1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,960
All right, welcome to another edition of Presidio Bitcoin Jam.

2
00:00:04,100 --> 00:00:04,520
We're back.

3
00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:05,360
How are you guys doing?

4
00:00:05,620 --> 00:00:05,920
Great.

5
00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:06,820
It's Friday.

6
00:00:07,220 --> 00:00:07,620
It's a Friday.

7
00:00:07,820 --> 00:00:08,520
It's a beautiful Friday.

8
00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:09,600
It's so gorgeous out.

9
00:00:09,660 --> 00:00:10,080
Oh my God.

10
00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:10,720
I love it.

11
00:00:10,900 --> 00:00:13,400
On a day like today, San Francisco, promised land.

12
00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:14,180
It shines, yeah.

13
00:00:14,220 --> 00:00:14,560
That's amazing.

14
00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:16,820
I just like walked over, got my orange.

15
00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:17,980
I'm just feeling good in the sun.

16
00:00:18,140 --> 00:00:18,500
Oh yeah.

17
00:00:19,020 --> 00:00:19,380
You did.

18
00:00:19,500 --> 00:00:20,800
A little bit of a breeze.

19
00:00:21,140 --> 00:00:21,420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20
00:00:21,420 --> 00:00:22,200
I climbed Mount Tam.

21
00:00:22,460 --> 00:00:22,760
You did?

22
00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:23,260
Did you really?

23
00:00:23,540 --> 00:00:24,240
That's my new Friday.

24
00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:24,600
This morning?

25
00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:25,700
On my bike.

26
00:00:25,940 --> 00:00:27,760
Oh, I saw your Strava.

27
00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:28,520
Was that?

28
00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:29,120
I didn't really.

29
00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,280
I mean, I went to Rock Springs.

30
00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:32,580
I got 2,000 feet.

31
00:00:32,780 --> 00:00:33,020
Okay.

32
00:00:33,220 --> 00:00:33,920
You got called out.

33
00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:35,920
But, um...

34
00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:37,100
I wasn't studying it.

35
00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:37,860
I looked at your pictures.

36
00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:38,380
It was nice.

37
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:40,120
It was great.

38
00:00:40,380 --> 00:00:45,240
I mean, it was, like, very foggy where my house is, but above 700 feet, beautiful blue sky.

39
00:00:45,660 --> 00:00:45,860
Wow.

40
00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:46,020
Yeah.

41
00:00:46,260 --> 00:00:48,900
That's unusual, though, because, like, San Francisco is usually foggier.

42
00:00:48,900 --> 00:00:52,860
Well, it's common on Tam to be foggy in Tam Valley.

43
00:00:53,700 --> 00:00:57,260
And then above 700 feet, blue sky.

44
00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:57,720
Nice.

45
00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:02,500
well I've been thrilled because I've been sitting in my garden and you guys know I've been getting

46
00:01:02,500 --> 00:01:07,540
really into this whole farming yeah yeah gardening whatever farming sounds part of your self-sovereignty

47
00:01:07,540 --> 00:01:14,860
part of my umbrella it really is though and uh I what are you farming all kinds of stuff okay I

48
00:01:14,860 --> 00:01:19,960
don't know what I can discuss in the show uh no I actually so California it's all legal well it's

49
00:01:19,960 --> 00:01:22,640
California it's all legal and it's California so it's perfect weather all year round because like

50
00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,300
we kept looking at the seeds and be like you're supposed to plant this in this season I was like

51
00:01:25,300 --> 00:01:27,100
I think you just plant anything anytime in San Francisco.

52
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,060
But what's great is, yeah, I'm trying a variety of different things.

53
00:01:31,100 --> 00:01:35,740
So I have some greens, and then I have some gourds, like squash and pumpkins.

54
00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,460
The mistake I think I've made, but I like to just try stuff and see what sticks, right,

55
00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:42,300
is I probably planted too much.

56
00:01:42,300 --> 00:01:46,800
And so we're going to see this sort of, I don't know, competition among the plants play out

57
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,100
for who's going to survive or not.

58
00:01:48,340 --> 00:01:48,820
But it's great.

59
00:01:48,940 --> 00:01:52,860
And I really do feel like, and I told you guys about this kind of wild book,

60
00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:54,420
The Secret Life of Plants.

61
00:01:54,420 --> 00:01:55,300
I feel a connection with them.

62
00:01:55,660 --> 00:01:57,480
And it's great because we had so much rain,

63
00:01:57,680 --> 00:01:58,640
although I had to travel in the rain,

64
00:01:58,680 --> 00:01:59,180
which we'll talk about.

65
00:01:59,260 --> 00:02:00,500
That was super not fun.

66
00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:02,700
But like with the rain comes all the life.

67
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,360
And so I just feel like every time I walk back in there,

68
00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,100
it's just like exploding with oxygen.

69
00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:08,700
So fresh, so clean.

70
00:02:08,920 --> 00:02:09,060
Yeah.

71
00:02:09,300 --> 00:02:09,640
It's amazing.

72
00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:10,680
It's good.

73
00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:11,960
So can you do,

74
00:02:12,220 --> 00:02:16,480
are there seasons in California for like when gourd season is

75
00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:17,340
or can you just do that?

76
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,440
So DK, I mean, the answer is probably yes,

77
00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:20,780
but I literally just like,

78
00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:21,160
I've just,

79
00:02:21,340 --> 00:02:23,220
I've done zero research.

80
00:02:23,220 --> 00:02:25,020
but it's great

81
00:02:25,020 --> 00:02:25,900
because everything is sprouting

82
00:02:25,900 --> 00:02:26,620
and now again

83
00:02:26,620 --> 00:02:27,160
what's crazy

84
00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:27,520
is you'll see

85
00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:28,440
I have a tomato plant

86
00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:29,400
now the tomato plant

87
00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:30,760
is kind of coming over the beets

88
00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,060
and kind of stealing the lights

89
00:02:32,060 --> 00:02:33,340
I need to get more space

90
00:02:33,340 --> 00:02:34,340
can you bring tomatoes in

91
00:02:34,340 --> 00:02:35,500
because my dad

92
00:02:35,500 --> 00:02:36,340
grows tomatoes

93
00:02:36,340 --> 00:02:37,340
when I get a tomato

94
00:02:37,340 --> 00:02:37,780
they are like

95
00:02:37,780 --> 00:02:38,620
10 times better

96
00:02:38,620 --> 00:02:39,620
than store bought tomatoes

97
00:02:39,620 --> 00:02:40,080
it's so true

98
00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:40,740
it is like

99
00:02:40,740 --> 00:02:41,400
shockingly

100
00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,300
shockingly better

101
00:02:43,300 --> 00:02:44,360
I have one tomato plant

102
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:45,380
and no tomatoes yet

103
00:02:45,380 --> 00:02:45,840
when I do

104
00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:46,580
I will bring you one

105
00:02:46,580 --> 00:02:48,100
or we can even share one here

106
00:02:48,100 --> 00:02:48,900
perhaps on the pod

107
00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:50,100
you can watch us live

108
00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:51,220
but there are

109
00:02:51,220 --> 00:02:52,160
you put salt on your tomato

110
00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:53,300
Yeah, sometimes.

111
00:02:53,660 --> 00:02:55,040
Is that an Iowa thing?

112
00:02:55,640 --> 00:02:56,720
It's an Italy thing.

113
00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:57,300
Olive oil.

114
00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:58,880
Olive oil, burrata.

115
00:02:59,620 --> 00:02:59,680
Yeah.

116
00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:01,460
It just means salt.

117
00:03:01,980 --> 00:03:02,640
You can do that too.

118
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:03,440
Just salt.

119
00:03:03,540 --> 00:03:03,620
Sure.

120
00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:04,720
Yeah, that sounds Southern.

121
00:03:06,300 --> 00:03:07,000
Steve is Midwest.

122
00:03:07,180 --> 00:03:07,960
Memphis, Iowa.

123
00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:08,600
Yeah, exactly.

124
00:03:09,220 --> 00:03:09,940
Memphis and Iowa State.

125
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:10,580
I always got the connection

126
00:03:10,580 --> 00:03:11,340
with a little fried chicken

127
00:03:11,340 --> 00:03:13,140
and a little tomato.

128
00:03:13,660 --> 00:03:14,000
But anyways,

129
00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:15,320
but I think the cool,

130
00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:15,780
so yes,

131
00:03:15,860 --> 00:03:16,420
so I've noticed

132
00:03:16,420 --> 00:03:18,360
our dog, Roy,

133
00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:19,420
shout out to our baby Roy.

134
00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,020
He loves like the spinach

135
00:03:21,020 --> 00:03:22,060
and the arugula

136
00:03:22,060 --> 00:03:26,100
the greens and it tastes to your point so much fresher than crap you get at the supermarket

137
00:03:26,100 --> 00:03:30,400
so anyway so self-sovereignty but also just like i think there's so much you can learn

138
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:35,720
and study about just the nature of like everything like software development like you're seeing in

139
00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,440
real time ecosystems emerge in the same way that we're like i i feel like i'm learning more about

140
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,420
in many ways open source software development from my uh from my garden than like almost anything

141
00:03:45,420 --> 00:03:49,300
else because you see you plant these seeds and something's more like core or not

142
00:03:49,300 --> 00:03:53,660
my plants would never be knots

143
00:03:53,660 --> 00:03:59,820
that's offensive um but yeah does pbj have a stance on this stuff

144
00:03:59,820 --> 00:04:06,460
i don't want to get into that again my plants are much more fun um but anyways yeah so

145
00:04:06,460 --> 00:04:10,760
i highly recommend gardening i've got i've got a pretty productive lemon tree

146
00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:15,060
i think have i given you any lemons we got meyer lemons that just grow like crazy so we're always

147
00:04:15,060 --> 00:04:16,180
trying to give them away.

148
00:04:16,580 --> 00:04:16,860
Nice.

149
00:04:16,860 --> 00:04:17,580
They wouldn't go so well

150
00:04:17,580 --> 00:04:18,040
in green tea,

151
00:04:18,140 --> 00:04:19,640
but other teas.

152
00:04:19,860 --> 00:04:20,040
Okay.

153
00:04:20,260 --> 00:04:21,060
Some water, too.

154
00:04:21,140 --> 00:04:21,360
Water.

155
00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:21,760
Lemon water.

156
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:22,840
But we do this

157
00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:23,640
in everything we cook.

158
00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:25,500
Well, if you bring a bunch in,

159
00:04:25,540 --> 00:04:26,440
we can make lemonade.

160
00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:27,160
Yeah, yeah.

161
00:04:27,380 --> 00:04:28,460
And when life hands you lemons.

162
00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:29,000
There you go.

163
00:04:29,840 --> 00:04:30,940
DK makes us lemon water.

164
00:04:31,940 --> 00:04:34,060
And we want to do persimmon.

165
00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:35,380
I think you can do persimmon around here.

166
00:04:35,380 --> 00:04:36,220
What is persimmon?

167
00:04:36,620 --> 00:04:37,380
Like an orange?

168
00:04:38,140 --> 00:04:39,360
It's a little more like

169
00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:40,500
maybe an apple pear,

170
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:41,400
but it's orange colored.

171
00:04:41,580 --> 00:04:41,760
Oh, yeah.

172
00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,200
But it's kind of sweet.

173
00:04:43,420 --> 00:04:44,280
Put cinnamon on it.

174
00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:46,300
We get them at the farmer's market all the time.

175
00:04:46,420 --> 00:04:46,780
All right.

176
00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:47,180
Really good.

177
00:04:48,620 --> 00:04:49,060
Okay.

178
00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:54,160
But we're here to talk about the signal from the noise.

179
00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:54,700
Ooh.

180
00:04:55,060 --> 00:04:55,320
Ooh.

181
00:04:55,540 --> 00:04:56,060
Separate them.

182
00:04:56,100 --> 00:04:56,840
Did you practice that?

183
00:04:56,980 --> 00:04:57,140
No.

184
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,420
This man operates in real time.

185
00:05:02,260 --> 00:05:03,480
There's no prep.

186
00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:04,340
A real showman.

187
00:05:05,740 --> 00:05:06,180
Yeah.

188
00:05:06,660 --> 00:05:07,780
So, Signal.

189
00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:08,740
What's the website?

190
00:05:08,980 --> 00:05:10,520
So, I think it was Signal for Bitcoin.

191
00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:11,180
Bitcoin for Signal.

192
00:05:11,260 --> 00:05:11,880
Or Bitcoin for Signal.

193
00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:12,740
Bitcoin for Signal.

194
00:05:12,740 --> 00:05:16,140
Which be careful, because when you click on it, it looks like it's Signal's website.

195
00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,720
I'm like, oh, Signal's incorporating Bitcoin. Interesting.

196
00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:20,860
And then I was like, okay, I don't know anything about it.

197
00:05:20,860 --> 00:05:22,460
This is an advocacy campaign.

198
00:05:23,300 --> 00:05:29,020
It's branded as if it's Signal, but it's actually somebody else who's not involved in Signal directly,

199
00:05:29,140 --> 00:05:31,900
but wants to contribute to making Signal more Bitcoin-centric.

200
00:05:32,620 --> 00:05:32,800
Yeah.

201
00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:39,920
I believe Jack's been a proponent in pushing Signal to adopt Bitcoin and cashew for a while.

202
00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,780
at BTC Plus Plus in Berlin,

203
00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,580
what, two weeks ago now?

204
00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:45,780
One of the, actually,

205
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:47,880
I think the hackathon project that won

206
00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,280
was adding Cashew and eCash

207
00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:53,200
to a fork of Signal.

208
00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:55,500
And Signal's all open source, right?

209
00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,060
So anyone could fork it and add it.

210
00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:57,320
Yep.

211
00:05:57,540 --> 00:05:57,660
Yeah.

212
00:05:58,380 --> 00:05:59,640
And so, and then they,

213
00:06:00,140 --> 00:06:02,860
I actually don't know who they is.

214
00:06:03,100 --> 00:06:04,960
Eric, who visited

215
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:06,600
PresidioBitcoin a couple weeks ago

216
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:07,380
for the design week,

217
00:06:07,620 --> 00:06:08,560
and he works on Cashew

218
00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:09,400
as a designer,

219
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:10,780
part of the Bitcoin design community.

220
00:06:11,620 --> 00:06:14,520
I think he worked on the website design

221
00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,000
as well as the design in the app.

222
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:19,060
And I'm sure Cali was involved.

223
00:06:19,220 --> 00:06:20,680
I don't know who all was involved other than them,

224
00:06:20,820 --> 00:06:23,700
but they launched this website,

225
00:06:24,060 --> 00:06:28,080
which at least, I think it's an advocacy website

226
00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,900
trying to encourage Signal to do that.

227
00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:34,760
One notable thing about the website

228
00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,820
is that they use the Bitcoin B symbol instead of the sats.

229
00:06:38,420 --> 00:06:39,480
That's everywhere now, by the way.

230
00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,620
More and more people are adopting that.

231
00:06:44,020 --> 00:06:45,880
Which, by the way, is a clarifying question

232
00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:47,700
because I'm seeing more and more people.

233
00:06:48,140 --> 00:06:49,720
I've seen it now, obviously, with Square,

234
00:06:49,780 --> 00:06:51,840
which we'll talk about now with some of the cashew stuff.

235
00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:53,520
I think Albie even has like that now too.

236
00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,540
How do you feel about using that symbol but calling it sats?

237
00:07:00,740 --> 00:07:02,260
I'm very much at peace with that.

238
00:07:03,060 --> 00:07:04,980
The evolution of my own thinking,

239
00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,700
and I think other advocates of the Bitcoin B symbol

240
00:07:07,700 --> 00:07:11,060
is that people can speak whatever they want.

241
00:07:11,460 --> 00:07:11,800
I like it.

242
00:07:11,860 --> 00:07:13,160
So don't police people's speech.

243
00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:14,480
People can call it SAT,

244
00:07:14,820 --> 00:07:15,180
corn,

245
00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:16,100
coins,

246
00:07:16,260 --> 00:07:16,960
Bitcoin,

247
00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:18,400
you know,

248
00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:19,120
bits,

249
00:07:19,260 --> 00:07:19,480
whatever.

250
00:07:19,860 --> 00:07:20,560
Say what you want.

251
00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,260
What's the Gen Alpha way to do that?

252
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:23,460
What is this?

253
00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:25,520
It's like the Gen Alpha way to do like this.

254
00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:26,180
Oh, really?

255
00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:26,520
Yeah.

256
00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:27,400
Why do you know this?

257
00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,620
We hosted dinner with some kids.

258
00:07:31,340 --> 00:07:31,820
Right.

259
00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:32,740
Okay.

260
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:33,780
Some friends.

261
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:37,000
Something every day.

262
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,340
Like 22, not like 12.

263
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:42,160
All right, all right.

264
00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:43,380
No judgment, no judgment.

265
00:07:44,420 --> 00:07:45,820
But yeah, so say what you want.

266
00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,800
But the main push and thrust, I would say,

267
00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:50,920
is like in the visual UI,

268
00:07:51,340 --> 00:07:56,380
show the Bitcoin B symbol and not the word SAT.

269
00:07:56,380 --> 00:08:01,100
And like everyone who's seen that,

270
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,420
I think instantly gets converted.

271
00:08:03,700 --> 00:08:04,640
Yeah, me too. I love it.

272
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:09,900
So it's far less controversial than like sort of demanding that people stop saying sats or whatever.

273
00:08:10,500 --> 00:08:15,680
So I personally, I was saying, I went through a period of time not saying sats just to see how it felt.

274
00:08:16,180 --> 00:08:18,440
And now I say sats.

275
00:08:19,180 --> 00:08:19,920
Nothing wrong with saying sats.

276
00:08:19,940 --> 00:08:20,800
All right, all right.

277
00:08:21,060 --> 00:08:21,160
Okay.

278
00:08:21,980 --> 00:08:22,580
It's simple though.

279
00:08:22,700 --> 00:08:23,040
I like it.

280
00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:23,460
Yeah.

281
00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:25,660
So that was notable from the website.

282
00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,720
But let's talk more about Bitcoin and Signal.

283
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,840
actually going back to

284
00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:32,760
all the way back to 2019

285
00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:34,820
when I first started at Blocked

286
00:08:34,820 --> 00:08:37,380
and Spiral

287
00:08:37,380 --> 00:08:39,180
Square Crypto

288
00:08:39,180 --> 00:08:39,640
at the time

289
00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:41,160
I met

290
00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,820
at that time it's like oh

291
00:08:43,820 --> 00:08:45,700
I want Bitcoin and Signal

292
00:08:45,700 --> 00:08:47,700
I was already a heavy Signal user

293
00:08:47,700 --> 00:08:48,920
and I want Bitcoin and Signal

294
00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,420
so I reached out to Moxie

295
00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:53,520
who was still at Signal at the time

296
00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,640
and met with him, he was in San Francisco

297
00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:56,860
so we met for a coffee

298
00:08:56,860 --> 00:09:01,400
and I made the pitch

299
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:02,860
but also just wanted to hear his perspective

300
00:09:02,860 --> 00:09:06,220
and he had a very reasonable perspective.

301
00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:07,820
He wasn't against it at all.

302
00:09:08,060 --> 00:09:11,140
And this is pre-MobileCoin.

303
00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,160
He might, pre-MobileCoin in the product.

304
00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,240
I think he had already was working

305
00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,100
with Josh Goldbart on MobileCoin.

306
00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,020
But I didn't know that at the time.

307
00:09:24,020 --> 00:09:31,200
But he said the three things that were important to him and for Signal were all reasonable things.

308
00:09:32,180 --> 00:09:32,860
Privacy.

309
00:09:34,980 --> 00:09:36,720
The self-custody, like managing keys.

310
00:09:36,860 --> 00:09:38,960
It needs to be brain dead simple.

311
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,360
They can't have their users losing their money because they mismanaged their keys.

312
00:09:45,700 --> 00:09:52,800
And at the same time, Signal didn't want to be a financial services company or MSB, so self-custody.

313
00:09:52,800 --> 00:10:00,480
And then the third was just UX scaling fee, like low fees, and scaled up all the users.

314
00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,180
You know, all that's like totally reasonable.

315
00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:09,880
And if they were to help you manage your private keys, would that cause them to become an MSB?

316
00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,440
Or you can do that without becoming an MSB.

317
00:10:12,660 --> 00:10:17,300
Well, I just mean, you can protect the user from losing their keys if you don't give them keys.

318
00:10:17,660 --> 00:10:22,060
So if, like, Cash App, like, you can't lose your keys because Cash App has the keys.

319
00:10:22,060 --> 00:10:23,040
but there also could be

320
00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:24,600
but cash apps are MSB

321
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:24,880
right

322
00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,240
Signal doesn't want to be an MSB

323
00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,920
so I don't know if I got your question

324
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:31,460
so Signal doesn't want to be an MSB

325
00:10:31,460 --> 00:10:33,580
that suggests like some variation

326
00:10:33,580 --> 00:10:35,340
or flavor of non-custodial

327
00:10:35,340 --> 00:10:36,160
or self-custodial

328
00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:37,900
which we can get into that topic later too

329
00:10:37,900 --> 00:10:38,880
because that continues to

330
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:40,240
like if Signal were to say like

331
00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,380
hey we'll let you log in with your phone number

332
00:10:43,380 --> 00:10:46,500
and we'll help decrypt keys that you have

333
00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:47,740
you can also have the 12 words

334
00:10:47,740 --> 00:10:49,660
and go away on a different place

335
00:10:49,660 --> 00:10:50,800
so we're not like controlling it

336
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,020
we're just like helping you

337
00:10:52,020 --> 00:10:52,440
with it?

338
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,080
There's a variety of solutions to back up

339
00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:57,020
your private keys.

340
00:10:58,180 --> 00:10:59,920
Photon Project and MoonWallet

341
00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:01,460
as a solution and BitKey as a solution.

342
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:03,640
And if you do that, you don't run into

343
00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,840
any risk, really, of

344
00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:07,800
MSP. Well, again, it's a gray area.

345
00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:09,840
For MoonWallet, I think

346
00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,760
they let you just back it up and encrypt it in your

347
00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:13,560
Apple Drive or Google Drive, I think.

348
00:11:13,860 --> 00:11:15,120
Which I think is probably fine.

349
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:16,580
Oh, for sure.

350
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,700
There's a variety of solutions on how to manage your own

351
00:11:19,700 --> 00:11:21,700
private keys, and if it's self-custody, then it's not

352
00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:22,260
an MSB.

353
00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:25,620
Anyway, this is six years ago.

354
00:11:26,940 --> 00:11:27,720
There's been a lot

355
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:28,860
of progress in the last six years.

356
00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,900
Anyway, his criteria was

357
00:11:31,900 --> 00:11:33,780
he doesn't want their users to lose

358
00:11:33,780 --> 00:11:35,440
money, he doesn't want to be an MSB.

359
00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:37,280
That's reasonable. So all those are reasonable.

360
00:11:39,340 --> 00:11:41,360
And then over time,

361
00:11:41,780 --> 00:11:43,700
and then I quickly learned how

362
00:11:43,700 --> 00:11:45,780
much work we have

363
00:11:45,780 --> 00:11:47,660
to do to be able to deliver

364
00:11:47,660 --> 00:11:49,500
on those three requirements.

365
00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,420
The good news is, if you look at

366
00:11:51,420 --> 00:11:54,040
the past six years, there's been tremendous progress.

367
00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:55,900
On all those fronts.

368
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:56,780
On all those fronts.

369
00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,380
But again, as we've talked about on several episodes in the show,

370
00:12:01,620 --> 00:12:05,880
there's still no one solution that checks all boxes super strongly.

371
00:12:06,140 --> 00:12:06,760
There's trade-offs.

372
00:12:07,740 --> 00:12:09,140
Did they have a fourth requirement, though?

373
00:12:09,780 --> 00:12:11,680
Which was to do a giant cash grab in the process?

374
00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:12,080
Yeah.

375
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:20,280
Well, then in the interim, they integrated MobileCoin.

376
00:12:21,420 --> 00:12:25,840
which I always thought was a joke

377
00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,160
for all the typical pre-mine token reasons.

378
00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,320
But what MobileCoin did deliver though,

379
00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,760
it was based on SGX just like Signal is.

380
00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,500
It did offer nice privacy properties.

381
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:43,500
It offered a way to scale and provide self-custody.

382
00:12:46,140 --> 00:12:50,260
But to the degree that you trust SGX.

383
00:12:51,420 --> 00:12:55,900
But at the end of the day, there's no demand for mobile.

384
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:56,940
No one's ever heard of mobile.

385
00:12:56,940 --> 00:12:58,200
There's no demand for it.

386
00:12:58,560 --> 00:12:59,580
Is it even, I don't even know.

387
00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:01,020
Can you turn it on in Signal?

388
00:13:01,220 --> 00:13:01,980
I've never even seen it.

389
00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:03,480
Where is that?

390
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:04,800
Is it buried in settings?

391
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:05,680
Yeah.

392
00:13:05,980 --> 00:13:07,900
I mean, if you go to settings, there's a wallet.

393
00:13:08,020 --> 00:13:08,400
I'm curious.

394
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:14,080
But do you have to buy it at some exchange and then deposit it into your Signal wallet?

395
00:13:14,580 --> 00:13:14,800
Yeah.

396
00:13:15,540 --> 00:13:17,720
So that seems a lot of friction.

397
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:18,120
Yeah.

398
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,660
I mean, it's not a mystery that it has not caught on.

