Our mission is really simple.
We want to educate Washington, D.C. on Bitcoin.
Because if Bitcoin's going to be successful,
then eventually the largest nation in the world is going to say,
what's that all about?
What's going on with that?
Anyone who thinks that Bitcoin could become successful
and the United States government was just going to be like,
ah, fifth largest asset in the world.
Cal, we'll figure it out later.
You're out of your mind.
This is not how it works.
And maybe you wish it worked that way, and that's fine, but it doesn't.
With regards to Bitcoin and the government,
that the worst case scenario would be Bitcoin just, boom, out of nowhere, you know, 10 trillion market cap or whatever, you know, blows past gold.
And a bunch of people get in the room and watch the scene, they're like, what's up with this Bitcoin thing?
And nobody knows.
And they're like, yeah, I heard it's like a scam or I heard, you know, I remember the FTX thing.
Like that was a total rug pull.
I don't know, but like this is endangering the entire financial system.
Like we got to kill it.
Like we got to figure it out.
We need to ban mining.
whatever they would want to do.
And you say, well, they couldn't kill Bitcoin.
Probably not, but they sure as hell could try.
It sure wouldn't be fun in the meantime, right?
And so that's what we want to avoid.
We want people to, you know, have them like, oh, yeah,
I've actually met with many Bitcoiners over the last, you know, five, ten years.
And I think this is actually really important.
And I'm glad it's successful.
And I actually think the United States, I think we benefit from this.
I think the world benefits from this.
And here's why.
And if we want to talk more in depth, like, let me bring some people in who know a lot about it.
That's where we want to be at.
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.
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Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk.
All right.
Well, welcome.
It's been like a whole, what, week and a half since we've seen each other?
Yeah.
Ten days.
It feels like, yeah, the last ten days have been about, what, two months?
Yeah.
Yeah, it's always interesting coming off the conference, let's say, like the conference high, because especially something about Vegas is like, it sucks a lot of extra energy out of you.
Like the conferences are always tiring, but Vegas just like really seems to like strip you down to bare bones.
But yeah, I'm mostly recovered, I think.
It's a mystery why.
I don't know why Vegas just sucks it out of you.
Maybe it's the 3 a.m. nights.
Listen, I think Vegas is a lot like Washington, D.C.
You know, I'm there for a few days and, like, I got to get out or it starts to kind of creep into my pores a little bit.
You're not based in Washington.
You're in Nashville area?
Yeah.
Yeah, middle Tennessee area.
Yep.
Okay.
Nice, nice.
I like Nashville a lot, I'll be honest.
I like Vegas a lot, too.
Not to always be on the strip, but, like, lived there for, like, five months or so.
and there's honestly a ton of natural beauty around there i love that like you can go 20
minutes outside the city and be in the middle of a what looks like a martian landscape my biggest
critique is that there's just no trees man like there's just there's just no trees and i like no
trees no shade man uh it's brutal and uh but yeah it's awesome it's an awesome place to kind of do
outdoorsy stuff if you catch it the right way and you're cool with the weather it's it's a really
fun area outside the strip but man yeah you we camp out of the strip for a week and it's going
to be a month before you're back to baseline. Yeah, yeah, seriously. Well, and I assume that
you guys have kind of hit the ground running coming back into this because you do have the
summit coming up. I want to give a shout out to that too. So for anyone that doesn't know,
you are with the Bitcoin Policy Institute. You guys do have a summit coming up June 25, 26,
Washington, DC. I will be there, which I'm very stoked about. My lovely wife will be there as well.
btcpolicysummit.org and you can use the promo code walker for 25 off and i am not getting paid
to say that and i'm getting no kickbacks from you using that promo code you just get 21 off for
using it for being a fan of this show so i'm just excited to uh to come and do some orange
pilling in the swamp to be honest yeah we're excited to have you man glad you're gonna be
able to make it up and and the whole family uh gonna be able to join appreciate the shout out
it's going to be a great couple days. I think that anyone who joins will be like very pleasantly
surprised at the experience and come away with an appreciation, not just for like our work or
whatever, but like, probably that hopefully that but but hopefully like the what we're up against
and what we're trying to achieve in Washington, DC as an industry and as like a network.
You know, I think it's honestly, like, I love what you guys are doing. And I think a lot of
Bitcoiners. And I've myself had this thought before thinking about it more deeply that like,
ah, you know, we shouldn't even engage with the political apparatus at all. You know,
Bitcoin doesn't care. Bitcoin doesn't, you know, doesn't need politicians. Politicians need Bitcoin.
And yes, that is something I agree with and say all the time myself. However, it's one of those
situations where it's like, you may not care about politics, but politics cares about you.
America, I think, is a place where the American idea is very closely aligned with the Bitcoin ethos.
It's a good place for Bitcoiners. We want to keep it that way, ideally. And that does necessarily
involve some engagement at the political level. So it's like, again, you don't have to love it.
You don't even have to partake in it. But I think it's good that there are people that are doing it
like yourselves at BPI. I think it is a necessary thing. And I'd rather have politicians that are
pro-Bitcoin than anti-Bitcoin. Like it's as simple as that. Right. I think you're, you nailed it.
Maybe probably not, not too much left to say. There's, there's a couple of different ways of
looking at it, you know, more kind of the more cynical side of, you know, if you're the old saying,
if you're, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. And so that's one way. And then I think
the more, you know, generous or more, you know, hopeful way of, of viewing things, I think both
are appropriate for the record.
The other way of looking at it is like somebody told you about Bitcoin.
And if somebody hadn't talked to you about it, I mean, some people, I guess, organically
discovered it, like they're developers and they're on, you know, but somebody told me
about Bitcoin and explained it to me.
And at first, I didn't really get it.
And then I thought it was like kind of cool.
And then I was like, wait, I figured this thing out.
This isn't real.
And then you have this whole journey of understanding what Bitcoin is, why it's useful, and then
And then thinking you've figured it out and why it's not useful and why some other thing is going to beat it.
And then you're like, oh, actually, I'm wrong again.
And you talk to some other people and you're educated.
You become kind of a kindergartner in Bitcoin terms of your Bitcoin education.
And then you begin to understand more and more and you're curious about more things.
And some people kind of stop there.
They don't have time for it.
It's not really their thing, but they appreciate it.
And that's what we're trying to achieve in DC is trying to make every elected official a Bitcoiner who's like running home mining rigs.
If they want to, great.
But we want to get them to the point where they at least appreciate the technology, appreciate the use case and have a baseline understanding so they're not completely wrong about everything with regards to Bitcoin.
That's actually far more dangerous than any other outcome.
It's someone thinking they understand something when they actually do not.
But it's like, would you rather have, you know, a bunch of Senator Elizabeth Warren's or Senator Cynthia Lummis's?
Like, which one would you rather have?
I'll take Senator Lummis 100 times out of 100, like, without question.
Although Elizabeth Warren does at least make for some good memes.
And it's nice to have something to push back against.
Yeah, we need a good villain.
You know, there's, you know, we're not we're not much without a good villain.
But in all seriousness, yeah, we're spoiled rotten with Senator Lummis.
I think I've said this a few times here lately.
Most industry groups would saw off their arm to have a Senator Lummis on their sideline, on their team in Washington.
It's a rare feat to have someone who not only is that public and that strong of a champion for your cause,
but to do so in a way that is just like so cool.
And,
uh,
to,
you can just tell she actually really cares and really gets it and really
appreciates not just Bitcoin,
but,
uh,
you know,
Bitcoiners.
And I mean,
she's one of us.
Right.
And that's,
that's incredibly rare.
It's a rare gift.
And I,
I hope we never take her for granted.
Um,
and so,
yeah,
I mean,
while I'd love to have,
you know,
a dozen llamas is up there on the Hill.
I think,
I'll take – we have – you mentioned the summit. We have around 10 congressmen confirmed, a few senators, and some congressmen. I'll take that every day of the week of those who are publicly saying, hey, you don't have to love this, but here's how we treat certain industries, and we should treat them fairly.
Great. I think it makes sense for self-custody and non-custodial tools to exist, and they shouldn't be prosecuted for that. Fantastic.
You don't have to love Bitcoin to think it's important that we're able to maintain certain freedoms.
And so I'll take that every day over someone who's – like a lot of politicians get a bad rap for representing or like kind of publicly saying they support something when it's maybe a cynical meme.
I just appreciate people who look at it, say this is what it is.
The same rule should apply to everyone.
This is about freedom. And we'll back us for that reason. I'll take that every day of the week. That's what we're trying to do. And the more elected officials interact with Bitcoiners with, you know, kind of interact with Bitcoin, just like use it, understand it, hear from human rights activists.
they get it pretty quickly. Most of them are pretty smart people. And they're like,
oh, yeah, it just makes sense. I think we've had a little bit of a marketing.
I personally think Bitcoin has a funny marketing problem or has had that in the past.
Again, like you said, it doesn't need our help. I don't think it needs anyone's help.
You know, it's done pretty well on its own.
But the people, the way we all talk about it is sometimes kind of funny.
And I see where people get confused.
You know, like if you ever met with a mechanical engineer, you know, you've got some minor problem with your car.
And they talk you through like how someone built your car and how they would have built it differently.
And, you know, it's a – the Bitcoin community is a family primarily of engineers.
and we're trying to explain Bitcoin to someone
who does not think like an engineer and politicians
and most of the public, in fact.
