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As free people of democratic nations, of people who support freedom, we should also support privacy

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because without privacy we will not be able to exercise any of our rights in the future.

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So the conversation should go into a direction where we normalize privacy and enable it for

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everyone because that's a train we clearly missed when we started building out the

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internet infrastructure we have today. But I also am very optimistic about this because in

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recent years we have seen developments that were unthinkable a couple years ago with end-to-end

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encryption and master as decentralized social media. For example, Bitcoin obviously has unstoppable

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money that cannot be taken away from you and eCash is also part of that because it allows you to

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build systems custodial systems that are private respect your privacy as an individual and also

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cannot be censored arbitrarily.

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Greetings and salutations my fellow clubs my name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast.

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The Bitcoin block height is 832 156 and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.

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Today's episode is Bitcoin talk where I talk with my guest about Bitcoin and whatever else comes up.

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Today that guest is Kali, an open source Bitcoin and Lightning developer who is currently exploring

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Chamean eCash and starred Cashew, an open source eCash protocol for Bitcoin. You've probably seen

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a lot of talk about eCash recently on social media but if you're like me you may still have a lot of

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questions about what it is, how it works, and what it means going forward. So today's episode will

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answer those exact questions and probably answer some questions you didn't even know you should ask.

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We also dig into Noster, Scaling, Bitcoin, and even CBDCs using eCash. You can find all Kali's links

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in the show notes as well as links to other eCash projects built on top of Cashew. I highly recommend

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you check them out. As always you can watch the video version of this episode on Rumble, YouTube,

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or X by searching at Walker America or listen on fountain.fm or wherever you get your podcast

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by searching for the Bitcoin podcast. If you listen to the Bitcoin podcast on fountain which I

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recommend consider giving this show a boost or creating a clip of something you found interesting

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and if you're a Bitcoin only company interested in sponsoring another fucking Bitcoin podcast hit

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me up on social media or through the website BitcoinPodcast.net. Without further ado let's get

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into this Bitcoin talk with Kali. Now we are live. Well again hello and welcome to another

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fucking Bitcoin podcast. It's good to see you. Thanks for having me Walker. And so you know we

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were just talking a little bit before this. Usually I start off with the question to guests you know

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who are you and how did you get here today but for you I want to have the question just be

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what are you building today and what is your energy and attention focused on Kali?

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So I'm a Bitcoin developer and I started building mostly on lightning which I still do so I was

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involved in several lightning projects myself and in recent in the last year I've explored more

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and more Chomin eCash which you know I started a project called Cashew which is an open source

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eCash protocol built for Bitcoin and that's where I spend most of my time these days building

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software for Cashew and talking to other developers who are working on their own projects and working

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out a protocol with them so we can all speak the same language and build software that is

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interoperable under this umbrella. Beautiful and you know I think maybe for those who are not

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familiar or have been too afraid to ask at this point what exactly eCash is. The idea is

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obviously been around since I believe the early 80s right David Chomin like 82 wrote the first kind

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of paper about it but can you maybe give folks just a little bit of a background and a primer on

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how eCash came to be and then kind of where it has evolved to at this point because some of the

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early projects were ultimately failures prior to Bitcoin coming on the scene and then that providing

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a new vehicle for eCash let's say. So it depends where we want to start because this question is

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fairly deep right so but also just we'll just start at the beginning and we can go as deep as you like

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so Chomin eCash as the name says was invented by a genius cryptographer called David Chomin

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and this was 1982 so this is a precursor to Bitcoin by a long stretch and any kind of

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payments on the internet and online payments so David Chomin came up with this idea to build a

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anonymous payment system back in 82 that allows users who have a bank account for example to

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execute anonymous payments on that bank account because he foresaw already in 82 that most of

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our lives will be online at some point and we will be leaving traces for everything that we do and

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he anticipated that already in 82 which is amazing to think about because the internet was still very

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far away for consumers and so in 82 he came he comes up with this idea called blind signatures and

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figures that you can actually make a payment protocol out of this idea and so for anyone who

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doesn't know what a blind signature is the typical example that folks like to give in order to imagine

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what it's about is a physical one with the carbon paper and we'll do it here again so imagine so

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the idea of blind signatures is that someone can give you a signature on a document that they haven't

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seen yet but once you present them the document with the signature they can verify the signature

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was indeed from them so in a physical world an example might be a contract that you write for

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example that contract may say this contract is worth one bitcoin and you put that paper contract

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into a carbon paper envelope a carbon paper is where you know you write on top of it and presses

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through to to the document below so when you put this original contract the contract says this is

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worth one bitcoin into a carbon paper envelope and now send it for example to a bank the bank

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might say oh here's a contract and an envelope which i cannot see but i know that you would like

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to have a signature on it so please send me one bitcoin first and when you when you've done that

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i will sign the contract from the outside and send it back to you so you would send for example one

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bitcoin to this bank and the bank then provides a signature on to the envelope and sends you back

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the envelope and still close it never opened until now and when you receive it back you can

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actually open the envelope and take out the contract and now you have a signature on a contract

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that says the bank owes me one bitcoin and the nice thing about this is that this was a blind

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signature so the bank never saw the contract which means that when you next go when you take the

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contract and go now to the bank and say hey bank i would like to have my one bitcoin back please

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and here's the contract with the proof that you approve this then the bank cannot correlate the

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signature operation that it did before with the redemption operation that you're doing now and this

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is what gives e-cash the perfect privacy basically so obviously this doesn't happen on paper it happens

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with cryptography and you're the only person who can open the envelope because it was encrypted by

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you and so on and so forth but these are the details the general idea is the same you could

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build an e-cash system purely out of paper as well so that is the rough idea of how David Chong

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envisioned e-cash to work already in 82 but obviously not with bitcoin because it wasn't around but

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on the banking system so replace everything that i said with just dollars and the idea was phenomenal

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and very forward thinking and it caused a lot of excitement already in the late 80s and in the

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beginning of the 90s and big banks like Deutsche Bank and Credit Suisse and big players like Mastercard

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and Microsoft and they were all very very excited about this idea and wanted to build a future in

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which we can transact online with e-cash denominated in US dollars to buy stuff online and so on and

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so forth however unfortunately this beautiful future that we could have had never came to to

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reality because of several operational problems that the company that was building on this technology

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called digi-cash made some mistakes here and there you can research it yourself if you're interested

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why this business failed but ultimately there was a business failure of this grandiose idea however

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in hindsight we can also see that the idea dependent on the cooperation with the financial system so

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banks must have been on board in order to really build a system that makes sense right you need a

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bank to deposit US dollars to and then get the e-cash and so on so forth so that is also a very big

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friction point in the development of the story well then e-cash basically died so this went

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nowhere except for some experiments that have been done and no significant or meaningful

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adoption of this technology and then we waited all together for around another 20 years and bitcoin

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came about so bitcoin and satoshi Nakamoto also directly references xiaomi and e-cash multiple

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times and everyone was thinking about xiaomi and e-cash and how to improve that during those times

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especially the cypher punks satoshi then found a way to build money that is electronic cash not

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quite like e-cash that david xiaomi envisioned but it solved the problem of needing a centralized

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server in order to build a monetary system online so again as a just note on that as i explained

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before you need the bank running a server for e-cash to work but with bitcoin we don't need anyone

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specifically to run a server for us we the system is totally decentralized and bitcoin ultimately

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won and now we have a basically a base currency for the internet that everyone is free to use however

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they like so that was in 2008 when satoshi invented bitcoin which is around 20 years after e-cash has

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died so the history goes that we waited another 15 years or so until bitcoin matured and was here

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to stay and also established itself as the base monetary unit for the internet and in recent years

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we have seen again new interests pop up in xiaomi and e-cash especially from the bitcoin

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from the bitcoin ecosystem so two projects in the bitcoin ecosystem right now are fediment and

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cashew which are both xiaomi and e-cash implementations which built on the same idea that are just

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described but without the banks so essentially we're building custodial systems in a in a sense

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that can issue e-cash to the users without any cooperation of any bank or so you can just build

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it by yourself and then offer it as free and open source software and this allows us to build all

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kinds of online services that we're already building today but with much more increased privacy and

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efficiency and other nice things that you can do with e-cash so to make it very short e-cash

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basically allows us today to build something like wallet of satoshi but with almost perfect

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privacy so that wallet of satoshi doesn't know that you are a user how much you have in your

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wallet and with whom you're transacting i think these are the things that we will be talking

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about shortly but essentially and that's the thing to keep in mind e-cash is a way to build

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custodial applications with almost perfect privacy and it should have been part of our lives

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30 years ago but unfortunately it failed and now we're trying to fix the problem and see

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if we can build the system again on top of a free and open source system like bitcoin where you

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can innovate without permission that was an incredible primer on that i can i can tell you

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may have talked about this before but i i love it that's it's really important background i think

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and something that perhaps a lot of a lot of maybe more hardcore bitcoiners really appreciate but that

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many i would say many bitcoiners and certainly most of the normie population does not appreciate

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is just how messed up our current system for online payments is if you think about just even

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using credit cards online like every time you go to a website you want to and you want to check out

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you're putting in all of that information i mean and not just not just basically like the private

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key to your credit card you know you're putting in all of that detailed credit card information

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into an into a form but you're also needing to put your billing address you know all of that has to

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match like you are you are doxing yourself and exposing your personal financial information

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every time you want to make an online payment that it's really kind of messed up when you think

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about it that there isn't another way like you can't really buy something anonymously online

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there's until you know bitcoin came along there really wasn't a way to be able to do this and

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it's something that i think we've just kind of like accepted as well this is just normal this is

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just how things have to be done because we don't have another solution and that's what i think is

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so exciting about all of the the e-cash work that's coming out now whether it be fety or

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you know cashew is that this is an opportunity to do things right uh to give people the choice

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because that's what it all comes down if you want to put in your personal information you don't care

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fine but you should have the choice and i think that optionality is so important maybe uh oh yeah

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go ahead go ahead yeah just to comment on that because i also think that we've basically found

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ourselves in a trap where we accepted the reality as a given and um you know when you look back into

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the 90s how it almost succeeded you can see that after its failure and when when e-cash was off the

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table then only then paypal and credit cards on the internet really pick up so this was an opportunity

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to build systems from the beginning that respect our privacy david charme himself said that in

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order to have a functioning democracy you need privacy on a lowest level um in our society is

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very well accepted that we need privacy for communication but especially your activity

