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I have a lot of respect for the passion and the philosophy and the ideas behind a lot of people that subscribe to the Knott's camp, right?

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But I think the problem is they think they're in a camp, right?

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I just said they're in a camp.

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But really, the way I see it is unless they're willing to reject the block, we're all on the same team.

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And they actually, you know, we're actually just all Bitcoiners.

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Whether they think there's, you know, this core Knott's debate or not, your relay policy doesn't make you a different Bitcoiner, right?

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Your consensus policy mainly does.

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So you can have all the philosophy you want.

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That makes you a Bitcoiner.

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Guess what?

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You're not going to have the same philosophy as me.

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That's okay.

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We have the same consensus rules.

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Your relay policy doesn't make you in a different camp than me,

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even though we're sort of dividing it out that way.

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And it's been pretty contentious.

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I almost wonder if like every X amount of years,

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there just needs to be a churn where people get radically like dunked into cold water on what Bitcoin is.

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and like their perception of Bitcoin

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like just needs to be like completely obliterated

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and their mind just needs to melt.

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And if this is just one of those events,

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if you really push people to explain what Bitcoin is

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and what they want to use it for

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and ideals behind it and philosophy,

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I think what people will find is

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many people are out on little islands of thought

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that are sort of independent.

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Like we all, we are all on the main channel,

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but we sort of diverge slightly

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on subtle things here and there.

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And a lot of us have unique perspectives

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on what Bitcoin is

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and what makes Bitcoin endangered

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to being destroyed

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or what is a boogeyman of Bitcoin

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or stuff like this.

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My opinion is pretty radical, I would say.

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I'm of the opinion where Bitcoin can survive

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ebbs and flows of terrible situations

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of censorship, centralization,

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and actually come out of it

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and on the other side of it

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still as a usable system

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that can course correct and become more of a freedom money and freedom data ledger.

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So I think it's sort of this really fascinating technology that can actually be co-opted and be

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corrupted and recover because of the proof of work, essentially, and because of the people

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incentivized to be good stewards of the network. So I'm even of the opinion where if something

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really bizarre happens and there only becomes one mining pool, that Bitcoin could survive that

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pretty easily, even though that would be like a doomsday situation for a lot of people if mining

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was completely centralized. I actually, because I truly believe in the game theory this strongly,

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I think that it would even get to the point where that miner would be incentivized to be a good

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steward because the ultimate thing that people can do is vote with their feet and vote with their

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nodes via this crazy idea of a UASF, which I don't think is a good idea, but it is a nuclear option

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for absolutely terrible situations.

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And I think ultimately the pleb move that is measurable,

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not just running a node,

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which in my opinion is a unknown variable of impact,

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the measurable impact that is deterministic,

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however small or however big is voting with your feet.

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You sell your coins.

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I would love if we could talk about what is Bitcoin,

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because I think that's like a dumb question

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that needs to be revisited every few years,

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because I think we're getting to that point now

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where people are starting getting their feathers ruffled.

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And I think it really comes from a place where you got into Bitcoin

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without fully understanding what Bitcoin was.

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And now that something is happening that sort of disenchants you

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from like your idea of what Bitcoin was,

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you're like, oh, Bitcoin's broken or we need to like fix Bitcoin.

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It's like, well, if you thought Bitcoin was this in the first place,

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then you wouldn't actually be upset right now.

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So I guess we need to like talk about like, what is Bitcoin?

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Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs.

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My name is Walker and this is The Bitcoin Podcast.

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Bitcoin continues to create new blocks every 10 minutes.

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The value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.

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And if you're listening to this right now, remember, you are still early.

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If you're not already, go ahead and subscribe to this show wherever you're watching or listening

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00:04:08,100 --> 00:04:11,600
and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.

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00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:16,600
If you want to follow me in the show on Noster and X, just head to the show notes to grab the links.

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00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:21,560
If you're enjoying The Bitcoin Podcast and want to support it by becoming a paid subscriber,

84
00:04:21,740 --> 00:04:25,300
you can download the Fountain app, search for The Bitcoin Podcast,

85
00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,060
and subscribe by paying with Bitcoin via lightning or fiat via card.

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You'll get access to ad-free episodes and early releases of select content,

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00:04:34,940 --> 00:04:36,840
plus you'll help support this show.

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Head to the show notes for product discount links, go to walkeramerica.substack.com to

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get episodes emailed to you, and head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else.

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Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk.

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We're just calling this one Michael Tidwell Bitcoin Knobs. Is it pronounced Tidwell or

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tit well well depends uh it's it's kind of it's it's user choice it's it's configurable

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um it is not that uh maximum configurability on that would you say i would say i've heard

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everything from titty well tit well tid tide well is a good one i've heard that one tide well okay

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that's that's well i'm gonna go with tit well because this is tit coin podcast

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so we you will for from now on be tit well on this show i don't make the rules uh we are live

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zap.stream is working this is wonderful all right now i'm just gonna go ahead and stuff works man

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i get so i say i get so pumped when nostril stuff works and like when it works well yeah like it's

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amazing um and one of the things it feels like to me it's like it always reminds me and i've said

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this before just but it's like reminds me of sending bitcoin transactions on chain like the

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first few times and let's be honest even like the the last few times um basically every time you get

102
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that little those butterflies in your stomach you're like oh is it gonna work and then it does

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work like every time uh and but and then you verify it with your bitcoin knobs note of course

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just to make sure that you know it's real and then you then you know it's real uh okay we're gonna

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we're gonna fucking do this live uh i will and by that i mean we already are live you know what i

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did also i don't i i made uh initially i was like shit i'm gonna be late for this like you know it

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It was like a few minutes after two.

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How did I know you were going to be an hour late?

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But it's okay.

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But I made a nice little song that I was like, oh, this will be great.

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I'll tell Tidwell the reason that I'm late, which is true,

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is because I was making a custom AI song for him.

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So let's play it real quick.

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What shit's driving you to drink it?

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Oh, yeah.

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Why do you fix it when it's perfectly broken?

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Michael Tidwell

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Your heart's in the token

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Why the endless

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Debates

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The late night ex-rants

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If you really

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Okay, we can stop now.

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AI didn't do the best job of writing a song.

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I was like, make it a song about how this guy

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Michael Tidwell hates Bitcoin.

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I asked Grok to do it. It did okay.

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It lacks a little bit of soul.

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It's just kind of generic.

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so i'm sorry you had to hear that but that was why i was initially going to be late just so you know

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hey i just want to make sure you didn't look bad that's why i had a you know plus one your

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your lateness by one hour it was it was so thoughtful of you it was so thoughtful i'm here

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for you know i'm here for the people you know i wasn't gonna drink today tidwell but now it's

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like seeing you i'm just like god i need a need a drink to get through this thing this is it's

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going to be it's going to be tough i was watching uh you know you i think you're most known for

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being a podcaster is that fair to say is that not fair i mean uh i don't think anyone even knows i

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have a podcast though i think i would i thought that was kind of your claim to fame that's you

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became a bitcoin influencer through podcasting so um maybe like in 2017 that's what i was best

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known for um in 2016 i started a meetup called tab tab and the tab meetup uh grew i mean the

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first meetup we had was like march of 2016 and before that we're sort of doing like kind of like

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informal meetups but we went like you know on meetup.com in early 2016 and first one was like

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free beer and pizza and i had like 25 people show up and i pretty much was a you know

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poor poor pleb that just really wanted to evangelize bitcoin and tell people about this

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really cool tech and you know i really was like worried because this was from like the lulls of

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mount gox um you know having an attack and then we had price action down in the 160 range and then

146
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you had mike hearn you know crash out i mean you had a bunch of weird things happening that um i

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was like man i i kind of feel like i want to do something to like make sure people know this is a

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good technology and i don't want it to just like be stagnant i want to see if i can do something a

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little bit to you know let people know about this and know this is like a great time to you know get

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in this is actually like a incredible opportunity because i was like imagining like bitcoin not being

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like 100 grand or a million dollars in 2016 was like this is great we can we can you know scounge

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together some nickels from the and quarters from the couch cushions because i had like no money

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back then but um yeah started the meetup it grew got a lot of people like enthusiastic that wanted

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to help me like do it we we eventually had the meetup grow to be kind of crazy like we're talking

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like 700 plus people rsvp for like a a monthly meetup and i was running like weekend workshops

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that were teaching people how to uh make bitcoin transaction scripts i was pretty much doing like

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full-time education like with my full-time job like um and we would get to the point where

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we would fly speakers in we had sponsors all this kind of stuff and we're like well why don't we

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just do like a conference so we started the conference in 2018 and so in atlanta it kind

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got weird because like at the time when i was like dating or whatever we'd be like in a grocery

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store out in public and so i'd be like hey michael tito and then the girl would be like dude are you

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like famous i'd be like you know you know like you know is what it is i'm a bitcoin podcaster

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it's fine yeah yeah it's like well i do have a bitcoin podcast we ran um during this time we

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started a podcast my friend and i also named mike started a podcast called block time which we still

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run now in like sort of a light-hearted way i or i still continue it in a light-hearted way

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I just had an episode launch with Rob Hamilton.

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So block time.

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Don't forget to stay hydrated, friends.

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Exactly.

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So the podcast, we actually.

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It's a cool, refreshing Miller Lite.

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Sorry, continue.

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Continue.

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Yeah.

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Miller Lite sponsors this show, just so you know.

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Dude, that's sick.

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That's awesome.

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No, I wish they did.

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That'd be cool.

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If you see this, Miller Lite people, I'll take a pallet of beer in exchange for a sponsorship slot.

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Just so you know.

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so one thing i realized about podcasting um and this was during the block war kind of i mean now

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it's being called the block size wars or whatever i mean at the time it was just called bitcoin

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but during the during all that we had special access to employees at bitpay right because

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we're in atlanta and we got to get some interesting insights on jihon woo and what's going on and all

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this stuff and what i realized at the time is you know and also i think bitpay got a little upset

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that we sort of aired some stuff about their customers and stuff like this and they weren't

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really happy about that and it pretty much came down to do i want to try to be like this bitcoin

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journalist where like it's not really clear if i can make any sort of like this is this might

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actually like wreck my opportunities to get into like the bitcoin space is like a career

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do I want like to do this like journalist block you know or block time podcast thing

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or do I want to actually like have like a real job that can make like I can like live off of so

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so it was like really weird because we were like trending number one on reddit and you know trying

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to do like a good podcast break news and all this but what I learned is unless you're willing to go

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all in on like journalism half-assing journalism is is like it's just gonna make you sad because

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you're going to end up censoring yourself unless you're willing to go full in on it so um and you're

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not actually going to be able to cover stuff and say what you really want to say so i decided uh

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now when i'm doing block time it's obviously lighthearted and it's not like i'm not trying

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to like break news or anything it's just like opinion pieces or whatever but it's i learned that

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podcasting and doing it correctly is incredibly hard so started doing the conference for recognizing

201
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in that yeah yeah pretty much big fan right um so what i realized is okay i really like this

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education stuff so i'm gonna do this on the side and that's when you know tab started tab conference

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because you know the conference the the meetup was just getting ridiculously large and also we

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were like we need like maybe this is like an opportunity for us to have like invite international

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people and have like a really big gathering and we've been doing the conference since 2018

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and we're essentially the conference's goal is I've been really upset historically with conference

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quality and the mission and goals of conference and like what you actually achieve because

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the last thing I want to do is go to a Bitcoin conference and have someone go up on stage tell me

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that the price is going to go up or that Bitcoin is a good idea or that we or some sort of emotional

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sort of like thing to like get me motivated because it's more like okay we I think Bitcoin

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is a good idea I actually think it's better to be a little skeptical of it and like to to grind it

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to be, you know, even sharper. I don't want someone to, you know, I don't think we should

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have another conference. I think we're missing a conference like scaling Bitcoin where we could

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actually talk about tech and try to push Bitcoin in a meaningful way. And that's essentially where

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TabComp comes from. And that's where we are now. And really focused on Bitcoin. Now, originally,

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we were trying to bring people back into the fold. So we're originally trying to be like,

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hey, Bitcoin cash people, come back and understand Bitcoin is like, you're on the wrong side of this fork.

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And in 2019, we sort of abandoned that.

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We tried that for one year.

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And then in 2019, we pretty much started drifting to completely like a Bitcoin thing.

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I think we had like one Monero talk in 2019.

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And then pretty much after that, it's like pretty much just been all Bitcoin.

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Just because Bitcoin, there's so much going on that you came and cover all the cool things going on with it now.

224
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and all the adjacent stuff like Noster and Web of Trust ideas and all this kind of stuff.

225
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So that's where we're at now, trying to run the best high-quality conference possible

226
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with Bitcoin and Bitcoin-adjacent ideas and really just focused on the tech

227
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and not accepting the excuse that you are not technical enough to attend a technical conference

228
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because everyone needs minimal competence to be self-sovereign.

229
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And we really, I truly believe that.

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So that is me in five minutes or however long I took.

231
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It would have been less if I hadn't interrupted you so rudely.

232
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So I apologize for that.

233
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No, I do want to point out like tab conf, which I, Carl and I have wanted to go back to it where you guys were invited us to come and MC it.

234
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Was that 2022?

235
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I think that feel right.

236
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Fall of 2022.

237
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I think so.

238
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Yeah.

239
00:15:52,220 --> 00:15:56,300
Like I think 2022, 2023, I think I re-invited you last year.

240
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Maybe or I can't remember.

241
00:15:58,060 --> 00:16:00,200
But yeah, y'all are absolutely awesome.

242
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That was great.

243
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We had such an awesome time there.

244
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,380
I mean, but it is a great conference to go to for non-technical people as well. And the best part

245
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about that is like, if you want to feel like a retard, like you go and you try to participate in

246
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one of those hyper-technical discussions because it will put you right back in your place. And you

247
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remember like, Oh shit, these guys are like, they really know what they're talking about. Like this

248
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was before I even had a podcast too. So like, I'm sure I'd feel even more retarded now, but it's nice.

249
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It's nice to be reminded. And it's a safe space for people who are non-technical as well, which is

250
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nice it's a and there's karaoke usually which is like boom i don't sing but the wife does so you

251
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know yeah i think lucas is coming again this year he usually so one thing that's cool is tab conf is

252
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,820
like i just buy the venue space and then i give it away to people to run their own events so

253
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bit devs usually gets event um the space is open so you know it's like your imagination is your

254
00:16:55,580 --> 00:17:01,000
only like limitation within reason and usually people spin up karaoke chess tournaments poker

255
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or whatever like it's you know a little mini satellite within the venue like happens pretty

256
00:17:07,140 --> 00:17:12,100
organically and i don't i like the idea that things are organized on github everything's

257
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transparent you can't buy your way on stage i think like you know i'm just trying to think like

258
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what would it look like for me to attend the best conference like and that's sort of where i'm coming

259
00:17:20,820 --> 00:17:25,380
from so i love that you guys did i remember one thing that stuck out to me was like you guys did

260
00:17:25,380 --> 00:17:30,720
like a review of everything like where all the money went at the end of the conference like on

261
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,780
stage like in front of everyone right i'm remembering that correctly right yeah we we call

262
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a transparency report so we don't give away like all the financials and we may give more or less

263
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:47,800
depending on what's going on but uh that year we did like a full like financial like here's here's

264
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:54,280
all of our financials um i think things might get weird in the future if we end up having paid staff

265
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we currently don't so it's like not a big deal but if we um we might just have like a general like

266
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this is how much we spent for like help kind of bucket in the future if we ever have paid staff

267
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which i'm getting to the point now where i have kids right i have multiple kids i have this full

268
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:14,420
time job is killing me like i'm working like like crazy and like having full-time help i think in

269
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the future is going to be like probably a real thing i want to need to consider so yeah but i

270
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,900
don't know we'll see it's honestly awesome you made it this far like without that that's like

271
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that's a pretty because it's not like a little like for anyone that hasn't been it's not like

272
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a little like podunk conference like it's like it's a full freaking conference and it's also just

273
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incredibly high signal like they're like the conversations happening there like are really

274
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important and it is a lot of like you know highly technical people like battling it out and people

275
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like me sitting on the sideline holding a microphone and you know getting ready to hand

276
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:49,460
it to the next person but like it's cool like yeah so something that you missed that's really

277
00:18:49,460 --> 00:18:53,940
cool that we've been doing uh that we did last year so if you don't mind i'll show some some

278
00:18:53,940 --> 00:19:00,460
cool stuff that we're go for it man so so every year is an experiment and we were like hey you

279
00:19:00,460 --> 00:19:04,120
want to experiment with something take it to tab conf before you take it somewhere else you know

280
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that you know whatever is like more i guess is professional or something like this is more like

281
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:15,100
a like experiment here like have fun with us let's let's do stuff so we did a rotating panel

282
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where someone sets a premise for like 15 minutes and then we have people from the audience

283
00:19:21,140 --> 00:19:25,540
queue up to then be on the panel, make their point, discuss debate, whatever, ask questions,

284
00:19:25,540 --> 00:19:30,380
and then rotate off. And we probably had like 20 people rotate in and off of this panel within

285
00:19:30,380 --> 00:19:36,060
like a 90 minute period. It was really fun. So it's like, if you have a really like important

286
00:19:36,060 --> 00:19:40,500
thing to say and the panel's not talking about it, you get in line, we kick someone off the panel

287
00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:46,380
and then you go up, make your point, next person rotates, et cetera. And this has been really,

288
00:19:46,380 --> 00:19:52,640
really a good idea so that's one thing and obviously i'm moderating so if you are like

289
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,840
going up there and you're not really making a good point or whatever i like kind of all right

290
00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:03,340
it's time for you to get off now um but the other thing is the rapid explainer game show

291
00:20:03,340 --> 00:20:08,700
and this is another way where it's like we don't want to just have talks and panels that are going

292
00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:16,780
of like snooze people to sleep the the idea is to involve more people when when possible and the

293
00:20:16,780 --> 00:20:22,380
the game show explainer is someone goes up and explains a very complicated subject almost

294
00:20:22,380 --> 00:20:27,500
comedically fast within five or six minutes and they have three panelists that are trying to just

295
00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:32,840
consume as much as possible and then we have judges that then make it a game show and then

296
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,500
start quizzing you like contestant a what is a silent payment you know kind of like stuff like

297
00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:42,360
that and the funny part is is andrew polstra if you don't know who he is one of the most technical

298
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:48,340
competent bitcoiners in the space was up on stage and got asked like a zero knowledge proof question

299
00:20:48,340 --> 00:20:52,660
or something i forget and like totally bombed and it was funny because it's like this guy

300
00:20:52,660 --> 00:20:57,820
he didn't know it we all can like take a breath and be like okay if he didn't freaking understand

301
00:20:57,820 --> 00:21:03,220
it quick we now know like maybe people in bitcoin are just terrible at explaining things so this

302
00:21:03,220 --> 00:21:09,800
game show was to prove like you think you think you can explain you know like you think you can

303
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:14,540
dance it's to show you like we're terrible at explaining things and if the most competent

304
00:21:14,540 --> 00:21:20,000
people in the space can't understand your elevator pitch in five six minutes then maybe you need to

305
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,820
like think about how to explain this in a better way and the funny part is like the judges have to

306
00:21:23,820 --> 00:21:29,100
be also like as competent as the speaker that goes through it but it's that was so much fun because

307
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:34,700
you get to rotate three new people and a speaker and judges on every session and you get to do four

308
00:21:34,700 --> 00:21:38,660
of those per hour and that was that was a lot of fun because it's almost like you can get lunch and

309
00:21:38,660 --> 00:21:43,280
just watch the shit show unfold in front of you of like people stumbling around these questions

310
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:48,900
and everyone's laughing and yeah uh that was a lot of fun and then finally uh because now i'm going

311
00:21:48,900 --> 00:21:55,620
long um the other really cool thing that we're focusing on is freedom comms so freedom communication

312
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:57,800
You're making me want to get a drink now.

