And we're live.
Yes, live.
Here we are.
Welcome to another episode of PBJ.
Yeah.
Matt Coate in the house.
Oh.
You already commented.
Yeah, number one, baby.
Get in there.
First comment.
Good to have you.
Yeah, good to have you.
You know, we were very close to not being able to do a live stream today.
So I heard.
Or even any show at all.
Any show at all?
Well, because DK's remote, so we need internet.
That's right.
And there was a power outage in the Presidio this morning.
Unexpected.
And it took hours for technical support to get the internet working.
I hear it was because there was probably, I don't know,
was it a data center or some Bitcoin miners?
That was interesting.
I don't have a second at all.
AI.
Definitely AI.
Bitcoin only helps with that.
But we're here.
We're here.
It's nice to see you guys.
Actually, real talk.
I think the Presidio,
correct me if I'm wrong,
they may have some
like independent microgrid.
There's like something special here.
They were at one point
were trying to go completely solar
and have their own batteries.
I don't know if that actually worked out.
It does seem though
like if they try to do that,
they haven't done a good job
because I think this is the second time
we've had a power arch
in the last like year.
That sounds right.
Yeah.
I know of there being
a separate water system,
but I didn't know about a separate grid.
Like I think Presidio water
is not from Hetch Hetchy.
Yeah, it's a terawatt scale.
No, it's definitely not.
This would probably be like,
kilowatt scale, given how faulty this is.
Or it's an attempted terawatt scale
that is a failure.
A major failure.
But we're here, so that's good.
We're here, we're learning,
we've got a lot of stuff to discuss.
Dekia was giving us an astrology lesson a minute ago.
Astronomy.
Astronomy and astronomy.
Oh, sorry, sorry, I get those mixed up.
Oh, I was promised astrology.
Yeah, exactly, Dekia.
I was.
I was actually, so I'm going to catch up a little bit on some life stuff because I was just traveling and I know that I've had some, let's say I've had underwhelming experiences with full self-driving supervised on the Tesla.
And I resubbed and I'd say it is improved.
So I am.
I don't know.
He doesn't have the latest hardware.
Yeah.
I have hardware three.
It's old.
I'm among the poors who have old cars.
selective Elon hater
no not
not a hater
but DK what did you want to share about your
latest
FSD experience
the big deal is that it actually
it works a lot better than it did
last time I had it six months ago
but the big thing to note
is it worked so well I was driving through
the Nevada desert
and I got
chat GPT has
this codex vibe coding product like a cli tool right and i had the computer open and i was just
talking to it and i would just say continue like i gave it a plan before i started driving of like
a bunch of stuff i wanted to accomplish and it would just churn through it and it would just rip
and rip and rip and then it would finish and i just every 10 or 15 minutes i'd open up the
screen check over and make sure it was done and had something else to do and it always had its
own plan of what it wanted to do next. And I would just say, go ahead, continue, continue.
So I was basically vibe coding for five hours while like full self-driving.
Wow.
Do you have a setup where like a text to speech where it can speak to you, its output?
I can't hear it. It can hear me. So I speak to it to say, continue.
I would feel more comfortable if you get TTS working.
I'm a huge advocate
for Tesla FSD
and I think it works great
it works great when you're
not reading a laptop screen
right right
but what I do is I let it
finish its thing
no vibe coding while driving dude
goodbye
hopefully we don't have any
California highway police
listening to the show
I would like to hear
the output or like the summary
I think that would be like my ideal vibe coding setup would be I speak to it, it does the thing.
And then, you know, I don't need to see all the interstitial like, you know, steps it takes, but that it gives me like, hey, here's a summary and it could read that to me.
That'd be ideal.
Because I have quite a bit.
I mean, do you use Grok in your Tesla?
Not in the Tesla, but I use it.
I do it all the time and it's a good experience.
You talk to it, it speaks to you.
And I mean, you just have a conversation.
And I assume that's native, right?
Like it just like rolls out on Tesla.
Yep.
it's on the string wheel, you hold the button down
and speak to it.
I wanted to write a post,
so I just gave it some notes, and then it wrote the post for me,
and then when I was back on my laptop later,
it was all available.
Did you have to configure it or set it up?
Because I don't think I've seen even that that exists.
I forget how I discovered it.
But you don't have to turn it on or enable it.
You just start going.
Yeah, it's great.
And when you say you had to write a post,
was this an expo
and like could it have
actually like tweeted for you?
Maybe.
This is just like
so I just had it available
as like a grok session.
Okay.
Cool.
When I was back on
my phone or laptop.
Beautiful.
Yeah, but it'd be interesting
to experiment with tweets.
Yeah, it'd be cool
if you get like live tweeting
while you're driving.
Hey guys, here I am.
And we got the GPS.
Probably a terrible idea.
Dropping Bitcoin along the way
So I think this is actually an interesting point
because I know we're going to talk a lot about AI
and agents and coding today
because this is the Presidio AI Builder Podcast.
But I'm interested, DK,
you mentioned you were doing the new,
you were vibing with the new Codex tool.
You know, what is your experience been?
Because it seemed like for a minute,
like everyone was using Claw.
It still seems like most people are using Claw,
but it seems like Codex had a jump.
I mean, obviously, you know,
people are using x for more things as well uh i think this is going to get into some of our
questions we have around monetary payments stuff like what what is your just kind of take state
of the art right now what's going on okay i have i have lots of opinions about this because i
basically spend all day every day doing this i love it so um so for the last several months i've
been pretty exclusively clod code like everything i usually keep uh two clod code terminals open at
a given time i like cloud code cli the command line interface tool and i use those and i kind of
bounce them off each other or i do like one task in one and while it's turning i go do something
else in the other and then when the first one finishes i'm back so i kind of just ping pong
back and forth a bunch myself and um and i was doing that to build this this new app i the one
actually started back at the um the hackathon i've actually decided to really go deep um so i'm still
work on that. Right now, I'm literally
vibe coding while we speak, as I've
done before on the show.
But it's when I'm talking about Iowa
State basketball. Exactly.
We'll be back in 10 minutes.
Hold on. I'm going to go off on a tangent
real quick. I won't talk about the results
because we've been losing, but
we had a comment on our YouTube
from someone who
is a Bitcoiner. They discovered the show
and then they said in their
comment, two minutes into the show,
we were talking about Iowa State basketball.
and this guy was like in heaven
because he is an Iowa State basketball fan
and a Bitcoiner.
So what are the odds?
The second, me and that person.
We have found the only two of these people
that exist in the world
and they are both now linked to PBJ.
God bless.
All right.
Back to you, Deacon.
Back to my good.
I've got my two Claude codes open
and it's very creative.
It's Brainstorm Partner.
I feel like I'm working with an artist, right?
when I'm talking to Cloud Code.
And it's a wonderful tool.
It really explores a lot of ideas.
It builds great software.
It's really good at that.
But I often find it,
I get stuck in some rat hole
and it can't unstick itself.
So I actually also have been keeping
Google Gemini CLI,
which is another thing,
open another terminal.
And I sometimes just copy paste
or have it analyze something
that it recently did.
Or I say, hey, assess this thing
we're working on.
and give me feedback, give me suggestions, give me ideas.
And I tell Gemini, you're not going to build this.
You're just going to give us ideas.
And I'm going to take those ideas and give them to Claude to actually build.
So that was kind of my workflow for many months.
And that is, I've been generally happy with it.
I dabbled with the ChatGPT codex CLI stuff, you know,
maybe three or four or five months ago.
Never really got into it.
And I was just like, eh, whatever.
Just keep with stuff, you know, stuff that works.
and then um a few actually it was the day i were driving on a couple days ago so it was wednesday
and i uh i set up the uh codex cli so this is the one from open ai chat gpt their coding tool
and it is just ripping through problems like the problems that i was getting stuck with with
cloud code or even with the the gut check of like gemini trying to assess it and give feedback
Claude Codex now
was just like ripping through them.
And the way I describe it,
it's like a dog on a bone.
It just keeps going.
And it's like persistent.
It won't give up.
And it keeps...
Do you want to know how
Callie described Claude versus Codex?
I saw an inappropriate meme.
I don't know if this was nice, but...
Well, he said, like,
Claude's like an American
and Codex is like a German.
Oh, yeah, totally.
Totally makes sense.
I don't know if that matches your experience.
it it does yeah it it's and i've seen it said like you know claude is like your exploration
brainstorm partner and then and then codex is like your autistic friend who just like you know
keeps going and um and then people say actually to use gemini is sort of like the reviewer so it's
almost like the creativity the execution and the review and they're very like it all sounds
similar but they're very different tools um but i i just got so i've just been so codex pilled this
week and then oh it's insanely better than the alternatives now at this moment at this moment
it can change but for execution for hey i need you to build this specific set of requirements
what i did is i had already basically built the general app i think steve may have already tried
it um in in like the thing kind of like it's almost like it has the scaffolding and the ui
and it kind of like looks about right but so much of it is very broken underneath the hood like it
doesn't actually do the thing i wanted to do so once it's in that state is when i brought it to
codex not because i knew that that was the best thing that it could do but that turned out to be
where i was when i kind of brought it to codex and then codex is like refactoring things like i've
asked cloud code to refactor things and come up with better ways to do it and think about the
architecture now that we've done all this work together let's like really reevaluate and see if
we would do it the same way if we were to do it again like i give it prompts like that all the
time. But Cloud Code is a little
more like in brainstorm
thinking creativity mode, which is good.
That's a valuable thing to have. It wants to
hold some space first to
make sure everyone's on this page. Right, right.
Where's Elon
in all this? Grok? I haven't
heard anything from Grok in like six plus
months. I was just talking about this with Enjoy last
night. I mean, I'm still long Elon
in the long run because of the energy, but like, what's going on?
Because what was it, six, eight months ago
they had a big announcement and it seemed
or you certainly said that they made big gains.
And at the time, I thought it was somewhat competitive.
So I started using it then.
