If we allow ourselves to just be coerced into giving away our rights and our sovereignty
and our power and our finances, then a lot of very scary things can happen and we can sleepwalk
into totalitarianism and we want to avoid that at all costs. And in order to avoid that,
you need to become aware, you need to educate yourself.
Greetings and salutations my fellow plebs. My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast.
The Bitcoin block height is 816908 and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.
Today's episode is Bitcoin Talk where I talk with my guest about Bitcoin and many other things as
well. Today that guest is Natalie Brinnell, Emmy Award-winning journalist and host of the
Coin Stories podcast and Hard Money. Unless you live under a rock, you've probably seen clips of
Natalie on CNBC and Fox Business where she's become a go-to Bitcoin commentator who cuts through
the usual cable TV BS and delivers genuine Bitcoin signal to the legacy media audience.
I really enjoyed picking Natalie's brain in this conversation because she has such
unique experience in terms of being part of the old mainstream media, then leaving it behind and
building a career for herself in the new mainstream, covering Bitcoin and money in general. We talk
about the role of journalists as government watchdogs versus lapdogs, how media is changing,
no-ster and media decentralization, her upbringing and what orange pilder, why Bitcoin and Bitcoiners
give us hope and a whole lot more. You can find all Natalie's links and accounts in the show notes
or by going to Bitcoinpodcast.net slash words. You can watch the Bitcoin podcast on Rumble,
YouTube or X by searching for at Walker America or listen on fountain.fm or wherever you get your
podcast by searching for the Bitcoin podcast. If you listen on fountain, consider giving the show
a boost or creating a clip of something you found interesting. For those that have boosted this show
already or zapped me on no-ster, thank you. If you haven't checked out fountain yet, I highly
recommend it. You can send Bitcoin to your favorite podcasters and earn Bitcoin just for
listening to this show. Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk with Natalie Brunel.
Peter, when I interviewed him last week, he gave me the insight of the pre-roll, which I was
initially like, okay, I'll have my intro conversation and then I'll press record and I'll be good to
go. And he's like, no, you need to have the pre-roll. Now I've learned something new from Peter.
But so again, and this is just maybe I'll include some of this, maybe I won't, we'll see. I have a
number of questions for you, but I really just want to chat with you and try to get kind of the
human side again. I think that it's nice to interview the interviewers. You are so often on
one side of things and you have such an amazing story that I've had the privilege of getting to
know a little bit just from being friends with you. And I think that the more people that hear
that, it's just a wonderful thing and it speaks so much to why you're doing what you're doing in
the space today. And I think that that's really powerful. So if you're good with it, we can just,
yeah, well, thank you for what you do. We can just kind of dive in. Yeah, I'm only more comfortable
asking than receiving the questions, but yeah, we'll go with it. I can imagine, but I've seen
you do pretty well across multiple arenas. So I think you'll be just fine, certainly on this
little podcast. But with that then, so I'll just give a quick intro because I'm still figuring this
out. I'm not a seasoned professional as you are. So excuse my novice status, but I'll do my best.
So with that little pre-roll, preamble, greetings and salutations, my fellow clubs. My name is
Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast. Today's episode is Bitcoin Talk and I am joined by someone
who talks about Bitcoin a lot. That is Natalie Brunel. She is the host of Coin Stories, which I
just saw when I was doing my background digging, the number one woman hosted Bitcoin podcast,
which makes complete sense given how massive it is. So congrats on that. Maybe soon the number
one Bitcoin podcast period who can say. Don't tell Peter. No, I don't have a lot of competition yet,
unfortunately with women hosted, but very grateful for that title nonetheless. Absolutely. And you
have a pretty amazing background too because you spent about 10 years doing local and national
investigative journalism. You won an Emmy for some of your work. I think I've seen it sitting,
shining on that shelf behind you at one time or another. And that's pretty incredible. And you
also, you've got your masters of science and journalism from Northwestern, correct? Yes.
So you are, and I like to think of you Natalie as one of the last real American journalists.
In this era where we have seen the title of journalist used to be something that meant
something and I feel that it has lost so much of its meaning as we've seen so much influence come
into it. So I think that, you know, I'd like to dive into that a little bit, but first I'd like to
start at the beginning. I just want to know in your own words, who is Natalie Brunel? How did she
get here today? What was that journey like? Sure. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having
me on the show. I'm really excited that you're doing this. There are not enough Bitcoin podcasts,
so I applaud you for starting the newest. Yeah, I mean, for those that don't know my story, I have
always wanted to be a journalist. I'm a first generation immigrant. My family came to the U.S.
from Poland. Parents grew up under communism, much like your beautiful wife, Carla's. And so
they always raised me with a strong work ethic, skepticism towards central authority.
And the reason I always was attracted to news and storytelling is because we watched a lot of news
and television and movies growing up because it helped my parents learn English. So I was always
attracted to that industry. I think I started to look at the world through a four angled lens,
and I just really wanted to be a part of it. At the time, I think that journalism and being an
anchor was such a noble profession. And I saw women who got to travel the world and interview
influential people and policymakers. And I thought, what an incredible job you get to always learn
and you have meaning in your community. And so I pursued it. And I've pretty much been doing
the same thing that I've learned in college for the last decade plus. I mean, in school, I was
writing stories, interviewing people, putting together videos, learning how to edit because
by the time I got to college, a lot of people were becoming one man bands, so to speak, making less
and less of course than people that were not doing the one man ban job a decade before. And yeah,
I just, I've always loved storytelling and getting to know people. So that's sort of the
background. And obviously when I learned about Bitcoin, I was fascinated by the people in it,
the people that were spreading the message and spreading the education and helping teach me.
I wanted to know how did they find Bitcoin? How why were they displaying such conviction?
And how did they build their careers? Because I've always been inspired by origin stories and
biographies. So yeah, that's sort of my background. And of course, you wrapped it up so succinctly
succinctly with the bow. Your professionalism always shows through. And I think what you do
with coin stories is so amazing because there are, you know, obviously, this is another fucking
Bitcoin podcast. There are a lot of Bitcoin podcasts. There are a lot of podcasts in general.
But I think at least within Bitcoin, what people really crave, because there's a lot of people
doing macro, there's a lot of people doing technical stuff. But people want to hear those
stories. They want the human side of it. And that's what you deliver so well in coin stories.
You know, even when I posted about this on on Noister and Twitter that you were coming on here,
a lot of people, I think just they were very excited. Some of them had some questions, others
were just like, Yeah, I can't wait to watch because again, you're somebody who is telling
other people's stories so much. You're telling all these origin stories of Bitcoin. How did you
get orange pilled? But I think a lot of people also wanted to know what was your did you have a
moment of orange pilling yourself? What what was that like? When did things start to, you know,
to click? Yeah, I love these stories because I think that they really tell you a lot about who
a person is, where they come from and what motivates them. And so for me, I think I had a pain point.
