I didn't know about time preference until Bitcoin.
That was not a word that was in my lexicon.
Now that I understand it, now that I see it, it's crept into every part of my life.
That's led me to, yeah, want to produce the highest quality wine, not take any shortcuts,
but also like in relationships and in food and everything in my life.
It's, it's building for the long term.
When you start figuring out that I can actually save money for the future.
And then you start investing your time to be able to enjoy that future.
So you just kind of take a lower time preference.
You do things better.
You create better relationships.
You eat better food.
And if we see that on a larger scale, like just the case study of other
Bitcoiners like me, that's an awesome world.
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.
My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast.
The Bitcoin block height is 831-576 and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.
Today's episode is Bitcoin talk where I talk with my guest about Bitcoin and whatever else comes up.
Today, that guest is Ben Justman.
Ben is a winemaker, a Bitcoiner and an all around great dude.
We talk about wine naturally and drink some as well.
Time preference, Bitcoin for businesses and a whole lot more.
Head to the show notes to follow Ben and grab yourself a bottle or two of P&E lane wine.
As always, you can watch the video version of this episode on rumble, YouTube or X by
searching at Walker America or listen on fountain.fm or wherever you get your podcasts by searching
for the Bitcoin podcast.
And if you listen to the Bitcoin podcast on fountain, consider giving this show a boost
or creating a clip of something you found interesting.
And if you are a Bitcoin only company interested in sponsoring another fucking Bitcoin podcast,
hit me up on social media or through the website, Bitcoinpodcast.net.
Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk with Ben Justman.
Man, how's it going?
Good, dude. Good.
I had just like so many good things working in the background, super high form.
So your literal background looks pretty nice too.
I've got to say, talk about good things working.
Yeah. I mean, that's just that's on autopilot there.
All that wine getting better.
That's amazing.
I've got some right now.
I opened up a bottle of the, let's see the Tempranillo.
Tempranillo and or, or, you know, Tempranillo,
depending on how you want to say it, I suppose.
But this one's fantastic.
I got a couple of or one bottle of this, a couple of the Sera Cabernet and the Merlot.
I wanted to just paint it, paint it all over.
Yeah. Yeah.
So I got that.
I had to give Carlo a glass of it before I jumped on here.
I was like, OK, I won't drink the whole bottle to myself.
I'll give you a little glass there.
But she's going to be excited to be drinking a little bit again.
Oh, most definitely.
It's it's nice now that our little guys, I mean, you know, he's a couple of months old now,
but, you know, a little more predictable on the feeding schedule.
And so she can kind of pump in advance and then be be ready to go.
So she can at least still enjoy a nice glass of wine without worrying about
little little man getting tipsy, you know.
Hell, yeah.
I've got my first taste in a little while of my
2022 Pinot Noir that I've my plan was to release it next like this coming fall.
But it's my state wine and it's like it's hard to like not having a state wine for sale.
It's, you know, it's also my highest dollar wine.
So when someone asks to purchase a hundred dollar bottle, I want to say yes.
Right.
But I won't release it until June at the earliest.
It's just like it gets so much better with time that I don't want to rush it.
Well, cheers, first of all.
Cheers to you. Yeah.
You know, I can't wait to do this in person again also.
You guys aren't going to the ski summit this year. Are you?
I don't think we're going to be.
I'm traveling is tough right now.
Yeah, we're pretty much laying low, I think, until
Bitcoin Nashville.
Yeah. Gotta get used to saying Nashville, not Miami now.
Right. But yeah, yeah, a little guy is a little man's not quite ready to be making
the conference circuit. But before too long, we'll have him up there.
You know, he'll be I'm seeing to I'm sure.
Yeah, I'm sure it's you guys.
Exactly. He's got to learn to talk first.
But, you know, once that happens, he probably won't probably won't stop.
Oh man, can't wait.
And I was thinking that Pinot Noir, that was what you were serving at Jackson Hole
at the ski summit last year.
Right. I mean, maybe was it the 2022 or was it a 20?
Prior vintage 20. That was a 20.
I remember that stuff went.
I had like a glass or two of it went up there to get another.
And they were like, now the Pinot Noir, it's gone.
And like people just snapped it right up.
I mean, which is a nice testament to the wine itself.
Definitely. I mean, that's not your other your vintages.
You know, they're all fantastic. But that one was.
No, I know, like that's.
This is the hardest.
Like I saw this coming.
This is my I'm selling my 2021 vintage.
Everything froze out that year.
And that was my first year of doing wine sales.
So like right when I'm getting my business going, like, oh, fuck, this is going to suck.
But I mean, it's working out fine.
Like I've got I'll just start selling my 2022.
Oh, maybe a little bit early or something.
I mean, I'm not going to release it if it's not ready.
You know, like that's the biggest thing is you can't release wine.
That's not ready.
So worst case, I just wait.
But then after 2022, man, this past year, 2023 vintage,
like I got so much peanut and a wire.
So I'll be rolling in it.
I'm sure that is music not only to my ears, but to many of your fans who are listening.
And with that, I kind of want to start out just for anyone who may not know you,
just to kind of like to start with a very simple question, which is,
who are you and how did you get here today?
And in your case, how did you get to be this bit?
Coiner making wine the right way and selling it at Bitcoin conferences,
selling it to bit coiners?
Like, what was your journey to what brought you right here to now having
barrels and barrels of wine behind you and going on this like pretty incredible
Bitcoin tangential journey?
Yeah, definitely did not set out on this as a bit coiner.
It came along with the ride.
But I guess I'll just going a little bit further back.
I moved to Vietnam for a year in like a couple of years after college
and was teaching English and.
How did you all agree?
Kind of was like, I'll do that when I get home and ended up doing that.
But in Vietnam, I got really bored and I started reading a ton and read
books that both set me up to start a business and to figure out Bitcoin.
I read The Only Game in Town, which is a Federal Reserve book,
like a book about central banking that's 300 pages long.
I can't believe I read that when I was 22.
But that set the stage for me to be like, oh, yeah.
So the feds screwed. Of course, Bitcoin makes sense.
That's my other option.
And then I read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, which made me realize that inherently
I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur just like my dad have my own business and everything.
And then moved back home, works as a geologist, got bored,
quarter life crisis, realized I wanted something to commit to
business wise, more than just a side hustle.
And my dad's
my dad's life goal was to grow all his own food.
So I grew up on a farm and he got convinced to grow grapes one year
and ended up wanting to grow all his own food.
He made his own wine and it turned out pretty good.
And knowing my dad, like
he didn't know what he was doing.
I swear the guy can't even taste or smell, but he made really good wine.
I like everyone loved it.
Like it wasn't it's not me saying it's really good wine.
It was like the market determined that it was really good wine.
So I'm at 25, hitting my job as a geologist and
realized that on a conversation with my dad over the phone, it was just like,
oh, this is a no brainer.
You have all the equipment to get me started as like, you know,
hobby baseline, at least get me going, winemaker and grapes that I know
with minimal input will produce high quality wine.
So if I can start there and just like scale up over the years,
I think I can do this if my dad did it.
So I kind of just like, I can't say I dropped everything
because you start a winery and then you wait.
So I had two years before I was going to make any sales once I started it.
But I just I was commuting from Denver to Peonia about five hours
every weekend for a couple of months.
Basically would work 40 hours in four days in Denver, drive five hours that night
and then work three total hour days and then drive back to get started making wine.
And then once the wine is fermented, pressed in barrel and everything,
you can just kind of chill and you top off the barrels once a month.
So intense start got going.
And then I worked as geologist for another year until 2020 when I.
Start working remote.
It just sucked and moved back home and built a house with my dad.
And that was the second year of my waiting process for the wine to be ready.
So.
Then over that year, that second year of waiting while I'm building this house
that I'm going to live in with my dad, I had moved back home
with a really good friend from high school, who I consider to be like the smartest guy
I know, and he's really into Bitcoin.
And so we would talk like geopolitics, finance, all that stuff, business.
And he just just like, you know, kept poking me, look at look at Bitcoin.
And when all the interest rates on my savings accounts dropped to zero in 2019,
I kind of been like, oh, cool.
So this system broke in.
I can't just save money and keep up with 2% inflation. I need to find something else.
So I was primed to look for it.
I had the background knowledge of the central banking and.
This, you know, the smart, influential person that I trusted said, look at Bitcoin.
So then I'm building my house, just listening to like four hours of Bitcoin
podcast today and become orange-pilled.
