We are so, so early. We are so incredibly early.
I mean, you can test this for yourself.
Just walk along the street and pick 10 people at random and say,
why do we need Bitcoin?
I'd be amazed if anyone could tell you.
It's just very clear we're just so early.
There's a handful of countries which are actively looking at these things.
Most of the world is totally asleep on it, totally asleep.
I mean, we know everything.
We step through those things.
If we know everybody who puts the work in never goes back.
And once you've put the work in, you never go back.
You then never want to hold anything else.
The natural consequence of that is over a passage of time,
everybody ends up in that position.
And if everybody ends up in that position,
you never want to hold anything else.
Bitcoin consumes the entire world.
And so $100,000 is nothing.
It's nothing in the grand scheme of things.
And it's also been measured in a frame of reference that is...
attached to the big red button.
So you measure it in dollars.
The more people that opt in to Bitcoin and opt out of the fear-tellers,
the more fear-tellers he has to print.
And so, you know, Bitcoin's going up forever.
Bitcoin's going up forever.
It's going to eat the entire world.
Eating is in salutations, my fellow plebs.
My name is Walker and this is The Bitcoin Podcast.
The Bitcoin time chain is 8-7-9-6-6-5.
And the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.
Today's episode is Bitcoin Talk,
where I talk with my guest about Bitcoin and whatever else comes up.
And today, that guest is Joe Bryan.
Joe just released an incredible video called What's the Problem?
And it's honestly one of the best Bitcoin videos I have ever seen.
If you haven't checked it out yet, grab the link in the show notes,
watch it, and share it far and wide.
This was a great conversation with Joe talking about the problems with fiat money,
our broken incentive system, how Bitcoin fixes this, and what happens next.
Before we dive in, do me a favor and subscribe to The Bitcoin Podcast,
wherever you're listening, and make sure to subscribe on YouTube or Rumble as well
by searching at WalkerAmerica.
Send an email to hello at bitcoinpodcast.net if you have feedback
or are interested in sponsoring The Bitcoin Podcast.
And lastly, this episode is something new.
It's a pure value for value episode with no sponsorships.
So, if you find this show valuable, consider giving value back
by giving it a zap on Noster or a boost on Fountain.
I truly appreciate it.
Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk with Joe Bryan.
Joe, we are good to go now. We are live.
Thanks so much for being here.
Excited to dive into this.
As I was just saying before we went live here, I watched your video,
and I've obviously seen a lot of Bitcoin videos.
I think you and I both have.
Anyone who's on Bitcoin, Twitter, or X or Noster has seen a lot of Bitcoin videos
trying to explain why people should get into Bitcoin.
And that's great.
I've made a lot of videos like that myself with my lovely wife.
Ours are usually a little bit more of a humorous take in shorter form,
but this was about a 30-minute deep dive into Bitcoin,
but not starting with Bitcoin,
not even really mentioning Bitcoin until quite far along in it,
but the video is just what's the problem.
And I saw it and I said, I need to get you on here.
I think I DM'd you shortly after, and here you sit.
So welcome, first of all. Glad to have you.
Thank you for making this video.
I thought it was brilliant.
You created something really special with it.
Well, thank you.
And thank you for having me on.
This is another surreal moment in a week of surreal moments.
So thanks for reaching out as well.
And I didn't say this to you before,
but you were the first person I saw to take the video, download it,
and then repost it to your audience and really amplify it.
I'm glad to hear that.
So thank you for doing that because we didn't...
I had no idea you were doing that.
And it took me by surprise and it just went.
And I think you giving it that boost,
put it on a lot of other people's radars,
and then ultimately it ends up for those getting saled.
When I saw Sailor posted, I was like,
okay, that is the true kind of mark of...
If Sailor decides to share something on his own timeline,
that means a lot.
So congratulations.
But I think it was well deserved.
We live in this very short-term instant gratification.
I need whatever it is that you're telling me to be told me
in the first 30 seconds or I'm scrolling to the next.
And so I think videos like this are honestly a challenge
because it was about 30 minutes or so,
maybe a couple minutes more.
It's 39 minutes.
39 minutes.
I mean, that is...
I was really...
I've never made a video before.
Really?
You're so right.
No, no, no.
You're so right.
This is my first...
I've been brand new YouTube channel.
I've just created one and published it.
I've never created content for anybody
outside of a business framework.
And so I was already conscious it was going to be quite long.
And then by the time we've done the intro and then the outro
and then the explainer about...
If you are interested to learn more about Bitcoin,
then why you should give it a second chance.
And then what to do...
In all of those things, adding up to like 30 or 35 minutes,
I thought, oh no, people are going to lose interest.
It's not going to fit with how social media is these days.
But I've been proved wrong.
You know, I think that there...
As much as I would say most people have a very short attention span,
there are the people who do have the capability of paying attention
just a little bit longer than 30 seconds.
Those are the people that are actually open to new ideas anyway.
If your attention span is so short that you cannot be bothered to look into something
for more than 30 seconds, you know what?
Maybe you're just not quite ready.
So I think it's in a way having something a little bit longer
as a filtering mechanism to say, okay, you're going to have to dedicate
39 minutes of your scarce time to this.
But in my opinion, 39 minutes incredibly well spent.
And what I loved about this video, again, was that you didn't lead with Bitcoin.
You led with the problem.
And as we were talking about just before we came on here,
until somebody understands what the problem is,
they're not looking or they're not open to a solution,
even if it's presented right in front of their face, wrapped up with a nice bright orange bow,
they won't care because they don't understand that that solution is a solution
to the problem that they acutely feel.
And so I want to get into this...
I want to get into the video.
I want to get into a lot of things with you.
Just maybe before we kind of dive into some of that,
just if you can...
Who are you? How did you get here today?
To all of a sudden decide to be making this, you know, this SATS-vers Fiat website
to creating these tools, educational tools to show people about the problems with Fiat and Bitcoin.
What was your journey here?
Well, I found Bitcoin in 2020.
During the pandemic, you know, there's a lot of people, a lot of people did,
you know, for various reasons, you know, for what was happening around us,
but also having more, you know, a big change in just the way your life is.
You'd have more time, you have much less travelling,
and then you'd start to be thinking more and, you know, going down the rabbit hole.
But, you know, my background before that, I did physics at university,
and then went straight to Goldman Sachs, and I was a derivatives trader for 10 years.
I'm almost down there in UBS as well, but primarily Goldman.
And then I always wanted to be a bookmaker when I was, you know, growing up.
So I used to work in the betting shops in, when I was 18, you know, in New Yorkshire.
And by then, you know, it was, you know, physical, you know, writing on bits of paper
and, you know, selling all the bets, things like that.
I always loved the maths behind it.
And so, during the time that I was, you know, the last couple of years of working in the city,
I started applying the maths underlying, you know, derivatives pricing to sports
and trying to calculate what the probabilities of different outcomes were in sports events,
predominantly football, and then left the city to move into sports.
And, you know, within sort of a year and a half, two years, I'd met someone else doing,
who'd followed almost the exact same path.
He'd spent 15 years at Morgan Stanley doing fixed income derivatives.
But similarly, I'd applied the maths to football, realised the bookmakers don't do it very well, had left.
And we got together, he was an engineer, and I was a quant, well, trader.
And so we started our quant engineering business, wrote algos, real-time pricing across different sports,
and then we started supplying bookmakers with prices to help them improve their product
for their customers and also create new products driven from that real-time maths or more opaque maths,
which allows you to unlock more products and more interesting opportunities for your customers to make bets.
From a recreational perspective, I should say.
As a real-time required, then by biggest customer, I spent the last five, six years,
up until the start of last year, growing that business.