And so, you know, sometimes I think we're actually too smart
and we can over-explain things
and over-complicate things unnecessarily
when we just need to kind of put it on the table.
Here's what it is.
Here's why it matters.
Here's how it's helpful.
And here's why it's important in the United States
to seize an advantage that's right there on the table
for the taking.
and so you can kind of play that patriotic angle too if you want.
But on its own merits, I think freedom technology is important
and I think you explain that with some bullet points.
Most people in Washington are like, oh yeah, that makes sense.
I never really thought about it that way.
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T-O. Well, I think it's interesting too, because Bitcoin is such a litmus test, right? It's basically
a test to say, do you actually care about individuals having freedom? Do you care? Like,
if you are, in my opinion, if you are anti-Bitcoin, excuse me, if you are anti-Bitcoin,
that is anti-American. Like to be anti-Bitcoin is to be anti-American. It is to be against
freedom. It is to be against the freedom to transact, to hold your own money, to not be
debased, like it is frankly unpatriotic to be anti-Bitcoin, Elizabeth Warren. And I think that
that's such an interesting test. Like if you can have Bitcoin explained to you by in a very simple
and coherent way and to say, look, this is about individual liberty. This is about the freedom to
actually own property, the freedom to transact with anyone you choose to. It's about the freedom
to save the value of your time and energy. If you can have that explained to you and then somehow
still come away saying, I don't like this Bitcoin thing. I'd say you don't really have the interest
of the American people or people in general at heart. Like, I think that's a pretty fair statement
to make. And I would, I think that's why, again, the work that you guys are doing is so important
because it has to start with education. It's, we were talking before this, it's easy to forget
that all of us started from a place of zero knowledge. Like you, like you said earlier,
you know, we, somebody explained it to us or we went down the rabbit hole, whatever,
but we started from a place of zero knowledge. 99 point something percent of the world is currently
at that place of basically zero knowledge or only what they've seen on the news about it,
which is not great, right? We have to start somewhere and it has to start with education.
And I think that's why having these conversations again, you'd rather have people that are at least
mildly educated about Bitcoin and can say, yeah, this is something I'm for versus I don't really
know what this is knee jerk i'm against it because i heard that it's money for criminals and drug
dealers money launderers etc etc or you know whatever whatever you know uh trope it may be
and so i'm i'm curious too you know uh maybe we can before we we dive too deep can you just give
a little background of yourself who are you how did you get here today to be to be working uh with
bpi is like the kind of i think employee number like number one you said right like you were
which is pretty awesome. What, what was that journey? Cause I think your background here
is really important in terms of setting the tone for what you're doing now and how you're
able to be successful at it. Yeah, sure. Uh, great question. Yeah. I, uh, before I even had
heard of Bitcoin, uh, I, uh, I spent about a decade in the political world, uh, in my career.
So I, you know, I mean, bio, we can just do it. Like I got out of school and was, you know, bouncing around like like one does.
I was actually working at a factory after college because I, you know, I was like a lot of people who study philosophy in school.
You get out and you're like, oh, you know, what do you do?
And so anyway, I was doing some factory work right after college and it's pretty good for me.
Really, I think everyone should do that right after college.
It's a good contrast with the university experience.
I ended up saying, oh, yeah, you know, this politics thing is kind of interesting.
So running state and local, working on state and local campaigns.
And, you know, you it's a lot like door to door sales right when you start.
I mean, you're knocking thousands of doors in the summer heat.
You meet tons of interesting people.
You have conversations with people across the political spectrum.
I think that's another thing I recommend to like young people who are just kind of getting in their careers, like do some door to door work.
So I think in the first year or so, I knocked 10,000 doors, you know, roughly.
It's what you want to do is a roll of 10,000 and for candidates.
And that was my whole job.
So we're like, you know, state representative races and that sort of thing.
There's like basic work.
And we won a few races.
It kind of got into the more the campaign side and planning side.
And then from there, it was just about eight years in that world working on more of the issue side.
So you can run political campaigns for candidates.
You can run issue campaigns.
And so people go vote when they think of a campaign of voting for this person.
Normally, I think of presidential candidates, the big ones.
There are down-ballot issues that you can vote on, like should our state do X, Y, Z?
Should our state cut taxes?
or whatever that are not lobbying, that are still campaign focused.
That's kind of where I camped out.
And we worked in 30, 40 different states, depending on the year and the project.
We had a lobbying team.
We had a full-scale production team video and everything.
So it was just one house, one big shop.
And I got to be a part of all of that over the time I was involved in that industry.
And it was really great.
I ended up spending some hard time as a lobbyist.
Uh, and, uh, that was interesting, uh, kind of learned the ropes there, um, and got exposure
across, uh, across that ecosystem.
So, uh, can I, can I ask you, uh, if you don't mind, uh, what, what industry or industries
were you lobbying for?
Uh, primary client was a large chain of diagnostic imaging centers.
Uh, you know, at one point in time.
Yeah, I mean, it was kind of like you're a higher – you take on clients like you're a consultant.
Think of it like that.
But you also want to – I've kind of got a whole bit on lobbyists.
I think that's interesting to me.
Just – you look at like pop culture.
You look at media and the way lobbyists are perceived.
And obviously the smoke-filled rooms and all that kind of thing you see.
I'm sure, yes, that's true, especially at the federal level.
But I mean, you know, the further you, you know, the more local you get, the more like good old boy, like I know the person I'm shaking hands with thing it is.
But also it's like way more room for corruption.
And so, you know, it's like more personal.
It's better, but also worse.
And so, you know, it's interesting.
But I think lobbyists get bad rap.
I mean, most of the lobbyists I worked with and that I know and I'm still friends with are, you know, they built their career off being trustworthy resources for elected officials.
If you think of like state houses, especially, you have my dad was a state representative actually for eight years.
And my home state had term limits, which I think are fantastic, a fantastic idea that we should examine more closely.
We term limit presidents, you know.
So anyway, he did that when I was like, you know, when I was growing up and I kind of so I think that helped to like kind of see some things.
But he was a butcher.
You owned a little grocery store.
He was a butcher and cattle farmer.
And one day somebody's like, you should run for office.
And I guess he took him seriously and did it.
Lost.
Lost the race and was embarrassed, you know, and picked himself up.
And a few years later, ran again and won and had a whole second career doing that.
and uh it was really cool you know for me to see uh you know i was i was the first one for my family
to go to college and so you know everybody else is kind of like more blue collar like doing this
and going and he really went for it and uh so he's in you know the state house very little experience
in business owner like pretty sharp guy but um so there are some things that you know you you're
you're elected you're really good at some things maybe you're a doctor maybe you're an attorney
uh maybe you're a butcher and your community says we want you to represent us because there's things
that are really important to us and you know let's call out the bullshit on whatever you know
and so you're really good at this but there's this whole other thing like diagnostic imaging
centers for instance that you're like i don't first of all i don't know what that is you know
and uh and so oh x-ray machines you know and so you uh you need someone who understands that
and understands the second and third order impacts of decisions you make as an elected
official and the laws you pass. If you lie, if you're a jerk, you get one shot and then most
people never trust you again, never work with you again. If you are good at your job, if you educate
people, if you help teach them and you make them look good, not yourself look good, if you make the
elected officials look good, then you're going to have massive success. And so the best lobbyists
I know are actually just, you know, really smart people who are, who really know their
industry have worked in it forever.
Most of them have, you know, are in the industry and retired out and they're not, you know,
this, and so that's the most common misconception.
That's why I kind of like took that, you know, side road here with you.
But I think it's, it's mostly when I say it, they're like, oh, I never thought about it
like that before.
Yeah.
By the way, this is a safe space for tangents and side roads always.
So feel good.
So I mean I think that kind of fascinating And I mean I guess maybe this is what we did not get to yet but how did you go from that then to Bitcoin Like what was that stepping stone for you where now you are like this is what you doing You not a lobbyist now You guys are a nonprofit and a think tank And like maybe we can talk about kind of the distinctions there later because I think that is important But how did you make that jump
Yeah, yeah.
Thanks for getting me back on.
So I was like COVID times, all sorts of things.
And I had got into, I kind of got really interested in Bitcoin for many years.
I wish I had, you know, then I wish my purchasing had tracked with my level of interest like most people.
But I was like really, I thought it was really interesting from a distance and kept an eye on it and asked.
asked somebody, I like, like some random people who to follow on Twitter. And I got a Twitter,
you know, Twitter account at the time, just to learn about Bitcoin. And one of the, you know,
one of one of the must follows was was actually Odell. And so I followed him religiously for many
years, and, and some others and ran into people at meetups, kind of went to start going to meetups.
And it's a funny story with, I think it was Odell, actually.
I was talking with him and, you know, we're going to have this similar conversation.
Like, oh, how'd you get into Bitcoin?
Like, what do you do?
And I was like, I'm not telling anyone here.
Of course, I show up like in a blazer.
You know, I'm like, oh, we're going to a, it's like a conference, you know?
I'm like, everybody looks at me at the meetup, like I'm a Fed, you know?
And I'm just like, oh, I thought it was, I assumed it was a business professional type
of situation.