399
00:13:21,860 --> 00:13:24,180
Do you think that the Signal team is kind of,

400
00:13:24,340 --> 00:13:26,980
I saw on the, was it bitcoinforsignal.org or whatever,

401
00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:28,920
on the website, they kind of made a claim that,

402
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,220
oh, like, mobile coin's not really going anywhere.

403
00:13:31,660 --> 00:13:34,040
And do you think that the Signal team

404
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:35,420
has come to that conclusion,

405
00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:37,840
or do you think they still are pushing mobile coin

406
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:38,300
to be a thing?

407
00:13:39,460 --> 00:13:40,960
I know as much as you do.

408
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:41,420
Oh, yeah.

409
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:43,580
Well, I'm curious, has anyone...

410
00:13:43,580 --> 00:13:46,600
I highly doubt, I mean, I have no idea.

411
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:56,060
But I would guess, I mean, Moxie, as far as I know, no longer involved in Signal, and Meredith has been the CEO or president or whatever, the leader for several years.

412
00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,800
I would guess that Meredith has no, she probably wasn't part of the pre-mined token.

413
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,340
She didn't get rich off of it.

414
00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:04,520
So she probably doesn't have any mobile coin baggage.

415
00:14:04,780 --> 00:14:10,160
So I would guess she's just like, it's not a priority, let's get rid of this thing.

416
00:14:10,580 --> 00:14:12,120
That would be my guess.

417
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,180
And was that all before, I think, was it Jan Kuhn from WhatsApp

418
00:14:15,180 --> 00:14:17,720
came in and gave him 50 million bucks or something?

419
00:14:18,420 --> 00:14:19,740
That predated all the stuff.

420
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:21,020
That was all before the multiple coins.

421
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:21,600
Yeah.

422
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:23,560
So I'm curious.

423
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,300
Obviously, I don't think it looks like either of you guys have used MobileCoin.

424
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,680
Is anyone listening to the pod, please drop in the chat if you have.

425
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:30,920
Like, I've never seen anyone do it.

426
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,800
I'm curious if there's a single MobileCoin user out there.

427
00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:35,780
I'd be curious to learn about that.

428
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:37,660
But if not...

429
00:14:37,660 --> 00:14:40,060
Despite us having a very large live audience,

430
00:14:40,060 --> 00:14:43,080
I'm still guessing no one listening has used mobile coin.

431
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:49,140
This is a scientific study where if no one in our extremely large live audience answers,

432
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,660
like clearly Signal, this is your signal to switch.

433
00:14:52,620 --> 00:14:57,220
But yeah, I mean, and I think this is such an important story over and over.

434
00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,060
I mean, I have a ton of questions for where Signal ended up.

435
00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:03,220
And by the way, I think we mentioned last week, Meredith Whitaker is now on Oster,

436
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,300
which seems like a great, great sign.

437
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,700
So she can see the power of like, oh, wait, you know, there's already, you know,

438
00:15:08,700 --> 00:15:12,000
hundreds of thousands of users that have access to Bitcoin on here and stuff like that.

439
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:17,260
But I think this is like the one message to just hammer home over and over and over again to

440
00:15:17,260 --> 00:15:21,560
everyone is open networks versus closed networks. And I know we'll talk more about this in other

441
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:26,340
contacts later today, but like if I could just like hammer one idea home to big tech because

442
00:15:26,340 --> 00:15:30,960
they think about how to like integrate payments into their apps, you can either adopt an intranet,

443
00:15:31,060 --> 00:15:36,200
which is your network or a private network where you can adopt the internet. We all know how this

444
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,980
story plays out intranet you don't get network effects people don't use your product there's

445
00:15:40,980 --> 00:15:46,520
always going to be a wall goal your aol internet you win novell netware yeah who in our audience

446
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,960
have you heard of nobel network no i thought really i thought that was like feel on fuss

447
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:56,340
seriously yeah i don't know that's interesting that's right that shows an age gap between those

448
00:15:56,340 --> 00:16:05,500
novell wetware net netware it was a ipx it was like a dominant it was the dominant networking

449
00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:05,980
software.

450
00:16:07,100 --> 00:16:07,760
Did you use this thing?

451
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:08,840
I mean, I knew of it.

452
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,860
In the early 90s.

453
00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:14,900
I was doing dial-up stuff.

454
00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:17,360
It was the dominant networking software,

455
00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:19,340
and then Microsoft had their own

456
00:16:19,340 --> 00:16:21,260
networking software, which tried to compete,

457
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,180
and then ultimately, obviously,

458
00:16:23,180 --> 00:16:25,080
the internet won out.

459
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:26,180
I mean, I started...

460
00:16:26,180 --> 00:16:29,180
But I played video games that were...

461
00:16:29,180 --> 00:16:30,000
It was competing at, like,

462
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:31,440
TCP, IP, layer.

463
00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:32,580
Really?

464
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,060
Wow, it was competing with TCP, IP.

465
00:16:35,060 --> 00:16:37,860
IPX, I recall.

466
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:38,420
Okay.

467
00:16:38,780 --> 00:16:42,240
I mean, this is a long time ago, but IPX, I believe, was it?

468
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:42,520
The company was behind it.

469
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:43,400
Novell.

470
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:44,720
Have you never heard of Novell?

471
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:45,060
Never heard of Novell.

472
00:16:45,060 --> 00:16:45,820
No, Novell is.

473
00:16:46,420 --> 00:16:47,320
This is my point.

474
00:16:47,340 --> 00:16:48,260
It was Cisco, right?

475
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:48,620
Signal.

476
00:16:48,860 --> 00:16:49,980
Do you want to be Novell?

477
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,220
Every tech company, do you want to be Novell or do you want to be Google?

478
00:16:53,460 --> 00:16:54,260
Like, come on.

479
00:16:54,540 --> 00:16:55,300
I've never heard of this.

480
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:55,740
Yeah.

481
00:16:56,180 --> 00:16:59,960
Anyway, we'll do a history lesson for the young people.

482
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:04,120
Just so you guys know, I mean, I started, my dad was like a reasonably early adopter of

483
00:17:04,120 --> 00:17:06,240
stuff on the internet because he's into like the weird

484
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,320
long tail of comic books and like bizarre

485
00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,160
art stuff. So he was an early user on eBay

486
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,080
but I probably watched him use that around

487
00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,200
95 or 96. Have you heard of Sun

488
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:15,980
Microsystem? Yes, I do. Eric Schmidt. Okay.

489
00:17:17,100 --> 00:17:18,380
I mean, I believe

490
00:17:18,380 --> 00:17:20,100
it. If I recall correctly, Sun

491
00:17:20,100 --> 00:17:22,200
bought Novell when Eric was

492
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:23,220
the CEO. Sounds right.

493
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,340
And then he became

494
00:17:25,340 --> 00:17:27,600
CEO of Google.

495
00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:30,120
But I do remember that great

496
00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:32,080
I always go back to this clip. I don't know if it was

497
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:33,320
95 or 96.

498
00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:38,760
of Bill Gates being interviewed by one of the Letterman

499
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:40,060
or one of these late night shows or something.

500
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:41,740
And even he just kept going, I was like,

501
00:17:41,820 --> 00:17:42,920
the information is super hot.

502
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:43,500
Right, right.

503
00:17:43,740 --> 00:17:45,180
And then you just look back at that and you're like,

504
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:50,820
just play that clip for Stripe or Signal for anyone

505
00:17:50,820 --> 00:17:52,860
that's like, do I do it at my own intranet

506
00:17:52,860 --> 00:17:53,480
or go to the internet?

507
00:17:53,740 --> 00:17:54,880
Yeah, totally agree.

508
00:17:55,220 --> 00:17:55,740
Yeah, anyways.

509
00:17:56,140 --> 00:17:57,980
So, okay, so Signal, you know,

510
00:17:58,040 --> 00:17:59,660
flirted with a mobile coin that didn't go anywhere.

511
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:00,320
Surprise, surprise.

512
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,080
Yeah, and so there's a push to integrate

513
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,140
Bitcoin, but let's talk about the specific campaign,

514
00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:12,100
which is adding Cashew. So going back

515
00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:15,920
to the criteria Moxie set forth, which I think is completely

516
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:20,120
reasonable. If I were in charge of Signal product, I'd demand

517
00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:23,980
the exact same. So privacy, well,

518
00:18:24,420 --> 00:18:28,300
at least the no KYC version of Cashew

519
00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:30,380
checks that box quite nicely.

520
00:18:30,380 --> 00:18:33,620
and then the

521
00:18:33,620 --> 00:18:36,680
scaling UX

522
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,780
low fees checks out

523
00:18:38,780 --> 00:18:39,660
box nicely

524
00:18:39,660 --> 00:18:42,380
then the

525
00:18:42,380 --> 00:18:44,120
custody, self-custody

526
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:46,800
signal not being an MSP

527
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:48,960
this is where it gets a lot more interesting

528
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,000
so it's not self-custody

529
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,540
even though

530
00:18:52,540 --> 00:18:55,180
some cash shoe and e-cash proponents

531
00:18:55,180 --> 00:18:57,040
claim it's self-custody

532
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,160
that's a whole discussion

533
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,020
topic we can have. So we can go down that thread. Before we do that,

534
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,180
I mean, what is definitely clear is that some

535
00:19:07,180 --> 00:19:11,220
third party is running a server and

536
00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:15,180
has the private keys to the Bitcoin. So not the end users.

537
00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:19,280
That is factual, right? Does the distinction come down to what

538
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,200
you consider money? Like, if you consider Bitcoin money, then

539
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,320
Let's get into that topic in a sec. I mean, let's definitely talk about that, but I just want to get to the other point,

540
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,640
which is who's going to run the Mint, right?

541
00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:32,000
Yes, this is the money shot question.

542
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:33,440
Who's going to run the Mint?

543
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,060
And then we can also talk about is it self-custody or not.

544
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,560
I think the most critical question here, though,

545
00:19:38,580 --> 00:19:40,180
is who's going to run the Mint?

546
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:42,500
Where does the yield come from?

547
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:49,480
Because running a Mint without KYC,

548
00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:54,960
I'm not a lawyer, but I think that's definitively illegal.

549
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,460
and so

550
00:19:57,460 --> 00:19:58,840
you're

551
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,360
a regulated company

552
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:02,740
is not going to do that

553
00:20:02,740 --> 00:20:04,900
unless they run it as a

554
00:20:04,900 --> 00:20:07,180
unless they license it as an MSB

555
00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:09,420
and then have an AML program and do KYC

556
00:20:09,420 --> 00:20:10,580
that is one option but

557
00:20:10,580 --> 00:20:13,060
with Signal I don't think

558
00:20:13,060 --> 00:20:15,320
KYC is going to be an option

559
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,480
because Signal is all about privacy

560
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,420
right so it would need to be

561
00:20:19,420 --> 00:20:20,280
no KYC

562
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:21,960
cashew

563
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,920
so I don't think

564
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,780
an organization as prominent

565
00:20:27,780 --> 00:20:29,860
and US-based like Signal, I just

566
00:20:29,860 --> 00:20:31,920
don't see how they could possibly run

567
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:32,680
the mint

568
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,040
and think it's kosher and not get in trouble.

569
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:37,260
I just don't see how it's possible.

570
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:39,520
So there's certainly,

571
00:20:39,740 --> 00:20:40,920
I mean, there's

572
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,720
at least dozens, if not more, mints

573
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,700
that exist today. And I think

574
00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:47,700
there's a directory, a website

575
00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:49,660
you can go to and look at

576
00:20:49,660 --> 00:20:51,780
a bunch of mints and there's some

577
00:20:51,780 --> 00:20:53,640
kind of reputation scoring

578
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:59,020
of them and how long they've been alive.

579
00:20:59,020 --> 00:21:00,480
Is that something Bob built or something?

580
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:01,540
I think Bob's been involved.

581
00:21:02,220 --> 00:21:02,380
Yeah.

582
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,380
So there's no doubt,

583
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,220
like as an early adopter

584
00:21:09,220 --> 00:21:11,740
or advocate of this,

585
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,220
if you want to use any cashew wallet,

586
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,900
you can definitely use one of these mints you find.

587
00:21:17,420 --> 00:21:19,560
If you're just putting like sort of spending money

588
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,760
or just a small amount of money in it,

589
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:40,820
That seems completely reasonable to me. And then you get a lot of benefit from, you know, on the UX side, scaling, privacy, etc. And just usability. So, but if we look at it from Signal's perspective, like let's put our Signal product manager hat on, what would Signal do?

590
00:21:40,820 --> 00:21:43,200
because it doesn't seem realistic to me

591
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,480
that Signal will present to their users,

592
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,680
go to bitcoinmints.com and pick your mints.

593
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,380
I don't think they would do that.

594
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,840
I mean, it is debatable.

595
00:21:57,140 --> 00:22:00,000
I'd be interested in someone who takes the other side of that

596
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,400
and understand, but I'll try to steal.

597
00:22:02,660 --> 00:22:04,320
I won't steal the internet because I don't know.

598
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:05,700
I'll point out why.

599
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,980
Bob's UX had a pretty good version of this

600
00:22:07,980 --> 00:22:10,520
where it's just like pick a default, right?

601
00:22:10,820 --> 00:22:18,360
So I see two problems with picking a Mint from an Anon.

602
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,760
So you don't really know anything about who's running this Mint.

603
00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:23,840
Well, you do have the reputation.

604
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:24,580
It's not an Anon.

605
00:22:24,820 --> 00:22:25,060
It's a SuiN.

606
00:22:25,500 --> 00:22:26,600
Let's talk about that as well,

607
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,100
because that can easily be gamed and civil-attacked, etc.

608
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,540
But one concern is obviously that they just steal the money.

609
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:36,380
They rug-pull you.

610
00:22:36,380 --> 00:22:51,560
And so, again, if that's a small amount of money, like toy play money that you're using to do this or that, it's kind of like a bummer but not devastating to you as a user.

611
00:22:52,220 --> 00:22:57,160
But if you think about it from the perspective of Signal, imagine that happens to like 10% of their user base.

612
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,660
Like tens of millions of people all have their money stolen from them.

613
00:23:01,660 --> 00:23:09,700
Even if it's like two bucks or 12 bucks or 40 bucks or 50 bucks each, like that's not good for your brand.

614
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,260
It's not good for Bitcoin brand either.

615
00:23:12,380 --> 00:23:12,640
Right.

616
00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:13,100
It's terrible.

617
00:23:13,620 --> 00:23:22,760
So but the second concern is not theft, but just, you know, someone running a mint and they just they no longer want to run the mint.

618
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,640
Maybe they're worried about legal liability.

619
00:23:25,860 --> 00:23:27,700
Maybe they're just tired of doing the operations.

620
00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:30,780
Maybe it grows so much that they're like they get scared.

621
00:23:30,780 --> 00:23:39,260
Like, oh, I was okay with like, you know, $5,000 in this mint, but now there's $5 million or $50 million or $500 million in this mint.

622
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:41,980
And they get scared and they shut it down.

623
00:23:42,460 --> 00:23:45,120
So when they shut it down, how do you get your money back?

624
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:51,560
The only way you can do it, each user has to proactively take a step to move their money elsewhere.

625
00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:53,960
So what does that look like?

626
00:23:54,180 --> 00:23:56,860
I personally experienced this with the Feddy app.

627
00:23:56,860 --> 00:23:59,020
I, you know, put some money in Feddy.

628
00:23:59,020 --> 00:24:01,260
It was in some mint.

629
00:24:01,620 --> 00:24:04,920
And then that mint, they shut the mint down.

630
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:06,980
I literally don't know who was running the mint.

631
00:24:07,060 --> 00:24:07,800
They shut the mint down.

632
00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:09,160
I don't think they were trying to steal the money.

633
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,260
It was early and they just wanted to shut it down.

634
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,580
I didn't get a push notification, so I didn't even know.

635
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:14,980
And then my money's gone.

636
00:24:15,940 --> 00:24:22,080
Even if Signal were to do a push notification to like 100 million people saying,

637
00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:34,764
like move your money that a horrible user experience Then what percentage of those users Or yeah how big a window of time Like a min operator might give a 90 window or they might be just like I out

638
00:24:35,564 --> 00:24:36,804
Or, you know, one day or whatever.

639
00:24:37,064 --> 00:24:38,284
But even if it's a 90-day window,

640
00:24:38,404 --> 00:24:41,964
what percentage of the users actually see the notification,

641
00:24:42,144 --> 00:24:43,004
act on the notification?

642
00:24:43,144 --> 00:24:43,964
People are busy in their life.

643
00:24:44,504 --> 00:24:46,764
So I just don't see a credible way

644
00:24:46,764 --> 00:24:49,624
for Signal to run a min themselves

645
00:24:49,624 --> 00:24:52,944
or to rely on third parties.

646
00:24:52,944 --> 00:25:06,884
The only way that I could see them relying on a third party is like if a very established brand like Coinbase or Block or River or LightSpark or whatever, Fidelity, JPMorgan, whatever, some established brand that says we're running a Mint.

647
00:25:07,344 --> 00:25:10,264
But the only way they're going to be able to do that is at the KYC.

648
00:25:10,824 --> 00:25:12,924
And then Signal could just do it themselves as well.

649
00:25:13,384 --> 00:25:20,604
But again, that seems to break the requirement that Signal doesn't want to KYC their users.

650
00:25:20,604 --> 00:25:43,164
I have a ton of questions of this, but let's start with the KYC piece. Is it that they don't want to KYC the users at all? Or is there some middle ground? For example, you know, my understanding, I know Bob is much deeper on this, but is that there's still a lot of gray area on like what exactly you need, because you can KYC a user in and you have to have some kind of like risk management or AI system to like guess whatever, who's who.

651
00:25:43,164 --> 00:25:46,124
But like once you have the tokens out, the tokens are out.

652
00:25:46,344 --> 00:25:53,864
And to be clear, the tokens, and this will get in the South Coast thing, think of it as a Chuck E. Cheese token that's private, but it represents whatever's in the Met, Bitcoin dollars, whatever.

653
00:25:54,384 --> 00:26:02,224
So once you have the tokens, you know, if you have to KYC to get it, I wonder if that would be okay with Signal if you do it through their app.

654
00:26:02,844 --> 00:26:04,584
But once you have it, they don't know what you're doing with it.

655
00:26:04,944 --> 00:26:05,724
And they can't.

656
00:26:05,764 --> 00:26:06,944
Like that's by definition.

657
00:26:07,084 --> 00:26:08,604
So maybe there's a middle ground.

658
00:26:08,604 --> 00:26:13,364
But just, I actually don't even, I mean, historically with Signal, all you have to provide is your phone number.

659
00:26:13,584 --> 00:26:14,084
And I think they might.

660
00:26:14,084 --> 00:26:14,804
How do you get mobile coin?

661
00:26:14,804 --> 00:26:17,364
I think they've even like obviated that.

662
00:26:17,664 --> 00:26:20,444
It's been forever since I signed up for mobile or for Signal.

663
00:26:20,844 --> 00:26:22,264
But how do you get mobile coin?

664
00:26:23,264 --> 00:26:25,804
You have to buy that, I'm sure, on a registered exchange.

665
00:26:25,904 --> 00:26:26,724
I mean, the other thing that Signal.

666
00:26:26,964 --> 00:26:28,204
But that has nothing to do with Signal.

667
00:26:28,724 --> 00:26:30,524
Well, somehow they got mobile coin in there, right?

668
00:26:30,544 --> 00:26:31,544
So like if they wanted to.

669
00:26:31,724 --> 00:26:33,844
No, you can be KYC down a regular exchange.

670
00:26:33,984 --> 00:26:34,644
You can be on mobile coin.

671
00:26:34,744 --> 00:26:35,604
You can send it around.

672
00:26:35,944 --> 00:26:37,704
So then what's the difference here?

673
00:26:37,704 --> 00:26:38,504
They could do the same thing.

674
00:26:38,504 --> 00:26:41,744
they could just say, hey, we don't know who's going to run the mints, but we just open it up

675
00:26:41,744 --> 00:26:45,644
and figure it out yourself. The other thing Signal could do, and by the way, the more I hear you talk

676
00:26:45,644 --> 00:26:48,584
about this, the more I'm like, they should just integrate Lightning probably as a first step,

677
00:26:48,964 --> 00:26:53,844
because that's probably private enough. People can get Bitcoin much easier. The Cashew thing,

678
00:26:53,964 --> 00:26:57,824
it's cool because of the privacy, but maybe adds too much complexity. But the other thing they can

679
00:26:57,824 --> 00:27:00,624
just do is, and I've said this many times on the show, I still want someone to build this,

680
00:27:00,684 --> 00:27:04,684
maybe it should be Signal, is just have local Bitcoins or local Cashew built into the app and

681
00:27:04,684 --> 00:27:05,704
just do everything peer-to-peer.

682
00:27:06,564 --> 00:27:07,364
But let's,

683
00:27:07,684 --> 00:27:09,644
I'm happy to cover

684
00:27:09,644 --> 00:27:11,644
ArcSpark and Lightning and compare,

685
00:27:11,784 --> 00:27:12,984
but like, let's definitely,

686
00:27:13,224 --> 00:27:15,804
let's thoroughly cover Cashew though,

687
00:27:16,044 --> 00:27:17,524
because that's what's announced now

688
00:27:17,524 --> 00:27:18,464
and there's a push find it.

689
00:27:19,124 --> 00:27:21,204
And I mean, for anyone listening,

690
00:27:21,324 --> 00:27:23,184
like I'm an advocate for eCash,

691
00:27:23,324 --> 00:27:23,884
for Cashew,

692
00:27:24,124 --> 00:27:25,644
Spiral Funds Cashew developers.

693
00:27:25,784 --> 00:27:27,044
I'm not a hater on Cashew at all.

694
00:27:27,244 --> 00:27:27,444
I just,

695
00:27:27,904 --> 00:27:29,004
and I'd love to see it work out.

696
00:27:29,504 --> 00:27:30,324
I'd love nothing more

697
00:27:30,324 --> 00:27:31,724
to see a great Bitcoin.

698
00:27:31,884 --> 00:27:32,904
I check all three boxes

699
00:27:32,904 --> 00:27:34,664
of Moxies for Signal,

700
00:27:34,684 --> 00:27:36,184
and have Bitcoin, no question.

701
00:27:36,564 --> 00:27:38,084
I'm just left with this question

702
00:27:38,084 --> 00:27:38,824
of who's going to run the Mint.

703
00:27:39,664 --> 00:27:41,304
As far as your idea of like,

704
00:27:41,364 --> 00:27:42,684
oh, let's just do like mobile coin

705
00:27:42,684 --> 00:27:47,404
where you acquire Bitcoin on a Mint somewhere else

706
00:27:47,404 --> 00:27:49,284
and then bring it into Signal.

707
00:27:49,424 --> 00:27:52,384
I don't see how that differs from what I said earlier,

708
00:27:52,384 --> 00:27:55,184
which is sort of like just a BitcoinMints.com directory.

709
00:27:56,224 --> 00:27:59,064
Meaning that the risks of that seem the same.

710
00:27:59,444 --> 00:28:00,604
Yeah, but I would say what's the difference between?

711
00:28:00,724 --> 00:28:03,004
So if specifically on the KYC point,

712
00:28:03,064 --> 00:28:04,364
they don't want to KYC users.

713
00:28:04,684 --> 00:28:06,264
They once supported mobile coin.

714
00:28:06,324 --> 00:28:07,344
They still support mobile coin.

715
00:28:07,404 --> 00:28:10,604
My point is the vast majority of people that got mobile coin,

716
00:28:10,864 --> 00:28:12,444
like they punted on that, right?

717
00:28:12,684 --> 00:28:14,904
Because they're not KYC-ing and selling mobile coin

718
00:28:14,904 --> 00:28:15,784
as far as I understand.

719
00:28:16,244 --> 00:28:18,904
But let's say 90% of the users that are getting mobile coin

720
00:28:18,904 --> 00:28:20,324
are probably doing it on Coinbase

721
00:28:20,324 --> 00:28:22,484
or one of these registered exchanges, which requires KYC.

722
00:28:22,764 --> 00:28:23,844
If they really want to do peer-to-peer,

723
00:28:23,984 --> 00:28:26,184
like that's also, I'm sure there's like a tiny market

724
00:28:26,184 --> 00:28:27,304
if anyone actually uses this.

725
00:28:27,504 --> 00:28:28,504
So why can't they do the same thing?

726
00:28:28,764 --> 00:28:29,584
Like find your own mint.

727
00:28:29,644 --> 00:28:30,124
It's not our problem.

728
00:28:31,384 --> 00:28:32,824
Yeah, well, let's see.

729
00:28:32,824 --> 00:28:37,584
At minimum, I don't think people will use it then.

730
00:28:37,844 --> 00:28:38,464
Yeah, that's fair.

731
00:28:39,364 --> 00:28:42,224
I'm just saying the KYC point is no different to me in those two.

732
00:28:42,404 --> 00:28:44,644
Because if you're using MobileCoin, they already support that.

733
00:28:45,124 --> 00:28:46,984
Most of their users would have had a KYC.

734
00:28:47,764 --> 00:28:48,204
Practically.

735
00:28:48,964 --> 00:28:52,324
But so like, let's walk through what would like I open signal.

736
00:28:53,504 --> 00:28:58,784
And I'm shown some splash screen saying like, we support Bitcoin now.

737
00:28:59,064 --> 00:29:02,284
And then like, let's walk through what the copy is or like, what, you know, what, what

738
00:29:02,284 --> 00:29:03,884
of the instructions to the user.

