Once you see that it's successful because you can see how it started in El Salvador
How is do how it's doing then you have Suriname next then you have we already have
You know some other countries that are also looking at it countries that are just buying it countries that are investing or diversifying more into mining
So it's already spreading, but it will just be a
more rapid way
To actually show that government the state
Doesn't have to be the way it is right now that the world doesn't have to be the way that it is right now
The world is in in kind of like a whirlwind at the moment or the whirlpool like just kind of spiraling and spiraling and spiraling
Down and we just need to have like one little boat that figures out a way to
To get up and then the rest of the rest will follow that is what I envision for this country
And what I hope that you know I can help build for my kids and my grandkids a
Future that I would be proud of to bring kids into this world. So
Yeah, that's what I'm dedicating the rest of my life towards
Greetings and salutations my fellow plebs. My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast
The Bitcoin time chain is 8 4 3 5 8 9 and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin
Today's episode is Bitcoin talk where I talk with my guest about Bitcoin and whatever else comes up today
That guest is Maya Parbu Maya is a bit coiner and an entrepreneur
And she's currently running for president of Suriname this conversation was really fascinating
Because even though Maya is running for political office one of her main goals is to
Decrease the size of the state and the role of the government put another way
She's a bit coiner first and a politician second if you're like me
You probably don't know a lot about Suriname, but after this episode you definitely will and I hope you see the incredible
Potential this country has under new leadership like Maya's and on a Bitcoin standard
I highly encourage you to follow Maya on Noester and Twitter as she prepares for the
2025 elections in Suriname you can find her links in the show notes before we dive in do me a favor and subscribe
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Bitcoin podcast net without further ado. Let's get into this Bitcoin talk with Maya Patapu
How's it going it's it's been it's been since Prague yeah, yeah, it's almost a year now, right?
That's yeah, that's wild probably
We had this you know this whole baby thing and now it's like time is times already strange in the Bitcoin space
And now it's just like even more strange
Yeah, it feels like it was yesterday
But like now there's just like this little human alongside us too
So like very clearly showing us the passage of time
Well, that is adorable
You know, I've got us I've got to say also you are you're definitely the first
Presidential candidate I have had on the show. So interesting. Yeah, I know it's it's shocking
I haven't interviewed tons of presidential candidates yet, but I'm very very honored that you would be the first one on here
So welcome
Thanks. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so I mean maybe a good place to start out
I think is just for maybe for anyone who is not familiar with you and just kind of to set the stage a little bit
I just like to ask a very open-ended question and you can take it whatever way you want to
But that's just who are you and how did you get here today to be now running for president? Which is
Quite an incredible thing to be doing for anyone
Well, I'm an entrepreneur I kind of
Like my grandfather was
You know in trade here in Suriname my father after him
And then he passed away when I was 12 and we were kind of like
Out of necessity, you know, my mom was working and I just kind of started working on the side and I started an import-export company
and
after that I
Think about a decade ago. I started infrastructure and civil engineering company. So that was the second one
Which we bootstrapped and built over the last decade
And we do works primarily for the gold mining companies oil companies or ports dams dykes channels roads
So primarily infrastructure
And then I was I had already learned about Bitcoin
a friend told me about it in 2012 and then I started kind of following
just how it was developing over time and
you know building my businesses back then and
Trying to to make, you know, pay them mortgage here at a 19% interest rate
And just you know struggling to build and scale those companies here in Suriname
And I was actually looking at you know, the main problems we were facing as a country just growing up knowing about tech stocks and
You know the US capital market system and just seeing like companies raising capital to scale and
This these were companies that were doing less revenue than some of the companies here in Suriname and they're very well structured
Like it's it's most of us in executive positions here are Dutch educated
So they're very well structured and they you know, they scale properly and like the financials could actually support a capital raise
And I like I was just looking at problems that I myself was facing
You know building those companies and what the economy was facing what people like me were facing
Trying to build, you know, just yourself your family by be able to afford shelter get a mortgage and things like that
And then I saw that, you know, we didn't have a developed capital market here similar to what for example, you're so familiar with in the US, right? We don't have that here.
So you're missing a portion of the economy basically where people are able to allocate resources to what is supposed to be done
Or in the market. So they're missing that aspect. And from, you know, private sector side, then you're basically just missing risk capital. So you're solely dependent on the banks.
And if interest percentage percentages are very high here, which they are, then a lot of people are either priced out of the market or it makes competition and just
Being able to fairly compete very hard here, which limits innovation, you know, and change and growth of the country and the economy.
So I started looking at the capital market. It was still early days in Bitcoin. I was in will pool all the time talking and trying to convince them that Surinam would be great for Bitcoin adoption, specifically in the US.
You know, Satoshi created Bitcoin because after the 2008 financial crisis, we don't have a capital market at all. So we can build it from scratch, you know, from the ground up, which is a unique opportunity using Bitcoin at its core.
But the problem back then was how do you get into the capital market, you know, and then you're just not able to get into the capital market.
So it was still a bit hard to figure out. So we started on focusing on an exchange, you know, thinking that would be the sly roundabout way to increase Bitcoin.
So I think that's a good point.
So, you know, there was no federated protocol or anything back then. So it was still a bit hard to figure out. So we started on focusing on an exchange, you know, thinking that would be the sly roundabout way to increase Bitcoin adoption, but also use or build that capital market with Bitcoin at its core.
Along that process, we've been working here with the central bank, there's a sandbox that's been established at the central bank fintech policy for the country was developed.
And we've been in that process for such a long time that we just started to focus on, you know, creating a solution for the entire industry or, you know, more people than just Suriname.
But using the struggles that we face here and the infrastructure that is available to build that foundation because you don't have the legacy infrastructure you have in Western economies.
Right. So that can create a unique opportunity to innovate without that existing infrastructure, you know, kind of like even limiting the way you think because you're so used to certain things just being there and being accessible and being easy that you don't realize what we have here and the issues that we face here, especially with the amount of people that are, you know, also still unbanked, still a cash based economy.
We have no online payment methods, you know, you can just easily integrate anything to accept, you know, visa or mastercard.
People that debit cards don't have visa or master on them. It's just a local card that you can only use here.
So websites and, you know, online shopping never really took off here yet because it's just not there.
And then you can use, you know, big integrate Bitcoin as payment method and now like a tour guide, for example, he integrated yesterday and now he can accept payments from anywhere in the world.
So that's basically my my my tumbling down the rabbit hole.
I went to El Salvador in 2021 to try and kind of get the to get to also lobby for Suriname and out of that, or after that actually came a conversation with I think it was a friend of mine Daniel.
He sent me a link to 21.world.
You know, I was asking how do I get what's happening in El Salvador in Suriname. And then I started with 21.world, 21.world that created the Dutch community.
I've been just actually like trying to contribute as much as I can for the past year.
And I was kind of bugging Samson to come to Suriname because I asked someone I think it was Edwin. I asked him, you know, from of Gentry, I asked him how do I get adoption like El Salvador in Suriname.
He says, convince Samson to get on a plane.
So then I just basically, yeah, I put that, you know, that's the target I need to convince Samson to come to Suriname. He needs to see this country. He needs to understand why because you don't really get it until you've actually been here.
