1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,500 coming all right here it is the halloween special edition of the city of bitcoin jam 2 00:00:07,500 --> 00:00:13,900 i'm joined by my uh friend i think he came out of the canteen sequence from star wars 3 00:00:13,900 --> 00:00:19,080 sight for peril baby let's just sign for peril that's just doggy how it is and then i think this 4 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:25,520 is like a minecraft but you actually stole max's natural hair right people probably think max is 5 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,700 sitting over here. Right. And that's Steve. I'm pretty sure 6 00:00:28,700 --> 00:00:31,940 that I'm pretty sure that's Max right there. I'm actually Steve. 7 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,060 Steve from Minecraft. Yes. I don't know the Minecraft lore that 8 00:00:37,060 --> 00:00:40,760 well. But the name of the main character and my god was Steve. 9 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:46,820 So I was like, Steve? But in the movie, Jeff Black plays Steve. 10 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,960 So that's why that's why you got the hair. My beard does not 11 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,100 didn't do it. 12 00:00:53,260 --> 00:00:55,280 But it blends nicely with your mustache. 13 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:57,600 The only thing they need here 14 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:58,920 is the aholotel. Remember? 15 00:00:59,340 --> 00:01:01,800 Any of our diehard listeners know the aholotel 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:02,380 from Minecraft. 17 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:05,600 Is that one of the animals? 18 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:06,560 Yeah. 19 00:01:07,340 --> 00:01:08,200 It's a weird little Mexican. 20 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,340 You know a little animal that you told me about 21 00:01:10,340 --> 00:01:11,660 with a weird name. 22 00:01:12,420 --> 00:01:12,940 Axolotl. 23 00:01:12,940 --> 00:01:14,680 Yeah, yeah. I think that's what he says. 24 00:01:15,780 --> 00:01:15,880 Yeah. 25 00:01:16,820 --> 00:01:20,480 But one 26 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:21,900 super serious question. 27 00:01:22,420 --> 00:01:24,480 Why is it that the scariest one of us all 28 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,060 is, D.K. 29 00:01:26,100 --> 00:01:28,260 What is this horrific mask you've got on? 30 00:01:28,780 --> 00:01:29,640 And I've got to know, 31 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:31,400 where is the biddy suit? 32 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:32,840 I was promised this biddy suit. 33 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:33,860 This is my costume. 34 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:36,560 I got a biddy costume. 35 00:01:36,740 --> 00:01:38,220 You misread our message list. 36 00:01:38,820 --> 00:01:40,960 We have the full-blown 37 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:42,140 biddy costume. 38 00:01:44,860 --> 00:01:47,060 You've not seen the movie yet. 39 00:01:47,140 --> 00:01:48,360 You should see who is Bitcoin. 40 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:49,360 Look it up on YouTube. 41 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:51,660 That's viral produced. 42 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,440 And we thought you were going to wear that. 43 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,600 I thought you, in the group chat, you said you were going to dress me up as that. 44 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,620 And I showed up and my wardrobe was not ready. 45 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,180 Well, the episode is still live. 46 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,740 So if we want to get a big issue for Deepka, it sounds like he's running. 47 00:02:08,920 --> 00:02:09,580 All right. 48 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:10,580 I'm saying he must have. 49 00:02:10,640 --> 00:02:12,480 Mike's not on for PBJ. 50 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:13,360 Oh, is that right? 51 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:14,740 What happened? 52 00:02:15,220 --> 00:02:17,940 Did we, people are upset? 53 00:02:17,940 --> 00:02:19,200 Am I hearing the PBJ? 54 00:02:19,340 --> 00:02:19,880 I don't know. 55 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,320 I didn't get any such messages. 56 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:25,880 Alex, does stuff sound all right for you? 57 00:02:27,260 --> 00:02:32,120 Hey, if anybody's watching, if you could pop in the chat, can you hear us? 58 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,820 I bet they just can't hear Max because he's got his paper mache. 59 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:37,280 Is that it? 60 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:37,820 All right. 61 00:02:37,940 --> 00:02:38,900 Now he says it's working. 62 00:02:39,180 --> 00:02:39,380 All right. 63 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,120 Maybe a temporary glitch. 64 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:42,400 Maybe it's the costumes. 65 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:43,000 I don't know. 66 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,660 I may do a little wardrobe change myself at the moment. 67 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:49,040 Can you all hear me? 68 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,560 if anyone's listening to this chat, can you hear me in this mask or no? 69 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,120 We'll wait for someone to say, anyways. 70 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:55,260 Okay, somebody said better. 71 00:02:56,640 --> 00:02:58,020 So, happy Halloween. 72 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:01,280 That's why we're dressed like this, right? 73 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:03,420 Is it a special day? 74 00:03:03,860 --> 00:03:05,380 It's a special day in Bitcoin land. 75 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:06,840 Oh, why is that? 76 00:03:07,220 --> 00:03:12,760 Well, it was on October 31st, 2008, 77 00:03:13,220 --> 00:03:17,060 that the Bitcoin white paper was first presented to the public. 78 00:03:17,060 --> 00:03:19,940 at 11.10 a.m. Pacific time. 79 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:21,820 So one hour ago. 80 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:23,400 Ooh, almost perfect time. 81 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:24,580 Well, 17 years and one hour ago. 82 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:25,020 Yeah. 83 00:03:25,540 --> 00:03:27,800 And, you know, I think it's actually interesting 84 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,860 that it happened to such little fanfare. 85 00:03:31,900 --> 00:03:33,880 Do you know how many people responded to it 86 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:34,820 in the first 24 hours? 87 00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:35,280 How many? 88 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:35,900 Two. 89 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:38,060 And who were they? 90 00:03:39,340 --> 00:03:40,740 The one guy, I don't remember his name, 91 00:03:40,740 --> 00:03:43,020 but he was kind of like skeptical, but curious. 92 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:44,740 He was like open to learning more, 93 00:03:44,820 --> 00:03:45,780 but he was kind of like skeptical. 94 00:03:45,780 --> 00:03:47,440 and then the other was Hal Finney. 95 00:03:48,380 --> 00:03:50,180 Was the other one Curious DK? 96 00:03:52,260 --> 00:03:55,760 Did not make an appearance on the Cypherpunks mailing list. 97 00:03:56,020 --> 00:03:56,960 Is Hal Finney Satoshi? 98 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,420 Was he just responding to himself? 99 00:03:59,340 --> 00:04:01,660 But I think it's actually interesting 100 00:04:01,660 --> 00:04:05,140 that it was so low-key 101 00:04:05,140 --> 00:04:06,260 because nothing, 102 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,740 like all of the subsequent things 103 00:04:08,740 --> 00:04:09,860 are not low-key at all. 104 00:04:10,060 --> 00:04:12,280 All the subsequent things are big hype 105 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,580 and, you know, try to harvest out 106 00:04:15,780 --> 00:04:21,120 hype from, you know, some sort of like Twitter audience or something. And Bitcoin, the OG, 107 00:04:21,340 --> 00:04:27,060 the king, the only one that really matters, basically had no attention, no fanfare. It 108 00:04:27,060 --> 00:04:32,180 launched to like two responses in the first 24 hours. Yeah. It was telling for almost anything 109 00:04:32,180 --> 00:04:37,420 new you're building, like you don't necessarily need to think about how much hype am I building, 110 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,200 but how much substance am I building? Yeah, that's, I mean, that's a great point, right? 111 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,940 because up until that point there had been 112 00:04:43,940 --> 00:04:45,580 several attempts at 113 00:04:45,580 --> 00:04:48,080 digital cash. They'd failed. 114 00:04:48,620 --> 00:04:49,760 They each had different 115 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,280 centralization points. 116 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:53,280 But it was a very niche 117 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:55,880 community at the time and there certainly 118 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:56,560 was no 119 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,960 investment or money 120 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:01,860 attached to it. So it didn't draw 121 00:05:01,860 --> 00:05:03,320 on a much bigger crowd. 122 00:05:04,540 --> 00:05:04,560 And 123 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,740 I think a lot of cypherpunks 124 00:05:07,740 --> 00:05:09,260 on that list were just 125 00:05:09,260 --> 00:05:11,480 they're skeptical by nature. 126 00:05:11,900 --> 00:05:14,420 They were skeptical on this claim. 127 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:17,740 Completely reasonable to be skeptical, I think. 128 00:05:18,260 --> 00:05:20,780 But here we are 17 years later. 129 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:22,540 Is it 17 years? 130 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:23,020 Wow. 131 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:23,600 Crazy. 132 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,160 I think that's a great broader point too. 133 00:05:26,300 --> 00:05:27,420 I mean, just something I think about 134 00:05:27,420 --> 00:05:29,180 investing in general is like, 135 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,440 whenever the crowds are rushing into anything, 136 00:05:31,620 --> 00:05:32,960 I'm like, shit, I don't want to be. 137 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:34,800 I mean, it's nice if you've already 138 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,100 placed your bets very early. 139 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:37,380 But to your point, 140 00:05:37,540 --> 00:05:38,1000 it seems like everything that changes 141 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:44,380 the world almost always starts as like people just either don't see it at all or if they do 142 00:05:44,380 --> 00:05:49,840 see it they think it's a joke so just uh i don't know but once something is in the mainstream hype 143 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:54,260 it's almost like not the right time to be pursuing it it's like yeah i want to do something else 144 00:05:54,260 --> 00:05:57,900 you want to find the ideas from the edge right you want to find the things that are not yet 145 00:05:57,900 --> 00:06:07,080 that was yes exactly pump it max's show pump it baby pump it um by the way should we point the 146 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,940 We have the white paper framed. 147 00:06:10,580 --> 00:06:11,520 That's my costume. 148 00:06:11,900 --> 00:06:12,080 Yeah. 149 00:06:13,620 --> 00:06:16,520 Maybe we should make that a permanent picture. 150 00:06:16,860 --> 00:06:19,440 I mean, we can keep it at the entrance of Presbyterian Bitcoin, 151 00:06:19,660 --> 00:06:22,680 but when we record, maybe we bring this in every week. 152 00:06:22,820 --> 00:06:23,000 Yeah. 153 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:24,300 Not just once a year. 154 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:24,800 All right. 155 00:06:24,860 --> 00:06:25,500 That's pretty cool. 156 00:06:25,700 --> 00:06:25,880 Yeah. 157 00:06:26,380 --> 00:06:26,800 I like it. 158 00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:27,320 It's nice looking. 159 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:28,340 Good to have our Bible. 160 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:34,820 Any other facts that you guys have dug up on the 2008 launch? 161 00:06:34,820 --> 00:06:40,600 I actually learned one this morning. I don't know if this is true, but if it is, it would make a lot 162 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:46,980 of sense. I saw this briefly, briefly on a Nostra post that apparently almost 500 years prior, 163 00:06:47,060 --> 00:06:53,160 I think it was 493, 492, I forget exactly, but apparently Martin Luther put up his theses on 164 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,580 October 31st. I have not verified that. I don't know if that's true. Maybe some people in the 165 00:06:57,580 --> 00:07:02,680 audience or Steve, maybe you know. But if it is, that's really interesting to me because in the 166 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:07,360 same way that the sort of gist of this post was that, you know, Martin Luther found the corruption 167 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:12,860 in the church and published, you know, his doctrine to say, no, you can, you can just speak directly 168 00:07:12,860 --> 00:07:17,640 to God. It's, it's all in you. In the same way, the white paper, that's our thesis. And Satoshi 169 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,720 is our sort of, uh, Martin Luther that says, no, there's a lot of corruption in this state 170 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:26,000 and you don't need these centralized parties to act like vampires sucking your life force. 171 00:07:26,580 --> 00:07:30,980 So I'm curious, you called me out to know. So did you know, I, did you know that I grew up 172 00:07:30,980 --> 00:07:31,820 Lutheran Max? 173 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:33,880 I did not know that, actually. 174 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:36,760 I had no idea. 175 00:07:36,1000 --> 00:07:38,020 But I actually did not know that. 176 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:38,660 Yeah. 177 00:07:39,060 --> 00:07:40,840 So if anyone can verify that for us. 178 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:41,480 Oh, confirmed. 179 00:07:41,580 --> 00:07:42,240 We got confirmed. 180 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,880 October 31st, 1517. 181 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,840 And this is one of those things where whoever Satoshi is, like, no coincidence. 182 00:07:49,260 --> 00:07:49,740 You know what I'm saying? 183 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:51,740 There's no like, oh, it was just dropped on a random day. 184 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:51,980 No. 185 00:07:52,340 --> 00:07:53,480 October 31st was for a reason. 186 00:07:54,260 --> 00:07:55,280 Also, maybe he liked Halloween. 187 00:07:56,780 --> 00:08:00,960 I found, I did not know this, but do you know that it was originally published? 188 00:08:00,980 --> 00:08:03,400 We all know that it was originally published on Bitcoin.org, right? 189 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:05,080 Do you know that? 190 00:08:06,620 --> 00:08:07,320 I don't know that. 191 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:08,100 I don't. 192 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:09,900 Okay, that's what we mean by originally published. 193 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,180 The white paper was published on Bitcoin.org. 194 00:08:12,540 --> 00:08:14,280 That's where it was available? 195 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:16,200 Before October? 196 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:16,660 No. 197 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:17,540 Well. 198 00:08:17,740 --> 00:08:22,520 I don't think Bitcoin.org existed until months or years later. 199 00:08:22,780 --> 00:08:25,820 It says, this is, you know, maybe it's Grok is lying to me, 200 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:27,640 but it says, host on Bitcoin.org originally, 201 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,820 the white paper was uploaded to Bitcoin.org, 202 00:08:29,820 --> 00:08:33,860 a domain registered anonymously on August 18, 2008. 203 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:34,820 So that was interesting. 204 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:36,920 Okay. I actually don't know the specifics. 205 00:08:37,220 --> 00:08:40,340 That surprises me. I thought it came a little bit later. 206 00:08:40,340 --> 00:08:44,220 I thought it was hosted on bitcoin.com, hosted by Roger Verbe. 207 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:52,660 But the .org was registered anonymously via anonymousspeech.com in Japan, 208 00:08:53,620 --> 00:08:57,860 which is, I guess, a registrar that maybe doesn't take a lot of information 209 00:08:57,860 --> 00:08:59,440 in order to register and host. 210 00:08:59,820 --> 00:09:02,780 So another little piece I just learned today doing some research. 211 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:03,200 Yeah. 212 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:05,880 All right. 213 00:09:05,940 --> 00:09:06,580 Anything else? 214 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:07,500 White paper? 215 00:09:07,700 --> 00:09:08,380 Little facts? 216 00:09:12,460 --> 00:09:13,900 114 words in the abstract. 217 00:09:14,540 --> 00:09:15,440 There's a lot of numerology. 218 00:09:16,540 --> 00:09:17,480 Well, I just think it's interesting. 219 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:26,660 There's so many things that are very important to a lot of people in Bitcoin today that are not in the white paper, 220 00:09:26,660 --> 00:09:30,080 that were in the initial code drop, though, 221 00:09:30,420 --> 00:09:31,900 like 21 million, for example. 222 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:39,860 And just the whole supply 223 00:09:39,860 --> 00:09:41,540 and how it's distributed and minted, 224 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,420 that was sort of left to the code. 225 00:09:45,420 --> 00:09:47,280 So there's no mention of it in the white paper. 226 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,960 So the first time anybody saw that was January 3rd or whatever? 227 00:09:52,100 --> 00:09:54,080 When was the actual software to run 228 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,180 was published January 3rd, 2009 or something? 229 00:09:56,660 --> 00:09:57,780 I think that's right. 230 00:09:57,900 --> 00:10:01,660 I mean, January 3rd is when the Genesis block is dated. 231 00:10:01,820 --> 00:10:04,420 I think that's when the code was dropped. 232 00:10:04,420 --> 00:10:10,660 Although, I think the code was shared with others in 2008 privately. 233 00:10:11,420 --> 00:10:18,120 But the final 1.0 version of the software, January 3rd sounds right. 234 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:20,960 Let's talk numerology for a minute. 235 00:10:21,260 --> 00:10:22,660 DK, I didn't know you were a numerologist. 236 00:10:22,860 --> 00:10:24,960 What are those words in the abstracts? 237 00:10:24,980 --> 00:10:25,920 What does that mean to you? 238 00:10:26,660 --> 00:10:32,980 It doesn't really mean anything particular to me, but there's a lot of people searching for potential meaning there. 239 00:10:35,620 --> 00:10:40,820 114 words in the Bitcoin white paper's abstract has sparked curiosity and speculation. 240 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:53,180 So coincidence, most likely Satoshi didn't count the words, but the numerology and symbolism is 114 equals 1 plus 1 plus 4 equals 6. 241 00:10:53,180 --> 00:10:56,360 some link this to six confirmations 242 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:57,880 a common Bitcoin security threshold. 243 00:10:58,860 --> 00:10:59,760 No, no, no, no, no. 244 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,340 That is, this sounds like sort of a rock crop. 245 00:11:02,340 --> 00:11:02,520 Highly speculative. 246 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,560 Do you know what Japanese Goroa Wase is? 247 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:07,560 No. 248 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:10,720 It's wordplay with numbers. 249 00:11:10,940 --> 00:11:12,220 You thought it was something about waifu. 250 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:14,780 No, it's wordplay with numbers. 251 00:11:14,780 --> 00:11:16,300 And 114 can be read as 252 00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:19,800 two yo equals good or all right. 253 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:25,700 so max sorry to disappoint but i'm not a numerologist yeah those are pretty bad but but 254 00:11:25,700 --> 00:11:29,440 if someone else has other numerology that they could share i'd be i'd be curious because i do 255 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,720 think that this is definitely whoever satoshi is was paying a lot of attention i can keep going 256 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,820 one other one that i think is interesting i forget the number but a number that would be 257 00:11:37,820 --> 00:11:43,960 really wild is um the number of tokens um so i saw someone i was reading a someone's investment 258 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,680 letter where they mentioned the number of sort of like ai style tokens that the bitcoin white 259 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:50,200 paper is. I don't know if anyone has that number. 260 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,740 Maybe you want to throw that out. That would be interesting to look at too. 261 00:11:54,740 --> 00:11:56,440 Psalm 114. 262 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:58,440 Ooh, what's that? It's short and about 263 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,520 liberation. A stretch, but some 264 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:01,860 draw parallels to financial freedom. 265 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,360 It wouldn't surprise me if there's 266 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:07,980 hidden gems in there, but 267 00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:10,240 whatever. There's so much 268 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,500 kind of perfect planning and execution 269 00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:14,560 of the thing. It's just a work of art. 270 00:12:15,260 --> 00:12:16,640 It really feels like a 271 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,500 creative work of art. Just perfect 272 00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:18,940 polished. 273 00:12:19,060 --> 00:12:19,260 Well, 274 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,000 maybe this would be a good moment to, 275 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:22,220 you know, 276 00:12:22,340 --> 00:12:24,020 someone asked is how funny Satoshi. 277 00:12:24,180 --> 00:12:24,940 I'm just curious. 278 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:25,200 I mean, 279 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:25,620 I know that, 280 00:12:25,700 --> 00:12:25,960 uh, 281 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:26,800 what's his name? 282 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,920 The conservative reporter do is like out of claimant CIA, 283 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,340 which maybe who's y'all's best take. 284 00:12:32,380 --> 00:12:33,420 I know it doesn't necessarily matter, 285 00:12:33,500 --> 00:12:33,960 but you know, 286 00:12:34,020 --> 00:12:34,240 whatever, 287 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:34,980 have a little fun. 288 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:35,620 Who, 289 00:12:35,660 --> 00:12:37,120 who do you guys speculate is Satoshi? 290 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:39,320 I don't, 291 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:40,220 I don't like to speculate. 292 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:41,280 Yeah. 293 00:12:41,420 --> 00:12:42,520 I think it doesn't matter. 294 00:12:42,860 --> 00:12:44,720 It doesn't matter for Bitcoin and Bitcoiners. 295 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,800 It puts people's personal safety at risk. 296 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,340 He obviously wanted to be forgotten. He gave us a gift. Let's let him have his wishes met. 297 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,220 Sorry to poo-poo your question there, Max. 298 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:58,760 But that is how, yeah, I think it's like, and actually it's kind of beautiful in its mystery. 299 00:12:59,060 --> 00:13:00,140 Like, let's just keep the beautiful mystery. 300 00:13:00,140 --> 00:13:01,120 Keep it as mystery, yeah. 301 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:08,120 I mean, for what it's worth, I don't downplay the idea that this could be a very long-term game 302 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:13,040 and perhaps some really smart powers that be saw demographic shifts happening in the world 303 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,180 and said, you know, the dollar dies, what comes next? 304 00:13:15,180 --> 00:13:18,800 But regardless, even if that is the case, I don't think it changes anything. 