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All right, here we are.

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Welcome to another episode of PBJ.

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This is January 9th, 2026, and this is our first one of the year.

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Good to see you.

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2026?

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I thought it was 3036.

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I don't know.

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What century is it?

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The acceleration seems like it sometimes.

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On this show, Max operates as if it's 3026.

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Sometimes, sometimes.

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You know, the future is here, just not even latest.

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Deltron.

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Deltron predicted it all, 3030.

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Happy New Year, though.

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Happy New Year, Steve.

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Happy New Year.

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Happy New Year, DK.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Happy New Year, Biddy.

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How would you think?

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January 9th is a milestone in Bitcoin, or a moment in Bitcoin.

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Oh, that's right.

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The first actual mined block was January 9th, I believe.

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The first mined block.

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Isn't that correct?

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I thought it was.

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What happened on the 3rd?

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Something happened on the 3rd.

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The Genesis block was published.

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And then nothing was mined for like a week?

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Yeah.

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Really?

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I didn't realize it was that long.

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I know there's something about the...

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Genesis block, you can't spend the coin, it's a special block.

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You can't spend the Coinbase.

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And that was published January 3rd.

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That was published, and then it was just left, nothing's happening,

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let the week go, nobody's mining anything.

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I mean, the code was dropped, so it could have been mined within minutes.

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But someone had to run the software and find a block.

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And Satoshi, was Satoshi specifically,

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do we think that he didn't mine the first one

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because he was specifically waiting for somebody else to do it?

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when I spoke with him he didn't really say

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we should have a follow up

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interview with Satoshi

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can we patch Satoshi real quick

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let's find out

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I don't think we know

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I don't think we know what he was doing

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maybe from his online

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activity

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messages maybe

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he had messages between the third and the ninth

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I don't know

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it's a reasonable speculation

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what else would he be doing

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so the third the software

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was actually available, the Genesis block

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was mined, and then he kind of just like turned

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off mining, just

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nothing happened for the next week or so, right?

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From the third to the ninth?

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Yep.

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That's how the network worked.

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He presumably turned off the software

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because otherwise he would have

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mined a lot of blocks.

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The difficulty level was low.

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So who is

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Dave Ramsey or whatever is like,

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what happens if those nerds turn it off? He actually did

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that in that first week.

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I don't know.

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I hear he was pretty busy that week with staking his Ethereum.

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So I don't know.

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He had to go do a press tour, make sure that Wall Street was on board.

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He needed to go ask permission for a few things.

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So we're back, boys.

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How was y'all's break?

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Where do we begin?

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Oh, man.

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Steve's looking fancy again.

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I like it.

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Yeah.

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I got some new gear.

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Some good swag.

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over the holiday break.

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Yeah, how was y'all's break?

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What would you go to?

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It was great.

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Iowa State's 15-0 now.

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Oh, yeah.

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First 15-0 start in school history.

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You guys are balling it.

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In Ken Palm, you're our top number two.

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Three, two.

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Yeah.

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If you go back, Ken Palm goes back to 1997.

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Okay.

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So the past 30 years, Iowa State is now a top 12 all-time team.

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What is going on?

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Like up there with like Duke 99, Duke 01.

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What the hell is going on over there?

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Because you guys don't have the NIL.

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How are you that good?

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it's the

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it's crazy

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we're a bunch of fanatics

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I like it

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support the team

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the corn

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no great coach

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the corn

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it's all the corn

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the big corn

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no I mean the

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the players

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the players could have

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taken 50 to 100%

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more money

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this year

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and they didn't

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they stayed

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because they loved the culture

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they thought they could

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win a national championship

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respect

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here we go

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there you go

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wow

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it's good to have a mission

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like team bitcoin

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another thing I did

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of a break, I observed

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what many people do.

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It's a reset, a mental reset

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and sort of like look back in the

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past year, look forward to the new year.

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What do you do? You set New Year's resolutions, right?

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So I went through that process

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and I think

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DK wanted me to speak to some of the stuff I'm

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doing.

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We chatted on the

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high level, some ideas came up

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but I wanted to hear actually more about what

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actually motivated this and how it's going and what

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you actually hope to achieve with these.

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yeah well a lot of it is stuff i think max is already doing so interested to hear what you

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your thought but i just sort of um i wanted to like a reset on how i spend my time

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yeah um i mean so there's i always have physical goals like so you know running or some race or

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whatever so i've got i've got those you know i love the dipsy race now so i've got a goal there

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um those are easy for me because i love doing them so it's not like hard to do that goal uh

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One that is physically related that is a little bit harder is mobility.

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Because I'm not a huge fan of stretching and even yoga.

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I mean, I don't hate yoga, but I don't get drawn to it like I do with biking or cycling.

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Or biking or running.

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But yeah, I introduced a mobility goal.

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But I think the goals that you're interested in talking about in the show are more around digital habits, internet habits, etc.

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So I really tried to account for my time better looking back and then made some changes.

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So I know, Max, you've talked about like deleting apps from your phone, getting away from the feed, etc.

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So I haven't deleted an app from my phone, but that's not true.

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I actually went through every app on my phone and deleted about 70 apps that I don't use anymore.

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70? Holy moly.

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It's just apps that don't use.

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That was more just like standard house cleaning,

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not behavioral changes.

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But like X in particular, I get sucked into it

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like many people in Bitcoin do.

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I actually never used Twitter that much at all

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until I got into Bitcoin.

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I mean, I was one of the first users on Twitter,

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but I just didn't really use it that much.

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Bitcoin drew me into that.

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I was a very regular user.

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And then like news and politics, et cetera,

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you get sucked in.

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I learned a lot. I mean, it's an amazing tool

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and it's like a professional tool for me.

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So it's not as easy

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and also I get links sent to me constantly

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and of course I'm also an instigator of sending links, right?

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So it's not practical

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to just say no to it, I don't think.

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It actually would harm how I'm productive at work

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including the show

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but Bitcoin development, etc. Bitcoin sentiment, etc.

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So I can't just cut it off.

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But I basically am saying no to speed scrolling, which I think is something you've done.

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So I wasn't sure how it would work out, though, because if it's not as simple as deleting the app and literally not logging in, then how do you not get sucked in?

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You have to be disciplined and tough and mentally tough, right?

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So 10 days into this, I have been mentally tough.

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I've not been scrolling.

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So let's keep checking back in every month or two how I'm doing because I worry about slipping, but I don't want to slip.

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Well, I feel like it's easier now than it was five days ago.

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It's been surprisingly pretty easy every day.

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You said it's mentally tough.

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Like, is that mental toughness?

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Oh, well, I anticipated you need mental toughness

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just because the product is designed to suck you in.

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I mean, like, Mac sends a link, I click,

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and my intention is just to look at that.

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But then, you know, then you want to look at replies.

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to understand context.

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And that's, for me, still within bounds.

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And then I might want to look at quote tweets

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to look at context.

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And that's still within bounds.

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But then you inevitably...

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You've got notifications.

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You inevitably get sucked into the feed itself.

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And so I anticipate that would be difficult to avoid.

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So far, so good, though.

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But I do...

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I'm not letting my guard down.

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I think that's going to continue to be hard to resist.

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So, I mean, first of all, congratulations.

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I think that's awesome.

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And to be clear, like, even though I've tried this, like, to be clear, I have not found a permanent solution. I like sometimes am doing really well with it and sometimes slip and I'm like, God damn it, not again. So I do think having the intention and the willpower is a great place to start and it's awesome. But I'm also very skeptical of willpower for the very long run. So I don't know what the answer is. I'm curious what you guys think. I mean, I think, you know, obviously you keep that going as long as you can.

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And I mean, some things that I've tried that have helped, obviously, getting rid of the app, trying to only use it on my computer.

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But even still, it's like occasionally it's like, oh, I just want to check real quick.

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Like you said, the contacts 20 fucking minutes later, you're like, God damn it, not again.

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And it's a constant, like, I haven't found a good solution.

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But I'm also with you where it's like, I have considered, do I just like, you know, like, I talked to Lingerley about just change my password, don't tell me.

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And maybe that's a good solution for like just doing it for a month.

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But then like to your point, like, yeah, there is stuff that like is I would like to be able to check.

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So, I mean, one thing that I love in the far future, maybe not so far, is with something like Nostre, you know, in theory, you could just create an app that's like, listen, I don't want the fucking feed at all.

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All I want is to be able to see this thing that someone sends me in the context, literally nothing else.

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Twitter or any of these closed proprietary platforms, of course, it's hard because they limit the API access.

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So I don't know what the long-term answer is.

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I mean, I don't know.

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DK, do you have any thoughts on this?

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I know you've experimented with your own.

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Or maybe people in the audience.

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It's like, I think this is a struggle for everyone.

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I do a ton of experimentation around this.

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One thing that I've also been trying to reduce

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turning my attention over to an algorithm.

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So if Steve or you, Max, send me a link,

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just because it happens to be hosted on Twitter,

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I'm like, yeah, great, I'll read that.

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I generally am fine just reading that and then closing it.

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So I kind of just have some ability or habit to do that.

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But I have moved Twitter way to the back,

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you know, several pages back

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that it's not easily accessible.

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It's something that I can like go to

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and I can click on a link that you send me in Signal

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and I can read it on Twitter,

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but then I can kind of be done with it.

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The one thing I've done is

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I was never really much of a big Reddit person.

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I don't like love Reddit.

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It's like fine.

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But what I have done, which is weird,

259
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,260
but what I have done is I've added Reddit

260
00:10:18,260 --> 00:10:22,480
to my main home page of my phone.