I've had that with because there are a bunch of Bitcoiners moving now, moving here now and I've had it with a lot that I've traveled here to that they they get it when they're here.
That's when they see like, oh, these people really need Bitcoin. Like this exchange rate is it's annoying or exhausting the way it fluctuates, unable to exchange, you know, SRD easily for a foreign currency.
And just the way you need to transact it's pretty stressful.
And when you see people, you know, setting in lines at ATMs, when you hear what the interest rates is at a bank, you know, for a mortgage now would be around 18, 19%.
So just imagine trying to build, you know, to buy a home for your family or build a future for your family and that is what you need to pay annually in interest.
And we've had a lot of issues with just government corruption and I'd always been advocating against it.
And being a political activist is never easier, right? Like you're constantly like complaining about government, basically, or complaining about the central bank, like the central bank did open market operations.
Something that I had also, you know, discussed with the governor then. But the whole point was to be able to, at least in some way in the interim, be able to control the interest rates or be able to lower them,
because they had just gotten the ability to buy US Treasuries.
And then what they did is they now offer short term bonds for 90%. It's gone down a little bit to 69%, but it's still the highest in the world.
So you've had that. I've been very vocal about that and I've been very vocal about corruption in the country.
So that has given me a certain reputation here. I've been advocating for Bitcoin for over six years here. So I've spoken at the ICT conferences here. I've been on TV about it here.
So everybody knows me as the Bitcoin lady.
I love it.
Yeah, so that locally is already, like they already know that here. But basically, it created kind of a platform or a way for us to, you know, allow, for example, Samson to come here.
He had meetings with the president, with the central bank, with several officials here and several companies here.
And it was an amazing experience. The president was very, you know, adamant about being a global leader in terms of Bitcoin.
And in the meantime, several scandals have come out.
And one of which being that the presidential advisor that is supposed to advise him on this proposal is mining or has been mining Bitcoin since 2022 with subsidized energy.
So it's been a little bit, yeah, it's been a little bit rough here.
But there is a payment commission that has been installed. So hopefully over the next couple of months, we'll have Bitcoin as legal tender, at least under this government.
And either way, I'm running in the next election. So that and that is a little bit Samson's fault too. He's the one that kind of pushed me over the edge.
Okay. Well, I mean, I think then a lot of people should probably be thanking Samson for giving you that push.
I appreciate the background and there's, there's a number of things I want to dig into, dig into with that because I think maybe a good starting point is like you just mentioned, first of all, unbanked,
the like the amount of the population that's unbanked, but presumably I think like the mobile phone penetration is actually quite high, like probably in the 80s, something like that.
So it's, yeah, more than 80%. So you have kind of this perfect storm of difficulty accessing banks. But hey, people have mobile phones or cell smartphones at the least feature phones.
And that's fantastic. The other thing is just on the currency side. So the, the certainities dollar, I was just, you know, doing a little bit of prep for this, looking into it.
And of course, I, you know, I just start checking, okay, like certainities dollar and IMF and devaluations. And it's like, oh, wow, what a, who could have thunk the IMF has suggested that there be several, you know, structural adjustments over the years to increase export competitiveness as they say.
And what does that really mean? Well, it means overnight you devalue by, I think there were a couple of like 20, 30% and then even larger ones more recently.
And it's just such a, it's such a sad thing to see, like you can, you know, you bring up the chart versus USD on Google and it's like, okay, all of a sudden you have these drops off a cliff, where you're like, oh, well, that's an IMF structural adjustment devaluation of the currency.
Like that's just so sad to see. And so, I mean, maybe another good place to start though is just you mentioned kind of corruption there. And I know I was, again, just Googling like, let's see what the top things that come up in the news are about Suriname.
And one of the more recent ones was, I think maybe from January or late December about the president who was your, well, he was the leader, I think maybe dictator in like the 80s.
And he was basically convicted of like, of murdering political opponents, essentially. And now he's basically disappeared, but he was still like had a hand in the National Assembly.
So corruption is interesting because obviously every country has corruption. Like it's not like there is any country that whose hands are clean. The United States is hands certainly are not clean.
Some countries are just better at hiding it than others, right? But I guess maybe just for, for those that are interested and I know I am, can you give a little bit of a breakdown of like, how does the actual political system work there?
I know the elections coming in 2025, right? Like basically a year from now. How does that political system work? You know, you have a National Assembly basically and it's like kind of a parliamentary structure.
But you know, what does that look like? And basically, you know, who do you have to kind of bring into your coalition, if anyone, to have a real fighting chance at this?
Because I'm guessing your opponents are probably older gentlemen and pretty entrenched in their old ways. So like, what, what does that strategy start to look like for you as you're going into this year leading up to the election?
Well, there's actually two points that I'd like to answer. So you mentioned IMF and then devaluation. But to clarify the open market operations, the IMF told them that they needed to do them, but they didn't say what percentage.
And from the central bank, they asked the commercial banks what they, you know, they did an auction, they held an auction and the commercial banks decided what percentage.
So they get 98, you know, 89 something percent after six months in SRD for the SRD that they take from the people and use to invest into these.
So it's, it's, it's that that's corruption at its core in the financial sector with the central bank, you know, it's, it's Timmy blatant money printing and just devaluation, devaluing the currency without, you know, basically stating that you're doing that.
And they've recently issued issued a new one at a lower percentage, but that one will come out right after the elections.
So the time is also very convenient. So you have systemic corruption in financial institutions happening that, you know, that has happened for for a really long time.
I think ever since we gained our independence in 1975.
So the political sphere here after our independence from the Netherlands in 1975, the dictator, Daisy Bothers, he actually was the one that held a coup and then took over basically.
Yeah, he was basically ruling the country as a dictator.
And at a certain point, people started gathering, you know, teachers, doctors, physicians, journalists.
So the educated educated people in the country were gathering and he thought that they were planning a counter coup.
So he had them dragged out of their houses, brought to the fort in the city of the country. And then after a day, I think it was had them all shot in the back or in the in the in the morning had them all shot in the back.
So this is something that happened in the 80s. And once that happened, I think about half of our population left and move to the Netherlands.
So we've had massive migration during that time. And then we've had pretty peaceful peaceful government peaceful elections and government afterward.
But it's there's just been systemic corruption at government.
It's a lot of scandals back to back to back.
I mean, if you just do a little bit of research in terms of just general corruption and, you know, answer and you'll see a lot of scandals by government, mainly just almost it's it's become a career here to either work for government or kind of, you know, be a minister or be a member of parliament.
And most often, there is, you know, some kind of kickback for for arranging some kind of deal or things like that that incentivize them to go for those roles.
And I think it's mainly because we have a small economy, and we're very, you know, off the radar off the global radar or not in the the the international spotlight or anything.
But that's going to change with the amount of offshore oil we found, you know, in the last decades we have massive offshore oil fines.
So that political climate is going to change. So people are very tired of this old, like these old politics and these old politicians, because it is it was after, after the independence, it's been a shift constantly from either, and what you call MPS, which is with the Green Party and then you have and they pay the purple party and then you have Faye happy the current government, the Orange Party.
