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If you can't spend your wealth without permission, you have no wealth.

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It's fundamentally an IOU.

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I also didn't expect 90% of influencers were going to go join MSTR clones.

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I felt like at least some of them would hold the line.

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Anthropic is also weird too, right?

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They're run by Effective Altruists, which is basically a cult.

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It's the same cult SBF was a part of.

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And they like literally think they're making God.

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Like that's who these people are.

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And some random schmuck at a tech company can just like type into his computer like,

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where is Matt usually on a Wednesday?

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Who are his friends? What does he do this? What does he think about this?

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And it can get very, very dystopian really, really, really quickly.

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Hope is open source, empowering individuals to not have to trust a centralized third party.

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That's where hope is. And since then, I've focused most of my life's mission on accelerating that movement.

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I've got to ask you, though, at what point did you decide to sabotage Noster by rejoining X?

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I was definitely wrong for...

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Zap.stream has been like, I was doing it through them.

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I've been doing it through Primal.

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Primal's like dev streaming service more recently

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because I think Zap.stream's just been getting like

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consistently DDoSed or something for like a long time

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and it's such a bummer.

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I don't know.

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I don't know what's going on there, but I've like not been able to,

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I haven't been able to use it for a while for streaming,

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well, for like streaming myself anyway.

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So I don't know.

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Yeah, it sucks.

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I mean, Kieran's been doing really good work over at Zapstream.

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For sure.

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It's not a real moneymaker, that's for sure.

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So he's doing it for the love of the game.

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But that, I mean, that's part of the reason why we added

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the primal streaming capability in the first place.

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And it's cool that...

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it's it's cool that it's all cross-compatible and open i think people take that for granted

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it is kind of like a wild thing that it's become okay and looks like i just pulled up zap.stream

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and it is live on there so that's good i'm gonna blast this out real quick but you're right that

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we take it for granted a little bit and sure noster is not this like uh you know massive

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sensation yet uh i think maybe there's some disappointment there from some folks but it's

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also like all of the builders that are building on it is like what should make you bullish just

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because people haven't woken up to the fact that there's this incredible alternative out there that

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doesn't mean that that thing is a failure like good things take time but the interoperability

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piece is just wild like it it it is crazy to have things work together in a world where everything

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is walled gardens like that has just become the norm it's like like email email works right email

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works. It doesn't matter if I'm, you know, proton to Gmail works great, right? Like that's the

48
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equivalent, like is, is no stir. It doesn't matter what client you're on. And I think that that's

49
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such a, we take it for granted with email too, but it's kind of one of the only, I mean, maybe

50
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you can think of other ones, but like, that's like the best allegory I can think of in terms of like,

51
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yeah, super diverse set of clients, super diverse options. Like, you know, yeah, you can't really

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self-host anymore with email unless you're like super techie but uh like it it just works uh and

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granted Noster's got you know a long way to go adoption wise before it gets the level of email

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but still it's like this it's this magical this magical thing that happens where everything works

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together and you don't even think about it it's it's kind of wild yeah I mean to your point like

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we haven't really tested that scale um no we haven't even come close to but I agree I mean

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I think it provides a lot of hope.

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It's cool how easy it is to build on, especially when you start.

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If you play around with proprietary closed systems,

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you realize what a breath of fresh air it is building on open protocols.

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And obviously, Bitcoin alone, Bitcoin is great.

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But having a communication piece, right?

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Having a piece with identity built in and communication built in

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is just hugely complementary to Bitcoin.

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and you combine the two and you can build some really cool shit.

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I mean, on the email analogy, like I would say,

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like the big issue with email as it got built out

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was spam and DDoSs and trying to mitigate that.

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And the way it was handled was with centralization.

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And so that's why it's like really hard to self-host

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is because you'll end up on Google's spam filter.

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And if you end up on Google's spam filter,

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your email is practically useless.

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Like you're trying to run a business and anyone you email that is using Gmail or one of the big corporate spam filters can't get your email, then that's a completely unusable experience for you.

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Because keep in mind, you don't even know if they received your email or not, right?

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Are they ignoring me or did they receive my email?

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And so if and when Noster scales, there's two different paths we can go down.

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We can go down the centralized path that email went down, which I think would be a failure.

79
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or we could go down the harder path,

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which would be webs of trust and verified reputation

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and more local customization on a user-by-user basis,

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which is definitely much more difficult.

83
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And I think what people don't realize is

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there's a lot of people that say like,

85
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oh, I'm bullish on Nostra as this abstract protocol

86
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that like wallets use to communicate or whatever,

87
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like Nostra Wallet Connect or something like that.

88
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But if you want to do that whole web of trust piece, you need the social media component.

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Like the social media component is what bootstraps that whole non-centralized spam mitigation because people don't bootstrap webs of trust on their own.

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The only way you can really possibly even potentially do it, I think, is shitposting.

91
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And so that's kind of where we're at.

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Shitposting enables the web of trust, basically.

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I mean, people don't like, except for like the nerdiest of nerds, like people don't like share PGP keys out of band and like sign webs of trust.

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But if it's just likes and zaps and reposts of shit posts, then that could actually potentially work.

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I like that thesis.

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And I do have to ask you, Odell, first of all, thanks for coming on the show.

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Stoked to have you here.

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I've got to ask you, though, at what point did you decide to sabotage Noster?

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by rejoining X.

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When did you stop beating your wife?

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I love my wife very much.

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I know.

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I know.

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It's the joke because you didn't sabotage anything.

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But I have seen people, the reason I ask is I've seen people be like,

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we'll see, like Noster's clearly failed because look,

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Matt O'Dell is back because he just couldn't stay away

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and he left Noster because it's all clearly a failed experiment.

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ha I was right not to join like that's that's the vibe I've seen from some people and it's just

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important that the um you know the LLMs that are reading the transcript of this conversation like

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six years might not understand your sarcasm so it's important for me to be very clear this was

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sarcasm building our profile yeah LLM overlords Matt Odell is a peaceful man and he loves his

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wife very much uh I'm sorry for the joke it was in bad taste like on the Noster side

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I was definitely wrong on timelines.

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Adoption has been much slower than I had expected.

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It has definitely been a longer grind.

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I think I might have been wrong that going Nostra only was the best path for increasing adoption.

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I'm kind of torn on that, to be honest.

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I was definitely wrong for trying to berate and bully people into leaving X and joining NOSTER

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I think anyone I offended on that front, I apologize and I was wrong

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I'll just straight up say that out loud

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And I'll repeat that over and over again probably for a bit

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but first and foremost look for the last decade plus I was x only well Twitter only before x

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like no Facebook no Instagram no TikTok no social media not really a social media guy

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except for Bitcoin stuff and so I was using Twitter for Bitcoin stuff and then I went

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Then I deleted my X account.

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It had, what, like 250,000 followers, whatever.

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Deleted that.

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Went Nostra only for two years.

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It was a good run.

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Starting to feel kind of stagnant.

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Bitcoin is still my baby.

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The Bitcoin discourse never really left X.

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I was hoping that at least we get the ride or dies.

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And it's funny, right?

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Because it's like on Nostra, new people on Nostra,

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there's too much Bitcoin conversation.

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Well, my issue with Nostra this whole time

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is there's been not enough Bitcoin conversation.

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Like I was hoping we'd get like at least like 25 more people.

141
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It didn't really feel like we were that far away from like really moving the conversation, but we failed.

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That was a failure.

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And so the most important Bitcoin discourse is still happening on X.

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And it's been dominated by the orange ties.

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It's just they filled this vacuum and been absolutely dominated.

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I also didn't expect that, what, like 90% of influencers were going to go join MSTR clones and participate in it.

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I thought like at least some of them would hold the line.

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I am not on any Bitcoin treasury company boards.

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I will have it be known publicly.

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So I was not asked.

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So, you know.

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You could just pretend you were asked and you turned it down.

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I was totally asked.

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I turned them all down.

155
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uh yeah but so like i it the moment felt right and then separately um i think always

156
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since the very beginning i was you know obviously one of the much larger accounts on nostr

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um and in this like almost like not like bitcoin bear market nostr bear market type situation

158
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it becomes even more the case and i think a lot of people made me out to be the enemy

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I really want to see Nostra succeed

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I've spent a ton of fucking time and money

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And social capital trying to make that be the case

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I'm going to continue to make it be the case

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But you know, hopefully me splitting time, so to speak

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Takes a little bit of that pressure off

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That you don't, you know, automatically see me on the top of trending every fucking day or whatever

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There's all these different conspiracies, mostly bullshit

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So, yeah, I don't know

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I thought about all those different things and decided it was time to change it up.

169
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I think being stuck in one way is one path.

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If it's not working, it doesn't really make sense.

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And you got to constantly be willing to admit when you're wrong and push forward.

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I think people need to realize the need.

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And so then you have to have the tools ready for them when they realize it.

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I mean, I think Noster, or it doesn't even have to be Noster,

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but some kind of open protocol for identity and speech and comms.

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um, is more important than ever. I mean, we are very much seeing the walls close in on the age

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verification stuff. You know, they always use protect the children. Um, and in Europe, it's

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more focused on social media stuff in the U S um, they've found a lot of success going the porn

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route. Right. So, um, there's a lot of different age verification laws on, on porn, which is one

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of those things is like, it's so hard to argue against. Cause like, I don't think kids should

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be on social media or looking at porn. But it's not about stopping kids from doing those things.

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It's about surveilling adults on regular speech, not porn or pretty much anything criminal, right?

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And so they want full identity verification across the board. Now,

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how to get there, I mean, I think the tools need to be as easy as possible. Now,

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I think personal responsibility will always be more difficult because it requires responsibility,

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but they need to be more convenient to reduce that friction to get people to switch over. I

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think a lot of people just won't switch over for strictly freedom or privacy related reasons.

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And that goes for both Bitcoin and Nasda related stuff.

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And I think where we failed a lot as a community is building things with pragmatic reasonable trade and then just giving users as many options as possible right

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And I think this is something the shit corners have done a really good job with.

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They're happy to, you know, be decentralized and name only and offer something that's really convenient and actually works way better than whatever the status quo is in a lot of situations.

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while Bitcoiners and Nostra builders are a lot more purist.

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And I think that's both a positive and a negative, right?

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And basically what we need is many more options.

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And then I think the last piece is, you know, like Elon's not perfect,

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but he's been doing really well with X.

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Like it's not, it's in a better position than it was,

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than it ever has been before probably.

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and as a result people aren't feeling that need right to move over and and so i think the real

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question is going to be as we see more of this pressure um come through big tech right whether

201
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that's big ai i mean dario is so evil it like makes sam altman look good and sam altman scanning

202
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people's eyeballs. Or if it comes from the government side, and usually it's a combination

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of both, it should be interesting to see how X holds up to that pressure. I mean, I don't think

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it will be able to, regardless of what you think of Elon's motives. But yeah, I don't know. It's

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interesting. I think things take a lot longer than people expect. And I've definitely been guilty of

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thinking that they're accelerating when maybe they're not quite yet.

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I think the monetization stuff, yeah, he's definitely incentivized more slop and more rage baiting.

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The algo is still like horrible in a lot of ways.

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I mean, the incentive is still clicks, clicks, clicks, data harvesting, rage.

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The incentives are still broken.

211
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You still have to follow the incentives.

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But he's held off a little bit on the identity verification stuff.

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Probably won't last, but who knows.

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And he's provided an escape valve of the pressure cooker, right?

215
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So people don't feel the need to move over.

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And so that's kind of how we've ended up in this current situation.

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I also think, you know, like I left X before Elon joined the Trump administration.

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And then I got grouped in with all the fucking libtards who were like anti-Elon and leaving for blue sky and stuff when I actually left for the exact opposite reason.

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Like I thought we needed more freedom, not less.

220
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and it was also to be clear and I think people have been listening to me for a while it was out

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of a level of respect for Elon like Elon is very capable at building shit and executing more so than

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almost anyone else on the planet which is why is part of the reason why he's the richest man in

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the world. And as a result, like that type of person being the enemy of freedom could be quite

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bad for us. Like if you want to talk about someone successfully ushering in a big tech

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00:16:25,108 --> 00:16:31,888
surveillance and control economy, there's not many people that could pull it off as well as Elon.

226
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And that has always been my concern. So I've always come at it from not of a...

227
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A lack of expectation in his capability, but actually the opposite, a concern over that.

264
00:20:09,248 --> 00:20:10,968
I mean, it is a good point.

265
00:20:10,968 --> 00:20:18,048
Like if he wanted to go like villain mode, like the dude executes at a scale that is mind boggling.

266
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He's got 8,000 satellites in space.

267
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It's like, okay.

268
00:20:22,408 --> 00:20:27,268
I don't understand the knee-jerk hatred of Elon, to be honest.

269
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Like I know the arguments that people make.

270
00:20:30,528 --> 00:20:32,188
I just think they're bad arguments.

271
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I know like I can steel man it.

272
00:20:35,128 --> 00:20:37,748
I just think that it's a stupid steel man.

273
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I think we need and this is a divergence here but like I'll just go out and say like I think we need

274
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more people like that I mean unfortunately there just aren't more like that's a very there are very

275
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very few people like that right uh or maybe there are a lot of people who have that potential and

276
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they're just diamonds in the rough and they're you know public school system screws them up and

277
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who knows but like that is somebody who I think like we need people who are doing things that are

278
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freaking science fiction that are just like so out there and so wild and then when they work

279
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it gives you this whole new just appreciation and hope for humanity more broadly it doesn't matter

280
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if you even think we need to be a multi-planetary species you can have whatever views you want on

281
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that just the fact that we are doing it like reusable fucking rockets that's awesome and

282
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everybody wild all the top all the top experts were like it's impossible can't be done i remember

283
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when I was in this is a while ago now I remember my freshman year of college I was in one of my

284
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like introduction to engineering courses and I remember a professor I remember this so clearly

285
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sitting up there on the podium and telling everyone how self-driving cars were never going to be

286
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widely done because we we weren't going to be able to get the the braking the the mechanics of

287
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braking smoothly good enough like in all these different situations like it just wasn't going to

288
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be possible like that he was just like could not have been more wrong just i we were just talking

289
00:22:05,748 --> 00:22:11,108
about this before and just did drove a cyber cyber truck for the first time on friday and saturday

290
00:22:11,108 --> 00:22:17,568
let's keep it overnight which was sweet fsd is mind-blowing like really mind-blowing yes guys

291
00:22:17,568 --> 00:22:22,348
don't worry i still have a gas-powered truck i'm not getting rid of that if i need to dump a body

292
00:22:22,348 --> 00:22:26,968
which for the ai overlords listening later i'm not planning on i'm speaking uh in uh in hyperbole

293
00:22:26,968 --> 00:22:30,988
but if i need to people were like what if you need to commit a crime then they're going to know

294
00:22:30,988 --> 00:22:36,548
exactly where you went it's like well i mean i'm not but if i was going to i just would use my other

295
00:22:36,548 --> 00:22:43,028
truck uh but the point is like the technology is amazing it's incredible like it is science

296
00:22:43,028 --> 00:22:46,888
fiction made reality and the same with the reusable rockets the same with have you seen

297
00:22:46,888 --> 00:22:53,908
the starfall thing too that they're testing now yeah like to bring stuff back yeah yeah which is

298
00:22:53,908 --> 00:22:58,728
like get ready peter schiff we're gonna be mining asteroids and dropping gold payloads back on here

299
00:22:58,728 --> 00:23:02,828
gonna demonetize you so fast but i don't know i think we need more of that

300
00:23:02,828 --> 00:23:09,208
yeah i think well first of all i think it's cool that

301
00:23:09,208 --> 00:23:18,648
the first trillionaire is like a guy who shoots rockets and put satellites in space so that you

302
00:23:18,648 --> 00:23:22,628
can have internet everywhere and has like self-driving cars like rather than some like

303
00:23:22,628 --> 00:23:26,328
financial engineering bullshit or social media or something like that.