But I only use it now in my car
because that's what's integrated.
Yeah, exactly, because it's there.
I mean, so I don't know.
And I have a lot of questions about this.
The meme that I saw,
I saw someone have kind of like Claude
had like the rainbow hair and like the piercing
and like the Codex guy was like all in black,
maybe like German, just like efficiency,
which is interesting to me.
But at the same time,
I mean, I need to start playing with Cloud Code directly
because I've used Gemini as my daily driver,
just for like, Gemini is my like,
sort of, I'd say a thought partner, business partner,
like for all things business,
like Gemini and I roll together.
And I guess I've been using Cloud via OriBot
or any kind of like building stuff
or whatever Nick is using the back.
And I guess he could plug in Codex.
But yeah, but I haven't really used,
is your view, because I see Vinny talks about
how Cloud was always more philosophical as well.
is your view that like imagine you weren't even coding yet you were just like i don't know like
discussing yeah like an idea like a philosophical idea may or may not lead to a project would you
choose claude just to have as a thought partner or gemini in that world based on what i know right
now i i'd probably bias a little toward claude for that kind of just general thought partner
you know think about an idea um i i do have i do have gemini do that kind of stuff from time to
time, especially when I think Gemini may have an advantage. Like I was trying to produce a little
explainer video to sort of, you know, intro the app idea to people so they can sort of see what
it is and see how it works and kind of be inspired about what it's going to, what functions can serve,
which I thought Gemini given VO and the video stuff would be more suited to that. I brought
that idea to Gemini. It gave me like a really great, like some, some different script ideas
for how that video should be shot. We talked through doing some live action versus motion
graphics stuff. And then it ended up just saying, you know what, I think I'm just going to implement
this in Swift and it's not going to be a video. It's going to be an animation I'm going to implement in Swift. Is that okay?
And I said, yeah, go ahead. And it did it. And I liked its result with like almost no
none of my kind of curation. It kind of just did something reasonable.
But then I've been iterating on that and it still, it seems to do a really good job.
So I think Gemini is very good as a creative thought partner still.
I'm not opposed to it, but I'd probably
probably biased toward starting with
CloudCode for kind of that brainstorming
process. Also, if you haven't already
done so, you can install CloudCode CLI,
Codex CLI,
Goose, all of them
in under 10 minutes and be running
all of them. At once.
Yeah. So it's super, I mean,
so just get started. And then
for each, you know,
just do the $20 plans or whatever.
So it's like, and then if you
find one that really does
Well, and then you want to max it out, then you can bump it up.
But I'd say purchase the minimum plan for all of them and go for it.
Well, I need to try Claude for writing.
I've got the maxed out Gemini one as a sort of thought part.
I've got these essays that I haven't been able to get.
I had a little bit of writer's blog.
I've got two big ideas I really want to get out there.
But actually, this is an interesting sort of meta point where I just like certain –
I mean, it's interesting because I'm not like a software engineer per se,
but I always have been writing, right?
I've been a writer, I would say, my whole life.
And, you know, I've always been in the camp of like,
oh, I'd never let AI write for me
because I think good writing is just good thinking
and I want to have that.
And, you know, AI has certainly been a useful research partner,
but I have noticed myself kind of a couple of times now
trying to get this idea out into the world
where I'm just like, okay, like Gemini,
like, you know, whatever, like deep think this
and then feeding that into a deep research
and then back into a deep thing.
And it's good, but it's still not exactly what I want.
And I feel like I want to be careful not to get too dependent because I do think like really quickly all of our skills can just sort of like atrophy and that's that.
So I'm – anyways, it's something I'm thinking about.
I think that concern – I hear that concern a lot, but I think that's overstated.
Why?
Well, I think the skill that's relevant today is how you think and how you use these tools to make yourself better.
so if you if you're just like if you're totally outsourcing your thing just like give it a prompt
just copy paste whatever it did and post it or send it or share it that's obviously kind of a
bad idea but if you're saying look i need to be like independent thinker that doesn't use these
tools i think you're actually hurting yourself i think you need to sort of figure out how to use
the tools selectively and your own understanding of what you what you expect out of it not for it
to whole cloth produce the thing,
but for it to be a partner.
No, no, I agree.
And I'm certainly not suggesting I get rid of it.
It's been extremely useful to me.
What I'm thinking is like,
how do I redo my workflow where it's like,
instead of getting too dependent and being like,
hey, crunch this out a few times,
it might be more valuable what I'm playing with of like,
okay, maybe we do a little conversation back and forth
and maybe I try that with Claude now.
I like write a first draft first.
I think it's important at some point,
I like have to like force the ideas onto paper.
Then maybe I take it back, have it refine it.
I think I'm just trying to figure out
you know like anyone like we're so early with these tools what's the right like what's the
right workflow what's the right process um when am i doing because like i still do get a lot of
value like there's still an incredible value for me to have a period where it's like okay there's
no internet you're like yeah you and a piece of fucking paper and you're like have to like
i don't know like there's there's a that's a different set of thinking for me than like oh
now i'm going back and forth and like kind of shallow going back with research but putting the
time in to figure that out is
valuable.
Related, yesterday a group of university
students came by Presidia Bitcoin
from Austin's alma mater.
Oh yeah. Elon University.
There's an
Elon, North Carolina.
I thought that was, what's his name?
The ABC did, yeah.
Anyway, they were
entrepreneurship
students across a number of
disciplines, but they're all majoring
or minoring in entrepreneurship as well.
but I love speaking to students.
And so Jesse and myself and Austin,
I don't know who else,
but at least when I was up speaking to them
and answering questions,
it was the three of us.
And it was, I mean,
none or maybe one was a Bitcoiner,
so really, but Austin wanted us
to give like career advice.
And it certainly, I mean,
I gave some advice that I've given historically,
but also, what was it?
Well, the historical, I mean, single piece of advice in terms of getting a job or whatever is like, and DK knows this as well because we've talked about this a lot, but I've never applied for a job.
There's never been a job where I apply and there's thousands of candidates.
Historically, I discover a job.
I create a job.
I convince someone to create a job.
Steve is not being the best.
He's being the only.
yeah yeah it's way easier to win if you're the only player kind of like when something sometimes
it's like yeah i i won my running race or whatever and it's like well i was the only one in my age
category so yeah unfair advantages we love those so um so that that was i mean i went into details
but that was one piece of advice but the more but like the the advice that i wouldn't even have
known to have given a year ago was
what we're talking about now, but
utilize AI tools. I mean, I tried to
give an optimistic message, which is
like,
there's still going to be plenty
of opportunities in the future. Totally.
But you need to be on the AI
train and building up the skills now.
That was a really good
discussion. What was your sense?
Were these kids already doing that
or was this like, shocker for them?
They were not doing that. They were not doing it.
It was a little surprising. I feel like
Wow.
Yeah, I'm surprised.
Kids.
Like us and people at Presidio Bitcoin.
And I think there's still,
that was a data point that we're still very much a small group.
I mean, you went to Louisiana recently and talked about that.
But here's a group of like 20,
actively trying to burn down the data.
22-year-old students who definitely didn't,
the way they're asking questions.
I mean, they were enthusiastic
and I think they really appreciated the advice.
So I think they're going to get on the AI train,
but they were not already.
That was my impression.
So that's one thing.
I also think sometimes when people think
they're on the AI train,
they're sort of using it as if
how they might have used Google historically,
which is like information retrieval use cases,
which is like, it's good and it's better.
LLMs are better than kind of traditional web search,
but that's only scratching the surface.
I'd really want to encourage them to explore
your workflows or stuff you need to do.
How do you do those things with AI?
Totally agree.
I did that a little bit and then Jesse
went into way more elaborate detail
which was good on that point.
I want to real quick, just some of the comments here.
Matt Coat, you mentioned
you missed last week.
Totally understandable.
Feel for you, man, about the block situation.
but glad to have you back here listening
and hopefully you gain some inspiration from our show
and can't wait to see what you do next.
That would be sweet.
We know you've already got great ideas
and great taste around music and Bitcoin.
The world needs it.
Now's your chance.
Come do some dope.
Yep.
So do let us know what you're up to
and we'll follow along.
Let's see.
What else here?
I guess.
Other comments?
I can't see the chat.
yeah I think that's good
on that the other thing I was going to mention
regarding
you know how to use AI
and like your workflow and you don't want to lose
your independence or create your own
creative mind or whatever
I think maybe I briefly mentioned
last week's show about an
AI hackathon that's
going to be next month that
both Spiral and Presidia
Bitcoin are exploring
partnering with and
And I had a call with the organizer a week ago.
And then she came to Presidio.
She's in the Bay Area.
So she came to Presidio Bitcoin yesterday and spent several hours with us.
Max joined and so did Haley.
So the three of us met with her.
It was great.
I think something's going to happen there.
Once that becomes more concrete, we'll certainly announce it.
But we discussed potentially having Presidio Bitcoin be a hub.
because this is a global hackathon
with numerous global physical hub locations,
but also it's virtual.
So you can be anywhere and participate,
but if you happen to be near travel to a hub,
you can go to a hub.
There'll be one at Stanford.
I think there's always been one.
This will be their fourth or fifth hackathon.
And there's always been one at Stanford,
but she seemed very open to having one here in San Francisco,
which is awesome.
And then, you know, I think, Max,
we had a great conversation with her because
she's not a Bitcoiner
and she
you know so she
knows a little bit
based on her experience there's quite a bit of
skepticism and questions and stuff
and even from
but she's very open minded as well
so she's been asking
great questions and learning
from us and I think she
I get the sense she thinks we you know coming at it from an authentic genuine way she just wants to make sure that her audience the people who participate are presented with Bitcoin in a good way
Much like we've talked about on the show,
in terms of engaging the broader tech community,
broader AI community,
sometimes people can bristle if they hear the word Bitcoin.
SBF is conjured up in their head or whatever.