And they've, they've also been based on race for a very long time. So each party would be, you know, for a specific ethnic group.
So that, you know, created actually separated people a lot and made them, you know, vote against each other.
So in Dutch we call it for daily hairs, politicals, you divide and conquer, basically. And each government has had their amount, you know, massive amounts of corruption and it's gotten really, really, really bad over the years and it's gotten worse with every government.
So this government, honestly, they don't give a fuck. And this is this is like senior advisors or people that who are independent from government but have been a CEO of the oil company or something, like, you know, they, they're people that are aware of each government.
And then they, they themselves say, this government really does not care. They haven't done anything in three years. It's been one scandal after the other.
And my generation is just tired. And most people move away. We have a lot of doctors moving away. We have a lot of nurses moving away. We have teachers moving away.
People looking for hope and prosperity somewhere else. Right. So you're kind of just wondering, like, we need change right now. And 40% of voters are under 35.
We all know, you know, what the rest of the world is like, we can see it on our phones daily. So we know that things can be different. But when you get off the airplane here, it's like you're going back into time.
I don't know, 40 years, 50 years. And the only reason why this country isn't developed or developing is because of its leadership.
And just being a Bitcoin or kind of coming into the space as Bitcoin only and being very, you know, talk in the toxic maxi atmosphere on Telegram, I grew up with these grew up in the space or grew up as a Bitcoin or with these beliefs, right, that there should be a free, fair and open market.
It should be transparent. Bitcoin fixes, you know, fix the money, fix the world basically. So if you change the money for the people and make it completely transparent and like, for example, government spending can just be online, similar to how El Salvador shows its treasury, right.
You can show where spending is going. And I feel a lot in this country politically has been, you know, abused by government. So the state owned companies, the government institutions, like for example, our national air carrier has a massive amount of debt, over 100 million.
And that's basically because of mismanagement because government always, you know, in very nepotistically put certain people in the board of a company like that and then abuse their power.
And also the government just have has massive amounts of debt at these companies. So it's, it's, it's like these, they've just nested corruption at all the way to the core of the entire economy, and also at like the Minister of Finance Ministry of Education, it's everywhere.
And our healthcare has, like they're currently protesting. Education teachers are protesting. Bank workers are protesting. The energy company, utility companies are protesting their staff, like their staff are, the unions are currently protesting.
So people are not happy with government. They want change. The other political parties really don't have a face yet. So they haven't announced who, you know, who is the, what we call a lace tracker, like who's the person that will lead, you know, the race to the elections.
And they haven't really used their development plans either. And usually they don't have a development plan with an actual structured solution to the economy, aside from just stimulating certain sectors like production, for example.
But that's just like, you take what you see in an economy book and then, okay, copy paste and apply. That's not how you fix systemic problems, right?
You need a broad overview and you need a broad strategy for the entire economy, not just based off of where it is now, but where it could go.
And, you know, we have with offshore oil fines starting exploitation 2028, we'll have about 2.8 billion flowing into the country annually.
And that can go into a sovereign wealth fund. But if it if it goes the same way that our oil resources have gone, like, or our gold resources have gone, they, you know, they will find out some or figure out some kind of structure to get a grip on on on those funds and and misappropriated.
So if we want to actually develop this country and affect change, then we need new leadership and we need younger leadership.
And there is a great group of technocrats that have no have zero political ambition or actually needed, you know, as a job or need need the income from it that are willing to work for this country and actually actively change it.
And they are pro, you know, having Bitcoin be at the center of that because of its transparency and its properties because I've been, you know, orange peeling them for a while too.
So we're all collectively working. I've also had held presentations about Bitcoin and what it can mean for the country at other political parties as well.
And my approach is very simple. It's, you know, we need to move away from racial segregation and politics in that way. We need to move away from party politics as well.
It doesn't matter if you have left wing, right wing, upper wing, lower wing, you know, whatever kind of wing value.
I think where we've reached a point globally with the global economy with destabilization of the dollar with technological advancement happening as rapidly as it is.
We need to have a strategy for the country with, you know, all of that in mind.
And on how we diversify away from, you know, things like fossil fuels and how we transition into renewables and how we develop this nation.
We're the most forested country in the world, 93% forested and we're about eight times the size of El Salvador with a 600,000 people population.
So we're very small. We have massive offshore oil fines. It's estimated more than Qatar.
So we'll be a global leader in oil, which means we need to lay a foundation that can be, you know, the future for future generations here.
And I believe taking what, you know, Bukele has done in El Salvador is beautiful, but it's still, I think for him, a much bigger challenge than it is for us.
I think with a smaller population, with a smaller footprint in the city, we can affect more change more rapidly than they have there.
And we can actually lay the foundation for, for example, we have enough resources that we don't need to levy taxes.
We have enough resources that we can actually, you know, have a form of universal basic income, like a royalty, for example, going directly to the citizens
instead of being in some government part. And then directly flowing through these people, you can use liquid, for example, for that, right?
So technology, Bitcoin technology itself is at a point where we can actually implement it in, in this country and build that new system that, that, you know, we all are in this for.
Like when Satoshi started, it was the US system that was broken. But just, if you just look at it now, like look at it now, it's, it's like watching the Roman Empire crumble.
It's hurt, it's painful to watch, which can basically see the economy just spiraling out of control with the massive amounts of money that's being printed, but then also allocated towards war.
So to me, it's, it's, you know, it's just, you see it inflating and you know that it's going to have an effect on our economy as well.
So we, we need to diversify away from the US as a, as a, you know, a unit of trade.
And I honestly see no reason why we should maintain the SRD.
It's inflated 50 to 60 percent annually. Previous governments have changed currency.
And I think with the amount of resources we have, the, the structure that we've, that we, that we're modeling is basically that people will just be able to earn in Satoshi's and companies will just have their treasuries and sats.
So you'll see your salary increasing in relation to every other fiat currency in the world.
You'll see, you know, your, your treasury increasing, except for when it, when it takes a 38% dive, of course, which happens every now and then.
But I, I actually, Bitcoin saved my, my, my own companies because when I saw what was going to happen with the economy and, you know, COVID hit, I, I, I saw that it would be happening double.
One, we were going to have massive inflation here and to the global economy was going to take a hit.
So how do you hedge, right? How do you protect your company?
So I put converted everything to Bitcoin and that is the only reason why we survived as long as, as, as we did.
So I see it as a, as a way for people to have a currency that is the, you know, it's the payment layer of the internet.
It is what the Web three fluff industry will, you know, after this bubble bursts, like I did, you know, in the, in the 1990s, it will all move towards Bitcoin and Bitcoin development.
So we want to be ahead of, ahead of the curve and be a fostering like a home for, for, for Bitcoin innovation because we do want to innovate.
So creating the right environment, legal frameworks, creating, you know, working on education to be able to educate our people to be developers, for example, on, on, on lightning or Bitcoin core.
We all know we need more developers in this space.
So that creates a job opportunity for our people.
It's 600,000 of which not all 600,000 can work, you know, it's the working population is around 140,000.
So it doesn't take much to actually diversify and affect change.
