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The first level analysis is like, how does our current regulatory environment address this new digital currency slash digital store of value?

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But going like one step deeper, like, well, how is this new form of property rights?

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Which to me is like an attorney also is like it's an immutable form of property rights.

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Like there is nothing stronger than Bitcoin when it comes to preserving.

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Like that's that's just it. It's the end all be all right now of property rights.

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You don't need a court to enforce it necessarily.

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So what does that do, right, to society?

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Like how does the law change around something like that?

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So as Bitcoiners, we want to kind of say, well, here they're in money in state.

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We're here to, you know, fight the system, right?

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Which is true.

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Like that's all important.

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But insurance sometimes gets lumped in with the existing system just because the fiat system is degrading the insurance industry.

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Like it's degrading everything else, right?

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FDIC is the analogy for BDIC, but BDIC is totally private. It's totally free and open to anybody to

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join it, just like Bitcoin, right? It's not mandated by the government, right? The amount

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of capital that's sitting in Bitcoin in these Bitcoin treasury companies is so massive right

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now. They're going to want to find ways to create Bitcoin yield on that. I just love that story

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because I think in my mind, like Bitcoin can be this like stimulant, like coffee to commerce. And

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it is. We're seeing it, right? It's shortening trade lanes through digital space, right? All

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these treasury companies get the question, like, what are you going to do with the capital, right?

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Like, you're just going to sit there, run the arbitrage play that MicroStrategy is doing,

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right? He pointed to insurance. He said, we're actually looking at insurance. And if you go to

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the Caribbean markets, you can get Bitcoin-denominated insurance. And that presents

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interesting opportunities for yield. The challenger of Bitcoin treasury companies

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will probably move into this space.

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Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.

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My name is Walker and this is The Bitcoin Podcast.

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Bitcoin continues to create new blocks every 10 minutes.

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The value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.

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And if you're listening to this right now,

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remember, you are still early.

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If you're not already, go ahead and subscribe to this show

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for everything else.

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Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk.

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Well, Aaron, glad to have you on here.

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Excited to dig into a few different topics today.

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Thanks for coming on the show.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yeah, thanks for having me again.

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It's a pleasure to be here.

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Kind of like I was saying a little bit earlier off air, you know, I've been aware of what

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you and Carla have been up to for a long time since like the 2021 Bitcoin conference in

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Miami, which was a total scene, felt like a music festival compared to all the other

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ones that we've had since then.

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But yeah, to see the journey you guys have both been on, you know, and how you started

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this podcast, you know, what was like a year ago or something like that.

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almost through Noster is kind of where I saw it first taken off and experimenting there.

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And just really pushing that medium forward has been really cool to see.

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So pleasure to be here with you today.

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Yeah, no, I've been – I just really – I love Noster.

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And I do still say Noster.

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I know a lot of folks say Noster.

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I'm going to keep bucking the trend.

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But it's such an incredible medium,

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and I think that it's one that's going to be viewed as increasingly important in the years to come.

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obviously it's right now being used primarily as a you know social media copycat yeah there's just

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so much that can be done on it and even just if it even if only it the only thing it did was

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censorship resistant social media that's right still be that would be enough you know that would

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be a win in and of itself but it can do so much more and so i'm i'm really excited to see what

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happens in the years to come but yeah let's let's start out just because i actually don't uh i don't

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really know your story can you just kind of give me a little bit of a background and kind of you

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know, who you are, how you got here today. You work in a number of different areas in and around

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Bitcoin. So just kind of, yeah, walk me, walk me through that. Yeah, sure. So Aaron Daniel,

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I have been a Bitcoiner since, yeah, about 2020, 2021. And, you know, my, my entire career has been

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as an appellate attorney, a licensed attorney. And so I discovered Bitcoin, you know, that time

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period when a lot of people did, you know, post pandemic or during pandemic, you know, looking at

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investing and came at it from that angle first as just an investor. I actually trying to think the

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first, I think I started learning about it on like SoFi, you know, that kind of like neobank platform.

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They had like these little explainers about all the different cryptocurrencies and like,

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I didn't know anything about any of it. So I read about Ethereum and I was like, oh, okay,

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like dApps and like, you know, kind of the infrastructure for technology or world computer

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or whatever. That sounds interesting. I'll do something there with Bitcoin. And then I read

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Lynn Alden had this like, I think it was like a seven point, like just epic takedown of Ethereum.

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Yeah. From like 2020 or something like that. And I found it and read it. And then immediately it was

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like, oh, I made a mistake. Like, and just sold all the Ethereum, went into Bitcoin. And so luckily

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came along at a time when, you know, I was not really swayed by the rest of the cryptoverse.

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I didn't have to make those hard decisions and learn those hard lessons that others made,

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primarily because of advocates like Len and others who had come before, right? So standing

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on the shoulders of those giants. But as an attorney, kind of always thinking through like,

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well what is this not only like okay the the first level analysis is like okay how does our

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current regulatory environment like address this new you know digital currency slash you know

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digital store of value but going like one step deeper like well how is this new form of property

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rights right which to me is like an attorney also is like it's an immutable form of property rights

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Like there is nothing stronger than Bitcoin when it comes to preserving.

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Like that's that's just it.

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Like it's the it's the end all be all right now of property rights.

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Like you don't need a court to enforce it necessarily.

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So what does that do right to to society?

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Like how does the law change around something like that?

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Some, you know, just novel species that has come in.

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Like how does how does the law adapt around that?

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Right.

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And how is it going to change in different ways?

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So I was writing about Bitcoin for a long, long time. Just from that perspective, I had a little blog. And then really, yeah, Noster came along. And I was reading and writing about Noster and how it's this combination now of you've got almost like property rights infused with freedom of speech, right?

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You have, you know, cryptographic keys that attest to every note that's going out.

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You know, you associate those keys with someone somehow, you know, that they're, you know,

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either someone who has possession of those keys, at least, is authoring these notes, right?

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And so I said, yeah, this is like we were saying at the top of the pod, like this is

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just really revolutionary, especially when it comes to like the other stuff, right?

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Like we've got notes, we've got social media, but the other stuff is where it can get so

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interesting.

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so fast. So what I was trying to figure out was how to bring all these technologies together to,

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to like fix kind of the justice system at first. Right. And, um, I had some designs through Nostre,

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like a bounty board there. Like if you remember early, like there was a lot of bounties on

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Nostre, like people wanted to see, well, the, the big famous one was Jack Dorsey, right. Put out,

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I forget how large of a bounty it was. Um, it's still out there. I think that can be claimed for

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a Nostra-based GitHub, basically.

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But then the problem came where it was like, okay, so you put up a bounty, somebody puts

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up a bounty, a developer goes out and fulfills the bounty, and then the poster of the bounty

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says, yeah, but you didn't do this other feature I didn't tell you about, or I don't think

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it actually meets my criteria.

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That actually happened with HRF, with a bounty they put out, and there was a little bit of

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like controversy around, you know, that and they ended up giving like half of the bounty to one

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developer and half to the other. I was like, okay, this is interesting. This is like an area where

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like you do kind of need some assurances, some kind of adjudication system maybe around this.

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And like, is there something we can do? So I had some designs around like a Nostr

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based bounty board that had kind of like dispute resolution built in. And then, you know,

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following various developers on Noster, kind of pinged them because there was a hackathon that

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was coming up at the end of 2023, the Bolt Fund hackathon, Legends of Lightning.

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And I had also been, so I was trying to recruit people to help me build this thing, right?

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And somebody pinged me, who's now my co-founder of InsurTech company, Resolver, that I've

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founded. And he pinged me because he heard me on Peter McCormick's podcast talking about this

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bounty board system and other legal issues. And so this is why you need more Bitcoin podcasts,

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so you can facilitate more and more company formations and capital formation. So never

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enough Bitcoin podcasts. So my co-founder pinged me, just cold DMed me and was like,

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hey, I'm chief product officer of a legal tech company. Let's do something together. I don't

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know what it is, but let's, let's build something together. Uh, so we did, we built, you know,

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a very early prototype of this, this bounty board marketplace dispute resolution system with, you

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know, obviously lightning payouts for bounties and stuff. Um, and got, you know, runners up in that,

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that hackathon and then got to the point where we said, well, we've got this amazing team,

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which is still with us at the company that is resolver. Now, what are we going to,

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what let's keep building. Right. And let's, let's see what we can do. Um, so that was my essentially

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long nutshell journey of, uh, you know, Bitcoin, uh, finding Bitcoin to like founding a Bitcoin

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company. Uh, and, and all the while, um, just, you know, every incremental step, it seems like

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there was either a podcast or something, right. That, um, you know, like Lynn Alden's pieces,

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you know, Noster, this new technology coming out that really helped kind of shape and guide my

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journey. I love that Nostra was such a kind of instrumental part in putting together this initial

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team, but then it's amazing that team is still with you guys. Okay. So talk to me about Resolver

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a little bit. What do you guys do? How is it different than what exists in the market today,

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if such a thing does exist? Yeah, absolutely. So Resolver, we're an insurance technology company,

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primarily um it's bitcoin native so what does that mean insurance technology so to position

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where we are within the ecosystem um you've got insurance companies right that's the ones you

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think about that issue your policies right and then you've got you know the brokers those are

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the ones who represent your policy holders and you know get you that your quotes and and work on

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getting the the quotes down or coverage is larger right um you also have reinsurers who are the

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insurance companies for the insurance companies, right? And that's a whole different huge sector

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of the insurance industry that is very broken and Resolver is actually building tools to fix

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right now. So we're none of these, right? We are the insurance technology providers, right? So

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you've got fintechs for finance, ag tech for agriculture, right? And where insurance has its

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own, you know, SaaS system. So we're filling that niche. And, you know, the best example I can give

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is our first product that's coming to market is called BDIC. It's the FDIC for Bitcoin. And it is a

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marketplace of many different insurance providers that's embedded with custodians and wallet

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providers. So the example is you go onto your, you know, let's call it your collaborative custodian,

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right? That is holding one of the keys and you've got two keys of your multi-sig setup.

