1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:17,700 Okay, so without further ado, I'd like to invite Steve, Max, and DK to come to the front of the room to do a little live PBJ session on the topic of, and this is going to help kind of give us kind of thrust into the rest of the day, on the topic of why is Silicon Valley currently missing Bitcoin? 2 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,220 And then we can talk about and spend some time, you know, actually inserting Bitcoin into the conversation. 3 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:23,060 So take it away, guys. 4 00:00:24,580 --> 00:00:24,900 Yo, yo. 5 00:00:24,900 --> 00:00:26,260 Hey, so same seats, huh? 6 00:00:26,260 --> 00:00:42,100 So this topic of Silicon Valley and Bitcoin, I think, you know, there's a question that we're often discussing kind of offline and I think is a popular topic among Bitcoiners, which is why doesn't Silicon Valley understand Bitcoin? 7 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,020 What are they missing? How do we convince them? 8 00:00:44,020 --> 00:01:01,800 And I kind of sort of challenge the question to just kind of open it up. Is Silicon Valley missing Bitcoin or should a new type of thing that's not so Silicon Valley be the place where the Bitcoin building emerges? Just sort of open that up as a question. 9 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,780 i like that question should we set some context maybe with a little bit of history 10 00:01:06,780 --> 00:01:12,760 um like in 20 yeah sure and then i think we can answer your question better but like um 11 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:21,180 the first wave of silicon valley hype and bitcoin i think was in the 2013 era because like pre-2013 12 00:01:21,180 --> 00:01:28,480 it was a very small set of ogs who discovered bitcoin and bought some or transacted with it 13 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:29,820 ran a node, mined. 14 00:01:30,140 --> 00:01:32,100 And there were a lot of them in that era. 15 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,400 It wasn't like this covert thing. 16 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,220 It was basically every venture firm knew about it 17 00:01:37,220 --> 00:01:38,540 and was buying Bitcoin. 18 00:01:38,780 --> 00:01:42,120 But like in the 2010 to 12 era, 19 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,540 I think it was more like a global phenomenon 20 00:01:45,540 --> 00:01:48,200 within a niche group of people. 21 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:49,900 Drug dealers and rural- 22 00:01:49,900 --> 00:01:50,700 There was definitely like, 23 00:01:51,140 --> 00:01:52,640 Wences got a lot of people, 24 00:01:52,980 --> 00:01:54,920 one of the funders of this space, 25 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:55,700 Wences Casares, 26 00:01:56,020 --> 00:01:57,500 got a lot of people in Silicon Valley 27 00:01:57,500 --> 00:02:00,520 taught them about Bitcoin. 28 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,380 I was at Google at the time, as was Matt. 29 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,380 I think you maybe left, but yeah, you had already left, David. 30 00:02:10,380 --> 00:02:13,320 And it was definitely going through Google as well. 31 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:20,000 But the 2013 era, that's when VCs, I think their conception, 32 00:02:20,260 --> 00:02:22,860 entrepreneurs and VCs were trying to make payments happen. 33 00:02:22,860 --> 00:02:28,400 But I think they viewed it as more like, oh, this is going to replace PayPal or Visa. 34 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:41,340 But I get the sense that Silicon Valley at the time thought it was like a payment layer replacement and not this revolutionary new money that's like replacing the dollar. 35 00:02:42,300 --> 00:02:47,320 Which if you view Bitcoin in that lens, you realize it doesn't happen overnight. 36 00:02:48,020 --> 00:02:51,060 It's not like you just build a Silicon Valley startup and that happens. 37 00:02:51,060 --> 00:02:53,880 You have to shake up institutions. 38 00:02:54,600 --> 00:03:03,760 And since it's not fiat, not declared by a government, it has to be grassroots and come from people. 39 00:03:04,140 --> 00:03:06,260 And that takes a long time. 40 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:16,020 So there were a bunch of whiffs in 2013 wave of venture capital funded Bitcoin startups because it wasn't ready yet for that use case. 41 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:17,340 And I think there was a misconception. 42 00:03:17,340 --> 00:03:34,120 And then ever since then, there's always a better Bitcoin and those get funded. And I would call it a lot of distractions. But I think that, I mean, do you guys agree with that history and that context? 43 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:55,100 Yeah, I do. And I mean, I think I said this kind of jokingly, but in that early era, the people that really grokked Bitcoin were the weirdos. And again, there's a really interesting paper I've quoted many times. If you haven't read it, who here has read why the yuppie elite dismissed Bitcoin? This is basically the best anthropological piece ever written about Bitcoin. If you haven't read it, just read it. 44 00:03:55,100 --> 00:03:58,140 But the gist of it is very, very, very simple. 45 00:03:58,260 --> 00:04:00,940 And to really grok Bitcoin, there's a lot going on. 46 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,160 Some of it is complex. 47 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,540 And so you need to be, quote unquote, smart or do the work, right? 48 00:04:06,540 --> 00:04:07,380 So he has two axes. 49 00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:09,340 And one axe he uses is like, how smart are you? 50 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,080 How much work have you done if you want to put it in there? 51 00:04:11,860 --> 00:04:16,200 The other axis, though, is how much do you trust the system? 52 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,460 And that's a very, very different axis, right? 53 00:04:20,460 --> 00:04:27,520 so the people that historically and i've seen this in my own circles like i went to a much more 54 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,600 sort of like insider school my friends there still don't get it they're smart they're super 55 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:40,140 smart they still do not get it to this day at yale jail you you you you were much more likely 56 00:04:40,140 --> 00:04:47,000 to grog bitcoin in jail somebody so embarrassed to say they went to yale seriously actually 57 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,560 quick funny aside, I have a theory. 58 00:04:50,020 --> 00:04:51,500 Highest expected value 59 00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:53,600 job of the last 25 years outside 60 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,440 of super hot startups at Google. 61 00:04:56,300 --> 00:04:57,760 Highest expected value job. 62 00:05:02,260 --> 00:05:03,020 Vibe Coder. 63 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:04,880 I'm going to go with 64 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,580 volunteer on the Ron 65 00:05:07,580 --> 00:05:08,240 Paul campaign. 66 00:05:11,420 --> 00:05:13,560 Not even kidding. Because you bought the 67 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,360 Coder earlier. Yeah, all those fuckers bought 68 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,540 because they were young, they got it. 69 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:20,880 But how many people took Bitcoin seriously? 70 00:05:21,900 --> 00:05:24,080 Sorry, how many people even understood 71 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,020 what the Federal Reserve is or what money is? 72 00:05:26,140 --> 00:05:28,180 The people that were out there, I guess it was 2008, 73 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:29,980 like Ron Paul Reichen, these people, 74 00:05:30,380 --> 00:05:32,560 by most of society's standards, were nuts 75 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,220 and are still nuts. 76 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:35,700 It's like you had everyone else. 77 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:37,440 Think about your daily, you're talking about this stuff 78 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,760 and everyone's like, well, should we fund this thing 79 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,400 or should we fund that thing, the economy? 80 00:05:41,860 --> 00:05:43,020 And then you've got this one old guy 81 00:05:43,020 --> 00:05:46,000 who's literally just shaking his umbrella into the air, 82 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:47,880 being like, we need to go back to the gold standard. 83 00:05:49,100 --> 00:05:50,660 And you're like, oh man, these people are not. 84 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:51,880 And then you've got Warren Buffett. 85 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:54,360 Everyone loves Daddy Warren. 86 00:05:54,500 --> 00:05:56,020 They got Warren Buffett, baby. 87 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:56,800 It's Shilohmunger. 88 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,440 And they're always sitting there, gold. 89 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,860 Gold doesn't throw off any cash, flows, returns. 90 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,000 Anyways, and we did a whole show about that last week. 91 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:06,920 I won't rehash it. 92 00:06:06,940 --> 00:06:07,760 You should watch it on PBJ. 93 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,400 But anyways, the gist of it is, 94 00:06:09,740 --> 00:06:11,460 unless you, for some reason, 95 00:06:11,580 --> 00:06:12,940 have been outside of the system, 96 00:06:13,020 --> 00:06:15,680 Maybe you grew up, you know, in a country where there's hyperinflation. 