these stories and looking forward to those videos as well,

1482
01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:51,400
because I know for me, I mean, these are the videos that get me really excited about the

1483
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:59,600
future when you see people who have been in really awful and hopeless positions be able

1484
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:02,160
to be lifted up out of those.

1485
01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:08,120
And it's made possible because of Bitcoin, but they're lifting themselves up out of it

1486
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:09,520
and people are helping them.

1487
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:12,240
It still comes down to people, right?

1488
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:17,280
Bitcoin just gives us this base layer of trust that maybe allows us to have a little bit

1489
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:20,040
more trust in the people that are trying to help us.

1490
01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:25,320
And also happens to, as you said, lightning certainly isn't perfect.

1491
01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:27,640
There's plenty of issues there.

1492
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:33,680
If you want to do it in a self custodial way, that is a little bit more difficult, absolutely.

1493
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:39,080
And also your point about in Cuba, where the amount of money, I'm assuming you're referencing

1494
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:43,760
opening a channel, for example, is price prohibitive.

1495
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:47,520
So that's a difficult situation.

1496
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:51,000
But we're still getting better, right?

1497
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:58,280
I mean, the Internet 15 years on was not perfect.

1498
01:18:58,280 --> 01:19:06,280
And Bitcoin, when you're trying to, I think, redefine what good money is, also what a good

1499
01:19:06,280 --> 01:19:09,840
monetary network is in a way that's never before been done.

1500
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:12,760
Of course, it's going to be a bit of a rocky road.

1501
01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:18,280
And, but these people who are experimenting in these circular communities, I think that

1502
01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:23,040
that's such a powerful part of this entire movement.

1503
01:19:23,040 --> 01:19:28,160
Because that's again, those are, those are proving grounds and testing grounds for does

1504
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:29,160
this actually work?

1505
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:30,560
And does it work at a small scale?

1506
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:35,000
And I know at least for myself, and I think probably for you and for a lot of Bitcoiners

1507
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:42,600
I've talked to, the idea of getting back to a more of a decentralized localism movement

1508
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:44,760
is really attractive.

1509
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:49,320
That things should, you know, you don't need to be in a 10 million population, 15 minute

1510
01:19:49,320 --> 01:19:50,320
city.

1511
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:51,880
Like that's not the future that people are looking for.

1512
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:57,040
You're looking for things that are more local, smaller, spread out with more accountability

1513
01:19:57,040 --> 01:19:58,040
in that local ecosystem.

1514
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:01,480
So I think that that's a, that's a beautiful thing.

1515
01:20:01,480 --> 01:20:07,200
One thing I wanted to leapfrog over to a little bit just about custodial versus non-custodial

1516
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:13,960
is I know for, for you, for me as well, like when I'm was helping people set up, you know,

1517
01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:19,920
lightning wallets in various places, oftentimes the easiest solution to show them was wallet

1518
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:25,880
of Satoshi, which we have now seen is shutting down its US operations.

1519
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:31,880
It is, you know, unfortunately the US regulatory environment is not super friendly to people

1520
01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:34,720
who may be deemed as money transmitters.

1521
01:20:34,720 --> 01:20:39,560
I'm curious just kind of what's your take on that as somebody who's obviously shown

1522
01:20:39,560 --> 01:20:44,560
people a lot of different wallets, shown people of a lot of different skill levels and technological

1523
01:20:44,560 --> 01:20:49,320
proficiencies, a lot of different wallets, and also, you know, what's going to be obviously

1524
01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:56,000
this affects US people, but is what is your kind of go to for when you're, you know, man

1525
01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:57,560
on the street?

1526
01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:00,320
Are you using wallets of Satoshi or using Phoenix?

1527
01:21:00,320 --> 01:21:01,760
Are you using something else?

1528
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:06,480
You know, I mean, what's, what do you recommend for other people who want to go out there?

1529
01:21:06,480 --> 01:21:09,560
Maybe it's friends, maybe it's family, maybe they want to take after Joe Nakamoto and do

1530
01:21:09,560 --> 01:21:11,040
some man on the street too.

1531
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:12,040
Okay, Fred.

1532
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:16,560
What do you, what do you recommend, what do you recommend for the, you know, your ideal

1533
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:17,560
wallet?

1534
01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:21,680
A shill or anything just, I'm genuinely curious from your experience, what works best for

1535
01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:23,800
you and for people that you're trying to teach?

1536
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:24,800
Sure.

1537
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:25,800
And that was lovely.

1538
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:27,440
I could listen to you for days, mate.

1539
01:21:27,440 --> 01:21:28,440
That was lovely.

1540
01:21:28,440 --> 01:21:29,440
Well, thank you.

1541
01:21:29,440 --> 01:21:31,280
Your preambles of that question was lovely.

1542
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:36,120
So as you know, I'm no longer at all affiliated or sponsored by Wallops Satoshi because I

1543
01:21:36,120 --> 01:21:39,600
said there is a potential rug risk there.

1544
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:41,480
So we know it's not sponsored at all.

1545
01:21:41,480 --> 01:21:42,480
Yes.

1546
01:21:42,480 --> 01:21:46,360
But I do think that it is, you know, it is a very, very good lightning wallet and they

1547
01:21:46,360 --> 01:21:50,480
do tend to implement the features that eventually get copied by other lightning wallets, which

1548
01:21:50,480 --> 01:21:54,440
is quite good in a way that there is, you know, there's, it's not necessarily competition.

1549
01:21:54,440 --> 01:21:58,360
I mean, I guess it is technically, but it's, you know, people are pushing the envelope and

1550
01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:02,360
trying to get that UX better and better because ultimately we are competing with, you know,

1551
01:22:02,360 --> 01:22:06,520
double tap the side of your phone, Face ID and Apple Pay and, you know, all those fiat

1552
01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:07,800
based solutions.

1553
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:08,920
That is ultimately the goal.

1554
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:11,720
We've got to get it faster, quicker, you know, better than that.

1555
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:16,520
I know it's not all about, you know, payments, the payments narrative, but if, you know,

1556
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:21,320
lightning is literally a layer two payment scaling solution.

1557
01:22:21,320 --> 01:22:22,600
So what do I recommend?

1558
01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:25,200
It really is like, you know, it's the beauty of Bitcoin, right?

1559
01:22:25,200 --> 01:22:26,400
The choice is yours.

1560
01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:28,320
You can do whatever you want with it.

1561
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:31,400
Some people just sit on it and hodl it for 10 years and then they don't even spend it.

1562
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:34,280
They just take their private keys to their grave.

1563
01:22:34,280 --> 01:22:40,000
But if I'm doing a, if I've got a camera rolling and I want the wow factor, then recently

1564
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:46,840
I've been doing Wall of Satoshi or Blink because weirdly, since the Wall of Satoshi ban in

1565
01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:50,840
the U.S., I've had some problems in showing people Wall of Satoshi for the first time.

1566
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:55,560
And we just didn't like appear on the App Store or like yesterday or the day before yesterday,

1567
01:22:55,560 --> 01:23:01,520
a Bulgarian fella, I went to like zap him some saps from my ring and he just, it, it

1568
01:23:01,520 --> 01:23:03,280
froze on the screen.

1569
01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:06,840
And so like when you have like a couple of instances like that, you're like, okay, well,

1570
01:23:06,840 --> 01:23:07,840
that's it.

1571
01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:09,440
I'm not going to use that wallet anymore.

1572
01:23:09,440 --> 01:23:10,440
I do really like Blink.

1573
01:23:10,440 --> 01:23:13,480
And I think Blink is a fantastic wallet.

1574
01:23:13,480 --> 01:23:14,960
The UX is pretty great.

1575
01:23:14,960 --> 01:23:17,960
The fact that you can create an address that's yours personalizing, you can send to that

1576
01:23:17,960 --> 01:23:18,960
immediately.

1577
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:24,320
They also now have NFC and I know where the co-founders live.

1578
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:28,240
So the rug risk is sort of mitigated.

1579
01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:31,240
And for everyone listening, if you're not familiar with Blink, it is the wallet that

1580
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:35,600
started out as the Bitcoin Beach Wallet built by Glowy Money.

1581
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:38,320
It's not available for U.S. folks.

1582
01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:39,720
Oh, is it not?

1583
01:23:39,720 --> 01:23:40,720
It is not.

1584
01:23:40,720 --> 01:23:41,720
Okay.

1585
01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:42,720
It is not.

1586
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:43,720
This is, this is, this is sad.

1587
01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:44,720
I know, but it's okay.

1588
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:47,080
We don't, the U.S. is, this is a multi-polar world, right?

1589
01:23:47,080 --> 01:23:52,960
The U.S. isn't the, the center anymore, but it's, it's a fantastic, fantastic wallet.

1590
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:55,520
I have somehow managed to get it.

1591
01:23:55,520 --> 01:23:56,520
Nice.

1592
01:23:56,520 --> 01:24:01,080
I'm just, but if any regulatory agencies are listening to this, I'm just purely testing

1593
01:24:01,080 --> 01:24:06,120
it and I'm not quite sure how I got it, but it's a wonderful, wonderful wallet.

1594
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:10,120
And I don't know CZ, or CZ.

1595
01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:13,600
I certainly don't know.

1596
01:24:13,600 --> 01:24:18,160
But have you been, have you been using Phoenix at all for recently?

1597
01:24:18,160 --> 01:24:23,160
So I use Phoenix personally day to day and I recommend Phoenix to people that have like

1598
01:24:23,160 --> 01:24:25,720
the tiniest bit of crypto knowledge.

1599
01:24:25,720 --> 01:24:29,280
Like I say crypto because they might be someone that's like, you know, I've been standing

1600
01:24:29,280 --> 01:24:31,840
on the street dressed as a Bitcoin, they're like, oh, you're a Bitcoin guy.

1601
01:24:31,840 --> 01:24:32,840
I'm like, oh, you recognize it.