739
00:29:04,584 --> 00:29:05,804
So that it would be here.

740
00:29:07,544 --> 00:29:08,444
So deposit

741
00:29:08,444 --> 00:29:10,104
here, but okay, what

742
00:29:10,104 --> 00:29:12,304
does here mean? Does that mean there are signals running

743
00:29:12,304 --> 00:29:14,264
a Mint? No, it just like, literally, they

744
00:29:14,264 --> 00:29:16,024
just say, I mean,

745
00:29:16,144 --> 00:29:18,224
ideally, I think they should do Bitcoin too, but it's like, okay,

746
00:29:18,644 --> 00:29:20,324
we'll set you up with a self-custodial

747
00:29:20,324 --> 00:29:22,164
cash wallet. I don't know exactly how to do that. Like,

748
00:29:22,224 --> 00:29:23,684
backup maybe. Whose will, though,

749
00:29:23,764 --> 00:29:26,304
it has to be connected to some Mint somewhere,

750
00:29:26,384 --> 00:29:28,304
right? Like, you're going to have a

751
00:29:28,304 --> 00:29:30,344
wallet that's going to connect

752
00:29:30,344 --> 00:29:32,104
to a Mint? Well, can't they say just bring

753
00:29:32,104 --> 00:29:33,984
your own? Because like with

754
00:29:33,984 --> 00:29:36,104
MobileCoin, yes, so you

755
00:29:36,104 --> 00:29:37,864
can go buy it elsewhere and then

756
00:29:37,864 --> 00:29:39,964
deposit here, like you just said. But the

757
00:29:39,964 --> 00:29:42,124
here, like Signal is running

758
00:29:42,124 --> 00:29:43,964
MobileCoin, right?

759
00:29:44,144 --> 00:29:45,284
Or they're using a third party.

760
00:29:45,724 --> 00:29:48,264
They have a MobileCoin node.

761
00:29:49,324 --> 00:29:50,064
Yes, but

762
00:29:50,064 --> 00:29:51,824
I guess my point is like... And so

763
00:29:51,824 --> 00:29:53,644
if they're not running in Mint,

764
00:29:54,044 --> 00:29:56,124
then what does it mean to deposit Bitcoin

765
00:29:56,124 --> 00:29:58,064
into Signal? Well, I mean, they could

766
00:29:58,064 --> 00:30:00,384
just say, click here to create a self-custodial

767
00:30:00,384 --> 00:30:05,204
cashew wallet where you get a cashew wallet from like here are some suggestions we suggest using

768
00:30:05,204 --> 00:30:10,384
the internet a cashew wallet or a mint not a minute like a wallet like all they're saying is

769
00:30:10,384 --> 00:30:14,884
like hey here's a cashew wallet and we don't have any we don't provide any cashew in there

770
00:30:14,884 --> 00:30:22,264
and we suggest you figure out how to get cashew here's some ideas use the internet and you fit

771
00:30:22,264 --> 00:30:25,484
find where you get the cashew from i mean i don't see that's different from mobile coin

772
00:30:25,484 --> 00:30:27,064
because you still have to go to Quintus.

773
00:30:27,064 --> 00:30:27,624
No, it's very different.

774
00:30:27,744 --> 00:30:29,484
So like if from the Signal app,

775
00:30:29,624 --> 00:30:30,384
if I have to then,

776
00:30:30,704 --> 00:30:31,204
if they're like,

777
00:30:31,484 --> 00:30:33,764
here are three Cashew wallet options

778
00:30:33,764 --> 00:30:35,864
and then I click on the first one

779
00:30:35,864 --> 00:30:37,684
and then it bounces out to an app

780
00:30:37,684 --> 00:30:38,444
or a website or whatever,

781
00:30:38,544 --> 00:30:39,584
which is a Cashew wallet

782
00:30:39,584 --> 00:30:42,244
and then that Cashew wallet

783
00:30:42,244 --> 00:30:44,744
somehow chooses a mint for me

784
00:30:44,744 --> 00:30:45,744
or I have a directory or whatever

785
00:30:45,744 --> 00:30:47,264
and I get tokens.

786
00:30:47,504 --> 00:30:49,524
That's not an integrated experience.

787
00:30:49,764 --> 00:30:51,004
That's a completely separate app.

788
00:30:51,004 --> 00:30:52,224
Where MobileCoin wallet

789
00:30:52,224 --> 00:30:54,464
is literally integrated into Signal.

790
00:30:54,644 --> 00:30:54,944
Got it.

791
00:30:54,944 --> 00:30:58,584
So what I'm thinking is, and perhaps this is a bit more complex, I don't know exactly how this

792
00:30:58,584 --> 00:31:03,984
worked, but is that they help the user set up a self-custodial wallet. And maybe it's like,

793
00:31:04,384 --> 00:31:08,304
you know, okay, we back up your keys. We never see them. Maybe it's in the secure element in

794
00:31:08,304 --> 00:31:13,524
your phone. I don't know how they would do that. But what they could then do is forward payments

795
00:31:13,524 --> 00:31:18,144
for you. And I think they would just need to run a Lightning note for that, right? Like if you send

796
00:31:18,144 --> 00:31:23,864
a cashew, you would have to use a cashew mint that's hooked up to Lightning and they could be

797
00:31:23,864 --> 00:31:25,844
kind of like your LSP for routing that payment.

798
00:31:26,164 --> 00:31:26,964
I guess what I'm trying to say is,

799
00:31:27,064 --> 00:31:28,024
is there a way they could do this

800
00:31:28,024 --> 00:31:29,904
without ever having to touch Cashi themselves?

801
00:31:30,124 --> 00:31:31,784
All they have to do is touch Bitcoin in the background

802
00:31:31,784 --> 00:31:33,424
and then they set you up with,

803
00:31:33,504 --> 00:31:34,684
here's how you set up a custodial wallet.

804
00:31:35,004 --> 00:31:36,064
I don't think so,

805
00:31:36,444 --> 00:31:39,304
unless it's not an integrated experience

806
00:31:39,304 --> 00:31:41,224
and then it's not interesting at all.

807
00:31:41,284 --> 00:31:42,884
But why couldn't it be an integrated experience

808
00:31:42,884 --> 00:31:45,124
if you have a self-custodial wallet?

809
00:31:46,184 --> 00:31:48,704
What do you mean by self-custodial wallet?

810
00:31:48,964 --> 00:31:50,904
I mean, they can't see your keys.

811
00:31:51,264 --> 00:31:52,264
Similar to how they...

812
00:31:52,264 --> 00:31:53,604
So you have a separate app

813
00:31:53,604 --> 00:31:56,824
But why couldn't they do this in the app where it's like,

814
00:31:56,864 --> 00:31:58,284
I don't know how this would work exactly,

815
00:31:58,404 --> 00:32:00,704
but they're like, okay, you have a set of keys.

816
00:32:00,844 --> 00:32:03,044
Like they can't see your encryption keys for Signal, right?

817
00:32:03,204 --> 00:32:03,784
Is that correct?

818
00:32:05,064 --> 00:32:07,764
Like if I had the Signal app, they can't see my encryption keys.

819
00:32:08,184 --> 00:32:08,624
I'm pretty sure.

820
00:32:09,264 --> 00:32:09,824
I would hope not.

821
00:32:09,904 --> 00:32:10,684
I would guess that's correct.

822
00:32:10,864 --> 00:32:10,984
Yeah.

823
00:32:11,124 --> 00:32:12,424
So why can't they just be like, okay,

824
00:32:12,464 --> 00:32:14,984
we're attaching to those same set of encryption keys.

825
00:32:15,304 --> 00:32:16,984
I mean, I don't know like what the spec would have to be for that.

826
00:32:17,044 --> 00:32:18,404
Maybe you have to have a separate set of keys,

827
00:32:18,924 --> 00:32:20,264
but ideally one set of keys.

828
00:32:20,784 --> 00:32:23,104
Attached to those keys, you can literally set,

829
00:32:23,104 --> 00:32:24,424
Like imagine like an Oster address.

830
00:32:24,684 --> 00:32:25,844
You can send Bitcoin here.

831
00:32:26,964 --> 00:32:30,564
Is it a layer one wallet, a lightning wallet, Spark, ARK?

832
00:32:30,684 --> 00:32:32,104
So what I'm thinking is...

833
00:32:32,104 --> 00:32:33,524
What are the keys to?

834
00:32:33,624 --> 00:32:36,484
Well, doesn't the way Cashew work is like,

835
00:32:36,564 --> 00:32:41,724
can't I just have a key where I send Cashew to, like an address?

836
00:32:41,864 --> 00:32:43,164
Isn't that the same thing, no?

837
00:32:43,484 --> 00:32:45,944
I don't know if it's interoperable as a Bitcoin key.

838
00:32:46,024 --> 00:32:47,324
I don't know if it uses the same curve.

839
00:32:48,024 --> 00:32:48,924
Or does it not work?

840
00:32:49,064 --> 00:32:52,624
Cashew, you have, the data you have are just tokens.

841
00:32:52,624 --> 00:32:53,584
Individual tokens.

842
00:32:53,804 --> 00:32:55,664
Which is just a data string.

843
00:32:56,124 --> 00:32:56,284
I see.

844
00:32:56,584 --> 00:32:59,924
I think we're kind of confusing the issue a little bit here

845
00:32:59,924 --> 00:33:04,324
because I love the vision for having Signal

846
00:33:04,324 --> 00:33:06,784
with Bitcoin readily available.

847
00:33:07,764 --> 00:33:09,544
But what are we hoping?

848
00:33:09,604 --> 00:33:11,224
Are we hoping that Signal integrates this

849
00:33:11,224 --> 00:33:14,744
and then that somehow makes this thing take off

850
00:33:14,744 --> 00:33:15,824
through Signal's distribution?

851
00:33:15,964 --> 00:33:18,344
Because all of these things feel so confusing.

852
00:33:18,644 --> 00:33:19,224
And how do you do it?

853
00:33:19,484 --> 00:33:20,644
Whereas if I were in China,

854
00:33:20,724 --> 00:33:22,064
I love the vision that we're talking about,

855
00:33:22,064 --> 00:33:26,784
If I were in charge of this, I'd be like, show me the growth of all of this usage and activity outside.

856
00:33:26,924 --> 00:33:29,344
Because a lot of people use things like Venmo.

857
00:33:29,544 --> 00:33:32,844
They send over WhatsApp and iMessage and whatever.

858
00:33:33,444 --> 00:33:38,304
Even iMessage, I think, has its proprietary payment as part of it.

859
00:33:38,364 --> 00:33:39,644
But I don't think I've ever used it.

860
00:33:39,844 --> 00:33:43,224
I use Venmo and Zelle because that's what server owners want.

861
00:33:43,224 --> 00:33:44,464
That's an interesting topic, too.

862
00:33:44,564 --> 00:33:46,184
I mean, it gets into the use cases.

863
00:33:46,764 --> 00:33:50,044
But I do want to just touch on this one thing before we jump in that, because I think this is important.

864
00:33:50,044 --> 00:33:58,404
And it's been a while since I've looked at all the details in this, but I thought like Pablo's big breakthrough was that, quote unquote, the cashew, the nut is in the NPUB.

865
00:33:58,924 --> 00:34:07,664
And so my understanding was you could literally have an NPUB, so a Nostra private key or a Nostra public key, which is the same as a Bitcoin key.

866
00:34:08,284 --> 00:34:17,404
And in that key, you could have your cashew tokens attached to that key and it could be stored in Relay.

867
00:34:17,404 --> 00:34:24,924
So in a way, what they would have to do is support Nostra relays where the in-pub is stored.

868
00:34:25,984 --> 00:34:29,404
And I don't know exactly how that works, but I thought that was like the big breakthrough that Pablo had.

869
00:34:29,444 --> 00:34:36,484
And if that's the case, then I don't see how, if they give you this in-pub, you can't send tokens.

870
00:34:36,584 --> 00:34:37,904
And if someone's listening, they can correct me.

871
00:34:37,944 --> 00:34:44,904
I know I'm probably getting some technical details wrong, but like that, I just remember Pablo kept saying over and over again, the cashew is in the key.

872
00:34:45,584 --> 00:34:46,024
Yeah.

873
00:34:46,024 --> 00:34:46,584
Yeah.

874
00:34:47,184 --> 00:34:49,984
We'll do homework after the show

875
00:34:49,984 --> 00:34:51,604
because if there's a path there,

876
00:34:51,664 --> 00:34:53,084
obviously I'd love to learn it.

877
00:34:53,684 --> 00:34:56,224
But critically, the key insight that I remember

878
00:34:56,224 --> 00:34:58,704
is you're storing it in the relays.

879
00:34:58,844 --> 00:35:00,604
As long as you have your private key,

880
00:35:00,944 --> 00:35:02,324
you can access your eCache

881
00:35:02,324 --> 00:35:05,624
in whichever relays you'd like to store it.

882
00:35:06,344 --> 00:35:08,384
So it's more of a call for signal to integrate Noster.

883
00:35:08,384 --> 00:35:10,184
Okay, we'll figure this out for next time.

884
00:35:10,424 --> 00:35:12,464
But I still have the question,

885
00:35:12,784 --> 00:35:13,844
who will run the Mint?

886
00:35:13,844 --> 00:35:16,584
and no one's been able to answer that.

887
00:35:16,584 --> 00:35:17,764
That seems like a hard one.

888
00:35:17,984 --> 00:35:19,924
And I think we've asked that forever.

889
00:35:20,404 --> 00:35:20,564
Is it?

890
00:35:21,404 --> 00:35:23,024
Oh, well, I just like,

891
00:35:23,124 --> 00:35:25,104
I would like to be an advocate.

892
00:35:25,604 --> 00:35:27,144
I'd like to go yell and scream

893
00:35:27,144 --> 00:35:28,404
and do whatever I can

894
00:35:28,404 --> 00:35:30,564
to get Bitcoin in the signal

895
00:35:30,564 --> 00:35:32,264
and be a cashew.

896
00:35:32,584 --> 00:35:34,184
But I'm not because

897
00:35:34,184 --> 00:35:37,344
if I put my Meredith hat on

898
00:35:37,344 --> 00:35:38,824
or the PM a signal hat on,

899
00:35:38,924 --> 00:35:41,144
I would be asking who will run them in.

900
00:35:41,624 --> 00:35:43,204
And so until I can answer that better,

901
00:35:43,204 --> 00:35:46,224
I don't see how I can be a champion for that method.

902
00:35:46,584 --> 00:35:53,444
How far are we from, we've talked before about an AI agent running the Mint that nobody really controls.

903
00:35:53,944 --> 00:35:58,944
And to me that, I don't think we have it fully figured out, but to me that seems like the most promising path to get there.

904
00:35:59,404 --> 00:36:09,844
And you could imagine some sort of AI agent that's open source software that runs in some environment and that maybe people donate to pay for the infrastructure.

905
00:36:09,844 --> 00:36:11,724
or they don't donate to you.

906
00:36:11,764 --> 00:36:13,624
I mean, the idea is you actually tell the agent,

907
00:36:14,124 --> 00:36:15,124
run this thing profitably.

908
00:36:15,464 --> 00:36:16,424
And with those profits,

909
00:36:16,564 --> 00:36:18,004
reinvest in backing yourself up.

910
00:36:18,484 --> 00:36:21,324
That seems like a great vibe coding project

911
00:36:21,324 --> 00:36:24,544
for you or Matt or Max or me or whatever to do,

912
00:36:24,624 --> 00:36:25,864
someone to do, someone, listener.

913
00:36:26,424 --> 00:36:29,664
That sounds like an amazing experimental project to me,

914
00:36:30,104 --> 00:36:32,444
but I'm sure there's like at least a dozen things

915
00:36:32,444 --> 00:36:33,684
that will be revealed while building it,

916
00:36:33,744 --> 00:36:35,804
which make it impractical or impeachable

917
00:36:35,804 --> 00:36:37,004
or too risky or whatever.

918
00:36:37,004 --> 00:36:37,444
Today.

919
00:36:37,984 --> 00:36:39,504
Today, you know, so I'm not,

920
00:36:39,504 --> 00:36:40,744
I'm not shitting on the idea.

921
00:36:41,104 --> 00:36:42,144
I'm just, to me, that's like,

922
00:36:42,524 --> 00:36:44,264
it would be an amazing experiment now,

923
00:36:44,364 --> 00:36:45,084
but it's certainly not,

924
00:36:45,424 --> 00:36:46,924
like, it's not a definitive answer.

925
00:36:47,264 --> 00:36:47,964
Well, and to be clear,

926
00:36:48,024 --> 00:36:48,484
I mean, I can tell you,

927
00:36:48,544 --> 00:36:49,884
and I need to do it longer, right?

928
00:36:49,924 --> 00:36:50,484
I put this idea.

929
00:36:50,584 --> 00:36:51,944
Like, we can't go to Signal right now

930
00:36:51,944 --> 00:36:53,204
and say, like, here's the answer.

931
00:36:53,264 --> 00:36:54,004
Here's your solution.

932
00:36:54,504 --> 00:36:56,504
But I think maybe the thing I'm suggesting

933
00:36:56,504 --> 00:36:57,944
is let's figure it out

934
00:36:57,944 --> 00:36:59,904
independent of Signal and prove it.

935
00:36:59,904 --> 00:37:00,904
Because I think going to Signal

936
00:37:00,904 --> 00:37:02,564
and hassling them to integrate this thing

937
00:37:02,564 --> 00:37:03,764
that we don't even have an answer to

938
00:37:03,764 --> 00:37:05,124
is kind of backwards.

939
00:37:05,124 --> 00:37:08,204
Let's make the answer outside of Signal.

940
00:37:08,344 --> 00:37:09,084
And make it easy for them.

941
00:37:09,084 --> 00:37:10,664
like Venmo works really well,

942
00:37:11,224 --> 00:37:12,944
non-integrated with iMessage,

943
00:37:13,364 --> 00:37:14,304
but it works really well.

944
00:37:14,624 --> 00:37:15,944
So like, let's prove

945
00:37:15,944 --> 00:37:17,284
that we can make it work really well.

946
00:37:17,424 --> 00:37:18,904
And then once everybody's using it

947
00:37:18,904 --> 00:37:19,724
and it's so obvious

948
00:37:19,724 --> 00:37:21,304
they're pasting links into Signal,

949
00:37:21,824 --> 00:37:22,684
let me say, hey, Signal,

950
00:37:22,864 --> 00:37:23,724
let's make this thing

951
00:37:23,724 --> 00:37:25,084
that already works much better.

952
00:37:25,244 --> 00:37:26,824
And then I think as a product manager,

953
00:37:26,944 --> 00:37:27,464
Meredith, whoever,

954
00:37:27,944 --> 00:37:29,504
then you have like a really strong case

955
00:37:29,504 --> 00:37:30,144
to be made.

956
00:37:30,404 --> 00:37:32,084
So I have many ideas around this.

957
00:37:32,184 --> 00:37:33,084
And I think that

958
00:37:33,084 --> 00:37:35,364
it's a very promising idea.

959
00:37:35,524 --> 00:37:37,104
I think, frankly, whoever does it,

960
00:37:37,104 --> 00:37:38,344
is probably going to need a drop at Anon,

961
00:37:38,444 --> 00:37:38,944
like Satoshi.

962
00:37:39,084 --> 00:37:43,264
Because it's also, I mean, this is the most subversive, crazy idea.

963
00:37:43,344 --> 00:37:44,564
It's not even like subversive.

964
00:37:44,704 --> 00:37:47,424
It's like dangerous in a way because you're starting digital life.

965
00:37:47,704 --> 00:37:48,624
There's things we need, right?

966
00:37:48,684 --> 00:37:55,144
We need the GPUs that you can pay for in Bitcoin or in Cashew, which don't exist yet.

967
00:37:55,144 --> 00:37:57,104
It doesn't even need GPUs, just regular CPUs.

968
00:37:57,184 --> 00:37:57,324
Yeah.

969
00:37:57,324 --> 00:37:58,844
Very low-end hardware could run this.

970
00:37:58,944 --> 00:37:59,264
That's true.

971
00:37:59,444 --> 00:37:59,724
That's true.

972
00:38:00,084 --> 00:38:05,784
So what I think we should do is after the Type 1 Summit, which is taking all of my attention

973
00:38:05,784 --> 00:38:07,624
now that I've got a bunch of other stuff done.

974
00:38:08,164 --> 00:38:09,664
I think I've had this idea.

975
00:38:09,744 --> 00:38:10,844
I'm going to drop it here on the show.

976
00:38:13,104 --> 00:38:13,904
You may or may not.

977
00:38:13,944 --> 00:38:15,244
Okay, actually, both of you guys.

978
00:38:15,544 --> 00:38:17,724
Steve, since you're flexing some early 90s stuff.

979
00:38:18,824 --> 00:38:22,524
By the way, Austin points out that Novell is based in Provo, Utah,

980
00:38:23,064 --> 00:38:24,524
which is where he is.

981
00:38:24,824 --> 00:38:25,844
So it was a sales company?

982
00:38:27,584 --> 00:38:30,164
Everyone knows Utah's got the Mormon salesman.

983
00:38:31,864 --> 00:38:35,084
So what I think we should do is,

984
00:38:35,084 --> 00:38:42,644
do you remember in the early 90s, 1993, 1994 era, I believe, I was barely conscious then, but

985
00:38:42,644 --> 00:38:48,604
there were these artificial life conferences. Kevin Kelly was at them. A lot of the Santa

986
00:38:48,604 --> 00:38:52,824
F. Institute guys were at them, but it was a thing. They had these artificial life. And I

987
00:38:52,824 --> 00:38:56,544
highly recommend one of my favorite books of all time is Out of Control, which is Kevin Kelly's

988
00:38:56,544 --> 00:39:01,144
90s book. It's his best one by far. And in my opinion, it still reads modern, even though it's

989
00:39:01,144 --> 00:39:07,224
30 years old. I think what we should do is a lot of these guys were like the true wizards of that

990
00:39:07,224 --> 00:39:11,264
day and they were all like Apple and like many of them probably just live here like in this,

991
00:39:11,264 --> 00:39:15,584
you know, Santa Cruz mountains now. We should bring it back and do artificial life three or

992
00:39:15,584 --> 00:39:21,364
artificial life four, whatever vintage it's on. But with a Bitcoin and cashew kind of like focus.

993
00:39:21,524 --> 00:39:26,944
And so bring all these great minds back together. But this time be like, boys, we've got your digital

994
00:39:26,944 --> 00:39:29,164
ATP. We've got your life currency now.

995
00:39:29,524 --> 00:39:30,784
You want to form digital life?

996
00:39:30,904 --> 00:39:33,204
We got the tools. And come away

997
00:39:33,204 --> 00:39:34,784
with the goal of

998
00:39:34,784 --> 00:39:36,704
hackathon. Maybe we even attach a hackathon

999
00:39:36,704 --> 00:39:38,324
where they get Cali and the best hackers.

1000
00:39:38,964 --> 00:39:40,764
We want to leave this with

1001
00:39:40,764 --> 00:39:42,904
artificial life birth. So Autonomous Life

1002
00:39:42,904 --> 00:39:43,804
Summit. Yes.

1003
00:39:44,324 --> 00:39:46,504
Type 1 Summit, Autonomous Life Summit.

1004
00:39:47,724 --> 00:39:48,284
ALS.

1005
00:39:48,364 --> 00:39:49,884
I like the way you...

1006
00:39:49,884 --> 00:39:51,844
For the Bitcoin community.

1007
00:39:53,244 --> 00:39:54,464
I like the way

1008
00:39:54,464 --> 00:39:56,824
you've organized Type 1 Summit

1009
00:39:56,824 --> 00:40:01,464
to not, it doesn't feel like it's a Bitcoin shill fest.

1010
00:40:01,804 --> 00:40:01,864
No.

1011
00:40:01,944 --> 00:40:04,284
It's not for Bitcoiners, by Bitcoiners.

1012
00:40:04,304 --> 00:40:05,404
I mean, it's by Bitcoiners,

1013
00:40:05,784 --> 00:40:08,444
but it's for everybody who cares about this topic.

1014
00:40:08,944 --> 00:40:12,044
Independent of your interest or allegiance to Bitcoin.

1015
00:40:12,244 --> 00:40:12,584
Exactly.

1016
00:40:12,704 --> 00:40:14,924
You can kind of, you know, figure it out along the way

1017
00:40:14,924 --> 00:40:16,184
if it turns out to be the right tool.

1018
00:40:16,424 --> 00:40:16,644
Great.

1019
00:40:16,884 --> 00:40:18,144
I think Autonomous Life Summit

1020
00:40:18,144 --> 00:40:19,684
or whatever you want to call it.

1021
00:40:20,164 --> 00:40:20,904
Some different acronym.

1022
00:40:21,144 --> 00:40:23,824
Could kind of benefit from a similar kind of vibe.

1023
00:40:24,224 --> 00:40:26,604
That's not like, hey, we've got the answer for you.

1024
00:40:26,604 --> 00:40:27,644
It's called Bitcoin and Nostrum.

1025
00:40:27,744 --> 00:40:29,724
It's just like, hey, autonomous life.

1026
00:40:29,844 --> 00:40:30,704
How do we want to build it?

1027
00:40:30,804 --> 00:40:32,224
And here are some tools that might be interesting.

1028
00:40:32,244 --> 00:40:32,844
It might be interesting, yeah.

1029
00:40:33,084 --> 00:40:34,304
And actually, I love it.

1030
00:40:34,344 --> 00:40:35,864
This is what I was talking with Alex about yesterday.

