I believe we probably waste 90 or 95% of the energy out there because we live in a Seattle
society.
We produce shit we don't need.
We do it slower, more stupid, more retarded, more backwards than we otherwise would had
we had a monetary system that we could measure all of this stuff accurately with.
We're literally like blind men trying to build a house and not only like trying to build
a house being blind but we're using an elastic tape measure.
And we're wondering why everything is like all wonky and fucking nothing's holding together.
Bitcoin is like eyesight with a tape measure that works.
And as a result, you actually get a house.
We don't get fucking shacks.
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.
My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin Podcast.
The Bitcoin Blockight is 821333 and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.
Today's episode is Bitcoin Talk where I talk with my guest about Bitcoin and many other
things as well.
Today, that guest is Alex Svedski.
He's an author, speaker, and an entrepreneur.
He coauthored a fantastic book with Mark Moss called The Uncommunist Manifesto.
It's a rebuttal to Marx and Engels, the Communist Manifesto.
I'll read both of them together in an episode of Bitcoin Loud on an upcoming show.
Svedski is also building Spirit of Satoshi, a Bitcoin-centric AI, and he's the publisher
of The Bitcoin Times, not to be confused with BTC Times.
Svedski and I dig into a bunch of topics, but our conversation centers around communism,
capitalism, Bitcoin, and energy.
We unpack some of the misconceptions people have about both communism and capitalism,
and talk about how we can reframe these discussions.
We also dig into how much communism has already infected our world, even here in the supposedly
capitalist United States of America.
As always, you can watch the video version of this episode on Rumble, YouTube, or X by
searching at Walker America, or listen on Fountain or wherever you get your podcasts
by searching for The Bitcoin Podcast.
If you listen to The Bitcoin Podcast on Fountain, consider giving the show a boost or creating
a clip of something you found interesting.
If you haven't checked out Fountain yet, I highly recommend it.
You can send Bitcoin to your favorite podcasters and earn Bitcoin just for listening to this
show.
And if you are a Bitcoin-only company interested in sponsoring another fucking Bitcoin podcast,
hit me up on social media or on BitcoinPodcast.net.
Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk with Alex Svetsky.
And then, glad we were able to get this on the books, because I've been wanting to have
a chat with you and just pick your brain for a while.
You and I always get into some interesting topics when we're chatting at conferences.
And now that I have another fucking Bitcoin podcast, what better place to have another
one of those chats since we're a ways apart now.
But figure we can get into a couple of different topics today.
I definitely want to pick your brain a bit about, let's call it the state of the state
as it relates to kind of harkening back to some of the really shitty communist ideas
that were put out in the last couple hundred years and how we see some of those infecting
the political machines and the minds of those who are less inclined to independent thought,
we see it infecting them today.
But then also, you'd sent me some stuff from the upcoming episode or upcoming edition, excuse
me, of the Bitcoin Times and really enjoyed those reads.
I know, has it been released yet or it's not fully released?
Yeah, pre-release.
Okay.
So, we can go into it as much as you want without giving away too many of the goods, because
I would recommend that folks read that as well.
And then I actually, I went back today and I reread your piece, Fire, Bitcoin, Teleportation.
Oh, the classic.
Yeah, because you mentioned it in the recent one you sent me and I read it some time ago
now, but I thought, let me go back and let me revisit that with a different lens.
And so that was, I think, it's honestly still a really great primer on how or let's not
say how, let's say ways you can think about Bitcoin in terms of its larger scale impact.
Not just, you know, okay, it's this technology, it's this money, but what does that actually
mean in the grand scheme of things for us on this little speck of rock floating around
in the universe?
Like, how does that, what difference does that actually make?
So I figure we'll dig into some of that.
There's also plenty of, plenty of, let's say, current events we can dig into.
I just saw a fucking Ray Dalio today at the climate conference.
Oh, good.
Made some hilarious statements about, basically, we're living in a world that doesn't have
enough money.
And that's the problem is that there's not enough money and the money's too expensive
now because of interest rates.
And I just found that to be such an absurd statement and maybe a good jumping off point
for some other discussions.
But yeah.
I mean, to pull on that thread, if you want to jump there, like, let's, let's jump anywhere.
Let's um, I mean, have you ever seen the argument that Alan Watts makes about like money and
inches?
Yes.
Yeah.
You know, it was like, okay, you know, having not enough money is kind of like, you know,
running out of inches.
It's like, you don't, you don't just run out of inches, you know, like you just keep building.
It's not like something happens all of a sudden, you know, the animal spirits and like now
we can't build anything or produce anything or do it all that.
Like it's, yeah, it's, it's maddening.
You know, the, the Ray Dalios of the world are interesting characters, man.
Like someone recommended me principles the other day, which is, you know, I read the
book when it first came out, it was interesting.
Um, but like, I've not, I just can't take these people seriously anymore, whether it's
Dalio, whether it's the Talibs of the world and stuff like that, it's just like mind-bogglingly,
like insane when they, when they blurt out shit like that.
It's like guys who, who almost are there and are obviously, let's say very intelligent
in their own right, have impressive careers behind them in one realm or another.
But there's a piece of the puzzle that's very obviously missing.
It's a blind spot, you might say.
And I think Dalio has at least been a bit more favorable towards Bitcoin than let's say,
you know, Naseem, but still one would think if he really got it, he would be at the climate
conference saying things like, you know, okay, if we want to quote, save the planet, let's
we'll talk in their terms, if we want to fight the climate crisis and do so profitably.
Well literally the only way you're going to do that and make these projects that you're
proposing be in any way profitable is by incorporating Bitcoin mining.
Like that's, that's the only way you're doing it.
It's not happening otherwise.
Because that wasn't his, his larger point was about profitability.
So basically saying that because the cost of capital is so high right now, you know,
they're borrowing it six, seven, eight percent or more.
Okay, nobody's going to finance these projects.
And he's saying it's going to be five to $10 trillion a year that's required to finance
it and the global GDP is, you know, a hundred trillion or whatever.
And basically he's saying there's just, there's just not enough money and the money that's
out there isn't going to fund these projects because they're not going to be profitable.
So he's right about part of it in that the money that's, you know, a smart money is not
going to fund losing projects.
The only way they're getting funded is with government subsidies and printing money.
But to say that there's not enough money out there, the world doesn't have enough money
is just, it's such an absurd premise to operate from.
Yeah.
When, when he, when he released principles, I actually wrote a, an essay that was like
a kind of like brain loves open letter to him, but just not, not as long.
And it kind of broke down some of this stuff, right?
And Daly reminds me of a guy like, you know, if you're watching a movie and you see sort
of like the main character, and I'm going to like make an analogy is not accurate, but
it's like the main character is like opening these doors and like, you know, there's one
door and you know that like the exit is that door.
And he's just like continually opening every single fucking door other than like the one
that is like, and you're kind of like watching and you're like, dude, it's like, yeah, like
it's, it's the middle fucking door.
Just open that one and he keeps opening every single other one and he's like, yep, there's
no solution.
The price of money is too much.
We can't finance the debt, blah, blah, blah.
So, you know, the, the, the entire argument actually of my essay that I wrote back then
knows a couple of years ago now was Daly is always talking about paradigm shifts and he
is entrenched in the current paradigm and cannot interpret the world through something
as paradigmatically different as Bitcoin because that's, that's people's biggest, biggest hurdle,
I think when it comes to Bitcoin.
And you know, there's another essay that I want to publish over the next couple of months
when I get a chance to finish writing it is called the incompatible worlds theory.
And the premise of that, as you can probably tell by the title is that, you know, Bitcoin
in the current world are just incompatible.
So like you can imagine Bitcoin as this other realm and I like you, you, you pastoral portal
and your somewhere else.
And in this other realm, you know, there's a, you know, gravity goes the other way, time
goes the other way, like all this sort of stuff.
In fact, we should probably say like gravity goes the right way, time goes the right way,
etc.
Like these things function a particular way there.
And just the, the, the principles that underlie how everything functions in that world just
don't exist in the current world that we're in, in the current world that we're in, you
know, we like the money works as accounts and messages that like, you know, get sent
amongst, you know, whoever is running these centralized ledges.
And you know, they agree on the balances on these ledges in the Bitcoin.
Well, money is not accounts based.
It's, you know, it's UTXO sets and it's digital signatures that imply ownership.
Like it's a completely different paradigm.
And you know, in this paradigm, money is something that is created and issued by governments
over there.
Money is a fixed constant that is divisible and that is issued programmatically.
Like everything is paradigmatically different.
And this is, this is where I, you know, try and, I mean, I'm, you know, been called a
Bitcoin boomer because I believe Bitcoin is going to take a lot longer to reach mass
adoption than people think.
I think it's genuinely going to take, you know, between 50 to 100 years.
I don't believe in any of this short term Bitcoin's going to take over everything.
And I say that because Bitcoin is so, so much of a shift, so much of a change, it's
not a technological shift.
It's not a just purely economic shift.
It's not a social shift.
It's like, it's all of these things in one, right?
It's a socio economic, political, philosophical, technological paradigm shift.
It's all of these things.
So, so you can't, you can't project an iPhone adoption curve on it.
You can't project an internet adoption curve on it.
You can't project an e-commerce adoption curve on it or an AI adoption curve or whatever
any other fucking adoption curve you can think of.
This is, this encompasses everything, which means it's going to take multiple generations
to embed itself and for the culture to fundamentally transform.
