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They always say, oh, terrorism.

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What is terrorism?

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You know, maybe the actual terrorism is them completely sucking

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all of the energy out of our money and causing people

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where they can't even pay their bills.

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Like that causes real terror in the world.

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And who are the terrorists?

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The people who are diluting our money supply.

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So don't be mad at us because we're just going

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to a different solution that actually fucking works

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and we're not being robbed every day.

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We're the terrorists?

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No, you guys are the fucking terrorists.

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And we're just trying to protect our money

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from you. You psychopaths.

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Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.

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My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast.

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Bitcoin block height is 819040.

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And the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.

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Today's episode is Bitcoin talk, where

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I talk with my guest about Bitcoin and many other things

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as well.

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Today, that guest is Will Kasarin, AKA JB55.

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Will is the creator of Domus, an iOS client for Noster.

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It's my favorite way to use Noster.

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And it's also the app that jump-started the wider

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adoption and awareness of Noster back in December

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of last year.

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Will is a great dude whom I've had the pleasure of hanging out

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with at multiple conferences.

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And it was great to get him on the show.

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We covered a ton of topics in our talk

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from the events of the past year,

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like Elon censoring Noster and the CCP blacklisting in China,

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to current and future Noster developments,

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zaps and zapportizing, what's next for Domus, regulations,

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Bitcoin and monetary terrorism, and a whole lot more.

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If you're not familiar with Noster,

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you can check out the show notes where I have a link for you

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to download the Domus app, as well as a couple of Noster 101

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resources.

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I'll do a Noster 101 episode soon, I promise.

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I've just been slammed between baby preparations,

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fiat mining, and of course, knocking out

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a bunch of episodes of another fucking Bitcoin podcast.

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As always, you can watch the video version of this episode

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on rumble, YouTube or X by searching at Walker America,

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or listen on fountain.fm, or wherever you get your podcast,

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by searching for the Bitcoin podcast.

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If you listen to another fucking Bitcoin podcast on fountain,

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consider giving the show a boost or creating a clip

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of something you found interesting.

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If you haven't checked out fountain yet,

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I highly recommend it.

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You can send Bitcoin to your favorite podcasters

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and earn Bitcoin just for listening to the show.

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Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk

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with Will Kassering.

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How's it going, man?

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How have you been?

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Pretty good.

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Just having a burp, man?

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Oh, well, hey, cheers.

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I've got my Miller line.

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I've got a bottle of something stronger underneath my desk

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as well, just in case.

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It's always been a couple bottles under the desk.

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It doesn't hurt anything.

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But man, how was in Australia?

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Karl and I were bummed we couldn't make it,

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but with the baby popping out soon,

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it was going to be a little difficult.

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That's fair.

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Yeah, I mean, it's a completely different vibe from Costa Rica.

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It's in the wonderful city of Tokyo,

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and that was an amazing experience

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and getting to meet the actual local Japanese users who

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used Nostra completely differently from the way

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that we use it, which was really fascinating to learn,

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to see all that and to get ideas on how

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to kind of optimize our clients.

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So different how so in terms of their usage?

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Yeah, so they actually did a whole presentation on it,

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so I thought they were actually using a different client,

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just because you'll notice that sometimes when you're

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seeing Japanese text, they're not actually

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replying to anybody.

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And that's actually, but they're all just using

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DOM as an amethyst.

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So culturally, I guess it's kind of rude to reply directly.

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So they just kind of use it as a chat room,

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and they just kind of air reply to each other.

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Yeah, it's kind of strange, but it's just culturally different,

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I guess.

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Wow, so you're just, there is no reply

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guying or directly adding someone.

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It's more of just implied that this

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is part of the conversation that's going on.

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Yeah, and I imagine a part of it

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is because they're a relatively small community.

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I don't know if that would work at a larger scale,

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but for now, it's kind of working for them,

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and they seem to be happy using it that way.

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Dang, that's really cool.

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I watched a couple of the presentations

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I saw, Jack and Snowden's, obviously,

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because I think that was probably one of the most watched ones.

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But I also caught yours with Miljan and NVK.

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Enjoyed that one a lot as well, but I've

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still got a backlog of ones I want to go through and check out,

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because I know Rabil had one that people were saying

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was really solid and just providing some great context

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and advice moving forward.

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Were there any others that you'd be like,

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you should go and watch these top of the heap?

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I really like Alex Gleason's, because what he's doing

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is actually pretty important, and then that presentation

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really makes it clear that how important that is.

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The idea is that we're not isolated

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as a decentralized network.

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In some sense, all the decentralized networks are together.

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And the minute we start bridging with each other,

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then it becomes one big network.

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So he was arguing that Nostra's a part of the Fediverse

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already.

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Interesting.

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I think they're part of the Fedors,

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but that's how you look at it, I guess, right?

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No, that's interesting.

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I mean, it's kind of a fair point that I guess,

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well, at least from the top-down perspective,

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like if you're thinking about from regulators' perspectives,

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looking at it's going to be centralized media

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or centralized social media and decentralized social media.

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Like these are going to automatically get bucketed

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together by the people that are hopefully not soon,

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but probably at some point going to start sniffing around

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a little bit more.

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I don't know.

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So that's interesting.

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It looked like you guys also had a pretty good time there.

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I saw some videos.

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They looked like there were some shenanigans to be had.

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Well, I didn't know, like, oh my god,

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like Wiz was really, really kind to our stay.

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He kind of put us up in the Grand Hyatt,

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and he treated us well.

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And I got to check out the Manpool offices.

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But yeah, you can get some, go to some pretty DGen stuff

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in Tokyo.

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So I got to experience some of that.

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That's amazing.

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Do I remember correctly?

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I mean, do you know some Japanese?

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Yeah, I don't that much.

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Just probably like a few phrases here and there.

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But it was enough to kind of get me through Japan

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and talk to some people.

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But it's hard because not many people speak English in Japan,

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even though they're supposed to learn it.

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If you don't have any Japanese knowledge,

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it can be kind of difficult to navigate.

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So yeah, just a little bit, but not too much.

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OK, I was, Carl and I went to Japan for our honeymoon.

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And I can definitely attest to the little English spoken.

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But I found people to be very nice and welcoming,

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despite there not being much of a language crossover.

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There were also like plenty of nice people

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who like we got lost in a couple of train stations there,

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like in the Tokyo Metro, because it's just huge.

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And some very nice guy carrying a baby

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was like speaking perfect English.

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And like, you look like you don't know where you're going.

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Can I help you?

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It's like that was very kind of you, sir,

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with your child in tow.

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No, it's an amazing city.

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It's like everyone's so polite.

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You know, people say that they're like rude,

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but they're not rude.

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It's just they're actually some of the nicest people

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like on the planet.

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Actually, sometimes they just get flustered

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with like dealing with us crazy foreigners all the time.

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But you know, otherwise, it's like such a clean city

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and everyone's so polite.

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So yeah, I definitely want to go back.

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Oh my God, it blew my mind.

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I was still smoking cigarettes at the time.

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And like the fact that it's like you do not smoke a cigarette

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walking down the street, like you want to smoke,

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you go to the designated smoking area.

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I pretty much just stopped smoking for that trip.

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But you know, because it was like, OK, this is this is not worth it.

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Worth it.

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So I guess the kind of social pressure there

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was pretty effective in that regard.

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But yeah, it's a it's a cool place.

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It's it's massive to what is it like 15 million people,

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something like that.

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Yeah, I mean, it's like I think it's like almost

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we're approaching the population of Canada and like a small city.

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It's it's mind blowing the scale.

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And what's even more impressive is the fact

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they keep everything so clean.

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You know, it's and I think it's a part of the fact

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that they don't really have anything to there's not

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me there's not much of a to go culture.

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You're not like taking food anywhere.

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No one carries around stuff like so there's like no garbage cans

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anywhere. But yeah, that's very clean.

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That was a trip. The lack of garbage cans.

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I know some of that is because there was a terrorist attack there.

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A while ago where there was I think it was like

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sarin gas was put in garbage cans.

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And so I heard that that is one of the reasons why they don't

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in addition to just being much tidier than let's say

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probably your average American or Canadian.

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I can't speak for those of you north of the border, but not the same.

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Yeah.

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Well, man, it's it's great to have you on here.

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We're just going to flow with this.

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I've got some questions for you just because

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I just put the feeler out there that you were coming on.

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And I know people always have questions for you.

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I've also got a list of enhancement requests.

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No, I'm just great.

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Absolutely kidding.

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Let them out. Let's go.

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No, no, no, I have no enhancement requests.

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Just keep doing whatever you think is best because it's working.

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But yeah, we'll we'll flow through this and have some fun

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along the way, I think. And yeah, I'll do just a quick intro

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and then we'll dive right in.

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Sound good. Sounds good.

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All right. Well, greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.

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My name is Walker, and this is the Bitcoin podcast.

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Today's episode is Bitcoin talk, but I have a feeling it will be more

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of a no-ster talk or just a talking talk.

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But I'm joined today by Domus creator Will

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Kasserin, aka JB 55, aka Wild Bill.

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I'm so I. Yeah, I just I decided it sounded like a cool nickname for you.

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And I know you're you were Bill Kasserin on the app store for a while now.

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Now, I think it's under Domus, but I remember seeing that I was like, Bill, OK,

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well, Wild Bill, it is. Well, my middle name is Robert.

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So my cousins used to call me Billy Bob.

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So if you really want to know me, you can call me Billy Bob.

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Wow. OK. I'm just going to save that one away in my back pocket for later.

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But you are creator of Domus, which pretty much launched,

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I think, the more mainstream awareness of of no-ster in general.

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I'm also going to say no-ster throughout.

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I know I know you're a no-ster guy and you definitely know better than me,

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but I can't change the habit at this point.

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It's just it's stuck as no-ster in my head.

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00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:44,960
So just a fair warning. That's fine.

256
00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:50,000
Yeah. But that was a it's we're coming up on like a year now,

257
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,560
since I joined no-ster, it was early December.

258
00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,040
That was right around, you know, I remember I joined.

259
00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:58,600
You gave me a warm welcome.

260
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,600
You and a couple others that were that were on there.

261
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,880
I was using Domus on test flight.

262
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,680
I had heard about no-ster maybe maybe six months before that,

263
00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:11,480
because I was just perusing Fiat Jaff skit hub as one does.

264
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,080
And I saw this no-ster thing and I was like, what what is this?

265
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,160
And then thought no more of it at the time.

266
00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:21,120
I was like, I'm not technical enough to understand what's going on with these things.

267
00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:23,360
So whatever.

268
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,840
Then saw you post about Domus and that it was on test flight.

269
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:28,760
And I was like, well, that's really neat. Let me try this out.

270
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,080
Carla was on there like a few hours later.

271
00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:33,080
We were playing around on there.

272
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,560
And then a couple days later, it was like Jack was on there kind of

273
00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:41,720
and posted about it on Twitter and things just blew up.

274
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,560
That was also right around the time that Elon decided

275
00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:53,400
it was a good idea to publicly name no-ster as the list of like no-no words

276
00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,000
and no-no apps that they were going to block and weren't going to link to,

277
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,960
which was just a like a strizand effect moment.