97 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,360 Why was he the one guy in Silicon Valley that got it? 98 00:06:18,460 --> 00:06:21,620 Because he's seen his, you know, savings hyperinflate many times. 99 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,340 Maybe, you know, you're whatever, just grew up outside the system, very poor. 100 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,040 Like, anyways, but if you grew up on the inside, the insides work pretty well for you. 101 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,680 If you're from the banking class, done well in Silicon Valley, it's like, you don't even 102 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,280 think to question, like, is the water that we're in working or is it not? 103 00:06:37,460 --> 00:06:40,300 So that's why I think Silicon Valley, you know, didn't get it at first. 104 00:06:40,380 --> 00:06:41,460 And to be clear, some did, right? 105 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:42,640 Like some people bought a lot of Bitcoin. 106 00:06:43,020 --> 00:06:48,720 I understand about a lot. Peter Thiel, he has the capability to zoom out and see the guys that short 107 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,780 the system, like hedge fund dudes, they understood what was happening. But anyways, and then I think 108 00:06:52,780 --> 00:06:57,900 to your point, Steve, you're absolutely right. Then Silicon Valley tried to pin on it what they 109 00:06:57,900 --> 00:07:01,660 knew, which is payments. And it's like, it will happen. I fundamentally believe that. We all 110 00:07:01,660 --> 00:07:05,580 fundamentally believe that. We get to zoom out. And to your point, protocols over companies, 111 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:10,960 this is a cathedral. This is a century, multi-century long project, at least multi-decade 112 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,180 long project. And if you don't come in with that view, you know, and you don't come in with a view 113 00:07:15,180 --> 00:07:19,840 of the history of the internet, how long that took, then you're going to miss. So I think Silicon 114 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:25,720 Valley just wasn't prepared. And then those that were have done very well. And then they keep trying 115 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,840 to fit the payments narrative on top. And then you see people that make so much money. Like you see 116 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:34,160 the multi-coin fund returning like socket numbers. You're like, wow, I want some of that without 117 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,620 questioning. Well, you know, is this really what I want to dedicate to my life to dumping on grandma? 118 00:07:38,620 --> 00:07:40,740 Just like options on Intel. 119 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:41,660 Yeah. 120 00:07:41,820 --> 00:07:42,120 Anyways. 121 00:07:42,660 --> 00:07:44,200 So that's my more cynical view. 122 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:44,980 I think it's changing. 123 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:50,780 And the last thing I'll say on that, though, is like, I do think Silicon Valley has a very important role to play in all of this. 124 00:07:51,180 --> 00:07:58,260 And I think that it's events like this to show people, OK, we're finally at a point where the things you want payments already and how you can fund those companies. 125 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,140 So let's get back to the original question, David. 126 00:08:01,140 --> 00:08:03,980 Let me make sure I remember it. 127 00:08:03,980 --> 00:08:05,420 is 128 00:08:05,420 --> 00:08:07,340 is 129 00:08:07,340 --> 00:08:09,100 Silicon Valley missing 130 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:11,420 Bitcoin or will 131 00:08:11,420 --> 00:08:13,160 Bitcoin just grow and thrive 132 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,560 it doesn't have to grow and thrive 133 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,480 through Silicon Valley but elsewhere in the world 134 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:18,540 yeah or maybe 135 00:08:18,540 --> 00:08:21,460 I'll add a little more color with the 136 00:08:21,460 --> 00:08:23,500 context is I might 137 00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:25,620 make the claim that Silicon Valley has not 138 00:08:25,620 --> 00:08:27,400 missed Bitcoin but Silicon Valley 139 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,440 has a very different set of incentives 140 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,200 that are not necessarily 141 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,320 compatible with Bitcoin we just think oh 142 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:39,040 technology it must be silicon valley and i think there's some things that silicon valley has gotten 143 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:45,740 right about bitcoin like probably a dozen venture firms loaded up on bitcoin the asset with their 144 00:08:45,740 --> 00:08:52,380 discretionary liquid 20 of the fund but they didn't invest in a lot of companies and i think 145 00:08:52,380 --> 00:08:57,940 outside of the ones that they did invest like coinbase there there are a lot of 146 00:08:57,940 --> 00:09:02,700 certain successes to show monetarily in the venture capital style of investing. 147 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,840 So I think historically, that's kind of inarguable. 148 00:09:08,380 --> 00:09:11,080 I mean, how you frame it there is correct historically. 149 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,180 So I think the interesting discussion and question is moving forward, 150 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:15,500 will something change? 151 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,640 And I think things will change. 152 00:09:18,860 --> 00:09:20,900 So I think you're correct that historically, 153 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:22,920 buying Bitcoin and holding it, 154 00:09:22,980 --> 00:09:25,280 that's been the use case and where you can thrive. 155 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:32,300 There's not been a lot of great startups to fund the past 10 years, especially ones that are focused on Bitcoin. 156 00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:37,880 If you're like minting your own tokens and you get those to VCs, that's been incredible returns. 157 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,460 I don't think it's super ethical, but certainly a good VC return. 158 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,660 But moving forward, what's transpired? 159 00:09:44,780 --> 00:09:49,620 Well, one, Bitcoin as an asset has obviously been tremendously successful the past 10 plus years. 160 00:09:49,860 --> 00:09:51,440 There's no doubting that. 161 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,320 and everything appears 162 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,400 it's going to just continue on that trend. 163 00:09:57,340 --> 00:09:58,940 Secondly, the 164 00:09:58,940 --> 00:10:01,340 tools to build on Bitcoin 165 00:10:01,340 --> 00:10:03,200 are dramatically better today 166 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:04,400 than they have been in the past. 167 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:06,640 And we all 168 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,060 like we've seen that firsthand. 169 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:10,720 Like historically, it's taken 170 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,140 several talented developers 171 00:10:13,140 --> 00:10:14,880 over a year to build 172 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,280 a quality Bitcoin application. 173 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,280 Now, people 174 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,300 in this room are vibe coding with 175 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:22,680 one-shot vibe coding 176 00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:23,920 and like nine minutes later, 177 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,440 they have a working Bitcoin application 178 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,560 or a working application 179 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:29,100 that integrates Bitcoin payments. 180 00:10:29,860 --> 00:10:31,500 Matt is not the only one who's done that. 181 00:10:31,740 --> 00:10:33,360 He showed a lot of people how to do it, 182 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:34,140 but he's not the only one. 183 00:10:34,220 --> 00:10:35,080 He gave me the one-shot 184 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:36,420 and then I one-shotted and then it worked. 185 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:38,560 And if you want to one-shot something, 186 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:39,240 talk to Matt. 187 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,940 So I think that's transformative. 