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Our jaws dropped when we found this information out, right?

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And the reason you have this reaction, which is a normal reaction to have,

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is because you think the justice system has anything to do with justice, but it doesn't.

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The justice system has nothing to do with justice.

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It has nothing to do with truth.

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We like to think that the prosecutor's office is a noble office,

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and the role of the prosecutor is to find out the truth.

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But that is not the case.

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The prosecutor's only role is to take down the person that they've put the target on, no matter what.

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No matter what.

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Even if the person is innocent.

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That is inconsequential to the prosecutor.

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The prosecutor says, we painted you with the target, therefore you're guilty, and we're taking you down.

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I look to my lawyer and I go, we're going to get railroaded here.

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There's no way we're getting a fair trial here.

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she's going to make sure the jury can't do anything but convict us.

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And when that happens, she's giving us 25 years.

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If you don't take the deal, if you get convicted,

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not only will you spend 25 years in federal prison,

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but when you're out, you'll be responsible for paying $237 million

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in restitution to the government,

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which is essentially saying we're giving you a life sentence.

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They send some poor schlub FBI agent out into the street of Manhattan to pull out his cell phone, install samurai wallet on it, make a transaction with it.

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And then they say, we have jurisdiction now because a crime occurred.

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I think one of the most powerful things in our case in trying to get a pardon from President Trump is he also has experience with the justice system.

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He also has been impacted by the Southern District of New York.

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So he knows this type of information coming that I'm telling you today that you're surprised by would not surprise the president.

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He's seen it firsthand.

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So all we need to do is get it in front of him, because if it's in front of him, he will recognize it.

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He will see it. And he is a fair minded person who wants to see justice.

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And I think a pardon would be not only possible, but likely.

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We just have to get it in front of him.

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Keone, I wish we were talking under better circumstances.

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I wish this was a happier time, but it's not.

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You are scheduled to go to prison on December 19th.

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Bill, I think slightly after that, it's kind of down to the wire.

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Thank you for taking the time to come talk.

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I'm really honored to be talking to you.

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And I'm, first of all, I just want to say, I'm sorry for what you were going through.

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I think it's a miscarriage of justice in the United States of America.

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And honestly, I hope that it is rectified because if not, it will be a national shame

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on our part.

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Yeah, I appreciate that.

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Thank you very much.

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You know, it's coming down to the wire now, but I'm trying to do everything I can to get

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the story out there so that I know I can tell myself, hey, I did everything I could.

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I talked to as many people as I could.

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I shared the story and hopefully, even if it doesn't happen right away, hopefully the message

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gets to the right people. Yeah. And that's what I would say for anybody who is, who is tuning in

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right now. And I'm going to continue repeating this message throughout because you never know

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when somebody might tune in. If you have the ear of anyone or any contacts within the Trump

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administration that you can reach out to and somehow get this in front of Trump, please do so.

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Like you, you never know what, what text, what phone call may make a difference.

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And you, uh, right now we're talking about two open source software developers going to prison, uh, for, uh, a number of years for writing open source software, uh, or never having control of any customer funds.

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Uh, we can, we can get into all of that, but like, really, I would just say, if you're listening to this and you have any way to get in touch with anyone, please, please take that opportunity because it could, uh, it could make a real, real meaningful difference.

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So with that said, I want to set the stage a little bit.

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Maybe I think it's important for people to understand the why of why you guys were operating

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Samurai for 10 years with no issues.

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What made you want to build this tool, build this solution for people?

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Why was this important to you guys in the first place that you've been operating this

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thing for 10 years prior to this miscarriage of justice taking place?

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Yeah, you know, you have to kind of go back to pre-Bitcoin times for me, right? I was like 20 years old when the economy crashed in the Great Recession. That kind of showed me that there's something wrong with our money, right?

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I watched bankers get bailed out and everyday average people get slammed.

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So I knew something was wrong with the system that early on.

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And I didn't go quite the direction of Occupy Wall Street.

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Like our politics didn't align.

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But I understood what they understood, that something's wrong.

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And so what I ended up getting more into is gold and silver as a hedge against inflation, as a hedge against bailouts and bank account haircuts to pay for the bailouts.

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And what gold and silver represents essentially is an early version of what I saw Bitcoin as.

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Right. So you have a self-sovereign type of money.

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You have a money that is, there's no third party in between, right?

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There's no federal reserve.

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There's you and the precious metal and a censorship resistant form of money.

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So that's where my headspace was at before I really knew about Bitcoin.

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So when I did finally discover Bitcoin in 2012, it was illuminating, right?

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It was like, oh, this is like a digital version of the best aspects of gold and silver.

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It's a digital version that can't be censored where there's no financial institution in the middle of it.

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And it's self-sovereign.

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So I got in so incredibly engaged in Bitcoin at that time that for those reasons.

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and I got so engaged that I said, I need to get my hands on this stuff.

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And it wasn't so easy like it is today.

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There isn't ETFs and there isn't stock equivalents

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and there isn't really that many exchanges.

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You had Mt. Gox and I knew that was kind of sketchy

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before anything even happened.

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I could tell that was a sketchy place.

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So how do you get Bitcoin?

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Well, the only real reliable ways are to mine it. And I didn't have that kind of capital to get invested in that or to earn it or to trade for it. And I chose to earn it. So I started working at blockchain.info. Now it's called blockchain.com.

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they had a non-custodial web wallet and I was going to work on their wallet and bring it to

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mobile and develop that product further. And that's what I got hired. I was earning my salary

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in Bitcoin. So I finally was a part of this economy that I was so into. At blockchain.info,

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I met my partner, Bill, who's co-defendant in this case. He was like the seventh employee

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they hired. I was the eighth employee and we got on like a house on fire. You know,

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we had the same exact view of what Bitcoin should be, which is censorship resistant digital cash,

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right? And a digital analog to cash in your pocket. And we worked together at blockchain.info

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from around 2013 to 2015 or 2016.

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And by 2015, things started to change in the industry.

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And the focus no longer was on self-sovereign digital cash

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in the sense of censorship resistance.

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It was more on scaling.

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And it was more on inviting financial institutions,

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inviting Wall Street, getting VCs involved. And that's fine and good, but we were not convinced

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that Bitcoin was ready yet because of the privacy problem that we identified. Now, if you want

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censorship-resistant cash, you need privacy. You can't have censorship resistance without it.

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And by that time, it was clear that privacy wasn't going to be baked in at the protocol level. Bitcoin wasn't going to be a Monero type of currency. The protocol developers were clear about that.

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So we had a couple of options. Do we fork off, go do Bitcoin Cash or something else? Do we go to Monero and work on that stuff? Or do we stay on Bitcoin and build software and write code to make Bitcoin what we want it to be?

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And that's ultimately the option we chose. We wanted to make Bitcoin more private for everyday users who needed to transact on Bitcoin, primarily us.

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We're earning in Bitcoin. We have to pay rent. We have to buy groceries. We have to do a lot of transacting on Bitcoin.

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And when you have to do a lot of transacting on Bitcoin, you very quickly see the privacy problems of a transparent blockchain.

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So that's why we decided to build Samurai,

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to build a wallet that we needed to use and we wanted to use.

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And I mean, first of all, you guys built a product that, again,

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operated for 10 years.

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I don't know if you guys even know how many users,

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but I mean, a massive amount of users.

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It was a very beloved product because it gave people something that they wanted,

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which was the ability to improve their privacy.

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And I think that it's frustrating that we're at this point in time

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where things that were just kind of givens before the digital age,

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like, yeah, you should just be able to have private conversations

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and private transactions with cash, and nobody needs to know about it.

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Certainly the government doesn't need to know about it.

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In the digital age now, that presumption has just kind of gone out the window.

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The would-be totalitarians believe they should just be able to watch everything you do

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and stop you from doing it if they don't want to.

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And if you do manage to do it, they'll throw you in jail, right?

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And, you know, prosecute first and ask questions later.

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But privacy is such a fundamental thing.

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It's the cornerstone of everything else that we have, right?

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This is the baseline of our freedoms is the ability to do things privately.

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And so, I mean, did you guys have any interactions with law enforcement

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or with prosecutors prior to basically getting your doors kicked down?

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I mean, was there any, did they ever, you know, come to you guys early or do any investigation, anything like that?

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Or was this kind of like, was this really out of the blue for you guys?

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It was out of the blue.

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Yeah, we had never had any sort of correspondence, phone call, letter, email, anything from law enforcement agents.

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You know, we, like you said, we had operated for 10 years or nearly 10 years.

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We were operating under Obama's administration.

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We are operating under Trump's first administration and we are operating under Biden's administration.

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And it was under Biden's administration that suddenly something changed.

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Right. Something that we didn't change. We were doing the same stuff.

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Right. We were building the same type of tools. We didn't change architecture.

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We never took custody. We you know, there were certain red lines that we had internally.

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Like we don't want to take custody and we don't want to become a financial institution.

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We don't want to be a bank. Right. We want to be software. So nothing on our end changed. Something changed in the Department of Justice. Something changed in the administration, Biden's administration.

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And that culminated on April 24th, 2024, with 50 armed FBI agents, armored vehicles, drones, the whole nine yards, raiding my property, simultaneously raiding Bill while he was in Portugal, simultaneously seizing our servers, which housed our code repositories and our email server and wallet server.

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anything we had was seized all in one operation. So this was like a big, you know, a big thing.

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And to your point, all they really had to do was either call me or call Samurai's lawyer. We had a

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lawyer who was known, right? It wasn't like some hidden guy. He was out there and known. All they

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had to do was contact him and say, we think your client's breaking the law or we're investigating

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your client and we want him to self-surrender. And I would have. I'm not a lawbreaker. I'm not

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a fugitive. I would have gone and surrendered and started the legal process. We didn't have to have

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a militarized raid. Sorry, did you say 50-5-0? 5-0, yeah. I mean- It was a swarm.

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I'm sorry, but just as a taxpayer, that just feels like a gross misuse of taxpayer resources

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to send like this they weren't you know it's like i don't know that they think they were trying to

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raid ruby ridge or something and you know take out another set of it was crazy i mean and like

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the the armored vehicle what was that for i live in a small rural town you know like there's what's

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the armored vehicle for uh and what why do you need the drones and you know all the guns pointing

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at me and my wife i have no criminal history i have no history of violence um the crimes i'm

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accused of are white collar crimes with no victim. So what's, what's all of this show about?

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And that's really what it was. It was a show. It was theatrics.

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I mean, it's just, it's just really gross, to be honest with you. Like that's just,

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it's a disgusting way to treat a law abiding citizen. Cause I think that is what you are

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ultimately is a law abiding citizen who created a product that people really liked again, to

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emphasize this for people, you guys didn't have control of any user funds. Like you were not,

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and maybe, maybe it's worthwhile to just explain the difference between how you guys architected

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your solution at Samurai and what people may think of as a typical, you know, mixing services,

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because I think a lot of that often got lost in some of the mainstream media coverage of this and

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everything else. It was all lumped together. So can you, can you give us the breakdown of what

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was the differentiator there for you guys? Yeah, absolutely. That's a great question.

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So let's start by describing a traditional Bitcoin mixer and what the purpose of that Bitcoin mixing is and how they do it.

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Right. So the purpose of a Bitcoin mixer is to break the link between this Bitcoin and this Bitcoin.

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Right. It's the same Bitcoin, but this one, you don't want the history attached to it.

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So it's breaking the links of the past history from the future activity of a Bitcoin.

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That's why people mix, right?

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So for example, you have this Bitcoin and the person who had it before you did something

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bad with it.

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And you don't want to be associated with that bad behavior, right?

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So you mix that Bitcoin so that when you get it back, that bad behavior, that history of

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bad behavior is gone, right?

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That's why people would mix.

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how they would mix traditionally was I have this Bitcoin and I send it to the mixer.

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It leaves my wallet and enters the wallet of the mixer. And I am hoping that the mixer is

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legitimate and will send me a Bitcoin back that's unconnected. So there's a key aspect

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that's happening here. I have the Bitcoin, then I don't have the Bitcoin. Someone else has the

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Bitcoin. And then hopefully someone else sends me back the Bitcoin. That's a traditional mixer.

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So the key aspect of that is I'm giving up custody and control. I'm giving that custody

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and control to someone else. What we were able to do in Samurai Wallet was entirely what we call

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non-custodial, meaning the user never gives up custody of their Bitcoin. They have a Bitcoin

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and they go through a process that's really not even called mixing. It's just kind of a term people

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use in a general colloquial sense. But it's really a collaborative transaction. By joining

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other people who want the same benefit, want to break the past history from the future activity,

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By joining in a transaction together, you effectively get the same outcome, right?

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You get privacy, you get confusion on the blockchain that stops you from being able to determine what the past history was.

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But in our solution, you never had to give up custody.

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So in the traditional solution, I send the Bitcoin out.

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Now I don't have it.

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In this solution, in Samurai's solution, I have the Bitcoin in this hand and I move it to this hand.

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it's always been on me. It's always been in my custody and my control. It's never left my wallet.

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It goes from one address I control in my wallet to another address I control in my wallet.

