So they have the one that are like, well, didn't it crash?
Isn't it going to zero?
And it's like, yeah, there's like significant drawdowns.
Like it's fucking painful and it makes you really need to stop and reassess what's going on.
And for me, it's really valuable because I have to like look at Bitcoin and be like, wow.
My mom was a single mom who like had a really hard time getting by.
We like grew up poor.
But like she still managed to like buy a house and like keep it.
Today, like there's no fucking way that's even remotely on the table.
You believe these people when they come to you and tell you that they're trying to implement age verification to protect the kids.
Meanwhile, they're actually taking advantage of them in the background.
Like, this representative democracy thing to me is bullshit.
Like, I don't understand why I'm supposed to collectivize myself with a bunch of fucking idiots that can't think for themselves.
My dream with the Orange Party is, like, eventually sweep the elections and full sweep of the feds of put them all on trial for treason.
Whoever's found guilty, hang them publicly.
We need to fight back at some point in time.
There's a technological solution we have to this that nobody's thought of yet.
here uh i feel like that with setting up live streams on no store it's like is it gonna work
this time like did i fuck something up and it works most of the time okay i just posted it let's
make sure it blasted out it'll be nice when like there's you have like a competent like ai podcasting
assistant that like you you can count on and you know like isn't gonna completely shit the bed
dude it it really will be and i mean honestly i'm of the opinion also
that like as far as i mean everybody's obviously talking about all the jobs that will be although
like white collar jobs or technical kind of developer jobs are just like you know computer
jobs quote it will be replaced by ai and i honestly think i say this like ironically and
somewhat baiting like in a baiting way but also unironically i think that podcasting like in the
future everyone will be a podcaster it's like it's no longer learn to code it's like learn to
podcast. People will crave that genuine human connection with somebody when they know that the
whole world is just mostly slop. It's like, what do people want when everything turns to slop? It's
like, you want something real. You want something that's actually somewhat feels like a human
connection. I feel like that's what like a huge part of the rise of streaming culture was,
especially during COVID was just a response to, I can't get human connection in the physical world
right now. So I need to find it in the digital world. And like, I don't know. I mean, granted,
like there's probably a point of saturation with podcasts but then maybe not maybe in the future
everybody's just their own you know niche niche uh niche creator like i think there's a place for
that there's an irony of that like in uh the most extreme tensions like of these dynamics that like
there's a very high galleon effect of that like the thesis and the anti-thesis come to represent
this new thing so like despite the fact that like we're a world apart right now that like the like
you go into streaming for like the most human kind of connection and it's actually interesting
because like that that dovetails a lot of i mean really a lot of the affects that are sort of going
on technologically is that like we've we've entered into like such an extreme place of
development with the technology that like it's only through its return and the representation
of like the anti-thesis of it that like we're creating this new thing right now and i think
this is part of the whole exploration is that like people are trying to find what it means to
be human in the digital age so that like we're no longer we're no longer just pieces of data but we
actually get to be human and like what is what does that mean in the internet because like that
that was never it was never built with that intentionality you know like it was always just
supposed to be subsets of data so now that we're trying to return to like what does it mean to be
human in the digital age i think streaming is just one part of it and it's sort of like personal
branding if you will but that also represents its own anti-humanism in a very particular way
I just love that you managed to slip in Heigelian in the first like two minutes of this.
That is skill right there.
Knowing how Heigel has made the world work is an important thing for everybody.
It is.
And Eric, I'm stoked to have you back, man.
I realized it's been a little while, I think, since I had you and Hodl on.
We have no Hodl this time.
Maybe he'll pop in partway through.
who can say he's a man of mystery probably out at the shooting range but like i was just thinking
about as i was just setting up the studio here for this today i was like wow the last time we
talked was in the uh the world before we had explicit confirmation of something we all already
well many of us already knew which is that basically like our country and not just our
country like our world is run by this like pseudo cult of satanic pedophiles and we all pay taxes
to these satanic pedophiles.
But now we have like actual pretty hard and fast confirmation of that,
even though most of it's redacted.
I don't know.
Do you think that that actually ends up mattering?
Do you think that that breaks enough people to a certain point
where they realize like, oh, all of this is just bullshit?
Or do you think where everyone is so sucked into just like getting through
the fucking day and just putting food on the table
and trying to deal with the pressures of life
that actually just doesn't end up moving the needle that much?
definitely the latter i mean i mean like the the fact that all this information is coming out is
part of a limited hangout and like the the fact that we are ran by uh you know like like most
normies even if you put it in front of them of like hey like the epstein stuff it turns out it's
true blah blah blah they'd be like oh god that's so horrible like back to my tv um i mean it's
pretty sad because like i think this is one of the places i want to that like i push in a particular
their way because like i think we need more radicalism is that like it it's there isn't
like look what covet was it it there there there isn't some event that's going to come about where
people suddenly radicalize themselves and they're like that like that's the line enough no don't
like like the police show up their house and give them a gun they're like you need to kill your
neighbor they'll be like oh okay well i mean if if the police said so uh and i you know like it to
me it's one of the dark and horrific truths of that like we we live in a day and age where most
people in my opinion are sort of uh you know and like any of us could fall into this but like
they're still plugged in the matrix in a way and very similar to what what morpheus said is that
like you know like the these people are dangerous to us like they're not they're not going to
spontaneously awake and become our allies like like they're very dangerous because they're plugged
into a matrix where they'll tell you stuff that like like if you say jeffrey epstein didn't kill
himself they'll be like whoa that sounds like crazy conspiracy theory stuff that's what the
report said what do you mean yeah and like it's i struggle a lot with it because like on on one
side like i have very deep empathy like i uh like i understand why we want to believe the media and
why we want to believe that the government loves us and wants to do good and like you know why why
we should just let everybody come to america and we should all be able to hold hands and hug and
that like it should be like a happy great experience that's not reality and like and i'm
really sorry like i really wish it was different i very sincerely do but like we have to look at
the facts of the matter and also it's like it's pretty clear that like uh like the sexual pedophilia
cult thing like that was kind of like a side project for jeffrey epstein like that was that
that was probably his hobby like his main thing was probably being a major financial
trading hub in terms of like washing money but also like he was involved in arms dealings and
other things and that like so like the like that was just kind of like a side quest and so when you
really start looking at the the makeup of what's going on it's like not only is the thing that we
call democratic and representative like completely corrupt but that like it it's probably in service
to like a much larger and more wicked and impossible to sort of fight structure.
And it sucks and it blows.
And I wish we could vote our way out of it.
We can't.
Bitcoin is a great start.
It's tangentially allied with like a bunch of fucked up shit that like, I don't know,
we got pretty off track in the last five years.
But yeah, I don't know.
I used to feel a lot more anger about it.
And I think I just I felt that for too long and affected my own life too much.
So in a lot of ways, I'm more accepting about it.
And also, like, I think at some point we have to just kind of worry about ourselves more than kind of the greater country in a whole and hope that they get it.
But I don't know. It sucks. I wish I wish people would wake up.
Can I ask you to elaborate on the part about the last five years and just getting off track?
What do you mean by that specifically?
uh i think specifically like the tangent like at first i thought what david bailey did with trump
was okay like there was a particular number of wins that happened with it same thing as like
getting integrated with the nation state but like now i'm realizing like it was it was like a pretty
dangerous flaw um the obfuscation between bitcoin and crypto same thing and i think like we've done
a pretty good job about talking shit about these people uh but like i think we should have developed
more of an eminity with them uh and been like very clear like fuck these people they are fucking
scammers they've hooked their wagon up to ours i think there was a number of us that did like
you know like i'd give us a good b with it but like um yeah it's just it's very difficult for
me now when i tell people like you know i'm a bitcoiner this is what i do and they're like oh
like crypto and i want to be like i'll rip your fucking eyes out and show them up your ass to
make you see how wrong you are if you ever say that again they're like whoa like fucking chill
um dude it is it is crazy though just on sorry to interrupt but on that point like it is kind of
crazy for all of the drum beating that bitcoiners have done about look this like this isn't crypto
it's like it it hasn't moved the needle that much in terms of public perception or public confusion
like it's maybe moved it a little bit but man it and maybe that just goes back to the fact that
most people because they are still plugged into the matrix they cannot be bothered to go even one
layer deeper to say, huh, well, let me check my assumptions on this. I'm calling all of this
crypto like, oh, FTX, Sandbankman-Fried, that's like, that's Bitcoin and Bitcoin is crypto. And
like, because that's like the jump most people make. I don't know how many, it can't even count
how many times, like if I brought up Bitcoin, somebody would say like, oh, like the FT,
the Sandbankman-Fried thing or whatever. And you'd be like, oh, fuck, like you got to be kidding me.