313
00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:58,760
I might get a beer.

314
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:00,780
I'm going to get one, yeah.

315
00:22:01,100 --> 00:22:03,220
I saw your face and I was like, I need a beer.

316
00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:12,380
So the freedom communication part, which Bitcoin veterans are really into as well,

317
00:22:12,380 --> 00:22:20,880
and I've learned about recently because, oh my gosh, I'm blanking.

318
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,100
anyways I'm blanking on the Bitcoiners name but

319
00:22:24,100 --> 00:22:25,660
introduced me to MeshTastic

320
00:22:25,660 --> 00:22:28,140
and MeshTastic is an open protocol

321
00:22:28,140 --> 00:22:28,900
where you can

322
00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:31,580
not Gary

323
00:22:31,580 --> 00:22:32,960
but Gary's

324
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,480
he's actually coming to TabConf and he

325
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,320
you know might be

326
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:38,980
involved a little bit with this but

327
00:22:38,980 --> 00:22:41,580
we

328
00:22:41,580 --> 00:22:47,620
I'm killing myself not remembering this person's name

329
00:22:47,620 --> 00:22:49,480
I want to remember it right after this podcast but anyways

330
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:55,920
we decided to spend like, I think like about 20 or 15 or 20 grand on mesh-tastic hardware.

331
00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:01,520
We bought soldering kits. We bought a bunch of wires, a bunch of plastic cases. And, you know,

332
00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:06,360
and the idea is we had a whole area where like, I think we ended up making like over a hundred

333
00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:10,660
devices or like 200 devices. And like, everyone had like a little mesh-tastic antenna and their

334
00:23:10,660 --> 00:23:14,820
like book bag. And like, people were like, not even needing like wifi or the internet to like

335
00:23:14,820 --> 00:23:18,780
talk to each other at the conference. Like that was really fun. And then it's like, okay, that was

336
00:23:18,780 --> 00:23:23,620
the first year okay how do we take that experiment further this year it's like well maybe now we try

337
00:23:23,620 --> 00:23:29,440
to pass bitcoin messages like partially signed transactions you know over mesh tastic and then

338
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,120
what what does this like do when you have like a really robust network well you have like a really

339
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:40,760
privacy focused like entry point into the internet before it gets broadcasted through a node which is

340
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:47,420
really really cool because if you're able to broadcast your transaction through a mesh tastic

341
00:23:47,420 --> 00:23:53,960
device in atlanta and it goes all the way up to nashville tennessee to bitcoin park right and

342
00:23:53,960 --> 00:24:00,140
they're and they broadcast it through their node it's like it linking you know like internet ip

343
00:24:00,140 --> 00:24:05,760
hops and stuff might be easy for isps and working together but tracking that through mesh tastic is

344
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,880
a whole new can of worms and i think that's really really fun especially if you also include

345
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,380
encryption with that i mean it's like we're talking some really really cool stuff right now

346
00:24:14,380 --> 00:24:38,580
So these are like projects that we want to keep continuing and experimenting with throughout the years. And so that's why I say like Bitcoin and Bitcoin adjacent, because some of these things like Noster and MeshTastic don't necessarily apply to Bitcoin directly. But I think it's like really cool as like a tertiary, secondary sort of like enhancement to making the money better. So with that being said, I'm going to grab a beer. I'll be right back.

347
00:24:38,580 --> 00:24:59,560
Do it, do it. And while Tivolo is grabbing a beer, just want to say hello to everybody in the NOSTER only live stream. If you're not watching this on NOSTER right now live, that means you are watching it later on a centralized platform. So you could have been watching this live, but this show only live streams on NOSTER.

348
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:05,300
so to those who are here thank you for being here i'll even forgive qw and probably derrick i'm not

349
00:25:05,300 --> 00:25:11,520
sure for rude comments but who can say but yeah if you haven't checked out nostr you definitely

350
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,560
should there are a bunch of different clients you can use it doesn't matter you just need to

351
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:21,140
generate a public private key pair and keep that private key pair safe and sound somewhere and then

352
00:25:21,140 --> 00:25:28,060
you are off and running my friend so watch this show live next time on nostr only uh nostr does

353
00:25:28,060 --> 00:25:33,020
pay me to say this just so you guys know even though it's an open protocol they actually they

354
00:25:33,020 --> 00:25:39,340
pay me so uh this is sponsored by nostr just so everybody knows and by sponsored by nostr i mean

355
00:25:39,340 --> 00:25:44,460
people are sending me zaps right now in bitcoin which is fantastic so thank you guys i appreciate

356
00:25:44,460 --> 00:25:51,040
the zaps each and every one what kind of beard do we think tidwell will have when he comes back

357
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,900
Oh, thank you, Forrest, for the 5,000 sat zap.

358
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:55,900
That is cheers.

359
00:25:56,180 --> 00:25:56,960
Much appreciated.

360
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:04,800
I've got to say, I've noticed since more clients turned on in-app live streaming capabilities,

361
00:26:05,300 --> 00:26:10,860
the number of zaps I receive during these live streams has increased quite drastically.

362
00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:16,200
So I think people are probably watching maybe on zap.stream directly right now, maybe on

363
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,040
Primal, maybe on Fountain.

364
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:22,840
I think they like stealthily just released Noster live streaming there.

365
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:24,020
Amethyst has it.

366
00:26:24,100 --> 00:26:25,220
I know probably some other clients.

367
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:25,740
So yeah,

368
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:26,640
wherever you're watching,

369
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:27,500
welcome.

370
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,260
And if you're not watching on Noster live,

371
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:30,000
fuck you.

372
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:31,300
I'm just kidding guys.

373
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:31,740
That's,

374
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:32,140
that's a joke.

375
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:32,820
Welcome back to it.

376
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:33,000
What,

377
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:33,140
what,

378
00:26:33,140 --> 00:26:34,040
what beer did you go with?

379
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:34,640
What you got there?

380
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:37,080
Oh,

381
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:37,660
that's nice.

382
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:38,240
All right.

383
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:39,120
Now we're having,

384
00:26:39,220 --> 00:26:39,820
now it's a party.

385
00:26:40,940 --> 00:26:41,580
So sweet,

386
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:42,320
sweet,

387
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:43,640
sweet water is,

388
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,020
is a Georgia Atlanta brand.

389
00:26:47,020 --> 00:26:51,860
So trying to support local, you know, I'm from Wisconsin.

390
00:26:51,860 --> 00:27:04,360
So that's why I have to drink Miller Lite and because they're going to sponsor this show someday, but not today, but someday the cool, refreshing taste of a fine Pilsner beer will be filling, filling my pockets with more cool, refreshing fine Pilsner beers.

391
00:27:04,460 --> 00:27:05,640
I can, I hope so anyway.

392
00:27:06,860 --> 00:27:08,800
But you know, you know about this brand, right?

393
00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:10,020
You know about this brand.

394
00:27:10,620 --> 00:27:11,500
Sweet Water 420.

395
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:12,400
You've heard of it?

396
00:27:12,620 --> 00:27:13,420
Maybe I've heard of it.

397
00:27:13,420 --> 00:27:13,560
Yeah.

398
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:13,760
Yeah.

399
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:15,220
I don't, I don't know if I've had it actually.

400
00:27:15,220 --> 00:27:15,700
Yeah.

401
00:27:17,020 --> 00:27:18,320
but I do know it.

402
00:27:19,940 --> 00:27:21,060
Is there a follow up there?

403
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,160
Well, it's the most popular, I think, external.

404
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,760
I think it's the most popular beer that's come from Georgia.

405
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:28,720
Okay.

406
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:29,580
Like by far.

407
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,080
I think this is like the currently the most popular beer from Georgia

408
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:34,140
is Sweetwater 420.

409
00:27:34,140 --> 00:27:38,540
So I wasn't sure how wide it spread, if it's an international.

410
00:27:39,100 --> 00:27:43,220
Do luxury beer in Japan at this point, you know, I'm not sure.

411
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,220
You know what I find funny about like,

412
00:27:46,220 --> 00:27:53,620
in Japan and America and like how the trade works. It's like, like kind of like very basic brands

413
00:27:53,620 --> 00:27:58,020
here in the USA or like luxury brands in Japan that goes with like beers also like whiskeys,

414
00:27:58,140 --> 00:28:02,360
right? They're like luxury brands over there. They're super expensive. And the same with like

415
00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:18,121
Japanese whiskeys and Japanese beers like over there it like yeah it like you can you know get a bottle of Japanese find Japanese whiskey like very cheap but you bring it over to America and it like that thing is high end high class I like there is just a racket going on This is like some sort of booze cartel happening

416
00:28:18,121 --> 00:28:19,881
And like, who's paying the price?

417
00:28:19,961 --> 00:28:21,321
It's like, it's us, the little guys.

418
00:28:21,321 --> 00:28:24,901
They're screwing us over with their beer cartel and their whiskey cartel.

419
00:28:25,121 --> 00:28:26,001
I digress.

420
00:28:26,121 --> 00:28:28,301
But yeah, these are things I ponder sometimes.

421
00:28:28,721 --> 00:28:31,041
Who is profiting off that massive spread?

422
00:28:31,301 --> 00:28:32,121
I guess distributors?

423
00:28:32,281 --> 00:28:32,661
I don't know.

424
00:28:32,661 --> 00:28:38,581
you could also say maybe a little bit with cars except american cars going elsewhere besides like

425
00:28:38,581 --> 00:28:44,321
maybe like tesla but like i don't think anyone's like really excited about uh you know like a ford

426
00:28:44,321 --> 00:28:51,761
focus and anywhere but well maybe they are i don't know but you know like i think foreign brands

427
00:28:51,761 --> 00:28:58,301
let's just have the hypothetical that american brands are you know same quality you know for

428
00:28:58,301 --> 00:29:01,721
argument's sake i think there'd be a little bit of like oh you have a beamer mercedes or whatever

429
00:29:01,721 --> 00:29:09,101
you know and uh i don't know maybe it's like everything yeah well on the car side like what

430
00:29:09,101 --> 00:29:13,521
people want like especially in europe is like classic american muscle but the problem is that

431
00:29:13,521 --> 00:29:17,961
like most of those cars are basically like you can't drive them because they're not they're not

432
00:29:17,961 --> 00:29:21,661
eco-friendly enough like you literally like like the engines are too big that you know they use

433
00:29:21,661 --> 00:29:27,901
and it's like god that's i feel bad for europe sometimes like it's just like come on you know

434
00:29:27,901 --> 00:29:30,081
They deserve to taste a little bit more freedom.

435
00:29:30,441 --> 00:29:30,581
You know?

436
00:29:31,041 --> 00:29:33,361
They deserve to taste freedom, period.

437
00:29:34,961 --> 00:29:35,201
Amen.

438
00:29:35,421 --> 00:29:37,381
Yeah, it's looking a little dark over there, but I have faith.

439
00:29:37,581 --> 00:29:39,061
I mean, they've been around for a while.

440
00:29:39,061 --> 00:29:48,401
I mean, from what I'm seeing from my highly curated Twitter feed, apparently you're not allowed to post memes in London or the UK, which sounds a little crazy.

441
00:29:48,521 --> 00:29:51,481
I don't know how true that is, but that is kind of crazy.

442
00:29:53,561 --> 00:29:54,281
Legitimately true.

443
00:29:54,281 --> 00:30:00,281
you can actually you can get in trouble for retweeting an offensive that is sorry offensive

444
00:30:00,281 --> 00:30:05,181
quote quote retweeting or just retweeting that's the real question just retweeting i'm pretty sure

445
00:30:05,181 --> 00:30:10,801
oh because retweeting you just need to make sure in your profile rts don't equal endorsement you

446
00:30:10,801 --> 00:30:17,181
know that you're like that works right that counts it is messed up i'm bringing awareness to the

447
00:30:17,181 --> 00:30:23,301
problem you know well i wonder how many people that's going to push to understand the importance

448
00:30:23,301 --> 00:30:26,321
of anonymity and pseudonymity online.

449
00:30:26,681 --> 00:30:28,781
And that is a really powerful and good thing.

450
00:30:29,981 --> 00:30:32,321
There's this weird thing where I feel like social media,

451
00:30:32,501 --> 00:30:34,221
kind of like the Facebook effect,

452
00:30:34,301 --> 00:30:39,201
where basically it ushered in this era of everybody puts basically,

453
00:30:39,321 --> 00:30:42,601
it's like name, date of birth, all my favorite hobbies,

454
00:30:42,721 --> 00:30:43,601
the street I grew up on,

455
00:30:43,681 --> 00:30:45,821
putting basically all their most personal information

456
00:30:45,821 --> 00:30:47,141
right in their Facebook bio.

457
00:30:47,781 --> 00:30:50,021
More back in the day, I don't know if anyone in our generation

458
00:30:50,021 --> 00:30:52,121
is really even using Facebook in a meaningful way.

459
00:30:52,121 --> 00:30:58,441
these days it's like it's all boomers uh all boomers getting catfished by ai basically but

460
00:30:58,441 --> 00:31:03,541
like that was actually kind of just like such a fucked up thing that we did to people and just to

461
00:31:03,541 --> 00:31:08,381
to normalize that to really normalize like here you just put all of your info out there and also

462
00:31:08,381 --> 00:31:15,101
post your location like wherever you are all the time and granted like that perhaps has led to a

463
00:31:15,101 --> 00:31:21,381
negligible amount of uh physical harm that ends up being done to people but like when something like

464
00:31:21,381 --> 00:31:25,941
that is normalized, it does create a vector, like an attack vector for anyone who does want to do

465
00:31:25,941 --> 00:31:31,361
any harm. Like you can, especially with boomers. I'm like, you guys are, if, I don't know if people

466
00:31:31,361 --> 00:31:35,061
come for the boomers, like we'll know exactly where to find them. It's, and that's a little

467
00:31:35,061 --> 00:31:39,041
bit dark and concerning. So I'm glad that things like Noster exist where you don't have to have

468
00:31:39,041 --> 00:31:42,521
anything, literally anything at all tied to your identity. I think that's a beautiful thing.

469
00:31:42,961 --> 00:31:47,861
Hello friends. You may notice that there are no sponsors for this episode and that is because

470
00:31:47,861 --> 00:31:54,341
this is a pure value for value episode. So if you find this episode valuable, consider giving value

471
00:31:54,341 --> 00:31:59,741
back. You can do that by becoming a paid subscriber on Fountain. You can send me a zap on Noster,

472
00:32:00,161 --> 00:32:05,101
boost on Fountain. Or if you don't feel like doing any of those, one thing you can do that is totally

473
00:32:05,101 --> 00:32:10,961
free is just to share this show with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet so that it

474
00:32:10,961 --> 00:32:16,001
reaches more people. If you are listening on a podcasting app like Apple Podcast, you can also

475
00:32:16,001 --> 00:32:21,021
give this a five-star rating so more people find the show. You can subscribe on YouTube, Rumble,

476
00:32:21,141 --> 00:32:26,361
or wherever else you're watching. But again, I always recommend that Bitcoiners check out Fountain.

477
00:32:26,741 --> 00:32:32,801
You can also go check out the big print audiobook, which I narrated. You also, of course, do not have

478
00:32:32,801 --> 00:32:38,121
to do any of those things. Bitcoin does not care, but I sure do appreciate all of your support.

479
00:32:38,121 --> 00:32:39,341
So thank you.

480
00:32:46,001 --> 00:32:48,641
And it's her voice, but it's not her, you know?

481
00:32:49,061 --> 00:32:49,441
Oh, yeah.

482
00:32:49,601 --> 00:32:50,641
Like, that's going to get bad.

483
00:32:50,801 --> 00:32:54,781
It's going to be bad when your child calls you, and it's not your child.

484
00:32:55,281 --> 00:33:00,561
It's going to be bad when grandma gets a call from me, and it's not me.

485
00:33:00,721 --> 00:33:01,001
Right?

486
00:33:01,061 --> 00:33:01,601
You know, equivalent.

487
00:33:01,601 --> 00:33:05,161
Like, it's, I think it's only going to get worse.

488
00:33:05,341 --> 00:33:11,821
And that, not to show my bags, not to show my bags, but that's why I think Web of Trust

489
00:33:11,821 --> 00:33:17,141
and maybe something with HSMs are part of the solution.

490
00:33:17,701 --> 00:33:18,721
And when I say Web of Trust,

491
00:33:18,821 --> 00:33:21,281
I brought this up just really briefly earlier.

