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If we allow ourselves to just be coerced into giving away our rights and our sovereignty

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and our power and our finances, then a lot of very scary things can happen and we can sleepwalk

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into totalitarianism and we want to avoid that at all costs. And in order to avoid that,

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you need to become aware, you need to educate yourself.

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Greetings and salutations my fellow plebs. My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast.

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The Bitcoin block height is 816908 and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.

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Today's episode is Bitcoin Talk where I talk with my guest about Bitcoin and many other things as

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well. Today that guest is Natalie Brinnell, Emmy Award-winning journalist and host of the

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Coin Stories podcast and Hard Money. Unless you live under a rock, you've probably seen clips of

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Natalie on CNBC and Fox Business where she's become a go-to Bitcoin commentator who cuts through

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the usual cable TV BS and delivers genuine Bitcoin signal to the legacy media audience.

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I really enjoyed picking Natalie's brain in this conversation because she has such

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unique experience in terms of being part of the old mainstream media, then leaving it behind and

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building a career for herself in the new mainstream, covering Bitcoin and money in general. We talk

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about the role of journalists as government watchdogs versus lapdogs, how media is changing,

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no-ster and media decentralization, her upbringing and what orange pilder, why Bitcoin and Bitcoiners

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give us hope and a whole lot more. You can find all Natalie's links and accounts in the show notes

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or by going to Bitcoinpodcast.net slash words. You can watch the Bitcoin podcast on Rumble,

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YouTube or X by searching for at Walker America or listen on fountain.fm or wherever you get your

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podcast by searching for the Bitcoin podcast. If you listen on fountain, consider giving the show

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a boost or creating a clip of something you found interesting. For those that have boosted this show

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already or zapped me on no-ster, thank you. If you haven't checked out fountain yet, I highly

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recommend it. You can send Bitcoin to your favorite podcasters and earn Bitcoin just for

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listening to this show. Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk with Natalie Brunel.

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Peter, when I interviewed him last week, he gave me the insight of the pre-roll, which I was

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initially like, okay, I'll have my intro conversation and then I'll press record and I'll be good to

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go. And he's like, no, you need to have the pre-roll. Now I've learned something new from Peter.

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But so again, and this is just maybe I'll include some of this, maybe I won't, we'll see. I have a

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number of questions for you, but I really just want to chat with you and try to get kind of the

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human side again. I think that it's nice to interview the interviewers. You are so often on

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one side of things and you have such an amazing story that I've had the privilege of getting to

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know a little bit just from being friends with you. And I think that the more people that hear

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that, it's just a wonderful thing and it speaks so much to why you're doing what you're doing in

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the space today. And I think that that's really powerful. So if you're good with it, we can just,

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yeah, well, thank you for what you do. We can just kind of dive in. Yeah, I'm only more comfortable

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asking than receiving the questions, but yeah, we'll go with it. I can imagine, but I've seen

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you do pretty well across multiple arenas. So I think you'll be just fine, certainly on this

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little podcast. But with that then, so I'll just give a quick intro because I'm still figuring this

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out. I'm not a seasoned professional as you are. So excuse my novice status, but I'll do my best.

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So with that little pre-roll, preamble, greetings and salutations, my fellow clubs. My name is

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Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast. Today's episode is Bitcoin Talk and I am joined by someone

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who talks about Bitcoin a lot. That is Natalie Brunel. She is the host of Coin Stories, which I

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just saw when I was doing my background digging, the number one woman hosted Bitcoin podcast,

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which makes complete sense given how massive it is. So congrats on that. Maybe soon the number

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one Bitcoin podcast period who can say. Don't tell Peter. No, I don't have a lot of competition yet,

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unfortunately with women hosted, but very grateful for that title nonetheless. Absolutely. And you

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have a pretty amazing background too because you spent about 10 years doing local and national

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investigative journalism. You won an Emmy for some of your work. I think I've seen it sitting,

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shining on that shelf behind you at one time or another. And that's pretty incredible. And you

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also, you've got your masters of science and journalism from Northwestern, correct? Yes.

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So you are, and I like to think of you Natalie as one of the last real American journalists.

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In this era where we have seen the title of journalist used to be something that meant

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something and I feel that it has lost so much of its meaning as we've seen so much influence come

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into it. So I think that, you know, I'd like to dive into that a little bit, but first I'd like to

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start at the beginning. I just want to know in your own words, who is Natalie Brunel? How did she

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get here today? What was that journey like? Sure. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having

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me on the show. I'm really excited that you're doing this. There are not enough Bitcoin podcasts,

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so I applaud you for starting the newest. Yeah, I mean, for those that don't know my story, I have

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always wanted to be a journalist. I'm a first generation immigrant. My family came to the U.S.

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from Poland. Parents grew up under communism, much like your beautiful wife, Carla's. And so

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they always raised me with a strong work ethic, skepticism towards central authority.

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And the reason I always was attracted to news and storytelling is because we watched a lot of news

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and television and movies growing up because it helped my parents learn English. So I was always

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attracted to that industry. I think I started to look at the world through a four angled lens,

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and I just really wanted to be a part of it. At the time, I think that journalism and being an

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anchor was such a noble profession. And I saw women who got to travel the world and interview

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influential people and policymakers. And I thought, what an incredible job you get to always learn

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and you have meaning in your community. And so I pursued it. And I've pretty much been doing

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the same thing that I've learned in college for the last decade plus. I mean, in school, I was

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writing stories, interviewing people, putting together videos, learning how to edit because

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by the time I got to college, a lot of people were becoming one man bands, so to speak, making less

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and less of course than people that were not doing the one man ban job a decade before. And yeah,

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I just, I've always loved storytelling and getting to know people. So that's sort of the

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background. And obviously when I learned about Bitcoin, I was fascinated by the people in it,

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the people that were spreading the message and spreading the education and helping teach me.

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I wanted to know how did they find Bitcoin? How why were they displaying such conviction?

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And how did they build their careers? Because I've always been inspired by origin stories and

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biographies. So yeah, that's sort of my background. And of course, you wrapped it up so succinctly

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succinctly with the bow. Your professionalism always shows through. And I think what you do

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with coin stories is so amazing because there are, you know, obviously, this is another fucking

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Bitcoin podcast. There are a lot of Bitcoin podcasts. There are a lot of podcasts in general.

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But I think at least within Bitcoin, what people really crave, because there's a lot of people

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doing macro, there's a lot of people doing technical stuff. But people want to hear those

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stories. They want the human side of it. And that's what you deliver so well in coin stories.

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You know, even when I posted about this on on Noister and Twitter that you were coming on here,

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a lot of people, I think just they were very excited. Some of them had some questions, others

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were just like, Yeah, I can't wait to watch because again, you're somebody who is telling

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other people's stories so much. You're telling all these origin stories of Bitcoin. How did you

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get orange pilled? But I think a lot of people also wanted to know what was your did you have a

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moment of orange pilling yourself? What what was that like? When did things start to, you know,

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to click? Yeah, I love these stories because I think that they really tell you a lot about who

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a person is, where they come from and what motivates them. And so for me, I think I had a pain point.

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My parents, in addition to the fact that they were first generation immigrants and knew what it was

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like to have a very top down control government and scarcity because of production being botched by

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central authority. But then they worked really, really hard here as immigrants. My, my tell stories

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that my dad used to wake up at three o'clock in the morning and have to scrape all the ice off of

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his car because we didn't have a garage. I literally thought people who had a garage were wealthy.

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That's that was my my my standard. And and I just I saw them finally be able to achieve a small

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middle class American dream by being able to buy a small townhouse when I was in high school.

