1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,860
This could definitely turn into massive chaos, you know, if the wrong people have such an enormous

2
00:00:04,860 --> 00:00:10,820
amount of wealth. They can wreak havoc. Privacy is such a powerful tool towards freedom. We can

3
00:00:10,820 --> 00:00:16,400
perfectly hide ourselves in such that no middleman can actually find us and pinpoint where we are.

4
00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,180
With the genius of cryptography, we have it such that nobody can steal the money.

5
00:00:20,740 --> 00:00:26,320
And it's incredible. Imagine on the battlefield there is one guy in a full metal plate armor,

6
00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,580
and the other guys only have like wooden clubs.

7
00:00:28,820 --> 00:00:30,380
They simply have no chance, right?

8
00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:32,740
Given this asymmetric distribution of technology.

9
00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:37,400
We need a decentralized system for timestamping and money, right?

10
00:00:37,480 --> 00:00:38,760
That's where Bitcoin comes in.

11
00:00:38,940 --> 00:00:39,660
It's just the beginning.

12
00:00:39,820 --> 00:00:42,780
Like, that's a tiny, tiny, small protocol.

13
00:00:42,900 --> 00:00:44,140
We can do so much more with it.

14
00:00:44,260 --> 00:00:48,160
I hope funding for Freedom Tech will go up in the future rather than go down.

15
00:00:48,740 --> 00:00:51,820
And if that is the case, then spicy times ahead.

16
00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:01,240
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.

17
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,740
My name is Walker, and this is the Bitcoin Podcast.

18
00:01:04,260 --> 00:01:07,140
Bitcoin continues to make new blocks every 10 minutes,

19
00:01:07,220 --> 00:01:09,800
and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.

20
00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:13,560
If you are listening to this right now, remember, you're still early.

21
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,760
This episode is brought to you by Blockware.

22
00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,800
What if you could lower your tax bill and stack Bitcoin at the same time?

23
00:01:19,900 --> 00:01:21,400
Well, with Blockware, you can.

24
00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:26,500
New U.S. tax rules let miners write off 100% of their mining hardware in a single year.

25
00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,820
So, earn Bitcoin daily while saving big come tax season.

26
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,980
Get started at mining.blockwarsolutions.com slash titcoin.

27
00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:39,660
Use the code titcoin to get $100 off your first miner when using the Blockware marketplace.

28
00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:43,720
This is not tax advice, so go speak to the team at Blockware to learn more.

29
00:01:44,100 --> 00:01:47,800
That's mining.blockwarsolutions.com slash titcoin.

30
00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:55,920
Head to the show notes for links to find the show on centralized social media platforms and on Noster, or just go directly to BitcoinPodcast.net, you'll find it all there.

31
00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,620
And kind reminder that you can support this show by becoming a paid subscriber on Fountain.

32
00:02:00,820 --> 00:02:04,120
Or don't, Bitcoin doesn't care, but I sure do appreciate it.

33
00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,320
Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk.

34
00:02:14,820 --> 00:02:15,980
Max, good to see you, man.

35
00:02:16,260 --> 00:02:17,440
It's good to see you too, Walker.

36
00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,200
It's been a while since the last show.

37
00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:21,240
And the last one was quite fun.

38
00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:22,980
It was quite fun.

39
00:02:23,380 --> 00:02:26,600
You know, we've had non-podcast conversations since then,

40
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:31,660
meaning conversations in the real meat space in multiple locations.

41
00:02:32,180 --> 00:02:33,900
They probably should have been podcasts, really.

42
00:02:33,980 --> 00:02:35,020
Everything should be a podcast.

43
00:02:35,020 --> 00:02:38,960
But, you know, sometimes you just don't have that recording equipment on you.

44
00:02:39,060 --> 00:02:41,720
Although I guess with our phones, is there an excuse?

45
00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:42,360
I don't know.

46
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:44,100
They are listening.

47
00:02:44,220 --> 00:02:45,240
We might as well, you know.

48
00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:54,220
i really think that the long-term evolution of of bitcoin conferences is going to be the extremes

49
00:02:54,220 --> 00:03:00,080
right either there is no phones no recording you don't even mention who's there to anyone ever

50
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:07,340
right unlike a harsh core a hardcore elimination of the community if you do right then the other

51
00:03:07,340 --> 00:03:13,560
extreme is just big brother style microphones everywhere and we have this like two-day event

52
00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:19,760
and out of this we get like three years worth of podcasts so honestly honestly i kind of like those

53
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,120
two extremes like the one what's the uh what's the style of guys is it chatham house rules where

54
00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:30,400
it's like no no cameras no no video recording no audio recording there may be written transcripts

55
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:35,100
or not even written like written notes but not full transcripts shared afterwards i've been to

56
00:03:35,100 --> 00:03:39,700
one conference like that attribute anything that was said to a specific person right right

57
00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:47,140
these more private settings really foster a a more intimate way to to think and to express yourself

58
00:03:47,140 --> 00:03:51,800
on on topics that you're not so sharp about yet if you're constantly worried about being recorded

59
00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:57,440
and and that anything you say will be used against you that that means you will self-censor to a large

60
00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:04,440
extent well it's it's true i mean it gets back to the like the core idea of privacy and how it is

61
00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:11,180
intertwined with free speech in many ways, because it's like, you really like, there's the one thing

62
00:04:11,180 --> 00:04:17,060
about speaking freely publicly, right? And being able to do that and having that speech be protected

63
00:04:17,060 --> 00:04:24,320
by law. There's another thing to being able to speak completely privately as freely as you want,

64
00:04:24,380 --> 00:04:29,740
without fear of being overheard, of being surveilled, of being recorded without your

65
00:04:29,740 --> 00:04:36,800
knowledge and you kind of need that ability. Like you need both, you need both or you don't have

66
00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:42,800
actual free speech. I think like if big brother is always watching, always listening, even if you

67
00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:48,000
have free speech in the public, uh, you know, the public arena, if you don't have that in the private,

68
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:53,700
you know, the private side of your life, because someone's always listening, it's like, are you ever

69
00:04:53,700 --> 00:05:01,340
truly speaking freely. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I started out as a freedom maximalist,

70
00:05:01,340 --> 00:05:06,280
I think. And then slowly that morphed into becoming a privacy maximalist. And that is

71
00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:12,000
because privacy is such a powerful tool towards freedom. And if we define freedom as the absence

72
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:20,220
of coercion, the absence of violence, and privacy as the ability to not reveal yourself to an

73
00:05:20,220 --> 00:05:25,560
attacker and then then obviously privacy is something that cuts an attack at its earliest

74
00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:31,420
possible point and therefore increases the cost of applying violence or in other words removing

75
00:05:31,420 --> 00:05:37,860
your freedoms and and so mastering these tools of privacy will will eventually result in in a much

76
00:05:37,860 --> 00:05:43,860
freer world for for those who dare to use those tools it it's so true and it's one of the things

77
00:05:43,860 --> 00:05:50,020
they gave me uh you were in lugano obviously and i'm not sure if you you were up early enough to

78
00:05:50,020 --> 00:05:54,360
catch my opening remarks in the second day, but it was just me up there and they gave me wisely or

79
00:05:54,360 --> 00:06:00,140
unwisely, gave me the stage for like a full 10 minutes just to open up the conference. And usually

80
00:06:00,140 --> 00:06:04,240
it's as people are trickling in and stuff, right? And you're trying to make sure you get butts in

81
00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:11,220
seats before the big heavy hitters come on. And I decided I was just going to make the whole thing

82
00:06:11,220 --> 00:06:18,240
about privacy and the basically the subversion of the state through the reclamation of our

83
00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:23,740
freedoms, right? The idea that the state doesn't give you any freedoms. They can only take them

84
00:06:23,740 --> 00:06:28,040
away. You have to take those freedoms for yourself. And we have the tools to do that.

85
00:06:28,460 --> 00:06:33,320
That's what the cypherpunks were so passionate about, are still so passionate about, is creating

86
00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:39,080
those tools that make it possible to take the liberties that you want, take the liberties that

87
00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:46,480
you need, take your freedom for yourself versus needing to be reliant on a benevolent state,

88
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:51,680
which is rarely the case to somehow give you those rights. Like they,

89
00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,340
ironically, I didn't realize this, but I,

90
00:06:55,340 --> 00:06:56,840
because I didn't check the schedule at first,

91
00:06:56,900 --> 00:06:58,940
but then I checked the schedule and I was like, Oh, right after me.

92
00:06:59,280 --> 00:07:01,960
And basically I'm just saying like, you should resist the state. You know,

93
00:07:01,980 --> 00:07:03,940
you don't necessarily need to not saying you should,

94
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,020
but you don't need to pay taxes on everything. If the state doesn't know,

95
00:07:07,060 --> 00:07:10,700
like not saying you should, but you know, and then like right up next is like a,

96
00:07:10,700 --> 00:07:14,240
you know, Bitcoin and politics panel. And, and it was just like, well,

97
00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,620
that's a, that's a nice little juxtaposition. Uh, so, you know, but it is, it is such an important

98
00:07:19,620 --> 00:07:26,680
thing. I think people, even those who are aware of the tools that are out there often think,

99
00:07:26,780 --> 00:07:32,340
well, I don't really need to use those right now because like, I don't really have anything

100
00:07:32,340 --> 00:07:37,440
to hide. Like we, it's so easy to fall into that trap of like, why do you need privacy?

101
00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,600
If you have nothing to hide, but for yourself, like, Oh, I don't need to be that careful because

102
00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:46,640
I'm not saying anything that bad or you know what I mean like it's so easy to fall into that trap

103
00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,880
but I think we have to like really remain vigilant on that because it does matter and if we don't

104
00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:57,040
use the tools now when they're not desperately needed we may not be able to use them when we

105
00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:03,820
really do need to use them yeah exactly and and especially build them right like peace time is

106
00:08:03,820 --> 00:08:08,840
for building so to say and it's not really that we're quite peaceful times nowadays right it would

107
00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:14,080
be nice but so this just shows that it's it's really high time to to build these tools and then

108
00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:19,100
to spread them widely and and to use them ultimately and to help people protect themselves

109
00:08:19,100 --> 00:08:25,360
that's that's extremely critical because you know if if there is just mass tyranny everywhere

110
00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:30,880
nothing gets produced anymore life turns to shit very very very quickly if we if we start to focus

111
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:36,040
on destroying stuff rather than building stuff it doesn't take long to completely devour what

112
00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:37,340
we've built across decades before.

113
00:08:38,060 --> 00:08:42,100
And then hopefully in such a situation,

114
00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,200
there is an alternative gathering of individuals

115
00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,040
to build a more sustainable and free parallel economy.

116
00:08:51,100 --> 00:08:52,700
And that's critical, you know,

117
00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,660
because otherwise we don't eat and that sucks.

118
00:08:56,660 --> 00:09:01,060
And so we need to find ways now to already bootstrap

119
00:09:01,060 --> 00:09:07,180
these communities of production in as many places as is possible,

120
00:09:07,980 --> 00:09:13,660
companies and products that rely and are built on sound monetary principles

121
00:09:13,660 --> 00:09:17,360
and good ethics and good protocol designs, etc.

122
00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,840
And then we hopefully have a chance, right,

123
00:09:20,900 --> 00:09:24,620
of when this fiat empire continues to collapse,

124
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,680
that there is some glimmer of hope somewhere to go to.

125
00:09:31,060 --> 00:09:44,240
It's interesting. I think that people, maybe even a lot of Bitcoiners haven't internalized the fact that that parallel system is, that will eventually be the new system.

126
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:54,460
I don't really think that the parallel system that is being built right now that many of us are already participating in the future, being here already but not evenly distributed yet,

127
00:09:54,460 --> 00:10:01,480
I do not think that that gets subsumed by the existing fiat system. Like the existing fiat

128
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:08,140
system is, is, is too broken. It doesn't, it does not align with this new parallel system,

129
00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,360
right? The values, the incentives are not the same. And so really it's about like,

130
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,740
it's not about, I don't think those systems eventually merging. It's about the one system

131
00:10:16,740 --> 00:10:21,960
just completely collapsing and the other being strong enough, resilient enough, widespread enough

132
00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,220
where that just becomes the new system.

133
00:10:24,340 --> 00:10:25,640
I don't know what your thoughts are on that.

134
00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:27,120
Maybe I'm off base, but I just,

135
00:10:27,260 --> 00:10:29,880
I don't see these systems ultimately merging

136
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:31,580
because I think the values,

137
00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,860
the incentive structures are just too misaligned.

138
00:10:34,260 --> 00:10:36,220
What if you could lower your tax bill

139
00:10:36,220 --> 00:10:38,240
and stack Bitcoin at the same time?

140
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,220
Well, by mining Bitcoin with blockware, you can.

141
00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,220
New tax guidelines from the big, beautiful bill

142
00:10:44,220 --> 00:10:47,680
allow American miners to write off 100% of the cost

143
00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:50,400
of their mining hardware in a single tax year.

144
00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,180
That is right, a 100% write-off.

145
00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:56,600
So if you have $100,000 in capital gains or income,

146
00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:01,280
you can purchase $100,000 worth of miners and offset it entirely.

147
00:11:01,540 --> 00:11:06,260
Blockware's mining as a service enables you to start mining right now without lifting a finger.

148
00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:11,080
Blockware handles everything from securing the miners to sourcing low-cost power

149
00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:12,840
to configuring the mining pool.

150
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:13,920
They do it all.

151
00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:20,460
You get to stack Bitcoin at a discount every single day while also saving big come tax season.

152
00:11:20,780 --> 00:11:27,440
Get started today by going to mining.blockwaresolutions.com slash titcoin.

153
00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:33,320
Again, that's mining.blockwaresolutions.com slash titcoin.

154
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:39,340
Use the code titcoin to get $100 off your first miner when using the Blockware Marketplace.

155
00:11:39,820 --> 00:11:41,760
Of course, none of this is tax advice from me.

156
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,240
Go speak with the team at Blockware to learn more.

157
00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:49,440
One more time, that is mining.blockwaresolutions.com slash titcoin.

158
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,160
Wish you could access cash without selling your Bitcoin?

159
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,040
Ledin makes that possible.

160
00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,240
The global leader in Bitcoin-backed lending,

161
00:11:57,660 --> 00:12:01,660
Ledin has issued over $10 billion in loans since 2018

162
00:12:01,660 --> 00:12:05,320
and has a perfect record of protecting client assets.

163
00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:07,420
Why is a Ledin loan different?

164
00:12:07,420 --> 00:12:11,900
Well, with custodied loans, collateral is not lent out to generate interest.

165
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,380
No credit checks, no monthly payments.

166
00:12:14,780 --> 00:12:18,860
Apply in minutes and repay whenever you want with zero penalties.

167
00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:25,740
And proof of reserves reports verified by a top accounting firm are published every six months.

168
00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:32,380
Ledin gives Bitcoin holders a secure, transparent way to unlock liquidity without selling.

169
00:12:32,380 --> 00:12:37,000
Learn more at ledin.io slash walker.

170
00:12:37,420 --> 00:12:42,960
That's L-E-D-N dot I-O forward slash Walker.

171
00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,940
It's really hard to go for complete destructions.

172
00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:49,680
Thankfully, humans are hard to kill.

173
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,160
And we somehow always find a way to continue to survive and thrive.

174
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:56,060
And that's a good thing.

175
00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:02,260
So it's more about what can we preserve and still elevate in some positions.

176
00:13:02,260 --> 00:13:11,520
And the good thing is basically anywhere you go, you will find ways to still live freely despite a large extent of authoritarianism.

177
00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,580
Even in extreme places like North Korea or even America, right?

178
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:22,660
There are still pockets of freedom where small free interactions take place, right?

179
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,300
And of course, there are far fewer in between compared to more free and liberal societies.