And I've become a very big business and I've had the opportunity to take a step out,
because I've reached the point where that business has grown so much,
it's very difficult for me to add the sort of value where I was adding initially in its growth,
and there are now far better people to do the things that I was doing.
And secondly, there's just nothing else more important than working on Bitcoin.
And so, you know, for the last nine months, I have been thinking about nothing else.
Then Bitcoin, where this is going, what I can do to help push it forward,
and all the opportunities that, you know, a Bitcoin future is going to unlock for everybody,
and ultimately, you know, building Bitcoin businesses.
So, you know, that's the whistle-stop tour of there to here.
So, yeah, we could dig into the video creation or whatever you would like.
Yeah, I do want to get into the video creation.
You know, I saw so many people say that this, and I would concur with this,
this is either the best or one of the best kind of Bitcoin explainer videos that they'd ever seen,
or that I'd ever seen.
And I think that's true.
The fact that this was like your first foray into doing this,
I think is really impressive.
And I think what was so impactful for me about the video,
because of course, you know, like yourself, I'm deep down the rabbit hole, right?
But I tried to watch, excuse me, watch the video from the perspective of, you know,
put on my previous set of no-coiner eyes.
You know, like I wish I would have seen this video earlier in my own journey,
because it does such a great job of laying things out in a really orderly, well-constructed way,
where it just, it builds, it builds, it builds.
And by the time you get to the part where you talk about Bitcoin, you understand the problem.
But you understand it through these nice characters, you know, kind of Pixar-esque type characters.
It'd be great to see, you know, some, I hope that somebody out there can use some AI tools
and make a full-blown animation of this, because I think it would make a lovely movie for both children and adults.
But so if anyone out there listening has some of those capabilities, they should maybe reach out to you.
Yeah, get in touch.
Seriously.
Get in touch. Absolutely, yeah.
But I want to kind of, maybe a starting point is, why, you know, you called it, What's the Problem?
And I think that was, that's really powerful.
But why do you think it's so hard for people to see the problem or to identify the problem?
Why do we even need to start with the problem that, to some of us seems self-evident at this point,
we're so deep down the rabbit hole, but we forget that for the average person, it's not self-evident.
It's not self-evident at all.
But I think the key, the key part of that question, Walker, is you said at this point, it's self-evident.
You've reached a point in your journey where it's now just so obvious.
But going back to, I mean, 2019, perhaps, where, you know, that would not have been the case.
And, you know, you're, you still considered yourself to be equally smart and very equally well informed at that point in time,
had you had to, you know, self-attest to that.
So, you know, what's the difference? What's the difference?
And it's so, you know, I think one of the things, and I'm certainly guilty of it as well,
is that when you go through that one-way door into Bitcoin, that you just see the world so differently,
then it makes it very hard to communicate back to somebody who is not coming at it from the same perspective,
because you lose that shared basis of sort of rationale.
And, you know, you're like, you sound like a crazy person or like somebody who's like trying to convince them to do something
and it's not in their best interest and these sorts of things, because they haven't been through those logical leaps that you have.
And I would say, I mean, this is sort of the way I think about it within Bitcoin is that, you know, we started with the white paper.
And for somebody to read the white paper and to imagine a future of where we are now and where we're going is such a massive leap.
The number of people capable of A, seeing the white paper and then B, making that leap is so incredibly small.
And so the people who do then make it a little bit easier for the next generation of people coming in,
because now more material, there's a bit more structure, there's more thinking that has been done.
Another piece of the map has been revealed.
And, you know, over time we get more and more of this map revealed and the gap between where we currently are and everybody is reduced,
but we're still quite away.
It's still quite away.
And, you know, we've had, you know, a tremendous amount of great content and thinking around, you know, political aspects,
the thought process, the economics, you know, we have finance coming in on top of the, you know, the cipher punks.
And, you know, each layer sort of deals with a little bit different other aspects of society,
which allows different cohorts of the population to come in because it intersects with their existing knowledge or interest.
And then we have, you know, podcasters crop up and make it much more accessible again.
And it's sort of, you get the technical guests on and then they sort of try and pass it through a more human, I say wrong phrase,
but like a more human filter, like make it more widely accessible.
But still it's like, it's really challenging stuff, right?
But at each stage you're making that bubble slightly bigger.
And, you know, we had the books from Lyn Alden and Alex Gladstein and Jeff Booth and all these guys making it even easier again.
And, you know, you have safety and with the Bitcoin standards obviously, you know, but the gap from those to everybody is still big
because they don't get why they should even bother, right?
If they were motivated, the path is now there for them, right?
But it's like, how do you solve the motivation question?
And so I really, I hope, and it seems like this is slot that what's the problem is slotting in really nicely as sort of,
it's just the thing you sent to your friends before you send them, you know, broken money or Bitcoin standard or, you know, price and tomorrow.
A big reading list, yeah.
Yeah, something where they've actually got to put some effort in themselves rather than just sitting there and looking at, you know, looking at screen.
And, you know, the rest to do that as well, but you know, you know what I mean.
So it's like that really gentle, that gentle orange pilling where they don't even realize they're being orange pilled because you don't even talk about Bitcoin until they themselves have been through the mental,
the logical sequencing through the video so that when you get to the end, the solution is so obvious.
The problem, the problem is so obvious, the fact that there was a better alternative in the video is so obvious.
And so when you say, well, that better alternative is actually real, right?
It's just Bitcoin.
So come and learn about Bitcoin.
That makes it such a small gap at the end, because they think, well, I've already, I've already made that decision in my own mind.
Like, I've decided to learn about this.
So great.
Like, you're not forcing that they're leading themselves there.
So that's a very long answer to your question, but I hope it.
No, it's a great answer.
And, you know, I'd love to maybe just get in a little bit to how you constructed the part of what's the problem.
Like, how did, what was your process for deciding, okay, this is how I need to go through it?
Like, you know, and you set it up using like an example that people have used before, basically on a, you know, on a desert island, essentially create like this, create this isolated test.
Case, basically, and then split that island in half.
But how did you decide, okay, this is, you know, it's very easy to get into the weeds with some of this stuff as like, you know, you start talking about Austrian economics concepts and most people's eyes glaze over.
So how did you decide to structure the problem so that it was actually going to be accessible but not feel like, you know, you're somehow, you know, the other extreme of that is you sound like you're, you know, trying to talk to a child or something.
Maybe people feel like their intelligence is insulted.
Like, how did you strike a balance there and how did you decide to construct what is the problem?
Well, I think there's a lot of luck involved in this.
Okay, you know, I'd love to be able to say, oh, well, you know, I thought, you know, long and hard about all these different aspects.
It just felt like the right way to do it.
And, you know, I did manage to get a mention of Austrian economics in there and several mentions of, you know, Hayek as well.
So, you know, it'll take some boxes for people to, but yeah, getting that tone right and the balance right between sort of dumbing it down too much or making it too technical was quite hard.
And I, as you can imagine, I had to cut quite a lot out.
There's especially one slide in there, which is the flow chart that gradually gets revealed where, you know, things just start to spiral out of control and you have issues appearing everywhere in society just because, you know,
Fiatella has gone and pressed this big red button to print the extra money where, I mean, that took me a long time to actually just even figure out how to visually represent in a way which it wasn't overpowering for the viewer.
Because, you know, there's a lot going on and a lot of interconnected things and, you know, there's big issues in society that I didn't even get on the page.
Because, you know, I was running out of space and I was like, okay, how am I going to solve this?
But one of the things that was really, really helpful and to get that balance right in delivery was by running through with people.
You know, people from different backgrounds, bit coiners and non-bit coiners from different countries, you know, in person and online,
asking them to, you know, can I show you a presentation for 30 minutes and you give me some feedback on it.