1031
00:40:36,864 --> 00:40:38,664
Obviously, we love all the Bitcoin conferences.

1032
00:40:40,184 --> 00:40:44,004
We've all been to many, many, many, especially us, many, many, many, many of them.

1033
00:40:44,644 --> 00:40:48,364
But what I like about the Type 1 Summit a lot, and what I think this could also benefit from,

1034
00:40:48,404 --> 00:40:54,784
and I think it's part of our mission at PB, which is to expand from the current members of the cult to the new members,

1035
00:40:54,884 --> 00:40:56,484
which is going to be the rest of Silicon Valley.

1036
00:40:56,604 --> 00:40:59,624
is it's very, it's in the background, right?

1037
00:40:59,664 --> 00:41:00,484
It's like, it's there.

1038
00:41:00,964 --> 00:41:01,504
You know, we're certainly,

1039
00:41:01,664 --> 00:41:03,204
I mean, we're gonna have a ton of Bitcoiners there,

1040
00:41:03,544 --> 00:41:05,644
but like half the folks that we have coming to the summit

1041
00:41:05,644 --> 00:41:09,504
are like people at Tesla or people at Google or like,

1042
00:41:09,864 --> 00:41:11,864
and I don't think they're anti-Bitcoin

1043
00:41:11,864 --> 00:41:13,944
because if they saw it's hosted at Presidio Bitcoin

1044
00:41:13,944 --> 00:41:15,064
and they were anti-Bitcoin,

1045
00:41:15,144 --> 00:41:16,464
they would probably refuse the invitation.

1046
00:41:17,324 --> 00:41:18,944
But it's all about energy.

1047
00:41:19,064 --> 00:41:21,184
And oh, by the way, they're gonna realize,

1048
00:41:21,184 --> 00:41:23,124
oh, like all these really smart Bitcoin miners.

1049
00:41:23,324 --> 00:41:24,224
Like we talked about,

1050
00:41:24,364 --> 00:41:26,124
like why are all the early mining companies

1051
00:41:26,124 --> 00:41:27,564
and now the ones making all the money in AI.

1052
00:41:27,764 --> 00:41:28,884
Hmm, maybe there's something there.

1053
00:41:29,204 --> 00:41:31,124
And I think similar for artificial life,

1054
00:41:31,344 --> 00:41:34,204
I think it's also a big step we can make.

1055
00:41:34,684 --> 00:41:36,684
I'll never forget, it was very kind of sad to me.

1056
00:41:36,824 --> 00:41:38,264
It was actually one of the sadder things

1057
00:41:38,264 --> 00:41:39,364
in the last couple of years of my life

1058
00:41:39,364 --> 00:41:42,724
was when we went to the Kevin Kelly thing,

1059
00:41:42,944 --> 00:41:43,904
you remember his library thing?

1060
00:41:44,024 --> 00:41:44,804
That was so cool.

1061
00:41:45,404 --> 00:41:46,384
Kevin Kelly is one of my heroes.

1062
00:41:46,504 --> 00:41:47,524
I love his books so much.

1063
00:41:48,304 --> 00:41:49,724
And it was just, yeah, it was a little crushing

1064
00:41:49,724 --> 00:41:50,704
when I mentioned, you know,

1065
00:41:50,784 --> 00:41:51,744
I work in Nostrum, Bitcoin,

1066
00:41:51,844 --> 00:41:53,264
I could just see his face like, oh, crypto.

1067
00:41:53,424 --> 00:41:54,564
He's like, I don't like all that shit.

1068
00:41:54,564 --> 00:41:56,504
it's like, no, you don't understand, man.

1069
00:41:56,564 --> 00:41:58,124
This is like so in line with you just,

1070
00:41:58,764 --> 00:42:00,744
like the crypto people have so tarnished

1071
00:42:00,744 --> 00:42:02,404
the beautiful things we're trying to work on.

1072
00:42:02,544 --> 00:42:04,464
And anyways, reclaiming that

1073
00:42:04,464 --> 00:42:05,604
and getting people like Kevin Kelly

1074
00:42:05,604 --> 00:42:07,624
just to see the broader picture of,

1075
00:42:07,664 --> 00:42:08,704
no, this is part of evolution.

1076
00:42:08,864 --> 00:42:10,184
You're just, you're missing the point

1077
00:42:10,184 --> 00:42:12,744
because of all these like scammer fucks.

1078
00:42:12,824 --> 00:42:13,004
Anyways.

1079
00:42:14,044 --> 00:42:14,224
Yep.

1080
00:42:14,444 --> 00:42:14,624
Yeah.

1081
00:42:15,544 --> 00:42:16,304
It was sad.

1082
00:42:16,404 --> 00:42:16,964
It was very.

1083
00:42:17,524 --> 00:42:18,604
So we got a bunch of things

1084
00:42:18,604 --> 00:42:19,524
I want to talk about.

1085
00:42:19,684 --> 00:42:20,964
Well, maybe we'll talk about use cases

1086
00:42:20,964 --> 00:42:23,464
of signaling Bitcoin in a future episode.

1087
00:42:23,664 --> 00:42:23,844
Okay.

1088
00:42:23,844 --> 00:42:24,804
Is that cool?

1089
00:42:24,984 --> 00:42:25,284
Yeah, sure.

1090
00:42:25,424 --> 00:42:26,184
Do you have any ideas?

1091
00:42:26,264 --> 00:42:27,004
Just like a high level?

1092
00:42:27,084 --> 00:42:27,644
Any that come to mind?

1093
00:42:28,364 --> 00:42:29,044
Well, I mean,

1094
00:42:30,604 --> 00:42:32,244
if you go to a square terminal

1095
00:42:32,244 --> 00:42:32,864
and pay in Bitcoin,

1096
00:42:33,364 --> 00:42:34,564
Signal can become your wallet, right?

1097
00:42:34,684 --> 00:42:34,824
I mean,

1098
00:42:35,484 --> 00:42:37,184
most people don't have Bitcoin

1099
00:42:37,184 --> 00:42:38,124
on their phone.

1100
00:42:38,904 --> 00:42:39,784
Even people who own Bitcoin

1101
00:42:39,784 --> 00:42:40,664
don't have Bitcoin on their phone.

1102
00:42:40,724 --> 00:42:41,724
They don't have like a spending wallet.

1103
00:42:41,944 --> 00:42:42,124
Yeah.

1104
00:42:42,624 --> 00:42:43,964
But for the 100 million plus people

1105
00:42:43,964 --> 00:42:44,404
who have Signal,

1106
00:42:44,624 --> 00:42:45,204
then all of a sudden,

1107
00:42:45,564 --> 00:42:45,764
it's like,

1108
00:42:46,364 --> 00:42:48,024
okay, now I have a spending wallet.

1109
00:42:48,444 --> 00:42:48,944
100 million?

1110
00:42:49,024 --> 00:42:50,044
I didn't realize it was that large.

1111
00:42:50,524 --> 00:42:51,444
I mean, they had 100 million

1112
00:42:51,444 --> 00:42:52,404
like four years ago.

1113
00:42:52,404 --> 00:42:53,744
So they might be

1114
00:42:53,844 --> 00:42:54,744
200 million now? More?

1115
00:42:54,944 --> 00:42:55,904
While they're on the ETF.

1116
00:42:57,804 --> 00:42:59,644
The Signal ETF?

1117
00:43:01,484 --> 00:43:02,564
I don't know what that is.

1118
00:43:03,384 --> 00:43:07,864
But yeah, they could spend at Square.

1119
00:43:08,084 --> 00:43:11,004
So one thing I was hoping to talk about is the stickers.

1120
00:43:11,004 --> 00:43:12,604
I mean, we talked about Square last week,

1121
00:43:12,664 --> 00:43:17,304
so we don't have to re-discuss the product announcement

1122
00:43:17,304 --> 00:43:18,144
of accepting Bitcoin.

1123
00:43:18,144 --> 00:43:26,624
But I think this week Square revealed the stickers that they're providing for free to merchants.

1124
00:43:27,244 --> 00:43:29,424
These are the stickers that you see in merchant windows.

1125
00:43:29,664 --> 00:43:34,644
They accept Visa or Apple Pay or Cash App or whatever.

1126
00:43:35,204 --> 00:43:36,144
Different payment systems.

1127
00:43:37,944 --> 00:43:41,024
And now the new stickers, of course, have a Bitcoin logo.

1128
00:43:41,344 --> 00:43:42,624
Does it have Biddy or somebody on it?

1129
00:43:42,864 --> 00:43:45,004
Well, that's one of the things we can talk about.

1130
00:43:45,004 --> 00:43:50,104
I have a little bit of inside baseball because I saw the discussion about what it should look like.

1131
00:43:51,284 --> 00:43:59,304
And before we get into style and stuff like that, to me, I think this is actually going to be a really big deal.

1132
00:43:59,984 --> 00:44:09,604
Because I think it can change the psychology of normal people who don't own Bitcoin or maybe they do own Bitcoin, but they certainly don't spend it.

1133
00:44:09,724 --> 00:44:10,864
Like no one's spending Bitcoin, right?

1134
00:44:10,864 --> 00:44:17,564
So normal people, I think just normal people are like, they just think of Bitcoin as like, you know, it goes up and down a lot.

1135
00:44:17,684 --> 00:44:19,764
It's gone up more than it's gone down.

1136
00:44:19,984 --> 00:44:21,144
Early people got rich.

1137
00:44:22,104 --> 00:44:23,044
Digital gold.

1138
00:44:24,184 --> 00:44:24,584
Period.

1139
00:44:25,024 --> 00:44:26,964
But it's like, it failed.

1140
00:44:27,084 --> 00:44:27,724
It's not a currency.

1141
00:44:28,224 --> 00:44:30,004
It's not a currency because people don't use it.

1142
00:44:30,064 --> 00:44:31,504
I've never seen anyone spend it, right?

1143
00:44:31,844 --> 00:44:39,024
Now, people are going to walk into stores, go to merchants, and they'll see the sticker with Visa and MasterCard, and they'll see a Bitcoin B symbol.

1144
00:44:39,124 --> 00:44:39,564
That's awesome.

1145
00:44:39,964 --> 00:44:40,384
And Bitcoin.

1146
00:44:40,864 --> 00:44:41,764
It's a slogan.

1147
00:44:42,004 --> 00:44:44,144
It's everywhere you want to be.

1148
00:44:46,844 --> 00:44:48,984
We should have had you involved.

1149
00:44:50,324 --> 00:44:51,924
They need to get you in the marketing team here.

1150
00:44:52,584 --> 00:44:53,504
You have a job.

1151
00:44:55,624 --> 00:44:59,564
Even if no one is actually even using Bitcoin to spend at Square Terminals,

1152
00:44:59,824 --> 00:45:02,644
just seeing the Bitcoin be symbol, it makes you think.

1153
00:45:02,724 --> 00:45:03,164
It's a perception.

1154
00:45:03,324 --> 00:45:06,044
It makes you think, oh, people must be spending Bitcoin.

1155
00:45:06,344 --> 00:45:07,044
It's here.

1156
00:45:07,224 --> 00:45:07,984
It's arrived.

1157
00:45:07,984 --> 00:45:10,784
and it can be a

1158
00:45:10,784 --> 00:45:14,164
self-fulfilling prophecy

1159
00:45:14,164 --> 00:45:16,264
right? All of a sudden it shifts

1160
00:45:16,264 --> 00:45:18,124
the narrative from like Michael

1161
00:45:18,124 --> 00:45:19,644
Saylor, like ETF,

1162
00:45:20,244 --> 00:45:21,984
digital gold to like

1163
00:45:21,984 --> 00:45:24,204
or not necessarily shift. I mean you can

1164
00:45:24,204 --> 00:45:26,304
still have that narrative but also the narrative of

1165
00:45:26,304 --> 00:45:27,844
like oh it has become

1166
00:45:27,844 --> 00:45:30,244
a currency now. It must be. It's

1167
00:45:30,244 --> 00:45:32,264
arrived as a currency. And it at least

1168
00:45:32,264 --> 00:45:34,124
opens your mind. So that

1169
00:45:34,124 --> 00:45:36,104
I mean it still might be four years from now where you

1170
00:45:36,104 --> 00:45:37,884
actually have Bitcoin in your phone and you're spending it.

1171
00:45:37,984 --> 00:45:39,604
but it's changed your concept.

1172
00:45:39,924 --> 00:45:40,644
Shifts the over to window.

1173
00:45:40,864 --> 00:45:41,044
Yeah.

1174
00:45:41,524 --> 00:45:43,724
And what does it take to get these?

1175
00:45:43,824 --> 00:45:45,164
You have to go out to all the merchants

1176
00:45:45,164 --> 00:45:47,844
who have a thing and sort of explain it

1177
00:45:47,844 --> 00:45:48,904
or just it comes with a packet

1178
00:45:48,904 --> 00:45:51,544
that they already typically do updates and installs on?

1179
00:45:51,864 --> 00:45:53,264
No, I mean, if you're a Square merchant,

1180
00:45:53,464 --> 00:45:54,964
there's a website, you click a button

1181
00:45:54,964 --> 00:45:57,404
and you can get up to nine of them for free.

1182
00:45:57,984 --> 00:45:59,384
And you put them like on your store window

1183
00:45:59,384 --> 00:46:00,524
or on the terminal itself?

1184
00:46:01,224 --> 00:46:03,924
Yeah, I mean, there's no innovation there.

1185
00:46:04,064 --> 00:46:05,944
Just like it's done today with different stickers.

1186
00:46:06,104 --> 00:46:07,584
I mean, Square's provided stickers.

1187
00:46:07,984 --> 00:46:11,344
in the past. This is just a new set with Bitcoin.

1188
00:46:11,844 --> 00:46:16,584
Are there plans? So that's cool, but that are obviously very few people will begin by opting

1189
00:46:16,584 --> 00:46:19,844
in and asking for a sticker. Are there plans for Square to proactively send them to everyone?

1190
00:46:21,864 --> 00:46:28,324
I don't know about that, but what I have seen is that we have a Bitcoin army, right? So there

1191
00:46:28,324 --> 00:46:34,604
are people, Bitcoiners tweeting, saying like, I want to go hand these stickers. Can I get the

1192
00:46:34,604 --> 00:46:39,644
stickers, I can hand them to my favorite merchants to convert them. And I think the right answer

1193
00:46:39,644 --> 00:46:48,184
there is go talk to your merchants and say, hey, I'd like to buy in Bitcoin. And by the way,

1194
00:46:48,184 --> 00:46:54,224
right here, just click this button in your UI and you enable it. It's dead simple. The coffee shop

1195
00:46:54,224 --> 00:46:58,664
in Washington, D.C. just promoted themselves as the first coffee shop to accept Bitcoin through

1196
00:46:58,664 --> 00:47:04,084
a square terminal, it is as easy as just like tapping a button and turning it on.

1197
00:47:04,224 --> 00:47:08,924
So the Bitcoin army can go convince the merchants to that and then also point them out and just

1198
00:47:08,924 --> 00:47:15,144
go to this website, click a button, order your stickers, and then post your stickers.

1199
00:47:15,384 --> 00:47:19,604
Alternative ideas, perhaps since Novell is based in Provo, Utah and doesn't appear to

1200
00:47:19,604 --> 00:47:22,944
be doing much these days, perhaps they could turn into a marketing company for Bitcoin.

1201
00:47:23,824 --> 00:47:25,424
Have you heard the good word of Satoshi?

1202
00:47:25,424 --> 00:47:27,464
I always feel bad for these merchants.

1203
00:47:27,464 --> 00:47:30,724
So we should actually check in on our homework from last week

1204
00:47:30,724 --> 00:47:33,324
because I actually mentioned to two different merchants,

1205
00:47:33,624 --> 00:47:35,724
our normal lunch spot here in the Presidio,

1206
00:47:36,304 --> 00:47:41,584
and to my favorite tea shop that both of which have Square Terminals

1207
00:47:41,584 --> 00:47:44,604
and said, if you opt into accepting Bitcoin,

1208
00:47:44,744 --> 00:47:45,464
I will pay you in Bitcoin.

1209
00:47:45,584 --> 00:47:46,104
It'd be super cool.

1210
00:47:46,664 --> 00:47:48,264
The first lady was like, oh, no, not again.

1211
00:47:48,324 --> 00:47:50,424
I can tell she's been hit with like 15 people already.

1212
00:47:50,524 --> 00:47:51,264
I was like, oh, shit.

1213
00:47:51,424 --> 00:47:52,864
That's good news, actually.

1214
00:47:53,004 --> 00:47:53,344
I know.

1215
00:47:53,544 --> 00:47:54,464
You're saying the lunch spot.

1216
00:47:54,464 --> 00:47:55,024
The lunch lady.

1217
00:47:55,224 --> 00:47:56,144
She was like, well, she's like.

1218
00:47:56,144 --> 00:47:56,804
Oh, Cafe RX.

1219
00:47:56,904 --> 00:47:57,124
Yeah.

1220
00:47:57,464 --> 00:48:00,164
And she's not anti it, but she was like, listen, she's super nice.

1221
00:48:00,304 --> 00:48:02,904
But she was like, I could tell she was like, oh, God, the Bitcoiners.

1222
00:48:03,164 --> 00:48:05,624
She was like, listen, she's like, there's only one of me back here.

1223
00:48:05,684 --> 00:48:06,144
It's complex.

1224
00:48:06,424 --> 00:48:07,044
I have all this stuff.

1225
00:48:07,464 --> 00:48:09,224
My life is very complex.

1226
00:48:09,384 --> 00:48:11,084
I don't want, like, she's not anti it.

1227
00:48:11,144 --> 00:48:12,664
She just like is like, I don't want complexity.

1228
00:48:13,084 --> 00:48:17,184
And I was like, well, what if it was simple as like you just have to shift one toggle and it's done forever?

1229
00:48:17,284 --> 00:48:19,444
She was like, if it can become that simple, we can talk.

1230
00:48:19,804 --> 00:48:19,824
Okay.

1231
00:48:20,024 --> 00:48:21,724
Well, November 10th, we'll go back and talk to her.

1232
00:48:21,764 --> 00:48:22,624
So we should go back and talk to her.

1233
00:48:22,884 --> 00:48:24,264
My tea lady was fascinated.

1234
00:48:24,524 --> 00:48:25,784
And I'm super excited, actually.

1235
00:48:25,784 --> 00:48:27,104
A little bit of an alpha drop.

1236
00:48:27,104 --> 00:48:27,964
You boys ready for some alpha?

1237
00:48:28,184 --> 00:48:28,364
Yeah.

1238
00:48:28,984 --> 00:48:30,224
At the Type 1 Summit,

1239
00:48:30,504 --> 00:48:31,784
thanks to the homie Alex over here,

1240
00:48:31,804 --> 00:48:32,584
we've been working on this.

1241
00:48:32,704 --> 00:48:34,844
We have one of the only,

1242
00:48:34,984 --> 00:48:38,824
I think it's like six recognized T-masters

1243
00:48:38,824 --> 00:48:40,824
as recognized by the Japanese government

1244
00:48:40,824 --> 00:48:42,144
who will be preparing a cincha.

1245
00:48:42,564 --> 00:48:42,804
Wow.

1246
00:48:43,204 --> 00:48:44,024
It's going to be excellent.

1247
00:48:44,404 --> 00:48:45,144
It's going to be, yeah.

1248
00:48:45,324 --> 00:48:46,004
This is what I'm saying.

1249
00:48:46,104 --> 00:48:46,524
This is some high-

1250
00:48:46,524 --> 00:48:47,364
Does he accept Bitcoin?

1251
00:48:47,804 --> 00:48:48,724
Well, not yet.

1252
00:48:48,884 --> 00:48:49,284
Not yet.

1253
00:48:49,364 --> 00:48:49,484
Okay.

1254
00:48:49,584 --> 00:48:50,604
But it's a woman, actually.

1255
00:48:50,804 --> 00:48:50,944
Okay.

1256
00:48:51,824 --> 00:48:52,424
And-

1257
00:48:52,424 --> 00:49:04,068
Can we get her set up this is the hope And so there two women Well there two There one So my primary tea dealer is in Japantown She excellent

1258
00:49:04,188 --> 00:49:07,588
She gets super high-end, super, super high-quality Japanese teas from Japan.

1259
00:49:08,268 --> 00:49:12,408
And her friend is the one that comes and does all the tea.

1260
00:49:12,688 --> 00:49:13,728
She's even going to do a little ceremony.

1261
00:49:13,828 --> 00:49:14,628
I think we'll come in a kimono.

1262
00:49:14,708 --> 00:49:15,448
That's going to be really cool.

1263
00:49:16,388 --> 00:49:16,988
It's going to be nice.

1264
00:49:17,528 --> 00:49:22,248
But the first woman has a shop, and so she already uses Squares.

1265
00:49:22,248 --> 00:49:22,868
So it'd be super easy.

1266
00:49:22,868 --> 00:49:23,668
and I asked her about that.

1267
00:49:23,768 --> 00:49:24,228
And she at first,

1268
00:49:24,328 --> 00:49:25,768
she wasn't anti or positive.

1269
00:49:25,888 --> 00:49:26,608
She was just kind of, huh.

1270
00:49:27,048 --> 00:49:27,528
She was like, okay,

1271
00:49:27,588 --> 00:49:28,568
well, let's chat when it's easy.

1272
00:49:29,148 --> 00:49:30,468
Did she already know what it was?

1273
00:49:31,008 --> 00:49:31,648
Not, I mean,

1274
00:49:31,668 --> 00:49:32,588
I mean, she clearly had heard

1275
00:49:32,588 --> 00:49:33,148
the term Bitcoin

1276
00:49:33,148 --> 00:49:33,828
because I was like,

1277
00:49:33,948 --> 00:49:35,048
you know, and we've been friends.

1278
00:49:35,148 --> 00:49:35,648
I mean, I've got,

1279
00:49:35,888 --> 00:49:37,168
got a standing discount there

1280
00:49:37,168 --> 00:49:37,668
because I'm a,

1281
00:49:37,668 --> 00:49:39,408
I'm a meaningful customer

1282
00:49:39,408 --> 00:49:40,068
at the tea shop.

1283
00:49:40,648 --> 00:49:42,208
And yeah, so I mean,

1284
00:49:42,228 --> 00:49:42,968
I think coming from me,

1285
00:49:43,048 --> 00:49:44,568
she took it at least

1286
00:49:44,568 --> 00:49:45,228
somewhat seriously.

1287
00:49:45,228 --> 00:49:46,108
And I said, I would do this.

1288
00:49:46,108 --> 00:49:47,228
And she was, she was curious.

1289
00:49:47,608 --> 00:49:47,708
Cool.

1290
00:49:48,188 --> 00:49:49,308
But again, I think the key

1291
00:49:49,308 --> 00:49:50,088
is all these people

1292
00:49:50,088 --> 00:49:50,728
are just going to be like,

1293
00:49:50,728 --> 00:49:51,388
it needs to be easy.

1294
00:49:51,488 --> 00:49:53,228
And so if it really is click a toggle, done.

1295
00:49:53,928 --> 00:49:54,808
Yeah, it is easy.

1296
00:49:55,228 --> 00:49:56,088
Now you had an experience

1297
00:49:56,088 --> 00:49:57,628
where the person had never heard of Bitcoin.

1298
00:49:57,788 --> 00:49:57,948
Yeah.

1299
00:49:58,068 --> 00:49:58,768
How's that possible?

1300
00:49:58,888 --> 00:50:00,568
I honestly am shocked by that.

1301
00:50:00,868 --> 00:50:02,248
I was kind of surprised,

1302
00:50:02,408 --> 00:50:06,368
but I mean, this is actually my favorite burrito shop

1303
00:50:06,368 --> 00:50:08,948
is Avatar's Punjabi Burritos.

1304
00:50:09,108 --> 00:50:09,828
Ooh, that's a good name.

1305
00:50:10,628 --> 00:50:11,368
They're all over.

1306
00:50:11,428 --> 00:50:12,908
There's a bunch of them around Marin,

1307
00:50:12,908 --> 00:50:17,028
but there's one that I go to kind of frequently

1308
00:50:17,028 --> 00:50:20,328
and it's a cash only place.

1309
00:50:20,728 --> 00:50:22,828
And they have cash only on the signs.

1310
00:50:23,128 --> 00:50:25,868
And they're very like, we don't want to talk about any of that.

1311
00:50:26,208 --> 00:50:28,248
And if it's not cash, it's trash.

1312
00:50:29,348 --> 00:50:33,768
So I asked him, I was like, oh, do you guys accept Bitcoin?

1313
00:50:34,328 --> 00:50:35,328
And he was like, no, no.

1314
00:50:35,328 --> 00:50:37,468
Was this the owner or just one of the tellers?

1315
00:50:37,548 --> 00:50:44,188
I think this was like, maybe not the owner of the whole multi thing,

1316
00:50:44,288 --> 00:50:45,448
but I think this was the manager.

1317
00:50:45,868 --> 00:50:47,248
The decision maker for this drop.

1318
00:50:47,528 --> 00:50:48,108
Yeah, yeah.

1319
00:50:49,028 --> 00:50:51,348
And he was like, oh, no, what is that?

1320
00:50:51,448 --> 00:50:53,768
And I was like, he's like, we don't really accept anything.

1321
00:50:53,988 --> 00:50:55,128
And I showed him my phone.

1322
00:50:55,188 --> 00:50:56,768
He's like, oh, this is like a digital thing.

1323
00:50:57,288 --> 00:50:59,348
It's like, oh, yeah, we don't really do that.