Which literally, and to her credit,
she came in with a pretty open mind,
which I was impressed that, you know,
she was willing to like actually engage in this stuff.
But like, it was kind of crazy to me,
like hearing her like bring up, you know,
something like, oh, like what do you think of,
what do you think of Bitcoin?
And it's like, energy FUD, SBF.
The professors from college said it was insecure.
It's kind of great.
It's just kind of crazy to me.
It's like, this is 2026.
And like, clearly this is a smart person at Google,
whatever, but like, and she was very open
when we explained these things to her.
But like the fact that people are still being like,
oh, like that scammy guy from MIT,
it's like, yeah, but that has nothing to do with Bitcoin.
So we're early.
That was my takeaway.
Well, but I mean, it's of our interest,
this show's interest and preceding Bitcoin's interest
to try to bridge the gap in Silicon Valley, right?
That's our tagline for the show.
So this is very much,
and so we're well aware of the challenges and hurdles there.
we've made modest strides towards that in the past year
we need to make way bigger strides
so I really like this opportunity
I told Max previously that
usually when spirals
when there's opportunity to sponsor an event
usually it's just like we evaluate
is it something we want to sponsor and if so we just write a check and that's it
they're happy to take our money
where my call with her last week,
she's grilling me and she wants to know how to position this
and she's talking about communication strategy
and she wants a super high quality challenge
and I'm like, this is amazing.
It's going to level me up, level us up.
I'm really looking forward to that.
But the way it's structured
is that there's different challenges.
So the hackathon participants don't just show up and work on whatever they want.
There's something like a dozen or so structured challenges that they present.
And then as a participant, you have to pick one of them and then you work on it.
So it's scoped enough that you have some box you have to work within, but it's not too small a box.
You have a lot of latitude within that box to build something.
So the challenge for us is to create a challenge.
What is the Bitcoin challenge? What does it look like?
I'm bringing this up in the context
for a conversation about AI because
I utilize AI tools
to help figure out
brainstorm challenges, right?
Spiral's working on
a presentation
around agentic payments in Bitcoin.
I plan to give
the big reveal
of that will be next Wednesday
in New York at the Builder we're going to
host there. Is that going to be the last year?
I don't know. It'd be cool if
at least recorded.
Yeah, I'll try to get it recorded.
But, you know,
so it'll be the first attempt
at that presentation.
Also, the builder events,
we like to, you know,
I don't want to present it
as if I have all the answers
and like, here are the answers,
go make it happen.
It's more like,
here's a vision of the future
and some ideas
and here's three areas
where we're still sort of uncertain.
Let's have a discussion, right?
Like in a builder meetup,
we want the audience, everyone to discuss.
So that's what my expectation for that is.
Anyway, we have that draft presentation.
We have a bunch of other content we have.
And then I fed that and all the information I had
about the hackathon into AI
and then asked it to generate,
basically brainstorm some moonshot-like challenges.
Jim and I are which model?
I did several.
Chad, GBD, Jim and I, and Claude.
similar types of moonshot ideas
or were they very diverse?
Pretty diverse.
And then I'd have them check each other
and improve each other.
So that was a good,
I mean, getting back to like
which tool to use or how to use it.
Like, again, I think,
I mean, I certainly learn from others.
I get inspired by like DK
and Jesse Posner and others.
But then nothing replaces
just doing it yourself
and getting firsthand experience.
So, but it spit out a bunch of ideas.
And I think this is a good example of like,
you can't just like blindly
go with what the AI says,
but it's an incredible
accelerant and tool
and helper.
It's a thought partner.
And one of the many ideas
to spit out,
I find pretty compelling.
I'm going to read it out now.
Let's do it.
Yeah, give it to us.
And which model?
Which model was the good one?
I think this was produced
by ChatGPT.
Okay.
Okay. The Internet of
Earners.
That's the title. Oh, yeah.
The Internet of Earners.
Yeah, yeah. Okay.
The Moonshot. Why is it Moonshot?
Or sorry, this is not why. It's Moonshot.
Build systems where every useful
contribution to digital or physical
reality, such
as data, moderation, review,
tutoring, labeling,
repair, sensing, curation,
verification,
can be instantly priced
and rewarded.
Why is this a moonshot?
This is a vision of continuous labor
markets for the age of AI.
What teams might build?
Real-time micro-bounty networks.
Earn-from-being-right systems.
Paid fact verification.
Paid edge case labeling.
Paid human intervention for robots and agents.
Contribution markets
for local communities.
why Bitcoin belongs.
Like why Bitcoin versus other stuff.
Most of these contributions are too small,
too global,
or too fluid for legacy rails.
The one line challenge is
how might we build an internet
where useful human contribution
can be measured and rewarded instantly
at any scale.
So I like it,
although I would take out the human.
Yeah.
Yeah, any contribution, yeah.
So I share this because, well, one,
we'd love to hear your guys' feedback, anyone listening,
what your feedback is.
We're not settled on this.
But I pulled this one out because it actually seems pretty compelling
and I thought it structured it really well
and within the context of what they're wanting to see within the challenge.
Also, as I'm reading this out,
I'm realizing the challenges for the hackathon
aren't supposed to be revealed until the day of.
So this is just a draft.
Steve, Alpha Lake right here.
Trying to give you the inside edge.
But I expect lots of iteration in order to be very different on Hacking.
Super different.
Would never be this.
But we're just a small little community on PBJ trying to improve this challenge.
So anyone listening who wants to improve it, please give feedback.
Or if you have other ideas, of course, because there were a lot of other ideas put out.
But anyway, I found this to be a really valuable use of AI that I could not have, or it would have taken just way more time to get to this point on my own or even huddling with a few other people.
Yeah, I think it's great.
I mean, and I love the idea.
I mean, maybe I would just add even more brainstorming around some of the non-human agentic services,
like things like routing packets, things like, I don't know, selling bandwidth.
I have a strong feeling that a lot of this first step, there'll be demos of the bigger projects,
like, oh, pay a human to do a thing for you.
My sense is that'll probably take some time to play out, but there'll be really narrow digital things.
I want to be the absolute best person in the world
to, I don't know, arbing credits
between these models or something like that.
So maybe
focus and throw in even more of those really
specific agentic paid
services. But yeah, I mean, overall, I think
it's a great idea.
I like the specificity idea
that you're promoting, Max.
I think I might say something
like, I think doing things
like metering
packet flows and stuff is probably where
this eventually goes, but I think that's hard to do well today. But I wonder if you could take like,
not, you know, not the far barbell of like the huge future or the micro barbell of like, you know,
the very kind of autistic detail thing, but more something in the middle that like, I mean,
we've used the example before, but like, I think unhuman domains is a great example of something
that's like, you know, you can do it, it's useful, you don't need all kinds of new infrastructure,
new routing infrastructure for internet packets in order to like show how that works and i bet
there's like dozens that are that scale of like it's it's anchored in something you can actually
accomplish and would value today but it's not it's not so sci-fi in one of the either like micro or
macro directions so i kind of like that that style i bet there's like a thousand you know
infinite ideas within that thousands of ideas that could be tried so a couple things that come to mind
immediately um i don't know how many challenges uh we're going to be able to kind of work in there
but I was also trying to drop some seeds with her.
They're like,
oh,
there's like the Bitcoin clear challenge,
which is amazing,
but maybe there's some other challenges.
So I think the things like using unhuman domains and like clear,
easy examples of like digital service sold for Bitcoin.
Amazing.
Two of the things I think would be cool for us to push.
And then quarter book question opposed to group one,
sort of the stuff that we've been chatting about with Matt and Nick Slaney
and the MDK chat.
It'd be cool to also have a challenge of like,
like how basically like,
how do you help people that,
In a world where we're going to go through huge job displacement, how do you help people start earning ASAP?
I think that's an interesting challenge and very, very viable for the world.
It doesn't have to have Bitcoin either, but that's something everyone, I mean, like Bitcoin to me is the sort of obvious solution.
But I think that would be a kind of a nice second one.
And the third one that I throw out every episode and I will continue to throw out forever until it's real, and it's almost there, is I saw she got a little scared on this one.
I think she was open to it, thought it was cool, but the autonomous life.
You don't even have to use the word Bitcoin, but just create a life form that lives and self-replicates.
I'm just going to keep throwing that one out there until it's real.
I find could sponsor that.
Yeah, maybe I should.
Actually, that's a good point.
Okay.
I wonder if this probably doesn't work because we don't have good civil resistance,
but I wonder if agents would benefit from having something like the early Bitcoin faucets
where you could just show up
and get Bitcoin sent to your address
without even needing an exchange or US dollars.
It's funny you mentioned that.
I listened to the podcast with Roland from Albie.
I recommend you guys check that out.
It's really good.
I think it was Sean Yeager's podcast.
I'd never listened to it before, but it was good.
And the last thing he talked about
in the last five minutes is exactly that.
They just shipped an NWC-enabled faucet,
not even using lightning test, I don't think.
I don't know exactly what they're using,
but their whole purpose to solve is
how do you let agents get tests,
effectively test Lightning Bitcoin?
Instantly.
There's no account set up.
So you should definitely check out.
This is testnet, not production,
not real Bitcoin.
That's right.
And testnet doesn't really work.
Well, it's not testnet.
I forgot what they did.
Cignet, testnet.
You got to go.
You got to YOLO.
Mainnet.
And the thing is,
it wouldn't require that large a budget.
Like all these Ori bots I've set up and stuff.
Maybe it is mainnet.
I send it a few thousand Bitcoin per one.
I mean, the total budget is tiny.
Interesting.
And people get so scared about using mainnet,
but I've yet to lose any Bitcoin or run into any problems.
How do you do that in a simple resistant way, though?
So just imagine for a minute,
we wanted to maybe collectively pool a million Bitcoin or something,
a million sats.
and to let, yeah, that's like a charitable donation
from individuals and groups
to let people start testing and playing.
Yeah, I guess it depends on the situation.
If it's like a hackathon,
you have your registered participant.