492
00:33:23,061 --> 00:33:28,221
Like, for instance, if we, you know, do a key signing

493
00:33:28,221 --> 00:33:30,921
or, you know, we validate each other, you know,

494
00:33:30,961 --> 00:33:32,321
whatever, our Nostra PubKey is whatever,

495
00:33:32,781 --> 00:33:36,181
and you're getting comms from this Nostra PubKey

496
00:33:36,181 --> 00:33:39,521
that, you know, seems legit,

497
00:33:39,521 --> 00:33:46,881
but you have, you know, Walker's, you know, first level sort of, you know, connection say,

498
00:33:47,021 --> 00:33:51,141
hey, by the way, that's not Walker, Walker anymore. Like, I can have some sort of idea,

499
00:33:51,221 --> 00:33:55,301
like, okay, well, Walker's already said, like, these five or six people like are his close

500
00:33:55,301 --> 00:33:59,321
friends or whatever, like, these people are validating, you know, whatever, or you have,

501
00:33:59,421 --> 00:34:04,201
like, backup accounts that validate that, you know, like, the idea is, like, you meet people

502
00:34:04,201 --> 00:34:08,321
in person, you verify who you're talking to, you build that out slowly over time,

503
00:34:08,321 --> 00:34:13,241
social media posts, videos, pictures, whatever, all can piggyback off this.

504
00:34:13,621 --> 00:34:16,501
Rotating pub keys on Nostra can piggyback off this.

505
00:34:17,041 --> 00:34:22,081
You know, partially signed Bitcoin transaction conditions with Frost and other things can

506
00:34:22,081 --> 00:34:27,861
piggyback off this, you know, as some of the conditional of like, you know, long tail time

507
00:34:27,861 --> 00:34:28,521
lock conditions.

508
00:34:28,961 --> 00:34:33,741
I mean, I think it's part of the solution because I'll tell you, it's becoming commodity.

509
00:34:33,741 --> 00:34:35,941
it's getting in the hands

510
00:34:35,941 --> 00:34:38,921
like that song that you played earlier

511
00:34:38,921 --> 00:34:40,921
like 20 years ago

512
00:34:40,921 --> 00:34:42,641
like making that from AI

513
00:34:42,641 --> 00:34:43,901
would have been like ah whatever

514
00:34:43,901 --> 00:34:45,641
that was a real person right

515
00:34:45,641 --> 00:34:47,501
now it's like

516
00:34:47,501 --> 00:34:49,581
okay yeah that was probably just like some

517
00:34:49,581 --> 00:34:51,861
you paid like 3 bucks for like some tool

518
00:34:51,861 --> 00:34:53,821
to like generate it or like even like less

519
00:34:53,821 --> 00:34:55,361
right anyways

520
00:34:55,361 --> 00:34:57,041
that probably cost me a couple of cents

521
00:34:57,041 --> 00:34:59,181
I mean I don't know I've got like an unlimited membership plan

522
00:34:59,181 --> 00:35:00,961
just so I can generate plenty of you know

523
00:35:00,961 --> 00:35:03,361
90's angst rock songs

524
00:35:03,361 --> 00:35:15,241
Right. But I think it's becoming more commodity. I don't think, you know, I think any sort of idea of like watermarks or whatever aren't going to be necessarily super effective.

525
00:35:15,241 --> 00:35:26,581
But I think, you know, you're going to you're just making a market for private mempools of AI, you know, equivalent, you know, if if everything requires a watermark.

526
00:35:26,581 --> 00:35:34,861
And I think it would be nice to have a more freedom centric sort of approach to verifying what the hell you're looking at makes sense.

527
00:35:35,161 --> 00:35:40,401
And is from essentially, OK, is it like two strings down? Is it three levels down?

528
00:35:40,481 --> 00:35:42,801
Like, is it four levels away from me?

529
00:35:42,801 --> 00:35:47,421
like in terms of like do i have anyone like everyone's like nine you know connections away

530
00:35:47,421 --> 00:35:53,781
from like kevin bacon but like am i do i have any sort of idea of you know how trustworthy this is

531
00:35:53,781 --> 00:36:00,681
in terms of some like you know elo score um so i think it's important we're going to be doing this

532
00:36:00,681 --> 00:36:05,661
uh it doesn't stand for shit as far as i understand it's just the measurement of

533
00:36:05,661 --> 00:36:11,341
chess like you know when you're playing chess and you have like a rating oh okay so you gotta say

534
00:36:11,341 --> 00:36:16,301
is for non like expert autist chess players like i'm just like a normal chess player so you know

535
00:36:16,301 --> 00:36:22,021
excuse me wow i'm really outing myself as a big dumb idiot aren't i jeez well i mean i don't know

536
00:36:22,021 --> 00:36:24,901
what elo stands for maybe it does stand for something but i don't think it stands for

537
00:36:24,901 --> 00:36:30,441
anything but okay but what i'm trying to say is like i don't want to use the word credit score or

538
00:36:30,441 --> 00:36:34,541
credit rating because i think that gets into like a weird space and i just want something where

539
00:36:34,541 --> 00:36:40,421
it's it's just like can i understand you know what i'm looking at with some sort of guarantees

540
00:36:40,421 --> 00:36:48,041
as things become more commodity in terms of, you know, fake videos, pictures, transactions,

541
00:36:48,281 --> 00:36:49,281
phone calls, etc.

542
00:36:49,921 --> 00:36:54,821
And I really like the idea of, you know, piggybacking off Nostra ideas like with PubKey.

543
00:36:54,921 --> 00:37:00,601
I like the idea of building that out and making that useful for other things outside of Nostra

544
00:37:00,601 --> 00:37:00,961
as well.

545
00:37:02,501 --> 00:37:06,661
So these are all things I want to experiment with with TabConf.

546
00:37:06,761 --> 00:37:10,401
So that's me pushing my bags again where it's like I'm looking for people hungry that

547
00:37:10,401 --> 00:37:14,861
want to like start this project with me that's recurring that has an annual sort of like in-person

548
00:37:14,861 --> 00:37:21,321
meeting essentially and like tab conf can help like spot like like find funding tab conf can help

549
00:37:21,321 --> 00:37:27,521
like you know find people interested and like can help like be this thing to help motivated people

550
00:37:27,521 --> 00:37:32,761
stay engaged on various projects that are important um for the conference and bitcoin and you know

551
00:37:32,761 --> 00:37:38,181
people who care about this stuff so anyway sorry i'm done pumping my bags i'm ready to talk about

552
00:37:38,181 --> 00:37:45,101
random news or whatever so no i mean honestly i love it and people should check out i i wish we

553
00:37:45,101 --> 00:37:49,481
could go this year we're not going to be uh uh in the country at that time but we will be there in

554
00:37:49,481 --> 00:37:55,421
spirit uh pumping your bags for you but yeah so there's there's i don't know what what do you want

555
00:37:55,421 --> 00:37:59,881
to talk about i i purposely prepared very little for this i was like i'm not preparing for for

556
00:37:59,881 --> 00:38:04,141
tidwell i'm just going to go in there and raw dog it so like i guess you know maybe a good place to

557
00:38:04,141 --> 00:38:07,321
start is, is it true that you hate Bitcoin and want it to die?

558
00:38:10,621 --> 00:38:16,601
Yes, but, but, yes, but, but let me explain.

559
00:38:21,361 --> 00:38:22,481
Came at you hot there.

560
00:38:22,981 --> 00:38:23,141
Yeah.

561
00:38:23,261 --> 00:38:29,181
So here's the thing, which we can take it there if you want, but I would love if we could

562
00:38:29,181 --> 00:38:33,261
talk about what is Bitcoin, because I think that's like a dumb question.

563
00:38:33,261 --> 00:38:37,321
that needs to be revisited every few years

564
00:38:37,321 --> 00:38:39,141
because I think we're getting to that point now

565
00:38:39,141 --> 00:38:43,861
where people are starting getting their feathers ruffled.

566
00:38:44,581 --> 00:38:46,401
And I think it really comes from a place

567
00:38:46,401 --> 00:38:48,261
where you got into Bitcoin

568
00:38:48,261 --> 00:38:51,141
without fully understanding what Bitcoin was.

569
00:38:51,221 --> 00:38:52,541
And now that something is happening

570
00:38:52,541 --> 00:38:54,601
that sort of disenchants you

571
00:38:54,601 --> 00:38:56,461
from like your idea of what Bitcoin was,

572
00:38:56,561 --> 00:38:57,781
you're like, oh, Bitcoin's broken

573
00:38:57,781 --> 00:38:59,281
or we need to like fix Bitcoin.

574
00:38:59,401 --> 00:39:01,541
It's like, well, if you thought Bitcoin

575
00:39:01,541 --> 00:39:02,501
was this in the first place,

576
00:39:02,501 --> 00:39:04,301
you wouldn't actually be upset right now.

577
00:39:04,761 --> 00:39:08,021
So I guess we need to talk about what is Bitcoin,

578
00:39:09,221 --> 00:39:13,501
and maybe you can start.

579
00:39:14,401 --> 00:39:17,741
So Tidwell, tell me, what is Bitcoin?

580
00:39:18,601 --> 00:39:21,481
Perfect. You're perfect.

581
00:39:21,581 --> 00:39:22,641
You just throw it right back at me.

582
00:39:22,641 --> 00:39:40,041
Um, so I am, I'm sort of, uh, of the principles of Bitcoin uncensored originally, um, where, where a lot of my original sort of ideas of what Bitcoin really is comes from that.

583
00:39:40,041 --> 00:39:41,981
this is where

584
00:39:41,981 --> 00:39:45,041
and then I will go a little bit more

585
00:39:45,041 --> 00:39:46,921
nuance where I

586
00:39:46,921 --> 00:39:48,121
pretty much am

587
00:39:48,121 --> 00:39:51,101
maybe on my own

588
00:39:51,101 --> 00:39:53,021
you know out to the edge of

589
00:39:53,021 --> 00:39:55,121
thinking I do want

590
00:39:55,121 --> 00:39:57,341
to caveat this with saying that if you

591
00:39:57,341 --> 00:39:59,081
really push people

592
00:39:59,081 --> 00:40:01,261
to explain what Bitcoin is and what they want to use it for

593
00:40:01,261 --> 00:40:03,321
and ideals behind it

594
00:40:03,321 --> 00:40:05,201
and philosophy I think

595
00:40:05,201 --> 00:40:07,321
what people will find is many

596
00:40:07,321 --> 00:40:09,181
people are out on little

597
00:40:09,181 --> 00:40:15,641
islands of thought that are sort of independent. Like we all, we are all on the main channel,

598
00:40:15,901 --> 00:40:23,101
but we sort of diverge slightly on subtle things here and there. And a lot of us have unique

599
00:40:23,101 --> 00:40:29,061
perspectives on what Bitcoin is and what makes Bitcoin, you know, endangered to, you know,

600
00:40:29,061 --> 00:40:33,141
being destroyed or what, what is a boogeyman of Bitcoin or, you know, stuff like this.

601
00:40:33,141 --> 00:40:42,281
my opinion is pretty radical i would say i'm of the opinion where bitcoin can survive ebbs and

602
00:40:42,281 --> 00:40:49,161
flows of terrible situations of censorship centralization and actually come on the other

603
00:40:49,161 --> 00:40:55,881
out of it and on the other side of it still as a usable system that can course correct and become

604
00:40:55,881 --> 00:41:00,241
more of a freedom money and freedom data ledger.

605
00:41:00,761 --> 00:41:05,141
So I think it's sort of this really fascinating technology

606
00:41:05,141 --> 00:41:08,521
that can actually be co-opted and be corrupted and recover

607
00:41:08,521 --> 00:41:10,581
because of the proof of work essentially

608
00:41:10,581 --> 00:41:15,661
and because of the people incentivized to be good stewards of the network.

609
00:41:16,081 --> 00:41:21,781
So I'm even of the opinion where if something really bizarre happens

610
00:41:21,781 --> 00:41:23,801
and there only becomes one mining pool,

611
00:41:23,801 --> 00:41:26,701
that Bitcoin could survive that pretty easily,

612
00:41:27,201 --> 00:41:29,541
even though that would be like a doomsday situation

613
00:41:29,541 --> 00:41:30,381
for a lot of people

614
00:41:30,381 --> 00:41:31,941
if mining was completely centralized.

615
00:41:32,461 --> 00:41:35,801
I actually, because I truly believe

616
00:41:35,801 --> 00:41:37,161
in the game theory this strongly,

617
00:41:37,321 --> 00:41:39,821
I think that it would even get to the point

618
00:41:39,821 --> 00:41:42,001
where that miner would be incentivized

619
00:41:42,001 --> 00:41:43,321
to be a good steward

620
00:41:43,321 --> 00:41:46,401
because the ultimate thing that people can do

621
00:41:46,401 --> 00:41:47,521
is vote with their feet

622
00:41:47,521 --> 00:41:49,821
and vote with their nodes

623
00:41:49,821 --> 00:41:52,401
via this crazy idea of a UASF,

624
00:41:52,401 --> 00:41:58,701
which I don't think is a good idea, but it is a nuclear option for absolutely terrible situations.

625
00:41:59,621 --> 00:42:06,801
And I think ultimately the pleb move that is measurable, not just running a node,

626
00:42:06,921 --> 00:42:12,761
which in my opinion is a unknown variable of impact, the measurable impact that is deterministic,

627
00:42:12,901 --> 00:42:17,201
however small or however big, is voting with your feet. You sell your coins.

628
00:42:17,201 --> 00:42:29,461
So because of these sort of primitive ideas that I truly believe in and I think are very strong and keep everyone accountable, I think Bitcoin is a very robust system and actually why I'm involved in it.

629
00:42:29,461 --> 00:42:37,661
And I actually spent my first eight months of Bitcoin being an antagonist and actually thinking Bitcoin was a terrible idea, trying to prove that it was a bad idea.

630
00:42:39,081 --> 00:42:43,561
Unfortunately, it cost me a fortune during that time trying to prove it was a bad idea.

631
00:42:43,561 --> 00:42:49,781
But in the process of doing so, I was able to address all my concerns with it.

632
00:42:50,241 --> 00:42:59,681
So I feel like I've already went down all the paths of dystopian sort of scenarios, and I've actually been okay with all of them.

633
00:43:00,501 --> 00:43:05,841
Whether people think that's fortunate or unfortunate, I think this is, you know, my own thing.

634
00:43:05,841 --> 00:43:14,421
Now, this is also where if we want to get into like some nuance, Craig Maxwell and I actually disagree on a few things.

635
00:43:14,421 --> 00:43:21,561
And the most interesting thing, and I point to Craig Maxwell because I consider him to be one of the most competent Bitcoin developers and that I respect.

636
00:43:21,881 --> 00:43:32,481
So I think it's important to be like, where do I actually diverge with, we'll say, typical core thinking or typical Bitcoin technical thinking, right?

637
00:43:33,621 --> 00:43:35,541
At least to some facet of it.

638
00:43:35,841 --> 00:43:48,381
And it gets to the point where, okay, if Bitcoin Cash hypothetically got more proof of work than Bitcoin, my opinion is that actually becomes Bitcoin.

639
00:43:48,661 --> 00:44:02,601
And the reason for that is because if I go into a coma for 20 years and I wake up, I can very easily look at one metric to know what's going on, which is which chain has the most proof of work, cumulative proof of work.

640
00:44:02,601 --> 00:44:27,901
And if I see that the current chain with the most proof of work going on, the most miners that support it, the most energy being pumped into it is this thing, then that is, you know, people are calling it Bitcoin, even if it completely disagrees with prior consensus rules or relay rules or whatever the hell, or even maybe even like some various principles of Bitcoin that I don't agree with, that is still whatever the community decides is Bitcoin.

641
00:44:27,901 --> 00:44:36,261
and that's how we sort of have this super dry source of truth for what Bitcoin is.

642
00:44:36,321 --> 00:44:38,641
Now, whether or not Bitcoin is interesting, I think is to be determined,

643
00:44:38,641 --> 00:44:42,421
but I think it's very interesting to be able to understand

644
00:44:42,421 --> 00:44:47,061
that this is the chain with the most proof of work that people are calling Bitcoin.

645
00:44:47,261 --> 00:44:50,221
So therefore, it's very easy for me to understand what Bitcoin is

646
00:44:50,221 --> 00:44:53,421
without being Sybil-detect with various implementations

647
00:44:53,421 --> 00:44:56,081
and amounts of nodes and stuff like this.

648
00:44:56,081 --> 00:45:02,321
So that is sort of my, and by the way, that's where Greg and I split.

649
00:45:02,801 --> 00:45:04,041
Greg is actually of the opinion.

650
00:45:04,241 --> 00:45:06,681
It's not what most proof of work says.

651
00:45:06,741 --> 00:45:09,521
It's what the actual notes say.

652
00:45:09,641 --> 00:45:15,001
But anyways, this is my opinion of what Bitcoin is and how I feel about it.

653
00:45:15,481 --> 00:45:15,901
Your turn.

654
00:45:17,001 --> 00:45:18,901
I did want to ask for one clarification.

655
00:45:19,141 --> 00:45:22,361
Is it fair to say the way that you would determine Bitcoin then is on a,

656
00:45:22,881 --> 00:45:25,381
like you're looking at the economic rationale.

657
00:45:25,381 --> 00:45:38,241
Now you're looking to say like, this is what it has, because ultimately that's what it comes down to when it comes to most miners, like, like that's most power going into most energy going into it. That is all like, those are all economic forces at the end of the day. Like when you boil them down. Right.

658
00:45:38,241 --> 00:45:57,481
Yeah. And funny enough, you can almost say that abstractly given like efficient markets, that all you have to do is see which coin has the most market cap. And if you really want to be a layman about it. So which coin has the most market cap? You know, granted that you're incentivizing proof of work to be pumped into it.

659
00:45:57,481 --> 00:46:03,561
you know granted those two things you know it's not like bizarre where miners are purposely mining

660
00:46:03,561 --> 00:46:08,161
at a loss or something like granted miners are doing what's in their best interest like the coin

661
00:46:08,161 --> 00:46:12,481
with the most money has the most people that voted with their feet has the most people that are

662
00:46:12,481 --> 00:46:18,041
supporting it has the most businesses behind it has the most plebs buying it like whatever like

663
00:46:18,041 --> 00:46:23,841
cumulative maybe one of those things is wrong but like in culmination you can almost just look at

664
00:46:23,841 --> 00:46:28,481
the market cap to understand this thing which then really pisses people off because they're like

665
00:46:28,481 --> 00:46:33,081
that's not what bitcoin is because it's so much more complicated that but i'd like to say like

666
00:46:33,081 --> 00:46:39,421
well is it you know because if you can abstract these things out to what they actually result in

667
00:46:39,421 --> 00:46:44,721
then and that result is very easy and easy to understand then maybe we're wasting our time

668
00:46:44,721 --> 00:46:52,201
talking about what bitcoin is and let's just start building shit so boom boom i like i like that uh

669
00:46:52,201 --> 00:46:57,621
boom goes the dynamite. I think that it's a very fair point because it's easy to get distracted.

