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All right, and we're live. Welcome to another episode of PBJ, this time on a Wednesday.

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On a Wednesday?

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Isn't it? It's a Wednesday. March 18th. What's that all about?

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TK doesn't even know what day it is. That's a good sign.

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It means you're living life right, my friend.

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We're just being polite because we know that a lot of our audience probably are March Madness fanatics.

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Of course. Of course they are.

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so we did not want to disrupt your Friday

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college basketball

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viewing

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yeah we know you tune in for the Presidio Basketball Jam every week

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so

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here we are on PBJ

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my tweet saying that

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I always find it amusing

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when people

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who have never engaged

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on a tweet of mine

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finally engage on a tweet

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what does it take to get someone to

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like a tweet of mine

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this one

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a couple people come out of the woodwork and

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be a first like

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for one of my

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contacts. You know who those sports fans are then?

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Yeah. Probably people who

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don't really care about Bitcoin and

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or at least the

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in the weeds Bitcoin.

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But they do like college basketball.

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So I like that. But we also actually have

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other reasons. There's an event

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that some of us are going to

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Friday.

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Sort of our

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sibling

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organization in the Bay Area,

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Localhost, which is funded by

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Mark and Wences, just like Presidio

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Bitcoin. They're having their one year

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anniversary, so we're going to go hang out

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with them. And then

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one of us, I think, might have

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a trip or vacation or something.

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I love how whenever Steve wants

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to play it cool, he just stares

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directly at me.

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You're the only one in front of me.

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I'm not going to say who it might be in this

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room. Of the

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two people at this table,

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It's not me.

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No, he's right.

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I'm going to one of my very best friend's weddings.

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So I'm pretty excited for that.

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And you're just going to be out for one week, right?

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No, just a couple days.

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Just like in and out.

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You'll be back in studio Friday.

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But Iowa State literally plays at 11.50 a.m.

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I knew it.

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Friday.

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Yeah.

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Exactly when we normally do, PPJ.

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So this worked out beautifully.

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It worked out.

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Thank you.

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And I do have to say, you know,

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I have not talked much about basketball

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because this season has just been horrible for Memphis.

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Just absolutely horrible.

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The worst season in 60 years.

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However, I want to say Penny Hardaway is coming back.

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I saw that.

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I'm happy.

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But he's getting rid of the staff or something.

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Yeah, it's one of those deals where it's always like

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Throw everyone else under the bus.

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And this is like the third time that's happened.

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So it's always kind of shitty.

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Although, you know what's interesting is

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the basketball itself.

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I really like the recruiting stuff.

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And it's interesting, actually.

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I believe it was Ryan Gentry, who's also in our field.

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And one thing we bonded over is we both had, growing up,

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and maybe still, subscriptions to premium message boards

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for the rivals inside our recruiting info.

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And recruiting, shockingly, something we bonded over,

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it's very similar to VC.

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It's the exact same thing, but you're building a team.

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Is he a Longhorn?

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Yeah, of course.

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I mean, he's hooked up.

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all day. They won last night. They did?

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Yeah, they had a play-in game to get in the tournament.

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Yeah. But anyways, but all that to

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say, my hope here is

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to me, the most interesting part of the season is

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building the team. I think that's quite

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a fascinating time.

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I love Pinning. Pinning's been one of my favorite

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people, players, my whole life.

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I'm rooting for you. I hope you figure this out.

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So, much love coming from here.

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Awesome.

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I know I've been

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sitting patiently, quietly

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here, letting the sports

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taco but I was going to mention as

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a listener to the show I'm hearing a lot

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of ringing or something

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sounds like FG's in that

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I guess we'll have to close

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we'll suffer the heat thanks for

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telling us that

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it's the lawnmower

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apparently we didn't

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we need to get

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networked with the lawnmowers

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so that they don't do well

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we didn't tell them about the schedule change

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so

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they're getting ready

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for March Madness

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we're dealing with

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this actually

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this has a cost

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and a benefit

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we're gonna be

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scorching hot right now

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so you'll probably see us

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like sweating

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during the show

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but it'll help

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the allergies have been

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awful

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this week

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I'm suffering

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oxyman X is here

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sauna with an X

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is always a good thing

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so

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well

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I mean

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I guess it is a sauna

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we could

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should we pause

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and head on over

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and get it set up there

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anyway

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hopefully

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closing the windows

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will be less pollen, less sneezing.

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So that's the benefit.

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And no more lawn.

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It's been, I mean, for those of you

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who don't know the Bay Area,

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it's extremely unusually hot right now.

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Also, it's just like weird all around the world.

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We've got like severe weather on the East Coast.

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There's like a heat dome right now.

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I think blizzard in the Midwest.

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You know, scorching sun here in California.

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Like, yeah, we're definitely accelerating

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through some weird times.

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The singularity is here on many fronts.

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I thought Palm Springs is at 110,

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highest ever recorded in March.

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We're still in the 80s, maybe 90s, but regardless, now there's like, in my house, we constantly are going back and forth. I'm hot, and Roy, our beautiful, the CFO of Hivemind, our chief love officer, he gets really hot.

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So we're a team, open the windows. Anjali's team, once a bug comes in, cheat about that.

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So.

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Oh my God.

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I opened the windows too.

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And this bug,

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probably about 10,

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11 inches long came into my house.

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I don't know what it was.

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Are you serious?

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Yeah.

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Is there a bug?

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I didn't know there was a bug.

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It was huge.

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And it flew in.

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It was on the wall.

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It's kind of slow and dumb though.

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I got a mop and like easily.

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Usually I'm like,

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I look like the idiot trying to like kill something inside the house or like

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remove it.

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I don't know.

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But this thing was,

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Easy.

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Pray.

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Team or move.

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You can't be killing big, dumb things.

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You have to sweetly carry them outside.

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I'm actually, I usually carry things outside.

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Handle it with the graciousness.

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It was not possible.

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It was very fragile.

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So anyway.

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By the way, before we even get into stuff, we already have questions.

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So let's, we love audience engagement.

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Jump in, yeah.

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Leonardo, Leonardo asks, will Square really turn on Bitcoin payments for 4 million merchants?

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the answer is

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yes

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I think they need to be eligible

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somehow so it's like

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I believe it's like some very large subset

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of this

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I don't even think it's supposed to be

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announced yet but they

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it came out though I saw it on Stacker News

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yeah so I think

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they enabled it for like a portion

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of customers like a normal type of

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rollout and those

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customers got an email

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and one of them was Matt on my team

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who then posted it.

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That's the way this got out?

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That's my understanding.

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So apparently Spiral

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leaked this secret launch or something.

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I don't know. But anyway.

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That was with the alpha always.

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Was this always the plan was you wanted to first

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kind of trial it a little bit

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with manual turn on and then with enough

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acceptance and agreement

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that this was good that it would kind of

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get out to everybody?

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Sorry, what?

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Or like, why is it happening now?

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Why didn't it happen last fall kind of thing?

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Oh, yeah.

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I think, yeah, when did the thing first come out

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where you could, like a merchant could manually enable the Bitcoin?

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November.

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November, yeah.

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That was November.

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Okay.

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And so is it happening now as a broader rollout

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because that has proven to be a success?

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I mean, I think there's a number of steps

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and boxes that need to be checked.

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And just so I understand what we're talking about,

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It's just that the QR code that they show,

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that will always accept Bitcoin.

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And I, as the consumer,

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will always have the choice to choose,

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am I using the Bitcoin network,

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whether I'm using dollars or not?

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I believe there's,

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I mean, everything I'm saying

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is not firsthand knowledge.

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We're just speculating.

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No insider info.

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I'm the guy that works at the company.

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But the original rollout in November,

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there's like a cash app pay QR code

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and there's a separate like Bolt 11 Lightning QR code.

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And so the customer either needs to know to ask for that

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or the merchant needs to know to like redirect to this different UI.

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I don't think that's changed yet at least.

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I mean obviously there's hope that that becomes a cleaner user experience.

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Maybe they've addressed that already.

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I don't think so though.

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So it's more just that the change here is that the seller doesn't have to actively opt into enabling Bitcoin payments.

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Cool.

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It'll automatically be enabled.

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But I'll caveat this with, I mean, it's a nice win, but I don't think it's, it's just like one of many steps needed for success.

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Because they still have to opt in to be put on BTC map.

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so they don't automatically get opted into being shown on the map.

278
00:09:32,300 --> 00:09:35,560
They don't automatically acquire awareness.

279
00:09:36,260 --> 00:09:37,040
They meaning sellers.

280
00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:41,560
They don't automatically become aware that this exists and is possible.

281
00:09:42,180 --> 00:09:45,560
They don't automatically get sold on the idea of like,

282
00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,620
oh, this is good for my business because I can save fees

283
00:09:48,620 --> 00:09:51,660
and maybe increase my profit margins by double digit percent.

284
00:09:52,500 --> 00:09:57,200
They don't automatically develop a plan

285
00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,440
to create awareness for their customers

286
00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,220
to pay over Lightning.

287
00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:03,840
So all that still has to be done.

288
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:05,700
So like the Bitcoin merchant community

289
00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:06,720
that Swyol started

290
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,600
and a lot of the initiatives that Square's doing

291
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,980
and like what all of the Bitcoin community

292
00:10:10,980 --> 00:10:11,900
should be doing,

293
00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:13,160
we still need to do it.

294
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,020
We still need to have advocacy, evangelism,

295
00:10:16,380 --> 00:10:17,260
convince small merchants.

296
00:10:17,260 --> 00:10:18,700
It's still going to be a grind.

297
00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:21,600
So this is a nice, it's a nice win,

298
00:10:21,700 --> 00:10:23,340
but it's just one of many things that has to happen.

299
00:10:23,540 --> 00:10:24,860
Just so I understand this correctly though,

300
00:10:24,860 --> 00:10:28,340
So, and I don't know if it's live already or when it will be live,

301
00:10:28,420 --> 00:10:30,020
but let's say I go to any Square merchant.

302
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:31,500
They say, hey, check out here.

303
00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:32,980
I see the Cash App QR code.

304
00:10:33,140 --> 00:10:36,020
I can then pay from Cash App and use Bitcoin Lightning Rails.

305
00:10:36,180 --> 00:10:36,860
Well, that's what I was saying.

306
00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,120
It's two different flows.

307
00:10:39,340 --> 00:10:45,320
So the answer is no, and I don't know when those will merge into one.

308
00:10:45,580 --> 00:10:46,760
Maybe it's part of this launch.

309
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:47,600
Maybe it's in the future.

310
00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:48,080
Maybe never.

311
00:10:48,180 --> 00:10:48,480
I have no idea.

312
00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,340
If it's not part of this launch, the idea would be,

313
00:10:50,420 --> 00:10:53,060
I would still have to ask the merchant, hey, can you pull up a Lightning invoice?

314
00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:53,440
Yeah.

315
00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:54,040
Got it.

316
00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,100
Yeah, that's way less cool.

317
00:10:57,100 --> 00:10:59,580
But hopefully, sooner than later,

318
00:10:59,820 --> 00:11:00,880
it's that merge experience.

319
00:11:01,220 --> 00:11:06,500
And then the merchant doesn't need to be aware.

320
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,840
I assume the default would be

321
00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,680
that everything's converted to dollars

322
00:11:10,680 --> 00:11:13,120
because that's the most conservative play for the seller.

323
00:11:13,420 --> 00:11:17,560
Because otherwise, you're putting on new...

324
00:11:17,560 --> 00:11:20,560
I mean, you can't default to receiving Bitcoin

325
00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:22,820
if the seller doesn't even know about it

326
00:11:22,820 --> 00:11:23,860
or care about it or want that.

327
00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:31,960
their accountant doesn't know or whatever. But again, I think without awareness and advocacy

328
00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:40,480
by sellers, the ceiling for this is simply a very small group of passionate Bitcoiners

329
00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:46,060
going to a store to pay in Bitcoin just because they think it's cool and because they want to

330
00:11:46,060 --> 00:11:50,800
advocate for it. But that's a small tam. Yes, but I wouldn't underestimate. I mean,

331
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,980
obviously you see the vision where this is going, but I'll tell you, like, especially,

332
00:11:54,140 --> 00:11:59,900
let's assume we get that like unified QR code where I, as the end customer can make the decision

333
00:11:59,900 --> 00:12:06,300
unilaterally. The merchant doesn't even know. Like in that world, I mean, I'll tell you right now,

334
00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:11,040
I mean, I go to Square merchants all the time, like literally every single day. And I will be

335
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,660
using Bitcoin a hundred percent of the time from Cash App, Bitcoin Rails, I'll be using dollars.

336
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,620
I don't want to like sell Bitcoin. I'll be using dollars. They'll get dollars. And then ideally,

337
00:12:19,620 --> 00:12:24,780
I'm assuming they'll have some flow where it's like, yo, you just saved 3%. Want to know why?

338
00:12:24,900 --> 00:12:28,140
Learn more or something like that. But even without that, I wouldn't underestimate,

339
00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:33,060
even though we're a small group, we're like a rabid, passionate group. And I'm sure there'll

340
00:12:33,060 --> 00:12:38,260
be some like kickbacks as well, like on both sides eventually. But like, even with no kickbacks,

341
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,900
everyone here at the office, I mean, that's whatever, 20, 30 people in this community,

342
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,840
they're going to be going out there doing it every single day. I think it could grow pretty quickly.

343
00:12:45,840 --> 00:13:12,240
I think it removes a lot of friction, too. Like, I was just pitching a local merchant here about using Bitcoin. So, you know, I was purchasing something from him. He has a square terminal. I said, oh, I'd love to pay you in Bitcoin and then you can save 3% in fees. He's like, oh, yeah, I already do that Bitcoin thing. I was like, oh, great. And it turns out the Bitcoin thing he does is he takes his treasury and moves it, you know, some percentage into Bitcoin. But he doesn't have his terminal enabled.

344
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,760
So I think if it did become more of like a default,

345
00:13:15,860 --> 00:13:17,360
it'd be, hey, I just paid you in Bitcoin.

346
00:13:17,460 --> 00:13:18,480
It'd be like, oh, cool.

347
00:13:18,540 --> 00:13:19,580
I didn't even know about that.

348
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:21,240
And then I'm like, hey, do you want a biddy?

349
00:13:21,900 --> 00:13:24,200
And I think, in a sense, you know what I mean?

350
00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:27,060
I'm not sure that would be my next line, but okay.

351
00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,380
But hey, you kept an extra 3%.

352
00:13:30,380 --> 00:13:32,260
Don't worry, it's just an itty.

353
00:13:33,220 --> 00:13:36,180
We start them with the itty bitty, hook them,

354
00:13:36,460 --> 00:13:37,620
and then they get the bitty.

355
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:38,580
Hook them horns, all right.

356
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:41,560
Yeah, I mean, I'll just say,

357
00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:46,120
matter. I've had two merchant interactions in the last couple of weeks. And these are people that,

358
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,200
I mean, I never want to push anyone too hard. And like increasingly, you know, Deacon and I've

359
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,560
talked about this. Like I definitely, I want to, you know, put the seed out there. And when people

360
00:13:54,560 --> 00:13:57,280
are ready, I want them to come to me, but you know, I don't want to be the guy that's like,

361
00:13:57,340 --> 00:14:02,440
oh, hey man, where's your, so at my, at my farmer's market, there's my, my chocolate dealer

362
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,880
who's on Square. Super cool guy. I would say at this point, we're like, we're, we're friends. I

363
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,360
I mean, we chat about all kinds of things, whatever.

364
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,060
If there was anyone that I feel comfortable just as like,

365
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,260
hey, dude, turn it on, it's him.

366
00:14:15,780 --> 00:14:17,540
And I've mentioned multiple times, he's interested.

367
00:14:17,940 --> 00:14:18,900
He's not anti it.

368
00:14:19,820 --> 00:14:21,600
He even told me, he's like,

369
00:14:21,620 --> 00:14:23,360
oh, it's probably better to do it when the price is low.

370
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,240
It's better to buy when low than high.

371
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:26,940
I'm like, yep, all these things are true.

372
00:14:28,060 --> 00:14:30,760
But every time I see him, I could tell last time he got nervous.

373
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,240
He was like, yeah, I'm feeling anxious.

374
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:33,480
I know I haven't turned it on yet.

375
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,320
And I was like, we could just do it right now.

376
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,140
He's like, yeah, but my wife, you know, she runs the register and she's not there.

377
00:14:39,860 --> 00:14:41,800
But if I could just say, bro, can I pay you in Bitcoin?

378
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:42,480
I'd be like, of course.

379
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,740
So that friction of him having to convince his wife, go to a settings bar, and then it's

380
00:14:46,740 --> 00:14:48,920
hot and we can do it now, but he's got customer.

381
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:50,680
She's never going to have him, but he's not anti it.

382
00:14:50,740 --> 00:14:51,320
He would do it.

383
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,360
So that to me is a win as soon as this is possible.

384
00:14:54,820 --> 00:14:56,500
My tea dealer, same thing.

385
00:14:56,660 --> 00:14:58,040
She thought it was cool.

386
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:00,300
And she was here up in our office.

387
00:15:00,420 --> 00:15:01,440
So she's not anti Bitcoin.

388
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,300
She knows we have brought lots of business to her because she does great tea for her.

389
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:06,260
our last time.

390
00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:07,020
I'm an amazing lady.

391
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:08,780
And yeah,

392
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:09,960
and we're also homies.

393
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:10,720
Your dealer,

394
00:15:10,860 --> 00:15:11,300
like how many,

395
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:12,500
how many people in your life

396
00:15:12,500 --> 00:15:13,440
do you refer to as a dealer?

397
00:15:13,820 --> 00:15:15,600
You've got a tea dealer,

398
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:17,480
your honey dealer.

399
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:18,800
I've got DK,

400
00:15:18,940 --> 00:15:19,660
my meme dealer.

401
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:21,400
Ori,

402
00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:21,920
Ori bot,

403
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:22,920
Satbot's your meme dealer.

404
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:23,160
Yeah,

405
00:15:23,340 --> 00:15:24,520
Satbot's my meme dealer.

406
00:15:24,700 --> 00:15:25,320
So maybe,

407
00:15:25,620 --> 00:15:27,580
Matt Belez is my alpha dealer.

408
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:28,360
Maybe,

409
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:28,740
maybe,

410
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:30,800
maybe the Swear UI

411
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,840
needs to emphasize

412
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:34,300
like,

413
00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:39,360
these payments received had no fees, right?

414
00:15:39,540 --> 00:15:40,060
100%.

415
00:15:40,060 --> 00:15:41,540
Because if you're a seller

416
00:15:41,540 --> 00:15:44,660
and you don't even know that this has been enabled for you

417
00:15:44,660 --> 00:15:46,700
and you don't even necessarily know

418
00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:48,320
that customers are paying this way

419
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:49,960
if it's so seamless, right?

420
00:15:51,060 --> 00:15:52,720
So you're just simply unaware.

421
00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:54,000
But then if you can see,

422
00:15:54,140 --> 00:15:55,480
if it's prominent in your UI that,

423
00:15:55,620 --> 00:15:57,720
oh, these are zero fees.

424
00:15:58,580 --> 00:15:59,180
Why are these?

425
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,280
Why are these zero fees?

426
00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:02,260
Oh, it's because of this.

427
00:16:02,380 --> 00:16:03,500
Oh, I should promote it.

428
00:16:03,620 --> 00:16:03,940
Yeah, exactly.

429
00:16:03,940 --> 00:16:06,000
Yeah, and if there's ways to encourage people.

430
00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:06,660
Exactly.

431
00:16:06,820 --> 00:16:07,740
And then every week I'll be like,

432
00:16:07,780 --> 00:16:09,580
hey man, aren't you glad you made 3% more?

433
00:16:09,620 --> 00:16:10,260
And I'll be like, yeah.

434
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:11,920
Yep.

435
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:13,040
Big comments.

436
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,100
So another thing we wanted to talk about today

437
00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:20,420
and sort of segue from this is about Bitcoin branding.

438
00:16:21,020 --> 00:16:25,340
So there's different things that I'm hoping to discuss.

439
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,620
And one actually is with Bitcoin merchants.

440
00:16:28,620 --> 00:16:30,180
Like the Bitcoin merchant community,

441
00:16:30,180 --> 00:16:38,660
they reported some experiences where they would go advocate to turn this on with sellers that use Square.

442
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:46,340
And I think it's a small proportion, but a very emotional small set were like vehemently opposed to Bitcoin.