My parents, in addition to the fact that they were first generation immigrants and knew what it was
like to have a very top down control government and scarcity because of production being botched by
central authority. But then they worked really, really hard here as immigrants. My, my tell stories
that my dad used to wake up at three o'clock in the morning and have to scrape all the ice off of
his car because we didn't have a garage. I literally thought people who had a garage were wealthy.
That's that was my my my standard. And and I just I saw them finally be able to achieve a small
middle class American dream by being able to buy a small townhouse when I was in high school.
I lived in it for about four years and then I went off to college and then the great financial
crisis hit and they lost they lost everything. They went under, they had a downsize to a tiny
one bedroom apartment. I saw their dreams just totally shattered. It really took a toll on their
marriage. And I just I wondered how could this happen to two hardworking people who played by
all the rules and played by, you know, paid all their taxes. They were good people who just wanted
a better life for their children and they totally got the rug pulled out from under them. And so
many millions of other Americans were in the same boat. Meanwhile, the executives were getting
bonuses and the Wall Street banks were getting bailed out. And so I felt a true injustice.
And I entered my career in journalism with that sort of plant seed planted. And I think I had a
fire that I wanted to hold the powerful account accountable. That's why I went into investigative
journalism because I thought, you know what, I'm going to go after these guys. This is so not not
fair. This is not what the American dream stands for. And certainly not what my parents sacrificed
so much to come here to experience. And then I realized that I was wrong about so many of the
assumptions I had made about our economy. Before I learned about Bitcoin and economics and capitalism,
I was one of those people who thought, Oh, tax the rich, you know, it's the rich who got us and
and we need to go after them. They need to share the wealth, not realizing how completely backwards
I was and how wealth needs to emerge and money needs to emerge from a productive economy that
can't be manipulated and that is based on on something fair that can't be inflated and just
printed by the government. So I had to really go through that process. And that didn't happen until
2017 is when I first heard about Bitcoin. Of course, I was skeptical, dismissive, thought no
way. This will definitely be hacked and I'll probably lose all my money. But hey, I need money. So
I'm just going to gamble with some of mine and buy some Bitcoin. And then the life changing moment
for me truly life changing was reading the Bitcoin standard because a mentor of mine gave that to
me a couple years after I started to invest in Bitcoin. And I literally had this aha moment
where I just I sat back, my jaw was to the floor and I thought, this is why my family experienced
everything they did, why I'm reporting on all these people suffering from cost of living going up and
not being able to make ends meet and not knowing what to do. I mean, this is literally
what happened. Our money is broken. And here we have a potential solution. And then I just
wanted to gobble up all this information about it and go down the rabbit hole. So
it was transformative for me learning about Bitcoin because it connected a lot of dots
and allowed the seeds of what had been planted when I was very young to finally come to fruition.
I think that that book for so many people, I'm so grateful that safety wrote it because it was
I it was eye opening for me as well. And I think, you know, so many people have that same story
where even if you were studying Bitcoin a little bit before that, it wasn't until reading that
book where you just he puts things in a really beautiful way where it's hard to refute and you
realize, oh, wait a minute, people are angry at the wrong people, they're angry at the wrong
institutions. They're the things that they think are the problems that they think are the causes
are actually just the symptoms. The symptoms of the underlying problem, which is the money is
broken and when money breaks, so breaks everything else. And I think that that, at least for me,
when I am either watching, you know, the I don't have cable TV, but when I do watch clips of it,
you know, on YouTube or whatever, usually they're yours, maybe sailors money on on some mainstream
outlet. Yeah, sailors way better. You know, you're giving him a run for his money, though. But
one of the frustrating things I think for me and for a lot of Bitcoiners, and I can imagine for
you as somebody who actually knows how to be a real journalist, is that when you see reporting on
these types of stories, you see reporting about inequality, or about cost of living, the cost
of living one is, you know, a really obvious one, because they talk about prices rising and they
talk about inflation, which they're really referring to just prices rising. As if it just
comes out of nowhere, it's this it's this boogeyman that appears because of Vladimir Putin or because
of COVID. And of course, there are supply side things that have a huge impact. Yes. But they
never talk about the only thing that is really at the base, which is that they are just printing so
much money, they're creating money out of nothing. And so I'm curious from from your time in, let's
call it, let's call it legacy media, because I think like, I mean, you look at your, your podcast,
your YouTube channel, I think some of your YouTube videos get more views than a prime time TV slot,
these days. Because I mean, the main the mainstream is no longer the mainstream, it's the legacy,
I think independent creators have become that mainstream. But how do you see the media landscape
changing? Do you think that and how do you see Bitcoin impacting that? Like, is there some greater
truth that gets brought to legacy journalism? Because they at a certain point, they just they
can't lie anymore? Gosh, yeah, there's so much to unpack there. And I did I really saw my industry
changing. And first, I didn't see it from the economic side. I just saw it on the technology
side, right? Because I mentioned earlier that when I was watching the legacy anchors that I looked
up to, they didn't also shoot their own video, edit it, go live by themselves. And yet when I
entered into the profession, you were basically expected to do the job of five people, yet you
were paid less than what one person, what one of those roles was paid just a couple decades
before. Actually, one of my one of my close friends who I believe you've met, she her father was an
anchor man. And so he saw this shift happen. And she studied broadcast journalism with me. And he
told her, don't go into it, like, don't go into it, it's dying, you should you should do something
else. So she ended up in in law school. I didn't have someone like that to give me advice. And I
had no idea where the ball was sort of rolling. I mean, when I was little, the internet was starting
to come out. But no one knew how much it would transform all of our lives and business. And
for news, it totally changed the business model. And now all of a sudden, these television stations
that used to get so much advertising revenue, they now had to compete with online newspapers,
but also independent creators who were coming out. I mean, I've interviewed people like Michelle
Fan, who I'm like, I wish I had the courage when I was younger and YouTube was just starting out to
just to just go and start creating. But I think from my immigrant background, I would, I always
just wanted to play by the rules and do things very traditionally. And so I bought into the whole
thing that, you know, I got to get the degree and get the, you know, a small town reporter job and
work my way to the middle sized town to the top town. And I did things a very old school way,
which I don't necessarily recommend. I think we should blaze a trail and and and take chances
because they can really pay off. But certainly ever since learning about Bitcoin, I also saw the
economics and the economic incentives and how that have also transformed media, because now it feels
sometimes, and I don't, I don't mean this for all journalists and I'll, I'll share why. I'm having
worked in the space for so long, but overall, when you zoom out, the media in general seems to be
much more biased, much more political, and almost as if they're in some cases lap dogs for the
government as opposed to watchdogs. Journalism is supposed to be that fourth branch that's
supposed to keep an eye and make sure that everything, you know, isn't going in the direction of
corruption. But all of a sudden you see them sharing a lot of the same messaging and narratives that
maybe the government wants put out there, certain sides of the government or certain agendas. So I
have been, I've been disillusioned, but if you zoom in to the micro level, I sympathize with a lot
of reporters, especially local television reporters, because again, I never got an education in financial
literacy. So I didn't have a starting point to understand, first of all, that I should question
inflation, right? I mean, most of us before Bitcoin, we're like, yeah, everything just gets more
expensive and it was easier for our parents generation to buy a house and for us, not so much.