180
00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:30,160
but still they are possible and they are there,

181
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,880
especially with new technologies applied,

182
00:13:33,380 --> 00:13:35,580
those that are currently not evenly distributed yet.

183
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,180
These become more possible.

184
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:45,340
And nevertheless, we're currently in a much freer state than we could be.

185
00:13:45,500 --> 00:13:46,740
It could be a lot worse.

186
00:13:47,420 --> 00:14:04,571
And so that something to not take for granted and to leverage in the fact that we have more time to build and deploy at scale these technologies What do you think is the freest example of a nation state or of a territory that we have today

187
00:14:04,671 --> 00:14:08,751
Maybe even classifying it by the nation state is not the right move there.

188
00:14:09,411 --> 00:14:16,911
But like where would you say has the greatest potential for long-term freedom?

189
00:14:16,911 --> 00:14:21,951
that would be most aligned with this parallel system that is actively being built?

190
00:14:23,451 --> 00:14:26,371
Maybe the surprising answer might be the oceans.

191
00:14:27,511 --> 00:14:31,351
On the high seas has been anarchy for centuries.

192
00:14:32,231 --> 00:14:36,051
There is no single global ruler of the high seas.

193
00:14:36,931 --> 00:14:41,111
And if you're a captain of a ship, you have a substantial amount of real autonomy.

194
00:14:41,111 --> 00:14:47,851
and you know cruise ships for example are dictator ships on a boat ultimately.

195
00:14:48,711 --> 00:14:50,171
A dictator ship, pun intended.

196
00:14:50,831 --> 00:14:52,131
Literally, yeah.

197
00:14:53,311 --> 00:14:57,211
By the way a lot of our legal concepts come from maritime law.

198
00:14:57,351 --> 00:14:59,491
You know citizenship is another example.

199
00:15:00,531 --> 00:15:09,151
So yeah the point at where a cruise ship loses its sovereignty is when it goes to port.

200
00:15:09,151 --> 00:15:13,631
then it has to become accustomed in the national waters

201
00:15:13,631 --> 00:15:15,631
and the port facility specifically

202
00:15:15,631 --> 00:15:18,631
and has to sign a bunch of contracts to be allowed to get in there

203
00:15:18,631 --> 00:15:25,411
but now imagine a cruise ship that never has to go back to a port

204
00:15:25,411 --> 00:15:29,731
what if the cruise ship simply stays out in the high seas non-stop

205
00:15:29,731 --> 00:15:34,591
and smaller vessels come and go and dock and bring supplies and people and whatnot

206
00:15:34,591 --> 00:15:41,991
not. But all of a sudden, there you have an actual possibility of legal anarchy in the

207
00:15:41,991 --> 00:15:47,971
currently defined existing set of rules. So the Seasteading Institute is really fascinating to

208
00:15:47,971 --> 00:15:52,711
follow. And they've made phenomenal progress over the last couple of years. There's ultimately,

209
00:15:53,911 --> 00:16:00,931
in order to make this long term sustainable on a holistic, like pragmatic front,

210
00:16:00,931 --> 00:16:02,891
we ultimately need three things.

211
00:16:03,391 --> 00:16:06,351
We need to have a flag to put on the vessel

212
00:16:06,351 --> 00:16:10,071
because that means that you kind of have

213
00:16:10,071 --> 00:16:13,911
like an anchoring to a certain nationality

214
00:16:13,911 --> 00:16:15,791
and that gives you, in the current legal context,

215
00:16:15,951 --> 00:16:16,691
a bunch of protections.

216
00:16:17,651 --> 00:16:21,231
Second is that you need to have insurance

217
00:16:21,231 --> 00:16:24,991
because if you cannot insure a boat,

218
00:16:25,131 --> 00:16:26,651
the cost of it is way too high.

219
00:16:27,131 --> 00:16:28,731
So insurance is incredibly useful

220
00:16:28,731 --> 00:16:31,131
for cost-efficient risk reallocation.

221
00:16:32,191 --> 00:16:35,211
But in order to get insurance, you need the third thing,

222
00:16:35,311 --> 00:16:37,491
which is a classification of this type of vessel.

223
00:16:38,811 --> 00:16:41,931
Because a fisher boat is different from a cruise ship,

224
00:16:42,331 --> 00:16:46,471
it's different from an oil drilling rig in the high seas.

225
00:16:46,571 --> 00:16:48,331
These are all different seagoing vessels

226
00:16:48,331 --> 00:16:49,951
that have a different type of classification.

227
00:16:50,851 --> 00:16:53,911
And we need now, in order to get such a classification,

228
00:16:55,051 --> 00:16:57,511
you basically need to have a body of engineers

229
00:16:57,511 --> 00:17:00,491
defining exactly what this type of vessel is.

230
00:17:00,631 --> 00:17:03,791
In the realm of a seastead, it would be an ocean-going vessel

231
00:17:03,791 --> 00:17:05,351
that does not have a motor.

232
00:17:05,671 --> 00:17:06,811
It's not self-propelling.

233
00:17:07,191 --> 00:17:09,291
It needs to be tugged, but it can float

234
00:17:09,291 --> 00:17:12,551
and can be anchored for locational stability.

235
00:17:13,551 --> 00:17:19,291
So with this then, yeah, we can basically get the insurances,

236
00:17:19,571 --> 00:17:20,811
get the flagging agency.

237
00:17:20,811 --> 00:17:23,891
The cool thing is the flagging agencies are private companies, ultimately.

238
00:17:24,411 --> 00:17:25,631
And there's a huge competition.

239
00:17:25,631 --> 00:17:36,891
Every Caribbean island, every country with an ocean, and even some that don't have oceans, have these flagging agencies, and they're very happy to compete for business.

240
00:17:37,451 --> 00:17:39,111
So that problem is already solved.

241
00:17:39,211 --> 00:17:46,111
And right now what the Seasteading Institute is solving is that panel of engineers defining the classification of the Seastead.

242
00:17:46,611 --> 00:17:48,951
And once that is done, insurance shouldn't be that hard.

243
00:17:49,711 --> 00:17:53,651
And yeah, there's multiple companies building these Seasteads already now.

244
00:17:53,711 --> 00:17:55,012
You can buy them for not even that much.

245
00:17:55,012 --> 00:17:58,752
I think it's like $150,000, $200,000 for the small edition.

246
00:17:59,231 --> 00:18:02,691
You know, the luxurious editions go into the millions, of course, but they don't have to be.

247
00:18:03,671 --> 00:18:07,731
Okay, this is a rabbit hole that I clearly need to go deeper down here.

248
00:18:07,871 --> 00:18:14,752
Okay, so, I mean, how feasible is it to be able to do that on a long-term basis?

249
00:18:14,971 --> 00:18:22,571
Like, I mean, I guess you need to have, obviously, either, you know, I guess some sort of contact with the shore in the sense that you need to provision yourselves.

250
00:18:22,811 --> 00:18:24,091
Assuming it's not self-sustaining.

251
00:18:24,091 --> 00:18:27,792
I don't know how many, like, uh, you can obviously grow things like, you know, you'll have plenty of

252
00:18:27,792 --> 00:18:32,772
good sunshine out of the open sea. Right. Um, you know, uh, fresh water is a difficult one. So I

253
00:18:32,772 --> 00:18:36,391
don't know if they have like desalination, uh, rigs on board and things like that, but like,

254
00:18:36,971 --> 00:18:41,411
you know, how, how sustainable is that from like a long-term perspective of like, if you want to

255
00:18:41,411 --> 00:18:46,971
completely stay out of any jurisdiction and like, can you, can you be, I mean, can these actually

256
00:18:46,971 --> 00:18:51,811
be classified as their own states, like their own, their own nations eventually? I know there

257
00:18:51,811 --> 00:18:58,411
were some what's the uh you'll know this the the one so a guy did this right like he built out his

258
00:18:58,411 --> 00:19:03,631
own i think it was on an old oil rig and he built out like his own nation essentially like he was

259
00:19:03,631 --> 00:19:08,311
the citizen of his own nation you do you remember you know what i'm talking about yeah uh there have

260
00:19:08,311 --> 00:19:16,151
been a couple pioneer seastiders many of them killed or or hunted uh so unfortunately that well

261
00:19:16,151 --> 00:19:20,231
that's always kind of in the early days you know the early big owners are also all tortured kidnapped

262
00:19:20,231 --> 00:19:21,211
and in jail nowadays.

263
00:19:21,891 --> 00:19:23,391
So we have that in common.

264
00:19:26,012 --> 00:19:27,731
But yeah, this is absolutely possible.

265
00:19:28,252 --> 00:19:29,331
In terms of self-sufficiency,

266
00:19:30,131 --> 00:19:32,292
you need electricity to produce anything, right?

267
00:19:32,351 --> 00:19:35,351
But for that, solar and battery, totally fine.

268
00:19:35,532 --> 00:19:37,731
Weight is not that much of an issue, actually.

269
00:19:38,272 --> 00:19:40,431
More weight is better for seagoing vessels.

270
00:19:40,671 --> 00:19:41,731
They're kind of more stable.

271
00:19:42,431 --> 00:19:44,731
So the weight of batteries is totally fine.

272
00:19:45,871 --> 00:19:49,992
Then you can run a desalumination plant

273
00:19:49,992 --> 00:19:54,032
and there are some prototypes that have them purely running off the solar

274
00:19:54,032 --> 00:19:56,551
and they produce enough water for the family.

275
00:19:56,731 --> 00:19:58,111
So that's fine.

276
00:19:59,032 --> 00:20:00,711
Food, I mean, you can fish.

277
00:20:01,411 --> 00:20:04,291
Actually, when you put these vessels into the ocean,

278
00:20:04,752 --> 00:20:09,931
you can design them in such a way that it builds like this layer of mineral crust or something,

279
00:20:10,311 --> 00:20:12,711
which basically turns your boat into a coral reef.

280
00:20:13,431 --> 00:20:16,071
And if you have a boat that needs to go fast through the water,

281
00:20:16,471 --> 00:20:17,931
you want to design to prevent that

282
00:20:17,931 --> 00:20:20,871
because that creates more surface area, more drag, etc.

283
00:20:21,512 --> 00:20:22,992
But if you're stationary, you don't care.

284
00:20:23,411 --> 00:20:24,651
In fact, it actually benefits you

285
00:20:24,651 --> 00:20:26,512
because it's a protection against corrosion.

286
00:20:26,791 --> 00:20:29,891
So your steel in the vessel doesn't corrode away.

287
00:20:30,551 --> 00:20:33,731
And then with this, you just get a coral reef

288
00:20:33,731 --> 00:20:37,551
and there will be an insane amount of fish around your habitat.

289
00:20:37,671 --> 00:20:39,992
So you just pick one up and there's food.

290
00:20:40,791 --> 00:20:42,471
Not as good as a cow, yes.

291
00:20:44,512 --> 00:20:45,631
But I don't know.

292
00:20:45,631 --> 00:20:52,252
maybe you can get like a big shark or something that might be equivalent to our meat.

293
00:20:52,911 --> 00:20:56,492
Or, you know, you could probably have a goat, depending on the size of this,

294
00:20:56,532 --> 00:20:58,231
you could probably have a goat on board, you know,

295
00:20:58,311 --> 00:21:01,091
if you wanted to at least produce some dairy products.

296
00:21:01,471 --> 00:21:04,992
If you're into that, plenty of good cheese and goat's milk can come out of that.

297
00:21:05,731 --> 00:21:09,512
Yeah, like the president of the Seasteading Institute, his wife,

298
00:21:09,792 --> 00:21:12,831
is not yet convinced about living on a boat in the middle of nowhere.

299
00:21:12,831 --> 00:21:22,391
and so her criteria for i will go if this happens is if i can walk my dog in grass out on the seastead

300
00:21:22,391 --> 00:21:28,512
then yes i will go but we can absolutely put soil in a seastead and and you know grow grass on it

301
00:21:28,512 --> 00:21:34,091
should totally be fine we can connect multiple of these parts together to form quite large structures

302
00:21:34,091 --> 00:21:42,611
and and definitely you know have have larger areas um yeah should be fine it reminds me

303
00:21:42,611 --> 00:21:49,012
of uh you know snow crash obviously uh the the giant you know floating uh floating city that they

304
00:21:49,012 --> 00:21:53,891
they had there just kept you know tying on more and more and more vessels to it essentially uh

305
00:21:53,891 --> 00:21:59,811
slightly you know less perhaps less cultish uh behavior and for anyone that hasn't read snow

306
00:21:59,811 --> 00:22:05,931
crash you absolutely should because it's a uh a brilliant it's a yeah it's like that's where

307
00:22:05,931 --> 00:22:09,711
metaverse came from you know like that's where so much so many things came from and the idea of like

308
00:22:09,711 --> 00:22:15,371
the the future uh techno futuristic you know kind of uh corporate state i think is such a

309
00:22:15,371 --> 00:22:20,052
fascinating one it's i think that's basically what bellagis took his network state from like

310
00:22:20,052 --> 00:22:26,091
it's essentially uh a similar thing slightly more digitized but so okay so is this something that

311
00:22:26,091 --> 00:22:32,691
you're actively actively looking into doing yourself as well i've no more like a curiosity

312
00:22:32,691 --> 00:22:38,371
hobby it's a bit too early to to really connect to it yeah um unless you want to be an early

313
00:22:38,371 --> 00:22:45,331
pioneer funder which i'm not in a position to do and so then but i'd like to in the long-term

314
00:22:45,331 --> 00:22:51,811
future i always like the idea of sailing like getting a sailboat as one of the bases um i already

315
00:22:51,811 --> 00:22:55,512
love living in a caravan like a camper van that's that's already incredibly rewarding

316
00:22:55,512 --> 00:23:02,492
so doing it on the high seas would be fun i never really was a sailor or like boat person so it

317
00:23:02,492 --> 00:23:03,871
would definitely be a new skill to learn.

318
00:23:05,391 --> 00:23:06,391
But yeah, the

319
00:23:06,391 --> 00:23:08,631
CSAT itself has interesting

320
00:23:08,631 --> 00:23:10,231
aspects to it.

321
00:23:10,512 --> 00:23:12,451
I definitely wouldn't mind doing it for

322
00:23:12,451 --> 00:23:13,992
like a couple weeks of vacation.

323
00:23:15,111 --> 00:23:15,611
The thing is,

324
00:23:16,111 --> 00:23:18,351
for every dwelling place, you really don't

325
00:23:18,351 --> 00:23:20,512
need to be there 24-7 for the entire

326
00:23:20,512 --> 00:23:22,552
year. Most usually

327
00:23:22,552 --> 00:23:24,492
we do travel a bit, and it can

328
00:23:24,492 --> 00:23:25,792
be more or less for people, but

329
00:23:25,792 --> 00:23:28,651
if you just want to stay in a cool

330
00:23:28,651 --> 00:23:30,451
Airbnb for three weeks,

331
00:23:31,332 --> 00:23:32,111
there you have

332
00:23:32,111 --> 00:23:41,231
like ocean view 365 degrees and like zero zero steps till the waterfront you know that's not a

333
00:23:41,231 --> 00:23:45,772
bad deal and you can probably get it for much cheaper than than actual beachfront property

334
00:23:45,772 --> 00:23:51,151
yeah that's true you can you can create your own uh i guess waterfront property you know you may be

335
00:23:51,151 --> 00:23:55,911
a little bit deep for the beach once you're in international waters i mean that's really what

336
00:23:55,911 --> 00:23:59,812
kind of you're you're getting because obviously there are territorial waters uh on the you know

337
00:23:59,812 --> 00:24:04,351
on coasts and like that are patrolled, that are kind of like managed, you know,

338
00:24:04,351 --> 00:24:06,651
by whatever the country's version of the Coast Guard is.

339
00:24:06,711 --> 00:24:10,651
But once you're in international waters, like for the most part, kind of all bets are off, right?