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online when you do small purchases you just you know you purchase maybe an mp3 song or you want to

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read an article online and you pay for the paywall or whatever you it is especially the smaller

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transactions that uh are not significant in an economic sense leave all sorts of uh scary metadata

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about everyone everywhere and we have ended up in a system where this is not only the case but also

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wanted because this data is also used to monetize uh on you after the fact that you have paid and

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is shared with multiple parties without you really uh understanding or consenting giving consent to that

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so uh charme e-cash is an attempt to fix especially smaller payments online and uh to give users back

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the privacy where it matters uh which which is mostly online interactions and on a small scale

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that we already do every day um every every day and everywhere and i think the other uh the other

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important piece there because you know you mentioned both paypal but then credit cards the other very

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important piece is that both of those are closed systems that you can be cut off from at a moment's

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notice if you buy the wrong thing if you say the wrong thing in a completely different uh silo

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and then paypal decides you know what uh sorry this goes against our policies and you're no

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longer able to use our service well now now you're screwed you can't use paypal okay your bank cuts

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you off you're not allowed to use your credit card it's really uh and i think a lot of americans uh

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as an american i'll speak for americans uh a lot of americans do not realize that that is something

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that can actually happen to you they they don't realize it because it's never happened to them

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but it's something that happens to people all over the world i was talking with kg uh last week who

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is building a machankura and one of the reasons he started building that was because his bank

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shut down and froze his account because he was trying to buy rights to the bitcoin standard

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online and they just froze his account without warning he couldn't get it back that's something

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that sounds you know crazy to a lot of americans but uh you know it's just a matter of time before

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these things happen to you so it's nice to have options and people don't realize you know if you're

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cut off from the financial system you are cut off from everything you know how are you supposed to

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exercise your right to free speech if you can't buy a plane ticket to go to a protest how are you

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supposed to exercise your right you know again to free speech online if you've been completely you

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know shut off from being able to pay for a subscription whatever it might be it's it's a

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really important thing both to have that privacy but then to have at least the censorship resistant

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capabilities that you know you can continue to exercise all your other rights because money is

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really you know being able to transact is the base layer of so many other exercises of rights and i

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think that goes over a lot of people's heads they look at them as separate things but they're very

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much you know conjoined yes absolutely and this is also i think it's always useful to think back of

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physical cash and what what beautiful and simple privacy preserving technology that isn't how well

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this is also accepted in our societies and obviously physical cash is being used less and less

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everywhere around the world because people prefer the convenience of paying with digital

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systems and i understand that because it's more convenient to do it becomes more and more popular

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and with e-cash you can achieve a very similar privacy level as with digital with physical

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cash by building something very similar to to that in the online space and so i think there is this

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nice saying that that says you know if physical cash was invented today it would probably be illegal

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and that just gives you this perspective of how fast things can change in terms of what is accepted

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in society and whatnot and especially what is deemed okay in society today can change very very

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quickly in the future and as as free people of democratic nations of people who support freedom

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we should also support privacy because without privacy we will not be able to exercise any of

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our rights in the future so the the conversation should go into a direction where we normalize

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privacy and enable it for everyone because that's that's a train we clearly missed when we started

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building out the internet infrastructure that that we have today but i also am very optimistic

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about this because in recent years we have seen developments that were not you know that were

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unthinkable a couple years ago with end-to-end encryption and Nostar as decentralized social

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media for example bitcoin obviously has unstoppable money that cannot take it away from you and e-cash

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is also part of that because it allows you to build systems custodial systems that are private

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respect your privacy as an individual and also cannot be censored arbitrarily and we can get

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into that later when we describe a little bit more about the privacy features of e-cash how that also

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gives you these unexpected features for example such as censorship resistance and perhaps that's

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actually a perfect segue into that to talk a little bit about because you use the term like

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near perfect privacy for e-cash can you explain kind of what what that means in the context of

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e-cash you know the idea of near near perfect yes we can do that so maybe it's useful to first think

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about how an ordinary custodial system works today and what what we can call what the systems are

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that we can call custodial systems so when i say custodial systems i usually mean a little bit more

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than the usual bitcoiner because custodial systems are much more widespread than you would think

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so this is not only wallet of satoshi for example which is the biggest custodial lightning wallet

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that i like to use as an example and but it extends to things like your kraken account is a

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custodial account obviously your bank account is a custodial account but it also goes into

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weirder directions for example you could say that your netflix subscription is also a custodial

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relationship because you pay upfront and then you expect the service in return stretched over a

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window of 30 days for example so if you really want to go into a nuance you can see a custodial

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systems almost everywhere and so the way these systems are all built and this is not because

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these are evil people because but this is how you can build these systems is using user tables

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databases of transactions so essentially a wallet of satoshi server knows that user a walker has

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an account and there are 120 satoshis in his account and she received them in the last three

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payments from this user from this user and that user so there is a perfect log of all the transactions

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for every user in every custodial system and that is because that's just how they work so this is

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not to track you this is just to make sure that you can do accounting correctly so any of the

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systems that i that i mentioned work like that now e-cache is basically an inverted version of that

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with e-cache the server that is the custodian so now let's imagine wallet of satoshi was a cashew

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mint so in that case they would not hold a database of users and how much they have and so on

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but instead they would give out digital bearer tokens e-cache tokens to every user and the

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balance of every user would be determined by how much e-cache they have on their phone so there is

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no database in which it says walker has 120 000 satoshis but your balance as the user as a user

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is determined by how much e-cache you have stored in your phone for example so the the server doesn't

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have a concept of an individual user the server also doesn't know how much each individual user

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transacts and with whom they transact the only thing now when you want to send me let's say 500

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satoshis from your from a cashew wallet and in that case what the satoshi would be a cashew wallet

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then what you would do is you take some piece of their digital data and you send it to me over any

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kind of communication medium it could be a telegram message or a QR code or something and I would take

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this data and store it on my phone again and so that's how the balance would basically switch

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owners from one person to another and the server in the meantime only makes sure that this cannot

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be double spent but doesn't know which user interacted with which user and that's what gives

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e-cache this quote unquote near perfect privacy and I say near perfect privacy because I like to

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be pedantic on this there is no perfect privacy in the universe I guess this can almost be stated

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as a mathematical fact but it's also important to to mention the the conditions in which the privacy

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could be decremented also in an e-cache system one thing to be aware of is that every time you

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talk to a mint there is an IP address for example associated with your request so even if the mint

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doesn't know who which user which user you are there is a chance for the mint to figure out which

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IP address does which request with the server and therefore they could deduce some kind of properties

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of your wallet with that however you can also fix that you can use things like Tor there are also

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methods to do the communication to the mint via a network like Nostar where you don't see the IP

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addresses of the user so there are ways to also mitigate this risk a bit more but it's still something

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that is that everyone should be should be cognizant about I think that that's a good way of explaining

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because like you can almost think of privacy like sovereignty where you know there is no

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perfect sovereignty right and there's no truly perfect privacy you're kind of a curve asymptotically

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approaching that line you can get closer and closer and closer to it but you're never going to be

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you know totally at one you're always going to be at you know 0.999 whatever repeating you can never

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quite get exactly there but you can do a lot of things to get yourself as close to there as possible

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much like Bitcoin will never exactly hit 21 million it'll hit like just below there right

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so it's it's about giving yourself the tools to be able to at least move along that curve to get a

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little bit closer to get near perfect but I think that that isn't important the the pedantic description

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is is is good there because it you know we want to be honest about this like there are always going

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to be trade-offs right if you're trying to increase your own personal sovereignty and value open source

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00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:48,240
technology then head to bitbox.swiss slash walker and use the promo code walker for five percent off

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the bitcoin only bitbox o2 hardware wallet it's easy as hell to use whether you're new to bitcoin

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00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:01,840
or a seasoned psychopath it's bitcoin only and again it's fully open source you can head to

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00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:07,600
their github and check for yourself there is no need to trust me when you go to bitbox.swiss

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slash walker and use the promo code walker not only do you get five percent off but you also

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help support another fucking bitcoin podcast this one so thank you and I think one of those

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trade-offs that you might see people I'm sure maybe you've gotten some pushback about this too is

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eCash is a it is a custodial solution itself right whether that be a

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Fetiment and maybe we can a little bit later go into kind of the distinction between cashu versus

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Fetiment like one being a more community-based N number of mint mint operators versus you know the one but it is a

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number to spend as you don't gotta impossible impchemilar's and also has a situation to be a system as well

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know these tables, all of these, they're not trying to track you, but they need to have

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that information as a way of doing business versus eCash, where basically you don't need

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to know anything about it.

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Like I just downloaded the the enut swallow it today, and confused yourself and the actual

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developer of it on Twitter in a classic blunder on my part.

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But I loved going in there and seeing that there's no data collected.

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There is there is nothing that needs to be collected there.

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But can we talk a little bit specifically about the fact that the eCash tokens are actually

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locally being stored on your device?

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They're not somewhere else.

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There's not somebody that can rug you from like what's on your phone, but a mint itself

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can be rugged to a certain extent.

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Can you talk about that kind of because I think that's where people get a little bit

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confused.

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Yes.

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So let's make that very, very clear from the beginning.

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The eCash solutions that we're building on Bitcoin today are custodial.

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So no one should be confused about that.

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And if you're not interested in custodial solutions, you should definitely stay away

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from these technologies because it is something where you give up your Bitcoin to the custody

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of a service provider.

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And that service provider then promises you a certain service.

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And that in that case, it would be honoring your redemption when you want to get your

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Bitcoin back, for example.

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So just that upfront, and I understand that many people are not interested in custodial

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solutions and that is totally fine.

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Bitcoin gives us finally the option to not care about custodial solutions.

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Bitcoin is the only option that basically allows us to do that.

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And when you think of the fiat system, however, there is essentially no other way to be non-custodial

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than to have the cash on the your mattress.

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There is no non-custodial digital way to transact with fiat.

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Now why am I saying this is I'm a, let's say, incremental improver.

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I think it is worth improving systems that we already use, even if they are not perfect.

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And you could also argue that Bitcoin itself is not perfect.

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For example, it doesn't scale to 8 billion people without any significant changes that

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we would have to make.

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And also custodial systems are not perfect.

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Indeed, they're pretty bad in terms of your privacy.

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And also they have the custodial risk that you can be rocked at any moment.

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And eCash does not improve on that.

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So eCash does not improve the rugged ability of a custodian.

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So the custodian, let's say the operator of Wallet of Satoshi, and I'm not implying that

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they would ever do that.