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I lived in it for about four years and then I went off to college and then the great financial

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crisis hit and they lost they lost everything. They went under, they had a downsize to a tiny

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one bedroom apartment. I saw their dreams just totally shattered. It really took a toll on their

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marriage. And I just I wondered how could this happen to two hardworking people who played by

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all the rules and played by, you know, paid all their taxes. They were good people who just wanted

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a better life for their children and they totally got the rug pulled out from under them. And so

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many millions of other Americans were in the same boat. Meanwhile, the executives were getting

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bonuses and the Wall Street banks were getting bailed out. And so I felt a true injustice.

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And I entered my career in journalism with that sort of plant seed planted. And I think I had a

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fire that I wanted to hold the powerful account accountable. That's why I went into investigative

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journalism because I thought, you know what, I'm going to go after these guys. This is so not not

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fair. This is not what the American dream stands for. And certainly not what my parents sacrificed

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so much to come here to experience. And then I realized that I was wrong about so many of the

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assumptions I had made about our economy. Before I learned about Bitcoin and economics and capitalism,

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I was one of those people who thought, Oh, tax the rich, you know, it's the rich who got us and

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and we need to go after them. They need to share the wealth, not realizing how completely backwards

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I was and how wealth needs to emerge and money needs to emerge from a productive economy that

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can't be manipulated and that is based on on something fair that can't be inflated and just

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printed by the government. So I had to really go through that process. And that didn't happen until

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2017 is when I first heard about Bitcoin. Of course, I was skeptical, dismissive, thought no

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way. This will definitely be hacked and I'll probably lose all my money. But hey, I need money. So

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I'm just going to gamble with some of mine and buy some Bitcoin. And then the life changing moment

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for me truly life changing was reading the Bitcoin standard because a mentor of mine gave that to

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me a couple years after I started to invest in Bitcoin. And I literally had this aha moment

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where I just I sat back, my jaw was to the floor and I thought, this is why my family experienced

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everything they did, why I'm reporting on all these people suffering from cost of living going up and

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not being able to make ends meet and not knowing what to do. I mean, this is literally

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what happened. Our money is broken. And here we have a potential solution. And then I just

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wanted to gobble up all this information about it and go down the rabbit hole. So

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it was transformative for me learning about Bitcoin because it connected a lot of dots

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and allowed the seeds of what had been planted when I was very young to finally come to fruition.

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I think that that book for so many people, I'm so grateful that safety wrote it because it was

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I it was eye opening for me as well. And I think, you know, so many people have that same story

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where even if you were studying Bitcoin a little bit before that, it wasn't until reading that

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book where you just he puts things in a really beautiful way where it's hard to refute and you

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realize, oh, wait a minute, people are angry at the wrong people, they're angry at the wrong

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institutions. They're the things that they think are the problems that they think are the causes

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are actually just the symptoms. The symptoms of the underlying problem, which is the money is

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broken and when money breaks, so breaks everything else. And I think that that, at least for me,

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when I am either watching, you know, the I don't have cable TV, but when I do watch clips of it,

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you know, on YouTube or whatever, usually they're yours, maybe sailors money on on some mainstream

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outlet. Yeah, sailors way better. You know, you're giving him a run for his money, though. But

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one of the frustrating things I think for me and for a lot of Bitcoiners, and I can imagine for

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you as somebody who actually knows how to be a real journalist, is that when you see reporting on

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these types of stories, you see reporting about inequality, or about cost of living, the cost

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of living one is, you know, a really obvious one, because they talk about prices rising and they

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talk about inflation, which they're really referring to just prices rising. As if it just

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comes out of nowhere, it's this it's this boogeyman that appears because of Vladimir Putin or because

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of COVID. And of course, there are supply side things that have a huge impact. Yes. But they

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never talk about the only thing that is really at the base, which is that they are just printing so

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much money, they're creating money out of nothing. And so I'm curious from from your time in, let's

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call it, let's call it legacy media, because I think like, I mean, you look at your, your podcast,

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your YouTube channel, I think some of your YouTube videos get more views than a prime time TV slot,

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these days. Because I mean, the main the mainstream is no longer the mainstream, it's the legacy,

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I think independent creators have become that mainstream. But how do you see the media landscape

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changing? Do you think that and how do you see Bitcoin impacting that? Like, is there some greater

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truth that gets brought to legacy journalism? Because they at a certain point, they just they

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can't lie anymore? Gosh, yeah, there's so much to unpack there. And I did I really saw my industry

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changing. And first, I didn't see it from the economic side. I just saw it on the technology

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side, right? Because I mentioned earlier that when I was watching the legacy anchors that I looked

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up to, they didn't also shoot their own video, edit it, go live by themselves. And yet when I

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entered into the profession, you were basically expected to do the job of five people, yet you

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were paid less than what one person, what one of those roles was paid just a couple decades

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before. Actually, one of my one of my close friends who I believe you've met, she her father was an

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anchor man. And so he saw this shift happen. And she studied broadcast journalism with me. And he

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told her, don't go into it, like, don't go into it, it's dying, you should you should do something

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else. So she ended up in in law school. I didn't have someone like that to give me advice. And I

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had no idea where the ball was sort of rolling. I mean, when I was little, the internet was starting

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to come out. But no one knew how much it would transform all of our lives and business. And

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for news, it totally changed the business model. And now all of a sudden, these television stations

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that used to get so much advertising revenue, they now had to compete with online newspapers,

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but also independent creators who were coming out. I mean, I've interviewed people like Michelle

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Fan, who I'm like, I wish I had the courage when I was younger and YouTube was just starting out to

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just to just go and start creating. But I think from my immigrant background, I would, I always

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just wanted to play by the rules and do things very traditionally. And so I bought into the whole

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thing that, you know, I got to get the degree and get the, you know, a small town reporter job and

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work my way to the middle sized town to the top town. And I did things a very old school way,

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which I don't necessarily recommend. I think we should blaze a trail and and and take chances

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because they can really pay off. But certainly ever since learning about Bitcoin, I also saw the

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economics and the economic incentives and how that have also transformed media, because now it feels

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sometimes, and I don't, I don't mean this for all journalists and I'll, I'll share why. I'm having

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worked in the space for so long, but overall, when you zoom out, the media in general seems to be

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much more biased, much more political, and almost as if they're in some cases lap dogs for the

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government as opposed to watchdogs. Journalism is supposed to be that fourth branch that's

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supposed to keep an eye and make sure that everything, you know, isn't going in the direction of

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corruption. But all of a sudden you see them sharing a lot of the same messaging and narratives that

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maybe the government wants put out there, certain sides of the government or certain agendas. So I

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have been, I've been disillusioned, but if you zoom in to the micro level, I sympathize with a lot

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of reporters, especially local television reporters, because again, I never got an education in financial

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literacy. So I didn't have a starting point to understand, first of all, that I should question

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inflation, right? I mean, most of us before Bitcoin, we're like, yeah, everything just gets more

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expensive and it was easier for our parents generation to buy a house and for us, not so much.

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But we don't question why and we don't, we don't peel back those layers and we absolutely should

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because half the things that I was reporting on on a local level was the fact that people were

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struggling more and more. Eventually it turned divisive and more political and left versus right.

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But the starting point was after the great financial crisis, a lot of people struggling and

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struggling to build back. Meanwhile, you know, QE started and I had no idea what that was at the time,

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but bam, like recovery for the banks and the people at the top and then they made exponential

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amounts of wealth. So I think it starts with education because I think a lot of reporters

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were like me, they set out with very good intentions, like maybe a lot of people who go

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into politics due to, but the incentive system kind of kind of alters that. Now there's a huge

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incentive in media to get the big interview or to have the exclusive with maybe an elected official.