But we don't question why and we don't, we don't peel back those layers and we absolutely should
because half the things that I was reporting on on a local level was the fact that people were
struggling more and more. Eventually it turned divisive and more political and left versus right.
But the starting point was after the great financial crisis, a lot of people struggling and
struggling to build back. Meanwhile, you know, QE started and I had no idea what that was at the time,
but bam, like recovery for the banks and the people at the top and then they made exponential
amounts of wealth. So I think it starts with education because I think a lot of reporters
were like me, they set out with very good intentions, like maybe a lot of people who go
into politics due to, but the incentive system kind of kind of alters that. Now there's a huge
incentive in media to get the big interview or to have the exclusive with maybe an elected official.
And a lot of times you see reporters getting very cozy with certain political entities. And
that's not right. We really should be watchdogs and people should kind of be afraid of the
investigative journalists is coming around, right? They shouldn't be super excited to see you because
you're just going to do a fluff piece. They should be a little bit worried that you're going to
scratch the surface on something. And yeah, so I know that's a long-winded answer, but the economic
model has changed. The technological model has changed. And I'm just grateful that decentralized
media in the form of podcasts and online platforms and social media has allowed me this opportunity
to talk about Bitcoin. Because when I tried to do stories on Bitcoin, I was very limited. I could
do one here or there, but instead I had to focus on a lot of these breaking news tragedies and
disasters, which was very negative. And now I get to focus on something that is ultimately so positive
and talks about how the world can become a better place if we fix the money.
Well, that was a beautiful answer. And there's multiple things I want to put a pin in and come
back to. But just to start with what you finished with, which is kind of being able to talk about
Bitcoin and in a legacy media setting now, I mean, you are on Fox Business, you are on CNBC,
you are kind of this go-to voice now when they need someone who's actually coherent and can
string together a full intelligent sentence or two about what Bitcoin actually is, what it represents.
One of your recent interviews with Charles Payne, I thought was just fantastic because you touched
on the younger generation and that kind of pain of realizing I'm not going to be able to afford
even my parents' modest lifestyle that they had, that realization that the cards are stacked against
me and I'm in a hold that there's no way to get out of. It's how have you found, I'd love to,
if we can maybe go back, how did you start becoming that go-to Bitcoin voice on CNBC,
on Fox Business? Because you've had quite, I mean, innumerable appearances now. Each one of them is
like this incredible little bit of Bitcoin wisdom. What was the first one of those shows that you
went on to talk about Bitcoin? Gosh, I don't know when it started. It must have been late 2021. I left
my job in October 2021, so it wasn't long after that. It's certainly when they don't need a legitimate
CEO to come and talk about P&L, right? Because I don't have that background, but I've been really
grateful for these opportunities because I do hope to represent a side of this community that
doesn't come from a super techie background, that doesn't come with the engineering degree and the
finance degree, but was able to learn all of this and who really genuinely believes in this technology,
was able to get a grasp on it, to teach it at a 101 level and who thinks that it can change our
future. That's what I represent. I think my background has helped in the sense that I used to have to
work eight or nine hours a day to put on 90 seconds of television. It's one of the reasons why I love
podcasts and wanted one because so much of my experience throughout the day reporting would
just get shrunk to a tiny little couple sound bites and 10 seconds on the air introducing my
story. I had to get very good at being concise and cutting stuff out and just doing quick hits,
but you miss a lot, right? You miss the experience of getting the full story, of doing the full
interview. The one thing that I try to remember is that you only have a short amount of time to
reach people and what you ultimately want to do is they'll probably forget everything you said,
but they may not forget how you made them feel. One book that always stuck with me when I was in
journalism school was a book called Aim for the Heart and it was about tapping into the emotion,
universal emotions through stories where no matter who you are, no matter what your background or job
is, no matter if you came from poverty or wealth, we all relate to a lot of the same experiences
and we all want to connect with people. We want to feel accepted and loved and appreciated and we
can all relate to struggle. I try to tap into those human experiences because I think that they're
the most memorable and relatable and I think that no matter who you are and where you come from,
you want to see a world where people have more opportunity rather than less and you want to see
a world where there's less wealth concentration and inequality and so many people just don't
realize that the money is broken and that that's the very thing we need to address and that
Bitcoin happens to be this amazing solution for that.
I mean, you're such a breath of fresh air compared to some of the other commentators that
you'll see these programs bring on because you are bringing so much, as much as you're talking
about the things that are broken, you're still presenting a solution and one that says, look,
all is not lost, there is hope, there is this thing that is real, that is tangible, that is
happening now, that you're not too late, you're still very early and I think that that's a beautiful
thing to give people that lifeline should they choose to accept it. Speaking of lifelines,
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What you said just got me thinking because we like to think of in terms of, let's say,
new media, we look at how big TikTok has gotten short form content on social media has really
just become the norm. You can look at completion rates on longer videos on Twitter versus a 32
to 1 minute clip and it's like 20, 30, 40% completion rate versus half a percent completion rate.
People love the short form and we like to think of this as this new phenomenon of, wow,
people's attention spans are so short. Going back to what you said about just regular, good old
fashion legacy news media, it was all built around short hits. Really, the short attention span,
instant gratification news hit is not a product of TikTok. I think it's just a product of human
nature, but it's interesting to see that shift maybe be blamed on the media vehicle versus just
people's desire for media in general. I don't know. Well, it's funny, Walker. We would have
something called sweeps in television news. It happened four times a year. It was when they got
ratings so that you would know which station was the top versus second, third in your market.
That was the only time that you got to do special longer reports because they would be promoted and
it was always for sweeps. That was the only time where I would get to do maybe a four or five minute
story as opposed to 90 seconds. It was like, oh my God, I felt like an eternity. I have five minutes
to tell a story when normally it's like chop it down, chop it down, chop it down and you're right.
