I truly think a Bitcoin rewards credit card will be a top three Bitcoin product of all
time and that's only behind the Bitcoin exchange and the Bitcoin ETF.
The credit card just represents such an incredible avenue for Bitcoiners for a couple reasons.
It's pure Gresham's law.
You are getting to spend bad money on credit into earn Bitcoin the hardest money available
and build your savings that way.
So it is a perfect alignment of incentives.
Everybody has a credit card.
95% of our customers today have a credit card and we've seen what our customers have
done with the debit card, our checking account stack, our Bitcoin exchange.
And this is really the missing piece or really the toolkit that is kind of the ultimate Bitcoiners
toolkit that allows you to maximize exposure, maximize accumulation of Bitcoin at the same
time of maintaining your connectivity to the rest of the world and to do the things you
need to do.
Greetings and salutations my fellow plebs.
My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast.
The Bitcoin time chain is 883356 and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.
Today my guest is Will Reeves, the CEO of Fold.
Fold just opened up their waitlist for their Bitcoin rewards credit card.
You can head to the show notes right now and grab the link to jump on that waitlist, which
I personally just did because I cannot wait to earn Bitcoin while spending my dirty fiat.
Will and I dug deep into how broken the current credit card reward system is.
While their Bitcoin rewards card fixes this, Fold's upcoming move to become a publicly
traded Bitcoin company, Bitcoin Treasury strategies where we're at in this adoption
cycle and a whole lot more.
Before we dive into me, a quick favor and subscribe to the Bitcoin podcast wherever
you are listening and make sure to subscribe on YouTube or rumble as well by searching
for Walker America.
And if you find this show valuable, consider giving it a zap on Noster or a boost on Fountain
Mountain.
You can find me on Noster at primal.net slash Walker and this podcast at primal.net slash
TIT coin.
Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk with Will Reeves.
Well, welcome.
Good to have you on here.
Big day for Fold.
How are you holding up?
It's a great day.
Very, very excited.
It's been a long time since you and I have been able to speak.
So lots of catching up to do.
But yeah, today's great.
We just announced what I think is probably the most anticipated and most requested product
at Fold.
So our Bitcoin rewards credit card is finally here.
So excited to share it with the world.
I mean, I'm not going to lie.
I am super stoked about this, the rewards credit card.
I was actually a quite a fan of the BlockFi Bitcoin rewards credit card until I wasn't,
you know, because BlockFi obviously had some some big issues and luckily I was able to
get the sats that I had earned out of there.
But I thought like that was such a, it was a nice product when they had it.
Obviously, they had a bunch of other mismanagement issues that I don't think are present at Fold.
But like the market seems to have really been craving something like this.
And you guys have now brought it out.
I mean, I assume the reception so far has looked, I mean, people seem pretty excited
about this.
They're kind of sick of their typical credit card rewards.
I'm guessing that's kind of the feedback you're getting.
Yeah, I think this is, there's been pent up demand stand for this since the BlockFi
card, you know, went away.
And I think that card was one of the, I think best Bitcoin products that has ever existed.
And it's unfortunate, like you said, that it went under due to other aspects of that
business.
But, you know, that team, that card, and I'd like to say this too, because a few of the
members who built that card are actually on Fold's team bringing this to market, getting
there kind of round two.
And I truly think the Bitcoin rewards credit card will be a top three Bitcoin product of
all time.
And that's only behind the Bitcoin exchange and the Bitcoin ETF.
The credit card just represents such an incredible avenue for Bitcoiners for a couple reasons.
You know, it's pure Gresham's law, you know, you are getting to spend bad money on credit
into earn Bitcoin the hardest money available and build your savings that way.
And so it is a perfect alignment of incentives.
Everybody has a credit card, 95% of our customers today have a credit card.
And we've seen, you know, what our customers have done with the debit card, our checking
account stack, our Bitcoin exchange.
And this is really the missing piece for really the toolkit that is kind of the ultimate Bitcoiners
toolkit that allows you to maximize exposure, maximize accumulation of Bitcoin at the same
time of, you know, maintaining your connectivity to the rest of the world and to do the things
you need to do.
And we talk first because I was reading the press release, you guys had come out and you
had one quote in there, they were quoting you directly, we aim to dethrone miles as
the go to credit card reward.
And I was just thinking about it.
I was like, when did, like, when did miles become this kind of go to thing?
Like, why, why wasn't that airline miles, all the credit cards were like, yep, well,
this is what we're going to give you.
Because in my opinion, it's like airline miles, sometimes they're convenient, but it's also
like they're worse than fiat.
Like they're a fiat, like derivative of a derivative, they can just create them, they
can change the exchange rate whenever they want.
Like, they're actually kind of a scam.
Like how did, how did that come to be the go to?
It's a truly amazing story because at some point the airline miles completely reenergized
the credit card industry.
And in a big way has become like a cultural phenomenon, people, you know, flexing on what
lounge is there in or having some direct brand affinity because they're a Delta holder or
a, you know, who knows what it is.
And it's settled in this really deep way into the American consumer consciousness and in
ways that I don't think the airlines even understood.
And the way why you know that is today most airlines are actually credit card companies
masterating as airlines.
Today there are over 30 trillion unredeemed airline miles out there that represents billions
and billions of dollars.
And if during COVID when the, the airlines were under stress because no one was traveling
anymore, the, their airline mile programs saved them because they took loans out against
them.
And that essentially kept these airlines afloat, taking loans using the collateral of the
outstanding airline miles.
So it's just like, it's, it's one of those things that got very big transformed an entire
industry into something that airline companies are actually credit card companies.
And what we've seen, you know, I think at the beginning it really worked because it
was status.
It was a, it was a reward.
Whereas before there were really no good options or coherent rewards.
There was like dining rewards, there was some hotel points, but flights represented actually
a good avenue for giving perks and rewards, especially cause you can print miles out of
nowhere.
And so they loved this, they love this ability.
Once you get a money printer or discover you have a money printer, that's when things start
to, you know, people can't resist.
And so they didn't resist.
And today we have 30 trillion unrealized airline miles sitting out there.
And at the same time, they have devalued those programs so terribly that the department of
transportation has all the major airlines are under investigation because Americans consider
their, their credit card rewards as an integral part of their savings.
And so now you have all these Americans relying on these programs and they are, they're, they're
consistently devaluing them 20, 50% each year.