And, you know, Bitcoiners all look like they just came out of the coal mines.
uh and so uh like oh i'm i stand out like a sore thumb um and uh so anyway i started realizing like
i'm not gonna tell anybody about the whole i'm a lobbyist right now thing you know i don't really
know if i'm i don't know if that's welcome here like i just couldn't really dial in the vibe
and uh after a while i realized like these are just like chill people cool people um that are
themselves and um and i kind of mentioned to a few people what i did and they're like oh have you
met the BPI team, you know, and I was like, I don't even know what that is. So I get to know
David and Grant, the co-founders of Bitcoin Policy Institute. And, you know, within a couple months,
I had actually quit my job and I was no longer in politics. I got burned out. I was kind of out
of the loop for a couple of years on the heels of, you know, just some major projects and overhaul
in our political system. And so I kind of took a, it was a good time. I took a sabbatical before I
I got back in and I was assured, hey, you're a Bitcoiner who works in politics.
You're not working in politics.
You're working on Bitcoin.
But we're going to go do this work.
And that's held true as the ethos of BPI since inception and since the early days.
We're focused on Bitcoin.
We're honored.
We try to represent the industry and the network the best we can.
We don't represent everyone.
uh, we just, uh, do our work and, and try to, uh, you know, try to educate everyone we can about
Bitcoin, but we, we try to be stewards of the name at least. And, uh, and so if you're going
to put Bitcoin, anything on your, in your organization or your company, I think you've
got our, your, or your damn podcast Walker, you know, you got a responsibility there and people
are going to hold you to it. Uh, like it or not want it, don't want it, whatever they're going to.
And I think that's a really good thing about our community.
No, I agree.
It's like if you're taking the Bitcoin name, it should not be in vain.
Like you better mean it.
And I appreciate the background because I always think it's fascinating how people got into Bitcoin and then found themselves working in this wild emergent industry.
And so maybe let's get into BPI specifically a little bit.
Maybe just like, so what are you doing for BPI?
Can we maybe just even take a step back further?
Like how, so BPI is not a lobbyist group.
It's a think tank.
I think think tank also kind of has this like mystique about it, right?
For us like non-DC people where it's like think tanks.
So they're just, you know, taking a bunch of, you know,
taking a bunch of money to come up with policies that, you know, benefit,
you know, who God only knows who. And I feel like it's another thing where there's kind of this,
this like stink to it for a lot of people. But can you can you talk a little about that? How is
that different? And just like, what is like, what is the mission of VPI? Yeah, that's a great
question. Yeah, the think tank thing is funny. Like, you know, you got thinkers and doers. And
so if you're a think tank, like, you don't, I guess that means you don't do anything.
And so, yeah, I think that's a great question. So BPI, Bitcoin Policy Institute, we're a 501c3 charity, first of all. So we're a nonprofit and think tank and advocacy organization.
organization. So as a, as a nonprofit, you know, just like the legal, like high level,
we're different than trade associations. We're different than lobbying firms, which are just
like, you know, are similar to like a law firm, you hire them to provide certain services.
So the difference there is we don't have members, people don't pay dues, people don't contract us
out to achieve certain things. And not those things are right or wrong or whatever. It's
just not what we do. So as a charity, we are supported completely off donations. And I told
you this earlier before we started, like my whole job, I'm the head of development for BPI.
And my whole focus is just making sure we can grow and scale and continue operations and take
care of certain projects that we're working on. But back over to our mission and why we exist.
On the research side, we have around two dozen fellows. And many of those you know, I know you're
friends with like the Troy crosses of the world.
Matt Pines was a fellow for a long time.
Now he's at our executive director at BPI, which is awesome, man.
We're thrilled to have him on board full time.
It's a, it was a coup for us as an org.
And, but you know, Margo Paez and I could list them all.
I'm sorry if I didn't say your name.
I'm like, I'll list all 24 fellows, but they are not employees at BPI.
They are out, you know, in the world, they're professors, PhD.
some of the, I think, smartest, brightest minds focusing and thinking about Bitcoin in the world.
And that's why we've brought them on. We're lucky to have them. And we give them per DMs or things,
or we may, in some cases, buy out some of their course load. So instead of teaching five classes,
they'll teach four classes. And then one class, instead of teaching it, they're able to just
really focus in and like do some like deep dive research on, you know, renewables and Bitcoin
mining or whatever, you know, or Bitcoin and national security or, you know, something that
I probably don't completely understand because it's an 80 page white paper, but like really
important. And so, so that's what we, we empower them to do. Now, some think tank, there's a number
of different models and it really depends on the industry and what you're trying to achieve.
I think like if you were like, you know, focused on like volcanoes at the deepest part of the ocean that no one's explored before and, you know, how one degree of temperature could change, you know, the entire ecosystem of, you know, some special type of whale type of think tank, then you're probably more on the like think tank side and less on the advocacy side, right?
for us, we see this as all fairly strategic. We think, you know, we let these fellows,
we empower them to do independent research, you know, mining companies, for instance,
like if you're a mining company, like, great job, we love you. But like, if you're like,
here's the research on Bitcoin mining that our mining company did, and you put that before
Congress, you know, that may or may not hold as much weight as a third party disinterested, nonpartisan, nonprofit group that focuses solely on doing research saying, hey, here's our paper on this.
And I think like mining companies understand that many of them, they they support our work.
And we really appreciate that if you come to our when you come to our summit, you'll see many of them sponsored our summit.
And they're like, hey, go do your thing.
Keep doing it.
And we don't, you know, it's not like a trade group.
It's like they're like, wow, you guys are just doing it.
Like, go do your thing.
I don't know where you're finding these people are doing the research.
Fantastic work.
Like, love it.
Keep going.
And we really appreciate that.
So that's kind of the vibe on the think tank side.
And then what we do, it's a little unique.
We have the whole advocacy side.
We have a government affairs team.
We have a public policy team.
We engage with Capitol Hill in a number of different ways,
elected officials and staffers. And we were saying, hey, let's do this baseline education.
Like, what do you need to know about Bitcoin? What are you working on? Oh, you're working on this.
And, you know, does Bitcoin fit into this? Or what do your constituents think? What are they
saying about Bitcoin? Oh, have you thought about this? And so we help them sort of form and shape
their understanding. And then we'll bring in these white papers, this research,
and it helps us have something to stand on.
We're not just saying things.
We have thousands of hours of very smart, talented,
like check all the boxes of everything you need to
in Washington in order for someone to take you seriously
as a research program caliber, white papers.
And we're like, and this is where we're getting all this.
We're not just saying that, you know,
Bitcoin is really important for the United States,
especially from like a national security nation state power network type of thing we have been
writing about this for four years matt pines wrote a white paper on this like literally like
four years ago it was the first white paper we published and now boom uh reality is kind of caught
up u.s china lots of things go tectonic plates shifting and we're seeing yeah well this is this
is pretty important. So that's kind of how it works. Like behind the scenes, our mission is
really simple. Like we want to educate Washington, DC on Bitcoin. We've always said like our,
you know, kind of point of departure, like when Grant and David first started BPI, it was like,
hey, we think one day, Washington, DC is going to take Bitcoin seriously. Like there's going to come
a day. And I think if you didn't think that, then you don't believe in Bitcoin. You don't think
believe Bitcoin was going to be successful. Because if Bitcoin is going to be successful,
then eventually the largest nation in the world is going to say, what's that all about? What's
going on with that? Anyone who thinks that Bitcoin could become successful, and the United States
government was just gonna be like, ah, you know, fifth largest asset in the world, cow, figure it
out later, you're out of your mind, this is not how it works. And maybe you wish it worked that
way. And that's fine, but it doesn't. And so, you know, at some point, that gnat flying around the
head of nation states, they're going to say, I'm tired of this stupid fly. Or they're going to think,
oh, what an interesting fly. And so we figured they're going to take it seriously one way or
the other. Let's start working now before Bitcoin's the number one asset, number one market cap,
largest asset in the planet surpasses gold. Let's go ahead and start educating a little now
so that we have allies, so we have people that understand it. The worst case scenario to me,
Walker, I'm curious what you think, is one of the worst case scenarios. There are many worst
case scenarios in the world. But with regards to Bitcoin and the government, the worst case
scenario would be bitcoin just boom out of nowhere you know 10 trillion market cap or whatever or you
know blows past gold and a bunch of people get in the room and watching you see and they're like
what's up with this bitcoin thing and nobody knows and they're like yeah i heard it's like a scam or
i heard you know i remember the ftx thing like that was a total rug pull um i don't know but like
this is endangering the entire financial system like we got to kill it like we got to figure it
out. We need to ban mining, whatever they would want to do. And you say, well, they couldn't kill
Bitcoin. Probably not, but they sure as hell could try. It sure wouldn't be fun in the meantime,
right? And so that's what we want to avoid. We want people to, you know, have them like, oh,
yeah, I've actually met with many Bitcoiners over the last, you know, five, 10 years. And
I think this is actually really important. And I'm glad it's successful. And I actually think
the United States, I think we benefit from this. I think the world benefits from this. And here's
why. And if we want to talk more in depth, like, let me bring some people in who know a lot about
it. That's where we want to be at. I would agree that that would be a massive risk because you're
right. I mean, can a single government instituting prohibitive Bitcoin policies kill Bitcoin? No,
of course not. And we've got a great example of this in the China mining ban, right? Oh, no,
hash rate goes off a cliff overnight after like, wasn't that like their 10th ban? But this time
they were super serious, I guess. And hash rate went off a cliff. But you know what, that hash
it came right back. And a lot of it found its way to America, to Texas, to other states. Great.
