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The truth is we're a lot closer to like a Weimar Germany. Like the end is nigh. Everybody's trading

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and gambling, you know, all day and night long to try to get ahead. Our government's very,

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very corrupt. That's ultimately why we're here. You just don't own anything. You have a debasing

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monopoly money from the government. Swap out if you have currency for Bitcoin, whatever possible.

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If you're deterring people from even trying to self-custody, to me, you're not a Bitcoiner at

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all. If Bitcoiners are doing what they say they're doing, which is holding and not selling,

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is it really that painful like for it to go down it just only goes up and if you're denominating

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a bitcoin terms you're up i think the way to have a clear goal in mind is to try to fix the money

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like that is the root cause of most of the corruption and the problems that we face that's

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an opportunity that like we don't even deserve as a culture but oh my god we're gonna get it again

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you know?

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US tax rules let miners write off 100% of their mining hardware in a single year. So earn Bitcoin

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00:01:25,580 --> 00:01:31,380
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14
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titcoin. Use the code titcoin to get $100 off your first miner when using the Blockware marketplace.

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This is not tax advice, so go speak to the team at Blockware to learn more. That's mining.blockwarsolutions.com

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slash titcoin. Head to the show notes for links to find the show on centralized social media

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00:01:49,100 --> 00:01:53,880
platforms and on Noster or just go directly to BitcoinPodcast.net. You'll find it all there.

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And kind reminder that you can support this show by becoming a paid subscriber on Fountain.

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Or don't. Bitcoin doesn't care, but I sure do appreciate it. Without further ado,

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let's get into this Bitcoin talk. I'm back and forth on this. On the one

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side of it, my thought process is, well, having a seed is, like, having that private key is really

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important. Like, and pneumonic seeds were a really great innovation in that they allow us to

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take that seed and very easily store it somewhere and go anywhere with it and reboot, you know,

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in a hardware agnostic, vendor agnostic way. That's super powerful, right? That said,

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like, it's like the majority of people, the vast majority of people aren't going to care or

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necessarily want to, or perhaps like, cannot even necessarily be trusted. So like, I see the

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argument on the other side like i want to i want to have a seed phrase right i want to i want to

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have that ability like to take it to take it anywhere a lot of people just maybe don't care

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and like like the majority of people i don't even think are going to self-custody bitcoin i think

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that's like that's just not going to happen we know we don't have enough utxos for for everybody

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so it's like i do feel that they're filling a gap but it's like you know it's it's like with

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everything there's there's trade-offs right like there are trade-offs and you have to be honest

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about those trade-offs and what like what they imply long-term for you or your personal sovereignty

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and for some people that just you know may not be important it's a slick product people seem to like

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it uh but like you know everybody's got to make an individual choice i just don't and i know this

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is like a not the nicest thing to say but it's like not everyone is maybe built for taking complete

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self-control and self-custody you know what i mean i do i understand that philosophy my my issue

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is not like I have big keys. I've used them. I got this before they were released. Like I've,

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I've been on, on them a long time. The issue, uh, started when they started lying about what they

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are. They're, they're not self custody. It's collaborative custody. It's a totally different

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thing. You, you, you depend on them to send transactions and you give up their privacy

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trade-offs. So I'm with you, you, but if they're going to, if they're not going to be honest about

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the trade-offs of using their product, that's no good for anyone.

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In the beginning, I think what happened is the person in charge of marketing there just

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doesn't understand Bitcoin at the level of people who have been using wallets for years.

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You can't just call it self-custody.

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And you definitely shouldn't encourage people to throw their seed phrases away.

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I know it's kind of like a rage-baity marketing tactic.

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Yeah.

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It works for that reason, but it's very, very dangerous.

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You're encouraging people to use Bitcoin with trusted third parties, which defeats the whole purpose.

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Just go buy an ETF.

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Why would you even fuck around with this?

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Like, what's the point of it?

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If you're not willing to put in – like, if you can understand that this is a two of three multi-sig,

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if you know what that is you're smart enough to set up a two three multi-sig you know what i mean

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like it's not it's not that hard it takes two or three hours i'm i kind of get it like i people in

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general like in aggregate we're pretty like low iq species it's hard for everybody to to self-custody

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but like i actually am more hopeful i think that i think if we take on that mindset it's pretty

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defeat us and people won't, of course they won't do it. They'll take the easy way out. They'll take

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the laziness trade off, the convenience trade off every time. And I just always want to push people

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not to do that. I think if you learn to set up your own multi-sig and then you try to get a plug

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and play piece of, you know, a nice, nice trusted third-party hardware like this, that's perfectly

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reasonable. But if you're deterring people from even trying to self-custody, to me, you're not a

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Bitcoiner at all. You're in this for fiat dollars. You're in this for short-term gains.

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I mean, it's not the first time one of these projects has started out on a great premise,

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which is like fulfilling a need in the market. We need more competition in the hardware market,

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and we need more varied solutions.

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And we need to abstract away parts of Bitcoin that are complicated.

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This has done a good job of all of those.

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But for me, the trade-offs are too high,

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and the marketing is so disingenuous

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that it does a disservice to everybody.

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Anyway, that's my rant on Bitcoin.

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No, no, I do feel you on the marketing side.

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Because again, I think the initial premise of this is very good, right?

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And as you said, abstracting away parts of this

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that are maybe not necessary for people to get into the nuts and bolts of,

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but still giving them a solution that's better than keeping their Bitcoin on an exchange.

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But it's like if the main benefits are lost, if a trusted third party is still required.

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And again, I don't know enough about the signing mechanism on the BitKey.

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It is a two of three multi-sig though.

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And presumably you do hold two of the keys, right?

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I'm assuming one on your phone and then one is the BitKey itself has the other key

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and then they have the third key.

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right one is on the two of the keys are on hot devices which is a problem so one is on

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it's not even block servers block doesn't even custody their own custody it's on amazon it's on

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aws that's where one of your keys is the other is on your phone which is the most compromised piece

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of equipment like in your life it's the most surveilled you know virused out bugged out it's

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a huge security vulnerability. Anybody that's been in Bitcoin for any amount of time, you know,

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you know, intuitively not to do extremely private things on this device. You have to consider

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everything on their, you know, spent, compromised completely. Okay. So those are two of your three

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keys. That means anyone who can get access to block servers, which there's no reason to believe

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that's a particularly difficult thing to do for like an advanced attacker or or the hot key on

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your app or just this device which you know there's no physical backup so you can't lose this

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uh you know what i mean there's no key backup so if you lose this your shot and you're completely

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relying on blocks infrastructure and the problem is you don't have a seed phrase so you cannot

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unilaterally exit their system. They have a non-standard

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emergency kind of exit protocol.

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If something goes wrong, you're completely trapped on blocks.

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If their GitHub disappears, you can't even reinstate

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their emergency software on an iPhone. You have to have an Android.

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It's a very convoluted... I promise you,

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just go look into it. The more you read about it, the scarier

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the promise that they're giving you is.

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If you're cussing serious money,

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you'd lose sleep if you lost it.

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It's a really scary proposition.

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Something like this.

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You actually would be safer just leaving your money

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on Coinbase or Strike or something.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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I need to look deeper into it

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because I got to say it is a slick-looking product.

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Yeah, it looks great.

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Yeah, it looks excellent.

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I dislike the marketing of like

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ditch your seed

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it's like that just feels like a

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a bad intent

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or maybe the

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yeah like to me self-custody

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it's a bad result or a bad suggestion

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like we don't want people to do that

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because this is an incredibly powerful thing that you can do

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where you can unilaterally exit

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anything as long as you have that seed

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it's like that is true power

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that's self-custody

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unilateral exit and unilateral control of your Bitcoin

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is self-custody. This lose your seed phrase, I promise you this was an idea that originated in

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California. This is the dumbest idea I've ever heard. I saw the first marketing for it in person

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in Vegas. I have to hand it to them. It did trigger so many people. I watched people walk

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by just like, what the fuck are they doing? It makes you talk about them. It makes you,

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but i don't know we we we decided the marketing marketing team's real genius was that

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block can actually block your transaction so it's like totally accurate

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because they can uh anyway that's uh yeah the keys big keys fun

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i think he's fun i mean clearly the marketing work is here we are talking about but i want to

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talk about i want i want to talk about you a little bit too you mentioned uh you mentioned

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Vegas and you have been a, I think maybe for people who don't know, you have been like behind

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the scenes running conferences for a long time. Like when things are going really smoothly and

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nice, it's because you and, you know, you and maybe X-Frog, usually you and X-Frog would be

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always the people I'd seen backstage. But can you talk a little bit about how you got into

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running shows, running conferences? And like, you know, you just became like this kind of like

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staple and a lot of times the people behind the scenes you know like you don't see them because

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they're the ones making sure everything's moving moving smoothly right but like how did you actually

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get into that in the first place I started well I was working at at Bitcoin magazine

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and we had a conference coming up and we had kind of um we were doing bad with revenue so we needed

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to invent kind of new products to sell. And so we didn't really reinvent. We just kind of stole

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the news desk. This is the first time you would have seen a news desk in the Bitcoin space.

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And we brought it, we modeled it after like a sports center, like ESPN style news desk.

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And I brought it to the exhibitor hall floor and we sold it for like two, three million bucks.

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um yeah to marathon um as a two three year sponsor or something like that

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um so we built this thing out and then uh I decided I wanted to run it because I was looking

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for uh I was bored at the mag I was running the Twitter I was running you know I'd written

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two three hundred articles been doing a lot of podcasts I was running their I started their

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YouTube channel, their Rumble channel. So I was doing all this social media stuff and I was like,

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kind of bored of it. Um, I just didn't find it very fulfilling. And I saw how big the conference

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was getting. This was like, you know, 2022. Um, and in 2021 was already so big, but 2022 was coming

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up and it was, it was going to be huge. So I just jumped in and, uh, programmed it. Like I just

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called all the people called sailor, like got, got ahold of everybody I could get ahold of like,

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hey, you have to jump on this desk. When you get off stage, come to this place and jump on the

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SportsCenter desk. It's going to be the biggest thing that's happening. And it was. It carried

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the live stream. We got 2 million viewers on that across the span of those days on that content.

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And it wasn't the best iteration of that that's ever happened. It was messy. It was really messy.

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People didn't show up. People showed up super angry that they had been bumped. I learned all

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kinds of you know ways to work with people and not to work with you know people on stage because they like all stage presence is so tied up with people egos that like it a very delicate job It very like you have to be really good at

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communication and like really patient with people because they show up and people show up wanting to

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fight. I remember the Hive guys, Aiden, the CEO of Hive, like wanted to fight me one time because

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he couldn't get on stage. He was so aggressive. It was crazy. So you pull up a chair for people,

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You know, you got to solve the problems and make it work.

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But I really liked it because it was like this high pace, high pressure thing.

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And it was like me and Rizzo, Nolan, Bowerly, like we were all we're all just having a blast filling in, you know, interviewing Saylor up there.

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I interviewed, you know, Portnoy before, you know, when he was so cool.

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And Ben Askren and like all these interesting people, like get them up there talking about Bitcoin.

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And then there was, you know, I wanted to do something bigger.

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I was like, well, I want to do like the main stage.

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So they gave me the Amsterdam conference, like as a trial.

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And I did that.

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And then I just took over all the conferences.

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So we were doing four conferences a year.

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I did a couple of conferences for Jack as well for Noster.

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Did the first ever Noster conference in Costa Rica.

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in Hong Kong, in Japan, in Latvia. Yeah, a lot of events, man.

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like Satoshi intended. Now back to the show. The Noster Unconference, Nostarica, that was a special

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time. It feels like one of those things you're going to look back on. I mean, I already kind of

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do and just be like, wow, can't believe that was a thing that happened and that I was at and aware

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of at this time. And like, what a, what a vibe there. And now, you know, I think there's been

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like looking at Noster specifically, a lot of people have maybe, or maybe like disappointed

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about say user growth more broadly, you know, just thinking like, Oh, it's kind of like stalled

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out. I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing at like, right, right now, you still have

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a really highly active number, like highly active cohort of people who are on Noster every single

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day, like all day, all night, across the world, all time zones, using a patchwork of different

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applications of end clients and who are, you know, then you've got all the builders who are like

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making that possible. And so to me, it's like, when the masses eventually do really come to Noster

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in size, at least the infrastructure is going to actually be built up more. Because like,

208
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that's the thing about an open protocol and a lot of open source software devs hacking stuff

209
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together it's like there's a lot of stuff that moves uh maybe is is less uh immediately reliable

210
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than a sense some centralized platform build out but is long term far more resilient but you know

211
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it takes a little bit longer to get there but i don't know i've been the vibes on noster continue

212
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to be good for me i don't know about you i think it's good i i would definitely be among those that

213
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are probably impatient and disappointed with the growth. I don't know if it'll succeed or not. I

214
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think for what it offers, like it's succeeding today for like a couple people. I enjoy it. I

215
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don't particularly enjoy scrolling it. I find it pretty boring to be a little bit bearish,

216
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but I do. I enjoy posting there because people are so friendly and nice and genuine.

217
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And I do think there's something to be said for like economic value of tipping over like virtue signaling with likes.

218
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I think I got pretty bored with everything that was being developed on it.

219
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Like there's a lot of this stuff is very niche and just doesn't have users.

220
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So it's like, okay, we're early.

221
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Now what?

222
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and I think the answer is like we just keep doing our thing and hoping for like a breakout like I

223
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think I got really interested in something more like a bit chat which is like okay this uses Noster

224
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but nobody using bit chat knows what Noster is unless they discovered it through Noster or

225
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something like very few you know what I mean they don't know that the back end touches Noster at all

226
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that's like okay now you're getting into a really um interesting place where like Noster in my

227
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opinion, has always had this identity crisis of being so self-absorbed and so upfront,

228
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technical, and affiliated with Bitcoin that it actually turns people off.

229
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I would say you and I had a really similar conversation about Roxham.

230
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There was so much Bitcoin that was actually turning people off in the programming who

231
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are not in that world.

232
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It's like, well, if we want to reach more people, we need to talk about more things.

233
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And so I think the one thing I will say I really enjoy about Noster is, um,

234
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there's a couple of people on there, like close friends of mine, actually,

235
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you're included in this because, you know, you'll post like fishing content.

236
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Like I really like fishing. I really like outdoor stuff.

237
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And I really like, um,

238
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I shooting video about it and posting about it just as like an amateur,

239
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just like fun kind of hobby or whatever. Um,

240
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I don't get anywhere near as much, um,

241
00:20:47,396 --> 00:20:51,576
as much of that content on like Instagram or Twitter,

242
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like in terms of engagement and just people swapping stories and giving cool

243
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tips, like the people who engage in it are really, really into it,

244
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which is awesome. And I just feel you, I don't know,

245
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you just feel the authenticity more than you do on,

246
00:21:06,316 --> 00:21:09,376
on a Twitter where those things fall completely flat.