But it's like, again, like maybe just most people won't ever be woken up from that or can't be
bothered i don't know like i i wish i could say it's different but like plato's cave is literally
about this and that's like a story from you know fucking more than 2 000 years ago and like it it
i don't know like for me it's really difficult because on some level
i i feel very torn because like on one level i want to empathize and understand that like a lot
of people don't have the time effort energy capacity whatever to be able to like look deeper
into this stuff and they're plugged in and that's not their fault but on the other hand at some
point like i start feeling really upset and contemptful and i have to be like you you need
to empower yourself at some point in time to like figure out how and why the world works but
i found a lot of people don't do that and like for me it's a real struggle because i'll be like
like here's this bitcoin thing it could help you and they're like
i meh and i'm like no like sincerely you should like look into it deeper it's like really important
like uh oh and it's i don't know it pains me deep deeply because it's like okay well
i led you to water you don't want to drink it like if you want to continue living your fiat
lifestyle doing what you're doing okay uh and then also they have the one that
they're like well didn't it didn't crash isn't it going to zero and it's like
yeah there's like significant drawdowns like it's fucking painful and it makes
you really need to stop and reassess what's going on and for me it's really
valuable because I have to like look at Bitcoin and be like wow yeah drew down
50 percent like did I misvalue it does it not do the stuff I want it to do and I
have to like go through the whole existential thing and be like no I can
still pay whoever I want. Like I can still send it wherever I need to pay join still works. Like
you can still create privacy if needed. Like it's doing everything that I think it's going to do.
And then there's like a redoubling of like, oh yeah, okay. This is actually how the cycles work
in the process. I could try to call the top and sell, you know, like some people do really well
with trading. I don't, I suck at it. Uh, like I'll more likely lose a lot more money. Yeah. And so
it's a lot easier of a strategy just to hold.
And some people are really good at trading and great for them.
Like I like market dynamics and it's great that there's probably a lot of
people that were looking at Bitcoin at 125 and they're like,
that's too much that now it's at what 68 or something that they'll be like,
yeah, like maybe now is a good time for me to get in.
So to me, it's all the dynamics of how Bitcoin works.
It's all of the fundamentals that make it operable are still there.
it's just whether or not the rest of the world will catch up to it
circling back on the uh satanic pedophiles it is just like it seems that there's all of this
this tsunami of fud being thrown at bitcoin right now and all of it is just the most
mid-curve slop you can imagine like the whole epstein and you know hijacked bitcoin and all
the and it's like all these b cashers and uh and xr we gotta throw adam back under the bus now and
we got to talk about all these people oh my god it's it's just it's so tiresome like yeah
yeah it turns out that like uh epstein was deeply involved in a lot of academic projects that's
like a lot of people don't seem to understand that like this is an explicit part of laundering
it's not like everything he touched he automatically made evil it's that like he touched a lot of
legitimate stuff intentionally in order to be able to launder the rest of the shit and like that's
this is literally how laundering works.
That's why you have like a legitimate business to pair with your illegitimate
business.
It's like mix them up together,
but trying to like address,
you know,
and like,
again,
this is sort of comes back to the same thing with Bitcoin.
And why like,
I'm just kind of realizing like,
it's just kind of stupidity on a whole is like more of the problem.
And like a lot of people don't want to use logic as like a rigorous format
that like is the way that they understand the truth as opposed to their own
biases.
And like I'm as susceptible to it as anybody else.
And I have to like stop and really ask myself to work through stuff from first principles.
But like it's I don't know.
It's yeah, for me, the most disturbing thing coming about right now is realizing how many people.
Not not only do they not necessarily understand what's going on, but that like they'll have very significant opinions that aren't well supported.
And it's just fucking sucks.
It's a bummer to try to deal with them and their opinionated nature.
Meanwhile, people who like know 10 times more than them and like should have 100 times more assurance usually are a thousand times more modest, which means that like they're not going to have the same loudness that other individuals will.
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What's that old paradox of the more you know about something, the more you understand how much you still do not know?
Yeah.
And that requires a certain level of humility that honestly just like most, I mean, this is like the opposite end of that spectrum is the Dunning-Kruger effect, right?
where it's like you know just a little bit about something and so you think you are the end-all be-all
expert on this thing and you've been you've done a lot of rote memorization and you're really good
at rattling off certain things and certain talking points so you think like oh I've got this figured
out and none of your arguments are actually organic or like the of that you came up with
yourself they're all regurgitated slop that somebody else came up with that was regurgitated
from somebody else and that's just I mean maybe this this is just always the case like this is
just to something with human nature and the fact that we are kind of distributed along this bell curve.
But it's like, man, I think some of the most dangerous people in the world are just mid-curve.
This goes through all levels, you know what I mean?
Yeah, and the consequences is most people in the world are mid-curve,
and most people in the world are going to group together under that same affect,
which kind of explains everything that's going on.
And I don't know, like I, for quite a while, I felt stuck at a crossroads of like, do I try to actually push and make a bigger and more significant difference in the world?
Or like, do I just kind of fade out into the forest and live my own private life?
And it's difficult because like I, you know, we've talked about the orange party for a while.
And like, I'd love to see something like that come to fruition.
But like, do I want to try to do something like that?
It's like a lot of time and energy and effort and and more than anything like it's
It difficult to deal with normies and like a lot of people believe that only two political parties can exist at all and like trying to push up against that is really difficult but at the same time like we entering into a really interesting and new era with uh how significant
and powerful ai is and like it's becoming more and more obvious as each day passes that like
this is essentially alien technology at this point in time and like it's starting to
it's starting to get to a place where like it it very clearly can kind of challenge our intellect
and very novel in different ways.
Like, I'm not sure if you followed much,
but, like, I think the head of anthropic safety just left
and was pretty much like, yeah, I'm going to go into hiding in the UK.
And so, like, it's really interesting
because I feel like this is a real place
that we can radicalize and change things
in a very special and important direction
for humanity on a whole if we choose to.
But looking at what the masses are out there doing
in that, you know, like a lot of this,
a lot of this computational power
is being used to make cat videos,
which like no hate on cat videos,
but like the fact that that's kind of the preoccupation
is disturbing in some ways.
So like, I don't know.
It's, I think there is an opportunity
to make a huge impact right now.
And I also think that's one reason
why people like streaming
and talking to people online
is realizing that like there's,
there's a possibility for something
very radical and different.
But the question is,
is do we want to challenge ourselves
to try to bring that forth.
Do you think on the AI front,
like one of my worries just from some of the stuff
that I'm exposed to is like, boy, as you said,
most people are just using this to generate cat videos.
On the other side of this, you've got governments
and very large corporations who are realizing,
wow, this is a panopticon enabling totalitarian's wet dream
from a surveillance state perspective, just being able to analyze and like large, large
data sets in a way that we have not been able to with an efficiency that we have not been
able to before.
But it's also like it's, it's, it's, there's always a dualism to it, right?
Anything it's like with Bitcoin yet can be used by bad people and it can be used by good
people can be used by anyone.
It's a tool.
It's like a gun.
It's like a car, right?
Except in this case, it's like a, a massive data processing engine.
where are you at with this in terms of sort of like near-term potential versus long-term potential
with AI specifically in the sense that okay you know we've already established that most people
just are plugged in right so they're not going to use something as necessarily a tool for them
they're going to generate cat videos nothing wrong with that but that's like that's what they're
going to use it for meanwhile people who are paying attention and who may or may not have
nefarious ends will use these things to try and usher in a totalitarian global panopticon.
Like, do the tools that AI provides us offer us also an asymmetric defense against that?
Or is the asymmetry in a different direction? You know what I mean?
Yeah, no, the asymmetry is definitely biased towards the individual. And like, that's one
of the reasons that you can see that, like, open source models are very quickly closing the gap
between frontier capacities and open source models.
Same thing with novel new ways of creating tokenization schemes
in order to make them much more efficient and smaller.
So I believe that this is one of the most radical tools
that has ever been given to individuals
because now a lone individual with an open source model
can go and do research that just a year ago
would have, you know, taken large corporations
that would have been their cutting edge technology.
Right.
So like I think, and like short-term and long-term
are related to each other
because like these are highly efficient at, you know,
data analysis.
It can make the Panopticon all the better.
But with that being said, the same thing,
like tools and techniques to obfuscate that information
and data allows for you to throw out way more flack.
And like in the cat and mouse game,
I think this was one of the things that was asserted in Snow Crash was like the idea that like you can essentially pump out all this extra information that like without anything being verified, you can't really know anything.
And so I think like the amount of like slop that can get pumped out to kind of throw flack to make the information analysis more difficult is really powerful.
in addition to like,
and this is sort of our thesis at Vora,
is that like people are going to realize like your oil
and like you generate data
and like that is your,
like that's your crude oil
and like you being able to synthesize that on your own
to make plastics, refined gasoline,
like whatever,
like if you own that data,
you can do that
and you can do it way more efficiently
and substantially for yourself,
but like you need to own it.
And so like I think inevitably
it sort of concludes into that direction.
But then again, like most people are idiots
and they would rather use something that is very simple,
even if it's selling their soul,
they would rather do that.
So like, it's really interesting.