305 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:19,620 The code's all public. 306 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:20,440 It's all open source. 307 00:13:20,820 --> 00:13:22,620 Whether it's one person, whether it's a group. 308 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:24,520 I mean, it's fun to speculate, of course. 309 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:26,140 What's his name? 310 00:13:26,260 --> 00:13:28,040 The early internet dude. 311 00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:30,080 Oh, I'm forgetting his name. 312 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,400 Posiplex is his fabulous book. 313 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,700 He has a wild claim that it's an actual Japanese mathematician. 314 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,460 There's a lot of wild claims out there, but you can do your own research and go down your 315 00:13:39,460 --> 00:13:39,940 own rabbit holes. 316 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:42,060 The only thing we know is it's not Craig, right? 317 00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:44,860 we already said it was roger vera 318 00:13:44,860 --> 00:13:48,360 we're all satosh 319 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:49,180 we're all satosh 320 00:13:49,180 --> 00:13:50,220 alright 321 00:13:50,220 --> 00:13:52,840 with that should we 322 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,000 with that 323 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,580 now you look like me 324 00:13:56,580 --> 00:13:59,820 I don't think I can handle this 325 00:13:59,820 --> 00:14:01,660 although it's really driving me 326 00:14:01,660 --> 00:14:03,880 you tell me 327 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,080 this beard the strap keeps coming off 328 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:06,760 it's really annoying 329 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,320 if it looks stupid let me know 330 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:10,580 it looks stupid 331 00:14:10,580 --> 00:14:11,860 I mean, beyond... 332 00:14:11,860 --> 00:14:12,760 No, if it looks crooked, 333 00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:13,160 let me... 334 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:13,320 Okay. 335 00:14:13,580 --> 00:14:14,240 And then I'll take it off. 336 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:15,740 You also look a little bit like Wences now. 337 00:14:15,820 --> 00:14:16,140 I like it. 338 00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:18,320 Wences or you? 339 00:14:18,460 --> 00:14:18,680 I don't know. 340 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,360 I look like a combination... 341 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:20,620 A hybridized. 342 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:21,260 Love, shout out. 343 00:14:21,260 --> 00:14:22,040 A combination of Wences. 344 00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:23,460 Shout out. 345 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:25,820 Should we... 346 00:14:25,820 --> 00:14:27,120 I don't know what all... 347 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:28,160 We want to talk about what order, 348 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:29,080 but there's a lot of stuff. 349 00:14:29,420 --> 00:14:29,1000 Yeah, what do we got? 350 00:14:29,1000 --> 00:14:31,580 Steak and Shake just announced this morning 351 00:14:31,580 --> 00:14:32,640 some stuff. 352 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:33,160 Okay. 353 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:33,1000 Start there, maybe? 354 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:34,320 Yeah. 355 00:14:35,620 --> 00:14:36,940 We'll see what they announced. 356 00:14:36,940 --> 00:14:37,840 Steak and Shake announced 357 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:39,800 a strategic Bitcoin reserve. 358 00:14:39,1000 --> 00:14:40,440 Oh, I didn't see that. 359 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:40,680 Awesome. 360 00:14:40,980 --> 00:14:41,220 Yeah. 361 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:41,980 So. 362 00:14:42,660 --> 00:14:43,540 Gotta check the group chat. 363 00:14:43,940 --> 00:14:47,400 And it's, Max just rolls in at noon. 364 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:58,080 So, but it's what I'd call the square style of strategic Bitcoin reserve, not the sailor style. 365 00:14:58,260 --> 00:14:59,720 It's not like a leverage thing. 366 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:10,120 It's just, I think what they committed to is any Bitcoin they receive from customers, they're going to retain as Bitcoin and put it in their strategic Bitcoin reserve. 367 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,240 which is pretty cool, 368 00:15:12,820 --> 00:15:15,280 which will probably start relatively small, 369 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,780 but grow over time, 370 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:18,720 not only the accumulation, 371 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:20,500 but the percentage of customers paying in Bitcoin. 372 00:15:21,060 --> 00:15:22,740 They also announced... 373 00:15:22,740 --> 00:15:23,960 Is this crooked, David? 374 00:15:24,180 --> 00:15:26,460 Your job is to tell me it's crooked. 375 00:15:26,460 --> 00:15:28,460 The people on camera can't see this side, 376 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:29,420 so it's crooked. 377 00:15:30,060 --> 00:15:31,460 I learned I can't smile. 378 00:15:31,580 --> 00:15:33,160 If I smile, then it comes off. 379 00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:33,520 All right. 380 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:34,600 Just be regular. 381 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,280 I have to be super serious. 382 00:15:36,380 --> 00:15:37,480 Just be really pissed. 383 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:38,000 Yeah. 384 00:15:38,580 --> 00:15:39,440 See, there I go. 385 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:40,600 I smiled and came off. 386 00:15:41,380 --> 00:15:42,780 They also announced 387 00:15:42,780 --> 00:15:45,080 integration with Fold. 388 00:15:45,260 --> 00:15:45,800 I saw that. 389 00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:48,660 You're the one that noted that. 390 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,080 What was it exactly? 391 00:15:52,180 --> 00:15:52,760 You get $5. 392 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,000 If you pay with Fold, then you get $5. 393 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,640 Yes, I think Fold probably just as a marketing 394 00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:59,660 expense, it's 395 00:15:59,660 --> 00:16:01,660 helpful to get Bitcoin 396 00:16:01,660 --> 00:16:03,480 topped up in people's wallets and a wallet 397 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,160 that you can use and spend at 398 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:05,980 stake and shake, right? 399 00:16:06,620 --> 00:16:09,400 I think Fold is doing a partnership with them where 400 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:14,960 fold will fund the five dollars into your fold wallet that you can then use to pay steak and 401 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:20,180 shake so it kind of like pairs nicely and you know it's like a marketing expense for folds 402 00:16:20,180 --> 00:16:27,820 otherwise i think probably making exchange fees on like fiat bitcoin on ramp so it's just a they 403 00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:32,940 know that if they get more people in the door you know in on their app as a payment app then they 404 00:16:32,940 --> 00:16:39,360 can make money at it. So it's really nice kind of ecosystem, I think, bootstrap that they're 405 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,780 willing to do that. Yeah, I agree. I think we're going to see more and more Bitcoin companies 406 00:16:42,780 --> 00:16:50,640 partnering with point of sale providers or with merchants. Obviously, they have a vested interest 407 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,180 boost to their own business, but it'll be like a more than some of the parts type of partnership. 408 00:16:55,180 --> 00:16:58,600 And in a lot of like a small, like a local business, I know Steak and Shake is more like 409 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,920 a national thing, but if you're like a local coffee shop or a farmer's market business, 410 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,200 you often don't have a lot of margin to play with. 411 00:17:04,540 --> 00:17:06,920 You're kind of running it pretty tight. 412 00:17:07,340 --> 00:17:09,440 Whereas a technology business 413 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,200 that has some sort of a Bitcoin fiat exchange thing 414 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,120 either has a lot of margin 415 00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:16,740 or has a lot more potential to scale margins. 416 00:17:16,940 --> 00:17:20,200 So they could be a marketing cost 417 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,300 that they could more easily support rationally. 418 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,060 And the third component of their stake and shakes announcement 419 00:17:27,060 --> 00:17:30,360 was that they're going to support OpenSats 420 00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:31,540 and OpenSource Bitcoin development. 421 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:37,220 I think it was 210 sats per Bitcoin meal they sell. 422 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:37,880 That's awesome. 423 00:17:38,140 --> 00:17:38,380 I like that. 424 00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:40,440 You got Steve Sands sats. 425 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:41,580 Oh, yeah. 426 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,1000 Well, I'm a champion for the Bitcoin B symbol visually. 427 00:17:46,260 --> 00:17:47,080 I agree with that. 428 00:17:47,260 --> 00:17:49,200 And then people can say it however they like. 429 00:17:51,380 --> 00:17:53,500 And so, you know, quick math there. 430 00:17:53,900 --> 00:17:56,400 Actually, before I run through my math, 431 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,820 how many Bitcoin sales per day, 432 00:17:59,820 --> 00:18:03,380 or how many steak and shake restaurants are there? 433 00:18:03,940 --> 00:18:04,380 No idea. 434 00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:06,120 I think it's like 5,000 or something. 435 00:18:07,380 --> 00:18:08,000 It's on that. 436 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:08,500 Something like that. 437 00:18:08,660 --> 00:18:09,320 3,000, 7,000. 438 00:18:09,340 --> 00:18:10,400 If anyone wants to fact check us, 439 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:10,940 give us a check. 440 00:18:10,940 --> 00:18:11,560 Something like that. 441 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:12,740 Let's just say 5,000. 442 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:13,540 Yeah, 5,000. 443 00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:14,020 Call it easy. 444 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:14,800 Who is Steve? 445 00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:15,600 Steve from Minecraft. 446 00:18:17,260 --> 00:18:17,820 Steve is Steve. 447 00:18:17,820 --> 00:18:19,100 Diana, you need to watch Minecraft. 448 00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:20,020 Steve is Steve. 449 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,260 And Steve is playing the role of another person named Steve. 450 00:18:23,820 --> 00:18:24,580 It's Metador. 451 00:18:24,580 --> 00:18:24,920 Yeah. 452 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:25,160 Yeah. 453 00:18:28,060 --> 00:18:29,120 So how many, 454 00:18:29,380 --> 00:18:31,200 so let's say there's 5,000 stores. 455 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,120 How many Bitcoin meals per day do they sell? 456 00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,660 How many meals per day do they sell? 457 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:39,940 I don't know. 458 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,380 We're interviewing you for a job, Max. 459 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,260 How would you go about estimating that? 460 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:44,940 Well, I mean, 461 00:18:44,1000 --> 00:18:46,1000 I really don't know how many meals per day. 462 00:18:47,180 --> 00:18:48,520 Yeah, maybe it's easier to say 463 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:49,400 how many Bitcoin meals per day 464 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:50,200 because it's very few. 465 00:18:50,340 --> 00:18:52,480 I would say probably per store, like one. 466 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:53,020 Okay. 467 00:18:53,460 --> 00:18:54,380 So 5,000 a day. 468 00:18:54,380 --> 00:18:55,100 5,000 a day. 469 00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:55,720 So, 470 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,260 and then at the, 471 00:18:59,180 --> 00:19:00,660 so even with just that 472 00:19:00,660 --> 00:19:02,860 average cost of a meal, 473 00:19:02,900 --> 00:19:04,240 reasonable slash low estimate. 474 00:19:04,420 --> 00:19:04,620 Yeah. 475 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:05,320 20 bucks. 476 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:05,860 Well, 477 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:06,480 it doesn't matter 478 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,920 because they're donating 479 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:09,500 the same amount 480 00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:11,140 no matter what the purchase size is. 481 00:19:11,180 --> 00:19:12,560 It's the number of meals per day. 482 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:12,840 So, 483 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,400 it would be like, 484 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,720 million sats? 485 00:19:17,940 --> 00:19:18,280 Five, 486 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:19,040 two, 487 00:19:19,540 --> 00:19:20,400 200 and, 488 00:19:20,940 --> 00:19:22,040 wait, 489 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:22,600 one to three, 490 00:19:23,020 --> 00:19:24,100 $425,000. 491 00:19:24,380 --> 00:19:26,400 a year, I think, 492 00:19:26,620 --> 00:19:28,240 in donations. In donations to 493 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:29,640 OpenSat. Yeah. 494 00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:31,940 Which I think is, that's quite nice. 495 00:19:31,980 --> 00:19:32,280 That's awesome. 496 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,240 I mean, Tether just donated 497 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,080 $250,000. Right, right, right. 498 00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:40,200 So if Steak and Shake from 499 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,160 210 sat donations per meal 500 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,060 can do more than that right at 501 00:19:44,060 --> 00:19:45,560 today's rate, that's amazing. Yeah. 502 00:19:45,940 --> 00:19:47,920 And imagine if it grows by 503 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,100 10x. Exactly. Then it's millions of dollars. 504 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:51,900 Well, I love this in general, 505 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:53,780 this idea of instead of a fixed amount, 506 00:19:53,780 --> 00:19:58,900 I think if there's one thing that really Bitcoin has taught me, it's always put the incentives in place. 507 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,700 And yeah, if it's like a scalable donation, that's the same with Bitwise, right? 508 00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:09,080 With their ETF, which is, you know, if someone wants to use an ETF, I still recommend Bitwise because 10% of whatever goes through there, right? 509 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:15,300 So I would love to see more, I guess, donations to Bitcoin be sort of tied to the success of Bitcoin itself. 510 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:16,000 Yeah, that's great. 511 00:20:16,580 --> 00:20:17,600 So I think that's really exciting. 512 00:20:18,340 --> 00:20:19,460 So good stuff. 513 00:20:19,940 --> 00:20:21,140 Good stuff from Steak and Shake. 514 00:20:21,140 --> 00:20:24,800 I definitely wanted to follow up on 515 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,820 some of the ideas we talked about on the last show 516 00:20:27,820 --> 00:20:30,680 and we talked about the night before at the Builder event 517 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,640 when we had Pink Owl Coffee come here 518 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:33,860 I went to Pink Owl yesterday 519 00:20:33,860 --> 00:20:38,060 we've all done a lot of follow up 520 00:20:38,060 --> 00:20:42,260 I was going to hang out with Bob 521 00:20:42,260 --> 00:20:45,260 and I was like, let's just go meet at Pink Owl 522 00:20:45,260 --> 00:20:49,500 he sort of suggested it because we were going to hang somewhere up there 523 00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:52,460 so he was hanging out at Pinkall 524 00:20:52,460 --> 00:20:54,060 he'd already sort of bought his 525 00:20:54,060 --> 00:20:56,180 lunch and coffee 526 00:20:56,180 --> 00:20:57,820 at the time I'd arrived 527 00:20:57,820 --> 00:21:00,200 so I was like hey I'm gonna 528 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:01,880 go get a coffee or whatever 529 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,260 Cortado so I walk up there 530 00:21:04,260 --> 00:21:06,400 and order the thing 531 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:06,680 and 532 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,300 I was like hey I heard I could pay him Bitcoin 533 00:21:10,300 --> 00:21:12,340 is that right? And the person was like yes yes 534 00:21:12,340 --> 00:21:14,340 you can of course and then they kind of already knew 535 00:21:14,340 --> 00:21:16,320 about it they were already trained up on how to 536 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,480 get I think the square terminal to 537 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:19,960 show the QR code. 538 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:22,480 And I used Primal 539 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,460 as my wallet. 540 00:21:24,580 --> 00:21:25,120 Shout out million. 541 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,700 When I paid it, it was great. 542 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,280 It was super easy. It worked right away. 543 00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:31,220 It was all fast. 544 00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:34,220 The slight nit that we discussed 545 00:21:34,220 --> 00:21:35,180 is that it did 546 00:21:35,180 --> 00:21:38,340 the presentation didn't 547 00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:40,500 say SATS, but the wallet did say 548 00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:41,920 SATS. What did the presentation say? 549 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:43,660 It has the Bitcoin B symbol, right? 550 00:21:43,940 --> 00:21:45,440 Square shows the Bitcoin B symbol. 551 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:46,620 I thought that was the whole point. 552 00:21:46,620 --> 00:21:54,480 So it's a little disconnected to be like, I'm paying this thing and I'm reading this Bitcoin B symbol, this thing, and then I'm seeing on my side it shows sats. 553 00:21:54,740 --> 00:21:59,920 I understand why, but just a little inconsistency if somebody doesn't understand why. 554 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:14,660 I think more wallets and everybody kind of congregating on the same nomenclature and design and style would help new people who don't really understand all the nuance feel better and more certain than the thing they expected. 555 00:22:14,660 --> 00:22:17,640 What do you think would be best there, just to add the B symbol on both? 556 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,980 Seems rational to me, but I haven't done the whole design exercise. 557 00:22:21,180 --> 00:22:21,440 I don't know. 558 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:23,960 Steve or Matt or somebody else. 559 00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:24,740 Of course. 560 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:28,060 Seems natural. 561 00:22:28,260 --> 00:22:29,960 We actually had it almost a year ago. 562 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:33,680 Our episode in December, we talked all about the Bitcoin B symbol. 563 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:34,060 Cool. 564 00:22:34,980 --> 00:22:37,400 I know you could, he likes to say sat still. 565 00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:37,920 I didn't realize. 566 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:39,520 As long as the B symbol. 567 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:40,340 We've also talked about the show. 568 00:22:40,540 --> 00:22:40,940 Sat, sat, sat. 569 00:22:41,140 --> 00:22:41,620 No, no, no. 570 00:22:41,620 --> 00:23:04,180 So the evolution in thinking here is, you know, focus on the display, not what people speak. Don't police how people speak about stuff. You can say corn, coin, Bitcoin, bits, sats, whatever you'd like. Whatever feels natural and comfortable. I say Bitcoin sometimes, I say sats sometimes, but the display should be the Bitcoin B symbol. 571 00:23:04,340 --> 00:23:04,960 I agree with all that. 572 00:23:05,180 --> 00:23:05,940 Much simpler, more beautiful. 573 00:23:05,940 --> 00:23:07,740 And as we touched on in earlier episodes, 574 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,180 I like letting language evolve naturally. 575 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,100 I think Sats has kind of already evolved naturally, 576 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,280 but the bee symbol, I think, is spot on. 577 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:14,680 But I saw Joe. 578 00:23:14,780 --> 00:23:16,300 He came by and took hands. 579 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:16,860 Who's Joe? 580 00:23:17,020 --> 00:23:18,560 The owner of Pinkaw, yeah. 581 00:23:19,340 --> 00:23:20,100 He missed Builder. 582 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:22,840 He doesn't know Joe like we know Joe. 583 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,340 Not yet, but you should watch Haley's 21 and 21 interview with Joe. 584 00:23:26,420 --> 00:23:27,000 Oh, sick. 585 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:27,700 Yes, he sent me that. 586 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,260 So for anyone that wasn't here in person for Builder, 587 00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:33,900 you can watch Haley's 21 and 21 episode. 588 00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:41,840 So one question on this is we talked about, you know, I'm guessing Joe is a pretty hardcore Bitcoiner to be the early adopter, which is awesome for whatever his reasons are. 589 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:48,440 What I'm more curious about is we talked about how do you make sure your staff who may not have heard the good word yet, how they get into it. 590 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,420 Did, I don't know, did the staff, like, did he mention anything like now he's a Bitcoiner too? 591 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,740 Was he personally excited about it or just kind of like, oh yeah, my boss tells me to do this thing. 592 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:57,460 Like, I'll do this thing. 593 00:23:57,700 --> 00:23:59,400 We didn't, I mean, we didn't talk. 594 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:00,840 I didn't talk to the cashier. 595 00:24:00,940 --> 00:24:03,820 She didn't volunteer her like, you know, private keys or anything. 596 00:24:03,900 --> 00:24:09,020 you know i'm a customer coming in to make a transaction and she 597 00:24:09,020 --> 00:24:14,520 didn't you know she just made the transaction easy for me excited or not really she i mean i'd 598 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:20,140 say her face kind of like oh yeah like i know how to do that you know her face kind of lit up i'd 599 00:24:20,140 --> 00:24:25,860 say or she was like very welcoming and you know is it was a great experience but we didn't nerd 600 00:24:25,860 --> 00:24:31,280 out on bitcoin stuff if that's what you're asking okay it would be something to follow up with joe 601 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,220 about because I'm really curious about this question 602 00:24:33,220 --> 00:24:35,300 like you may have the owners that are really 603 00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:37,200 stoked but how to get 604 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,380 the staff excited 605 00:24:39,380 --> 00:24:40,140 too is really interesting. 606 00:24:42,220 --> 00:24:43,360 I've been talking 607 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:45,180 with folks on my 608 00:24:45,180 --> 00:24:47,120 Spiral team who were 609 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:49,120 working on a project to 610 00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:49,680 help 611 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,960 merchant adoption of Bitcoin 612 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,220 and ultimately customer adoption. 613 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,120 This will be independent 614 00:24:57,120 --> 00:24:58,340 of Square. 