And you know, human beings biggest weak spot is in understanding a paradigm that they're
not currently in.
And that is infinitely harder when you are someone who has profited so much from the
current paradigm.
And I think that's, and that's not to say profiting is bad, right?
But it's like, I mean that in the, in the, in the literal sense of the term, he has,
you know, he has profited his life, his, you know, his money, his brand, his message,
his persona, his legacy and everything like that is well entrenched in the current paradigm
to, to, to disparage 65 years of work, however old he is for this new paradigm will require
that he burns down a lot of that identity.
And you know, one can argue it's not going to happen maybe until, you know, he's on his
last couple of legs and then he's fine with just saying, oh, fuck it, I'll just say the
truth.
So, so anyway, that's what I think we're contending with here.
No, I think that's a, it's an excellent point because it's, it's so hard.
And this is something Jeff Booth has talked about a lot that the big blind spot for a
lot of these people is just that again, they're, they're trying to, if we go back to the measuring
stick analogy, you know, they're, they're trying to, they're trying to measure the
new system using a completely different yardstick, one that is based on this really kind of fake
and immaterial and completely contrived system of money that truly only works for a select
few people and is just opaque in terms of its operation.
And it's this ridiculous system.
It's almost comically absurd because if you were trying to devise, okay, what's the, what's
the best way I could think of to absolutely fuck over the majority of the population in
perpetuity?
You would probably come up with something that looks like fiat money.
You would probably come up with something that if you were in that upper echelon that
you would accomplish something that basically closely resembles fiat.
Okay.
Allow me to keep inflating my own wealth while decreasing the purchasing power of those
below me so that we keep getting farther and farther apart.
And I always have scapegoats to blame the negative effects of this on.
So it's, it's, I mean, it's a beautifully designed system.
If you're one of the people who enjoys the benefits of stealing the time and energy of
others, but it's a terrible system.
If you're the majority of people who want to be able to lift themselves up through the,
you know, through their hard work and their intelligence and their creativity.
So let me, let me give a interesting contrarian viewpoint.
Okay.
Which I must do.
It's, I agree with principle.
I think what's different, where my, where my viewpoint will deviate slightly is that
I don't think it's traditionally the people that were on top that devised fiat.
I believe it was the, so if you look at feudal civilization, feudal society, you had sort
of the monarchs, the kings and queens, you know, you had the aristocracy, you had the,
you know, the artisans, you had the peasants and more often than not, and this was probably
more, more so in Japanese culture, but it was also in Western culture was, you had the
merchants were generally below the, the peasants.
Now there was a differentiation also between merchants and traders or the money changes.
And it was usually, you know, the money changer kind that was the, that rung, they were despised
by people.
Um, the, you know, the ones who didn't produce anything, you know, merchants sound ways to
elevate themselves.
So like, you know, the Medici and everything like that, they were aristocratic, but they
were merchant aristocratic.
Um, whereas the money changers who didn't produce anything, they were the ones who sought to
find ways to produce something out of nothing like ex-nee hello, right?
And so, so not, not create something, not sell something, but just like in the exchange
do something.
Um, now what I believe has happened in the fiat world is we had the rise of the trader
archetype, um, who in their spite of all that was greater and more beautiful than them,
uh, figured out a way.
And I don't mean this as it was all entirely intentional, but there was obviously some sort
of intent here and like, uh, elevating themselves at the expense of everybody else.
Because once again, in a, in a trader scenario, you are making some sort of arbitrage without
actually adding any value, right?
Um, that's not always the case.
Obviously speculators suck things up, et cetera, et cetera.
And I'm sure there's going to be some fucking free market argument here.
I get it.
I'm not that fucking stupid.
I've been there.
Um, but what, what I'm trying to explain is the, the archetype here is this kind of
person who is the, you know, the, the modern day Rothschild, for example, uh, devised a
way to win at the game by cheating.
And that's essentially what fiat money is.
Fiat money is a mechanism of not winning because you are aristocratic, not winning because
you're the best, not winning because you are better, winning because you cheat, right?
So it is the boxer that gets in the ring and ensures that his opponent's water has
been, you know, spiked with some sort of drug or, you know, is his opponent has sand in
his face or something like that.
He wins not because he was a better fighter, but he wins because he cheated.
And that is like the big thing that people need to understand with what Bitcoin does.
Bitcoin is not going to elevate the masses.
Bitcoin is going to elevate the best of us.
And that means it's not going to be some sort of equalization where it's all fucking kumbaya
and happy and all this sort of stuff.
It's I think going to bring back more aristocracy than it is helping the plebeians or the, or
the, well, the so-called, you know, peasant class because what it takes for somebody
to raise themselves up is a desire for greatness, a, you know, a desire for excellence, the,
you know, the ability to take on responsibility, courage, honor, respect, loyalty, like all
of these virtues, which in terms of the mass population are actually quite rare.
It's very rare to have people who don't all of those.
That's why the warrior class, for example, in all great cultures was a small percentage
of the entire social structure.
It was always the case.
Like so the cream rises to the top.
And we, we, I think in the Bitcoin space, we get lost with, you know, all of our various
and numerous kind of like ideas is that, you know, we think it's all like, I saw a tweet
the other day.
It's like, oh, you know, the, the spider like is smaller than the lion, but a bunch of spiders
together can, you know, kill a lion or something like that.
And I was like, that's such a pathetic thing to say because like the lion is this beautiful
majestic creature.
And it's like, you literally made an argument for the bugs.
Like you literally made an argument for communism.
Like, it's a disgusting thing.
It's like, okay, the bugs fucking brought down this majestic creature.
No, it's fucking, that's, that's disgusting.
That is literally what that is.
That is the energy of communism.
That is what communism tried to do.
It told all of the peasants and all of the people who didn't work for it, hey, it is
your right, your entitlement to claim that which is not yours.
And communism, like I got asked a month ago, and I've refined my thinking on this.
The opposite to communism is not capitalism.
I disavowed this claim.
I said that in the Uncommunist Manifesto, I believe the opposite to communism is beauty.
Fundamentally, beauty, beauty is the highest of all things.
Beauty is God, beauty is nature, beauty is that which is fit, which, that which fits,
that which is perfect, et cetera.
It is, it is the thing that we're always aiming at.
That is the thing that life reaches for.
And when you look at these ideals, like communism, like majoritarianism of any kind, equalitarianism
of any kind, they all seek to destroy beauty, to bring down to their level.
And what you have with Seat Money is an engine that basically steals from the blind, and
the blind are too stupid to understand who, you know, who, who's stealing from them.
And then it creates an opportunity to blame the actual productive class, the aristocratic
class, the functional class, you know, who I would have called in the past the remnant,
right?
That group of people, and it's their fault.
They're the ones who should be blamed.
Like I saw a, you know, a thread yesterday, I opened up my fucking Instagram for some
strange reason, and, you know, there was a thread in there, and it was this lady saying,
you know, I'm not saying we should bring out the pitchforks just yet, but Jeff Bezos is,
you know, building clocks in the whatever, you know, and here we are, you know, not enough
food.
It's like, it's literally like she's being stolen from by the parasitic class.
And she's blaming the productive class.
It's the same fucking game.
And this is what I mean when I said at the outset, it's the traitor archetype trying
to bring down the greatness, the excellence archetype, trying to bring down the musks
and the Bezos and all that out of the world.
So I'll shut up there for a moment.
I think that nuance is very important.
It's not about, yeah, it's not about saving the masses because the masses are too hard
to fucking save.
It is about building a better fucking game so that the best can get better.
And then they naturally fucking raise the tide and it gets better for all the fucking
dumbasses who don't know how to make it better anyway.
No, I appreciate the clarification because I should have been more precise with my language
because I will agree with you that it's not like the simple act of changing the rules
automatically gives everyone the ability to raise themselves up.
What it does do is create a rule with or excuse me, a game with fair rules with rules that
are known by all participants should they choose to learn them, but they are at least
knowable.
The rules are knowable.
And for those that have the desire and the vitality, the energy to pull themselves up
to rise to the top, it enables that to happen in greater numbers and more rapidly than it
does in a system that is predicated on theft.
So I agree with the clarification there and I saw that fucking thread.
I think somebody posted a screenshot on Twitter and yeah, he, uh, Bezos built like a large
like clock in a mountain somewhere and that she was really pissed about it.
And but it's just, it's absurd because you complain about, you know, Bezos spending
whatever $40 million of his own money for providing you, by the way, he earned that
by providing Amazon, which guarantee you use to, you know, you use to order the laptop
that you're, you know, tweeting off of you.
Yeah.
You use to order half the fucking things in your house.
He created an insanely valuable business and genuinely useful business that brings us a
level of convenience we couldn't even have dreamed about before.
And you're mad at him spending however many million to create something that he finds
beautiful and likely others do too.
I haven't seen it.
I'll have to look up at the pictures.
I'm sure it's, it's probably pretty fucking cool.
Yeah.
But you're mad at him, the productive person, massively productive.
Instead of being mad at the fucking governments shoveling hundreds of billions of dollars overseas
through various, you know, shell NGOs and then right back to the military industrial complex,
meanwhile, they're still, you know, stealing from you every fucking year more and more
by devaluing your money.
But no, no, no, you're mad at the guy who has actually made your life better in a decade
than the government has in a hundred, 200 years.
Like it's just, it's absurd.
And it's, it's a lack of any sort of like grounding in reality, I think, where you truly
do not have the ability.
And I feel sad for people like this, but you know what?