443
00:16:46,460 --> 00:16:54,240
They just had this like very instinctual hatred of Bitcoin, whether rational or not.

444
00:16:54,420 --> 00:16:57,120
Probably not, but anyway, that's how they feel.

445
00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:57,560
Right.

446
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:04,120
And so Bitcoin really, you know, they didn't, for them, it was a bad rant.

447
00:17:04,340 --> 00:17:04,580
Yeah.

448
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:06,820
That they didn't want to be associated with.

449
00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:07,120
Yeah.

450
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:14,860
A second experience that I brought up is that maybe move itty bitty into the screen.

451
00:17:14,940 --> 00:17:18,180
I was about to say, Steve turned his back on this little creature.

452
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:19,940
So now we're going to bring it back?

453
00:17:20,120 --> 00:17:21,220
Spirals on little itty bitty.

454
00:17:21,420 --> 00:17:22,100
He says no.

455
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:22,840
Bring it back.

456
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:24,000
He says he was kicked off.

457
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:24,640
He's done.

458
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:26,600
He says no.

459
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,500
We've had itty-bitty on our set,

460
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,780
and I suggested we move him off our set,

461
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,140
and I'll explain why in a second.

462
00:17:33,340 --> 00:17:34,420
He turns his back to you, Steve.

463
00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:36,480
Yeah, as he should.

464
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:43,500
And then, Max, you've had some experiences recently.

465
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,380
One of our goals at PB on this show,

466
00:17:47,380 --> 00:17:49,080
bridging the gap to Silicon Valley,

467
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:50,840
more engagement with tech and AI,

468
00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:53,760
and bigger tent for Bitcoin.

469
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,660
and we've been experimenting with different approaches

470
00:17:56,660 --> 00:17:59,140
on how to approach different segments of people.

471
00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:03,180
And you've had some experiences where you felt like

472
00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:05,300
people we want to engage with

473
00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:07,240
and we think they'd benefit from that engagement

474
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,140
definitely get turned off from simply

475
00:18:10,140 --> 00:18:13,060
seeing the venue name as Pursuit Bitcoin.

476
00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:15,340
So all these different touch points.

477
00:18:15,660 --> 00:18:17,260
And then I think we've even talked on the show

478
00:18:17,260 --> 00:18:20,140
about some of our different approaches.

479
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,720
Obviously having the Type 1 Energy Summit here

480
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,100
AI hackathons here.

481
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,540
We've had a lot of positive experiences as well.

482
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:28,240
Super positive, yeah.

483
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:30,720
But let me start with this.

484
00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:34,480
Why did I suggest we boot this little dude off our set?

485
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,000
I was scrolling through LinkedIn,

486
00:18:39,740 --> 00:18:43,200
and we have a PresidioBitcoin has an account there.

487
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:44,960
We promote the show there.

488
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,540
LinkedIn, like Bitcoin Twitter

489
00:18:47,540 --> 00:18:52,100
is not where we're going to attract tech people to this show.

490
00:18:52,100 --> 00:18:56,900
And by the way, we've said this many times in the show, LinkedIn is where the alpha is, like straight up.

491
00:18:56,900 --> 00:18:59,840
But LinkedIn is where like tech people.

492
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:01,960
Everyone's on LinkedIn.

493
00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:09,320
Well, I mean, tech people are maybe on Twitter too, but they're unlikely to see like Bitcoiners tweets.

494
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,480
But on LinkedIn, they'll see stuff that I repost or any of us repost or whatever.

495
00:19:15,060 --> 00:19:19,700
And the screenshot there, you know, this is super, super prominent.

496
00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:23,420
and he is really cuddly

497
00:19:23,420 --> 00:19:24,240
and I mean,

498
00:19:24,300 --> 00:19:25,880
I'll speak glowingly

499
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:26,540
about this guy

500
00:19:26,540 --> 00:19:27,460
in other contexts,

501
00:19:27,580 --> 00:19:28,400
but it really depends

502
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:28,900
on the audience.

503
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:29,620
I mean, let me start

504
00:19:29,620 --> 00:19:30,440
with like glow.

505
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,060
So I have seen

506
00:19:32,060 --> 00:19:33,860
women and children

507
00:19:33,860 --> 00:19:35,580
love this guy

508
00:19:35,580 --> 00:19:36,260
in particular.

509
00:19:36,620 --> 00:19:38,800
Like kids love it.

510
00:19:39,340 --> 00:19:40,420
And so,

511
00:19:40,820 --> 00:19:42,480
and even Square,

512
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:43,460
like sellers,

513
00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:45,580
many sellers love it.

514
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:46,860
They put this up,

515
00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:47,620
once they turn

516
00:19:47,620 --> 00:19:48,620
Bitcoin payments on

517
00:19:48,620 --> 00:19:49,380
with Square,

518
00:19:49,380 --> 00:19:53,640
they put this on their counter and it's like a great conversation starter in their store.

519
00:19:55,320 --> 00:20:00,660
And for a lot of sellers, it's not a turnoff. It's just a super lightweight way to start the

520
00:20:00,660 --> 00:20:05,740
conversation about, oh, we accept Bitcoin. So there are many audiences where I think this is

521
00:20:05,740 --> 00:20:10,840
like amazing. But when I'm scrolling through my LinkedIn and I see that picture and that's what

522
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:18,700
stands out beyond like the three of our faces, this stands out. And anyone who has this,

523
00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:22,840
a lot of tech people, I'd say the majority of tech people are kind of

524
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,860
just turned off by that because they lump it in with Sam

525
00:20:25,860 --> 00:20:31,220
you know, SPF and crypto and FTX and Web3 and all this like nonsense.

526
00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:35,380
Yeah. All this like fraud and scammy behavior and like not adding value

527
00:20:35,380 --> 00:20:39,220
to the world. And so that's where we get lumped in then.

528
00:20:39,220 --> 00:20:43,280
And so I suspect there's a huge portion of people then who don't

529
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,320
wouldn't give our show a chance. But if they actually listen to the show

530
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,240
They realize we talk about AI and tech the majority of the time.

531
00:20:51,660 --> 00:20:54,980
Bitcoin's just lightly interwoven into what we talk about.

532
00:20:55,860 --> 00:20:58,100
And it's not like any of us have given up on Bitcoin.

533
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,160
We're as passionate about Bitcoin as we ever have been.

534
00:21:00,580 --> 00:21:01,820
We're trying to reach a new audience.

535
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,140
And also, I mean, with AI in particular, it's such an acceleration movement.

536
00:21:06,220 --> 00:21:07,700
Anyone has to get on that train.

537
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:09,960
We hopped on that train.

538
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:10,700
We're on that train.

539
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,380
And Bitcoin is part of that, too.

540
00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:19,700
In any case, I just worry that this actually is a net negative in that context.

541
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:27,280
So that's why I'm suggesting we remove it, not because we don't like that little dude and not that we don't like Bitcoin.

542
00:21:27,740 --> 00:21:28,480
So that's one example.

543
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:45,520
With the square sellers, Haley mentioned yesterday an idea of maybe instead of emphasizing, and this one's, I think, more controversial, but I think it's an interesting discussion.

544
00:21:45,740 --> 00:21:46,260
Controversy.

545
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:52,560
Instead of emphasizing, like, hey, Mr. and Mrs. Merchant, enable Bitcoin, please.

546
00:21:52,820 --> 00:21:55,080
Or do you know that Bitcoin was just enabled?

547
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:56,840
Instead, lightning.

548
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:57,700
Yeah.

549
00:21:57,700 --> 00:22:10,300
So I'll tell you the why, but interestingly, I have been opposed to that up to date, or to date, despite having a team that works on Lightning.

550
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:11,660
We're huge Lightning fans.

551
00:22:11,860 --> 00:22:13,540
We build Lightning infrastructure.

552
00:22:13,900 --> 00:22:15,080
I think it's an amazing technology.

553
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,100
I just don't think Lightning needs to be at a consumer level.

554
00:22:19,260 --> 00:22:22,420
It's just like plumbing that makes things work beautifully for people.

555
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:24,740
That's why I'm like, get it out of the UI.

556
00:22:24,740 --> 00:22:27,260
get it out of the, we don't need that vocabulary

557
00:22:27,260 --> 00:22:28,880
for other users and stuff

558
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:44,154
so that been my position it still my position however I do think this is an interesting proposition because you know Cash App also last fall launched dollars on Lightning So 60 million monthly users of Cash App they all have dollars

559
00:22:44,594 --> 00:22:44,914
Oh, my God.

560
00:22:45,054 --> 00:22:46,134
If Max is not aware of this.

561
00:22:46,174 --> 00:22:47,194
What do you mean dollars on Lightning?

562
00:22:47,434 --> 00:22:48,194
How do they do this?

563
00:22:48,954 --> 00:22:51,014
Dude, don't you watch PBJ?

564
00:22:52,814 --> 00:22:54,434
What do you mean, though?

565
00:22:55,014 --> 00:23:00,254
So 60 million Cash App customers can pay Lightning invoices.

566
00:23:00,254 --> 00:23:00,754
Yeah, okay.

567
00:23:00,754 --> 00:23:01,114
Yeah.

568
00:23:02,194 --> 00:23:04,754
So like they don't need to be a Bitcoiner.

569
00:23:04,874 --> 00:23:06,174
They don't need to own Bitcoin.

570
00:23:06,334 --> 00:23:06,514
Right.

571
00:23:06,774 --> 00:23:10,134
But they can scan a Bolt 11 QR code.

572
00:23:10,194 --> 00:23:10,354
Right.

573
00:23:10,474 --> 00:23:10,954
Pay it.

574
00:23:11,434 --> 00:23:12,174
No fees.

575
00:23:12,994 --> 00:23:14,174
And everyone's happy.

576
00:23:14,394 --> 00:23:14,514
Right.

577
00:23:15,074 --> 00:23:20,974
So and like the seller and the customer don't need to hold or care about Bitcoin.

578
00:23:21,234 --> 00:23:21,434
Right.

579
00:23:21,814 --> 00:23:23,514
It just happens over the Bitcoin network.

580
00:23:23,734 --> 00:23:23,994
Totally.

581
00:23:24,114 --> 00:23:24,754
And the Lightning network.

582
00:23:24,754 --> 00:23:25,014
Yep.

583
00:23:25,654 --> 00:23:29,434
Which by the way is when I'm pitching the merchants in the first place, I'm not saying you should stack Bitcoin.

584
00:23:29,434 --> 00:23:30,314
for the most cases.

585
00:23:30,434 --> 00:23:30,974
I'm just saying,

586
00:23:31,254 --> 00:23:31,814
and I would even say,

587
00:23:31,874 --> 00:23:33,214
I love this framing of Lightning

588
00:23:33,214 --> 00:23:34,374
because it gets rid of all the baggage.

589
00:23:34,814 --> 00:23:35,314
I mean, also,

590
00:23:35,394 --> 00:23:36,334
another thing to attest

591
00:23:36,334 --> 00:23:36,954
would just be like,

592
00:23:37,174 --> 00:23:38,054
turn on fee-free.

593
00:23:39,394 --> 00:23:40,434
Literally, my pitch to them

594
00:23:40,434 --> 00:23:41,274
is I'm going to pay you dollars,

595
00:23:41,354 --> 00:23:41,954
you're going to get dollars,

596
00:23:42,114 --> 00:23:42,974
we cut out the fees.

597
00:23:43,834 --> 00:23:45,914
So it eliminates

598
00:23:45,914 --> 00:23:49,074
any kind of preconceived notions.

599
00:23:49,394 --> 00:23:50,714
Oh, Bitcoin's a Trump thing

600
00:23:50,714 --> 00:23:51,274
or an Elon

601
00:23:51,274 --> 00:23:52,654
or a conservative movement

602
00:23:52,654 --> 00:23:54,094
or it's bad for the environment,

603
00:23:54,294 --> 00:23:54,454
you know,

604
00:23:54,494 --> 00:23:55,634
it takes up too much energy

605
00:23:55,634 --> 00:23:57,474
or it's deflationary currency

606
00:23:57,474 --> 00:23:57,894
you'll never wear.

607
00:23:57,894 --> 00:24:02,034
whatever your concern might be, it just removes that.

608
00:24:02,154 --> 00:24:04,474
Instead, you're presented with lightning technology,

609
00:24:04,694 --> 00:24:08,294
which has little awareness and it's just sort of like,

610
00:24:08,734 --> 00:24:10,054
it's just technology.

611
00:24:10,274 --> 00:24:12,674
It doesn't have anything else baked into it.

612
00:24:13,314 --> 00:24:15,174
So it's kind of just dispassionate.

613
00:24:15,294 --> 00:24:17,394
It's like, oh, I love no fees.

614
00:24:18,314 --> 00:24:20,694
And oh, lightning is this technology that enables it?

615
00:24:20,754 --> 00:24:20,974
Great.

616
00:24:20,974 --> 00:24:25,434
And people who have dollars or Bitcoin can pay?

617
00:24:25,554 --> 00:24:25,814
Great.

618
00:24:25,814 --> 00:24:27,794
I can receive whatever I want to receive.

619
00:24:27,934 --> 00:24:28,034
Great.

620
00:24:28,594 --> 00:24:32,734
So I think that's really, I mean, we're going to keep discussing that.

621
00:24:32,814 --> 00:24:34,654
I think that's really an interesting angle.

622
00:24:36,494 --> 00:24:43,214
And although I think the end point is still, the end end point is Bitcoin still.

623
00:24:43,514 --> 00:24:45,594
But like as the pitch right now, I think that's compelling.

624
00:24:46,274 --> 00:24:48,674
And then, yeah, let's talk about.

625
00:24:48,674 --> 00:24:56,834
And the thing of that should be the pitch to merchants, to explain to merchants why they should enable this thing. Is that right?

626
00:24:56,834 --> 00:25:05,054
Yeah, I mean, I think the right pitch that we have been promoting since November is save the fees, right?

627
00:25:05,234 --> 00:25:07,654
And so that remains consistent.

628
00:25:07,994 --> 00:25:08,994
That's the primary pitch.

629
00:25:09,574 --> 00:25:12,514
But then sort of like, well, how do you, oh, yes, I want to save fees.

630
00:25:12,594 --> 00:25:12,874
How?

631
00:25:13,634 --> 00:25:16,014
And instead of saying, oh, enable Bitcoin.

632
00:25:16,774 --> 00:25:17,174
Right.

633
00:25:17,674 --> 00:25:19,214
Instead, enable Lightning Network.

634
00:25:19,214 --> 00:25:22,754
which allows anyone with a Bitcoin wallet to pay,

635
00:25:23,074 --> 00:25:25,234
any cash app customer to pay,

636
00:25:25,414 --> 00:25:26,894
whether dollars or Bitcoin.

637
00:25:27,454 --> 00:25:28,714
It's like Visa, but free.

638
00:25:29,554 --> 00:25:30,534
It's like Visa, but free.

639
00:25:31,294 --> 00:25:33,314
And there's going to be more and more,

640
00:25:33,414 --> 00:25:36,754
there's going to be more cash apps on this network.

641
00:25:36,754 --> 00:25:37,194
Right.

642
00:25:37,674 --> 00:25:41,594
Other, you know, banks, fintech companies, etc.

643
00:25:42,014 --> 00:25:45,414
So that's the variation here that's being,

644
00:25:45,814 --> 00:25:46,834
that Haley proposed.

645
00:25:47,374 --> 00:25:47,834
That's cool.

646
00:25:47,834 --> 00:25:54,814
And I told her that I initially thought I was going to hate on this idea, but I'm like, I actually, I like it.

647
00:25:55,094 --> 00:25:55,934
I think it's a great idea.

648
00:25:55,954 --> 00:25:56,874
Let's keep discussing that.

649
00:25:58,054 --> 00:26:04,014
And then, well, let's talk about your experience with inviting people here.

650
00:26:04,194 --> 00:26:08,354
But it's something we've talked about for months now.

651
00:26:09,494 --> 00:26:11,254
PB is Presidio Bitcoin.

652
00:26:11,714 --> 00:26:14,334
It's a little over one year old now, our home here.

653
00:26:14,494 --> 00:26:16,654
It's been a resounding success.

654
00:26:16,654 --> 00:26:18,694
It's a life changer.

655
00:26:18,774 --> 00:26:20,834
Almost every dimension, huge success.

656
00:26:21,374 --> 00:26:22,894
25, 21 out of 10.

657
00:26:23,034 --> 00:26:25,514
This show is named Presidio Bitcoin Jam.

658
00:26:25,834 --> 00:26:29,054
Obviously, it's a show that the three of us do,

659
00:26:29,414 --> 00:26:30,434
but we're doing it.

660
00:26:30,814 --> 00:26:31,714
This is not our business.

661
00:26:31,854 --> 00:26:33,014
We make no money off of this.

662
00:26:33,374 --> 00:26:37,014
We just do it to help Presidio Bitcoin,

663
00:26:37,734 --> 00:26:39,634
help Bitcoin itself.

664
00:26:40,774 --> 00:26:44,714
But we just talk about whatever we want to talk about.

665
00:26:44,714 --> 00:26:52,994
which is mostly ai and a little bit of iowa state so um but but you know but the reality is what do

666
00:26:52,994 --> 00:26:59,234
we spend a you know a majority of time talking about uh ai building entrepreneurs innovation

667
00:26:59,234 --> 00:27:05,914
yep um and it's not surprising like uh we have been we either you know we're either angel

668
00:27:05,914 --> 00:27:10,994
investors or venture capitalists uh like david started a number of companies before

669
00:27:10,994 --> 00:27:13,654
me a little less so, but some.

670
00:27:13,734 --> 00:27:14,234
E-board player.

671
00:27:14,294 --> 00:27:16,674
But I'm always working on zero to one types of things.

672
00:27:16,754 --> 00:27:19,434
So we're all like builders, early stage type of people,

673
00:27:19,654 --> 00:27:20,434
independent of Bitcoin.

674
00:27:20,574 --> 00:27:23,174
So it's no surprise that's where our passions lie.

675
00:27:23,894 --> 00:27:26,314
Anyway, you know, I've jokingly said like,

676
00:27:26,374 --> 00:27:29,734
oh, PBJ, you know, it's Presidio Builder Jam.

677
00:27:29,734 --> 00:27:32,814
And then even PB, Presidio Builder.

678
00:27:34,194 --> 00:27:38,094
And, you know, to date, that's just kind of, you know,

679
00:27:38,714 --> 00:27:39,594
jokingly said.

680
00:27:39,594 --> 00:27:41,834
but I do find

681
00:27:41,834 --> 00:27:43,894
depending on the context

682
00:27:43,894 --> 00:27:45,934
for my audience, I'll say Presidio

683
00:27:45,934 --> 00:27:47,854
Bitcoin or I'll just shorten it

684
00:27:47,854 --> 00:27:49,794
to PB or I'll say

685
00:27:49,794 --> 00:27:51,974
Presidio Bitcoin Jam or I'll shorten it to PBJ

686
00:27:51,974 --> 00:27:53,834
and if it's an audience where I think Bitcoin

687
00:27:53,834 --> 00:27:55,954
might be a turn off but I actually

688
00:27:55,954 --> 00:27:57,674
think they'd like our show or they'd like

689
00:27:57,674 --> 00:27:59,654
coming here or they'd like the people here

690
00:27:59,654 --> 00:28:01,354
or they'd like the discussions here

691
00:28:01,354 --> 00:28:03,774
you know, by toning it

692
00:28:03,774 --> 00:28:05,134
down and just giving the acronym

693
00:28:05,134 --> 00:28:07,974
they just eliminate

694
00:28:07,974 --> 00:28:09,314
a barrier for them to coming

695
00:28:09,314 --> 00:28:13,394
And what we've found is I think 100% of people who come here.

696
00:28:13,454 --> 00:28:13,854
Oh, yeah.

697
00:28:14,154 --> 00:28:14,914
Once they're here.

698
00:28:15,154 --> 00:28:19,954
So it's not like we're tricking people or like, ah, ha ha.

699
00:28:20,114 --> 00:28:20,714
You rugged us.

700
00:28:21,094 --> 00:28:21,994
You know, rugged us.

701
00:28:23,274 --> 00:28:26,454
No, 100% of people love coming here.

702
00:28:26,554 --> 00:28:27,834
Once they're here, love it.

703
00:28:27,854 --> 00:28:28,694
Because it's freaking awesome.

704
00:28:28,694 --> 00:28:30,954
Even if they wouldn't identify as a Bitcoiner.

705
00:28:31,154 --> 00:28:31,394
Totally.