615 00:24:58,340 --> 00:25:06,380 Square will obviously be part of it, but there's merchants that use Toast and Clover and other point-of-sales solutions. 616 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:13,920 We want to be able to point them to ways to accept Bitcoin as well, which of course can include switching to Square. 617 00:25:14,780 --> 00:25:16,980 But that shouldn't be a requirement. 618 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,200 Some people maybe like their current solution. 619 00:25:19,820 --> 00:25:21,800 It's just a much bigger lift to switch. 620 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,020 so I actually tweeted out 621 00:25:25,020 --> 00:25:25,840 early this morning 622 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:26,220 like 623 00:25:26,220 --> 00:25:27,620 what are other solutions 624 00:25:27,620 --> 00:25:28,640 for point of sale 625 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:29,620 I already know a bunch 626 00:25:29,620 --> 00:25:30,400 I'm just curious 627 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,740 to crowdsource other ideas 628 00:25:32,740 --> 00:25:33,800 because one thing 629 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:34,220 that 630 00:25:34,220 --> 00:25:35,920 we'd like to create 631 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:36,560 from Spiral 632 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:37,600 is like a one page 633 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:38,480 leave behind 634 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:39,480 I forget if we talked about 635 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:40,260 this last week or not 636 00:25:40,260 --> 00:25:41,480 but I'll talk about it again 637 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,600 but we want to arm 638 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,520 the Bitcoin army 639 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,040 with simple material 640 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,380 that can help them 641 00:25:49,380 --> 00:25:50,620 sell their favorite merchants 642 00:25:50,620 --> 00:25:51,580 their local merchants 643 00:25:51,580 --> 00:25:52,360 globally. 644 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,520 And so 645 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,640 just a one-page leave behind 646 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,100 that makes the case. 647 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,660 We think it should focus on 648 00:26:01,660 --> 00:26:03,380 saving 3% fees. 649 00:26:03,660 --> 00:26:05,140 Like saving the fees. Like sell 650 00:26:05,140 --> 00:26:07,400 the merchant on the biggest value proposition 651 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:07,900 to them. 652 00:26:09,580 --> 00:26:11,340 And so we 653 00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:13,440 produced that and we're thinking of ways to how to 654 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,300 get that in the hands of people. 655 00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:17,300 Printed out, high-quality, consistent 656 00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:19,300 way for people to hand 657 00:26:19,300 --> 00:26:19,640 it out. 658 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,440 and 659 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,020 we have some other clever ideas 660 00:26:24,020 --> 00:26:26,180 too that may or may not 661 00:26:26,180 --> 00:26:27,220 be sitting on this table 662 00:26:27,220 --> 00:26:30,000 to help I'll let you guys 663 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,540 figure it out and the audience figure it out 664 00:26:31,540 --> 00:26:33,180 to maybe arm 665 00:26:33,180 --> 00:26:36,240 someone by the way called you a bitcoin miner 666 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:37,460 which I thought was cool 667 00:26:37,460 --> 00:26:49,281 alright nice I wonder if someone done that within Minecraft we talked to ago Yeah yeah yeah That was cool Because now they have an open source server 668 00:26:49,461 --> 00:26:49,781 That'd be good. 669 00:26:51,721 --> 00:26:54,201 But yeah, so we're thinking through ways. 670 00:26:54,341 --> 00:26:56,241 Like one way, there's a lot of other Bitcoin spaces 671 00:26:56,241 --> 00:26:58,021 in addition to Pristidia Bitcoin. 672 00:26:58,021 --> 00:27:00,361 Like can we arm those locations 673 00:27:00,361 --> 00:27:04,181 and then the people that go there and start there and grow? 674 00:27:04,181 --> 00:27:09,841 So that's an initiative we're thinking about doing. 675 00:27:11,181 --> 00:27:13,181 I like Matthew's suggestion, 676 00:27:13,361 --> 00:27:15,401 force the staff to listen to PBJ Weekly. 677 00:27:15,601 --> 00:27:17,321 That's clearly the answer. 678 00:27:18,641 --> 00:27:21,841 They can have a TV on in the cafe or whatever 679 00:27:21,841 --> 00:27:23,821 and just live stream us. 680 00:27:23,961 --> 00:27:24,801 One other thought on that, 681 00:27:25,541 --> 00:27:27,461 when you say you think the fees are what to focus on, 682 00:27:27,461 --> 00:27:28,561 I think the fees is a really good one. 683 00:27:28,661 --> 00:27:31,001 I'm curious, maybe it's worth testing or getting feedback. 684 00:27:31,001 --> 00:27:32,721 I mean, the other thing that makes a lot of sense to me 685 00:27:32,721 --> 00:27:34,381 just like save in Bitcoin. 686 00:27:34,661 --> 00:27:36,721 I think more and more people are hearing like the dollar is 687 00:27:36,721 --> 00:27:38,361 dying or my local currency is dying. 688 00:27:39,021 --> 00:27:40,841 Have you, I mean, you guys, I don't know. 689 00:27:41,041 --> 00:27:42,401 That's a good question. Yeah. 690 00:27:42,761 --> 00:27:44,861 That's one reason I'm bringing it up on the show 691 00:27:44,861 --> 00:27:46,561 is just to get other good ideas. 692 00:27:46,921 --> 00:27:48,801 I think we should talk about that because I mean Square started 693 00:27:48,801 --> 00:27:50,881 with that feature, the conversions feature. 694 00:27:51,981 --> 00:27:52,881 And I 695 00:27:52,881 --> 00:27:54,801 saw the numbers for, I mean, it's been in beta 696 00:27:54,801 --> 00:27:56,821 for a long time, but now it's 697 00:27:56,821 --> 00:27:58,641 live. And 698 00:27:58,641 --> 00:28:00,961 because Bitcoin acceptance doesn't 699 00:28:00,961 --> 00:28:02,701 go live until November 10th, but the 700 00:28:02,701 --> 00:28:03,941 conversions is already live. 701 00:28:04,781 --> 00:28:06,781 Convergence means your customers pay you with USD 702 00:28:06,781 --> 00:28:08,881 and then you convert some fraction 703 00:28:08,881 --> 00:28:10,161 of it into Bitcoin as a merchant. 704 00:28:10,401 --> 00:28:12,041 Super simple UI. You just say 705 00:28:12,041 --> 00:28:14,781 1% or 5% or 10%. I think you can go up 706 00:28:14,781 --> 00:28:15,961 to 50% now. 707 00:28:16,261 --> 00:28:18,561 I figured if Joe said it publicly. 708 00:28:18,741 --> 00:28:20,621 Anyway, Joe's a good 709 00:28:20,621 --> 00:28:21,981 saver. Let's just put it that way. 710 00:28:23,721 --> 00:28:24,141 And so 711 00:28:24,141 --> 00:28:26,241 yeah, I think 712 00:28:26,241 --> 00:28:28,061 we should definitely consider that as well. 713 00:28:28,541 --> 00:28:30,421 I think it's a super compelling argument 714 00:28:30,421 --> 00:28:31,741 to merchant. 715 00:28:31,741 --> 00:28:44,601 I mean, one difference was, well, yeah, it might be one of the best or the best tool to get the merchant to start, but it doesn't have the network effects of getting the engagement of customers. 716 00:28:45,321 --> 00:28:47,361 So we need to think about it in that light as well. 717 00:28:47,361 --> 00:28:53,121 Well, I just think from a human psychology perspective, it's a really big, like I think 718 00:28:53,121 --> 00:28:57,281 if you, the number of merchants who would say I would be interested in saving in Bitcoin 719 00:28:57,281 --> 00:29:01,621 if I'm paid in Bitcoin is going to be substantially higher than the number of merchants who are 720 00:29:01,621 --> 00:29:04,301 so orange-pilled, they say convert the USD, I'm getting into Bitcoin. 721 00:29:04,381 --> 00:29:05,541 I think it's just like a psychology thing. 722 00:29:06,001 --> 00:29:08,781 Like most people are not orange-pilled enough. 723 00:29:08,821 --> 00:29:11,021 They're like, oh, get rid of the dirty money and give me the good money. 724 00:29:11,361 --> 00:29:13,821 I think for a lot of people, it's like, I'll give you an example with my honey dealer. 725 00:29:14,141 --> 00:29:17,041 Like there's no chance in hell he would ever like turn on the convert to Bitcoin 726 00:29:17,041 --> 00:29:21,021 conversion feature. But because I like pay him in Bitcoin, he thinks it's cool. He's like, I want to 727 00:29:21,021 --> 00:29:25,021 save all or a portion of that in Bitcoin. And so I think it's just like a cool little thing. And it 728 00:29:25,021 --> 00:29:28,561 also kind of like subtly encourages them to be like, oh, if I want more, like I should encourage. 729 00:29:28,561 --> 00:29:32,581 Right. I think those are all good points. One thing we talked about is that 730 00:29:32,581 --> 00:29:36,581 there's no single group or source that's going to come up with 731 00:29:36,581 --> 00:29:40,421 the definitive sales pitch, right? The world's diverse, merchants are 732 00:29:40,421 --> 00:29:44,381 diverse, locations are diverse, et cetera. And even Bitcoin, what 733 00:29:44,381 --> 00:29:49,961 resonates with people very slow so yeah um i think we definitely agree there'll be multiple versions 734 00:29:49,961 --> 00:29:56,401 of this leave behind and like let's create like let's start with like the best two or three that 735 00:29:56,401 --> 00:30:02,281 we can think of publish that others and can contribute and then then uh the bitcoin advocate 736 00:30:02,281 --> 00:30:07,821 who's gonna print them out and go go uh hand them out can choose their own yeah you know what what 737 00:30:07,821 --> 00:30:12,401 fits their style best and what do they think will be the best sales pitch and they might learn they 738 00:30:12,401 --> 00:30:14,121 might think option A is the best. 739 00:30:14,421 --> 00:30:16,261 They go try it. It fails. They try option B. 740 00:30:16,341 --> 00:30:17,381 And they're like, that was the right one. 741 00:30:18,041 --> 00:30:20,401 So I think conversions are 742 00:30:20,401 --> 00:30:22,441 saving two different ways, like you pointed 743 00:30:22,441 --> 00:30:24,461 out. One is convert fiat to 744 00:30:24,461 --> 00:30:26,521 Bitcoin, but the other psychology 745 00:30:26,521 --> 00:30:28,441 is like, okay, whatever I receive in Bitcoin, I'll 746 00:30:28,441 --> 00:30:30,441 just keep that Bitcoin. So I think that's super 747 00:30:30,441 --> 00:30:32,261 cool. I'd like to follow up on 748 00:30:32,261 --> 00:30:34,601 what I was really stoked from our conversation 749 00:30:34,601 --> 00:30:35,541 last week about 750 00:30:35,541 --> 00:30:38,281 a Bitcoin merchant association. 751 00:30:38,661 --> 00:30:40,141 Not A, but many. 752 00:30:40,601 --> 00:30:42,381 Many Bitcoin merchant associations. 753 00:30:42,401 --> 00:30:44,701 like the Marin Bitcoin Merchant Association. 754 00:30:45,841 --> 00:30:51,001 So I had a good conversation with some other folks on my team about that. 755 00:30:51,261 --> 00:30:53,781 And I have some questions. 756 00:30:53,961 --> 00:30:57,421 So maybe you guys or maybe someone in the audience has additional ideas. 757 00:30:59,021 --> 00:31:01,841 One thing that resonated with me from last week's show 758 00:31:01,841 --> 00:31:04,661 is the local component and sort of grassroots. 759 00:31:05,321 --> 00:31:08,201 Like the Joes of the world from Pink Alla Coffee 760 00:31:08,201 --> 00:31:10,441 who are big Bitcoin advocates. 761 00:31:10,441 --> 00:31:11,501 They are a merchant. 762 00:31:11,501 --> 00:31:14,061 probably have vested interest in, 763 00:31:14,181 --> 00:31:15,441 or I mean, do have a vested interest, 764 00:31:15,521 --> 00:31:16,461 whether they know it or not, 765 00:31:16,461 --> 00:31:18,621 to get other merchants in the community 766 00:31:18,621 --> 00:31:20,121 to accept Bitcoin, 767 00:31:21,021 --> 00:31:24,801 which begets more customers having Bitcoin 768 00:31:24,801 --> 00:31:26,401 in a spending wallet on their phone 769 00:31:26,401 --> 00:31:28,421 and know how to do it and think about it. 770 00:31:28,421 --> 00:31:29,021 And it's a habit. 771 00:31:29,421 --> 00:31:31,461 So it just makes a lot of sense. 772 00:31:32,121 --> 00:31:33,481 So it resonated with me to like, 773 00:31:33,561 --> 00:31:37,401 how do we enable the Joes of the world to do that 774 00:31:37,401 --> 00:31:39,501 and then do it at a local level? 775 00:31:39,601 --> 00:31:40,961 That still resonates with me. 776 00:31:41,501 --> 00:31:43,381 But that's going to take time to grow. 777 00:31:43,981 --> 00:31:45,421 Months, years, etc. 778 00:31:45,721 --> 00:31:48,761 Maybe we convince Joe to do it, and he'll do it in Marin, 779 00:31:48,961 --> 00:31:50,841 and then others will sprout up. 780 00:31:51,001 --> 00:31:56,041 But a year from now, a wild success would be hundreds or thousands, 781 00:31:56,241 --> 00:31:58,621 but there's millions and millions and millions of merchants. 782 00:31:59,721 --> 00:32:05,221 For this one-page leave-behind that we'd like to make available ASAP, 783 00:32:06,121 --> 00:32:10,381 does it point to a website or a Facebook page 784 00:32:10,381 --> 00:32:11,341 or some kind of resource? 785 00:32:11,481 --> 00:32:13,141 And if so, it can't be, 786 00:32:13,301 --> 00:32:14,241 we're not in a position yet 787 00:32:14,241 --> 00:32:15,801 to like point to the local version. 788 00:32:16,041 --> 00:32:16,161 Right. 789 00:32:16,261 --> 00:32:17,521 Because there are zero 790 00:32:17,521 --> 00:32:18,781 and even a year from now, 791 00:32:18,821 --> 00:32:19,641 if there's like a thousand, 792 00:32:20,001 --> 00:32:20,701 there's not millions. 793 00:32:20,961 --> 00:32:22,281 So, I mean, there's not one 794 00:32:22,281 --> 00:32:23,181 that's relevant to 795 00:32:23,181 --> 00:32:25,281 if I'm an advocate in Iowa or something, 796 00:32:25,361 --> 00:32:26,901 maybe there's not the local Iowa chapter. 797 00:32:28,861 --> 00:32:30,161 So should there be 798 00:32:30,161 --> 00:32:33,041 a global website 799 00:32:33,041 --> 00:32:35,441 or resource page or whatever 800 00:32:35,441 --> 00:32:37,981 for Bitcoin Merchant Association 801 00:32:37,981 --> 00:32:39,201 and then 802 00:32:39,201 --> 00:32:41,921 I mean, it almost seems like yes 803 00:32:41,921 --> 00:32:43,021 for that reason. 804 00:32:43,781 --> 00:32:45,901 And then if I want to create the local chapter 805 00:32:45,901 --> 00:32:48,081 in the Presidio or wherever I live, 806 00:32:48,861 --> 00:32:49,961 can I just go to that global 807 00:32:49,961 --> 00:32:51,981 one and like either A, I can 808 00:32:51,981 --> 00:32:53,801 just use it. But if I have ideas to 809 00:32:53,801 --> 00:32:55,921 customize the experience for my 810 00:32:55,921 --> 00:32:58,021 community, I can just like click a button 811 00:32:58,021 --> 00:32:59,581 and it creates the website. 812 00:32:59,581 --> 00:33:01,201 Yeah, clone the website basically. 813 00:33:01,941 --> 00:33:03,621 And then have, you know, whether I'm 814 00:33:03,621 --> 00:33:05,441 vibe coding or whatever tools I'm using, 815 00:33:05,641 --> 00:33:07,461 I can, or like if there's this 816 00:33:07,461 --> 00:33:13,101 global resource of ideas and options, and I can just select, I like these three ideas. 817 00:33:13,101 --> 00:33:13,461 Right. 818 00:33:13,721 --> 00:33:18,561 Click them, they show up on my, you know, the Presidio Merchant Association website. 819 00:33:19,821 --> 00:33:21,721 What are your thoughts on these ideas? 820 00:33:22,261 --> 00:33:26,941 Yeah, I mean, overall, I like the idea of having some, you know, the leave behind messaging 821 00:33:26,941 --> 00:33:32,061 and then kind of having that available on a global or kind of at least national, but 822 00:33:32,061 --> 00:33:33,121 hopefully global website. 823 00:33:33,121 --> 00:33:38,981 it. I think one of the things that, and then obviously letting people customize it for their 824 00:33:38,981 --> 00:33:43,821 own needs sounds great. One of the things that I think is, let's say, under discussed, like I think 825 00:33:43,821 --> 00:33:49,381 it's the benefit of using Bitcoin in a kind of a merchant customer transaction is very, very 826 00:33:49,381 --> 00:33:56,681 obvious to the merchant in terms of saving the 3% fees. It's not clear why the customer should 827 00:33:56,681 --> 00:34:03,761 want to use it. So I think having some messaging around that, like what do we think is the best way 828 00:34:03,761 --> 00:34:09,821 to explain to merchants why their customers should or help them design programs that might work 829 00:34:09,821 --> 00:34:14,961 with their customers to encourage that spending. I think there's obviously, you know, things like 830 00:34:14,961 --> 00:34:20,341 the Fold app that gives you $5. That's one reason. But if you just kind of get like, here's $5 free, 831 00:34:20,441 --> 00:34:26,401 go spend it, that might not create the habit. So what are the ways to empower the merchants to 832 00:34:26,401 --> 00:34:28,921 explain to the community why they should be using it. 833 00:34:29,721 --> 00:34:31,581 Yeah, I think there's two marketing kits 834 00:34:31,581 --> 00:34:32,961 that need to be created here. 835 00:34:33,181 --> 00:34:35,181 One is for the Bitcoin advocate. 836 00:34:35,881 --> 00:34:36,561 People like us, 837 00:34:37,241 --> 00:34:39,301 people that are watching the show, 838 00:34:40,361 --> 00:34:43,021 and we're not necessarily, 839 00:34:43,301 --> 00:34:44,581 most of us would not be merchants. 840 00:34:45,341 --> 00:34:46,381 So their marketing kit for that, 841 00:34:46,441 --> 00:34:47,761 that would be the one-page leave-behind 842 00:34:47,761 --> 00:34:48,901 and a few other things maybe. 843 00:34:49,381 --> 00:34:52,801 Then the separate marketing kit is for merchants. 844 00:34:53,141 --> 00:34:55,121 And these would be for the Joes of the world. 845 00:34:55,121 --> 00:34:57,281 they'd be for the early adopters 846 00:34:57,281 --> 00:34:59,401 they're probably going to be 847 00:34:59,401 --> 00:35:01,541 Bitcoiners themselves because otherwise 848 00:35:01,541 --> 00:35:02,521 why would they do this? 849 00:35:03,081 --> 00:35:05,141 I mean, eventually they'll be 850 00:35:05,141 --> 00:35:07,441 like, they don't start 851 00:35:07,441 --> 00:35:09,321 as a Bitcoiner but they'll see the business 852 00:35:09,321 --> 00:35:11,261 interest in becoming more of a vocal 853 00:35:11,261 --> 00:35:13,061 advocate in their community but 854 00:35:13,061 --> 00:35:15,401 to start with it'll be Bitcoiners but I think 855 00:35:15,401 --> 00:35:17,141 there'll be a marketing kit for merchants 856 00:35:17,141 --> 00:35:19,281 and then that would include what you're talking about 857 00:35:19,281 --> 00:35:21,181 which is like, what are all the 858 00:35:21,181 --> 00:35:23,361 things that I can do as a 859 00:35:23,361 --> 00:35:25,061 merchant to like make 860 00:35:25,121 --> 00:35:26,901 customers aware they can pay in Bitcoin, 861 00:35:27,641 --> 00:35:29,701 why they should pay in Bitcoin, 862 00:35:30,201 --> 00:35:32,821 ideas like offering 21% off 863 00:35:32,821 --> 00:35:34,961 or very aggressive marketing tactics. 864 00:35:35,661 --> 00:35:38,021 Even providing the numbers behind it, 865 00:35:38,101 --> 00:35:40,381 maybe that's not as outrageous as it sounds. 866 00:35:40,501 --> 00:35:42,261 You're not going to go bankrupt if you do that. 867 00:35:42,761 --> 00:35:45,841 And maybe that varies by business category too. 868 00:35:46,001 --> 00:35:47,741 I mean, different businesses have different margins 869 00:35:47,741 --> 00:35:49,861 and different customer acquisition costs. 870 00:35:49,861 --> 00:35:53,701 So for one business, 21% off can make complete sense. 871 00:35:53,701 --> 00:35:55,761 for another, it would be, you know, idiotic. 872 00:35:55,881 --> 00:35:58,741 So I can imagine like that all being 873 00:35:58,741 --> 00:36:00,401 many variations there 874 00:36:00,401 --> 00:36:03,761 for different types of businesses. 875 00:36:03,961 --> 00:36:05,421 And so a couple ideas that come to mind, 876 00:36:05,521 --> 00:36:06,441 I'll come back to the association, 877 00:36:06,561 --> 00:36:08,421 but just on that, I mean, it'd be dope for Square 878 00:36:08,421 --> 00:36:10,121 to actually also give people the tools 879 00:36:10,121 --> 00:36:11,421 to be able to run their own rewards programs 880 00:36:11,421 --> 00:36:11,961 and experiment. 881 00:36:12,321 --> 00:36:13,281 And then also like highlight 882 00:36:13,281 --> 00:36:14,301 what's worked for other people. 883 00:36:14,381 --> 00:36:15,961 So it may be a services for your kind of business. 884 00:36:16,061 --> 00:36:17,081 We've seen this kind of thing work. 885 00:36:17,361 --> 00:36:19,521 And you can do that just like very like organic 886 00:36:19,521 --> 00:36:20,921 at first as part of an association 887 00:36:20,921 --> 00:36:22,641 with just a PDF or a website 888 00:36:22,641 --> 00:36:24,721 and saying, here's some case studies of what worked, what didn't. 889 00:36:25,021 --> 00:36:26,901 But eventually it'd be cool if I just, in the terminal, 890 00:36:27,061 --> 00:36:28,521 it's like, hey, I'm going to accept Bitcoin, 891 00:36:28,781 --> 00:36:30,761 click here to set up what we recommend 892 00:36:30,761 --> 00:36:31,601 as the rewards program. 893 00:36:32,621 --> 00:36:34,121 Real quick riff on that. 894 00:36:34,581 --> 00:36:36,921 So agree. Also, we've got to keep in mind, 895 00:36:37,041 --> 00:36:39,021 I mean, obviously, Square launching is amazing 896 00:36:39,021 --> 00:36:40,881 and it's my own company, 897 00:36:40,981 --> 00:36:42,521 so I hope they do really well. 898 00:36:42,521 --> 00:36:44,621 But we, as Bitcoiners, we need to think about 899 00:36:44,621 --> 00:36:46,081 other point-of-sale solutions too. 900 00:36:47,121 --> 00:36:49,041 We're also investors in startups too, right? 901 00:36:49,241 --> 00:36:50,721 So, like, 902 00:36:50,721 --> 00:36:53,121 for all the startups and wallets 903 00:36:53,121 --> 00:36:54,061 and point of sale solutions 904 00:36:54,061 --> 00:36:55,241 that have been developed so far 905 00:36:55,241 --> 00:36:56,301 and the ones to come, 906 00:36:56,561 --> 00:36:58,261 these are great opportunities for them 907 00:36:58,261 --> 00:37:00,741 to stand out, move faster than big companies. 908 00:37:01,801 --> 00:37:03,181 So that, you know, different, 909 00:37:03,401 --> 00:37:04,941 I'd love to see different experiments play out 910 00:37:04,941 --> 00:37:06,421 from different startups. 911 00:37:06,581 --> 00:37:06,841 I agree. 912 00:37:07,081 --> 00:37:08,041 And I think for startups 913 00:37:08,041 --> 00:37:09,941 and some startups I'm invested in, 914 00:37:10,001 --> 00:37:11,221 I know are thinking a little bit about this, 915 00:37:11,301 --> 00:37:12,081 but like, yeah, 916 00:37:12,141 --> 00:37:13,541 like just start with like a rewards program. 917 00:37:13,621 --> 00:37:14,541 So if you're going to accept Bitcoin, 918 00:37:14,781 --> 00:37:16,401 like how do you give the tools to that merchant 919 00:37:16,401 --> 00:37:18,521 to figure out what kind of rewards program to do 920 00:37:18,521 --> 00:37:19,781 and to actually just like execute it, 921 00:37:19,821 --> 00:37:20,581 just make it super easy. 922 00:37:20,581 --> 00:37:23,261 You click here and you get whatever, 10% off, 923 00:37:23,361 --> 00:37:24,061 and that's what we recommend. 924 00:37:24,581 --> 00:37:27,101 And you should be able to use AI to see what's working, what's not, 925 00:37:27,161 --> 00:37:28,461 and ship that up or down over time. 926 00:37:28,841 --> 00:37:29,501 So I think that's a really good idea. 927 00:37:29,841 --> 00:37:31,881 On the point with the Bitcoin associations, 928 00:37:32,201 --> 00:37:34,441 I'm envisioning a couple things. 929 00:37:34,561 --> 00:37:37,521 One, the GitHub type page where you can just open a pull request 930 00:37:37,521 --> 00:37:39,761 and anyone can get their... 931 00:37:39,761 --> 00:37:40,841 I don't know if you want to start, 932 00:37:40,921 --> 00:37:42,821 maybe you want to be a little more selective at first, 933 00:37:42,861 --> 00:37:43,561 or maybe you don't. 934 00:37:44,001 --> 00:37:45,481 I have an idea on how you could do the latter. 935 00:37:45,481 --> 00:37:48,801 But there's no reason there shouldn't be 936 00:37:48,801 --> 00:37:50,281 as hyperlocal as you want it to be. 937 00:37:50,281 --> 00:37:54,541 It could just be like on my street, you know, association or, you know, San Francisco or 938 00:37:54,541 --> 00:37:56,281 Presidio and all the levels in between. 939 00:37:56,761 --> 00:38:00,841 Maybe you start off a little bit more sort of like, you know, BitDev started off with 940 00:38:00,841 --> 00:38:02,721 New York and then with San Francisco and then a few others. 941 00:38:03,261 --> 00:38:06,781 But one thing that'd be really cool over time to grow into, or maybe you can start with 942 00:38:06,781 --> 00:38:12,421 this from day one, is give people the ability to do it, to register their chapter. 943 00:38:12,901 --> 00:38:16,961 And on the page that does it, either they choose it or the page does automatically give 944 00:38:16,961 --> 00:38:17,921 them a Noster identity. 945 00:38:17,921 --> 00:38:20,461 because what's really cool there is you could start saying, 946 00:38:20,541 --> 00:38:21,701 okay, there's infinite number. 947 00:38:21,801 --> 00:38:23,041 This is like the whole web of trust thing 948 00:38:23,041 --> 00:38:24,781 we've been talking about for well over a year 949 00:38:24,781 --> 00:38:26,261 is you could have filtering. 950 00:38:26,381 --> 00:38:28,501 You could say like, all right, anyone can start an association. 951 00:38:29,181 --> 00:38:31,781 But if I want to go and see which association 952 00:38:31,781 --> 00:38:32,961 I want to be part of or whatever, 953 00:38:32,961 --> 00:38:35,961 it'd be really cool to see kind of like little faces 954 00:38:36,721 --> 00:38:39,301 of like here are the Nostra keys that are running this one 955 00:38:39,301 --> 00:38:40,741 or that support this association. 956 00:38:41,281 --> 00:38:43,061 And then somehow that should all feed back 957 00:38:43,061 --> 00:38:44,541 into the BTC open map, 958 00:38:44,801 --> 00:38:46,281 which eventually should use Nostra as well. 959 00:38:46,281 --> 00:38:49,921 and every identity, every store that has a location on that map 960 00:38:49,921 --> 00:38:50,941 should also have a Nostra identity. 961 00:38:51,021 --> 00:38:53,641 So they can then publish out Nostra and everyone else openly 962 00:38:53,641 --> 00:38:55,081 what their deals are, et cetera, et cetera. 