261
00:10:23,060 --> 00:10:24,380
And so when I kind of have that instinct,

262
00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:25,660
like, oh, I want to see what's going on.

263
00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:27,020
I want to understand the world a little bit more.

264
00:10:27,020 --> 00:10:30,920
i actually just open reddit and i look a little bit and i'm like okay that's enough

265
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:36,300
yeah it sort of gives me some some of that same like curiosity satisfaction but it's not tuned to

266
00:10:36,300 --> 00:10:43,280
like quite the same i don't know like uh you know quite the same rage inducing attempts that twitter

267
00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:48,880
tries to the information is overall i'd say lower quality less interesting but in a sense

268
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,540
it gives a it's like a it's like drinking diet coke maybe instead of coke it's not water but

269
00:10:53,540 --> 00:10:59,320
it's like a lighter version yeah i mean i i find stacker news is like that right for me like that

270
00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,820
that's what i've done and i i actually like yeah reddit reddit's not perfect i can still get sucked

271
00:11:03,820 --> 00:11:07,640
into reddit but it's way less likely than twitter because it's not like there's a billion fucking

272
00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,960
things like look at this incendiary um and there are really good deep threads on reddit for example

273
00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:18,720
there was one i think i sent you guys over the break on reddit singularity around like um uh

274
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,980
yeah, basically some dude who was just kind of like,

275
00:11:22,100 --> 00:11:24,240
oh man, like the singularity actually is here.

276
00:11:24,300 --> 00:11:25,260
And it was like, it was a great post.

277
00:11:25,340 --> 00:11:25,740
I loved it.

278
00:11:26,620 --> 00:11:27,660
And I agree with you on that.

279
00:11:27,980 --> 00:11:30,340
It's still, I think it's a good stopgap.

280
00:11:30,380 --> 00:11:31,300
It's not my perfect one.

281
00:11:31,660 --> 00:11:33,980
Matthew also mentioned deleting the apps using browser.

282
00:11:34,100 --> 00:11:34,700
I do the browser.

283
00:11:34,860 --> 00:11:35,860
I keep my phone black and white.

284
00:11:35,940 --> 00:11:37,000
That's another one that really helps me.

285
00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:38,680
But I don't know, man.

286
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:39,980
Part of me is just like,

287
00:11:39,980 --> 00:11:41,700
I wonder if the answer is going to be,

288
00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,040
you know, in this new AI wave

289
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,260
where when I finally get my assistant,

290
00:11:46,780 --> 00:11:47,720
you know, like that I own,

291
00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,640
and we were, DK and I were having a bit of an AI debate.

292
00:11:49,780 --> 00:11:51,100
We'll bring back in a minute.

293
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:52,800
But if I get that assistant, it's like,

294
00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:53,860
I don't want to see anything.

295
00:11:53,980 --> 00:11:55,540
Like literally all I want to do is

296
00:11:55,540 --> 00:11:57,400
tell me what I need to know.

297
00:11:57,740 --> 00:12:00,320
And if I decide I want to go in deeper context,

298
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:01,060
we'll do that together.

299
00:12:01,140 --> 00:12:01,680
But that's it.

300
00:12:02,260 --> 00:12:02,860
I don't know.

301
00:12:02,980 --> 00:12:03,100
Yeah.

302
00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:03,420
Yeah.

303
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,460
And I've thought about doing not a,

304
00:12:05,580 --> 00:12:08,220
it wouldn't probably be a large scale type of service,

305
00:12:08,220 --> 00:12:10,580
but for myself, I can imagine,

306
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,300
I've thought about building something like

307
00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:15,180
a Chrome extension that sits on my computer

308
00:12:15,180 --> 00:12:17,800
and reads everything that comes in on Twitter

309
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,880
and then kind of operates according to some like filter that I set.

310
00:12:21,940 --> 00:12:24,540
I say, if it's about really angry stuff, don't show it to me.

311
00:12:24,780 --> 00:12:27,360
If it's something interesting and kind of brings forward

312
00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,700
some new knowledge or learning about a topic I care about,

313
00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,220
then show me that and then have that Chrome extension

314
00:12:33,220 --> 00:12:35,420
do the reading, digestion and filtering.

315
00:12:35,780 --> 00:12:37,500
And then I build like some reading interface

316
00:12:37,500 --> 00:12:40,140
where I can read the stuff that the Chrome extension has filtered for me.

317
00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,620
So I've thought about building that.

318
00:12:42,620 --> 00:12:43,160
I would use that.

319
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:44,780
Get around to it in the new year.

320
00:12:45,180 --> 00:12:46,620
Yeah, I'd be interested to try that if you do.

321
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:47,560
Yeah.

322
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,640
A few more things that I'm trying to improve.

323
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,500
Well, the one that I mentioned that I think is why DK suggested talking about on the show

324
00:12:57,500 --> 00:13:01,260
is I'm in like dozens of Discord servers

325
00:13:01,260 --> 00:13:05,200
because a lot of the open source Bitcoin projects are on Discord servers.

326
00:13:06,100 --> 00:13:07,060
So, you know, it's part of...

327
00:13:07,060 --> 00:13:07,620
We'll have a new one soon, right?

328
00:13:08,820 --> 00:13:09,200
Right.

329
00:13:09,380 --> 00:13:12,280
I mean, yeah, we can't have enough Discord servers.

330
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:22,520
So, I mean, I need to be at least lurking, if not participating in many, if not most of these.

331
00:13:23,020 --> 00:13:24,160
Just part of my job.

332
00:13:25,020 --> 00:13:28,840
But my default behavior, though, is like notifications on.

333
00:13:28,980 --> 00:13:32,740
And I'm just like instinctively like an in back zero type person.

334
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,360
So I just want to like clean it out right away.

335
00:13:34,460 --> 00:13:37,940
So anytime I get a notification, I look at the message and then deal with it.

336
00:13:37,940 --> 00:13:42,880
either consume it and move on or respond or queue it up for,

337
00:13:43,020 --> 00:13:45,420
if it's not an instant response or I need to think about it more,

338
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:46,480
queue it up for later.

339
00:13:48,620 --> 00:13:49,680
And ultimately, I mean, yeah,

340
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:54,700
the number of Discord servers grew from like one to six to 12 to literally,

341
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,460
I probably have 25 or 30 now.

342
00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:58,080
Yeah, wow.

343
00:13:58,180 --> 00:14:01,800
So it becomes, it just was consuming my day.

344
00:14:02,180 --> 00:14:02,280
Yeah.

345
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,500
So I, sorry?

346
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,280
You leave notice on for all that?

347
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:20,500
Well, I turned off notice for maybe out of those like 30 Discord servers, maybe like six or eight are defunct or not really used anymore.

348
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:21,760
Like ABC.

349
00:14:22,660 --> 00:14:23,200
Oh, yeah. Sorry.

350
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,040
That was one of DK's.

351
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,880
And then I had already turned on muted notifications for like six or eight.

352
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:38,920
But yeah, I was getting, you know, it was a big, big part of my interaction during the day.

353
00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:43,680
So I've turned off immune notifications for almost all, but a couple.

354
00:14:45,260 --> 00:14:52,260
And just creating a practice of like checking like twice a week and like, you know, batching it basically.

355
00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:52,920
Batching, yes.

356
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,640
And then it's so much more efficient.

357
00:14:55,980 --> 00:14:59,180
So again, just started that, but I think I'll be able to stick to that.

358
00:14:59,740 --> 00:15:02,020
That's not a hard habit to create.

359
00:15:02,020 --> 00:15:09,780
that was just i needed to like step back realize it and then do it um and so did that uh another one

360
00:15:09,780 --> 00:15:19,400
um i created a new rule i cannot bring my phone into the bedroom at night so like and i and uh

361
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:24,040
but how do you wake up like you have like a analog alarm clock or you just i still use my

362
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,000
phone. It's

363
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,500
outside my room. I hear

364
00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:28,760
it.

365
00:15:29,260 --> 00:15:32,320
And if somehow that's not working,

366
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,480
I'll just get an alarm clock

367
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,120
old school or

368
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:37,420
an old phone or whatever.

369
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:38,860
But basically,

370
00:15:39,820 --> 00:15:41,860
no more

371
00:15:41,860 --> 00:15:43,480
falling asleep to

372
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,160
scrolling through Instagram reels

373
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:47,360
or whatever.

374
00:15:48,180 --> 00:15:50,460
No more waking up in the middle of the night

375
00:15:50,460 --> 00:15:52,580
and then grabbing my phone

376
00:15:52,580 --> 00:15:55,120
and getting sucked into messages and waking me up.

377
00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:55,840
Oh, that's good.

378
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:57,600
Maybe for like an hour or more, right?

379
00:15:58,540 --> 00:16:01,940
And so that's been super healthy so far.

380
00:16:02,980 --> 00:16:04,580
Hasn't been really that hard.

381
00:16:04,940 --> 00:16:09,520
I guess it feels a little weird now to go to bed without my phone,

382
00:16:10,060 --> 00:16:11,840
but I go to sleep right away.

383
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:13,300
So I'm happy about that.

384
00:16:13,380 --> 00:16:15,340
I'm not like sitting there awake for hours.

385
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:16,280
Yeah.

386
00:16:16,780 --> 00:16:19,700
That's why fitness helps because if you get tired from working out,

387
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:21,940
then your body tends to want to go to sleep.

388
00:16:21,940 --> 00:16:24,320
So yeah, and several other changes like that.

389
00:16:24,380 --> 00:16:27,440
But I think so far so good.

390
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,160
And the main one I'm worried about

391
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,940
that I'll slip up on is the doom scrolling.