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That's a big piece of the puzzle. It's an important piece of the puzzle. We thought

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that was what made Samurai Wallet lawful. This is what the regulator said was important.

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You know, and we thought we were in the clear and we were in the clear for 10, almost 10 years until suddenly we weren't.

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I think it's worthwhile to to maybe talk about said regulator, because in fact, it's not just that you guys thought you were in the clear.

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The regulator in question, FinCEN, actually confirmed you guys were in the clear.

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You were not operating a, quote, unlicensed money transmitter business.

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this was, of course, this fact was hidden from you guys for how long do they sit on that? Six

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months or something? Can you talk about that a little? Because when I heard this, I was like,

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you've got to be kidding me. I mean, how is this not somehow grounds for dismissal? I'm not a

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lawyer, but this just seemed insane to me. It certainly is grounds for dismissal. But yeah,

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so let's get into that. So the regulator in charge of money transmission and combating illicit

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finance is a it's called FinCEN, the Financial Crime Enforcement Network. It's a part of the

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Treasury Department of the United States. This is their this is their sole responsibility,

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money transmission and combating illicit finance. FinCEN is one of the only regulators

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that gave real common sense guidance early on in Bitcoin. Right. They were tasked to determine

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how Bitcoin fits into anti-money laundering and money transmission activities. In 2013,

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this is early stuff, and they have common sense response. They say in 2013,

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in order to be a money transmitter as defined by us, as defined by FinCEN,

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you have to have custody and control of the funds, right? Because how can you transmit something

220
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you've never had? How can you, you know, it's common sense. So everyone in the space in 2013,

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lawyers in the space, builders in the space, all understood that. In order to be a money service

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business, you have to take custody. And if you become a money service business, you have rules

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to follow. You have the Bank Secrecy Act to follow. You have to do anti-money laundering checks.

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You have to do know your customer checks, KYC, know your customer checks.

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So for example, an exchange like Kraken or Coinbase, they take custody.

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They are clearly a money transmitter.

227
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They are clearly a money service business.

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They have to do all of the things that a money service business has to do.

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In 2019, they again give guidance.

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They say, yes, we were right the first time.

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In order to be a money service business, in order to be a money transmitter, you have to actually have the money to transmit.

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But they added something in 2019.

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They added the concept of an anonymity service provider or an anonymity software provider, right?

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And they said in black and white, if you are an anonymity software provider, such as a Tumblr or a mixer,

235
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you are not a money transmitter unless you take custody of the funds. It couldn't be more clear.

236
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So we launched Whirlpool, our CoinJoin implementation in 2019 after this guidance

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had come out, making it explicit we weren't breaking the law. And we thought we were on

238
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the right side of things. We had a lawyer who thought we were on the right side of things.

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The entire industry thought we were on the right side of things. Even if they didn't like

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coin mixing, right? And there's plenty of people in the industry who didn't like coin mixing said,

241
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oh, you're going to be mixing your coins with criminals, or you're going to be doing, you know,

242
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whatever. But none of them said what that was doing was illegal, because the guidance was so

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clear. So fast forward to April 2024, we get the raid, we get charged with unlicensed money

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transmission and money laundering. Those are the two charges conspiracy to commit those crimes.

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And in my head, I'm thinking at first, like, oh, they must have made a mistake. They must think we're a custodial mixer. You know, this will be easily resolved. Then I find out, oh, they know you're not custodial. They put it in the indictment. They are non-custodial. And so I'm like, okay, that's weird. I guess we're going to have to fight this out in court.

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and we go through a year of discovery process,

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a year for the government to give us their evidence

248
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they have against us.

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And your listeners may not know this,

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but in a criminal trial,

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the government is required to hand over all evidence,

252
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even if it's evidence that is good for you, right?

253
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So if it's called exculpatory evidence,

254
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they have to give it to you without you asking

255
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,600
because you may not know what to ask for, right?

256
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:28,040
So this is called the Brady rule in criminal procedure that the government has to give you this stuff.

257
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Well, the government didn't give us something and we found out about it.

258
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And when we found out about it, we asked them specifically to give it to us.

259
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So we found out that the government six months before indicting us and raiding us six months before they had actually gone to the regulator and they asked the regulator is Samurai Wallet doing something illegal Are they a money service business Are they transmitting without a license And FinCEN responded no they don take custody So we don consider them a money transmitter The government had this

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information six months before indicting us. And instead of, you know, doing the honorable thing

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and saying, oh, I guess, you know, the regulator in charge of money transmission says they're not

262
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doing anything wrong. Let's leave it there. They charge us anyway with unlicensed money transmission.

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And then they hid this email from us for a year, which is a Brady violation. So yeah, that was,

264
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that's just one small thing of this whole case that is messed up.

265
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Just listening to that, I don't see how anybody could listen to what you just said

266
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and think that somehow justice has been served.

267
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This seems like a gross miscarriage of justice.

268
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This seems honestly just predatory.

269
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It seems like this was targeted.

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It seems like whether they were trying to make an example out of you guys

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because you were clearly non-custodial, clearly.

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They literally had the information that the regulator in charge of this,

273
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who they were going to try and charge you underneath, basically said,

274
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no, these guys are good.

275
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and yet somehow they still went forward with this.

276
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I can't understand how that was greenlit all the way down.

277
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I mean, how does that even happen?

278
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How does that happen that you go to the regulator in charge

279
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of regulating the people you're trying to prosecute

280
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and they say, nope, they're good, they're not breaking any laws,

281
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and then you go and charge them with that anyway?

282
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It just, it literally, I'm, my mind is just like, is blown by this because it's just, it's just fucking insane, frankly.

283
00:25:38,718 --> 00:25:52,958
Yes. Our jaw has dropped when we, when we found this information out. Right. And the reason you have this reaction, which is a normal reaction to have is because you think the justice system has anything to do with justice, but it doesn't.

284
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The justice system has nothing to do with justice. It has nothing to do with truth.

285
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We like to think that the prosecutor's office is a noble office, and the role of the prosecutor is to find out the truth.

286
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But that is not the case. The prosecutor's only role is to take down the person that they put the target on, no matter what.

287
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No matter what, even if the person is innocent. That is inconsequential to the prosecutor.

288
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The prosecutor says, we painted you with the target, therefore you're guilty and we're taking you down.

289
00:26:26,378 --> 00:26:34,278
Even if we have to stretch the truth, even if we have to hide exculpatory information, even if FinCEN, who's in charge of money transmission, says you're good.

290
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What does FinCEN know?

291
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They're not the Department of Justice.

292
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We are.

293
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And that's just, and it's not even unique to my case.

294
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You know, I wish it was.

295
00:26:44,038 --> 00:26:51,418
this has happened in almost every federal criminal trial, every, especially white collar.

296
00:26:52,038 --> 00:26:58,018
And if you talk, I've talked to so many people who have been impacted by the Justice Department

297
00:26:58,018 --> 00:27:02,938
in this country, you know, they reach out to me and they tell me like, this happened to me too.

298
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I know what you're talking about, you know, and it's comforting to actually speak to these people

299
00:27:08,138 --> 00:27:13,258
because thank God you haven't been impacted by the Department of Justice. And I hope you never

300
00:27:13,258 --> 00:27:19,318
are, you couldn't possibly know. So when we're talking, this is shocking to you. But when I talk

301
00:27:19,318 --> 00:27:24,518
to someone else who's been through this, it's not shocking. It's like a therapy session where we

302
00:27:24,518 --> 00:27:31,558
are telling each other, you know, what they did to us. And we understand it on a truly human level,

303
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because it's the same story over and over again. The Justice Department is not about justice.

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00:27:38,978 --> 00:27:46,158
it's not about truth. And, you know, I'm hoping that I can get that message across doing all of

305
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these interviews, because it's, it's, you know, it's really not a Bitcoin related thing. The

306
00:27:51,998 --> 00:27:58,758
prosecution in this case, obviously, was about Bitcoin and stifling a innovation and privacy

307
00:27:58,758 --> 00:28:05,098
they really didn't like. But besides that, it's the same strategy, lie in the indictment,

308
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stretch the truth, take things out of context, you know, um, hide information. And it just happens

309
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all the time in this country. I mean, it's like it, it should make any,

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any reasonable person's blood boil to hear this. And it's honestly, it's, it's even more sad that

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like you talk to people who have gone through this and they're like, Oh yeah, that, that,

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00:28:28,278 --> 00:28:33,678
that sounds about right. Like, dear Lord, like the problem being so widespread that this is just

313
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par for the course is disgusting to me. And I would ask like, again, I'll pause for a second

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to say, if anybody happens to be listening to this, who happens to have any connections,

315
00:28:41,938 --> 00:28:46,858
any way to get the ear of anybody even remotely close to Trump, all it takes is the right phone

316
00:28:46,858 --> 00:28:50,938
call, the right text, the right, the right conversation. And you might be able to, to

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00:28:50,938 --> 00:28:56,058
change a couple of people's lives, Bill and Keone's who are currently waiting to go to prison. So I

318
00:28:56,058 --> 00:29:01,498
would just ask people like share this message, share, share anything that Keone is posting,

319
00:29:01,498 --> 00:29:05,058
share this stream if you feel like it get the message out there and if you have any personal

320
00:29:05,058 --> 00:29:11,938
contacts please use them because this is i i i'm if you're like me you're growing more and more

321
00:29:11,938 --> 00:29:17,358
enraged the more you hear about this because it's just it's just fucking insane and maybe it's

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00:29:17,358 --> 00:29:24,398
worthwhile going a little bit like why was this why was this uh indictment brought uh under the

323
00:29:24,398 --> 00:29:28,758
southern district of new york can you explain that because you guys weren't a new york company

324
00:29:28,758 --> 00:29:33,138
You weren't operating in New York. How does that even happen? How does the Southern District of

325
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358
00:33:08,278 --> 00:33:08,978
Well, they sure do.

359
00:33:09,118 --> 00:33:09,698
They sure do.

360
00:33:09,758 --> 00:33:10,978
They have a reputation for it.

361
00:33:11,698 --> 00:33:13,838
Yeah, we had no infrastructure in New York City.

362
00:33:14,158 --> 00:33:17,238
We had no employees in New York City.

363
00:33:17,618 --> 00:33:24,378
I hadn't been to New York City in a very long time, had never worked in New York City building

364
00:33:24,378 --> 00:33:27,638
Samurai Wallet, didn't write one line of code for Samurai Wallet in New York City.

365
00:33:27,738 --> 00:33:29,778
So yeah, how do they have jurisdiction over this case?

366
00:33:30,178 --> 00:33:31,918
Well, we know exactly how they did it.

367
00:33:32,198 --> 00:33:37,538
So they sent some poor schlub FBI agent out into the street of Manhattan to pull out.

368
00:33:37,578 --> 00:33:42,978
his cell phone, install Samurai Wallet on it, make a transaction with it. And then they say,

369
00:33:43,078 --> 00:33:50,278
we have jurisdiction now because a crime occurred. So I have to back up.

370
00:33:50,278 --> 00:33:52,598
Wait, did they actually do this? Like this is confirmed?

371
00:33:52,778 --> 00:33:58,858
Yeah, yeah. This is confirmed. So the government's theory is that one, Samurai is a financial

372
00:33:58,858 --> 00:34:04,458
institution, right? That's where everything starts. Samurai Wallet is not just software.

373
00:34:04,458 --> 00:34:10,178
It's not just non-custodial software. It's a financial institution. And as a financial institution,

374
00:34:10,758 --> 00:34:16,098
Samurai Wallet has an obligation to do anti-money laundering and know your customer checks,

375
00:34:16,439 --> 00:34:20,898
right? I'm sure some of your listeners have installed a self-custodial wallet, maybe Blue

376
00:34:20,898 --> 00:34:27,538
Wallet, maybe Sparrow, maybe Edge Wallet, you know, something like that. None of those wallets

377
00:34:27,538 --> 00:34:33,718
ask for ID or your, you know, register with us or your email, none of them, because it makes no

378
00:34:33,718 --> 00:34:38,979
sense. It's just a piece of software letting you manage your private keys. That's what a wallet is,

379
00:34:38,979 --> 00:34:45,618
right? But the Southern District of New York said, Samurai Wallet isn't just a wallet. It's

380
00:34:45,618 --> 00:34:51,058
a financial institution like an exchange, like Coinbase, like your bank. And because it's a

381
00:34:51,058 --> 00:34:57,358
financial institution and they aren't collecting KYC and AML information, just by depositing

382
00:34:57,358 --> 00:35:05,479
Bitcoin into the wallet, this FBI agent, just by him doing that, a crime had been committed by us

383
00:35:05,479 --> 00:35:13,999
because we didn't ask him for his ID and we didn't ask him for his identity, his AML and KYC

384
00:35:13,999 --> 00:35:20,999
information. So that was the underlying crime that gave them the jurisdiction to prosecute us.