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I also like Wallet of Satoshi a lot, but it's just an example that many people know.

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The operator of Wallet of Satoshi could close down shop at any moment, or could be forced

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to close down shop.

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And all the Bitcoin that is on their note would be unavailable to their users.

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So and eCash solutions do not improve on this problem.

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So what eCash does improve is to take custodial systems that already exist and add the almost

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perfect privacy on top of that.

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So in that sense, it is an incremental improvement of something that already exists.

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And I think that's worth pursuing, especially if you look at the real world activity of

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Bitcoiners, especially in the small transaction size realm where we are talking about Zaps

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and Tips and small payments online.

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Most people use Lightning for that, and most people actually use custodial Lightning for

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that and not their own note.

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So of course, we have to educate everyone to be non-custodial as much as they can, but

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we won't reach any point in a reasonable short future where we will be able to transact

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with 200 Satoshis in a non-custodial way with Bitcoin.

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And it's not even truly the case with Lightning.

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Some Lightning pros out there will know that for a transaction size below the dust limit,

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for example, not even a Lightning payment is truly enforceable until it's actually finished.

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So we have this problem, and this is a real problem.

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Now with E-Cash, as I said, you can improve custodial systems, and maybe it would make

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sense to again go one step back and think, like, talk about this distinction between

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custodial Bitcoin but non-custodial E-Cash and how that comes together and the way that

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we, it comes together in the way that we built your systems today.

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So a cash-serve server, which could be run by anyone, so you can imagine this is maybe

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a company that runs a wallet, or this could also be an online shop where you can charge

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a balance or something like that.

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That company or a service provider takes your Bitcoin and gives you E-Cash in return.

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And as I said before, E-Cash is a bearer instrument token, so it is a token that the Mint generates

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for you, and that is worth, let's say, 200 Satoshis.

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So you gave the Mint 200 Satoshis on the Lightning network, and what you get back is a piece

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of digital data that is worth 200 Satoshis.

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And that's a bearer token, and that is, you know, when you remember my very first example

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in this recording today, I mentioned this contract that the Mint blindsides.

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This contract is E-Cash, so in digital form this is a piece of E-Cash.

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Now it gives you back this E-Cash, and then you store it on your device, and then, and

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I mean that literally, it is stored on the drive of your device and has no trace on the

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server because the server doesn't actually know what it's looked like because it closed

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its eyes that did this blindsigning that I explained before.

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So you have E-Cash in your wallet, and there is Bitcoin on the server's wallet.

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So the Bitcoin is custodial, but the E-Cash itself cannot be taken away from you because

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no one knows, has ever seen the E-Cash except you.

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And that's the nice thing about E-Cash in general because now, if the server would like

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to send, for example, you walker because you did so many bad jokes on Nostra, and you should

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be punished for that, for example, then the server in a classical sense could say, I don't

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like walker, I'm going to turn off his money, and your account would be frozen.

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But with E-Cash you cannot do that because first of all, the user, the server doesn't

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know about you, there is no account or anything, you just hold E-Cash, and the server cannot

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take away your E-Cash because it doesn't know what it looks like, it has never seen it before,

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it cannot even sensor your E-Cash.

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So there is only one thing that the mint operator can do, is either rack everyone, so take the

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Bitcoin and run, and then the server is basically down, and this is the same risk that, for example,

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I explained, like what if Satoshi could close down and it's over, or no one, so or rack

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no one, there is no way to specifically sensor one specific user that I don't like, and that's

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the beauty of E-Cash, and something also I think is a bit unintuitive because as Bitcoiners

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we always know censorship resistance, and we equate it with custody basically, or having,

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you know, being sovereign, and that is very strongly coupled in the case of Bitcoin, but

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what E-Cash taught me is also in a custodial system, like with E-Cash, you can still be

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censorship resistant, and that's maybe surprising for some because usually you wouldn't expect

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that something where you have to trust the custodian is not able to sensor any specific

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user, and that is the case with E-Cash.

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I think that's a really, you're right, it's a bit counterintuitive, but it's an important

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point, you know, yes, it's either rug all or rug none, it's like there is greater privacy

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and greater censorship resistance when there's strength in numbers, it's like the zebra,

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you know, the zebra by itself sticks out, right, but a zebra in a herd is just a bunch

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of stripes, you can't tell who is what, they're all the same, right, and so you can't single

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out a particular zebra, you need to decimate the entire herd, right, but in with E-Cash

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there is still the rugability at the server side from the mint operator to take all of

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that Bitcoin, in which case then that's not going to be a trusted mint operator anymore,

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nobody's going to use, if you know, if you rug everybody, nobody's going to use anything

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you create in the future, and you can't just rug one person, you can't single out walker

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for his terrible jokes and say, I'm taking just that guy's Bitcoin, so I think that

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that's a really important distinction there, and one that is easily lost because we tend

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to, as you said, we tend to think, okay, you're either, you know, totally unruggable, or you

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are rug-able, but in this case, yeah, you're rug-able, but only if every other person is

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also rugged, so it doesn't remove that risk, it just removes your ability to be individually

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censored because you are, have that near perfect privacy, and you can't be distinguished from

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that other herd of Bitcoin-zapping zebras, which is kind of a nice visual that maybe

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I'll have to have AI generate.

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So actually, and this is a good segue into a question that was posted on Noster that

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somebody wanted me to ask you, is eCash cryptographically verifiable in an offline state?

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So it's being, you know, is the, like, can you verify, yes, this is in fact a, you know,

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my eCash token, it is here, it is related to this mint, even if you are offline and

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don't have connection to the mint at that time.

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Okay, so we're starting to get into the interesting bits of the crazy things that you can do with

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eCash because right now we've spent quite some time in explaining how the custodial

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risk situation is and the privacy, but eCash offers also some cryptographic magic that

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you can use to build really cool systems.

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So to answer the question, eCash tokens themselves, they have a signature of the mint.

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So as I explained in the very beginning, there is a contract that you have written, the mint

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has never seen, and there is a signature of the mint on that contract.

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So anyone can verify that signature, that means that if I show you, you're offline

401
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,920
and if I show you a piece of eCash token, you can, because you have remembered the public

402
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,600
key of the mint before, you can verify the signature and say, yes, this was actually

403
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,200
signed by the mint.

404
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:43,520
However, so we haven't talked about this, but maybe it would make sense to do it right

405
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:44,520
now.

406
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:49,480
What an ordinary eCash transaction usually looks like.

407
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:54,200
So imagine I have some eCash in my wallet, it's stored in my wallet and Walker, I want

408
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,560
to send you 200 Satoshis.

409
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:03,240
Now as I explained before, maybe the smart attentive listener already noticed that I

410
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:10,520
was sending you a bear token via QR code, for example, what basically hinders me from

411
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,920
double spending the same token to another user.

412
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,680
Let's say you want to sell me an apple, I give you the token and while you're giving

413
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:22,800
me the apple, I buy a banana with the same token and now I have a banana and an apple,

414
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:27,560
but I paid both of them with the same piece of money and that would be obviously bad.

415
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:33,280
So for a normal eCash transaction to finish, we still have to make one more step, which

416
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,320
is I take the token and I send it to you.

417
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:41,160
And now before you give me the apple, you take the token and you send it back to the

418
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:47,280
mint and say to the mint, hey mint, here's 200 Satoshi token that you have never seen,

419
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,560
but please give me another one in return and burn this one.

420
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,120
So the mint basically upon receiving, you will send it to the mint and receive a new

421
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,120
token immediately.

422
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:01,480
And with that, I'm not able to spend the same token that I gave you to another person.

423
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,640
So that's how the mint makes sure that eCash cannot be double spent.

424
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,280
So that is cool.

425
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,160
That is usually how every normal eCash transaction would work.

426
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,320
But now what happens if you're offline?

427
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:20,080
I say you now as a receiver, you're offline and you cannot talk to the mint immediately.

428
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:26,880
So one thing that I could do is I could give you eCash with a signature and send it to

429
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:27,880
you.

430
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,920
And while you're offline, you will, you're able to verify the signature of the mint and

431
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,480
at least know that this is a valid token.

432
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,200
It was validly signed by the mint.

433
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,760
So this token was created at some point.

434
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:44,560
However, the transaction is still not complete because you don't know whether I've spent

435
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:51,520
this token, even though you verified the signature, whether I spent this token to anyone else.

436
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,400
And so how could you fix that?

437
00:42:53,400 --> 00:43:00,640
And to enable truly offline payments where the receiver can remain fully offline, but

438
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:06,280
the payment cannot be double spent, you have to do some a few tricks before.

439
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,160
And the trick we use here is called Pay2Pupkey.

440
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,480
And Pay2Pupkey is a transaction type that we also know from Bitcoin.

441
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:19,040
And essentially what Pay2Pupkey means is that you as a receiver, now you would give me your

442
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:24,440
public key and it's usually in Bitcoin is in form of a Bitcoin address.

443
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:30,400
A Bitcoin address is a public key, so to speak, in most basic case.

444
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:36,040
And now what I can do is I can spend Bitcoin to a public key.

445
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:41,720
And that means in the blockchain there will be an entry that says from Kali to Walker's

446
00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:44,720
public key sent to Anasatoshis.

447
00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:50,920
And now the transaction, now for you in order to be able to spend this Bitcoin again, you

448
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,600
would have to make a signature that proves that you have the private key to the public

449
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,240
key that you have given me before.

450
00:43:57,240 --> 00:43:59,720
So that's how it works in Bitcoin.

451
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:04,120
You give me your public key and I send money to your public key and you can only spend

452
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:09,160
it once you give a signature from your public key that only you can do.

453
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,960
That's how we secure most normal Bitcoin transactions.

454
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:18,440
So with eCash we can do something quite similar to that and it was indeed also inspired by

455
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,720
basically how Bitcoin works.

456
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:27,040
And what we do essentially is the same situation as before, you are offline and I am online

457
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,000
and I want to pay you.

458
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:35,520
Let's say you have a little small like a pharmacy shop and you want to sell apples

459
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,400
but your internet connection is bad.

460
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:43,600
You can still receive eCash that cannot be double spent by giving me your public key

461
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,920
in form of a QR code for example.

462
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:51,160
And what I can do now with the eCash on my phone for example, I can send it once to the

463
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,640
Mint and redeem it for new eCash but this new eCash is a little bit more special.