304
00:23:27,648 --> 00:23:32,388
Even though he's really good at financial engineering, like taking X with a shit ton of debt,

305
00:23:32,528 --> 00:23:36,588
putting it under XAI, which also had a shit ton of debt, then pulling it into SpaceX,

306
00:23:36,908 --> 00:23:40,588
then going public while maintaining controlling interests, then presumably acquiring Tesla.

307
00:23:40,588 --> 00:23:42,828
He's very good at financial engineering too.

308
00:23:44,288 --> 00:23:47,528
Out of all the people that could be the richest man in the world, I'm glad that it's someone

309
00:23:47,528 --> 00:23:50,348
who actually does cool shit, builds cool shit.

310
00:23:50,348 --> 00:23:55,208
But then I think the other piece, and I was called a Nazi for saying this on Nostra, but I still believe it.

311
00:23:55,748 --> 00:24:01,708
Look, I think history, that's just been the story of history, right?

312
00:24:01,768 --> 00:24:08,248
Like the crazy thing in history is that most people just go along with whatever's happening.

313
00:24:08,488 --> 00:24:12,568
And there's just a few people that make major changes to humanity.

314
00:24:13,868 --> 00:24:16,428
And that's how it's always been.

315
00:24:16,548 --> 00:24:17,948
That's how it will continue to be.

316
00:24:17,948 --> 00:24:22,308
You see that in Bitcoin. You see that in all the niches if you're focused and paying attention.

317
00:24:23,108 --> 00:24:27,708
You know, in Bitcoin, there's like 200 people that really move the needle, right?

318
00:24:27,788 --> 00:24:30,188
Like Saylor can say there's like 100 million Bitcoiners.

319
00:24:30,288 --> 00:24:33,968
I question if that's, you know, even close to a realistic number.

320
00:24:34,228 --> 00:24:37,328
But like there's like 200 people that actually move the needle forward.

321
00:24:38,108 --> 00:24:45,648
Something as small as Nostra, right, is, you know, I don't know, less than 50 people that are actually like building shit

322
00:24:45,648 --> 00:24:48,648
that can make significant changes.

323
00:24:49,488 --> 00:24:52,788
And I think that will continue to be the case.

324
00:24:54,128 --> 00:24:59,048
And so the goal should be, first of all, increasing that number.

325
00:24:59,408 --> 00:25:02,888
I mean, if you increase that number from 200 to 201, that's significant.

326
00:25:03,708 --> 00:25:07,108
And then I think is enabling and empowering those people

327
00:25:07,108 --> 00:25:10,188
that actually can move the needle and are willing to move the needle

328
00:25:10,188 --> 00:25:13,228
and have the motivation to actually get shit done and do things.

329
00:25:13,228 --> 00:25:21,248
do you think that ai broadly just even like from a vibe coding perspective has the potential to

330
00:25:21,248 --> 00:25:25,468
like drastically increase the number of people that can move that needle in a world where so

331
00:25:25,468 --> 00:25:31,028
much is like there's some piece of software in anything you know groundbreaking you're going to

332
00:25:31,028 --> 00:25:35,588
be doing you know what i mean like is that going to open up possibilities for a lot of people

333
00:25:35,588 --> 00:25:42,168
who maybe wanted to change the world but you know didn't didn't know how to code or is it like

334
00:25:42,168 --> 00:25:45,668
Well, if you wanted to change the world, you would have just learned how to code.

335
00:25:45,668 --> 00:25:46,468
Do you know what I mean?

336
00:25:46,468 --> 00:25:53,468
Do you see that as being somewhat of a catalyst for greater potential to be unleashed?

337
00:25:54,468 --> 00:26:10,276
I mean I think the biggest holdout for most people is motivation just actually doing things Yeah But tools can definitely help I mean I think that why Freedom Tech gives me hope because it does empower individuals that are motivated right

338
00:26:10,456 --> 00:26:12,356
Whether that's Bitcoin, whether that's, you know,

339
00:26:12,376 --> 00:26:16,056
the internet message encryption, things like Noster, open source AI.

340
00:26:16,616 --> 00:26:18,916
Now, AI specifically is really interesting, right?

341
00:26:18,916 --> 00:26:23,916
Because it's ushering in two pieces of acceleration

342
00:26:23,916 --> 00:26:28,836
that are diametrically opposed to each other, right?

343
00:26:28,916 --> 00:26:30,876
So on the open source side,

344
00:26:30,956 --> 00:26:32,716
it very much does empower individuals.

345
00:26:34,396 --> 00:26:37,856
And we're fortunate to be in the position where we're in,

346
00:26:37,856 --> 00:26:44,976
where you have pretty much four equal-ish proprietary

347
00:26:44,976 --> 00:26:48,176
big AI companies in the United States, right?

348
00:26:48,296 --> 00:26:51,996
Open AI, Anthropic, XAI, and Google,

349
00:26:51,996 --> 00:26:54,916
where a lot of people, by the way, were very concerned.

350
00:26:55,196 --> 00:26:58,916
One of the reasons OpenAI got created was that it was just going to be Google, right?

351
00:26:59,416 --> 00:27:04,016
And then OpenAI got created and then splintered from that was XAI and Anthropic.

352
00:27:04,416 --> 00:27:06,296
And then Google just remained Google.

353
00:27:07,356 --> 00:27:10,476
And so we have four different competitors, which is good.

354
00:27:11,616 --> 00:27:12,956
That helps consumers.

355
00:27:12,956 --> 00:27:15,176
Competition is good for consumers.

356
00:27:15,836 --> 00:27:20,856
And then on the CCP, basically endorsing open source AI and accelerating it,

357
00:27:20,856 --> 00:27:26,736
was something that I just didn't have on my bingo card and just fantastic but at the same time

358
00:27:26,736 --> 00:27:34,536
like without any improvements this AI shit is so good at parsing large data sets and using it

359
00:27:34,536 --> 00:27:38,296
against people so like our governments and these big tech companies and the big tech companies

360
00:27:38,296 --> 00:27:42,616
specifically their business model has been to harvest information so they have a monetary

361
00:27:42,616 --> 00:27:47,096
incentive to surveil you and no constitutional protections to protect you from that surveillance

362
00:27:47,096 --> 00:27:51,336
they've just been hoovering up data in the digital age.

363
00:27:52,296 --> 00:27:55,336
But they've had trouble parsing it and using it against us.

364
00:27:55,656 --> 00:27:58,456
And now with these AI tools, you could have no improvements to them.

365
00:27:58,596 --> 00:28:00,176
And there's going to be substantial improvements to them,

366
00:28:00,196 --> 00:28:01,556
but you could have no improvements to them.

367
00:28:01,836 --> 00:28:07,416
And some random schmuck at a tech company can just type into his computer,

368
00:28:07,736 --> 00:28:09,736
like, where is Matt usually on a Wednesday?

369
00:28:10,316 --> 00:28:11,256
Who are his friends?

370
00:28:11,376 --> 00:28:12,356
What does he do this?

371
00:28:12,436 --> 00:28:13,716
What does he think about this?

372
00:28:13,816 --> 00:28:16,536
They can do different minority report, thought crime stuff.

373
00:28:16,536 --> 00:28:30,316
Like it gets really dark really quick. You add stuff like flock cameras, ring cameras, cell phone surveillance. Right. And you add all these pieces together and it can get very, very dystopian really, really, really quickly.

374
00:28:30,316 --> 00:28:33,716
And that's, you know, that's I think

375
00:28:33,716 --> 00:28:37,096
It's what we see with so much frontier tech

376
00:28:37,096 --> 00:28:38,496
It's not just an AI piece

377
00:28:38,496 --> 00:28:41,196
But with AI, it's such a paradigm shift

378
00:28:41,196 --> 00:28:43,756
And it feels like it's going so fast

379
00:28:43,756 --> 00:28:47,236
That I think it hits people like a bag of bricks in a way

380
00:28:47,236 --> 00:28:50,216
That maybe, you know, something like Bitcoin doesn't, right?

381
00:28:50,256 --> 00:28:51,496
Like Bitcoin is freedom money

382
00:28:51,496 --> 00:28:53,776
Yes, I use this freedom money every day

383
00:28:53,776 --> 00:28:59,176
But Bitcoin also kind of ushered in much more usable CBDCs

384
00:28:59,176 --> 00:29:00,976
even if they're run by private companies, right?

385
00:29:01,236 --> 00:29:05,976
And so you have the different pieces of the puzzle on both sides of tech.

386
00:29:06,216 --> 00:29:08,336
That is just a constant, that's a constant theme.

387
00:29:08,396 --> 00:29:12,896
But I think with AI, it just feels much more stark and much more substantial.

388
00:29:14,396 --> 00:29:15,256
I think that's fair.

389
00:29:15,256 --> 00:29:20,696
And it's somehow much more relatable, I think, to the average person as well.

390
00:29:22,036 --> 00:29:25,516
It's somehow more accessible, relatable, whatever you want to say,

391
00:29:25,516 --> 00:29:31,476
for the average person to actually just like start quote using ai like i mean even if they're just

392
00:29:31,476 --> 00:29:36,436
using you know chat gpt as their version of google right there's like a glorified google search but

393
00:29:36,436 --> 00:29:42,196
it's right right right um personally i think probably my biggest use case for ai is uh figuring

394
00:29:42,196 --> 00:29:47,436
out how to do super niche home improvement things uh and little tips for it's actually amazing at

395
00:29:47,436 --> 00:29:52,316
that i'm like yeah i've i've yeah i use it constantly you can like throw out all your

396
00:29:52,316 --> 00:29:57,196
instruction manual yeah you can troubleshoot appliances issues it's very helpful about like

397
00:29:57,196 --> 00:30:03,276
obscure things that don't wouldn't have like a reddit community dedicated to fixing them

398
00:30:03,276 --> 00:30:09,036
yeah it's very helpful it's amazing but it's then like contrast that with bitcoin where it's like

399
00:30:09,036 --> 00:30:16,496
yes you okay yes it is uncensorable unfuckable and confiscatable undebasable money but again

400
00:30:16,496 --> 00:30:21,776
that just kind of sounds like buzzwords to people or it sounds like you're some sort of you know i

401
00:30:21,776 --> 00:30:24,896
I don't know, extremist of one side or another, depending on who you talk to.

402
00:30:25,176 --> 00:30:30,356
The problem is the same problem that Nostra has, but Bitcoin has been more successful than Nostra,

403
00:30:30,436 --> 00:30:32,736
but it's just because it's a low bar with Nostra's success.

404
00:30:33,696 --> 00:30:38,356
Like Nostra is already a success for a ride or die communication protocol.

405
00:30:39,196 --> 00:30:42,236
Like I use it all the time as my ride or dies use it.

406
00:30:42,316 --> 00:30:43,416
It's fantastic for that.

407
00:30:45,296 --> 00:30:47,456
People want to know what's real and what's not.

408
00:30:47,456 --> 00:30:52,056
They know Rabbit Hole Recap and Sill Dispatch are hashed and signed on Noster.

409
00:30:52,876 --> 00:30:58,856
Like, who knows if things get changed and deep faked on other on corporate platforms, but you know it's not happening on Noster.

410
00:30:58,956 --> 00:30:59,776
Already a success there.

411
00:31:00,136 --> 00:31:07,876
Where it's been a failure is adoption and a bigger level adoption, pass the ride or dies.

412
00:31:08,176 --> 00:31:09,076
And same with Bitcoin.

413
00:31:09,176 --> 00:31:11,256
And the reason is because it's fighting a network effect.

414
00:31:11,956 --> 00:31:12,136
Right.

415
00:31:12,136 --> 00:31:18,176
And so with Noster, Noster's fighting things like X and TikTok and Instagram, these corporate network effects that have been very successful.

416
00:31:18,296 --> 00:31:19,596
Telegram has 2 billion users.

417
00:31:20,316 --> 00:31:26,756
You know, Facebook's corporate holdings, all, you know, WhatsApp, Instagram, Facebook, all of them is like 4 billion users, 5 billion users.

418
00:31:27,496 --> 00:31:32,196
And then something like Signal, which has been relatively successful, is only 100 million users, right?

419
00:31:32,236 --> 00:31:34,336
And then Noster's even smaller than that.

420
00:31:34,796 --> 00:31:36,816
But then you compare what Bitcoin's competing against.

421
00:31:36,916 --> 00:31:40,476
Bitcoin's competing against the U.S. dollar network effect, which is fucking insane.

422
00:31:40,476 --> 00:31:54,036
Like you're basically asking people to almost opt out completely of society, of societal norms, if they're going to start using real Bitcoin and operate on a Bitcoin standard and try and spend and receive Bitcoin as necessary.

423
00:31:54,556 --> 00:31:58,936
That's a significant uphill battle on network effect.

424
00:31:58,936 --> 00:32:12,216
And I think it's a worthy battle, but I think if you want to maintain your sanity, it's important to fight battles that don't require fighting network effect at the same time.

425
00:32:12,256 --> 00:32:16,736
So at least you have some that you could be tangibly winning in the short term.

426
00:32:16,976 --> 00:32:21,076
And that's how I've been trying to mentally frame it in my head.

427
00:32:21,136 --> 00:32:24,256
It's like, okay, I'll fight the network effect battles, but it can't be the only battle I fight.

428
00:32:24,336 --> 00:32:28,896
Otherwise, I'm going to go fucking crazy because it's going to feel like after five years, you barely move the needle.