385
00:35:20,999 --> 00:35:27,778
is that not like i mean maybe and again i'm just growing more enraged by the second here

386
00:35:27,778 --> 00:35:34,078
because if this happened with to you guys certainly this is common practice for them broadly if they

387
00:35:34,078 --> 00:35:40,959
want to be able to try a case in their jurisdiction but if that's the case i mean you're just literally

388
00:35:40,959 --> 00:35:45,278
you guys have been operating we're operating for almost 10 years again like over nine years

389
00:35:45,278 --> 00:35:51,258
and then in order to for they wanted to clearly make something happen so they get an fbi agent to

390
00:35:51,258 --> 00:35:55,058
go and download your wallet make a transaction new york which is it just sounds so incredibly

391
00:35:55,058 --> 00:36:00,459
stupid like that just like that just sounds so idiotic that that's like well we've got them now

392
00:36:00,459 --> 00:36:05,338
boys like look i got i mean what what are you even doing like you have nothing better to do

393
00:36:05,338 --> 00:36:10,618
than to try and go after open source developers who are creating non-custodial software i mean

394
00:36:10,618 --> 00:36:15,898
that is just insane like there are actual criminals out there violent criminals and instead of going

395
00:36:15,898 --> 00:36:20,758
after those people you're spending your time trying to literally find the uh justification

396
00:36:20,758 --> 00:36:27,038
to try a couple of open source developers in new york who have no relation to it whatsoever i mean

397
00:36:27,038 --> 00:36:36,278
that's just fucking nuts man like i was there ever at any point is there any way for you guys

398
00:36:36,278 --> 00:36:37,398
To push back against that?

399
00:36:37,558 --> 00:36:38,098
Or yeah, go ahead.

400
00:36:38,138 --> 00:36:38,318
Sorry.

401
00:36:38,878 --> 00:36:39,158
No, no.

402
00:36:39,218 --> 00:36:44,698
I was just saying you start to unravel how the whole system works because they do this

403
00:36:44,698 --> 00:36:45,138
all the time.

404
00:36:45,258 --> 00:36:47,018
They get the jurisdiction.

405
00:36:47,798 --> 00:36:50,118
Like with Bitcoin, they just had to do something a little different, right?

406
00:36:50,118 --> 00:36:55,198
They had to have some schlub come downstairs, stand in the street and download the app.

407
00:36:55,198 --> 00:37:00,758
But normally, like for normal wire, like wire fraud and stuff like that, their justification

408
00:37:00,758 --> 00:37:02,878
is, hey, man, this is Manhattan.

409
00:37:03,098 --> 00:37:03,939
This is New York City.

410
00:37:04,098 --> 00:37:06,138
All the wires come through our banks, right?

411
00:37:06,138 --> 00:37:18,999
So they'll grab somebody in Arizona who's never been to Manhattan because the parent bank that he used to send a check or do a deposit has their companies in Manhattan.

412
00:37:19,578 --> 00:37:21,499
So that's how they do it for traditional things.

413
00:37:21,898 --> 00:37:24,378
So for Bitcoin, they just said, well, how do we do that?

414
00:37:24,479 --> 00:37:28,038
Okay, we'll just send someone downstairs and download the app and make a transaction.

415
00:37:28,778 --> 00:37:33,578
So yeah, it's again, to reiterate what I just said, it's not about justice.

416
00:37:33,578 --> 00:37:34,439
It's not about truth.

417
00:37:34,439 --> 00:37:42,318
it's about getting the guy that they put the target on i mean this just leaves me a little

418
00:37:42,318 --> 00:37:46,979
bit speechless because it's just so insane i can only imagine for you guys actually living through

419
00:37:46,979 --> 00:37:51,979
this and being like what the fuck is going on here this doesn't make any sense okay so

420
00:37:51,979 --> 00:37:59,078
you guys don't hear anything basically you're you're operating this uh very uh well loved and

421
00:37:59,078 --> 00:38:03,098
used and appreciated service for almost a decade.

422
00:38:03,439 --> 00:38:07,018
You then get your doors kicked down by a great use of taxpayer dollars.

423
00:38:07,158 --> 00:38:11,178
They send in 50 agents and for some reason,

424
00:38:11,278 --> 00:38:12,858
an armored vehicle and drones,

425
00:38:12,979 --> 00:38:14,439
which I'm not sure why those are even,

426
00:38:14,558 --> 00:38:15,678
even necessary.

427
00:38:15,838 --> 00:38:18,758
I hope they had a pack of attack dogs with them to a bunch of German

428
00:38:18,758 --> 00:38:20,338
shepherds just around the thing out.

429
00:38:21,058 --> 00:38:21,499
Okay.

430
00:38:21,499 --> 00:38:22,338
So they do that.

431
00:38:23,078 --> 00:38:26,898
You guys then are realizing that you are in the shit essentially.

432
00:38:27,258 --> 00:38:28,078
But I mean,

433
00:38:28,078 --> 00:38:32,878
I assume again, you, you mentioned like, okay, we thought, look, this must've been a mistake,

434
00:38:32,959 --> 00:38:37,838
whatever. At what point did you realize, okay, they're going to like, they're going to keep

435
00:38:37,838 --> 00:38:42,459
going with this. Like, was there a point where you said, oh shit, for some reason, like you

436
00:38:42,459 --> 00:38:47,218
realized that this was just a screwed up situation that they were basically prosecuting unfairly.

437
00:38:47,218 --> 00:38:53,238
Like when, when was like the, the, oh shit moment. So the, the first oh shit moment,

438
00:38:53,238 --> 00:38:57,198
was when I got home that night after arrest, right?

439
00:38:57,218 --> 00:38:59,858
Because when I learned what the charges were,

440
00:39:00,178 --> 00:39:02,178
I was still in the holding cell

441
00:39:02,178 --> 00:39:04,098
or in the holding facility of the jail.

442
00:39:04,098 --> 00:39:10,338
I was shackled and I was taken to the court appointed attorney

443
00:39:10,338 --> 00:39:13,318
who was there to represent me in getting bail

444
00:39:13,318 --> 00:39:14,999
and getting home that night, right?

445
00:39:15,038 --> 00:39:16,419
Because I wasn't arrested in New York

446
00:39:16,419 --> 00:39:18,098
because I'm not in New York.

447
00:39:18,358 --> 00:39:20,499
I was arrested in the Western District of Pennsylvania.

448
00:39:20,999 --> 00:39:22,218
They don't know who I am.

449
00:39:22,218 --> 00:39:23,638
They have no charges against me there.

450
00:39:23,718 --> 00:39:26,678
They don't really care about me and they have no reason to keep me around.

451
00:39:26,838 --> 00:39:30,518
So they wanted me out of their, their possession on bail.

452
00:39:31,158 --> 00:39:37,939
So when I was sitting there talking to the court appointed attorney, she's the one who

453
00:39:37,939 --> 00:39:39,178
told me what the charges were.

454
00:39:39,338 --> 00:39:40,999
We were separated by glass.

455
00:39:41,118 --> 00:39:43,538
So I couldn't like read the indictment myself.

456
00:39:44,118 --> 00:39:45,878
She told me what the charges were.

457
00:39:45,919 --> 00:39:48,038
And that's when I was thinking, oh, this must be a mistake.

458
00:39:48,238 --> 00:39:51,078
You know, they think we're operating like we're custodial.

459
00:39:51,078 --> 00:40:15,278
But the point of that whole meeting wasn't to go through the charges because she wasn't going to defend me. It was to, hey, let's get you out on bail. And she was successful. She did a great job. You know, I've talked about it on another podcast, but the overwhelming feeling of relief when you meet the court appointed attorney for the first time, right?

460
00:40:15,278 --> 00:40:19,558
Because for the last five or six hours, everyone has been against you.

461
00:40:19,798 --> 00:40:20,919
Everyone's treating you like a criminal.

462
00:40:21,038 --> 00:40:22,778
You're standing there in shackles.

463
00:40:23,878 --> 00:40:26,939
You know, you're scum of the earth to every one of these people.

464
00:40:27,558 --> 00:40:31,419
And she's the first person you see who's on your side, right?

465
00:40:31,558 --> 00:40:32,979
Doesn't look at you that way.

466
00:40:33,298 --> 00:40:34,218
Wants to help you.

467
00:40:34,558 --> 00:40:36,038
And it's like an overwhelming feeling.

468
00:40:37,018 --> 00:40:38,698
So I was, she did great.

469
00:40:38,818 --> 00:40:39,459
She got me bail.

470
00:40:39,778 --> 00:40:43,658
That night when I got home, she gave me a copy of the indictment.

471
00:40:43,658 --> 00:40:50,558
and I read, I sat down and read it, that's when I knew that, oh, they know exactly how it works.

472
00:40:50,979 --> 00:40:55,959
They just don't care. They know exactly, you know, they know we're non-custodial,

473
00:40:56,318 --> 00:41:02,318
but they're going, they're contorting themselves to explain how we're a financial institution,

474
00:41:02,939 --> 00:41:10,039
right? And they're certainly contorting themselves to describe how we solicited crime,

475
00:41:10,039 --> 00:41:15,358
right so like i'm reading this in the indictment i'm going okay this isn't a misunderstanding

476
00:41:15,358 --> 00:41:21,039
this is a hatchet job um and we're gonna have to really defend ourselves here

477
00:41:21,039 --> 00:41:29,979
okay and i mean this the other thing here is obviously being prosecuted in this way i i assume

478
00:41:29,979 --> 00:41:34,898
that you guys have just been like bleeding money on lawyer fees and everything else because that's

479
00:41:34,898 --> 00:41:38,138
the other thing right they're just they're essentially they're trying to put you in as

480
00:41:38,138 --> 00:41:42,738
vulnerable a position as possible with the ultimate goal of forcing you to take a plea deal.

481
00:41:42,898 --> 00:41:47,058
Can you talk a little bit about the, the initial terms that they offered you? Cause I think a lot

482
00:41:47,058 --> 00:41:52,419
of people saw, Oh, the samurai, the samurai developers, they, they took a, you know, a plea

483
00:41:52,419 --> 00:41:55,439
deal. They, they look, they, they pled guilty and that's, you know, that's what gets the,

484
00:41:55,778 --> 00:41:59,098
it's like, that's what gets the headlines, right? Is, Oh, that, you know, they pled and it's like,

485
00:41:59,519 --> 00:42:03,598
well, yeah, but then you should have the context of what you guys were threatened with essentially.

486
00:42:03,598 --> 00:42:07,979
Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, sure. So the first part of the question is,

487
00:42:08,138 --> 00:42:18,499
the final bail conditions. So the bail conditions were a million dollars secured by my wife's

488
00:42:18,499 --> 00:42:25,638
property and my father's property and his 401k. And then it was also home incarceration,

489
00:42:26,178 --> 00:42:32,338
which means you can't leave the four walls of the house except to go to court. And

490
00:42:32,338 --> 00:42:53,358
And the third condition was I'm not allowed to speak to Bill. Can't speak to my co-defendant in the case without lawyers present. Speaking of lawyers present, as you made reference to, lawyers are expensive generally. But in Manhattan, they are the most expensive in the country.

491
00:42:53,358 --> 00:43:02,738
You know, we're talking on the low end, $1,500 an hour and on the higher end, $4,000 an hour easily.

492
00:43:03,058 --> 00:43:13,439
Right. And you just don't have one attorney working for you. You have one main attorney and then a couple associates, a couple paralegals, all in that range.

493
00:43:13,678 --> 00:43:18,138
So the amount of money you're spending to defend yourself is astronomical.

494
00:43:18,138 --> 00:43:35,338
So if I wanted to talk to Bill, my lawyer has to be there. Okay, that's $2,000 an hour. His lawyer has to be there. That's $2,000 an hour. That's a $4,000 an hour conversation. Right? So we're not talking that much. We can't. It's not practical.

495
00:43:35,338 --> 00:43:41,558
So yeah, the lawyer fees are very difficult to deal with.

496
00:43:41,999 --> 00:43:51,539
And they're made even more difficult by the other bail condition, which is you cannot make any cryptocurrency transactions directly or indirectly.

497
00:43:52,019 --> 00:43:53,818
So no transactions at all.

498
00:43:55,198 --> 00:43:59,598
I can't speak fully for Bill, but I think he's probably similar situation as me.

499
00:43:59,878 --> 00:44:01,338
I didn't have fiat.

500
00:44:01,539 --> 00:44:02,479
I didn't have cash.

501
00:44:02,479 --> 00:44:04,178
I had a very small amount.

502
00:44:04,178 --> 00:44:11,678
my entire net worth was in Bitcoin and it had been since 2012. Right. And that doesn't mean

503
00:44:11,678 --> 00:44:17,078
I had a lot of Bitcoin. Right. Just because I was early into Bitcoin doesn't mean I'm just

504
00:44:17,078 --> 00:44:21,758
one of these crypto whales. Right. I had to spend Bitcoin. I had to invest my Bitcoin into the

505
00:44:21,758 --> 00:44:27,098
building, the business. You know, so I wasn't sitting on a lot, but I was sitting on enough

506
00:44:27,098 --> 00:44:33,598
to get started with a legal team and I wasn't able to use it. Right. We had to it had to be

507
00:44:33,598 --> 00:44:41,898
So we had to find a lawyer who understood Bitcoin, who would accept Bitcoin, and who would accept Bitcoin eventually, right?

