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fiat and the USD is the foundation of all international trade, right, of all international

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transactions. For countries like South Africa, when we were not in the gray list, it was easier to

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transact. I could do stuff. Once we got on the gray list, it became harder to transact. And I

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once got my bank account frozen, trying to buy rights to a book. Ultimately, that's where I was

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okay, I cannot be using fiat for anything that I'm passionate about, because the inconvenience of

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having to go to a bank and figure out why your account was frozen, and then continue doing the

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things you set out to do with the budget you had, or now the budget you no longer have access to,

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is very hard and it's time wasted. And fun fact, my triangle is also a result of that bank account

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being frozen. I was like, oh, do I spend time figuring out and getting my account unfrozen,

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or do I build something else? Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs. My name is Walker,

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and this is the Bitcoin podcast. The Bitcoin block height is 830747. And the value of one

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Bitcoin is still on Bitcoin. Today's episode is Bitcoin Talk, where I talk with my guest about

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Bitcoin and whatever else comes up. Today, that guest is Kodatsu Nako, who developed Machankura,

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which allows anyone with a feature phone to use Bitcoin, no internet required. He's also developing

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a new solution that will allow anyone to self-custody Bitcoin using only their SIM card.

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I highly recommend you follow him and check out his work. You can find all the links in the show

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notes. He's building real solutions to real problems that a lot of us in the western world

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may not realize exist unless we step outside of our comfortable bubble of financial privilege.

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As always, you can watch the video version of this episode on Rumble, YouTube, or X by searching

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out Walker America, or listen on Fountain.fm or wherever you get your podcasts by searching for

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the Bitcoin podcast. If you listen to the Bitcoin podcast on Fountain, consider giving this show a

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boost or creating a clip of something you found interesting. And if you are a Bitcoin only company

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interested in sponsoring another fucking Bitcoin podcast, hit me up on social media or through

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the website BitcoinPodcast.net. Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk with

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Kotatsu Nako. I was looking back and we talked for the first time, I think it was August 2022.

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And I posted some of those interviews. At that point, I also had a much smaller account and

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wasn't running the podcast or anything. So, you know, I put it out through the channels that I

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could, but I was looking forward now that I've kind of built up a little bit more of an audience

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and also have this official, you know, fucking podcast thing going to have this be a nice like

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touch up again, because at that point, you had launched in a few countries, but you were still

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kind of getting much on core rolling, you know, and people were just hearing about it. Now you've

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spoken at, you know, a bunch of conferences, we got a chance to meet in person at adopting Bitcoin

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in 2023. You've been all over, I've seen, you know, like Alex Gladstein has been writing

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and talking a ton about the work that you're doing. And so it's kind of this perfect,

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perfect time for us to talk again, and kind of see where, how things have grown since the last

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time we spoke. And then also, I know you've got some interesting things in the pipeline too.

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So it's, I think it's an opportune time to dig back in to this, this Machankura saga.

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Most definitely, most definitely. And if it's all right with you, I'd love to just start out,

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we're rolling on the recording, so we'll just go right into it if you're good with it. And

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just for anyone that does not know, give kind of an introduction of who are you,

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how did you get here today to be building a solution for Bitcoin that does not require

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internet in Africa? Effectively, I am called Tatsu Nako. And I grew up in Mamelo de Pitoria,

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which is a township in South Africa. And yeah, I grew up as a rapper. I don't know what we talked

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about last time in August 2022. I've totally forgot. And yeah, so I grew up as a rapper in my teenage

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years. And so what were we doing back then? Yeah, rap wasn't one of those things that is embraced

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back in the early 2000s, late 2000s. And yeah, so we were kind of going against the grain. It was

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seen as a foreign entity, yadda yadda, blah, blah, blah. And it was also seen as us trying to be

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Americans. But then fast forward to the year 2023. It's like one of the biggest genres in the country,

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if not the continent, if not the world. And yeah, so I effectively see Bitcoin following

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a similar trajectory, right? And short story to the longest story is that when I finished

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high school, I had a decision to make do I continue down this path of rap music, or do I

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be following more conventional route in university and stuff. So my conclusion, since I've been

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involved in the rap scene since like 14 was that no, I've seen where you know, this road goes,

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and it's not where I'd want to go. It's for now. So let me go something more conventional and

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and I quit rap. And effectively, the following year is when South African rap effectively blew

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up like 2012. There's been a lot of acts before then that were big. But in 2012, that's when you

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couldn't run away from it, like every show, every TV show, everything had rap in it. And some of the

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biggest act were called empty. I think one of the biggest songs called roll up. And as the years

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progress, I was like, damn, I could have stayed a little longer and seen this thing through. And so

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fast forward again, 2017. I'm now a software developer because I was writing computer science.

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And I'm working at the Council for Science and Industrial Research. And Bitcoin comes along.

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And everything about Bitcoin resembled a rap in the early days. So if you don't know what rap was

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like in South Africa, in the early 2000s, you should just figure out what rap was like in America

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in the early 90s, even way before that, maybe even 80s. And I think a lot of people have heard

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a few stories since rap 1050 years. And the last year was a 50 year celebration of hip hop or rap

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music. And yeah, so I'm like, Oh, actually, Bitcoin is going to follow a similar trajectory. And we

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will see way more growth in the Bitcoin side, because it's not a genre of music that is more

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tuned to the youth. But it's actually something a technology that is relevant in all transfers of

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value that could ever occur. So I'm like in 50 years time, where would Bitcoin be? But more

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specifically, where would the early adopters of Bitcoin be? So with rap, I think I was South African

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rap, I was an early adopter, I listened to a lot of other early adopters who knew where this was

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going. There's an artist called Proverb, professional verbalist, he has an album called

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Manuscript, where he's dictating, it's like a manifesto for how big South African hip hop music

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is going to be. He considered his album as part of a collection, you know, it's like a collector's

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item. And yeah, oh, even here, let me just show you this. Something to parallel with that thought is,

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oh, this is a gift I got from Camel, a Bitcoin calendar, you know, hyperbidcoinized Bitcoin

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calendar from 2022. I think he had one in 2021 as well. And yeah, so this is also a collector's

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item. So I'm just gonna put this away, put this safe so that nobody messes it up and 50 years into

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the future, this will be one of those things where we reference like, oh, this is how big

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hip hop is or how big Bitcoin is. And people already knew that the world would get hyperbidcoinized,

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right? That is what the Bitcoin vision or Bitcoin mission is in a way. And yeah, so I think that is

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cool summary for who I am, how I grew up and why I think Bitcoin is a very interesting thing.

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I love that parallel. And I think it's for a lot of people in the, let's say, whatever,

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the Western world, like, you know, America or other countries that are deemed those Western

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nations, you see a lot of people and politicians or just normal people, whatever, who say, oh,

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okay, yeah, you know, this technology Bitcoin thing, yeah, maybe that's cool for some computer

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nerds. But who really needs that? You know, who really needs Bitcoin? We've got the dollar

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and it works just fine. And so why, you know, why are you doing this other thing? That's never

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gonna amount to anything. And then, you know, you see, if you step outside of your bubble,

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which most people probably never will, you see that, oh, wait, there's a whole world out there

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where there are problems that you will never have to deal with as an American or, you know,

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a Canadian or, you know, a French person that the rest of the world has to deal with on a

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daily basis as it relates to money. Can you just talk a little bit about some of the issues in

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Africa that probably a lot of people in the Western world just it's not even on their radar.

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And they think, why would why would you need Bitcoin? Cool. Yeah. Yeah, I think we're in a very weird

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situation where even in developed countries, people start seeing why you would need Bitcoin.

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Right. I think today I saw a tweet by someone. He posted a tweet last year, late last year,

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saying his grandmother paid for coffee using a Coinbase card, so it deducted from her Bitcoin

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stack. Right. And then the quote said, Coinbase closed her account with no reason whatsoever.

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Right. So I think now we are starting to see more and more people in developed countries

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actually seeing the reason for why Bitcoin, even why self-custody, even all these other

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different things. But with regards to things in South Africa, which is a little different from

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the other African countries, because I think we have a little more established financial

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infrastructure. But even there, we are not excluded from the ill that is fiat currency.

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Right. So in our case, South Africa recently got gray listed because apparently the financial

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infrastructure is not doing enough to combat terrorism from the... What was it? The Patriotic

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Act in 2001 or whatever. Right. Yeah, the Patriot Act. In America, we love to name our laws to be

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the exact opposite of what they really are. Yes. Right. So ultimately, that law, then

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subsequent laws after it, seeped into other countries, South Africa being one of them,

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where we also do anti-terrorism, blah, blah, blah, KYC, anti-many, whatever, whatever.