278
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,680
I think people were like, hold on, I've never even what is this no-ster?

279
00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:05,400
Like I've heard of all these other ones.

280
00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,000
I've never heard of no-ster, but maybe

281
00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,680
I would love to kind of hear how that time was for you.

282
00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,000
But maybe first we just back up a little bit

283
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,920
because I know you were a you worked on Bitcoin.

284
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,160
You were a developer on lightning.

285
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:29,160
You were working with a record label that was selling and utilizing Bitcoin

286
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,480
back in maybe 2017, 2018.

287
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,840
So I'm like, oh my God, 2013.

288
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,960
And I think you heard about Bitcoin for the first time in like 2010.

289
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:43,960
You were, you know, mining on GPUs at that point, which is wild looking back.

290
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,760
But maybe we can just start out with who is Wild Bill Casseron,

291
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:55,760
aka Will and how did he get here today to now being the the creator of Domus,

292
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,800
which is the biggest and still pretty much, well, not the only anymore,

293
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,200
but still the biggest iOS no-ster client.

294
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,800
Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm just a big nerd,

295
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,920
kid or nerd who just likes tinkering with computers and like tinkering with new tech.

296
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,000
I've always kind of been obsessed with, you know, how technology can,

297
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,720
you know, bring us into, you know, the Star Trek future.

298
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,520
Like that's what I want to be working on. I want to be working on, you know,

299
00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,400
Dyson spheres and spaceships and stuff.

300
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,720
But I feel like before we can get there, we need to like fix our money, right?

301
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,200
And fix some of the core things that are broken in our society.

302
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:34,000
Like we can't even speak freely to each other online without like being feared of,

303
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:35,040
you know, being censored.

304
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,400
So, you know, I feel like at this one point in time, like, I feel like as a

305
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,080
software engineer, I can have a huge impact just from like writing some code.

306
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,240
And so that's, that's like the most motivating thing that keeps me going every

307
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,520
day. It's just this idea where you can make these huge impacts just from

308
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,480
writing a bit of code, which is just like crazy to think about, right?

309
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,840
Like our ancestors, you know, they were building like skyscrapers and like

310
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,520
nuclear and like the Manhattan project and physical things and like things that

311
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:04,200
are way harder than this, but, you know, I'm just like this, nobody in my closet.

312
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,840
And I can start doing these crazy impacts on the world.

313
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,480
So I think that's just, it's a really cool time to be a software engineer.

314
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:15,880
And, amen. To be fair, our forefathers would look at these

315
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:21,720
crazy lines of computer code and think, what is this like alien witchcraft

316
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:22,880
that these guys are doing?

317
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,000
I would call you be burned at the stake at this point.

318
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:31,520
Most certainly you are a heretic who is somehow making magic internet money

319
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,680
and doing all sorts of nefarious things.

320
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,840
But so that's a great little intro.

321
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,880
But now let's let's fast forward.

322
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:47,120
You'd been working on Noster for how long before the things really started to blow up?

323
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:48,560
How long were you working on Domus?

324
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,560
Did you work on anything else besides that in the Noster ecosystem?

325
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,200
Yeah. So Noster was just like a side project, the client I was working on.

326
00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,840
You know, this was just a hobby I used to pretty much only work on on weekends

327
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,200
because I had a full time job at the time working on a startup.

328
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,960
And I was mainly working on lightning because I was working on core lightning.

329
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,400
I was working on an app called Ellen Link, which was a core lightning wallet,

330
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:13,600
which I still use for my zapping.

331
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:15,240
I think I'm the only answer of that.

332
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,760
And yeah, and I just, you know, I just love the lightning network.

333
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,280
I just, you know, I loved how it was showing how Bitcoin could actually

334
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,800
work as a payment option because I've always been a huge proponent of

335
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:27,960
actually using Bitcoin and not holding it.

336
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,160
You know, some of my best stories is just giving way to way too much Bitcoin.

337
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,520
And now I like I'm in pain thinking about how much I get away.

338
00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,520
But in some sense, it's like, well, you know, but those are the moments

339
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:38,360
I'll remember.

340
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,200
And it's like, those are all the very important learning moments in my life.

341
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,560
So, and it was, and the people who received those Bitcoin are, you know,

342
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,040
well, most of them lost the Bitcoin.

343
00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,120
But, you know, I just, I just love the idea of actually using it

344
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:51,200
for its tenant purpose.

345
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,120
Because otherwise you're not using this beautiful thing that Satoshi gave us,

346
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,800
like this, even like the script interpreter within Bitcoin, I just,

347
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,520
it's just this beautiful thing that I've written software for.

348
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,080
And, you know, so I feel like lightning network was like that first time where

349
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:05,720
you can actually use a Bitcoin.

350
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,720
So, so I've always been really passionate about it, but I ran into this issue

351
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,320
where I realized not many people knew about it, not me, but it was too hard

352
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:12,920
to use.

353
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,920
So I was really passionate about just making it easier for build these lightning.

354
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,920
Yeah. So Nostra was just a side project and, and yes, it just, I started

355
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,920
April 2020, April of last year.

356
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,920
So it took like, and then that December is when Jack found it and then kind of

357
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,320
blew up. But yeah, it was just a side project.

358
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,320
Yeah, it was just a side project.

359
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,320
Well, it's amazing what can, what can come of, of just a side project.

360
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,320
It's kind of a beautiful thing.

361
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:46,920
But, you know, I still remember one of like Jack's first notes on there was

362
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,320
something the effect of this is just like, this is just what Twitter felt like

363
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:52,320
pre 5000 users.

364
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,320
And it was just such a cool thing to see.

365
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,320
I don't think I joined Twitter until 2010, maybe.

366
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:07,320
So a couple of years behind the early adopters of that, but it was a pretty

367
00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:12,320
neat feeling to see all of a sudden you've got Jack Dorsey, who's just

368
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:18,320
like this, you know, legend and who built this incredibly, incredibly useful

369
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:23,320
platform that, you know, got taken in certain directions that I think he's

370
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:28,320
probably, you know, not as happy about some of the ways that it went, but

371
00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,320
ultimately he built something that was so, so valuable.

372
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,320
And then for him to provide that signal to say, I see something that is as

373
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,320
valuable or more so than the thing I was building.

374
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:44,320
That was just like huge for me where I was like, wow, this is really amazing.

375
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,320
And I'm not a developer.

376
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:47,320
I don't write code.

377
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,320
And so I was like, well, at least let me just use the ever loving shit out of

378
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,320
this beautiful protocol and try to mess around on it and try to tell people

379
00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:56,320
about it.

380
00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:03,320
But, you know, soon after that initial kind of blow up, it was like, I think

381
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,320
it was, was it early January you implemented zaps?

382
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:12,320
I think you were talking about the spec in late 2022, like late December, and

383
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,320
then January it went live.

384
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,320
How long had you been kind of working on that idea for zaps?

385
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,320
Was that coming from like, from the start when you, you know, because you had

386
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,320
all this background on lightning, you were like, this just makes sense.

387
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,320
Or did it kind of develop a little as you went along?

388
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,320
Yeah, I didn't think it was possible because I was thinking about it for

389
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:33,320
like the past year.

390
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,320
And I just thought like, well, you'd never be able to verify them properly.

391
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,320
And that's like, it's still kind of true.

392
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,320
You don't really know if a zap is real.

393
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,320
And that's why if you have a zapper who's like creating fake zaps, like, yeah,

394
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:45,320
that's, that's possible.

395
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,320
But I at least got to a point where I was like, well, if you controlled your own

396
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,320
node, you know for sure that the zaps that you're node sending out are true

397
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:54,320
and correct.

398
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:59,320
So I thought that was like useful enough for most people that I was like, you know,

399
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:00,320
I'll just go by the bullet and write the spec.

400
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,320
I thought at one point I might be 12 to do it, but then I realized like, I could

401
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,320
probably do it with Elinural.

402
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,320
So yeah, it was a long time coming and it was a lot of, it took a long time,

403
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,320
but back and forth I worked with Kieran as well.

404
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,320
He refined the spec early on.

405
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,320
But yeah, it's once, once I released it, just to see, to see the explosion of

406
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:18,320
activity around it was insane.

407
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,320
Like I think, I think Snort had it implemented and Amethyst had it implemented

408
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,320
or Snort, I think had it implemented before I even had it in Dommas because he

409
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:28,320
just reverse engineered what I had and implemented it.

410
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:33,320
So just see the energy and the, see the excitement around it was mind blowing.

411
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:41,320
So yeah, I think it was, Noster was already so interesting to so many people

412
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:46,320
before that, but the addition of zaps made it something I think that was just

413
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:52,320
naturally attractive for any Bitcoiner, especially one who maybe was a little bit,

414
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,320
maybe a little hesitant about this, you know, new social media thing because

415
00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,320
that's all they knew about it was, oh, that's just some new social media app,

416
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:05,320
like not having any of the in depth knowledge of this yet, not maybe realizing

417
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:10,320
the parallels of a decentralized protocol, you know, as is Bitcoin.

418
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:15,320
But as soon as apps come into play, it's like, oh, wait, we can just send

419
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,320
Bitcoin to each other.

420
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,320
And there's, you know, no one in the middle, maybe there's a, you know,

421
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,320
if you're using a custodial wallet, sure, there's a custodian in the middle

422
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,320
handling that Bitcoin.

423
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,320
But that was such a powerful thing.

424
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:33,320
And it was a little bit after you implemented zaps that you also got the

425
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:40,320
news that China had requested kindly that Dommas be pulled from the app store

426
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,320
in China.

427
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,320
And I still remember, remember that.

428
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:50,320
I mean, do you think it'll ever be back on the app store in China in some

429
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:56,320
distant future, A, and then B, I don't know, like, how was that as far as just

430
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,320
a roller coaster of emotions?

431
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,320
Like you're building this new stuff and it's amazing and people are loving it

432
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,320
and people are using it all over the world.

433
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:08,320
And then it's like, CCP is basically like, nope, sorry.

434
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,320
Oh my God, you're making me remember all this crazy shit that happened and like,

435
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:13,320
it was crazy, wasn't it?

436
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:14,320
Like the whole nostril.

437
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:15,320
Yeah, it started with that nostril.

438
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:16,320
It was wild.

439
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:17,320
It was from Elon.

440
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,320
And that's where, I think that was the craziest thing.

441
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:20,320
Yeah.

442
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,320
Like to actually see, because, you know, there was a lot of craziness going on

443
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:24,320
around that time.

444
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,320
And then the CCP thing happened, which was like, what the hell?

445
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,320
So you obviously like, you know, it struck a lot of like, chords somewhere.

446
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,320
And people were paying attention.

447
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,320
Whether, you know, someone was saying the CCP was like posting on Nostril.

448
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:42,320
Like maybe they're doing like counter counter propaganda of some sort.

449
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,320
Like they're trying to like flood it with stuff to make it look like it's a CCP

450
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,320
operative or something operation.

451
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:48,320
I don't know.

452
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,320
I mean, I wouldn't put it past them, I guess.

453
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:51,320
You never know.

454
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:52,320
Yeah, I don't know.

455
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,320
I mean, I think people in China are still using it.