And, you know, I give the presentation, they give some feedback, I then tweak the presentation, I give another presentation and tweak it again and tweak it again and tweak it.
And having gone through that process for probably a month before filming it was incredibly valuable because I got all these different insights, you know, from teenagers to, you know, pensioners to, you know,
hardcore, bit coin maxis all over the, you know, different parts of the world.
So I ended up trying to sort of shave off any sharp edges or things were unclear or ambiguous.
So, yeah, a big thank you to everybody who gave me that feedback.
And, yeah, help me create this, but I would say walk it. If I did it again, I would write a script.
Was this not scripted? Did you just go through the presentation basically while on camera and just kind of like you were just going off the cuff basically?
Yeah, I just did it a couple of times.
That's impressive.
But now, you know, because I didn't expect many people to watch it, to be honest.
You know, it's the naivety of doing something for the first time when you're totally inexperienced at doing that thing.
You think it's going to be a lot easier than it is.
And then afterwards she like, OK, well, if I did this again, I'd be much better at it.
And so, you know, I had to download all the subtitles off YouTube and make them all perfect, especially now because I'm to do so many translations into different languages.
You know, we've got, I think, 14 languages live at this point and another 10 or 15 in progress from all from Bitcoin volunteers around the world who have got in touch and say, look, I'd love to translate this into Slovenian or Polish or, you know,
even some regional languages within countries. It's just incredible.
But yeah, I wish I'd written the scripts because it had just been a lot, just even tighter than it was. But I'm still happy with the output to be honest.
I mean, I think maybe there's sometimes when you try to polish things too much, it ends up seeming like just that.
I mean, it was tried, you know, someone was trying to make this too polished.
The fact that you did this kind of off the cuff based on just you walking through this set of slides that you had.
I mean, I think clearly it resonated with people like very clearly.
You've also, by the way, got just like a great voice for it. It just it sounded very, very well. You know, it was very soothing throughout the whole time.
You know, so like you're talking about all these problems with fiat, all these issues in our society.
But it's like you feel kind of calm while you're while you're taking it in.
So that was well done.
I'm glad I was actually worried it would go the other way because I worried there wouldn't be enough energy in it.
But I think the feedback is actually that that's actually worked quite nicely because, you know, if you have too much energy or you seem quite dogmatic about something, it can be off-putting as well.
Yeah, I know I must say that we didn't put some music in the background, which is a bit like almost like spa like, you know, it's quite relaxing music.
Yeah, it was nice.
Yeah, yeah, I would say like 95% of people like it 5% people really don't like it.
And so, you know, it's, you know, maybe maybe we'll throw up a video at some point as well that just doesn't have the background music to keep the remaining 5% completely happy.
You know, throw in some just like some death metal in there in the background just to go with a totally different vibe because I mean music changes everything, right?
Like it sets the tone for what you're going through.
But you know, I would love if you could talk a little bit about these characters and maybe, you know, we I don't expect you to give the whole presentation here, but just kind of talk about how you set this up.
You know, with with Satoshi and Fiatello, like talk about these characters set the stage for us a little bit about, you know, what's happening on this island, basically.
Yes.
So the idea, the idea here is that there's a there's a shipwreck onto a deserted island, but this deserted island is resource rich.
And it has everything that the stranded population could need to restart society.
But there's a huge number of them on this on this ship and they've come from a society with which is which is advanced.
And so they they know what a functional advanced society looks like.
They're just they're just stuck and they have to start again.
And, you know, the first challenge they have is, you know, because I know where the story is going.
It's probably not the first challenge you would have in reality, but, you know, it's pitched as, you know, we're going to need to trade with each other.
So let's figure out what monetary system we're going to use.
And then you have to, you know, suspend your disbelief because you they're there in, you know, torn clothing, but they create whatever technical solution they want.
So it's like, you know, we'll leave that aside for now.
And then you they decide to create perfect money.
And, you know, it basically describes Bitcoin, you know, the seven, you know, the C7 characteristics.
Of perfect money.
And so people up front very much get an idea.
Okay, well, yeah, that makes sense because most people I've never even thought about it.
As you know, like we live in this little world where everyone's thinking about, you know, different aspects of money, you know, the whole time.
But for most people, you know, you ask them and there's just a blank look on their face because it's just like, you know, it's the thing you have in the pocket.
They haven't really thought about any of those characteristics before.
And so, you know, we get through those.
And then it sounds like, okay, great.
But then there's a disagreement and, you know, Satoshi, the two leaders emerge and one of them Satoshi and one of them is called Fiatello.
And Satoshi's like, well, this is perfect money.
So, you know, why would we ever need to change it?
Like we all agree on the characteristics.
But Fiatello, you know, he's trying to be a bit more conservative or, you know, put too much faith in the world.
He puts too much faith in humanity or too much, maybe he has too much pride in humanity, perhaps, because he thinks humanity may need to change it because it will, you know, we can improve on perfection.
But he says, you know, let's do this, but let's just add a big red button.
And the big red button, no one will ever touch it.
But it's there just in case.
Just in case we ever need to change anything, but I promise no one's going to touch it.
You know, and so it's what I quite like about that is it's, you don't have to, you know, over, because I tried to make it really accessible to everybody.
Anybody like a child can sit down and watch that.
Anyone with, you know, no financial background can sit down and watch this.
And just the visual of a big red button just it abstracts away all of the, you know, complexities of money printing or, you know, the financial system or anything like that.
It's just like, whenever you want to change it, you just press the button and you change something.
Right. And it's, you know, it's quite a hand wavy, but it just simplifies the whole thing for people because, you know, once you read about Bitcoin, then you can go down like, you know, what is money?
You know, like, how does the financial system work?
What is debt and what's, you know, credit and all of these different things.
But, you know, so it's very much a simplified version.
And then it takes us on, you know, but they disagree and they build this big wall down the middle of the island.
And it's so, it's so big that they just be cut off and they can't communicate, but they're effectively identical.
And then we go through to really a, you know, two or three minutes of what is a free market and like what it really, what is the price distilling the price of tomorrow into two or three minutes, you know, from Jeff Booth.
That was really, that was the inspiration for those, for those slides where they're going from living hand to mouth to specialization, to innovation and investment.
And then they end up growing and becoming prosperous as a society, but with prices falling and quality going up.
And so naturally, the quality of life for everybody lifts even the people who are unproductive on the island because the money itself is becoming more valuable, which is exactly how, exactly how money is supposed to work.
Right. This is then, and I go through that so people have a, have a, a rooting in what natural evolution looks like in a perfect money system.
And, and it's obvious because you step through the logic yourself as the, as the person viewing it and well, you think, well, of course that's the case.
Because, but if you start with today's world and you go, well, no, we need to change that and that's where we'll end up.
Then that's such a harder leap to make. And as you end up with this, you know, effectively purchasing power, increasing of the money every year.
And you, you know, a government that is constrained.
And, but, but importantly, they then deal out of elect government on either side.
But I, I intentionally try to keep it as politically neutral as possible.
You know, because it's not about left, left and right, because they all have access to the button.
Like the left and right is, is other aspects. The access to the button is the thing that, that corrupts it all.
And so, you know, it was a very conscious decision to avoid, to avoid losing anybody for whatever reason along the journey.
And then, yeah, because, because Satoshi can't do anything, he ends up losing the election because he has a deficit and he has to raise the taxes or cut the spending.
And he doesn't have a choice because he can't print any, he can't, doesn't have access to a big red button, but Fiatello does.
And so, you know, Fiatello just in the background prints a bit of money, presses the big red button, doesn't have to raise taxes, doesn't have to cut spending, wins the election.
And thinks it's the greatest thing ever because there's no, there's no consequences to these actions.
And I, you know, I'm still in power and Satoshi's, Satoshi's been booted out.