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But we technically have not heard major terroristic threats. I think the biggest one we've had was

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a false flag from the American embassy. Well, I think last year they were saying there was going

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to be a big terrorist act and the Americans advised to leave South Africa or to not go to

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public gatherings or something. And it was a sham because nothing happened and they just created

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a stay over nothing. But that wasn't the biggest. The most latest one was the Nigerian High Commission

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telling Nigerians in South Africa to not go out and watch the Afron semifinal because apparently

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South Africans weren't going to react in, what's the word, friendly manner if they lost the game

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versus Nigeria. Right. Which we did lose, but there's no reports of any harm being done to a

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Nigerian in South Africa because of that loss or any other match we've played and we've played

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against Nigeria a lot of times. By the way, Burnaboy once said he wouldn't come to South Africa

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because of an exchange he had with the South African rap artists over a loss to Nigeria. And

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you know, it's banter, but everyone was in high spirits. Even though Burnaboy, I think earlier

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in his career, he was a local South African for the most part. If you wanted to see Burnaboy perform,

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you could always go to a club across the street and see him perform. That's how much he was in

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South Africa. But anyway, he's, he's cool with the country now. He tried to do a show last year

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whatever. And yeah, so the Patriot Act and all these laws have seeped into other countries, right.

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And other countries are now required to implement them so that they are seen in a good light

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with the rest of the financial world because technically Fiat and the USD is the foundation

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of all international trade, right, of all international transactions. If you're gonna

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send a transaction to another country, it's most likely passing through the IMF or the

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World Bank or something. And so for countries like South Africa, when we were not in the

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gray list, it was easier to transact. I could do stuff. Once we got on the gray list, it became

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harder to transact. And I once got my bank account frozen trying to buy rights to a book,

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book well loved by all bitcoins across the world. So hopefully I have an update regarding that

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sometime soon. But ultimately, that's where I was like, okay, I cannot be using Fiat for anything

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that I'm passionate about, because the inconvenience of having to go to a bank and figure out why

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your account was frozen, and then continue doing the things you set out to do with the budget you

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had, or now the budget you no longer have access to is very hard. And it's time wasted. Right. Oh,

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and fun fact, Machangura is also a result of that bank account being frozen. I was like, oh,

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do I spend time figuring out and getting my account unfrozen, or do I build something else?

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And yeah, so I built Machangura, and you know, one thing led to another. But even outside the

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situation in South Africa, other African countries have it worse, like the CFA, the Colonial Franc,

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where every former, okay, former air quotes, they still French colonies sends a portion of every

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transaction back to France. And I think of even a portion of their reserves has to be sent to

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France as well. I think 15% I don't really know the number. So get somebody who's from these countries

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to actually tell you the full story. And as a result, it's much harder for anyone outside of

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these countries to do business in these countries, let alone any African country, because I think we

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have the weirdest business laws. But because you don't speak French, and you are not within

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the systems, their systems, they seem very foreign to everyone else, you gonna have a hard time

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doing anything in these countries. So yeah, that's part of the reason why even to this day,

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a full year later, more than a year later, I still haven't managed to set up Machangura in a French

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speaking African country. I have tried it was a long process that hit a dead end. I was trying to

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get it in Senegal. But I'm thinking I'm gonna just, you know, count my losses and try to go in Marlene

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now. And yeah, so ultimately, even if you do want to, you know, do some of these things and money

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collaborate with businesses, fiat is set up in such a way that it's hard to actually do it. And

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we are not even talking about the wars that are being funded, because fiat allows certain governments

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to fund endless wars, right? Not all governments have the ability to fund endless wars. At most,

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every government has the ability to fund their own structure on its people. And this is like Zimbabwe,

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right? Zimbabwe used to be a great country. But due to sanctions as well, they had to make a decision

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like, okay, do we continue on the trajectory that we had envisioned for our people? Or do we,

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what's the word, reinforce our structures so that we maintain power over the country at the face of

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all these sanctions, right? And African leaders, a lot of African leaders have had sad endings, right?

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Some of them were dictators, cool, but it seems that dictators live longer than anyone else, right?

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Your mama Gaddafi's and the list goes on Thomas Sankara, Petri Slumumba, so on and so forth. So

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Zimbabwe reinforced their own structure and as a result, type inflation happened, so on and so

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forth. And those structures are still in place. So Zimbabwe is not yet at the point where it could

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continue on the trajectory of being great Zimbabwe as ancient times dictate, because sanctions have

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caused so much harm to the economy, caused so much harm to how the people and the outlook of the

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people within the country that it's much better for them to just leave the country, come to South

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Africa for a better living. Even though that better living is something that is way below their

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qualification. I'm quite sure that the South African waiter who used to be a Zimbabwean doctor,

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who used to be a Zimbabwean lawyer, who came to South Africa and worked as a waiter because

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whatever they making of tips is way more than they were making as a doctor or as a lawyer in Zimbabwe.

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So yeah, there's many different things. And of course, those type of people usually over a long

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term start finding something else to do outside being a waiter is just their first step in the door

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and then they do better things and bigger things as well. So yeah, so for me, things like that,

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the March harsher consequences of fiat currencies, because you end up with people

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seeing other people as mouths to feed and not necessarily as fully functioning human beings

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that could be productive for the society that they may find themselves. So yeah, that similar story

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to the former UFC champion Francis Ngono going to Europe and becoming the champ in the UFC and

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in the UFC and then now he's transitioning to boxing. But even he said he wouldn't want anyone in

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his family to go through what he went through to make it into Europe and then to make it as a fighter

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because it's one of those things where one bad incident and then you're down the worst path ever.

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Right. And even getting to Europe, there's a whole ocean between Africa and Europe and you are not

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going to be on a cruise, you're going to be on a rickety boat and so on and so forth. But yeah,

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so for me, one of the biggest issues with fiat is that it creates a situation where people are

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seen as mouths to feed and not as minds that could be inventing, creating and being productive in

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the economy of the society. Well, and I understand being against immigration, but it would be great

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if that person could be great where they are born. Right. But today, it's a lottery if you're born in

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the wrong country. Sorry, you're going to have to hold that for the rest of your life. Even with

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like Bitcoin and the whole coin methodology. It's great. It motivates people, but there's some people

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who are just born in the wrong country that would never become whole coiners, regardless of how

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talented they are, especially if they choose to stay within the countries they were born. Right.

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For them to be a whole coiner move to a better country, because in the country you are born in

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Syria, Sudan, Zimbabwe, so on and so forth. You are not going to be able to get paid what you

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think you are worth. And there's an open source Bitcoin developer whose name starts with a Z and

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as followed by a few random characters who got a crown from spiral and wrote a blog that I love

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that. That's one of the best blogs I've ever read in my life, when he was substantiating the amount

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for the grant he caught, because people were saying, yo, from the time zones you're active,

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it would appear you are based in Asia and Asian software developers usually never make this much

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money. Right. Why is it fair for you to get a grant that is American level from the terms of

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how much money he got when you are in a cheaper country, right, Philippines, I don't know what's

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the cheapest country in Asia, but seems like a lot of the countries within his time zones were

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quite cheap to live in. And his reasoning was effectively the person who's living in America

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and getting paid great sums of money can live that high standard of living in a afford to buy

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the things that are associated with that high standard of living because of the amount he's

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paid. And if a person is not living in San Francisco, Norway, Oslo, or wherever else,

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they would still need to spend a similar amount of money for that high standard of living.

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A good example is myself. As you see, I'm a little sweaty. I don't have air conditioning in my house.

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I should get a conditioning in my house and I will get a conditioning in my house. And

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yeah. But the cost to get air conditioning in my house, or if I'm getting paid an internationally

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high income, right? So this was one of the things in the Bitcoin space where I was like,

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that guy is right. There's no reason for me to be paid South African rates if the work I'm doing is,

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you know, globally valuable. And even Indian developers, it's for me, that's one of the

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funniest things. A lot of companies outsource their labor to Indian developers in India.

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But when those very same developers do manage to go to these American companies, they become the

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CEOs of these companies. And I think there was a time where every tech company, every one of

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the biggest tech companies had an Indian CEO. So I'm like, yo, what if these guys could just

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do what they're doing in America back in India, where they are the most comfortable, where they

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have a social network, where they have the history, where they have support, right? So yeah, so that

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for me is one of the things I'm like, okay, if Bitcoin solves one thing, I hope is this where

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it breaks down the borders that have been put around us. And these borders have subsequently

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decided our fate for the most part, if we do not break them down ourselves. And yeah, the Bitcoin

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having is just a couple months away. And it's going to be here before we know it. So now is a

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great time for you to get your Bitcoin off exchanges and into your own custody. A great way

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to do that is by going to bitbox.swiss slash Walker, and using the promo code Walker for 5%

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off the Bitbox 02 Bitcoin only hardware wallet. It's fully open source, you can go to their GitHub

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and verify for yourself. It's easy to use. So whether you're new to Bitcoin, or you're a seasoned

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psychopath, this wallet is a great choice. And when you go to bitbox.swiss slash Walker and use

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the promo code Walker, not only do you get 5% off the Bitbox 02 or anything in their store,

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but you also help support another fucking Bitcoin podcast. So thank you. I think that that's,

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that's such an important point in terms of just, you know, a lot of people again, think entirely

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in terms of their bubble. And when you're born in a comfortable bubble, when like, for example,

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in America, you do not realize that you are given these privileges from birth that just because

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somebody else and you know, none of us choose to be born, right? And we certainly don't choose

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where to be born. But where you are born makes a huge difference in terms of your future earning

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potential, everything. And when you're dealing with if you're, you know, are born in a country,

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which the United States of America, which is the bedrock with the US dollar, as you said,

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of the global monetary system, decides that country is, you know, is not on their approved list.