508
00:44:41,959 --> 00:44:43,278
Because couldn't pay him yet.

509
00:44:43,558 --> 00:44:46,158
So it was a very big challenge.

510
00:44:46,718 --> 00:44:51,298
We did find a lawyer at a great firm, and he was a great lawyer.

511
00:44:51,419 --> 00:44:52,578
He did a great job for us.

512
00:44:52,638 --> 00:44:53,698
Very happy with him.

513
00:44:54,238 --> 00:44:55,959
And, you know, he took a chance on us.

514
00:44:56,519 --> 00:44:58,598
He still really hasn't been paid fully yet.

515
00:44:58,598 --> 00:45:04,858
and I'm about $2.5 million in legal debt

516
00:45:04,858 --> 00:45:10,878
and about $1.3 million in debt to friends and family

517
00:45:10,878 --> 00:45:15,178
who have loaned me money to pay for some of these legal bills.

518
00:45:16,178 --> 00:45:20,678
So, I mean, financial ruin is not even saying enough.

519
00:45:20,678 --> 00:45:22,758
It's completely destroyed.

520
00:45:22,898 --> 00:45:25,298
My entire financial life is destroyed.

521
00:45:25,298 --> 00:45:32,198
man i just want to say again like i i'm i'm so sorry this is happening to you guys because it's

522
00:45:32,198 --> 00:45:36,398
just it's just fucked up and for anybody who does want to join if you're watching this live

523
00:45:36,398 --> 00:45:45,499
you can just go right now to bill and keone.org so b-i-l-l-a-n-d-k-e-o-n-n-e.org and there's a link

524
00:45:45,499 --> 00:45:51,198
to both the uh the change.org petition and also to donate unfortunately again you uh you can't

525
00:45:51,198 --> 00:45:55,678
donate in, in Bitcoin, which I'm sure a lot of Bitcoiners were, did they give a reason for that?

526
00:45:55,678 --> 00:46:00,238
Because that just seems like, just like an extra, like, well, let's just stick an extra knife in.

527
00:46:00,519 --> 00:46:04,758
Like what, what is even a, they didn't give any reason. They didn't give any reason. They don't

528
00:46:04,758 --> 00:46:09,698
have to, you know, they just, they just make the rule, the judge says it and you have to live with

529
00:46:09,698 --> 00:46:16,039
it. Right. Cause if you, if you don't live with it and you, you know, make a transaction and defy

530
00:46:16,039 --> 00:46:20,798
a court order, that's another charge. That's obstruction of justice. So, um, and, and, and

531
00:46:20,798 --> 00:46:26,238
it's actually considered bail jumping, even if you don't leave, um, and, you know, try to flee.

532
00:46:26,378 --> 00:46:31,898
If you violate a bail condition, that's bail jumping. And that's like another five years or

533
00:46:31,898 --> 00:46:36,539
something like that. So not even worth thinking about violating that condition. That's why we

534
00:46:36,539 --> 00:46:43,158
don't have a cryptocurrency option on there currently. Um, so, so, uh, just kind of getting

535
00:46:43,158 --> 00:46:49,039
into, you set the stage for it a little bit now, but the actual, what they tried to slap you with

536
00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:52,218
essentially to say, this is what we're going to hit you with. Can you, can you go into those

537
00:46:52,218 --> 00:46:56,539
details a little bit? Yeah. So let's, let's get into that. The plea aspect of things, because

538
00:46:56,539 --> 00:47:02,479
that's still at this point, even with these challenges we are fighting this, right? These

539
00:47:02,479 --> 00:47:09,138
charges are nonsense and we need to get the, these facts in front of the jury. So the jury can see how

540
00:47:09,138 --> 00:47:18,118
nonsense this is right excuse me um so we're still in that that state of mind and we find out about

541
00:47:18,118 --> 00:47:23,578
the fincen thing right this this brady information that the government didn't hand over this is a big

542
00:47:23,578 --> 00:47:27,898
deal and we want to talk to the judge about it right and the judge can do a lot of things with

543
00:47:27,898 --> 00:47:33,618
that information the judge could dismiss the whole thing if he found that it this was you know a

544
00:47:33,618 --> 00:47:50,257
willful act by the prosecution to withhold this Brady material this Brady information So we had a motion in front of the court to the judge We also had a motion to the judge to dismiss the indictment as a matter

545
00:47:50,257 --> 00:47:58,837
of law, right? And you write a large motion, like 25 pages, and you explain to the judge that even

546
00:47:58,837 --> 00:48:04,037
if everything the government is saying about us is true, that he should still dismiss the charges

547
00:48:04,037 --> 00:48:08,897
because they don't hold water. They don't hold up to the law that they're claiming to.

548
00:48:09,617 --> 00:48:15,857
And so we had that. We had the Brady motion. We had various other motions in front of the court.

549
00:48:15,857 --> 00:48:22,517
And we were told to come argue our motions on a certain date. Now, two days before that date,

550
00:48:22,997 --> 00:48:30,597
suddenly we get a new judge. And you don't understand how unusual this is. Normally,

551
00:48:30,597 --> 00:48:36,217
you get a judge and that judge is with you through the whole case. And even if you find like you're

552
00:48:36,217 --> 00:48:42,037
found guilty and you go to jail and there's some sort of issue while you're at jail and you need

553
00:48:42,037 --> 00:48:47,757
to see the judge again, you're seeing the same judge. That judge is your judge. So it's very rare

554
00:48:47,757 --> 00:48:53,937
to get a new judge. And we get a new judge. No one says why. It's not like the old judge is sick

555
00:48:53,937 --> 00:48:59,677
because he's still there and still hearing other cases. So we have a new judge and the new judge we

556
00:48:59,677 --> 00:49:05,677
have, it's not a great, it's not great for us, right? The new judge has a reputation. Judge

557
00:49:05,677 --> 00:49:11,977
Coates, her name is, has a reputation. She's very pro prosecutor. She was herself a prosecutor.

558
00:49:12,697 --> 00:49:17,897
And not only just any prosecutor, she was the top prosecutor in the Southern District of New York

559
00:49:17,897 --> 00:49:24,637
criminal division, which is the same division that's charging us. Not great. She also has a

560
00:49:24,637 --> 00:49:30,997
reputation for giving the max sentence possible on the crime. Right. So a lot of judges will show

561
00:49:30,997 --> 00:49:37,197
leniency if they believe that the defendant is remorseful, for example. A lot of judges look at

562
00:49:37,197 --> 00:49:43,157
all the facts and aspects of the case and maybe they go, well, 25 years really isn't appropriate.

563
00:49:43,157 --> 00:49:48,757
So maybe I'll give you 11 or something like that. Right. Not this judge. If this judge can do 25

564
00:49:48,757 --> 00:49:55,597
years, that's what she's doing. So all of these are not great for us, you know, to say the least.

565
00:49:55,997 --> 00:50:01,237
But we're still in the mind that we got to fight this because at trial, it's not really about the

566
00:50:01,237 --> 00:50:06,577
judge. It's about the jury. We need to get the jury on our side. And we feel like we have a

567
00:50:06,577 --> 00:50:15,597
pretty strong case. So now it's time to meet our new judge and argue our motions. Again, I just

568
00:50:15,597 --> 00:50:23,697
have to reiterate motion to dismiss the indictment, major motion in any criminal trial, and motion

569
00:50:23,697 --> 00:50:29,017
to basically compel the government to tell us what the heck was going on and why they didn't

570
00:50:29,017 --> 00:50:34,397
give us that FinCEN letter. The fact that they didn't give it to us is not in question.

571
00:50:34,657 --> 00:50:41,197
That is proved. They didn't give it to us. So we just want to know why. Who made the decision not

572
00:50:41,197 --> 00:50:45,137
to give it to us? And is there anything else they're not giving us? That's what we wanted to

573
00:50:45,137 --> 00:50:50,837
find out. We get in front of the judge. We're supposed to argue these motions. She gets on the

574
00:50:50,837 --> 00:50:57,197
bench, starts the proceedings, and she says, I've read the motions. She's, again, reiterating,

575
00:50:57,537 --> 00:51:03,517
she's been the judge in this case for two days, okay? And she has other cases. So maybe she spent

576
00:51:03,517 --> 00:51:09,637
an hour or two reading our motions and getting caught up with a year's worth of pre-trial

577
00:51:09,637 --> 00:51:17,217
preparation. She goes, I've read the motions. They're all denied. That was it. No argument.

578
00:51:17,477 --> 00:51:22,617
She didn't let us say our piece or the government say their piece. No argument whatsoever. Motions

579
00:51:22,617 --> 00:51:30,357
denied. She didn't write a opinion. She didn't say an opinion. Normally, if a judge denies or

580
00:51:30,357 --> 00:51:35,777
grants a motion, they write an opinion. And if they don't write it, they give a verbal opinion

581
00:51:35,777 --> 00:51:41,377
and give you some insight into their mind as to why they granted the motion or denied it.

582
00:51:41,697 --> 00:51:46,037
Say, I don't think it met the law or I think it didn't meet the law, whatever the case is.

583
00:51:46,337 --> 00:51:53,357
She didn't do any of that. It was just a one word, denied. That was the point of the oh shit moment.

584
00:51:53,917 --> 00:51:58,577
That right there, I look to my lawyer and I go, we're going to get railroaded here.

585
00:51:59,157 --> 00:52:05,577
There's no way we're getting a fair trial here. She's going to make sure the jury can't do anything

586
00:52:05,577 --> 00:52:14,877
but convict us. And when that happens, she's giving us 25 years. So at that point, it's when

587
00:52:14,877 --> 00:52:20,237
mindset shifted from let's fight this, let's go to the jury, you know, they're going to hear about

588
00:52:20,237 --> 00:52:24,357
the FinCEN letter, they're going to hear about our lawyer's advice, they're going to hear all the facts

589
00:52:24,357 --> 00:52:30,617
to, oh, she's not going to let us bring up FinCEN. She's not going to let us do an advice of counsel

590
00:52:30,617 --> 00:52:39,177
defense. She's going to make sure, you know, the jury has no true grasp of all of the information

591
00:52:39,177 --> 00:52:45,177
that's in this case. So that's when we started to think a deal is probably the best option here.

592
00:52:46,497 --> 00:52:53,197
Okay. Again, this just continues to get more insane. And so did they ever give a reason for

593
00:52:53,197 --> 00:52:58,577
their first judge needing to step aside? I mean, was there like a serious illness or something like

594
00:52:58,577 --> 00:53:05,497
that? Because otherwise, why would you do that? Correct. It's so rare in the federal system for

595
00:53:05,497 --> 00:53:10,497
that to happen. And we know the judge wasn't ill because he was still hearing other cases.

596
00:53:11,157 --> 00:53:18,577
He was still on the docket. So no one explained it to us. Our lawyers didn't know. Who knows what

597
00:53:18,577 --> 00:53:25,957
happened? There's just no way to know. And everything that happened in the courtroom or

598
00:53:25,957 --> 00:53:31,497
behind the courtroom in the judges chambers, you don't know. That's all honor system stuff,

599
00:53:31,597 --> 00:53:35,937
right? So the government, the prosecutors are not supposed to talk with a judge without the

600
00:53:35,937 --> 00:53:42,017
defense there, right? That's a rule, but it happens all the time, right? And the only way

601
00:53:42,017 --> 00:53:46,537
you would find out about it is if someone spills the beans. So it's all honor system.

602
00:53:47,477 --> 00:53:52,717
So who knows what happened and who spoke to who? Maybe a clerk in the old judge's office

603
00:53:52,717 --> 00:53:59,277
talked to a clerk in the prosecutor's office and said, hey, Judge Berman's thinking of dismissing.

604
00:53:59,997 --> 00:54:06,517
And who knows what chain of events that's sparked. So that's all speculation. There's no way of

605
00:54:06,517 --> 00:54:15,297
knowing. But what we do know is a change of judge mid-case after a year of pre-trial stuff

606
00:54:15,297 --> 00:54:22,577
is highly unusual. It just doesn't often happen. And I mean, again, this is just another one of

607
00:54:22,577 --> 00:54:27,997
those things where it, you know, uh, this is again, just speculation, of course, cause I don't want to

608
00:54:27,997 --> 00:54:32,777
get hauled into the Southern district of New York myself, but all of this just seems really fishy.

609
00:54:32,777 --> 00:54:38,437
Like it can't help, but seem really, it can't help, but seem extremely targeted. Um, and you

610
00:54:38,437 --> 00:54:43,137
know, personal while also being extremely impersonal, of course, it just, none of this

611
00:54:43,137 --> 00:54:48,657
actually adds up or passes basic, like basic muster when it comes to just, is this a logical

612
00:54:48,657 --> 00:54:53,797
chain of events here that you would expect to see like just time after time here. And then,

613
00:54:53,797 --> 00:55:03,137
so then when they actually, uh, like what was the, can you maybe frame the plea deal versus

614
00:55:03,137 --> 00:55:08,457
what would have been the worst case had this judge, in fact, you know, not allowed all this,

615
00:55:08,577 --> 00:55:11,817
this evidence to be submitted, not allowed you guys to bring up these different things to the

616
00:55:11,817 --> 00:55:15,557
jury. What was the worst case that you guys were looking at versus what you were ended up being

617
00:55:15,557 --> 00:55:21,437
forced to accept for the plea deal. Right, right. Yeah, I'll definitely get there. So we have this

618
00:55:21,437 --> 00:55:28,437
experience, right, where we're in this courtroom, I realize what's going on here. First time we've

619
00:55:28,437 --> 00:55:33,137
ever been in front of this judge. We've been going through this case over a year at this point, and

620
00:55:33,137 --> 00:55:37,797
we've never heard a deal offer from the government. We've never asked them for a deal.