And at the same time, they're rolling back all of the prestige, all of the status that
was once afforded to the holders of those miles.
And so from my perspective, it's incredible.
We are aimed to dethrone US airline miles as the preferred consumer reward replacing
with Bitcoin.
And at the same time, we're offering a reward that has been increasing in value 60, 70% year
over year.
And our competition has been devaluing it almost at the same rate as at the same time
has been devaluing the experience.
And so as that brand erodes, I believe Bitcoin is just absolutely poised to become the household
preferred consumer reward.
And that's a big prize to win because the largest and largest airline mile cards process
1% of the entire US GDP.
So you have, you have people chasing airline miles so fervently that they're pushing 1%
of US GDP through these, through these credit cards and fold, I believe has a real opportunity
to make this cultural shift, bringing people to Bitcoin rewards to truly build savings
at the same time as for fold as a company to be able to inherit that type of volume.
So it's, we're in a good position.
I mean, I actually did not know the airline mile situation was that, let's say extreme.
I didn't know that it was that massive of, I mean, it just, it just kind of seems like
a racket though, because they can, you know, change the redemption qualification, change
all these things.
You know, anytime you try to use miles, it's like, Oh no, sorry, you can't apply it to
that flight or it'll apply to this flight, but it'll cost you twice as much.
Like they're just gaming it constantly.
And it just seems like kind of a big scam.
So I mean, given the addressable market then that you guys are looking at, like if we just
look at air, you know, like airline rewards there and trying to kind of dethrone that
unseat that, are you guys really also, you know, this isn't just a product for people
who are already hardcore bit coiners, you're looking at actually kind of doing some orange
pilling through this, like as people are looking for new, you know, credit card reward programs,
they're shopping around, you're hoping to kind of situate yourself as a new alternative
that hasn't really existed before.
Is that, is that fair?
Yeah, I think actually one of my, one of the things I'm most excited about this program
is that the entire Bitcoin funnel and adoption funnel has really been upended over the last
12 to 18 months.
You have instead of people coming through the exchanges to first a coin base to then
get access to some Bitcoin, also a bunch of other tokens are thrown in their face at the
same time.
Really now what we're seeing is at the top of the funnel is the ETF.
The ETF is both establishing a new funnel, a new user base who are coming in, transferring
their retirement funds or purchasing Bitcoin, you know, Bitcoin ETF via a brokerage.
Now I think that's ultimately great more exposure for Bitcoin.
There are things to be concerned about.
And I think this credit card may actually bring some of the solution to that concern.
And that's, you know, ultimately as a Bitcoin or someone who believes that fundamental value
of Bitcoin comes from the ability to self-sovereign, hold that value yourself to be able to transmit
and send that to whoever, whenever.
That's just not the case with an ETF.
You are not holding that in your own custody.
You cannot really do anything with the ETF.
But this product I think is going to be very, very popular with all the investors who decide
it, hey, I'm going to put some in retirement in there.
I'm going to buy some Bitcoin ETF, I bit through my brokerage.
And I want, of course, I want my rewards to be in Bitcoin as well.
This is, I'm bought into the idea of Bitcoin.
Now the credit card rewards that they're going to earn off of this actually represents an
opportunity for them to self-custody Bitcoin for the first time.
So whereas they may you'd be used to, you know, the ETF and it feels good because it feels
like their brokerage fold as an opportunity to allow them to earn Bitcoin through another
avenue that allows them to directly self-custody.
And I think that's going to lead to a transformation and how they look at their ETF holdings and
say, hey, maybe I want some of that in self-custody.
And I think there's a great learning element.
There's a way to reach an audience that really needs to hear this and they want the card.
I think that's, it's kind of an incredible new funnel really for, for people.
And I, it is amazing to see this shift because again, I have not been in Bitcoin that long.
I got in like 2020, 2021, you know, I haven't, this is kind of my first like real cycle,
like seeing the start of another cycle, you know.
And so this is all still a little bit new for me.
I mean, I feel like it's been decades, but like I've only been alive a few decades.
So I guess it's, it's just been a couple of years feels longer.
But just seeing in the last, you know, you mentioned the last 12, 18 months, seeing the
way that the, the conversation has shifted to where this isn't just whenever Bitcoin
is really pumping or really dumping.
It's on the news with some sensationalist headline.
It's like, this is key policymakers.
This is the president of the United States talking about it.
This is, you know, Larry Fink of BlackRock talking about it.
This is a kind of, it feels like a different paradigm that we're in now where it's just
part of the conversation.
And you mentioned the self custody piece, which I think is, is incredible because it's
like you can't certainly, well, you can't self custody fiat unless you, you know, you
can't do it digitally.
You can have some under your mattress physically.
You can't do it digitally.
And you certainly can't take custody of your airline miles.
Like those are really again, like a fiat derivative in the worst possible way.
And so I think that's,
That's not your cold yard, your airline miles.
Yeah.
I mean, maybe, yeah, maybe they can issue some sort of support for that.
I don't know.
We'll have to petition the airlines for it.
But I mean, it seems that this is kind of like a really like right place, right time
to be doing this.
And I'm curious too, I mean, just to talk about the specifics of it a little bit, can
you just walk through for folks what they actually get out of this card?
Like what, what are the benefits that they're getting?
How does this kind of compare to maybe what they're used to in the usual credit card points,
rewards industry?
Yeah.
So our, our intention with this was to keep it as simple and straightforward as possible.
We want to reduce any strain or reason why you would want to switch over your miles to
Bitcoin.
And so for us, it's a straight 2% unlimited rewards on all purchases.
So in addition to that, we are going to have spotlight categories where we currently fold
today has one of the largest networks of Bitcoin rewards merchants out there.
So Amazon, Uber, Starbucks are all existing parvots.
So you're going to be able to increase your awards at our partners and during some categories.
But what you can expect as a full plus members, that's a premium subscriber at folding at
2% unlimited.
If you want to come in and if just have a free, free card, you're going to get 1.5% unlimited.
And so the idea is that we give you a solid percent back that can really go toe to toe
with any card in the market.
You're not, you're not saying I'm going to, you know, opt for something lower necessarily
so I can get Bitcoin.
We want to, we want, we're going against the biggest credit card companies out there.
So we want to maximize that value proposition.
So up to 2% unlimited, our premium tier will also get a free metal card.