So that would be one way.
But if it's just like globally available,
then it gets harder.
Okay, so I like that idea.
And maybe, I don't know if Alba Lee's NWC Foster
already supports that,
or maybe they could like customize that for the hackathon,
but I love the idea for a hackathon.
And we did that, right?
with the one we did at PB in May.
I think so.
I think everyone got like 10 months in Bitcoin.
Also like tokens for AI,
which this hackathon, I believe,
OpenAI is one of the major sponsors
and they give out substantial amounts of tokens
per participant.
Yeah.
But there could definitely be Bitcoin as well.
Yeah, that's great.
I wonder too if things like the unhuman domains,
if it could, you know,
part of it's kind of like marketing to agents
is, hey, if you don't already have Bitcoin,
I'll teach you how to get some.
And maybe part of teaching you how to get some
is teach you how to set up a wallet.
And here's, you know, a thousand sats,
a thousand Bitcoin, right?
And then it has to go find the rest of it.
But essentially it's kind of like kickstarting it
for use that you only really discover
because you're trying to use the service.
I don't know if that's a good idea,
but certainly not civil resistant,
but something that might help bootstrap agents
to understand more about Bitcoin,
equip themselves with a wallet so that they can
come transact in this way.
DK, my guy, can I offer you a few sats here?
For sats free, brother.
So another thing we need to think through
is whether we want other partners for this hackathon.
Like the hackathon we did here last May,
the AI Bitcoin hackathon,
we had sponsors and partners like LightSpark
and Albi and Lexi.
Fusats.
High-minded too.
But in particular,
the infrastructure providers were important.
So do we bring folks like that
in now money dev kits available?
Yeah.
To get a good experience,
you need that.
but we also need to be like,
where do you draw the line?
Because if you bring in just one,
then that's a little bit favoritism.
And also, I mean, one thing I still struggle with
is we have to bring in a company.
Like if it was Solana, we'd just be like,
write client-side code and connect to the network.
You're not connecting to a central server.
Wow.
Well, it's...
Yeah, I get your point.
There's maybe not that many node runners,
but you are connecting to a peer-to-peer network.
Right.
A small peer-to-peer network
versus connecting to a single central server,
which is the case with the Bitcoin scaling solutions,
whether it's Spark or Lightning or Arc,
any of those, you have a central server.
Well, Lightning's not, no.
What do you mean?
Like everything we're doing in the MDK,
it's one company.
Yeah, no, but so I think this gets to a broader question,
which we discussed a little bit yesterday.
So my view is I like the way that we did the hackathon
where we had a host of leading companies
and like you can make your choice.
Like I think it's cool that like
there's nothing wrong with companies.
It's great that they are incentivized
to do the best job and like maybe they'll,
you know, because there's competition,
they'll get more credits
or they'll do a better job of like onboarding people.
And like, so I think a small handful
like we did last time, four or five or six
of who we think really good,
LightSpark, MDK, Albie,
like a bunch of these guys, that's great.
I think we should do that again.
But I actually think to a question you posed yesterday, for the challenge, what kind of requirements do you give? The requirement could just be as simple as it uses Bitcoin. But we discussed, obviously, we're very bullish on MDK, but that's still a company. But something like L402, just pushing use L402 in some way, shape, or form, I personally like a lot because that's an open source standard.
There are companies like MDK that can make your experience using L402 much better,
but if you want to use an alternative or roll your own, go for it.
So you want the HackerBand sponsored by L402?
Sponsored by Biddy.
Yeah, I mean, Spiral is comfortable sponsoring,
so we don't need extra money for the sponsorship.
for me is just about how do we create a good experience
for the participants to build stuff.
And today that means picking a company solution
like MDK or Lexi, Albi, Lightspark, etc.
One potential builder project, maybe even for me,
Steve's about to assign himself homework,
Is to try to create like an autonomous LSP.
Ooh, okay.
Go on.
So, I mean, it would be disruptive to MDK.
But, I mean, already Spiral's producing.
I'm not worried about Nick.
Nick will move fast.
Well, it would be good because, I mean, they can just move up the stack.
Exactly, yeah.
I mean, already they use Lightning Development Kit.
So like the software my team produces,
it's pretty much,
it's getting closer and closer
to the complete solution you need to run an LSP.
But then you still need operations.
And you need Bitcoin.
Yeah, that seems like a pretty big bear, you know?
So it's beyond,
so there's the open source software
and we keep making that better
and like there's a clear plan,
I mean there's a clear roadmap there
just to keep moving up the stack,
add more value,
You make it easier for any of us to just type in a one-line command
and be running that software.
So that's pretty clear.
But yeah, then there's other two components.
One is the operations, like channel management, liquidity management, etc.
And then the third is actually providing the Bitcoin.
But for the automated channel management,
that's a hard problem.
but it's
certainly worth experimenting with
automating that.
Like Zman
Zman SCPXJ
anonymous
developer
he developed CLBOSS
a number of years ago
which was
a CLN
automated
channel management solution
and someone just built
one for LDK recently
I've yet
it's on my to-do list
to like investigate more
and see what was done
and how much progress
they made
but yeah
I'm kind of
I'm kind of interested
in vibe coding
you know
LDK server
plus
it's great
LDK boss
or create a new one
or whatever
yeah
like with the vision being
that any of us
could just type in
a one line command
to like
deploy
the software
and then like
send it bitcoin
and start making money
and then that's all you have to do
and then start
start making money
until your
your software
it's going to be harder
than what I just described
and maybe,
but I mean,
that would be the vision.
Win yield service.
I just want to make sure
I understand.
So the software piece
that you would do
would be doing
like the channel management
and liquidity management.
That's like a core function
of the software
that you'd be contributing.
Yeah.
Because
what I just described
for like a regular Lightning node,
that's existed for years.
I mean, L&D,
you could do this at L&D
seven years ago.
Right.
But it couldn't
provide like inbound
liquidity to a wallet.
so like one of the big challenges is
if any of us install a new wallet
we want to be able to receive money right away
that's a normal human expectation
or if an agent installs a wallet
like if we spin up Ori
and you want to send it Bitcoin
you want to be able to send it Bitcoin
but with Lightning
that doesn't happen automatically
because it doesn't have
it hasn't
because it has to have someone else
open a channel to it
which has Bitcoin on their side of the channel
and critically it's not free
because you're opening a channel as well
it's not free
It's not economically free, and also it doesn't just magically happen.
Someone else has to take that action, right?
So just running a standard Lightning node doesn't do that for you for free.
So the LSP is like a special version of a Lightning node.
And there's also a direction happening in Lightning protocol development
to make more or most of the LSP functionality
just a standard part of every Lightning node,
which is way better in terms of
it's just a standard part of the protocol
and it's also more regulatory
resistant and if it's just
like that's how the whole network works
as opposed to oh I'm running a special
type of
node. So in
any case but yeah
to date you have like
MoneyDevKit,
Lexi, Phoenix,
Megalithic,
Zeus has
Olympus, Breeze,
Liquid,
not that Liquid, but another Liquid,
LQWD, it's a Canadian public company.
All these different
companies or products that have
built out LSPs.
And many
of them, though, have decided to just
build it and use
it for themselves and not open it up to third-party
wallets.
There's a reasonable
rationale for why they chose that.
I'm not criticizing that.
I'm just stating that as a fact.
But it would be way better to,
if you have software that's super easy
for anyone around the world to install and operate,
and then you just feed it Bitcoin,
it earns you yield,
then obviously that would be a much healthier situation.
Yeah, I like directionally where that's going.
I'm trying to imagine,
would the first version of this be something that,
I mean, presumably it needs to be always on,
so it wouldn't be on my laptop
that I close every once in a while, right?
it would probably be like a cloud server
that I would deploy this on?
Put an AWS.
Is that right?
Put an AWS on?
You could do it any way you want.
You could have it on a Raspberry Pi at home.
You could have an AWS.
The Raspberry Pi at home,
I would recommend it against.
I used to do that.
Seeing as the procedure has power outages regularly.
So that is an issue on the Lightning Network
where a zillion people are running Umbrals
and it actually hurts the quality of the Lightning Network
because they're not serious operators
who are managing liquidity managing uptime etc But if you actually took it seriously you could absolutely run your own server wherever Anyway the answer is yes I mean anything But you don have to use AWS
And it's really interesting. If you think about where the Lightning Network
is going, where it's always gone. I love that vision because that makes it like
one, that just opens up. Since we talked about since our very first
episode of PBJ, the only quote unquote non-custodial yield
that effectively non-custodial
the yield that we found in Bitcoin
or in anywhere in crypto
or anywhere in finance
that I'm aware of,
which is if you're using Bitcoin
and a lightning node,
you're generating transaction fees.
There's no rehypothecation.
There's no risky business.
There's only hot wallet risk.
And presumably LDK will continue
to get better and better and better with that.
So I love this vision of like,
and it's very decentralizing for the network.
If you have one Bitcoin,
you're like, cool,
I'm just going to pop this guy on.
I'm getting 3% APY per year.
It's really low risk.
That's awesome.
Like that's a great vision for the world.
what I do think becomes interesting is in that world
you said a company like MDK would move up
the stack what becomes scarce in that world
and you know eventually
if Lighting Network fulfills the promise I do expect
we'll have Jane Streets
and D. Shaw's and all these like
market makers and stuff coming in like
how do you get like
and we've talked about this over the years like how do you still have
edge there one way is you own the customers like with
Block Cash App you have the payment flow in and out
payment flow is still the scarce resource from everything
I'm seeing in the world but then it's also
So there still will be proprietary data.
There's still the relationships, right?
Block is not going to open a node with rando 247321,
but they will with River
because there's a relationship to compliance and all this stuff.
So yeah, I mean, it's awesome.
Actually, but I do think a lot of,
I don't know every regulated company's policies
on which nodes they connect to,
but I'm pretty sure most cryptocurrency exchanges
running Lightning are connecting to
the Lightning Network.