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And a lot of times you see reporters getting very cozy with certain political entities. And

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that's not right. We really should be watchdogs and people should kind of be afraid of the

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investigative journalists is coming around, right? They shouldn't be super excited to see you because

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you're just going to do a fluff piece. They should be a little bit worried that you're going to

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scratch the surface on something. And yeah, so I know that's a long-winded answer, but the economic

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model has changed. The technological model has changed. And I'm just grateful that decentralized

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media in the form of podcasts and online platforms and social media has allowed me this opportunity

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to talk about Bitcoin. Because when I tried to do stories on Bitcoin, I was very limited. I could

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do one here or there, but instead I had to focus on a lot of these breaking news tragedies and

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disasters, which was very negative. And now I get to focus on something that is ultimately so positive

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and talks about how the world can become a better place if we fix the money.

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Well, that was a beautiful answer. And there's multiple things I want to put a pin in and come

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back to. But just to start with what you finished with, which is kind of being able to talk about

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Bitcoin and in a legacy media setting now, I mean, you are on Fox Business, you are on CNBC,

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you are kind of this go-to voice now when they need someone who's actually coherent and can

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string together a full intelligent sentence or two about what Bitcoin actually is, what it represents.

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One of your recent interviews with Charles Payne, I thought was just fantastic because you touched

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on the younger generation and that kind of pain of realizing I'm not going to be able to afford

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even my parents' modest lifestyle that they had, that realization that the cards are stacked against

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me and I'm in a hold that there's no way to get out of. It's how have you found, I'd love to,

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if we can maybe go back, how did you start becoming that go-to Bitcoin voice on CNBC,

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on Fox Business? Because you've had quite, I mean, innumerable appearances now. Each one of them is

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like this incredible little bit of Bitcoin wisdom. What was the first one of those shows that you

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went on to talk about Bitcoin? Gosh, I don't know when it started. It must have been late 2021. I left

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my job in October 2021, so it wasn't long after that. It's certainly when they don't need a legitimate

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CEO to come and talk about P&L, right? Because I don't have that background, but I've been really

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grateful for these opportunities because I do hope to represent a side of this community that

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doesn't come from a super techie background, that doesn't come with the engineering degree and the

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finance degree, but was able to learn all of this and who really genuinely believes in this technology,

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was able to get a grasp on it, to teach it at a 101 level and who thinks that it can change our

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future. That's what I represent. I think my background has helped in the sense that I used to have to

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work eight or nine hours a day to put on 90 seconds of television. It's one of the reasons why I love

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podcasts and wanted one because so much of my experience throughout the day reporting would

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just get shrunk to a tiny little couple sound bites and 10 seconds on the air introducing my

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story. I had to get very good at being concise and cutting stuff out and just doing quick hits,

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but you miss a lot, right? You miss the experience of getting the full story, of doing the full

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interview. The one thing that I try to remember is that you only have a short amount of time to

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reach people and what you ultimately want to do is they'll probably forget everything you said,

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but they may not forget how you made them feel. One book that always stuck with me when I was in

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journalism school was a book called Aim for the Heart and it was about tapping into the emotion,

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universal emotions through stories where no matter who you are, no matter what your background or job

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is, no matter if you came from poverty or wealth, we all relate to a lot of the same experiences

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and we all want to connect with people. We want to feel accepted and loved and appreciated and we

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can all relate to struggle. I try to tap into those human experiences because I think that they're

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the most memorable and relatable and I think that no matter who you are and where you come from,

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you want to see a world where people have more opportunity rather than less and you want to see

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a world where there's less wealth concentration and inequality and so many people just don't

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realize that the money is broken and that that's the very thing we need to address and that

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Bitcoin happens to be this amazing solution for that.

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I mean, you're such a breath of fresh air compared to some of the other commentators that

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you'll see these programs bring on because you are bringing so much, as much as you're talking

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about the things that are broken, you're still presenting a solution and one that says, look,

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all is not lost, there is hope, there is this thing that is real, that is tangible, that is

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happening now, that you're not too late, you're still very early and I think that that's a beautiful

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thing to give people that lifeline should they choose to accept it. Speaking of lifelines,

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I wish I would have found it sooner. It's easy as hell to use Bitcoin only, of course, and fully

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open source, so you can see everything from the firmware on the device to the Bitbox app,

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even x-rays of the hardware and other schematics, just go to their GitHub and see for yourself.

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What you said just got me thinking because we like to think of in terms of, let's say,

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new media, we look at how big TikTok has gotten short form content on social media has really

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just become the norm. You can look at completion rates on longer videos on Twitter versus a 32

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to 1 minute clip and it's like 20, 30, 40% completion rate versus half a percent completion rate.

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People love the short form and we like to think of this as this new phenomenon of, wow,

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people's attention spans are so short. Going back to what you said about just regular, good old

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fashion legacy news media, it was all built around short hits. Really, the short attention span,

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instant gratification news hit is not a product of TikTok. I think it's just a product of human

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nature, but it's interesting to see that shift maybe be blamed on the media vehicle versus just

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people's desire for media in general. I don't know. Well, it's funny, Walker. We would have

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something called sweeps in television news. It happened four times a year. It was when they got

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ratings so that you would know which station was the top versus second, third in your market.

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That was the only time that you got to do special longer reports because they would be promoted and

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it was always for sweeps. That was the only time where I would get to do maybe a four or five minute

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story as opposed to 90 seconds. It was like, oh my God, I felt like an eternity. I have five minutes

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to tell a story when normally it's like chop it down, chop it down, chop it down and you're right.

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I think there is a short attention span. I can relate to it in some sense. I think that that's

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partially also due to the fact that everything is about quick now, now, now, including spending

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your money now, now, now because it's going to disappear in value in the future. We need to

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slow down. We need low time preference money so we can be a little more low time preference,

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but I still really love long form content because I think you can learn the most from it.

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Yeah, it gives you something to actually dig into. Another thing I wanted to circle back on

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that you talked about was just the decentralization of media. I'm curious, you've been now on Noster

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for a while. You were fairly early on there and you've been still very active on it the entire time.

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I'm curious from your perspective, having seen the changes in the legacy media landscape,

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having seen the changes in the social media landscape as well, how do you see Noster fitting

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into this, let's say, next evolution of decentralized media of user generated content,

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and of also censorship resistant content because I think this is a time where we can see very clearly

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if you're not saying the approved party line, it's very easy to get shut down even if you're one of

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the biggest fish out there. So how do you see that evolution happening? Is there anything

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you're particularly excited about for that? And do you see more journalists and news orgs starting

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to turn towards that as a supplement to what they're doing now? Sure, I find this to be such a

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fascinating topic because we do need platforms that aren't going to censor speech. And Noster is

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certainly one that I'm very excited about. I've also learned the power of network effect and how

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that has even impacted my choices because I love Noster and other platforms that they don't look at

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who you are and they allow you to fully own your content and they're not just trying to make money

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based on selling you ads or taking your personal data. That is exactly what we need. And yet we

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see the power of these massive behemoth entities like the Twitters and the Facebooks who have such

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a leg up because they've been in the space and have all the users already. So if you want to reach

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the most people, I guess I shouldn't have been shocked by what happened to threads because

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they tried to basically recreate Twitter, the Facebook version of it and man, it probably

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lasted a couple of weeks. I don't even check that app anymore. I tried to post everything from Twitter

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onto it for a couple of weeks and then it was a total flop. I mean, network effect is so powerful,

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which I think people under appreciate when it comes to Bitcoin and how difficult it is to try

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to recreate something like that. But I hope that as more people learn about the importance of privacy

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and sovereignty and property rights and how much data you've really given up to these companies,

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that they will look for solutions like Noster. And I heard there was just a conference in Asia.