Again, let's go toe to toe with the status games that are played with the airline miles
and kind of fiat credit cards out there.
And then we'll have welcome bonuses that you can earn up to $250 and Bitcoin back based
on if you do your Bitcoin buying with us, if you convert your paycheck into Bitcoin with
us, if you spend on our debit card, if you use our other services, if you use your credit
bonuses and unlock that, they'll be welcome bonuses.
And so it's both familiar, but also just very simple with the idea that it is, you know,
maximally available and valuable to what I believe is going to be an addressable market
of, you know, tens of millions of people.
That's, you know, that's how we're going to get to dethroning airline miles from their
corrupt position.
I mean, I love it.
And I'm curious if I can ask a little bit.
How does that work on the like the back end for you guys?
How do you, you know, are you whatever you're able to get into?
Are you guys basically, you know, are you kind of just, I mean, obviously you guys buy
a lot of Bitcoin, you give out a lot of Bitcoin, you hold Bitcoin as a treasury, which I want
to get into as well.
But how does, how do the logistics of this work for you guys as a company so that you
can actually make this work, make it sustainable?
Essentially Fold is a 24 seven buyer of Bitcoin.
So we are buying Bitcoin all day, every day as our customers swipes.
We already have a card program today.
We've given away $70 million worth of Bitcoin to our, our customer base on Fold.
If our customers had been using a traditional bank debit card, they would have been earning
around under $20 million.
So our customers are directly wealthier, have more savings and their peers simply because
they chose Bitcoin and they use Fold.
So it is a very simple things to make and that's true of their savings too.
Our customers savings accounts are, are outpacing that other peers by 62%.
Bitcoin is the apex predator.
You cannot compete with it.
And so for the debit card, you know, we have a 1.5% on our top categories.
Everything else is going to be half a percent.
The economics on the debit card are a little bit lower.
But what we do is we get paid by Visa every single time you swipe your card.
So we're taking those payments in and in real time we're buying Bitcoin, essentially for
you.
So as you're earning Bitcoin, we are, are purchasing.
So we're always mashing liability.
We have more Bitcoin than our, than our, than we currently owe to our customers.
That's a part of our policy is to always be over, have more than our current liabilities.
And the credit card represents a, a much larger opportunity because not only are the
economics much better, but you're going to earn a lot more rewards.
So for us, Visa is going to pay us every time you swipe that card about two times more than
they do with our debit card.
And we pass that almost 100% on to our customers so that they have a way to not only stack
sats on every purchase, what they could do today with fold, but they can do that on credit,
on someone else's dollar, which is, I think the real unlock in terms of both being a value
proposition and saving in Bitcoin as you're spending someone else's fiat.
It's perfect.
I mean, that's kind of, it feels like, it feels like almost a cheat code.
Like you're, you mean I'm, I can spend this fiat credit and I get to earn Bitcoin by
spending that fiat credit.
It just, it, it seems like, like too good to be true, but like it's obviously like,
it's real, like it's happening.
And I just feel like this, this is going to be one of those things where, you know, in,
in, you know, probably not even that long, five, 10 years, people look back and they're
like, you know, wow, like I was able to, you know, put a down payment on my house with
my Bitcoin rewards.
Like because that's the thing we're talking about.
We're talking about the only true scarce asset out there.
And the fact that again, you can, you know, again, whether or not you detest fiat and
think it should, you know, burn in a massive fire.
Maybe most of us at least still use fiat in a lot of ways and particularly credit cards
because they're useful.
Whether or not you get much out of that from an like airline miles perspective or whatever
else, you know, their, their cashback conversions, which are always like the worst option that
you can choose because they give you even less.
Like this just seems like a better option in general.
And so, you know, I'm, I'm curious too.
So you guys at Fold, you're going to be going public here fairly.
I don't know the exact date.
I'm not sure if that's, if that part is public yet or anything, but is this kind of part
of a larger plan?
I mean, you guys, I believe, bill yourself as like a financial services company.
So I'm just curious how you see Fold evolving now.
I mean, is it, is it the transition to basically being a full service provider of, you know,
do a lot of services already.
Now you're adding the credit card.
Like what does that start to look like as Fold goes public and then Fold continues to grow?
So you know, really where Fold is in evolution is really kind of just, it started with an
idea that just continued to build and build and build based on what Bitcoin did and what
people have wanted from us.
We started from rewards and our, our immediate idea was, Hey, the real problem is not that
people can't spend the Bitcoin.
The people is that people don't have enough money for savings at all.
The idea of saving and Bitcoin, verse dollars is not the right question.
It's people don't have money to save.
And so Fold was started with the idea of how can we create a passive flow of Bitcoin into
someone's portfolio and do that without them actually changing any behaviors, just doing
what they do normally.
And so this is why we really focused on rewards.
This was our foothold to expand the idea of savings in general, some more people in Bitcoin
is the tool that we actually are able to fill it with.
And so we started there, that went and that, you know, really took off from our rewards
network.
We have incredible partners.
Oh, we have a debit card that we actually was the first Bitcoin rewards card ever launched.
And for us, we saw what our customers were doing.
Not only are, were they earning so much so much rewards and value in their Bitcoin, they
were actually saying, this makes sense, not only as a reward, I want to save my money
in Bitcoin now.
So they asked us to build out our Bitcoin custody and Bitcoin paycheck conversion away
for them to buy Bitcoin that sits right next to their savings account.
And those customers who did that, their savings is outpacing their peers by 60 plus percent.
So now they're saying the rewards are great.
The savings are incredible.
But now I have all this Bitcoin that represents 50 plus percent of my net worth.
And I can't do anything with it.
None of the traditional financial institutions actually allow me to leverage it like I would
my fiat.
And so for foal, what we try to do is stay very close to what our customers present situation
is, and they happen to be wealthier, growing wealthier and more savings than their peers.
And they aren't met by anyone on the market with a way to actually fulfill their daily
needs, their monthly bill payments, their credit worthiness, access to loans.
And so foal does really always just following our customers because these customers represent
what I believe is the future.
People who have chosen into to save in Bitcoin as a means of preserving their wealth, as a
means of preserving their children's future.
And this idea is becoming more and more understood in the mainstream.
We now have nation states thinking this way.
And so foal has been really following what problems do those people have?
Why are they some of the wealthiest people you know, but they have problems getting a
house?