392
00:16:32,460 --> 00:16:35,540
So we can keep checking in with each other

393
00:16:35,540 --> 00:16:36,940
every once in a while

394
00:16:36,940 --> 00:16:38,880
to make sure I stay disciplined on that.

395
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:39,280
Nice.

396
00:16:39,420 --> 00:16:40,500
Well, first of all, congratulations.

397
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:41,600
These are all great things.

398
00:16:42,140 --> 00:16:44,040
And I would just say

399
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:45,660
we should definitely all continue.

400
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:46,760
I think it's great to have community

401
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,060
to check in with people on.

402
00:16:48,140 --> 00:16:50,080
But I think on the doom scrolling thing,

403
00:16:50,100 --> 00:16:51,660
I think we need a better solution as a group,

404
00:16:51,660 --> 00:16:54,020
as a society. And DK, I don't know,

405
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,260
maybe your vibe could have been a step in the right direction.

406
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,000
I don't know. But willpower is a great start,

407
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:00,960
but I really believe we need a technological,

408
00:17:01,140 --> 00:17:04,040
like we need some structural solution.

409
00:17:04,300 --> 00:17:08,500
Yeah, I agree. A few people are chugging in here on comments.

410
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,440
By the way, I can see comments through this.

411
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,500
Oh, okay. So Matthew Coat says that

412
00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:17,640
we use as a quote freedom app.

413
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,100
I don't know what that app is, but basically he blocks out,

414
00:17:20,100 --> 00:17:24,560
sounds like you know notification stuff in the morning or during work hours or whatever and

415
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:30,420
yeah totally agree with that and that's that's aligned with what i'm trying to do as well just

416
00:17:30,420 --> 00:17:38,740
be interrupted less during the workday one thing i um for for me like a lot of my role is

417
00:17:38,740 --> 00:17:45,680
responding to people right away connecting people unblocking things so it's a little

418
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:47,540
I mean there's a cost to me

419
00:17:47,540 --> 00:17:49,420
just blocking everyone out

420
00:17:49,420 --> 00:17:51,740
for a day or two days at a time

421
00:17:51,740 --> 00:17:53,140
because then they might be

422
00:17:53,140 --> 00:17:55,740
people don't necessarily

423
00:17:55,740 --> 00:17:57,740
wait on me but I can

424
00:17:57,740 --> 00:17:59,700
reduce friction or I can unblock

425
00:17:59,700 --> 00:18:00,240
things

426
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,640
and that's typical for a PM

427
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,660
so I think that is a tension

428
00:18:05,660 --> 00:18:07,980
but still I'm way too

429
00:18:07,980 --> 00:18:09,860
far on one end

430
00:18:09,860 --> 00:18:10,500
of that spectrum

431
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:13,480
so blocking out time makes

432
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:14,900
a lot of sense

433
00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:18,000
also people were talking about

434
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,060
why the show was late and I was getting

435
00:18:20,060 --> 00:18:21,000
blamed which

436
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,200
I just wanted to comment on that

437
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,940
I will take responsibility however

438
00:18:25,940 --> 00:18:28,180
I blame Elon first of all

439
00:18:28,180 --> 00:18:29,780
because I was at the Tesla

440
00:18:29,780 --> 00:18:31,540
service center we can blame Elon for everything right

441
00:18:31,540 --> 00:18:33,740
and they told me the car would be done at 1030

442
00:18:33,740 --> 00:18:35,780
and then it wasn't done at 1030 and then I

443
00:18:35,780 --> 00:18:37,760
checked in again and they're like oh we'll definitely

444
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,040
have it done by 1130 I'm like I have to be in the studio

445
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,160
and then 1130

446
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:43,280
rolls around and it's still not ready

447
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:54,020
It never did. It's still not ready. So I had to Uber here. So then I show up 15 minutes late and then someone asked to take bathroom break.

448
00:18:54,500 --> 00:19:03,420
Hey man, whenever I can empty my bladder, I'm going to take that opportunity. As I learned growing up, quote, never miss an opportunity.

449
00:19:03,540 --> 00:19:06,200
I have a video recording of you taking that opportunity on many occasions.

450
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,480
That's what I do, baby. Too much tea. Pounding tea.

451
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:09,700
you know

452
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:10,220
that's my thing

453
00:19:10,220 --> 00:19:11,080
but yeah

454
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:11,660
so wait

455
00:19:11,660 --> 00:19:12,480
but you mean to tell me

456
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:13,740
the Tesla mechanic

457
00:19:13,740 --> 00:19:14,760
was not sensitive

458
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:15,260
to the fact

459
00:19:15,260 --> 00:19:16,340
that you are a star

460
00:19:16,340 --> 00:19:16,900
and had to be

461
00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:17,600
in the studio

462
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:18,520
I'm like

463
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:19,060
I'm like

464
00:19:19,060 --> 00:19:19,820
take your time

465
00:19:19,820 --> 00:19:20,440
I don't want to

466
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:21,440
I don't want to rush

467
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:22,740
to the job of my car

468
00:19:22,740 --> 00:19:23,700
I just wanted to know

469
00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:24,080
like

470
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:25,540
do I need to take an Uber

471
00:19:25,540 --> 00:19:26,600
and they kept saying

472
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:27,740
well your car will be ready

473
00:19:27,740 --> 00:19:28,360
and I'm like okay

474
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:29,420
and also Uber

475
00:19:29,420 --> 00:19:30,240
like don't they have

476
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:30,720
like Tesla

477
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:31,900
like RoboTaxi ready

478
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:32,680
yeah

479
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:33,880
seriously

480
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:34,480
I mean

481
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:35,080
is that live

482
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:36,660
not here

483
00:19:36,660 --> 00:19:37,840
not outside of San Francisco

484
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:38,260
okay

485
00:19:38,260 --> 00:19:41,980
I think all cars drive themselves as of 2018 or something.

486
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,560
Well, I do generally drive my car in self-driving mode,

487
00:19:46,780 --> 00:19:48,700
and it's fantastic, but it's in the shop

488
00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:51,100
because the camera's not calibrated.

489
00:19:51,340 --> 00:19:54,680
And so I've actually not had self-driving

490
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:56,300
in the last two weeks, and it drives me crazy.

491
00:19:57,020 --> 00:20:00,320
Once you get acclimated to it,

492
00:20:00,860 --> 00:20:04,260
it feels like you're a century behind

493
00:20:04,260 --> 00:20:06,300
when you go back and you actually have to drive your car.

494
00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:09,680
I see your ill-fated attempt to dunk on Elon, DK.

495
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,000
Sorry, that's not it.

496
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:13,560
For selling our attention, sure.

497
00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:15,860
With that same service center.

498
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:18,100
I would say I'm balanced.

499
00:20:18,180 --> 00:20:18,940
I'm not a hater.

500
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,480
I own a Tesla, but I don't.

501
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:21,860
But man, that service center.

502
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,480
I'm sorry to question this thesis from DK.

503
00:20:24,980 --> 00:20:25,800
I'm not a hater.

504
00:20:25,980 --> 00:20:27,000
I just hate on Elon.

505
00:20:27,220 --> 00:20:29,040
No, I bought the car.

506
00:20:29,140 --> 00:20:29,620
I like the car.

507
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:30,500
It's a good car.

508
00:20:30,940 --> 00:20:32,400
But man, the service center.

509
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:40,300
so matt newell says did i tell tesla that we have seven viewers on youtube and that's a funny

510
00:20:40,300 --> 00:20:48,000
comment i love it um but i did not yeah however i will say i interviewed a candidate for a job

511
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:54,700
this morning and they told me they love pbj and are avid watcher so let's go as you would say if

512
00:20:54,700 --> 00:20:59,100
you were interviewing for a job yeah you might be listening right now so this is like that one time

513
00:20:59,100 --> 00:20:59,960
Steve was telling us something.

514
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,520
He was like, hey, guys, you're not going to believe this,

515
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:02,840
but everyone on my team agrees.

516
00:21:03,020 --> 00:21:03,460
He's like, okay.

517
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:08,320
Who's signing those checks?

518
00:21:10,780 --> 00:21:11,100
Anyhow.

519
00:21:11,620 --> 00:21:11,860
Okay.

520
00:21:11,980 --> 00:21:12,360
Good times.

521
00:21:12,780 --> 00:21:14,760
Should we get to some of the news?

522
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:15,220
Yeah.

523
00:21:16,980 --> 00:21:19,460
Well, I think a pretty quick and easy one would be Walmart.

524
00:21:19,900 --> 00:21:20,860
You want to start with Walmart?

525
00:21:21,620 --> 00:21:23,400
Because the news sounded exciting.

526
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,440
Walmart accepts Bitcoin now.

527
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:25,760
Okay.

528
00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:28,980
I mean, they're the biggest retailer in the U.S.

529
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:29,940
big deal.

530
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:31,840
What does it really mean?

531
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,040
Well, actually, I mean, we'll

532
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,160
talk about that, but I came up with a new

533
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,200
litmus test, too. What it means to

534
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:39,420
like,

535
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:42,520
whether something's, whether

536
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,280
an announcement is interesting or not.

537
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:46,280
If it matters, yeah.

538
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:48,860
And so, accepting Bitcoin,

539
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:50,960
the litmus test is

540
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,120
can you use any Bitcoin

541
00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:55,020
wallet to pay? Yeah, that's a good one.

542
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,300
Or at least any, like, you know, Bolt 11

543
00:21:57,300 --> 00:21:59,540
or Lightning-based Bitcoin wallets.

544
00:21:59,540 --> 00:22:00,480
Most Bitcoin wallets, yeah.