It's, it's somewhat, well, I believe in personal responsibility.
So I think if you are too fucking lazy to go out and find the answer for yourself and
to dig a little bit deeper, that's on you.
Granted, it's, it's difficult today because we are so inundated with information.
There is so much fucking noise out there that it's difficult for most people to sift through
that, but to just be a person who operates with all of their quote, thoughts and opinions,
simply being party slogans, because that's all they are.
You're not saying anything that hasn't been already given to you, fed to you on a silver
platter by the party.
And I use the party in a generalist sense.
And it's just, it's sad to see that kind of person is never going to lift themselves
up no matter what the rules of the game are.
In fact, they may not like the system that is to come because it is more radically transparent.
And it is more merit based.
And you can't just complain your way to relevance and have somebody give you a fucking cookie
and an award.
It doesn't work that way.
Yeah.
This, this honestly, what you just said there is the micro state for next year is, and it's
like there's a, there's a whole section dedicated to it in the Bushido of Bitcoin is my crusade
to sort of make it clear that, you know, in Bitcoin is going to do more damage quote
unquote, to, to, you know, people's psyche and all that sort of stuff in the, in the
short to medium term, then it is, you know, then what people think, like the people think
it's just going to magically fucking fix everything.
I don't know, it's, there's going to be exacerbated inequalities.
There's going to be all of this, like the, you know, and I, this, I believe it's in the
five Bitcoin teleportation when I talk about the interregnum, right?
Like sort of before Bitcoin, after Bitcoin and sort of that, you know, the, the, the
time when those two periods clash is going to be where neither rulebook fits.
And like you've got, it's going to be chaos for the next couple generations.
But if we can kind of cold turkey our way through it, and I mean, the analogy is so perfect.
It's, you know, you get somebody who's a heroin junkie.
I mean, getting off the fucking heroin is hell.
And but that they, like if they relapse, they're just going to remain a heroin junkie.
So you actually have to go through hell and come out the other end.
And that, that is like exactly what civilization has to go through.
And we're seeing the early signs of this shit, man.
I mean, like, you know, Millet is obviously an incredible example of, you know, that kind
of energy sprouting up.
And you're seeing it in Amsterdam.
I mean, you know, if McGregor is taking seriously the, you know, the, the, the takeover of fucking
Ireland, making King fuck.
Yes.
Like, you know, Musk is doing his job with, with Twitter.
It's like, there's, you know, there's, there's a palpable shift in the energy that is, that
is coming out of this stuff.
And, and anyway, it's, it's like, it's very interesting timeline to be a part of.
But you know, one thing we can't sort of take for granted is that it's, it's going to be
messy.
And the, the parasites capacity to inflame and infuriate the masses is where the greatest
danger is going to come from.
Because a couple parasites, you know, like, you know, Rothschild with his little fucking
golden cane isn't going to, you know, come and pick up a gun and shoot us.
Right.
And then, you know, like the fucking hordes of Luddites, they're the ones who are going
to blame the Bitcoiners for the rain and the sunshine and the fact that they can't drive
cars anymore.
And you know, gasoline is too expensive and everything like that.
Like I can't fucking eat.
It's the Bitcoin's fault.
It's your fucking fault.
And that's what we've got to prep ourselves.
And honestly, it's a, I think that's a very real concern that maybe, because you're right,
where things don't just change like that.
We don't just go from the entrenched system to something new and on the road to beautiful
overnight.
It's going to be a long and painful journey, likely with many, many, uh, state, you know,
currency collapses that lead to nation state collapses and a massive shift of power in
an already growing multipolar world.
And I think that it's very easy and very tempting as a Bitcoin or to look and say, ah, yes, one
day everyone's going to wake up and realize we Bitcoiners were right and we're such geniuses
and they're going to pat us in the back for it and give us a good old boy.
And then they'll, you know, everything will be fine and there won't be any hard feelings
and you know, la-dee-da, but it's just not the case.
Humans have a massive propensity for jealousy and that is easy to inflame if you know the
right buttons to push and we see this all the time.
I mean, and that's really what, that's really what Marx and Engels tried to do with the
Communist manifesto.
And I think that's kind of a little bit of a good segue there because I'd love to pick
your brain on it a little for everyone's context.
And maybe, maybe we actually let's, let's pause for a second and because I usually like
to start these things out with, with a question.
And we got right into ripping quickly as we often do, which is fantastic.
But I want to start out just to set the stage for you a little, you know, your bio is that,
you know, your author, speaker, entrepreneur, you're, you're building a Bitcoin centric
AI.
You also, you wrote a book that I think everyone should read after they read the Communist
manifesto and that is the uncommunist manifesto.
You wrote that with Mark Moss.
Fantastic read.
I've read it a few times.
And I'd love to start out though with the question of who is Alex Fedtsky?
How did he get here today?
What brought you, what brought you here where you are now in this world?
Okay, that's a tough question.
I know it is.
I mean, yeah, as you said, I kind of publicly defined myself as some entrepreneur or the
kind of thing.
I think Alex Fedtsky is an ambitious man, someone who thinks that if you're going to
live life, you should build, you should create, you should push the envelope.
And you know, life isn't so much about the number of years you've lived, but the amount
of, the amount of flame that came off you along the process.
So like what I mean by that is, you know, the people like Alexander the Great, who,
you know, Napoleon or Christ, you know, all who lived, I'm sorry, well, Napoleon lived
a little bit longer, but you know, Alexander the Great and Christ, who I think are the
two most powerful characters in the history of humanity, both lived about 33 years.
Like they did more in that period than everybody else combined did in their entire lifetimes
combined.
And I think if you're going to live and you're going to be alive, it is your duty in some
capacity to know we're all not going to be as great as Christ and Alexander.
You know, that's the, that's the bar, you know, that is the, that is the apex.
But it is our duty individually to burn as fucking bright as we can during the time we
have and then to mature along the way and pass that on.
So to bring that back to Louis Fetski is, you know, is a person who's trying to do that
in some capacity, who makes mistakes, who then gets the fuck up, tries again, and will continue
doing that till the day does.
I like that.
See, I like asking that question because everybody takes it differently.
And I think it's a, it's a very telling one.
So I appreciate that answer.
And I think that that's also something that we've lost.
I shouldn't say we've lost.
I mean, we as the collective have lost as a species that desire to strive for greatness.
And that greatness can take many forms, right?
That that greatness, you know, as you said, not everybody's going to be the Alexander the
Great.
Very obviously, no, he is the Alexander the Great.
We can all try to become whatever the version of ourselves is that reaches for that.
And the way I take that is just, you know, and it sounds like some fucking cliched self-help
shit, but like becoming the best version of yourself, the apex of yourself, which I am
also someone who is constantly making mistakes and doing my best to get back up and to learn
from those mistakes and to try and go into my next opportunity to make a mistake or to
succeed with more information than I had the first time.
Because that's the I think actually what's in my head from that is that Buckminster Fuller
short clip that you had in your Bitcoin fire and teleportation where he talks about, you
know, after every experiment, you always know more, you can't know less.
But what you do with that increased information is really up to you.
And I think so many people would rather shift blame, shift responsibility and shift the
impetus for action onto somebody else rather than themselves, because that's more comfortable,
right?
That's easier.
Let me just stay in my pod.
Let me keep putting, you know, one foot in front of the other, moving in whatever direction
I am, I don't care.
But yeah, that's that.
Now I want to, I wanted to get your background so I didn't forget it and hear who you are.
And I appreciate that.
What I'd like to dive into a little bit, let's get back to communism, because I think that
it is such a, you can see a lot of fucking idiots on social media who really like the
fucking neo Marxists who think that, wow, Karl Marx, what a fucking genius.
This guy was brilliant.
Oh my good.
How did he think of these incredible things?
Yes, he's he's he is my Messiah.
And this guy was a fucking loser.
Like he was literally a bum.
He was literally a fucking loser who mooched off of his bourgeoisie.
If we're using his words, his bourgeoisie, wealthy friend, angles and wrote this fucking,
I've got, I've got it sitting right here on the old desk, the fucking communist manifesto.
Well, it's okay, because I've got it right next to it.
I've got the uncommunist manifesto.
So at least, you know, it's it's it's evening out and then some.
But but I think what what most people know about the communist manifesto, if they know
nothing else, hopefully they at least know that if you in Marx's own words, if you're
going to sum up communism in one phrase, it's the abolition of private property.
He himself says this in the manifesto, that much is clear.
If if you don't know that already, you should definitely read the communist manifesto.
I think I'll do an episode where I read one after another.
So I'll read the communist than the uncommunist, let people form their own conclusions, because
if you have half a fucking brain, that shouldn't be too hard.
But I think what a lot of people miss about the communist manifesto is that it's really
a bit of a blueprint for what we see right now.
And we can even see this in a Western country like the United States, which is supposed
to be, you know, something something better.
But you know, one of the things the the second measure that he puts out there after abolition
of private property is a progressive income tax.
That's the number two thing he puts out there.
Number three, abolition of all rights of inheritance, like those three right there, get rid of private
property, make a progressive income tax to try and quote, even the playing field and
make things more equal, you know, quality and equity, and then get rid of any inheritance
so that there's no incentive for you to to procreate to create a family and to leave
something to leave a legacy for your heirs who can then build upon it.
There's like seven more there, but though we can start with those first three and realize
what we already see that happening to high degrees in quote, Western countries around
the world.
So I'd love to get your thoughts as a starting point on what do you think?