340
00:24:10,671 --> 00:24:15,311
Like there are obviously various agreements in place that cover different international waters.

341
00:24:15,311 --> 00:24:20,211
But like it is kind of as close as you can get to a true anarchic system these days.

342
00:24:20,211 --> 00:24:20,971
Is that fair to say?

343
00:24:21,591 --> 00:24:23,131
No, it 100% is.

344
00:24:23,611 --> 00:24:26,012
I mean, there are, you know, some treaties.

345
00:24:26,012 --> 00:24:33,111
But ultimately, if you're the captain of the boat, there is no higher authority over you that could legally prevent you from doing stuff.

346
00:24:34,012 --> 00:24:39,611
It's quite actually an extreme setup, legally speaking, and it works.

347
00:24:39,671 --> 00:24:40,231
It has worked.

348
00:24:40,571 --> 00:24:43,651
It's the only possible way that it could work, right?

349
00:24:43,752 --> 00:24:48,111
Like, how could you enforce a tyranny on the oceans?

350
00:24:48,331 --> 00:24:50,032
Like, it simply doesn't work.

351
00:24:50,111 --> 00:24:53,391
That's why the pirates in the 1700s were so incredibly successful.

352
00:24:53,391 --> 00:24:57,951
because the technology and the reality of physics and the world

353
00:24:57,951 --> 00:25:01,911
was strongly in the favor of their independence and protection and freedom.

354
00:25:02,752 --> 00:25:07,252
And when the set-in setting is such, then the result is quite inevitable.

355
00:25:07,891 --> 00:25:12,792
And I think we absolutely have a chance of re-sparking the same scenario in cyberspace

356
00:25:12,792 --> 00:25:16,971
where the space is so vast.

357
00:25:17,451 --> 00:25:19,151
Imagine 256 bits.

358
00:25:19,671 --> 00:25:22,651
It's so mind-gobbingly fucking huge.

359
00:25:23,391 --> 00:25:26,272
Like this is way bigger than the C's.

360
00:25:26,431 --> 00:25:28,671
This is infinitely bigger than the C's.

361
00:25:29,252 --> 00:25:31,951
And, you know, if we need more space, we just double the key size.

362
00:25:32,012 --> 00:25:32,391
It's fine.

363
00:25:33,331 --> 00:25:40,391
So, and now inside this vast space, we can perfectly hide ourselves

364
00:25:40,391 --> 00:25:44,492
and such that no middleman can actually find us and pinpoint where we are,

365
00:25:44,792 --> 00:25:45,451
which is incredible.

366
00:25:45,451 --> 00:25:48,492
But we can still authenticate ourselves to our friends

367
00:25:48,492 --> 00:25:53,231
and establish secure communication channels across this vast distance

368
00:25:53,231 --> 00:25:57,131
to still coordinate and trade and collaborate with each other.

369
00:25:57,631 --> 00:26:02,191
That favors the free market and prosperity to such an enormous extent

370
00:26:02,191 --> 00:26:06,471
that I don't really see how in the long run that it could turn out any other way.

371
00:26:07,792 --> 00:26:11,651
It goes back to like the, I'm forgetting if it was the,

372
00:26:12,611 --> 00:26:16,351
I think it was in Timothy May's crypto anarchist manifesto

373
00:26:16,351 --> 00:26:19,451
where he basically said, it could have also been the cyberpunk manifesto.

374
00:26:19,451 --> 00:26:21,492
Now I'm getting the two of them confused.

375
00:26:21,492 --> 00:26:33,831
But the idea that you should like with anonymous transaction systems, with anonymous communication systems or pseudonymous communication systems, you can engage in commerce without ever actually knowing that other person.

376
00:26:33,831 --> 00:27:03,811
While you can also develop a web of trust in cyberspace, you can go even one step further, which is you can engage in commerce in a meaningful way without needing to know that person's real name, without needing to know where they are, without needing to know really who they are to any meaningful degree, providing you both anonymity or pseudonymity that is protecting you from things that may do you harm in the meat space, but still allowing you to engage in cooperative, productive commerce through cyberspace, through the beauty of encryption.

377
00:27:03,831 --> 00:27:10,772
There's that other quote, I think many people have said something to this effect, but Assange is the one that comes to mind.

378
00:27:10,831 --> 00:27:16,292
The idea that it's this amazing thing that the universe believes in encryption, right?

379
00:27:16,311 --> 00:27:20,211
And that it's harder to decrypt something than it is to encrypt something.

380
00:27:20,371 --> 00:27:23,431
And that is the asymmetric power that we have right now.

381
00:27:23,591 --> 00:27:25,891
We have that, like the universe believes in encryption.

382
00:27:26,651 --> 00:27:27,311
We're good.

383
00:27:27,391 --> 00:27:28,211
We have that capability.

384
00:27:28,331 --> 00:27:30,951
You can encrypt very, very trivially easily.

385
00:27:30,951 --> 00:27:37,171
decrypting is order many many many unfathomably orders of magnitude

386
00:27:37,171 --> 00:28:08,923
exponentially larger difficulty to do and like that the thing that gives us power right that the thing that allows us and that those rules apply to the state as well for encryption and decryption But typically the state may want to decrypt the things that we are doing you know rather than rather than encrypt them But I just think it such a fascinating thing that we at this time And whether it be physical you know kind of anarchic spaces or regions like the open seas or whether it be digital anarchic regions in cyberspace we do have ways of

387
00:28:08,923 --> 00:28:16,583
of really grabbing onto freedom and holding onto it that we didn't have before.

388
00:28:17,303 --> 00:28:17,783
Asymmetric.

389
00:28:17,923 --> 00:28:19,823
We have an asymmetric defense mechanism,

390
00:28:19,963 --> 00:28:20,583
put another way.

391
00:28:21,283 --> 00:28:24,403
Like imagine building something like the lightning network with gold,

392
00:28:24,723 --> 00:28:24,863
right?

393
00:28:24,863 --> 00:28:27,963
So I have a piece of gold and I give it to Walker saying,

394
00:28:28,043 --> 00:28:28,103
Hey,

395
00:28:28,143 --> 00:28:30,103
can I pass it on to,

396
00:28:30,223 --> 00:28:30,563
I don't know,

397
00:28:30,603 --> 00:28:30,823
GG,

398
00:28:31,063 --> 00:28:31,263
right?

399
00:28:31,263 --> 00:28:31,603
And,

400
00:28:31,603 --> 00:28:34,043
and GG is supposed to pass it on to,

401
00:28:34,183 --> 00:28:34,823
to the next guy,

402
00:28:34,883 --> 00:28:35,023
right?

403
00:28:35,063 --> 00:28:35,303
And,

404
00:28:35,303 --> 00:28:35,583
and,

405
00:28:35,583 --> 00:28:37,463
and then finally to the person I want to pay,

406
00:28:37,463 --> 00:28:44,143
like cool how long do you think it would take until the gold disappears in the middle

407
00:28:44,143 --> 00:28:51,783
like very very fast so the the system simply doesn't work right you would need to know exactly

408
00:28:51,783 --> 00:28:56,403
whom you're passing along the gold tool right and and where they are and you would want to have

409
00:28:56,403 --> 00:29:00,923
checks and then probably that they do some deposit that in the case that they steal they lose some

410
00:29:00,923 --> 00:29:05,923
type of money you know it's like crazy more complex and with bitcoin we can literally do that that's

411
00:29:05,923 --> 00:29:11,183
exactly how the lightning network works we just send bitcoin along but with the genius of

412
00:29:11,183 --> 00:29:16,583
cryptography we have it such that nobody can steal the money and it's it's incredible like that's a

413
00:29:16,583 --> 00:29:24,523
system of human collaboration that that ensures reliability and delivery of good with with

414
00:29:24,523 --> 00:29:31,263
basically 100 uptime and no way of the money ever getting lost or misaccounted for or stolen

415
00:29:31,263 --> 00:29:36,403
like that's that's mind-bogglingly that we can actually do that nowadays and the lightning

416
00:29:36,403 --> 00:29:41,923
network is just a it's just the beginning like that's that's a tiny tiny small protocol we can

417
00:29:41,923 --> 00:29:48,323
do so much more with it it feels like there's been and i haven't been around bitcoin for that long

418
00:29:48,323 --> 00:29:52,603
well i haven't been paying attention actively to bitcoin for that long i wish i would have paid

419
00:29:52,603 --> 00:29:56,883
attention the first couple times i heard about it as does everyone right it is the rare breed of

420
00:29:56,883 --> 00:30:00,903
human that, uh, that paid attention and went deep down the rabbit hole the very first time.

421
00:30:00,903 --> 00:30:05,203
It was not me though. Um, and I'm sure it's not a lot of, of other people, but to those who did

422
00:30:05,203 --> 00:30:11,203
kudos hats off to you. You are a, uh, you are a more awake person than I was, but it seems that

423
00:30:11,203 --> 00:30:16,623
there's been just this kind of explosion in the last couple of years with, I mean, not only

424
00:30:16,623 --> 00:30:20,623
different L2s, but then if maybe you want to classify them as like L3s, like, like cashew,

425
00:30:20,763 --> 00:30:25,503
like Fetiment, these other, uh, you know, these other scaling layers on top of Bitcoin that yes,

426
00:30:25,503 --> 00:30:31,023
they have their trade-offs. Callie will be the first to tell you that like, yes, this is, you

427
00:30:31,023 --> 00:30:34,903
know, there are trade-offs here. You have to, you have to have some trust. You can spread that trust

428
00:30:34,903 --> 00:30:39,583
out, but there, there is trust. It's not trustless base layer, but it is amazing to see this,

429
00:30:39,663 --> 00:30:43,783
this explosion. And it feels like it's just, I mean, it's still just people hacking away, right?

430
00:30:43,883 --> 00:30:49,683
It's, it's not, it's not, it's still unknown to the majority of the world. Most people,

431
00:30:49,683 --> 00:30:54,143
most people don't own Bitcoin or use Bitcoin, the vast, vast 99 plus percent.

432
00:30:54,903 --> 00:30:59,923
Out of those people that even do know about Bitcoin, use Bitcoin, the amount that use

433
00:30:59,923 --> 00:31:03,663
these other layers on top of Bitcoin is even a smaller fraction of that.

434
00:31:03,863 --> 00:31:05,023
Like it's even smaller.

435
00:31:05,103 --> 00:31:07,403
So it just feels like we're so incredibly early.

436
00:31:07,603 --> 00:31:10,683
And it makes me very hopeful about the future to think about what's it going to look like

437
00:31:10,683 --> 00:31:15,443
when my son is, you know, when my son is my age, like what are, what is going to be available

438
00:31:15,443 --> 00:31:15,723
then?

439
00:31:15,723 --> 00:31:19,363
Like I can't even quite fathom it just because the rate of development, the rate of change

440
00:31:19,363 --> 00:31:21,103
is so, so fast.

441
00:31:22,063 --> 00:31:22,623
Yeah, yeah.

442
00:31:22,863 --> 00:31:25,263
And it can be incredibly dangerous

443
00:31:25,263 --> 00:31:28,543
when technologies are distributed unevenly.

444
00:31:29,083 --> 00:31:30,763
Imagine on the battlefield

445
00:31:30,763 --> 00:31:33,543
there is one guy in a full metal plate armor

446
00:31:33,543 --> 00:31:36,143
and the other guys only have like wooden clubs

447
00:31:36,143 --> 00:31:38,523
and stone sticks, you know.

448
00:31:39,163 --> 00:31:41,223
They simply have no chance, right?

449
00:31:41,223 --> 00:31:43,603
The one guy can slaughter thousands of them.

450
00:31:44,423 --> 00:31:45,683
Maybe eventually he gets tired,

451
00:31:46,203 --> 00:31:49,003
but like there's almost nothing

452
00:31:49,003 --> 00:31:52,483
that can stop him given this asymmetric distribution of technology.

453
00:31:53,363 --> 00:31:57,483
And I guess we see this obviously in the fiat system.

454
00:31:57,763 --> 00:32:01,083
There's very, very few people who have direct access to the money printer,

455
00:32:01,483 --> 00:32:02,443
and you're not one of them.

456
00:32:04,123 --> 00:32:07,103
So that puts you in a very bad position, by the way.

457
00:32:07,143 --> 00:32:08,303
You should do something about that.

458
00:32:10,143 --> 00:32:12,823
And also likewise though with Bitcoin.

459
00:32:13,063 --> 00:32:15,423
Bitcoin was incredibly unequally distributed.

460
00:32:15,423 --> 00:32:17,423
it. In the first four

461
00:32:17,423 --> 00:32:19,323
years, where still nobody

462
00:32:19,323 --> 00:32:21,403
knew about it, half of the money was issued

463
00:32:21,403 --> 00:32:23,343
to the early adopters. That's

464
00:32:23,343 --> 00:32:25,223
ridiculous. A couple thousand

465
00:32:25,223 --> 00:32:27,123
people got half of the money supply

466
00:32:27,123 --> 00:32:28,463
in the first four years.

467
00:32:30,303 --> 00:32:30,783
And

468
00:32:30,783 --> 00:32:33,063
that sucks, not just for the people who

469
00:32:33,063 --> 00:32:35,183
didn't pay attention, but also for the people who

470
00:32:35,183 --> 00:32:36,183
were simply not yet born.

471
00:32:37,303 --> 00:32:38,943
And that puts

472
00:32:38,943 --> 00:32:41,123
people who are early in Bitcoin

473
00:32:41,123 --> 00:32:43,023
ultimately to a huge

474
00:32:43,023 --> 00:32:45,343
responsibility to do something

475
00:32:45,343 --> 00:32:48,343
meaningful with the capital that they acquired.

476
00:32:48,963 --> 00:32:51,163
Ultimately, if they spend it on frivolous things,

477
00:32:51,263 --> 00:32:54,083
eventually it will be gone and redistributed to the society.

478
00:32:54,243 --> 00:32:56,283
So this is only an issue for a couple generations.

479
00:32:57,343 --> 00:33:01,403
But considering that the early adopters of Bitcoiners

480
00:33:01,403 --> 00:33:06,663
had a high likelihood of being very ethically motivated people,

481
00:33:06,663 --> 00:33:11,723
very principled freedom lovers, ultimately,

482
00:33:11,723 --> 00:33:17,043
that is a massive glitch in the matrix that we found

483
00:33:17,043 --> 00:33:23,323
that these types of people enjoyed that massive early adopter benefit

484
00:33:23,323 --> 00:33:27,383
rather than the continual layer class who did before.

485
00:33:27,803 --> 00:33:30,063
So a quite unique opportunity.

486
00:33:31,203 --> 00:33:35,343
And hopefully that means that we have at least a handful of people

487
00:33:35,343 --> 00:33:39,303
who still hold these freedom principles very strongly

488
00:33:39,303 --> 00:33:41,643
but now are sitting on thousands of Bitcoin.

489
00:33:41,723 --> 00:33:50,723
and that's that's interesting so yeah let's see what what this yeah group of people or this cohort

490
00:33:50,723 --> 00:33:57,583
of people does with this extremely asymmetric distribution of monetary technology and yeah

491
00:33:57,583 --> 00:34:04,783
hopefully it it goes up good yeah i mean it is so fascinating because we've seen just on the topic

492
00:34:04,783 --> 00:34:09,323
of the let's say the redistribution of this through uh through organic means right i'm not

493
00:34:09,323 --> 00:34:16,723
saying through forced redistribution, but we had the OG whale with 80,000 Bitcoin earlier this

494
00:34:16,723 --> 00:34:22,243
summer who sold them off, wanted to diversify into some fiat, I guess, probably mined those

495
00:34:22,243 --> 00:34:27,503
Bitcoin or bought those Bitcoin for virtually nothing. Took a massive risk still nonetheless,

496
00:34:27,703 --> 00:34:34,643
and holding it that long is truly incredible. That's, I think, the real amazing part is you

497
00:34:34,643 --> 00:34:39,923
were able to not just be aware of it, acquire it at that time, but hold on to it. Because there are

498
00:34:39,923 --> 00:34:44,263
plenty that were aware of it, acquired it, and then didn't manage to hold on to it or sold for

499
00:34:44,263 --> 00:34:50,203
100x profit and said, this is amazing. I can't believe this. And little did they know there was

500
00:34:50,203 --> 00:34:55,723
going to be tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of X profit there. But you do see

501
00:34:55,723 --> 00:35:00,563
that distribution happening. I think that's one of the reasons why we're seeing Bitcoin being so

502
00:35:00,563 --> 00:35:06,483
boring, you know, around 100,000, you know, infinitely printable U.S. fiat cuck bucks per coin.