1602
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:34,840
You must know something like, you know, Bitcoin or crypto.

1603
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:36,560
And they're like, yeah, I've got MetaMask this.

1604
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:38,400
And I'm like, oh, fuck, here we go.

1605
01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:39,400
Yeah.

1606
01:24:39,400 --> 01:24:40,400
Let me show you.

1607
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:41,400
Yeah.

1608
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:43,680
Let me show you like a non-custodial issues solution.

1609
01:24:43,680 --> 01:24:45,240
And we go from there.

1610
01:24:45,240 --> 01:24:49,240
But bear in mind that a lot of the time if there's a camera rolling, I'm doing it so that

1611
01:24:49,240 --> 01:24:50,680
it works.

1612
01:24:50,680 --> 01:24:54,960
And as we know, custodial lightning solutions work every time.

1613
01:24:54,960 --> 01:24:59,640
I mean, I've never had like a payment fail on a blink or a wall of Satoshi for my own

1614
01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:00,880
like choice.

1615
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:05,480
Like I transact with Phoenix because I like the fact that it's non-custodial and, you

1616
01:25:05,480 --> 01:25:07,000
know, it has all those lovely benefits.

1617
01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:11,120
But then, you know, if you're looking for other sort of nice custodial solutions, then

1618
01:25:11,120 --> 01:25:13,880
Osmo wallet is a great choice in Guatemala.

1619
01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:15,400
I think their UX is fantastic.

1620
01:25:15,400 --> 01:25:19,960
They've also got a learn section, which is also why I like introducing people to Bitcoin

1621
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:22,280
via blink or Bitcoin Beach wallet because it has a learn.

1622
01:25:22,280 --> 01:25:25,760
I don't know if you've seen it on the fourth tab is a learn section and every lesson you

1623
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:28,320
do you earn a Satoshi, but it goes up in sat.

1624
01:25:28,320 --> 01:25:31,760
So the first lesson is one sat, then two sat, four sat, eight sat and so on and so on, which

1625
01:25:31,760 --> 01:25:33,480
is pretty cool.

1626
01:25:33,480 --> 01:25:37,280
I don't know how high it goes because I've only done the first three lessons and it's

1627
01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:38,920
in lots of different languages too.

1628
01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:46,600
And it's kind of become the wallet of choice for Bitcoin circular economies.

1629
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:52,480
But yeah, I mean, if I look at my Phoenix wallet, it is an absolute, it's just a car

1630
01:25:52,480 --> 01:25:53,480
crash of transactions.

1631
01:25:53,480 --> 01:25:55,520
I mean, that's just today.

1632
01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:59,800
It's because I live on a Bitcoin standard, I have done it for a while now and that's

1633
01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:02,040
my, that's just nice.

1634
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:04,040
It was past week.

1635
01:26:04,040 --> 01:26:08,760
So yeah, personally, I advocate for non-custodial solutions, but if I'm making content, then

1636
01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:09,760
I want to do something reliable.

1637
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:16,040
But then for my friends, my family or whatever, then I'll also recommend that you use blink.

1638
01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:21,240
But then sometimes I'll also WAP out the coin corner wallet because it has amazing animation.

1639
01:26:21,240 --> 01:26:24,920
That lightning bolt animation?

1640
01:26:24,920 --> 01:26:28,120
Another wallet that in the U.S., our regulators are protecting us from.

1641
01:26:28,120 --> 01:26:29,120
How kind of them?

1642
01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:30,120
Oh no.

1643
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:31,120
I know.

1644
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:32,120
It's to be an American.

1645
01:26:32,120 --> 01:26:33,120
Isn't it beautiful?

1646
01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:36,920
Yeah, I mean, I can say the same thing about the UK at the moment, mate.

1647
01:26:36,920 --> 01:26:39,520
It's equally dire straits.

1648
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:41,840
Well, it's a shame.

1649
01:26:41,840 --> 01:26:47,680
You know, even, I don't know if you saw the news with UTXO posted about it with node-less

1650
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:54,600
Canadian regulators are like prosecuting as a money transmitter.

1651
01:26:54,600 --> 01:26:59,160
It always comes down to the money transmitter laws with when regulators are concerned, which

1652
01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:05,800
I just find to be honestly just so fucking stupid because you've got people that are

1653
01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:14,880
working really hard to create solutions that work for people around the world.

1654
01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:20,320
And yet you're deciding that in your country, people need to be protected from this actual

1655
01:27:20,320 --> 01:27:25,840
innovation because they somehow don't dot the right eyes and cross the right T's and

1656
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:33,760
get the right licenses and bend the knee to your pseudo-fascist state.

1657
01:27:33,760 --> 01:27:37,080
It's just fucking stupid.

1658
01:27:37,080 --> 01:27:44,120
And this is another reason why I think that the global south has a wonderful opportunity

1659
01:27:44,120 --> 01:27:52,120
to leapfrog ahead because hopefully they won't have the same just idiotic attitude towards

1660
01:27:52,120 --> 01:28:00,040
stifling creativity and building of real solutions for people because honestly, they're just,

1661
01:28:00,040 --> 01:28:05,920
in a lot of cases, aren't as many regulations in place that would protect against this.

1662
01:28:05,920 --> 01:28:14,000
But you look at the US, Canada, the UK, these are places with just massive regulatory apparatuses.

1663
01:28:14,000 --> 01:28:20,440
And so an army of bureaucrats who make it their mission to at least have something so

1664
01:28:20,440 --> 01:28:21,440
that they look busy, right?

1665
01:28:21,440 --> 01:28:25,000
Like, you got to look busy, you got to have something that you're doing, got to make

1666
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:29,720
sure that you're earning that paycheck and government pension paid for with taxpayer

1667
01:28:29,720 --> 01:28:30,720
dollars.

1668
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:35,640
So thank you to all the regulators out there who insist on pushing innovation overseas.

1669
01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:39,880
You're doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing.

1670
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:42,400
But therein, I bet I felt good to get off your chest, didn't it?

1671
01:28:42,400 --> 01:28:43,400
It did.

1672
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:46,120
But I'll keep it in for now.

1673
01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:47,120
Okay.

1674
01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:50,920
But just to that point, if you know, I mean, I know we're talking about regulation, but

1675
01:28:50,920 --> 01:28:53,640
it sort of ties into the AML KYC stuff.

1676
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:57,960
I mean, Mike Peterson says it best, you know, the director of Bitcoin Beach is like, you

1677
01:28:57,960 --> 01:29:03,800
know, AML KYC laws are just the most awful sort of poisonous things, particularly for

1678
01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:08,720
the global south, because they ended up sort of looking at the global south as like a cost.

1679
01:29:08,720 --> 01:29:11,720
And it makes it so that it's too expensive to bank.

1680
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:13,880
And therefore they're going to stay unbanked forever.

1681
01:29:13,880 --> 01:29:19,760
So for as long as we have AML KYC laws in place, we are going to continue with an unbanked

1682
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:20,840
global south.

1683
01:29:20,840 --> 01:29:22,440
And that's just completely ridiculous.

1684
01:29:22,440 --> 01:29:28,520
And the only solution to this, or that I know of, and I'm pretty mid, so I will admit,

1685
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:31,400
but it is an open source protocol, right?

1686
01:29:31,400 --> 01:29:33,880
That has a very low barrier to entry.

1687
01:29:33,880 --> 01:29:38,120
And yeah, maybe the path to really fully getting to grips with that open source protocol is

1688
01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:40,920
through a custodial lightning wallet released at first.

1689
01:29:40,920 --> 01:29:44,360
But I think it's another thing that maybe Bitcoiners don't quite understand.

1690
01:29:44,360 --> 01:29:48,360
It's that going from a cash-based economy where you're hiding your money under your

1691
01:29:48,360 --> 01:29:54,680
mattress every night, living with upwards of 80% inflation year on year to a custodial

1692
01:29:54,680 --> 01:30:00,200
lightning wallet backed by the likes of Galloy, which is sort of, I think, run or owned or

1693
01:30:00,200 --> 01:30:04,720
invested in by Bitfinex, which is obviously, you know, Tether and Bitfinex is one of the

1694
01:30:04,720 --> 01:30:09,760
most solid, you know, in terms of investments companies in the world.

1695
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:14,600
Like that leap from cash inflationary awful thing to, yes, lightning custodial wallet

1696
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:19,680
with life savings of, say, $30, $40, $100, that's incredibly substantial.

1697
01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:22,880
And I think that that's the point that a lot of Bitcoiners are missing.

1698
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:23,880
And what does that mean?

1699
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:27,080
That you know that, you know, you've got your money on your phone now, and you know that

1700
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:29,400
it's going slightly up in value over time.

1701
01:30:29,400 --> 01:30:31,600
How do you think about your future differently?

1702
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:33,800
It effectively changes your time preference.

1703
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:39,360
So why can't Bitcoiners get behind that when all we want to do as a collective is to lower

1704
01:30:39,360 --> 01:30:40,360
our time preference, right?

1705
01:30:40,360 --> 01:30:45,280
Because we know that ultimately that pushes to this much more sort of meaningful, sustainable,

1706
01:30:45,280 --> 01:30:49,040
longer, not sustainable in the wishy-washy ESG crap sense, but you know,

1707
01:30:49,040 --> 01:30:50,040
I've got you.

1708
01:30:50,040 --> 01:30:51,040
... sustainable world.

1709
01:30:51,040 --> 01:30:53,480
Yeah, like real sustainability, not buzzword sustainability.

1710
01:30:53,480 --> 01:30:54,480
Yes, yes.

1711
01:30:54,480 --> 01:30:56,720
No, I completely agree.

1712
01:30:56,720 --> 01:31:01,760
Because I, you see a lot of, you know, anytime, for instance, you know, if you're talking

1713
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:04,720
about lightning wall, it's to recommend to people.