Unfortunately, like it, like right as the price is pumping.
So, you know, as a novice investor and new Bitcoin, or got really excited
and thought the price was going to infinity.
So, you know, buying a lot on the way up and at the top and everything,
but it's just been a ride ever since then.
And I, I, I was a Bitcoin for a year and never been on Twitter and then got on Twitter
and just was like, because my buddy knew everything before me.
And so I was like, well, I just want to know stuff quickly.
And so started learning and then just started posting my stuff.
And then sure enough, Bitcoiners, I didn't even think about it.
Bitcoiners just started to ask to buy my wine in Bitcoin.
And so I made that happen.
And one thing leads to another.
Now that's, I mean, that's what I do for not totally, but that's a lot of what I do.
It's a, it's a pretty beautiful journey.
I mean, you know, to kind of, you went from very much the, the fiat world and
as you were going on this wine journey, and I think that there's this beautiful
parallel to between making wine and Bitcoin.
And, you know, maybe people will be like, what the fuck are you talking about?
But like wine is truly proof of work.
Like it is literally you put in the time, not only to grow these grapes and to make
sure that, you know, you're doing, having the best agricultural practices there,
but then to wait.
Like it's literally as much of a low time preference activity as you could
possibly imagine, especially from a business standpoint, like it's not instant
gratification, it's the exact opposite.
And so I think that's kind of like, it's almost this beautifully natural fit with
folks in the Bitcoin space, because they look and, you know, especially like, I
remember seeing some of, I think you were, you were riding a tractor to the
farmer's market with the barrel of wine in the back.
Like I remember seeing some posts like that.
I was like, who the hell is this guy?
And, but I don't know, but like he's making wine and he's, you know, selling it
for, for Bitcoin and for fiat too, no judgment there.
And I was like, this is just, this is really cool.
So, you know, to me, it makes kind of this perfect sense that Bitcoiners like
gravitate toward this.
And it seems to me that you, like, you will be like this case study in super
niche industry marketing for something that has mass market appeal.
Like just about everybody likes wine, but you found this really incredible
niche of Bitcoiners who also like wine, who are willing to be like these die
hard, you know, promote your product, love your brand fans, but also not just
because your product is great, but because of the way that you do it.
And like, I think that's, that's kind of special.
Like it's people seem to really care about your process behind it more so
than just here's a product, let me buy it, let me enjoy it.
That's fine too.
But I mean, I assume that you've gotten like quite a lot of reactions,
especially once you start, sort of go into conferences that we're like, wow,
this is amazing just to see this proof of work, to see your process and to see
how you're doing it.
Like, can you talk about that a little bit and just like what some of those
reactions you got from, from Bitcoiners were when you were first, you know,
kind of getting out into the Twitter sphere and then also into the physical
Bitcoin conference circuit.
Yeah.
Well, one other thing that my wine specifically connects to that is like
additionally tangential to Bitcoin is I find a lot of Bitcoiners are very
concerned about their long term health.
And like, you know, I know where I'm going to prosper.
I have Bitcoin.
So why don't I set myself up to be physically able to enjoy that when I'm
60, 65, whatever.
And a lot of those people, I mean, I've found and I personally went down the
journey of like eating a lot more beef, for instance, and wine also pairs well
with beef, so it's perfect there.
But my wine specifically is made without any additives.
So it's just the grapes.
And what I've found in that is like a lot of people go to Europe and why
when I go to Europe, I can just drink wine all the time and not feel bad.
It's because they're making wine like I make wine and it's within the wine
niche, the natural wine niche is definitely there.
And it's more of a niche in the United States because in Europe, and I'm
generalizing in Europe and France and in Italy, a lot of wines are made this way.
And you just, you don't get, you don't feel bad after drinking it.
And so it's like a lot of people want to cut out alcohol because they view it
as this horrible thing.
And I'm with you, like we all got to find balance with alcohol.
There's definitely, you can have serious addiction issues that can lead to
bad health consequences.
But it's a lot easier to find the correct balance with alcohol when it's
not destroying your health, even in like really the short run.
So I really just talk about like using wine, drinking wine to enhance
experiences as opposed to escaping.
So what's cool for me is like, I could say, I send wine all over to people
that I'm like friends with on Twitter.
And then I hear about how they had this amazing like dinner with their
family with my wine.
And that's like, you know, I've put so much work into these bottles.
It's great to hear the enjoyment of the wine.
The enjoyment, and how it's like brought joy to other people.
And it's shined a light in a pretty dark, shady industry where like, we as
Bitcoiners look at money and see how much shadiness there is in the Fiat
monetary complex.
And in the like quote, unquote, wine industrial complex, there's so much
of that too.
I mean, there's just like big wineries.
Well, sure, they grow great grapes generally, but they're doing things
that are eroding the coolness of it.
So things like drip irrigation.
What that does is it's bringing the roots.
It's like the roots are so incentivized to be close to the surface that
they're not going super deep and like enjoying all that rich nutrients
deep into the ground.
And therefore the wine kind of just becomes whatever you add fertilizer
wise from it.
I mean, obviously it's the grapes doing stuff too.
But then within that, once it's in the winemaking process, these winemakers,
not all of them, like I'm generalizing here, but a lot of the wine industry
is made to taste a very specific way.
So when you drink like what you're drinking now, a tempernio, that wine is
crafted to taste, quote unquote, like a tempernio should, as opposed to the
tempernio that came from Colorado at this elevation in this year.
It's like, if you are just manipulating it to taste the exact same, sure,
you're going to get a product that you can count on and put on grocery
store shelves and every time someone gets a bottle of it from that brand,
it's going to taste the exact same.
I get the large business like you don't want to take risk.
You know, you want a product that sells.
But I think what makes wine cool is kind of the free market play
of the natural factors that come into play each year.
So every year, my estate Pino is going to taste slightly different.
And the whole point is I don't want to do anything to change that.
I think it's always generally going to be good.
I'll have some great years.
I'll have some decent years.
But my job is to kind of let it do its thing and allow the, allow nature
to have its highs and lows and enjoy the variability.
So it's kind of like with, I mean, if it's a controlled market,
you get a certain amount of benefit, but you just are, you're taken off the high.
You're trying to take off the low and you just lose so much when in the
free market competition of, I mean, free market competition of nature,
like interacting with all these things, different.
Different ventures are great.
And if you are so worried about losing that bottom side, like eliminating
that, you're also eliminating the top side.
I think that that's such a, like an interesting perspective, because I think
most people, and again, I'll speak for Americans being one, but.
You know, there's like, you go into any supermarket or any liquor store and
there are more wine brands that you can, then you can possibly count.
And like you said,
most of the time, if you get a bottle of wine from one year to the next of
the same brand, it's going to taste basically exactly the same.
Like unless I'm sure somebody with a really good palette could maybe tell
the some small difference, but not, you know, for the average person,
like it's exactly the same and that's, that's comfortable, right?
It's something that is very predictable and very nice.
But I love the idea that you're not trying to, how can I say, like, make
excuses for what nature is going to do?
Like you're going to have different weather from year to year.
You're going to have different rainfall from year to year.
That's all going to give it that your wine that you're making this natural
way, its own little special kick from year to year.
And I think that that's a, again, a very, like you're looking at it in a very
holistic way.
You're not saying, okay, how do I control for just one thing?
You're kind of saying, let me pull back from trying to control all the
little things and just let the wine do what it's supposed to do.
Cause humans have been drinking wine for a very long time.
Like since we figured out that you could do it, like, and I, you know,
I know there are a lot of Bitcoiners to her, like I don't touch alcohol.
It's poison.
And I always say, like, if it's good enough for Jesus, wine is good enough for me.
You know, there is everything in moderation, right?
And there, it sure does go well with steak.
And if I may, can I ask you a question?
If I may, can I just read the back of your, your Tempranillo?
Because it's really, it's quite lovely just for the folks out there.
So ripened by intense sunshine and crisp mountaineer are sustainably
grown Tempranillo grapes yield vibrant untamed natural wine.
Savor the allure of dark cherry and deep prune enhanced by spiced vanilla,
black pepper and clove.
Let the smooth velvety tenants wrap your palate in a warm embrace.
And then here you have, it's just you and the grapes skin to skin.
And I love the skin to skin part on every cork too.
You've got that on there.
And it's just nice.
It's nice to know also, like same with, you know, knowing your, your rancher.
It's like the idea of like, you're no, oh, it's the term.
Vintner, right?
The wine maker, knowing your vintner.