But then, then things start to, start to spiral. And so, you know, we get into, you know, what happens when you debase the currency by printing money.
And then, you know, there's several different ways that inflation then distorts the free market, the impact on businesses, the impact on asset prices, what that then means for families.
And unemployment, homelessness, and all these secondary issues that then flow through society because of it and ultimately require the government to then come back in and solve them.
Or an appeal from the population to solve them. And therefore the government needs to spend more money trying to solve these issues, which then exacerbates the problem.
And it's government problem, appeal from the population to step in, government solution causes more government problems.
And then you just get the snowball and snowball and snowball and it ultimately leads Fiatello to just constantly press the big red button because it's the only way you can try and keep the show on the road until things really start to deteriorate.
And, you know, and it pulls in all of the difference, you know, all of the things that we read about and we carry around in our heads as Bitcoiners, because you are very, you're set up now for a lot of consequential thinking, like second, third order thinking, which is really not obvious to, to people who haven't sat down and done the work.
Right. And so these two or three slides in the middle where you go through the snowball effect, it's really, really high up in for people. You know, there's when I was doing the pre-launch, you know, one-on-ones with people in friends and family, lots of, you know, the reactions to that slide was quite dramatic in some cases.
Because, you know, it's just, I never knew, I never knew this because they know, they know these issues are around themselves. You know, they can feel it, but then to have it explained where they all come from, it's like, you know, the shades fall from your eyes.
It's like, I can, I can, I can put two and two together now. And then it spirals out of control because, you know, Fiatello ends up being pulling in Big Pharma and Wall Street and the defense companies and the media, because you can't allow people to be talking badly about the government or undermine the legitimacy.
And then, you know, they're all attached to the money printer and then things go round and round and then things start to break. And then we outline the different outcomes in that, you know, hyperinflation or asset seizures or politically extreme outcomes or something worse, you know, or civil war.
And then, and then we go back from there to sort of, to remind people like where we started, you know, we started with perfect money and Fiatello changes two aspects of them. He changes the money, his ability to print money, and then also on the way his ability to remove censorship resistance,
resistance of the money. He makes everyone put the money in the banks rather than hold it themselves. And so he's then able to bail them in and protect them, you know, by checking all the transactions, you know, very, very similar things that we experienced today.
And so by the time, of course, of course, and yeah, we feel very safe. And, and, you know, by, by the end of this story, Fiatello ends up, Fiatello's side of the island just looks like today.
We just looks like today. And then people recognize that it just looks like today. And then you go back and say, well, hang on, there were seven characteristics of this perfect money, he only changed two of them.
Right. And I looked where he ended up. And, and, and then there's the reveal. And, you know, the reveal is that the dollar is just a terrible version of the Fiatello.
And, you know, because it could be by that point, the viewer has realized very obviously from stepping through the logic themselves that Fiatello side of the island is terrible.
It's terrible. And it didn't have to be like that. They could have just kept with perfect money.
But it's terrible. And then you say they've already, they're already, they're already there. Right. And then you go, well, the reveal is Fiatello is actually just much better than what we have. Well, or what America has. Right.
And then like, okay, right. You know, and, and then you go through the, the growth of the US debt, you know, put in that in context for, you know, the, the basement of the dollar.
And then they go, well, that's pretty, I wouldn't want the dollar. And then, and then I go, well, the dollar is actually pretty good. And then you look at all the other currencies and be like, all right, well, those are much worse.
Those are much, much worse, which is the majority of the world. And by that point, you've already convinced yourself at the first step, let alone the second step or the third step that, you know, you don't want to even own Fiatello.
So why would you want to own the dollar? Why would you want to own the pound? Or why would you want to, you know, the Bolivar or, you know, whatever long tail of currencies there are?
Like it's, it becomes a no brainer at that point. And, you know, then the, I mean, that's fairly, it ends up being fairly depressing. Like once you, if you got to that point and went, all right, that's the end of the presentation.
You know, it would be, it would be depressing.
We're all screwed. Have fun. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Closing credit.
But then the, the, then it's the solution. Right. And the solution is the separation of money and state. That's it.
You know, the government cannot be allowed to have access to that big red button.
Because you can see what happens when they do. Right. And now you understand all these issues around yourselves are predominantly or in some cases exclusively because the government's pressing the big red button.
They're just not telling you, or they're not making it obvious, or they're deliberately hiding it in some cases. And, you know, so it's, I think it ends up being quite a very stark message for people.
And it's something you can just very much agree with. Like somebody shouldn't be able to print as much money as they want.
Like it's just, that sounds, that's just very obvious, right. But especially when it's laid out for you in terms of, you know, action consequence.
And so it's, yeah, we talk about hi-air, you know, and they'll slide around about where you've taken out control of governments.
And then I say like the good news that the good, the good news here is that Satoshi's, which is the currency they use on the other side of the island.
You've got the Pia Tellos and the Satoshi's. That Satoshi's are real.
Because you've already decided in your head that Satoshi's are great because, you know, by comparison, you go, well, Satoshi's are real.
Right. And the solution is Bitcoin. So you just need to come and learn about Bitcoin.
And then give them a way to then do that by, you know, reset the website up, sattsvsviat.com, which is there.
And you can just go and there's a section there for learners and you can just click the button and you'll get, you know, six starter videos and four bucks covering different aspects of Bitcoin.
Oh, there you go. There you go. So if you scroll down a little bit, you've got the video, which you can share easily.
And if you go down a bit further on the left, you can hit the learn button, which just takes you to a set of resources here.
And, you know, my six, my six starter videos for anybody.
So, you know, it's not just how Bitcoin works. It's trying to find videos that cover different aspects.
So at least when somebody lands here for the first time, they can find something that interests them.
You know, whether it's Alex Gladstein's, you know, humanitarian focus, you know, around the world and he touches on energy and commerce as well.
Or whether it's Lynn Alden's, you know, broken money understanding the financial system or its sailors.
You know, there is no second best presentation. And I challenge any, anybody with a business mind to watch that video.
And not immediately just want to learn everything they possibly can about Bitcoin. And then you've got, you know, something more technical but very accessible for how Bitcoin works.
And then the what Bitcoin did episode with Peter McCormack, where it's filmed on the plane and Jeff Booth and Alex Gladstein are all talking about, you know, the different aspects of the basement and debt across the world,
which is, you know, a very relaxed type of chat and just accessible to accessible to anybody.
And so, yeah, and then you've got the usual books below for those who are then motivated post the video to to step in and you know, I've included resistance money in there as well, which is, you know, gives a slightly different slightly different flavor.
In case someone's coming at it from a more structured or academic perspective.
So it's really a try to I've been talking for our feels probably about 10 minutes now.
That's all right. I told you, save save space for long-winded rants and comments. But no, I really, I think that the way that you've set this up is is quite brilliant and it's very accessible.
And I think that's what is needed right now is education that is as accessible as possible, because really even most people starting their journey aren't aren't necessarily going to go and watch, you know, one and a half to two hour podcast interview about something that maybe isn't really,
it's perhaps already talking to people who are partially down that rabbit hole already, right, like this, the video sets you up as a perfect primer.
And one of the things about the video that I thought was just was so powerful was that part where, you know, again, it's all it's this very nice kind of like Pixar ask, you know, fantasy make believe land.
But then once Fiat, I'll press is that big red button. Once he starts to base in the currency printing money, and you start to see those effects and you get to that flow chart and you start to see all of those downstream impacts.
As you said, like, it makes sense to me that in your kind of focus grouping of this, that was what really resonated with people in probably not so pleasant away.
Oftentimes, because it's a harsh reality to accept. But that is so powerful because so often we are told or we're, you know, we a problem is is out there prices are rising, you know, grocery prices are too high.