Thanks, China. Like bad mood for you. Great news for us. So they wouldn't be able to kill it,
but they can certainly make it a pain in the ass to hold and use Bitcoin in a way that respects the
law. And you might say, well, you know, I don't need to respect the law. And that's fine. You can
do whatever you want. The point is that the government can either make it very difficult
for you to do things that are, of course, within your just, let's say, natural rights, like to
have private property, to have privacy, to transact anonymously or pseudonymously.
But they can also make that really difficult, or they can put laws in place which actually
protect your rights to do that. People forget that the point of laws is to protect you from
the government, not for the government. The government doesn't give you rights,
but they can try to prohibit your rights by making terrible laws.
So again, it's like, which would you rather have?
Would you rather have good laws that protect your rights?
Or would you rather have bad laws that infringe upon your rights?
Because those are basically your two options.
And or just somewhere in the middle, I guess,
which is just really garbage over the top,
you know, bureaucratic laws that just make it a pain in the butt
to do absolutely anything.
So yeah, I'm, you know, and I'm,
I think that you guys have obviously shifted the needle or you've moved the needle to a huge extent.
The fact that Vice President Vance gave a direct shout out to you guys at the Bitcoin conference in Vegas, that was pretty huge.
Can you talk about that a little bit?
Because that must have been quite a moment for you guys.
Yeah, it was a really cool moment.
we were all on the live desk actually uh me matt pines and zach shapiro uh before the vice president
spoke and kind of you know what are we expecting to hear you know kind of the whole news desk thing
and um and we were sitting there let's say we're like it's good speech you know and he kind of went
here and they started hitting some things we're like man he's really throwing some haymakers and
then he was like yeah you know and thanks to the work of people like the bitcoin policy institute
And we were just like, we all looked at each other like, did one of you meet with this team or something?
It was like, no, we have no idea.
And so it was really cool.
And I think, yeah, I mean, it was like, it was a cool moment.
It was an awesome moment.
But I think what's really neat about it to me is that within the context of his whole speech.
So he was just driving nails, especially the second half, talking about Bitcoin being a hedge against inflation.
actually i have a couple notes uh yeah yeah can you like yeah walk through kind of like what
what jumped out at you and at the bpi team from that speech that you were like okay this is yeah
like great this is what you should be saying yeah he so he kind of went kind of getting his you know
getting his mojo you know kind of like fired gary ginsler like three or four times in a row and like
because trump had the big laugh about it yeah you know when he spoke in in nashville and kind of
benefits of Bitcoin, kind of just like top level vague and like what you would expect.
And then about halfway through, it kind of seemed like he maybe, you know, he kind of
just got into it.
Maybe he went off script a little bit.
And so, especially with a shout out to us, I don't think his speechwriter put that in
there, but I don't know.
It's just a guess.
But yeah, he was like, you know, here's like Bitcoin super important.
Like it gives us, it gives people expanded access to banking.
uh bitcoin's a hedge against uh central government control a hedge against inflation
private sector censorship debanking like those are like okay this guy gets it a little bit uh
he started calling bitcoiners digital pioneers which was like you know i don't think he's the
first one to say that but it was like pretty cool uh really cool way to describe it um he's talked
about the desire to, to, of his team and like DC should be listening to our industry and learning
from us. And I think that's probably where he mentioned BPI was like, people like BPI are,
are helping us with that. Uh, just being a constant resource and like staying very focused on Bitcoin
and Bitcoin only, which we're one of the only groups that can say that, uh, we're proud of that.
We wear that like a metal around our necks. Like, yeah. And it's always going to be that way. Like
we are about Bitcoin. We're Bitcoin focused. We don't, we don't, we don't really stray outside
that. We may talk about CBDCs. We may talk about stables, but like, you know, because of legislation
and different things going on, I think those are on the table and everybody, but really like
Bitcoin is the only thing that matters. And here's why. It's not the crypto policy Institute.
Let's just say. It sure as hell isn't. And then he said that Bitcoin and Bitcoiners deserve the
respect and support from the government uh which you know i agree with since we elected them and
put them there and pay for them to be there but you know uh but yeah for a politician to say that
i think is great um versus he said being torn down by bureaucracy and uh and he mentioned the
whole like you know operation choke point 2.0 being taken down promises made promises kept and
And then he encouraged everybody to be involved in the 2026 campaigns and engage there.
And to your point, he didn't say this in his speech, but he alluded to it.
And I think what you just said, like policy being focused on protecting your rights.
And to some listeners, they may say, well, I don't need the government to tell me I can do X, Y, Z.
I can.
I don't want them to give me permission to do it.
I'm a free person.
And I'm like, I get it, man.
Hey, I'm right there with you.
But if you look at what's just happened to non-custodial services, they're getting thrown in prison.
So you don't need them to tell you.
But I also don't want to move to China.
And I don't want to get thrown in prison for coding and building a website.
And so they're wrong about that.
But let's go ahead and fix the law and spell it out a little bit.
If you've ever been in a lawsuit, thank God I haven't been.
You know, it can be not fair.
It can not be right.
But, like, you better defend yourself or you're going to lose the lawsuit.
And that's how it is with the government.
So, anyway, a little tangent.
But the other thing about J.D.'s speech, man, and this may be obvious to some people, but some people kind of was talking about this, and I thought it was interesting.
The thing that struck me the most was, like, this is the vice president.
You know, President Trump spoke last summer.
Now we got the number two guy.
President Trump didn't speak last summer.
That was a guy running for president.
That was a campaign stop.
Like Nashville, he was running for president.
And he was campaigning all over the place, barnstorming across the country.
And I'll blame him.
Hey, 30,000 people in Nashville.
Let's pop in, rally the base a little bit.
And I think what he encountered was like, oh, these people are a little different.
Like the whole Gary Gensler thing, he didn't expect anybody to applaud.
That's why he repeated it three times.
He's like, this is awesome.
Like, yeah, let's go.
I'm going to fire him right now.
And so, you know, it doesn't mean it wasn't like important in a watershed moment.
It absolutely was.
But he was a guy running for office and props.
He kept campaign promises and did all the kind of things he said he was going to do.
But at Vegas, this was a sitting vice president.
This guy's not running for office.
He's not campaigning right now.
and so why is he there well i think it kind of speaks for itself i think he i think he met what
he said i think he was there for a purpose and uh and so i think that's the most like incredible
thing about it the other side is he is sitting last i checked plus 1 000 odds uh or plus 300 odds
on being the next or maybe it's 250 plus 250 plus 300 30 odds against the field of being the next
president united states next closest is plus 1000 gavin newsom aoc on jr uh are the next closest
they're all plus one so he's like 30 everybody else is like five percent so you have likely
I mean, you have the current vice president and the probable future president.
So you've got two, then four, potentially a 10-year runway here where you have someone in the White House who gets it and appreciates Bitcoin.
I think that's a huge win.
We can't obviously BPI take credit for that, and I'm not trying to.
I'm just saying I think it's awesome.
for us, like we take meetings with anyone who'll meet with us.
We don't just work with Republicans.
We're a nonpartisan think tank,
but we can't make people who won't meet with us, meet with us.
Like we can't, we can't educate Elizabeth Warren.
You know, I'd love to meet with Elizabeth Warren.
I would love it.
I sit down with her tomorrow and explain why I think, you know, what I think.
And she, you know, I'd love to meet with her team
and hopefully show them the light a little bit.
That'd be a funny meeting, but it'd be a blast.
You know, why not? And that's the posture we take. That goes a long way in DC because most people aren't like that.
Yeah. I mean, I think that people, uh, people need to remember that like Bitcoin is inherently political because money is inherently political, but being political does not make it partisan.
You can try to make it partisan.
You can try to put your whatever partisan bent on it you want.
This is a red team thing, not a blue team thing.
But the reality is Bitcoin doesn't care.
Money will always be political, necessarily so.
But that does not make it partisan.
And honestly, I mean, you are only hurting yourself as either a candidate or a political party by being either ignorant or anti-Bitcoin.
And I think that that is showing to be very true and will continue to, that's only going to ramp up because Bitcoiners are becoming an increasingly dominant economic and political force.
You don't want to have that against you. You'd rather have that for you. And I think politicians are starting to wake up to that.
Have you seen any sort of positive developments on the Democratic side of the aisle versus, like, we know that there's a good number of very vocal Republicans who are pro-Bitcoin.
What about on the Democratic side?
Are you seeing more movement there?
Yeah, I think so.
We have Congressman Torres speaking at the summit here in a couple weeks.
Congressman Ro Khanna spoke at our March event And I think a lot increasing number of Democrat congressmen get it Staffs get it There some you know some really brilliant
people on that side of the aisle. You get a bad rap for some of the little Elizabeth Warrens of
the world that just, you know, almost like, you know, it's almost like a bad joke,
uh refused to understand uh some things but uh yeah i don't think i don't see bitcoin as a
political football uh to be kicked back and forth depending on who's in charge i think it's
ridiculous it's like like i you know you know money is political uh but not partisan it's like
saying you're it's like which party likes music you know uh i don't know like what what do you
how does that even work i'm sure at one point there was a political party who was like we don't
need any more you don't need this music running around uh or uh you know the internet like who
if you if you tie your whole existence or your whole like platform to like this internet it's
uh ridiculous it's going to be the end of us you know it might be they may have been right
but uh the internet you know it's it's uh it's bad for our country to be to lead when it comes
to the internet in the early 90s.
