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I want to make abundantly clear, I think we should end the Fed. I think the Federal Reserve should not exist.

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I think central banks around the world are cartels to support unlimited spending by governments.

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I think the whole reason they exist has nothing to do with stable prices, which they clearly have failed at over the last century.

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We've lost all of our purchasing power of the dollar, even while they've been on watch.

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It's not employment, maximum employment. They say it is, but it's not.

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They are the buyers of debt of last resort.

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And so if the government issues too much debt and the markets can't absorb it, they step in and put it on their balance sheet and we monetize our debt and we cause massive debasement in the currency.

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And they are the cause of inflation. They are not the fighters of inflation.

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I want to be abundantly clear about that. We should get rid of them today. We should fire all of them.

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The whole job is a farce. All of the PhDs who work there, their $3 billion renovation project, nonsense.

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They're stealing from the American people. I hate all of it. It should be ended.

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If I were the head of the Fed, the first thing I would do is fire myself and fire everybody else and shut the building down.

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Turn it into a giant disco or roller skating rink or something.

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Bitcoin is the greatest savings technology that's ever been created.

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Trading it is a fool's errand for the most part.

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Most people will lose purchasing power if they do that for long enough.

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And most people learn to not do that over time.

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There's something beautiful about just providing value, living your life, loving your friends and family, and stacking stats on the side.

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And the Bitcoin price will take care of itself over time.

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and life will get cheaper and your quality of life will improve the longer you're on a Bitcoin standard.

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I believe that to my core.

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Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.

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My name is Walker and this is The Bitcoin Podcast.

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Bitcoin continues to create new blocks every 10 minutes.

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The value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.

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And if you're listening to this right now, remember, you are still early.

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If you're not already, go ahead and subscribe to this show wherever you're watching or listening

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and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.

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If you want to follow me in the show on Noster and X, just head to the show notes to grab the links.

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If you're enjoying The Bitcoin Podcast and want to support it by becoming a paid subscriber,

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You'll get access to ad-free episodes and early releases of select content, plus you'll help support this show.

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Head to the show notes for product discount links, go to walkeramerica.substack.com to get episodes emailed to you,

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and head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else.

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Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk.

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We are live.

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well nice doctor welcome you know i'm always i when i first heard you were like an actual doctor

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too just like knowing you from the bitcoin side i was like are you kidding me like doctor and

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hedge fund manager are you are you still are you still practicing these days or that's that's like

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i i retired for good knock on wood uh and in january in january of this year of 2025 so i've

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I've been not doctoring for about eight months now, and it's been wonderful.

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Congratulations.

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Thank you.

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Is that quite it?

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So how long were you both running a hedge fund and being a doctor?

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11 years.

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So I ran a hedge fund.

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I also had an RIA, an investment advisory firm, separate from the hedge fund, and was a doctor.

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And so, yeah, 11 years of three careers was pretty intense.

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Plus being a dad and a husband.

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Yes.

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at the same time.

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Yes.

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So you weren't busy at all, right?

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Had just too much time in your hands,

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way too much free time.

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Too much time.

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I was a little out of control, I think.

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So I'm settling down now.

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I hit 50 recently and I thought, you know what?

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I think it's time to chill out a little bit.

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A lot of people ask me, they'll say things like,

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oh, it must be nice.

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And I'm like, well, you know,

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having three careers for 11 years has its pros and cons.

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And there are probably quite a bit more cons than pros.

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So I wouldn't recommend it to anybody.

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I'm guessing your wife is probably happy that you've taken a little bit of some stuff off the plate now.

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Definitely. I'm definitely around. I'm going to hang out with my wife a lot more and hang out with my kids more.

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So life is much better. My quality of life is much better.

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That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty impressive.

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You were also, your hedge fund last year was like the top, I forget what the specific classification was,

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but it was like a top hedge fund in the world, right?

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Yeah, I'm trying not to talk about that anymore.

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But yeah, so it was the last time I'll say it is the top performing multi-strategy hedge

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fund in the world in 2024, according to Barkley Hedge data set.

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So for what it's worth.

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Yes, it's good.

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And I just tell people that's not to brag or to flex.

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It's to say, get on a Bitcoin standard, including within your hedge fund.

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Everybody should have Bitcoin, a Bitcoin focus in their hedge fund, or you're just going to

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get left way behind.

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So you've been running the hedge fund now for 11 years. Was Bitcoin a focus that early on,

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or did it become a focus partway through? No, I went through the whole, I mean,

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I don't know if we've ever talked about this, but so I figured out Bitcoin a little bit back in 2015,

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2016-ish time, similar to being a med student, I knew just enough to be dangerous. And I instantly

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turned into a DGN crypto trader. I was literally one of those people, and it's so embarrassing to

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admit who said blockchain, not Bitcoin, that blockchain was the technology that's incredible

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and forget about Bitcoin. And I was also one of those people that then I kind of was starting to

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see, well, maybe there's something to Bitcoin, but I'm going to be one of those people who's

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going to trade crypto to stack more sats. And I looked really smart. And by the way,

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none of this was in my hedge fund. So I didn't even get Bitcoin into my hedge fund until like

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2018, 2019 time. But 2016, 2017, I, if you remember the, if I don't even know, were you into Bitcoin

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back then? Or is it a little bit before time? So I ignored Bitcoin for the first time in 2014.

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And then I thought I didn't realize I could buy a Satoshi's in 2017. And so got a couple of

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Litecoins. And then it wasn't until like, you know, partway through 2020 that I started actually

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going like actually took more than two seconds to look at it and went down the rabbit hole as

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during all the COVID insanity and money printing. And yeah, so it took me a long time ignoring it

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for it to actually spend like more than one minute looking into it. So I have empathy for folks.

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Yeah. Yeah. So you're almost as thick as I was. So yeah, I did that. And the funny part about my

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story is the, and the reason why I asked about it, the exchanges back in 2016, 2017, in order to buy

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these nonsense crypto tokens, you had to exchange them for Bitcoin pairs. They're all paired with

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Bitcoin. And so I basically traded all my Bitcoin away for a diversified portfolio of crypto.

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And then you can probably figure out when I just crushed it in 2017 and then got just decimated in

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2018 and was left with a massive tax bill because of my gains in 2017 and all my trading and basically

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no Bitcoin and just got wrecked. I mean, the portfolio was down like 95% ish and I salvaged

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what I could and, and, you know, put some into Bitcoin at that time and still didn't understand

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it. And like you, it was for me, it was about 2019 till I finally kind of figured Bitcoin out 2020

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till I got serious about it. And then I started, and then, so coming back to my hedge fund,

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started teaching my clients about it in that timeframe. Felt like I had been through the

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the school of stupid myself had, you know, had a lot to teach after that. And that's so that's why

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I've been basically just a Bitcoin maxi since then telling people like, you don't need to go down this

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crypto nonsense. Don't get distracted by the shiny objects, you know, in any bull market when leverage

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is running hot and the economy is running hot. And I'm sure we'll get to this a little bit later.

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But when that happens, like crypto tends to do well, right? The garbage does really well at the

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end of a bull market when leverage is running hot and the animal spirits are running hot.

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So don't get distracted by that.

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Just don't worry about it.

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It's nonsense.

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They're like, I consider them like Bitcoin is the sun.

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And these things are like little matches.

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They flare up and they draw your attention for a couple seconds and then they burn out

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and there's nothing to them versus the sun that's here for, you know, many billions of

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years.

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So anyways, that's my story.

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Matt, I did actually, I did not know that much.

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So I appreciate the context there.

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I mean, it's interesting just, you know, not to give too much breath to altcoins now,

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But it seems the vibe I'm getting is that a lot of the altcoin folks are realizing that they are criminally underexposed to Bitcoin.

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And in fact, their entire little house of cards, which was beneficial for a very select few of them for a while, is kind of coming tumbling down.

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And there's no backstop for any of this.

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And there's no real demand for any of this.

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And it's also like, you know, there is Bitcoin and then there are shit coins.

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Like Bitcoin is finite. Shit coins are infinite. You know, Peter Schiff will make the argument, well, there's so many different cryptos. How can Bitcoin be scarce? And it's like, you misunderstand, Peter, like Bitcoin is scarce. These cryptos are not. And they're like, you can only spin up so many, you know, tens of thousands of coins on pump dot fun or whatever the new shit coin generator du jour is before just people lose their appetite.

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And I feel like Bitcoin treasury companies like are honestly scratching the itch of folks who want to do a little bit more like, you know, a little more gambling side of things like you don't even have to get into crypto.

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Yeah, and I don't know if we want to get into those here, but but I think that those are the flavor of this cycle.

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So they're they're the you know, what everybody is going to be excited about similar to 2021.

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I think on the Bitcoin side, I think Bitcoin miners got a lot of attention back then because they were basically the only other Bitcoin proxy that you could hold in brokerage accounts.

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And then obviously the whole, you know, all of the crypto centralized exchanges, things like that, very reminiscent of 2017, which was the whole ICO scam and all that kind of stuff.

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So every cycle has its flavor.

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And I think this flavor, and by the way, I'm not totally opposed to the Bitcoin treasury companies.

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I have feelings about them and I'm not totally on board with them.

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And I do think they're not.

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Well, I don't know how much.

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Should we get into it?

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You just want to get into Bitcoin Treasury?

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I mean, hey, it's presented itself.

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Let's do it.

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Let's do it.

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All right.

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We're going with the flow.

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So Saylor obviously has the original Bitcoin Treasury company, right?

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And he it has been super fun to watch him do what he is doing.

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And I think he is doing an exceptional job at mining Wall Street, especially the debt side of Wall Street.

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So I love to see that these preferred stock issuers started with convertible debts moving over to preferreds.

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Now, I'm sure you guys have talked about this with other guests.

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I love this and I love to see that he's doing that.

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And this is a way to basically I look at it as he's extracting purchasing power from the dollar based fiat markets and pulling it into the Bitcoin network permanently.

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And I think that's great.

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He's doing an exceptional job. The next person who's doing an exceptional job, I think, is Dylan

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LeClaire and the team over at MetaPlanet. I used to work with Dylan. I know him pretty well. And I

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trust him as a fund manager that he knows what he's doing because he knows the inside out of

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both fiat markets and the Bitcoin market and network as well. So I think he's doing a bang

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up job over at MetaPlanet. I have more qualms about the next wave of Bitcoin treasury companies

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that are coming. And the only real qualms I have to start are is all of these guys are still

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untested. So I like many of the people who are in charge. I don't have, in fact, I would consider

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some of them friends. I think they have good judgment. I think they're intelligent, but we

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still, but they're still untested. So we don't know how they're going to do with this incredible

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role and privilege that they've been given. And so it will be very interesting to see. And I think

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that as this market goes on, I think this, as the bull market goes on, I think these companies are

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going to do very well and attract a lot of attention. And I will be watching closely for the

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chief marketers who are pumping their stock. And that will be a good thing in a bull market,

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right? And then are also deploying a ton of leverage in the late phases of the bull market.

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That will also be a good thing. But those two things will combine to be a severe negative and

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a severe downside shock, I think, when we hit the next bear market. There's always bull and bear

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markets. I believe everything is cyclical in markets all the time. And so I still think we

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have the huge bull run ahead of us at some point in the near future. But then what follows that is

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the inevitable bear market. And so I don't think that many of these companies are going to make it.

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I think that some of them are going to get liquidated. They're going to get margin called,

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including their shareholders, and they're going to lose the Bitcoin on their balance sheets.

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And some people are talking about M&A, like they may get purchased by other Bitcoin treasury

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companies, or they just might lose all their Bitcoin and go out of business and we'll see

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what happens. So that remains to be seen. So people ask me for my opinion on that a lot. I

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think strategy is doing a very good job and I think they're safe in a bear market. I think

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they're built to last. I think MetaPlanet is similarly built to last and everybody else just

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remains to be seen. So it's impossible to answer that until we see how they react through this

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bull market. I am definitely not a trader. I'm trying to hold my Bitcoin for the long term.

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And if you're like me, you need to make sure you keep that Bitcoin safe by going to bitbox.swiss slash walker and using the promo code walker for 5% off the fully open source Bitcoin only Bitbox O2 hardware wallet.

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Then get your Bitcoin off the exchange and into your own self custody.

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Bitcoin is chop solidating right around 100K, but we have companies, nation states and a whole lot of plebs like you and me who are stacking harder than ever.

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so it's going to keep ripping higher but now is the best time for you to get your security locked

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down tight with bitbox plus and i can't emphasize this enough the bitbox 02 is just easy as hell to

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use whether you're brand new to bitcoin it's your first time setting up a hardware wallet so you're

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a little bit nervous it's understandable or you are a well-seasoned psychopath you will have no

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problem with the bitbox and again it's fully open source and bitcoin only but you don't have to

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trust me, you can go and verify that for yourself on their GitHub. When you go to bitbox.swiss

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slash Walker and use the promo code Walker, not only do you get 5% off, but you also help support

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this podcast. So thank you. I think that that's fair. There are definitely like kind of the,

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let's say the, you know, blue chip Bitcoin treasury companies at this point. And then

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there's a lot that are, you know, trying to clearly trying to flip a few, you know,

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few early investor dollars into some quick massive gains and then we'll see what happens after that

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but i mean i'm curious because you said you know you kind of feel that they're the flavor like the

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flavor of this cycle it's fair to say though that like the fundamental difference between these

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bitcoin treasury companies being a vehicle for speculation and various shit coins or nfts or

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whatever being the vehicle or the ico you know boom and then subsequent bust being the vehicle

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for speculation is that all of those prior things on the kind of crypto side of things pulled capital

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that would have otherwise flown into Bitcoin and pulled it into these other shit coins versus these

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Bitcoin treasury companies, they're basically acting as a proxy. So the Bitcoin, like it ends

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up still being accretive for Bitcoin, let's say. It still brings demand to Bitcoin. It just does it

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through a proxy vehicle. Like, is that a fair distinction between the two? Like, we can't quite

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call them the shit coins of this cycle, just because they're speculative. But like, at the

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same time, like they are bringing capital flows into Bitcoin through different avenues.

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Yeah, I do agree with that. So I think there's sort of a hybrid in between. And again, I think

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the responsible managers. So first of all, this is paper Bitcoin we're talking about, right? So

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for people who own shares of these companies, you don't actually own Bitcoin, you own a claim on the

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Bitcoin that the company claims to have. So you're taking risks right there, you're taking operational

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risks, you're taking the risk that the manager in charge, whoever is the CEO or whoever's running

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the Bitcoin strategy, that they're going to do a good job and they're going to do a good job in the

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bull markets and a good job in the bear markets. The trick that this brings, and I kind of alluded

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to it before, is if times get difficult and if they are over leveraged at the wrong times,

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and we could see examples of this with the Bitcoin mining companies in 2021, they were just going off

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the charts parabolic, way outperforming Bitcoin itself. And so they were accumulating debt and

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buying more miners and accumulating more debt and buying more and buying more. And the market ate it

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up right until it stopped eating it up. And then they crashed and burned. And some of the best

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miners of that cycle actually went bankrupt. And so I think that exact same thing is going to happen

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this time around. So you got to be careful if people are hyping things too much and using too

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much leverage, they're going to get wrecked and they're actually going to lose their Bitcoin.

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And the downside of that is if it leads to this exponential move higher, the hockey stick higher at the end of the bull market, it's going to lead to an equally powerful and painful bear market where it just falls super far and super fast.

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And so maybe that won't happen, but I think human behavior is pretty predictable and cyclical.

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And I do think a lot of greed will enter the market and a lot of leverage, and that will have to get flushed out at some point.

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Yeah, I mean, my advice for folks has remained the same.

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And not that I give it financial advice because that's like illegal or something.

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I don't know.

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I need a special license for that.

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But if I were to be someone giving advice, I would say you should buy spot Bitcoin.

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And when you've accumulated a large enough UTXO, you should transfer that to cold storage and you should go provide value somehow in society.

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And that is the best strategy that you could possibly employ.

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100%.

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But, you know, at the same time, you want to do whatever you want with your money.

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You want to speculate on these things, by all means, do it.

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Uh, like, but like, again, at least for me, my, my goal with anything, cause I own a couple

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of shares of a few of these, um, like, and I own, you know, a little bit of micro strategy,

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but ultimately my goal is like, I'm trying to accrue more Bitcoin.