503
00:35:06,623 --> 00:35:07,503
This is the bear market now.

504
00:35:07,843 --> 00:35:08,023
Yeah.

505
00:35:08,703 --> 00:35:12,543
I mean, it is funny that like we're really doing the meme right now.

506
00:35:12,723 --> 00:35:14,463
The, you know, Bitcoin crashes to 100K.

507
00:35:14,643 --> 00:35:17,163
Like it's, human psychology is fascinating.

508
00:35:17,503 --> 00:35:18,543
It really is.

509
00:35:18,903 --> 00:35:22,223
But like we're seeing, and I think to your point, this distribution is a good thing.

510
00:35:22,563 --> 00:35:25,643
It's a good thing for the ownership to spread out.

511
00:35:25,643 --> 00:35:30,783
You want it to be broad and not so deep and centrally controlled.

512
00:35:30,963 --> 00:35:35,083
And granted, them having all that Bitcoin doesn't mean they can change the rules of Bitcoin, right?

513
00:35:35,483 --> 00:35:41,123
But it is a lot of economic energy that a small cohort of people were in control of.

514
00:35:41,243 --> 00:35:50,823
But to your point, I am very interested to see, not even talking about the people that have, that guy had 80,000 or that gal, I don't know, had 80,000 Bitcoin.

515
00:35:51,283 --> 00:35:53,023
Like that's a, wow, insane amount.

516
00:35:53,103 --> 00:35:54,383
Maybe he's got a couple other wallets too.

517
00:35:54,383 --> 00:35:54,863
I don't know.

518
00:35:55,643 --> 00:36:03,503
But even the people who just have hundreds or thousands of Bitcoin, that's an incredible amount of economic energy.

519
00:36:04,583 --> 00:36:21,083
And if they are as, say, aligned ideologically as it would be reasonable to think that they are, that's a very powerful economic force that has just kind of come out of nowhere.

520
00:36:21,283 --> 00:36:23,743
And that is also very, you don't know who they are.

521
00:36:24,063 --> 00:36:25,483
I think that's the really powerful thing.

522
00:36:25,483 --> 00:36:29,023
It's like, you know, fiat billionaires, like, you know who they are.

523
00:36:29,463 --> 00:36:32,843
Bitcoin billionaires could just be that guy sitting right in the bus next to you.

524
00:36:32,903 --> 00:36:37,663
Like, you really don't, like, you don't know if they've done well enough to preserve their privacy.

525
00:36:37,743 --> 00:36:39,743
And I think that's kind of an incredible wild card.

526
00:36:40,123 --> 00:36:47,443
We don't really usually have that kind of hidden economic energy that Bitcoin has enabled for these really early adopters.

527
00:36:48,303 --> 00:36:49,323
Yeah, yeah.

528
00:36:49,323 --> 00:36:53,823
And, you know, often they have a huge incentive to keep this hidden

529
00:36:53,823 --> 00:36:58,143
and remain anonymous simply for personal security, obviously,

530
00:36:58,343 --> 00:36:59,923
and protection of the assets.

531
00:37:00,763 --> 00:37:06,743
So this will be really interesting on how this will develop.

532
00:37:06,883 --> 00:37:10,003
I mean, this could definitely turn into massive chaos, you know,

533
00:37:10,063 --> 00:37:13,683
if the wrong people have such an enormous amount of wealth.

534
00:37:14,123 --> 00:37:15,103
They can wreak havoc.

535
00:37:15,103 --> 00:37:16,983
I mean, look at the last 100 years, right?

536
00:37:17,283 --> 00:37:18,263
That's exactly what happened.

537
00:37:19,323 --> 00:37:22,323
It could be worse, yes, but I hope it's going to be much better.

538
00:37:22,323 --> 00:37:29,483
I hope we will have some, yeah, I guess, like ethical philanthropists,

539
00:37:29,643 --> 00:37:30,723
not the Bill Gates type.

540
00:37:31,803 --> 00:37:32,283
Right.

541
00:37:32,443 --> 00:37:36,543
I mean, I like to think that, and maybe this will happen, maybe it won't,

542
00:37:36,583 --> 00:37:39,803
but the idea of patronage will come back.

543
00:37:39,943 --> 00:37:42,703
Patronage for artists, patronage for inventors.

544
00:37:43,443 --> 00:37:46,603
You know, everything Da Vinci was able to do was because he was,

545
00:37:46,603 --> 00:37:51,923
you know, the, the Medici's were his, his patrons, right? He, he didn't have to worry about like,

546
00:37:52,483 --> 00:37:55,843
am I going to be able to sell this invention? You know, am I going to be able to sell this sketch?

547
00:37:55,943 --> 00:38:01,183
No, it was like, I'm just, I'm, I'm good. I'm covered. I'm just going to do what I think is,

548
00:38:01,183 --> 00:38:08,243
is fascinating. And like clearly a very unique and singular mind in Da Vinci, but you know,

549
00:38:08,683 --> 00:38:13,523
how many other Da Vinci's are out there that just were, were, were crushed by the public school

550
00:38:13,523 --> 00:38:18,223
system and then the nine to five and whatever else because they were simply trying to make ends meet

551
00:38:18,223 --> 00:38:23,843
i wonder how much a culture of of patronage of the arts and of technologists and inventors will

552
00:38:23,843 --> 00:38:31,243
come back i'd be very interested to see yeah like i it would be amazing if if the next da vinci gets

553
00:38:31,243 --> 00:38:37,163
you know his patronage and and can spend his time on building freedom tech and freedom tech as as

554
00:38:37,163 --> 00:38:42,623
beautiful as those cathedrals were but that that would be breathtaking so i'm really bullish in

555
00:38:42,623 --> 00:38:49,103
organizations like open science etc that just yeah give like really an army of freedom tech

556
00:38:49,103 --> 00:38:54,403
builders the funds to just do their thing and the the results of that are extremely promising

557
00:38:54,403 --> 00:39:00,983
so there's there's a lot more fun the thing is there's some like there's a lot of money slushing

558
00:39:00,983 --> 00:39:06,483
around in in this kind of developer space if you consider all of the companies and organizations

559
00:39:06,483 --> 00:39:10,943
that are paying people to work on bitcoin it's it's a decent amount of money it's not little

560
00:39:10,943 --> 00:39:19,423
but even if it's like 10x more 100,000 more like I would know where to spend that money like I could

561
00:39:19,423 --> 00:39:25,483
hire at least 100 times more devs and and build stuff like no no questions asked I'm not running

562
00:39:25,483 --> 00:39:32,383
out of problems to solve or interesting tools to build and so if if we can really increase and

563
00:39:32,383 --> 00:39:37,643
like considering the rather limited amount of funding that the space is having the the amount

564
00:39:37,643 --> 00:39:45,223
of stuff that we build and the quality of it is really really good so i i hope uh funding for

565
00:39:45,223 --> 00:39:51,103
freedom tech will go up in the future rather than go down and if that is the case then spicy times

566
00:39:51,103 --> 00:39:56,823
ahead you know speaking of which what what are you working on right now what's uh what i know

567
00:39:56,823 --> 00:40:01,783
you're always you always have your uh your toes dipped in a few different ponds but uh what's uh

568
00:40:01,783 --> 00:40:06,403
what's what's taking a lot of your attention right now generally speaking i'm just helping

569
00:40:06,403 --> 00:40:08,423
the Freedom Tech projects get built.

570
00:40:08,863 --> 00:40:12,403
I'm not a dev, so I can do all the other stuff.

571
00:40:12,703 --> 00:40:14,363
And that's not so much work, actually.

572
00:40:15,003 --> 00:40:17,943
So I can do it for more projects than just one,

573
00:40:18,123 --> 00:40:19,963
which I really enjoy.

574
00:40:20,143 --> 00:40:24,003
Because it's so hard to choose which project to work on

575
00:40:24,003 --> 00:40:25,383
because they're all so cool.

576
00:40:26,823 --> 00:40:29,483
And so if I cannot make the choice

577
00:40:29,483 --> 00:40:30,763
and just say yes to everything,

578
00:40:30,763 --> 00:40:33,703
then I'll do that for a while until it gets too much.

579
00:40:33,703 --> 00:40:40,363
but so ultimately i think the one of the big problems that really calls out to me that that

580
00:40:40,363 --> 00:40:47,323
needs to be solved is to have a private experience of nostor and nostor works so beautifully well for

581
00:40:47,323 --> 00:40:51,443
public announcements of stuff like our podcast right now right this live stream happening on

582
00:40:51,443 --> 00:40:57,823
nostor like that's that's incredible right you can release software with with app store right you can

583
00:40:57,823 --> 00:41:04,263
make short posts, blogs, you can sell stuff, really whatever you want to publicly announce,

584
00:41:04,363 --> 00:41:10,443
you can do with Noster. And that's incredibly powerful. But the core architecture and the

585
00:41:10,443 --> 00:41:16,343
spirit of Noster can absolutely be expressed in a private setting as well, with encrypted content

586
00:41:16,343 --> 00:41:21,863
that even though that ciphertext is available to anyone on public relays, we just assume that this

587
00:41:21,863 --> 00:41:27,603
is public. But despite that, there is no way that anyone can crack the decryption and read the actual

588
00:41:27,603 --> 00:41:30,963
message and even further know who sent the message or who's

589
00:41:30,963 --> 00:41:45,674
receiving this message or downloading it et cetera Once we have these types of security guarantees the canvas and the toolbox of what we have with Nostra just goes exponentially through the roof A lot of human interaction

590
00:41:45,674 --> 00:41:52,254
requires privacy to work, at least to any reasonable extent. And if we have strong privacy

591
00:41:52,254 --> 00:41:58,014
guarantees rather than weak ones, then we can actually trust the building blocks and see them

592
00:41:58,014 --> 00:42:00,554
solid foundations to build more stuff on top.

593
00:42:01,034 --> 00:42:04,254
Because if your entire secure system

594
00:42:04,254 --> 00:42:07,014
depends that a server administrator in the back end

595
00:42:07,014 --> 00:42:09,194
who's earning almost nothing,

596
00:42:09,314 --> 00:42:10,914
who has to sweat and wake up in the midnight

597
00:42:10,914 --> 00:42:13,474
just to make sure the servers are still running,

598
00:42:14,194 --> 00:42:17,634
this grumpy guy has the power to rip everyone off.

599
00:42:18,794 --> 00:42:21,354
And eventually he'll just take the money.

600
00:42:21,694 --> 00:42:23,894
Or he'll take a big paycheck from someone else

601
00:42:23,894 --> 00:42:26,075
and he will help him to take all the money

602
00:42:26,075 --> 00:42:28,514
or the data or the honeypot, whatever it is.

603
00:42:28,734 --> 00:42:32,075
But that is a really bad situation to be in.

604
00:42:33,075 --> 00:42:38,254
So yeah, ultimately, we really have a cool opportunity

605
00:42:38,254 --> 00:42:41,794
to build a private existence on Noster.

606
00:42:42,394 --> 00:42:46,114
And there's a bunch of different ways that we could do it,

607
00:42:46,194 --> 00:42:49,734
but one fascinating encryption scheme that we found

608
00:42:49,734 --> 00:42:51,714
is the messaging layer security protocol.

609
00:42:52,274 --> 00:42:54,934
And this is basically a protocol that a group of people

610
00:42:54,934 --> 00:42:56,934
can come up with a shared secret

611
00:42:56,934 --> 00:42:59,754
that they can encrypt messages to

612
00:42:59,754 --> 00:43:01,734
and then later everyone can decrypt them.

613
00:43:02,214 --> 00:43:04,674
But it's a smart algorithm where we rotate the keys.

614
00:43:04,794 --> 00:43:07,595
So we don't encrypt everything to the same key all the time,

615
00:43:07,994 --> 00:43:09,234
but we keep switching them out.

616
00:43:09,634 --> 00:43:12,314
And we can add people to the group, we can remove them,

617
00:43:12,874 --> 00:43:15,254
we can define who can write in a group,

618
00:43:15,334 --> 00:43:16,434
we can only read it, etc.

619
00:43:17,154 --> 00:43:20,075
And once we have this encryption envelope,

620
00:43:20,994 --> 00:43:22,575
we can put all of the NOSTO events,

621
00:43:22,894 --> 00:43:23,994
all the different kind numbers,

622
00:43:23,994 --> 00:43:27,454
all the different use cases that already all of the clients support.

623
00:43:28,194 --> 00:43:31,054
Now we can drop in these events in the encrypted envelope

624
00:43:31,054 --> 00:43:34,494
and we just need to decrypt them on the client side

625
00:43:34,494 --> 00:43:37,514
and any existing application can interpret them

626
00:43:37,514 --> 00:43:40,514
and use them for whatever it needs to be used.

627
00:43:41,214 --> 00:43:42,834
And so that's super, super bullish.

628
00:43:42,834 --> 00:43:45,174
And that's the Marmot protocol.

629
00:43:46,354 --> 00:43:51,534
Okay. Is that what White Noise is using or is that a different setup?

630
00:43:52,194 --> 00:43:53,494
Yeah, exactly. That's White Noise.

631
00:43:53,494 --> 00:43:59,394
And so we set out almost two years ago or something to solve this group messaging problem in Nostra

632
00:43:59,394 --> 00:44:05,674
and went through a couple of different encryption schemes and thought through how they might work

633
00:44:05,674 --> 00:44:11,354
and ultimately settled on this one, a quite modern variant of the signal protocol, so to say.

634
00:44:12,075 --> 00:44:18,334
And the goal always was to fix this for existing Nostra applications.

635
00:44:18,814 --> 00:44:22,654
And I want Primal to have world-class encryption for their messaging

636
00:44:22,654 --> 00:44:26,774
and that primal users can write Damos users or Amethyst users

637
00:44:26,774 --> 00:44:30,214
sharing the same encryption scheme, being interoperable

638
00:44:30,214 --> 00:44:34,194
with all of this beauty that we have in Noster just on a private way.

639
00:44:34,834 --> 00:44:38,154
And so it was much more than just creating an app like White Noise

640
00:44:38,154 --> 00:44:40,794
that does this because that's just another app.

641
00:44:40,834 --> 00:44:42,654
That's not really going to change the needle.

642
00:44:43,095 --> 00:44:44,354
We need to fix all the apps.

643
00:44:44,354 --> 00:44:46,114
And so for that, we need a protocol.

644
00:44:46,854 --> 00:44:49,454
And so ultimately, we came up with this Marmot protocol

645
00:44:49,454 --> 00:44:54,354
that encompasses three kind of sub-protocols

646
00:44:54,354 --> 00:44:56,534
to enable this private realm.

647
00:44:57,234 --> 00:44:59,054
There is the NOSTER protocol, obviously.

648
00:44:59,614 --> 00:45:03,114
We create NOSTER identities, NSECs, NPUPs, etc.

649
00:45:03,334 --> 00:45:05,834
And we use NOSTER relays to deliver the messages.

650
00:45:06,595 --> 00:45:08,234
Then we have Blossom.