There was actually a,
I was doing a research project on like,
you know, some messaging.
And like, I was trying to look at
other think tanks and advocacy groups
that were like similar to ours
and like, you know,
how they were successful
and sorts of things last year.
And I came across the Internet Policy Institute
of the early 90s.
Their mission and vision statements
were like eerily similar to ours.
And I'm sure, you know,
some of the guys have heard of them and stuff,
but like, it wasn't like we were trying to cut.
It was like, no, it's very similar.
And they were like, yeah, you know,
it felt like they're taking crazy pills.
And I'm sure we felt like this, you know,
you have, and I have as Bitcoiners,
you're like this internet thing.
It's a huge deal, man.
It's going to take over the world.
Like, what do you, you guys aren't listening to me.
Like the internet is coming.
The internet age is here, you know?
And politicians are like,
look at those stupid internet guys again.
They're always trying to get me to speak at their thing.
Like, you know, again, you know, let's,
and I'm sure it was similar.
Reading their stuff, it was just like,
I felt like I was reading my own diary.
And I know everybody talks about the bit,
Bitcoin's like the early days of the internet,
but it really was like when you read these think tanks,
they're just trying to convince like these elected leaders of something
that they can't comprehend yet.
and they're like i just need you to trust me man like the united states needs to take this
seriously and thankfully we did look at us now you know um we led the free world you can imagine
if we didn't there's some alternative versions of history that would have you know potentially
been really troubling and i think i mean that that is such a great uh analogy for or you know
comparison for Bitcoin. Cause it's like, again, uh, as an American, obviously like I, I, I love my
country. I don't, uh, love my government. I don't think you should like love your government. You
should be cautious of your government. You should, uh, generally treat it with, uh, with some scorn
derision and a healthy dose of skepticism, uh, because ultimately an overblown and bloated state
apparatus is only going to lead to totalitarianism. But that being said, I love America and I love
the American people and I love the American idea and I love the American constitution.
And I think that that is a really powerful force for good in the world. What the American
government has often done around the world is often not a force for good, but that does not
mean America as a nation is, is in any way irredeemable. And we also, I mean, if you,
there's a lot of places around the world that are, that respect your property rights and your
personal autonomy a hell of a lot less. And so I think if there's a place that is most,
let's say, ideologically and culturally aligned with Bitcoin right now, it is the United States
of America. And I think it's good for people to remember that. And again, we want it to stay that
way. And so that's why I think like, I'm curious, you know, of the initiatives that you guys are
working on now, you know, what do you, you know, what are kind of your key focus areas at the
moment. How do you even decide what parts of this to tackle? Because obviously, there's a lot that
goes into Bitcoin. Where do you guys apply the majority of your focus at the moment?
Yeah, yeah, that's a big question. And something we consistently, you know, evaluate and iterate on,
And, you know, I'll just say, well, you're kind of talking about our country.
I think we as it's funny, like I don't know if you're experiencing this with kids and having a family and everything.
You know, you always talk about like this generation or my generation.
We have an opportunity, you know, I see it as like we have an opportunity to improve or degrade our freedoms.
and improve or degrade our country
and leave it better or worse for like our kids
and our grandkids and whatever.
And I think just like that doesn't mean
that everything's perfect.
Everything is obviously not perfect in the United States,
especially with our government.
And we could have a whole,
you and I could just sit and have a whole
three-hour podcast about that.
But I think the fact that we can either improve
or degrade it is very, very valuable.
And that's why I love my country
is because I do have the opportunity to,
you know, it's easy, no.
Impossible, no.
To improve things and change things.
And you got to work your ass off sometimes
and you still lose, but you can do it.
And it's very possible.
And so that's why I'm going to be,
you know, blasting fireworks,
battle rockets on the 4th of July
with the tank top on, brother.
So, you know, I, I, I'm, that's, that's where I land.
With BPI, we, I think we have an advantage.
Like we are, we're in a really like sweet spot as an organization.
We have beefed up enough.
We've grown enough that we can, you know, kind of handle a number of things simultaneously.
Whereas there were years, there were times not, I mean, recently, like last year, where we had to really pick and choose.
We had to make hard decisions on what we were going to focus on because we had such limited bandwidth.
We were small, and we're still small, but we have increased our bandwidth.
We're up to a dozen employees.
And so I'm really proud of that growth and eternally grateful for the people who helped us get there.
But we can take on a few things and do them the right way.
I think that's the most important thing to us is like, whatever we do, we want to blow
it out of the water.
And that's how you earn a good reputation in the capital of our country.
You want to stand out.
And so one big thing we're doing here, and we've mentioned is the Bitcoin Policy Summit.
We've done this three years in a row.
It was a crazy idea the first time.
We did it really quickly and it came together.
And okay, Policy Summit events, great.
What is it like a Bitcoin conference in DC?
No, it's completely different.
This is suits and ties.
It looks like you're like, it looks boring to most people.
You're like, oh, policy.
Oh my gosh.
But I think it is fascinating.
We have Bitcoiners on stage and some elected officials.
But the goal of this is to educate the masses, to bring in hundreds of staffers to from a kindergarten to a, you know, junior 3000 level graduate level understanding of Bitcoin up and down that spectrum.
There's something for you there.
I think for most people who kind of have, they're like, I don't really know.
I'm like supposed to talk about digital assets with my job, but, you know, I'm getting, you know, misinformation or like mixed signals or I'm hearing from this group and this group and I don't know what to think.
Well, why don't you come learn about just Bitcoin for a day?
Let's just isolate one type of asset.
And let's just talk about it's the biggest one by a long shot.
And you've heard what about it?
Nothing.
uh it's what 60 of the market cap of all digital assets of you know all crypto uh and you've heard
you know what three percent of everything you've heard in dc was about bitcoin that sounds weird
i wonder why hmm wonder it almost seems like others they're spending a lot of money on marketing
uh so anyway uh i love this man i love talking with you about this this is this is fun but i
and I get to do all this.
Right back at you.
And save space for tangents.
Always.
I can always, I can keep that promise.
I am your guy for tangents.
So we did the summit and we had a bunch,
and they're like, man, this was so great.
I just get to sit and hear about Bitcoin for a day.
We explained the mining.
We brought in like professors,
we brought in mining companies
and we put them on stage.
We're like, explain to these,
explain to Washington DC what mining is,
why it's important oh all the bs stuff you hear about mining like talk about that too oh um money
laundering does somebody want to yeah okay let's get the x person just talk about money laundering
hey most people say bitcoin's used for money laundering that's not true here's why all right
we do this all day um human rights we holler at our friends at the hrf alex gladstein and all
them we're like bring a bunch of human rights activists and talk about how they use bitcoin
and we're just blowing minds uh we're just blowing people's minds so like i had no idea
so we're like all right let's run it back the next year uh or the first year it was like ftx
had just collapsed so the the funny thing i should have said this earlier uh it's just not warmed up
yet i joined bpi and it was like you know mary's like hey i'm doing the bitcoin think tank so i'm
to work. It's like, what's that? You still have to ask me that, right? Imagine my spouse who
doesn't know what any of those words are. She's brilliant, but she's like, what are you doing?
I was like, I don't know. This sounds awesome. She's like, do it. It sounds cool. You're excited
about it. Go for it. So I'm fortunate there. But yeah, it was like, I got this job. I'm going all
And a month later, like FTX collapses.
And I remember because I was at Pacific Bitcoin and it was just like, well, here we go.
And it was also a perfect time to come over in hindsight because we got to build during a bear, which is I know a lot.
But we did.
And we did build.
And you had to like, you had to kind of like soul search, like what's really important, you know, what are we really trying to do?
And so we did the summit like FTX collapsed.
Everybody thinks Bitcoin's a scam.
This was what our website said on the summit.
Everybody thinks Bitcoin's a scam, you know, you know, everybody lost millions of dollars.
Like who's to blame?
Is it Bitcoin?
Like come to the summit and find out.
And everybody did.
It's like we have nothing to hide.
That's the cool part.
That's what makes it like simple, not easy, but like really simple to advocate and to meet with people.
It's because we're right.
You know, like we're not lying about anything.
We're not full of it.
Like we are telling the truth and we're like, yeah, I mean, like, look, like, you know, inflation's through the roof and has been and always will be.
Your money's becoming worthless.
Everybody's aware of this.
Like something is lots of things are broken beyond repair.
And hey, check this out.
Like this is a really cool way of doing money.
And this is like really interesting.
And we're just beginning to tap into, you know, kind of the possibilities of like how, you know, mining is going to tie into our grid and all these sorts of things.
But like there's all kinds of cool stuff happening here.