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Like that, that is, that is the goal here.

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The goal is not for me to get more fiat.

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The goal is for me to get more Bitcoin.

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And so, you know, if that's not your goal and your goal is just to get more fiat, like

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that's, that's fine too.

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We're just playing a different game.

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Right.

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And that's also why any of my exposure to these things is like de minimis in the grand scheme of things, because I'm just I'm not my risk profile does not allow me to to own very much.

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That's not just good old fashioned Bitcoin in cold storage.

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And I think that's that's probably the right approach for the vast majority of people.

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100 percent. Absolutely.

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In fact, even though I enjoy this game and enjoy being a fund manager, part of me sort of craves just, I wish I could just be a simple person and just simply.

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Bitcoin is the greatest savings technology that's ever been created.

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I know you know that.

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We know that.

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Trading it is a fool's errand for the most part.

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Most people will lose purchasing power if they do that for long enough.

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And most people learn to not do that over time.

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They have similar stories to you and I.

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And they just simply get to the point where, you know what?

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I would have been better and better off if I would have just simply stacked sats and stayed humble, you know, to paraphrase Odell.

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And so there's something beautiful about that.

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And there's something beautiful about just providing value, living your life, loving your friends and family and stacking sats on the side.

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And the Bitcoin price will take care of itself over time and life will get cheaper and your quality of life will improve the longer you're on a Bitcoin standard.

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I believe that to my core.

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I counsel not only people, but organizations, universities, businesses, whom I have contact with.

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And I just say, do you want to provide better goods and services to your customers or to your students?

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And do you want to do that at a lower cost over time?

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Then you need to get on a Bitcoin standard.

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And if you don't want to, then stay on the dollar standard and keep doing your things you're doing

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and keep raising your prices year after year and keep providing worse services or goods to your customer base.

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It's honestly that simple and people make it so complicated, but that's how the world is.

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No, I mean, amen to all of that, I say.

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I do want to ask you too because you mentioned just kind of the human nature that comes into these cycles, right?

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There's been a lot of talk, whether you want to call it a super cycle, whatever you want to call it, the death of the four-year cycle that we're – this time is different.

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Insert whatever you'd like there.

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But there's been a lot of talk that this time is different, that because of all the capital inflows, not only from Bitcoin treasury companies, the largest of which being obviously MicroStrategy, which is orders of magnitude larger than any others, but also from the ETFs.

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This is a different paradigm from anything we've previously seen at a scale that is different than anything we've previously seen.

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Where are you at with that?

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I mean, do you think you said already you think that, yeah, we still if we get a hockey stick run up, we get still a blow off top, right?

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Do you think we see like do we start to see decreasing volatility in terms of the violence of those tops and those subsequent drops as like just as a natural function of a maturing asset?

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Or like where are you at?

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How are you reading this?

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How are you positioning yourself as we go into these these next few years and then like the subsequent decades to follow?

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How do you look at that?

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Okay, yeah.

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So there are about 10 great questions in rabbit holes.

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Yeah, I tend to do that.

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I'm sorry.

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No, so it's great.

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Okay.

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So first of all, I think that the concept that Bitcoin price moves related to the approximately

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four-year halving cycles, I don't think that's true.

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I'm a macro investor.

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I will say that people who make fun of macro and macro investing don't understand it.

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And if they say that they can't invest well or make good decisions based on macro, you should believe them that they can't.

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But there are fantastic investors over decades who use important macro signals.

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And there is mostly nonsense.

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It's mostly noise.

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There's a little bit of signal in the macro world.

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And if you know what macro signals to look at, you'll generally do pretty well.

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And so what do I mean by that?

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I think these macro assets are driven by a few different factors.

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We've talked about this before.

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Liquidity is a huge thing.

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And everybody talks about liquidity now.

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I'm telling you, like three years ago, nobody talked about liquidity.

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Now everybody talks about liquidity.

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I see it on CNBC, Bloomberg.

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It's on Twitter.

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I'm not even on social media anymore, but it's just everywhere.

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That's a huge driver of asset flows.

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And I think Bitcoin itself is the great absorber of liquidity.

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and it's literally the inverse of fiat currency.

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So if fiat currency is rapidly expanding around the world,

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Bitcoin at some point is going to absorb that.

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And then I like to break things down into three categories

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and I don't mean to talk about gold here

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because there's a lot of gold haters,

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but I came from Bitcoin previously as a gold bug

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because I was looking for sound.

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I'm like Peter, but instead of staying on gold,

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I actually went to the next step and said,

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oh, obviously Bitcoin is 1000 times better than gold, Peter.

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But anyways, that's neither here nor there. Fiat is a depreciating store of value over time. Gold is a stable store of value over time. And you can go back and look 2,000 years ago during the Roman Empire and the cost of goods and services cost about the same per ounce of gold as they do today. That's remarkable, by the way.

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So I always like to give the golf clap to gold for being a stable store of value and the best alternative form of money over the last several thousands of years for humans.

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So golf clap to gold, but then came along the digital age, right?

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Thank you.

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Came along the digital age and then came Bitcoin, right?

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And so Bitcoin is now the much more perfect form of money.

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It's an appreciating store of value.

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And so this appreciating store of value moves based on macro factors similar to other major asset classes.

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So similar to stocks and bonds and real estate and private equity, things like that.

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Like you know there are many different sorts of asset classes that can absorb liquidity and act as store of values Bitcoin So I trying to hit your little questions your points along the way So as it gets bigger so it about a 2 trillion market cap right now

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I do expect it to become slowly less volatile. So yes, I think we'll have a smaller hockey sticks up

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and smaller percentage losses during the bear markets. But I do think we will still definitely

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have cycles. I don't think we're going to get just a steady, slow climb. That would be nice

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and boring, but that's not going to happen for quite a while. I think it needs to get more,

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probably like 10x bigger, about the size of gold, 20 trillion market cap-ish,

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until it really wrings out a lot of that volatility. I will tell people, be careful

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what you wish for, because the less volatile it is, the more unlikely it is that you're going to

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have huge life-changing gains in a short period of time. That's just how it works with volatility.

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I think Saylor has picked up that quote, volatility is vitality. I believe that very

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much. And that's true in the markets. The things I look at, and I talk about this three burner

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analogy for how the price of Bitcoin reacts. So three burner. So the first burner is liquidity.

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We've talked about that ad nauseum. Liquidity has been doing well. The monetary supply around the

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world has been expanding generally throughout the world for the last three years. It bottomed

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about the fourth quarter of 2022, and it's been heading higher ever since.

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that's just sort of steady up and to the right. The second thing that's super interesting is the

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US economy continues to lag. So the US manufacturing indices that have been coming out,

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they've literally, manufacturing has been in a contraction or in a bear market since 2022.

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So we're talking three years of basically a recession for the manufacturing sector.

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Now, on the one hand, that's terrible. And it's terrible if that's the sector you work in,

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And that's your line of work. On the other hand, the U.S. economy is about 90 percent services oriented and 10 percent manufacturing oriented, 10 to 15 percent depends how you look at it.

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So it's not that huge of a deal overall for the overall economy. The services side of the economy is actually doing a little bit better.

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Now, and this I'm glad you brought this up and I'm going off on this huge tangent. Recently, we just got a couple of metrics that just came out.

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So the S&P Global Manufacturing and Services Indices just came out, as well as the ISM Services and Manufacturing PMIs.

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Those are two basically different data sets, and they came out with pretty wildly different numbers.

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So both of them were still showing that manufacturing was in a contraction for the month of July, barely, which is disappointing, and I think is what has led to this disappointing Bitcoin price action.

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And this all leads back to Bitcoin, by the way.

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The second thing is the services, which has been holding up the U.S. economy for the last three years while the manufacturing sector has been dragging.

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The ISM services PMI showed a very weak, barely positive expansionary mode.

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So basically 50.1 on their scale where 50 is neutral.

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If you're above 50, you're expanding.

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If you're below 50, you're contracting.

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It was 50.1.

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That was disappointing.

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But what's interesting is the S&P Global Services PMI, which is a little bit of a different data set, but that was actually much stronger coming in at about 55.1.

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Why does this matter?

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The S&P Global Survey focuses more on American companies, and it's only the business that they're doing here in the United States across small, mid-caps and large-cap U.S. companies.

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It's showing that we're getting a very healthy rebound since we bottomed in April.

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We're back at levels now that we saw in the fourth quarter of 2024.

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Once President Trump, you know, he got nominated, but wasn't yet inaugurated.

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And the economy started really booming for a little bit.

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And then it got scared off by the tariffs.

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Bottom in April has been rising again.

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It's actually looking pretty good.

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Meanwhile, the ISM, and this gets confusing.

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I'm so sorry.

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I wish I had charts to show you this, but the ISM services PMI is very low, sitting at 50.1, barely positive.

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But the difference between that one is the ISM survey is large cap companies looking at their international business.

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So U.S. companies that have international business.

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What that tells me based on what we're seeing here is the world is still confused about the tariffs.

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It's the supply chains are messed up because they're still trying to figure out what to do.

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We finally got clarity with the tariffs at the beginning of August here.

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So I think we're going to see that smooth out.

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And what I expect is this one, this lower one, the ISM survey tends to lag the S&P Global survey, even though the laggard gets more attention.

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So the markets follow the ISM numbers.

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And so they were disappointed.

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So you could actually feel the disappointment in the price of Bitcoin recently.

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It was starting to get up to about $120-ish.

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And then these numbers came in and they fell all the way down to $112 or so.

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How I look at this as a fund manager is, one, it's disappointing.

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But two, I expect the ISM numbers to quickly catch up to the S&P global numbers.

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because the U.S. economy, if you look at that survey and employment surveys and earnings from

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companies that have been coming in for this most recent quarter, U.S. companies are actually doing

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extremely well. And all of the pro-business deregulation, good tax measures, things that

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are coming through are starting to take hold. So that was a really long-winded and esoteric way to

403
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come around to say, I'm very bullish on where the economy is going. I have been as disappointed as

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anybody with the US economy and what's been going on. And I believe, getting back to burner number

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two for Bitcoin price action, that that's what's been holding down the price of Bitcoin, because

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that burner number two hasn't been turned on yet. And I think that we're going to see an acceleration

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in these numbers where the ISM PMI for services and manufacturing are going to start to shoot

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upwards in the coming months. And that's going to light up burner number two under the price of

409
00:30:48,731 --> 00:30:53,671
Bitcoin. And it's going to start. And once you do that, you can get beyond just what the liquidity

410
00:30:53,671 --> 00:30:58,471
metrics are doing, and it will start to push it higher. And you can start to get that exponential

411
00:30:58,471 --> 00:31:02,011
move higher. And then that leads to burner number three. And then I'll stop talking.

412
00:31:02,391 --> 00:31:07,051
Burner number three is at once we get once the economy is running hot, once people are feeling

413
00:31:07,051 --> 00:31:11,311
confident in the economy, and they're making money, and they have money to speculate with,

414
00:31:11,311 --> 00:31:15,151
they start using leverage and they start pushing up the price of Bitcoin.

415
00:31:15,451 --> 00:31:20,471
And that's when they go further on the risk curve and do stupid stuff like bet on crypto nonsense and altcoins.

416
00:31:20,571 --> 00:31:23,631
And I think that's why we'll have a bit of a cycle for those as well.

417
00:31:23,671 --> 00:31:24,631
But I don't really care about those.

418
00:31:25,231 --> 00:31:27,031
But I still think the good times are coming.

419
00:31:27,391 --> 00:31:30,131
It's just been delayed by several months because of all of this,

420
00:31:30,871 --> 00:31:34,711
the new administration and their policies that have created a bunch of uncertainty in the economy.

421
00:31:35,751 --> 00:31:36,891
Does that even make sense?

422
00:31:37,011 --> 00:31:37,651
Did I describe that?

423
00:31:37,771 --> 00:31:39,271
No, it makes great sense.

424
00:31:39,271 --> 00:31:42,731
And actually, that's perfect because the next thing I was going to ask you about was this three burner theory.

425
00:31:42,871 --> 00:31:44,311
So like you just led right into it.

426
00:31:44,431 --> 00:31:48,231
Also, this is your first time on the show, but just know this is always a safe space for rants and tangents.

427
00:31:48,371 --> 00:31:51,071
I like to encourage that because you never know what's going to come out of them.

428
00:31:51,491 --> 00:31:51,771
Appreciate it.

429
00:31:51,791 --> 00:31:55,791
But I do want to ask because I think that explanation makes a ton of sense.

430
00:31:55,791 --> 00:32:21,531
So to bring that back to kind of like the cycles, you're basically, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but reading between the lines, it's like the cycles or the four-year cycles for Bitcoin being having driven, you think is more of just like kind of a narrative and or meme versus this actually being a function of, yeah, it just so happens to coincide with these larger kind of cycles of liquidity, general economic conditions, and then leverage.

431
00:32:21,651 --> 00:32:22,811
Is that fair characterization?

432
00:32:23,191 --> 00:32:23,531
Yes, absolutely.

433
00:32:23,531 --> 00:32:30,311
So they're being driven by the liquidity cycles, which are also, they influence heavily the economic cycles.

434
00:32:30,991 --> 00:32:33,771
And so that's what we've been seeing since the great financial crisis.

435
00:32:33,771 --> 00:32:36,411
So since 2008, 2009, that reset everything.

436
00:32:36,611 --> 00:32:38,671
And then we've been on these four-year loops.

437
00:32:38,711 --> 00:32:41,931
And what happens is companies take out huge amounts of debt.

438
00:32:42,311 --> 00:32:47,091
And then when companies take out debt, they have to refinance it about every three to five years or so.

439
00:32:47,151 --> 00:32:48,491
So on average, four years.

440
00:32:48,531 --> 00:32:50,191
That's why we get these four-year cycles.

441
00:32:50,191 --> 00:33:00,591
And during these refinance segments, what happens is we get into a liquidity shortage in the U.S. and around the world because businesses need to refinance and there's just not enough dollars out there.

442
00:33:01,031 --> 00:33:03,211
So that causes a bit of a panic in the markets.

443
00:33:03,331 --> 00:33:07,211
And that's usually then when central banks come in and they flood the markets with more liquidity.

444
00:33:07,771 --> 00:33:12,611
That allows businesses to, again, refinance for another four years and they roll their debt.

445
00:33:12,971 --> 00:33:14,831
And that starts the next cycle.

446
00:33:14,951 --> 00:33:17,371
And so that's why we have this cyclical behavior.

447
00:33:17,511 --> 00:33:19,671
It's super interesting once you kind of see what's going on.

448
00:33:19,671 --> 00:33:25,091
And for me, what's been the most interesting part, Walker, is that this cycle has been so different.

449
00:33:25,211 --> 00:33:26,191
It's been really unusual.

450
00:33:26,371 --> 00:33:30,291
We had our peaks in 2013 and a peak in 2017 and a peak in 2021.

451
00:33:31,011 --> 00:33:34,311
And I've been saying for a couple of years, I expect a peak in the fourth quarter of 2025.

452
00:33:34,871 --> 00:33:39,851
And when it just didn't come, and then the next month data would come out and it still didn't come, and then it didn't come again.

453
00:33:39,851 --> 00:33:43,051
And so it's been this sort of crab choppy sideways market.

454
00:33:43,171 --> 00:33:45,011
I know people were asking about, is the crab market back?

455
00:33:45,011 --> 00:33:49,211
it is back for now. And that's very disappointing because this is the part of the phase where

456
00:33:49,211 --> 00:33:54,491
historically we should be ramping up much higher. I think it's all explained by what the Trump

457
00:33:54,491 --> 00:33:58,311
administration has been doing, right? They came in and they threw the kitchen sink at the economy.

458
00:33:58,311 --> 00:34:02,051
They were going to do austerity. They were talking up Doge. Elon played a big part.