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Our embedded software will be right there when you go in and look at your Bitcoin and allow you

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to go and find a policy, right? You just click through just like buying a travel insurance policy

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on airfare when you check out, right? And the key differentiator for us here, besides being,

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you know, not an insurance company, we're distributing, helping them distribute their

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policies directly to the policyholders. You know, we're creating that marketplace, right, with BDIC.

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BDIC is Bitcoin Denominated Insurance Collaborative. So we are prioritizing

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insurance policies that are denominated in sats.

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okay so that that's fascinating to me help me understand too because i've had becca from uh

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from anchor watch on the show yeah how how is that what you guys are doing kind of similar but

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like how is that different you guys are at a different layer than anchor watches is that

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fair to say hello friends you may notice that there are no sponsors for this episode and that

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is because this is a pure value for value episode so if you find this episode valuable consider

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giving value back. You can do that by becoming a paid subscriber on Fountain. You can send me a

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zap on Noster, a boost on Fountain. Or if you don't feel like doing any of those, one thing you can do

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00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:47,840
that is totally free is just to share this show with your friends, family, and strangers on the

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internet so that it reaches more people. If you are listening on a podcasting app like Apple Podcast,

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you can also give this a five-star rating so more people find the show. You can subscribe on YouTube,

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Rumble or wherever else you're watching. But again, I always recommend that Bitcoiners check

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out Fountain. You can also go check out the big print audiobook, which I narrated. You also,

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of course, do not have to do any of those things. Bitcoin does not care, but I sure do appreciate

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all of your support. So thank you. Yeah. So go back to the, you know, the ecosystem of different

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providers. So Anchor Watch, who, by the way, OGs in Bitcoin insurance, like, we're thinking about

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this back in the clubhouse days, right, when nobody else was talking about insurance in Bitcoin.

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And, you know, it was still still very nascent, right? And then they went, and then they went to

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London, and they went to Lloyd's of London, and they got a syndicate there to back them, right?

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So what they do is they're an MGA, Managing General Agent. They are issuing policies on, you know, right now it's their specific stack of, you know, collaborative custody tech, Trident Vault. But they're not the capacity, like they don't hold the backing for those policies, right?

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So they have to work with their syndicates to issue those policies.

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And, you know, it's directly with users, right?

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And specifically on their piece of technology for right now.

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Again, we're not issuing policies.

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We are working with the anchor watches, you know, like that type of MGA could come on

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to BDIC and offer policies through BDIC if they were going to ensure different custody

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providers, different wallets, different platforms, right?

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So that's like the main difference is we're not trying to be insurance company. We're not trying to be regulated like an insurance company. We just want to help bridge the insurance world, right? The small nascent Bitcoin insurance world, but also the larger traditional world to the Bitcoin economy.

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Because, you know, we're talking about basically insurance on your Bitcoin where you're holding it right in case of loss just generally.

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But, you know, there's a lot of other risks in the Bitcoin economy.

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You think of mining and like any kind of interruption in a mining facility.

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How do you insure against that without doing it denominated in Bitcoin?

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Right. It's hard to model out if you have a hurricane that goes through like Helene and knocks out a bunch of centers.

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for like a few months, right?

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They've lost not just revenue, but blocks, right?

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And like, how do you get those blocks back

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and those block rewards back?

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You need something that's denominated Bitcoin to do that.

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So there's a lot of different tools that we think

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and use cases for Bitcoin denominated insurance

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beyond just that initial use case.

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But that's kind of where we are versus, you know,

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or vis-a-vis the other players in the insurance ecosystem.

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Sure. I'm curious too.

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I mean, what are their – like why do the Bitcoin-denominated insurance – like is there a unique benefit about that when we're talking about this?

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Because I know if I'm remembering correctly from like my conversation with Becca, they have like kind of a slightly different approach to it.

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Or it's something that's in their pipeline, but that's not actually like their primary use case at this moment.

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So how do you guys think about that?

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What's the rationale basically?

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Yeah, the main the primary main benefit you get, especially as an insurance company who is providing the capital is you're matching the risk to the liability, right? The risk of lost Bitcoin. You've got to pay out a Bitcoin amount and you're backing it with fiat, right? That's scary.

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That why it that why they basically don exist right And I know Becca and Rob have been advocating for a change in like in the States around the treatment of Bitcoin as an insurance reserve as part of your regulatory capital as an insurance company That will help to unlock Bitcoin

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policies at scale. So that's one, that's, I mean, really the main benefit as an insurance company,

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as a user, right, of or a buyer of the policy, when you buy the policy, like you do you want

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you're buying it to protect Bitcoin, not necessarily the value of Bitcoin at the time you buy the

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policy, right? Because if you're insuring Bitcoin, you probably think it's going to go a lot higher,

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right over time, and you're doing it for the long haul. So you want to be sure that you can get coins

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back when those coins are lost, right? That's, I mean, just fundamentally a massive win for

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everybody. The problem comes in when, you know, if you are a policyholder, and it's like you've

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got this dilemma, you're like, well, I want a Bitcoin-denominated policy. Let's just, you know,

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let's say they're ubiquitous, right? Which they're not. So that's something we're solving for. We can

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get into that. But let's just say they're ubiquitous. You've got this dilemma. I want to get

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you know my policy denominated in bitcoin so i can get bitcoin claims if i lose them

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the premiums thus will be also in bitcoin but i don't want to pay necessarily to let my bitcoin

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away right and dilute my stack um why can't i just pay dollars on it but still get bitcoin in

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return right that's like the dilemma that is faced right now well we built a platform called

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the resolver premium manager and it actually solves this problem so our platform is a real-time

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insurance payment processing platform and crucially it splits everybody's commission like if you're a

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broker or your premium amount if you're the carrier out of a single policy payment but splits it out

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and pays it in different currencies so and you can pay in different currencies too right even

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though you have a denominator in Bitcoin, our platform, when you go to pay, you can pay with

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dollars if you'd like, and, and have that transmitted over the Bitcoin blockchain, or

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lightning network, and pegged out to the various parties in any currency. And, you know, we partner

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with different lightning service providers to do this in different jurisdictions, you know, on and

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off ramps to make sure everyone gets, you know, about the equivalent, and it's real time. So

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there's not too much slippage in terms of the conversion costs there, right? And you always

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have the contract, right? Currency, which is Bitcoin, that is the reference currency. So

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if you deviate from that, you take on a little bit of risk, but the risk is, you know, if you're

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using Lightning Network, it's minutes, right? At the most of slippage. So we've got a system in

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place now where if you are a user, you can basically arbitrage that difference there with,

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paying in dollars every month if you want for a Bitcoin-denominated policy.

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There's some trade-offs there to that too, because I know this is something that you get

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as a policyholder in a USD or a fiat-denominated policy is that certainty of the USD amount every

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month, right? So if you have a USD limit policy, you're paying, it's always going to be the same

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every month, right? But if it is Bitcoin denominated, obviously, Bitcoin's volatile

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in the short term. So what it's going to do is you'll have, you know, a discrepancy, you know,

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sometimes maybe 20% every month, or more, right, of what you're paying. So if you are a individual

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or a company that has all of your liabilities and dollars, that could be a little bit difficult.

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to Square as well. But at the end of the day, this is why we're building a marketplace so that we can

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offer all of these different options to Bitcoiners, right? Because we just fundamentally believe,

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I think most Bitcoiners do in freedom of choice, freedom of contract, right? Give everybody the

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tools that they want to contract for and let the marketplace decide. And then we'll see what the,

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you know, best is for the most, but, you know, it's not going to be one size fits all.

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Are you guys fully live right now?

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What's the timeline for all this?

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Because obviously there's a lot of moving parts in terms of like you need their – you have to build the tech for people to use the tech.

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But you need also like all of these people that are going to be actually issuing these policies as well.

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Oh, 100%.

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This is where the fact that it's a collaborative means – it's not quite like herding cats because Bitcoiners were all pretty aligned.

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And most of the parties we're working with here are all Bitcoiners to start.

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But we're aiming over the next few months, sometime in the new year, maybe faster if we get our ducks in a row.

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we'll have a couple of different partners, hardware wallet, software wallets, multi-sig

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and single-sig, self-custody, some form of collaborative custody coverage as well.

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That's what we're aiming to have in the next few months. And again, Bitcoin denominated,

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we're prioritizing having those covered. And there'll also be some fiat options too,

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fiat denominator coverage. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And some of that has to do with regulatory and

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jurisdiction because we are trying to, you know, America's where, you know,

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we'll probably be America, Europe first to start. But it, we could be, we could be global

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pretty quickly depending on the regulatory, you know, always caveat the regulatory

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navigations there. So it is something we're, we're actively building with our partners.

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Some of the partners we can be a little bit more explicit about than others.

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One I'll tell you is because they're super transparent and open source anyways is Wizard Sardine and Liana Wallet.

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So they have a multi-sig, miniscript-powered system, and we're working with them to onboard them into BDIC and get coverage for users there from the retail level up to the enterprise level too.

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So we're not just targeting retail, although we will offer retail, and that's going to be a huge component of it, but enterprise as well.

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Where do you guys see the biggest potential for this in terms of the retail usage?