188 00:10:43,420 --> 00:10:45,340 So the next three years 189 00:10:45,340 --> 00:10:46,140 are going to be very different 190 00:10:46,140 --> 00:10:46,980 than the last 10 years 191 00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:48,720 and that everyone in this room 192 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:50,560 and millions and millions of people 193 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:51,280 around the world 194 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,480 have the ability to create an application, 195 00:10:57,140 --> 00:10:58,820 integrate Bitcoin payments into it, 196 00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:02,280 and you don't have to be a superstar engineer to do that. 197 00:11:02,660 --> 00:11:04,000 So I think we're going to see 198 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,100 hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people building 199 00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:10,340 millions of applications. 200 00:11:10,340 --> 00:11:14,080 A lot of them are going to be toys or junk or learning experiments. 201 00:11:14,220 --> 00:11:14,860 That's totally fine. 202 00:11:14,900 --> 00:11:16,300 When you have that big of numbers, 203 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,720 you only need a small percentage to actually be hits. 204 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:26,020 and even if i've coding today has its its limits that's totally fine you can get to you can get to 205 00:11:26,020 --> 00:11:31,480 an amazing proof of concept you can even get into production and allow hundreds of thousands hundreds 206 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:36,420 or thousands of people to use it so you can even get the product market fit today single person 207 00:11:36,420 --> 00:11:42,100 with with a five-coder product and then if if there is a fit great then you can hire good 208 00:11:42,100 --> 00:11:46,760 engineers to make sure it scales and is secure and and things like that um so i think that's 209 00:11:46,760 --> 00:12:17,638 transformative and the ability to add Bitcoin payments we going to see a lot more of that And something David always harped on over time is like Bitcoiners tend to build Bitcoin centric applications and then like no one using it But I think when you open it up to everyone a lot of people including Silicon Valley and big tech who wouldn identify as Bitcoiners they build applications that are compelling for other people And those applications just happen to have Bitcoin integrated into it 210 00:12:17,638 --> 00:12:20,258 No one would call it a Bitcoin-centric application. 211 00:12:20,698 --> 00:12:27,098 And once we have that, we're going to have growth, popularity, and then VCs are going to be chopping into debt to invest. 212 00:12:27,458 --> 00:12:33,298 The only maybe thing I would push back a little bit, I agree on all of that, is on both you guys. 213 00:12:33,358 --> 00:12:38,318 I think you're right so far with this idea that there haven't been good companies to invest in Bitcoin. 214 00:12:39,278 --> 00:12:41,058 Obviously, I'm talking my own book here. 215 00:12:41,258 --> 00:12:42,698 Except for the ones you've invested in. 216 00:12:42,698 --> 00:12:43,258 Yeah, exactly. 217 00:12:44,818 --> 00:12:45,898 But I will... 218 00:12:45,898 --> 00:12:46,458 He won't say he's a VC. 219 00:12:46,458 --> 00:12:54,498 but i will say that the way i think about it is like we've had years now five years 220 00:12:54,498 --> 00:12:59,618 startups but he's like block that have built a lot of the open source community a lot of people 221 00:12:59,618 --> 00:13:03,818 in this room that have built a tremendous amount of extremely important infrastructure a lot of 222 00:13:03,818 --> 00:13:09,618 that's open source um and you've had companies like lightning labs like light spark uh that have 223 00:13:09,618 --> 00:13:13,918 built this really really critical breeze albie you name it all these companies that built all 224 00:13:13,918 --> 00:13:17,218 this infrastructure that the vibe coding stuff wouldn't work with if you didn't have a lot of 225 00:13:17,218 --> 00:13:20,598 various Lexis in the room or they were in the room yesterday. So all of these companies, 226 00:13:20,738 --> 00:13:24,398 like they've been doing like the super heavy lifting in the shadows. It's kind of like, 227 00:13:24,418 --> 00:13:27,998 I remember the old sort of like a book before everyone hated him, the John Morant commercials 228 00:13:27,998 --> 00:13:31,458 where it was always him in the shadow doing the work before you see him going out there 229 00:13:31,458 --> 00:13:35,478 and posterize people. That's the way I see what's happened the last several years. Bitcoin, 230 00:13:35,738 --> 00:13:41,078 that infrastructure had to exist before the application. And I think now we're about to 231 00:13:41,078 --> 00:13:44,318 enter with Vibe Coding, all the new tools, the application layer. 232 00:13:44,658 --> 00:13:45,738 Yeah, there's going to be tons of those. 233 00:13:45,818 --> 00:13:46,918 That's when Silicon Valley's going to get in. 234 00:13:47,138 --> 00:13:50,478 But I still think that all of those companies have been building in the dark, 235 00:13:50,838 --> 00:13:53,338 also stacking Bitcoin, so it'll be around forever, 236 00:13:53,998 --> 00:13:57,438 that you're going to see some incredible success stories 237 00:13:57,438 --> 00:13:58,718 from the infrastructure companies. 238 00:13:59,038 --> 00:14:00,558 It just hasn't happened yet. 239 00:14:01,698 --> 00:14:08,038 Yeah, and I was going to say, I think that we have a lot of focus 240 00:14:08,038 --> 00:14:10,918 in our discussions offline and sort of in the Bitcoin community 241 00:14:10,918 --> 00:14:16,478 wondering when is Microsoft going to adopt Bitcoin or when is Google going to adopt Bitcoin? 242 00:14:17,098 --> 00:14:22,498 And I kind of think like that'd be fine if they do, but I don't think that's really worth a lot 243 00:14:22,498 --> 00:14:28,758 of our focus. And one of the questions I was asking Matt earlier was, what do you think is 244 00:14:28,758 --> 00:14:34,878 the non-Mag7 that's going to be a credible number two to Block? So don't tell me Microsoft or Google, 245 00:14:35,038 --> 00:14:40,738 but tell me like, I think Block has done a great job at moving, it's a technology company fund in 246 00:14:40,918 --> 00:14:43,118 originally in VC, in Silicon Valley. 247 00:14:43,858 --> 00:14:47,398 But what is a credible number two to carry? 248 00:14:47,598 --> 00:14:48,578 That could be. 249 00:14:49,738 --> 00:14:49,878 Yeah. 250 00:14:50,018 --> 00:14:50,458 That's my answer. 251 00:14:50,458 --> 00:14:50,878 That's your answer. 252 00:14:51,138 --> 00:14:52,398 Okay, and Amjad's a huge Bitcoiner. 253 00:14:52,838 --> 00:14:53,718 I'm not sure I understand. 254 00:14:53,878 --> 00:14:55,478 What's the number two Silicon Valley company 255 00:14:55,478 --> 00:14:56,178 that's going to embrace Bitcoin? 256 00:14:56,178 --> 00:14:58,498 So Block has done a great job 257 00:14:58,498 --> 00:15:00,458 at being both a Silicon Valley company 258 00:15:00,458 --> 00:15:03,218 and being a Bitcoin company, right? 259 00:15:03,638 --> 00:15:06,318 With the funding spiral and all the grantees 260 00:15:06,318 --> 00:15:08,638 and everything, and, you know, Cash App. 261 00:15:08,638 --> 00:15:13,678 just block cares about Bitcoin in a way that Silicon Valley mostly doesn't. 262 00:15:14,498 --> 00:15:18,598 And so what is going to be the second company and how do you reach out to them, 263 00:15:18,778 --> 00:15:21,538 meet them, support them in doing that, 264 00:15:21,538 --> 00:15:24,438 as well as all the thousands of startups and the vibe voters and everything. 265 00:15:24,858 --> 00:15:27,298 But instead of saying, go higher, 266 00:15:28,298 --> 00:15:32,298 pick the number two and three and four and 10 that are sort of in the mini block. 267 00:15:32,658 --> 00:15:33,658 I'm going to go, that's a good answer. 268 00:15:34,058 --> 00:15:36,038 I agree with that, but I'm also going to go with Elon. 269 00:15:36,038 --> 00:15:39,318 Tesla X 270 00:15:39,318 --> 00:15:40,558 Elon will undersees 271 00:15:40,558 --> 00:15:41,738 he's going to get over his 272 00:15:41,738 --> 00:15:43,318 Dogecoin fascination 273 00:15:43,318 --> 00:15:43,718 he will 274 00:15:43,718 --> 00:15:45,218 when is that happening? 275 00:15:46,138 --> 00:15:46,818 well I mean 276 00:15:46,818 --> 00:15:47,358 I tried 277 00:15:47,358 --> 00:15:48,178 I 278 00:15:48,178 --> 00:15:50,078 we're 279 00:15:50,078 --> 00:15:51,498 hopefully we'll have a second shot 280 00:15:51,498 --> 00:15:52,278 here in a couple weeks 281 00:15:52,278 --> 00:15:53,398 if you guys haven't heard 282 00:15:53,398 --> 00:15:54,318 TuneIn Type 1 Summit 283 00:15:54,318 --> 00:15:54,778 coming up 284 00:15:54,778 --> 00:15:58,278 the way I think about it is 285 00:15:58,278 --> 00:15:58,998 it's a process 286 00:15:58,998 --> 00:15:59,958 you don't get there overnight 287 00:15:59,958 --> 00:16:00,298 right 288 00:16:00,298 --> 00:16:00,858 and so 289 00:16:00,858 --> 00:16:02,118 you know 290 00:16:02,118 --> 00:16:04,558 before you got 291 00:16:04,558 --> 00:16:05,618 and this is probably true for you two 292 00:16:05,618 --> 00:16:05,998 and I'm 293 00:16:06,038 --> 00:16:10,698 curious, most people in the audience, before you were like a zealot and fully in the Bitcoin cult, 294 00:16:11,098 --> 00:16:15,018 probably bought some Bitcoin, probably bought some shit coins. Over time, you probably realize, 295 00:16:15,158 --> 00:16:19,178 hey, what's this thing that keeps going up forever that everyone says is tulips, 296 00:16:19,178 --> 00:16:24,538 and then it's always going up forever? Maybe I should investigate. Oh, all my shit coins, 297 00:16:24,678 --> 00:16:31,458 that was all went to zero. Elon bought Bitcoin for Tesla, SpaceX, and personally, 298 00:16:31,458 --> 00:16:32,938 from my understanding in 2020. 299 00:16:34,398 --> 00:16:35,378 Seeing what happened. 300 00:16:36,038 --> 00:16:36,658 Smart guy. 301 00:16:36,998 --> 00:16:37,978 He understands thermodynamics, 302 00:16:38,138 --> 00:16:39,638 understands Bitcoin has energy back to money. 