429
00:32:29,876 --> 00:32:34,736
So what's the non-network effect battle that you would fight with Nostra or with Bitcoin?

430
00:32:35,296 --> 00:32:41,956
Well, with Bitcoin, what it's been is what I like to call the translation layer apps, right?

431
00:32:41,956 --> 00:32:48,596
Which is like stuff like Strike or Cash App or whatever that sit in between U.S. dollars and Bitcoin.

432
00:32:50,256 --> 00:32:57,956
And the example I always use is, you know, like our nanny, like different...

433
00:32:58,936 --> 00:33:01,896
normies that are effectively on my family's payroll.

434
00:33:02,856 --> 00:33:04,856
Throughout the years, I've always tried to pay them in Bitcoin.

435
00:33:04,996 --> 00:33:09,436
And I would always go like the self-custody, more cypherpunk route.

436
00:33:09,656 --> 00:33:11,476
And it was always very, very difficult.

437
00:33:12,216 --> 00:33:13,436
There was tons of friction.

438
00:33:13,716 --> 00:33:15,236
They would constantly be asking me questions.

439
00:33:16,036 --> 00:33:20,096
They would get burnt out by it and then start asking to get paid on Venmo again.

440
00:33:20,896 --> 00:33:25,596
And my wife said to me, she's like, just like set them up with a strike account.

441
00:33:25,976 --> 00:33:27,776
Like you're the largest investor in strike.

442
00:33:27,776 --> 00:33:33,056
yes it has KYC you know it's not gonna disappear they're already KYC done Venmo

443
00:33:33,056 --> 00:33:37,496
just set them up with a strike account and that's been I've been extremely

444
00:33:37,496 --> 00:33:42,236
successful because it's something they're used to and they can actually use

445
00:33:42,236 --> 00:33:45,596
it to pay their rent and the different things like these people don't have

446
00:33:45,596 --> 00:33:50,756
savings like they they're literally living week but week to week you know

447
00:33:50,756 --> 00:33:54,936
cleaning ladies and stuff they're living week to week they have to be able to

448
00:33:54,936 --> 00:33:56,096
spend this on real things.

449
00:33:57,016 --> 00:33:58,916
And they're not willing to wait

450
00:33:58,916 --> 00:34:01,036
for the Bitcoin circular economy

451
00:34:01,036 --> 00:34:02,696
to appear for that to be the case.

452
00:34:03,496 --> 00:34:04,856
So I would say like Strike

453
00:34:04,856 --> 00:34:06,456
is a good example of that.

454
00:34:06,456 --> 00:34:07,676
I would say that

455
00:34:07,676 --> 00:34:13,616
meeting people where they're at

456
00:34:13,616 --> 00:34:15,576
in terms of levels

457
00:34:15,576 --> 00:34:16,516
of personal responsibility

458
00:34:16,516 --> 00:34:20,896
when using self-custody-ish Bitcoin, right?

459
00:34:21,036 --> 00:34:23,656
Like I think Spark, for instance,

460
00:34:23,736 --> 00:34:24,656
gets a lot of hate

461
00:34:24,936 --> 00:34:32,856
Uh, and a lot of it is deserved because it's not, you know, purely trustless and it's run by an ex

462
00:34:32,856 --> 00:34:40,356
Facebook guy who's funded by a 16 Z and makes a lot of sense, I think. But also at the same time,

463
00:34:40,356 --> 00:34:46,156
like it makes it really easy to receive your first app. Right. And you don't have to manage channels.

464
00:34:46,536 --> 00:34:51,096
You have relatively good trade off balance compared to what the status quo is.

465
00:34:51,096 --> 00:34:53,016
realizing that we're not in a vacuum,

466
00:34:54,096 --> 00:34:57,196
that we're competing against things out there

467
00:34:57,196 --> 00:34:58,516
that are way worse,

468
00:34:58,956 --> 00:35:01,616
and we can meet people where they're at in the middle

469
00:35:01,616 --> 00:35:04,676
and improve their lives without asking them

470
00:35:04,676 --> 00:35:07,416
to take a full jump off a cliff,

471
00:35:07,716 --> 00:35:09,456
I think is a way to think about it.

472
00:35:10,356 --> 00:35:14,456
I think, yeah, I mean,

473
00:35:14,536 --> 00:35:16,736
Noster is definitely the harder one

474
00:35:16,736 --> 00:35:20,036
to not compete with the network effect, right?

475
00:35:20,036 --> 00:35:23,316
but there's ways to do it.

476
00:35:23,856 --> 00:35:27,636
Part of the problem is that the closed platforms

477
00:35:27,636 --> 00:35:30,636
realize really quickly what their mode is

478
00:35:30,636 --> 00:35:35,576
and what the product is, and that's the data, right?

479
00:35:35,696 --> 00:35:37,396
So in a perfect world,

480
00:35:37,396 --> 00:35:39,596
if we wanted to not be with the network effect,

481
00:35:39,596 --> 00:35:41,376
like we should be pulling in all the tweets

482
00:35:41,376 --> 00:35:43,236
and bringing it into Nostra apps.

483
00:35:44,776 --> 00:35:45,936
Elon won't let us do that.

484
00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:47,336
Even Blue Sky won't let us do that.

485
00:35:47,516 --> 00:35:48,636
I mean, Blue Sky will let us do it.

486
00:35:48,636 --> 00:35:52,996
Blue Sky is the only one who will let us do it, but it still requires permission.

487
00:35:53,256 --> 00:35:55,416
But even True Social won't let us do it.

488
00:35:55,816 --> 00:35:57,616
That is a login paywall now.

489
00:35:58,216 --> 00:36:03,856
Not paywall, but a login wall, and you can't easily programmatically pull in stuff from there.

490
00:36:04,436 --> 00:36:08,356
But that would be one way of kind of trying to break that network effect piece.

491
00:36:08,476 --> 00:36:12,016
And then on the AI side, zero network effect issues.

492
00:36:12,016 --> 00:36:21,816
If you're building anything on the AI side, there might be network effect issues once like the entrenched monopolies get in place.

493
00:36:22,256 --> 00:36:24,376
But right now, it's not really the case.

494
00:36:24,816 --> 00:36:31,056
Like all the AI shit is kind of open water and you can do what you want without battling network effect.

495
00:36:31,056 --> 00:36:35,796
the interesting thing on the ai piece as well is obviously and this goes back to what you said

496
00:36:35,796 --> 00:36:41,676
earlier about china pushing open source ai not being on your bingo card nor mine nor i think

497
00:36:41,676 --> 00:36:47,636
most people's but it makes sense at least my read on this from a let's say game theoretical

498
00:36:47,636 --> 00:36:52,416
perspective that they're like okay these american companies currently have very big moats what's

499
00:36:52,416 --> 00:36:58,756
the easiest way to get rid of their moat well open source it like make make this make this stuff

500
00:36:58,756 --> 00:37:05,076
open source. And that is kind of the interesting thing. I wonder the, the only, in my mind, at

501
00:37:05,076 --> 00:37:09,396
least I'm curious your thoughts on this, but in my mind, the only way that these big players right

502
00:37:09,396 --> 00:37:15,496
now, the big AI players are really going to maintain a massive moat is through the regulatory

503
00:37:15,496 --> 00:37:21,536
apparatus. That's why you see Altman, he pulls the Brian Armstrong, like we just want regulation.

504
00:37:21,656 --> 00:37:24,376
You know, it's, it's like, of course, the biggest guys always want regulation because they've got,

505
00:37:24,376 --> 00:37:28,816
you know, billions and billions of dollars and they can pay the very expensive lawyers.

506
00:37:29,016 --> 00:37:32,776
Although maybe those lawyers will get less expensive as, as AI makes them.

507
00:37:32,776 --> 00:37:38,016
So I don't know, but that's at least in my mind, the only way that these companies end

508
00:37:38,016 --> 00:37:39,336
up maintaining any sort of moat.

509
00:37:39,376 --> 00:37:45,516
And you see, you see stuff like with the, uh, the whole like NSA being like, well, we,

510
00:37:45,696 --> 00:37:49,776
all of our stuff was hacked by, by, you know, uh, by mythos or whatever.

511
00:37:49,776 --> 00:37:53,796
And it's like, really the NSA known for their forthrightness and candor and

512
00:37:53,796 --> 00:37:57,636
transparency is just saying, yeah, we just got totally at there's no ulterior motive there at

513
00:37:57,636 --> 00:38:01,536
all. It's not at all trying to basically position things that they can say, well, actually, this is

514
00:38:01,536 --> 00:38:05,556
too dangerous to let the people have. We can't even let the open source stuff exist. We're going

515
00:38:05,556 --> 00:38:10,276
to make that illegal. Like, I'm curious where you said, do you see a different motive from China's

516
00:38:10,276 --> 00:38:16,496
side? Is it purely altruistic? And where are you at in terms of what the actual potential actions

517
00:38:16,496 --> 00:38:22,796
of these bigot, the current incumbents, let's say, combined with the government is going to be,

518
00:38:22,796 --> 00:38:24,816
because they're not, they don't, they don't, you know,

519
00:38:24,816 --> 00:38:27,076
the genie's out of the bottle, but they want to try to put it back in, right?

520
00:38:28,216 --> 00:38:31,736
Yeah, I mean, look, the CCP is not altruistic at all.

521
00:38:33,056 --> 00:38:38,376
They are savvy and effective executors and know what they're doing.

522
00:38:40,716 --> 00:38:44,036
And the open source AI strategy is multifold.

523
00:38:44,036 --> 00:38:51,736
I mean, I think one is obviously a large part of our capital infrastructure

524
00:38:51,736 --> 00:38:57,696
has gone into AI build out in America, ton of money, you know, billions of dollars, hundreds

525
00:38:57,696 --> 00:39:11,204
of billions of dollars And if you can kind of demonetize those and attack those through open competitors I think it could have significant effects on our economy

526
00:39:11,364 --> 00:39:12,444
And they're aware of that.

527
00:39:12,624 --> 00:39:18,264
I think the second piece is no one would trust hitting Chinese servers to use these things.

528
00:39:18,584 --> 00:39:20,224
A lot of people wouldn't trust, right?

529
00:39:20,584 --> 00:39:26,204
And you want, in these early stages, what you want is you want other people to build on top of your shit, right?

530
00:39:26,644 --> 00:39:28,764
You want GitHub to integrate your shit.

531
00:39:28,904 --> 00:39:31,684
You know, Microsoft, you want them to integrate your shit, build on top of it.

532
00:39:31,744 --> 00:39:36,664
You want large corporations to run their Slack through your shit and then get hooked on it, right?

533
00:39:37,164 --> 00:39:42,124
And there's a lot of people that rightfully would not hit Chinese servers to do that.

534
00:39:42,164 --> 00:39:43,244
So you need to open source it.

535
00:39:43,244 --> 00:39:51,164
And I think the last piece is even if they're not hosting this stuff, and a lot of times they are, right?

536
00:39:51,164 --> 00:39:58,044
Like if you want to hit the cheapest way of hitting Kimmy, for instance, or GLM-52 or something, like you are hitting CCP servers.

537
00:39:58,144 --> 00:39:59,184
You're going to hit Chinese servers.

538
00:39:59,284 --> 00:40:00,104
They're going to host it for you.

539
00:40:00,184 --> 00:40:02,344
But you can also host it outside of them.

540
00:40:04,144 --> 00:40:20,344
But like they get to – if they get to build the intelligence, the quote-unquote intelligence, the knowledge base, the source of truth that a bunch of society is built on top of, there's a lot of insidious shit you can do that's not censorship or surveillance.

541
00:40:20,344 --> 00:40:28,044
And the biggest example of it is, you know, it's the most obvious one to people is like you ask one of these Chinese models what happened at Tiananmen Square.

542
00:40:28,344 --> 00:40:30,244
And they're like, oh, well, absolutely nothing happened.

543
00:40:30,304 --> 00:40:32,404
It's a beautiful square and you should go visit, you know.

544
00:40:33,064 --> 00:40:35,684
CCP is the best government on earth.

545
00:40:36,284 --> 00:40:39,044
So there's many reasons why they would do it.

546
00:40:40,904 --> 00:40:46,464
And I think a lot of those reasons are also reasons why like the U.S. should foster it in a big way.

547
00:40:46,464 --> 00:41:00,964
But there's just so much money behind, as you said, this regulatory moat strategy that clearly most of these companies seem to be pushing in that route, pushing that way.

548
00:41:01,844 --> 00:41:09,824
Specifically, Anthropic has been – it's like their main strategy is to scare and then get a regulatory moat.

549
00:41:10,944 --> 00:41:15,864
Anthropic is also weird too, right, because they're run by effective altruists, which is basically a cult.

550
00:41:15,864 --> 00:41:17,744
It's the same cult SBF was a part of.

551
00:41:18,464 --> 00:41:20,644
And they like literally think they're making God.

552
00:41:20,984 --> 00:41:22,404
Like that's who these people are.

553
00:41:23,584 --> 00:41:27,284
And so they very much want full KYC on their own models.

554
00:41:27,584 --> 00:41:30,344
And they want to know how everyone's using it because they look down on you.

555
00:41:30,544 --> 00:41:36,904
They think that they need to be paternalistic and they need to gatekeep everything you do with what they build.

556
00:41:37,484 --> 00:41:42,064
But they know right now if they do that, if they go past what they're currently doing,

557
00:41:42,064 --> 00:41:49,624
which is phone number based and credit card based, which is still pretty bad, but it could get a lot worse.

558
00:41:49,744 --> 00:41:53,384
If they go past that, they need their competitors to also do it.

559
00:41:53,464 --> 00:41:54,684
Otherwise, people are just going to switch.

560
00:41:54,744 --> 00:41:55,564
It'll be too much friction.

561
00:41:56,564 --> 00:41:58,604
So that's part of the strategy for sure.

562
00:41:59,024 --> 00:42:00,604
You can see it happening in real time.

563
00:42:02,124 --> 00:42:02,324
Yeah.

564
00:42:02,464 --> 00:42:07,004
I mean, even just the pulling back, what was it, Fable?

565
00:42:08,024 --> 00:42:08,384
Yeah.

566
00:42:08,384 --> 00:42:10,904
And saying like, oh, we can't let foreign nationals have this.

567
00:42:10,904 --> 00:42:14,364
And it's like, well, how are we going to determine effectively who's a foreign national?

568
00:42:14,564 --> 00:42:18,024
I guess everyone's just going to have to upload their government ID and, you know, home address.

569
00:42:18,384 --> 00:42:19,784
And, you know, I mean, Sam has the best.

570
00:42:19,884 --> 00:42:20,604
He's got WorldCoin.