It's a cool thing to be able to do.
And like we, we had some friends over for like our, since we've had the baby,
like we've just had a, you know, family and, you know, over these past couple of months,
we finally had some friends over, had a little dinner party, busted out a bottle of this.
And it's great because like you get to tell the story.
It's not just a bottle of wine on the table.
It's like, oh, we know the guy who made this.
He's making it in Colorado.
He's doing it the old fashioned way, you know, and it's cool to be able to tell that story.
And can, can you talk just a little bit more because your region in Colorado,
where you grow your grapes is kind of unique, right?
I mean, Colorado is not, uh, overall huge wine country.
Like it's not like it's, you know, Northern California.
And you are in a specific region that has some unique properties, right?
Can you talk about that a little bit?
Cause I think it's really fascinating.
Yeah.
So Colorado has a couple of different areas where grapes are grown.
Where I am is the West Elks AVA and the, and a very, though a slightly larger AVA,
American Fidder Cultural Association.
It's basically just a wine growing region is about 1500 feet lower than me in Grand Junction.
That's where most of the grapes in Colorado are produced.
But where I am, there's 10 wineries and we are the highest elevation wine region in the world.
Wine region in North America.
So my vineyards at 5,680 feet and the vineyards go all the way up to like 7,000.
So within that, a lot of people will be like, how do you grow grapes there?
And the point is, is like, you find the grapes that do grow here.
So there's a few different grapes that grow here and a few that like sort of do.
And then some that'll just die off and you'll never get a crop.
And the Pinot Noir is the only, really the only red that has proven itself to grow insanely well here.
And the high elevation just really brings out some awesome characteristics.
So it's going to have like a ripping acidity.
And then the hot days and cool nights bring out really nice, like vibrant fruit flavors as well.
And I'm kind of like a more delicate wine that just fits perfectly well for the Pinot.
I don't grow anything other than Pinot.
The rest of the grapes I buy generally from the Grand Valley AVA.
I'm like way more interested in red wine because of the time preference.
I love having in barrel for a year.
And it's, I don't know, it's more exciting for me.
But Chardonnay, Gervershtrominer and Riesling also grow really well here.
And there's a few other wineries that just do an amazing job with those varieties.
So the thing is with a wine region though, like you're saying Colorado is not known for wine.
I hope by the time I'm done, it is.
And Colorado wine has been around for 50 years.
Like a lot of people just didn't even know, even people in Colorado didn't even know that there's wine in Colorado.
And it's really hard to break into the wine industry because there's so much.
There's like, it's almost a stigma of if you're not from this specific place, you're not good.
And so we know, you know, California, you've probably know Washington and Oregon,
specifically those two for Pinot noir, which grows in all of those regions.
But it's all totally different.
I mean, the wine is totally different.
And when you plant a vineyard, you're waiting five years ish to even get a crop.
If it's red wine, you're not selling any for, you know, seven to eight years.
So.
Wine being around in Colorado for 50 years is nothing like it's so young
because that first vineyard had to get planted, had to produce,
had to succeed, had to make good wine.
And then other wineries after that had to be like, oh, yeah, sure.
Or other people, crazy people at that time had to plant grapes and then wait their time.
And with each variety, there's that much time waiting to see if it even works.
So even now at 50 years old of a wine, general wine growing region and my,
I think wine was first planted in around Peonia in the 90s.
So it's only 30 years old of experimentation.
But it's like, it just takes so long to establish and then to grow within the market
and get that reputation for good wine.
So it's going to take a while for Colorado wine to be known.
But I think Coloradans generally have a ton of pride in their state.
And Colorado was like the, I mean, it's not this, I don't know if it is necessarily,
but it's like the craft beer capital of the world.
And there's so many craft breweries.
Everyone wants to drink Colorado beer.
And it's, you know, it's different beverages.
You drink a beer after going skiing in the mountains and everything.
But I think that people really want to connect to their food and wine is a great way to do that.
I mean, as you're saying, like get to know your vent and air, get to know your rancher,
because these industries and like a lot of industries are a little bit shady.
I mean, ranching, the meat can hide behind certain labels that you don't really know what they mean.
And put them in the grocery store, USDA prime doesn't even mean that animal ever touched American soil
while it was alive. Wine is regulated by the TTB, which means that they don't require an ingredients list on it.
So like people ask me if my wine is vegan.
And at first I was like, I didn't really know anything at first.
So like at first I was like, but yeah, of course I don't add anything.
I mean, do you count yeast as yeast cells as animals?
But there's, you know, there's animal products that are added to wine.
It's like, it's just this, there's so much shadiness to it that people want clarity.
And then there's fear.
There's the like, entrenched status part of wine where it's like, oh yeah, I broke out this really expensive bottle and, you know, I'm cool now.
It's just like, it's this industry that if you can just like get real, people really enjoy it because there's so much fakeness in it.
And a lot of the first thing so many people come up to me or like, they're like, what do you do?
I tell them I make wine.
The first thing people say is, oh, I don't know anything about wine.
I just got to laugh at this point of like, I don't care.
If I give you a glass of wine, all I care about is do you enjoy it?
You don't have to make up words or anything or like, tell me anything about it.
If you enjoy the wine, and especially if you don't feel bad after drinking it, it's a great wine.
Who cares?
Like a fine wine, Bitcoin gets better with age.
And if you want to keep your Bitcoin safe for the long haul, head to bitbox.swiss.
Slash Walker and use the promo code Walker for 5% off the Bitcoin only Bitbox 02 hardware wallet.
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So thank you.
I like that mentality.
It's like you don't have to use a million adjectives to describe the mouthfeel and to, you know, gargle it and spit it out to prove that you are, you know, somehow, you know, one of the anointed class of of
wine connoisseurs.
And, you know, I love hearing about the process behind it because I think that it's like it's always so fascinating to get these insights into industries like I, I love wine.
I know a little bit about wine.
I love drinking wine very much.
I love having wine with family and friends over a meal.
Like it brings people together, right?
And and it has for for many, many, many generations.
And I think that that's a beautiful thing.
I'd love to I'd love to touch a little bit on your Bitcoin preferred sign that you've you've displayed at farmers markets because you're talking about talking with different people, you know, people coming up to you and maybe they know a lot about wine, maybe they don't.
But you've also taken a little bit of a different angle than I think most wine makers, which is you accept Bitcoin for your wine.
At least, you know, either through, I know through DMs if they're ordering online, but then if you're selling it in person, you'll sell it in fiat or in Bitcoin, but you have a nice little sign that I've seen that is Bitcoin preferred.
Can you talk about that a little bit and just what are some of the reactions that you've seen to that, maybe from people who know something about wine but know nothing about Bitcoin.
So they're familiar with the wine, but then they see Bitcoin preferred and they're like, what is going on there?
Yeah, I will initially had Bitcoin accepted here and then I don't know, just seems kind of like passive and I want Bitcoin.
And so I just kind of wanted to take that extra stance.
So I don't know, I DMed or something crypto cloaks and asked him to make it.
And now I'm seeing that sign everywhere, which is really cool to see that spread because it's such a more powerful message to say like, yeah, accept your money versus like I prefer this money.
For my high quality product.
And I think it really goes back to what I'm looking to do with my business. Yeah, I want to stack sats.
That's like the ultimate goal of any business, whether they know it or not at this point.
And my long term goal is to like raise a family in my hometown and enjoy living here.
I live in a town of 2000 people.
There's a lot of good things going on here.
A lot of great food, a lot of great artists, great energy.
However, it's small and it needs a little kick.
And I also looking forward, I see large amounts of hyperinflation coming or just huge amounts of inflation cupping, the regular person getting rekt.
So that sign is for me wanting like a way to promote Bitcoin and educate my community. That's like, you know, it's not super overt just be known as the Bitcoin wine guy.
I'm two years into having Bitcoin preferred sign like it's not.
It's, I don't expect it to have made a huge difference at this point.
However, assuming the business can continue to have success, I want to leak my success with the business to Bitcoin as much as possible to get people to ask me about Bitcoin to learn about it and hopefully be prepared in the long run for a better future.
So it's this thing where incentives align where like, yeah, sure, if they get Bitcoin, they can afford my wine in the future, which is great.
But also, it brings vitality to my town and make sure my town isn't wrecked from inflation and I ultimately end up living in a better place.
So the incentives just align perfectly for me to use kind of my business success as a way to orange pill my community.
Going back to your real question though is it's kind of dependent on the market.