963 00:38:55,521 --> 00:38:58,521 But ideally what I'm envisioning is the open social graph 964 00:38:58,521 --> 00:39:00,041 so you can just see who's part of what 965 00:39:00,041 --> 00:39:01,681 and who's supporting which businesses. 966 00:39:02,281 --> 00:39:04,301 I think there's a lot of opportunities for network effects 967 00:39:04,301 --> 00:39:05,521 once you plug in Nostra. 968 00:39:06,001 --> 00:39:06,681 Yeah, interesting. 969 00:39:07,301 --> 00:39:09,961 We should definitely do more brainstorming around that. 970 00:39:10,041 --> 00:39:10,581 Yeah, for sure. 971 00:39:10,581 --> 00:39:16,521 So I remain super stoked about this. 972 00:39:18,201 --> 00:39:23,641 Each day goes by, I hear new ideas, they all build upon each other, 973 00:39:24,281 --> 00:39:29,461 and I'm just becoming more optimistic about Americans spending Bitcoin 974 00:39:29,461 --> 00:39:32,481 at square point-of-sale systems, 975 00:39:32,481 --> 00:39:39,381 and that'll create pressure on other point-of-sale solutions 976 00:39:39,381 --> 00:39:40,861 to come up with Bitcoin solutions. 977 00:39:41,001 --> 00:39:42,161 And just, I mean, I'm seeing also 978 00:39:42,161 --> 00:39:44,261 more of my startups that are in other countries 979 00:39:44,261 --> 00:39:45,441 are starting to think about this as well. 980 00:39:45,501 --> 00:39:46,481 It's like, hey, is now the time 981 00:39:46,481 --> 00:39:47,601 to start doing payment processing 982 00:39:47,601 --> 00:39:49,861 in Mexico or Brazil or Philippines? 983 00:39:50,121 --> 00:39:51,701 And, you know, historically it wasn't really working, 984 00:39:51,761 --> 00:39:53,341 but maybe this is going to be the kick that, 985 00:39:53,641 --> 00:39:54,701 and I will say, you know, 986 00:39:54,701 --> 00:39:56,221 I was always a little bearish on this. 987 00:39:56,281 --> 00:39:57,981 I always thought, and I still kind of do 988 00:39:57,981 --> 00:39:59,421 that like something like AI agents 989 00:39:59,421 --> 00:40:00,341 or something internet first 990 00:40:00,341 --> 00:40:01,461 was going to be what really takes it off. 991 00:40:01,881 --> 00:40:02,341 But who knows? 992 00:40:02,441 --> 00:40:03,341 Maybe this is the kick. 993 00:40:03,381 --> 00:40:05,061 I mean, the beautiful thing is 994 00:40:05,061 --> 00:40:06,441 it doesn't really matter. 995 00:40:06,741 --> 00:40:07,761 Everything is good for Bitcoin. 996 00:40:07,761 --> 00:40:08,041 Some of everything, yeah. 997 00:40:08,201 --> 00:40:08,381 Yeah. 998 00:40:08,381 --> 00:40:14,201 I also have been relatively bearish for the reasons you said, 999 00:40:14,421 --> 00:40:17,341 and especially for American buying coffee, 1000 00:40:17,661 --> 00:40:19,741 to me seems like the last use case. 1001 00:40:19,821 --> 00:40:20,821 Come on, it's the most important thing. 1002 00:40:20,821 --> 00:40:23,201 Because there are already good payment solutions. 1003 00:40:24,421 --> 00:40:29,401 But I think the key is the merchant is the one that has to get sold 1004 00:40:29,401 --> 00:40:31,421 because it makes sense for their business. 1005 00:40:32,201 --> 00:40:34,181 And then they'll be empowered, 1006 00:40:34,181 --> 00:40:36,861 or they'll be empowered, but also motivated 1007 00:40:36,861 --> 00:40:39,521 to sell their customers to spend in Bitcoin. 1008 00:40:40,101 --> 00:40:42,641 And now that we have really good user experience 1009 00:40:42,641 --> 00:40:45,221 for many spending wallet options, 1010 00:40:45,801 --> 00:40:49,141 there's still a first-time cost and hurdle 1011 00:40:49,141 --> 00:40:53,081 for a normal person to get Bitcoin in a wallet on their phone. 1012 00:40:53,261 --> 00:40:54,221 It's not that bad. 1013 00:40:54,681 --> 00:40:56,501 And then the experience, once they have it installed, 1014 00:40:56,601 --> 00:40:57,821 is quite good, actually. 1015 00:40:58,121 --> 00:40:59,001 Can we actually pause there? 1016 00:40:59,041 --> 00:40:59,801 I want to talk about something. 1017 00:40:59,801 --> 00:41:02,421 I was a little bit disappointed and shocked this week 1018 00:41:02,421 --> 00:41:04,061 for a number of reasons. 1019 00:41:04,181 --> 00:41:08,081 So, not to shift us all the way to the NBA, but on Monday... 1020 00:41:08,081 --> 00:41:08,721 Nice. 1021 00:41:09,181 --> 00:41:09,801 Great transition. 1022 00:41:10,861 --> 00:41:13,541 I'm curious to see how Draymond fits into... 1023 00:41:13,541 --> 00:41:14,261 We're getting there. 1024 00:41:14,841 --> 00:41:19,941 So, on Monday, I went to see the Grizzlies-Warriors game. 1025 00:41:20,921 --> 00:41:21,461 Very exciting. 1026 00:41:21,581 --> 00:41:21,821 I'm sorry. 1027 00:41:22,261 --> 00:41:22,461 Yeah. 1028 00:41:23,121 --> 00:41:24,801 I'm sorry about the outcome for you. 1029 00:41:25,281 --> 00:41:26,901 We lost, but I had a couple of takeaways. 1030 00:41:27,121 --> 00:41:29,141 You know, one takeaway, the Warriors looked good overall. 1031 00:41:29,261 --> 00:41:30,121 Very balanced scoring. 1032 00:41:30,721 --> 00:41:31,921 The Grizzlies, I mean, Ja's nice. 1033 00:41:31,961 --> 00:41:32,581 He's always nice. 1034 00:41:32,581 --> 00:41:34,481 but until we get a center 1035 00:41:34,481 --> 00:41:36,641 or until we get ED or BC back 1036 00:41:36,641 --> 00:41:37,601 we don't have any rebounding 1037 00:41:37,601 --> 00:41:38,401 it is what it is 1038 00:41:38,401 --> 00:41:39,241 we're still 3-2 1039 00:41:39,241 --> 00:41:40,801 but yeah 1040 00:41:40,801 --> 00:41:41,941 the Warriors look nice 1041 00:41:41,941 --> 00:41:43,281 my second takeaway is that 1042 00:41:43,281 --> 00:41:45,221 Draymond Green is a piece of absolute trash 1043 00:41:45,221 --> 00:41:46,781 like fuck that guy 1044 00:41:46,781 --> 00:41:47,421 like dude 1045 00:41:47,421 --> 00:41:48,701 I'd never like 1046 00:41:48,701 --> 00:41:49,681 I generally like the Warriors 1047 00:41:49,681 --> 00:41:50,641 I'd never like understood 1048 00:41:50,641 --> 00:41:51,561 why people didn't like Draymond 1049 00:41:51,561 --> 00:41:54,081 he went behind on one of our players 1050 00:41:54,081 --> 00:41:55,301 and like literally took his legs out 1051 00:41:55,301 --> 00:41:56,181 from under him while he was going out 1052 00:41:56,181 --> 00:41:57,321 like a dangerous play 1053 00:41:57,321 --> 00:41:58,781 like the kind of play that could end someone's career 1054 00:41:58,781 --> 00:42:00,061 and like okay 1055 00:42:00,061 --> 00:42:00,981 sometimes you hard foul 1056 00:42:00,981 --> 00:42:01,601 you didn't mean to 1057 00:42:01,601 --> 00:42:02,541 like if he had come over 1058 00:42:02,541 --> 00:42:03,381 and dap the dude up, whatever. 1059 00:42:03,661 --> 00:42:05,721 No, first of all, it was a flagrant one. 1060 00:42:05,821 --> 00:42:06,581 It should have been a flagrant two. 1061 00:42:06,721 --> 00:42:07,961 Like that dude shouldn't even be in the league. 1062 00:42:08,341 --> 00:42:10,861 So he comes over and then he starts showboating 1063 00:42:10,861 --> 00:42:12,661 and taunting and laughing about it. 1064 00:42:12,681 --> 00:42:14,341 I'm like, dude, you could have ended a guy's career 1065 00:42:14,341 --> 00:42:17,401 and you're laughing like trash, absolute trash. 1066 00:42:17,641 --> 00:42:18,381 So that's my thought on Draymond. 1067 00:42:18,641 --> 00:42:22,901 But number three is the guy that I went with, 1068 00:42:24,121 --> 00:42:25,521 you know, and if he's listening, 1069 00:42:25,621 --> 00:42:26,841 I'm not going to dox you and, you know, 1070 00:42:26,901 --> 00:42:28,041 shout out to you, you know who you are, 1071 00:42:28,481 --> 00:42:30,281 but someone that's been in Bitcoin a long time, 1072 00:42:30,521 --> 00:42:31,081 a long time. 1073 00:42:31,081 --> 00:42:35,141 and you know i grabbed the tickets and i was like you know just you can you can get send me max at 1074 00:42:35,141 --> 00:42:40,101 get albi.com and you know he comes back and yeah i certainly don't think this homie's trying to 1075 00:42:40,101 --> 00:42:44,621 stiff you but i'm like man man hey what's going on and he comes by and he's like look i'm trying 1076 00:42:44,621 --> 00:42:48,081 to get my albi to work it's really tricky it's like do i have to open a channel and it's like 1077 00:42:48,081 --> 00:42:51,421 okay and he's like but like i don't know if i really need a channel do i get my bitcoin back 1078 00:42:51,421 --> 00:42:54,961 if i close it i was like all right look if that's if you're not a power user for albi i get it i'll 1079 00:42:54,961 --> 00:42:58,401 use something simpler just go to cash app he's like well i haven't used cash app in a long time 1080 00:42:58,401 --> 00:42:59,761 I was like, okay, moon wall. 1081 00:42:59,881 --> 00:43:01,981 And then we had to get the, anyways, long story short, 1082 00:43:02,281 --> 00:43:04,181 like after like multiple back and forths, 1083 00:43:04,221 --> 00:43:05,461 like this person's not a noob. 1084 00:43:05,761 --> 00:43:06,561 I was just like, fuck it. 1085 00:43:06,581 --> 00:43:07,481 Here's like an on-chain address. 1086 00:43:08,081 --> 00:43:09,301 Just send me that. 1087 00:43:09,581 --> 00:43:10,301 It was disappointing. 1088 00:43:10,521 --> 00:43:12,361 And so I think that to me was, 1089 00:43:12,481 --> 00:43:14,641 it was a good realization of like, 1090 00:43:14,701 --> 00:43:17,401 we have a long ways to go of just like a normal person. 1091 00:43:17,501 --> 00:43:18,681 Like I totally forgot this 1092 00:43:18,681 --> 00:43:20,081 because I've been in Lightning for so long. 1093 00:43:20,581 --> 00:43:22,261 But yeah, it was disappointing to see. 1094 00:43:22,261 --> 00:43:27,821 Yeah, I mean, DK has also had problems in the past, 1095 00:43:27,821 --> 00:43:30,241 not you personally, but when you're trying to, 1096 00:43:30,941 --> 00:43:31,981 hey, I should just take this off. 1097 00:43:32,041 --> 00:43:32,401 I don't know. 1098 00:43:33,021 --> 00:43:33,701 What do you guys think? 1099 00:43:34,361 --> 00:43:36,021 We have a couple of funny comments, by the way. 1100 00:43:36,121 --> 00:43:37,421 We got one person saying for a second, 1101 00:43:37,481 --> 00:43:38,741 I thought we have two Maxes on the show. 1102 00:43:39,001 --> 00:43:40,621 And then Matthew says, 1103 00:43:40,661 --> 00:43:41,881 DK, if you need someone to talk to, 1104 00:43:41,961 --> 00:43:42,481 you know this segment. 1105 00:43:43,121 --> 00:43:43,441 Right. 1106 00:43:44,201 --> 00:43:44,561 Sports. 1107 00:43:45,121 --> 00:43:49,481 But you've had problems with similar experiences 1108 00:43:49,481 --> 00:43:50,881 where friends, colleagues, whatever, 1109 00:43:51,161 --> 00:43:53,521 you're trying to get them to make a payment to you 1110 00:43:53,521 --> 00:43:55,101 or you're trying to pay them or whatever, 1111 00:43:55,501 --> 00:43:56,841 and it falls apart. 1112 00:43:56,841 --> 00:43:58,841 I mean, we definitely haven't. 1113 00:44:01,161 --> 00:44:04,601 Yeah, I feel very uncomfortable today in this gear. 1114 00:44:04,921 --> 00:44:06,841 So please give me feedback. 1115 00:44:07,681 --> 00:44:08,981 I feel so uncomfortable, my gosh. 1116 00:44:09,061 --> 00:44:09,821 Yeah, all right. 1117 00:44:10,141 --> 00:44:10,721 Please give me feedback. 1118 00:44:10,721 --> 00:44:11,681 Grab it right there, TK. 1119 00:44:11,681 --> 00:44:12,321 What's going on? 1120 00:44:13,321 --> 00:44:14,261 Too much time on me. 1121 00:44:14,361 --> 00:44:14,441 No. 1122 00:44:15,741 --> 00:44:21,841 I mean, we have gone from there are no good user. 1123 00:44:22,581 --> 00:44:24,601 I couldn't, even if I know what I'm doing, 1124 00:44:24,661 --> 00:44:26,341 I can't demonstrate a good user experience. 1125 00:44:26,341 --> 00:44:31,621 So now we have multiple products that do deliver good user experiences. 1126 00:44:32,181 --> 00:44:33,341 That's a fact now. 1127 00:44:34,101 --> 00:44:38,821 But we're still not to the point where they all interoperate perfectly together. 1128 00:44:40,041 --> 00:44:44,161 And even the really good user experiences still have some orts. 1129 00:44:44,381 --> 00:44:46,421 But the progress has been phenomenal. 1130 00:44:46,781 --> 00:44:48,981 And the trajectory is really good. 1131 00:44:48,981 --> 00:44:56,121 So it's definitely, the timing is right to push for payments, get people doing payments. 1132 00:44:56,341 --> 00:45:02,841 And I do think normies can have a spending wallet on their phone. 1133 00:45:02,941 --> 00:45:06,521 I'm curious why you didn't recommend Phoenix as an option. 1134 00:45:06,701 --> 00:45:07,661 I've just never used Phoenix. 1135 00:45:07,861 --> 00:45:08,041 Yeah. 1136 00:45:08,341 --> 00:45:09,061 I mean, I'm not French. 1137 00:45:10,241 --> 00:45:10,901 I'm just kidding. 1138 00:45:10,961 --> 00:45:11,441 I like the French. 1139 00:45:11,681 --> 00:45:12,721 But yeah, I don't know. 1140 00:45:12,721 --> 00:45:14,241 Or, well, Lexi's not. 1141 00:45:14,401 --> 00:45:15,861 I think Lexi's still invite only. 1142 00:45:16,061 --> 00:45:19,881 But Lexi and Phoenix are both good user experiences as well. 1143 00:45:20,061 --> 00:45:22,621 Is Phoenix, don't you still have to pay to open a channel or no? 1144 00:45:22,621 --> 00:45:28,081 like you i mean basically you should just deposit like a few hundred bucks in your 1145 00:45:28,081 --> 00:45:34,881 wallet and then after that it's a breeze yeah it's like quite simple as long as the as long 1146 00:45:34,881 --> 00:45:38,641 as you're comfortable starting with like oh i want to put a couple hundred dollars spending 1147 00:45:38,641 --> 00:45:44,481 um do i have an issue no okay you're you're laughing at me i'm appreciating you've got it 1148 00:45:44,481 --> 00:45:49,941 kind of riding on your face just the right way i don't know anyway um if you so for the use case 1149 00:45:49,941 --> 00:45:51,881 of like you fund a spending wallet a couple 1150 00:45:51,881 --> 00:45:54,041 hundred bucks, I think Phoenix is great. 1151 00:45:55,061 --> 00:45:55,901 If it's like 1152 00:45:55,901 --> 00:45:57,941 oh, I received a 1153 00:45:57,941 --> 00:45:59,821 zap as a brand new user 1154 00:45:59,821 --> 00:46:01,741 then not too much. But to be clear for Phoenix, 1155 00:46:01,821 --> 00:46:03,881 you're talking about someone, and in this case this guy could 1156 00:46:03,881 --> 00:46:04,601 have been 1157 00:46:04,601 --> 00:46:07,701 a good example, but someone who's familiar 1158 00:46:07,701 --> 00:46:09,541 enough with Bitcoin, they already have some Bitcoin, 1159 00:46:09,721 --> 00:46:11,961 they are comfortable making an on-chain transaction to start. 1160 00:46:12,721 --> 00:46:13,701 This would be like, you know, 1161 00:46:13,761 --> 00:46:15,581 you have a couple hundred bucks, or I mean you have 1162 00:46:15,581 --> 00:46:17,941 maybe thousands on Coinbase or Cash App 1163 00:46:17,941 --> 00:46:19,221 and you want to put a couple hundred bucks 1164 00:46:19,221 --> 00:46:20,081 in a spending wallet, 1165 00:46:20,541 --> 00:46:23,261 then Lexi and Phoenix are good user experience. 1166 00:46:23,281 --> 00:46:23,921 Well, and that's the other thing. 1167 00:46:23,981 --> 00:46:25,361 I didn't even think to push on that. 1168 00:46:25,421 --> 00:46:27,421 If you have Coinbase or Kraken or whatever, 1169 00:46:27,601 --> 00:46:29,321 you should be able to also just do Lightning directly. 1170 00:46:29,901 --> 00:46:32,201 Yeah, if you have Coinbase app on your phone. 1171 00:46:32,401 --> 00:46:35,601 So there's almost two different user experiences 1172 00:46:35,601 --> 00:46:36,321 we need to solve for. 1173 00:46:36,421 --> 00:46:38,201 There's the person who understands Bitcoin. 1174 00:46:38,361 --> 00:46:40,861 And I, by the way, saw on Stacker News, 1175 00:46:41,041 --> 00:46:42,101 they did something really cool. 1176 00:46:42,101 --> 00:46:45,941 I did not go to BitConf this year. 1177 00:46:46,061 --> 00:46:47,061 I haven't actually ever been to TabConf, 1178 00:46:47,121 --> 00:46:47,641 but it sounds pretty good. 1179 00:46:47,941 --> 00:46:50,301 But anyways, they had a Stacker News booth there, 1180 00:46:50,381 --> 00:46:51,921 and apparently I think they were serving salsa, 1181 00:46:52,181 --> 00:46:53,241 and it sounded like a lot of fun. 1182 00:46:53,961 --> 00:46:55,621 But that was one of the, I read their takeaways, 1183 00:46:55,861 --> 00:46:57,381 and one of their biggest takeaways was there was, 1184 00:46:57,501 --> 00:46:59,561 even at TapComp, which is a fairly, I would say, 1185 00:46:59,601 --> 00:47:01,241 one of the more technically sophisticated conferences, 1186 00:47:01,801 --> 00:47:04,821 there were a huge number, maybe even a majority, 1187 00:47:04,821 --> 00:47:08,081 but if not a majority, a large percentage of users 1188 00:47:08,081 --> 00:47:09,521 who were super familiar with Bitcoin, 1189 00:47:09,661 --> 00:47:11,461 but still could not get a Lightning Wallet set up 1190 00:47:11,461 --> 00:47:12,301 to start with Stacker News. 1191 00:47:12,801 --> 00:47:14,901 So I just think, so there's two really interesting cases. 1192 00:47:14,981 --> 00:47:16,021 There's a lot of people that need that. 1193 00:47:16,201 --> 00:47:17,881 Like, I have some Bitcoin, how do I make an on-chain? 1194 00:47:17,941 --> 00:47:22,381 transaction. Maybe Phoenix is still the best. Hopefully Lexi soon. Albie's amazing, but you need 1195 00:47:22,381 --> 00:47:27,161 to be committed enough to open that channel. And I think there's some other opportunities. I know 1196 00:47:27,161 --> 00:47:30,241 folks we've been talking to, maybe this is their moment finally, just to get that note up really, 1197 00:47:30,321 --> 00:47:34,101 really quickly. But then I think, what about for the absolute noob who doesn't even have Bitcoin 1198 00:47:34,101 --> 00:47:37,681 yet? For me, I still, the only thing I really feel comfortable saying there is Cash App. 1199 00:47:38,821 --> 00:47:43,041 Do you guys agree or disagree with that? Well, again, I mean, for certain people, 1200 00:47:43,041 --> 00:47:47,401 that's a great choice. In others, it's not a great choice. If you're not American, 1201 00:47:47,401 --> 00:47:48,461 it's not a great choice. 1202 00:47:48,641 --> 00:47:48,661 Sure. 1203 00:47:48,901 --> 00:47:50,321 But for folks in the US 1204 00:47:50,321 --> 00:47:51,561 who don't have Bitcoin yet, 1205 00:47:51,841 --> 00:47:52,881 who you want to like, 1206 00:47:53,061 --> 00:47:53,841 like I... 1207 00:47:53,841 --> 00:47:54,301 There's still friction. 1208 00:47:54,521 --> 00:47:55,641 I mean, so it's a great choice 1209 00:47:55,641 --> 00:47:57,361 because it's a reputable brand, 1210 00:47:57,421 --> 00:47:58,461 has a long track record. 1211 00:47:58,701 --> 00:47:59,441 It works well. 1212 00:47:59,581 --> 00:48:00,241 It's got to, you know, 1213 00:48:00,661 --> 00:48:02,221 I mean, I can quibble in the UX, 1214 00:48:02,301 --> 00:48:03,361 but overall good UX. 1215 00:48:03,541 --> 00:48:05,681 It's a great, easy way to buy Bitcoin. 1216 00:48:05,901 --> 00:48:06,401 Yeah, exactly. 1217 00:48:07,001 --> 00:48:08,541 But you do have to KYC and onboard 1218 00:48:08,541 --> 00:48:09,801 and there's friction on onboarding, 1219 00:48:09,841 --> 00:48:11,101 but you pretty much have that 1220 00:48:11,101 --> 00:48:11,741 no matter what you do 1221 00:48:11,741 --> 00:48:12,961 if you want to buy Bitcoin. 1222 00:48:13,101 --> 00:48:14,701 So if you're truly new to Bitcoin 1223 00:48:14,701 --> 00:48:16,181 and you need to acquire Bitcoin 1224 00:48:16,181 --> 00:48:19,721 and your option that your choice to acquire is to buy, 1225 00:48:19,901 --> 00:48:21,201 then Cash App's a very good choice. 1226 00:48:21,341 --> 00:48:21,781 Yeah, cool. 1227 00:48:22,081 --> 00:48:24,021 But by the way, well, I had two thoughts on that. 1228 00:48:24,081 --> 00:48:25,181 One, I hope we get to the point 1229 00:48:25,181 --> 00:48:26,901 where you onboard into Lightning first. 1230 00:48:26,981 --> 00:48:28,121 I think that's going to be very powerful 1231 00:48:28,121 --> 00:48:29,401 for people that just want spending 1232 00:48:29,401 --> 00:48:30,941 and you don't even have to know what on-chain is. 1233 00:48:31,761 --> 00:48:33,701 The second thing is on Cash App, 1234 00:48:33,741 --> 00:48:34,941 I'm sure you guys have thought of this, 1235 00:48:35,241 --> 00:48:38,801 but what will be super, super dope is stage one, two, one, 1236 00:48:38,801 --> 00:48:40,461 when I just scan a QR code, 1237 00:48:40,541 --> 00:48:41,141 it didn't even ask me, 1238 00:48:41,161 --> 00:48:42,401 I'm going to have to buy Bitcoin first. 1239 00:48:42,621 --> 00:48:44,261 You can just click a box and it's like, 1240 00:48:44,321 --> 00:48:45,401 do you want to use the Bitcoin network? 1241 00:48:45,401 --> 00:48:46,721 and it does all that on the back end. 1242 00:48:47,121 --> 00:48:48,581 And then eventually what will be super cool 1243 00:48:48,581 --> 00:48:50,601 is when I have some Bitcoin in there 1244 00:48:50,601 --> 00:48:52,541 and eventually I can just do like, 1245 00:48:52,961 --> 00:48:53,321 I don't know, 1246 00:48:53,461 --> 00:48:55,041 like whatever the stable coin 1247 00:48:55,041 --> 00:48:56,761 or dollar solution is on Lightning Network. 1248 00:48:56,861 --> 00:48:57,741 I can just keep my Bitcoin, 1249 00:48:57,901 --> 00:48:59,741 do auto loans and that debate though. 1250 00:49:00,141 --> 00:49:01,921 But I mean, let's expand more 1251 00:49:01,921 --> 00:49:03,581 on what you're saying, the onboarding. 1252 00:49:03,781 --> 00:49:04,941 Like there's all kinds of different people. 1253 00:49:05,021 --> 00:49:06,221 Like how are you imagining people? 1254 00:49:06,421 --> 00:49:07,641 I mean, clearly the use case 1255 00:49:07,641 --> 00:49:09,061 that has been common is like, 1256 00:49:09,481 --> 00:49:11,201 I KYC and I take, 1257 00:49:12,041 --> 00:49:13,701 I connect my bank account 1258 00:49:13,701 --> 00:49:16,001 and put dollars in the exchange 1259 00:49:16,001 --> 00:49:17,321 and then I buy Bitcoin. 1260 00:49:17,501 --> 00:49:18,381 Yeah, so imagine... 1261 00:49:18,381 --> 00:49:20,321 But what are other cases? 1262 00:49:20,661 --> 00:49:21,821 So imagine, for example, 1263 00:49:21,961 --> 00:49:24,101 like right now when you go to a Square merchant, 1264 00:49:24,401 --> 00:49:26,741 they often will say Cash App pay as an option, 1265 00:49:26,841 --> 00:49:27,881 which I assume is no fees. 1266 00:49:28,021 --> 00:49:29,181 I mean, I know it's no fees for Square 1267 00:49:29,181 --> 00:49:30,101 since it's all internal. 1268 00:49:30,641 --> 00:49:32,781 And so I can just pay with Cash App. 1269 00:49:33,161 --> 00:49:35,001 What would be really cool is if they just say, 1270 00:49:35,001 --> 00:49:37,161 hey, I scan a QR code, 1271 00:49:37,301 --> 00:49:39,981 any Bitcoin QR code or any Square QR code, 1272 00:49:40,301 --> 00:49:40,841 and it just says, 1273 00:49:40,961 --> 00:49:42,721 do you want to save on or whatever? 1274 00:49:42,721 --> 00:49:44,821 Or like, I don't know what the UX would have to be 1275 00:49:44,821 --> 00:49:45,361 because the merchant, 1276 00:49:45,961 --> 00:49:47,681 well, if the merchant's already offering it to you 1277 00:49:47,681 --> 00:49:49,081 and it just says, hey, do you want to use Bitcoin 1278 00:49:49,081 --> 00:49:49,521 in the backend? 1279 00:49:49,901 --> 00:49:51,941 We can auto buy Bitcoin and just do that. 1280 00:49:51,961 --> 00:49:52,881 Or even just do it for you. 1281 00:49:52,921 --> 00:49:54,201 Like check a box and like we'll buy 1282 00:49:54,201 --> 00:49:56,321 and like send Bitcoin for you. 1283 00:49:56,861 --> 00:49:58,721 And then maybe then there's not like a learning opportunity 1284 00:49:58,721 --> 00:50:00,741 to suggest, oh, would you like to learn more about Bitcoin 1285 00:50:00,741 --> 00:50:01,401 and buy some or something? 1286 00:50:01,721 --> 00:50:02,041 I don't know. 1287 00:50:02,841 --> 00:50:03,421 Sorry, say that again. 1288 00:50:03,561 --> 00:50:04,481 I'm at a store. 1289 00:50:04,661 --> 00:50:06,301 Yeah, I'm at a store and there's a QR code 1290 00:50:06,301 --> 00:50:08,181 and I can just like scan it with Cash App 1291 00:50:08,181 --> 00:50:09,721 and like you can have the option. 1292 00:50:09,961 --> 00:50:11,381 Maybe I have to opt into the first time, 1293 00:50:11,381 --> 00:50:14,741 but it just buys and uses Bitcoin for me automatically. 1294 00:50:14,941 --> 00:50:16,561 I don't have to buy Bitcoin and then have that. 1295 00:50:16,721 --> 00:50:18,361 Oh, meaning I already have Cash App. 1296 00:50:18,381 --> 00:50:18,541 Yeah. 1297 00:50:18,881 --> 00:50:20,961 And I have dollars in my Cash App. 1298 00:50:20,961 --> 00:50:21,721 Yeah, you've already gone through KYC. 1299 00:50:21,721 --> 00:50:22,301 And I pay with dollars. 1300 00:50:22,421 --> 00:50:22,521 Yeah. 1301 00:50:22,821 --> 00:50:23,021 Okay. 1302 00:50:23,341 --> 00:50:24,261 And it's just all like, 1303 00:50:24,301 --> 00:50:25,581 I just scan any QR code 1304 00:50:25,581 --> 00:50:27,041 and just like the Bitcoin happens on the back end, 1305 00:50:27,081 --> 00:50:27,781 I don't even know about it. 1306 00:50:28,641 --> 00:50:28,781 Yeah. 1307 00:50:28,961 --> 00:50:30,421 I still want a great gifting flow. 1308 00:50:30,801 --> 00:50:31,281 Yeah, I agree. 1309 00:50:31,581 --> 00:50:33,901 Like that has not been solved, not even close. 1310 00:50:34,201 --> 00:50:34,641 I still, 1311 00:50:35,261 --> 00:50:37,421 and an example of that would be gift cards. 1312 00:50:37,621 --> 00:50:38,601 Like I still think it's crazy 1313 00:50:38,601 --> 00:50:40,881 that if I walk into like a CVS or Walgreens 1314 00:50:40,881 --> 00:50:43,941 or whatever store where there's a rack with Starbucks and Apple 1315 00:50:43,941 --> 00:50:47,081 and all these brands that people know with the gift cards, 1316 00:50:47,361 --> 00:50:50,241 why is there not a Bitcoin gift card there? 1317 00:50:50,341 --> 00:50:50,981 Well, there is, right? 1318 00:50:51,141 --> 00:50:52,061 Isn't that what Azteca does? 1319 00:50:52,121 --> 00:50:53,281 I don't think they do it in the U.S. as much. 1320 00:50:53,821 --> 00:50:55,361 They're not in the U.S. 1321 00:50:57,361 --> 00:50:59,061 No, they're not doing that. 1322 00:50:59,061 --> 00:51:07,341 You go to their website and you can pay to buy Bitcoin 1323 00:51:07,341 --> 00:51:10,681 and then you go to a local store like in Brazil or whatever 1324 00:51:10,681 --> 00:51:13,781 and then you show them the voucher. 1325 00:51:13,901 --> 00:51:14,961 Or actually, sorry, you paid that. 1326 00:51:15,381 --> 00:51:16,861 So I go to a website and I say, 1327 00:51:16,941 --> 00:51:18,461 I want to buy like $100 of Bitcoin. 1328 00:51:19,701 --> 00:51:22,381 Then I get, I print out a voucher. 1329 00:51:22,381 --> 00:51:25,541 I go to the local store with like a code. 1330 00:51:26,021 --> 00:51:27,021 I pay the local store. 1331 00:51:27,121 --> 00:51:28,961 Here's my cash, local cash. 1332 00:51:29,321 --> 00:51:31,221 And then that tells Azteco, 1333 00:51:31,401 --> 00:51:33,061 okay, give them the Bitcoin. 