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We're on, David.

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Kick us off.

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All right.

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Well, then, here we go.

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Welcome to Presidio Bitcoin Jam.

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How are you guys doing?

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Great.

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Doing awesome, man.

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50 hours, I learned.

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Yeah.

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This will be...

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We're post-50 hours.

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That's a lot.

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With this show now.

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33 episodes booked.

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50 hours of content.

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Probably more, because sometimes we go a few minutes over.

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That's right.

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And we...

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I don't think we've ever...

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We've never gone under.

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I don't know.

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Definitely not.

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Definitely not.

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I had sort of dabbled in podcasting before,

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but I never really fell in love with it

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or was super regular about it.

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It was kind of always haphazard whenever I felt like it.

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And now kind of that we have this cadence and structure,

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like let's get together at noon Pacific on Fridays and do this.

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It's like, it's a moment of joy I look forward to each week.

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And now it's kind of in love with the process.

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I absolutely love it as well.

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Yeah, every week I'm like,

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what new crazy idea are we going to spin up live?

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Well, also I'm happy because I really don't feel like

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there's any extra overhead

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with the show

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other than doing

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the hour and a half

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we talk

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because any discussion

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we have outside of the show

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we would naturally

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have anyway.

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Any kind of like

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testing of

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BitChat

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or this new app

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or that new app

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or whatever

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or vibe coding

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whatever

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we're already doing it anyway.

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So I just like that

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it's like

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almost no extra overhead.

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We learn a lot

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in the show

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we've created

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you know

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generated tons of new ideas

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that we actually put

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into action too.

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And builders

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I think probably

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the most actionable.

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audience members get ideas or get motivated and and it changes their lives too like we you know

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we had um andy from buenos aires listen to the show learned that he could work out of presidia

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bitcoin for a period of time now he's here and he's here for five months he's a cool dude what

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he's great yeah he's we've also learned i i believe he's at the top of the leaderboard on

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pull-ups as well well should we let's talk pull-ups in boldly all right all right so

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so we talked about pull-ups uh i think last show yep and we have at least seven people at

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pristidia bitcoin who are in the double digit club for maximum number of pull-ups so i think

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that's pretty phenomenal um max is one of them uh well i i have yet to post new numbers this week so

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i i apologize i'm behind i need to grab you haven't posted your numbers so then we have at least

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at least eight because i i saw i saw firsthand you can do at least 15 so even our uh funder

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mark casey seriously mark was here doing bulbs he came in for the board meeting oh we do a quarterly

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board meeting for presidia bitcoin yo mark and he heard about our pull-up you know yeah culture

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yeah on the last show all right and uh he came in and he's in the double digit club i'm impressed i

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I mean, to be fair, Mark definitely looks like he's in shape.

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Mark, if you're listening, you definitely look like you're in shape, man.

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But double digits.

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He's an old dude like me.

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Sorry, Mark.

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I can say it because I'm also an old dude.

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I was going to be nice about it, yo.

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I'm an old dude, too.

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It's impressive.

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It's impressive.

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Yeah.

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So young, old, we're all doing double digits here.

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And then yesterday, Alex, our lead and our producer for the show, he organized a social event for members.

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And we went over to the Presidio Bowl, which is like a two-minute walk from Presidio Bitcoin.

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And we did bowling.

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And Max bailed on this.

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I don't know.

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Yeah, I'm sorry, guys.

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I'm sorry.

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Anyway, it was a lot of fun.

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Everyone had fun.

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Were there any hidden talents?

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Well, I believe almost all of us play like once every few years.

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Okay.

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We're all the same kids.

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So we had no like 200 bowlers.

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there were a couple

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Austin and Alex stood out

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they scored at least 130

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I think that's solid

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solid showing

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and then everyone else is just

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can you get to 100

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but I think everyone was

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trending better

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we were rusty right the first 5-6 frames

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hadn't bowled in several years

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so Haley in particular

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she bowled like a 50 total

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score for the first round which is

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not that great a score

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then we were able to

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given the time limits

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we were only able to

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bowl like four or five more frames

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in the second game

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and she already had like 80

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oh damn

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go Hayley

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so she was like

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going to soar past 100

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yeah I'm not surprised

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I mean Hayley definitely

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attention to detail

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I feel like you need that for

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yeah it's good

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yeah and we saw

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you know

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Leo improve dramatically

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from beginning to end

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anyway we need to do it more

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frequently

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do the French have bowling?

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I don't know

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they have patong but that's not really

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bowling it's much classier of course

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yeah I felt bad

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that I had to bail just you know I had an Indian

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music concert that was planned so it was very cool

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I also went hooping with a bunch of teenagers

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yesterday beforehand so I was very exhausted

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and I felt like the old man so

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we're all old relatively speaking

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everything is relative exactly

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but that's our

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athletic update although

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DK is like walking an insane number

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of steps yeah yeah I was gonna say

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I shared, I think the reason we kicked off in the group chat about all these accomplishments is I shared, I was quite proud that I kind of inadvertently had walked more than 10 miles a day for a few days in a row.

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And then I was like, actually, let's get a whole week out of this.

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So I managed to do a whole week ended last night of 10 miles per day.

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All right.

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So in running, a 70 mile week would be like insane.

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That's like a big, big week.

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But now I'm kind of like into it.

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Like, do I keep just going?

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Do I do that again today?

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Yeah.

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Why would you stop?

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I don't know.

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It kind of gives me old man vibes.

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Oh, wow.

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Dragging about walking steps.

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Back in my day.

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I used to do 15 miles a day.

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Barefoot.

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Given that Max is such a big walker, I wanted to understand.

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Does this sort of get into the range of competitive with Max's typical weekly?

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You want me to check?

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Yeah, yeah.

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All right, all right.

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By the way, Sean.

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I know you walk everywhere, right?

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I do.

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I'm a big walker.

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DK, he convinced me, or he showed me live back when we were sporadic podcasters on Nostra

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News.

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I had no idea that the iPhone had a feature.

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I think Elon is a big walker too, right?

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Didn't you and Elon?

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Yeah.

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Used to do a lot of walking.

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Yeah, we used to urban hike everywhere.

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Urban hike.

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A little bit less this week, actually.

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A little bit less.

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So I am currently, let's see, actually, no, no, no.

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If we count through Thursday, because today's too early to count, average steps, 18,600.

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6,

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9.

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So still up there,

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still up there,

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but I think you're,

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you're probably getting,

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you guys' numbers are impressive.

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I walk a lot.

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So does Deacon.

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I mean,

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Max made me drive my car over to his house to test if he could get a car like

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mine into his garage.

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If he doesn't have a car at all.

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Yeah.

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I would love that.

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I think the answer would be no.

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Just,

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just waiting for the new Elon Roadster.

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That could fit in there.

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That would be sick.

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Should we chat?

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Bit chat?

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Bitch.

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Let's chat.

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Do you want to?

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Right before this, I looked for the domain

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bitchat.me.

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That's a good idea.

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But it's taken.

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And I learned

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that someone nabbed

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bitchat.com

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before Jack or Kelly or someone

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could.

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Probably Ben Ark. He's always there first.

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One last thing before we chat

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into bitchat. One request

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for proposal since we're always doing this at

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our product nights. I've been asking for this product for many, many months now, but I was

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sparked listening to you guys talk about how swole we all are here at the Presbyterian Bitcoin.

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And I still want a meme generator, a very simple meme generator where I can generate memes,

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kind of like image flip or whatever, but it zapped in Bitcoin or in eCash, shared on Nostra easily.

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Lemon, he kind of did my little bounty and made some version of that, but I would love to see

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someone make this awesome. Actually, there's a real opportunity there. I just couldn't help

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seeing in my mind. I'm not exactly sure what the meme is. So I called the audience to both give the

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meme generator and the meme. But as we talk about the Bitcoiners sitting here doing double digit

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pull-ups into advanced age, as you said. Almost senior citizen. I can't imagine, but seeing some

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kind of meme in there where that's contrasted with a certain Ethereum leader dancing on stage.

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I think there's a meme in there somewhere.

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I'm just going to leave that to the audience to figure out.

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But I would love to see that.

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I would zap it.

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Well, Max, if you want to show us proof of work,

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trust me, you could actually build this thing

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before the day is over.

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You really believe that?

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I believe you could do this before the day is over.

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I would say lean on Matt a little bit

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and you start with Replit

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and you can do this entire idea end to end

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and have it deployed to a public URL

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before the end of the day.

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Today, probably challenging,

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but I can set aside one afternoon next week.

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Matt returns from vacation mid next week.

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Perfect.

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That's a good choice.

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I'll also tell you,

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speaking of being swole,

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you can vibe code on Replit from your mobile phone.

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Are you serious?

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Which I do.

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While you're working out.

272
00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:18,020
I'll go to the gym.

273
00:09:18,460 --> 00:09:19,520
I'll go to the gym.

274
00:09:19,860 --> 00:09:21,820
I'll do a set in between sets.

275
00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,800
I'll dispatch a new task to Replit.

276
00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,000
And so you can do it while you're walking.

277
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,160
You can do it while you're at the gym.

278
00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:29,780
Yep.

279
00:09:29,780 --> 00:09:30,700
It's amazing.

280
00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,720
I feel like this is life-changing technology.

281
00:09:32,900 --> 00:09:38,780
The biggest deal in technology since I've been alive,

282
00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,540
40 years since I've been involved in technology.

283
00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:43,380
As a kid, I was playing around.

284
00:09:43,780 --> 00:09:44,920
DK is revealing his age too.

285
00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,780
Let's talk about another Vibe Coded app.

286
00:09:47,900 --> 00:09:48,360
Let's do it.

287
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:48,820
BitChat.

288
00:09:49,420 --> 00:09:49,980
BitChat.

289
00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:51,500
Do you want to set it up?

290
00:09:51,540 --> 00:09:52,260
Who wants to set it up?

291
00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:52,560
Steve?

292
00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:52,940
Steve.

293
00:09:52,940 --> 00:09:55,740
Well, I figured it was on July 4th, July 1st,

294
00:09:55,900 --> 00:09:58,180
but this month, early this month,

295
00:09:58,180 --> 00:10:01,460
Jack Dorsey announced

296
00:10:01,460 --> 00:10:03,680
BitChat, the latest app

297
00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:04,420
that he's vibe-coded

298
00:10:04,420 --> 00:10:07,620
and it sounded

299
00:10:07,620 --> 00:10:08,340
pretty compelling

300
00:10:08,340 --> 00:10:10,800
it's a mobile app

301
00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,780
he launched it on iPhone

302
00:10:12,780 --> 00:10:14,700
it's a chat app

303
00:10:14,700 --> 00:10:17,300
it works over Bluetooth

304
00:10:17,300 --> 00:10:18,360
low energy

305
00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,680
does not require the internet

306
00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:23,200
it forms a mesh network

307
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:23,980
around you

308
00:10:23,980 --> 00:10:27,300
implied with that you can't chat with

309
00:10:27,300 --> 00:10:29,460
just anyone in the world. They have to be

310
00:10:29,460 --> 00:10:30,260
nearby you.

311
00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:33,540
It depends on interference and barriers,

312
00:10:33,780 --> 00:10:35,520
but 30 meters

313
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:36,240
or so.

314
00:10:36,900 --> 00:10:39,040
We tested it here at Presidia Bitcoin.

315
00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:41,620
Leo's on one end,

316
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:42,580
I's on the other end.

317
00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:44,440
We're still able to chat.

318
00:10:44,940 --> 00:10:46,940
That was just a direct connection,

319
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:48,860
but it also forms a mesh network.

320
00:10:49,260 --> 00:10:51,300
I think you can go seven or so

321
00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:52,220
hops away.

322
00:10:55,020 --> 00:10:55,460
There's

323
00:10:55,460 --> 00:10:55,840
both

324
00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,740
group chat, which is like

325
00:10:58,740 --> 00:11:00,840
public group

326
00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,680
chat within the people who are

327
00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:05,100
within proximity, and

328
00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:06,360
private chat

329
00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:07,880
that you can

330
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,600
do with anyone who's within

331
00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:11,660
proximity.

332
00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:12,740
So,

333
00:11:13,660 --> 00:11:16,460
I think that's the...

334
00:11:16,460 --> 00:11:18,680
And there's a few other

335
00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:19,960
cool features initially.

336
00:11:20,700 --> 00:11:21,980
There's like signal-like

337
00:11:21,980 --> 00:11:23,400
verification. So,

338
00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:25,680
if I want to

339
00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:34,420
confirm that the identity I'm messaging with on this app is actually Max. And I see Max,

340
00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:40,620
we can confirm the, the, uh, fingerprint, the, the fingerprint. Thank you. Uh, like signal,

341
00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:46,800
um, you can favorite people. And then there's some fun interactions. Like you can hug someone

342
00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,660
or slap someone. Steve slapped me and Bob with a fish, man. I couldn't find the fish, but

343
00:11:50,660 --> 00:11:57,560
yeah um so so a little bit of fun in there as well so that's the um the initial applications

344
00:11:57,560 --> 00:12:03,340
so let's definitely talk about like use cases of this um but then there's also been new features

345
00:12:03,340 --> 00:12:09,600
already added we can talk about that uh there's a roadmap and then we can let our imaginations run

346
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:17,280
wild as well about what we'd want to see with this um unlike other vibe coded apps i've seen

347
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,740
from Jack or others, this one really seemed to resonate.

348
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:28,420
And it's like top 200 in the app store.

349
00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:32,220
Jack posted distribution numbers of users

350
00:12:32,220 --> 00:12:35,880
and there's like lots of users in Russia, Ukraine, and US.

351
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,340
And there's like a Fortune magazine article

352
00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:43,340
that covered it today as well.

353
00:12:44,260 --> 00:12:46,580
I have a trillion questions, ideas about this.

354
00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:52,920
um maybe two things to start number one i know we haven't mentioned nostriate and that's part of the

355
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,060
new feature sets that's something we're definitely going to talk a lot about but the fact that bit

356
00:12:56,060 --> 00:12:59,580
chat already has over 100 000 downloads or whatever like it in and of itself is very interesting to

357
00:12:59,580 --> 00:13:08,760
me but it's like a meta point i just want to note at least in my mind um even if no one else gets

358
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:13,140
good at vibe coding and of course we already know that's not the case we already have dk and mad and

359
00:13:13,140 --> 00:13:20,840
Steve's getting better. Maybe one day I will. Even if all we ever get is now Jack Dorsey is able

360
00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:26,900
to ship Nostra apps at a quick cadence, this was like, I know he's got at least one other out there

361
00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:31,800
that sun tracking app. This is a couple of weeks. There's no way this is more than a month of work

362
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:38,280
as far as I'm aware. To be clear, Jack is probably the product goat, at least of our generation,

363
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,800
certainly up there with Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. The fact that he can now vibe code and just drop

364
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:48,000
apps quickly to me makes me so much more bullish on Nostra than I ever have been.

365
00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,980
We're going to talk about how he's kind of purple pilling people secretly in here,

366
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,900
but the fact that Jack can now drop, I don't know, an app a month. And then, oh, by the way,

367
00:13:56,020 --> 00:13:59,780
everyone else in the community, the Callies of the world, the DKs, the Mats are also going to

368
00:13:59,780 --> 00:14:03,880
be able to drop. This is going to spin out of control quickly. I have never been more bullish

369
00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:10,120
on Nostra than I am seeing BitChat go viral. And it's like one of his first two apps he's dropped.

370
00:14:10,660 --> 00:14:13,240
Yeah, I think he did do it in like a weekend.

371
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:15,920
And I think he's leading by example.

372
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:17,200
I don't think the world,

373
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,060
we're only going to have Jack creating apps.

374
00:14:19,580 --> 00:14:20,060
I agree.

375
00:14:20,460 --> 00:14:22,060
I think we're going to have many, many people.

376
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:23,560
There's lots of smart people around the world

377
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:24,420
with great ideas,

378
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,780
many of whom didn't have Jack's programming background

379
00:14:28,780 --> 00:14:30,240
so could never realize them.

380
00:14:30,380 --> 00:14:30,580
Right.

381
00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:32,340
Where historically,

382
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:34,620
Jack was able to traditionally program

383
00:14:34,620 --> 00:14:37,120
to realize his vision.

384
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,400
And now people with really good visions,

385
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,400
really good ideas can do it as well.

386
00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,400
And I think he's doing a great job leading by example.

387
00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:43,640
Yeah.

388
00:14:43,740 --> 00:14:47,100
And to be clear, even with him, I mean, I'm sure we would have gotten a lot more apps

389
00:14:47,100 --> 00:14:50,320
over the last 20 years if he hadn't had to like run public companies and stuff like just

390
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,640
coding in general is like a laborious, tedious project.

391
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,180
But the fact that now people that have really good product instincts or maybe who knows,

392
00:14:56,260 --> 00:14:59,260
maybe one day all of us will develop great product instincts and start dropping apps

393
00:14:59,260 --> 00:15:02,200
like that, like just like bringing that barrier down.

394
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:03,980
It's kind of like what we said many times in the show.

395
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,100
It's going to make the experts and the wizards like 100x more productive and anyone can at

396
00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:12,220
least enter, you know, enter the chat now. So the fact that it's all going to be done,

397
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,780
I believe with Nostra and with Bitcoin and Bitcoin related stuff like eCash in the background,

398
00:15:16,780 --> 00:15:20,120
I've never been more bullish on Bitcoin and Nostra products than I am right now.

399
00:15:20,380 --> 00:15:25,220
So Max, the big takeaway is lead by example. Show us how that means.

400
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,220
I hear you. I hear you. I hear you. To be fair, I've had another big project I'm working on that

401
00:15:29,220 --> 00:15:34,060
you guys are aware of, which we'll talk about at some point involving photons, but eventually,

402
00:15:34,060 --> 00:15:34,360
yes.

403
00:15:35,220 --> 00:15:36,520
If it's stuck, let me know.

404
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,700
We should be talking about use cases.

405
00:15:39,980 --> 00:15:41,760
Let's talk about connectivity

406
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:42,460
and

407
00:15:42,460 --> 00:15:45,780
internet and NOSC and going beyond

408
00:15:45,780 --> 00:15:47,460
proximity. What does that look like?

409
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:49,860
Payments, vibe coding, and

410
00:15:49,860 --> 00:15:51,920
you want to talk about solar or something. So we have all kinds of things

411
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,960
to talk about here. But let's start with use cases.

412
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,960
And maybe let's just start

413
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:57,720
with the initial application

414
00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,960
that's

415
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:00,480
only

416
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,240
mesh network proximity.

417
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,160
so anyone trying this app out

418
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,180
at first, if they download it at home

419
00:16:09,180 --> 00:16:12,040
their initial experience is going to be quite poor

420
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,900
likely because they'll literally see

421
00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:17,260
no one else, no messages

422
00:16:17,260 --> 00:16:19,140
and they can't really do anything

423
00:16:19,140 --> 00:16:21,900
so that's a bad initial user experience

424
00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:25,880
so where would this be a better

425
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,380
user experience?

426
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,480
I think I've at least heard or thought of

427
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,700
at least a dozen different things

428
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:34,220
but maybe I'll let you guys start.

429
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,820
There was a service called FireChat

430
00:16:38,820 --> 00:16:40,800
from a company called OpenGarden

431
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,260
that was launched, I don't know,

432
00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:44,720
maybe seven, eight, ten years ago.

433
00:16:45,220 --> 00:16:47,040
And it was a very similar type of

434
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,680
Bluetooth mesh networking service.

435
00:16:50,060 --> 00:16:51,720
And this was, it kind of like

436
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,920
bubbled along for, I think, a few years.