1324
00:50:59,608 --> 00:51:03,528
He's like, I can take a card, but I have to call it into the other shop to actually process it.

1325
00:51:03,568 --> 00:51:04,408
So I don't want to do that.

1326
00:51:04,688 --> 00:51:05,568
It's just like cash.

1327
00:51:06,248 --> 00:51:12,468
So he was not particularly receptive to anything digital.

1328
00:51:13,108 --> 00:51:15,848
Like they don't use Square, no Venmo, no Zelle.

1329
00:51:15,848 --> 00:51:18,288
I'm bullish on this guy

1330
00:51:18,288 --> 00:51:20,288
he's going to do well in the coming

1331
00:51:20,288 --> 00:51:21,188
solar apocalypse

1332
00:51:21,188 --> 00:51:23,988
a lot of tech people

1333
00:51:23,988 --> 00:51:25,688
I bet you have a lot of tech people come through here

1334
00:51:25,688 --> 00:51:27,268
a lot of tech people that I know

1335
00:51:27,268 --> 00:51:28,868
like to pay in Bitcoin

1336
00:51:28,868 --> 00:51:29,908
it's kind of like cash

1337
00:51:29,908 --> 00:51:31,768
digital cash

1338
00:51:31,768 --> 00:51:33,648
and I showed him

1339
00:51:33,648 --> 00:51:36,548
on my wallet what it looks like

1340
00:51:36,548 --> 00:51:37,288
on a digital wallet

1341
00:51:37,288 --> 00:51:38,668
and he was kind of like

1342
00:51:38,668 --> 00:51:39,348
okay

1343
00:51:39,348 --> 00:51:42,628
I don't think he really internalized

1344
00:51:42,628 --> 00:51:43,808
what I was talking about

1345
00:51:43,808 --> 00:51:45,428
but I said well

1346
00:51:45,428 --> 00:51:47,448
I bet you like gold, right?

1347
00:51:48,928 --> 00:51:51,068
And he's like, yeah, yeah, of course.

1348
00:51:51,188 --> 00:51:52,068
Of course.

1349
00:51:52,388 --> 00:51:53,828
I said, well, this is like digital gold.

1350
00:51:54,328 --> 00:51:57,988
So he just was not familiar at all with the concept of Bitcoin.

1351
00:51:58,268 --> 00:51:58,968
Never heard of it.

1352
00:51:59,128 --> 00:52:00,388
Didn't know the concepts of digital gold.

1353
00:52:00,468 --> 00:52:04,148
But I think he was mostly turned off by the fact that it was a digital experience.

1354
00:52:04,348 --> 00:52:11,628
We should try the sales pitch of saying, hey, how would you like receiving a gold coin for a burrito?

1355
00:52:12,028 --> 00:52:12,168
Yeah.

1356
00:52:13,108 --> 00:52:13,988
We can try it.

1357
00:52:14,128 --> 00:52:14,628
We can try it.

1358
00:52:15,428 --> 00:52:17,008
anyhow

1359
00:52:17,008 --> 00:52:18,588
well thanks for reporting

1360
00:52:18,588 --> 00:52:20,048
and did you do your homework?

1361
00:52:20,368 --> 00:52:20,708
yes Steve

1362
00:52:20,708 --> 00:52:21,588
I did not do

1363
00:52:21,588 --> 00:52:22,008
oh

1364
00:52:22,008 --> 00:52:24,388
I've indirectly done my homework

1365
00:52:24,388 --> 00:52:24,948
I did not

1366
00:52:24,948 --> 00:52:26,708
do the prescribed

1367
00:52:26,708 --> 00:52:28,068
you worked on some open source

1368
00:52:28,068 --> 00:52:31,508
I'm dealing stickers

1369
00:52:31,508 --> 00:52:33,928
but yes

1370
00:52:33,928 --> 00:52:34,668
I need to

1371
00:52:34,668 --> 00:52:35,788
I will report back

1372
00:52:35,788 --> 00:52:37,348
I'll report back

1373
00:52:37,348 --> 00:52:38,648
but by the way

1374
00:52:38,648 --> 00:52:40,168
on that topic

1375
00:52:40,168 --> 00:52:42,288
oh so one thing we should talk about

1376
00:52:42,288 --> 00:52:42,708
so

1377
00:52:42,708 --> 00:52:44,608
I met some interesting people

1378
00:52:44,608 --> 00:52:45,388
at the light spark thing

1379
00:52:45,388 --> 00:52:47,428
So we should touch on their announcement as well.

1380
00:52:47,828 --> 00:52:50,848
But one of the guys I met who I'm going to invite over,

1381
00:52:50,948 --> 00:52:52,028
I actually didn't realize they were still around,

1382
00:52:52,048 --> 00:52:52,888
I didn't realize they were still around,

1383
00:52:52,968 --> 00:52:53,968
was blockchain.com.

1384
00:52:54,408 --> 00:52:54,648
Oh, yeah.

1385
00:52:54,688 --> 00:52:55,648
Do you know they're still like operating?

1386
00:52:56,168 --> 00:52:57,868
I mean, I figure all these like early crypto companies

1387
00:52:57,868 --> 00:52:58,828
have like giant treasuries

1388
00:52:58,828 --> 00:53:01,968
because, you know, they're various, you know, whatever,

1389
00:53:02,108 --> 00:53:03,028
endeavors in crypto.

1390
00:53:03,328 --> 00:53:04,628
But it sounds like they're coming back to Bitcoin

1391
00:53:04,628 --> 00:53:05,048
instead of school.

1392
00:53:05,168 --> 00:53:06,268
And he was a nice guy where you could chat.

1393
00:53:06,648 --> 00:53:08,068
But he was telling me, I didn't realize,

1394
00:53:08,588 --> 00:53:10,188
you know, he was making the point

1395
00:53:10,188 --> 00:53:12,268
that a lot of folks like this Punjabi guy

1396
00:53:12,268 --> 00:53:13,248
or whatever you were talking about,

1397
00:53:14,348 --> 00:53:14,748
that...

1398
00:53:15,388 --> 00:53:17,348
you know, apparently in Costco,

1399
00:53:17,428 --> 00:53:18,488
I knew you could buy gold.

1400
00:53:18,688 --> 00:53:19,728
Apparently they're selling out,

1401
00:53:20,048 --> 00:53:20,868
which is interesting.

1402
00:53:21,708 --> 00:53:23,648
But apparently you can buy like a lot of gold.

1403
00:53:23,828 --> 00:53:24,468
Like he was like, oh yeah,

1404
00:53:24,588 --> 00:53:27,688
like 10 to like $100,000 worth of gold.

1405
00:53:27,748 --> 00:53:28,548
I don't know if that's true,

1406
00:53:28,628 --> 00:53:30,188
but that sounds kind of insane to me.

1407
00:53:30,248 --> 00:53:30,688
At Costco?

1408
00:53:30,908 --> 00:53:31,208
Yeah.

1409
00:53:31,868 --> 00:53:33,088
Why does that sound?

1410
00:53:33,568 --> 00:53:33,968
Why is that?

1411
00:53:34,628 --> 00:53:35,008
I mean.

1412
00:53:35,208 --> 00:53:35,708
I don't know.

1413
00:53:35,788 --> 00:53:37,488
That's like a lot of money to spend at Costco.

1414
00:53:37,488 --> 00:53:38,668
I think there are daily limits.

1415
00:53:38,968 --> 00:53:40,748
But $100,000 of gold,

1416
00:53:40,828 --> 00:53:43,568
like it's a small portion of your palm of your hand.

1417
00:53:43,588 --> 00:53:44,008
Is that true?

1418
00:53:44,148 --> 00:53:44,768
I'm, I.

1419
00:53:45,768 --> 00:53:46,768
I'm the opposite of this guy.

1420
00:53:46,768 --> 00:53:48,348
I have no idea what the physical world...

1421
00:53:48,348 --> 00:53:50,208
We should teach you about gold.

1422
00:53:50,268 --> 00:53:51,688
Gold is this new money.

1423
00:53:52,568 --> 00:53:53,588
I'm not anti-gold.

1424
00:53:53,688 --> 00:53:55,628
I don't know what to do with it.

1425
00:53:55,708 --> 00:54:00,588
You can have like 10 one-ounce coins,

1426
00:54:00,928 --> 00:54:03,668
and that would be $43,000.

1427
00:54:04,208 --> 00:54:04,508
For real?

1428
00:54:04,868 --> 00:54:06,248
How much is a bar?

1429
00:54:06,328 --> 00:54:07,008
Like a big-ass bar?

1430
00:54:08,008 --> 00:54:09,888
Think of the size of a quarter

1431
00:54:09,888 --> 00:54:12,148
that's about two inches tall.

1432
00:54:12,348 --> 00:54:14,548
A tube can hold 10...

1433
00:54:14,768 --> 00:54:21,848
ounces, 10 coins, and that's $43,000. So, I mean, if I held my palm out like this, I could have like

1434
00:54:21,848 --> 00:54:29,748
half a million dollars. Like an average home in the U.S., I think is 400K. So you could hold all

1435
00:54:29,748 --> 00:54:34,228
of the value of an average home in the U.S. in the palm of your hand. I'm getting longer gold. Wow.

1436
00:54:34,708 --> 00:54:41,928
Yeah. Gold is up. I've heard. We should actually touch on that point. Okay, so it's up a lot.

1437
00:54:41,928 --> 00:54:45,488
let's talk about gold but one last thing i just want to mention from this guy which i thought was

1438
00:54:45,488 --> 00:54:49,228
interesting he made the point to me that he was like particularly for some of this like older

1439
00:54:49,228 --> 00:54:53,268
generation that likes gold and probably a lot of immigrants people from india he was like you need

1440
00:54:53,268 --> 00:54:59,068
to be able to go into costco and like it would be an interesting product and buy a physical bitcoin

1441
00:54:59,068 --> 00:55:04,868
and i remember they had these back in the old days the cash coins and then there was a ballet

1442
00:55:04,868 --> 00:55:09,768
crypto these like thick thick metal cards that had like stickers and i don't know how they did

1443
00:55:09,768 --> 00:55:12,128
implemented all this stuff to make sure no one jacked your coins.

1444
00:55:12,548 --> 00:55:13,768
But I thought that was an interesting point.

1445
00:55:13,908 --> 00:55:16,008
I imagine there is

1446
00:55:16,008 --> 00:55:17,248
probably a meaningful market.

1447
00:55:17,348 --> 00:55:19,488
I've seen in Australia and all these places

1448
00:55:19,488 --> 00:55:21,928
that are lining up down the block to buy gold

1449
00:55:21,928 --> 00:55:23,388
as the global economy collapses.

1450
00:55:24,048 --> 00:55:26,048
If Costco is selling out nonstop,

1451
00:55:26,488 --> 00:55:28,428
I do think it'd be interesting for this guy

1452
00:55:28,428 --> 00:55:29,188
at your burrito place.

1453
00:55:29,268 --> 00:55:32,008
Maybe he won't take your newfangled internet thing,

1454
00:55:32,268 --> 00:55:34,208
but if you went to him with a giant heavy coin,

1455
00:55:34,308 --> 00:55:35,088
you're like, this is Bitcoin.

1456
00:55:36,448 --> 00:55:37,368
I don't know. I think it's interesting.

1457
00:55:37,368 --> 00:55:39,908
meaning to help

1458
00:55:39,908 --> 00:55:41,448
Selma on the idea

1459
00:55:41,448 --> 00:55:43,188
not actually pay him with that

1460
00:55:43,188 --> 00:55:44,488
maybe you could do both

1461
00:55:44,488 --> 00:55:47,148
he doesn't understand how to value it

1462
00:55:47,148 --> 00:55:49,208
I mean I think

1463
00:55:49,208 --> 00:55:50,428
open dimes are super cool

1464
00:55:50,428 --> 00:55:52,168
yeah but open dime is cool

1465
00:55:52,168 --> 00:55:55,528
you have the denomination issue

1466
00:55:55,528 --> 00:55:56,748
how do you do change

1467
00:55:56,748 --> 00:55:58,828
I think there's a couple ways to go

1468
00:55:58,828 --> 00:56:00,668
open dime is cool but that's kind of very cyberpunk

1469
00:56:00,668 --> 00:56:01,928
that feels like you're like

1470
00:56:01,928 --> 00:56:05,008
imagine a cooler coin

1471
00:56:05,008 --> 00:56:06,568
but it's still the same problem

1472
00:56:06,568 --> 00:56:06,968
Exactly.

1473
00:56:07,068 --> 00:56:08,308
Like it has so much value on it.

1474
00:56:08,668 --> 00:56:09,508
It's not the value

1475
00:56:09,508 --> 00:56:10,448
what I want to pay

1476
00:56:10,448 --> 00:56:11,808
for the burrito.

1477
00:56:12,088 --> 00:56:12,608
Then how do you,

1478
00:56:12,748 --> 00:56:13,948
how do you get your,

1479
00:56:13,968 --> 00:56:14,988
I think there's a tree here

1480
00:56:14,988 --> 00:56:15,808
and I think both are interesting.

1481
00:56:15,948 --> 00:56:16,508
Maybe this actually

1482
00:56:16,508 --> 00:56:17,108
could be an opportunity

1483
00:56:17,108 --> 00:56:18,228
for a startup or Square

1484
00:56:18,228 --> 00:56:19,128
or whatever is like

1485
00:56:19,128 --> 00:56:21,048
to provide the technology

1486
00:56:21,048 --> 00:56:21,788
to do this.

1487
00:56:21,908 --> 00:56:22,608
But I mean,

1488
00:56:22,648 --> 00:56:23,328
one thing you could do

1489
00:56:23,328 --> 00:56:24,628
for the actual just like

1490
00:56:24,628 --> 00:56:27,168
commerce is like paper bills.

1491
00:56:27,608 --> 00:56:28,028
And this is something

1492
00:56:28,028 --> 00:56:28,648
that actually Danny

1493
00:56:28,648 --> 00:56:29,448
was really interested in doing

1494
00:56:29,448 --> 00:56:29,768
for a while.

1495
00:56:29,848 --> 00:56:30,728
And some people were doing this,

1496
00:56:30,788 --> 00:56:31,548
if I recall,

1497
00:56:31,688 --> 00:56:32,508
like seven years ago

1498
00:56:32,508 --> 00:56:32,808
or something,

1499
00:56:32,808 --> 00:56:34,208
where you get like a piece,

1500
00:56:34,308 --> 00:56:35,508
like a dollar bill

1501
00:56:35,508 --> 00:56:38,408
and there's some kind of either scratch-off code

1502
00:56:38,408 --> 00:56:40,248
or some way to verify there's still a big one on there,

1503
00:56:40,268 --> 00:56:42,368
but it's very, very tiny denominations.

1504
00:56:42,648 --> 00:56:44,208
When I say dominated, like $50.

1505
00:56:44,208 --> 00:56:45,648
Isn't the Sabbath card kind of does this?

1506
00:56:45,848 --> 00:56:48,248
Yeah, and also an eCash project

1507
00:56:48,248 --> 00:56:50,808
created cool-looking paper bills

1508
00:56:50,808 --> 00:56:53,588
that could have eCash tokens embedded in them.

1509
00:56:53,688 --> 00:56:53,868
Yeah.

1510
00:56:54,808 --> 00:56:57,368
So whether it's private keys or eCash tokens,

1511
00:56:57,968 --> 00:57:00,568
all of those have the trust element,

1512
00:57:00,568 --> 00:57:03,008
but I don't think it's a showstopper.

1513
00:57:03,008 --> 00:57:04,968
I do think it's

1514
00:57:04,968 --> 00:57:05,848
for the reasons you're saying

1515
00:57:05,848 --> 00:57:06,648
it's pretty compelling

1516
00:57:06,648 --> 00:57:08,488
especially to someone new

1517
00:57:08,488 --> 00:57:09,028
to have something

1518
00:57:09,028 --> 00:57:10,048
they can touch and feel

1519
00:57:10,048 --> 00:57:12,848
I think the important thing is

1520
00:57:12,848 --> 00:57:14,608
like if it's enough value

1521
00:57:14,608 --> 00:57:17,488
that there's

1522
00:57:17,488 --> 00:57:20,408
that people realize

1523
00:57:20,408 --> 00:57:21,148
they need to get it

1524
00:57:21,148 --> 00:57:22,368
off of that

1525
00:57:22,368 --> 00:57:23,948
well or do they

1526
00:57:23,948 --> 00:57:24,808
I mean so just

1527
00:57:24,808 --> 00:57:25,828
I think they do

1528
00:57:25,828 --> 00:57:26,528
because like let's say

1529
00:57:26,528 --> 00:57:27,708
it's a Cassius coin

1530
00:57:27,708 --> 00:57:28,848
and it's worth like

1531
00:57:28,848 --> 00:57:30,948
$50,000 or $100,000 or something

1532
00:57:30,948 --> 00:57:32,948
it's super risky

1533
00:57:32,948 --> 00:57:35,428
having that bearer token with no backup.

1534
00:57:35,768 --> 00:57:37,628
Like, for example, I had an OpenDime,

1535
00:57:38,588 --> 00:57:43,388
and I gave that to some folks I know,

1536
00:57:43,608 --> 00:57:45,828
and this was like in 2017, 2018.

1537
00:57:45,828 --> 00:57:49,708
I would pay them back from groceries and stuff like that.

1538
00:57:50,768 --> 00:57:51,528
Very expensive groceries.

1539
00:57:51,708 --> 00:57:53,788
Well, and all of a sudden, I mean,

1540
00:57:53,848 --> 00:57:56,248
literally I was just paying back from splitting bills and stuff,

1541
00:57:56,368 --> 00:57:58,968
and then now it's worth like $50,000 or something.

1542
00:57:59,328 --> 00:58:02,188
So then I started getting nervous about it's sitting on this OpenDime,

1543
00:58:02,188 --> 00:58:06,328
And like if that somehow gets lost or destroyed, the money's gone.

1544
00:58:06,988 --> 00:58:09,748
So got them moved over to a BitKey.

1545
00:58:09,868 --> 00:58:14,868
So you're like, you're not taking advantage of an enormous advantage of Bitcoin over gold,

1546
00:58:14,948 --> 00:58:17,608
which is you can duplicate and back up.

1547
00:58:17,808 --> 00:58:18,208
I agree.

1548
00:58:18,368 --> 00:58:19,888
And there should be a path off of that.

1549
00:58:19,928 --> 00:58:22,588
And that's why maybe it's interesting for Square because you have BitKey and maybe there's

1550
00:58:22,588 --> 00:58:25,668
like a way to be the technology provider that allows you to give you that path when you're

1551
00:58:25,668 --> 00:58:25,888
ready.

1552
00:58:26,328 --> 00:58:31,748
But you also have to acknowledge that if people are lining up at Costco and are apparently

1553
00:58:31,748 --> 00:58:35,048
having half a million dollars in their palms and they're comfortable with that there is a market

1554
00:58:35,048 --> 00:58:40,568
for that and but still there's a huge difference like with gold um i mean it can survive fire and

1555
00:58:40,568 --> 00:58:45,048
like it so could this though right like i guess my point is like you know those like ballet crypto

1556
00:58:45,048 --> 00:58:49,428
cards or a little digital device i think we're talking about two different things i'm talking

1557
00:58:49,428 --> 00:58:52,928
about you have like a heavy like if you're doing let's say you have fifty thousand dollars on here

1558
00:58:52,928 --> 00:58:57,648
shouldn't be on a damn open we're talking on like a hundred dollar metal card like something thick

1559
00:58:57,648 --> 00:59:03,928
heavy you put into a safe it'll melt like well like the survivability of gold is better than any

1560
00:59:03,928 --> 00:59:08,948
kind of private key okay here's a crazy idea put it on i don't know gold or platinum and then now

1561
00:59:08,948 --> 00:59:13,848
now you got double out of bling right all i'm saying is like there are a lot of people who

1562
00:59:13,848 --> 00:59:18,828
understand this idea of i have this thing i put it in a vault if i lose this thing i lose it and

1563
00:59:18,828 --> 00:59:23,148
they're okay with that that risk profile and it's great if then over time oh i now realize it's

1564
00:59:23,148 --> 00:59:26,988
digital i can kind of offer it but again so i think there's actually a good transition point

1565
00:59:26,988 --> 00:59:31,668
you know i had an lp email i mean it's kind of funny he's like hey man like just curious like

1566
00:59:31,668 --> 00:59:36,148
why is gold mooning while bitcoin is not it's like well first of all again what time frame are we

1567
00:59:36,148 --> 00:59:40,648
talking about like two years ago bitcoin was like under 30k right so you know what are we talking

1568
00:59:40,648 --> 00:59:46,508
about mooning um but it to your point steve you can't argue that like big gold is just crushing

1569
00:59:46,508 --> 00:59:51,248
right now and so one debate i've had with various people in chat it's up to like 30 trillion dollars

1570
00:59:51,248 --> 00:59:56,168
is it really the market cap of gold it was 10 trillion just a bit ago yeah now it's 30

1571
00:59:56,168 --> 00:59:58,548
Is that in the last year or so?

1572
00:59:58,628 --> 01:00:03,468
Well, it's gone from 1,600 to, I mean, it floated around 1,600, 1,700 forever, and now it's 4,300.

1573
01:00:03,708 --> 01:00:04,168
No mommies.

1574
01:00:04,968 --> 01:00:08,468
I mean, just in the last two months, it's gone from like 3,000 to 4,300.

1575
01:00:08,588 --> 01:00:11,868
Is there some sort of like obvious explanation for that?

1576
01:00:11,908 --> 01:00:16,488
Is it like repatriation or some geopolitical concerns and stuff like that?

1577
01:00:17,548 --> 01:00:21,048
Probably central banks buying China, Russia.

1578
01:00:21,048 --> 01:00:22,308
So this is the question.

1579
01:00:22,308 --> 01:00:23,388
and this is what I'm getting hit with

1580
01:00:23,388 --> 01:00:25,448
and debating with people in various chats

1581
01:00:25,448 --> 01:00:27,148
and having LPs asking me is like,

1582
01:00:27,628 --> 01:00:28,968
you know, they're like, you know, okay, well,

1583
01:00:29,488 --> 01:00:32,188
basically, why is it gold and not Bitcoin yet?

1584
01:00:32,748 --> 01:00:33,968
And my simple answer, I mean,

1585
01:00:34,348 --> 01:00:35,448
short answer, no one knows, right?

1586
01:00:35,488 --> 01:00:36,808
Like, you can just guess.

1587
01:00:36,948 --> 01:00:38,708
My guess is old people still run the world.

1588
01:00:39,448 --> 01:00:41,188
And the old people are still comfortable with gold

1589
01:00:41,188 --> 01:00:42,208
because they know it, they get the narrative.

1590
01:00:42,428 --> 01:00:44,108
So, you know, I heard someone else saying this

1591
01:00:44,108 --> 01:00:45,368
and I kind of agree with him that like,

1592
01:00:45,428 --> 01:00:47,268
this is probably the last cycle

1593
01:00:47,268 --> 01:00:49,708
where gold is what moons

1594
01:00:49,708 --> 01:00:51,088
while there's an economic crisis.

1595
01:00:51,088 --> 01:00:52,788
and maybe the next one is Bitcoin.

1596
01:00:53,108 --> 01:00:54,228
Also central banks.

1597
01:00:55,148 --> 01:00:56,348
I mean, for that reason,

1598
01:00:56,408 --> 01:00:57,608
because who runs central banks?

1599
01:00:58,068 --> 01:00:59,008
Well, and also central banks

1600
01:00:59,008 --> 01:01:00,968
have a process for how to custody gold

1601
01:01:00,968 --> 01:01:02,048
and they don't have a process

1602
01:01:02,048 --> 01:01:03,068
for how to custody Bitcoin.

1603
01:01:03,188 --> 01:01:04,268
They can't just go on an exchange,

1604
01:01:04,408 --> 01:01:06,048
buy some, you know, chuck it in the...

1605
01:01:06,048 --> 01:01:06,848
Who's doing that, by the way?

1606
01:01:06,888 --> 01:01:08,288
That seems like an incredible opportunity

1607
01:01:08,288 --> 01:01:09,808
to be like the service provider

1608
01:01:09,808 --> 01:01:10,588
for central banks.

1609
01:01:12,488 --> 01:01:13,708
I don't really want to promote

1610
01:01:13,708 --> 01:01:14,828
the person who's doing it.

1611
01:01:16,068 --> 01:01:16,728
That's a startup?

1612
01:01:18,608 --> 01:01:18,968
Yeah.

1613
01:01:19,208 --> 01:01:19,988
We should chat more about it.

1614
01:01:19,988 --> 01:01:20,648
I like that startup.

1615
01:01:20,648 --> 01:01:23,448
Maybe we'll fund an alternative one.

1616
01:01:23,708 --> 01:01:23,808
Yeah.

1617
01:01:24,888 --> 01:01:25,528
The open source.

1618
01:01:26,488 --> 01:01:29,368
You're just saying you don't want central banks owning Bitcoin?

1619
01:01:29,808 --> 01:01:30,288
I didn't.

1620
01:01:30,608 --> 01:01:31,728
What are you getting at there?

1621
01:01:32,188 --> 01:01:36,328
I don't want to promote not crazy people.

1622
01:01:37,268 --> 01:01:37,648
Oh, okay.

1623
01:01:37,788 --> 01:01:38,208
Their startup.

1624
01:01:39,488 --> 01:01:42,368
Oh, so there's a specific startup that we don't want to.

1625
01:01:42,428 --> 01:01:43,168
Oh, I think I may.