I think there is a short attention span. I can relate to it in some sense. I think that that's
partially also due to the fact that everything is about quick now, now, now, including spending
your money now, now, now because it's going to disappear in value in the future. We need to
slow down. We need low time preference money so we can be a little more low time preference,
but I still really love long form content because I think you can learn the most from it.
Yeah, it gives you something to actually dig into. Another thing I wanted to circle back on
that you talked about was just the decentralization of media. I'm curious, you've been now on Noster
for a while. You were fairly early on there and you've been still very active on it the entire time.
I'm curious from your perspective, having seen the changes in the legacy media landscape,
having seen the changes in the social media landscape as well, how do you see Noster fitting
into this, let's say, next evolution of decentralized media of user generated content,
and of also censorship resistant content because I think this is a time where we can see very clearly
if you're not saying the approved party line, it's very easy to get shut down even if you're one of
the biggest fish out there. So how do you see that evolution happening? Is there anything
you're particularly excited about for that? And do you see more journalists and news orgs starting
to turn towards that as a supplement to what they're doing now? Sure, I find this to be such a
fascinating topic because we do need platforms that aren't going to censor speech. And Noster is
certainly one that I'm very excited about. I've also learned the power of network effect and how
that has even impacted my choices because I love Noster and other platforms that they don't look at
who you are and they allow you to fully own your content and they're not just trying to make money
based on selling you ads or taking your personal data. That is exactly what we need. And yet we
see the power of these massive behemoth entities like the Twitters and the Facebooks who have such
a leg up because they've been in the space and have all the users already. So if you want to reach
the most people, I guess I shouldn't have been shocked by what happened to threads because
they tried to basically recreate Twitter, the Facebook version of it and man, it probably
lasted a couple of weeks. I don't even check that app anymore. I tried to post everything from Twitter
onto it for a couple of weeks and then it was a total flop. I mean, network effect is so powerful,
which I think people under appreciate when it comes to Bitcoin and how difficult it is to try
to recreate something like that. But I hope that as more people learn about the importance of privacy
and sovereignty and property rights and how much data you've really given up to these companies,
that they will look for solutions like Noster. And I heard there was just a conference in Asia.
I'm sad I missed it. I know you went to the one in Puerto Rico, right? Or Costa Rica. I need to get
out there because the people who are on these platforms are the very freedom fighters that
Bitcoin is all about. It's really was such a Carl and I were bummed not to be able to go to
Nostalgia with the little bun growing, bun in the oven. But the time in Costa Rica was fantastic.
It's one of those things where I wasn't around for the early days of Bitcoin conferences. I
didn't start even following closely Bitcoin Twitter until like 2020 and was just lurking on
there for a while. And so only started going to first conferences in 2021. I'm very new here still.
I wasn't around for the good old days. And now with Noster, it's this feeling of you're at this
conference or unconference as they called it. And the organizers did such a great job. Alex
McShane has been working really hard and a number of others to put these things on. But
they have what I imagine some of those early Bitcoin conferences, that feeling where people
are just there. It's a lot of devs, which is amazing. And you'll just see them on their computers.
Like there were multiple times where somebody was giving a talk later in the afternoon and decided
to just code something up in the morning to then present as part of their talk, like just actually
building things in real time and building the tools that they want and taking user feedback
in a real time manner where you're not saying, okay, let me go in a very waterfall way here and
six months down the line, we'll run a new release out the door and we'll see if people like it.
We didn't actually ask them what they want, but it's people building in real time and out in the
open. And I think that's really powerful. I think that also the idea, so much of our financial system
and I think our media government interactions are so shrouded in mystery that people feel like
they don't even know where to look to get the truth. And there's so much distrust of media
these days. And I think with AI as well, now just exploding into every aspect of our lives,
that creates even more distrust ultimately, because now you, you didn't know whether to
believe the news organization to begin with. Now you don't even know if the thing that you're
watching is actually what you think that you're watching. So I'm curious how you see the,
you know, talking about technological shifts when you were getting into the business.
How do you see this AI driven shift affecting journalism, affecting news media in general?
What do you think are, is there something that people like aren't realizing as far as
what it's going to do to news or where do you, where do you see that? Sure. Well,
I think it'll definitely be a double edged sword. And I try to be a very positive thinker because
I don't want to sit there and surround myself with the negative thoughts of how, how bad things
could get with technology or, or politics. I try to think of what good things can come of it,
but certainly there are, are both exciting features as well as risks. On the one hand,
something like chat, GPT, oh my gosh, I wish I had, I had access to something like that when I was
doing my reports, because you can do research very, very quickly and you have access to all of this
information to help you put together stories. On the other hand, you also don't want to get lazy,
right? You don't want basically a computer to write your questions for you. I think that it's
really important to develop critical thinking skills and sometimes with AI, it makes me worry
that, that people don't. But ultimately for the industry, I do think that jobs will be going away
because if you could create essentially a very lifelike person through artificial intelligence,
visually as well as with different voice and you can customize it to how you want to receive
the, the news and information, then you don't necessarily need a real life person or anchor
anymore. I think that there's always going to be a need though for real reporters who are digging
in and asking the right questions and building sources and getting the information and going
through the records. I mean, half my job when I was an investigative reporter was getting really
good at sifting through records and knowing where to look for information because you can imagine
these bureaucracies and agencies, especially at a local level, it can be so it's like finding a
needle in a haystack sometimes unless you get really, really good at finding the paper trail.
And it was back then a paper trail, literally. I mean, sometimes I would be getting, I would have
binders for different investigations and now everything's going digital. So I think that's,
it's, it's going to be transformative. I think you brought up a really good point with regards to
misinformation. I did some reporting before I left my news job on deep fakes and they were very
scary because even then when the technology was more elementary, it looked very real and they had
world leaders like examples of videos of world leaders saying different things and it could
imitate the voices. I mean, it felt like you were watching the real thing and the real person. And so
I'm very curious how, how cryptography will play into this because I loved my one conversation I
had recently with Michael Saylor. Some of it, I still don't fully understand and I need to,
I need to get a grasp on it technically, but just this idea of Bitcoin being that truth network.
And so you could cryptographically verify that it was really you authenticating the,
the message or the video that you're sending. And so that could be very, very powerful. And I know
AI will need micro payments and a digitally native currency. So I'm excited to see what happens.
I'm not the, I'm not the expert in this, but I think that there will be both good and bad.