621
00:55:38,717 --> 00:55:42,717
Like two days after this appearance, the government comes and offers us a deal,

622
00:55:42,717 --> 00:55:49,017
right we didn't go to them they came to us there's some some lawyer on twitter who's armchair

623
00:55:49,017 --> 00:55:53,077
quarterbacking this whole case who thinks he has some inside information that we went to them

624
00:55:53,077 --> 00:56:00,597
that didn't happen government came to us said do you want to do a deal now basically right uh so

625
00:56:00,597 --> 00:56:07,697
yeah uh so here was what they here's here's the offer you plead to money transmission conspiracy

626
00:56:07,697 --> 00:56:14,337
to commit money transmission, which is a five-year statutory maximum sentence, and we'll drop

627
00:56:14,337 --> 00:56:22,477
conspiracy to commit money laundering, which is a 20-year sentence. If you don't take that deal,

628
00:56:22,977 --> 00:56:29,797
we will ask the judge for the full 25 years if you get convicted. In addition to that,

629
00:56:29,797 --> 00:56:36,237
if you don't take the deal, if you get convicted, not only will you spend 25 years

630
00:56:36,237 --> 00:56:44,977
in federal prison. But when you're out, you'll be responsible for paying $237 million in restitution

631
00:56:44,977 --> 00:56:53,477
to the government, which is essentially saying we're giving you a life sentence, right? You won't

632
00:56:53,477 --> 00:56:58,957
have to spend your whole life in the prison, but when you get out, you still owe us $237 million.

633
00:56:59,537 --> 00:57:05,177
And you can't travel, you can't go anywhere, you can't do anything until that's taken care of.

634
00:57:06,237 --> 00:57:10,877
So that was tough, right?

635
00:57:10,957 --> 00:57:17,817
And then part of the deal was instead of $237 million, you can just pay us $6.3 million.

636
00:57:17,817 --> 00:57:24,997
And if you pay us the $6.3 million, then we'll consider the $237 million fully paid.

637
00:57:26,677 --> 00:57:28,057
How did they arrive at these numbers?

638
00:57:28,677 --> 00:57:29,937
Yes, I'm glad you asked.

639
00:57:30,577 --> 00:57:33,697
So there were several numbers that the government was working with.

640
00:57:33,697 --> 00:57:38,277
And these are found in the indictment. I don't know if they're accurate or true,

641
00:57:38,377 --> 00:57:44,857
because a lot of what was in the indictment wasn't accurate and wasn't true. So I have to assume just

642
00:57:44,857 --> 00:57:51,237
for this conversation that the numbers are true. So let's just do that. So the first number the

643
00:57:51,237 --> 00:57:59,857
government threw out is $2 billion. That number is the total, they say, that went through my software,

644
00:57:59,857 --> 00:58:07,357
that went through Bill and my software. They call it unlawful because their contention is that

645
00:58:07,357 --> 00:58:14,817
we were supposed to KYC and AML all of this money that came in and we didn't. So all the money's

646
00:58:14,817 --> 00:58:22,397
unlawful, right? $2 billion worth of Bitcoin, all unlawful. Then the second number they're working

647
00:58:22,397 --> 00:58:31,977
with is 237 million. This is the number they say of the 2 billion, this 237 million were the actual

648
00:58:31,977 --> 00:58:40,157
proceeds of crime. Some type of crime, whether it be guns, drugs, hacking, whatever, went through

649
00:58:40,157 --> 00:58:48,797
the software. And then the third number is 6.3 million. This is the number the government says

650
00:58:48,797 --> 00:58:56,397
we earned in fees over 10 years for running Samurai Wallet. So if we didn't take the deal,

651
00:58:56,917 --> 00:59:04,737
they're basically saying you're responsible for paying to the government $237 million

652
00:59:04,737 --> 00:59:12,837
in restitution because that's the number that was illicit. And the deal was instead of paying

653
00:59:12,837 --> 00:59:19,197
237 million that was illicit, you only have to pay us what you earned over 10 years of running

654
00:59:19,197 --> 00:59:24,637
Samurai Wallet, which was $6.3 million. That's where they got those numbers from.

655
00:59:26,517 --> 00:59:33,377
So again, just kind of like absurdities here in that, I mean, even the 6.3 number, that's like,

656
00:59:33,617 --> 00:59:37,877
it's a lot of money. And again, their whole assumption is that everything you guys did,

657
00:59:37,877 --> 00:59:44,037
every just the act of doing it was was all completely illegal even though it wasn't again

658
00:59:44,037 --> 00:59:48,677
even though fince again just to clarify even though this is all based on just incorrect

659
00:59:48,677 --> 00:59:54,777
premises from the start okay but going with what they said then i mean this is just is that even

660
00:59:54,777 --> 01:00:01,717
the precedence in other because we know that for example uh jp morgan chase deutsche bank hsbc

661
01:00:01,717 --> 01:00:07,197
every major bank in the world you name one of them they've paid hundreds of millions or billions

662
01:00:07,197 --> 01:00:13,757
of dollars in fines for money laundering, for drug cartels, for dictators, for all sorts

663
01:00:13,757 --> 01:00:16,237
of things, for Jeffrey Epstein, for example.

664
01:00:16,457 --> 01:00:21,097
I think JPMorgan Chase settled for $100-something million for that one.

665
01:00:21,457 --> 01:00:24,097
Presumably, the amount of money laundered was far larger than that.

666
01:00:24,857 --> 01:00:30,577
But are they even applying the same standard to you guys that they would apply to a financial

667
01:00:30,577 --> 01:00:34,317
institution, which again, they're trying to claim you are, so one would think they apply

668
01:00:34,317 --> 01:00:35,077
the same standard?

669
01:00:35,997 --> 01:00:36,157
Yeah.

670
01:00:36,157 --> 01:00:41,577
So, I mean, I think the way they thought about it is like, let's say we were an actual financial institution.

671
01:00:41,577 --> 01:00:42,757
Let's say they were right about that.

672
01:00:42,817 --> 01:00:44,637
And we were one because we took custody.

673
01:00:45,117 --> 01:00:45,257
Right.

674
01:00:45,317 --> 01:00:51,517
So their line of thinking is, well, you have 237 million that you're not supposed to have.

675
01:00:51,697 --> 01:00:52,097
Right.

676
01:00:52,137 --> 01:00:53,157
Because that's illicit.

677
01:00:54,117 --> 01:00:55,137
So give it to us.

678
01:00:55,137 --> 01:00:56,657
Even though you never had it, of course.

679
01:00:56,897 --> 01:00:58,897
But we didn't have it.

680
01:00:58,977 --> 01:00:59,097
Right.

681
01:00:59,097 --> 01:01:06,097
So like HSBC, when they launder a billion dollars for the cartels, they had it because they are a financial institution.

682
01:01:06,157 --> 01:01:34,157
They had the billion dollars. So the government goes in, finds out they don't raid the CEO of HSBC, by the way. Right. They called his lawyer and say, hey, we figured out what you guys are up to. You're bad boys. You know, like we're going to come and get our fine. They don't. No one goes to jail in that situation. Right. But they do. They go and say, you laundered a billion dollars. So you owe us a billion dollars and you have a billion dollars because you laundered it. Right.

683
01:01:34,157 --> 01:01:35,317
It was in your possession.

684
01:01:35,497 --> 01:01:36,357
Give it to us now.

685
01:01:36,557 --> 01:01:40,537
In our case, they knew we never had $237 million.

686
01:01:41,077 --> 01:01:46,277
There was never a time that we had that money because we never took anyone's money, right?

687
01:01:46,277 --> 01:01:47,477
We never transmitted their money.

688
01:01:47,537 --> 01:01:50,337
We never laundered their money because we never had their money.

689
01:01:50,757 --> 01:01:53,637
So the government knew that and they didn't care.

690
01:01:53,637 --> 01:02:00,737
And it was just a tactic to really screw us in the event that we go to trial and risk the 25 years.

691
01:02:00,837 --> 01:02:03,557
As if risking the 25 years was not enough.

692
01:02:04,157 --> 01:02:09,497
right? They had to add an additional thing and say, well, if you go to trial and you do lose,

693
01:02:09,497 --> 01:02:15,177
you're going away for 25 years. And then if you get out, right, Bill would be in his 90s

694
01:02:15,177 --> 01:02:22,177
by the time 25 years was over. If you get out alive, you still owe us $287 million.

695
01:02:23,717 --> 01:02:27,777
That's never going to be paid. I'm not going to be able to earn $287 million

696
01:02:27,777 --> 01:02:34,057
in this lifetime of mine. Sorry. That's just not going to happen. They know it.

697
01:02:34,057 --> 01:02:39,057
they knew we never had it. So then they offer the reasonable thing, right? The reasonable thing,

698
01:02:39,157 --> 01:02:45,537
which is, well, you just pay us the 6 million that you earned over the course of 10 years.

699
01:02:45,537 --> 01:02:50,817
I know it sounds like a lot, but in the grant, that's not profit. That's just revenue, right?

700
01:02:50,837 --> 01:02:58,977
We still had overhead. We had people to pay. We had whatever. So we obviously took the deal

701
01:02:58,977 --> 01:03:03,037
because the alternative was 25 years, $287 million,

702
01:03:03,477 --> 01:03:06,937
and almost guaranteed conviction, right?

703
01:03:06,977 --> 01:03:12,157
Why fight a fight that is so obviously skewed against you?

704
01:03:12,877 --> 01:03:14,737
You're just not going to win that fight.

705
01:03:16,577 --> 01:03:20,277
I mean, it's how kind of them to only slap you

706
01:03:20,277 --> 01:03:25,197
with the total gross revenue of your business over that time.

707
01:03:25,277 --> 01:03:27,557
That's just a gracious of them.

708
01:03:27,557 --> 01:03:31,577
I mean, it's right again. This is, this is all just, just patently absurd to me.

709
01:03:31,837 --> 01:03:45,137
And the fact that they were, they knew exactly what they were doing, of course, with the, uh, giving you that really mass 25 years plus an unfathomably large amount of money that nobody is obviously going to be able to pay.

710
01:03:45,137 --> 01:03:52,797
Like that is a life sentence, as you said. And for Bill, like quite literally so, given that he would be in his 90s.

711
01:03:53,677 --> 01:04:12,977
They know that that is such an insane stick to hold up that you're going to take the relative carrot instead, which is, OK, still go to prison, still pay millions of dollars for, again, something that was not unlawful in the eyes of the regulator who was in charge of regulating this.

712
01:04:12,977 --> 01:04:24,037
I mean, it's like it just all of it just seems so predatory and so targeted that I think that's what is just mind blowing about this case is it just.

713
01:04:25,097 --> 01:04:28,457
This is not how justice in America is supposed to work.

714
01:04:28,917 --> 01:04:40,237
This is not how a country that is that has the rule of law is supposed to treat its citizens and not just any citizen, but you guys were entrepreneurs and builders, developers.

715
01:04:40,237 --> 01:04:44,257
you were building tools that Americans and people all over the world,

716
01:04:44,257 --> 01:04:45,697
but like we're talking about America here,

717
01:04:45,697 --> 01:04:50,917
that Americans wanted and needed and loved to use like this.

718
01:04:51,017 --> 01:04:51,757
This is basic.

719
01:04:51,837 --> 01:04:52,877
This you built a,

720
01:04:52,877 --> 01:04:54,697
a freedom loving tool.

721
01:04:54,817 --> 01:04:58,117
You built a tool that is in line with the American ethos that,

722
01:04:58,197 --> 01:05:02,357
and then to take that and to punish you guys for it in the most grotesque way

723
01:05:02,357 --> 01:05:06,757
with all of these other massive question marks and red flags that are on the

724
01:05:06,757 --> 01:05:07,877
prosecution side.

725
01:05:08,457 --> 01:05:09,097
To me,

726
01:05:09,097 --> 01:05:09,777
it's like this,

727
01:05:09,777 --> 01:05:13,157
this is why I think people need to make as much noise about this as possible.

