1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,520
I've been doing this work for 10 years.

2
00:00:01,740 --> 00:00:07,500
My clients were frightened with fines of up to $25 million or 10% of your global revenue.

3
00:00:07,820 --> 00:00:10,220
Each client decided that they were going to fight back and I said,

4
00:00:10,340 --> 00:00:11,820
okay, I'm going to help you do that.

5
00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:12,880
They got the fight of a lifetime.

6
00:00:13,300 --> 00:00:16,460
You attempt this behavior, you attempt to touch an American,

7
00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,860
consequences, big consequences, immediate consequences, expensive consequences.

8
00:00:21,080 --> 00:00:25,040
The UK speech regime has not been favorable to free speech ever.

9
00:00:25,260 --> 00:00:26,340
They have not backed down.

10
00:00:26,460 --> 00:00:29,060
They continue to insist that their rules override the First Amendment.

11
00:00:29,060 --> 00:00:33,520
They will never attempt to enforce it here because they would lose immediately in a federal court.

12
00:00:33,660 --> 00:00:36,240
I feel like the term Orwellian is thrown out too much these days.

13
00:00:36,340 --> 00:00:38,700
It's talking about the UK, but that's just because it's so incredibly fitting.

14
00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,220
They said, well, it's age verification and it's content moderation.

15
00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:41,860
Okay, fine.

16
00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:42,420
Guess what?

17
00:00:42,500 --> 00:00:43,920
Everyone circumvents it with a VPN.

18
00:00:44,260 --> 00:00:48,040
Next up, now they've said, oh, well, now VPNs are going to have to do age verification.

19
00:00:48,380 --> 00:00:49,640
So there's an escalation ladder.

20
00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,920
And that's why we're fighting so hard to not let them get that first ratchet here in the United States

21
00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:55,520
because the optics are horrific.

22
00:00:59,060 --> 00:01:06,320
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs. My name is Walker and this is The Bitcoin Podcast.

23
00:01:06,860 --> 00:01:12,260
Bitcoin continues to create new blocks every 10 minutes. The value of one Bitcoin is still

24
00:01:12,260 --> 00:01:17,700
one Bitcoin. And if you're listening to this right now, remember, you are still early.

25
00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:22,600
If you're not already, go ahead and subscribe to this show wherever you're watching or listening

26
00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,860
and share it with your friends, family and strangers on the internet. If you want to

27
00:01:26,860 --> 00:01:31,100
follow me in the show on Noster and X, just head to the show notes to grab the links.

28
00:01:31,420 --> 00:01:36,080
If you're enjoying The Bitcoin Podcast and want to support it by becoming a paid subscriber,

29
00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,800
you can download the Fountain app, search for The Bitcoin Podcast,

30
00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:44,580
and subscribe by paying with Bitcoin via Lightning or fiat via card.

31
00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:46,960
Head to the show notes for product discount links,

32
00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:50,980
go to walkeramerica.substack.com to get episodes emailed to you,

33
00:01:51,140 --> 00:01:54,580
and head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else.

34
00:01:54,580 --> 00:01:58,220
Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk.

35
00:02:24,580 --> 00:02:26,540
looking forward to the days lengthening again.

36
00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,920
It's like, yeah, it's probably a good thing, though,

37
00:02:28,940 --> 00:02:31,700
that the night comes early because then you don't have to look at the gray

38
00:02:31,700 --> 00:02:33,200
of the wintertime as much.

39
00:02:33,260 --> 00:02:34,480
We're losing all our snow up here.

40
00:02:34,980 --> 00:02:37,920
So it's about to be gray season for a while.

41
00:02:38,060 --> 00:02:39,480
But, you know, it's the price we pay.

42
00:02:39,540 --> 00:02:42,540
Every time it gets to be spring, it's like you kind of have this Stockholm syndrome.

43
00:02:42,700 --> 00:02:44,860
You're like, well, the winter wasn't that bad, right?

44
00:02:44,860 --> 00:02:47,300
We still like it here, right?

45
00:02:47,540 --> 00:02:49,960
I would never want to live somewhere without the seasons.

46
00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:50,860
I love the seasons.

47
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:51,340
They're great.

48
00:02:51,420 --> 00:02:51,900
They're perfect.

49
00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,040
The lies we tell ourselves, you know.

50
00:02:54,580 --> 00:03:00,240
Exactly. It's reliving the trauma. Well, anyway, whether whether whether to one side, nice to be here.

51
00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:15,920
Yeah, good to have you. And, you know, so I've been I've been following the work you've been doing for a decent amount of time, more so recently, because I feel like you've maybe it's just been the me engaging with a lot of UK and EU people talking about free speech stuff.

52
00:03:15,920 --> 00:03:20,860
But you started getting really thrown to me in the old ex-algo a lot, which was I was happy about.

53
00:03:20,860 --> 00:03:24,040
And I started tracking a little bit closer in all of the work that you're doing.

54
00:03:24,260 --> 00:03:35,300
One of the things you're doing right now, you're representing 4chan basically against the U.K. government, which is just kind of a crazy, like a crazy series of words to put together in a sentence.

55
00:03:35,700 --> 00:03:38,560
Can you start us off with just a little bit of a background?

56
00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:46,600
Who are you and how did you get here today to be representing 4chan and others against these foreign regimes?

57
00:03:46,780 --> 00:03:47,960
How did this come to be?

58
00:03:47,960 --> 00:04:02,460
Yeah, so it started because I've been active in crypto since about 2013. And accordingly, any story that starts with, well, I was involved in crypto, naturally, the beginning point of that story is, you know, our story begins on the Isle of Yap.

59
00:04:02,460 --> 00:04:07,960
But moving slightly forward, I got involved in crypto in 2013.

60
00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:12,980
I was working as a lawyer in London and did one of the early enterprise blockchain startups.

61
00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:21,080
And what we did is we forked Ethereum PAK2 and we turned it into a permission chain, which everybody in crypto hated and thought was a bad idea.

62
00:04:21,500 --> 00:04:25,400
But the reason we did it was really it was almost like a kind of a proto version of Farcaster.

63
00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:32,200
And what we did is we built a version of Reddit on a blockchain back end using IPFS to store data.

64
00:04:32,460 --> 00:04:36,480
and we thought that we could turn that into an interesting logic engine and productize it for

65
00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:41,080
financial services and things like that. That didn't work out, right? So that was a bummer.

66
00:04:41,660 --> 00:04:46,580
But it led me into tech. And before that point, I had been a banking lawyer,

67
00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:52,140
and I pivoted into tech and became a technology lawyer. And as I started my own practice,

68
00:04:52,140 --> 00:04:58,720
I moved back to the United States in 2017, started my own practice in 2018. And there were a couple

69
00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:03,100
of companies in the U.S. at that time that really had difficulty obtaining legal representation

70
00:05:03,100 --> 00:05:09,400
because they were focused on free speech. In particular, they were focused on supplying a

71
00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:15,180
tech platform to American users that wouldn't censor or moderate their speech like a Twitter

72
00:05:15,180 --> 00:05:21,700
or a Facebook would, because during the sort of 2014 to 2020 period, most of the censorship that

73
00:05:21,700 --> 00:05:26,460
was happening on the global internet was happening on platforms like Facebook or Twitter or YouTube

74
00:05:26,460 --> 00:05:31,940
or Reddit as those platforms, you know, in 2015, it was anarchy on most of these platforms.

75
00:05:31,940 --> 00:05:35,320
But what happened was then that became a political concern in the United States.

76
00:05:35,780 --> 00:05:39,760
And so those platforms are responsive to political demands, primarily from the U.S.

77
00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:46,160
government, to be blunt, to censor their platforms and to reduce the scope of acceptable speech

78
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:46,920
on those platforms.

79
00:05:47,700 --> 00:05:52,120
Now, after President Trump was elected, there was some liberalization, not a lot.

80
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:59,880
But really, in 2022, there was a considerable amount of liberalization in the U.S. markets when Elon Musk purchased X.

81
00:06:00,060 --> 00:06:08,740
And then after President Trump was inaugurated again in 2025, we saw other platforms like Facebook starting to liberalize their content moderation policies as well.

82
00:06:08,740 --> 00:06:24,820
But one thing that had been running in parallel to that whole process was that the United States learned during the 2014 to sort of 2022-23 period that it was unable to censor the Internet in the manner it liked, particularly when the Democrats were in power.

83
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,480
They were unable to censor the Internet as they liked because the First Amendment prevented them from doing so.

84
00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:45,480
So what happened is that outside of the United States, political fellow travelers of the American left in places like the UK, the European Union or Australia developed their own Internet regulatory frameworks, which were designed to carry out through the back door with the U.S. government couldn't carry out through the front.

85
00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:55,500
Chiefly, the censorship of American platforms in order to comply with regulations in countries where censorship was permissible because the First Amendment doesn't exist.

86
00:06:55,500 --> 00:07:10,260
So during that period, I was representing targets of censorship in the United States against the American government in some cases, you know, with respect to their content moderation policies or congressional investigations and inquiries and things like that.

87
00:07:10,260 --> 00:07:13,740
So I've been doing this for a very long time, and it's been a side interest.

88
00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:19,420
About, I'd say, 80% of my practice has traditionally always been crypto, and about 20% of my practice

89
00:07:19,420 --> 00:07:23,820
has been social media, free speech, content moderation, trust and safety, law enforcement

90
00:07:23,820 --> 00:07:29,160
requests, and everything bundled up there for this handful of American platforms that

91
00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,820
tended to operate on the fringes in terms of what type of speech they permitted.

92
00:07:34,180 --> 00:07:39,560
Everything was lawful, but they allowed a wider range of lawful speech than there was

93
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:44,000
traditionally allowed traditionally allowed on a platform like a Facebook or a Twitter or Reddit

94
00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:50,400
or a Blue Sky or something like that. So in 2025, well, actually 2023, I had a phone call with the

95
00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,800
UK's home office because they were on the verge of enacting something called the Online Safety Act

96
00:07:54,800 --> 00:08:00,500
2023, which is the UK censorship law. And we had a very pleasant conversation with the guy who's a

97
00:08:00,500 --> 00:08:04,560
very senior guy in the home office. They've since given him a medal for being a good civil servant.

98
00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,940
He got an OBE, which is a member or an MBE or no, I think, no, he's an OBE.

99
00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:11,520
So he's an officer of the order of the British Empire.

100
00:08:12,540 --> 00:08:14,380
And so we had a nice conversation.

101
00:08:14,380 --> 00:08:18,260
And at the end of that conversation, the guy said, listen, let's get down to brass tacks here.

102
00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:24,160
Your clients operate these websites in the United States with free speech moderation rules.

103
00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,680
How are you planning to comply with our Online Safety Act?

104
00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:34,540
Right. So, you know, presumably your client's users will demand that they be censored by the British government.

105
00:08:34,680 --> 00:08:46,960
Of course, no user of any of these websites, to my knowledge, of tens of millions of monthly users, not a single one has ever written to my client and requested that the British government be allowed to censor that user or the information that user can see.

106
00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,880
I said to the guy, I was like, listen, you know, that's a really interesting question.

107
00:08:52,520 --> 00:09:00,600
And we'll be happy to have that conversation with you just as soon as the United Kingdom can land ground troops in the United States and seize the planet servers by force.

108
00:09:00,860 --> 00:09:03,800
Because we fought a war over this and you lost.

109
00:09:04,180 --> 00:09:10,000
So to be blunt, it's nice that you guys have this law, but you shouldn't really expect any compliance or obedience.

110
00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:14,940
Fast forward to 2025, the operative provisions of the law began entering into force.

111
00:09:14,940 --> 00:09:20,840
most of the larger internet majors have begun by this point implementing those rules,

112
00:09:21,420 --> 00:09:25,320
policies and procedures, technical measures that are required by the laws. But of course,

113
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,640
all the smaller American companies haven't. And what the UK decided to do is it decided to go

114
00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:34,140
after all of the smallest American firms that were non-compliant with the Online Safety Act

115
00:09:34,140 --> 00:09:39,400
and demand that they comply. And they went after four. The first one they went after was a mental

116
00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:44,520
health web forum called SASU. Second one was Gab. Third one was Kiwi Farms. And the fourth one was

117
00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:51,500
4chan in that order. And one by one, each platform refused to comply. And so one by one,

118
00:09:52,020 --> 00:09:58,080
they wound up finding me and they came on board, joined the roster as clients. I'm representing

119
00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:03,460
every single one of them pro bono. And a strategy had to be developed to fight the United Kingdom

120
00:10:03,460 --> 00:10:08,200
on this issue. And there are a couple of things you can do as a lawyer. One of them is you can

121
00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,260
have a litigation strategy. Another one is you can go and lobby the government. You can petition

122
00:10:12,260 --> 00:10:17,000
for redress of grievances. Another one is you can try publicity and media and various other things.

123
00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:22,040
And we decided to do all three at once. And so what happened was there was this very strange,

124
00:10:22,300 --> 00:10:27,380
unique convergence where circumstances plus the things that I happened to do

125
00:10:27,380 --> 00:10:32,520
met in the middle. And because no one else was willing to represent companies like this for the

126
00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:37,500
previous 10 years, I was the only person who knew how to do it and knew what the rules of the road

127
00:10:37,500 --> 00:10:42,280
were and what the landscape looked like. And so we developed a strategy to fight the UK. And that

128
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:47,860
strategy was to refuse the orders, publicize the refusal, communicate with the US government

129
00:10:47,860 --> 00:10:54,720
in order to push for executive action and law reform in the legislatures, and also to engage

130
00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:00,300
in strategic litigation against the UK to both impose real and actual costs for trying to get

131
00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:04,880
into the United States, and also to make them pay a political price for trying to get into the

132
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:10,240
United States, which they have now done, because Ofcom obviously was sued by my clients, 4chan and

133
00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,840
Kiwi Farms in the District of Columbia. That lawsuit's ongoing, and we can talk about that

134
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:18,820
in a moment. But yeah, so what we did is we started refusing the demands. 4chan came along,

135
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:24,580
and 4chan was non-responsive. They simply didn't respond to the UK when the UK reached out. And so

136
00:11:24,580 --> 00:11:29,300
the UK kept going through their procedure, where they would escalate and escalate, and the threats

137
00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:32,760
escalated. And they said, we're going to fine you, and we're going to jail you, and we're going to do

138
00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,680
this to you and you must respond and you must do this. There were some demands for, they're

139
00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:41,220
demanding internal records of the company and demanding that they produce this risk audit for

140
00:11:41,220 --> 00:11:47,700
explaining why, you know, or how they were going to comply with the UK's content censorship mandates

141
00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:51,840
when they were under no such obligation to do so. It's entirely an American operation.

142
00:11:52,540 --> 00:11:57,500
And we waited and then the UK issued this thing called a provisional fine decision. So they said,

143
00:11:57,500 --> 00:12:03,480
because you haven't responded to us, we've decided that we're going to fine you 20,000 pounds and you

144
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:08,180
have an opportunity to make representations. At that point, we broke cover. We released a public

145
00:12:08,180 --> 00:12:12,800
statement, which was very widely viewed on this was in August. And we said, Okay, UK, thanks for

146
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:18,360
your letters. We don't think your notices were validly served in the United States in accordance

147
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,560
with international service conventions. They just sent us emails. And we'll be seeing you in court

148
00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:27,380
in the District of Columbia. We'll be suing you in Washington, DC. On August 28, that's

149
00:12:27,380 --> 00:12:32,280
exactly what we did. We filed the complaint. They filed a motion to dismiss. We may or may not,

150
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:38,440
probably will, file an opposition to that motion to dismiss. And then in four to six months,

151
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,780
a judge will probably rule on the papers. That's my guess. And then the case will either be dismissed

152
00:12:42,780 --> 00:12:46,300
or it'll move on to its next stage. But in parallel to that, we've also been pushing,

153
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,140
we've been talking, not pushing. You don't really push the U.S. government to do anything.

154
00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:54,880
You talk to them, and if they move, they move. We've been talking to the Congress,

155
00:12:54,880 --> 00:13:00,360
And we've drafted legislation, which is apparently reportedly under consideration by the U.S. Congress.

156
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:06,720
And we've been making sure that the executive branch is also alert to what's going on with these censorship notices.

157
00:13:07,060 --> 00:13:18,380
And we learned just yesterday that the Trump administration has, in fact, put the UK-U.S. Technology Prosperity Partnership, a trade agreement, on hold because of their concerns over the Online Safety Act.

158
00:13:18,380 --> 00:13:27,660
They said it was specific to artificial intelligence development and how the UK wants to expand the scope of the OSA to cover AI and chatbots and things like that.

159
00:13:28,300 --> 00:13:45,560
But I think, you know, and I don't know what their internal thought process was, but we have supplied the American government with every bit of correspondence on this issue that the United Kingdom has sent that we've gotten our hands on or learned of in the last six months or actually in the last 11 months, to be blunt.

160
00:13:45,560 --> 00:14:00,226
So long story short there been a multi resistance being mounted against the UK Online Safety Act from myself my colleague Ron Coleman he another lawyer a solo practitioner He was counseled at the plaintiffs in the Supreme Court

161
00:14:00,226 --> 00:14:03,666
case, Mittal v. Tam, which went all the way up to the Supreme Court, and he won.

162
00:14:04,386 --> 00:14:08,166
And also a fellow named Colin Crossman, who's part of our universe, he's a Bitcoiner.

163
00:14:08,566 --> 00:14:13,106
He's the Deputy Secretary of State in Wyoming, and he took a law reform proposal called the

164
00:14:13,106 --> 00:14:17,566
Granite Act, which is a censorship shield law, and he actually turned it into a real bill,

165
00:14:17,566 --> 00:14:22,066
which has since been filed in Wyoming and is going to be published on the Wyoming legislature's

166
00:14:22,066 --> 00:14:25,886
website any day now. So where we are is, you know, this fight has been going on all year.

167
00:14:26,166 --> 00:14:30,126
A lot of people have noticed it's going on because you've now seen both, you know, not just the UK,

168
00:14:30,346 --> 00:14:36,946
also the EU has gotten involved. They issued X with a $40 million fine. Australia has gotten

169
00:14:36,946 --> 00:14:43,346
involved. They have banned any under 16 user from using a range of predominantly American platforms.