706
00:28:31,394 --> 00:28:42,634
But yeah, it raises a good question about where does Bitcoin's brand have a place in the naming of PBJ, the show, etc.

707
00:28:43,314 --> 00:28:46,034
Yeah, but maybe you can start with your story.

708
00:28:46,294 --> 00:28:48,954
Yeah, I mean, I would give just a couple of points of feedback.

709
00:28:49,094 --> 00:28:50,254
I think there are different people.

710
00:28:50,454 --> 00:28:54,194
I mean, Bitcoin's been around 15 years, and so it has a lot of baggage, both good and bad.

711
00:28:54,374 --> 00:28:55,454
Sadly, a lot of it bad.

712
00:28:55,454 --> 00:29:24,374
I mean, in more traditional, let's say, tech circles, I have all my friends from college that are in tech are not necessarily into Bitcoin. Anjali and her friends are not into Bitcoin. And so it definitely, the first challenge I find is still association with crypto. And I've had people be like, why are you so vehemently, anti-passionately, just hatred of crypto? And it's because they have made our job of what we're trying to do to put peer-to-peer currency in an open payment network so much harder.

713
00:29:24,374 --> 00:29:29,514
like just yesterday i you know whatever like not all the individuals on here are necessarily bad

714
00:29:29,514 --> 00:29:33,434
or ever but like someone's seeing this vanity fair vogue photo shoot with all these crypto people and

715
00:29:33,434 --> 00:29:38,894
there's the the early coinbase guy it's like god like why why and the worst part is it's like all

716
00:29:38,894 --> 00:29:43,194
of the worst excesses of the financial system like satoshi would be rolling over in his grave

717
00:29:43,194 --> 00:29:48,674
the whole point was to dinner disintermediate the graph and the insider trading and all that stuff

718
00:29:48,674 --> 00:29:53,514
and it's just like and the worst part is these crypto people that have made so much money

719
00:29:53,514 --> 00:29:55,254
launching these scam tokens.

720
00:29:55,614 --> 00:29:57,894
Has any of them done anything besides Bitcoin, by the way?

721
00:29:57,974 --> 00:29:58,774
I would say no.

722
00:29:59,394 --> 00:29:59,974
But whatever.

723
00:30:00,054 --> 00:30:00,954
But they keep launching them.

724
00:30:01,174 --> 00:30:02,914
And now that that narrative is dying,

725
00:30:03,294 --> 00:30:04,234
I've noticed two things.

726
00:30:04,314 --> 00:30:06,494
A lot of those people will start calling,

727
00:30:06,594 --> 00:30:07,514
oh, we're into Bitcoin again.

728
00:30:07,534 --> 00:30:08,774
It's like, no, we don't want you, bro.

729
00:30:08,894 --> 00:30:09,574
We don't want you.

730
00:30:09,674 --> 00:30:10,354
Stay over there.

731
00:30:10,794 --> 00:30:12,194
But they say Bitcoin,

732
00:30:12,334 --> 00:30:14,094
and then they end up lumping us in with that group.

733
00:30:14,714 --> 00:30:17,974
Or now they've started going,

734
00:30:18,094 --> 00:30:19,094
and there's something else I know we're going to talk about,

735
00:30:19,174 --> 00:30:20,314
too, open source AI.

736
00:30:20,594 --> 00:30:22,754
You shared an open source AI meetup,

737
00:30:22,754 --> 00:30:26,054
which we love open source. Silicon Valley loves open source. I think we should push more for open

738
00:30:26,054 --> 00:30:30,354
source. But I looked at this open source AI and it's like literally all of the crypto grifters,

739
00:30:30,514 --> 00:30:35,474
scammers, all of the VCs that have been pumping bags in what should be illegal activity over and

740
00:30:35,474 --> 00:30:40,854
over and over. And it's like, no, please no more. Make it stop. Anyways, so it's just really

741
00:30:40,854 --> 00:30:44,154
frustrating to me. And like, there are very few things that piss me off, but this really pisses

742
00:30:44,154 --> 00:30:47,414
me off because I feel like I've been fighting this like uphill battle for five, six years.

743
00:30:47,514 --> 00:30:50,774
At some point, I should have equanimity and accept. I can't control what other people do,

744
00:30:50,774 --> 00:30:53,354
but like I don't want to be lumped in with crypto bros anymore.

745
00:30:53,534 --> 00:30:54,054
I'm sick of it.

746
00:30:54,154 --> 00:30:54,774
I'm sick of it.

747
00:30:55,254 --> 00:30:57,374
And anyways, it's made, I feel like my job

748
00:30:57,374 --> 00:30:59,714
so much more difficult over the last several years

749
00:30:59,714 --> 00:31:01,614
when I try and go and explain to my friends

750
00:31:01,614 --> 00:31:03,234
who are in serious tech working in AI,

751
00:31:03,574 --> 00:31:04,994
as soon as they hear the word Bitcoin,

752
00:31:05,234 --> 00:31:05,914
not all of them,

753
00:31:05,974 --> 00:31:07,274
the ones that have known me for years

754
00:31:07,274 --> 00:31:08,794
and have seen my journey we've talked about,

755
00:31:08,894 --> 00:31:09,954
they're more open to talking.

756
00:31:11,034 --> 00:31:12,974
But, you know, immediately they just lump me in.

757
00:31:13,154 --> 00:31:14,454
Like I forgot who I was with the other day,

758
00:31:14,494 --> 00:31:15,714
but, you know, I was trying to explain,

759
00:31:15,834 --> 00:31:17,214
hey, you know, you should come, you know,

760
00:31:17,874 --> 00:31:18,614
talk with us about Bitcoin.

761
00:31:18,894 --> 00:31:20,734
Like, oh man, that's that SBF.

762
00:31:20,774 --> 00:31:26,154
thing. And I was like, bro, SPF has not only does he have nothing to do with Bitcoin, he went to jail

763
00:31:26,154 --> 00:31:32,734
because he was saying that he was buying Bitcoin, but was not illegally. And anyways, it's just so

764
00:31:32,734 --> 00:31:37,794
freaking frustrating. But that's a narrative problem. So specifically, the way that I've

765
00:31:37,794 --> 00:31:42,094
combated this so far is, you know, when I threw the Type 1 Energy Summit, and we had a Type 1

766
00:31:42,094 --> 00:31:46,254
follow up dinner, which was amazing. And by the way, some of the, you know, it was Chatham House,

767
00:31:46,314 --> 00:31:50,154
I won't name who was all there. But let's say some of the absolute best investors in all of

768
00:31:50,154 --> 00:31:55,474
technology, some of the absolute top of the top of the top of the, you know, whatever technology

769
00:31:55,474 --> 00:31:59,774
pyramid, nothing to do with Bitcoin crypto. These people all came back, which means they had an

770
00:31:59,774 --> 00:32:04,034
incredible experience at the type one summit. They realized there's nothing scammy going on here. In

771
00:32:04,034 --> 00:32:08,374
fact, they like what we're doing here. They like our vision so much that they wanted to come back,

772
00:32:08,594 --> 00:32:12,294
but they needed to have that first touch point. And the way I got them all in the door in the

773
00:32:12,294 --> 00:32:15,874
first place was it had nothing to do with Bitcoin. It was doing an energy conference.

774
00:32:16,374 --> 00:32:19,414
To me, Bitcoin is a ledger of kilowatt hours or joules.

775
00:32:19,534 --> 00:32:20,774
It is an energy-backed currency.

776
00:32:20,914 --> 00:32:22,194
We have nothing to do with cryptocurrency,

777
00:32:22,594 --> 00:32:24,574
nothing to do with any tokens.

778
00:32:24,994 --> 00:32:26,254
We are a ledger of joules,

779
00:32:26,554 --> 00:32:28,434
and we're going to be talking about how a ledger of joules

780
00:32:28,434 --> 00:32:30,674
and ledgers of intelligence with real tokens,

781
00:32:30,814 --> 00:32:31,774
intelligence tokens, interact.

782
00:32:31,974 --> 00:32:32,254
That's it.

783
00:32:32,854 --> 00:32:34,634
That was extremely successful.

784
00:32:35,194 --> 00:32:37,134
And then so much so those people now have trust

785
00:32:37,134 --> 00:32:40,014
that we're not these scammy whatever crypto bros.

786
00:32:40,334 --> 00:32:40,974
So they come back,

787
00:32:41,014 --> 00:32:42,134
and we're going to keep building out from there.

788
00:32:42,134 --> 00:32:43,774
That was so huge when you tell,

789
00:32:43,914 --> 00:32:45,274
and yeah, I'm not going to name the person,

790
00:32:45,274 --> 00:32:52,774
But people who have been top tech executives who wouldn't call themselves Bitcoiners,

791
00:32:52,834 --> 00:32:56,614
the fact they came back again, I think is just a great data point.

792
00:32:56,694 --> 00:32:59,634
Yeah, because the more we talk, they're like, oh, I love your worldview.

793
00:32:59,954 --> 00:33:04,254
Everything in the history of humanity, every monetary good is in fact a proxy on energy.

794
00:33:04,414 --> 00:33:05,694
Gold was a proxy on energy.

795
00:33:06,014 --> 00:33:07,434
The dollar is a proxy on oil.

796
00:33:07,814 --> 00:33:09,634
And then I'm like, Bitcoin is the purest proxy in that.

797
00:33:09,774 --> 00:33:11,114
Well, what about blah, blah, blah?

798
00:33:11,294 --> 00:33:13,214
It's like, we have nothing to do with any of them.

799
00:33:13,214 --> 00:33:17,854
Like anyone that says Bitcoin and, you know, is in the excesses of finance, yeah, not interested.

800
00:33:18,614 --> 00:33:22,514
We're here to create a fair energy backed ledger for the world.

801
00:33:22,654 --> 00:33:22,854
Anyways.

802
00:33:23,154 --> 00:33:23,234
Right.

803
00:33:23,914 --> 00:33:24,314
Yeah.

804
00:33:24,394 --> 00:33:28,274
I was going to say, I agree with all that sentiment.

805
00:33:28,434 --> 00:33:32,814
I know I love hearing you amped up about it because I feel that same pain a lot.

806
00:33:33,014 --> 00:33:35,374
But I love to hear kind of your version of it.

807
00:33:35,794 --> 00:33:36,674
One thing I was going to.

808
00:33:37,274 --> 00:33:37,594
Oh, go ahead.

809
00:33:38,054 --> 00:33:38,254
Sorry.

810
00:33:38,594 --> 00:33:39,974
I want to read a comment, but.

811
00:33:40,074 --> 00:33:40,214
Yeah.

812
00:33:41,334 --> 00:33:41,774
Sorry.

813
00:33:41,774 --> 00:33:41,854
Sorry.

814
00:33:41,854 --> 00:33:43,994
this is spicy

815
00:33:43,994 --> 00:33:46,754
the Epstein files are connecting directly

816
00:33:46,754 --> 00:33:47,574
to Spiral

817
00:33:47,574 --> 00:33:49,454
and the majority of core does

818
00:33:49,454 --> 00:33:54,414
I haven't seen it

819
00:33:54,414 --> 00:33:54,854
have you seen it?

820
00:33:54,854 --> 00:33:55,374
I haven't seen it either

821
00:33:55,374 --> 00:33:57,774
Zipgun can elaborate

822
00:33:57,774 --> 00:34:01,054
but I think like one of the emails

823
00:34:01,054 --> 00:34:02,914
Matt Corolla

824
00:34:02,914 --> 00:34:03,914
was in the

825
00:34:03,914 --> 00:34:05,654
thread or something

826
00:34:05,654 --> 00:34:06,994
maybe that's what he's referring to

827
00:34:06,994 --> 00:34:07,594
I don't know

828
00:34:07,594 --> 00:34:09,574
I can assure you

829
00:34:09,574 --> 00:34:11,734
Spiral had nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein

830
00:34:11,734 --> 00:34:16,094
no one from Spiral

831
00:34:16,094 --> 00:34:17,634
is on the island

832
00:34:17,634 --> 00:34:18,614
or in the ledger

833
00:34:18,614 --> 00:34:19,314
that's good

834
00:34:19,314 --> 00:34:21,154
and by the way

835
00:34:21,154 --> 00:34:22,194
we saw their hate

836
00:34:22,194 --> 00:34:23,494
on Sailor right

837
00:34:23,494 --> 00:34:24,554
he was like too autistic

838
00:34:24,554 --> 00:34:25,754
to get compromised on

839
00:34:25,754 --> 00:34:26,154
or something

840
00:34:26,154 --> 00:34:27,534
dude that made me love

841
00:34:27,534 --> 00:34:28,674
Michael Sailor so much more

842
00:34:28,674 --> 00:34:29,614
like this man

843
00:34:29,614 --> 00:34:30,694
is so autistic

844
00:34:30,694 --> 00:34:31,514
he can't be bought

845
00:34:31,514 --> 00:34:32,234
like literally

846
00:34:32,234 --> 00:34:32,794
I was just like

847
00:34:32,794 --> 00:34:33,494
let me buy up more

848
00:34:33,494 --> 00:34:34,074
micro strategy

849
00:34:34,074 --> 00:34:34,874
like this man

850
00:34:34,874 --> 00:34:35,734
like god bless

851
00:34:35,734 --> 00:34:37,654
but that's the point

852
00:34:37,654 --> 00:34:38,694
like we want the autists

853
00:34:38,694 --> 00:34:39,034
the people

854
00:34:39,034 --> 00:34:39,994
you know what I love

855
00:34:39,994 --> 00:34:40,534
about autists

856
00:34:40,534 --> 00:34:41,014
and I know this

857
00:34:41,014 --> 00:34:41,614
is

858
00:34:41,734 --> 00:34:42,434
They don't lie.

859
00:34:42,514 --> 00:34:43,354
They can't lie.

860
00:34:44,094 --> 00:34:45,194
An autist can't lie.

861
00:34:45,394 --> 00:34:47,034
If they see something is black,

862
00:34:47,354 --> 00:34:48,834
they cannot call it white.

863
00:34:49,054 --> 00:34:50,674
And God bless those people.

864
00:34:52,294 --> 00:34:53,974
It's just, I'm so sick of the lie.

865
00:34:54,134 --> 00:34:54,994
I mean, I'm sick of it.

866
00:34:55,034 --> 00:34:56,174
Anyways, but Deke,

867
00:34:56,214 --> 00:34:57,394
I wanted to hear what you wanted to say.

868
00:34:58,894 --> 00:34:59,874
Now I lost it.

869
00:34:59,934 --> 00:35:01,394
I'm loving your little Alex Jones.

870
00:35:01,694 --> 00:35:03,574
I know, I feel like Alex Jones right now.

871
00:35:04,314 --> 00:35:07,234
Should Bitcoin restart the same way

872
00:35:07,234 --> 00:35:09,674
as Bitcoin went to BTC?

873
00:35:09,674 --> 00:35:11,494
so I also don't understand what

874
00:35:11,494 --> 00:35:12,834
maybe talking about the naming

875
00:35:12,834 --> 00:35:13,914
Zipgun

876
00:35:13,914 --> 00:35:15,774
so Zipgun if you can elaborate

877
00:35:15,774 --> 00:35:17,414
we happy to discuss

878
00:35:17,414 --> 00:35:18,834
I wanted to hear your point

879
00:35:18,834 --> 00:35:19,554
so you also

880
00:35:19,554 --> 00:35:20,054
and by the way

881
00:35:20,054 --> 00:35:21,174
one last thing I wanted to add

882
00:35:21,174 --> 00:35:21,874
so part of the reason

883
00:35:21,874 --> 00:35:23,054
this came up recently is

884
00:35:23,054 --> 00:35:24,294
you know Angelina and I

885
00:35:24,294 --> 00:35:24,934
have been doing more

886
00:35:24,934 --> 00:35:26,154
sort of dinners around AI

887
00:35:26,154 --> 00:35:27,594
some open source focused stuff

888
00:35:27,594 --> 00:35:28,854
I mean you guys know

889
00:35:28,854 --> 00:35:30,154
like I'm extremely interested

890
00:35:30,154 --> 00:35:30,714
in compute

891
00:35:30,714 --> 00:35:31,514
I'm extremely interested

892
00:35:31,514 --> 00:35:32,834
in you know a lot of these

893
00:35:32,834 --> 00:35:33,734
sort of model companies

894
00:35:33,734 --> 00:35:34,594
and things you can do with it

895
00:35:34,594 --> 00:35:37,354
and I want for people to see

896
00:35:37,354 --> 00:35:38,294
you know I've got this idea

897
00:35:38,294 --> 00:35:39,574
that I've been working on

898
00:35:39,574 --> 00:35:41,674
some of their friends around how do you price intelligence

899
00:35:41,674 --> 00:35:43,354
and energy, which means I think eventually

900
00:35:43,354 --> 00:35:45,554
the GPU marketplace and Bitcoin. There's a lot of stuff

901
00:35:45,554 --> 00:35:47,774
we can talk about that. But in order for people

902
00:35:47,774 --> 00:35:49,474
in the AI world to take me seriously,

903
00:35:49,634 --> 00:35:51,714
it got really frustrating where I'd be like, oh, so what do you do?

904
00:35:51,774 --> 00:35:53,614
It's like, well, now I invest

905
00:35:53,614 --> 00:35:55,554
in energy and compute and energy

906
00:35:55,554 --> 00:35:57,394
backed money, which is Bitcoin. Oh, crypto,

907
00:35:57,614 --> 00:35:59,514
nah, just walk away. And it's

908
00:35:59,514 --> 00:36:01,474
just very challenging to even get someone

909
00:36:01,474 --> 00:36:03,574
in the door with that. So this was kind of

910
00:36:03,574 --> 00:36:05,354
the starting point is there are so many

911
00:36:05,354 --> 00:36:07,614
really intelligent people who

912
00:36:07,614 --> 00:36:09,634
I believe would be just blown away

913
00:36:09,634 --> 00:36:11,554
if they start to see Bitcoin the way we do

914
00:36:11,554 --> 00:36:12,914
and start to see the potential

915
00:36:12,914 --> 00:36:14,674
for Bitcoin and AI to interact.

916
00:36:14,974 --> 00:36:16,754
But you can't even start that conversation

917
00:36:16,754 --> 00:36:18,054
if their immediate thought is,

918
00:36:18,194 --> 00:36:20,554
oh, you're one of these scammer SPF guys.

919
00:36:20,834 --> 00:36:22,214
There's another group I want to talk about,

920
00:36:22,374 --> 00:36:24,114
but DK, I interrupted you.

921
00:36:24,274 --> 00:36:24,474
Sorry.

922
00:36:25,314 --> 00:36:27,714
Okay, just a couple other points

923
00:36:27,714 --> 00:36:30,014
on the Bitcoin branding label.

924
00:36:30,294 --> 00:36:32,354
One is, I feel like a lot of

925
00:36:32,354 --> 00:36:33,954
the Silicon Valley narrative,

926
00:36:34,274 --> 00:36:36,694
let's call it more the frontier

927
00:36:36,694 --> 00:36:38,734
Silicon Valley narrative. I think there's obviously the

928
00:36:38,734 --> 00:36:40,654
Web3 and all the different, you know,

929
00:36:40,694 --> 00:36:42,814
NFT stuff and crypto stuff that

930
00:36:42,814 --> 00:36:44,614
has kind of poisoned the well a little bit.

931
00:36:44,674 --> 00:36:46,814
But I think the current, let's call

932
00:36:46,814 --> 00:36:48,094
it the topic du jour,

933
00:36:48,754 --> 00:36:50,034
is Zcash

934
00:36:50,034 --> 00:36:52,714
and sort of the privacy

935
00:36:52,714 --> 00:36:54,334
nature of Zcash.

936
00:36:55,014 --> 00:36:56,714
Isn't that old news by now?

937
00:36:58,394 --> 00:37:00,534
I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I mean, yes,

938
00:37:00,694 --> 00:37:02,714
it's, I mean, we even, we kind of

939
00:37:02,714 --> 00:37:04,574
joked on that maybe six months ago, but I think

940
00:37:04,574 --> 00:37:06,594
that is like, I try to

941
00:37:06,594 --> 00:37:08,674
invite somebody to, what was it, one of the

942
00:37:08,674 --> 00:37:10,534
hackathons, kind of a prominent

943
00:37:10,534 --> 00:37:12,214
designer, I think you may recall.

944
00:37:12,794 --> 00:37:14,654
And the feedback was, oh, I

945
00:37:14,654 --> 00:37:16,534
think you should stop barking up that Bitcoin tree.