1714
01:31:04,720 --> 01:31:09,320
And if you dare to recommend any sort of custodial solution, it's like, oh, that's

1715
01:31:09,320 --> 01:31:12,240
... that's a... it's essentially a quated...

1716
01:31:12,240 --> 01:31:13,240
Mr. H.A.

1717
01:31:13,240 --> 01:31:14,240
... jail.

1718
01:31:14,240 --> 01:31:15,240
Yeah, with a shit coin.

1719
01:31:15,240 --> 01:31:17,680
Basically, it's like, well, you may as well just be a shit coin.

1720
01:31:17,680 --> 01:31:23,400
And it's like, no one, at least I can speak for myself, and I assume you as well.

1721
01:31:23,400 --> 01:31:29,200
And most of the people that I talk to that go out and actively try to educate in public,

1722
01:31:29,200 --> 01:31:32,800
let's say, you're not telling people, here, this is the wallet you'll use for the rest

1723
01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:36,320
of your life, and you should put your whole life savings on here.

1724
01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:37,320
You're saying here...

1725
01:31:37,320 --> 01:31:38,320
It's not FTX.

1726
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:39,320
Yeah.

1727
01:31:39,320 --> 01:31:45,320
Here, try this so that I can at least get my foot in the door of explaining to you how

1728
01:31:45,320 --> 01:31:47,120
incredible this Bitcoin thing is.

1729
01:31:47,120 --> 01:31:51,280
And I'm going to do it through this custodial lightning solution, but you know what?

1730
01:31:51,280 --> 01:31:55,680
If you start doing more research, you'll quickly realize that there are a lot better options

1731
01:31:55,680 --> 01:31:59,280
if you want to save any significant amount of your wealth in this.

1732
01:31:59,280 --> 01:32:02,280
And that means you can do it non-custodially.

1733
01:32:02,280 --> 01:32:06,240
You can have it so that only you control it, and you can do that in such an easy way that

1734
01:32:06,240 --> 01:32:14,800
it just requires you to know 12 or 24 words, and granted, self-custody itself is not a walk

1735
01:32:14,800 --> 01:32:19,000
in the park specifically for people who are just getting acquainted with this, but it's

1736
01:32:19,000 --> 01:32:20,720
getting easier and it's getting better.

1737
01:32:20,720 --> 01:32:23,680
And there's more and more educational resources to learn this stuff.

1738
01:32:23,680 --> 01:32:31,360
So, I think it's anytime you're showing somebody here, here's Waldo Satoshi or here's Blink,

1739
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:36,200
it's always with the caveat that, listen, this is great for like a little bit of something

1740
01:32:36,200 --> 01:32:39,840
that's spending money, but you don't want to put your whole life savings here.

1741
01:32:39,840 --> 01:32:43,560
Once you're ready to do that, you want to put it in something that you can have complete

1742
01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:48,280
control over, and that's on the first, you know, that's layer one Bitcoin.

1743
01:32:48,280 --> 01:32:51,120
That's the base of it all, right?

1744
01:32:51,120 --> 01:32:55,520
And that is what gives you that true sovereignty, like custodial solutions don't give you that

1745
01:32:55,520 --> 01:33:01,040
sovereignty, but they do at least allow you to like utilize this incredible technology

1746
01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:02,040
on the layer too.

1747
01:33:02,040 --> 01:33:03,040
Like that's what it's there for.

1748
01:33:03,040 --> 01:33:06,720
It's not there to be a perfect solution for your long-term self-custody needs.

1749
01:33:06,720 --> 01:33:10,680
No, it's there to be a great way to transact with Bitcoin.

1750
01:33:10,680 --> 01:33:12,320
And I think that's missed a lot of times.

1751
01:33:12,320 --> 01:33:15,080
Like, yeah, I think Phoenix Waldo is fantastic.

1752
01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:20,920
And I think it's great that you have a way to do self-custodial lightning that's pretty

1753
01:33:20,920 --> 01:33:23,320
easy for most people, right?

1754
01:33:23,320 --> 01:33:27,280
Like, especially if you've already got a little bit of familiarity, but I'm also very grateful

1755
01:33:27,280 --> 01:33:29,240
these custodial solutions exist.

1756
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:34,120
Yeah, and just like Phoenix recently has got a lot of flak because you know, so, oh, the

1757
01:33:34,120 --> 01:33:35,120
fees are crazy high.

1758
01:33:35,120 --> 01:33:39,720
And it's, I mean, I think it was Ben, beat sessions, we're talking about him a lot,

1759
01:33:39,720 --> 01:33:40,720
aren't we?

1760
01:33:40,720 --> 01:33:42,680
His ears are burning right now.

1761
01:33:42,680 --> 01:33:43,680
Yeah.

1762
01:33:43,680 --> 01:33:49,200
He put us, we like, oh, if you receive enough inbound liquidity at some point, then, you

1763
01:33:49,200 --> 01:33:50,760
know, your channels are fine.

1764
01:33:50,760 --> 01:33:53,800
And this goes a bit above my bare mind of a journalist pay grade.

1765
01:33:53,800 --> 01:34:00,320
So I was, I was like, I've never paid a fee of more than, I don't know, like maybe like

1766
01:34:00,320 --> 01:34:04,120
4000 satts, let's say, for a Phoenix transaction.

1767
01:34:04,120 --> 01:34:07,800
And sometimes I'm transacting in the range of like 100, 200, 300 euros.

1768
01:34:07,800 --> 01:34:12,600
Like just on the way home today, I bought another Uber credit because Uber is on bit

1769
01:34:12,600 --> 01:34:16,000
refill and, you know, that's how I'm getting to him from the airport.

1770
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:19,440
And again, I looked at the fee and it was like three pence, which is, you know, like

1771
01:34:19,440 --> 01:34:21,560
four cents or something.

1772
01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:22,560
Just three pence.

1773
01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:24,160
Thruppence.

1774
01:34:24,160 --> 01:34:26,160
It was literally thruppence.

1775
01:34:26,160 --> 01:34:27,160
Yes.

1776
01:34:27,160 --> 01:34:30,160
I've always wanted to use thruppence correctly.

1777
01:34:30,160 --> 01:34:31,400
This is a big day for me.

1778
01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:33,280
Mate, I don't actually know what thruppence means.

1779
01:34:33,280 --> 01:34:35,360
I'm going to get on.

1780
01:34:35,360 --> 01:34:36,360
I might be wrong.

1781
01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:38,000
It might be something else actually.

1782
01:34:38,000 --> 01:34:39,000
Now I'm not sure.

1783
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:40,280
Now I've got me second guessing myself.

1784
01:34:40,280 --> 01:34:42,080
Let's just, we'll just assume it's correct.

1785
01:34:42,080 --> 01:34:43,440
It's definitely three pence.

1786
01:34:43,440 --> 01:34:44,440
That makes sense.

1787
01:34:44,440 --> 01:34:45,440
Yeah, it does.

1788
01:34:45,440 --> 01:34:46,440
Yeah, we'll go with it.

1789
01:34:46,440 --> 01:34:47,440
And it sounds so cool.

1790
01:34:47,440 --> 01:34:48,440
But sorry, continue.

1791
01:34:48,440 --> 01:34:50,640
Well, no, but that was, that was at my point.

1792
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:55,600
It was only thruppence and I've definitely done something correct on my Phoenix journey

1793
01:34:55,600 --> 01:34:58,280
to never have paid a very expensive fee.

1794
01:34:58,280 --> 01:35:04,080
But also I opened like the first channel on Phoenix when it was 10,000 sats and like

1795
01:35:04,080 --> 01:35:06,560
10,000 sats for me does not break the bank.

1796
01:35:06,560 --> 01:35:12,000
Yes, it does break the bank for a Cuban and that is of course like really shit.

1797
01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:13,640
We need to find solutions for that.

1798
01:35:13,640 --> 01:35:17,320
I mean, I've actually got pinned another one of Ben's videos for tonight.

1799
01:35:17,320 --> 01:35:23,760
He just released the lightning liquid how to swap in and out like to presumably to help

1800
01:35:23,760 --> 01:35:28,000
solve or help work towards solving this kind of problem.

1801
01:35:28,000 --> 01:35:31,720
But it's like what you were saying earlier, you know, this is 15 year old technology.

1802
01:35:31,720 --> 01:35:33,600
The solutions we have right now are pretty great.

1803
01:35:33,600 --> 01:35:37,380
They get a lot of us pretty excited and the implications or the consequences of maybe

1804
01:35:37,380 --> 01:35:43,040
adopting this Bitcoin standard like who wouldn't want to try it, you know, right?

1805
01:35:43,040 --> 01:35:47,440
It's a really cool thing to work towards.

1806
01:35:47,440 --> 01:35:50,440
If we do have some issues with non-custodial and custodial lightning and that's just one

1807
01:35:50,440 --> 01:35:51,440
layer too.

1808
01:35:51,440 --> 01:35:53,720
There's going to be lots of others.

1809
01:35:53,720 --> 01:35:56,600
I don't know enough about any of the others.

1810
01:35:56,600 --> 01:36:06,040
I've seen about seven or eight talks of liquid this year, even like spoke to a name Scott

1811
01:36:06,040 --> 01:36:11,000
that gave two of the talks who is like the head of one of the guys high up at Liquid,

1812
01:36:11,000 --> 01:36:12,000
really nice guy.

1813
01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:15,440
And I was like, but may I still not use Liquid like when am I going to use?

1814
01:36:15,440 --> 01:36:18,440
Can you just sit me down and like talk me through how using it?

1815
01:36:18,440 --> 01:36:21,320
So maybe I'll do it tonight with Ben's video.

1816
01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:22,320
It's on.

1817
01:36:22,320 --> 01:36:23,440
You should you should check it out.

1818
01:36:23,440 --> 01:36:26,760
And Ben is sessions you got sessions.