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Is it in people who have these collaborative multi-sigs?

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Is it protecting people on exchanges?

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Is there an area that you guys think is going to be the most fruitful potentially?

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Yeah.

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I can say we're starting, you know, we're starting kind of in this collaborative custody area. And also, you know, self custody as well as is where we we see starting exchanges. Yeah, I mean, from an exchanges perspective, you know, you have to find an exchange that understands the value that it's going to bring to its customers.

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right um and there is value there to the platforms like the platforms are businesses too they have to

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make decisions you know and if they're bitcoin companies they have a bitcoin hurdle rate to beat

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right with any new feature or product that they're bringing to market so this is where you know by

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being part of by being an affiliate partner platform with bdic they earn a share of the

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premiums right from all the policies that are sold on their platform so you're giving your customers

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peace of mind, you're making their Bitcoin more secure on the flip side, right? Because you have

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to get underwritten and pass, you know, stringent security requirements before the underwriters that

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will actually issue policies on your platform, right? But then there's also a monetary incentive

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there, right? There has to be, you have to align everybody's incentives in a system like this.

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So I think, you know, finding good exchange partners like that, that have that mindset,

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is crucial. But long term, like where I see this in five years, like bank, this is banks are going

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to offer insurance, right on on Bitcoin, banks are going to start cussing insurance, or Bitcoin,

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right? The US regulators have all come out over the last few months, with guidance, saying, yes,

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banks can provided you, you know, follow your standard prudential, you know, frameworks,

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you can custody for your clients and you can purchase or you know outsource with server

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providers that custody well if you're a bank now and you have you know i have my fdic covered

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dollars right and my checking account for my customers i have sipc coverage which is the

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organization that covers for like brokerage accounts right securities then you got to do

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something for Bitcoin, right? It's just, and banks are going to have the size to just offer it like

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the FDIC, like a default level of coverage. And so that's where, I mean, it's, we're going to get

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there. And it'll, if you're doing it at scale, you do it Bitcoin denominated to match, you know,

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the assets and liabilities there. So yeah, that is, I think, you know, I know, you know, Latin

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American banks are really starting to push and explore this area.

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You know, the big banks in America, too, are as well.

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So this is where we want to be working to solve this problem, and not just for them,

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but for the existing Bitcoin on-ramps and brokerages that have been out there serving their customers

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and finding the good fight to get everybody onboarded to Bitcoin, right?

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Yeah, it's going to be really interesting to see how the banks kind of jump into this arena.

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Obviously, now that they are legally able to do so.

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But at the same time, I think their customers are maybe going to be not as much the people who are already Bitcoiners, but the ones who are going to become Bitcoiners.

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I feel that's just my perception.

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I don't know what you think.

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It seems like, for one, I'm not letting Jamie Dimon anywhere near my stats.

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That's right.

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It's just not going to happen.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. Certainly not. But like if you're, you know, if you're new to Bitcoin, you know,

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JP Morgan is a name that you trust. Like, okay, yeah, that's what you're used to, right?

330
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It's your, you're already accustomed to this. I don't know if you have that same kind of vibe.

331
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Yeah, this is what I consider like, you know, my stepdad, you know, he's the archetype for this.

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It's like, he's got, you know, he understands property, you know, he's invested in property.

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He understands, you know, dollars. He's got FDIC coverage there. But, you know, when you start

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talking about Bitcoin, like he knows what I'm doing. He sees the value it's bringing to the

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world, right? He, he has that mindset, but he's just like, what am I going to, how am I going to

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do this? Like, how am I going to, you know, onboard? But if it, I have an insured solution,

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right. Um, right there with my, my bank account. Yeah. That's a huge boost, um, that to on ramping

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a lot of new customers that you can eventually get into like self custody, right. Um, over time,

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Maybe not a large selection of older population, but if you're already an insured account that's custodial with a bank, then if you see that there's a self-custodial or collaborative custodial solution that's a little bit more – you understand now.

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You have to kind of own Bitcoin before you start to really have the incentive to understand it, right?

341
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It's kind of this chicken or the egg type dynamic.

342
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Like you got to have skin in the game.

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Then you start to understand it.

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You understand the power that that immutable property right has.

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And you're like, well, okay, I want to access that power.

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I don't want to infuse counterparty risk into the first asset that humans ever made that doesn't have counterparty risk, right?

347
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So how am I going to do that?

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Well, now I see there's some hardware solutions that are insurable.

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There's collaborative custody accounts.

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That shift becomes a little bit easier.

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You've got a safety net to make that shift. It's a lot better. And if platforms can also start bundling insurance options from the BDIC within their existing concierge, white glove services, their support services, you teach people how to self-custody, you teach people the best practices of Bitcoin.

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It makes them better risks to insure, too, by the way, because now, you know, as an insurance company, this collaborative custody platform is really good at educating its users on security best practices.

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So if we can certify that they've done all the best practices, we'll give them a discount on their insurance.

354
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So there's those kind of pricing incentives that come into play when you start bringing insurance into an industry like Bitcoin, into a new technology.

355
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Right. Not only just the policy holders get better and the risk reduces, but the ecosystem as a whole just gets safer and safer.

356
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So as Bitcoiners, we want to kind of say, well, here they're in money in state or here to fight the system, right?

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Which is true.

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Like that's all important.

359
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But insurance sometimes gets lumped in with the existing system just because the fiat system is degrading the insurance industry like it's degrading everything else, right?

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And so insurance, it's a private contract between you and – it's highly regulated.

361
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by the various jurisdictions, but it is a private contract between you and a company

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that you've entered into of your own free will. And you've said, I'm going to create a safety net

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through this company. And this company seems to have a good track record. So it takes the place

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of, I mean, FDIC is the analogy for BDIC, but BDIC is totally private. It's totally free and open to

365
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anybody to join it, just like Bitcoin, right? It's not mandated by the government, right? And I think

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that's a crucial distinction and something that insurance as a whole has been great historically

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at creating safety. So you go to, as an example, like city fire events used to be just

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utterly catastrophic right before building codes you know great fire of chicago was massively

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destructive um you know fires in san francisco after hurricanes uh because there wasn't a standard

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set of best practices for building um and so the insurance industry slowly started to engage

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with building practices and like in england one of the first um one of the first examples of this

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was the insurance companies would put like a plaque on a building to certify like this is a

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solid building that we've underwritten and we think it's you know using best practices and they would

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even like have um their own fire brigades like the insurance companies would like actually go out and

375
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like put out the fires for their company their buildings that they've insured right which is

376
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kind of a funny you know very anarcho-capitalist thing to do right who's gonna put out the fires

377
00:34:33,222 --> 00:34:34,462
Well, the insurance companies, right?

378
00:34:34,902 --> 00:34:35,543
I mean, yeah.

379
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Who's going to build the roads?

380
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These things tend to fix themselves in the absence of government.

381
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Shockingly, people, you know, you don't need to give half of everything you've ever earned to the government to have nice things, it turns out.

382
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Who knew?

383
00:34:49,722 --> 00:34:50,023
Exactly.

384
00:34:50,422 --> 00:35:00,563
And insurance is a great example of that because over time, they helped develop the best practices for buildings, right?

385
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And so the incidences of these catastrophic fires just decreased drastically over time.

386
00:35:06,582 --> 00:35:09,663
And a lot of that was like pricing mechanisms too, right?

387
00:35:09,802 --> 00:35:14,883
It wasn't just like a flat rate that insurance companies would charge to all their policyholders regardless.

388
00:35:15,143 --> 00:35:19,982
No, like they would get very granular over time in what, you know, we're going to build with stone.

389
00:35:19,982 --> 00:35:29,782
You know, we're going to eliminate thatch roofs and things of that nature then created market signals, like you're saying, like market pricing to drive best practices, right?

390
00:35:29,782 --> 00:35:33,482
Another great example of that is like electricity, right?

391
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Everybody was like, oh, my God, this is hyper dangerous.

392
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Like, you know, by the way, they've got uncovered flames in their houses and they think that's more safe, right, than electricity.

393
00:35:45,582 --> 00:35:49,023
But just a lot of FUD on electricity when it came out.

394
00:35:49,023 --> 00:35:58,582
And then over time, the insurance industry started to engage with this risk because they saw the potential it had for humanity, right?

395
00:35:58,582 --> 00:36:02,482
To harness this really powerful tool, right?

396
00:36:02,563 --> 00:36:03,203
This technology.

397
00:36:03,962 --> 00:36:05,742
And they created Underwriters Lab.

398
00:36:05,843 --> 00:36:09,922
You ever pulled your smoke detector off the wall to change the battery?

399
00:36:10,082 --> 00:36:12,543
And it's Underwriter Lab, UL on the back.

400
00:36:12,643 --> 00:36:14,482
That's from the insurance industry, right?

401
00:36:14,502 --> 00:36:21,862
They created these mechanisms and these collaborative systems that help to understand risk and price

402
00:36:21,862 --> 00:36:26,302
it better and make things safer for new technologies.

403
00:36:26,302 --> 00:36:35,442
This is why as Bitcoiners, we need to put the red carpet out for insurers to come in and start engaging with our industry.

404
00:36:35,882 --> 00:36:52,043
Because if you do it on the front end and have market-based pricing and market-based research around what is safe and what isn't, then you take that to the regulators and you say, this is what works empirically, right?

405
00:36:52,462 --> 00:36:55,203
And this is what the building codes should be.

406
00:36:55,203 --> 00:37:04,382
So it wasn't the other way around. It wasn't that regulators came up with building codes with just suesponte out of their brains.