946
00:37:16,654 --> 00:37:18,254
You need stuff that's, you know,

947
00:37:18,774 --> 00:37:19,934
more privacy-oriented.

948
00:37:20,554 --> 00:37:22,674
Or that uses zero-knowledge proofs or something.

949
00:37:23,434 --> 00:37:24,194
I think that's a pat.

950
00:37:24,674 --> 00:37:26,494
That'll, I think it's already

951
00:37:26,494 --> 00:37:28,594
passed. But what I

952
00:37:28,594 --> 00:37:30,614
thought you were going to say is stablecoins. And I don't think

953
00:37:30,614 --> 00:37:32,634
that's going to, like, that's not a fad

954
00:37:32,634 --> 00:37:34,234
that'll pass in two months. Because

955
00:37:34,234 --> 00:37:36,894
stable coins aren't like a pump and dump.

956
00:37:37,134 --> 00:37:38,394
Like Zcash, I think, you know,

957
00:37:39,014 --> 00:37:40,894
Naval or whatever, they have a bunch of Zcash.

958
00:37:40,974 --> 00:37:41,874
They want to pump their bags.

959
00:37:42,054 --> 00:37:44,374
So they seize on this opportunity

960
00:37:44,374 --> 00:37:47,394
that Bitcoin's not private enough or whatever.

961
00:37:47,514 --> 00:37:49,374
It's not private and quantum resistant.

962
00:37:49,654 --> 00:37:51,634
And here's one that is private and quantum resistant.

963
00:37:51,834 --> 00:37:52,734
Buy my bags, please.

964
00:37:52,874 --> 00:37:53,534
Buy my bags.

965
00:37:54,014 --> 00:37:56,054
So I think that's why it'll just go.

966
00:37:56,194 --> 00:37:58,734
But stable coins, you know,

967
00:37:58,834 --> 00:38:01,514
it's a different type of bag people are trying to pump,

968
00:38:01,514 --> 00:38:07,414
which is like, you know, there are businesses that will profit handsomely off stablecoins.

969
00:38:07,614 --> 00:38:13,014
But I guess the better part of it is that at least the token itself doesn't pump.

970
00:38:14,514 --> 00:38:15,594
They want to capture the yield.

971
00:38:15,974 --> 00:38:20,674
Yeah, you're actually providing some utility, which is like, if people use your network, at least that's real usage.

972
00:38:20,894 --> 00:38:21,954
And, yeah, exactly.

973
00:38:22,334 --> 00:38:25,334
The reason I don't think it's fad is that it does provide real utility.

974
00:38:25,374 --> 00:38:26,814
It's like, hey, privacy is important.

975
00:38:27,174 --> 00:38:27,354
Yeah.

976
00:38:27,354 --> 00:38:31,094
So I thought that's what you're going to say.

977
00:38:31,514 --> 00:38:44,834
But I mean, certainly part of the engagement with AI and tech is around, you know, why not just use credit cards or credit cards 2.0 or the virtual debit card or whatever?

978
00:38:45,094 --> 00:38:46,334
Why not use stable coins?

979
00:38:47,514 --> 00:38:48,894
Why use Bitcoin versus those?

980
00:38:49,134 --> 00:38:53,554
And, you know, I gave a presentation last week.

981
00:38:53,774 --> 00:38:56,834
I mean, I talked about it in the last show because the last show was only a few days ago.

982
00:38:56,834 --> 00:39:00,054
But, you know, it tried to tease out why Bitcoin.

983
00:39:01,514 --> 00:39:06,194
And I think it's the best articulation to date that we've produced,

984
00:39:06,474 --> 00:39:09,674
but I think it needs to get stronger still.

985
00:39:10,074 --> 00:39:10,394
But anyway.

986
00:39:11,574 --> 00:39:13,274
Yeah, so what's your take, Deke?

987
00:39:13,354 --> 00:39:15,994
I mean, I think you had a good take in our chat,

988
00:39:16,094 --> 00:39:19,454
which is maybe there's a way to focus more on open source

989
00:39:19,454 --> 00:39:22,674
and we have an open payment network and an open identity system.

990
00:39:23,014 --> 00:39:26,494
Like, yeah, I mean, how, if you could wave a magic wand,

991
00:39:26,494 --> 00:39:32,774
would you change our approach to get more you know of um people from places like anthropic and

992
00:39:32,774 --> 00:39:38,894
other you know serious companies interested yeah i think using something with some open source

993
00:39:38,894 --> 00:39:45,254
framing can be helpful because it's at the core of what everything we touch or do or care about

994
00:39:45,254 --> 00:39:50,974
right it has some open source component to it and bitcoin is open source money and there's other

995
00:39:50,974 --> 00:39:56,474
people attempting to do open source monies that are not as credibly neutral as bitcoin but it

996
00:39:56,474 --> 00:39:59,954
But definitely Bitcoin is a private money that's not a private company, right?

997
00:40:00,774 --> 00:40:04,434
And I think, you know, how AI evolves.

998
00:40:04,654 --> 00:40:11,274
I mean, I think it's a public money, but that's a great topic itself.

999
00:40:11,994 --> 00:40:17,114
Which, to plug one show, if you guys never listened to my interview with Ben Ark from back in the day,

1000
00:40:17,494 --> 00:40:22,534
we go ad nauseum about this topic of Bitcoin is in fact a new form of political philosophy

1001
00:40:22,534 --> 00:40:25,254
because it is a commons which enables private property.

1002
00:40:25,254 --> 00:40:29,234
And it's extreme, like that to me is one of the biggest stories of Bitcoin is it's new.

1003
00:40:29,414 --> 00:40:31,294
It literally, we've never seen anything like this in history before.

1004
00:40:31,374 --> 00:40:35,394
It's elements of open source, elements of free market capitalism, but you need both.

1005
00:40:35,994 --> 00:40:40,834
I mean, I'm sure DK, you and I probably 100% agree on this particular topic.

1006
00:40:40,994 --> 00:40:47,054
But the reason I jumped on that is I've seen government or people who work for government

1007
00:40:47,054 --> 00:40:54,374
who are critics call Bitcoin private money and position it as like if it's not good for

1008
00:40:54,374 --> 00:40:55,134
the people.

1009
00:40:56,274 --> 00:40:58,514
The way they position it, it's private money

1010
00:40:58,514 --> 00:41:00,274
basically helping insiders

1011
00:41:00,274 --> 00:41:01,574
and not helping

1012
00:41:01,574 --> 00:41:04,354
the public good. Whereas public

1013
00:41:04,354 --> 00:41:05,854
money, like the US dollar,

1014
00:41:06,314 --> 00:41:08,314
is for the people, and

1015
00:41:08,314 --> 00:41:10,394
it's good for all people and doesn't have

1016
00:41:10,394 --> 00:41:11,274
these insiders.

1017
00:41:11,754 --> 00:41:13,954
That's how they flip it.

1018
00:41:16,094 --> 00:41:18,014
Exactly. Public private

1019
00:41:18,014 --> 00:41:20,074
redefined, we should go on that, but I do think one caveat

1020
00:41:20,074 --> 00:41:21,674
I should make in everything that I'm saying,

1021
00:41:21,814 --> 00:41:24,174
I'm not saying

1022
00:41:24,174 --> 00:41:29,074
by the way that bitcoin is a utopia and that there aren't scammy people involved in bitcoin

1023
00:41:29,074 --> 00:41:33,454
that there aren't insiders who do like none of this stuff is like completely obviously black and

1024
00:41:33,454 --> 00:41:37,774
white like there are of course you know people that will benefit more in the early days and this

1025
00:41:37,774 --> 00:41:40,894
is a much longer conversation but like i'm not saying oh anyone that touches bitcoin is good

1026
00:41:40,894 --> 00:41:45,834
anyone touches anything else is bad like there's always you know unsavory actors and save reactors

1027
00:41:45,834 --> 00:41:51,814
you mentioned insiders there are no insiders in bitcoin there may be insiders in how the fiat

1028
00:41:51,814 --> 00:41:58,554
whales. I still wouldn't call that an insider. Well, some people would. I mean, I understand

1029
00:41:58,554 --> 00:42:03,914
what you're saying, but like, yeah. But being an insider is kind of using inside information

1030
00:42:03,914 --> 00:42:10,674
and relationships to exploit and arbitrage, right? Yeah. But I think what I hear commonly from people

1031
00:42:10,674 --> 00:42:14,834
while I agree with you in principle is they say, oh, that's that thing where if you, you know,

1032
00:42:14,834 --> 00:42:21,074
whatever, you were either lucky or you were buying drugs on Silk Road in 20, you know, whatever,

1033
00:42:21,074 --> 00:42:27,674
14 or earlier, then you basically got huge bags and now you're like, whatever, like a

1034
00:42:27,674 --> 00:42:28,534
billionaire from this thing.

1035
00:42:28,614 --> 00:42:29,334
That doesn't seem fair.

1036
00:42:29,394 --> 00:42:33,774
I'm not saying that's correct, but that is a common narrative that I hear of the insider

1037
00:42:33,774 --> 00:42:34,074
piece.

1038
00:42:34,294 --> 00:42:39,854
I would just, yeah, I just caution using the term insider because it's, I think it implies

1039
00:42:39,854 --> 00:42:45,074
a little bit more of a shadowy super coder network.

1040
00:42:46,234 --> 00:42:48,794
You know, it suggests that we really have.

1041
00:42:49,974 --> 00:42:50,974
It's a public good.

1042
00:42:50,974 --> 00:42:54,894
it's open source, it's available for everybody to audit, but there's certainly people who are going

1043
00:42:54,894 --> 00:42:58,854
to take advantage of it with insider access to how the fiat

1044
00:42:58,854 --> 00:43:03,074
system wraps it. I think that's a fair question

1045
00:43:03,074 --> 00:43:04,434
to ask or concern to have.

1046
00:43:07,194 --> 00:43:10,854
Back at the topic of Bitcoin brand and stuff like that, I wanted to speak more

1047
00:43:10,854 --> 00:43:14,394
about a couple of recent experiences at Presidio Bitcoin.

1048
00:43:15,254 --> 00:43:19,034
I already spoke about Elon University students coming here

1049
00:43:19,034 --> 00:43:19,874
a few weeks ago.

1050
00:43:20,854 --> 00:43:22,954
Yesterday, students from

1051
00:43:22,954 --> 00:43:25,234
University of Chicago came here.

1052
00:43:25,674 --> 00:43:27,214
So it's so awesome to

1053
00:43:27,214 --> 00:43:28,974
engage young people

1054
00:43:28,974 --> 00:43:31,154
who are on the cusp of starting their own

1055
00:43:31,154 --> 00:43:33,174
careers and just seeing what's

1056
00:43:33,174 --> 00:43:35,034
on their mind and what are their questions, what are their hopes

1057
00:43:35,034 --> 00:43:37,014
and dreams, what are their concerns,

1058
00:43:37,294 --> 00:43:37,594
fears.

1059
00:43:39,434 --> 00:43:41,334
Chicago has a long history of

1060
00:43:41,334 --> 00:43:43,174
economics study, right?

1061
00:43:44,034 --> 00:43:45,054
I reckon. What does?

1062
00:43:45,814 --> 00:43:46,674
University of Chicago?

1063
00:43:46,674 --> 00:43:48,354
Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah, exactly.

1064
00:43:48,354 --> 00:43:49,954
Chicago School of Economics for a reason.

1065
00:43:50,394 --> 00:43:51,814
Okay, so there's that.

1066
00:43:52,754 --> 00:43:57,734
Also, I learned this after speaking to the students,

1067
00:43:57,874 --> 00:44:01,134
but this group of students yesterday from the University of Chicago

1068
00:44:01,134 --> 00:44:05,694
were doing a one-year program on digital assets.

1069
00:44:06,394 --> 00:44:06,454
Okay?

1070
00:44:07,334 --> 00:44:13,474
So here's what I find astonishing from these two.

1071
00:44:13,474 --> 00:44:16,134
well I'm actually unsurprised

1072
00:44:16,134 --> 00:44:18,094
but sad about these two

1073
00:44:18,094 --> 00:44:18,734
experiences

1074
00:44:18,734 --> 00:44:21,834
they

1075
00:44:21,834 --> 00:44:24,434
like none of them

1076
00:44:24,434 --> 00:44:26,434
saw any value in Bitcoin

1077
00:44:26,434 --> 00:44:28,374
most had not studied

1078
00:44:28,374 --> 00:44:30,414
Bitcoin and that's

1079
00:44:30,414 --> 00:44:30,794
why when I

1080
00:44:30,794 --> 00:44:34,294
I already was sad and then when I learned that they're actually in the

1081
00:44:34,294 --> 00:44:36,354
digital assets program at the

1082
00:44:36,354 --> 00:44:38,434
top tier university

1083
00:44:38,434 --> 00:44:40,134
and apparently

1084
00:44:40,134 --> 00:44:42,494
students are like cream of the crop

1085
00:44:42,494 --> 00:44:43,574
like 1600 SAT

1086
00:44:43,574 --> 00:44:44,794
and they went to the elite

1087
00:44:44,794 --> 00:44:46,074
like high schools

1088
00:44:46,074 --> 00:44:46,434
and everything

1089
00:44:46,434 --> 00:44:47,434
and you know

1090
00:44:47,434 --> 00:44:48,734
America's brightest

1091
00:44:48,734 --> 00:44:51,814
and you know

1092
00:44:51,814 --> 00:44:53,074
our best opportunity

1093
00:44:53,074 --> 00:44:53,714
and like

1094
00:44:53,714 --> 00:44:54,754
they're studying digital assets

1095
00:44:54,754 --> 00:44:55,414
and they didn't

1096
00:44:55,414 --> 00:44:56,054
they don't even know

1097
00:44:56,054 --> 00:44:56,674
anything about Bitcoin

1098
00:44:56,674 --> 00:44:58,314
and the sophistication

1099
00:44:58,314 --> 00:44:59,054
of their questions

1100
00:44:59,054 --> 00:45:01,694
are like beginner questions

1101
00:45:01,694 --> 00:45:02,434
and I'm not

1102
00:45:02,434 --> 00:45:03,914
calling them out

1103
00:45:03,914 --> 00:45:05,154
on their dumb questions

1104
00:45:05,154 --> 00:45:06,654
they're completely reasonable

1105
00:45:06,654 --> 00:45:17,408
they good questions and reasonable questions if you just learning so they not dumb questions It just that it like wow they asking

1106
00:45:17,769 --> 00:45:19,888
They really don't know much about it.

1107
00:45:20,368 --> 00:45:23,988
Did they have a lot of depth on some other aspect of digital assets?

1108
00:45:24,749 --> 00:45:25,648
I don't know.

1109
00:45:25,648 --> 00:45:28,849
I didn't learn until after I spoke to them that they were in the digital assets program.

1110
00:45:29,008 --> 00:45:30,648
I just thought it was a...

1111
00:45:30,648 --> 00:45:35,968
I mean, it was a collection of students in terms of coming from different disciplines.

1112
00:45:35,968 --> 00:45:40,968
So it wasn't like this is the computer science group or economics.

1113
00:45:40,968 --> 00:45:47,968
It was a cross-discipline set of students, but the one bond tying them together that

1114
00:45:47,968 --> 00:45:50,968
I learned after the fact was that they're all taking this one-year digital assets program,

1115
00:45:50,968 --> 00:45:53,968
which I can only guess is cover stablecoins.

1116
00:45:53,968 --> 00:45:54,968
Stablecoins?

1117
00:45:54,968 --> 00:45:55,968
Okay.

1118
00:45:55,968 --> 00:45:56,968
So it's a stablecoin coin.

1119
00:45:56,968 --> 00:46:01,968
Because both groups of students, like one of the top of mind questions is compliance,

1120
00:46:01,968 --> 00:46:02,968
like money laundering.

1121
00:46:02,968 --> 00:46:04,968
How do you catch the bad guys?

1122
00:46:04,968 --> 00:46:08,689
And I think it's very notable.

1123
00:46:09,428 --> 00:46:11,209
Again, it's a very reasonable question.

1124
00:46:11,468 --> 00:46:13,108
It's a good discussion to have.

1125
00:46:14,868 --> 00:46:19,948
And public policy matters and catching criminals matters.

1126
00:46:20,368 --> 00:46:22,648
So it's not, again, not a dumb question.

1127
00:46:22,648 --> 00:46:26,269
It's just notable to me that that's top of mind for them.

1128
00:46:26,648 --> 00:46:33,289
And not like freedom, financial access, geopolitics,

1129
00:46:33,289 --> 00:46:35,269
like neutral money for the world

1130
00:46:35,269 --> 00:46:37,669
and like the immense power

1131
00:46:37,669 --> 00:46:38,948
the US has with the US dollar.

1132
00:46:39,269 --> 00:46:40,628
None of that is top of mind for them.

1133
00:46:40,908 --> 00:46:42,349
Well, to be clear,

1134
00:46:42,829 --> 00:46:43,749
that is not actually,

1135
00:46:43,888 --> 00:46:45,549
sadly, it's not at all surprising to me.

1136
00:46:45,908 --> 00:46:46,988
I'm going to give another shout out

1137
00:46:46,988 --> 00:46:47,769
mentioned in the show

1138
00:46:47,769 --> 00:46:49,029
maybe a year ago,

1139
00:46:49,269 --> 00:46:51,508
but Kreis' essay,

1140
00:46:51,709 --> 00:46:52,948
I guess now he's out publicly,

1141
00:46:53,069 --> 00:46:53,908
Jesse Meyer's essay,

1142
00:46:54,428 --> 00:46:55,988
Why the Yuppie Elite Dismissed Bitcoin.

1143
00:46:56,169 --> 00:46:57,169
It is so spot on.

1144
00:46:57,249 --> 00:46:58,148
If you haven't read this essay,

1145
00:46:58,229 --> 00:46:58,809
read this essay.

1146
00:46:58,868 --> 00:46:59,508
It's very simple.

1147
00:46:59,908 --> 00:47:00,868
The idea is there's an access

1148
00:47:00,868 --> 00:47:01,849
to grok Bitcoin.

1149
00:47:01,849 --> 00:47:03,988
You need to be intelligent access.

1150
00:47:04,269 --> 00:47:04,928
You need to be intelligent.

1151
00:47:05,049 --> 00:47:08,089
There's a lot of difficult ideas to grok.

1152
00:47:08,368 --> 00:47:09,789
But then there's another access, which is,

1153
00:47:10,569 --> 00:47:11,968
has the system benefit?

1154
00:47:12,128 --> 00:47:13,229
Do you trust the system?

1155
00:47:13,789 --> 00:47:15,428
And for people that went to the University of Chicago

1156
00:47:15,428 --> 00:47:16,508
or some of these elite schools,

1157
00:47:16,608 --> 00:47:17,928
the system works just fine for them.

1158
00:47:18,089 --> 00:47:20,569
And so the system is working really well.

1159
00:47:20,589 --> 00:47:21,229
People at Google.

1160
00:47:21,549 --> 00:47:21,849
Yes.

1161
00:47:22,349 --> 00:47:24,809
And so that is why they're not questioning

1162
00:47:24,809 --> 00:47:26,408
because they're like, well, I look around me

1163
00:47:26,408 --> 00:47:28,349
and me and my friends are all balling out.

1164
00:47:28,729 --> 00:47:29,888
What are you talking about, Steve?

1165
00:47:29,888 --> 00:47:57,868
Now, the thing that I do think should get those kids interested, like maybe they're never going to care about financial freedom for someone in, you know, whatever, India or something like that. But what should get them excited, and I think the real opportunity, and increasingly, I know I just have my Alex Jones rant, but I'm trying to be more equanimous and look at the world as it is and not just get angry, but like figure out this actual solution, is what these people do like is making money, getting more power and prestige. That's why they're at a school like that.

1166
00:47:57,868 --> 00:48:05,008
And so if we can come and say the real opportunity for the next GDP growth of the world is

1167
00:48:05,008 --> 00:48:08,709
agentic commerce online and agentic commerce is best served by Bitcoin.

1168
00:48:08,908 --> 00:48:14,229
And oh, by the way, you want to get NYC and you want to whatever, be the next guy on the

1169
00:48:14,229 --> 00:48:16,729
cover of this thing, do agentic commerce.

1170
00:48:17,189 --> 00:48:18,349
And this is the only way you can do that.

1171
00:48:18,488 --> 00:48:22,029
I think those kinds of solutions of what new markets, what new opportunities.