464
00:44:55,640 --> 00:45:01,320
This new eCash that I redeem for my own eCash is now locked to a public key similar like

465
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,920
a Bitcoin transaction is locked to a public key.

466
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:08,960
So I just communicate with the Mint once and redeem like send the Mint 200 Satoshis

467
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:15,320
from my phone and I received 200 Satoshis again from the Mint but this time I cannot

468
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:20,320
spend these 200 Satoshis anymore only you can spend these 200 Satoshis because it's

469
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,480
locked to your public key.

470
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:27,680
And that means now while you can be offline I can send you this eCash token and you can

471
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:32,880
just look at it, essentially just look at it, verify the signature of the Mint and say

472
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:37,840
okay this is okay and then verify that it was indeed locked to your public key and say

473
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,920
this is okay and then the transaction is complete and this is quite magical because this token

474
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:48,800
now once you have seen it only you just have to perceive the token once you can be sure

475
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,680
that it cannot be double spent by anyone else and the transaction is complete.

476
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:56,440
So this is cool because you don't have internet, there is a final transaction, we just did

477
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:02,640
a half offline transaction and that's very cool but this idea you can just go crazy with

478
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,000
this idea and this is what we're doing obviously.

479
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:11,440
For example what you can do with this is also ultra fast payments and like I need to say

480
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:19,520
ultra ultra or some even more extreme form of that word because I think this is the most

481
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:26,000
the fastest possible payment that I can think of is now imagine you're an offline service

482
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:31,360
provider sorry you're not offline you're a service provider and you want to sell me

483
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:38,880
individual video frames of a YouTube video right so you want to get paid 25 times a second

484
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,200
let's say you want that.

485
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:48,000
Now what I could do as a user of your service I could take eCache and pre-lock all of the

486
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:54,800
eCache to your public key and keep it on my drive and then send for each frame that I

487
00:46:54,800 --> 00:47:00,240
request from you I can send you eCache during a direct channel between us and you can just

488
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:03,760
look at the eCache you don't even have to do a round trip with the Mint which would take

489
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:09,760
some time you can literally just look at it and store it in your database and the transaction

490
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:16,080
is complete and with that I can send thousands of payments to you that all will succeed with

491
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:22,320
100% certainty and that all will take maybe I don't know 15 milliseconds or depending

492
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:27,760
on the internet connection between us to to reach you and so this is something that we're

493
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:34,080
exploring and with this payment types you can probably scale this to the thousands of

494
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:40,320
payments per second type of situations for extreme streaming kind of situations where

495
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:46,400
you want to do value for value on a I don't know second or millisecond basis or couple

496
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,160
hundred millisecond basis and so on.

497
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:56,240
That is a pretty wild concept to think about and and the your explanation of the kind of

498
00:47:56,240 --> 00:48:01,520
offline very verifiability makes a lot more sense to me now because that's something I

499
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,120
was kind of wondering about as well I was glad to see this question get asked it means I'm

500
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:12,160
I'm not alone in my curiosity there so that's basically for to just very simply recap

501
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:18,080
if you have these eCache tokens and you want to send it to me and I'm offline

502
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:24,000
as long as you know one person you have a connection to the Mint you can lock them

503
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:29,200
to my public key and then when you receive those back I cannot go and send those to

504
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:36,800
you know to Pablo or to to Will there or excuse me you cannot they're just locked to Walker

505
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:44,240
that is now Walker's eCache and when I come back online reconnect with the Mint I will then have

506
00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:51,440
those eCache bearer tokens in my own custody correct exactly that's exactly how it works yeah

507
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:58,480
that's really I mean really cool and the the ability for so this is when you talk about

508
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:04,400
micro payments kind of at scale and at ultra ultra ultra speed we're talking actually faster than

509
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:11,520
lightning has the capability of communicating to right it's actually like on another level

510
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:16,640
from lightning or do you put it at comparable to lightning oh yeah it's it's strictly faster than

511
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:22,240
lightning so lightning is already pretty fast if it works well right you can get a lightning

512
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:30,880
payment in under a second but I'm talking below a few dozen milliseconds here so a lightning payment

513
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:37,760
can also be very fast in special cases for example when you have a direct channel and you don't do

514
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:44,320
any lightning routing you can also get to very impressive speeds with lightning but most payments

515
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:48,720
won't be over a direct channel for some high-speed applications that might actually be useful to

516
00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:54,720
set up a certain situation where you have a direct connection between two participants of a transaction

517
00:49:54,720 --> 00:50:00,560
but in the normal case this won't be the case this won't be so you would usually do a couple of

518
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:05,040
hops until you reach the destination and then information again needs to travel backwards

519
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:12,080
for the transaction to be complete here in this case I can I could send it to you via a laser

520
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:16,480
signal and then we could do a transaction with the speed of light basically as long as you can

521
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:21,840
read the data then verify the signature and store it in your database and that's all you need to do

522
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:28,480
and I mean in for fast modern computers these operations don't take more than one millisecond

523
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:34,160
together so most of the time is spent on the way to you through the internet but with a

524
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:39,440
technique like with something like a QR code scanner for example then that's pretty much instant yes

525
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:48,480
that is really quite cool to think about that you know lightning already being insanely lightning

526
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:55,920
fast but to take that to another level where you are you're talking about really as near real time

527
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:03,040
as you could just about possibly get with this while still also dealing with a bear instrument

528
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:09,840
which is pretty powerful and I think that that's maybe one thing at least for me and I think for

529
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:14,720
some others probably when first hearing about e-cache is something that maybe trips people up a

530
00:51:14,720 --> 00:51:20,160
little bit because they hear about e-cache and these e-cache tokens and perhaps it's because of

531
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:26,000
all of the crypto world jargon that's thrown around about tokens and everything else people get a

532
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:32,560
little bit confused and think well hold on am I not dealing with bitcoin here and I think what

533
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,920
you've kind of explained in these couple of these previous notes that you've made is that

534
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:42,000
the the bitcoin these are represent or these are bear assets that allow you to redeem bitcoin

535
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:48,800
from the server the server the mint operator mint issuer has the bitcoin these are bear tokens in

536
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:54,480
your custody that allow you give you the claim basically to say I want this bitcoin right now

537
00:51:54,480 --> 00:52:01,200
I want the you know 69 420 satoshis however many it is but I have the digital bear instrument that

538
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:06,320
allows me to do that and something you touched on earlier is something I've actually been been

539
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:13,440
thinking about a lot recently which is in the fiat world the only way to custody to actually have

540
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:20,480
self custody of your of your fiat tokens your dollars in my case is to have them in cash you

541
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:27,120
know literally physical cash that is the only way there is no way to have custody actual self custody

542
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:34,960
of digital fiat instruments it's it's impossible it's only I mean even if I mean in the case of a

543
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:40,960
cbdc you would still you certainly don't have custody then if it's on your your fed federal reserve

544
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:48,160
wallet they can rug individual users with startling precision and accuracy it is you know and if

545
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:53,920
you're using a bank we all know the money in your bank is not really yours they're they're holding a

546
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:58,960
an io for you but that can also be taken from you you know so I think that that's a really

547
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:04,480
important thing that is often lost yeah cash is cash is wonderful I found myself starting to use

548
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:10,240
physical cash more the deeper I started going down the bitcoin rabbit hole because I was like well

549
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:15,520
man you know cash is actually pretty wonderful I can just hand this to somebody and it's theirs

550
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:20,960
and nobody else needs to be watching this transaction that's a beautiful thing e-cash is

551
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:27,920
now giving you the ability to have that digital cash like bearer transaction with the same amount of

552
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:33,360
privacy you know because cash okay you and I give each other a you know I give you a ten dollar bill

553
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:37,680
somebody could still be watching and sees that I handed you a ten dollar bill sure it's not perfect

554
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:43,520
privacy there either but it's near perfect especially compared to using a debit card using a credit

555
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:51,920
card using whatever else so that's a pretty pretty incredible thing I think maybe I'd like to talk a

556
00:53:51,920 --> 00:54:01,040
little bit about the overlap between e-cash and noster and how you've uh no it was you that created

557
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:09,440
n pub.cash right uh no that is also not you man I am I just assume anything to do with with nuts

558
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:17,440
and uh is just related to you so this is again no I need to make some apologies I work a lot on

559
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:25,440
cashew and I started it and but most of the work that people see today especially the visual stuff

560
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:30,560
in apps and all the beautiful things that people have been building is from the community so there

561
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:37,680
many different developers who are building on their own project on the cashew protocol and

562
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:44,800
and I can recommend for example the enauts a enauts.cash wallet or for android users also the

563
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:52,080
minibits.cash wallet these are two very excellent phone wallets that you can try today to play around

564
00:54:52,080 --> 00:55:00,160
with charming e-cash and cashew and n-pop.cash was made by another hacker not me and that is a

565
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:06,320
website that allows you to receive e-cash tokens using an ossa public key and should we talk about

566
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:12,400
what we do on nosa with e-cash? I would love to yeah and and I'd like to apologize also to the

567
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:16,480
to the developers out there I'll make sure to get the uh I'll link all of this in the show notes

568
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:23,120
so I can give proper attribution but for anyone listening I apologize. No worries I'm pretty

569
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:31,760
sure they will forgive you so um uh nosa yeah so uh as I said before for e-cash to be transmitted

570
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:38,800
from one person to a person you need some sort of a communication channel and um the easiest way

571
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:45,680
of doing it today and you know remember an e-cash token is a bare instrument and what it actually

572
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:51,760
looks like for a user is it looks like a random piece of string it's a piece of data like a

573
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:58,160
scrambled random piece of string that always starts with cashew and you can copy this piece of string

574
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:03,520
and you can put it into an email and send it to your grandma for example and your grandma will see

575
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:09,920
this piece of uh data in the email and then just take it and put it in her e-cash wallet so that's

576
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:16,800
how the transaction could work um you can also do it with uh QR codes or whatever you want basically

577
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:22,320
to send around data between phone and phone and user and user and so on so now obviously uh as

578
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:30,400
bitcoiners we're very focused on on noster as a social network that uh that an unruggable social

579
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:37,760
network that cannot be turned off and so on noster uh and it turned out pretty quickly when we started

580
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:43,840
working on cashew which was coincidentally very close to uh when noster got uh was picking up

581
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:50,800
um we noticed very early that noster is an ideal place to send around e-cash uh from and to users

582
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:57,280
um because it has several very nice uh features that we can make use of in cashew so um first of

583
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:02,800
all in noster everyone has an identity uh you have an n-pop everyone knows that that's you it's