303 00:16:40,218 --> 00:16:43,378 If I had to bet on who's going to really bring it mainstream, 304 00:16:43,998 --> 00:16:45,198 I'm going to guess it's probably going to be an X. 305 00:16:46,618 --> 00:16:47,258 I like that. 306 00:16:47,678 --> 00:16:51,038 By the way, when we do this show every Friday, 307 00:16:51,238 --> 00:16:55,658 it's a live show and we always solicit engagement 308 00:16:55,658 --> 00:16:58,778 and that's with us sitting in the studio behind us 309 00:16:58,778 --> 00:17:01,438 and people text chatting with us. 310 00:17:01,458 --> 00:17:03,518 We love that. But now we have a live audience in front of us. 311 00:17:03,518 --> 00:17:10,858 So please, at any point, if you guys have a question or an opinion, feel free to raise your hand and speak up. 312 00:17:12,078 --> 00:17:12,558 Yes. 313 00:17:19,338 --> 00:17:20,338 Nice move, man. 314 00:17:21,278 --> 00:17:23,958 So, yeah, okay. 315 00:17:25,358 --> 00:17:27,258 So with Block, right? 316 00:17:27,398 --> 00:17:31,238 I mean, I've appreciated what Dorsey's been trying to do. 317 00:17:31,458 --> 00:17:37,778 keeping an eye on Bitcoin and all the innovation that he's been trying to put in place around it. 318 00:17:38,558 --> 00:17:41,358 Really appreciate that sort of ideology. 319 00:17:42,238 --> 00:17:49,638 But what I've seen generally, and this is like when I say the market is seeing it, is the stock price, right? 320 00:17:49,758 --> 00:17:54,258 And it's not reflecting in what's happening there. 321 00:17:54,258 --> 00:18:04,458 So part of what excites people when it comes to like innovation on Bitcoin, whether it's DeFi, TradFi, whatever, like I'm personally, I'm agnostic. 322 00:18:04,638 --> 00:18:06,258 I don't care like what these labels are. 323 00:18:06,418 --> 00:18:10,498 Like if there is innovation on Bitcoin and I'm interested, at least I keep an eye on it. 324 00:18:11,538 --> 00:18:13,518 And, you know, it hasn't transpired. 325 00:18:13,638 --> 00:18:14,498 It hasn't paid off. 326 00:18:14,758 --> 00:18:24,118 So I'm just curious or thoughts on, you know, we can take Block as an example or any sort of broader thoughts on what could have been done better. 327 00:18:24,258 --> 00:18:26,958 in that space, right, to attract sort of additional capital. 328 00:18:27,078 --> 00:18:30,298 Because everybody wants, as much as, you know, 329 00:18:30,358 --> 00:18:33,178 a lot of people here believe that, you know, 330 00:18:33,218 --> 00:18:36,058 even though Bitcoin's at $100,000, $115,000, 331 00:18:36,658 --> 00:18:38,218 we're still early, right? 332 00:18:38,438 --> 00:18:40,318 But there's others who are saying, 333 00:18:40,458 --> 00:18:42,098 well, it used to be like a thousand bucks 334 00:18:42,098 --> 00:18:43,998 or a few hundred bucks only 10 years ago. 335 00:18:44,078 --> 00:18:46,258 Now it's 100,000 too late, right? 336 00:18:46,298 --> 00:18:47,498 And they're looking for the next. 337 00:18:48,338 --> 00:18:49,718 And that's kind of where like shitcoins 338 00:18:49,718 --> 00:18:51,198 kind of find their market. 339 00:18:51,378 --> 00:18:53,098 I'm just trying to kind of like get some thoughts 340 00:18:53,098 --> 00:18:54,918 from you guys on, you know, 341 00:18:55,278 --> 00:18:56,318 what could Block do better? 342 00:18:56,438 --> 00:18:58,438 What could some of these other companies do better 343 00:18:58,438 --> 00:19:00,838 where they're like adding value to Bitcoin 344 00:19:00,838 --> 00:19:02,878 but not become shitcoins in the process? 345 00:19:03,038 --> 00:19:05,618 Yeah, I think that's a really good question. 346 00:19:06,038 --> 00:19:09,178 And it also, yeah, I mean, 347 00:19:09,538 --> 00:19:11,378 it shows a very different strategy 348 00:19:11,378 --> 00:19:13,398 for Block and other companies. 349 00:19:13,938 --> 00:19:15,958 I think it boils down to like short-term 350 00:19:15,958 --> 00:19:18,778 versus long-term view and strategy. 351 00:19:18,778 --> 00:19:21,238 with, I think 352 00:19:21,238 --> 00:19:23,178 the people that work out of Presidia 353 00:19:23,178 --> 00:19:24,418 Bitcoin on Bitcoin 354 00:19:24,418 --> 00:19:27,158 as well as Block have a longer term view 355 00:19:27,158 --> 00:19:29,178 and think 356 00:19:29,178 --> 00:19:31,478 that Bitcoin is a bedrock, a foundation 357 00:19:31,478 --> 00:19:33,278 that everything's going to be built 358 00:19:33,278 --> 00:19:34,558 on, but it takes time 359 00:19:34,558 --> 00:19:36,998 and that that might not 360 00:19:36,998 --> 00:19:38,958 show up in short term 361 00:19:38,958 --> 00:19:40,698 financial results 362 00:19:40,698 --> 00:19:43,538 and there remains a lot of skepticism 363 00:19:43,538 --> 00:19:45,338 within Silicon Valley about that 364 00:19:45,338 --> 00:19:47,158 future on Bitcoin, I think 365 00:19:47,158 --> 00:19:51,198 So, and apparently investors as well. 366 00:19:51,378 --> 00:19:59,878 Although, I mean, I would say for Block specifically, while Block does a lot of good for Bitcoin, it's still primarily Square and Cash App with two businesses and it's UF dollars. 367 00:20:00,618 --> 00:20:06,078 I mean, the lion's share, I think Bitcoin is something like three to four percent of the gross profit of the company. 368 00:20:06,718 --> 00:20:12,618 So from a Wall Street analyst perspective, it's almost a rounding error still. 369 00:20:12,618 --> 00:20:15,458 so an investor in block 370 00:20:15,458 --> 00:20:18,998 if someone's investing in block for bitcoin 371 00:20:18,998 --> 00:20:21,398 you have to be someone who would 372 00:20:21,398 --> 00:20:22,598 work out a procedure of bitcoin 373 00:20:22,598 --> 00:20:24,518 who really believes in bitcoin 374 00:20:24,518 --> 00:20:26,898 but I think it's a short term versus a long term 375 00:20:26,898 --> 00:20:29,758 and my kind of disdain 376 00:20:29,758 --> 00:20:32,378 for pre-mine tokens 377 00:20:32,378 --> 00:20:33,438 and shit coins 378 00:20:33,438 --> 00:20:36,198 is that it's indisputable 379 00:20:36,198 --> 00:20:37,538 that it's been highly profitable 380 00:20:37,538 --> 00:20:39,398 for VCs and founders 381 00:20:39,398 --> 00:20:40,738 who create those coins 382 00:20:40,738 --> 00:20:43,118 but none of them have any lasting value. 383 00:20:43,598 --> 00:20:45,798 Every single one of them has lost value to Bitcoin 384 00:20:45,798 --> 00:20:47,098 and retail gets dumped on. 385 00:20:47,238 --> 00:20:48,278 I find it unethical. 386 00:20:49,658 --> 00:20:52,978 So that's, but I understand the rationale 387 00:20:52,978 --> 00:20:56,798 for why VCs haven't or have done that 388 00:20:56,798 --> 00:20:58,558 and not invested in Bitcoin yet. 389 00:20:58,558 --> 00:21:01,358 Yeah, I think people are generally pretty rational 390 00:21:01,358 --> 00:21:03,858 about things and it really comes down 391 00:21:03,858 --> 00:21:04,778 to what is your timeframe. 392 00:21:05,338 --> 00:21:07,598 So if your timeframe is like 393 00:21:07,598 --> 00:21:08,618 you're a public markets trader, 394 00:21:08,618 --> 00:21:13,138 maybe your time frame is, you know, hours or days or weeks. 395 00:21:13,818 --> 00:21:14,298 Could be. 396 00:21:14,698 --> 00:21:17,878 If you're a venture capitalist, your time frame is about 7 to 10 years. 397 00:21:18,158 --> 00:21:19,918 And you have to get that window right. 398 00:21:20,418 --> 00:21:23,378 And if your time frame, if you think it's going to play out over 20 years, 399 00:21:23,918 --> 00:21:25,018 it's just a no-ply zone. 400 00:21:25,138 --> 00:21:26,038 Don't touch it, right? 401 00:21:26,658 --> 00:21:29,898 And it doesn't mean that Bitcoin's going to take another 20 years from now. 402 00:21:29,898 --> 00:21:34,578 But maybe if you'd started in 2013 and you're 12 years in, 403 00:21:34,678 --> 00:21:36,698 you're feeling a little burnt, right? 404 00:21:36,698 --> 00:21:49,978 You're like, we know people who stuck their neck out at their firm and they made a bunch of investments and they're going okay, but then their partners are doing these unethical things and they're getting all the returns. 405 00:21:50,118 --> 00:21:51,758 Why are we taking all this dead weight along? 406 00:21:51,978 --> 00:21:54,598 So the incentives and the timeframes really matter. 407 00:21:55,218 --> 00:22:04,518 But I also think the timeframes are specific to what the market is doing and you can't fight gravity. 408 00:22:04,518 --> 00:22:20,638 I think the one thing that I just keep getting beat over the head with in technology is like, no matter how much you want something, the world has to kind of conspire to provide the opportunities for the things to exist. 409 00:22:20,738 --> 00:22:22,738 You can't just brute force it. 410 00:22:23,458 --> 00:22:24,658 The world has to assemble it. 411 00:22:24,718 --> 00:22:29,798 Now, you can do a bunch of brute forcing behind the scenes and then the world figures it out and then it's takeoff. 412 00:22:30,078 --> 00:22:32,398 That's kind of how most great things end up working. 413 00:22:32,398 --> 00:22:37,238 but you also have to recognize that like you're signing up for that brute forcing thing now i 414 00:22:37,238 --> 00:22:43,458 think we have lived through like what has happened in technology like you know 10 years ago 15 years 415 00:22:43,458 --> 00:22:47,998 ago like that was sort of tail end of the mobile wave there's a lot of like vertical sass and 416 00:22:47,998 --> 00:22:52,538 sass companies and like that was a lot of what bc was excited about like sass companies okay well 417 00:22:52,538 --> 00:22:55,658 they don't really have a need for bitcoin and that's where all the growth is they grow revenue 418 00:22:55,658 --> 00:23:01,058 and they grow share price and so the incentives over the last call it 10 years have been mostly 419 00:23:01,058 --> 00:23:07,878 directed at increasing share price through, you know, vertical SaaS revenue growth. And that's, 420 00:23:08,158 --> 00:23:12,958 like, Bitcoin doesn't really have a role in that. I think the exciting thing about this moment 421 00:23:12,958 --> 00:23:19,958 is that we have the new ingredients of AI, and it's going to fundamentally rewire everything. 422 00:23:20,418 --> 00:23:25,118 Like, there's nobody who's really, like, sate from AI unless they're already investing in AI. 423 00:23:25,458 --> 00:23:30,518 So that goes all the way from, like, the smallest startup to Mag7. If you're a small startup with a 424 00:23:30,518 --> 00:23:32,858 bunch of good revenue today, but you're not AI, you almost can't get funded. 