1172
00:48:22,209 --> 00:48:24,269
And I say this in a way that sounds very dismissive.

1173
00:48:24,269 --> 00:48:27,388
And I should probably say I don't mean to be dismissive.

1174
00:48:27,388 --> 00:48:30,128
it's very natural that people want to be part of something.

1175
00:48:30,209 --> 00:48:30,928
I do. We all do.

1176
00:48:31,349 --> 00:48:34,089
Part of something successful and something that is exciting

1177
00:48:34,089 --> 00:48:35,289
and growing and changing the world.

1178
00:48:36,069 --> 00:48:38,269
So I think the more we can focus on the new markets

1179
00:48:38,269 --> 00:48:40,049
this opens up, the better for people like that.

1180
00:48:40,988 --> 00:48:41,089
Yeah.

1181
00:48:41,488 --> 00:48:42,309
So I just,

1182
00:48:42,868 --> 00:48:45,789
these two experiences

1183
00:48:45,789 --> 00:48:47,589
I don't think are one-offs.

1184
00:48:47,589 --> 00:48:50,008
I think they are representative samples.

1185
00:48:50,329 --> 00:48:51,689
I think if we had

1186
00:48:51,689 --> 00:48:53,789
20 more university

1187
00:48:53,789 --> 00:48:55,468
sets of, or groups of

1188
00:48:55,468 --> 00:49:01,229
university students come here, we'd see the same thing. Which is why I'm not surprised, but sad.

1189
00:49:01,229 --> 00:49:08,329
And so it just makes me wonder, what will it take for students and their professors and the

1190
00:49:08,329 --> 00:49:18,329
academic environments to prioritize this or to be curious? So from an individual student

1191
00:49:18,329 --> 00:49:23,569
standpoint, what will it take for them to become curious and take the time to study and learn?

1192
00:49:23,569 --> 00:49:52,468
And then from an overall program standpoint, to prioritize it. Maybe it'll take Bitcoin becoming a trillion dollar asset class. Maybe it'll take there to be 500 million Bitcoin owners around the world. Maybe it'll take United States senators and the president to endorse it. Maybe it'll take major financial companies like BlackRock to produce products for it.

1193
00:49:52,468 --> 00:50:01,049
oh wait we already achieved all those so like what what steve's been practicing that little

1194
00:50:01,049 --> 00:50:06,209
monologue right there i was wondering where you were going with that 10 times 10 times last night

1195
00:50:06,209 --> 00:50:14,709
no but i mean like so it does make me what what what does it take does it have to reach 10 trillion

1196
00:50:14,709 --> 00:50:18,809
hundred trillion. I mean, I think undoubtedly if people

1197
00:50:18,809 --> 00:50:22,769
are paying Bitcoin for their AI agent

1198
00:50:22,769 --> 00:50:26,789
or for their coffee or whatever, if humans have a

1199
00:50:26,789 --> 00:50:29,529
daily touchpoint with Bitcoin, then all of a sudden they're going to care.

1200
00:50:29,888 --> 00:50:34,888
I still don't see why we have to get to that point. Let's say we live in a world where that never

1201
00:50:34,888 --> 00:50:39,069
occurs and it's only store of value, but it becomes

1202
00:50:39,069 --> 00:50:42,769
like the global reserve currency and what

1203
00:50:42,769 --> 00:50:44,888
most people in Bitcoin believe will occur,

1204
00:50:45,369 --> 00:50:47,249
at what point along the trajectory

1205
00:50:47,249 --> 00:50:49,108
to it is cemented

1206
00:50:49,108 --> 00:50:50,689
as the global reserve currency,

1207
00:50:51,189 --> 00:50:52,029
do people become,

1208
00:50:52,988 --> 00:50:54,709
smart people at universities

1209
00:50:54,709 --> 00:50:57,069
become curious? I don't know.

1210
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:58,529
I mean, to me,

1211
00:50:59,408 --> 00:51:01,049
as I'm rethinking

1212
00:51:01,049 --> 00:51:02,988
this, the opportunity to reach people

1213
00:51:02,988 --> 00:51:04,729
like that today, I do think the agentic commerce

1214
00:51:04,729 --> 00:51:07,088
and tech disruption opportunity is interesting.

1215
00:51:07,569 --> 00:51:08,849
But frankly, it's the

1216
00:51:08,849 --> 00:51:10,869
sailor pitch. I think if you go to them and you

1217
00:51:10,869 --> 00:51:15,428
say, hey, kids, you see all the bond market out there? See what that's doing? What if I told you

1218
00:51:15,428 --> 00:51:21,349
you get 11.5%? They say, 11.5%. That's spicy. How do you do that? And you say, oh, you know,

1219
00:51:21,388 --> 00:51:24,869
there's this thing. It's, oh, crypto scan. And they see, like, honestly, what's going to happen,

1220
00:51:24,928 --> 00:51:27,488
I think, is over the next couple of years, the other is going to keep making all those payments.

1221
00:51:27,488 --> 00:51:31,608
He's going to continue. Like, if he continues to pay two to three X what everyone else in fixed

1222
00:51:31,608 --> 00:51:36,508
income can pay, then eventually they're going to start to say, how is he doing this? I disagree,

1223
00:51:36,508 --> 00:51:36,928
though because

1224
00:51:36,928 --> 00:51:38,189
for it to work

1225
00:51:38,189 --> 00:51:39,508
you have to believe

1226
00:51:39,508 --> 00:51:40,448
Bitcoin will continue

1227
00:51:40,448 --> 00:51:41,249
to appreciate

1228
00:51:41,249 --> 00:51:42,408
at least 11%

1229
00:51:42,408 --> 00:51:43,169
and like for it to work

1230
00:51:43,169 --> 00:51:43,789
the way strategy

1231
00:51:43,789 --> 00:51:45,269
thinks it'll appreciate

1232
00:51:45,269 --> 00:51:46,549
20 to 30%

1233
00:51:46,549 --> 00:51:47,948
it'll be no problem

1234
00:51:47,948 --> 00:51:48,908
paying off the stretch

1235
00:51:48,908 --> 00:51:49,869
and they'll profit

1236
00:51:49,869 --> 00:51:50,448
handsomely

1237
00:51:50,448 --> 00:51:51,988
so MSTR goes up

1238
00:51:51,988 --> 00:51:52,388
as well

1239
00:51:52,388 --> 00:51:53,648
that's probably

1240
00:51:53,648 --> 00:51:54,709
what we believe too

1241
00:51:54,709 --> 00:51:55,508
but if you're

1242
00:51:55,508 --> 00:51:56,508
but if you simply

1243
00:51:56,508 --> 00:51:57,468
don't even see the value

1244
00:51:57,468 --> 00:51:57,769
of Bitcoin

1245
00:51:57,769 --> 00:51:58,408
or get the point

1246
00:51:58,408 --> 00:51:59,549
or you're starting at zero

1247
00:51:59,549 --> 00:52:00,948
then you'll ask

1248
00:52:00,948 --> 00:52:01,669
how does it pay

1249
00:52:01,669 --> 00:52:02,408
I mean anytime

1250
00:52:02,408 --> 00:52:03,128
something offers

1251
00:52:03,128 --> 00:52:03,588
a lot of yield

1252
00:52:03,588 --> 00:52:04,148
you gotta be like

1253
00:52:04,148 --> 00:52:05,529
ask how does it

1254
00:52:05,529 --> 00:52:06,249
exactly

1255
00:52:06,508 --> 00:52:11,329
Yeah, but the way it does is you have to believe Bitcoin's going to appreciate.

1256
00:52:12,369 --> 00:52:13,769
Actually, DK has a good point.

1257
00:52:13,829 --> 00:52:14,669
A lot of people are going to be doing it.

1258
00:52:14,669 --> 00:52:20,309
I mean, Max and I had a talk with somebody who, you know, savvy individual came by PB,

1259
00:52:20,529 --> 00:52:23,729
and he was like, so how are you guys getting yield on your Bitcoin?

1260
00:52:24,128 --> 00:52:24,988
And we're just like, what?

1261
00:52:25,309 --> 00:52:25,508
No.

1262
00:52:25,749 --> 00:52:26,069
Yeah.

1263
00:52:26,849 --> 00:52:33,988
So I actually, I don't think that like students would be persuaded or anyone.

1264
00:52:33,988 --> 00:52:35,468
I mean, not just students.

1265
00:52:35,468 --> 00:52:42,789
I have a set of friends who don't believe in Bitcoin.

1266
00:52:43,529 --> 00:52:45,829
They love to make money, though.

1267
00:52:45,908 --> 00:52:47,749
So they're always chasing yields.

1268
00:52:49,428 --> 00:52:55,408
This one friend even was going to maybe take their stock and park it in Kraken.

1269
00:52:55,588 --> 00:53:02,169
Because apparently, you can now take traditional stock and put it in a crypto casino.

1270
00:53:02,169 --> 00:53:05,069
And you get 2% back or something.

1271
00:53:05,069 --> 00:53:10,108
So he is asking me if, like, I thought that was a scam.

1272
00:53:10,269 --> 00:53:17,888
And I'm like, well, out of all the crypto casinos, I like and trust Kraken, like Jesse Powell and Kraken probably the most.

1273
00:53:18,189 --> 00:53:20,369
But it's still a crypto casino.

1274
00:53:21,108 --> 00:53:28,408
And I'm like, well, I would deeply study what it means if they go under what happens to your stock certificates.

1275
00:53:28,888 --> 00:53:32,049
What kind of, like, U.S. protections are there for that?

1276
00:53:32,049 --> 00:53:34,448
If there's solid protections, maybe it's no risk.

1277
00:53:34,448 --> 00:53:38,829
But if there's not, it's like, I wouldn't do that for 2%, even just the hassle.

1278
00:53:39,369 --> 00:53:46,249
Anyway, I'm like, if you're willing to do this, why don't you put your money in, or some money in stretch?

1279
00:53:46,849 --> 00:53:52,988
And then we went through this whole, like, he doesn't believe in Bitcoin, and he's like, he just thinks it's a scam.

1280
00:53:53,689 --> 00:53:57,148
So, and if, yeah, I mean, it will, I would not call it a scam.

1281
00:53:57,249 --> 00:54:02,849
It will fail, though, if Bitcoin goes to zero long term.

1282
00:54:02,849 --> 00:54:03,408
Totally.

1283
00:54:03,408 --> 00:54:10,029
But in the meantime, I mean, yes, like the more Bitcoin price rises, which is a function ultimately of adoption.

1284
00:54:10,029 --> 00:54:12,729
So all the things we're excited about, that's all necessary.

1285
00:54:12,849 --> 00:54:16,269
But in the meantime, you know, all we talked about this last week, all of the buying.

1286
00:54:16,408 --> 00:54:22,289
I mean, one of the major bids on Bitcoin was, in fact, you know, several thousand a day coming from MicroStrategy from selling stretch.

1287
00:54:22,289 --> 00:54:23,829
So they sell whatever $200 million.

1288
00:54:24,108 --> 00:54:30,888
They just turn around, buy more Bitcoin with that, which, you know, and I understand for someone listening to this, like that sounds like a pyramid scheme.

1289
00:54:30,888 --> 00:54:34,008
And it's like, well, they all are.

1290
00:54:34,769 --> 00:54:35,508
So it's the dollar.

1291
00:54:35,789 --> 00:54:37,529
But as long as you believe Bitcoin's not going to zero,

1292
00:54:37,608 --> 00:54:38,648
as long as you believe in the long run,

1293
00:54:38,709 --> 00:54:39,849
the adoption grows over that,

1294
00:54:39,988 --> 00:54:41,088
then you're gonna be fine.

1295
00:54:41,648 --> 00:54:43,928
But I think my broader point is

1296
00:54:43,928 --> 00:54:46,569
for people at a place like the University of Chicago

1297
00:54:46,569 --> 00:54:48,669
or whatever, some of these elite schools

1298
00:54:48,669 --> 00:54:50,488
or people that want jobs in finance, right?

1299
00:54:50,888 --> 00:54:52,289
If people want jobs in finance,

1300
00:54:52,448 --> 00:54:54,169
maybe they don't get the gold bug narrative.

1301
00:54:54,309 --> 00:54:55,968
Maybe they don't question why the system

1302
00:54:55,968 --> 00:54:57,968
needs to have a neutral reserve currency,

1303
00:54:58,029 --> 00:54:58,588
all these things.

1304
00:54:58,588 --> 00:55:00,809
But if they see one product in the market

1305
00:55:00,809 --> 00:55:02,749
that is just like an economic black hole

1306
00:55:02,749 --> 00:55:03,928
and all of a sudden,

1307
00:55:04,369 --> 00:55:07,428
all private credit is just flooding

1308
00:55:07,428 --> 00:55:08,428
to this one instrument

1309
00:55:08,428 --> 00:55:09,789
that's paying two to three X

1310
00:55:09,789 --> 00:55:10,269
and they're like,

1311
00:55:10,448 --> 00:55:12,468
eventually, if it doesn't fail,

1312
00:55:12,829 --> 00:55:14,108
eventually they'll come and say,

1313
00:55:14,269 --> 00:55:15,588
huh, why is that?

1314
00:55:15,669 --> 00:55:17,669
Maybe, but Bitcoin's like,

1315
00:55:18,209 --> 00:55:19,249
it's hit two trillion,

1316
00:55:19,809 --> 00:55:20,729
it's close to,

1317
00:55:20,869 --> 00:55:21,508
I don't even know what it is,

1318
00:55:21,608 --> 00:55:22,908
but you know, it's close to two trillion

1319
00:55:22,908 --> 00:55:25,869
and that hasn't,

1320
00:55:26,249 --> 00:55:28,948
I mean, that's a notable achievement, right?

1321
00:55:28,948 --> 00:55:32,749
But that hasn't created curiosity.

1322
00:55:33,269 --> 00:55:35,189
In the popular conversation now

1323
00:55:35,189 --> 00:55:37,088
compared to what it may have been,

1324
00:55:37,148 --> 00:55:38,928
you know, five years ago or 10 years ago, right?

1325
00:55:39,128 --> 00:55:42,029
Like, so I'd say the conversation is making progress.

1326
00:55:42,749 --> 00:55:44,508
I definitely agree overall.

1327
00:55:45,088 --> 00:55:47,789
But in speaking to these students,

1328
00:55:47,988 --> 00:55:50,428
and again, I believe they're representative

1329
00:55:50,428 --> 00:55:52,829
of like general population of students,

1330
00:55:53,169 --> 00:55:54,569
that segment of people,

1331
00:55:56,428 --> 00:55:58,709
the conversation felt like

1332
00:55:58,948 --> 00:56:01,069
2013.

1333
00:56:02,448 --> 00:56:03,669
Level of awareness,

1334
00:56:04,769 --> 00:56:05,289
curiosity,

1335
00:56:05,928 --> 00:56:07,769
excitement, and

1336
00:56:07,769 --> 00:56:09,789
sophistication of questions.

1337
00:56:09,849 --> 00:56:11,029
Our AI conversation, too.

1338
00:56:11,209 --> 00:56:13,628
That was a little bit more advanced, but the questions

1339
00:56:13,628 --> 00:56:15,448
we were getting asked were like, what about ESG

1340
00:56:15,448 --> 00:56:16,349
and mining?

1341
00:56:17,388 --> 00:56:18,948
This stuff's been put for a decade.

1342
00:56:19,189 --> 00:56:21,209
Which is far more concerning than whether they're

1343
00:56:21,209 --> 00:56:22,108
Bitcoiners or not.

1344
00:56:23,709 --> 00:56:24,709
Yesterday's group of students,

1345
00:56:24,709 --> 00:56:26,789
it was exclusively about

1346
00:56:26,789 --> 00:56:28,729
Bitcoin. I said I'd be happy

1347
00:56:28,729 --> 00:56:30,829
answer questions about career, AI, whatever they want to,

1348
00:56:30,888 --> 00:56:32,529
but all their questions were about Bitcoin.

1349
00:56:33,908 --> 00:56:35,689
So we didn't get an AI, but I

1350
00:56:35,689 --> 00:56:40,729
there's a little bit of, I don't know, I gave

1351
00:56:40,729 --> 00:56:44,729
an Agenda Commerce example on one of my Bitcoin answers

1352
00:56:44,729 --> 00:56:48,648
and you could just see that they had no idea what I was talking about or that it was

1353
00:56:48,648 --> 00:56:52,648
kind of like total sci-fi. Really? So I get the sense

1354
00:56:52,648 --> 00:56:56,468
that their skill set, curiosity,

1355
00:56:56,468 --> 00:56:58,128
and time spent on AI tools

1356
00:56:58,128 --> 00:57:00,029
was probably similar to the other student group,

1357
00:57:00,508 --> 00:57:02,108
which that is even more,

1358
00:57:02,249 --> 00:57:03,888
that is very concerning.

1359
00:57:04,849 --> 00:57:07,729
Because maybe they don't invest in Bitcoin early enough

1360
00:57:07,729 --> 00:57:09,749
or they don't get it until 10 years too late or whatever,

1361
00:57:09,928 --> 00:57:10,608
but whatever.

1362
00:57:11,269 --> 00:57:14,289
But if they don't get on the AI train

1363
00:57:14,289 --> 00:57:16,189
and learn how to use these tools,

1364
00:57:16,189 --> 00:57:18,488
they are going to be suffering in the job market.

1365
00:57:18,948 --> 00:57:20,588
And like soon, like now,

1366
00:57:20,948 --> 00:57:23,508
when they graduate over the next few years.

1367
00:57:24,388 --> 00:57:25,069
That's crazy.

1368
00:57:25,069 --> 00:57:31,729
The number one piece of advice to students is get on the AI train and spend a lot of time on these tools to level up.

1369
00:57:31,749 --> 00:57:34,349
Are they not even using LLMs for their homework and stuff?

1370
00:57:34,588 --> 00:57:35,249
I don't know.

1371
00:57:35,829 --> 00:57:36,908
I mean, I didn't talk to them about AI.

1372
00:57:37,529 --> 00:57:38,249
That's shocking.

1373
00:57:38,269 --> 00:57:39,749
Only the previous group.

1374
00:57:39,749 --> 00:57:48,888
I think a lot of it, though, you've got to look at the incentives of a university professor who's probably highly influencing the kinds of things that they spend their time.

1375
00:57:48,888 --> 00:57:54,448
they don't the university professor doesn't get a lot of credit for finding stuff early or like

1376
00:57:54,448 --> 00:57:59,008
being early to new technology or really getting into the weeds of the details of it right they

1377
00:57:59,008 --> 00:58:05,329
sort of they're a little bit more historical or backward looking so i'm not here to defend that

1378
00:58:05,329 --> 00:58:10,349
position but i'm just saying i think that context is probably why it results in the way it does and

1379
00:58:10,349 --> 00:58:16,008
so i think there's a couple ways to think about how you fix that and it's mostly messages that

1380
00:58:16,008 --> 00:58:21,988
get shared outside of the core system so i think you know having a podcast is one way to share

1381
00:58:21,988 --> 00:58:28,729
messages outside of the kind of you know the hallowed halls of the university and then i think

1382
00:58:28,729 --> 00:58:36,549
also just encountering bitcoin in the real world is another big way to get people curious about it

1383
00:58:36,549 --> 00:58:42,029
and they might start like if they started seeing it in all of their favorite applications like you

1384
00:58:42,029 --> 00:58:45,569
They're using TikTok or they're buying a domain on human or something.

1385
00:58:46,529 --> 00:58:49,148
Then they start asking the professor, well, what about Bitcoin?

1386
00:58:49,329 --> 00:58:52,189
Then the professor kind of has to figure it out and come up with an answer.

1387
00:58:52,669 --> 00:59:03,608
So I almost feel like the ideas have to be incepted from outside the system and kind of work their way back because just of how the incentives of a traditional university work.

1388
00:59:03,608 --> 00:59:09,588
I want to mention something that I think ties into Nick a little bit and MDK and stuff we talked about with him.

1389
00:59:09,689 --> 00:59:09,968
All right.

1390
00:59:10,088 --> 00:59:10,669
There we go.

1391
00:59:10,968 --> 00:59:11,988
Nine straight episodes.

1392
00:59:12,029 --> 00:59:15,189
I know, but it's not just him specifically.