545
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:01,620
Most Bitcoin wallets, right?

546
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,260
And is the answer yes or no?

547
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,120
Well, in the case of Walmart, the answer is no.

548
00:22:06,260 --> 00:22:08,260
You can only pay with OnePay,

549
00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:09,580
which is their own company,

550
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,860
or it's like a subsidiary or something, app.

551
00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:16,380
And even that doesn't even use the Bitcoin network

552
00:22:16,380 --> 00:22:18,440
or Lightning network or anything.

553
00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:21,780
It's just you literally have to buy Bitcoin in OnePay.

554
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,180
And then when you go to Walmart and buy something,

555
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:25,820
they sell your Bitcoin,

556
00:22:25,820 --> 00:22:27,520
turn it in dollars

557
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:27,880
and then

558
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:29,140
pay Walmart

559
00:22:29,140 --> 00:22:29,720
so there's literally

560
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:30,760
nothing to do with Bitcoin

561
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:31,720
I mean

562
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:32,600
other than

563
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:32,960
like

564
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:33,340
other than

565
00:22:33,340 --> 00:22:34,960
they say they buy and sell

566
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:45,838
buying and selling Bitcoin through nice hash okay because they partnered with nice hash okay but they not using Bitcoin in any way shape or form of the transaction So literally all they doing is they saying

567
00:22:45,918 --> 00:22:48,197
over here, you trust us to buy and sell Bitcoin for you.

568
00:22:48,237 --> 00:22:51,298
When we sell it, we'll take dollars and pay dollars on the other end.

569
00:22:51,538 --> 00:22:51,717
Yeah.

570
00:22:53,457 --> 00:22:54,798
I'm not a fan of this approach,

571
00:22:54,798 --> 00:22:59,138
but I do want to sort of steelman the benefits to Bitcoin that this creates,

572
00:22:59,258 --> 00:23:04,358
which is there are people out there who are Walmart customers

573
00:23:04,358 --> 00:23:05,918
who have this OnePay app

574
00:23:05,918 --> 00:23:08,158
and who don't have a Coinbase account

575
00:23:08,158 --> 00:23:11,118
or don't have any other process right now

576
00:23:11,118 --> 00:23:13,178
that has them convenient exposure to Bitcoin.

577
00:23:13,697 --> 00:23:15,717
And so they may become a little more curious about Bitcoin

578
00:23:15,717 --> 00:23:17,057
if they can hold it,

579
00:23:17,418 --> 00:23:19,038
see some price exposure in the app,

580
00:23:19,358 --> 00:23:21,197
and then they can pay smaller amounts

581
00:23:21,197 --> 00:23:23,118
from what they had originally put in

582
00:23:23,118 --> 00:23:24,518
because they saw the price appreciate.

583
00:23:25,138 --> 00:23:27,018
I wouldn't defend it as good.

584
00:23:27,318 --> 00:23:28,977
I'm still sort of on your side,

585
00:23:29,178 --> 00:23:31,538
like, nah, this is kind of like a toothless announcement.

586
00:23:32,138 --> 00:23:33,098
But just to sort of,

587
00:23:33,098 --> 00:23:34,697
I think there's some good in it.

588
00:23:35,018 --> 00:23:36,957
Well, I think the good is rather obvious.

589
00:23:37,217 --> 00:23:38,158
It's an exchange.

590
00:23:38,938 --> 00:23:43,697
Now more people that have a Walmart app can buy Bitcoin.

591
00:23:44,638 --> 00:23:46,938
Also note that I didn't say it was bad.

592
00:23:47,918 --> 00:23:49,638
My litmus test is for interesting.

593
00:23:50,378 --> 00:23:52,957
So I don't think it's that interesting of news.

594
00:23:53,518 --> 00:23:54,717
I don't think it hurts Bitcoin.

595
00:23:54,838 --> 00:23:59,237
I think it helps Bitcoin, but it doesn't really enable Bitcoin payments in any interesting way.

596
00:23:59,477 --> 00:24:00,477
Well, it's just mislabeled.

597
00:24:00,477 --> 00:24:01,938
The news is just mislabeled.

598
00:24:01,938 --> 00:24:05,878
A better announcement would be Walmart's payment app allows you to buy a big one.

599
00:24:06,957 --> 00:24:07,058
Yeah.

600
00:24:08,598 --> 00:24:11,598
And then quote spend it at Walmart.

601
00:24:11,878 --> 00:24:15,398
Now, one question I do have on the spending that makes us slightly more interesting is,

602
00:24:15,398 --> 00:24:18,098
do they handle all the theoretical tax stuff for you?

603
00:24:19,378 --> 00:24:19,977
Theoretical.

604
00:24:20,858 --> 00:24:22,398
Yeah, that's actually...

605
00:24:22,957 --> 00:24:25,197
Nobody ever told me they were theoretical.

606
00:24:27,558 --> 00:24:29,018
No comment.

607
00:24:31,938 --> 00:24:39,237
I just filled out Alex's Presidio Bitcoin survey for members.

608
00:24:39,438 --> 00:24:40,578
I didn't even see that yet.

609
00:24:41,378 --> 00:24:42,178
Oh, you should.

610
00:24:42,338 --> 00:24:42,818
It's fun.

611
00:24:43,058 --> 00:24:43,217
Yeah.

612
00:24:43,418 --> 00:24:46,398
Alex came up with a lot of fun questions.

613
00:24:46,538 --> 00:24:48,977
If it's in the Discord, I don't check Discord at all.

614
00:24:48,977 --> 00:24:51,697
As you know, and now you understand why.

615
00:24:52,818 --> 00:24:53,578
Well, a couple of things.

616
00:24:53,737 --> 00:24:55,798
So first of all, awesome survey.

617
00:24:55,938 --> 00:24:58,258
Tons of categories for members.

618
00:24:58,258 --> 00:24:59,838
but one of them is like, I forget

619
00:24:59,838 --> 00:25:02,678
who's most likely to be audited

620
00:25:02,678 --> 00:25:04,578
by the IRS, I think is one of them.

621
00:25:06,078 --> 00:25:06,498
So now,

622
00:25:06,638 --> 00:25:08,518
no, now I'm going to change

623
00:25:08,518 --> 00:25:10,638
my answer from DK to Max.

624
00:25:11,858 --> 00:25:13,118
Why would I

625
00:25:13,118 --> 00:25:13,618
be audited?

626
00:25:14,118 --> 00:25:15,098
I'm staying with DK.

627
00:25:15,098 --> 00:25:15,998
What did I do?

628
00:25:16,118 --> 00:25:18,118
Hey man.

629
00:25:20,318 --> 00:25:20,798
Anyhow.

630
00:25:21,598 --> 00:25:22,778
Anything shady?

631
00:25:24,598 --> 00:25:26,098
I don't know.

632
00:25:26,498 --> 00:25:27,378
Another reason,

633
00:25:27,378 --> 00:25:30,798
to check

634
00:25:30,798 --> 00:25:32,957
the Presidio Bitcoin member

635
00:25:32,957 --> 00:25:34,118
Discord is we have

636
00:25:34,118 --> 00:25:36,178
AMAs now.

637
00:25:36,898 --> 00:25:39,237
Jack Dorsey. You told me about that.

638
00:25:39,237 --> 00:25:41,318
I knew if it was important enough you would message me.

639
00:25:41,477 --> 00:25:43,217
Jack Dorsey swung by

640
00:25:43,217 --> 00:25:45,298
yesterday. That was dope.

641
00:25:45,658 --> 00:25:47,518
And we did an AMA with him

642
00:25:47,518 --> 00:25:49,398
with members of Presidio Bitcoin

643
00:25:49,398 --> 00:25:51,358
and I thought it went really well. Good vibe.

644
00:25:51,957 --> 00:25:53,237
It wasn't, I mean, he was asking

645
00:25:53,237 --> 00:25:54,957
questions of

646
00:25:54,957 --> 00:25:57,217
people here and I thought it was good.

647
00:25:57,378 --> 00:25:59,457
I mean, it was more of a dialogue.

648
00:25:59,858 --> 00:26:00,118
It was.

649
00:26:00,898 --> 00:26:02,078
I wasn't there.

650
00:26:02,158 --> 00:26:05,618
Is there anything you can share about interesting topics that maybe he hadn't?

651
00:26:05,618 --> 00:26:07,298
I don't think he would have any issues.

652
00:26:07,957 --> 00:26:08,398
Yeah, we didn't.

653
00:26:08,678 --> 00:26:08,838
Yeah.

654
00:26:09,098 --> 00:26:09,378
Well, okay.

655
00:26:09,398 --> 00:26:12,418
So before we jump into that, because I have a lot of thoughts on that, I guess a question

656
00:26:12,418 --> 00:26:15,038
for you, because Steve made that happen, which was awesome.

657
00:26:15,158 --> 00:26:15,858
Thank you for doing that.

658
00:26:15,898 --> 00:26:16,398
It was super cool.

659
00:26:16,858 --> 00:26:18,018
What inspired you?

660
00:26:18,918 --> 00:26:20,737
You've never been like, hey, we're doing an AMA before.

661
00:26:20,798 --> 00:26:22,338
And then you're just like, yo, come on first.

662
00:26:23,098 --> 00:26:26,778
Like a lot of initiatives, I start very serendipitous, random.

663
00:26:26,778 --> 00:26:27,138
Yeah.

664
00:26:27,138 --> 00:26:34,158
We think of things on this show, like Builder, and then now we have a monthly Builder meetup that's spread to five cities around the world, right?