170
00:14:43,346 --> 00:14:48,706
and then those users now have gone to Chinese platforms because humans want to be free and

171
00:14:48,706 --> 00:14:51,166
they want to communicate and they want to exchange ideas with one another.

172
00:14:52,386 --> 00:14:53,766
We'll see what happens there.

173
00:14:54,166 --> 00:14:57,446
But essentially, all of these countries have been developing these censorship regimes for

174
00:14:57,446 --> 00:14:58,286
the last five years.

175
00:14:58,746 --> 00:15:01,086
All of them were scheduled to go live this year.

176
00:15:01,646 --> 00:15:06,426
They were expecting that the aggregate impact of all of these regimes going live is that

177
00:15:06,426 --> 00:15:10,766
the United States would, like it did with regimes like the EU GDPR for data protection,

178
00:15:11,266 --> 00:15:12,106
simply roll over.

179
00:15:12,106 --> 00:15:18,246
and would permit these foreign countries to dictate what they can and can't do on American servers.

180
00:15:18,246 --> 00:15:21,186
And what they got instead was they got the flight of a lifetime, right?

181
00:15:21,366 --> 00:15:25,226
Because the American targets, and these are tiny, tiny, tiny companies

182
00:15:25,226 --> 00:15:30,146
that really have no business fighting nation states under ordinary circumstances.

183
00:15:30,146 --> 00:15:34,226
But every single one of them looked at what was going on and they said the principle

184
00:15:34,226 --> 00:15:39,866
that American speech on American servers on American soil should not be violated by a foreign government

185
00:15:39,866 --> 00:15:46,766
is so important that we're willing to risk, right, our own personal safety. We're willing to take

186
00:15:46,766 --> 00:15:51,166
enormous corporate risks. We're willing to be blocked by these countries in order to hold the

187
00:15:51,166 --> 00:15:56,206
line and defend the principle. And the principle is that Americans don't take orders from anybody

188
00:15:56,206 --> 00:16:00,466
when it comes to protected speech, not from the president, not from Congress, not from a governor,

189
00:16:00,606 --> 00:16:05,246
not from a cop on the streets, and not from a foreign unelected bureaucrat. And that's where we

190
00:16:05,246 --> 00:16:11,586
are essentially, is we're now in the mid to early end game, I think, of phase one of that fight,

191
00:16:11,666 --> 00:16:16,366
which is that Europe made its opening moves. The United States has responded. Most of the large

192
00:16:16,366 --> 00:16:21,526
companies have grudgingly cooperated and complied with the foreign regimes. And a lot of them are

193
00:16:21,526 --> 00:16:25,586
watching to see what happens with the smaller companies and with the political response out

194
00:16:25,586 --> 00:16:30,326
of Washington to see if Washington is going to be able to get them out of this jam while they

195
00:16:30,326 --> 00:16:34,746
comply. So they're complying and we're fighting. And there are a lot of people rooting for us,

196
00:16:34,746 --> 00:16:39,406
for sure. But I think they're quite content for the little guys to take the hits while they wait

197
00:16:39,406 --> 00:16:45,426
for the eventual outcome. So that's where we are. Okay. First of all, a lot to unpack there.

198
00:16:46,346 --> 00:16:53,686
Maybe a good place to start with this is just to kind of set the stage for what some of these laws

199
00:16:53,686 --> 00:17:00,746
in the UK, in Australia, in the EU, what their, let's say, stated purpose is. Without getting

200
00:17:00,746 --> 00:17:05,826
into what we can we can get into what kind of the reality of them is, because a lot of them basically

201
00:17:05,826 --> 00:17:11,026
and correct me here if I'm wrong, but a lot of them are basically all given under the guise of

202
00:17:11,026 --> 00:17:15,586
protecting children. Right. Or, you know, we need to make sure that harmful content does not find

203
00:17:15,586 --> 00:17:19,306
its way in, you know, in front of children, which, OK, well, you know, it's like, how would you like

204
00:17:19,306 --> 00:17:24,846
this rap? Do you want to protect the children or, you know, anti-terrorism? Yeah, the classic.

205
00:17:25,706 --> 00:17:30,686
But I mean, is that basically the common thread with all of these different laws from the

206
00:17:30,686 --> 00:17:36,226
EU to the UK to Australia. It's basically like age verification requirements is a lot of it.

207
00:17:36,266 --> 00:17:41,546
And also like removing quote hate speech and things like that. Wish you could access cash

208
00:17:41,546 --> 00:17:46,746
without selling your Bitcoin? Ledin makes that possible. The global leader in Bitcoin backed

209
00:17:46,746 --> 00:17:53,686
lending, Ledin has issued over $10 billion in loans since 2018 and has a perfect record of

210
00:17:53,686 --> 00:17:59,426
protecting client assets. Why is a Ledin loan different? Well, with custodied loans, collateral

211
00:17:59,426 --> 00:18:05,806
is not lent out to generate interest. No credit checks, no monthly payments. Apply in minutes and

212
00:18:05,806 --> 00:18:12,706
repay whenever you want with zero penalties. And proof of reserves reports verified by a top

213
00:18:12,706 --> 00:18:19,106
accounting firm are published every six months. Ledin gives Bitcoin holders a secure, transparent

214
00:18:19,106 --> 00:18:30,206
way to unlock liquidity without selling. Learn more at leden.io slash walker. That's L-E-D-N dot

215
00:18:30,206 --> 00:18:38,946
I-O forward slash walker. Blockstream Jade Plus delivers robust security with fully open source

216
00:18:38,946 --> 00:18:44,766
hardware and software. Its unique genuine check feature ensures your device is authentic,

217
00:18:44,766 --> 00:18:50,806
giving you ultimate peace of mind. With versatile connectivity options, including Bluetooth,

218
00:18:51,106 --> 00:18:59,046
USB-C, built-in camera, and SD card, Jade Plus offers unparalleled flexibility in managing your

219
00:18:59,046 --> 00:19:05,246
Bitcoin. Whether you prefer wireless convenience or air-gapped security, Jade has you covered.

220
00:19:05,466 --> 00:19:11,406
Its innovative design features a durable metal case, a bright 1.9-inch color screen,

221
00:19:11,406 --> 00:19:17,686
and intuitive navigation buttons that make managing your Bitcoin straightforward and enjoyable.

222
00:19:17,926 --> 00:19:22,946
Jade Plus also supports secure, air-gapped transactions via QR code signing

223
00:19:22,946 --> 00:19:28,406
using the Jade Link storage device, keeping your Bitcoin safe without compromising convenience.

224
00:19:29,206 --> 00:19:33,706
Visit store.blockstream.com and use my coupon code WALKER

225
00:19:33,706 --> 00:19:38,766
for an exclusive 10% discount on your Blockstream Jade Plus.

226
00:19:38,766 --> 00:19:42,646
Protect your Bitcoin, sleep better, stack harder.

227
00:19:43,086 --> 00:19:48,126
If you're hodling Bitcoin personally or for a business, here's the uncomfortable truth.

228
00:19:48,566 --> 00:19:50,546
You probably don't have insurance.

229
00:19:51,066 --> 00:19:56,486
Most policies exclude Bitcoin, and the ones that don't, they only pay you back in fiat.

230
00:19:57,026 --> 00:20:00,806
What's the point of that if you need to claim a loss when number go up?

231
00:20:01,146 --> 00:20:03,786
That's not insurance, that's liquidation.

232
00:20:04,166 --> 00:20:07,266
Now there's another option, BDIC.

233
00:20:07,266 --> 00:20:11,526
They're building an insurance marketplace on the Bitcoin standard.

234
00:20:11,906 --> 00:20:14,586
One Bitcoin lost equals one Bitcoin paid.

235
00:20:15,006 --> 00:20:22,226
They've integrated with Liana Business for enterprise self-custody with personal wallet coverage options coming later this year.

236
00:20:22,226 --> 00:20:32,166
If you care about protecting your Bitcoin as Bitcoin, sign up for the waitlist at bdic.io.

237
00:20:32,166 --> 00:20:42,566
slash Walker. That's B-D-I-C dot I-O slash Walker. Insurance on the Bitcoin standard.

238
00:20:43,326 --> 00:20:47,546
Yeah. So I think that's how it's usually sold, right? But if you actually adjust it off and you

239
00:20:47,546 --> 00:20:53,426
look at the underlying philosophical justification for what they're doing, it is that they believe

240
00:20:53,426 --> 00:20:59,306
that online providers or providers of online services should be able to be coerced, right,

241
00:20:59,306 --> 00:21:08,346
or compelled or recruited or whatever language you want to use conscripted to comply with certain

242
00:21:08,346 --> 00:21:13,946
duties which make the internet a better experience for their users. And they also believe that the

243
00:21:13,946 --> 00:21:19,026
government has the right, excuse me, sorry, I'm just going to turn that off. Something's buzzing.

244
00:21:19,706 --> 00:21:24,286
They also have, they think that the government has the right to, my phone is, let me turn that

245
00:21:24,286 --> 00:21:28,766
on silent. They think the government should have the right to dictate what that is. And in the

246
00:21:28,766 --> 00:21:32,826
United States, that's not how we do things, right? The government does not have the power to rejigger

247
00:21:32,826 --> 00:21:38,986
the marketplace of ideas in order to ensure that the right ideas are heard and the wrong ideas are

248
00:21:38,986 --> 00:21:44,566
not. So essentially, the Europeans don't subscribe to this view. And in their opinion, you know,

249
00:21:44,586 --> 00:21:48,946
they say, listen, we have the right, we have the power to change the shape of the internet and

250
00:21:48,946 --> 00:21:53,426
change the shape of the marketplace of ideas. And if you don't do that, if you don't change that

251
00:21:53,426 --> 00:21:58,466
marketplace of ideas or don't change the access controls to the internet in such a way that we

252
00:21:58,466 --> 00:22:05,066
deem is required, then what we will do is we will issue you with massive fines. We will issue you

253
00:22:05,066 --> 00:22:08,626
with threats of arrest and even threats of imprisonment. And they've done that in writing,

254
00:22:08,826 --> 00:22:13,226
right, to all of my American clients, which you can imagine, right, in the UK, they do this all

255
00:22:13,226 --> 00:22:18,286
the time, right? So they have a thing called the television license that you have to buy every year

256
00:22:18,286 --> 00:22:23,746
if you want to have a TV in your house, because that fee, the license fee, funds the British

257
00:22:23,746 --> 00:22:30,526
Broadcasting Corporation. And so the TV license, if you read one of those letters, it says failure

258
00:22:30,526 --> 00:22:35,346
to pay this fee, failure to adhere to this license is a criminal offense. So in the United States,

259
00:22:35,346 --> 00:22:38,686
you don't get letters from the government telling you do this or it's a criminal offense, right?

260
00:22:39,066 --> 00:22:43,586
The rule we operate is ignorantia juris non excusat, right? Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

261
00:22:43,946 --> 00:22:47,186
You're supposed to know what's going on and the government doesn't run around threatening you with

262
00:22:47,186 --> 00:22:52,266
fines and imprisonment as a routine matter. But in the UK, that's not the case.

263
00:22:52,706 --> 00:22:54,526
So they tried to roll that model out to us.

264
00:22:54,706 --> 00:22:57,046
They thought it was going to be big and scary and other things.

265
00:22:57,206 --> 00:22:58,666
I've been doing this work for 10 years.

266
00:22:58,886 --> 00:23:01,106
My clients were frightened by this, for sure.

267
00:23:01,766 --> 00:23:06,466
But after a couple of conversations, we determined, well, do you plan on flying to the UK anytime soon?

268
00:23:06,706 --> 00:23:07,006
No.

269
00:23:07,446 --> 00:23:07,766
Okay.

270
00:23:07,966 --> 00:23:09,026
Well, that settles it.

271
00:23:09,026 --> 00:23:12,566
The First Amendment protects you from this kind of foreign intrusion.

272
00:23:13,206 --> 00:23:17,366
And we decided collectively, each client decided that they were going to fight back.

273
00:23:17,406 --> 00:23:19,326
And I said, okay, I'm going to help you do that.

274
00:23:19,326 --> 00:23:44,486
So the regimes are essentially the imposition of duties on content hosts, right, of user-generated content to explain their content moderation decisions, produce audits about their content moderation decisions, to remove content which is illegal in the United Kingdom, which includes broad swathes of content that is constitutionally protected in the United States because they don't have the First Amendment over there,

275
00:23:44,486 --> 00:23:51,386
and to threaten people with fines of up to $25 million or 10% of your global revenue,

276
00:23:51,806 --> 00:23:56,846
if you don't comply with any of these rules, or arrest and a term of up to six months for

277
00:23:56,846 --> 00:24:00,646
noncompliance and just refusal to comply, or potentially up to two years if you send a

278
00:24:00,646 --> 00:24:04,926
misleading response. So they've wheeled out everything. They wheeled out all the big guns,

279
00:24:05,046 --> 00:24:09,546
lots of threats, big numbers in the four American talks. And we haven't, not to my knowledge,

280
00:24:09,546 --> 00:24:13,406
there hasn't really been any new inbound to the United States in a while. So I think we may have

281
00:24:13,406 --> 00:24:17,666
slowed them down, although we certainly haven't stopped them. But they were sending these

282
00:24:17,666 --> 00:24:21,326
communications in, we received them, my clients refused them, we sent them to the government.

283
00:24:21,946 --> 00:24:27,266
And that's been going on now for 11 months without, you know, uninterrupted.

284
00:24:29,006 --> 00:24:36,566
I mean, it's just wild, because I think, like, ultimately, this is sort of a new frontier in

285
00:24:36,566 --> 00:24:41,346
many ways, right? Before the internet, before the global connectivity of the world, things were a

286
00:24:41,346 --> 00:24:46,046
little bit easier to figure out, right? If you were doing something within a country, it's like

287
00:24:46,046 --> 00:24:50,286
you're bound by that country's laws, right? But now we're in this era where, well, no, we're in a

288
00:24:50,286 --> 00:24:55,086
globally connected world. The internet is global. I mean, granted, you can be shut off from it in

289
00:24:55,086 --> 00:24:59,666
places like, you know, North Korea or different governments can have different restrictions on the

290
00:24:59,666 --> 00:25:04,346
free and open internet to varying degrees. But what I think is really interesting here is that

291
00:25:04,346 --> 00:25:09,826
they're basically saying, because the UK government could, or the, you know, the European

292
00:25:09,826 --> 00:25:15,806
Union or the Australian government, any of these governments could independently go in and just

293
00:25:15,806 --> 00:25:20,926
block their citizens access to these sites, right? They could go in there and block it and then say,

294
00:25:20,926 --> 00:25:24,426
look, okay, we blocked it. You can't access the site because they don't follow our rules.

295
00:25:24,586 --> 00:25:29,346
But it seems that that's not something they ultimately want to do. They'd rather have the

296
00:25:29,346 --> 00:25:35,906
platforms basically self-censor. Is that correct? I think so. The whole way that the Online Safety

297
00:25:35,906 --> 00:25:39,746
act is structured, relies on the conscription of the platform to carry out the censorship.

298
00:25:40,306 --> 00:25:44,466
And I think the reason they do that is because it absolves the government of responsibility,

299
00:25:44,786 --> 00:25:48,366
liability, and blame for carrying out that censorship, although it's certainly within

300
00:25:48,366 --> 00:25:54,066
their power to do that within their borders. The problem that the internet has created,

301
00:25:54,486 --> 00:25:59,146
that all of these foreign laws are designed to fix, is that websites which are hosted and

302
00:25:59,146 --> 00:26:03,646
operated in the United States are serving content and communicating with people outside of the

303
00:26:03,646 --> 00:26:08,286
United States. And there are two competing theories as to how that conduct should be regulated.

304
00:26:08,746 --> 00:26:12,826
Under American legal theory, it's that the law of the server, the law of the web server,

305
00:26:12,926 --> 00:26:16,166
is the law of the website. If you're operating in the United States, you're running a server in the

306
00:26:16,166 --> 00:26:19,526
United States, you're running a business out of the United States, you're subject to U.S. law.

307
00:26:20,026 --> 00:26:23,906
The United Kingdom's approach is different. They say, well, we have a new legal theory,

308
00:26:23,906 --> 00:26:29,166
which is that if the website is accessible in the United Kingdom, then magically your website

309
00:26:29,166 --> 00:26:32,946
is going to be regulated by our laws, which of course is something that is within their power to

310
00:26:32,946 --> 00:26:38,826
do within their own borders. The question is, does that model port across to the United States as

311
00:26:38,826 --> 00:26:45,526
well? And what has happened is that the UK has tried to project its sovereign authority into

312
00:26:45,526 --> 00:26:51,406
America's sovereign domain by saying that your American conduct, American citizens, American

313
00:26:51,406 --> 00:26:55,906
servers, American soil is something we have the power to control. And that's not something that

314
00:26:55,906 --> 00:27:00,586
the United States is very happy about. So essentially, we've been muddling through for

315
00:27:00,586 --> 00:27:04,846
the last 20, 30 years, 40, 50 years of the internet, depending on how you measure its

316
00:27:04,846 --> 00:27:05,306
start point.

317
00:27:05,746 --> 00:27:09,746
But we've been muddling through, and the traditional approach has been where the people are and

318
00:27:09,746 --> 00:27:14,546
where the machines are is where the regulation is for this particular machine, device, anything

319
00:27:14,546 --> 00:27:14,826
else.

320
00:27:14,866 --> 00:27:18,346
And if you're operating this machine in the United States, then that's it.

321
00:27:18,406 --> 00:27:22,346
It's American law, which is relevant because we're not too interested here in the United

322
00:27:22,346 --> 00:27:22,686
States.

323
00:27:22,906 --> 00:27:25,966
If you've got a search warrant over in London, you're going to have to go domesticate it

324
00:27:25,966 --> 00:27:29,186
here in the US if you want to get access to that web server, et cetera, et cetera, et

325
00:27:29,186 --> 00:27:29,346
cetera.