459
00:34:02,891 --> 00:34:07,491
And if you've noticed, they basically pushed all of that just off the cliff and said, okay,

460
00:34:07,491 --> 00:34:10,911
we're going to grow our way out. That's what they always do, right? They're like,

461
00:34:10,951 --> 00:34:13,391
they're taking the easy path. They're like, we're going to flood the money with,

462
00:34:13,391 --> 00:34:17,471
or flood the markets with liquidity. We're going to just do, you know, we're going to do all these

463
00:34:17,471 --> 00:34:20,551
pro business things and we're going to try to grow our way out of the economy and they're going to

464
00:34:20,551 --> 00:34:24,131
massively increase debt and they're going to massively increase the amount of dollars flowing

465
00:34:24,131 --> 00:34:28,811
around in the markets. And they're going to encourage everybody to take risky behavior and

466
00:34:28,811 --> 00:34:34,011
move further out on the risk curve. And that's coming. And so we're starting to finally see that

467
00:34:34,011 --> 00:34:39,111
in U.S. businesses that this is happening. And I think now that the tariff debate or whatever you

468
00:34:39,111 --> 00:34:44,371
want to call it is settled as of August 1st. You know, he just set dates or set rates for everybody.

469
00:34:44,491 --> 00:34:49,691
So now everybody, I think, except China and a few other outliers, they're still waiting to see what

470
00:34:49,691 --> 00:34:55,051
happens. But for most of the world now, we know what things cost. So if you're a business manager,

471
00:34:55,051 --> 00:35:01,211
you can finally say, okay, I know that if I import goods from pick a country, it's going to be 20%

472
00:35:01,211 --> 00:35:06,351
or whatever the rate is. We can pass some of that on to the consumer. I can ask the exporter to take

473
00:35:06,351 --> 00:35:10,971
a hit, I can take a little bit of a hit, blah, blah, blah. We can now make business decisions

474
00:35:10,971 --> 00:35:17,051
because we have an actual outline to work with. And I think this is where we'll see the economy

475
00:35:17,051 --> 00:35:20,451
start to boom. So as we head into the fourth quarter and first quarter, which I didn't expect,

476
00:35:20,491 --> 00:35:25,171
I want to tell everybody that, you know, I had my high price target for the fourth quarter. I don't

477
00:35:25,171 --> 00:35:29,071
think we're going to get there because of these delays. I think we're going to get pushed into the

478
00:35:29,071 --> 00:35:35,771
first half of 2026, which I think is actually a good thing. It will extend the cycle. And I don't

479
00:35:35,771 --> 00:35:39,071
know what it's going to do after that, but I'm pretty bullish for the next several quarters

480
00:35:39,071 --> 00:35:44,791
in the United States. I want to get into bullishness there, but just as a comment,

481
00:35:44,891 --> 00:35:50,451
like as somebody who runs a business that involves physical goods, I know that we saw

482
00:35:50,451 --> 00:35:55,451
huge behavioral shifts at the start of the kind of the tariff talks where people just basically

483
00:35:55,451 --> 00:35:59,571
said, nope, we got to pause on all spending. Like we, because we don't even know how, like if we

484
00:35:59,571 --> 00:36:03,491
order something now, what kind of treatment it's going to receive by the time it's ready to ship.

485
00:36:03,491 --> 00:36:11,791
So we're just pausing. And that's been the case like for – we saw a little bit of a pickup like in July, just like a little one.

486
00:36:11,951 --> 00:36:20,911
But then now it's – we expect there to be hopefully back to kind of business as usual because people now have at least a little bit of a roadmap to say, OK, we can plan ahead now.

487
00:36:21,031 --> 00:36:25,651
We can actually – it's really hard to run a business when the rules of the game are changing midair.

488
00:36:25,911 --> 00:36:30,811
Like it's impossible. It's difficult. So I think you're right about that.

489
00:36:30,811 --> 00:36:43,991
Yeah. And I like to bring this up, by the way, even if you're pro Trump in general, and even if you are favoring his policies, you still can't run a business if you don't know what your prices are going to be and you don't know what and you don't know if the supply chain will be available.

490
00:36:43,991 --> 00:37:00,811
And so multiply your business now times about 10 billion, and that's what's going on in the world right now. And so the U.S. finally has clarity. The U.S.-related businesses that are functioning just in the U.S., but the international businesses for the first time now since Trump got elected, they have clarity as of August 1st.

491
00:37:00,811 --> 00:37:04,311
So they know other than China, again, that's the wild card.

492
00:37:04,351 --> 00:37:05,091
And that's a big wild card.

493
00:37:05,091 --> 00:37:09,431
But other than China, they have clarity on and they can start running their businesses.

494
00:37:09,631 --> 00:37:17,531
So I predict what we're going to see now as we head into the second, the later half of 2025 and into 2026 is a surge in the business cycle.

495
00:37:17,611 --> 00:37:24,051
And this long delayed, including the manufacturing sector, we're finally going to see a resurgence and we're going to get that spike.

496
00:37:24,051 --> 00:37:53,391
And I think if we get that, so if we see these PMI numbers that I talked about earlier on go past 55 and start heading towards 60, that's when Bitcoin really starts to rev up. That's when the animal spirits come out. That's when all the retail investors get on board. To your point about the ETFs, like people are going to be piling into these, are going to pile into Bitcoin proxies, are going to pile into altcoin nonsense too, I believe, unfortunately. And I think all of those are going to rip higher and that will potentially give us this exponential move higher, that hockey stick higher.

497
00:37:54,051 --> 00:38:03,151
Well, and it could be a very violent move because this is also going to presumably coincide with the Fed, you know, finally like cutting rates.

498
00:38:03,151 --> 00:38:18,711
That's been like the super fascinating thing to me is like, you know, people would always like anti-Bitcoin people would make the argument like as Bitcoin was ripping up in the, you know, kind of the early COVID era that, oh, well, Bitcoin just performs well because it's a low interest rate environment.

499
00:38:18,711 --> 00:38:22,991
And then we saw the most rapid increase in interest rates ever, basically.

500
00:38:23,251 --> 00:38:28,711
And they were kept – after saying we're not even thinking about thinking about raising interest rates, they apparently were thinking about it.

501
00:38:28,731 --> 00:38:30,531
And then they did it, and they did it really, really fast.

502
00:38:30,891 --> 00:38:34,831
And then they've kept them high, I think longer than most analysts expected.

503
00:38:36,171 --> 00:38:48,631
But during that time, Bitcoin has also been chugging along and had various periods where people thought it was really boring, whether that was at the 58K range forever or back in the 80K range for the 85K range.

504
00:38:48,631 --> 00:38:52,951
and now the 100K and then now 100 and whatever we're at now, 115K.

505
00:38:53,531 --> 00:38:56,251
But like we've been steadily chugging higher in an environment

506
00:38:56,251 --> 00:38:59,531
that is supposedly inhospitable to Bitcoin making moves higher.

507
00:39:00,171 --> 00:39:02,771
What happens now when presumably, I mean, I don't know.

508
00:39:02,871 --> 00:39:06,051
I'm curious if you think Jerome Powell is going to be ousted

509
00:39:06,051 --> 00:39:09,851
before the end of his tenure or if they're just going to wait it out,

510
00:39:09,971 --> 00:39:12,331
avoid the hassle and then put in somebody super dovish.

511
00:39:12,911 --> 00:39:14,751
I mean, do you think this is kind of like the perfect storm

512
00:39:14,751 --> 00:39:19,491
for a really just a violent explosion in Bitcoin price action?

513
00:39:19,991 --> 00:39:20,811
So I do.

514
00:39:20,911 --> 00:39:23,991
I do think the Fed will turn dovish for sure.

515
00:39:24,111 --> 00:39:25,371
I think Powell is going to last.

516
00:39:25,491 --> 00:39:27,971
I talked about this on Preston's show a month or two ago.

517
00:39:28,451 --> 00:39:29,471
I think he'll stick it out.

518
00:39:29,531 --> 00:39:30,291
He's very stubborn.

519
00:39:30,571 --> 00:39:31,711
I kind of like the guy.

520
00:39:32,031 --> 00:39:33,531
I don't envy him, his job.

521
00:39:33,551 --> 00:39:36,151
And I want to make abundantly clear, I think we should end the Fed.

522
00:39:36,271 --> 00:39:37,851
I think the Federal Reserve should not exist.

523
00:39:37,851 --> 00:39:42,851
I think central banks around the world are cartels to support unlimited spending by governments.

524
00:39:42,851 --> 00:40:10,691
I think the whole reason they exist has nothing to do with stable prices, which they clearly have failed at over the last century. We've lost all of our purchasing power of the dollar, even while they've been on watch. It's not employment, maximum employment. They say it is, but it's not. They are the buyers of debt of last resort. And so if the government issues too much debt and the markets can't absorb it, they step in and put it on their balance sheet and we monetize our debt and we cause massive debasement in the currency and they are the cause of inflation. They are not the fighters of inflation.

525
00:40:11,411 --> 00:40:12,811
I want to be abundantly clear about that.

526
00:40:12,891 --> 00:40:14,151
We should get rid of them today.

527
00:40:14,311 --> 00:40:15,371
We should fire all of them.

528
00:40:16,191 --> 00:40:20,911
The Fed funds rate, the only thing that we need to do with that is it should simply track

529
00:40:20,911 --> 00:40:26,391
basically one month T-bills or one day T-bills or whatever short term T-bill you want to

530
00:40:26,391 --> 00:40:26,531
do.

531
00:40:26,611 --> 00:40:29,291
There's no reason why that shouldn't be determined by the markets.

532
00:40:29,831 --> 00:40:31,471
The whole job is a farce.

533
00:40:31,751 --> 00:40:36,891
All of the PhDs who work there, their $3 billion renovation project, nonsense.

534
00:40:37,311 --> 00:40:38,911
They're stealing from the American people.

535
00:40:39,091 --> 00:40:39,831
I hate all of it.

536
00:40:39,911 --> 00:40:40,591
It should be ended.

537
00:40:40,691 --> 00:40:46,011
If I were the head of the Fed, the first thing I would do is fire myself and fire everybody else and shut the building down.

538
00:40:46,131 --> 00:40:48,811
Turn it into a giant disco or roller skating rink or something.

539
00:40:50,191 --> 00:40:51,411
So you can probably talk.

540
00:40:51,411 --> 00:40:56,471
They'd be more productive certainly than what they do in there now with their like 500 or however many PhD economists.

541
00:40:56,731 --> 00:40:59,931
Like how many PhD economists does it take to be smarter than the market?

542
00:41:00,091 --> 00:41:02,831
And the answer is like the limit does not exist because they can't be.

543
00:41:02,991 --> 00:41:03,331
Exactly.

544
00:41:03,591 --> 00:41:03,831
Exactly.

545
00:41:03,831 --> 00:41:05,411
The hubris is just astounding.

546
00:41:05,571 --> 00:41:06,571
So I appreciate the caveat.

547
00:41:06,771 --> 00:41:06,971
Yes.

548
00:41:07,051 --> 00:41:09,071
That's my one little side caveat.

549
00:41:09,071 --> 00:41:10,431
Just a little side caveat.

550
00:41:10,691 --> 00:41:17,091
So do I think it will be dovish? Yes. I think that they're going to appoint somebody,

551
00:41:17,411 --> 00:41:24,591
Kevin Worsher, Waller, or whatever, to be the next chair. Do I think they'll be dovish?

552
00:41:24,731 --> 00:41:28,551
Absolutely. Do I think Trump is putting a ton of pressure on them and Besant? Absolutely.

553
00:41:30,151 --> 00:41:34,311
And I do, by the way, believe the Fed funds rate should be lowered for the record.

554
00:41:35,891 --> 00:41:40,451
And short-term rates want to go lower. And the reason we know that is because the two-year yield.

555
00:41:40,451 --> 00:42:05,111
So the two-year yield basically projects out looking two years ahead, and it says this is where you should be. So when we're talking about the one-month and the three-month and the Fed funds rate, the two-year yield, which is currently sitting at 3.705, so about 370, that's saying to the Fed funds rate, which is at 4.33 right now percent, that it should come down about 50 basis points, if not more, like right now.

556
00:42:05,111 --> 00:42:25,791
It's like you're too high. What are you doing? Come down, come down, come down. That's what the bond market is telling the Federal Reserve. And the reason why I care about this is because this great, so they talk about their fight against inflation, which they cause, by the way, they talk about their fight against inflation. They're here to help the lower income Americans who are suffering.

557
00:42:26,611 --> 00:42:29,491
They are causing suffering for the lower income Americans.

558
00:42:29,831 --> 00:42:30,951
And I'll tell you exactly why.

559
00:42:31,491 --> 00:42:36,411
The prime rate in the United States is based completely derived completely from the federal

560
00:42:36,411 --> 00:42:36,951
funds rate.

561
00:42:36,951 --> 00:42:43,191
The prime rate is the rate that all of short-term debt in the United States, variable short-term

562
00:42:43,191 --> 00:42:44,811
debt is based off of.

563
00:42:44,951 --> 00:42:49,411
So if you have credit card debt or a home equity line of credit or small business debt,

564
00:42:49,531 --> 00:42:53,991
or you have a loan out for your car because you can't afford to buy a car, so you took

565
00:42:53,991 --> 00:42:59,571
out a loan for it, that crazy high rate you're paying right now is directly related to the

566
00:42:59,571 --> 00:43:00,311
federal funds rate.

567
00:43:00,691 --> 00:43:06,271
And so if Jerome Powell said, hey, you know what, let's give Americans who are really

568
00:43:06,271 --> 00:43:11,311
hurting right now and who are maxed out on their credit cards just to buy groceries and

569
00:43:11,311 --> 00:43:16,331
to pay for their gas and to pay for their car, if we lowered that by a one percentage

570
00:43:16,331 --> 00:43:21,451
point from four and a half to three and a half percent, that would instantly lower the

571
00:43:21,451 --> 00:43:27,451
credit card debt rates and the HELOC rates and the short-term business loan rates for all Americans

572
00:43:27,451 --> 00:43:33,151
instantly. It literally would do it overnight. And that's why I actually get mad at him for what

573
00:43:33,151 --> 00:43:37,151
he's doing because they say they're doing this, but they're clearly not doing this. They're the

574
00:43:37,151 --> 00:43:43,731
buyers of debt of the US government's debt of last resort. And it just makes me so angry because the

575
00:43:43,731 --> 00:43:48,931
Americans like we have this K-shaped economy right now where we have the people who own assets,

576
00:43:48,931 --> 00:43:52,991
the owner class who's doing pretty well. And then we have the renter class and they're just getting

577
00:43:52,991 --> 00:43:57,971
decimated and they're getting so upset and they're literally dying. They're starving. They're working

578
00:43:57,971 --> 00:44:02,951
three jobs to try to support their families and they can't support their families. And so we're

579
00:44:02,951 --> 00:44:07,691
doing all of these policies that are helping a select group of people who are up here near the

580
00:44:07,691 --> 00:44:13,211
money printers, right? The people who control, create and control the distribution of money.

581
00:44:13,211 --> 00:44:16,951
and everybody else down here is just barely making it.

582
00:44:17,351 --> 00:44:20,231
And this is how wars start and this is how coups start

583
00:44:20,231 --> 00:44:21,751
and this is how civil wars start.

584
00:44:22,711 --> 00:44:24,931
And I just feel like we're right on the precipice right now

585
00:44:24,931 --> 00:44:26,991
and these guys could actually do tangible things

586
00:44:26,991 --> 00:44:29,671
to make the world better, but they refuse

587
00:44:29,671 --> 00:44:32,371
and it just drives me nuts, as you can tell.

588
00:44:33,151 --> 00:44:36,591
Yeah, I mean, I think it should for anybody that has a,

589
00:44:36,951 --> 00:44:38,731
for anyone that understands this stuff

590
00:44:38,731 --> 00:44:41,891
and like you obviously do and many people do,

591
00:44:41,891 --> 00:44:54,131
But then also you have to add in has a conscience and has the ability is not just a raging psychopath without the ability to feel empathy, like who actually cares about their fellow man to any degree or at least cares about their own family.

592
00:44:54,131 --> 00:45:01,491
Like I think you legitimately if you understand this and you don't get angry about it, like you're probably a psychopath like that.

593
00:45:01,491 --> 00:45:11,251
And one percent of the general population is so like I, you know, and if you look at the folks at the Fed, I'm sure like you've got to be a bit of a psychopath like and not in the not in the cool bitcoiner way.

594
00:45:11,251 --> 00:45:17,171
But I mean like in the legitimate like cannot feel empathy, narcissistic, like the real psychopaths.

595
00:45:17,171 --> 00:45:23,831
You would have to be a bit of a psychopath to think that you can control the free market, that you know better than the free market.