437
00:16:55,220 --> 00:16:57,360
And then I think during the Hong Kong riots,

438
00:16:57,500 --> 00:16:58,920
it really took off because

439
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,240
there was a problem with, you know,

440
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:06,680
people in the streets needing to communicate and some restrictions around, I think, internet

441
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,940
connectivity and a lot of control that the government was trying to enforce upon the

442
00:17:09,940 --> 00:17:16,240
people. So I think that, you know, just like a protest is a specific use case where we already

443
00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:21,980
have seen like very large scale adoption of this kind of product. But I think there's just like

444
00:17:21,980 --> 00:17:28,420
tons of use cases. Like when I saw the stats that you mentioned around Russia having a lot of

445
00:17:28,420 --> 00:17:34,260
downloads, it reminded me, I used to collaborate with a guy who lived in Russia, and he showed me

446
00:17:34,260 --> 00:17:40,620
a picture of his home. And they live in this very stacked vertical apartment complex where

447
00:17:40,620 --> 00:17:46,220
everybody, maybe it's 40 or 50 stories, but everybody's in close proximity. And you could

448
00:17:46,220 --> 00:17:52,020
imagine that a situation like that, if there's lots of those, people maybe want to have the

449
00:17:52,020 --> 00:17:55,840
ability to communicate with everybody who's in their apartment complex with them. And imagine

450
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,900
And kind of those, you know, if you can do seven hops, that could be like a really great use case.

451
00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:17,780
So it wouldn't surprise me if maybe there's existing kind of like Ukraine and Russia, like areas where people feel oppressed and limited in their communication or just maybe convenient to connect people that are nearby in ways that we don't necessarily live our own lives there.

452
00:18:18,420 --> 00:18:22,540
And then there's kind of rural communities that are maybe disconnected or maybe off the grid.

453
00:18:22,540 --> 00:18:25,240
so those are at least a few of the things that

454
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:26,520
come to mind for me

455
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,660
let's have the apartment building example

456
00:18:28,660 --> 00:18:30,640
I don't even know if it requires

457
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:31,700
an oppression

458
00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:33,820
like oppressive government

459
00:18:33,820 --> 00:18:36,460
it might just be like

460
00:18:36,460 --> 00:18:39,100
it guarantees

461
00:18:39,100 --> 00:18:41,180
you that these are people nearby

462
00:18:41,180 --> 00:18:43,020
now it doesn't guarantee you that it's

463
00:18:43,020 --> 00:18:44,880
tenants of the apartment building

464
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,060
but if you're like

465
00:18:46,060 --> 00:18:47,820
I'm going to go play tennis

466
00:18:47,820 --> 00:18:50,340
and you just post that

467
00:18:50,340 --> 00:18:53,760
and then you know that it's going to people nearby,

468
00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:56,400
well, that might be valuable.

469
00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,500
Or if it's 3 a.m. and someone's blaring their speakers

470
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:00,840
and you're like, I don't know who the fuck this is,

471
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:01,860
but like turn that off.

472
00:19:02,820 --> 00:19:03,140
Valuable.

473
00:19:04,940 --> 00:19:06,380
I have a slightly different ticket

474
00:19:06,380 --> 00:19:07,700
where I think this is going to pop off.

475
00:19:07,820 --> 00:19:09,960
So I think that's a very interesting use case.

476
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,880
I think that the protest is definitely one.

477
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:14,960
I mean, I will say it did say,

478
00:19:15,020 --> 00:19:15,780
at least in the first version,

479
00:19:15,860 --> 00:19:17,180
maybe this has changed in the last version.

480
00:19:17,420 --> 00:19:19,720
Like, you know, there's still a lot of like cryptography testing

481
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,000
and stuff that needs to be done.

482
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:22,780
So if you're actually in a super

483
00:19:22,780 --> 00:19:25,720
for-your-life HRF type situation,

484
00:19:26,060 --> 00:19:29,000
probably let it mature a bit.

485
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,400
Also, sorry to interject,

486
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,360
but another thing is governments

487
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:37,400
can pollute the spectrum as well

488
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,660
and block, they can jam Bluetooth.

489
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,220
So it's still a good tool to have available,

490
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,280
but it's not bulletproof against a government.

491
00:19:48,420 --> 00:19:49,020
At least not yet.

492
00:19:49,720 --> 00:20:04,280
And to me, though, because I was talking with folks who are less, let's say, down the like sovereignty, Bitcoin, Nostra rabbit hole and asking, and they're like, this is kind of cool, but like, why would any normal person ever use this unless they're like in an oppressive regime or whatever?

493
00:20:04,780 --> 00:20:09,520
And the first thing that came to mind, again, another potential vibe-coded opportunity here.

494
00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:10,580
I should do this with VO.

495
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:11,140
I know, DK.

496
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:16,680
But I can just see the BitChat app with like the, what is it, OT, the Genesis, like Coco or something.

497
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,980
I basically think this is going to like take off.

498
00:20:18,980 --> 00:20:25,420
So I would not endorsing just like a, an observation going to be like Bitcoin with a sort of gray area use cases.

499
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,980
I think like drug dealing at festivals, it's going to be, or festivals in general.

500
00:20:28,980 --> 00:20:33,700
I just like chatting with people at festivals, but the fact that you in theory have these privacy concerns as well.

501
00:20:33,780 --> 00:20:38,240
It's like, Hey, I'm at this festival ran out of, you know, the honey that I'm looking for.

502
00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:40,240
Anyone know any honey dealers around here?

503
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:40,920
Yeah.

504
00:20:40,980 --> 00:20:45,300
I think that's, that's how the normie, you know, uh, Instagram crowd comes in.

505
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,920
I believe outside lands is coming up soon.

506
00:20:48,460 --> 00:20:48,800
Exactly.

507
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:49,700
Maybe we're going to...

508
00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:52,480
If it's released, it won't be in my name.

509
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:53,540
At Golden Gate Park tonight.

510
00:20:54,220 --> 00:20:54,540
What is?

511
00:20:55,220 --> 00:20:56,140
You know, Dad & Co.

512
00:20:56,540 --> 00:20:57,520
Oh, yeah, that's tonight.

513
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,620
They're performing at Golden Gate Park tonight.

514
00:21:00,700 --> 00:21:03,320
You should roll by the park with your bitch head

515
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,980
and see if you can find some honey.

516
00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:07,840
Certainly won't be me if the feds are listening.

517
00:21:07,940 --> 00:21:08,200
Don't worry.

518
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:11,360
Yeah, so I agree.

519
00:21:11,580 --> 00:21:14,680
I think that's a very good fit for a use case.

520
00:21:15,220 --> 00:21:17,040
Sorry, DK, you were going to say something?

521
00:21:17,420 --> 00:21:18,660
Yeah, I was going to say,

522
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:35,720
I think maybe it gets a little bit into another part of the discussion, but when I see kind of a new idea like this, I think it almost should feel a little awkward.

523
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:40,120
Like anything that's really good and new should feel limited in ways and awkward ways.

524
00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:47,680
And so I like to try to understand what it is today and then kind of like, what are the assumptions?

525
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:49,540
What does that newly enable?

526
00:21:50,060 --> 00:21:51,180
What are its limits?

527
00:21:51,260 --> 00:21:51,960
What does that break?

528
00:21:53,140 --> 00:21:57,140
So one of the things I was trying to figure out is, what is this?

529
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,660
Is it mostly around location-centric?

530
00:22:01,140 --> 00:22:06,680
There's kind of this privacy thing to it or kind of anonymity or pseudonymity to it.

531
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:14,200
that that feels like a primitive that's part of what this what this is um and then and then the

532
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:22,700
the nature of being able to favorite somebody feels like it it changes the fundamental like

533
00:22:22,700 --> 00:22:27,000
limitations that felt like they're part of the early design so i'm trying to think through

534
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:33,000
what does that imply about where this could go or kind of what it what it sort of flexes out to try

535
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,400
to serve. Do you guys, have you guys played with that favorites feature yet?

536
00:22:38,020 --> 00:22:42,000
Funny you mentioned it. We were debugging it right before the show. That's why we were a few

537
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:49,400
minutes late. So because there's a brand new release a few hours ago that includes Nostre

538
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:58,180
and NIT 17, which allows you to meet someone who's nearby, mutually favorite each other. And then when

539
00:22:58,180 --> 00:23:04,720
you part ways and aren't physically approximate, then you can continue chatting,

540
00:23:05,260 --> 00:23:16,491
uh over Nostra So we uh I was told we were we were supposed to see a purple uh globe and we we did

541
00:23:16,491 --> 00:23:21,271
not, we don't yet see a purple globe. So after the show, we will, we'll figure it out. And so is,

542
00:23:21,391 --> 00:23:26,471
is the whole purpose of favoriting somebody, you're kind of like saving them, but you're doing

543
00:23:26,471 --> 00:23:31,430
it in a one way. So I could favorite you, but you might not favorite me back. And this one,

544
00:23:31,511 --> 00:23:35,971
what he's talking about. So to be clear, when you're chatting just on the mesh, it's all going

545
00:23:35,971 --> 00:23:39,971
through Bluetooth to Bluetooth. So if you leave, there's no more messaging. The genius of this,

546
00:23:40,031 --> 00:23:45,411
and this is why I think it's, Jack clearly has a plan with this, is version one didn't even

547
00:23:45,411 --> 00:23:50,471
mention the word Nostra. However, version two, the purple release today, if we double opt-in,

548
00:23:50,531 --> 00:23:55,211
so it requires double opt-in, I have to star Steve, he has to star me. And in theory, when we go home,

549
00:23:55,311 --> 00:23:59,391
now all of a sudden we use Nostra relays to do the encrypted message of DMs back and forth.

550
00:24:00,651 --> 00:24:03,691
So that's like genius because, I mean, and to your kind of question on this, like,

551
00:24:03,691 --> 00:24:06,731
where does this go? I mean, I think there's a million things this could go with, but like,

552
00:24:07,151 --> 00:24:11,991
one thing is like, it encourages people to like, I don't know, like get off the fucking internet

553
00:24:11,991 --> 00:24:16,091
and be friends and like meet up in real life and then actually like make friends and keep chatting

554
00:24:16,091 --> 00:24:22,131
with them. Another use case is dating, right? You meet, you meet someone in person, you mutually

555
00:24:22,131 --> 00:24:27,011
opt in and then you can stay connected once you leave. Right. I didn't even get that. Remember

556
00:24:27,011 --> 00:24:33,471
Paul's start, like before you had highlight or highlighter, Paul had it. He had a highlight.

557
00:24:33,691 --> 00:24:35,011
highlight, right?

558
00:24:35,711 --> 00:24:37,351
And this is

559
00:24:37,351 --> 00:24:39,231
2011

560
00:24:39,231 --> 00:24:40,631
or so?

561
00:24:41,071 --> 00:24:45,771
And the notion by that app was

562
00:24:45,771 --> 00:24:46,951
it was

563
00:24:46,951 --> 00:24:49,691
location-based, so anyone who's

564
00:24:49,691 --> 00:24:50,711
using the app to opt-in,

565
00:24:51,191 --> 00:24:52,651
shows people nearby.

566
00:24:53,751 --> 00:24:55,251
So in some ways similar, but

567
00:24:55,251 --> 00:24:57,711
a different feel

568
00:24:57,711 --> 00:24:58,831
to it than this app.

569
00:24:58,831 --> 00:25:00,911
It might be interesting for us

570
00:25:00,911 --> 00:25:01,751
to analyze that.

571
00:25:01,751 --> 00:25:05,111
And that never really took off.

572
00:25:05,671 --> 00:25:06,911
Why do you guys think it didn't take off?

573
00:25:09,151 --> 00:25:18,071
Well, I think one of the problems that was a big struggle back in the day was the method of connectivity to the people around you.

574
00:25:18,171 --> 00:25:20,071
The sort of way to identify is through GPS.

575
00:25:21,031 --> 00:25:28,491
And in 2011, I think that sounds about right, the battery management was really tough.

576
00:25:28,491 --> 00:25:39,511
So managing a background app to be able to get GPS and then managing to have that background app not consume most of your battery, the way battery management and iOS work was a real challenge.

577
00:25:39,511 --> 00:25:46,711
So here we are, whatever, 14 years later, and BLE is a very different technology than GPS.

578
00:25:47,271 --> 00:25:52,811
And so it might, I don't know all the limitations or restrictions around how it can or can't run in the background.

579
00:25:53,771 --> 00:25:58,411
But that's like BLE is like a very different approach to that kind of thing.

580
00:25:58,491 --> 00:26:02,731
Actually, speaking of BLE, do you remember, and Steve and our friends who worked on these

581
00:26:02,731 --> 00:26:07,591
startups, do you remember Carlos had worked on a BLE messaging tool?

582
00:26:08,011 --> 00:26:09,531
And it was a nightmare at the time.

583
00:26:10,271 --> 00:26:13,171
And Strava app also has always been a nightmare trying to use BLE.

584
00:26:13,171 --> 00:26:19,991
I mean, Bluetooth protocol stacks have always been relatively flaky, especially Android.

585
00:26:20,431 --> 00:26:22,891
But I assume they've matured over the last 10 years.

586
00:26:22,931 --> 00:26:24,091
Yeah, what changed?

587
00:26:24,151 --> 00:26:28,131
Because I think someone was even showing on Nostra, they were showing Jack saying, like,

588
00:26:28,131 --> 00:26:30,391
Bluetooth is like horrible to work with or something two years ago.

589
00:26:30,431 --> 00:26:33,231
So I wondered, like, did something update in the stack in the last two years?

590
00:26:33,311 --> 00:26:35,191
Did he find some new hack that made it easier?

591
00:26:35,731 --> 00:26:36,511
I don't know.

592
00:26:36,771 --> 00:26:39,731
It's definitely a story that we've been a real pain and super flaky.

593
00:26:40,691 --> 00:26:45,251
But maybe iOS and Android finally got their act together.

594
00:26:45,511 --> 00:26:47,491
The thing that, I mean, your point on dating is a good one.

595
00:26:47,551 --> 00:26:50,691
I guess any app to be successful either needs to be for drug dealer or dating.

596
00:26:50,791 --> 00:26:51,671
And this might be both.

597
00:26:53,811 --> 00:26:57,091
The way I see this, though, even outside of that, just like friends or whatever,

598
00:26:57,091 --> 00:26:59,471
I really think that there's something beautiful.

599
00:27:00,111 --> 00:27:01,771
I think there's a seed of something beautiful here,

600
00:27:01,931 --> 00:27:07,251
which is as agents and everything takes more of our attention online

601
00:27:07,251 --> 00:27:12,411
and more and more people go to cue Zuck putting the giant glasses on your head

602
00:27:12,411 --> 00:27:14,491
and you sitting in the metaverse.

603
00:27:14,871 --> 00:27:18,211
I think this plants the seed for the exact opposite of that,

604
00:27:18,311 --> 00:27:21,331
which encourages you to just go into the real world,

605
00:27:22,051 --> 00:27:24,411
take trips, meet people, do things.

606
00:27:24,411 --> 00:27:29,451
and then the internet is kind of like this like sort of background enabling piece which is nice

607
00:27:29,451 --> 00:27:34,231
because it enhances the irl like real world experience but my hope and this is where i've

608
00:27:34,231 --> 00:27:37,271
always hoped nostril's gonna go and again your nostril's been kind of cool with the twitter

609
00:27:37,271 --> 00:27:41,771
experience but obviously that's just the entree to the or the appetizer the entree which is yet

610
00:27:41,771 --> 00:27:50,231
to come but somehow my hope for technology over the next decade is that it is in the background

611
00:27:50,231 --> 00:27:52,591
while we live a more IRL,

612
00:27:52,731 --> 00:27:53,591
solar punk life.

613
00:27:54,191 --> 00:27:55,111
And this to me is like

614
00:27:55,111 --> 00:27:56,971
very much in that ethos.

615
00:27:58,511 --> 00:27:59,251
I agree.

616
00:27:59,351 --> 00:28:00,931
I think one of the observations

617
00:28:00,931 --> 00:28:01,711
I was making,

618
00:28:01,891 --> 00:28:03,231
I think I made it first in our chat,

619
00:28:03,251 --> 00:28:05,091
but then I posted a public note.

620
00:28:05,171 --> 00:28:05,971
I said, favoriting someone

621
00:28:05,971 --> 00:28:06,971
you meet on BitChat

622
00:28:06,971 --> 00:28:09,811
is a form of proof of personhood,

623
00:28:09,811 --> 00:28:11,371
a potential way to rebuild the internet

624
00:28:11,371 --> 00:28:12,371
with more clarity around

625
00:28:12,371 --> 00:28:13,611
who is real versus a bot.

626
00:28:14,251 --> 00:28:15,211
We've talked before about

627
00:28:15,211 --> 00:28:18,511
the dystopian world coin approach

628
00:28:18,511 --> 00:28:19,431
to trying to identify

629
00:28:19,431 --> 00:28:21,971
who is a person and who is a bot.

630
00:28:21,971 --> 00:28:25,951
And we've sort of expressed our distaste in that style.

631
00:28:26,231 --> 00:28:29,391
But this is actually a form of proof of personhood

632
00:28:29,391 --> 00:28:33,031
because if I see you and know you in person

633
00:28:33,031 --> 00:28:34,771
and I favorite you and you mutually favorite,

634
00:28:34,991 --> 00:28:36,691
now I kind of have a different type of internet.

635
00:28:37,251 --> 00:28:39,751
And maybe initially we're using it for private chat

636
00:28:39,751 --> 00:28:40,931
or groups or local chat,

637
00:28:40,991 --> 00:28:43,531
but maybe it could extend that to,

638
00:28:43,751 --> 00:28:44,851
like I think we're already seeing

639
00:28:44,851 --> 00:28:46,551
with the NIP 17 NOSRA thing,

640
00:28:46,551 --> 00:28:51,411
you extend it to an internet of people in a different way.

641
00:28:51,611 --> 00:28:53,851
And so it's an internet that probably it's tougher to find.

642
00:28:54,131 --> 00:28:57,231
It's tougher for bots to sneak their way in to that experience.

643
00:28:57,231 --> 00:29:00,591
You get a lot more certainty around like who it is that you're interacting with.

644
00:29:00,791 --> 00:29:04,451
Yeah, I'd say that's one of the more bullish things that I've heard recently about Nostr.

645
00:29:04,671 --> 00:29:04,911
Yeah.

646
00:29:05,071 --> 00:29:09,211
Because it really does seem like it could, that seems like a strong contender,

647
00:29:09,791 --> 00:29:16,371
BitChat plus Nostr to proving that you're human versus something like WorldCoin.

648
00:29:16,551 --> 00:29:18,031
Yeah, I could not agree more.

649
00:29:18,531 --> 00:29:23,151
And again, it's in a bottoms-up, decentralized, non-authoritarian way.

650
00:29:23,431 --> 00:29:23,911
I think it's awesome.

651
00:29:24,431 --> 00:29:25,571
And we've talked about-

652
00:29:25,571 --> 00:29:26,491
No token as well.

653
00:29:26,631 --> 00:29:27,411
No pre-mined token.

654
00:29:27,571 --> 00:29:29,551
No token, no IRA scan necessary.

655
00:29:29,791 --> 00:29:31,091
So that's always a plus.

656
00:29:32,051 --> 00:29:34,511
I do think, I mean, two thoughts come to mind immediately.

657
00:29:35,891 --> 00:29:38,331
One, there was that tweet.

658
00:29:38,511 --> 00:29:40,891
I think Balaji made a tweet a couple of weeks ago where he was saying like,

659
00:29:40,891 --> 00:29:46,191
IRL, not IRL, like person-only social networks are going to be a really big thing.