665
00:26:34,538 --> 00:26:40,717
So Jack had let me know that he's going to visit San Francisco this week.

666
00:26:40,778 --> 00:26:45,118
And I'm like, oh, what's a good reason for him to swing by Pristidia Bitcoin?

667
00:26:45,398 --> 00:26:48,818
He'd already been on Haley's 21 and 21 show, so probably not do that again.

668
00:26:50,618 --> 00:26:53,318
And I know that he likes to do AMAs.

669
00:26:54,258 --> 00:26:56,578
So I felt he'd be comfortable with that.

670
00:26:57,138 --> 00:26:58,138
that format.

671
00:26:58,697 --> 00:27:00,178
So I suggested, hey,

672
00:27:00,578 --> 00:27:01,977
you want to swing by and do an AMA?

673
00:27:02,278 --> 00:27:03,977
And we'll just do members.

674
00:27:04,338 --> 00:27:05,838
We had about 20 people.

675
00:27:06,338 --> 00:27:08,058
It was like the right amount of people.

676
00:27:08,438 --> 00:27:10,578
It was still intimate

677
00:27:10,578 --> 00:27:11,858
and everyone got to speak

678
00:27:11,858 --> 00:27:14,578
and everyone got to introduce themselves

679
00:27:14,578 --> 00:27:16,898
so he got to know who he's chatting with.

680
00:27:18,798 --> 00:27:21,258
So yeah, he said yes

681
00:27:21,258 --> 00:27:22,457
and then we did it.

682
00:27:22,638 --> 00:27:23,717
But then, yeah, I mean,

683
00:27:23,717 --> 00:27:25,558
we chatted with Alex

684
00:27:25,558 --> 00:27:26,998
and people here

685
00:27:26,998 --> 00:27:28,838
and we're going to try to do this more regularly.

686
00:27:29,217 --> 00:27:29,658
I love it.

687
00:27:29,678 --> 00:27:33,237
And it doesn't have to be people as prominent as Jack,

688
00:27:33,418 --> 00:27:35,378
but we want interesting people here,

689
00:27:35,477 --> 00:27:36,598
people we can learn from.

690
00:27:38,558 --> 00:27:41,418
And so hopefully we create a cadence

691
00:27:41,418 --> 00:27:44,118
where we have folks coming through here

692
00:27:44,118 --> 00:27:44,938
at least once a quarter,

693
00:27:45,058 --> 00:27:46,898
if not even more frequently for AMAs.

694
00:27:47,038 --> 00:27:47,538
I loved it.

695
00:27:47,538 --> 00:27:49,858
And it was super cool because,

696
00:27:50,138 --> 00:27:51,318
and I was wondering where the hell it was DK.

697
00:27:51,438 --> 00:27:52,477
Now I understand you're out of town,

698
00:27:52,578 --> 00:27:55,138
but this was very, very sweet.

699
00:27:55,138 --> 00:27:57,778
one thing that I liked about it was

700
00:27:57,778 --> 00:28:01,518
I guess because it was off the record

701
00:28:01,518 --> 00:28:03,477
and small I don't know I mean like Jack is like

702
00:28:03,477 --> 00:28:05,618
seems like he's always an open guy but

703
00:28:05,618 --> 00:28:07,578
I don't know like this was the most candidate

704
00:28:07,578 --> 00:28:09,258
I've ever heard him yesterday and it was

705
00:28:09,258 --> 00:28:11,498
I don't know like I certainly asked

706
00:28:11,498 --> 00:28:13,678
questions I thought were maybe you know

707
00:28:13,678 --> 00:28:15,578
probably wouldn't get asked on

708
00:28:15,578 --> 00:28:17,058
an investor day at Block and expect

709
00:28:17,058 --> 00:28:19,598
an answer from and he gave a lot of just like super

710
00:28:19,598 --> 00:28:21,578
frank answers which I thought was super cool so

711
00:28:21,578 --> 00:28:23,578
I mean shock Jack

712
00:28:23,578 --> 00:28:24,878
continues to be a cool guy but

713
00:28:25,138 --> 00:28:26,278
Yeah, it was great.

714
00:28:26,798 --> 00:28:26,878
Yeah.

715
00:28:27,618 --> 00:28:31,498
I mean, to me, it's not surprising because I've interacted with him a lot for six years now.

716
00:28:32,018 --> 00:28:38,538
But yeah, I mean, most people in the room don't have that access or whatever.

717
00:28:38,678 --> 00:28:45,018
But yeah, he's super authentic and he does not equivocate.

718
00:28:45,338 --> 00:28:48,138
Like what he says one place, he'll say another place.

719
00:28:48,237 --> 00:28:52,138
He'll say in public, he'll say to investors, he'll say to a group of Bitcoiners.

720
00:28:52,138 --> 00:28:55,778
So I always, I appreciate that.

721
00:28:56,058 --> 00:29:01,418
Any big takeaways from the AMA or anything that like, I don't know, captured your fancy?

722
00:29:03,178 --> 00:29:03,858
I don't know.

723
00:29:03,918 --> 00:29:05,457
I'd turn it around to you.

724
00:29:05,678 --> 00:29:05,898
Yeah.

725
00:29:06,078 --> 00:29:07,638
I mean, I thought a couple of things.

726
00:29:08,658 --> 00:29:12,898
And again, I don't, I mean, I don't know if there's anything you shouldn't say, but I,

727
00:29:13,018 --> 00:29:17,278
I think a couple of things that stuck out to me.

728
00:29:17,398 --> 00:29:21,237
One, it's interesting to hear Jack thinking about AI and AGI.

729
00:29:21,237 --> 00:29:23,977
We knew he was already a fan of Demis in Google.

730
00:29:24,178 --> 00:29:26,078
He's a big Demis guy, which I thought was cool.

731
00:29:26,237 --> 00:29:27,258
I don't think that's a surprise.

732
00:29:27,378 --> 00:29:28,298
He's retweeted him and stuff.

733
00:29:29,278 --> 00:29:30,217
I think it was interesting.

734
00:29:30,778 --> 00:29:38,418
He was very open and candid about, frankly, as all in and excited as I am about Bitcoin,

735
00:29:38,977 --> 00:29:43,237
I do think it's important to recognize, and I don't say this necessarily all in a negative

736
00:29:43,237 --> 00:29:46,717
way, but the black swan risk, because it's not necessarily bad, because there's white

737
00:29:46,717 --> 00:29:47,737
swan risk here too.

738
00:29:47,737 --> 00:29:53,398
But like, you know, apparently Demis' position on Bitcoin has kind of been, it's not necessary

739
00:29:53,398 --> 00:29:54,058
post-AGI.

740
00:29:54,758 --> 00:29:57,258
And I don't fully agree with that.

741
00:29:57,358 --> 00:29:58,717
Sounds like Jack doesn't fully agree with that.

742
00:29:58,798 --> 00:30:01,618
We all think there's probably going to be market of intelligence and lots of different

743
00:30:01,618 --> 00:30:03,018
kind of intelligences that emerge.

744
00:30:03,598 --> 00:30:09,358
But I also am open to this idea that like, I don't know, like I think it's good to keep

745
00:30:09,358 --> 00:30:11,318
a certain amount of humility and open-mindedness.

746
00:30:11,398 --> 00:30:12,717
Like we could be wrong on certain things.

747
00:30:12,798 --> 00:30:14,518
There are changes that happen in the world.

748
00:30:14,518 --> 00:30:20,418
And like, you know, if in the future, you know, if you're super AGI pilled, and by the

749
00:30:20,418 --> 00:30:23,697
way, I am only more and more AGI pilled as the time goes on.

750
00:30:23,778 --> 00:30:26,457
And the reason is because everyone's like, oh, you know, is it a bubble?

751
00:30:26,538 --> 00:30:27,178
It ain't no bubble.

752
00:30:27,678 --> 00:30:30,737
We haven't even seen the gigawatt cluster runs yet, bro.

753
00:30:31,118 --> 00:30:33,498
Like we're still at the hundreds of megawatt cluster runs.

754
00:30:33,558 --> 00:30:36,498
Everyone's like, whoa, you know, and like, even if there is a little bubble, like, you

755
00:30:36,498 --> 00:30:38,378
know, it's going to be a blip, like a blip.

756
00:30:38,518 --> 00:30:44,338
And so if you're really scaling law pilled and all this improvement we've seen, you know,

757
00:30:44,338 --> 00:30:46,018
in the last like two or three years,

758
00:30:46,078 --> 00:30:46,697
whatever it's been,

759
00:30:46,878 --> 00:30:49,038
is without the base model runs

760
00:30:49,038 --> 00:30:50,338
at the gigawatt cluster run.

761
00:30:50,398 --> 00:30:51,378
I don't think people get that.

762
00:30:51,717 --> 00:30:53,278
Like we've seen all of this improvement

763
00:30:53,278 --> 00:30:55,158
with post-training stuff,

764
00:30:55,237 --> 00:30:57,038
with reasoning, inference time compute.

765
00:30:57,237 --> 00:30:59,858
It's without going from the 100 megawatt scale

766
00:30:59,858 --> 00:31:01,278
to the gigawatt scale clusters.

767
00:31:01,278 --> 00:31:02,298
But we still might,

768
00:31:02,618 --> 00:31:05,298
it might, once energy is no longer,

769
00:31:05,818 --> 00:31:08,818
we might find that it's no longer the bottleneck.

770
00:31:09,018 --> 00:31:09,258
Yes.

771
00:31:09,418 --> 00:31:10,678
And I have no idea.

772
00:31:10,938 --> 00:31:14,038
But like, it doesn't necessarily keep scaling.