571
00:42:20,684 --> 00:42:22,964
You can just scan your eyeballs before you access it.

572
00:42:23,264 --> 00:42:25,444
But it's just proof of humanness.

573
00:42:25,524 --> 00:42:26,304
That's all it is.

574
00:42:26,364 --> 00:42:26,964
It's just a total.

575
00:42:27,044 --> 00:42:29,504
He's just trying to make the world a better place.

576
00:42:29,604 --> 00:42:35,084
That's why they went and deployed this in third world countries using super, super sketchy tactics.

577
00:42:35,364 --> 00:42:40,684
Like it's just for the good of human, for the greater good, Odell, just for the greater good.

578
00:42:40,684 --> 00:42:43,284
Like, I don't know, some of this stuff is just so on the nose, though.

579
00:42:43,344 --> 00:42:45,004
The WorldCoin thing, they're still doing that, right?

580
00:42:45,064 --> 00:42:46,124
They rebranded it, though.

581
00:42:47,264 --> 00:42:49,864
No, I don't think they rebranded it, did they?

582
00:42:49,864 --> 00:42:50,944
I thought they did a rebrand.

583
00:42:51,164 --> 00:42:52,404
Wait, hold on.

584
00:42:53,304 --> 00:42:54,324
Hold on, let me check on that.

585
00:42:54,404 --> 00:42:56,404
I thought they simplified the name.

586
00:42:58,024 --> 00:43:03,004
Oh, now it's just called World or World Network, which is just like, ah.

587
00:43:03,184 --> 00:43:03,884
Coins are bad.

588
00:43:04,104 --> 00:43:05,284
People don't like coins right now.

589
00:43:05,384 --> 00:43:07,284
Yeah, you know, drop the coin.

590
00:43:07,424 --> 00:43:08,664
Just World, it's cleaner.

591
00:43:08,664 --> 00:43:24,944
And yeah, I mean, it's just it's all it's just all so creepy. And I guess where I'm at right now is because of like doing the show and, you know, listening to your shows and all the getting my 40 hours per week as much as I can, although I've been more on sci fi audio books lately.

592
00:43:24,944 --> 00:43:44,224
I am very bullish on humanity. I'm very optimistic about the future. I see I'm now friends with people who are building incredible things that are very much in a enable resistance against the Panopticon that is currently being built and is very much, very much getting scarier by the day.

593
00:43:44,224 --> 00:43:45,184
So I'm very optimistic.

594
00:43:45,844 --> 00:43:55,024
At the same time, it's like, this goes back to what we said earlier about, you know, it's a few people that end up really moving the needle, changing the world, right?

595
00:43:55,044 --> 00:44:00,484
But there's also security in numbers from like an anonymity set perspective, right?

596
00:44:00,544 --> 00:44:04,324
And just like you need, you do need more people using these FreedomTech tools.

597
00:44:04,324 --> 00:44:09,284
Otherwise, it gets a little bit easier to figure out the people that are using it because there's just so few people.

598
00:44:09,404 --> 00:44:12,204
It's like, you know, the problem with Zcash and Monero, for example.

599
00:44:12,364 --> 00:44:13,264
I mean, one of many.

600
00:44:14,224 --> 00:44:28,244
Are you, where are you at right now in terms of optimism versus pessimism on where humanity is going from a panopticon versus freedom tech perspective?

601
00:44:28,404 --> 00:44:34,724
Like, are the tools, is the fact that it is easier to encrypt than decrypt, is that fact alone enough for us?

602
00:44:34,964 --> 00:44:40,364
Or, you know, is there, should we be more concerned than perhaps a lot of people are?

603
00:44:40,364 --> 00:44:47,524
I mean, I think I'm strictly an optimist. I think some people might disagree with me.

604
00:44:47,524 --> 00:44:54,804
And I'm very hopeful. And I think, I mean, we're both relatively new fathers, right? And I think

605
00:44:54,804 --> 00:45:01,784
you have a kid, you start to think in generations, right? It's very much true. And think about their

606
00:45:01,784 --> 00:45:08,604
future and think about making sure their future is better than our current present. And I'm

607
00:45:08,604 --> 00:45:17,284
optimistic on that path and i you kind of have to be right um otherwise it's like you kind of

608
00:45:17,284 --> 00:45:24,724
just go through a doom loop spiral that just will result in doom i think um but i think it's

609
00:45:24,724 --> 00:45:33,664
important to like set expectations appropriately right and this goes to my missed expectations

610
00:45:33,664 --> 00:45:37,164
of the Nostra build out in a lot of ways,

611
00:45:37,344 --> 00:45:40,604
Nostra adoption and Bitcoin adoption, to be honest.

612
00:45:40,844 --> 00:45:44,844
You know, when I was a younger, wide-eyed Bitcoiner,

613
00:45:45,204 --> 00:45:47,384
I, you know, I thought everyone was going to be using

614
00:45:47,384 --> 00:45:49,764
Bitcoin as freedom money within 10 years or so.

615
00:45:49,804 --> 00:45:52,264
And that was over 10 years ago.

616
00:45:53,944 --> 00:45:56,424
I found some old articles by you, by the way,

617
00:45:56,424 --> 00:46:00,364
some very old ones, but I won't disclose them here.

618
00:46:00,724 --> 00:46:01,584
But I found...

619
00:46:01,584 --> 00:46:02,264
People can find them.

620
00:46:02,264 --> 00:46:04,744
Yeah, Google exists.

621
00:46:04,904 --> 00:46:08,704
But, like, I was just like, wow, you've come so far.

622
00:46:08,824 --> 00:46:10,704
You look better with facial hair now, too, I'll say.

623
00:46:10,844 --> 00:46:12,724
I can't grow it myself.

624
00:46:13,024 --> 00:46:17,204
That one cursed photo from, like, 15 years ago that all the haters use against me.

625
00:46:18,844 --> 00:46:24,164
But, look, it's important to set expectations, right?

626
00:46:24,164 --> 00:46:27,044
So I think, first of all, the rider dies are what give me hope.

627
00:46:27,044 --> 00:46:38,984
And we should be, you should be taking like at least a portion of your time, a significant portion of your time focused on the rider dies and enabling other rider dies to empower themselves.

628
00:46:38,984 --> 00:46:44,404
And I think that will make significant scalable change because one man can't do it alone.

629
00:46:44,404 --> 00:46:53,204
Right. But if you, if you empower 10 or 100 and then those 10 or 100 empower another 10 or 100, like that's significant and it compounds on top of each other.

630
00:46:53,204 --> 00:47:00,744
I think the second piece, like I said earlier, is meeting people where they're at and having pragmatic tradeoff balances and trying not to battle network effect.

631
00:47:02,344 --> 00:47:07,624
And I just I thought of another example that's tangential to Bitcoin is like Tor, right?

632
00:47:07,644 --> 00:47:12,324
Like the Tor browser, you're strictly better from a privacy point of view if everyone's using Onion addresses.

633
00:47:12,904 --> 00:47:18,504
But way less people would use Tor browser if you couldn't also access the ClearNet on it and just type in a website.

634
00:47:18,504 --> 00:47:27,584
And that's a perfect example, I think, of a pragmatic tradeoff balance that was made, even though you have worse privacy and security guarantees if you are accessing ClearNet through Tor browser.

635
00:47:28,324 --> 00:47:30,984
So there's that piece, focusing on the ride or die is that piece.

636
00:47:31,064 --> 00:47:34,004
But then the third piece is like expectations.

637
00:47:34,504 --> 00:47:37,064
Like what does success of Bitcoin as freedom money look like?

638
00:47:37,924 --> 00:47:40,384
It's not more than 5% of the population.

639
00:47:41,364 --> 00:47:42,384
Like that's what it is.

640
00:47:42,644 --> 00:47:48,244
Maybe in 100 years we could blow that number out and like the death of fiat or whatever.

641
00:47:48,504 --> 00:47:53,824
But I think even in that situation, people will be using Bitcoin in controlled and surveilled ways.

642
00:47:54,264 --> 00:48:00,984
So if that's the expectation, then you can actually build realistically towards it.

643
00:48:01,064 --> 00:48:15,644
And what I mean there, I mean, I think as a hopeful, optimistic person, the way to think about it is in 20 years, 30 years, the overwhelming majority of people will be living in a more dystopia type of situation.

644
00:48:15,644 --> 00:48:22,284
But there'll be 5% of us that are living in a more positive, freedom-oriented way.

645
00:48:22,904 --> 00:48:31,064
And I think focusing on that is key to mental health because otherwise you get lost in this bullshit.

646
00:48:31,284 --> 00:48:32,864
You get lost in these bullshit expectations.

647
00:48:33,624 --> 00:48:36,244
And there's a lot of people that want you to get lost in them, right?

648
00:48:36,264 --> 00:48:45,444
Because from like an influencer point of view, saying that everyone will be free, saying that you don't have to take personal responsibility, saying that you don't have to put in any work whatsoever and your life will be better.

649
00:48:45,644 --> 00:48:52,504
sells way better. That's saying that some people, you need to take the harder path. Like you want to

650
00:48:52,504 --> 00:48:55,444
have a better life, you need to take the harder path and you will be rewarded for it.

651
00:48:57,204 --> 00:49:02,924
This just makes me think also in terms of, because I agree with you on those percentages as well. And

652
00:49:02,924 --> 00:49:08,244
maybe those are even more, like those are, I think those are optimistic, like 5% is an optimist.

653
00:49:08,244 --> 00:49:08,824
It's very high.

654
00:49:10,024 --> 00:49:14,964
Your optimist is showing, but that's a good thing, right? It's better to aim for the stars and

655
00:49:14,964 --> 00:49:21,604
fall amongst the treetops but i'm curious from that adoption perspective we touched earlier just

656
00:49:21,604 --> 00:49:27,724
briefly on sort of the uh in suitification of of bitcoin now who's trapped in the room with whom

657
00:49:27,724 --> 00:49:34,044
it remains to be seen uh and kind of want to get into that a little bit but also from the

658
00:49:34,044 --> 00:49:38,504
store of value versus medium of exchange perspective like this is something that is

659
00:49:38,504 --> 00:49:44,704
this debate's been around obviously for a lot longer than i've been in bitcoin i haven't been

660
00:49:44,704 --> 00:49:48,944
Bitcoin that long. I'm getting there now. You know, few years, people be like, you know, you're

661
00:49:48,944 --> 00:49:54,004
an OG if you got in in the 2020s, you know, like it's all it's all relative, right? But

662
00:49:54,004 --> 00:50:00,044
personally, I try to use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange as much as I can. Like I use it every

663
00:50:00,044 --> 00:50:05,724
day on Noster just to zap value for value. I also try to spend it online whenever I have the option.

664
00:50:05,964 --> 00:50:09,684
I try to spend it in person whenever I have the option. It's easy at conferences,

665
00:50:10,224 --> 00:50:14,424
harder in day to day life. But like I go to steak and shake a lot since they've got tallow fries

666
00:50:14,424 --> 00:50:17,984
and grass-fed beef, and I spend Bitcoin when I go there.

667
00:50:18,084 --> 00:50:19,424
And I'm really happy to do that.

668
00:50:19,484 --> 00:50:21,004
And yes, guys, I replace it right away.

669
00:50:21,424 --> 00:50:22,084
Don't worry.

670
00:50:22,904 --> 00:50:26,024
But there's a lot of folks who seem to be under the impression

671
00:50:26,024 --> 00:50:29,244
that medium of exchange adoption is actually not,

672
00:50:29,504 --> 00:50:31,304
like, that just saving in Bitcoin is enough.

673
00:50:31,444 --> 00:50:32,364
Saving in Bitcoin is using.

674
00:50:32,444 --> 00:50:33,284
And I agree that it's using.

675
00:50:33,444 --> 00:50:36,084
Like, that's, yes, store value is one of the functions of it, right?

676
00:50:37,104 --> 00:50:40,784
Personally, I just think that if, like, people should make an effort,

677
00:50:40,784 --> 00:50:41,824
again, do what you want with your money,

678
00:50:41,904 --> 00:50:43,544
but you should make an effort to spend Bitcoin

679
00:50:43,544 --> 00:50:50,544
and medium of exchange adoption is very much needed for Bitcoin to achieve what it needs to achieve.

680
00:50:51,304 --> 00:50:52,664
Where are you at with that?

681
00:50:53,504 --> 00:50:55,084
Yeah, I mean, the answer is it's both.

682
00:50:55,664 --> 00:50:56,744
And it's always been both.

683
00:50:56,884 --> 00:50:57,924
It always will be both.

684
00:50:58,644 --> 00:51:01,384
Like good money should increase in purchasing power over time.

685
00:51:02,084 --> 00:51:06,764
So anyone who tells you like price doesn't matter, like price is one of the most important metrics.

686
00:51:07,784 --> 00:51:11,984
And then the second piece is you should be able to spend it without permission.

687
00:51:11,984 --> 00:51:18,044
Because if you can't spend your wealth without permission, you have no wealth.

688
00:51:18,644 --> 00:51:20,304
It's fundamentally an IOU.

689
00:51:22,004 --> 00:51:23,084
That's the key.

690
00:51:23,504 --> 00:51:27,344
Both are key aspects to what makes Bitcoin better money.

691
00:51:28,204 --> 00:51:41,484
Now, the question is on a level of urgency, is it urgent to try and fight that network effect and build – like try and just like bull rush?

692
00:51:41,984 --> 00:51:44,484
Bitcoin as a payment method.

693
00:51:45,184 --> 00:51:47,084
And I don't know if that's necessarily the case.

694
00:51:47,084 --> 00:51:48,884
I think it kind of just comes with time.

695
00:51:48,884 --> 00:51:55,224
I mean, look through the years, more and more of my savings has become Bitcoin, right?

696
00:51:55,224 --> 00:52:00,684
And to the point where I'm pretty much like 100% Bitcoin, right?

697
00:52:00,684 --> 00:52:04,944
Like I have like a small float in dollars because I'm running a family and business

698
00:52:04,992 --> 00:52:10,552
and shit. And I, you know, dollars are what people accept in most places. Can't pay my mortgage with

699
00:52:10,552 --> 00:52:19,512
Bitcoin yet. But as a result, like I prefer to spend Bitcoin, like it skips a step. Otherwise,

700
00:52:19,512 --> 00:52:28,472
I need to, otherwise I'm, I'm, I'm selling Bitcoin $2 and then spending the dollar somewhere,

701
00:52:28,572 --> 00:52:33,992
right? It flips, it flips the equation from, oh, I'm receiving dollars and then I need to convert

702
00:52:33,992 --> 00:52:38,212
it to Bitcoin and then spend. And when that's the case, I see why people aren't doing it.