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They make it really hard for you to do any sort of any sort of business, you know, outside of that

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country or get paid from outside, you know, you can't have US dollars flowing into that.

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And, you know, I, there's a couple of points I want to touch on from what you just said,

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but can you, maybe I didn't hear it, but what was the book you were trying to buy that caused them

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to shut down your bank account? Take a guess. Take a guess. The Bitcoin standard, maybe? Yes. Yes.

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Yes. Yes. So, yeah, that's the book. Wow. So, yeah. So they literally shut down your bank account

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for buying a book or trying to buy a book? Yeah, trying to buy rights to a book. I think they said

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it was a foreign exchange control finger magic, right? infringement or something. So,

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so it ended up not being that, but still, you know, it's one of those things where they can enforce

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it first or you're guilty until you prove it innocent with a lot of these laws. And yeah, so

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I was like, Oh, cool. That's honestly, that's, that's just insane. I mean, and it's,

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that's, that sucks, but it's, there's something poetic about it, at least that it was the Bitcoin

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standard you were trying to, you know, buy the, buy the rights to. I mean, just crazy. But, you

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know, so there's a few things I want to, I want to touch on from what you just said, because I think

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that that idea that you brought up of Bitcoin being a tool by which you can maybe democratize

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isn't the right word, but where you can equalize the expected value exchange across different

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countries, continents, because you're not viewed as okay, a developer in South Africa or a developer

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in the Philippines versus a developer in America. You're just a developer. It doesn't matter where

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you are. We're connected, you know, with, with the internet. And if you have Bitcoin where you

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don't need to worry about those capital controls moving money from country to country, then those

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rates should be the same. You know, it's, it's about the work that you're doing, not where you

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happen to be doing the work. And I hope this helps to bring more equalization of that because it,

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it just doesn't make much sense, does it that you can, you know, pay somebody

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pennies on the dollar for the exact same work, the same quality of work, maybe for better work

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in another country, then you would if you hired somebody who is in America, like it's just,

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it's kind of insane, honestly. And there's a couple other items I want to go into there,

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but I also want to, to talk a little bit about Machankura specifically, because this is another,

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I think, so we talked about kind of some of the blind spots for people in the Western world who,

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when they look at Africa or other different developing areas, they don't realize the problems

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that people have to deal with on a day to day basis. Another one of those, so one of those is,

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is unstable currencies and very, very difficult, a lot of difficulty moving money around between

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countries or even within the country. But another one is internet access. And you know, in America,

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it's, you know, and in many parts of the world, just about everybody has a self smartphone,

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I should say, it's, you know, very common people are used to very stable internet and very solid,

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you know, smartphones for, you know, they are getting quite expensive now, even though they

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should be getting cheaper with technology being deflationary, but that's a different story. But

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in, in Africa, not only is there a lot of difficulty with getting a bank account, or in your case,

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keeping access to your bank account, if you decide to purchase the wrong thing. So you have that,

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but you also have the fact that not smartphones are not as ubiquitous in Africa, not everybody

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has a smartphone. A lot of people have feature phones, which are running on GSM networks,

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they're not connected to the internet. And, you know, people in America were, were, will probably,

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if you're a little bit, you know, older, like myself, you're going to remember using those

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phones, it was whatever one was using. But they are still very much popular, very much in use in

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Africa, because the GSM networks are much more widespread than our, you know, 4G, or, you know,

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now getting towards 5G networks. Can you talk a little bit about Machankora specifically,

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how it works with the USSD short codes, and, and what was that, you know, light bulb moment for you

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when you said, hold on, we don't need internet to use Bitcoin in Africa.

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Oh, okay, cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Oh, yes. I want to talk about that. But I think one thing,

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as you were talking, it's stuck out, is that one other side effect of Fiat and how the Fiat system

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is implemented is that you are profiled. So if you are receiving a certain amount of money,

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the question is, what is a person like you doing receiving that type of money? So if you are born

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in a low income class, and the shift from low income to middle income is too quick, like,

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something happened in your life, and now you have a middle income or a high income salary,

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chances are you might have an issue with the bank, right? And it's worse in different countries.

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I think in Uganda or Kenya, they were saying this other lady was receiving cash from her boyfriend

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in Belgium, and he sent it through the bank, and the bank held on to that money and asked her why

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she was getting that money. She said it was from her girlfriend, my boyfriend, and they said, no,

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we don't believe your story, we're gonna hold on to this money. So we don't know what their business

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is. And anyway, even let's say it was a scam, technically, we should be innocent until proven

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guilty. It shouldn't be a crime just because you don't fit a profile. But yeah, then back to

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my changura. Effectively, when I realized that, okay, you could build something without internet.

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The story starts a while ago, I watched this documentary called The Century of the Self,

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about Sigmund Freud and advertising and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there was a

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section in the doki about the medium is not the message on, wait, wait, wait, the medium is the

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message on how different messages are different depending on the medium they are shared in.

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So depending on how basically, if it's on TV, you could do something that you couldn't do on

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radio. If it's on radio, you could do something that you couldn't do on a newspaper. And even

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music, it's one of those things that has changed with the mediums that it was, you know, sent

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through. I think when people are still using a track song length or certain length because

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of how much could be accommodated in a track vinyl as well, besides an A side, a consequence of the

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fact that oh, the vinyl has two sides. So you put the popular songs on A side and the not so popular

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songs on the B side. And now MP3s became a thing and streaming is a thing. And technically,

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with streaming, we should have seen more songs that are long or longer than four minutes longer

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than what radio allowed because radio plays a song and then has to play the next one. But what

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happened is incentives came into the play where a person would be paid for the 30 seconds. If a

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song is played for 30 seconds, then you can get paid. But if it's everything after that 30 seconds

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didn't matter, so artists wanted to get more paid so that they got more paid. And then,

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yeah, the shorter the song, the better because the shorter the song means a person has to replay it

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to get that feeling that the song played for four minutes. It's a two minutes song that you replay.

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It's a one minute song that you replay great times, weird stuff like that. And so the medium

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is the message. And if you listen to music, you could tell which era it's from, just from how long

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it is, right? You could guess. And so effectively, now what happened with Bitcoin? Yeah, I saw that

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and I kind of flipped it the other way. And I said, the medium is not the message or the message

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is not the medium. I should probably publish this blog or something. And if you look at Bitcoin,

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even the Bitcoin blockchain, you are like, Oh, it's hashed as long as it's verified.

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It's valid. It's a valid Bitcoin transaction. Every transaction comes in every 10 minutes.

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You could technically broadcast transaction on any other medium. I think Blockstream did the

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satellite where they were broadcasting Bitcoin blocks every 10 minutes. And then I was like,

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Oh, shit, we don't even need the internet. You could just broadcast it through whatever medium

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is available to you. So in my mind, I'm like, Oh, you could publish a newspaper with yesterday's

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blocks. And then if a person had a way to induce or consume one of those pages, they could be

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caught up with the state of the Bitcoin blockchain as it was yesterday, because newspapers, right?

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And so I was like, Okay, what else could you do with it? What other things could you do with it?

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And well, in Africa, we have had digital payments for a decade around the same time as Bitcoin has

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existed. 2008 and Bessa launched in Kenya. It was a big story. I've worked around it on it a bit

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over the years too. And then I was like, Oh, okay, if they could do digital payments over USD, via

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and Bessa, technically, you should be able to do the same thing with Bitcoin. And yeah, so I was

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like, Okay, cool, you don't need an internet connected device, you just need a device that could

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do some other things you need done, and even less capable if it's a custodial service, because it

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could then store the funds on behalf of the user and just do most of the stuff in the back end.

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And yeah, that's pretty much the story behind, okay, how I saw that, okay, you don't need internet.

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And I think probably one of the biggest point is a blockstream satellite.