670
00:46:57,761 --> 00:47:02,141
And what I've realized with these recent rather contentious debates that I've seen, and full

671
00:47:02,141 --> 00:47:08,181
disclosure, I am not a highly technical person. I have studied Bitcoin quite a lot. I do have some

672
00:47:08,181 --> 00:47:13,821
basic technical chops, but nothing like on your level or certainly not on the level of anyone who

673
00:47:13,821 --> 00:47:19,141
is actually developing on Bitcoin. Very obviously so. But one of the things that seems to be really

674
00:47:19,141 --> 00:47:25,181
clear to me is that people don't understand like what would actually happen in a fork scenario

675
00:47:25,181 --> 00:47:33,081
and like how that like what really matters is who sells their coins and who doesn't like that that

676
00:47:33,081 --> 00:47:36,801
that that is actually like what matters that people don't seem to understand the concept of

677
00:47:36,801 --> 00:47:40,821
economic nodes and like what that means and i get that that's like confusing for people

678
00:47:40,821 --> 00:47:47,181
but like it does all come down ultimately to economic energy and where that is being pushed

679
00:47:47,181 --> 00:47:51,941
and like there's a reason that bitcoin cash is worth i don't know what is it worth now like a

680
00:47:51,941 --> 00:47:56,161
couple hundred bucks like something like that i haven't looked in a while like it's it's worth

681
00:47:56,161 --> 00:48:03,021
next to nothing it's worth orders of magnitude less than bitcoin real bitcoin because people

682
00:48:03,021 --> 00:48:10,021
sold their when it forked they sold their bitcoin cash and they bought more bitcoin with it and that

683
00:48:10,021 --> 00:48:14,441
like that's what happened and so and i feel that there's a bit of a disconnect there and for for me

684
00:48:14,441 --> 00:48:19,401
to answer the question just so i don't seem that i'm skirting it i think bitcoin is money and a

685
00:48:19,401 --> 00:48:24,261
network and a ledger and you can define like ledger can be defined how you want if you want to define

686
00:48:24,261 --> 00:48:27,601
a letter as like a ledger is you know it's a distributed distributed ledger it's distributed

687
00:48:27,601 --> 00:48:31,821
database whatever you want to say but like that's what it is it's a to me it's a multi-faceted thing

688
00:48:31,821 --> 00:48:37,961
i i think that though ultimately you have a good characterization of it because what you're saying

689
00:48:37,961 --> 00:48:41,821
is yeah you can like you can call it whatever names you want but ultimately like what bitcoin is

690
00:48:41,821 --> 00:48:45,341
is whatever has the most economic energy behind it.

691
00:48:46,061 --> 00:48:48,041
You don't even have to worry about giving it a name,

692
00:48:48,141 --> 00:48:48,901
like naming the beast.

693
00:48:49,041 --> 00:48:50,841
It's just like it is what it is.

694
00:48:51,081 --> 00:48:52,361
I guess it's like, what is a woman?

695
00:48:53,121 --> 00:48:54,541
Someone who identifies as a woman.

696
00:48:54,721 --> 00:48:55,981
So it's like, what is Bitcoin?

697
00:48:55,981 --> 00:48:59,121
It's like, oh, whatever chain identifies as Bitcoin.

698
00:48:59,421 --> 00:49:01,261
And it also has the most economic energy.

699
00:49:02,341 --> 00:49:02,781
Fair?

700
00:49:03,401 --> 00:49:04,501
That part's important.

701
00:49:04,961 --> 00:49:08,621
Yeah, it's like, what is Bitcoin?

702
00:49:08,841 --> 00:49:10,981
Well, I would like to caveat that.

703
00:49:10,981 --> 00:49:13,441
yeah that um

704
00:49:13,441 --> 00:49:25,121
bitcoin's name may change um so i'm i'm am talking about um i mean this this does get into

705
00:49:25,121 --> 00:49:29,041
the gray space where i want it's going to seem like i'm backpedaling but this is with the

706
00:49:29,041 --> 00:49:35,481
assumption that things things don't get weird where you have a chain that's still using shaw

707
00:49:35,481 --> 00:49:42,161
2v6 and then a new chain that's using like shaw 512 or you know shaw 3 or something this is this

708
00:49:42,161 --> 00:49:47,881
is a situation i want to i want to sort of box this in where you are looking at the chain with

709
00:49:47,881 --> 00:49:54,021
the most shaw 2v6 proof of work so obviously that comes with i mean this is like a completely new

710
00:49:54,021 --> 00:49:57,881
sort of conversation if you want to take it outside of that but i'm boxing myself in to that

711
00:49:57,881 --> 00:50:04,721
right yeah if that makes sense no no it it absolutely does i mean well i kind of box

712
00:50:04,721 --> 00:50:09,961
yourself to that then it gets we start getting like you know it starts getting it becomes a

713
00:50:09,961 --> 00:50:15,681
more complicated answer i'll just put it that way well you know can i can i ask like in in what

714
00:50:15,681 --> 00:50:19,661
scenario like let's step it step outside that box for a second we can return to the box but

715
00:50:19,661 --> 00:50:26,621
in what scenario do does that outside the box situation present itself like so how do we get

716
00:50:26,621 --> 00:50:34,001
there so going back to the the coma idea i wake up 20 years in a coma there's this uh project

717
00:50:34,001 --> 00:50:38,121
that's still using the same ledger as my old, you know,

718
00:50:38,581 --> 00:50:41,121
because right before I went into the coma,

719
00:50:41,341 --> 00:50:44,021
I was running version 30 of Bitcoin, which was malware.

720
00:50:44,301 --> 00:50:45,701
That actually took down half the internet

721
00:50:45,701 --> 00:50:49,221
and actually something fell on my head from the cataclysm.

722
00:50:49,641 --> 00:50:51,741
And that's actually why I was in the coma in the first place.

723
00:50:53,481 --> 00:50:56,941
And I wake up, we're on version like, I don't know,

724
00:50:57,801 --> 00:50:59,261
not much progress has been made.

725
00:50:59,421 --> 00:51:01,641
Like half the world's population has died at this point.

726
00:51:01,641 --> 00:51:04,141
So we're probably at version like 32 in 20 years.

727
00:51:04,341 --> 00:51:09,821
Like, you know, so 20 years, this is going to be 2046.

728
00:51:10,481 --> 00:51:18,661
We're in version 32 of Bitcoin and there's a SHA-2v6, you know, chain with the most work.

729
00:51:19,261 --> 00:51:25,281
However, there is now something that everyone is telling me is Bitcoin that's using SHA-3.

730
00:51:25,281 --> 00:51:34,041
and now i have a weird decision to make because it's okay like well how do i know how much energy

731
00:51:34,041 --> 00:51:38,081
is being put into this versus this because they're different hashing algorithms how do i know what

732
00:51:38,081 --> 00:51:42,881
asics advancements you know how do i know like how much energy is being put into this versus that

733
00:51:42,881 --> 00:51:47,361
when everyone's using the same hashing algorithm you sort of level set where you sort of have this

734
00:51:47,361 --> 00:51:52,381
abstraction of knowing how energy you know knowing this general idea of energy roughly speaking i

735
00:51:52,381 --> 00:52:00,241
I mean, obviously, there's caveats to all this stuff, but, you know, granted on energy price and costs and stuff like this, but you sort of have general ideas.

736
00:52:00,601 --> 00:52:10,541
If it's a different hashing algorithm, you sort of almost can't easily compare these things, at least not unless you're really technical, which at the point of this sort of technicality, I wouldn't know anything.

737
00:52:10,541 --> 00:52:17,701
I would have to, like, rely on experts or, you know, at that point, you know, 40 years or 20 years from now, maybe chat GPT can just tell me.

738
00:52:17,781 --> 00:52:19,161
He'll actually give me good answers.

739
00:52:19,161 --> 00:52:26,301
um but we're we're talking about a situation where like some crazy stuff happens and there's

740
00:52:26,301 --> 00:52:31,601
like a new mining algorithm and you don't really you weren't there to like understand the situation

741
00:52:31,601 --> 00:52:38,521
when it happened kind of thing so okay fair enough yeah so getting back inside of our box um

742
00:52:38,521 --> 00:52:44,441
i don't know how much you want to get into the the debate du jour you let me know because i can

743
00:52:44,441 --> 00:52:49,041
take this in a bunch of other directions too so like you let me know what you're feeling man

744
00:52:49,041 --> 00:52:55,721
dude let's let's go let's go hard let's do it all right okay so i feel like there's just a lot of

745
00:52:55,721 --> 00:53:01,301
people acting really retarded uh all over the place probably myself included i'm not gonna

746
00:53:01,301 --> 00:53:06,321
exclude myself from the retardation i'm right there with everyone else but it feels like a lot

747
00:53:06,321 --> 00:53:12,101
of talking people talking past each other a lot of people making straw man arguments um and i'm

748
00:53:12,101 --> 00:53:17,161
not talking about one side or another specifically here i'm just talking about generally right uh

749
00:53:17,161 --> 00:53:27,161
And man, it also just seems like a lot of people misrepresenting what is under their control and what is not.

750
00:53:27,161 --> 00:53:37,421
And I'm just kind of curious where you're sitting right now on all of this, because I published an episode with Jameson Lobb today.

751
00:53:37,961 --> 00:53:44,061
And boy, the comments on YouTube are fascinating, really, really fascinating.

752
00:53:44,061 --> 00:53:57,101
And I'm realizing I'm like, even at my like non-technical level, I'm like, well, you just like you said something that's just like really obviously not true or not the case or just like the biggest straw man I've ever seen that actually has no meaningful impact.

753
00:53:57,481 --> 00:53:59,581
And so like, I don't know.

754
00:54:00,381 --> 00:54:02,641
Is this is this actually a big deal?

755
00:54:03,021 --> 00:54:05,041
Does this actually like we're not talking?

756
00:54:05,121 --> 00:54:08,481
First of all, we're not talking about a consensus change right now that like a protocol change.

757
00:54:08,481 --> 00:54:11,501
We should probably clear that up right off the bat, like that.

758
00:54:11,581 --> 00:54:12,141
That's where we're at.

759
00:54:12,141 --> 00:54:14,701
But like, what is the state of things right now?

760
00:54:14,781 --> 00:54:16,661
Is this, you've been around a lot longer than I have.

761
00:54:17,021 --> 00:54:19,001
Is this even like a bad debate right now?

762
00:54:19,001 --> 00:54:24,581
Or is this just kind of like Bitcoiners being bored with sideways price action and needing something to bitch each other about?

763
00:54:25,581 --> 00:54:33,901
I want to send you a tweet I made that sort of sums up the situation.

764
00:54:34,821 --> 00:54:35,901
I just send this to you.

765
00:54:35,961 --> 00:54:36,381
Is that cool?

766
00:54:37,001 --> 00:54:37,401
Yeah, man.

767
00:54:37,601 --> 00:54:38,741
You can share it too if you want.

768
00:54:38,741 --> 00:54:42,721
I'm just going to send this

769
00:54:42,721 --> 00:54:45,141
I'm just going to send this to you

770
00:54:45,141 --> 00:54:46,341
right here on Twitter

771
00:54:46,341 --> 00:54:50,641
but this is sort of

772
00:54:50,641 --> 00:54:51,941
my take

773
00:54:51,941 --> 00:54:55,461
and I can read it

774
00:54:55,461 --> 00:54:56,781
unless you want to

775
00:54:56,781 --> 00:54:58,021
put it up there but

776
00:54:58,021 --> 00:55:00,821
if

777
00:55:00,821 --> 00:55:05,401
that's right up there too

778
00:55:05,401 --> 00:55:06,141
I actually

779
00:55:06,141 --> 00:55:09,661
actually sent you the wrong tweet.

780
00:55:10,361 --> 00:55:11,121
This is awkward.

781
00:55:11,121 --> 00:55:13,541
Well, this one actually maybe does the trick too,

782
00:55:13,741 --> 00:55:17,081
but that's not the tweet I wanted to send you actually.

783
00:55:17,641 --> 00:55:19,261
This is awkward.

784
00:55:21,381 --> 00:55:22,661
Get it together, man.

785
00:55:22,961 --> 00:55:24,661
I know, I know, I know.

786
00:55:25,301 --> 00:55:25,921
Here we go.

787
00:55:25,921 --> 00:55:32,701
I was quote tweeting Reindell when I made this.

788
00:55:32,721 --> 00:55:35,281
There's so much quote tweeting going on these days in the Bitcoin space.

789
00:55:35,281 --> 00:55:36,281
Wow, it's just like...

790
00:55:36,281 --> 00:55:37,221
There we go.

791
00:55:37,341 --> 00:55:37,821
It was a quote tweet.

792
00:55:37,821 --> 00:55:38,401
It's a quote tweet.

793
00:55:38,801 --> 00:55:43,561
I'll pull it up on the old share screen.

794
00:55:44,301 --> 00:55:46,281
So, Reindell says,

795
00:55:47,181 --> 00:55:50,241
sounds like you need to reject blocks with arbitrary data.

796
00:55:50,901 --> 00:55:52,321
I quote tweet saying,

797
00:55:52,501 --> 00:55:55,481
until this, this is the biggest nothing burger

798
00:55:55,481 --> 00:55:57,081
in the history of nothing burgers.

799
00:55:57,241 --> 00:55:58,821
I believe the logical next step

800
00:55:58,821 --> 00:56:01,461
are get not nodes to a super majority

801
00:56:01,461 --> 00:56:03,101
and UASF reject blocks.

802
00:56:03,101 --> 00:56:07,641
Not sure if that's part of their official public roadmap.

803
00:56:08,181 --> 00:56:25,962
So in other words this is going to have absolutely no impact until this happens Now a lot of people are going to disagree with me especially people on the not side of things but this is also a superpower right But I want to caveat it

804
00:56:27,762 --> 00:56:32,642
An economic node versus a non-economic node, the difference is almost night and day.

805
00:56:32,823 --> 00:56:42,323
So if you have a lot of economic nodes, you ASF, you have major disruption and the people are having their voices heard through these economic nodes.

806
00:56:43,162 --> 00:56:45,502
You start having weird things happen.

807
00:56:45,502 --> 00:56:46,782
with UASF.

808
00:56:47,063 --> 00:56:47,222
Okay.

809
00:56:48,182 --> 00:56:48,682
By the way,

810
00:56:48,863 --> 00:56:51,682
if anyone says that UASF has ever happened,

811
00:56:52,102 --> 00:56:52,682
they're wrong.

812
00:56:54,043 --> 00:56:57,123
This is where Giacomo and I split ways, right?

813
00:56:58,602 --> 00:57:02,063
This is where me and Aaron Von Weirdum split ways,

814
00:57:02,162 --> 00:57:03,422
although I do love his book,

815
00:57:03,543 --> 00:57:04,162
The Genesis Block.

816
00:57:04,222 --> 00:57:05,002
Make sure to check it out.

817
00:57:05,082 --> 00:57:07,422
It is the best piece of literature in the space.

818
00:57:07,422 --> 00:57:09,162
But this is where Aaron and Giacomo

819
00:57:09,162 --> 00:57:11,482
and those types and me, we split.

820
00:57:11,782 --> 00:57:13,182
We have never done a UASF.

821
00:57:13,182 --> 00:57:15,563
We have always threatened a UASF.

822
00:57:15,722 --> 00:57:17,582
We have actually never pulled the trigger on it.

823
00:57:17,662 --> 00:57:22,063
Now we have run node implementations that would have UASF under certain conditions.

824
00:57:22,282 --> 00:57:22,762
Sure.

825
00:57:22,902 --> 00:57:23,843
But it never triggered.

826
00:57:24,043 --> 00:57:25,023
It's not UASF.

827
00:57:25,382 --> 00:57:30,262
UASF is going to be the plebs nuclear bomb.

828
00:57:31,802 --> 00:57:33,962
And I don't know what that looks like.

829
00:57:34,002 --> 00:57:37,462
I think that is like the last experiment in Bitcoin that we've never done.

830
00:57:37,682 --> 00:57:39,422
So we've done forks.

831
00:57:39,843 --> 00:57:43,162
When Bitcoin cash happened, that was like the big like, okay, what happens?

832
00:57:43,182 --> 00:57:44,642
Do people sell their site?

833
00:57:44,802 --> 00:57:46,043
Does game theory work?

834
00:57:46,182 --> 00:57:46,702
What happens?

835
00:57:47,182 --> 00:57:53,762
This is the last thing that I can think of that we haven't done yet that is the experiment of Bitcoin.

836
00:57:54,023 --> 00:57:57,202
We've tested all the game theory of Bitcoin, more or less.

837
00:57:57,442 --> 00:57:58,142
More or less.

838
00:57:58,242 --> 00:58:01,343
I mean, there are some things you can arguably say that we haven't tested out yet.

839
00:58:01,802 --> 00:58:04,482
But the UASF stuff, we haven't tested.

840
00:58:04,482 --> 00:58:07,823
So, yes, I think Bitcoin will be fine.

841
00:58:07,882 --> 00:58:09,102
At the end of the day, it doesn't actually matter.

842
00:58:09,242 --> 00:58:10,102
Don't sell your coins.

843
00:58:10,182 --> 00:58:11,002
Just see what happens.