Something is wrong here.
And what we see, and these are problems that I've lived personally on the team, I think
I know you guys are living this personally in many ways.
So staying true to that has brought us to a reality where foal is a financial services
company that puts Bitcoin at the center to give our customers an advantage in life.
And it's not accumulate Bitcoin for Bitcoin sake.
It's what does Bitcoin then enable you to do?
And for our customers, they want to live better lives.
They want to spend more time with their family.
They want to open up more opportunities for themselves.
They want to expand their business.
And Bitcoin is the best way to do this.
And so all of our products that we've built has been in service of that.
How can we lead and accelerate prosperity in the lives of our customers?
And so what I think you're going to see is foal really represents what a bank will look
like or a banking platform will look like in 10, 15 years.
We've pulled that timeline way up.
We have SAV 121 was just overturned, which essentially allows banks to custody and hold
Bitcoin.
Now, just because they can legally doesn't mean they will or doesn't mean they have a
strategy.
And most importantly, doesn't mean they actually can operationally executed.
And I think a lot of them are going to see what foal is ultimately going to do is show
the way of what a banking institution looks like.
And it's not just magically changed because of Bitcoin.
It's actually Bitcoin fundamentally changes the value exchange between customers and the
financial institution.
The more value our customers have in rewards, the better for us, the more they will need
a loan on that reward.
The more they can buy a larger home or the more that their family will be able to be
able to be in a better spot that makes sure their customers for longer.
Now, compare that to any other reward program.
Their main goal is to make sure your rewards are constantly cut to zero in any way possible.
Then you think of savings accounts in Bitcoin, our customers just by holding Bitcoin are
outpacing their peers.
And so for us, we want to accelerate that.
So for us, we want to open up ways in which that savings that they've accrued is useful.
We don't necessarily need to have everyone earning a 5% in treasuries when Bitcoin is
around.
We're opening up optionality for our customers, even if fold is not getting the benefit of
a treasury yield on top of it.
Our customers are just getting wealthy 60% faster than using a trend.
That's where fold wins.
And you can really go down the line of the traditional financial stack.
And the crazy thing is not just how it makes the lives of those that are accumulating Bitcoin
better, but how it makes the business models of financial companies better, where we are
both aligned and incentivized in mutually beneficial outcomes.
It's not zero sum games.
It's not I'm a lender, you're a borrower, and we are always in contention.
There are ways actually that bring alignment that will truly be the big changes that we
see in terms of how we interact with our money, not just holding it, but how the world re-orients
around this new relationship.
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So thank you.
I'm really glad you brought up the repeal of SAB 121 because that's one of the things
I wanted to ask you about is, you know, a lot of the things that you're starting to
offer as a financial services company, it really does start to look like a bank.
And I think we Bitcoiners, we have like a when we say the word bank, sometimes we get
a bad taste in our mouth, you know, because we've been so jaded by the fiat banking system.
But it's, you know, bank survey useful function.
It's just that they've really been completely, you know, kind of had that usefulness mostly
destroyed and turned into very crooked institutions.
And so I'm curious, you know, I mean, I think one of the things that Bitcoiners are very
excited about in general is like securing, you know, lines of credit or securing loans
based on Bitcoin holdings that they have, you seem to be kind of hinting at that a little
bit earlier.
Is that something that you guys are looking at in terms of kind of one of the parts of
the next evolution of your offerings?
Yeah, we see the credit card that we've announced and as really the first kind of step in our
strategy in this direction, what do we know?
We know that about 60% of our users believe they need to access a line of credit or loan
on their Bitcoin in the next 12 months to fulfill basic life needs.
Right?
So this is a, this is a very present need for our customers, which means it's a present
need for us to help fulfill.
And so the credit card really represents the first step.
And what does that mean?
It's an unsecured line of credit.
You don't even have to put your Bitcoin up as collateral and risk liquidation and all
the stress of margin calls and high interest rates and for putting up your Bitcoin.
And we're offering a very simple unsecured credit product.
So that's a loan is going to open up access to credit and value for our customers in ways
that don't always, don't always exist for them.
The second thing is we start to look at, well, how can we use Bitcoin as a way to have a
larger understanding of credit worthiness?
Today we have credit scores that are out there that are essentially there to chop up, you
know, who is eligible for money and who is not.
And it's essentially a caste system in many ways that not only do you, the only way to
get your credit score up is to take on more debt.
But if you, if you mess up at all, your ability as an economic actor in society plummets,
your ability to draw credit is one of the most important things an economic individual
has at their disposal.
But we believe Bitcoin could open up this very archaic concept of a credit, credit score
to create not only a better signal for credit worthiness, I can see this person has accumulated
this much Bitcoin that we can engage in a multi-sig arrangement that allows us to protect
and enforce that credit worthiness.
So I think there's an interesting thing there.
There's also an interesting thing of how does Bitcoin allow us to redefine lenders and borrowers
in their relationship.
And so I kind of look at this as the one of loans, which we've seen from, you know, you
name it, some don't exist anymore, some are still around.
But you put up Bitcoin as collateral, you're getting some kind of loan to value that's
pretty restrictive, or if it's too generous, it can get you in a little bit of trouble.
But then you have margin call risk, liquidation risk, you know, we just had a couple huge
swings in Bitcoin to the upside and downside that that's just not a great relationship
when you have your Bitcoin locked up in a loan.
And suddenly you're being liquidated.
I don't believe that's a mass market product.
I don't also believe that the interest rates you get as a result of locking up your Bitcoin
are really high compared to the risk you're taking by putting up your Bitcoin.
So I think all of this is kind of V1.
If your Bitcoin is able to be liquidated, I think that's V1 loans.
And if your interest rates are higher than what you could get on your fiat, that's a
V1 loan.
That's kind of first chapter.
What Fold is looking at is what's the next chapter for loans?
And it is not the typical collateralized loan with margin calls and liquidation risk.
We say, well, Bitcoin is a long term, long term, we have a long term view on Bitcoin
and so do our customers.
So let's create loans that are longer term.
Let's create loans that actually with the long term allow us to handle short term volatility
so that it doesn't create a scary or anxious product experience and doesn't create a relationship
for us where we are incentivized to go and take that from our customers.
And by taking a long term loan, we can have a longer relationship.
That means we can draw down interest rates in many ways.