326
00:27:29,346 --> 00:27:56,512
So the Europeans the Australians and the Brits decided that they were going to try to rewrite the rules They did Most big global corporations did their best to comply with the European rules comply with the British rules at the same time as they offer their American users a different experience But smaller websites can do that because they don have huge compliance departments They don have massive legal teams And asking 4chan which is fundamentally an anonymous website

327
00:27:57,032 --> 00:28:00,572
to implement age verification, dox all your users, make them create accounts,

328
00:28:01,052 --> 00:28:06,612
and only then can they post would destroy the website. And the conduct that 4chan enables,

329
00:28:06,792 --> 00:28:10,112
anonymous speech, is constitutionally protected in the United States.

330
00:28:10,112 --> 00:28:28,292
So what has happened is the rest of the world built a regime. The regime was dependent on the Americans not asserting their rights or responding or the United States not responding to the encroachment on its sovereign territory, which I think is going to happen. And I think it's going to happen a lot sooner than most people think.

331
00:28:28,952 --> 00:28:32,872
And they walked into it and they said, OK, this is how it's going to go.

332
00:28:33,252 --> 00:28:34,532
They expected everyone to comply.

333
00:28:34,692 --> 00:28:36,052
The compliance was not forthcoming.

334
00:28:36,272 --> 00:28:40,012
And now they have a big problem on their hands because it's become a massive bilateral trade

335
00:28:40,012 --> 00:28:41,152
issue with the United States.

336
00:28:42,012 --> 00:28:45,992
And moreover, right, they're being humiliated politically because every time they issue

337
00:28:45,992 --> 00:28:49,192
one of these fines on an American company, the American company says, OK, come over here

338
00:28:49,192 --> 00:28:50,152
and try to take it from us.

339
00:28:50,512 --> 00:28:52,472
If you think you're going to fine us, OK, come and get it.

340
00:28:53,092 --> 00:28:57,052
And of course, they can't because of American legal doctrine around the First Amendment.

341
00:28:57,052 --> 00:29:14,672
So that's how this arose and what the problem is, is that the Europeans and the Australians and the Brits invented out of whole cloth an entirely new legal doctrine around where a website operates based on who is viewing the website rather than where the website is actually based and operated from.

342
00:29:14,672 --> 00:29:29,912
And that fundamentally conflicts with the way that the Americans understand our, you know, our the way that our legal system works and the way that that international committee between nations works and the way the jurisdiction works, which is that if a website is operating within your borders, then it's subject to your rules.

343
00:29:29,912 --> 00:29:43,492
I mean, it's all just quite, I feel like the term Orwellian is thrown out too much these days to talk about the EU, but that's just because it's so incredibly fitting these days.

344
00:29:43,492 --> 00:29:57,132
I mean, all of these surveillance measures, all of these speech laws, the idea of people, I mean, and I've seen varying statistics on it, but it seems pretty clear that a large, large number of people are getting arrested for social media posts, essentially.

345
00:29:57,132 --> 00:30:01,852
And not even for ones where there's, you know, in the U.S., obviously there are certain limits to it.

346
00:30:01,892 --> 00:30:08,912
Like you can't make a and you can probably give the exact legal jargon for this, but it's like can't make a specific direct targeted threat to an individual person.

347
00:30:10,012 --> 00:30:11,772
And that's basically like you can't.

348
00:30:11,812 --> 00:30:14,592
In the U.S., yeah, the U.S. is not a free for all when it comes to free speech.

349
00:30:14,812 --> 00:30:14,932
Right.

350
00:30:15,032 --> 00:30:18,112
So you can't do something called direct incitement to commit a crime.

351
00:30:18,252 --> 00:30:19,732
You can't conspire to commit a crime.

352
00:30:19,852 --> 00:30:21,992
You can't make a true threat to somebody.

353
00:30:22,152 --> 00:30:24,732
You know, I'm going to go over to your house and do X at Y time.

354
00:30:24,992 --> 00:30:26,092
That's not something that's allowed.

355
00:30:26,092 --> 00:30:38,232
And so we have guardrails, right? We have limits on what's allowed. The difference is that in the European Union, the nonviolent expression of controversial ideas is also, in many cases, not permitted.

356
00:30:38,232 --> 00:30:49,032
So if you have the wrong idea, if you have the wrong opinion, if you express it in terms which are two cores, the United Kingdom, for example, has something called Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003.

357
00:30:49,612 --> 00:30:57,112
And Section 127 bans the uttering or production or publication of a grossly offensive communication.

358
00:30:57,712 --> 00:30:59,212
Right. So grossly offensive.

359
00:30:59,712 --> 00:31:01,372
Grossly. Imagine what that can cover.

360
00:31:01,372 --> 00:31:08,112
Right. Or, you know, it's it's or abuse or insult or insult in public is something which is covered by the Public Order Act.

361
00:31:08,112 --> 00:31:12,052
1986. So if you walk up to me and you're like, hey, you know what, you could afford to lose 10

362
00:31:12,052 --> 00:31:17,112
pounds fat, so you eat too much pizza, then you've committed an offense, you've committed a crime,

363
00:31:17,252 --> 00:31:21,912
if the person on the other end reports it. So they have a very restrictive speech regime,

364
00:31:21,912 --> 00:31:27,852
they're trying to port that speech regime online, through this particular law, the Online Safety

365
00:31:27,852 --> 00:31:33,052
Act in the UK, by saying to the Americans who have all of these websites, listen, our speech codes,

366
00:31:33,112 --> 00:31:38,092
and what we define as illegal, now must be removed from your website, which is based in the United

367
00:31:38,092 --> 00:31:42,732
States. And moreover, you will have to also do things like age verification and confirm that

368
00:31:42,732 --> 00:31:50,172
non-UK users aren't using your site or that users under the age of 18 aren't using your site

369
00:31:50,172 --> 00:31:54,252
and things like that. And that's just like, that's not constitutionally permissible here

370
00:31:54,252 --> 00:31:57,372
in the United States because you don't need a permission slip and you don't need to present

371
00:31:57,372 --> 00:32:02,512
your government ID and you don't need to explain your reasons for wanting to access the marketplace

372
00:32:02,512 --> 00:32:07,572
of ideas. So that's what this is, right? You've got these very alien speech regimes and the UK

373
00:32:07,572 --> 00:32:14,072
speech regime has not been favorable to free speech ever, right? Not in my lifetime. And

374
00:32:14,072 --> 00:32:16,992
certainly, and probably not in the lifetime before that or the lifetime before that.

375
00:32:17,332 --> 00:32:22,172
But at least 50 or 60 years ago, it was used much more sparingly in the United Kingdom than it is

376
00:32:22,172 --> 00:32:27,052
now when now you have a thousand people arrested every single month for these minor offensive

377
00:32:27,052 --> 00:32:33,312
speech crimes that are committed every day on social networks and things like that. And they

378
00:32:33,312 --> 00:32:39,892
want the whole world to be subject to that regime as long as a UK user can access the server in

379
00:32:39,892 --> 00:32:46,292
question. And our position is no, that's all well and good for you, UK, but that's not going to work

380
00:32:46,292 --> 00:32:51,232
for us because we're not in the UK and we fought a war of independence with your country. And they

381
00:32:51,232 --> 00:32:57,812
have been completely unable to understand. I'm not sure whether it's an inability to understand

382
00:32:57,812 --> 00:33:02,752
or an unwillingness to understand the American position. They have not backed down. They continue

383
00:33:02,752 --> 00:33:06,072
to insist that their rules are of global application. They continue to insist that

384
00:33:06,072 --> 00:33:10,332
their rules override the First Amendment. Legal reality on the ground in the United States,

385
00:33:10,432 --> 00:33:14,512
they will never attempt to enforce it here because they would lose immediately in a federal court.

386
00:33:15,072 --> 00:33:20,432
But everything that they've done, they have not demonstrated any willingness to accommodate the

387
00:33:20,432 --> 00:33:24,692
United States on this particular issue. And I'm getting the sense that the United States is pretty

388
00:33:24,692 --> 00:33:29,012
sick of that because we don't want our internet sector to be run in accordance with British rules.

389
00:33:29,012 --> 00:33:35,752
understandably so i mean it's like you said it's a come and take it you know you you want it come

390
00:33:35,752 --> 00:33:43,152
and take it uh molan labe or molan labe never sure the b is pronounced like a b molan labe there we

391
00:33:43,152 --> 00:33:48,152
go see i i had a feeling you'd be able to get it get it correct there okay so this is i mean just

392
00:33:48,152 --> 00:33:54,652
patently insane i think that first of all like it's one thing for uh the united kingdom european

393
00:33:54,652 --> 00:34:02,112
Union, Australia, whoever else to apply these insanely just anti-freedom speech laws in their

394
00:34:02,112 --> 00:34:07,352
own countries. Okay, fine. You know what, like, I may not agree with it, but I don't live over there.

395
00:34:07,692 --> 00:34:11,472
You know, kind of like not my problem. You guys want to, you know, send yourself into a totalitarian

396
00:34:11,472 --> 00:34:15,792
hellscape. Be my guest. We'll still be here in America. Yep. But the fact that they believe that

397
00:34:15,792 --> 00:34:20,152
they have any sort of jurisdiction in the United States, and this is where things get really

398
00:34:20,152 --> 00:34:24,532
interesting, because obviously they can say, and this is basically the argument that I've seen from

399
00:34:24,532 --> 00:34:29,132
all the EU bureaucrats when it came to the the fines against X and Elon Musk was, look,

400
00:34:29,572 --> 00:34:33,832
you want to do business in our countries, you've got to abide by our laws. And I did recently,

401
00:34:34,152 --> 00:34:39,732
I recently saw I just got a privacy notification from X. Maybe it was it was yesterday. Let me see

402
00:34:39,732 --> 00:34:45,432
if I can bring it up. But it was essentially saying, I'll find the exact text of it, but that

403
00:34:45,432 --> 00:34:54,012
in the for EU and UK users, some content may be may be taken down, like maybe restricted. And so I

404
00:34:54,012 --> 00:34:55,032
It was, oh, here it is.

405
00:34:55,092 --> 00:34:56,912
It's our enforcement provisions.

406
00:34:57,072 --> 00:35:08,432
We've updated our terms to explain that in some places, for example, the EU and UK, we may need to remove not only illegal content, but also content considered harmful or unsafe under local laws.

407
00:35:09,072 --> 00:35:13,872
Have you looked into this recent privacy terms update from Exital?

408
00:35:13,872 --> 00:35:19,392
Is that like, is that Elon kind of quietly bending the knee a little bit or is there something else at play here that I'm missing?

409
00:35:19,972 --> 00:35:20,412
I don't think so.

410
00:35:20,412 --> 00:35:31,892
So I think that's Elon quietly letting all of the ex-users know that this is going on and that he's under pressure from the British government and the European to remove content that they disapprove of, which isn't necessarily illegal in their jurisdiction.

411
00:35:32,372 --> 00:35:44,692
So, for example, there's a lot of content that you'll see on X, which is posted by, for example, posted by an American citizen, which if you try to view it in the UK, you're not going to be able to because it's illegal there, but it's not illegal in the United States.

412
00:35:44,692 --> 00:36:05,572
And so there, the obligation in the UK, they don't have a legal but harmful content removal mandate there. It has to be illegal there. The problem is what is illegal is so broadly defined that there's a range of speech, which in the United States is the kind of stuff people would just talk about down at the pub, right, or down at the bar with your buddies that could wind up leading to criminal sanctions.

413
00:36:05,572 --> 00:36:22,572
So in order to cover itself, X has to widen the net of the types of speech which are visible in the United Kingdom, both, you know, in terms of particular content, which is deemed harmful to children, needs to be age gated. And then if it's deemed mature for whatever reason, or politically controversial or something like that.

414
00:36:22,572 --> 00:36:34,592
And then in addition to that, they have content which is illegal per se, right, because the United Kingdom has this broad net of rules, unlike we do, criminalizing all kinds of normal speech.

415
00:36:34,852 --> 00:36:39,592
And there they just have to remove it or block access to it or something else under the Online Safety Act.

416
00:36:39,692 --> 00:36:42,392
So that is X communicating to its users.

417
00:36:42,392 --> 00:36:49,052
Listen, your user experience, excuse me, is being adversely affected by these rules, right, letting everybody know.

418
00:36:49,052 --> 00:36:56,432
we are required to remove this stuff because of the regulations in these countries. We're not

419
00:36:56,432 --> 00:37:00,532
doing it because we want to or because we have a choice. We're doing it because we're being

420
00:37:00,532 --> 00:37:06,832
ordered to because a duty has been imposed on us by those countries to do so. So that's, I think,

421
00:37:06,832 --> 00:37:14,952
what that is. I mean, that makes sense. And I think it's, again, just quite interesting seeing

422
00:37:14,952 --> 00:37:21,712
this sort of power struggle lay out right now. Because again, it's clear that these governments

423
00:37:21,712 --> 00:37:25,772
don't want to be viewed as the bad guys, right? They want to say, look, we just have the laws and

424
00:37:25,772 --> 00:37:28,792
these platforms, if they want to operate here, it's just that that's what they need to do.

425
00:37:29,012 --> 00:37:33,012
They don't want to block those platforms. They don't want to be the bad guy.

426
00:37:33,792 --> 00:37:38,852
Because it looks terrible. Because then once you block a platform under the Online Safety Act,

427
00:37:38,952 --> 00:37:42,452
it's very clear that it's no, they should have, they could have blocked 4chan a while ago,

428
00:37:42,452 --> 00:37:47,612
They haven't done it because the optics are horrific because then it's no longer the Online Safety Act.

429
00:37:47,712 --> 00:37:53,612
Then it's the Online Censorship Act, and it forces them to carry out the act of censorship that they want to avoid doing.

430
00:37:53,772 --> 00:38:04,192
It is within all of – these governments have the absolute power, if they wish, to go talk to every single ISP in their country and say, listen, here's an updated list of URLs that we've banned.

431
00:38:04,312 --> 00:38:06,832
And it would actually be trivially easy for them to implement that.

432
00:38:06,832 --> 00:38:11,512
but they don't do that because that would be politically unpopular because it would be a

433
00:38:11,512 --> 00:38:16,092
government agency directly engaging in censorship of the British people and government agencies are

434
00:38:16,092 --> 00:38:18,892
not supposed to do that. So what they've done instead is they've said, listen, here's an

435
00:38:18,892 --> 00:38:23,232
outline set of guidelines for you to follow and here's the kind of stuff we disapprove of.

436
00:38:23,232 --> 00:38:26,972
And we know that every company is going to implement it differently and everything else,

437
00:38:27,072 --> 00:38:32,012
but ideally there's enough compliance that we get enough of the speech off and we suppress enough

438
00:38:32,012 --> 00:38:38,332
of the ideas we dislike, that we'll have an internet environment which is sanitary enough

439
00:38:38,332 --> 00:38:44,052
for us to accept politically, but also is separated enough from the government in order

440
00:38:44,052 --> 00:38:46,332
for the government to absolve itself of blame.

441
00:38:46,472 --> 00:38:49,352
And they also put in self-contradictory provisions in there.

442
00:38:49,432 --> 00:38:54,132
So there's one provision of the Online Safety Act, which says that platforms in exercising

443
00:38:54,132 --> 00:39:00,252
their functions and in exercising their duties to suppress free speech must also have regard

444
00:39:00,252 --> 00:39:03,372
for British users' free speech rights while they do so, right?

445
00:39:03,772 --> 00:39:06,312
And so if you say, okay, and they point to that all the time,

446
00:39:06,372 --> 00:39:09,252
like, well, look, the Online Safety Act says you have to protect free speech.

447
00:39:09,732 --> 00:39:11,472
Okay, well, I'm a free speech lawyer.

448
00:39:11,572 --> 00:39:13,092
Let's go through what that means.

449
00:39:13,652 --> 00:39:18,992
Does a platform in the United Kingdom have an obligation to carry speech disagrees with?

450
00:39:19,112 --> 00:39:19,712
Answer, no.

451
00:39:19,772 --> 00:39:21,912
There's no obligation for a private platform to do that.

452
00:39:21,912 --> 00:39:27,712
Okay, so technically reading that language as it is read

453
00:39:27,712 --> 00:39:29,672
and as it would be understood by a judge,

454
00:39:30,112 --> 00:39:35,172
They must have regard for British users' free speech rights, but there is no free speech right to force a platform to platform you.

455
00:39:35,672 --> 00:39:46,692
So there's not – so it's this meaningless fluff that they put in there in order to defend their censorship regime by saying, but look, we have this one clause that doesn't mean anything that says free speech in it.

456
00:39:46,692 --> 00:39:50,152
And we use the term free speech 45 times in the statute.

457
00:39:50,312 --> 00:39:55,372
But if you then ask, OK, well, fine, you can use the word all you want, but what is the actual function of this law?

458
00:39:55,372 --> 00:40:16,812
And the answer is the function requires platforms to explain what their free speech posture is, explain how they're going to censor content, confess if they haven't censored content in the right way, explain their content moderation decisions, explain their design decisions, remove content on demand, remove content proactively.

459
00:40:17,332 --> 00:40:23,792
And in terms of the content removals, those removals frequently pertain to content which is constitutionally protected in the United States.

460
00:40:23,792 --> 00:40:42,312
So it is very much a censorship law, which that particular free speech clause I mentioned, one of the age, the age verification providers association, which is a industry body of the companies that are providing the age verification portals that all of these websites are using.

461
00:40:42,312 --> 00:40:48,812
And they're making money hand over fist as a result. They said, well, this is a potential First Amendment for the United Kingdom.

462
00:40:48,812 --> 00:40:53,452
And they wrote some propaganda about that just before the age verification process went live.

463
00:40:53,512 --> 00:40:59,512
And as vocal opposition began to burn, began to build up, they said, well, look, this is this is actually our own First Amendment.

464
00:40:59,512 --> 00:41:03,512
It's like, no, it's not the First Amendment. You're lying through your teeth. It has nothing to do with free speech.

465
00:41:04,072 --> 00:41:09,272
Like and if you look at what the First Amendment actually says, if you understood what the First Amendment says, it's very simple.

466
00:41:09,352 --> 00:41:17,292
The First Amendment says this whole law, if you enacted it in the United States, the entire thing, every word would be unconstitutional and the whole thing would be struck down.