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I'm sad I missed it. I know you went to the one in Puerto Rico, right? Or Costa Rica. I need to get

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out there because the people who are on these platforms are the very freedom fighters that

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Bitcoin is all about. It's really was such a Carl and I were bummed not to be able to go to

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Nostalgia with the little bun growing, bun in the oven. But the time in Costa Rica was fantastic.

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It's one of those things where I wasn't around for the early days of Bitcoin conferences. I

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didn't start even following closely Bitcoin Twitter until like 2020 and was just lurking on

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there for a while. And so only started going to first conferences in 2021. I'm very new here still.

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I wasn't around for the good old days. And now with Noster, it's this feeling of you're at this

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conference or unconference as they called it. And the organizers did such a great job. Alex

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McShane has been working really hard and a number of others to put these things on. But

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they have what I imagine some of those early Bitcoin conferences, that feeling where people

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are just there. It's a lot of devs, which is amazing. And you'll just see them on their computers.

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Like there were multiple times where somebody was giving a talk later in the afternoon and decided

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to just code something up in the morning to then present as part of their talk, like just actually

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building things in real time and building the tools that they want and taking user feedback

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in a real time manner where you're not saying, okay, let me go in a very waterfall way here and

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six months down the line, we'll run a new release out the door and we'll see if people like it.

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We didn't actually ask them what they want, but it's people building in real time and out in the

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open. And I think that's really powerful. I think that also the idea, so much of our financial system

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and I think our media government interactions are so shrouded in mystery that people feel like

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they don't even know where to look to get the truth. And there's so much distrust of media

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these days. And I think with AI as well, now just exploding into every aspect of our lives,

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that creates even more distrust ultimately, because now you, you didn't know whether to

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believe the news organization to begin with. Now you don't even know if the thing that you're

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watching is actually what you think that you're watching. So I'm curious how you see the,

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you know, talking about technological shifts when you were getting into the business.

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How do you see this AI driven shift affecting journalism, affecting news media in general?

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What do you think are, is there something that people like aren't realizing as far as

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what it's going to do to news or where do you, where do you see that? Sure. Well,

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I think it'll definitely be a double edged sword. And I try to be a very positive thinker because

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I don't want to sit there and surround myself with the negative thoughts of how, how bad things

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could get with technology or, or politics. I try to think of what good things can come of it,

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but certainly there are, are both exciting features as well as risks. On the one hand,

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something like chat, GPT, oh my gosh, I wish I had, I had access to something like that when I was

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doing my reports, because you can do research very, very quickly and you have access to all of this

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information to help you put together stories. On the other hand, you also don't want to get lazy,

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right? You don't want basically a computer to write your questions for you. I think that it's

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really important to develop critical thinking skills and sometimes with AI, it makes me worry

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that, that people don't. But ultimately for the industry, I do think that jobs will be going away

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because if you could create essentially a very lifelike person through artificial intelligence,

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visually as well as with different voice and you can customize it to how you want to receive

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the, the news and information, then you don't necessarily need a real life person or anchor

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anymore. I think that there's always going to be a need though for real reporters who are digging

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in and asking the right questions and building sources and getting the information and going

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through the records. I mean, half my job when I was an investigative reporter was getting really

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good at sifting through records and knowing where to look for information because you can imagine

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these bureaucracies and agencies, especially at a local level, it can be so it's like finding a

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needle in a haystack sometimes unless you get really, really good at finding the paper trail.

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And it was back then a paper trail, literally. I mean, sometimes I would be getting, I would have

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binders for different investigations and now everything's going digital. So I think that's,

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it's, it's going to be transformative. I think you brought up a really good point with regards to

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misinformation. I did some reporting before I left my news job on deep fakes and they were very

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scary because even then when the technology was more elementary, it looked very real and they had

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world leaders like examples of videos of world leaders saying different things and it could

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imitate the voices. I mean, it felt like you were watching the real thing and the real person. And so

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I'm very curious how, how cryptography will play into this because I loved my one conversation I

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had recently with Michael Saylor. Some of it, I still don't fully understand and I need to,

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I need to get a grasp on it technically, but just this idea of Bitcoin being that truth network.

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And so you could cryptographically verify that it was really you authenticating the,

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the message or the video that you're sending. And so that could be very, very powerful. And I know

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AI will need micro payments and a digitally native currency. So I'm excited to see what happens.

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I'm not the, I'm not the expert in this, but I think that there will be both good and bad.

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I think it's also something that at least in my opinion will have a, perhaps a much more negative

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impact on existing institutions. It's because, okay, like you said, you can, okay, if you're,

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if you're Fox, you can create a, you know, news anchor that is tailored to each individual viewer

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that is giving them exactly what they want to read those pretty generic sound bites that they may

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have, that's, that's pretty easy. They can do that right now where I think this is where actually

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independent creators have so much more power and will have more power because, you know,

381
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people are, for instance, listening to or watching coin stories, not because of just the people you're

382
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,960
having on there listening because of you, because they have trust in you as somebody who they know

383
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:38,320
is going to tell, you know, help tell a good story to do it truthfully, to do it with integrity.

384
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:43,920
That gives independent creators so much more power as it slips away from the mainstream. And so I

385
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,800
think it also, as you said, you know, like with chat GBT or any of these other tools, even translate

386
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:55,680
AI translation tools, it gives independent creators so much more ability to reach a larger audience,

387
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,920
which is a beautiful thing. And again, you know, that, that one man or one woman band

388
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:07,440
becomes a lot more powerful and can be its own, you know, mini, mini organization of one. And

389
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,920
I think that that's a, that's where I'm really hopeful. It's, it's giving so many more tools.

390
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:17,360
The cost of these tools is going to continually decrease as, you know, right now, some of them

391
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,200
are fairly expensive. But like Jeff Booth would say, it's all going to trend towards the marginal

392
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,120
cost of production. It's going to get cheaper. It's going to get more accessible. And I think

393
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:30,560
that that's a really democratizing tool and something that I'm at least very excited about.

394
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,040
I want to, I want to shift gears a little bit because again, there's multiple things you mentioned

395
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:40,160
earlier that are still spinning in my head, but you know, you were talking about the political

396
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:47,600
landscape and just kind of things that people focus on in the media. It's always, our media has

397
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:54,000
become so partisan where, you know, you know that Fox is going to give a pretty, give the

398
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,960
Democrats a hard time and, and be easier on the Republicans. And you know, the opposite is true

399
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:06,240
of CNN, MSNBC, et cetera. We've become so hyper focused on blaming, you know, finding the scapegoat

400
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:12,960
on the other side as long as it's not us, that we've kind of lost the plot of truth itself.

401
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:20,960
And speaking of politicians also, you talked to RFK Jr. on a Twitter space a couple months ago

402
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:26,960
now, and I saw that you just posted you interviewed Vivek as well. So you've got people on both sides

403
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:34,960
of the aisle. I'm curious how you see this next election cycle, given that we have now multiple

404
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:41,920
presidential candidates who are not just making offhand comments about Bitcoin, but really seeming

405
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,960
to have done a lot of work to understand it at a deeper level. Now they're trying to get your

406
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:51,520
votes granted, they're trying to get your donation dollars short. But is this something that gives

407
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,760
you some, are you excited about this? Do you think this is going to be kind of a this time is

408
00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:01,040
different election cycle in terms of the wire where the Overton window is?