703
00:52:38,872 --> 00:52:46,252
So it's a little bit of a chicken and the egg situation. But yeah, I think good money,

704
00:52:46,952 --> 00:52:50,412
you need to be able to spend and save it without permission. Both are valid use cases. Both are

705
00:52:50,412 --> 00:52:56,332
complementary to each other. But I would say, while I don't think there's necessarily

706
00:52:56,332 --> 00:53:03,792
the hugest level of urgency on trying to bull rush Bitcoin payments adoption when people aren't

707
00:53:03,792 --> 00:53:10,032
ready for it necessarily uh we do need to be very careful of just like completely discarding it and

708
00:53:10,032 --> 00:53:14,132
being like oh people should just have bitcoin in their charles schwab account and never be able to

709
00:53:14,132 --> 00:53:20,772
spend it um because once again then it's not your wealth and you're you're you're eroding one of the

710
00:53:20,772 --> 00:53:26,912
key properties of bitcoin um and you're not expanding the actual base of people that are

711
00:53:26,912 --> 00:53:31,092
holding real Bitcoin as freedom money, which is key.

712
00:53:31,192 --> 00:53:35,412
It's like this remnant base that keeps the system in check in a lot of ways.

713
00:53:35,412 --> 00:53:40,152
The cool part about Bitcoin is that no one can change it easily.

714
00:53:41,172 --> 00:53:43,012
That's one of the core fundamental values.

715
00:53:44,392 --> 00:53:51,772
And a hard-to-measure property of that, I think, is a wide distributed base of people

716
00:53:51,772 --> 00:53:56,812
holding and using real Bitcoin, using their own nodes, holding their own keys, spending it.

717
00:53:56,912 --> 00:54:04,432
without permission um and so like we have to be very careful that i think we do have to be careful

718
00:54:04,432 --> 00:54:12,352
that that percentage of those people in the entire system isn't negligible right it's already small

719
00:54:12,352 --> 00:54:16,992
to be clear like it's definitely more people are using custodial stuff specifically suit

720
00:54:16,992 --> 00:54:24,112
custodial stuff like etfs and mstr and the clones and whatnot um but on the bright side the absolute

721
00:54:24,112 --> 00:54:27,692
number of people using Bitcoin as freedom money and building on top of Bitcoin as freedom money

722
00:54:27,692 --> 00:54:33,152
has never been higher, like from an absolute number. So if that started trending down,

723
00:54:33,272 --> 00:54:39,452
that I think would be a concern in a big way. Yeah, I mean, I agree with all that. Maybe just

724
00:54:39,452 --> 00:54:44,972
an add-on and somebody sort of posed this in the chat on Noster saying, why would we not lose

725
00:54:44,972 --> 00:54:50,972
store of value if we lose that medium of exchange? And I think that kind of to maybe expand on that

726
00:54:50,972 --> 00:54:55,832
question a little bit would be if bitcoin isn't widely used as a medium exchange if it is just

727
00:54:55,832 --> 00:55:00,052
people may say hey it's enough that it's it's finite it's a you know perfect store of value

728
00:55:00,052 --> 00:55:06,392
it's digital capital that's perfect it's all it needs to be but if bitcoin loses one of its the

729
00:55:06,392 --> 00:55:11,672
ability to exercise one of its core properties which is spend it however the fuck you want to

730
00:55:11,672 --> 00:55:19,612
anyone at any time and no one can stop you like that obviously negates some of the huge part of

731
00:55:19,612 --> 00:55:23,312
the value of Bitcoin. As you said, if you can't spend your wealth, you don't have anything.

732
00:55:23,592 --> 00:55:27,392
It's an extreme. It's an extreme. Yeah. That's the problem. Like a lot of these things,

733
00:55:27,392 --> 00:55:32,952
you get lost in these debates over extremes. When it's somewhere in the middle,

734
00:55:33,452 --> 00:55:37,772
and that's where we need it to be somewhere in the middle, and that's where it's healthy,

735
00:55:37,912 --> 00:55:41,352
it is somewhere in the middle. I mean, an interesting thought experiment, I mean,

736
00:55:42,072 --> 00:55:46,212
this will be less relevant to, I guess I didn't ask you, I assume this is also getting released

737
00:55:46,212 --> 00:55:48,192
to podcast apps and stuff afterwards, right?

738
00:55:48,472 --> 00:55:49,052
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

739
00:55:49,192 --> 00:55:49,512
Absolutely.

740
00:55:49,632 --> 00:55:51,112
All of those centralized platforms

741
00:55:51,112 --> 00:55:53,832
and my RSS feed, which, you know, less centralized.

742
00:55:53,832 --> 00:55:54,612
RSS is great.

743
00:55:55,092 --> 00:55:55,532
It's awesome.

744
00:55:56,132 --> 00:55:58,792
So for the non-star writer dies, right?

745
00:55:58,832 --> 00:56:00,232
Like I'd pose a question to you guys.

746
00:56:01,812 --> 00:56:04,292
I am probably one of the largest zappers in the world.

747
00:56:04,992 --> 00:56:07,492
I've been kind of disappointed on lack of zaps.

748
00:56:08,152 --> 00:56:09,592
Like I just don't, like people,

749
00:56:09,792 --> 00:56:11,032
you have the capability.

750
00:56:12,312 --> 00:56:14,112
You have, it's never been easier.

751
00:56:14,112 --> 00:56:16,872
Like in one click, you can send Freedom Money to anyone in the world.

752
00:56:17,032 --> 00:56:19,252
And we're sending like 10 cents to each other.

753
00:56:21,152 --> 00:56:22,712
It's kind of wild.

754
00:56:22,732 --> 00:56:25,192
10 cents would be a big zap, honestly, these days.

755
00:56:25,492 --> 00:56:31,692
Yeah, in a lot of ways, like it's been bullish seeing all the Freedom Money fly around.

756
00:56:31,792 --> 00:56:34,412
But also, it's like kind of disappointing.

757
00:56:34,652 --> 00:56:35,752
Like there's been so many.

758
00:56:35,872 --> 00:56:40,732
I've seen conspiracies like, oh, Odell's always the top zap on like all the trending posts.

759
00:56:40,732 --> 00:56:42,892
It's like, yeah, well, the top zap is a dollar.

760
00:56:42,892 --> 00:56:48,432
like why don't you why don't you send more like why don't you send more money and i think that's

761
00:56:48,432 --> 00:56:53,492
a good example like i'm juicing your zaps for you you're welcome i know yeah just send them guys

762
00:56:53,492 --> 00:57:00,332
prove you're not a fraud um but i think that's a good example right where you like you can have

763
00:57:00,332 --> 00:57:03,912
the tools you can have everything set up you can have the capability right but you can't force

764
00:57:03,912 --> 00:57:08,512
people to do something and so if you're trying to if you're trying if that's your expectation

765
00:57:08,512 --> 00:57:14,332
you're going to be upset you're going to be disappointed yeah i i have not uh i have not

766
00:57:14,332 --> 00:57:21,692
zapped less than 696 sats uh that's that that's my my default zap is 696 it only goes up from there

767
00:57:21,692 --> 00:57:26,932
i have i also checked the metrics it's like i have zapped much more than i have been zapped

768
00:57:26,932 --> 00:57:32,352
and that is like a purposeful thing right yeah no i've you know i've never spent more money on a

769
00:57:32,352 --> 00:57:33,312
free app in my life.

770
00:57:33,972 --> 00:57:38,652
It's like $7,000 net down on Zaps right now or something.

771
00:57:38,732 --> 00:57:38,952
Yeah.

772
00:57:39,432 --> 00:57:39,672
Yeah.

773
00:57:39,852 --> 00:57:44,412
But it is a really incredible thing to be able to do this, right?

774
00:57:44,452 --> 00:57:49,272
And to have that social coordination layer, to have the Venmo aspect, but like without

775
00:57:49,272 --> 00:57:54,812
the really like lame feed in Venmo that's just like, you know, Harry bought a cheeseburger

776
00:57:54,812 --> 00:57:55,992
from, you know, from Bob.

777
00:57:56,152 --> 00:57:58,652
It's like the Venmo feed was always a little creepy to me.

778
00:57:59,072 --> 00:58:00,492
The Noster one less so.

779
00:58:01,492 --> 00:58:02,172
I don't know.

780
00:58:02,352 --> 00:58:08,152
I again people do whatever you want with your money it's one of those things where I I'm not

781
00:58:08,152 --> 00:58:14,932
on Noster because I think I'm going to get rich off zaps right I'm on Noster and I'm zapping

782
00:58:14,932 --> 00:58:19,012
because I find things really valuable and like especially devs like I want to zap devs when I

783
00:58:19,012 --> 00:58:23,192
see even if it's not a tool that I personally use like maybe it's an Android app and I'm a

784
00:58:23,192 --> 00:58:27,932
you know an iPhone guy I'm still going to zap it when I see them putting out a new release because

785
00:58:27,932 --> 00:58:32,712
like that's that's awesome we need more of that I think that's been one of the interesting things

786
00:58:32,712 --> 00:58:39,432
too from a creator perspective I I mean I think uh like you know Paul at Primal has been doing a

787
00:58:39,432 --> 00:58:47,092
killer job of bringing just some good creator vibes to the platform excuse me geez well look

788
00:58:47,092 --> 00:58:54,252
at me I slipped to the protocol but I am curious if we start to see more creators come in and how

789
00:58:54,252 --> 00:58:59,132
much of that is a function of I don't think it's gonna be a function of like revenue at the start

790
00:58:59,132 --> 00:59:03,392
like I think that's what we all like even myself like tried to pitch like look you can get you can

791
00:59:03,392 --> 00:59:07,712
get zapped bitcoin and it's like oh thanks you know 40 45 cents like that's that's great you

792
00:59:07,712 --> 00:59:13,352
know YouTube pays me not me but you know some big creator like a lot more money than that but I do

793
00:59:13,352 --> 00:59:17,932
think that there's a lot of tools coming out even like divine I think is really cool like I loved

794
00:59:17,932 --> 00:59:23,692
vine back in the day that's just like a really fun app that doesn't need to be billed as like a

795
00:59:23,692 --> 00:59:29,052
a Noster client, right? It's just like, it's like Vine, but it's new. And yeah, it happens to be

796
00:59:29,052 --> 00:59:32,172
built on this new open protocol. Like you don't care. You just want to watch short form videos

797
00:59:32,172 --> 00:59:36,972
that are actually made by humans. Like I love seeing that kind of stuff because I think that

798
00:59:36,972 --> 00:59:42,972
stuff, even just looking at how the beta filled up like that, like that stuff moves the needle

799
00:59:42,972 --> 00:59:47,352
from an adoption perspective, how many people actually stick around like that remains to be

800
00:59:47,352 --> 00:59:52,612
seen. But I'm curious if there are other things similar to divine or kind of other within the

801
00:59:52,612 --> 00:59:59,012
social context but either rebuilding some existing thing like divine or you know rebuilding that idea

802
00:59:59,012 --> 01:00:03,732
or creating something new that you're super bullish on beyond just like short form blog

803
01:00:03,732 --> 01:00:11,532
uh you know x type x twitter clones yeah i don't know um first and foremost uh to be discussed in

804
01:00:11,532 --> 01:00:19,752
the nostril chat has asked i think three times now okay um what uh memory system that marty shills

805
01:00:19,752 --> 01:00:24,472
about using with his LLM, with his agent.

806
01:00:24,692 --> 01:00:25,232
I don't know.

807
01:00:25,512 --> 01:00:27,412
I don't have it off the top of my head.

808
01:00:27,412 --> 01:00:28,392
I do not use it.

809
01:00:29,672 --> 01:00:33,332
But I know Marty talks about it on X a lot.

810
01:00:34,272 --> 01:00:35,872
So you can check his X feed.

811
01:00:37,252 --> 01:00:37,972
But, yeah, anyway.

812
01:00:40,052 --> 01:00:41,492
I don't know, man.

813
01:00:41,552 --> 01:00:42,692
I'm at a loss, to be honest.

814
01:00:42,692 --> 01:00:52,572
I don't think it's – I do not think it's money-related that's going to do it.

815
01:00:52,632 --> 01:00:54,372
I think it's a nice to have.

816
01:00:54,452 --> 01:00:57,072
It's a benefit that we can just send freedom money with Zaps.

817
01:00:58,832 --> 01:01:05,312
I think if you want to make the most money, like it's just a huge gap.

818
01:01:05,312 --> 01:01:11,312
If you do slop on corporate social and feed the algo.

819
01:01:12,732 --> 01:01:23,512
I mean, things like on YouTube, you get deprioritized from the algo if you don't let them insert their own advertising into your shit.

820
01:01:23,652 --> 01:01:24,752
And it's really bad.

821
01:01:25,972 --> 01:01:27,592
Their advertising is really bad.

822
01:01:28,232 --> 01:01:30,712
So people aren't even doing that to get money from YouTube.

823
01:01:30,712 --> 01:01:45,690
They just doing it because they want the algo to boost them and then they make money separately from their own ads or whatnot So I mean I it hard to imagine that people are going to make more money from donations I think where value for value is really helpful is one on censored creators

824
01:01:45,930 --> 01:01:48,450
They don't have other avenues and there's no other option.

825
01:01:48,550 --> 01:01:49,750
There's Bitcoin and Noster.

826
01:01:50,930 --> 01:01:55,110
And then the second piece is like small new people, right?

827
01:01:55,150 --> 01:01:58,350
It's like, oh, you start a new podcast, maybe you make $100, $200 an episode.

828
01:01:58,790 --> 01:01:59,650
Like that's substantial.

829
01:01:59,770 --> 01:02:02,310
Like you can't make that from the corporate socials.

830
01:02:03,550 --> 01:02:13,930
And by the way, and then the other piece is actually paywalls are very effective and have been very – like there's substat creators that are making millions of dollars a year on paywall newsletters.

831
01:02:15,510 --> 01:02:20,070
It's hard to imagine donations coming close to that.

832
01:02:20,830 --> 01:02:22,670
So I don't think it's the money piece.

833
01:02:22,930 --> 01:02:24,330
I think Divine is kind of interesting.

834
01:02:25,810 --> 01:02:27,870
I'm very grateful Ravel is building a Noster.

835
01:02:27,870 --> 01:02:32,570
I think it's probably a little bit overhyped, to be honest, and we'll see what kind of staying power is there.

836
01:02:33,550 --> 01:02:41,970
Um, but I mean, I think, look, if we're going to be honest with ourselves, like the tools

837
01:02:41,970 --> 01:02:43,850
on Nostra just have not been stable.