407
00:37:04,802 --> 00:37:10,442
No, they just were like, all right, well, what's working? Well, the insurance company seems to have figured it out.

408
00:37:10,523 --> 00:37:17,023
So let's engage with them and pass regulations that standardize what they've already done through a market.

409
00:37:17,882 --> 00:37:38,565
It funny because you brought up insurance kind of gets lumped in with general fiat shenanigans I think that so true because for me at least I guess an American when I hear insurance the first thing I think of is health insurance right oh just what an utter catastrophe and a racket that is and just like that that is not a free market at all right that I mean it

410
00:37:38,565 --> 00:37:44,465
it's just like we could we could spend hours going into just how corrupt and awful all of that is but

411
00:37:44,465 --> 00:37:48,265
that's what you think of right but it's like something isn't necessarily bad just because

412
00:37:48,265 --> 00:37:52,445
fiat has found a way to really screw it up because the incentives are so broken it's like

413
00:37:52,445 --> 00:38:00,625
And I think for me, at least I think for a lot of Bitcoiners, like the number one fear you have is like losing some screwing something up.

414
00:38:00,625 --> 00:38:05,725
Right. And losing your Bitcoin, you know, maybe through no no faults of your own or some faults or whatever.

415
00:38:06,425 --> 00:38:08,685
But like that's the main thing that people have.

416
00:38:08,945 --> 00:38:13,205
And like, yes, you can, you know, I mitigate that with like with multi-sig as a start.

417
00:38:13,205 --> 00:38:15,625
You still you still just worry. You still just worry.

418
00:38:15,625 --> 00:38:28,185
And so I get it because it's like having kind of a fail safe, essentially, where you say, look, even if you screw something up or somebody else screw something up or whatever, there's a way for you to be made whole.

419
00:38:28,565 --> 00:38:28,885
Exactly.

420
00:38:29,185 --> 00:38:30,325
And it's done in Bitcoin.

421
00:38:30,425 --> 00:38:31,445
So that makes a ton of sense to me.

422
00:38:31,545 --> 00:38:42,425
I wanted to push a little bit deeper, too, because we were mentioning this just before we got on air, but just about a little bit more of the kind of the actual history going back even a little bit farther about insurance.

423
00:38:42,465 --> 00:38:43,785
If you want to get into that a little bit.

424
00:38:43,785 --> 00:38:44,105
Yeah.

425
00:38:44,105 --> 00:39:06,925
Yeah, that's it. It is an interesting, I mean, at least to me, you know, people are like, oh, insurance, not interesting. But when it so there's, there's kind of two. I like to say that insurance was like birthed from through coffee, right? Which is so how that happened was, this is going to be a little bit roundabout, but I'll bring it back eventually.

426
00:39:06,925 --> 00:39:26,685
So in like the mid 1700s, maybe 1650 something, this guy, this scholar named Canopius brewed like supposedly the first cup of coffee in I think it was Cambridge or one of the universities in the UK.

427
00:39:27,505 --> 00:39:29,825
And now there's an insurance company called Canopius.

428
00:39:30,105 --> 00:39:30,245
Okay.

429
00:39:30,325 --> 00:39:32,185
So there's a connection here with coffee.

430
00:39:32,405 --> 00:39:33,385
I'm not just making this up.

431
00:39:33,385 --> 00:40:00,205
But Canopius was like a Dutch scholar. So he came from the continent over to England to study. And so he would have brought that coffee with him. England wasn't importing it at the time because the trade lines were, I mean, it was basically in Yemen was where coffee started. And that the only way you could get it was like overland, kind of like through Istanbul, and then, you know, through like Eastern Europe.

432
00:40:00,205 --> 00:40:07,145
so that's probably where he brought it with him um and then pretty shortly thereafter you know

433
00:40:07,145 --> 00:40:13,925
the following decades um coffee houses started to pop up um around england and kind of migrated

434
00:40:13,925 --> 00:40:20,545
into london and you know more and more of them began to pop up because technology was increasing

435
00:40:20,545 --> 00:40:27,085
the ability to you know like make longer shipping lanes right and more consistent um shipping

436
00:40:27,085 --> 00:40:33,305
voyages. So you have this like little cycle where now coffee was even being transplanted now from

437
00:40:33,305 --> 00:40:40,445
Yemen into like Suriname and, and, you know, areas of like Asia, right, and being cultivated there,

438
00:40:40,785 --> 00:40:45,505
where we think of as like typical, some typical coffee growing area, Sumatra, right,

439
00:40:46,345 --> 00:40:51,885
coffee, and then much easier for the English to start importing from there at once that happened.

440
00:40:51,885 --> 00:41:12,705
So, you know, better technology, better trade, brought coffee. Then the coffee houses became the collaborative spaces where commerce started to happen because coffee is a stimulant, right? So every, you know, instead of being on ale and, you know, dulling your senses, everybody was on coffee and they were, you know, basically doing deals all night long, right?

441
00:41:12,705 --> 00:41:15,485
Um, and these like commerce hubs.

442
00:41:15,585 --> 00:41:19,385
So there was one that was called, you know, Lloyd's coffee house.

443
00:41:19,405 --> 00:41:21,925
So that eventually became Lloyd's of London.

444
00:41:22,405 --> 00:41:24,965
Um, but there was another one, I think it was Edwards maybe.

445
00:41:24,965 --> 00:41:27,985
And that became the stock exchange, the London stock exchange.

446
00:41:27,985 --> 00:41:28,225
Right.

447
00:41:28,305 --> 00:41:35,005
So these two major coffee houses became, you know, the financial centers of London and

448
00:41:35,005 --> 00:41:41,245
it would just be, you know, in the insurance, you know, at Lloyd's, um, you'd have essentially

449
00:41:41,245 --> 00:41:48,165
ship owners who are going to have a voyage, but they wanted to spread the risk around because

450
00:41:48,165 --> 00:41:54,845
they pull all their capital into one ship, and then that ship gets lost at sea, they're toast.

451
00:41:55,505 --> 00:42:04,945
You're bankrupt. So they would underwrite, so meaning the insurers would slip a paper and would

452
00:42:04,945 --> 00:42:11,605
literally write their names underneath the slip that said who was insuring and backing the voyage.

453
00:42:11,845 --> 00:42:15,445
They would pass that around the coffeehouse and pitch.

454
00:42:15,985 --> 00:42:23,065
There would be like proto brokers who would take it around, agents and hawk this great voyage.

455
00:42:23,205 --> 00:42:25,945
And, oh, look at this ship, top of the line ship.

456
00:42:26,245 --> 00:42:32,465
Look at these masts from wherever, new world masts, like super strong, great rigging.

457
00:42:32,465 --> 00:42:37,165
um you know this captain's done three voyages already like this risk is you know is great you

458
00:42:37,165 --> 00:42:43,105
could just imagine this with like coffee stains on the on everything right like that's the and that

459
00:42:43,105 --> 00:42:49,445
created like this virtuous cycle again where you now you have this um diffusion of risk this risk

460
00:42:49,445 --> 00:42:55,565
transfer right in the marketplace that allowed more risk taking to happen right and better voyages and

461
00:42:55,565 --> 00:43:00,865
more progress, right? And more commerce. So I just love that story, because I think,

462
00:43:00,865 --> 00:43:06,725
you know, in my mind, like, Bitcoin can be this, like, stimulant, like coffee to commerce,

463
00:43:06,805 --> 00:43:13,525
and it is, we're seeing it, right? It's shortening trade lanes through digital space,

464
00:43:14,045 --> 00:43:19,625
right? And if the insurance industry, like we talked about insurance, it's good for Bitcoin to

465
00:43:19,625 --> 00:43:24,305
bring insurance. And if the insurance industry starts bringing and harnessing Bitcoin, you know,

466
00:43:24,305 --> 00:43:26,425
And it's like, that's twofold, right?

467
00:43:26,465 --> 00:43:29,425
It's one, the payment reels, right?

468
00:43:29,425 --> 00:43:33,785
Like it's a medial exchange and it's instant and it's real time, right?

469
00:43:33,845 --> 00:43:35,565
And it's borderless, permissionless.

470
00:43:36,885 --> 00:43:44,625
And if I, when I tell you that a reinsurance contract takes 180 days to settle, like money

471
00:43:44,625 --> 00:43:51,025
to the premium to get into the reinsurance bank account, reinsurance bank account, like

472
00:43:51,025 --> 00:43:52,505
that is a conservative estimate.

473
00:43:52,505 --> 00:44:05,945
Like it is, there's so much, you know, AR at the end of the year, it's like 68% of the Lloyds of London marketplace, like 68% of the premiums that are written that year are still not paid at the end of the year.

474
00:44:05,945 --> 00:44:07,605
Like it is so broken.

475
00:44:07,865 --> 00:44:15,725
And if you just put that on Bitcoin now and use Bitcoin as the rails to settle, like boom, your efficiencies as an industry have just, has just gone down.

476
00:44:15,725 --> 00:44:22,685
So that's one place where the insurance industry really needs to address their payments issues.

477
00:44:22,925 --> 00:44:26,805
And we built RPM, the premium manager, to offer that service, right?

478
00:44:26,845 --> 00:44:32,985
And to be an easy on-ramp to the Bitcoin network, you don't have to run nodes, you don't have to even really custody.

479
00:44:33,585 --> 00:44:38,525
We're swapping out Swift and correspondent banking with the Bitcoin network, basically.

480
00:44:39,065 --> 00:44:41,105
But then store value, right?

481
00:44:41,105 --> 00:44:50,965
And like you were saying earlier, the investments just not keeping pace with the level of risk and the price of risk increasing.