660
00:29:46,551 --> 00:30:13,631
And then I sort of made the comment back where I was like, well, I don't think I don't see any way to do that without either Nostra Web of Trust or scan the iris. And he liked that. So it seems like he was actually kind of thinking along those ways. I had not yet thought of this like here to be a thing. But the beauty of this is it's also the basis of other kinds of webs of trust. And we've talked a lot about Web of Trust on here. First is like proof of personhood. But you could imagine this could go on to so many other kinds of things like you could layer on top of that.

661
00:30:13,631 --> 00:30:18,691
I mean, both sort of explicitly and implicitly through AI things like, hey, like if we met,

662
00:30:18,991 --> 00:30:21,791
you know, at, I don't know, like, I don't know how this would be layered in.

663
00:30:21,971 --> 00:30:25,651
It could just be like, you know, based on the date and the GPS location of where you

664
00:30:25,651 --> 00:30:25,811
were.

665
00:30:25,871 --> 00:30:29,371
But if we met at Procedure Bitcoin, that says a certain kind of thing about the person.

666
00:30:29,371 --> 00:30:32,131
If they were sitting here talking, you know, on the builder night.

667
00:30:32,471 --> 00:30:35,231
Okay, well, that's like a really interesting curiosity that you can start saying this person

668
00:30:35,231 --> 00:30:37,611
is likely more Bitcoin or likely more orange pill.

669
00:30:38,491 --> 00:30:42,771
What you can do with the web of trust from proof of person to all kinds of like niche

670
00:30:42,771 --> 00:30:44,291
things we haven't thought of yet, that's going to be cool.

671
00:30:45,131 --> 00:30:47,051
So another use case is

672
00:30:47,051 --> 00:30:48,771
like

673
00:30:48,771 --> 00:30:50,931
merchants. I think it was

674
00:30:50,931 --> 00:30:53,131
Grubles or not Grubles or whatever his name is

675
00:30:53,131 --> 00:30:54,851
tweeted out that

676
00:30:54,851 --> 00:30:56,651
at a conference you might have a

677
00:30:56,651 --> 00:30:58,731
vendor booth with a

678
00:30:58,731 --> 00:31:00,251
giveaway. They give out

679
00:31:00,251 --> 00:31:02,411
eCash and they

680
00:31:02,411 --> 00:31:04,731
publish that and then it only

681
00:31:04,731 --> 00:31:06,771
reaches people who are

682
00:31:06,771 --> 00:31:07,411
within

683
00:31:07,411 --> 00:31:10,751
proximity of that vendor booth

684
00:31:10,751 --> 00:31:12,551
and it would attract people to that booth.

685
00:31:12,771 --> 00:31:13,691
I think that's interesting.

686
00:31:13,691 --> 00:31:27,931
You can also imagine at a farmer's market or any kind of like a truck, food truck area, things like that, or any kind of food court, you could see commerce being promoted there as well.

687
00:31:28,271 --> 00:31:29,751
I mean, we should talk about spam as well, though.

688
00:31:30,571 --> 00:31:35,991
What if spammers just completely flooded that public channel?

689
00:31:36,211 --> 00:31:36,371
Yeah.

690
00:31:36,491 --> 00:31:38,951
And then how do you address that abuse?

691
00:31:38,951 --> 00:31:41,211
but at least starting with use case

692
00:31:41,211 --> 00:31:42,971
I think that's another potentially compelling

693
00:31:42,971 --> 00:31:45,211
use case. Well and one thing on there

694
00:31:45,211 --> 00:31:47,151
actually now that you say

695
00:31:47,151 --> 00:31:48,811
this like if I were to like

696
00:31:48,811 --> 00:31:51,111
kind of bet where I could see this developing

697
00:31:51,111 --> 00:31:53,171
to a really interesting startup opportunity I don't know

698
00:31:53,171 --> 00:31:55,091
if Jack will do this through the company or maybe someone

699
00:31:55,091 --> 00:31:56,871
else could do this maybe Jeff and

700
00:31:56,871 --> 00:31:58,751
Max with they're working on the white noise already

701
00:31:58,751 --> 00:32:01,071
so one of the killer apps that I've

702
00:32:01,071 --> 00:32:03,091
been wanting to see on Nostra forever is local

703
00:32:03,091 --> 00:32:04,891
Bitcoins right so

704
00:32:04,891 --> 00:32:07,411
just peer to peer Bitcoin for cash transactions

705
00:32:07,411 --> 00:32:24,391
And I think the key to getting something like a local Bitcoin is really working is having that be on an encrypted messenger. I thought it was probably going to be from the primals of the world first. And obviously, because it's all interoperable, they could feed into this. But BitChat actually seems like the most credible starting place I've seen.

706
00:32:24,391 --> 00:32:28,831
because now, I mean, you could literally do it like in person, although eventually, you know,

707
00:32:28,871 --> 00:32:33,011
or, you know, maybe you could have like mutual opt-in like, hey, I haven't met you in person

708
00:32:33,011 --> 00:32:38,471
yet, but Steve opts you in so you can still pass your whatever Nostra keys to me. All of a sudden,

709
00:32:38,471 --> 00:32:42,671
you can build all kinds of commerce on top of this. And we haven't talked about this.

710
00:32:43,011 --> 00:32:46,691
I don't think there's like a live release of this yet, but we were talking with Damien and Bob a

711
00:32:46,691 --> 00:32:50,651
little bit about sort of e-cash coming into this thing. But if you have private money backed by

712
00:32:50,651 --> 00:32:54,871
Bitcoin that you can actually send to someone over private commerce, all of a sudden, like,

713
00:32:55,371 --> 00:32:58,791
I mean, that's like one of the most bullish things for freedom, for Bitcoin, like actually

714
00:32:58,791 --> 00:33:00,951
being, you know, medium of exchange I've ever seen.

715
00:33:01,251 --> 00:33:03,411
Peer-to-peer commerce with private communications.

716
00:33:03,411 --> 00:33:04,871
That seems pretty unstoppable.

717
00:33:05,771 --> 00:33:05,891
Yep.

718
00:33:06,211 --> 00:33:06,951
I agree.

719
00:33:07,131 --> 00:33:08,971
Let's talk about some of the different payment forms.

720
00:33:09,271 --> 00:33:15,791
And also, Callie just had a really good podcast on Citadel Dispatch with Matt Odell.

721
00:33:16,091 --> 00:33:16,171
Yesterday?

722
00:33:17,031 --> 00:33:17,871
Two days ago.

723
00:33:18,051 --> 00:33:19,231
I've listened to the whole thing.

724
00:33:19,231 --> 00:33:22,111
It's like an hour and 50 minutes long, but it's really good.

725
00:33:22,311 --> 00:33:27,231
Anyone interested in BitChat or anything we're talking about should definitely check out Citadel Dispatch.

726
00:33:27,311 --> 00:33:29,651
Also, just shout out, Callie.

727
00:33:30,331 --> 00:33:34,311
We've talked a few times in the show about people that just really always push the fuel forward.

728
00:33:34,451 --> 00:33:35,211
We've talked about Pierre.

729
00:33:35,671 --> 00:33:37,311
I think Ben has done that, BenArc a little bit.

730
00:33:37,691 --> 00:33:42,471
Callie is definitely one of those super 1,000x thinkers, coders, deliverers.

731
00:33:42,751 --> 00:33:46,631
If you look at all kinds of stuff, he was early in pushing EllenBits out there.

732
00:33:46,631 --> 00:33:54,411
He was early in pushing the Telegram bot for Lightning payments early in creating and shipping Cashew, making all this possible.

733
00:33:54,591 --> 00:33:56,331
That dude is one of the 100x guys.

734
00:33:56,731 --> 00:33:59,231
He's also a positive force.

735
00:33:59,411 --> 00:33:59,571
Yeah.

736
00:33:59,571 --> 00:34:00,351
I mean, he's not a hater.

737
00:34:00,571 --> 00:34:01,311
No, he's a good guy.

738
00:34:01,371 --> 00:34:08,891
A lot of people get, oh, eCash people hate on Lightning or Lightning people hate on eCash.

739
00:34:09,011 --> 00:34:10,951
And Callie sees the good in Lightning.

740
00:34:11,131 --> 00:34:13,111
He sees the good in eCash.

741
00:34:13,111 --> 00:34:19,431
He also sees the drawbacks, isn't afraid to admit it, sees the good of Nostra.

742
00:34:21,611 --> 00:34:32,971
And by the way, on Callie, if I understand right, it was just a few days after Jack first did the first prototype that Callie came in and did an Android version.

743
00:34:33,451 --> 00:34:33,751
Is that right?

744
00:34:33,931 --> 00:34:40,331
Yeah, he describes, I'll summarize what he talks about in the podcast, but he was not aware that Jack was building this.

745
00:34:40,331 --> 00:34:43,371
so he didn't have knowledge ahead of time.

746
00:34:43,791 --> 00:34:47,231
He saw it when the rest of us saw it announced.

747
00:34:47,971 --> 00:34:50,911
And then he got to work on an Android version

748
00:34:50,911 --> 00:34:57,591
because Jack built a Swift iOS version.

749
00:34:58,971 --> 00:35:06,811
He said he used Goose and Claude Sonnet 4 primarily.

750
00:35:07,191 --> 00:35:08,931
He did have to do some hand coding,

751
00:35:08,931 --> 00:35:10,391
the noise protocol.

752
00:35:11,951 --> 00:35:14,071
The LLM wasn't able to handle that,

753
00:35:14,171 --> 00:35:15,171
but mostly Vibe-coded.

754
00:35:15,571 --> 00:35:16,291
Wow, I didn't know that.

755
00:35:17,411 --> 00:35:20,971
But yeah, so Cali learned about it,

756
00:35:21,131 --> 00:35:21,971
picked it up right away,

757
00:35:22,351 --> 00:35:24,271
and within like half a day,

758
00:35:25,111 --> 00:35:27,171
had an initial Android version.

759
00:35:27,871 --> 00:35:29,091
And he describes this process,

760
00:35:29,171 --> 00:35:33,351
it's similar to what we've discussed before.

761
00:35:34,691 --> 00:35:35,911
He was really more,

762
00:35:36,091 --> 00:35:37,550
even though Cali's a very competent,

763
00:35:37,550 --> 00:35:40,371
traditional programmer he sort of put his

764
00:35:40,371 --> 00:35:42,231
PM hat on and just

765
00:35:42,231 --> 00:35:44,331
instructed the LLM here's what I want

766
00:35:44,331 --> 00:35:46,331
and just wrote up a plan and here's what I want

767
00:35:46,331 --> 00:35:48,291
very meticulous step by

768
00:35:48,291 --> 00:35:48,671
step

769
00:35:48,671 --> 00:35:52,611
and was able to quickly build

770
00:35:52,611 --> 00:35:54,231
a working Android

771
00:35:54,231 --> 00:35:54,731
version

772
00:35:54,731 --> 00:35:58,331
and he also said

773
00:35:58,331 --> 00:36:00,071
similar to Jack that

774
00:36:00,071 --> 00:36:01,891
noise protocol needed some

775
00:36:01,891 --> 00:36:04,451
hand coding and he had to look at code

776
00:36:04,451 --> 00:36:06,331
and stuff like that so someone who doesn't

777
00:36:06,331 --> 00:36:11,411
know how to code probably couldn't have fully done this uh but could have got gotten a long ways but

778
00:36:11,411 --> 00:36:17,011
um yeah he's he's blown away by what what he can do and i i thought he he shared a really

779
00:36:17,011 --> 00:36:23,911
interesting point um a lot of startups use react native or more recent in the past few years flutter

780
00:36:23,911 --> 00:36:28,871
if they want to support both iphone and android yeah because if you know if you're a startup

781
00:36:28,871 --> 00:36:32,871
pre-funding or you only have c funding you have like one dev it's like very difficult to

782
00:36:32,871 --> 00:36:35,231
build and maintain two separate

783
00:36:35,231 --> 00:36:37,331
native code bases, Swift

784
00:36:37,331 --> 00:36:37,891
and Kotlin.

785
00:36:38,851 --> 00:36:40,111
But that's changed.

786
00:36:40,591 --> 00:36:42,951
It's changed. Obviously, they just demonstrated

787
00:36:42,951 --> 00:36:44,251
it with BitChat

788
00:36:44,251 --> 00:36:46,991
how they were able to

789
00:36:46,991 --> 00:36:49,151
quickly build both native code bases

790
00:36:49,151 --> 00:36:51,291
and get an app out there

791
00:36:51,291 --> 00:36:52,771
and see if

792
00:36:52,771 --> 00:36:54,931
the app's interesting, see if there's product

793
00:36:54,931 --> 00:36:57,050
market fit. And I think long term,

794
00:36:57,050 --> 00:36:58,671
if it is a popular app

795
00:36:58,671 --> 00:37:00,871
and the code base does grow

796
00:37:00,871 --> 00:37:01,911
and features grow,

797
00:37:01,911 --> 00:37:04,210
we're still at a point where you need

798
00:37:04,210 --> 00:37:06,731
traditional programmers, you need humans

799
00:37:06,731 --> 00:37:08,371
and they're going to do hand coding

800
00:37:08,371 --> 00:37:10,611
and Callie even points that out. Basically, as

801
00:37:10,611 --> 00:37:12,731
time goes on, code base grows

802
00:37:12,731 --> 00:37:14,351
complexity grows

803
00:37:14,351 --> 00:37:16,451
LLMs get

804
00:37:16,451 --> 00:37:18,591
confused and start not being able

805
00:37:18,591 --> 00:37:19,871
to manage it anymore.

806
00:37:20,671 --> 00:37:21,710
For now.

807
00:37:22,291 --> 00:37:22,911
For now.

808
00:37:24,311 --> 00:37:26,171
But to get going

809
00:37:26,171 --> 00:37:27,151
you know

810
00:37:27,151 --> 00:37:30,411
obviously they just proved that you can use

811
00:37:30,411 --> 00:37:35,631
an LLM and you can have native code. So you get the best of both worlds, move fast, get on both

812
00:37:35,631 --> 00:37:41,971
platforms, but also deliver really native, excellent user experiences for users. I like,

813
00:37:42,071 --> 00:37:48,591
by the way, that you're calling it hand coding. It already sounds like we're in that position

814
00:37:48,591 --> 00:37:53,471
where it's like, oh, like the artisanal, like this is, you know, authentic, organic, you know.

815
00:37:53,611 --> 00:37:59,210
I believe Jack literally speaks his English vibe coding. Really? He doesn't type it. So

816
00:37:59,210 --> 00:38:02,351
I think he is literally hands-free

817
00:38:02,351 --> 00:38:03,611
building these applications.

818
00:38:05,471 --> 00:38:06,511
That's a way to do it.

819
00:38:06,771 --> 00:38:07,791
That was the original

820
00:38:07,791 --> 00:38:08,751
Carpoppy

821
00:38:08,751 --> 00:38:11,891
VibeCode. The tweet that defined

822
00:38:11,891 --> 00:38:13,891
VibeCoding says that he used

823
00:38:13,891 --> 00:38:16,131
his Super Whisper as a Mac OS app

824
00:38:16,131 --> 00:38:17,851
so he can speak to the thing.

825
00:38:18,231 --> 00:38:19,731
That's kind of a intuitive form of the

826
00:38:19,731 --> 00:38:20,271
art.

827
00:38:22,011 --> 00:38:23,671
DK, were you going to say something?

828
00:38:24,631 --> 00:38:24,891
Or not?

829
00:38:25,251 --> 00:38:25,371
Yeah.

830
00:38:26,671 --> 00:38:28,371
One of the questions I was asking

831
00:38:28,371 --> 00:38:33,991
in the chat that I don't think I ever quite fully digested touches on this kind of Kali

832
00:38:33,991 --> 00:38:39,151
kind of directional thing is, you know, obviously BLE is a transport protocol.

833
00:38:39,571 --> 00:38:46,131
But when you move up to the layer of BitChat, is BitChat meant to be a messaging protocol?

834
00:38:46,131 --> 00:38:52,710
Or is it more like a messaging app? And now Kali can build the Android version of that same

835
00:38:52,710 --> 00:39:01,191
messaging app but uh you know for example if if um uh if uh max wanted to build the local bitcoins

836
00:39:01,191 --> 00:39:05,951
idea that he's been excited about for a long time and he sees this as a good substrate does he have

837
00:39:05,951 --> 00:39:14,971
to contribute like a feature like you know raise a pull request into the main repo of bitchat or

838
00:39:14,971 --> 00:39:21,631
can he launch a separate app that intends to uh to use the messaging layer of bitchat but doesn't

839
00:39:21,631 --> 00:39:25,131
necessarily need to be part of that product experience.

840
00:39:25,811 --> 00:39:27,550
You should ask Grock right now.

841
00:39:29,471 --> 00:39:32,611
Well, I did ask it and I have not.

842
00:39:32,611 --> 00:39:34,011
Let me Google that for you, bro.

843
00:39:34,491 --> 00:39:36,411
Is it more like a protocol or an app?

844
00:39:36,471 --> 00:39:40,571
And it says, BitChat is primarily an app, but operates using a protocol like the centralized

845
00:39:40,571 --> 00:39:43,371
architecture that leverages DLE mesh networking.

846
00:39:43,530 --> 00:39:48,671
My understanding is it was already using from day one, the white noise protocol, I think.

847
00:39:48,671 --> 00:39:51,030
I may have that wrong but if that's the case

848
00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:53,050
then actually I don't know does that mean

849
00:39:53,050 --> 00:39:55,451
that BitChat is already interoperable

850
00:39:55,451 --> 00:39:56,550
with what Jeff

851
00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:59,271
and Max are working on with white noise

852
00:39:59,271 --> 00:40:00,210
and their sort of

853
00:40:00,210 --> 00:40:03,091
implementation I guess I don't know

854
00:40:03,091 --> 00:40:04,811
if that speaks best to you. I don't know but we do know though

855
00:40:04,811 --> 00:40:06,811
is that the iPhone and Android app are

856
00:40:06,811 --> 00:40:08,891
compatible with each other

857
00:40:08,891 --> 00:40:10,831
they achieve compatibility and I think I mean

858
00:40:10,831 --> 00:40:12,591
it's using the noise protocol just really

859
00:40:12,591 --> 00:40:15,131
they've now added

860
00:40:15,131 --> 00:40:17,011
NIP 17

861
00:40:17,011 --> 00:40:19,291
is another way protocol to communicate.

862
00:40:19,690 --> 00:40:21,751
But as far as other protocols or platforms

863
00:40:21,751 --> 00:40:24,551
for third parties to build stuff, I don't know.

864
00:40:24,871 --> 00:40:25,571
The other thing that's going to be,

865
00:40:25,631 --> 00:40:26,371
it's a good question, DK,

866
00:40:26,511 --> 00:40:27,671
and something we should figure out for next week

867
00:40:27,671 --> 00:40:29,631
because like, yeah, it would be really cool.

868
00:40:29,911 --> 00:40:31,971
Again, my sort of vision for the local Bitcoins thing

869
00:40:31,971 --> 00:40:33,511
has always been it's not just one company,

870
00:40:33,791 --> 00:40:35,451
but imagine you have like, I don't know,

871
00:40:35,511 --> 00:40:37,011
like a hundred different local Bitcoins,

872
00:40:37,091 --> 00:40:38,311
but they all have a shared order book

873
00:40:38,311 --> 00:40:40,271
or a potential for a shared order book.

874
00:40:40,411 --> 00:40:41,291
That's really interesting to me.

875
00:40:42,031 --> 00:40:45,251
The other thing though with the Nostra integration

876
00:40:45,251 --> 00:40:46,651
is I guess like in theory,

877
00:40:47,011 --> 00:40:53,131
I mean, I think someone was mentioning this, that one of the next releases hopefully will be you could just swap out your keys.

878
00:40:53,710 --> 00:40:54,911
So you could just add Nostra keys.