And there's also potential of, hey, can we bake in Bitcoin into that loan where the company,
the lender, it gets a share of the appreciation of your Bitcoin over time in return for a
much lower interest rate.
So you go from a down payment of 10,000 a month to a down payment of 3,000 a month.
For some people that makes sense depending on what their cash flow situation is.
And so this credit card is really the first shot across the bow of a series of kind of
a work that we're going to do in this space.
But we believe that really getting Bitcoin loans right requires a totally different perspective
than what's been taken thus far.
And I think you're going to see a proliferation of what I would call kind of first generation
Bitcoin lending opportunities come to market.
But what Fold is going to look at is really what is the long term status of a Bitcoin
loan that truly changes the dynamic between lenders and borrowers.
And that is the product that's really going to win.
And I think we have the team to really do that.
And it seems like too, you mentioned just because the SAV121 has been repealed just
because the banks now technically have the ability to do this.
It's not like they can just snap their fingers and make this happen overnight or are willing
or even want to.
Maybe not willing and maybe certainly not able yet.
They don't have the infrastructure in place.
They certainly don't have a ton of Bitcoiners working for them.
Maybe that number is growing just as Bitcoin grows.
But it's kind of interesting.
I kind of have this sense that, okay, even with the changing regulatory environment, it
feels like a lot of these big incumbent players are going to be really slow to offer some
of these products that we know the market wants.
But they were slow to get Bitcoin in the first place.
It took Larry Fink getting out there and making some very strong statements for people in
the Treadfire world to pay attention.
But the interesting thing I think about Fold is you guys are trying to play in the same
arena, but you're coming from a completely different starting point.
You're coming from the position of a Bitcoin company made of Bitcoiners, buy Bitcoiners,
for Bitcoiners basically.
And it just seems like you guys have more of an advantage in this because you're also,
you're smaller, you can move a little bit quicker and you actively know what products
your customers want because you guys are yourselves customers of your own products.
You have these struggles.
Even right now, I think a lot of Bitcoiners are in the position where it's like, at least
in America, I can't speak for other countries.
But if you want to get a loan and you need to show some assets, it's like you will not
be able to use Bitcoin as to show, banks won't even look at it.
It doesn't matter if you're a Bitcoin millionaire in fiat terms, they'll just say, no, sorry,
we don't look at that.
So you may have all of this capital, but you actually have no way to kind of be able to
utilize that capital to live your life in a lot of ways.
Because let's be honest, we're not hyper-Bitcoinized yet.
You can't pay for everything in Bitcoin.
It's just the reality.
And so I think these products are really important and it's kind of exciting to see
too.
Are you guys, I mean, how many total customers do you guys have right now, just with the
debit card products?
So in our latest filing in the process of going public, we were able to at foldapp.com
slash investors, we have kind of overview of the company.
So in that, we have over 600,000 Bitcoin accounts, Bitcoin savers.
And what that is is really a reflection of where we were many, many months ago.
And what we see today is just like we saw in 21 and 2021 where we have a new wave coming
in.
There's no doubt that more people are looking to save and acquire Bitcoin.
And you know, fold's going to be there.
And I think to your point earlier about the incumbents, do they have the ability to move
into this space?
You know, we have the innovators dilemma is in full force here.
Bitcoin is not going to be, you know, disproven for because these are the banks.
In fact, probably going to be even more true in their challenge to do anything about this.
And for us, it's really been just pure focus.
We've only focused on Bitcoin.
It's the only asset that can provide, reasonably provide a, a us to deliver on our central
mission to build the long-term savings and wealth of our customers.
There's no other asset that a digital asset or, or else that we feel accomplishes that.
And the vision is that full has a, has plenty of runway before these incumbents come in
in any meaningful way, but also the amount of and type of customers that we have coming
in, developing the relationship that we had here, being the one that's going to help them
get access to their next home, the one that helped them earn enough for a down payment
purely out of the rewards they earned on their Bitcoin.
For us, we're developing decades long relationships with our customers.
And these customers, because they've chosen to save in Bitcoin, whether they made that
decision today or they made that decision 10 years ago, this is the most valuable customer
base any financial institution could ever want because they're not only are they, uh,
uh, uh, have qualities, you know, typically they're 35 to 55.
They're just starting families.
They're just building either their own business or coming into larger, uh, incomes they have
over the, uh, much of their net worth is in Bitcoin.
These customers are just going to be requiring cranium level financial services that are only
going to exist at companies like fold.
And that relationship that we're starting by being a first mover, by being there with
them early, I think will be something that the other incumbents can't catch up to this.
The user base and the relationship in the brand we're creating today is going to put
us in a position where our customer base in 10 years from now, they're going to, their
needs are going to, you know, their, their savings and wealth will be 10, 100 X of what
it is today.
And that provides as a business incredible opportunity for us, um, uh, but also for our,
our customers, you know, we're going to know their needs better than the incumbents will
like they just aren't used to, they're used to customers whose wealth is debased every
year.
They're used to customers who are earning rewards who are debased every year.
The financial system exists on the idea of debasing your own customer and for in folds
of world, it's the exact opposite.
It's how can we build up and how can we accelerate that build for our customers?
And I think it's really that basic different approach, which is going to make it inevitable
that we are going to win.
It's such an interesting thing because obviously Bitcoin, the beauty of it, right, is that it
does not require trust in a third party, but there are a lot of things as you go about
your life where you realize, okay, I do need to trust in a third party for this, whether
that be, you know, for, we talked about loans earlier, you know, securing a loan for, uh,
for a home, something like that.
You do need to find a third party that you can supply some extra capital that you can
trust or trust a little bit.
And I, I just have to imagine that thinking of, I mean, thinking of myself also thinking
of other Bitcoiners, it's like, who am I going to trust if I want to get a, you know, a loan
against my Bitcoin?
Am I going to trust, you know, JPMorgan Chase, uh, you know, with J, Jamie Diamond, who has
consistently just ragged on Bitcoin, am I going to trust that guy?
Uh, or am I going to trust the company by Bitcoiners and for Bitcoiners?
It's like, it's a pretty easy calculus, I think for Bitcoiners, like if you have to
do some amount of trust, well, you're going to trust fellow Bitcoiners before you're going
to trust some fiat banker.
At least that's, that's my read on that.
And that's, that's, you know, right now, what, what do they have?
Well, they have a JPMorgan, great example, has a record of being around for a long time.