584
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:09,120
not just an impersonator i can look up your follower account and see this is indeed you and it's

585
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:15,920
legit and so on so there's kind of a identity and a web of trust already just by being a social

586
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:21,440
network with people interacting with each other and that is already a huge huge thing i think

587
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:27,680
it's still undervalued this property of noster and uh i have to remind you like the the last successful

588
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:32,800
attempt at doing something like that was pgp and it's very very old like you would have key servers

589
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:38,720
and people would have to attest that they know you and so on like was very uh very chaotic and not

590
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:44,240
really useful at least from from point of view of today and with noster you just get that for free

591
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:48,480
by just following someone shitposting with them interacting and then you get some credibility

592
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:53,680
that this is indeed the person and so we have that and at the same time we also have a network to

593
00:57:53,680 --> 00:58:00,720
send around uh notes and other things transmitted over relays right so um while most users know

594
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:08,240
noster from uh this it's social media application site uh many app developers also really love

595
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:14,240
noster because they can use these identities uh on a network that also provides you the rails to

596
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:22,240
send the data to these identities and in the case for a cashew what we do is essentially um i think

597
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:28,400
all cashew wallets today have some sort of a noser capability and what you can do in them is

598
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:33,840
you just when you have your wallet open which says a thousand set horses in your ballots for example

599
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:38,080
you can click on a on a contacts tab and then you will see all your friends that you follow a

600
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:42,720
noster and with a click of a button you can just send money to them even if they don't have a cashew

601
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:47,920
wallet you can just take a piece of e-cash from your wallet and send it over an encrypted direct

602
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:53,360
message to them so what they will see if they don't have a cash wallet they will just see

603
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:59,200
a random string appear and if they have a noster client that shows them the e-cash in a nicely

604
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:06,320
visual rendered form like an amatrist and and snored and i think i believe it's coming to primal and

605
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:12,960
it's already also in uh nostrital i think so then it will show up as a nicely rendered e-cash

606
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:19,200
token uh payment made to you so you will see that kali just sent you a dm and in that dm there was

607
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:25,040
some money for you and if you have a not if you have a cashew wallet that supports receiving

608
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:30,320
a noster it might even see that automatically and immediately you will see it in your wallet

609
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:37,120
balance just go up so i can pay you directly using a noster relay between us basically and only you

610
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:44,160
can read the message because it's a direct message that is encrypted so this is what we have been

611
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:50,080
focusing on so far and this is what the apps have built and now in the last couple of days we have

612
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:55,520
uh you know uh more fascinating and interesting stuff coming up so one thing that you mentioned

613
00:59:55,520 --> 01:00:03,360
already is npop.cash and this is a this is a service that basically gives every noster user

614
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:10,560
a lightning address whether they know it or not so uh with npop.cash you can basically it generates

615
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:16,320
an infinite amount of the different uh lightning addresses so you can think uh your npop so it

616
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:23,440
might be the scrambled number your npop at npop.cash is a lightning address that works and if anyone

617
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:29,520
sends bitcoin to that lightning address uh the the lightning payment to that address will be converted

618
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:35,760
into e-cash nuts and they will be stored or waiting for you to pick up on noster but they will be

619
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:42,000
stored until you come back online and then you can go to npop.cash log in with your uh noster

620
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:48,080
uh signing extension so there are no user signups or accounts or any shenanigans like that uh you

621
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:53,360
just sign up with your signing extension and then you see the e-cash waiting there for you that was

622
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:57,520
generated while you were offline with a click of a button you can either pay directly to your

623
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:04,480
lightning wallet or you can redeem the e-cash directly on a different cashier wallet so this

624
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:11,520
is one project i'm very excited about because we're building it in a general way so that it can be

625
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:18,080
used also by other cashier wallets as a backend for lightning addresses so instead of every cashier

626
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:24,640
wallet having to implement some way to do lightning addresses for them we imagine that npop.cash

627
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:32,160
will will have a nice api that can be used by anyone also be run by anyone themselves so it

628
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:37,760
doesn't have to be on on that domain and you can get a lightning address support for every

629
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:44,320
e-cash wallet basically that way that is it's really cool and i just uh yesterday or the day

630
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:49,520
before i started playing around with with npop.cash and for anyone listening you can just go to

631
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:55,920
npop.cash on your browser and you can try this out you can claim a username uh for a few sats or

632
01:01:55,920 --> 01:02:03,280
you can just use your as uh as callie said your existing npop and then it'll just be at npop.cash

633
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:09,280
it's really easy to use and i just you know signed in it was using albie so just you know

634
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:15,200
use that browser extension to securely sign and then i'm good to go it was super easy um

635
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:20,400
i'm curious because there's a little bit of a difference between that and enuts now enuts when

636
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:26,080
i was setting that up which is now live on the on the app store i think the play store too i'm

637
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:30,560
not sure but i know the app store for sure uh because i've just downloaded today you can search

638
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:36,400
enuts uh on there i did not have to do any sort of did not have to sign it with my private key

639
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:41,520
i just had to put in my public key and then it said that it was deriving a special private key

640
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:47,840
for me based on that public key so there was no no need to do any sort of secure sign in there

641
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:53,360
no data collected of course can you explain the difference there so that's not uh is that basically

642
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:59,280
specific to the enuts wallet then on my device it's deriving a new private key for me based on my

643
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:06,000
public key because i populated my whole address book i sent i sent 69 uh sats to you in the form of

644
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:12,560
uh some some e-cash uh because it was super easy i just searched for calle boom all my

645
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:17,520
nos to contacts are imported i sent it done but can you explain the difference there between

646
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:23,360
uh kind of n pub dot cash versus enuts and maybe if there's uh you mentioned opening up an api for

647
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:28,080
n pub dot cash that obviously gives a lot more interoperability uh benefits but are there some

648
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:34,240
other benefits to the deriving a new private key from the public key like enuts does uh so this is

649
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:40,080
something that the developers of both enuts and minibits are currently exploring is what are the

650
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:47,120
ux implications for both of these methods because um so um it would be best if the developers themselves

651
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:52,880
would comment on this but uh from what i have witnessed there there was in the beginning

652
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:59,920
uh also a concern about privacy and data safety to ask users to enter their uh

653
01:03:59,920 --> 01:04:05,440
insects or their nos to private keys into yet another application um that means that if you

654
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:10,080
don't want to do that that means that the app that you're using cannot read your direct messages

655
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:17,280
so what i just explained with someone sending you uh e-cash to your uh nos to account uh the wallet

656
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:24,720
wouldn't be able to see that in order to circumvent that both applications minibits and enuts do it

657
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:30,960
slightly differently but essentially they derive you a new set of keys so it's a new private key

658
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:36,400
that is only associated with that wallet and all the direct messages to that private key and public

659
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:42,160
key pair that are going there will end up in your inbox that the wallet can then pick up so it adds

660
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:49,440
uh definitely some privacy not everyone uh on the on the nos the network can see who paid whom

661
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:56,720
because on nos to you can see all the activity uh metadata and so um it definitely improves the

662
01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:02,080
privacy however it also causes some uh a little bit of confusion for the user itself because the

663
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:08,560
user now needs to know uh okay i have my social key now i have my wallet key and then there is

664
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:15,520
another key and so this has to be communicated either very mindfully to the user or some other

665
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:22,320
technique should be considered i guess so they might want to consider also entering your

666
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:28,880
insect eventually i don't know or using something like an insect bunker what publu is working on so

667
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:36,480
have a remote signing uh software running somewhere else that can sign without you having to enter your

668
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:45,600
your um private keys into the wallet itself but at the end of today both work with nos their

669
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:55,600
identity so as well as npub.cache or inots and mini bits and the idea is mostly the same i want to

670
01:05:55,600 --> 01:06:04,240
be able to know your npub or a npub that reaches you and i'm just throwing e-cache to that npub

671
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:09,680
and whoever has the private keys for that npub can read the e-cache and then redeem the e-cache

672
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:15,040
okay okay so there like with anything there are some trade-offs the uh

673
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:21,440
version that enuts is using could be argued that perhaps it's a little bit more private

674
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:28,080
because it's not actually uh associating like it's creating a a new identity derived from your

675
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:34,800
existing uh social npub that you're using so it's you know it's again a question of optionality a

676
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:40,480
question of choice what does the user want to do if they want to use you know npub.cache great that

677
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:45,680
will be signed with their private key via a signing extension if they want to use enuts they just need

678
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:50,880
the public key and you'll get a new private key derived from that and some some trade-offs to both

679
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:55,920
but okay i appreciate that clarification because i was kind of uh wondering a little bit about that

680
01:06:55,920 --> 01:07:03,200
there um i'm curious can you talk a little bit about just uh where you know what are what else

681
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:09,040
are you excited about in terms of building on noster or the implementations that may be possible

682
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:14,640
that are that are now made possible on noster because of e-cache do you think this is you know

683
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:19,920
you mentioned that a lot of these noster clients are implementing uh implementing cashew already so

684
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:24,560
they'll be able to have that back in back end and interface with all of these other services that

685
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:29,920
are being built around e-cache but you know what else as you look toward the future uh what are you

686
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:34,880
kind of excited about there that you see wow this is something big with these two things together

687
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:42,080
noster and and e-cache we can now do things that we could have only you know hope for at an earlier

688
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:53,120
stage um so i think what what comes to my mind here is especially improving zaps on noster right

689
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:59,360
now we have uh everyone knows zaps and loves zaps and it's also one of the reasons that noster is so

690
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:06,400
extremely fun to use is that you can get lightning zaps a lightning tip a small very small lightning

691
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:12,160
payment to a post that you make and if it's a good post then you get even more and that that really

692
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:19,760
drives the social uh layer of noster and um that is great i think but one of the um one of the

693
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:26,560
downsides of this is first of all uh obviously it drives people to use custodial systems um we

694
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:32,000
have seen from statistics that i think around 90 percent of all the lightning addresses on

695
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:38,880
noster are custodial and i would argue using a charming e-cache custodian would be strictly

696
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:44,240
better for your privacy there so there is definitely something that we can improve in what we do today

697
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:50,960
just by using for example more using cashier wallets and building cashier wallets um but another thing

698
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:54,960
that i think we will be able to do very soon this is something that we're working on kind of right

699
01:08:54,960 --> 01:09:04,240
now is to also do zaps that are not lightning but zaps that are e-cache so we want to be able to uh