467
00:41:17,292 --> 00:41:22,992
so so they're they want to make it seem like they're not doing the censorship they really

468
00:41:22,992 --> 00:41:27,832
are desperately twisting themselves in knots to get away from the perception that this is a

469
00:41:27,832 --> 00:41:32,352
censorship law and then they'll do things like send a letter to an american citizen in the united

470
00:41:32,352 --> 00:41:47,298
states operating perfectly lawfully here and they threaten them with jail time for for simply exercising their constitutional rights and you know i find it outrageous i think if you look at some of the podcasts I did earlier in the year I did a GB News spot back in July and I was visibly angry

471
00:41:47,398 --> 00:41:48,938
Like I was I was bright red.

472
00:41:48,998 --> 00:41:52,798
I was so pissed off at what and what these people were doing to my clients.

473
00:41:53,318 --> 00:41:57,918
And and it took about three months for that to kind of just like calm down and for me

474
00:41:57,918 --> 00:42:01,458
to just enter into a kind of a more level state where I'm still angry.

475
00:42:01,458 --> 00:42:03,818
But now I've just learned to live with it a little bit better.

476
00:42:03,818 --> 00:42:10,898
um so but they they they're doing things which are fundamentally antithetical to first amendment

477
00:42:10,898 --> 00:42:16,258
doctrine as americans understand it it's very very easy for an american to parry these requests

478
00:42:16,258 --> 00:42:20,658
and every time they try to get into the united states we're going to make them pay a very very

479
00:42:20,658 --> 00:42:26,578
steep political price by publicizing the notice sending those notices to the government publicly

480
00:42:26,578 --> 00:42:32,518
refusing to comply and ensuring that everybody knows that we did it so that's that's the you

481
00:42:32,518 --> 00:42:37,378
We are very committed, those of us who are fighting this, to seeing this through to the very end.

482
00:42:37,578 --> 00:42:43,398
And that means a lot of pain along the way, but hopefully for a very positive result for the entire industry as a consequence.

483
00:42:44,778 --> 00:42:50,898
Well, I'm glad that you and by representing these companies, these companies are actually sticking up for this.

484
00:42:50,898 --> 00:42:57,938
Because this, again, is just something that's antithetical to the basic principles that we hold dear in the United States of America,

485
00:42:57,938 --> 00:43:02,638
which they do not hold dear in the United Kingdom or the European Union or Australia.

486
00:43:02,878 --> 00:43:06,038
Clearly, they don't have it.

487
00:43:06,138 --> 00:43:08,878
They just don't have they don't have constitutionally enshrined protections.

488
00:43:09,018 --> 00:43:13,578
Right. And and maybe this is a good opportunity because you talked about some of the repercussions.

489
00:43:13,578 --> 00:43:25,698
Right. And you had just shared something maybe maybe just today or yesterday about basically President Trump suspending this 31 billion pound tech prosperity deal with with the UK.

490
00:43:25,698 --> 00:43:30,458
and they're basically talking about the Granite Act a little bit in that.

491
00:43:30,798 --> 00:43:31,958
You've shared this new segment.

492
00:43:32,138 --> 00:43:36,538
Can you talk about that a little bit and maybe talk about why the Granite Act specifically

493
00:43:36,538 --> 00:43:41,738
is kind of a step in the right direction as far as really making sure that not only like,

494
00:43:42,078 --> 00:43:46,098
okay, we already have these constitutionally protected freedoms in the U.S., right?

495
00:43:46,578 --> 00:43:46,738
Yeah.

496
00:43:46,838 --> 00:43:50,338
But this is another step to really make sure that, hey, if you want to come for us,

497
00:43:50,338 --> 00:43:53,938
if you want to come for American companies, there will be retribution essentially.

498
00:43:53,938 --> 00:44:11,438
Yeah. So part of this has been, there have been several different pathways to getting change in this particular domain. As a solo practitioner, I'm very limited in what I can do alone, right? I can't take on a nuclear armed G7 member state by myself and win.

499
00:44:11,438 --> 00:44:16,798
And so the strategy, well, I'm not, but here's the thing. I'm not alone, right? I'm not alone.

500
00:44:16,978 --> 00:44:20,418
That's the key thing that most, everyone sees my Twitter account and they think that I'm out there

501
00:44:20,418 --> 00:44:23,978
fighting by myself. That's not true anymore. It was true to start, but it's not true now.

502
00:44:24,238 --> 00:44:29,498
So the strategy of sending every communication to the U S federal government and various state

503
00:44:29,498 --> 00:44:34,218
governments was to alert them to the nature of the problem and ensure that they were aware of

504
00:44:34,218 --> 00:44:37,638
the extent of the problem. Because what happens is they were going on these diplomatic junkets

505
00:44:37,638 --> 00:44:41,978
over to London and Brussels and other places. And you go and meet with Ofcom and they blow a bunch

506
00:44:41,978 --> 00:44:45,238
of smoke up your ass. They turn around and they say, oh, no, it's just about protecting children.

507
00:44:45,378 --> 00:44:49,458
It's nothing to do with censorship. We're not. Keir Starmer said to J.D. Vance and President

508
00:44:49,458 --> 00:44:53,458
Trump in the Oval Office, of course, we're not going to cross the Atlantic and try to censor

509
00:44:53,458 --> 00:44:56,658
American citizens. We wouldn't dream of it. And that's exactly the first thing they did. They were

510
00:44:56,658 --> 00:45:01,058
doing it at the time. They continue to do it now. And so they haven't changed their posture at all.

511
00:45:01,118 --> 00:45:06,238
So there's a very wide gulf between the reality of what they're doing and the marketing pitch for

512
00:45:06,238 --> 00:45:10,558
what they're doing. And we had to make sure that the U.S. Congress and the executive branch

513
00:45:10,558 --> 00:45:14,758
wasn't buying their marketing pitch and was understanding what was happening on the ground.

514
00:45:14,878 --> 00:45:19,758
So that process began in late March, early April of this year. And that was basically involved

515
00:45:19,758 --> 00:45:24,278
sending every communication to the U.S. government. We knew the whole time and we continue to know,

516
00:45:24,458 --> 00:45:27,078
right? The real game, we have a lawsuit, obviously, in the District of Columbia,

517
00:45:27,558 --> 00:45:31,618
but the lawsuit is designed both to assert constitutional rights and defenses. And it

518
00:45:31,618 --> 00:45:37,158
was also designed to draw Ofcom out and see what they did when they were sued in an American court.

519
00:45:37,258 --> 00:45:40,438
And what they did is they pleaded sovereign immunity. They said, oh, we're part of the

520
00:45:40,438 --> 00:45:44,398
British state and we're going to plead sovereign immunity because we don't think that our conduct

521
00:45:44,398 --> 00:45:48,718
is justiciable by an American court because of American law, the Foreign Sovereign Immunities

522
00:45:48,718 --> 00:45:54,658
Act. Now, when they did that, we immediately publicized that. And what we did very shortly

523
00:45:54,658 --> 00:45:59,198
thereafter, five days later, was propose a draft law called the Granite Act. And the Granite Act

524
00:45:59,198 --> 00:46:04,338
stands for, GRANITE is an acronym, it stands for Guaranteeing Rights Against Novel International

525
00:46:04,338 --> 00:46:08,598
Tyranny and Extortion. And what it does is very, very simple, two things. It's a sword,

526
00:46:08,938 --> 00:46:14,098
and it's a shield. The shield piece is really easy. It says foreign censorship orders aren't

527
00:46:14,098 --> 00:46:18,898
enforceable in the United States, and no U.S. government agency, or in the case of what we

528
00:46:18,898 --> 00:46:23,298
drafted, it was for New Hampshire and later Wyoming, no state agency can cooperate in the

529
00:46:23,298 --> 00:46:28,358
service of those orders on American citizens. And if you do cooperate, there's a civil cause of

530
00:46:28,358 --> 00:46:32,238
action against the American state for doing it. And then there's a sword. And the sword says

531
00:46:32,238 --> 00:46:38,798
that any attempt to enter the United States, any attempt, any effort, any message, any communication,

532
00:46:39,038 --> 00:46:44,778
anything sent to an American citizen or an American company with the objective of censoring

533
00:46:44,778 --> 00:46:51,138
constitutionally protected speech or conduct will give rise to a civil cause of action against the

534
00:46:51,138 --> 00:46:56,758
foreign sovereign in respect of which foreign sovereign immunity does not apply. And the

535
00:46:56,758 --> 00:47:01,578
damages calculations for that civil cause of action, as we proposed in Wyoming, are titanic.

536
00:47:01,918 --> 00:47:08,318
It's $10 million minimum per message, up to $75 million in the case of the UK, because there's

537
00:47:08,318 --> 00:47:14,378
also, so you get the greater of triple actual damages, $10 million per message, or triple the

538
00:47:14,378 --> 00:47:20,258
fine, right? And if the UK says to 4chan, we're going to fine you $25 million, okay, we're going

539
00:47:20,258 --> 00:47:25,278
to sue you in a federal court for $75 million. And both the foreign state, the foreign agency

540
00:47:25,278 --> 00:47:29,678
carrying out the censorship in any individual who's responsible for that censorship at the

541
00:47:29,678 --> 00:47:33,778
foreign agency. They're all jointly and severally liable for it. And so with those two things

542
00:47:33,778 --> 00:47:38,158
combined, what it's designed to do is change the math of sending a censorship demand into the

543
00:47:38,158 --> 00:47:43,138
United States, because at the moment, sending the demand costs nothing. And the foreign state is able

544
00:47:43,138 --> 00:47:48,478
to intimidate American citizens from the free exercise of their constitutional rights. And the

545
00:47:48,478 --> 00:47:52,438
American response is very costly, because you have to get over a lot of threshold legal issues,

546
00:47:52,438 --> 00:47:56,958
chiefly sovereign immunity, which we expect all of these countries to raise in order to get a very

547
00:47:56,958 --> 00:48:01,898
simple set of defensive orders from a U.S. court just confirming that the notices weren't validly

548
00:48:01,898 --> 00:48:06,718
served. So this flips that on its head and says, okay, if the letter comes in, civil cause of action

549
00:48:06,718 --> 00:48:12,398
and sovereign immunity is gone. So if you send the letter, you're guaranteed, UK, that you have at

550
00:48:12,398 --> 00:48:18,458
least a $75 million damages claim on your hands. And moreover, because you need the access to the

551
00:48:18,458 --> 00:48:23,978
U.S. financial system in order to survive, those damages awards, if they are awarded, will be

552
00:48:23,978 --> 00:48:29,098
enforceable and you can get judgment executed against your assets held in U.S. banks, sovereign

553
00:48:29,098 --> 00:48:33,238
assets held in U.S. banks. And so it changes the math because now censorship costs nothing.

554
00:48:33,938 --> 00:48:37,458
They can send the orders. They can bluster all they want. They can yell all they want. They can

555
00:48:37,458 --> 00:48:43,298
pound the table all they want about how their rules should apply in America. And if we enact

556
00:48:43,298 --> 00:48:49,218
this law, if they even whisper, we're going to censor you, right, you must do this, then what

557
00:48:49,218 --> 00:48:53,898
happens is massive damages claim coming in the other direction. So what it should do is deter

558
00:48:53,898 --> 00:48:59,918
those notices from being sent into the United States and restore the position that we had about

559
00:48:59,918 --> 00:49:03,418
five years ago, which is that American companies operated in accordance with the First Amendment,

560
00:49:03,998 --> 00:49:10,658
their European operations largely voluntarily complied with European rules, local European rules,

561
00:49:10,658 --> 00:49:15,738
even though they weren't hosted in those countries. And as a consequence, they did

562
00:49:15,738 --> 00:49:21,918
substantial compliance, but not total compliance. It was not compelled. And it wasn't under threat

563
00:49:21,918 --> 00:49:27,018
of fines and arrests for senior managers. So the objective is to force the Europeans,

564
00:49:27,118 --> 00:49:30,858
if they really want to censor their internet, they will have to do it themselves. They'll have

565
00:49:30,858 --> 00:49:36,018
to do it to their own ISPs. It'll have to be an entirely domestic operation where the government

566
00:49:36,018 --> 00:49:41,538
assumes responsibility and has to politically own the consequences of blocking individual pieces of

567
00:49:41,538 --> 00:49:47,418
content by order, right? And the Americans aren't being conscripted to do that. So we proposed that.

568
00:49:47,658 --> 00:49:52,598
It was turned into a bill in Wyoming. That bill has been filed. New Hampshire, it looks like New

569
00:49:52,598 --> 00:49:56,298
Hampshire is going to have to wait a year because we just missed the filing period. So we'll probably

570
00:49:56,298 --> 00:50:03,098
get that on the calendar in 2027. And there are rumors, whispers, that the law or a form of it

571
00:50:03,098 --> 00:50:06,358
is currently under consideration by the House of Representatives federally.

572
00:50:07,338 --> 00:50:09,318
And so if we could, yeah, which would be great.

573
00:50:09,398 --> 00:50:11,238
And I'm not expecting anything to happen now.

574
00:50:11,318 --> 00:50:12,338
It's December 17th.

575
00:50:12,338 --> 00:50:15,638
But I am expecting things to heat up a bit on that front in the new year.

576
00:50:15,878 --> 00:50:17,638
And if we can get something like that federally,

577
00:50:18,018 --> 00:50:20,258
you know, it really changes the landscape a lot

578
00:50:20,258 --> 00:50:23,058
because suddenly Europeans no longer have the freedom

579
00:50:23,058 --> 00:50:25,778
to threaten Americans as freely as they happen.

580
00:50:25,958 --> 00:50:27,978
So, you know, in one letter to Ofcom recently,

581
00:50:28,298 --> 00:50:30,438
just after the Wyoming bill was filed, actually,

582
00:50:30,918 --> 00:50:32,258
I said to them flat out, I said,

583
00:50:32,258 --> 00:50:37,258
I hope you guys enjoy sending these threats to my clients because you're not going to be able to do it for very much longer.

584
00:50:38,998 --> 00:50:44,518
So enjoy it. Enjoy it while it lasts. And that's where we are. So we've got that that front going.

585
00:50:44,618 --> 00:50:55,078
And then, of course, President Trump with the trade deal you mentioned, the executive branch, I think, has its own view about how the Online Safety Act is potentially going to affect American tech businesses.

586
00:50:55,078 --> 00:51:15,938
I have practically zero visibility into that process. But reportedly, according to reporting in The Telegraph, the Online Safety Act just scuppered a $40 billion trade deal between the United States and the United Kingdom. It's been paused because the UK wouldn't cave on the Online Safety Act and its extraterritorial applicability. And the US said, sorry, that's a red line. That's not going to work for us.

587
00:51:15,938 --> 00:51:33,918
So the Europeans think it's just Trump, you know, President Trump doing the negotiation thing. I think it's actually a red line. I don't think the United States is going to cave on that because I think they recognize that American competitiveness is going to be significantly affected if we permit these rules to have extraterritorial effect on our soil.

588
00:51:33,918 --> 00:51:39,418
And that's something which could result in us losing the AI race to China, for example, which would be catastrophic.

589
00:51:39,418 --> 00:52:09,398
So ultimately, that's the, you know, that's, I said, I summarized all this at the beginning, but it is a multi-front war, both on the litigation front, on the messaging front, on the, you know, ensuring that the executive branch has an accurate view of what's going on with these foreign censorship rules, and also ensuring that the legislative branch and the states have an accurate view of what's going on and making sure that they're not going to buy, you know, the BS that's being fed to them by European salesmen of this legislation saying it's just about the kids.

590
00:52:09,418 --> 00:52:13,178
or it's just about safety. They've, you know, the US government has seen all of the correspondence.

591
00:52:13,418 --> 00:52:17,878
They understand who has been targeted, you know, why they've been targeted and what they've been

592
00:52:17,878 --> 00:52:22,858
threatened with and why they've been threatened with those things. And they no longer believe

593
00:52:22,858 --> 00:52:26,358
the European and the British story that this is just about protecting the kids because they're

594
00:52:26,358 --> 00:52:29,718
looking and they're saying, hold on a second, it's a law abiding American company. Nobody's

595
00:52:29,718 --> 00:52:34,198
getting hurt here, right? If you want to get access to their data, they work with law enforcement,

596
00:52:34,198 --> 00:52:38,398
that sort of thing. So we're not buying the story anymore that they were initially told.

597
00:52:39,418 --> 00:52:45,558
I mean, it seems that all of these laws that are being put forward in these various countries,

598
00:52:45,678 --> 00:52:50,078
this ultimately, all this does is this comes down to control of kind of their own populace

599
00:52:50,078 --> 00:52:51,318
and the narrative within that, right?

600
00:52:51,318 --> 00:52:55,018
And having these external American companies that are able to, you know,

601
00:52:55,058 --> 00:52:58,638
bring a little dash of American free speech into their borders

602
00:52:58,638 --> 00:53:02,418
when they're trying to basically crack down with totalitarian speech policies,

603
00:53:02,658 --> 00:53:05,178
that's a wrench in the gears is the way I see it.

604
00:53:05,218 --> 00:53:07,678
It's a way for, they're saying, oh, shit, you know,

605
00:53:07,678 --> 00:53:14,938
And any sort of totalitarian or even just totalitarian temptation movement requires control of speech, right?

606
00:53:14,998 --> 00:53:24,098
It requires elimination of privacy and it requires ultimate control of speech because if you can be private, well, then you can speak freely privately and you can say, hey, this fucking sucks, guys.

607
00:53:24,338 --> 00:53:25,038
I don't like this.

608
00:53:25,258 --> 00:53:27,438
And if you can speak publicly and say, guys, this fucking sucks.

609
00:53:27,498 --> 00:53:28,098
I don't like this.

610
00:53:28,438 --> 00:53:29,798
That's how revolutions start, right?

611
00:53:29,818 --> 00:53:32,058
That's how tyrannical governments get overthrown.

612
00:53:32,238 --> 00:53:37,098
And so for me, and I don't mean to sound hyperbolic, but I really think that's ultimately what it comes down to.

613
00:53:37,098 --> 00:53:46,578
It's like they are scared of the fact that American companies are able to still operate and respect free speech of American citizens.

614
00:53:47,018 --> 00:53:53,298
And they do not want that same thing for their populace because, you know, there's also growing unrest happening in these countries.