1393
00:59:15,549 --> 00:59:17,289
You know, remember we talked a few months ago

1394
00:59:17,289 --> 00:59:19,669
about this idea of can you enable,

1395
00:59:20,029 --> 00:59:21,329
you know, the kids in class,

1396
00:59:21,388 --> 00:59:22,549
like most kids, I think, sadly,

1397
00:59:22,669 --> 00:59:23,349
we would argue at school

1398
00:59:23,349 --> 00:59:24,809
are probably just wasting their time at this point.

1399
00:59:25,108 --> 00:59:27,189
But like the smart kids that maybe, you know,

1400
00:59:28,108 --> 00:59:28,869
are just sitting there

1401
00:59:28,869 --> 00:59:30,189
and they understand how Claude works

1402
00:59:30,189 --> 00:59:31,088
and they're making businesses,

1403
00:59:31,269 --> 00:59:33,108
but they can't register for a bank account or credit card

1404
00:59:33,108 --> 00:59:33,789
because they're 16.

1405
00:59:34,269 --> 00:59:36,729
Like, Bitcoin serves a real need for them.

1406
00:59:37,309 --> 00:59:38,689
I saw Anjali show me,

1407
00:59:39,069 --> 00:59:40,269
I don't remember who this was,

1408
00:59:40,329 --> 00:59:41,968
but someone had the idea for a school.

1409
00:59:42,029 --> 00:59:45,229
where they guaranteed you would make a million dollars

1410
00:59:45,229 --> 00:59:46,809
by the time you graduate,

1411
00:59:46,948 --> 00:59:48,448
which that sounds a little scammy.

1412
00:59:48,749 --> 00:59:49,829
And it was extremely expensive,

1413
00:59:50,148 --> 00:59:52,349
like clearly geared towards high-end tech people.

1414
00:59:52,869 --> 00:59:54,849
But the point is, I think there's something-

1415
00:59:54,849 --> 00:59:55,388
A million dollar tuition.

1416
00:59:56,008 --> 00:59:57,108
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

1417
00:59:57,569 --> 00:59:59,769
Buy my course, you'll make a million dollars,

1418
00:59:59,849 --> 01:00:00,749
but first pay me 10.

1419
01:00:02,189 --> 01:00:04,529
So, you know, whatever, dropping the specifics of that.

1420
01:00:04,588 --> 01:00:06,108
But I thought the idea was really cool

1421
01:00:06,108 --> 01:00:07,189
is like instead of wasting time

1422
01:00:07,189 --> 01:00:08,968
and a bunch of stuff that you're never actually going to use,

1423
01:00:09,269 --> 01:00:11,008
the idea was you get one-on-one coaching,

1424
01:00:11,008 --> 01:00:14,749
mentorship or whatever to like, all right, we're going to help you test, create business ideas,

1425
01:00:14,849 --> 01:00:18,209
test business ideas, learn to use the tools where you can go and build these businesses,

1426
01:00:18,408 --> 01:00:23,249
iterate quickly. And, you know, doing that as a young person, basically focusing on helping people

1427
01:00:23,249 --> 01:00:27,789
become entrepreneurs. And, you know, that's a super high touch expensive version. But I do think

1428
01:00:27,789 --> 01:00:31,928
this ties into our idea that we discussed with Nick, what things like Bitcoin, frankly,

1429
01:00:32,229 --> 01:00:37,008
AI is democratizing technology and able, which is like, you know, instead of again,

1430
01:00:37,008 --> 01:00:38,088
instead of just getting mad of like,

1431
01:00:38,148 --> 01:00:39,388
oh, it sucks that, you know,

1432
01:00:39,689 --> 01:00:41,148
these kids are paying huge tuition,

1433
01:00:41,309 --> 01:00:42,508
getting scammed and they're not learning.

1434
01:00:42,829 --> 01:00:45,388
It's like, okay, that's, the old world is dying.

1435
01:00:45,669 --> 01:00:47,809
Instead of getting angry and shaking our fist,

1436
01:00:48,269 --> 01:00:50,468
how do we instead get these kids,

1437
01:00:50,689 --> 01:00:52,549
align the incentives such that

1438
01:00:52,549 --> 01:00:54,488
maybe you don't go to school or you are in school,

1439
01:00:54,968 --> 01:00:56,069
you know, your goal is,

1440
01:00:56,189 --> 01:00:58,049
how do I build something that people actually use?

1441
01:00:58,369 --> 01:01:01,448
And then my quote unquote job stems from that.

1442
01:01:02,148 --> 01:01:04,269
I think you need some sort of credibility layer,

1443
01:01:04,769 --> 01:01:06,249
you know, in that some sort of brand.

1444
01:01:06,249 --> 01:01:28,829
Yeah. Um, because I, I, oh, go ahead. I was just gonna say, I think, I think to get people to transit, I think somebody, I've heard it quoted that, you know, to raise a kid with all the school and everything, it can be like 700 K to a million dollars. I don't know if that's, I don't know, you know, for like 20 years of, I don't know. Does that sound about right? Or?

1445
01:01:29,729 --> 01:01:34,928
Well, if you, if someone sends their kids to private schools, that's a lot.

1446
01:01:34,928 --> 01:01:57,269
So think about all those dollars that are going out that are probably mostly being wasted. And if you could take that as like seed capital for your startup that you start when you're 12 years old or something, you could just imagine an entirely different path, but it's just so different. People have to rethink all their prior assumptions about what is education? What does it mean to be educated?

1447
01:01:57,269 --> 01:02:11,988
So how would you do that? If you were trying to, for this sort of navigational or this transitional phase, navigate it with something that gets kids being more entrepreneurial, but also helps with that, whatever, the seal of acceptability.

1448
01:02:12,309 --> 01:02:26,968
I guess the kids would love it, but the parents would hate it. I think the main problem to solve is that parents say like, oh, this is a reasonable thing to do with your life instead of like, oh, you're going to go mess around with some AI and friends or something.

1449
01:02:27,269 --> 01:02:32,209
I just wanted to address before the comments scroll off the screen.

1450
01:02:32,849 --> 01:02:33,689
Let's see.

1451
01:02:34,189 --> 01:02:39,488
Deanna says, Steve, offer an online workshop to the school explaining all this.

1452
01:02:39,968 --> 01:02:44,628
But I'll say no to that.

1453
01:02:44,689 --> 01:02:50,389
And the reason why is there is ample content that people have created already.

1454
01:02:50,389 --> 01:02:51,988
So it's not like a lack of content.

1455
01:02:52,148 --> 01:02:55,068
And if Max were to do this or me or DK or whatever,

1456
01:02:55,068 --> 01:03:00,829
I'm sure we put together a thoughtful, good course or class or whatever, but so have others.

1457
01:03:02,068 --> 01:03:04,749
And that's not solving the problem.

1458
01:03:04,909 --> 01:03:14,968
I mean, to the uninitiated Bitcoin, one of the challenges to learn is that because there's no central authority, you don't know who to trust, what to believe.

1459
01:03:15,068 --> 01:03:18,428
You don't just go to like Bitcoin.com and like...

1460
01:03:18,428 --> 01:03:20,048
Bitcoin.com was in fact a scam.

1461
01:03:20,249 --> 01:03:23,669
It literally was telling people to not buy Bitcoin.

1462
01:03:23,669 --> 01:03:24,409
That's another shit.

1463
01:03:24,409 --> 01:03:26,789
So you don't know where to go.

1464
01:03:27,369 --> 01:03:31,029
So sure, some people might look at one of our content,

1465
01:03:31,229 --> 01:03:34,669
but anyway, there needs to be an alternative solution.

1466
01:03:36,428 --> 01:03:39,309
And let's see, then Jdube.

1467
01:03:39,488 --> 01:03:40,088
Jdube?

1468
01:03:40,329 --> 01:03:41,488
Oh, no, sorry, Jdube.

1469
01:03:41,488 --> 01:03:42,008
Jdube.

1470
01:03:42,829 --> 01:03:43,749
Jdube.

1471
01:03:43,749 --> 01:03:44,189
Jdube.

1472
01:03:45,189 --> 01:03:48,669
Says, I don't think anyone really wants to pay Bitcoin to strangers,

1473
01:03:48,849 --> 01:03:49,909
especially to bots.

1474
01:03:50,108 --> 01:03:53,729
And follows up with, you can pay strangers and bots with fiat

1475
01:03:53,729 --> 01:03:56,988
because it's a joke currency that isn't a good investment to hold.

1476
01:03:57,329 --> 01:03:59,548
So that is a very common sentiment, I think.

1477
01:04:00,269 --> 01:04:02,189
We've talked a little bit before on the show about it,

1478
01:04:02,309 --> 01:04:05,169
but I think it doesn't make sense to me.

1479
01:04:05,548 --> 01:04:08,369
Because if fiat is a joke currency,

1480
01:04:08,608 --> 01:04:10,389
if I'm selling something to someone,

1481
01:04:10,468 --> 01:04:12,249
why do I want to receive the joke currency

1482
01:04:12,249 --> 01:04:14,329
versus the better currency?

1483
01:04:14,329 --> 01:04:17,849
Well, to be fair, because you have to pay your whatever,

1484
01:04:18,108 --> 01:04:19,209
your suppliers the next day.

1485
01:04:19,669 --> 01:04:22,948
But think playing this out long term.

1486
01:04:22,948 --> 01:04:41,008
I mean, I'm not saying, obviously it doesn't, that's not the case today because people don't generally use Bitcoin to pay. I'm saying that if you hold the view that dollars are a joke currency and Bitcoin is something you want, then sellers, when they're selling something, want the currency that is more desirable.

1487
01:04:41,008 --> 01:04:41,289
Right.

1488
01:04:41,409 --> 01:04:41,568
Right.

1489
01:04:41,968 --> 01:04:43,269
And if I'm selling something,

1490
01:04:43,508 --> 01:04:46,648
so then I might offer an incentive

1491
01:04:46,648 --> 01:04:48,529
for you to pay me in the better currency,

1492
01:04:48,529 --> 01:04:51,269
or I might not sell you my product or service

1493
01:04:51,269 --> 01:04:52,709
if you don't pay me in the better currency.

1494
01:04:52,869 --> 01:04:55,229
So I do think that dynamic will play out over time.

1495
01:04:56,029 --> 01:04:57,809
But you need volatility in the meantime.

1496
01:04:58,068 --> 01:04:59,588
And I think something people have to remember is

1497
01:04:59,588 --> 01:05:02,329
Bitcoin, you know, you would never going to go

1498
01:05:02,329 --> 01:05:04,309
from like a thing dropped on the internet

1499
01:05:04,309 --> 01:05:07,648
to global reserve currency in one giant straight shot.

1500
01:05:07,889 --> 01:05:09,669
And so I think that, remember,

1501
01:05:09,669 --> 01:05:12,229
we're still in the store of value early phase

1502
01:05:12,229 --> 01:05:13,988
in my opinion, which is why I keep coming back

1503
01:05:13,988 --> 01:05:15,329
to the micro strategy thing is like,

1504
01:05:15,648 --> 01:05:17,948
people want stability,

1505
01:05:18,229 --> 01:05:19,988
they want yield. One day, everything you're saying

1506
01:05:19,988 --> 01:05:21,529
will happen, I believe, right?

1507
01:05:21,648 --> 01:05:23,329
But, I mean, that could be decades.

1508
01:05:23,409 --> 01:05:25,249
I agree, but it's not for the reasons stated there.

1509
01:05:25,409 --> 01:05:26,689
It's not because it's a joke.

1510
01:05:26,928 --> 01:05:29,849
I mean, the thinking there, or my interpretation

1511
01:05:29,849 --> 01:05:31,889
of that is like, Bitcoin's

1512
01:05:31,889 --> 01:05:33,829
better currency, so there's

1513
01:05:33,829 --> 01:05:35,769
no way I'm going to

1514
01:05:35,769 --> 01:05:36,608
pay in Bitcoin.

1515
01:05:37,769 --> 01:05:39,209
But that is, I think,

1516
01:05:39,209 --> 01:05:42,988
faulty long-term thinking because, yes, Bitcoin's a better currency,

1517
01:05:43,329 --> 01:05:45,229
so the seller is going to demand it.

1518
01:05:45,448 --> 01:05:49,389
Also, an agent or a bot may not have the ad rails to interact with.

1519
01:05:50,229 --> 01:05:55,468
But then also, it also implies in that view

1520
01:05:55,468 --> 01:05:58,209
that the spender holds both currencies.

1521
01:05:58,749 --> 01:06:01,209
So why are you holding a joke currency?

1522
01:06:01,369 --> 01:06:02,648
Hold it all in Bitcoin.

1523
01:06:03,128 --> 01:06:08,209
And again, this is not advice that everyone should have 100% of their assets in Bitcoin.

1524
01:06:08,209 --> 01:06:12,029
But in terms of a long-term view,

1525
01:06:12,428 --> 01:06:16,508
if you have joke currency and a solid currency,

1526
01:06:16,869 --> 01:06:19,448
why are you even holding the joke currency to spend it in?

1527
01:06:19,608 --> 01:06:21,088
If you only have the good currency,

1528
01:06:21,749 --> 01:06:23,968
it makes sense to only have the good currency,

1529
01:06:24,108 --> 01:06:26,249
and then you obviously have to spend on the good currency.

1530
01:06:26,269 --> 01:06:27,169
We've talked about this before.

1531
01:06:27,289 --> 01:06:29,249
I think that in addition to the volatility argument,

1532
01:06:29,349 --> 01:06:30,948
I think the thing that changes that is the tax law.

1533
01:06:31,488 --> 01:06:31,669
Right.

1534
01:06:32,088 --> 01:06:33,729
Once you're not taxed, then everything else is true.

1535
01:06:33,909 --> 01:06:35,209
I'm not describing the world today.

1536
01:06:35,389 --> 01:06:36,269
There's all these barriers.

1537
01:06:36,369 --> 01:06:37,309
We talk about them all the time.

1538
01:06:37,309 --> 01:06:38,749
We're going to get through all of them.

1539
01:06:38,849 --> 01:06:39,829
It takes a long time, though.

1540
01:06:40,189 --> 01:06:42,829
But just the theoretical discussion of it,

1541
01:06:43,889 --> 01:06:46,749
I don't buy this argument of, like,

1542
01:06:46,849 --> 01:06:49,249
no one's going to spend Bitcoin because it's a better currency.

1543
01:06:49,448 --> 01:06:49,928
It makes no sense.

1544
01:06:50,068 --> 01:06:53,349
I think the framing that I don't hear a lot of people say,

1545
01:06:53,468 --> 01:06:55,029
which I think Steve, you pointed out once,

1546
01:06:55,108 --> 01:06:58,369
is don't think about the starting point as who you're paying or whatever.

1547
01:06:58,548 --> 01:07:02,869
Think about the starting point as I have a certain amount of resources,

1548
01:07:02,869 --> 01:07:09,289
and that can be denominated in whatever format i want right like i can hold them as bitcoin i can

1549
01:07:09,289 --> 01:07:14,928
hold them as us dollars i can hold it as real estate or something but i have that that pile

1550
01:07:14,928 --> 01:07:20,488
and now i can just decide the allocations and i can convert to whatever i want in order to

1551
01:07:20,488 --> 01:07:24,909
pay something but in you know if you really zoom out and think about it as

1552
01:07:24,909 --> 01:07:30,909
a pool of resources instead of i have bitcoin or i have dollars then you can sort of choose the mix

1553
01:07:30,909 --> 01:07:32,988
and choose the payment mechanism that you need

1554
01:07:32,988 --> 01:07:37,249
based on what your seller is willing to exchange for.

1555
01:07:38,088 --> 01:07:40,189
One additional comment here from Deanna,

1556
01:07:40,769 --> 01:07:42,349
but they came to your space at PBJ,

1557
01:07:42,488 --> 01:07:53,303
so they obviously found it credible That a good point And so kudos to the students and their professors for even coming here

1558
01:07:53,563 --> 01:07:54,443
It does show

1559
01:07:54,443 --> 01:07:57,263
they spent their time. They could have, or they did

1560
01:07:57,263 --> 01:07:59,383
visit others, but I mean, they had to pick

1561
01:07:59,383 --> 01:08:01,283
like a few spots in the Bay Area to visit

1562
01:08:01,283 --> 01:08:02,963
and they chose here. So

1563
01:08:02,963 --> 01:08:05,163
absolute shout out for them

1564
01:08:05,163 --> 01:08:07,163
coming here and hopefully they took away

1565
01:08:07,163 --> 01:08:08,623
something that helps them.

1566
01:08:09,383 --> 01:08:11,243
They could have spent all their time at the Tempo

1567
01:08:11,243 --> 01:08:11,543
headquarters.

1568
01:08:13,343 --> 01:08:19,163
By the way, as you're mentioning that, what was this MPP?

1569
01:08:19,263 --> 01:08:23,043
I know we don't have it listed as a major topic, but did anybody look into that?

1570
01:08:23,123 --> 01:08:28,303
I think it's something like MCP for payments or a payment protocol for AI.

1571
01:08:28,503 --> 01:08:29,663
Yeah, it was announced this morning.

1572
01:08:30,123 --> 01:08:30,623
Tempo thing.

1573
01:08:32,023 --> 01:08:34,003
Stripe and Tempo announced it.

1574
01:08:37,863 --> 01:08:40,963
And it actually looks like pretty good news.

1575
01:08:40,963 --> 01:08:42,803
my first take and I

1576
01:08:42,803 --> 01:08:44,043
immediately reached out to

1577
01:08:44,043 --> 01:08:46,783
folks that are

1578
01:08:46,783 --> 01:08:47,602
working on tempo

1579
01:08:47,602 --> 01:08:50,663
because there's a, it's not

1580
01:08:50,663 --> 01:08:52,683
just stablecoins. There's like

1581
01:08:52,683 --> 01:08:54,283
a lightning template.

1582
01:08:54,863 --> 01:08:56,323
Really? And so

1583
01:08:56,323 --> 01:08:58,923
I'm like, oh,

1584
01:08:59,102 --> 01:09:00,923
well, Spiral isn't involved in that. Who worked

1585
01:09:00,923 --> 01:09:02,683
on that? So my understanding,

1586
01:09:02,903 --> 01:09:05,003
to David Marcus

1587
01:09:05,003 --> 01:09:06,723
and LightSpark's credit, they worked on it

1588
01:09:06,723 --> 01:09:08,763
and it does, I'm very

1589
01:09:08,763 --> 01:09:09,483
happy to see

1590
01:09:09,483 --> 01:09:12,723
that again, I need to do a deep dive study

1591
01:09:12,723 --> 01:09:14,043
so I might come back with some critique

1592
01:09:14,043 --> 01:09:16,403
but it appears to be Lightning

1593
01:09:16,403 --> 01:09:18,323
not Spark specific

1594
01:09:18,323 --> 01:09:20,523
so I like that it's Lightning

1595
01:09:20,523 --> 01:09:21,363
and of course I think

1596
01:09:21,363 --> 01:09:24,563
they're making, they have a Spark

1597
01:09:24,563 --> 01:09:26,503
implementation of their product, that's great

1598
01:09:26,503 --> 01:09:28,083
but the Spark is open, that's great

1599
01:09:28,083 --> 01:09:30,383
and it should work with other

1600
01:09:30,383 --> 01:09:32,463
Lightning implementations and other products

1601
01:09:32,463 --> 01:09:34,423
that support Lightning, so that is

1602
01:09:34,423 --> 01:09:36,783
amazing, and yeah, I've engaged

1603
01:09:36,783 --> 01:09:38,243
with folks

1604
01:09:38,243 --> 01:09:41,283
from Paradigm and Stripe and Tempo

1605
01:09:41,283 --> 01:09:48,083
and they seem enthusiastic about...

1606
01:09:48,083 --> 01:09:51,763
I asked them if it's going to be treated

1607
01:09:51,763 --> 01:09:54,143
as a tier one thing

1608
01:09:54,143 --> 01:09:56,323
versus stable points and stuff

1609
01:09:56,323 --> 01:09:57,263
and they didn't even think

1610
01:09:57,263 --> 01:10:00,163
that was a good framing of the question

1611
01:10:00,163 --> 01:10:03,443
because it sounds like

1612
01:10:03,443 --> 01:10:05,743
the governance of this...

1613
01:10:05,743 --> 01:10:06,723
There's not going to be a governance

1614
01:10:06,723 --> 01:10:14,263
where some things are prioritized over other solutions,

1615
01:10:14,443 --> 01:10:15,983
but it's more just like free market.

1616
01:10:16,423 --> 01:10:19,043
Like if the people integrating MPP,

1617
01:10:19,223 --> 01:10:22,863
if they include a lightning solution,

1618
01:10:23,283 --> 01:10:24,183
then it's going to work.