I think it's also something that at least in my opinion will have a, perhaps a much more negative
impact on existing institutions. It's because, okay, like you said, you can, okay, if you're,
if you're Fox, you can create a, you know, news anchor that is tailored to each individual viewer
that is giving them exactly what they want to read those pretty generic sound bites that they may
have, that's, that's pretty easy. They can do that right now where I think this is where actually
independent creators have so much more power and will have more power because, you know,
people are, for instance, listening to or watching coin stories, not because of just the people you're
having on there listening because of you, because they have trust in you as somebody who they know
is going to tell, you know, help tell a good story to do it truthfully, to do it with integrity.
That gives independent creators so much more power as it slips away from the mainstream. And so I
think it also, as you said, you know, like with chat GBT or any of these other tools, even translate
AI translation tools, it gives independent creators so much more ability to reach a larger audience,
which is a beautiful thing. And again, you know, that, that one man or one woman band
becomes a lot more powerful and can be its own, you know, mini, mini organization of one. And
I think that that's a, that's where I'm really hopeful. It's, it's giving so many more tools.
The cost of these tools is going to continually decrease as, you know, right now, some of them
are fairly expensive. But like Jeff Booth would say, it's all going to trend towards the marginal
cost of production. It's going to get cheaper. It's going to get more accessible. And I think
that that's a really democratizing tool and something that I'm at least very excited about.
I want to, I want to shift gears a little bit because again, there's multiple things you mentioned
earlier that are still spinning in my head, but you know, you were talking about the political
landscape and just kind of things that people focus on in the media. It's always, our media has
become so partisan where, you know, you know that Fox is going to give a pretty, give the
Democrats a hard time and, and be easier on the Republicans. And you know, the opposite is true
of CNN, MSNBC, et cetera. We've become so hyper focused on blaming, you know, finding the scapegoat
on the other side as long as it's not us, that we've kind of lost the plot of truth itself.
And speaking of politicians also, you talked to RFK Jr. on a Twitter space a couple months ago
now, and I saw that you just posted you interviewed Vivek as well. So you've got people on both sides
of the aisle. I'm curious how you see this next election cycle, given that we have now multiple
presidential candidates who are not just making offhand comments about Bitcoin, but really seeming
to have done a lot of work to understand it at a deeper level. Now they're trying to get your
votes granted, they're trying to get your donation dollars short. But is this something that gives
you some, are you excited about this? Do you think this is going to be kind of a this time is
different election cycle in terms of the wire where the Overton window is?
Well, I certainly think the next year is going to be an interesting one. And I find it very
inspiring and exciting that multiple candidates are calling out Bitcoin by name and saying they
will support the ability to accumulate it and self custody it and transfer it. So that is really,
that's really hopeful for me. The truth is, I try to stay away from politics as much as I can,
because we've gotten so divisive. I remember a time before I entered into my news career when I
just didn't know how someone voted one way or another. It wasn't like that person's identity
was wrapped up in whether it was left or right, red or blue. And what makes me sad is that we're
at a point where some people can't even have a conversation anymore. It has destroyed relationships
and made for awkward family dinners and all of that. And I just can't believe that in America
in a place where there's supposed to be healthy debate and we do have the freedom to express our
views, which a lot of people around the world don't, that it would come to something like that
and that you would be totally defined by the person you vote for. And I agree with some of my
guests who have said that we should not have a political savior. There isn't one person that's
just going to come in like a knight in shining armor and save the day because our problems are so
deeply rooted and they're rooted ultimately in how our money is broken. So I get inspired when
the candidates talk about wanting to protect our property rights and the vision of Bitcoin and
the freedom of that technology. But at the same time, I just think that the system is so broken
and the incentives turn even people who have great intentions into just cogs in a big wheel
that just keeps rolling over people ultimately. So I want to be hopeful, but I just think that
there does need to be a change. There needs to be this. That's why I'm so glad that Bitcoin is this
parallel system that you can opt into very peacefully. And it's like a peaceful revolution
and a peaceful protest because if you were to describe sort of a seismic shift where we're
describing a collapse, that's very scary for everyone involved, including people that are well
off. That puts them in a very unstable, unsafe position. So I mean, I don't know if you think
about this, Walker, but I do, I think about this a lot. The fact that if there was no Bitcoin,
I would not have the hope in the future that I do right now. I would think, oh my gosh,
things are going to continue to get worse. What could possibly solve this? We're going to go to
war. We're going to be increasingly more divisive and just fighting with each other. And that's the
perfect distraction from whatever the powers that we really want to do. And then Bitcoin actually
gives me so much hope that it does come back to the individual and we, the people do have power
and technology in the past, including the internet and cryptography, has been able to protect some
of our rights in the past. And I think it will in the future as well. So I tend to look at it in a
hopeful way, but the next election should be a fascinating one because I don't know, I personally
don't think that President Biden will be the candidate. So I'm sitting here curious if it's
going to be Governor Newsom that they bring in. Obviously, I've covered him as a reporter when
I was living in California for many years. I'm wondering who's going to, is it going to be
Trump on the ticket or is it going to be one of the people that we're watching in the debates?
I don't know. I'm certainly very interested and curious and want to know their stance on Bitcoin.
Oh, I couldn't agree more. And I think Newsom is a seeming unlikely candidate. He clearly is
becoming as friendly as possible with China. I saw he was cleaning up the streets of San Francisco,
which is fantastic. It turns out you can do that overnight if you just actually want to do that,
which I don't know if they anticipated how transparent of a move that would be. That was
very interesting to see, but I could not agree more with you when it comes to Bitcoin being this
agent for hope because I'm in the same boat. I would be incredibly, probably,
probably apathetic and nihilistic right now if Bitcoin did not exist given the state of the world.
There's a lot like, and it's also the state of the media that is bombarding you with all sorts of
negative messages because that's the stuff that gets clicks, right? That's the stuff that gets views.
It's the doom and the gloom and the violence and the anger. That's what sells and that's what sells,
you know, for makes your advertisers happy because more people see it. And I,
I'm so grateful that I have this not only thing that gives me hope, which is Bitcoin,
and all the people like yourself that I have had the pleasure of meeting through it,
but it also gives you this, this new lens or this mirror to hold up to the world.
And to say it allows you to kind of cut through so much of that bullshit because you start to realize,
okay, if they were lying about the money, what else are they lying about? Like,
that's the, that's like the, the original sin, the fundamental lie is the one that they tell us
about the money and how it works and how it should work. And so if they're lying about that, it's,
it's kind of like, it gets rid of the Gell-Man amnesia for you, you know, where you're reading a
newspaper article about if, if you still read a newspaper, but please don't, it's terrible for
the environment. But you know, you're reading a newspaper article and you read a topic about
something that you know a lot about and you realize that, wow, this, they got this completely wrong.