247
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If you're not servicing the algorithm exactly how, you know,

248
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on the soup of the day kind of algorithm,

249
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It's not going to get anything at all.

250
00:21:18,776 --> 00:21:22,636
I tend to get way more engagement on NOSER for whatever reason.

251
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Not that that's the metric of success, but if you put in work into editing these things and putting them out there, if I don't get any return on it, I'm obviously going to just stop doing that.

252
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But on Noster, I've seen that just posting a couple times a day, you get a lot of cool new people to talk to.

253
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I find people who enjoy jiu-jitsu, people who enjoy Bitcoin, people who enjoy fishing, even spearfishing, like some pretty niche activities.

254
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So I would say, yeah, hopefully those communities are growing out.

255
00:21:53,916 --> 00:21:56,676
I just, I don't know if it's in the right form factor.

256
00:21:57,036 --> 00:21:59,816
I don't know if like Twitter clone is the way, you know.

257
00:21:59,816 --> 00:22:06,536
I really like stuff like zap.stream, like what we're on right now. And I hope that some of these

258
00:22:06,536 --> 00:22:12,316
other applications can scale like bit chat really fun. But, you know, after the first week, kind of

259
00:22:12,316 --> 00:22:17,536
like, Hmm, what would I use this for? It's kind of like a, probably a good tool for like emergency

260
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services or something like that. Or, um, you know, people in like disaster zones, but I don't, I don't,

261
00:22:23,996 --> 00:22:27,996
I don't really know day to day there's a use case for it.

262
00:22:28,516 --> 00:22:33,456
We have a product market fit problem in open source tech.

263
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We're inventing a lot of things that don't solve any tangible problems that the market needs.

264
00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:44,656
Yeah, and with BitShot, I think you're exactly right.

265
00:22:44,796 --> 00:22:47,696
It's not something that I need to use every day.

266
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I could use it every day and there's various geo servers that I could hop on.

267
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But I just like I don't necessarily need to.

268
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There's not a reason for me to go in there every day.

269
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However, like if I'm if you've seen this around the world, whether in a disaster scenario or when government is throttling, you know, communications during protests or something and like downloads explode.

270
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Right. Like they go wild.

271
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And so it's like, you know, it's one of those things where you're like, yeah, yeah, it's you don't need it until you need it.

272
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And then it's like, oh, wow, this is this is really useful.

273
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I'm glad that I have this this P2P tool.

274
00:23:21,076 --> 00:23:27,096
but I hear you on the product market fit side more broadly. I think that that's a very, very

275
00:23:27,096 --> 00:23:33,276
fair observation. And I think that a lot of times it's, it's not necessarily like a bad thing. It's

276
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just a reality of like, look, just because you can build something really, really, really cool

277
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doesn't mean anybody actually like gives a shit about using it. Just because you can create

278
00:23:43,536 --> 00:23:48,416
something that's a really interesting technical solution doesn't mean like that anybody that

279
00:23:48,416 --> 00:23:50,796
you're actually solving that many people's problems.

280
00:23:50,916 --> 00:23:54,076
You might be solving like a problem and some people may really like that.

281
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But like with, you know, so many of these things, it's like, that's really neat.

282
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But like, I don't know how many people are going to use it.

283
00:24:02,056 --> 00:24:03,436
Maybe some will, and maybe that's enough.

284
00:24:03,596 --> 00:24:04,016
You know what I mean?

285
00:24:04,056 --> 00:24:07,456
Like, that's the other thing is like, maybe like not everything needs to have this mass

286
00:24:07,456 --> 00:24:07,696
appeal.

287
00:24:07,776 --> 00:24:11,036
Maybe these, you know, micro apps make a lot more sense.

288
00:24:11,036 --> 00:24:14,996
And it's like, you can just, even if your, your application services, a small number

289
00:24:14,996 --> 00:24:16,576
of people, like that's still a win.

290
00:24:16,576 --> 00:24:21,116
that being said it's like you know but then it's also like you need to be sustainable from

291
00:24:21,116 --> 00:24:24,556
a gay business perspective unless you are planning on living on grants forever

292
00:24:24,556 --> 00:24:30,516
and that's the kicker that's the other side right well that's that's why many of the that's why

293
00:24:30,516 --> 00:24:36,316
like a niche kind of in-group can get really excited about these things but you have to

294
00:24:36,316 --> 00:24:41,736
understand these people are engineers like highly specialized therefore like three highly autistic

295
00:24:41,736 --> 00:24:47,536
engineers that are not good businessmen. They live on charity of NGOs, most of which, you know,

296
00:24:47,576 --> 00:24:52,856
there's like one or two funders of, there's like two of these things that exist in Bitcoin that

297
00:24:52,856 --> 00:24:57,656
give people money. It's this, this circular thing of, you know, you get grants, we throw a luxurious

298
00:24:57,656 --> 00:25:03,456
party. We invite people to make donations, to give grants. You make applications that never seem to

299
00:25:03,456 --> 00:25:11,396
scale. Like, it's like, I don't know, the market would extract, like it come up with solutions to

300
00:25:11,396 --> 00:25:16,256
these problems. But the problem I think that people are having is that they don't turn these

301
00:25:16,256 --> 00:25:23,696
applications into businesses and they're not running businesses. So they wonder why they're

302
00:25:23,696 --> 00:25:29,896
like they have unrealistic expectations for users because they're not under the same pressures that

303
00:25:29,896 --> 00:25:33,876
you know, you would be in the free market because they're living on charity.

304
00:25:33,876 --> 00:25:42,676
which is okay I mean I wouldn't really participate in it I'm not saying these aren't

305
00:25:42,676 --> 00:25:51,076
ideas that are that are not worth funding it's just that I don't know like how much of this

306
00:25:51,076 --> 00:25:57,056
stuff ends up just being you know throwing events for each other to have kind of developer parties

307
00:25:57,056 --> 00:26:03,396
to throw more events to get more grant like it's just when does when does the funding stop like

308
00:26:03,396 --> 00:26:04,456
When do you cut someone off?

309
00:26:04,556 --> 00:26:10,216
When do you, I don't know how you evaluate those things in a sort of NGO funding loop

310
00:26:10,216 --> 00:26:10,576
setting.

311
00:26:10,716 --> 00:26:11,276
You know what I mean?

312
00:26:11,856 --> 00:26:14,736
In the free market, there's a flywheel that makes a lot of sense.

313
00:26:14,736 --> 00:26:19,356
If your product isn't meeting the demands of the market, you'll fail and you'll disappear

314
00:26:19,356 --> 00:26:21,556
and you'll cease to exist and your company will die.

315
00:26:22,156 --> 00:26:22,996
And that's a good thing.

316
00:26:23,376 --> 00:26:24,596
That's what we need.

317
00:26:25,396 --> 00:26:29,616
So I think, I don't know.

318
00:26:29,616 --> 00:26:32,976
I want to be optimistic about Noster, but I think it,

319
00:26:33,096 --> 00:26:36,576
it might be one of those things like no one's figured out how to make it into

320
00:26:36,576 --> 00:26:42,376
a business and therefore it's very kind of like small,

321
00:26:42,856 --> 00:26:46,616
closed in group of people that use it. I don't know how many,

322
00:26:46,716 --> 00:26:48,876
do you have any idea how many people use it day to day now?

323
00:26:49,216 --> 00:26:51,636
Is there any way to, uh, let's see.

324
00:26:51,756 --> 00:26:55,136
There's a couple thousand places that have, I mean, it's,

325
00:26:55,216 --> 00:26:57,556
it's gotta be more than a couple thousand,

326
00:26:57,556 --> 00:27:00,156
but I don't know

327
00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:01,296
I mean let me see

328
00:27:01,296 --> 00:27:03,796
Primal had some decent stats on this

329
00:27:03,796 --> 00:27:05,436
at one point do they still

330
00:27:05,436 --> 00:27:09,296
let's see

331
00:27:09,296 --> 00:27:11,876
I'm not always

332
00:27:11,876 --> 00:27:13,716
so bearish I just I think it's fun

333
00:27:13,716 --> 00:27:15,716
to push these guys

334
00:27:15,716 --> 00:27:16,456
you know what I mean

335
00:27:16,456 --> 00:27:19,616
I think it's important to actually like think about

336
00:27:19,616 --> 00:27:21,436
this stuff deeply too right

337
00:27:21,436 --> 00:27:23,236
to actually say like okay

338
00:27:23,236 --> 00:27:23,436
what

339
00:27:23,436 --> 00:27:27,336
what do we actually need to do

340
00:27:27,336 --> 00:27:30,636
Like if we care about scaling this stuff, if we care about getting more people on board,

341
00:27:30,636 --> 00:27:31,776
like what does that actually mean?

342
00:27:31,776 --> 00:27:32,856
What does that actually look like?

343
00:27:33,316 --> 00:27:38,376
And I think too, on the point of, on the point of like the, the funding side of things, I,

344
00:27:38,376 --> 00:27:49,912
I I would push back on one area of that which is that I agree with you from the free market perspective of like that going to give you the best signal about what is working and

345
00:27:49,912 --> 00:27:50,852
what is not right.

346
00:27:51,392 --> 00:27:57,432
That being said, there is something to be said, I think, for having some developers,

347
00:27:57,432 --> 00:28:04,852
it's like patronage by the Medici family of Leonardo da Vinci.

348
00:28:04,852 --> 00:28:10,612
right? Like if Leonardo da Vinci had to could only invent things and create art and do like that,

349
00:28:10,612 --> 00:28:15,572
if it was profitable at that time, we wouldn't have most of his inventions and art and things

350
00:28:15,572 --> 00:28:19,892
he created, right? Because like a lot of them just had no product market fit, you know, like,

351
00:28:19,892 --> 00:28:26,852
so I do think that patronage enabled by Bitcoin is a really valuable thing. And in this case,

352
00:28:26,852 --> 00:28:29,092
no, we're not talking about the arts, we're talking about technology.

353
00:28:29,092 --> 00:28:36,572
but patronage of technologists of builders i think does have a place because it allows them to just

354
00:28:36,572 --> 00:28:42,332
be able to solely focus on building now you could again to play devil's advocate myself you could

355
00:28:42,332 --> 00:28:48,372
argue that well by not being in tune with the actual market itself perhaps they don't build

356
00:28:48,372 --> 00:28:54,812
what is actually going to be needed by the market or wanted by the market but yeah maybe you know i

357
00:28:54,812 --> 00:29:02,912
I don't know. I see both sides of this here, but I do think that patronage and supporting open source developers definitely has a place.

358
00:29:02,972 --> 00:29:04,752
I agree. I don't know how long it's sustainable.

359
00:29:04,912 --> 00:29:08,112
I mean, if Bitcoin keeps going up forever, maybe it's always sustainable.

360
00:29:08,352 --> 00:29:11,932
I'm not sure, but it's tough. It's tough.

361
00:29:12,652 --> 00:29:19,572
For me, it's like I know that I could create an anonymous Noster account, start posting about developing,

362
00:29:19,572 --> 00:29:25,232
and I could apply for a grant for a messaging app and receive that grant within a few months.

363
00:29:25,332 --> 00:29:28,572
Like I know that that would not be a hard thing to do. Everyone who wants funding and

364
00:29:28,572 --> 00:29:36,112
knows or gets it. Any like serious proposition. Okay. But like who in the world needs another

365
00:29:36,112 --> 00:29:39,972
messaging app? Like how many fucking messaging apps do I have to have on my phone to be able

366
00:29:39,972 --> 00:29:44,552
to talk to someone? You know what I mean? Like there's no market demand for this at all.

367
00:29:45,152 --> 00:29:46,452
Nobody needs it.

368
00:29:46,972 --> 00:29:57,332
I do need better privacy, but it turns out there's not a way to do that that's also convenient and not like a technical hurdle for most people.

369
00:29:57,332 --> 00:30:01,072
So the problem is the most private, like I can't get anyone to use Simplex.

370
00:30:01,692 --> 00:30:02,812
There's no discovery there.

371
00:30:02,852 --> 00:30:04,012
I can't find people on it.

372
00:30:04,152 --> 00:30:09,032
And I surely, I have to ask someone to download something, which is extremely suspicious.

373
00:30:09,492 --> 00:30:13,292
It like kills itself when you try to ask someone to use this privacy tech.

374
00:30:13,292 --> 00:30:14,992
You send them a link and they say that's suspicious.

375
00:30:15,172 --> 00:30:15,892
I'm not down about it.

376
00:30:16,012 --> 00:30:16,392
No way.

377
00:30:18,392 --> 00:30:29,652
So I just, yeah, I'm just, I wish there were more entrepreneurs in the space working with NoSter from that lens.

378
00:30:31,692 --> 00:30:39,272
And I wish there was less funding available so that they could get serious about the projects they're proposing.

379
00:30:40,592 --> 00:30:42,412
I think the same about Bitcoin.

380
00:30:43,292 --> 00:30:50,592
Like, I don't, there's no way that, you know, Bickey is a profitable company.

381
00:30:50,892 --> 00:30:53,772
It's just not possible at this stage, you know what I mean?

382
00:30:53,952 --> 00:31:10,592
Like, you have to look at something like the tradeoffs, the ledger has taken, or scraping by for, you know, a decade with a cold card or something like that to get to a place where you're like a profitable real company.

383
00:31:10,592 --> 00:31:15,772
I think that's really what makes these products better.

384
00:31:16,032 --> 00:31:18,772
When you take it outside of a free market environment,

385
00:31:19,492 --> 00:31:26,972
you end up with weird altruism, kind of utopia tech,

386
00:31:27,552 --> 00:31:30,652
like blue sky, sort of closed communities.

387
00:31:30,972 --> 00:31:32,472
And it's not going to scale.

388
00:31:32,912 --> 00:31:33,352
You know what I mean?

389
00:31:34,752 --> 00:31:39,212
Okay, that's actually a fair point as it relates to blue sky.