What do you think people miss when it comes to the communist manifesto?
Maybe what brought you and Mark to that point where you decided we need we need to write
a rebuttal to this because people just don't get it.
Yeah, I mean, what brought us to it was just a joke actually six months prior to writing
it was Mark and I were sitting in El Salvador actually just before the Bitcoin legal tender
became that came into effect.
It was in July or something like that.
First trip there and you know, we were just having lunch actually.
And Tiaschi, you're the communist manifesto.
I was like, fuck what I do that.
And he said, it's so bad and I was like, I'm sure it is.
I said, I want to give myself brain cancer.
I think I'll, you know, avoid reading it.
And you know, he kind of just said as a personal comment is like someone should write a rebuttal
to that, you know, like something that, you know, because it's like a really widely read
book and I'm like, maybe we should do it one day.
And we kind of like just left it there.
It wasn't until about six months later that I landed in Texas.
Had some changes in my own personal life with, with work and some, you know, disagreements
I had with regulators, shall we say.
And I was like, Mark, we've got some time on my hands and let's write this fucking thing.
So we locked ourselves in a room and wrote it basically within a week.
And then I sort of spent like a month editing it and just like building up the definitions
and you know, giving it some structure and some flow.
I think I honestly hadn't even read the Communist manifesto until two weeks before we went to
read it.
And I just remember like viscerally, like just getting angry reading the book.
Like I'd read it.
I'm like, fuck is this guy talking about like, and it just like, you know, paragraph after
paragraph was just this like, you could just, you could, you know, these days we mean about
cope, right?
Like this was like the, the, the ultimate cope on the planet.
Like the guy is just like, as he said, loser, cope, angry people, people he doesn't know,
just like fucking braiding their existence because it's just such a pathetic turd.
And you know, he's, he's literal like solutions to how to fix the world are the things that
like, I don't care if you want to put it in a, in a, you know, sort of Bitcoin or strength
economics framework, like destroy time preference, right?
So it's like, if you want to destroy time preference, you penalize anything that involves
a low time preference.
Okay.
So that's what he does with all of his fucking mandate.
If you take it from an angle of like, you know, beauty and ugliness, all right?
Well, he wants to anything that is beautiful, Nietzsche talks about this, you know, Nietzsche's
some of his like, you know, I've gone down the Nietzsche rabbit hole this year, basically,
and I wish I'd gone through it earlier because I think my, the uncommon is manifested would
be even stronger than it was, but irrespective Nietzsche talked about resentment being the
thing that poisoned Western civilization.
And that as the, the underlying, the underlying cancer and resentment stems from Andy, essentially.
And you know, you just sense that in there.
And so the reason I was mentioning Nietzsche, he, he talks about when we think of beauty,
beauty is the thing that requires the most sacrifice, because like beauty and human beings
requires breeding.
No one wants to talk about this shit because they call you Genesis straight away.
But like, if you want to create beautiful kids, you need to be fucking selective about
who you breed with.
We do it with fucking animals.
Humans are the same thing.
That's like, it's what we do.
You want to pass on, you know, the best that you can from a genetic standpoint and you
want to, you know, continue that beauty is something that takes fucking time.
You want to build a cathedral that's going to take 300 years.
You need to build something that's going to, that you are not going to see for yourself.
Like the Medici family did what they did in Milan, sorry, not Milan in Florence.
They, they, they did something that took time.
So, so like, whether you see it through a beauty standpoint, Austrian economics, whatever,
like any of these competing philosophies or models of the world, what you see bleeding
through Marx's writing is straight up cope, envy, seething, resentment, ugliness, and
an attempt to bring everything that is better than he is, that is more beautiful than he
is, that is more righteous, more structural, more functional, more productive than he is,
bring it all fucking down.
And like, you know, I've got some, you know, radical takes, particularly on taxation, right?
Like, I've become a little bit more of a statist, I must admit, so it's all my libertarian
friends.
Like I have come to believe that, you know, people like Bukele and everything like that,
the flavor of statist that you want, because all territories require leadership.
So I don't believe in statism through the paradigm of like, for example, democracy and
all that garbage, but I believe in like the philosopher king version of territorial management,
which Bukele is a great example, Millet might be an even greater example, etc.
But, you know, if within a territory, you are going to have some sort of membership,
so like, I will say here that my 10 year plan is to take over Macedonia and run it as like
as a country as a service, okay, you'll have a membership, you know, all this residency,
citizenship, bullshit out the fucking window, you just pay a membership and you'll get
this prescribed set of services for the ability to live there.
But if we just talk about, you know, having access to a territory, and if we want to call
that membership taxation, well, it would make sense to have a higher tax bracket for the
lower earners and a lower tax bracket for the higher earners, because that will incentivize
people to earn more.
To get what you incentivize, you get less of what you penalize.
So just that second one, you know, is a way to turn everybody into a non producer, right?
So this is one of those cancers that gets into a civilization.
And this is honestly a hard one for people to cop.
They're like, oh, you know, how can you tax people earn less more?
It's like, well, you know, the only answer, as I said before is like, you get what you
incentivize and you get less of what you disincentivize.
If you want a rich culture, you should penalize foreigners.
And it's like, I know that sounds brutal, but it's the way it is.
And then likewise with inheritance, like, you know, the thing Marx hated more than anything
else was these lineages that extended back through time where wisdom, genetics, wealth,
territory, property, familial ties, all of this sort of stuff went back.
That was like, you know, people had roots, you know, these days in modern civilization,
we don't have any fucking roots.
Like, you know, I'm a perfect example of this.
I don't fucking have any roots back to like my, I don't know who my ancestors were.
You know, at some stage, one of the things I'd like to do is go back and trace that.
But you know, that all got lost because, you know, World War One, World War Two, you know,
a bunch of shit got blown up and we've been convinced over the last, you know, century
or so that our lineages don't matter.
It took a while for that to sort of embed itself, you know, really post World War Two
and the boomers who just didn't give a fuck about anything that came before them.
They sort of embedded this ideology of like, oh yeah, the past doesn't matter.
You know, ancestry doesn't matter and all this sort of stuff.
And what we are is we're a rootless culture.
Like, you know, what happens to a tree that doesn't have roots, it fucking dies.
Like take a tree and plant it in a pot and see how big that tree grows.
It doesn't grow very big.
You know, the trees, the size of the tree is proportionate to, you know, the depth through
which its roots can get to.
So if you want to kill a culture, if you want to kill a civilization, start to kill off
the roots.
And if you look into each of these Marxist prescriptions, what you find is an attempt
to kill off either productivity, kill off beauty, destroy roots, destroy time preference,
all of these sorts of things.
That's exactly what these prescriptions are.
And the result is fucking Chinese gluing their hands to the fucking floor to stop cars
in the middle of the highway.
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Now, I mean, it is there's a couple points I want to touch on there.
One is just with regard to the destruction of roots and sort of the the quote end of
history.
I, you know, Orwell does such a great job of this in 1984.
They just they just keep erasing history.
Because nobody knows the roots.
Nobody knows their past.
Nobody knows the history of their state of their territory, which makes it very, very
convenient for the party, for the state to invent whatever sort of fabricated history
is most convenient for them at the time and to constantly change that history to fit whatever
narrative they're trying to push in the present because the past doesn't exist except the
state's version of the past.
And then you have the one of the huge absurdities to me of communism and of Marx's he preaches
this idea of we need to, you know, it's a it's an unequal society, right?
It's unequal because there's that it's basically what we, you know, today we'd call the haves
and the have nots, but it's, you know, the bourgeoisie and the proletariat.
Well, the problem with what he prescribes for this is he says, okay, what we need to
do is we need to get rid of all their private property, whatever they have left tax progressively,
depending on how rich they are, don't let them pass anything on to their kids.
If they are deemed as a rebel or as a, you know, an enemy of the party, then you take
everything they have because and then you you give them the most, most humiliating menial
fucking job you possibly can.
And this is actually what they did.
I know this from talking to people who survived communism like like Carla's parents and talking
about the experiences that their parents and their grandparents had going through this
for many decades in Romania.
But the fucking biggest absurdity for me is that Marx basically says we need to we need
to have this change come about.
And he even uses the word what does he say, you know, through despotic, we may have to
use despotic means at first something to that effect, where he basically says, we're gonna
have to do really fucked up shit to get what we want.
But that's okay, because eventually we'll get to this perfect utopia.
But the problem is that the utopia that he prescribes is based on just a different hierarchy
of control, just one that puts the worker quote, the worker at the top.
But really, you can't have everybody making all the decisions.
So we should have a small party of people that makes these decisions that represent the workers.
And he talks of one of the other things he talks about is the centralization of credit
and a monopoly on money by a state bank controlled by the party.
That I mean, that's literally just the central banking model.
The central banking model is inherently communist in that way.
Because I think what people miss is when if you don't have a good grasp of what communism
actually means, you think that it just being some maybe some nice idea that hasn't ever
been perfectly sorted out.
But maybe it'll get there.
But the idea is okay, right?
And it's like, no.
The idea is fucked because the foundation of the idea is destroying the private property
of others, taking it away and giving it to other people and then putting new people up
the top.
It's just an authoritarian system.
It's a authoritarian top down state controlled system masquerading under the guise of lifting
up the worker.
But that's all really bullshit.
And communism has been tried now again and again and again and the neo-commies will say,
well, real communism's never been tried.
That's not the real Marxist way.