596
00:45:23,831 --> 00:45:39,051
And that despite the now decades, many, many decades, over a century of evidence to the contrary, that what you're doing is somehow helpful when in fact it's incredibly, incredibly detrimental to the average person.

597
00:45:39,051 --> 00:45:42,651
Like it's, you know, it should piss you off.

598
00:45:42,651 --> 00:45:51,691
Like, and I think that's the reason why Bitcoiners are so passionate about fixing the money is because like, once you go deep enough down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, you realize how screwed up all this is.

599
00:45:51,691 --> 00:45:55,811
And it's just, it becomes to a point where you're like, well, this just isn't fair.

600
00:45:56,131 --> 00:45:57,491
Like this isn't fair at all.

601
00:45:57,551 --> 00:46:00,491
This, the rules of the game are different for different people.

602
00:46:00,491 --> 00:46:05,351
and like i'd say you know bitcoiners i don't think are ever uh we're not the usually not the commies

603
00:46:05,351 --> 00:46:09,751
clamoring for you know uh from each according to their ability to each according to their need no

604
00:46:09,751 --> 00:46:15,731
no it's just make things fair make the rules of the game the same for everybody and get the goddamn

605
00:46:15,731 --> 00:46:21,371
bankers out of these bureaucratic positions of power where they are able to exert full you know

606
00:46:21,371 --> 00:46:26,731
totalitarian control over the economy i mean that is literally like central uh centralized control

607
00:46:26,731 --> 00:46:31,631
of credit issuance is literally one of Karl Marx's like 10 different step-by-step points

608
00:46:31,631 --> 00:46:36,011
from the communist manifesto on how, like what you should do to usher in a communist state.

609
00:46:36,011 --> 00:46:40,511
Like the Federal Reserve is fundamentally, from a theoretical perspective, a communist

610
00:46:40,511 --> 00:46:44,711
institution. And so, I mean, unless you're a commie, you should want to end the Fed. That's

611
00:46:44,711 --> 00:46:50,571
just, that's all I'm saying, you know? Yeah. And nobody knows that. And what kills me,

612
00:46:50,631 --> 00:46:55,531
and I know what drives a lot of fellow Bitcoiners is the people who are being most taken advantage

613
00:46:55,531 --> 00:47:00,131
of are the ones who don't understand this. They just don't get how it works. They think that this

614
00:47:00,131 --> 00:47:03,371
is just kind of how the world is and there's nothing I can do about it. And so I feel like

615
00:47:03,371 --> 00:47:07,811
as Bitcoiners who spend time studying how money works and how the central bankers work and all

616
00:47:07,811 --> 00:47:11,311
this, it's like the Wizard of Oz, right? It's like we're pulling back the curtain and we're like

617
00:47:11,311 --> 00:47:16,511
saying, look, this is who's doing this to you. Like, this is the problem. And so we're trying

618
00:47:16,511 --> 00:47:20,491
to help as many people as possible. And most people just think, to your point, that we're a

619
00:47:20,491 --> 00:47:23,891
bunch of psychopaths. And like, I don't even care about money. That's another thing is like,

620
00:47:23,891 --> 00:47:53,491
I this my goal isn't to get rich. I don't care. I just want to have, you know, love my family, be around and enjoy my friends and do do things. I'm not trying to get like excessively rich. I just want to help people get out of this thing that they're stuck in. And I want to be a part of I don't believe you can overthrow the system. I believe you can defund it, though. And I think that's what Bitcoin is actively doing is we're defunding DC, we're defunding Davos, and all of these places that are these people doing these terrible things who control money,

621
00:47:53,491 --> 00:47:58,211
printing and creation and distribution and just ruin people's lives by stealing their purchasing

622
00:47:58,211 --> 00:48:03,671
power, we can defund these people. And it's starting to happen right now. And I think when

623
00:48:03,671 --> 00:48:09,151
Bitcoin 10Xs and then 100Xs from where it is right now, the defunding will be very noticeable.

624
00:48:09,151 --> 00:48:15,791
And I think by 100X from now, when Bitcoin say 200 trillion-ish in market cap, it will be very

625
00:48:15,791 --> 00:48:20,931
noticeable. And I think the current institutions as we know them today won't even exist or they'll

626
00:48:20,931 --> 00:48:26,031
only exist as a small little fracture, a little, little fraction of their current selves.

627
00:48:27,031 --> 00:48:28,191
I hope so.

628
00:48:28,271 --> 00:48:30,051
And I think that is like the natural state.

629
00:48:30,131 --> 00:48:32,931
And that's kind of like what I view when people, it's interesting.

630
00:48:32,931 --> 00:48:34,411
And I'd love your take on this too.

631
00:48:34,471 --> 00:48:39,831
But when you see a lot of knee-jerk reactions to quote the, let's say, financialization

632
00:48:39,831 --> 00:48:40,851
of Bitcoin, right?

633
00:48:40,851 --> 00:48:45,351
Or to Bitcoin's incorporation and embrace by the traditional finance system who, you

634
00:48:45,351 --> 00:48:49,011
know, it's like, I thought we were, you know, we were fighting the bankers and now the bankers

635
00:48:49,011 --> 00:48:50,411
are coming in and they're part of this too.

636
00:48:50,411 --> 00:49:23,322
And you got you know BlackRock I was just complaining about BlackRock controlling the world five days ago and now they issuing ETFs and I have some in my retirement account What going on I hate this Like look at this cognitive dissonance But like for me and I said this you know for anyone who a regular listener of the show you have heard this many times before But I think this was like this is what Bitcoin winning looks like Bitcoin winning looks like it being embraced by Wall Street and by governments and by anybody who is looking at it winning and say saying I want a piece of that action

637
00:49:23,542 --> 00:49:29,502
I want a piece of those gains that I see are coming and coming and that, wow, it's the best performing asset in the world.

638
00:49:29,502 --> 00:49:43,482
Why wouldn't I want a part of that? And so I think that that is natural. And, you know, again, the beauty of this, of Bitcoin being what it is, is that it doesn't matter if they embrace it, because they cannot co-opt it.

639
00:49:43,482 --> 00:49:57,362
And if you try to co-opt it or you try to change it in a way that like if you were to change it in a way that was would somehow impact its security or its scarcity, well, then it's going to get forked.

640
00:49:57,522 --> 00:50:08,802
And anybody with money in that game who like would have been the only one who could have exerted a change on it in the first place by trying to fund whatever campaign they could, you know, maybe another change the code campaign.

641
00:50:08,802 --> 00:50:09,922
And we saw, well, that worked out.

642
00:50:10,362 --> 00:50:14,782
But they have a vested interest in not screwing up Bitcoin.

643
00:50:15,282 --> 00:50:18,002
And that's the beauty of this, like this positive sum game theory.

644
00:50:18,962 --> 00:50:26,082
And so, like, I think it was American HODL who said, like, guys, like, we're in the Trojan horse right now.

645
00:50:26,122 --> 00:50:27,062
They've let us in the door.

646
00:50:27,162 --> 00:50:28,042
Just shut up.

647
00:50:30,762 --> 00:50:31,722
You're going to blow it.

648
00:50:31,842 --> 00:50:32,522
Like, be quiet.

649
00:50:32,742 --> 00:50:32,882
You know?

650
00:50:32,982 --> 00:50:34,142
So, like, I don't know.

651
00:50:34,242 --> 00:50:35,682
I'm curious where you sit on that.

652
00:50:35,922 --> 00:50:37,722
Like, how do you think about it?

653
00:50:37,722 --> 00:50:39,682
Is this an inevitable part of Bitcoin winning?

654
00:50:39,922 --> 00:50:41,982
And is there a risk of Bitcoin being co-opted?

655
00:50:42,102 --> 00:50:43,742
Or are we the ones who co-opt?

656
00:50:43,882 --> 00:50:45,002
Is Bitcoin the one who co-op?

657
00:50:45,122 --> 00:50:45,622
Yeah, yeah.

658
00:50:45,742 --> 00:50:48,202
So I agree with your whole train of thought there.

659
00:50:48,242 --> 00:50:49,362
So I think it is inevitable.

660
00:50:49,542 --> 00:50:51,542
I mean, we've been talking about this for five years.

661
00:50:51,782 --> 00:50:52,562
At least I have.

662
00:50:53,462 --> 00:50:55,302
The embrace by Wall Street is inevitable.

663
00:50:55,542 --> 00:50:59,522
We're not going to like it because they're going to financialize it in ways we don't like.

664
00:50:59,522 --> 00:51:06,842
And I always say to people, it's our job as Bitcoiners who do understand it to maintain the heart and the integrity of Bitcoin

665
00:51:06,842 --> 00:51:07,842
and what it stands for.

666
00:51:08,302 --> 00:51:11,042
And I think that just the Trojan horse analogy,

667
00:51:11,122 --> 00:51:11,822
I think is perfect

668
00:51:11,822 --> 00:51:14,042
because we are entering into Wall Street

669
00:51:14,042 --> 00:51:15,322
and what they don't understand

670
00:51:15,322 --> 00:51:17,202
is Bitcoin is going to eat Wall Street

671
00:51:17,202 --> 00:51:18,222
from the inside out.

672
00:51:18,322 --> 00:51:20,342
It literally will take over and consume it.

673
00:51:20,402 --> 00:51:23,562
Kind of like when Neo went into Agent Smith's body

674
00:51:23,562 --> 00:51:25,582
and then he like went around and blew it up.

675
00:51:25,962 --> 00:51:27,602
Like that's how I envision Bitcoin

676
00:51:27,602 --> 00:51:29,602
going on a kind of a slow motion term.

677
00:51:29,702 --> 00:51:31,462
It will eventually just become too big

678
00:51:31,462 --> 00:51:32,862
for Wall Street and too powerful.

679
00:51:33,502 --> 00:51:34,702
And Wall Street will become,

680
00:51:34,862 --> 00:51:35,822
you know, less important

681
00:51:35,822 --> 00:51:41,322
and less relevant in Bitcoin will just absorb all of that purchasing power. So yes, it's inevitable.

682
00:51:41,802 --> 00:51:47,242
Yes, we need to be aware and cognizant and protective of what Bitcoin stands for. We got

683
00:51:47,242 --> 00:51:53,002
to make sure we don't get sucked into the concept of I just I'm here to only get rich, right? Like

684
00:51:53,002 --> 00:51:57,842
we have to preserve the fact that Bitcoin is better money for a better world. We need to keep

685
00:51:57,842 --> 00:52:02,122
building. And that's why I love people like Odell, Jeff Booth, Lynn Alden, Preston, these guys who

686
00:52:02,122 --> 00:52:07,142
are doing this work kind of over in the private equity side, early stage development, we need to

687
00:52:07,142 --> 00:52:13,362
be building out this other system. We need to be building not just a collaborative system between

688
00:52:13,362 --> 00:52:18,262
fiat and Bitcoin. We need to be building a completely separate monetary and financial

689
00:52:18,262 --> 00:52:23,742
network built on Bitcoin because that's where the world is going eventually. We live in this

690
00:52:23,742 --> 00:52:28,122
really interesting time where we're in this sort of transition hybrid phase. I tell people it's

691
00:52:28,122 --> 00:52:33,382
sort of like these hybrid cars that are half, you know, combustion engine, half electric vehicles,

692
00:52:33,882 --> 00:52:38,962
or like a spork. You know, a spork's not really a very good spoon or a fork, but it sort of does

693
00:52:38,962 --> 00:52:43,042
both. Like that's the phase we're in right now. So it feels weird and awkward and we can take

694
00:52:43,042 --> 00:52:46,522
advantage of that. And that's what these Bitcoin treasury companies are. They're taking advantage

695
00:52:46,522 --> 00:52:52,242
of the fact that you can borrow or you can short fiat currency and buy Bitcoin. Like that's an

696
00:52:52,242 --> 00:52:56,442
incredible privilege right now. And that won't last. This window is only open. I called it the

697
00:52:56,442 --> 00:53:00,962
trade of the century a couple of years ago. And I still believe it is if you can borrow short at a

698
00:53:00,962 --> 00:53:06,822
low interest rate, a depreciating currency and buy an appreciating form of money, you should do that

699
00:53:06,822 --> 00:53:12,322
all day, you know, seven days a week if you can, because that you can't, you sort of can't lose if

700
00:53:12,322 --> 00:53:17,702
you can sell a depreciating asset and buy an appreciating asset with the proceeds. You should

701
00:53:17,702 --> 00:53:23,222
do that all day. That's how people get very wealthy. And so anyways, so I'm a huge fan of

702
00:53:23,222 --> 00:53:27,302
the people who are building out the Bitcoin network. So people who are working on layer two

703
00:53:27,302 --> 00:53:32,202
solutions. I personally can't do any of that stuff. I don't have the skill set, but I'm a huge fan.

704
00:53:32,282 --> 00:53:37,122
And so this is kind of where my passion is. These Bitcoin treasury companies are great and they're

705
00:53:37,122 --> 00:53:42,122
siphoning purchasing power out of the fiat system and they should do that. But I want to see them

706
00:53:42,122 --> 00:53:47,682
now start to siphon that into the Bitcoin network. And part of that is just by causing an appreciation

707
00:53:47,682 --> 00:53:49,482
and the purchasing power of Bitcoin.

708
00:53:50,042 --> 00:53:53,182
But I think they can actively help the growth

709
00:53:53,182 --> 00:53:57,142
of these other layer two, layer three, layer four solutions

710
00:53:57,142 --> 00:53:59,602
that are going to create this new monetary network

711
00:53:59,602 --> 00:54:01,142
and financial system for the world.

712
00:54:01,882 --> 00:54:03,842
That's sort of where my heart is, but we'll see.

713
00:54:03,922 --> 00:54:04,482
We'll see what happens.

714
00:54:04,562 --> 00:54:06,422
It's going to be a very interesting five to 10 years.

715
00:54:07,322 --> 00:54:10,002
Yeah, I mean, what I'm extremely bullish on

716
00:54:10,002 --> 00:54:11,702
is like you've got the Bitcoin treasury companies,

717
00:54:11,702 --> 00:54:14,142
obviously, who are going for like a pure play type thing,

718
00:54:14,282 --> 00:54:15,862
which a lot of these new ones are, right?

719
00:54:15,902 --> 00:54:17,182
Like there's not even an operating business.

720
00:54:17,182 --> 00:54:19,342
It's not like, like similar has an operating business.

721
00:54:19,342 --> 00:54:23,782
I mean, MetaPlanet, you could argue like kind of still, they're closer to a pure play though.

722
00:54:24,202 --> 00:54:28,102
A micro strategy obviously still has an operating business, but it's, you know, you know, it's

723
00:54:28,102 --> 00:54:29,342
cashflow positive.

724
00:54:29,342 --> 00:54:33,302
Like they can still use that, but like, it's, you know, fairly small in the grand scheme

725
00:54:33,302 --> 00:54:35,902
of things now, but some of these pure play ones, like they're, it's, they're just like,

726
00:54:35,922 --> 00:54:38,482
we're, you know, we're just, we're buying Bitcoin, right.

727
00:54:38,482 --> 00:54:41,162
You know, we're, we're getting cheap money and we're using it to buy Bitcoin.

728
00:54:42,162 --> 00:54:46,602
But what I'm really excited about, I mean, there's, there's a lot of companies out there

729
00:54:46,602 --> 00:54:49,402
that have had Bitcoin treasuries for a long time.

730
00:54:49,522 --> 00:54:51,082
They're Bitcoin companies, right?

731
00:54:51,522 --> 00:54:53,582
Like Fold comes to mind.

732
00:54:53,742 --> 00:54:55,982
And there was a Will Reeves, the Fold CEO,

733
00:54:56,102 --> 00:54:57,782
just like a great dude,

734
00:54:58,422 --> 00:54:59,762
was up on stage with, I think,

735
00:54:59,882 --> 00:55:03,262
like with MetaPlanet and Summer Scientific

736
00:55:03,262 --> 00:55:05,442
and somebody else during the Bitcoin conference.

737
00:55:05,502 --> 00:55:06,242
And it's kind of interesting

738
00:55:06,242 --> 00:55:08,202
because like Fold's been stacking Bitcoin

739
00:55:08,202 --> 00:55:09,202
and many of these other ones too,

740
00:55:09,322 --> 00:55:10,782
like Adam O'Brien with Bitcoin Well,

741
00:55:10,782 --> 00:55:13,442
they've had more companies than I can count.