This is, this is full of crap. This is not accurate. But then you flip the page to something
you're not as knowledgeable on and you say, ah, this person, but this person here, they know what
they're talking about. I'm not an expert on this. So, but not that Bitcoin makes you an expert on
everything, though I'm sure, certainly sure that some people may think so. But it does make you,
I think, a little bit more critical, a little bit more quizzical, and it just makes you ask more
questions. Something Carla's Communist escapee father always says is, you know, dubito ergo
cogito cogito ergo sum. I doubt, therefore, I think, I think, therefore I am. And it's that doubt
that I think gives you so much power. And it's also something that's very lacking in our,
let's say, greater political discourse today. It's sad to see so many people so willing to
believe everything that comes out of the mouth of their guy. And the other one is the anti Christ.
And this goes both ways. It's just, it's sad, but I'm glad that we have Bitcoin as this,
this lens, this mirror to hold up and say, okay, no, we're not, we're not buying into this. We know
you guys are full of shit. You know, it's so funny about that. I think it does, it must come from
sort of that, that communist upbringing that both my parents and Carla's parents had, but growing up,
I remember culturally how different I felt from my peers. Cause I always, I obviously always wanted
to fit in and I always felt so different cause my parents were, were Polish and spoke Polish and had
accents and, and I was trying to assimilate into a culture that was very, very different. And one
thing that I would always notice is how paranoid and skeptical my mom was. And she, they would say
say something on TV or something would be approved by whatever the, you know, government body was,
the USDA, we had certain nutritional guides and my mom would say the exact opposite. And she'd be
like, nope, you're not having anything that's fat free. Nope. Oh, this is a lie. This is a scam.
Don't, you can't take that medicine. And I just, at the time, I remember thinking, oh my gosh,
my mom is, I don't know how to open up her mind.
I'm called a spiracy theorist. Like she's not following science. I just don't understand. This
is so hard. Why? And, and now I grow up and I'm like, wow, my mom was so based. She knew, she knew
everything. And all these things later would come around and it was like, yeah, this, this diet,
you shouldn't have followed and this drug you shouldn't have taken and all of that. And I'm
like, mom, how did you know? And she's like, common sense. I think for myself, you know,
so, and, and I really appreciate that now. I didn't appreciate it when I was young, but
my mom never took anything at face value. She always wanted to dig in and wait a second and
evaluate. And she, she really just was, she was the real journalist. She inspired me to,
to question things and to not just believe whatever line I'm being told because a lot of
journalism, unfortunately, especially today is just PR. It's PR. You just have to figure out who,
who it's PR for. And so I'm very grateful for that because now I, as an adult, there are things that
I know my, my friends sometimes like regret or things that they did and my, my mom kept me away
from all of that. And so I'm very grateful. It's funny. I have had this almost exact conversation
with Carla before where she's like, man, I thought my mom was crazy. And the older you get it, so
you realize, oh no, they, they were just very based. And, and, and they, they'd literally seen this
movie before. Like they had seen how this played out and, you know, made it their lives extremely
difficult, but then also gave them an advantage when it came to seeing through the, the bullshit when
they got to America. And that's a, it's a powerful thing. You know, one of your, I think it might
be maybe your most watched series on YouTube, your conversations with Whitney Webb, which are like,
they really blew up, clearly got far outside of the Bitcoin echo chamber. Like those were
conversations that did not have an echo chamber. And, and you all touched on just so many of these
things, like the, but the really dark side of some of that, let's say, seeing through the
bullshit, like that is getting down into the, the so many deeper levels than most people think in
terms of corruption, the security state, you guys talked about CBD sees as well, kind of that dystopian
totalitarian future they're trying to usher in under the guise of convenience and, and everything
else. I'm curious, you know, what you think about those conversations resonated with the
guy that got outside the echo chamber really, because obviously you're, you're still a, a
Bitcoin podcast, you're a Bitcoin show, but those interviews really, really blew up. And I think
they clearly struck a chord with people. And we need more of that within the Bitcoin creation
space, I think, because that's how you get that message out to other people. So I'd love to know
kind of what was your takeaway after seeing the amazing response to those after talking with
Whitney, I think three times, right? Having her on the show. And they were incredible discussions.
And I'd love to just hear like how that has shaped kind of some of your thoughts going forward.
Yeah, I hope to have her on again soon. She is such a truth warrior and a real investigative
journalist who puts her, her, I think career name life potentially on the line, because she's calling
out the most powerful people and she really does her homework. I've always respected and admired
people who go the length that you need to go in order to really understand something and follow
the paper trail. So if you read her books, because I read One Nation Under Blackmail, which is,
it's, it's two books that make up, make up the, the, the full series. And it's so in the weeds,
it's like an encyclopedia that connects every single person through their companies and shell,
shell LLCs and organizations. And it's really astonishing the picture that it paints. It's
definitely not a rosy one. It's, it's one where there is darkness and there is corruption. And
there are powerful people who want to maintain their grip and over others and, and their power.
And, and, and the most important thing is just if you're aware of it, then you can take the steps
to really protect yourself as best you can. We can't do everything. It's so, it's hard to make
yourself just disappear online, right? As much as many of us Bitcoiners would probably like to do.
But you can take steps and you can be aware and you can question things around you more and you
can take steps to, to have your information be a little bit more private. And I think that's
ultimately the big takeaway because you can get into the weeds on any of the people that she talks
about, whether it's the Epstein case or any of the bankers or CBDCs or the Weff, you can go down a
lot of different rabbit holes. But I think when you zoom out, it's just this idea that if we allow
ourselves to just be coerced into giving away our rights and our sovereignty and our power and our
finances, then a lot of very scary things can, can happen. And we can sleepwalk into totalitarianism
and we want to avoid that at all costs. And in order to avoid that, you need to become aware,
you need to educate yourself. And so I think that those conversations are very, very important.