It's like, listen, if you really got your way, communism would have ended humanity as
we know it by now.
But luckily, there were enough people that said, this is complete bullshit.
We're going to stand up against this.
And the old common saying that you vote your way into communism, but you shoot your way
out rings very, very true.
And it's sad that so many people just do not grok that.
Yeah.
I mean, the thing is like the dragon was not slain.
It found its way to like, it found its way into everything else in the civilization we
hold dear, right?
And that's the thing.
Like, we thought we won to some degree, but we literally led it in the front door.
It's like, yeah, we, and that's what I think in many ways has been missed.
Like the, the communism, the overt communism was never going to win because it was just
like people just don't have the stomach for it, right?
And the kind of people who are inclined to support it, you know, to honestly, a too pussy
to like do what needs to be done, right?
Like, and I've been going down a massive rabbit hole on South Africa.
And if you want to know what's going to happen to the rest of the West, go and study South
African history.
South Africa was the, should, should have been the richest place in the world.
Like it was richer than America in the early 1900s.
South Africa was one of the jewels of Western civilization and everything that happened
there in terms of like how immigrants are treated like, you know, in terms of like mass
immigration, like, you know, oh man, I don't want to get you in trouble in this, you know,
in this podcast, but there is so much there.
Like if you, if you ever want to go down a rabbit hole, Wilbur Smith, he's an author
who writes historical fiction and his books, honestly, man, like I thought Iron Rand was
a good writer.
This guy's fucking way better.
Like he's incredible and his stories about communism or any of that sort of stuff, particularly
that they're about a family, the Courtney family who basically comes to South Africa
in the late 1700s as English sailors.
And South Africa, a lot of people don't realize was 90% uninhabited.
Like the South of Africa was un-fucking-inhabited.
The first territorial claimants of that were not black people, but white people.
They do not realize this shit.
It was the white man who inhabited it and built it up, particularly Englishmen, Dutch,
and a bit of German.
And it became the most prosperous.
And the story, his books basically follow this Courtney family, this Courtney line.
And you see how communism sort of infiltrated South Africa and started to tear it apart
from inside and how then communism as an ideology infiltrated Zimbabwe, Mozambique,
and all of these regions and destroyed Africa more than anything else.
Like it wasn't colonialism.
It wasn't any of that sort of stuff that destroyed Africa, as a lot of people would like to have
me believe.
It was communism that destroyed the inside fucking land.
So there's a lot there and it's just interesting like, imagine that history up with everything
that I sort of studied and learned in writing the Uncommunist Manifest, everything that we're
seeing in the West today with the West, with all these, whether it's climate change, whether
it's ESG, whether it's fucking masks, whether it's central banking, whether it's whatever,
all of it.
It's all found its way and it's infected everything.
And I know it's going to be like, this is why I say it's going to be something that
like you don't remove an infection overnight.
It doesn't happen like that unless you kill the host, right?
Like so for us to disentangle ourselves from this cancer, it's going to take quite a while.
It's going to take a series of generations and it's going to take really, really, really,
really good leadership in multiple ways, not a single leader, but like really strong leaders
per micro territory and as many of those as possible who form alliances.
And you know, once again, as all history, this next phase of history will also be shaped
by a few strong men who buck the fucking trend and offer a better narrative, a better story,
a better future, something worth aspiring towards and you'll see the rekindling of spirit
in humanity.
And honestly, I can already sense this like Millay for me has been such a, such a breath
of fresh air because you can sense the fucking energy in a son of a bitch, like the way he
fucking talks, the way he presents himself, like he's articulate, he's smart, he's energetic,
he's passionate, he's driven, he's got all of this sort of stuff and that's fucking
inspirational.
And it's not only inspirational, but it's like it is so threatening to the communist
archetype.
Like they hate him, bro.
They hate him and I fucking love it.
Like these people, they're worms and they're going to lose.
And that's in a country that has been just plagued by these parasitic ideas and we have
seen the result of it.
And in Argentina, it's a, you know, a really interesting and quite tragic case because it's
happened again and again and again and again.
And it's like clockwork every couple of decades, a new coup and a new overthrow and a new,
you know, reformed party that promises some change and then what do they do?
They maintain their currency for a little while after wiping the books clean and then
they run up hyperinflation again and then they rinse and repeat over and over again.
So to see that energy, I know people have, they, you know, have some issues with, you
know, various aspects of it.
And you know, for me, it's, I'm somebody who is, I am never a fan of fawning over politicians
in any way because they're just trying to get your vote.
What I think is good to pay attention to is the person's ideas.
Doesn't, you know, liking the man, you know, we've gotten to this point where it's like
politicians are expected to just be like, who's the most palatable to the most people?
Right?
They're gonna be the most vanilla that doesn't irritate too many people too much so they
can put them up next to the other guy who's this big loud, you know, big loud character
and say, look, well, he's not crazy like that guy, but it's like the, the fucking vanilla,
you know, don't rock the boat type people are the ones that end up doing the most fucking
nefarious shit in the background.
I mean, they're the ones who end up getting Nobel Peace Prizes for bombing the shit out
of the Middle East.
They're the ones who end up, you know, declaring the wars on inflation one while they engage
in multiple actual foreign wars and, you know, pump billions and billions of taxpayer dollars
over to fund the absolute widespread slaughter of people on two sides of a moving territory
line that don't really necessarily have anything to do with us as much as they would have you
believe it.
And it's a good example of just, I'm so sick of the most palatable option being the one
that people say, well, it's the lesser of two evils, you know, fuck that I reject, I
reject that premise that you should have to choose the lesser of two evils, you should
choose what is best, you should choose who is best, and you should choose the one that
probably makes you a little bit uncomfortable, and, you know, we should also be wary of those
who try to masquerade in those kind of populist clothes.
Like personally, you know, and a lot of people, you know, a lot of Bitcoiners may give me
flak for this, but I think Trump is a fucking jackass.
I think he did more of the same people like to ignore the fact that it was he, him that
appointed Jerome Powell, but it was under his administration that we printed $5 trillion
during COVID.
Oh, we had to, we had to.
Bullshit.
People like to make excuses for people that they identify with and that they like.
What I try to remind myself to do is to question doubly hard the people who I find myself liking,
because that's where we have blind spots.
We have blind spots, not with the people who we automatically see, look, you're full of
shit, I don't agree with anything you say, I think you're garbage.
Those people we suss out pretty well, right?
But the people that we find our self finding kinship with, that's where you have to kind
of check yourself a little bit and say, what am I missing here?
Am I having a blind spot?
And to clarify, this is not directed towards Malay.
I, because again, I find myself pretty impressed with him.
And as you said, he's a, he's a guy that's just like full of vitality.
He's energetic and he scares the ever loving shit out of the establishment.
And that's why you see them drawing parallels to Trump and drawing parallels to whoever
they can to try and tarnish him.
And it's the same sort of thing to a different degree that they do with Bukele, who is now
able to, you know, kind of again, give people the middle fucking finger and say, look, all
of you Western media pundits who were saying for years that El Salvador is going to default,
that El Salvador is a, you know, clearly an authoritarian state where, you know, the rule
of law only exists at the behest of the president.
His people are happy.
His economy is thriving.
His brilliant move to start stacking Bitcoin as a nation state looks even more brilliant
now, even to the fucking idiots who couldn't see it from the start.
And it's a great example of leading with action and not trying to pander to every fucking
thing in Tom Dick and Harry who waves their hands and says, no, you can't do this.
So that was a long winded way of me saying that pacifying of the masses is the basis
of the communist appeal, right?
It's trying to find something that they're going to be able to get the most number of
people to get behind with inflamed rhetoric and hollow talking points and a bunch of word
salad that doesn't actually mean anything and represents no actual plan.
And what I loved about the uncommunist manifesto is that in contrast to Marx, who doesn't even
know what he's saying half the time, you guys start out the book with definitions.
You started out by defining what is capitalism, what is energy, what is communism, what is
entropy, what is Bitcoin?
And I think that that was a brilliant way to do it because we can't ever have a meaningful
conversation unless we agree on what we're talking about and what words mean because
they do have meaning.
So I want to give this back to you a little bit because I'd love to, you mentioned that,
okay, yes, Bitcoin, the path to hyper-Bitcoinization, let's say, is likely longer and more fraught
than many would idealistically choose to believe.
I will accept that as well.
I agree with that.
One of the things that you've been writing a lot about recently is energy.
And this is an incredibly fraught topic on the global stage.
You see the climate conferences, you see all this hysteria about, quote, climate change
in a world that has undergone many climate changes before humans ever existed.
But I want to, yeah.
Where do you start your, what's your kind of logical foundation for approaching the topic
of energy as it relates to Bitcoin and as it relates to human flourishing going forward?
And I would say the very parasitic mentality of some of these neo-communists who say that
we need to just keep printing more money to finance climate programs that, and if we don't
do that, then the oceans are going to flood while the, you know, the hills and the valleys
burn and we're all going to be dead in 10 years from now, always 10 years from now,
from whenever they're writing it.
Exactly.
Man, let's, okay, so let's, let's break a few things down.
I really want to drill into energy.
Maybe just before I do, I wanted to just pull on one definition, authoritarianism.
I want to, I want to take back that word.
I want to claim that authoritarianism is a good thing.
So heme atomists is, I think authority as a concept is something that the disease of
leftism and openness and communism, whatever has infiltrated us and hypnotized us into
thinking authority is a bad thing.
I have come to believe that authority is similar to like excellence, responsibility, etc.