1819
01:36:26,760 --> 01:36:31,040
I hope you listen to this and just hear how much we're fawning over you in this recording.

1820
01:36:31,040 --> 01:36:34,760
But it's such a great way to start out with literally learning anything new in Bitcoin.

1821
01:36:34,760 --> 01:36:39,160
I'm very grateful for that service that he provides there because it's incredibly valuable.

1822
01:36:39,160 --> 01:36:45,880
But Liquid, I hadn't used it until maybe little over a year ago now, maybe a year and a half

1823
01:36:45,880 --> 01:36:52,400
ago and have used it relatively consistently since then.

1824
01:36:52,400 --> 01:36:54,400
And it works really fucking well.

1825
01:36:54,400 --> 01:36:57,000
Like I haven't had any issues with it whatsoever.

1826
01:36:57,000 --> 01:37:00,000
And I use a block stream green.

1827
01:37:00,000 --> 01:37:01,000
I got one.

1828
01:37:01,000 --> 01:37:02,000
Oh, okay.

1829
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:03,000
Yeah.

1830
01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:04,000
Yeah.

1831
01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:07,840
So and it's, you know, I saw I've got my once you write down your your words and you boot

1832
01:37:07,840 --> 01:37:09,280
up that wallet.

1833
01:37:09,280 --> 01:37:12,240
It's a, you know, you can spin up a Bitcoin wallet out of there on chain or you can spin

1834
01:37:12,240 --> 01:37:17,240
up a liquid wallet and honestly, like liquid super fast and it's a federated systems.

1835
01:37:17,240 --> 01:37:21,600
You've got to forget how many like they've got like 12 different of their like Federation

1836
01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:23,160
nodes, I believe.

1837
01:37:23,160 --> 01:37:29,040
And so granted, you're, you're putting a little bit of trust into that Federation, right?

1838
01:37:29,040 --> 01:37:35,600
But again, it's another solution for being able to transact cheaply and very quickly

1839
01:37:35,600 --> 01:37:38,280
and everything's a trade off, right?

1840
01:37:38,280 --> 01:37:44,000
Like you can use, if you're ultimately just concerned about transferring large amounts

1841
01:37:44,000 --> 01:37:50,000
of value and you're okay with having final settlement in about 60 minutes, which isn't

1842
01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:54,280
that long at all by the traditional standard of things, you know, for final settlement,

1843
01:37:54,280 --> 01:37:55,360
it's actually quite fast.

1844
01:37:55,360 --> 01:37:58,880
But if that's all you're worried about, then use on chain.

1845
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:04,760
And if you are okay with giving up a little bit of potential, let's say, or accepting

1846
01:38:04,760 --> 01:38:10,640
a little bit of trust in something else, then use a custodial or non custodial or federated

1847
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:14,800
solution like liquid or like lightning or custodial lightning.

1848
01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:20,120
And you've got another, you know, you've got another great way to go about your, your use

1849
01:38:20,120 --> 01:38:22,040
of this monetary technology.

1850
01:38:22,040 --> 01:38:25,920
Because again, it's like the, the base layer works fantastic.

1851
01:38:25,920 --> 01:38:29,500
We, this has been tried and tested for a while.

1852
01:38:29,500 --> 01:38:33,680
It's going to get more and more expensive to use that base layer as it should.

1853
01:38:33,680 --> 01:38:39,480
And that's why I always think that the whole like the Bitcoin security budget is, is not,

1854
01:38:39,480 --> 01:38:43,400
it's a huge concern like if Bitcoin's not going to generate enough in fees, that it's

1855
01:38:43,400 --> 01:38:48,080
going to be able to, you know, sustain itself and you're going to have to increase the total

1856
01:38:48,080 --> 01:38:52,960
supply of Bitcoin, like a lot of the crypto side folks throw this out of some fun, which

1857
01:38:52,960 --> 01:38:55,080
I just think is patently absurd.

1858
01:38:55,080 --> 01:38:58,400
Because if you see the trend of fees, like it's going one way and it's going up.

1859
01:38:58,400 --> 01:39:03,640
And I think what people miss about that is they're denominating the value in fees in

1860
01:39:03,640 --> 01:39:09,440
the present day value of Bitcoin relative to other fiat's and other assets, which is

1861
01:39:09,440 --> 01:39:11,240
just very short sighted.

1862
01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:17,400
So that's a, that was a long winded and roundabout way of me to say that Bitcoin doesn't care

1863
01:39:17,400 --> 01:39:23,360
what version of it you use and use what works best for you in any particular situation.

1864
01:39:23,360 --> 01:39:28,440
And it's again, as you said, it's, it's a, you have options, like use what's going to

1865
01:39:28,440 --> 01:39:29,440
work best.

1866
01:39:29,440 --> 01:39:31,160
That's the, that's going to be the, of it.

1867
01:39:31,160 --> 01:39:36,120
I think it's also just a bit like men just being like annoying men sometimes, like, oh,

1868
01:39:36,120 --> 01:39:37,120
on the second bit of noise.

1869
01:39:37,120 --> 01:39:38,120
Oh, they're light beer.

1870
01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:39,120
They're light.

1871
01:39:39,120 --> 01:39:40,120
They're light beer.

1872
01:39:40,120 --> 01:39:44,480
So it's okay, you know, you say men being men.

1873
01:39:44,480 --> 01:39:49,600
Well, you know, it's like, um, I'm sure this is a gif or a joke or it's definitely a recurring

1874
01:39:49,600 --> 01:39:53,240
thing in comedy, you know, not like a man tinkering with his engine or something.

1875
01:39:53,240 --> 01:39:57,680
Another man comes over and he's like, oh, I see you got the, the swirly bop thing there.

1876
01:39:57,680 --> 01:40:01,360
And I used to have that one, like, oh, I wouldn't do that if I was you.

1877
01:40:01,360 --> 01:40:05,360
So I know I, I'd rather use a swirly bop 3000 or whatever it may be.

1878
01:40:05,360 --> 01:40:11,360
And we're all just like, sort of like just being silly men about this, being like, oh,

1879
01:40:11,360 --> 01:40:13,760
you shouldn't use the Phoenix for more than a thousand dollars.

1880
01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:15,760
And that should be on, on training.

1881
01:40:15,760 --> 01:40:17,760
You must be a swirly bop 3000.

1882
01:40:17,760 --> 01:40:20,760
You can't just speak to the devil and she will appear.

1883
01:40:20,760 --> 01:40:21,760
Hi darling.

1884
01:40:21,760 --> 01:40:22,760
Nice to see you.

1885
01:40:22,760 --> 01:40:23,760
Yeah.

1886
01:40:23,760 --> 01:40:24,760
You need it for one of those.

1887
01:40:24,760 --> 01:40:26,760
I said to send my love, please say I'm not interrupting anything.

1888
01:40:26,760 --> 01:40:28,760
You're not.

1889
01:40:28,760 --> 01:40:30,760
This is, this is, this is open form.

1890
01:40:30,760 --> 01:40:33,400
This, this podcast is very, very inclusive.

1891
01:40:33,400 --> 01:40:35,200
So it's okay.

1892
01:40:35,200 --> 01:40:37,360
We were just talking about swirly bop 3000s.

1893
01:40:37,360 --> 01:40:41,120
Joe was regaling us with his knowledge of, of, of car systems.

1894
01:40:41,120 --> 01:40:42,120
You know what?

1895
01:40:42,120 --> 01:40:44,880
While you're here, do you want to introduce yourself for the folks that will eventually

1896
01:40:44,880 --> 01:40:45,880
listen to this?

1897
01:40:45,880 --> 01:40:50,560
Hi, I'm Sophie Nakamoto, otherwise known as Joe's swirly bop 3000.

1898
01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:53,760
Not speaking to use my swirly bop 2000.

1899
01:40:53,760 --> 01:40:54,760
Yeah.

1900
01:40:54,760 --> 01:40:57,200
I just wonder you took Joe's name, you know?

1901
01:40:57,200 --> 01:40:58,200
Yeah.

1902
01:40:58,200 --> 01:40:59,200
Oh man.

1903
01:40:59,200 --> 01:41:03,280
I was supposed to be delivering beers and a virtual one to you.

1904
01:41:03,280 --> 01:41:06,200
So apologies, but I've got caught up in the, oh cheers.

1905
01:41:06,200 --> 01:41:07,200
Cheers.

1906
01:41:07,200 --> 01:41:11,080
I've got caught up in trying to master how to do reels in this day and age.

1907
01:41:11,080 --> 01:41:15,800
Cause when I've been away with Joe, I figured that actually this creative direction needs

1908
01:41:15,800 --> 01:41:20,240
a little flair from, from me with the music behind it.

1909
01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:22,560
So I've literally just been doing my homework for you.

1910
01:41:22,560 --> 01:41:23,560
Genuinely.

1911
01:41:23,560 --> 01:41:24,560
Genuinely.

1912
01:41:24,560 --> 01:41:26,440
I think you, but also please don't do that.

1913
01:41:26,440 --> 01:41:28,440
You don't need to do that.

1914
01:41:28,440 --> 01:41:30,280
Um, I have editors for this sort of thing.

1915
01:41:30,280 --> 01:41:32,480
I have a full team of one person.

1916
01:41:32,480 --> 01:41:35,640
Darling, they're not me.

1917
01:41:35,640 --> 01:41:37,040
I love the dynamic here.

1918
01:41:37,040 --> 01:41:38,040
It's really beautiful.

1919
01:41:38,040 --> 01:41:42,760
She's been, honestly, she's been camera lady extraordinaire for the past couple of days

1920
01:41:42,760 --> 01:41:44,760
swirling my bop 3000.

1921
01:41:44,760 --> 01:41:45,760
And yeah, exactly.

1922
01:41:45,760 --> 01:41:46,760
Yeah.

1923
01:41:46,760 --> 01:41:47,760
There could be children listening to that.