It's sad to hear that so many people throughout our history within government and within powerful
organizations have been corrupted. But I think that again, when you have broken money, you have
a broken incentive system and then people are following their own self-interest. And so I hope
that Bitcoin can over the long run help regulate some of that and help make something like corruption
a little bit more difficult and make governments more accountable. I know that it's not going to be
an overnight fix. And even though we say Bitcoin fixes this, I'm obviously realistic in the sense
that it's not going to fix everything all at once overnight and the world is going to be Utopia,
because people are people. But I do think that money at the base layer, if it's not so easily
corrupted and manipulated, it will make it more difficult for some of these nefarious, fraudulent,
theft-driven activities to occur on such a huge level. I mean, I think that what's saddest is
they've just siphoned away so much wealth from the working class. And because it's been just,
you know, a little bit a year every single year. Just 2%. It's like we don't notice it. And yet,
all of a sudden, here we are a couple decades later and there are kids who don't want to start
families and don't have hope in the future because they literally have had their future stolen from
them. They were just totally robbed. And before they were even born, they were robbed. And I think
that's really sad because the future depends on young people having hope and starting businesses
and innovating and having families. And so I hope that fixing our money will help fix some of those
problems, but we've certainly got a lot of problems. It's very true. And it's a worrisome thing where
I think the pendulum can go one of two big swings, which is on the one side, this younger generation
can see all of the corruption and the just grift that has been such an inherent part of our system
for a long time and can say, okay, this is the surface level. They can say, okay,
it's the it's the wealthy elites. And it's because they're not paying enough of their taxes. And you
know what, maybe maybe that Marx guy, that guy with that funny beard that I read his little pamphlet
about and it sounded kind of nice. Maybe he had some good ideas and communism actually is the answer
and will all just be artists after communism comes, which I always just find to be this
hilariously ignorant statement. Because as your parents and Carlos parents know all too well,
wasn't a wasn't a huge art boom during communism. That wasn't exactly how it worked out in practice.
But then the other side that pendulum can swing instead of these kids saying, okay, let's go this
more socialistic, communist, you know, totalitarian route is okay. And this is what I hope maybe they
go a little bit more towards the deeper route and say, things are broken, not just at this surface.
I'm not going to just look at the results. I want to look at what's the cause. And I hope that, you
know, we have an internet native generation, multiple of them now. They are in a better position
to grok Bitcoin, at least as magic internet money, than anyone who's older than them,
their position for it. They just need to see the right message, hopefully not get sucked into the
the, the grift of shit coinery, which is very alluring, because they think, again, low, you
know, or high time preference, they're thinking, I need to, I need to get rich quick. I'm in such
a hole. I've got these student loans, I've got everything else, I need to make a quick buck
and turn around. I, I do have hope, though, that enough of the kids are all right, and are starting
to look deeper, that we do have some, we have some opportunity, and the potential for a lot of
prosperity ahead of us, if people pay attention. But that's hard in this day and age, sadly.
For sure. But I do, I do have hope. I mean, Bitcoin does give me hope in, in realigning some of this
and inspiring people and also just amending some of our value systems that have gone awry, because
with all of this too, I think we've, we've thrust away incentives from having families.
And from, from certain things that I think just represent character and integrity. And right now,
I think one of the saddest things is seeing young people who just want to, you know, go on only fans
as opposed to getting a skill, because, because potentially being an only fans model makes you
more than being a neurosurgeon. And so like, what, what is that about? Right? So, so I think that we,
so I think that we really need to take a hard look at some of these things. And, and I'm inspired by
people who are in this space, who are working every single day to help get the information out so
that people feel empowered. Because I think that at the end of it, kind of what I said on, on the
show last time I was on Fox Business, people have lost a sense of hope that anything will get better.
And when you don't have hope, and the pressure keeps just pushing down on you, and you need every
single person in the family to provide and to try to help make ends meet, you start to feel like,
you know what, whatever, whatever, value system, it's, it all turns into short term thinking.
And that's where I think we run into the most problems and we see societal decay start to set
in when morality goes away, the respect of the rule of law, respect of one another, because
ultimately you're no longer even respecting yourself. And you're not reaching your potential.
Like my favorite quote has always been, make the most of yourself for that is all there is of you.
And, and I feel like I was raised with this idea that you, you can make anything you want happen.
I mean, that's what the American dream stands for. But you have to work hard and you have to be a good
person, because we are all connected in this, in this world in our small communities, but
zooming out in all the communities that make up our world, we all can make a difference.
And anyone can come up with the next idea that, that revolutionizes an industry or, or changes the
world. I mean, anyone is capable of amazing things, but we all have to kind of get along.
We all have to believe in ourselves and we all have to have good money that we can trust.
Amen. You know, I think what you said about hard work and perhaps some of the
hesitancy to pursue paths that are hard amongst, and I think that every older generation probably
says this about every younger generation and will for the rest of time, you know, the nobody wants to
work anymore is the common old trope, but, and it probably is true to an extent in every generation.
And also we see technological changes in every generation that make the type of work change as
well. But I hope that we do in general get back to a place where success is admired,
not because of the end result of the success, but because of the hard work that went into it.
Because I think it is very easy now in this heavily social media controlled atmosphere that we have,
you know, people are looking on, on Instagram and on TikTok at these, you know, or maybe
Facebook, or people still using it, I'm not sure. But they look at these, you know, perfectly
manicured and, and, you know, put together little lives that they believe that other people have.
And they're looking at the fancy watches and the fancy cars or whatever it may be.
And, you know, there's become this weird thing of, you can get rich quick and easy. And I'm going to
sell you how many courses I see that it's like, let me show you how to make $50,000 a week online
dropshipping or doing one, some other ridiculous thing. And people don't want to work for the
success anymore. They don't, they just want the end result. They don't want, you know, like, I
guess they didn't learn the whole saying it's not about the destination, it's about the journey.
But I think that in a, in a very beautiful way, Bitcoin, the fact that Bitcoin itself is proof
of work, I know it's caused me personally to think a lot more about what is my proof of work?
What is the effort that I'm putting in? What is the time, the energy? What is the value I'm creating?
Because I don't want to create things that are of little value that somehow make me a lot of money.
That just doesn't, I don't think that feels good. That's not satisfying. That's not fulfilling.
And at the end of the day, we, you see with all the instances of mental illness of depression,
people clearly are at a loss for meaning in their lives. And I don't know, I think we'll see in this
AI transition, we're going to see a lot more people going back to technical schools, to
technical schools, to apprenticeships, to real, you know, what you'd call blue collar work that is
now making you a lot of money. Because for so many years, we said, everybody needs to go to college.
Everybody needs to get a degree. Everybody's got a, you know, your underwater basket weaving degree
that cost you $200,000 and you're going to be in debt for for the rest of your life.