Like I'm going to be intrigued to see where it goes.
And ultimately like,
because I think these models have been open source
because I do think we have Bitcoin,
to me like this is all ultimately sort of a brinkmanship
towards individual liberty itself
because I think at some point people start to realize like there are two options you can live
in the panopticon or not there's not really an in-between and I think when people realize that
like living in the panopticon might be comfortable to a point in time but like you can essentially get
red marked at any point in time and process for elimination I think a lot of people are going to
realize like well if that's a possibility I probably shouldn't make that one that's available
in the first place.
So long-term, I think, like,
people eventually conclude that they need to
not only own their own data, but not...
Like, I think there's a potential for, like,
a totally new form of the Internet
where instead of us having these large corporations
with data siloed in them,
that people own their own data
and that, like, a new structure of the Internet
gets built on top of that.
Do you want to talk about Vora a little bit, maybe?
And I'm not sure how much
has already been disclosed publicly
in terms of these things, but I mean, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about it.
Where are you guys at right now in terms of what you can talk about publicly?
Yeah, so we've been working on our alpha for quite a while.
We've had to revamp it a few different times.
We have a working, we have an open source model that's working.
There's two main components to it.
We have something that's called the Guardian, which is, it's really a local AI that lives
privately on your computer and it's designed to uh like be housed and dwell there that's like
where that information lives and it never touches the open internet and that's kind of the big thing
is like there's a moat in between it and the open internet you then have another section of the ai
that's called uh the explorer and that's designed to like go out on the internet find information
search for it and jesse has very thoughtfully designed a system that allows for this information
to flow in between.
So from the Guardian to the Explorer
and to the Explorer from the Guardian,
the information can be swapped,
but it's never direct.
And so it's always sort of filtered
with an intermediary
so that you can't get prompt injected.
Your private information can't be compromised
because there's something in AI
called the lethal trifecta of AI.
I think Simon Wilson has it on his blog.
It's really good.
Explains it in detail.
but more or less in the lethal trifecta
if you have any of these
three parameters which I think is like
I'd butcher it if I
try to say it online so go look it up if you want to
but it's that any of these three parameters
when you intermix them they introduce
inherent dangers of being able to like
exfiltrate data or compromise stuff
so you have to be very thoughtful about
how you organize an AI
and I'm sure you've been following Clodbot
stuff and Clodbot is a great example
of when you don't obey any of these sort of
security parameters and how well you can get totally fucked.
So in a lot of ways, like we're trying to build really like a security enabled kind
of clodbot in particular ways so that like you can give it all of your personal information
and you know that clodbot isn't just going to take that and go dump it out on the open
internet or vice versa.
It's not just going to kind of randomly take whatever it looks up on the internet and prompt
inject you to then be able to exfiltrate your data.
uh so we have a piece of hardware that it runs pretty well on and the idea is ultimately we want
to give you the hardware you can run run your own local inference all the information lives there
privately you can go explore the internet to gather any new information pull it in and slowly
over time like this is particularly the guardian is going to get to know you a lot better it's
going to know your habits it's going to know your information it's going to be able to read your
emails, it's going to see your calendar. And from this, it's going to essentially become kind of
your primary personal assistant. And from that, it'll spawn up a bunch of smaller agents that
like, maybe you'll have one that runs business, maybe you'll have one that does health stuff for
you, maybe you'll have one that does finances. And from all of this, it becomes more and more
personalized. And through you owning your own data, you can give it more and more private
information, you can do therapy with it, whatever. And this really is kind of why Bitcoiners need to
own this and have because we're the only people with an ethos that really understands why privacy
and security is so paramount to it because this this information is going to be just as valuable
as your bitcoin private key and so it needs to be thought of and protected in the same way
and you can only do that if not only you're running the information locally but on another level there
is robust backup features and also there's a network that can actually like the idea is
eventually different uh like essentially vora boxes will be able to talk to each other and be
able to use homoformic encryption schemes so like i can back up a chunk of your data the rest of the
network can back up chunks of your data and like recoverability becomes this process of where
you don't know what data of mine you're hosting it's kind of part of a larger network and uh
recoverability so that like if somebody steals my box that's always a possibility and like it's not
on Vora. It's part of sort of the larger CT network that operates on top of that. And so like if I
invoke the recovery protocol, I zap you, you know, however much it is to download all of that
information. I get the information downloaded, I can decrypt it, and I now have all of my information
back. So it's, it's still a ways off. It's going slower than we'd want to, but we really think
it's important to get it right and make sure that at no point in this process will we not only fuck
something up and make it so that like your private data can be exfiltrated but that uh
once we do launch that it kind of can't be stopped like once you own the box the data
and information like we have no way to stop you from kind of asking it whatever you want so
do you think so i've got a couple of questions there uh on the one side you you mentioned the
whole Claude bot thing and that has been obviously very uh very in vogue lately do you think there's
quite a few sort of let's say security risks that folks aren't considering with that with everybody
100 i mean watching a few youtube videos and spinning these things up and then hooking it
into everything like it just seems like boy what could go wrong right yeah and like there's plenty
of examples already out there of you know people mismanaging it and it fucking them over in
different ways you know and uh it's one of those things i think a lot of people are unaware of uh
the security risks up until they present themselves so uh go out there watch youtube videos that you
want about it you'll see the problems that it has and for us it's been highly validating for our
thesis like people people want these private ai boxes that they can kind of do whatever they want
with the problem is is like if you don't have robust security parameters in place it can become
very problematic which is why a lot of people are just buying a brand new mac mini or whatever and
loading it up on there which really like you don't need that much power for them you can just
wipe an old macbook get a vps setup and like you're good to go so uh just in terms of what
you mentioned about the way that uh within vora specifically you would be able to have this
network with backup infrastructure and all of that do you envision this then just become i mean this
is you're creating a network of nodes essentially, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, and like the, it's really interesting
because like it demands the Lightning Network,
it demands Noster, and it demands Bitcoin
all to be a part of this kind of stack.
You know, and like I think it's really,
like Noster is kind of the most important one in my opinion
because like now there becomes an ability
to be able to like have a web of trust
with various people in it that have their own force
sort of plugged into them in various ways.
um you know and like we're still just the very beginning of all this and so uh we're going to
call this the ct network uh but ultimately like there's nothing terribly special about it outside
of that like it it's really just a homoformic encryption scheme um like i can locate your data
vis-a-vis no stir and i can pay you for my data with its encrypted id based off of like the lightning
network's infrastructure so like it becomes pretty simple to do this stuff and i think we need to
really take a step back and realize like uh like lightning is relatively immature it's maybe only
i think the white paper was like a decade old maybe and then noster is even what like three
years old or something like that maybe even less and like these are very important core
infrastructures towards this kind of wider decentralized ideal that's been thought of for
i mean a very long time and so the fact that they're all sort of slowly coming into fruition
in their own way is really important and powerful.
And with that, there's probably more stuff on the horizon
that AI is going to help us with in really powerful ways.
I won't be surprised if through an intermixing
of all of this information that eventually
there becomes a wider community AI
that has encrypted weights and parameters
to kind of start as a substrate from how you can
spin up your own open-sourced Vora instances you want.
I mean, I love what you guys are doing because like I know you and I've only gotten to know Jesse a little bit so far, but you guys are like you're hardcore fucking dudes.
And you're fundamentally like anti-authoritarian, anti-state, you know, anti-totalitarianism or to put you not in an anti light, you are pro-human freedom and flourishing at your core.
And that's why like I'm so glad that people like you are building these things.
I'm curious, too.
And, you know, somebody had just just asked this on Noster.
on the live stream, if you're listening to this later, it was Soap Miner.
Since most people are midwits and plugged into the matrix, will we even be able to help them
escape or will this take generations to fight for freedom? And I want to go on top of that a little
bit more, which would be like this place that we're at right now in space time or time space,
it feels really important. And it feels like there's a limited window where we can get things
right and if we don't we're going to be in big fucking trouble just in terms of human freedom
in terms of human flourishing so like where are you at with that how does that just fit into your
thesis like how does that inform what you guys are doing at vora how does it inform how you are
just generally living your life and i mean or am i off base like is it actually just kind of same
as it ever was this is always the feeling that everyone has and i'm just kind of like falling
into that same trap or like is this time different from just like the cyclical rhythms of history
perspective well i mean i think uh there's a bit of like the the two entangled in a particular way
like i think anybody who's rode through a particular zeitgeist at a point in time might
have this special feeling uh and maybe for them it's very true and sincere because like uh
you know world work two or world war one could have gone very different ways um
yeah so like i think if you're in the zeitgeist you can have that particular feeling uh with that
being said i think watching the acceleration of technology watching what i mean the fact that like
you and me are a world apart talking right now a lot like like this is magical alien technology
that like go back just 30 years ago people would be like what the absolute fuck is going on you know
and go back 300 years, they'll be like, you're obviously witches that we need to burn alive
immediately. The fact that like the idea of burning anybody alive to us is like, whoa,
that's too radical. Whereas 300 years ago, people would be like, yeah, of course you burn witches
alive. Like what else are you supposed to do? Well, we could drown them. Like that's like a good idea.