It's a small economy, 2.8 billion.
So attract that, you know, attract financial institutions or larger Bitcoin companies that can thrive here with what is what is missing currently globally is a clear regulatory framework like clear guidelines.
You know, that don't limit privacy that are not based on the old traditional financial system that but that encourage the growth of a new one.
Right. So we have that opportunity here.
So we want to capitalize on that, make sure that, you know, our future generations have a future, especially with just what's happening in AI.
So the educational system is already archaic.
And we have a beautiful people here, which like a beautiful diversity of cultures, you have Indians, Chinese, Dutch, some Americans, Australians, you have Japanese, you have Muslims and Jews, you have a synagogue next to a mosque here.
So culturally maroons and creoles in the city.
So culturally, we're very diverse. We all eat each other's food. So we all go to your restaurants of every cuisine here and we all go out and eat everything.
We celebrate each other's holidays. So we have a lot of holidays and we celebrate all of them together.
So we're actually pretty peaceful people in general.
Like you've had like one protest, for example, and they set the parliamentary building on fire. But before that, every protest was peaceful.
So in general, we're a peaceful people pretty laid back, very traditional, very, you know, traditional culture.
And I think things like that should be preserved because I think the world is kind of going crazy at the moment.
It looks like, you know, sometimes you look at the news or you just see what's happening in mainstream media and you're just like, is this really still happening?
Are we not in 2024? Were we not supposed to have flying cars and, you know, Star Wars type of shit?
Where did we go so wrong that our leaders cannot even, you know, stop pretending?
Stop pretending and just do what they need to be doing for their people, like practice what they preach.
It's weird to look at it from the outside.
You know, we're just used to corruption here and used to it being this bad, but global wars escalating the way they're escalating right now, the amount of printing and subsidizing that is happening in the US.
The economy basically, you know, on the verge of collapse, the real estate market on the verge of collapse and it's like nothing is actually happening.
And then when it's happened, then they'll have a narrative for it again.
It's like, haven't we seen this movie before?
Deja Vu constantly.
Yeah, it's crazy.
You know, so there's a lot there that I want to unpack.
And, you know, I was just thinking one thing that jumped out at me, you know, you mentioned this idea of, you know, okay, bringing in Bitcoin as legal tender, but also as the de facto tender, not just like alongside like El Salvador, it's a dollarized economy.
But we have Bitcoin as legal tender alongside that.
What you're talking about is basically as it went from the certainties like Gilder or something, right?
And so you're talking about another shift like that basically, where you change now to Satoshi's.
And you mentioned, you know, okay, like overall, you'll see purchasing power increase relative to all these fiat currencies, which is amazing.
But yes, you do have these drawdowns.
But at the same time, I was thinking, you know, in a way, the people of Suriname are used to those drawdowns because they've had to have it enforced by the top from the top down through these devaluations.
Yes, they've had worse.
So, and, you know, at the end of the day, one set will still be one set.
So it holds true actually, you know, so their income will not lower because Bitcoin in relation to US dollar lost a percentage of value.
So the currency that they're saving in like even the US dollar in inflates is inflationary and they currently save in euros or in euro, euros or in USD.
So it's for them, they're already saving in an inflationary currency and already losing value.
So with Bitcoin, they'll immediately see that they're retaining value and actually saving.
That's like, it's a better form of savings because just imagine what their pension funds have done here.
You know, and it's, yeah, it's rough here.
Oh, like, you know, volatility in Bitcoin is the price that we all pay for it actually being a fair system that cannot be corrupted from the top down cannot be, you know, you can't just devalue Bitcoin and decide, you know what, we're going to, we're just going to double the supply of this, of this money.
No, it's not how it works.
And so I think that's a, it's a beautiful thing.
You also mentioned, you know, okay, you guys are a fairly small population, 600,000 incredibly resource rich country from your forests.
You have in terms of energy as well, hydroelectric, you, the oil deposits are, I mean, insane, like that is earth shattering amounts of oil that have been discovered.
And that's something that for a population, especially that small can have an incredible impact.
And what I hear you saying, which is amazing, I wish somebody in the US government would ever say this, but get rid of taxes because you, CERNM is a net producer economy.
You are, you are producing more than you consume, you have, and you're able to export all the success.
And I think that's a beautiful thing that a country like CERNM is kind of uniquely positioned with this flexibility to be able to say, look, we're small, but we are resource rich.
Our people, there's no reason that they should be poor.
There is absolutely no reason.
And why are we extracting more of their hard earned money when we're just devaluing it overnight anyway?
That's amazing. And maybe we could, we could talk a little bit about the kind of the energy piece and how Bitcoin mining factors in there, because obviously, okay, so you've got the oil, you have, I think some pretty large hydroelectric facilities as well.
And so there's one, there's one large hydro dam, well large, about a 180 megawatt capacity.
There was an expansion plan for that hydro dam, but it's facing, you know, conservation issues.
So that was never executed.
Other than that, there is, you know, the fossil fuels, we have massive amounts of oil.
And there is a proposal, actually a national commission that is currently negotiating 450 to 650 megawatt hydro dam.
That's been in planning for development for a while now.
And it's finally moving into where they actually want to tender for.
So that we do have the potential for more hydro power.
But I'd look towards more sustainable renewables and less, you know, harming, harming the environment.
But this is, you have to do a feasibility study or read the feasibility, the existing feasibility study to see the pros and cons and actually weigh that because you are laying a significant amount of forest, you know, underwater.
And then we have the facility, the ability to have more solar power grids as well on the on the lake as well as on the the Sifana and at, for example, remote villages, because remote villages are too far away to be connected to the hydro dam or the grid anyway.
So they need solar grids and adding Bitcoin mining as a component to that allows us to create a larger grid where you use the excess for mining and then as a community scales, you decrease the amount of mining.
So our only hurdle, like the bottleneck with that is is transportation.
They're very far, like every village, the rural village is either only accessible by boat or by air.
Wow. So that that, yeah, that makes things a little bit difficult.
But we're actually changing how we're looking at developing energy because, you know, usually a country does not develop an excess of energy more than that its population would need over a specific time frame, right?
With Bitcoin mining, we can actually we can actually incentivize the development of green energy plants with whatever technology is, you know, is is is applicable at the given site.
But basically by using adding Bitcoin, Bitcoin mining component to it that incentivizes, you know, that energy price right now energy prices are very subsidized.
Well, actually the whole the whole price calculation recently we saw a presentation where the whole price calculation was was done wrong and is actually supposed to be lower.
So the people themselves are not not the best buyer of energy as well.
So you can actually push them more towards, for example, solar, like insuring them all the houses are independent on their own little yard.
So you can actually implement solar a lot easier in the city.
So there's there's different ways that Bitcoin plays a role in this country.
And over the last year, it's been crazy how many, you know, use cases you just run into and people that reach out for here, for example, methane to energy.
We have a dump site.
And that has not been up to code since the 1970s. And that could be turned into an energy source.
So that can actually create another source of income for for the people as well.
If you add Bitcoin mining to it.
So those are solutions we're looking at in the mining space.
I think it's also important to just, you know, have the facilities for your own country so that you can mine your own.