And it's blamed depending on the politician on any number of factors from greedy corporations to the ultra wealthy not paying their fair share to whichever political group happens to be in power at the time it's clearly their fault.
But the thing they never talk about is the money. They never talk about the thing that's actually at the root of it. They only talk about the symptoms the downstream symptoms of the actual disease and the disease is broken Fiat money.
The disease is debasement of the currency inflation of the money supply. But you never I mean you would be hard pressed to find anyone except maybe a couple of, you know, radical politicians somebody like Thomas Massey or, you know, you know, Iran, Paul to actually talk about the problem.
And then, you know, they're of course, you know, even by people in their own party kind of pushed to the side and said, Well, you know, he's just some crazy guy over there like anyway the real problem is the guys who are in office now or the real problem is the guys who were in office last time.
It's never talking about what's the problem. It's just here are the symptoms of the problem. And here are our proposals to put a bandaid on those symptoms but none of them treat the cancer none of them treat the disease.
They certainly don't cure it. They just put a little bandaid on it make people feel a little bit better for a short time, but nothing ever improves. You know, and I think that's that's the frustration people feel is that where you keep getting promised that we're going to fix X by doing why and you know, it'll work but it but it never works.
Nothing ever gets materially better or materially different.
It doesn't win votes. Yeah.
I mean, you're as a politician you're KPI is getting elected and staying in office.
See, your your target outcome is not aligned with solving those things target outcome is aligned with obfuscating those things, you know, and leaving it to the person who comes after you.
You know, that's not to say that all politicians or political parties, you know, would, if they were honest, frame it like that.
I think there is a lack of awareness as well. It's not just deceit. But it's a spectrum between the two for everyone individually involved and some are more on one end and some are more on the other.
But it's very hard in in this sort of governance system because you know you are they are beneficiaries of the system as well.
Yeah, especially in some countries like the like the US works. It's I think US and UK are sort of quite contrasted in in some of these things.
You know, the UK still feels very much more old world in terms of the separation of you know politics and lobbying and wealth creation for politicians.
Whereas, you know, perhaps as that link is is all stronger in the US or has been recently.
And so, yeah, when when all your incentives are just to keep the great gravy train flow, gravy train flowing, you're not going to change it.
You know, it's only really when your hand gets forced, I think, like, you know, it was eventually happened in Argentina or in El Salvador.
You know, obviously for different reasons in both of those countries, but you know, people want something different, but they want something different knowing that they're going to have to take the medicine with it.
Because you can't have something different and things just continue the way they are.
You know, it's like Milton Friedman says, you know, the it's like alcoholism, you know, the best effects come first and then you've got to pay for it later, but you still have to pay for it.
And, but, you know, I think there is, you know, game theory here allows some to pay a much lower price than others in terms of making this transition.
And if you are one of the one of the earlier countries to make that transition, it can actually be a, you know, a boon to you, the wealth of your country, the state of your economy, the outlook for you as a as a people versus versus coming later.
And yes, it's it's it's a challenge. It's it comes it comes down to governance structures.
And everyone has everyone has a different opinion on those things that you never going to get.
You're never going to get everyone to everyone to agree.
But if we can convince as many people as possible.
And go as in my convinces the wrong word, if we can help as many people as possible, rationalize the absolute need for the separation of money and state.
In the same way that we've gone through a similar separation of church and state, you know, in the past in in various countries, if we can get as many people to that logical position as possible, then making that next
becomes much easier because once you are in that position, the adoption of Bitcoin is inevitable.
And because it's a, you know, as a peaceful, and it's a peaceful network that anybody anywhere can opt into just the gradual accumulation of people within the network will deliver the change inevitably anyway.
But a much more gradual change is is a less painful transition to go through than a chain.
Yeah, you know, it's it's so interesting. One of the parts of the video that really argues that this wasn't a part per se, but it was the it was just as the video was playing out and I'm looking at the side with Satoshi, right?
I'm looking at the basically the Bitcoin standard side. And I couldn't help but think, man, imagine, imagine the world that that could have been maybe if we had even just kept the gold standard.
I mean, it was had its flaws. Yes. But certainly better than what we have now, right?
But imagine what that world could look like. How much of those and I loved how succinctly you were able to break down Jeff Booth's thesis from the price of tomorrow that because that's that's not an, you know, an easy task to make that kind of information really click for people.
Jeff, obviously does an incredibly good job with it. And she's one of the people I just absolutely have the utmost respect for that book. I didn't find toes on my Bitcoin journey.
But that that opened up like that flipped on a whole new light switch for me where I was. Wait a minute.
Technology is deflationary. Everything should be getting more expensive. I don't that's such a simple statement or should be getting less expensive.
But that's such a simple statement. But for some reason, I mean, there's a reason people love his book because most people didn't think of it that way before.
They didn't think that the natural state of a free market is deflation because we're still looking at everything from our existing system from within this fiat, you know, our fiat side of the island.
But looking at that, you know, that Bitcoin side and seeing, you know, kind of what what could have been what can still be, it made me it was a mix of kind of a melancholy of imagine how much further we could have gone by this time.
You know, but at the same time, it was a mix of hope as well because well, if the gold standard wouldn't have ended, if we would have had more responsible monetary policy, all these, you know, these last 50 years or so.
I mean, and we can go back even before that, but let's talk about the the true modern fiat was really after 71. Right. But if we could have done that, maybe Bitcoin wouldn't exist, or maybe it wouldn't exist yet.
You know, maybe it would have taken another who knows how many years for somebody to come around. But the fact that Satoshi did what he did at that moment in time, when they had just pressed the big red button again in the, you know, the great financial crisis.
And I just thought that was that was power. I don't even have a question there. I'm just like kind of talking to my own, my own conflicted experience there where it was like, well, I wish we could have had sound money for longer.
But if we hadn't had a break from sound money, Bitcoin may not exist right now in my lifetime. So there, I don't know. Is that something you were actively thinking about as you were going through this too? Is that do you know what I'm kind of getting at that weird mix of emotions?
It is and it's an attractive place. When you when you think about the world that Jeff Booth describes, say it's a world of abundance for humanity. And I don't mean abundance necessarily in terms of, you know, we have all the consumer goods we want.
So do whatever you want. It's that's not the abundance we're talking about, because just by the definition of, you know, efficient capital allocation, you wouldn't have those things you would have, you know, you'd have productive investment and, you know, a much better balance than we have today.
And, you know, on the consumer side of things, because that comes as a function of the fact that our money is decaying. And I have thought at times, you know, about the sequencing of things, but invention, you know, what is the phrase that need is the mother of invention?
Needs or necessity is the mother of invention. And, you know, the fact that Satoshi, you know, it was third of Jan 2009, almost, almost at the very low, like the very worst point of the financial crisis, when the big red button was just constantly pressed, constantly pressed and really took us into a whole new realm of money.
And, you know, the realm of money printing on steroids the last, you know, the last 15 years. Just the timing of that of that creation is just, it's just perfect, really.
And it turns out like a story or, you know, if you were going to decide to launch something at some point in time that you couldn't pick at the moment to do that. But I think what is, what's perhaps interesting about the story is that, you know, I've had very, very little pushback from anywhere on this.
And the only real areas are, I would say, sort of MMT type.
Of course.
But, you know, to put this in context, so on YouTube right now, and YouTube is not X is the main place for this YouTube right now we have, it's just gone through 70,000 views. And it's got about 4000 likes and 99% of the likes are positive.
Like the dislike button doesn't even show. It doesn't even highlight because there's like less than 50 dislikes. And it's like, okay, well, if we can put together a video that outlines the logic behind arriving at, yeah, I need bitcoins and 99% of the population.