651
00:45:08,514 --> 00:45:10,034
Blossom is very similar to NOSTER,

652
00:45:10,034 --> 00:45:11,394
but NOSTER is for text,

653
00:45:11,595 --> 00:45:14,894
and Blossom is for images or PDFs or any arbitrary data.

654
00:45:15,694 --> 00:45:19,095
And then, so that's how we send encrypted pictures and so on.

655
00:45:19,454 --> 00:45:23,834
And then we have the messaging layer security protocol, MLS.

656
00:45:24,274 --> 00:45:27,095
And that's the whole encryption key derivation scheme.

657
00:45:28,194 --> 00:45:32,334
And all of this together gives us a completely decentralized,

658
00:45:32,834 --> 00:45:37,114
unstoppable, perfectly encrypted, fully private system

659
00:45:37,114 --> 00:45:41,134
where we can switch out how we deliver the messages.

660
00:45:41,134 --> 00:45:42,494
We can use NOSTA relays.

661
00:45:42,914 --> 00:45:44,694
We can use multiple of them at the same time.

662
00:45:44,734 --> 00:45:47,674
Or we just use Bluetooth or USB sticks or whatever.

663
00:45:48,214 --> 00:45:49,414
It really doesn't matter that much.

664
00:45:49,454 --> 00:45:53,114
because the server no longer defines the identity of the user.

665
00:45:53,534 --> 00:45:55,494
The user defines the identity of the user.

666
00:45:55,734 --> 00:45:58,114
You sit in your bathroom, you throw some dice,

667
00:45:58,554 --> 00:45:59,474
you get a private key,

668
00:45:59,974 --> 00:46:02,514
and you sign a message saying that this is my name,

669
00:46:02,594 --> 00:46:05,054
hello world, and voila, that's it.

670
00:46:05,054 --> 00:46:08,414
And with this mindset, together with the sovereign encryption,

671
00:46:09,114 --> 00:46:12,494
we have an infrastructure-independent message delivery,

672
00:46:12,654 --> 00:46:16,214
independent, strong encryption scheme that can be interoperable,

673
00:46:16,214 --> 00:46:20,354
and for that we're building the code and the dev tooling and the libraries

674
00:46:20,354 --> 00:46:23,634
to make it easy for others to implement this into their existing apps.

675
00:46:25,534 --> 00:46:29,754
It's super cool and I mean the obvious one of the incredible benefits

676
00:46:29,754 --> 00:46:32,454
is that if AWS happens to have a big outage,

677
00:46:33,394 --> 00:46:37,814
this won't just unilaterally go down like Signal had issues recently.

678
00:46:38,534 --> 00:46:42,594
I feel like that outage made a lot of people realize,

679
00:46:43,294 --> 00:46:45,834
oh huh, Signal is a great tool.

680
00:46:46,214 --> 00:46:55,554
I use Signal every day, but it obviously has some infrastructure vulnerabilities because of the centralization of that infrastructure.

681
00:46:55,554 --> 00:47:05,854
And that's where the utilization of NOSTA relays, while some may in fact go down if they were hosted that way, you're not going to take all of them down unilaterally at once.

682
00:47:05,854 --> 00:47:19,714
So you're still going to have a much better chance of getting a message delivered, an encrypted message delivered, even in the event of large scale outages across other centralized server clusters, which is pretty amazing and I think kind of like vital, actually.

683
00:47:20,714 --> 00:47:25,814
Yeah, Signal reminds me so much of David Chom's early eCache projects.

684
00:47:26,634 --> 00:47:28,394
They had a really difficult problem.

685
00:47:28,874 --> 00:47:32,794
Signal is trying to make a group of people communicate privately super fucking hard.

686
00:47:32,794 --> 00:47:38,634
charm had probably even a bit more difficult problem of let's make digital payments work

687
00:47:38,634 --> 00:47:44,534
and they had tremendous issues of coordination in in charm's case it was especially about

688
00:47:44,534 --> 00:47:49,974
time stamping right we need to prevent double spending ultimately um and the creation of new

689
00:47:49,974 --> 00:47:53,894
tokens right so who can inflate the money supply these two things are super difficult to solve

690
00:47:53,894 --> 00:47:59,575
and and with signal it's how how do we establish keys right like someone wants to just type in a

691
00:47:59,575 --> 00:48:06,474
username and and get the public keys of someone how do we do that how do we uh you know um set

692
00:48:06,474 --> 00:48:11,854
like deliver those group messages and send notifications to people and and all of these

693
00:48:11,854 --> 00:48:17,414
get a lot easier when you have a centralized server in the middle like centralized solutions

694
00:48:17,414 --> 00:48:24,534
to difficult problems are way easier than decentralized solutions and so okay we have to

695
00:48:24,534 --> 00:48:30,194
use a centralized server but then at the very least let's reduce the amount of trust that we

696
00:48:30,194 --> 00:48:34,334
have to put in that server let's reduce the amount of power that the server has over the users

697
00:48:34,334 --> 00:48:40,034
let's make it so that at the very least messages are encrypted in signals case right so that the

698
00:48:40,034 --> 00:48:45,575
server cannot read the messages of of the people in the group and in david chombs case it was let's

699
00:48:45,575 --> 00:48:49,774
make the transaction private meaning that the server cannot say that this guy received a coin

700
00:48:49,774 --> 00:48:51,534
here and he's spending it now right there.

701
00:48:52,134 --> 00:48:53,894
And they utilize

702
00:48:53,894 --> 00:48:55,594
beautiful cryptography, super

703
00:48:55,594 --> 00:48:57,754
simple, elegant math formulas

704
00:48:57,754 --> 00:48:59,774
to provide these security

705
00:48:59,774 --> 00:49:01,434
guarantees very, very successfully.

706
00:49:01,814 --> 00:49:03,834
And it's a monumental breakthrough.

707
00:49:04,154 --> 00:49:05,734
This is fucking huge.

708
00:49:05,994 --> 00:49:07,894
E-cash was massive in the 80s.

709
00:49:08,134 --> 00:49:09,554
Way ahead of its time.

710
00:49:09,794 --> 00:49:11,734
Incredible, visionary, genius

711
00:49:11,734 --> 00:49:13,514
technology. Signal,

712
00:49:13,714 --> 00:49:15,714
from 2016 or something when that paper

713
00:49:15,714 --> 00:49:17,614
came out, also incredible,

714
00:49:18,034 --> 00:49:19,694
amazing,

715
00:49:19,774 --> 00:49:21,254
huge progress

716
00:49:21,254 --> 00:49:23,394
but as you say

717
00:49:23,394 --> 00:49:25,694
you plug out the computer and the system

718
00:49:25,694 --> 00:49:27,654
dies and that

719
00:49:27,654 --> 00:49:29,994
sucks for money, that sucks for speech

720
00:49:29,994 --> 00:49:31,174
it sucks for both

721
00:49:31,174 --> 00:49:33,934
if someone can just turn off your existence

722
00:49:33,934 --> 00:49:35,514
and your tools and your experience

723
00:49:35,514 --> 00:49:37,294
then sure

724
00:49:37,294 --> 00:49:39,194
as long as he doesn't it's fine

725
00:49:39,194 --> 00:49:41,554
but when he does

726
00:49:41,554 --> 00:49:43,854
it's critical and just the fear

727
00:49:43,854 --> 00:49:45,854
that it might happen in an

728
00:49:45,854 --> 00:49:47,834
unopportune time is enough to

729
00:49:47,834 --> 00:49:49,434
keep you anxious and keep you up at night

730
00:49:49,434 --> 00:49:54,454
So we need a decentralized system for timestamping and money.

731
00:49:54,974 --> 00:49:56,294
That's where Bitcoin comes in.

732
00:49:56,734 --> 00:50:00,834
But equally, we need to have a decentralized system for public speech.

733
00:50:01,075 --> 00:50:02,374
That's where Nostra comes in.

734
00:50:02,634 --> 00:50:03,954
It really works.

735
00:50:04,674 --> 00:50:06,854
But ultimately, we need to have a decentralized system

736
00:50:06,854 --> 00:50:08,854
for private communication and coordination.

737
00:50:09,654 --> 00:50:13,414
And I hope that Marmot is the protocol that can deliver it

738
00:50:13,414 --> 00:50:17,274
because it is decentralized to the very core of it.

739
00:50:17,274 --> 00:50:25,674
I think it's a really important point because it's easy to fall into the trap of like, well, we have Bitcoin, so we're good now, right?

740
00:50:26,174 --> 00:50:28,075
You know, they can't stop us from sending transactions.

741
00:50:28,075 --> 00:50:34,274
But what if you can't communicate in a secure and private way with the person you're trying to transact with?

742
00:50:34,834 --> 00:50:41,114
Like that communication layer is necessary to enable the monetary layer.

743
00:50:41,414 --> 00:50:44,974
If you're transacting through cyberspace, if you're not in the meat space.

744
00:50:44,974 --> 00:50:48,794
Okay, if you're in the meat space, you can scan a QR code, whatever, no problem.

745
00:50:49,154 --> 00:50:53,075
But once you are distributed, if you're trying to transact with somebody on the other side of the world,

746
00:50:53,514 --> 00:50:59,594
and you don't have a secure communication channel to be able to exchange addresses with, you've got a big problem.

747
00:51:00,134 --> 00:51:06,014
And if you've got, not only is it perhaps not secure, but if it's reliant on a third party just to keep it up and running,

748
00:51:07,154 --> 00:51:08,354
you've got a really big problem.

749
00:51:08,654 --> 00:51:13,774
Because then how can you have any sort of a guarantee that you will be able to exercise that freedom to transact

750
00:51:13,774 --> 00:51:16,714
without the freedom to communicate and communicate privately.

751
00:51:16,914 --> 00:51:19,254
In my mind, the two really go hand in hand.

752
00:51:20,454 --> 00:51:22,334
Yeah, they really do.

753
00:51:22,954 --> 00:51:27,954
And that's where we need to take all of the technologies

754
00:51:27,954 --> 00:51:31,854
that we've built and put them together in novel ways.

755
00:51:32,094 --> 00:51:35,974
And money, to some extent, is the least of our problems.

756
00:51:37,594 --> 00:51:38,934
It's hard to stay alive.

757
00:51:39,174 --> 00:51:41,434
We need to get food, we need to get clothing, shelter,

758
00:51:41,434 --> 00:51:47,294
like physical protection and like joy you know beautiful things art nice walks in the park etc

759
00:51:47,294 --> 00:51:52,994
like there's so many problems to solve in human existence and to a large extent i'm looking

760
00:51:52,994 --> 00:51:57,894
forward to finally being done with the money and being able to finally start solving real problems

761
00:51:57,894 --> 00:52:03,314
you know because most people don't work on the money most people work for the money sure but

762
00:52:03,314 --> 00:52:09,134
they solve some other incredibly important projects right in real industry and real human

763
00:52:09,134 --> 00:52:16,354
connections etc so i'm i'm really looking forward to be able to to fix or to work on these problems

764
00:52:16,354 --> 00:52:23,494
now knowing that the money has been solved because a lot of these higher order production things and

765
00:52:23,494 --> 00:52:30,514
and and services they they are so broken because the money is broken and that's why it was incredibly

766
00:52:30,514 --> 00:52:35,554
good that we took the time to fix the money it took long enough you know but now that we have it

767
00:52:35,554 --> 00:52:41,794
we can actually work on the other stuff with those solid foundations that we know won't won't break on

768
00:52:41,794 --> 00:52:47,034
us and and that's that's incredible and and if if we continue doing this for public speech for

769
00:52:47,034 --> 00:52:52,154
private speech for commerce for delivering physical goods etc for for all of these other

770
00:52:52,154 --> 00:52:57,774
important parts of the human existence when we have freedom tech in every single one of them

771
00:52:57,774 --> 00:53:00,094
Like that's, that's going to be cool.

772
00:53:01,174 --> 00:53:15,094
Well, and, and it's, it's like actually quite urgent, I think, because you see this, this totalitarian temptation always just creep in, right?

773
00:53:15,094 --> 00:53:22,454
it seems that even regardless of the political side that one may be on in any particular country,

774
00:53:22,994 --> 00:53:30,474
very few people are actually advocating to dismantle and shrink to the extreme

775
00:53:30,474 --> 00:53:33,014
the size of the bloated kleptocratic state.

776
00:53:33,334 --> 00:53:37,854
Most people are more concerned with, is my side in charge of the state as it is?

777
00:53:37,894 --> 00:53:40,894
And if it needs to grow a little bit for my people to maintain their power,

778
00:53:41,274 --> 00:53:43,575
that's okay by me as long as it's not the other guy in power.

779
00:53:43,575 --> 00:54:02,474
And both, you know, quote, sides tend to think this. But the reality is that like what we need to be doing is is massively shrinking the size of the state because you see this everywhere because of all of the incentives being broken, because of the fact that especially younger generations truly and rightly feel that they cannot get ahead.

780
00:54:02,474 --> 00:54:09,974
They're not going to be able to afford the boomer's house that now costs $2 million that the boomer bought for a handful of raspberries in the 70s.

781
00:54:10,174 --> 00:54:11,154
It's not going to happen.

782
00:54:11,254 --> 00:54:14,054
So they're understandably frustrated.

783
00:54:14,594 --> 00:54:21,914
They're frustrated because I think the main part of the frustration comes from just the fact that they don't actually understand what the true problem is.

784
00:54:21,994 --> 00:54:24,334
They see the symptoms of the problem but not the problem itself.

785
00:54:25,654 --> 00:54:27,774
And so you see this totalitarian creep everywhere.

786
00:54:27,774 --> 00:54:42,914
You see people advocating for ludicrous policies like the recent mayor-elect in New York who is just talking about freezing rents, government-controlled grocery stores, just make everything free.

787
00:54:43,514 --> 00:54:46,254
And it's like, boy, it seems like I've heard this before.

788
00:54:46,754 --> 00:54:50,414
And it didn't work out, and it ended in hundreds of millions dead.

789
00:54:50,834 --> 00:54:53,034
But hey, maybe it'll work out this time, right, buddy?

790
00:54:53,034 --> 00:55:02,794
but those those types of controls always tend to lead to controls in other parts of the of society

791
00:55:02,794 --> 00:55:08,934
right like the the totalitarianism starts out in in one part right before it becomes total it starts

792
00:55:08,934 --> 00:55:12,774
out with control let's control the price of this you know just it's just the price of milk and eggs

793
00:55:12,774 --> 00:55:16,094
we just need to do this right that ripples throughout and then once they realize they

794
00:55:16,094 --> 00:55:20,575
don't actually have control of anything that's when they have to start exerting more forceful

795
00:55:20,575 --> 00:55:23,654
and often violent control in other parts of people's lives

796
00:55:23,654 --> 00:55:26,334
to ensure that they're able to maintain control

797
00:55:26,334 --> 00:55:29,194
in these initial parts, the food, the shelter,

798
00:55:29,334 --> 00:55:29,575
all of those.

799
00:55:29,646 --> 00:55:37,446
things, transportation. But sadly, we're already at this stage where it feels like this,

800
00:55:38,406 --> 00:55:44,066
the Fiat Panopticon, the surveillance state is so pervasive and has just been so accepted that

801
00:55:44,066 --> 00:55:50,186
it doesn't take much for a totalitarian state to just take it one level higher,

802
00:55:50,306 --> 00:55:54,666
which is absolute control, right? Like the tools are already there for them to do that.