Bitcoin and have that just be as a development strategy for the country.
And I'm just, yeah, I definitely decentralizing mining in general in terms of geolocation.
I love it. And, you know, you mentioned just the methane from landfills.
And I know I had Daniel Batten on this show a few episodes ago.
And what they're doing is just incredible in the fact that you can legitimately turn trash into treasure.
IE Bitcoin is amazing while also reducing the harm that those landfills are doing to communities nearby.
And I mean, you're generating revenue.
And in this case, if you're doing it at a sovereign level, even better.
And, you know, I'm also curious just in terms of other renewable sources, if you're thinking at all about Otec, the ocean, ocean thermal, because I just also had Nate Harmon on.
And he was mentioning that they may be working with some some country in in Latin America.
And now I want, he said he couldn't say too much.
So I won't push you either.
But I mean, your surname is equatorial, like it's right by the equator there.
So you are in literally one of the best possible places to do ocean thermal.
So I was just wondering if that was also on your radar a little bit.
They're actually having a meeting now while we're, I'm missing that meeting because I'm in this one.
I'm really honored that you're on this one.
But that's fantastic.
So see, you're already two steps out.
So, I mean, this is the incredible thing.
Like certain M is a small country.
I have never been, but I really look forward to traveling there hopefully someday soon.
Energy rich, incredibly, you know, diverse population and one that is probably, as you've said from the political structure, often difficult to all get rallied behind a particular cause because because of how divisive the politics are.
How has been or how has the reception been just either from people you've talked to or other folks in government, even if they're kind of on different, you know, different sides, they're waving different colored flags, whatever.
How has the reception been to these ideas in general, because at a certain point it gets really like when you say, look, we're going to, we're going to enable renewable build out and multiple ways, whether that be more hydroelectric, whether that be solar, whether that be Otec, we have ways to be able to get rid of taxes for our people and to also just become more independent as a net producer nation going forward.
I guess, how has the reception been and are you getting, are you getting pushed back from people and what does that pushback look like, I guess, what's the biggest kind of hurdle to get over when you're talking about these ideas, which may sound crazy at first, but at like once you dig into them, it's like, oh, well this, it seems too good to be true almost, but it is true.
It can happen.
Yeah, well it is here, it's mainly a positive reaction from almost all political parties, also because they've, I mean, they've, they've been hearing me speak about this for almost six years.
And then now I've, I've been on the media in the last couple of weeks about the Bitcoin mining site actually at the dam.
So I've been in the media speaking about it actively and I've held presentation at other political parties as well and the conversations that I'm, that we're having, you know, I'm very open, I'm very transparent, like I had no political, political ambition and I honestly, I swear to God, if I could do this, make it so that everything was automated on top of Bitcoin and just happens straight.
Transparenly and I could just move on to something else that would be the best possible outcome.
You know, at a certain point a country, I don't feel needs, you know, someone person to decide ultimately what happens in that country, even if you have a parliament.
I don't feel like that is a necessity with the technology that we have.
So that is, that is the ultimate dream.
I mean, you know, that's kind of a radical thing to say these days, like I want to get to the point where I'm running for a positions that I can make changes that will make my position irrelevant.
That's kind of the dream.
That is the dream. Yeah.
So I've been very transparent in these conversations and I said we need to move away from what I said earlier, party politics and, and, and, you know, have a focus and a vision for developing this country.
I need to collaborate.
So we're lobbying for what we call in Dutch a soccer cabinet, like a voluntary kind of just technocratic leadership that you put into place in certain a position and then just overhaul, restructure the system and then, you know, in a year have everything live everyone be able to live on just technology that's built on Bitcoin and just be completely living on a Bitcoin standard build the capital market that way make sure that resource allocation is done properly make that
certain resources flow directly to the people and increase their purchasing power compounded with the income that they already receive in Bitcoin in terms of other countries, right?
And we create a system of abundance for our population and hopefully that can be a blueprint for the rest of the world.
There's no reason why health care needs to be in the hands of government. I mean, you know, we've seen what has gone wrong in health care and with big pharma in the US, we're well aware of where how wrong it can go.
But we also have examples globally of how it can be done right.
So privatization does not have to be something specifically very bad for something like health care. Education doesn't have to be, you know, managed by government. It's completely gone to shit in this country.
The same goes for infrastructure, public works, for example, there if it's there's still corruption happening right now.
So if you do public tendering, if it's all trackable traceable, if anyone in the population can immediately see like, hey, that is where our resources are being spent for infrastructure and they can actually decide for their own community.
I'm a big fan of the Swiss Cantonal model, where you just have voting, you know, happening at a at a Cantonal level for that specific area.
If a bridge needs to be built, if a road needs to be built, they basically vote on whether or not that will happen, whether certain policies are enforced, like for example, COVID policies weren't enforced in all cantons.
So bringing the decision making back to the people where it's actually, to whom it is actually relevant, giving them power over their national resources, because those are right now just abused and then, you know, given to friends of politicians or used by politicians or by very small handful of people that have power in this country.
So it's very inefficient system.
You know, it's not like the US system where it is completely rigged and the global system monetary system that is completely outdated and then only perpetrated, you know, in mainstream media by its proponents like the institutions that depend on it to thrive and survive.
I think in Suriname we can, you know, build a new model from the ground up where it does never create it and make the system more efficient but actually work for the majority instead of the minority.
You know, even with real estate and investment with the REIT, something that I've been working on for the last two years and then something that I actually just wanted to dedicate the rest of my life to and be my only and main focus, not politics.
Then Samson came along.
Yeah, so it was just real estate and rethinking how, you know, because we're all bit corners but we still have a mortgage.
And honestly, with the interest rates in this country and the hassle that it is at a bank to even be able to get a mortgage, like the average person can't do that here.
So if you want to solve problems like that, you need to rethink how you purchase an asset, how you invest into a real estate.
And we looked at the model, we looked at Blackstone, we looked at the banking system and then we rethought the whole financial structure of a real estate investment trust and of traditional banking.
And how would that work with, you know, Bitcoin at its core and on a Bitcoin standard or in a Bitcoin economy.
And we looked at Singapore and how Singapore, in Singapore it was the state that took on real estate and real estate investment and developed a trust.
So if you kind of take that model but make it work for the people, for the majority instead of just floating, you know, to 1%.
And luckily that is how a traditional read in itself is already structured, 90% of the profits have to go back to the shareholder.
So if you're buying equity into a read, you're already, you know, increasing the amount of percentage you own and by default it flows back to the community.
So even with that we're thinking of something that can benefit the people, remove third parties like banks out of that equation and can actually bring them directly to the investors that are putting up the money to fund, you know, the development or the purchase of a property like that.
So it is, it allows for new innovation to happen and I think we've reached a phase in just in the industry as well.
I think you're removing away from just building things for just Bitcoiners and starting to build solutions that can actually scale for the rest of the population.
I mean, I love the Bitcoin space and I love just being around Toxic Maxis.
Like it's, you know, you feel free finally.
But just like the internet, not everybody gets how it works.
Not everybody gets why there's HTTP or HTTPS, you know, on that link, on that URL, on your browser.