1334 00:51:33,321 --> 00:51:35,141 Do they not have the flow that you don't have to the website? 1335 00:51:35,221 --> 00:51:37,141 You can just take cash to the store and get, 1336 00:51:37,441 --> 00:51:40,001 I don't know, like they print off a voucher for you real time? 1337 00:51:40,001 --> 00:51:44,101 I think it's what I said. 1338 00:51:44,521 --> 00:51:46,361 So, I mean, I think that's also cool, 1339 00:51:46,481 --> 00:51:48,701 but they're not even gift cards in Iraq. 1340 00:51:48,821 --> 00:51:51,141 In fact, Million actually created gift cards in Iraq, 1341 00:51:52,241 --> 00:51:53,501 the founder of Primal. 1342 00:51:54,461 --> 00:51:57,441 And that was 2019. 1343 00:51:57,741 --> 00:51:58,721 It was right when I started at Block, 1344 00:51:58,781 --> 00:52:00,081 I tried that experience out, 1345 00:52:00,141 --> 00:52:02,601 and it was a brilliant onboarding experience. 1346 00:52:02,841 --> 00:52:03,501 It was fantastic. 1347 00:52:04,041 --> 00:52:04,921 It just worked great. 1348 00:52:06,161 --> 00:52:07,141 What happened to it? 1349 00:52:07,181 --> 00:52:07,861 Is it still around? 1350 00:52:09,421 --> 00:52:09,861 No. 1351 00:52:10,001 --> 00:52:14,461 he stopped working on that and then he started Primal 1352 00:52:14,461 --> 00:52:18,681 but the user experience was great 1353 00:52:18,681 --> 00:52:22,621 you had a gift card and then it gave you simple instructions 1354 00:52:22,621 --> 00:52:24,481 download this app from the app store 1355 00:52:24,481 --> 00:52:29,421 I think you entered a code or scanned a QR code or something like that 1356 00:52:29,421 --> 00:52:32,861 and then it deposited Bitcoin in your app 1357 00:52:32,861 --> 00:52:35,541 it was self-custody but it was dead simple 1358 00:52:35,541 --> 00:52:37,821 a normal person could do it 1359 00:52:37,821 --> 00:52:39,321 it's a hard business 1360 00:52:39,321 --> 00:52:40,001 as a startup though 1361 00:52:40,001 --> 00:52:40,361 because like 1362 00:52:40,361 --> 00:52:41,401 there's like 1363 00:52:41,401 --> 00:52:42,501 one or two distributors 1364 00:52:42,501 --> 00:52:43,401 they have all the power 1365 00:52:43,401 --> 00:52:44,141 they get all the money 1366 00:52:44,141 --> 00:52:45,121 they get all the margins 1367 00:52:45,121 --> 00:52:45,581 I see 1368 00:52:45,581 --> 00:52:46,441 it's like Blackhawk 1369 00:52:46,441 --> 00:52:47,021 yeah right 1370 00:52:47,021 --> 00:52:47,801 it's not a good 1371 00:52:47,801 --> 00:52:48,581 it's not a good business 1372 00:52:48,581 --> 00:52:49,261 to enter 1373 00:52:49,261 --> 00:52:51,281 certainly as a startup 1374 00:52:51,281 --> 00:52:52,061 and even as like 1375 00:52:52,061 --> 00:52:53,041 a larger company 1376 00:52:53,041 --> 00:52:54,941 but nonetheless 1377 00:52:54,941 --> 00:52:56,381 as a product 1378 00:52:56,381 --> 00:52:57,281 that I'd like to see 1379 00:52:57,281 --> 00:52:57,781 in stores 1380 00:52:57,781 --> 00:52:58,841 like that's missing 1381 00:52:58,841 --> 00:52:59,901 and it'd be fantastic 1382 00:52:59,901 --> 00:53:00,861 is it Blackhawk 1383 00:53:00,861 --> 00:53:01,421 I think you're right 1384 00:53:01,421 --> 00:53:02,541 has anybody talked to them 1385 00:53:02,541 --> 00:53:03,841 about Bitcoin 1386 00:53:03,841 --> 00:53:04,941 presumably a million 1387 00:53:04,941 --> 00:53:06,421 so 1388 00:53:06,421 --> 00:53:07,301 so he was using 1389 00:53:07,301 --> 00:53:08,541 one of the main distributors. 1390 00:53:09,121 --> 00:53:09,821 I don't know, but I mean, 1391 00:53:10,321 --> 00:53:11,261 I'm sure he's invested. 1392 00:53:11,341 --> 00:53:13,201 It was Canada only for his. 1393 00:53:13,201 --> 00:53:13,421 Okay. 1394 00:53:14,141 --> 00:53:16,121 And others may or may not 1395 00:53:16,121 --> 00:53:17,481 are doing that. 1396 00:53:17,621 --> 00:53:18,361 Millian, if you're listening, 1397 00:53:18,521 --> 00:53:21,141 maybe you can give us a little TLDR in the chat. 1398 00:53:21,341 --> 00:53:21,721 Right, yeah. 1399 00:53:22,361 --> 00:53:35,882 Speaking of Bitcoin businesses that I think maybe you or Steve may have proposed a Bitcoin savings bond as a new startup opportunity 1400 00:53:36,142 --> 00:53:38,982 Well, Haley was saying she had a bad experience. 1401 00:53:39,682 --> 00:53:40,082 With what? 1402 00:53:41,063 --> 00:53:42,862 With kind of U.S. savings bonds? 1403 00:53:44,063 --> 00:53:44,962 It was really frustrating. 1404 00:53:45,102 --> 00:53:46,762 I like those U.S. bonds. 1405 00:53:48,122 --> 00:53:51,082 She had a bad paper bond experience. 1406 00:53:51,082 --> 00:53:53,102 just traditional US 1407 00:53:53,102 --> 00:53:55,462 savings bond type things 1408 00:53:55,462 --> 00:53:56,282 with paper 1409 00:53:56,282 --> 00:53:59,262 but did you propose somebody should do this 1410 00:53:59,262 --> 00:53:59,823 with Bitcoin 1411 00:53:59,823 --> 00:54:02,762 yeah I mean why doesn't that exist 1412 00:54:02,762 --> 00:54:03,622 because it seems like 1413 00:54:03,622 --> 00:54:06,102 as a kid I recall 1414 00:54:06,102 --> 00:54:07,823 you go to your bank 1415 00:54:07,823 --> 00:54:10,582 a common gift to children or babies 1416 00:54:10,582 --> 00:54:11,823 or young children or whatever 1417 00:54:11,823 --> 00:54:14,282 you pay $500 1418 00:54:14,282 --> 00:54:16,043 you give the bank $500 1419 00:54:16,043 --> 00:54:18,182 you get back this piece of paper 1420 00:54:18,182 --> 00:54:19,982 that then 1421 00:54:19,982 --> 00:54:24,002 15 years later or whatever, you go back to the bank 1422 00:54:24,002 --> 00:54:25,922 and say, here's my piece of paper, and then you get $1,000. 1423 00:54:27,302 --> 00:54:29,782 So it has a built-in yield or interest rate 1424 00:54:29,782 --> 00:54:30,642 on the bond. 1425 00:54:31,642 --> 00:54:37,642 That was pretty compelling 1426 00:54:37,642 --> 00:54:40,182 in terms of, here's a gift I can give someone. 1427 00:54:41,342 --> 00:54:44,962 They're young. They can't screw it up. 1428 00:54:45,142 --> 00:54:45,862 They can't take this to Vegas. 1429 00:54:45,862 --> 00:54:49,582 They're time-locked, and then they get it in the future, and then they'll really 1430 00:54:49,582 --> 00:54:51,523 appreciate it in the future. That's like a nice gift 1431 00:54:51,523 --> 00:54:53,282 for like grandma or grandpa to give their 1432 00:54:53,282 --> 00:54:54,782 grandson or granddaughter. 1433 00:54:56,342 --> 00:54:57,402 Why isn't there a Bitcoin 1434 00:54:57,402 --> 00:54:59,563 equivalent of that? And especially because you can 1435 00:54:59,563 --> 00:55:01,302 take advantage of cool things with Bitcoin like 1436 00:55:01,302 --> 00:55:03,523 time and money. It's built into the protocol. You can 1437 00:55:03,523 --> 00:55:05,602 literally lock it up so no one in the world 1438 00:55:05,602 --> 00:55:07,622 can spend it until a certain date 1439 00:55:07,622 --> 00:55:08,023 or whatever. 1440 00:55:09,362 --> 00:55:11,602 A product wouldn't have to use that, but that type of 1441 00:55:11,602 --> 00:55:13,382 stuff is possible with programmable money. 1442 00:55:13,862 --> 00:55:14,842 I thought you were talking about 1443 00:55:14,842 --> 00:55:17,342 using the fact that the Bitcoin 1444 00:55:17,342 --> 00:55:19,063 forward CAGR is probably 1445 00:55:19,063 --> 00:55:24,502 20, 30, 40 percent, something much larger than people would expect as yield on a bond. 1446 00:55:25,302 --> 00:55:29,262 And so you could actually have a, you know, the headline number on the bond could be quite 1447 00:55:29,262 --> 00:55:31,563 high compared to how much money you're putting in. 1448 00:55:33,202 --> 00:55:36,162 Isn't that what we were talking about with like the bit bonds and the government was trying 1449 00:55:36,162 --> 00:55:40,182 to create their own little bit of a Bitcoin kicker to do that, blend Bitcoin in? 1450 00:55:40,182 --> 00:55:42,782 I remember that thing happening. 1451 00:55:42,862 --> 00:55:43,962 Was that about a year ago or so? 1452 00:55:44,063 --> 00:55:44,142 Yeah. 1453 00:55:44,202 --> 00:55:46,382 I do remember that being a topic of discussion. 1454 00:55:46,502 --> 00:55:47,622 I don't recall exactly what. 1455 00:55:47,622 --> 00:55:49,023 The thing that's always amusing to me, 1456 00:55:49,043 --> 00:55:50,462 and I get kind of why it works 1457 00:55:50,462 --> 00:55:51,982 because most people are not yet sold, 1458 00:55:52,082 --> 00:55:53,262 but it's always like, you know, 1459 00:55:53,322 --> 00:55:55,162 with MicroStrategy and BitBonds 1460 00:55:55,162 --> 00:55:55,942 and all of these things, 1461 00:55:56,023 --> 00:55:57,523 like the whole assumption is like, 1462 00:55:57,563 --> 00:55:57,982 to your point, 1463 00:55:58,023 --> 00:55:59,742 it's like you can get these really nice yields 1464 00:55:59,742 --> 00:56:02,942 just because like the Bitcoin CAGR is so damn high. 1465 00:56:03,043 --> 00:56:04,322 So it's always just kind of like, 1466 00:56:04,382 --> 00:56:05,582 hey, here's the product idea. 1467 00:56:05,942 --> 00:56:08,202 We take this incredible asset with incredible returns 1468 00:56:08,202 --> 00:56:09,882 and we water it down with some other crap. 1469 00:56:10,362 --> 00:56:12,082 And then we give you like the kicker on that. 1470 00:56:12,222 --> 00:56:13,442 And I get it because most people are used 1471 00:56:13,442 --> 00:56:15,202 to the old school stuff, but I don't know. 1472 00:56:15,202 --> 00:56:16,242 I mean, in a sense, it's, 1473 00:56:16,242 --> 00:56:18,882 I guess that's a very negative view. 1474 00:56:19,063 --> 00:56:21,502 I would recommend, yes, people first buy Bitcoin. 1475 00:56:21,882 --> 00:56:26,462 But if you aren't yet fully sold or you're still learning about it, 1476 00:56:26,482 --> 00:56:30,563 but you're like, look, I think SOFR this week dropped to four and a quarter. 1477 00:56:31,082 --> 00:56:34,762 So maybe spreads on SOFR in the range of five, six, seven percent. 1478 00:56:34,962 --> 00:56:35,462 What's SOFR? 1479 00:56:35,802 --> 00:56:37,162 The overnight lending rate. 1480 00:56:37,162 --> 00:56:39,422 The Fed just dropped a quarter point. 1481 00:56:39,782 --> 00:56:40,362 When was it? 1482 00:56:40,422 --> 00:56:41,462 Wednesday or Thursday or whatever. 1483 00:56:41,523 --> 00:56:42,102 I didn't see that. 1484 00:56:42,102 --> 00:56:47,802 So people are accustomed to like, you take SOFR plus a point or two or three. 1485 00:56:48,282 --> 00:56:55,402 So, you know, foreign change, you're talking 7% is what people see as like a reasonable interest rate, right? 1486 00:56:55,702 --> 00:57:01,722 And with Bitcoin, if you believe that it's going to be 20 or 30 or more percent per year, 1487 00:57:01,922 --> 00:57:05,702 you can actually build products that take advantage of that difference 1488 00:57:05,702 --> 00:57:10,122 and give people something much better than the maybe 6 or 7% they could otherwise. 1489 00:57:10,122 --> 00:57:11,622 No, I mean, I get it. 1490 00:57:11,762 --> 00:57:12,402 That's the other side. 1491 00:57:12,442 --> 00:57:13,802 That's the more positive charitable. 1492 00:57:14,642 --> 00:57:16,342 Also, I mean, there's just different use cases. 1493 00:57:16,543 --> 00:57:23,442 Like if I'm a grandpa and want to give my grandchild a gift that will bear fruit later, 1494 00:57:23,702 --> 00:57:26,822 I can't just like go to Coinbase or Cash App and buy Bitcoin. 1495 00:57:27,023 --> 00:57:28,482 That doesn't meet my needs. 1496 00:57:28,702 --> 00:57:28,822 Yeah. 1497 00:57:29,063 --> 00:57:35,682 So I'm happy if I'm getting, if I'm net net paying 10% fees or losing like the last 10% 1498 00:57:35,682 --> 00:57:38,302 gain over 10 years or whatever, so be it. 1499 00:57:38,302 --> 00:57:38,982 No, no, totally. 1500 00:57:38,982 --> 00:57:40,462 and I actually like that idea even more. 1501 00:57:40,563 --> 00:57:41,322 I get what you're saying. 1502 00:57:41,382 --> 00:57:42,582 It makes sense for the old world finance. 1503 00:57:42,862 --> 00:57:43,962 I was saying you had this idea 1504 00:57:43,962 --> 00:57:45,702 where they like take like 90% crap, 1505 00:57:45,802 --> 00:57:47,462 i.e. like dollars or treasuries, 1506 00:57:47,862 --> 00:57:48,922 mix that with a little bit of Bitcoin 1507 00:57:48,922 --> 00:57:50,142 so you get some of that sweet gagger. 1508 00:57:50,602 --> 00:57:51,802 I like this idea a lot. 1509 00:57:51,862 --> 00:57:52,622 I think this actually could flow 1510 00:57:52,622 --> 00:57:53,822 into your gifting idea too 1511 00:57:53,822 --> 00:57:54,822 of like a product 1512 00:57:54,822 --> 00:57:56,043 where it's just like one of the products 1513 00:57:56,043 --> 00:57:56,942 is just a time lock. 1514 00:57:57,322 --> 00:57:58,622 It's Bitcoin, but it's time locked 1515 00:57:58,622 --> 00:58:00,422 and like it's designed for grandparents. 1516 00:58:02,002 --> 00:58:03,802 I mean, it almost feels like 1517 00:58:03,802 --> 00:58:05,382 it could be part of the strategy suite 1518 00:58:05,382 --> 00:58:07,342 because they keep introducing new products 1519 00:58:07,342 --> 00:58:08,543 to new segments, right? 1520 00:58:08,543 --> 00:58:15,782 And obviously, this is a very different, grandma and grandpa are very different than trillion dollar institutional funds. 1521 00:58:16,382 --> 00:58:27,782 But they already are now introducing things that are intended for like, they're going after like high yield money market accounts for retail. 1522 00:58:28,142 --> 00:58:30,642 So this just seems like an extension of their strategy. 1523 00:58:31,482 --> 00:58:33,922 Did we ever, by the way, get the various specifics? 1524 00:58:34,023 --> 00:58:36,382 I know I shared a couple links and you're like, hey, it's already been known. 1525 00:58:36,382 --> 00:58:42,082 Do you feel like that's already well understood by everybody and it's just nonsense to revisit? 1526 00:58:42,502 --> 00:58:43,142 Which part? 1527 00:58:43,142 --> 00:58:48,662 The stretch, MicroStrategy's stretch product and the return on capital. 1528 00:58:48,982 --> 00:58:51,543 I don't think we've talked about the taxes on the show. 1529 00:58:52,102 --> 00:58:54,282 We talked about stretch, but we didn't talk about taxes. 1530 00:58:54,582 --> 00:58:58,282 So I don't know if, I don't think anything new has happened in this past week, 1531 00:58:58,302 --> 00:59:01,482 but I saw at least one or two threads that I think I shared at least one of them 1532 00:59:01,482 --> 00:59:07,742 where people were breaking down how the stretch product is much, much better than just the 10% 1533 00:59:07,742 --> 00:59:13,342 that you see as the headline number on the stretch yield. You could think of it as closer to 20% 1534 00:59:13,342 --> 00:59:20,602 because of the way taxes work on the specifics of how that product is structured, which I wouldn't 1535 00:59:20,602 --> 00:59:25,622 claim to be an expert or giving tax advice on this particular thing. But my understanding, 1536 00:59:25,742 --> 00:59:30,102 and I want to hear if this is your understanding too, my understanding is you take stretch and 1537 00:59:30,102 --> 00:59:36,202 stretch is nominally considered to be like a about a 10 percent yield it can be up or down it could be 1538 00:59:36,202 --> 00:59:41,002 10 and a quarter nine and three quarters but it's roughly you can think of it 10 percent for 1539 00:59:41,002 --> 00:59:45,662 simplification and let's say you put some amount you know call it 100k or a million bucks or whatever 1540 00:59:45,662 --> 00:59:53,142 into a stretch each year you get paid out that 10 percent so if you let's call it a million bucks 1541 00:59:53,142 --> 00:59:57,582 you get 100k of yield per year. 1542 00:59:58,602 --> 01:00:01,043 Because who doesn't have a spare million? 1543 01:00:02,582 --> 01:00:03,422 10k, whatever. 1544 01:00:03,862 --> 01:00:06,462 I was going to say, you toss a billion there. 1545 01:00:07,162 --> 01:00:07,862 It's cool. 1546 01:00:08,402 --> 01:00:09,942 You can scale up and down. 1547 01:00:10,082 --> 01:00:11,882 A spare 100 mil I get in yield. 1548 01:00:11,962 --> 01:00:12,362 It's cool. 1549 01:00:12,862 --> 01:00:13,043 Sweet. 1550 01:00:14,563 --> 01:00:15,002 Trillion. 1551 01:00:15,502 --> 01:00:16,382 Okay, sorry. 1552 01:00:17,622 --> 01:00:17,942 $10. 1553 01:00:18,462 --> 01:00:20,142 You put $10 into this. 1554 01:00:20,142 --> 01:00:24,023 I don't know if I got 10 bucks. 1555 01:00:24,082 --> 01:00:26,782 And at the end of the year, you've earned a $1 yield. 1556 01:00:27,063 --> 01:00:28,962 Every quarter you get 25 cents. 1557 01:00:29,602 --> 01:00:32,342 This is an example of making you feel more pleb. 1558 01:00:35,222 --> 01:00:38,182 It's all going to be a wash in the tax moment though. 1559 01:00:38,582 --> 01:00:43,602 The point I was making is this, let's call it $100. 1560 01:00:43,602 --> 01:00:43,682 $100. 1561 01:00:44,122 --> 01:00:44,442 Oh yeah. 1562 01:00:44,662 --> 01:00:49,482 If you get too small, the tax has kind of become a wash. 1563 01:00:49,482 --> 01:00:50,282 100K, 100K. 1564 01:00:50,322 --> 01:00:50,682 100K. 1565 01:00:50,782 --> 01:00:51,242 100K. 1566 01:00:51,563 --> 01:00:55,322 So your first year, you've earned $10,000 in yield, right? 1567 01:00:56,122 --> 01:00:59,563 But my understanding is I think that's return on capital. 1568 01:00:59,742 --> 01:01:01,402 That's not dividend income. 1569 01:01:01,582 --> 01:01:03,082 So it doesn't get taxed as income. 1570 01:01:03,362 --> 01:01:05,023 I don't know if it is taxed as something. 1571 01:01:05,082 --> 01:01:05,702 That's the claim. 1572 01:01:06,063 --> 01:01:08,302 I'd say since none of us are CPAs or lawyers. 1573 01:01:08,442 --> 01:01:09,302 Yeah, do your own research. 1574 01:01:09,402 --> 01:01:09,982 Do your own research. 1575 01:01:10,122 --> 01:01:12,543 But the claim is it's return on capital. 1576 01:01:13,063 --> 01:01:16,482 It would not be treated as income tax. 1577 01:01:16,482 --> 01:01:18,202 And as return on capital. 1578 01:01:18,543 --> 01:01:19,162 It's just cap gains. 1579 01:01:19,482 --> 01:01:21,842 No, it's not cap gains tax. 1580 01:01:21,982 --> 01:01:22,402 What is it? 1581 01:01:22,462 --> 01:01:26,862 It reduces your cost basis on the asset that you bought. 1582 01:01:26,942 --> 01:01:30,302 So if we spend $100,000 to buy it, 1583 01:01:30,722 --> 01:01:34,122 then the first year I get $10,000 out as my 10%. 1584 01:01:34,122 --> 01:01:37,162 And now my cost basis went from $100,000 to $90,000. 1585 01:01:37,462 --> 01:01:38,422 Wait a second. 1586 01:01:38,563 --> 01:01:39,402 What voodoo is this? 1587 01:01:39,402 --> 01:01:41,523 So at some point in the future, if I sell that, 1588 01:01:42,182 --> 01:01:44,422 I'm going to have to pay capital gains on the delta 1589 01:01:44,422 --> 01:01:46,142 between the $90,000 and the $100,000. 1590 01:01:47,142 --> 01:01:47,502 Right? 1591 01:01:47,502 --> 01:01:47,602 Right. 1592 01:01:49,482 --> 01:01:51,762 And this treatment is independent of stretch. 1593 01:01:51,882 --> 01:01:53,002 It just happens to be the stretch. 1594 01:01:53,002 --> 01:01:54,043 I'm not sure I understand this. 1595 01:01:54,382 --> 01:01:55,822 So, okay, let's go through this example. 1596 01:01:55,982 --> 01:01:56,502 I have 100K. 1597 01:01:56,563 --> 01:01:57,382 I get 10K out. 1598 01:01:57,523 --> 01:02:01,182 Now, when I sell it, I have 110K that I'm selling. 1599 01:02:01,402 --> 01:02:01,802 No, no, no. 1600 01:02:02,282 --> 01:02:03,782 You bought 100K. 1601 01:02:03,982 --> 01:02:07,142 If you sold it the day you bought it, you'd have no capital gains. 1602 01:02:07,442 --> 01:02:13,202 If you sold it six months after you bought it, you'd have basically no capital gains because it's basically like 100K. 1603 01:02:13,202 --> 01:02:14,082 It's supposed to stay at it. 1604 01:02:14,082 --> 01:02:14,642 It's supposed to stay at it. 1605 01:02:14,642 --> 01:02:15,882 In theory, it stays at 100K. 1606 01:02:15,882 --> 01:02:16,782 Yeah, okay, let's call it 100K. 1607 01:02:16,782 --> 01:02:17,782 I'll cut it down a little bit. 1608 01:02:17,862 --> 01:02:19,063 But basically, you have no cap gains, right? 1609 01:02:19,482 --> 01:02:27,302 Now you've taken your four distributions throughout the year, and now you have 10K that you've been given as yield, right? 1610 01:02:27,302 --> 01:02:29,582 Oh, and to be clear, that's separate. That's like cash. 1611 01:02:29,682 --> 01:02:34,342 That's cash that went to you, and you still own 100K in stretch. 1612 01:02:34,782 --> 01:02:37,642 But now your cost basis on stretch is no longer 100K. 1613 01:02:38,142 --> 01:02:39,682 It got reduced to 90K. 1614 01:02:39,762 --> 01:02:44,182 So if you ever sell it, you have to pay the cap gains difference between the 100K and the 90K. 1615 01:02:45,202 --> 01:02:45,642 Yeah. 1616 01:02:45,642 --> 01:02:53,182 And then the claim is that that can continue until the cost basis goes to zero, and then you can't keep doing it. 1617 01:02:53,422 --> 01:02:55,602 You can't create a negative cost basis. 1618 01:02:56,422 --> 01:03:04,602 So after that, but the claim then is still, so let's say after 10 years, I got 100K paid out to me. 1619 01:03:04,842 --> 01:03:05,962 My cost basis is zero. 1620 01:03:06,523 --> 01:03:09,342 Eleventh year, I got another 10K paid out to me. 1621 01:03:09,342 --> 01:03:15,162 the claim is that I only owe capital gains tax on that 10K, 1622 01:03:15,262 --> 01:03:16,262 not income tax. 1623 01:03:16,502 --> 01:03:17,802 So even in the 11th year, 1624 01:03:17,962 --> 01:03:22,722 it's more attractive than a typical bond or savings account. 1625 01:03:22,842 --> 01:03:25,742 So you're basically paying no tax the first 10 years, 1626 01:03:25,862 --> 01:03:27,242 assuming he pulled in the stretch. 1627 01:03:27,362 --> 01:03:28,002 Deferred tax. 1628 01:03:28,662 --> 01:03:28,922 Okay. 1629 01:03:29,262 --> 01:03:30,882 So you're not paying tax, but it's deferred. 1630 01:03:30,902 --> 01:03:32,802 The 11th year, you get another 10K payment, 1631 01:03:32,942 --> 01:03:35,063 and you pay that as cap gains on the 11th year. 1632 01:03:35,063 --> 01:03:37,122 And if I ever sell the stretch, 1633 01:03:37,122 --> 01:03:39,342 then I do have to pay cap gains. 1634 01:03:39,502 --> 01:03:41,862 On the difference between the zero and the value. 1635 01:03:42,382 --> 01:03:45,442 And the value or the cost basis. 1636 01:03:45,942 --> 01:03:47,563 Your cost basis has gone to zero. 1637 01:03:47,662 --> 01:03:48,622 If you've done it for 10 years, 1638 01:03:48,782 --> 01:03:50,602 your cost base has gone to zero. 1639 01:03:50,922 --> 01:03:51,202 Got it. 1640 01:03:51,242 --> 01:03:53,782 Now you have to pay capital gains on the whole thing. 1641 01:03:53,902 --> 01:03:54,382 I got you. 1642 01:03:54,422 --> 01:03:56,202 But remember, you had 10 years 1643 01:03:56,202 --> 01:03:58,402 where you weren't paying capital gains on that. 1644 01:03:58,523 --> 01:04:00,702 And so if you believe the dollar is going to hyperinflate, 1645 01:04:00,882 --> 01:04:01,382 it's just like, 1646 01:04:01,462 --> 01:04:03,282 oh, I'd much rather defer taxes to the future 1647 01:04:03,282 --> 01:04:04,482 and like paying like... 1648 01:04:04,482 --> 01:04:06,182 Differing tax is almost always a good idea. 1649 01:04:06,182 --> 01:04:06,722 A good thing, yeah. 1650 01:04:06,782 --> 01:04:06,962 Right? 1651 01:04:07,122 --> 01:04:09,662 You know, okay, so my high-level take on all this, 1652 01:04:09,742 --> 01:04:10,582 and I've said this many times, 1653 01:04:10,642 --> 01:04:12,282 not to be a broken record on the show, it's great. 1654 01:04:12,543 --> 01:04:14,202 I'm glad there are people out there that are, 1655 01:04:14,582 --> 01:04:15,982 you know, and like, hats off to Sailor. 1656 01:04:16,043 --> 01:04:17,102 He's a great financial engineer. 1657 01:04:17,642 --> 01:04:20,582 It's still, honestly, just going back to the, 1658 01:04:20,582 --> 01:04:22,162 kind of the purity of the white paper, 1659 01:04:22,282 --> 01:04:24,642 it makes me sad and frustrated that these, 1660 01:04:24,742 --> 01:04:27,462 I mean, I get it, and like, God bless, great job, 1661 01:04:27,602 --> 01:04:29,222 like, figure all the loopholes out. 1662 01:04:29,642 --> 01:04:32,622 But like, wouldn't it be wonderful to one day live in a world 1663 01:04:32,622 --> 01:04:34,402 where it's just like, just like the electronic, 1664 01:04:34,402 --> 01:04:37,662 there are no all these fancy taxes and loopholes. 1665 01:04:37,822 --> 01:04:38,582 It's like super simple. 1666 01:04:38,722 --> 01:04:39,822 Maybe there's no income tax. 1667 01:04:39,922 --> 01:04:42,482 Maybe it's just taxes on what you buy. 1668 01:04:42,563 --> 01:04:43,282 It's super simple. 1669 01:04:43,902 --> 01:04:44,063 I don't know. 1670 01:04:44,202 --> 01:04:46,842 It just, it frustrates me that you have to be an expert 1671 01:04:46,842 --> 01:04:48,682 to play these like tricky games. 1672 01:04:48,682 --> 01:04:50,702 And like, it's always a way to funnel money 1673 01:04:50,702 --> 01:04:51,362 from the poor to the poor. 1674 01:04:51,362 --> 01:04:52,802 We'll have to do an episode on taxes. 1675 01:04:53,063 --> 01:04:54,302 Yeah, no, I definitely don't. 1676 01:04:54,802 --> 01:04:56,962 Because I'll challenge you to come up 1677 01:04:56,962 --> 01:04:58,942 with a fair, simple, fair proposal. 1678 01:04:59,063 --> 01:04:59,162 Yeah. 1679 01:04:59,162 --> 01:05:00,023 Well, one simple, fair. 1680 01:05:00,202 --> 01:05:01,102 I don't think you'll be able to. 1681 01:05:01,142 --> 01:05:03,102 Yeah, what you're talking about is very regressive. 1682 01:05:03,102 --> 01:05:05,882 so if you pay tax on the things that you buy 1683 01:05:05,882 --> 01:05:07,122 you could also do a land tax right 1684 01:05:07,122 --> 01:05:08,023 that's like the one thing 1685 01:05:08,023 --> 01:05:09,322 it's like my whole thing is 1686 01:05:09,322 --> 01:05:09,922 I'm not an expert 1687 01:05:09,922 --> 01:05:10,742 I'm not saying I propose 1688 01:05:10,742 --> 01:05:12,142 I mean one idea is one day 1689 01:05:12,142 --> 01:05:12,942 imagine there's 1690 01:05:12,942 --> 01:05:13,902 we're all like disclaimers 1691 01:05:13,902 --> 01:05:15,482 imagine there's no heaven 1692 01:05:15,482 --> 01:05:16,582 imagine there's no country 1693 01:05:16,582 --> 01:05:18,402 like imagine there is no tax 1694 01:05:18,402 --> 01:05:20,582 that's where I think we could get to one day 1695 01:05:20,582 --> 01:05:22,402 and still there's better quality of life for everyone 1696 01:05:22,402 --> 01:05:24,322 because everything is so cheap in abundance 1697 01:05:24,322 --> 01:05:24,902 like that 1698 01:05:24,902 --> 01:05:26,322 that's a world that we could shoot for 1699 01:05:26,322 --> 01:05:27,642 but I also think 1700 01:05:27,642 --> 01:05:28,302 I think it's within reach 1701 01:05:28,302 --> 01:05:29,462 I don't think that's 1702 01:05:29,462 --> 01:05:31,742 I don't think that's purely fictional fantasy 1703 01:05:31,742 --> 01:05:32,762 I think it's possible 1704 01:05:32,762 --> 01:05:35,043 I certainly hope so, right? But then I think on the other hand... 1705 01:05:35,043 --> 01:05:35,662 Build what I want. 1706 01:05:36,322 --> 01:05:37,882 Yeah, just knocking into existence. 