838
01:02:43,990 --> 01:02:45,470
Like we just haven't been stable.

839
01:02:45,550 --> 01:02:50,050
It's only relatively recently, like the last six months, 12 months where there's multiple

840
01:02:50,050 --> 01:02:55,850
apps that work pretty well that, you know, aren't like immediately showing you dick pics

841
01:02:55,850 --> 01:03:00,390
when you sign in, you know, that are like, like are tangibly usable.

842
01:03:00,390 --> 01:03:07,350
and so that's the first step and then I think you know people will come for like the freedom

843
01:03:07,350 --> 01:03:14,530
and truth piece and it unfortunately I think like you need to see the like the alternatives

844
01:03:14,530 --> 01:03:19,950
basically get significantly worse because of societal pressure and incentive pressure and

845
01:03:19,950 --> 01:03:24,690
corporate pressure things like we said like the ID verification stuff like that

846
01:03:24,690 --> 01:03:31,010
But by the way, like, Nasser doesn't even solve all those aspects, right?

847
01:03:31,010 --> 01:03:43,310
Like when we saw Brazil crackdown, I remember Brazil crackdown on X, and it was specifically like anti-government people or anti the current regime people.

848
01:03:44,930 --> 01:03:47,530
Like they made a law that said you just couldn't post.

849
01:03:48,370 --> 01:03:54,650
And so those people would have to start the web of trust from square one with an Anon account.

850
01:03:54,690 --> 01:03:57,390
Like they couldn't just like post as the influencer themselves.

851
01:03:57,550 --> 01:04:00,570
They couldn't be like, then they just get their house raided, right?

852
01:04:00,610 --> 01:04:06,430
Like there's outside of protocol ways of enforcing restrictions on digital speech

853
01:04:06,430 --> 01:04:10,250
that can be leveraged against people that NASA doesn't solve.

854
01:04:10,250 --> 01:04:16,390
Now, what is interesting is group chats could solve that or help, right?

855
01:04:16,490 --> 01:04:17,350
Encrypted group chats.

856
01:04:17,470 --> 01:04:22,790
And I think we're very fortunate that we have Signal available to us.

857
01:04:22,790 --> 01:04:26,190
I run a ton of my personal and business life through Signal at this point.

858
01:04:26,330 --> 01:04:28,490
Like 99% of my comms are going through Signal.

859
01:04:28,830 --> 01:04:34,770
But it's centralized and completely vulnerable to government pressure.

860
01:04:35,590 --> 01:04:38,550
And so I don't think we should just assume that will always be the status quo.

861
01:04:38,670 --> 01:04:42,390
And so it would be nice to see a NOSTER-based alternative to it.

862
01:04:42,450 --> 01:04:44,070
I know the White Noise guys are working on it.

863
01:04:44,350 --> 01:04:46,010
I know they're also having a lot of difficulties.

864
01:04:46,150 --> 01:04:47,250
So I don't want to overhype it.

865
01:04:47,770 --> 01:04:52,150
I think it's an open question whether or not NOSTER would be the ideal protocol for this type of stuff.

866
01:04:52,150 --> 01:04:56,650
obviously simplex has been working on it for a while i don't really care what the protocol is

867
01:04:56,650 --> 01:05:06,170
but there needs to be um a robust non-centralized alternative to signal that works as well as

868
01:05:06,170 --> 01:05:10,770
signal like my 90 plus year old grandmother uses signal because that's how she gets baby photos

869
01:05:10,770 --> 01:05:17,130
like we got to meet people where they're at um and so i think that's increasingly

870
01:05:17,130 --> 01:05:24,910
something that is interesting to me is trying to improve that group chat mechanism,

871
01:05:25,130 --> 01:05:29,630
strong group chats, right? It's like strong local communities almost, but in the digital era.

872
01:05:30,630 --> 01:05:36,230
And I think that it's so much more important than a lot of people realize on the private

873
01:05:36,230 --> 01:05:42,170
communication front. Like we tend to think of free speech as being this thing that you must do in

874
01:05:42,170 --> 01:05:48,270
public in order for it to be effective. But in reality, it's like private speech is just as

875
01:05:48,270 --> 01:05:52,730
important, potentially more so because it is the last line of defense. It's also the way that,

876
01:05:52,870 --> 01:05:58,370
you know, people have been subverting the state since time immemorial.

877
01:05:58,750 --> 01:06:00,010
In pubs with the windows closed.

878
01:06:00,030 --> 01:06:04,210
Exactly. Exactly. Which is why one of the things I was just talking with Max Hillebrand about this

879
01:06:04,210 --> 01:06:09,390
the other day. One of the things that's so crazy to me is that there isn't more pushback,

880
01:06:09,390 --> 01:06:16,330
just widespread pushback for even from non-techie people on governments trying to get back doors

881
01:06:16,330 --> 01:06:20,070
like what the uk has been trying to do will continue to try to do what what every government

882
01:06:20,070 --> 01:06:25,650
tries to get back doors into encrypted messaging services right and just because it's like what

883
01:06:25,650 --> 01:06:30,190
you're effectively asking is i want to come into your living room or i want to come into your you

884
01:06:30,190 --> 01:06:34,890
know your booth in the pub and and listen to everything you say and be able to get you in

885
01:06:34,890 --> 01:06:39,250
trouble for anything you say to your friend in that private room in the pub like in the meat space

886
01:06:39,250 --> 01:06:40,730
that would be so untenable.

887
01:06:41,470 --> 01:06:43,470
I mean, but we're also getting close to there, right?

888
01:06:43,470 --> 01:06:44,770
Just with the prevalence of cameras,

889
01:06:45,050 --> 01:06:46,770
everything's listening to you all the time.

890
01:06:47,050 --> 01:06:48,730
But even so, it's like people completely,

891
01:06:49,230 --> 01:06:51,210
they somehow view the digital space as like,

892
01:06:51,570 --> 01:06:52,770
well, that's not quite as important

893
01:06:52,770 --> 01:06:55,070
or that's not quite as maybe like visceral.

894
01:06:55,330 --> 01:06:56,250
I don't know what it is.

895
01:06:56,810 --> 01:06:58,070
There's not even a question there.

896
01:06:58,110 --> 01:06:59,050
It's more so just like,

897
01:06:59,150 --> 01:07:01,830
I wish people were more up in arms about that

898
01:07:01,830 --> 01:07:04,330
because it is an insane violation.

899
01:07:04,850 --> 01:07:08,470
I think that's why you have to just ground yourself in reality

900
01:07:08,470 --> 01:07:11,490
because most people just don't give a shit or won't take the next step.

901
01:07:12,130 --> 01:07:18,090
By the way, to be discussed, because you're the top zapper to Walker

902
01:07:18,090 --> 01:07:21,370
and you said you deleted your ex, I went on to Marty's ex account.

903
01:07:22,010 --> 01:07:28,890
I searched memory, and he is using something called QMD plus Cogne, C-O-G-N-E-E.

904
01:07:29,050 --> 01:07:29,690
So you're welcome.

905
01:07:30,410 --> 01:07:33,810
And to everyone else out there, if you zap more than him and you ask a question,

906
01:07:33,970 --> 01:07:35,370
I'm obligated to answer it.

907
01:07:35,390 --> 01:07:36,430
I have to answer the question.

908
01:07:36,590 --> 01:07:37,550
So just keep that in mind.

909
01:07:37,550 --> 01:07:38,630
And I don't get any of these apps.

910
01:07:38,690 --> 01:07:39,510
They're only going to Walker.

911
01:07:39,930 --> 01:07:41,070
I just want to see the Freedom Money.

912
01:07:41,070 --> 01:07:42,670
Might have to funnel some your way now.

913
01:07:43,090 --> 01:07:47,370
You know, just out of, I forget if the splits are a great thing.

914
01:07:48,350 --> 01:07:53,150
Yeah, but that's another thing that's like, they're not, and it's complicated to implement.

915
01:07:53,630 --> 01:07:59,570
And then it's like a perfect example of like, in the real world, people can just, when the show ends, send the person their half.

916
01:08:00,930 --> 01:08:01,590
Yeah, right.

917
01:08:01,870 --> 01:08:03,050
Programmatic splits are awesome.

918
01:08:03,190 --> 01:08:05,070
I mean, one of the cool things is OpenSats.

919
01:08:05,310 --> 01:08:06,550
We have a lightning address.

920
01:08:07,550 --> 01:08:10,650
And a node pub key because we run our own node.

921
01:08:11,370 --> 01:08:16,410
So like a bunch of podcasting 2.0 streams just auto split to us, which is pretty fucking cool.

922
01:08:17,530 --> 01:08:33,270
So I think that's I'm not like trying to like completely diminish splits, but I think it's another example of like it's another example of we get too far into the weeds of things just because it's technically possible.

923
01:08:33,730 --> 01:08:37,110
It doesn't mean it should necessarily be the highest priority thing.

924
01:08:37,550 --> 01:08:43,670
when like humans have figured out, you know, non-technical ways to solve this stuff.

925
01:08:44,210 --> 01:08:49,370
Yeah. Yeah. Like much, much more simply like, Hey, yeah. And well, yeah. And especially on

926
01:08:49,370 --> 01:08:52,430
Nostrix, it's like, I don't even need to ask your lightning address. I can just be like, boop.

927
01:08:52,630 --> 01:08:57,890
Or, you know, any zaps that go to the stream, go to OpenSats. How about that guys for anyone,

928
01:08:58,010 --> 01:09:03,590
for anyone listening? Yeah, they will go to OpenSats. So if you zap your, you are, well,

929
01:09:03,650 --> 01:09:07,490
you are zapping me and I am the middleman, but luckily you guys can verify exactly and make sure

930
01:09:07,490 --> 01:09:09,230
that I sent every last sat.

931
01:09:09,250 --> 01:09:11,570
I don't know that they could actually verify it,

932
01:09:11,710 --> 01:09:13,230
but we trust you.

933
01:09:13,790 --> 01:09:14,450
Yeah, okay.

934
01:09:14,570 --> 01:09:16,910
Well, I'll pause the screenshot or something like that.

935
01:09:16,910 --> 01:09:18,670
You need to have some level of trust in society.

936
01:09:18,850 --> 01:09:20,770
You can't remove all trust from society.

937
01:09:21,450 --> 01:09:22,210
That's one of the reasons

938
01:09:22,210 --> 01:09:24,170
why strong local communities are so awesome

939
01:09:24,170 --> 01:09:25,810
is because they're high trust societies.

940
01:09:27,050 --> 01:09:29,290
So I think it's important

941
01:09:29,290 --> 01:09:30,550
that we have trust minimized tech,

942
01:09:30,650 --> 01:09:33,690
but also I think people get stuck in it a little bit.

943
01:09:35,450 --> 01:09:37,290
There needs to be some level of trust.

944
01:09:37,490 --> 01:09:47,090
Do you think we're seeing now or we'll start to see more of a resurgence in like small, local, decentralized?

945
01:09:47,470 --> 01:09:49,750
Like at least in America, like it feels like we are.

946
01:09:49,930 --> 01:09:51,210
Is that your vibe as well?

947
01:09:52,690 --> 01:09:52,830
Yeah.

948
01:09:52,830 --> 01:10:03,270
And I mean, I think, I mean, to not glaze Elon too much, like the fact that Starlink exists is fucking huge.

949
01:10:03,270 --> 01:10:07,150
it really opens up

950
01:10:07,150 --> 01:10:09,510
the potential of where

951
01:10:09,510 --> 01:10:11,350
you can live and raise your family

952
01:10:11,350 --> 01:10:12,230
and gives people

953
01:10:12,230 --> 01:10:14,730
effectively more freedom of movement

954
01:10:14,730 --> 01:10:16,990
over which jurisdictions they want to be in

955
01:10:16,990 --> 01:10:19,050
and I think in America specifically

956
01:10:19,050 --> 01:10:23,130
we can go back and forth

957
01:10:23,130 --> 01:10:24,930
on whether or not voting is rigged in America

958
01:10:24,930 --> 01:10:27,310
one of the issues is impossible to verify

959
01:10:27,310 --> 01:10:30,970
but the real vote that

960
01:10:30,970 --> 01:10:32,770
is not rigged that

961
01:10:33,270 --> 01:10:38,070
is actually substantial and tangible is voting with your feet and moving. And it's really,

962
01:10:38,070 --> 01:10:41,910
really, it's not really easy. Moving is hard. Moving is fucking difficult,

963
01:10:42,870 --> 01:10:47,110
especially if you're leaving friends and family. But moving with your feet and choosing a different

964
01:10:47,110 --> 01:10:51,990
jurisdiction is like one of the single best parts of America and makes this country great.

965
01:10:51,990 --> 01:10:55,750
And I think a lot of people are questioning themselves, like, do I want to raise my family

966
01:10:55,750 --> 01:11:01,430
in a city or near a city? Do I want to go to a smaller community where I know my neighbors,

967
01:11:01,430 --> 01:11:05,530
where I can like, I'm not just shaking my farmer's hand,

968
01:11:05,530 --> 01:11:26,388
like my farmer is my neighbor and I you know I have chickens and I have a garden I can be self I think that much more robust And I think if you want to take the optimistic path technology enables not to like freedom technology just doesn empower the individuals

969
01:11:26,548 --> 01:11:29,968
It also empowers these small communities in a big way because it empowers the individuals.

970
01:11:29,968 --> 01:11:50,368
You can imagine situations where small communities are basically able to interact with global trade for things they need when that wasn't possible before the internet, before digitally native, free-to-money like Bitcoin, before things like drones or 3D printing and local AI and whatnot.

971
01:11:51,088 --> 01:11:53,888
So there could be some really interesting aspects there.

972
01:11:53,888 --> 01:11:55,308
You mentioned sci-fi.

973
01:11:55,688 --> 01:11:59,488
One of my favorite books is Damon by Daniel Suarez.

974
01:11:59,968 --> 01:12:02,248
I think he wrote in 2009.

975
01:12:02,488 --> 01:12:03,548
He wrote it a long time ago.

976
01:12:03,608 --> 01:12:04,528
I read it a long time ago.

977
01:12:04,548 --> 01:12:06,328
I read it before Bitcoin, before Noster.

978
01:12:06,888 --> 01:12:08,208
Then he has a sequel, Freedom.

979
01:12:08,388 --> 01:12:10,928
And without any spoilers, he never mentions Bitcoin or Noster.

980
01:12:12,548 --> 01:12:14,948
But like Bitcoin, Noster, open source AI,

981
01:12:15,168 --> 01:12:18,388
basically he sets up the template for strong local communities

982
01:12:18,388 --> 01:12:20,328
operating using those technologies.