615
00:53:53,298 --> 00:53:54,938
Like the UK is a prime example of that.

616
00:53:54,978 --> 00:53:57,758
There's a huge I think there's just an overwhelming sense.

617
00:53:57,818 --> 00:54:01,118
I get this both from social media and also from my friends who are in the UK.

618
00:54:01,318 --> 00:54:03,018
And I'm sure you hear this all the time as well.

619
00:54:03,018 --> 00:54:09,598
It's like there is they're not the citizens are not very happy with their government right now, not happy with really any aspect of their government.

620
00:54:10,078 --> 00:54:13,398
And so for me, I look at this and I say, well, this is obviously an attempt.

621
00:54:13,458 --> 00:54:14,378
What's what's the first step?

622
00:54:14,418 --> 00:54:17,738
Well, it's add age verification for any sort of online activities.

623
00:54:17,738 --> 00:54:19,038
Right. But what does that do?

624
00:54:19,078 --> 00:54:19,978
How do you verify age?

625
00:54:19,978 --> 00:54:20,758
Well, you need your ID.

626
00:54:22,038 --> 00:54:23,058
That's exactly what they said.

627
00:54:23,118 --> 00:54:25,138
Well, it's age verification and it's content moderation.

628
00:54:25,318 --> 00:54:25,778
OK, fine.

629
00:54:26,138 --> 00:54:27,198
They add age verification.

630
00:54:27,318 --> 00:54:28,278
They add content moderation.

631
00:54:28,718 --> 00:54:29,418
Then what happens?

632
00:54:29,698 --> 00:54:30,038
Guess what?

633
00:54:30,118 --> 00:54:31,538
Everyone circumvents it with a VPN.

634
00:54:31,538 --> 00:54:36,318
Next up, now they've said, oh, well, now VPNs are going to have to do age verification, right?

635
00:54:36,398 --> 00:54:40,518
And next thing up, okay, if VPNs are doing age verification, guess what you're doing?

636
00:54:40,598 --> 00:54:42,058
You're doxing every VPN user.

637
00:54:42,158 --> 00:54:43,058
You're finding out who they are.

638
00:54:43,338 --> 00:54:43,998
What's the next thing?

639
00:54:44,078 --> 00:54:46,238
Oh, well, we're going to ban VPNs next, right?

640
00:54:46,238 --> 00:54:48,418
So you have to KYC your users on a global basis.

641
00:54:48,618 --> 00:54:54,018
So there's an escalation ladder on their side where they understand you start here or Mott and Bailey, right?

642
00:54:54,038 --> 00:54:55,218
It's like, oh, it's about safety and the kids.

643
00:54:55,298 --> 00:54:58,218
Oh, well, this didn't work, so we'll ratchet it up and ratchet it up and ratchet it up.

644
00:54:58,218 --> 00:55:09,198
And that's why we're fighting so hard to not let them get that first ratchet here in the United States, because we know that if we give them that inch, then they'll take the next inch and the next inch and the next inch and the one after that and the one after that.

645
00:55:09,538 --> 00:55:11,118
Because that's what's happened over there, right?

646
00:55:11,178 --> 00:55:13,038
One inch at a time since 1997.

647
00:55:13,678 --> 00:55:15,718
British civil liberties have been progressively eroded.

648
00:55:16,918 --> 00:55:19,258
Just one little bitty at a time.

649
00:55:19,398 --> 00:55:23,498
And after over 30 years, that's when you look back and you say, oh, my God, look, look what's happened.

650
00:55:23,598 --> 00:55:24,878
And people are starting to wake up.

651
00:55:24,878 --> 00:55:27,398
So from our point of view, yeah, there's no daylight

652
00:55:27,398 --> 00:55:28,518
between us on this position.

653
00:55:28,518 --> 00:55:31,338
I think that it's absolutely about domestic control.

654
00:55:31,338 --> 00:55:33,118
I think it is to a certain extent also about

655
00:55:33,144 --> 00:55:55,084
I think they do genuinely want to control what happens and what discourse is permitted in the United States so that Americans cannot criticize those countries and get ideas out, can't even develop those ideas in the United States in order that they would be then broadcast or transmitted or sent into Europe, the UK or Australia, criticizing those governments for the way that they run their countries.

656
00:55:55,084 --> 00:56:10,064
So it's very much about political control and no daylight between us on that, as I said. And yeah, our objective has been to resist, reinforce the perimeter here in the United States. All of the efforts, it's a multi-stage thing.

657
00:56:10,064 --> 00:56:17,784
So everything that we're doing now has one objective in mind, and that is to reinforce the American perimeter so that foreign rules can't get in.

658
00:56:18,244 --> 00:56:34,744
And once that's done, then we can start having conversations about what it's going to look like to extend that perimeter and start bringing free speech or freer speech, if not American-style free speech, to the rest of the world when everything has been pushed into America and we're the last bastion, effectively, on the Internet.

659
00:56:35,324 --> 00:56:37,224
If we lose it, it's gone.

660
00:56:37,884 --> 00:56:39,024
That's our viewpoint.

661
00:56:39,024 --> 00:56:44,484
point. So yeah, no, as I said, no daylight whatsoever between us on that. I think that

662
00:56:44,484 --> 00:56:49,784
hits the nail on the head completely. Well, and ultimately this, this makes me think of, I saw

663
00:56:49,784 --> 00:56:56,524
as the Elon X EU saga was, has been playing out here. But in like the first day after that,

664
00:56:56,864 --> 00:57:01,604
one of the things I saw, I saw some EU bureaucrat basically say somebody commented something to him

665
00:57:01,604 --> 00:57:06,024
that he really didn't like, somehow offended him. I don't remember the exact comment. He quote,

666
00:57:06,024 --> 00:57:10,084
He said, give me your name and your real name and your address.

667
00:57:10,204 --> 00:57:11,244
So my lawyers can.

668
00:57:11,384 --> 00:57:14,484
And it's like, bro, do you hear yourself?

669
00:57:14,804 --> 00:57:16,144
Like, I mean, do you seriously?

670
00:57:16,264 --> 00:57:17,324
But that's how they think.

671
00:57:17,324 --> 00:57:21,964
It's like, how dare they be able to say bad things about me anonymously online?

672
00:57:22,144 --> 00:57:23,304
We can't have that.

673
00:57:23,624 --> 00:57:26,944
We can't have them thinking they can just say whatever they want and criticize us because

674
00:57:26,944 --> 00:57:28,004
that could be dangerous.

675
00:57:28,124 --> 00:57:29,464
Like, this is dangerous speech.

676
00:57:30,024 --> 00:57:34,204
And I mean, that's just like, that's just patently insane to me.

677
00:57:34,204 --> 00:57:37,704
It's insane that, I mean, I guess it's not insane that people think like that.

678
00:57:37,744 --> 00:57:39,544
It's insane that they think that they're some other good guys.

679
00:57:39,884 --> 00:57:40,724
Because I think that they do.

680
00:57:40,784 --> 00:57:48,484
I think they've deluded themselves, many of them, into thinking like, oh, no, we're the ones who are trying to keep things respectful and keep the dialogue productive.

681
00:57:48,484 --> 00:57:52,944
And we just have to get rid of some of these bad apples and make sure that everybody stays in line.

682
00:57:52,964 --> 00:57:57,924
Because the poor, stupid plebs can't possibly, you know, handle the ability to speak freely.

683
00:57:58,044 --> 00:57:59,504
Like, that would just be far too dangerous.

684
00:57:59,504 --> 00:58:04,644
I mean, Germany's laws are insane, like really insane.

685
00:58:04,844 --> 00:58:17,204
I mean, the fact that you can get you can get arrested for reposting something like, you know, again, the whole if you insult somebody in person or you insult them online, like you can't call your politician a fat little piggy or something like that.

686
00:58:17,444 --> 00:58:20,744
You can get it like I was on the I was on the receiving end of that subpoena.

687
00:58:21,404 --> 00:58:22,664
Oh, my God. Were you really?

688
00:58:22,864 --> 00:58:25,524
I dealt I handled that. So, yeah, that one. That was fun.

689
00:58:25,524 --> 00:58:32,144
um so the thing with these europeans is they're so used to deference that the minute it's very

690
00:58:32,144 --> 00:58:37,584
exploitable in a in a adversarial legal setting because they're so used to deference that you can

691
00:58:37,584 --> 00:58:43,804
drive them absolutely ballistic just by refusing to cooperate and embarrassing them in public it's

692
00:58:43,804 --> 00:58:49,324
very very easy to force them into courses of conduct that you want to force them into i mean

693
00:58:49,324 --> 00:58:53,544
the entire thing with 4chan and publicly refusing these requests was that we wanted them to come over

694
00:58:53,544 --> 00:58:58,864
here and try to assert their power in as maximal a fashion as possible in response. We wanted them

695
00:58:58,864 --> 00:59:04,084
to react and overreact as aggressively as they possibly could in order to save their dignity.

696
00:59:04,244 --> 00:59:07,864
And that's exactly what they did, because honor is something which runs through European culture.

697
00:59:08,084 --> 00:59:11,584
It's not like the Middle East, but it's something which runs through European culture

698
00:59:11,584 --> 00:59:16,844
a lot more strongly than it does here in the United States. I think everybody's just a little

699
00:59:16,844 --> 00:59:21,164
disrespectful. A janitor is as good as a king, if not better, here in the United States.

700
00:59:21,164 --> 00:59:40,944
So when you challenge one of these bureaucrats in a very forward and frontal way, it's virtually guaranteed that they're going to respond in with as much bluster and as much anger as they possibly can, but not understanding, right, that every time they do that, that creates political ammunition for you here in the United States, which you can then use against them.

701
00:59:40,944 --> 00:59:57,824
And that has been the strategy the entire time. I mean, the fact that a bill I drafted on October 18th was under consideration in the House of Representatives, reportedly on December the 3rd, in 51 days or something like that, is astonishing. Nothing moves that quickly.

702
00:59:57,824 --> 01:00:09,544
But we managed to go to the Europeans and the Australians and everybody else into sending us communications that we knew when we provided it to our elected representatives and the federal government.

703
01:00:09,544 --> 01:00:11,904
They would look at it and just say, this is outrageous.

704
01:00:11,904 --> 01:00:13,004
This is unbelievable.

705
01:00:13,424 --> 01:00:15,024
They're talking to American citizens.

706
01:00:15,144 --> 01:00:15,364
How?

707
01:00:15,704 --> 01:00:16,564
They're saying what?

708
01:00:16,664 --> 01:00:18,364
They're threatening them with what?

709
01:00:18,684 --> 01:00:20,744
And that's exactly the reaction that we got.

710
01:00:21,104 --> 01:00:23,324
So only but because we refused.

711
01:00:23,604 --> 01:00:26,184
We just and the refusals were very, very straightforward, very simple.

712
01:00:26,184 --> 01:00:27,224
Thanks very much for your email.

713
01:00:27,224 --> 01:00:30,904
you know we really appreciate it unfortunately under the first fourth and fifth amendments the

714
01:00:30,904 --> 01:00:35,904
united states constitution we have a right to refuse this and moreover in addition to that

715
01:00:35,904 --> 01:00:40,524
you didn't use an international service convention to service with this notice so you can do whatever

716
01:00:40,524 --> 01:00:43,764
you want under your procedure but it's not enforceable here and then they turn around

717
01:00:43,764 --> 01:00:47,644
and they wrote stuff like well we don't think the first amendment protects you from us on u.s soil or

718
01:00:47,644 --> 01:00:53,984
that u.s law supersedes our law on us so and you're just like cool you know forward dear congress

719
01:00:53,984 --> 01:01:00,044
Take a look at this shit. Isn't this a riot? Look what they wrote. And they did it all in writing,

720
01:01:00,204 --> 01:01:07,444
by email. So there was this very rapid feedback loop where they had a long process, a six-month

721
01:01:07,444 --> 01:01:13,124
regulatory process, and we were able to get inside their OODA loop by simply forwarding that process

722
01:01:13,124 --> 01:01:20,904
to Congress in essentially real time and beginning to spin up a U.S. response while the Europeans...

723
01:01:20,904 --> 01:01:22,844
So this rolled out in stages.

724
01:01:23,184 --> 01:01:26,344
Australia's law went live on December the 10th.

725
01:01:26,664 --> 01:01:31,084
Their online safety, it's under 16 social media ban.

726
01:01:31,444 --> 01:01:34,284
The Europeans issued their first fine on December the 5th.

727
01:01:34,684 --> 01:01:38,864
And the British started rolling out their law in January, the end of January of this year.

728
01:01:39,484 --> 01:01:41,304
So it was a phased rollout.

729
01:01:41,464 --> 01:01:44,124
And by the time the Europeans and the Australians really got up to speed,

730
01:01:44,384 --> 01:01:47,524
we'd already been telling the U.S. about the British for a year, right?

731
01:01:47,524 --> 01:01:49,304
So the U.S. kind of knew.

732
01:01:49,304 --> 01:01:55,084
And as soon as the Europeans did what they did, the State Department, right out the gate, this is not going to be tolerated, this isn't going to be allowed.

733
01:01:55,204 --> 01:01:58,684
U.S. trade representative today said, listen, this isn't going to be allowed.

734
01:01:58,784 --> 01:02:01,344
The State Department went to London on December the 4th.

735
01:02:01,444 --> 01:02:02,704
They said this isn't going to be allowed.

736
01:02:03,124 --> 01:02:10,124
And so we managed to get the U.S. kind of an approximate, right, I don't know what the official line is.

737
01:02:10,204 --> 01:02:12,064
I don't know what the U.S. government's planning on doing.

738
01:02:12,184 --> 01:02:13,684
I don't know what Congress is planning on doing.

739
01:02:14,024 --> 01:02:16,904
But I do know that a view has been formed of some kind.

740
01:02:16,904 --> 01:02:24,704
And I suspect that a planned response, an ideal response, has also been agreed upon, although I don't know what that is, if indeed that has occurred.

741
01:02:25,484 --> 01:02:32,344
And so we have been building their awareness over the course of the last year and providing them with the legislative tools.

742
01:02:32,604 --> 01:02:40,844
This is what I, as the one guy in the United States or two guys in the United States, myself and Ron Coleman, who are dealing with these issues and fielding this inbound.

743
01:02:41,964 --> 01:02:45,744
We look at it. We feed it to them. We're the ones on the ground. We understand the strategy.

744
01:02:45,744 --> 01:02:46,744
We brought the lawsuit.

745
01:02:47,204 --> 01:02:48,684
We've been doing this for a very, very long.

746
01:02:48,744 --> 01:02:53,704
Ron and I have been doing free speech work for a very long time in this specific domain.

747
01:02:54,544 --> 01:02:57,084
And so we understand what the problem space is.

748
01:02:57,264 --> 01:02:59,104
And the U.S. government, we're like, OK, here's a solution.

749
01:02:59,244 --> 01:03:02,524
And it appears that if reporting is accurate, it appears that they like it.

750
01:03:02,724 --> 01:03:04,984
So we'll see if they wind up advancing it.

751
01:03:05,964 --> 01:03:14,204
But yeah, the haughty nature of the European bureaucrat has been something which has been

752
01:03:14,204 --> 01:03:21,064
very exploitable by us in order to essentially goad them and prod them into making admissions,

753
01:03:21,064 --> 01:03:25,404
which in Europe look like they're defending their honor, they're defending their position,

754
01:03:25,624 --> 01:03:30,584
they're puffing their chest out, they're being appropriately strict and stern and aggressive.

755
01:03:30,864 --> 01:03:34,444
And in the United States, people look at it and they say, this is the most outrageous thing we've

756
01:03:34,444 --> 01:03:39,264
ever read. How dare they say that to an American citizen? So that has been the strategy really the

757
01:03:39,264 --> 01:03:46,144
whole time and it's worked remarkably effectively yeah i think culturally appeals to authority work

758
01:03:46,144 --> 01:03:54,404
a lot better in the uk and in the and in the eu more broadly like that's just culturally it's more

759
01:03:54,404 --> 01:04:00,224
ingrained it's maybe the the uk even to to that extreme but in america it's like that's we we don't

760
01:04:00,224 --> 01:04:05,324
operate the same way right it's it's not as hierarchical from that kind of uh that authority

761
01:04:05,324 --> 01:04:08,944
perspective like particularly when the thing that they're going after is the first amendment

762
01:04:08,944 --> 01:04:13,644
right it's like listen the targets that they selected are all american targets they have

763
01:04:13,644 --> 01:04:17,504
no operations outside of the united states whatsoever so they send a letter to an american

764
01:04:17,504 --> 01:04:21,684
citizen in the united states with no foreign operations at all totally american site is

765
01:04:21,684 --> 01:04:25,744
everything in america and they say you got to follow our rules we explain this to them and

766
01:04:25,744 --> 01:04:31,064
then they go you know we don't care you still have to follow our rules it's outrageous it's it's it's

767
01:04:31,064 --> 01:04:35,304
so insane and then of course the media runs cover for them because the american media doesn't care

768
01:04:35,304 --> 01:04:37,344
and the British media is on the side of the regulators.

769
01:04:37,884 --> 01:04:39,544
So from our point, because they don't like the internet,

770
01:04:39,664 --> 01:04:40,984
because the internet is eating their lunch.

771
01:04:41,484 --> 01:04:44,044
So from our point of view, the messaging has been challenging,

772
01:04:44,664 --> 01:04:48,544
but the real audience here has never been in London.

773
01:04:49,124 --> 01:04:50,904
It's always been in Washington, D.C.

774
01:04:51,484 --> 01:04:54,064
And I'm very confident that the message that we've been trying to send

775
01:04:54,064 --> 01:04:56,384
has been received in Washington, D.C.,

776
01:04:56,384 --> 01:05:00,004
which is why now, compared to if you look at some of my podcasts

777
01:05:00,004 --> 01:05:02,324
some earlier in the year, it's pretty animated.

778
01:05:02,524 --> 01:05:05,104
Now it's like, all right, well, stuff's happening.

779
01:05:05,304 --> 01:05:14,104
Sit back, relax, get a, you know, make a nice, nice tub of popcorn and enjoy the enjoy the show, because I think we're going to have some real fireworks in 2026.