482
00:44:51,405 --> 00:44:57,205
Just put a little bit of Bitcoin in that regulatory capital and you've got a huge boost.

483
00:44:58,065 --> 00:45:00,885
And that's going to take a little bit of time.

484
00:45:01,805 --> 00:45:05,105
Insurance industry can start settling over the Bitcoin network now.

485
00:45:05,485 --> 00:45:09,645
There's a little bit of regulatory maneuvering you have to do.

486
00:45:09,645 --> 00:45:20,145
But ultimately, if an insurance company gets a bank deposit in their statutory trust account that they're required to have, that solves the regulatory problems.

487
00:45:20,645 --> 00:45:25,005
Whether it came over the Bitcoin network at one point doesn't really change things.

488
00:45:25,345 --> 00:45:31,845
It will take time to get Bitcoin as the asset in the regulatory capital.

489
00:45:33,325 --> 00:45:33,885
Okay.

490
00:45:33,985 --> 00:45:35,645
First of all, that is fascinating.

491
00:45:35,765 --> 00:45:38,165
I did not know that about the coffee house.

492
00:45:38,165 --> 00:45:42,785
I didn't know they actually, like the coffee houses actually became the institutions, which is kind of just like fascinating.

493
00:45:42,785 --> 00:45:48,525
Because we think tea, right, for England, but like coffee actually predated, you know, tea being ubiquitous in England.

494
00:45:49,445 --> 00:45:50,525
That is fascinating.

495
00:45:50,665 --> 00:45:56,945
Okay, I need to like go down this rabbit hole because I feel like this is like a whole other rabbit hole I just found out about.

496
00:45:57,465 --> 00:46:04,285
I'm curious, you know, you mentioned, okay, yes, the insurance industry and a bunch of other industries could start settling on Bitcoin right now.

497
00:46:04,285 --> 00:46:09,705
Like as Bitcoiners, we're, you know, within our kind of Bitcoin or bubble, which is expanding, no doubt, but is still its own bubble.

498
00:46:10,485 --> 00:46:13,685
We say to ourselves, well, of course they should do this right now.

499
00:46:13,745 --> 00:46:15,205
This just makes this makes sense.

500
00:46:15,225 --> 00:46:16,625
Like you should be doing this.

501
00:46:16,685 --> 00:46:17,985
You know, Bitcoin is the perfect tool for this.

502
00:46:18,005 --> 00:46:19,605
It's the perfect payment rails for this.

503
00:46:19,645 --> 00:46:23,665
It's, you know, it's perfected money and it's a, you know, it's a medium exchange and a store of value.

504
00:46:23,665 --> 00:46:24,805
And there's so many different things you can do.

505
00:46:26,265 --> 00:46:29,665
How, how long do you think that actually takes?

506
00:46:29,685 --> 00:46:33,845
I'm not going to hold you to like a specific year, but like, where do you think we're actually at in this?

507
00:46:33,845 --> 00:46:40,285
Have we kind of – because I think we're still firmly in like the innovators stage of the tech adoption curve.

508
00:46:40,425 --> 00:46:42,265
I don't even think we're to the early adopters yet.

509
00:46:42,385 --> 00:46:43,245
Are you there?

510
00:46:43,505 --> 00:46:44,805
Are you kind of with me on that?

511
00:46:44,885 --> 00:46:53,965
You know, actually, I think we – so it's – Resolver wouldn't exist when I started my Bitcoin journey.

512
00:46:53,965 --> 00:47:02,325
Like the infrastructure just wasn't mature enough and the market capitalization of Bitcoin wasn't deep.

513
00:47:02,325 --> 00:47:04,365
I don't know when it was.

514
00:47:04,425 --> 00:47:06,405
Now it's a $2.4 trillion market.

515
00:47:06,585 --> 00:47:08,005
The liquidity is deep.

516
00:47:08,125 --> 00:47:10,625
You can move large sums.

517
00:47:11,005 --> 00:47:19,425
Because when we're talking about large enterprise premium payments or reinsurance payments, we're talking half a million dollars at a clip.

518
00:47:21,425 --> 00:47:24,585
And Lightning sure couldn't do that in 2021.

519
00:47:25,385 --> 00:47:26,645
Now it actually can.

520
00:47:27,525 --> 00:47:31,605
Those channels have gotten pretty girthy there on the Lightning Network.

521
00:47:31,605 --> 00:47:34,085
So you can move a lot of funds.

522
00:47:34,505 --> 00:47:36,325
There's some big ones, for sure.

523
00:47:36,845 --> 00:47:53,305
So for sure, we're hitting the right time where the actual just technological advancement in Bitcoin and around Bitcoin is hitting, as well as the market development, is hitting a crucial inflection point.

524
00:47:53,305 --> 00:48:01,505
But you are seeing insurance, maybe early adopters starting to come.

525
00:48:01,825 --> 00:48:03,105
Maybe we're still in the innovator phase.

526
00:48:03,205 --> 00:48:06,365
We're right on the cusp there of that transition.

527
00:48:07,865 --> 00:48:09,225
And it's exciting to see.

528
00:48:09,345 --> 00:48:19,205
I think what's going to happen is you're going to have a few, I think, traditional insurance companies that start to get it and adopt it.

529
00:48:19,285 --> 00:48:21,145
And they probably won't be the ones at the top.

530
00:48:21,145 --> 00:48:44,165
Right. There'll be like the hungry challengers that come in first and they're looking for the edge. Right. So it's like, oh, well, I can get my, you know, if I'm a broker, I can use the Bitcoin network to settle the premiums and I can get my insurance companies, their premiums, you know, six months faster. Right. Like that's they're going to keep giving me business. Right. If I can do that, like they'll want that edge.

531
00:48:44,165 --> 00:48:50,525
Um, but it, it is, we're, we're, we're close there.

532
00:48:50,865 --> 00:48:57,625
What we're seeing out there is, is some early adopters are, you know, the payment side,

533
00:48:57,725 --> 00:48:58,685
they'll get there.

534
00:48:58,845 --> 00:49:06,625
It also, you know, the Bitcoin is a great, um, source of, you know, emerging risk.

535
00:49:06,725 --> 00:49:10,305
So insurance companies, while they are conservative, right?

536
00:49:10,305 --> 00:49:29,365
They want to find new risk that doesn't exist on the market that's not saturated yet, right? And they want to be the first movers, a lot of them do, into these emerging risks. And so Bitcoin offers that opportunity, right, to harness a new emerging risk and create new premium flows.

537
00:49:29,365 --> 00:49:34,045
So again, it'll be those kind of challenger parties from the traditional insurance sector.

538
00:49:34,625 --> 00:49:39,565
And then I think you're going to have homegrown Bitcoin native insurance companies like Anchor

539
00:49:39,565 --> 00:49:39,885
Watch.

540
00:49:40,345 --> 00:49:46,585
But beyond Anchor Watch, I think the amount of capital that's sitting in Bitcoin in these

541
00:49:46,585 --> 00:49:49,965
Bitcoin treasury companies is so massive right now.

542
00:49:51,245 --> 00:49:54,325
They're going to want to find ways to create Bitcoin yield on that.

543
00:49:54,325 --> 00:50:13,865
Um, and insurance, like if you go, I think it was in back in July, Sean Bill, who is a chief investment officer at Blockstream, also chief investment officer of BSTR, which is like the $5 billion Bitcoin treasury company that Adam back helped to, uh, fund.

544
00:50:13,985 --> 00:50:14,385
Right.

545
00:50:15,065 --> 00:50:21,885
He was on Bloomberg saying, you know, he, all these treasury companies get the question, like, what are you going to do with the capital?

546
00:50:22,125 --> 00:50:22,385
Right.

547
00:50:22,385 --> 00:50:26,305
Like you're just going to sit there, run the arbitrage play that MicroStrategy is doing, right?

548
00:50:27,025 --> 00:50:28,645
And he pointed to insurance.

549
00:50:28,745 --> 00:50:30,545
He said, we're actually looking at insurance.

550
00:50:30,965 --> 00:50:34,725
And if you go to the Caribbean markets, you can get Bitcoin-denominated insurance.

551
00:50:34,985 --> 00:50:37,845
And that presents interesting opportunities for yield, right?

552
00:50:38,205 --> 00:50:44,505
So the smart, you know, again, the challenger of Bitcoin treasury companies will probably move into this space.

553
00:50:44,705 --> 00:50:50,465
And just to give an example of where we could go if someone like BSTR did that.