They're Lindy, right?
So to some extent they have developed that just built in people trust them.
But as the longer they wait to jump into this space, the more that the Bitcoin brands are
going to start to develop, not only that same long track record.
I mean, the fact that full, you know, uh, if you look at full, when we started 2019,
2020, I would look around and I would see about six or seven very well funded direct
competitors to us.
Those competitors in many ways were BlockFi, Voyager, FTX, Celsius, and a few, you know,
a few others that I'm, I'm generously leaving off the list don't exist anymore.
And why is that is because we've taken an approach to risk and to focus, but not only
put us in a position to survive, but thrives through this process.
And you know, we are going to continue to build and earn that trust, build that time,
that timeline as a financial services company that's, that will be here and that has been
here and that has been tested.
And I am very proud of the track record that we have today.
I'm proud of the other Bitcoin companies that, you know, I'm, you know, close with the other
founders who have managed this same journey.
And that, that, that advantage that the incumbents have about being just being around longer
will start to wane compared to as we build our own reputations alongside the fact of
our focus is to build your wealth, not to debase it.
And eventually customers are just going to look at that single fact, that value proposition,
and it's going to be abundantly clear about who they're going to align with.
And once that happens, that is when JP Morgan Chase decides to have a Bitcoin strategy.
That's when Jamie Diamond all of a sudden switches his tune and says, actually, you
know, yeah, okay, Bitcoin's not so bad.
Give us your Bitcoin.
Come on, bring it on in here.
Exactly.
Let us take care of it.
Yeah.
Now I'm, I'm curious too, because, you know, you have these incumbent players are, are
bigger there.
I mean, obviously they've been, they've been the behemoths, right?
The biggest bullies in the schoolyard for decades.
But at the same time, you guys are going to be a publicly traded company soon.
You're going to have different, different capital raising, you know, very like fiat
capital raising ways that you can go about acquiring more capital.
And I know you guys already have a Bitcoin treasury.
I think you've got, correct me if I'm wrong, over a thousand Bitcoin already in that treasure.
Is that correct?
Yeah.
So today full has a thousand that, that puts us out of the top 25 Bitcoin treasury in the
world, which is incredible.
And I think this, you know, we've seen this Bitcoin treasury strategy for private companies.
Obviously it works well for publicly traded companies.
There's an additional, additional kind of X factor there.
Sailor has proved that very well.
You've seen meta planet, similar scientific, a host of others now that are, you know, kind
of smaller names that have sort of jumped on board.
A lot of these were quote, zombie companies to use, I think Eric Semmler's words himself
you guys are, are not that you're coming into the, you know, the stock market now you're
going to be tradable for people.
You're going to be able to raise more capital.
I mean, is the goal with that to really be able to kind of use some of those fiat instruments
to go with that Sailor playbook to really kind of spin up the capital accumulation, but
by capital, I mean, you know, acquire fiat capital and then convert to Bitcoin capital.
Yeah.
I mean, short answer is, is, is yes.
Short answer is a fold has been a Bitcoin company with the express mission of building
the long-term savings and wealth of our customers through Bitcoin.
Us not doing that as a company ourselves is, is not practicing what we preach and would
be a very big gap.
And so full does always believe that having a Bitcoin treasury was important not only
because that is our business to help our customers and to be aligned with our customers, but we
also believe it is a, is a path to durability and sustainability for a business.
And so long before the Sailor playbook, there was just this idea of Bitcoin companies holding
Bitcoin treasuries because it was good for the business and good for your customers.
And we are definitely excited about the fact of what Sailor and the, the, the kind of others
have done by showing what you can do as a public market company.
So fold had really is first and foremost a, an operating company that builds the wealth
of its customers.
And as they build their wealth, we build our wealth.
So as folds, business lines, you know, throw off cash, we are able to direct those into,
into Bitcoin.
So we can accumulate Bitcoin very, very efficiently over the course of our business operations,
which is not true of any of the other kind of Bitcoin treasury companies.
At the same time, there is a playbook out there and we certainly intend to follow it.
We have seen just absolutely incredible, incredible demand for these types of relationships and
partnerships.
And so I think fold is going to both be something that's set apart because the business itself
generates Bitcoin.
At the same time, we are going to be able to take advantage of the tools that have really
allowed others to accelerate their Bitcoin treasury strategy.
So fold between the combination of those two, I think has a really strong story and a really
strong foundation to continue our trajectory.
You know, we're 1000 today, top 25.
I think it's a great, great idea for us to be a top 10.
I would love to see that.
I would love to see fold to be a top five.
And because of, again, like you said, of where we come from day one versus entering this
from a difference, you know, from a kind of an indirect way, I think also gives us certain
advantages in this space that will soon be borne out.
And you know, I'm excited very much to continue stocking Bitcoin at our treasury at the same
time of helping our customers do the same thing.
You guys are going public.
Is it a reverse SPAC?
Is that what the mechanism is for it?
So it is a SPAC.
It is run by one of the most successful SPAC sponsors out there.
Obviously SPACs have a checkered history, but Betsy Cohen, who is an absolute pioneer
and legend in the financial services space, she used pioneered internet banking at all.
She pioneered the idea of digital financial services on, you know, delivering them online.
Gold represents to her and we've had a great relationship she's dialed in that she gets
Bitcoin.
She, unlike Jamie Diamond, unlike those that took a while, she gets it.
And it's just from her career of understanding how financial services and money evolves with
technology.
And so it was a perfect match for us.
And we will be a public company over the next, you know, a very short term and we're excited
to be able to announce that.
And what's important to us though is that mission one is to build the wealth of our
customers.
And if we do that, we will build value for our shareholders through accumulating more
Bitcoin into our treasury.
If one, then two, and we're very clear that we're not just a company that's slapping
Bitcoin on it for a booster, we're a Bitcoin company from our principles and our ethics.
And we, we intend to bring a different approach to Wall Street in a way that reflects this
and things that you think about are, you know, you have the idea of the kind of fiat, quarterly
earnings hamster wheel.
In Bitcoin, we have this idea of a four year cycle and we bring this idea of a low time
preference, high time preference.
And so for us, it's very new for a company like us to enter public markets.
It's going to be turbulent.
It's going to be fun.
Things are going to take a while for the market to understand who we are or story, what Bitcoin
is, why we're different.