425 00:23:33,338 --> 00:23:35,078 It's like, sounds bizarre, but that's actually true. 426 00:23:35,198 --> 00:23:37,978 You can't be like, oh, we have 5 million ARR, but we don't have any AI story. 427 00:23:38,018 --> 00:23:38,978 They're like, okay, next. 428 00:23:39,318 --> 00:23:40,278 They don't want to talk to you. 429 00:23:40,818 --> 00:23:57,656 So I think it important to focus on what the new ingredients are and how they can enable growth in the future And I think the new ingredients of AI mean that we can build things on our own our own hobbies with no venture capital 430 00:23:57,656 --> 00:24:04,116 and prove that something is exciting and valuable and needed and useful. And we can do it with 431 00:24:04,116 --> 00:24:11,236 Bitcoin if we want. And some people will figure out where Bitcoin is effective and we'll build AI, 432 00:24:11,236 --> 00:24:18,196 will build AIs with AI tools. And those AIs will need Bitcoin, not just like want Bitcoin or 433 00:24:18,196 --> 00:24:21,636 ideologically believe Bitcoin will be better in 20 years, but they'll actually need Bitcoin to 434 00:24:21,636 --> 00:24:27,536 receive payments. There's no other way to pay an AI except for the AI to hold Bitcoin, right? So 435 00:24:27,536 --> 00:24:33,236 because of KYC, all that. And I think that's a pretty profound shift. So in a sense, maybe we've 436 00:24:33,236 --> 00:24:37,716 been fighting gravity. We've been saying Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin, it should be there. Why do people 437 00:24:37,716 --> 00:24:44,116 listen. But really what we need is we need the world to kind of inspire in a way that now it's 438 00:24:44,116 --> 00:24:48,536 just obvious because it's the only credible solution for the thing that we're trying to do. 439 00:24:49,116 --> 00:24:53,596 Yeah. I would add a couple of things to that. I mean, you know, I a hundred percent agree with 440 00:24:53,596 --> 00:24:58,336 your point. Don't fight gravity, right? Like at the end of the day, one of my heroes, Buckminster 441 00:24:58,336 --> 00:25:04,116 Fuller, one of his great quotes is don't fight forces, use them, right? And so I would say there 442 00:25:04,116 --> 00:25:08,576 are many dimensions to this question. And it's also a good reminder that capital, it's not, 443 00:25:08,916 --> 00:25:13,056 you know, there's no homo economicus, you know, like there are different pools of capital, 444 00:25:13,516 --> 00:25:18,316 different mandates, different people controlling them, different visions for what that can do for 445 00:25:18,316 --> 00:25:23,056 the world, frankly, different goals for that capital, right? And I think in general, people 446 00:25:23,056 --> 00:25:28,796 with capital want to make more capital for sure. But at the same time, you know, I also agree with 447 00:25:28,796 --> 00:25:33,016 Steve's point, like there are people with different ethical standards, right? Like this whole like 448 00:25:33,016 --> 00:25:38,356 shitcoin thing to me is extremely nihilistic and also probably should be illegal, but that's 449 00:25:38,356 --> 00:25:43,316 a separate question. I'm not going to get into that, but you can probably guess my views. 450 00:25:43,936 --> 00:25:48,876 And so, and I do think that, you know, yeah, there's different pools of capital or maybe it's 451 00:25:48,876 --> 00:25:52,896 like, hey man, already a billionaire, want to squeeze a few more out by like doing some payday 452 00:25:52,896 --> 00:25:58,076 lending. Like, I mean, that's your game, you know, so be it. It's not my game. There's a lot of 453 00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:03,776 capital debts are not their game either. But at the same time, it'd be easy to sit here and be like, 454 00:26:03,836 --> 00:26:07,256 why doesn't the world understand what we're working on? They're so dumb. And they're not 455 00:26:07,256 --> 00:26:12,756 dumb. I agree with DK's point. People are very rational. And I would say it comes down to 456 00:26:12,756 --> 00:26:19,396 strategy and timeline, right? So on the timeline question, you're asking me who am I bullish on 457 00:26:19,396 --> 00:26:26,096 in 20 years, Stripe or Block? All this is not financial advice. Block. Why? Stripe, they're 458 00:26:26,096 --> 00:26:30,556 hotter in Silicon Valley. They've got all the sexy hires and this and that. They're going to 459 00:26:30,556 --> 00:26:35,116 make a lot of money on their tempo thing, which by the way, when Facebook did that, 460 00:26:35,116 --> 00:26:41,356 we blocked those sexy hires. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what I mean? Block's great. 461 00:26:43,096 --> 00:26:47,996 So do I think short term, let's say it comes down to traders versus investors in timeline. 462 00:26:48,596 --> 00:26:51,876 If I'm going to put money in the short run, do I think Stripe's going to go in there and just 463 00:26:51,876 --> 00:26:57,056 absolutely raid the cupboard, make a whole lot of money, just like the shitcoiners did the next 464 00:26:57,056 --> 00:27:03,176 five years, totally. I think it's a great investment. But there's trade-offs. And that's 465 00:27:03,176 --> 00:27:06,696 the thing that everyone has to understand. By doing that, they're focusing on, they're going 466 00:27:06,696 --> 00:27:12,156 to raid the cupboard, make a lot of money in the short run. But when the Bitcoin payment network, 467 00:27:12,216 --> 00:27:15,676 and my thesis has always been Bitcoin is internet of value. It scales vertically, 468 00:27:15,876 --> 00:27:21,056 TCP, IP, HTTP. We're building HTTP or SNTP on top of Lightning and all the edge use cases. 469 00:27:21,056 --> 00:27:26,676 when that time comes, and they've been raiding, playing fiat games and winning fiat prizes, 470 00:27:27,176 --> 00:27:31,196 in five to 10 years when everyone realizes Bitcoin is the internet, it's not the information 471 00:27:31,196 --> 00:27:35,096 superhighway. You got it wrong. It was the internet. Who do you think is going to be way 472 00:27:35,096 --> 00:27:39,836 farther ahead, be able to attract the best talent, know who the best talent is, have all the 473 00:27:39,836 --> 00:27:43,456 infrastructure ready to rock and roll? Is it going to be, yes, they're good engineers, but they've 474 00:27:43,456 --> 00:27:49,436 devoted 95% of their time building this thing that's going to die. If you just think about it 475 00:27:49,436 --> 00:27:53,296 for a minute, like all the tempos that we talked about this on PBJ. Think about it. They're 476 00:27:53,296 --> 00:27:56,576 building a database, just a database. It's a little bit of theater around it, but it's a 477 00:27:56,576 --> 00:28:01,576 database. Do you think Audion's going to use their database? Absolutely not. When Google 478 00:28:01,576 --> 00:28:04,356 launched one, is Facebook going to use their database? Absolutely not. And then you're going 479 00:28:04,356 --> 00:28:07,376 to go through the wars of like, they're going to go through all the things we've gone through as 480 00:28:07,376 --> 00:28:10,376 Bitcoiners many times. They said, well, who's going to market make between them? Man, wouldn't 481 00:28:10,376 --> 00:28:14,116 it be cool if we were in some interoperable network, which is how Visa emerged and that's 482 00:28:14,116 --> 00:28:18,076 what Bitcoin is, the internet. So anyways, so in that time present, I'm betting on Block all day, 483 00:28:18,076 --> 00:28:23,456 every day because, first of all, I know who's finding the best talent in the world, and they're 484 00:28:23,456 --> 00:28:26,396 just so far ahead of the competition, it's going to be impossible, especially in this mind you. 485 00:28:26,516 --> 00:28:32,556 But that's a time horizon, right? The other thing I would say is you also, as an investor or a 486 00:28:32,556 --> 00:28:36,556 founder, we can be very ideological, and we're very lucky that many people in this space are. 487 00:28:36,636 --> 00:28:39,416 That's going to change. Just like the early internet, there was a lot of ideologues. 488 00:28:39,656 --> 00:28:44,396 Back when it was the well, it was better. But eventually, companies come in, this and that. 489 00:28:44,396 --> 00:28:49,176 but you also have to earn the right, in my opinion, to be an ideal law. You can't just die. You can't 490 00:28:49,176 --> 00:28:54,916 just like, oh, we need the sort of largesse of the billionaires to help us out. And we're grateful 491 00:28:54,916 --> 00:28:59,776 that we have that, but that comes and goes. And so from that perspective, if I just put on my, 492 00:28:59,896 --> 00:29:04,776 I want to make money out of the public markets, again, not financial advice, but micro strategies 493 00:29:04,776 --> 00:29:08,596 where it's at, because you look at how things are going step by step. It's like, first you just buy 494 00:29:08,596 --> 00:29:12,556 Bitcoin and HODL. Then you realize, oh, we can speculative attack the dollar by taking infinite 495 00:29:12,556 --> 00:29:14,456 monopoly money, buying up the scarce asset. 496 00:29:14,616 --> 00:29:14,776 Hmm. 497 00:29:14,856 --> 00:29:17,556 Wonder who's going to do really well in that 10 year horizon. 498 00:29:18,016 --> 00:29:20,996 Micro strategy is like, in my opinion, the perfect money making strategy. 499 00:29:21,116 --> 00:29:22,496 I'm skeptical of all the other companies. 500 00:29:23,916 --> 00:29:29,636 But, you know, the more you use that strategy of where we are with the forces of nature, 501 00:29:29,776 --> 00:29:32,976 which is accumulate the Bitcoin, you more you earn the right to do the cool things. 502 00:29:33,416 --> 00:29:36,236 And so I mentioned like all the infrastructure companies that I invested. 503 00:29:36,356 --> 00:29:40,196 I think one of the most underreported stories walks in this case to Tesla's in this case 504 00:29:40,196 --> 00:29:41,676 is they all buy Bitcoin. 