We'll see to see if they float. And if they float, they're a witch, then you have to burn them. So
like, yeah, exactly. Perfect system. But like that, that actually points to, to sort of, again,
the same sort of eugenics project that has now made us all homogenized people is that like
people in antiquity believed that like evil was like a real thing like you had to fight and then
like fighting it viciously and with force was like of necessity whereas now today you have like a lot
of hippie like no like evil like what do you mean like god isn't real like bullshit you know you know
like it's a very particular influence and affect that has occurred to the world that that i personally
think is really dangerous because like i think evil is real but we do have to fight it with force
and our unwillingness to do that is part of why we now have a giant cabal of pedophiles that like
essentially run the world and with that being said like vora specifically came about from an instance
of jesse and i being in a very deep dialogue specifically about like hey like first of all
like what's my book crypto sovereignty about why is bitcoin so important uh is it possible to truly
achieve self-sovereignty in the digital age? Does Bitcoin offer that? Can we do it with the
current kind of hardware that we have? And what's the instance of AI within this? And as we kind of
went deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole of this problem, we realized that like AI was kind
of quintessential to it. Because like if you can't self-host your own AI, being able to self-host
your own Bitcoin is going to be all the more difficult because like eventually these things
sort of merge up. So that's why we ultimately pivoted to why we needed to start with AI.
and eventually this becomes a hardcore vault for kind of all of your cryptographic key information
and at the end of the day like philosophy is first and foremost what leads us and really it's sort of
the question of like what is what does it mean to be in the digital age like what does it mean that
we have access to these technologies what does it mean that as human beings you and I can interface
in this way and also what does it mean that uh there are these greater governmental powers that
have radical panoptic capacities to sort of monitor, surveil, and limit us in very particular
ways. And so for us, ultimately, this business is about being able to push philosophy first and
foremost to its rightful place as a first philosophy of how we choose to live and create
in the world. And so for us, Vora is the abstantiation of that and asserting it in the
world and saying we deserve to have compute in a way that we really control, that we know and
understand its weights and parameters and that I'm free and entitled to talk to my AI, give it any
information I want, and really have the volition on my own to choose what I do or don't ask without
limits. What I think is really interesting is, and also I'd just like to say hell yeah to that,
what I think is interesting and just not at all surprising, but something that's worth mentioning,
and I try to beat this drum a lot because most people still seem not to understand this,
but the big AI companies want more regulation.
They want more government interference.
They want more government control.
And they do it under the guise of Sam Altman being there,
being like, this is so dangerous.
We need more regulation.
We can't have these AI models running amok.
We can't have that.
But what do they really want?
They want an expansion of their moat.
They want an expansion of their regulatory mode.
They do not want these things to be able to get out there into the general public for anybody to be tinkering But I feel like they kind of fucked right now because the genie is already out of the bottle Like the open source like the fact that these things are getting open sourced
means that they've actually, these big companies have already lost to a certain extent.
They just don't quite know it yet.
Would you agree with that?
Absolutely.
I mean, I also think that's part of the approach that they're sort of taking
is because if they say, give us the control,
only frontier models are the ones that businesses can use anybody using an open source model or a
Chinese model is not allowed and anybody that's caught using one is illegal and also goes to show
like the brilliance of the CCCP's approach of that like from you know I think this has been
known for more than a decade that like their approach to AI was to open source everything
to make sure that it collapsed the American capitalist model,
which seems to be highly effective.
And also in a lot of ways, like, I kind of think we're at an endgame
because, like, these are open source.
They're highly efficient on a bunch of levels,
and this essentially drops the cost to doing not only software development
but, like, graphics development, all sorts of things to zero,
which, like, that seems to fulfill the Marxian ideal
of like what happens at the end of capitalism
where everything outstrips itself
to create a classless society.
Now getting into that classless society,
this seems to be not only highly dangerous and contentious,
but like creates a lot of tertiary problems.
But I think that the game of software itself
is sort of at an end game.
So like I very much believe probably sometime
in the next three to five years,
like all of these frontier AI companies go belly up
because not only is the cost,
like they're dumping all this time, energy, and effort into compute,
but like the cost of compute for this stuff is going to drop substantially
as these models sort of self-feedback into themselves
and become more and more efficient, find better ways of token usage.
In addition to people being able to like have these different collaborative models
that like hopefully Vora will have to where like you'll be able to get on Noster,
you'll be able to rent a little bit of compute from other people
if you want to run big projects or simulations.
And instead of that going to a company like Amazon
that has a huge data server somewhere,
it just goes out to all the people that have a VOR device at home.
And yeah, it'll split up the instance between 100 different computers
over the course of several hours.
And you get your simulation back in, you know, four or five hours.
And you made five bucks and so did 100 other people
because I was able to buy that from you directly.
I actually, I like, I love that idea to just from a more fundamental premise of that should be the way that quote, the internet works, right? This was always sort of the initial idea of the internet pioneers was to have it be this way was not to have it be all siloed into AWS East, you know, and AWS East goes down.
And it's like, well, okay, fuck, I guess nothing works now.
Like cloud flares down.
Oh, I guess we're all fucked now.
Can't do internet stuff for today.
But we've gotten so far.
And again, so much of that comes back to the regulatory moat that these companies have been able to create.
And you see this as well across all the new compliance with all these digital ID laws or the age-appropriate ID laws,
whether it's in the UK or Australia or name any other nation or Discord just said they're going to start adding.
They did that kind of voluntarily, I guess.
start adding in age verification via ID.
And what does it all come back to?
It comes back to creating a cost of compliance that is too hard for startups to,
they can't compete with that because they don't have the money yet to be able to compete with that cost of compliance.
Whereas the incumbents have the massive legal teams, have the massive budgets.
That's the cost of doing business for them is dealing with this compliance.
And they want that.
And I think people like are asleep at the wheel.
that's whenever i hear these news stories about like well we're just gonna institute uh id checks
on this online platform but it's don't worry guys it's just to keep the kids safe and it's like well
how would you like this fucking rap do you want to rap is you know protect the kids or counter
terrorism because it's all a method of control meanwhile the epstein stuff is out there and it's
very clear that people like bill clinton and other people were very implicit in it so like how much
do you actually give a shit about helping kids in a meaningful way like maybe just maybe you're
actually lying to me for your own benefit but no that's too far and like the like this is one of
the things where like i i have a lot of empathy towards people is like i get that like you're such
a simpleton that like the idea of there being wickedness out in the world and that like maybe
there actually is a cabal of people that are uh engaged in ritual child sacrifice in order to try
to get the powers of moulatch like i i get like that's a horrific and disgusting thought and it's
really difficult to try to swallow but like what if that actually is true and like what does it
mean now that you believe these people when they come to you and tell you that they're trying to
implement age verification to protect the kids meanwhile they're actually taking advantage of
them in the background like is it possible that evil people would lie for their own benefits and
that instead of you accepting that evil is actually a real thing in the world that and that evil people
would then lie to you to take advantage of it that you can't accept that that even exists in
the world which is a beautiful idea like i i really appreciate that like you see the world
as rainbow and sunshines and that we're all we're all equal good people just trying our best
but maybe there's actually some people out there that would be totally cool with cutting the heart
of a living child and sacrificing it to moulatch because they believe that would give them very
real powers i get it's a fucking crazy idea but like let's just try it on for a minute
and if that is true would these people be willing to lie to you maybe i don't know but
it's really difficult because like um and this is why i always try to present people to to
hannah a dent in the banality of evils like look like you can't reason with evil and like there's
no point where it's like they went to eichmann they're like hey you're evil and he was like oh
shit you're right like i shouldn't kill all these people this is like a terrible thing no the whole
time he was like i'm a good guy i'm following the rules like i did what i was told if people don't
do what they're told society collapses and i was like look at this motherfucker he like killed
millions of people and he believes that he's the good guy is it possible all this shit's going on
again maybe is it possible that all these people are the same people in positions of government and
power who believe that when they tell you shit like blowing up kids in Yemen is for the safety
of our republic I don't know oh I'm gone it like wasn't me that dropped out or was it him that
dropped out I don't know you know I'll uh get on signal here if it's just me streaming uh welcome
to my individual podcast I guess this is where we're starting the premiere anyways uh if this
is just me alone i would like to say that i love you all thanks for wanting to to listen to me
diatribe about bullshit okay let's see so am i still live
i guess i might be
yeah yeah yeah i think i am live so thanks for joining me uh walkers having technical
difficulties. I'm streaming on my own here. It's still recording. I don't know, man. Like it's,
I think we need to, I mean, this orange party thing, I'm, I really want to do. I think it's
really important. I think if we asserted it and tried it, we'd win. Maybe it's like a decade down
the road but uh i don't know it scares me it's difficult yeah but i think that might just be in
our fate you know let me text walker and see if he's coming back but uh let me get on uh primal
here. I'll take some of your questions if need be. All right. Walker's coming back. Don't worry,
his internet sucks. Ours isn't so bad here. But this is our studio at San Francisco Presidio
Bitcoin. We're located here in the Presidio. It's a fun place. Some of you should come visit
at some point in time. Yeah, and I'm kind of thinking maybe I'll even do my own podcast out
here. I need to start recording my audio book for crypto sovereignty. So I think I'm going to be
using this space to do that. Because yeah, a lot of people have made the request for an audio book,
it'd be good for me to reread my own book after it's been like three years since I published it.