742
00:55:14,102 --> 00:55:15,322
Bitcoin companies have had Bitcoin

743
00:55:15,322 --> 00:55:16,082
in their balance sheet.

744
00:55:16,602 --> 00:55:19,622
But they're not, you know, that's just because that's the prudent thing to do.

745
00:55:19,622 --> 00:55:25,462
Like they're doing that because they're Bitcoiners and they say, well, of course, we're going to have Bitcoin on our balance sheet.

746
00:55:25,642 --> 00:55:30,642
We're a Bitcoin company and we know that Bitcoin is literally the best asset we could possibly have on our balance sheet.

747
00:55:30,722 --> 00:55:31,722
So, yeah, yeah, duh.

748
00:55:32,102 --> 00:55:40,002
Like I think I think that like the nice thing about Bitcoin, you know, number go up is that all of those companies benefit in tandem.

749
00:55:40,002 --> 00:56:07,382
And that allows them to have even more, you know, even more capital to deploy to make even better products for this parallel system. And so that I'm super, I'm super bullish on that. And who knows, maybe some of these Bitcoin treasury companies that start out as pure plays, maybe some of them kind of branch into, okay, we've got all this capital, maybe we should deploy some of it to working with, like you said, siphoning some of that into actually the Bitcoin network from an ecosystem perspective. I would love to see that.

750
00:56:07,382 --> 00:56:25,122
Yeah, let's create goods and services that make it a better world, you know, with our huge Bitcoin stash. Totally agree. And I do think, by the way, another inevitability is that all companies in the S&P 500, if they want to survive in the next 10 to 15 years, will have Bitcoin as reserve assets. You just have to.

751
00:56:25,122 --> 00:56:39,602
If you're the CEO or a CFO and you're listening to this, one of your jobs is to put your cash into assets or projects with the best ROIs, the best return on investments.

752
00:56:40,242 --> 00:56:49,782
And if you can't outperform the hurdle rate of Bitcoin, which currently is somewhere in the 40% to 50% range and foreseeably for the next 10 years, probably you could say 30% to 50% or so.

753
00:56:49,782 --> 00:56:54,682
if you don't have a project that can outperform that, you shouldn't be putting that money into

754
00:56:54,682 --> 00:57:00,262
that other whatever asset or line of business or service or whatever you want to do. You should be

755
00:57:00,262 --> 00:57:05,942
saving that in Bitcoin. And so I think that that's inevitable. And I still remember, and probably

756
00:57:05,942 --> 00:57:10,462
nobody but me remembers this, but probably two years ago, I was in a big spaces and I believe

757
00:57:10,462 --> 00:57:15,902
Saylor was in the room. And I actually said publicly in front of him that at some point,

758
00:57:15,902 --> 00:57:21,702
the operating business of MicroStrategy back when it was so-called MicroStrategy will become

759
00:57:21,702 --> 00:57:26,862
so small relative to the Bitcoin they have on their balance sheet and so irrelevant with such

760
00:57:26,862 --> 00:57:34,002
a small ROI that they'll probably just let go of it altogether. And I said, I don't mean this to

761
00:57:34,002 --> 00:57:38,742
be offensive. And I'm sure it's a great business, whatever, and it's chugging out some cash flows,

762
00:57:38,862 --> 00:57:43,742
but it's so tiny compared to what Bitcoin is going to do that you're not even going to care

763
00:57:43,742 --> 00:57:47,402
about that anymore. And you're just going to turn into a Bitcoin strategy company at some point.

764
00:57:47,842 --> 00:57:51,242
And then that's kind of what happened. And that's actually what I think is going to happen to

765
00:57:51,242 --> 00:57:56,382
companies all throughout the S&P 500 is they're going to start with these core Bitcoin positions

766
00:57:56,382 --> 00:58:01,962
that are going to grow and grow and grow at a much higher ROI than all of their other lines of

767
00:58:01,962 --> 00:58:06,362
business. And they're going to be like, what are we even doing this for? And so the S&P 500,

768
00:58:06,822 --> 00:58:10,602
the happy effect of that is even if people don't like Bitcoin, is they're going to have a lot of

769
00:58:10,602 --> 00:58:15,542
Bitcoin exposure simply by owning index funds in the S&P 500 and in the NASDAQ and things like that.

770
00:58:16,302 --> 00:58:20,562
That's the good thing. And at some point, and then as we talked about, it's Bitcoin 10Xs and

771
00:58:20,562 --> 00:58:27,182
then 100Xs. And now it's just this huge behemoth monetary network. It will have slower growth at

772
00:58:27,182 --> 00:58:31,962
that point. And I think about 10 years from now, that will be the time when the growth slows down

773
00:58:31,962 --> 00:58:38,022
to start thinking about how can I create better business lines? What products and services can I

774
00:58:38,022 --> 00:58:42,742
create that can actually outperform the baseline growth of Bitcoin. But I still think we're about

775
00:58:42,742 --> 00:58:46,082
five to 10 years away from that for most business, most businesses.

776
00:58:46,762 --> 00:58:53,322
I agree. And from to your point about the S&P 500, I saw a great chart recently, it was like the S&P

777
00:58:53,322 --> 00:58:59,502
493 or something. It was basically S&P 500 minus the mag seven. And looking at the performance of

778
00:58:59,502 --> 00:59:04,842
that, it's like, oh, my God, this is terrible. Like you take out the mag seven and the S&P 493

779
00:59:04,842 --> 00:59:10,982
is like, like way below even inflation. Like it's not like it's, it's performing terribly.

780
00:59:11,322 --> 00:59:16,382
And so you look at that and it's like, like the mag seven will probably just because they have

781
00:59:16,382 --> 00:59:22,122
the least need to, they will probably be some of the last to really actively adopt Bitcoin, right?

782
00:59:22,122 --> 00:59:25,902
Just because, you know, maybe they, they're also, because they're so big, they're going to be more

783
00:59:25,902 --> 00:59:28,922
slow moving. It's going to be harder. It's going to be harder to get that pushed through. Right.

784
00:59:28,922 --> 00:59:35,482
but for the rest of these companies it's like geez you right now you are you are bleeding against fiat

785
00:59:35,482 --> 00:59:41,422
as a starting point bad enough but you are like you have an axe wound in your like half your leg

786
00:59:41,422 --> 00:59:46,482
is gone from a bitcoin perspective like you you need to do something real quick like sailor was

787
00:59:46,482 --> 00:59:50,802
you know always talking about like zombie companies it's like a lot of companies that don't think

788
00:59:50,802 --> 00:59:55,202
they're zombie companies actually actually are when you look at them especially when you start

789
00:59:55,202 --> 00:59:59,322
to price them against the hurdle rate of Bitcoin. Right. So yeah. And to your point, I mean, how

790
00:59:59,322 --> 01:00:03,242
embarrassing is it to be losing against the debasement rate of your own fiat currency?

791
01:00:03,502 --> 01:00:08,522
And most of these companies are. I'll tell you, I'm optimistic for most of these companies,

792
01:00:08,522 --> 01:00:14,182
though, going forward because of Bitcoin as a balance sheet option now and because of AI.

793
01:00:14,662 --> 01:00:18,602
And I think the effects of AI and we don't we can can or cannot talk about that. That's fine.

794
01:00:19,102 --> 01:00:25,182
But what AI will do is it's going to significantly increase the operating margins of every company

795
01:00:25,182 --> 01:00:29,982
that starts to deploy it, AI is going to become commoditized. It's going to be smarter than every

796
01:00:29,982 --> 01:00:34,962
human by far. And it's moving really, really quickly. And then it's also going to turn into

797
01:00:34,962 --> 01:00:41,062
this embodied AI. So robotics with AI is going to, I think, completely transform businesses,

798
01:00:41,062 --> 01:00:46,642
which will greatly increase operating margins. So these 493 and all the thousands of smaller

799
01:00:46,642 --> 01:00:50,522
companies that are left behind right now and have been left behind basically since the global

800
01:00:50,522 --> 01:00:55,142
financial crisis, they're going to finally, I think, catch a break and start doing well.

801
01:00:55,602 --> 01:01:00,722
The one downside of this is that doesn't mean that people are going to be gainfully employed.

802
01:01:01,282 --> 01:01:05,542
I think the world is changing really fast. And I think a lot of people will be out of work

803
01:01:05,542 --> 01:01:10,942
first on the white collar side. And then later as the robotics side catches up,

804
01:01:11,242 --> 01:01:16,642
even the blue collar side will be affected by it. But it's a crazy world out there. So from a

805
01:01:16,642 --> 01:01:22,102
business perspective, I think their time is coming, thankfully, for all these other businesses that

806
01:01:22,102 --> 01:01:25,842
have been left behind. And they will start to be able to do good for the world and create good

807
01:01:25,842 --> 01:01:31,302
products and services and actually do it profitably. The downside is the world is changing.

808
01:01:31,462 --> 01:01:36,962
And for people who don't realize that, who are behind on Bitcoin one and behind on AI two and

809
01:01:36,962 --> 01:01:43,142
behind on robotics three, I think they have no chance to survive the next 10 to 15 years or so

810
01:01:43,142 --> 01:01:45,402
unless they get educated quickly.

811
01:01:46,582 --> 01:01:48,302
Well, let's dive into that a little bit deeper.

812
01:01:48,422 --> 01:01:50,462
I mean, I assume you also like ascribe

813
01:01:50,462 --> 01:01:53,902
to kind of Jeff Booth's general like thesis

814
01:01:53,902 --> 01:01:55,002
about where this is going.

815
01:01:55,082 --> 01:01:56,642
But can we get into that a little bit more?

816
01:01:56,702 --> 01:02:00,402
Because like for anybody who hasn't heard yourself

817
01:02:00,402 --> 01:02:02,622
or me or Jeff talk about this before,

818
01:02:02,962 --> 01:02:03,622
I have a newsflash,

819
01:02:03,682 --> 01:02:05,462
but technology is naturally deflationary.

820
01:02:05,662 --> 01:02:08,662
Like everything and like AI is accelerating that, right?

821
01:02:08,682 --> 01:02:10,482
And with each new technological revolution,

822
01:02:10,622 --> 01:02:12,102
like that deflation should accelerate.

823
01:02:12,102 --> 01:02:18,702
Right. But shocker, the, you know, the money printers have been been stealing those technology gains from you.

824
01:02:18,742 --> 01:02:20,942
So everything, instead of getting cheaper, has gotten more expensive.

825
01:02:21,362 --> 01:02:24,062
And you've been on the losing end of that trade.

826
01:02:24,362 --> 01:02:26,642
But how do you see this playing out?

827
01:02:26,662 --> 01:02:32,422
Because I think a lot of people see like they rightly ask, OK, well, yeah, everything's naturally deflationary.

828
01:02:32,422 --> 01:02:39,102
OK, you're telling me that now AI is going to be so deflationary that like in order to basically stop the system from exploding,

829
01:02:39,102 --> 01:02:42,882
they're going to have to print so much more fiat just to like to keep because otherwise like

830
01:02:42,882 --> 01:02:47,862
this doesn't work this whole system this house of cards doesn't work if every prices start falling

831
01:02:47,862 --> 01:02:53,002
the marginal cost of production right like they must inflate or everything collapses how do you

832
01:02:53,002 --> 01:02:56,602
square that circle how do you see this playing out and what like do you have a timeline for this

833
01:02:56,602 --> 01:03:02,582
where you're looking at this like kind of this this transition to through ai ai and robotics like

834
01:03:02,582 --> 01:03:08,982
and this massive workforce overhaul that is going to happen right and well so all of these and i

835
01:03:08,982 --> 01:03:13,302
I'd love to touch on all of these. And then also the other thing that I see, which is very concerning,

836
01:03:13,402 --> 01:03:17,742
I don't know if you're a forth turning kind of person, but I think we're spiraling towards war.

837
01:03:17,922 --> 01:03:25,182
I think we are actively actually in a war right now with basically the BRICS nations. And so far,

838
01:03:25,262 --> 01:03:30,162
it's not a hot war where we're actively fighting and losing soldiers, but financially we're in a

839
01:03:30,162 --> 01:03:36,502
war with these nations. I think that my guess is that before Trump is out of office, and assuming

840
01:03:36,502 --> 01:03:42,242
he makes it through his four years, which I think he will. I think we might be in a hot war with

841
01:03:42,242 --> 01:03:47,422
China. And I think the precipitating event will be Taiwan. I think there's going to be an invasion

842
01:03:47,422 --> 01:03:52,062
and we're going to butt heads and we're going to clash. And I hate that that's going to happen,

843
01:03:52,142 --> 01:03:57,002
but I think that's what's happening. Everything I see reading between the lines is that the Trump

844
01:03:57,002 --> 01:04:02,422
administration is firing up the military industrial complex in the US. All of these tariff things,

845
01:04:02,422 --> 01:04:08,202
all of these deregulations and the things they're promoting, the rare earths, the drones,

846
01:04:08,362 --> 01:04:14,022
the technology sector, semiconductors, steel industries, automobiles, these kind of things.

847
01:04:14,382 --> 01:04:20,182
This is all, at least as far as I'm concerned, it's under the guise of we're going to make

848
01:04:20,182 --> 01:04:24,122
America great again and create manufacturing back in America. But what we're really doing

849
01:04:24,122 --> 01:04:29,622
is we're revving up America to become the manufacturing powerhouse of the world like

850
01:04:29,622 --> 01:04:34,542
we were back in the 1930s and 1940s. Can he succeed? I don't know, but they're trying really

851
01:04:34,542 --> 01:04:39,262
hard to do that. And I think there will be some tangible benefits. But what I'm very concerned

852
01:04:39,262 --> 01:04:44,322
about is that we're headed towards a major actual hot war. And why do I bring that up is because

853
01:04:44,322 --> 01:04:48,942
I've been saying for a long time, the only thing that could cause hyperinflation of the US dollar,

854
01:04:48,942 --> 01:04:54,322
I think, is if we get into a massive war, world war with China and Russia, something like that.

855
01:04:54,662 --> 01:04:59,162
I really hope it doesn't happen. But that, you know, we would obviously have to print so much

856
01:04:59,162 --> 01:05:04,322
money, create, you know, the government would borrow so much money that that would cause

857
01:05:04,322 --> 01:05:08,322
massive debasement and that could cause heavy inflation, super inflation.

858
01:05:08,602 --> 01:05:12,222
I don't know about hyperinflation, but a lot of inflation and at a much higher rate than

859
01:05:12,222 --> 01:05:12,862
it currently is.

860
01:05:13,142 --> 01:05:14,522
That's very concerning to me.

861
01:05:15,542 --> 01:05:16,302
Would they?

862
01:05:16,602 --> 01:05:20,702
So then what I think about is what would they do to fight that, right?

863
01:05:20,742 --> 01:05:23,882
In the 30s, they cut off the ability to own gold.

864
01:05:24,442 --> 01:05:28,942
Would they cut off the ability to own Bitcoin somehow and make it really difficult for people?

865
01:05:29,162 --> 01:05:35,142
Obviously, like an underground market for Bitcoin would still exist, but I could see them doing something like that if they were desperate.

866
01:05:35,642 --> 01:05:43,702
The other thing that I think they're going to do, by the way, and why they're embracing stable coins so much and they just passed the Genius Act and all these other things, what they want.

867
01:05:43,782 --> 01:05:52,222
So right now, I believe Tether is number seven or something like that in the world, seven or 17, seven maybe in the world for the amount of treasuries that they own.

868
01:05:53,142 --> 01:05:56,562
To me, this is like the best thing ever to happen to the U.S. government.

869
01:05:56,562 --> 01:05:59,962
What they can do is promote the heck out of stable coins.

870
01:06:00,562 --> 01:06:04,902
Everybody in the world can own the US dollar proxy called a stable coin.

871
01:06:06,022 --> 01:06:11,082
These tether, circle, US banks will all be a part of this.

872
01:06:11,202 --> 01:06:18,202
They will all then own treasuries to back one-to-one the synthetic dollars, the CBDCs

873
01:06:18,202 --> 01:06:20,422
that they're distributing to everybody.

874
01:06:21,102 --> 01:06:24,962
And then what they can do, then the government can do basically financial repression.

875
01:06:24,962 --> 01:06:30,162
So the central banks could say, the Fed can say, we're going to keep the 10-year treasury

876
01:06:30,162 --> 01:06:31,422
rate locked at this amount.