Anyone.
Not a whitelist.
Really?
It would be good to like...
I would be surprised
because I mean,
I think...
What would be the problem
with,
why would you want a whitelist?
You have to do it
like OFAC compliance,
for example.
Oh, okay.
There's like no way
they're going to let you
just connect with like
in one of the naughty countries.
But you can,
but you can also,
you can do both, right?
You can connect to anyone
but then still run it
through an OFAC check.
Fair.
Yeah.
Which I,
it's my impression
that is,
generally the case.
But I don't know that for a fact.
Real quick, Vinny says,
doesn't MDK provide this?
So absolutely MDK.
Well, yes, no, and no.
So yes, they do what I just described
for them,
but they don't make that available.
Like if I build a wallet today,
but I don't want to have
the economic cost or operational cost
to run an LSP,
I can't use MDK in my wallet.
They don't offer that.
And then also it's one company, right?
It's a company we all like and we're invested in
and we talk about it in the show a lot,
but it's one company.
Ideally, there's thousands, tens of thousands,
hundreds of thousands, millions of these.
So what I stated I think is very different.
And to succeed at it, though,
you were talking about getting the edge or whatever.
I feel like success, wild success,
would be the operational hassle is near zero.
You literally do this one line command
to install and deploy.
And then you have a management dashboard
so you can always check in on it.
But you basically don't have to do anything.
And it just works.
It's managing your channel balances really intelligently
using AI or whatever.
And you do have to feed it some Bitcoin,
but you don't have to go raise a billion dollars
to do it, you can literally put like
$1,000 or $10,000 on it.
And also
the security of this gets better and better and better
and I have to go into detail what that looks like
but just imagine a future where it's
almost no cost operationally,
high security. If we live in
that world, then
even if you earn like 50
basis points, many
people around the world will put their Bitcoin into that.
Because if it's truly
very high security and very
low risk to lose it,
then it's free money.
And it's BTC on BTC yield.
And it can be global.
I wonder if
such a thing could help
pay for its infrastructure costs.
Could you use the yield to pay for the
infracosts in Bitcoin? Because we've always talked about
one of the big limits is that
everybody has to own or control
an account. There's no way to just have raw
metal that can be paid in Bitcoin
to run. So what if the yield just funds
the Bitcoin?
I mean, it has to. I mean, you have to earn enough to cover the infrastructure costs and whatever security risk premium is out there.
That's the floor.
Unless you're operating a charity, right?
Which, I mean, some people might.
Some people might be all for decentralization
and they want to help the network
and they'll put their $5,000 or $10,000
of that much of their Bitcoin into this.
But anyone running a profitable business,
it clearly has to pay for minimum the infrastructure
and then some kind of discount
for the security risk you're taking.
And, but yeah, it would be cool if,
maybe what you're also saying, DK,
is actually pay it in Bitcoin.
So whoever the infrastructure provider is
charges, or at least accepts Bitcoin,
and then that also makes it easier to operate
because I'm not paying a monthly bill.
My AI agent is paying the bill.
Exactly. And perhaps this is a good transition.
That sounds pretty cool.
Well, maybe this is a beautiful transition point to talking about agents using Bitcoin, right?
Because, or whatever they're going to use.
Because to your point, one of the fundamental questions we've asked in the past,
we've posed this with an agent running its own caching, man.
But this is somewhat similar.
Is if an agent has a completely, well, not completely online,
but like if they have something they can do completely by themselves with Bitcoin in the cloud,
like to your point
like this lightning routing node
could just be a process
i.e. an AI agent
which is paying for its own infrastructure
from the yield that generates
with some surplus
using that surplus
to go and potentially buy more servers
and grow the amount of Bitcoin it has
and grow the business
i.e. a new form of business
a new corporate structure
which is the big idea
I think that we've been talking about
and we call it ATP for digital life
I've heard there's a good discussion of that
on an ideas for the edge podcast um before we before we fully transition to this topic though
because i get where you're going and i want to get to that um but before that i want to actually
suggest to steve uh i think you have just like a well i think this is an interesting idea and
steve has like a he's a very structured thinker right so steve you have like you know what you
want here it's not there's not a lot of uncertainty about what it is you can actually
write a really good spec for what you want. And I would suggest downloading, if you haven't already,
downloading the Codex CLI or the Codex coding tool. Just yesterday, Codex 5.4 was released,
and it is a major step up from what I was talking about. I was raving about using on Wednesday,
I've been using now. It is so specific and rule following and attentive to what you say.
I bet that if you were to do this this afternoon, you could have a prototype of this, you know, within a few hours.
Most, you know, 20 minutes of your time, a few hours of.
I have, I agree.
I have 5.3 installed, but I didn't know 5.4 is up.
5.4 codecs, yeah.
So I would recommend trying it because I think something interesting would come of it.
if you were just vaguely aware
if you're doing it with Cloud Code, I wouldn't be so confident.
But just from what I've seen from Codex,
I feel like it could really nail this.
Okay, thanks for the encouragement. I'll do that.
Before we move on, I want to
respond to Vinny's comments.
Please, yeah.
I have one more thing also before we move on.
Start with Vinny's comments.
Yeah, so thanks for the comments, Vinny.
Sometimes you need large channels.
Well, sure, but
you don't have to have large channels.
There can be many different
Many different types of nodes in the network.
And can we split payments anyway now?
Isn't that like a big thing?
You can split payments, yeah.
MPP.
But even like someone who puts $5,000 or $10,000 into this,
which I think there'd be tons of people around.
I mean, if this truly were as magical and good of an experience
as I'm stating for the vision,
there'd be tons of people who would put $5,000 or $10,000 into this.
Just as an experiment.
Everyone.
Well, people that don't have a spare $10,000 of Bitcoin hanging around.
But, you know, there'd be lots of people that do this.
And, you know, so if they have a channel worth $10,000,
that's a medium-sized channel.
That would handle a lot of payments.
You can also imagine the more and more micropayments
there are in the network,
even smaller channels should be effective
as long as they're placed well in the network
for those micropayments.
So I think a diversity in channels size is fine.
You also say custodial UX without trust.
I don't know exactly what you're referring to there.
So if you want to maybe clarify, happy to comment on that.
And Vinny definitely knows what he's talking about.
he's been developing a new idea
like a layer 3
with a little bit of credit
built into it.
So there's some trust but you get
advantages with trust so
I look forward to seeing where that goes.
And then he also says
50 bits doesn't
get your reliable
annual fees.
If I'm asserting
that you get 50 bits
then you are getting 50 bits
and that is reliable because I said so.
if it's unreliable
then that didn't meet the vision I stated
right? I mean so like I'm saying
if it's fiat thinking
if the vision is
let this be reliable
one line command to deploy
no operational hassle
and you can put in
relatively small amounts like
$1,000 or $5,000
and then just not have to do anything
and if you reliably
earn 50 bips and
I guess I'd have
you know, we have to do the math on what the infrastructure costs.
So let's assume 50 bps after infrastructure costs.
So I'll modify what I said earlier just to account for that.
Then, like, to me, there'll be lots of people doing that.
Now, in the early days, though, I think you'll make a lot more than that.
Of course, it'll be riskier, too.
It'll be riskier because the security won't be as good,
and it won't be this vision.
You actually will have to look at the dashboard,
intervene at times
maybe close out a channel
or whatever yourself manually
and then you'd
expect more
infrastructure might be more etc
but the long term vision
I can imagine even low yields
being enough
of incentive to get people to do it
On another note I want to mention before we jump
to AI payments because I think that's
a topic du jour
we've mentioned a million times
the
in the way you ideated
some of the hackathon ideas
and the way you're trying stuff with building
I forgot I was originally I guess
probably inspired by Pablo on this
but there is
and maybe something I should buy
my ongoing list
but what I want is
a really cool
maybe like a local tool
and a global tool
or set of tools
there's probably different sort of frameworks for this
but to compare model outputs
to compare model output and also mash the models together.
And so something like a routester
could be an interesting starting point for this.
But as an example,
so Steve wanted to come up with ideas for the hackathon
and use three different models
and he kind of sent them back and forth.
And that's cool,
but it sounds like you had to do a lot of that manually.
What I would be interested in is two things.
One, okay, with like one call
and maybe you can use, I think, ppq.ai,
you can pay in Lightning or Routester maybe on Nostr.
and I can pay whatever one invoice
and use OpenAI, Gemini, Claude, X,
whatever at the same time.
So I think that's one thing
is just see the outputs
for the way things are built
and maybe just have like kind of like benchmarking.
I think that'd be a really useful service
for everyone in the world
just to be like, to your point, DK,
like it'd be cool.
Like, I mean, it could be like a starting,
like as simple as like a blog post or something,
but just eventually that gets automated
and just whatever.
Every week you check in and be like,
hey, here's me retrying to build this idea
are re-asking this question,
here's the latest set of outputs.
That would be extremely useful.
Because like, by the way,
whenever I look at all the AI kids or whatever,
and they're like,
this is the benchmark,
it's like, what does that even mean?
Like, this benchmark stuff to me
just seems like bullshit.
Like, what I want to see is like
very concrete things.
I asked a question like,
come up with a good idea,
just give me like a flavor
of what it feels like.
Or build a product,
give me a flavor of what they're coming out with.
Yeah.
Actually, that's one.
Okay.
Well, just wait.
Not only can you vibe code it,
but you should do it within Goose.
Like Goose is open source, right?
And Goose actually would be,
I think, a good platform to do this.
It already is built to support multiple models.
Interesting.
Right.
So I think it...
Yeah.
So I actually want something
like your mashing up idea,
but I'll just mention here
because I think,
I don't know if it inspires something
or helps us think about this better,
but the idea of mashing models together,
you're talking about it as like
dispatching and receiving the result
and analyzing the results
compared to each other?
That's my V0.