803
00:55:54,666 --> 00:56:00,926
it's now a question of do we have the necessary the requisite tools to be able to resist that

804
00:56:00,926 --> 00:56:05,726
and i think we're at least getting closer but like there is a great deal of work still to do

805
00:56:05,726 --> 00:56:11,686
yeah absolutely and mises wrote a really great book on the subject called the middle of the road

806
00:56:11,686 --> 00:56:16,666
leads to socialism as exactly what you're describing right if you start with one intervention

807
00:56:16,666 --> 00:56:24,386
economic consequences are that you will not get what you want and if you think that by more

808
00:56:24,386 --> 00:56:29,966
intervention you will eventually get there, then that will ultimately lead to a hardcore tyranny

809
00:56:29,966 --> 00:56:35,586
and the complete abolition of property and free markets. And that, you know, is collapse of society

810
00:56:35,586 --> 00:56:43,726
every time for obvious reasons. So yes, we need to have tools available that makes resistance

811
00:56:43,726 --> 00:56:52,446
profitable. Then it's again just economic law, right? If thievery becomes unprofitable and the

812
00:56:52,446 --> 00:56:57,826
underground free market economy is very profitable then every thief will rather quickly turn around

813
00:56:57,826 --> 00:57:04,026
and stop stealing and and start working and then because it's you know more money for him

814
00:57:04,026 --> 00:57:12,346
ultimately so and i think we we can get to the state by massively increasing the the cost of

815
00:57:12,346 --> 00:57:17,606
attack while substantially decreasing the cost of defense and that's exactly what encryption does

816
00:57:17,606 --> 00:57:24,406
literally so by deploying this broadly and widely and you know together with a bunch of other

817
00:57:24,406 --> 00:57:32,246
security culture technologies the the and if we ship these this tech via the internet to eight

818
00:57:32,246 --> 00:57:38,006
billion people right then and everyone uses it like https is a perfect example right then

819
00:57:38,006 --> 00:57:46,246
that surveillance on on this attack vector has simply stopped right like it's it just doesn't

820
00:57:46,246 --> 00:57:50,986
exist anymore there's a bunch of other ways that that you can be and are being actively surveilled

821
00:57:50,986 --> 00:57:58,426
by most modern applications but but https solved so much by by just basically google hitting the

822
00:57:58,426 --> 00:58:04,686
on switch ultimately that that tipped over the the point right but but now we are at that point

823
00:58:04,686 --> 00:58:11,266
where it's just supernatural and that will continue to happen once we build better application that

824
00:58:11,266 --> 00:58:18,046
solve more important problems easier faster cheaper and yeah then then users will come

825
00:58:18,046 --> 00:58:24,146
ultimately again we're not lacking problems like government is doing perfectly fine on the

826
00:58:24,146 --> 00:58:30,526
the problem side of the marketing narrative uh we don't need any any more on on that they could

827
00:58:30,526 --> 00:58:39,306
slow down if possible even but yeah telling people that the tools are available helping them to to

828
00:58:39,306 --> 00:58:46,366
understand and utilize these tools and ultimately spread the word is hard work but worth it and

829
00:58:46,366 --> 00:58:52,586
over a couple of havings it it absolutely makes a difference like if you look back for eight years

830
00:58:52,586 --> 00:58:59,526
etc the the progress is stunning and and sure it seems like a grind when you're in it but when you

831
00:58:59,526 --> 00:59:04,406
reach the peak and you look back down it you do realize that it's actually been quite a ride

832
00:59:04,406 --> 00:59:11,206
there's something i think about a lot which is the idea of people running toward something versus

833
00:59:11,206 --> 00:59:17,406
running away from something running toward freedom tech uh or a running toward a superior

834
00:59:17,406 --> 00:59:22,626
user experience that happens to be built atop freedom tech or running towards any you know

835
00:59:22,626 --> 00:59:27,666
you're running towards a positive right and a lot of people uh you know for instance use

836
00:59:27,666 --> 00:59:31,146
nostril as an example a lot of people have come to nostril because of that because they saw the

837
00:59:31,146 --> 00:59:35,446
potential in it. They weren't necessarily actively being censored or anything like that. In some

838
00:59:35,446 --> 00:59:39,646
cases, obviously, yes. But in other cases, it was freedom minded individuals who said, wow,

839
00:59:39,686 --> 00:59:43,466
this is a really cool thing. I'd like to be a part of this. I see where this can go. And boy,

840
00:59:43,566 --> 00:59:47,226
I would really want to, you know, when a rainy day comes, I will be very glad to have this.

841
00:59:47,266 --> 00:59:51,666
But until then, it's a lot of fun. The user experience is getting better. A lot of us ran

842
00:59:51,666 --> 00:59:58,946
toward Noster. A lot of people only get smart. My father-in-law says to me, he says, you know,

843
00:59:58,946 --> 01:00:04,526
the majority of people get smart by force, not by choice. Like you don't actually get smart

844
01:00:04,526 --> 01:00:10,326
until you are forced. We don't get smart until you have a problem. So pressing something you

845
01:00:10,326 --> 01:00:15,066
need to run away from that. You're forced to say, okay, I need to fix this. How do I fix this? I

846
01:00:15,066 --> 01:00:19,986
need to figure out this, the solution. I'm curious what your thought on that is as it relates to

847
01:00:19,986 --> 01:00:25,586
these technologies, because the other part of this is like the sad truth is that most people

848
01:00:25,586 --> 01:00:27,386
just don't give a shit about a lot of this.

849
01:00:28,146 --> 01:00:30,386
And it's sad, but it's true.

850
01:00:30,546 --> 01:00:31,946
But to your point about HTTPS,

851
01:00:32,066 --> 01:00:33,046
which is a really good one,

852
01:00:34,186 --> 01:00:35,646
people don't necessarily give a shit about it,

853
01:00:35,686 --> 01:00:36,706
but they still use it.

854
01:00:37,146 --> 01:00:38,966
So it's like, how do you bridge that gap

855
01:00:38,966 --> 01:00:41,246
where something becomes ubiquitous?

856
01:00:41,766 --> 01:00:44,266
A privacy-preserving freedom tech tool

857
01:00:44,266 --> 01:00:45,226
becomes ubiquitous

858
01:00:45,226 --> 01:00:47,566
where it's just the water people are swimming in.

859
01:00:47,626 --> 01:00:49,806
They don't even know what HTTPS stands for,

860
01:00:49,866 --> 01:00:51,566
but they see it at the front of all their URLs

861
01:00:51,566 --> 01:00:52,286
and they're using it.

862
01:00:52,666 --> 01:00:54,106
How do you get to that point?

863
01:00:54,106 --> 01:00:59,626
Does it involve people running away from something, from the totalitarian overreach because they finally just have had enough?

864
01:01:00,286 --> 01:01:05,966
Or is there a way to draw people in and have them run towards something because they're curious about it?

865
01:01:05,986 --> 01:01:07,146
They have a desire to check it out.

866
01:01:07,226 --> 01:01:08,526
They think that it might just be better.

867
01:01:08,886 --> 01:01:10,286
How do you balance that?

868
01:01:11,646 --> 01:01:13,826
Those two things are extremely important.

869
01:01:14,366 --> 01:01:19,506
But I think more important is that we control the creation of the tools.

870
01:01:20,486 --> 01:01:31,866
There's a phenomenal research paper by the Tor people from like 20 years ago called Anonymity Loves Company on network effects and privacy, something like this.

871
01:01:32,526 --> 01:01:41,526
And the gist of it is in order to achieve a high level of privacy, we need to increase the size of the crowd.

872
01:01:41,526 --> 01:01:44,986
in order to increase the size of the crowd

873
01:01:44,986 --> 01:01:47,706
a large amount of people need to behave the same

874
01:01:47,706 --> 01:01:50,326
look the same, be indistinguishable from another

875
01:01:50,326 --> 01:01:53,526
if we leave

876
01:01:53,526 --> 01:01:55,846
important decisions of how to behave

877
01:01:55,846 --> 01:01:57,046
to the end user

878
01:01:57,046 --> 01:02:00,946
he doesn't have the expertise to understand the problem

879
01:02:00,946 --> 01:02:03,586
or even know that there is a problem let alone how to solve it

880
01:02:03,586 --> 01:02:05,486
and there is no consensus

881
01:02:05,486 --> 01:02:09,046
among users and everyone will behave slightly different

882
01:02:09,046 --> 01:02:10,766
therefore we have no crowd

883
01:02:11,186 --> 01:02:12,626
Therefore, we're easy to spy upon.

884
01:02:13,646 --> 01:02:17,406
So if we do want to have a secure system,

885
01:02:18,066 --> 01:02:23,246
we need to have a system that by default enables privacy for the end user.

886
01:02:24,246 --> 01:02:28,546
Like if the user has to solve the problem, that's the wrong level.

887
01:02:29,446 --> 01:02:34,806
If the developer of the app is the guy who has to solve the problem,

888
01:02:35,066 --> 01:02:37,246
it's still not the right level because he's an app developer.

889
01:02:37,246 --> 01:02:41,306
He doesn't know about the details of cryptography and protocol design.

890
01:02:41,506 --> 01:02:45,586
So the layer up is like if the library developer,

891
01:02:46,166 --> 01:02:48,046
the tooling of the app developer,

892
01:02:48,226 --> 01:02:50,266
if this guy could fix it, that's better.

893
01:02:50,806 --> 01:02:54,106
But ultimately, if the person who implement the protocol itself

894
01:02:54,106 --> 01:02:55,826
or the cryptography,

895
01:02:56,026 --> 01:03:00,686
if they can nail down a system that is perfectly private by default

896
01:03:00,686 --> 01:03:02,986
or simply by using the tool,

897
01:03:03,426 --> 01:03:05,446
you become indistinguishable from anyone else.

898
01:03:05,446 --> 01:03:06,746
You don't need to do anything special.

899
01:03:07,246 --> 01:03:08,626
just use the tool and you're good,

900
01:03:09,346 --> 01:03:12,226
then we increase the size of the crowd substantially

901
01:03:12,226 --> 01:03:14,326
from just this one user who has no idea

902
01:03:14,326 --> 01:03:18,346
to ultimately a couple protocol designers

903
01:03:18,346 --> 01:03:19,546
who really thought about this,

904
01:03:19,606 --> 01:03:20,766
who've implemented the protocol,

905
01:03:21,146 --> 01:03:23,386
which later got faithfully implemented in libraries

906
01:03:23,386 --> 01:03:24,526
and then used in apps,

907
01:03:24,606 --> 01:03:26,806
and ultimately there's the end user using it.

908
01:03:26,846 --> 01:03:29,826
But because we established proper ethics

909
01:03:29,826 --> 01:03:31,806
at a higher point of this production cycle,

910
01:03:31,806 --> 01:03:44,985
that means that a much wider net of protection is cast over users And that is ultimately I think the way to go Like only the defaults matter

911
01:03:45,785 --> 01:03:47,765
Because most people just use the default.

912
01:03:48,405 --> 01:03:49,925
And if that is not secure,

913
01:03:50,465 --> 01:03:54,545
if the default is one of systematic theft and slavery,

914
01:03:54,765 --> 01:03:56,825
which is absolutely what we have right now,

915
01:03:57,425 --> 01:04:02,465
the default path of the human is go to school

916
01:04:02,465 --> 01:04:05,005
until you're properly indoctrinated for 25 years

917
01:04:05,005 --> 01:04:07,945
and then sit in a desk for the next 40

918
01:04:07,945 --> 01:04:09,425
and then maybe we'll let you go.

919
01:04:11,945 --> 01:04:13,165
It's so sad.

920
01:04:14,085 --> 01:04:15,045
It's horrible.

921
01:04:16,505 --> 01:04:22,145
And many people do this simply because, well, that's what we do, right?

922
01:04:22,745 --> 01:04:28,565
And that is because the people who designed the protocols

923
01:04:28,565 --> 01:04:30,825
of the civilization we're in

924
01:04:30,825 --> 01:04:34,165
did not have freedom as their guiding star.

925
01:04:34,485 --> 01:04:36,105
They had power and control,

926
01:04:36,425 --> 01:04:37,265
especially control,

927
01:04:37,765 --> 01:04:40,545
in what they optimized the system for.

928
01:04:40,945 --> 01:04:43,065
And the system is behaving as designed.

929
01:04:43,205 --> 01:04:44,865
It is very much according to specification.

930
01:04:46,025 --> 01:04:47,805
It's just the initial goal

931
01:04:47,805 --> 01:04:48,965
of the people working on this

932
01:04:48,965 --> 01:04:50,345
was truly flawed.

933
01:04:51,305 --> 01:04:53,305
And so by first of all re-examining

934
01:04:53,305 --> 01:04:56,165
what should be the founding principles,

935
01:04:56,365 --> 01:04:57,165
the guidelines,

936
01:04:57,165 --> 01:05:01,325
the solid foundations that a big project should rest upon,

937
01:05:02,365 --> 01:05:07,445
in my opinion that's individual sovereignty, freedom, property rights, privacy, etc.,

938
01:05:07,445 --> 01:05:16,185
that is extremely important to shape the real human life of a large amount of people.

939
01:05:16,525 --> 01:05:20,805
And so by stepping up and building the tools,

940
01:05:20,805 --> 01:05:24,105
we have a chance of putting this better ethos

941
01:05:24,105 --> 01:05:28,285
at the heart of these systems.

942
01:05:29,005 --> 01:05:32,725
And ultimately that will affect a large amount of people.

943
01:05:33,465 --> 01:05:34,565
It's just hard.

944
01:05:34,985 --> 01:05:36,445
It's really, really hard.

945
01:05:36,685 --> 01:05:38,305
And it takes a lot of time and effort

946
01:05:38,305 --> 01:05:39,325
and a lot of people

947
01:05:39,325 --> 01:05:41,405
and much more than just programmers.

948
01:05:42,225 --> 01:05:43,405
So if you're listening to this

949
01:05:43,405 --> 01:05:45,585
and you want to fix the status quo

950
01:05:45,585 --> 01:05:46,765
and you want to fix the default,

951
01:05:46,945 --> 01:05:48,785
then step up and build Freedom Tech.

952
01:05:48,865 --> 01:05:49,625
That's actually good.

953
01:05:50,805 --> 01:05:52,805
I say amen to that.

954
01:05:53,205 --> 01:05:58,065
It gets back to that idea that the purpose of a system is what it does, right?

955
01:05:58,645 --> 01:06:03,945
Like you want to know what the purpose, you know, yes, it's a little tongue in cheek almost in many ways,

956
01:06:04,025 --> 01:06:08,145
but it's broadly, I think, very applicable because what it gets down to is like,

957
01:06:08,725 --> 01:06:11,825
it gets down to what you said at a protocol level, right?

958
01:06:11,825 --> 01:06:19,965
And if the incentives and the values of whoever designed that protocol warp it in some way,

959
01:06:19,965 --> 01:06:38,865
Like, like fiat is ultimately, you can think of it as its own sort of protocol, right? Like all of the, you can, you can use protocol in a fairly liberal, uh, liberal way here. Like you want to know what the purpose of fiat is. Just, just look around you that like, that's the purpose. Like it's what's happening. It's what it does. It's what, what is the result?

960
01:06:38,865 --> 01:06:48,205
And to the point about just in indoctrination, this is something I have a very vested interest in now, just having a young son.

961
01:06:48,205 --> 01:06:55,065
And also as somebody who was, I was homeschooled myself and I'm forever grateful, ever more grateful to my, uh, my mother and father for doing that.

962
01:06:55,125 --> 01:07:07,905
A little more work on my mom's side, but a grateful to both of them very much, uh, just for being great parents and for, for homeschooling, because it's not easy, especially at that time when you don't just have, uh, you don't have the internet was not, uh, then what it is now.

963
01:07:07,905 --> 01:07:12,425
The tools that exist then were not at all what they are now.

964
01:07:13,485 --> 01:07:19,905
But the modern public school system is truly a system of indoctrination.

965
01:07:20,585 --> 01:07:28,805
And it's based on this Neo-Prussian model that was then adopted by Adolf Hitler, famously with compulsory public schools,

966
01:07:28,925 --> 01:07:35,185
which for some reason are – it's like the one vestige of Hitler that Germany has decided to keep is compulsory public schooling.

967
01:07:35,285 --> 01:07:36,005
Homeschooling is illegal.