879
00:40:55,011 --> 00:40:59,710
One big question I have is why are the original keys in BitChat not just Nostra keys already?

880
00:40:59,811 --> 00:41:00,651
I think they're very similar.

881
00:41:01,391 --> 00:41:02,031
I don't know.

882
00:41:02,231 --> 00:41:02,951
I'd be curious.

883
00:41:03,571 --> 00:41:08,051
Maybe Jack has some good thinking around that, and maybe he'll explain it on Primal or something, on Nostra.

884
00:41:08,491 --> 00:41:13,451
But regardless, if you can then swap in your Nostra keys, then that gets super powerful,

885
00:41:13,451 --> 00:41:15,971
because then you've already got the whatever 100,000 plus people

886
00:41:15,971 --> 00:41:19,210
that are using Primal and Domus daily and Amethyst, etc.

887
00:41:19,611 --> 00:41:21,911
that can now talk with all these new people very easily.

888
00:41:23,231 --> 00:41:26,051
But in a sense, that kind of breaks a little bit of the contract

889
00:41:26,051 --> 00:41:28,091
that the new system is establishing.

890
00:41:28,391 --> 00:41:28,571
Why?

891
00:41:29,951 --> 00:41:32,911
Well, if you have a bunch of mutual followers,

892
00:41:33,051 --> 00:41:34,831
you might not have been super discerning about

893
00:41:34,831 --> 00:41:37,311
who you mutually followed on Noster.

894
00:41:38,091 --> 00:41:40,891
But BitChat is in a sense like a graph reset.

895
00:41:40,891 --> 00:41:47,231
so i don't know the details of how it's meant to like how those relationships are meant to be

896
00:41:47,231 --> 00:41:52,951
stored are they stored on nostr are they stored locally on your i assume they're probably stored

897
00:41:52,951 --> 00:41:58,891
locally on your device because i think there's a bunch of local storage that you can wipe i think

898
00:41:58,891 --> 00:42:03,511
i read something about a triple tap to wipe your local storage in case you're under duress or

899
00:42:03,511 --> 00:42:10,511
something um my guess is those relationships are some sort of like a a hash that you know you notice

900
00:42:10,511 --> 00:42:16,651
again when it discovers the person, but it's not otherwise like a strongly linked identity and

901
00:42:16,651 --> 00:42:21,351
certainly not a public one. Well, my guess though is that what I'm talking about will be optional.

902
00:42:22,351 --> 00:42:27,210
And I mean, maybe it's a good idea not to combine them at all, but I have to think that if it's

903
00:42:27,210 --> 00:42:31,551
tapping into Nostrum, we already had this kind of like hot network effect going, it would be better.

904
00:42:31,791 --> 00:42:36,210
Like, and maybe you do it where you just like put in your new keys. Like I could just drop my

905
00:42:36,210 --> 00:42:40,931
nostril keys that i use on primal now or maybe there's some like mapping function where it's like

906
00:42:40,931 --> 00:42:46,451
you know i can keep the same keys i have on bit chat but when i want to opt in and also start

907
00:42:46,451 --> 00:42:52,771
sending you know nip 17 messages and eventually other kinds of nostril events then i could access

908
00:42:52,771 --> 00:42:58,690
both right i don't know what the plan is going to be but i mean it's a good question let's talk a

909
00:42:58,690 --> 00:43:04,371
little bit about like connectivity so starting with the mesh network i mean one thing that i

910
00:43:04,371 --> 00:43:12,011
believe is the case at least on ios um the app has to be in the you don't get a guarantee that

911
00:43:12,011 --> 00:43:18,431
it's going to be running in the background so if um so if your phone's in your pocket

912
00:43:18,431 --> 00:43:25,591
it's unlikely to like forward a message that it receives onto the next node in the mesh network

913
00:43:25,591 --> 00:43:32,671
so that's a gotcha that i really haven't seen spoken about too much um or at all really uh

914
00:43:32,671 --> 00:43:35,311
but I do believe it employs a store and forward architecture.

915
00:43:35,811 --> 00:43:39,131
So if your phone does receive a message,

916
00:43:39,351 --> 00:43:41,210
it can hold it until it,

917
00:43:42,151 --> 00:43:45,471
until like the next node that it wants to send to comes,

918
00:43:45,551 --> 00:43:46,451
comes back online.

919
00:43:47,891 --> 00:43:49,690
So I'd like to see like real world,

920
00:43:51,111 --> 00:43:51,951
you know,

921
00:43:51,991 --> 00:43:56,651
experience or data on that to see how well the mesh network actually works.

922
00:43:57,210 --> 00:43:58,571
Android should be much better.

923
00:43:58,931 --> 00:43:59,210
Android,

924
00:43:59,491 --> 00:44:01,431
you generally get better background.

925
00:44:01,431 --> 00:44:04,371
access for an app.

926
00:44:06,190 --> 00:44:08,991
So this also might be location dependent too.

927
00:44:09,271 --> 00:44:12,891
I mean, like Android has much higher market share globally.

928
00:44:13,251 --> 00:44:13,351
Right.

929
00:44:13,891 --> 00:44:18,991
So certain geographies, if it's dominant Android, maybe this is like a non-problem.

930
00:44:19,651 --> 00:44:25,511
Or even like in the US or Japan or whatever, iPhone's pretty dominant.

931
00:44:25,851 --> 00:44:27,011
You know, what's the threshold?

932
00:44:27,131 --> 00:44:31,031
Maybe if there's like 10 or 20% of the users that have Android, that's sufficient.

933
00:44:31,431 --> 00:44:33,831
to have a successful mesh network.

934
00:44:34,611 --> 00:44:35,671
That's one thing I wanted to note.

935
00:44:36,851 --> 00:44:39,851
Now, we're talking excited about Nostra,

936
00:44:39,931 --> 00:44:42,031
but let's just talk about the regular internet too.

937
00:44:42,811 --> 00:44:48,011
Meaning, as long as one node on the mesh

938
00:44:48,011 --> 00:44:49,331
is connected to the internet,

939
00:44:49,631 --> 00:44:53,151
then anyone on that mesh could connect to the internet.

940
00:44:54,151 --> 00:44:58,731
I think I read or heard that's on the roadmap,

941
00:44:58,731 --> 00:45:00,991
but not exactly sure.

942
00:45:01,431 --> 00:45:04,751
I think that could be compelling.

943
00:45:05,791 --> 00:45:08,871
Now that node that's basically acting as a hotspot

944
00:45:08,871 --> 00:45:13,131
would have to be either on Android running in the background

945
00:45:13,131 --> 00:45:15,591
or keep their app open on the iPhone.

946
00:45:16,531 --> 00:45:17,651
It could drain their battery.

947
00:45:19,351 --> 00:45:20,851
So there's some practical...

948
00:45:20,851 --> 00:45:22,231
Could you consume their bandwidth

949
00:45:22,231 --> 00:45:24,411
depending on what their data plan looks like?

950
00:45:24,651 --> 00:45:24,851
Yeah.

951
00:45:25,091 --> 00:45:26,951
So there's a bunch of practical things there.

952
00:45:27,611 --> 00:45:29,951
But nonetheless, for a lot of these use cases,

953
00:45:30,391 --> 00:45:31,331
like, so what?

954
00:45:31,431 --> 00:45:49,851
Okay, so one of the first things that popped in my mind when I started thinking about the implications of this. So do you guys remember there was the Gotenna Mesh Network and they were trying to do lightning payments? This was like 2018 or 2019. This was forever ago. And I remember reading this and just being like super fascinated, but it was like very hobbyist, like no adoption, but it was like super cool in theory.

955
00:45:49,851 --> 00:45:56,751
then um i've recommended this many times you know drew bansal's 2018 blockchain mind candy talk one

956
00:45:56,751 --> 00:46:02,291
of the best talks about in bitcoin of all time and he talks a lot about uh basically establishing

957
00:46:02,291 --> 00:46:06,531
you know mesh he basically talks about like new kinds of mesh networks basically like

958
00:46:06,531 --> 00:46:12,331
with lighting network work the ability to meter in real time and pay for bandwidth storage and

959
00:46:12,331 --> 00:46:16,451
compute all of the resources that we use and his big thing is he's like yeah and you're gonna have

960
00:46:16,451 --> 00:46:17,851
these entrepreneurs are gonna have to go out there

961
00:46:17,851 --> 00:46:28,941
and take all of this bandwidth and sell it And it was like yeah it always I think directionally he super but like how we get there was never clear to me Maybe this is how we get there So to your point imagine like okay

962
00:46:28,961 --> 00:46:30,321
so there could be people with their phones

963
00:46:30,321 --> 00:46:32,461
in the background and like, well, you know,

964
00:46:32,541 --> 00:46:34,121
they've got a fat data plan

965
00:46:34,121 --> 00:46:36,841
or maybe someone comes and sets up a specific node,

966
00:46:36,961 --> 00:46:37,981
just apperate a Bitcoin.

967
00:46:38,381 --> 00:46:40,121
And how would they solve who gets to send a message?

968
00:46:40,241 --> 00:46:40,661
Oh, I don't know.

969
00:46:40,721 --> 00:46:42,681
Wish there was a solution for that, like a market.

970
00:46:44,061 --> 00:46:46,601
Yep. Is it the Helium?

971
00:46:46,601 --> 00:46:48,241
is at the startup with the token and stuff.

972
00:46:48,481 --> 00:46:50,721
So this feels like a way to achieve that

973
00:46:50,721 --> 00:46:51,861
without tokens and stuff.

974
00:46:52,441 --> 00:46:55,201
It's basically like a pop-up enterprise.

975
00:46:55,681 --> 00:46:58,221
It's a pop-up one-person small business

976
00:46:58,221 --> 00:47:00,221
and they show up at outside lands

977
00:47:00,221 --> 00:47:03,041
or they show up at conferences or events.

978
00:47:03,961 --> 00:47:06,201
And yeah, all the concerns I mentioned

979
00:47:06,201 --> 00:47:09,041
about background and battery and stuff,

980
00:47:09,181 --> 00:47:11,641
you'd have a setup where you have plenty of power.

981
00:47:12,321 --> 00:47:13,561
And you could drop a starling.

982
00:47:13,561 --> 00:47:19,221
It's a dedicated system to provide you.

983
00:47:19,221 --> 00:47:25,801
You go out to Black Rock City or Coachella and you bring a Starling and you become just like a spot entrepreneur.

984
00:47:26,041 --> 00:47:26,501
You're an entrepreneur.

985
00:47:26,721 --> 00:47:28,621
It's literally like the dudes that are selling hot dogs.

986
00:47:28,641 --> 00:47:30,901
And you're paid with Bitcoin.

987
00:47:30,981 --> 00:47:31,301
Or honey.

988
00:47:31,581 --> 00:47:32,181
Or you got it.

989
00:47:33,601 --> 00:47:34,121
Well, yeah.

990
00:47:34,601 --> 00:47:35,181
Yeah, same thing.

991
00:47:35,181 --> 00:47:35,361
Bitcoin.

992
00:47:37,001 --> 00:47:38,881
That's just a technology detail.

993
00:47:39,381 --> 00:47:40,621
At least you didn't say SAVS.

994
00:47:40,621 --> 00:47:43,781
I mean you could use lightning too

995
00:47:43,781 --> 00:47:45,061
I mean that's one thing we can get into

996
00:47:45,061 --> 00:47:46,941
like there's so much excitement about e-cash

997
00:47:46,941 --> 00:47:49,021
but like I don't see why lightning can't be used

998
00:47:49,021 --> 00:47:50,281
in this situation either

999
00:47:50,281 --> 00:47:53,121
but again I mean to me

1000
00:47:53,121 --> 00:47:55,001
the really really really critical

1001
00:47:55,001 --> 00:47:55,721
thing is

1002
00:47:55,721 --> 00:47:59,101
when you're thinking about how to achieve

1003
00:47:59,101 --> 00:48:01,001
the like bottoms up decentralized

1004
00:48:01,001 --> 00:48:03,061
version of the world I know we all want to see

1005
00:48:03,061 --> 00:48:04,261
the beauty is

1006
00:48:04,261 --> 00:48:06,841
you give people the tools

1007
00:48:06,841 --> 00:48:08,521
and then you just let it go wild

1008
00:48:08,521 --> 00:48:09,741
like anyone

1009
00:48:09,741 --> 00:48:14,661
like how will we solve this problem it's like because at the edge there will always be someone

1010
00:48:14,661 --> 00:48:19,941
who says i can go acquire a fatter data plan i can go and build like one of the things you you

1011
00:48:19,941 --> 00:48:23,801
you said i wanted to mention because i saw this cool tweet um i think jack shared this one on

1012
00:48:23,801 --> 00:48:29,281
twitter someone's already trying to run a whatever they're calling a bit mesh node or whatever

1013
00:48:29,281 --> 00:48:33,841
powered by solar and you could imagine you literally like to your point maybe it's powered

1014
00:48:33,841 --> 00:48:39,221
by solar you know tapping into starlink and you've got you know whatever massive bandwidth in the

1015
00:48:39,221 --> 00:48:43,781
middle of a burning man or whatever. And like, yeah, you're making a lot of money. And then it's

1016
00:48:43,781 --> 00:48:46,741
like, well, everyone else sees you're making a lot of money. So they come, it's just free markets.

1017
00:48:46,741 --> 00:48:50,021
Then more people say, well, I want to come sell my hot dog. I want to come sell my bandwidth.

1018
00:48:50,021 --> 00:48:54,781
And all of a sudden, like just bottoms up intelligence solves everything, man, this is,

1019
00:48:55,461 --> 00:49:00,081
yeah, this is cool. This is cool. Let's talk a little bit about, so, okay. So we're clearly

1020
00:49:00,081 --> 00:49:05,841
going to see people tapping into the regular internet. We're talking about Noster. So I see

1021
00:49:05,841 --> 00:49:07,381
with Nostre, this

1022
00:49:07,381 --> 00:49:09,821
proof of human and the

1023
00:49:09,821 --> 00:49:11,761
identity piece and

1024
00:49:11,761 --> 00:49:13,981
the private messaging

1025
00:49:13,981 --> 00:49:15,681
once you

1026
00:49:15,681 --> 00:49:17,921
are no longer near each other. I see all that.

1027
00:49:17,981 --> 00:49:19,901
But what about just like connectivity

1028
00:49:19,901 --> 00:49:20,981
to information?

1029
00:49:21,581 --> 00:49:23,901
Can you guys speak to like why Nostre

1030
00:49:23,901 --> 00:49:25,661
over the internet? Why the internet over

1031
00:49:25,661 --> 00:49:27,681
Nostre? What do you mean in what context?

1032
00:49:28,301 --> 00:49:29,801
Well, meaning

1033
00:49:29,801 --> 00:49:31,521
like if you

1034
00:49:31,521 --> 00:49:34,001
meet with Nostre

1035
00:49:34,001 --> 00:49:35,741
only, you could tap into

1036
00:49:35,741 --> 00:49:38,381
content and information without TCP IP.

1037
00:49:38,901 --> 00:49:39,101
Okay.

1038
00:49:39,321 --> 00:49:39,521
Right?

1039
00:49:39,981 --> 00:49:40,721
So is there a world...

1040
00:49:40,721 --> 00:49:41,241
Maybe that's all right.

1041
00:49:41,841 --> 00:49:46,601
Well, is there a world where that's giving unique advantages over the internet?

1042
00:49:48,001 --> 00:49:50,221
I mean, short term, I don't think it's going to be either or.

1043
00:49:50,281 --> 00:49:51,001
I think it's going to be both.

1044
00:49:51,001 --> 00:49:57,001
But to be clear, in the long run, the advantage of Nostra is just more choice on the back

1045
00:49:57,001 --> 00:49:57,461
end, right?

1046
00:49:57,841 --> 00:50:02,701
And the ability to potentially have services that are listed just with their in-pub.

1047
00:50:02,701 --> 00:50:05,621
So that means a lot more uncensorable or like free services.

1048
00:50:05,801 --> 00:50:09,481
I think that's probably the world we're headed like on a decade plus or maybe multi-decade

1049
00:50:09,481 --> 00:50:10,081
time horizon.

1050
00:50:10,361 --> 00:50:11,721
But I think in the short run, we'll do both.

1051
00:50:11,801 --> 00:50:15,761
You'll connect to like the traditional, the old world internet is not going to die overnight.

1052
00:50:15,861 --> 00:50:17,201
It's going to be a multi-decade long thing.

1053
00:50:17,681 --> 00:50:21,161
And yeah, I mean, if you want to tap in and use, you know, Twitter or the legacy services,

1054
00:50:21,321 --> 00:50:21,821
go for it.

1055
00:50:22,041 --> 00:50:25,421
But in the meanwhile, I think you'll also see like every service you could access on

1056
00:50:25,421 --> 00:50:30,461
the internet and plus all kinds of wild ones also popping up just within pubs, which is

1057
00:50:30,461 --> 00:50:36,821
also super important because, you know, as the old internet, like we've talked in the past,

1058
00:50:36,881 --> 00:50:40,381
the old internet is going to drown and die with AI spam. Well, now we're watching this week,

1059
00:50:40,421 --> 00:50:45,581
like they're requiring KYC to like access like basic news services. Now, like the old internet

1060
00:50:45,581 --> 00:50:50,481
is kind of fucked. And so I think increasingly the more pressure is put onto like ID people in

1061
00:50:50,481 --> 00:50:54,421
the name of terrorism or child safety or whatever, whatever they're wrapping it up with this week,

1062
00:50:54,481 --> 00:50:58,161
the more people start looking for the alternative services, the alternative services get better.

1063
00:50:58,161 --> 00:51:01,981
But I don't think it's either or short term, but long run, I'm bullish on impups.

1064
00:51:03,501 --> 00:51:05,181
And I think it isn't Cloudflare.

1065
00:51:05,401 --> 00:51:11,941
I thought I heard that Cloudflare has a new type of service for who they allow to crawl stuff.

1066
00:51:12,581 --> 00:51:14,841
That they're kind of like a paper crawl or something.

1067
00:51:15,181 --> 00:51:16,061
They talk about it.

1068
00:51:16,061 --> 00:51:22,481
They're kind of throttling some of the, because of a lot of the value of crawling for AI training.

1069
00:51:22,481 --> 00:51:26,601
so they're kind of throttling that or sort of creating a little bit of a market between

1070
00:51:26,601 --> 00:51:32,841
i think content owners and crawlers who desire to crawl that content um i haven't said it

1071
00:51:32,841 --> 00:51:38,541
carefully but it feels like it's kind of that old style of like ip address uh you know addressing

1072
00:51:38,541 --> 00:51:43,781
of content whereas npubs could be like the new way that we address content just a whole new

1073
00:51:43,781 --> 00:51:49,241
ecosystem could be built to have a lot fewer control points around it we have a few audience

1074
00:51:49,241 --> 00:51:51,421
questions, so let's go through those. One was

1075
00:51:51,421 --> 00:51:53,181
from early on, but let's just address it.

1076
00:51:53,261 --> 00:51:55,321
Austin asked, did you just say Elon?

1077
00:51:55,581 --> 00:51:57,041
DK is walking with Elon

1078
00:51:57,041 --> 00:51:59,241
and he's not a Bitcoin

1079
00:51:59,241 --> 00:52:00,001
maxi yet.

1080
00:52:01,801 --> 00:52:03,221
Apologies for my pronunciation,

1081
00:52:03,801 --> 00:52:04,721
but I said Elad

1082
00:52:04,721 --> 00:52:05,401
Gil.

1083
00:52:07,701 --> 00:52:08,541
Not Elon.

1084
00:52:10,041 --> 00:52:10,601
But I'm not sure.

1085
00:52:10,981 --> 00:52:12,641
Is Elon a Bitcoin maxi yet?