And I realize that, you know, if people are going to shake their heads, well, it's not a fair sample, it's not an independent sample. But, you know, we're seeing more and more people who have not found Bitcoin before seeing this.
And they're still reacting in the same way it gives me confidence that, you know, it's a structured argument. And the other crowd is the gold crowd.
And their issue is not with the logic. Their issue is, well, there's more than one solution here.
You know, and so, but even then, as you say, I would much rather be on a gold standard right now than what we have. So it's great guys, we all agree on the author problem is, you know, it's just, if you prefer a slightly different solution, you know, I think ultimately, you'll arrive when you've, you know,
at the same solution that we think is correct. But you know, you'll take your time and, you know, and so, see, yeah.
I mean, the reception has been great. And I'm going to link everything in the show notes as well. And even if folks have already watched it on X, go and, you know, give it a like on YouTube and subscribe to the channel and everything.
Because that kind of stuff is helpful. And like, this is something I with this show even, I really like I don't particularly like YouTube, just because you are forced to be a little bit of a slave to that algorithm.
Any centralized platform. Yes, this is true. But I feel that YouTube especially like got to have the thumbnail right got to have the, you know, a baby, a baby title to it and the things like that.
If you want to get it into the, you know, the recommendation algorithm, which I just I hate doing that. But it's also one of those things where you're like, well, this is what YouTube is still one of the best ways to reach a broader audience of people who many of which are not going to be
Bitcoiners. They may be just coming across this because they looked at a, you know, some dividend investing video, you know, just before and maybe the algorithm throws it up to them next as they're up next or they're on the, you know, the watch page and something and it pops up for them.
That's actually such a powerful thing. And those are the people that need to see this message so much because again, Bitcoiners, you know, they, we understand like we're watching the same. Yep, like, agree with this.
I kind of know what you're going to say, but wow, it's put together really nice. I love this, you know, but for somebody new, if you're seeing this for the first time, this is something that could completely change your outlook on your life, I think.
I mean, that's, I think that's what Bitcoin has done for so many of us, right. And it's forced us to understand the problem. And I think for a lot of Bitcoiners, it's we, we didn't, you know, we, we went through it in a strange kind of ragged number of steps, maybe where
you, you know, start understanding Bitcoin, then you start looking deeper into the problem. And then you start understanding the problem more and you start looking deeper into Bitcoin and kind of this back and forth.
What I think you've done that's really powerful is you, you've kind of, you've simplified that process for people. So it's here, just here's the problem. Let's agree on it. Now, don't worry, don't have to be depressed the rest of your life.
There is a solution. Here you go. You've made it quite convenient, honestly.
And then you can spend the next period of time putting meat on all the bones that you already have as a mental framework. Because I think one of the challenges that we find is, and I found it, and I would, it has to guess that other people have as well is like, just creating a clear picture in your mind around how all these things fit together,
creating that flow diagram effectively mentally is what is what we do by consuming all the resources and they listen to all the, the, the talks and things. And so really what I've done is just try and download that and put it on it.
Download what's in my head and I know it's in your head and I said, in all of our heads, so they just, we can get out there and just simplify it and save someone else the journey to construct it.
And just give them the map to start with. And then once they've got the math, they can follow it just a lot faster than having to discover which parts of the map they need.
And like I was saying before, it's that over time we just build more and more layers around the white paper to make it more and more accessible to people and shorten the gap that they have to make over which they have to make that mentally.
You know, I'm curious, Joe, because you know, we were talking about just how nice that idea of the Satoshi side of the island seems, you know, like that seems like a place where, where I'd like to live.
Hopefully it's a place where we do live someday on a large scale, but I'm curious kind of your vision for the future kind of what, what you see as we're obviously in a transitional period right now, right.
When things may get worse, likely will get worse before they get better. What's kind of your thought process on, on how we hopefully eventually get to, you know, to be living on that Satoshi side of the island.
What do you think that looks like? What's that journey?
And I know that's a big question, but, you know, big, big, big question asking also to predict the future.
Personally, like, I guess, how do you see it kind of, how do you see it evolving this, you know, there's no right or wrong answers to this. I think everyone has their own take.
But where do you see us going from here? Does it get a lot worse before it gets better? Or is there a different path?
I think you're going to see a lot of localised differences. Because in my, in my mind, but it just, Bitcoin is inevitable.
It is just a question of how long it takes in the various parts of the world, because the, the mechanics and the incentives and the security of it are set up in such a way that it is going to win.
It is like, we all know this, you know, we doubt it, you know, because we're still in the minority and you know, what if the government changes the rules or something like this, you know, but it can, they can, they can make changes.
They can't actually impact you holding it. They can't actually impact you sending it so on. The only thing is that they can make you take steps to be non-compliant to use it.
Non-compliant with the arbitrary rules they put in place at any point in time, which is something for everyone to make their own choice over.
But game theory will win in the end. And in the same way that we have arrived at the rationale that we need to own this thing, the complete exclusion of everything else is there is no second best.
That is a logical consequence of putting the working. And if you know everybody, once they put the working end of that conclusion, and then no one goes back, ultimately everyone's at that conclusion, which case it came over.
And so we already, we already know that's going to be the outcome here. And it's just a question of time and the path to which it takes. But there are, I think you can rely on human motivation and selfishness.
Which is what I, is one of the aspects I love most about Bitcoin is that everyone, it's fully designed to everyone to always operate in their own self-interest and for the benefit of everybody else.
I mean, it's just, it's just the great, it's just the greatest system. I mean, how can you fight that? How can you fight that in expectable way? You just can't.
And so, you know, as this game theory plays out and each individual goes through that thought process, companies will become infected with that mindset, with that thought process, governments will become infected with the thought process, that mindset.
And the more that do, the more pressure it puts on everybody else to not be left behind. And it will be a gradual cleanup of the system, one piece of adoption at a time.
And it will, you know, you'll get lockstep changes, maybe in some areas, you know, where, you know, country announces we are going to make a major change, but it will likely come through accumulated pressure for some reason or another.
But then once somebody pulls the trigger, then it becomes like a national security issue for other countries. You know, if I'm wearing hopefully, hopefully, you know, we see Bitcoin put front and center in the US, and I don't just mean from us, you know,
national strategic reserve, I mean, creating an environment that is supportive of the adoption of Bitcoin, being, you know, a whole range of issues.
That puts that issue squarely on the table for every other government around the world to take a look at, a serious look at, because it's not just some plaything anymore, they can't dismiss it as some money for criminals or something which is trying to evade sanctions
or, you know, whatever the current label they've decided to attach for that month is, it becomes a national security issue. You know, it becomes an issue that should be discussed in the halls of power in every country,
because you're going to get left behind. And this is a one time, this is a, oh, you only play this game once. And so, yeah, I'm very optimistic for the future, and it's not going to be without strife,
but Bitcoin has a wonderful ability to just make everything brighter. Like, you know, I feel like my life is much richer, now much more positive outcome, you know, my decision making is better.
And, you know, it helps, it helps you prioritize the things that are important in life. And I suspect, you know, most of us have gone through the same sort of personal journey alongside learning about Bitcoin and the foundation of hard money.
So we know that's also going to happen to other people. And maybe it does help improve decision making within government and the like, because how can you become a Bitcoin maxi and still think we should have big government interfering in everything?
That seems like an unlikely outcome. So if everyone's going to become a Bitcoin maxi, you've got to be betting that government interference is going to is going to reach a better place. And at least I least I hope to that.
I hope that's the case.
I sincerely hope so as well. I hope that and I believe that Bitcoin will act as I mean, because again, it's a change in incentives, right? It's a it's a change in priorities. And the more and more people that opt into this individuals freely opting in but also companies,
corporations, countries even that forces a change on those who have not yet adopted it as well. Like that. And I think it's one of those things where I don't think that our current bloated bureau crowd.