505 00:29:41,676 --> 00:29:41,796 Yeah. 506 00:29:42,556 --> 00:29:44,636 and because their ID logs, they're never going to quit. 507 00:29:44,856 --> 00:29:47,416 And so they're earning that right by doing really well 508 00:29:47,416 --> 00:29:50,556 just by like, as Bitcoin goes up, right? 509 00:29:50,636 --> 00:29:51,476 Like we're crazy. 510 00:29:51,556 --> 00:29:52,996 We think it's going to $10 million a coin. 511 00:29:53,656 --> 00:29:55,276 They may not ever need to raise again. 512 00:29:55,556 --> 00:29:58,516 And in that world, they've earned the right to do the right thing 513 00:29:58,516 --> 00:30:00,236 and to be there when the internet catches on. 514 00:30:00,436 --> 00:30:01,016 That's the way I do it. 515 00:30:01,576 --> 00:30:04,456 DJ, I just wanted to circle back to the point that you made 516 00:30:04,456 --> 00:30:08,096 about the intersection between Bitcoin and the AI, 517 00:30:08,296 --> 00:30:09,796 just to call you the degree of inspectors, 518 00:30:09,876 --> 00:30:11,256 we're moving into the brainstorming outside. 519 00:30:11,256 --> 00:30:18,216 so in terms of use cases or product ideas or anything that's come to you and feel comfortable 520 00:30:18,216 --> 00:30:22,856 to share what you feel comfortable sharing what are some of the ideas and the intersections 521 00:30:22,856 --> 00:30:30,656 where bitcoin meets ai that you think might be needed right now in the future and that question 522 00:30:30,656 --> 00:30:39,316 calls my guess but i could imagine you know like right now i'm i'm working on a new idea that i 523 00:30:39,316 --> 00:30:46,696 just started this week and it helps people with video generation and video generation has a cost 524 00:30:46,696 --> 00:30:54,356 to it so to use the underlying atis like gemini you know seed dance seed dream um cling those are 525 00:30:54,356 --> 00:30:59,956 some of the popular ones you have to actually pay to use those atis but if i want to present that to 526 00:30:59,956 --> 00:31:07,236 a user to be able to interact with on the web i need to collect some money for that just some idea 527 00:31:07,236 --> 00:31:11,976 I can help with. I started making this thing. How am I going to collect NamUs? Well, if they're in 528 00:31:11,976 --> 00:31:16,636 the US and they have credit cards, great. I don't care if they want to use Apple Pay or Stripe or 529 00:31:16,636 --> 00:31:20,956 whatever. I don't have that card built, but I could imagine that some people will want that. 530 00:31:21,456 --> 00:31:25,636 But I could imagine there's people in the world who might want to use this kind of service who 531 00:31:25,636 --> 00:31:33,496 don't have the ability to use the Stripe Braille or aren't on the credit card networks. So that's 532 00:31:33,496 --> 00:31:38,396 just like a very concrete example where i want to provide this service to people i don't know 533 00:31:38,396 --> 00:31:43,396 if they can all pay me in the traditional way so i would like to also accept bitcoin as a way to pay 534 00:31:43,396 --> 00:31:48,236 and then they can self-select for whatever way they want to pay like in a sense i like to try to 535 00:31:48,236 --> 00:31:53,576 be non-ideological about it just with my own just my own interest is like hey if it's helpful use it 536 00:31:53,576 --> 00:31:58,356 and i i hope to discover places where it could be helpful and inspire places where it could be 537 00:31:58,356 --> 00:32:04,096 helpful but i don't want to tell you go build you know team your bitcoin does i said so because 538 00:32:04,096 --> 00:32:07,796 otherwise then what's going to happen is somebody else will build a competitive service and just 539 00:32:07,796 --> 00:32:13,756 accept it over visa network right so i want to like in a sense create moments to discover what 540 00:32:13,756 --> 00:32:20,596 the uh what what where where bitcoin really shines for being first required in a sense or where the 541 00:32:20,596 --> 00:32:25,376 customers choose to use it compared to the alternatives um and i think you know that's 542 00:32:25,376 --> 00:32:29,176 just like a simple example because there's a cost and you can charge for it so you can sort of reach 543 00:32:29,176 --> 00:32:34,116 that and because it's on the web so it's not in an app store so you can do that um but i think 544 00:32:34,116 --> 00:32:39,156 there's like you know there's all kinds of examples i mean i've said before i think like the adult 545 00:32:39,156 --> 00:32:44,876 stuff and the gaming stuff are areas that like that's basically how the internet got a lot of 546 00:32:44,876 --> 00:32:52,316 product market fit steve's about to hear this from dk a lot bitcoin core v30 it optimizes for the 547 00:32:52,316 --> 00:33:00,496 foreign but i mean it does it does drive a lot of innovation because it's like follow the twitter 548 00:33:00,496 --> 00:33:06,596 debate what does that mean it's part of the knots versus core debate the knots crowd and saying that 549 00:33:06,596 --> 00:33:13,836 bitcoin core is optimizing for or um i learned something new today like like like gambling and 550 00:33:13,836 --> 00:33:19,356 gaming drove a lot of early internet i don't know if you remember it it steve and i met when we 551 00:33:19,356 --> 00:33:21,176 worked on the mobile team at Google, kind of 552 00:33:21,176 --> 00:33:23,316 pre-Android. It was very early. And I remember 553 00:33:23,316 --> 00:33:24,576 that back in those early days, 554 00:33:25,676 --> 00:33:27,456 60% of the 555 00:33:27,456 --> 00:33:29,356 mobile search queries were 556 00:33:29,356 --> 00:33:31,396 for adult content at Google. 557 00:33:31,816 --> 00:33:33,436 And you don't think of Google as 558 00:33:33,436 --> 00:33:34,916 some adult type of 559 00:33:34,916 --> 00:33:37,376 service. You're just like, it's just Google 560 00:33:37,376 --> 00:33:39,136 search, right? You think Google Maps 561 00:33:39,136 --> 00:33:39,696 queries? 562 00:33:41,396 --> 00:33:42,876 Are you serious? Damn. 563 00:33:44,216 --> 00:33:45,436 Not that high, but 564 00:33:45,436 --> 00:33:47,356 there was a material amount of 565 00:33:47,356 --> 00:33:49,276 adult queries. But I'm 566 00:33:49,356 --> 00:33:52,996 I'm not advocating for that as a type of service. 567 00:33:53,156 --> 00:33:55,476 I'm saying that that is just revealed preference. 568 00:33:55,676 --> 00:33:57,556 That's what people choose to do. 569 00:33:57,636 --> 00:33:59,996 If you put up a box, people choose to do that. 570 00:34:00,696 --> 00:34:04,176 And so, and I think that Bitcoin can support, 571 00:34:04,316 --> 00:34:05,336 Bitcoin and Bitcoin payments, 572 00:34:05,536 --> 00:34:07,056 privacy you get, lightning payments, 573 00:34:07,316 --> 00:34:10,296 is probably one of the like, 574 00:34:10,516 --> 00:34:11,876 it's not just a nice to have, 575 00:34:11,876 --> 00:34:14,336 there's more of a need to have in some of those situations. 576 00:34:14,816 --> 00:34:16,036 But I mean, we're just talking, 577 00:34:16,456 --> 00:34:18,436 you can have, you know, 578 00:34:18,436 --> 00:34:19,796 there's infinite creativity in the world. 579 00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:22,196 We're not going to design all the best ideas, 580 00:34:22,396 --> 00:34:24,576 but when you sort of open up the toolkit 581 00:34:24,576 --> 00:34:26,396 of anybody with an idea, 582 00:34:26,696 --> 00:34:28,536 even with no technical knowledge, 583 00:34:28,816 --> 00:34:29,916 just basically have an idea, 584 00:34:30,016 --> 00:34:30,856 you can now make it. 585 00:34:31,416 --> 00:34:31,976 And you can say, 586 00:34:32,556 --> 00:34:34,796 you know, copy this stuff from Matt's GitHub 587 00:34:34,796 --> 00:34:37,456 and now you can actually accept Bitcoin payments, 588 00:34:38,016 --> 00:34:39,116 even if you don't really know anything 589 00:34:39,116 --> 00:34:40,536 about Bitcoin or Lightning 590 00:34:40,536 --> 00:34:42,256 and you just like just don't accept payments. 591 00:34:42,696 --> 00:34:43,516 You can do that now. 592 00:34:43,776 --> 00:34:45,936 And that's a massive innovation. 593 00:34:46,096 --> 00:34:47,476 That's a massive change in the world. 594 00:34:47,476 --> 00:34:52,056 that's like you're no longer fighting gravity gravity's you know you're just chasing off the 595 00:34:52,056 --> 00:34:58,016 building ledge you know you're sort of falling and it's like yeah the tailwind now oh sorry i 596 00:34:58,016 --> 00:35:02,436 wanted to add one thing that so i agree with dk on the sort of gray areas of the internet that's 597 00:35:02,436 --> 00:35:07,336 always that's so great that's how bitcoin got big in the first place and i think that um i'm 598 00:35:07,336 --> 00:35:12,456 surprised being some more like like i wanna that's like an area they get they only do cash and expect 599 00:35:12,456 --> 00:35:17,416 some more of that happening um torrents and some device torrents that's very i'm very interested in 600 00:35:17,416 --> 00:35:20,476 But in terms of the more palatable things, two things I want to highlight. 601 00:35:20,936 --> 00:35:25,156 Number one, we've talked a lot about this digital life in the future. 602 00:35:25,276 --> 00:35:27,596 If you really want to have autonomous digital life, Bitcoin's going to answer. 603 00:35:28,136 --> 00:35:37,896 So I think DK, Matt have a surprise I won't tell them about, but they have a brilliant idea that allows you to maybe fund some AI. 604 00:35:38,036 --> 00:35:48,194 So that really cool So second thing I say is I think people that just want to vibe code but for whatever reason can touch the traditional rails 605 00:35:48,314 --> 00:35:51,974 That could be because you live in the wrong country, like India, or it's something that 606 00:35:51,974 --> 00:35:53,734 I actually am getting increasingly convicted on. 607 00:35:54,274 --> 00:35:56,454 I was put in touch by a friend. 608 00:35:56,574 --> 00:35:58,834 There's like this whole substack world I wasn't even aware of. 609 00:35:59,294 --> 00:36:01,774 And I read he put me in touch with someone from an energy substack. 610 00:36:02,494 --> 00:36:03,214 Extremely brilliant. 