1924
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:49,080
I'm going to have to edit that one out.

1925
01:41:49,080 --> 01:41:52,360
I think that was, that was, that was the one line when you're talking about swirly bop

1926
01:41:52,360 --> 01:41:56,440
3000s that it's like, Oh boy, that's going to, that's going to get me kicked off of all

1927
01:41:56,440 --> 01:41:57,520
the platforms.

1928
01:41:57,520 --> 01:42:03,960
Can you, can you tell that we are a little bit overworked, exhausted and traveled out?

1929
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:04,960
Is that all?

1930
01:42:04,960 --> 01:42:09,920
I mean, you know, for a good reason, I would say, like, but that's a beautiful thing, right?

1931
01:42:09,920 --> 01:42:16,840
And I think that, uh, there's, uh, sometimes nothing more satisfying, uh, all than being

1932
01:42:16,840 --> 01:42:19,280
completely bone tired.

1933
01:42:19,280 --> 01:42:20,840
Because it's like, wow, okay.

1934
01:42:20,840 --> 01:42:22,400
I did a lot to get here.

1935
01:42:22,400 --> 01:42:24,160
Like I'm fucking exhausted.

1936
01:42:24,160 --> 01:42:27,400
And that means that there was some hard work involved.

1937
01:42:27,400 --> 01:42:32,520
And especially when you're traveling and like, I don't, honestly, I don't know how, like,

1938
01:42:32,520 --> 01:42:37,920
you really are a natural out there with it, Joe, because not everybody can just like,

1939
01:42:37,920 --> 01:42:43,560
I'm just saying, like, I, I have seen you drop into so many of these men in the street

1940
01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:49,720
things and you've been greeted with, uh, probably every possible range of human emotions in

1941
01:42:49,720 --> 01:42:54,800
terms of what people say or don't say to you.

1942
01:42:54,800 --> 01:43:00,560
Uh, so I want to say thank you for the, your service there, because it is not an easy thing

1943
01:43:00,560 --> 01:43:08,520
to just go out and talk about this, you know, fucking random new monetary, who's he what

1944
01:43:08,520 --> 01:43:18,760
he swirly Bob 3000 technology that is, uh, daunting and confusing and seems like you're,

1945
01:43:18,760 --> 01:43:21,800
it's too good to be true, especially when you're just out there giving people, you're

1946
01:43:21,800 --> 01:43:24,200
like, Hey, listen, I'm just trying to give you money.

1947
01:43:24,200 --> 01:43:27,640
Like I'm amazed how many people say no to you.

1948
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:33,400
Like I've seen where they're like, no, I don't, I don't want the, you know, the five, the

1949
01:43:33,400 --> 01:43:35,560
five pounds or the five dollars or whatever.

1950
01:43:35,560 --> 01:43:37,560
Like that just, that blows my mind.

1951
01:43:37,560 --> 01:43:43,560
I guess it just, does that just speak to people being generally wary of scams?

1952
01:43:43,560 --> 01:43:47,840
Like, I think it's a real thing of human psychology as well as you've got to be a real

1953
01:43:47,840 --> 01:43:51,560
chameleon to kind of try and it's almost like, yeah, where the marketing slash sales team

1954
01:43:51,560 --> 01:43:54,880
for this in a way, but it's always that kind of Kip Asa.

1955
01:43:54,880 --> 01:43:59,320
Like there's a narrowing of the eyes and you have to kind of adapt to that situation or

1956
01:43:59,320 --> 01:44:04,160
that person, that person's body language or like what they're kind of, what their pressure

1957
01:44:04,160 --> 01:44:07,400
point or whatever it is that you can kind of sense from them in that moment to think,

1958
01:44:07,400 --> 01:44:11,080
Hey, what angle is the best way that I can capture their attention within five seconds?

1959
01:44:11,080 --> 01:44:12,560
Because otherwise you've lost them.

1960
01:44:12,560 --> 01:44:15,160
It's like the real life video stuff, isn't it?

1961
01:44:15,160 --> 01:44:18,480
You know, if you've lost them within that few seconds, then that's it.

1962
01:44:18,480 --> 01:44:23,160
They've walked away already and you can't pull them back physically because that's frowned

1963
01:44:23,160 --> 01:44:24,160
upon.

1964
01:44:24,160 --> 01:44:25,160
We found that out the hard way.

1965
01:44:25,160 --> 01:44:26,160
Right, right.

1966
01:44:26,160 --> 01:44:28,040
Yeah, you're not allowed to restrain somebody.

1967
01:44:28,040 --> 01:44:29,040
I have heard that.

1968
01:44:29,040 --> 01:44:33,360
But I think that that's such an important point too about when it comes to, because Joe,

1969
01:44:33,360 --> 01:44:37,800
you're talking about, you know, Bitcoiners always wanting to say, well, you shouldn't

1970
01:44:37,800 --> 01:44:40,200
do this or you shouldn't do that.

1971
01:44:40,200 --> 01:44:46,520
And you're on the ground and I have not done nearly as much Bitcoin education and orange

1972
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:47,920
pilling on the ground as you have.

1973
01:44:47,920 --> 01:44:52,600
I daresay the 99.9% of Bitcoiners have not.

1974
01:44:52,600 --> 01:44:57,200
But what I have learned is that as you said, so if you don't hook somebody and get them

1975
01:44:57,200 --> 01:45:01,440
to at least be curious in the first few seconds and then once you start showing them how it

1976
01:45:01,440 --> 01:45:06,200
works, if it's not seamless, you've already lost them.

1977
01:45:06,200 --> 01:45:10,760
Like, and so that's where those custodial solutions, which you can rely on and then follow

1978
01:45:10,760 --> 01:45:13,120
that up with more education.

1979
01:45:13,120 --> 01:45:18,440
Those are really powerful because you need to be able to say, look, this, what I'm showing

1980
01:45:18,440 --> 01:45:23,200
you works and it just worked for you right here.

1981
01:45:23,200 --> 01:45:27,680
When you hit snags and you, you know, run into all sorts of bumps in the first couple

1982
01:45:27,680 --> 01:45:30,600
of seconds of showing something, something you've like, you've lost them.

1983
01:45:30,600 --> 01:45:34,160
And then they're just, you know, okay, well, whatever this Bitcoin thing is, clearly it

1984
01:45:34,160 --> 01:45:36,400
doesn't work because I just saw it fail.

1985
01:45:36,400 --> 01:45:40,000
And then they attribute ever that's stuck in their head about Bitcoin is that Bitcoin

1986
01:45:40,000 --> 01:45:41,500
doesn't work.

1987
01:45:41,500 --> 01:45:45,000
And so that's a, it's a fine line to walk, you know?

1988
01:45:45,000 --> 01:45:49,880
I mean, you suggested something quite smart this week.

1989
01:45:49,880 --> 01:45:55,640
We did it over the weekend and it was like, what's your opinion about Bitcoin like right

1990
01:45:55,640 --> 01:45:56,640
now?

1991
01:45:56,640 --> 01:45:59,000
And then Sophie's like, you should ask them what, what do they think about Bitcoin now

1992
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:03,080
that I've just sent them some sats like instantly like via my ring or whatever.

1993
01:46:03,080 --> 01:46:07,400
And like three, three of them, I think were like, it's actually really cool, isn't it?

1994
01:46:07,400 --> 01:46:09,800
Like it works really well and it's like fast and stuff.

1995
01:46:09,800 --> 01:46:11,640
And like, what else can I do with it?

1996
01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:14,280
And you're like, yes, I've piqued your curiosity.

1997
01:46:14,280 --> 01:46:19,000
You're going to like go hopefully go home and like look into this a bit more.

1998
01:46:19,000 --> 01:46:25,240
So having that contrast as well proves hopefully that being a twat on the street is more than

1999
01:46:25,240 --> 01:46:27,240
just a silly content.

2000
01:46:27,240 --> 01:46:30,960
But it's actually maybe creating, you know, bit corners.

2001
01:46:30,960 --> 01:46:33,480
I mean, I've got people that reached out to me on my YouTube channel and were like,

2002
01:46:33,480 --> 01:46:36,880
hey, mate, I'm the guy in minute three.

2003
01:46:36,880 --> 01:46:37,880
How do I do this?

2004
01:46:37,880 --> 01:46:40,440
And I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to say his name again.

2005
01:46:40,440 --> 01:46:45,240
I'm like, go subscribe to Ben's channel.

2006
01:46:45,240 --> 01:46:46,240
It's true though.

2007
01:46:46,240 --> 01:46:47,240
Seven times.

2008
01:46:47,240 --> 01:46:48,240
Yeah, we've been talking about this.

2009
01:46:48,240 --> 01:46:51,520
This is basically an episode just about BTC sessions.

2010
01:46:51,520 --> 01:46:53,720
Well, there's no toxic muscle in here.

2011
01:46:53,720 --> 01:46:58,680
All I can hear is lovely compliments throughout the circle and it's maxillinity.

2012
01:46:58,680 --> 01:46:59,680
Yeah.

2013
01:46:59,680 --> 01:47:00,680
Yeah.

2014
01:47:00,680 --> 01:47:05,680
I think to rebrand toxic maximalism as toxic maxillinity, I think it's got a better ring

2015
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:06,680
to it, you know.

2016
01:47:06,680 --> 01:47:07,680
Yeah.

2017
01:47:07,680 --> 01:47:10,680
Well, I'll leave you guys to it because I don't want to imprint on the conversation anymore,

2018
01:47:10,680 --> 01:47:12,680
but I'll be listening in.

2019
01:47:12,680 --> 01:47:13,680
Yes, Audarity.

2020
01:47:13,680 --> 01:47:14,680
So Audarity, thanks.

2021
01:47:14,680 --> 01:47:15,680
Cheers.

2022
01:47:15,680 --> 01:47:16,680
Where are you going to be?

2023
01:47:16,680 --> 01:47:17,680
Going to get me a beer though.