773
00:31:14,338 --> 00:31:15,838
with as energy scales?

774
00:31:15,977 --> 00:31:16,898
It doesn't necessarily,

775
00:31:17,318 --> 00:31:18,798
but one, this is like...

776
00:31:18,798 --> 00:31:20,498
It meaning like the current techniques.

777
00:31:20,758 --> 00:31:20,938
Sure.

778
00:31:21,338 --> 00:31:23,298
We might have to find new techniques,

779
00:31:23,658 --> 00:31:25,498
which might take another 10 or 20 years.

780
00:31:25,737 --> 00:31:28,098
We might, but my kind of take on this,

781
00:31:28,178 --> 00:31:30,158
and if people want to see my little talk

782
00:31:30,158 --> 00:31:31,038
from the Type 1 Summit,

783
00:31:31,318 --> 00:31:34,438
I gave a 12-minute talk with a meme

784
00:31:34,438 --> 00:31:36,618
that I need to refine that meme.

785
00:31:36,737 --> 00:31:37,378
I'm very proud.

786
00:31:37,477 --> 00:31:38,118
This is one of the memes.

787
00:31:38,538 --> 00:31:39,158
And by the way,

788
00:31:39,358 --> 00:31:40,697
if I ever end around a repli

789
00:31:40,697 --> 00:31:42,038
and doing vibe coding

790
00:31:42,038 --> 00:31:43,658
and Nick and Matt one day,

791
00:31:43,658 --> 00:31:47,858
I want the meme generator, but the meme is basically, you know, the, the, the curve,

792
00:31:48,018 --> 00:31:51,977
the bell curve where it's like, the dude on the left is like, just trust the curve. The dude on

793
00:31:51,977 --> 00:31:55,118
the right is like, just trust the curve. And then the dude in the middle is like, no, this won't

794
00:31:55,118 --> 00:31:59,798
work. It's like, I, I'm probably the dude on the left. Exactly. I'm probably the dude on the left,

795
00:31:59,858 --> 00:32:06,518
but I'm like, look, man, like zoom out even beyond, um, you know, the current architectures

796
00:32:06,518 --> 00:32:11,078
like transformers. If you go back to Hans Moravec in the seventies, Hans Moravec is just like,

797
00:32:11,078 --> 00:32:17,518
like the the energy and compute theory of everything and like yes there were many breakthroughs that

798
00:32:17,518 --> 00:32:23,477
happened you know since he made his observations in the 70s like we had to figure out llms we had

799
00:32:23,477 --> 00:32:28,018
to figure out transformers but this is where i guess i get a little woo woo and like i don't mind

800
00:32:28,018 --> 00:32:31,278
being woo woo it's like i just think that's god the universe whatever you want to call it and like

801
00:32:31,278 --> 00:32:36,138
that's how it manifests the breakthroughs will happen and a lot of like pure materialist rational

802
00:32:36,138 --> 00:32:40,237
but that's impossible i'm like cool i mean you can express that thesis as you wish i'm going to

803
00:32:40,237 --> 00:32:44,878
express my thesis based on my woo-woo views, but the breakthroughs keep happening. It's the same

804
00:32:44,878 --> 00:32:48,098
with Moore's Law. Why did Moore's Law curve keep happening? It just kept happening. Everyone's like,

805
00:32:48,098 --> 00:32:53,457
well, we may not get the engineering, but they capped. Anyways, so my point is, that's a much

806
00:32:53,457 --> 00:32:58,338
longer conversation, but the broader point is something I'm having more humility about as much

807
00:32:58,338 --> 00:33:05,457
as I think that Bitcoin matters as energy-backed currency for these agents is many orders of

808
00:33:05,457 --> 00:33:10,477
magnitude beyond where we are in terms of compute, that's the singularity. And, you know, beyond that,

809
00:33:10,578 --> 00:33:14,217
like there is a world where these intelligences, maybe they don't even use our old protocols.

810
00:33:14,338 --> 00:33:18,518
Maybe they don't use TCP IP. Maybe they don't need the web. Maybe they don't need any of the

811
00:33:18,518 --> 00:33:21,818
stuff that we, it's like, we're like cavemen swinging sticks and we're trying to guess what

812
00:33:21,818 --> 00:33:26,638
it's going to look like. I think given the information we have on the ground today and

813
00:33:26,638 --> 00:33:31,737
given, you know, sort of my belief that Bitcoin is energy money, you know, we have not figured out

814
00:33:31,737 --> 00:33:36,618
ways to break the fundamental laws of thermodynamics. So as long as we have that,

815
00:33:36,717 --> 00:33:40,138
I think Bitcoin is going to be really relevant for these agents. That's clearly where I would put my

816
00:33:40,138 --> 00:33:47,158
money metaphorically and realistically. However, I also don't rule out the possibility that these

817
00:33:47,158 --> 00:33:51,598
guys might find new laws of physics and stuff that we just, yeah, I mean, we were like little

818
00:33:51,598 --> 00:33:56,838
monkeys and we didn't know. Anyway, so it was interesting to me to hear Jack be certainly not

819
00:33:56,838 --> 00:34:01,818
bearish on Bitcoin, but at least also open this idea of like, yeah, I mean, at that point,

820
00:34:01,858 --> 00:34:06,658
once we go to the singularity, it's like, we don't know. Yeah, I think the timeframe matters,

821
00:34:06,658 --> 00:34:12,818
really. So like, if you know that AGI is guaranteed happening in, you know, 18 months,

822
00:34:13,218 --> 00:34:19,357
then I could be more agreeable that let's not waste our time with Bitcoin. If it's 10 or 20 years,

823
00:34:19,758 --> 00:34:25,418
and there's a bit of a slow takeoff or other big technological changes that need to happen before

824
00:34:25,418 --> 00:34:30,138
we get there, then like you kind of want to be able to marshal resources.

825
00:34:30,298 --> 00:34:32,857
And effectively money is just like the allocation of resources, right?

826
00:34:32,877 --> 00:34:34,298
It's like a ledger to allocate resources.

827
00:34:34,657 --> 00:34:34,918
Yes.

828
00:34:34,977 --> 00:34:35,798
Whether it's energy backed.

829
00:34:35,918 --> 00:34:37,918
I mean, the only real one is the energy backed one.

830
00:34:37,998 --> 00:34:41,337
But like what we're trying to do whenever we create fiat monies even is we're trying

831
00:34:41,337 --> 00:34:43,018
to allocate resources better.

832
00:34:43,698 --> 00:34:45,638
And critically scarce resources.

833
00:34:46,337 --> 00:34:46,857
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

834
00:34:46,857 --> 00:34:49,357
If the resource is not scarce, too cheap to meter, it doesn't matter.

835
00:34:49,857 --> 00:34:50,298
Yeah, yeah.

836
00:34:50,298 --> 00:34:59,318
So I think the negative, the sort of bear case on Bitcoin would be that all resources and all energy and needs become too cheap to matter.

837
00:34:59,738 --> 00:35:02,957
And I think there's like a reasonable shot that that happens at some point.

838
00:35:03,337 --> 00:35:07,118
But it's probably not like in 18 months, right?

839
00:35:07,918 --> 00:35:08,558
Steve disagrees.

840
00:35:08,558 --> 00:35:29,477
I don't agree because like human, like human nature is to like, there'll be artificial scarcity in the sense that like part of like your identity, like whether it's through fashion or the type of car you drive or you're always looking for some kind of unique edge to like demonstrate your personality.

841
00:35:29,477 --> 00:35:42,337
So if literally everything is infinite, I mean, even like the friends you have, like social groups or your girlfriend or wife or spouse or whatever, like that's scarce.

842
00:35:45,078 --> 00:35:59,118
So I don't see, I mean, I definitely see a world where things that have been costly before become effectively no cost and abundant for sure, but not everything.

843
00:35:59,118 --> 00:36:12,938
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, as long as we're in this finite dimension, I tend to agree. But I guess what I'm saying is like my like, whatever, 99% cases, I agree with you, and that's probably what's going to happen. But I increasingly leave open the possibility of just being shocked.

844
00:36:12,938 --> 00:36:16,938
one more thing that we talked about at the AMA

845
00:36:16,938 --> 00:36:17,518
was

846
00:36:17,518 --> 00:36:20,778
you know the digital gold

847
00:36:20,778 --> 00:36:22,638
store value narrative just being the

848
00:36:22,638 --> 00:36:24,418
dominant narrative we talked about in this show

849
00:36:24,418 --> 00:36:25,058
a lot

850
00:36:25,058 --> 00:36:28,618
but I mean this isn't like a shocking

851
00:36:28,618 --> 00:36:30,718
statement but you know Jack did say that he feels

852
00:36:30,718 --> 00:36:32,718
like Bitcoin as an everyday money

853
00:36:32,718 --> 00:36:33,857
payments is

854
00:36:33,857 --> 00:36:36,718
headed in the wrong direction over time

855
00:36:36,718 --> 00:36:38,677
like it's not getting

856
00:36:38,677 --> 00:36:40,738
better over time it's getting worse over

857
00:36:40,738 --> 00:36:42,477
time worse in terms of

858
00:36:42,477 --> 00:36:43,218
How is it getting worse?

859
00:36:44,998 --> 00:36:47,058
Narrative, mind share.

860
00:36:49,058 --> 00:36:50,138
I mean, MDK.

861
00:36:50,618 --> 00:36:54,357
I mean, it's small and early, but like that kind of stuff seems to be.

862
00:36:54,498 --> 00:36:55,778
I mean, and we're going to talk about MDK.