409
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:06,960
Well, I certainly think the next year is going to be an interesting one. And I find it very

410
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:12,960
inspiring and exciting that multiple candidates are calling out Bitcoin by name and saying they

411
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:20,000
will support the ability to accumulate it and self custody it and transfer it. So that is really,

412
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:25,840
that's really hopeful for me. The truth is, I try to stay away from politics as much as I can,

413
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:31,440
because we've gotten so divisive. I remember a time before I entered into my news career when I

414
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,800
just didn't know how someone voted one way or another. It wasn't like that person's identity

415
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:42,960
was wrapped up in whether it was left or right, red or blue. And what makes me sad is that we're

416
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:48,080
at a point where some people can't even have a conversation anymore. It has destroyed relationships

417
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:53,680
and made for awkward family dinners and all of that. And I just can't believe that in America

418
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:59,120
in a place where there's supposed to be healthy debate and we do have the freedom to express our

419
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:04,080
views, which a lot of people around the world don't, that it would come to something like that

420
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,480
and that you would be totally defined by the person you vote for. And I agree with some of my

421
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,480
guests who have said that we should not have a political savior. There isn't one person that's

422
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:18,080
just going to come in like a knight in shining armor and save the day because our problems are so

423
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:24,400
deeply rooted and they're rooted ultimately in how our money is broken. So I get inspired when

424
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:31,120
the candidates talk about wanting to protect our property rights and the vision of Bitcoin and

425
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:36,400
the freedom of that technology. But at the same time, I just think that the system is so broken

426
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:43,920
and the incentives turn even people who have great intentions into just cogs in a big wheel

427
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:50,320
that just keeps rolling over people ultimately. So I want to be hopeful, but I just think that

428
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,400
there does need to be a change. There needs to be this. That's why I'm so glad that Bitcoin is this

429
00:39:54,400 --> 00:40:00,400
parallel system that you can opt into very peacefully. And it's like a peaceful revolution

430
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:07,840
and a peaceful protest because if you were to describe sort of a seismic shift where we're

431
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:13,760
describing a collapse, that's very scary for everyone involved, including people that are well

432
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:20,800
off. That puts them in a very unstable, unsafe position. So I mean, I don't know if you think

433
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,600
about this, Walker, but I do, I think about this a lot. The fact that if there was no Bitcoin,

434
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:30,560
I would not have the hope in the future that I do right now. I would think, oh my gosh,

435
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,480
things are going to continue to get worse. What could possibly solve this? We're going to go to

436
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:40,640
war. We're going to be increasingly more divisive and just fighting with each other. And that's the

437
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:45,760
perfect distraction from whatever the powers that we really want to do. And then Bitcoin actually

438
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:51,200
gives me so much hope that it does come back to the individual and we, the people do have power

439
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:59,120
and technology in the past, including the internet and cryptography, has been able to protect some

440
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:05,200
of our rights in the past. And I think it will in the future as well. So I tend to look at it in a

441
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:12,320
hopeful way, but the next election should be a fascinating one because I don't know, I personally

442
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:17,360
don't think that President Biden will be the candidate. So I'm sitting here curious if it's

443
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:22,880
going to be Governor Newsom that they bring in. Obviously, I've covered him as a reporter when

444
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:27,760
I was living in California for many years. I'm wondering who's going to, is it going to be

445
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,440
Trump on the ticket or is it going to be one of the people that we're watching in the debates?

446
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:38,640
I don't know. I'm certainly very interested and curious and want to know their stance on Bitcoin.

447
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:45,440
Oh, I couldn't agree more. And I think Newsom is a seeming unlikely candidate. He clearly is

448
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:50,400
becoming as friendly as possible with China. I saw he was cleaning up the streets of San Francisco,

449
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,840
which is fantastic. It turns out you can do that overnight if you just actually want to do that,

450
00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:02,000
which I don't know if they anticipated how transparent of a move that would be. That was

451
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,280
very interesting to see, but I could not agree more with you when it comes to Bitcoin being this

452
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:13,760
agent for hope because I'm in the same boat. I would be incredibly, probably,

453
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:19,680
probably apathetic and nihilistic right now if Bitcoin did not exist given the state of the world.

454
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:26,480
There's a lot like, and it's also the state of the media that is bombarding you with all sorts of

455
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,720
negative messages because that's the stuff that gets clicks, right? That's the stuff that gets views.

456
00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:36,560
It's the doom and the gloom and the violence and the anger. That's what sells and that's what sells,

457
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:42,400
you know, for makes your advertisers happy because more people see it. And I,

458
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:48,160
I'm so grateful that I have this not only thing that gives me hope, which is Bitcoin,

459
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:52,880
and all the people like yourself that I have had the pleasure of meeting through it,

460
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,880
but it also gives you this, this new lens or this mirror to hold up to the world.

461
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:04,080
And to say it allows you to kind of cut through so much of that bullshit because you start to realize,

462
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:10,720
okay, if they were lying about the money, what else are they lying about? Like,

463
00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:16,880
that's the, that's like the, the original sin, the fundamental lie is the one that they tell us

464
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,920
about the money and how it works and how it should work. And so if they're lying about that, it's,

465
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:27,120
it's kind of like, it gets rid of the Gell-Man amnesia for you, you know, where you're reading a

466
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:32,320
newspaper article about if, if you still read a newspaper, but please don't, it's terrible for

467
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:36,880
the environment. But you know, you're reading a newspaper article and you read a topic about

468
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:41,040
something that you know a lot about and you realize that, wow, this, they got this completely wrong.

469
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:45,280
This is, this is full of crap. This is not accurate. But then you flip the page to something

470
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,360
you're not as knowledgeable on and you say, ah, this person, but this person here, they know what

471
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:54,080
they're talking about. I'm not an expert on this. So, but not that Bitcoin makes you an expert on

472
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:59,280
everything, though I'm sure, certainly sure that some people may think so. But it does make you,

473
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:04,960
I think, a little bit more critical, a little bit more quizzical, and it just makes you ask more

474
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:14,080
questions. Something Carla's Communist escapee father always says is, you know, dubito ergo

475
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:20,400
cogito cogito ergo sum. I doubt, therefore, I think, I think, therefore I am. And it's that doubt

476
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:26,080
that I think gives you so much power. And it's also something that's very lacking in our,

477
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:32,800
let's say, greater political discourse today. It's sad to see so many people so willing to

478
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:38,960
believe everything that comes out of the mouth of their guy. And the other one is the anti Christ.

479
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:44,720
And this goes both ways. It's just, it's sad, but I'm glad that we have Bitcoin as this,

480
00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:50,240
this lens, this mirror to hold up and say, okay, no, we're not, we're not buying into this. We know

481
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:57,360
you guys are full of shit. You know, it's so funny about that. I think it does, it must come from

482
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:03,520
sort of that, that communist upbringing that both my parents and Carla's parents had, but growing up,

483
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:09,520
I remember culturally how different I felt from my peers. Cause I always, I obviously always wanted

484
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:14,880
to fit in and I always felt so different cause my parents were, were Polish and spoke Polish and had

485
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:20,320
accents and, and I was trying to assimilate into a culture that was very, very different. And one

486
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:26,480
thing that I would always notice is how paranoid and skeptical my mom was. And she, they would say

487
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:33,120
say something on TV or something would be approved by whatever the, you know, government body was,

488
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:38,480
the USDA, we had certain nutritional guides and my mom would say the exact opposite. And she'd be

489
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,960
like, nope, you're not having anything that's fat free. Nope. Oh, this is a lie. This is a scam.

490
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:48,240
Don't, you can't take that medicine. And I just, at the time, I remember thinking, oh my gosh,

491
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:53,040
my mom is, I don't know how to open up her mind.