390
00:31:39,212 --> 00:31:45,892
like boy i have not opened that up in a while um i like every sometimes i will i opened it up like

391
00:31:45,892 --> 00:31:51,232
right after uh right after charlie kirk was assassinated that was a mistake really that up

392
00:31:51,232 --> 00:31:56,852
my god that was not the not not not a good time to to open that up um there's just sick people

393
00:31:56,852 --> 00:32:01,312
sick people on that up there there are and like and like and that's that's true everywhere right

394
00:32:01,312 --> 00:32:05,512
like no matter like it's not just you know unique to blue sky but i think your larger point of

395
00:32:05,512 --> 00:32:11,052
and this is this is very fair and i don't know how this gets reconciled because on the one hand

396
00:32:11,052 --> 00:32:16,572
you want certain like freedom open source you want open source freedom tech to be built right

397
00:32:16,572 --> 00:32:20,972
like that that's that's generally a good thing if there are technologies that are being leveraged

398
00:32:20,972 --> 00:32:26,152
new protocols being built new uh new applications being built on top of protocols that are already

399
00:32:26,152 --> 00:32:32,672
out there and open and this is all open source that's like generally just a net positive yeah but

400
00:32:32,672 --> 00:32:39,272
the difficulty is that like okay like and there's no money in it people don't pay for it and and i

401
00:32:39,272 --> 00:32:44,312
guess one if you yeah that that is the problem but and if you take it to the next level though perhaps

402
00:32:44,312 --> 00:32:50,992
it's like we are still so early in so much of this right now that maybe you know some of these

403
00:32:50,992 --> 00:32:57,472
things that are being built out like don't necessarily need true product market fit or

404
00:32:57,472 --> 00:33:02,612
widespread adoption right now, but because they are open source, the genie is now out of the

405
00:33:02,612 --> 00:33:07,072
bottle. Now the people that are going to be coming along in the next five, 10, 20 years

406
00:33:07,072 --> 00:33:13,412
have a foundational protocol stack of freedom technologies to be able to build on. And they're

407
00:33:13,412 --> 00:33:17,352
the ones who are going to find product market fit. They're the ones that are going to, you know,

408
00:33:17,352 --> 00:33:22,312
develop things that are, that are people are genuinely clamoring for. But right now it's just

409
00:33:22,312 --> 00:33:24,392
It's like maybe, I mean, it's the same thing with Bitcoin.

410
00:33:24,552 --> 00:33:25,872
Like Bitcoin exists.

411
00:33:26,852 --> 00:33:31,752
Bitcoin exists and has existed and is talked about by not just, you know, random magic

412
00:33:31,752 --> 00:33:36,432
internet money nerds anymore, but fucking Larry Fink of BlackRock and Donald Trump are

413
00:33:36,432 --> 00:33:37,572
talking about Bitcoin, right?

414
00:33:37,952 --> 00:33:41,692
And still, still barely anyone owns Bitcoin.

415
00:33:41,932 --> 00:33:47,972
And even of those who quote own Bitcoin, a far, far smaller percentage have Bitcoin in

416
00:33:47,972 --> 00:33:50,632
self-custody, like really own Bitcoin, not just an IOU.

417
00:33:50,632 --> 00:33:54,892
you right so it's like and and this is we're talking about money we're talking about a thing

418
00:33:54,892 --> 00:33:58,992
that makes you wealthy and most people still don't care you know what i mean so like how can we expect

419
00:33:58,992 --> 00:34:04,952
them to care about like yeah encrypted messaging and relay-based uh communication models like of

420
00:34:04,952 --> 00:34:07,692
course they're not going to give a shit they don't even give a shit about a thing that's going to

421
00:34:07,692 --> 00:34:10,972
make them rich why would they care about something that just you know just does something so small

422
00:34:10,972 --> 00:34:16,372
as to protect their privacy like a lot of people just don't give a fuck you know there's yeah and

423
00:34:16,372 --> 00:34:24,552
And what I really like about what you said there is how long does it take to extract something useful out of this kind of pile of open source tech?

424
00:34:26,552 --> 00:34:29,392
Obviously, the answer is not, you know, two to three years.

425
00:34:29,812 --> 00:34:42,992
If you think about Bitcoin, it was not invented overnight, just like it was decades of small, like technological achievements that were put together, that were discovered.

426
00:34:43,252 --> 00:34:44,132
They weren't even invented.

427
00:34:44,412 --> 00:34:45,932
They were just put together.

428
00:34:45,932 --> 00:34:50,472
it was like half created and half discovered and put together in a way after,

429
00:34:50,632 --> 00:34:55,652
after decades of, of cryptographic sort of breakthroughs. You know,

430
00:34:55,652 --> 00:34:59,652
there's like seven core features that just came together in the perfect way to

431
00:34:59,652 --> 00:35:04,472
make this thing. You know, and some would argue, you know,

432
00:35:04,472 --> 00:35:07,792
for some people it doesn't have what it needs to have. Some would say, you know,

433
00:35:07,812 --> 00:35:11,052
it needs to be more private. It doesn't need to be scared. You know what I mean?

434
00:35:11,132 --> 00:35:15,392
But there's the, the, the core invention, like, yeah, it was extracted,

435
00:35:15,392 --> 00:35:19,212
but it took a long time. The question, I guess, for Nostra is like, okay,

436
00:35:19,212 --> 00:35:21,912
how long is that going to take before someone comes along and makes a viable

437
00:35:21,912 --> 00:35:25,592
business out of this, uh, this scales and what will it look like?

438
00:35:26,032 --> 00:35:29,732
I'm kind of with, um, like I have a lot of,

439
00:35:29,732 --> 00:35:36,352
I would bet that it has something to do with e-cash, um,

440
00:35:36,452 --> 00:35:41,552
and actually like financial networking, um, and, and maybe,

441
00:35:41,552 --> 00:35:43,912
encrypted communications

442
00:35:43,912 --> 00:35:46,052
or mesh networks.

443
00:35:46,312 --> 00:35:48,072
Maybe someone can beat out the cell

444
00:35:48,072 --> 00:35:49,912
networks over

445
00:35:49,912 --> 00:35:51,932
Nose to Relay somehow. I don't know.

446
00:35:52,112 --> 00:35:53,452
I don't know what it looks like, but

447
00:35:53,452 --> 00:35:56,152
I don't think it's going to be the first iteration.

448
00:35:56,452 --> 00:35:57,832
It's not going to be a Twitter clone.

449
00:35:58,992 --> 00:35:59,212
Yeah.

450
00:35:59,732 --> 00:36:02,352
I'm super bullish on eCash to that

451
00:36:02,352 --> 00:36:02,552
note.

452
00:36:02,552 --> 00:36:05,692
Yeah, me too.

453
00:36:07,132 --> 00:36:07,812
And stables.

454
00:36:08,372 --> 00:36:10,032
I think this stuff is... I don't know.

455
00:36:10,492 --> 00:36:11,352
It's interesting.

456
00:36:11,552 --> 00:36:16,312
it's not stuff that I need in my day-to-day life, but there, you know,

457
00:36:16,512 --> 00:36:20,172
that's where it's like, we're very financially privileged here.

458
00:36:21,492 --> 00:36:26,192
Same thing with stable coins. Like we don't, don't need them, but other people,

459
00:36:26,312 --> 00:36:30,072
I know a lot of people that use them every day, need them to get paid, you know,

460
00:36:30,072 --> 00:36:32,692
cause their own currency is, is a useless,

461
00:36:32,932 --> 00:36:37,412
their own financial infrastructure is way worse than what we have with the

462
00:36:37,412 --> 00:36:37,672
dollar.

463
00:36:37,672 --> 00:36:44,112
you know uh a slight sidebar but an example of like not needing something until i needed it and

464
00:36:44,112 --> 00:36:47,912
like thinking something was probably just like an over-engineered technical solution that was like

465
00:36:47,912 --> 00:36:52,472
you know cool for cool for super autistic nerds but not actually like something that was useful

466
00:36:52,472 --> 00:36:57,352
but then i actually needed to use i was in uh i was in madeira and i was hanging out with some

467
00:36:57,352 --> 00:37:03,832
some bitcoiners who were hacking around on on stuff and uh and i was i was trying to call a bolt

468
00:37:03,832 --> 00:37:08,432
for carl and i like it was like i don't know like early in the morning at that point you know we'd

469
00:37:08,432 --> 00:37:14,332
been hanging out uh doing some doing some eating of steak doing some drinking uh having a good time

470
00:37:14,332 --> 00:37:19,912
talking about subverting the state and for whatever reason like my roaming plan on my phone had just

471
00:37:19,912 --> 00:37:26,172
like uh just completely like died out like i could not get any sort of uh any sort of internet access

472
00:37:26,172 --> 00:37:30,592
at all neither could carla i don't know what happened we just like he said didn't matter yeah

473
00:37:30,592 --> 00:37:33,372
But we were just totally screwed.

474
00:37:33,432 --> 00:37:35,012
So could not access the internet at all.

475
00:37:35,812 --> 00:37:41,912
And we were like, okay, can we connect to the Wi-Fi here?

476
00:37:42,992 --> 00:37:47,572
And now granted, this friend could have just given me the Wi-Fi password.

477
00:37:47,632 --> 00:37:49,892
But he was like, I want to show you how something works.

478
00:37:49,912 --> 00:37:50,872
I'm like, okay, here we go.

479
00:37:51,312 --> 00:37:52,852
But it ended up being really cool.

480
00:37:53,092 --> 00:37:57,492
It was basically, I think they called it a toll gate for the Wi-Fi.

481
00:37:57,492 --> 00:37:59,912
So basically, you can pay for a limited amount of Wi-Fi access.

482
00:37:59,912 --> 00:38:03,152
But how do you pay for the access to the Wi-Fi when you don't have Wi-Fi?

483
00:38:03,252 --> 00:38:03,972
Like you don't have internet.

484
00:38:04,112 --> 00:38:05,272
You're not connected, right?

485
00:38:05,332 --> 00:38:06,192
So how do you do that?

486
00:38:06,372 --> 00:38:06,992
Oh, interesting.

487
00:38:07,172 --> 00:38:12,712
I did it literally by sending him physical or e-cash tokens offline.

488
00:38:13,272 --> 00:38:13,332
Nice.

489
00:38:13,332 --> 00:38:18,312
By scanning an offline QR code, sending e-cash tokens, and then that paid the toll gate.

490
00:38:19,012 --> 00:38:23,452
And I was like, okay, like that's actually pretty darn cool.

491
00:38:23,592 --> 00:38:26,332
And then I was able to, you know, I got the internet and was able to use it.

492
00:38:26,852 --> 00:38:29,592
Granted, you could still argue like that's a bit of an over-engineered solution.

493
00:38:29,592 --> 00:38:54,852
But it's like, but it's also kind of not like, you know, it makes it really, really convenient to be able to add in to public Wi Fi, this capability, that people actually can, you know, can pay for it if they need to, but also just like, it's, it's amazing to see what eCash can do. And I like, that's one of those things where I'm really glad that there's, you know, like, Cashew is getting, is getting funding, right. And that people building on Cashew are getting funding.

494
00:38:54,852 --> 00:38:58,572
because like e-cash to me is like when I see all these z-cash people especially who are

495
00:38:58,572 --> 00:39:05,792
totally organic and not at all just vcs trying to pump their bags totally organic but when I see all

496
00:39:05,792 --> 00:39:09,632
them talk about like oh you know like can't believe bitcoiners don't care about privacy it's like well

497
00:39:09,632 --> 00:39:16,512
what we do we're just building it in layers right and so I think that stuff like e-cash is is super

498
00:39:16,512 --> 00:39:20,492
important and I'm super bullish on it just because like the shit that it can do is kind of like

499
00:39:20,492 --> 00:39:26,652
mind-blowing like the fact that it is like a bear token like it's it's kind of nuts and yes again

500
00:39:26,652 --> 00:39:30,492
trade-offs right trade-offs always acknowledge the trade-offs like you can get rugged by a mint

501
00:39:30,492 --> 00:39:37,452
but like are you going to get rugged by every mint all at once probably not but yeah yeah

502
00:39:37,452 --> 00:39:43,252
yeah i don't know i don't know where it fits into day-to-day life but those those experiments are

503
00:39:43,252 --> 00:39:49,212
really uh they're really wonderful and fun and uh you know i think i think there's a place for that

504
00:39:49,212 --> 00:40:01,132
But I think still kind of the core mission is probably getting people to use base layer money in a way that's not ruggable.

505
00:40:01,472 --> 00:40:05,512
I mean, to me, that just seems like the most important kind of cypherpunk thing we can do.

506
00:40:06,792 --> 00:40:08,332
I'm not totally with.

507
00:40:10,832 --> 00:40:12,152
Who is the.

508
00:40:14,572 --> 00:40:19,052
Unchained Capital guy, Parker Lewis, who thinks that there's a distraction.

509
00:40:19,212 --> 00:40:26,912
necessarily. But I don't know if it's the most important thing, you know, now that it already

510
00:40:26,912 --> 00:40:30,912
exists in a way that you can communicate. Like, I think really, when you look at the problems of

511
00:40:30,912 --> 00:40:36,792
the world, like, for me, I would prioritize, you know, fixing the money, monetary system,

512
00:40:36,792 --> 00:40:43,852
and like weeding out corruption and debasement by because we could we could force, you know,

513
00:40:43,852 --> 00:40:48,812
conversion to Bitcoin. Like we have forced Bitcoin upon the world and made people

514
00:40:48,812 --> 00:40:54,612
adopt it and change the laws around it and forced it into, you know, treasuries and retirement funds

515
00:40:54,612 --> 00:41:00,652
and businesses. And, um, yeah, we should continue to, that's like the real silent revolution.

516
00:41:00,832 --> 00:41:05,892
And like the, like on the, the, the flip side, like the things that, you know,

517
00:41:05,892 --> 00:41:13,972
cash app and square have been doing are very very cool um you know getting forcing merchant

518
00:41:13,972 --> 00:41:18,752
adoption i wish they were a little more forceful about it it'd be cool you know it should be

519
00:41:18,752 --> 00:41:23,832
default on that would be really nice yeah just just just push it on for everyone just push it

520
00:41:23,832 --> 00:41:27,912
on it's the extra qr code if you're gonna push fucking tips on me everywhere i go you know what

521
00:41:27,912 --> 00:41:45,548
I mean like we had a self car wash like at least but yeah allow me to pay in Bitcoin everywhere Um no but that yeah that like leaps and bounds uh really leading by example i think it took a really long time i not sure why it took so long

522
00:41:45,548 --> 00:41:53,628
but it's finally here i'm grateful for it um i think people need touch points like i've always

523
00:41:53,628 --> 00:41:58,948
said this it takes two or three touch points to be able to understand like emergent technology and

524
00:41:58,948 --> 00:42:00,648
to see the need for it.

525
00:42:00,648 --> 00:42:02,688
And like you had one with the,

526
00:42:02,688 --> 00:42:03,608
with the toll bridge,

527
00:42:03,808 --> 00:42:04,148
right.

528
00:42:04,568 --> 00:42:07,648
For e-cash probably plus a couple other ones where you're like,

529
00:42:07,688 --> 00:42:07,828
okay,

530
00:42:07,828 --> 00:42:08,748
this is an important,

531
00:42:08,748 --> 00:42:10,908
like viable technology that I need.

532
00:42:13,008 --> 00:42:13,768
For Bitcoin,

533
00:42:13,908 --> 00:42:14,528
it's no different.

534
00:42:14,948 --> 00:42:16,248
And when you dig into it,

535
00:42:16,268 --> 00:42:17,408
it's endlessly complicated.

536
00:42:17,688 --> 00:42:20,848
So how do you provide people with those simple touch points?