1626
01:01:43,448 --> 01:01:44,708
The thing which shall not be spoken.

1627
01:01:45,448 --> 01:01:45,668
Okay.

1628
01:01:46,028 --> 01:01:47,508
We should chat more about all this.

1629
01:01:47,508 --> 01:01:49,368
but oh, okay, so we're getting

1630
01:01:49,368 --> 01:01:52,068
a bunch of actual traction in the thing.

1631
01:01:52,688 --> 01:01:53,988
Ha ha, Coinbase Max.

1632
01:01:54,108 --> 01:01:54,828
Okay, so they're going to be

1633
01:01:54,828 --> 01:01:55,828
cussing the central banks.

1634
01:01:56,428 --> 01:01:57,868
Yeah, well then we need some alternatives.

1635
01:01:58,188 --> 01:01:59,188
I wonder if River could do this.

1636
01:02:03,188 --> 01:02:04,108
Seems like a big opportunity.

1637
01:02:04,608 --> 01:02:06,048
And then we should give a shout out.

1638
01:02:06,208 --> 01:02:07,748
But I think, I mean, yes,

1639
01:02:07,988 --> 01:02:08,668
River should do it,

1640
01:02:08,728 --> 01:02:12,288
but if I'm China,

1641
01:02:12,468 --> 01:02:13,848
I'm not going to store my Bitcoin

1642
01:02:13,848 --> 01:02:15,348
with an American company.

1643
01:02:15,348 --> 01:02:16,168
Cool, then that means

1644
01:02:16,168 --> 01:02:16,988
there's lots of opportunity.

1645
01:02:16,988 --> 01:02:26,748
There needs to be better self-custody solutions and processes for a government or large sovereign fund.

1646
01:02:26,748 --> 01:02:28,348
Like who's cussing for El Salvador?

1647
01:02:28,568 --> 01:02:29,088
Probably Coinbase.

1648
01:02:29,128 --> 01:02:29,968
Who's cussing for Bhutan?

1649
01:02:30,288 --> 01:02:31,648
BitGo did at one point.

1650
01:02:31,908 --> 01:02:32,688
Who's doing it for Bhutan?

1651
01:02:33,708 --> 01:02:34,268
I don't know.

1652
01:02:34,608 --> 01:02:35,688
But it's probably American companies.

1653
01:02:35,688 --> 01:02:38,648
China doesn't want to just adopt whatever El Salvador's doing.

1654
01:02:38,848 --> 01:02:45,628
A lot of people are using American companies, but that's at best a temporary band-aid.

1655
01:02:45,628 --> 01:02:46,908
It's very dumb.

1656
01:02:46,988 --> 01:02:49,208
It's literally repeating gold.

1657
01:02:49,508 --> 01:02:51,848
So it's, again, not taking advantage of

1658
01:02:51,848 --> 01:02:54,008
properties of Bitcoin.

1659
01:02:54,128 --> 01:02:55,508
Maybe some of these companies could

1660
01:02:55,508 --> 01:02:58,068
provide the consulting

1661
01:02:58,068 --> 01:02:59,688
and solutions.

1662
01:03:00,968 --> 01:03:02,188
This is a terrible analogy,

1663
01:03:02,308 --> 01:03:03,488
but Palantir for self-care.

1664
01:03:03,728 --> 01:03:04,708
They're like, it's essentially,

1665
01:03:04,868 --> 01:03:06,028
I know it's a terrible idea,

1666
01:03:06,408 --> 01:03:08,728
but it's effectively a consulting company

1667
01:03:08,728 --> 01:03:10,468
to help these guys do that.

1668
01:03:10,688 --> 01:03:12,068
Because again, I come back to you,

1669
01:03:12,068 --> 01:03:12,688
these guys are old.

1670
01:03:13,968 --> 01:03:15,568
Anyways, but I also want to give a shout out

1671
01:03:15,568 --> 01:03:16,208
to the homie

1672
01:03:16,208 --> 01:03:17,288
Barris Wheel

1673
01:03:17,288 --> 01:03:20,968
who is a fun guy.

1674
01:03:21,568 --> 01:03:22,168
He got to me here recently.

1675
01:03:22,808 --> 01:03:23,548
What's up, Barris?

1676
01:03:23,828 --> 01:03:24,208
And he says,

1677
01:03:24,268 --> 01:03:25,128
Stephen Pinker calls

1678
01:03:25,128 --> 01:03:25,968
this common knowledge

1679
01:03:25,968 --> 01:03:26,588
in his new book

1680
01:03:26,588 --> 01:03:27,088
when people know

1681
01:03:27,088 --> 01:03:27,748
there's no BTC

1682
01:03:27,748 --> 01:03:28,768
is accepted via merchants.

1683
01:03:28,968 --> 01:03:29,688
It should help scale

1684
01:03:29,688 --> 01:03:30,468
the PR specifically.

1685
01:03:30,868 --> 01:03:32,068
He replied to my tweet

1686
01:03:32,068 --> 01:03:32,568
with that too

1687
01:03:32,568 --> 01:03:33,868
and I skimmed through

1688
01:03:33,868 --> 01:03:34,508
the interview

1689
01:03:34,508 --> 01:03:35,368
with Stephen Pinker.

1690
01:03:35,468 --> 01:03:36,108
It was pretty interesting.

1691
01:03:36,428 --> 01:03:36,528
Yeah.

1692
01:03:37,148 --> 01:03:37,348
Nice.

1693
01:03:37,388 --> 01:03:37,908
What was the interview?

1694
01:03:39,748 --> 01:03:40,748
This was like...

1695
01:03:40,748 --> 01:03:42,668
It was at...

1696
01:03:42,668 --> 01:03:43,268
Oh, I forget.

1697
01:03:43,408 --> 01:03:44,108
It was an event here

1698
01:03:44,108 --> 01:03:44,788
in Silicon Valley

1699
01:03:44,788 --> 01:03:45,648
down in Santa Clara.

1700
01:03:45,848 --> 01:03:47,048
Did he go on

1701
01:03:47,048 --> 01:03:48,068
Tyler Cowen recently?

1702
01:03:48,628 --> 01:03:49,208
I feel like I heard

1703
01:03:49,208 --> 01:03:50,848
some clips of that.

1704
01:03:51,008 --> 01:03:51,368
But I mean,

1705
01:03:51,528 --> 01:03:52,968
he recently wrote a book

1706
01:03:52,968 --> 01:03:55,168
about like common,

1707
01:03:55,448 --> 01:03:57,848
what is common knowledge?

1708
01:03:57,988 --> 01:03:58,908
It was at the Commonwealth.

1709
01:03:58,988 --> 01:03:59,448
How does something

1710
01:03:59,448 --> 01:04:00,408
become common knowledge?

1711
01:04:00,788 --> 01:04:01,788
What is the definition

1712
01:04:01,788 --> 01:04:02,608
of common knowledge

1713
01:04:02,608 --> 01:04:03,388
and how does it get

1714
01:04:03,388 --> 01:04:03,928
to that point?

1715
01:04:04,248 --> 01:04:05,308
And like obviously money

1716
01:04:05,308 --> 01:04:06,408
is like an interesting

1717
01:04:06,408 --> 01:04:07,428
thing to study

1718
01:04:07,428 --> 01:04:08,208
regarding that.

1719
01:04:09,328 --> 01:04:10,448
And so it's related

1720
01:04:10,448 --> 01:04:11,248
to the stickers thing.

1721
01:04:11,508 --> 01:04:11,668
Yeah.

1722
01:04:12,268 --> 01:04:12,928
Another theory

1723
01:04:12,928 --> 01:04:13,928
on the gold stuff

1724
01:04:13,928 --> 01:04:14,568
that I heard floated

1725
01:04:14,568 --> 01:04:16,568
I don't know if you guys have any opinion on this,

1726
01:04:16,668 --> 01:04:19,148
but I think I heard that there may be,

1727
01:04:19,648 --> 01:04:22,788
I think U.S. Treasury holds a lot of gold,

1728
01:04:22,888 --> 01:04:25,628
but it's priced at like 43 bucks an ounce or something.

1729
01:04:25,708 --> 01:04:26,228
So we hear.

1730
01:04:26,668 --> 01:04:27,048
Is that right?

1731
01:04:27,488 --> 01:04:31,248
But it's like purposely just priced from like the 70s

1732
01:04:31,248 --> 01:04:32,108
and they never repriced it.

1733
01:04:32,628 --> 01:04:35,928
And I've heard this theory that they're going to reprice it

1734
01:04:35,928 --> 01:04:40,088
and sell it in order to buy Bitcoin

1735
01:04:40,088 --> 01:04:42,708
for the Strategic Reserve in a budget neutral way.

1736
01:04:42,708 --> 01:04:46,368
meaning on the US accounting books

1737
01:04:46,368 --> 01:04:50,368
they've valued it at $40 or whatever

1738
01:04:50,368 --> 01:04:51,488
yeah something like that

1739
01:04:51,488 --> 01:04:54,188
and so if you re-value it at whatever it is

1740
01:04:54,188 --> 01:04:55,128
like whatever the price was

1741
01:04:55,128 --> 01:04:56,268
$4,300 or whatever

1742
01:04:56,268 --> 01:04:57,468
$1,70 or something like that

1743
01:04:57,468 --> 01:04:57,668
yeah

1744
01:04:57,668 --> 01:05:00,228
so if you do that then you actually can sell it

1745
01:05:00,228 --> 01:05:01,428
to whoever wants to buy it

1746
01:05:01,428 --> 01:05:02,068
China or whatever

1747
01:05:02,068 --> 01:05:03,868
you know where

1748
01:05:03,868 --> 01:05:05,768
and then you can use that to fund

1749
01:05:05,768 --> 01:05:07,468
a strategic reserve

1750
01:05:07,468 --> 01:05:09,108
is that why the price of Bitcoin has gone

1751
01:05:09,108 --> 01:05:10,528
from $125 to $105

1752
01:05:10,528 --> 01:05:17,328
I mean, I think that was part of the theory is that it might be trying to tank the market while doing this move to buy.

1753
01:05:17,508 --> 01:05:18,048
I know.

1754
01:05:18,308 --> 01:05:20,008
That seems very in line with Trump thinking.

1755
01:05:20,908 --> 01:05:22,988
I mean, if so, and he pulls it off, well, that'd be.

1756
01:05:23,208 --> 01:05:23,768
Part of the deal.

1757
01:05:24,088 --> 01:05:25,548
That'd be a gigabrain move.

1758
01:05:26,288 --> 01:05:27,688
I'm skeptical, but maybe.

1759
01:05:29,528 --> 01:05:37,088
One thing before I forget, I want to give a shout out to our Builder event, which is next Thursday.

1760
01:05:37,088 --> 01:05:37,528
Yeah.

1761
01:05:37,528 --> 01:05:40,468
So it's here at Presidity Bitcoin.

1762
01:05:40,868 --> 01:05:43,568
Starts at 6.30 p.m.

1763
01:05:44,048 --> 01:05:45,668
I think starts at 6 p.m. networking

1764
01:05:45,668 --> 01:05:47,528
and then the event starts at 6.30 p.m.

1765
01:05:47,588 --> 01:05:50,748
So we'll see as many people as possible come out.

1766
01:05:50,868 --> 01:05:53,348
We've been having, I think, around 25, 30 people show up.

1767
01:05:54,268 --> 01:05:57,688
We encourage as many people want to attend as possible.

1768
01:05:57,828 --> 01:05:59,948
You don't need to be a Bitcoiner.

1769
01:06:00,188 --> 01:06:01,928
You just need to care about innovation and building,

1770
01:06:02,508 --> 01:06:05,788
five coding, and talk about products and business.

1771
01:06:05,788 --> 01:06:07,068
That's the thrust.

1772
01:06:07,528 --> 01:06:12,988
And of course, there's like a Bitcoin theme to it, but it's really about innovation and

1773
01:06:12,988 --> 01:06:13,208
building.

1774
01:06:13,408 --> 01:06:15,368
So I hope to see more people coming out.

1775
01:06:15,648 --> 01:06:15,868
I love it.

1776
01:06:16,148 --> 01:06:21,688
And I did just want to also mention, so I went to the LightSpark Day thing and they had their

1777
01:06:21,688 --> 01:06:23,228
announcement grid, which I think is pretty interesting.

1778
01:06:23,408 --> 01:06:25,268
Did you guys look at this at all?

1779
01:06:25,268 --> 01:06:26,248
I think on the website, but I didn't study.

1780
01:06:26,528 --> 01:06:27,728
So tell us more about it.

1781
01:06:27,728 --> 01:06:30,328
So I think this is actually pretty practical.

1782
01:06:30,668 --> 01:06:33,568
So like what, you know, there's obviously all the Spark stuff.

1783
01:06:33,848 --> 01:06:35,088
And by the way, there's some really interesting.

1784
01:06:35,088 --> 01:06:44,268
I came away on the Spark side with a clear, I think their CTO, everyone on the team has the message like confidential transactions need to come.

1785
01:06:44,448 --> 01:06:46,728
So I think that was like a clear message that came away from that.

1786
01:06:47,308 --> 01:06:51,128
Like Spark being completely open is certainly not like in the long term roadmap.

1787
01:06:51,548 --> 01:06:53,408
So that was comforting and good for me to hear.

1788
01:06:54,288 --> 01:06:56,608
Completely open, meaning publishing the transactions?

1789
01:06:56,768 --> 01:07:02,048
Yeah, there was that whole sort of controversy where I forgot who was, but someone publicly, you could see like every transaction ever.

1790
01:07:02,048 --> 01:07:06,908
And it's interesting because there was one or two people on the team that was kind of like, well, that's how Bitcoin works.

1791
01:07:07,028 --> 01:07:08,368
And so isn't transparency better?

1792
01:07:08,568 --> 01:07:13,648
But I think the majority of the team, including their CTO, understands now we need confidential transactions here.

1793
01:07:13,808 --> 01:07:14,948
That's a non-starter.

1794
01:07:15,368 --> 01:07:16,028
That was very comforting.

1795
01:07:16,328 --> 01:07:20,268
To be clear, I think it's CDs for tokens, not for Bitcoin payments.

1796
01:07:20,368 --> 01:07:21,408
I thought it was for Bitcoin payments too.

1797
01:07:21,608 --> 01:07:22,928
No, just for their tokens.

1798
01:07:22,928 --> 01:07:37,528
But they do have some improvements, pragmatic improvements for privacy, which goes a pretty long ways addressing my concerns that I had stated.

1799
01:07:38,028 --> 01:07:38,908
Cool. Well, that's good to hear.

1800
01:07:38,908 --> 01:07:47,888
At a high level, it's clear that people that are designing things there understand having everything open is not the ideal state of the world.

1801
01:07:48,208 --> 01:07:49,988
And that's not what they tend to stick on.

1802
01:07:49,988 --> 01:07:50,528
So that's good.

1803
01:07:50,588 --> 01:07:53,688
And like, yeah, I think, you know, just remember everything is always a work in progress.

1804
01:07:53,688 --> 01:07:55,028
And like, yeah.

1805
01:07:55,188 --> 01:07:58,328
So anyway, so I'm excited to see them continue to move in a more private direction.

1806
01:07:58,408 --> 01:07:59,248
It seems like that's going to happen.

1807
01:08:00,148 --> 01:08:04,528
But what I thought was actually really cool and practical is the grid thing.

1808
01:08:04,628 --> 01:08:07,728
And I think the way I think about grid, and I certainly don't claim to be an expert on

1809
01:08:07,728 --> 01:08:15,568
it, but is, you know, really using Bitcoin as the neutral settlement layer between existing

1810
01:08:15,568 --> 01:08:16,728
real-time payment networks.

1811
01:08:16,728 --> 01:08:44,948
And so one of the cool things, you know, is you forget here in the United States, like, you know, sadly, a lot of our technology is still pretty hood. I mean, we do have stuff like Cash App and, you know, PayPal and stuff, which is all right. But we forget in, you know, countries like Brazil, and India with UPI and Mexico with SPA, I forget what I think SIPA is pretty good in Europe, I don't know. But like, there are a lot of really good functioning real time payment networks that just work. I guess that's what FedNow is trying to be in the United States.

1812
01:08:44,948 --> 01:08:49,608
and so I think a lot of the focus and thrust for them

1813
01:08:49,608 --> 01:08:53,768
is how do we use Bitcoin and Lightning or Spark,

1814
01:08:53,868 --> 01:08:55,228
like whatever's cheaper and better to use,

1815
01:08:55,648 --> 01:08:58,568
to be able to connect up institutions

1816
01:08:58,568 --> 01:09:00,968
within these countries that have the real-time networks,

1817
01:09:01,588 --> 01:09:04,948
offer up the commands to those real-time payment networks

1818
01:09:04,948 --> 01:09:07,088
as an API so the developers can easily say,

1819
01:09:07,208 --> 01:09:09,508
hey, I built an app where I don't even know where Bitcoin is,

1820
01:09:09,508 --> 01:09:12,568
but what I do know is I sent money from Brazil

1821
01:09:12,568 --> 01:09:13,888
and received money in India

1822
01:09:13,888 --> 01:09:16,548
and it taps into all three real-time payment networks,

1823
01:09:16,968 --> 01:09:23,148
Spay, or I forget the Brazil PIX, Bitcoin, and UPI.

1824
01:09:23,368 --> 01:09:24,308
And also interesting, I didn't realize

1825
01:09:24,308 --> 01:09:26,668
one of their chief product dudes helped design UPI.

1826
01:09:26,788 --> 01:09:27,768
That was kind of interesting to me to hear.

1827
01:09:28,348 --> 01:09:30,088
So what I like about that is,

1828
01:09:30,168 --> 01:09:32,768
and I think sometimes there's a bit of a divide

1829
01:09:32,768 --> 01:09:34,088
between sort of the Bitcoin community

1830
01:09:34,088 --> 01:09:36,189
and what they perceive a company like LightSpark to do.

1831
01:09:37,148 --> 01:09:39,208
What I think is really cool is there's,

1832
01:09:39,548 --> 01:09:42,168
you know, certainly the like Bitcoin or cypherpunk ethos

1833
01:09:42,168 --> 01:09:43,788
that we just want to exit the system, that's great.

1834
01:09:43,888 --> 01:09:46,028
And like, I'm glad that exists for everyone that wants it.

1835
01:09:46,208 --> 01:09:47,948
I think it's absolutely critical that anything,

1836
01:09:48,108 --> 01:09:49,328
you know, a company ever develops

1837
01:09:49,328 --> 01:09:51,048
be backwards compatible, things like Lightning,

1838
01:09:51,528 --> 01:09:54,228
and always gives the option for exit

1839
01:09:54,228 --> 01:09:55,088
for those that want it.

1840
01:09:55,348 --> 01:09:57,328
That's a, you know, clear,

1841
01:09:57,948 --> 01:09:59,128
if you don't have that, it's a non-starter.

1842
01:09:59,568 --> 01:10:00,088
Having said that,

1843
01:10:00,189 --> 01:10:01,488
what I think that LightSpark is coming out

1844
01:10:01,488 --> 01:10:02,468
is very practical is,

1845
01:10:02,528 --> 01:10:04,448
I think sometimes we lose in the Bitcoin communities.

1846
01:10:04,588 --> 01:10:05,689
Like most people just don't give a fuck.

1847
01:10:06,028 --> 01:10:07,328
And like, we would love them to give a fuck.

1848
01:10:07,408 --> 01:10:08,608
We really want them to care.

1849
01:10:08,689 --> 01:10:10,208
And like, we really hope we all get there,

1850
01:10:10,268 --> 01:10:11,728
but like, we also live in reality.

1851
01:10:12,288 --> 01:10:13,648
And what's really cool that I think

1852
01:10:13,648 --> 01:10:19,468
they're focused on is a separate problem, which is just how do you build the glue to connect all

1853
01:10:19,468 --> 01:10:23,868
of the existing payments, not to help people check out of the system, but rather to expand the amount

1854
01:10:23,868 --> 01:10:29,508
of commerce that happens in the traditional KYC world. And that's also extremely useful. So I'm

1855
01:10:29,508 --> 01:10:35,628
excited to see what people build. I mean, I think just my hunch is there's going to be a lot of

1856
01:10:35,628 --> 01:10:39,888
long tail, just like business payment opportunity for stuff like what happens when you have a lot

1857
01:10:39,888 --> 01:10:41,848
more commerce between Nigeria and Brazil

1858
01:10:41,848 --> 01:10:43,288
or Nigeria and

1859
01:10:43,288 --> 01:10:45,528
India. So I like it.

1860
01:10:45,668 --> 01:10:47,608
This is a one-day event? One-day event.

1861
01:10:47,648 --> 01:10:49,848
And you went to it? I'm curious, what are your

1862
01:10:49,848 --> 01:10:51,988
impressions? I think there are quite a few products

1863
01:10:51,988 --> 01:10:53,768
or integrations announced that were also

1864
01:10:53,768 --> 01:10:55,848
DeFi and tokens in that

1865
01:10:55,848 --> 01:10:57,189
world. What's your takeaway

1866
01:10:57,189 --> 01:10:59,788
on the split between stable

1867
01:10:59,788 --> 01:11:00,588
coin momentum

1868
01:11:00,588 --> 01:11:03,788
versus tokens

1869
01:11:03,788 --> 01:11:05,668
and DeFi versus Bitcoin

1870
01:11:05,668 --> 01:11:06,668
payments on Spark?

1871
01:11:08,248 --> 01:11:09,189
I mean,

1872
01:11:09,189 --> 01:11:12,628
Of the talks and chats that I participated in,

1873
01:11:13,328 --> 01:11:15,508
very little on the token front, to be honest.

1874
01:11:15,568 --> 01:11:16,528
I'm sure that's there.

1875
01:11:17,148 --> 01:11:19,268
I think that's mostly what Ethan is focusing on,

1876
01:11:19,488 --> 01:11:22,908
and maybe they'll, whatever, continue more integrations.

1877
01:11:23,068 --> 01:11:25,568
I would say dominant at the event was payments.

1878
01:11:26,148 --> 01:11:26,548
Dominant.

1879
01:11:27,348 --> 01:11:28,548
And I think what's interesting,

1880
01:11:29,048 --> 01:11:31,768
Christian, who's the chief strategy officer there,

1881
01:11:31,768 --> 01:11:33,488
he actually had a really nice talk

1882
01:11:33,488 --> 01:11:35,648
on the history of open networks.

1883
01:11:36,508 --> 01:11:38,508
And his first example was the Silk Road,

1884
01:11:38,508 --> 01:11:40,828
which I thought was interesting for many reasons.

1885
01:11:41,448 --> 01:11:43,788
But it was really nice to hear.

1886
01:11:43,968 --> 01:11:47,288
I mean, I will say it was by far my favorite part

1887
01:11:47,288 --> 01:11:48,408
or presentation there.

1888
01:11:48,868 --> 01:11:51,368
And it was good to see he was not LARPing.

1889
01:11:51,508 --> 01:11:52,468
He really has done his homework.

1890
01:11:52,588 --> 01:11:53,848
He really believes in open networks.

1891
01:11:53,948 --> 01:11:55,208
And that was great to see.

1892
01:11:56,028 --> 01:11:59,708
I think there was also, to be frank, frustration on their team.

1893
01:11:59,808 --> 01:12:02,208
Or maybe not frustration, but just exasperation.

1894
01:12:02,308 --> 01:12:03,648
I think a lot of us feel too,

1895
01:12:04,168 --> 01:12:06,448
where it's like the corp chain thing,

1896
01:12:06,448 --> 01:12:08,428
because it's like these guys all spun on a Facebook

1897
01:12:08,428 --> 01:12:10,108
and they tried to do Corp J in 2019.

1898
01:12:10,948 --> 01:12:13,448
And the reality is if they try to do that today

1899
01:12:13,448 --> 01:12:15,768
in 20, what year is this?

1900
01:12:15,848 --> 01:12:16,248
2025.

1901
01:12:19,048 --> 01:12:20,368
At least track of that sometimes.

1902
01:12:20,689 --> 01:12:24,128
Then it probably would have worked, to be frank.

1903
01:12:24,848 --> 01:12:26,408
But to your point, you've always made, Steve,

1904
01:12:26,628 --> 01:12:27,828
administrations change, right?

1905
01:12:27,908 --> 01:12:30,388
So I think there's some frustration on their part,

1906
01:12:30,428 --> 01:12:31,348
which I totally understand.

1907
01:12:31,448 --> 01:12:32,728
I feel the same way where it's like,

1908
01:12:32,728 --> 01:12:35,108
I mean, Stripe and all these scammy companies

1909
01:12:35,108 --> 01:12:37,148
are going to get away with stuff for a while.

1910
01:12:37,148 --> 01:12:41,108
but I think it was encouraging for me to see

1911
01:12:41,108 --> 01:12:43,128
from David all the way through the rest of the team

1912
01:12:43,128 --> 01:12:44,968
the commitment to like in the long run

1913
01:12:44,968 --> 01:12:45,968
open networks are going to win

1914
01:12:45,968 --> 01:12:48,248
we may have to go through the desert for three more years

1915
01:12:48,248 --> 01:12:49,208
or however long it is

1916
01:12:49,208 --> 01:12:51,768
but like eventually open networks have to win

1917
01:12:51,768 --> 01:12:54,068
because Stripe is never going to integrate with Audion

1918
01:12:54,068 --> 01:12:57,248
And is Grid that you were talking about

1919
01:12:57,248 --> 01:12:59,148
Grid is like a product that they announced

1920
01:12:59,148 --> 01:13:00,948
Kind of a developer tooling

1921
01:13:00,948 --> 01:13:03,988
My understanding is that LightSpark

1922
01:13:03,988 --> 01:13:05,968
has kind of the traditional LightSpark business

1923
01:13:05,968 --> 01:13:08,968
which is kind of, I think of it as integrations with banks.