456
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,320
I get messages every now and then like, oh yeah, I'm still using it.

457
00:21:58,320 --> 00:21:59,320
We're using it within the country.

458
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:00,320
So it's pretty cool.

459
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,320
And it shows the power of this technology.

460
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,320
It's going to be, it's going to be difficult to stop.

461
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,320
They're going to have a hard time stopping it.

462
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:07,320
But it's interesting.

463
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,320
There's, you know, you mentioned there's a lot of Bitcoiners that joined.

464
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:11,320
And it's interesting.

465
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,320
There's still lots of Bitcoiners are still very skeptical of Nostril.

466
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,320
And I'm curious, I'm curious what their mindset are, what their mindset is,

467
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,320
because, you know, it's working, you can get Bitcoin.

468
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,320
So like what's, what's not the leg really?

469
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:22,320
I don't know.

470
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,320
I do see that sometimes still.

471
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:29,320
I saw today that, that Stacy Herbert joined Nostril, which is great.

472
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,320
She was a little bit of a holdout.

473
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,320
It's great to have her part of the flock.

474
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,320
You know, I don't know what the, the hesitation is.

475
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,320
I think perhaps, I guess if you're an on chain maximalist with Bitcoin,

476
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,320
you're like, oh, this lightning isn't even real.

477
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,320
Like I'm not even going to, I'm going to waste my time with it.

478
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,320
Maybe that's one thing, but I feel like that's probably a pretty small minority.

479
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:57,320
I think maybe for a lot of people, it's still just, maybe it just still feels so new

480
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:02,320
and feeling like you're, you're behind the wave, even though it's still, you know,

481
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,320
we're still so early, as we say, maybe that's part of it.

482
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:07,320
I don't know.

483
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,320
And people keep linking me this Parker Lewis argument,

484
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:15,320
which is like this idea where Nostril is taking away the brain energy from the Bitcoin space.

485
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,320
And I don't, and I just don't see it that way.

486
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:21,320
I just see it as a way to like inject new blood into Bitcoin.

487
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:22,320
So I don't know.

488
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,320
It's, it's a weird perspective, but I've heard that a lot as well.

489
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:30,320
I haven't heard, or I should say, I haven't read that article from Parker.

490
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:38,320
I'll have to check that out. You know, one, I had Preston Pish on this show as one of my first guests.

491
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:46,320
And one thing he said, I thought was super insightful about, because he is like a full Nostril bull, like absolutely loves it.

492
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:53,320
I mean, you know, he's been on since the beginning, trying to figure out how to get relays running and just experimenting and having a good time,

493
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,320
shitposting and zapping, of course.

494
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:09,320
But he basically said that he thinks that Nostril is on a level of importance with Bitcoin, because free and open communication is on par with free and open money.

495
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:18,320
And he made the point further that without decentralized communication channels without censorship resistant communication channels.

496
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:23,320
How are you going to actually coordinate the exchange of value between two people across the world.

497
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:33,320
And know that, okay, when I'm sending you my address, you're actually receiving my address because I know that it you know I'm sending this to your, your Noster keys.

498
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:44,320
So he views Noster at a more macro level is like, this is the way you're coordinating economically to be able to actually, you know, utilize Bitcoin in its censorship resistant way.

499
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:52,320
You need to be able to communicate between people in a censorship resistant way, which I thought was like once he said it, I was like, yeah, it's an excellent argument for it.

500
00:24:52,320 --> 00:25:03,320
But I don't see that I don't think I can agree with the brain drain argument because I view these two things as being kind of developed in tandem and helping to build off each other.

501
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:09,320
Yeah, and it's not zero sum. It's like we're going to attract new developers and those developers might get interested in Bitcoin.

502
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:25,320
No, but that that point about like free speech and like speech online is is becoming increasingly important, especially during elections in the states where there's been concern of a lot of censorship and a lot of, you know, propaganda and control of these, you know, big tech corporations

503
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:40,320
to spread, you know, certain message to try to sway the, you know, population to vote a certain way. So we might see Noster become like actually like an election topic. And people within within some administrations actually are talking about it right now and they've been talking to me as well

504
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:55,320
like they want to make it a part of their campaigns like look this is could be a way to bring like to restore democracy in the United States. So if we if it went that big and it went into the political sphere that would be that could be the point where it kind of takes off which would be really interesting.

505
00:25:55,320 --> 00:26:10,320
I know that RFK or at least somebody in his team joined Noster. It was a number of months ago now I think it was maybe around the Miami Bitcoin conference. I don't know how active he's been on it since then.

506
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:24,320
But it's also interesting. I mean, if you've seen the stuff Brett Morrison is doing with true vote, whereas utilizing Bitcoin and open timestamps and and Noster. I think it's going to be interesting to see again.

507
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:43,320
Right now Noster is a is being used as a social media decentralized social media protocol. But obviously, it is an open protocol that you can build absolutely anything on starting with, you know, social media is an obvious first thing because it's what people want right it's

508
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:59,320
something that's going to actually attract users attract people to use this protocol. But I'm curious kind of what what you're most excited about in terms of the next evolutions I know that you've been really jazzed about about kind of email replacements I think you've been

509
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:17,320
working on one maybe has another side project for for a while. But what do you kind of see as the coming next down the pipeline. There's probably still a long way to go on getting massive adoption of the social media side of Noster but what do you think comes alongside or comes after

510
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:24,320
that that you're really looking forward to and you think where this protocol is going to really, you know, kind of shine.

511
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:38,320
Yeah, I mean so like a lot of the things we use, you know, they're kind of you there all your data is is, you know, closed behind silos and you can't really see you don't have access to it's not really transparent.

512
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:53,320
So like this whole idea of like radical transparency with the data is kind of an interesting idea. And that's why I really like that that idea with like the true vote or whatever that app was where, you know, even like I'm not even sure how 100% works but even just the fact that you can

513
00:27:53,320 --> 00:28:02,320
pull notes from a public database and actually have some transparency around notes and you can see everyone who signed everything you can you can tell everything and make sure like the tally is correct.

514
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:16,320
But even that that simple thing is very, very powerful idea. I think a lot of people lost trust within the systems because they're being counted behind like curtains and you can't see the process where Noster radically opens up everything.

515
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:27,320
So that's one thing that's maybe we'll see more of that this idea of like transparency and how that affects, you know, these types of systems but also, you know, even just if you know the corporate world.

516
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:41,320
I really I'm really interested in, you know, what if we could, you know, get more like corporations on what we have a suite of tools for like Slack and email and, you know, business related tools that you know and that could actually be a good way to make a sustainable or profitable

517
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:56,320
infrastructure business so you know what types of what types of like corporate solutions are we are we building on Noster is really interesting. Obviously all the other public stuff as well like ZappStream, you know, the floxter is really cool like we replace meet up because meet up sucks.

518
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:09,320
And I guess overall just like what is what does it look like when all these apps are working together, you know what does it mean for a floxter to talk to your Slack app or your floxter to talk to your Dhamma's app and what happens when you're making highlights and so I think this greater

519
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:20,320
or like, you know, really showcasing the interoperability features and what that how that plays out is is really exciting to me as well so but yeah again we're just so early we're not even scratching the surface really.

520
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:44,320
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521
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:57,320
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522
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:16,320
No, it's it's it's so true and I think it's a really interesting point about kind of the, let's say the corporate world or I mean even if you think about governments, you know, even maybe it's even something small maybe it's local municipalities but just being able to coordinate and communicate in a secure way.

523
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:27,320
And to, you know, if I imagine if a nation state maybe the CCP was the first nation state to run a relay, who knows.

524
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:43,320
But I think that we could, we could legitimately see that happening in the not so distant future, where it just makes sense, whether it be for their own internal communication, or to perhaps to try and, you know, get people on their relay and be able to see what they're saying,

525
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:57,320
because it is a, you know, pretty radically transparent. So, well, it was interesting because I went to this, this digital sovereignty conference in Spain, and I thought it would be interesting to go to because it wasn't a standard Bitcoin conference I'd normally go to.

526
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:03,320
And it was full of like a lot like EU like government people, you know, people I wouldn't normally talk to.

527
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:13,320
But it was interesting because they were I was telling them about Nostra and like, you know, like, wow, they're like we could use this for at the UN like I was talking like this the IT guy for like some UN organization.

528
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:22,320
And like this seems like this would be great for like independence from tech corporations like that's what we need to be and we need to be neutral and like, yeah, perfect like use a relay like start building this up.

529
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:32,320
He's like, well, well, we need these clients and something like we need these types of tools and like, well, these are the things we could be building, you know, even though it's for government but like, you know, governments are here for now until we turn into like an Ancap state.

530
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:39,320
You know, we might as well make it, you know, give them proper technology versus whatever closed source systems they're using right now.

531
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:54,320
Got it is just absurd how not only closed source but just antiquated. So many fucking government systems are like anytime you try to do like literally anything like the fact that you're still need to send physical paper.

532
00:31:54,320 --> 00:32:06,320
And so often for things that are quote official, or the fact that we use social security numbers as basically in the US as basically like our de facto identity that's like keep this number safe.

533
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:20,320
Otherwise somebody can steal your identity and this was literally invented like specifically just for social security. And then they later realized, oh wait, we need like a universal identifier for our population so we've got these social security numbers let's just use that.

534
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:37,320
But like this system was never built for that to be the end all be all of identification. And it's just another example of like government basically just, it's like, well, if it's broke, let's not fix it, you know, they're just there's no desire to actually improve or innovate there.

535
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:48,320
I think my my my C my CRA account which is like the IRS in Canada, it got okay, I guess. And so I got locked out of my my tax account, which is like this is great I'm locked out of my tax account I can't do anything.

536
00:32:48,320 --> 00:33:02,320
I guess you don't have to pay them right to like fix it I had to like fax, like all like all my identity and stuff and I like that. I don't have a fax I do like an app that did faxing and then like, it didn't work I'm like this is just what am I doing faxing in 2023.

537
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:14,320
Well, Paul Krugman is definitely still faxing in 2023 but for the rest of us it's like okay gonna have to go down to like a local FedEx or USPS and use their fax machine this is, this is fucking ridiculous.

538
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:35,320
But I, yeah, I don't know it's a the nice thing is I think that the pace of government innovation is so far behind the private sector and certainly so far behind the open source community that it's kind of like this nice barrier.

539
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:47,320
Like, it takes the government so long just to catch on to the fact that something is like they maybe should pay attention to no stir. Like, it's just it's going to take them a long time but that's like a good thing.

540
00:33:47,320 --> 00:34:01,320
It's like with Bitcoin to they ignore it or they don't even know about it and for several years. Then they hear about it and then they ignore it for a while and then when they finally decide you know what we should we got to do something about this it's like well too late, you know cats out of the bag.

541
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:15,320
The genie is not going back in the lamp like it's here now. So that's kind of like a, I'm grateful to government for being so fucking slow and efficient because otherwise we would be, we'd be in a lot more trouble I think.

542
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:31,320
And so, one thing I wanted to talk about a little bit was on the topic of zaps, and also on the topic of let's say revenue models and general monetization.