But ultimately, I think what we emerge out of that is an incredible story of long term
alignment with our customers who happen to be accumulating wealth faster than anyone
else in the world.
And as because of that fold and our customers are the most valuable thing to hit Wall Street
and then in the last decade.
And so I think it's going to be a change of from principles standpoint, but also from
business models.
So this is why I think we're getting a lot of interest in terms of partnership, in terms
of understanding what a roadmap is, how others can be helpful.
And I think it's a lot because the story is very different from the ground up.
And you can take, hey, it's kind of like a, it's kind of like a fintech in this way.
It's kind of like a Bitcoin equity in this way, kind of like a miner in this way.
And we kind of sit in our own lane.
And my favorite thing about that is we get to tell our own story.
It's going to take a while to tell that story.
But we're not here.
One good thing about having a hundred million or a thousand Bitcoin in our treasury is that
we get to take the time to tell that story.
Right.
We don't have to take fiat shortcuts to do things anymore.
I think that's kind of just a beautiful thing.
And I'm curious, I mean, because the way you talk and the way that you guys operate as
a company is obviously very different from the fiat mindset.
Like, yes, you're going to be going, you know, you'll be listed in the stock market.
Stock markets are not inherently bad by any means.
They've certainly gotten a bad rap because of all the shenanigans for lack of a better
word that goes on there because of all of the, you know, just insider abuses and things
like that.
But I mean, do you see like both from, you know, your own perspective, but then as other
Bitcoin companies start, you know, not just, and again, not just talking about like a zombie
company that's acquiring Bitcoin, but talking about Bitcoin companies like Fold, like others
coming up and becoming publicly traded companies, do you think there starts to be a larger kind
of perspective shift in the market where maybe, I mean, both people who are looking to purchase
equity in that company, but also just companies themselves start to take a little bit of a
look inward and say, you know, like there's a new standard, or is that just me being a
little bit of a, you know, naive dreamer, a Bitcoin or here?
No, I mean, it going back to the idea of like, there's a fundamental difference.
And what Bitcoin does, not just because you had the asset in your company, but because
you let Bitcoin express itself in, in the ways that it's bringing new things to the
world, you allow Bitcoin to show its alignment between the service provider and the, the
person taking advantage of the service.
If you let that breathe, you, you start to see crazy things start to happen.
And what you see on the stock market today is you have the likes of Apple or some of
the largest equities, any of the mag sevens out there who are flush with cash.
And what they need to do, they need every quarter, they need to burn a lot of that cash
to give the perspective to their equity holders that growth will come out of that from somewhere.
And so what that does is it's some, you know, sometimes it works in the best for the best
operators, it works just enough to keep them number one.
For everyone else, it really represents a terrible misallocation of capital.
People are just burning cap capital in the idea that they can create an aura of growth
for their company or take a Hail Mary long shot at something.
Now then on the other side of Michael Saylor said, wait, we're not going to spend money
on anything except Bitcoin.
And we're really not going to have a core business that has a future in many ways, at
least as it was, you know, in the original conception of, of micro strategy.
But their runway, their capital is expanding rapidly.
So instead of they're able to have their, their own shareholders say, I'm looking at
this company on a four decade horizon versus everyone else looking at other equities on
a quarterly horizon.
And if you're able to bridge that gap, a lot of different things happen, a different long
term alignment with companies start to happen that allows companies to truly invest in things
that are major growth opportunities for because you have the time to do it.
It's not like you need to go burn a billion dollars of cash and hope something happens
in, you know, in, in, in 90 days.
And if it doesn't go figure out the next shiny thing you're going to go burn money
on with, with Bitcoin and being a center part of a treasury and a business's sustainability
lets you think far more in much longer time horizon, which we don't really even know what
that's going to allow us to do and accomplish and be productive with.
We, I think we will see the results of that.
I think we can speculate on what that means because I think in various times in history,
we have had nations or companies that have been able to orient themselves to a much longer
time horizon.
And that's when we get truly beautiful things built and truly phase shifts happening in
business models and outcomes.
And we're going to get to see more of that.
At the same time, we don't have this horrible misallocation of capital, this ritual cash
burning that happens every 90 days.
I think it just, there's a lot, it's such a fundamental change that we're going to see
where it goes, but it's going to be big.
Do you think that some of the, you know, the mag seven types, the ones that are very much,
you know, like they have more cash than they know what to do with, they are the biggest
of the big.
They keep the whole stock market afloat.
Do you think they're going to be some of the last to kind of adopt a Bitcoin standard?
Or is there the chance for even a company like, let's say Facebook, which is still,
you know, founder led, founder with a massive stake in the company.
Is that maybe a possibility for one of those behemoths to get on a Bitcoin standard earlier?
How do you see that playing out in the larger context of these publicly traded companies?
I mean, I think we saw it just the other day when Tesla out of nowhere added another, I
don't know, 1800 Bitcoin to their balance sheet out of nowhere, right?
It wasn't like there wasn't some big thing about it.
They just, it just kind of happened.
And I don't think we're going to see like them flip into a Bitcoin standard.
That's far too jarring for any organization to do that comes from very, you know, fiat
origin origins.
Well, you are going to see is more of that happening.
It's kind of popping up here, there, and ultimately you're going to start having the analysts start
to kind of compare what happens as a result of this, which is going to create its own internal
competition.
Very much like we're seeing with the non mag seven long tail Bitcoin leverage Bitcoin
equities, all, you know, start to, you know, compete on bringing in 500 Bitcoin, bringing
in 1000 Bitcoin, bringing in 100,000 Bitcoin, you're going to start, you're going to see
that escalation.
You can go look at Sailor's own escalation in Bitcoin buying.
It looks like a hockey stick.
Like most of the buying in the last couple months, right?
But he's been doing it for years.
So I think you'll see it like that where it's gradually then suddenly it's going to happen
with these really isolated pops and these, oh, that's interesting.
You know, Microsoft, you know, bought 10,000 Bitcoin, you know, something like that.
And that's where it's going to start.
Where do you think we're at in this cycle, just in terms of, you know, I think there's
at least from what I've seen sentiment on social media, even just talking to, let's
say, Normie friends, my sense is that, you know, quote, retail isn't here yet.
But you guys are obviously, you see a different kind of side of that, that Bitcoin, that Bitcoin
buyer, you see some people are coming in from a different angle.