728
01:05:13,557 --> 01:05:17,357
Because if they can get away with this, if they can get away with doing this to you and Bill,

729
01:05:18,237 --> 01:05:23,717
they're not going to stop. And again, I would pause for a second and say to anybody who is

730
01:05:23,717 --> 01:05:28,417
listening and has any way to get in touch with anyone even remotely close to President Trump,

731
01:05:29,097 --> 01:05:34,777
do so. He's certainly throwing some pardons around now. And if he wants America to truly

732
01:05:34,777 --> 01:05:41,157
be the Bitcoin and crypto capital of the world. That will never happen if we are throwing developers

733
01:05:41,157 --> 01:05:48,157
in jail when they haven't actually broken any laws. That's never going to happen. You can't

734
01:05:48,157 --> 01:05:54,617
have it both ways. And maybe another thing worth noting on here, because there were some changes

735
01:05:54,617 --> 01:06:00,857
made during the Trump administration, right? Like with the Blanche memo and things. Can you talk

736
01:06:00,857 --> 01:06:05,037
about that a little bit? Because that's another piece to this where it's like, what's going on

737
01:06:05,037 --> 01:06:09,277
here? Why is this being ignored? Yeah. So I mean, like the Trump administration,

738
01:06:09,837 --> 01:06:15,457
one, talked a good game during the campaign season, but also started to deliver on their

739
01:06:15,457 --> 01:06:20,357
promises when he got elected, which is pretty unusual for a politician. And it's nice to see.

740
01:06:21,037 --> 01:06:25,877
Right. So he I think President Trump truly wants America to be the crypto capital.

741
01:06:25,877 --> 01:06:45,817
I believe he does. And one of the things that his deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche, did shortly after inauguration is write a memo. We call it the Blanche memo. It's also known as ending regulation by prosecution memo, right, which is exactly what's happening in this case.

742
01:06:45,817 --> 01:07:06,057
And it could not have been more clear. Todd Blanche said, the Department of Justice should not be charging the builders of software for the acts of their end users. And they specifically call out tumblers and mixers. And again, they focus on custody.

743
01:07:06,057 --> 01:07:11,377
you know if they don't take custody they're non-custodial or i think they use the term

744
01:07:11,377 --> 01:07:16,497
self-hosted or something along those lines but they mean non-custodial they're not money

745
01:07:16,497 --> 01:07:22,637
transmitters and they shouldn't be charged with 1960 charges which is what i was charged with 1960

746
01:07:22,637 --> 01:07:32,277
um so we saw this we're like this is great this is exactly what we were hoping for uh from the

747
01:07:32,277 --> 01:07:38,597
Trump administration and they're delivering on it. And, you know, I think that Todd Blanch and

748
01:07:38,597 --> 01:07:43,577
that main justice in D.C. under President Trump is trying to do the right thing.

749
01:07:44,277 --> 01:07:48,797
But what they don't understand is they have the Southern District of New York,

750
01:07:49,037 --> 01:07:54,817
which has a nickname, by the way, the Sovereign District of New York, because they don't think

751
01:07:54,817 --> 01:08:01,657
they answer to anybody. Right. They don't care what the attorney general has to say or what the

752
01:08:01,657 --> 01:08:07,817
deputy attorney general has to say. They're the premier attorney's office in the country. They're

753
01:08:07,817 --> 01:08:12,497
Manhattan. They can do what they want. And that's what they did. They ignored the Blanche memo.

754
01:08:13,337 --> 01:08:23,697
The way they got around it was changing the charge from a 1960 B1B, which B1B is

755
01:08:23,697 --> 01:08:30,097
unlicensed money transmission, to B1C, which wasn't talked about explicitly in the Blanche memo.

756
01:08:30,097 --> 01:08:40,717
He only talked about B1B to B1C, which is knowing that some proceeds that went through the money transmission business were connected to crime.

757
01:08:41,217 --> 01:08:43,877
Right. But it still assumes that you're a money transmitting business.

758
01:08:44,077 --> 01:08:46,217
It still assumes that part. Right.

759
01:08:46,297 --> 01:08:54,537
So the fact that they didn't originally charge this, but the fact that I knew it was possible for criminals to use the free and open source software I created,

760
01:08:54,537 --> 01:08:59,997
just like criminals can use Signal or Tor or VPN or whatever type of software.

761
01:08:59,997 --> 01:09:05,177
But because I knew it was possible for them to use it, now I was guilty of B1C.

762
01:09:05,537 --> 01:09:07,797
And that's how they got around respecting the Blanche Mellow.

763
01:09:09,237 --> 01:09:10,657
They're brilliant lawyers.

764
01:09:10,977 --> 01:09:11,697
Don't get me wrong.

765
01:09:11,797 --> 01:09:17,537
These guys in the Southern District of New York all went to Harvard and Yale, the best

766
01:09:17,537 --> 01:09:18,077
law schools.

767
01:09:19,177 --> 01:09:23,436
So they do crafty things and you have to kind of be impressed by it, right?

768
01:09:23,436 --> 01:09:29,197
Here's their boss, the deputy attorney general, and they're outmaneuvering him with legal tricks.

769
01:09:29,917 --> 01:09:30,797
This is what they do.

770
01:09:31,357 --> 01:09:33,157
So they disrespected the Blanche memo.

771
01:09:33,617 --> 01:09:45,697
They disrespected Trump's whole pledge about stopping these type of prosecutions and making Bitcoin or crypto, United States crypto capital.

772
01:09:46,337 --> 01:09:47,977
And they're just doing their own thing.

773
01:09:48,277 --> 01:09:50,177
So I really don't fault the administration.

774
01:09:50,797 --> 01:09:53,337
I lay fault with the Southern District of New York.

775
01:09:53,337 --> 01:10:05,237
It needs to be cleaned out, you know. And one thing we talked about a little earlier in this in this broadcast is how I will speak with people who have been impacted by the Justice Department.

776
01:10:05,357 --> 01:10:08,977
And we understand each other. Right. We know what each other have gone through.

777
01:10:09,357 --> 01:10:17,977
I think one of the most powerful things in our case in trying to get a pardon from President Trump is he also has experience with the justice system.

778
01:10:17,977 --> 01:10:22,217
He also has been impacted by the Southern District of New York.

779
01:10:22,217 --> 01:10:29,697
so he knows this type of information coming that I'm telling you today that you're surprised by

780
01:10:29,697 --> 01:10:36,457
would not surprise the president he's seen it firsthand so all we need to do is get it in front

781
01:10:36,457 --> 01:10:41,557
of him because if it's in front of him he will understand he will recognize it he will see it

782
01:10:41,557 --> 01:10:48,817
and he is a fair-minded person who wants to see justice and I think a pardon would be not only

783
01:10:48,817 --> 01:10:56,477
possible, but likely. We just have to get it in front of him. Yeah. I mean, and again, I think

784
01:10:56,477 --> 01:11:02,097
that's a, it's an important clarification there that this is, uh, you know, at this time, this

785
01:11:02,097 --> 01:11:08,197
isn't a failing of the administration specifically. It's like, you know, think what you will of Trump.

786
01:11:08,277 --> 01:11:11,977
You can have plenty of problems with it. He did, he did keep his promise about freeing Ross,

787
01:11:12,137 --> 01:11:15,797
right? Like credit where credit is. I fully believe you should call out politicians when

788
01:11:15,797 --> 01:11:17,377
when they do dumb stuff, and you should say,

789
01:11:17,377 --> 01:11:19,857
you did a good job when they do good stuff.

790
01:11:19,857 --> 01:11:20,697
Like I-

791
01:11:20,697 --> 01:11:21,737
And that was a good thing.

792
01:11:21,737 --> 01:11:24,117
That was an amazing, an amazing thing.

793
01:11:24,117 --> 01:11:48,995
Justice was righted there You know justice was I mean you can go back can erase the time that he spent rotting in prison but he back with his family now And that that is what matters And for you and Bill it like we have the opportunity President Trump has the opportunity to right this ship before you guys spend time in prison that you should not be spending there

794
01:11:48,995 --> 01:11:56,535
And I think it's a very important point there that he knows what lawfare is, right?

795
01:11:56,975 --> 01:11:58,355
He knows what it's like to be targeted.

796
01:11:58,975 --> 01:12:05,615
Everything you've said tonight about this case, everything that you've said, it all feels targeted.

797
01:12:06,015 --> 01:12:14,575
It all feels like prosecutors going above and beyond to find ways to skirt around the existing rules and law structures.

798
01:12:14,575 --> 01:12:16,775
And like you said, they're very clever, clearly.

799
01:12:16,775 --> 01:12:18,955
They're clearly excellent, excellent lawyers.

800
01:12:18,995 --> 01:12:27,815
I don't necessarily mean that as a compliment in this case because them being excellent lawyers involves them basically carrying out a miscarriage of justice.

801
01:12:28,115 --> 01:12:30,815
So like – and it just – it's like what are you doing then?

802
01:12:31,395 --> 01:12:33,175
What's your reason for existing?

803
01:12:33,275 --> 01:12:38,415
Is your reason for existing to put people behind bars who are trying to make tools that are pro-American?

804
01:12:38,615 --> 01:12:39,915
Because that's just fucked up.

805
01:12:40,595 --> 01:12:44,375
That is the reason to be – that is how they advance in the office.

806
01:12:44,375 --> 01:12:50,495
that's how they once they're done being a prosecutor they go on the campaign to be governor or a state

807
01:12:50,495 --> 01:12:57,155
senator or a representative and they said hey i had a 98 conviction rating i put away the bad guys

808
01:12:57,155 --> 01:13:02,395
uh so yeah they don't they don't get promoted and advanced in the office unless they're putting

809
01:13:02,395 --> 01:13:08,615
people behind bars so the incentive isn't like i said to find truth the incentive is to put people

810
01:13:08,615 --> 01:13:15,455
behind bars. And it's like, clearly they are good at doing that. I wish they would spend more time

811
01:13:15,455 --> 01:13:22,995
trying to put actual violent criminals behind bars. Yes. That would be nice. Of all of the

812
01:13:22,995 --> 01:13:28,695
crime that I allegedly laundered, all the proceeds of crime for all these bad criminals,

813
01:13:29,015 --> 01:13:35,855
not one of these criminals was apprehended. Not one. Right. They said there was drug traffickers,

814
01:13:35,855 --> 01:13:57,035
There was weapons traffickers. They said there was, you know, child sex material. There was hit men. There was all of these terrible things that I do not like. And as an American, I would want my law enforcement, my FBI to stop those things. But not one of those things, not one of the people that perpetrated those crimes was brought to trial. Not one of them.

815
01:13:57,035 --> 01:14:05,715
I was, and Bill was, and not one of those people in any evidence that the government has or shown

816
01:14:05,715 --> 01:14:10,855
had any conversation with me or Bill, right? We never talked to these people,

817
01:14:11,615 --> 01:14:18,135
had no idea who they were or that they were using Whirlpool. So it's a farce, right? You hit the

818
01:14:18,135 --> 01:14:24,875
nail on the head. You want crime, actual crime to be stopped. You want actual criminals to be

819
01:14:24,875 --> 01:14:34,955
punished. So do I. And that's not what they're doing. I mean, it's again, it's just insane to me.

820
01:14:35,675 --> 01:14:40,635
And I mean, there were so there were they they did not bring obviously, they couldn't get anyone to

821
01:14:40,635 --> 01:14:45,235
go on this, you know, go on the stand as a witness and say, Yep, I, I talked to Billy and Keone and

822
01:14:45,235 --> 01:14:49,975
the update, I said, I want to launder some Bitcoin. And they said, Yep, sounds good. Launder

823
01:14:49,975 --> 01:14:54,835
that Bitcoin with us. Like didn't happen. They didn't have any of that. No, no, no victims were

824
01:14:54,835 --> 01:15:00,195
named. This is like bringing similar to Ross's trial where no victims were named. Right. But you

825
01:15:00,195 --> 01:15:05,295
guys had none, none either. Right. So no victims, no victims, no witnesses to the alleged crimes.

826
01:15:05,615 --> 01:15:10,955
Correct. And they had all of our electronics. I mean, I truly believe again, that because the

827
01:15:10,955 --> 01:15:16,255
indictment was so light, like normally when you get an indictment, they go all out, right. They're

828
01:15:16,255 --> 01:15:19,815
going to show, they put all their best evidence in there because they're trying to get you

829
01:15:19,815 --> 01:15:27,455
indicted. And every lawyer we spoke to was like, this is a really light indictment. So what I think

830
01:15:27,455 --> 01:15:32,755
what they were trying to do was they looked at us and they said, these guys have to be guilty.

831
01:15:33,355 --> 01:15:38,615
There's no other way we can look. They have to be guilty. We may not have the smoking gun right now,

832
01:15:38,615 --> 01:15:44,135
but once we get all of their devices, all of their electronics, and we go through them,

833
01:15:44,135 --> 01:15:49,055
will find the smoking gun because they're obviously guilty. And that never happened.

834
01:15:49,435 --> 01:15:52,575
They had all of our electronics. They went through everything. They looked at all our

835
01:15:52,575 --> 01:16:00,475
messages. They have one message from me. In 2018, to a friend, this is before Whirlpool even exists,

836
01:16:00,475 --> 01:16:05,975
by the way. We haven't even built CoinJoin stuff yet. And I'm talking to a friend of mine

837
01:16:05,975 --> 01:16:10,775
who I went to elementary school with. He's not a criminal. He's just some guy I know.