611 00:36:04,034 --> 00:36:04,854 I talked to the kid. 612 00:36:04,934 --> 00:36:07,514 I'm like, who the fuck is this that knows all of this about energy markets? 613 00:36:07,514 --> 00:36:09,114 is so incredibly intelligent. 614 00:36:09,654 --> 00:36:11,934 And the kid looks like 25 max. 615 00:36:13,414 --> 00:36:13,774 Max. 616 00:36:14,474 --> 00:36:15,094 Like for all I know, 617 00:36:15,134 --> 00:36:16,014 this kid's like 16. 618 00:36:16,674 --> 00:36:17,454 And I'm thinking to myself, 619 00:36:17,534 --> 00:36:18,094 that's right though. 620 00:36:18,294 --> 00:36:18,834 Like the smart, 621 00:36:18,934 --> 00:36:19,634 like think about this. 622 00:36:19,894 --> 00:36:21,054 Many of you guys in the audience, 623 00:36:21,134 --> 00:36:22,114 many people you knew when you were kids, 624 00:36:22,174 --> 00:36:23,134 like the smartest people. 625 00:36:23,814 --> 00:36:24,194 I mean, 626 00:36:24,314 --> 00:36:25,974 you were smart when you were 16 in high school. 627 00:36:25,974 --> 00:36:26,714 As you get older, 628 00:36:26,874 --> 00:36:28,234 everyone looks really young. 629 00:36:30,554 --> 00:36:30,954 Well, 630 00:36:31,214 --> 00:36:33,194 I felt old in this conversation. 631 00:36:33,774 --> 00:36:34,614 Kind of sucks. 632 00:36:34,774 --> 00:36:35,154 But anyways, 633 00:36:36,494 --> 00:36:36,994 such a light. 634 00:36:36,994 --> 00:36:40,954 But increasingly, I'm like, well, think about you double that up. 635 00:36:40,974 --> 00:36:42,374 There's a kid in India who's 16. 636 00:36:42,594 --> 00:36:44,234 Why can't they build the biggest business in the world? 637 00:36:44,274 --> 00:36:44,834 They probably will. 638 00:36:45,674 --> 00:36:46,274 Can they use Strip? 639 00:36:46,354 --> 00:36:47,374 No, they don't even have an ID. 640 00:36:48,114 --> 00:36:49,214 They're not legal. 641 00:36:49,634 --> 00:36:53,794 So I'm also very bullish on these sort of like NIMS that are probably like the genius kids. 642 00:36:54,094 --> 00:36:55,774 That's probably what's going to pop. 643 00:36:56,634 --> 00:36:57,854 You got a question or a comment? 644 00:36:58,514 --> 00:36:58,754 Here. 645 00:37:00,834 --> 00:37:01,754 I think there was a... 646 00:37:02,394 --> 00:37:06,974 Also, if I worked at Microsoft, a lot of search and query on things. 647 00:37:06,994 --> 00:37:07,974 those all certain ones. 648 00:37:09,894 --> 00:37:12,894 One of the things I've been thinking about 649 00:37:12,894 --> 00:37:14,754 is using 650 00:37:14,754 --> 00:37:16,934 Bitcoin as a payment method and accepting 651 00:37:16,934 --> 00:37:19,074 Bitcoin as payment, especially for 652 00:37:19,074 --> 00:37:21,114 folks maybe who don't have access to things 653 00:37:21,114 --> 00:37:21,594 like Stripe. 654 00:37:23,254 --> 00:37:24,814 And I was talking to somebody else about this 655 00:37:24,814 --> 00:37:27,154 this week also. The fact 656 00:37:27,154 --> 00:37:29,014 that the Bitcoin asset value 657 00:37:29,014 --> 00:37:30,674 is so high and continues to 658 00:37:30,674 --> 00:37:32,954 go up, I think for normies like 659 00:37:32,954 --> 00:37:33,854 myself and others, 660 00:37:34,754 --> 00:37:35,614 it feels 661 00:37:35,614 --> 00:37:41,154 like it feels disaccentivizing to use it as a payment method you know like us all are losing 662 00:37:41,154 --> 00:37:49,874 value every day and incentivize to spend them but with bitcoin i've usually seen my value of bitcoin 663 00:37:49,874 --> 00:37:53,574 go up over the years and i'm like i don't want to spend this i don't want to send this to anybody 664 00:37:53,574 --> 00:37:57,734 because it's and i i know that it seems like a time horizon thing also right like eventually 665 00:37:57,734 --> 00:38:00,754 bitcoin's going to be the thing that we use and it's not going to be dollars and it's going to 666 00:38:00,754 --> 00:38:02,794 flood about its head. But to get there, 667 00:38:03,194 --> 00:38:04,794 I've, you know, sort of when I 668 00:38:04,794 --> 00:38:06,814 talk to people I know who have Bitcoin, none of them are 669 00:38:06,814 --> 00:38:08,754 interested in, and they're not part of 670 00:38:08,754 --> 00:38:10,954 this type of community. We're not Bitcoiners 671 00:38:10,954 --> 00:38:12,814 at all. Don't want to 672 00:38:12,814 --> 00:38:14,654 spend it because they're like, well, I'm using money. 673 00:38:14,734 --> 00:38:16,874 Why would I spend this thing that continues to appreciate value? 674 00:38:17,034 --> 00:38:18,694 How do we, how does that change 675 00:38:18,694 --> 00:38:20,814 for the average person? I love this 676 00:38:20,814 --> 00:38:21,114 topic. 677 00:38:23,854 --> 00:38:24,254 So 678 00:38:24,254 --> 00:38:26,674 I both kind of agree with it and disagree with it. 679 00:38:26,734 --> 00:38:28,754 I mean, I'd say 680 00:38:28,754 --> 00:38:30,734 that the number one reason people aren't spending 681 00:38:30,734 --> 00:38:32,774 their Bitcoin is because there's not really good reasons 682 00:38:32,774 --> 00:38:33,054 to. 683 00:38:35,634 --> 00:38:36,654 Let's say you wanted 684 00:38:36,654 --> 00:38:38,774 VPN access or some 685 00:38:38,774 --> 00:38:40,454 kind of great market. You want to gamble 686 00:38:40,454 --> 00:38:42,794 and that's really important to you. 687 00:38:42,854 --> 00:38:44,214 The only way you could do it 688 00:38:44,214 --> 00:38:45,894 is with Bitcoin. 689 00:38:46,554 --> 00:38:48,634 Even if you believe 690 00:38:48,634 --> 00:38:50,714 the number is going to go up and you think 691 00:38:50,714 --> 00:38:51,974 US dollars is going to go down, 692 00:38:53,274 --> 00:38:54,214 let's say you have 693 00:38:54,214 --> 00:38:56,334 $20,000 or $50,000 694 00:38:56,334 --> 00:38:58,914 of Bitcoin in savings. Great. Don't touch that. 695 00:38:58,914 --> 00:39:06,514 Just take a portion of your paycheck, $50 worth, turn it into Bitcoin so you can gamble your $50 for your entertainment value. 696 00:39:06,814 --> 00:39:09,214 So it's not like you have to choose between the two. 697 00:39:10,574 --> 00:39:17,154 So I think the number one reason people aren't spending their Bitcoin is there's not yet great reasons to spend your Bitcoin. 698 00:39:18,394 --> 00:39:26,474 And then also I agree with everything you said about longer term volatility goes down and it just basically can replace the dollar. 699 00:39:26,474 --> 00:39:53,334 But think about, I mean, you can always, I think, kind of to dovetail on that, you can always spend and replace. If you want to spend something that requires Bitcoin, you can always replace the Bitcoin with whatever else. But this is not a problem that's unique to Bitcoin anyway. You could, you know, there's other assets in the world that you're like, well, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to sell my house because I think it's going to go up. I don't want to sell my Mag7 stuff because I think it's going to go up. There's all kinds of things that are probably going to go up because of how bad the dollar is. 700 00:39:53,334 --> 00:39:58,674 so so the only thing you want i mean bitcoin's probably the best thing to hold but everything 701 00:39:58,674 --> 00:40:04,554 is a trade-off versus you know what else you could do with it so just like take the whole sum of 702 00:40:04,554 --> 00:40:10,114 everything that you could do and hold almost no cash i mean i was literally having this discussion 703 00:40:10,114 --> 00:40:13,894 with my wife this morning it's like i'd never want to hold any cash it's like if we have a bill 704 00:40:13,894 --> 00:40:18,334 let's convert it in cash just to pay the bill otherwise you don't want to hold any cash that's 705 00:40:18,334 --> 00:40:23,414 actually the that that framing i've heard other people say it and i think it's a good intellectual 706 00:40:23,414 --> 00:40:27,974 exercise which is if you believe that you don't want to sell your bit you don't want to spend your 707 00:40:27,974 --> 00:40:31,954 bitcoin because you think it's going to go up then why do you have any dollars at all you should be 708 00:40:31,954 --> 00:40:36,534 all in on bitcoin get on zero and then when you need to pay a bill you convert it to dollars now 709 00:40:36,534 --> 00:40:41,794 that i would not advise people actually do that because while i'm a huge believer in the long-term 710 00:40:41,794 --> 00:40:47,494 appreciation of bitcoin when you need to pay a bill in a week or a month um you know like 711 00:40:47,494 --> 00:40:52,894 holding the dollar is more, or whatever your liability is in, is more substantive. 712 00:40:53,334 --> 00:40:57,554 I want to add just two quick things in that. I think it's worth mentioning. We've talked about 713 00:40:57,554 --> 00:41:01,174 this a lot on the show, so you can go maybe find some of the old episodes of this, but there's 714 00:41:01,174 --> 00:41:05,434 Bitcoin, the network, Bitcoin, the asset too. I'm particularly bullish on using dollars that are 715 00:41:05,434 --> 00:41:08,994 interoperable with Bitcoin-like network. I don't think it's going to be the stable points. Those 716 00:41:08,994 --> 00:41:14,434 are intranets. Remember, Bitcoin is internet. And so to me, it could be Spark. I see a Spark 717 00:41:14,434 --> 00:41:15,454 had in the audience. 718 00:41:16,054 --> 00:41:17,214 That could be the way it happened. 719 00:41:17,634 --> 00:41:18,754 Could be cashewments. 720 00:41:19,214 --> 00:41:20,374 Could be a lot of different things. 721 00:41:20,434 --> 00:41:21,134 Maybe it's all of them, 722 00:41:21,374 --> 00:41:23,214 but all interoperate with Bitcoin and Lightning. 723 00:41:23,694 --> 00:41:25,634 Because I agree, it's kind of true. 724 00:41:25,774 --> 00:41:27,014 Why would you spend your Bitcoin? 725 00:41:27,374 --> 00:41:28,334 You probably shouldn't. 726 00:41:29,594 --> 00:41:30,774 Also, why would you hold cash 727 00:41:30,774 --> 00:41:32,374 unless you have a future liability? 728 00:41:32,614 --> 00:41:33,554 Well, I'll tell you, 729 00:41:33,574 --> 00:41:34,834 the only other reason to hold cash, 730 00:41:34,954 --> 00:41:36,054 and I think this is sadly, 731 00:41:36,154 --> 00:41:36,994 it's a political issue, 732 00:41:36,994 --> 00:41:38,114 is just the tax treatment. 