Because authority is something that you must trade time, energy and effort for, you know,
like the master is an authority.
Like you, we used to have the master and the apprentice, right?
And the apprentice would seek out an authority and he would work for the authority and sure,
at times you get treated like shit because, you know, no one's perfect.
But at the end of the day, like the premise behind learning as an apprentice was to also
in time become an authority.
So authority, I believe is a fantastic thing.
And hierarchically speaking, authority must be at the top.
And I would argue that Bukele is an authoritarian, but in the good sense because he is the authority
in Salvador.
And he has very much like what I would almost that envision a senior king kind of archetype.
He has taken charge of the fucking situation and he has directed Salvador into a place
that is fundamentally better than where it was.
And that requires authoritarianism.
So I would kind of separate that from maybe totalitarianism, which is, you know, disability
to kind of, you know, create a surveillance 1984 state that turns everybody into a bug
man and, you know, destroys the spirit of the individual.
You know, authority implies like leadership, etc.
So it's only it's like, I'm going into these like terms like even elite, for example, like
I wrote an article many years ago saying, let's take back the word elite, because elite
means the name of the crop.
It means to rise to the top elite.
You know, I think even in this some niche article that I wrote, like I've got the etymology
of elite, right?
I think we need to take back these words and be very precise with our definition.
So I just wanted to throw that in there as an offering.
I like that premise, actually, because, you know, it's another good example of words matter
and the meaning attached to those words matters.
And many words have been used as cudgels, if you will, to try and browbeat the less
informed populace into, you know, it's some sort of a dog whistle for the, you know, for
certain sections of the populace.
And I think that it is a good separation between, you know, authoritarianism and totalitarianism.
And I think perhaps if I'm understanding your kind of your premise correctly, you would
say that probably authoritarianism does not involve the total control of the economic
forces of the market, whereas totalitarianism requires the total control of forces of production,
as well as the total control of as many aspects of your life as they can get their grubby
little hands on.
Is that a fair characterization?
Totalitarianism is like this total fucking control and it comes from a place of fear.
It comes from a place of like wanting to fucking micromanage everybody.
It is middle management, longhouse hell.
That's essentially what totalitarianism, authoritarianism is fucking leadership.
It is an authority saying this, like, I'm the fucking captain of the ship and we're
going in this direction, you know, and I might be fucking retarded, but this is the direction.
And at least like human beings have, you know, the incredible capacity to figure shit out.
So even sometimes when they're heading in the wrong direction, they all get behind the
captain, they figure their way out, right?
And it's like, this is, I mean, you know, but by hating the idea of authority, what
we've started to do is we've started to invert functional hierarchies.
Now what do we do?
We place the most incompetent moron into a position of authority because they're fucking
13 genders and fucking got six disabilities and, you know, they're on 35 meds, right?
Now because of that, they are the new authority.
So it's like, we've just demolished the very function of authority in a civilization, which
is competence.
Like authority implies competence.
Like to become an authority, you must be competent.
You must have invested the time in order to do so.
Otherwise, you're not an authority.
You're fucking your floor, right?
And that's what we have to do.
I think that's a good point.
And that just again, in the interest of reclaiming these words, you know, to be an authority
on something, to become an authority on something, I should say, because you, you cannot just
be an authority.
You must be, you must become an authority.
And that is an organic and emergent process.
That is something that should happen through your proof of work.
And that should be readily apparent.
The idea, and I think what we've come into in modern society is more of the logical fallacy
of appeal to authority versus, but it's a false authority.
It's an authority that is placed there and said, this is the authority.
This is it.
Without authority.
Yeah, authority, literally.
Exactly, exactly.
And I think that that's a really important distinction because, you know, we should all strive to
be an authority on something, right?
Because that implies that you are, if you are a phenomenal fucking brain surgeon, you
may be the authority on a specific type of brain surgery.
That is a good thing.
And when you tell other doctors what they should do in that instance in a surgery, yes, you
are being an authoritarian in that context.
But I think it's a, it's a very, it's a very good point about just reclaiming definitions
and using words that have actual meaning versus buzzwords that we've been fed that have taken
on their own life and language evolves, right?
This is, this is natural language is always going to evolve.
But that means that language is never static.
So we do have a chance at taking some of these words back, which in my mind is a very heartening
thing.
But speaking of kind of taking back language, taking back narratives, I think this is what
you are endeavoring to do with some of your writings.
The recent ones that I just wrote that are pre-published, but about energy.
And because we've the common sort of, and I, we could call it a leftist mentality, but
I don't even want to bring left and right into it because I think that that's often
an oversimplification.
The what has become a very anti-human sentiment is that using energy, using lots of energy
is just inherently bad that, that when we use more energy, that is not a good thing.
That should be discouraged.
We need to use as little energy as possible because otherwise bad things are going to
happen to the planet.
And I think that there's become a complete separation between people have come to conflate
using energy with like pollution.
Like we can all agree that pollution is bad.
Like big smog clouds are bad.
It's not a good thing, you don't want that.
What is not a bad thing, what is a very good thing is the utilization of energy in more
efficient and productive ways.
That is what allows humanity to flourish.
That is what has brought us the world out of abject poverty, increased our life expectancy
by decades, allowed us to have clean running water and plumbing in every fucking home in
most places in the world.
That is a good thing.
So in the vein of reclaiming the narrative, reclaiming definitions, how do you think about
energy?
What is your kind of fundamental operating base for how you approach those types of discussions
and maybe those types of debates when you get into them?
Yeah, I think when we have those discussions and debates, it's really, really important
to again start out with definitions and set the frame, right?
Because if you operate from someone else's frame, you're going to be fighting and losing
battle.
So you want to win an argument, you want to reframe things.
First of all, we need to identify and be very clear about the difference between using energy
and wasting energy.
And I would argue that energy is precious.
Yes, it's infinite, it's abundant, it's unlimited, like technically speaking, everything you
see around us is a fuel of some sort, it is an energy of some sort.
What we are limited by is our capacity to extract, harvest, channel, harness the energy,
right?
Like I'm sure in some fucking 10,000 years from now, I will be able to turn this pen into
some sort of fusion reactor that powers my spaceship, okay?
But we do not have the technical prowess now to take the atoms from here and split it from
the pen, right?
So it's like, there is enough energy in the atoms in this pen to do whatever I want.
But we are limited by our technological prowess, which therefore means that there is an amount
of energy that we can extract, harness, harvest, whatever word you want to use from the fuel
sources that are available to us at the current point in time.
So we do not want to waste that energy, we want to utilize it as efficiently and effectively
as possible, because if you view life in economics as a game, that which utilizes the energy most
effectively and efficiently wins, or it progresses, or it continues.
Like if you want to make the argument that life is that which wants to continue or perpetuate,
well, that's what it does.
It takes energy and channels it in a direction that is pro-life and ideally away from entropy,
right?
So this, like if we can start with that sort of paradigm and that sort of framework and
agree there, then we can, I guess, move on to the idea that, okay, well, in that case,
harnessing, channeling, utilizing energy is a good thing.
It is in line with life, which if we want to live, if we want to progress, if we want
civilization to continue, then ideally we should be pro-life.
If we're talking about just ending everything, we might as well just press a few buttons
and nuke everything right now, right?
Get it over with.
Exactly.
So let's just pick a fucking side and just decide, right?
So if we are, in that case, pro-life, then what we need to be doing is we need to be
not only minimizing the wastage, but we need to be working out ways in which the units
of energy that we extract or harness or harvest are as energetically viable and economically
viable as possible.
So this is where a lot of people don't know this about me, but I used to be in the solar
industry.
I built one of Australia's largest solar renewable energy businesses in my early 20s.
And that business blew up.
And I'll take responsibility, but it was something that I didn't foresee happening,
which was the government introducing a bunch of rebates, which made all of us a bunch of
money.
And then when it came time to pay the rebates out, they paid around 50 cents on the dollar,
and we all got basically janked.
That was when my distrust and hate for government came from, I was 23, 24, I learned from being
a millionaire one day to broke motherfucker the next day.
But I have a special place for solar in a negative way now, because back in the day
I genuinely thought, oh my god, you have this thing and you've got the sun, and why aren't
we not just using that as energy?
Now I'm a little bit smarter and realize, okay, this thing has a lifespan, which means
it's only going to produce energy for a particular period of time.
It's only going to harness a particular energy for a particular period of time.
That's going to diminish.
It's also not going to harness energy when there's no sunshine.
So it's got a limited actual lifespan.
But what it costs in energy and time terms to produce this bloody thing doesn't actually
make a lot of sense.
So we end up with this very, very low density, high entropy form of energy, which is not
able to carry life.
So it has low carrying capacity with respect to life.
So then I start to think, okay, well, if that's the case, what do we need to do from
an energy harnessing or energy harvesting standpoint is we need to focus on density,
density, density, density, density, density.
We need to find fuel sources, which are as dense as possible because they give us the
capacity to carry or to sustain or to support more life.
And that for me, if I had to sum it all up, is the goal for humanity should be harnessing
fuel sources that are as dense as possible that we can extract, harvest and use the energy
and do our best to minimize the wastage because waste is just fucking stupid.
The more you waste, the less chance you have of perpetuating life.
And the former is something that we've been able to do with oil, coal, nuclear, etc.
We have the capacity to do this stuff.
It's the latter where we're running around like a bunch of blind people is that I believe
we probably waste 90 or 95% of the energy out there because we live in a Seattle society.