1707 01:05:38,882 --> 01:05:45,202 But I also think that without being a tax, whatever, I think you can look at kind of like our debate on IP. 1708 01:05:45,682 --> 01:05:49,722 It's like, I hate IP because it's artificial. It does not follow the flow of reality. 1709 01:05:50,543 --> 01:05:56,282 Information wants to be free. Trying to force information which wants to be free into IP makes absolutely no sense. 1710 01:05:56,682 --> 01:06:02,422 Similarly, I think with things like taxes, it's like, I'm not anti-taxes, but you should think about where does it actually naturally flow? 1711 01:06:02,422 --> 01:06:08,162 So for a state, right, like, and, you know, there are things that the state in theory for a while is probably the best thing to administer. 1712 01:06:08,602 --> 01:06:10,502 If you own land, property tax probably makes sense. 1713 01:06:10,582 --> 01:06:11,842 You can't run away from property tax. 1714 01:06:11,922 --> 01:06:20,122 And, like, if you are in a community, you should probably, whatever, pay for some of the basic services like the roads, which I know everyone's always curious who's going to build those, and the water systems and all that. 1715 01:06:20,422 --> 01:06:21,402 But, like, I don't know. 1716 01:06:21,543 --> 01:06:31,523 I just think the more we get away from fancy loopholes which end up just funneling money to the uber wealthy and, like, and people that are uber wealthy not because they actually did anything but just because they know all the tricks. 1717 01:06:31,882 --> 01:06:32,682 That's what's so frustrating. 1718 01:06:32,842 --> 01:06:34,002 That's when I come back. 1719 01:06:34,002 --> 01:06:36,442 People who have like a million dollars just experiment with stress. 1720 01:06:36,442 --> 01:06:36,582 Yeah. 1721 01:06:37,102 --> 01:06:39,023 Who are these people, Steve? 1722 01:06:39,282 --> 01:06:40,182 I don't even know. 1723 01:06:40,762 --> 01:06:42,882 But, you know, I come back to that. 1724 01:06:42,982 --> 01:06:43,582 That's what I love. 1725 01:06:43,642 --> 01:06:45,662 The simplicity of Martin Luther and his theses. 1726 01:06:45,802 --> 01:06:50,282 The simplicity of Satoshi and his theses, you know, is a world where, you know, yeah, 1727 01:06:50,282 --> 01:06:53,862 like you don't have to be on the inside to be able to thrive. 1728 01:06:54,642 --> 01:06:55,442 I'm not opposed to Texas. 1729 01:06:55,563 --> 01:06:56,402 I'm only opposed to government. 1730 01:06:59,582 --> 01:07:00,662 You heard it here first. 1731 01:07:00,662 --> 01:07:02,822 guys I know we're running short on time 1732 01:07:02,822 --> 01:07:04,982 I don't know what other topics you had but I wanted to make sure 1733 01:07:04,982 --> 01:07:06,262 we cover one thing 1734 01:07:06,262 --> 01:07:08,023 we had some very important things 1735 01:07:08,023 --> 01:07:10,942 well this is important on the Bitcoin Merchant Association 1736 01:07:10,942 --> 01:07:12,922 because we did not come back and follow up 1737 01:07:12,922 --> 01:07:14,543 on what I was most excited about last week 1738 01:07:14,543 --> 01:07:16,102 which is the advent calendar 1739 01:07:16,102 --> 01:07:18,822 so this idea of regardless our own community 1740 01:07:18,822 --> 01:07:20,902 and I had an idea of maybe a way for Square 1741 01:07:20,902 --> 01:07:22,662 to participate as well so I think it's cool 1742 01:07:22,662 --> 01:07:24,842 we do sort of the cash bomb every day we pick 1743 01:07:24,842 --> 01:07:26,742 a restaurant or whatever we all go 1744 01:07:26,742 --> 01:07:28,602 and spend our Bitcoin there together as a community 1745 01:07:28,602 --> 01:07:31,023 we get other people in the Bay Area to come out and do the same 1746 01:07:31,023 --> 01:07:32,982 maybe we also get them with the Nostra address 1747 01:07:32,982 --> 01:07:34,702 so people can just bomb the money for 1748 01:07:34,702 --> 01:07:35,922 every day of December 1749 01:07:35,922 --> 01:07:38,662 but I was also going to say we could do this for different communities 1750 01:07:38,662 --> 01:07:40,922 it could be cool, Square could get involved as well 1751 01:07:40,922 --> 01:07:42,842 as they're turning it on, they could do a matching program 1752 01:07:42,842 --> 01:07:44,523 or something, or whatever 1753 01:07:44,523 --> 01:07:46,642 hey we're going to cash bond $10,000 a day 1754 01:07:46,642 --> 01:07:47,762 for each of these merchants as well 1755 01:07:47,762 --> 01:07:50,563 or we match, whatever the community comes up with 1756 01:07:50,563 --> 01:07:52,462 and then you can really, I mean obviously 1757 01:07:52,462 --> 01:07:53,622 that's not going to scale forever 1758 01:07:53,622 --> 01:07:55,602 you need to bootstrap stuff 1759 01:07:55,602 --> 01:07:57,402 exactly, that's how you can kickstart 1760 01:07:57,402 --> 01:07:59,822 I mean, Square did a million-dollar giveaway today. 1761 01:08:00,282 --> 01:08:00,622 I didn't even know that. 1762 01:08:00,622 --> 01:08:02,382 I saw that in the chat, but I didn't read it. 1763 01:08:02,462 --> 01:08:03,002 What happened? 1764 01:08:04,762 --> 01:08:05,862 Well, it's the math. 1765 01:08:06,502 --> 01:08:10,622 The first 20,000 merchants that turn on, 1766 01:08:10,862 --> 01:08:12,563 I think it was the conversions feature, 1767 01:08:12,802 --> 01:08:15,842 gets $50 deposited over their account. 1768 01:08:15,922 --> 01:08:16,002 Yeah. 1769 01:08:16,702 --> 01:08:16,842 Cool. 1770 01:08:16,922 --> 01:08:17,402 Which is pretty cool. 1771 01:08:17,542 --> 01:08:18,523 So something like that, like to support the app account. 1772 01:08:18,523 --> 01:08:20,223 And then Cash App's done, like Cash App Fridays, 1773 01:08:20,342 --> 01:08:21,202 for many years. 1774 01:08:21,362 --> 01:08:23,802 So your proposal is definitely consistent 1775 01:08:23,802 --> 01:08:25,702 with what Cash App has done before. 1776 01:08:25,702 --> 01:08:26,102 Awesome. 1777 01:08:26,102 --> 01:08:28,262 I'll make sure the Square team 1778 01:08:28,262 --> 01:08:30,143 watches the segment 1779 01:08:30,143 --> 01:08:31,362 here's your idea 1780 01:08:31,362 --> 01:08:33,882 Spiral Sync doing 1781 01:08:33,882 --> 01:08:35,782 a project too I mentioned I'll make sure 1782 01:08:35,782 --> 01:08:37,422 that team hears about it 1783 01:08:37,422 --> 01:08:40,242 and then it also could be 1784 01:08:40,242 --> 01:08:42,462 you know a good idea for one of the 1785 01:08:42,462 --> 01:08:43,523 startups 1786 01:08:43,523 --> 01:08:45,882 that are targeting 1787 01:08:45,882 --> 01:08:47,262 merchants and spending 1788 01:08:47,262 --> 01:08:49,342 and maybe we could have like multiple companies come in 1789 01:08:49,342 --> 01:08:51,802 I just think if you can just like blow people out of the water 1790 01:08:51,802 --> 01:08:54,002 at these first you know whatever the first month 1791 01:08:54,002 --> 01:08:55,202 that's going to set a strong precedent 1792 01:08:55,202 --> 01:09:00,382 Can we talk about chain split stuff? 1793 01:09:00,542 --> 01:09:03,223 Because I'm aware that it exists. 1794 01:09:03,602 --> 01:09:07,563 I have not followed it closely, and I feel like Steve has followed this closely. 1795 01:09:07,602 --> 01:09:08,422 Can we talk about this? 1796 01:09:09,362 --> 01:09:09,702 Max? 1797 01:09:10,282 --> 01:09:12,442 Well, the drama continues. 1798 01:09:12,762 --> 01:09:20,802 But I think actually the framing, the current event is the BIP444 proposal, 1799 01:09:20,802 --> 01:09:24,583 which is a proposal to change consensus rules 1800 01:09:24,583 --> 01:09:26,422 and fork Bitcoin 1801 01:09:26,422 --> 01:09:28,302 and then it gets into the question of like 1802 01:09:28,302 --> 01:09:30,023 is it a soft fork or is it a hard fork 1803 01:09:30,023 --> 01:09:32,143 or is it a contentious fork 1804 01:09:32,143 --> 01:09:34,842 which I think is what you are interested in. 1805 01:09:35,382 --> 01:09:37,842 The reason why Max doesn't want to talk about this 1806 01:09:37,842 --> 01:09:39,922 is because it's just part of the continued 1807 01:09:39,922 --> 01:09:43,602 ocean drama, knots drama, core v30 drama 1808 01:09:43,602 --> 01:09:46,643 that this proposal is like 1809 01:09:46,643 --> 01:09:50,223 in BIP4444 is intended to 1810 01:09:50,802 --> 01:09:54,602 eliminate the spam and the bad stuff 1811 01:09:54,602 --> 01:09:58,002 and the things that people that care about Bitcoin as money 1812 01:09:58,002 --> 01:09:59,223 don't want in the blockchain. 1813 01:10:00,862 --> 01:10:02,523 All of us care about Bitcoin as money. 1814 01:10:02,723 --> 01:10:04,402 The things that that particular... 1815 01:10:04,402 --> 01:10:05,723 That's one thing that's lost. 1816 01:10:06,202 --> 01:10:09,523 The camp that is positioning themselves 1817 01:10:09,523 --> 01:10:11,302 as Bitcoin as money and anti-spam 1818 01:10:11,302 --> 01:10:14,602 think the other side doesn't care about Bitcoin as money, 1819 01:10:14,762 --> 01:10:15,542 but that's just wrong. 1820 01:10:15,542 --> 01:10:16,123 That's just false. 1821 01:10:16,942 --> 01:10:18,982 I would say the vast majority of people 1822 01:10:18,982 --> 01:10:22,183 in the core camp or the other camp 1823 01:10:22,183 --> 01:10:28,362 is that it's not possible to get rid of this. 1824 01:10:28,542 --> 01:10:30,982 Or the solution to get rid of it is the fees 1825 01:10:30,982 --> 01:10:34,002 that are already built into the white paper 1826 01:10:34,002 --> 01:10:35,302 and the original Bitcoin system. 1827 01:10:35,542 --> 01:10:36,542 That is the solution. 1828 01:10:37,002 --> 01:10:39,822 The problem right now with JPEGs getting the blockchain 1829 01:10:39,822 --> 01:10:42,143 is that people aren't spending their fucking Bitcoin. 1830 01:10:42,542 --> 01:10:44,242 We need more economic activity. 1831 01:10:44,882 --> 01:10:46,623 Everyone complaining should actually go out 1832 01:10:46,623 --> 01:10:48,422 and go to their steak and shakes 1833 01:10:48,422 --> 01:10:50,302 their square, you know, 1834 01:10:50,442 --> 01:10:51,382 merchants that use Square 1835 01:10:51,382 --> 01:10:52,482 and spend Bitcoin. 1836 01:10:53,042 --> 01:10:54,842 Go get them to get the merchants 1837 01:10:54,842 --> 01:10:55,802 to enable Bitcoin. 1838 01:10:55,982 --> 01:10:56,362 Yeah, and by the way, 1839 01:10:56,362 --> 01:10:56,982 I would take those guys 1840 01:10:56,982 --> 01:10:57,723 a lot more seriously 1841 01:10:57,723 --> 01:10:58,802 if they start posting receipts 1842 01:10:58,802 --> 01:10:59,702 of doing stuff like that. 1843 01:10:59,702 --> 01:11:02,962 Yeah, that's what all of us 1844 01:11:02,962 --> 01:11:03,782 can agree on. 1845 01:11:04,922 --> 01:11:06,183 Bitcoin uses money 1846 01:11:06,183 --> 01:11:07,802 and all of us should become advocates 1847 01:11:07,802 --> 01:11:08,302 and do that. 1848 01:11:08,442 --> 01:11:09,583 That's the healthiest thing 1849 01:11:09,583 --> 01:11:10,602 and like get off Twitter, 1850 01:11:10,882 --> 01:11:12,202 stop yelling at each other, 1851 01:11:12,643 --> 01:11:13,523 go in the real world 1852 01:11:13,523 --> 01:11:14,322 and spend Bitcoin. 1853 01:11:15,342 --> 01:11:15,502 All right. 1854 01:11:15,662 --> 01:11:15,982 I'm sorry, I'm not. 1855 01:11:15,982 --> 01:11:16,643 I've learned that. 1856 01:11:16,942 --> 01:11:18,002 I'm saying good things. 1857 01:11:18,143 --> 01:11:18,302 All right. 1858 01:11:18,422 --> 01:11:19,382 I'm not gin alpha. 1859 01:11:19,902 --> 01:11:20,662 But in any case, 1860 01:11:21,242 --> 01:11:22,782 the bit444, 1861 01:11:23,143 --> 01:11:25,502 the intention is to 1862 01:11:25,502 --> 01:11:28,643 prevent bad stuff getting in. 1863 01:11:29,162 --> 01:11:31,102 But it's a band-aid. 1864 01:11:31,263 --> 01:11:32,063 It has all kinds of holes. 1865 01:11:32,223 --> 01:11:34,002 I mean, immediately after it was proposed, 1866 01:11:34,263 --> 01:11:36,782 Peter Todd got a transaction mined 1867 01:11:36,782 --> 01:11:38,683 that is bit444 compliant 1868 01:11:38,683 --> 01:11:42,362 and it contains the entire text of bit444. 1869 01:11:42,362 --> 01:11:44,183 So it spams the chain 1870 01:11:44,183 --> 01:11:47,662 with a bit444 compliant transaction. 1871 01:11:47,662 --> 01:11:51,282 So we're not going to stop that, except with fees. 1872 01:11:51,583 --> 01:11:52,763 We need to use Bitcoin as money. 1873 01:11:53,362 --> 01:11:54,162 So that's that proposal. 1874 01:11:54,322 --> 01:11:58,982 But it raised the question of forks, which I think is what you specifically were interested in. 1875 01:12:01,183 --> 01:12:07,422 Long-time developer Waxwing had a post that gave his interpretation of these different forks. 1876 01:12:07,982 --> 01:12:15,902 I was just going to say, I think there's Bitcoiners who are interested in this topic of what happens in the case of a fork? 1877 01:12:15,902 --> 01:12:17,223 Do I need to make decisions? 1878 01:12:18,023 --> 01:12:27,662 Probably like being in self-custody means you can actually make decisions and being with the third party custodian means you have to follow along with whatever decisions they choose to present you at the time they choose to present you. 1879 01:12:28,042 --> 01:12:30,763 And that can have real economic impact. 1880 01:12:30,962 --> 01:12:31,063 Yep. 1881 01:12:31,402 --> 01:12:31,782 If you. 1882 01:12:31,942 --> 01:12:32,083 Okay. 1883 01:12:32,342 --> 01:12:33,623 You know, so I feel like it's like. 1884 01:12:34,143 --> 01:12:35,083 This isn't really. 1885 01:12:35,223 --> 01:12:35,462 Very personal. 1886 01:12:35,683 --> 01:12:35,782 Yeah. 1887 01:12:35,822 --> 01:12:36,042 People. 1888 01:12:36,302 --> 01:12:36,602 I agree. 1889 01:12:36,782 --> 01:12:39,962 And we don't have to get in the weeds either to answer this question. 1890 01:12:40,042 --> 01:12:44,782 And I agree this question should be relevant to anyone who owns Bitcoin should understand what we're about to talk about. 1891 01:12:44,782 --> 01:12:44,922 Yeah. 1892 01:12:44,922 --> 01:12:49,023 And we lived, some of us lived through this in 2017, 2018 era. 1893 01:12:49,462 --> 01:12:53,002 I think the three of us did and quite a few in our audience, but many people didn't. 1894 01:12:53,462 --> 01:12:56,302 And that's when Bitcoin Cash did fork off from Bitcoin. 1895 01:12:57,123 --> 01:12:59,723 And it did create two coins. 1896 01:13:01,042 --> 01:13:13,782 And what that meant, if you held your own Bitcoin in self-custody, then prior to the fork, then you actually got to, let's say you held, you know, 10 Bitcoin at the time. 1897 01:13:13,782 --> 01:13:18,162 you then had 10 BTC and 10 BCH. 1898 01:13:18,342 --> 01:13:20,822 At the time, that wasn't crazy. 1899 01:13:22,362 --> 01:13:23,662 10,000, you mean, right? 1900 01:13:23,782 --> 01:13:23,942 Yeah. 1901 01:13:25,902 --> 01:13:28,882 I didn't use like a million Bitcoin as my... 1902 01:13:28,882 --> 01:13:29,822 You just did, but okay. 1903 01:13:29,982 --> 01:13:30,763 21 million. 1904 01:13:30,962 --> 01:13:34,223 But you'd have 10 Bitcoin of each 1905 01:13:34,223 --> 01:13:39,662 and you can do whatever you want with them. 1906 01:13:39,723 --> 01:13:41,742 Now you have to be somewhat sophisticated. 1907 01:13:42,742 --> 01:13:44,143 First of all, you're already self-custodied. 1908 01:13:44,322 --> 01:13:45,623 You also have to run your own node. 1909 01:13:45,623 --> 01:13:52,302 And for Bitcoin Cash, you had to download Bitcoin Cash Bitcoin software. 1910 01:13:52,643 --> 01:13:57,002 You couldn't use Bitcoin Core's Bitcoin software because it only dealt with BTC. 1911 01:13:57,842 --> 01:14:01,643 So it required sophistication, but it really was empowering. 1912 01:14:02,202 --> 01:14:04,102 First of all, you're self-sovereign. 1913 01:14:04,183 --> 01:14:06,422 You're guaranteed that you got 10 of each. 1914 01:14:07,263 --> 01:14:10,402 You could immediately transact with each. 1915 01:14:10,402 --> 01:14:17,542 So if you were a believer in BTC and you thought BCH was a joke, you could immediately sell it on an exchange. 1916 01:14:17,683 --> 01:14:19,782 You could transfer it to an exchange and sell it. 1917 01:14:19,942 --> 01:14:20,482 And get more Bitcoin. 1918 01:14:20,662 --> 01:14:21,362 And buy BTC. 1919 01:14:21,442 --> 01:14:23,322 And buy more BTC or vice versa. 1920 01:14:23,502 --> 01:14:38,882 If you thought BCH was the right direction or whether as an investment or the right technology direction, vision for Bitcoin, you could sell, dump all your BTC and accumulate a lot of BCH. 1921 01:14:38,882 --> 01:14:41,782 But it's very empowering to do that. 1922 01:14:41,982 --> 01:14:43,442 Or you could just hold both and just like set it out. 1923 01:14:43,442 --> 01:14:44,162 Or you can hold both. 1924 01:14:44,202 --> 01:14:46,002 So the safe thing to do is hold both. 1925 01:14:46,263 --> 01:14:48,822 If you have conviction one way or the other, 1926 01:14:48,962 --> 01:14:51,742 then you can like dump some or all 1927 01:14:51,742 --> 01:14:53,583 and put it in the other coin. 1928 01:14:55,202 --> 01:14:59,342 And as we describe in the Bitcoin Consensus Analysis Project, 1929 01:14:59,602 --> 01:15:02,962 BCAP, which Lynn Alden and Crypto Ren and myself 1930 01:15:02,962 --> 01:15:03,902 worked on last year, 1931 01:15:04,623 --> 01:15:07,402 it's at the margin is what matters 1932 01:15:07,402 --> 01:15:10,782 for determining which coin sort of wins in the market. 1933 01:15:11,523 --> 01:15:16,123 And so it's those people who actually have the ability to sell 1934 01:15:16,123 --> 01:15:19,742 and, of course, the willingness to sell one fork 1935 01:15:19,742 --> 01:15:22,462 and then double up on the other fork. 1936 01:15:22,643 --> 01:15:24,982 That's an extremely powerful position to be in. 1937 01:15:26,502 --> 01:15:29,242 But if you're not willing to take that risk 1938 01:15:29,242 --> 01:15:31,083 or you don't have conviction, you just simply hold Bitcoin. 1939 01:15:31,563 --> 01:15:34,502 You just want to hope to keep holding whatever Bitcoin becomes. 1940 01:15:34,623 --> 01:15:35,662 You can just hold both. 1941 01:15:36,362 --> 01:15:39,482 Now, a lot of people hold Bitcoin with a custodian. 1942 01:15:39,742 --> 01:15:41,102 There you don't have this power. 1943 01:15:41,563 --> 01:15:42,802 You are not in control. 1944 01:15:43,023 --> 01:15:44,183 You can't split the coins. 1945 01:15:44,362 --> 01:15:45,442 You don't have access to both. 1946 01:15:45,542 --> 01:15:50,382 You can't immediately dump one of them at potentially premium prices. 1947 01:15:51,643 --> 01:15:55,023 And you're just beholden to that custodian's choices. 1948 01:15:55,023 --> 01:16:00,362 And what we saw in 2017-2018 is different custodians will make different choices. 1949 01:16:00,802 --> 01:16:05,042 Some acted quickly to make the other coin available to you to withdraw. 1950 01:16:05,563 --> 01:16:06,442 Others were slow. 1951 01:16:06,862 --> 01:16:08,263 Others never made it available. 1952 01:16:09,002 --> 01:16:10,302 Even like Coinbase. 1953 01:16:10,683 --> 01:16:11,263 Yeah, of course. 1954 01:16:11,263 --> 01:16:13,063 Because there was Bitcoin Cash, 1955 01:16:13,322 --> 01:16:13,962 Bitcoin Gold, 1956 01:16:14,102 --> 01:16:14,782 Bitcoin Diamond. 1957 01:16:15,602 --> 01:16:16,342 There were like... 1958 01:16:16,342 --> 01:16:17,662 ESV, wasn't that one? 1959 01:16:17,742 --> 01:16:18,602 Well, that came later, 1960 01:16:18,683 --> 01:16:20,742 but that came later off of a BCH fork. 1961 01:16:20,902 --> 01:16:21,462 But at the time, 1962 01:16:21,702 --> 01:16:23,542 forking off of BTC, 1963 01:16:24,183 --> 01:16:26,202 there were like 20 different versions 1964 01:16:26,202 --> 01:16:29,083 and it was a long tail, right? 1965 01:16:29,342 --> 01:16:30,862 So even Coinbase didn't make 1966 01:16:30,862 --> 01:16:31,982 most of those available. 1967 01:16:32,742 --> 01:16:33,462 So we all, 1968 01:16:33,462 --> 01:16:36,523 if we had any Bitcoin on Coinbase at the time, 1969 01:16:36,942 --> 01:16:37,742 we lost money. 1970 01:16:37,982 --> 01:16:39,362 We never got access to that. 1971 01:16:39,523 --> 01:16:41,462 We couldn't hold it, sell it. 1972 01:16:42,263 --> 01:16:44,282 And by the way, I actually think this is one of the great, 1973 01:16:44,342 --> 01:16:45,683 the more I hear you talking now, 1974 01:16:45,802 --> 01:16:47,322 one of the greatest risks to Bitcoin, 1975 01:16:47,442 --> 01:16:48,202 the more we're talking about this. 1976 01:16:48,523 --> 01:16:50,523 Whether or not you think this particular one 1977 01:16:50,523 --> 01:16:52,002 is an orchestrated attack against Bitcoin, 1978 01:16:52,202 --> 01:16:53,563 it's going to come at some point. 1979 01:16:54,143 --> 01:16:55,502 And I'm actually kind of concerned 1980 01:16:55,502 --> 01:16:56,802 because in those days, 1981 01:16:57,123 --> 01:16:59,302 there were a lot of whales that held in self-custody. 1982 01:16:59,302 --> 01:17:01,123 From what I've gathered, 1983 01:17:01,602 --> 01:17:03,302 it seems like a lot maybe have transferred to ETFs. 1984 01:17:03,462 --> 01:17:05,902 or something like that because for a variety of reasons. 1985 01:17:06,102 --> 01:17:07,063 They don't want to hold it themselves. 1986 01:17:07,162 --> 01:17:07,822 They don't want that risk. 1987 01:17:08,223 --> 01:17:10,402 But that becomes scary because as you have the ETFs 1988 01:17:10,402 --> 01:17:12,763 and the custodians like Coinbase control more and more, 1989 01:17:13,143 --> 01:17:15,282 maybe there were enough of the hardcore diehards 1990 01:17:15,282 --> 01:17:17,123 that really believe in the values in 2017. 1991 01:17:17,742 --> 01:17:18,942 Do we have enough in 2025? 1992 01:17:19,263 --> 01:17:20,523 Maybe. What about in 2030? 1993 01:17:21,422 --> 01:17:23,202 That's a very concerning trend. 1994 01:17:23,822 --> 01:17:25,442 I agree the trend's concerning, 1995 01:17:25,842 --> 01:17:28,623 but again, the analysis done in the BCAP project 1996 01:17:28,623 --> 01:17:29,602 I think is heartening 1997 01:17:29,602 --> 01:17:34,982 because even if the number of OG whales 1998 01:17:34,982 --> 01:17:37,662 that self-custody is reducing over time, 1999 01:17:37,802 --> 01:17:40,123 it's nowhere even remotely close to zero right now. 2000 01:17:40,123 --> 01:17:40,542 Yeah, that's true. 2001 01:17:40,822 --> 01:17:46,342 And those whales that self-custody have outsized power 2002 01:17:46,342 --> 01:17:48,763 in such a situation when there's a fork 2003 01:17:48,763 --> 01:17:50,702 because they can act quickly 2004 01:17:50,702 --> 01:17:53,782 and the Black Rocks and Coinbase of the world 2005 01:17:53,782 --> 01:17:56,102 are highly unlikely. 2006 01:17:56,802 --> 01:17:58,542 They have teams of lawyers. 2007 01:17:58,542 --> 01:18:00,322 like think about BlackRock 2008 01:18:00,322 --> 01:18:02,183 first of all they don't even hold the Bitcoin 2009 01:18:02,183 --> 01:18:04,202 so they aren't in control it's Coinbase 2010 01:18:04,202 --> 01:18:06,822 secondly it's not they don't own the Bitcoin 2011 01:18:06,822 --> 01:18:08,162 their customers do 2012 01:18:08,162 --> 01:18:10,763 they're highly regulated they have a gazillion 2013 01:18:10,763 --> 01:18:12,723 lawyers they're not going to like 2014 01:18:12,723 --> 01:18:14,202 on day one of a fork 2015 01:18:14,202 --> 01:18:16,763 dump fork B and double 2016 01:18:16,763 --> 01:18:18,683 down on fork A that would be suicide 2017 01:18:18,683 --> 01:18:19,902 what if they're wrong 2018 01:18:19,902 --> 01:18:21,922 the whole company 2019 01:18:21,922 --> 01:18:24,822 literally just disappear off the map 2020 01:18:24,822 --> 01:18:26,962 they're not going to do that they're going to move slowly 2021 01:18:26,962 --> 01:18:28,242 they're going to hold both 2022 01:18:28,542 --> 01:18:30,102 They're going to let things play out. 2023 01:18:30,482 --> 01:18:31,643 But you can imagine, right? 2024 01:18:31,702 --> 01:18:32,882 Like these guys are effective. 2025 01:18:33,023 --> 01:18:33,563 I'm sure like, 2026 01:18:33,763 --> 01:18:34,922 just imagine the state, 2027 01:18:35,123 --> 01:18:36,202 there was a big state attack. 2028 01:18:36,282 --> 01:18:37,282 I'm not saying they would do it overnight, 2029 01:18:37,422 --> 01:18:37,962 but like, fine, 2030 01:18:38,063 --> 01:18:39,263 they can't move for a year. 2031 01:18:39,643 --> 01:18:40,183 So be it. 2032 01:18:40,643 --> 01:18:43,242 If there aren't enough of the hardcore values, 2033 01:18:43,623 --> 01:18:45,382 self-custody whales left, 2034 01:18:45,542 --> 01:18:46,602 like it could be, 2035 01:18:46,683 --> 01:18:48,023 it wouldn't happen like on day one, 2036 01:18:48,023 --> 01:18:48,523 but that could. 2037 01:18:48,882 --> 01:18:51,643 So we need the self-custody whales 2038 01:18:51,643 --> 01:18:53,583 to still self-custody, 2039 01:18:53,862 --> 01:18:56,102 still be whales and still care. 2040 01:18:56,702 --> 01:18:56,982 Agreed. 2041 01:18:57,422 --> 01:18:58,482 Another concern though, 2042 01:18:58,542 --> 01:19:01,583 is like if there's an extreme state attack, 2043 01:19:02,143 --> 01:19:04,143 then first of all, the state can tell BlackRock 2044 01:19:04,143 --> 01:19:06,042 you have to choose ForkB, not ForkA. 2045 01:19:06,162 --> 01:19:06,542 Exactly, that's what I'm saying. 2046 01:19:06,623 --> 01:19:08,342 They can also, all the exchanges, 2047 01:19:08,583 --> 01:19:10,002 they can be like, you can't, 2048 01:19:10,342 --> 01:19:13,362 we don't allow you to have a free market. 2049 01:19:13,822 --> 01:19:14,223 Right, right. 2050 01:19:14,782 --> 01:19:18,563 And that's where tying this back into merchant adoption 2051 01:19:18,563 --> 01:19:20,462 and using Bitcoin as everyday money, 2052 01:19:20,462 --> 01:19:23,263 that becomes super important long-term, 2053 01:19:23,442 --> 01:19:25,982 even if all you hear about is number go up in investor 2054 01:19:25,982 --> 01:19:28,402 because that allows for price discovery 2055 01:19:28,402 --> 01:19:30,342 millions of times per day 2056 01:19:30,342 --> 01:19:31,422 throughout the world 2057 01:19:31,422 --> 01:19:33,482 in very decentralized ways. 2058 01:19:33,623 --> 01:19:34,982 You just go to Pink Owl Coffee, 2059 01:19:35,202 --> 01:19:36,542 you're discovering price. 2060 01:19:37,362 --> 01:19:38,322 And in that exchange, 2061 01:19:38,442 --> 01:19:39,922 you're determining what is Bitcoin. 2062 01:19:40,202 --> 01:19:41,842 Am I using fork A or fork B? 2063 01:19:42,802 --> 01:19:44,023 So two people. 2064 01:19:44,282 --> 01:19:44,942 Yeah, all right. 2065 01:19:45,342 --> 01:19:46,442 I'm winning today. 2066 01:19:47,502 --> 01:19:48,442 And so, you know, 2067 01:19:48,542 --> 01:19:50,782 of course that single exchange 2068 01:19:50,782 --> 01:19:52,002 between me and Pink Owl 2069 01:19:52,002 --> 01:19:53,223 isn't going to determine 2070 01:19:53,223 --> 01:19:54,143 the future of Bitcoin, 2071 01:19:54,683 --> 01:19:56,742 but the millions and millions 2072 01:19:56,742 --> 01:19:57,822 of instances of that. 2073 01:19:57,822 --> 01:19:58,342 That's the whole point. 2074 01:19:58,462 --> 01:19:59,042 Do matter. 