A lot of people will just say like, Oh, I don't know anything about that or they just say, Oh, Bitcoin preferred, huh? And then they're like kind of wince because they're like, Oh, I started the crypto conversation.
I don't want this guy to go like all over me because I have that one buddy that, you know, so ultimately my goal is to sell wine.
And if I have a little bit of time between customers and someone comes up and asks me about it, like, I'll help them download a lightning wallet and or a Bitcoin wallet help them like just educate them, send them to the right place to buy just whatever they need.
When I was in 2022 so that 2022 was the year that it was all down.
That was my first year selling, promoting my sales of wine for Bitcoin.
When I first started, I didn't even have a lightning wallet. Like it was a great educational process for me as far as getting myself dialed, getting like learning how to do commerce and Bitcoin.
It's a little clunky because it doesn't really work with my fiat systems and like the reason I have, I have to have people DM me for Bitcoin sales right now is just because I don't have the capability to directly accept Bitcoin with compliance.
I'm working on a solution to this. So hopefully something fixes in the future.
But it was a lot of a lot of boomers coming up to me being like, careful, son, you know, it's down 50%. I'm like, man, it's down 70% dude and I'm still buying.
So it's a lot of ignorance.
There's a few people that are really curious. I would say that I don't directly orange pill people.
And I mean, there's no, I don't think there's really any way of doing that. I mean, it takes so much effort to learn about Bitcoin. Someone has to be really interested.
So I think my role is more to just be a touchpoint. They're like, Oh, yeah, Bitcoin preferred there. Wow, that's a strong stance, which makes them think about it a tiny bit more and then makes them associate it with a positive brand as opposed to anything that they're being sold by
the legacy media that is negative. So it's really just, it's this small thing that in the long run, I think will play a large role, but it's not a ton.
My response when someone asks, why do you prefer Bitcoin is I just say I prefer its monetary policy, which goes over most people's heads somehow.
But it'll come.
I like that though and I couldn't agree more on the touchpoints because, you know, we, and I'm guilty of this as well, you know, speaking in terms of orange pilling people.
And like, as if it's, and sometimes it is like, what one conversation is just completely changes but usually that conversation that changes everything for someone comes after many prior touchpoints that they were either
consciously or subconsciously aware of. And so it's those little things that add up like I had heard about Bitcoin a number of times for more years than I'd like to admit before I actually started buying Bitcoin in 2020 like it took way more time than it should have
to be to finally say, huh, okay, I need to actually look into this deeper. But see, I think that those, you know, it may be a small thing to have that sign that says Bitcoin preferred but I like what you said about the active versus passive stance on it's like no
actively I'm not just yeah I accept Bitcoin, but I prefer Bitcoin. I would rather have Bitcoin than your fiat like that is a very like your you're putting it out there that look, this is my personal preference, you can ask me about it if you want, but that's going to stick in
people's heads like huh Bitcoin preferred because maybe they've seen a Bitcoin accepted here sign before who knows. But either way that's going to that's going to stick in there it's going to be more sticky in their brain to say, you know I remember that guy got some of his wine I
really liked it. He said he preferred Bitcoin, like what's why. And like as long as you can get them to start thinking and asking that question like that's just one more stepping stone that journey so honestly like I, I love the Bitcoin preferred thing I think it's, we should tear
down all the Bitcoin accepted here signs and put Bitcoin preferred. So in addition to that, yeah, it does a couple things so a lot of, I mean just people find out I'm at these markets from Twitter and Bitcoiners are just sometimes happen to roll through and you know I'm so excited to see
them up and talking to like the odd Aspen people all day and like a bit coiner comes up I'm you know, give them all the time I can, and it bakes my day and so that creating a little bit more going on people, you know they see sales other vendors see those sales coming in and sometimes
they ask me, and I helped them a bit, you know I've helped a number of them get lightning wallets but ultimately like, if you aren't a bit coiner, you're not as well, a bit coiners not as likely to like spend their Bitcoin there it's like I want to support this person's
knowledge not like, give them Bitcoin that they're going to convert to fiat so it's a slow role in getting other vendors going but like as more success comes as they start seeing number go up maybe they they want in on that too so that slow roll to is, I love
people ask if I'll, what about those what about either whatever and I can just be like the toxic maximalist and say, Nope, I don't want that. And anything I can do to separate Bitcoin and crypto. As far as like my preference when I'm talking about Bitcoin I'm talking about Bitcoin
using language that specifically does not say crypto at all I think of those two things completely different. And so that's just an additional touch point in there of Bitcoin not crypto that allows that gets to come up occasionally probably hurts my wine sale sometimes
just like a flat kind of asshole No but whatever. You know, I think it's it's very cool to because like for the uninitiated let's say for the person who does not own any Bitcoin has not really looked into Bitcoin just knows what they have read via the mainstream media.
They, when they hear, you know, even about a Bitcoin business or something. First of all, maybe they haven't even heard about Bitcoin businesses they like just I don't even know what they view it as just some, you know, Ponzi scheme tool at mania whatever the messaging is getting a little bit better.
Much to Elizabeth Warren chagrin I'm sure but they don't expect there to be a guy selling wine made in Colorado with this great story they don't expect that guy to be like oh yeah, you know, I'm a Bitcoin preferred business.
I think that that alone probably turns a lot of like turns things on their heads a little bit like oh, so wait this is like not just something for these, you know, shadowy super coders and tech nerds, or traders.
Like something that you can use as money in your business like you're accepting it because it's money. And I think that that is like it's a very simple, seemingly small thing but I think that's really important, like more and more.
You know, and I love to spend Bitcoin, like I love to stack Bitcoin and save Bitcoin. That is my savings vehicle but I love to spend Bitcoin, because first of all, I'm just going to spend and replace. Like, you know, that's not a big deal.
I just spent some Bitcoin on some product or service I want great I'll buy some more to make up for that, you know, by a little extra just so that my stack can go up by a few extra sats.
You know, I do you have a like a message to those Bitcoiners who may say like well I'm never I'm never spending my Bitcoin like I'm, you know, I'm only stacking and and hodling and you know what you're not going to get me to part with my Bitcoin for anything.
Like, do you do you have a message for them is as somebody who is like making a low time preference proof of work product and prefers Bitcoin for it. What's like your message to the to the initiated Bitcoiners who say, I don't ever want to spend my Bitcoin on anything.
I mean, I don't. I mean, I'm not going to I'm not going to hear it. Like financial advice to anyone and spending your Bitcoin is is a is a move I mean, I think if you're, if you want to work around strike offers a great way to spend dollars and I receive Bitcoin and I think those tools will continue to grow.
So I I push that solution if there's others I'd love to hear them. But I get it. I mean, my one of a lot of times a Bitcoin or come up to be in me like, Oh, sorry, dude, all my Bitcoins and cold storage and I'm like, amazing, like that's that's so great.
I'm so happy for you like awesome. We're all going to win. But the reason I also I'm like you I like to spend Bitcoin. And part of that is, I'd receive Bitcoin I know how good it feels to get paid for your work in Bitcoin it's ridiculous.
There's a reason I take so much more time to Bitcoiners when they come up to my stand. And so I want to spread that love but additionally, I just think I want to support my community.
And that comes in two forms. I want to buy local as much as possible, because that money comes around goes around it's all kind of stays here and I want to selfishly live in a community that thrives and the best way to do that is spend my money in it.
And that additionally extends to Bitcoin so the two communities that I go out of my way by more expensive products or just specialize in buying is local communities and Bitcoin communities.
And I just make that value prop that's good for my life. And what I find is that the incentives align if I spend my money there.
And I do that very well and that makes Bitcoin do better and it all kind of comes around back to me. And, you know, you're not going to see it in a direct way. No one sees number go up by spinning their Bitcoin on my wine but like, I'm out here I guess spreading the good word of Bitcoin and the more Bitcoin I get the better I can do that.
But like, I get it man, don't spend your Bitcoin, save your Bitcoin and if you feel like if you feel like it great. I'm never going to shame anyone for wanting to not spend their Bitcoin.
I was trying to beat you a little bit there you know just think.
But if you are going to spend your Bitcoin give it to me.
Yeah. Can I can I ask just because you mentioned strike and I agree they've got a really nice solution for that. Is that what you use for conduct like if somebody wants to pay you in Bitcoin. Are you using strikes service are you using something else or you're just using a you know, like a lightning wallet like
Phoenix or something else or can I ask like what what do you use because I think that maybe there's other people out there who want to start accepting Bitcoin for their goods and services, but maybe haven't taken the plunge because they're like I don't really know which one of these options is good for me.