537
00:42:22,428 --> 00:42:22,868
Yeah,

538
00:42:22,888 --> 00:42:23,768
I think that's one of them.

539
00:42:24,248 --> 00:42:27,448
I think probably seeing it in the news every day and thinking they could get

540
00:42:27,448 --> 00:42:31,828
rich from it is probably the biggest, like kind of bright neon sign about it.

541
00:42:32,908 --> 00:42:36,948
But like practical tactile experience with it through, through,

542
00:42:37,088 --> 00:42:40,768
through devices on payment terminals will probably be the second,

543
00:42:40,928 --> 00:42:43,128
like the first time someone receives it, you know,

544
00:42:43,128 --> 00:42:47,508
that's kind of a life-changing moment. If they're smart, you know,

545
00:42:47,668 --> 00:42:50,268
if they're, if they're open-minded, if they're not,

546
00:42:50,268 --> 00:42:52,228
they won't recognize the opportunity.

547
00:42:53,608 --> 00:42:56,948
It is like a, I mean, at least for me, like the first time I,

548
00:42:57,448 --> 00:43:01,768
I got Bitcoin for doing something like not just me buying Bitcoin on a,

549
00:43:01,828 --> 00:43:05,668
on an exchange, but like getting Bitcoin in return for doing something.

550
00:43:05,748 --> 00:43:10,108
I was like, Oh shit, this is so much better. Like this is so much,

551
00:43:10,148 --> 00:43:13,448
like this is way better than buying it. Like buying Bitcoin is great.

552
00:43:13,868 --> 00:43:17,028
Earning Bitcoin is incredible. And like when you, when you do like,

553
00:43:17,028 --> 00:43:19,488
and when you see that and it's like, Oh, I provided my, my,

554
00:43:19,608 --> 00:43:24,728
my time and energy did work for this. And now I have Bitcoin like that.

555
00:43:24,728 --> 00:43:29,068
you feel like you are, I mean, you are, you're living in the future because it's not evenly

556
00:43:29,068 --> 00:43:34,148
distributed yet to everyone. And like anybody who is able right now to do any sort of work.

557
00:43:34,228 --> 00:43:39,108
And there are, man, like the gig economy is not such a bad thing. If you're getting paid in Bitcoin

558
00:43:39,108 --> 00:43:42,868
for the gigs you're doing, like if you're getting paid in fiat, maybe not ideal, but if you're

559
00:43:42,868 --> 00:43:46,588
getting paid in Bitcoin, like you right now, like if you're a pleb stacking right now, I just saw,

560
00:43:46,668 --> 00:43:52,188
you know, we're, we just, we just kissed, uh, into the 87s right now. And I don't love to talk

561
00:43:52,188 --> 00:43:59,268
about price but we we just did yeah seven eight one six at the time of uh recording this which is

562
00:43:59,268 --> 00:44:05,048
yeah let's do it do it thursday november 20th you know i'll smash i'll smash by a little bit too

563
00:44:05,048 --> 00:44:10,068
right now but but if you're listening to this right now and it's like oh bitcoin's dipping

564
00:44:10,068 --> 00:44:17,008
it's like you know what you have a chance right now to accumulate bitcoin that you like five years

565
00:44:17,008 --> 00:44:21,328
from now it's going to be worth more in fiat dollars than it is today granted if you're

566
00:44:21,328 --> 00:44:24,628
denominating it in fiat dollars and you're not thinking of it as your piece of the whole 21

567
00:44:24,628 --> 00:44:31,928
million pie it's uh you know that there's a little mentality shift that's required there but for now

568
00:44:31,928 --> 00:44:37,768
like we do measure it in fiat right whichever fiat you happen to use all right i just i just i just

569
00:44:37,768 --> 00:44:44,568
bought some sats boom it's double checking that i had any fiat left i do that's my biggest problem

570
00:44:44,568 --> 00:44:49,528
you know what you can buy. Yeah. That's my biggest problem. But you know, like one of the reasons

571
00:44:49,528 --> 00:44:54,648
it's awesome to earn Bitcoin is because you don't think about it from a cost basis perspective.

572
00:44:54,648 --> 00:44:59,508
You're not like, oh, I bought that Bitcoin for a hundred K or whatever. And now it's, you know,

573
00:44:59,528 --> 00:45:04,748
now it's quote worth 90 K. It's like, no, no, I earned that Bitcoin. Here's how much Bitcoin I

574
00:45:04,748 --> 00:45:09,908
earned for the amount of work that I provided. Like it's a completely different mentality shift

575
00:45:09,908 --> 00:45:15,068
there. And I think that it's, it's very valuable for people to experience that it's, it's hard

576
00:45:15,068 --> 00:45:20,648
pricing things in Bitcoin. I initially tried pricing a podcast sponsorships in Bitcoin and,

577
00:45:20,648 --> 00:45:25,268
and the difficulty was most sponsors were like, well, like that's, that's cool and everything,

578
00:45:25,368 --> 00:45:28,588
Walker, but like our accounting department can't really work with that. Can you like,

579
00:45:28,928 --> 00:45:33,668
can you just price it in dollars for us? But you know, that, that's a, that's an interesting thing

580
00:45:33,668 --> 00:45:37,308
as well. Cause then it's like, okay, if you're pricing a service you provide in Bitcoin,

581
00:45:37,308 --> 00:45:42,628
that service should get cheaper over time unless the service you're providing becomes more valuable

582
00:45:42,628 --> 00:45:47,988
over time as well so it's kind of an interesting incentive to create more value for whatever

583
00:45:47,988 --> 00:45:53,688
service you're providing than the value of of bitcoin that is you know that is appreciated at

584
00:45:53,688 --> 00:45:58,168
that same time it's like it's a real mind fuck honestly like it's a real mind fuck i don't know

585
00:45:58,168 --> 00:46:02,308
if you're setting me up for softball here but this is this was the whole premise of why we created

586
00:46:02,308 --> 00:46:06,968
rocks them. I actually wasn't even. But yeah, that's a perfect transition.

587
00:46:07,388 --> 00:46:12,928
This is actually the whole premise of why we built the exchange in a media company is because

588
00:46:12,928 --> 00:46:19,768
people who are already on a Bitcoin standard, whatever that means to you, even just generally,

589
00:46:19,768 --> 00:46:25,488
like you have a decent amount of Bitcoin, maybe you're really invested in its success and future.

590
00:46:25,488 --> 00:46:30,448
they don't think about risk management correctly.

591
00:46:31,408 --> 00:46:37,428
Most of the people that I know, people, group chat, blow me up right now about all the opportunity on the Bitcoin treasuries market.

592
00:46:37,768 --> 00:46:43,888
Like, there is no opportunity there that's correctly priced if it's not in Bitcoin terms.

593
00:46:43,888 --> 00:46:51,008
Like, if it's in fiat terms, you're not accounting for the hurdle rate that is the opportunity cost of just holding Bitcoin,

594
00:46:51,008 --> 00:46:54,008
which means you're making a tremendous error

595
00:46:54,008 --> 00:46:56,048
in all of your trading

596
00:46:56,048 --> 00:46:59,888
and your hurdle rate is actually much higher

597
00:46:59,888 --> 00:47:02,308
than you could have ever conceived of

598
00:47:02,308 --> 00:47:03,988
if you're trading over a long time

599
00:47:03,988 --> 00:47:05,808
especially if you're trading in short time

600
00:47:05,808 --> 00:47:08,888
because the short term volatility of Bitcoin is very high

601
00:47:08,888 --> 00:47:14,408
so when we thought about this exchange

602
00:47:14,408 --> 00:47:16,328
it's like, okay, we need a place

603
00:47:16,328 --> 00:47:20,148
where people can buy and sell oil contracts, gold

604
00:47:20,148 --> 00:47:23,168
first of all, do something with their Bitcoin.

605
00:47:24,648 --> 00:47:27,628
Like if you acknowledge that, okay, there is a way to

606
00:47:27,628 --> 00:47:33,308
to analyze risk on Bitcoin terms.

607
00:47:33,828 --> 00:47:35,828
So there are ways to outperform Bitcoin.

608
00:47:36,008 --> 00:47:37,028
We know people do this.

609
00:47:37,108 --> 00:47:38,248
We know people try to do this.

610
00:47:38,368 --> 00:47:39,068
It's not for everybody.

611
00:47:39,188 --> 00:47:40,728
Not recommending people do this,

612
00:47:41,148 --> 00:47:43,028
but there's an appetite to do it for sure.

613
00:47:43,388 --> 00:47:46,068
There's people that want higher returns than that.

614
00:47:46,488 --> 00:47:48,248
They want to put all their capital use,

615
00:47:48,248 --> 00:47:52,588
especially like very wealthy people and also people who don't think they have enough Bitcoin.

616
00:47:52,848 --> 00:47:58,308
Very, very small holders. They want to catch up. Okay, so how do they do it? Well, if they're

617
00:47:58,308 --> 00:48:04,868
going to do it on the stock market, it's going to be a real pain in the ass to mark the price

618
00:48:04,868 --> 00:48:09,288
to Bitcoin's price every day because everything's denominated in dollars or like the fiat currency

619
00:48:09,288 --> 00:48:14,308
of your choice, which is de-basic. So if you denominate it in Bitcoin, you can at least

620
00:48:14,308 --> 00:48:20,768
price the risk appropriately and you can make intelligent trades. And I think that's a good

621
00:48:20,768 --> 00:48:26,628
and useful service for people because we're not, they're not all, you know, let's just hodl forever

622
00:48:26,628 --> 00:48:32,388
and never spend. That's like far from the reality. Like the truth is we're a lot closer to like a

623
00:48:32,388 --> 00:48:38,108
Weimar Germany. Like the end is nigh. Everybody's trading and gambling, you know, all day and night

624
00:48:38,108 --> 00:48:44,908
long to try to get ahead. Okay. If they can't be, you know, convinced not to do stupid things like

625
00:48:44,908 --> 00:48:50,708
that, like how do we at least give them, you know, tools to do it, um, in a way where they're

626
00:48:50,708 --> 00:48:55,668
seeing clearly. Um, and that, that, that comes from, I think, pressing things in Bitcoin.

627
00:48:57,188 --> 00:49:03,908
And also, uh, you know, at the end, I think, I think people will trade for that way for a little

628
00:49:03,908 --> 00:49:08,928
a while and what it'll do is help them realize they're not good traders hopefully if they're

629
00:49:08,928 --> 00:49:12,808
like self-aware you know what i mean like i think i was telling you before the show like i'm a big

630
00:49:12,808 --> 00:49:18,828
allen markets user i always like to put like a hundred dollars on allen markets a thousand bucks

631
00:49:18,828 --> 00:49:25,168
something like that trade it for a few months uh just to acknowledge how bad of a trader i am

632
00:49:25,168 --> 00:49:31,668
you know what i mean like you very i do the exact i do the exact same thing like in in like my

633
00:49:31,668 --> 00:49:37,948
Robinhood app, like with a, I'm not talking with like a lot of money, right? Because my money is,

634
00:49:37,948 --> 00:49:43,328
you know, my money is, well, Bitcoin is my money. But I'll mess around for like a little while.

635
00:49:44,108 --> 00:49:49,408
And like, but again, it's denominated in fiat. And I know that, right? And so I always come back

636
00:49:49,408 --> 00:49:54,608
to like, was I able to actually convert this into more Bitcoin than what I started with? And

637
00:49:54,608 --> 00:49:58,508
a couple of times, the answer has been yes. And it's like, great. But I also had to like

638
00:49:58,508 --> 00:50:02,588
wasted a bunch of time doing that trading. I also had to, you know, pay capital gains in this

639
00:50:02,588 --> 00:50:06,968
because I'm using a centralized, you know, exchange, even if I wasn't using a centralized

640
00:50:06,968 --> 00:50:12,648
one, though, I would totally pay the capital gains on it. Just to be clear there, to be very clear

641
00:50:12,648 --> 00:50:19,568
for anyone who's an IRS agent listening. But like, most of the time, I fucking don't outperform

642
00:50:19,568 --> 00:50:23,708
Bitcoin, like in getting more dollars doesn't that doesn't fucking matter. I don't want more

643
00:50:23,708 --> 00:50:26,988
I want more Bitcoin, but I'm not a great trader.

644
00:50:27,128 --> 00:50:31,808
A couple of times I've made like the good trades I've made have been buying like Bitcoin

645
00:50:31,808 --> 00:50:38,168
miners when they were really cheap and then waiting a long time and they go up a lot.

646
00:50:38,448 --> 00:50:40,488
It's not me like trading back and forth all the time.

647
00:50:40,588 --> 00:50:43,508
It's like literally just buying and holding.

648
00:50:43,828 --> 00:50:47,248
But it's a good reminder that I'm not a very good trader.

649
00:50:47,468 --> 00:50:53,608
And I might be even an okay trader in dollar terms, but I'm a bad trader in Bitcoin.

650
00:50:53,708 --> 00:50:57,628
terms. And I think that's, that's like what it comes down to, right? It's like, if you're measuring

651
00:50:57,628 --> 00:51:03,168
your ability in dollars, you're necessarily mispricing that ability. You know what I mean?

652
00:51:03,908 --> 00:51:10,468
Yeah. Like the, the only trades that I've made that are good have been long-term like year plus.

653
00:51:11,548 --> 00:51:16,128
And they've been just early opportunities. And yeah, like some of them have been treasury

654
00:51:16,128 --> 00:51:25,568
companies, miners last cycle, but it's not, it's nothing I would bet the house on. You know, it's,

655
00:51:25,568 --> 00:51:31,968
it's stuff that I'll kind of assess, like how much would I be comfortable completely losing on this?

656
00:51:32,288 --> 00:51:37,208
And that's, that's the max that I'll put in. And it's always, you know, even if it grows at the

657
00:51:37,208 --> 00:51:43,408
start, it's no more than five, 10% of the whole portfolio ever goes into something other than

658
00:51:43,408 --> 00:51:48,488
Bitcoin. And normally, like if you just pick a random day, I don't have exposure to anything

659
00:51:48,488 --> 00:51:54,648
except for it. Because, yeah, I found that of all the, you know, couple of years that I've been

660
00:51:54,648 --> 00:52:00,768
using like whatever Robinhood or Ellen Markets making those trades.

661
00:52:02,008 --> 00:52:10,288
There's very few of them where I wound up with more Bitcoin at the end for those small high

662
00:52:10,288 --> 00:52:14,288
activity where I'm just like, no, I'm just going to let my emotions, my instincts

663
00:52:14,288 --> 00:52:18,408
scare me and I'm going to try to make analysis. And then you give up on your thesis

664
00:52:18,408 --> 00:52:22,388
of course and ruin the whole plan and do something else. No, the only things that have worked

665
00:52:22,388 --> 00:52:26,268
out for me are buying and just not selling

666
00:52:26,268 --> 00:52:30,488
for years for a long period of time. And then

667
00:52:30,488 --> 00:52:34,328
just being very, very early with MetaPlanet

668
00:52:34,328 --> 00:52:38,368
in particular. But I'm not even sure that the treasuries are a good play anymore.