2024
01:47:17,680 --> 01:47:18,680
Come on yourself.

2025
01:47:18,680 --> 01:47:19,680
Come on yourself.

2026
01:47:19,680 --> 01:47:20,680
Well, go.

2027
01:47:20,680 --> 01:47:21,680
Lovely to see you.

2028
01:47:21,680 --> 01:47:22,680
Good to see you as well.

2029
01:47:22,680 --> 01:47:23,680
Ciao.

2030
01:47:23,680 --> 01:47:24,680
Ciao, ciao.

2031
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:25,680
And cheese.

2032
01:47:25,680 --> 01:47:26,680
Go.

2033
01:47:26,680 --> 01:47:27,680
Lovely as always.

2034
01:47:27,680 --> 01:47:28,680
Yeah.

2035
01:47:28,680 --> 01:47:29,680
No.

2036
01:47:29,680 --> 01:47:30,680
Really though.

2037
01:47:30,680 --> 01:47:35,940
So I am curious, what's the, what's kind of the, from these men in the street interviews

2038
01:47:35,940 --> 01:47:40,520
and talking about hooking people in those first few seconds, what's the biggest thing

2039
01:47:40,520 --> 01:47:41,680
you run up against?

2040
01:47:41,680 --> 01:47:46,160
Like when you are trying to get you and you were for anybody who hasn't seen Joe's videos,

2041
01:47:46,160 --> 01:47:51,000
he literally goes around saying, would you like to get $5 or five pounds and he sends

2042
01:47:51,000 --> 01:47:53,800
them Bitcoin if they agree to it?

2043
01:47:53,800 --> 01:47:58,520
But what's the biggest roadblock you run into when you're having those conversations?

2044
01:47:58,520 --> 01:48:03,920
What stops people or what's the reason they give most of the time if they don't take

2045
01:48:03,920 --> 01:48:04,920
the money?

2046
01:48:04,920 --> 01:48:05,920
Hmm.

2047
01:48:05,920 --> 01:48:10,400
I mean, a lot of people just don't, will be like, I mean, I've got the most recent

2048
01:48:10,400 --> 01:48:14,360
example of Bulgaria in my head and a lot of people, I mean, it's Eastern Europe, right?

2049
01:48:14,360 --> 01:48:17,840
There's a sort of lack of, amazing, she brought the beer.

2050
01:48:17,840 --> 01:48:18,840
Cheers, Sophie.

2051
01:48:18,840 --> 01:48:19,840
Cheers, Walker.

2052
01:48:19,840 --> 01:48:20,840
Oh, cheers.

2053
01:48:20,840 --> 01:48:24,160
That was an enthusiastic cheers.

2054
01:48:24,160 --> 01:48:29,840
So a lot of them will just like head down, they'll like acknowledge you, realize that

2055
01:48:29,840 --> 01:48:34,640
you're like with a microphone and like Sophie's rolling with a camera, which I really want

2056
01:48:34,640 --> 01:48:38,720
to make super obvious too because it cannot be like hidden camera stuff.

2057
01:48:38,720 --> 01:48:39,720
Right.

2058
01:48:39,720 --> 01:48:40,720
Because then you're just going to get into trouble.

2059
01:48:40,720 --> 01:48:46,280
I mean, I don't want, there aren't laws against that in the EU as far as I'm aware,

2060
01:48:46,280 --> 01:48:50,720
but you don't want to, that's just like a quagmire, I just don't want to fall into.

2061
01:48:50,720 --> 01:48:54,560
So some people just like, launch me, smile and then fight back to smile because I look

2062
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:59,440
like a tit, you know, like I was wearing a Bedford, a bubbly hat, a big Bitcoin thing,

2063
01:48:59,440 --> 01:49:02,880
a Bottev, Plovdiv shirt with like Joe and 69 on the back.

2064
01:49:02,880 --> 01:49:05,600
And I'm sort of like jumping around a bit, like being a bit silly.

2065
01:49:05,600 --> 01:49:08,920
I mean, it's similar to what I like, I worked for a charity as a student where we'd actually

2066
01:49:08,920 --> 01:49:11,640
have to like try to get people to sign up to the charity.

2067
01:49:11,640 --> 01:49:13,440
And so you're always trying to find ways to engage with people.

2068
01:49:13,440 --> 01:49:17,320
And I sort of draw from that experience a little bit when I'm doing this.

2069
01:49:17,320 --> 01:49:20,920
But oftentimes it's, yeah, I'm too busy or running late for something, which obviously

2070
01:49:20,920 --> 01:49:23,440
I completely like respect and understand.

2071
01:49:23,440 --> 01:49:27,680
But sometimes you get the occasional person like someone today like was like, Bitcoin,

2072
01:49:27,680 --> 01:49:28,680
you bankrupted me.

2073
01:49:28,680 --> 01:49:33,680
And like walked off and I was like, you don't know how gold that comment is for this video.

2074
01:49:33,680 --> 01:49:35,320
Like that is like the intro.

2075
01:49:35,320 --> 01:49:36,320
Oh, wow.

2076
01:49:36,320 --> 01:49:37,320
Yeah.

2077
01:49:37,320 --> 01:49:38,680
Well, yeah, that's, that's pretty perfect.

2078
01:49:38,680 --> 01:49:39,680
I am curious.

2079
01:49:39,680 --> 01:49:45,000
So, I mean, I think there is a lot of hesitance from people where it's like they, again, you

2080
01:49:45,000 --> 01:49:51,800
have one bad experience with Bitcoin and maybe that was you had Bitcoin on an exchange that

2081
01:49:51,800 --> 01:49:57,440
collapsed or that was you bought Bitcoin at the top, you watched it go way down, you sold

2082
01:49:57,440 --> 01:50:03,520
it at the bottom and now you blame Bitcoin for you having less fiat than you did before.

2083
01:50:03,520 --> 01:50:04,520
Yeah.

2084
01:50:04,520 --> 01:50:09,600
I mean, a lot of people got, yeah, scarred by in those ways or they just don't know what

2085
01:50:09,600 --> 01:50:12,720
the Bitcoin thing is and he associates it with all, all those other things.

2086
01:50:12,720 --> 01:50:16,720
And so those people I would love to, you know, engage with and interact with and the fact

2087
01:50:16,720 --> 01:50:20,360
they've acknowledged me shows that there is the beginning of a connection there.

2088
01:50:20,360 --> 01:50:22,360
And so it's like, oh, you bankrupted me.

2089
01:50:22,360 --> 01:50:23,960
Well, let me reverse that right now.

2090
01:50:23,960 --> 01:50:26,040
Let me like send you a fiver.

2091
01:50:26,040 --> 01:50:31,600
But then a few of them, what were some of the good people that accepted just recently?

2092
01:50:31,600 --> 01:50:35,760
I mean, it depends where you are in the world as well.

2093
01:50:35,760 --> 01:50:40,240
If you're in a Latino country, it is just generally easier to speak to strangers.

2094
01:50:40,240 --> 01:50:45,240
I've only done this in like Latin America, Europe, UK.

2095
01:50:45,240 --> 01:50:52,000
Yeah, that's, well, when I tried to do it in Cuba, it just did not go well at all.

2096
01:50:52,000 --> 01:50:55,600
Like the police sort of got involved and I was like, oh crap.

2097
01:50:55,600 --> 01:51:00,160
So I had to like be a bit creative in the ways in which I went about it.

2098
01:51:00,160 --> 01:51:01,920
But what's the most common rejection?

2099
01:51:01,920 --> 01:51:06,320
I mean, yeah, the most common rejection is there's no walk off head down.

2100
01:51:06,320 --> 01:51:08,360
Like, I don't want to be seen on camera.

2101
01:51:08,360 --> 01:51:13,360
And then obviously running late and then the common critiques about Bitcoin.

2102
01:51:13,360 --> 01:51:17,280
Well, it was the one, it was very similar to the ones that Fidelity released in that

2103
01:51:17,280 --> 01:51:21,000
report like two weeks ago, the one that was like misconceptions about Bitcoin.

2104
01:51:21,000 --> 01:51:22,280
This went through them on its own.

2105
01:51:22,280 --> 01:51:28,440
As you can expect, you know, like environment volatility being hacked or, you know, someone

2106
01:51:28,440 --> 01:51:33,120
controls it, regulation, disinterest, all those sort of things that we're familiar

2107
01:51:33,120 --> 01:51:37,600
with and I can easily debunk those now on the street like quite quickly with someone.

2108
01:51:37,600 --> 01:51:40,560
And it's always kind of like good revision to do that.

2109
01:51:40,560 --> 01:51:41,560
Right.

2110
01:51:41,560 --> 01:51:43,960
I mean, practice makes perfect, right?

2111
01:51:43,960 --> 01:51:44,960
Yeah.

2112
01:51:44,960 --> 01:51:48,440
And, you know, it's an excuse to talk about your passion with like brand new people, which

2113
01:51:48,440 --> 01:51:51,040
is also what a lot of us do want to do.

2114
01:51:51,040 --> 01:51:55,160
Like we do, like as humans, we do just naturally open up more when we're asked about our passions

2115
01:51:55,160 --> 01:51:59,440
as opposed to like our work or like, you know, something that, you know, unless you are really

2116
01:51:59,440 --> 01:52:02,280
passionate about your work in which case all power to you.

2117
01:52:02,280 --> 01:52:04,360
But you know what I mean?

2118
01:52:04,360 --> 01:52:07,880
Like if someone does generally give you a really open-ended question and they seem curious

2119
01:52:07,880 --> 01:52:10,840
and you're talking about Bitcoin, you do tend to get a bit excited, don't you?

2120
01:52:10,840 --> 01:52:13,640
You're like, oh my God, this is going to be a great orange pill.

2121
01:52:13,640 --> 01:52:16,120
I've been waiting for this.