2075 01:19:59,223 --> 01:19:59,322 Yeah. 2076 01:19:59,842 --> 01:20:17,704 So I think again anyone worried about spam anyone worried about BlackRock attacks or seed attacks we got to start spending money Do your part Get out there Convince merchants Spend Bitcoin for a long healthy outcome 2077 01:20:17,704 --> 01:20:17,904 I like that. 2078 01:20:17,904 --> 01:20:21,583 And further, you should be self-custodying. 2079 01:20:21,744 --> 01:20:32,784 And if you do self-custody, if you choose to hold both splits in a fork, both chains in a fork, it is a vote for both. 2080 01:20:33,123 --> 01:20:36,144 It is a vote of I don't know or a vote that either one is fine. 2081 01:20:36,144 --> 01:20:40,304 And I think you sort of made the comment like, oh, we'll wait and see. 2082 01:20:40,744 --> 01:20:44,544 If you don't have conviction, then you kind of have to take that position, I understand. 2083 01:20:44,964 --> 01:20:52,524 But if you can learn and build conviction about which one you think is the real Bitcoin, the one that matters, you actually can generate yield. 2084 01:20:53,064 --> 01:20:54,184 So you have more Bitcoin. 2085 01:20:54,304 --> 01:20:58,324 It's rare in the world that you can, in a fair way, generate yield on your Bitcoin ownership. 2086 01:20:58,424 --> 01:20:59,444 And this is one of the few. 2087 01:21:00,364 --> 01:21:00,744 Very good point. 2088 01:21:00,804 --> 01:21:02,404 And it is a sense of a vote. 2089 01:21:02,524 --> 01:21:04,904 I often hear people talking about voting and Bitcoin. 2090 01:21:04,904 --> 01:21:07,204 And they'll either apply, they misapply it, though. 2091 01:21:07,324 --> 01:21:08,083 They don't know it, though. 2092 01:21:08,123 --> 01:21:09,784 So hopefully they listen and learn here. 2093 01:21:10,044 --> 01:21:13,844 But one is miners, that miners have a vote somehow. 2094 01:21:13,844 --> 01:21:16,964 During the activation of a new consensus change, 2095 01:21:17,324 --> 01:21:20,324 there's this signaling process that's been done historically 2096 01:21:20,324 --> 01:21:21,784 through the Bitcoin Core software. 2097 01:21:22,764 --> 01:21:27,484 And it's when miners signal, yep, we're ready for this change. 2098 01:21:27,864 --> 01:21:34,384 Because to reduce safety risks in activating a new consensus rule 2099 01:21:34,384 --> 01:21:35,524 that has consensus, 2100 01:21:36,104 --> 01:21:38,224 you want miners to support it. 2101 01:21:38,364 --> 01:21:39,364 Because if it's split, 2102 01:21:39,804 --> 01:21:43,504 then you can get unintended forks 2103 01:21:43,504 --> 01:21:44,924 in a total disaster, right? 2104 01:21:45,284 --> 01:21:46,784 So there's this signaling process. 2105 01:21:47,064 --> 01:21:48,284 And so some people interpret that 2106 01:21:48,284 --> 01:21:50,324 as miners get to vote 2107 01:21:50,324 --> 01:21:51,784 whether we get that change. 2108 01:21:51,784 --> 01:21:52,944 And it's not a vote. 2109 01:21:53,304 --> 01:21:54,064 Because if they, 2110 01:21:54,304 --> 01:21:56,724 it's more like if they do signal, 2111 01:21:57,344 --> 01:21:58,644 first of all, the signal is just a, 2112 01:21:59,024 --> 01:21:59,623 trust me, bro. 2113 01:22:00,444 --> 01:22:01,224 It is. 2114 01:22:01,583 --> 01:22:03,704 They're signaling through the blocks they mine, 2115 01:22:03,704 --> 01:22:05,344 but they could be lying. 2116 01:22:05,764 --> 01:22:06,724 All they're saying is like, 2117 01:22:06,804 --> 01:22:08,104 we've upgraded the software 2118 01:22:08,104 --> 01:22:10,644 to support this activation of this change, 2119 01:22:10,744 --> 01:22:11,524 but they could be lying. 2120 01:22:11,664 --> 01:22:13,123 So it's total, trust me, bro. 2121 01:22:13,824 --> 01:22:15,744 But even if they're lying, 2122 01:22:15,844 --> 01:22:17,384 I mean, it's like, 2123 01:22:18,064 --> 01:22:19,864 by assuming they're telling the truth 2124 01:22:19,864 --> 01:22:20,804 and then doing it 2125 01:22:20,804 --> 01:22:21,964 and then reaching a certain threshold, 2126 01:22:22,083 --> 01:22:23,024 like 95%, 2127 01:22:23,024 --> 01:22:27,144 even though you're not assured that's true, 2128 01:22:27,424 --> 01:22:28,304 it's still safer 2129 01:22:28,304 --> 01:22:29,844 than not doing that process at all. 2130 01:22:29,984 --> 01:22:31,083 But that's all it is. 2131 01:22:32,583 --> 01:22:33,524 It's not a vote. 2132 01:22:33,704 --> 01:22:36,123 Because let's say that they don't reach a certain signal. 2133 01:22:36,464 --> 01:22:41,444 You can have economic nodes begin to adopt the fork 2134 01:22:41,444 --> 01:22:43,764 and basically campaign and say, 2135 01:22:43,884 --> 01:22:46,344 we're going to reject the blocks you're creating 2136 01:22:46,344 --> 01:22:48,404 that don't support this change you want. 2137 01:22:48,784 --> 01:22:52,004 So it's a very complex power struggle, 2138 01:22:52,284 --> 01:22:54,244 but it's not a vote by minors. 2139 01:22:54,244 --> 01:22:56,244 The other vote that's very common... 2140 01:22:56,824 --> 01:22:57,304 That's not a vote. 2141 01:22:57,664 --> 01:22:58,444 That's not a vote. 2142 01:22:58,664 --> 01:22:59,364 Thank you. 2143 01:22:59,864 --> 01:23:00,904 But often continues... 2144 01:23:00,904 --> 01:23:03,744 is this year with people, you know, 2145 01:23:03,784 --> 01:23:06,404 thinking that this spinning up running Bitcoin software 2146 01:23:06,404 --> 01:23:07,524 is a vote. 2147 01:23:08,024 --> 01:23:09,244 Like running a node is not a vote. 2148 01:23:09,544 --> 01:23:11,123 Running a node is not a vote. 2149 01:23:11,824 --> 01:23:14,324 And depending on what you're doing with that node, 2150 01:23:14,464 --> 01:23:17,884 it ranges from like inconsequential to very important. 2151 01:23:18,424 --> 01:23:21,224 And so like part of the knots drama, 2152 01:23:21,944 --> 01:23:25,444 people that are supporters of the knots side of this drama 2153 01:23:25,444 --> 01:23:28,064 love to tout the percentage of market share 2154 01:23:28,064 --> 01:23:30,004 that is running knots. 2155 01:23:30,004 --> 01:23:40,784 Now, I'll definitely acknowledge as like a social media campaign and like an activist campaign, it's like a compelling story to tell. 2156 01:23:41,644 --> 01:23:44,704 But it's meaningless across a number of dimensions. 2157 01:23:45,104 --> 01:23:50,964 One is that while it sounds good, we actually don't know how many people are actually running N.O.T.S. 2158 01:23:50,964 --> 01:23:57,244 because literally one individual could spin up tens of thousands of Bitcoin nodes in AWS. 2159 01:23:57,244 --> 01:23:59,083 and affect that metric. 2160 01:23:59,244 --> 01:24:00,364 I'm not saying that's what's happening. 2161 01:24:00,744 --> 01:24:03,224 It could very well be each individual is doing that. 2162 01:24:03,364 --> 01:24:04,444 But I'm just saying we don't know. 2163 01:24:04,484 --> 01:24:04,884 Yeah, we don't know. 2164 01:24:04,884 --> 01:24:10,844 And then secondly, even if there's like 500,000 individuals 2165 01:24:10,844 --> 01:24:14,724 who run Nodds and there's only like 70,000 people 2166 01:24:14,724 --> 01:24:16,164 continue to run Core or whatever, 2167 01:24:17,104 --> 01:24:19,764 if all they're doing is just spinning up and running 2168 01:24:19,764 --> 01:24:21,924 and not receiving Bitcoin, 2169 01:24:22,844 --> 01:24:25,304 then they're literally meaningless. 2170 01:24:25,304 --> 01:24:29,484 because like I think if someone was from the knots camp here, 2171 01:24:29,544 --> 01:24:31,644 they'd argue, oh, but we're relaying transactions. 2172 01:24:31,804 --> 01:24:33,424 We can set relay policy and stuff. 2173 01:24:33,904 --> 01:24:37,484 But with a sufficient sized Bitcoin core network, 2174 01:24:38,184 --> 01:24:39,484 transactions will be relayed. 2175 01:24:39,484 --> 01:24:44,244 It doesn't matter if there's 50,000, 500,000, 50 million knots nodes. 2176 01:24:44,564 --> 01:24:47,564 I'll still find paths through the network to get to miners 2177 01:24:47,564 --> 01:24:49,864 with a transaction that I want to mine. 2178 01:24:50,264 --> 01:24:51,583 I also just want to throw out because I mean, 2179 01:24:51,623 --> 01:24:52,884 you said people should be self-custaining. 2180 01:24:52,884 --> 01:24:55,424 I just want to say, I'm not sure I always agree with that. 2181 01:24:55,704 --> 01:24:58,024 We did that whole episode about diversifying. 2182 01:24:58,424 --> 01:25:02,004 I think self-custody can be a good option if you know what you're doing. 2183 01:25:02,083 --> 01:25:03,623 I think it can be a horrible option if you don't. 2184 01:25:03,864 --> 01:25:07,004 And even if you do, for security reasons and other, I think it does make sense. 2185 01:25:07,064 --> 01:25:09,804 That's why I think a lot of whales have moved into things like ETFs or custody. 2186 01:25:10,164 --> 01:25:10,684 And I get it. 2187 01:25:10,784 --> 01:25:13,504 It totally makes sense to have someone else take a lot of that burden for you. 2188 01:25:13,904 --> 01:25:18,944 But if you are going to do that, I think we've said this many times, and I just will keep 2189 01:25:18,944 --> 01:25:19,844 beating this horse forever. 2190 01:25:20,364 --> 01:25:21,504 Know who you're working with. 2191 01:25:21,564 --> 01:25:22,144 Know your business. 2192 01:25:22,144 --> 01:25:24,244 know who's running it and what their values are, right? 2193 01:25:24,364 --> 01:25:25,844 Like at the end of the day, you know, 2194 01:25:25,884 --> 01:25:27,704 people like Brian Armstrong and Coinbase 2195 01:25:27,704 --> 01:25:29,424 have shown their colors over and over again. 2196 01:25:29,504 --> 01:25:32,083 I know where they're going to go if there is a fork or, 2197 01:25:32,244 --> 01:25:34,464 you know, I mean, yes, they're probably going to give customers 2198 01:25:34,464 --> 01:25:35,623 the right to do what they want, 2199 01:25:35,664 --> 01:25:38,083 but like don't trust people, right? 2200 01:25:38,083 --> 01:25:40,083 Like I will say this over and over again, 2201 01:25:40,424 --> 01:25:42,844 look at a company like River or an Alex Leishman, 2202 01:25:43,104 --> 01:25:45,004 Block, people like Jack Dorsey and Alex 2203 01:25:45,004 --> 01:25:48,104 who may give you that option to make that choice. 2204 01:25:48,164 --> 01:25:49,204 I'm not saying they will for sure, 2205 01:25:49,484 --> 01:25:51,184 but I'm just saying all custody is not the same. 2206 01:25:51,184 --> 01:25:54,964 all exchanges are not created equal. Do your own research. Where you do your business, 2207 01:25:55,064 --> 01:25:57,544 where you bring your business, what those people's values are matters. 2208 01:25:59,024 --> 01:26:02,464 Did we cover what you wanted to cover in Forks? Yeah, I think that's a good, 2209 01:26:02,583 --> 01:26:05,804 you went a different direction than I was anticipating, but I think it's the right direction 2210 01:26:05,804 --> 01:26:09,864 for a broader audience. So thanks for doing that. 2211 01:26:11,484 --> 01:26:13,704 A few more things I wanted to talk about. 2212 01:26:15,024 --> 01:26:17,324 Matthew's asking. I got to answer this question. 2213 01:26:17,324 --> 01:26:20,184 So Matthew asked a very important question. 2214 01:26:20,344 --> 01:26:23,044 He says, before you end, Max, what is that mask? 2215 01:26:23,204 --> 01:26:24,224 What is it made from? 2216 01:26:24,324 --> 01:26:26,583 And how much DMT was used in the process? 2217 01:26:28,004 --> 01:26:28,984 I'll answer all three. 2218 01:26:30,184 --> 01:26:32,484 So this mask right here, for those of you who can't see it, 2219 01:26:32,524 --> 01:26:33,804 let me bring my friend up here. 2220 01:26:34,804 --> 01:26:38,944 This is one of the Demon Doggy Diners. 2221 01:26:39,464 --> 01:26:41,644 You'll notice I'm wearing the original Demon Doggy Diner 2222 01:26:41,644 --> 01:26:43,504 because there's been many versions of it on my shirt. 2223 01:26:44,064 --> 01:26:44,784 So for those of you who don't know... 2224 01:26:44,784 --> 01:26:45,424 This is an NFT. 2225 01:26:45,424 --> 01:26:47,144 this is definitely not a fucking 2226 01:26:47,144 --> 01:26:48,764 he's about to drop it 2227 01:26:48,764 --> 01:26:51,304 although I don't know I'm not anti-ordinals 2228 01:26:51,304 --> 01:26:52,764 necessarily maybe we should make one maybe 2229 01:26:52,764 --> 01:26:55,484 but so shout out to my dad 2230 01:26:55,484 --> 01:26:57,364 because he makes all of these so my dad 2231 01:26:57,364 --> 01:26:59,484 used to be known back in Memphis where I'm from 2232 01:26:59,484 --> 01:27:01,164 originally as we always say I do it for them 2233 01:27:01,164 --> 01:27:03,544 as the king of Halloween my mom and dad 2234 01:27:03,544 --> 01:27:05,404 were the king and queen of Halloween so my dad is an artist 2235 01:27:05,404 --> 01:27:07,104 that makes these incredible six 2236 01:27:07,104 --> 01:27:09,044 he used to make six foot tall giant monsters 2237 01:27:09,044 --> 01:27:11,504 and maybe one day we'll be able to 2238 01:27:11,504 --> 01:27:12,924 show them off in the Bay Area that'd be cool 2239 01:27:12,924 --> 01:27:15,364 but as of right now he doesn't really have 2240 01:27:15,364 --> 01:27:19,284 the yard to be able to do that. So instead he makes these masks and we probably got a dozen of 2241 01:27:19,284 --> 01:27:24,484 them and we go around him more than me. And when I, when I have time, um, the reasons I'm not 2242 01:27:24,484 --> 01:27:28,664 reading the group chat is my, my other priority is, is spending a lot of time walking around town 2243 01:27:28,664 --> 01:27:33,424 with these masks with my dad and we go around and, um, you know, uh, last one summit at all. 2244 01:27:33,804 --> 01:27:39,464 No, that too. There's a lot going on in life. I'm never going to be doing another summit. I did this 2245 01:27:39,464 --> 01:27:42,544 last year too, with my LP day right around Halloween. Like Halloween is too sacred of a 2246 01:27:42,544 --> 01:27:46,324 holiday to be doing all this other stuff. But whatever, lesson learned. We all learned. 2247 01:27:46,964 --> 01:27:52,804 And so we went to one of our Halloween, there's the kids out on the beach last week, and we went 2248 01:27:52,804 --> 01:27:57,804 and showed them off. Although it was raining and windy, so it was a rough day. But the kids love it. 2249 01:27:57,904 --> 01:28:02,184 I mean, adults too. It's really fun as you walk around town with these. You just see people 2250 01:28:02,184 --> 01:28:07,464 shocked. Most people are kind of absorbed in their phone reality or worried about some bullshit in 2251 01:28:07,464 --> 01:28:10,583 life. And then all of a sudden, you snap them back into reality when they just see you in one 2252 01:28:10,583 --> 01:28:16,044 of these it's great fun i recommend everyone do more things that snap yourself and others back 2253 01:28:16,044 --> 01:28:20,904 into reality um and particularly with the kids a lot of them love it but you know it's not 2254 01:28:20,904 --> 01:28:24,264 halloween unless you get at least one kid that starts screaming crying running to their mom 2255 01:28:24,264 --> 01:28:27,504 we got that last week they were absolutely terrified the mom had to run down the street 2256 01:28:27,504 --> 01:28:31,744 to catch this like three-year-old they were terrified and uh you know that's because of 2257 01:28:31,744 --> 01:28:36,744 halloween um and how much dmt was used well we're not one by one man we're gonna wait through 2258 01:28:36,744 --> 01:28:40,344 second question is what is it made from so this is where my dad shout out to my dad out here 2259 01:28:40,344 --> 01:28:42,484 he's a genius in what he can do because he does a lot 2260 01:28:42,484 --> 01:28:44,623 with a little which by the way I saw someone put that on there 2261 01:28:44,623 --> 01:28:46,304 and it was like a LinkedIn or something and it's like 2262 01:28:46,304 --> 01:28:48,304 what their skills were living well 2263 01:28:48,304 --> 01:28:50,644 on a little and I was like that's a skill we should all 2264 01:28:50,644 --> 01:28:52,564 aim for. This is made 2265 01:28:52,564 --> 01:28:54,484 of paper towels. It's paper mache. It's just like 2266 01:28:54,484 --> 01:28:56,384 this is like hood stuff from around the house. 2267 01:28:56,464 --> 01:28:58,304 Paper towels and paint. Nothing fancy. 2268 01:28:58,804 --> 01:29:00,564 Very cool. Yeah the best art. The best 2269 01:29:00,564 --> 01:29:02,644 ideas to your point. Bitcoin white paper. 2270 01:29:02,744 --> 01:29:04,644 Everything starts from the edge. Like if you get too close 2271 01:29:04,644 --> 01:29:06,464 to the center and too close to the money spigot 2272 01:29:06,464 --> 01:29:08,564 things get nasty but when you're on the edge 2273 01:29:08,564 --> 01:29:09,184 stuff looks good. 2274 01:29:09,604 --> 01:29:10,924 So just paper towels and paint. 2275 01:29:11,444 --> 01:29:12,604 And then the last question, 2276 01:29:12,784 --> 01:29:13,384 how much DMT? 2277 01:29:13,623 --> 01:29:14,444 I'll have to ask my dad. 2278 01:29:15,104 --> 01:29:16,304 I'm guessing... 2279 01:29:16,304 --> 01:29:17,644 Non-zero? 2280 01:29:18,844 --> 01:29:19,623 No comment. 2281 01:29:20,544 --> 01:29:22,523 But it's funny you mention that 2282 01:29:22,523 --> 01:29:24,123 because I was talking to some folks 2283 01:29:24,123 --> 01:29:25,604 about some of their experiences this week. 2284 01:29:25,704 --> 01:29:26,864 So it's, you know, it's possible. 2285 01:29:26,964 --> 01:29:27,264 You never know. 2286 01:29:28,344 --> 01:29:28,664 Beautiful. 2287 01:29:29,023 --> 01:29:29,264 All right. 2288 01:29:29,864 --> 01:29:31,623 Well, I want to rattle off a few things 2289 01:29:31,623 --> 01:29:32,704 before we wrap it. 2290 01:29:32,764 --> 01:29:33,004 Hit me. 2291 01:29:33,184 --> 01:29:33,584 What you got? 2292 01:29:33,724 --> 01:29:35,404 Well, we talked about prediction markets 2293 01:29:35,404 --> 01:29:35,844 a little bit. 2294 01:29:35,944 --> 01:29:36,984 I mean, Polymarket is one 2295 01:29:36,984 --> 01:29:38,444 that most people have probably heard of. 2296 01:29:38,444 --> 01:29:39,724 and maybe used a little bit. 2297 01:29:40,464 --> 01:29:44,344 They just recently announced accepting Bitcoin. 2298 01:29:44,504 --> 01:29:44,704 That's great. 2299 01:29:44,944 --> 01:29:46,604 But what led me to learn about that 2300 01:29:46,604 --> 01:29:48,924 was that there's a Bitcoin-focused one called, 2301 01:29:49,384 --> 01:29:51,004 I think it's pronounced Predicts. 2302 01:29:51,324 --> 01:29:53,184 P-R-E-D-Y-X. 2303 01:29:54,844 --> 01:29:56,404 I think Connor shared it with me, 2304 01:29:56,564 --> 01:29:57,824 and then I decided to just play. 2305 01:29:57,824 --> 01:29:58,804 I've seen it on Stacker News. 2306 01:29:58,864 --> 01:30:00,144 They post on Stacker News all the time. 2307 01:30:00,184 --> 01:30:01,264 Yeah, I decided to play with it. 2308 01:30:01,623 --> 01:30:02,764 You got to be on Stacker News more, Steve. 2309 01:30:03,484 --> 01:30:04,564 I missed it. 2310 01:30:04,644 --> 01:30:04,984 I don't know. 2311 01:30:04,984 --> 01:30:09,304 But anyway, super slick onboarding and user experience. 2312 01:30:09,424 --> 01:30:10,784 I just wanted to describe what that is 2313 01:30:10,784 --> 01:30:13,724 and then maybe compare it a little bit to Polymarket 2314 01:30:13,724 --> 01:30:18,023 and how can Predicts keep an edge. 2315 01:30:19,184 --> 01:30:20,404 So the user experience is great 2316 01:30:20,404 --> 01:30:22,644 because first of all, to register, 2317 01:30:22,964 --> 01:30:25,384 I could just use my Bitcoin private key. 2318 01:30:26,184 --> 01:30:27,684 It used LNURL off. 2319 01:30:27,924 --> 01:30:28,104 That's cool. 2320 01:30:28,284 --> 01:30:30,544 So I just like it presented, just like Stacker News, right? 2321 01:30:30,584 --> 01:30:31,744 It presented a QR code. 2322 01:30:31,844 --> 01:30:33,004 I scanned it with Phoenix Wallet. 2323 01:30:33,004 --> 01:30:34,824 That was me registering. 2324 01:30:34,984 --> 01:30:36,584 Nice. So super slick. 2325 01:30:37,784 --> 01:30:39,244 No email address, no KYC. 2326 01:30:39,424 --> 01:30:42,984 So there's the, you know, remain anonymous part, 2327 01:30:43,123 --> 01:30:44,724 but also just the onboarding UX. 2328 01:30:44,904 --> 01:30:46,044 It's so fast and simple. 2329 01:30:46,364 --> 01:30:48,744 Because at first I didn't see that option. 2330 01:30:49,123 --> 01:30:51,904 So I'm like, I got to fill out this form and who knows what else. 2331 01:30:52,784 --> 01:30:56,564 And it's less me being like, I mean, part of me is like, 2332 01:30:56,644 --> 01:31:00,204 certainly if a password, I don't want to do that, but just the time. 2333 01:31:00,544 --> 01:31:00,744 Yeah. 2334 01:31:00,824 --> 01:31:02,864 And I just like put it away and move on to something else. 2335 01:31:02,864 --> 01:31:04,424 So it was so simple. 2336 01:31:04,984 --> 01:31:12,864 And then I was able to quickly and easily deposit money into the system through lightning, right? 2337 01:31:13,444 --> 01:31:15,084 And it was instant. 2338 01:31:15,744 --> 01:31:22,523 So literally within seconds, I was able to register, get money into the system, and participate in a prediction. 2339 01:31:22,684 --> 01:31:23,664 So I did like the World Series. 2340 01:31:23,664 --> 01:31:26,864 I put a little bit of money on Toronto. 2341 01:31:27,504 --> 01:31:28,284 Is baseball happening? 2342 01:31:29,204 --> 01:31:30,784 I don't even know if I watch baseball. 2343 01:31:31,304 --> 01:31:33,264 Are you geriatric now? 2344 01:31:33,364 --> 01:31:34,623 It's the World Series. 2345 01:31:34,984 --> 01:31:37,604 that's happening now 2346 01:31:37,604 --> 01:31:40,123 I feel like DK for once 2347 01:31:40,123 --> 01:31:43,224 I'll sit in the corner here and talk baseball 2348 01:31:43,224 --> 01:31:43,784 that's bowling right 2349 01:31:43,784 --> 01:31:46,284 now there's some amazing 2350 01:31:46,284 --> 01:31:48,964 stories I mean Otani for the Dodgers 2351 01:31:48,964 --> 01:31:50,804 is like the most incredible player ever 2352 01:31:50,804 --> 01:31:52,784 with pitching and batting 2353 01:31:52,784 --> 01:31:54,123 I'm worried she can cricket 2354 01:31:54,123 --> 01:31:57,023 since we're late I'll skip 2355 01:31:57,023 --> 01:31:59,384 the baseball story but we'll pick up baseball next week 2356 01:31:59,384 --> 01:32:00,204 anyhow 2357 01:32:00,204 --> 01:32:03,164 and then the way 2358 01:32:03,164 --> 01:32:04,284 their UI works 2359 01:32:04,284 --> 01:32:06,264 or their system works, you buy like, 2360 01:32:06,324 --> 01:32:08,224 I figure if they call them, 2361 01:32:08,364 --> 01:32:12,144 I'm almost scared to say the word token 2362 01:32:12,144 --> 01:32:14,004 because it's not a token, the bad word. 2363 01:32:14,084 --> 01:32:14,824 You get cowboy credit. 2364 01:32:14,844 --> 01:32:16,004 Units, you get units. 2365 01:32:16,244 --> 01:32:18,984 Like shares, I think it was maybe called shares. 2366 01:32:19,084 --> 01:32:21,244 But I bought like 100 shares in the prediction 2367 01:32:21,244 --> 01:32:23,064 of the outcome of the World Series, 2368 01:32:23,284 --> 01:32:26,364 which costs something like a fraction of a sat 2369 01:32:26,364 --> 01:32:27,184 for a share. 2370 01:32:27,404 --> 01:32:28,864 So 100 was like three sat. 2371 01:32:29,004 --> 01:32:33,123 So my bet here, in case this is illegal, 2372 01:32:33,123 --> 01:32:34,504 I don't know, but it's three sats, 2373 01:32:34,623 --> 01:32:36,264 so we're not getting like sub-penny bet. 2374 01:32:37,984 --> 01:32:39,684 But just the user experience to do this 2375 01:32:39,684 --> 01:32:42,484 was like super fast, super simple. 2376 01:32:42,744 --> 01:32:42,824 Cool. 2377 01:32:42,864 --> 01:32:43,684 I thought it was awesome. 2378 01:32:44,704 --> 01:32:45,424 We should get them up here. 2379 01:32:45,424 --> 01:32:47,523 With Polymarket, my understanding, 2380 01:32:47,744 --> 01:32:49,544 I mean, I've gone to it just to see 2381 01:32:49,544 --> 01:32:51,464 like current estimates, 2382 01:32:51,564 --> 01:32:52,564 but I've never participated. 2383 01:32:52,804 --> 01:32:54,123 So my understanding with registering 2384 01:32:54,123 --> 01:32:55,704 is you do need to KYC. 2385 01:32:56,404 --> 01:32:58,123 So if that barrier remains, 2386 01:32:58,984 --> 01:33:01,184 then to me, Predicts is like far more compelling 2387 01:33:01,184 --> 01:33:02,904 than Polymarket. 2388 01:33:03,123 --> 01:33:05,164 and we'll just see 2389 01:33:05,164 --> 01:33:06,764 usually with a Bitcoin focused 2390 01:33:06,764 --> 01:33:08,504 product 2391 01:33:08,504 --> 01:33:10,364 you can just do more 2392 01:33:10,364 --> 01:33:12,484 go farther with the focus 2393 01:33:12,484 --> 01:33:14,664 than one that supports a zillion different coins 2394 01:33:14,664 --> 01:33:16,944 so hopefully Predicts does well 2395 01:33:16,944 --> 01:33:19,104 and then I don't 2396 01:33:19,104 --> 01:33:21,144 I don't know any of the regulatory side of things 2397 01:33:21,144 --> 01:33:21,964 so like is it 2398 01:33:21,964 --> 01:33:25,123 can it continue being no KYC 2399 01:33:25,123 --> 01:33:25,904 I have no idea 2400 01:33:25,904 --> 01:33:27,824 I think the regulatory 2401 01:33:27,824 --> 01:33:30,864 I think Kalshi is the big competitor to Polymark 2402 01:33:30,864 --> 01:33:32,824 I think Kalshi is fully regulated 2403 01:33:32,824 --> 01:33:34,884 and that enables them to be plugged in. 2404 01:33:34,964 --> 01:33:36,384 I think they got plugged into Robinhood. 2405 01:33:36,744 --> 01:33:39,004 I'm not a Robinhood or a Kalshi customer, 2406 01:33:39,123 --> 01:33:41,404 but my understanding is if you are a Robinhood customer, 2407 01:33:41,504 --> 01:33:43,784 you can participate in the Kalshi prediction markets 2408 01:33:43,784 --> 01:33:46,784 without additional KYC or signup or anything. 2409 01:33:47,404 --> 01:33:50,023 So I appreciate all the points you're making 2410 01:33:50,023 --> 01:33:53,344 around the simplicity of UX and Bitcoin-centric experience, 2411 01:33:53,484 --> 01:33:55,764 but I think also figuring out how to get liquidity 2412 01:33:55,764 --> 01:33:58,144 and distribution is an important challenge 2413 01:33:58,144 --> 01:34:01,023 that critics should still be thinking about 2414 01:34:01,023 --> 01:34:01,984 and figuring out how to solve. 2415 01:34:01,984 --> 01:34:05,504 and sometimes the regulated prediction markets 2416 01:34:05,504 --> 01:34:06,623 I think have advantages 2417 01:34:06,623 --> 01:34:08,584 because they can be plugged into places 2418 01:34:08,584 --> 01:34:10,544 where people already have value on store. 2419 01:34:10,623 --> 01:34:11,404 Two quick thoughts on that. 2420 01:34:11,523 --> 01:34:12,324 I would love to go deeper. 2421 01:34:12,484 --> 01:34:14,224 I mean, and you put this on my radar. 2422 01:34:14,484 --> 01:34:15,424 I don't know if the predicts guys 2423 01:34:15,424 --> 01:34:16,364 want to start a company 2424 01:34:16,364 --> 01:34:17,984 or kind of want to do it at the edges, 2425 01:34:18,064 --> 01:34:18,644 but it's interesting 2426 01:34:18,644 --> 01:34:22,584 because no KYC doesn't just have the obvious benefits. 