Boys, like come on over.
like learn about and we're right like we're honest and so it makes it a lot easier um in a number of
ways because people can pick up on that uh politicians especially they're the best that
you know they're gonna they know if you're full of it man uh they're around people like that all
day long their entire lives and some of them might be that way themselves right so uh so yeah we um
that's what we do man and uh that's one big thing the summit uh we have like 600 people 700 people
come in uh we have 10 elected officials we have the uh deputy director of the cia has come to speak
at our summit saw that which is going to be sick and who knows what that guy's gonna say right
and maybe they'll announce they invented it right that's the announcement oh that would that would
be that'd be something so i better bring a burner phone also just i'm just going to assume the
you know yeah that's probably a good idea that's a good idea um yeah so we're we're uh
we you know we're gonna blow this out of the water and we live stream and we get millions
people watch it so it's a great like we see it as like we're building our like a megaphone
and you can shout through that for like a couple days and then out of that we have you know there's
a lot of publicity there's a lot of press there's a lot of doors that open to to new uh conversations
with like oh yeah so-and-so was talking about this i haven't met with you guys yet but i really
need to. Government agencies come and they're like, it's not just Bitcoin or not just us.
Or maybe it's nothing to do with us. Maybe it's one of our speakers that they're like,
oh, I really engage. I'm working on something I need to talk to you about. And now they're
working with the Bitcoin industry. And so it's just a way to open so many doors in a couple of
days. It's a lot of work. I know you've been involved with events and it's a lot of work.
It's a heavy lift, but it's worth every ounce of it.
And that's why we're running it back.
I think on the other, the policy priority side, to hit that, like our focus is the strategic
Bitcoin reserve, of course.
I mentioned like non-custodial tools, self-custody, like just there's a lot of legislation floating
around, Bitcoin Act.
We're keeping an eye on Genius and market structure stuff as well.
and monitoring that, like making sure that there's like the passive legislative monitoring,
like you're scanning the road for like landmines, like there's nothing here that's like super
dangerous, right?
Like that's more defensive and passive on the policy side.
And Zach Shapiro is like fantastic at that.
Like he's like a bird dog, man.
He's like, wait, they're trying to do this thing, man.
And so that's the passive side. And there's the active side, like, hmm, maybe a senator or congressman comes and says, I want to, you know, I'll just make something up. I want to like, you know, kind of do a bill of rights for noncustodial tools or whatever. Like, what would that look like? We're like, well, here's how I'd write it. You know, here's how I would phrase that.
And so, you know, we're kind of the experts in the room that kind of help advise and give feedback and have those off the record conversations.
And again, that's not a real story.
It's just an example of something that could happen.
Be cool if it was, though.
Some of that work, yeah, it would be cool.
Hey, maybe I want to build a like, you know, bill of rights like that.
It'd be great.
I'm sure somebody probably is working on it.
Whether it's, you know, policy priorities for offices.
We're, they kind of know what they want to do and we kind of help them.
You know, that's all we think about.
They're working on policy for everything all at once.
And so in that sense, you know, like I had mentioned lobbyists earlier, they're the educated
experts on something.
Now they're going out like pushing on specific bills and like taking people out to dinner
or doing all that kind of thing.
We don't do that.
But in that way, we are similar as advocates and as reliable resources that they're like,
oh, Bitcoin, that came up.
Let's go talk to BPI.
Those guys will let us know if this is legit or not.
They can kind of let me know, kind of help me out.
I can bounce ideas with them.
I know they're not going to go like tell the press about it.
So that's kind of the role we like to fill on that side.
And just being a reliable, trusted third party
that has your best interest in mind,
but we are diehard for our industry.
And we're going to fight tooth and nail
to improve outcomes for Bitcoiners
and Bitcoin companies and mining companies in America
because we think it's important that we can, like we talked about,
continue to exercise our freedoms.
We think those freedoms should be expanded.
And then we make the case on the other way, like, hey,
this is good for the United States.
Strategic Bitcoin Reserve, I'm sure you know the answer to this,
but I'm just going to ask you anyways.
You know what percent of all gold is held in the United States?
Have you heard these stats?
No, no, educate me.
10%.
10% of all gold is held in the United States.
You know what percent of, these are estimates,
but like roughly I think it seems to be,
you know what percent of Bitcoin is held in the United States?
What percent?
So I'm talking industry, individuals, government, whatever.
All put together own 10% of the gold supply.
Bitcoin is 40%.
Wow.
Yeah.
So if one was going to become more valuable,
like become very valuable which one would be a bigger benefit the united states well bitcoin
of course we got 4x the benefit so that's pretty compelling argument if you want to back something
with gold or bitcoin well i think you should back it they just look at them insane right i think
bitcoin is superior in many ways and we will make the case all day for that but just like look at
the just the just look at the x's zeros and ones man we have four times more of the bitcoin than we
do the gold. And so for American citizens, for American companies and the United States government,
it's like, that's an easy pick for me. That's massive. Well, can we talk about the SBR a
little bit and kind of like where you see, where are we at with that? Because obviously, I know a
lot of the language in that executive order was pulled from some of the work that you guys do at
BPI. I did think that that order was nice in that it separated Bitcoin and, quote, digital assets
very distinctly. Like it was, you know, we're going to save all the Bitcoin we have. We're going to
acquire more Bitcoin. We won't dispose of any Bitcoin. However, on the digital asset side,
we're not going to acquire any. We will dispose of some probably or we'll leave the door open to
that. And so it was nice to see that demarcation there, which, you know, obviously Bitcoin is not,
quote crypto uh but where where are we at as far as i know they had like initially had like 30 days
to to uh for all these agencies to report back and do that i mean that 30 days is obviously come
and gone i didn't see anything about that what what updates can you give on that as far as what
you know i don't have a ton of updates unfortunately walker uh you know i wish i i wish i did um it's
is still very much in flux uh yeah man always like it's you know anytime we can help out or chip in
um for the administration or anyone on uh language or whatever it's a it's a you know it's a privilege
to get to do it and i think with the sbr i think it's a massive win first of all like i think it's
a massive win uh we got the demarcation language in there like you said between bitcoin and other
types of digital assets. And I know some people wanted the buying program. I still think that's
on the table. I think Senator Lombus' Bitcoin Act is active and moving. And there's a lot in there
that I think people are going to be, people that are really excited about. And so I think we need
to expand the SBR. I think the buying program, where the money would come from, I mean, there's
a thousand different arguments for that. And, and then, you know, disclosure by agencies,
that's being held up. A lot of people don't completely know why there's a lot of bureaucratic,
you know, like you would expect a swampy type things going on. And I think, you know,
we have a rare opportunity. I'm not trying to like wiggle out of your question. But I think
the way I see it is we don't know exactly what's happening and why. I think, you know,
Pines can probably dig into that a little bit more with you or Shapiro, but I think that
we are still in this window of opportunity where we have to keep working and fighting.
and you know i don't what i don't want and i don't think many people thought this um just because
uh how bitcoiners are but like you know you got the executive order and you're like i'll set
game set match we did it boys and it doesn't work like that um that's a very important step
but you have to keep going you have to keep advocating there's more work to do
And, yeah, I personally think the SBR would be, you know, the buying program would be a phenomenal, like, gigabrain move for the United States.
It's like we talked about the internet.
Like, we have this advantage.
We have 40% of the Bitcoin.
We created a reserve.
We're not going to sell our Bitcoin.
It's like, dude, buy it, man.
Like, get a bunch.
Like you're going, you know, whatever.
Some people don't, you know, I get it.
Some people are like, I don't want the United States to have all that Bitcoin.
Just think like you're the United States, you know, like you're like, they really should do it.
They would see, you know, secure this massive advantage for the foreseeable future.
And I do, I would love it.
I think it'd be awesome.
And I think it would be good.
I think it would be really good for the Bitcoin network, the Bitcoin community.
I think it'd be good for US citizens.
And I think it would be good for everyone internationally who uses Bitcoin.
I think it's like a win-win-win.
So that's what I'm really passionate about.
I think it's a fantastic idea.
I think it's also important for people to realize,
this goes back to something you said earlier,
just that if Bitcoin was going to become successful,
of course the government's going to pay attention to it.
And I've said this a ton as well.
It's like, this is what winning looks like.
If Bitcoin was a loser, if Bitcoin had failed, then we wouldn't be having this conversation
because the US government wouldn't care.
But if Bitcoin was going to, if you believe that hyper-Bitcoinization is going to happen,
if you believe that Bitcoin is going to become the dominant money, the dominant network in
the world and suck in all of the value of the world, you must necessarily believe that
every government, every business, and every individual is going to hold Bitcoin.
And if you don't believe that, then you don't actually understand what's happening, A,
and you probably don't have that much conviction in a hyper-Bitcoinized future, B, which is fine.
But if you do think those are going to happen, if you do have conviction in Bitcoin, if you do
think Bitcoin is winning and will win, these are natural byproducts of that. It doesn't mean you
have to like it. It just means that this was going to be inevitable in the case where Bitcoin is
winning. And I think people miss that
a lot. It's okay to not like it.
I have some qualms of
my own about it, but
it's also going to happen either
way.
And we've got to remember
the government isn't Trojan horsing us.
We are Trojan horsing the government.
We just have to as American Hodel said Bitcoiners just need to know when to shut up when you inside the horse Like just be quiet guys They letting us in man
I know.
Just you guys shut up.
Just stop talking.
No more podcasts.
Right.
Yeah.
No more.
Please.
I'm shutting it down right now.
I'm pulling the plug.
Yeah.
All right.
Yeah.
See you.
Yeah.
We'll delete this.