So like what's been your experience with that and what do you prefer to actually use.
I don't have a perfect answer for anyone and I can just say what I've used kind of positives and negatives.
I've used strike to accept Bitcoin I mean I've used like custodial lightning wallets I think that's super easy.
The downside is really only that it's KYC and so you can use a non KYC wallet and then you know you got your stack in non KYC stats. That's awesome recorded as a cash transaction so you pay the you know the right sales tax and everything on there.
I'd like to see something that integrates with my like point of sale, because a lot of I mean most. Most of my sales are in fiat, and I'm going to book keep in fiat and then you know I got just got Bitcoin off to the side.
I don't want to touch that stack. Generally and then I have a little bit for spending, but I've x pay offers a pretty good solution for point of sale if you have employees, because I'm doing most of my sales myself, and so I can just have my wallet and boom done.
But if you have employees I think I've x pay offers a pretty good solution I think they're Zeus might offer a POS as well I really haven't messed around too much.
But what I've x does that I liked but it didn't quite work for me, based on volume was you would receive as many lightning transactions, and like all of them in one day, they wouldn't go to your wallet.
And then at the end of the day, you'd get one UTXO sent to whatever wallet you wanted on. So if you're doing a bunch of lightning transactions that's great you've been it just, you know, one base chain UTXO every day.
I was, unfortunately, like, you know, I get like a couple of day, and at lower Bitcoin prices fine you know that's not a horrible UTXO but as Bitcoin goes up and you know the size just gets smaller and smaller and smaller so it's not.
And if I had some customizability there be better but I think it's all growing I mean I hear I keep hearing things with with cash happen square I don't, I can't really say anything but I think stuff is coming there.
And it's really the, the, the tough part is just the integration to your fiat system. And there's, I don't know of a work around I would love to know a work around to implement everything.
But at the same time, like, if you're solo like me just accepted to your wallet and it's, it's pretty easy.
No, it's, because I've looked into some of the merchant solutions in decent detail and I know Ibex has a really, a really nice one and what you were I think mentioning earlier is like they're receive only mode that you can put on if you have an employee who you want you know you don't want to be able to send
Bitcoin out but they can receive it as a point of sale, which is really nice.
And I know strike now has that that whole like merchant or strike like commerce API suite that they've been rolling out.
It's pretty cool to see cash app have this capability like the fact that they've actually like, they are a huge huge provider like there are so many people that use cash app.
And they're one of those tools that is probably going to help and already has orange pill a lot of people, because if you already have cash up and then you look at that tab and you see oh wait there's this, there's this Bitcoin tab on here and
specifically just Bitcoin.
Yeah, yeah. And that like that's beautiful. And they so they make that pretty easy and like people are already used to their interface that's that's really nice but I appreciate the context there I mean, and so for anyone listening to this if you've got a good
suggestion for how to kind of handle the bookkeeping on both sides because you're basically trying to make sure okay. How do I keep track of all my cost basis for this because if you want to do it, you know by the book, like you've got to make sure
okay what was the like the fiat value of this so that I can make sure I'm you know reporting it right for taxes or whatever.
Yeah, you know so the government can take their cut.
And the question is also like very different than what most people have. I think most people have a much easier way of keeping everything together. Since alcohol is a regulated item.
I have to go through a very specific compliance company to be able to sell to be compliant in all the states that I want to sell to. And as much as I've tried, they are not going to implement Bitcoin.
My goal. Yeah I want to orange pill normal people and get everyone on board but like, I think I'm starting to think more and more about the other wineries in my area that I could get to ask those compliance systems about Bitcoin and there those are the people that are directly going to see what I'm
doing and how I'm succeeding because like talking to them they they're all kind of stuck in this mindset of Colorado wine, like we're talking about like oh yeah no one knows about it you know we're trying like work these different words and I'm like man,
I'm going to ship and wine all over the country like people love my wine. They love that it's from Colorado and you know I found my group and so I'm like, especially for my size I'm doing a lot more direct consumer sales than a lot of these bigger wineries.
Thanks to Bitcoin and Bitcoiners and I think that they'll be the first ones to kind of see that direct correlation because I talk about it I have Bitcoin logo on my wine.
They ask me about it I tell them like on Twitter they're all on Instagram.
It's, I think, I'm hoping they see it first because then that opens the door for me to more directly and better accept Bitcoin for my online sales. So hopefully that comes around.
But right now I'm the only winery asking this company to allow Bitcoin sales so it's going nowhere.
You know, it's a good point about just like there are different layers of orange pilling effectiveness in the commercial space right.
And when you have a gatekeeper like that who for regulatory reasons because you're dealing with alcohol, you need to use them that they are just that like they are a gatekeeper who can stop you know they just don't have to work with, you know, have any sort of, you know, a Bitcoin
compatibility in terms of how they handle all of that compliance work. But it's like if you're able to bring somebody like that, you know, on board or at least bring somebody in their staff on board you know, to be like, huh, you know, maybe we should do this like, you know,
why not? All of a sudden every every small one or at least because every small one or uses this company will be able to accept Bitcoin. So that would be massive. That would be so cool. But it's it's probably a long ways out. Who knows. I mean, I get the emails of like, why would you want to accept Bitcoin it's used
for criminals and like the price fluctuates and stuff and like it just takes time.
Yeah. Well, good things like good wine take time right. I by the way, I don't know if we actually said the name of the wine so just for anyone watching the video you can see this it's PNELain for anybody listening, it's PNELain.
I'll include all of your links in the in the show notes and everything. But you know, I was just thinking like, do you think there's a bit of a almost a natural symbiosis with wine makers and having Bitcoin kind of on their, you know, their balance sheet.
Like holding it as an asset, because you as you talked about earlier, you have really long cycles for this, especially when you're getting going. And so if you're able you know if you're trying to save your excess cash flow in fiat, like to be prepared for the future.
That gets harder and harder as inflation grows and compounds year after year and those dollars by less and less. And you know, even like with a machinery you need or the supplies you need whatever, all that stuff should be getting cheaper because technology is deflationary but sadly it keeps getting
more expensive. So if you're not able to grow your purchasing power over the long term, and you have to operate in the long term as a wine maker, like you're kind of up a creek with no canoe. And maybe that's why you see so many centralizing forces around you know, these big producers.
Do you think that there's a case to be made there for, you know, to your fellow winemakers like, Listen guys, like this is something that's going to allow you to keep operating into the future, and to weather the, you know, the seasonal ups and downs like you know,
things frost over like shit happens right like, you need something to be prepared for that fiat's not a great instrument to do that with a low time preference mentality.
Yeah, I think a lot of these people are continually investing in their business just because it takes so long to actually get to scale where they want to be. But you can buy more vineyards but at a certain point it's like, then you have so much wine to sell that you end up becoming a commodity wine in a
lot of ways unless you can build that brand. And if you build that brand like who cares how big you are you're going to sell all your wine. So, yeah, I mean, we know it's the best savings tool like what else are you going to do with your money.
And it is, I mean, it's great like I don't know that I'm the best test case because like, I got started and was all in on wine and then I found Bitcoin was like, Oh, I need to go all in on this and, you know, really have struggled financially, trying to go all in on
both wine just like it's a slow getting going and then now I'm finally aged and I think my business will really take off it's done well but like, I was just starting. And so now I have enough wine to like really grow.
Whereas with Bitcoin I'm buying like, as it's going major ups and downs and watching it go down all of 2022.
I'm not going to buy the bottom but like with what major cash flows I mean I've basically just been saving whatever people pay me in Bitcoin go straight keep stays in Bitcoin.
So as you're starting out I think with any business it's like, you know, you invest in the business like you're going to if the business is going to succeed you have to continually be investing in it.
And it's really once you get to a more mature stage that you can have those free cash flows and put them into Bitcoin. And I mean, realistically like people take those cash flows they put them into real estate or whatever it is and
sure, first house fine, you know more land to grow grapes fine but it does eventually just add more headaches so if you can keep things simple and you know focus on your core product and build your brand and not have to worry about your savings vehicle.
It's pretty nice. And the thing is though it's like, so I'm, I just spent a bunch of money on grapes to make wine in 2023 in the fall.
And I have to then throughout this year, build up a bunch of savings to do that again.