669
00:52:38,368 --> 00:52:41,668
It was just, I acknowledge that was very high risk thing to do.

670
00:52:42,148 --> 00:52:45,988
But the other thing you learn from like using those services and trading,

671
00:52:46,088 --> 00:52:49,008
and I think people will learn it from Roxxon from our exchange is that,

672
00:52:49,008 --> 00:52:54,308
yeah, sure. You can outperform Bitcoin, but the risk is tremendous.

673
00:52:54,848 --> 00:53:00,208
Like the leverage you're going to take on to try to do it is going to wipe you

674
00:53:00,208 --> 00:53:03,208
out more times than not. Yeah.

675
00:53:03,848 --> 00:53:07,508
So I appreciate you coming with that perspective because like, yeah,

676
00:53:07,508 --> 00:53:11,488
like this is something you're, you know, you're a part of Roxham. I'm also for anyone who's been

677
00:53:11,488 --> 00:53:15,248
paying attention. Like I've been streaming on Roxham as well on the media side. We can maybe

678
00:53:15,248 --> 00:53:20,508
talk about that as well. Cause I think it is an interesting approach to getting Bitcoin out in

679
00:53:20,508 --> 00:53:25,368
front of more people in sort of a not so in your face way in terms of like your long-term strategy

680
00:53:25,368 --> 00:53:29,028
there. But on the exchange side, like, I mean, you're literally saying like, look, yeah, you can

681
00:53:29,028 --> 00:53:34,048
do this and we make this available, but like odds are it's not going to go well. And like, you should

682
00:53:34,048 --> 00:53:40,268
just stack spot Bitcoin. Like that's the thing like for, for pretty much like for pretty much

683
00:53:40,268 --> 00:53:44,608
everyone, especially if you're just starting out, I think that that's like, that's why so many people

684
00:53:44,608 --> 00:53:50,028
get sucked into shit coins is because an American hodl talks about this, you know, people wanted to

685
00:53:50,028 --> 00:53:54,908
like teleport to be an OG, you know, and you think you just make that one, find that one shit coin

686
00:53:54,908 --> 00:53:59,288
that's going to thousand X and like, and then you get to be an OG, right. And you'll totally convert

687
00:53:59,288 --> 00:54:01,228
it all into Bitcoin once that hits

688
00:54:01,228 --> 00:54:02,608
and not just be a DJ.

689
00:54:03,428 --> 00:54:04,188
It's hard.

690
00:54:04,908 --> 00:54:07,148
You're not going to teleport to the LG either.

691
00:54:07,888 --> 00:54:09,208
Most of my friends that

692
00:54:09,208 --> 00:54:11,228
we started pretty much

693
00:54:11,228 --> 00:54:12,908
around the same time period buying

694
00:54:12,908 --> 00:54:15,248
MetaPlanet and most

695
00:54:15,248 --> 00:54:16,648
of them round tripped it completely.

696
00:54:18,228 --> 00:54:19,388
They didn't sell.

697
00:54:20,848 --> 00:54:21,408
They're

698
00:54:21,408 --> 00:54:23,148
still up but it's like they

699
00:54:23,148 --> 00:54:24,328
missed out on

700
00:54:24,328 --> 00:54:26,308
30x

701
00:54:26,308 --> 00:54:29,168
opportunities

702
00:54:29,168 --> 00:54:35,088
because you're just, like the market plays psychological games with you

703
00:54:35,088 --> 00:54:36,568
and you're not special.

704
00:54:36,928 --> 00:54:37,888
You're not immune to them.

705
00:54:38,068 --> 00:54:40,568
You're not immune to, you know,

706
00:54:40,668 --> 00:54:43,468
you're not going to be able to be fearful when others are greedy.

707
00:54:43,608 --> 00:54:44,248
You're going to be greedy.

708
00:54:45,208 --> 00:54:45,908
This is hard.

709
00:54:47,708 --> 00:54:52,508
That's the one, like, and that's exactly how I am with everything

710
00:54:52,508 --> 00:54:54,128
except for Bitcoin, which is,

711
00:54:54,228 --> 00:54:56,368
and maybe that's just getting to a point in my Bitcoin journey

712
00:54:56,368 --> 00:54:59,368
where I've separated it so much from everything else

713
00:54:59,368 --> 00:55:02,348
that I can actually be greedy when others are fearful.

714
00:55:02,528 --> 00:55:03,968
Like right now I am super greedy.

715
00:55:04,088 --> 00:55:04,848
Like I'm trying to figure out

716
00:55:04,848 --> 00:55:06,268
how to be able to stack more sats.

717
00:55:06,368 --> 00:55:07,568
And I know that we might go lower.

718
00:55:08,108 --> 00:55:09,408
We might kiss 58K.

719
00:55:09,528 --> 00:55:10,628
I have no fucking idea.

720
00:55:10,808 --> 00:55:12,028
58K is an incredible meme.

721
00:55:12,528 --> 00:55:14,648
I think that they've got some sort of 58K cabal

722
00:55:14,648 --> 00:55:15,688
that they're running.

723
00:55:16,468 --> 00:55:17,988
They're clearly manipulating the price,

724
00:55:18,068 --> 00:55:19,188
the 58K memers.

725
00:55:20,188 --> 00:55:22,548
But if Bitcoin does go lower,

726
00:55:22,688 --> 00:55:24,108
like, okay, I'm going to do whatever I can

727
00:55:24,108 --> 00:55:24,928
to still acquire more.

728
00:55:24,928 --> 00:55:27,688
Like that, I am very greedy right now

729
00:55:27,688 --> 00:55:29,388
because everyone is freaking out

730
00:55:29,424 --> 00:55:32,424
so much. And you know what I mean? Like when I, when I see people coming out of the woodwork,

731
00:55:32,484 --> 00:55:37,184
the gold bugs, the fiat economists, and they're just dunking so hard on Bitcoin right now,

732
00:55:37,184 --> 00:55:42,964
they're gleeful. That's when I'm like, okay, this, this is the, this is the sign I was looking

733
00:55:42,964 --> 00:55:47,744
for. I was buying a DCA every hour of every day with like a, you know, a small amount.

734
00:55:48,264 --> 00:55:53,844
Cause I just spread it out as much as I can. Yeah. But then like when these times hit, I'm like,

735
00:55:54,064 --> 00:55:59,324
I need to find out how to either earn more Bitcoin or acquire more fiat to buy more Bitcoin. But

736
00:55:59,324 --> 00:56:03,124
I need to do hopefully both. I'm thinking, yeah, that's,

737
00:56:03,224 --> 00:56:05,604
that's the correct way to think about it. You got to increase your,

738
00:56:05,964 --> 00:56:08,744
decrease your expenditure and increase your cash inflows.

739
00:56:11,444 --> 00:56:15,224
I think I thought we were going to either hit 140 or,

740
00:56:15,224 --> 00:56:19,044
or don't to 70. So, you know, one of those two things,

741
00:56:19,124 --> 00:56:22,864
hopefully will be true. I think we're going to go to 70, probably lower,

742
00:56:23,044 --> 00:56:24,724
probably 58. That would be awesome.

743
00:56:25,224 --> 00:56:29,064
That would be a second lease on lice. That's literally on,

744
00:56:29,064 --> 00:56:34,484
on life that's really a second that's an opportunity that like we don't even deserve

745
00:56:34,484 --> 00:56:40,884
as a culture but oh my god we're gonna get it again you know just multiplying your wealth

746
00:56:40,884 --> 00:56:46,704
every year it's crazy like if that does happen like it's gonna be painful like undoubtedly it's

747
00:56:46,704 --> 00:56:51,724
gonna be painful the vibes will be super terrible but that is gonna be if that does happen that is

748
00:56:51,724 --> 00:56:58,624
an insane opportunity that we that we don't deserve you're right if if bitcoiners are doing

749
00:56:58,624 --> 00:57:03,804
what they say they're doing, which is holding and not selling, is it really that painful

750
00:57:03,804 --> 00:57:05,384
for it to go down?

751
00:57:05,804 --> 00:57:07,804
It doesn't affect me because I don't sell.

752
00:57:08,064 --> 00:57:10,624
I have a stack that I just never have sold.

753
00:57:10,744 --> 00:57:11,624
I just don't sell it.

754
00:57:12,904 --> 00:57:14,404
It just only goes up.

755
00:57:14,624 --> 00:57:17,124
And if you're denominating in Bitcoin terms, you're up.

756
00:57:17,484 --> 00:57:22,284
If you're denominating in fiat terms, if you can't stomach that number going down, yeah,

757
00:57:22,304 --> 00:57:23,664
you're going to have a rough bear market.

758
00:57:24,804 --> 00:57:27,704
The reality is most of the time we're in a bear market.

759
00:57:27,704 --> 00:57:33,104
It's like very few and far between where we're going parabolically upward on fiat terms.

760
00:57:33,484 --> 00:57:37,024
But people need to remember the principle here.

761
00:57:37,144 --> 00:57:39,184
Like we're denominating in Bitcoin.

762
00:57:39,424 --> 00:57:41,204
If that number is going up, you're good.

763
00:57:41,324 --> 00:57:44,524
I promise you, you know, 20 years from now, that's the only number that matters.

764
00:57:44,644 --> 00:57:46,024
It's the only number that matters now.

765
00:57:46,584 --> 00:57:48,364
The rest of the world just hasn't caught up yet.

766
00:57:48,444 --> 00:57:53,184
If you have none, zero exposure, that's just the wrong answer.

767
00:57:53,384 --> 00:57:54,564
You just don't own anything.

768
00:57:54,564 --> 00:57:57,404
You have a debasing monopoly money from the government.

769
00:57:57,704 --> 00:57:59,664
you know what I mean?

770
00:58:01,664 --> 00:58:02,684
You need real,

771
00:58:02,884 --> 00:58:03,864
you need hard assets.

772
00:58:05,904 --> 00:58:06,344
Yeah,

773
00:58:06,424 --> 00:58:06,764
it's,

774
00:58:06,864 --> 00:58:09,584
it is a funny thing.

775
00:58:09,844 --> 00:58:11,904
I think that people were like,

776
00:58:12,004 --> 00:58:13,624
and I'm speaking about myself here too.

777
00:58:13,664 --> 00:58:15,224
Like I'm not immune to like,

778
00:58:15,384 --> 00:58:18,924
obviously I have all the same human emotions when I watch Bitcoin's price

779
00:58:18,924 --> 00:58:20,704
that everyone else does because we are like,

780
00:58:21,524 --> 00:58:23,524
the psychology is pretty universal there.

781
00:58:23,944 --> 00:58:24,244
And it's,

782
00:58:24,944 --> 00:58:25,404
it is,

783
00:58:25,544 --> 00:58:26,404
you always have like,

784
00:58:26,424 --> 00:58:27,324
when you see Bitcoin dipping,

785
00:58:27,324 --> 00:58:32,244
it's always like, oh, well, I could have bought, I could have bought more sats for my dollars if I

786
00:58:32,244 --> 00:58:35,504
would have just waited and timed it perfectly at the bottom. But it's like, you just never are

787
00:58:35,504 --> 00:58:40,384
going to time it perfectly. Like very few people ever time anything perfectly. And unless you're

788
00:58:40,384 --> 00:58:44,504
willing to like, even the people that just spend all day staring at charts can't even get it right.

789
00:58:44,844 --> 00:58:47,804
And you don't want to spend all day staring at charts, right? Like that's just not a,

790
00:58:47,804 --> 00:58:52,464
not use a good use of most people's time. And so it's like, you just need to be in the market.

791
00:58:52,784 --> 00:58:56,684
You just need to be in the market. Like that's all you need to do. And then go try to create value

792
00:58:56,684 --> 00:59:01,964
do something with your life. In every case, like a better use of people's time than trying to become

793
00:59:01,964 --> 00:59:06,884
a trader or an analyst, you know, unless you're, you're, you're a savant, you know, and you're

794
00:59:06,884 --> 00:59:11,224
going to build a whole career out of it, like, like a Dylan LeClaire or something, you know,

795
00:59:11,224 --> 00:59:15,884
unless that's your whole bread and butter and personality and job, a better use of everyone's

796
00:59:15,884 --> 00:59:21,304
time would be like, how can I get better cash inflows to buy this stuff rather than trying to

797
00:59:21,304 --> 00:59:26,204
time it? I can't tell you like, how many times has this happened to you where, you know, a friend

798
00:59:26,204 --> 00:59:30,564
or a family member or something, say they understand Bitcoin,

799
00:59:30,664 --> 00:59:34,124
then go on in the next few sentences to say something like,

800
00:59:34,184 --> 00:59:37,604
I'm waiting for, it's going to get down to this price.

801
00:59:37,804 --> 00:59:41,364
Or I'm actually, I'm long like Aave or something right now.

802
00:59:41,484 --> 00:59:43,544
And when that pops, I'm going to sell it all.

803
00:59:43,744 --> 00:59:48,644
I've had people, neighbors take me out to dinner to tell me about their agentic AI tokens,

804
00:59:49,184 --> 00:59:51,484
only to literally lose millions.

805
00:59:52,044 --> 00:59:53,544
And I'm just like, you still don't have Bitcoin?

806
00:59:53,544 --> 00:59:54,084
Like, no.

807
00:59:54,384 --> 00:59:55,944
Like, man, you just can't be helped.

808
00:59:56,204 --> 00:59:59,804
I don't know. It's really, it's just like, have fun staying poor. I don't know what the,

809
01:00:01,184 --> 01:00:01,764
what'd you say?

810
01:00:04,284 --> 01:00:08,844
Realized I was actually muted. I would just say like, it's just like, you know, like one,

811
01:00:08,984 --> 01:00:14,064
this one simple trick, but like really like the one simple trick is just buy and hold Bitcoin.

812
01:00:14,424 --> 01:00:18,584
Yeah. Do the hard thing. It doesn't, it doesn't have to be complicated. Yeah. But, but people

813
01:00:18,584 --> 01:00:22,624
want to make it complicated. They, they, they don't want it to be so easy because it turns

814
01:00:22,624 --> 01:00:27,104
everything that we've learned or haven't learned about investing completely on its head. And it's

815
01:00:27,104 --> 01:00:32,304
like, yep, you just have to do that. And that doesn't mean never invest in anything else ever

816
01:00:32,304 --> 01:00:35,664
again. Like you should invest in building businesses and doing things like that. Like

817
01:00:35,664 --> 01:00:40,824
that's a good thing to do. You know, like you need that, but you should be more shrewd about them.

818
01:00:40,944 --> 01:00:45,644
Like there's not going to be as much misallocated capital and under a Bitcoin standard, right?