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Well, and I remember when I first heard that, you know, you were doing this and it was,

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I think I first heard about it, and it was sometime in the summer of 2022. This came on my radar,

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and I was like, Oh, this is just this is brilliant, you know, because it's also something I think where

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somebody in the United States probably wasn't going to figure out that this was possible,

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because they didn't have the force behind them saying, I need to build an alternate solution

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that doesn't, you know, it's, you know, when you have access to a smartphone and, and laptop and,

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you know, internet everywhere, you're not thinking about, okay, what do I do if there's no internet,

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because you're just okay, I have the internet, why would I need to use anything else Bitcoin

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is sent over the internet, that's the only way I'm thinking about it. But because you were coming

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from a different place, both mentally and, and you know, physically located in different place,

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you thought of something that's really so, so simple and so brilliant, but that I don't think

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anyone else was going to come up with, you know, like it had to be you, based on your experiences,

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all those things that brought you to where you were. And now you're you're live in how many

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different countries, eight or eight or nine countries? I think seven or eight. Yeah, seven.

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Yeah. I mean, and it's, it's very interesting what you said about the, the French speaking

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countries. And I want to touch on that a little bit later. But just for anyone who is not familiar

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with what ussd is, it's unstructured supplementary service data, right? And it's, it's been, you

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know, available on GSM cellular networks for, for some time. It's, it's what Mpasa is using as well.

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And basically all you, you know, you don't need that for G connection, you are just sending cellular

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data. But can you just for anyone who's curious of kind of like the a little bit of the the technical

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side, can you talk about how that works with, you know, setting up that that session basically,

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with the ussd, where you're kind of initializing the session, and then you're able to basically

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make those commands that allow you to use Bitcoin over lightning. Cool. Yeah. So

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how do you think about it is like live SMS session, right? So you, the user are going to

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communicate with me and my service over this live SMS session, where you're not charged for

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each message you're sending, but you're charged for the amount of time that you spend on the session,

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right? So I think most telecoms either bill you on 20 second intervals or 60 second intervals.

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And so since it's still based on most of the SMS

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foundations, the character limits are the same, I think 160 character limit and

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141 over two. And so you also have to respond within a set amount of time. So 20 seconds,

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if the user doesn't respond 20 seconds, the session dies, if the service doesn't respond in

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like five seconds, the session dies or depending on how the integration was carried out. And yeah,

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so ultimately, you are incentivized to respond in a quick fashion. And so you have as little inputs

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as possible. So this I think relates to the point you making with Riyaz to no one else in other

376
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:48,800
developed countries would have came up with this, I think they would because we have quite a lot of

377
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:55,360
talent in the Bitcoin space. We have a Fiat Jeff, we have a Supertest Net and so on and so forth.

378
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:03,200
Yeah, they are mad geniuses and just build stuff to build stuff. And we've had something like

379
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:11,600
a service called Quaintext, which was SMS based. But I think where the issue lied was

380
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:21,280
it didn't explore the markets it could have. So yeah, once you develop it, who are you going to

381
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:30,080
get to use it and how are you going to get to that person? So with our service, the biggest thing

382
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:37,520
we were met with was the fact that the whole ecosystem is internet based. Every Bitcoin

383
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:46,880
company has an internet interface. So how would you bring a user into this great ecosystem? And for

384
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:54,080
me, the ecosystem is part of the reason why building on Bitcoin is so easy and so good.

385
00:44:54,080 --> 00:45:01,120
You can always get a business that's been operational for five to 10 years to collaborate

386
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:06,880
with, maybe not partner, but it's open enough that you could do something that works on

387
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:14,640
Bitrefield, do something that works on Nisteco. And yeah, so then what happens from there?

388
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:22,560
In my case, I'm like, okay, what more things could we add so that a user now has a wallet,

389
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:28,560
but then they can participate with the rest of the ecosystem so that they have a reason to open

390
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:34,320
a wallet, not just to huddle and so on and so forth. Part of the reason is the conversation to get a

391
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:41,840
person to huddle takes longer than the conversation to get a person to buy a coffee. So yeah, you

392
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:50,640
can buy a coffee with it. That's like what five seconds and that for me, that is the ideal orange

393
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:57,680
pillar length. If you're introducing a person to the service, you just tell them what they could do

394
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:07,360
and you give them the USSD code. And since the UI is so constrained, I have to figure out what to

395
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:12,960
put there so that a person can find the thing you told them to do. If you told them to create an account,

396
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,800
that's the first thing they'll see. If you told them buy goods or services, that's the other thing

397
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:25,280
they'll see once they create an account. Who are they buying it from? They don't know about Bitrefield,

398
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,760
right? But they will learn as soon as they make the purchase that oh, this was from Bitrefield.

399
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:35,680
They don't know about Nisteco, but they will learn about Nisteco as they go through the user interface.

400
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:45,120
Right? So yeah, so then you move the bulk of the work from the orange pillar and put it in the

401
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:52,560
service. And yeah, the service is really just a result of me trying to orange peel people in my

402
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:59,120
community and being met with the oh, I don't have a smartphone. Oh, I don't have an internet

403
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:04,800
connected device. Oh, I don't have enough space on my phone, right? Because yeah, these are the

404
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:09,280
three things you'd have to be met with. If a person doesn't have a smartphone, they have a device like

405
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:14,800
this, right? It's not an Nokia. I'm trying to get a 30310, please people, if you have a 30310,

406
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:22,480
reach out to me, I'm going to fly to catch a train, catch a taxi and come get it. And the second one,

407
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:29,840
I don't have internet. So how the combat that I would hotspot a person. And so I'd have internet

408
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:34,640
in my phone, and then hotspot them and then they could then download whatever app and do whatever I

409
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:41,600
say they should do. And third, this I couldn't solve, like I don't have space. The solution is

410
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:47,920
delete Instagram, delete TikTok. You are not going to win versus Instagram and TikTok, right?

411
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:56,240
And so ultimately, with any app you're building in some markets, these, these are your biggest

412
00:47:56,240 --> 00:48:03,200
competitors, TikTok, Instagram, WhatsApp. And I hate TikTok the most because people are saving

413
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:09,280
videos on their devices for later use, or for remixing purposes, because they want to learn the

414
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:14,880
dance. So they download the video and learn the dance without internet when they don't have Wi-Fi.

415
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:20,640
And then at a later time, come back and recreate the dance, but forget to delete the bloody video.

416
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:27,680
But anyway, it's all good. And so the ussd thing works great because they don't have to install an

417
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:36,400
app. They just dial the code. The telecom stores a directory of the ussd codes. And then the telecom

418
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:41,200
knows that Oh, when the person dials this code, this person is trying to access my chancoora. So

419
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:48,400
it's like DNS, but for ussd codes. And then it passes the request to us, we send a response. And

420
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:53,840
all the wonderful things I said happen when you do a ussd session, 20 second timeouts and all of that,

421
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,080
then kicking into effect. And yeah, that's basically it.

422
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:08,560
It's, it's such a, such an elegant solution. Because, you know, again, you're, as soon as

423
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:13,520
you're trying to tell somebody about Bitcoin, right? A lot of, a lot of people, again, to, to

424
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:19,840
talk about kind of the West versus much of the rest of the world, people think about it as the,

425
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:26,800
the store of value, you know, the savings technology being the primary, like that's the primary use

426
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:31,760
case for them, right? I want to, I want to maintain my purchasing power. And is that important to

427
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:37,600
people all over the world? Of course. But for much of the world, it's also just about being able to

428
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:43,120
have an easier way to use a medium of exchange, a medium exchange that's not going to be cut

429
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:48,160
off by your bank account, or won't be allowed to be, you know, sent from country to country.

430
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:54,080
And I think that's something that is missed by a lot, you know, even a lot of Bitcoiners who

431
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:59,840
stay inside their bubble, not realizing that like, yes, yes, number go up is a great meme. Yes.

432
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:05,440
It is important to have a monetary base that it can't be manipulated by whatever government

433
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:12,080
or central bank. But that medium of exchange component is so important. And to talk a little

434
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:19,040
bit more about much and quora, I know when we were talking back in 2022, you were throwing around the

435
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:24,320
idea of because right now much and quora is a custodial solution, right? Like you guys are

436
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:29,760
providing the service. It's, you know, it's a custodial solution. And, you know, you were

437
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:34,960
basically saying, you know, there are some ways that we may be able to actually make this a self

438
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:41,920
custody solution, or create another solution that is self custody, based on allowing keys to be stored

439
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:48,560
on SIM cards. And if I'm not mistaken, you have started to pilot actually some of this technology.

440
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:54,400
Can you talk a little bit about that and kind of that shift? Because that that would be one of the

441
00:50:54,400 --> 00:51:00,160
main, if somebody was to try and criticize much on quora, they would say, well, it's custodial,

442
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:04,960
you know, you should be giving people the ability to hold their own keys. But you know, you have to

443
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:09,600
trade some of that self sovereignty for the convenience of a great service like much on quora.

444
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:14,720
But can you talk a little bit about what your plans are for the self custody side of things?