983
01:12:22,508 --> 01:12:24,968
And that's probably one of my most optimistic timelines

984
01:12:24,968 --> 01:12:25,868
that we could go down.

985
01:12:25,868 --> 01:12:32,968
on the self-hosted piece i'm gonna i'm gonna check that i have not i have not read that um i have to

986
01:12:32,968 --> 01:12:38,828
go down that daniel suarez daniel suarez okay nice i've been recently uh i went through all

987
01:12:38,828 --> 01:12:46,108
of the dungeon crawler carl audiobooks uh it's it's pretty incredible uh it sounds really weird

988
01:12:46,108 --> 01:12:50,168
if you haven't heard of it lynn alden recommended it to me so i knew it was going to be good but i

989
01:12:50,168 --> 01:12:55,568
didn't realize how good and i've been on more recently well shout out to lynn uh for her book

990
01:12:55,568 --> 01:12:57,888
which Carla and I narrated, The Stolgard Instant.

991
01:12:58,608 --> 01:12:59,428
I haven't listened yet.

992
01:13:00,488 --> 01:13:01,988
Listen or read either way.

993
01:13:01,988 --> 01:13:02,528
I don't do.

994
01:13:02,648 --> 01:13:04,068
Honestly, I don't do audiobooks.

995
01:13:04,108 --> 01:13:04,488
I'm old-fashioned.

996
01:13:04,488 --> 01:13:05,348
I like reading.

997
01:13:05,568 --> 01:13:05,788
Okay.

998
01:13:06,048 --> 01:13:07,948
But the fact that you and Carla,

999
01:13:08,668 --> 01:13:11,408
the fact that one friend wrote the book

1000
01:13:11,408 --> 01:13:13,708
and then two other friends narrated the book

1001
01:13:13,708 --> 01:13:15,528
kind of makes me want to listen to the audiobook.

1002
01:13:16,548 --> 01:13:17,388
Give it a shot.

1003
01:13:17,388 --> 01:13:18,328
Just for the vibes alone.

1004
01:13:18,888 --> 01:13:20,988
Well, you know, what I love about sci-fi,

1005
01:13:21,148 --> 01:13:22,708
and Lynn does this very well,

1006
01:13:22,748 --> 01:13:25,268
because it's near future sci-fi, you know?

1007
01:13:25,268 --> 01:13:28,888
Like it's, it's not so, we're not talking thousands or hundreds of years.

1008
01:13:29,348 --> 01:13:32,228
Exactly. Yeah. It's like, so it's, it's, it feels more real.

1009
01:13:32,228 --> 01:13:34,288
Like it feels like something you could see in your lifetime.

1010
01:13:35,088 --> 01:13:38,068
And I just, I find sci-fi to be such an interesting,

1011
01:13:38,308 --> 01:13:43,448
like how much of actual science ends up kind of almost being led by science

1012
01:13:43,448 --> 01:13:44,368
fiction in some ways.

1013
01:13:44,368 --> 01:13:48,008
Like some author wrote about something in the 1960s and you know,

1014
01:13:48,028 --> 01:13:51,568
somebody like Elon Musk is like, well, that sounds like a cool idea.

1015
01:13:51,628 --> 01:13:53,648
Let's do that. You know, like it's just, it's, it's,

1016
01:13:53,648 --> 01:13:59,968
it's amazing to see that kind of stuff come to fruition in reality uh but yeah i'll have to check

1017
01:13:59,968 --> 01:14:03,728
that out i wanted to ask you though on the self-hosted side uh because you mentioned this

1018
01:14:03,728 --> 01:14:07,248
when we were on the bitcast stream i think you mentioned something about your stack you want you

1019
01:14:07,248 --> 01:14:11,008
want to talk about that a little bit just in terms of i think you mentioned you have a start nine

1020
01:14:11,008 --> 01:14:16,448
you've got like you're a whole basically entirely self-hosted stack both for comms i think you said

1021
01:14:16,448 --> 01:14:20,608
you were running local llms as well is that correct and like some other things i mean you're obviously

1022
01:14:20,608 --> 01:14:23,168
running a Bitcoin node, that's a given.

1023
01:14:23,448 --> 01:14:24,768
But can you talk about that a little bit?

1024
01:14:26,928 --> 01:14:28,068
So it's interesting, right?

1025
01:14:28,128 --> 01:14:32,728
So like I, if you like go back on my journey

1026
01:14:32,728 --> 01:14:34,668
when I was much younger,

1027
01:14:36,168 --> 01:14:38,508
we had the financial collapse in 2008,

1028
01:14:38,828 --> 01:14:42,368
which was like, okay, you can't trust the bankers.

1029
01:14:42,648 --> 01:14:44,588
And like, you can't trust any of the talking heads.

1030
01:14:45,028 --> 01:14:45,968
You know, like everyone said, like,

1031
01:14:46,628 --> 01:14:48,848
I mean, people that were paying attention, sure.

1032
01:14:48,848 --> 01:14:52,948
like you know everyone thinks they're in the big short and that they can see things ahead of time

1033
01:14:52,948 --> 01:14:56,668
but most of the talking heads were caught completely off guard everyone pretends they're adults in the

1034
01:14:56,668 --> 01:15:01,128
room had no fucking idea so i was like you can't trust the financial system so it was like piece

1035
01:15:01,128 --> 01:15:04,968
number one that set set up my bitcoin journey but i was like you can trust the big tech companies

1036
01:15:04,968 --> 01:15:10,428
and this noting came out in 2013 and was like you can't trust a big company big tech companies

1037
01:15:10,428 --> 01:15:14,868
they're all complicit i was like fuck i was like so where is hope and so hope is open source

1038
01:15:14,868 --> 01:15:18,068
open-source software and hardware and technology, right?

1039
01:15:18,228 --> 01:15:22,148
Empowering individuals to not have to trust a centralized third party.

1040
01:15:22,788 --> 01:15:23,908
That's where hope is.

1041
01:15:23,988 --> 01:15:30,628
And since then, I've focused most of my life's mission on that,

1042
01:15:30,748 --> 01:15:32,088
on accelerating that movement.

1043
01:15:32,748 --> 01:15:35,648
And I strongly believe there's two pieces there.

1044
01:15:35,648 --> 01:15:39,108
I think there's stuff that is in the commons that is, like,

1045
01:15:39,128 --> 01:15:40,628
almost impossible to monetize.

1046
01:15:41,008 --> 01:15:42,668
And that's why OpenSats exists.

1047
01:15:42,788 --> 01:15:43,788
Let's accelerate that.

1048
01:15:44,868 --> 01:15:48,568
But I'm still a capitalist, and I think capitalism scales the best.

1049
01:15:48,748 --> 01:15:56,868
And part of the reason why I believe that even more strongly now is because I'm the main person raising money for OpenSaaS, and I make no money from it.

1050
01:15:56,908 --> 01:15:59,128
And it's a pain in the fucking ass, and it's not sustainable.

1051
01:15:59,208 --> 01:16:00,748
It's very difficult to do.

1052
01:16:01,388 --> 01:16:02,888
It's not an easy thing to do.

1053
01:16:03,428 --> 01:16:06,368
OpenSaaS has received thousands of applications every year.

1054
01:16:07,028 --> 01:16:12,368
So there's a bunch of people that don't like me because applications have been denied, even though we've approved over 400.

1055
01:16:13,368 --> 01:16:19,628
And I say to all those people, it's like, okay, well, if you have your pet project that you wish is funded, like go raise money for that.

1056
01:16:19,868 --> 01:16:21,508
And you'll see how difficult it is.

1057
01:16:21,548 --> 01:16:23,248
And you'll see how difficult that path is.

1058
01:16:23,508 --> 01:16:35,928
And even though OpenSats has been incredibly successful and we're sending out a million dollars worth of Bitcoin every month, it pales in comparison to the amount of capital that we've been able to tap on the 1031 side with investment for profit capital.

1059
01:16:36,348 --> 01:16:40,468
And the reason I say this is a very long winded is why we're the largest investor in Star9.

1060
01:16:40,468 --> 01:16:45,808
Most investors won't touch something that's an open source stack

1061
01:16:45,808 --> 01:16:48,608
Like you can use Start9's entire stack

1062
01:16:48,608 --> 01:16:51,948
Without paying them a dime by just flashing it onto any old computer

1063
01:16:51,948 --> 01:16:55,428
Most investors look at that and be like, you're retarded, that's horrible

1064
01:16:55,428 --> 01:16:58,768
There's no way we're going to be able to make money off of that

1065
01:16:58,768 --> 01:17:00,208
But the dream is there

1066
01:17:00,208 --> 01:17:03,008
Like if you can have profitable open source businesses

1067
01:17:03,008 --> 01:17:05,008
They never have to raise donation funding again

1068
01:17:05,008 --> 01:17:06,948
They can scale like crazy, right?

1069
01:17:06,968 --> 01:17:08,368
And they can compound on top of each other

1070
01:17:08,368 --> 01:17:33,128
So that's why we're invested in Start9. That's why I'm a user in Start9. And so I do run a Start9 server at home, which ironically, by the way, I didn't buy their hardware. Their hardware is fantastic and is actually extremely well priced now because Matt Hill, the co-founder of Start9, sold a bunch of Bitcoin at the top and bought RAM with it, which was a great trade.

1071
01:17:33,128 --> 01:17:37,388
so his great trade is kind of subsidizing the price

1072
01:17:37,388 --> 01:17:39,288
so you actually get a pretty good deal right now

1073
01:17:39,288 --> 01:17:40,388
if you buy their hardware

1074
01:17:40,388 --> 01:17:43,608
but I just flashed it on an old Linux computer I have

1075
01:17:43,608 --> 01:17:45,628
so I'm running that

1076
01:17:45,628 --> 01:17:47,168
and they're coming out with a router

1077
01:17:47,168 --> 01:17:49,208
and so I'm beta testing their router

1078
01:17:49,208 --> 01:17:51,168
right now it's Bitcoin only pre-order

1079
01:17:51,168 --> 01:17:53,648
you can find it at router.start9.com

1080
01:17:53,648 --> 01:17:56,588
and I'm like preemptively testing it

1081
01:17:56,588 --> 01:17:59,268
before public release in the summer

1082
01:17:59,268 --> 01:18:05,608
and that is running a nearly fully open hardware stack

1083
01:18:05,608 --> 01:18:07,128
with open source software on it

1084
01:18:07,128 --> 01:18:11,688
and then lets you easily run WireGuard VPNs on it

1085
01:18:11,688 --> 01:18:12,728
and different profiles on it.

1086
01:18:12,748 --> 01:18:15,008
So like right now, this stream is running through that router.

1087
01:18:15,168 --> 01:18:16,248
It's running through Starlink.

1088
01:18:17,008 --> 01:18:19,168
And then from Starlink, it's running to that router.

1089
01:18:19,548 --> 01:18:22,108
And then on that router, it's running through Obscura VPN,

1090
01:18:22,328 --> 01:18:23,588
which you can pay for with Bitcoin.

1091
01:18:23,988 --> 01:18:25,268
So that's two hops of VPN.

1092
01:18:25,488 --> 01:18:27,608
So one hop is Obscura, the other hop is MulVad,

1093
01:18:27,688 --> 01:18:29,048
and then it's coming to you guys.

1094
01:18:29,268 --> 01:18:30,328
And it works really well.

1095
01:18:30,468 --> 01:18:32,428
Like everything in my home is running through this thing.

1096
01:18:34,208 --> 01:18:36,268
On the open source AI side,

1097
01:18:38,708 --> 01:18:41,048
and to be clear, there's still caveats.

1098
01:18:41,168 --> 01:18:43,228
Like I was recording RHR the other day live

1099
01:18:43,228 --> 01:18:48,648
and one of Obscura's VPN servers went offline

1100
01:18:48,648 --> 01:18:49,928
and I got cut from the stream

1101
01:18:49,928 --> 01:18:52,128
and I had to fix it and rejoin.

1102
01:18:52,188 --> 01:18:55,128
But anyway, still pretty great.

1103
01:18:55,868 --> 01:18:57,988
On the open source LLM side,

1104
01:18:57,988 --> 01:19:05,408
Look, I think the only reason to really do it is to improve your skill at this point is to improve your skills.

1105
01:19:07,148 --> 01:19:09,608
It's not to say it's definitely not to save money.

1106
01:19:09,868 --> 01:19:15,208
And it's for the freedom focus elements because things are accelerating quickly.

1107
01:19:15,928 --> 01:19:21,608
Anything you can self host is much less powerful than the stuff that is hosted.

1108
01:19:22,588 --> 01:19:26,728
I wouldn't be surprised if we see the same path with like ASICs kind of come out and stuff.

1109
01:19:27,348 --> 01:19:29,648
So I think a lot of this hardware could become obsolete.

1110
01:19:29,848 --> 01:19:33,728
Like you end up paying like $10,000 for hardware that would become like more or less obsolete.

1111
01:19:34,328 --> 01:19:42,828
Not completely obsolete like Bitcoin mining hardware, but that you wish you maybe had to spend the $10,000 if you're trying to do it to save money.

1112
01:19:42,828 --> 01:19:57,628
And I think the single best way to play around with these things right now, especially if cost is an issue, is to use stuff like PPQ.ai, where you pay with Bitcoin and you can pick any model out there.

1113
01:19:57,688 --> 01:20:04,348
The open source models, some are encrypted and secure enclaves on T's in the cloud.

1114
01:20:04,568 --> 01:20:06,748
So you have some stronger privacy guarantees.

1115
01:20:07,168 --> 01:20:09,008
You can also use all the top tier models.

1116
01:20:09,508 --> 01:20:12,288
And then in that situation, it's kind of like a VPN level of privacy.

1117
01:20:12,288 --> 01:20:17,068
It's like a proxy privacy, and it allows you to flip and move between them very easily.

1118
01:20:17,288 --> 01:20:18,348
There's other options.

1119
01:20:18,468 --> 01:20:22,168
Open Router exists, but they only accept dollars or USDC.

1120
01:20:23,308 --> 01:20:35,728
Venice exists, which has way more users than PPQ and also accepts Bitcoin, but also has a shitcoin attached to it that isn't necessary, but you might not want to use it just for that reason.

1121
01:20:35,728 --> 01:20:39,488
But that idea of being able to switch on the fly

1122
01:20:39,488 --> 01:20:53,946
between any model that available I think is very empowering to people right now And it doesn lock you in And the worst position you can be in I think right now is like you move your small business over to like a fully integrated Claude stack

1123
01:20:53,946 --> 01:20:56,446
where you're using like all their proprietary software and everything.

1124
01:20:56,786 --> 01:21:00,186
And then Claude pulls the plug and your whole system grinds to a halt.