543
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:48,320
I know this is something you and I have talked about this at some length. As soon as you came out with zaps you put out a note that was basically put this idea in my head of zapportizing where it's like, well you know you could just, you could just pay to for somebody to see your

544
00:34:48,320 --> 00:35:05,320
business as you can attach a note to this zap and what an interesting thing that would be for companies to use and I was like, well that's fucking brilliant. Recently, we've seen a lot of what people are, I think calling spam zapping with like one sat zaps, just flooding into

545
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:22,320
Satoshi or well now no longer Waldo Satoshi for a lot of US based people that's a that's a whole different topic. But I'm curious on just kind of your take because I see both sides of the zap spam like nobody likes spam right.

546
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:39,320
Nobody likes getting force fed advertisements. At the same time, this is like the first sort of spam that you're actually getting paid for and you're getting paid for in hard money and yes it's a very, very, very small, you know, just one sat or two sats, but at least it's still something.

547
00:35:39,320 --> 00:36:00,320
I mean, I think the easy answer to that is like message threat or message thresholds for the zap I think Kaia implemented this already in his telegram bot. But I'm curious if your thoughts on zapportizing on this being perhaps an interesting way to bring in, let's say more

548
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:19,320
value to the protocol has evolved at all. And just kind of if you maybe at a zooming out. Do you have anything in mind for sort of the future of zaps in general from the user facing perspective. Hopefully Apple allows you to put it back on at some point in the future but I'd love to get

549
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:34,320
your take on that. Well it's interesting because I think that so I think we're in Prague and you're about to do a zapportizing talk. And that's when I added it to the notes. But I'm pretty sure that triggered something with an Apple. And that's what eventually led to the the note zaps getting removed.

550
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:53,320
I'm pretty sure was also freedom forum was after that after Prague I'm pretty sure. Yes, first announced it. So I think there was something that got triggered with an Apple because of that. So, so you're it's your fault. Oh, no, just here we go. No, I just think they like kind of got spooked like well it like an advertising model like

551
00:36:53,320 --> 00:37:06,320
that's gonna go through I don't know there's something that went up the higher. But I think it's still a great idea. I mean I removed it temporarily because of that but there's I'm gonna read it because it's a it's just makes a lot of sense. It's kind of cool some people are complaining

552
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:16,320
about it that. Oh, well that you know people can just pay for a spot under my thread so you know. So maybe there'd be an option to disable it if you're a user you don't want to see that but I think it was pretty cool.

553
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:32,320
People could leave messages. Yeah, in terms of the one I mean the one that messages are kind of annoying. It's like people fling and pennies at you. Yeah, it's like okay. That's nice but you know stop. So maybe it's a super easy thing to do the threshold thing like you like you mentioned you would just

554
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:50,320
at Dom is going to have push notification soon so there's gonna be an option where you just don't notify me if it's under 20 sats or something and that's pretty easy to do so nice. Now I think that that's that's huge and I do agree with the flinging pennies and Algae because it's in my opinion it's like okay you're

555
00:37:50,320 --> 00:38:07,320
you're telling me like that's the beauty of zaps right. It is a signal about how much value you assign to what you are doing and how much value assigned to that other person's attention or to their work. If you're just zapping them for the sake of you like what they what they noted.

556
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:27,320
But it's probably a good idea for anyone listening if you're if you're trying to zap for ties to at least up the sats like just a little bit. You know, keep your zapping budget the same but just decrease the frequency and increase the value a little bit because I, I'm personally a I've been with

557
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:41,320
I've been with Zapp since 2006 ever since I could, you know, default my zap amount and that's that's felt like a good number for me it's like, for talking in fiat terms I think like 24 cents right now. And this is 25 after today who knows.

558
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:57,320
And this is why I set the default to 1000 because you know I never intended zaps to be something like you click on every post it's like you, if you really like a post and you you should zap it a high amount it's I feel like that's more impactful than just getting like 25 five set zaps right.

559
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:11,320
So, but it's, yeah, I think once we introduce one tab zap people just decide to like reduce the default amount like five and it's just in zap everything which is, which is fine but I don't know I don't know if like that is as impactful as it could be though.

560
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:31,320
It does kind of, because I love the way you were describing zaps originally and still to this day but it's, it's a value signal right and so if you make it so that it is such an insignificant amount that it is no longer, you know, quote valuable.

561
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:37,320
You've just kind of replicated likes again, but just with exactly really really tiny micropayment for it.

562
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:46,320
So, so this is this is why we wanted to, and this is why we at Domest HQ we've been looking at ways to what would incentivize people to actually want to zap higher amounts.

563
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:52,320
You know, some and ways to get around the whole note zapping issue that Apple does not allow.

564
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:59,320
So one of the things they do allow which is interesting is you're allowed to buy physical things with zaps.

565
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:08,320
It's like for some reason I think it they made that concession because I'm guessing Instagram because Instagram has a physical store you can sell stuff and the idea of them taking a 30% tax off of physical

566
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:30,320
purchases on Instagram might have been like way too much or something so maybe they have this concession for that so I was thinking maybe you know what if you wanted to buy something physical for someone else.

567
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:39,320
It's like 50,000 sets and anyone can click that button or maybe do it more than once. So you're buying a physical purchase for them.

568
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:44,320
Maybe that's considered a note zap. I don't know, but I'm just trying to I was trying to think of loophole to get around it.

569
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:52,320
No, I think that that that makes sense. It's also such a like it's one of those things it's like this is just a stupid rule.

570
00:40:52,320 --> 00:41:07,320
This just doesn't actually make any logical sense like you because lnu are all invoices or just lightning invoices regular ones are just strings of characters it's like, you can just post them anywhere, and anyone can pay them and you can do this

571
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:16,320
literally on any social media platform, you know, yeah, no stir aside you can do it on Facebook, and you can do it on Twitter and you can do it on Instagram and anything.

572
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:31,320
And it's like to draw this line at no you can't do it at the post specific level just seems so like obtuse to specifically have an issue when it's a button like you know you can post a lightning invoice on Twitter, and someone could pay it.

573
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:40,320
But for some reason if you turn that invoice into a button that's not like technically I don't think invoices are allowed and Thomas has us right now, both 11 invoices that converts into a button.

574
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:46,320
I don't think that's allowed because it's like a button you press and to buy something. But they haven't really caught that I guess.

575
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:52,320
What makes I just don't like what could possibly make the fact that something is a button like is it does it make it too easy.

576
00:41:52,320 --> 00:42:09,320
So that that their justification for the guidelines says it says, I forget the exact wording, but it's something along the lines of, if you encourage people to if you make it easy for or if that will, if that transaction ever ends up being a sale of some type.

577
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:23,320
If it ends up encouraging sales of things so imagine if you did a post that was like, I'm selling these shoes or I'm sorry I'm selling this like JPEG, you know, send me 50,000 sets and the person who sends me 50,000 sets then I'll send them the JPEG.

578
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:34,320
So that's like technically not allowed because you're anyway so I don't know just having this that button there apparently isn't encouraging people to do those things but you can do those things anyway so it doesn't make any sense to me.

579
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:40,320
Well, right and it's like the fact that they're okay with the transaction of physical goods.

580
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:50,320
Right. If there's if there's a physical good involved but it's like as soon as it's a digital or virtual good. That's like that's where they draw the line again just seems like.

581
00:42:50,320 --> 00:43:02,320
I think they're just right they're just trying to protect that that huge revenue stream of 30% on digital purchases and you know anything that encroaches on that they're going to try to stop so they don't even have to follow their own guidelines right they can change the

582
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,320
guideline if it doesn't match what they want to do so.

583
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:13,320
I mean that's kind of the that's the bitch of working with these app stores I know that the EU I believe it was passed.

584
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:22,320
But didn't they just put something through that Apple's going to have to allow alternate app stores that went through recently didn't it.

585
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:33,320
Yeah so it all comes down to you know are people going to use this distribution method are people going to go download this and like how does how does notification will notifications work on side loaded apps.

586
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:38,320
Because like if you think about it a lot of their app security relies on you know apps or review.

587
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:44,320
So it's not on the app store well like basic functionality work like probably not like so will people who want to use them.

588
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:49,320
So whether they're loud or not I don't think it's going to be a huge impact.

589
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:55,320
I mean I guess this is where like like PWAs are pretty useful for a lot of this.

590
00:43:55,320 --> 00:44:05,320
I mean I guess you can I think you can use iris and snort as like you know click add to home screen and put it on there.

591
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:10,320
I haven't done that with iris or snort but so I assume that it still works OK.

592
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:17,320
The main issue with that is that you know so extensions don't work plugins don't work Safari plugins don't work with PWAs.

593
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:23,320
So if you want to view you if you want to use a not your app as a PWA you can't use the plugins that protect your private key.

594
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:31,320
You know on on on iOS we have an extended called no store and it's a plugin for Safari on mobile and allows you to hide your private key from the web apps.

595
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:43,320
You can't use that with PWA so and that's and that's going to be the theme with with you know with Apple is that if if it's too easy to get around the app store they're going to start gimping PWA so that you can't even.

596
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:49,320
You know that just no no extensions is one example of that so it's not like a perfect solution.

597
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,320
No I mean that's a that's a fair point.

598
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:57,320
You know I would like because we're talking about Apple loving those sweet revenue streams of 30%.

599
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:05,320
I'd like to shift a little bit to revenue streams of another manner and that is with regard to to relays and incentive models.

600
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,320
I think I think I'm going to start talking about footster.

601
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:15,320
I you know what I just for you just for you I wore a footster.com shirt.

602
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,320
I haven't I haven't updated the website in a while I got to get to that.

603
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,320
But yeah for anyone listening footster.com.

604
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:27,320
Go there and see some feet and then go on no stern post your feet.

605
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,320
It will usher in the next bull run.

606
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,320
I'm just sure of it.

607
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,320
But a footster aside we can circle back to that.

608
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:51,320
One of the topics that I think was really prevalent at Nostereca and I'm curious if it was at Nosterecia as well was monetization and just sustainable business models for relay operators and for client developers.

609
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:56,320
Because obviously a lot of people have been doing a lot of this just kind of out of the goodness of their heart.

610
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:05,320
So far but you know electricity costs money and hardware costs money and upkeep costs money and your time is also very valuable.

611
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:10,320
So I mean maybe it's it's best to start on the client side just.

612
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:14,320
And you obviously run a huge beefy relay for Domus.

613
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:20,320
Which is sure just a quite an endeavor to do by itself.

614
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:39,320
But then you've also got Domus the client and I'm curious if you've if you've thought more about I know in the past you've talked about kind of a you know a Domus purple or whatever you might call it that's basically like a paid version that you look at as you know kind of like OK maybe you get some additional features but also it's a way to you know.

615
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,320
You built something really valuable.

616
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:55,320
People find it valuable and I think want to give value back. Have you thought of any other alternate models. Are you still leaning towards the kind of enhanced Domus purple version as the best bet or where's your thinking at on that now.

617
00:46:55,320 --> 00:47:09,320
Yeah I mean you know the the value for value model was looking extremely promising you know especially if we if I just knew if we scaled up the amount of users that you know and note zapping what it took us to a place where it was it would have been fine monetization wise.

618
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:16,320
Obviously Apple acts that. So now you have been forced to look at more at the traditional models like subscriptions and Domus purple.