700
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:11,200
tip a post or a person very similarly in the ux like it is right now but the payment will not

701
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:17,600
be a lightning payment but it will be an e-cache payment and that e-cache token and it's perfect

702
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:24,240
again for noster because the token the data itself is the payment so you don't have to query a lightning

703
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:28,240
server and then the lightning server has to respond back to the noster network and give some sort of

704
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:33,680
a certificate and this is how zaps work today it's kind of a complicated thing but it it must be

705
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:40,240
it must be done like that um because the noster network itself doesn't have any way to verify

706
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:47,040
that the payment was made actually so the the lightning service provider that recedes the zaps

707
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:52,800
actually gives back a receipt for everyone to to see and then render that you know 200 satoshis

708
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:59,920
was was tipped to this post so we want to improve that with e-cache namely by combining all of the

709
01:09:59,920 --> 01:10:06,240
things that we have already talked about today so it will be possible to you know you will write a

710
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:13,760
post on noster and if i like this post in my noster client i'll just press a zap button and instead of

711
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:19,200
doing a lightning payment it will take some e-cache for my balance and just and lock it to your public

712
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:24,720
to your n-pub so we can lock the e-cache to your n-pub very the same thing as i explained before

713
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:31,120
with paid public key and we can also give this proof of the signature so that i can post this

714
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:36,560
and this e-cache token just check that it's a valid signature from the mint and they can just

715
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:42,640
look at the e-cache and see that the signature is indeed valid and they can also check that this

716
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:47,840
e-cache token was locked to the intended recipient so for example i'm zapping you

717
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:52,960
everyone can check this is actually your n-pub so they can see that there was indeed there must

718
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:59,360
have been a payment from one user to another user for this specific post and that's all you all you

719
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:05,520
need basically in order to be able to render the the zap counter in your noster client and everyone

720
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:11,680
will see that 200 satoshis have been zapped to that post and this is really cool because it opens up

721
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:17,600
many new possibilities of things that you can do for example the clients themselves could first of

722
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:23,280
all the noster clients themselves could first of all just decide that they will only render zaps

723
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:29,280
from e-cache mints that they know that they are legit so it's not they could decide that only a

724
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:34,880
set of mints will be rendered and the other ones are just random mints that they don't like or

725
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:40,800
don't know or don't trust so they wouldn't render them that's possible another thing that is also

726
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:48,560
possible is that you can even use this with different currencies so e-cache itself as i said is a

727
01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:54,880
separate technology from bitcoin but we are building it on bitcoin and for bitcoin but so i know that

728
01:11:54,880 --> 01:12:03,040
fiat jeff would like to separate noster more from bitcoin because there is this this need for more

729
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:09,120
users from a diverse group more diverse group than just bit corners i mean you could argue about that

730
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:15,040
whether that's a good idea or not but if you would want to do that you could even do i don't know fiat

731
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:20,960
zaps if you like or some other currency or just do zaps maybe that are not backed by anything it's

732
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:27,280
just a play money a zap money that was issued by the noster relay or something like that so it gives

733
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:34,480
you more flexibility for the payment actual payment currency that you want to support and it

734
01:12:34,480 --> 01:12:40,400
allows you to do crazy scripting on top of the e-cache so you could do i don't know a multi-sig

735
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:47,520
e-cache zap or do a e-cache zap with a timeout that you can redeem back if the user didn't redeem it

736
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:53,840
in a in let's say in a two week period and things like that so all of these things are are then

737
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:58,400
just possible with e-cache because you can because you can use all the different features of e-cache

738
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:04,720
and just use it on top of a social network that's that's really cool i mean do you think that we see

739
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:12,560
uh like individual noster clients just becoming uh mince themselves so they say look you can you know

740
01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:18,480
we'll we'll basically issue tokens uh as you know we'll be the we'll be the server here we're already

741
01:13:18,480 --> 01:13:23,040
providing you with the service like basically you see you start seeing more integration between

742
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:29,200
the the e-cache wallet and the noster client just kind of blending into one almost is that

743
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:34,560
something or do you think they'll stay more uh more separate and just kind of tie into each other as

744
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:42,160
we're sort of seeing now i think for now it will probably stay more separate because uh these are

745
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:50,160
two very different uh obligations or responsibilities running a mint and running or running a noster

746
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:57,120
relay or writing a client for noster however i can see how these things merge in the future

747
01:13:57,120 --> 01:14:02,960
because e-cache allows you to also monetize uh all sorts of things on your own like digital

748
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:09,120
monetization of your content or service on the internet so i myself i imagine e-cache means to

749
01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:15,600
not only be run for custody for for bitcoin wallets the way that we're using them today but they can

750
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:21,600
also be run uh in the back end of a digital service provider so i mentioned already the video

751
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:26,960
streaming service for example that might want to run mint just for the video streaming service so

752
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:33,120
and now we're not talking about an interoperable money like satoshis but we're talking about

753
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:40,240
access right to a service that is paid by satoshi so you can do these closed systems of e-cache

754
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:46,240
where you just want to provide your users perfect privacy and enjoy all the other cool things that

755
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:51,600
you can do with e-cache and there might be this video service but it could also be a noster relay

756
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:58,720
provider and i believe a noster relay provider could could try to fund its operations like that

757
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:05,040
very easily so you could offer you could just run an e-cache mint next to your noster relay

758
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:11,840
and users of the noster relay would have to top up a balance and you would maybe get like a certain

759
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:17,600
percentage of that as as some kind of a fee and the rest could be useful as apps for example so

760
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:24,800
i can imagine how services generally trying to monetize will use e-cache because it just

761
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:30,480
is way easier to integrate than a normal uh table-based custodial system where you need

762
01:15:30,480 --> 01:15:34,880
user data and so on and so forth with an e-cache mint you just run the mint it just checks for

763
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:40,480
double spending and that's it so it's much easier to implement in one side at the same time you also

764
01:15:40,480 --> 01:15:47,120
get like perfect privacy for your users which is a great thing to offer obviously okay okay well i'm

765
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:52,400
excited to see kind of how this continues to evolve because just you know playing around with it

766
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:59,680
already it's uh it's it's just fun and by the way uh how did you decide to just uh to call cashew

767
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:07,600
cashew and to call uh e-cache nuts and like was it just a fuck it let me let me name it this or

768
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:13,840
was there uh is there something like technical behind it that gave you the idea to call it that

769
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:20,000
well actually it's a good question so it's definitely a fuck it will go with this type

770
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:26,000
of situation definitely the energy is very you know joke heavy and we like to have fun i mean

771
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:32,080
we're spending most of our time working on this stuff so we we demand to have fun while doing so

772
01:16:32,080 --> 01:16:38,000
and this is our attempt by just making everything a bit more joyful by making jokes and our theme

773
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:45,040
is nut based because i think it started with the word cashew because you have cash in the word cashew

774
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:52,000
and i just love cashews this literally true i'm doing a little obseq fail here but i'll tell you

775
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:58,720
i eat my 200 grams of cashews every day because i just love them so much so maybe not every day

776
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:06,400
but i'm exaggerating here so i love nuts and well nuts are atomic there are small little pieces you

777
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:12,720
can send them around so it's nice to imagine and somehow this meme got much larger than than the

778
01:17:12,720 --> 01:17:18,880
project itself by now so everyone is just going with it and we'll we'll see how far we can drive

779
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:25,200
this nut i love it and i love cashews too for what it's worth they're they're a great nut okay

780
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:29,680
because i was always curious about that i was like is there something deeper but and i like that you

781
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:35,920
know the cash the cashew it's a great nut these nuts roll with it i like the idea you should have

782
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:42,720
fun when you're building building really badass open source tech i think that's a that's a good

783
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:50,640
goal to have there um another question for you because i think people there's obviously a lot

784
01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:56,320
of talk about fediment right now and a lot of talk about cashew these are two different protocols

785
01:17:57,120 --> 01:18:02,000
can you explain a little bit the difference between kind of the federated model of fediment

786
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:08,400
uh the uh non federated model of cashew and then where the crossover is because they're

787
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:14,800
both still dealing with e-cash but with kind of different purposes for their uh like what their end

788
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:24,240
use case is right yes exactly so um fediment is an amazing piece of uh engineering so it's a federated

789
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:31,920
e-cash system which means that now uh almost everything that i said applies uh to to fediment as

790
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:36,400
well so it's an e-cash system the charming e-cash system works very much the same with a bit of

791
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:41,600
different cryptography so it's not interoperable with with cashew in the sense that you cannot

792
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:46,960
take a cashew token and pay it in a fediment federation or vice versa but the underlying

793
01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:52,720
principles are very much the same so you pay your bitcoin to a service the service gives you some

794
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:58,080
e-cash and then you transact with the e-cash inside the system until uh you want to make a bitcoin

795
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:03,520
payment again so that's also how fediment works but the crucial difference between um cashew and

796
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:08,800
fediment is that you have a federated mint and that means that a single mint in in the case of

797
01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:16,720
fediment is not run by one party but by n parties so let's say you have a quorum you can also have

798
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:21,040
a quorum so you have a quorum of three out of five for example that will mean in the case of

799
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:26,080
fediment that there are five different servers and they all have to agree or at least three of

800
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:33,040
them have to agree in order to make one e-cash payment and that is great because first of all

801
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:40,320
it's a big engineering challenge to do that and they've successfully done so and secondly it improves

802
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:47,600
the rock risk for the entire mint substantially so that means obviously if you just trust one party

803
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:53,840
uh then you have to put all your trust in that party and in the case for fediment you have you

804
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:58,800
can spread your trust across multiple participants and they would then have to collude in order to

805
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:03,680
take everyone's bitcoin and runaway so that really improves the custodial risk of fediment

806
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:10,960
and i think that also fits a lot on their kind of mission uh that they are following and as far as

807
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:17,040
i understand fediment is all about community custody so they want to give people the ability

808
01:20:17,040 --> 01:20:23,360
to transact with bitcoin if they cannot run their own lightning node or if they cannot use

809
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:28,960
on-chain payments themselves because of fees and complexity and so on and so forth so in that case

810
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:36,160
fediment allows you to you know find a trusted group of people and then deposit your bitcoin

811
01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:42,800
there and use their e-cash service in return and and that's great for cashew cashew also allows you

812
01:20:42,800 --> 01:20:48,560
to build a similar system so you can imagine a wallet provider for example running a cashew mint

813
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:54,400
but it's always going to be at least for the time being it's going to be a single trusted party