863
00:36:55,918 --> 00:36:58,677
I mean, yes, the three of us are advocates.

864
00:36:59,818 --> 00:37:01,857
But not just advocates.

865
00:37:01,857 --> 00:37:03,438
You built something, Steve.

866
00:37:04,738 --> 00:37:06,018
Oh, yeah, I want to hear about that.

867
00:37:06,018 --> 00:37:11,818
David, how much money in the world is allocated towards Bitcoin and store value versus MDK?

868
00:37:12,477 --> 00:37:14,357
How many people in the world know of Bitcoin?

869
00:37:14,357 --> 00:37:18,238
Wait, so are you sad more people are using store of value now?

870
00:37:20,258 --> 00:37:21,538
No, it's just that progress.

871
00:37:21,998 --> 00:37:22,998
That's just a form of progress.

872
00:37:23,298 --> 00:37:25,738
No, this is not a hate on the store of value narrative.

873
00:37:26,118 --> 00:37:29,038
It's just that the store of value narrative is the dominant narrative

874
00:37:29,038 --> 00:37:32,177
and continues to grow in dominance over time, even today.

875
00:37:32,177 --> 00:37:38,977
I would maybe frame it as for the people that even give a shit about Bitcoin,

876
00:37:39,337 --> 00:37:41,998
over time, the narrative has grown more and more.

877
00:37:41,998 --> 00:37:45,957
In the early days, it was purely this is going to be what Satoshi said, peer-to-peer cash.

878
00:37:47,038 --> 00:37:52,018
Over time, it has grown more and more to this is a store of value of the people that care.

879
00:37:52,337 --> 00:37:53,977
It doesn't mean that's not going to change over time.

880
00:37:54,078 --> 00:37:56,578
I think that's mostly because way more people care now.

881
00:37:57,118 --> 00:37:57,418
That's fair.

882
00:37:57,738 --> 00:38:01,718
Huge frontier of new people who care, and they only care for store of value, and they only care for a number to go up.

883
00:38:02,157 --> 00:38:07,457
But the absolute number of humans who are engaged in payments today, that must be higher than it was 10 years ago.

884
00:38:08,118 --> 00:38:10,038
Yeah, I'm actually not sure on that because it's still true.

885
00:38:10,038 --> 00:38:10,957
From six to eight.

886
00:38:11,138 --> 00:38:11,618
Is that true?

887
00:38:11,618 --> 00:38:12,677
I mean, I'm serious.

888
00:38:13,218 --> 00:38:14,938
Or that might be true.

889
00:38:15,098 --> 00:38:18,738
And even if it is true, it's tiny numbers.

890
00:38:19,098 --> 00:38:19,578
Yeah, it's tiny.

891
00:38:20,198 --> 00:38:20,638
Regardless.

892
00:38:21,038 --> 00:38:23,538
The payment era of Bitcoin payments.

893
00:38:23,857 --> 00:38:30,337
So, and I think that's going to bridge us soon to two very, well, Freudian slip there, I guess, but I'm going to get at it.

894
00:38:30,357 --> 00:38:38,278
I think it's going to bridge us very soon to talking about both MDK and this kind of like the new sailor-back stablecoin stuff, which I've been thinking a lot about.

895
00:38:38,278 --> 00:38:51,618
But another maybe way I would frame this is of people that care at all in technology circles, I would say probably in the 2011, 2012, 2013 era, I was not around.

896
00:38:51,798 --> 00:38:55,457
But my understanding is VCs were backing things like BitPay.

897
00:38:56,038 --> 00:38:59,798
And they were thinking this is a peer-to-peer payment technology.

898
00:39:00,318 --> 00:39:07,357
Today, if you serve it, and I would assume that a lot of, call it normie VCs, were at least open to this idea of like, oh yeah, Bitcoin.

899
00:39:07,357 --> 00:39:14,177
It's that internet payment thing. Whereas all those companies effectively have been duds or

900
00:39:14,177 --> 00:39:22,357
zeros or pretty small. And now companies in the traditional tech circles that are seen as peer

901
00:39:22,357 --> 00:39:26,418
to peer payments or like the internet payments with companies like Bridge, which get acquired

902
00:39:26,418 --> 00:39:31,377
by Stripe for a billion dollars. And so I would say in sort of mainstream tech circles, Bitcoin

903
00:39:31,377 --> 00:39:37,758
maybe had a moment where people saw it as payment technology that transitioned to stable coins which

904
00:39:37,758 --> 00:39:44,877
the volume for that is real um and yeah at least in the quote-unquote you know silicon valley talk

905
00:39:44,877 --> 00:39:51,658
that's i mean i would sort of i would severely diminish the importance of like yeah what's worth

906
00:39:51,658 --> 00:39:55,837
investing in or whatever it's more like what are people actually using using sure and like and and

907
00:39:55,837 --> 00:39:59,957
people are using stable coins at a much larger rate for payments oh yeah yeah i'm not saying that

908
00:39:59,957 --> 00:40:02,038
Bitcoin payments is beating stablecoins. I'm saying that

909
00:40:02,038 --> 00:40:04,178
Bitcoin payments, we may be at the dawn of Bitcoin

910
00:40:04,178 --> 00:40:06,078
payments, and one piece of evidence I would bring is

911
00:40:06,078 --> 00:40:08,158
I think it was at the Vegas conference, wasn't Miles

912
00:40:08,158 --> 00:40:10,518
up on stage saying that doesn't

913
00:40:10,518 --> 00:40:12,118
block generate 10%

914
00:40:12,118 --> 00:40:13,977
return on

915
00:40:13,977 --> 00:40:15,918
liquidity from lightning channels and stuff?

916
00:40:15,998 --> 00:40:17,578
I mean, that's usage, right?

917
00:40:18,678 --> 00:40:19,337
But again,

918
00:40:19,658 --> 00:40:22,238
what I'm saying, what Max is saying,

919
00:40:22,337 --> 00:40:23,857
and I think, I mean, it's not like

920
00:40:23,857 --> 00:40:26,058
Jack turned bearish. I mean, he

921
00:40:26,058 --> 00:40:26,598
is the

922
00:40:26,598 --> 00:40:31,977
He is very much bullish and an advocate for Bitcoin payments.

923
00:40:33,398 --> 00:40:37,398
And also, we talk about all kinds of things on the show.

924
00:40:37,518 --> 00:40:40,998
We're going to talk about more things today on the show about reasons to be optimistic.

925
00:40:41,218 --> 00:40:42,198
And we are at the dawn.

926
00:40:42,457 --> 00:40:46,998
But I think it's undebatable that to date, it's losing.

927
00:40:47,857 --> 00:40:49,638
It's losing to stablecoins.

928
00:40:49,798 --> 00:40:51,278
It's losing to the story narrative.

929
00:40:51,498 --> 00:40:53,058
Relative to what it was 10 years ago.

930
00:40:53,058 --> 00:40:55,998
Are there more Bitcoin payments made today than there were 10 years ago?

931
00:40:55,998 --> 00:41:03,877
I think you're both right. It's true. Like, yes, it is certainly. Well, again, the Silk Road thing, we'd have to go check those numbers.

932
00:41:03,877 --> 00:41:22,258
Hold on. Like, let's just simplify it. Let's say there's, you know, stable coins and Bitcoin payments. And 10 years ago, Bitcoin payments was at five and stable coins is zero. And today, Bitcoin payments are at six and stable coin payments are at a billion. Well, did Bitcoin payments grow? Yes. But I mean.

933
00:41:22,258 --> 00:41:29,457
yeah but i don't even see the argument here but well i wouldn't claim that stable coins

934
00:41:29,457 --> 00:41:36,138
are not used they're used way many many orders of magnitude more than bitcoin payments so i think

935
00:41:36,138 --> 00:41:40,518
we're all on the same page with that my point is i think that bitcoin payments is the long-term

936
00:41:40,518 --> 00:41:45,877
way that the payment stuff is going to work and there's going to be some maybe you know multi-year

937
00:41:45,877 --> 00:41:51,058
transitional period where people try to do stuff with stable coins they get kind of borked in one

938
00:41:51,058 --> 00:41:55,638
way or another. And then they've probably come around or maybe there's new technologies that

939
00:41:55,638 --> 00:41:59,038
come around that enable people to use Bitcoin payments like stable coins.

940
00:42:00,098 --> 00:42:04,538
Yeah, I mean, I don't think any of us are disagreeing at our core. I mean, I think a lot

941
00:42:04,538 --> 00:42:10,278
of it just comes down to expectation reality. Like if you came into the Bitcoin project with

942
00:42:10,278 --> 00:42:15,098
the idea that we're going to get Bitcoin peer to peer payments from day zero, you're probably

943
00:42:15,098 --> 00:42:20,377
very disappointed. Right. If you came into the Bitcoin project saying money has to go through,

944
00:42:20,377 --> 00:42:26,738
you know, collectible, store value, medium of exchange, unit of account. And you can maybe on

945
00:42:26,738 --> 00:42:30,438
the margins push things a little bit faster or slower, but like ultimately nature is going to

946
00:42:30,438 --> 00:42:34,738
nature and like, it just, it is what it is. And like, we're going through the progression and like,

947
00:42:34,798 --> 00:42:40,418
here we are. I mean, I will say from my perspective as a VC who has bet heavily on the Lightning

948
00:42:40,418 --> 00:42:44,398
Network for payments, there's no question it's been disappointing that it's gone slower than I

949
00:42:44,398 --> 00:42:50,998
thought it was going to go in 2017 or 2021. No question. Or our 2025 predictions.