I would love to put that in Bitcoin but that's not the four year time horizon so I have to save some in fiat. And I also know that every dollar that I put in to making wine in 2023 is not going to pay off the amount of Bitcoin that I spent like,
I'm unlikely because I got to wait another two three years. Who knows, but I don't know it's a bit of a balancing is in terms of time preference but they're both so long that it's not like, I think though, it's a bit of a rambling answer but the wine industry is definitely like
incentivize to take more short term profits to air towards a more short term time preference because the market moves fast prices go up. Every, everything changes so often you need your money now you need to keep going now that I just it's really I think about like the Bitcoin
standard timeframe where it's like, you just slow down and build something with the right way. And that's hard to do when you're starting out it's I mean it's, it really just takes education on your money I mean that's why it's like,
I'm not trying to orange fill people any way like I don't ever go on the huge tangents, trying to explain Bitcoin anymore because it's really like, the only way I can orange fill you is if you see my success doing this and you want to emulate it.
And a lot of us could probably learn something from that approach, you know, it leading by example is a powerful thing and having people instead of trying to shove it down their throats which we think we all know from personal experience does not always go super yeah we all we all are, you know,
yeah, and no matter how persuasive you may be, if somebody's not at a place where they are ready to receive that message, again, you could deliver it perfectly without trying to shove it down their throat, and they could still just not be in a place where they're ready to hear it.
And sometimes you know, something that I think about a lot is just like, oftentimes you need some sort of a pain, some sort of that you need that personal pain point you know you need to have your bank restrict access or you need to have, you know, see that the government is sending out like for me it was like, I see the government
sending out all these stimulus checks with where is all that money coming from and what is that doing to the value of my money like, you need to have something that makes you stop and consider and sometimes what that may be is looking over the fence at somebody
and saying wow, you know, a lot of people are having a pretty hard time right now but this guy is doing really well in whatever his domain is. This guy prefers Bitcoin for his goods and services. Maybe there's something to that.
Maybe I need to look at that and so I think that that leading by example is like a ultimately it's probably the best long term way to orange pill people you know less trying to push it on them and more you know if you build it they will come type of thing or
at least come pay attention because yeah it's hard to get people to pay attention these days you know everybody shouted about all these problems but then they don't want to when you throw a solution out there it's like I don't want to hear about that I don't want to hear
about things like and then get super defensive so yeah really I mean my only goal is just to be an overt Bitcoin or as far as like that's who I am I'm a bit corner and when you're ready I know you'll come to me instead of going somewhere else because I'm going to send you to places that don't distract you with shit coins and give you like
an honest opinion of like look dude I bought the tops and I got I about got wrecked I about had to sell a bunch of Bitcoin at the bottom it was scary don't be like me like learn from my experience and I've got people like from random parts of my life reach out and I'm sure a lot of us have
I understand wanting to be and then on and not talk about Bitcoin I think that that's that's great and for a lot of people that's the best move I'm someone who isn't great about keeping his mouth shut and is going to wear his heart on his
sleeve so the only path I can really take is just going all in on what I believe and being a bit corner so hopefully people come to me and and ask for advice and I can help them whatever I can you know hopefully they get into it but like I also understand
because I was helping all my friends with Fiat finances like going over their house like once a week or something for lunch and getting them all to like the right credit cards the right bank accounts the right the right budgeting tools like let's dial in your Fiat finances and I've
got to know this how little people know about finance that Bitcoin is I got a tea like you got to know that baseline that I was teaching you before I found Bitcoin and then you got to find Bitcoin understand monetary policy it's a huge leap so it's just going to take time for the
average person and for I mean it took forever for me as well so as all I can do is hope they come to me when they want to learn I think a lot of us it's easy to forget how long it took each of us to come around to Bitcoin when we're trying to have those conversations with people and it's like
I mean some of you know I'm sure plenty of people were like the ones who the first time they heard about it were like yep I got it and those are the people who have been in Bitcoin for a very long time like and more power to him.
It wasn't me.
It's not most of us, you know, like nothing but respect for those people like I wish that I had that clarity immediately but most of us and most people won't and that's just the way it is and that's okay too.
Like it takes those touch points. I, you know, I want to ask you another thing speaking of open protocols. You, am I remembering correctly that you sold some wine via Noster like pretty early on.
Is that right?
Yeah last January.
Like a year ago. I think you were probably one of like the first like organized via Noster, you know, hard product sales that that happened. Can you talk about that a little bit because you've all you've been on Noster from, you know, pretty early on when people were finding out about it when it was coming up in the
more public consciousness obviously been the background for a while. But you were on there pretty early, you know, have you found that to be a pretty good avenues I know you're on Twitter mostly I think a P&E Lane has an Instagram account as well.
But obviously, Twitter has been big for you.
Are you seeing that with Noster as well and you know, how was that experience been.
Noster is so fun. I guess like I didn't, I'd heard about it a little bit but I'm pretty tech illiterate I would say.
As far as like understanding new things. Once, you know, once it works it works but like setting it up and everything, especially back then it was, I had no idea what I was doing and honestly like the protocols were crap.
And I went through like a few different I've been on like, where it's my main protocol, or sorry, not protocol my main Noster interface client. Yes, thank you.
I've been on like four or five or I've said this is the one I'm using this is the best I've ever seen. And the watching the growth, especially last January was ridiculous.
Everything was so quickly developing so I didn't really know about it and my now really good friend Jack Sweeney was living in Aspen as I was.
And we met up and went skiing and he just like gave me the whole like gave me the Noster purple pill. And that night, I called him he like got me set up, and I just started messing around and like this is cool.
And also like the incentive of being early to a new protocol as far as like wanting to build an audience and, and being there was so bright I mean it was so new I was in hindsight I'm really pissed that I missed Noster class of 2022 by like 13 days but class 2023 here, but
yeah, I think someone was asking how to buy one with Bitcoin I was just like zap this note this amount. And I'll send you the wine. And so I did a few of those. I can't say it's like something I have pursued super hard because it's just like, then you got a DM me your address and
it's a little easier for you for me to just send you a lightning invoice. And like with anything the alcohol compliant stuff means all the cool marketplace things on Noster are just like a little bit harder for me to implement.
But it's, I love Noster and I've gone through, I go through phases of using it more I mean, I would say, like, the positive side is every time I post I get zapped and you know, great.
That's awesome I'm making making sats for my ship posts but the downside is just it's a smaller network. And I think that the potential to go like quote unquote viral is harder, where like on Twitter I can post something and it gets picked up by the algorithm and goes to a completely
different community than what already knows me. Whereas with Noster I'm directly communicating with. I mean, it's the only community I know there is really the Bitcoin community. And that's definitely a larger part of it.
So I find that it's a little bit smaller of a circle, but I find a ton of value posting there and I've done some things where if it's something that I'm like not totally like ready to share with the wider audience I'll be like this is for Noster only,
I'm giving you a sneak peek of this, but, and it's just for you guys like I'm not going to post this here so I posted a couple sneak peeks of just process updates for my upcoming Satoshi's Reserve limited release 210 bottles of my best wine from 2021.
And I'll continue doing stuff like that. It's, it's kind of a play arena for me where a lot of times I like test an idea and put it on Noster and then tweak it and put it on Twitter or something.
Yeah, no, I just, you know, I love that you were like, you know, okay, this is going to be a little bit clunky but just zap zap this note and then you know DM me but this is your payment for wine.
That's, that was cool.
It's pretty rad. Like that's a it's neat. I mean you were are for sure the first person to sell wine through Noster. I mean, and I have to imagine you were one of the first to engage in physical, you know, commerce with physical items on Noster.
So you've got that nice little like, you know, little feather in your cap there to keep with you.
Well, I've got the sat so that's what really counts.
Exactly. Because that was that I mean January 2023 Bitcoin was so cheap like that wine is going to go down as like one of the most expensive bottles ever sold.
Seriously, I mean, it's it's a good point. I'm curious on your Satoshi reserve.
So, because I want to hear more about that 210 bottles. So that's an extremely limited run.
Are you I'm assuming you'll are you going to sell it through the site as you normally would another bottle. Are you going to do any sort of like pre release for that's like, you know, Bitcoin only accepted for this or are you thinking at all about how you want to do that launch.
I've been thinking a lot about this because I've been working on this project for three years like it's wine from 2021 I contracted to buy the grapes.
Exactly three years ago now. So, yeah, it's been a long time coming this bottle I've been wanting to do a specific Bitcoin bottle for a long time.
And I think the goal for this is kind of a test case of like what how do limited releases work for me.