819
01:00:45,644 --> 01:00:49,844
Because people are more careful with how they allocate their capital. And like, but like for

820
01:00:49,844 --> 01:00:53,824
you it's like especially if you're just starting out it's like i beg of you just please ignore the

821
01:00:53,824 --> 01:00:59,144
shit coins like please please for the love of god ignore the shit coins i can't say ignore everything

822
01:00:59,144 --> 01:01:03,904
that's not your like what what value are you giving to the world you know why should someone

823
01:01:03,904 --> 01:01:11,104
pay you for your time or you're gonna end up like these treasury companies man where you've got

824
01:01:11,104 --> 01:01:17,924
you forgot to have an underlying business forgot to have a value proposition for people and the

825
01:01:17,924 --> 01:01:20,084
speculative hype bubbles over,

826
01:01:20,604 --> 01:01:21,424
you're just left with nothing.

827
01:01:22,604 --> 01:01:24,484
You're left with the new... I saw the new

828
01:01:24,484 --> 01:01:26,604
reframing today. The new reframing

829
01:01:26,604 --> 01:01:27,984
is we didn't sell Bitcoin.

830
01:01:28,264 --> 01:01:29,244
We invested it.

831
01:01:30,524 --> 01:01:32,304
We didn't sell our Bitcoin.

832
01:01:32,544 --> 01:01:34,424
We're investing it. They won't even say

833
01:01:34,424 --> 01:01:36,304
trade. We invested it in greater

834
01:01:36,304 --> 01:01:37,044
opportunities.

835
01:01:37,984 --> 01:01:39,724
Like the dollar? What?

836
01:01:39,724 --> 01:01:41,364
What did you invest it in?

837
01:01:41,864 --> 01:01:43,784
You invested in other treasury?

838
01:01:43,964 --> 01:01:45,724
So wait, you're buying other...

839
01:01:46,944 --> 01:01:47,744
You're...

840
01:01:47,924 --> 01:01:50,904
why wouldn't you invest that in your own company?

841
01:01:52,144 --> 01:01:55,944
Why these CEOs are all invested in multiple treasury companies.

842
01:01:55,944 --> 01:01:56,424
It's like,

843
01:01:56,484 --> 01:01:56,664
what,

844
01:01:57,144 --> 01:01:57,384
why not?

845
01:01:57,544 --> 01:01:58,764
Isn't that a conflict of interest?

846
01:01:59,184 --> 01:02:01,764
Focus on the thing that you do focus on that.

847
01:02:03,124 --> 01:02:03,564
It's,

848
01:02:03,604 --> 01:02:04,484
it's going to be interesting.

849
01:02:04,584 --> 01:02:05,784
I think with these treasury companies,

850
01:02:05,924 --> 01:02:08,584
there's going to be like micro strategies in its own league.

851
01:02:08,804 --> 01:02:11,084
Obviously they've got almost 650,000 Bitcoin.

852
01:02:11,784 --> 01:02:12,264
They're,

853
01:02:12,344 --> 01:02:12,604
you know,

854
01:02:12,604 --> 01:02:13,904
I've been dumping for a while,

855
01:02:13,904 --> 01:02:16,844
but like they're going to be one of the last,

856
01:02:16,844 --> 01:02:17,904
the last standing.

857
01:02:17,924 --> 01:02:21,284
I think because I think Saylor ultimately like gets it at a more fundamental

858
01:02:21,284 --> 01:02:21,944
level than,

859
01:02:22,184 --> 01:02:22,904
than most people do.

860
01:02:23,104 --> 01:02:27,204
And he's accumulated just such a head start that like nobody's catching that.

861
01:02:27,504 --> 01:02:28,544
I don't think anyway,

862
01:02:28,604 --> 01:02:29,124
it could be wrong.

863
01:02:29,904 --> 01:02:30,164
Like,

864
01:02:30,504 --> 01:02:30,824
I don't know,

865
01:02:30,844 --> 01:02:31,804
maybe Tether and,

866
01:02:31,804 --> 01:02:33,884
and Jack Mahler's together,

867
01:02:34,004 --> 01:02:34,244
maybe,

868
01:02:34,484 --> 01:02:35,624
but it doesn't,

869
01:02:35,784 --> 01:02:36,324
doesn't like,

870
01:02:36,384 --> 01:02:36,664
that's a,

871
01:02:36,764 --> 01:02:37,464
that's a long way.

872
01:02:37,464 --> 01:02:38,604
That one's very bizarre to me.

873
01:02:39,044 --> 01:02:39,364
Yeah.

874
01:02:39,784 --> 01:02:40,764
It was really bizarre to me.

875
01:02:41,224 --> 01:02:44,304
I don't know that the Latinx don't understand anything about Bitcoin except

876
01:02:44,304 --> 01:02:45,944
like lending Tether money.

877
01:02:45,944 --> 01:02:46,464
I mean,

878
01:02:46,544 --> 01:02:46,904
I don't,

879
01:02:47,924 --> 01:02:52,924
Like, that's just such a weird team to me with no track record.

880
01:02:53,504 --> 01:03:04,704
You know, like Jack has a track record in the space, but that company as a whole doesn't have a track record besides him going on the news and saying, like, we're not a treasury company, actually.

881
01:03:06,364 --> 01:03:09,884
We're going to be a blue chip business doing what?

882
01:03:09,884 --> 01:03:19,744
I mean, I think that the companies like that, though, to play devil's advocate, companies like that that are going to actually have an underlying business.

883
01:03:19,744 --> 01:03:25,484
And it's not just, no, we're just a pure play treasury company and we're just going to, you know, we're just going to raise money and buy Bitcoin.

884
01:03:25,584 --> 01:03:26,464
And like, that's it.

885
01:03:26,584 --> 01:03:28,464
Like, I just don't know.

886
01:03:29,624 --> 01:03:32,744
I don't think that that ends up living for too long.

887
01:03:32,744 --> 01:03:43,984
I think that if you have an underlying business, you're trying to invest in the Bitcoin ecosystem, and maybe you're acquiring other Bitcoin startups, bringing them under your umbrella, you're trying to provide services, you know, for a Bitcoin standard.

888
01:03:44,224 --> 01:03:53,344
I think that is a lot more legs than these pure play treasury companies like that don't have anything except for, look, we're raising more money to buy more Bitcoin.

889
01:03:53,344 --> 01:04:02,544
And, and just like all these other ones, you know, because that's the thing, there's, there's no, there's no differentiating factor there besides how much size can you, can you raise.

890
01:04:02,744 --> 01:04:05,744
And like micro strategy is going to beat you at that.

891
01:04:05,744 --> 01:04:20,572
So like that you know like like what do you have then What the there the like you don have a moat if you not like the big micro strategy has a moat cause they can raise more money all the other peer plays don have a moat and micro strategy actually has an operating business too so that not even fair to say like they they

892
01:04:20,572 --> 01:04:24,252
you know yeah it's small compared to their overall bitcoin holdings but it's still like i think

893
01:04:24,252 --> 01:04:27,452
hundreds of millions of dollars a year which is not nothing that's small business it's like a

894
01:04:27,452 --> 01:04:32,972
billion a year yeah it's a big business like so they actually still have an operating business

895
01:04:32,972 --> 01:04:38,212
and they have more size and they have more products well and he's the longest standing

896
01:04:38,212 --> 01:04:44,952
he's one of the longest standing public ceos he has a track record he has deep deep deep

897
01:04:44,952 --> 01:04:53,012
relationships um i don't know man it's uh it's interesting i realize how hypocritical it may

898
01:04:53,012 --> 01:04:57,892
sound but like i understand the risk of these things and i i was fully prepared to lose everything

899
01:04:57,892 --> 01:05:03,452
on them it didn't turn out that way i don't know if i would invest in them again um but

900
01:05:03,452 --> 01:05:07,612
it's really hard to recommend that people even look into

901
01:05:07,612 --> 01:05:09,372
they're just such a clown show right now

902
01:05:09,372 --> 01:05:15,832
and I feel bad for you know there's a lot of really good people in the space that put everything

903
01:05:15,832 --> 01:05:19,572
into them you know all their whole

904
01:05:19,572 --> 01:05:22,792
reputation their whole career they pivoted completely to

905
01:05:22,792 --> 01:05:24,652
do this stuff

906
01:05:24,652 --> 01:05:31,252
and I don't know I don't know we'll see what happens I've been I found

907
01:05:31,252 --> 01:05:41,372
actually check checkmate uh checkmating um to be a pretty good skeptic um if you're looking for

908
01:05:41,372 --> 01:05:47,172
kind of counter signal you know that's not just just kind of a big hype machine or media machine

909
01:05:47,172 --> 01:05:53,932
about these these treasury codes he's a pretty clear thinker um i love checkmate is yeah he

910
01:05:53,932 --> 01:05:59,912
breaks things down super well and i think he has a very nice like just a data-driven rationalist

911
01:05:59,912 --> 01:06:04,332
approach to these things which i i always appreciate like he's he's not gonna overhype

912
01:06:04,332 --> 01:06:09,152
you you know like he may be very bullish on on bitcoin but like he's also not gonna even overhype

913
01:06:09,152 --> 01:06:12,232
bitcoin like he's gonna be like oh listen like this is my case he always says like check the

914
01:06:12,232 --> 01:06:16,672
analyst versus check the the hodler you know like he separates the two i wish i could separate those

915
01:06:16,672 --> 01:06:21,392
but i don't have the analyst side so it's just like walker yeah it's hard you know it's that's

916
01:06:21,392 --> 01:06:27,892
that's all i got yeah yeah i'm kind of in the same boat you know my analysis is kind of just um

917
01:06:27,892 --> 01:06:33,192
just feels I mean for Bitcoin it's you know what I know about Bitcoin there are people out there

918
01:06:33,192 --> 01:06:39,852
it's interesting like as it grows there are people that come into the space probably you know within

919
01:06:39,852 --> 01:06:44,652
the next year within a year short period of time and they're they're they will understand everything

920
01:06:44,652 --> 01:06:50,652
that we do and more everything that we've learned in decades they'll come out of nowhere every cycle

921
01:06:50,652 --> 01:06:54,872
there's new people that that that come up that they're not spooks there's nothing inherently

922
01:06:54,872 --> 01:06:58,992
wrong with them. They're just new. And it'll surprise you. Like, oh, wow, this is really,

923
01:06:59,092 --> 01:07:05,152
we're really kind of becoming a little bit older guard here. And these guys think about things

924
01:07:05,152 --> 01:07:08,832
completely differently. That's what happened this year for me, like going to these conferences. I

925
01:07:08,832 --> 01:07:13,532
was like, this has just become a different thing. It's not cypherpunk anymore. It's a big commercial

926
01:07:13,532 --> 01:07:21,912
for the treasury companies and basically enterprise Bitcoin and the collapse of Bitcoin and the

927
01:07:21,912 --> 01:07:23,732
capture of it into traditional finance.

928
01:07:25,792 --> 01:07:27,532
It's kind of why I don't go to conferences anymore.

929
01:07:27,672 --> 01:07:29,092
It's just like, I don't know if that's for me.

930
01:07:29,552 --> 01:07:32,092
I'm not too bullish on the suit corners.

931
01:07:32,532 --> 01:07:34,732
I don't find them very interesting.

932
01:07:37,192 --> 01:07:39,312
Yeah, I just personally hate wearing ties.

933
01:07:39,632 --> 01:07:40,552
So that's not for me.

934
01:07:40,712 --> 01:07:44,692
Even if I got a suit jacket on, I'm just not a fan of ties.

935
01:07:44,952 --> 01:07:47,032
I can't bring myself to do it.

936
01:07:47,072 --> 01:07:48,752
So I guess I'm out of that crowd.

937
01:07:48,752 --> 01:07:53,452
I mean, have you, uh, or do you still have an interest in throwing kind of, let's say smaller

938
01:07:53,452 --> 01:08:00,252
scale on conferences, like more, more, let's say, uh, either developer focused or just like

939
01:08:00,252 --> 01:08:02,792
niche, you know, niche within a niche type thing.

940
01:08:03,232 --> 01:08:03,712
Yeah.

941
01:08:05,152 --> 01:08:07,612
There's one, I don't really have time right now.

942
01:08:07,972 --> 01:08:11,012
There was one I was like asked to help with that.

943
01:08:11,012 --> 01:08:17,152
I ultimately didn't have time for like a Costa Rican retreat, which is really appealing to

944
01:08:17,152 --> 01:08:17,312
me.

945
01:08:17,412 --> 01:08:18,172
I love Costa Rica.

946
01:08:18,752 --> 01:08:25,432
I would like to start putting on my own again, but more for lifestyle stuff.

947
01:08:25,432 --> 01:08:28,172
I think all of us spend way too much time on the computer.

948
01:08:28,612 --> 01:08:39,532
And I think people should be practicing, you know, should be exercising and eating well and learning how to source and like harvest their own food and just like a return to grassroots, basically.

949
01:08:39,532 --> 01:08:45,252
yeah I would love to do more jujitsu and yoga

950
01:08:45,252 --> 01:08:49,472
retreats and bring in Bitcoin especially like

951
01:08:49,472 --> 01:08:54,552
vendors as a part of that local goods and services

952
01:08:54,552 --> 01:08:58,932
you know like buy a goat and Bitcoin slaughter it together

953
01:08:58,932 --> 01:09:02,912
everybody eats it asados I've had a lot of fun with small events like that

954
01:09:02,912 --> 01:09:06,852
around the world and I think that's really the way forward because it's like real

955
01:09:06,852 --> 01:09:12,412
community and you take away the important part about those small events is like take away all

956
01:09:12,412 --> 01:09:20,092
enterprise value um of them um and everybody will be there for the right reasons and have a good

957
01:09:20,092 --> 01:09:25,312
time you'll end up with good people and put some sort of hurdle on getting into it can't just be

958
01:09:25,312 --> 01:09:30,992
the most successful thing you know pub key new york no it's got to be like in the boonies you

959
01:09:30,992 --> 01:09:35,352
got to put it in patagonia you got to put you got to make people travel to get that would be sick

960
01:09:35,352 --> 01:09:40,452
I would go to a Bitcoin adjacent retreat in Patagonia.

961
01:09:40,972 --> 01:09:44,012
That would be, I've never been, and I would very much like to.

962
01:09:44,092 --> 01:09:45,052
That sounds great.

963
01:09:45,112 --> 01:09:47,672
This is why beefsteak events are so great too.

964
01:09:48,292 --> 01:09:51,592
Because it's like, yeah, you're getting a bunch of Bitcoiners together,

965
01:09:51,792 --> 01:09:53,952
but it's not about Bitcoin, right?

966
01:09:53,972 --> 01:09:55,112
It's about the beef.

967
01:09:55,212 --> 01:09:56,252
It's about hanging out.