Not everybody knows how, not everybody knows that there are cables in the ocean that connect us.
You know, they're not that many people that actually understand how the internet works, but they use it every day.
And I have the same thing here.
I try to orange bill people.
The community has grown from three people at a meetup to now more than a hundred.
The response and outreach by political parties, by companies, by just people in general has been amazing.
But still, it takes them a while to learn, you know, and understand exactly what Bitcoin is because it is a lot.
And even when you think you know, you realize you don't really know anything at all, right?
And you just keep learning and keep learning and keep going deeper down that rabbit hole.
So it's a journey for everyone. And I think if we keep requiring people or force people to learn how to do it our way,
that we shut out a lot of the people that do want to use it but can't, right?
Or don't know how. And the learning curve is just too steep.
And I love solutions that are very easy to use, like the NFC cards, you know, with Blink or whatever wallet integrates them.
You make it easier for the people to just tap and pay and you can make the amounts as small as possible so they can pay for anything.
And just show them that here, for example, and their mind is blown.
I've done some, you know, the orange building here and you show them like here, I'll send you some stats and they see how quickly it goes and their mind is blown.
So I think stop trying to over explain. I mean, do explain, do educate, right?
But show them more what it can do for them and what it can mean for them.
And I think especially come the elections, you know, being able to have that type of transparency and have government completely transparent online is the complete opposite of what they're having right now.
Like this government has not reported and there's the auditing institution of the country has stated that they cannot trust the government because they haven't released their annual reports yet
and certain divisions, administrations do not function that should be functioning in terms of auditing.
So it will be completely the opposite of what they've had with this government and it will be an improvement in at least government spending.
And if you privatize and automate away a lot of the bureaucracy that there is in these departments because a lot of these ministries we don't even need.
And just diversify the economy away from mainly half of our population works for government at the moment.
So we need to diversify them away from government because every government hires about 9 to 10,000, sometimes 6,000 people.
So every government just made that government machine a little bit too heavy.
Like there's not even enough work for the people that are working there to do.
So upskilling, reskilling and diversifying them, creating other job opportunities for them in technology would be I think the best strategy for the next at least five years to focus on to get us where we need to be in 2030.
This is such a radically refreshing thing to hear from some I feel bad even calling you a politician because I think it has this almost like dirty connotation these days like oh they're a politician like it seems almost unfair to call you that because what you're suggesting is a complete rethinking of how the modern state should function.
And kind of a radical transparency from what it sounds like really like minimalism when it comes to actual state apparatus size.
And it's just honestly incredibly refreshing to hear something like that.
I do have to wonder, given the number of people that work for the state bureaucracy in Suriname, do you foresee a good amount of pushback when it comes to like if you're running on a platform of I want to minimize the state.
I have to imagine there's going to be a good amount of pushback against that but I would hope that at the same time what you're proposing as look I'm not trying to take away your job I'm trying to put you in a position to get a job that is actually productive actually producing value versus more extraction.
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Yeah well we've actually ran the calculations and with the existing resources that we have now royalties from our national resources.
The government is actually just funneling money to these people so you can actually transition them away from government set a specific period of time that these resources will be directly channeled towards them.
And then just have a period of rescaling teaching them other job skills or finding other industries for them to be able to work in which is why we focus on finance and technology because that is where you can actually place 40 to 60,000 people in a span of two to three years reeducate them and have them go into other move into other industries.
So that's how we were looking to solve this problem even before we receive royalties from offshore oil.
So just thinking about how can we solve this major problem right now with the finances that the country has now that the people have now.
And this actually the solution is removing government from that equation just give them the resources directly it actually increases their purchasing power because now they have more to spend.
Right.
And if the government like actually still needs to let's say in a transitory period transition in a transition in a transition period have to for example build roads or you know raise raise capital to be able to finance that that can be done in the Bitcoin bond something that
Samsung himself has has worked on in the past. So there are ways to to transition, you know, completely to Bitcoin but we will be earning enough in fiat to actually cover cover a universal basic income which is also have for some reason has become a dirty word.
But that is because it's it would be coming from taxes but if you don't charge taxes. It's not coming from our taxes is coming directly from our resources and a proportion of which, you know, it's just a percentage of which will be going to these people and hopefully over time similar to what has happened in Switzerland when the people
their standard of living is well enough when they earn well enough when the country's economy is doing well enough and growing, then they themselves will not have a need and actually vote against receiving that UBI favoring it going towards you know the development for future generations
creating wealth for for for other and generations that will come after them because we as a species we're only limited to think, you know, to to what is close to us are our direct line of you know children grandchildren but you don't look forward past certain amount like certain generations anymore.
But in Switzerland they have had that you know happen voting against UBI. So we do think that if you create the infrastructure the climate for people to thrive we develop you know a technology innovation free zone where Bitcoin companies can thrive and develop and test their their products without the fear of constantly being you know being hammered or sent by by government or
financial authorities in their country because we were working towards actually being in a breeding ground for development that creates jobs right for locals and then other other sectors that they can diversify into that would have never existed before.
So we create this this funnel and world when hopefully similar to what El Salvador also has had to increase in tourism increase in talent moving there attracting foreign capital and talent I mean there's no lack of US dollars in the world there's enough that that has been printed in the last three years so we should be able to attract some some decent significant investment into the countries specifically because we'll be doing multiples
in the future.
If you look at Guyana next or you can kind of predict what our country is going to do in terms of GDP growth right they did during COVID years 40% during years where other countries were doing negative GDP growth they were doing 48% year over year.
So they've and they've also built are building a significant sovereign wealth fund similar to what we'll be doing starting in 2028 so the future is bright we just need to have a strategy on how we can change and adapt it.
And I think more than you know strengthening what El Salvador has already started but taking it one step further and also like making the not just the use case but showing actually that Bitcoin as a replacement for a central bank system for a debt based system that actually can work.
I think that will be you know that is when we win right gone through all the stages now we're in the day five to stay or actually if you if they can't beat them join them phase it looks like more but it looks like we're in those final stages at least with regulators but I think this is one of the catalyst that could help push us over the edge where you actually have a proof of concept like it actually works you don't need a debt based system and you can have transparency you can
have an ethical government or you can have a government that is actually met like it does what it's meant to do without you know yeah manipulating or or yeah rigging the system to benefit it you know certain amount of its its its members but that it actually works for the people and that is actually of this age.
So we can as a region you know as a Latin America as a continent can start focusing on regional development you know developing roads from each country to the other improving trade I think we'll get it also spoke about this improving trade in between these countries because we don't even have roads that connect us we don't have trains that connect us like if you want to go from from the Netherlands to Spain with a train you can if you
want to do that here you can't you can be in one country or the other in a couple of hours without needing to make some kind of weird layover somewhere so it you know it doesn't it doesn't really make sense we're not very collaborative among amongst each other.
So we need to make a shift into a strategy that is not the same as what the West has been preaching or pretending to preach. Right it's it's basically just focused on on issues of the moment issues at hand but nothing we really proposing and a different dynamic than than what has already been so I feel like we as as a continent we have twice the population of the US we have.
A diversity of resources and culture and and.
Rain forest we are the lungs of the of the world right now.