445
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:21,280
Oh, you're lucky, man. You asked this question, right? As I have a SIM card and the phone right

446
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:29,520
over here. So let me try and do a small demo. Right? So let me see if I could reduce the brightness

447
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:39,680
first. And LCD blacklight. You don't go too bright. And then cool. Yeah. So effectively, every SIM card

448
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:45,760
has something called a SIM toolkit. This is torture to demo. But yeah, so there's a SIM

449
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:52,240
toolkit thing here. Let's just call it some toolkit. And then you open that up, right? And then with

450
00:51:52,240 --> 00:52:00,080
what I'm doing, it's a do sim. So, oh, no, it's a sim overlay. So this is this is a bad boy right

451
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:06,320
here. So that chip goes over your normal SIM card. And then when you open the same toolkit,

452
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:12,640
you get two menus. So the first menu item is empty and menu that's empty and because this is an

453
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:17,600
empty and some card. And then the second menu item is freezer. And that is the thing that I'm

454
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:24,400
building. You're I'll tell you as the rest called freeze after this after this small demo. So you

455
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:31,840
open freezer and you can maybe you see the about and the about is freezer version 001. I don't know

456
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:38,080
is is it going to be flipped on your side because but anyway, it's all good. The about it'll be okay.

457
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:45,120
Okay, cool. So whatever, whatever. So free. So you open it again. And then now you go to the wallet

458
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:51,440
and then you're presented with a menu like send Bitcoin, receive Bitcoin transaction, balance,

459
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:57,600
I can read the old quest and settings. Right. So this is how it's going to work. Settings.

460
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:04,960
What is this relay phone number? Oh, yeah. So I open relay phone number. And I can see the phone

461
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:10,160
number which is my relay to the rest of the internet. Right. So that's the Machangura phone

462
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:14,480
number on WhatsApp, by the way. So if you WhatsApp that number, if you're not in the G20

463
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:21,840
countries, you'll be able to use Machangura. So back to settings. Right. So effectively,

464
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:27,920
now if you have the SIM card in whichever country you could then set relay phone number.

465
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:34,800
And let's just assume that you could, you know, type out the number that's relay for your country,

466
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:40,080
maybe even run your own relay. It's like an electron server. Right. So you don't get the

467
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:45,360
start directly from the blockchain. You get the start from the electron server. This relay in

468
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:49,920
this case is an electron server with an SMS interface. So you just type out that number.

469
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:57,040
And that's how you're going to get stuff. Right. Oh, my bad. Back. Oh, cool. Freezer again. Right.

470
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:05,760
So what could you do? Open freezer. Of course, the first thing you'll have to do is receive Bitcoin.

471
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:12,080
Right. So when you're receiving Bitcoin, you could display a secret address or display cast

472
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:20,240
secret address. So we just going to display a secret address one, two, three, four, five.

473
00:54:20,240 --> 00:54:25,040
Oh, cool. And that's your secret address. So it takes five seconds for the SIM card to do all

474
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:32,720
that finger magic is that ends up showing your secret address. Or you could just display it

475
00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:38,640
from cash. So I keep a cash on the device. So now you see the secret address from the cash.

476
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:44,560
And that's a valid secret address that's on this SIM card right now. And you can send

477
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:50,320
Bitcoins to it. I cannot spend it because I'm not that far. But when you're spending, this is how

478
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:57,600
it would look like. Satoshi is Bitcoin. And you just pick a unit of accounts, sets are the standard

479
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:04,560
enter how many sets. And then enter destination. I think that enter the address. So you're just

480
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:09,360
going to type out, sorry, I say there's no company in base functionality. So you have to type out the

481
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:14,400
address you're sending to whatever, whatever. So let's just type out something. This I'm not here

482
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,720
yet. This is me just showing you how it's going to work. And yeah, this is just to confirm your

483
00:55:18,720 --> 00:55:24,400
action. And you just say one to confirm. And then it goes through. And then it should show you some

484
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:30,400
other stuff that it's going through. But then what is going to happen is there's going to be another

485
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:38,880
section here called requests. So under requests, that's where you get signing requests for your

486
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:43,360
balance. So every time the relay sends you something, it ends up in the request. So

487
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:55,360
so now you may see it's all zeros there. So those zeros for now is this phone telling me it hasn't

488
00:55:55,360 --> 00:56:03,280
received a request. So one and this that's where I'm stuck. So once I'm able to send this phone

489
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:12,400
SMSes and then consume those SMSes on Java card, I could say one just to say as a flag to say,

490
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:19,280
okay, I received this type of SMS. And I'll add the functionality and so on and so forth. But most

491
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:25,360
of the functionality is already there in other Java card projects like specter Java card status

492
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:32,160
Java card Satoshi chip. So what I'm just doing is this cool, not cool, but simple interface that

493
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:37,920
a person could use that has a SIM card there, and then piggybacking on the GSM connection

494
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:43,920
for the SIM card a person uses on a day to day to actually send in receive Bitcoin.

495
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:50,960
And yeah, so any questions from that side? I don't know if I skipped something.

496
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:59,760
I mean, it's it's incredible to see so so and this is actually, this is a self custody,

497
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:07,200
like the keys are just being stored, you know, stored locally. There is no, no third party

498
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:12,160
involved. Obviously, you're you're forwarding the messages externally. But in terms of the keys,

499
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:21,200
this is actually a self custody solution for feature phones. Yes. And yeah, so as soon as

500
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:29,280
we are able to do on chain transactions, we will explore everything else. I could tell you why it's

501
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:37,360
called freezer. Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. So effectively, this is called project Super Saiyan.

502
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:48,000
A huge Dragon Ball Z fan, I grew up watching it. And yeah, you know, one of the most iconic things

503
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:55,280
is Goku going Super Saiyan versus Frieza. And the fight against Frieza was a long fight, you know,

504
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:59,760
five days for the planet to blow up, but five minutes for the planet to blow up by the episodes

505
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:07,280
are playing for like five weeks or something like that. And so yeah, so project Super Saiyan for me

506
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:12,080
is a project where I'm like, yo, what if everyone could literally send in receive Bitcoin? Right?

507
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:19,760
And that is what I see it as I see it as Oh, it's the equivalent of going Super Saiyan in Dragon

508
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:27,040
Ball Z, giving everyone in the world the ability to send and receive Bitcoin. And of course,

509
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:36,000
self custody is a cherry on the cake. I still believe there's a role to play with being a

510
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:43,200
custodial service. And that has to do with that five second orange peeling session I was talking

511
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:50,400
about earlier. But sadly, we're not in an ideal world. I used to be in nine countries down in

512
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:55,680
seven countries, because we're not in an ideal world, they could, you know, shut down your

513
00:58:55,680 --> 00:59:01,840
USSD code, so on and so forth. So how do you make this work in a censorship resistant fashion,

514
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:11,120
which is what Bitcoin is all about. And I think Frieza is that right. And I also think that

515
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:19,600
every wallet in the space has discovered a lot of interesting things that I'm like, I'm going to use

516
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:26,480
that I'm going to use that I'm going to use that moon wallet, moon wallet, shout out to those guys,

517
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:34,880
great guys, they have effectively made the best on chain wallet in the space, right? Or one of the

518
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:42,160
best, maybe not the best, but one of the best. And why I like it is because they don't do

519
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:49,200
12 word seed phrase. And the reason why I'm saying I like it because they don't do 12 word

520
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:54,160
seed phrases is because not everyone speaks English. So if you're in a market that's not

521
00:59:54,160 --> 01:00:03,840
English speaking, you cannot use the English, Bip 39, I think, or something like that. Oh,

522
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:09,200
it's not Bip 39. But anyway, you can not use the English word list, you'd have to use the word

523
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:14,880
list for your language, right? And Bitcoin is decentralized. So there's no official source

524
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:22,080
for the word list, right? There's the most used word list. And the consequences that you then

525
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:29,760
have Electrum, which is one of the most popular desktop Bitcoin wallets, that has its own English

526
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:39,520
word list, 12 word thing. But a user wouldn't know that Oh, this thing doesn't interoperate with

527
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:45,680
that other thing, right? So the assumption for users that if I have these 12 words, I could open

528
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:53,040
a different wallet, and then use Bitcoin there. So Moon wallet, they used something like recovery

529
01:00:53,040 --> 01:01:02,000
code. It resembles old age activation codes. So it's much easier for me to convince a person to

530
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:10,640
keep an activation code secure, because they've seen activation codes before. And yeah, so Moon,

531
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:18,320
shout out to them and shout out to their lightning setup. Because the other thing with it is

532
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:25,120
effectively Moon says, if you can do on chain, you can do lightning through swaps, right? So

533
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:30,560
freezer is also going to do lightning through swaps. So we're going to do an on chain swap on

534
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:37,120
behalf of the user to pay lightning invoices, and or lightning addresses, whatever comes us. And

535
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:45,760
yeah, so that for us is like, thank you, Moon, for actually going down that path and figuring out

536
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:51,120
what works for you guys in Argentina. And then I'm like, I'm gonna, you know, take some of that

537
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:57,200
and bring that home. And then there's guys like Phoenix wallet, who are doing a great job as well.