People are starting to realize that was a little bit of a scam. And a lot of degrees are very,
very useful. But I think that we're going to see a transition back to people saying,
you know what, I'm going to go learn how to be a plumber. And I'm going to do this two-year
apprenticeship without any debt. And I'm going to come out making a lot of money, you know, because
it's a, it's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it. And they're going to pay you very well to do
that job. So that I think we'll see that also on the, the only fans note, I have to imagine that
taking a Jeff Booth point of view here with, you know, everything trending towards the marginal
cost of production, AI is going to make that industry basically obsolete because the marginal,
the marginal cost of producing that sort of content, let's say, is going to trend to basically
zero. And so the marginal cost to consume it is going to be basically zero. And I don't think
it's going to be, I think, I think there is still room for neurosurgeons, at least for the time being,
I hope anyway. Yeah. And you know, it's funny, I know that we see him as sort of our antagonist
in the space, but I highly recommend that people read Peter Schiff's book, The Real Crash, because
he talks about why the cost of college is so high and how government incentives have created a lot
of moral hazards there that have ballooned the cost of education. So that yes, your gender studies
degree is like $250,000 and it's very hard to, to pay off. I really recommend people read that
because it's very, very good. I know that he comes to a different solution. I think he'll eventually
see Bitcoin, but it's very poignant. I'm going to have to check that out because, you know,
he's at least a good sport about it. Like he takes a lot of flak. I mean, to be fair, he says
things that are worthy of taking that flak. But I sometimes I just wonder, like, is it all just
an act? Like, is he just a very good actor? He's got his nice little stack of Bitcoin sitting on
the side and he's just trying to do that. What the rest of us are, which is keep the price low to
stack more. So he's throwing the foot out there. He's actually, maybe he's helping us more than we
realize. I think that he knows that the second he decides to say, all right, guys, you were right,
I'm a Bitcoiner now, that we will open our arms and welcome him into Bitcoin.
I think, I mean, gosh, I'd love to see him talk at a Bitcoin conference. Now that like,
that would be fantastic. I would absolutely love to see that. We love the turnarounds. There's been
so many, you know, exactly. Lots of great ones. It's a, I was going to say rags to riches, but
it's a, I don't know, a gold to bits story. Yeah. It's never too late. We're all later than someone
to Bitcoin, but we're all early. Well said. And Peter, if you're listening to this, you know,
maybe, maybe you can come to a Bitcoin conference sometime. You will be well received. I can guarantee
it. Well, well, Natalie, I want to be conscious of your time here because it is scarce like Bitcoin.
But I'm wondering, is there anywhere you want to point people in terms of something you're
working on right now? I know your Vivek interview is coming out on the 16th. I think that's, again,
going to reach outside the echo chamber. Can you give us any teasers about that? I don't want to,
I don't want to spoil anything. Is there any, was there any takeaway from it where you were like,
okay, wow, people need to see this? Yeah, sure. It was a fascinating conversation. And I really
tried to focus it more on his economic views and policies, including his stance on, on Bitcoin,
of course, less of the political stuff. We didn't talk about the GOP debate and all of that. So
really, I just wanted to hear how he plans to rebuild the American dream that's really important
to him. His parents are immigrants, just like mine. And so, yeah, we talked a lot about that
and Bitcoin. And I hope people check it out. I hope people subscribe to the podcast in the
coming months. I'm going to have more one-on-one educational content out there because I think
it's going to be needed as we hit the next, the next wave of adoption, which will probably come as we
witness the having and maybe these spot Bitcoin ETF approvals. I just, I feel like no matter what
happens in the bigger economy, the next year is going to be big and important for Bitcoin. So
we want to get people educated so that they understand it and go down the rabbit hole.
I could not agree more. Do you have, do you have some upcoming mainstream legacy media
appearances as well? Because the boomers watching Fox and CNBC, they need Bitcoin as well, even if
they don't necessarily know it yet. But I have to imagine a lot of them orange-pilled through your
efforts. Do you have some more lined up or do they just, is it as needed basis with you?
Yeah, I never, I never know when it's going to happen. A lot of times it, it's generally because
there's some headline related to Bitcoin. So hopefully, hopefully that'll happen some more.
And yeah, maybe someday it'll be a more regular fixture hearing Bitcoin on these mainstream
channels. I hope so. And the last question I have for you, besides Peter Schiff's book,
is there anything else you'd recommend that you're reading right now or that you are planning to dive
into that you are excited about? Well, the most recent book I read was actually Capitalist
Punishment, which is by Vivek Ramiswamy. He talks about how Wall Street firms have sort of
seized the American economy and how that's led to more and more wealth concentration. And that
was a really interesting book. So I recommend that for, for those curious. I think the book I
really want to recommend is Broken Money. I know a lot of the Bitcoiners are talking about it. I
had a chance to interview Lynn and she just makes it so simple to understand the complete history
of how we got to this point. The good and bad of why we got to fiat and why it made sense and why
we need a solution now with Bitcoin, some of the risks involved. She's always so thoughtful and she's
very, very balanced. So I really hope everyone goes out and gets her book. Yeah, I can also
second that endorsement. She explains things in a really beautifully logical way. Like I'd like to
say she writes like an engineer who actually knows how to write well. Most engineers do not.
And it is a fantastic, it should be a primer now along with the Bitcoin standard, I think, for
really having that fundamental understanding. Completely, completely. And I just, I think
that there's no one more, more brilliant and even keeled in the space. And we're so lucky to have her
brainpower. It's like, if you don't like Lynn Alden, the problem's you, not Lynn. That's how I feel.
I agree. I mean, it's another one of those things. The more people I meet through Bitcoin,
the more hope I have, whether those are technical people, whether those are people who are, you
know, reformed hedge fund guys like James Lavish, whether they're, you know, technologists like
Jeff Booth, brilliant macro thinkers and investors like Lynn. There are so many people that give
me so much hope. And it's hard to imagine, it's hard to imagine those types of people
being anywhere else right now. Again, it's like, I don't know where we would all be if Bitcoin
didn't exist, but I'm really glad that it does. And that we're here in this place and space and time.
I'm glad that you exist also, Natalie, and that you joined me on this show. So I'll link to all
your stuff in the show notes. Can't wait to watch that interview with Vivek. Just want to say, and
a lot of people on Noster and X comments this as well, thank you for what you do, because you are a
great, great voice for Bitcoin that cuts through into the mainstream and does so, so elegantly.
So thank you for that. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate Walker. And I am grateful to
be your friend. The feeling is very mutual. So thank you, everyone, for watching. Bitcoin is
scarce, but Bitcoin podcasts are abundant. So thank you for listening to another fucking Bitcoin
podcast. Listen to Natalie's as well. You probably already have, but listen to her upcoming interviews.
And again, Natalie, thank you so much for sharing your time.
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast. If you are a Bitcoin only
company interested in sponsoring another fucking Bitcoin podcast, head to Bitcoin podcast.net or
hit me up on social media on Noster. Head to primal.net slash Walker. And on Twitter, search for at
Walker America or at TIT coin podcast. You can also watch the video version of this show on X or on
YouTube by going to YouTube.com slash Walker America or rumble by searching for at Walker
America. Bitcoin is scarce. There will only ever be 21 million, but Bitcoin podcasts are abundant.
So thank you for spending your scarce time to listen to another fucking Bitcoin podcast.
Until next time, stay free.