1619
01:10:24,303 --> 01:10:24,663
That's awesome.

1620
01:10:24,663 --> 01:10:27,263
It's more of an attitude of builders build,

1621
01:10:27,423 --> 01:10:29,863
and if people build it and integrate it and support it,

1622
01:10:29,903 --> 01:10:30,703
then it's going to be...

1623
01:10:30,703 --> 01:10:31,663
How does it interact?

1624
01:10:32,443 --> 01:10:36,602
Is it like a peer or an alternative to X402, L402,

1625
01:10:36,602 --> 01:10:37,983
or is it like integrated with it somehow?

1626
01:10:39,963 --> 01:10:41,803
Again, I mean, it just was announced this morning

1627
01:10:41,803 --> 01:10:44,423
and I have a few minutes of research on it.

1628
01:10:44,703 --> 01:10:48,323
But my understanding is that it's a competitor to X402.

1629
01:10:48,602 --> 01:10:48,823
Okay.

1630
01:10:50,203 --> 01:10:52,763
Well, a competitor to L402,

1631
01:10:52,863 --> 01:10:54,763
but if there is strong Lightning support,

1632
01:10:54,763 --> 01:10:57,223
then I mean, we're going to have to see like,

1633
01:10:58,323 --> 01:11:02,463
well, I mean, I think my early take is that supporting,

1634
01:11:02,903 --> 01:11:04,423
like as a Bitcoin advocate,

1635
01:11:04,423 --> 01:11:07,663
we should push continued advocate for L402,

1636
01:11:07,883 --> 01:11:11,723
but it appears like this is a nice alternative too

1637
01:11:11,723 --> 01:11:13,683
that should work with Bitcoin wallets.

1638
01:11:13,903 --> 01:11:14,243
That's amazing.

1639
01:11:14,423 --> 01:11:16,763
And there's, I'm sure, an opportunity to even bridge this.

1640
01:11:16,883 --> 01:11:18,923
Like if you have some bridge to L402,

1641
01:11:18,963 --> 01:11:20,263
I don't know if anyone's looked at that yet.

1642
01:11:20,363 --> 01:11:22,663
I guess my understanding of how it will work

1643
01:11:22,663 --> 01:11:26,183
and my hope is that, yeah, if there's like two services,

1644
01:11:26,523 --> 01:11:29,643
one supports L402 and the other supports MPP

1645
01:11:29,643 --> 01:11:31,483
with the Lightning extension or whatever,

1646
01:11:31,483 --> 01:11:33,543
and then we all have Lightning wallets,

1647
01:11:33,543 --> 01:11:36,602
or our agent has like an MDK wallet

1648
01:11:36,602 --> 01:11:39,023
that it could pay either of them totally fine

1649
01:11:39,023 --> 01:11:40,803
and it would work.

1650
01:11:40,983 --> 01:11:41,363
That's awesome.

1651
01:11:41,783 --> 01:11:45,523
And if so, great work to the LightSpark team

1652
01:11:45,523 --> 01:11:46,943
because I know that they've been one of the few

1653
01:11:46,943 --> 01:11:49,843
sort of organizations that has whatever some of these,

1654
01:11:50,223 --> 01:11:52,743
I don't know, relationships in the crypto world as well.

1655
01:11:52,923 --> 01:11:54,383
And to build that bridge is awesome.

1656
01:11:54,763 --> 01:11:56,443
And also, to everything we were saying,

1657
01:11:56,563 --> 01:11:59,083
it's like I've been very frustrated with crypto people,

1658
01:11:59,323 --> 01:12:00,823
but not all of them are necessarily bad actors.

1659
01:12:00,963 --> 01:12:02,883
Like Paradigm is full of really smart people.

1660
01:12:02,883 --> 01:12:04,643
I would love to see them come back

1661
01:12:04,643 --> 01:12:05,703
and start helping to contribute

1662
01:12:05,703 --> 01:12:07,223
with the Bitcoin Lightning ecosystem.

1663
01:12:07,383 --> 01:12:07,883
That would be awesome.

1664
01:12:08,503 --> 01:12:09,343
Maybe this is a first step.

1665
01:12:12,183 --> 01:12:13,763
Just reading some of the comments here.

1666
01:12:15,663 --> 01:12:18,143
What about paying in Bitcoin representation?

1667
01:12:20,303 --> 01:12:21,703
Idiots, that holds them big.

1668
01:12:22,983 --> 01:12:24,223
Yeah, I don't really understand that.

1669
01:12:25,223 --> 01:12:26,843
I'll just jump in while you're reading that.

1670
01:12:28,843 --> 01:12:30,783
Another shout out I was going to give

1671
01:12:30,783 --> 01:12:32,683
to the branding discussion.

1672
01:12:32,883 --> 01:12:35,783
I like the

1673
01:12:35,783 --> 01:12:38,063
you know we've talked before about the Flint community

1674
01:12:38,063 --> 01:12:39,663
and I feel like the Flint community

1675
01:12:39,663 --> 01:12:42,223
is a very nice balance

1676
01:12:42,223 --> 01:12:43,803
it doesn't have the word Bitcoin in it

1677
01:12:43,803 --> 01:12:45,183
it's not a Bitcoin centric

1678
01:12:45,183 --> 01:12:47,583
brand but it does

1679
01:12:47,583 --> 01:12:49,883
have some Bitcoin ethos

1680
01:12:49,883 --> 01:12:50,743
to it I think

1681
01:12:50,743 --> 01:12:53,602
mostly we removed

1682
01:12:53,602 --> 01:12:55,403
the word Bitcoin from the webpage

1683
01:12:55,403 --> 01:12:57,303
but like when you

1684
01:12:57,303 --> 01:12:58,963
when you're involved in the community

1685
01:12:58,963 --> 01:13:00,883
each instance is very intentional and

1686
01:13:00,883 --> 01:13:02,303
relatively subtle

1687
01:13:02,303 --> 01:13:17,102
So I feel like that's, it kind of hits a nice tone of like it's, it attracts the right people and it gets, you know, you don't have to sort of, you're not re-prosecuting, you know, the discussions that might be happening in public.

1688
01:13:17,303 --> 01:13:22,243
But it does so without a brand that really feels like it's pushing Bitcoin.

1689
01:13:22,463 --> 01:13:24,463
It's more of a builder type brand.

1690
01:13:24,463 --> 01:13:27,163
So, DK, two questions for you.

1691
01:13:27,163 --> 01:13:28,602
as you think about

1692
01:13:28,602 --> 01:13:31,363
with people that are, for example,

1693
01:13:31,423 --> 01:13:32,703
I know you talk with a lot of AI people.

1694
01:13:33,283 --> 01:13:35,323
If you were trying to get them interested

1695
01:13:35,323 --> 01:13:37,343
in what we were doing, you mentioned

1696
01:13:37,343 --> 01:13:39,203
a lot of these folks in Silicon Valley

1697
01:13:39,203 --> 01:13:41,503
in general like FOSS, free and open source software.

1698
01:13:41,863 --> 01:13:43,143
However, I think it's worth noting that

1699
01:13:43,143 --> 01:13:45,423
what does open source even mean anymore with LMS?

1700
01:13:45,523 --> 01:13:46,602
That's changing a lot.

1701
01:13:49,223 --> 01:13:51,283
What would be your dream event?

1702
01:13:51,423 --> 01:13:53,403
Let's say you're getting a lot of folks that you work with

1703
01:13:53,403 --> 01:13:55,123
and your others are in an investing life.

1704
01:13:55,123 --> 01:14:07,143
Like, how would you pitch them to even, I don't know, like if you were trying to get them to come to, you know, an event at PB or whatever and like learn about what we're doing, where would you even start? Would you use the word FOSS? Would you use a different open?

1705
01:14:07,143 --> 01:14:12,723
yeah i think it really depends a lot on the audience like you know steve was talking about

1706
01:14:12,723 --> 01:14:17,763
how like lightning makes sense in some contexts and not in others right so i i think it really

1707
01:14:17,763 --> 01:14:23,843
it always comes down to the the topic but i i don't think i don't think people are generally

1708
01:14:23,843 --> 01:14:29,363
or it comes down to the audience i don't think people are generally looking to learn more about

1709
01:14:29,363 --> 01:14:36,283
bitcoin in it unless they see something new that they can do with it right so i think the biggest

1710
01:14:36,283 --> 01:14:42,183
thing that i think would attract you know kind of a traditional builder or an ai builder is some of

1711
01:14:42,183 --> 01:14:49,023
the stuff that i think you know like what what ori is doing yeah you know is a mdk they're they're

1712
01:14:49,023 --> 01:14:54,563
showing how easy it is to build with bitcoin and then if some projects take off and people start

1713
01:14:54,563 --> 01:14:59,203
demanding it then i think more traditional builders were kind of agnostic to the how stuff

1714
01:14:59,203 --> 01:15:04,063
gets paid they're just like i want to build this cool tool or this new ai i think they'll be

1715
01:15:04,063 --> 01:15:09,143
attracted because people are demanding it, but I don't think it's necessarily super productive

1716
01:15:09,143 --> 01:15:15,663
to try to convince people to be interested. I'm always open to sharing and talking about it,

1717
01:15:15,703 --> 01:15:21,343
but I think most people just, they kind of have to come to it because something about it

1718
01:15:21,343 --> 01:15:25,723
piques their curiosity and just the pure store value idea is not probably enough.

1719
01:15:25,723 --> 01:15:29,883
Let me reframe that with the open source thing. For people that are interested traditionally in

1720
01:15:29,883 --> 01:15:30,723
open source software.

1721
01:15:31,883 --> 01:15:33,043
Do you think is FOSS,

1722
01:15:33,163 --> 01:15:34,463
like, hey, is that even still,

1723
01:15:34,743 --> 01:15:36,303
does FOSS even exist anymore?

1724
01:15:36,423 --> 01:15:38,883
Is that still worth using as a framework?

1725
01:15:38,883 --> 01:15:39,963
Is all software FOSS?

1726
01:15:40,203 --> 01:15:40,683
Yeah, exactly.

1727
01:15:41,343 --> 01:15:42,543
That was where I was hoping

1728
01:15:42,543 --> 01:15:43,823
we'd spend most of our time today,

1729
01:15:43,903 --> 01:15:45,543
and now we have 10 minutes left or whatever.

1730
01:15:45,843 --> 01:15:47,102
Maybe let's dive into that.

1731
01:15:47,102 --> 01:15:48,363
Start that discussion.

1732
01:15:48,543 --> 01:15:50,703
I think this will be a multi-episode,

1733
01:15:50,923 --> 01:15:51,723
ongoing discussion.

1734
01:15:52,003 --> 01:15:52,223
For the next year.

1735
01:15:52,602 --> 01:15:56,283
How does FOSS, free open source software,

1736
01:15:56,283 --> 01:16:00,102
how is AI going to impact that?

1737
01:16:00,163 --> 01:16:01,303
How is it already impacting it?

1738
01:16:01,663 --> 01:16:06,283
And does it change the value of it over time?

1739
01:16:06,343 --> 01:16:07,263
Where do we see that going?

1740
01:16:09,023 --> 01:16:09,963
I mean, I'll start,

1741
01:16:10,083 --> 01:16:12,923
but very curious to hear what your guys' views are.

1742
01:16:12,923 --> 01:16:23,102
I mean, the free part means that it's freely available,

1743
01:16:23,102 --> 01:16:26,623
but it doesn't necessarily mean free ink cost.

1744
01:16:26,823 --> 01:16:28,703
There's a lot of different licenses,

1745
01:16:28,983 --> 01:16:30,602
and you can get in debates about

1746
01:16:30,602 --> 01:16:36,563
what level of permissiveness is needed for software,

1747
01:16:36,803 --> 01:16:40,063
but the most permissive licenses like MIT and Apache 2,

1748
01:16:41,403 --> 01:16:42,443
it is free.

1749
01:16:42,763 --> 01:16:44,363
Free as in freedom, not free as in beer.

1750
01:16:44,363 --> 01:16:47,703
It's free as in freedom, and it's free as in beer, those.

1751
01:16:48,203 --> 01:16:51,943
But then other open source licenses are restrictive

1752
01:16:51,943 --> 01:16:53,503
in terms of how you can use it,

1753
01:16:53,963 --> 01:16:55,143
what you can use it for,

1754
01:16:55,783 --> 01:16:59,723
and they're often applied for a couple reasons.

1755
01:16:59,983 --> 01:17:02,703
One, if you want to ensure that any modification

1756
01:17:02,703 --> 01:17:05,283
is upstreamed into the main repo,

1757
01:17:05,283 --> 01:17:09,643
you might put a more copy left type license on it.

1758
01:17:10,263 --> 01:17:14,623
Or if your real goal is just publishing the code

1759
01:17:14,623 --> 01:17:17,343
for transparency reasons,

1760
01:17:17,563 --> 01:17:20,823
but you still want any real usage of it

1761
01:17:20,823 --> 01:17:22,543
from another business to pay you.

1762
01:17:23,023 --> 01:17:24,283
So if you actually,

1763
01:17:24,623 --> 01:17:27,003
if you want to use the software I wrote and published

1764
01:17:27,003 --> 01:17:28,663
for your business and you're making money,

1765
01:17:29,203 --> 01:17:31,743
let's have a business development arrangement, right?

1766
01:17:31,983 --> 01:17:34,602
So that's historically how this works

1767
01:17:34,602 --> 01:17:36,602
and what's involved.

1768
01:17:37,143 --> 01:17:40,223
But how does it change with AI?

1769
01:17:40,843 --> 01:17:44,343
I guess one, well,

1770
01:17:45,003 --> 01:17:48,183
so I'll start off with why I don't think

1771
01:17:48,183 --> 01:17:50,843
some things that won't change.

1772
01:17:51,102 --> 01:17:54,102
I mean, I still think it'll be very valuable for the world

1773
01:17:54,102 --> 01:17:58,963
for code that's produced to make it

1774
01:17:58,963 --> 01:18:02,943
available. And that's important for transparency and

1775
01:18:02,943 --> 01:18:05,403
audit reasons and reproducible builds.

1776
01:18:05,403 --> 01:18:09,263
And if it's proprietary and closed

1777
01:18:09,263 --> 01:18:13,203
and you can't see it, that's a scary world.

1778
01:18:14,123 --> 01:18:17,163
Even if humans aren't the ones

1779
01:18:17,163 --> 01:18:18,663
doing the review audits

1780
01:18:18,663 --> 01:18:20,063
in security,

1781
01:18:20,363 --> 01:18:22,763
but I'd want my bots.

1782
01:18:23,283 --> 01:18:25,283
I'd want my human team

1783
01:18:25,283 --> 01:18:26,263
or my bot team

1784
01:18:26,263 --> 01:18:28,483
or a combination of that team

1785
01:18:28,483 --> 01:18:31,602
to ensure any software

1786
01:18:31,602 --> 01:18:32,663
that I'm using

1787
01:18:32,663 --> 01:18:35,303
is high quality and secure.

1788
01:18:35,423 --> 01:18:36,203
And it obviously depends

1789
01:18:36,203 --> 01:18:36,763
on the application.

1790
01:18:36,923 --> 01:18:38,343
If it's a one-off,

1791
01:18:38,543 --> 01:18:39,803
disposable piece of software

1792
01:18:39,803 --> 01:18:41,203
that I'm doing for a to-do list

1793
01:18:41,203 --> 01:18:41,503
or whatever,

1794
01:18:41,602 --> 01:18:42,443
it doesn't need like

1795
01:18:42,443 --> 01:18:46,003
flight-level FAA kind of security.

1796
01:18:46,003 --> 01:18:48,483
or Bitcoin private keys or whatever.

1797
01:18:48,643 --> 01:18:50,583
But if it is super critical software,

1798
01:18:50,843 --> 01:18:52,123
then that's a must.

1799
01:18:52,283 --> 01:18:56,343
So I still think we want to encourage software to be open.

1800
01:18:56,563 --> 01:18:59,123
Plus there's another benefit of open software

1801
01:18:59,123 --> 01:19:01,003
is that you can build on the shoulders.

1802
01:19:01,343 --> 01:19:02,863
You can sit on the shoulders of others

1803
01:19:02,863 --> 01:19:04,123
and build even better things.

1804
01:19:04,643 --> 01:19:06,263
And everyone benefits from that.

1805
01:19:06,743 --> 01:19:09,623
So I think that still remains true.

1806
01:19:11,003 --> 01:19:12,663
So from that perspective,

1807
01:19:12,663 --> 01:19:14,783
I don't really see why it changes things.

1808
01:19:14,783 --> 01:19:20,423
But what does change is like, who's looking at the code?

1809
01:19:20,743 --> 01:19:22,323
Are humans still looking at the code?

1810
01:19:22,443 --> 01:19:23,102
Are agents?

1811
01:19:23,602 --> 01:19:25,183
How is the code used in Reduxes?

1812
01:19:25,563 --> 01:19:26,783
So how do we...

1813
01:19:27,403 --> 01:19:31,543
Like, do these licenses even make sense in this world?

1814
01:19:31,783 --> 01:19:37,843
Because like, if you have, isn't it GPL that if you use GPL, then you have to sort of also be GPL?

1815
01:19:38,423 --> 01:19:38,563
Yeah.

1816
01:19:38,563 --> 01:19:44,083
And so is there really any coding model that has no GPL software in its training data?

1817
01:19:44,783 --> 01:19:53,602
do you think that's true i don't think that's true no so then what if i find a gpl licensed

1818
01:19:53,602 --> 01:19:58,763
product and i say i like this product let's rebuild it with the same goals but don't use

1819
01:19:58,763 --> 01:20:06,403
any of the software i could do that prompt but presumably the training data is using the stuff

1820
01:20:06,403 --> 01:20:11,483
that kind of implies the gpl should propagate which probably doesn't actually end up happening

1821
01:20:11,483 --> 01:20:13,483
today. So I think even the concept

1822
01:20:13,483 --> 01:20:15,423
of all these

1823
01:20:15,423 --> 01:20:17,503
different open source licenses and styles

1824
01:20:17,503 --> 01:20:19,523
of use may get redefined

1825
01:20:19,523 --> 01:20:21,083
when most software is being written

1826
01:20:21,083 --> 01:20:23,463
by bots or

1827
01:20:23,463 --> 01:20:24,003
by agents.

1828
01:20:25,483 --> 01:20:27,523
So yeah, I

1829
01:20:27,523 --> 01:20:29,003
think the legal and licensing

1830
01:20:29,003 --> 01:20:31,123
aspect, I definitely agree,

1831
01:20:31,443 --> 01:20:33,343
will probably be disrupted, changed.

1832
01:20:33,943 --> 01:20:35,463
But what about the value?

1833
01:20:35,863 --> 01:20:37,223
That makes everything become

1834
01:20:37,223 --> 01:20:39,363
effectively MIT-ish, right?

1835
01:20:40,163 --> 01:20:41,303
Well, not if

1836
01:20:41,303 --> 01:20:43,223
not if I have

1837
01:20:43,223 --> 01:20:45,923
tons of software as closed source.

1838
01:20:46,843 --> 01:20:47,323
Sure.

1839
01:20:47,883 --> 01:20:49,183
Closed source is closed source.

1840
01:20:49,283 --> 01:20:51,503
Anything open source, you can almost argue

1841
01:20:51,503 --> 01:20:52,483
that you can use it.

1842
01:20:52,483 --> 01:20:54,623
I agree with that, but what about closed source?

1843
01:20:55,943 --> 01:20:57,303
Number one, is there

1844
01:20:57,303 --> 01:20:59,243
a shift in value, whether it be

1845
01:20:59,243 --> 01:21:01,503
increase or decrease, for the notion

1846
01:21:01,503 --> 01:21:02,363
of boss?

1847
01:21:03,223 --> 01:21:04,403
That's one question I have.

1848
01:21:04,403 --> 01:21:06,523
And then two, do we think

1849
01:21:06,523 --> 01:21:07,463
that more

1850
01:21:07,463 --> 01:21:10,343
proprietary closed software

1851
01:21:10,343 --> 01:21:14,543
will become open or the opposite?