554
00:50:50,465 --> 00:50:58,625
so i think in terms of the amount of regulatory capital that exists to back bitcoin nominee

555
00:50:58,625 --> 00:51:03,005
policies right now there's a handful of insurance companies that are licensed to do it that have

556
00:51:03,005 --> 00:51:11,045
raised funds to do it in bitcoin i'm going to conservatively say it's like 250 million worth

557
00:51:11,045 --> 00:51:18,205
that's exist to settle or to to back policies which you know i think that's like the master

558
00:51:18,205 --> 00:51:26,245
policy that coinbase has right um yeah but but you also get you also get a multiple on that so

559
00:51:26,245 --> 00:51:31,805
like insurance companies don't have to keep one to one they can go up to sometimes like 10 times

560
00:51:31,805 --> 00:51:37,445
they can write 10 times the amount of policy risk that is being backed by that amount

561
00:51:37,445 --> 00:51:42,765
probably not gonna the regulators probably aren't gonna allow a 10 10x on bitcoin but let's just

562
00:51:42,765 --> 00:51:49,585
call it that. So we're talking like, you know, 2000 Bitcoin out there, right? In the Bitcoin

563
00:51:49,585 --> 00:51:58,065
denominated world, backing policies, if BSTR put like 10% of their whatever it is, over 300,000

564
00:51:58,065 --> 00:52:05,645
Bitcoin into insurance, like they immediately dominate the market, right? It's so that's,

565
00:52:05,805 --> 00:52:10,445
that's the kind of interesting inflection point that we're getting towards and like floodgate

566
00:52:10,445 --> 00:52:16,845
that could open. And then you've got like Bitcoin companies that can actually are really incented,

567
00:52:16,845 --> 00:52:22,325
you know, in our mission aligned with Bitcoin to do insurance, the Bitcoin way and put it on

568
00:52:22,325 --> 00:52:28,045
their balance sheet and back policies. And, and then even what gets really interesting

569
00:52:28,045 --> 00:52:33,425
is, again, as a store of value, not just backing Bitcoin denominated policies, but backing fiat

570
00:52:33,425 --> 00:52:39,745
denominated policies because if you're using bitcoin for like a long tail um risk like

571
00:52:39,745 --> 00:52:45,325
meanwhile right they're they're backing um you know they're a life insurance company they're

572
00:52:45,325 --> 00:52:51,105
also bitcoin denominated but like they have a lot of capital that you know if you're paying out a

573
00:52:51,105 --> 00:52:56,845
life insurance policy that's done on dollars for example you know over the course 20 years from now

574
00:52:56,845 --> 00:53:02,465
right and you're using bitcoin to back it like your ratio is going to be great over that time

575
00:53:02,465 --> 00:53:09,405
period, right? It is going to be super interesting to just see how much Bitcoin, like we have more

576
00:53:09,405 --> 00:53:13,685
acknowledgement now. I think it's still, again, on a small scale, like there are still a shocking,

577
00:53:14,245 --> 00:53:17,465
shocking number of people out there who just either think Bitcoin's a scam or whatever. It's

578
00:53:17,465 --> 00:53:23,105
still just magic internet money for computer nerds. But there is a growing realization, I think,

579
00:53:23,105 --> 00:53:27,385
and it's, you know, it's gradually then suddenly that, oh, look, Bitcoin is this kind of, you know,

580
00:53:27,385 --> 00:53:33,605
it is it is money perfected as close as we can get to it right and it is this store of value unlike

581
00:53:33,605 --> 00:53:37,405
anything we've seen before that you also happen to be able to transfer you know at the speed of

582
00:53:37,405 --> 00:53:41,605
light across the world and no one can stop you and you don't need an armored truck and a giant

583
00:53:41,605 --> 00:53:46,505
you know tanker ship to be able to do it like which is you know like gold gold is great gold's

584
00:53:46,505 --> 00:53:52,245
been great money for 5 000 years but gold's not built for the information age it's just plain and

585
00:53:52,245 --> 00:53:56,405
simple it's not and you know not to knock not to knock the gold bugs like your heart is in the

586
00:53:56,405 --> 00:54:00,185
right place with it and it still serves it's purpose they were just too early and and had you

587
00:54:00,185 --> 00:54:05,525
know the yeah technology hadn't come around yet right yeah but we're getting to such a fascinating

588
00:54:05,525 --> 00:54:10,765
time and i was it's going to be amazing to see what happens in the next few years in the next

589
00:54:10,765 --> 00:54:16,605
couple of decades because i think the companies that are embracing bitcoin and what it can do

590
00:54:16,605 --> 00:54:22,885
for them either as a store of value to be able to you know yeah essentially well allow them to

591
00:54:22,885 --> 00:54:29,525
arbitrage the guaranteed depreciation of the value of fiat currency. That's right. Or, or as a medium

592
00:54:29,525 --> 00:54:35,205
of exchange, like, and thereby, you know, you're also, if you're doing it, both of those, you're,

593
00:54:35,245 --> 00:54:38,565
you're also thinking about it as your unit of account, it becomes your, you know, your hurdle

594
00:54:38,565 --> 00:54:42,165
rate is how you're denominating everything else. You are going to have an incredible advantage.

595
00:54:42,165 --> 00:54:45,825
And I think that's, it's very interesting to think about the Bitcoin treasury companies. I mean,

596
00:54:45,825 --> 00:54:52,125
they're getting absolutely hammered right now. Um, I, and I, I didn't realize, uh, uh, uh, BSTR had

597
00:54:52,125 --> 00:54:56,785
that many bitcoin i just checked yet so over 30 000 bitcoin they have now which is yeah i think

598
00:54:56,785 --> 00:55:02,145
they raised i also think they raised um like another billion that's your mark to purchase

599
00:55:02,145 --> 00:55:06,385
more bitcoin or something like that like the they're gonna be they're gonna be a big player

600
00:55:06,385 --> 00:55:13,445
now yeah it's it's wild to see this happening and i think again we're in the very early stages of

601
00:55:13,445 --> 00:55:18,005
this where companies are starting to figure it out and right now it's like a lot of bitcoiners

602
00:55:18,005 --> 00:55:21,525
running these companies starting to figure it out, because they already grok it.

603
00:55:22,265 --> 00:55:26,725
But that's going to permeate into the larger financial ecosystem, I think.

604
00:55:26,805 --> 00:55:29,005
And it's going to be quite interesting to watch.

605
00:55:29,005 --> 00:55:36,105
Yeah, we've got to go through some pain first, though, because now you've got the Solana treasury

606
00:55:36,105 --> 00:55:41,085
companies that are trading publicly, Ethereum companies.

607
00:55:41,085 --> 00:55:48,405
uh you worry we gotta we gotta go through some pain and and some um told you so the crypto

608
00:55:48,405 --> 00:55:54,605
company you know crypto and treasury companies are a scam uh fud for a little while but i think

609
00:55:54,605 --> 00:55:58,785
we'll get through it as we always do uh or bitcoin will you know bitcoin doesn't care

610
00:55:58,785 --> 00:56:03,045
it's crazy to me that it doesn't seem that a lot of these folks running these crypto treasury

611
00:56:03,045 --> 00:56:18,387
companies have thought too deeply about the game theory of what happens when you centralize a vast amount of proof of stake tokens in a single entity And I don know I think those of us who have maybe thought about it a little bit are like yeah I know exactly what going

612
00:56:18,387 --> 00:56:22,587
to happen here. But I seems like a lot of other folks haven't, or maybe they haven't. That's

613
00:56:22,587 --> 00:56:28,267
exactly what they want. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. I wanted to being conscious of your

614
00:56:28,267 --> 00:56:31,587
time here, because I know I think we have a stop here coming up in a few minutes, but we didn't get

615
00:56:31,587 --> 00:56:35,688
a chance to talk yet just about some of the stuff you do on sort of the open source freedom tech

616
00:56:35,688 --> 00:56:39,067
legal side of things. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Because I think that's

617
00:56:39,067 --> 00:56:43,107
a really important part of this. Yeah. And there's a pretty timely... So again,

618
00:56:43,188 --> 00:56:51,847
I'm appellate attorney by training, practiced full-time for 13 years. And for those who are

619
00:56:51,847 --> 00:56:59,767
unfamiliar with appellate as especially, I was hardly ever in front of juries. I would

620
00:56:59,767 --> 00:57:05,267
accompany trial counsel to trial and help preserve records, et cetera. But then

621
00:57:05,267 --> 00:57:13,807
And once a judgment existed or a disposition happened, then that's where I would come in and take it to the next level, take it to the federal appeals courts.

622
00:57:14,587 --> 00:57:17,087
I didn't make it to the U.S. Supreme Court.

623
00:57:17,607 --> 00:57:20,148
I have argued in front of the Florida Supreme Court, though.

624
00:57:20,227 --> 00:57:22,907
So that was not too bad.

625
00:57:23,567 --> 00:57:26,168
A little ways to go to get the U.S. Supreme Court from there.

626
00:57:26,867 --> 00:57:30,867
But so that's what I did and did happily for 13 years.

627
00:57:30,988 --> 00:57:33,027
I still love the practice of law.

628
00:57:33,027 --> 00:57:38,027
I also think that's an institution that has broken by fiat, and that's a whole different conversation.

629
00:57:38,847 --> 00:57:45,087
We can talk about how the incentives have been really perverted within the justice system in a lot of different ways.

630
00:57:46,468 --> 00:57:50,907
So I still practice the occasional case.

631
00:57:51,267 --> 00:57:54,867
I still have my license, and I'm actually our general counsel at Resolver, too.

632
00:57:54,867 --> 00:58:08,027
Um, but one case that I'm working on right now, I'm not primary counsel, but I, I have helped draft, um, specific arguments in the appellate brief is, um, Roman Sterling off.

633
00:58:08,468 --> 00:58:17,887
He, um, was convicted of running Bitcoin fog, which was a custodial Bitcoin mixing service.

634
00:58:17,887 --> 00:58:23,148
and that was really, I mean, like from 2011, 12, 13,

635
00:58:23,307 --> 00:58:27,347
like we're going back to like Bitcoin ancient history here, right?

636
00:58:28,347 --> 00:58:32,307
And was convicted and denies having ever run it.

637
00:58:32,527 --> 00:58:38,727
There's no direct evidence that he built this marketplace,

638
00:58:39,047 --> 00:58:40,347
built the code, built the service.

639
00:58:41,168 --> 00:58:45,307
The only, I mean, there's really no direct FBI, IRS,

640
00:58:45,307 --> 00:58:51,827
searched all of his servers, didn't find anything related to Bitcoin Fog, right? The only evidence

641
00:58:51,827 --> 00:58:58,107
connecting him is the forensic evidence from chain analysis. Then that isn't even really

642
00:58:58,107 --> 00:59:03,468
connecting him directly to these transactions, but clustering all the transactions that Bitcoin

643
00:59:03,468 --> 00:59:08,567
Fog ever made to get this ginormous number for conspiracy to commit money laundering, right?