2122
01:52:16,120 --> 01:52:17,120
Finally.

2123
01:52:17,120 --> 01:52:18,120
Yeah.

2124
01:52:18,120 --> 01:52:24,240
No, I really do appreciate the work that you do, Joe, because showing like those videos,

2125
01:52:24,240 --> 01:52:29,800
showing especially, I think some of the conversations that maybe don't go as planned or of people

2126
01:52:29,800 --> 01:52:34,640
throwing out the very common, very kind of things that a lot of us Bitcoiners think,

2127
01:52:34,640 --> 01:52:38,120
well, why isn't this particular bit of fud put to bed?

2128
01:52:38,120 --> 01:52:39,440
You know, everyone should know this now.

2129
01:52:39,440 --> 01:52:44,160
It's like the reality is that the vast majority of the world still has no fucking idea what

2130
01:52:44,160 --> 01:52:46,160
Bitcoin is.

2131
01:52:46,160 --> 01:52:51,360
There's a very small percentage of people that have a handle on Bitcoin.

2132
01:52:51,360 --> 01:52:55,360
And I think even those that have a handle on it are constantly realizing, well, there's

2133
01:52:55,360 --> 01:52:59,000
more to this and to its potential than I even at first realized.

2134
01:52:59,000 --> 01:53:04,600
So I think those videos are also a great reminder that we need to have patience with people

2135
01:53:04,600 --> 01:53:12,280
and that the job of educating is never done because there is always, I mean, unless we're

2136
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:17,280
fast forwarding a couple hundred years in the future, you're not going to have every

2137
01:53:17,280 --> 01:53:24,360
single person on this planet understand Bitcoin as well as your random toxic maximalist on

2138
01:53:24,360 --> 01:53:25,360
Twitter.

2139
01:53:25,360 --> 01:53:27,960
And so it's like those videos are a great reminder of that.

2140
01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:30,880
But look, the average person is just going about their day.

2141
01:53:30,880 --> 01:53:35,160
Maybe they're starting to feel the pain of if they're in a Western country of inflation

2142
01:53:35,160 --> 01:53:37,080
and of the cost of living.

2143
01:53:37,080 --> 01:53:41,440
And they're starting to maybe get a little bit more curious about about money and like

2144
01:53:41,440 --> 01:53:47,420
what the fuck is money and how does this work and why is everything so fucking expensive?

2145
01:53:47,420 --> 01:53:51,040
And I think that that transition, I mean, we can thank the central bankers and the governments

2146
01:53:51,040 --> 01:53:55,720
for really starting to softball up the Bitcoin adoption.

2147
01:53:55,720 --> 01:54:01,000
Because if you start asking about why is everything getting more expensive, you start then thinking

2148
01:54:01,000 --> 01:54:04,560
about, OK, well, how does the system actually work?

2149
01:54:04,560 --> 01:54:08,400
And once you start digging into that, you start your eyes start to open and then you're

2150
01:54:08,400 --> 01:54:12,000
like, oh, fuck, this is all just completely this is a rigged system.

2151
01:54:12,000 --> 01:54:14,020
How is anyone supposed to get ahead?

2152
01:54:14,020 --> 01:54:18,600
And then you start to look for, well, OK, the system's broken.

2153
01:54:18,600 --> 01:54:21,280
What can I do to at least help myself?

2154
01:54:21,280 --> 01:54:24,800
And from that point of self interest, maybe you find Bitcoin.

2155
01:54:24,800 --> 01:54:31,800
And so I think that that's I'm hopeful and also grateful to the central bankers for completely

2156
01:54:31,800 --> 01:54:37,040
just mismanaging this entire monetary world that we live in because they're going to

2157
01:54:37,040 --> 01:54:40,640
mint a lot of new Bitcoiners.

2158
01:54:40,640 --> 01:54:44,160
So I'm glad of that.

2159
01:54:44,160 --> 01:54:46,440
One thing because I want to be conscious of your time here.

2160
01:54:46,440 --> 01:54:51,000
One thing I wanted to just kind of end on would be, do you have any advice for folks

2161
01:54:51,000 --> 01:54:57,160
that are maybe struggling to talk to their friends and family and like not even trying

2162
01:54:57,160 --> 01:54:58,840
to they're not trying to go out and do man on the street.

2163
01:54:58,840 --> 01:55:03,800
They just are maybe having difficulty convincing their friends and family about Bitcoin and

2164
01:55:03,800 --> 01:55:06,000
they're really passionate about it.

2165
01:55:06,000 --> 01:55:07,600
Do you have any advice having done now?

2166
01:55:07,600 --> 01:55:13,600
I mean, probably thousands of these conversations, I would assume on the street with random people.

2167
01:55:13,600 --> 01:55:15,000
Do you have advice for Jesus?

2168
01:55:15,000 --> 01:55:18,160
Yeah, quite a lot.

2169
01:55:18,160 --> 01:55:22,520
Do you have any advice for people who are looking to try a different approach when it

2170
01:55:22,520 --> 01:55:26,640
comes to talking to their family who just don't seem to get it no matter how much they

2171
01:55:26,640 --> 01:55:28,680
talked to them about it?

2172
01:55:28,680 --> 01:55:30,800
I don't know if I'm a good person to give advice on this.

2173
01:55:30,800 --> 01:55:33,880
I mean, like personally, I've just created separate WhatsApp groups.

2174
01:55:33,880 --> 01:55:36,760
So like, you know, there'll be like a French like so that there's a university friendship

2175
01:55:36,760 --> 01:55:38,520
friendship WhatsApp group.

2176
01:55:38,520 --> 01:55:42,680
And one of the guys just literally loads Bitcoin, won't talk about it, doesn't like it.

2177
01:55:42,680 --> 01:55:47,920
So we've just got a separate one where everyone's face in the picture is the same picture.

2178
01:55:47,920 --> 01:55:52,640
These are Bitcoins, but the one friend that doesn't like Bitcoin has a aubergine emoji

2179
01:55:52,640 --> 01:55:53,640
on his face.

2180
01:55:53,640 --> 01:56:01,320
Because like, well, that's one tactic.

2181
01:56:01,320 --> 01:56:06,360
And then yeah, I guess I'll submit you've got to respect people and respect their values

2182
01:56:06,360 --> 01:56:07,360
and where they're coming from.

2183
01:56:07,360 --> 01:56:11,920
And if someone has said no, then like, you know, two or three noses does not make a yes,

2184
01:56:11,920 --> 01:56:15,720
I want to talk about Bitcoin now, please.

2185
01:56:15,720 --> 01:56:19,160
I think, yeah, maybe it's just a question of staying humble, right?

2186
01:56:19,160 --> 01:56:24,440
The instructions are stay humble, then stack sats, not, you know, orange pill your pals,

2187
01:56:24,440 --> 01:56:26,200
then stay humble and then stack sats.

2188
01:56:26,200 --> 01:56:31,720
I wouldn't want to force it or to upset anyone's good friendships, relationships or whatever

2189
01:56:31,720 --> 01:56:34,520
with their friends or family members or co workers.

2190
01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:39,080
But I would also say that it is really, really hard if you feel like you're alone on this

2191
01:56:39,080 --> 01:56:40,080
orange pill journey.

2192
01:56:40,080 --> 01:56:45,520
Like I remember I was talking to Nathan Day recently, you know, the BT map and Nostra and

2193
01:56:45,520 --> 01:56:49,800
he's just like a brilliant mind who's doing all sorts of wonderful Bitcoin and Nostra

2194
01:56:49,800 --> 01:56:50,800
related stuff.

2195
01:56:50,800 --> 01:56:56,320
And he's saying that when he first got orange pill, he just like disappeared into his office

2196
01:56:56,320 --> 01:56:58,280
for like hours and hours and hours on end.

2197
01:56:58,280 --> 01:57:02,120
And then would like come out into the living room and just like, like exclaimed to his

2198
01:57:02,120 --> 01:57:04,600
wife and his son, like it's all a scam.

2199
01:57:04,600 --> 01:57:06,760
All this fiat shit.

2200
01:57:06,760 --> 01:57:10,040
And then we're like going back to his office again, I'm just like, reading like the Bitcoin

2201
01:57:10,040 --> 01:57:13,280
stand and then down on the podcast and like looking at the white paper and just like really

2202
01:57:13,280 --> 01:57:15,760
getting into the Bitcoin stuff.

2203
01:57:15,760 --> 01:57:19,800
And he was actually going on this orange pill journey by himself.

2204
01:57:19,800 --> 01:57:23,520
Whereas it is really nice if you do have someone to bounce ideas off.

2205
01:57:23,520 --> 01:57:27,880
So I guess a potential solution for that is to download something like orange pill app

2206
01:57:27,880 --> 01:57:28,880
full disclaimer.

2207
01:57:28,880 --> 01:57:29,880
I am an advisor to this company.

2208
01:57:29,880 --> 01:57:33,840
Now I do not get a commission if you sign up to the app, but it might be great in five

2209
01:57:33,840 --> 01:57:37,960
years or 10 years time when it becomes this amazing public unicorn company.

2210
01:57:37,960 --> 01:57:38,960
Who knows.

2211
01:57:38,960 --> 01:57:39,960
And yes, it does.

2212
01:57:39,960 --> 01:57:43,480
I'm doing my podcast and shilling job.

2213
01:57:43,480 --> 01:57:44,480
I do.

2214
01:57:44,480 --> 01:57:47,200
I mean, like it is a useful Bitcoin people, right?

2215
01:57:47,200 --> 01:57:53,960
Because we can shout on Twitter and Nostra and try to sort of project our voices.

2216
01:57:53,960 --> 01:57:56,400
And in doing that, it is actually quite therapeutic.

2217
01:57:56,400 --> 01:58:00,760
I mean, I know that, you know, Julian from Kinetic Finance, he started his channel to

2218
01:58:00,760 --> 01:58:08,040
as a sort of means of therapy and said maybe channel, by the way, wonderful channel.