814
01:20:54,400 --> 01:21:02,800
that that you give your bitcoin to and then you use their e-cash system now the the reason why

815
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:08,560
we don't consider a federated model right now though is that we really want to focus on the

816
01:21:08,560 --> 01:21:16,080
efficiency so the goal of cashew is to build a system that can cover a very wide range of

817
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:21,680
applications so we focus a lot on the protocol design and spelling it really out for other

818
01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:27,440
developers to implement and we want multiple implementations to be there for different use

819
01:21:27,440 --> 01:21:34,480
cases and when i say a wide range of applications i mean very small scale applications like a

820
01:21:34,480 --> 01:21:39,840
single website with a few hundred users that wants to run an e-cash mint for one specific purpose

821
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:48,000
for example or an e-cash mint maybe even running on a small integrated board of you know low value

822
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:52,960
hardware because you have a vending machine somewhere for example that wants to use e-cash

823
01:21:52,960 --> 01:22:00,080
so it should be applicable for these very small scale scenarios but at the same time we're working

824
01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:06,480
also on making this system scale to thousands and tens of thousands of concurrent users so

825
01:22:07,440 --> 01:22:13,040
we want to build cashew such that you can do tens of thousands of transactions per second

826
01:22:13,040 --> 01:22:18,160
which is the scale you need for very big applications if you can imagine i don't know maybe it's

827
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:25,040
going to be the bitcoin banks of the future maybe it's going to be the social media providers of

828
01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:30,720
the future that have some kind of an e-cash mint running and they need extreme levels of throughput

829
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:36,080
and this is something that you cannot really achieve if you have a federated consensus system

830
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:41,120
that also needs to where you have five servers to always keep up with everyone else and so that

831
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:48,080
just introduces delays and complexity but again Feddy Mint is amazing software i urge everyone to

832
01:22:48,080 --> 01:22:57,280
check it out and i think for cashew we will we will see wallet providers doing that but we will

833
01:22:57,280 --> 01:23:04,160
also see more exotic and diverse use cases of e-cash that i can probably not think of

834
01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:11,920
already now i appreciate the clarification so we you could essentially in a very simplified way

835
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:20,480
think of it as cashew single sig versus Feddy Mint multi-sig in terms just at a way of thinking

836
01:23:20,480 --> 01:23:28,720
about it you know you've got you know whatever x of n versus just one of one in terms of the the

837
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:34,880
model for the mint itself but the actual e-cash the issuing of the bearer tokens that is basically

838
01:23:34,880 --> 01:23:40,480
you know besides some cryptographic differences essentially the same concept there fair summary

839
01:23:40,480 --> 01:23:46,080
yes there's a good summary okay so i have a i want to be conscious of your time here and i have

840
01:23:47,280 --> 01:23:51,280
two other small things i want to get into well they're actually i lied they're they're not small

841
01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:57,120
but they're big questions but i'll go to the the first one that i think is perhaps more

842
01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:03,120
more generally interesting to people which is you know you talk about scaling you mentioned

843
01:24:03,120 --> 01:24:08,320
earlier and i think this is pretty well known is that bitcoin self-custody in its current state

844
01:24:08,320 --> 01:24:12,960
is not going to scale to eight billion people right this is has been known by people who are

845
01:24:12,960 --> 01:24:18,960
familiar with it for some time it appears that others folks perhaps on on twitter are just now

846
01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:27,760
figuring this out but i'm curious because when i the more i learn about e-cash the more i look at

847
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:36,960
it as a scaling solution a way to scale on top of bitcoin at another layer of bitcoin to utilize

848
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:41,680
bitcoin still has that base layer money still has that reserve that's being kept in the mint

849
01:24:42,240 --> 01:24:48,400
but give people a privacy preserving a better privacy near a perfect privacy way to interact

850
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:56,320
with bitcoin also very very quickly i view that as a way to scale bitcoin to many many more people

851
01:24:56,320 --> 01:25:02,240
but then there's the question of scaling bitcoin at the base layer and changes to be made so i'm

852
01:25:02,240 --> 01:25:07,920
just curious as somebody who has worked on bitcoin on lightning now on e-cash you have a really good

853
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:13,520
holistic perspective of this entire space starting from the base layer through the other layers

854
01:25:14,400 --> 01:25:19,120
how do you approach that problem just from like a logical perspective how do you think about

855
01:25:19,680 --> 01:25:25,840
scaling bitcoin versus scaling bitcoin in layers if if that question makes sense

856
01:25:25,840 --> 01:25:33,520
yeah so in this in that question i'm also a little bit pedantic and i think here in this case

857
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:39,120
is even more important to be pedantic because the question of scaling bitcoin is really something

858
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:46,320
that you can attack from many different angles when some people say scaling bitcoin sometimes

859
01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:54,000
they only mean scaling bitcoin economically in a sense that more people participate in bitcoin

860
01:25:54,000 --> 01:26:04,560
somehow so for in some sense you could say that coinbase is scales bitcoin because tens of hundreds

861
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:11,760
of i don't know maybe millions of users use coinbase and use bitcoin in some way even though they

862
01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:19,360
these users won't be touching the base chain don't hold their own keys and in a very strict sense

863
01:26:19,360 --> 01:26:26,960
are not using bitcoin but they're using a database that coinbase provides so there's this way of

864
01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:33,120
looking at it but the other more challenging and more important way of looking at bitcoin scaling

865
01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:38,960
is the technical scaling of bitcoin and what do we mean by that and usually what we mean by that is

866
01:26:38,960 --> 01:26:45,600
scaling the number of people who can use bitcoin in a sovereign way and a sovereign way means

867
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:53,200
that you hold your keys and you hold your keys and your money cannot be taken away from you

868
01:26:53,920 --> 01:27:00,400
even if you don't cooperate or if you or if you're part of a layer that also means that you

869
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:07,680
should be able to exit that layer at any moment once you don't want to use this layer anymore

870
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:13,280
so let's take lightning as an example and why this is a true scaling technology for bitcoin

871
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:19,040
is in lightning you put your bitcoin into a multi-sig with someone so you hold keys you're not the

872
01:27:19,040 --> 01:27:26,400
only holder of that multi-sig keys it's also your channel partner but and then you can use bitcoin

873
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:32,720
very very fast and it scales greatly and the number of bitcoin transactions can go 1000x or

874
01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:38,800
something like that so and crucially you can also exit lightning whenever you want so even if your

875
01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:44,400
peer goes offline you can always force close the channel and then if you did something wrong your

876
01:27:44,400 --> 01:27:49,040
peer will be able to punish you in the in the way that currently lightning currently works

877
01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:55,040
but it's very important that you can you can choose to exit the relationship at any moment

878
01:27:55,040 --> 01:28:00,160
and you pay your on-chain fees and the bitcoin is again in your hardware wallet so and that I think

879
01:28:00,160 --> 01:28:06,880
that is a necessity for anything to be considered a scaling solution for bitcoin and I say this

880
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:13,040
you know from a people tell me that tell me that e-cash scares bitcoin or cash use scales bitcoin

881
01:28:13,040 --> 01:28:20,000
and I tell them no it does not so as bitcoiners we cannot and I see this over and over in in

882
01:28:20,000 --> 01:28:26,480
discussions and I just want to be very frank and direct upfront with it e-cash does not scale bitcoin

883
01:28:27,120 --> 01:28:34,400
e-cash is just something that was waiting for bitcoin to exist so we built e-cash is separated

884
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:40,240
from bitcoin it allows many more users to participate in bitcoin economically but it does not change

885
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:47,280
the fundamental issues of bitcoin which are scaling related so as bitcoins we cannot be lazy

886
01:28:47,280 --> 01:28:55,280
and just hope that some form of custodial system or delegated system or anything you know federated

887
01:28:55,280 --> 01:29:03,600
custodial system or something will save our assets and and kind of fix the fee or block size or

888
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:10,560
or transaction speed or UTX or ownership problem however you want to express it so don't get lazy

889
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:17,040
and don't see e-cash as a solution to the to the scaling problem because it is not and so

890
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:24,400
so that ramped aside I think there are still ways that we can scale bitcoin and this goes into

891
01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:32,560
direction of covenants for example is a topic that is being discussed very very actively now and it

892
01:29:32,560 --> 01:29:39,280
allows solutions true scaling solutions like the lightning network also offers in a in a sense

893
01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:46,240
that now we're thinking about a lot about UTX or co-ownership so instead of just being able to hold

894
01:29:46,240 --> 01:29:52,800
your own UTX OS maybe one UTX or could be owned by multiple people and they could be in a kind of

895
01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:59,360
an arrangement together where still everyone who wants to exit that arrangement can do so at their

896
01:29:59,360 --> 01:30:05,120
own will so these are there are still these these conditions for a true scaling solution where you

897
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:10,800
are sovereign and you hold keys and you can exit whenever you want these are the goals of scaling

898
01:30:10,800 --> 01:30:18,960
solutions for example using an opcode update like opctd and all the different proposals that we've seen

899
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:25,520
like ARC or payment timeout trees and so on so forth so there are multiple things on the table

900
01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:32,160
but again I want to say eCash is not one of them eCash allows us to build the best custodial systems

901
01:30:32,160 --> 01:30:42,400
that exist today anywhere and and it also allows us to improve other payment technologies or monies

902
01:30:42,400 --> 01:30:48,800
so to speak so you could even you know fix fiat banking with eCash but obviously that is not a

903
01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:54,160
way to scale bitcoin so just making that example I'm making an example to make it very clear that

904
01:30:54,160 --> 01:31:01,520
it's a separate thing and it does not improve or fix the base layer of bitcoin which is some

905
01:31:01,520 --> 01:31:07,600
that which is what we should focus on when we talk about scaling I really appreciate that clarification

906
01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:12,720
because it is very easy to and I'm sure that I myself am guilty of this at times of saying that

907
01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:17,520
this you know as I just said you know oh is eCash a scaling solution for bitcoin I appreciate the

908
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:23,200
clarification that no it is not it is separate it provides a valuable service that bitcoin happens

909
01:31:23,200 --> 01:31:28,880
to be the perfect monetary medium to use with that service which we did not have before until bitcoin

910
01:31:29,520 --> 01:31:35,920
was was discovered but it is not a strict scaling solution for bitcoin itself so I appreciate that

911
01:31:35,920 --> 01:31:40,640
clarification and the last thing I wanted to ask you which is perfectly segues from the last thing