644
00:59:08,567 --> 00:59:29,787
And then some really untested, unproven IP overlap analysis that one of the agents did, where basically they just said, well, he at one point used an IP address that was used, same IP address that was used by whoever ran the mixing service, right?

645
00:59:29,787 --> 00:59:32,567
And so thus one-to-one overlap match, right?

646
00:59:32,648 --> 00:59:39,847
But of course, everyone could be sharing, you know, we could be sharing an IP address right now if we're sitting in the same room, right?

647
00:59:39,847 --> 00:59:44,468
Or if you're sitting across the street from me, or if we're using the same VPN, right?

648
00:59:45,327 --> 00:59:49,688
Like that in and of itself was not a link, right?

649
00:59:50,688 --> 00:59:53,988
And so basically, he was a proponent of privacy.

650
00:59:53,988 --> 01:00:08,927
He knew that you needed to use something to obfuscate your activity on chain if you didn't want your grocer, if you were buying groceries with Bitcoin, knowing that you donated to a Chinese dissident group.

651
01:00:10,648 --> 01:00:14,347
That's what we're talking about when we're talking about financial privacy, right?

652
01:00:14,807 --> 01:00:19,668
It's the ability to protect yourself and shield yourself from authoritarian regimes.

653
01:00:20,027 --> 01:00:22,047
That's what it's all about.

654
01:00:22,047 --> 01:00:29,507
he knew you needed to do this and was an advocate of the service and used the service but by doing so

655
01:00:29,507 --> 01:00:36,768
put himself in jeopardy of of you know being fingered by technology and chain analysis is a

656
01:00:36,768 --> 01:00:43,707
proprietary piece of software that the company you know the reactor software licenses to the

657
01:00:43,707 --> 01:00:49,448
federal government want to talk about incentives being you know kind of out of whack chain analysis

658
01:00:49,448 --> 01:00:54,327
gets government contracts, right? So, you know, then they're going to provide reports to the

659
01:00:54,327 --> 01:00:59,427
government and, you know, assist in law enforcement. Like, you know, you wonder how often you're going

660
01:00:59,427 --> 01:01:08,268
to get matches there. And so at trial, Roman's counsel and Roman, he challenged the reliability

661
01:01:08,268 --> 01:01:15,448
of chain analysis reactor reports, right? Of the actual chain, you know, the on-chain data analytics,

662
01:01:15,448 --> 01:01:34,387
Right. And the so-called tracing of the funds is unreliable. There's no there's chain analysis admitted. There is no no testing, no peer reviewed testing on it. It's black box software. No one can see the code. Right. To see if it's it's, you know, compiling and executing properly.

663
01:01:34,387 --> 01:01:41,607
they stuff in a bunch of different heuristics that are outside of bitcoin that are just you

664
01:01:41,607 --> 01:01:46,627
know data that has been scraped from outside sources that helps with this this clustering

665
01:01:46,627 --> 01:01:53,487
technique that they do so an example of how that might skew a report from a chain analysis

666
01:01:53,487 --> 01:02:01,168
a competitor's software was used to run the same uh tracing and to cluster the bitcoin fog

667
01:02:01,168 --> 01:02:08,607
transactions, the mixers transactions, and came up with something like 400,000 fewer transactions

668
01:02:08,607 --> 01:02:16,367
than chain analysis. So chain analysis clustering was, yeah, order, it just totally over-inclusive,

669
01:02:16,587 --> 01:02:21,468
right? Compared to this other software, right? And at the end of the day, there's nowhere,

670
01:02:21,468 --> 01:02:27,087
no real way to verify it. No false positives are on record or known, no false negatives.

671
01:02:27,087 --> 01:02:31,867
Like there's just no testing that has been done of this software.

672
01:02:32,227 --> 01:02:43,268
And under the federal evidence code, you actually do have to prove these things to get it in as forensic evidence, expert evidence, right?

673
01:02:43,287 --> 01:02:52,847
You have to prove that it's reliable scientific evidence and meet those thresholds of peer review, you know, the safety records, right?

674
01:02:53,748 --> 01:02:55,248
Which just weren't done here.

675
01:02:55,248 --> 01:03:12,648
So that's primarily what we're challenging. And it's a case that often gets overlooked because there's, you know, Tornado Cash and the other, you know, the other Roman, Roman Storm. And that is a, you know, a non-custodial mixer of Ethereum. Right.

676
01:03:12,648 --> 01:03:20,347
And then, of course, in Bitcoin, Samurai Wallet and the developers of that tool were prosecuted and had to take a plea.

677
01:03:21,688 --> 01:03:26,507
Otherwise, they were going to spend 20 plus years in jail for creating code.

678
01:03:26,507 --> 01:03:28,127
So all of this is bad.

679
01:03:28,248 --> 01:03:35,927
But yeah, our client, Roman Sterlingov's case, often gets overlooked because it's from an older time period.

680
01:03:36,268 --> 01:03:38,107
He wasn't the developer of the software.

681
01:03:38,227 --> 01:03:41,407
He was just an advocate of privacy and a user of this tool.

682
01:03:41,407 --> 01:03:54,927
But it's extraordinarily frightening to me as a Bitcoin user that if I use these tools like Samurai Wallet, right, or something else that comes along, I might get fingered as the one who created it.

683
01:03:55,107 --> 01:04:01,668
And there's no way to verify that because the government's using black box evidence.

684
01:04:01,668 --> 01:04:07,027
It can be frightening, but that's why we're out here.

685
01:04:07,227 --> 01:04:21,387
And thank God that Roman, all credit to him for taking it to trial and standing on his rights to be presumed innocent until convicted otherwise.

686
01:04:21,387 --> 01:04:25,307
And then continuing to fight through sentencing and on appeal.

687
01:04:25,507 --> 01:04:30,648
So it takes a lot of bravery to face the justice system.

688
01:04:31,668 --> 01:04:34,968
What happens next in this process for him?

689
01:04:35,707 --> 01:04:38,487
Yeah, so the brief should be filed this week, actually.

690
01:04:39,407 --> 01:04:48,527
And that will be filed in the District of Columbia Circuit Court, which here is cases out of the trial court, the District of Columbia specifically.

691
01:04:48,527 --> 01:04:58,207
And yeah, just a great team of attorneys that I came on right towards the end and was able to assist as much as I could.

692
01:04:58,207 --> 01:05:03,248
but a great team that put together a lot of arguments.

693
01:05:03,668 --> 01:05:05,427
There's a lot of things that went wrong in this case,

694
01:05:05,987 --> 01:05:07,807
but it'll go to briefing.

695
01:05:08,468 --> 01:05:11,168
Now, a brief will be filed this week.

696
01:05:11,567 --> 01:05:13,448
The government will have their responsive brief.

697
01:05:13,627 --> 01:05:17,707
In a few months, Roman will get one final reply brief,

698
01:05:17,707 --> 01:05:23,448
and then maybe there'll be argument in, call it June of next year,

699
01:05:23,607 --> 01:05:28,188
and then the court will decide whether to vacate his conviction.

700
01:05:28,207 --> 01:05:31,148
or at least his sentencing and send it back down.

701
01:05:31,527 --> 01:05:36,748
But this case has been going on since I don't remember exactly when it was filed, maybe 2021, 2022.

702
01:05:37,547 --> 01:05:40,248
And he's been incarcerated pretty much the whole time.

703
01:05:40,968 --> 01:05:51,768
It just seems like such a perversion of justice to use this black box, unproven technique when there's actually no hard evidence linking someone to a purported crime.

704
01:05:52,327 --> 01:05:52,448
Yeah.

705
01:05:53,087 --> 01:05:57,668
That's without even debating the merits of whether or not that even is a crime in the first place.

706
01:05:57,668 --> 01:06:04,787
Just like taking that aside, how can you possibly convict a man and send him to prison when you don't actually have any evidence?

707
01:06:04,867 --> 01:06:17,127
The only evidence that you have, you're not going to actually share how that evidence is in any way meaningful because there's no way for anyone to test it or look through this in a meaningful way beyond like, trust me, bro, basically.

708
01:06:17,367 --> 01:06:17,527
Yeah.

709
01:06:17,567 --> 01:06:18,768
That's just crazy to me.

710
01:06:18,768 --> 01:06:19,188
Yeah.

711
01:06:19,188 --> 01:06:21,867
I mean, it's overused, but I think it's apt here.

712
01:06:21,948 --> 01:06:31,127
Kafka-esque is like this would be almost too unreal for Kafka to write about, right, to satirize.

713
01:06:32,007 --> 01:06:33,248
It's too on the nose.

714
01:06:33,847 --> 01:06:41,748
And it's not just Bitcoin, really, or cryptocurrency where this kind of black box evidence is used.

715
01:06:41,948 --> 01:06:44,907
It's pervasive in the justice system now.

716
01:06:44,907 --> 01:06:49,367
Um, so there's actually some pretty decent precedent, which gives me hope.

717
01:06:49,768 --> 01:06:55,027
Um, there's some pretty decent precedent on, you know, exactly how you need to go about

718
01:06:55,027 --> 01:06:57,227
verifying proprietary software.