619
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:21,320
So just I think two days ago I started working on some premium features for Domus Domus purple.

620
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:28,320
We're going to try it. You know I don't think we're I think master is big enough that what's going to make a huge impact.

621
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:38,320
It's fine if you just want to like pay for your servers but if you're trying to like if you're trying to take over the world you know you know people people want Domus Android like you know that that takes resources.

622
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:51,320
We ended up hiring somebody. So fortunately we're able to get out the open sets grant for Domus iOS for 150 K which is pretty good and so that's paying we use it we're using that to pay an employee to like work on that Daniel he's really good.

623
00:47:51,320 --> 00:48:04,320
But like you know what about Android right so I'm currently not being paid so I'm kind of just like I'm like well let's see if I can get another grant for for Android but it's like oh no maybe I only already have one grant so they're they're not really willing to do that right now.

624
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:09,320
So it comes down to it's like well if I you can only get so far with grants you know what do we do.

625
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:14,320
You know you know and you know we have a merch store and that's that's not really bringing that much money.

626
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:27,320
You know what about subscriptions we calculated it and it's like well even if we get a decent number it's probably not going to be enough to even just pay for another employee so it all comes down to it's like you know what do we want to do do we want to scale this up like and then that's

627
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:39,320
that point you need to think about like you can do VC funding which has always been something that like Jack personally told me like don't do it but I'm now I'm like Jack well it's easy for you to say you know you made like billions of dollars of VC funding.

628
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:48,320
So now I'm kind of struggling with that right now and maybe I'll probably have another call Jack like you know what year it's like been a year like what should we keep doing this route or like what's what's your idea.

629
00:48:48,320 --> 00:49:02,320
But it's it's been a really big challenge for me just trying to figure out I've had much more respect for like running a business now because it's a lot harder than it seems and especially in this new space we're not no one's merely making any money right so it's definitely challenging.

630
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:13,320
Now and I mean it's difficult to because these are truly kind of uncharted waters. And especially I think when you're building in an you're building out in the open.

631
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:30,320
It makes a lot of things more simple but it certainly adds a layer of complexity I think maybe there's sometimes this a feeling by some that you know well this is, you know, this is open source so you know I'm just going to like I don't need to pay anything for this and you know nobody

632
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:40,320
deserves my my precious bitcoins. But I think that there isn't an appetite I'm looking forward to the premium features because I know I will be happy to to sign up for that.

633
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:50,320
Can you give us any of a sneak peak taste of what some of the just where your things I don't want to spoil anything, but the general direction that you're thinking for some of the premium stuff.

634
00:49:50,320 --> 00:50:03,320
I mean so I mean I really like the translation thing within Dhammas, the universal translator but the biggest issue is the UX is just terrible like if I want to get, you know the best probably the best translator is not sure that that line translate

635
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:09,320
that not sure that wine, but you have like fumble with API keys and like when you reinstalled Dhammas is like you lose your API key.

636
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:17,320
And it's just like a pain he asked I feel like an obvious one is just provide that as a as a premium feature is like you just get translations to turn on.

637
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:22,320
So that was an obvious thing so I implemented that two days ago and that's ready to go.

638
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:33,320
I really want to do a thing where if you're like the first person to subscribe like I'm going to have like numbers on the account so if you're like one of the first you can say I'm number one I was the first subscriber.

639
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:45,320
Maybe you could show that off on your account. And this is like and this is going to lead down to more what I really want to do and I think that's probably the best back for making money on this protocol is just really cool, you know perks that you can add to your

640
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:53,320
profile right you should. Maybe there's a limited time thing or it's like this month there's like a special feature you can make your profile look like golden or something.

641
00:50:53,320 --> 00:51:04,320
And if it's only available for this month and you can buy it and support Dhammas and just just make like these pay I mean this model has been used by video games and like you know I think Counter Strike is like a good example where you can buy

642
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:17,320
skins it's like a billion dollar game at this point just from the market so I don't know I'm going to try that just because it's I got to try everything but absolutely in terms of premium features I want to definitely want to add more multi account.

643
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:23,320
I maybe I won't even make multi account premium but yeah I have to think about it. I'm still working on it.

644
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:35,320
No that I mean honestly I think multi account is something that at least I know switching between my Walker account my footster account and my stop the presses account I would definitely pay for a premium feature like that.

645
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:43,320
I think the skins are an interesting one too because I just called I just started playing Diablo for had never played it before.

646
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:48,320
We were very deep in Baldur's Gate three before that I love the other ball.

647
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:56,320
Yeah wow what a game I actually started our second play through everything we're like maybe we should try out Diablo and there was a there was a Black Friday deal on it so awesome.

648
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,320
Guys went all the way to act three.

649
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,320
We went all the way to act four.

650
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:01,320
Four.

651
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,320
Oh yeah.

652
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,320
Oh no no Baldur's Gate.

653
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,320
Yeah no we played we played all the way.

654
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:25,320
It has amazing couch co-play which is fantastic because like usually when we game it's like one of us is playing you know for playing like the Witcher or like one of the new result of games it's just always single player so finally being able to do a side by side it was like yes this is amazing.

655
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,320
I'm sure you would have Diablo too.

656
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,320
How could you have known.

657
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,320
Is it is it too predictable.

658
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:33,320
Yeah.

659
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:47,320
I mean I like a little hack and slash what can I say you know it's a it's fun but I was blown away because I saw the whole just all the different skins and like the fact that you can buy all of that.

660
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:53,320
You know these platinum coins for their in game currency to upgrade these various skins and depending on the season that it's in.

661
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:54,320
Yeah.

662
00:52:54,320 --> 00:53:11,320
And I think I saw these different upgrades and I'd read about some of it in one of I think it was actually one of dirt Gigi's pieces where he wrote about how players within I think it was maybe Diablo two basically switched to using a different type of or you know emergent basically in game currency

663
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:28,320
that were provided like the gold in game was was not very useful but I digress the point being it blows my mind people will pay like for these video games a lot of money for these cosmetic upgrades that often are maybe only lasting for a season.

664
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:35,320
And so I think the core of it is the core of it is like you are you you're doing something that you're really passionate about you love the game.

665
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:36,320
Yep.

666
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:48,320
You're with people who also love the game. And you know it's just a way to kind of show off like you know I look cool or like but like how how that's not that different from a social network like video games or social networks in some sense.

667
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:55,320
So if you kind of like you're like oh like I'm being funny I have this funny clown profile this month or like just like something that's just I don't know.

668
00:53:55,320 --> 00:54:01,320
So things like that I think could actually be a big, a big thing in Nostra but who knows. It's still early so.

669
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:17,320
I would say I think so too and that was kind of what I was getting to is that like, I would find that honestly more attractive in a social network than I would in game but granted maybe I just haven't gotten deep into Diablo enough yet maybe I'll change my

670
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:33,320
maybe I'm biased towards towards Nostra but I think that that's a good place to start with it. I mean people like to have fun to like keep Nostra fun keep it weird give people options to you know express themselves however they should choose maybe it's a an

671
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:37,320
an animation of cascading feet. I don't know just off the top of my head.

672
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,320
I'm going to have to add that now that you you gave me that idea.

673
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:46,320
It'll be a special feature where you can like send the feet to people and it'll like rain down on their screen.

674
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,320
I think it's a pretty nice idea.

675
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:54,320
Well, another thing in terms of so that's kind of the client side.

676
00:54:54,320 --> 00:55:07,320
In terms of the relay operator side, because I think this is something where like this is what I heard I think probably most frequently alongside the client monetization was relay monetization like,

677
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:17,320
what do we do for this there's a lot of paid relays now obviously which is fantastic and people are happy to pay for that. They're happy to pay for something that's a little bit improved performance.

678
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:35,320
Do you think that there are other models that like, what do you think about content specific relays, like as in a relay that is just, again, let's just off the top of our heads use the example of feet, because it's just sitting right there but this is this is a footster relay.

679
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:52,320
There's a good opportunity there whether it's feet maybe it's just, you know, an Instagram style relay, maybe it's a TikTok style relay that's only allowing short videos I saw that I think was it was it you or was it Pablo that just published something about 140

680
00:55:52,320 --> 00:56:00,320
character that's probably that filters out. It was Pablo. You guys are both building so much constantly sometimes I get it mixed up, but I think that's really cool.

681
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:15,320
Do you think that that's a good model for relay operators to try and find their niche, and then to say okay if you want this niche that is something that you can pay as a premium offering to say, I value the content this relay provides and curates for me.

682
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:21,320
Is that something that's sustainable as it scales or is that just kind of a nice to have.

683
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:37,320
Yeah, I mean, like, do we pay, you know, website operators for running websites like do we pay Bitcoin nodes for running a Bitcoin node I don't think there's this idea of like paying relays I don't know even if it makes even make sense because relays are actually pretty cheap to run like a run mine and

684
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:52,320
it's not not that much money and if it gets too big I just wipe it and start over like I did that recently with my relay. So I think this like this idea where you know relays every relay needs to be making money is kind of silly and like imagine if the web if you're that was like your vision of the web

685
00:56:52,320 --> 00:57:08,320
and like every website need to be making money to stay online. Maybe if you're like a big relay that's like hosting lots of content, then you may maybe want to find clever ways to monetize it but you know we're moving to a more decentralized model and also where you can run your small relay that

686
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:26,320
can only host your stuff and clients can still find your content. And maybe that's just running on a Raspberry Pi and you know monetization is not important. So, I think, yeah, that's kind of like my thinking I'm moving toward recently is that it maybe is not as important that people are talking about.

687
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:41,320
You know that's I hadn't thought about it from kind of the web perspective before but that makes a ton of sense. Like, if every relay has to always be making money that's maybe that's not as as scalable and it's pretty cheap.

688
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:53,320
Maybe it's going to run a relay like yeah it's expensive for my relays it's like the biggest relay because your relays but most relays are not that big and to run it you probably cost like 20 bucks a month like it's not a not a big deal.

689
00:57:53,320 --> 00:58:13,320
Okay, okay. Now that I think that that's a that's a good perspective and perhaps people's thinking is going to evolve around that as we go forward but back to content specific relays. Do you think that that's something that is widely desired or do you think, let's say, maybe this is kind of

690
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:28,320
the algorithmic front because I know you've been you are not anti algorithm algorithm you are a chronological feed maximum so to speak but you're not anti algorithm and I think for me and I'm guessing for you and for a lot of people.

691
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:44,320
I think the most important thing is just the ability to opt into something or opt out just as long as you have a choice for how you see it so how do you kind of see the. I think I heard in your nostrilsia talk you said you think next year is going to be basically the the year of the algorithms on

692
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:59,320
Twitter. What do you envision that looking like, you know, are you still going to always be a chronological feed maximalist or is there a type of, is there like an in case you missed it feed like I know jacks talked about that is one of the things that early Twitter did really well was like, you've been off for

693
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:14,320
a while. Here's what you missed when you come back like I'll be a you know an algorithm maxi when I I program my own AI that just it knows me so well and it picks up that it finds interesting for me like that would be really awesome you know I it doesn't exist exist yet but you know the

694
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:29,320
important thing is that we set up these are clients in our system so that you know I can just plug in that AI bot when it's ready and it can start feeding me the algorithm is but the important thing is that it's my choice and then I'm and I get to choose it's the same idea it's the same arguments

695
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:38,320
around moderation as well you know that was one of the big things that was when I went to this concert this conference in Spain they're worried about like oh what about like misinformation and disinformation.