1852
01:21:15,303 --> 01:21:15,803
Because you don't,

1853
01:21:15,943 --> 01:21:17,403
because you all of a sudden,

1854
01:21:17,543 --> 01:21:18,723
I've seen some people,

1855
01:21:18,983 --> 01:21:19,883
like a narrative start,

1856
01:21:20,243 --> 01:21:23,003
I think JB55 is saying like,

1857
01:21:23,723 --> 01:21:25,183
maybe he doesn't want to do

1858
01:21:25,183 --> 01:21:26,003
open source software now

1859
01:21:26,003 --> 01:21:28,503
because now it's so swift

1860
01:21:28,503 --> 01:21:30,283
to copy other people's work

1861
01:21:30,283 --> 01:21:32,163
and produce a competing,

1862
01:21:33,043 --> 01:21:34,243
a copy of the product

1863
01:21:34,243 --> 01:21:35,743
and quickly better

1864
01:21:35,743 --> 01:21:37,483
that maybe he doesn't even want

1865
01:21:37,483 --> 01:21:38,363
to do open source anymore.

1866
01:21:38,523 --> 01:21:40,063
So do we see a shift back towards

1867
01:21:40,343 --> 01:21:40,903
Close source.

1868
01:21:41,023 --> 01:21:45,483
And I also think, I mean, there's like even a deeper question of like, well, what actually

1869
01:21:45,483 --> 01:21:45,903
matters?

1870
01:21:46,003 --> 01:21:47,143
Like, where is the value accrued?

1871
01:21:47,223 --> 01:21:48,363
Where is the value created and where is accrued?

1872
01:21:48,463 --> 01:21:53,663
And like, to me, the most important thing of FOSS is the transparency, right?

1873
01:21:53,743 --> 01:21:59,583
And so one thing I would want to say is how do I utilize transparent services on the internet?

1874
01:22:00,023 --> 01:22:04,163
But one concern I have is like, you know, I don't even know if the code even really

1875
01:22:04,163 --> 01:22:04,463
matters.

1876
01:22:04,463 --> 01:22:08,303
I get JB55's point that like, you know, I do agree with him, at least in this current

1877
01:22:08,303 --> 01:22:13,823
stage it's trivial to copy an idea but i mean it's quite hard to maybe go from like 99 good to like

1878
01:22:13,823 --> 01:22:17,823
that extra je ne sais quoi that he has to make something really beautiful and maybe that's what

1879
01:22:17,823 --> 01:22:22,783
he wants to sort of defend i get that point but like dude if you're aji pill two years out jb55

1880
01:22:22,783 --> 01:22:28,623
is great but like what about when you know you know he he i am to him as he is to the whatever

1881
01:22:28,623 --> 01:22:35,423
claude uh you know whatever 10. take another oh go ahead no please i was just take another layer

1882
01:22:35,423 --> 01:22:37,483
of abstraction. Did you guys see the back

1883
01:22:37,483 --> 01:22:39,323
and forth between Chamath and Sailor?

1884
01:22:39,903 --> 01:22:40,243
No.

1885
01:22:41,243 --> 01:22:41,783
Oh, you didn't?

1886
01:22:43,243 --> 01:22:45,483
I'm off Twitter, bro. Somebody shared

1887
01:22:45,483 --> 01:22:47,403
it to me. Chamath

1888
01:22:47,403 --> 01:22:49,403
wrote some sort of essay.

1889
01:22:49,483 --> 01:22:50,843
I think DK shared it with us.

1890
01:22:51,003 --> 01:22:51,783
Or maybe I shared it with you.

1891
01:22:53,363 --> 01:22:54,643
So, effectively,

1892
01:22:55,023 --> 01:22:57,102
I kind of skimmed, but

1893
01:22:57,102 --> 01:22:59,623
Chamath wrote some essay basically about how

1894
01:22:59,623 --> 01:23:01,303
the future

1895
01:23:01,303 --> 01:23:03,283
value of companies, you know, you

1896
01:23:03,283 --> 01:23:05,323
kind of pay for discounted cash flow

1897
01:23:05,323 --> 01:23:11,023
for future value that you assume the company is going to capture and that the periods maybe i i

1898
01:23:11,023 --> 01:23:15,643
don't know all the details of what the essay said but maybe the periods you would assume today are

1899
01:23:15,643 --> 01:23:21,703
30 years of future cash flow and maybe we need to really shorten that to something like is it five

1900
01:23:21,703 --> 01:23:26,483
years or is it maybe there's no duration on that which really changes the valuations of public

1901
01:23:26,483 --> 01:23:31,423
markets the reason i point this out within the conversation is because that's like a one layer

1902
01:23:31,423 --> 01:23:37,463
of abstraction a way you know as a company instead of just a software project but i think there's

1903
01:23:38,063 --> 01:23:43,343
the kind of cousins of each other sort of somehow close relatives well and and this is something

1904
01:23:43,343 --> 01:23:46,883
that we've talked about on the show for a very long time you know when i put on my investor hat

1905
01:23:46,883 --> 01:23:52,003
and i'm not just uh out here alex jones ranting i actually think about like how to allocate capital

1906
01:23:52,003 --> 01:23:56,763
right it's like i think in the long run it's like okay you want to go uh and by the way like i want

1907
01:23:56,763 --> 01:24:00,743
everything i want deflation and all kinds of goods and services so that everyone wins like

1908
01:24:00,743 --> 01:24:01,863
Yeah, funds into everywhere, yeah.

1909
01:24:02,102 --> 01:24:04,183
That's a big part of my personal worldview

1910
01:24:04,183 --> 01:24:05,143
and what I want to see happen.

1911
01:24:05,483 --> 01:24:07,643
But when I do put on my capital allocation hat,

1912
01:24:07,903 --> 01:24:09,083
my question is, okay, well,

1913
01:24:10,003 --> 01:24:11,963
the value capture is going to go to where there's scarcity.

1914
01:24:12,383 --> 01:24:13,483
So in this coming world,

1915
01:24:13,823 --> 01:24:15,983
the only things that I've been able to come up with

1916
01:24:15,983 --> 01:24:17,663
that are scarce are the infrastructure running at all.

1917
01:24:17,723 --> 01:24:19,563
So if you've got, for now, the compute the energy,

1918
01:24:19,663 --> 01:24:21,703
although that obviously depreciates every time,

1919
01:24:22,583 --> 01:24:23,903
Bitcoin, which is digital capital,

1920
01:24:24,043 --> 01:24:26,383
assuming that doesn't get broken in some way, shape, or form,

1921
01:24:26,703 --> 01:24:27,783
the Lightning Network position,

1922
01:24:27,783 --> 01:24:30,843
because that's the position in the railroad network

1923
01:24:30,843 --> 01:24:32,023
and human attention,

1924
01:24:32,223 --> 01:24:33,963
or human and potentially bot attention,

1925
01:24:34,102 --> 01:24:34,983
whatever that ends up meaning.

1926
01:24:35,403 --> 01:24:36,943
But the last one, the human and bot...

1927
01:24:36,943 --> 01:24:38,443
What about the single railroad to space?

1928
01:24:41,543 --> 01:24:43,063
DK's an Elon Maxie.

1929
01:24:43,102 --> 01:24:44,023
I'm not going to address that.

1930
01:24:44,883 --> 01:24:45,723
I'm the Elon Maxie.

1931
01:24:45,763 --> 01:24:46,163
DK's not.

1932
01:24:46,403 --> 01:24:48,983
But for whatever reason,

1933
01:24:49,223 --> 01:24:50,263
he's not yet on the Elon train.

1934
01:24:50,443 --> 01:24:50,523
He'll get it.

1935
01:24:50,523 --> 01:24:50,743
No, no.

1936
01:24:50,943 --> 01:24:52,043
I like the space thing.

1937
01:24:52,183 --> 01:24:54,043
No, and every time you always go,

1938
01:24:54,203 --> 01:24:55,203
you always make a dig at the Elon.

1939
01:24:55,283 --> 01:24:55,883
No, no, no.

1940
01:24:55,943 --> 01:24:56,703
But I just like it.

1941
01:24:56,783 --> 01:24:57,303
We don't like it.

1942
01:24:57,303 --> 01:24:57,602
I like the space thing.

1943
01:24:57,783 --> 01:24:58,683
No, it's got space.

1944
01:24:58,863 --> 01:24:58,983
It's good.

1945
01:24:59,102 --> 01:24:59,303
It's good.

1946
01:24:59,643 --> 01:25:01,223
Anyways, but my broader point is

1947
01:25:01,223 --> 01:25:02,523
when you look at those four things,

1948
01:25:02,703 --> 01:25:05,703
since attention is the one that all of software,

1949
01:25:06,102 --> 01:25:08,243
media, the internet, services,

1950
01:25:08,423 --> 01:25:09,703
everything is basically competing for that.

1951
01:25:09,963 --> 01:25:10,423
And by the way,

1952
01:25:10,463 --> 01:25:11,723
something else I think is worth talking about

1953
01:25:11,723 --> 01:25:12,823
is this idea of like,

1954
01:25:13,083 --> 01:25:14,703
you know, as like the basic stuff

1955
01:25:14,703 --> 01:25:17,643
is increasingly taken care of by robots and by AI.

1956
01:25:17,783 --> 01:25:19,323
So it's like, okay, food, water, shelter,

1957
01:25:19,703 --> 01:25:21,023
all that increasingly, you know,

1958
01:25:21,023 --> 01:25:21,623
there's deflation.

1959
01:25:21,923 --> 01:25:23,123
Everyone gets access to the basics.

1960
01:25:23,223 --> 01:25:23,643
That's awesome.

1961
01:25:23,763 --> 01:25:25,223
And maybe even as Elon says,

1962
01:25:25,303 --> 01:25:27,083
universal high income, that'd be awesome.

1963
01:25:27,803 --> 01:25:28,983
What do humans end up doing?

1964
01:25:29,123 --> 01:25:30,843
Well, you know, for better or for worse,

1965
01:25:31,223 --> 01:25:33,643
we, and I think there was a Chris Pike essay

1966
01:25:33,643 --> 01:25:35,063
I liked about this where he was just like,

1967
01:25:35,343 --> 01:25:36,943
you know, we didn't used to have pro sports teams.

1968
01:25:37,283 --> 01:25:38,423
And then we have more leisure time.

1969
01:25:38,483 --> 01:25:39,463
Now we have pro sports teams.

1970
01:25:39,863 --> 01:25:42,003
Now Steve is, you know, on here flexing his arms

1971
01:25:42,003 --> 01:25:42,783
in his Iowa State shirt.

1972
01:25:42,883 --> 01:25:44,403
That would not have been possible 100 years ago.

1973
01:25:44,783 --> 01:25:46,543
And so there will be all kinds of new,

1974
01:25:46,703 --> 01:25:50,563
like humans have an infinity of ways

1975
01:25:50,563 --> 01:25:52,943
that they can flex on each other,

1976
01:25:52,943 --> 01:25:54,683
which is not my favorite way of saying it,

1977
01:25:54,703 --> 01:25:55,803
but that's kind of what he was getting at.

1978
01:25:55,803 --> 01:25:57,483
or play with each other

1979
01:25:57,483 --> 01:25:59,563
or create new games, new sports, new status

1980
01:25:59,563 --> 01:26:01,543
competition. I'm not worried about that. That's where

1981
01:26:01,543 --> 01:26:03,663
humans are going to end up going and maybe the robots

1982
01:26:03,663 --> 01:26:05,083
make sure no one starves. Cool.

1983
01:26:05,723 --> 01:26:07,443
But in that world, that is so

1984
01:26:07,443 --> 01:26:09,543
hard, particularly where

1985
01:26:09,543 --> 01:26:11,283
we are today, to predict as an investor.

1986
01:26:11,443 --> 01:26:13,483
I would not want to be picking, well, this is what's

1987
01:26:13,483 --> 01:26:15,463
going to win the next status game

1988
01:26:15,463 --> 01:26:17,543
because the next status game is changing every single

1989
01:26:17,543 --> 01:26:19,423
day. So I would not want to be

1990
01:26:19,423 --> 01:26:21,123
betting on companies that I think

1991
01:26:21,123 --> 01:26:23,243
will win the human attention

1992
01:26:23,243 --> 01:26:25,283
or the machine attention economy because

1993
01:26:25,283 --> 01:26:27,443
I don't think there's any durable advantage there, and I think that's what

1994
01:26:27,443 --> 01:26:29,463
Chamath was getting at. So as an investor, I

1995
01:26:29,463 --> 01:26:31,423
want to own the energy infrastructure, the Bitcoin,

1996
01:26:31,623 --> 01:26:33,363
and the Lightning Network routing position, because those

1997
01:26:33,363 --> 01:26:35,503
are things that I see, okay, those are moats that no one's

1998
01:26:35,503 --> 01:26:37,763
going to erode. Yeah, and you read

1999
01:26:37,763 --> 01:26:38,983
Saylor's response, right?

2000
01:26:39,423 --> 01:26:41,463
He basically was like, well, if

2001
01:26:41,463 --> 01:26:43,403
you believe all these things about the public markets,

2002
01:26:43,403 --> 01:26:44,663
then you should be buying Bitcoin.

2003
01:26:45,523 --> 01:26:46,763
That was kind of his conclusion.

2004
01:26:48,823 --> 01:26:49,483
But Chamath

2005
01:26:49,483 --> 01:26:51,483
said it's not quantum resistant. Right, not

2006
01:26:51,483 --> 01:26:53,583
quantum resistant, so he's kind of on that FUD train now.

2007
01:26:53,583 --> 01:26:57,003
Did he also recommend Zcash?

2008
01:26:57,123 --> 01:26:57,903
I hear it's more private.

2009
01:26:58,983 --> 01:27:02,643
Getting back to AI's impact on open source,

2010
01:27:03,143 --> 01:27:06,363
I mean, another perspective for us to discuss

2011
01:27:06,363 --> 01:27:09,443
since we're at time in a future episode,

2012
01:27:09,643 --> 01:27:11,683
but I'll plant the seed in your guys' head

2013
01:27:11,683 --> 01:27:13,783
and anyone listening would love to hear your thoughts.

2014
01:27:15,763 --> 01:27:20,663
Like, does it change how Spiral thinks about open source,

2015
01:27:20,663 --> 01:27:22,163
the value we contribute?

2016
01:27:22,883 --> 01:27:23,883
Does it impact that?

2017
01:27:24,023 --> 01:27:26,843
Do we need to change course or do something differently?

2018
01:27:27,723 --> 01:27:33,183
And I brought up last week about we're thinking about an AI initiative

2019
01:27:33,183 --> 01:27:35,183
and what can we do for open source AI.

2020
01:27:36,183 --> 01:27:44,343
So can we apply the playbook we've used the past six plus seven years or so

2021
01:27:44,343 --> 01:27:46,503
in open source Bitcoin?

2022
01:27:47,683 --> 01:27:50,343
A, can we apply the same playbook to AI?

2023
01:27:50,343 --> 01:27:53,102
or what adjustments do we need to make to have success?

2024
01:27:53,643 --> 01:27:57,943
And then B, do we even need to revisit our playbook for Bitcoin?

2025
01:27:58,143 --> 01:27:59,283
So I think that's a really good question.

2026
01:27:59,403 --> 01:28:02,023
And I think also thinking about how far can we take the auditability

2027
01:28:02,023 --> 01:28:02,743
and where it is in.

2028
01:28:02,803 --> 01:28:05,423
Because right now, what kind of, I mean, it excites me and concerns me

2029
01:28:05,423 --> 01:28:09,463
is like, you know, one, you know, everyone has these amazing agents

2030
01:28:09,463 --> 01:28:12,023
and like I am now super clod pilled.

2031
01:28:12,143 --> 01:28:12,602
I love it.

2032
01:28:13,063 --> 01:28:15,983
But I don't know, like how do I know that clod's not going to get,

2033
01:28:16,043 --> 01:28:17,163
you know, poisoned over time?

2034
01:28:17,223 --> 01:28:17,763
I don't know that.

2035
01:28:17,763 --> 01:28:31,723
So it makes me increasingly bullish on things like what Jesse is working on with Bora, what Tony and Mark's working on with Maple and other, you know, other abilities to own your own sort of, I forgot the word he always uses, fiduciary AI, someone that's actually like working on your behalf.

2036
01:28:31,863 --> 01:28:32,523
That's super important.

2037
01:28:32,563 --> 01:28:34,743
But even a layer deeper, can we actually get enough?

2038
01:28:34,763 --> 01:28:37,102
Because no one really still knows how these LLMs even work.

2039
01:28:37,163 --> 01:28:42,283
Like you can't just be like, oh, I can point to exactly, you know, the right neuron for every action it takes that's firing.

2040
01:28:42,283 --> 01:28:50,963
You know, how far can we get into the interpretability of this compute to be able to say, actually, no, there's a poison pill in this model and it's not over here.

2041
01:28:51,323 --> 01:28:52,503
You know, open weights are a start.

2042
01:28:52,643 --> 01:28:53,903
Open data sets would be even better.

2043
01:28:54,003 --> 01:28:59,563
But like, I think we actually need fundamental breakthroughs in auditing how these digital brains are even operating to get this true.

2044
01:29:00,083 --> 01:29:03,183
You should know a week from today.

2045
01:29:04,023 --> 01:29:04,602
Is that so?

2046
01:29:04,863 --> 01:29:07,723
Because there's a company, a former OpenAI guy.

2047
01:29:07,863 --> 01:29:08,483
Do you know this company?

2048
01:29:08,843 --> 01:29:09,643
Yeah, I do.

2049
01:29:09,643 --> 01:29:12,963
One of my other friends is also an investor.

2050
01:29:13,143 --> 01:29:13,723
I'll be there.

2051
01:29:13,843 --> 01:29:14,143
I'm excited.

2052
01:29:14,403 --> 01:29:14,983
Okay, good, good.

2053
01:29:16,463 --> 01:29:22,003
So you mentioned or touched on sovereignty,

2054
01:29:22,963 --> 01:29:24,323
like what Vora is doing,

2055
01:29:24,843 --> 01:29:27,383
and maybe AI, maybe a little bit more privacy.

2056
01:29:27,723 --> 01:29:29,923
But that's one way.

2057
01:29:30,323 --> 01:29:36,123
Should the focal point be on sovereignty instead of FOSS?

2058
01:29:36,123 --> 01:29:38,102
And that doesn't mean it's not FOSS still,

2059
01:29:38,102 --> 01:29:40,102
but like are you optimizing for FOSS

2060
01:29:40,102 --> 01:29:41,803
or optimizing for sovereignty?

2061
01:29:42,503 --> 01:29:43,543
Is there a shift there

2062
01:29:43,543 --> 01:29:45,423
and does that actually change anything

2063
01:29:45,423 --> 01:29:46,602
if you flip it?

2064
01:29:46,743 --> 01:29:48,083
I think that's another thread

2065
01:29:48,083 --> 01:29:50,343
that I'd like to all think more about.

2066
01:29:50,463 --> 01:29:51,523
I'd love to discuss with you guys.

2067
01:29:51,602 --> 01:29:52,323
Good topic for next week.

2068
01:29:52,583 --> 01:29:55,203
On the next Presidio Sovereignty Jam.

2069
01:29:55,443 --> 01:29:55,823
Yeah!

2070
01:29:57,243 --> 01:29:57,683
PSJ.

2071
01:29:58,163 --> 01:29:58,602
PSJ.

2072
01:29:58,723 --> 01:30:00,563
That's a roll-off of the tongue plate as well.

2073
01:30:00,823 --> 01:30:03,723
Isn't there like a famous European football team

2074
01:30:03,723 --> 01:30:06,083
that PSJ or something?

2075
01:30:06,503 --> 01:30:06,763
I don't know.

2076
01:30:06,763 --> 01:30:07,283
PSJ.

2077
01:30:07,283 --> 01:30:08,403
if not

2078
01:30:08,403 --> 01:30:09,383
once we have more leisure time

2079
01:30:09,383 --> 01:30:09,743
there will be

2080
01:30:09,743 --> 01:30:10,503
oh my gosh

2081
01:30:10,503 --> 01:30:11,663
we need to level up our

2082
01:30:11,663 --> 01:30:13,102
sports in the show

2083
01:30:13,102 --> 01:30:13,623
exactly

2084
01:30:13,623 --> 01:30:16,263
DK we're gonna put you in charge

2085
01:30:16,263 --> 01:30:16,783
of that for next week

2086
01:30:16,783 --> 01:30:18,223
bye bye

2087
01:30:18,223 --> 01:30:18,823
alright guys

2088
01:30:18,823 --> 01:30:19,283
okay

2089
01:30:19,283 --> 01:30:20,063
bye bye

2090
01:30:20,063 --> 01:30:21,143
bye everyone

2091
01:30:21,143 --> 01:30:24,283
hold on