844
00:58:11,002 --> 00:58:15,802
wait for the you know dust to settle whatever don't don't try to be a hero and make an extra

845
00:58:15,802 --> 00:58:24,043
you know 100 if it means you're gonna actually lose 100 like just whatever like no need to be

846
00:58:24,043 --> 00:58:29,323
a gambler but you know eventually you can make that decision and it's less controversial in your

847
00:58:29,323 --> 00:58:37,722
opinion or whatever like let someone else take the beach you know but but like this we we haven't

848
00:58:37,722 --> 00:58:46,182
seen what a uasf looks like now what would happen to a uasf that is also minority economic like i

849
00:58:46,182 --> 00:58:50,623
think they just essentially fork themselves off the network but we just we've never done this

850
00:58:50,623 --> 00:58:59,202
before right um now if you do eventually start rejecting blocks and uasf like uh it's going to

851
00:58:59,202 --> 00:59:03,482
depend like what does coinbase do what does kraken do what does you know financial institutions do

852
00:59:03,482 --> 00:59:10,182
what do whales do do you know like what happens right like who who supports what and i it this is

853
00:59:10,182 --> 00:59:17,102
how bitcoin works so we'll see um now luckily historically whenever there has been some sort

854
00:59:17,102 --> 00:59:21,802
of contention there hasn't been a uasf there's been people who have forked themselves off with

855
00:59:21,802 --> 00:59:31,102
a new port with a new uh you know repo with a new you know like this is like like you know new

856
00:59:31,102 --> 00:59:35,782
like the networks weren't trying to like fuck each other you know the networks were disparate

857
00:59:35,782 --> 00:59:40,662
right the only thing that you really looked at was like okay bitcoin cash versus bitcoin price you

858
00:59:40,662 --> 00:59:44,182
know you got to see but they're like different networks different nodes etc like obviously

859
00:59:44,182 --> 00:59:49,102
coming from the same sort of parent source of truth so you got you know a split of the utxos

860
00:59:49,102 --> 00:59:56,682
but the split was more or less clean more or less like compared to a uasf would be um so

861
00:59:56,682 --> 01:00:05,563
So that's like a little confusing, I think, for a lot of people, because like, isn't the general assumption or the general conclusion like, yes, we did have a user activated soft fork.

862
01:00:05,563 --> 01:00:11,962
Oh, yeah. Like it's totally it's totally like people like Giacomo and Aaron Von Weirdum will say that.

863
01:00:12,023 --> 01:00:15,063
Yeah. So this is why it's so confusing, because we definitely did not.

864
01:00:15,242 --> 01:00:19,662
We threatened a UASF, but we actually never went through with it.

865
01:00:19,662 --> 01:00:27,623
We held Barry Silbert and we held the New York Agreement accountable for their misdeeds and corruption and malice.

866
01:00:28,523 --> 01:00:30,162
So we didn't have to do it.

867
01:00:30,702 --> 01:00:32,862
And Barry Silbert was like, oh, shit, y'all are crazy.

868
01:00:32,922 --> 01:00:33,722
I'm not going to do this.

869
01:00:33,823 --> 01:00:35,563
You're like, let's back up a step, you know?

870
01:00:35,623 --> 01:00:38,623
So, like, we didn't do the UASF, right?

871
01:00:38,802 --> 01:00:40,023
We made the hats.

872
01:00:40,323 --> 01:00:42,063
We made the hats for the UASF.

873
01:00:42,523 --> 01:00:46,962
That's the main tangible thing that we did for UASF is we wore hats, right?

874
01:00:47,582 --> 01:00:48,382
Cool hats.

875
01:00:48,843 --> 01:00:49,023
Yeah.

876
01:00:49,023 --> 01:00:51,002
I mean, that's how Bitcoin politics actually works.

877
01:00:51,082 --> 01:00:51,862
You have to make a hat.

878
01:00:53,222 --> 01:01:00,162
Make sure to check out shop.satoshisettlers.com to buy your hat for your preference.

879
01:01:01,242 --> 01:01:07,802
We've got to talk about Satoshi Settlers also at some point in this because I just logged in there and I have questions.

880
01:01:07,982 --> 01:01:09,422
But we'll talk about that later.

881
01:01:09,862 --> 01:01:11,302
I have questions.

882
01:01:11,302 --> 01:01:19,023
um okay so can can we maybe also just like since we're in the interest of uh asking like some some

883
01:01:19,023 --> 01:01:23,523
very seemingly basic questions but ones that apparently need to be asked can you just explain

884
01:01:23,523 --> 01:01:28,862
what is an economic node for people that may be uh may be still confused by that concept

885
01:01:28,862 --> 01:01:34,082
and what why that matters because i think there's like a huge misunderstanding on this

886
01:01:34,082 --> 01:01:38,662
yeah and i hope i don't mischaracterize an economic node because this is actually where

887
01:01:38,662 --> 01:01:46,082
these are things I never really even cared about because um I'm more of a proof of work sort of

888
01:01:46,082 --> 01:01:50,702
maximalist but if we needed to get into definitions I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to do a good

889
01:01:50,702 --> 01:01:54,843
job now I will tell you what I think they are it's just pretty much anyone that is doing anything

890
01:01:54,843 --> 01:02:00,162
meaningful where they have a service they have an exchange they have a wallet they have like some

891
01:02:00,162 --> 01:02:05,662
sort of like maybe like a custodial what anything that's like their node actually makes a difference

892
01:02:05,662 --> 01:02:08,922
on user experience and like accepting payments.

893
01:02:10,063 --> 01:02:12,082
You could almost, in my opinion,

894
01:02:12,343 --> 01:02:13,222
and this is granted,

895
01:02:13,402 --> 01:02:14,242
someone's going to say like,

896
01:02:14,302 --> 01:02:15,643
that's not an economic node or whatever.

897
01:02:15,922 --> 01:02:18,302
My sort of layman's opinion is

898
01:02:18,302 --> 01:02:22,802
how much financial volume are you processing

899
01:02:22,802 --> 01:02:25,882
with that node sort of helping you facilitate

900
01:02:25,882 --> 01:02:28,922
those receives or payments or whatever,

901
01:02:29,023 --> 01:02:30,702
or user experiences for people.

902
01:02:31,162 --> 01:02:32,962
So that's how I kind of, you know,

903
01:02:33,002 --> 01:02:34,302
define the economic node to myself.

904
01:02:34,302 --> 01:02:52,482
So if you're running a node that is just kind of sitting in your house, that is, you know, a node that, you know, isn't backed up to like a BTC pay server where you have like a web shop, you know, where you're selling hats, then it's not an economic node.

905
01:02:52,602 --> 01:02:52,882
Right.

906
01:02:53,382 --> 01:02:55,742
That's sort of how I'm defining it personally.

907
01:02:56,563 --> 01:02:58,482
I don't know actually what the definition is.

908
01:02:58,482 --> 01:03:02,362
yeah well the other characterization that i would put in there because i think part of it is about

909
01:03:02,362 --> 01:03:07,002
like actual volume passing through that node obviously the other part is just like honestly

910
01:03:07,002 --> 01:03:12,002
like bag size to a certain extent because like and that's at a like a less technical level just

911
01:03:12,002 --> 01:03:18,942
because it's like again if there is a fork so like you're gonna sell one chain and buy the other

912
01:03:18,942 --> 01:03:22,922
eventually right like you're you're gonna move and or maybe and you're right like if that does

913
01:03:22,922 --> 01:03:27,942
happen you should wait uh like but like that's another kind of thing that i would put on top the

914
01:03:27,942 --> 01:03:33,523
economic node definition is just like it matters if you have like just because you have a lot of

915
01:03:33,523 --> 01:03:38,302
coins doesn't mean you control bitcoin but it does matter in the like you can't control bitcoin

916
01:03:38,302 --> 01:03:43,063
but in the case of a fork where you decide to keep your economic energy and where you decide

917
01:03:43,063 --> 01:03:48,202
to sell it that does make a difference like that that does move the needle in terms of that market

918
01:03:48,202 --> 01:03:52,262
cap metric and that's like a thing people miss i also have this i kind of like wonder like once

919
01:03:52,262 --> 01:03:57,922
when i see things getting contentious i'm like are a bunch of ogs just like kind of itching for

920
01:03:57,922 --> 01:04:01,962
a fork because they wouldn't mind you know a chance to sell a bunch of forked coins again like

921
01:04:01,962 --> 01:04:08,182
is this just a big gambit to try and get you know make things contentious enough get a fork and then

922
01:04:08,182 --> 01:04:13,722
be able to dump a bunch of forked coins and buy more like actual bitcoin i don't know maybe i'm

923
01:04:13,722 --> 01:04:21,523
too conspiratorial i don't know so i made a tweet a while back when this first all got started and i

924
01:04:21,523 --> 01:04:26,802
was sort of joking because at that point it was just pretty much mechanic yelling out to the void

925
01:04:26,802 --> 01:04:29,942
before he got this huge rally behind him, honestly.

926
01:04:30,422 --> 01:04:31,602
I have to give it to him.

927
01:04:31,722 --> 01:04:35,722
He's great at getting people aware of a situation

928
01:04:35,722 --> 01:04:36,882
that he is concerned about.

929
01:04:37,222 --> 01:04:37,982
For sure.

930
01:04:38,523 --> 01:04:39,602
He is so good at that.

931
01:04:41,143 --> 01:04:44,162
Honestly, if this was going to kill Bitcoin,

932
01:04:44,902 --> 01:04:47,623
you would want people like Mechanic doing stuff like this.

933
01:04:47,762 --> 01:04:48,742
This is great.

934
01:04:50,802 --> 01:04:53,182
Arguably speaking, it's good that we're freaking out

935
01:04:53,182 --> 01:04:55,702
over something, in my opinion, that's not very harmful.

936
01:04:55,702 --> 01:05:02,442
So we're kind of like making sure people know that they have this power in case core does sort of misbehave and we actually need to fire core.

937
01:05:02,563 --> 01:05:09,543
I actually think this is good that people know that they have some sort of idea of what does it look like to hold developers accountable.

938
01:05:09,843 --> 01:05:17,063
Now, I'm glad we're testing it without it needing to be done, but I hope this doesn't delegitimize it later on when we actually do need it, if and when.

939
01:05:17,063 --> 01:05:23,902
so um sorry the original question uh uh the

940
01:05:23,902 --> 01:05:30,482
jesus i'm like losing my mind the original question well you you kind of you address

941
01:05:30,482 --> 01:05:35,262
the economic note question uh this is more about like whether or not this is just ogs playing

942
01:05:35,262 --> 01:05:40,202
playing games you know to try and get some forked coins which is just me being conspiratorial we

943
01:05:40,202 --> 01:05:44,143
don't even have to address it necessarily i don't even think i even somewhat answered your question

944
01:05:44,143 --> 01:05:51,343
I was going to somehow turn around to answer this question and I didn't even like that train of thought was going to like come here and I like stopped about right there.

945
01:05:51,343 --> 01:05:57,182
So, yeah, I don't I don't think there is.

946
01:05:58,402 --> 01:06:00,002
Yeah, I don't think there's like a.

947
01:06:00,982 --> 01:06:02,942
Oh, I remember where I was going to take this now.

948
01:06:03,702 --> 01:06:10,402
So what I was going to say was so I don't think it's a conspiracy, but I think Bitcoin naturally.

949
01:06:11,523 --> 01:06:12,882
And I don't know if this is the case.

950
01:06:12,882 --> 01:06:19,063
this is just a prediction i have very little amount i have very few data points on this

951
01:06:19,063 --> 01:06:25,482
but i almost wonder if like every x amount of years there just needs to be a churn

952
01:06:25,482 --> 01:06:31,643
where people get radically like dunked into cold water on what bitcoin is

953
01:06:31,643 --> 01:06:37,543
and like their perception of bitcoin like just needs to be like completely obliterated and their

954
01:06:37,543 --> 01:06:45,502
mind just needs to melt um and if this is just one of those events now i want to make sure it's

955
01:06:45,502 --> 01:06:50,662
understood i think luke and i've talked to luke extensively i've talked to chris guida extensively

956
01:06:50,662 --> 01:06:54,462
i've talked to people like matt hill extensively i feel like i understand their point of views i've

957
01:06:54,462 --> 01:07:04,123
never had the chance to talk to mechanic um but luke dash jr is very consistent when it's just

958
01:07:04,123 --> 01:07:09,162
me and helm talking about this really drilling into the specifics i have a lot of respect for

959
01:07:09,162 --> 01:07:15,063
luke because of its consistency long form luke uh there was a joke long form luke is way better

960
01:07:15,063 --> 01:07:20,123
than short than than than liar luke or you know like the short response luke like long form luke

961
01:07:20,123 --> 01:07:27,143
is good and i think uh uh i love bitcoin plus plus but i think like bitcoin plus plus did did

962
01:07:27,143 --> 01:07:33,162
no service to help this conversation at all and luke wasn't really given opportunity to to actually

963
01:07:33,162 --> 01:07:38,742
speak his mind on what he actually believes. I think very few people share, this goes back to,

964
01:07:38,862 --> 01:07:43,942
we're all sort of on the main channel, not score included. And we all sort of kind of deviate out

965
01:07:43,942 --> 01:07:49,702
at the further out you go, right? There is no normal, depending on how far out in that channel

966
01:07:49,702 --> 01:07:54,402
you go, we're all going to have different opinions. And Luke's opinion is very interesting.

967
01:07:54,662 --> 01:08:01,722
And I think is very unique. I think there's a lot of cargo cult thinking where people think that

968
01:08:01,722 --> 01:08:04,343
they have the same ideas as Luke and they definitely do not.

969
01:08:05,123 --> 01:08:06,143
Luke is actually,

970
01:08:06,962 --> 01:08:09,043
me and him actually have a ton of overlap.

971
01:08:09,762 --> 01:08:14,563
He's very consistent and addresses a lot of the things that I bring up to him

972
01:08:14,563 --> 01:08:19,203
about inconsistencies that make that seem like they're inconsistent on Twitter.

973
01:08:20,683 --> 01:08:22,163
But anywho,

974
01:08:22,402 --> 01:08:22,683
I,

975
01:08:22,882 --> 01:08:23,402
I have a,

976
01:08:24,163 --> 01:08:24,462
you know,

977
01:08:24,523 --> 01:08:25,882
so I don't think it's a conspiracy.

978
01:08:26,282 --> 01:08:28,002
I think this might just be a natural churn.

979
01:08:28,462 --> 01:08:28,962
This is a,

980
01:08:29,042 --> 01:08:29,663
this is a theory.

981
01:08:29,663 --> 01:08:36,042
um like you know we had the you know obviously with bitcoin cash and roger veer and you know

982
01:08:36,042 --> 01:08:44,023
losing mike hern and greg you know um uh we had we had a previous churn and before that we might

983
01:08:44,023 --> 01:08:47,842
have another churn with gavin andreason or something i don't know maybe that's still part

984
01:08:47,842 --> 01:08:54,563
of the roger veer churn but you know maybe it's like every eight years we have to you know we have

985
01:08:54,563 --> 01:08:59,023
to have our minds melted and it's just like you know we talk about the havings having happening

986
01:08:59,023 --> 01:09:04,842
every four years maybe it's like you know there's like a mind melt activity every two havings or

987
01:09:04,842 --> 01:09:13,902
something um so you know now with that being said i do want to say i have a lot of respect for the

988
01:09:13,902 --> 01:09:21,362
passion and the philosophy and the ideas behind a lot of people that subscribe to the knots camp

989
01:09:21,362 --> 01:09:27,822
right but i think the problem is they think they're in a camp right i just said they're in a

990
01:09:27,822 --> 01:09:32,322
camp. But really, the way I see it is unless they're willing to reject the block, we're all

991
01:09:32,322 --> 01:09:38,663
on the same team. And they actually, you know, we're actually just all Bitcoiners, whether they

992
01:09:38,663 --> 01:09:43,683
think there's, you know, this core knots debate or not. Your relay policy doesn't make you a

993
01:09:43,683 --> 01:09:48,922
different Bitcoiner, right? Your consensus policy mainly does. So you can have all the philosophy

994
01:09:48,922 --> 01:09:51,982
you want, that makes you a Bitcoiner. Guess what, you're not going to have the same philosophy

995
01:09:51,982 --> 01:09:57,782
as me, that's okay, we have the same consensus rules. Your relay policy doesn't make you an

996
01:09:57,782 --> 01:10:01,462
a different camp than me, even though, you know, we're sort of dividing it out that way.

997
01:10:01,462 --> 01:10:02,663
And it's been pretty contentious.

998
01:10:02,663 --> 01:10:06,763
So, um, yeah, I'm just kind of brain dumping on you, but.

999
01:10:07,143 --> 01:10:08,462
No, I'm, I'm glad you said that.

1000
01:10:08,462 --> 01:10:12,442
Cause I think that's one of the biggest things that I've tried to, tried to get a, get across

1001
01:10:12,442 --> 01:10:17,063
is that it's like, you're it's, it's Bitcoiners, you know, arguing with Bitcoiners right now.

1002
01:10:17,063 --> 01:10:17,462
And that's good.

1003
01:10:17,482 --> 01:10:19,042
That's part of this immune response, right?

1004
01:10:19,063 --> 01:10:22,342
That, as you mentioned, it kind of this, like this, this churn, like this keeps us, keeps

1005
01:10:22,342 --> 01:10:27,203
us vigilant and on our toes and making sure that when a, a real existential external threat

1006
01:10:27,203 --> 01:10:33,982
does emerge that we are able to just attack that thing. Right. But people seem to be forgetting

1007
01:10:33,982 --> 01:10:38,023
that it's like, we're not talking about a consensus change here. We're not talking about

1008
01:10:38,023 --> 01:10:42,982
a protocol level change. We're talking about a, like a mempool policy change. And then I've seen

1009
01:10:42,982 --> 01:10:47,302
this conversation just seemingly, and I stayed out of it for a while just because I was like,

1010
01:10:47,342 --> 01:10:52,763
this is, you know, nothing productive is happening here. I'm just going to stay out of it. And then,

1011
01:10:52,763 --> 01:10:58,063
you know, just more recently, I like decided just to kind of start poking in there with memes. And

1012
01:10:58,063 --> 01:11:03,183
that was a mistake. I guess people forgot that I'm a bit of a court jester at heart and that I like

1013
01:11:03,183 --> 01:11:07,842
to laugh. And if you can't laugh, that's, you know, other people are going to laugh at you.

1014
01:11:07,862 --> 01:11:11,083
And then those people would say, well, I guess you just want to exploit children on the blockchain.

1015
01:11:11,402 --> 01:11:18,063
And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. First of all, I've heard this one before. I've heard this

1016
01:11:18,063 --> 01:11:21,822
exact one before. Where have I heard this before? Oh, that's right. The fucking government.