1924
01:13:09,248 --> 01:13:13,948
And then there's Spark, which is kind of like the indie bottoms-up developer approach

1925
01:13:13,948 --> 01:13:16,348
or the hope to sort of instigate that ecosystem.

1926
01:13:16,568 --> 01:13:17,848
Is Grid part of the approach?

1927
01:13:17,848 --> 01:13:18,448
More of the former.

1928
01:13:18,928 --> 01:13:21,608
Is it from LightSpark or is it from a third-party company?

1929
01:13:21,608 --> 01:13:22,348
No, it's from LightSpark.

1930
01:13:22,508 --> 01:13:36,732
And so the key my takeaway is those bank integrations are very valuable because like again if you want to access PIX and UPI that really cool that now you can have normie real commerce between

1931
01:13:36,732 --> 01:13:40,913
Brazil and India. No one even knows what Bitcoin is or like, like it just fades to the background,

1932
01:13:40,913 --> 01:13:45,052
right? Um, which is always, that was kind of the mission of companies like Strike and a lot of

1933
01:13:45,052 --> 01:13:49,752
other companies in the early days, right? Um, what I think is unique about what they're focusing on

1934
01:13:49,752 --> 01:13:52,652
with Grid now is offering those tools up,

1935
01:13:52,692 --> 01:13:53,792
not as like a consumer product,

1936
01:13:53,913 --> 01:13:55,992
but as API, like really simple commands

1937
01:13:55,992 --> 01:13:58,012
for like send, receive money.

1938
01:13:59,292 --> 01:14:01,752
So a developer could now go in there and build,

1939
01:14:01,893 --> 01:14:02,873
I don't know what kind of app,

1940
01:14:02,913 --> 01:14:04,413
but like some cool app that takes advantage

1941
01:14:04,413 --> 01:14:05,952
of three real-time payment networks,

1942
01:14:06,092 --> 01:14:07,732
two of which are proprietary, one of which is good.

1943
01:14:08,652 --> 01:14:12,773
So I came away like more bullish and encouraged

1944
01:14:12,773 --> 01:14:14,413
on the whole direction of the company,

1945
01:14:14,792 --> 01:14:17,413
but also sharing in some of that exasperation of like,

1946
01:14:17,452 --> 01:14:19,333
are we going to have to go through one more corp chain,

1947
01:14:19,333 --> 01:14:21,572
shitcoin fest before we get to the promised land.

1948
01:14:22,112 --> 01:14:23,352
But isn't it going to be like,

1949
01:14:23,512 --> 01:14:25,572
like stables could run on that

1950
01:14:25,572 --> 01:14:26,773
and that feels like the kind of thing

1951
01:14:26,773 --> 01:14:28,092
that you could actually build momentum.

1952
01:14:28,333 --> 01:14:28,612
Totally.

1953
01:14:29,132 --> 01:14:31,612
And I think that's David's whole point too,

1954
01:14:31,672 --> 01:14:32,913
which I totally agree with is he's like,

1955
01:14:32,992 --> 01:14:34,572
this other corp chain stuff is not going to work

1956
01:14:34,572 --> 01:14:36,052
because you're not going to be able

1957
01:14:36,052 --> 01:14:37,292
to interconnect all the corp chains.

1958
01:14:37,413 --> 01:14:39,373
Now, how long does it take everyone to realize that?

1959
01:14:39,433 --> 01:14:41,572
How much greed do the companies doing this

1960
01:14:41,572 --> 01:14:43,712
have to go through first before they accept that reality?

1961
01:14:44,072 --> 01:14:44,813
But in the meantime,

1962
01:14:45,032 --> 01:14:47,773
and I think he's a very reasonable guy in all this

1963
01:14:47,773 --> 01:14:48,433
where he's like, look,

1964
01:14:48,433 --> 01:14:52,273
we have to deliver a better real-time payment experience

1965
01:14:52,273 --> 01:14:53,792
or we don't deserve to win.

1966
01:14:54,413 --> 01:14:55,992
But let's talk about that.

1967
01:14:56,992 --> 01:14:58,352
How do they practically do that?

1968
01:14:58,612 --> 01:15:03,852
So let's say there's some dollar on Spark

1969
01:15:03,852 --> 01:15:08,452
and then you want to pay someone who has a wallet

1970
01:15:08,452 --> 01:15:12,732
that has Tether on Tron or USDC on base or what have you.

1971
01:15:14,893 --> 01:15:18,192
How does Spark, what's the solution to that?

1972
01:15:18,192 --> 01:15:19,532
I mean, we talked about the solution before,

1973
01:15:19,652 --> 01:15:20,652
so I sort of know the answer,

1974
01:15:20,732 --> 01:15:24,333
but what's the solution that compared to

1975
01:15:24,333 --> 01:15:26,532
if Spark didn't exist?

1976
01:15:27,273 --> 01:15:29,852
How does the open network help this problem?

1977
01:15:29,952 --> 01:15:31,732
So one thing, I don't actually know the answer to that

1978
01:15:31,732 --> 01:15:32,813
because I don't think that was the focus.

1979
01:15:32,893 --> 01:15:33,852
I think the focus, frankly,

1980
01:15:34,212 --> 01:15:37,592
so I think that's almost like a separate set of product lines,

1981
01:15:37,672 --> 01:15:38,652
like to your point, more bottom up.

1982
01:15:39,032 --> 01:15:40,632
I think the focus was much more on like

1983
01:15:40,632 --> 01:15:42,692
what I saw the original strike model apps,

1984
01:15:42,833 --> 01:15:43,893
which like no stable coins,

1985
01:15:43,933 --> 01:15:46,132
it's just like we're bridging between payment networks

1986
01:15:46,132 --> 01:15:46,972
and Bitcoin and Lightning

1987
01:15:46,972 --> 01:15:49,052
because we can have each institution

1988
01:15:49,052 --> 01:15:50,572
running a Lighting Node to run it for them,

1989
01:15:50,773 --> 01:15:51,952
we can do the real-time settlement.

1990
01:15:52,393 --> 01:15:53,672
I think the difference is now

1991
01:15:53,672 --> 01:15:54,712
they're plugging into

1992
01:15:54,712 --> 01:15:58,032
the real-time proprietary networks

1993
01:15:58,032 --> 01:15:58,752
within these countries

1994
01:15:58,752 --> 01:16:00,172
and offering that as developers' API.

1995
01:16:00,313 --> 01:16:01,373
So we don't even need stable coins.

1996
01:16:02,072 --> 01:16:02,433
Exactly.

1997
01:16:02,552 --> 01:16:03,212
You don't even need stable coins.

1998
01:16:03,333 --> 01:16:04,132
You're just bridging.

1999
01:16:04,152 --> 01:16:05,072
That I understand.

2000
01:16:05,433 --> 01:16:06,393
And I do think that's slick.

2001
01:16:06,512 --> 01:16:07,273
I thought it was slick.

2002
01:16:07,873 --> 01:16:08,813
One strike said that, yeah.

2003
01:16:08,813 --> 01:16:11,052
I literally used it in Ghana

2004
01:16:11,052 --> 01:16:11,893
at a restaurant.

2005
01:16:12,512 --> 01:16:13,632
I forget if I've mentioned that

2006
01:16:13,632 --> 01:16:14,212
on the show before,

2007
01:16:14,292 --> 01:16:15,313
but I think I've told you guys.

2008
01:16:15,313 --> 01:16:17,052
paid a bill

2009
01:16:17,052 --> 01:16:19,592
and I used the strike app

2010
01:16:19,592 --> 01:16:21,433
so it's like dollars

2011
01:16:21,433 --> 01:16:23,313
from a US bank in my strike app

2012
01:16:23,313 --> 01:16:25,472
and I just punched in

2013
01:16:25,472 --> 01:16:27,212
the mobile phone number of this

2014
01:16:27,212 --> 01:16:28,692
restaurant in Ghana

2015
01:16:28,692 --> 01:16:30,773
and they ended up receiving

2016
01:16:30,773 --> 01:16:31,972
mobile money

2017
01:16:31,972 --> 01:16:34,512
through that right and so

2018
01:16:34,512 --> 01:16:37,632
I didn't have to understand that system

2019
01:16:37,632 --> 01:16:39,472
other than typing in a phone number

2020
01:16:39,472 --> 01:16:41,373
and they received

2021
01:16:41,373 --> 01:16:43,112
what they normally expect

2022
01:16:43,112 --> 01:16:47,632
and in between was the lightning network and bitcoin yeah so that that's my understanding

2023
01:16:47,632 --> 01:16:52,592
what it is with the added advantage of more connectivity with like more like regulated

2024
01:16:52,592 --> 01:16:57,813
financial institutions plugging into this offering more off ramps on and off ramps and offering it

2025
01:16:57,813 --> 01:17:02,212
up more as a developer focused api versus a consumer app so honestly i'm more bullish on

2026
01:17:02,212 --> 01:17:06,632
that than a lot of the stable but i just like i never understood like yeah i like this like

2027
01:17:06,632 --> 01:17:10,813
and again it's almost like i almost view there's like two different camps and i would encourage

2028
01:17:10,813 --> 01:17:13,873
the Bitcoiners just to remember, it's like, if you really want to go cypherpunk and unplug,

2029
01:17:14,292 --> 01:17:17,032
that's its own thing. And it's awesome. And it's beautiful. And I really hope we get the whole

2030
01:17:17,032 --> 01:17:22,492
world there. But then there's this other thing of just using Bitcoin as the internet to bridge

2031
01:17:22,492 --> 01:17:30,012
existing commerce intranets and build one giant financial open network. And again, as long as,

2032
01:17:30,012 --> 01:17:34,352
you know, it's backwards compatible with Bitcoin and lightning, then great. You know, when people,

2033
01:17:34,952 --> 01:17:38,692
you know, kind of like with the gold coin, like once they realize, oh, now there's all this other

2034
01:17:38,692 --> 01:17:41,333
superpowers I get with my coin, there should always be a route off.

2035
01:17:41,792 --> 01:17:42,632
And, you know, hopefully that's...

2036
01:17:42,632 --> 01:17:44,893
AOL did a lot for the growth of the internet.

2037
01:17:45,212 --> 01:17:45,512
Exactly.

2038
01:17:46,152 --> 01:17:51,112
One thing I haven't studied, so I've studied Spark a lot from the Bitcoin payment side,

2039
01:17:51,373 --> 01:17:53,592
know it well, but not the tokens.

2040
01:17:54,212 --> 01:17:55,873
I don't know as much about the tokens, to be honest.

2041
01:17:56,072 --> 01:17:58,212
Well, then we'll do some homework.

2042
01:17:58,452 --> 01:18:05,152
And I'd like to understand the relationship between tokens being issued on Spark and its

2043
01:18:05,152 --> 01:18:07,072
relationship back to the Bitcoin network.

2044
01:18:07,492 --> 01:18:08,012
That's a great question.

2045
01:18:08,012 --> 01:18:09,433
To be honest, I'm wayless.

2046
01:18:09,592 --> 01:18:11,632
I like this kind of old school,

2047
01:18:11,752 --> 01:18:13,192
just to bridge the payment networks

2048
01:18:13,192 --> 01:18:14,773
way more than I like all the token crap.

2049
01:18:15,273 --> 01:18:17,052
I think the token stuff is harder

2050
01:18:17,052 --> 01:18:19,572
to create the same incentives

2051
01:18:19,572 --> 01:18:21,992
when you run an L1 that is your own free money

2052
01:18:21,992 --> 01:18:24,172
because I think a lot of what works for tokens

2053
01:18:24,172 --> 01:18:27,852
to instigate these ecosystems of token creators

2054
01:18:27,852 --> 01:18:31,452
is to give L1 bonuses to them

2055
01:18:31,452 --> 01:18:32,913
for doing it on your chain.

2056
01:18:33,552 --> 01:18:35,273
Those kinds of things won't be possible.

2057
01:18:35,393 --> 01:18:35,913
One of the things I'll say

2058
01:18:35,913 --> 01:18:37,333
that was sort of an impression of mine,

2059
01:18:37,333 --> 01:18:39,492
and this did not come from the Lightspark team so much,

2060
01:18:39,572 --> 01:18:41,992
more just like what I'm gathering from chatting with people,

2061
01:18:42,552 --> 01:18:48,092
is I think that they're making a big bet on,

2062
01:18:48,572 --> 01:18:51,413
in the long run, if you go sort of developer top first

2063
01:18:51,413 --> 01:18:52,433
with consumer applications,

2064
01:18:52,532 --> 01:18:53,552
that's how you become a giant company.

2065
01:18:53,692 --> 01:18:55,132
I like companies like Facebook and Google

2066
01:18:55,132 --> 01:18:57,632
are sort of consumer facing.

2067
01:18:58,132 --> 01:18:59,292
But that's like a huge bet.

2068
01:18:59,472 --> 01:19:00,512
It's extremely tricky.

2069
01:19:00,712 --> 01:19:02,672
Very few companies ever thread that needle.

2070
01:19:02,792 --> 01:19:03,632
It's a bold vision.

2071
01:19:04,232 --> 01:19:06,773
Whereas, honestly, in the short run,

2072
01:19:07,333 --> 01:19:10,672
where I think there's probably a lot more opportunity, and I'm shocked we haven't seen

2073
01:19:10,672 --> 01:19:14,652
more of this, not just from them, but from all the companies I work with, is just business-to-business

2074
01:19:14,652 --> 01:19:18,532
payments. To me, this just seems like there's a huge opportunity of like, okay, now that we have

2075
01:19:18,532 --> 01:19:23,132
Lightning working in, I'll never forget one example between one of my companies in Brazil

2076
01:19:23,132 --> 01:19:27,592
and in Nigeria. I mean, it was a very small example, and this should probably be done with

2077
01:19:27,592 --> 01:19:33,152
real enterprise sales teams and real, it's not like these are new concepts of how to do B2B payments,

2078
01:19:33,292 --> 01:19:37,072
but apparently there was a huge market that they helped open up, or a

2079
01:19:37,333 --> 01:19:41,273
relatively new market for like buying Nigerian wigs to ship to Brazil or something, which

2080
01:19:41,273 --> 01:19:42,052
was just like, what?

2081
01:19:45,452 --> 01:19:45,813
Okay.

2082
01:19:47,172 --> 01:19:50,992
But this is my, but my point is like for them, it makes a lot of sense because it's like,

2083
01:19:51,012 --> 01:19:53,612
it's not something like you're not trying to like focus on remittances, which are often

2084
01:19:53,612 --> 01:19:54,112
really small.

2085
01:19:54,292 --> 01:19:57,172
It's just like, there's like, okay, these guys ship products.

2086
01:19:57,172 --> 01:20:00,592
If you offer them a new customer, it's like, it's a no brainer.

2087
01:20:01,852 --> 01:20:05,692
Should we do a few rapid fires?

2088
01:20:06,373 --> 01:20:07,192
Well, let me start.

2089
01:20:07,292 --> 01:20:08,152
Do you want a Nigerian wig?

2090
01:20:08,893 --> 01:20:09,893
We're talking about actual wig.

2091
01:20:10,313 --> 01:20:10,592
I don't know.

2092
01:20:10,712 --> 01:20:12,532
I mean, like a hair.

2093
01:20:12,792 --> 01:20:13,172
Yeah, yeah.

2094
01:20:13,572 --> 01:20:13,972
Maybe.

2095
01:20:14,313 --> 01:20:17,172
Are you trying to suggest that I need a little extra hair back?

2096
01:20:17,492 --> 01:20:18,612
I'm not going to dress up as Max for Halloween.

2097
01:20:20,952 --> 01:20:22,212
Let's do a quick rapid fire.

2098
01:20:22,472 --> 01:20:27,852
So, like, rumors are sailors going on Joe Rogan or just went on Joe Rogan.

2099
01:20:28,592 --> 01:20:30,472
At least that's what I wrote on Twitter.

2100
01:20:30,472 --> 01:20:32,833
I think somebody saw, like, his plane in Austin or something.

2101
01:20:32,833 --> 01:20:39,612
so but regardless of whether that's true or not then some people replied saying like um oh you

2102
01:20:39,612 --> 01:20:45,273
know he's not the best spokesperson to go for bitcoin to go on joe rogan um i'm sure there's

2103
01:20:45,273 --> 01:20:50,132
others who would say he's the best spokesperson so i'm curious what are your thoughts on who would

2104
01:20:50,132 --> 01:20:56,933
be the best spokesperson for bitcoin to go on joe rogan andreas antonopoulos well he's already done

2105
01:20:56,933 --> 01:21:01,192
it he's already multiple times i was about to say the same thing i'm just kidding um by the way

2106
01:21:01,192 --> 01:21:04,773
Andreas still is underrated. Everyone should watch. Everyone should have their friends.

2107
01:21:05,052 --> 01:21:09,632
I found myself recently telling new kids working at this event, if you haven't watched all of

2108
01:21:09,632 --> 01:21:13,672
Andreas' talks, stay there. My favorite, the one you had to start with

2109
01:21:13,672 --> 01:21:15,952
is him talking in front of an empty room.

2110
01:21:18,752 --> 01:21:21,572
Who else? I saw people suggest

2111
01:21:21,572 --> 01:21:23,792
Jack Mallers, Jack Dorsey.

2112
01:21:25,212 --> 01:21:29,752
I don't really know what the right answer is because at the launch

2113
01:21:29,752 --> 01:21:35,212
event we had at Presidia Bitcoin, we had Michael Saylor here, Jack Dorsey here, and Greg Maxwell

2114
01:21:35,212 --> 01:21:44,552
here. Three very important figures in the history of Bitcoin and Bitcoin today. Three very different

2115
01:21:44,552 --> 01:21:53,413
people. And obviously the profile of Saylor and Jack are much greater than Greg Maxwell.

2116
01:21:53,413 --> 01:21:56,132
but Greg Maxwell arguably

2117
01:21:56,132 --> 01:22:01,333
had a similar impact on the history of Bitcoin

2118
01:22:01,333 --> 01:22:04,092
but they're all three very different

2119
01:22:04,092 --> 01:22:06,132
they care about different things

2120
01:22:06,132 --> 01:22:07,912
they know about different things with Bitcoin

2121
01:22:07,912 --> 01:22:11,192
they speak about Bitcoin very differently

2122
01:22:11,192 --> 01:22:15,393
but I see value in all three of their views

2123
01:22:15,393 --> 01:22:18,692
and then I think each would criticize

2124
01:22:18,692 --> 01:22:20,933
each other's views maybe a little bit

2125
01:22:20,933 --> 01:22:23,532
so I don't know who the right

2126
01:22:23,532 --> 01:22:25,232
it's hard to have

2127
01:22:25,232 --> 01:22:27,612
there's not one person

2128
01:22:27,612 --> 01:22:29,512
right I mean there's no leader of Bitcoin

2129
01:22:29,512 --> 01:22:31,393
and there's really no one who can

2130
01:22:31,393 --> 01:22:33,452
I think adequately

2131
01:22:33,452 --> 01:22:35,352
cover all

2132
01:22:35,352 --> 01:22:37,052
the bases of Bitcoin

2133
01:22:37,052 --> 01:22:39,572
okay so I think this is really interesting

2134
01:22:39,572 --> 01:22:40,813
I think we should play this game

2135
01:22:40,813 --> 01:22:43,273
so I think Saylor is a great one

2136
01:22:43,273 --> 01:22:45,172
for sure from one perspective

2137
01:22:45,172 --> 01:22:47,072
and I'm glad he went on there it's awesome

2138
01:22:47,072 --> 01:22:49,692
Jack Dorsey is a great one for sure

2139
01:22:49,692 --> 01:22:50,672
from another perspective.

2140
01:22:50,852 --> 01:22:51,552
And I think Jack's been on there

2141
01:22:51,552 --> 01:22:52,012
multiple times.

2142
01:22:52,152 --> 01:22:53,273
So like, whatever.

2143
01:22:53,412 --> 01:22:53,912
And Andreas.

2144
01:22:54,492 --> 01:22:56,393
But like, putting like the big,

2145
01:22:56,433 --> 01:22:57,572
like obvious ones aside,

2146
01:22:58,032 --> 01:22:59,672
if you each had to come up with one,

2147
01:23:00,112 --> 01:23:01,433
maybe a little bit less expected,

2148
01:23:01,952 --> 01:23:02,712
one or two, whatever,

2149
01:23:03,313 --> 01:23:04,433
who would you pick to go on road?

2150
01:23:04,813 --> 01:23:06,072
Besides Jack and Mike.

2151
01:23:06,092 --> 01:23:06,912
Get Steve on there.

2152
01:23:07,072 --> 01:23:08,373
Oh, good answer.

2153
01:23:09,032 --> 01:23:10,492
A little buttering up, I see.

2154
01:23:12,833 --> 01:23:13,873
I actually think,

2155
01:23:13,952 --> 01:23:15,313
I think Greg Maxwell

2156
01:23:15,313 --> 01:23:16,473
would be really interesting.

2157
01:23:16,473 --> 01:23:17,992
I mean, he's extremely intelligent.

2158
01:23:17,992 --> 01:23:24,232
he speaks or he certainly writes very well and i believe he would speak just as well as his writing

2159
01:23:24,232 --> 01:23:33,032
um and it would just be such a good contrast to sailor so i'd love to see both right and have the

2160
01:23:33,032 --> 01:23:39,393
audience see three hours of sailor and three hours of greg maxwell on bitcoin and if you soak in both

2161
01:23:39,393 --> 01:23:44,592
of those i think that would be like very complimentary between the two my understanding

2162
01:23:44,592 --> 01:23:46,792
though, actually I think Greg Maxwell

2163
01:23:46,792 --> 01:23:48,452
would be a great candidate. My

2164
01:23:48,452 --> 01:23:50,732
understanding is Rogan is mostly

2165
01:23:50,732 --> 01:23:52,512
not interested in money or

2166
01:23:52,512 --> 01:23:54,512
talking about money. He doesn't want to do a show about

2167
01:23:54,512 --> 01:23:56,732
money. So it's almost like

2168
01:23:56,732 --> 01:23:58,373
you want to talk, you want to come with

2169
01:23:58,373 --> 01:24:00,473
a little bit less of an agenda of like,

2170
01:24:00,612 --> 01:24:02,212
hey, we're going to go talk about Bitcoin.

2171
01:24:02,632 --> 01:24:04,512
And it's more like, here's an interesting person. I think

2172
01:24:04,512 --> 01:24:06,632
Greg, I don't know if you've been to his website lately

2173
01:24:06,632 --> 01:24:08,612
or followed his stuff, but he does lots of

2174
01:24:08,612 --> 01:24:10,172
cool astro

2175
01:24:10,172 --> 01:24:12,652
stuff, like space exploration from

2176
01:24:12,652 --> 01:24:14,333
the telescope

2177
01:24:14,333 --> 01:24:15,512
telescopes and stuff.

2178
01:24:16,412 --> 01:24:18,373
I almost wonder if there's just like,

2179
01:24:18,512 --> 01:24:21,452
here's kind of a cool, crazy hacker,

2180
01:24:22,732 --> 01:24:24,773
you know, science-oriented guy,

2181
01:24:24,933 --> 01:24:27,393
and he's a little bit more, you know,

2182
01:24:27,552 --> 01:24:29,172
money comes up and Bitcoin comes up,

2183
01:24:29,212 --> 01:24:30,492
but it's not about that.

2184
01:24:30,572 --> 01:24:32,393
Whereas I feel like you can't have Sailor

2185
01:24:32,393 --> 01:24:34,532
without it being just about, you know,

2186
01:24:34,532 --> 01:24:36,072
store value, you know.

2187
01:24:36,072 --> 01:24:39,352
Well, and Greg also, if my memory serves me,

2188
01:24:39,393 --> 01:24:40,933
was like a major contributor to Wikipedia,

2189
01:24:41,273 --> 01:24:42,652
which that would probably also interest you.

2190
01:24:42,652 --> 01:24:46,973
So I've got two answers that come to mind immediately.

2191
01:24:47,712 --> 01:24:51,393
One answer, kind of I would say in a similar vein, is Ben Ark.

2192
01:24:52,132 --> 01:24:55,172
And the reason I say Ben Ark is I think Ben is,

2193
01:24:55,292 --> 01:24:58,112
I think Joe likes people that are extremely intelligent

2194
01:24:58,112 --> 01:24:59,152
and a little bit out there.

2195
01:24:59,512 --> 01:25:01,252
And Ben fits both of those categories.

2196
01:25:01,873 --> 01:25:07,552
And Ben is nice because he has a strong left libertarian view,

2197
01:25:07,692 --> 01:25:09,492
which is extremely unheard of.

2198
01:25:09,552 --> 01:25:11,273
Even though Joe may not agree with all of his stuff,

2199
01:25:11,273 --> 01:25:16,273
I think he would be fascinated by Ben's incredibly erudite discussions

2200
01:25:16,813 --> 01:25:20,112
of the history of anarchism, left libertarianism.

2201
01:25:20,232 --> 01:25:21,952
I don't even know if Joe knows those things exist,

2202
01:25:22,052 --> 01:25:22,933
but he would be interested in them.