Yeah.
No, man.
Like, yeah.
I mean, everybody's favorite band just went mainstream.
You know, like.
it sucks but and like maybe you feel like they sold out a little bit but like you got the t-shirt
you were there for the first album before they were cool though like i knew about i saw their
first shows that's great man because you can tell those old stories like about the you know i heard
them in a bar and nobody they were and i like you know smoke weed with the lead singer and they all
like i said that's great those are great stories to have but yeah it's just inevitable if they're
as talented as you thought they were back then it was just a matter of time for they get signed
to a big label and i know it's more than that too and i know there's real risk and and people are
who know way more and are smarter than i am are like yeah man but like come on like you're not
at all concerned about xyz of course um but it was just bound to happen and so i think you know
uh i was talking to somebody the other day it was like we like bpi didn't like bring bitcoin
to washington dc you know like it's not like we like carried it up like they're like what
they're like yeah you guys want to hear about it you know a bitcoin brought itself to washington dc
we're just here to be like you know there's no uh there's no ceo right we sell all the time like
there's no ceo bitcoin well there's no ceo bitcoin which means there's no government affairs team
There's no marketing department.
There's no public affairs team.
There's no on down the list.
There's no nothing.
And so we have to build all of these things.
And so we're like, hey, well, you know, there could be there's plenty of other people that can meet with elected officials and talk about Bitcoin.
We're going to do that, too.
And we're going to build an institute and research it.
And we want to give them like we want to give like good, clean signal about Bitcoin to elected officials.
That's that's like appropriate.
That's timely to what they're talking about.
We want to connect it, not just like, here's Bitcoin.
Whenever you would like to read it, here are the halls filled with novels of white paper.
We want to connect it to what's happening right now in the real world.
And so why does it matter to me now?
That's what elected officials want to know.
How does this dovetail into the other things that are important to my constituents who also don't know anything about Bitcoin?
right like if you go be uh senator lummis about bitcoin hopefully you got a bunch of people back
home that care about bitcoin or they're gonna be like she's up there talking about bitcoin we don't
have any jobs you know they're gonna vote you out you know like talking about this damn bitcoin again
you know we got a mosquito problem and so you know whatever it is uh you kind of connect it to
the other things that people care about uh just like normal people so that's the that's the other
out of it. I know. I totally agree. And I'm curious too, are there any, uh, like without
revealing any sensitive information about who've you've had these conversations with, were there
any like really kind of standout conversations that you had either with elected officials or
just, you know, staffers, spouses, whatever that really jumped out at you where it was like,
oh, this was like, I like, it's amazing how this happened. Like where it went better than you could
have imagined maybe sure yeah a few times um one that has just stuck with me i think it was because
it was you know it was kind of early days and uh i i got invited to this like fancy you know dinner
thing and somebody's like a mansion you know in tennessee or uh kentucky actually i can't remember
it was uh trying to give too much away man yeah it's okay it's okay somewhere
story uh but yeah somewhere in the country no i i went to this uh event and there were a bunch of
elected officials there and um i'm meeting with different people and you know just kind of making
the rounds and i don't really know a lot of people uh just because i'm kind of new to the industry and
And so I'm sitting and I'm chatting with a lady and we're having a conversation.
Somebody introduced me and I find out her husband is an elected official.
And so we're having this great conversation and she's asking me what I do.
We're kind of in this little group.
And so her and I are kind of side boring.
I'm like, I'm with the Bitcoin Policy Institute.
She's like, well, you got to tell me all about that because I've got my kids and they're grandkids or whatever.
And they're all into buying the stuff on their phones.
And like, I just don't, you know, whatever, understand all that.
And so we're like just chatting, like, you know, it was just so,
it was just cool.
And, and she was trying to understand that she just wasn't clicking.
And I had just come back from an event where like Roya and,
and Anna and a bunch of the HRF crew were talking about, you know,
some of their experiences.
And for every reason I was like, okay,
You are an upper middle class woman like yourself in Afghanistan.
The U.S., like it, love it, hate it, whatever, bails on the country after kind of turning into a what civilized country for a decade.
You just disappear.
And we let some like crazy group take over overnight.
So you are you, but you're in Afghanistan.
You're an Afghani woman.
and suddenly the banks are taking over the currency is different all hell's breaking loose
and you're everything you've ever owned and built over the last 10 15 years just evaporates
overnight so it was like yeah i just started talking about gans i'm like so anyways uh
imagine that like that would suck really bad you know and i said you could try to leave the country
they're gonna seize your currency they're going to you could what are you going to carry gold in
the bag. Like you're, you're, you're screwed. I said for the Bitcoin for the first time in world
history, man, you can memorize 12 words. You get out of the country going around the world and you
can take your life savings with you and start over. And that's the power it gives to women like
you. That's the power it gives to people like you. They can, you can make decisions and nobody can
take that from you. And this is the first time you can do it. It's the first time you can walk
through freaking airport security and no one knows that you're taking your freedom with you.
You're taking your, you're taking everything that is yours. And, uh, it's, it's a liberty for people
who, um, everything around them is designed to deny them liberty. And, you know, she acted like
she was like blown away at least. And I was like, okay, who knows? And later that night, I, um, I ran
into staff for this elected official and i'll chat with them they're like what did you say to
his wife and i was like i don't know what do you mean like that piss somebody off you know i was
kind of like they're like she made sort of like six books on bitcoin and all this random stuff
and like i guess we got to read all these books now and i made a huge impression and so that was
like i'm taking other people's stories and then i'm you know with it wasn't even with the elected
official and with his spouse, which honestly, I think is sometimes more powerful. And it's like,
okay, I'm talking, we're, I mean, you know, these are getting all involved in it now.
And now the staff's like, what are we talking about? Like, why are we reading these books?
I have to explain it to them. And so that's the work. That's what we do at a, at like a boil it
all down. We take stories that aren't ours. We take research that we, you know, we have these
fellows that build. We take all these resources and we try to just quote them in a way, you know,
at the right time to the right people to help get their attention and be like, you know what? Okay.
This actually, this Bitcoin thing actually is something. This is really important, isn't it?
Hmm. Oh, somebody's, you know, screwing with it. Somebody's trying to cut you guys' legs out.
That's not, we're not letting that happen. And that's it. That's the gig. And right now, I mean,
And no, we've been pretty effective at it.
I mean, we have a lot of things that have gone in our favor.
Political wins.
Bitcoin's in a national conversation.
You know, it's just like, nope.
Nobody will listen to us.
You know, we're shouting into the void.
And then, boom, everybody's talking about Bitcoin.
Presidents, presidential candidates are talking about Bitcoin.
And so we saw this enormous, enormous appetite for our work.
Because everybody's like caught with their pants down.
Like, I don't know shit about Bitcoin.
Like what? The president's talking about it. We don't know anything about it. Who do we talk to? And that's what we built BPI for was that exact moment in time. Like, we need to know about this last week. We knew about this yesterday. We were way off sides on this issue. We have no idea what we're doing. Who do we talk to and how do we figure this out?
and we're hoping when that happens
that people have BPI and speed dial
and that's what's happened.
And so I'm really proud of that.
Like we prepared for this moment.
We didn't think it was going to happen like now,
you know, like maybe years and years from now.
So we're like, oh, it's happening, you know?
And so we're just really fortunate.
Like, you know, at the resources, the time,
at the right place, it was kind of like, you know, luck.
But like prepare for the moment
and then it happens and you're there.
It's cool.
It's been fun.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity, right?
I mean, I guess this is just trying to say like 40 words.
But like the suddenly part came at you guys kind of suddenly, I guess.
I mean, because it really did.
It's still there.
Yeah.
No, it is wild.
I'm curious too.
Do you guys, I know obviously, you know, you're working with, you know, congressional people,
senate people uh folks in the white house like a lot with you know stuff in dc but do you guys do
work or provide this kind of guidance at the state level as well is that any of your focus
or is your focus more on uh dc specifically like more on the federal level case by case uh we we
will when we can uh it's really been more of a bandwidth issue and their states are like you know
states are all like their own countries you know like they're all different the political landscapes
that's where i focused mainly uh when we were talking about my career earlier there i think
it's really cool like they're like micro countries they all have their own like fancy you know state
capital building all the rules are different there's similarities you know but like um you
they're all it's all a different game you know and you gotta you gotta know you can't just show
up in some state and be like, I'm here to be the whatever. And they're going to be like,
you're going to get cooked, dude. Like you're just going to get like charbroiled. They're
going to take your money, man. They're going to, you know, it's like, it's, it's so funny.
And so to commit to doing state level work, it's a, it's, you don't do that lightly. And you don't,
you don't, it's a, it's almost like a completely different animal. Now that we have done a few
things we have and we're going to be continuing to work on like model state legislation. I don't
know if you're familiar with that term, but can you can you explain that? Yeah. So there's
organizations like ALEC and things like this. I think I'll tell you about ALEC. It's just a prime
example of this, the American Legislative Exchange Council. And so I told you about all the different
states are all like their own little land like different different countries is a way of thinking
about it elected officials alex on the republican side they get all the different states together
all the elected officials and they all go to this big conference and they all figure out like
you know um like i told you earlier like we're not experts on all this stuff like okay but then
they all get together and they meet and they're like all right we all want to like you know
So whatever, be a right to work state or whatever, right?