1017
01:11:21,822 --> 01:11:26,742
this is literally like the government's playbook like are you kidding me second of all i've

1018
01:11:26,742 --> 01:11:31,342
literally heard this one from bitcoiners before myself included before i understood how like

1019
01:11:31,342 --> 01:11:36,563
things worked a little bit better back when uh inscriptions were popping off like this this

1020
01:11:36,563 --> 01:11:40,822
exact same thing was talked about at that point too people are going to put god only knows what

1021
01:11:40,822 --> 01:11:45,063
awful thing in the blockchain it's like some of that probably already exists out there heinous we

1022
01:11:45,063 --> 01:11:49,942
all like nobody wants that first of all nobody wants that like unless you are a sick twisted

1023
01:11:49,942 --> 01:11:54,882
fuck you don't want that and even the sick twisted fucks probably want to keep that shit offline

1024
01:11:54,882 --> 01:11:58,462
like because like why would you post something i mean i don't know but why would you post something

1025
01:11:58,462 --> 01:12:04,623
like a public like public blockchain that just seems just seems dumb like you already talked

1026
01:12:04,623 --> 01:12:09,102
earlier about like ip address tracing and stuff like that shit could probably be traced back to

1027
01:12:09,102 --> 01:12:17,482
you buddy and so like it just feels like we've moved goalposts constantly in terms of like this

1028
01:12:17,482 --> 01:12:21,942
is what the biggest threat to Bitcoin is. And like if core V30 is released, it's going to be

1029
01:12:21,942 --> 01:12:26,183
flooded with disgusting images. And you want to keep that on your node because the FBI are going

1030
01:12:26,183 --> 01:12:29,402
to knock at your door and kick it in and you're going to go to jail and everybody's going to hate

1031
01:12:29,402 --> 01:12:34,002
you and Bitcoin will be dead and it's all your fault. And that's what it feels like we got to

1032
01:12:34,002 --> 01:12:39,362
that really fast from just like where it started, which was, Hey, you know what? I kind of don't

1033
01:12:39,362 --> 01:12:44,223
appreciate like this particular core upgrade. And it feels like core isn't really listening to the,

1034
01:12:44,223 --> 01:12:49,342
what its users are saying. That's a legitimate, like a legitimate grievance, right? Sure.

1035
01:12:49,623 --> 01:12:55,902
Absolutely. But it went really fast from there to like, if you run Bitcoin core,

1036
01:12:56,143 --> 01:13:03,163
you are a child predator and want Bitcoin to die. Like, and that's just not, that's just not true.

1037
01:13:03,163 --> 01:13:08,462
First of all. And second of all, you running knots isn't, it's like, yeah, oh, we would, you know,

1038
01:13:08,542 --> 01:13:12,282
you put a fence up around your house. So to stop people from getting in, it won't stop them all,

1039
01:13:12,282 --> 01:13:17,822
but it'll stop a lot of them like yeah but except it that's not really the point is it because all

1040
01:13:17,822 --> 01:13:22,922
it takes is one well if you take your argument to like it's just it's all sorry for ranting

1041
01:13:22,922 --> 01:13:31,542
these analogies are so frustrating because it's like if anyone in the entire world has anyone hop

1042
01:13:31,542 --> 01:13:38,663
their fence your fence is useless and it's like it's like which fence how does this analogy make

1043
01:13:38,663 --> 01:13:45,322
sense when every fence is somehow parallel it's like the the the joke i tell people in response

1044
01:13:45,322 --> 01:13:50,602
to this is like is like imagine you have a solicitor at your door and then you like say

1045
01:13:50,602 --> 01:13:54,803
who the fuck is this you slam the door and then you turn around he's having like dinner with your

1046
01:13:54,803 --> 01:14:00,942
wife it's like that's how you think like this is what's happening and i'm like obviously then it

1047
01:14:00,942 --> 01:14:06,602
becomes a joke about them being a cuck but you know i i don't want to call people cucks even as

1048
01:14:06,602 --> 01:14:13,502
a joke because it's like dude you realize this is so stupid like like uh like like if you want

1049
01:14:13,502 --> 01:14:16,742
to come up with analogy we can come up with analogy but at least make one that makes sense

1050
01:14:16,742 --> 01:14:23,163
where it's just like you know like i like i like guy swan a lot but he he was like one of the people

1051
01:14:23,163 --> 01:14:28,723
that really liked this fence analogy and i was just like it's like it doesn't make any sense

1052
01:14:28,723 --> 01:14:35,123
yeah i i i also like guy a lot he's one of my favorite people yeah like this is the beauty of

1053
01:14:35,123 --> 01:14:37,822
To your point, you don't have to agree with everyone on everything.

1054
01:14:37,942 --> 01:14:38,282
Exactly.

1055
01:14:38,362 --> 01:14:38,763
That's okay.

1056
01:14:38,763 --> 01:14:43,263
Guy Swan and I will probably forever be friends in Bitcoin.

1057
01:14:43,523 --> 01:14:44,583
I highly disagree with them.

1058
01:14:44,723 --> 01:14:46,442
But also, who cares?

1059
01:14:46,623 --> 01:14:48,442
You can disagree with people on this.

1060
01:14:48,643 --> 01:14:49,882
It doesn't need to get weird.

1061
01:14:50,842 --> 01:14:55,002
It's getting, last week, between now and a few days ago, it's getting weird.

1062
01:14:55,402 --> 01:14:58,163
And I just sent you a tweet to your DMs.

1063
01:14:58,683 --> 01:15:03,942
And I think Justine Harper sort of sums this up pretty easily for everyone.

1064
01:15:03,942 --> 01:15:08,602
And I think it's like a very like this is pretty much the summary of what's going on.

1065
01:15:09,023 --> 01:15:10,083
I think Justine nailed it.

1066
01:15:10,282 --> 01:15:11,602
So I'm sharing that tweet with you.

1067
01:15:11,643 --> 01:15:14,202
I don't know if you want to pull it up, but that is that's my take.

1068
01:15:19,303 --> 01:15:20,402
You're muted, by the way.

1069
01:15:20,842 --> 01:15:23,202
I don't know if you're talking to me, but I sure was.

1070
01:15:23,282 --> 01:15:26,462
Sorry, I could I could hear my little guy making some noise downstairs.

1071
01:15:27,042 --> 01:15:28,663
I'm making a lot of noise downstairs.

1072
01:15:29,362 --> 01:15:32,902
So, so, yeah, you know that game.

1073
01:15:33,942 --> 01:15:38,563
all right i'm gonna go ahead and now i hear my dog going off man it's it's all going crazy

1074
01:15:38,563 --> 01:15:43,442
the good part is i can't hear anything everything sounds really good so thank goodness for these

1075
01:15:43,442 --> 01:15:52,303
fantastic mics okay okay so oops i went went went to the wrong one i was i've been dude i've been on

1076
01:15:52,303 --> 01:16:01,602
such a uh such a where the heck did it go i lost it now i'm gonna find it again i've been on such

1077
01:16:01,602 --> 01:16:08,482
a kick of bookmarking and saving and screenshotting so many tweets just to later remind people of the

1078
01:16:08,482 --> 01:16:14,303
links that they went to do you ever bookmark within twitter or do you like bookmark in the

1079
01:16:14,303 --> 01:16:23,583
browser what do you oh no no i bookmark i bookmark uh within uh within twitter okay yeah yeah you have

1080
01:16:23,583 --> 01:16:28,623
like custom bookmark labels and stuff yeah i'm i mean and like most of the time i don't even

1081
01:16:28,623 --> 01:16:34,742
like go back to them um okay let's go to here there you go can you see that now

1082
01:16:34,742 --> 01:16:43,223
yeah is that on justine's okay this is this is when um this guy who i just learned about this

1083
01:16:43,223 --> 01:16:54,623
year matthew crater um who apparently runs a university some education thing he has a youtube

1084
01:16:54,623 --> 01:16:58,643
channel yeah yeah and apparently has onboarded people into bitcoin so i assume he's done good

1085
01:16:58,643 --> 01:17:08,282
work to be famous but uh yeah i'll read this like in this direction yeah yeah for uh so basically

1086
01:17:08,282 --> 01:17:14,123
crowder says for anyone that's listening after the fact is bitcoin core v30 a nation state level

1087
01:17:14,123 --> 01:17:18,942
attack on bitcoin that forces bitcoin node runners to host and distribute child prawn

1088
01:17:18,942 --> 01:17:25,263
extremely disturbing quote tweeting a mechanic uh saying that you know uh let's see there's no

1089
01:17:25,263 --> 01:17:28,523
context in which you would let random anonymous strangers host 100 kilobytes files in your

1090
01:17:28,523 --> 01:17:35,782
computer uh uh ringdale says sounds like you need to reject blocks with arbitrary data

1091
01:17:35,782 --> 01:17:40,602
cratter says his taproot wizards enabled some of those cp inscriptions founders board executives

1092
01:17:40,602 --> 01:17:46,263
and even employees could face criminal prosecution for that justine harper responds with you guys are

1093
01:17:46,263 --> 01:17:53,263
really becoming unhinged in a way I didn't think was possible, which, yeah.

1094
01:17:53,263 --> 01:17:55,583
I think that's really it.

1095
01:17:55,842 --> 01:18:05,303
I mean, this is just becoming where it was, where the entirety of Knott's folks were like,

1096
01:18:05,482 --> 01:18:07,002
okay, you're all passionate.

1097
01:18:07,282 --> 01:18:08,282
You want your voice to be heard.

1098
01:18:08,942 --> 01:18:10,143
You think this is an attack on Bitcoin.

1099
01:18:10,143 --> 01:18:16,882
this might set a precedence that signals to bad things in the future.

1100
01:18:17,362 --> 01:18:19,063
And I can sympathize with that.

1101
01:18:19,342 --> 01:18:24,322
I can get it, even if there's no technical merit or technical reason for,

1102
01:18:25,023 --> 01:18:26,763
or there's no technical harm that will happen.

1103
01:18:26,922 --> 01:18:29,163
You're saying that this is a cultural sort of shift,

1104
01:18:29,202 --> 01:18:33,422
and it sets a bad precedence, and it's not good for the overall health

1105
01:18:33,422 --> 01:18:36,502
that is hard to measure going forward into the future, whatever.

1106
01:18:36,502 --> 01:18:39,063
Okay, I can sympathize with that, whatever.

1107
01:18:39,063 --> 01:18:43,202
But then it gets to this and you're just like, wait, what?

1108
01:18:43,842 --> 01:18:49,223
Like, first off, this has nothing to do like with off return.

1109
01:18:49,683 --> 01:18:58,422
You're bringing in a completely new idea to sort of like, is it because that the conversations have dried up and you've run out of ideas?

1110
01:18:58,583 --> 01:19:03,502
Is it because you're getting desperate for some reason for relevance?

1111
01:19:03,502 --> 01:19:09,583
and and and it's like anything that mechanic sort of talks about now it's like it kind of trickles

1112
01:19:09,583 --> 01:19:15,183
down to like four or five people that then sort of amplify it like what in the hell is going on

1113
01:19:15,183 --> 01:19:18,803
like this is sort of like insane to me so

1114
01:19:18,803 --> 01:19:25,663
yeah i think people and i would hate to i would hate to um

1115
01:19:25,663 --> 01:19:32,163
like just be wrong about this because i don't know what's going on but like it just seems

1116
01:19:32,163 --> 01:19:40,282
like people are out for some sort of like relevance but i don't i don't want to i don't

1117
01:19:40,282 --> 01:19:44,143
want to like assume that's the case i want to assume that everything is genuine and like they're

1118
01:19:44,143 --> 01:19:48,462
on the up and up and they actually really truly believe this but it's hard for me to like to think

1119
01:19:48,462 --> 01:19:53,422
that someone who potentially has thought really deeply about bitcoin would actually use this as a

1120
01:19:53,422 --> 01:19:58,523
serious talking point so that's the part where it gets really weird i i hear you and it's like

1121
01:19:58,523 --> 01:20:05,962
Because again, you know, the second you start dismissing stuff, then you're just a courtard who thinks he's better than everyone else and won't listen to the things that the plebs are saying.

1122
01:20:06,442 --> 01:20:09,822
And I think that like the, I mean, there's a couple of points here.

1123
01:20:10,763 --> 01:20:18,822
One is that like, you're right that it's completely missing the point of kind of the, like what the argument is, right?

1124
01:20:18,822 --> 01:20:22,442
Like we're not even talking about the same thing anymore.

1125
01:20:22,442 --> 01:20:34,602
And I understand completely where people are coming from and why they would get riled up about one feeling as though their voices are somehow not heard when it comes to development that happens.

1126
01:20:34,602 --> 01:20:37,523
I can understand why that would would rile somebody up.

1127
01:20:37,623 --> 01:20:39,702
I can understand why it would rile somebody up.

1128
01:20:40,002 --> 01:20:44,663
The thought of people putting disgusting images of children anywhere like that.

1129
01:20:44,663 --> 01:20:56,482
I think as anyone who is a dad, especially, yeah, that riles you up, makes you sick to your stomach and makes you want to like, you know, it makes you really glad that those kind of people get the ever loving shit kicked out of them when they get into prison.

1130
01:20:56,482 --> 01:21:06,763
Like rightly so, like you should, they should be, well, I don't know if I can say this because later it might go up on YouTube, but they should have horrible, horrible, horrible things done to them.

1131
01:21:07,183 --> 01:21:09,083
And they should never walk free again.

1132
01:21:09,362 --> 01:21:13,523
I think everyone's on that same page unless you are one of those sick fucks, right?

1133
01:21:13,523 --> 01:21:19,882
I don't think that anyone, okay, not the vast majority of people, the people that are arguing

1134
01:21:19,882 --> 01:21:24,663
back and forth with each other, neither of them want Bitcoin to be full of monkey JPEGs, right?

1135
01:21:24,683 --> 01:21:27,982
And that's where this all started. It started with monkey JPEGs and now it's like, you want

1136
01:21:27,982 --> 01:21:32,962
pictures of children up there. And it's like, nope, nope, I don't think any of us want that.

1137
01:21:33,583 --> 01:21:37,962
The question is not that, none of us want that. The question is whether or not what you're proposing

1138
01:21:37,962 --> 01:21:43,922
actually works in any meaningful way and like this is how i first waded into this conversation

1139
01:21:43,922 --> 01:21:48,083
was it made one mean being like you know how do filters work and like that's and i was like that's

1140
01:21:48,083 --> 01:21:52,763
the neat part they don't and people i didn't realize how pissed off everyone was until everyone

1141
01:21:52,763 --> 01:21:58,342
came after me and they're like i think didn't know you were a big dumb retard fuck like i think i i

1142
01:21:58,342 --> 01:22:02,702
think i liked that post by the way i thought that was really funny i thought it was a great mean

1143
01:22:02,702 --> 01:22:08,143
yeah i mean it's really funny yeah yeah it's it's it's it's a shame but i mean

1144
01:22:08,143 --> 01:22:15,922
is the it's a shame it's a shame it's a shame that the rational view is the most criticized

1145
01:22:15,922 --> 01:22:22,563
uh right now so anyways and well yeah i mean what are you gonna say what i well i was just curious

1146
01:22:22,563 --> 01:22:30,123
like just based on your tweet earlier is where this ends up going that like because not not

1147
01:22:30,123 --> 01:22:37,422
doesn't actually do anything unless you have a critical mass, right? Like there's no way the

1148
01:22:37,422 --> 01:22:41,023
Nots node runners actually have any impact whatsoever in any meaningful way besides

1149
01:22:41,023 --> 01:22:45,542
keeping that filth off my node, which like, great, run whatever you want. I don't care.

1150
01:22:46,023 --> 01:22:50,223
But like, you know, to characterize people who are running a different software than you

1151
01:22:50,223 --> 01:22:56,563
as enabling horrible, disgusting exploitation of children is really dishonest and just frankly

1152
01:22:56,563 --> 01:23:00,482
stupid like does this ultimately though is that is the game theory is this plays out just like

1153
01:23:00,482 --> 01:23:06,342
if it continues this way it ends up somehow leading to some sort of a fork or like an actual

1154
01:23:06,342 --> 01:23:13,223
consensus change versus this is just a mempool policy you're right but this this the the problem

1155
01:23:13,223 --> 01:23:18,902
is where it's being taken right now by people like mechanic or matthew crater whoever is like

1156
01:23:18,902 --> 01:23:26,782
this has been the age-old problem of bulletin boards internet nostr like this is not a unique

1157
01:23:26,782 --> 01:23:34,023
problem to bitcoin this is not even like if anything bitcoin is spam resistant because of

1158
01:23:34,023 --> 01:23:43,563
the fucking fees it's the it's the most spam resistant per byte data thing that we have in

1159
01:23:43,563 --> 01:23:50,382
the world right now probably like unless you want to get you know some actually you know kind of

1160
01:23:50,382 --> 01:23:57,803
thing but like per byte bitcoin is the most expensive and the most like spam resistant

1161
01:23:57,803 --> 01:24:06,422
so we already are using like the best technology to prevent bullshit when bullshit gets through

1162
01:24:06,422 --> 01:24:13,183
it's like okay like that's that's how that's like these are the principles of bitcoin to to have like

1163
01:24:13,183 --> 01:24:18,782
you know this freedom tech that you can't control you're gonna have bad things go on it and like

1164
01:24:18,782 --> 01:24:25,742
when Zebedee was running Noster I mean dude we had all types of terrible things just start flooding

1165
01:24:25,742 --> 01:24:38,344
into our relay and guess what we deleted them we we removed them we didn display them you know like what kind of crazy thing would you have to think about to be like oh I going to run this special piece of

1166
01:24:38,344 --> 01:24:46,244
software that reads op returns or scans this and then XORs it this way and then displays it with a

1167
01:24:46,244 --> 01:24:51,784
finder. Like you're, if you're looking for it, you're looking for it. That's on you. Like it's,

1168
01:24:51,784 --> 01:25:00,604
This isn't something like the Bitcoin software that interfaces with us is going to be super dry that doesn't do anything with images.

1169
01:25:00,764 --> 01:25:05,024
It's going to be up to you on whether or not you want to consider bytes into images.

1170
01:25:06,484 --> 01:25:08,244
I think it's ridiculous.

1171
01:25:08,484 --> 01:25:14,944
And there's just so many other things that are going to be cheap and going to be like right there in your face.

1172
01:25:14,944 --> 01:25:26,004
I mean, this is like, like what you said earlier, it's like, this is what the, this is like the, the attacking points where, where they, they try to find like the hearts and souls of voters to vote for something like totalitarian.

1173
01:25:26,004 --> 01:25:33,924
Like this is, you're going for the same playbook that, that also like helped us get like, you know, like the Patriot Act and stuff.