877
01:06:32,162 --> 01:06:34,382
So we're doing yield curve control in effect.

878
01:06:34,742 --> 01:06:35,822
We will buy anything.

879
01:06:36,342 --> 01:06:40,322
If the rate goes higher, we're going to buy the heck out of every bond that's out there.

880
01:06:40,742 --> 01:06:43,802
And basically what they can do is they can let inflation run super hot.

881
01:06:44,002 --> 01:06:46,242
They can keep the interest rate pegged.

882
01:06:46,722 --> 01:06:51,722
Everyone who owns dollars, which is everybody who owns a US stable coin anywhere in the

883
01:06:51,722 --> 01:06:54,022
world, and they can literally just debase everybody.

884
01:06:54,022 --> 01:07:14,642
After World War II, we did that and the Americans were like, I guess it's the price we pay for winning this war and to rebuild America. What's going to happen if this happens and if stable coins really take off, which I think they will, and if we borrow this just insane amount of money, is we're literally going to debase the entire world who's holding the US dollar system.

885
01:07:14,642 --> 01:07:18,602
So to me, this is like jackpot for the US government and for central bankers.

886
01:07:18,742 --> 01:07:23,422
They love the concept of stable coins and love the concept of, to me, this is like the

887
01:07:23,422 --> 01:07:25,482
euro dollar, but just expanding massively.

888
01:07:25,762 --> 01:07:30,402
We can debase the world and still run our war machine, even though we're already massively

889
01:07:30,402 --> 01:07:30,822
bankrupt.

890
01:07:31,042 --> 01:07:35,602
We can still pour all of this, all of these dollars into creating this military industrial

891
01:07:35,602 --> 01:07:37,842
complex to fight China and Russia.

892
01:07:38,482 --> 01:07:39,322
It's crazy.

893
01:07:39,442 --> 01:07:40,622
It's all just crazy to me.

894
01:07:40,702 --> 01:07:43,302
But to me, it's inevitable that this is where we're headed.

895
01:07:43,302 --> 01:07:49,282
and I really hate to see it. And that's the dystopian view. And then what we were originally

896
01:07:49,282 --> 01:07:53,122
talking about is where do we see this going in the Jeff Booth world of technology is deflationary?

897
01:07:53,202 --> 01:07:59,162
First of all, war is super inflationary because it destroys capital. It causes people to put all

898
01:07:59,162 --> 01:08:04,362
of their time and efforts into the war machine who then consumes it and eats it up and just

899
01:08:04,362 --> 01:08:08,442
destroys capital. And it leaves the country with nothing. Even the winning country is left with

900
01:08:08,442 --> 01:08:14,822
nothing. The losers are just decimated and everybody dies and it's horrible. And so you

901
01:08:14,822 --> 01:08:19,122
don't want to see war, right? It's just awful and terrible, but it looks like that's where we're

902
01:08:19,122 --> 01:08:27,502
headed. So I hope I'm wrong. The optimistic view is AI is super deflationary. Robotics,

903
01:08:28,102 --> 01:08:34,022
this is incredible, Walker. I mean, like I'm a former doctor, right? I look at what AI can do

904
01:08:34,022 --> 01:08:38,622
already. And I'm like, we're already about at the point where doctors don't actually,

905
01:08:38,822 --> 01:08:44,202
don't really barely need to exist, right? I mean, the human contact is one thing. But if you said,

906
01:08:44,302 --> 01:08:50,322
if you put any doctor up against chat GBT, I would choose chat GBT to pick the right answer.

907
01:08:50,322 --> 01:08:54,302
Because all of doctoring is just algorithms. You look at a patient, you look at the symptoms,

908
01:08:54,442 --> 01:08:58,902
you look at the blood work, you look at the radiology exams, you go blip, blip, blip,

909
01:08:58,982 --> 01:09:02,742
if this, then this, if this, then this, if this, then this, I think you have this diagnosis,

910
01:09:02,742 --> 01:09:09,862
here's the treatment that's what like computers are made for right and so so and that's doctors

911
01:09:09,862 --> 01:09:15,582
and this is the area i know what about attorneys what about everything else you know that involves

912
01:09:15,582 --> 01:09:20,742
your brain i think that we're almost already at this agi level this artificial general intelligence

913
01:09:20,742 --> 01:09:29,282
where ai is as smart as any human in any subject um at around the world um and then we and once we

914
01:09:29,282 --> 01:09:33,222
surpass that level officially, you move to artificial super intelligence where we can't

915
01:09:33,222 --> 01:09:38,542
even like understand what it's doing at that point. It's the IQ is so far above the human level IQ

916
01:09:38,542 --> 01:09:42,722
that it's discovering new things and they don't even make sense to us. And it has to try to teach

917
01:09:42,722 --> 01:09:46,822
us like we're like a two-year-old because we can't even, you know, I mean, that's what's coming.

918
01:09:46,962 --> 01:09:52,362
And I think it's coming much sooner than people believe. And I believe it would happen even faster

919
01:09:52,362 --> 01:09:58,322
across industries if industries didn't fight it. Like I think healthcare is going to fight it tooth

920
01:09:58,322 --> 01:10:01,182
and nail because doctors like making their salaries and they're going to talk about how

921
01:10:01,182 --> 01:10:06,262
important it is to have. And I, and I, I'm not, I'm not hacking on that. I think the doctor patient

922
01:10:06,262 --> 01:10:11,722
relationship is super popular and the human touch is super popular. Um, but you definitely wouldn't

923
01:10:11,722 --> 01:10:15,482
need the amount of doctors and you certainly don't need the amount of lawyers we have in America.

924
01:10:15,802 --> 01:10:20,302
I was just going to say lawyers, lawyers are screwed. Like, especially the, the paralegals,

925
01:10:20,302 --> 01:10:25,802
like anybody who is not a trial lawyer, basically where you like, if your work is just in the

926
01:10:25,802 --> 01:10:30,882
background, like, I'm sorry, but AI is like, it knows every precedent for every case ever,

927
01:10:30,882 --> 01:10:34,822
like within seconds. But lawyers are going to fight it hard too, because they're lawyers,

928
01:10:34,942 --> 01:10:39,162
right? They built this whole system to enrich themselves. They've made it all complicated on

929
01:10:39,162 --> 01:10:45,002
purpose. So these huge organizations, especially the well-paid professionals are going to fight it

930
01:10:45,002 --> 01:10:49,142
as long as possible, but eventually they'll just be overwhelmed. And eventually what's going to

931
01:10:49,142 --> 01:10:54,302
happen is it's going to be one lawyer with an AI that can handle a hundred times the cases because

932
01:10:54,302 --> 01:10:58,722
the AI just does everything and the lawyer oversees everything. One doctor overseeing,

933
01:10:58,922 --> 01:11:04,602
like say I'm a radiologist or former radiologist, one doctor with a bunch of equipment to do MRIs

934
01:11:04,602 --> 01:11:09,822
and ultrasounds and CTs and the AI reads it all. And the doctor just says, sure. Yep. Yep. I approve.

935
01:11:09,882 --> 01:11:15,622
I approve. I approve. Sign off, sign off, sign off. And all of the other doctors won't last

936
01:11:15,622 --> 01:11:18,442
because they won't, because they're very expensive. It's expensive to have a doctor.

937
01:11:19,422 --> 01:11:24,862
That's going to happen, I think, across the world and across all different white collar professions.

938
01:11:25,182 --> 01:11:33,102
And it's going to be transformative and it's going to cause GDP to skyrocket and it's going to cause unemployment to skyrocket too.

939
01:11:34,022 --> 01:11:36,442
And that's – can I talk about one more thing I've been thinking about?

940
01:11:36,862 --> 01:11:38,722
This is the kind of stuff I do.

941
01:11:40,182 --> 01:11:41,442
Unemployment is skyrocketing.

942
01:11:41,522 --> 01:11:44,462
So I'm a hardcore free market capitalist.

943
01:11:44,462 --> 01:11:48,062
I think that's by far the best system and economy for humans.

944
01:11:48,442 --> 01:12:06,242
What do you do though if unemployment is 30 or 40% or 50% and all of the biggest proponents of free market capitalism are unemployed and they can't find a job and now they can't even go be an Uber driver because there's self-driving Uber drivers now, cars.

945
01:12:07,302 --> 01:12:09,762
Does capitalism work in that society?

946
01:12:10,422 --> 01:12:15,242
And that's what I've been spending a ton of time thinking about over the last few weeks is I don't think it does.

947
01:12:15,242 --> 01:12:33,942
And I think that's going to be this huge shift in humanity and a transition into an entirely new system where humans are the second smartest species and they're unemployed, but they still need to eat and have a place to live and they still want to pursue happiness and freedom.

948
01:12:34,662 --> 01:12:36,822
And what do you do in that world?

949
01:12:36,822 --> 01:12:44,542
And I think this is the crisis that humanity will face in the next 10 to 15 years at the most.

950
01:12:45,242 --> 01:12:49,282
And it's going to be a shockingly different world 15 years from now than it is today.

951
01:12:49,742 --> 01:12:51,382
And that's not even talking about war.

952
01:12:51,462 --> 01:12:56,302
That's just talking about AI and robotics expanding exponentially.

953
01:12:57,342 --> 01:13:09,442
That's a super interesting question because you're basically the point there, if I'm taking the next logical leap, is that it won't be capitalism because basically everybody will be on UBI.

954
01:13:09,442 --> 01:13:12,422
and that's going to be the only option

955
01:13:12,422 --> 01:13:17,562
because literally just a vast swath of the population are unemployable.

956
01:13:17,682 --> 01:13:18,802
There's no job for them to do.

957
01:13:18,802 --> 01:13:21,502
But don't you think this has also been –

958
01:13:21,502 --> 01:13:23,282
is this time different when it comes to AI?

959
01:13:23,462 --> 01:13:25,282
Because this is also the same argument that's made

960
01:13:25,282 --> 01:13:27,842
during every sort of industrial revolution, right?

961
01:13:27,862 --> 01:13:30,922
Every technological revolution is that everyone will be unemployed.

962
01:13:31,162 --> 01:13:33,142
What will the horse and buggy drivers do?

963
01:13:33,922 --> 01:13:43,053
But is this time different Is that what you saying So I spent a ton of time thinking about this sitting here alone in my office And so I probably kind of crazy

964
01:13:43,393 --> 01:13:43,893
And I get it.

965
01:13:43,973 --> 01:13:47,473
I was the person making fun of people being the Luddites, right?

966
01:13:47,633 --> 01:13:52,653
Because every technology shift has the group of Luddites who are opposed to it.

967
01:13:52,913 --> 01:13:54,253
I'm not opposed to it.

968
01:13:54,253 --> 01:14:01,393
But I'm saying I think it will destroy way, way more jobs than it creates for the first time in history.

969
01:14:01,393 --> 01:14:08,393
And I think that humans, especially Americans, are going to have to rethink how we think ourselves.

970
01:14:09,553 --> 01:14:14,413
Meaning when you go to a party and you're small talking with people, you say, hey, I'm Jeff.

971
01:14:14,833 --> 01:14:15,613
What do you do?

972
01:14:15,873 --> 01:14:17,153
Like, that's like the normal question.

973
01:14:17,373 --> 01:14:20,913
And we're not going to ask that anymore because nobody's going to do anything.

974
01:14:21,213 --> 01:14:21,653
Right.

975
01:14:21,793 --> 01:14:28,753
Like for a job, like I'm not into this, but a lot of my colleagues are like, I'm a doctor.

976
01:14:28,753 --> 01:14:33,073
Like I see myself as this doctor, as a social status sort of thing.

977
01:14:33,593 --> 01:14:34,813
Attorneys can be like that.

978
01:14:34,893 --> 01:14:36,253
You know, politicians are like that.

979
01:14:37,973 --> 01:14:40,713
That, what do you do when you don't need doctors anymore?

980
01:14:40,713 --> 01:14:43,913
Because AI is a thousand times smarter than the smartest doctor, right?

981
01:14:43,913 --> 01:14:45,713
Like what would you go to a person for?

982
01:14:45,913 --> 01:14:46,733
That would just, just crazy.

983
01:14:47,273 --> 01:14:51,793
And so, and so I think that it's going to be this entire like cultural shift that's going

984
01:14:51,793 --> 01:14:53,033
to just blow our minds.

985
01:14:53,113 --> 01:14:55,353
And some of us won't be able to handle it.

986
01:14:55,353 --> 01:15:00,993
like the doers, the ambitious people are going to just be like, I'm going nuts. Like, I don't know

987
01:15:00,993 --> 01:15:06,313
what to do. Like, I, like there's, there's robots mowing my lawn and cleaning my house and doing my

988
01:15:06,313 --> 01:15:12,433
dishes. I, I, I could go do a project if I want to for fun, but I don't need to do any of that.

989
01:15:12,653 --> 01:15:19,373
I don't have, you know, if I'm not giving value to people as a physician or as a lawyer or as a

990
01:15:19,373 --> 01:15:23,633
fund manager, right? What do you need a fund manager for? If, if AI can do it a thousand

991
01:15:23,633 --> 01:15:26,653
times better than I can do it. And all you need really to do is save in Bitcoin. Right.

992
01:15:27,373 --> 01:15:34,273
And so, and so like, how do we define ourselves as humans? And then how do you set up a government

993
01:15:34,273 --> 01:15:40,893
in an economy for people who aren't working because the machines and the AI are doing all

994
01:15:40,893 --> 01:15:46,513
of the work? Like, to me, this is super fascinating and, and it's going to come so fast because I'm

995
01:15:46,513 --> 01:15:51,133
watching this come so fast already because it's moving exponentially. And we're thinking like this

996
01:15:51,133 --> 01:15:54,073
And it's going like this, that much faster.

997
01:15:55,133 --> 01:15:59,153
It's like, we're going to be dealing with these questions in the next few years, I think.

998
01:15:59,493 --> 01:16:03,333
And it's going to just rock people, like blow people's minds.

999
01:16:03,573 --> 01:16:07,833
So anyways, this is a really weird conversation, but this is the kind of stuff I've been thinking

1000
01:16:07,833 --> 01:16:08,233
about lately.

1001
01:16:08,313 --> 01:16:09,913
I think the world is going to change rapidly.

1002
01:16:11,553 --> 01:16:13,973
I think it's a super important conversation to have.

1003
01:16:14,053 --> 01:16:18,273
Like, I'm glad you brought this up because I think people like as much as everybody's

1004
01:16:18,273 --> 01:16:18,813
like, yeah, okay.

1005
01:16:18,873 --> 01:16:19,613
AI has changed things.

1006
01:16:19,613 --> 01:16:19,753
Yeah.

1007
01:16:19,753 --> 01:16:20,853
People are going to lose their jobs.

1008
01:16:20,853 --> 01:16:22,893
You know, like there's a, there's a great South Park episode.

1009
01:16:22,953 --> 01:16:26,553
I don't know if you saw this from like the last season they did, uh, where basically

1010
01:16:26,553 --> 01:16:31,093
all the white collar workers are out of a job, you know, and, uh, and the only people

1011
01:16:31,093 --> 01:16:32,313
left are the handymen.

1012
01:16:32,313 --> 01:16:34,213
And it's like, cause nobody knows how to do anything actually.

1013
01:16:34,213 --> 01:16:35,753
Like nobody can fix anything around their house.

1014
01:16:35,753 --> 01:16:37,713
And the handymen are basically, I don't know.

1015
01:16:37,813 --> 01:16:39,533
I don't, this isn't spoiling it too much.

1016
01:16:39,533 --> 01:16:40,013
It's still funny.

1017
01:16:40,033 --> 01:16:40,533
You should watch it.

1018
01:16:40,533 --> 01:16:43,953
But basically by the end of it, like these two competing handymen are the Elon Musk and

1019
01:16:43,953 --> 01:16:44,473
Jeff Bezos.

1020
01:16:44,473 --> 01:16:47,173
And they're in a space race because they've accumulated so much capital.

1021
01:16:47,173 --> 01:16:49,473
Cause they're the only ones who can do anything, you know?

1022
01:16:49,473 --> 01:16:57,253
But it's like maybe that's like South Park is usually fairly prescient with some of these things.

1023
01:16:57,553 --> 01:17:00,213
And like maybe that is where we're going.