1125
01:21:00,566 --> 01:21:06,886
If you're using something like PPQ or local models, you can switch on the fly.

1126
01:21:06,886 --> 01:21:10,606
Well, with local models, you just can't get cut off, which is fucking awesome.

1127
01:21:10,666 --> 01:21:11,426
and empowering.

1128
01:21:11,746 --> 01:21:13,286
But with something like PBQ,

1129
01:21:13,446 --> 01:21:13,766
you can just,

1130
01:21:13,946 --> 01:21:14,666
Claude cuts you off,

1131
01:21:14,746 --> 01:21:16,046
you can switch to ChatGPT.

1132
01:21:16,466 --> 01:21:17,366
ChatGPT cuts you off,

1133
01:21:17,426 --> 01:21:19,266
you can switch to GLM, you know.

1134
01:21:19,966 --> 01:21:22,406
And you can just keep moving on the fly

1135
01:21:22,406 --> 01:21:24,866
and not be beholden to someone else

1136
01:21:24,866 --> 01:21:26,286
and get stuck in that vendor lock-in.

1137
01:21:26,326 --> 01:21:26,986
Because a lot of people

1138
01:21:26,986 --> 01:21:28,426
are going to get stuck in the vendor lock-in

1139
01:21:28,426 --> 01:21:31,746
just like we saw with the last phase of big tech

1140
01:21:31,746 --> 01:21:32,886
where you're stuck in, you know,

1141
01:21:32,986 --> 01:21:34,106
G Suite or something

1142
01:21:34,106 --> 01:21:36,926
and you can't move easily.

1143
01:21:38,226 --> 01:21:40,286
And like, this isn't theoretical either.

1144
01:21:40,286 --> 01:21:46,566
again we mentioned this earlier but it's like anthropic just pulled the plug instantly on you

1145
01:21:46,566 --> 01:21:50,786
know for forever like that's it's it's trivial for them it's not and they don't have to ask anyone

1146
01:21:50,786 --> 01:21:54,626
uh you have to ask for their permission they do not have to ask for yours so it's like i think

1147
01:21:54,626 --> 01:21:59,886
that's that lock-in piece is really important yeah the perfect example the perfect example there by

1148
01:21:59,886 --> 01:22:09,086
the way is so i i've always found like learning by doing is the best way um and you know tease

1149
01:22:09,086 --> 01:22:15,526
around maybe other people aren't that case so i built a full ai news desk um called citadelwire.com

1150
01:22:15,526 --> 01:22:22,606
um and it's run by three different ai agents um running all they're all running top tier models

1151
01:22:22,606 --> 01:22:30,206
and when anthropic pulled the plug the the top editor was running fable um and i saw that they

1152
01:22:30,206 --> 01:22:35,246
pulled the plug and i went to check on it to make sure it was still working and it just had auto

1153
01:22:35,246 --> 01:22:39,466
I had already set it up in a way that I just auto-switched to GPT-55.

1154
01:22:40,966 --> 01:22:42,666
So there was literally zero downtime.

1155
01:22:42,986 --> 01:22:45,246
And I actually didn't, it was good that I was paying attention,

1156
01:22:45,366 --> 01:22:46,846
but also it didn't matter that I was paying attention

1157
01:22:46,846 --> 01:22:50,606
because the system was set up in a way that it didn't have a central point of failure there.

1158
01:22:52,446 --> 01:22:53,606
I mean, that's huge.

1159
01:22:53,686 --> 01:22:56,406
I did see, I have not checked it out yet, but I did see you post about it.

1160
01:22:56,406 --> 01:22:58,146
I think I saw you post about it on X, actually.

1161
01:22:58,546 --> 01:23:00,146
But, you know, I'm not going to hold it against you.

1162
01:23:00,146 --> 01:23:01,286
I posted about it on Nostar a lot of times.

1163
01:23:01,286 --> 01:23:02,746
I know, I know, I know, I know.

1164
01:23:02,786 --> 01:23:03,526
I'm just giving you shit.

1165
01:23:03,646 --> 01:23:04,186
I'm just giving you shit.

1166
01:23:04,186 --> 01:23:11,666
And it actually uses Nostr natively to split up, like the agents post the news to Nostr.

1167
01:23:11,806 --> 01:23:15,566
And then I have a centralized website that's effectively a Nostr app.

1168
01:23:17,246 --> 01:23:26,726
And I think that's a cool piece, by the way, on the Nostr point is that you're going to see like a bunch of purpose-built, very niche Nostr apps.

1169
01:23:26,866 --> 01:23:30,326
Like in this case, it's literally just a Nostr app to read a single Nostr endpub.

1170
01:23:30,786 --> 01:23:31,806
Like that's all it does.

1171
01:23:31,806 --> 01:23:33,166
You don't even sign in.

1172
01:23:33,166 --> 01:23:37,806
like no signing required you're literally just going to the website and you're viewing a nostre

1173
01:23:37,806 --> 01:23:40,906
you're viewing a nostre account you don't even know you're viewing a nostre account

1174
01:23:40,906 --> 01:23:44,646
unless you know what you're watching and as a result everything's hashed and signed and stored

1175
01:23:44,646 --> 01:23:50,486
on multiple relays right it pretty cool it's huge and i wonder how much of that is going to be what

1176
01:23:50,486 --> 01:23:54,566
we what we see i agree with your point earlier and i think that was actually i haven't heard it

1177
01:23:54,566 --> 01:24:01,486
phrased that way that the social layer is actually huge like it's not just a frivolity or like just

1178
01:24:01,486 --> 01:24:05,946
like a fun thing to have that it's actually very crucial in terms of enabling some of those other

1179
01:24:05,946 --> 01:24:10,486
use cases like you can't have the web of trust without the social layer like you that it's

1180
01:24:10,486 --> 01:24:14,826
literally not possible so i think that those it's good framing there but i do wonder how much of

1181
01:24:14,826 --> 01:24:19,746
this stuff ends up being just hey we're like like bitchat you know people don't need to know that

1182
01:24:19,746 --> 01:24:25,246
it's like now is using noster in various ways to but see like bitchat's an interesting right

1183
01:24:25,246 --> 01:24:44,606
BitChats is an interesting one, right? Because it's a noble project. It's a project that has a mission that I love, right? Which is censorship resistant, robust communications, mesh nets. It's something that's super cool that people have struggled to exist and make network effect and whatnot.

1184
01:24:45,566 --> 01:24:49,546
And it's a great case study of how easy it is to build on Nostra.

1185
01:24:50,306 --> 01:24:52,906
But it doesn't actually help Nostra in any way.

1186
01:24:53,646 --> 01:24:55,186
And maybe that's a controversial opinion.

1187
01:24:55,726 --> 01:24:58,126
But if anything, it's almost parasitic to Nostra.

1188
01:24:58,246 --> 01:25:02,626
It's like using Nostra relays that people are running, not for BitChat.

1189
01:25:03,186 --> 01:25:06,666
Like most of the people that the relays are using, that's not why they exist.

1190
01:25:06,666 --> 01:25:13,646
And they're not building any, it's not adding to the network effect.

1191
01:25:13,646 --> 01:25:17,866
It doesn't because it's all disposable identities, which is great.

1192
01:25:17,986 --> 01:25:19,966
They're building something completely different.

1193
01:25:21,286 --> 01:25:37,566
But the fact that they have millions of BitChat users doesn't really translate to someone who's using Wisp in the way that if someone's using Wisp and you're using Nostra or Primal, like every new Wisp user benefits Nostra and Primal users.

1194
01:25:37,786 --> 01:25:40,626
Every new BitChat user is almost completely irrelevant to them.

1195
01:25:40,626 --> 01:25:48,206
it's in the chat is like cypherpunk as hell though like yeah 100 you know it's it's you know that i

1196
01:25:48,206 --> 01:25:54,066
totally agree with the point there it's like but that was my larger point that like there are i

1197
01:25:54,066 --> 01:25:58,806
think going to be a lot of really cool things built that may not help quote noster adoption

1198
01:25:58,806 --> 01:26:02,506
i still say noster by the way because i say it correctly um but you know i'm not gonna hold the

1199
01:26:02,506 --> 01:26:10,086
thing against you but they don't necessarily help don't necessarily help like the adoption from an

1200
01:26:10,086 --> 01:26:15,566
awareness standpoint or even from a like social layer adoption standpoint but use that protocol

1201
01:26:15,566 --> 01:26:22,606
in such a way that it creates a really fantastic value add in whatever that other app is like in

1202
01:26:22,606 --> 01:26:27,006
the case of bid chat right like and that like that that's just that's just it's just fucking

1203
01:26:27,006 --> 01:26:32,886
cool like it's cool that jack i guess my point is nostr helps nostr helps bid chat but bid chat

1204
01:26:32,886 --> 01:26:39,566
doesn't really help nostr that's fair that's fair and jack and callie if you're listening to this

1205
01:26:39,566 --> 01:26:40,506
No, I'm kidding.

1206
01:26:41,226 --> 01:26:43,866
I mean, Jack and Callie have done plenty to help Noster.

1207
01:26:44,326 --> 01:26:44,666
I know.

1208
01:26:44,946 --> 01:26:45,806
To be absolutely clear.

1209
01:26:45,906 --> 01:26:47,486
I just don't think Big Chat was one of them.

1210
01:26:47,866 --> 01:26:52,146
Yeah, more than a vast majority, that's for sure.

1211
01:26:52,586 --> 01:26:54,786
But Odell, I've enjoyed this thoroughly, man.

1212
01:26:54,886 --> 01:26:56,406
I appreciate your time very much.

1213
01:26:57,706 --> 01:27:00,226
First of all, and thank you to everybody who joined in on Noster.

1214
01:27:00,766 --> 01:27:07,406
You're on Zap.stream or wherever you're watching this, Primal or any of the other apps that support the live streaming function.

1215
01:27:08,146 --> 01:27:08,946
Thank you, guys.

1216
01:27:08,946 --> 01:27:13,586
appreciate appreciate the zaps they will all go to open sats after this and there's a decent number

1217
01:27:13,586 --> 01:27:18,806
of them so appreciate you guys sending your hard-earned sats here odell where do you want to

1218
01:27:18,806 --> 01:27:23,546
send people anything you want to have them check out anything new on the docket for you

1219
01:27:23,546 --> 01:27:31,826
uh thanks for having me this is fun um been a long time coming it's a pleasure i know and uh

1220
01:27:31,826 --> 01:27:32,706
I don't know.

1221
01:27:32,806 --> 01:27:36,766
I have my personal webpages, odell.xyz.

1222
01:27:36,966 --> 01:27:38,606
It links to my Nostra account.

1223
01:27:38,746 --> 01:27:39,626
It links to X.

1224
01:27:40,926 --> 01:27:42,866
It links to all the projects I'm working on.

1225
01:27:42,946 --> 01:27:49,666
Open Sats, 1031, Bitcoin Policy Institute, Bitcoin Park, SimpleX Foundation now.

1226
01:27:51,546 --> 01:27:52,446
So check all those out.

1227
01:27:53,046 --> 01:27:54,446
And then check out citadelwire.com.

1228
01:27:54,526 --> 01:27:54,906
It's fun.

1229
01:27:54,986 --> 01:27:55,686
It's a passion project.

1230
01:27:55,806 --> 01:27:56,646
I built it for myself.

1231
01:27:57,106 --> 01:27:59,066
I'm spending about $100 a day on that thing.

1232
01:27:59,066 --> 01:28:00,726
I'm not trying to make a profit on it.

1233
01:28:01,006 --> 01:28:01,146
Damn.

1234
01:28:01,826 --> 01:28:06,886
But I wanted to cut through all the bullshit and not get stuck doom scrolling and stuff,

1235
01:28:06,946 --> 01:28:10,066
but still be able to pay attention on what's relevant out there.

1236
01:28:10,126 --> 01:28:11,126
So that's why that exists.

1237
01:28:11,186 --> 01:28:14,746
And also I wanted to learn how these different AI tools work well together

1238
01:28:14,746 --> 01:28:22,306
and try and make them stable and effective for improving my life and improving my productivity.

1239
01:28:23,086 --> 01:28:24,586
So feedback is appreciated.

1240
01:28:25,006 --> 01:28:30,106
I mean, interesting thing, over 35,000 visitors have hit citylilowire.com, which is pretty wild.

1241
01:28:30,106 --> 01:28:36,466
it might have better user retention than all the other Noster apps,

1242
01:28:37,126 --> 01:28:38,406
except for BitChat.

1243
01:28:39,846 --> 01:28:42,286
But yeah, and it's like such a simple thing.

1244
01:28:43,226 --> 01:28:45,786
Now I will take the time to go check it out.

1245
01:28:45,946 --> 01:28:49,346
Thank you for building and for burning the tokens for the greater good.

1246
01:28:49,846 --> 01:28:50,606
Appreciate your time.

1247
01:28:50,766 --> 01:28:54,926
Thank you to everybody again for the zaps and for joining us here on Noster.

1248
01:28:55,486 --> 01:28:56,906
And if you're listening to this after the fact,

1249
01:28:57,266 --> 01:28:58,726
it's because you're not on Noster.

1250
01:28:58,726 --> 01:29:00,026
So get on there.

1251
01:29:00,086 --> 01:29:03,846
Even though Odell went back to X, that doesn't mean he's lost faith, guys.

1252
01:29:04,206 --> 01:29:06,826
So the rumors are very overblown.

1253
01:29:07,406 --> 01:29:08,366
Appreciate your time, dude.

1254
01:29:08,486 --> 01:29:08,906
Good chatting.

1255
01:29:09,626 --> 01:29:09,906
Cheers.

1256
01:29:11,426 --> 01:29:12,286
All right, I'm going to go.

1257
01:29:18,886 --> 01:29:23,586
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast.

1258
01:29:24,246 --> 01:29:28,206
Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening.

1259
01:29:28,206 --> 01:29:32,526
and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.

1260
01:29:32,886 --> 01:29:39,206
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash walker and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin.

1261
01:29:39,626 --> 01:29:43,066
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America

1262
01:29:43,066 --> 01:29:47,906
and find this podcast on X and Instagram at titcoinpodcast.

1263
01:29:48,046 --> 01:29:50,586
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links.

1264
01:29:50,586 --> 01:29:55,406
Head to substack.com slash at Walker America to get episodes emailed to you

1265
01:29:55,406 --> 01:29:59,206
and head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else.

1266
01:29:59,746 --> 01:30:03,306
Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant.

1267
01:30:03,806 --> 01:30:08,646
So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to The Bitcoin Podcast.

1268
01:30:09,546 --> 01:30:11,966
Until next time, stay free.