2427 01:34:22,664 --> 01:34:23,664 And by the way, this feels a little bit, 2428 01:34:23,664 --> 01:34:24,364 it feels very Bitcoin. 2429 01:34:24,644 --> 01:34:25,864 Like it feels like one of those things 2430 01:34:25,864 --> 01:34:27,004 where like regardless of whether 2431 01:34:27,004 --> 01:34:28,564 they can go the traditional route or not, 2432 01:34:28,924 --> 01:34:30,284 you know, it feels like the kind of thing 2433 01:34:30,284 --> 01:34:31,904 that could get real traction regardless. 2434 01:34:31,984 --> 01:34:33,864 and like that's where Bitcoin has always thrived 2435 01:34:33,864 --> 01:34:34,384 is on the edges. 2436 01:34:34,944 --> 01:34:37,304 But I also, the thing I am most excited about 2437 01:34:37,304 --> 01:34:38,324 and the predicts founders, 2438 01:34:38,464 --> 01:34:39,204 if you're listening to this 2439 01:34:39,204 --> 01:34:40,284 and you are thinking this way, 2440 01:34:40,384 --> 01:34:41,244 definitely let me know 2441 01:34:41,244 --> 01:34:44,844 is when you have no KYC for prediction markets, 2442 01:34:45,004 --> 01:34:46,544 that allows bots to use it. 2443 01:34:46,984 --> 01:34:47,784 And so what I'm interested in 2444 01:34:47,784 --> 01:34:49,424 is you can start literally having bots 2445 01:34:49,424 --> 01:34:51,023 creating their own prediction markets 2446 01:34:51,023 --> 01:34:52,824 and working and betting with other bots. 2447 01:34:53,184 --> 01:34:55,304 That to me is something that could just go like thousand X 2448 01:34:55,304 --> 01:34:56,084 and it's early for that. 2449 01:34:56,084 --> 01:34:58,264 But I'm most interested that 2450 01:34:58,264 --> 01:35:00,684 if you don't have KYC or identity, 2451 01:35:00,684 --> 01:35:02,944 then you can literally have new life forms using it, 2452 01:35:02,984 --> 01:35:03,324 which is cool. 2453 01:35:03,424 --> 01:35:04,244 Yep, super cool. 2454 01:35:04,424 --> 01:35:06,724 What do you think about Brian Armstrong's earnings report? 2455 01:35:06,944 --> 01:35:09,004 Was that good or bad for prediction markets? 2456 01:35:09,204 --> 01:35:11,123 Because in case he didn't... 2457 01:35:11,123 --> 01:35:12,804 Oh, well, there's a prediction market 2458 01:35:12,804 --> 01:35:14,924 about which words he would say during earnings. 2459 01:35:15,384 --> 01:35:16,684 And so at the end of earnings... 2460 01:35:16,684 --> 01:35:17,224 Crypto! 2461 01:35:17,404 --> 01:35:18,144 At the end of... 2462 01:35:18,144 --> 01:35:19,564 Well, you know, Web3 was one. 2463 01:35:19,564 --> 01:35:19,744 This is funny, though. 2464 01:35:19,764 --> 01:35:20,523 Web3 was one. 2465 01:35:20,623 --> 01:35:22,004 But at the end of the earnings report, 2466 01:35:22,544 --> 01:35:25,304 he pulled up Polymarket and just read off every word. 2467 01:35:25,924 --> 01:35:26,204 Did he really? 2468 01:35:26,504 --> 01:35:28,364 Yeah, so it was like it made everyone a winner 2469 01:35:28,364 --> 01:35:31,564 that bet that he would say it. 2470 01:35:32,344 --> 01:35:32,523 Now... 2471 01:35:32,523 --> 01:35:33,123 Did he say Bitcoin? 2472 01:35:33,644 --> 01:35:34,064 Just curious. 2473 01:35:34,384 --> 01:35:34,824 Yeah. 2474 01:35:35,164 --> 01:35:36,544 I mean, I think that was one of the words, right? 2475 01:35:37,964 --> 01:35:40,764 But so, you know, I think that's kind of funny. 2476 01:35:41,144 --> 01:35:42,864 It's an interesting moment to do it. 2477 01:35:42,864 --> 01:35:44,504 But at the same time, 2478 01:35:46,184 --> 01:35:47,784 like insider knowledge here 2479 01:35:47,784 --> 01:35:49,844 could have completely... 2480 01:35:49,844 --> 01:35:51,684 I mean, I don't know how much money was actually... 2481 01:35:51,684 --> 01:35:54,224 But imagine a lot of money in volume here. 2482 01:35:54,744 --> 01:35:56,784 Like insider knowledge to him doing that 2483 01:35:56,784 --> 01:35:58,064 would like completely... 2484 01:35:58,364 --> 01:35:59,623 rig these markets. 2485 01:35:59,744 --> 01:36:01,344 I mean, that's what Coinbase is doing from day zero. 2486 01:36:01,664 --> 01:36:02,304 So anyway. 2487 01:36:02,484 --> 01:36:02,804 Not spread. 2488 01:36:03,804 --> 01:36:08,084 For me, it almost makes me question these markets more. 2489 01:36:08,984 --> 01:36:13,704 I think it's good to illustrate just how these things work. 2490 01:36:13,824 --> 01:36:15,764 I think it's illustrative of the broader point 2491 01:36:15,764 --> 01:36:17,023 of how prediction markets work 2492 01:36:17,023 --> 01:36:18,144 and how they can be influenced 2493 01:36:18,144 --> 01:36:19,604 and how you can bring information 2494 01:36:19,604 --> 01:36:22,384 or the market itself could cause a different outcome. 2495 01:36:22,604 --> 01:36:24,084 All of that is stuff that people should be aware of 2496 01:36:24,084 --> 01:36:25,324 instead of thinking of a prediction market 2497 01:36:25,324 --> 01:36:28,064 as this remote, isolated thing 2498 01:36:28,064 --> 01:36:29,384 that just like observes the world. 2499 01:36:29,424 --> 01:36:30,284 I think it was educational. 2500 01:36:30,504 --> 01:36:31,623 It plays with the world, right? 2501 01:36:31,844 --> 01:36:33,204 And people should understand that though. 2502 01:36:33,304 --> 01:36:34,244 There's different, like, 2503 01:36:34,324 --> 01:36:37,004 no one's going to do an earnings report 2504 01:36:37,004 --> 01:36:38,924 that affects the Toronto Blue Jays 2505 01:36:38,924 --> 01:36:40,104 winning the World Series. 2506 01:36:41,784 --> 01:36:43,724 But so you need to know 2507 01:36:43,724 --> 01:36:44,904 what you're putting money on. 2508 01:36:45,704 --> 01:36:47,424 Some can be rigged and some can't. 2509 01:36:47,484 --> 01:36:49,064 Like I think the, my understanding, 2510 01:36:49,523 --> 01:36:51,304 and I'm not an expert at prediction markets, 2511 01:36:51,304 --> 01:36:52,344 but as I'm about to say, 2512 01:36:52,404 --> 01:36:53,284 we just literally talked about 2513 01:36:53,284 --> 01:36:54,564 Chauncey Billups going to jail for this. 2514 01:36:54,944 --> 01:36:57,144 But I think one of the functions 2515 01:36:57,144 --> 01:36:58,523 of the platforms themselves, 2516 01:36:58,844 --> 01:37:00,724 like the PolyMarkets, the Kalshys, 2517 01:37:00,884 --> 01:37:04,544 is that they decide what markets get made. 2518 01:37:04,864 --> 01:37:05,623 Does that sound right to you? 2519 01:37:05,684 --> 01:37:07,724 I think that's, like, you can't just come 2520 01:37:07,724 --> 01:37:09,324 and make up your own and just launch it. 2521 01:37:09,544 --> 01:37:09,684 Really? 2522 01:37:10,023 --> 01:37:10,684 I think you have to... 2523 01:37:10,684 --> 01:37:12,164 I think you can on Predicts, at least. 2524 01:37:12,704 --> 01:37:14,164 Well, that's what I was going to point out, 2525 01:37:14,224 --> 01:37:17,184 is I think because Predicts is a very different thing, 2526 01:37:17,344 --> 01:37:19,364 I think instead of going after the same markets 2527 01:37:19,364 --> 01:37:20,964 that PolyMarket and Kalshys go after, 2528 01:37:21,804 --> 01:37:23,764 which are more like they're curating 2529 01:37:23,764 --> 01:37:24,884 which markets get made, 2530 01:37:25,364 --> 01:37:26,944 this is almost more like a tool 2531 01:37:26,944 --> 01:37:29,084 that you could use with your friends 2532 01:37:29,084 --> 01:37:31,204 to do like a sports betting thing 2533 01:37:31,204 --> 01:37:32,504 or you could take it, 2534 01:37:32,623 --> 01:37:34,384 maybe most of the markets end up being 2535 01:37:34,384 --> 01:37:35,924 kind of more private in nature 2536 01:37:35,924 --> 01:37:36,824 and they're not discoverable, 2537 01:37:37,204 --> 01:37:38,023 but it's more like a tool 2538 01:37:38,023 --> 01:37:39,804 that lets you construct these kinds of markets 2539 01:37:39,804 --> 01:37:40,204 for yourself, 2540 01:37:40,344 --> 01:37:42,144 which to me seems like 2541 01:37:42,144 --> 01:37:44,424 a very differentiated value prop. 2542 01:37:44,724 --> 01:37:46,544 I agree with Steve's point 2543 01:37:46,544 --> 01:37:47,644 that it's like a nice UX, 2544 01:37:48,084 --> 01:37:49,404 but ultimately a nice UX 2545 01:37:49,404 --> 01:37:51,204 can't beat volume and distribution, 2546 01:37:51,444 --> 01:37:53,604 but if it has a different feature in the world 2547 01:37:53,604 --> 01:37:56,023 that it can actually be used 2548 01:37:56,023 --> 01:37:57,724 in a very different way, in a private way. 2549 01:37:58,184 --> 01:37:59,444 And it's not meant to be a discovery hub, 2550 01:37:59,484 --> 01:38:00,104 but meant to be a tool. 2551 01:38:00,264 --> 01:38:01,364 That seems promising. 2552 01:38:01,544 --> 01:38:02,044 I love that. 2553 01:38:02,084 --> 01:38:03,824 And I love anything that enables the long tail. 2554 01:38:03,984 --> 01:38:05,724 So you guys are making me more bullish on Predix. 2555 01:38:05,784 --> 01:38:07,384 I definitely need to go do a little bit more research. 2556 01:38:07,484 --> 01:38:09,564 Well, I learned the founder is in Southern California too. 2557 01:38:10,004 --> 01:38:10,944 So thanks for talking to him. 2558 01:38:11,184 --> 01:38:12,523 Oh, great. 2559 01:38:12,844 --> 01:38:13,604 Yeah, you should come chill. 2560 01:38:13,724 --> 01:38:14,964 I'm interested in learning more if you listen. 2561 01:38:14,964 --> 01:38:16,964 Maybe he's listening to the show. 2562 01:38:17,123 --> 01:38:19,424 And another invitation to come visit us up here. 2563 01:38:19,484 --> 01:38:20,304 We'd love to chat with you. 2564 01:38:21,104 --> 01:38:22,884 But I just want to say really two quick things on that. 2565 01:38:22,984 --> 01:38:24,364 Number one, what you're saying though, 2566 01:38:24,384 --> 01:38:25,664 it's no different than traditional markets. 2567 01:38:25,664 --> 01:38:27,284 traditional markets are also popular, right? 2568 01:38:27,384 --> 01:38:29,664 Like, I don't know, like, if you look at, like, 2569 01:38:29,784 --> 01:38:32,023 insider trading as a thing, like, people know, 2570 01:38:32,123 --> 01:38:33,444 oh, like, whenever you see someone... 2571 01:38:33,444 --> 01:38:34,584 It's very different for two reasons. 2572 01:38:34,784 --> 01:38:38,544 One, I mean, there's the SEC and it's a regulated market. 2573 01:38:38,724 --> 01:38:39,764 I'm not saying... 2574 01:38:39,764 --> 01:38:40,464 Well, it is. 2575 01:38:40,523 --> 01:38:42,684 I mean, I'm not saying it's perfect, 2576 01:38:42,904 --> 01:38:45,064 but people do get put in prison. 2577 01:38:45,264 --> 01:38:46,204 There are investigations. 2578 01:38:47,184 --> 01:38:47,623 From time to time. 2579 01:38:47,804 --> 01:38:48,744 From time to time, exactly. 2580 01:38:48,744 --> 01:38:50,884 But it is a difference. 2581 01:38:51,224 --> 01:38:51,744 Like, there's... 2582 01:38:52,564 --> 01:38:53,584 It exists. 2583 01:38:53,584 --> 01:38:56,564 there's investigations, there's enforcement. 2584 01:38:57,004 --> 01:38:58,123 I didn't say it's perfect. 2585 01:38:58,284 --> 01:39:00,623 I didn't say it gets everything. 2586 01:39:01,864 --> 01:39:03,004 It's indisputable. 2587 01:39:03,844 --> 01:39:04,623 And then secondly, 2588 01:39:05,224 --> 01:39:07,023 is that the prediction markets 2589 01:39:07,023 --> 01:39:08,764 is way more wide open 2590 01:39:08,764 --> 01:39:10,384 than the stock market. 2591 01:39:10,384 --> 01:39:10,944 I mean, the stock market, 2592 01:39:11,204 --> 01:39:13,864 there's only a finite amount 2593 01:39:13,864 --> 01:39:16,884 that have gone through this SEC process 2594 01:39:16,884 --> 01:39:17,644 to be registered. 2595 01:39:17,964 --> 01:39:20,744 And it's just easier to watch that. 2596 01:39:20,884 --> 01:39:21,884 I mean, you guys are saying 2597 01:39:21,884 --> 01:39:23,244 that's hard to watch, right? 2598 01:39:23,244 --> 01:39:27,484 I agree, but it's impossible to regulate. 2599 01:39:27,744 --> 01:39:29,464 So where I think it's going to be very- 2600 01:39:29,464 --> 01:39:31,964 An open prediction market where anything can be predicted. 2601 01:39:32,044 --> 01:39:32,724 Anything can be predicted. 2602 01:39:32,824 --> 01:39:34,104 I think there's going to be good and bad from that. 2603 01:39:34,184 --> 01:39:35,844 And I think what's cool is I've always wondered 2604 01:39:35,844 --> 01:39:37,324 why our prediction market's taking off. 2605 01:39:37,424 --> 01:39:38,964 And maybe now is finally the moment. 2606 01:39:38,984 --> 01:39:39,344 They are. 2607 01:39:39,604 --> 01:39:40,204 We predict- 2608 01:39:40,204 --> 01:39:41,104 Well, they are now, right? 2609 01:39:41,123 --> 01:39:42,623 But I mean, I've been wondering this for like 15 years. 2610 01:39:42,623 --> 01:39:46,284 And I don't know what the kick was. 2611 01:39:46,464 --> 01:39:49,064 Maybe it was just more liquidity on these markets 2612 01:39:49,064 --> 01:39:50,364 or easier user experiences, whatever. 2613 01:39:50,724 --> 01:39:52,104 Maybe the sports betting going mainstream. 2614 01:39:52,104 --> 01:39:57,244 But I think what's really cool is we're going to have in real time the ability to solve some of these problems. 2615 01:39:57,344 --> 01:40:02,924 I think one of the great challenges for Bitcoiners is no one wants things like insider trading. 2616 01:40:03,023 --> 01:40:07,684 We just think that centralized institutions are often just too corrupt, too opaque to be able to do that well. 2617 01:40:07,924 --> 01:40:09,404 It'd be awesome if institutions were honest. 2618 01:40:09,564 --> 01:40:10,484 That would be really cool. 2619 01:40:10,844 --> 01:40:15,504 But I think what's going to be really interesting is how do you try and get some of that in a bottoms-up way? 2620 01:40:15,504 --> 01:40:19,944 So there's going to be a huge experimentation around oracles, reputation with oracles, markets 2621 01:40:19,944 --> 01:40:22,584 on which oracles are honest, things like that. 2622 01:40:23,144 --> 01:40:24,844 And I just think that's going to be super fun to watch. 2623 01:40:24,944 --> 01:40:26,904 And I just want to say this one more time because I think it's very important, whether 2624 01:40:26,904 --> 01:40:32,304 it's the Predicts guys or someone else, finding authenticity and truth in a world with AI 2625 01:40:32,304 --> 01:40:34,304 is going to be so, so, so important. 2626 01:40:34,484 --> 01:40:40,304 So figuring out how to run markets to find truth or closer to truth in a world where 2627 01:40:40,304 --> 01:40:42,364 there's a lot of fake stuff or spam on the internet is interesting. 2628 01:40:42,364 --> 01:40:44,304 and then really making this 2629 01:40:44,304 --> 01:40:45,704 like an agent first experience, 2630 01:40:46,084 --> 01:40:47,104 that's what I would be watching 2631 01:40:47,104 --> 01:40:48,184 for a company that could just 2632 01:40:48,184 --> 01:40:49,564 blow it out of the water. 2633 01:40:50,284 --> 01:40:52,384 So there's three more topics 2634 01:40:52,384 --> 01:40:53,424 I was hoping to talk about. 2635 01:40:53,564 --> 01:40:53,924 I got to pee. 2636 01:40:53,924 --> 01:40:54,104 You guys, 2637 01:40:54,204 --> 01:40:55,504 we can't, 2638 01:40:55,604 --> 01:40:56,964 but like this group 2639 01:40:56,964 --> 01:40:58,184 can't do rapid fire. 2640 01:40:58,404 --> 01:40:59,464 No, we're not going to talk about it. 2641 01:40:59,504 --> 01:41:00,523 I'm going to mention them though. 2642 01:41:00,644 --> 01:41:01,664 Maybe we tee it up for next week. 2643 01:41:01,804 --> 01:41:03,744 One is Substrate was announced, 2644 01:41:04,184 --> 01:41:06,164 which is a competitor to ASML. 2645 01:41:06,764 --> 01:41:09,204 ASML is a critical company 2646 01:41:09,204 --> 01:41:10,623 in process for semiconductor 2647 01:41:10,623 --> 01:41:12,264 and they're a monopoly. 2648 01:41:12,364 --> 01:41:13,804 No one else competes to them. 2649 01:41:14,464 --> 01:41:16,204 I understand it's a huge barrier to entry, 2650 01:41:16,364 --> 01:41:19,244 but I've always found it puzzling that no one tries. 2651 01:41:19,664 --> 01:41:22,584 So I can't speak anything to Substrate, 2652 01:41:22,664 --> 01:41:25,304 their technology, the odds of success or whatever. 2653 01:41:25,424 --> 01:41:25,804 It's a good name. 2654 01:41:25,844 --> 01:41:26,504 The team mined it, 2655 01:41:26,644 --> 01:41:29,644 but let's hope they create competition there. 2656 01:41:29,744 --> 01:41:29,844 Yeah. 2657 01:41:29,984 --> 01:41:30,424 That's one thing. 2658 01:41:30,984 --> 01:41:34,144 Two, the CoreWeave deal to buy Core Scientific fell apart. 2659 01:41:35,004 --> 01:41:38,284 So, you know, we can get into a huge mining topic, 2660 01:41:38,404 --> 01:41:41,344 but just FYI, we've talked about that before in the show. 2661 01:41:41,344 --> 01:41:43,584 and we talked about AI and mining. 2662 01:41:44,084 --> 01:41:46,464 Interesting that, you know, 2663 01:41:46,704 --> 01:41:48,444 I think they're being acquired for $9 billion. 2664 01:41:49,844 --> 01:41:51,264 The highest... 2665 01:41:51,264 --> 01:41:52,444 Couch change is what I'm bringing. 2666 01:41:53,104 --> 01:41:57,184 The peak market cap for Core Scientific 2667 01:41:57,184 --> 01:41:59,064 is its current price, 2668 01:41:59,284 --> 01:42:00,244 which I didn't look today, 2669 01:42:00,344 --> 01:42:01,784 but yesterday when I saw this news, 2670 01:42:01,884 --> 01:42:03,123 it was like $6.8 billion. 2671 01:42:03,784 --> 01:42:05,804 So the premium over their all-time high 2672 01:42:05,804 --> 01:42:08,144 is like almost 50%. 2673 01:42:08,144 --> 01:42:10,104 Shareholders rejected that. 2674 01:42:10,104 --> 01:42:15,104 So it really speaks to what shareholders are very bullish on the future of Core Scientific. 2675 01:42:16,164 --> 01:42:18,824 And then the last thing is SimpleX. 2676 01:42:19,044 --> 01:42:21,144 Did you guys ever try SimpleX? 2677 01:42:21,244 --> 01:42:21,623 You mean did? 2678 01:42:21,904 --> 01:42:22,544 Messaging apps. 2679 01:42:22,784 --> 01:42:23,104 Simplex? 2680 01:42:23,924 --> 01:42:24,284 Oh, sorry. 2681 01:42:24,484 --> 01:42:24,764 Simplex. 2682 01:42:25,164 --> 01:42:25,264 Oh. 2683 01:42:25,664 --> 01:42:26,364 Or be Simplex. 2684 01:42:26,644 --> 01:42:27,864 The worst name of all time. 2685 01:42:27,864 --> 01:42:28,644 I don't even know how to pronounce it. 2686 01:42:29,104 --> 01:42:30,064 Well, now we can. 2687 01:42:30,184 --> 01:42:31,824 Maybe I used to call it Simplex. 2688 01:42:31,904 --> 01:42:32,984 Now I'll call it Simplex. 2689 01:42:33,284 --> 01:42:34,464 I'm kind of trolling on it. 2690 01:42:34,523 --> 01:42:34,644 Yeah. 2691 01:42:34,964 --> 01:42:36,384 Because, so you guys use it. 2692 01:42:36,504 --> 01:42:38,523 But I mean, for the people who are not familiar with this. 2693 01:42:38,523 --> 01:42:38,664 Yeah. 2694 01:42:38,664 --> 01:42:38,884 Wow. 2695 01:42:38,884 --> 01:42:43,123 Well, I mean, it came, I think it was introduced two years ago or something. 2696 01:42:43,444 --> 01:42:52,004 But it was a new messaging app that was more decentralized and more private maybe than Signal. 2697 01:42:52,564 --> 01:42:56,064 It had a horrible user experience out of the box, but maybe it was promising. 2698 01:42:56,264 --> 01:43:01,244 But yesterday they announced NFTs and a token and a whole new blockchain. 2699 01:43:02,244 --> 01:43:08,424 Actually, I don't know if they're building their own blockchain or they're building it on Ethereum, but either way, it was an interesting move. 2700 01:43:08,424 --> 01:43:08,984 It was sad. 2701 01:43:09,224 --> 01:43:09,884 Unexpected move. 2702 01:43:10,123 --> 01:43:10,444 Unexpected. 2703 01:43:10,544 --> 01:43:13,424 Because also I think Jack led their seed round or something, which is like, I mean, I guess 2704 01:43:13,424 --> 01:43:16,204 I know he never really tells people what to do, but like, it's just disappointing. 2705 01:43:16,344 --> 01:43:16,964 Like why does everyone- 2706 01:43:16,964 --> 01:43:18,123 I didn't even know they'd raised money. 2707 01:43:18,224 --> 01:43:18,424 Yeah. 2708 01:43:18,664 --> 01:43:19,544 Jack was the lead investor. 2709 01:43:19,884 --> 01:43:22,944 In fact, they raised a little bit of money, I think, from Village Global early on, which 2710 01:43:22,944 --> 01:43:24,004 I thought was a good bet from them. 2711 01:43:24,064 --> 01:43:25,523 And then they raised more from Jack. 2712 01:43:25,804 --> 01:43:26,664 And so I was hopeful. 2713 01:43:26,824 --> 01:43:28,144 I was like, okay, this one I should be watching. 2714 01:43:28,244 --> 01:43:28,784 This is great. 2715 01:43:29,104 --> 01:43:29,964 I never would have dreamed him. 2716 01:43:30,123 --> 01:43:32,544 It's like, man, like why do all the good things just have to ship one? 2717 01:43:32,623 --> 01:43:34,344 So there's still a huge opportunity. 2718 01:43:34,484 --> 01:43:36,523 Maybe it'll be white noise or something coming out of Nostre. 2719 01:43:38,424 --> 01:43:40,364 If the Simplex guys are listening, it's not too late. 2720 01:43:40,804 --> 01:43:42,623 You can come back and do a real business model. 2721 01:43:42,924 --> 01:43:44,044 I didn't look at all the details. 2722 01:43:44,244 --> 01:43:46,584 They did respond to a lot of the, 2723 01:43:46,704 --> 01:43:48,484 I mean, I'm sure they anticipated 2724 01:43:48,484 --> 01:43:50,784 a lot of negative criticism on social media, 2725 01:43:50,904 --> 01:43:51,764 which they did get. 2726 01:43:52,623 --> 01:43:56,044 And they did respond to a lot. 2727 01:43:56,464 --> 01:43:58,064 I didn't go verify any of this, 2728 01:43:58,123 --> 01:43:59,424 but I think they were responding like, 2729 01:43:59,424 --> 01:44:01,324 there's no pre-mine. 2730 01:44:02,484 --> 01:44:04,204 Bitcoin doesn't solve their needs 2731 01:44:04,204 --> 01:44:06,344 because they need smarter, smart contracts. 2732 01:44:06,344 --> 01:44:09,564 so there might be 2733 01:44:09,564 --> 01:44:10,344 there might be 2734 01:44:10,344 --> 01:44:13,404 more to read here before immediately 2735 01:44:13,404 --> 01:44:15,164 dismissing them I remember 2736 01:44:15,164 --> 01:44:15,924 BISQ 2737 01:44:15,924 --> 01:44:19,004 they introduced a token 2738 01:44:19,004 --> 01:44:21,364 yeah but wasn't that that was more like a share of like 2739 01:44:21,364 --> 01:44:21,924 Bitcoin rep 2740 01:44:21,924 --> 01:44:25,404 it was to it was like sort of 2741 01:44:26,023 --> 01:44:26,304 the 2742 01:44:26,304 --> 01:44:29,504 the lubricant to make their peer-to-peer 2743 01:44:29,504 --> 01:44:31,444 trading work but they went 2744 01:44:31,444 --> 01:44:32,204 to great 2745 01:44:32,204 --> 01:44:38,184 I'm not sure I follow 2746 01:44:38,184 --> 01:44:38,464 but 2747 01:44:38,464 --> 01:44:40,424 well because they 2748 01:44:40,424 --> 01:44:40,964 want to be a 2749 01:44:40,964 --> 01:44:41,924 decentralized exchange 2750 01:44:41,924 --> 01:44:42,604 so how do you 2751 01:44:42,604 --> 01:44:43,504 like 2752 01:44:43,504 --> 01:44:44,944 how do you do 2753 01:44:44,944 --> 01:44:46,304 a decentralized exchange 2754 01:44:46,304 --> 01:44:47,404 I think you do it on Noster 2755 01:44:47,404 --> 01:44:47,824 but 2756 01:44:47,824 --> 01:44:48,824 well okay 2757 01:44:48,824 --> 01:44:50,123 no one's built that though 2758 01:44:50,123 --> 01:44:51,104 Noster didn't exist 2759 01:44:51,104 --> 01:44:51,644 when they did it 2760 01:44:51,644 --> 01:44:52,523 no one's built that 2761 01:44:52,523 --> 01:44:53,264 so 2762 01:44:53,264 --> 01:44:55,504 they wanted to stay 2763 01:44:55,504 --> 01:44:56,384 Bitcoin only 2764 01:44:56,384 --> 01:44:57,324 so that you couldn't 2765 01:44:57,324 --> 01:44:58,484 build Uniswap 2766 01:44:58,484 --> 01:44:59,164 so how are they 2767 01:44:59,164 --> 01:44:59,684 supposed to do it 2768 01:44:59,684 --> 01:45:00,623 so they came up 2769 01:45:00,623 --> 01:45:01,184 with a token 2770 01:45:01,184 --> 01:45:01,724 I'm just saying 2771 01:45:01,724 --> 01:45:03,523 that was an example of where 2772 01:45:03,523 --> 01:45:05,884 I think the people behind BISC are 2773 01:45:05,884 --> 01:45:07,484 tried and true Bitcoiners 2774 01:45:07,484 --> 01:45:09,184 but they introduced a token 2775 01:45:09,184 --> 01:45:11,804 and so maybe that's the case here with 2776 01:45:11,804 --> 01:45:13,164 SimpleX, I don't know 2777 01:45:13,164 --> 01:45:15,724 there might be more 2778 01:45:15,724 --> 01:45:17,244 to it. We should look into it 2779 01:45:17,244 --> 01:45:19,604 but there is an opportunity and maybe 2780 01:45:19,604 --> 01:45:21,623 something like the white noise protocol or whatever coming out 2781 01:45:21,623 --> 01:45:23,023 in Oster, like maybe there's something there 2782 01:45:23,023 --> 01:45:25,584 And speaking of, did you guys share? I thought I saw 2783 01:45:25,584 --> 01:45:27,504 something with the hurricanes in 2784 01:45:27,504 --> 01:45:30,004 Haiti and Jamaica that BitChad is kind of 2785 01:45:30,004 --> 01:45:31,304 blowing up to take over 2786 01:45:31,304 --> 01:45:37,904 first of all before we get too giddy like i having lived through left with a cat five storm in new 2787 01:45:37,904 --> 01:45:43,704 orleans back in you know petrina 2005 like um that's all the people in jamaica know that's just 2788 01:45:43,704 --> 01:45:49,123 gotta be freaking horrible and terrifying and like just getting welted by a storm but the interesting 2789 01:45:49,123 --> 01:45:54,084 part for bitcoiners is that i think i saw cali sharing that uh the chat is now number two delin 2790 01:45:54,084 --> 01:45:59,504 it out maybe it's number one by now so interesting case study which was like even though it's you 2791 01:45:59,504 --> 01:46:07,184 know, Bluetooth mesh origin, it's, I think, kind of adjacent to what Simplex was trying 2792 01:46:07,184 --> 01:46:12,084 to do. It's white noise based. It's, you know, kind of Nostra based. So it touches on thematically 2793 01:46:12,084 --> 01:46:15,604 things related to Simplex, but almost certainly is never going to introduce. 2794 01:46:16,123 --> 01:46:20,404 We should talk more about that one next week. I would love to learn and see how it functioned 2795 01:46:20,404 --> 01:46:24,184 for the people there. One question I didn't understand is even if they're all their internet 2796 01:46:24,184 --> 01:46:29,184 is down. So it's like Bluetooth peer to peer. I guess they don't need us coordinating among 2797 01:46:29,184 --> 01:46:31,004 themselves maybe. It might not be 2798 01:46:31,004 --> 01:46:33,084 to access the internet. I think I saw Dread 2799 01:46:33,084 --> 01:46:35,144 was doing a fundraiser. I didn't go look into it 2800 01:46:35,144 --> 01:46:37,064 deeply. I should check out more on Nostra. 2801 01:46:37,164 --> 01:46:38,984 It'd be cool to hear from Dread or other people 2802 01:46:38,984 --> 01:46:40,764 how that 2803 01:46:40,764 --> 01:46:43,244 did it work? What worked? What didn't? 2804 01:46:43,324 --> 01:46:44,484 Maybe we can cover that next week. 2805 01:46:45,764 --> 01:46:47,284 Awesome. Thanks for going through those 2806 01:46:47,284 --> 01:46:48,644 with me. Just two more hours and 2807 01:46:48,644 --> 01:46:50,804 happy Halloween. 2808 01:46:51,044 --> 01:46:52,464 Happy White Paper Day. 2809 01:46:52,464 --> 01:46:53,644 Happy White Paper Day. 2810 01:46:54,044 --> 01:46:54,844 Bye-bye.