492
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:58,640
I'm called a spiracy theorist. Like she's not following science. I just don't understand. This

493
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:06,160
is so hard. Why? And, and now I grow up and I'm like, wow, my mom was so based. She knew, she knew

494
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:11,360
everything. And all these things later would come around and it was like, yeah, this, this diet,

495
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,800
you shouldn't have followed and this drug you shouldn't have taken and all of that. And I'm

496
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,280
like, mom, how did you know? And she's like, common sense. I think for myself, you know,

497
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:24,480
so, and, and I really appreciate that now. I didn't appreciate it when I was young, but

498
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:30,480
my mom never took anything at face value. She always wanted to dig in and wait a second and

499
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:37,600
evaluate. And she, she really just was, she was the real journalist. She inspired me to,

500
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:42,800
to question things and to not just believe whatever line I'm being told because a lot of

501
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:47,040
journalism, unfortunately, especially today is just PR. It's PR. You just have to figure out who,

502
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:54,400
who it's PR for. And so I'm very grateful for that because now I, as an adult, there are things that

503
00:46:54,400 --> 00:47:00,240
I know my, my friends sometimes like regret or things that they did and my, my mom kept me away

504
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:06,800
from all of that. And so I'm very grateful. It's funny. I have had this almost exact conversation

505
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,520
with Carla before where she's like, man, I thought my mom was crazy. And the older you get it, so

506
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:17,120
you realize, oh no, they, they were just very based. And, and, and they, they'd literally seen this

507
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:23,120
movie before. Like they had seen how this played out and, you know, made it their lives extremely

508
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:28,240
difficult, but then also gave them an advantage when it came to seeing through the, the bullshit when

509
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:35,120
they got to America. And that's a, it's a powerful thing. You know, one of your, I think it might

510
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:42,480
be maybe your most watched series on YouTube, your conversations with Whitney Webb, which are like,

511
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:48,000
they really blew up, clearly got far outside of the Bitcoin echo chamber. Like those were

512
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:56,000
conversations that did not have an echo chamber. And, and you all touched on just so many of these

513
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:02,640
things, like the, but the really dark side of some of that, let's say, seeing through the

514
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:09,520
bullshit, like that is getting down into the, the so many deeper levels than most people think in

515
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:16,720
terms of corruption, the security state, you guys talked about CBD sees as well, kind of that dystopian

516
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:23,280
totalitarian future they're trying to usher in under the guise of convenience and, and everything

517
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:31,040
else. I'm curious, you know, what you think about those conversations resonated with the

518
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:35,200
guy that got outside the echo chamber really, because obviously you're, you're still a, a

519
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:42,000
Bitcoin podcast, you're a Bitcoin show, but those interviews really, really blew up. And I think

520
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:48,160
they clearly struck a chord with people. And we need more of that within the Bitcoin creation

521
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,080
space, I think, because that's how you get that message out to other people. So I'd love to know

522
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:56,720
kind of what was your takeaway after seeing the amazing response to those after talking with

523
00:48:56,720 --> 00:49:02,560
Whitney, I think three times, right? Having her on the show. And they were incredible discussions.

524
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:07,840
And I'd love to just hear like how that has shaped kind of some of your thoughts going forward.

525
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:14,320
Yeah, I hope to have her on again soon. She is such a truth warrior and a real investigative

526
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:22,080
journalist who puts her, her, I think career name life potentially on the line, because she's calling

527
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:27,360
out the most powerful people and she really does her homework. I've always respected and admired

528
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:32,640
people who go the length that you need to go in order to really understand something and follow

529
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:37,040
the paper trail. So if you read her books, because I read One Nation Under Blackmail, which is,

530
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:44,240
it's, it's two books that make up, make up the, the, the full series. And it's so in the weeds,

531
00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:49,440
it's like an encyclopedia that connects every single person through their companies and shell,

532
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:55,520
shell LLCs and organizations. And it's really astonishing the picture that it paints. It's

533
00:49:55,520 --> 00:50:01,360
definitely not a rosy one. It's, it's one where there is darkness and there is corruption. And

534
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:07,920
there are powerful people who want to maintain their grip and over others and, and their power.

535
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:12,960
And, and, and the most important thing is just if you're aware of it, then you can take the steps

536
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:17,200
to really protect yourself as best you can. We can't do everything. It's so, it's hard to make

537
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:22,480
yourself just disappear online, right? As much as many of us Bitcoiners would probably like to do.

538
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:28,160
But you can take steps and you can be aware and you can question things around you more and you

539
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:32,240
can take steps to, to have your information be a little bit more private. And I think that's

540
00:50:32,240 --> 00:50:36,960
ultimately the big takeaway because you can get into the weeds on any of the people that she talks

541
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:43,840
about, whether it's the Epstein case or any of the bankers or CBDCs or the Weff, you can go down a

542
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:49,360
lot of different rabbit holes. But I think when you zoom out, it's just this idea that if we allow

543
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:59,520
ourselves to just be coerced into giving away our rights and our sovereignty and our power and our

544
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:06,720
finances, then a lot of very scary things can, can happen. And we can sleepwalk into totalitarianism

545
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:11,200
and we want to avoid that at all costs. And in order to avoid that, you need to become aware,

546
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,840
you need to educate yourself. And so I think that those conversations are very, very important.

547
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:23,440
It's sad to hear that so many people throughout our history within government and within powerful

548
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:28,800
organizations have been corrupted. But I think that again, when you have broken money, you have

549
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:34,560
a broken incentive system and then people are following their own self-interest. And so I hope

550
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:42,800
that Bitcoin can over the long run help regulate some of that and help make something like corruption

551
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,640
a little bit more difficult and make governments more accountable. I know that it's not going to be

552
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:51,840
an overnight fix. And even though we say Bitcoin fixes this, I'm obviously realistic in the sense

553
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:56,800
that it's not going to fix everything all at once overnight and the world is going to be Utopia,

554
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:02,640
because people are people. But I do think that money at the base layer, if it's not so easily

555
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:11,440
corrupted and manipulated, it will make it more difficult for some of these nefarious, fraudulent,

556
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:19,600
theft-driven activities to occur on such a huge level. I mean, I think that what's saddest is

557
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:24,400
they've just siphoned away so much wealth from the working class. And because it's been just,

558
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:29,680
you know, a little bit a year every single year. Just 2%. It's like we don't notice it. And yet,

559
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:35,120
all of a sudden, here we are a couple decades later and there are kids who don't want to start

560
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:40,480
families and don't have hope in the future because they literally have had their future stolen from

561
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:45,760
them. They were just totally robbed. And before they were even born, they were robbed. And I think

562
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:52,080
that's really sad because the future depends on young people having hope and starting businesses

563
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:57,280
and innovating and having families. And so I hope that fixing our money will help fix some of those

564
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:04,000
problems, but we've certainly got a lot of problems. It's very true. And it's a worrisome thing where

565
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:11,680
I think the pendulum can go one of two big swings, which is on the one side, this younger generation

566
00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:20,320
can see all of the corruption and the just grift that has been such an inherent part of our system

567
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:26,880
for a long time and can say, okay, this is the surface level. They can say, okay,

568
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:32,400
it's the it's the wealthy elites. And it's because they're not paying enough of their taxes. And you

569
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:37,360
know what, maybe maybe that Marx guy, that guy with that funny beard that I read his little pamphlet

570
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:42,000
about and it sounded kind of nice. Maybe he had some good ideas and communism actually is the answer

571
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:47,520
and will all just be artists after communism comes, which I always just find to be this

572
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:52,560
hilariously ignorant statement. Because as your parents and Carlos parents know all too well,

573
00:53:52,560 --> 00:54:00,240
wasn't a wasn't a huge art boom during communism. That wasn't exactly how it worked out in practice.

574
00:54:00,240 --> 00:54:05,360
But then the other side that pendulum can swing instead of these kids saying, okay, let's go this

575
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:11,920
more socialistic, communist, you know, totalitarian route is okay. And this is what I hope maybe they

576
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:18,640
go a little bit more towards the deeper route and say, things are broken, not just at this surface.