696
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:46,320
What's like no like those are only like the bigger the bigger concern is that you know you have one person deciding what's what's true and what's not true.

697
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:52,320
You know so you know the market again solves all these problems if we have a market of algorithms if we have a market of trust and safety teams.

698
00:59:52,320 --> 01:00:07,320
Then you can pick and choose what you think is like appropriate level of moderation or the appropriate algorithm. You know the centralization part of it is what causes the negative effects of algorithms and moderation not to say those things are bad on their own.

699
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:17,320
It's just the centralization aspect of it so yeah I feel like Nasser is is going to be really can have the best moderation it's going to have the best algorithms because it set up the right way.

700
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:35,320
I think that that's honestly a phenomenal point just that the the problem isn't moderation itself it's the centralization of it because as things centralize that means a smaller and smaller group of people get to decide what is quote best for everyone else.

701
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:48,320
And you know invariably one person's utopia is another person's dystopia like that's just how it works. And so the the ability to have choice I think is just freedom of choice is so important there.

702
01:00:48,320 --> 01:01:02,320
Another thing I wanted to touch on was I saw Jack talking the other day I think he was quote quote noting rabble with regard to what's it going to really take to grow noster.

703
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:24,320
And he was talking about search. And I saw in true noster style like a little I think it was maybe earlier today where you posted like OK so I've been working on coding up this this you know a plane or you know full text search engine for the past eight hours it's almost ready.

704
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:40,320
First of all just such a classic noster moment. There's always sense of happening like I'm not at a restaurant like having a nice dinner with my family and like you know and then the bat sign goes up it's like Jack needs something and like I'm like well you got to fix this I'm like fuck fine I'll do it.

705
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:58,320
I like pull out my laptop I write some code and like eight hours later it's like alright guys I think working. But that just goes to show is like I like I actually do like respect you know Jack's you know he has his knowledge and his wisdom from his past you know building Twitter it's like I respect that and like I think he's right like I think search would be amazing if we have.

706
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:19,320
Imagine if not sure was a much better information information like searching you know device where you can just like put all your notes in one place and like search them efficiently and like it becomes way more powerful and you know so yeah I think he's right and I think that's why it's almost done I just did the rest of it today mostly so I'm excited to have it in Thomas hopefully soon.

707
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:29,320
Honestly that's awesome and then the idea of kind of layering in value over the top of that where you know even with things like highlighter calm that Pablo built out.

708
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:50,320
Where you're then assigning value to specific notes or two parts of notes you know with zapps zapps in general to the whole note but with highlighter to parts of long form notes that creates a really interesting layer on top of search where you know you have the potential to really make a value based search algorithm.

709
01:02:50,320 --> 01:03:00,320
Which is kind of interesting granted there are ways that you can of course as we talked about earlier maybe game that with you know what would you call it wash yeah happening.

710
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:16,320
Or something but you know in general I think that there's so much more potential there to actually deliver higher quality information and a better search experience do you do you anticipate is this is the search engine going to be built within.

711
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:21,320
Or do you think this is going to be something separate. Yeah so this search is specifically.

712
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:29,320
So as as a Dhammas person I'm like a client maxi so it's like everything whenever I see like some centralized service like primal or something or some search relay.

713
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:31,320
I'm like fuck I can do that within Dhammas I'm going to do this.

714
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:38,320
I want all of those features to be on your phone and because why not like we have the technology to do that.

715
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:47,320
So obviously it's not going to be have a full view of your entire of the entire network you know I can't store the entire search index for all of NOS on your phone.

716
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:53,320
But you know when you're receiving notes and when you're receiving stuff you're going to be building a local index of stuff you've seen.

717
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:58,320
You know whether you go to someone's profile page you don't scroll all the way down there's still notes down there you might not have seen.

718
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:08,320
So your your phone will know about it when you search it's going to try to search your local local notes if you can't find anything then maybe it'll hit a remote search relay to search for the rest of the wider area wider network.

719
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:12,320
So yeah search is going to get a lot better very very soon which is exciting.

720
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:21,320
Honestly that's that's awesome because I feel like it's there's I've only been on this protocol for just just shy of a year now.

721
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:28,320
And already I'm like I've bookmarked a lot of stuff like that was a really nice really nice feature to be able to use.

722
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:37,320
But there's so many things where I'm just like oh I remember so you know somebody said this like months ago and I'm trying to find it and it's like trying to scroll and it's it makes it difficult.

723
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:47,320
And so I think that that's a also I think search is just a big part of discovery in general, like when you have a more advanced searching method.

724
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:58,320
It makes discovery a little bit easier. I know on Damos now, you know, for some time now there's been the ability to follow hashtags, which I think is is really nice for people who are just getting started.

725
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:04,320
And I when I was switching switching between accounts, maybe it was like a month ago or so.

726
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:19,320
I saw that I saw the onboarding experience again for the first time in a while and it looks, it looks great like I still remember the first time I onboarded to Damos but now it's like, it's very nice and you give some some right you know here's some hashtags that people typically follow

727
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:22,320
here's some, you know, accounts that fall into each of these categories.

728
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:40,320
Are you guys building that out some more do you think that that kind of onboarding process is an area just across no stir across different clients that can be improved upon a lot or what do you think is kind of the is that a big part of hashtag grow no stir, or is it more about the external

729
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:41,320
outreach.

730
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:54,320
Yeah, I mean, I mean the reason we built all that stuff is it's the number one thing that people complain about is when we get feedback from users and it's the number one thing was like when we watch users use Damos, like they'll go they'll open up those creating account, and then they'll just not

731
01:05:54,320 --> 01:06:07,320
following anyone and they'll just like leave and they're like what is this it's just there's nothing here follows the Damos account by default I've actually finally removed following me because like people are like what the fuck is this like crazy guy with like laser eyes and my feet it's all I see when I first

732
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:16,320
started to get the hang of it. So I think that was a good feedback from Jackie's like you need to not auto follow you I'm like okay that's probably that's probably true I'm kind of crazy.

733
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:19,320
So, so that was helpful for onboarding.

734
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:32,320
But then it's just like yeah having like recommended, you know people to follow is kind of important. I think I think I lose perspective of that, you know I'm biased because I have my account already and I have all my followers I don't really care about onboarding but it's a struggle for a lot of

735
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:45,320
people to follow. Sometimes it's I remind I need to remind myself that I like logging out and creating a new account to see how bad it is that experience. Another thing we want to do is which would be kind of cool is is imagine if you wanted to onboard your friend and you know like the types of

736
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:54,320
accounts they would like to follow. So you maybe you would create this code where they if you if you sign up with Damos you enter this code and you'll have your account set up with people already automatically followed.

737
01:06:54,320 --> 01:07:06,320
So we're looking at that as well as like an onboarding thing so yeah we think it's pretty we're pretty important for you know just getting people to you know this overall idea of retention which is something we've been focusing on a lot more at Damos.

738
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:10,320
So that's why we're doing push notifications onboarding.

739
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:15,320
Because yeah because people are just Lee coming and leaving and that's not going to work so.

740
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:24,320
That's it's such a tricky thing to because I mean it's much like with an experience using Bitcoin.

741
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:34,320
If somebody has a difficult even just like marginally difficult or not optimal initial experience.

742
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:46,320
It wouldn't just be the only thing that sticks in their head for maybe years afterwards where they're like I you know I tried this Bitcoin thing or I tried no stirring it just didn't it you know it just comes down to like it didn't work.

743
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:48,320
Yeah, you know it just didn't work.

744
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:56,320
And to make basically to make it as foolproof as possible where it's like when you're coming in.

745
01:07:56,320 --> 01:08:06,320
You don't have to make too many decisions because as you get to the broader and broader user base. It's like okay. You need to oh well hello there little football.

746
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:07,320
Penny.

747
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:09,320
Well hello there penny.

748
01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:16,320
The it is does does she have an account night yet you want to be set up an account for you.

749
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:24,320
I think there's a pretty pretty big catster community I don't have a cat but I do see a good amount of catster posts.

750
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:28,320
We lost the train of thought thing I think.

751
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:40,320
No that's okay. Well you know what that's the that's the beauty of these free roaming discussions, because I did actually there was one other thing on the topic of onboarding and just new folks in general.

752
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:58,320
Do you who do you think is going to be the next wave of nostrils the next wave of no stir adopters and perhaps a better way to frame it would be who do you think the next like community of people is that's going to get censored by whatever platform they're using right now.

753
01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:11,320
Like you know we had a pretty big influx of redditors recently. And I think that much like Bitcoin. A lot of people will come to no stir because their hand is forced a little bit.

754
01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:16,320
They're not going to necessarily seek it out when everything's working fine and they're centralized platform.

755
01:09:16,320 --> 01:09:29,320
But once they start to feel the pain a little bit once they realized, oh, okay, I can be censored or I'm not seeing what I would like to be seeing because somebody else is controlling the information flow.

756
01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:35,320
That forces people to to get smart, you know, and to figure out okay what alternatives are out there.

757
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:44,320
So do you have a feeling for maybe, you know, maybe it's going to be a lot of folks in the the media sphere, who realize you know what,

758
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:54,320
I need to have a way to do censorship resistant publishing and have, you know, and maybe they're running their own relay, just be able to have their own backlog of information they put out.

759
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:56,320
But I'd love to get your thoughts on that.

760
01:09:56,320 --> 01:10:11,320
I mean, what we've been seeing is that every now and then like a country will just like come online. Like with like Thailand was just a thing like see him hashtag see amster, you know, all of a sudden like a large geographical area just like came on board usually from a viral, you know,

761
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:26,320
TikTok, big TikTok video from some influencer in Thailand. And that's enough to kind of bring large, large groups of people. And one way we've been supporting that at Domus is that we'll notice this and they'll start, start creating their own like geographical relays within that area.

762
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:39,320
So now we have a feature in Domus where if you have that region set on your phone, it'll automatically add those bootstrap relays. So again, going toward this idea of engagement like you're more likely to be, you want to interact with people are speaking that language.

763
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:53,320
So it makes sense to have that in your bootstrap relay list. So that's just one thing we've noticed. You know, obviously North America is actually one of the biggest users of Nostra right now. So maybe yeah, get more North American users, but I don't know, I don't maybe not maybe that's not the going to be the biggest thing

764
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:58,320
maybe it's going to be the rest of the world and North America catches up but I don't know we'll see.

765
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:17,320
It's kind of interesting the idea of countries turning on, like, on mass. And, you know, that you're probably right it probably is from like a couple of influencer ticktocks, where people just all of a sudden get the get a bug in their ear and say oh I should check this out.

766
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:37,320
So on the topic of ticktock. I know something that you know people have talked about is, and we kind of touched on this earlier but a ticktock style experience now I think the ticktock algorithm is pretty toxic in general because it really is brilliantly designed to keep people

767
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:45,320
hooked to keep their attention to keep them just scrolling and scrolling and scrolling endlessly.