968
01:07:36,005 --> 01:07:41,665
can't imagine why they decided to keep that one bit you know but hey apparently they liked that

969
01:07:41,665 --> 01:07:46,805
bit about it but but it's insane it's like you you know you want to know why things don't change

970
01:07:46,805 --> 01:07:52,465
uh like in any meaningful level from within the system it's because like the system is doing

971
01:07:52,465 --> 01:07:58,085
exactly what it's designed to do what it's designed to do is continue to perpetuate itself

972
01:07:58,085 --> 01:08:02,565
and it can only perpetuate itself if it can maintain the status quo if it can ensure that

973
01:08:02,565 --> 01:08:08,625
each new generation of, you know, a bright and sparkling young minds are systematically,

974
01:08:08,945 --> 01:08:14,905
you know, beaten into mental submission, robbed of any and all creativity, robbed of

975
01:08:14,905 --> 01:08:19,305
any fire that they might have to say, you know what, fuck this.

976
01:08:19,345 --> 01:08:19,905
I'm done.

977
01:08:20,245 --> 01:08:21,225
This doesn't make any sense.

978
01:08:21,285 --> 01:08:22,225
I don't like this anymore.

979
01:08:22,445 --> 01:08:24,025
Like, I don't want to be a part of this.

980
01:08:24,885 --> 01:08:29,885
They, it, that needs to happen because otherwise if you had a, I mean, too many kids start

981
01:08:29,885 --> 01:08:33,525
getting homeschooled and there's going to be far too many free thinkers. It's going to be,

982
01:08:33,645 --> 01:08:38,165
it's going to be a huge problem for the state. So if you're able homeschool your kids, um,

983
01:08:38,265 --> 01:08:43,045
but, uh, I digress, but there are so many tools available now. It's amazing. Like you can like

984
01:08:43,045 --> 01:08:48,765
technology, the internet is a magical, magical thing that enables so many people to do so much

985
01:08:48,765 --> 01:08:53,705
more with so much less. But I think you're spot on with the kind of call to action there about

986
01:08:53,705 --> 01:08:58,665
like, you can just build things like, and if you can't build, I think you are such a great example

987
01:08:58,665 --> 01:09:03,725
of this, Max, because you said it yourself, you're not a developer. You're not a coder,

988
01:09:03,805 --> 01:09:08,265
but you've been able to, you've contributed to so many different Freedom Tech projects over the

989
01:09:08,265 --> 01:09:13,745
years, like so many. I don't even know if you have count, but you've been able to do that without,

990
01:09:13,865 --> 01:09:17,365
you know, without writing code because there are other ways you can contribute. There's so many

991
01:09:17,365 --> 01:09:21,405
other things that need to be done. Like, and you don't just have to start a podcast either. You

992
01:09:21,405 --> 01:09:28,425
can do so many other things. You should also start a podcast. Absolutely. 100%. Everyone should,

993
01:09:28,425 --> 01:09:32,325
start a podcast. If you're listening to this right now, why aren't you starting a podcast?

994
01:09:33,145 --> 01:09:38,005
But it's a beautiful thing that we have these ways to contribute. Wait, sorry, what'd you say?

995
01:09:38,465 --> 01:09:43,805
That's every podcast horse tells himself that. It's like, yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm doing my part.

996
01:09:43,945 --> 01:09:48,625
I'm doing my part. But, but really like what we're dealing with at a certain point comes down to just

997
01:09:48,625 --> 01:09:54,285
a, uh, a messaging game, a communication game, an information game. And the information sphere

998
01:09:54,285 --> 01:10:00,505
is so saturated with garbage. There's so much noise that we need more signal. We need more

999
01:10:00,505 --> 01:10:05,705
people who have that signal within them and are capable of amplifying it to do so. Because like

1000
01:10:05,705 --> 01:10:10,045
that, you know, it's like, it's not the whole field of dreams thing. If you build it, they will

1001
01:10:10,045 --> 01:10:13,765
come. Like it doesn't, it doesn't matter if you build freedom tech that nobody knows about and

1002
01:10:13,765 --> 01:10:17,805
nobody uses. Like people have to know about it. People have to use it. You have to go out there

1003
01:10:17,805 --> 01:10:23,265
and do the work. And a lot of that work, you know, the developers are, you know, who build it are

1004
01:10:23,265 --> 01:10:28,625
oftentimes not always the greatest at promoting it themselves and that's where there's so much

1005
01:10:28,625 --> 01:10:33,965
room for other people to step in who may not be non-technical to come in and do uh do that other

1006
01:10:33,965 --> 01:10:38,265
work that you know you can't code the developer maybe isn't doesn't want to do the promotion

1007
01:10:38,265 --> 01:10:42,145
that's a match made in heaven right there you know that that's your uh that's your

1008
01:10:42,145 --> 01:10:49,005
Wozniak in jobs essentially yeah yeah yeah like your goal as a non-developer is basically that you

1009
01:10:49,005 --> 01:10:53,265
can keep the other devs in the development cave.

1010
01:10:53,925 --> 01:10:56,385
Like, your task is to keep them in

1011
01:10:56,385 --> 01:10:58,865
to make sure they don't escape for, like, reasons,

1012
01:10:59,225 --> 01:11:01,005
like, you know, getting water or something.

1013
01:11:01,065 --> 01:11:01,865
Just bring it to them.

1014
01:11:02,385 --> 01:11:04,325
And then they can do their deving thing.

1015
01:11:04,885 --> 01:11:07,545
And you just do the other stuff that needs to be done.

1016
01:11:08,245 --> 01:11:10,365
And, you know, it's not that hard.

1017
01:11:10,365 --> 01:11:12,105
It's actually quite chill.

1018
01:11:13,145 --> 01:11:15,885
And, like, ultimately, I just talk to people.

1019
01:11:15,985 --> 01:11:17,205
That's basically my job.

1020
01:11:17,205 --> 01:11:19,425
and that's a pretty good job

1021
01:11:19,425 --> 01:11:23,245
it helps that you're good at it too

1022
01:11:23,245 --> 01:11:23,725
you know

1023
01:11:23,725 --> 01:11:25,425
but that's the thing

1024
01:11:25,425 --> 01:11:26,905
you get good at it with practice

1025
01:11:26,905 --> 01:11:27,585
right I mean if you

1026
01:11:27,585 --> 01:11:29,025
if you look at my early videos

1027
01:11:29,025 --> 01:11:30,245
they were shit obviously

1028
01:11:30,245 --> 01:11:32,265
and you know

1029
01:11:32,265 --> 01:11:34,765
they get hopefully a bit better

1030
01:11:34,765 --> 01:11:38,065
but it would be astonishing if not

1031
01:11:38,065 --> 01:11:39,385
right if you really do something

1032
01:11:39,385 --> 01:11:40,545
for a thousand hours or more

1033
01:11:40,545 --> 01:11:41,665
you'll

1034
01:11:41,665 --> 01:11:43,605
you'll no longer be shit

1035
01:11:43,605 --> 01:11:57,204
yeah I mean yeah If you do something for a thousand hours for more and you are still shit at it like maybe there something wrong with how you been doing it Like you may you may want to you may want to reevaluate that a little bit but I think by and large

1036
01:11:57,204 --> 01:12:01,404
it's like, it's, it's almost impossible to do something over and over and over and over again

1037
01:12:01,404 --> 01:12:07,204
and not improve at it. Like, unless you are just truly like perhaps so convinced of your own

1038
01:12:07,204 --> 01:12:12,424
aptitude that you don't see the areas where there are needs for improvement perhaps,

1039
01:12:12,424 --> 01:12:16,844
but otherwise like you should be able to meaningfully improve in just about anything

1040
01:12:16,844 --> 01:12:21,044
that you are doing over and over and over and over again i hope and the cool thing with division

1041
01:12:21,044 --> 01:12:26,504
of labor is that you don't have to be the best compared to others you just have to focus on that

1042
01:12:26,504 --> 01:12:32,924
that you want to work on most ultimately like and that's pretty cool like you know devs are

1043
01:12:32,924 --> 01:12:37,864
crazy nerds that literally prefer staring on their computer screen for like 20 hours

1044
01:12:37,864 --> 01:12:44,844
more than i don't know walking out in the park or weird people they exist but like let them be in

1045
01:12:44,844 --> 01:12:50,344
the cave you know if if you need to do some calls coordinating stuff and you can take a walk in the

1046
01:12:50,344 --> 01:12:58,104
park while doing it you know like you prefer that the other guy prefers that like just trade and

1047
01:12:58,104 --> 01:13:06,364
conquer yeah well it's a again like you without the the devs who are willing to go in that hole

1048
01:13:06,364 --> 01:13:09,744
and who like to go in that hole and solve problems

1049
01:13:09,744 --> 01:13:12,644
and write the code that actually will be the underpinnings

1050
01:13:12,644 --> 01:13:16,524
of the world that is to come, none of it exists, right?

1051
01:13:17,204 --> 01:13:19,884
You necessarily need that first.

1052
01:13:20,024 --> 01:13:21,084
And then once you have that, though,

1053
01:13:21,404 --> 01:13:23,464
it's about how do we get that in front of as many people as possible?

1054
01:13:23,464 --> 01:13:25,464
And you've got the rare breeds like Callie,

1055
01:13:25,584 --> 01:13:29,604
who are capable of both writing the code

1056
01:13:29,604 --> 01:13:31,384
and going out and promoting it very well.

1057
01:13:31,764 --> 01:13:35,344
But Callie is, I think, a very special breed in that case.

1058
01:13:35,344 --> 01:13:42,644
yeah yeah definitely and that's the other thing like you can you can find a couple areas that if

1059
01:13:42,644 --> 01:13:47,044
you specialize yourself in in a small niche you could actually become one of the greatest

1060
01:13:47,044 --> 01:13:55,204
on on this planet in in this niche right if you pick it well and maybe you can do this in two or

1061
01:13:55,204 --> 01:14:03,584
even three areas or probably not 50 but if if you find a collection of really important skills that

1062
01:14:03,584 --> 01:14:09,244
you get really really good at and that in combination they become very impressive right

1063
01:14:09,244 --> 01:14:14,984
then then that's a that's crazy powerful right there there's a few other people like for example

1064
01:14:14,984 --> 01:14:21,704
austrian economics and like computer science or computer engineering right those are two

1065
01:14:21,704 --> 01:14:28,424
niches right they're incredibly broad rabbit holes after all but there's you know there's few that

1066
01:14:28,424 --> 01:14:34,964
have mastered any one of these but very much fewer that have mastered both like i i count

1067
01:14:34,964 --> 01:14:40,984
maybe two or three people that have actually mastered computer science and uh austrian economics

1068
01:14:40,984 --> 01:14:45,384
by the way one of them is eric voscue he wrote crypto economics the best book on bitcoin

1069
01:14:45,384 --> 01:14:52,124
the other is lucas antivero like warrior at wasabi wallet um since since the early days

1070
01:14:52,124 --> 01:15:00,224
like and that's about it like they are like so sharp in in both of these areas and that's

1071
01:15:00,224 --> 01:15:08,264
incredibly rare to find and now imagine you have you have this genius right but i don't know he has

1072
01:15:08,264 --> 01:15:14,264
to waste time booking his flights and getting a hotel to come to a conference or something right

1073
01:15:14,264 --> 01:15:20,424
like he's the genius he should be painting the the like the portrait on on the ceiling

1074
01:15:20,424 --> 01:15:26,524
let him do that and and get him an assistant you know someone who was definitely not a master coder

1075
01:15:26,524 --> 01:15:31,424
to do the administrative stuff you know to clean the toilets in the spaceship

1076
01:15:31,424 --> 01:15:34,564
so that he can you know continue building the spaceship

1077
01:15:34,564 --> 01:15:43,604
it's true and it's like we again this is where like i'm i'm so happy to see all of these different

1078
01:15:43,604 --> 01:15:47,644
grant foundations pop up and i know people have like different thoughts on this and right now

1079
01:15:47,644 --> 01:15:51,684
it's particularly contentious about which dev should be getting funded and which shouldn't but

1080
01:15:51,684 --> 01:15:59,504
it's like i think these organizations like open sets as a prime example like uh hrf gives out a

1081
01:15:59,504 --> 01:16:04,104
lot of grants as well too right this is like this is fantastic like because that genuinely just

1082
01:16:04,104 --> 01:16:09,064
frees people up to do what they do best which is build and there and there is so much time that is

1083
01:16:09,064 --> 01:16:15,704
lost in the minutia of just figuring out inconsequential shit but that shit that needs

1084
01:16:15,704 --> 01:16:20,964
to be done. Right. But it's like, it's not what those types of people should need to focus their

1085
01:16:20,964 --> 01:16:25,204
time on. Like we, and the fact that there are patrons out there already, like we actually,

1086
01:16:25,324 --> 01:16:28,084
we were talking about patronage earlier. Like, will this come back? It's like,

1087
01:16:28,144 --> 01:16:32,784
in many ways that actually is what organizations like open sets are like, that is a form of,

1088
01:16:32,804 --> 01:16:36,404
you know, of a very kind of decentralized patronage where you're, you know, bringing

1089
01:16:36,404 --> 01:16:40,444
in patrons from a lot of different areas, obviously, and then having a, a group decide

1090
01:16:40,444 --> 01:16:44,544
how to allocate that. But that, I mean, that is patronage basically. And like, so I guess we're,

1091
01:16:44,544 --> 01:16:45,684
Again, the future is here.

1092
01:16:45,764 --> 01:16:47,764
It's just not evenly distributed yet once again.

1093
01:16:49,124 --> 01:16:52,204
Yeah, and as you say, these funding organizations are amazing,

1094
01:16:52,404 --> 01:16:55,684
but they do come with a risk that they can rug pull the funding

1095
01:16:55,684 --> 01:16:59,624
for whatever reason and potentially even threaten people with that.

1096
01:16:59,664 --> 01:17:02,504
It's actually quite common in philanthropy and so on.

1097
01:17:04,344 --> 01:17:07,144
So one of the other things a non-developer can do

1098
01:17:07,144 --> 01:17:10,744
is actually find and develop and integrate a business model.

1099
01:17:10,744 --> 01:17:16,204
right like developers should be sorry the users should be funding the developers in the best case

1100
01:17:16,204 --> 01:17:21,084
right users are the ones that get massive benefits of using the app otherwise they wouldn't use it

1101
01:17:21,084 --> 01:17:27,124
so they have an incentive to chip in a little bit you know not too much per user but it will sum up

1102
01:17:27,124 --> 01:17:32,184
to a decent amount and and then that means more devs can focus more time on making the app better

1103
01:17:32,184 --> 01:17:38,464
so it's a it's a nice beautiful feedback loop now that we have magic internet money finding a

1104
01:17:38,464 --> 01:17:45,664
business model in cyberspace has become ridiculously easy like you we can literally

1105
01:17:45,664 --> 01:17:50,024
write the code that takes the money from the user and puts it to to the devs right like it's

1106
01:17:50,024 --> 01:17:57,564
that's like two lines of code you can vibe it by now and and so designing this business model we

1107
01:17:57,564 --> 01:18:02,544
have so much more opportunities now and there are so many bitcoin projects or freedom tech projects

1108
01:18:02,544 --> 01:18:07,304
that have amazing developers, really passionate UX designers and so on.

1109
01:18:08,204 --> 01:18:12,964
And they just need a little bit of help of actually convincing users

1110
01:18:12,964 --> 01:18:14,484
that this is worth paying for.

1111
01:18:15,284 --> 01:18:21,604
And then managing this whole enterprise to make sure it scales to more developers and so on.

1112
01:18:22,044 --> 01:18:27,844
These are incredibly important tasks where you don't need to be a specialist engineer or anything.