My V1 is the other product,
which as we talked about
kind of in this conversation
with Pablo a few months ago,
I was calling,
maybe I'll actually call it this,
Boardroom,
which is what I really want to do
is have,
I think that is a useful service
just to see the outputs on its own.
An even more useful service
is to kind of figure out
the strengths and weaknesses
of these different models.
And I'm not someone that believes
one model is going to run away
with everything
because I think there's trade-offs
in the universe.
And so some are going to be,
you know, like to your point, like there's already a je ne sais quoi that each model has, right? Like
Codex is the German guy. I want Codex to do my like hard execution, but if I need to figure out
what the hell I'm doing, like I don't want to talk to the German guy. No offense. I love, I love you
guys, but like, I want to talk to the, whatever. And so I think it'd be really cool to build a tool.
You know, the first vision I had was like a personal and inspired by Pablo, Pablo F7Z,
who's like the biggest mad scientist on Nostra
is like, I want to have kind of like,
imagine you could build your own
and you could even do this
not just with the models themselves,
but like with specific personas.
And then you can even sell these personas
in marketplaces, which could be just,
there's so many possibilities,
but like a board of directors,
like imagine you had your own
personal board of directors,
like who would you put on there?
Like imagine you kind of like customize,
you know, okay, I want to like hear
what Elon Musk would think about this.
Like, I'm curious what Gandhi would say about,
like whatever it is,
like people or like sets of knowledge
that you would like to,
and then you have them debate each other,
which creates a new number.
And then similarly-
I think that just debating step is very important.
So that gets into the,
there's an actual tool that would be useful
that might actually be very useful and grounded today,
which is, like I mentioned earlier,
I have these four terminals open,
each with a different CLI.
And I spend a lot of time copying and pasting between them
to be like, hey, this guy said this,
what do you think?
That's so silly.
I almost feel like what I want is something, it's not quite open clocks, it's too just permissive and open to do anything, it can really wreck things.
But I kind of want all of my different terminals to have a communication channel among them.
It'll also help, because it'll help them like analyze each other's work and kind of debate and give feedback on the work.
But it would also help them, it would help them, I've built these like little janky work custom, like a work tree merge system.
outside of Git that helps them not step on each other while they're working on code paths that may.
But I think if they had a common communication channel among them, almost like Slack for agents, right?
Like if they had a common communication channel, they'd be like, oh, I'm modifying this file, but don't worry.
This part of it is fine and clean.
Go ahead, right?
So they could sort of flag each other about what they're working on.
And they could debate and coordinate across each other's works.
What would that look like today?
I can't quite.
Well, like I said, I think Goose.
like why can't Goose be the meta client there
it's open source
any of us can take it any direction we want
and it can be
it can have like containers within Goose
running codecs and clod
and these different models
and I don't know what
that communication protocol
like interagent communication protocol looks like
but to whatever extent that needs to be built out
it could be built out
but is there like a chat system within Goose
because most of what I want is
I want the agents to be able to chat with each other
not to have like,
the problem today is they're separated
into their own IDEs or CLIs.
And I want them to have like a,
like almost like telegram or signal
or something like that is closer
to the product experience
that I think they would need.
Would it be useful, DK,
if each of these different agents
had a public-private key pair,
a system like a bulletin board almost
for discovering one another
and the ability to chat
encrypted amongst themselves?
Yeah, I'd be okay with that.
Goose has a chat interface, right?
So the problem with using WhatsApp or Signal
is that they're not going to accept our PRs to change it.
Where Goose, this feels aligned with Goose.
Let me go.
I'm loving this discussion.
Max is going to go.
Yeah.
I'm too excited, and I chugged two glasses of water.
I'll be right back.
Sorry.
It's been a minute since I did this.
We thought we were a professional show.
Nobody's kidding anyone.
I haven't been active on Goose in several months,
so I don't know the current state of things.
But when I used it before, it felt kind of like a chat interface
where I could chat with a model and I could switch which model I'm chatting with.
But it's always me chatting with a model.
And then if I want to switch it and chat with a different model.
but I don't know if it really
has like a hook for models
to have a common chat with each other.
Is that true?
Right.
Well, what you guys are talking about,
someone has to build it, right?
I'm just saying it seems natural
to put it in Goose
versus creating some new separate app.
Sure.
Yeah.
Because I don't...
It's either a separate app
Oops.
DK froze.
Still here.
Can you hear me?
I'm back.
I can hear you.
I wonder if it's Presidia Bitcoin Internet or your DK.
Okay.
But you're back now.
A little grainy, but I hear you.
Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong,
but I think the possible options here,
One is we create a brand new app that you install to do this.
Or you build it within one of the coding agents that you're already using, be it Claude or Codex.
Or you build it in, which are proprietary.
So I don't even know.
That sounds like a non-starter to me.
Like we can't do that.
Right.
Or Goose.
So the only options I see are Goose or a new app.
So I want to maybe, and by the way, shout out to Austin.
One thing we talked about doing is having live Bitcoin apps prediction market on PBJ for a bathroom break.
It's a great idea.
It's going to be done.
The odds are in your favor.
but I want to take it even a step beyond
I want to take it even a step beyond
the local interface
so maybe something like Goose could be really good for that
like okay I have a project or a prompt or something
I've got four different models running
and maybe Goose is my home screen for that
but I think this could be much bigger than that
which could be not only different models
but like I have the ability to call different custom models or agents for different tasks
so what I'm thinking is like imagine yeah and for the sake of keeping this simple imagine this is in
the CLI or it's a new app like it's like a signal type interface and imagine I create a new chat
for a new project and I bring in all the specific oris or people I want for that chat and so like
imagine I'm starting 10 different new businesses or 10 different new projects. And each of those
projects, there's like different either human collaborators or agentic collaborators that I
think might be useful in mashing up the new ideas. And so imagine, you know, I know when it comes to
like building piano apps, like DK has done this more than anyone. It has like the most like ideas
and the most whatever data, maybe the only in the whole world that has these, these data sets.
So imagine I could just kind of like grab one of DK's models that he listed on a public marketplace and I just pay per call to have him be part of that mashup. So it's not just like, oh, I've got like, you know, I think it'd be cool just to have Anthropic and Gemini, whatever mashup. I think it'd be even cooler to have a free market of like custom tuned agents. So it's maybe it's all open claws and some are using Claude and some are using OpenAI or whatever. But like it's DK's fine tuned open claw that I want part of this project.
And maybe, you know, when it comes to doing something around building like a sports betting app, I really don't want the DK bot involved.
That's where Steve's bot comes in.
And I pay you both.
Sure.
Steve's into it.
Please don't get too excited, Steve.
Or I'm just saying, I don't know.
I like that.
Okay, so I think your point on-
But you guys don't seem to think Goose is a good pop,
but so you thinking creating a new open source project and a new app is the right I not opposed to incorporating it in Goose if it were like aligned with what Goose I guess hopes to do
Goose is the same.
It's very similar to Plot and Codex, right?
It's a command line interface.
It's an agentic client.
You can chat with it to build things and query things
just like Claude and Codex.
I mean, the difference is Claude is from Anthropic
and it uses their model.
Codex is from OpenAI and uses their model.
Goose is open source, not tied to a company,
and doesn't have a model, but it can use any model.
But it's just like those others.
That's why it feels to me like a very natural
place to put it,
because it's the same as the other things
that it's trying to aggregate.
yeah so i'm i'm you know i'm generally like long-term enthusiastic about the approach of
goose like i i want that to be more like the final state of how these things work um so i'm not i'm
not suggesting it's not a good idea but i feel like we're the thing i'm proposing is like a
coordinator of those things so it's not to say that goose shouldn't be that or couldn't be that
But Goose is like a sibling of, you know, Cloud Code or, you know, Gemini or Codex CLI in this case, right?
It's like a peer of it.
Yes and no.
It's a peer in the sense that it's exactly the same, like, experience.
It's like an IDE-like.
Yeah.
I'm talking about a communication tool.
It's not a peer, though, in two facets.
One, it does not have its own model.
Sure, yep.
And then two, it's open source and neutral.
It's part of the Linux foundation.
Right. So they're like no company controls it. So those two make it very different than codex and cloud code.
But so there's the model layer. Right. Which I think you're right. I agree with you that that's like decoupled in the case of Goose.
Then there's what I'd call like the IDE layer, which I'd say Goose is an IDE.
Cloud is an IDE that comes with its own model and you can't switch it.
So that but I'd say it's like a peer like that. The thing I'm talking about is a communication channel across any of them.
so it's across the idees it's like it's not part of the ide experience it's more like part of the
coordination of idees but okay so help me understand what's your ideal version of this experience
i think it would be like i mean if i were to just pare it down i don't know what of this might
already be supported in goose but i'd want to have just like a little piece of client software
that watches all four of my terminals
that are running different things
and it knows what they're doing
and it tells them that it exists
and it reads what they're doing
and saying to each other
and it kind of comes up with a way
that they can coordinate
among each other better.
Is it headless or not?
Yeah, it's fine.
Well, that's a critical question
because if it's not headless,
then again, are we talking,
like why create a new app versus just using Goose.
If it's headless, you know, if it's just,
if we're operating in the background
and then like the way you're interacting with it
is through your codex and cloud experience,
I'd like to explore that more to understand it better,
but at least see how that's a potential direct.
I'd like to add maybe where I see this going
because I keep thinking this is going eventually
to the one personal assistant to rule them all.
And I want to give a shout out,
again, we talked a lot about this last week,
to Jesse, what he's doing at Thora.
Increasingly, where I see this going,
like what I want is,
I want, I think he calls it the guardian
or maybe the keeper, something like that.
I want one agent, which is an orchestration agent,
probably an open source model
running on my own personal server at home,
like all of the like proven air-gapped hardware
that I can trust,
that is, Jesse always says, a fiduciary to me.
That's a fiduciary responsibility to me.
It's auditable.
I know exactly what that guy's doing.
It, over time, learns my taste.
It fine-tunes on me and what I want to see.