538
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:04,080
Right. Phoenix wallet for me, the best lightning wallet you could ever use self custodial. And

539
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:15,120
currently, it has shaken off all the trade offs, you would have made as a lightning wallet service

540
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:22,400
provider, right, by putting all the fees upfront to the user. Oh, you got a Bitcoin balance, you're

541
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:29,200
going to have to pay to open the channel, right? And so on and so forth. So it's good and bad at the

542
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:35,200
same time, because it was seamless before this, right? But the upfront course for me is okay,

543
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:42,880
right? I feel like somebody could just sell the wallet. So if Phoenix wallet, let's say,

544
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:52,160
they sold for $5 or $10. And as soon as you buy it, it comes with inbound liquidity, because

545
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:56,720
you paid, that's what you're paying for, you're paying for the inbound liquidity, then you don't

546
01:02:56,720 --> 01:03:03,920
have to do the whole, the inbound is going to come off your first Bitcoin transaction thing.

547
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:09,520
And the first Bitcoin transaction may fail, because at that time fees are too high, whatever,

548
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:16,400
whatever. So you charge a fee for a person to buy or buy a subscription, and that price should have

549
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:22,480
the current on chain costs and whatever else within it. So that when a person then opens the app,

550
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:27,920
it does that. And this is just the UX thing, right? You could also do the same thing with

551
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:34,000
Bitcoin, just say, pay this Bitcoin invoice this much, and then you are then able to

552
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:42,400
use Phoenix wallet in all its glory. But I think in the past year, Phoenix wallet has moved

553
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:50,240
just so quick and implement great features like splicing, that they, their UX and the OUI hasn't

554
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:55,920
caught up with where they are. And I think over the coming year, their UX and their UI is going to

555
01:03:55,920 --> 01:04:01,760
catch up with where they are. And this is something they've done before, because they had EatLia

556
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:08,960
wallet before Phoenix wallet, and they effectively deprecated EatLia for to keep Phoenix wallet

557
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:14,960
running. And the UX on EatLia and the UX on Phoenix, totally different. But even them, I'm

558
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:21,120
like, Oh, that splicing stuff is great. Definitely going to take that and bring it into this. And

559
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:29,200
why it's great, there's this conversation around UTXOs, the small UTXOs and stuff. But I'm like,

560
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:36,400
Oh, okay, cool. So a person could just, what's the word, splice in their funds. And then whether

561
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:43,520
or not they have small UTXOs is not an issue. So that is a genius solution by the guys at Phoenix

562
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:51,120
wallet, those French guys agreed, had the pleasure of meeting them. And yeah, I wish they continue

563
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:56,000
down the path that they are on. Was there anything else you wanted to touch on with regard to Phoenix?

564
01:04:56,000 --> 01:05:02,160
So okay. So because what I wanted to maybe talk in a little bit more detail about is just kind of

565
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:10,640
with Frieza, this is now giving the capability to anyone, not just people who are in the

566
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:16,720
countries that are where Machankura is live, but this is something that can be used by anyone,

567
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:23,200
correct. And you know, anyone that has a SIM card, this is going to give them the ability to do

568
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:29,200
self custody, whether it's on a feature phone or a smartphone. This is kind of a new self custody

569
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:34,240
layer. And as you mentioned, building on some existing ideas. But this is something that's

570
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:42,320
really completely the implementation of it for feature phones is what is really completely new,

571
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:48,800
right? And that ability to okay, I've got a feature phone, I can use Machankura in a custodial way

572
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:55,360
to do lightning transactions, I can use bit refill, I can get it as tech of vouchers, I can send

573
01:05:55,360 --> 01:06:02,560
lightning, send via lightning. But then Frieza is giving you the ability to have a self custodied

574
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:08,720
Bitcoin solution so that you can, you know, they say sovereignty is like a spectrum, right?

575
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:13,680
Like, you know, you're no one's ever going to be fully sovereign, right? You know, you'd have to

576
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:17,280
too many things would have to happen for that. You'd have to be able to, you know,

577
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:22,480
make your own steel and and have all of your own freshwater source and many things. But you can get

578
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:28,800
close to being sovereign and little things like Bitcoin self custody are a big part of that process

579
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:35,120
being sovereign for it with your money. So how I mean, you mentioned that you still have a good

580
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:41,440
amount of work to do on it. Do you have kind of an idea of when, you know, you might have people

581
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:46,960
start trying to demo this out and to push this live? That's question one. And then, is this

582
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:53,920
something that you're also thinking of kind of pitching to telecoms to say, look, here's this

583
01:06:53,920 --> 01:07:00,720
solution that you can kind of promote as part of your SIM card service that enables people to use

584
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:05,520
Bitcoin in this self custodial way? Or are you not not looking in that direction too much?

585
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:18,000
Well, so yes, I think we are looking at getting telecoms to push this out. Ultimately,

586
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:25,200
with how it works, or how Java card or some toolkit applets work, the telecom can send

587
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:31,680
the update over the air. So any telecom interested could literally give this functionality to all

588
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:40,400
its users over the air. Wonderful. People have a Bitcoin wallet and no counterparty risk for the

589
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:47,520
telecom. And it's also much easier for the telecom to do because it's their infrastructure. So they'd

590
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:53,840
be the default relay, of course, the person could choose to use a different relay rather than the

591
01:07:53,840 --> 01:08:02,720
default relay. And what else? Oh, yeah. So with where it is now, it's in a very weird place where

592
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:10,400
I'm like, yo, this could literally work this weekend, or work in two weeks. I think now the

593
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:16,960
biggest block is the SMS stuff. And that I'm running out of SIM cards, right? I think this is

594
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:23,840
my pile of dead SIM cards. Some things I just have to put on the SIM card itself and test.

595
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:32,400
So what I'm going to do is I think I'm going to talk with the TASA guys. This is a company.

596
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:40,480
I don't think they put their name on it, but this is their product. SIM overly, I forgot what the M

597
01:08:40,480 --> 01:08:48,080
E stands for, but vault. And yeah, so I'm going to talk with them again, try to get another set of

598
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:53,840
cards. But yeah, it's one of those things I'm like, wow, it's so close, it could literally happen

599
01:08:54,400 --> 01:09:02,480
this weekend. Once I solve whatever issue I'm having now. So yeah. And

600
01:09:02,480 --> 01:09:14,720
so yeah, expect a demo video out of nowhere on the Machangura account on Twitter. I'm just waiting

601
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:21,920
to figure out which song to use. And yeah. But I think I have one good song in mind that a lot

602
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:25,280
of people are not going to like. But anyway, it is what it is. And yeah,

603
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:34,480
I'm looking forward to the demo video and I appreciate you giving us kind of a little sneak

604
01:09:34,480 --> 01:09:41,360
peek demo here today. I'll probably cut if it's cool with you, you know, cut that part out and

605
01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:47,760
I can share that one as just a, Hey, you know, here's a preliminary demo and you know, kind of what

606
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:54,480
this idea is because I think that this is really, really powerful. And I would encourage people who

607
01:09:54,480 --> 01:10:00,800
are in the still maybe, you know, they're into Bitcoin, but you're still living in a little bit

608
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:08,080
of a bubble, perhaps to check this out and to think about the implications of something like this.

609
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:13,040
And as you said, you know, whether you're working directly with the telecoms or not, the telecoms

610
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:18,320
can provide a smoother path to getting this out to people if they're also promoting it, that's great.

611
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:24,240
But either way, this is something that anyone would be able to run and be able to use Bitcoin

612
01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:32,240
in a self sovereign way. And to do it without needing to ask for permission, and to do it on

613
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:36,880
any sort of device. So it's, it's not limiting whatsoever. You don't have to be able to download

614
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:43,520
an app. You can just run this on your SIM card. And I think that that's so powerful. And, you know,

615
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:50,320
I'm, I'm really excited to see this go live because I think that it's these kind of stories

616
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:55,280
and these kind of projects that people like yourself just say, you know what,

617
01:10:55,920 --> 01:11:00,800
fuck it, I'm just going to build this because I want to see this. And I know that people will,

618
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:05,760
will want to use this. And you don't ask for permission and you just do it. And this is what

619
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:11,440
the stuff that is sneaking in in the background that the people who are just paying attention to

620
01:11:11,440 --> 01:11:17,760
the Bitcoin ETFs in the USA or, you know, number go up there, they're not seeing this. And certainly,

621
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:22,240
you know, governments aren't paying attention to this kind of thing. They're not realizing that

622
01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:28,080
while they're looking over here, there's a whole group of developers like yourself who are just

623
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:35,280
building stuff that once it's out there in the open, it's, it's out there for anyone and it can't

624
01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:39,520
be stopped. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about Bitcoin. It's, you know, again,

625
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:44,560
you're not asking for permission. It's not the Fiat world where you need to, where you're guilty

626
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:49,920
until proven innocent. You're just putting it out there and then it's out there forever for

627
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:56,320
anyone to use. And so it's, it's really cool to see this develop. And it's cool as well to see kind

628
01:11:56,320 --> 01:12:00,960
of that this was to, you know, in 2022, this was something that you were just kind of like talking

629
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:04,880
about like, oh, this would be cool. If we, you know, if we could do this, there's, there's probably a

630
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:09,200
way to do this. And now you're literally just building it like it's, I don't know, it's, it's

631
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:14,800
beautiful to watch that journey. Thank you. Thank you, man. And yeah, I think that's one of the

632
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:21,360
greatest things. So I want to be, I want to, sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, just continue talking. You want to be

633
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:31,200
Oh, yeah, I was going to say, I want to be conscious of your time here. If you have a couple more

634
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:39,200
minutes, though, we, I'd love to just talk a little bit more. Kind of, you were talking earlier, you

635
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:47,440
know, more general sense about the, the fiat world, the fiat mentality, again, the, you know, you had

636
01:12:47,440 --> 01:12:55,040
your bank account shut down for just trying to, to buy a book. Like these are things that sound

637
01:12:55,040 --> 01:13:00,400
like they might be ridiculous to someone who's never had it happen to them. But it can happen to you.