577
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:23,680
I'm not going to just look at the results. I want to look at what's the cause. And I hope that, you

578
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:31,760
know, we have an internet native generation, multiple of them now. They are in a better position

579
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:38,080
to grok Bitcoin, at least as magic internet money, than anyone who's older than them,

580
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:42,240
their position for it. They just need to see the right message, hopefully not get sucked into the

581
00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:48,400
the, the grift of shit coinery, which is very alluring, because they think, again, low, you

582
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:52,400
know, or high time preference, they're thinking, I need to, I need to get rich quick. I'm in such

583
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:56,080
a hole. I've got these student loans, I've got everything else, I need to make a quick buck

584
00:54:56,080 --> 00:55:03,200
and turn around. I, I do have hope, though, that enough of the kids are all right, and are starting

585
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:11,040
to look deeper, that we do have some, we have some opportunity, and the potential for a lot of

586
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:19,440
prosperity ahead of us, if people pay attention. But that's hard in this day and age, sadly.

587
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:25,920
For sure. But I do, I do have hope. I mean, Bitcoin does give me hope in, in realigning some of this

588
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:31,680
and inspiring people and also just amending some of our value systems that have gone awry, because

589
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:38,240
with all of this too, I think we've, we've thrust away incentives from having families.

590
00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:43,520
And from, from certain things that I think just represent character and integrity. And right now,

591
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:51,680
I think one of the saddest things is seeing young people who just want to, you know, go on only fans

592
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:58,160
as opposed to getting a skill, because, because potentially being an only fans model makes you

593
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:03,840
more than being a neurosurgeon. And so like, what, what is that about? Right? So, so I think that we,

594
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:10,960
so I think that we really need to take a hard look at some of these things. And, and I'm inspired by

595
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:15,760
people who are in this space, who are working every single day to help get the information out so

596
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:21,120
that people feel empowered. Because I think that at the end of it, kind of what I said on, on the

597
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:26,560
show last time I was on Fox Business, people have lost a sense of hope that anything will get better.

598
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:31,680
And when you don't have hope, and the pressure keeps just pushing down on you, and you need every

599
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:37,840
single person in the family to provide and to try to help make ends meet, you start to feel like,

600
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:44,720
you know what, whatever, whatever, value system, it's, it all turns into short term thinking.

601
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:50,640
And that's where I think we run into the most problems and we see societal decay start to set

602
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:55,440
in when morality goes away, the respect of the rule of law, respect of one another, because

603
00:56:55,440 --> 00:57:00,400
ultimately you're no longer even respecting yourself. And you're not reaching your potential.

604
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:06,480
Like my favorite quote has always been, make the most of yourself for that is all there is of you.

605
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:14,080
And, and I feel like I was raised with this idea that you, you can make anything you want happen.

606
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:18,400
I mean, that's what the American dream stands for. But you have to work hard and you have to be a good

607
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:23,840
person, because we are all connected in this, in this world in our small communities, but

608
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:28,400
zooming out in all the communities that make up our world, we all can make a difference.

609
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:35,440
And anyone can come up with the next idea that, that revolutionizes an industry or, or changes the

610
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:42,000
world. I mean, anyone is capable of amazing things, but we all have to kind of get along.

611
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:47,120
We all have to believe in ourselves and we all have to have good money that we can trust.

612
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:54,640
Amen. You know, I think what you said about hard work and perhaps some of the

613
00:57:54,640 --> 00:58:01,440
hesitancy to pursue paths that are hard amongst, and I think that every older generation probably

614
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:06,400
says this about every younger generation and will for the rest of time, you know, the nobody wants to

615
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:12,560
work anymore is the common old trope, but, and it probably is true to an extent in every generation.

616
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:18,160
And also we see technological changes in every generation that make the type of work change as

617
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:27,040
well. But I hope that we do in general get back to a place where success is admired,

618
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:33,200
not because of the end result of the success, but because of the hard work that went into it.

619
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:41,280
Because I think it is very easy now in this heavily social media controlled atmosphere that we have,

620
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:46,320
you know, people are looking on, on Instagram and on TikTok at these, you know, or maybe

621
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:50,880
Facebook, or people still using it, I'm not sure. But they look at these, you know, perfectly

622
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:56,480
manicured and, and, you know, put together little lives that they believe that other people have.

623
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:01,440
And they're looking at the fancy watches and the fancy cars or whatever it may be.

624
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:08,640
And, you know, there's become this weird thing of, you can get rich quick and easy. And I'm going to

625
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:14,800
sell you how many courses I see that it's like, let me show you how to make $50,000 a week online

626
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:22,320
dropshipping or doing one, some other ridiculous thing. And people don't want to work for the

627
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:27,280
success anymore. They don't, they just want the end result. They don't want, you know, like, I

628
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:31,600
guess they didn't learn the whole saying it's not about the destination, it's about the journey.

629
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:39,360
But I think that in a, in a very beautiful way, Bitcoin, the fact that Bitcoin itself is proof

630
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:45,840
of work, I know it's caused me personally to think a lot more about what is my proof of work?

631
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:50,640
What is the effort that I'm putting in? What is the time, the energy? What is the value I'm creating?

632
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:57,120
Because I don't want to create things that are of little value that somehow make me a lot of money.

633
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:02,640
That just doesn't, I don't think that feels good. That's not satisfying. That's not fulfilling.

634
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:09,440
And at the end of the day, we, you see with all the instances of mental illness of depression,

635
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:18,640
people clearly are at a loss for meaning in their lives. And I don't know, I think we'll see in this

636
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:24,480
AI transition, we're going to see a lot more people going back to technical schools, to

637
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:32,480
technical schools, to apprenticeships, to real, you know, what you'd call blue collar work that is

638
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:36,960
now making you a lot of money. Because for so many years, we said, everybody needs to go to college.

639
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:41,360
Everybody needs to get a degree. Everybody's got a, you know, your underwater basket weaving degree

640
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:45,040
that cost you $200,000 and you're going to be in debt for for the rest of your life.

641
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:50,160
People are starting to realize that was a little bit of a scam. And a lot of degrees are very,

642
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:54,720
very useful. But I think that we're going to see a transition back to people saying,

643
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:58,080
you know what, I'm going to go learn how to be a plumber. And I'm going to do this two-year

644
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:02,240
apprenticeship without any debt. And I'm going to come out making a lot of money, you know, because

645
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:06,560
it's a, it's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it. And they're going to pay you very well to do

646
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:11,600
that job. So that I think we'll see that also on the, the only fans note, I have to imagine that

647
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:15,680
taking a Jeff Booth point of view here with, you know, everything trending towards the marginal

648
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:22,080
cost of production, AI is going to make that industry basically obsolete because the marginal,

649
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:27,680
the marginal cost of producing that sort of content, let's say, is going to trend to basically

650
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:33,920
zero. And so the marginal cost to consume it is going to be basically zero. And I don't think

651
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:38,080
it's going to be, I think, I think there is still room for neurosurgeons, at least for the time being,

652
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:43,760
I hope anyway. Yeah. And you know, it's funny, I know that we see him as sort of our antagonist

653
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:49,440
in the space, but I highly recommend that people read Peter Schiff's book, The Real Crash, because

654
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:56,720
he talks about why the cost of college is so high and how government incentives have created a lot

655
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:02,720
of moral hazards there that have ballooned the cost of education. So that yes, your gender studies

656
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:09,680
degree is like $250,000 and it's very hard to, to pay off. I really recommend people read that

657
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:13,920
because it's very, very good. I know that he comes to a different solution. I think he'll eventually

658
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:19,840
see Bitcoin, but it's very poignant. I'm going to have to check that out because, you know,

659
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:25,040
he's at least a good sport about it. Like he takes a lot of flak. I mean, to be fair, he says

660
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:30,480
things that are worthy of taking that flak. But I sometimes I just wonder, like, is it all just

661
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:36,160
an act? Like, is he just a very good actor? He's got his nice little stack of Bitcoin sitting on

662
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:40,320
the side and he's just trying to do that. What the rest of us are, which is keep the price low to

663
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:45,120
stack more. So he's throwing the foot out there. He's actually, maybe he's helping us more than we

664
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:53,200
realize. I think that he knows that the second he decides to say, all right, guys, you were right,

665
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:58,960
I'm a Bitcoiner now, that we will open our arms and welcome him into Bitcoin.