2203
01:25:23,313 --> 01:25:26,092
And the fact that Ben helped with Fiat Joff create Nostr,

2204
01:25:26,333 --> 01:25:29,012
which I actually think in a lot of ways Nostr is more interesting to Joe

2205
01:25:29,012 --> 01:25:30,352
than Bitcoin is.

2206
01:25:30,452 --> 01:25:31,592
And so I think Ben would be really,

2207
01:25:31,852 --> 01:25:33,473
is kind of one of the co-founders of Nostr,

2208
01:25:33,893 --> 01:25:35,352
but can also speak on the Bitcoin stuff,

2209
01:25:35,433 --> 01:25:36,833
calls himself BTC socialist.

2210
01:25:37,232 --> 01:25:38,433
I think he would like that kind of thing.

2211
01:25:38,912 --> 01:25:40,273
The other one I would throw out, this is...

2212
01:25:41,273 --> 01:25:43,512
I'm not sure who exactly.

2213
01:25:43,712 --> 01:25:45,672
I'm going to throw one person out as a placeholder.

2214
01:25:46,192 --> 01:25:49,373
But it's my homie, Andrew Myers from Satoshi Energy.

2215
01:25:50,052 --> 01:25:53,833
Andrew, first of all, is just also a wild man, which I love.

2216
01:25:54,273 --> 01:25:58,692
He could talk to Joe about interdimensional travel and all that stuff, which I know Joe loves.

2217
01:25:59,172 --> 01:26:00,672
And I think you need someone like that.

2218
01:26:01,092 --> 01:26:03,092
But also, he has the Bitcoin.

2219
01:26:03,252 --> 01:26:07,933
He's the one that really got me energy pill that Bitcoin is just energy money.

2220
01:26:07,933 --> 01:26:11,833
And I think being in Texas, talking about energy, I think that would be really interesting.

2221
01:26:11,833 --> 01:26:15,852
I think, yeah, more like that breadth of energy focus and Bitcoin is just like part of it.

2222
01:26:16,072 --> 01:26:17,352
That kind of, that resonates with me.

2223
01:26:17,373 --> 01:26:18,592
I think Lynn Alden would be.

2224
01:26:18,773 --> 01:26:19,172
Oh, yeah.

2225
01:26:19,532 --> 01:26:22,712
Everyone would be confident she'd kill it.

2226
01:26:22,873 --> 01:26:23,592
Everyone likes Lynn.

2227
01:26:23,873 --> 01:26:24,072
Yeah.

2228
01:26:24,452 --> 01:26:32,933
And she also can cover a lot of aspects of, I mean, she can certainly put her sailor hat on and speak to that narrative.

2229
01:26:33,052 --> 01:26:33,232
Yeah.

2230
01:26:33,572 --> 01:26:34,433
Very, very well.

2231
01:26:35,212 --> 01:26:37,012
She can also put her on her sailor hat.

2232
01:26:37,012 --> 01:26:39,652
She can say all the high seas of Bitcoin and Nostra.

2233
01:26:40,732 --> 01:26:44,292
Yeah, and she can speak to Nostra and payments and cypherpunk,

2234
01:26:44,452 --> 01:26:45,852
and she can cover a lot of angles.

2235
01:26:46,152 --> 01:26:47,852
So shout out to Lynn.

2236
01:26:48,192 --> 01:26:49,712
DK, you got to give us another one.

2237
01:26:49,792 --> 01:26:50,452
I gave you one.

2238
01:26:50,532 --> 01:26:50,912
Oh, man.

2239
01:26:51,112 --> 01:26:52,552
My other one's a student next.

2240
01:26:53,333 --> 01:26:54,092
Get him up there.

2241
01:26:54,172 --> 01:26:55,072
He's a little butter.

2242
01:26:55,172 --> 01:26:55,852
I said rapid fire.

2243
01:26:56,052 --> 01:27:01,132
So like, okay, we saw Elon tweet about Bitcoin,

2244
01:27:01,212 --> 01:27:02,792
I think in the first time in like years.

2245
01:27:03,052 --> 01:27:03,212
Yeah.

2246
01:27:03,492 --> 01:27:04,912
So, yeah.

2247
01:27:04,912 --> 01:27:07,393
I don't know if I'm even doing it right.

2248
01:27:07,512 --> 01:27:08,152
It's something like that.

2249
01:27:08,212 --> 01:27:08,792
It's overhanded.

2250
01:27:09,112 --> 01:27:11,052
So what does that mean?

2251
01:27:12,252 --> 01:27:13,492
And he's tweeting about energy too.

2252
01:27:14,752 --> 01:27:15,532
I mean, it's big.

2253
01:27:15,632 --> 01:27:17,232
I mean, I don't remember the exact tweet,

2254
01:27:17,352 --> 01:27:18,893
but basically Elon saying like,

2255
01:27:19,152 --> 01:27:20,652
Bitcoin can't be printed.

2256
01:27:20,852 --> 01:27:21,612
It's based on energy,

2257
01:27:21,712 --> 01:27:22,352
which is another reason.

2258
01:27:22,912 --> 01:27:23,813
I know after this, we need to chat

2259
01:27:23,813 --> 01:27:25,732
and to make sure Fionn Fusk joins us

2260
01:27:25,732 --> 01:27:26,352
for the Type 1 Summit.

2261
01:27:26,632 --> 01:27:27,692
But I think...

2262
01:27:27,692 --> 01:27:29,172
In case Elon is listening,

2263
01:27:29,652 --> 01:27:32,333
we invite you to the Type 1 Energy Summit.

2264
01:27:32,572 --> 01:27:33,192
We'd love to have you.

2265
01:27:33,232 --> 01:27:33,973
We'd love to have you.

2266
01:27:33,973 --> 01:27:38,933
And the whole plan of the summit is how do we go from this sorry state of civilization

2267
01:27:38,933 --> 01:27:42,933
to harnessing all of the sun's energy touching our planet and then get to type two next.

2268
01:27:43,072 --> 01:27:44,973
So we'll, you know, maybe I put that one too.

2269
01:27:45,352 --> 01:27:49,313
But I think one thing that I've noticed for sure is anyone who's extremely intelligent

2270
01:27:49,313 --> 01:27:53,992
who understands physics at all, this is based in energy always works.

2271
01:27:54,072 --> 01:27:57,232
And I think it's no coincidence that's the thing that Elon sticks with.

2272
01:27:57,352 --> 01:28:01,412
So I think the other positive thing is I haven't seen him tweet about Doge in a while,

2273
01:28:01,412 --> 01:28:04,873
maybe after the not so successful Doge run,

2274
01:28:04,973 --> 01:28:05,632
which is a good thing.

2275
01:28:05,833 --> 01:28:06,973
And yeah, I mean, look,

2276
01:28:07,452 --> 01:28:08,752
if Elon embraces Bitcoin,

2277
01:28:08,852 --> 01:28:11,313
if we get lightning payments or whatever one day in X,

2278
01:28:11,672 --> 01:28:13,072
that would just, that would be a game changer.

2279
01:28:14,532 --> 01:28:16,032
Yeah, I'm a fan.

2280
01:28:17,393 --> 01:28:19,732
And well, we're kind of running up on time.

2281
01:28:19,912 --> 01:28:20,412
I didn't see the time.

2282
01:28:20,612 --> 01:28:21,373
I've been like kind of just.

2283
01:28:21,773 --> 01:28:22,552
Oh, I've got to hear it.

2284
01:28:22,632 --> 01:28:23,313
It's 1.30.

2285
01:28:23,473 --> 01:28:24,433
Living in the eternal now.

2286
01:28:24,452 --> 01:28:25,512
You can look at his watch too.

2287
01:28:25,672 --> 01:28:26,732
That's, oh, wow.

2288
01:28:26,912 --> 01:28:27,852
Wait, I see the time.

2289
01:28:27,992 --> 01:28:28,352
Good hack.

2290
01:28:28,352 --> 01:28:32,333
so we probably don't have enough time to get into the

2291
01:28:32,333 --> 01:28:35,973
how to fund open source Bitcoin development topic

2292
01:28:35,973 --> 01:28:38,512
but at least it came up again

2293
01:28:38,512 --> 01:28:43,412
Tether announced donating $250,000 to OpenSats

2294
01:28:43,412 --> 01:28:47,552
and then Jack Dorsey replied

2295
01:28:47,552 --> 01:28:49,732
saying like, you know, only $250,000

2296
01:28:49,732 --> 01:28:52,652
and he's funded 10s and 10s

2297
01:28:52,652 --> 01:28:54,973
10s of millions of dollars

2298
01:28:54,973 --> 01:29:00,352
So on one hand, thank you to anyone donating to Bitcoin.

2299
01:29:00,612 --> 01:29:11,912
On the other hand, compared to Tether's profits, revenue, treasury, whatever metric you want to use, it would be kind of like us donating a dime or a dollar or something.

2300
01:29:12,632 --> 01:29:18,072
But it raises the question of expectations and obligations.

2301
01:29:18,393 --> 01:29:20,732
What should Tether's obligation be?

2302
01:29:20,732 --> 01:29:25,273
What should other companies in Bitcoin space, what's their obligation?

2303
01:29:25,412 --> 01:29:26,893
Are they obligated to fund it?

2304
01:29:26,973 --> 01:29:28,572
Is it in their strategic interest?

2305
01:29:29,873 --> 01:29:33,552
Either way, what should be the expectation?

2306
01:29:33,893 --> 01:29:44,393
If it's in their strategic interest, how do you go about thinking about what percentage of our revenue, profits, or any other business metric you want to pick should go towards open source funding?

2307
01:29:44,393 --> 01:29:49,393
I think, to be fair, I think the whole ethos of Bitcoin is volunteerism.

2308
01:29:49,393 --> 01:29:52,933
volunteerism, like no one should or have to do anything. Like, I don't think that's a good

2309
01:29:52,933 --> 01:29:58,012
message to ever send. On the other hand, you know, I think from Tether's perspective, it's kind of

2310
01:29:58,012 --> 01:30:03,652
like, guys, your, your profit numbers are public. And so in some ways opt optically, which, and look,

2311
01:30:03,732 --> 01:30:07,032
I mean, it's great. Anyone that donates, like that's awesome. No one has to do that. And that's

2312
01:30:07,032 --> 01:30:10,092
awesome. But it's kind of like, it would have almost been better to donate nothing. And now

2313
01:30:10,092 --> 01:30:12,813
it's just kind of like people are laughing because it's like, dude, and it's like, I mean,

2314
01:30:12,813 --> 01:30:24,833
And the way I think about it is it's awesome that a company like Bitwise committed to giving 10% of their profits to Bitcoin open source.

2315
01:30:25,132 --> 01:30:29,893
If Tether did what Bitwise did, bro, I mean, they would make Jack look small.

2316
01:30:30,252 --> 01:30:32,092
But they don't need the marketing value.

2317
01:30:32,373 --> 01:30:33,492
They don't need the marketing value.

2318
01:30:33,632 --> 01:30:40,052
But it's like, I mean, but I mean, my understanding is a lot of these guys at the top, it's just interesting because it's like, and look, I mean, I haven't donated to it.

2319
01:30:40,052 --> 01:30:44,313
so I'm not going to whatever, let he who is without whatever cast the first stone.

2320
01:30:44,833 --> 01:30:46,712
They're probably doing a lot of other stuff, which is awesome.

2321
01:30:46,912 --> 01:30:48,393
And like, in fact, I know they are, which is great.

2322
01:30:48,532 --> 01:30:51,512
So I mean, I know Tether has generally been a pretty support member of the community.

2323
01:30:52,172 --> 01:30:57,992
But on the other hand, you know, I mean, if the people at the top of these organizations,

2324
01:30:58,092 --> 01:31:00,393
it's just kind of crazy because it does seem like everyone's like,

2325
01:31:00,393 --> 01:31:02,433
oh, the Bitcoiners, we all want to like support this stuff.

2326
01:31:02,452 --> 01:31:04,112
And it does seem like a lot of Bitcoiners are pretty tight.

2327
01:31:05,032 --> 01:31:06,012
There are exceptions.

2328
01:31:06,552 --> 01:31:09,072
And Jack is certainly one, the guys that funded our office.

2329
01:31:09,072 --> 01:31:12,273
Like there are people who've really put their money where their mouth is and it's awesome to see.

2330
01:31:12,393 --> 01:31:13,273
But it's a small percentage.

2331
01:31:13,352 --> 01:31:15,212
But it's a small percentage and you kind of get this.

2332
01:31:15,212 --> 01:31:17,692
Those who are generous are extremely generous, but it's small.

2333
01:31:17,952 --> 01:31:18,632
But it's super small.

2334
01:31:19,012 --> 01:31:21,212
And so, and yeah, maybe that's incumbent on all of us.

2335
01:31:21,252 --> 01:31:23,252
Like maybe we should all be giving more and probably we should.

2336
01:31:23,632 --> 01:31:29,092
Also, I mean, we're talking about Tether because they announced it and they got poked at a little bit.

2337
01:31:29,412 --> 01:31:32,492
But there's so many other companies that have donated nothing.

2338
01:31:32,933 --> 01:31:33,212
Agreed.

2339
01:31:33,873 --> 01:31:35,592
You know, so I can argue it either way with Tether.

2340
01:31:35,592 --> 01:31:37,752
They're like, number one, thank you.

2341
01:31:37,952 --> 01:31:41,552
And hopefully it's the start of the beginning of a lot more.

2342
01:31:41,552 --> 01:31:47,732
And I did hear from a source that that's the amount OpenSat suggested.

2343
01:31:48,292 --> 01:31:54,473
So hopefully it's a start and maybe they can fund multiple funding organizations.

2344
01:31:55,492 --> 01:31:58,313
We don't know what all they donate elsewhere, so I think that's important.

2345
01:31:58,792 --> 01:32:03,672
I'd love to see Tether start their version of Spiral.

2346
01:32:03,992 --> 01:32:04,192
Amazing.

2347
01:32:04,192 --> 01:32:07,933
start their own organization within Tether,

2348
01:32:09,112 --> 01:32:11,452
hire someone to lead it,

2349
01:32:11,732 --> 01:32:12,792
and then give them a budget.

2350
01:32:13,952 --> 01:32:16,192
I don't think Mad Max wants to do that.

2351
01:32:16,833 --> 01:32:17,552
He's pointing at you.

2352
01:32:17,612 --> 01:32:18,152
You're pointing at me.

2353
01:32:20,393 --> 01:32:21,352
I'm in my garden.

2354
01:32:21,352 --> 01:32:24,612
And then basically like Spiral,

2355
01:32:24,752 --> 01:32:26,492
but their own version of Spiral.

2356
01:32:27,273 --> 01:32:30,393
When I created Spiral,

2357
01:32:30,393 --> 01:32:42,612
It was like I looked at Chaincode and Brink and MIT DCI and all these different orgs and just sort of copied aspects of each, but then also added my own sort of flavor.

2358
01:32:42,933 --> 01:32:45,572
And that's what I'd encourage anyone else to do as well.

2359
01:32:46,112 --> 01:32:47,473
So I think that would be really interesting.

2360
01:32:47,672 --> 01:32:52,292
But yeah, hopefully it's just the start of much, much bigger stuff in the future.

2361
01:32:52,292 --> 01:32:55,732
and to all the other large companies

2362
01:32:55,732 --> 01:32:58,313
that have a lot of profits,

2363
01:32:58,612 --> 01:33:01,152
I think they could do more as well.

2364
01:33:01,412 --> 01:33:03,072
Is there some sort of curated list

2365
01:33:03,072 --> 01:33:05,933
where we can see all of the orgs,

2366
01:33:06,032 --> 01:33:09,112
like maybe in OpenSats and a chain code in Brink,

2367
01:33:09,412 --> 01:33:11,112
where you can see what they are

2368
01:33:11,112 --> 01:33:13,572
and maybe do they even have public addresses

2369
01:33:13,572 --> 01:33:15,212
where you could make donations if you wanted?

2370
01:33:15,692 --> 01:33:17,412
If you wanted to donate a dollar, you mentioned that.

2371
01:33:17,452 --> 01:33:18,912
Do you have to talk to somebody or can you just do it?

2372
01:33:19,433 --> 01:33:21,813
No, I know like Brink and HRF, you can just do it.

2373
01:33:22,292 --> 01:33:25,492
I'm sure all of them you can, but on their websites.

2374
01:33:27,773 --> 01:33:29,712
It's a short list, so I can easily name them.

2375
01:33:29,893 --> 01:33:37,012
Brink, Vindium, HRF, OpenSats, Localhost as well.

2376
01:33:37,773 --> 01:33:38,532
I actually don't know.

2377
01:33:38,792 --> 01:33:40,592
Localhost started a year ago,

2378
01:33:41,112 --> 01:33:44,352
funded initially by Wences and Mark,

2379
01:33:44,572 --> 01:33:46,473
the same two that funded Bitcoin.

2380
01:33:47,433 --> 01:33:50,813
But I believe they are seeking funding from others as well.

2381
01:33:50,813 --> 01:33:52,252
I don't know the status of that.

2382
01:33:52,292 --> 01:33:54,973
So I don't know if you go to the local host website,

2383
01:33:55,072 --> 01:33:57,833
can you pay a Bitcoin address?

2384
01:33:58,192 --> 01:33:59,352
I think that's their vision,

2385
01:33:59,592 --> 01:34:00,992
and maybe it might be their reality now.

2386
01:34:01,212 --> 01:34:02,032
And to be fair, again,

2387
01:34:02,052 --> 01:34:03,333
I think we shouldn't pick on Tether too much

2388
01:34:03,333 --> 01:34:04,852
because they have done a lot of other things,

2389
01:34:04,952 --> 01:34:06,452
and there's quite a lot of other organizations

2390
01:34:06,452 --> 01:34:07,833
which I'm guessing is Tether money

2391
01:34:07,833 --> 01:34:09,032
that they're not calling Tether money.

2392
01:34:09,212 --> 01:34:13,032
And so you should encourage them to continue building.

2393
01:34:13,512 --> 01:34:15,273
Don't shame people for small amounts.

2394
01:34:15,412 --> 01:34:15,973
Encourage it.

2395
01:34:15,992 --> 01:34:16,652
Yeah, encourage it.

2396
01:34:16,652 --> 01:34:17,373
Hey, guys, that's great.

2397
01:34:17,473 --> 01:34:18,052
We appreciate it.

2398
01:34:18,172 --> 01:34:19,072
You're probably doing a lot more,

2399
01:34:19,212 --> 01:34:21,152
and we hope you continue to do a lot more.

2400
01:34:21,152 --> 01:34:22,752
and like, hey, by the way, Bitwise does 10%.

2401
01:34:22,752 --> 01:34:25,132
That would be something really crazy to shoot for, right?

2402
01:34:26,012 --> 01:34:27,712
But I also think to be fair

2403
01:34:27,712 --> 01:34:29,652
to a lot of these donors and individuals too,

2404
01:34:29,692 --> 01:34:30,792
because I think about that sometimes

2405
01:34:30,792 --> 01:34:32,833
and it's like, you know, you always say,

2406
01:34:32,973 --> 01:34:35,032
oh, one day if I get super rich, I'll like give back

2407
01:34:35,032 --> 01:34:36,112
and then very few people ever do.

2408
01:34:36,492 --> 01:34:38,973
For whatever reason, there are certain people like Jack

2409
01:34:38,973 --> 01:34:40,572
who seem to retain their values.

2410
01:34:40,852 --> 01:34:41,773
Most people as they get rich

2411
01:34:41,773 --> 01:34:42,912
don't seem to retain their values.

2412
01:34:43,452 --> 01:34:45,652
Now, one thing though is that maybe they also,

2413
01:34:45,833 --> 01:34:46,373
they're busy people

2414
01:34:46,373 --> 01:34:47,433
and they don't have a lot of opportunity.

2415
01:34:47,512 --> 01:34:48,592
They don't know what's a good nonprofit.

2416
01:34:48,712 --> 01:34:49,473
They don't know what's useful.

2417
01:34:49,473 --> 01:34:54,692
and I think in the case of like Mark and Wintz is like they were extremely generous but someone

2418
01:34:54,692 --> 01:34:57,773
had to like come to them and be like hey here's a great idea and they're like yeah this is a great

2419
01:34:57,773 --> 01:35:03,252
idea and so I think um if anything you mentioned like a bunch of these organizations uh Bainty

2420
01:35:03,252 --> 01:35:07,012
Oum was uh Lucas from Lightning Labs he just had a vision he went out there and did it and he talked

2421
01:35:07,012 --> 01:35:10,712
to people like John Pfeffer and others and like there there were people who were very generous

2422
01:35:10,712 --> 01:35:15,792
but like the real scarce resource is never money the real scarce resource is doing the hard work

2423
01:35:15,792 --> 01:35:17,612
and the legwork, having a truly great idea,

2424
01:35:17,852 --> 01:35:18,632
that's fundable.

2425
01:35:19,032 --> 01:35:19,852
And so I think if anything,

2426
01:35:20,052 --> 01:35:21,912
maybe this is another call for more people.

2427
01:35:22,072 --> 01:35:23,352
If you have a beautiful vision

2428
01:35:23,352 --> 01:35:25,172
you want to see in the world, just do it.

2429
01:35:25,572 --> 01:35:27,052
And probably the money will come

2430
01:35:27,052 --> 01:35:28,313
if you do something good.

2431
01:35:28,692 --> 01:35:30,952
Yep. I mean, Presidio Bitcoin is literally that.

2432
01:35:31,032 --> 01:35:31,292
Exactly.

2433
01:35:31,292 --> 01:35:34,532
Because Wences and Mark approached me

2434
01:35:34,532 --> 01:35:37,072
and a few others wanting to create ChainCode West,

2435
01:35:37,292 --> 01:35:39,672
which ultimately became localhost.

2436
01:35:40,552 --> 01:35:43,112
But we also convinced them to do Presidio Bitcoin,

2437
01:35:43,433 --> 01:35:45,052
which is a very big initiative.

2438
01:35:45,792 --> 01:35:52,833
And, you know, it was like us and a few other people who created a vision and here we are.

2439
01:35:52,833 --> 01:35:53,132
Yeah.

2440
01:35:53,912 --> 01:35:56,132
So vision is more important than money.

2441
01:35:56,192 --> 01:35:56,792
The money will come.

2442
01:35:56,992 --> 01:36:15,192
But last thing on the funding, I think like there's a report last or about a year ago from Dan Oprey and one of his colleagues showing that they explored the funding of Bitcoin Core specifically and who donates.

2443
01:36:15,192 --> 01:36:27,132
And, you know, Jack just like dominates the funding picture, which like, you know, obviously credit to him for how generous he's been and also credit to him for how hands off he is.

2444
01:36:27,712 --> 01:36:39,072
There's certainly, you know, he's invested money or he's funded where he, you know, where he doesn't necessarily like the direction of some of the people doing certain things, but he's very hands off.

2445
01:36:40,412 --> 01:36:43,692
And so, but it's disproportionate, right?

2446
01:36:43,692 --> 01:36:47,592
It's unhealthy for Bitcoin to have one person be such a major donor.

2447
01:36:47,992 --> 01:37:00,893
So for other people, like whether it's individuals or companies that have big bags, it would be much healthier for Bitcoin if they were at least collectively matching what Jack is funding.

2448
01:37:00,992 --> 01:37:05,512
And also to be clear, like we don't know what people are doing anonymously as well.

2449
01:37:05,792 --> 01:37:08,952
And like, I mean, we probably do know for some of these organizations.

2450
01:37:08,952 --> 01:37:16,152
We have a pretty good, I mean, there's not like some kid and $50 million Bitcoin dev fund that we don't know.

2451
01:37:16,232 --> 01:37:16,532
It's secret.

2452
01:37:16,833 --> 01:37:20,313
Well, I mean, and I was going to say, I mean, look, I mean, like, it's awesome to get back to Bitcoin.

2453
01:37:20,412 --> 01:37:28,092
But I also think in something that I hope I will remember if this ever, I'm in a position to contribute more, would be, do you remember like the Pineapple Fund?

2454
01:37:28,893 --> 01:37:29,752
Remember how cool that was?

2455
01:37:29,773 --> 01:37:31,893
They just like gave money away to like do, I don't know.

2456
01:37:31,893 --> 01:37:40,612
I just feel like in general, yeah, I mean, I think Bitcoiners are going to increasingly be in a position where they can do really cool things for the world.

2457
01:37:40,873 --> 01:37:42,672
And it'd be awesome to see not just Bitcoin development.

2458
01:37:42,813 --> 01:37:43,752
That's certainly one of them.

2459
01:37:43,792 --> 01:37:47,572
But like more bold ideas that the status quo won't fund.

2460
01:37:47,893 --> 01:37:50,552
I think that's one area where Bitcoiners can change the world.

2461
01:37:50,952 --> 01:37:51,612
Yeah, that's the future.

2462
01:37:51,852 --> 01:37:52,292
That's the future.

2463
01:37:52,732 --> 01:37:52,852
Yeah.

2464
01:37:53,313 --> 01:37:53,592
All right.

2465
01:37:53,672 --> 01:37:54,292
With that, we'll wrap.

2466
01:37:54,672 --> 01:37:55,012
All right.

2467
01:37:55,393 --> 01:37:55,572
Good.

2468
01:37:55,572 --> 01:37:56,092
Good chat.

2469
01:37:56,352 --> 01:37:56,612
Sweet.

2470
01:37:56,732 --> 01:37:57,132
Always fun.

2471
01:37:57,333 --> 01:37:57,592
Bye-bye.

2472
01:37:57,752 --> 01:37:57,912
Bye.