912
01:31:40,640 --> 01:31:47,840
you said which is fiat banking rails and eCash I know that I think the Bank of International

913
01:31:47,840 --> 01:31:53,280
Settlements put out a report I want to say was maybe in in November maybe it was before that

914
01:31:53,280 --> 01:32:00,160
but it was about a project Turbulin or something similar to that where they're basically trying to

915
01:32:00,160 --> 01:32:09,200
demonstrate eCash or cash like anonymity for CBDCs using eCash I know this is probably a very big

916
01:32:09,200 --> 01:32:14,800
topic and we don't have much time but can you just give me your kind of overall thoughts on this

917
01:32:14,800 --> 01:32:20,880
and do you think that we actually is this just an exercise in futility for central bankers because

918
01:32:20,880 --> 01:32:27,760
realistically I don't think they want eCash they don't want their CBDCs to to have cash like privacy

919
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:34,160
preserving features I mean unless they are much more altruistic than I currently believe I'm curious

920
01:32:34,160 --> 01:32:40,720
of your take on this yes so this is also something I asked myself is what are the intentions of these

921
01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:49,600
campaigns but to summarize for people who might not have seen this is at least for the ECB European

922
01:32:49,600 --> 01:32:57,360
Central Bank proposal of how to build a CBDC this is the case is that there are multiple different

923
01:32:57,360 --> 01:33:04,880
applications for how to build a CBDC and most of them are from big banks and big big financial

924
01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:12,240
institutions but one of those proposals is a system called GLUTALA and this is another

925
01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:19,120
significant eCash project out there and I would say with Fedim and Keshu and GLUTALA are probably the

926
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:26,960
three most well-known eCash projects and GLUTALA is an eCash project built for Fiat and it has its

927
01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:33,360
own problems it's not ideal and I'm not the biggest fan of it although I mean because of some of the

928
01:33:33,360 --> 01:33:39,760
of its properties but anyway it is still and this is something you know this is a strong statement

929
01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:47,120
but among privacy aware people it is generally accepted that a CBDC built on eCash would be the

930
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:52,320
best CBDC that we can currently think of and this this sounds like kind of an oxymoron but you have

931
01:33:52,320 --> 01:33:58,480
to integrate this into your brain something that can be bad can also be better than something even

932
01:33:58,480 --> 01:34:06,960
worse and so this is this is how I see GLUTALA and also the project that you have mentioned from the

933
01:34:06,960 --> 01:34:11,840
Bank of International settlement I think it is based on GLUTALA I'm not quite sure but I think it

934
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:18,320
goes into the same direction now the question is why are they doing this why don't they just do a

935
01:34:18,320 --> 01:34:24,640
full on PayPal account based CBDC and the server at the central bank and trust me you will get it so

936
01:34:24,640 --> 01:34:32,640
this you we will have the full controllable transparent CBDC that can be completely controlled

937
01:34:32,640 --> 01:34:43,760
but I think there is at least in in the case of the ECB some you know significant public pressure

938
01:34:43,760 --> 01:34:50,560
of the public of stakeholders of privacy advocates of politicians in the EU itself

939
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:57,520
to push for privacy preserving alternatives because even in our Bitcoin solo in our Bitcoin bubble

940
01:34:57,520 --> 01:35:03,520
we sometimes think that the entire world is against us and they don't value the things that we value

941
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:10,000
and that's not really the case so if you look into the activity going on around the CBDC there

942
01:35:10,000 --> 01:35:15,200
are also many critical people about CBDCs who are not Bitcoiners obviously Bitcoiners know

943
01:35:15,200 --> 01:35:21,920
not most about CBDCs probably from any of these groups because we're challenging this paradigm

944
01:35:21,920 --> 01:35:27,760
directly but also in the realm of the more established people who comment on this in this

945
01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:34,720
in this banking world there's also voices that say we need some level of privacy and this is not

946
01:35:35,360 --> 01:35:39,920
you know you won't get privacy for everything that you do I don't believe in that at all

947
01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:44,560
but you might get privacy for a smaller amount transactions this is something that you know

948
01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:50,560
you can find also quotes by central bankers who hypothesize with the idea of maybe allowing a

949
01:35:50,560 --> 01:35:56,400
small balance of 300 euros or something that you can use privately they don't say explicitly which

950
01:35:56,400 --> 01:36:02,480
technology would qualify for that but for me it's pretty obvious and clear that they are considering

951
01:36:02,480 --> 01:36:08,880
or the only solution that really would make sense is an e-cash solution for those cases so I would

952
01:36:08,880 --> 01:36:16,080
not be completely surprised if we get a full on totalitarian CBDC plus an e-cash solution on the

953
01:36:16,080 --> 01:36:24,880
side of that and the e-cash solution somehow allows us or the users of that CBDC to do private

954
01:36:24,880 --> 01:36:30,720
transactions on a small scale and that is already better than nothing but I'm pretty sure that you

955
01:36:30,720 --> 01:36:37,760
won't get privacy in general for CBDCs because that's not the point. Yeah it's maybe they end up using

956
01:36:37,760 --> 01:36:44,400
the small scale private transactions you know only up to 300 euro or something like that as their

957
01:36:44,400 --> 01:36:49,680
justification for look we gave you the privacy here but you know if you want to do anything larger

958
01:36:49,680 --> 01:36:56,800
than that then we're gonna you know be a bunch of totalitarian surveilling you know dictators on

959
01:36:56,800 --> 01:37:01,120
top of you and there's nothing you can do about that it maybe it's the it's the kind of foot in the

960
01:37:01,120 --> 01:37:06,560
door technique to appease the privacy advocates and then they can still roll out their full scale

961
01:37:06,560 --> 01:37:13,920
dystopian you know central bank digital currency I don't know that huh that almost that almost is

962
01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:18,240
more worrisome that they use the foot in the door like that in some ways I don't know well we'll see

963
01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:23,440
that could be it's a that's I think a general question that is hard to answer I have problem

964
01:37:23,440 --> 01:37:30,800
answering it myself is you know whether providing half privacy solutions is better than providing

965
01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:39,600
no privacy solutions at all this is a topic you know in and of itself same could be asked for

966
01:37:39,600 --> 01:37:47,600
systems that are not perfect like Tor or signal that give you the impression of privacy and you

967
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:55,440
really get privacy it's much much better privacy than not using them but are you are you safe if

968
01:37:55,440 --> 01:38:04,400
you are targeted as an individual that's another question so I cannot answer that question perfectly

969
01:38:04,400 --> 01:38:10,880
but it feels to me that everything that improves privacy even incrementally is something that we

970
01:38:10,880 --> 01:38:18,640
should pursue and in that sense I would even support a cbdc that uses e-cash because I know

971
01:38:18,640 --> 01:38:24,960
that there are much much more worse designs that could be implemented as well but again my prediction

972
01:38:24,960 --> 01:38:32,080
would be that we definitely get the the bad one and maybe we get the good one in a small scale

973
01:38:32,080 --> 01:38:38,240
as well if we're very lucky but if not it doesn't matter because we're still building it on bitcoin

974
01:38:38,240 --> 01:38:44,720
and for to build it on bitcoin you don't need the permission of these people and we'll just have to

975
01:38:45,440 --> 01:38:50,240
fix it fix it ourselves and I believe we have the better coders we have the better hackers

976
01:38:50,240 --> 01:38:55,600
we have the better theoreticians and we also have the better money so I'm not worried too much about

977
01:38:55,600 --> 01:39:02,800
the future amen to that that's a perfect note to end on um I first of all really appreciate

978
01:39:02,800 --> 01:39:07,760
you sharing your scarce time because bitcoin is scarce like your time but bitcoin podcasts are

979
01:39:07,760 --> 01:39:12,080
abundant so thank you very much for coming on this one thank you for answering my questions

980
01:39:12,080 --> 01:39:16,800
I think this is going to be really useful for a lot of people I'll include your your

981
01:39:16,800 --> 01:39:23,680
uh noster and twitter links and whatnot but in terms of uh you know different e-cash projects

982
01:39:24,480 --> 01:39:34,320
npub.cash uh enuts cashew is it cashew.me to get to the wall or cashew.space to find the project's

983
01:39:34,320 --> 01:39:41,920
main website and you find also the documentation space there for developers if if you'll allow me

984
01:39:41,920 --> 01:39:49,760
I'll do a special shout out to developers listening to this we're in dire need we're an unfunded open

985
01:39:49,760 --> 01:39:56,080
free and open source project we live of contributors like you and if you're looking for

986
01:39:56,960 --> 01:40:02,240
any bitcoin project and you know you want to get your hands dirty and finally work on something in

987
01:40:02,240 --> 01:40:09,040
this space feel free and be invited warmly to join us in our mission at cashew.space you'll find

988
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:17,120
information you can just reach me using any any channel that that you like and I'll hold your

989
01:40:17,120 --> 01:40:23,280
hands and show you the ecosystem and show where you can help because we definitely need help so

990
01:40:23,280 --> 01:40:29,520
if you're hearing this please consider it all right that a great message to end on well thank

991
01:40:29,520 --> 01:40:35,200
you so much for your time I really again appreciate it and this was fascinating I'll just ask you to

992
01:40:35,200 --> 01:40:41,040
stay for a moment after I cut the recording just to let it upload fully but thank you again Cali

993
01:40:41,040 --> 01:40:47,040
this was fantastic I learned a lot and I could probably ask you questions for a few more hours

994
01:40:47,040 --> 01:40:51,920
but we'll have to save that for next time so thank you so much thanks for having me walker I appreciate

995
01:40:51,920 --> 01:41:04,880
things and that's a wrap on this bitcoin talk episode of the bitcoin podcast if you are a bitcoin

996
01:41:04,880 --> 01:41:10,640
only company interested in sponsoring another fucking bitcoin podcast head to bitcoinpodcast.net

997
01:41:10,640 --> 01:41:17,840
or hit me up on social media on noster head to primal.net slash walker and on twitter search for

998
01:41:17,840 --> 01:41:24,960
at walker america or at titcoin podcast you can also watch the video version of this show on x or

999
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:32,160
on youtube by going to youtube.com slash at walker america or rumble by searching for at walker america

1000
01:41:32,160 --> 01:41:39,600
bitcoin is scarce there will only ever be 21 million but bitcoin podcasts are abundant so thank

1001
01:41:39,600 --> 01:41:46,000
you for spending your scarce time to listen to another fucking bitcoin podcast until next time

1002
01:41:46,000 --> 01:42:01,920
stay free