768
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:56,320
And done in a different way where there is the option to, you know, choose your own adventure, right, let's say, to choose your own algorithmic path.

769
01:11:56,320 --> 01:12:05,320
That's clearly ticktock tapped into something that people really like I mean every other social media platform basically copied that model.

770
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:16,320
I mean do you think we'll see a no-ster client spring up that is, you know, maybe based on their how their relays are filtering and how that client chooses to surface the events.

771
01:12:16,320 --> 01:12:20,320
I actually that it'll be basically that that experience mimicked.

772
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:28,320
I think that I think the ticktock algorithm is probably one of the best algorithms ever I've ever seen because I noticed it like it pushes me out of my bubble every now and then and it puts me into somewhere crazy.

773
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:39,320
Like it put me into like I was like outdoor cooking or something and I'm like I would have never normally scrolled for that stuff and now I'm like out or outdoor cooking maxi.

774
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:46,320
I do like I think that what they're actually doing a pretty something interesting with their algorithm is trying to like at least push people out of their bubbles.

775
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:53,320
So I that's not one thing I like about the ticktock algorithm but yeah sometimes it's just like oh it's just mindless scrolling it's so bad.

776
01:12:53,320 --> 01:13:02,320
And you know a lot of people they fault NOSR for that. It's like they they open up Thomas and they expect an experience like that they want to just not follow anyone and scroll.

777
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:14,320
I get it's like you know you they're busy and they don't want to spend all the time and you know best their time into this app and try to figure it out and try to follow people who they might be interested in they don't that that's like way too many decisions to make for the most people.

778
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:28,320
They just want to scroll and be shown because like in theory like we you know it's not it's not hard to figure out like what people are interested in just from gathering data and what they're looking at like what ticktock does is they look at if you're watching a video for a certain amount of time.

779
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:35,320
And if just the videos that you watch the longest just happens to be the ones that they think you like the most and actually works pretty well.

780
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:46,320
So but that just requires them to collect a lot of data on you and they build a really interesting and like a very invasive personally invasive profile on you so maybe we can start doing that client side.

781
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:52,320
I'm maybe I'm kind of hopeful for maybe we can start doing the stuff with like privacy preserving ways of doing it.

782
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:59,320
I know but we'll see but yeah again next year you're the algorithm people just start playing with these ideas and start building so.

783
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:21,320
Well and I think obviously there are there are good and bad ways to surface people an experience that they like and collecting a shitload of personal data and build in this massive profile of this person and how long they spend on each video and maybe

784
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:31,320
there even eyeball tracking I don't know that's a pretty fucking invasive way but I think the one of the opportunities with no stir is that okay.

785
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:43,320
Building from an opt in perspective from the beginning gives you the opportunity to say okay like what are you into like what do you want to see more of like I think if.

786
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:55,320
And again maybe you know one of the beauties or beautifully terrible things about tick tock is that you don't have to do anything right like you're just opening it up and it's all just served to you there from the moment you have the app downloaded.

787
01:14:55,320 --> 01:15:03,320
You don't need to follow anyone it just it just there and you're just at the feeding trough drinking in all that sweet info sludge.

788
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:17,320
But, but I think you know, I perhaps I'm overly optimistic but I hope that people have slightly more patients to be able to say okay let me at least take 10 seconds to say I'm into this and this and this and this.

789
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:30,320
And that starts to build my experience because I think one of the beautiful things that actually shocks people in a really good way about no stir is when they see a client like Thomas and they look on the app store and they see.

790
01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:39,320
No information is collected about me like that's that's truly unheard of like you there's I cannot think of another app.

791
01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:51,320
That does that maybe you can I don't know, but it's it's truly unheard of because everyone sells your information the state, the age, are United States postal service is allowed to sell your information.

792
01:15:51,320 --> 01:16:09,320
Like, anytime you sign up for something new through our USPS service, you will guaranteed get a flood of new robo calls within the next day and robo emails it's just like a fact and I just think that that's that's so genuinely fucked that our information is just thought of in this commoditized way.

793
01:16:09,320 --> 01:16:25,320
And that's one of the things that I love so much about no stir is that you're, you know, you're not this product anymore. You know, it's not the freemium model where, you know, if you're not paying for it you are the product no it's granted, you're not paying for it on no stir either but at least you can see that

794
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:27,320
they're not, you know, nobody's collecting things.

795
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:40,320
I mean, I mean, I've only kind of like worked at startups my entire life. And one of the things that's so common is just like a natural thing it's like oh you just turn on the analytics so there's even a website where it's called I think it was called segment dot I O where they just streamlined the whole process

796
01:16:40,320 --> 01:16:46,320
you don't you don't turn on one analytics you can just select all the analytics you want, and then press one button and it gets added to your website.

797
01:16:46,320 --> 01:17:00,320
And the thing that changed it for me is when, you know, I was going through all these analytics, and I found one it was like this mouse tracking one, or if you could open up and you can see where they move their mouse on the page like where they were like, and it was like this is just so creepy.

798
01:17:00,320 --> 01:17:15,320
It was just like the creepiest like, it felt like I was like, like a boy or like looking in on your family dinner. Like it was just disturbing like, I was like, at that point I realized it's like, do we even need this like I would we weren't even using it it's just we collecting all this data.

799
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:28,320
And this personal information for what like are we going to make business decisions based on this like no it's just like, so I just had that after that moment I'm like we don't I just like I just became a product like an anti analytics max I just felt like it's unnecessary.

800
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:35,320
You can make business decisions without it's not that it's not that important so I don't think it's necessary.

801
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:50,320
The mouse tracking is such just like a unnecessarily creepy one to it's like I think eyeball tracking is probably like the pinnacle of creepiness. And I mean obviously there you know a lot of things are supposed to protect you from that.

802
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:54,320
But I'm sure it is probably done more than we know.

803
01:17:54,320 --> 01:18:17,320
It's it's a sad thing that, and maybe no stir is the chance at fixing this a little bit but the incentive model is just so broken on these platforms and honestly for for a lot of businesses in general the incentive model is broken but particularly for social media, any sort of news media as well like you just see the, even

804
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:36,320
Twitter's advertising model change where they're now, they're now paying, you know, out a small sum for the vast majority of people but they're paying out something to people for how many impressions they're getting, how many verified impressions they're getting I should say.

805
01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:56,320
And, okay, that's nice but at the same time, I've noticed that you see so much more, like if this is even possible on Twitter, even more just overtly inflammatory or just, but at the same time it's like people are making these really inflammatory statements or questions but they're so mundane and predictable,

806
01:18:56,320 --> 01:19:08,320
because people just know like, oh, this is what gets engagement, and I'm going to do this because when I get more engagement, I get more money. And it's such a, it's such a sad thing to see that.

807
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:22,320
But at the same time, it's like, well, that's just the, that's the world that we're playing in in the centralized playground. I don't know, it's just, it's a bummer to see because the quality of information that you see is then degraded because of the broken model.

808
01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:37,320
This is why I'm like such a believer in the value for value. It's like it feels like it, you know, fixes a lot of these corrupting issues. You know, even just with the advertising, you know, that model in the sense that you're going to, you're going to say whatever you want that you got to say to make the money and it's, you know, it,

809
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:45,320
and it's in some sense, it's just corrupting what you actually want to say, right? Why can't you just say what you want to say and get paid by people who want to hear what you want to say?

810
01:19:45,320 --> 01:19:56,320
So, you know, it should be that simple, but unfortunately, like we, we, everyone's just relying the ad model and the ones really explored any other way because that's just where all the money is, right?

811
01:19:56,320 --> 01:20:02,320
Maybe that'll, maybe that'll never change, but it's, it is kind of a sad state of affairs.

812
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:17,320
No, it's, it's so true. Like, you're, you're essentially self censoring, because you believe that what your new behavior is, is going to accrue you a slightly larger chunk of an already pretty small pie.

813
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:32,320
And unless you're one of the accounts on X that has literally hundreds of thousands or millions of followers, it's like, is that 10 bucks a month really worth the degraded information that you're putting out there?

814
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:34,320
Probably not.

815
01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:57,320
But it's sad. I mean, that's, that's why I'm still honestly very hopeful about value for value enabled through no stir. And honestly, for zappvertising in general, because I think that that is a chance to incentivize better behavior, because it's like when you cut out the middleman,

816
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:11,320
and you're delivering more of that value or all of that value straight to the intended recipient. I think that that just naturally starts to align incentives. It creates a more pure free market for good high value information.

817
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:22,320
And there's always going to be ways this can be gamed. You know, if we think about as well just something I've heard a sailor talk about because he's actually talked about no stir quite a lot.

818
01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:38,320
And one thing he brings up as just a something that, you know, needs to be thought about is just the propagation of AI bots on no stir. Like in these coming years, I think I think it's not just going to be a problem for no stir, I think it's going to be a problem for all platforms

819
01:21:38,320 --> 01:21:47,320
like Twitter, even though they're apparently, you know, verifying everyone and their grandmother still can't figure out their damn problem. Like it's, it's just absurd.

820
01:21:47,320 --> 01:21:55,320
Yeah, I mean, I still I see the blue check on Twitter. It's like your thoughts on that for no reason on Twitter. It's like, you know, they're all they're still all bots. So is it even working?

821
01:21:55,320 --> 01:22:03,320
No, it's truly not the amount of times I will see a my wife, Carla Bitcoin, but it's like Carla Bitcoin.

822
01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:23,320
I will retweet something of mine. I'm like, oh, that's weird. I thought Carla already retweeted that. And then I look and it's like Carla Bitcoin is a handle but with like Stefan Levera's PFP still because this this scammer is in the process of like smolting between one of their

823
01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:36,320
nation's and another. And it's like, I don't see how that's so hard to fix, like with just like a couple of if if then statements. But apparently it really is and I'm probably oversimplifying but it seems like there's some pretty simple checks you could put in place.

824
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:48,320
And then it makes you think they don't want to fix it because their engagement numbers are going to go way down across the board. Right. I'm really excited. I want more spammers come to Nostra because then it's like, then we'll start working on solutions like the spam is kind of weak on us or like

825
01:22:48,320 --> 01:23:02,320
you guys can do way better. It is there's there's like one like optimism bot or something. Okay, well, it's cute like I'm really like you can keep trying. Right. Right.

826
01:23:02,320 --> 01:23:18,320
Well, that's an interesting point that it's it's not really a problem yet that that needs to be fixed. But do you see, you know, the ability for in the next couple of years like people are going to be using various, you know, various programs that are going to get more

827
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:36,320
sophisticated to spin up innumerable bots that behave more and more like actual users. Do you think that Nostra is zap model is actually a way to kind of guard against a little bit of that because you still when you attach a value to spam, the spam becomes more and more

828
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:54,320
difficult to operate at scale. Like, even if you know, five years from now on Nostra, one sad is going to be worth more than it is today. And even for somebody trying to spam one set that's going to be more difficult. So is is Bitcoin enabled value on Nostra kind of the the wall that ends up

829
01:23:54,320 --> 01:24:10,320
protecting Nostra from a lot of that shit. Yeah, I mean, this is why I'm really interested in like these email solutions because my email inbox is a complete disaster and it's phillospam. And so I'm like, Well, if we just had zaps, if I just had like, use just zaps to prioritize certain

830
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:27,320
messages, right? And I imagine spam and like fake accounts and AI bots are going to start slowly take over and the only defense against that is real like things you can't create for free, like what are things you can't create for free on the internet? Well, we have something called Bitcoin and sats.