1086
00:52:13,161 --> 00:52:15,161
He's not a Bitcoin maxi, but I think

1087
00:52:15,161 --> 00:52:16,701
he gets the value proposition at Bitcoin.

1088
00:52:16,701 --> 00:52:19,741
he just needs to get on

1089
00:52:19,741 --> 00:52:20,541
BitChat with DK

1090
00:52:20,541 --> 00:52:20,861
and then

1091
00:52:20,861 --> 00:52:25,381
Deanna asks

1092
00:52:25,381 --> 00:52:27,901
isn't there a layer of anonymity

1093
00:52:27,901 --> 00:52:29,961
with the favoriting feature

1094
00:52:29,961 --> 00:52:31,641
in new purple release

1095
00:52:31,641 --> 00:52:33,761
which is the latest BitChat release

1096
00:52:33,761 --> 00:52:34,221
from today

1097
00:52:34,221 --> 00:52:35,861
and well

1098
00:52:35,861 --> 00:52:37,581
I mean

1099
00:52:37,581 --> 00:52:39,881
well let's walk through

1100
00:52:39,881 --> 00:52:40,181
what I mean

1101
00:52:40,181 --> 00:52:41,421
when you're on BitChat

1102
00:52:41,421 --> 00:52:43,001
you start off anonymous

1103
00:52:43,001 --> 00:52:44,241
it gives you some like

1104
00:52:44,241 --> 00:52:44,681
you know

1105
00:52:44,681 --> 00:52:46,381
anon 6506 or whatever

1106
00:52:46,381 --> 00:52:50,221
You can change the name to your own NIMH or your actual name or whatever.

1107
00:52:52,321 --> 00:52:53,801
So you can stay anonymous.

1108
00:52:54,581 --> 00:53:01,381
And then if I then connected with Max in real life, I mean, we would see each other, chat with each other.

1109
00:53:01,481 --> 00:53:02,581
We could favorite each other.

1110
00:53:03,901 --> 00:53:06,841
Still don't necessarily know our real name or identity.

1111
00:53:07,701 --> 00:53:09,941
So you can stay as anonymous as you want.

1112
00:53:10,361 --> 00:53:10,461
Yeah.

1113
00:53:10,981 --> 00:53:11,221
Yeah.

1114
00:53:11,321 --> 00:53:13,121
You can sort of, you choose what you reveal.

1115
00:53:13,541 --> 00:53:13,701
Yeah.

1116
00:53:13,701 --> 00:53:21,261
I think what's also interesting in that, so we all, you know, in the office without doxing anyone, changed to our preferred pseudonyms.

1117
00:53:21,261 --> 00:53:24,421
So it was kind of easy to figure out who Moneyball is, as an example.

1118
00:53:25,461 --> 00:53:40,581
However, I do imagine, I mean, one tricky thing that I can imagine here is, imagine you're like at a festival or something where there's like, potentially, like, potential adversaries.

1119
00:53:40,581 --> 00:53:43,621
and imagine I'm like, oh, I think this is Moneyball

1120
00:53:43,621 --> 00:53:44,981
and there's another Moneyball

1121
00:53:44,981 --> 00:53:47,081
and I accidentally friend the wrong Moneyball.

1122
00:53:47,721 --> 00:53:49,261
I guess in theory, if we're right next to each other

1123
00:53:49,261 --> 00:53:50,481
and we're checking the PGP key

1124
00:53:50,481 --> 00:53:52,801
or whatever it is, the fingerprint, that's solved.

1125
00:53:53,201 --> 00:53:55,541
But imagine I'm just like, I'm a normie

1126
00:53:55,541 --> 00:53:59,001
that is acquiring honey.

1127
00:53:59,001 --> 00:54:01,841
Well, that's why we chatted a little bit about this,

1128
00:54:01,901 --> 00:54:05,841
but I think there could be design improvements

1129
00:54:05,841 --> 00:54:07,701
on the fingerprinting.

1130
00:54:07,761 --> 00:54:07,921
Yeah.

1131
00:54:07,921 --> 00:54:10,561
Because right now it's very similar to Signal.

1132
00:54:11,021 --> 00:54:12,921
And even most Signal users, I think,

1133
00:54:13,021 --> 00:54:14,361
either aren't even aware of this.

1134
00:54:14,441 --> 00:54:16,501
It's kind of buried and it's pretty nerdy.

1135
00:54:16,641 --> 00:54:18,401
It's very cryptography heavy and stuff.

1136
00:54:19,041 --> 00:54:22,701
So is there a better design

1137
00:54:22,701 --> 00:54:24,461
where it's integrated into the favoriting

1138
00:54:24,461 --> 00:54:27,861
and just presented as a more human fun way?

1139
00:54:28,101 --> 00:54:28,321
Yeah.

1140
00:54:28,541 --> 00:54:32,521
And you still might have to verify these codes or whatever,

1141
00:54:32,721 --> 00:54:36,141
but I think it could use some design work.

1142
00:54:36,141 --> 00:54:43,761
So I shared that idea with folks planning the Bitcoin design week in September and they agreed that's a good idea.

1143
00:54:43,881 --> 00:54:46,041
So that can be like a design exploration we do there.

1144
00:54:46,261 --> 00:54:48,781
Well, and the other thing I was going to say is like, you know, another solution.

1145
00:54:48,881 --> 00:54:53,601
So if you want to have another NIM or be anonymous, then like, yes, that's a different field.

1146
00:54:53,861 --> 00:54:58,461
But again, let's say I want on BitChat to be, you know, whatever max that I am on Primal.

1147
00:54:58,821 --> 00:55:05,701
It would be really nice if they're an easy way just to like link up and like step one, borrow my NIP5 identifier from Primal.

1148
00:55:05,701 --> 00:55:08,901
So I think I'm using, I was using Pile, but I'm using Nostro.com.

1149
00:55:08,981 --> 00:55:10,361
So like easily just like transfer that.

1150
00:55:10,841 --> 00:55:18,481
And then eventually, you know, DK come in with your, you know, if I own namespace on Bitcoin, like be able to layer it into that.

1151
00:55:18,601 --> 00:55:21,621
Like I think in the long run, like that would be the best option still.

1152
00:55:22,501 --> 00:55:29,281
Right now, if I understand when I've, I've used BitChat once at PB and I was able to change my name to DK.

1153
00:55:29,281 --> 00:55:34,881
So is that a unique name within that particular chat mesh?

1154
00:55:35,121 --> 00:55:37,281
Or is that like you could have conflicting names?

1155
00:55:37,481 --> 00:55:39,061
Well, I'm assuming you could have conflicting names.

1156
00:55:39,161 --> 00:55:39,921
It's an interesting question.

1157
00:55:40,061 --> 00:55:42,501
Maybe it is block, but I'm operating in the assumption

1158
00:55:42,501 --> 00:55:44,861
that I could try and like fool people by being DK.

1159
00:55:45,161 --> 00:55:46,081
Yeah, I haven't tested it.

1160
00:55:46,281 --> 00:55:48,261
I think you could conflict right now.

1161
00:55:48,481 --> 00:55:52,241
And then, you know, you could imagine adding code

1162
00:55:52,241 --> 00:55:56,701
to make it not conflict within that particular mesh network.

1163
00:55:56,701 --> 00:56:01,601
the Nostre linking sounds kind of cool

1164
00:56:01,601 --> 00:56:04,601
because you could link to a Nostre but not make it browsable

1165
00:56:04,601 --> 00:56:09,421
but I could selectively reveal my Nostre connection

1166
00:56:09,421 --> 00:56:11,101
so if you're looking for DK

1167
00:56:11,101 --> 00:56:13,181
and there's five people who claim to be DK

1168
00:56:13,181 --> 00:56:17,261
I've signed with my Nostre private key

1169
00:56:17,261 --> 00:56:20,681
you can see that this is the one that attaches to the DK

1170
00:56:20,681 --> 00:56:21,621
that you know from Nostre

1171
00:56:21,621 --> 00:56:22,641
yeah that's a good idea

1172
00:56:22,641 --> 00:56:26,601
apologies if I'm pronouncing your name wrong

1173
00:56:26,601 --> 00:56:28,421
but Diana or Deanna,

1174
00:56:28,961 --> 00:56:32,881
she says that was related to the NPUB discussion

1175
00:56:32,881 --> 00:56:36,561
and why not connect to my own versus one created in BitChat,

1176
00:56:36,681 --> 00:56:38,781
though I still don't know how this works yet.

1177
00:56:39,581 --> 00:56:41,561
So I think we're saying the same thing.

1178
00:56:41,561 --> 00:56:44,321
I think you sort of spoke to that, DK.

1179
00:56:46,041 --> 00:56:47,021
We hope soon.

1180
00:56:48,121 --> 00:56:49,361
Yeah, but super exciting.

1181
00:56:49,721 --> 00:56:52,121
Let's talk a little bit more about payments.

1182
00:56:52,501 --> 00:56:56,161
Actually, I wanted to say for Bitcoin Design Week,

1183
00:56:56,601 --> 00:57:01,741
I think we should explore not just that one feature within BitChat.

1184
00:57:01,881 --> 00:57:08,281
I could see an entire day or session or track covering BitChat design.

1185
00:57:08,861 --> 00:57:08,981
Yeah.

1186
00:57:09,561 --> 00:57:17,521
And because there's so many positive implications, not only for Nostra, but for Bitcoin and payments and everything we just talked about.

1187
00:57:17,641 --> 00:57:21,941
I think it's very on point for Bitcoin design week.

1188
00:57:22,341 --> 00:57:22,861
Yeah, I agree.

1189
00:57:22,961 --> 00:57:23,941
I'll be following up on that.

1190
00:57:23,941 --> 00:57:24,681
I love it.

1191
00:57:24,681 --> 00:57:28,881
But before we jump into the payments stuff, I just, I wanted to just touch one more. I mean,

1192
00:57:29,341 --> 00:57:34,921
I do think it's very rare to get like any kind of breakout, like the hardest thing in the world of,

1193
00:57:35,681 --> 00:57:38,861
as we've talked about many times in the show, if you're releasing products or content or whatever,

1194
00:57:38,961 --> 00:57:42,261
like attention, attention is a scarce resource. So the fact that there's already over a hundred

1195
00:57:42,261 --> 00:57:47,401
thousand downloads for BitChad is awesome and like very something precious. One question,

1196
00:57:48,281 --> 00:57:54,121
I still don't know if I fully understand. DK, you hypothesized that the reason Russia and Ukraine

1197
00:57:54,121 --> 00:57:58,761
might be the other big areas is because of dense apartments.

1198
00:57:59,421 --> 00:58:01,441
But to be clear, there's dense apartments all over the world.

1199
00:58:01,581 --> 00:58:02,661
There's dense apartments in Asia.

1200
00:58:02,821 --> 00:58:03,861
There's dense apartments in New York City.

1201
00:58:04,041 --> 00:58:05,701
And maybe that's where the US is.

1202
00:58:06,341 --> 00:58:08,121
If you guys, do you all have any other hypotheses

1203
00:58:08,121 --> 00:58:09,441
on why this is popping off there?

1204
00:58:09,501 --> 00:58:11,201
Do you think it's actually more of a freedom,

1205
00:58:11,501 --> 00:58:13,061
like people really need it?

1206
00:58:13,061 --> 00:58:15,021
Or is there another reason that culturally

1207
00:58:15,021 --> 00:58:16,761
they've been early adopters?

1208
00:58:18,081 --> 00:58:18,441
Unclear.

1209
00:58:19,101 --> 00:58:22,121
I mean, obviously Jack promoting it.

1210
00:58:22,121 --> 00:58:25,721
he's way more prominent than

1211
00:58:25,721 --> 00:58:29,841
I don't even know who created Fireside or Gotenna

1212
00:58:29,841 --> 00:58:32,621
or any of these things, but he has a way bigger reach.

1213
00:58:33,021 --> 00:58:35,881
It could be that just simply better marketing.

1214
00:58:36,121 --> 00:58:37,801
It could be, but Jack's also huge in Japan.

1215
00:58:38,221 --> 00:58:42,061
I guess my question is, why Russia and Ukraine are not?

1216
00:58:43,541 --> 00:58:44,381
Yeah, unclear.

1217
00:58:46,361 --> 00:58:49,421
I wanted to check on the stats that we saw.

1218
00:58:49,581 --> 00:58:51,101
I think somebody shared it in our chat.

1219
00:58:52,121 --> 00:58:53,561
where Russia was number one.

1220
00:58:53,701 --> 00:58:54,381
Was that in,

1221
00:58:55,001 --> 00:58:56,241
that was iOS downloads

1222
00:58:56,241 --> 00:58:57,821
or that was kind of a crossfit chat?

1223
00:58:58,981 --> 00:58:59,101
Well,

1224
00:58:59,161 --> 00:59:01,281
it's only iOS.

1225
00:59:02,721 --> 00:59:04,021
It's not in the Play Store yet.

1226
00:59:04,041 --> 00:59:04,341
It doesn't.

1227
00:59:04,661 --> 00:59:04,801
Well,

1228
00:59:04,861 --> 00:59:07,261
there's a quote fake.

1229
00:59:07,521 --> 00:59:09,141
There's someone not named Callie

1230
00:59:09,141 --> 00:59:10,761
who put it in the Play Store

1231
00:59:10,761 --> 00:59:11,901
before him.

1232
00:59:13,461 --> 00:59:14,281
So the only people running

1233
00:59:14,281 --> 00:59:15,081
an Android right now

1234
00:59:15,081 --> 00:59:16,181
is if you go to GitHub,

1235
00:59:16,641 --> 00:59:17,281
build it yourself,

1236
00:59:17,661 --> 00:59:18,261
sideload it,

1237
00:59:18,881 --> 00:59:20,021
which is probably a few people,

1238
00:59:20,241 --> 00:59:21,801
but it's primarily

1239
00:59:21,801 --> 00:59:23,961
iPhone. And I'm not sure if Russia, I think

1240
00:59:23,961 --> 00:59:25,981
US was still number one. I mean, they

1241
00:59:25,981 --> 00:59:26,661
were like close.

1242
00:59:28,521 --> 00:59:30,081
Okay, I thought Russia

1243
00:59:30,081 --> 00:59:31,501
was the

1244
00:59:31,501 --> 00:59:33,881
largest bar in the chart that I saw.

1245
00:59:34,181 --> 00:59:36,101
It could have been. I mean, US was certainly up there

1246
00:59:36,101 --> 00:59:36,281
too.

1247
00:59:37,721 --> 00:59:40,121
I don't know. I mean, it could be

1248
00:59:40,121 --> 00:59:41,161
a freedom issue.

1249
00:59:41,941 --> 00:59:43,441
Sometimes there's like some

1250
00:59:43,441 --> 00:59:45,521
strange thing that you can't even know.

1251
00:59:45,701 --> 00:59:47,961
Maybe we think of data

1252
00:59:47,961 --> 00:59:49,801
plans as free, but maybe certain telcos

1253
00:59:49,801 --> 00:59:55,701
like in Russia just don't have free data plans and messaging still has some other data cost to

1254
00:59:55,701 --> 01:00:00,441
it, but people don't like to endure. So, you know, I think there's, there's just like people

1255
01:00:00,441 --> 01:00:05,181
are in very different contexts that I think, unless you really kind of do a deeper study of

1256
01:00:05,181 --> 01:00:09,941
it, I think it's hard to. That's a good hypothesis. It's worth the deeper study though, I think,

1257
01:00:09,981 --> 01:00:14,081
right? Yeah. Because we, we do, I mean, there's the lingering question. This has been tried before.

1258
01:00:14,481 --> 01:00:19,221
Why now? Why, why is there more hype now? And also is, is it going to, is the hype going to die?

1259
01:00:19,221 --> 01:00:39,981
Like it is, it's a risky app in the sense that like by the end of the year, maybe everyone's sort of forgotten about it that, you know, no one's downloading BitChat anymore. No one's using it because it still didn't take off. There's that risk still. So, you know, so it, it, it, it does bear investigation. Why is it taking off in Ukraine and Russia?

1260
01:00:39,981 --> 01:00:58,301
And that can suggest what priorities should be placed in both features and app development, but also how it's marketed, how it's discussed, how promoters of it, people who are excited about it want to talk about it.

1261
01:00:58,301 --> 01:00:59,821
or how complimentary apps are built.

1262
01:01:00,201 --> 01:01:02,521
So one thing, I've made this call on the show before,

1263
01:01:02,581 --> 01:01:03,301
but I want to make it again

1264
01:01:03,301 --> 01:01:04,721
because I think it's very timely right now.

1265
01:01:05,081 --> 01:01:08,341
One of the companies I would love to fund out of Hivemind

1266
01:01:08,341 --> 01:01:12,641
is someone working on basically building

1267
01:01:12,641 --> 01:01:14,921
and monetizing a marketplace for bandwidth.

1268
01:01:15,041 --> 01:01:16,261
So healing without the shit coin.

1269
01:01:16,621 --> 01:01:19,721
If ever there were a time to be exploring that idea heavily,

1270
01:01:19,941 --> 01:01:20,821
now is that time.

1271
01:01:21,121 --> 01:01:22,581
So if there's someone listening to the show

1272
01:01:22,581 --> 01:01:25,141
or you know someone who is really interested

1273
01:01:25,141 --> 01:01:31,081
figuring out how to enable these long tail of entrepreneurs to sell hot dogs, metaphorically,

1274
01:01:31,501 --> 01:01:35,421
to sell bandwidth and make money on it. I am extremely interested and would love to fund that

1275
01:01:35,421 --> 01:01:39,841
idea. Yeah, I totally agree. I agree. I think that's a great one. And I also want to point

1276
01:01:39,841 --> 01:01:44,701
out your other one that you've sort of been beating the drum on, this kind of local bitcoins

1277
01:01:44,701 --> 01:01:52,581
idea. It feels like that's one whose time has come. And it may be that BitChat has enough early

1278
01:01:52,581 --> 01:01:57,261
traction that there could be a killer app that sort of rides on those rails that's actually

1279
01:01:57,261 --> 01:02:03,541
kind of more gives more durability or permanence to the use case of bitchat and i think the local

1280
01:02:03,541 --> 01:02:10,941
bitcoin one strikes me as interesting because again you know we have we have sort of prior art

1281
01:02:10,941 --> 01:02:15,701
that this is interesting and useful and we just have like some problems with how the execution

1282
01:02:15,701 --> 01:02:20,481
and regulatory thing works and some of that is fixed by the chat rails so i think like one one

1283
01:02:20,481 --> 01:02:26,181
way to kind of help this whole effort is find those killer apps. And that seems like it could

1284
01:02:26,181 --> 01:02:31,021
be a killer app to me. So three ideas I want to publicly say that I'm very interested in funding

1285
01:02:31,021 --> 01:02:34,721
right now. Number one is figure out how to monetize bandwidth in a marketplace. Number two,

1286
01:02:34,801 --> 01:02:38,801
local Bitcoins. Number three, piggybacking on the other idea, which I've been obsessed with,

1287
01:02:38,841 --> 01:02:44,701
we've all been chatting about now for months, is how to build the infrastructure, likely with solar

1288
01:02:44,701 --> 01:02:49,941
and batteries, which is my other general obsession in the world right now, so that you could basically

1289
01:02:49,941 --> 01:02:53,921
fund and deploy hotspots

1290
01:02:53,921 --> 01:02:55,061
all over the world

1291
01:02:55,061 --> 01:02:56,781
that are completely off-grid.

1292
01:02:57,161 --> 01:02:57,801
I think there's something

1293
01:02:57,801 --> 01:02:58,661
really big in there too,

1294
01:02:58,761 --> 01:02:59,361
which kind of relates

1295
01:02:59,361 --> 01:02:59,921
to the first idea,

1296
01:03:00,001 --> 01:03:00,581
so maybe they're related.