We all want to cut taxes.
And they're like, okay, our powers combined, we can come up with like the perfect way to
do this and like the language and all this sort of thing.
And here's our strategy for it as like a group of states.
And so you kind of get together and plan as allies.
And it works because you're getting way more expertise, like legal guidance, like versus like if you and I were the, you know, Iowa representative, we're sitting around drinking bourbon like, what do you think, Walker?
Let's cut taxes.
My buddy's an attorney.
Let's have him draw up the language.
You know, like it might pass.
But it sounds like a good time, though.
I'm just saying.
Cutting taxes and drinking bourbon.
That is my kind of planning session.
Sounds like a country song.
Yeah. So, yeah, man, I'm gonna have a I write one right after this about cutting taxes and drinking bourbon. Sorry, continue. We'll perform it on the next rip. So, yeah, man, I, we were like, we're looking at all the SBR bills and some of the ones that are that are aren't out yet and some of the states that don't have it yet. And so we we're working on model straight state legislation for some of those issues. So we're like, hey, all states who want to do a strategic Bitcoin reserve.
Here's the way the Bitcoin Policy Institute thinks you should do it.
And you don't have to do it exactly this way.
But like we, you know, we've tried to think through this soup to nuts and make sure that
like this doesn't accidentally get interpreted this way or that two years from now, this
doesn't happen.
And what about this legal, you know, backdoor thing?
And so we try to help put together a bombproof version of it.
Not that some of the other ones out there aren't.
There's just a lot of states that haven't done this yet.
And there's a lot of different opinions about how it should be done.
And so we're throwing our hat in the ring on some of those issues and saying like, hey, here's what we kind of think.
It'll probably be similar to some of the things you've seen before.
It may be different to some of them, a lot different than some of them.
And so, yeah, that's it.
That's the state side.
We do have a – if people want to go to our website, like there is a cool thing we put out that is – it's our policy framework.
So basically, here's a comprehensive policy framework for US leadership on Bitcoin.
And we haven't done anything quite like this.
Zach Shapiro, who is just one, an awesome guy, a great person, and also like unbelievably talented and gifted individual, put this together.
And he's the executive director of Peer to Peer Rights Fund, which is a BPI project as well.
That's one of our big ones, man.
And like peer-to-peer rights is heart and soul of Bitcoin, the Bitcoin network and Bitcoiners.
And so that's always going to be a priority for us is like we got to keep our eye on that.
We got to fix some things.
We got some people that are in prison probably ought not to be, man, and need to get out of there.
And so we got a lot of work there to do.
But the Bitcoiners have been massively supportive of that.
So anyway, this policy manifesto is on our homepage.
It's like 30 pages.
And we go through like, what's Bitcoin?
Why is it important?
Here's our mission.
Here's a holistic view of our three policy domains.
So like economics and geopolitics, technology and innovation, mining and energy, and like
what we're thinking and why it's important to invest policy and dollar dominance.
We go through the entire kitten caboodle in there.
So if you want to really roll up your sleeves and learn, like go to that, go to our website,
btcpolicy.org.
And it's like one of the first links is the Bitcoin Policy Institute Comprehensive Policy
Framework.
I'll link this in the show notes too.
Okay.
Yeah.
And if you go down, I don't know if you can scroll down just a hair.
It says view PDF on the left side.
And that's where you get the whole doc.
Boom.
I love that cover page too.
That's nice.
I have not actually read this.
I'm going to have to dig through this.
It just came out right before Vegas.
People have been a little busy.
Most people still haven't recovered enough to be able to read a white paper yet.
Yeah, my brain cell count is still a bit down, I think.
Right.
Yeah, unfortunately.
Worth it though.
Worth it.
It was worth it.
It was a great week.
Yeah, what about you, man?
Anything else?
Any other questions?
Anything we need to talk about?
How much time do we have?
I have no idea.
We are actually, I mean, honestly, we're pretty perfectly on time.
We're coming right up on 90 minutes.
So time was flying here.
Well, I mean, so I want to encourage people again, if you want to come to DC, you can sign up for the Bitcoin Policy Summit.
Again, if you go to btcpolicy.org, you can click the links through or go to btcpolicysummit.org.
You can use the promo code Walker for 21% off.
Again, I get no kickbacks or anything from that.
This is just a way for you guys to get a discounted ticket, which is great.
So if you want to hang out there, Orange Pill the Swamp, we will be there.
Should be a lot of fun.
I don't know.
Was there anything we didn't cover?
We covered a lot today.
We got a lot in.
We didn't get a chance to talk about home mining and gardening.
So I think we're going to maybe have to do a whole separate rip on that.
Yeah, man.
I just write random thoughts down in my phone.
And so you're like, hey, what's top of mind?
I was like, home mining and gardening is something I thought about the other month.
I was thinking about this literally maybe last week because I was like,
I want to build out a greenhouse that I can still operate in the winter as a standalone building.
but like, I want to heat it with, with Bitcoin miners, like, because then, you know, like that,
that I'm not wasting, you know, if you're not mining Bitcoin, you're wasting energy.
So I don't want to be an energy waster. Uh, I, you know, like the, like the United Kingdom or
any of those other countries that aren't, uh, aren't using their excess power to mine, uh,
mine Bitcoin. But yeah, so I w I was thinking about this as well. I'm going to, I'm going to
have to play around with some stuff. I've got an old S nine sitting in my garage, uh, that, uh,
we used for a skit once, uh, Carla and I, but I didn't actually mind with it. Uh, but I do have
my bid acts that I just got in the mail. So I'm excited about that. Yeah, that's cool, man. I I've
been eyeing the bid acts, the bid axes, the bid axes, uh, and, uh, and yeah, the, the bit about
the gardening is like, you know, if you've done a garden, which I I'm sure you have, you know,
The ROI is not like if you want tomatoes, there are cheaper ways of getting tomatoes.
But like the experience, the learning and the freedom element of gardening, like I grew my own damn food and I can do that.
And I know how to do that. And I'm demonstrating to my children that that is a possibility, not only a possibility, but a preferred way of doing it.
and this is where your food comes from it takes a lot of work somebody had to grow a seed and
somebody had to make the seed go and then you know and you see a little seed come this i think
it's similar uh this is just the quick you know answer yeah it's similar to home mining like you
like why would you home mine like it's so you're paying more for the bitcoin you know it's like
well yeah i'm paying more for the tomatoes too but that's not the damn point man like it's about
freedom and about like exercising my liberty and my autonomy as a human and i don't know why but
those two the rationale and the challenges and people are like sure are spent a lot of time on
that stupid garden when you could go to the grocery store it's like dude you just don't get it it's the
same thing with home mining and so uh it was a whole uh a whole bit i was working on but i love
that's it no i i love that and now we are gonna have to do another rip and get into that because
I think there's a, that dovetails well with like planting fruit trees. Like I always, like I love
fruit trees. I've always loved apple trees, especially cause I love me some apples. And like,
it's one of those things where an apple tree typically takes about four years to bear fruit.
Like it takes an epoch basically, but you know, it takes a Bitcoin cycle to bear fruit. And so
it's just a, it's a, it's a great lesson in low time preference behavior. It's like,
you're not going to see the benefits right away. You're not going to see the benefits in the
next year or two years. It's going to take you multiple years, four years to start to see the
benefits. And like, that's the same with holding Bitcoin. It's like, you're not going to, yeah,
you may see, it may go up, may go down in the near term, but like you need to wait about a cycle
to really start saying, oh, wow. Okay. Now I see why I did this because I have, there's a lot of
fruit on my tree. A lot of Bitcoins that have been growing. The apple tree won't give you nearly
as much anxiety as buying a bitcoin and holding for four years that's true unless you get a lot of
deer unless you get a lot of deer on your property because they love nipping those little apple
trees they really do yeah yeah maybe maybe maybe the apple tree is is uh is because there's more
anxiety than i'll still give it to bitcoin volatile just plant a few apple trees yes see what happens
there. Good luck dealing with the deer. Man, this was a great rip. I'll link you, your socials in
the show notes, bdcpolicy.org, bdcpolicysummit.org for folks that want to check that out. Anywhere
else you want to send people, I'll link that report as well. But anything else that you want
me to drop in the show notes or send people to? No, that's it. That's it. If anybody has questions,
I'm on the website and happy to, you know, chat with anybody at any time about our work.
And, you know, I know there's a special in Austria.
There's a lot of people that want to know more and engage with our ideas or come to our event or whatever.
So we are, you know, we're ready and willing to chat.
Appreciate you having me on, man.
This was fun.
Good way to spend an afternoon and, you know, appreciate all you're doing, dude.
Thanks for coming out to DC.
I'm excited for you to be a part of it.
Yeah, I'm excited too.
And maybe we get a little bit of bourbon, draft up some tax cuts or something while we're there.
I don't know.
We'll just see what happens.
No taxes on Bitcoin.
They're like, oh, yeah, that's what we'll do.
We'll cut all taxes on Bitcoin.
Please.
That's my number one policy priority is no cap gains tax on Bitcoin.
That'd be a banger.
we'll work on it man the more bourbon the higher the tax cut i know you guys will
wait thanks man it was that was great chatting yeah likewise thanks walker
and that's a wrap on this bitcoin talk episode of the bitcoin podcast remember to subscribe to
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