But yeah, I'm looking forward to doing that should start some interesting dialogue.
Yeah, I think as Bitcoiners, we need to kind of understand like the the future is something that
we can really assert and try to make a meaningful change but if uh i mean kind of truthfully if we're
gonna try to do this like really nice kind way of being like oh please accept bitcoin we love
like oh trying to compromise somebody like i don't i don't think that's gonna work
i think we need to be more assertive uh i think we need to communalize ourselves greater i'd love
to see more circular economies popping up.
We're seeing that happen in more places like El Salvador,
which I just got back from El Salvador.
So I was pretty enthusiastic about what I saw.
I was surprised and impressed.
Like I thought it was going to be a passing thing.
I don't think I'm seeing that like they're really trying
to sincerely develop it down there.
But more than anything else, I'm seeing that education,
and not like I think El Salvador is doing a great job.
I think education on a whole and really getting people to understand why they need Bitcoin is really important.
But, you know, it's very difficult.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Walker's just saying, Quince and all this happened right during the satanic pedo talk.
Yeah, it's true.
Let me just let him know.
I'm in here.
All right.
So, yeah, I was surprised and impressed with what was going on in El Salvador.
I think we need more of that.
I think we need people encouraging each other to accept Bitcoin.
I think we need to be using Bitcoin as a way to, frankly, really engage in meaningful tax evasion.
Yeah, and ultimately, like, we need to fight back at some point in time.
And at some point in time, this becomes a real fight.
And it's difficult.
You know, like a lot of us have vulnerabilities that we have to come to terms with and that trying to fight the state on its turf is really difficult, particularly if you like own a home or have a family or any of these things.
So I don't know.
That's part of what's made me hesitate from all of this is like I don't want to put my own livelihood at risk.
I don't want to risk my family.
But I think a lot of us feel that way.
and it's also one of those things if we don't make this choice now we have to make this choice
later down the line so like what do we do if that's what happens yep yep okay so yes i am
okay cool yeah so i didn't know if this was live i thought it was live it looks live so
it says live so i'm gonna keep acting like it's live um yeah another other on other fronts stuff
with Vora's going really great.
If you're interested in my book, Crypto Sovereignty,
I'm going to be presenting that at Bitcoin Vegas.
I call it Shitcoin Vegas
because there's a lot of shit-coating that goes on there,
and it's really tragic and sad.
And it's also the place that has the highest Bitcoin signal.
I think that this is one of the places that, as Bitcoiners,
we've sort of made a mistake of doing the pro-Bitcoin thing.
I really like that, particularly in Europe,
between Bitcoin Riga and Bitcoin Prague.
Both of them have made the choice to stay kind of Bitcoin maximalist oriented
versus Bitcoin Vegas, which I feel like is of the pro-Bitcoin subset.
And not to say that there's anything necessarily wrong with pro-Bitcoin,
but I find that it allows for the cozying up of a lot of shitcoiners
and a lot of nihilists and kind of shitty people.
and I think that that's been really problematic to a lot of us
and that's kind of where I think greater resistance needs to be
is kind of calling out the scammers for where they're at.
It's also problematic and difficult with some of our own interfeuding, if you will.
I think I've made it clear kind of my own position on some of that stuff.
I'm happy and willing to talk more about it.
Walker said he's going to be back relatively soon.
But, yeah, I think for me, one of my next big steps, recording my audio book, Crypto Sovereignty, if any of you are interested in like having a dialogue with me about a particular chapter, I'd love to do that.
I actually have a chapter from like two years ago that me and Fractal and Crypt recorded together.
It was really interesting. Great dialogue.
But to me, like at the end of the day, Bitcoin to me is of the political.
And when I say of the political, I mean like capital T, capital P, the political.
So like what the founding fathers did, like what they did was part of the political.
Like they weren't engaging in politics at all.
They were engaging in the political because they were saying, what does it mean that we're human beings?
And like we have an ability and a right to actually organize ourselves politically.
that like this isn't something that comes from the manifest of from God to the sovereign.
And very much for today, like we behave like the United States has some sort of legitimacy
just based on the fact that like they own the apparatus of governance today.
And I think there's a real opportunity for us, particularly with this technology,
not just Bitcoin, not just AI, not just Noster, but kind of all of these things together.
and more importantly that ethos that comes with it,
there's a chance that we could change things,
that we could actually make things better.
I don't know about you, but one of the things that I feel
kind of the greatest amount of resentment towards my parents' generation
is that things feel worse for us.
And I think most people in between the age brackets of 25 and 40
would agree with that statement we we were given a short end of the stick we were given
fiat inflation we were given higher housing prices higher education higher health care
like across the board shit is harder for us and that wasn't true for our parents or
their parents and it's not to blame them but it's to to really point out that like there's
something structurally and inherently wrong and it could be different could be radically different
but until we choose to address the fact that both the republican party and the democrat party are
radically corrupt beyond recovery and until we fundamentally reject both of them as structures of
being capable of governing us uh nothing will actually change and that's what that's what i
want the orange party for i've kind of thought about certain like an orange party podcast and
just making that like a way point for it i guess but again it's difficult you know like i i have
all my own very real human struggles uh yeah that that holds me back in a bunch of ways um
but with that being said at some point we have to take on enough responsibility and kind of set
that stuff aside and say you know what whether whether or not i believe in the possibilities
with this, I still have to make an attempt towards it. And I think that that's important that we try
to do as a people. And when I say people, like I don't mean American, but I mean like people that
love freedom, liberty, choice, the ability and capacity to be able to actually make a substantial
and meaningful change for ourselves and our future and our children's futures. And I think there's a
new sort of ethos that's getting formed and created that has came out of the cypherpunk
movement that's becoming larger and more important and more robust than uh sort of the smallness that
uh the cypherpunk movement developed from and i think it's because well one the internet kind of
touches everything now but i think two is uh that as it touches everything we realize that like if we
don't take on these same ideals and values of sort of taking on what the sort of radical libertarianism
and sort of, in my opinion,
it's sort of like an anarcho-communist synthesis in a lot of ways.
Syndicalism is kind of a pretty good word for it,
whether most people don't know,
but one of the most powerful movements politically
at the turn of the 20th century was something called syndicalism.
It eventually became fascism through national syndicalism.
But all this is like a pretty important development
where syndicalism is the idea of just like people sort of syndicalizing themselves.
Classically, this was done through industrial labor industry.
So like if we were all plumbers,
we would syndicalize our plumbing unions together to make like one big union.
And eventually it went from plumbing to like maybe like all,
you know, like plumbers and electricians and I don't know,
like any other kind of trade union movement.
and it becomes a bigger and bigger and bigger union
until eventually it comprises kind of all of laborers.
But I think at this point we're like past identifying as people who sell our labor,
and I think it is now about being Internet users,
which like as a class that seems like kind of absurd, right?
Like who doesn't use the Internet? Exactly.
Very similar to like at the turn of the 20th century,
like who didn't sell their labor?
Very few people.
at some point I'll have to do like a big long conversation about the development of anarchism
communism capitalism sort of development of all these things since they all kind of have their
origin at Heigl so like it's a big long and robust discussion but we don't need to have that today
and so I think like we need to syndicalize ourselves as internet users and realize that
being users of the internet we sort of need to assert our internet user rights if you will
and we also need like an internet users union something that is uh more or less about like
we can all belong to it maybe it's even a membership based thing i don't know like
eventually this comprises of billions of people right but that through us collectivizing ourselves
around like very agreeable principles,
very much like I think most people in the United States today
would agree with the Bill of Rights,
like the rights that are enumerated in there
and what it means to be an American.
Like it's kind of a low bar to achieve,
but I think we can get something similar for the Internet.
And we need to insist on those rights and values
being extended to kind of everybody that uses the Internet.
Like I don't really – I don't care if you're Chinese or South African or Cambodian.
Like you probably have the same rights, needs, and demands as I do.
And we should probably try to create something together to ensure those rights because I mean it not a future I imagine but maybe at some point in time I got to flee to some other country because of how bad stuff gets here in America or vice versa as most of human history has told You know like I I think America is a pretty great place i really want to protect the ability and capacity for uh people that are in more difficult circumstances to come
here and i really hope that the internet can be a bridge that we can use for that um but again like
this is a large and substantial undertaking that like i don't know i'm like i'm kind of tired like
I want to contribute as much as I can,
but trying to count on me to, like, move the boulder forward
in a capacity or context like this.