I've had a few other like artists wanting to do different stuff and ultimately this is the first one I want to do.
It's like, just because it's completely my and tested out and then I want to do it as like as Bitcoin as possible.
It's limited run. Maybe I could get more money if I also accepted the app but at the same time like I want to just accept Bitcoin so I'll have a you'll have my normal store on my website and then I'll have a Bitcoin checkout place where you can.
I like this is all my website is currently being redesigned so to add all this to just make it better in general.
And so I have a specific Bitcoin checkout where you'll be able to buy a specific like pack of wine, not Satoshi's Reserve and then you'll be able to buy the Satoshi's Reserve and I don't plan on selling the Satoshi's Reserve for fiat at all plan right now.
And this is not set in stone but plan right now is to auction off the first 21 bottles so every bottle is going to be numbered signed by me. And if you want those lower numbers you can you can bid on them and then the rest will go up for sale on my normal site after that.
I'm just getting everything together finalizing the label working with a couple people in the copy and it's a really fun project because like with most of my wine I have like the Bitcoin be on there it's kind of subtle it's there if you want to notice that it's there but also like I sell the
non Bitcoiners I don't want to be like I'm a Bitcoin company it's going to be there it's a mark of quality in my eyes but I can't be so overtly Bitcoin that it turns them off. It's that subtle bit just like the Bitcoin preferred.
I'm just going to be on both my things my wine passion my Bitcoin passion and bring it all into one on a project that I've been working on for so long that I'm I'm so excited to release this and what wine it is is I just I variety agnostic I just went in and I tasted all my wines from 2021 before
I was just going and I decided that this barrel of Cabernet Sauvignon was the best barrel in my entire my entire stock so like all these barrels behind me it just tasted all of them found the best one and bottled it and 210 bottles is just such a perfect
bottle in a barrel so I'll have 90 bottles to drink to myself and not label and not release to the world or anything but just great because I get great wine but then yeah I just wanted to make it's like Bitcoin is the best money let me put out the best wine it's great that it happened.
This project first came about in 2021, which is 21 vintage 210 bottles of Satoshi's reserve so I'm really excited for it I'm going to do it all up make it really nice wood box, great packaging everything so.
I mean, I'm stoked I'm going to need to at least get one bottle, perhaps multiple because like that reserve I'm an almost feel feel bad drinking it you know but when I do drink it I'm going to savor the hell out of that.
The goal is to make it beautiful enough that you can have it as a display piece if you want with wine or without wine and also have the wine speak for itself and be really good.
I've had a few people that have started like collecting my wine as in like they think the value is going to go up over time being like buying a vintage that doesn't exist anymore betting on my success which is like pretty cool.
So this is much more going in that collector's mindset.
I mean, you know, again, you are like, I don't know what I mean, perhaps you do but are there any other wine makers who are like even accepting Bitcoin for payment.
Maybe tangentially like if they use cat like if you can pay in cash up you could technically pay in Bitcoin but they would just convert it to fiat but like do you know of any others that are actually like no I'm accepting Bitcoin.
So I posted about being like stacking more sats than all the other wine makers in the United States combined and a couple people responded with other options and if you search Bitcoin wine you get like this bottle that's like etched gold Bitcoin and then right next to it is a
like one bottle and a doge bottle all made by the same company so like cool do you really think that they're holding your sats or is that a company that like when I'm thinking about spending in my communities do I think that companies in my community, probably not plus like, what's
that wine who knows what's in that wine it's really just like goes to the shadiness of the wine world where you can bottle anything call it your own and put whatever label it's just a marketing opportunity.
I can think man I've seen those bottles people like Bitcoin influencers post that bottle all the time that they got that cool put it on your shelf but like, it's not.
It's not the same so and then someone sent me an article of someone who was these two winemakers in 2013 in California that we're looking to sell shares of their like big stakes in their winery like $100,000 per stake in Bitcoin because they wanted to promote using
Bitcoin that winery is no longer operational according to the site I mean they were selling parts of their winery for Bitcoin so like, they got $100,000 in Bitcoin and held it in 2013 like good for them and I wouldn't be running a bit I mean maybe I would because I like running a business but good for them.
And then there's a winemaker in British Columbia that I've met on Twitter named Woody that is a bit corner has a winery and a selling wine.
I'm not sure what his Bitcoin situation is for checkout and everything.
But he's a bit corner has a winery and is doing up in Canada.
He can't ship to the United States and I can't ship to Canada so rooting for each other.
I mean, gotta love those liquor laws right. That's just honestly like, that's a pain in the ass but like I guess that also goes back like it is really nice I saw that you just, I think you like just announced that you can now ship to New Jersey right.
It's like how many states can you ship to total, like if somebody's buying wine online. How many states are you approved in or whatever.
I believe I'm at 45. It's nice. I'm just like slowly adding more part of the situation as I was trying to change my compliance game because of the frustrating Bitcoin and the high fees but ultimately in back where I started.
So like no Utah, Alabama just became allowed so I'm working on that. And I think there's one other state that's dead definite no, but I can pretty much ship everywhere in the United States.
And it's just, it's this company that charges me 10% per sale. So like, as I, you know, I raise my prices to compensate for that or something and then they just end up making more money.
So that's really the issue is just the amount of fees that it takes to do that. And technically I'm not selling you wine.
This other company is and they're just acting as a third party. So like I'm their partner and fulfilling their wine sale.
Man, that's honestly like that's got to be fucking frustrating a little bit like 10% is a massive cut and that's literally just so that they handle the compliance side of things like so because they've got the license to ship and to handle.
They pay the taxes. Some of that is taxes within the state and some of that is fees for like payment, but 10% is a lot and then I paid sales tax in Colorado as well.
So it just adds up. And especially as my sales are growing, it's frustrating and being a bit corner, you know, like I complain about accepting having the issues with my accepting Bitcoin all the time and I try not to complain too much.
But basically all these amazing Bitcoiners like, dude, try this. And I'm like, well, sorry, can't. So it's just frustrating that I can't really take advantage of all the awesome Bitcoin tools that exist.
That is kind of a pain in the ass like that. It's just like, I mean, I guess for you, if you're selling it in person, like that's a that's a different story.
You know, like then it's like, okay, just you pull out your phone, they pull out theirs and you're good to go. But it's like, for those online sales, that's a large regulatory wrench in the gears, which is unfortunate.
I mean, you think that this company that's doing the middleman action would not mind taking Bitcoin as well because hell, like, that's they're still getting fees either way.
You know, they're going to keep charging you 10% or whatever. But that's, that's brutal, though. That's, that's a lot of feel.
Jack Mahler's DMs me and was like, how can I help? And I was like, well, can we talk to this company? And I couldn't even really get the company on the phone.
So it's just going to take time. It's frustrating being a bit corner and I mean, being on the front end of like, Bitcoin businesses and doing things to like spread Bitcoin when I can't really take advantage of all the awesome tools.
But and also like when Bitcoin or like you asked me great questions and when Bitcoiners come up and be like, what can I do? I'm like, I can't really help you because my situation is so different.
Wine is a is a whole different ballgame from like selling, you know, well, anything else. I guess tobacco would probably be the other one that falls in that category. I don't know if there are any Bitcoin tobacco companies.
But I'm guessing, guessing not. But no, I mean, it's, it's one of those the pains of being an early adopter for something too, right? Like you are on the forefront of this, like, it is going to get better.
I would hope that the regulatory environment in America gets a little bit better, but I'm not holding my breath for that, unfortunately.
But it's still cool to be able to like, I think I'm assuming that going forward conferences are going to be maybe even a bigger thing for you because now like, now people know you like you've been to a couple of conferences so far right where you've you've had your wine.
I was at Jackson Hole with you. That was awesome. Like the response that I saw from people like, you know, you had hundreds of people there. Everyone had a glass of your wine in their hand. That's got to be like a pretty cool thing to see.
That was cool.
When you're actually there like in person, like, I don't know. It was cool for me to watch and I love drinking it. So hey,
well that especially was really cool because when I'm talking about my communities, I'm really into skiing and going to a ski and Bitcoin conference and serve my wine to all these people that I've listened to on podcasts for years and got me into Bitcoin seeing
and I saw Jeff Booth walk out of the place with a bottle of my wine and I was just I was kind of freaking out because Jeff Booth is the guy who listening to him with Robert Breedlove working in my vineyard.