968
01:09:56,492 --> 01:09:59,412
It's about eating meat with your hands and having a good time.

969
01:09:59,412 --> 01:10:06,152
and that's like i think we i think we start to see more and more of that kind of events like it's it's

970
01:10:06,152 --> 01:10:09,912
a it's a decentralization of the conference circuit you know because like once you've been

971
01:10:09,912 --> 01:10:13,272
to enough conferences like i still enjoy them because i love hanging out with bitcoiners right

972
01:10:13,272 --> 01:10:18,192
i like that but that's what that's why you go is like to spend time with your fellow bitcoiners in

973
01:10:18,192 --> 01:10:24,912
the meat space uh but if you can do that in in a way that's less uh i don't know less less

974
01:10:24,912 --> 01:10:26,292
corporate, it just feels better.

975
01:10:27,072 --> 01:10:28,752
Yeah, I think the

976
01:10:28,752 --> 01:10:31,012
most fun that I ever have at those events,

977
01:10:31,332 --> 01:10:32,872
you know, I've been to dozens of them, it's

978
01:10:32,872 --> 01:10:35,192
like at the side events,

979
01:10:35,352 --> 01:10:36,812
walking around looking for food,

980
01:10:37,232 --> 01:10:38,832
you know, going to the fish market with

981
01:10:38,832 --> 01:10:40,632
like NVK and whatever random

982
01:10:40,632 --> 01:10:42,932
developers are around, like just

983
01:10:42,932 --> 01:10:44,892
doing a nice early morning walk

984
01:10:44,892 --> 01:10:47,072
or late night, you know, at a pub somewhere together.

985
01:10:47,072 --> 01:10:49,292
Like, it's the side events

986
01:10:49,292 --> 01:10:53,052
for me. So that just means small,

987
01:10:53,432 --> 01:10:54,012
nimble,

988
01:10:54,912 --> 01:11:14,792
Yeah, I'd love to just throw them myself, not for any sort of financial gain, but just out of, you know, fun, like invite, you know, building a place now where I can host, you know, bring out 100 people and plan a couple days or half day activities for everyone to do and try something new together.

989
01:11:14,792 --> 01:11:21,532
and yeah you can have talks and all that or you could put bitcoin into practice and have

990
01:11:21,532 --> 01:11:25,552
self-custody workshops that's something i really like to give self-custody workshops

991
01:11:25,552 --> 01:11:31,792
i always end up giving some to the people around me like friends and neighbors and stuff that have

992
01:11:31,792 --> 01:11:37,432
small businesses because they see that organic interest but i don't know it's like a practical

993
01:11:37,432 --> 01:11:41,892
way to give back but it's also it's just the most fun man like we get you can only do so much

994
01:11:41,892 --> 01:11:49,392
arguing online and participating like i'll have achieved my my goals in this space when i don't

995
01:11:49,392 --> 01:11:56,752
have to be on on on um you know twitter anymore or any of these social media apps they're just

996
01:11:56,752 --> 01:12:02,512
they're such a life a life dream well and you know i think maybe uh just being conscious of

997
01:12:02,512 --> 01:12:06,232
time here one thing we didn't get a chance to talk about yet that that follows from what you

998
01:12:06,232 --> 01:12:11,392
just said is it feels like we're entering rage quit season not voluntary quit season but rage

999
01:12:11,392 --> 01:12:20,732
rage quit season uh and i don't know how much of that is just a function of bitcoin of like the

1000
01:12:20,732 --> 01:12:25,472
overall bearishness is just like seeping into people's subconsciouses and obviously that with

1001
01:12:25,472 --> 01:12:29,732
the whole core knots thing too that adds a different layer but like if bitcoin were ripping

1002
01:12:29,732 --> 01:12:34,412
everyone's faces off right now if number was ripping up that that debate would have a very

1003
01:12:34,412 --> 01:12:38,592
different tone to it you know what i mean but because it's also like because price action is

1004
01:12:38,592 --> 01:12:43,912
bearish i feel like that just like doubles up on people and i i don't know again it's like so many

1005
01:12:43,912 --> 01:12:47,792
people are bearish right now for various reasons whether it be price or because they think bitcoin

1006
01:12:47,792 --> 01:12:53,112
is captured or bitcoin is doomed i just continue to be super fucking bullish i don't know about you

1007
01:12:53,112 --> 01:13:02,160
i should be bullish i realize i been uh taking pessimistic stance this whole podcast Not good I a very optimistic person

1008
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:08,360
Dude, Nats is so funny to me. It's just such a source of joy and entertainment.

1009
01:13:09,300 --> 01:13:09,980
Oh, God.

1010
01:13:10,820 --> 01:13:16,580
This is possibly the worst marketing team to ever exist in Bitcoin or elsewhere.

1011
01:13:17,100 --> 01:13:23,080
I'll tell you a story about the Nazis and about Ocean.

1012
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:27,000
Ocean was looking for funding.

1013
01:13:27,260 --> 01:13:29,860
They're having all these meetings and they wanted to throw a conference.

1014
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:34,000
Kind of like unveiling conference.

1015
01:13:34,180 --> 01:13:35,560
It was a really cool idea at the beginning.

1016
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:43,220
This is before a lot of these guys got like a brain damaging virus or something.

1017
01:13:43,460 --> 01:13:44,700
Got obsessed with child porn.

1018
01:13:44,940 --> 01:13:51,240
But like they were running around like looking for funding.

1019
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:54,720
and I was working at Lightning Ventures at the time,

1020
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:57,360
giving funding to Bitcoin companies that were good.

1021
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:01,600
And I got a call with them just like personally.

1022
01:14:02,100 --> 01:14:05,820
So I was like, well, you know, I know you want to do an event.

1023
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:06,900
I can help you with that.

1024
01:14:07,420 --> 01:14:08,360
And I know you want funding.

1025
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:09,520
I can help you with that.

1026
01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:15,120
You know, let's get you talking to Jack, get some funding.

1027
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:17,940
So we all like get on this call.

1028
01:14:17,940 --> 01:14:24,500
and uh the first thing i wanted to know was like what where have you guys worked in the past

1029
01:14:24,500 --> 01:14:30,220
like i don't i don't really know where you came from i know luke that's fine everybody else like

1030
01:14:30,220 --> 01:14:36,200
what have you done none of them have any kind of background in running a business and i was like

1031
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:43,240
okay for the time of the market i was like you're asking for like like 10x the valuation a company

1032
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:50,100
in your position with no real plan to generate revenue would ask for like you're asking for a

1033
01:14:50,100 --> 01:14:55,060
tremendous valuation a tremendous amount of money up front you want you know you're trying to raise

1034
01:14:55,060 --> 01:15:02,180
five ten million dollars um okay so what have you guys done in the past no real answer for that

1035
01:15:02,180 --> 01:15:07,860
what are you going to do with the money that we will give you let's say we we give you a couple

1036
01:15:07,860 --> 01:15:11,060
hundred thousand a couple million dollars like what are you going to do with the money what are

1037
01:15:11,060 --> 01:15:18,720
plans for the money no answer from anyone on the ocean team had no plan for the millions of dollars

1038
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:26,220
that they raised um you know i doubled down on that just like what you don't have any just tell

1039
01:15:26,220 --> 01:15:31,240
me some you're gonna hire anyone like what do you what's the plan here like how it is a startup like

1040
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:36,320
what are you gonna do you know what who are how many engineers how many what are you gonna pay

1041
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:42,1000
them? What are you paying yourselves? You know, oh, we need two, 300 K a person per year. We need

1042
01:15:42,1000 --> 01:15:47,500
to hire, you know, these engineers are going to be very, very expensive. Okay. How many do you need?

1043
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:52,260
What do you need them for? What's the product there? It was just clear from the get go that it

1044
01:15:52,260 --> 01:16:00,600
was just a really poor business idea. And if you just go back to like how we started the conversation,

1045
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:05,140
it's just like this thing would never survive on a free market. The only reason they exist

1046
01:16:05,140 --> 01:16:06,980
is because Jack gave them charity.

1047
01:16:08,380 --> 01:16:10,620
Because it was an interesting idea.

1048
01:16:10,740 --> 01:16:12,320
I could support the idea in theory,

1049
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:14,580
but they've lost their way.

1050
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:16,920
This is not about mining anymore.

1051
01:16:17,180 --> 01:16:19,080
It's not about decentralizing mining.

1052
01:16:19,440 --> 01:16:22,800
It's not about running ocean, you know?

1053
01:16:24,940 --> 01:16:28,160
And it's the most disastrous, like, marketing campaign

1054
01:16:28,160 --> 01:16:31,140
that I've ever seen for a company.

1055
01:16:31,140 --> 01:16:36,680
These are like totally irrational, like unhinged, like very deranged people.

1056
01:16:36,900 --> 01:16:41,860
Like you just read what they're writing for, you know, for a day or two between any given day.

1057
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:45,720
It's not like a one off. Oh, mechanic had a temporary bout of insanity.

1058
01:16:46,140 --> 01:16:48,420
We can forgive him. It happens to the best of us.

1059
01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:52,180
Bitcoin is high pressure and it's hard to have a start like a failing startup in the space.

1060
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:55,480
I feel for the guy. No problem. No, it's every day.

1061
01:16:55,480 --> 01:17:04,340
You show up with that same energy and accusations and calling people out and rambling about child porn every single day.

1062
01:17:04,540 --> 01:17:10,500
It's like, okay, this is the severe physical and mental illness on all fronts, the whole team.

1063
01:17:12,780 --> 01:17:20,260
I don't know how they're going to use up all that money if they haven't already.

1064
01:17:20,820 --> 01:17:22,940
So I'd be interested to see what happens.

1065
01:17:22,940 --> 01:17:27,1000
I've been asking, no one will answer me, but like, how's revenue?

1066
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:32,580
I did invest in Ocean because I wanted to support the idea.

1067
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:35,940
Even though they had no answers for what they're going to do with the money,

1068
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:37,600
I was like, we'll give you some money.

1069
01:17:37,820 --> 01:17:38,300
See what happens.

1070
01:17:39,1000 --> 01:17:40,780
I don't know.

1071
01:17:40,860 --> 01:17:42,140
I don't know how much money they'd have.

1072
01:17:42,260 --> 01:17:45,160
I'd love to know if somebody could tell me if they're making any money.

1073
01:17:47,160 --> 01:17:51,400
But, man, it's a, yeah, it's a mess.

1074
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:52,660
But it's very entertaining.

1075
01:17:52,940 --> 01:17:57,300
At the same time, it's like our own little like it's like our own little Epstein files.

1076
01:17:57,720 --> 01:17:58,160
You know what I mean?

1077
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:01,340
Oh, yeah.

1078
01:18:01,400 --> 01:18:06,460
And quite literally now, too, with everybody being like, see, look, Epstein was funding all the core developers.

1079
01:18:06,460 --> 01:18:06,980
And it's like.

1080
01:18:08,860 --> 01:18:09,780
All right.

1081
01:18:10,100 --> 01:18:12,960
Like that it was through like the MIT Media Lab.

1082
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:17,380
Right. And he was giving money to the Media Lab, who was then finding like funding some core developers.

1083
01:18:17,380 --> 01:18:20,880
It's like, I'm not saying that there's, there's nothing there, but it's like the, the, the

1084
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:23,220
implications that are drawn from that.

1085
01:18:23,540 --> 01:18:26,780
It's like, you know, yeah.

1086
01:18:26,900 --> 01:18:32,320
I think about Jeremy's job at the time, it was just to go and ask people for money.

1087
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:36,020
And of course you're going to, everybody would ask that guy for money.

1088
01:18:36,860 --> 01:18:37,580
All of them.

1089
01:18:37,740 --> 01:18:40,460
Like, I don't think he was engaged in anything nefarious.

1090
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:43,580
I think he, his job was to go find money for this lab and he did.

1091
01:18:44,660 --> 01:18:46,200
Yeah, man.

1092
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:49,940
It's like, boy, I would just love to see.

1093
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:54,280
We've got Bill and Keone, the samurai walled devs,

1094
01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:58,340
who are now both been sentenced to spend multiple years in prison,

1095
01:18:58,500 --> 01:18:59,800
massive fines, all these things.

1096
01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:05,500
Meanwhile, the Jeffrey Epstein's bankers at JPMorgan Chase

1097
01:19:05,500 --> 01:19:11,440
just paid a slap on the wrist fine for admitting that they were aiding

1098
01:19:11,440 --> 01:19:16,700
and abetting, you know, sex trafficking and laundering money for this guy.

1099
01:19:17,140 --> 01:19:18,860
And, but nobody goes to jail there.

1100
01:19:18,860 --> 01:19:20,560
Like that's just a cost of doing business.

1101
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:22,540
You know, that's just a, that's a cost of doing business.

1102
01:19:22,540 --> 01:19:25,560
It's like when they, when these big banks launder money for the cartels and they're

1103
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:26,640
like, oh shit, you're right.

1104
01:19:26,700 --> 01:19:26,1000
Okay.

1105
01:19:26,1000 --> 01:19:27,760
We'll pay the fine.

1106
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:29,620
And then like, we'll just keep doing it.

1107
01:19:29,620 --> 01:19:35,120
Like, it's just, it's so insane to me that you've got this incredible double standard

1108
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:39,700
where you just like, you'll, you'll just forgive a big bank for laundering money for

1109
01:19:39,700 --> 01:19:45,080
a sex trafficking you know blackmailing yeah probably probably government asset you know

1110
01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:50,480
not going to say which government asset guy but then a couple of guys who write open source software

1111
01:19:50,480 --> 01:19:56,040
uh you slam them with money transmitter license uh uh you know failure to get a money transmitter

1112
01:19:56,040 --> 01:20:00,180
license even though the institution responsible for issuing those licenses said they don't need

1113
01:20:00,180 --> 01:20:04,520
a license but you're going to get them anyway and you're like fuck man it's fucking ridiculous

1114
01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:06,420
Free samurai, pardon samurai.

1115
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:09,340
Those guys do not, they should not be going to jail.

1116
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:11,860
And I truly hope that President Trump does something.

1117
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:12,840
I know.

1118
01:20:13,020 --> 01:20:18,820
And I'd like to see the full force of the community come out in the same way they did for Ross, if not more so.

1119
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:20,500
My God.

1120
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:22,860
This is even more cut and dry.

1121
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:25,620
There's no malintent here that I can see.

1122
01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:33,1000
This is a total, this is just, this is basically a judge and the legal people involved in the legal system not doing their job.

1123
01:20:33,1000 --> 01:20:40,680
Like they did not learn about the subject that they were ruling over at all.

1124
01:20:41,260 --> 01:20:45,700
You could tell by her, you know, her own her.

1125
01:20:46,020 --> 01:20:47,160
I don't know what you call it.

1126
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:52,780
Her own thoughts on the subject, like at the sentencing, the things that she said that he said, the judge.