That shit's hard, man.
But I don't know.
Like, with the encouragement of some of you
and the ability to go on this journey together, you know,
like maybe we find a solidarity like that Frodo and Sam had
where we can make this long journey to destroy the one ring of power
to the volcano at Mordor.
But yeah, it's going to be a long journey.
Speaking of long journeys, what the fuck happened to Walker?
I think, I hope he'll come back.
He said he's restarting his computer, but we'll see.
Outside of that, you know, like I've been spending a lot of time and energy
really thinking about like what does it mean to create a dwelling for ourselves
in the digital age.
It's what I'm working on right now.
It's based off of a Heidegger piece called
Thinking, Building, Dwelling.
It's a really good piece,
but he talks about how the nature of man is to dwell.
Oh, great. Thank God you came back.
I was about to lecture people on thinking, building, dwelling from Heidegger.
I leave for five minutes and hear you talking about unionizing.
you know and i'm like geez you know i well it's like it's syndicalizing which is like a number of
unions together but you know i'm just gonna say god you're back i don't want to have to explain
heidegger to people anymore uh thank but i i appreciate i am i'm not sure what happened i'm
not sure if it's you know the wife watching netflix or the satanic pedophiles but um satanic
up there the amazing thing is that while uh apparently i was down i was still able to watch
it on Noster on my phone, which is kind of amazing.
So I felt like I was still here with you.
I thought they were good rants.
Are you going to do an audio book for Crypto Sovereignty?
Yeah, that was kind of why I got set up in the studio here today was because I wanted
to do the stream here, but also I wanted to get set up to start doing that because the
book has been out for almost three years now, so it's kind of time to get started on that
point.
I feel like it'll encourage more people to kind of engage in this dialogue that I'm interested
in.
And, yeah, a lot of people don't know how to read, so reading it to them is helpful.
Dude, first of all, you're going to read it yourself, right?
Yeah, that's why it hasn't happened yet.
Okay.
Dude, I'm not going to lie.
Audiobooks, they are not easy.
It is a shocking amount of work.
But also I feel like you reading it in your tone and your voice
and you knowing the material better than, like, obviously anyone else
is kind of like crucial for this particular book you know what i mean yeah so like i'm i'm kind of
thinking like uh i'm gonna read a chapter and then i don't know how i'm gonna structure it but like
i then kind of want to do like a secondary reading where i'm like all right i mentioned like all this
shit that i have to kind of go into so like in the second paragraph i say this thing that's a
reference to this and then i reference it because of blah blah blah because there's a bunch of shit
like almost every other paragraph, I have something like that tucked in there.
And so I guess on some level, like sort of knew I was going to do this in the future
and wanted to explain it.
But also that's what a lot of philosophy is,
is like having these secondary readings to like unpack all of this shit in a particular way.
Well, I'm stoked for it.
You're going to end up having like a 50-hour audiobook though,
but like I'm totally here for it, you know?
Yeah, and like I'm trying to figure out like do I kind of keep it like
just the raw reading on like chapter one?
Or like, do I have like my extended version where I read the first paragraph and I go,
okay, like I just mentioned this thing.
Here's all the subset.
All right, I'm going to like move on to the second paragraph and like keep doing that.
So I don't know.
We'll see how it all works out.
I'm hoping the AI recording software might be good enough that like I can kind of do it all one in the same.
But we'll see.
Yeah, it's going to be a fun journey for you.
So I was listening to a number of the things you said there.
And you brought up the orange party as well because like,
and also shout out to average Gary for building out a,
just like a propel of nothing built out a website for it.
If you go to, I think it's, I think it's at the orange party.org.
But he literally took, he took like the one.
Yeah.
It's the orange party.org or the orange party.org.
I just say the now for, for a lot of things.
It's probably because it's the Bitcoin podcast,
but he took that conversation that you and I had with American HODL
and just basically got AI to like, okay, synthesize this,
put it into like a party format.
And it's like a really nice, clean site too.
And I think there is almost a need, you know,
I heard you brought up as well, like, okay,
maybe you just like start a podcast around this.
And I think it's actually beneficial.
Like who was, I forget if it was Dick Greaser or Rod Palmer,
one of the Bugle guys who, when they were on my show,
they were like, you know, it used to be the man in the arena.
Now it's the man in the studio.
Like the man in the studio is the man in the arena now,
which I thought was like, it was kind of brilliant.
There being a little tongue in cheek,
but also not at all tongue in cheek,
because I think that that's actually meaningful.
Like media has, it's like, it's always,
it's a form of control,
but it's also a form of liberation, right?
It has a dualism to it, like a lot of things.
And throughout history, there's never been a time
where we had this like many to many
or one to many like distribution model.
It's always been like one,
it's always been one to many and it's always been hyper controlled it's always been just working
hand in glove with governments it's always been or the church depending on how far back you go
right it's always been a method of control and obfuscation of the truth and now we have this
opportunity with like new media in this age where you and I were you know I'm sitting in a studio in
a weird room in my house you're sitting in a studio in the presidio like we are able to broadcast
with the same efficacy as somebody with a multi-million dollar studio, right?
And that's like a hugely powerful, and you don't even need these fancy Shure SM7B mics
and a Rodecaster.
Like you can just broadcast via this supercomputer in your pocket.
And I feel like that's such a, it's such a liberating force.
And it's again, one of those things where the genie doesn't go back in the bottle with this.
They can't put this away.
And so I truly think like where we're at right now, and you see this even with, you know, like any sort of legacy media you can consume because they're not mainstream anymore.
They are legacy.
It's all just such trash.
Like most of it was already slop.
And now it's just even sloppier.
And they're just they're slowly dying.
I don't know how like I don't know how anybody still advertises with a lot of these publications anymore.
I mean, even the Financial Times publishing that article from whatever, Jemima Kelly about Bitcoin's $69,000 too expensive, basically.
And then they changed the article like an hour later because Bitcoin was $70,000.
So they had to change the headline.
It's just like nobody trusts you anymore.
They haven't trusted you for a long time.
Like you are dying.
You just don't necessarily realize it yet.
But like from their ashes, something better has been reborn, I think.
Yeah, for sure.
I was thinking about how it's always also like on the precipice of these technological changes that like Gutenberg's printing press like allowed for the printing of the Bible to be read by individuals like Luther who then were like, hey, like maybe like don't need the fucking church for this stuff.
And same thing like that printing press also like allowed for people to distribute their own pamphlets, which they could be like, hey, like, you know, like maybe like the king isn't the right way to do this.
Maybe we should do like a representative thing.
so yeah i do think it's a radically empowering thing uh and also like i kind of feel like the
call to arms just to be like hey we need we need a different approach and like this form of
governance is broken i think a lot of people would answer the call it's kind of like the field of
dreams thing like build it and they will come um but on another level like it's also like pretty
terrifying it's like you know we were just talking about a that were ran by a uh satanic cult of
uh pedia pedophilia eating children uh and like it's i don't know like on one level it's kind of
scary and it feels unrealistic and on the other level it feels very real and direct um but at
some level like i don't know i think most people that have children eventually realize that like
we're gonna leave them a world that's like a lot worse than the one we inherited the one we
inherited was like a lot shittier than our parents so it's like can we do that to them
like i feel like our parents at least like they you know like i always find this really interesting
that like my mom was a single mom who like had a really hard time getting by we like grew up poor
uh but like she still managed to like buy a house and like keep it like if you're a single mom today
like there's no fucking way that's even remotely on the table um and they're like is a real lack
of appreciation from the generation before of like what that means it's funny because like i uh
i live in a place right now that i rent and i i have the thought a lot of times like like how the
fuck do you create any sense of community in like a like a rental place because like i you know like
the drain's broken there isn't good incentive for me to fix it but say like same thing about anything
with the house or like you know planting a garden like what's the incentive like i don't know if i'll
be there in the next year so like why uh and it's pretty sad because like that that that starts to
conform society in a very particular way to where uh there's no longer such thing as community
because community is about this similar to what i was going to start talking about like it's about
dwelling it's about a place that you really intend to not just live but like that's where your life
emanates from whereas simply residing in a building for some duration of time is not
about building community. It's just about passing time. And I think that without something like the
Orange Party, we're going to find ourselves kind of continuously caught between these two highly
corrupt and frankly evil parties. And like my dream with the Orange Party is like eventually
figure out that we have political policy at that point, sweep the elections. And then it's like
full on like PAC state official offices with state attorneys that are like loyal to Orange Party.
And full sweep of the feds of put them all on trial for treason.
And at the end, like whoever's found guilty, hang them publicly.
And like it's a scary prospect, but like I fundamentally believe that most federal representatives, meaning more than 50 percent, like I think there are traitors to the American republic.
I think that they have directly collaborated with foreign corporations and governments to essentially sacrifice the American public.