638
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:06,080
It's just a matter of time, depending on where you live in this world and what you're trying to do.

639
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:11,440
Cause at a certain point, someone who's in charge of your money, which is there's always someone

640
01:13:11,440 --> 01:13:15,520
in charge of your money when it's fiat, someone can just say, I don't like what you're doing. I

641
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:19,840
don't like what you're buying. I don't like what, yeah, exactly. It's not your money. I don't like

642
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:25,200
what you're saying on the internet. So I'm going to shut you down. And I mean, maybe just to

643
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:30,800
going through that experience for you and now deciding to say, you know what, because of this,

644
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:35,600
I'm going to just, I'm going to build freedom tack on Bitcoin. What is kind of, you know, your

645
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:42,000
message both to, to maybe other developers who are saying, you know, wow, you know, I'm inspired

646
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:49,440
by this. I want to try to, to work on things like this too, or to people who still don't yet see

647
01:13:49,440 --> 01:13:55,600
the problem with their fiat system that they use, because it hasn't been a problem for them yet.

648
01:13:55,600 --> 01:14:01,120
They haven't felt the pain yet, but at a certain point they will. Everyone's going to feel that pain,

649
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:12,640
you know? So, yeah, no, I feel like it's one of those things that the movie, the matrix got so right.

650
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:20,000
Everyone kind of feels that normal. That's something wrong with this society. If the thing we call a

651
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:26,560
society, right, there's really something wrong with it. And things shouldn't be like, you see,

652
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:33,600
even as you mentioned in that, smartphones should be cheaper because technology is deflationary,

653
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:39,120
but nope, they're not, they're getting more expensive. And the thing that we call a society,

654
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:46,400
but nope, they're not, they're getting more expensive. And the baseline smartphones don't get

655
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:53,840
sold anymore. I have a conspiracy theory that due to the fact that other companies, by shares, and

656
01:14:53,840 --> 01:15:01,120
other companies, and sit on boards of other companies, the companies that should be doing well

657
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:09,520
in the entry level products, drop the ball a lot. This is your opos, your samsangs and whatever else.

658
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:15,280
And when they drop the ball, they let the ball roll instead of saying, oh, I'm going to pick it up and

659
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:22,320
fix that issue so that we keep these customers, you know? And no, the other thing is the system,

660
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:29,120
the fiat systems, if they, it sees that, oh, these guys are basically, you know,

661
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:36,960
doing what they shouldn't be doing, which is falling in line, they over correct, right? And this is

662
01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:45,600
what happened with Hawaii, or the phone manufacturer, right? As it was becoming the world's bestselling

663
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:53,200
phone, set smartphone, because it was catering very well to the low income earners and the high

664
01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:59,520
income earners, because they understood people want a good camera on their phones, and they just

665
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:04,480
put the best cameras they could find on those phones. I don't know about everything else, but yeah,

666
01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:12,480
if the camera is good, a person, the average person is happy. And they over corrected with the

667
01:16:12,480 --> 01:16:20,800
sanctions. And now they don't even have a play store or a standard play store. And they, Hawaii,

668
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:27,600
or I can't pronounce their name, have had to figure out how to continue doing business, right?

669
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:36,800
In this type of environment. And I've said this on some other podcast. I really feel sorry for

670
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:45,680
the Chinese entrepreneurs, right? Because when they do something well, they never get the credit

671
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:53,040
for being the entrepreneur that went out and doing that thing. Right? If Hawaii is at T.E.,

672
01:16:53,600 --> 01:17:00,000
even Jack Ma, if they're too big, they get the association that it's the Chinese government,

673
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:06,320
even TikTok with Biden. So America said, Oh, you cannot run that against national security, but

674
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:14,960
TikTok is still in America because they put in American approved CEO and so on and so forth.

675
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:22,880
And the actual TikTok CEO cannot get that glory for doing what he did with TikTok. Right? And

676
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:32,160
then they cannot even be proud of what they did in China because they will get Jack Ma. Right? So

677
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:40,240
if you don't know what getting Jack Ma is, is Jack Ma saying, what's his company, Ant or Alibaba,

678
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:46,560
whatever else did so well without the Chinese government and the Chinese government stood up

679
01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:52,560
and made him disappear for a few months just to reeducate him on the topic of the role that the

680
01:17:52,560 --> 01:18:00,320
Chinese government plays in his success. So yeah, but yeah, then with regards to freedom tech and

681
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:07,680
building on Bitcoin, I think the beauty of it is being permissionless. Right? I think even as

682
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:15,920
in my experience with Machangura now, I had a lot of times I've had to recalibrate because it's so

683
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:24,880
easy to forget that you don't have to ask for permission. And there's an expectation from

684
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:31,600
everyone that you should ask for permission, that you should be regulated because that is the

685
01:18:31,600 --> 01:18:38,560
easier thing to do. And being permissionless, censorship resistant and decentralized is weird

686
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:44,640
in the sense that if anyone should be able to do what you're doing, so that you don't have the

687
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:50,960
target on your back alone. Right? So I think Ray spoke about this in a talk he gave at Adopting

688
01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:57,600
Bitcoin Cape Town, that if we all stood up, then you know, it's much easier to do the right thing

689
01:18:57,600 --> 01:19:04,480
and go against the grain. But yeah, freedom tech for me is just one of the weirdest things. And I

690
01:19:04,480 --> 01:19:12,000
think what I'd like to see in this space is more and more people understanding that everything you

691
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:23,840
build can be fully decentralized. We have Nostra now, Nostra is great. But we are not seeing enough

692
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:31,520
being built on top of Nostra. And if we're going to have a future, we are going to need Nostra

693
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:37,920
and Nostra apps to be dope, dopest, you know, everything they ever was and everything they

694
01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:44,400
ever will be. At the current moment, every time I'm on Nostra, I'm like, that's so sad, there's

695
01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:52,880
nothing new to see on Nostra. And then I go back on Twitter. And by see, I don't mean notes. My feed

696
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:59,200
has a lot of notes. But in terms of the UX and the UI, I'm like, ah, they could have, you know,

697
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:06,800
pushed the boundary in some way shape or form. And yeah, but the good news is, I think at some

698
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:14,240
point, those developers from developing nations, we were talking about earlier, are gonna find

699
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:21,440
Nostra, and they are going to build the weirdest things that they could possibly build, because

700
01:20:21,440 --> 01:20:28,240
Nostra allows them to build them. And then we're going to see what's happening. But sadly, most of

701
01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:35,280
them don't believe that they are in a position to actually build it out. So yeah, we need more of the

702
01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:41,520
first matrix to happen in the space, like we need a Morpheus, we need a Trinity, we need the whole

703
01:20:41,520 --> 01:20:48,800
gown to just go out and unplug people from the matrix. And I think one of the things I've

704
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:55,120
reiterated a lot of the times, especially in the first year of Machangura, is that people should

705
01:20:55,120 --> 01:21:05,200
quit their fiat jobs and build on Bitcoin. CBDCs even are not an issue if the best talent is not

706
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:18,640
working on a CBDC. So if then they fund companies to build on the CBDCs and attract the best

707
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:25,120
talent, then of course CBDCs become a threat. But as long as a fiat job is not working on a CBDC,

708
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:31,680
as long as Roy Frumpris is not working on a CBDC, we don't have anything to worry about,

709
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:39,360
we have the best talent. And then the culture will catch up, the culture will then know, oh,

710
01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:49,280
those guys are doing a lot of interesting things that we should actually be paying attention to.

711
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:58,800
I love that. It's a, it is something that makes me feel better and very hopeful that as you said,

712
01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:06,880
the right now the smartest people, the most creative people are building in and around and on

713
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:12,720
Bitcoin. They're the people that are, you know, because that's what they're attracted to, right?