780
01:05:14,724 --> 01:05:26,844
I mean, you definitely do see seem quite almost zen at this point, I think, because because you guys have built up such kind of a a strong baseline of how to actually interact with these these foreign institutions.

781
01:05:26,844 --> 01:05:37,304
And it's got to be pretty heartening from your side to actually see our American politicians or our state, you know, state level representatives actually, you know, come back and back you guys as they should.

782
01:05:37,404 --> 01:05:39,204
Like, that's that's what they should be doing.

783
01:05:39,304 --> 01:05:45,284
This is kind of just a gross invasion, you know, in the digital ecosystem of our of our territory.

784
01:05:45,624 --> 01:05:47,664
And so I'm glad to see this pushback.

785
01:05:47,664 --> 01:05:55,924
I'm curious, though, too, if maybe flipping the script a little bit, obviously, in the United States during kind of the covid era.

786
01:05:55,924 --> 01:06:02,604
right? There was a lot of, you know, disinformation and misinformation removal. There was a lot of

787
01:06:02,604 --> 01:06:07,344
state level or, you know, federal level collusion, but, you know, nation state level collusion

788
01:06:07,344 --> 01:06:11,944
with some of these big tech platforms to remove information that was inconvenient.

789
01:06:12,664 --> 01:06:17,224
My sense, and I think the sense of most people is that there's been a bit of a vibe shift there

790
01:06:17,224 --> 01:06:22,244
and that people are now so aware of that. So much of it has been so public and so much of it was

791
01:06:22,244 --> 01:06:25,904
just so patently absurd where it was like, well, this is a conspiracy theory. Now, six months later,

792
01:06:25,904 --> 01:06:28,184
It's like, well, it's being published in the New York Times as fact.

793
01:06:28,704 --> 01:06:29,464
So like, was it in?

794
01:06:29,584 --> 01:06:31,844
But my YouTube channel got shut down for saying that.

795
01:06:33,344 --> 01:06:47,104
I guess my question is, do you think that in America we've reached a point because of that kind of, again, a bit Orwellian in the U.S. sense, Orwellian response to some of the information that was being shared during the COVID era?

796
01:06:47,224 --> 01:06:53,824
Do you think that we've developed a bit more of an immune system on top of our natural immunity that's there as Americans, on top of those protections we have in the First Amendment?

797
01:06:53,824 --> 01:07:01,204
Do you think that we're past a lot of that federal level or state level collusion with these big tech platforms?

798
01:07:01,604 --> 01:07:06,764
Or is this still something that we need to kind of be on our toes about as Americans as well?

799
01:07:06,844 --> 01:07:08,924
Because I can kind of go both ways in this.

800
01:07:09,004 --> 01:07:10,064
Yeah, I felt a vibe shift.

801
01:07:10,164 --> 01:07:15,804
Yeah, the Overton window shifted around what should and should not be able to be discussed in public.

802
01:07:15,884 --> 01:07:18,624
And generally people agree, yeah, we should be able to discuss anything.

803
01:07:19,104 --> 01:07:41,702
That obviously not the rule or that not the rule for everyone There some political differences there as well but I love to know just how you think about that Is that part of your focus at all right now just in you know not only protecting Americans and American companies from foreign governments but ensuring that we still have those constitutionally granted protections here for Americans from our own government as well

804
01:07:41,702 --> 01:07:57,082
I mean, I think from a personal perspective, you know, the objective of bringing about the complete and total destruction of all foreign censorship emanating from every country on Earth is a fairly meaty task.

805
01:07:58,122 --> 01:07:59,202
Fair enough.

806
01:07:59,202 --> 01:08:02,982
I obviously have opinions about what's going on in the United States.

807
01:08:04,182 --> 01:08:17,082
I'm actually not, when it comes to private censorship, I'm fairly absolutist about my First Amendment position, which is that private companies should be able to make any censorship decisions they want, as long as it's not coerced by the state.

808
01:08:17,082 --> 01:08:28,562
I think what you had in the COVID period was, they call it the censorship industrial complex, which is a group of NGOs, the U.S. government and private actors colluding to suppress information.

809
01:08:28,562 --> 01:08:42,062
And at the time, it was in their business interest to do so. I'm not sure that it is in their business interest to do so anymore, particularly when you have a company like X, which has a more free speech forward ethos to the way that it manages its platform and has a competitive advantage as a result.

810
01:08:42,502 --> 01:08:50,322
So what you've seen is that X restored free speech. It began to grow. And then everybody else has slowly started to pivot after them because it's in their interest.

811
01:08:50,322 --> 01:08:56,402
whereas I think back in 2020 maybe that wasn't the case the social media market was largely static

812
01:08:56,402 --> 01:09:00,722
there were no new entrants there were no new technologies AI was certainly wasn't generative

813
01:09:00,722 --> 01:09:05,282
AI for example certainly wasn't as big a deal as it is now whereas now there's a gold rush for

814
01:09:05,282 --> 01:09:10,342
getting the best AI systems and I think if you're focused on making sure the AI says the right thing

815
01:09:10,342 --> 01:09:14,302
rather than the AI says the thing which is going to make the user the happiest you're not going to

816
01:09:14,302 --> 01:09:18,102
have as much market share so I think there are some different business incentives that apply now

817
01:09:18,102 --> 01:09:22,222
compared to five years ago, which will prevent that from becoming a problem again in the

818
01:09:22,222 --> 01:09:23,082
foreseeable future.

819
01:09:24,302 --> 01:09:26,942
But free speech is under attack everywhere all the time.

820
01:09:27,122 --> 01:09:29,822
I think that's the general rule.

821
01:09:30,702 --> 01:09:36,942
And in my case, I just happened to have this weird, funky battlefront that only affected

822
01:09:36,942 --> 01:09:42,262
three or four companies in a serious way before this year and now affects every company in

823
01:09:42,262 --> 01:09:42,962
the United States.

824
01:09:42,962 --> 01:09:50,522
And so it was a strange confluence of skill set, experience, motivation, and the country that started it.

825
01:09:50,602 --> 01:09:59,882
If, for example, Bulgaria had decided that they were going to try to enforce the Bulgarian Online Safety Act or whatever they have in the United States, I would have been uniquely useless to address that.

826
01:09:59,882 --> 01:10:11,402
But because it was the UK that came out the gate first, and I'm a dual qualified UK-US lawyer, English lawyer specifically, it was kind of the nightmare scenario for them and the ideal scenario for my clients.

827
01:10:11,682 --> 01:10:20,962
Because I understood what they were trying to do and why, understood what we were able to do and why, and then position the defense accordingly.

828
01:10:21,022 --> 01:10:22,622
Because there hasn't been a whole lot of back and forth.

829
01:10:22,702 --> 01:10:23,582
There's not a lot to defend.

830
01:10:23,902 --> 01:10:27,102
Because ultimately, they can lob all the letters over that they want.

831
01:10:27,822 --> 01:10:29,622
But what are they going to do?

832
01:10:29,622 --> 01:10:31,062
OK, come over here and enforce it.

833
01:10:31,222 --> 01:10:31,242
Right.

834
01:10:31,302 --> 01:10:31,782
Moulin lave.

835
01:10:31,882 --> 01:10:32,422
Come and get it.

836
01:10:32,802 --> 01:10:36,602
And they're not going to do that because they'll go talk to their U.S. lawyers and their U.S.

837
01:10:36,662 --> 01:10:41,302
lawyers will tell them, if you bring this to an American federal court, you will be laughed

838
01:10:41,302 --> 01:10:41,822
out of court.

839
01:10:42,142 --> 01:10:44,162
So our strategy has been very different as a result.

840
01:10:44,362 --> 01:10:48,182
It's never really been what a typical lawyer would do, which is that you get the demand.

841
01:10:48,722 --> 01:10:53,522
And then as Wikipedia, I think, is a prime example, Wikipedia was told by the UK, you're

842
01:10:53,522 --> 01:10:55,102
going to be required to comply with our rules.

843
01:10:55,102 --> 01:11:08,782
So Wikipedia went over to London and then filed a case in the high court and tried to challenge the law in the high court of England and Wales and lost their challenge because, of course, the deck is stacked against them. Parliament said X and what Parliament says goes.

844
01:11:09,282 --> 01:11:16,022
And so they brought a free speech challenge or various other judicial review grounds and the court ruled against them. And that is what your typical lawyer does.

845
01:11:16,022 --> 01:11:20,522
I looked at it and said, there's not really a legal solution here, right? There is a legal

846
01:11:20,522 --> 01:11:24,882
solution, but that legal solution is not the resolution of the case. The legal solution is

847
01:11:24,882 --> 01:11:30,442
re-architecting the legal system in the United States so as to make it very difficult or nearly

848
01:11:30,442 --> 01:11:35,662
impossible for a foreign government to impose a foreign censorship law here. And so that was a

849
01:11:35,662 --> 01:11:39,802
very, we employed very different strategies as a result. And, you know, I wasn't talking about any

850
01:11:39,802 --> 01:11:45,342
of this in August, September, October, because we weren't there yet. But now we've got the take-up

851
01:11:45,342 --> 01:11:50,222
at the state level in Wyoming, and potentially also the federal level, TBD, what Congress actually

852
01:11:50,222 --> 01:11:54,702
does. But now that we've got that there, the mission has changed, right? It's no longer,

853
01:11:54,842 --> 01:11:59,262
oh, we've got the strategic litigation, and the objective is to get Congress to pick it up and

854
01:11:59,262 --> 01:12:04,762
have the litigation serve as an example of what's wrong with the current system. Now the objective

855
01:12:04,762 --> 01:12:08,822
is tell everyone why we were doing what we were doing, right, and sell it and say, listen, this

856
01:12:08,822 --> 01:12:14,882
is something that we want done, that we need done, and this is the campaign, this is why we did things

857
01:12:14,882 --> 01:12:20,782
the way we did this explains why we sent snarky emails to the australian e-safety commissioner

858
01:12:20,782 --> 01:12:25,002
telling them that they should watch the latest cool k-drama that i've been watching with my wife

859
01:12:25,002 --> 01:12:29,442
at home i sent them a letter there's a great k-drama called boys over flowers from 2008 it is

860
01:12:29,442 --> 01:12:35,002
fabulous let me tell you and uh and so i i told the australian e-safety committee extremely corny

861
01:12:35,002 --> 01:12:40,122
extremely cheesy very fun and i wrote a letter to the e-safety commissioner and got a million views

862
01:12:40,122 --> 01:12:44,382
on twitter basically saying hey listen i'd love to explain to you why this fishing expedition

863
01:12:44,382 --> 01:12:49,382
against my client is productive, but I have to go upstairs and watch this K-drama. So we'll have

864
01:12:49,382 --> 01:12:54,502
to take this up another time. Really sorry. And I wonder whether anyone in Australia actually then

865
01:12:54,502 --> 01:12:58,462
went and watched it because like I would totally like we could like have a pen pal correspondence

866
01:12:58,462 --> 01:13:02,542
about it and everything. But the reason we've done that is because, you know, things like that,

867
01:13:02,542 --> 01:13:07,602
which are not the type of activity you would typically expect to see from a private practice

868
01:13:07,602 --> 01:13:12,862
lawyer executing any kind of defense to a client is because the real mission here, the real objective

869
01:13:12,862 --> 01:13:19,782
is to embarrass the foreign regulators, humiliate them politically, impose political costs over there

870
01:13:19,782 --> 01:13:24,762
and over here, and to ensure that Congress notices and Congress gets off the line, right? And you

871
01:13:24,762 --> 01:13:31,262
don't do that by sending a letter that nobody reads via FedEx, right, to their head offices. You do

872
01:13:31,262 --> 01:13:35,822
that by sending a funny tweet. And that has been the strategy, essentially, to build a political

873
01:13:35,822 --> 01:13:42,282
coalition in the United States that recognizes the threat of foreign censorship, understands what

874
01:13:42,282 --> 01:13:46,462
the nature of that threat is, understands what the nature of the solution is, and supports the

875
01:13:46,462 --> 01:13:51,042
implementation of that solution on a rapid timeline. And so that's why we've been so unconventional,

876
01:13:51,422 --> 01:13:56,682
right, is because I've dealt with this issue since 2018, right, in private practice.

877
01:13:57,102 --> 01:14:01,162
If you send an email back to them telling them to go to hell, that achieves nothing. If you send an

878
01:14:01,162 --> 01:14:06,142
email telling them to go to hell, and that email gets noticed by a sitting U.S. senator who's

879
01:14:06,142 --> 01:14:11,442
drafting a bill, right, that's a very different kettle of fish. And so that's what we've been

880
01:14:11,442 --> 01:14:16,982
trying to do. So yeah, they had the nightmare scenario and I had the ideal scenario. It was

881
01:14:16,982 --> 01:14:21,202
very much an accident that I happened to be sitting. I mean, I was deliberately here. I was

882
01:14:21,202 --> 01:14:26,402
deliberately grinding on this particular problem. But the circumstances lined up with my experience,

883
01:14:26,522 --> 01:14:32,902
my education and my personal interests. And then I think there were probably three or four people

884
01:14:32,902 --> 01:14:37,682
who could have done, who had the experience in this area, all of whom I know, who would have

885
01:14:37,682 --> 01:14:41,442
done exactly the same thing, but I got the cases. So I did the work and that was that.

886
01:14:43,102 --> 01:14:47,722
Do you think is the Granite Act, does it go far enough? Is that like, if this gets passed,

887
01:14:47,782 --> 01:14:52,162
you know, by a few more state legislatures, if this makes it, you know, through the federal level

888
01:14:52,162 --> 01:14:57,242
process, does, would you be happy with that? Like, or is there still more work to be done after that?

889
01:14:57,262 --> 01:15:02,002
Is this just a starting point or is this like, Hey, if we get this, we're pretty well positioned.

890
01:15:02,762 --> 01:15:07,162
I think the Granite Act as a start is, is going to be enough to secure the American perimeter.

891
01:15:07,682 --> 01:15:15,582
I think that will largely keep the U.S. off limits because there is no conceivable – there's no – how to put it?

892
01:15:16,322 --> 01:15:30,862
There's a documentary with Robert McNamara called The Fog of War, and he talks about working under Curtis LeMay, who is a famous Air Force general in the Strategic Air Command during the Second World War, or whatever the predecessor was, the Army Air Force.

893
01:15:30,862 --> 01:15:40,382
and LeMay looked at the practice of attacking enemy infrastructure through one metric McNamara

894
01:15:40,382 --> 01:15:46,182
says and that is the loss of his air crews per unit of target destruction not how many bombs did

895
01:15:46,182 --> 01:15:51,542
we drop not how many planes do we have not not how many sorties did we run but the loss of my

896
01:15:51,542 --> 01:15:56,622
air crews per unit of target destruction you have to quantify right you have to there's there is a

897
01:15:56,622 --> 01:16:02,362
number that makes something not worth doing. And there is a number that makes it optimally worth

898
01:16:02,362 --> 01:16:06,922
doing. And you have to figure out what that number is. And then you can operate and say, listen,

899
01:16:07,062 --> 01:16:11,362
within these particular constraints, something is worth doing. And outside of those constraints,

900
01:16:11,442 --> 01:16:16,582
it isn't. What the Granite Act is designed to do is it is designed to make the practice of sending

901
01:16:16,582 --> 01:16:21,982
a communication into the United States politically impossible. It's not impossible, right? Of course,

902
01:16:21,982 --> 01:16:27,302
they're sovereign nations. They can do it if they want. But when they do it, it attaches a price to

903
01:16:27,302 --> 01:16:32,762
it. And that price is so significant. So let's say you did it to Facebook, just an example, or Meta.

904
01:16:33,202 --> 01:16:40,342
Meta's revenues per annum are $164 billion per year, right? And the UK's fines are the greater

905
01:16:40,342 --> 01:16:47,782
of $25 million or 10% of your global revenue under the Online Safety Act. So an Online Safety

906
01:16:47,782 --> 01:16:54,422
Act fine against Meta theoretically caps out at $16.4 billion. Now you stand up Granite. So the

907
01:16:54,422 --> 01:16:58,382
Granite Act is here and you have a damages mechanism, which is 3x the threatened fine.

908
01:16:58,382 --> 01:17:08,602
Well, 3x of 16.4 is 49.2. So that's a $49.2 billion statutory damages claim that Meta can

909
01:17:08,602 --> 01:17:13,082
bring against the British government, which is roughly equal to the sum total of British

910
01:17:13,082 --> 01:17:18,282
government's sovereign assets held in American banks. So you're the British government. Do you

911
01:17:18,282 --> 01:17:22,682
send Meta the letter? No, you do not. And then let's look at the lower end of the spectrum,

912
01:17:22,822 --> 01:17:28,042
a website like Kiwi Farms, which is a tiny little internet discussion board, not very active,

913
01:17:28,242 --> 01:17:33,122
not widely ranked, nothing like that. They received a letter from Ofcom and you say, okay,

914
01:17:33,302 --> 01:17:38,162
well, the letters to Kiwi Farms, $10 million per letter or 3x the maximum threatened fine.

915
01:17:38,162 --> 01:17:42,902
The revenues are practically zero for all intents and purposes. So let's look at what the

916
01:17:42,902 --> 01:17:48,842
maximum fine is $25 million, $75 million damages claim. Great. You send the letter to Kiwi Farms,

917
01:17:49,142 --> 01:17:54,822
they can retire now, right? So it's because they've just got a $75 million claim against you,

918
01:17:54,862 --> 01:17:59,382
which is enforceable against sovereign assets. So it's about changing the mathematics. And the math

919
01:17:59,382 --> 01:18:04,722
in this case is not, you know, bomber crews lost per unit of target destruction. It is legal cost

920
01:18:04,722 --> 01:18:08,902
incurred per unit of censorship achieved, right? And they are the attacker and we are the defense.

921
01:18:09,462 --> 01:18:15,002
And so from their perspective, at the moment, the censorship achieved is very high and the

922
01:18:15,002 --> 01:18:15,902
cost is very low.

923
01:18:16,462 --> 01:18:20,262
And the Granite Act flips that on its head because it says the censorship achieved will

924
01:18:20,262 --> 01:18:22,562
be very low and the cost will be very high.