Do you think that we're still kind of waiting to see retail come in this cycle?
Are we right now at sort of just a consolidation phase and we're still, you know, things are
about to get kind of wild?
Or does this happen in a more orderly way?
How do you see this playing out over kind of, let's say the next couple of years?
So from our experience, when you look in the market generally in terms of, you know, you
can even go look at, you know, Coinbase's quarterly, Robin Hood's or Cash Apps and these others.
Retail, this retails here or not is driven entirely by very sharp emotional swings in
price.
And for us, what we see today is we definitely see retail is waking up.
But when people say retail is not here yet, what they're actually referring to are the
manias of 2017, 2021 of these all time high kickers that come through and exchanges are
seeing 100,000 signups happening every 10 minutes, you know, like that's the level of
meaning that's not where we are.
And largely a lot of the set, a lot of the activity is, you know, as we talked about
earlier is all happening at the brokerage ETF level.
And so you are seeing the retail mania happen just from brokerage accounts, just switching
over repositioning out of whatever max seven into some I bit or a retirement account and
do it like that's the retail mania we are seeing there.
It's silent because these are just investors kind of repositioning and we've seen the power
that that has had on how much Bitcoin these ETFs are relentlessly buying and even leverage
Bitcoin equity plays like micro strategy, how much retail is behind a lot of a lot of
their success.
And so we're looking at it from that perspective, we're seeing it happen in other areas.
And I would say it's almost at mania levels over there, but we are yet to see that mania
come in directly into spot Bitcoin coming in, where you see those huge blows off the
top.
Now, I think it's going to be different because a lot of the in previous cycles, the funnels
were these, you know, these Bitcoin exchanges, and everyone had to fit through those doors,
go through those KYC and everything like that.
And that squeezed a lot of demand and very concentrated sprays into this, which would
create violent upticks and from retail participation.
But because everyone already has a brokerage account, we're seeing it's very evenly happened
daily.
And it's just like that's the, just the buying the ETFs is just relentless.
And so that's the big story there.
The exits, the entrance ways are now much bigger than they were.
They're already existing.
People have already gone through that entrance.
You're not asking them to go through some new door they've never been through.
And so I think we're going to continue to see this because at a certain point, what is
happening now is we're exhausting the cell pressure from deeply long term folders who
are who are cycling out.
And once that funnel is done, once that is done, that's when you're going to get
an inevitable pop of supply that's going to happen.
And all entrances are going to be sought by everybody.
How do I earn Bitcoin on rewards?
How do I earn by convert my paycheck into Bitcoin?
How do I convert my retirement account into Bitcoin?
How do I convert some of my business treasury into Bitcoin?
And all of those doors, all of those products are here today.
Go back, you know, five years ago, most of those products weren't here today.
So you're just going to have a much broader absorption of a much larger tranche of capital.
And the only thing standing away of price appreciation at that point is really when
do the bears get exhausted?
When do the people who are selling out get exhausted?
And that day will come.
It's certainly going to be an interesting time coming up.
Speaking of time that will, I want to be conscious of yours.
I know it's a big day for you and you've got a lot on.
I want to maybe just if we can wrap up with one more thing.
So for folks who have been listening, I really appreciate your time also.
This was extremely enjoyable.
Go check out the credit card.
I'll put the link to sign up for the wait list in the show notes here.
People can go check it out.
But I think a great place to end is maybe just for somebody who is, you know, looking at
this and or maybe they're maybe they're a norm.
I guess, what is your pitch to somebody for why?
Why check out this fold credit card versus all the other options that they have out there?
Why is this the best for them for their future?
Yeah, I think, you know, everyone is busy.
We have our lives.
We have families.
We have behaviors.
We have schedules.
We have and it's understood that people aren't always up to speed on what I believe is the
biggest revolution facing people today or in many, many, many, many centuries.
And today we have one of those and that's Bitcoin.
It's actually fine that you may not totally understand everything about it.
At the same point, today you can get rid of an airline miles card that you've been carrying
in your pocket forever that every year without doubt is devaluing the points that you have
earned that at the same time is devaluing the service that they're giving to you.
And you can exchange that for something that cannot be debased.
That is yours gives you a passive way to earn.
And I think it's starting that journey is going to lead you to the understanding of
why Bitcoin is so important.
It's going to tell you about being able to self custody.
It's going to be tell you about scarcity.
It's going to teach you about fiat and you'll go through that learning process.
And so we don't all have time and this is one of the great things is because you can
simply adopt this product without putting any risk or capital on the line or any time
on the line and start that process.
And that process, the earlier you start it, the better position your family is going to
be.
If I wasn't sold already, I'd be sold again by that.
Will man, thank you so much.
I'll drop your your ex account in the show notes as well.
You got to get you on Noster, by the way, but I'll save that for another day when you're
not quite as busy.
I'll drop the link for the credit card for anyone who wants to sign up for the waitlist.
Really thank you so much for your time.
This was a blast chat with you.
We're going to have to do this again because I think you guys are going to have a lot.
You have a lot going on right now between the credit card waitlist, the launch upcoming.
Can you can you tell us anything just last thing that I promise I'll let you go timing
wise for when this will actually when people start being able to actually get off the waitlist
and start using this card.
Can you share that at all or roughly ballpark?
So there are several factors involved with this, but when we launched this waitlist,
we wanted the ability to reach as many people as possible to let them know about this and
get it to them as quickly as possible.
So for us, this is not a we'll see you next year.
This is not a see you six months.
This is something that we're intending to bring to people very quickly after they went
through the process of putting their name on the waitlist and starting.
So we wanted to give back to that in the meantime, there's over $200,000 worth of Bitcoin and
other prizes that we're just giving away to people who are climbing the list.
So for that, that's that's what we were going to give you for the patients you have.
But really this is right around the corner.
That is great to hear because I am sick of my airline miles.
So I'm super stoked about this product.
Will seriously, thank you so much for joining here today.
It was a pleasure to chat with you.
Congrats on the waitlist launch and I'm very much looking forward to the official launch.
Anything else you want to leave folks with or did we how'd we do?
I think we we covered we covered a lot.
We went and we will find ourselves at range places and let it roll.
I think that's exactly what happened.
All right, man.
Well, hey, thank you again for your time.
I appreciate it.
And yeah, looking forward to catching up hopefully in the flesh again soon.
Thank you, Walker.
Always a play.
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