1127
01:20:52,820 --> 01:20:55,640
And it's. I don't know. It's just a shame.

1128
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:57,280
We got to. Yeah, we got to get him out.

1129
01:20:58,860 --> 01:20:59,940
I don't know how to do that.

1130
01:20:59,940 --> 01:21:02,1000
I think it's always been apparent that there's this huge double standard, though.

1131
01:21:03,1000 --> 01:21:28,360
It's our government's very, very corrupt. That's ultimately why we're here. It's very broken. I don't really the hard part is it's really disheartening when you when you point out like all the different ways that it's broken and manipulated. And I think the way to have a clear goal in mind is to try to fix the money like that is the root cause of most of the corruption and the problems that we face.

1132
01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:35,740
And if we can get a grasp on that, we can at least swap out fiat currency for Bitcoin wherever possible and get people to ditch.

1133
01:21:36,1000 --> 01:21:49,108
The fiat system will be in a much better place or a place where people have at least retained property rights and freedom of speech and wealth and sovereignty I say amen to that

1134
01:21:49,268 --> 01:21:53,268
And it's like, that's, that's the beautiful thing is that any one of us can opt in at

1135
01:21:53,268 --> 01:21:54,448
any time and start moving.

1136
01:21:54,968 --> 01:21:59,908
Jeff Booth has always, I just talked to him earlier this week and whenever I talk to Jeff,

1137
01:21:59,968 --> 01:22:03,528
I like, I just leave like buzzing for a few days, you know, being like, okay, I need to

1138
01:22:03,528 --> 01:22:03,848
be better.

1139
01:22:03,848 --> 01:22:07,348
I need to be better about moving more of my time and attention into this parallel system.

1140
01:22:07,768 --> 01:22:12,388
and and doing whatever i can to spend as much time existing in that parallel system and contributing

1141
01:22:12,388 --> 01:22:16,388
value to it as possible because like that is ultimately i don't think the beast gets fixed

1142
01:22:16,388 --> 01:22:21,788
from inside the beast you know what i mean i think the beast has to be has to be drained of blood

1143
01:22:21,788 --> 01:22:27,848
by another you know uh another system basically just sucking it dry sucking the monetary energy

1144
01:22:27,848 --> 01:22:33,528
sucking the intellectual talent sucking all of the the good parts of this system that are currently

1145
01:22:33,528 --> 01:22:40,908
encased in this fucking, I don't know, wall of shit, whatever you want to call what the

1146
01:22:40,908 --> 01:22:46,108
fiat panopticon is becoming and moving that into this parallel system. And the more time

1147
01:22:46,108 --> 01:22:51,928
and energy and attention and economic power that moves into this parallel system, the stronger it

1148
01:22:51,928 --> 01:22:57,008
becomes and the less powerful this existing entrenched power structure becomes. And so it's

1149
01:22:57,008 --> 01:23:01,248
like that's why it's incumbent on each of us to just do what you can, figure out how you can move

1150
01:23:01,248 --> 01:23:04,468
a little bit more time and a little bit more attention and a little bit more energy over to

1151
01:23:04,468 --> 01:23:09,188
the parallel system every day. And if you can do that, like you are, you are actually, you know,

1152
01:23:09,208 --> 01:23:12,128
like it's like the meme, like I'm doing my part, but really like, that's how you do your part.

1153
01:23:12,388 --> 01:23:17,728
You do your part just by acting and choosing to act every day and making individual subjective

1154
01:23:17,728 --> 01:23:22,088
value judgments. And you make the world just like a little bit of a better place by putting more of

1155
01:23:22,088 --> 01:23:27,888
your energy into the, the better system, the fairer system. And that's like, it gives me hope.

1156
01:23:27,888 --> 01:23:35,928
This is why conferences are great because you get to hang out with a bunch of Bitcoiners and see what they're doing in that lane, right?

1157
01:23:36,008 --> 01:23:39,008
See what they're doing to make that parallel system better.

1158
01:23:39,468 --> 01:23:43,388
But I don't think the system can fix itself from within the system, right?

1159
01:23:43,688 --> 01:23:48,228
I think Bitcoin helps externally, not so much internally.

1160
01:23:48,908 --> 01:23:54,568
It only helps internally in that it will help accelerate the existing system's demise, I think.

1161
01:23:54,968 --> 01:23:57,308
I don't think Bitcoin can save the existing system.

1162
01:23:57,308 --> 01:23:58,268
Does that make sense?

1163
01:24:00,428 --> 01:24:04,888
Yeah, I think both things are true.

1164
01:24:05,248 --> 01:24:07,688
There's one, just opt out on all fronts.

1165
01:24:08,228 --> 01:24:09,028
Preserve yourself.

1166
01:24:09,208 --> 01:24:11,268
Put on your oxygen mask before helping others.

1167
01:24:11,988 --> 01:24:13,848
But once you're in a stable place, you have a good stack.

1168
01:24:14,908 --> 01:24:19,948
There's a really big question that everyone has to answer for themselves, which is, what do you do with your time?

1169
01:24:21,108 --> 01:24:22,808
You have all this wealth.

1170
01:24:23,008 --> 01:24:24,088
How are you going to live your life?

1171
01:24:24,288 --> 01:24:25,208
How are you going to get healthy?

1172
01:24:25,208 --> 01:24:37,968
Are you going to promote your own production of your own genes and longevity and inhibit kind of bad things from happening around you and the people around you?

1173
01:24:38,068 --> 01:24:41,148
And it's like you have to go out and exemplify that life.

1174
01:24:41,348 --> 01:24:47,548
And I think part of that means actually interacting with a lot of normal people and leading by example.

1175
01:24:47,548 --> 01:24:49,828
like in my immediate

1176
01:24:49,828 --> 01:24:52,268
friend group

1177
01:24:52,268 --> 01:24:54,548
the people I spend the most physical amount of time

1178
01:24:54,548 --> 01:24:54,868
with

1179
01:24:54,868 --> 01:24:58,528
they don't have any Bitcoin

1180
01:24:58,528 --> 01:25:00,088
they're not

1181
01:25:00,088 --> 01:25:02,488
they're increasingly interested

1182
01:25:02,488 --> 01:25:04,228
in it they have a lot of questions

1183
01:25:04,228 --> 01:25:06,408
just by virtue of like being around me

1184
01:25:06,408 --> 01:25:08,228
a little bit I don't promote it

1185
01:25:08,228 --> 01:25:10,388
in front of them they just like happen to know what's up

1186
01:25:10,388 --> 01:25:11,868
and

1187
01:25:11,868 --> 01:25:14,268
they see you know what I mean they see like

1188
01:25:14,268 --> 01:25:15,108
a level of

1189
01:25:15,108 --> 01:25:18,888
kind of like clarity of vision.

1190
01:25:19,108 --> 01:25:21,188
They see an inherent skepticism of

1191
01:25:21,188 --> 01:25:23,528
they've been repeating the company lines,

1192
01:25:23,728 --> 01:25:25,308
the government lines for a long time.

1193
01:25:25,368 --> 01:25:27,248
They'll see that I don't tolerate it at all.

1194
01:25:27,368 --> 01:25:28,788
I'll just be like, no, it's a lie.

1195
01:25:30,468 --> 01:25:31,528
Actually, you know what I mean?

1196
01:25:31,528 --> 01:25:33,188
Like you're the odd one out

1197
01:25:33,188 --> 01:25:35,088
when you're the big partner in your group of like

1198
01:25:35,088 --> 01:25:37,288
normal friends. But I think that's important.

1199
01:25:37,988 --> 01:25:39,328
I don't think it's a good idea to reject

1200
01:25:39,328 --> 01:25:41,028
them completely because they're good people.

1201
01:25:41,168 --> 01:25:42,368
They're just not there yet.

1202
01:25:42,368 --> 01:25:50,168
and you can only get them there by uh leading by example and succeeding and your success like they

1203
01:25:50,168 --> 01:25:57,888
will they will try on your ideas and beliefs uh to try to replicate that um so i so i think it's

1204
01:25:57,888 --> 01:26:04,428
important to like get out your local community yeah and spend time with those people i i i totally

1205
01:26:04,428 --> 01:26:09,028
agree with that like there's a lot of good people out there who just uh you know you need to hand

1206
01:26:09,028 --> 01:26:13,608
of an orange pill and eventually they'll take it on their own. But, uh, it's, uh, there's a lot of

1207
01:26:13,608 --> 01:26:18,708
people that are very much worth saving out there and, you know, can't save everyone, but like,

1208
01:26:18,928 --> 01:26:21,588
you're right. Once you, once you get to a certain point, it's like, what are you going to do?

1209
01:26:21,848 --> 01:26:25,868
Like, what are you going to do with yourself? You're going to retreat back and, you know,

1210
01:26:25,868 --> 01:26:29,288
never talk to anyone ever and just guard yourself away in your citadel. Like, you know, it sounds

1211
01:26:29,288 --> 01:26:33,468
kind of nice, but it's also like, we, we, like, we need people like you, you want, you want,

1212
01:26:33,888 --> 01:26:38,368
you want good people to be with you on this journey through this fucking fourth turning.

1213
01:26:38,368 --> 01:26:42,928
you want people to come out the other side with that aren't going to come you know to the gates

1214
01:26:42,928 --> 01:26:46,888
of your citadel with pitchforks and be like we got to burn this motherfucker down because there's

1215
01:26:46,888 --> 01:26:50,568
this fat cat bitcoiner in there like no no we need that's why you need to get as many people

1216
01:26:50,568 --> 01:26:54,448
on board with bitcoin as possible because when things get really dark you don't want them to be

1217
01:26:54,448 --> 01:27:00,188
like that's the fucking bitcoiner it's all his fault elizabeth warren told me so like you don't

1218
01:27:00,188 --> 01:27:04,808
want to get to that place you know what i mean no i think it's going to be the transition's a

1219
01:27:04,808 --> 01:27:11,068
little bit hard you're gonna lose some friends over it it happens i think just even the the whole

1220
01:27:11,068 --> 01:27:16,928
trump grift of like the last couple years uh definitely got a lot of people that are like oh

1221
01:27:16,928 --> 01:27:20,488
you're a republic like they just make the assumption you're a republican you're a big trump guy it's

1222
01:27:20,488 --> 01:27:26,868
like uh i actually never voted in my life it couldn't be further from the truth so don't know

1223
01:27:26,868 --> 01:27:33,548
what you're talking about but they're like everyone at any given time i i would like urge

1224
01:27:33,548 --> 01:27:38,868
people to not think in terms of like ultimatums and like non-redemptive paths like everyone is not

1225
01:27:38,868 --> 01:27:45,168
either good or bad like if you're a bitcoiner everyone's either their actions are net positive

1226
01:27:45,168 --> 01:27:51,008
or negative for bitcoin or neutral at any given time it's not forever you know like trump will

1227
01:27:51,008 --> 01:27:56,848
not always be good for bitcoin there's some days he does things that are really the antithesis of

1228
01:27:56,848 --> 01:28:02,148
what we're going for you know it's the same with uh you know howard ludnick it's the same with um

1229
01:28:02,148 --> 01:28:07,868
you know, pick your favorite CEO in the space. It's a double-edged sword. It's just like,

1230
01:28:07,948 --> 01:28:12,988
we're all humans, we're all fallible. So it's just at any given time. This is also like the

1231
01:28:13,668 --> 01:28:22,868
editorial thesis that Rossum as a media company is founded on. It's like everything that happens

1232
01:28:22,868 --> 01:28:27,648
is, you know, might not all be directly related to Bitcoin, but it's probably good or bad for it

1233
01:28:27,648 --> 01:28:32,728
in some way. So rather than red versus blue, that's the lens that we take on things.

1234
01:28:33,808 --> 01:28:37,108
Obviously, we want to point out those things that are good for it, but we understand

1235
01:28:37,108 --> 01:28:43,388
we're not going to endorse political candidates because they're not always going to be good for

1236
01:28:43,388 --> 01:28:46,568
it. They're going to do some things that are good and some things that are bad. And we should be

1237
01:28:46,568 --> 01:28:54,748
able to talk about and weigh those things, you know, as we go. Amen to that. And I think that's

1238
01:28:54,748 --> 01:28:58,748
a that's a perfect note to end on mcshane where do you want to uh where do you want to send people

1239
01:28:58,748 --> 01:29:07,448
uh you can send them to roxham.tv yeah watch the stream watch walker on stream it's really good

1240
01:29:07,448 --> 01:29:14,328
yeah every uh every every tuesday at 1 p.m estm on that roxham stream so yeah come hang out but

1241
01:29:14,328 --> 01:29:19,548
dude i'm glad we got a chance to do this it's been long overdue great catching up a bit uh and yeah

1242
01:29:19,548 --> 01:29:30,088
I would also just to echo your last message, you know, remember that like, you don't need to get sucked into this red blue political dichotomy wherever you happen to be in the world like there.

1243
01:29:30,368 --> 01:29:32,368
Everyone wants to force a binary on you.

1244
01:29:32,788 --> 01:29:33,188
Everyone.

1245
01:29:34,408 --> 01:29:36,348
There's a non binary joke here somewhere.

1246
01:29:36,848 --> 01:29:39,068
But yeah, I'll leave it at that.

1247
01:29:39,068 --> 01:29:44,888
And I'll just say like, remember that like there is a third path and Bitcoin represents that third path.

1248
01:29:44,888 --> 01:29:49,028
And you can meaningfully take steps down that path at any time.

1249
01:29:49,548 --> 01:29:51,448
try to do your best not to rage quit.

1250
01:29:52,228 --> 01:29:55,108
Because when you rage quit, you end up with less Bitcoin.

1251
01:29:55,548 --> 01:29:56,668
You don't want that to happen.

1252
01:29:56,868 --> 01:29:59,648
So try to stay, you know, stay cheerful, stay optimistic

1253
01:29:59,648 --> 01:30:03,048
and spend more time with Bitcoiners whenever you can.

1254
01:30:03,108 --> 01:30:05,108
Because generally that makes me more cheerful and optimistic.

1255
01:30:05,328 --> 01:30:06,528
And if you can't do that in the meat space,

1256
01:30:06,848 --> 01:30:08,608
you should probably just start a Bitcoin podcast

1257
01:30:08,608 --> 01:30:10,328
because then you get to do stuff like this.

1258
01:30:10,388 --> 01:30:12,008
So it's a win-win there.

1259
01:30:12,408 --> 01:30:13,968
But dude, great hanging with you.

1260
01:30:14,028 --> 01:30:15,948
Thanks to everyone who joined on the Noster live stream.

1261
01:30:16,048 --> 01:30:16,888
Appreciate you guys.

1262
01:30:17,488 --> 01:30:18,148
See you next time.

1263
01:30:18,148 --> 01:30:18,748
Cheers, machine.

1264
01:30:18,748 --> 01:30:20,028
catch you later