719
01:06:57,227 --> 01:07:02,188
And a lot of it does involve disclosing the code under confidentiality orders that are

720
01:07:02,188 --> 01:07:05,867
not, that was also an issue in this case, the confidentiality orders that like, Oh,

721
01:07:05,887 --> 01:07:11,427
you can see the code, but any of your experts has to basically certify that, you know, that

722
01:07:11,427 --> 01:07:19,127
They can never work for any kind of blockchain tracing company ever under this non-compete.

723
01:07:19,127 --> 01:07:32,448
And it wasn't that broad, but subjecting themselves to significant civil liability if they were to just look at the code of chain analysis and provide an expert opinion within the scope of this trial.

724
01:07:32,668 --> 01:07:35,507
So this is pervasive across the justice system.

725
01:07:35,807 --> 01:07:38,867
Like there's DNA testing, right?

726
01:07:38,867 --> 01:07:47,587
There's certain probabilistic DNA tests that can be done if you have kind of a compromised DNA specimen that can kind of reconstruct the DNA.

727
01:07:47,948 --> 01:07:50,168
And that was heavily litigated.

728
01:07:50,307 --> 01:08:00,027
There were like two main companies that had just basically there was a the founder of that company was going out and trust me, bro, in his testimony all over the place.

729
01:08:00,127 --> 01:08:02,427
There's no peer review, but trust me, bro, like it works.

730
01:08:02,668 --> 01:08:04,887
Here's our system and how we've tested it.

731
01:08:04,948 --> 01:08:05,127
Right.

732
01:08:05,907 --> 01:08:07,448
And court said that's not enough.

733
01:08:07,448 --> 01:08:17,828
Like they had reversed convictions on that and said, you actually need to show peer review testing, you know, reliable, you know, the statistics from them, incidents of false positives.

734
01:08:18,047 --> 01:08:24,167
Right. You need to have that data so that the so that the jury can actually wait and determine.

735
01:08:24,627 --> 01:08:27,328
Well, first first of all, whether or not it even goes to the jury. Right.

736
01:08:27,768 --> 01:08:33,248
This is this is like if it's so unreliable, the jury can't consider it. Right. That's in the federal evidence code.

737
01:08:33,248 --> 01:08:34,527
But that was one.

738
01:08:34,667 --> 01:08:39,208
There's another one that's actually pretty scary, too, called Shot Spotter.

739
01:08:39,688 --> 01:08:42,407
And this is something that police departments use.

740
01:08:43,148 --> 01:08:44,007
There's like microphones.

741
01:08:44,127 --> 01:08:53,427
A company puts up microphones up high, like all around high crime areas, right, which, you know, is generally code for, you know, black areas, right, in the United States.

742
01:08:54,788 --> 01:08:56,087
Low income areas.

743
01:08:56,447 --> 01:08:57,627
Put them up all around.

744
01:08:57,627 --> 01:09:21,607
And if there's a shot, like a blast, you know, that sounds kind of like a gun shot, then that immediately gets sent to the local police department and sent out for investigation. Right. So this now becomes like, oh, the only evidence we had was that the shot spotter said there was a shot fired when this guy was in the neighborhood over here. Right.

745
01:09:21,607 --> 01:09:32,248
And that's, you know, I know folks who work with the police departments in their like IT department and they're like, this stuff is not reliable.

746
01:09:33,007 --> 01:09:41,388
It is with the cops have actually stopped using it as like their primary source of reasonable suspicion because it's just not it's black box technology.

747
01:09:41,708 --> 01:09:50,987
It's hyper sensitive to, you know, you think about like a car backfiring or something like that, you know, setting it off.

748
01:09:50,987 --> 01:10:12,927
So like this is sentencing software to like if you want to get really like minority report, there was some software that was used to help set sentencing guidelines to help judges understand like what the sentence should be and like recidivism rates based on, you know, factors of the case and factors of the defendant.

749
01:10:12,927 --> 01:10:36,587
And, you know, what would be the appropriate amount of sentencing in this case, right? That's why, you know, I think there's some countries, and don't quote me on this, but there's some countries I think that are leaning towards just mandating any kind of forensic evidence in court has to be open source, especially if it has to do with liberty interests, right? Just make it open source, have it available for everybody to test, right?

750
01:10:36,587 --> 01:10:40,967
And as we know, open source software is the safest, right?

751
01:10:40,987 --> 01:10:43,208
It's constantly being tested.

752
01:10:44,087 --> 01:10:52,328
And at least if it's a sufficiently used open source technology, you know, there's a lot of eyes on it all the time, right?

753
01:10:52,447 --> 01:10:54,888
And testing it, probing it, and making sure that it's accurate.

754
01:10:55,848 --> 01:10:57,967
I'm glad you brought that up because I was literally just thinking that.

755
01:10:57,967 --> 01:11:04,907
It seems like the only way you can possibly have any sort of trust in a justice system is if it is transparent.

756
01:11:04,907 --> 01:11:15,907
And so if you are using technological tools that obfuscate that process, you cannot possibly have faith in that justice is being done fairly.

757
01:11:16,447 --> 01:11:17,947
Like you need to open source it.

758
01:11:18,127 --> 01:11:18,328
Exactly.

759
01:11:18,967 --> 01:11:19,848
Necessarily must.

760
01:11:19,967 --> 01:11:25,547
I mean one would think that that would be like kind of a common sense prerequisite, but apparently not.

761
01:11:25,627 --> 01:11:30,148
I'm sure there's a lot of lobbying that goes into that as well to say, look, we have to keep it closed source.

762
01:11:30,487 --> 01:11:31,367
It's the incentives.

763
01:11:31,367 --> 01:11:43,727
It has to be closed source because if we disclose it, and this is literally what, you know, chain analysis and the government argued in Roman's case, is that, oh, then, you know, this is a cat and mouse game, right?

764
01:11:43,768 --> 01:11:55,867
And so then the money launderers are going to be able to know how to trick our system and know exactly how to structure their transactions to avoid capture through chain analysis.

765
01:11:55,867 --> 01:11:58,268
So it must remain closed source, right?

766
01:11:58,268 --> 01:12:13,708
Which if you think about it also is like, okay, well, now you're presuming the defendant not only guilty of money laundering to begin with, but that he and all of his attorneys are going to disclose the code and disseminate it beyond the trial, right, confines.

767
01:12:13,708 --> 01:12:19,987
Like, you know, that's multiple horrible assumptions that are – one of which is unconstitutional, right?

768
01:12:19,987 --> 01:12:26,127
but yeah the incentives are there nonetheless to keep to keep the software closed the financial

769
01:12:26,127 --> 01:12:30,667
incentives are there and there's a bunch of different rabbit holes we could go down there

770
01:12:30,667 --> 01:12:34,967
but i do want to be conscious of your time save it for another one yeah looking forward to well

771
01:12:34,967 --> 01:12:39,288
hey uh this is a great chat glad to have you on here where do you want to uh we're doing the sun

772
01:12:39,288 --> 01:12:43,927
folks or anything else you want to leave people with yeah absolutely so you can just go to you

773
01:12:43,927 --> 01:12:54,427
Resolver's website, resolver.io, and there's no E at the end before the R because we're trying to – again, we came from Nostre, so no unnecessary vowels.

774
01:12:56,248 --> 01:13:00,607
Yeah, so just check out the website for updates on when BDIC is coming live.

775
01:13:01,288 --> 01:13:03,927
You can find me on Nostre.

776
01:13:03,927 --> 01:13:08,888
You can tag my inpub on X as well.

777
01:13:10,828 --> 01:13:12,967
I'm out there on LinkedIn too.

778
01:13:12,967 --> 01:13:16,648
You got to stay in that universe as a founder.

779
01:13:17,407 --> 01:13:18,167
Yeah, fair enough.

780
01:13:18,308 --> 01:13:18,667
Fair enough.

781
01:13:18,848 --> 01:13:20,248
Well, hey, great having you on here.

782
01:13:20,768 --> 01:13:24,627
Looking forward to seeing what the next few years hold for you guys.

783
01:13:25,167 --> 01:13:29,947
And yeah, wishing the best of luck to you and the team and Roman Sterlinghoff as well,

784
01:13:30,027 --> 01:13:33,768
because let's hope there's some justice that can actually be delivered there.

785
01:13:34,367 --> 01:13:34,527
Yeah.

786
01:13:34,827 --> 01:13:35,027
Yeah.

787
01:13:35,087 --> 01:13:38,768
From your mouth to the judge's ears, right?

788
01:13:39,607 --> 01:13:42,607
Let's hope common sense may prevail still.

789
01:13:42,607 --> 01:13:43,708
There may still be hope.

790
01:13:44,507 --> 01:13:45,467
Great talking to you, Aaron.

791
01:13:45,527 --> 01:13:46,348
We'll talk again soon.

792
01:13:46,487 --> 01:13:46,748
All right.

793
01:13:46,808 --> 01:13:47,388
Good talking, Walker.

794
01:13:47,788 --> 01:13:48,327
Talk to you soon.

795
01:14:12,607 --> 01:14:16,067
and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin.

796
01:14:16,507 --> 01:14:19,928
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America

797
01:14:19,928 --> 01:14:24,788
and find this podcast on X and Instagram at titcoinpodcast.

798
01:14:24,947 --> 01:14:27,467
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links,

799
01:14:27,547 --> 01:14:30,428
head to substack.com slash at Walker America

800
01:14:30,428 --> 01:14:32,268
to get episodes emailed to you

801
01:14:32,268 --> 01:14:36,067
and head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else.

802
01:14:36,607 --> 01:14:40,167
Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant.

803
01:14:40,167 --> 01:14:45,527
So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to The Bitcoin Podcast.

804
01:14:46,327 --> 01:14:48,827
Until next time, stay free.