1024
01:17:00,513 --> 01:17:02,533
I'm curious, where do you think podcasters fall on this?

1025
01:17:02,673 --> 01:17:11,953
Do we still have a little bit of reputational capital that we can deploy even when you can have a million different AI avatars reading you the news?

1026
01:17:12,193 --> 01:17:13,833
Or we could both be AIs.

1027
01:17:14,553 --> 01:17:16,093
But would people miss us?

1028
01:17:16,113 --> 01:17:16,893
That's really the question.

1029
01:17:16,893 --> 01:17:34,793
I think the people who are used to podcasters would miss podcasters, but I think the people who are on the outskirts wouldn't miss them at all. And I think podcasters days are number two. No offense. You're great. You'll last longer than everybody and you'll be at the top of it before it goes down.

1030
01:17:34,793 --> 01:17:42,253
But even like looking at like the traditional, you know, like legacy media, you know, like cable news, whatever you want to call it.

1031
01:17:42,713 --> 01:17:45,713
That is a job that is just like reading the news.

1032
01:17:45,933 --> 01:17:49,353
Like, okay, that's just a – you can just spin up an avatar.

1033
01:17:49,913 --> 01:17:51,673
Like that's super easy.

1034
01:17:51,813 --> 01:17:52,013
Yes.

1035
01:17:52,853 --> 01:18:01,093
But by the same token, it's like maybe we put too much emphasis on like, well, I would need to know that's a real person.

1036
01:18:01,093 --> 01:18:04,973
And I need to know that their reputation, I need to know I can trust them.

1037
01:18:04,973 --> 01:18:13,673
Because it's like, we're also at this point where people don't trust news personalities anymore because they've found out that they've just been lying to them for and been mouthpieces of the regime for so many years.

1038
01:18:13,713 --> 01:18:16,793
So it's like, yeah, like, I don't care if they're a person or not.

1039
01:18:16,813 --> 01:18:17,613
I just want the truth.

1040
01:18:17,733 --> 01:18:18,873
You know, I don't know.

1041
01:18:19,113 --> 01:18:21,393
Or you might just do it just for fun.

1042
01:18:21,513 --> 01:18:21,753
Right.

1043
01:18:21,773 --> 01:18:24,333
I think like communities will be more important.

1044
01:18:24,393 --> 01:18:26,273
Like humans will just kind of want to band together.

1045
01:18:26,273 --> 01:18:43,313
My question for you is, would you do this? And maybe this is too personal, but would you do your podcast if you didn't need to? Like if you had all of your needs taken care of and you could provide for your family and you had, you know, enough money to take care of your kids and your grandkids for future generations.

1046
01:18:43,313 --> 01:18:48,033
are you you know if a lot of people are driven to do the and i know because i used to do this

1047
01:18:48,033 --> 01:18:53,313
kind of stuff i was driven to make money right and to and to grow business and to whatever

1048
01:18:53,313 --> 01:18:58,193
grow your brand would you still be motivated to do that if you didn't need to do it

1049
01:18:58,193 --> 01:19:04,573
100 and i've talked about this before but like i i never started this show with the intent of

1050
01:19:04,573 --> 01:19:10,513
of making money like i still have i have a fiat job that uh that provides for what uh me and my

1051
01:19:10,513 --> 01:19:15,533
family need. And I like having that fiat job too. It's also, it's like a family, uh, family business.

1052
01:19:15,533 --> 01:19:18,953
Like there's a different bit of satisfaction to it. Cause like you're working within the family,

1053
01:19:18,953 --> 01:19:24,533
but I, I like having that because that means that even if I have no sponsors, which like right now,

1054
01:19:24,533 --> 01:19:27,953
for instance, I'm like in between like some sponsorships ended. Um, these are just, these

1055
01:19:27,953 --> 01:19:31,833
shows are just going to be value for value for a few episodes. And I'm still doing them and

1056
01:19:31,833 --> 01:19:35,513
releasing them because I want to, cause I love being able to have these conversations.

1057
01:19:35,513 --> 01:19:40,953
and honestly like the the deeper reason to beyond like selfishly I like being able to talk with cool

1058
01:19:40,953 --> 01:19:44,273
folks like like yourself and all the other people who are generous enough to share their time

1059
01:19:44,273 --> 01:19:50,693
I if I can do some small thing to be able to move the needle where somebody listed like I got

1060
01:19:50,693 --> 01:19:57,793
podcasts helped me go down the bitcoin rabbit hole like Peter McCormick Guy Swan Preston uh

1061
01:19:57,793 --> 01:20:03,573
Stefan Levera like all these people helped me go down that bitcoin rabbit hole and you I didn't

1062
01:20:03,573 --> 01:20:07,533
know what episode was going to resonate with me particularly. And that's the same thing for so

1063
01:20:07,533 --> 01:20:12,573
many people, I think, is like that's how they get, you know, that first spark, some particular guests,

1064
01:20:12,633 --> 01:20:16,373
some conversation resonates with them. And then they go deeper because you have to actually go

1065
01:20:16,373 --> 01:20:20,413
down the rabbit hole on your own, but you can be shown the entrance by somebody. And so for me,

1066
01:20:20,413 --> 01:20:27,273
it's like, would I do it? Yeah, absolutely. Like, I enjoy doing it. It's a lot of fun for me. And

1067
01:20:27,273 --> 01:20:32,393
I hope that it makes some positive impact because I think that Bitcoin is the most important thing.

1068
01:20:32,393 --> 01:20:34,433
I could be podcasting about right now

1069
01:20:34,433 --> 01:20:36,273
amidst all the other, you know,

1070
01:20:36,333 --> 01:20:37,773
if I could probably be a lot more successful

1071
01:20:37,773 --> 01:20:39,433
with a, you know, a political podcast

1072
01:20:39,433 --> 01:20:41,393
or one of those ones where they, you know,

1073
01:20:41,733 --> 01:20:44,773
get dumb guys and girls to say stupid things to each other.

1074
01:20:44,773 --> 01:20:45,513
But like, that's just,

1075
01:20:45,873 --> 01:20:48,793
that seems like such an absolute waste of time to me

1076
01:20:48,793 --> 01:20:51,213
that I would not do.

1077
01:20:51,633 --> 01:20:54,473
But this, a Bitcoin podcast, hell yeah.

1078
01:20:54,893 --> 01:20:56,293
Right, and to your point too,

1079
01:20:56,453 --> 01:20:59,553
like some of us, we love teaching and we love learning.

1080
01:20:59,673 --> 01:21:01,553
And I think humans will always be like that.

1081
01:21:01,553 --> 01:21:19,533
And so, yeah, could there be a role then for just people who love to teach and learn or to commune with other people for sure? Or like these other ones, these stupid ones where they're just talking about nonsense or, you know, these young kids today follow like influencers while they like put their makeup on and eat food and like they'll sit and watch these people do nothing all day.

1082
01:21:19,533 --> 01:21:24,073
and it just seems insane to me, but that's how people are. They just love to be entertained

1083
01:21:24,073 --> 01:21:30,593
and goof off. And so will that increase or decrease? I guess I don't know. I don't know

1084
01:21:30,593 --> 01:21:36,693
the answer to that. I think more from a professional white collar kind of business and then seeing where

1085
01:21:36,693 --> 01:21:41,333
this is going and seeing the leg of robotics behind there. It's a different world is coming

1086
01:21:41,333 --> 01:21:46,093
and I think it's coming more quickly than most people realize. And so just try to be aware of it.

1087
01:21:46,153 --> 01:21:49,393
If you're a Bitcoiner, look around you a little bit. There's other stuff going on in the world too.

1088
01:21:49,533 --> 01:21:52,293
Besides Bitcoin, even though Bitcoin is probably the coolest thing that's going on.

1089
01:21:53,553 --> 01:21:54,093
It's true.

1090
01:21:54,153 --> 01:21:57,633
It is hard to pick your, to pull yourself out of the rabbit hole every now and then.

1091
01:21:57,633 --> 01:22:04,433
But I'm curious to just this slight sidebar here, but you have been off.

1092
01:22:04,593 --> 01:22:09,633
It's been almost a year since you've been off like any social media except for Noster.

1093
01:22:09,733 --> 01:22:10,233
Is that correct?

1094
01:22:10,433 --> 01:22:10,693
Correct.

1095
01:22:11,373 --> 01:22:11,593
Yep.

1096
01:22:11,953 --> 01:22:15,613
How have you found, why did you do that first and how have you found it?

1097
01:22:15,673 --> 01:22:16,853
Like, how's that been for you?

1098
01:22:17,113 --> 01:22:17,373
Yeah.

1099
01:22:17,553 --> 01:22:19,013
So great question.

1100
01:22:19,013 --> 01:22:26,433
And so I noticed that social media was one consuming a huge portion of my time in my life.

1101
01:22:26,533 --> 01:22:28,113
And I was thinking about it all the time.

1102
01:22:29,073 --> 01:22:30,113
So this is originally.

1103
01:22:30,333 --> 01:22:35,513
So back when I had Facebook and I had LinkedIn and Twitter and whatever else.

1104
01:22:36,653 --> 01:22:42,193
And I noticed, though, that the more I used those sites, the worse my mood was.

1105
01:22:42,333 --> 01:22:43,873
Like I would be agitated.

1106
01:22:44,193 --> 01:22:48,693
And especially during the political seasons, I hate politics to begin with.

1107
01:22:48,693 --> 01:22:50,733
And then you get shunted down these things.

1108
01:22:50,733 --> 01:22:54,893
And then you like get shunted down watching these videos where like people are beating

1109
01:22:54,893 --> 01:22:58,233
each other up and people are dying and like just horrible things.

1110
01:22:58,233 --> 01:22:58,473
Right.

1111
01:22:58,493 --> 01:23:01,133
And, and I would just be like, what am I doing?

1112
01:23:01,133 --> 01:23:02,333
Spending my time doing this.

1113
01:23:02,393 --> 01:23:03,773
And first of all, I'm like way too busy.

1114
01:23:03,773 --> 01:23:05,713
So this is crazy that I'm spending any time.

1115
01:23:05,713 --> 01:23:10,093
So I got rid of everything but Twitter and I did that for a while.

1116
01:23:10,213 --> 01:23:13,953
And then even Twitter started sending me down into this darkness hole.

1117
01:23:13,953 --> 01:23:31,393
And I'll tell you that what did it for me is when I decided to shut down my investment advisory firm and quit trying to promote my brand. And so I get it, by the way, for people who rely on social media to grow your brand, like you kind of need it. So it's a very tough situation for them.

1118
01:23:31,393 --> 01:23:36,013
when I got to the point where I didn't need it anymore because I'm not trying to get new clients

1119
01:23:36,013 --> 01:23:40,653
and I wasn't trying to get, you know, patients as a doctor or anything. Like I literally don't want

1120
01:23:40,653 --> 01:23:44,153
to do anything that has to do with growing me or my brand or my business or anything.

1121
01:23:44,773 --> 01:23:50,613
That made it really easy. So I finally was able to pull the plug on Twitter. I did. That was very

1122
01:23:50,613 --> 01:23:55,793
hard for me. It literally felt like I was like pulling off an arm or something like, cause I was

1123
01:23:55,793 --> 01:24:00,753
so attached to Twitter and I was just on it all the time. And I loved it and I loved the interaction

1124
01:24:00,753 --> 01:24:05,653
And I love the spaces and my pocket friends that, you know, I like all these people that I would interact with all the time.

1125
01:24:07,313 --> 01:24:14,773
So it's that felt like almost like probably how it feels like to give up smoking or something like I just went cold turkey and quit and just went full on.

1126
01:24:14,773 --> 01:24:18,753
I say Noster, Noster Noster. And that was good.

1127
01:24:18,873 --> 01:24:23,733
And I instantly noticed literally like day of and continuing on that.

1128
01:24:23,893 --> 01:24:25,873
I just was in a much lighter mood.

1129
01:24:25,873 --> 01:24:32,793
um it the algorithms there aren't algorithms that push you down into these holes of darkness you know

1130
01:24:32,793 --> 01:24:38,893
to to gain uh retweets and and whatever and followers and so i just was in generally a better

1131
01:24:38,893 --> 01:24:43,053
mood for quite a while and then i'll tell you so that's how i started so i would recommend to

1132
01:24:43,053 --> 01:24:47,013
everybody if you're thinking about it just go ahead and do it you won't regret it i haven't

1133
01:24:47,013 --> 01:24:52,553
regretted for even one second closing facebook or closing linkedin especially which was just a

1134
01:24:52,553 --> 01:24:58,773
pool of solicitation. Can't stand it. Twitter was the hardest one, but I haven't regretted that

1135
01:24:58,773 --> 01:25:07,473
either after the first week or so. Even now though, I'll tell you, Walker, I look at,

1136
01:25:07,733 --> 01:25:13,413
you know what Palantir does, Peter Thiel's company? And I see these guys who harvest data

1137
01:25:13,413 --> 01:25:20,733
and coalesce it for governments to survey their people. And knowing that all of us,

1138
01:25:20,733 --> 01:25:22,233
and including this talk right now

1139
01:25:22,233 --> 01:25:23,873
is going to be somewhere in their system.

1140
01:25:23,873 --> 01:25:25,713
And they're going to use that to determine

1141
01:25:25,713 --> 01:25:27,133
if we're a good guy or bad guy,

1142
01:25:27,193 --> 01:25:28,893
depending on who the administration is.

1143
01:25:29,113 --> 01:25:32,093
And then if they should act against us in the future

1144
01:25:32,093 --> 01:25:33,793
based on predictive models,

1145
01:25:33,793 --> 01:25:35,593
that's literally like what they're doing.

1146
01:25:36,073 --> 01:25:37,473
And I think about this

1147
01:25:37,473 --> 01:25:40,313
and I feel like a crazy conspiracy guy

1148
01:25:40,313 --> 01:25:41,333
with a tinfoil hat,

1149
01:25:41,453 --> 01:25:42,173
but I'm like,

1150
01:25:42,453 --> 01:25:44,393
I don't want to have a digital footprint

1151
01:25:44,393 --> 01:25:47,013
where these people can just know everything

1152
01:25:47,013 --> 01:25:49,513
that I have done and that I'm going to do.

1153
01:25:49,513 --> 01:25:53,653
it just weirds me out. Like I literally just think about it all the time. I'm like,

1154
01:25:53,933 --> 01:25:57,453
I can't stand that this is like this permanent digital record. And they're like,

1155
01:25:57,453 --> 01:26:01,513
people are keeping track of me. Like, I'm literally not a crazy guy. I'm just like,

1156
01:26:01,553 --> 01:26:05,633
just like kind of like living my life. And then I see my other friends that they don't even have

1157
01:26:05,633 --> 01:26:09,853
social media and they don't know what any of this stuff is. They don't care at all. They just live

1158
01:26:09,853 --> 01:26:14,633
their lives. I'm like, that just seems kind of nice. Like, what if I just kind of like hung out

1159
01:26:14,633 --> 01:26:19,753
with my friends and family and had a beer once in a while and, you know, touch some grass.

1160
01:26:20,273 --> 01:26:25,133
And so I'm saying all this to say I'm contemplating very seriously, like just getting rid of Nostra

1161
01:26:25,133 --> 01:26:30,933
as well and going completely offline, maybe doing the occasional interview, but that's where I'm at

1162
01:26:30,933 --> 01:26:36,693
right now. So if people ever see that suddenly I'm just gone, it's either, you know, somebody

1163
01:26:36,693 --> 01:26:40,913
has abducted me and put me in prison or something, but it's probably just that I've shut down my

1164
01:26:40,913 --> 01:26:43,773
social media accounts and I'm living my, my best life.