714
01:22:12,720 --> 01:22:20,160
The people who are building on or will build on CBDC infrastructure, whether it's, you know,

715
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:25,040
for a specific government or through the Bank of International Settlements or whatever, or it's,

716
01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:31,360
you know, the guys at, you know, JP Morgan building out, you know, their private blockchain solutions,

717
01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:38,080
those are the people that are in it for the wrong reasons. Maybe the reason, you know, is just they,

718
01:22:38,080 --> 01:22:43,200
JP Morgan's paying them a lot of money to work on that. Okay, whatever. But the people who are,

719
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:52,320
that I see, like yourself, like, like Fiat Jaff, you know, the list goes on and on, who are building

720
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:58,480
on Bitcoin or building on NoCert, these are the people that actually really care and really give

721
01:22:58,480 --> 01:23:03,840
a shit about the building the future that they want to see. They're not willing to let somebody

722
01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:07,920
else determine what the future is going to look like. They're saying, I don't like the way things

723
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:14,480
are going. I want the future to look different. And so, you know, if not, if not me, then who?

724
01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:18,960
And you know, the beauty is you don't have to ask for permission. Once you get to that point where

725
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:24,160
you say, yeah, I am going to do this. Well, it's permissionless. Nobody can stop you and you can

726
01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:30,240
just build and that's that is such a strong and powerful thing that we have going in the, you

727
01:23:30,240 --> 01:23:35,920
know, general, let's say open source, open protocol space is that people don't have to ask for

728
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:40,960
permission. So if they are attracted to building a different future than the one that would otherwise

729
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:48,240
exist, they can do it. And no one can stop them. You know, that's, that's, that's something that

730
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:56,720
gives me a lot of hope. Yes. And I think to add to that, the other thing is to not think

731
01:23:56,720 --> 01:24:03,280
they should be a transit, transitory period. Yes, of course, there will be a period where we

732
01:24:03,280 --> 01:24:10,320
are transitioning from Bitcoin and whatever else, man, from fiat and Bitcoin, and from fiat

733
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:16,880
to Bitcoin, but you could do it. We could make it happen overnight, right? Like Al Thavid or

734
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:24,480
Al Thavid already showed us that, yo, Bitcoin can become legal tender overnight, right? And

735
01:24:24,480 --> 01:24:31,360
micro strategy showed us that, yo, public companies can be on the Bitcoin standard overnight as

736
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:39,360
well. But what is sad for me is as great as Al Thavid was doing, as great as micro strategy

737
01:24:39,360 --> 01:24:49,120
is doing, as great as maybe I am doing, right? We are not seeing new entrants just, you know,

738
01:24:49,120 --> 01:24:56,320
copying what they are seeing, like, oh, those guys are doing something that works. Let's do that.

739
01:24:56,320 --> 01:25:04,400
Right. And people or the general public are so swayed by the new and the hip that they then see

740
01:25:04,400 --> 01:25:10,960
a failed playbook, a failed playbook in this case is Ordinals, BRC 20, blah, blah, blah,

741
01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:16,640
blah. These are all things that have already failed. Right. And then they just take the failed

742
01:25:16,640 --> 01:25:24,080
thing and put it on Bitcoin and sell that and then people are building on that. And I'm like,

743
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:30,320
but guys, this playbook, I will, we, we, if you've been here for five years, you've already seen a

744
01:25:30,320 --> 01:25:37,200
play out and it failed. NFTs, if at least failed two years ago. So, and they are still a current

745
01:25:37,200 --> 01:25:43,280
failure. So you don't have to go back that far to see where this is all leading up to. Why is that

746
01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:50,640
so attractive to the minds of if we're not, but I understand it's fiat, right? It's something

747
01:25:50,640 --> 01:25:59,520
a senior, I think one of the papers say Fadin wrote was on senior age and why senior age is one

748
01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:05,680
of the most attractive things in the space. Why drive chains fail? Why drive chains don't solve

749
01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:14,080
the issue that they say they solve is because if it's all on Bitcoin, your new blockchain

750
01:26:14,080 --> 01:26:21,680
cannot have its own token. So if you're building it, you cannot do the senior age ordinances,

751
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:29,200
they do the senior age in the weirdest way, because they issue something for 10,000 sets. And

752
01:26:29,200 --> 01:26:35,760
say the sets are worth a million sets. And hey, the blockchain doesn't agree with that assessment.

753
01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:40,640
But as long as they can convince somebody else to do it, somebody else follows along.

754
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:49,120
Somebody else follows along. And yeah, so for me, I'm like, yeah, no, this is weird. And this is,

755
01:26:50,080 --> 01:26:57,360
it would have been better if we would be seeing people build on Bitcoin in a nice way. But we

756
01:26:57,360 --> 01:27:04,560
just not. And yeah, so that's why I'm like, okay, we need that first version of the matrix to come in.

757
01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:15,280
I think that's a really, a really interesting point just about some of this behavior,

758
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:25,520
whether it be ordinals, BRC 20, you know, drive chains, being a quest for senior age, right,

759
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:34,000
being somewhat of rent seeking behavior, you know, where you're, you're looking to extract value,

760
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:42,080
rather than create value. And, you know, I'm of the opinion that, okay, you want to do that,

761
01:27:42,080 --> 01:27:45,760
fine, do whatever you want. I don't care, I'm not going to stop you from doing it,

762
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:50,080
you're free to do it. You know, but at by the same token,

763
01:27:50,080 --> 01:27:59,040
let's at least be honest about what it is that, you know, you're doing there. The idea of, you

764
01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:06,000
know, let's quote, make make Bitcoin fun again. It's like, okay, that's a clever little marketing

765
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:12,160
scheme. And if you have people who are willing to pay however many sats for your, your NFT,

766
01:28:12,160 --> 01:28:18,320
good for you, that's, that's, that's fine. It probably isn't going to work out so well for

767
01:28:18,320 --> 01:28:22,560
those people who bought it. It's going to work out well for the people who issued it, they're

768
01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:29,120
going to stack up a lot of sats. The people who bought it, maybe not so much. But okay, you know,

769
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:35,280
maybe some of those people need to learn the hard way that this is, this is, as you said,

770
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:40,560
something that has, has been tried and will probably be tried again, but will probably continue to,

771
01:28:40,560 --> 01:28:46,880
to fail in that way. But I am glad that there are people like yourself who are building out the

772
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:53,680
things that really matter on top of Bitcoin and trying to solve real, genuine problems

773
01:28:54,400 --> 01:29:01,200
with real solutions that work not just for people in America, but for people around the world. And

774
01:29:01,200 --> 01:29:09,200
so I want to thank you for that. And again, your, your time is scarce. I know that any time you're

775
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:15,680
spending here is time you're spending not with, with your family or with, you know, building out

776
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:21,520
amazing freedom tech. So I want to wrap things up a little bit, but just to send people for the

777
01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:30,080
website, it's 8333.mobi. I'll include the links. I'll include the link to Machan Khor and yourself

778
01:29:30,080 --> 01:29:35,440
on Twitter. I'll include your Noster as well. Is there anything else people should check out or

779
01:29:35,440 --> 01:29:42,080
the website is a good place to start? Yeah, I know the website is a great place to start. And yeah,

780
01:29:42,080 --> 01:29:48,320
thank you very much for having me. And thank you for coming on. I really enjoyed this. I'll get this

781
01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:54,160
episode out ASAP because I think there's a lot of stuff in here that people need to hear. And also

782
01:29:54,160 --> 01:29:59,040
the stuff that you're building is just really, really very cool. So thank you for sharing your

783
01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:04,400
scarce time with me. I appreciate it very much. And looking forward to seeing you again in person,

784
01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:10,640
hopefully, hopefully at a conference sometime this year. Most definitely, most definitely. Yeah.

785
01:30:10,640 --> 01:30:17,840
Hope you have a wonderful time with the family. And yeah, we'll meet. I hope to meet everyone in the

786
01:30:17,840 --> 01:30:22,400
family when we do meet. So have a great day.

787
01:30:27,840 --> 01:30:34,880
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of the Bitcoin Podcast. If you are a Bitcoin only

788
01:30:34,880 --> 01:30:40,320
company interested in sponsoring another fucking Bitcoin podcast, head to bitcoinpodcast.net

789
01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:46,880
or hit me up on social media on noster. Head to primal.net slash Walker and on Twitter,

790
01:30:46,880 --> 01:30:53,600
search for at Walker America or at TIT coin podcast. You can also watch the video version of this show

791
01:30:53,600 --> 01:31:00,480
on X or on YouTube by going to youtube.com slash at Walker America or rumble by searching for at

792
01:31:00,480 --> 01:31:07,760
Walker America. Bitcoin is scarce. There will only ever be 21 million. But Bitcoin podcasts are

793
01:31:07,760 --> 01:31:14,160
abundant. So thank you for spending your scarce time to listen to another fucking Bitcoin podcast.

794
01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:38,160
Until next time, stay free.