1297
01:03:00,601 --> 01:03:01,001
With battery?

1298
01:03:01,361 --> 01:03:01,581
Yeah.

1299
01:03:02,081 --> 01:03:02,981
Completely off-grid.

1300
01:03:04,021 --> 01:03:05,141
Rom just posted,

1301
01:03:05,281 --> 01:03:07,261
Apple has contact key verification

1302
01:03:07,261 --> 01:03:07,681
in E.

1303
01:03:08,701 --> 01:03:09,381
There's a link.

1304
01:03:10,061 --> 01:03:11,101
So we can check that out later.

1305
01:03:11,341 --> 01:03:11,541
Yeah.

1306
01:03:11,941 --> 01:03:12,321
Thanks, Rom.

1307
01:03:12,961 --> 01:03:14,261
Contact key verification?

1308
01:03:14,581 --> 01:03:16,581
That's to verify that a key

1309
01:03:16,581 --> 01:03:18,041
is related to somebody

1310
01:03:18,041 --> 01:03:18,841
you're in contact with?

1311
01:03:19,941 --> 01:03:20,521
I guess.

1312
01:03:20,721 --> 01:03:21,001
Is it?

1313
01:03:21,661 --> 01:03:23,981
Oh, I thought you guys had more context.

1314
01:03:24,081 --> 01:03:25,801
I can't click on the link right now.

1315
01:03:25,801 --> 01:03:29,821
Yeah, Rom, maybe you can specify exactly what you mean with that, but I think so.

1316
01:03:30,561 --> 01:03:32,661
I want to talk a little more about payments here.

1317
01:03:33,681 --> 01:03:38,201
So there's different situations where you want to do payments.

1318
01:03:38,681 --> 01:03:42,741
One in which you're paying a merchant nearby.

1319
01:03:43,181 --> 01:03:44,801
They might have an internet connection.

1320
01:03:44,801 --> 01:04:08,141
So there it actually works quite well, even if you don't have an internet connection or you do, but you don't want to use it. Like if it's a privacy sensitive purchase, you can just use BitChat and Bitcoin, pay the merchant and they have the internet connection to finalize the payment.

1321
01:04:08,141 --> 01:04:12,961
And it doesn't matter whether you're using eCash or Lightning or whatever.

1322
01:04:13,441 --> 01:04:16,981
To finalize a payment in Bitcoin, you have to have an internet connection.

1323
01:04:17,281 --> 01:04:18,441
The merchant can provide that.

1324
01:04:19,201 --> 01:04:20,481
So either could work.

1325
01:04:22,041 --> 01:04:26,841
Now, there's also purely offline transactions.

1326
01:04:28,161 --> 01:04:30,981
And there you do have some trust.

1327
01:04:30,981 --> 01:04:32,841
but like with eCash

1328
01:04:32,841 --> 01:04:34,261
like if I want to pay

1329
01:04:34,261 --> 01:04:35,861
let's say

1330
01:04:35,861 --> 01:04:38,381
well let's say it's like a farmer's market

1331
01:04:38,381 --> 01:04:40,781
and every week I go and buy

1332
01:04:40,781 --> 01:04:42,681
you know fresh fish from

1333
01:04:42,681 --> 01:04:44,181
Max so I'm like a

1334
01:04:44,181 --> 01:04:46,261
trusted customer Max

1335
01:04:46,261 --> 01:04:47,081
knows I'm there

1336
01:04:47,081 --> 01:04:48,161
he needs it to slap me

1337
01:04:48,161 --> 01:04:52,061
Max the fishmonger

1338
01:04:52,061 --> 01:04:54,681
people have to use BitChat to really understand

1339
01:04:54,681 --> 01:04:56,881
that joke but yes you can slap people

1340
01:04:56,881 --> 01:04:58,081
with fish in

1341
01:04:58,081 --> 01:04:59,021
BitChat

1342
01:04:59,021 --> 01:05:02,541
so there's a trusted relationship

1343
01:05:02,541 --> 01:05:04,141
like I'm a recurring customer

1344
01:05:04,141 --> 01:05:06,021
I successfully

1345
01:05:06,021 --> 01:05:07,561
pay every week

1346
01:05:07,561 --> 01:05:10,441
so if Max

1347
01:05:10,441 --> 01:05:12,081
does not have an internet connection

1348
01:05:12,081 --> 01:05:14,581
nor do I and I pay him

1349
01:05:14,581 --> 01:05:16,381
you know $20 worth

1350
01:05:16,381 --> 01:05:17,181
of Bitcoin

1351
01:05:17,181 --> 01:05:20,401
and he doesn't

1352
01:05:20,401 --> 01:05:21,941
it actually doesn't get settled

1353
01:05:21,941 --> 01:05:24,541
until the end of the day

1354
01:05:24,541 --> 01:05:25,741
when you regain internet

1355
01:05:25,741 --> 01:05:28,501
you will

1356
01:05:28,501 --> 01:05:34,361
receive that money. The only way you wouldn't is if I double spend it, which I could do, but you

1357
01:05:34,361 --> 01:05:39,321
know, A, I have to go out of my way. I have to like change the code or download a nefarious app

1358
01:05:39,321 --> 01:05:44,841
intentionally trying to steal people's money. Burn all your trust with me. Burn all that. Yeah.

1359
01:05:44,981 --> 01:05:49,601
So in, in there's many social situations where you're going to, you're going to trust another

1360
01:05:49,601 --> 01:05:53,621
if you're splitting a dinner bill with, with friends or whatever, there's lots of different

1361
01:05:53,621 --> 01:05:57,721
relationships where it's trusted and you can get away with that.

1362
01:05:58,421 --> 01:06:01,661
So if you are in a situation where you don't have internet

1363
01:06:01,661 --> 01:06:05,781
due to being out in the middle of nowhere, a disaster

1364
01:06:05,781 --> 01:06:09,841
situation, or if you want ultimate

1365
01:06:09,841 --> 01:06:13,741
privacy, then you can do

1366
01:06:13,741 --> 01:06:14,961
purchases that way as well.

1367
01:06:16,161 --> 01:06:20,061
Yeah, I think it's super cool. I mean, one other kind of idea that's coming to mind

1368
01:06:20,061 --> 01:06:23,941
and just real talk or real time and real talk is,

1369
01:06:24,141 --> 01:06:26,401
you know, I've been really fascinated.

1370
01:06:26,561 --> 01:06:28,621
I have a buddy who is into Bitcoin,

1371
01:06:29,001 --> 01:06:31,181
but is more in this kind of like,

1372
01:06:31,481 --> 01:06:34,241
I would say sort of solar punk alternative currency,

1373
01:06:34,361 --> 01:06:35,461
local currency movement.

1374
01:06:35,801 --> 01:06:36,621
He likes Bitcoin,

1375
01:06:37,141 --> 01:06:39,101
but we've been talking about this idea for,

1376
01:06:39,281 --> 01:06:40,701
I don't know, seven years now.

1377
01:06:41,481 --> 01:06:43,361
Actually, this is the guy I did the sort of Bitcoin distribution

1378
01:06:43,361 --> 01:06:45,021
within Mexico a long time ago.

1379
01:06:45,381 --> 01:06:47,121
We've been talking about is,

1380
01:06:47,121 --> 01:06:51,381
could you have sort of basically like Bitcoin back to local currencies? And so we're already

1381
01:06:51,381 --> 01:06:55,261
starting to see, I think eventually we'll see formally Bitcoin back dollars. We're already

1382
01:06:55,261 --> 01:06:59,261
seeing informally Bitcoin back dollars through strategy and I think potentially other stable

1383
01:06:59,261 --> 01:07:04,861
coins. But I wonder if there's like a cool, I don't know what the killer feature is here,

1384
01:07:04,901 --> 01:07:08,981
but some cool idea space where it's like, maybe it's a bit bit chat, but if we're all in the same

1385
01:07:08,981 --> 01:07:14,141
local community, like in preceding Bitcoin or whatever at El Zante, you know, the farmer's

1386
01:07:14,141 --> 01:07:19,481
market, if you could have like, if there are some advantages to having a local currency that you can

1387
01:07:19,481 --> 01:07:24,181
only use if you're there within the range and the Bluetooth network, it maybe has some additional

1388
01:07:24,181 --> 01:07:30,001
kicker features. Like maybe there's, I don't know, like some, I'm not sure exactly what it is, but

1389
01:07:30,001 --> 01:07:38,301
like I just had this vision of different countries or locales backing with Bitcoin, but still being

1390
01:07:38,301 --> 01:07:43,621
able to like adjust their currency rate or features. Like, oh, you can only use this to

1391
01:07:43,621 --> 01:07:47,561
get a 10% discount in our communities. If you buy with Bitcoin, it's $10. If you buy with

1392
01:07:47,561 --> 01:07:50,921
PBJ or El Zante currency, you get a

1393
01:07:50,921 --> 01:07:55,521
local discount to encourage more people to move there or something like that. So you still have levers

1394
01:07:55,521 --> 01:07:59,541
you can pull as a government or as a local community or

1395
01:07:59,541 --> 01:08:03,481
body. I'm not sure, but I think there's some

1396
01:08:03,481 --> 01:08:05,361
idea space there that's cool and worth exploring.

1397
01:08:06,921 --> 01:08:09,721
Yeah, it could be interesting to explore. I still

1398
01:08:09,721 --> 01:08:13,741
like inflation is the only benefit I see.

1399
01:08:14,481 --> 01:08:17,781
And that gets an interesting economics discussion.

1400
01:08:18,201 --> 01:08:20,221
And, you know, you can certainly make cases

1401
01:08:20,221 --> 01:08:21,721
for benefits of being able to

1402
01:08:22,361 --> 01:08:23,941
have inflation at certain points.

1403
01:08:24,081 --> 01:08:25,581
Have inflation and have humans

1404
01:08:25,581 --> 01:08:27,961
like for a local situation

1405
01:08:27,961 --> 01:08:30,021
or some subset of the population

1406
01:08:30,021 --> 01:08:33,141
like be able to intervene.

1407
01:08:33,541 --> 01:08:33,761
Yeah.

1408
01:08:33,881 --> 01:08:35,721
Whereas with Bitcoin, you can't,

1409
01:08:35,721 --> 01:08:39,161
like no local constituent can like intervene.

1410
01:08:39,161 --> 01:09:07,261
Well, I mean, to be clear, one idea that's coming to mind is imagine you're in a small community and you're like, look, we want to encourage people to invest in the community, not just with their capital, but live here. And so if you're paying with our local currency, you can only do it over whatever the Bluetooth network and you get whatever, a third off of whatever you buy in the community. But it literally only works if you're double starred in our local community. And if you're not, you have to pay the full price of Bitcoin.

1411
01:09:07,261 --> 01:09:08,601
so it's almost like

1412
01:09:08,601 --> 01:09:09,001
I don't know

1413
01:09:09,001 --> 01:09:10,541
like a way for people to

1414
01:09:10,541 --> 01:09:11,921
I don't know

1415
01:09:11,921 --> 01:09:12,921
incentivize like

1416
01:09:12,921 --> 01:09:14,441
time or like

1417
01:09:14,441 --> 01:09:15,341
energy investment

1418
01:09:15,341 --> 01:09:16,481
in addition to just

1419
01:09:16,481 --> 01:09:17,501
and yes

1420
01:09:17,501 --> 01:09:18,341
like obviously

1421
01:09:18,341 --> 01:09:19,421
but don't you

1422
01:09:19,421 --> 01:09:20,061
just by

1423
01:09:20,061 --> 01:09:22,041
being on that

1424
01:09:22,041 --> 01:09:23,041
local mesh network

1425
01:09:23,041 --> 01:09:24,201
or double starred

1426
01:09:24,201 --> 01:09:24,521
or whatever

1427
01:09:24,521 --> 01:09:24,741
doesn't

1428
01:09:24,741 --> 01:09:25,481
yeah that's a good point

1429
01:09:25,481 --> 01:09:27,441
deliver the value

1430
01:09:27,441 --> 01:09:28,581
that the local community

1431
01:09:28,581 --> 01:09:29,261
is seeking

1432
01:09:29,261 --> 01:09:39,532
yeah that a fair point so maybe just a double star there something more recurrence recurrence I think right Like somebody who lives there more permanently and has more recurring transactions

1433
01:09:39,752 --> 01:09:42,271
maybe more trusted, better contributor

1434
01:09:42,271 --> 01:09:43,912
versus somebody who happens to be,

1435
01:09:44,332 --> 01:09:45,452
maybe they're in for a vacation.

1436
01:09:46,152 --> 01:09:48,952
They are in the mesh in kind of local area,

1437
01:09:49,072 --> 01:09:51,972
but they're not as much of a permanent contributor.

1438
01:09:52,412 --> 01:09:54,731
Yeah, but I definitely see your point

1439
01:09:54,731 --> 01:09:56,592
that if you build up that reputation

1440
01:09:56,592 --> 01:09:58,112
or web of trust over time,

1441
01:09:58,112 --> 01:10:00,652
maybe if you're still paying in Bitcoin you don't actually need the currency

1442
01:10:00,652 --> 01:10:02,992
but there's still two price rates

1443
01:10:02,992 --> 01:10:04,932
there's like the people that live here and the people that don't

1444
01:10:04,932 --> 01:10:06,672
so Deanna asks

1445
01:10:06,672 --> 01:10:09,072
how you slap someone with a trout

1446
01:10:09,072 --> 01:10:10,271
on BitChat

1447
01:10:10,271 --> 01:10:12,112
and I'll answer that question

1448
01:10:12,112 --> 01:10:13,832
the important hard hitting questions

1449
01:10:13,832 --> 01:10:16,712
you have to tap on the person's name but not

1450
01:10:16,712 --> 01:10:18,492
at the top of the app

1451
01:10:18,492 --> 01:10:20,552
but like within the chat log

1452
01:10:20,552 --> 01:10:22,052
just tap on their name and then you get

1453
01:10:22,052 --> 01:10:24,092
a menu in which you can hug them

1454
01:10:24,092 --> 01:10:25,192
or slap them

1455
01:10:25,192 --> 01:10:27,332
there you go

1456
01:10:27,332 --> 01:10:33,192
Deanna also asks, how do you get the solar punk Dow crypto folks to get on the Bitcoin maxi train?

1457
01:10:34,252 --> 01:10:38,172
I mean, let's start by building in the market. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, winning in the market and

1458
01:10:38,172 --> 01:10:41,872
like, let's start by like leading by example, right? Like this is, this is my new obsessions

1459
01:10:41,872 --> 01:10:46,972
for those of you who aren't aware. We'll talk more about this in the future, but I am increasingly

1460
01:10:46,972 --> 01:10:51,352
thinking about eventually how do we get a terawatt scale grid completely off grid from the old grid

1461
01:10:51,352 --> 01:10:53,892
and all solar, all batteries.

1462
01:10:54,672 --> 01:10:57,352
And I mean, obviously that's like a long-term project,

1463
01:10:57,412 --> 01:10:58,112
but short-term project.

1464
01:10:58,252 --> 01:11:00,512
I mean, I already saw there's like a community north of here,

1465
01:11:00,892 --> 01:11:02,492
one of the more traditional, like,

1466
01:11:03,012 --> 01:11:06,432
stripey, crypto-y people who, you know,

1467
01:11:06,472 --> 01:11:07,792
obviously I disagree with all their crypto crap,

1468
01:11:07,872 --> 01:11:09,512
but they do have cool solar punk values

1469
01:11:09,512 --> 01:11:10,552
and they built, you know,

1470
01:11:10,892 --> 01:11:13,192
an off-grid solar-powered data center,

1471
01:11:13,271 --> 01:11:14,092
which I thought was awesome.

1472
01:11:14,452 --> 01:11:16,332
Now imagine if they also had a miner hooked up

1473
01:11:16,332 --> 01:11:18,032
or I don't know, they could get paid in Bitcoin,

1474
01:11:18,452 --> 01:11:20,811
you know, for people that want to plug into the cloud

1475
01:11:20,811 --> 01:11:21,252
they're building.

1476
01:11:21,352 --> 01:11:23,731
I don't know. I think it's probably one of the market.

1477
01:11:23,731 --> 01:11:26,552
Is that for like a personal use or that's like a commercial project?

1478
01:11:26,992 --> 01:11:28,872
I think they were just doing it as a proof of concept.

1479
01:11:29,792 --> 01:11:33,752
But again, I don't know what the answer.

1480
01:11:33,892 --> 01:11:38,771
A lot of this, it's very challenging in that there's been so much of a divide

1481
01:11:38,771 --> 01:11:42,072
between the crypto people and the Bitcoin people for so long.

1482
01:11:42,532 --> 01:11:44,412
I mean, I don't know if it's just like education,

1483
01:11:44,652 --> 01:11:47,052
but it'd be really cool to get those people to come to Presidio Bitcoin

1484
01:11:47,052 --> 01:11:48,692
and be like, we love your solar punk ethos.

1485
01:11:48,972 --> 01:11:50,252
We'd love to help you power with Bitcoin.

1486
01:11:50,252 --> 01:11:52,271
you don't need a token.

1487
01:11:52,552 --> 01:11:54,231
But to your point, maybe the answer is just

1488
01:11:54,231 --> 01:11:56,292
no one's going to pay with their trick coins because there's

1489
01:11:56,292 --> 01:11:58,311
no liquidity, but over time, they'll

1490
01:11:58,311 --> 01:12:00,052
just naturally adopt Bitcoin because that's what's won.

1491
01:12:00,372 --> 01:12:00,652
I don't know.

1492
01:12:01,892 --> 01:12:03,052
Can we talk about a few other things?

1493
01:12:03,472 --> 01:12:05,852
We got like 20 or so minutes left.

1494
01:12:06,092 --> 01:12:07,472
Oh shit, it's already 120. Wow.

1495
01:12:07,712 --> 01:12:07,872
Yeah.

1496
01:12:09,271 --> 01:12:11,792
Well, I think this one's super quick, but

1497
01:12:11,792 --> 01:12:14,231
multiple times this year, I've heard DK

1498
01:12:14,231 --> 01:12:16,632
say that there's in-kind redemptions

1499
01:12:16,632 --> 01:12:17,792
from the SEC.

1500
01:12:17,792 --> 01:12:19,912
Oh yeah. I think we hear this

1501
01:12:19,912 --> 01:12:21,252
like every other day from DK.

1502
01:12:21,412 --> 01:12:23,792
But now he can finally say this

1503
01:12:23,792 --> 01:12:24,692
with confidence.

1504
01:12:26,032 --> 01:12:26,731
And truth.

1505
01:12:27,292 --> 01:12:27,752
And truth.

1506
01:12:29,652 --> 01:12:31,612
I've been saying it with confidence the whole time.

1507
01:12:31,712 --> 01:12:32,052
Exactly.

1508
01:12:32,212 --> 01:12:33,092
That was actually true.

1509
01:12:33,092 --> 01:12:33,532
Exactly.

1510
01:12:34,252 --> 01:12:37,032
Yeah, so the SEC approved in-kind redemptions

1511
01:12:37,032 --> 01:12:38,432
for Bitcoin ETFs,

1512
01:12:38,472 --> 01:12:39,612
which is amazing news,

1513
01:12:39,771 --> 01:12:41,512
with the caveat

1514
01:12:41,512 --> 01:12:44,472
that it's only for accredited investors

1515
01:12:44,472 --> 01:12:45,672
or authorized participants.

1516
01:12:45,672 --> 01:12:46,532
Authorized participants.

1517
01:12:46,811 --> 01:12:47,752
Not accredited.