And I think that like unless we make it very clear that the rule of law is applicable to everyone and that if you are in a federal public office and you try to get around the rules for your own benefit, you will be held accountable.
And I think right now, you know, take Nancy Pelosi, for example.
Like why is it that she's been a career politician and she is worth hundreds of millions of dollars?
like that that seems to be very indicative of corruption and i find it wild that there's a lot
of people who will outright defend her and i don't know maybe we get farther down the road on this
when we realize there's a lot more corruption than we want to believe but i'd like to think
that we're better than that so but this goes back to the initial point that we were discussing
earlier which is like the fact that you brought up like look most people just aren't going to
actually care or change in any way, even with the realization that there is all this just heinous,
all these heinous things being done at the highest levels of our government with regard to Epstein.
It's like, I just, I don't know what ends up shaking people loose of this because you can tell
somebody that, well, Nancy Pelosi's got, you know, 200, 200, $300 million net worth, whatever it is,
like, you know, and how is that? How is that possible? Why is she? Why is her stock trading
record and her husband's like, one of the greatest of all time? How does she even have time for all
of that? Like, oh, my God, she must really be spending time studying so much. Or like, even
even look at like Elizabeth Warren, you know, champion of the people, she's got a net worth of
like 60 million or something. And I'm not knocking them because they have a high net worth. I'm
knocking them because they've abused their positions of power. That's the fundamental
difference. There's nothing wrong with having a lot of money. There's something wrong with being
in a position where you were elected to serve the people and then you just basically rape and abuse
that position like you are just you are the lowest of the low like i mean even these we had multiple
cases during covid of federal reserve uh governors that uh rosen grand kaplan and there's one more
whose name i'm forgetting who were caught insider trading they didn't even get punished for it they
They just like, Jerome was like, well, we'll institute new ethics policies.
And it's like, oh, because those work really well.
Like, you fucking idiot.
Like, no, like this is just, it's all, it's corrupt to the core, I think, is the problem, Eric.
And like, you talk about this all the time.
It's just like this duopoly that we have, this, as my father-in-law who escaped communism calls it, he's like, Walker, in America, you have Coca-Cola, Pepsi-Cola democracy.
You don't like Coca-Cola, you get Pepsi-Cola, but you still drink cola.
And it's true.
It's that idea.
He loves America, by the way.
He's been in America for a long time.
He defected from communism to get here.
He knows what communism looks like, and he does not want it to happen here.
But honestly, it just gets frustrating to the point where I think everybody, because of the dualism of our political system,
everybody feels that they must defend their team no matter what that team does everyone feels they
must attack other team no matter what that team does good or bad on either side right and it's
the same for both but we because of that we will never actually have meaningfully honest conversations
about the true nature of the corruption because everybody will defend their own team even when
they know they've got like there's a bunch of satanic pedophiles on both sides right like
satanic pedophilia has bipartisan fucking support but we're never going to get anywhere with it
because everybody just holds the party line and and i don't know like you're right we're never
going to vote our way out of that because you're voting for two sides of the same coin like two
sides of the same satanic pedophilic coin that happen to have different colors and it's like
what do you do like but more parties you know like having a big parliamentary system isn't necessarily
the the answer either with a bunch of you know coalition governments but that's why i think this
idea that that you kind of initially posited around the orange party is so powerful because
it starts out as more of a cultural movement than a political but it is necessarily political in its
nature like is that kind of the way you you frame it like the cultural leading to the political or
being part of the political yeah and i think that and and like i i think the lowest substrate in it
is like the rejection of the red and blue guys
with that like, you know, pedophilia and satanicism
has bipartisan support and we project that.
And starting there, like I think is kind of the best place that you can do.
And also like I think part of the problem is that like
we're so atrophied and calcified into looking backwards
to answer the political that like we,
the idea of looking forward away from classic approaches seems nearly impossible.
And like the I think we all have this boner for democracy because we believe that like everybody should have a say within our systems and forms of governance, which I think there's some credence to that.
But with that being said, like, why isn't there something that's more about like a real time liquid democracy thing?
Like, I feel like if there was an ability to because like the other thing is, is like I joke a lot about fascism kind of tongue in cheek and part of it's serious, part of it's not because like specifically with the world we're dealing with today.
Like I if you had a hardcore fascist movement where you had a leader that was like, give me the power.
I will hang the pedophiles.
I will butcher the satanic culturist, which is kind of ironic because that's satanic in its own right.
but like I will deal with these things through the law and capital punishment.
I'd probably support them because like I'm pretty angry about how corrupt things are
and like I have a very deep disgust for somebody like Elizabeth Warren
mostly for her hypocrisy.
Like it would be really different if she wasn't so hypocritical
in trying to like lecture me about how I don't care for the people
and that I want Bitcoin to be able to destroy the environment
And it's like, bitch, like how, like, like you have the audacity to try to lecture me on this.
Well, well, like you literally started out as a woman who said, I'm going to stand up against the big banks.
And now you take more money from the big banks than any other representative.
Like, like, it's just, it's a real smack to the face.
And more than anything, I'm really resentful about that.
And I think there's a lot of people out there that feel the same way.
And I think that trying to collectivize ourselves and realize that like there's there's a technological solution we have to this that nobody's thought of yet.
And I feel like if we really put our heads together and tried our best to find a way to approach that and kind of synthesize all these things, maybe there's a real answer.
But it's also really scary.
It's not like, you know, it's not like you start organizing something like this and the Democrats and Republicans are like, they're like using cryptography to like build the system.
Like, dang it.
Like we, you know, like, and this is like where the wrench attack thing comes from is it's like, ha ha, I've encrypted my passwords.
You'll never get it from me.
And it's like, yeah, just beat them with this wrench for a while and we'll see what happens.
So like there's a lot of risk with this stuff.
And I think there's very strong forces of not only propaganda, but other things.
But at some point we have to ask ourselves, like, when is actually enough enough?
And I think, like, that's a really terrifying question because I think a lot of people realize that there probably actually isn't a point.
You know, like, if the police did come to their house and ask them to murder their neighbor, they'd probably be okay with it.
And, like, I don't want to be critical of other people for the choices that they make.
But I personally really want to be able to leave a better future for my kids and feel like they have greater rights and capacity to protect those, but also the ability to have real privacy and to be able to have the volition to ask questions that they want to.
And that's something that is really insignificant lack today.
That like even trying to ask sincere questions around any taboo topic is really difficult.
and so I don't know I think a lot about these things and how there's an opportunity that
presents itself to us but we just have to be courageous enough to actually seize it
uh and I'm afraid like maybe I'm too chicken shit to do that and like it's a deeply shameful
thing to have to actually like kind of see it and be like I don't know like maybe I'm too
afraid to do this I I feel that sentiment very deeply I also think that it's different because
like when you have kids, right?
Like you, you fund
Mentally, when you have children, there is now something that you do care about more than yourself.
And you, that was the, our son was born.
That was when I first understood what like true low time preference meant and actual long-term
thinking.
I thought I did, but I really only grasped it in this sort of theoretical academic way
where I was like, well, yeah, I'm a long-term thinker.
I mean, I'm thinking long into the future, you know, generations, right?
But it's like, no, until you see that next generation there, I don't think you can really
grapple with that.
Like there's a reason that even most of the revolutionaries, the great men who built this country were very young men.
Right. And obviously some of them were married, like some of them had kids, too.
But like a lot of them were were very young, like they were brimming with fucking testosterone and hatred of the fucking tyrannical British Empire.
And they went out there with reckless abandon and put their lives in the line.
that gets a lot harder to do when you are,
when you have like a child or children to answer to, I think.
It's like, I feel that like there,
there is a balance there where it's like,
to what point do you put yourself out there?
To what point do you risk yourself?
Because you're not just risking yourself anymore.
When you have kids, you're risking everything.
Like you're risking your family.
And I think that's where it becomes a difficult proposition.
And it is hard to grapple with.
Cause then at the same time, you're like, well,
but fucking a, like nobody else is stepping up.
Nobody else is doing this.
Nobody else is speaking the truth.
How do you, you know, but will I just be one of the others that slinks back into the darkness
and decides, well, I'll let somebody else do that?
Or will I be the one who tries to speak the truth?
And I think fundamentally, too, where I always come back to, because, you know, you brought
up this point about privacy, too.
And I think that that's so important for our kids to have.
It's something that I think about a lot.
And I think that it's become this idea that the whole trope of why do you need privacy if you have nothing to hide?
Why do you need that, right?
That old trope.
And it's so insidious because we're now at a point where our kids could grow up with literally zero privacy, like of any kind.
Not even private thoughts.
No private communications of any kind unless maybe you're in person.
But even if you're in person, if you're in any sort of concentrated, you know, urban or suburban area, you're still going to be surveilled there.
That's all still going to be tracked.
It's all still going to be associated with your face.
It's all going to be tagged to your social profile, which is ultimately then going to be assessed by AI and determine whether or not you're a threat to the societal order.