1174
01:25:33,924 --> 01:25:41,164
It's like, you know, it's, it's just, you're, you're, you're going for, it's like, like the meme is like, okay, how are we going to wrap this one?

1175
01:25:41,184 --> 01:25:43,344
Is it going to be terrorism or protect the children?

1176
01:25:43,344 --> 01:25:47,344
And it's like, you know, you start pulling at the heartstrings of people.

1177
01:25:47,504 --> 01:25:49,444
It's easy to get people emotional about this.

1178
01:25:49,544 --> 01:25:53,224
And it's super, I would say, manipulative.

1179
01:25:54,964 --> 01:25:55,444
Yeah.

1180
01:25:55,564 --> 01:25:58,004
I mean, I agree with that.

1181
01:25:58,264 --> 01:26:02,904
Is there any long-term risk from this, like to play devil's advocate,

1182
01:26:03,004 --> 01:26:07,504
or long-term risk from like an actual ability to run a node standpoint?

1183
01:26:07,504 --> 01:26:10,604
Like, take this to this worst-case scenario.

1184
01:26:10,604 --> 01:26:18,684
Does this allow the chain to be bloated to such a degree that it will be impossible for people in third world countries to ever be able to afford to run a node?

1185
01:26:20,164 --> 01:26:21,604
Yeah, that's a great question.

1186
01:26:21,744 --> 01:26:27,284
I'm really happy when people ask this because – and I don't know if you're asking it rhetorically or genuinely, but regardless –

1187
01:26:27,284 --> 01:26:27,584
Both.

1188
01:26:29,224 --> 01:26:36,544
But regardless, like people need to realize if op return is used, you do not get the witness discount.

1189
01:26:36,544 --> 01:26:43,964
I want to really just take a step back and summarize that this makes the Bitcoin blockchain smaller.

1190
01:26:44,124 --> 01:26:55,804
That might sound unintuitive, but that's ultimately what happens because you prevent the blockchain from bloating and taking advantage of cheaper style transactions if op return gets exploited.

1191
01:26:55,804 --> 01:27:01,004
The argument mainly has been there is no need for useless filters.

1192
01:27:01,004 --> 01:27:06,144
Let's remove unnecessary configs if they have no good ideas of defaults.

1193
01:27:06,144 --> 01:27:07,524
This is how all software works.

1194
01:27:07,604 --> 01:27:20,944
You want to remove unnecessary toggles because better user experience is giving people meaningful knobs, not just multiple knobs that don't do anything that could potentially even make your node run less performant.

1195
01:27:21,704 --> 01:27:25,584
And whether you relay it or not, you're going to have to download it.

1196
01:27:25,584 --> 01:27:34,304
It's going to go into your Bitcoin blockchain unless you really want to say like, hey, everyone in the world is going to run this relay policy.

1197
01:27:34,304 --> 01:27:37,664
Well, at that point, if it's non-controversial, we might as well just make it a consensus change.

1198
01:27:38,524 --> 01:27:38,844
Right.

1199
01:27:39,224 --> 01:27:39,584
Ultimately.

1200
01:27:39,844 --> 01:27:44,824
Now, Luke actually has a good response to this, by the way, which I can share.

1201
01:27:45,804 --> 01:27:55,664
But it's, you know, when you take these things out, a lot of these things are like misconceptions, right?

1202
01:27:55,724 --> 01:27:59,564
Like, oh, if we have large op returns, my blockchain will bloat.

1203
01:27:59,784 --> 01:28:01,864
I'm going to hold all this bullshit data, blah, blah, blah.

1204
01:28:01,864 --> 01:28:06,304
like you're like technically speaking if you're like a hodler and you're worried about like

1205
01:28:06,304 --> 01:28:13,544
especially for like from like ironically right ironically ocean folks like mechanic and luke

1206
01:28:13,544 --> 01:28:21,884
are advertising 300 kilobyte blocks right which is which is uh if you still include witness

1207
01:28:21,884 --> 01:28:28,084
of ideas it's a 70 reduction in how many transactions can happen in bitcoin per 10

1208
01:28:28,084 --> 01:28:34,224
minutes, right? That's what Luke and Mechanic are doing. And for reasons that aren't necessarily bad

1209
01:28:34,224 --> 01:28:37,304
or good or whatever, they're just trying to say like, hey, we need to make sure that this doesn't

1210
01:28:37,304 --> 01:28:41,504
get out of control in terms of how much data gets processed into Bitcoin. Now, ironically,

1211
01:28:41,924 --> 01:28:48,224
if people abuse op returns, it actually helps satisfy their lowering of the block size or,

1212
01:28:48,404 --> 01:28:52,944
you know, effective block size will be lower if a lot of large op returns get into the block. So

1213
01:28:52,944 --> 01:28:59,244
on a technical basis there is no they're there right even even like when you start saying like

1214
01:28:59,244 --> 01:29:03,024
hey you want smaller blocks like shouldn't you want like these op returns are actually

1215
01:29:03,024 --> 01:29:10,464
going to make the block smaller right like anyways um well i mean is that and is that

1216
01:29:10,464 --> 01:29:18,724
because they are prunable no like you so they're prunable yes which is nice because

1217
01:29:18,724 --> 01:29:20,804
But you still have to sync them the first time.

1218
01:29:21,244 --> 01:29:21,704
Right.

1219
01:29:21,784 --> 01:29:28,504
You still want to be able to verify a block matches all the way up to the hash of the block, ultimately.

1220
01:29:29,424 --> 01:29:33,644
But op returns don't need to be in your UTXO set, right?

1221
01:29:33,644 --> 01:29:42,624
The database that is indexed, the thing that people care about, right, in terms of keeping a live cache of indexed transactions, right?

1222
01:29:42,624 --> 01:29:50,124
Because you don't necessarily want to go through and care about all the transactions that have already been spent.

1223
01:29:50,544 --> 01:29:53,444
You care about all the current amounts of Bitcoin.

1224
01:29:54,344 --> 01:29:59,084
And the op return output is just like, oh, it's an op return.

1225
01:30:00,204 --> 01:30:03,544
My node software says to just drop this.

1226
01:30:03,804 --> 01:30:06,504
So you just drop it out of your UTXO set.

1227
01:30:06,504 --> 01:30:11,824
and you can look it up later, but it's not in like your UTXO set

1228
01:30:11,824 --> 01:30:15,444
that a lot of people are worried about in terms of like this is typically

1229
01:30:15,444 --> 01:30:18,304
the stuff that's kept in memory that's going to be highly performant

1230
01:30:18,304 --> 01:30:21,124
that helps your node verify blocks very quickly

1231
01:30:21,124 --> 01:30:25,624
when some of those UTXOs get used into the next block.

1232
01:30:26,104 --> 01:30:29,164
So you want to make sure that your ability to look up these transactions

1233
01:30:29,164 --> 01:30:32,664
is very quick and you want that in your RAM, your memory of your computer.

1234
01:30:32,664 --> 01:30:39,184
so um yeah the op returns don't even go there because they're unspendable you can't spend an

1235
01:30:39,184 --> 01:30:43,624
off return so you just say oh there's an off return okay bye bye off return like not in memory

1236
01:30:43,624 --> 01:30:49,704
like you know no problem um but there's there's tons of misconceptions like this like there's one

1237
01:30:49,704 --> 01:30:53,904
but there's like even like soft squishy misconceptions like not even technical

1238
01:30:53,904 --> 01:31:00,224
where someone was saying like hey you know we had them close their pull request you know the

1239
01:31:00,224 --> 01:31:05,084
peter todd pull request we had them close it but then while we're sleeping they opened up a new one

1240
01:31:05,084 --> 01:31:11,644
by instagibs and it's like dude the last comment of that pull request was saying hey we're opening

1241
01:31:11,644 --> 01:31:17,304
up a new one to not remove the option that you want to keep and it's like now like

1242
01:31:17,304 --> 01:31:23,704
it's like we're not even removing the configurability you know like we're

1243
01:31:23,704 --> 01:31:29,344
deprecating it but when i say we core um i'm not actually part of core or anything but i almost feel

1244
01:31:29,344 --> 01:31:31,484
like colloquial we,

1245
01:31:32,144 --> 01:31:35,044
Bitcoin is not removing the option.

1246
01:31:35,264 --> 01:31:36,104
And that was the change

1247
01:31:36,104 --> 01:31:37,104
between the pull requests.

1248
01:31:37,164 --> 01:31:37,884
And people are like,

1249
01:31:38,004 --> 01:31:39,244
oh, you close the pull request

1250
01:31:39,244 --> 01:31:41,144
to then just secretly open up a new one.

1251
01:31:42,764 --> 01:31:44,284
Like what?

1252
01:31:44,404 --> 01:31:45,524
And these are people that are like,

1253
01:31:45,624 --> 01:31:46,764
I'm a technical person.

1254
01:31:46,764 --> 01:31:48,164
I should be able to be involved in this.

1255
01:31:48,204 --> 01:31:49,564
I'm like, oh yeah, you know.

1256
01:31:50,504 --> 01:31:52,204
One of the other things I see get

1257
01:31:52,204 --> 01:31:54,284
that it's been brought up a ton recently

1258
01:31:54,284 --> 01:31:56,844
is people bringing up BSV

1259
01:31:56,844 --> 01:31:57,484
and they're saying,

1260
01:31:57,624 --> 01:31:59,004
well, this is actually what

1261
01:31:59,004 --> 01:32:06,104
caused bsv to fail because bsv got this explicit material put on their blockchain after they opened

1262
01:32:06,104 --> 01:32:11,284
up the uh you know after they opened up the upper turn limit and so if we do that that exact

1263
01:32:11,284 --> 01:32:15,004
thing is going to happen to bitcoin and bitcoin is going to fail just like bsv did and i feel like

1264
01:32:15,004 --> 01:32:20,484
that's a weird characterization given that like obviously like that wasn't the reason that bsv

1265
01:32:20,484 --> 01:32:26,644
failed like you know like what was bsv's block what was bsv's block size when that happened

1266
01:32:26,644 --> 01:32:31,524
Bitcoin was only protected from BSV because of that reason.

1267
01:32:32,124 --> 01:32:40,704
Like you have these people now that are going to praise whatever illicit material on BSV now because it saved it from taking over Bitcoin.

1268
01:32:40,904 --> 01:32:43,784
Like how crazy is it to think that, you know?

1269
01:32:43,784 --> 01:32:47,864
Well, can you maybe like – because for some reason this is a huge misconception.

1270
01:32:48,184 --> 01:32:55,064
Can you explain like why – like first of all, BSV, one of the whole things about it was it has a different block size.

1271
01:32:55,064 --> 01:33:02,284
like a vastly expanded block size uh was that would you say more like responsible for uh

1272
01:33:02,284 --> 01:33:07,304
everything that went down with bsv or were was it these other uh you know was it was it

1273
01:33:07,304 --> 01:33:14,764
opera turn that ultimately was the nail in the coffin for bsv so so i think it was really um

1274
01:33:14,764 --> 01:33:20,384
it's gonna sound weird but it was honestly roger veer that made bsv

1275
01:33:20,384 --> 01:33:25,664
delegitimate i mean roger veer still had a lot of respect from a lot of bitcoiners and

1276
01:33:25,664 --> 01:33:30,924
pretty much everything everyone in bitcoin cash the the fact that roger veer smelled a rat with

1277
01:33:30,924 --> 01:33:37,024
with uh craig just you just keep getting shittier the further forked away from bitcoin you go

1278
01:33:37,024 --> 01:33:47,224
and it's just like what killed bsv is uh is really just like how it it was such a

1279
01:33:47,224 --> 01:33:53,744
it's kind of like they co-opted the the the the bitcoin cash movement

1280
01:33:53,744 --> 01:34:01,044
took it even further in like a direction that you know was was sort of like insane

1281
01:34:01,044 --> 01:34:09,184
you know this is like you're you're asking like such a funny question like what was the reason

1282
01:34:09,184 --> 01:34:15,544
bsb failed it's like god it's such a funny question because it's like there's so many

1283
01:34:15,544 --> 01:34:21,924
things like involve whether it be with craig wright or or their giant fucking blocks like

1284
01:34:21,924 --> 01:34:26,544
or the fact that they said we just made like a terabyte block like look how great this is

1285
01:34:27,144 --> 01:34:32,424
like like it's just like like there's just so many things that like are are hilarious with it

1286
01:34:32,424 --> 01:34:37,184
um that is why it's such a dumb argument to bring up in this case like again there are better

1287
01:34:37,184 --> 01:34:42,504
arguments you can make you know what i mean it's just apples and oranges it's just so far like

1288
01:34:42,504 --> 01:34:49,444
it's just so far removed from like a comparable that it's it's like yes we can compare it in like

1289
01:34:49,444 --> 01:34:54,504
certain ways but outside of like this it's like these things are like just so different you know

1290
01:34:54,504 --> 01:34:59,964
um and it's comedically different especially with the people that were like promoting it right

1291
01:34:59,964 --> 01:35:05,184
and the and the people involved with believing like craig was satoshi and like having this

1292
01:35:05,184 --> 01:35:10,604
more or less cult following um of people like i remember that was also like around the time like

1293
01:35:10,604 --> 01:35:21,844
uh i got on clubhouse and there was like a bsv group and it's like it's just there's so many i

1294
01:35:21,844 --> 01:35:28,364
guess it's it's it's almost an impossible question you know it's like it's like one of those things

1295
01:35:28,364 --> 01:35:33,764
where it's like what came first the chicken or the egg like what came first like how did bsv fail

1296
01:35:33,764 --> 01:35:38,224
Was it like, you know, these two things that are like sort of cyclical?

1297
01:35:38,324 --> 01:35:46,964
It's just fraught with disappointment and misery and failure.

1298
01:35:49,044 --> 01:35:49,564
Scams.

1299
01:35:50,364 --> 01:35:52,844
Yeah, I mean, but I assume BSP is still running, though.

1300
01:35:52,924 --> 01:35:54,004
I assume it's still going.

1301
01:35:54,924 --> 01:35:55,504
It is.

1302
01:35:55,704 --> 01:35:58,404
It still exists, but yeah.

1303
01:35:58,404 --> 01:36:00,064
I guess it hasn't completely.

1304
01:36:00,064 --> 01:36:08,244
so 25 it's trading at 25 so if you if you wanted to trade your bitcoin in for it now you could

1305
01:36:08,244 --> 01:36:13,864
become a whale you could you could you could become a way there you go you know you too can

1306
01:36:13,864 --> 01:36:19,204
be a whale uh so i think i think another like actually i think a very like legitimate question

1307
01:36:19,204 --> 01:36:27,284
to ask from folks in the not side is like okay like sure uh let's say we that you're right about

1308
01:36:27,284 --> 01:36:31,244
some of these other things, but like, why does it, why is it even necessary to make this change

1309
01:36:31,244 --> 01:36:35,804
in the first place? Why can't we just leave things the way they are right now? Why can't we leave it

1310
01:36:35,804 --> 01:36:40,624
with the current opportune limit? Why does the limit need to be removed at all? Like, I feel like

1311
01:36:40,624 --> 01:36:46,364
a lot of people don't feel that that case has been made strongly enough to them. And I think that's

1312
01:36:46,364 --> 01:36:49,944
where a lot of this disconnect comes because they say like, okay, you're telling me this needs to

1313
01:36:49,944 --> 01:36:52,984
happen, but like, but like why? And then there's feelings that like, oh, well, this is, you know,

1314
01:36:52,984 --> 01:36:58,024
this is Citria or some other, you know, some VC or somebody's, you know, back channeling this and

1315
01:36:58,024 --> 01:37:02,624
that's why it's getting done. And that's the only reason. What is your feeling on, like,

1316
01:37:03,244 --> 01:37:06,964
is this something that needs to be done? And if so, why?

1317
01:37:08,064 --> 01:37:15,184
Yeah. No, this is, I think, this is a way better question than most. Unfortunately,

1318
01:37:15,184 --> 01:37:22,644
this is when people like Francis with Bull Bitcoin get very, I would say abrasive.

1319
01:37:22,644 --> 01:37:26,944
I've always considered Francis to be nice in person, but my gosh, is he abrasive on Twitter.

1320
01:37:27,884 --> 01:37:29,504
There's many such cases with Bitcoiners.

1321
01:37:29,564 --> 01:37:30,604
I like Francis a lot too.

1322
01:37:31,144 --> 01:37:37,824
So Francis, for instance, and I consider him a very nice guy when I'm in person with him.

1323
01:37:38,404 --> 01:37:40,864
And honestly, a fun guy when I'm in person with him.

1324
01:37:40,944 --> 01:37:43,604
But my gosh, is he a total asshole on Twitter.

1325
01:37:45,804 --> 01:37:51,044
So this is a good question that was asked, and I answered it two days ago.

1326
01:37:51,044 --> 01:38:03,204
I'm going to read this off, but I'll also just drop the link here for you because I think it's a great question.

1327
01:38:03,424 --> 01:38:06,424
And I don't think it's a quick question to answer necessarily.

1328
01:38:07,344 --> 01:38:15,544
So there's a guy named Merch, and he's a Bitcoin Core contributor, and myself.

1329
01:38:15,744 --> 01:38:17,844
And we're like, oh, this was like months ago.

1330
01:38:17,844 --> 01:38:24,244
We're like, man, there's a lot of people, right, that are getting upset about this op return change.

1331
01:38:24,684 --> 01:38:30,124
Let's take a lot of time and let's do like a FAQ.

1332
01:38:30,604 --> 01:38:36,284
Like let's address all of the questions that someone could have, right?

1333
01:38:36,844 --> 01:38:40,204
I will also link you that FAQ summary.

1334
01:38:41,884 --> 01:38:45,704
So that FAQ summary was 40 questions.

1335
01:38:45,704 --> 01:38:52,344
And we try to cover everything from like conspiracy theories to technical concern, right?

1336
01:38:52,384 --> 01:38:55,004
We try to do like a lot of in between as well.

1337
01:38:55,384 --> 01:39:00,464
And one of the questions was sort of like around the point that you're just asked, like, you know, why do we even need this change?

1338
01:39:00,764 --> 01:39:05,204
Shouldn't we just like even like raise it like to be just like 160 bytes instead?

1339
01:39:05,344 --> 01:39:07,124
Like why uncapped, all this kind of stuff?