So that we should be in a position to have a seat at the global table and the global conversation and be able to you know create a vision for the development of our continent without.
The interference or influence of just US companies or European companies that tell us what or how we need to do it.
You know it's mainly the Google's coming in here and.
You know building a headquarters and basically that is what the future will you know will be.
Starlink.
You know distribute satellites all over the world that is the internet that will will be using we don't even have a seat or.
Companies that can compete at that level because most of the resources of our nations have been flowing to those to develop them.
So I believe it's time for the entire continent to change and hopefully the rest of the world can then in you know I'm assuming this will take about a decade.
The rest of the world can fall suit and then we can move from being a species that constantly needs to fight war to one that can.
Like I don't know can we live like Trekkies.
Am I allowed to say that.
No you know what I love is that when you're describing these plans it's very obvious that you're not thinking in like four or five year election cycles like we you know in the US we have four year cycles and.
All plans are typically measured in those four year cycles because politicians know they've got a promise something before the election.
Then they've got four years to blame the other party for why they weren't able to actually accomplish what they wanted to do.
And then when they run again they get to reuse the same thing for the next election to say but this time I'm going to get it done and over and over ad nauseam.
But the way that you're talking about your plans.
You're talking in in in decades like you're you're talking about in generations not just.
Okay what am I going to do to get elected but no no no you're already thinking about second and third order effects of okay yeah like you be I.
A very contentious issue.
No doubt because usually the way it's proposed by people in the US or in Canada for example or in the EU.
It's going to be funded by a combination of printing fiat and taxes with just enough taxes take it you know enough taxing the rich out of the rich.
That they can cover over the money printing that's actually funding it but it's always just it's a it's a short term bandaid they say well well the cost of living is so high we should give everyone you be I and that'll fix it but of course that's only going to exacerbate the cost of living because they're doing it via fiat printing.
What you're suggesting is we have abundant resources we are a net producer so we can give those dividends back to our people without needing to print fiat to do so.
And I think that's a really fundamental difference in UBI approaches for for anyone but for Bitcoiners especially who hear UBI and think what is this socialist crap like.
Like that if a country that is productive and is not just extracting resources from its population and then devaluing their savings through fiat printing should be able to give dividends back to its people like it should be run like a well oiled machine like a you know a state corporation and you know I'm not suggesting fascism here to anyone listening just to clarify you know but I think that it's really it's a nice thing to hear somebody talk about.
Plans in terms of generations and I think that it's very difficult for a lot of folks in political power right now.
Whether that be in certain M where you have people you know in their 60s or 70s or in power or in the US where our presidential candidates are all like 80 years old.
How can they possibly think long term when their lives are almost over.
Like it's just it's not realistic. They're trying to see how much they can grab before they kick the bucket and you know that's about as far as they think.
And so I just want to say it's a it's very cool to hear this and I think can you can you maybe elaborate a little bit more on what your kind of what your model for the the state is in this modern era.
Because what you're proposing is again I think to someone like me like this sounds amazing you're talking about decreasing the state's role but you're also talking about the state being able to.
Provide very basic functions that are net benefits for its people as opposed to many of the things the states do now across the world which are I think net negatives.
Can you elaborate a little bit more on like more generally what you think the role of the modern state should be in this kind of technological great reset that we and monetary reset that we're in the midst of.
How do you like what do you think is the role of the state what should actually do for its people. What is the point of it.
Well developing the economy for one that is you know a part of its well actually should more be a facilitator role by government you know enabling the private sector to thrive on the economy to grow but not actually controlling it.
And in a similar trend a development plan for the country itself. Right. There are certain sectors that correspond to each other or need to be developed or certain sectors that.
Need government guidance like energy for example energy you can privatize but the government still has to make sure that the legal policies and like the legal frameworks are in place to protect consumers.
So I think we need to find a balance between policy and regulation that actually enables you know like for example energy to develop and thrive and then for that for that sector to grow without it harming consumers.
So the role of government in that case would actually be more of a transition for it to be privatized but with the right policies in place to protect consumers from you know just bad actors in in that sector.
So it would be more of a I think facilitator role and then in in sectors like ministries like education. Natural resources for example those are things where the things where the government has a negotiating power but there's no reason why that doesn't have to happen transparently.
Right. Why do oil contracts gold contracts resources that are owned by the entire population. Why do they have to be held in in closed rooms in and have to be you know negotiated by one single commission that's representing the the government that the people have no have not elected for example.
So there's certain things where government has to still play a role that can hopefully be automated away later but that there are things that were you know from a policy perspective from an administrative perspective you're still going to need some physical form of government.
That can represent the people but I see no reason why that couldn't happen in in the public eye.
Right. If you increase transparency over for example utility companies there for their financing.
Then there is no reason why that cannot you know work to the benefit of the people.
And I think specifically because our country is so small private sector is fairly small as well our GDP is 3.2 billion.
So you can actually enable that private sector to thrive off for example just the income without any government influence whatsoever.
So I really believe that we should decrease government overreach and go move move in and this this you know it differs per specific ministry because education will need a completely different overhaul than than for example health care.
There are systems that can automate health care and hospitals are state owned but they don't even have basic medical supplies right now like you can get an IV bag you need.
There's there's there are no beds available in one of the hospitals.
So it's it's it's a dire situation at the moment and private hospitals can for example become very commercial and bad like in the U.S. where it's become you know like the margins are just insane that they charge for for example insulin and just when you go to the hospital for example the bill you get.
That is your savings sometimes right or more than your savings sometimes you need to remortgage your house just to be able to afford your medical expenses so to to avoid something like that for example example happening here because the cost of health care is fairly low.
And there's no reason for it to be sky high but there's no reason for it to be bad either like you can you know you can improve in in in sectors like that same goes for health care.
But there's no need for government involvement in that either something as our national resources right now you have a lot of natural resources that have been given to you know the vice president or to their family members and those are mining gold that is actually belongs to the population of this country.
So restructuring that sector specifically the gold sector that would create a lot like direct source of income that would increase like it would immediately create more wealth for the entire population if it's not just in the hand of a corrupt you.
But then you'd need systems also you know to make sure that that it actually is going to the population.
But I see again no reason why that can happen transparently and publicly.
If you're not planning on doing any corruption not nobody on our team is incentivized to you know need some kind of additional income coming from this because honestly we're what we do well enough as as entrepreneurs on our own and we you know we can probably earn more than you would in as her D.
I think a minister minister right now makes I think 1200 US if you converted to US dollars so it's not you know we're not incentivized that is not why we're doing this we have a love of this country we still like to see it develop we have hope in its future and we see we see how bad it is right now.
Everybody on the team is fighting against you know corruption at some point and has been in the media at some point about corruption so we we want to see change and I think we all we're all very innovative for you know technocrats we prefer to see solutions that use just the latest technology like what is the use of all this inefficiency and bureaucracy.
And I think by that we're also improving our own lives and by extension everybody else in the country but I think primarily it's also what just annoys us as you know a younger generation that grew up on on both not having computers but then you know you grew I was three years old playing around with you know assembling a PC back then and and grew up on on DOS.