1518
01:12:47,792 --> 01:12:48,932
Okay, authorized participants,

1519
01:12:48,932 --> 01:12:57,311
which is what institutional funds yeah so the the my understanding is when um you know you've got a

1520
01:12:57,311 --> 01:13:03,532
like a an entity like a blackrock or a bitwise or somebody who is the issuer of the the etf or the

1521
01:13:03,532 --> 01:13:09,172
organizer the marketer of the etf they still have to work with you know somebody like a jane street

1522
01:13:09,172 --> 01:13:13,532
or citadel i think is in this business and they're in the business of being this authorized participant

1523
01:13:13,532 --> 01:13:29,592
And they help manage the liquidity of kind of how much capital needs to be available to be able to run all the transactions and not get slippage and kind of get good pricing, efficient pricing when moving between Bitcoin and cash.

1524
01:13:30,092 --> 01:13:40,472
And so this is really just allowing the authorized participants to be able to not have to keep getting back into cash, which means you end up tying up a lot of capital.

1525
01:13:40,472 --> 01:13:52,352
I've heard it can be of $100 million that has to be tied up in a given day in order to be able to just run the operations of an ETF.

1526
01:13:52,731 --> 01:13:59,731
And obviously, if you can make that number a lot smaller because you got a lot more efficiency there, then you sort of don't have to have that capital tied up.

1527
01:14:00,792 --> 01:14:02,472
So this is sort of...

1528
01:14:03,132 --> 01:14:05,192
Accredited investors do not have any changes.

1529
01:14:05,432 --> 01:14:06,672
Authorized participants have changes.

1530
01:14:06,832 --> 01:14:09,231
They're a very niche part of the market.

1531
01:14:09,231 --> 01:14:11,552
and they don't necessarily,

1532
01:14:12,372 --> 01:14:14,292
it doesn't imply that it will get to retail,

1533
01:14:14,412 --> 01:14:16,032
but I think without this step,

1534
01:14:16,332 --> 01:14:18,532
I think it would be hard to get to retail ever.

1535
01:14:18,912 --> 01:14:20,472
So I think this is like one step,

1536
01:14:20,652 --> 01:14:23,512
but not necessarily confirming that it gets to retail.

1537
01:14:24,172 --> 01:14:24,612
Okay.

1538
01:14:24,852 --> 01:14:28,212
It sounds like an even tinier step after that description.

1539
01:14:28,292 --> 01:14:29,632
Yeah, I'm less jazzed.

1540
01:14:30,231 --> 01:14:31,092
But nonetheless,

1541
01:14:32,592 --> 01:14:34,771
a tiny step in the right direction.

1542
01:14:34,792 --> 01:14:36,112
Well, it's necessary.

1543
01:14:36,392 --> 01:14:38,112
It's probably necessary, but not sufficient.

1544
01:14:38,412 --> 01:14:38,592
Yeah.

1545
01:14:38,592 --> 01:14:59,612
And the reason for people who didn't listen last week or haven't heard us talk about this, why does this matter? A risk with ETS is that they create a tax trap. So they are a really nice vehicle for a lot of folks to introduce themselves to Bitcoin and buy their first Bitcoin.

1546
01:14:59,612 --> 01:15:04,432
but as people who have been in Bitcoin for a while know

1547
01:15:04,432 --> 01:15:08,592
number goes up and so you buy some Bitcoin

1548
01:15:08,592 --> 01:15:12,372
before you know it, it maybe is 10x in value

1549
01:15:12,372 --> 01:15:17,092
so your cost basis can be like 10%

1550
01:15:17,092 --> 01:15:20,912
of the current value and if you

1551
01:15:20,912 --> 01:15:24,932
own Bitcoin and ETF and then later learn like four years later

1552
01:15:24,932 --> 01:15:28,832
oh I actually want to use Bitcoin, I want to be able to

1553
01:15:28,832 --> 01:15:30,692
to send it to people, buy things,

1554
01:15:31,572 --> 01:15:33,052
use a Bitcoin-backed loan

1555
01:15:33,052 --> 01:15:35,052
through something self-custodial like lava.

1556
01:15:35,712 --> 01:15:37,072
I need access to my Bitcoin.

1557
01:15:37,252 --> 01:15:38,452
Can't do that with an ETF.

1558
01:15:38,972 --> 01:15:40,392
But then you face the tax trap

1559
01:15:40,392 --> 01:15:44,012
because you would have to sell it,

1560
01:15:44,252 --> 01:15:45,311
sell the ETF shares

1561
01:15:45,311 --> 01:15:47,231
to then rebuy Bitcoin elsewhere

1562
01:15:47,231 --> 01:15:48,212
so that you can use Bitcoin.

1563
01:15:48,832 --> 01:15:50,912
And of course, that creates a massive barrier

1564
01:15:50,912 --> 01:15:53,912
if people are faced with an enormous tax bill.

1565
01:15:54,492 --> 01:15:56,692
So in-kind redemption for retail

1566
01:15:56,692 --> 01:15:58,132
would allow you to take the Bitcoin

1567
01:15:58,132 --> 01:16:03,892
out of the ETF, put it in your own wallet, use it, and not face that tax event.

1568
01:16:04,832 --> 01:16:05,472
It's good for freedom.

1569
01:16:06,132 --> 01:16:06,992
And I'm still bullish.

1570
01:16:06,992 --> 01:16:12,632
I think the movement by the SEC, by the way, I think the proposal came in January and it

1571
01:16:12,632 --> 01:16:15,052
was just approved on Thursday or Wednesday.

1572
01:16:16,472 --> 01:16:25,072
So I think a lot of Bitcoiners are very skeptical of the state and all of its imagination.

1573
01:16:25,311 --> 01:16:25,692
So am I.

1574
01:16:25,692 --> 01:16:32,392
but I'll say I don't think the state is as has like this long-term scheme to try to trap all the

1575
01:16:32,392 --> 01:16:37,811
Bitcoin yeah we think about that because we care about Bitcoin we think why would you ever sell

1576
01:16:37,811 --> 01:16:43,212
this why would you ever get rid of it but but the state and politics works on very short timeframes

1577
01:16:43,212 --> 01:16:48,452
compared to that like four-year cycles and stuff so I I actually don't think that there's like some

1578
01:16:48,452 --> 01:16:52,672
nefarious plan to try to capture all the Bitcoin not not to say you shouldn't be skeptical and

1579
01:16:52,672 --> 01:16:58,952
cautious about it but i i would hope that there is a day and i don't think there's a strong reason

1580
01:16:58,952 --> 01:17:06,472
not to a day that you could get from in kind to retail sorry from a retail etf to an in kind

1581
01:17:06,472 --> 01:17:13,231
redemption of the native underlying bitcoin as you can with like you know gold but but the actual

1582
01:17:13,231 --> 01:17:18,352
step you got to think about like how much extra work is required to do that like are you gonna

1583
01:17:18,352 --> 01:17:20,332
log into the same account where you

1584
01:17:20,332 --> 01:17:21,992
log in to

1585
01:17:21,992 --> 01:17:24,532
buy or sell an ETF and are you going to give it

1586
01:17:24,532 --> 01:17:26,492
like a cryptographic address

1587
01:17:26,492 --> 01:17:28,432
and are they going to call you up and

1588
01:17:28,432 --> 01:17:29,932
verify the numbers?

1589
01:17:30,412 --> 01:17:32,731
There's a bunch of infrastructure and process

1590
01:17:32,731 --> 01:17:34,512
that would have to be designed.

1591
01:17:36,072 --> 01:17:36,372
What is it?

1592
01:17:36,811 --> 01:17:37,811
Bitkey integration.

1593
01:17:39,052 --> 01:17:40,792
Sure. That seems like

1594
01:17:40,792 --> 01:17:42,731
another possible way.

1595
01:17:42,731 --> 01:17:44,512
In other similar products.

1596
01:17:45,072 --> 01:17:46,872
I don't know. I like the fact

1597
01:17:46,872 --> 01:17:48,032
that DK is still confident.

1598
01:17:48,352 --> 01:17:49,231
It gives me confidence.

1599
01:17:49,692 --> 01:17:52,412
However, this also sounds like something an arc would say, so I don't know.

1600
01:17:52,952 --> 01:17:55,352
But yeah, will it require work?

1601
01:17:55,472 --> 01:17:55,592
Sure.

1602
01:17:55,672 --> 01:17:59,032
But it's like, I mean, BitKey's already proven it with Coinbase and Cash App and others.

1603
01:17:59,672 --> 01:18:01,811
Robinhood, it's like super slick integration.

1604
01:18:02,032 --> 01:18:03,792
It's like great user experience.

1605
01:18:04,132 --> 01:18:04,912
It's secure.

1606
01:18:05,672 --> 01:18:07,012
You can do that with ETFs too.

1607
01:18:07,652 --> 01:18:07,832
Sure.

1608
01:18:08,792 --> 01:18:10,212
Yeah, I agree.

1609
01:18:10,311 --> 01:18:10,592
You can.

1610
01:18:10,652 --> 01:18:13,432
And I think that's why I'm kind of optimistic it'll work.

1611
01:18:13,472 --> 01:18:14,752
And it's just somebody has to build it.

1612
01:18:14,832 --> 01:18:16,112
It just doesn't work that way today.

1613
01:18:16,112 --> 01:18:26,572
So somebody has to build the Schwab interface that lets you sell the ETF and send the transaction to your Bitcoin.

1614
01:18:26,632 --> 01:18:28,572
I tend to agree, but I agree with your point.

1615
01:18:28,592 --> 01:18:30,332
I agree with your point, though, DK.

1616
01:18:30,632 --> 01:18:34,652
And I think the high order bit is what we talk about mostly on the show, which is we need innovation.

1617
01:18:35,072 --> 01:18:38,592
We need to build great applications that have user demand.

1618
01:18:38,592 --> 01:18:45,212
if there's a lot of demand from the population to use applications to use their bitcoin and their

1619
01:18:45,212 --> 01:18:51,632
bitcoins trapped in etfs there's going to be political pressure to change that yep one thing

1620
01:18:51,632 --> 01:18:57,572
i want to touch on briefly is the etfs are honestly much less of a concern for me i want to just

1621
01:18:57,572 --> 01:19:04,172
quickly touch on the micro strategy call um so i listened to sailor's earnings call not all if i

1622
01:19:04,172 --> 01:19:06,332
I listened to him talk for like 45 minutes or 30 minutes.

1623
01:19:06,332 --> 01:19:07,811
And then I listened to the questions.

1624
01:19:08,372 --> 01:19:09,712
Lynn was asking a good question.

1625
01:19:09,792 --> 01:19:15,132
A couple other folks were asking good questions and a couple high level takeaways that I think

1626
01:19:15,132 --> 01:19:15,652
are very relevant.

1627
01:19:15,771 --> 01:19:20,552
Number one, you'll notice I have my thumb is pretty messed up.

1628
01:19:21,771 --> 01:19:23,052
It was bleeding pretty heavily.

1629
01:19:23,172 --> 01:19:24,552
Thank you to Alex for getting me some tape.

1630
01:19:25,092 --> 01:19:28,191
I was slicing onions while listening to the call and got very excited.

1631
01:19:29,271 --> 01:19:33,632
And so that should tell you a lot of what you need to know.

1632
01:19:34,172 --> 01:19:39,792
Um, I mean, damn, every time I listen to sailors speak, I mean, damn, it's like watching Michael

1633
01:19:39,792 --> 01:19:41,332
Jordan do his thing.

1634
01:19:41,412 --> 01:19:42,832
Like unbelievable.

1635
01:19:43,212 --> 01:19:44,972
Now you do look at the markets too, right?

1636
01:19:45,012 --> 01:19:47,052
It's down 8.77%.

1637
01:19:47,052 --> 01:19:47,512
Excellent.

1638
01:19:47,752 --> 01:19:49,872
Like time to, time to smash buy.

1639
01:19:49,972 --> 01:19:52,032
Like great market doesn't understand yet.

1640
01:19:52,231 --> 01:19:54,172
Efficient market hypothesis is completely wrong.

1641
01:19:54,172 --> 01:20:00,992
Um, so on the plus side, a couple of quick takeaways, and then I'm curious how this relates

1642
01:20:00,992 --> 01:20:02,992
to ETFs and also exchanges that I'm very bullish on.

1643
01:20:02,992 --> 01:20:11,271
so um number one two things i took away from that he mentioned he does agree that stretch

1644
01:20:11,271 --> 01:20:14,912
his dollar-like instrument the money market i think money market instrument is better right

1645
01:20:14,912 --> 01:20:19,432
because that's a seven trillion dollar industry high yield savings count huge um he calls it the

1646
01:20:19,432 --> 01:20:24,191
iphone moment for microstrategy i could not agree more i could not agree more microstrategy is still

1647
01:20:24,191 --> 01:20:30,652
apple pre-iphone maybe even you can argue like 1980s apple um people have not understood it yet

1648
01:20:30,652 --> 01:20:36,532
But once they do, it's clear to me that he wants not just to go after institutional finance, he wants retail.

1649
01:20:36,932 --> 01:20:40,052
He wants the whole global market coming and storing with him.

1650
01:20:40,112 --> 01:20:46,212
And I think he's going to get it because it's going to be really hard to compete with 9% or whatever he's giving on his Bitcoin back to money market.

1651
01:20:46,691 --> 01:20:49,952
So, oh my God, that's really bullish for MicroStrategy.

1652
01:20:50,752 --> 01:20:51,392
Number two.

1653
01:20:51,952 --> 01:20:56,612
If only the IPO, I think was $2.5 billion, it came out too, right?

1654
01:20:57,132 --> 01:20:57,512
Yes.

1655
01:20:57,512 --> 01:20:58,492
And by the way.

1656
01:20:58,492 --> 01:21:01,352
That's $2.5 billion of what can be $7 trillion.

1657
01:21:01,892 --> 01:21:06,992
And the people who make those decisions are just extremely just numbers driven.

1658
01:21:07,172 --> 01:21:08,811
You're going to give me an extra 50 bips?

1659
01:21:08,872 --> 01:21:10,032
Of course, I'm going to come over there.

1660
01:21:10,372 --> 01:21:14,252
So that's 9% competing with 4.5% or whatever.

1661
01:21:14,452 --> 01:21:15,271
I mean, it's unfair.

1662
01:21:15,271 --> 01:21:15,872
What is the money market?

1663
01:21:16,212 --> 01:21:22,552
And then eventually this spills down to retail who says, hey, I have whatever, a high yield

1664
01:21:22,552 --> 01:21:25,432
savings account with Marcus Goldman Sachs or with Fidel.

1665
01:21:25,552 --> 01:21:26,311
I don't even know.

1666
01:21:26,311 --> 01:21:30,412
like whatever people have. And it's like, why don't I just go into this? And by the way, someone,

1667
01:21:30,712 --> 01:21:35,992
maybe it'll be him, will probably make like maybe a wrapper around that. Maybe this is a company

1668
01:21:35,992 --> 01:21:40,612
that just offers high yield savings just like because if someone doesn't even have a Vanguard

1669
01:21:40,612 --> 01:21:44,512
account or a Fidelity account, like how can they access this? I bet someone's going to come on with

1670
01:21:44,512 --> 01:21:48,132
a wrapper. I don't know what the legality is around that, but like there's a huge opportunity

1671
01:21:48,132 --> 01:21:52,952
just in letting normal people tap into that. Then though, what I started realizing is, you know,

1672
01:21:52,952 --> 01:21:57,992
when Saylor gave his speech, he was kind of like, oh, I'm glad there's all these other Bitcoin

1673
01:21:57,992 --> 01:22:02,972
treasury companies. They're going after the other markets and it's all good. Then the president dude,

1674
01:22:03,212 --> 01:22:08,552
Fong, the guy that's running day-to-day operations, he comes on and I guess this was a little bit of

1675
01:22:08,552 --> 01:22:11,632
alpha in there because he answered a question where he was like, yeah, we're considering just

1676
01:22:11,632 --> 01:22:14,771
going to every other market and making the offer. It's like, do we do it with dollars or do we do

1677
01:22:14,771 --> 01:22:21,432
it with their currency? So again, I'm extremely, extremely sure that Taylor's going to just roll

1678
01:22:21,432 --> 01:22:25,452
up all these other treasury companies, either when they blow up or if they're prudent risk

1679
01:22:25,452 --> 01:22:28,552
managers for pennies on the dollar, pennies on the Bitcoin, whatever it is.

1680
01:22:28,712 --> 01:22:30,452
So that's all very bullish.

1681
01:22:30,452 --> 01:22:34,691
Now, to our point, someone asked him the question.

1682
01:22:34,952 --> 01:22:37,432
They were like, hey, man, like basically tip of the hat.

1683
01:22:37,952 --> 01:22:38,672
Sat on the Bitcoin.

1684
01:22:38,912 --> 01:22:39,512
Sat on the Bitcoin.

1685
01:22:39,512 --> 01:22:40,231
Sorry, sorry.

1686
01:22:40,652 --> 01:22:42,552
Bitcoin on the whatever, on the dollar.

1687
01:22:42,731 --> 01:22:43,311
Bitcoin on the Bitcoin.

1688
01:22:43,632 --> 01:22:44,271
Bitcoin on the Bitcoin.

1689
01:22:44,372 --> 01:22:44,731
Yeah, exactly.

1690
01:22:44,872 --> 01:22:46,012
We need a better way to say that.

1691
01:22:46,112 --> 01:22:48,052
Like, I know you guys are all on the Bitcoin train.

1692
01:22:48,132 --> 01:22:48,532
I get it.

1693
01:22:48,552 --> 01:22:50,172
But like Bitcoin on the Bitcoin train.

1694
01:22:51,432 --> 01:22:52,932
So we need a way to say that.

1695
01:22:53,132 --> 01:22:55,311
Anyways, so someone's like giving him the hat tip

1696
01:22:55,311 --> 01:22:57,191
and then they kind of ask a little bit

1697
01:22:57,191 --> 01:22:58,952
the freedom question, like, but like, bro,

1698
01:22:58,992 --> 01:23:00,072
you've already got 3% of the market.

1699
01:23:00,271 --> 01:23:01,472
Now there's, I think, 11% of the market

1700
01:23:01,472 --> 01:23:02,252
that's all in institutions.

1701
01:23:02,792 --> 01:23:03,771
Isn't this going to kill Bitcoin?

1702
01:23:04,112 --> 01:23:05,992
I actually thought his answer was pretty good

1703
01:23:05,992 --> 01:23:07,952
where he's like, look, even if we absolutely go out there

1704
01:23:07,952 --> 01:23:09,372
and take 7.5% of the market, right,

1705
01:23:09,392 --> 01:23:11,852
which by the way, he claims getting 7.5%

1706
01:23:11,852 --> 01:23:13,132
from where they are today at 2%

1707
01:23:13,132 --> 01:23:15,132
would drive the price to $10 million a coin.

1708
01:23:16,072 --> 01:23:16,811
That's kind of interesting.

1709
01:23:17,771 --> 01:23:20,052
Let's say he even gets to 10% of the market, right?

1710
01:23:20,052 --> 01:23:23,112
And a third of the whole market is held, you and I were having this conversation, I think

1711
01:23:23,112 --> 01:23:25,592
last week, a third of the market is all held by institutions.

1712
01:23:26,092 --> 01:23:28,552
I mean, I do think, and a third, let's say, even gets lost.

1713
01:23:28,652 --> 01:23:31,512
And one day quantum, you know, there's still at least a third of the market, hopefully

1714
01:23:31,512 --> 01:23:33,492
more, that's held by early people.

1715
01:23:33,892 --> 01:23:37,672
And I do think that, you know, his point was like, yeah, well, these like early hodlers,

1716
01:23:38,271 --> 01:23:41,092
and by the way, I think this is something that's not talked about enough.