831
01:24:27,320 --> 01:24:41,320
So just it makes a lot of sense that we will start to use that for filtering. You know, maybe not even just filtering but like ranking content, like maybe the stuff that goes to the top your feed is is the paid stuff and that the very bottom is spam and garbage.

832
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:53,320
So by the time you scroll down, you're like, Well, there's nothing worth down here. Unfortunately, you know, a lot of, you know, people are sending messages for free will get caught in the bottom but you know that's good just because that's just going to be the reality is that, you know, if spam gets that bad

833
01:24:53,320 --> 01:24:58,320
then we'll need to rely on on sats more.

834
01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:09,320
I mean, at least, at least it's built in really as I mean, it's a knit, right? It's already, it's already out there and I think that's a, that's a powerful thing.

835
01:25:09,320 --> 01:25:29,320
One other thing I want to be conscious of your scarce time in this world, but just a couple other things I wanted to just tap on before we close out. One is just, I'd love to get your thoughts just on the wallet of Satoshi news in the US and then also UTXO announced that

836
01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:48,320
Nodeless was getting hit with some money transmitter shit up in Canada. So just, you know, do you see more of that type of enforcement coming down the pipe for, let's say for no stir clients like is that going to are the regulators going to turn their sites to no stir because of zaps.

837
01:25:48,320 --> 01:26:00,320
And because that's, you know, our clients going to be charged with money transmitter, you know, violations. Is that something that you're thinking about at this time or is that they're still not paying attention enough.

838
01:26:00,320 --> 01:26:10,320
I mean, I can never under underestimate how stupid they are. So I'm sure they will try to post it like that. We're like, Oh yeah, you're transmitting money in Dhammas, which is like not even technically true.

839
01:26:10,320 --> 01:26:18,320
You're using another app to transmit the money. So they should be going after those apps first. This is why it's important that we should be focusing on non custodial solutions.

840
01:26:18,320 --> 01:26:24,320
And that's one of the biggest criticisms of this aspect is that it kind of makes it harder to do non custodial.

841
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:39,320
But I feel like once people, yeah, if they start pulling the shit more and more and people start getting cracked down more and more, like that's the point where I'm like, Well, maybe we'll need to revise this aspect to make it easier to do non custodial like get rid of the LNUR requirement, which is something I've always talked about.

842
01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:54,320
But yeah, I mean, I even just me, I started, I'm using this KYC exchange in Canada called Shake Bay. And even now I'm like, Well, I'm going to ditch that now because if they're going to start coming after me, then for running a lightning note, I wouldn't be surprised that they start running coming after people just like running lightning nodes, right.

843
01:26:54,320 --> 01:27:06,320
And I use the lightning the Dhammas lightning note for to like do our merch sales and basically do all the commerce for a Dhammas. So a Dhammas. So yeah, who knows, like, it's it's crazy world out there.

844
01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:17,320
And it's, it's sad that we're at that state where I mean, and perhaps this is just always the case for new technologies that come about.

845
01:27:17,320 --> 01:27:35,320
It's just happening at a much higher rate now because of the information age that we live in. But when you see countries like the United States and like Canada, just decide to absolutely stomp on good tech, because they don't like the people that are operating it

846
01:27:35,320 --> 01:27:39,320
and it shows not to jump through all of their hoops.

847
01:27:39,320 --> 01:27:56,320
You know, and it's all like it all comes down to just protecting from money laundering and terrorist financing and stuff that is never even being done at any meaningful scale through these, you know, Bitcoin enabled solutions, certainly not even close to the scale that it is through the traditional

848
01:27:56,320 --> 01:28:08,320
systems that just it grinds my gears will it, it really does and it's sad to see like people providing great services, like because, you know, people may have problems with wallet of Satoshi for being custodial.

849
01:28:08,320 --> 01:28:23,320
But that is a great service that they were providing in the US. And now it's like, I'm going to keep this this phone forever. I won't be able to update the app, but hopefully I'll still be able to use it through a VPN if they, you know, aren't letting traffic at all to the US.

850
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:44,320
But it's sad to see that like that's people getting cut off from a really valuable service. And, you know, I don't know, it's a, it's like, you know, they always say, Oh, terrorism, like, you know, what is terrorism, you know, like, what maybe maybe the actual terrorism is them like completely sucking all of the energy out of out of our money,

851
01:28:44,320 --> 01:29:01,320
and deflating our currency and causing people where they can't even pay their bills. Like that causes real terror in the world. And who are the terrorists is like the people are diluting our money supply so don't be mad at us because we're just going to a different solution that actually fucking works and is and we're not being robbed every day.

852
01:29:01,320 --> 01:29:19,320
So we're like, we're the terrorists. No, you guys are the fucking terrorists. And we're just trying to protect our money from you. You psychopaths. So you know, fuck them. Like if they eventually come after me, I'm probably going to leave the country and you'll find somewhere in El Salvador, something because I don't know, you just the face or the states are failing, I think, and they're just

853
01:29:19,320 --> 01:29:27,320
they're scrambling to grab as much money as they can before the whole system collapses. That's what it feels like.

854
01:29:27,320 --> 01:29:43,320
Amen. And it is fucking sad, like you genuinely think about the damage that inflation does to people, like, not just like the little things like oh your groceries are more expensive like when economies collapse.

855
01:29:43,320 --> 01:29:58,320
And even when they like just when you go into a session, the even the fucking government statistics will show you that more people die, because more people commit suicide, or more people get sick and don't get care.

856
01:29:58,320 --> 01:30:18,320
This is actual harm, material harm being caused by them just being corrupt, irresponsible fucks. And it's, it's fucking sad. And then as you said to turn around and try to push the blame on to people building open source projects or closed source

857
01:30:18,320 --> 01:30:29,320
projects that simply don't follow all their rules. We're literally building like the life rafts to get away from their broken system and they're just fucking trying to pop them with knives. Like what the fuck?

858
01:30:29,320 --> 01:30:39,320
It's just like, get do something better with your lives to cause more misery for people just trying to survive and to build life rafts from your from the chaos of that even sued.

859
01:30:39,320 --> 01:30:52,320
So it's just like the people who engage in that type of stuff is just like bottom of the barrel, like, just very disappointing that there's people on this planet who don't see what's going on and maybe they are just like they're just feel like they're just doing their job and they don't

860
01:30:52,320 --> 01:31:05,320
they don't really know what's the bigger picture but it's a yeah I mean Bitcoin has showed us the light and this is the only path forward and that's why I've been dedicating most of my life just building on Bitcoin building, you know, on Bitcoin adjacent tech and it's just the most

861
01:31:05,320 --> 01:31:22,320
important thing for humanity right now. It's really sad that majority of the world still sees it as like a scam or not as important as it is but it's the most important technology that you know that I work on that at this point in time I think so.

862
01:31:22,320 --> 01:31:41,320
That is a, that is a really nice note to start to close out on because I don't know how to quite follow that. I do want to say though I'm, I'm so grateful to people like yourself will who are doing the actual building on these protocols like Bitcoin and no

863
01:31:41,320 --> 01:31:57,320
because these two things give me so much hope in the future. At a time when we are just bombarded with the negativity of the fiat world and of the negative consequences that the fiat world has brought upon us.

864
01:31:57,320 --> 01:32:12,320
I would, I think I speak for a lot of our fellow plebs when I say I would be in a pretty dark place. If I didn't have the hope that Bitcoin brings me for the future, because it really is this.

865
01:32:12,320 --> 01:32:29,320
It's a light in the darkness and it's something that it's actually gives me a little bit of faith in, in humanity's potential again. And I think the more people that get that hope and get a little bit of that faith in what we can accomplish together in a very decentralized

866
01:32:29,320 --> 01:32:49,320
way, the better off we're going to be. The last thing I'll end on will is, are you reading anything right now that you would recommend besides notes on noster. I don't know how much time you have for the written word on the page between building and, you know, zapping and

867
01:32:49,320 --> 01:32:51,320
everything else but

868
01:32:51,320 --> 01:33:00,320
for some reason I'm reading something called it's like skunk works by Ben rich that the guy who runs Lockheed Martin.

869
01:33:00,320 --> 01:33:10,320
Because I went down this like rabbit hole of after the David Grush interview with Joe Rogan about like UFOs. I'm like, I'm just like, is this real like is this actually happening or is like, this just another fucking

870
01:33:10,320 --> 01:33:21,320
Psyop. So I started I was just like really digging deep into, you know, what are the competent parts of the US government and like what were they capable of during the times where all this shit was going down. And it is pretty impressive.

871
01:33:21,320 --> 01:33:31,320
So a lot of times we talk about like the government's a competent but there are very small teams within the government who are like really, really good. And Lockheed Martin was one of those examples who built like the spy planes in the 50s and stuff.

872
01:33:31,320 --> 01:33:42,320
So I just find that fascinating about and now it makes me wonder it's like, you know, what are they, what are the competent teams know about Bitcoin and Nostra and like are they doing something about it. And they're just not telling anyone.

873
01:33:42,320 --> 01:33:49,320
Anyway, so that's always always fascinating to me like kind of like the black projects and stuff. So anyway, that's what I've this is a random thing I'm reading you. I just want to know.

874
01:33:49,320 --> 01:33:52,320
No, no, you said it's called skunk works.

875
01:33:52,320 --> 01:34:08,320
I'll have to check that out. It's a little bit of a terrifying prospect that there are competent parts of the government. But what can you do I guess, but will I want to I want to thank you for sharing your scarce time with me here today.

876
01:34:08,320 --> 01:34:22,320
You know, like Bitcoin, your time is very scarce. You spend the vast majority of it building. And for that, I thank you. And thank you to everyone else out there who will listen to this later for sharing your scarce time with us.

877
01:34:22,320 --> 01:34:32,320
So we'll thank you so much. I'm going to go and note about this right now. Maybe I'll post a picture of my feet. Maybe I won't. We'll have to see but thanks so much for all you do.

878
01:34:32,320 --> 01:34:35,320
And thank you. This is awesome.

879
01:34:35,320 --> 01:34:38,320
Cheers. Cheers.

880
01:34:41,320 --> 01:34:55,320
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast. If you are a Bitcoin only company interested in sponsoring another fucking Bitcoin podcast, head to Bitcoin podcast net or hit me up on social media.

881
01:34:55,320 --> 01:35:14,320
On noster, head to primal.net slash Walker and on Twitter, search for at Walker America or at TIT coin podcast. You can also watch the video version of this show on X or on YouTube by going to youtube.com slash at Walker America or rumble by searching for at Walker America.

882
01:35:14,320 --> 01:35:21,320
Bitcoin is scarce. There will only ever be 21 million. But Bitcoin podcasts are abundant.

883
01:35:21,320 --> 01:35:30,320
So thank you for spending your scarce time to listen to another fucking Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.