925
01:18:22,942 --> 01:18:26,422
So suddenly every letter that goes out has a very major cost attached to it.

926
01:18:26,422 --> 01:18:31,122
Even if you assume that, let's say the damages were nil, but you created a cause of action

927
01:18:31,122 --> 01:18:35,262
and every company in America benefited from it, a federal court action, let's say it costs

928
01:18:35,262 --> 01:18:36,502
a million dollars to do this.

929
01:18:36,562 --> 01:18:37,222
Let's say it's simple.

930
01:18:37,222 --> 01:18:40,642
and you've got 100,000 American companies they want to enforce against.

931
01:18:40,962 --> 01:18:45,762
That's $100 billion in legal fees alone that they're potentially facing in American court.

932
01:18:45,942 --> 01:18:49,962
The scheme immediately becomes unsustainable as a practical and tactical matter.

933
01:18:50,082 --> 01:18:53,982
At the moment, they could conceivably send a censorship letter to every American company,

934
01:18:54,242 --> 01:18:57,602
and the only cost would be finding the contact details of all these companies,

935
01:18:57,762 --> 01:19:00,882
populating the field of the emails, running a macro or something,

936
01:19:01,002 --> 01:19:02,582
filling in the blanks and sending it out.

937
01:19:02,882 --> 01:19:04,282
And they could do that, no problem.

938
01:19:04,502 --> 01:19:05,282
It would cost them nothing.

939
01:19:05,282 --> 01:19:09,662
So this turns around and says every time you do it, there's an enormous cost attached to it.

940
01:19:09,662 --> 01:19:14,882
And by doing that, the amount of censorship inbound that we should get should be very,

941
01:19:14,882 --> 01:19:30,820
very close to zero if not zero If they wanted to try to cross into the United States after that go for it Great I take the case on contingency I do it for free I say great I get an option maybe that I can collect assets at a British bank

942
01:19:30,820 --> 01:19:37,340
and I'll take 30% of that as my fee, maybe 50% even. And I'll do that for free. So suddenly what

943
01:19:37,340 --> 01:19:41,560
you've got is the economics are completely reversed. So I would expect, and that's what,

944
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:48,680
Greta is not designed to tell a foreign country you can't govern your conduct within your own borders or the United States can tell you what to do.

945
01:19:49,040 --> 01:19:50,160
It's a very simple law.

946
01:19:50,240 --> 01:19:55,760
It says if you send this message into the United States, this is the result.

947
01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:59,120
And it's your decision as a sovereign nation whether you want to do that.

948
01:19:59,540 --> 01:20:02,320
And I think that's a good outcome.

949
01:20:02,480 --> 01:20:08,320
I think it is very likely to bring censorship requests to Americans to zero or very close to it.

950
01:20:08,740 --> 01:20:11,580
And then if the Europeans want to censor their own people, they'll have to do it themselves.

951
01:20:13,740 --> 01:20:17,080
Yeah, no, first, I just got to say, I love this.

952
01:20:17,420 --> 01:20:20,260
Like this is the hearing more about this, learning more about this.

953
01:20:20,540 --> 01:20:21,820
It's just really quite brilliant.

954
01:20:21,820 --> 01:20:24,420
Like this, as you said, it flips the economics around.

955
01:20:24,900 --> 01:20:30,080
It creates an asymmetric advantage for American companies, right, which is what it should be.

956
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:34,340
Because, again, they're trying to come into our, let's say, territory in cyberspace.

957
01:20:34,900 --> 01:20:36,240
And that's just beautiful.

958
01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:42,680
And again, it's making it way, way too costly for them and risky for them to execute any of these attacks.

959
01:20:43,080 --> 01:20:48,460
What they didn't realize is that we have an asymmetric advantage now and they're and they're paying for it politically.

960
01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:52,500
Right. But Granite puts a real financial price on it as well.

961
01:20:52,620 --> 01:20:55,920
When we sued Ofcom in D.C. federal court, we did not ask for damages.

962
01:20:55,920 --> 01:20:59,180
We just asked for clarification that the orders were not validly served.

963
01:20:59,580 --> 01:21:03,740
And if they had been served, which I don't think they have been, that they'd be unconstitutional.

964
01:21:03,740 --> 01:21:10,520
if so. So from or at least unconstitutional for the court to to enforce. So this, though,

965
01:21:11,020 --> 01:21:16,020
completely changes the game because it says, listen, you attempt this behavior, you attempt

966
01:21:16,020 --> 01:21:20,060
to touch an American. If you don't attempt to touch an American, nothing nothing will happen

967
01:21:20,060 --> 01:21:23,780
to you. Right. We'll live peacefully. Brotherhood of nations, all that jazz. You cross our border

968
01:21:23,780 --> 01:21:27,620
and send a message into our country that does this consequences, big consequences,

969
01:21:28,060 --> 01:21:32,540
immediate consequences, expensive consequences. And that's not something that they're used to,

970
01:21:32,540 --> 01:21:36,960
which means that if that came in and it also it kind of gives them an off ramp because i think that

971
01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:42,620
i think that the uk and the eu know in their heart of hearts i mean the uk definitely knows

972
01:21:42,620 --> 01:21:47,000
in their heart of hearts because i'm sure they've been advised on this um they definitely know that

973
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:51,400
they're not going to be able to get their orders enforced here for sure they have run that analysis

974
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:55,580
now that they've attempted to enforce on four targets they've been resisted in american courts

975
01:21:55,580 --> 01:21:59,220
they've been resisted in a public fashion i'm sure they've gained this out and they've learned

976
01:21:59,220 --> 01:22:05,140
right this isn't going to work they cannot lose to a solo practitioner right that like that that

977
01:22:05,140 --> 01:22:10,520
is not going to fly in westminster if one guy or two guys myself and ron if we beat them on these

978
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:15,940
four cases um that's it's not that's not something that they can tolerate politically if congress

979
01:22:15,940 --> 01:22:19,500
turns around and says hey guess what here's a law it's impossible you know what the uk can then go

980
01:22:19,500 --> 01:22:26,340
ah those unreasonable americans those crazy cowboys you know look what they did they enacted

981
01:22:26,340 --> 01:22:30,300
this rule oh well we don't have to enforce it anymore against the americans because we can't

982
01:22:30,300 --> 01:22:35,320
right so i think ultimately it actually might be something they want to see because it would it

983
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:40,620
would remove the burden of their having to keep running into this brick wall at top speed where

984
01:22:40,620 --> 01:22:46,260
a bunch of american solos are just publishing their correspondence to on x and saying lol every

985
01:22:46,260 --> 01:22:51,240
time we receive the letter it was embarrassing fundamentally uh it's like it's fundamentally

986
01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:56,260
it's fundamentally extremely embarrassing that you have an entire country. I mean, today they

987
01:22:56,260 --> 01:23:00,220
talked about this one client. It came up in Parliament, in Prime Minister's questions.

988
01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:04,200
They were wasting parliamentary time on an American target, one of my clients,

989
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:10,000
that has already geo-blocked the UK. They've already blocked UK IP ranges as far as best they

990
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:16,000
can. But a group of political activists were so upset that they didn't get a scalp, that they

991
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:22,000
forced their communications regulator, Ofcom, to reopen the file on them, despite the fact that the

992
01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:26,760
UK is already blocked, and they're demanding that they get a court order to block them again,

993
01:23:26,900 --> 01:23:31,000
or criminal charges against them, despite the fact that they've already blocked the country.

994
01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:35,540
And they are so mad about it that it came up in prime minister's questions, and a government

995
01:23:35,540 --> 01:23:41,580
minister, right, the minister for science information and technology, gave a whole

996
01:23:41,580 --> 01:23:47,220
fiery speech about it in the chamber, wasting parliamentary time on an American website that

997
01:23:47,220 --> 01:23:51,760
has already blocked the country because they are so desperate. They're so embarrassed, I think,

998
01:23:51,840 --> 01:23:55,780
that they can't get their orders enforced. And they're so desperate to show that they've got

999
01:23:55,780 --> 01:23:59,500
some kind of a spine and that this law actually works, that they're going to go get a bunch of

1000
01:23:59,500 --> 01:24:02,420
bits of paper issued by an English court and they're going to wave them around like they've

1001
01:24:02,420 --> 01:24:05,380
achieved anything when in fact they've achieved precisely nothing because the country's already

1002
01:24:05,380 --> 01:24:11,160
blocked. So it's the weirdest political thing I have ever seen watching the UK,

1003
01:24:11,580 --> 01:24:16,400
try to intimidate these Americans into silence. And you go to these companies and you say, well,

1004
01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:20,700
what do you want to do about this? And they're just like, let's not ignore them because that

1005
01:24:20,700 --> 01:24:24,040
doesn't get us anywhere, but definitely write back to them and tell them to buzz off.

1006
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:30,520
It's the strangest situation that I've ever been in where basically an entire country and its media

1007
01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:35,680
class are ignoring the fact that their flagship online safety law is being laughed at in the

1008
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:41,340
United States and the emperor has no clothes. And still 11 months later, nobody can admit it.

1009
01:24:41,580 --> 01:24:44,440
Um, it's a very strange, it's a very, very strange situation.

1010
01:24:44,440 --> 01:24:47,500
And I suspect I'll never see anything like it for the rest of my natural life.

1011
01:24:48,460 --> 01:24:52,220
What a time to be alive and kind of at the, uh, at the epicenter of this.

1012
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:54,740
I mean, it's, it's just, it's just wild to me.

1013
01:24:54,740 --> 01:24:56,360
And I want to be conscious of your time here.

1014
01:24:56,380 --> 01:24:57,840
You still have just a couple more minutes.

1015
01:24:59,080 --> 01:24:59,400
Okay.

1016
01:24:59,820 --> 01:25:02,660
So, because I wanted to maybe get a chance to ask you on something else.

1017
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:06,580
We were talking at the start of this, we had a couple of technical difficulties, but we

1018
01:25:06,580 --> 01:25:07,600
were going to be streaming on Noster.

1019
01:25:07,700 --> 01:25:09,340
I think it may have actually ended up streaming on there.

1020
01:25:09,340 --> 01:25:13,540
But moral of the story here is, so there's companies, right?

1021
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:17,740
And then there's open protocols for communication.

1022
01:25:17,900 --> 01:25:18,980
There's a number of them now.

1023
01:25:19,780 --> 01:25:21,560
Noster is the one I spend the most time on personally.

1024
01:25:22,100 --> 01:25:39,140
But I'm curious if this is something where, you know, it's a sort of a, I could see the regulators in the EU and UK and Australia really not liking these open protocols where many different, you know, dozens or hundreds of different applications and end clients are being built on top of them.

1025
01:25:39,140 --> 01:25:43,380
that people can access without providing any, any personal information whatsoever.

1026
01:25:43,620 --> 01:25:44,380
No data collected.

1027
01:25:44,820 --> 01:25:46,020
Don't even need an email.

1028
01:25:46,200 --> 01:25:47,020
Like there is nothing.

1029
01:25:48,100 --> 01:25:51,620
Do you think this is something that they start to go after in some of these jurisdictions

1030
01:25:51,620 --> 01:25:56,540
because this, I mean, this just really flies in the face of everything that they're doing?

1031
01:25:57,460 --> 01:25:58,240
Not yet.

1032
01:25:58,240 --> 01:26:04,060
I think that at the moment, the small, I mean, the smaller social is a kill zone for startups

1033
01:26:04,060 --> 01:26:05,740
and new companies and new protocols.

1034
01:26:05,740 --> 01:26:09,060
It's very, very difficult to compete with the network effects.

1035
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:11,220
And this is not like a defeatist viewpoint.

1036
01:26:11,340 --> 01:26:11,920
It's just explaining.

1037
01:26:12,260 --> 01:26:12,660
No, no, it's just true.

1038
01:26:12,980 --> 01:26:14,700
Big companies, right, have network effects.

1039
01:26:14,920 --> 01:26:17,020
Those network effects create feedback loops.

1040
01:26:17,200 --> 01:26:28,900
Those feedback loops are very, very difficult to replicate because the number of humans in the world is limited and they have limited time and attention and space in their head to interact with various social apps.

1041
01:26:29,420 --> 01:26:33,040
So it's very difficult for something like a Noster or something like Farcaster, I think.

1042
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:35,320
So Farcaster just exited social effectively.

1043
01:26:35,740 --> 01:26:39,060
And they're just becoming a wallet if memory serves. And that was the Ethereum.

1044
01:26:40,500 --> 01:26:45,180
Excuse me. That was the Ethereum. That was the Ethereum based social network.

1045
01:26:45,440 --> 01:26:48,080
And they said, listen, this isn't going to work. This isn't the future for us.

1046
01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:50,580
And they were wildly successful for a while there, particularly during COVID.

1047
01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:55,480
So it's really, really difficult to break in. It is absolutely essential that these tools continue to be used.

1048
01:26:55,480 --> 01:27:08,360
There are some companies that were more on the free speech side of things that absolutely survived on Bitcoin during mass financial services deplatforming events, particularly of the type that occurred during COVID.

1049
01:27:08,840 --> 01:27:11,580
So it's very much something which is a huge problem.

1050
01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:15,000
And Bitcoin is a reason that we have free speech on the web today.

1051
01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:21,680
It's because Bitcoin helped ensure that some of these smaller companies survived some of the darker days.

1052
01:27:21,820 --> 01:27:23,440
And so the more tooling we have, the better.

1053
01:27:23,440 --> 01:27:30,640
I don't think they're focusing on it because ultimately they're seeking minimum effort, maximum social control is the objective.

1054
01:27:30,900 --> 01:27:42,040
And so if you're going after smaller platforms, I mean, they picked the four platforms they picked for enforcement were not selected because in the UK's case, they were not selected because they were uniquely dangerous.

1055
01:27:42,040 --> 01:27:45,720
They were not selected because certainly not because they were breaking any American law because they're not.

1056
01:27:46,100 --> 01:27:54,660
They were selected by political activists because they were regarded as incubators for ideas that the kind of people who run the UK's communications regulator and work for the UK's government disagree with.

1057
01:27:55,180 --> 01:27:57,260
And so that's that's my read of the situation.

1058
01:27:57,260 --> 01:28:00,580
And they were all American. Right. So they were beyond the UK's jurisdictional reach.

1059
01:28:00,900 --> 01:28:06,360
So I don't view that. I view their enforcement attempts as being very politically motivated.

1060
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:09,740
If you ask them about it, they'll say, no, of course, it's about harms and all the rest of it.

1061
01:28:09,740 --> 01:28:17,720
So how do you define harm? And then you go and dig down a little bit and you figure out what these people, you know, what their character structure is and what politics they believe.

1062
01:28:17,980 --> 01:28:21,380
And their politics directly influence the kind of content they want removed from the Internet.

1063
01:28:21,980 --> 01:28:30,740
So I don't think that targeting a decentralized infrastructure is something particularly on the social side of things is something which is a high priority for them.

1064
01:28:31,000 --> 01:28:36,900
But if you look at how they're positioning, for example, vis-a-vis app stores, they want to be able to have deplatforming orders served on app stores.

1065
01:28:36,900 --> 01:28:40,280
That's a power which is within, you know, that's within the UK's power to do.

1066
01:28:40,380 --> 01:28:42,160
You do that, Noster's gone, right?

1067
01:28:42,200 --> 01:28:45,080
And then you're just using Noster through a progressive web app, which is no good.

1068
01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:51,320
So they're going to try to get control of all of these, you know, central nodes, which

1069
01:28:51,320 --> 01:28:53,640
are used for distributing software as well.

1070
01:28:53,980 --> 01:28:59,280
And then if there's an app which doesn't comply, they will target that node with the censorship

1071
01:28:59,280 --> 01:29:00,920
order in order to target the app.

1072
01:29:00,980 --> 01:29:03,260
So they'll say to Apple, listen, X isn't complying with the rules.

1073
01:29:03,400 --> 01:29:04,560
Apple, you've got to take this down.

1074
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:20,660
And so what we're doing, right, part of the Granite Act is designed to immunize everything American, the Google Play Store, the Apple Store, all the rest of it, to protect all American infrastructure from the kinds of intrusions that they're currently only targeting companies with.

1075
01:29:20,740 --> 01:29:23,940
They could also target Apple, Google, something like that.

1076
01:29:24,500 --> 01:29:27,180
And so, you know, that's part of the wider fight.

1077
01:29:27,180 --> 01:29:41,680
But no, the more the merrier. We definitely need more experiments to be attempted in order to ideally get to an end state where you do have a free speech, decentralized social app of some kind, which is very difficult to kill or censor.

1078
01:29:42,740 --> 01:29:47,360
But, you know, whether NOSTER is going to be the thing that does that or something else will be remains to be seen.

1079
01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:52,940
yeah no i i appreciate the perspective on it because i've been kind of curious if this is

1080
01:29:52,940 --> 01:29:58,720
something it's it's still i think you know small enough where it's like not even on their radar

1081
01:29:58,720 --> 01:30:03,420
probably yeah at least we have some some uh some testing of the fact that like for instance you know

1082
01:30:03,420 --> 01:30:09,480
uh damas one of the earliest nostre clients was banned by the chinese uh app store like i mean

1083
01:30:09,480 --> 01:30:15,340
chinese flavor of the apple app store immediately upon getting released and because downloads spiked

1084
01:30:15,340 --> 01:30:20,460
like crazy when it went live. But then people routed around, they either, you know, they already

1085
01:30:20,460 --> 01:30:23,840
had it downloaded some of them, or they just use different, you know, apps. And that's kind of like

1086
01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:27,900
the beauty of it. It's like, you know, as long as you have a protocol based communication system,

1087
01:30:27,900 --> 01:30:32,000
you can always build new apps. It's a, it's a Hydra, right? You cut off one head to pop up in

1088
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:38,100
its place. So there's something there. I wanted to maybe, maybe round out with just something that

1089
01:30:38,100 --> 01:30:43,860
you had, you had retweeted this. Some, I swear, some of the EU bureaucrats that I see, I keep

1090
01:30:43,860 --> 01:30:48,320
thinking they're parody accounts. Like I keep thinking this must, like, there's no way any

1091
01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:52,820
actual person thinks like this. This must be like, this must be a joke, right? But this guy,

1092
01:30:53,460 --> 01:31:01,220
Gunther Fellinger Jan said, shall the EU expropriate Elon Musk and hand over X to E,

1093
01:31:01,380 --> 01:31:06,500
oh, and I've lost the, I've lost it again. Here we go. To the EU public foundation to serve as

1094
01:31:06,500 --> 01:31:18,958
infrastructure for a free public debate for a free world based on European decency European and decency morality and reasonable regulation And so safeguard this wonderful platform from ever more extremist Elon Musk

1095
01:31:19,078 --> 01:31:21,658
And it got like 95 percent of people voted no.