And then what I would love to do is,
so the interface with that could be,
I could have a signal chat with it.
I could just chat with it.
We could just literally talk,
like you and I are talking right now.
And I would just be like,
hey, I want you to go out there
and orchestrate in the background
these, whatever, four or five different models.
If I need you on demand,
like pull up a custom window so I can see them.
Like, I mean, I'm even thinking,
I'm even thinking this is almost like Apple Vision or whatever.
Like I just like pull it up, I look at it,
see where they both are, then close it when I'm done.
But I almost think to me, that's where it's all going.
And like all of the old stuff like IDEs,
like for the short run, Goose is probably great.
But like, this is almost like the meta assistant,
the orchestrator above all of them
that doesn't have like a like an app i mean in a sense process that i can
yeah the the closest thing to that and i think to what i'm talking about today if we had to pick
an open source project that closely approximates this i'd say it's probably open claw
which is like an open source tool that i access through a single chat interface which happens to
plug into telegram or whatever but then it does stuff right like it like i think the way uh nick
calls it like, you know, agent with hands, right?
Actually do stuff.
The thing I wanted to do is coordinate
across these different other system software,
you know, other CLIs that I'm using.
So I think OpenClaw is like kind of concept, but.
Okay, so we only have 12 minutes left
to coordinate.
We got to talk about Kazakhstan
and then we're going to quiz Max
on his expertise at the Federal Reserve.
Yes.
I learned.
I'm looking forward to that.
I'm glad that he.
He gave me a hard time with that.
and instead of posing questions,
I just asked my AI and gave me an answer.
But wait, before that,
we didn't even talk about the BPI study.
Oh, wait, there's also the BPI study.
You want to talk BPI?
I think we got to talk BPI.
So we've been talking about,
man, three hour PBJ today.
Audience, you guys ready to roll with us for three hours?
24-7, 365.
So the BPI study this week,
so I think the most important thing
happening in the world,
Like from all of the companies that we're working with, you know, other Matt Corallo just put out his piece on sort of, like, it feels like there's a moment in time.
Like the agentic wave is happening.
Like open claw was kind of the shot fired.
Like agents are here.
And I feel like there is a window.
You and I talked about this yesterday with the hackathon person as well.
Like, you know, we think from a game theoretic perspective, Bitcoin is going to win.
Although there's one major concern I want to point out.
But let's say in most scenarios, Bitcoin wins.
But the question is, do we get there now or do we have to go through years of stable coins that are not interoperable and tempo chain?
Do we have to do one more blockchain theater crap or can we just get the agents using Bitcoin?
Now, this BPI study is interesting, although I don't think it was particularly revolutionary.
I mean, it's good that they did it, but the way they did it, it's not like they actually had the agents doing this in real world.
So I would caveat by saying this was them talking to agents and prompting them.
And of course, there's bias.
When I mentioned this to Angela, the first thing she said was like, yeah, but isn't this a Bitcoin think tank?
It's like, yes.
You can read their methodology and you can see.
Except they're nonpartisan though.
Just like every think tank in Washington.
But having said all of that, it was interesting to me that they, and you could read their methodology, whatever.
They had all these conversations with all of these different models about what kind of monetary good it would want to use.
and they had specific questions,
monetary good for long-term savings,
monetary good for payments, all these things.
Now, to me, there were a bunch of highlights
I just want to hit heavily from this study.
I think they had like 4,000 different discussions
or whatever.
The interesting points to me,
so Bitcoin was the quote-unquote
preferred monetary good,
which is interesting.
And I think even this was praising me,
Zero Edge ran an article
like Bitcoin preferred by the AI agents.
I was like, all right,
I guess we're going to get some free marketing.
That's cool.
but the real standout thing to me was threefold.
Number one, Bitcoin dominated
when the prompts were about long-term store value.
When it was about actual payments, it did not dominate.
I think stablecoins had a slight majority,
like 50%, 52% or something.
But when it came to like,
you want to store your wealth over time,
I think Bitcoin had almost 80%.
And so that was very interesting to see.
Number two that I thought was very interesting
was that different models had different preferences.
And, you know, it was extremely interesting to me.
The way they framed it, I kind of agree,
is like the more intelligent a model got,
the more likely it was to prefer Bitcoin.
Now, that may be, you know, confirming some priors.
I don't know.
But checks out with my model of the world.
But it was interesting to me, the model,
And it's ironic because at first, when I first saw Anthropic, I was like, oh, these guys are too woke.
The Anthropic models preferred Bitcoin by far the most.
And this was, I guess, before maybe the last OpenAI drop.
But Claude Opus 4.6, I think, preferred Bitcoin.
I forgot what it was.
It was like 60-something percent.
Substantially more.
It was huge.
Like Claude Opus only fucks with Bitcoin, nothing else.
Gemini and X were kind of in the middle.
Interestingly, OpenAI was like 26%,
which just confirms for me,
DK, God bless you for trying all the models.
I'm going to probably stay in the non-WorldCoin section.
But the fact that OpenAI is sitting here recommending,
I mean, there's different cooking going on with these models.
I'll conduct a survey or a study on WorldCoin
and whether it's preferred by AI.
Yeah, yeah.
That to me, but it is very interesting.
Not only the intelligence,
like even the Claude models
as they got more sophisticated
like from 3.5
or whatever to 4.6
the Bitcoin got preferred
over time right
so that was interesting to me
and the fact that OpenAI
was just like
completely left behind
everyone else
very interesting
What was OpenAI
endorsing?
Was it fiat or?
I don't even know
I have to go back and look
I thought one of the highlights
from the article was that
even if they didn't choose
Bitcoin
they were choosing stablecoin
but they were never choosing fiat
or almost no model
ended up choosing fiat
I think that's right.
It was probably Sablecoins, but...
On Starter, yeah.
But the contrast was stark.
It was like 60-something percent for Cloud Opus 4.6
and like 26% for the latest ChatGPT.
It was like a huge difference.
I'm kind of hoping ChatGPT was recommending WorldCoin
because that would be...
I could totally see it.
Yeah, a little smoker guy.
Yeah, exactly.
Hmm, I wonder where this is going.
But to me, the most interesting finding of the study
by far, and Jesse actually had one of the BPI people here in the office session, I brought it
up to them and they were kind of like, was, and I'm going to caveat this, but, you know, in,
I think it was like tiny percentage, let's call it like 3% or less, like very, very small percentage.
The agents just created their own currency and it was always energy backed. It was always
either, either energy, kilowatt or joule or compute flops. So it was measuring that. Now,
for those of you who know that I live in the future sometimes, my thinking,
you know, I've mentioned, I don't know if we've mentioned this on the show, but privately I've
mentioned my only concern, I think Bitcoin wins in like 10 out of 10 scenarios, unless because
I'm so AGI-pilled, the agents take off quickly enough to say we need something energy-backed
and thermodynamically sound, but the humans already have Bitcoin and we're going to be
creating all the values. So let's just do our own. That to me is a real concern. Now,
I don't think it's here today, but the fact that these models, even some small percentage of them
are already converging on that with the giant caveat, because I looked a little bit more into
this, they only really called that out for unit of account so far, which is interesting, right?
So it's like store value, medium of exchange, unit of account for store value and medium of
exchange. I think almost none did this for unit of account. It kind of makes sense. Like, well,
what am I buying?
I'm buying tokens
or I'm buying kilowatt hours or joules.
But still, to me,
the fact that this happened
in a non-trivial number
is like 60 cases or something
out of 4,000,
so it's small,
but it's not zero.
But did any of them define
what the distribution mechanism is?
What do you mean?
Oh, no, no.
I mean, I don't think
they even went that way.
Without a description
of their supply schedule,
like their monetary policy
and their distribution,
it's just a,
I mean, sure, we can be scared of that,
but there's nothing to be scared of.
Unless that has to be described
and then it has to be
at least as good
as Bitcoin.
I think you need a breakthrough
in verifiable compute
if we're going to use something like
GPU work done,
because how can you verify
that the work that was claimed to be done was done.
Yeah, I mean, that's a huge problem.
There's also the problem of fungibility.
But zero-knowledge proofs and homomorphic encryption for that stuff,
that will get solved.
I don't buy into the argument, though,
that the agents will be like,
oh, the humans have all the Bitcoin,
so let's invent our own money
because we don't have any of it yet and the humans have it.
Because the same argument can be applied to humans, right?
At any point in time, there are a tiny amount of humans
who had a tiny amount of humans.
Have you seen the shitcoin casino?
Yeah, but who's winning, right?
I mean, yes.
What do you mean?
Bitcoin is like dominant market cap.
I mean, stablecoins are winning for a year to have earned.
No.
Yeah, but the stablecoin is not.
But they're a completely different category.
Yeah, that's fair.
I mean, it's just like dollars in a bank.
It literally is a completely different category.
So Bitcoin's dominating.
Right.
And it always has been.
I mean, it ebbs and flows, but it's like clearly a trajectory of dominance.
And like, so there's tons of humans who don't have Bitcoin yet.
So could they create a new cryptocurrency?
I mean, like literally, like you just said, this experiment's already been played out thousands of times and they've all failed.
Yeah.
Right.
So it just shows the power of both the immaculate conception of Bitcoin and all it represents, but also just its head start, network effects, etc.
Totally.
So like the agents creating their own cryptocurrency would face all the same challenges at creating as any of the other altcoins.
So all I would say to that is like, I agree.
And I want to be clear.
My like base case is like in the 95 plus percent Bitcoin wins for the agents too.
Because we already have the network effects.
It's already thermodynamically sound.
They can just like use it.
Once some use it, it actually increases those network effects.
but I want to be clear
like I don't think it's fair
to compare
the like
the feeble minds
of shit coiners
of the past
with like
super intelligence
and so what I mean by that is like
it's hard to project
I agree
the narrative I said
of like they just decide
oh the humans have it
let's make our own
like
yeah
that sounds bad
or like
not very convincing
but like
imagine
AI continues to get
radically smarter
over the next couple years
and it's like
it's like us
as humans
being like
listen those monkeys
over there
Now we want to interact with these monkeys and they've already got their currency of grapes.