We produce shit we don't need.
We do it slower, more stupid, more retarded, more backwards than we otherwise would had
we had a monetary system that we could measure all of this stuff accurately with.
We're literally like blind men trying to build a house and not only like trying to build
a house being blind, but we're using a elastic tape measure.
And we're wondering why everything is like all wonky and fucking nothing's holding together.
Bitcoin is like eyesight with a tape measure that works.
And as a result, you actually get a house.
You don't get a fucking shack.
So it's like, this is anyway, I've rambled on a little bit, but
No, no, I appreciate the frame because I think it's a really important concept that when
it comes to energy, when people like to think of it, there are a lot of people who say,
Oh, just the act of using energy or using quote too much energy is somehow wasteful.
It's like that's it's not wasteful if it's going towards productive things that create
value and enhance the human experience.
Right.
And I mean the human experience broadly.
What people I think just get really fucking tripped up on is this idea that of using energy
for Bitcoin, like we see this all the time.
I think this narrative is going away.
It's going to be a flood of the past before too long.
You know, the change the code in turn will still be screeching.
No, like for until they're funding until they're funding from Ripple runs out.
But people are at least coming around to it because and then the place that they'd need
to get to, I think that a lot of us Bitcoiners have reached is that how can you any society
that does not have the base layer, base layer scarcity, base layer auditability, base layer
predictability is going to be wasteful.
The fiat system is inherently wasteful.
It is a system of creating something from nothing, creating money from nothing and then
using that to create a lot of things that are superfluous, that are not needed, that
do not advance our species and that ultimately leave people worse off than they were before.
So it comes down to that trying to eliminate waste.
And the only way to do that is to have a base layer that allows you to actually measure
what is being wasted and to conserve.
You know, Bitcoin is fundamentally conservative, not for anyone listening in the political
way, conservative in the literal meaning of the word to conserve.
And I think that's what a lot of people in the, let's call it the mainstream are missing.
But I hope that they get there soon.
Let's break down the wastage.
I see sort of three buckets, right?
One is you've got like the actual how the money functions you have next is like misallocation
of resources and malinvestment.
And then the final one is kind of like the superfluous nature of like creating high time
preference and therefore consumerism.
So like if we look at those three elements of wastage, the first one is let's look at
if I want to go down the street and buy a coffee, right?
And I tap my card, right?
That seems simple, you know, it's like, okay, yeah, a payment went through.
That's pretty low energy.
But if you start thinking, okay, what needs to exist in order for me to do that?
Well, first of all, like stupid plastic card needs to exist.
And then all the terminals.
And you need to have the companies that act as terminal or payment gateways.
And then, you know, and that's whether it's square or pigs or this or that whatever, like
this, right, then you need to have the banks that enable, you know, the money to move,
you know, the credit clearing houses and all of that sort of stuff.
And each of those banks and credit clearing houses, you also need Mastercard and fucking
visa.
Like think about just the number of employees and number of buildings.
Think about the lighting bill for Mastercard globally, right?
So like just you need all of that infrastructure, then you need the banks, then you need the
central banks, you know, to exist in order to issue the money.
And then be on the central banks, you need like the government and the judicial system
to exist in order to keep them on as many need the military industrial company, you
need all of this shit and think about the amount of energy, people, time, resources
and shit that is involved in the ability for me to go down the street and tap my card
to get a coffee, right?
Whereas Bitcoin provides basically the same guarantee or in fact, in order to magnitude
better guarantee of money and all that happens is electricity goes in fucking minor and at
the other end you have Bitcoin.
It's like a direct energy to money transmission.
There is no shorter path.
Like all of this stuff for me to have money in my shitty bank account and be able to tap
my visa card, the energy input from all of that cascading crap needs to exist.
And that is all underpinned at the end of the day by coal, oil, nuclear, gas, whatever,
right?
So, but that stuff instead of being transmuted into a monetary network, it's got to go through
all of those layers of shit in order to come to us.
And that's fine because humanity didn't go from fucking gold to Bitcoin.
Like you know, we had to get there.
Like a lot of people have this sort of misconceptions like, oh, you know, fear is the epitome of
evil.
Yes, it's bad, but it's, we have to get through it, right?
It is like part of, like it's the mud in the race, you know, when you're doing your,
you know, tough mud or whatever, like you have to go through that shit and we're going
to come out the other end.
But like, this was a necessary component that we had to progress through in order for civilization
to become more complex.
And think about like how much energy goes into that and how we are still able to build
quite a complex society.
Rip away all that wastage.
Man, that energy can get redirected into something else.
So that's kind of like one layer.
The second layer of malinvestment, when you can print money, what do you do?
Fundamentally, you change the incentives about where money goes.
So instead of building, I don't know, like, you know, where I'm in Brazil now, motherfuckers
here can't get the drains right.
Like every single Airbnb I go to, the drains just fucking clog up.
Like I don't know what's wrong with these people.
Like why they can't just like build a greater degree of elevation between the drain and
pipe, whatever.
Like, you know, instead of that, you know, there's apps about, you know, building the
next dick pic or whatever, like, you know, or dating or whatever, like, you know, like
so all of our resources get mismanaged.
And you know, you have stupid like AI companies being built that do literally nothing or financial
arbitrage apps being built that literally do nothing or crypto that literally does nothing
or like carbon companies, you know, and climate change.
Like so it's all like misallocation of capital, which is another word for wastage.
And then so you've got all this like distortion, like, you know, the visual that I have in
my head is that stupid, I think it was an Indian bodybuilder who just like pumped his
biceps full of synthol.
Right.
Yeah.
Like that's that's what our economy looks like.
It's this thing that is like a Frankenstein weird, like, deformed in such a way that it's
like in the in the space of like atoms, like, I mean, airlines, flights should be beautiful
now.
They are fucking hell because all of the capital is going towards building dick pic apps and
trading apps, right?
Instead of like fixing something in the world of atoms.
So it's kind of like the next level of wastage.
And then obviously the final level of wastage is the fact that we are incentivizing low
time preference, cheapness and consumerism.
And what comes out of that is this incessant need to buy the next piece of plastic shit
that lasts six months so that you can buy another piece of plastic shit that lasts four
months so that you can buy another piece of plastic shit that lasts two months and into
perpetuity, you know, of just like junk and crap and junk and crap, which turns into pollution.
So it's like more wastage, more waste, more pollution, more junk, more crap.
And like if you think about all of that and like Bitcoin coming in and just like disrupting
those, Jesus Christ man, like you get an unlocking of energy.
I mean, even just like, I'll just say this one point because I get really passionate
about this.
I went crazy the first time I went to Brazil, like I was sitting there trying to hire a car.
And dude, I had to wait in this stupid line for three hours because everybody had to be
six feet apart.
And they were, they were showing us like they had this like they built this kind of like
perspex plate perspex like box where they would put the cars in and they would spend an hour
like spraying the car down with all these fucking chemicals and like what, and these
people in hazmat suits.
And I was like, got almighty, like think about the time that is being wasted now, the energy
that is being wasted now, like multiply that by every single person that is either at a
bank or a car hire or an airline or I was like, holy fucking shit, we are wasting as
a civilization 99.99999% of our energy and time right now on the greatest possible stupidity
in human history.
Like I was like, how the fuck is anything still functioning?
It's a miracle.
So what that tells me is that like we can do so much as human beings with so little and
if we unlocked and stopped wasting so if we unlocked that potential and stop wasting all
that energy, dude, we should be a type one type two civilization by now, you know, with
fucking oil and a little bit of nuclear we have, but no, we are squandering most of it.
And this is, you know, coming back to like, final point is, you know, my fire Bitcoin
teleportation article is like, you know, everyone talks about like, you know, the Karashiv scale
and the great filter that doesn't fucking happen without the discovery of energy money.
It doesn't fucking happen.
This is what all the physicists don't fucking get.
They look at it through like, oh, you know, you know, you need like multi cellular organisms,
you need sex, you need apes, and then, you know, all of a sudden we'll be like multi
planetary species.
No dickhead.
You need the fucking energy money.
Like that is like the big discovery that is the big aha moment, which aligns human action,
economics, energy, time in a direction such that we are not squandering everything.
So I'll calm the fuck down now.
And I love it though.
Because I think it's such an important thing to focus on not just the high time preference
behavior that is created because that's that's an, you know, people are incentivized to have
high time preference behavior, right?
When you have high time preference money that loses its value quickly, you incentivize high
time preference behavior.
And that leads to waste because you don't think through things.
You don't plan ahead.
When you plan ahead, you do things more efficiently and effectively and achieve better results.
And you fucking fly off the cuff doing scrambling to do whatever you think you need to do just
to keep your head above water because the system is so fucked.
That's where you create waste.
And the other big area that I see going back to your first point is just, you know, about
all the layers of abstraction between you, a seemingly simple action of you tapping the
card to purchase a coffee and money actually settling on the back end.
There are like, I think even if we spent the day trying to count them out, the layers of
abstraction, we would still miss a couple dozen probably.
And that's the idea that so much of the inefficiency that's baked into our system at the monetary
layer, which then permeates out to everything else because the money is the base layer,
all of that inefficiency is coming from the layers of abstraction and the middlemen that
we place.
And the whole idea of Bitcoin is get rid of the trusted third party, get rid of the middleman,
go directly to the source and have, as you said, energy money where you are removing
the abstraction, you are allowing the energy to be conserved and not be just, you know,
at the whims of fucking chaos because you get rid of all the fucking people just shuffling
papers, so to speak, in between.