Our bloated bureaucratic kleptocratic, gerontocratic state was ever going to fix itself from the inside. I don't I don't think that that was ever going to be possible. It's too far gone for that.
But the only way that things ever get better in from where we are right now is by an outside function forcing change on this system. You know, from from an external point of view from this parallel system, you know, from the other side of the island to use
your your metaphor from the, you know, Satoshi side of the island, forcing a change because enough people operating within the current system, the broken system say, I can't I don't want this anymore. This is terrible. Like this isn't working for me.
This is maybe working for a couple of people who are closest to the, you know, have the closest proximity to the money printer, but it's not working for me and my family nor for basically anyone I know.
So I'm going to go over and opt into this other side where things seem to be working a lot better for people and they seem to have a better outlook on the future and they seem to have, you know, they apparently they've got more purchasing power than I do.
What the hell is going on over there? I would like to learn.
And so I'm, I'm curious because I, right now I feel that there's such an emphasis, understandably so, on corporate Bitcoin adoption on nation state Bitcoin adoption.
Of course, this, this makes sense. First of all, these are the things that get the most clicks, the biggest headlines, the most views on YouTube, for example.
But the video that you created, and this is one of the other reasons I liked it, it was focused on the individual, like ultimately it was a message for the individual.
And I just love to know, you know, what, what's a what is your message to the individual right now to the person out there who is maybe feeling that, wow, things aren't things.
Something's rotten here. Something's broken. Maybe they've heard of Bitcoin, but maybe they're thinking, you know what, I like either I'm too late, we're at a, you know, hundred and some thousand dollars, however many pounds it is.
And, and what this isn't something that's going to help me. This is just for, you know, for the rich people now or for the companies or for the countries now.
What's what's your message to that individual?
We are so, so early. We are so incredibly early. I mean, you can test this for yourself, just walk along the street and pick 10 people at random and say, why do we need Bitcoin?
I'd be amazed if anyone could tell you.
I just, it's very clear we're just so early. I mean, the US, there's a handful of countries which are actively looking at these things.
Most of the world is totally asleep on it. Totally asleep. I mean, the, we know, if we step through those things, like, if we know everybody who puts the work in, never goes back.
And once you've put the work in, you never go back. You then never want to hold anything else.
The natural consequence of that is over a passage of time, everybody ends up in that, in that position.
And if everybody ends up in that position, you never want to hold anything else. Bitcoin consumes the entire world.
And so $100,000 is nothing. It's nothing in the grand scheme of things. And it's also being measured in a frame of reference that is attached to the big red buttons.
So there, so you measure it, you measure it in dollars, the more people are opt in to Bitcoin and opt out of the feartellers, the more feartellers he has to print.
And so, you know, Bitcoin's going up forever. Bitcoin's going up forever. It's going to eat the entire world.
And I think that we are, you are late or you've missed the boat, something. It's just human psychology to look at a number and think, well, it's a lot bigger than the number it was four years ago or eight years ago, 12 years ago.
No, I do the work, watch the video, then go and watch those other videos, then read the books, then listen to lots of podcasts, really understand why, why.
And you'll know this as well. It's like, conviction is not something you switch on. Conviction is something that builds over time.
And there's no way of building that conviction without doing the work. Because it's great when the price is going up, the price will go down as well, it'll go down a lot.
And you need to have the conviction that when that price does go down, you know why you're opting in. And you're happy that the price is going down because you could buy more of it.
You could buy more of it for the feartellers. That's it. Because you know where it's going.
And so, you know, the sooner you can reach that point, the better, the best way of getting started is to learn.
Just learn, consume information, learn, talk to people, try to explain it to people and you'll get it wrong.
And just talk about it, you'll get it wrong and they'll pick holes and then you go back and you're okay, well, I need to understand that bit better.
Join your local meetup groups. There's meetup groups all over. I cannot explain to you the number of emails I've had through the website over the last seven days.
Hundreds and hundreds of emails from bit coiners all over the world.
You know, I'm a bit coiner in such and such a city in South America. I don't know any other bit coiners.
I have seen this, I love it, I would like to get involved and you know, I'm getting these from all over.
There are so many, there's so many that sleep ourselves everywhere.
You know, these people who are little islands dotted around the world who are just not part of active communities.
So yeah, join your local meetup. Start a local meetup.
You know, even if it's just you and you know, sends an email or try and find somebody else to join you in the pub, you know, you can talk about Bitcoin and then maybe the two of you can find a third person or something like that.
It's again, it just gives you an indication how early we are, how early we are with this stuff. I've no doubt we're going to win.
Amen to all of that.
First of all, I think that it is such a good point about conviction that like, I think, you know, if you're from the outside looking in and you see somebody, you know, like somebody I think of a lot with just massive conviction and you know, giant balls of steel as American hodl or American hodl as he identifies.
But you know, how did he build that conviction? It's by continuing to do the work for years by living through those incredibly difficult times when he saw his net worth fluctuate massively by dealing with all of the friends and the family and the people on the internet telling him, you know, that you're wrong.
Like, that's either going to going to break you because your conviction perhaps at the beginning was was very weak and you didn't do enough work to understand what you were holding, or it's going to make you as so uber convicted that you are in this till the end, right?
And like, win or lose, I think we both assume win. I know hodl does as well. But like, that's, it's such an important thing. And to your other point about, you know, just talking with people about this, some of the best ways that I've found of making myself better at explaining both what the problem is and what the solution is,
but I mean, Bitcoin has been through just conversations with like old friends of mine, or family members, you know, people who are not deep down the rabbit hole yet, but our people I respect highly intelligent people who are good at poking holes in things and me realizing, huh, you
You know what, actually, fair critique.
I feel like I should be able to respond to this better,
but I didn't, you know, my response
didn't feel that convincing even to me.
So, okay, I need to go deeper into this.
I need to do more work.
I need to understand what are all of the different problems,
pain points, whatever that people are gonna throw at me.
And I think that ultimately, like that helps,
it has helped me so much on my own journey through this,
was just those conversations.
It's very easy to just get caught in a, you know,
an online bubble where you're just talking about NGU
all the time, but it's like, you know,
one thing I've tried to do,
and I know there's varying opinions on this,
but you wanna, of course, try and help your friends,
your family, those that you love the most,
that are closest to you in the real world,
you wanna help them to understand why,
it's not because them buying is going to some,
make any material difference to you, it's not, you know,
unless, you know, your friends or family is like a Michael
sailor, maybe that makes a material difference,
but for most of us, you know, they're average people,
but it makes a difference because you care about them,
you want them to be protected from the theft that you know
is inherent in our current system.
I mean, it comes from a place of love, ultimately, right?
A lot of us also sometimes, you know,
get disillusioned with some of that, you know,
but, and then you have to realize that, okay,
not everybody is ready to hear about the solution yet.
And oftentimes I found that that was because
I didn't do a good enough job of telling them,
what's the problem, or what's the problem for them?
Because not everybody feels the pain of inflation the same,
you know?
That's the key, making it relevant to their own lives,
like that finding that pain point,
and helping them understand where that came from.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's making things personal for people is,
I think one of the biggest things that you can do
to actually help somebody understand
that there is a problem.
And this is what I found with my own friends,
many of whom are in traditional finance,
work for big banks or financial institutions,
do quite well.
Me talking about asset inflation
isn't gonna be a good road for them
because they love asset inflation.
I'm not gonna get them that.
Me talking about that this is gonna overthrow
obsolete banks isn't very appealing to them,
they all work for banks.
So like you have to find a different angle there.
And I think that's a challenge.
But again, just back to your video,
what I like about it is that I think that the way
that you laid things out,
I think that it's very hard for people
from any set of diverse backgrounds to refute
your problem statement.