1340
01:39:07,124 --> 01:39:15,144
essentially the answer is which apparently by the way just disclaimer is not was not acceptable by

1341
01:39:15,144 --> 01:39:22,524
people in in the knots group like francis for instance um instead of provide and i'm gonna

1342
01:39:22,524 --> 01:39:27,384
just read the last part of this post uh from the stacker news article that i shared with you

1343
01:39:27,384 --> 01:39:33,904
um and also the tweet instead of providing mining pools with a financial incentive to accept

1344
01:39:33,904 --> 01:39:43,024
oversize op return outputs out of ban and have to and to have to debates wait sorry out of ban and

1345
01:39:43,024 --> 01:39:48,944
to have debates to slightly loosen the limit further every once in a while it seems easier

1346
01:39:48,944 --> 01:39:55,464
to get rid of the incentive and debates by dropping it altogether so in other words this filter

1347
01:39:55,464 --> 01:40:02,264
has outlasted its usefulness it's better to just get rid of it now versus every once in a while

1348
01:40:02,264 --> 01:40:09,884
having to incrementally increase it for, you know, another sort of debate potentially in the future.

1349
01:40:09,884 --> 01:40:15,744
It's better to just, when we can, safely make relay rules and consensus rules as close as possible

1350
01:40:15,744 --> 01:40:21,624
within reason. And this is one of those situations. If relay and consensus rules were identical,

1351
01:40:21,824 --> 01:40:28,924
that's actually ideal. We can't do that because of certain technical concerns. This is not a

1352
01:40:28,924 --> 01:40:37,544
technical concern. I don't want to believe, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I don't want to

1353
01:40:37,544 --> 01:40:45,564
believe that originally we were super concerned about non-technical concerns with relay policy.

1354
01:40:45,724 --> 01:40:50,264
We're mainly concerned with people that are going to do like harmful things on the network and

1355
01:40:50,264 --> 01:40:58,184
our relay policy sort of helping with that. So this is one situation where relay policy and

1356
01:40:58,184 --> 01:41:06,224
consensus can start to become closer and a safe way and just dropping the um the the limit in

1357
01:41:06,224 --> 01:41:11,884
general just helps us get there and because there's already more effective ways this was seen as like

1358
01:41:11,884 --> 01:41:16,104
a nothing burger because it's like oh there's already if you really are going to be an asshole

1359
01:41:16,104 --> 01:41:20,204
this is the last way you would want to do it because if you did you would have to spend more

1360
01:41:20,204 --> 01:41:24,984
it would and and honestly it'd make the block smaller and like no one like you know like if

1361
01:41:24,984 --> 01:41:30,784
anything you know people who want smaller blocks benefit from this so ironically if anyone does

1362
01:41:30,784 --> 01:41:35,764
abuse this people like ocean people like mechanic and luke get their ideas of smaller blocks but

1363
01:41:35,764 --> 01:41:42,224
not even going to happen because it's not economically incentivized so that is sort of

1364
01:41:42,224 --> 01:41:48,324
the roundabout you know sort of a long answer but that's the answer that i have for you is there's

1365
01:41:48,324 --> 01:41:53,204
just no need for it better to get rid of the debates and future debates that are going to be

1366
01:41:53,204 --> 01:42:00,384
needless in the future um and yeah getting consensus and relay policy closer together

1367
01:42:00,384 --> 01:42:06,044
is always going to be a good thing if it's safe and this is an example of that um the 40 the 40

1368
01:42:06,044 --> 01:42:13,284
question q a is you know i i think like people at people on the not side of things at this point

1369
01:42:13,284 --> 01:42:17,284
are just not even gonna like at first when we posted that several months ago people were like

1370
01:42:17,284 --> 01:42:21,224
oh my gosh thank you so much this was great at this point people have dug in their heels so much

1371
01:42:21,224 --> 01:42:25,844
that if I show them this 40-question Q&A from Stacker News titled

1372
01:42:25,844 --> 01:42:30,604
A Comprehensive Op Return Limits Q&A Resource to Combat Misinformation,

1373
01:42:30,904 --> 01:42:33,244
they're just going to pretty much ignore it

1374
01:42:33,244 --> 01:42:37,984
and not actually care what core contributors have to say about any of this stuff.

1375
01:42:39,144 --> 01:42:43,424
I'll link it in the show notes for anybody who does care and wants to check it out.

1376
01:42:43,884 --> 01:42:45,804
I mean, and I want to be conscious of your time here,

1377
01:42:45,864 --> 01:42:47,944
but as just like another general question,

1378
01:42:47,944 --> 01:42:55,984
And again, I'm purposefully asking kind of broad or basic questions because these are the ones that I've seen posited out there again and again and again and again.

1379
01:42:56,544 --> 01:42:59,164
But, OK, you've got OpReturn.

1380
01:42:59,344 --> 01:43:05,064
The main argument right now is that you're going to be able to put big, big chunks of data in that OpReturn, right?

1381
01:43:06,064 --> 01:43:10,944
Is it possible right now to put bigger chunks of data into a Bitcoin block in other ways?

1382
01:43:13,664 --> 01:43:15,244
Well, thank you for asking.

1383
01:43:15,244 --> 01:43:37,784
I feel like some of these are rhetorical. Yes. You can do, you know, if you wanted to do a giant inscription that's four times bigger than op return for the same price, you can pretty much do it right now in Bitcoin. So right now there's options of putting in arbitrary data for 75% cheaper or 25% of the cost of op return.

1384
01:43:37,784 --> 01:43:45,444
so the and that's where i'm just kind of like i i don't see how this is a meaningful like how this

1385
01:43:45,444 --> 01:43:51,004
actually moves the needle when this is already possible like if you want to inscribe malicious

1386
01:43:51,004 --> 01:43:55,884
things in the bitcoin blockchain or insert them into the blockchain i'm not just talking about

1387
01:43:55,884 --> 01:44:00,344
inscriptions you can already do that right like this can already be done i'm not saying that's a

1388
01:44:00,344 --> 01:44:06,424
good thing but this i don't know if i i'm just maybe i just don't understand it maybe i'm too

1389
01:44:06,424 --> 01:44:12,084
stupid i just don't really see how running knots fixes this i'll tell you this if we ask francis

1390
01:44:12,084 --> 01:44:16,764
or chris guida or someone we will definitely be told we were too stupid to understand

1391
01:44:16,764 --> 01:44:23,844
so i probably am i probably am i don't know if you are um i definitely am depending on who you ask

1392
01:44:23,844 --> 01:44:25,804
so so

1393
01:44:25,804 --> 01:44:37,944
the interesting weird argument is like hey op return is a cleaner way of putting data in

1394
01:44:37,944 --> 01:44:44,744
so therefore the illicit material is more legitimized which i think is a bizarre take

1395
01:44:44,744 --> 01:44:52,224
and someone combated this uh you know in multiple ways there's been funny ways of people saying this

1396
01:44:52,224 --> 01:44:59,024
is like stupid um the the like the trope is if you put a red pixel every like 120

1397
01:44:59,024 --> 01:45:08,764
137 pixels red on a illicit material does it then not become illicit um like there's some

1398
01:45:08,764 --> 01:45:14,764
ways of saying like the witness putting data in the witness of a transaction is um is not as like

1399
01:45:14,764 --> 01:45:23,624
clean and it's and therefore it's not as bad and then if you if you if you have an off return it's

1400
01:45:23,624 --> 01:45:32,584
now it's terrible because it's contiguous bites um the arguments are very very weak in my opinion

1401
01:45:32,584 --> 01:45:40,324
um but that is sort of the the argument there on why you know i'm not i'm not going to say

1402
01:45:40,324 --> 01:45:44,504
that it's justified but that is an argument i've seen from like people like whiz kid or someone

1403
01:45:44,504 --> 01:45:51,904
else or whoever like trying to argue at this point i mean i'm for sure i'm i think i'm fully

1404
01:45:51,904 --> 01:45:57,764
canceled by the knox nots folks at this point you know after having lop on and now i'll have had you

1405
01:45:57,764 --> 01:46:04,224
on like clearly i'm complicit in uh in all of this uh but i i appreciate you coming on i think

1406
01:46:04,224 --> 01:46:08,244
the nice thing for people to remember is you can run whatever node implementation you want and

1407
01:46:08,244 --> 01:46:12,064
nobody can stop you and you don't have to update your node implementation either that's the really

1408
01:46:12,064 --> 01:46:16,524
cool thing about Bitcoin node implementations is they are not automatically pushed you. You are

1409
01:46:16,524 --> 01:46:21,224
not forced to update. So you just don't have to do anything actually. And they have to be backwards

1410
01:46:21,224 --> 01:46:25,824
compatible. And yes, you may be missing out on some security patches, but that's the whole thing.

1411
01:46:25,884 --> 01:46:29,464
It's all backwards compatible and no one can make you do anything with it and you can run whatever

1412
01:46:29,464 --> 01:46:37,224
you want. So just fucking do it. And yeah, maybe, maybe the last thing I would say is maybe ease off

1413
01:46:37,224 --> 01:46:40,764
on calling other Bitcoiners who also think Bitcoin is money

1414
01:46:40,764 --> 01:46:42,884
and use Bitcoin as money all the time

1415
01:46:42,884 --> 01:46:45,224
and have been working on Bitcoin for a long time,

1416
01:46:45,564 --> 01:46:47,844
maybe hold off on saying that they are complicit

1417
01:46:47,844 --> 01:46:50,604
in exploiting children on the blockchain

1418
01:46:50,604 --> 01:46:53,384
because that's just kind of like a,

1419
01:46:53,884 --> 01:46:55,464
man, that's a real government thing to say.

1420
01:46:55,924 --> 01:46:57,464
You know, that's, I don't know,

1421
01:46:57,504 --> 01:46:58,644
anything you want to leave us with.

1422
01:46:58,884 --> 01:47:00,264
I appreciate you coming on here, man.

1423
01:47:00,284 --> 01:47:01,164
It was good to just catch up.

1424
01:47:01,224 --> 01:47:02,584
I'm bummed we're not going to be at TabConf.

1425
01:47:02,684 --> 01:47:03,964
It was good to chat.

1426
01:47:04,824 --> 01:47:06,184
Yeah, super sad.

1427
01:47:06,184 --> 01:47:11,784
I mean, it's not very fun when we agree on everything.

1428
01:47:12,464 --> 01:47:16,004
I don't have a whole lot to debate with you on.

1429
01:47:17,124 --> 01:47:20,104
I hope I asked enough broad questions at least.

1430
01:47:20,804 --> 01:47:22,524
I'll see you on Satoshi Settlers.

1431
01:47:23,144 --> 01:47:25,244
I'll see you there.

1432
01:47:26,344 --> 01:47:27,964
Okay, maybe just really quick.

1433
01:47:28,124 --> 01:47:30,304
Okay, you launched something called Satoshi Settlers.

1434
01:47:30,404 --> 01:47:31,344
I just logged in there with Noster.

1435
01:47:31,464 --> 01:47:32,664
What are we doing with that?

1436
01:47:32,744 --> 01:47:33,344
What's happening?

1437
01:47:33,344 --> 01:47:40,784
it's a it's a project that hasn't been worked on in over six months uh i do plan to work on it

1438
01:47:40,784 --> 01:47:50,244
after tab conf but right now um it is i think a very cool idea it's a bitcoin like bitcoin

1439
01:47:50,244 --> 01:47:55,064
through and through as much as possible without it being spammed so there's nothing like on chain

1440
01:47:55,064 --> 01:48:00,344
that's going to be like you know messing spamming the chain or anything not yet thank god because

1441
01:48:00,344 --> 01:48:08,704
that would have caused a problem yeah well we'll do nfts uh after after uh knots becomes the

1442
01:48:08,704 --> 01:48:15,724
majority um no but but real talk as i think it's a pretty cool idea every 10 minutes a new block

1443
01:48:15,724 --> 01:48:19,484
roughly every 10 minutes a new block is mined so every 10 minutes the map gets a little bit bigger

1444
01:48:19,484 --> 01:48:25,104
so it's an ever-growing map where the center of the map is the genesis block and it's spiraling

1445
01:48:25,104 --> 01:48:27,124
outwards. So the higher

1446
01:48:27,124 --> 01:48:28,824
block heights are at the edge. The

1447
01:48:28,824 --> 01:48:30,604
earlier block heights are near the center.

1448
01:48:31,044 --> 01:48:33,044
And it's just a really cool metaverse that I'm

1449
01:48:33,044 --> 01:48:34,884
building that's just using the blockchain

1450
01:48:34,884 --> 01:48:37,264
data to fill in the environment,

1451
01:48:37,864 --> 01:48:38,264
textures.

1452
01:48:39,144 --> 01:48:40,384
You can use lightning.

1453
01:48:41,064 --> 01:48:43,084
I plan to, after TabConf, probably

1454
01:48:43,084 --> 01:48:44,224
implement ARC payments.

1455
01:48:44,844 --> 01:48:45,984
Does NostraWall connect?

1456
01:48:47,144 --> 01:48:49,084
I'm just trying to make it where it's

1457
01:48:49,084 --> 01:48:50,944
really cool. There is a Satoshi Settlers

1458
01:48:50,944 --> 01:48:53,124
Nostra page where every time there's a

1459
01:48:53,124 --> 01:48:54,824
purchase on the game,

1460
01:48:55,104 --> 01:48:57,044
or a theft.

1461
01:48:57,044 --> 01:48:58,704
So you can steal people.

1462
01:48:58,964 --> 01:49:00,504
You can steal what they've done.

1463
01:49:01,144 --> 01:49:05,344
But if you steal a piece of land from someone,

1464
01:49:05,424 --> 01:49:07,004
you have to pay double what they paid.

1465
01:49:07,184 --> 01:49:08,804
And the refund goes to them.

1466
01:49:09,264 --> 01:49:13,524
They have to put in their lightning address as a way for me to refund them.

1467
01:49:13,764 --> 01:49:16,424
So it's a fun little economy.

1468
01:49:17,444 --> 01:49:18,524
It's a forced sale.

1469
01:49:18,644 --> 01:49:20,324
So if you have a piece of land,

1470
01:49:20,604 --> 01:49:22,744
someone can always just spend double to steal it from you,

1471
01:49:22,784 --> 01:49:23,684
and then you get the refund.

1472
01:49:25,104 --> 01:49:29,284
and it's just a really like no stress kind of game.

1473
01:49:29,444 --> 01:49:30,804
Eventually there will be stress.

1474
01:49:31,024 --> 01:49:33,064
I am working on some gamified fun things.

1475
01:49:34,704 --> 01:49:38,364
Right now it's mainly just experimenting with lightning,

1476
01:49:38,684 --> 01:49:39,444
Nostra Wallet Connect.

1477
01:49:39,824 --> 01:49:43,524
Like I said, all the activity in the game gets posted to Nostra.

1478
01:49:45,644 --> 01:49:46,084
Yeah.

1479
01:49:46,624 --> 01:49:47,524
I love it, dude.

1480
01:49:47,904 --> 01:49:50,164
Every time there's like a cool new Bitcoin thing,

1481
01:49:50,164 --> 01:49:53,484
I'm going to try to put it into the game as like a fun way of experimenting

1482
01:49:53,484 --> 01:49:54,304
and playing with it.

1483
01:49:54,304 --> 01:49:59,124
that's sort of the idea going forward yeah i'm into it now i understand a little bit better what's

1484
01:49:59,124 --> 01:50:03,664
going on uh so i'm gonna i'm gonna have to have to dive back in there where can folks find you

1485
01:50:04,364 --> 01:50:15,324
uh tabconf.com is my passion right now um outside of my work um i would say on nostr i'm

1486
01:50:15,324 --> 01:50:23,004
well i go by mike 21 that's my twitter handle and i believe i'm also that um i have a few nostr

1487
01:50:23,004 --> 01:50:31,984
accounts that i'm maintaining but i think if you search mike 21 on nostr um i think you're also

1488
01:50:31,984 --> 01:50:39,844
primal.net slash like 21 yeah mike 21 it's it's confusing it's opsec it's 20 spelled out with a one

1489
01:50:39,844 --> 01:50:45,404
so you know no one will actually understand what you what i say yeah exactly i say my 21 they're

1490
01:50:45,404 --> 01:50:51,744
like it doesn't work i'm like yeah well opsec or you can just search you can just search uh tidwell

1491
01:50:51,744 --> 01:50:56,124
or titwell i don't know if that's going to show up maybe if you post it they'll they'll be a link

1492
01:50:56,124 --> 01:51:01,764
to me might just have to yeah right well i appreciate you coming on here it was good to

1493
01:51:01,764 --> 01:51:06,044
catch up thanks for answering some of my questions even if they did seem rhetorical because i think

1494
01:51:06,044 --> 01:51:10,684
like we're all we're all on the same side here ultimately like right we all we all want we all

1495
01:51:10,684 --> 01:51:15,444
we all want bitcoin to succeed and uh and people just have some different ideas of what that means

1496
01:51:15,444 --> 01:51:20,984
right now but uh the great thing is that bitcoin doesn't care uh so it's just going to keep on

1497
01:51:20,984 --> 01:51:25,664
processing blocks every 10 minutes. Keep on adjusting the difficulty, keep on having, and

1498
01:51:25,664 --> 01:51:32,024
yeah, we'll keep on podcasting, doing our part. It's been awesome to chat, Walker. Thanks.

1499
01:51:32,664 --> 01:51:33,404
See you, man.

1500
01:51:41,624 --> 01:51:46,304
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast.

1501
01:51:46,944 --> 01:51:50,904
Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening.

1502
01:51:50,984 --> 01:51:55,224
and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.

1503
01:51:55,584 --> 01:52:01,904
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash walker and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin.

1504
01:52:02,344 --> 01:52:05,764
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America

1505
01:52:05,764 --> 01:52:10,624
and find this podcast on X and Instagram at titcoinpodcast.

1506
01:52:11,044 --> 01:52:13,304
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links.

1507
01:52:13,424 --> 01:52:18,124
Head to substack.com slash at walkeramerica to get episodes emailed to you

1508
01:52:18,124 --> 01:52:21,904
and head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else.

1509
01:52:22,444 --> 01:52:26,004
Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant.

1510
01:52:26,524 --> 01:52:31,364
So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to The Bitcoin Podcast.

1511
01:52:32,244 --> 01:52:34,684
Until next time, stay free.