1096
01:31:21,778 --> 01:31:26,838
I assume the five percent that voted yes were like fellow, you know, people on the EU's payroll.

1097
01:31:27,098 --> 01:31:29,518
But like this, this was just insane to me.

1098
01:31:29,518 --> 01:31:35,438
Like, do they actually think that this is that they in any way, first of all, that that's even a reasonable thing to say?

1099
01:31:35,438 --> 01:31:39,738
because your response was like, look, you don't know how this works.

1100
01:31:39,818 --> 01:31:41,158
This is a U.S. company.

1101
01:31:41,238 --> 01:31:43,298
These are U.S. servers, U.S. employees.

1102
01:31:43,898 --> 01:31:46,418
You can't just take this.

1103
01:31:46,478 --> 01:31:49,338
And somebody else is like, well, maybe we'll just recreate X in the EU.

1104
01:31:49,758 --> 01:31:51,978
And it's like, oh, okay, so tell me you don't understand network effects

1105
01:31:51,978 --> 01:31:53,598
without telling me you don't understand network effects.

1106
01:31:53,678 --> 01:31:54,958
Nobody's going to use your surveillance.

1107
01:31:54,958 --> 01:31:58,838
If EU had any ability to recreate X, they would have done it by now.

1108
01:31:59,198 --> 01:31:59,618
They don't.

1109
01:31:59,778 --> 01:32:02,538
I mean, the reality is if they had an Internet industry,

1110
01:32:02,598 --> 01:32:05,018
if they were able to build an Internet industry, they would have done.

1111
01:32:05,438 --> 01:32:09,098
And a lot of what they're doing now is because the Internet has grown beyond their control.

1112
01:32:09,218 --> 01:32:10,658
They're not doing any domestic innovation.

1113
01:32:10,978 --> 01:32:12,778
And they feel like they want a piece of the action.

1114
01:32:12,898 --> 01:32:18,958
And the way that they're going to get that piece of the action is by extorting American companies with fines and by trying to burden us with regulations.

1115
01:32:18,958 --> 01:32:26,758
So that we're dragged down along with them into whatever hole they're choosing to hide themselves in as the world race is ahead.

1116
01:32:26,758 --> 01:32:35,398
So like the European thing, particularly people who are very patriotic about the European Union as a concept, I find very unusual.

1117
01:32:36,438 --> 01:32:40,258
You know, I'm actually a citizen of the European Union in addition to being a citizen of the United States.

1118
01:32:41,218 --> 01:32:48,598
And I don't feel any particularly, you know, the ode to joy is the national anthem or the anthem of the EU.

1119
01:32:48,838 --> 01:32:50,838
And that's a beautiful, wonderful piece of music.

1120
01:32:50,838 --> 01:32:59,278
Right. However, it's not a beautiful, wonderful piece of music because I stand up and think of the Burleymont building in Brussels every time that that it plays.

1121
01:32:59,278 --> 01:33:05,658
Right. It's because that's it's it's not the EU tries to appropriate to itself.

1122
01:33:05,778 --> 01:33:13,278
It is a bureaucracy and it tries to appropriate to itself all of the glories of European culture and civilization because it has the name Europe in the name.

1123
01:33:13,498 --> 01:33:18,498
And it happens to include most of the European nations. But it is not coextensive with Europe.

1124
01:33:18,498 --> 01:33:20,818
It's just a bureaucracy that's sucking the life out of it.

1125
01:33:21,338 --> 01:33:30,898
So but some people get confused by the propaganda and they decide that, you know, Europe is something that they want to have an identity with and attach their identity to.

1126
01:33:30,978 --> 01:33:38,498
And that's that's their decision. Ultimately, you know, Europe can can screech and kick and scream and do whatever they want.

1127
01:33:38,638 --> 01:33:46,758
But I'm pretty convinced the United States is preparing a robust legislative response and executive branch response to European censorship.

1128
01:33:46,758 --> 01:33:51,918
And I think that the United States is going to, if the Europeans really want to make a fight out of it, that's their prerogative.

1129
01:33:51,918 --> 01:33:55,398
But as between the two places, I think the United States will prevail.

1130
01:33:56,098 --> 01:33:59,378
It won't be pleasant. It won't be fun. It might get a little ugly.

1131
01:33:59,898 --> 01:34:09,318
But ultimately, I suspect the United States interests in protecting its economy are sufficiently non-negotiable to us and sufficiently negotiable to the EU.

1132
01:34:09,858 --> 01:34:12,038
That although, I mean, the UK is a prime example.

1133
01:34:12,498 --> 01:34:13,178
They're running around.

1134
01:34:13,278 --> 01:34:21,498
If you talk to people in the UK about my client's resistance to their laws, they say, oh, well, the Online Safety Act, you're ignoring the Online Safety Act.

1135
01:34:21,638 --> 01:34:22,438
I'm like, okay, fine.

1136
01:34:22,838 --> 01:34:26,818
The Online Safety Act is two years old, and it's a statute that you just tried to enforce.

1137
01:34:27,238 --> 01:34:31,158
And my client is the first enforcement target you've ever tried to enforce it against, and you failed.

1138
01:34:31,638 --> 01:34:34,218
Well, my client's invoking the U.S. Constitution.

1139
01:34:34,818 --> 01:34:39,158
And the First Amendment to that Constitution is over 230 years old.

1140
01:34:39,338 --> 01:34:41,038
And it's not just a statute.

1141
01:34:41,038 --> 01:34:45,378
It is part of the foundational, you know, legal structure of the United States.

1142
01:34:46,078 --> 01:34:50,558
So as, you know, in terms of who's ignoring what, you know, an American ignoring the Online

1143
01:34:50,558 --> 01:34:53,878
Safety Act is a lot less delusional than a Brit ignoring the First Amendment.

1144
01:34:54,438 --> 01:35:01,178
And just in terms of the relative importance of those rules and which one has been operative

1145
01:35:01,178 --> 01:35:02,778
for what length of time.

1146
01:35:03,678 --> 01:35:08,758
And yeah, so I just think that there's a lot of willful blindness on their side to how

1147
01:35:08,758 --> 01:35:13,278
important free speech is to the United States, how structurally central it is to the way that we do

1148
01:35:13,278 --> 01:35:17,258
things here in the United States, and how unacceptable it is to us in the United States

1149
01:35:17,258 --> 01:35:22,098
to give it up. So they're going to learn that over the course of the next months and years,

1150
01:35:22,558 --> 01:35:28,258
just quite what third rail they've stepped on. And they'll either learn their lesson or they won't.

1151
01:35:28,698 --> 01:35:33,538
If they don't learn the lesson, I think the United States will wind up raising statutory shields and

1152
01:35:33,538 --> 01:35:37,938
imposing trade barriers and all the rest of it. But at some point, I think Europe is going to say,

1153
01:35:37,938 --> 01:35:42,698
okay enough is enough cry uncle and they're going to let us continue you know they're going to assume

1154
01:35:42,698 --> 01:35:47,878
that we can continue our relationship as allies and friends with americans enjoying their free

1155
01:35:47,878 --> 01:35:52,438
speech rights in europe doing whatever domestic censorship it needs to do um but the current

1156
01:35:52,438 --> 01:35:55,758
situation is europe has decided they want to project their sovereignty into our borders

1157
01:35:55,758 --> 01:36:02,038
and that's just not going to fly so it's that that's where we are um and yeah that's where we

1158
01:36:02,038 --> 01:36:07,698
are there's not not a whole we're we're still mid-flight on the u.s response to all of this

1159
01:36:07,698 --> 01:36:11,278
I think actually we're actually fairly early in the U.S. response to this.

1160
01:36:11,458 --> 01:36:16,398
I think the U.S. response will likely be concluded by the end of Q2 of 2026.

1161
01:36:16,538 --> 01:36:19,018
I think this will be in the history books done and dusted.

1162
01:36:19,658 --> 01:36:29,398
I very much doubt Europe will escalate if the U.S. government does everything that it needs to do to prevent the Europeans from enforcing here, because I don't think it's in their interest to escalate.

1163
01:36:29,458 --> 01:36:35,658
Because, again, at the moment, it's in their interest to be as aggressive as they want because the math works out in their favor.

1164
01:36:35,658 --> 01:36:42,198
You can send a letter to X demanding $100 million or $200 million, and it doesn't cost you anything to do it.

1165
01:36:42,538 --> 01:36:53,078
If the United States creates shield laws and shield legislation, you send $100 million demand, you've got a $300 million counterclaim, and you've got a rule in the United States which says that X is immune from this kind of stuff.

1166
01:36:53,638 --> 01:37:05,538
I just don't see the point in sending the censorship notice at that point, and they'll figure out some accommodation diplomatically between the two federations to make it politically acceptable to the Europeans to back down.

1167
01:37:05,658 --> 01:37:08,618
President, this has been awesome.

1168
01:37:09,038 --> 01:37:11,198
Seriously, this has been so fascinating.

1169
01:37:11,518 --> 01:37:13,938
Thank you for this incredible deep dive.

1170
01:37:14,078 --> 01:37:18,898
I could honestly, I've got about eight more hours of questions, but just glad that there

1171
01:37:18,898 --> 01:37:24,298
are such based lawyers representing the interests of Americans and American companies from the

1172
01:37:24,298 --> 01:37:27,758
would-be totalitarian overreach of our friends across the pond.

1173
01:37:27,758 --> 01:37:34,018
It sounds like we may someday soon have to go, perhaps not save them in a physical kinetic

1174
01:37:34,018 --> 01:37:37,838
war, but save them in a war of freedom of speech and crackdown on that.

1175
01:37:38,098 --> 01:37:40,578
So, you know, at least we can still export American values.

1176
01:37:41,098 --> 01:37:43,358
That's the that's the next mission after we're done.

1177
01:37:43,358 --> 01:37:44,198
But no, thank you.

1178
01:37:44,318 --> 01:37:51,418
And thanks to everyone on X in particular for reposting and retweeting without everybody

1179
01:37:51,418 --> 01:37:54,678
chipping in there a little bit and helping get this noticed.

1180
01:37:55,278 --> 01:37:57,418
We wouldn't it literally it comes down to everyone.

1181
01:37:57,578 --> 01:38:02,938
Every retweet, every like, every comment, every reply, everything has helped us get

1182
01:38:02,938 --> 01:38:08,478
the attention of the right people in government and help to convince them in particular that this

1183
01:38:08,478 --> 01:38:12,858
is a good idea. Because you put something like the Granite Act out, it goes viral. People start

1184
01:38:12,858 --> 01:38:18,938
replying to Elon and J.D. Vance and President Trump saying, where is it? Why don't we get it?

1185
01:38:19,298 --> 01:38:22,978
And that communicates to the U.S. government, hey, this is a good idea. Maybe you want to do it.

1186
01:38:23,558 --> 01:38:27,198
So now really thank you to everybody. This has been a collective team effort.

1187
01:38:28,718 --> 01:38:31,578
There have been a handful of lawyers obviously doing a lot of the legal work,

1188
01:38:31,578 --> 01:38:39,918
but everyone on the internet has helped us be seen by the U.S. federal government and is still helping us convince the U.S. federal government that this is a good idea.

1189
01:38:40,358 --> 01:38:44,938
And we're not done yet, right? We got to get this plane landed.

1190
01:38:45,438 --> 01:38:49,558
And, you know, I think we will, but we're going to keep pushing until such time as we do.

1191
01:38:50,758 --> 01:38:56,258
So, I mean, just great example that a bunch of Anans on the internet can make a lot of noise and make a difference.

1192
01:38:56,458 --> 01:38:59,718
And, you know, lending your voice and supporting these things does actually help.

1193
01:38:59,718 --> 01:39:06,398
Is there anywhere you want to send people or any way that they can support you, the work you're doing, anything else?

1194
01:39:06,458 --> 01:39:09,818
I mean, is it just really by trolling European and U.K. politicians online?

1195
01:39:10,118 --> 01:39:14,058
And where do you want to send people or what else can people do to support this effort?

1196
01:39:14,058 --> 01:39:19,058
I definitely would not recommend trolling European and U.K. politicians online.

1197
01:39:19,198 --> 01:39:22,098
That would be an absolutely terrible thing that you definitely should not do.

1198
01:39:22,098 --> 01:39:28,978
um we should you know when when if and when granite becomes a bill uh if and when it gets

1199
01:39:28,978 --> 01:39:32,898
introduced in either the house or the senate and i'm not sure that that will happen or what form it

1200
01:39:32,898 --> 01:39:36,598
will take but assuming that it does and substantially the form that we hope it does

1201
01:39:36,598 --> 01:39:41,778
when that happens call your representative uh and and call it like don't send them an email pick up

1202
01:39:41,778 --> 01:39:45,898
the phone and call them and say you know i want the granite act foreign censorship shield law don't

1203
01:39:45,898 --> 01:39:48,838
do that today because they're not going to know what it is because the bill hasn't been introduced

1204
01:39:49,258 --> 01:39:50,918
But when it gets introduced, please do that.

1205
01:39:51,478 --> 01:39:58,518
And apart from that, you know, get together with other people who care about free speech, network, do things in person, become an activist, get active.

1206
01:39:59,258 --> 01:40:08,498
There are plenty of ways to fight for free speech and get involved with organizations that support free speech, even if it's just joining their newsletters so that you know what to talk about, what the issues are.

1207
01:40:09,038 --> 01:40:13,638
You know, get the regular newsletters from the EFF, for example, the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

1208
01:40:13,638 --> 01:40:14,718
They're pretty good on free speech.

1209
01:40:14,718 --> 01:40:22,018
So that way when you're going through daily life in the world as you talk to your friends, you have an educated viewpoint and you can teach other people about this.

1210
01:40:22,098 --> 01:40:24,618
But literally anything that you can do is useful.

1211
01:40:25,358 --> 01:40:33,658
And so and anything that you do is appreciated by those of us who, you know, I'm cognizant that, you know, for whatever reason, I've managed to catch these cases.

1212
01:40:33,918 --> 01:40:37,438
So, you know, it's I find myself central to a lot of these discussions.

1213
01:40:37,778 --> 01:40:39,558
And people often ask, like, what can I do?

1214
01:40:39,558 --> 01:40:41,038
And it's like literally anything.

1215
01:40:41,038 --> 01:40:48,438
A year ago, I was just some guy taking clients pro bono, you know, and now it's this issue has become much more politically significant.

1216
01:40:48,858 --> 01:40:53,658
Did I plan for that? Absolutely not. I was just there. Right. And I just put my head down and worked.

1217
01:40:53,858 --> 01:40:58,498
And you don't really focus on the bigger picture. You just say, OK, here's a strategy. We're just going to grind, grind, grind, grind, grind.

1218
01:40:58,558 --> 01:41:03,238
And every day you try to move it forward an inch. Right. And you're not going to do everything overnight.

1219
01:41:03,838 --> 01:41:09,818
And the same is true for everybody else. You can just figure out what you know, what your lane is, get into it, stay in it and keep pushing.

1220
01:41:09,818 --> 01:41:14,538
and uh and sometimes that is you know if a bill gets published call your representative once a

1221
01:41:14,538 --> 01:41:20,218
day tell them hey this is something i want past and uh and that's you know well but we'll we'll

1222
01:41:20,218 --> 01:41:24,778
we'll cross that bridge when we get to it that's not a today issue so enjoy i think my advice to

1223
01:41:24,778 --> 01:41:29,258
everyone is enjoy your christmas holidays uh and don't worry about free speech too much i certainly

1224
01:41:29,258 --> 01:41:32,978
you know i think everybody's going to be pens down for a week or two and then we'll be right

1225
01:41:32,978 --> 01:41:37,818
at it right back at it in the new year there you go and you can just do things right you know it's

1226
01:41:37,818 --> 01:41:39,038
It's a great example.

1227
01:41:39,298 --> 01:41:41,558
But Preston, I really appreciate your time.

1228
01:41:41,758 --> 01:41:43,038
This was fascinating.

1229
01:41:43,558 --> 01:41:51,058
And yeah, we'd love to have you back on, hopefully, when this legislation is actually hitting the floor and we can do a push forward and get as many people as possible.

1230
01:41:51,078 --> 01:41:52,618
I'll come back on and we can walk right through it.

1231
01:41:52,658 --> 01:41:53,238
That'd be awesome.

1232
01:41:53,398 --> 01:41:54,438
That would be fantastic.

1233
01:41:54,858 --> 01:41:56,178
Really appreciate the time, Preston.

1234
01:41:56,218 --> 01:41:56,778
This was awesome.

1235
01:41:57,258 --> 01:41:57,558
Awesome.

1236
01:41:57,658 --> 01:41:57,958
Thank you.

1237
01:41:58,038 --> 01:41:58,558
Great to be here.

1238
01:41:58,998 --> 01:41:59,718
I had a great time.

1239
01:41:59,718 --> 01:42:11,478
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast.

1240
01:42:12,118 --> 01:42:16,078
Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening,

1241
01:42:16,498 --> 01:42:20,398
and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.

1242
01:42:20,398 --> 01:42:27,078
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash walker and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin.

1243
01:42:27,078 --> 01:42:35,498
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America and find this podcast on X and Instagram at Titcoin Podcast.

1244
01:42:36,238 --> 01:42:38,478
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links.

1245
01:42:38,598 --> 01:42:43,298
Head to substack.com slash at Walker America to get episodes emailed to you.

1246
01:42:43,758 --> 01:42:47,078
And head to Bitcoin Podcast dot net for everything else.

1247
01:42:47,638 --> 01:42:51,198
Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant.

1248
01:42:51,198 --> 01:42:56,818
So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast.

1249
01:42:57,078 --> 01:42:59,858
Until next time, stay free.