733 00:41:38,674 --> 00:41:39,594 Giant pain in the ass. 734 00:41:39,714 --> 00:41:41,554 If there were no taxes, 735 00:41:42,094 --> 00:41:43,714 the world would be a very different place. 736 00:41:43,714 --> 00:41:49,134 But in that world, yeah, I mean, it's a pain. 737 00:41:49,274 --> 00:41:53,974 And there's companies like Strike that do help you, I guess, with some of that conversion stuff. 738 00:41:54,074 --> 00:41:58,814 But yeah, I mean, if you figure that piece out, I don't understand why you have a dollar sweet pepper. 739 00:42:01,234 --> 00:42:02,534 Yeah, I just have a quick question. 740 00:42:02,614 --> 00:42:06,514 I used to work in Silicon Valley and now a Bitcoiner. 741 00:42:06,514 --> 00:42:16,094 So I feel like I've gotten a lot of anecdotal evidence of like my basic thesis is that people in Silicon Valley realize they are the biggest beneficiaries observed. 742 00:42:17,814 --> 00:42:18,374 Truth. 743 00:42:18,934 --> 00:42:19,114 Yeah. 744 00:42:19,234 --> 00:42:22,234 Whether that's like through first principles or instinctually or something. 745 00:42:22,414 --> 00:42:28,894 So they're naturally resistant to Bitcoin, I think, to some degree, because they are the very beneficiaries. 746 00:42:29,234 --> 00:42:30,994 I agree with that. 747 00:42:31,174 --> 00:42:34,014 And I don't think it's not like intentional thinking. 748 00:42:34,014 --> 00:42:38,574 It's more just like if you work at Google or in Silicon Valley, like life is good. 749 00:42:38,754 --> 00:42:40,514 Things are working out well for you. 750 00:42:41,194 --> 00:42:44,014 Or if you're a venture capitalist or an entrepreneur or whatever, like here. 751 00:42:44,174 --> 00:42:45,734 That's literally close to the money printer. 752 00:42:46,174 --> 00:42:46,314 Yeah. 753 00:42:46,494 --> 00:42:52,674 So it's not like I don't think people in Silicon Valley are like being intentionally evil about that. 754 00:42:52,734 --> 00:42:53,734 It's just things are working out. 755 00:42:53,874 --> 00:42:54,294 They're smart. 756 00:42:54,434 --> 00:42:55,314 They're doing well. 757 00:42:55,774 --> 00:42:58,594 And so they don't really carve out much time. 758 00:42:58,894 --> 00:43:00,374 I think it's very typical. 759 00:43:00,554 --> 00:43:02,254 You're super busy doing your thing. 760 00:43:02,254 --> 00:43:06,994 you don't carve out time to consider bitcoin like my own personal story i learned a bit in 761 00:43:06,994 --> 00:43:13,214 2013 uh courtesy of matt and one other person i've worked with at google um so you know bought a 762 00:43:13,214 --> 00:43:18,634 little bit read the white paper but then in i i wasn't i was never negative on bitcoin but i 763 00:43:18,634 --> 00:43:22,594 definitely in 2013 i thought it was like this magic internet money and then it went up and down and 764 00:43:22,594 --> 00:43:26,674 you know i just moved on in my life kept working at google doing other stuff didn't even think 765 00:43:26,674 --> 00:43:28,394 about Bitcoin for four more years. 766 00:43:28,914 --> 00:43:30,654 And then I had left 767 00:43:30,654 --> 00:43:31,674 Google in 2015 768 00:43:31,674 --> 00:43:34,494 and in early 2017 769 00:43:34,494 --> 00:43:36,954 so I didn't have a job in early 2017 770 00:43:36,954 --> 00:43:38,034 and I was a professional. 771 00:43:38,334 --> 00:43:39,954 Yeah, I was a professional. 772 00:43:40,754 --> 00:43:45,094 But I had time on my hands. 773 00:43:45,934 --> 00:43:47,034 So that time on my hands 774 00:43:47,034 --> 00:43:48,634 allowed me to deeply 775 00:43:48,634 --> 00:43:50,914 study cryptocurrency at large 776 00:43:50,914 --> 00:43:52,854 and so 2017 777 00:43:52,854 --> 00:43:53,954 is when I really 778 00:43:53,954 --> 00:43:57,774 firmly grasped Bitcoin in a way that I hadn't in the past. 779 00:43:59,694 --> 00:44:01,334 And I've seen that. 780 00:44:01,494 --> 00:44:02,454 I don't think I'm unique. 781 00:44:02,714 --> 00:44:05,174 I've seen that pattern with people from Silicon Valley 782 00:44:05,174 --> 00:44:07,714 who end up having some time to think about this, 783 00:44:07,774 --> 00:44:10,654 learning about money, like a history of money, 784 00:44:11,054 --> 00:44:13,614 can be much more open to it 785 00:44:13,614 --> 00:44:15,834 versus if you're busy building 786 00:44:15,834 --> 00:44:18,614 or busy in the Google bubble or building a startup. 787 00:44:19,554 --> 00:44:21,334 Yeah, I actually had the exact same experience 788 00:44:21,334 --> 00:44:22,894 and that's around the time I met Steve. 789 00:44:22,894 --> 00:44:29,494 I also read about Bitcoin super early on 2011 did not buy any wish I had and it wasn't until 790 00:44:29,494 --> 00:44:34,474 basically I like you know took you know a year or two off because I was living in Mexico it was 791 00:44:34,474 --> 00:44:39,534 very cheap and that's when I just had infinite time on my hands and I just like read more and 792 00:44:39,534 --> 00:44:43,694 more to programming classes learned about like all the beauty realizes it was an Einstein Newton 793 00:44:43,694 --> 00:44:47,914 level breakthrough of like taking the mental realm connecting with the physical all these 794 00:44:47,914 --> 00:44:49,434 things, energy back to money, all this stuff. 795 00:44:49,834 --> 00:44:51,554 But I mean, I didn't have a job. 796 00:44:52,474 --> 00:44:54,654 And I guess that was extremely lucky, extremely fortunate. 797 00:44:54,874 --> 00:44:58,714 And I think for most people, I don't think I've ever met a single person, unless it's 798 00:44:58,714 --> 00:45:04,374 maybe like the chairman of the Federal Reserve or Warren Buffett, that has put 100 hours 799 00:45:04,374 --> 00:45:08,354 or even 10 hours into reading about Bitcoin that doesn't realize, oh man, this is big. 800 00:45:09,634 --> 00:45:10,594 What's the litmus test? 801 00:45:10,594 --> 00:45:16,494 Do you have sort of your own calibration of how you can assess if somebody has spent the 802 00:45:16,494 --> 00:45:16,954 time or not? 803 00:45:17,914 --> 00:45:26,234 just talk to them but like well i have a specific thing in mind that i can ask them okay tell us 804 00:45:26,234 --> 00:45:33,814 he's like do you know what the difficulty adjustment is i think that's sort of like 805 00:45:33,814 --> 00:45:38,754 once you come to that understanding which like a lot of people who hold bitcoin and believe in 806 00:45:38,754 --> 00:45:42,734 don't really understand i think if you've done that then i'm like okay you've probably done 807 00:45:42,734 --> 00:45:44,874 enough work that you 808 00:45:44,874 --> 00:45:47,134 can understand and explain enough about 809 00:45:47,134 --> 00:45:48,934 the specialness of this network. 810 00:45:49,294 --> 00:45:50,574 That's a good, that's a good 811 00:45:50,574 --> 00:45:52,134 test. I do think that's like 812 00:45:52,134 --> 00:45:55,014 on a short list of 813 00:45:55,014 --> 00:45:56,654 incredible inventions and 814 00:45:56,654 --> 00:45:58,214 uniqueness of Bitcoin. What's yours? 815 00:45:58,714 --> 00:46:00,494 This is a good question. I haven't thought of it. 816 00:46:00,634 --> 00:46:02,054 I think that's a very good one. 817 00:46:02,794 --> 00:46:04,734 For me, I come from a slightly 818 00:46:04,734 --> 00:46:06,794 different background. I was in energy and I 819 00:46:06,794 --> 00:46:08,954 still am. And so I appreciate 820 00:46:08,954 --> 00:46:10,414 when it's energy back to money. 821 00:46:10,414 --> 00:46:14,174 And so I sell blockchain as an enabling technology, but like not the thing. 822 00:46:14,714 --> 00:46:21,314 And so for my industry, and this is like people I talk to from solar or in Texas, it's a lot easier to explain that. 823 00:46:21,454 --> 00:46:22,434 And this is something I always tell people. 824 00:46:22,534 --> 00:46:24,714 There's only one currency at the known universe, and it's jewels. 825 00:46:25,274 --> 00:46:28,534 Everything we've ever used as a monetary good is a proxy on jewels, full stop. 826 00:46:28,614 --> 00:46:29,434 There's nothing else. 827 00:46:30,734 --> 00:46:33,334 And this is the purest proxy on jewels of all time. 828 00:46:33,394 --> 00:46:34,914 Then you see the greatest minds in the industry. 829 00:46:35,554 --> 00:46:38,794 Tesla, Edison have all seen that coming. 830 00:46:38,994 --> 00:46:39,914 That was a click for me. 831 00:46:39,914 --> 00:46:45,174 So for at least from people in that world, once they see it as energy money, then it's a different story. 832 00:46:46,074 --> 00:46:50,034 Guys, I think we could probably go all morning here, but maybe just two or three more minutes and then we'll wrap up. 833 00:46:50,094 --> 00:46:51,334 I want to be respectful of your time. 834 00:46:52,354 --> 00:46:54,114 So it sounds like being unemployed. 835 00:46:54,894 --> 00:46:55,654 Unemployed is huge. 836 00:46:55,954 --> 00:46:56,474 It's huge. 837 00:46:56,594 --> 00:46:57,994 It's the new Ron Paul fan. 838 00:46:58,314 --> 00:46:59,854 That's our guidance to Silicon Valley. 839 00:47:00,594 --> 00:47:01,374 Quit your jobs. 840 00:47:01,634 --> 00:47:02,534 Quit your AI job. 841 00:47:02,854 --> 00:47:03,154 Seriously. 842 00:47:03,294 --> 00:47:05,394 Quit your best invest Google job. 843 00:47:05,754 --> 00:47:07,094 That I actually would recommend. 844 00:47:07,094 --> 00:47:08,674 meant. If you're Google Resting investing, 845 00:47:09,574 --> 00:47:10,914 you've already got enough money. 846 00:47:11,194 --> 00:47:13,094 Quit. Study AI. 847 00:47:13,294 --> 00:47:14,934 Study Bitcoin. Study whatever you're interested in. 848 00:47:16,874 --> 00:47:19,014 So if indeed you need 849 00:47:19,014 --> 00:47:20,194 to be unemployed to get 850 00:47:20,194 --> 00:47:23,114 Bitcoin on a deep level, how do you expect 851 00:47:23,114 --> 00:47:24,934 that Elon Musk with his end company 852 00:47:24,934 --> 00:47:27,194 is going to get Bitcoin? Because he's way smarter than I. 853 00:47:31,034 --> 00:47:32,854 Okay, let's leave it there. Thank you, guys. 854 00:47:32,994 --> 00:47:33,414 That was awesome. 855 00:47:37,094 --> 00:48:07,074 Thank you.