1165
01:26:44,673 --> 01:26:48,833
Man, I hope, I hope the abduction is not the case. We, we, we, we, we need, you need a,

1166
01:26:48,893 --> 01:26:53,453
you need a, you know, whatever a dead man switch or whatever, in case you're, they, they, they

1167
01:26:53,453 --> 01:26:57,773
try to put you away. That's maybe that's, that's a good, that's a good micro app for somebody to

1168
01:26:57,773 --> 01:27:02,413
build in a, maybe we can, we can, Jeff will vibe code it together. We'll see what we can do. But

1169
01:27:02,413 --> 01:27:08,213
no, I love that. I mean, cause you gave up, you had a pretty decent sized Twitter following too,

1170
01:27:08,213 --> 01:27:14,093
when you gave it up yeah yeah it was like 98 000 so yeah not huge but not small either i mean that's

1171
01:27:14,093 --> 01:27:18,773
that's it's it's pretty i come from a town of like 2 000 people so that's you know like 50 of my

1172
01:27:18,773 --> 01:27:23,953
my hometowns right there um you know but i always i always benchmark things against uh

1173
01:27:23,953 --> 01:27:28,133
against those early childhood uh numbers but i think that that's really cool and i think

1174
01:27:28,133 --> 01:27:35,653
you know it's the first step is being conscious of what these algorithms these centralized

1175
01:27:35,653 --> 01:27:40,273
platforms are doing to you. Like you need, you need to identify it first before you have any

1176
01:27:40,273 --> 01:27:44,853
chance of kind of being, you know, resisting it. Like you must be aware of it. That's, that's the

1177
01:27:44,853 --> 01:27:49,733
thing that most people just aren't, aren't even aware of it or are aware of it in some kind of

1178
01:27:49,733 --> 01:27:55,393
general way, but they haven't actually really thought about like, oh, like, why am I, why am

1179
01:27:55,393 --> 01:27:59,793
I getting angry at, at this third video I watched? You know, like I just, you know, especially with

1180
01:27:59,793 --> 01:28:03,413
Like the way TikTok is, I've still never downloaded TikTok.

1181
01:28:03,953 --> 01:28:05,933
I have no plans to do so.

1182
01:28:06,353 --> 01:28:07,813
Carla had it downloaded for a little while,

1183
01:28:07,833 --> 01:28:11,573
only on her phone when we were posting our crypto couple videos there

1184
01:28:11,573 --> 01:28:13,213
until they started shadow banning us.

1185
01:28:13,253 --> 01:28:13,973
Then we just gave it up.

1186
01:28:14,453 --> 01:28:17,193
But like that is really destructive where it's just like the constant,

1187
01:28:17,513 --> 01:28:20,353
there's never a break between scrolling and visual stimuli.

1188
01:28:20,813 --> 01:28:22,813
And it is just, it is learning.

1189
01:28:22,813 --> 01:28:24,953
Like they're getting so good at learning about you

1190
01:28:24,953 --> 01:28:26,673
and figuring out exactly what makes you tick

1191
01:28:26,673 --> 01:28:27,953
and exactly what pisses you off.

1192
01:28:28,033 --> 01:28:28,853
And that's the key.

1193
01:28:28,853 --> 01:28:32,333
It's like it's the rage bait that really gets you to stay engaged, right?

1194
01:28:32,393 --> 01:28:38,193
Like you generally – you're not going to be engaged as long with like with happy stuff, like maybe for a little while.

1195
01:28:38,313 --> 01:28:46,413
But the rage bait, that's what gets you, you know, head getting closer to the screen and you're getting angry, getting ready to send that snappy reply.

1196
01:28:46,573 --> 01:28:47,633
Like that's what gets people.

1197
01:28:47,633 --> 01:28:53,973
But it's just like it's super destructive to people's health, like both mental and physical.

1198
01:28:54,173 --> 01:28:56,573
And like I really – I worry too about this.

1199
01:28:56,573 --> 01:29:01,013
you know, uh, I, I didn't grow up with smartphones. Like I was, you know, I, uh,

1200
01:29:01,713 --> 01:29:07,093
was not a pure digital native. Like I, you know, remember, you know, a dial up and DSL and all of

1201
01:29:07,093 --> 01:29:10,733
that stuff like that. That was, you know, that, that was, that was my upbringing. You know, I

1202
01:29:10,733 --> 01:29:15,313
don't think I had a cell phone even until I was maybe like 16. Um, but kids now it's like, they've

1203
01:29:15,313 --> 01:29:23,553
got a, a supercomputer from before they're 10. Like that is what with access to the internet

1204
01:29:23,553 --> 01:29:28,953
and social media and like what a great tool for some things of course like like anything this

1205
01:29:28,953 --> 01:29:35,513
laptop this phone they're great tools but they are really destructive if used inappropriately as well

1206
01:29:35,513 --> 01:29:39,793
and like that i just i don't think we have any idea what the long-term effects of that are going

1207
01:29:39,793 --> 01:29:45,053
to be like we're starting to maybe but like it's going to accelerate it's going to get worse like

1208
01:29:45,053 --> 01:29:48,753
that's why people sit around and watch you know some influencer eat their breakfast lunch and

1209
01:29:48,753 --> 01:29:52,313
dinner because it's like they haven't learned how to actually make friends with people in the real

1210
01:29:52,313 --> 01:29:58,653
world. It's sad. I don't know. I'm glad most of it exists because it is a different vibe.

1211
01:29:58,753 --> 01:30:02,073
It is a totally different vibe. You don't feel like you're being programmed by the algorithm,

1212
01:30:02,313 --> 01:30:08,053
which is fantastic. So I think as far as social media goes, if you're going to use it,

1213
01:30:08,233 --> 01:30:11,553
that should be number one on your list. And I would recommend to most people making it your

1214
01:30:11,553 --> 01:30:15,853
only thing on your list, especially if you don't have anything to promote. That's the best way to

1215
01:30:15,853 --> 01:30:20,153
hang out with people. But I would say taking the next step, just get off social media altogether.

1216
01:30:20,153 --> 01:30:25,313
I'm not convinced that it's helpful in general for most people.

1217
01:30:25,513 --> 01:30:30,233
And like, get back out to real life, touch grass, go meet people, go have real life conversations.

1218
01:30:30,353 --> 01:30:36,093
Like the only time I ever meet psychopathic people, like for real, personalities are online, even on Nostra.

1219
01:30:36,613 --> 01:30:41,013
Like just crazy, angry, weird people, you know?

1220
01:30:41,113 --> 01:30:44,093
And I'm like, you don't say the things you do in normal life.

1221
01:30:44,093 --> 01:30:50,173
Like even if you disagree with someone, you still smile and you still try to, you know, you shake their hand and you still like try to be cordial.

1222
01:30:50,293 --> 01:30:52,453
Like there just isn't any of that on social media.

1223
01:30:52,633 --> 01:30:56,113
And that's just not healthy for people, I don't think.

1224
01:30:56,453 --> 01:30:59,713
The problem is because on social media, you can't get punched in the face.

1225
01:30:59,873 --> 01:31:05,053
Like that's the big reason why people will not say like will not say shit in person.

1226
01:31:05,153 --> 01:31:12,133
It's because like, well, if I say this, then there's a, you know, X percent chance I'm getting punched right in the face.

1227
01:31:12,133 --> 01:31:30,973
And most people don't want to get punched in the face. It's generally something that humans try to avoid. But like on social media, there is no physical threat of repercussion. I mean, unless you like, you know, you swat somebody or whatever, but like, then you probably end up in jail too. So like, you know, that's a different story. But I digress.

1228
01:31:30,973 --> 01:31:38,693
uh dr jeff i do want to ask you know i i i rarely if ever ask anyone for bitcoin price predictions

1229
01:31:38,693 --> 01:31:45,153
but because multiple people on noster asked about it with reference to your previous predictions i i

1230
01:31:45,153 --> 01:31:49,673
still don't want to ask you for a specific one nor will i hold you to an actual date i'm just curious

1231
01:31:49,673 --> 01:31:56,773
like what ballpark are you in for the short term and then i'm more curious what's your long term

1232
01:31:56,773 --> 01:32:13,613
So short term, let's say, in the next year, but then long term, do you agree with Sailor's 21-year forecast of the bear case of $3 million, base case of $13 million, bull case of $49 million?

1233
01:32:14,153 --> 01:32:17,193
Where do you fall on that short term and long term scale?

1234
01:32:17,193 --> 01:32:28,333
Yeah. So my favorite prediction is I think that by 2035, you'll be able to get a good New York strip steak for 2,500 sats per pound.

1235
01:32:30,493 --> 01:32:31,013
Okay.

1236
01:32:31,613 --> 01:32:40,053
That's my main prediction. People usually want price predictions, but I think that you will actually be able to buy steak with sats at a regular store.

1237
01:32:40,053 --> 01:32:43,893
And I think it'll be about 20, which today would be about three bucks per pound.

1238
01:32:44,253 --> 01:32:47,293
But I think that that's, that's where I think it's going.

1239
01:32:47,413 --> 01:32:48,273
So that that's good.

1240
01:32:48,313 --> 01:32:50,413
So life will get cheaper and quality will improve.

1241
01:32:51,613 --> 01:32:55,973
I want to publicly say that I'm going to be wrong about the clickbait that I have all

1242
01:32:55,973 --> 01:32:56,273
over it.

1243
01:32:56,273 --> 01:33:03,013
Like every single popular show I do says, Dr. Ross says $475,000 Bitcoin.

1244
01:33:03,493 --> 01:33:04,993
And I'm like, I won't do that to you.

1245
01:33:05,113 --> 01:33:07,673
Just so you know, Danny Knowles, Danny Knowles.

1246
01:33:08,373 --> 01:33:09,113
Yeah, Danny.

1247
01:33:09,113 --> 01:33:09,973
I'm just kidding, Danny.

1248
01:33:10,053 --> 01:33:18,213
turkey. So, and why did we not get this? So I will be wrong. I'm going to claim that I was wrong.

1249
01:33:18,453 --> 01:33:22,153
I don't think there's any chance we'll get that. It's like a 1% chance at this point.

1250
01:33:22,633 --> 01:33:29,453
If the economy just rips from here, starting like today here in August, mid-August, it just rips

1251
01:33:29,453 --> 01:33:36,233
into September, October. Bitcoin could possibly rip that high, but that's almost impossible now

1252
01:33:36,233 --> 01:33:41,113
at this point. The reason why this isn't happening is because this economy has been stuck and coming

1253
01:33:41,113 --> 01:33:45,633
and we this is getting a little long, so I won't keep going. But we've been stuck in this weird

1254
01:33:45,633 --> 01:33:50,573
sideways economy since basically 2022 services have been doing okay, manufacturing has been in

1255
01:33:50,573 --> 01:33:57,573
contraction. If they start to rip into the first half of 2026, Bitcoin could go parabolic again,

1256
01:33:57,573 --> 01:34:03,873
we could see another huge spike higher. At that point, it could get to these levels I was talking

1257
01:34:03,873 --> 01:34:08,893
about before. We could be like in the half a million range, possibly. But if we do that,

1258
01:34:09,073 --> 01:34:13,893
and this is like, everybody gets all excited about how high could it go. I always at that point as a

1259
01:34:13,893 --> 01:34:18,273
fund manager, like it could go, it could fall so far so fast. You guys have to be so careful.

1260
01:34:18,693 --> 01:34:23,033
And so I always tell people, please don't take on debt during a bull market. Like that's when

1261
01:34:23,033 --> 01:34:26,513
people start levering up and levering up. And they're like, oh my gosh, I just doubled my money

1262
01:34:26,513 --> 01:34:30,953
in like a week. Like I got to go 10X now, you know, and they lever up. And those are the people

1263
01:34:30,953 --> 01:34:32,973
that just ruin their lives financially.

1264
01:34:33,613 --> 01:34:35,533
Like bull markets are for paying off debt.

1265
01:34:35,693 --> 01:34:37,273
If you have debt, I'm like begging you

1266
01:34:37,273 --> 01:34:39,413
as a guy who understands how money works,

1267
01:34:39,713 --> 01:34:41,413
please pay off your debt in a bull market.

1268
01:34:41,753 --> 01:34:43,293
Don't take on new debt in a bull market.

1269
01:34:43,893 --> 01:34:45,813
Bear markets are for taking on new debt.

1270
01:34:46,253 --> 01:34:48,293
And we're not in a bear market right now.

1271
01:34:48,613 --> 01:34:52,013
So I think sailor, so, and then your final question,

1272
01:34:52,153 --> 01:34:53,613
sailor's longer term projection.

1273
01:34:53,613 --> 01:34:55,293
So by like the year 2045,

1274
01:34:56,293 --> 01:34:58,413
I think Bitcoin at that point will probably be

1275
01:34:58,413 --> 01:35:06,793
like in the 10 million range ish, which would be what, like a set of thousand X from here. So no,

1276
01:35:06,933 --> 01:35:13,813
a hundred. So, so we go, we're at a hundred right now. I think we get to like a million X in about

1277
01:35:13,813 --> 01:35:21,593
10 years and about 10 million X, 10 million. So yeah, a hundred X from here in about 20 years.

1278
01:35:21,693 --> 01:35:26,833
That's kind of my, my vibe. And I think that it's going to do a lot of this along the way,

1279
01:35:26,833 --> 01:35:29,073
But I think for people who are just stacking, that's what I tell people.

1280
01:35:29,073 --> 01:35:30,933
They're like, should I buy now or should I wait for a dip?

1281
01:35:30,933 --> 01:35:36,233
I'm like, I think it's going to be easily a million dollars in 2035 and probably 10

1282
01:35:36,233 --> 01:35:37,553
million in 2045.

1283
01:35:37,553 --> 01:35:42,993
Like, do you think you'll care if you bought it at 115 or 112 or 108 or 150?

1284
01:35:43,213 --> 01:35:45,053
Like just, just stack sats, man.

1285
01:35:45,113 --> 01:35:49,313
Like quit thinking about it coming full circle and probably a good ending to this.

1286
01:35:49,573 --> 01:35:51,653
Just stack sats and go about your life.

1287
01:35:51,733 --> 01:35:56,813
Go hug your wife, go, you know, have kids, enjoy your family and go do something productive.

1288
01:35:56,833 --> 01:36:00,973
create value for people and, uh, and the price will take care of itself over the long run.

1289
01:36:02,513 --> 01:36:07,393
That, that is a heck of a note to end on Dr. Jeff. Uh, thank you so much for your time. I know you

1290
01:36:07,393 --> 01:36:10,093
don't, you said you don't have anything you're, you're promoting. Do you want to send people

1291
01:36:10,093 --> 01:36:15,253
anywhere? I'll link your Noster in the, in the show notes, but, uh, yeah, you got, you got nothing,

1292
01:36:15,313 --> 01:36:20,493
you got nothing to sell. I got nothing. Yeah. I just am some dude now. Uh, so yeah, they should,

1293
01:36:20,493 --> 01:36:23,953
they should all follow you for sure. And buy any products that you sell.

1294
01:36:23,953 --> 01:36:31,373
so far just uh you know the only thing i'm selling is a good time exactly yeah they should

1295
01:36:31,373 --> 01:36:36,033
subscribe to your station that's what people should do there we go and and check and check

1296
01:36:36,033 --> 01:36:40,993
out noster because if you're listening to this uh on uh anywhere else but noster you didn't get

1297
01:36:40,993 --> 01:36:46,373
to see it live uh and this was live for noster only so thank you to all the people who joined

1298
01:36:46,373 --> 01:36:51,373
on noster and who zapped some sats because how cool you're able to send magic internet money to

1299
01:36:51,373 --> 01:36:56,573
a podcaster you've never met who is not yet an AI. Like what a time to be alive, you know?

1300
01:36:57,473 --> 01:36:58,393
Yes, I love it.

1301
01:36:59,473 --> 01:37:01,973
All right. Well, hey, thanks so much. I appreciate your time.

1302
01:37:02,393 --> 01:37:03,593
Thanks, Walker. Thanks for having me on.

1303
01:37:10,473 --> 01:37:15,293
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast.

1304
01:37:15,953 --> 01:37:19,893
Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening

1305
01:37:19,893 --> 01:37:24,213
and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.

1306
01:37:24,213 --> 01:37:27,613
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash walker

1307
01:37:27,613 --> 01:37:30,893
and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin.

1308
01:37:31,493 --> 01:37:34,753
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America

1309
01:37:34,753 --> 01:37:39,613
and find this podcast on X and Instagram at titcoinpodcast.

1310
01:37:39,773 --> 01:37:42,293
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links.

1311
01:37:42,413 --> 01:37:47,093
Head to substack.com slash at walkeramerica to get episodes emailed to you

1312
01:37:47,093 --> 01:37:50,913
and head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else.

1313
01:37:51,453 --> 01:37:55,013
Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant.

1314
01:37:55,513 --> 01:38:00,353
So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to The Bitcoin Podcast.

1315
01:38:01,233 --> 01:38:03,653
Until next time, stay free.