1717
01:23:41,152 --> 01:23:42,372
It's how the world is going to change.

1718
01:23:42,652 --> 01:23:46,592
What's the world going to look like when like the multi, multi-billionaires are like wild

1719
01:23:46,592 --> 01:23:48,612
people that bought it in 2011 and never sold?

1720
01:23:49,212 --> 01:23:52,652
I mean, they're going to be, for the most part, pro-freedom and funding some pretty crazy stuff.

1721
01:23:53,072 --> 01:23:55,372
So that made me feel a little bit better about all of this.

1722
01:23:55,472 --> 01:24:05,332
Even if there is sort of the institutional neutering of Bitcoin, it will never be completely neutered as long as the wild men and potentially women hold their early coins.

1723
01:24:05,652 --> 01:24:07,752
So that's good.

1724
01:24:07,752 --> 01:24:10,191
But I did start thinking about this a bit more.

1725
01:24:10,292 --> 01:24:13,811
And it's like, you know, I have been extremely long on companies like River.

1726
01:24:14,052 --> 01:24:15,372
I've said this many times.

1727
01:24:15,412 --> 01:24:16,512
I think it's a generational company.

1728
01:24:17,231 --> 01:24:18,652
I think they're building JP Morgan

1729
01:24:18,652 --> 01:24:21,892
while Coinbase is building Caesars, as Alex said.

1730
01:24:21,932 --> 01:24:22,512
I think that's great.

1731
01:24:22,872 --> 01:24:24,191
But then if I'm being frank,

1732
01:24:24,231 --> 01:24:24,992
the more I think about this,

1733
01:24:25,052 --> 01:24:26,792
even with the ETFs or exchanges like them

1734
01:24:26,792 --> 01:24:27,731
or Coinbase or however,

1735
01:24:28,252 --> 01:24:29,231
I do wonder like,

1736
01:24:29,652 --> 01:24:31,092
I mean, they'll always have a place

1737
01:24:31,092 --> 01:24:32,512
because of this customer service

1738
01:24:32,512 --> 01:24:34,012
and the ability to get your Bitcoin in and out.

1739
01:24:34,152 --> 01:24:36,412
But like Alex has a great product, right?

1740
01:24:36,512 --> 01:24:38,992
I put in dollars, I get Bitcoin returns out.

1741
01:24:39,032 --> 01:24:40,432
I think they're paying like three or 4%.

1742
01:24:40,432 --> 01:24:41,132
Like that's awesome.

1743
01:24:41,691 --> 01:24:43,072
But like, can anyone,

1744
01:24:43,311 --> 01:24:44,952
any of these exchanges compete?

1745
01:24:44,952 --> 01:24:47,752
I mean if Saylor is able to give you 9%

1746
01:24:47,752 --> 01:24:49,832
can anyone compete

1747
01:24:49,832 --> 01:24:52,132
or is he just literally going to put all the banks out of business too?

1748
01:24:53,072 --> 01:24:54,492
I mean it's a good question

1749
01:24:54,492 --> 01:24:55,492
but to be clear

1750
01:24:55,492 --> 01:24:58,292
I think the expectation that 9% comes down

1751
01:24:58,292 --> 01:24:59,352
because he's going to

1752
01:24:59,352 --> 01:25:02,691
like he wants to move it down right?

1753
01:25:02,852 --> 01:25:03,231
Of course.

1754
01:25:03,372 --> 01:25:04,352
He's going to test the market

1755
01:25:04,352 --> 01:25:06,072
how much demand is there at 9%?

1756
01:25:06,492 --> 01:25:07,112
It's going well?

1757
01:25:07,252 --> 01:25:07,492
Great.

1758
01:25:07,691 --> 01:25:08,952
Let's reduce it to 8.5

1759
01:25:08,952 --> 01:25:10,712
8 down to 5.5 whatever

1760
01:25:10,712 --> 01:25:13,292
he'll find where the perfect spot is.

1761
01:25:13,412 --> 01:25:13,792
But to be clear

1762
01:25:13,792 --> 01:25:15,332
I'm saying higher than what everyone else can get.

1763
01:25:15,332 --> 01:25:18,052
Yeah, I agree is a good question.

1764
01:25:20,231 --> 01:25:21,432
I just wanted to outline,

1765
01:25:22,052 --> 01:25:25,632
we talked last week about risks to Bitcoin,

1766
01:25:26,072 --> 01:25:28,512
whether it's strategy or ETS or whatever,

1767
01:25:28,731 --> 01:25:29,872
like gobble of all these Bitcoin.

1768
01:25:30,292 --> 01:25:33,932
I think there's at least three different risks to talk about,

1769
01:25:34,032 --> 01:25:35,311
and we've already talked about some of them.

1770
01:25:35,311 --> 01:25:42,832
But one is that there's risk to the Bitcoin consensus rules

1771
01:25:42,832 --> 01:25:44,191
if there's too much concentration.

1772
01:25:44,731 --> 01:25:47,972
Another risk is the Bitcoin network itself.

1773
01:25:48,112 --> 01:25:49,592
If there's not network activity,

1774
01:25:50,152 --> 01:25:52,072
then there's not fees to pay miners

1775
01:25:52,072 --> 01:25:54,332
and the entire experiment dies

1776
01:25:54,332 --> 01:25:56,992
because you lose the security model of miners.

1777
01:25:58,892 --> 01:26:00,972
And the, what's the third one?

1778
01:26:01,152 --> 01:26:01,992
I forget the third one.

1779
01:26:02,112 --> 01:26:02,612
I forget the third one too.

1780
01:26:02,752 --> 01:26:03,311
Yeah, anyway.

1781
01:26:03,852 --> 01:26:06,952
But well, in our conversation after the show last week,

1782
01:26:06,952 --> 01:26:12,292
I felt like we had pretty good answers to a lot of those.

1783
01:26:12,292 --> 01:26:17,952
side became less worried less worried is definitely something we should keep talking about but like the

1784
01:26:17,952 --> 01:26:25,231
the the protocol rules i'm just not super concerned by that and it's because bitcoin uses proof of

1785
01:26:25,231 --> 01:26:31,691
work and it doesn't use proof of stake yeah if it used proof of stake then we should all be extremely

1786
01:26:31,691 --> 01:26:38,752
concerned uh because there's a direct relationship then on the bitcoin whoever's holding the bitcoin

1787
01:26:38,752 --> 01:26:45,212
even if shareholders or others are the legal owners it's whoever's holding the bitcoin that

1788
01:26:45,212 --> 01:26:49,412
makes it so i thought of the third risk before i forget real quick the third risk is the honeypot

1789
01:26:49,412 --> 01:26:55,072
risk yeah so like if strategy has right i think coinbase has like three million bitcoin or

1790
01:26:55,072 --> 01:26:59,612
something now that they're costing right and that'll only grow if they're supporting more

1791
01:26:59,612 --> 01:27:05,352
you know more black rocks more strategies or just those companies grow so the but getting back to

1792
01:27:05,352 --> 01:27:08,771
the consensus rules because Bitcoin is based on proof of work.

1793
01:27:11,112 --> 01:27:16,231
And the Bitcoin consensus analysis project, which I worked on last year with Lynn and Ren,

1794
01:27:16,912 --> 01:27:21,532
we go into this in detail, but like what power do investors have?

1795
01:27:22,352 --> 01:27:27,731
Their primary power, which is like the nuclear option that they can sell Bitcoin,

1796
01:27:27,972 --> 01:27:30,432
or if there's a fork, they can sell one of the forks.

1797
01:27:30,811 --> 01:27:32,372
And that's very, very, very powerful.

1798
01:27:32,372 --> 01:27:35,392
It's the most powerful out of everyone's powers.

1799
01:27:36,512 --> 01:27:50,632
But do we really think a strategy is going to dump all their Bitcoin because they don't like adding a covenant feature to Bitcoin?

1800
01:27:51,012 --> 01:27:52,332
I don't think they will.

1801
01:27:52,332 --> 01:28:01,472
I think if they don't like that because they don't want Bitcoin touched and they don't risk Bitcoin in that way, they'll definitely go on a campaign.

1802
01:28:01,472 --> 01:28:07,032
campaign so that that would be more the influencer stakeholder category that we outlined in that in

1803
01:28:07,032 --> 01:28:13,311
that paper not the investor category and that that can be effective influencing absolutely can be

1804
01:28:13,311 --> 01:28:18,292
effective like sailor could go to the miners could go to the exchanges and say don't do this

1805
01:28:18,292 --> 01:28:22,271
and like all right you go to coinbase and say don't don't upgrade or i'm going to pull my money

1806
01:28:22,271 --> 01:28:26,612
out of coinbase and go somewhere else there's those types of powers um so there's still power

1807
01:28:26,612 --> 01:28:30,412
there, but I don't believe they're going to just quit their business

1808
01:28:30,412 --> 01:28:34,532
and sell Bitcoin. So I'm not super worried

1809
01:28:34,532 --> 01:28:38,512
about protocol risk. Then the Bitcoin

1810
01:28:38,512 --> 01:28:42,492
network risk, we're going to keep talking about that on the show because that is

1811
01:28:42,492 --> 01:28:46,372
I think one of the biggest risks to Bitcoin. We need

1812
01:28:46,372 --> 01:28:50,112
there to be sufficient self-custody in Bitcoin

1813
01:28:50,112 --> 01:28:54,452
so that people are actually doing real Bitcoin transactions in the network and

1814
01:28:54,452 --> 01:28:59,191
generating fees in order to keep the network alive. And this isn't some, well, actually,

1815
01:28:59,352 --> 01:29:04,512
you said in two years, if we don't have this, we're dead. I think it's more like two decades,

1816
01:29:05,112 --> 01:29:10,652
but like, we can't just blow it up. We can't just, it's somewhere in there. I mean, we can't just

1817
01:29:10,652 --> 01:29:15,072
like, uh, be like, ah, it's 20 years away. We'll worry about it then. Cause then if no one's

1818
01:29:15,072 --> 01:29:19,432
worried about it, we haven't developed compelling applications, compelling reasons beyond just

1819
01:29:19,432 --> 01:29:21,532
buying the Bitcoin ETF,

1820
01:29:22,412 --> 01:29:24,932
then Bitcoin is going to be a dead experiment.

1821
01:29:25,731 --> 01:29:26,832
So we should keep talking about that,

1822
01:29:26,892 --> 01:29:28,332
but I'm not too worried about that

1823
01:29:28,332 --> 01:29:29,872
because we talk about innovation all the time

1824
01:29:29,872 --> 01:29:31,652
and let's keep driving that narrative.

1825
01:29:31,992 --> 01:29:32,152
I agree.

1826
01:29:32,492 --> 01:29:33,712
The third thing, the honeypot,

1827
01:29:33,892 --> 01:29:36,592
I think that's the biggest actual risk.

1828
01:29:37,191 --> 01:29:39,992
And so if strategy is accumulating

1829
01:29:39,992 --> 01:29:41,271
an insane amount of coins

1830
01:29:41,271 --> 01:29:42,492
or BlackRock or whatever,

1831
01:29:42,752 --> 01:29:44,592
and then they're in charge

1832
01:29:44,592 --> 01:29:46,231
of where those coins are stored.

1833
01:29:46,731 --> 01:29:48,632
And my understanding is that strategy

1834
01:29:48,632 --> 01:29:50,472
does diversify across a few

1835
01:29:50,472 --> 01:29:52,712
like Fidelity, Coinbase

1836
01:29:52,712 --> 01:29:53,952
and maybe another

1837
01:29:53,952 --> 01:29:56,691
custodian. That's certainly better

1838
01:29:56,691 --> 01:29:57,731
than not diversifying.

1839
01:29:58,972 --> 01:30:00,612
But it's still a lot of coins.

1840
01:30:01,432 --> 01:30:02,612
And then you take

1841
01:30:02,612 --> 01:30:04,372
a Coinbase or Fidelity and they have multiple

1842
01:30:04,372 --> 01:30:06,132
customers themselves or whatever.

1843
01:30:06,932 --> 01:30:08,632
It's a lot of coins. So that's a big risk.

1844
01:30:08,752 --> 01:30:10,372
I mean, we talked about

1845
01:30:10,372 --> 01:30:12,811
quantum risks on the show.

1846
01:30:13,012 --> 01:30:14,532
We had an event. And like

1847
01:30:14,532 --> 01:30:16,292
one of the risks is like, well, a quantum computer can

1848
01:30:16,292 --> 01:30:18,372
steal like a million coins or two million coins.

1849
01:30:18,372 --> 01:30:19,132
Well, guess what?

1850
01:30:19,311 --> 01:30:22,092
Today, right now, there is no quantum computer that can do that.

1851
01:30:22,231 --> 01:30:30,592
But absolutely, there are cyber hackers around the world who can break into Coinbase or other custodians and steal the Bitcoin.

1852
01:30:31,012 --> 01:30:36,152
Obviously, those companies have like layer, you know, multiple layers of defense.

1853
01:30:36,712 --> 01:30:37,552
It's low probability.

1854
01:30:37,712 --> 01:30:38,592
It's super hard to do.

1855
01:30:39,012 --> 01:30:42,132
But as the honeypot grows, their incentive grows to do it.

1856
01:30:42,132 --> 01:30:46,311
And as nation states, I mean, like maybe they're good against normal hackers.

1857
01:30:46,412 --> 01:30:48,271
But like, are they good against China coming in?

1858
01:30:48,372 --> 01:30:50,271
Like it's going to get a lot more intense.

1859
01:30:50,452 --> 01:30:52,132
So I wouldn't want to be in charge of that.

1860
01:30:52,472 --> 01:30:53,592
Anything else on strategy?

1861
01:30:54,972 --> 01:30:56,752
No, I mean, I think just in general,

1862
01:30:56,872 --> 01:30:59,572
like I continue to be just blown away by the opportunity

1863
01:30:59,572 --> 01:31:02,872
and maybe slightly less concerned this week

1864
01:31:02,872 --> 01:31:04,632
than I was last week with the freedom concerns.

1865
01:31:04,672 --> 01:31:06,311
But I think it's something we definitely need to be vigilant on.

1866
01:31:06,311 --> 01:31:08,311
And also to your point, I do think,

1867
01:31:08,892 --> 01:31:10,012
could they stop it?

1868
01:31:10,052 --> 01:31:10,552
Probably not.

1869
01:31:10,612 --> 01:31:12,572
But like if we want to get a covenant through,

1870
01:31:12,792 --> 01:31:14,652
like sooner is better.

1871
01:31:15,132 --> 01:31:17,752
Because I guarantee you the more they accumulate,

1872
01:31:17,752 --> 01:31:18,892
they're not going to do it.

1873
01:31:20,032 --> 01:31:20,691
All right.

1874
01:31:20,932 --> 01:31:21,092
Yeah.

1875
01:31:21,352 --> 01:31:22,412
2026 it is.

1876
01:31:22,592 --> 01:31:22,771
Yeah.

1877
01:31:23,092 --> 01:31:23,792
Covenants in 26.

1878
01:31:24,012 --> 01:31:24,392
There it is.

1879
01:31:26,032 --> 01:31:26,672
All right.

1880
01:31:26,952 --> 01:31:29,811
I think we're way over time at this point.

1881
01:31:30,112 --> 01:31:33,271
No, we're 1 minute and 30 seconds.

1882
01:31:33,352 --> 01:31:33,932
We started late.

1883
01:31:34,292 --> 01:31:39,832
So I promise you'll be ready to move at 1.30 and now it's 1.40.

1884
01:31:40,872 --> 01:31:42,672
So I have an errand to run.

1885
01:31:42,852 --> 01:31:44,012
You guys want to keep jamming?

1886
01:31:44,852 --> 01:31:45,512
No, no, no.

1887
01:31:45,512 --> 01:31:46,811
But I'm going to have to call it around.

1888
01:31:46,811 --> 01:31:48,472
just hit us on

1889
01:31:48,472 --> 01:31:48,811
BitChart

1890
01:31:48,811 --> 01:31:50,352
yeah

1891
01:31:50,352 --> 01:31:50,771
well

1892
01:31:50,771 --> 01:31:51,652
I'll be

1893
01:31:51,652 --> 01:31:52,352
I'll be back

1894
01:31:52,352 --> 01:31:53,352
soon

1895
01:31:53,352 --> 01:31:54,352
and I want to talk

1896
01:31:54,352 --> 01:31:55,152
more about

1897
01:31:55,152 --> 01:31:56,512
like the local

1898
01:31:56,512 --> 01:31:57,372
Bitcoin idea

1899
01:31:57,372 --> 01:31:58,912
and I'd like to

1900
01:31:58,912 --> 01:31:59,771
I think it was

1901
01:31:59,771 --> 01:32:00,332
because it's

1902
01:32:00,332 --> 01:32:01,412
that'd be a fun one

1903
01:32:01,412 --> 01:32:02,052
I was just thinking

1904
01:32:02,052 --> 01:32:03,191
it'd be a fun one to do

1905
01:32:03,191 --> 01:32:04,512
at a builder event

1906
01:32:04,512 --> 01:32:05,932
if we could actually

1907
01:32:05,932 --> 01:32:07,271
play with

1908
01:32:07,271 --> 01:32:08,592
your local Bitcoin idea

1909
01:32:08,592 --> 01:32:09,072
but I

1910
01:32:09,072 --> 01:32:09,532
I need

1911
01:32:09,532 --> 01:32:10,332
I've actually

1912
01:32:10,332 --> 01:32:11,552
browsed the website

1913
01:32:11,552 --> 01:32:12,252
but never

1914
01:32:12,252 --> 01:32:13,932
never transacted

1915
01:32:13,932 --> 01:32:14,572
and I don't know if you've

1916
01:32:14,572 --> 01:32:15,292
transacted or could

1917
01:32:15,292 --> 01:32:16,352
describe more about

1918
01:32:16,811 --> 01:32:17,612
your experience with it,

1919
01:32:17,632 --> 01:32:18,432
but I think that would be

1920
01:32:18,432 --> 01:32:19,372
an interesting little,

1921
01:32:19,372 --> 01:32:20,811
little brainstorm session

1922
01:32:20,811 --> 01:32:21,512
we can do offline,

1923
01:32:22,112 --> 01:32:23,271
but maybe we'll come back

1924
01:32:23,271 --> 01:32:24,212
and have something to build

1925
01:32:24,212 --> 01:32:24,632
for Builder.

1926
01:32:24,832 --> 01:32:25,332
I'll say again,

1927
01:32:25,392 --> 01:32:26,652
nice try, Fed, but...

1928
01:32:26,652 --> 01:32:31,532
Notice he's not in person with us.

1929
01:32:31,592 --> 01:32:31,872
I know.

1930
01:32:31,872 --> 01:32:32,691
Do we even really know

1931
01:32:32,691 --> 01:32:33,492
we're talking to DK?

1932
01:32:33,691 --> 01:32:34,191
I don't know.

1933
01:32:34,472 --> 01:32:35,212
I'm going to want to see

1934
01:32:35,212 --> 01:32:36,231
a proof of signature.

1935
01:32:36,532 --> 01:32:36,811
Synthetic,

1936
01:32:36,811 --> 01:32:38,912
synthetic influencer DK.

1937
01:32:39,311 --> 01:32:39,592
Exactly.

1938
01:32:41,311 --> 01:32:41,811
All right.

1939
01:32:41,852 --> 01:32:42,092
All right.

1940
01:32:42,212 --> 01:32:42,792
Have a good one.

1941
01:32:42,872 --> 01:32:43,311
Bye, guys.

1942
01:32:43,512 --> 01:32:43,932
See you, everyone.

1943
01:32:44,052 --> 01:32:44,231
See you.

1944
01:32:44,352 --> 01:32:44,932
See you guys soon.