666
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:04,160
I think, I mean, gosh, I'd love to see him talk at a Bitcoin conference. Now that like,

667
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:09,840
that would be fantastic. I would absolutely love to see that. We love the turnarounds. There's been

668
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:16,400
so many, you know, exactly. Lots of great ones. It's a, I was going to say rags to riches, but

669
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:22,960
it's a, I don't know, a gold to bits story. Yeah. It's never too late. We're all later than someone

670
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:29,040
to Bitcoin, but we're all early. Well said. And Peter, if you're listening to this, you know,

671
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:34,080
maybe, maybe you can come to a Bitcoin conference sometime. You will be well received. I can guarantee

672
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:40,640
it. Well, well, Natalie, I want to be conscious of your time here because it is scarce like Bitcoin.

673
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:46,400
But I'm wondering, is there anywhere you want to point people in terms of something you're

674
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:51,120
working on right now? I know your Vivek interview is coming out on the 16th. I think that's, again,

675
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:55,200
going to reach outside the echo chamber. Can you give us any teasers about that? I don't want to,

676
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:58,400
I don't want to spoil anything. Is there any, was there any takeaway from it where you were like,

677
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:04,320
okay, wow, people need to see this? Yeah, sure. It was a fascinating conversation. And I really

678
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:09,520
tried to focus it more on his economic views and policies, including his stance on, on Bitcoin,

679
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:14,960
of course, less of the political stuff. We didn't talk about the GOP debate and all of that. So

680
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:20,480
really, I just wanted to hear how he plans to rebuild the American dream that's really important

681
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:26,080
to him. His parents are immigrants, just like mine. And so, yeah, we talked a lot about that

682
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:31,120
and Bitcoin. And I hope people check it out. I hope people subscribe to the podcast in the

683
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:35,360
coming months. I'm going to have more one-on-one educational content out there because I think

684
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:40,800
it's going to be needed as we hit the next, the next wave of adoption, which will probably come as we

685
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:46,880
witness the having and maybe these spot Bitcoin ETF approvals. I just, I feel like no matter what

686
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:52,000
happens in the bigger economy, the next year is going to be big and important for Bitcoin. So

687
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:56,240
we want to get people educated so that they understand it and go down the rabbit hole.

688
01:04:56,240 --> 01:05:01,840
I could not agree more. Do you have, do you have some upcoming mainstream legacy media

689
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:08,560
appearances as well? Because the boomers watching Fox and CNBC, they need Bitcoin as well, even if

690
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:12,320
they don't necessarily know it yet. But I have to imagine a lot of them orange-pilled through your

691
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:17,120
efforts. Do you have some more lined up or do they just, is it as needed basis with you?

692
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:21,680
Yeah, I never, I never know when it's going to happen. A lot of times it, it's generally because

693
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:26,720
there's some headline related to Bitcoin. So hopefully, hopefully that'll happen some more.

694
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:32,320
And yeah, maybe someday it'll be a more regular fixture hearing Bitcoin on these mainstream

695
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:38,400
channels. I hope so. And the last question I have for you, besides Peter Schiff's book,

696
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:43,440
is there anything else you'd recommend that you're reading right now or that you are planning to dive

697
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:48,560
into that you are excited about? Well, the most recent book I read was actually Capitalist

698
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:53,760
Punishment, which is by Vivek Ramiswamy. He talks about how Wall Street firms have sort of

699
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:58,640
seized the American economy and how that's led to more and more wealth concentration. And that

700
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:05,040
was a really interesting book. So I recommend that for, for those curious. I think the book I

701
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:08,720
really want to recommend is Broken Money. I know a lot of the Bitcoiners are talking about it. I

702
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:14,560
had a chance to interview Lynn and she just makes it so simple to understand the complete history

703
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:22,240
of how we got to this point. The good and bad of why we got to fiat and why it made sense and why

704
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:27,840
we need a solution now with Bitcoin, some of the risks involved. She's always so thoughtful and she's

705
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:34,720
very, very balanced. So I really hope everyone goes out and gets her book. Yeah, I can also

706
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:42,880
second that endorsement. She explains things in a really beautifully logical way. Like I'd like to

707
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:48,080
say she writes like an engineer who actually knows how to write well. Most engineers do not.

708
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:55,280
And it is a fantastic, it should be a primer now along with the Bitcoin standard, I think, for

709
01:06:55,280 --> 01:07:00,960
really having that fundamental understanding. Completely, completely. And I just, I think

710
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:06,240
that there's no one more, more brilliant and even keeled in the space. And we're so lucky to have her

711
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:13,760
brainpower. It's like, if you don't like Lynn Alden, the problem's you, not Lynn. That's how I feel.

712
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:18,240
I agree. I mean, it's another one of those things. The more people I meet through Bitcoin,

713
01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:23,120
the more hope I have, whether those are technical people, whether those are people who are, you

714
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:31,200
know, reformed hedge fund guys like James Lavish, whether they're, you know, technologists like

715
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:37,840
Jeff Booth, brilliant macro thinkers and investors like Lynn. There are so many people that give

716
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:45,360
me so much hope. And it's hard to imagine, it's hard to imagine those types of people

717
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:51,520
being anywhere else right now. Again, it's like, I don't know where we would all be if Bitcoin

718
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:57,040
didn't exist, but I'm really glad that it does. And that we're here in this place and space and time.

719
01:07:57,040 --> 01:08:02,720
I'm glad that you exist also, Natalie, and that you joined me on this show. So I'll link to all

720
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:07,120
your stuff in the show notes. Can't wait to watch that interview with Vivek. Just want to say, and

721
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:13,440
a lot of people on Noster and X comments this as well, thank you for what you do, because you are a

722
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:20,400
great, great voice for Bitcoin that cuts through into the mainstream and does so, so elegantly.

723
01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:25,600
So thank you for that. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate Walker. And I am grateful to

724
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:32,000
be your friend. The feeling is very mutual. So thank you, everyone, for watching. Bitcoin is

725
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:36,640
scarce, but Bitcoin podcasts are abundant. So thank you for listening to another fucking Bitcoin

726
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:43,440
podcast. Listen to Natalie's as well. You probably already have, but listen to her upcoming interviews.

727
01:08:43,440 --> 01:08:46,000
And again, Natalie, thank you so much for sharing your time.

728
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:59,760
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast. If you are a Bitcoin only

729
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:05,440
company interested in sponsoring another fucking Bitcoin podcast, head to Bitcoin podcast.net or

730
01:09:05,440 --> 01:09:12,640
hit me up on social media on Noster. Head to primal.net slash Walker. And on Twitter, search for at

731
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:19,680
Walker America or at TIT coin podcast. You can also watch the video version of this show on X or on

732
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:25,760
YouTube by going to YouTube.com slash Walker America or rumble by searching for at Walker

733
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:33,120
America. Bitcoin is scarce. There will only ever be 21 million, but Bitcoin podcasts are abundant.

734
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:39,040
So thank you for spending your scarce time to listen to another fucking Bitcoin podcast.

735
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:43,040
Until next time, stay free.