So we're a generation that has experienced both right so we we want the efficiency that the internet has to offer but we do want like a bit more structure and transparency and in it as well.
Yeah I think I think we've just reached an inflection point in this country and I think just world and society as a whole and it just feels like everything up till now and then even like this yet this last six years or this last decade like everything has been.
You know a decade of work that is now coming into play and and kind finally you know coming into execution and it's just like everything is falling into place.
Even other political parties even you know influential people here in the country even just the amount of support that I'm receiving is just it's it's crazy how everything is just kind of like Kismet happening because it should.
Right time right place right people right ideas right technology kind of a beautiful confluence coming together.
Yeah exactly exactly.
No I I love that and I'm curious you have gone through so much incredible stuff here and the plans that you have are really inspiring and actionable and but also at the same time may seem.
Complex or like you know so many of the things involving Bitcoin it's like it seems almost too good to be true but but it is true but what is your like condensed you know elevator pitch version of to you know the people of certain
and for OK here's why you know here's what we can actually do for you as a people here's what we can do for this country here's the change we can make what what is that kind of condensed version that is understandable to anyone what does that look like.
Well I would say one ending inflation that is something that they can directly and immediately relate to because that is something that they have been feeling for for decades ending corruption creating more transparency creating a way for them to
immediately see where you know where our natural resources are being spent and how government spending is happening and where it's going to improving and modernizing health care education.
Creating better systems because they've been systemically abused by government after government and that is just because of the centrality centralization of power right.
So decentralization of power and giving the power back to the people I think that is something that we can actually achieve here with an actionable strategy if we collaborate if we work together.
You know I mean there are enough people and great the best minds in the world actually in this space and more and more are joining.
So I think if we just join forces if everybody just collaborates that we can you know actually achieve that domino effect we can actually have you know more company more countries more countries adopting Bitcoin and actually have you know it spreading.
Once you see that it's successful because you can see how it started in El Salvador how it's how it's doing then you have Suriname next then you have we already have you know some other countries that are also looking at it countries that are just buying it countries that are investing or diversifying more into mining.
So it's already spreading spreading but it will just be a more rapid way to actually show that government the state doesn't have to be the way it is right now that the world doesn't have to be the way that it is right now that we shift away from.
I feel like the world is in in kind of like a whirlwind at the moment or the whirlpool like just kind of spiraling and spiraling and spiraling down and we just need to have like one little boat that.
You know finds figures out a way to take it up and then the rest of the rest will follow so I that is what I envision for this country.
And what I hope that you know I can help build for my kids and my grandkids a future that I would be proud of to bring kids into this world so.
Yeah that's what I'm dedicating the rest of my life towards and I hope that you know this generation in Suriname understands that we have a unique opportunity to be a global leader and be a force for change in the world and be.
You know we can change this country and change the economy and we can build a country where you know even people that have moved away would want to come back to similar to what's happening in El Salvador again I'll use that that that example where it's just proof of proof that it works.
If you're if there is hope if there is prosperity if you believe that you have a future and that your leader has your country's best interest at heart and your best interest at heart that you can you can you know build build a future there and that that do you want to live in that country.
And that hopefully in a couple of years I'll be redundant and we can have a different form of you know of a country or how a country interacts with its institutions because I don't think we need to be governed right we're not sheep or at least I hope we're no longer.
I love that and it's a it's a great message and I I love the idea I mean seeing I had the pleasure of going to El Salvador a couple of times in 2022 ended up going back the same year for adopting Bitcoin went there just for a vacation on a whim to see what it was all about and then was back a couple months later and and and just loved it and loved the the genuine hope and excitement.
For the future that people had that you could genuinely feel that it was palpable and of course not every you know you truly cannot please everyone all the time.
There are always going to be people that are that are detractors that are not happy with something but what I saw was that the vast majority of people were happy and did have hope and as you said people are going back people who left El Salvador.
Long time ago are now coming back because they have hope again that that to me is one of the strongest indications you have when expatriates come back and repatriate again.
That means that they see a they see a chance for their homeland to thrive and that's a powerful thing and I think you know these countries like El Salvador like Suriname that are small enough where perhaps a lot of the world forgot about them for a while or the only times that they would be appearing in the western press was for corruption or gang violence I can El Salvador only negative things.
Now you're seeing that narrative shift and in a really positive direction and shift quickly and I think that's kind of the beautiful thing is that it's like this entrenched corruption or entrenched violence.
It can be around for truly decades for generations but it just takes one generation one generation of leaders and people who are willing to take a step out of that like you said you know to steer their boat out of that vortex of doom.
It just takes that one generation to be able to make really powerful changes that then set up the future generations to actually have a have a homeland that is one they can really be proud of and so I think I absolutely love what you're doing I wish you nothing but success I don't think you need luck.
It seems that you've got a lot of a lot else going for you but I am curious and for anyone listening to this.
I hope I'm not from Suriname but what is the best way that Bitcoiners or anyone listening can support your efforts can try and make a difference you know are there grassroots initiatives in Suriname that they can donate to or that they can volunteer for come visit or what's the best way for people to be able to to make some sort of contribution monetary or otherwise.
Well there's a lot of grassroots adoption and projects that are rolling off the ground so education.
There is a soccer academy that recently launched a federation and they need funding to keep the program going and scale it throughout the country right now it's 1300 families and he's funding it out of his own savings and he's been doing that for a year so he needs support in funding there on Geyser so that would be a good project to support.
What's it called?
Novasarys.
That's awesome.
Yes.
That's really cool.
And we have other grassroots projects that could use help you know in terms of education we the the soccer academy also wants to teach the kids skills so development skills so that is somewhere where we need help but I'd say just join the Bitcoin
Telegram group and then basically offer you know offer to explain what you can do because that is also something you know people come in to the group and and say that they want to help but we don't know where we could actually use their help.
So just hop into the telegram group and there's you know Suriname is already in their big corners from the Bitcoin community here already in there.
So just offer your help and move here.
That's another good option that we need we need more people on the ground too and actually people are moving here so start off in telegram if you can but visit if you can.
I think Carl and I'll have to take you up on the visit.
Bring the little one with us to drop the links for for their Geyser and then also for this telegram group.
I'll drop that in the show notes as well and for folks who want to connect with you.
Noster Twitter I'll drop them in there anywhere else they should go where you want to send people.
Yeah.
It's not it's mainly noster.
I yeah I respond later on on X but that's fantastic.
I will link that at the top then but my thank you so much for sharing your scarce time.
This was really fascinating and I love what you are doing.
I love learning about it and I hope this inspires other Bitcoiners as well that I think one of the most amazing things here is that this is not something you were you were seeking.
You know you weren't saying I want to be a politician.
I want to hold this political office.
We can blame Samson for this but you know I think those are the best people and the people that should actually be in leadership roles and when it comes to whatever government we have are the ones that don't want it because the ones that do want it and want it way too much generally don't have the best intentions.
And I think we see that across the world but really appreciate your time.
This was fantastic and I look forward to seeing you win this thing.
I hope I hope I will be able to say you know I got a chance to interview the next president of Suriname because that'd be quite an honor.
I'm going to cut this recording right here.
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