2219
01:58:08,040 --> 01:58:11,320
Yeah, cancel me.

2220
01:58:11,320 --> 01:58:12,320
I've shielded.

2221
01:58:12,320 --> 01:58:13,320
I've shielded the product.

2222
01:58:13,320 --> 01:58:14,320
You're all right.

2223
01:58:14,320 --> 01:58:15,320
You're all right.

2224
01:58:15,320 --> 01:58:16,320
No, but I think that is good advice.

2225
01:58:16,320 --> 01:58:23,080
Sometimes again, especially with friends and family, you need to wait for them to be curious,

2226
01:58:23,080 --> 01:58:27,680
curious enough to start saying, and usually it happens because the price is pumping again.

2227
01:58:27,680 --> 01:58:28,760
And they're like, wait a minute.

2228
01:58:28,760 --> 01:58:30,880
So are you still into that whole Bitcoin thing?

2229
01:58:30,880 --> 01:58:32,480
And you're like, yes.

2230
01:58:32,480 --> 01:58:35,120
Yes, it still exists.

2231
01:58:35,120 --> 01:58:41,720
But no, it's not your transition from like, sort of like nine to five cubicle worker to

2232
01:58:41,720 --> 01:58:47,760
like mustachioed wearing hodl on his jumper, like Bitcoin tattoos, Bitcoin lifestyle,

2233
01:58:47,760 --> 01:58:48,760
you know, everything.

2234
01:58:48,760 --> 01:58:49,760
And like, are you still into it?

2235
01:58:49,760 --> 01:58:53,200
It's like, no.

2236
01:58:53,200 --> 01:58:55,200
Whatever gave you that idea?

2237
01:58:55,200 --> 01:59:00,640
Actually, so Walker, one really quick thing on that that is actually really important.

2238
01:59:00,640 --> 01:59:04,960
So the content I make, I try to make it so that it is shareable to Normie's precoiners,

2239
01:59:04,960 --> 01:59:06,560
crypto people or whatever.

2240
01:59:06,560 --> 01:59:09,840
And I always try to do it with my mom in mind because my mom still doesn't like, doesn't

2241
01:59:09,840 --> 01:59:12,480
understand, doesn't get this Bitcoin thing.

2242
01:59:12,480 --> 01:59:16,080
And so I'm always trying to create content with sort of her idea of, all right, will

2243
01:59:16,080 --> 01:59:17,080
it make her laugh?

2244
01:59:17,080 --> 01:59:20,560
Will she sort of relate to empathize with it or whatever?

2245
01:59:20,560 --> 01:59:26,760
Because in her mind, I've gone from like established like Bloomberg journalist to like idiot with

2246
01:59:26,760 --> 01:59:29,920
a microphone, doing street interviews, talking about magic internet money that's probably

2247
01:59:29,920 --> 01:59:30,920
a scam.

2248
01:59:30,920 --> 01:59:37,080
So yeah, that's also my way of sort of coping with it and also trying to work towards it

2249
01:59:37,080 --> 01:59:41,480
because I can share that with her and it's not like pro Bitcoin propaganda.

2250
01:59:41,480 --> 01:59:45,360
You know, it's not like a rabbit hole recap, like deep dive Bitcoin thing.

2251
01:59:45,360 --> 01:59:49,360
It's like quite lighthearted, engaging travel content, I hope with some Bitcoin in it as

2252
01:59:49,360 --> 01:59:50,360
well.

2253
01:59:50,360 --> 01:59:55,040
I know, I think that's so important to the idea of making content for people who are

2254
01:59:55,040 --> 01:59:59,520
not already in Bitcoin, because there's a lot of content for Bitcoiners.

2255
01:59:59,520 --> 02:00:06,000
And it's so important to have content that is accessible to people who are our moms or

2256
02:00:06,000 --> 02:00:08,800
you know, our friends.

2257
02:00:08,800 --> 02:00:12,400
And with that, where would you like to send people all link to your I'll put your link

2258
02:00:12,400 --> 02:00:15,200
tree and your YouTube channel and Twitter, noster in the show notes.

2259
02:00:15,200 --> 02:00:18,760
Is there anything else or the people should look out for that you have coming up in terms

2260
02:00:18,760 --> 02:00:19,760
of videos?

2261
02:00:19,760 --> 02:00:20,760
Send to the moon.

2262
02:00:20,760 --> 02:00:25,800
Send them to I mean, no, thank you so much for having on me.

2263
02:00:25,800 --> 02:00:27,400
It's been really lovely to hang out.

2264
02:00:27,400 --> 02:00:30,840
And it was nice to have a little interlude from so far as well to send my love to Carla

2265
02:00:30,840 --> 02:00:35,400
and it's fucking fantastic that you're birthing Bitcoiners in January, right?

2266
02:00:35,400 --> 02:00:37,600
Yeah, yeah, coming right up.

2267
02:00:37,600 --> 02:00:39,600
So be a Capricorn.

2268
02:00:39,600 --> 02:00:40,600
Apparently.

2269
02:00:40,600 --> 02:00:44,640
Yeah, I've been speaking to a lot of Bulgarians about star sounds recently and they were

2270
02:00:44,640 --> 02:00:46,040
all like, oh, you're such a Sagittarius.

2271
02:00:46,040 --> 02:00:49,080
I was like, how do you even know that?

2272
02:00:49,080 --> 02:00:51,640
They've read your dossier.

2273
02:00:51,640 --> 02:00:52,640
That's how.

2274
02:00:52,640 --> 02:00:55,120
Yeah, because they're part of the CIA.

2275
02:00:55,120 --> 02:00:56,120
Who isn't?

2276
02:00:56,120 --> 02:01:03,760
Yeah, but to send people, I am trying to make my YouTube channel more of these on the ground

2277
02:01:03,760 --> 02:01:05,200
Bitcoin adoption stories.

2278
02:01:05,200 --> 02:01:10,960
So the Bottev Plovdev story of my lovely mug will be there and there will be a story about

2279
02:01:10,960 --> 02:01:15,360
Ghana as I'm going there on Wednesday and there'll be all the Peru stuff on there.

2280
02:01:15,360 --> 02:01:19,920
As I want to, I know that I've sort of made it like a small niche name for myself as this

2281
02:01:19,920 --> 02:01:20,920
man on the street guy.

2282
02:01:20,920 --> 02:01:25,360
But I want to also show that like, hey, I can do this kind of stuff as well.

2283
02:01:25,360 --> 02:01:29,480
And I don't want to like put myself in a box because that is really fun and entertaining.

2284
02:01:29,480 --> 02:01:32,960
But ultimately, I want to tell these really cool like Bitcoin stories from around the

2285
02:01:32,960 --> 02:01:37,200
world and use the skills I have in doing that.

2286
02:01:37,200 --> 02:01:40,720
So yeah, subscribe, like whatever else.

2287
02:01:40,720 --> 02:01:45,040
I'll link it all and to anyone out there listening, Joe Nakamoto can do it all.

2288
02:01:45,040 --> 02:01:47,040
You heard it here first.

2289
02:01:47,040 --> 02:01:49,640
Well, Swirlybop 3000.

2290
02:01:49,640 --> 02:01:51,040
What was that again?

2291
02:01:51,040 --> 02:01:52,040
Swirlybop 3000.

2292
02:01:52,040 --> 02:01:58,920
Well, Joe, I really appreciate you sharing your time with me because, you know, while

2293
02:01:58,920 --> 02:02:01,600
Bitcoin is scarce, Bitcoin podcasts are abundant.

2294
02:02:01,600 --> 02:02:04,360
So thank you for coming on this one and hanging out.

2295
02:02:04,360 --> 02:02:05,720
This has been a blast.

2296
02:02:05,720 --> 02:02:08,800
I hope that now it's getting a bit late for you over there.

2297
02:02:08,800 --> 02:02:12,960
So hope you can get some shut eye and get back out there.

2298
02:02:12,960 --> 02:02:16,400
Good luck on your travels and thanks so much for joining us.

2299
02:02:16,400 --> 02:02:17,400
Thank you, Walker.

2300
02:02:17,400 --> 02:02:19,120
And yeah, that line is wonderful.

2301
02:02:19,120 --> 02:02:21,680
It got a cheeky smile at Peter last time, didn't it as well?

2302
02:02:21,680 --> 02:02:22,680
It sure did.

2303
02:02:22,680 --> 02:02:24,680
That's how I know it's working.

2304
02:02:24,680 --> 02:02:25,680
Yeah, great.

2305
02:02:25,680 --> 02:02:27,680
Thank you so much, mate.

2306
02:02:27,680 --> 02:02:34,640
Is the end there?

2307
02:02:34,640 --> 02:02:39,560
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast.

2308
02:02:39,560 --> 02:02:44,920
If you are a Bitcoin only company interested in sponsoring another fucking Bitcoin podcast,

2309
02:02:44,920 --> 02:02:48,920
head to Bitcoinpodcast.net or hit me up on social media.

2310
02:02:48,920 --> 02:02:54,920
On Noster, head to primal.net slash Walker and on Twitter, search for at Walker America

2311
02:02:54,920 --> 02:02:57,320
or at TITCoin podcast.

2312
02:02:57,320 --> 02:03:03,040
You can also watch the video version of this show on X or on YouTube by going to youtube.com

2313
02:03:03,040 --> 02:03:08,680
slash at Walker America or rumble by searching for at Walker America.

2314
02:03:08,680 --> 02:03:09,680
Bitcoin is scarce.

2315
02:03:09,680 --> 02:03:15,240
There will only ever be 21 million, but Bitcoin podcasts are abundant.

2316
02:03:15,240 --> 02:03:21,400
So thank you for spending your scarce time to listen to another fucking Bitcoin podcast.

2317
02:03:21,400 --> 02:03:47,360
Until next time, stay free.