The crater on the top.
Exactly.
And we see that level of middleman based inefficiency in so many areas, not just of the economy,
but of our political economy.
I mean, this is the bureaucrat, right?
This is not the leader.
This is not the, you know, this is not the one at the top.
This is not the one at the local level.
This is, these are the fucking all the different bureaucrats in the education system.
We see that the decline of test scores and of, you know, merit based academia and the
rise of spending on a bloated bureaucratic class of paper shufflers that don't actually
do jack shit and in fact, detract from the productive capital that would otherwise be
deployed on actual education or on actual, you know, people talk about all the time,
you know, oh, well, without you paying your taxes, we won't have any roads.
And it's like, have you ever fucking been to Chicago?
We pay through the fucking nose with taxes.
We have the roads.
And our roads are all toll roads, you have to pay tolls to drive on your own fucking
roads that you apparently pay taxes for.
And they're still full of fucking potholes.
So I'm sorry, you know, it's an extreme example, but it's also a fucking one of the biggest
brightest cities in the USA that's also riddled with crime, rampant with corruption and having
a mass wealth exodus.
But hey, at least we pay taxes and pay tolls to have shitty pothold filled roads because
thank goodness for all the fucking middlemen bureaucrats that clog up the otherwise productive
capital being deployed.
What would we do without them?
We'd be lost little sheep, little NPCs just glitching in a corner somewhere, you know.
Thank goodness for the bureaucrats.
Yeah.
You know, Spetzi, I could, I could rip with you all day on this because I think you and
I would probably would probably both go on some heavy tangents as well, going down the
class of just fucking the unproductive and bureaucratic layers of our society.
And I wish we had a little more time, but both of our time is scarce.
Your time is scarce.
What I want to finish up with, and then I have one unrelated question, but what I want
to finish up with is maybe can you talk a little bit about what you're doing with AI
and Bitcoin, because I think it's a really cool project and one that I'd really like
to highlight.
So can you give us the kind of recap of, you know, what you're building for those that
don't know and kind of what your goal is with that moving forward?
So yes.
So to sum it up, we've evolved the thinking on this a lot, but it's we are positioning
ourselves at the nexus of Bitcoin and AI, and we're trying to use AI to make Bitcoin
easier, more accessible, more understandable.
And we're trying to use Bitcoin to potentially also make AI more open.
And what I mean by that is I'll explain through a couple of examples.
The first suite of models, which depending on when this goes live might actually be available
for people to download for free on Huggingface and they can run it locally.
It's going to be open source or they can access it through spiritistotoshi.ai.
And it is basically a Bitcoin model.
So similar to ChatGPT, it'll be a language model that you can ask any question about
anything, and it'll answer more like a Bitcoin.
That's the premise of the core model.
And the use case for something like that might be embedding it into an exchange, as an education
onboarding assistant, embedding it as a tutor in an educational app like WISER or what the
plan B guys are doing, et cetera.
So all that sort of stuff.
But another example, and this is something we're excitedly working on now is a Bitcoin
coding assistant.
So we're calling it CodeSotoshi, very original, I know.
And basically the idea is that it'll specialize in everything from like mini script, RGB,
BitVN, whole punch, Nostra, blah, blah, blah.
And it'll help developers who are not familiar with Bitcoin, Bitcoin protocols, Bitcoin frameworks,
Bitcoin languages, et cetera, to be able to build Bitcoin products and services.
So that's kind of like using AI to enable Bitcoin more broadly.
And then the other direction is like there's this whole push that in the long term, we're
going to need more open source models.
Now the best way to build open source models is to really crowdsource the data, crowdsource
the information, whether it's the collection, the curation, or the cleanup of the data,
or the training of the model through reinforcement learning or whatever.
You want to get a crowd to that.
Now the question becomes, how the fuck do you incentivize the crowd?
Well, there's a thing called micro payments and there's a thing called light name, which
might be able to incentivize people all around the world without a bank account, blah, blah,
blah, blah, to do so.
So we actually built prototype of this specifically to help us build our own model.
So we've got the whole Bitcoin community assisting us, well not the whole Bitcoin community,
obviously, but a bunch of people from around the world assisting us in the data, curation,
collection, cleanup.
And that data then goes into training the open source models.
So we hope something like that.
So let's say if you want to build, I don't know, a fucking Christian Bible studies app,
if you want to build a self-defense language model, if you want to build a, I don't know,
like a Tucker Carlson bot or Anne Rand, bring her back to life, whatever, like you need
a framework like this.
And we hope that this is a way for us to make Bitcoin a thing inside AI.
So that's the nexus at which we're operating.
And likely by the time this comes out, we are writing the first Bitcoin AI industry report.
It's about 50 pages.
It goes into like we interviewed 50 Bitcoin content creators and VCs and Bitcoin companies
to understand what the pain points and problems are and how AI could potentially act as a
solution.
And we also outline and document the process of building a Bitcoin centric language model,
what it takes to build a language model, training data collection, all sorts of it's a really
it's a juicy report similar to Rivers Lightning report that came out like a couple months
ago.
It's going to be the first we're calling it the nexus of Bitcoin and AI.
So that report will be out before the end of the year for people to do a little light
Christmas reading.
So yeah, that's a love it overview of the stuff.
Yeah, I appreciate the rundown because I wanted to make sure that I got that in because I
think what you're doing is fasting in there.
I think it's great that you're building it out in the open as well because that, you
know, building things open source, bringing in feedback from all over the world.
That's not only how you make sure that these things don't get centralized, don't get captured,
but it's also how you make them better.
Building out in the open is a fundamentally better way to ensure that your product, your
solution has as much diverse feedback.
I mean, true diversity, not the bullshit diversity, but real diversity from people of all different
types all over the world.
And I think that's a beautiful thing.
So it's spiritisatoshi.ai.
I'll link to that in the show notes as well because I think it's so many people should
definitely check out and keep an eye on.
I think it's going to be, I mean, just off the cuff, it's going to be an amazing tool
for education and to build into some of these curriculums that like me, Premier Bitcoin,
can be these various curriculums that if maybe you don't have the manpower, but you want
to implement a version of their curriculum in your local area.
Well, this is a great, you know, artificial assistant for you to be able to do that and
to be able to share some of that workload.
It's like, you know, like all AI, it's a tool, right?
It depends how you use it.
So building a Bitcoin centric tool that's based on this technology, I think is fantastic.
And the last question I'll ask you is, what are you reading right now?
A book that you're reading right now that you would recommend people check out or one
you've read recently?
So I don't do much reading anymore, other than a couple of specific blogs that are from
a guy called John Carter.
He's a NIM on Substack, one of the most incredible fucking writers out there, and down.
I can give you his Substack after we get off this call.
Postcards from Bassoon, I think.
B-A-R-S-Double-O, and I think that's our spot.
But he's a fucking fantastic thinker.
I'm on my way to Orange filling him.
And yes, so other than that, I'm spending more time on Audible these days, and I pretty
much exclusively do fiction or history.
And the author I mentioned earlier, Wilbur Smith and the Courtney series, I've been on
a rampage telling everybody to get on this, start with his first book, When the Lion Feeds.
It starts, it's set in the late 1800s, just before the Boor War.
And it is fucking fantastic.
It starts with the patriarch of the family, Sean Courtney.
And it's just something like it's a pleasure to listen to.
The narrator is incredible.
The story is incredible.
The messaging, like the whole lot.
And the first three books of that series will just suck you in and you want to...
I'm up to book 11, I think, in the role of about 30 hours to give you an idea.
So it's fantastic.
That's a pretty intense backlog.
Okay, well, good deal.
Well, Spetsy, I want to thank you for coming on today because Bitcoin is scarce like our
time, but Bitcoin podcasts are abundant.
So thank you for sharing your scarce time with me on another fucking Bitcoin podcast.
It's been a pleasure and can't wait to have you back on at some point in the future.
Thank you, my friend.
May I do one more shill, actually, just something that is coming out in December?
Yeah, why not?
Throw it on out.
It's Bitcoin times.
So the annual publication I run once a year, last year was the Austrian edition.
We had Safedin, Goldstein, Pierre Rashad, et cetera.
It's basically, it's an invitation only publication that I do once per annum.
And like it's six essays written by people that I think are the best in their particular
field.
And this year it's the energy edition.
So I've got Marty Bent, Jerome Strong, Brian Gitt, Gideon Powell, Andrew Myers, and myself.
And one of the pieces in there is obviously the Nietzschean piece that you and I kind of
touched on a little bit.
But this is done once a year and I print 2100 of each.
So they're a collectible.
They're super, super fucking high quality.
They're a heavy set print.
They're numbered on the back so that way you know what editions you've got is yours.
So it's kind of like the collectible meets Bitcoin literature.
It's something that, you know, speaking of low time preference, it's something that
you would buy and then hand down to your children, children, children, et cetera.
And we're going to do 21 editions over 21 years and 2100 of each printed.
So the energy edition is on pre-sale now.
And if you're listening to this and you want to get a copy, I'll give you 40,000 sets off
with the code energy.
So if you use that code, you save some sets.
That's an easy code to remember, energy for the energy issue.
No, I love it.
I appreciate you sending me the copy or the pre-print to get a look at because I really
enjoyed that piece and can't wait to check out the rest of it.
So, man, thank you for your time here today and I'm sure we'll chat again soon.
We will.