And that takes some skill.
Like for the way you crafted that,
I'm sure some people will or the MMTers will
because they'll say, well, this problem,
actually we need, maybe we need two big red buttons
and we should be pressing that big red button even more.
I'm kind of curious, can you share some of the critiques
that you got from, or I'll say critiques and quotes,
from MMT folks?
I mean, because they're an interesting lot, I'll say.
Honestly, it's only been a couple of comments,
it's been like, well, you've obviously never heard of MMT.
I literally like that's been the comment in YouTube.
But that's it.
That's it.
So I couldn't even go to explain the structure
of their argument against this,
other than just throw the cops.
They probably couldn't either, to be honest.
They're just like, well, no, public sector deficit
is private sector surplus,
or something else, Stephanie Colton said,
that I thought sounded smart when I read it.
But what I...
That's a mind-blowing position to me.
Yeah, but I know and to many of us,
but I also hope just by going through the story
and it being logical,
that they can similarly go through the logic
and agree with it.
And if they go through the logic and agree with it,
then maybe they question some of those other assumptions.
So I think, you know,
I want to frame the video in, you know,
a wrapper of positivity for everybody.
This is not about, you know,
anyone's views, political views,
or where you are in the world.
This is everybody.
Like everybody is subject to this.
Like we can all be on the same team
about the big red button.
You know, very easily.
And they're all on the same team,
rather than where we can do something about it.
You know?
And...
Yeah, I think that's it.
We'll see, we'll see.
But I would encourage, if people haven't watched it,
I would love them to watch it.
Sorry, hit my microphone there.
I would love them to watch it.
Don't worry about it.
I would love them to watch it.
And remember that they're not necessarily the audience.
Yeah.
I made it for people who were not Bitcoiners.
I made it for everybody.
And so I really want Bitcoiners to have,
to be able to put this in their pocket
and be able to send it to the people they care about.
Right, and just watch that.
It's the most gentle orange pill.
And then they'll come back, hopefully, and say,
okay, well, that was interesting.
You tell me a bit more about such and such.
And then you've got the conversation started.
And then you could send them a truckload of material
or whatever it is they ask for.
But yeah, just meeting people where they are,
the problems they have,
and helping them work through the logic
to come to where you are a bit faster,
even with a skeletal overview, skeletal framework.
That's a great place for us to be as Bitcoiners
if we can just very quickly orange pill people.
So we start having a conversation on sensible terms.
And let me know how it goes as well.
I've, I would say the best thing is on X
when somebody messages me or posts and said,
like, I've shared it with like 40 people.
This is fantastic.
And you know, or one guy messaged and said,
I've just had the best conversation I've ever had
with my daughter, my teenage daughter,
because now she understands why I'm so passionate about this.
And we've ended up having conversation about it
and she understands, it's like, this is brilliant.
This is brilliant.
Like your, yeah, one guy posted and said,
do you want your girlfriend to say,
WTF happened in 1971?
And your mum to say, fix the money, fix the world.
Then you need to watch this video.
That's amazing.
That just happened to me.
And so it's brilliant.
It's brilliant.
And so, you know, hopefully it can,
you know, I've seen lots of, you know, blogs and websites
and, you know, Node Run has put it in their website as well.
And so I hope the video just gets embedded in lots of places
and people are free to, you know, be creative with,
you know, more and more memes and stuff like that coming out.
And yes, it's wonderful.
Let's, let's, let's get the big red button and fear teller
into existence, it's something very clear that people,
very clear story and things that people can get on.
It's just, it's just so strange walking.
I mean, seeing something I made with memes,
like coming out of it, it's just, yeah, wonderful.
I haven't stopped smiling.
Yeah, I mean, it's amazing to see.
And I think that the reception is well deserved.
And it, I mean, it's an honest reception.
It's people are identifying with this video.
They're finding this video useful.
They're finding it as a missing piece of their own,
let's say, educational arsenal that they can share confidently
that is going to be appealing to people across the spectrum.
And I think that that's really powerful.
And I'll link, I'll link your YouTube
and I'll link the video as well.
I encourage people to check that out.
You did confirm that you are on Noster as well.
Do you want to maybe just,
where do you want to send people just, you know,
I'll put it up, everything you say here,
I'll make sure to put in the show notes,
but if you just want to rattle off
where people should find you.
Yeah, so on X and Noster, I have the same handle.
So my handle is at Satmo Joe and that's J-O-E.
And it's at Sat versus Piat.
So S-A-T-S-V-S-F-I-A-T.
And that's on X and Noster.
And that's also the website.
Sat versus Piat.com where you can send people,
you can watch the video, they can get resources,
you don't have to sign up or anything like that.
You can subscribe if you want,
but it's entirely optional if we ever send, you know,
additional material in the future.
And yeah, just let us know how you get on.
And especially if you speak different languages
and would love to translate this,
you know, every, pretty much every day,
putting two or three more languages live
from Bitcoiner contributions
and you can access them via the settings wheel
at the bottom of the YouTube video.
And then native subtitles, so they should make sense.
And again, it's iterative.
So if you see something that should be done better
or improved, then just drop a note by the website
and then we'll just get it changed
and improve everybody else.
So I would say, Walker, as well, I intend,
I intend, I'm trying to get back above water
but they'll like replying to everybody
and I'm not far away from doing that.
So if anybody sent me a message, I haven't replied yet.
It will be soon, please bear with me.
But we're going to make all of the material open
to everybody.
And so we'll, the plan is to extend the website,
put the presentation there, the speaker notes,
the transcripts, and then hopefully do that
for a bunch of languages.
And so the community is welcome to take it
and then go and give presentations to meetups
or schools or whoever, wherever, whenever,
and try and bring as many people as long as possible.
And then I hope there's more and more community involvement.
And so this becomes a thing and I'm just a part
of the community as opposed to the one staying up
or not replying to the emails
and trying to push it forward.
Yeah.
Love that you're making all the material available too.
Cause I think this is a great thing for people
to be able to, you know, hey, you want to sit your family
down and give them the presentation
instead of sending them the video, you know,
by all means go for it.
But I think that's great.
Just to confirm to the YouTube is Sats vs Fiat
or it's Satsmojo.
It's Sats vs Fiat.
Yeah.
Awesome.
I'll link that as well.
It's all of the Sats vs Fiat.
Satsmojo is my personal thing and, you know, yeah,
they are separate.
I'll see.
Well, Joe, this has been really a pleasure chatting with you.
I want to thank you again for making this video.
I think it's, it is the best Bitcoin video
I have seen in a very long time.
And I think that it is so accessible for people.
If you haven't watched it yet,
I highly encourage you to do so,
share it with your friends and family or strangers
on the internet either way, just get it out there.
Anybody, anybody.
Yeah, exactly.
It's a, it's a, and it's a video, I think,
that came at a really great time
because there's a lot of people as this Overton window
has shifted that are going to be asking a lot more questions
and looking for more answers.
And I think this video does a really great job.
So I just want to thank you for the work that you put into it.
You did something really special here.
Well, thank you.
I'm blown away by the reception.
Thank you to everyone spending 39 minutes
watching this, giving it a chance
and walking with us that have me on this podcast.
It's a real pleasure.
I've loved the last hour and a half talking to you.
So thank you very much.
Likewise, and hopefully we can,
we can do this in person sometime.
That'd be a blast.
Hope to, hope to see you around.
And until then keep up, keep up the great work
and hopefully you can get out from under the mountain
of replies that I'm sure you're working your way through.
Yeah, well, me too, me too.
All right, thanks a lot.
Thanks so much.
Cheers.
See ya.
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast.
If you're listening or better yet share this show
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And you'll also find the links to follow me and the show
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