838
01:16:10,775 --> 01:16:18,135
right and I told him in like 2015 or something I said hey you should buy some bitcoin right and

839
01:16:18,135 --> 01:16:25,055
he's not a technical guy he's very not technical in fact and he's asking me these questions like

840
01:16:25,055 --> 01:16:30,655
well what is a bitcoin and how does it work and you know what is an input what does this mean what

841
01:16:30,655 --> 01:16:34,115
does that mean and I'm getting kind of frustrated at this point and I really don't want to keep this

842
01:16:34,115 --> 01:16:39,255
conversation going anymore because I'm getting annoyed and he finally asked well what is coin

843
01:16:39,255 --> 01:16:47,855
mixing. Again, Whirlpool doesn't exist. And what is coin mixing is it's money laundering for Bitcoin.

844
01:16:48,315 --> 01:16:53,275
I said that to him. This is the big bombshell evidence in the government's indictment.

845
01:16:53,855 --> 01:16:59,035
It's money laundering for Bitcoin. They give that one sentence. But what they don't give

846
01:16:59,035 --> 01:17:04,595
is the several sentences afterwards where I'm explaining that why someone would want to use

847
01:17:04,595 --> 01:17:08,355
coin mixing, right? Because he shows some interest. So I'm like, okay, maybe I'll give

848
01:17:08,355 --> 01:17:14,135
you a little bit more than a flippant one word answer. And, you know, so I explained, well,

849
01:17:14,235 --> 01:17:18,935
if you want to protect yourself from criminals, and people who want to harm you, because they can

850
01:17:18,935 --> 01:17:23,315
see everything you're doing on the blockchain, you would use something like coin mixing, right?

851
01:17:23,335 --> 01:17:28,475
So I actually further explain what I meant. And they don't put that part in there, right? They put

852
01:17:28,475 --> 01:17:34,955
it's money laundering for Bitcoin. Chioni knew what he was building. It was. So this is what I

853
01:17:34,955 --> 01:17:40,695
I mean, you know, when I know the context of things, you don't and no one else does, but I do.

854
01:17:41,055 --> 01:17:49,535
And they're using this evidence, quote unquote, without any context to illustrate my intent.

855
01:17:49,955 --> 01:17:54,155
That piece right there, what I just described, was the worst evidence for us.

856
01:17:54,635 --> 01:17:55,835
That was their big bombshell.

857
01:17:56,695 --> 01:17:58,835
And it was like, it's easily explained.

858
01:17:58,935 --> 01:17:59,975
It's not that big of a deal.

859
01:18:00,835 --> 01:18:04,155
And again, it was in 2018 before Whirlpool even existed.

860
01:18:04,955 --> 01:18:11,855
and again, it's like context matters, right? Like I'm sure you could go through my texts and find

861
01:18:11,855 --> 01:18:16,255
some flippant things that I said in a couple of group chats where it would like, you take that

862
01:18:16,255 --> 01:18:20,635
out of context and it would probably look really bad for me in context. It may still look bad,

863
01:18:20,635 --> 01:18:25,175
but in this case, I think it's very clear. Like what you said was like, yeah, you're giving him

864
01:18:25,175 --> 01:18:28,395
a flippant answer. And then it's like, okay, like, let me, let me go a little deeper for this guy.

865
01:18:28,815 --> 01:18:34,275
Um, you know, he's an elementary school friend, but I mean, again, can I, I just get back to the

866
01:18:34,275 --> 01:18:42,215
fundamental idea that that from the start this case was just predicated on bullshit like this

867
01:18:42,215 --> 01:18:48,715
was just from the very beginning this was not uh this case should never have been brought right

868
01:18:48,715 --> 01:18:53,415
this should never and and once it was brought it should have been dismissed like you guys

869
01:18:53,415 --> 01:19:00,795
wrote and maintained software right you it allowed you to construct collaborative bitcoin transactions

870
01:19:00,795 --> 01:19:04,235
You never controlled the funds. You never held the keys.

871
01:19:04,895 --> 01:19:07,555
Users are initiating this on their own.

872
01:19:07,955 --> 01:19:10,195
They're not having to reach out to you guys to do it, right?

873
01:19:10,275 --> 01:19:12,335
You guys aren't in communication with the users.

874
01:19:12,815 --> 01:19:13,255
Correct.

875
01:19:13,455 --> 01:19:15,795
And again, you're non-custodial.

876
01:19:16,935 --> 01:19:20,475
And that has been a big thing for FinCEN, right?

877
01:19:20,515 --> 01:19:25,175
This is like the core, like the boundary basically for this.

878
01:19:25,295 --> 01:19:26,975
It's like, is it custodial or non-custodial?

879
01:19:27,275 --> 01:19:30,055
And if it's non-custodial, okay, that's a different ballgame.

880
01:19:30,055 --> 01:19:43,395
And to me, this just sets such a absolutely horrific precedent moving forward to say, yep, okay, oh, you know, non-custodial devs, you're in our sights too in the Southern District of New York.

881
01:19:43,635 --> 01:19:46,435
Like clearly, maybe not everywhere else, but certainly seems like there.

882
01:19:47,055 --> 01:19:48,215
And what does that mean?

883
01:19:48,275 --> 01:19:54,055
So I would just, again, I want to keep beating this drum because Bitcoiners, I think we cannot be complacent here.

884
01:19:54,055 --> 01:19:58,735
We cannot fall into this trap of, well, you know, it's, it doesn't affect me right now.

885
01:19:58,735 --> 01:20:00,135
So I'm just not going to worry about it.

886
01:20:00,155 --> 01:20:03,895
Like this, we need to be engaged on this.

887
01:20:04,035 --> 01:20:11,195
We need to stand up on this because this is, if we don't now, you may not have the same

888
01:20:11,195 --> 01:20:12,255
opportunity later.

889
01:20:12,255 --> 01:20:15,495
This is a case where it's pretty clear.

890
01:20:15,635 --> 01:20:21,015
I think to anybody who is thinking about this, uh, uh, neutrally and logically, and isn't,

891
01:20:21,015 --> 01:20:27,095
a motivated prosecutor that this is not how justice is supposed to be served in America.

892
01:20:27,655 --> 01:20:34,815
This is, this is not. And so again, I would say guys make noise out there and make your voices

893
01:20:34,815 --> 01:20:38,295
heard and try to do whatever you can to share this message and sign the petition again,

894
01:20:38,615 --> 01:20:45,795
billing Keone.org donate if you can. And because this is just, this is wrong. No, I mean this,

895
01:20:45,995 --> 01:20:49,495
this is wrong. This is not something that should happen in the United States of America.

896
01:20:49,495 --> 01:20:53,135
it is happening though it's very real it's happening to you guys right now the clock is

897
01:20:53,135 --> 01:20:58,955
ticking for you guys and it's like we we need to keep pushing on this and i know a lot of people

898
01:20:58,955 --> 01:21:04,635
are um i know a lot of people have been out there pushing really hard because they they know like

899
01:21:04,635 --> 01:21:10,395
what you guys stand for and they are also not complete uh you know they're not corrupt prosecutors

900
01:21:10,395 --> 01:21:14,075
not saying these particular prosecutors are corrupt i'm just saying if there were corrupt

901
01:21:14,075 --> 01:21:20,735
prosecutors. Now you're starting to think like, what am I saying? What prosecutor is going to hear

902
01:21:20,735 --> 01:21:24,675
what I'm saying? And take it out of context, right? I don't know who these prosecutors are.

903
01:21:24,875 --> 01:21:28,735
So I'm not, of course, not talking about them. I'm talking about theoretical prosecutors who may

904
01:21:28,735 --> 01:21:34,175
or may not be, be corrupt and be, you know, carrying out justice in a very corrupt way.

905
01:21:34,315 --> 01:21:40,815
Not these ones, of course, not at all them. I'm really like, I mean, like how, how are you, I mean,

906
01:21:40,815 --> 01:21:42,635
I guess you don't know how bills holding up because again,

907
01:21:42,635 --> 01:21:46,255
you guys aren't allowed to talk without it's costing you $4,000 an hour,

908
01:21:46,295 --> 01:21:46,755
which is again,

909
01:21:46,755 --> 01:21:47,355
just insane.

910
01:21:48,155 --> 01:21:49,455
How are you holding up?

911
01:21:49,595 --> 01:21:49,875
I mean,

912
01:21:49,895 --> 01:21:50,295
are you,

913
01:21:50,295 --> 01:21:50,995
are you still,

914
01:21:51,115 --> 01:21:52,575
there's been a lot of noise about this.

915
01:21:52,575 --> 01:21:55,875
Like there has been a kind of a groundswell of people coming,

916
01:21:56,435 --> 01:21:57,615
coming to bat for you guys.

917
01:21:58,235 --> 01:22:00,055
Are you still feeling like,

918
01:22:00,075 --> 01:22:00,975
I hope you still have some,

919
01:22:01,035 --> 01:22:01,495
some hope.

920
01:22:01,495 --> 01:22:02,395
Like you seem like you're,

921
01:22:02,535 --> 01:22:03,275
you still have some hope.

922
01:22:03,315 --> 01:22:04,215
I'm honestly amazed.

923
01:22:04,215 --> 01:22:04,915
Like you are,

924
01:22:04,975 --> 01:22:07,835
you're holding up incredibly well under the circumstances,

925
01:22:07,835 --> 01:22:09,435
like hats off to you,

926
01:22:09,435 --> 01:22:09,575
man.

927
01:22:09,575 --> 01:22:10,535
I cannot imagine.

928
01:22:10,815 --> 01:22:24,655
Yeah, no, thank you. I mean, I think, I don't know if it's hope or if it's, like I said earlier, if we manage to get it in front of the president, which is difficult, he's the president of the United States, right? Like, it's hard to get his attention.

929
01:22:24,655 --> 01:22:51,495
But if we do manage, if we make enough noise or the right people hear this and the right people share it and right people see it, I think we have a good chance. Right. I think we have a good chance. So it's not hope in that sense. It's knowing that the president, again, is just a fundamentally fair guy. Like you can hate his policies. You can hate his politics. You can hate the way he speaks to people. All of that really is irrelevant.

930
01:22:51,495 --> 01:22:59,695
he's a fundamentally fair-minded person uh i think and getting and he understands the lawfare

931
01:22:59,695 --> 01:23:05,315
he understands that intimately so getting the information in front of him is the hard part of

932
01:23:05,315 --> 01:23:11,135
that but once it's in front of him i think it's pretty likely he takes care of it and brings

933
01:23:11,135 --> 01:23:18,315
justice uh to me and bill so um there is i guess some hope there uh but besides that i mean i'm

934
01:23:18,315 --> 01:23:24,415
just, you know, it's a, it's a played out expression, but it really is. It is what it is.

935
01:23:24,695 --> 01:23:30,695
Like that's, there's nothing I can do at this point other than what I'm doing. And that,

936
01:23:30,855 --> 01:23:37,515
that means just talking right now and getting the story out there. So that when I'm in the cell,

937
01:23:38,035 --> 01:23:42,875
laying in bed at night, thinking to myself, did I do everything I could have done? Did I speak to

938
01:23:42,875 --> 01:23:48,055
everyone I could have spoke to? Did I walk through every door that was open to me? I can say yes.

939
01:23:48,315 --> 01:24:01,415
Right. I did everything I could. So, yeah, I mean, I'm holding up. OK, I'm holding up. Well, so is Bill. The last time I saw him at court, he was in good spirits. He thought we made the right choice in taking the deal as well.

940
01:24:01,415 --> 01:24:06,695
you know so he's not living it with what if or guilt or anything like that as far as i could tell

941
01:24:06,695 --> 01:24:13,455
uh so you know i think we're both very similar types of people uh and we're gonna do the time

942
01:24:13,455 --> 01:24:18,875
that we have to do and we're gonna you know just make it work and we're not gonna sit there going

943
01:24:18,875 --> 01:24:23,915
oh this is just not fair or whatever because what's the point of doing that it's the point of

944
01:24:23,915 --> 01:24:29,695
you know commiserating on what you can't change uh so just doing what we can do

945
01:24:29,695 --> 01:24:35,835
dealing with it and then, you know, we'll be back soon enough, five years or whatever,

946
01:24:35,955 --> 01:24:41,655
maybe a little bit less for good time. And I hope that, you know, the industry, the Bitcoin industry

947
01:24:41,655 --> 01:24:48,535
is strong and isn't completely captured. You know, that's kind of what I'm interested to see.

948
01:24:48,535 --> 01:24:54,055
What happens in five years? Is Bitcoin just another Wall Street asset? Is it essentially

949
01:24:54,055 --> 01:25:01,795
owned by BlackRock? Or is it what I originally got into Bitcoin for? Is there still a hint of

950
01:25:01,795 --> 01:25:06,875
censorship resistance in the air? And I think there will be. I hope there will be. But we'll see.