And that was when the deflationary thesis like future of technology clicked for me and that was like the final nail in the coffin that I was working on with Bitcoin, the major one. That was my aha moment was Jeff Booth in my ears so seeing him walk out with a bottle was just like,
ridiculous for me. And really like, I mean, it's all this like, I love meeting people that are into Bitcoin and being able to have like, great conversations with them is incredible because they're people that are super forward thinking and positive about the state of the
world and that's just refreshing especially compared to most people especially and being able to do that with a glass of my wine in their hand is is so fulfilling. So yeah I want to do more of that. I also like love any sort of public speaking and doing that so I'm just, I'd love to get more into that as well
but the ultimate goal is just selling wine and hearing about people enjoying it.
And I think, you know, and first of all, it's got to be pretty surreal. And I think there's a lot of us who, for Jeff Booth specifically like reading the price of tomorrow for me was a huge aha moment, because you're like, Oh wait, technology is naturally deflationary.
Why aren't things getting cheaper and you're like, it's so simple how did I not think of this before and it's like well because you're not Jeff Booth.
But you know, like once he says it you're like like the best ideas are obvious in retrospect right. But until somebody says it you're like, it doesn't occur to you, but once it's in your brain you cannot possibly forget it so like, it's amazing like to hear about those experiences for you and I'm, I think that I mean,
Bitcoin businesses like that are not where you are not a I should clarify not like a Bitcoin technology company you're not a Bitcoin business that's building services like you are a business that is accepting Bitcoin and holding Bitcoin.
I think that there's so much room for knowledge share and, and kind of collaboration between businesses like your own, and any sort of Bitcoin technology company that's trying to build, you know, point of sale solutions that's trying to figure out how to make, you know, there's going to be
Bitcoin companies that are working on these compliance aspects of things to like okay how do we make sure that we make a really easy tool for people who are selling wine, or other goods that require certain levels of regulatory compliance to be able to take Bitcoin and not have to worry about it
so they can focus on their craft, like, there's so much room and like that's the beautiful thing about the Bitcoin space too is like, people are willing to talk to you they're willing to work with you and like, these are real problems that you as a business are trying to deal with and you're trying to deal
with them while using Bitcoin. And like, I mean, it's a it's a nice thing that like Twitter and no store exists where you can just like put out some questions and be like hey what's a, what's a good way to fix this and I know that your situation is a little more complex than the average one, but I'm bullish on Bitcoiners figuring out ways to do things better.
Yeah. And we're all in this together like the, anytime I have a problem. I have so much help. Everyone wants to see my business but really just Bitcoin businesses succeed.
And what I like to discuss with other companies is like, how can I be a normal company. That's also a Bitcoin company, and trying to like land both planes there. And it's like, I just kind of want Bitcoin on a label to be a bit of a mark of quality, where you know, I mean, it'll get
guys, whatever. But if I see Bitcoin on something I'm probably more likely to buy it. And if I'm not a Bitcoiner, and I see Bitcoin on something, I'll probably just be like the girls who walk by my stand nudge each other and be like, Oh look Bitcoin we should tell your
future. So like, it still catches people's eyes and you don't have to be overt to really still capture the essence of it. So I see like a lot of companies starting that are like Bitcoin first. This is a Bitcoin product and that's great. I want that.
And I'm definitely going to support it but I think there's room to do both and not pigeon your whole pigeon your whole yourself into just the Bitcoin audience because like, yeah, my Twitter is a lot of Bitcoiners but it's also a lot of people that just want healthy natural
wine. And maybe then I tweet about Bitcoin they follow me and they figure out Bitcoin after that or they drink my wine and they see the Bitcoin bottle the Bitcoin be on there and get curious so I don't want to turn off anyone who's interested in good wine a good
product. Just because of Bitcoin, where they're at in their journey. I think you can kind of do both. And that's, that's really fun for me seeing all the other Bitcoin businesses grow up. Especially, I mean just having been around for a couple years now there's so
cool companies that are marketing the Bitcoiners and making high quality products because it's like no one's going to spend their sats on your product if it's not super high quality. So that's just like whenever someone pays me with Bitcoin, I know they really value my product
otherwise they wouldn't pay me with Bitcoin and that feels great and makes me want to continue to do that makes me want to continue just I mean I'm going to keep supporting Bitcoin whatever but like it's a it's a virtuous cycle.
I think that that's such an important point. And, and something that Preston Pish has talked about at length is the idea that going forward. If you are not a net producer, producing value, any Bitcoin you have is going to slowly or quickly leave your
market and flow to the net producers. You as somebody who is creating a low time preference, high quality product are a net producer, you are creating something that people want. And if they're willing, as you said, willing to spend their Bitcoin on it.
That means they really value it. And like that's a, that's a powerful thing. And I hope we see Bitcoin continue to encourage more people to do things in the quote, you know, the right way, meaning do them with integrity do them honestly try to do them if you're
a food product or a beverage in a healthy way. Like, that's a great systemic change that can happen that we need a lot more of because there is so much fiat food and fiat wine and fiat mentality in this world.
The more that Bitcoin creeps into each corner I think of the economy and of just people's interactions like that's a net positive for humanity. And that's something to be hopeful about.
And I didn't know about time preference until Bitcoin that was not a word that was in my lexicon. And since learning about it. I think it's always been something I'm interested in I would not be in wine if I if that wasn't like just kind of an innate thing for me.
But now that I understand it now that I see it it's crept into every part of my life. And I'm so much more healthier. Just feel like living life with such a deeper appreciation for the future and really worrying about the effects of any short term
moment. Any little decision I do in the short term is like how it's it's really about what's going to matter in the long term. And that's led me to want to produce the highest quality wine not take any shortcuts, but also like in relationships
in food and everything in my life it's it's building for the long term and great then cool but like I think that's something that just kind of happens to a lot of people when you start figuring out that I can actually save money for the future.
And you start investing your time to be able to enjoy that future. So you just kind of take a lower time preference you do things better you create better relationships you eat better food. And if we see that on a larger scale, like just the case study of other
Bitcoiners like me, that's an awesome world. And that's why I'm investing so much in in law. I'm not I guess it's really just like I value so much of being a Bitcoin or in my community because I've just looking at myself, I've changed so much in the last four years
I've found Bitcoin and you know that's growing up that's finding a business there's other things in my life but through the lens of learning about Bitcoin was such an important factor in that that if other people can just go down that like a tiny bit and just have a slightly lower time preference
and the ability to save like the world just gets so much better that I was want that for for everyone and that's that's why I'm not a Twitter and on and spreading Bitcoin loud.
Well man, I don't know how to follow that one. So I think it's a good place to start to wrap things up because like Bitcoin your time is scarce.
And so I want to thank you for coming on here. Where should people go to find your fantastic P&E lane wine which I have almost made it to the bottom of this bottle of over here.
I'll link everything but if you just want to tell folks for those that are too lazy to go in the show notes.
You're doing great work over there.
Pushing off that bottle.
You can follow me on Twitter at Ben Justman. I also have at P&E lane on Twitter and Instagram and YouTube.
P&E lane wine.com that's P E O in why lane wine.com is my website I shipped to, like I said, almost all states.
There's a few that I just have to work a different back end. So if you have issues or you want to buy with Bitcoin just DM me and hopefully I'll have a solution for that in the near future directly on my website.
Plan is to release the Satoshi's Reserve definitely before the having would be really cool to see people drinking it for their having some celebrations but I also understand wanting to hold on to it.
So just an exciting time to be in Bitcoin exciting time to be making wine.
I love it man. Well, thanks so much for coming on here. It was great to talk about wine while drinking your wine.
Just fantastic and yeah, I highly recommend folks go and grab yourself a bottle or six like I did because you know one wasn't going to be quite enough.
And yeah, man, thanks for coming on. Again, Bitcoin is scarce but Bitcoin podcasts are very abundant. So thank you for sharing your scarce time to come on another fucking Bitcoin podcast. I appreciate it man and I hope to see you in the flesh to have a nice glass or bottle or two of your wine in the future.
Yeah, we'll see you in Nashville probably I've got some cool events cooking up so can't wait.
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast. If you are a Bitcoin only company interested in sponsoring another fucking Bitcoin podcast, head to Bitcoin podcast.net or hit me up on social media.
On noster head to primal net slash Walker and on Twitter search for at Walker America or at TTC podcast. You can also watch the video version of this show on X or on YouTube by going to YouTube.com slash at Walker America or rumble by searching for at Walker America.
Bitcoin is scarce. There will only ever be 21 million. But Bitcoin podcasts are abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time to listen to another fucking Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.