And, you know, for the greater good, maybe you need to be removed.
it is a terrifying fucking prospect because i don't think you can have any sort of actual
freedom without privacy at its core like i think you need that i don't think you can have true
free speech if you can't speak freely in private i don't think you can have anything without
privacy at its core but people just don't give a shit like people really don't give a shit about
privacy like at all and they're perfectly willing they haven't suffered the convenience right
you know it's yeah um it's like at the core of the idea of not having privacy is really about
thought modification and making it so that you can't think in a way that has any dissonance
within it you know because like uh this is why volition and the ability to think for yourself
is so important it is not that like not because i'm going to shove a fork in the light socket on
my own. But if I can't be like, Oh, if like, if I'm told to shove a fork in a light sock and I do
it anyway, it's like, I'm going to learn from the lesson of it. But if we're not allowed to think
for ourselves, I can't be like, Oh, like maybe this is dangerous to me. Maybe I shouldn't do that.
Like maybe even if Bob said to do it, that that like, that's a dangerous thing.
And so to me like there there we entering into an age of extraordinary danger of where not only can we lose the ability to actually have the privacy and the ability to have volition to think for ourselves but that becomes something much more extreme in that getting outside of that box to even consider why it could have value is starting to become endangered in itself
and I think the other thing is is that uh I think the truth is is that like we exist in a very
important time and that like in five years from now like this thing is we kind of either have
freedom or we don't and like those are kind of the options on the table um and the other one is
like and I think Trump Trump's election and appeal is a signalist like people are fucking sick of
normal politicians like people people hate the the Nancy Pelosi's and Chuck Grassley's of the world
like we're we're no longer interested in this kind of performative appeal to everybody like we want
people that'll actually kind of speak off the cuff and be real people and I think Trump captures some
of that in a particular way and so like while I think the prospect of something like an orange
Party, while it seems far-fetched from our particular angle right now, like kind of every
major political movement seemed like that at its fruition. You know, whether it was Lenin's
Communist Party and when he wrote what needs to be done in 1906 and the development that happened
over the next decade that allowed her to seize Russia, or the fact that the Nazi Party in 1927
only captured three percent of the vote in Germany, and then like it happened to sweep the elections by
1933. Like any radical political movement seems very nascent at its beginning. But I think Bitcoiners
seem to have captured a particular form and ethos that while it's still definitely in the minority,
like I think we're looking at history in the right direction. I think if you look at some of the works
of a number of individuals like Lawrence Lepard's work that shows, like just do the math and you'll
see that the US dollar is going to die, that people are going to need an alternative, that
Bitcoin seems to be the best representation of what that alternative is, not just for
Americans, but for the globe on a whole.
I think we should try to assert that politically in a large and meaningful way.
And like, I hate the one that I'm the most pedantic about it because it seems to ascribe
some particular responsibility towards me.
But like, I don't fucking want it.
I just see it.
And I like, I want somebody else to pick it up and run with it.
I'm happy to help and do and encourage it.
But I don't know.
Maybe I should just accept fate
and that I'm sort of doomed towards something like this
and I don't want it.
But maybe that would make me a good dictator.
And to be clear, I'm a dictator.
I'm super like this representative democracy thing to me is bullshit.
Like I don't understand why I'm supposed to collectivize myself
with a bunch of fucking idiots that can't think for themselves.
Why the fuck should somebody who hasn't studied any amount of history have the same right and capacity to make comments on those as I do?
And I get that that's inflammatory in a particular way, but I think most people are fucking morons.
And that's why when you talk to them about money and they're like, well, the dollar is backed by gold, right?
It's like, I don't know where to start here.
So I don't know.
I'm a bit resentful about the whole thing,
but at the same time, like,
and like with all of, with shitting on people like that,
there's also brilliant, incredible,
extraordinary individuals that are making
massive contributions to humanity a thousand times over in the most incredible ways And like I that part of why I so big on individual rights is that like I way
more concerned and interested in the one in one million people that can become Einstein's
and protecting the ability and capacity for them to explore and discover and allow for
them to become who they can really be with their potential than I am in helping out the
other you know 999,000 people that are absolutely it's that will never make an impact on the world
like I just I just I very much believe in the individual in very radical ways so that's kind
of gives you some idea of how I approach things when so much of it just also comes back to like
the perversion of the law and private property and the fact that like we're we don't and to bring
back to community and then we'll wrap this up because I've kept you along already and I made
you I made you roll solo for a while and I appreciate I appreciate you doing so but but
this idea are you gonna make me roll again by myself no not at all not at all but you started
to break up there oh geez fuck I was hoping I'm hoping not so far so good Jesus um you know the
idea that like you talked about community earlier and building that now that's actually like not
possible without the dwelling, right? And it's not possible without private property. And it also
gets back to this idea of why communism ultimately deteriorates and fails is because when people
don't have ownership, when there's quote, collective ownership, nobody gives a shit about
things. When things are yours, when you have private property, you protect those things,
you make those things better. You grow upon those things to create more when it's not yours,
when it's just, you know, the parties, when it's the collectives, you don't actually give a fuck
about that. And so much of what democracy goes toward ultimately, like the end state of it is
mob rule, right? And this is something that's been around for thousands of years with like
Polybius's anticyclosis was this first kind of like instantiation of this, which was you start
out, you know, the society's moving in these sociopolitical cycles where it starts out with
a monarch. The monarch becomes a dictator. From dictatorship, you move to an aristocracy that
takes over from that and they govern well for a while it moves to an uh oligarchy when the when
that gets corrupted from the oligarchy you move to a democracy and everything is great and fine
and then it moves to mob rule eventually uh oglocracy and then eventually what is necessary
to get out of mob rule and oglocracy well that's a strong man a monarch uh you know a dictator to
come back in and be able to bring things and to right the ship essentially and i think that like
we're at the uh we're right on the verge of that oglocracy stage right now where democracy it's
being clear that that is just, it's not working as well as people kind of thought it does,
or as well as people want to imagine that it does.
And, and we're going to have a reckoning with that.
People are, because it's like, you can't just keep taxing people to hell while at the same
time saying, well, your vote is just the same as everyone else's, no matter how much you
contribute to the society.
Like people eventually are going to get sick and tired of that.
And I think they are already.
And the fact that you're also stealing from them every single day, week, month, year through
inflation at the same time while taxing them to death, it's like people are just getting sick and
tired of it and they will eventually break. And I think that, you know, we're going to start,
it's going to be a chaotic time, Eric, a very chaotic time. For sure. And the question is,
how are we going to respond to that kind of breakdown? And, you know, like I think there's
some new political form that synthesizes technology democratic rights republicanism like how much one pays into a system I think there some pretty novel and interesting ways to approach this question but I think we need to actually try to address it technologically at some point in time
And it feels like now is the time, particularly with AI and where it's at in its development.
Because also, like, it seems to me how radical these powers are,
that people are going to be restricted from having access to it.
And I think that that's going to be a huge preeminent right in the next 10 years is be able to say, look, like all people everywhere have a right to this form of knowledge and to be able to interact with it as they choose.
And trying to limit some people from being able to have access to that like is inherently and fundamentally wrong because it turns out like if a kid is brilliant and he has access to one of these things, he can make discoveries that will affect and help all of humanity.
And if they're restricted from it, well, nothing will ever become of them.
So, yeah, I just want to kind of encourage everybody to, like, think about this in big ways.
Challenge yourself to consider what and how we could change the world.
And I don't know, maybe it's time that we actually try to talk to Marty Bent about this.
Is that, like, maybe on the 250th anniversary of the American independence,
maybe we should try to find an orange party and its principles
and, like, substantiate that in a meaningful way to then carry forward.
It's a fun idea.
I'm a big ideas guy, not so much on the execution side.
Well, I mean, you can count me in.
And we already know, you know, we've got Hoddle in.
We'll opt him in since he's not here as well.
Eric, I've kept you for a while now, and I appreciate you running solo.
Where can people go to find out more about Vora, by the way,
for anybody who was listening and was like, yeah, that sounds fucking awesome?
Yeah, go to Vora.io.
You can sign up for what's going to eventually become
sort of our launch for pre-sales.
We're hoping to get that out by the end of Q2.
We'll kind of see how development happens.
If you're interested in my own work,
you can follow me on Twitter.
It's just my name, Eric Kaysen.
Or you can find me on Noster as well.
And if you're interested in my philosophy,
I have a book called Crypto Sovereignty.
You can find most of the writings at cryptosoveignty.org as well.
and shout out to all the folks who did join on noster and who zapped some sats as well
appreciate you all we are living in the future already here on noster it's just not even
distributed yet eric thank you man i always i always appreciate these uh these sessions with
you i always leave hating the state just a little bit more but also a little bit more bullish on
humanity so cheers cheers indeed fuck the state for anybody who uh was waiting for me to say that
I couldn't.
There we go.
We made it right to the end.
So.
All right.
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast.
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