1113
01:18:27,844 --> 01:18:34,764
like sure help sense it helps if you have some entrepreneurial experience etc but you can learn

1114
01:18:34,764 --> 01:18:39,064
those easily like this is just a learning by doing thing and if you really want to help just

1115
01:18:39,064 --> 01:18:44,224
do stuff like that for a cool project that you're already using scratch your own itch right if you

1116
01:18:44,224 --> 01:18:49,244
have if you have an app you know it's valuable because you you're using it and you see how it

1117
01:18:49,244 --> 01:18:54,464
could be way better than it currently is there's like 10 bugs that you know and 50 feature requests

1118
01:18:54,464 --> 01:19:00,544
you would have that's perfect just be annoying and start writing the developers all the time and

1119
01:19:00,544 --> 01:19:06,784
join their public calls and their chat rooms etc and hang out and be helpful and ask what you can do

1120
01:19:06,784 --> 01:19:12,344
that they don't want to do and you know eventually you're part of the team and

1121
01:19:12,344 --> 01:19:17,264
now cleaning the toilets on the spaceship you know it's a kind of shitty job but at least you're on

1122
01:19:17,264 --> 01:19:23,404
the spaceship like that's that's a big deal it's true and the other beautiful thing is just

1123
01:19:23,404 --> 01:19:31,584
the barriers to funding developers whose work you like or find valuable,

1124
01:19:31,824 --> 01:19:33,664
those barriers have actually never been lower.

1125
01:19:34,084 --> 01:19:36,944
I think Nostra is such a great example of this.

1126
01:19:37,044 --> 01:19:39,704
Obviously, Bitcoin already made it so much easier,

1127
01:19:40,004 --> 01:19:42,884
especially if you're trying to fund a developer who's in Africa,

1128
01:19:43,084 --> 01:19:45,064
who's in Asia, and you're sitting here in the US.

1129
01:19:45,064 --> 01:19:47,964
That can be hard to do in the fiat system or impossible,

1130
01:19:48,164 --> 01:19:50,004
depending on what specific jurisdiction.

1131
01:19:50,124 --> 01:19:51,024
Are there sanctions to it?

1132
01:19:51,024 --> 01:19:54,304
Like, I know, so Bitcoin fixed basically all of that.

1133
01:19:55,084 --> 01:20:05,863
But Noster fixes that discovery layer of it as well which I think is so beautiful Like if you listening to this right now like go just find a dev you like and just go give them a zap Like you can just do that

1134
01:20:06,283 --> 01:20:08,143
You can just go zap a dev right now.

1135
01:20:08,343 --> 01:20:09,143
It's a beautiful thing.

1136
01:20:09,263 --> 01:20:18,443
You can, there's also, you know, through multiple of the different Noster clients, you can, you know, actively, I think at least I use Domus because I'm an iPhone user and I use Primal.

1137
01:20:18,823 --> 01:20:22,483
And on Domus, you can allocate a certain percentage.

1138
01:20:22,483 --> 01:20:25,603
whatever zap you send, you can like add an additional percentage on top that you say,

1139
01:20:25,683 --> 01:20:30,363
I want, I want for each zap I send, I want to add, you know, whatever, 10%, 20% additionally

1140
01:20:30,363 --> 01:20:31,983
that I want to go to the dev team.

1141
01:20:32,483 --> 01:20:34,983
Or, you know, you can pay, you can call it crazy.

1142
01:20:35,443 --> 01:20:39,903
You know, you can, you can pay for like a premium subscription to one of these things.

1143
01:20:40,103 --> 01:20:44,343
And maybe, maybe you don't think that that's worth it, but like, I don't know, for me,

1144
01:20:44,383 --> 01:20:49,423
it's, it's worth it to at least do a small thing to be able to, to give value for value.

1145
01:20:49,423 --> 01:20:56,663
Like people talk a lot about value for value, but it only works if people do it and people do it at scale.

1146
01:20:56,783 --> 01:21:03,563
And I'm not even talking about the scale of individual contributions, but the scale of the total number of people who are engaging in that value for value model.

1147
01:21:03,623 --> 01:21:04,923
Because I think that it can work.

1148
01:21:05,763 --> 01:21:09,783
Right now it's, you know, perhaps the pool is too small to draw from.

1149
01:21:10,603 --> 01:21:14,123
But like, you know, with each zap, you make that pool a little bit bigger.

1150
01:21:14,563 --> 01:21:15,603
That's a beautiful thing.

1151
01:21:16,223 --> 01:21:16,543
Exactly.

1152
01:21:16,543 --> 01:21:22,543
One other cool trick is you can make it that the post that you write, the zaps actually go to someone else.

1153
01:21:23,243 --> 01:21:32,683
So one cool thing is, like, if you want to help out a project, make a cool post about, you know, why the app is great and how to use it.

1154
01:21:32,923 --> 01:21:40,403
And add the lightning address of the developer into the note, send it, and maybe a couple thousand zaps get put together.

1155
01:21:40,403 --> 01:21:44,663
and it's like the developer gets not just marketing,

1156
01:21:44,903 --> 01:21:46,823
but he gets paid for someone else's marketing.

1157
01:21:47,023 --> 01:21:49,723
So like that's a good deal, right?

1158
01:21:49,743 --> 01:21:50,803
And that's something you can do.

1159
01:21:51,783 --> 01:21:53,003
It is really cool.

1160
01:21:53,123 --> 01:21:56,283
Like the friction has decreased exponentially

1161
01:21:56,283 --> 01:22:00,283
and there's just so many cool things being built right now.

1162
01:22:00,403 --> 01:22:01,083
I love to see it.

1163
01:22:01,463 --> 01:22:02,683
I want to be conscious of your time here

1164
01:22:02,683 --> 01:22:04,443
because I know we're running up against it

1165
01:22:04,443 --> 01:22:06,663
a little bit of our 90 minutes.

1166
01:22:06,663 --> 01:22:10,043
It flies by every time we get to chatting, Max.

1167
01:22:10,403 --> 01:22:11,963
It's been a treat to have you here.

1168
01:22:12,523 --> 01:22:15,923
Is there anything you want to leave folks with or anything we didn't cover

1169
01:22:15,923 --> 01:22:18,023
or any projects that you want to give a shout-out to

1170
01:22:18,023 --> 01:22:21,763
that people should go check out that you're particularly interested in?

1171
01:22:23,223 --> 01:22:25,143
There's so many cool projects.

1172
01:22:25,143 --> 01:22:29,823
And I'm trying to always shill different projects each time.

1173
01:22:30,503 --> 01:22:33,723
So far, I have not run out of ones, which is good.

1174
01:22:34,263 --> 01:22:38,903
But one that was on my mind today is an incredible steel engraver

1175
01:22:38,903 --> 01:22:42,803
for your private keys called the seed hammer.

1176
01:22:43,443 --> 01:22:46,123
It's an open source hardware and firmware

1177
01:22:46,123 --> 01:22:49,783
with 3D printed, do-it-yourself standardized parts.

1178
01:22:50,523 --> 01:22:54,443
And you can engrave on like a small steel plate,

1179
01:22:54,723 --> 01:22:55,363
whatever you want.

1180
01:22:55,943 --> 01:22:57,883
It can be your 12 words.

1181
01:22:58,283 --> 01:23:00,283
It can be your password to your password manager.

1182
01:23:00,803 --> 01:23:04,103
It can be a QR code to your output descriptor

1183
01:23:04,103 --> 01:23:05,883
of your multi-signature, right?

1184
01:23:06,143 --> 01:23:07,763
Steel engraved QR codes.

1185
01:23:07,763 --> 01:23:09,463
That sounds really interesting all of a sudden.

1186
01:23:10,103 --> 01:23:15,123
It could actually be a Shamir secret share QR code of any arbitrary text that you want.

1187
01:23:15,523 --> 01:23:19,523
So you need to have like three out of five steel plates in order to get to your secrets.

1188
01:23:20,243 --> 01:23:26,303
So once the robots do our steel backups for us, we can do all types of cool things in steel.

1189
01:23:26,603 --> 01:23:27,783
So I'm really bullish on that one.

1190
01:23:28,643 --> 01:23:30,303
I have not heard of that one.

1191
01:23:30,423 --> 01:23:31,463
That is really neat.

1192
01:23:31,563 --> 01:23:32,623
I'm going to have to check that out.

1193
01:23:32,663 --> 01:23:34,763
You said it's totally like they open sourced it as well?

1194
01:23:35,603 --> 01:23:35,963
Exactly.

1195
01:23:35,963 --> 01:23:43,043
So this all kind of started out with the seed signer where you needed a QR code of the private key.

1196
01:23:43,803 --> 01:23:46,743
And so we were drawing them on a piece of paper by hand.

1197
01:23:47,383 --> 01:23:50,823
And I was starting to think, hey, is it actually possible to do this on steel?

1198
01:23:50,983 --> 01:23:53,883
Like would a camera read a QR code that's in steel?

1199
01:23:54,483 --> 01:23:59,403
And like some guys in Switzerland went and just did it.

1200
01:23:59,503 --> 01:24:03,743
They kind of created a manual hole punch for checking if it's actually possible.

1201
01:24:03,743 --> 01:24:06,663
And it turns out, yes, you can absolutely scan a steel QR code.

1202
01:24:07,783 --> 01:24:13,343
And so people started selling those hand stamps and so on to punch into steel.

1203
01:24:13,463 --> 01:24:15,223
But it takes a lot of time.

1204
01:24:15,383 --> 01:24:18,723
It's super easy to make a mistake, especially with a QR code.

1205
01:24:18,783 --> 01:24:21,103
That's just not a thing humans create.

1206
01:24:21,423 --> 01:24:25,083
That's a computer thing to do, both to write and to read a QR code.

1207
01:24:25,483 --> 01:24:28,163
So humans are really bad at doing this consistently correct,

1208
01:24:28,683 --> 01:24:30,003
and it just takes too much time.

1209
01:24:30,003 --> 01:24:33,583
and if we want to make really complex things

1210
01:24:33,583 --> 01:24:35,643
like an output descriptor that's like next level

1211
01:24:35,643 --> 01:24:37,443
even more difficult than just words

1212
01:24:37,443 --> 01:24:41,323
so let's the robot do it for us

1213
01:24:41,323 --> 01:24:43,663
and they found this on Alibaba

1214
01:24:43,663 --> 01:24:45,823
this like Chinese steel engraver

1215
01:24:45,823 --> 01:24:49,263
that they could plug in the Seed Signer

1216
01:24:49,263 --> 01:24:51,223
as a kind of management computer

1217
01:24:51,223 --> 01:24:53,163
but it's just kind of weird

1218
01:24:53,163 --> 01:24:56,923
to buy this Alibaba machine overpriced

1219
01:24:56,923 --> 01:25:01,483
to back up your multi-generational wealth.

1220
01:25:02,363 --> 01:25:03,223
So ultimately they're like,

1221
01:25:03,283 --> 01:25:05,263
yeah, we can do it from scratch.

1222
01:25:05,643 --> 01:25:07,483
Let's just design the entire hardware,

1223
01:25:08,063 --> 01:25:10,163
the PCB board, the mechanics, everything.

1224
01:25:11,023 --> 01:25:13,383
And two years later, they're basically done.

1225
01:25:14,283 --> 01:25:16,563
So really cool to see that project develop

1226
01:25:16,563 --> 01:25:19,683
and really happy that they're actually selling

1227
01:25:19,683 --> 01:25:20,443
and shipping it now.

1228
01:25:22,083 --> 01:25:24,063
I'm stoked to go check this out.

1229
01:25:24,103 --> 01:25:24,803
That sounds awesome.

1230
01:25:24,803 --> 01:25:26,903
I'll link your towards

1231
01:25:26,903 --> 01:25:28,563
towards Liberty.com

1232
01:25:28,563 --> 01:25:30,243
as your general site right for

1233
01:25:30,243 --> 01:25:32,423
a lot of your stuff and then I'll link your

1234
01:25:32,423 --> 01:25:33,823
end pub as well of course

1235
01:25:33,823 --> 01:25:36,563
but Max it's been a treat to have you on here

1236
01:25:36,563 --> 01:25:37,803
man it was good to catch up

1237
01:25:37,803 --> 01:25:39,263
any final words

1238
01:25:39,263 --> 01:25:42,243
yeah thanks Walker for the

1239
01:25:42,243 --> 01:25:44,643
continued advice I'm happy to be back on the show

1240
01:25:44,643 --> 01:25:46,463
it was good hanging

1241
01:25:46,463 --> 01:25:48,423
in person with you and Carla that's always nice

1242
01:25:48,423 --> 01:25:50,463
and the final

1243
01:25:50,463 --> 01:25:52,703
words is just go out there and build stuff

1244
01:25:52,703 --> 01:25:54,463
if you're listening to this pod

1245
01:25:54,463 --> 01:25:56,643
I mean, that's the thing with these Bitcoin podcasts.

1246
01:25:56,823 --> 01:25:58,703
It feels like we're preaching to the choir.

1247
01:25:59,023 --> 01:26:02,363
Like, you know you should be working on Freedom Tech.

1248
01:26:02,683 --> 01:26:05,623
We know that you know that you should be working on Freedom Tech.

1249
01:26:05,963 --> 01:26:07,463
And you know that we know that you know.

1250
01:26:07,603 --> 01:26:11,223
So, like, all things, you should basically just be working on Freedom Tech.

1251
01:26:11,443 --> 01:26:13,223
Like, that's the gist of the story.

1252
01:26:14,443 --> 01:26:15,563
You have approval.

1253
01:26:15,923 --> 01:26:19,343
Like, the official Bitcoin podcast told you to work on Freedom Tech.

1254
01:26:20,183 --> 01:26:21,443
Full endorsement.

1255
01:26:22,383 --> 01:26:24,043
You can tell your mom it's fine.

1256
01:26:24,463 --> 01:26:33,523
some guys on the internet said so and and therefore just you're going to do that now

1257
01:26:33,523 --> 01:26:40,203
and it's going to be glorious that's a that is a perfect note to end on uh yeah you can just do

1258
01:26:40,203 --> 01:26:44,723
things especially when a podcast tells you to that's the best time and you should start a podcast

1259
01:26:44,723 --> 01:26:49,403
on that note max great chatting you man thanks to everybody who joined in on the

1260
01:26:49,403 --> 01:26:51,183
Noster livestream as well.

1261
01:26:51,363 --> 01:26:53,463
Appreciate you guys. Thank you for the zaps.

1262
01:26:53,563 --> 01:26:55,183
You know I will be paying them forward in

1263
01:26:55,183 --> 01:26:57,263
696 sat increments.

1264
01:26:57,443 --> 01:26:59,063
So thank you guys. Thank you, Max.

1265
01:26:59,463 --> 01:27:01,483
It was great hanging. See you on the next one,

1266
01:27:01,483 --> 01:27:01,703
Walker.

1267
01:27:10,303 --> 01:27:13,543
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode

1268
01:27:13,543 --> 01:27:15,163
of The Bitcoin Podcast.

1269
01:27:15,803 --> 01:27:17,623
Remember to subscribe to this

1270
01:27:17,623 --> 01:27:22,663
podcast wherever you're watching or listening and share it with your friends, family, and

1271
01:27:22,663 --> 01:27:28,783
strangers on the internet. Find me on Noster at primal.net slash Walker and this podcast at

1272
01:27:28,783 --> 01:27:35,823
primal.net slash titcoin on X YouTube and rumble. Just search at Walker America and find this

1273
01:27:35,823 --> 01:27:42,163
podcast on X and Instagram at titcoin podcast. Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links,

1274
01:27:42,163 --> 01:27:47,823
head to substack.com slash at Walker America to get episodes emailed to you and head to

1275
01:27:47,823 --> 01:27:56,143
Bitcoin podcast.net for everything else. Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant. So thank you

1276
01:27:56,143 --> 01:28:03,563
for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast. Until next time, stay free.