951
01:25:09,315 --> 01:25:15,115
I say amen to that. I'm also curious, and somebody had asked this on Noster when they saw I'd be

952
01:25:15,115 --> 01:25:20,715
talking to you, just about the license that the code is currently published under. Because I think

953
01:25:20,715 --> 01:25:27,355
there are probably some people out there who in defiance uh want to maybe spin up instances uh of

954
01:25:27,355 --> 01:25:33,575
of this very same you know software like much like was done in the uh kind of the by the early

955
01:25:33,575 --> 01:25:38,475
cypherpunks right with just you know even publishing uh publishing encryption in in books

956
01:25:38,475 --> 01:25:43,455
and on t-shirts and things like that like is there what what's it currently uh what what license is

957
01:25:43,455 --> 01:25:49,455
it under is it under uh an mit uh open license or can people like is it a fully available still

958
01:25:50,155 --> 01:25:50,695
Yeah, yeah.

959
01:25:50,835 --> 01:25:52,315
It's fully open source.

960
01:25:52,515 --> 01:25:53,995
It's a fully open source license.

961
01:25:54,815 --> 01:26:00,555
There's already been a fork and there's already, it's called Ashigaru, and they've already

962
01:26:00,555 --> 01:26:03,555
restarted Whirlpool, right?

963
01:26:03,635 --> 01:26:08,175
So like there's a group of people who are brave enough to do that and have learned from,

964
01:26:08,295 --> 01:26:12,595
you know, our experiences and are doing things slightly differently in terms of their anonymity

965
01:26:12,595 --> 01:26:17,675
with knowledge now that doesn't, the government doesn't care if what you're doing is legal

966
01:26:17,675 --> 01:26:18,115
or not.

967
01:26:18,115 --> 01:26:19,535
If they want to, they'll get you.

968
01:26:20,275 --> 01:26:21,535
So they're doing that.

969
01:26:21,635 --> 01:26:25,755
So yes, to answer that particular question, it's licensed under the GPL.

970
01:26:26,875 --> 01:26:30,855
So I don't know exactly which version of the GPL or not.

971
01:26:31,175 --> 01:26:39,555
But what that means is anyone can copy the code, modify the code for profit or for altruism,

972
01:26:39,635 --> 01:26:40,455
whatever you want to do.

973
01:26:40,875 --> 01:26:45,295
The only restriction is whatever you do also has to be open source.

974
01:26:45,295 --> 01:26:53,115
You also have to keep that open source license in place so that anyone else can take what you've done and remix it and do whatever they want to do with it.

975
01:26:54,275 --> 01:26:56,695
I mean, that is awesome.

976
01:26:56,815 --> 01:27:00,855
And that's one of the reasons open source software is so incredibly powerful.

977
01:27:00,855 --> 01:27:17,895
And again, one of the reasons, I mean, I can only imagine perhaps one of the reasons that you guys were kind of targeted in the first place is because, look, not only were you guys, did you run this software yourselves, but you made this software available for anyone else to run.

978
01:27:18,395 --> 01:27:21,475
And that is the beautiful thing, though, is like the genie's out of the bottle with this.

979
01:27:21,955 --> 01:27:28,055
And people need to keep standing up and actually they need to remember that the government does not give you your freedoms.

980
01:27:28,155 --> 01:27:29,655
The government can only take them away.

981
01:27:29,655 --> 01:27:35,475
we have to take our freedoms as individuals and we we need to fucking take them together and we

982
01:27:35,475 --> 01:27:41,875
need to stand up and make a stand for keone and bill right now but also like run open source code

983
01:27:41,875 --> 01:27:48,735
and you know what because if we don't and if we don't take a stand now and if we don't actually

984
01:27:48,735 --> 01:27:53,275
use these tools that are available now if we don't make our voices heard wherever we can

985
01:27:53,275 --> 01:28:00,375
then I don't know what what's coming to us is is not going to be good but we won't have done

986
01:28:00,375 --> 01:28:05,275
anything to stop it so like I again I would just have a call to action for people like

987
01:28:05,275 --> 01:28:10,995
make your voice heard uh but you know and and vote vote with your feet by using these tools

988
01:28:10,995 --> 01:28:16,235
uh write open source code if you're a builder yourself like publish it put it out there so

989
01:28:16,235 --> 01:28:22,895
this can't be stopped but again I know I've taken already a good amount of your time uh I want to

990
01:28:22,895 --> 01:28:27,135
maybe just give you an opportunity for anything else you want to say, or maybe, you know, if,

991
01:28:27,195 --> 01:28:34,075
if somehow someone from the Trump administration or, or, or president Trump himself somehow gets

992
01:28:34,075 --> 01:28:39,475
shown a clip of this, is there something you would say to him directly or to the administration or,

993
01:28:39,475 --> 01:28:44,335
or just, you know, broadly, is there, is there a core to the message that you want to put out there?

994
01:28:45,235 --> 01:28:49,355
Yeah. I mean, I think I've said it, you know, through here and I truly, I truly believe it,

995
01:28:49,355 --> 01:28:52,395
But, you know, again, the president has been through this.

996
01:28:52,475 --> 01:28:59,535
He has been targeted by not only a weaponized Justice Department, but by a weaponized Southern District of New York.

997
01:28:59,695 --> 01:29:06,795
So he is intimately familiar with the same Department of Justice that started our prosecution.

998
01:29:07,055 --> 01:29:10,455
They also prosecuted and persecuted him.

999
01:29:10,755 --> 01:29:14,855
So he knows he's, you know, a fair minded guy.

1000
01:29:14,855 --> 01:29:37,475
And I know that he would do the right thing in pardoning Bill and myself if this came to his attention. So, you know, I really don't have to sell it that hard because, again, it speaks for itself. It really does. You see all of the inconsistencies in this case. You see the Brady violations. You see the Clinton appointed judge who is essentially acting as a prosecutor on the bench.

1001
01:29:37,475 --> 01:30:05,835
You see a prosecution that never, an indictment that never should have, you know, seen the light of day, right? I guarantee you they didn't bring up that FinCEN letter in the grand jury proceedings. Because what grand jury would indict on a charge of unlicensed money transmission when the regulator says in black and white ink, they don't need a license? Never would happen. Even in Manhattan, that never would happen. So they definitely didn't bring that evidence to the grand jury and they're supposed to.

1002
01:30:05,835 --> 01:30:12,735
so he you know they would see all of these issues in this case uh very blatantly and i think they

1003
01:30:12,735 --> 01:30:18,015
would do the right thing so all i would ask is for everyone who's listening now to go to bill

1004
01:30:18,015 --> 01:30:25,635
and keone.org sign the petition donate if you can and if and share this podcast share the stream

1005
01:30:25,635 --> 01:30:32,675
share what's going on because people need to know the truth about the justice department the truth

1006
01:30:32,675 --> 01:30:38,315
about the Southern District of New York. And to President Trump, whose whole, at least in the

1007
01:30:38,315 --> 01:30:43,915
first term, whole thing was drain the swamp. The swamp is the Southern District of New York.

1008
01:30:44,675 --> 01:30:51,095
This is the swamp. Please, Mr. President, drain it. Get rid of these people. Because if you do not

1009
01:30:51,095 --> 01:30:55,495
get rid of them, they will come after you. And they will come after your family. You're not going

1010
01:30:55,495 --> 01:31:00,535
to be the president forever. And when you're not the president, and you don't have that power,

1011
01:31:00,535 --> 01:31:08,275
they're going to come after you without question. So get, take care of it now before it's too late.

1012
01:31:10,015 --> 01:31:17,635
And I truly hope that Trump somehow is able to see this message in there. If enough people make

1013
01:31:17,635 --> 01:31:22,895
enough noise, it's, it's amazing what a group of motivated Bitcoiners can do. I just want to say

1014
01:31:22,895 --> 01:31:30,475
thank you to you guys. Like you are, I mean, the tip of the spear really. And I think

1015
01:31:30,475 --> 01:31:34,635
it's right now it's up to the rest of us Bitcoiners to be the shield because you guys were out there

1016
01:31:34,635 --> 01:31:39,155
at the forefront. You were pushing boundaries and you were doing it all legally is the other thing.

1017
01:31:39,155 --> 01:31:46,155
And this is what we should celebrate people who build technology, open source technology in America

1018
01:31:46,155 --> 01:31:52,695
that is beneficial for Americans and that do so in a way that completely respects our existing laws.

1019
01:31:52,975 --> 01:31:58,115
That's not something you want to punish. If you do that, you will drive any and all builders worth

1020
01:31:58,115 --> 01:32:03,695
the dam offshore into much less friendly jurisdictions, although clearly the Southern

1021
01:32:03,695 --> 01:32:10,535
District of New York is not a very friendly one. And, and you will completely strangle any form of

1022
01:32:10,535 --> 01:32:15,695
innovation that is going to happen here in America. And we will be left as citizens with a,

1023
01:32:15,695 --> 01:32:23,235
I don't know, a totalitarian financial panopticon out of our nightmares. And none of us want that.

1024
01:32:23,235 --> 01:32:25,235
This is the United States of fucking America.

1025
01:32:25,415 --> 01:32:31,275
We need to be protecting people who actively go out there and build tools that make our lives as Americans better.

1026
01:32:31,395 --> 01:32:32,375
That's what you and Bill did.

1027
01:32:32,735 --> 01:32:33,955
Thank you guys for doing that.

1028
01:32:34,055 --> 01:32:36,315
And again, Bill and Keone dot org.

1029
01:32:36,475 --> 01:32:38,275
You can go to again, donate there.

1030
01:32:38,655 --> 01:32:42,115
I'll link this in the show notes for anybody who's listening to this after the live stream.

1031
01:32:42,835 --> 01:32:43,915
Share this website.

1032
01:32:44,075 --> 01:32:45,315
You can sign the petition there.

1033
01:32:45,855 --> 01:32:46,475
Make noise.

1034
01:32:46,995 --> 01:32:51,375
You know, scream pardon samurai from the mountaintops.

1035
01:32:51,455 --> 01:32:52,275
Do whatever you can.

1036
01:32:52,275 --> 01:32:56,435
your voice can make a difference. And so that's, that's my, that's my call to Bitcoiners. Don't be

1037
01:32:56,435 --> 01:33:01,335
complacent. Don't think that this doesn't affect you. If they come for one of us, they will

1038
01:33:01,335 --> 01:33:06,615
eventually come for all of us. And we need these tools. We need privacy preserving tools to be able

1039
01:33:06,615 --> 01:33:12,635
to actually have a chance at a free future. And again, thank you guys for, for building those

1040
01:33:12,635 --> 01:33:18,355
tools for almost a decade prior to having your doors kicked in and your life's made a living hell.

1041
01:33:18,355 --> 01:33:22,415
I really, I, I, I have faith in this and I'm,

1042
01:33:22,415 --> 01:33:25,995
I'm going to continue using whatever platform I have to try and make noise as

1043
01:33:25,995 --> 01:33:27,855
well. Um, and yeah,

1044
01:33:28,195 --> 01:33:32,675
I'm wishing you guys the absolute best and I hope that we can have a

1045
01:33:32,675 --> 01:33:38,035
conversation again without this specter hanging over you when you have

1046
01:33:38,035 --> 01:33:41,015
received a pardon. Uh, that's, we're going to,

1047
01:33:41,075 --> 01:33:43,455
we're going to manifest that into existence and we're going to make it happen.

1048
01:33:43,455 --> 01:33:47,475
Not with the woo-woo manifesting, but like by actually doing shit. So right.

1049
01:33:47,475 --> 01:33:52,415
we're pulling for you guys, man. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on and giving me a

1050
01:33:52,415 --> 01:33:58,435
chance to, you know, tell the story. Appreciate it. Absolutely. Well, we'll go ahead and we'll

1051
01:33:58,435 --> 01:34:01,675
go ahead and cut this out here. Thank you to everybody who tuned in. And again, bill and

1052
01:34:01,675 --> 01:34:07,495
Keone.org. Please go there, sign the petition, donate if you can share it. If you can sharing,

1053
01:34:07,495 --> 01:34:11,195
it's free. Take a couple of minutes of your time and go do that. Thanks everyone.

1054
01:34:17,475 --> 01:34:26,175
And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of The Bitcoin Podcast.

1055
01:34:26,795 --> 01:34:30,755
Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you're watching or listening,

1056
01:34:31,175 --> 01:34:35,055
and share it with your friends, family, and strangers on the internet.

1057
01:34:35,055 --> 01:34:41,755
Find me on Noster at primal.net slash walker and this podcast at primal.net slash titcoin.

1058
01:34:42,355 --> 01:34:45,635
On X, YouTube, and Rumble, just search at Walker America.

1059
01:34:45,635 --> 01:34:50,475
and find this podcast on X and Instagram at titcoinpodcast.

1060
01:34:50,475 --> 01:34:53,155
Head to the show notes to grab sponsor links.

1061
01:34:53,255 --> 01:34:57,955
Head to substack.com slash atwalkeramerica to get episodes emailed to you

1062
01:34:57,955 --> 01:35:01,755
and head to bitcoinpodcast.net for everything else.

1063
01:35:02,315 --> 01:35:05,855
Bitcoin is scarce, but podcasts are abundant.

1064
01:35:06,375 --> 01:35:11,475
So thank you for spending your scarce time listening to the Bitcoin podcast.

1065
01:35:12,015 --> 01:35:14,515
Until next time, stay free.

1066
01:35:15,635 --> 01:35:17,215
I don't.