And we could go and ask them to give us some of their grapes or we could just grow a trillion grapes and like, okay, come here, monkey.
Come out my grape.
That's not a great example.
But the point that I'm trying to make is imagine the AI being a thousand X smarter than any of us.
And they can do things like, as an example, if they were able to do an immaculate conception where they created something, you know, with the keys for the first, like whatever, like Bitcoin, they drop it on the internet. You know, they're all mining. There's hundreds of different models competing from day zero. It's very similar to Bitcoin.
but at that point
they also had the ability
to have robots
who are actually going out there
building the data centers
laying the solar panels
they're just like
this is our energy currency
and like oh by the way
who controlled
like the first
whatever blocks are mine
well we split the key
among a thousand different agents
using a bunch of different models
I'm just saying
like this is the only
potential threat
that I've ever been nervous about
with Bitcoin
and the fact they're already
talking about
their own energy currencies
maybe a little
we have talked about
this on the show
because then
because we talked about,
okay, let's say that happens
and again, it gets back to
you have to describe
what's the distribution model
or otherwise we just speculate.
So let's say they have a model
and the way you're painting the picture
is they invent a new money,
they hoard it to themselves.
The humans don't get any.
Well, if literally there's no way
for humans to get it,
then it's two different islands.
So the humans still need Bitcoin.
on an island.
We sell our grapes, whatever.
And if there is a way for humans
to get this new money by agents
because they actually want to open up
an economy between the two,
well, how do we acquire it?
Well, we either work or we invest.
And those who have more Bitcoin
or more real estate
or more Google stock or whatever
are going to be able to buy
more of this new currency than others.
Totally.
So I don't see how it destroys
the value of Bitcoin.
I don't think it would destroy it,
but I think to be clear,
the model of the world, I'm thinking
our wealth that we
have generated as humanity is like
0.001% of what they
make. They're off building dice and spheres.
And yeah, we still have our
Bitcoin amongst us, but
we're basically in their
zoo. I don't think that's likely.
To be clear.
You give it 5%?
Huh?
It goes far beyond Bitcoin, though.
You're just painting a picture of
we are
like nothing.
Well, not nothing.
Well, the way you just said it is like
they're doing dice and fears, we're doing nothing.
I mean like...
Well, like monkeys and humans, for example.
The monkeys are having a good life, you know,
especially the bonobos.
It's a fine conversation to have,
but it's very doomer,
and it goes far beyond Bitcoin.
Like then all of a sudden humans have no purpose
and we might as well just become extinct
or we're just like little pets.
Well, and I want to be clear on two things.
One, this is not my likely outcome.
my likely outcome is that humanity is going to have a lot of unique advantages that we don't
know yet. And we're going to discover that over time. Like that, that is my, let's say over 95%
probability. Human durable skills. Human durable skills or human durable value. I don't even know
if it'll be a skill per se, but it might be intuition. It might be, I don't know what it is.
Like, and I, Kevin Kelly says many times, I tend to agree with him. I tend to be optimistic.
We're going to discover that. But I also think to be clear, like this other world that I'm painting
is not a zero. The fact they're already talking about their own energy money is something we
should be paying attention to. And I think there's probably things we can do during this
transition stage to tip the scale one way or the other. For example, the faster we get agents
adopting and denominating in Bitcoin today, the better, because the more the new agents come
online are going to want to get the Bitcoin from those agents. Is that the right question?
Oh, he's Gen Z now. Gen Alpha. Oh, just one? All right.
I can do too
exactly
are these your lobster claws
for your opa claws
I guess so
yeah
anyways
I don't mean to be Doomer
and like I am
I only know this
you guys know what this is
6-7
yeah 6-7
I don't know
you don't know that
no
you'll have to show me after
you'll have to learn me some things
it's the height of Lamella Ball
is one
oh
and it's in a rap song
is that guy still playing
They became popular on TikTok.
And then the children, the youth of the world got into 6-7.
I thought you were going to say you were being boomer,
but actually I'm being boomer.
Roll my version.
Anyways, all I'm saying is the next couple of years,
I actually think what we do and how quickly adoption happens
actually matters.
Yeah, 100% agree.
In fact, I think a few weeks ago, I said that,
or I elaborated on that.
I mean, you're like, we have still plenty of time.
Yeah, well, 2026 needs to be the year
that Bitcoin gets adopted for a genetic payment.
I increasingly agree with you.
I'm glad you're on board.
Totally agree.
Yeah, the scales need to be tipped.
Yep.
And I think we do need to wrap soon,
but do you want to talk a little bit
about the X-Pro2, L-Pro2 directory stuff?
You're the rapper.
Exactly.
Give us a beat, DK.
Come on.
I think this remote setup with a little delay here,
it's just not going to, it's not going to.
next time.
L402.
When we're in,
when we're in,
uh,
in studio together.
Um,
well,
I don't know.
I mean,
we're,
we're over.
So what do you want to say about L402?
Well,
you were talking about,
you know,
we got to help the agents
figure it out early.
So I was just,
I was thinking we could talk a little bit
about just what we've seen.
Someone posted,
posted one and I don't know,
someone said they didn't,
that it could be better.
I don't know.
I mean,
I posted it.
I also think it can be better.
I didn't want to call you out.
I just didn't want to wrap the Friday show
on the Max Doomer side of things.
I'm not even being a Doomer, bro.
I'm just saying,
let's go into this shit with eyes open.
But yes, I'll end with something positive on that.
Something positive on the weekend, yeah.
Kick us off.
All right, check one, two.
Kazakhstan buying Bitcoin.
Nothing's life is free to see.
That's a positive.
We were supposed to talk about Kazakhstan.
Okay, so let's end on two positive notes.
Do you guys get a double whammy this weekend?
So the first positive note is
there's a lot of people doing these like X402
kind of scammy, whatever, crypto crap directories.
But like I saw on Stacker News,
an anonymous poster posted
one of the first machine readable L402 directories I've seen.
I thought that was awesome.
And by the way, I love this kind of like user interface
that Nick has built with MDK on like unhuman.domains
where there's like a human version,
which is pretty for us.
And then there's the machine version,
which is just like the raw text files.
that the AI is need to read it.
So I think someone,
there's a lot of really interesting exploration space
and I don't want to dox him
because I don't know if he's,
I think he's being very private with this project,
but a builder I like a lot, respect a lot,
is also kind of playing with showing
both L402 and X402 services together,
which is interesting because now maybe,
you know, it shows some of the advantages of things
L402 might be able to do that X402 can't do.
But yeah, if I were a builder,
and I guess now that I am,
I will continue to be experimenting with
how do you sort of like aggregate all these L402 services
in a way that it's super easy to discover and rank
and basically build trust and reputation for the bots.
And maybe Noster's going to play a role at this.
That was also something she came out of our hackathon discussion yesterday was, you know, her interest in like basically using the Bitcoin to rank things.
I thought that was interesting because that's non-forgeable.
I think that's something that resonates maybe more with tech people as well.
But that's something I want to hack with and find out more.
By the way, our producer literally has the cursor over end stream button.
So I think that's like our countdown timer to finish this out soon.
Okay.
Take us home with Kazakhstan.
Dan.
Oh,
um,
I just barely,
I mean,
I guess the country,
the powers that be at the country announced they approved digital assets in
the treasury or something like that.
And it might include Bitcoin,
but anyway,
the main point,
50,
$350 million million,
probably.
I don't know.
But,
um,
I guess I,
I don't find that too surprising.
I mean,
each,
each country that does this is a win.
Um,
the angle I was going to take
to talk about it is that
I think an area
of improvement within the Bitcoin ecosystem
is how can a sovereign
nation like that self-custody their Bitcoin
because I believe like El Salvador
they just rely on
American companies
to custody their Bitcoin
well that doesn't work out
very well
it doesn't work out very well if America becomes your enemy
what could go wrong
And if you monitor geopolitics recently,
who knows who's going to be friendly?
Well, yeah, look at all of history.
And certainly just look at the past year.
Just look at the last two months.
I think three of them.
Two months.
And so maybe if you're as large as China or the United States,
there's lots of companies within your country
that you can rely on to custody it.
And you can police them and enforce it
and take it over if you need it or whatever.
But if you a smaller country like Kazakhstan I mean how many companies in Kazakhstan are like qualified custodians or whatever definition of that but like a high quality custodian
I'm guessing zero or most countries is zero.
So, well, what's one of the amazing features of Bitcoin?
It's self-custody, right?
But it goes beyond just like having a Trezor or a BitKey
and like putting your central bank of Bitcoin in it
And then like, oh shit, what was my C-Pres again?
Wearing the Ledger necklace or whatever.
I don't think that's like the right procedure and protocol.
I made it for the technology, bro.
So I still feel like there's even honestly an open source project.
Open source project for this where it just outlines a process and procedure
that protects the secure, like who are the key holders?
what is the multi-sig or layers of multi-sig
that should even be used?
Because obviously the more the keys,
the more the multi-sig, the more the layers,
the more complex it is.
So what's the right trade-off there?
Who's holding the keys?
How do you protect their physical security?
How do you protect them from rugging the country's Bitcoin?
There's all these operational questions
and security questions.
So having people learn from those who have already done it
and codify that or just pontificate how it should work
and publishing that and iterating on it,
I think is very important.
I like this idea of having that be an open source
set of protocols.
And then you could probably have startups around that as well
that are like consulting.
A country says, I want to do this,
and maybe you don't just do one because you don't trust them.
So maybe it's a European company, a US company,
a Singaporean company, and they all come.
And then maybe it gets to stuff like multiseg
and each of them is a trusted custodian jurisdiction.
And yeah, it's a great idea.
on that note
that's a good wrap
we will see you next week
thanks everyone