950
00:42:51,178 --> 00:42:58,038
Yeah, our 2025 predictions, which were just like, like, miss after miss. So there's no question,

951
00:42:58,158 --> 00:43:03,718
my expectation was incorrect in how quickly it would happen. Am I less confident that it's going

952
00:43:03,718 --> 00:43:09,638
to happen today? No. I mean, I still think more than ever in the long run, there's so many reasons

953
00:43:09,638 --> 00:43:13,918
Bitcoin is permissionless, it's energy back, it has all these properties. And in fact, you know,

954
00:43:13,918 --> 00:43:15,118
I've been thinking a lot more about,

955
00:43:15,298 --> 00:43:17,457
and somebody else want to discuss this compute marketplace idea

956
00:43:17,457 --> 00:43:18,357
and agents using it.

957
00:43:18,678 --> 00:43:20,798
Like ultimately, without doxing,

958
00:43:20,898 --> 00:43:22,138
because he doesn't want to come out yet,

959
00:43:22,178 --> 00:43:23,758
but like someone very smart said something

960
00:43:23,758 --> 00:43:24,898
that just stuck in my head.

961
00:43:24,957 --> 00:43:29,258
It's like, it's not that agents or people prefer Bitcoin.

962
00:43:29,398 --> 00:43:30,498
They're going to choose Bitcoin for payments

963
00:43:30,498 --> 00:43:33,018
because like, oh yes, I've done a long careful analysis

964
00:43:33,018 --> 00:43:34,018
and this is better than that.

965
00:43:34,218 --> 00:43:35,817
It's going to be like, what's going to happen is

966
00:43:35,817 --> 00:43:37,798
stable coins are going to win until they don't.

967
00:43:38,138 --> 00:43:40,178
And they're not, and when do they not win?

968
00:43:40,477 --> 00:43:42,518
Whenever there's like a big reason they stop working.

969
00:43:42,518 --> 00:43:44,658
It's like it works until someone.

970
00:43:44,758 --> 00:43:45,758
This is my point.

971
00:43:45,957 --> 00:43:51,098
This is why if Bitcoin payments is a five today and or was a five, 10 years ago and it's a six today.

972
00:43:51,258 --> 00:43:53,498
But stable coins is what you say, a thousand or a billion or whatever.

973
00:43:53,957 --> 00:44:06,498
Like, that's great because stable coins are a transitional technology that will help people, you know, use digital technologies and somewhat cryptographically somewhat secured, debatably secured.

974
00:44:06,498 --> 00:44:13,218
now I do think the spirit of what Jack was saying though is is also important which and something I've

975
00:44:13,218 --> 00:44:19,178
also thought about he mentioned um that a movie he likes a lot which I actually now want to rewatch

976
00:44:19,178 --> 00:44:26,558
was WALL-E and I think that's important too because I think that you know to go back to one of our

977
00:44:26,558 --> 00:44:31,398
mutual favorite thinkers Kevin Kelly like there are certain technological things that are inevitable

978
00:44:31,398 --> 00:44:35,918
And I think on a long enough time horizon, there are even like characteristics of those

979
00:44:35,918 --> 00:44:36,898
technologies that are inevitable.

980
00:44:37,337 --> 00:44:42,418
However, there are flavors of those technologies that can be birthed at different moments.

981
00:44:42,498 --> 00:44:44,898
For example, a hive mind is inevitable.

982
00:44:45,158 --> 00:44:46,317
That's why my fund is called Hive Mind.

983
00:44:46,957 --> 00:44:51,438
There is a bottoms up version, which I think Bitcoin and technologies like Nostra represent.

984
00:44:51,618 --> 00:44:54,258
And there is a top down version, which is more of like what we see in countries like

985
00:44:54,258 --> 00:44:54,518
China.

986
00:44:54,778 --> 00:44:57,618
They're both hive minds, but they're different characters of hive mind.

987
00:44:57,618 --> 00:44:59,778
I have my beliefs on what ultimately will win.

988
00:45:00,198 --> 00:45:00,658
But like,

989
00:45:00,918 --> 00:45:02,678
as I've learned and one thing I need to be more,

990
00:45:02,778 --> 00:45:02,918
I think,

991
00:45:02,957 --> 00:45:05,957
humble about is I've just been really wrong on timeframes and that's okay.

992
00:45:06,317 --> 00:45:07,198
Like it is what it is.

993
00:45:07,218 --> 00:45:08,218
As long as you're patient enough,

994
00:45:08,298 --> 00:45:08,598
like,

995
00:45:08,837 --> 00:45:09,078
you know,

996
00:45:09,178 --> 00:45:10,158
everything eventually happens.

997
00:45:10,258 --> 00:45:10,377
Yeah.

998
00:45:10,498 --> 00:45:10,698
Yeah,

999
00:45:10,698 --> 00:45:11,058
exactly.

1000
00:45:11,538 --> 00:45:11,898
Exactly.

1001
00:45:12,178 --> 00:45:12,957
Literally everything.

1002
00:45:13,218 --> 00:45:13,377
But,

1003
00:45:13,498 --> 00:45:13,698
um,

1004
00:45:14,178 --> 00:45:15,158
that's a different conversation.

1005
00:45:15,678 --> 00:45:26,415
Uh but but I think what he was kind of getting at which is which is fair is like it does appear that we are and not just on Bitcoin payments but like you know as we

1006
00:45:26,415 --> 00:45:28,415
discussed with the X and the attention thievery

1007
00:45:28,415 --> 00:45:29,635
whatever you want to call it

1008
00:45:29,635 --> 00:45:32,495
sadly it appears that society

1009
00:45:32,495 --> 00:45:34,735
is from his perspective

1010
00:45:34,735 --> 00:45:36,335
and I would tend to agree with this

1011
00:45:36,335 --> 00:45:38,575
moving more towards a Wally world

1012
00:45:38,575 --> 00:45:40,715
where people are sitting there fat

1013
00:45:40,715 --> 00:45:41,795
slurping their whatever

1014
00:45:41,795 --> 00:45:44,035
glued into a seat and

1015
00:45:44,035 --> 00:45:47,415
And I think his point was like,

1016
00:45:47,855 --> 00:45:48,755
these freedom technologies,

1017
00:45:48,975 --> 00:45:51,735
even if eventually they win,

1018
00:45:51,835 --> 00:45:52,655
it would kind of suck

1019
00:45:52,655 --> 00:45:54,055
if we go through a generation of that,

1020
00:45:54,155 --> 00:45:55,515
if there was the possibility

1021
00:45:55,515 --> 00:45:57,515
that some people could break away

1022
00:45:57,515 --> 00:45:58,535
and tap people on the shoulder

1023
00:45:58,535 --> 00:45:59,355
and remind them like,

1024
00:45:59,435 --> 00:46:00,655
hey, you don't have to strap in,

1025
00:46:00,715 --> 00:46:01,335
you could go live.

1026
00:46:01,335 --> 00:46:01,515
Yep.

1027
00:46:02,195 --> 00:46:02,375
Yep.

1028
00:46:02,835 --> 00:46:04,915
And I just wanted to bring,

1029
00:46:06,255 --> 00:46:08,275
so my takeaway from Jack saying that

1030
00:46:08,275 --> 00:46:08,835
wasn't like,

1031
00:46:08,935 --> 00:46:09,915
oh, I'm going to stop working

1032
00:46:09,915 --> 00:46:11,435
on Bitcoin payments we've lost.

1033
00:46:11,615 --> 00:46:12,295
It was more like,

1034
00:46:12,295 --> 00:46:14,195
well Spiral is

1035
00:46:14,195 --> 00:46:16,535
all about Bitcoin payments

1036
00:46:16,535 --> 00:46:18,015
and Presidio Bitcoin

1037
00:46:18,015 --> 00:46:20,095
a big thrust within Presidio Bitcoin

1038
00:46:20,095 --> 00:46:22,215
and the show and what we talk about is Bitcoin

1039
00:46:22,215 --> 00:46:23,695
payments so it's not like

1040
00:46:23,695 --> 00:46:26,155
the things I've been affiliated with

1041
00:46:26,155 --> 00:46:28,215
and work on haven't been trying

1042
00:46:28,215 --> 00:46:30,175
to move the needle here but my takeaway

1043
00:46:30,175 --> 00:46:32,055
is like we need to double down

1044
00:46:32,055 --> 00:46:34,255
and not only on

1045
00:46:34,255 --> 00:46:36,115
the software development and product

1046
00:46:36,115 --> 00:46:37,775
development and things like that but also just

1047
00:46:37,775 --> 00:46:40,175
the message and

1048
00:46:40,175 --> 00:46:41,715
double down on the message

1049
00:46:41,715 --> 00:46:46,655
and fight the narrative.

1050
00:46:47,155 --> 00:46:48,815
And to me, that doesn't mean like

1051
00:46:48,815 --> 00:46:50,895
shit on the store of value narrative.

1052
00:46:51,095 --> 00:46:52,755
I totally believe in the store of value narrative.

1053
00:46:53,695 --> 00:46:54,575
So it's not like it has to replace that.

1054
00:46:54,575 --> 00:46:56,095
And I think it's an attractive step one

1055
00:46:56,095 --> 00:46:57,535
for a lot of people, especially today.

1056
00:46:58,055 --> 00:46:58,215
Yeah.

1057
00:46:58,475 --> 00:47:01,495
So I'm fully on board to store value,

1058
00:47:01,495 --> 00:47:06,755
fully on board with what you mentioned, Max,

1059
00:47:06,835 --> 00:47:08,595
about collectible to store value

1060
00:47:08,595 --> 00:47:09,475
to media exchange,

1061
00:47:09,575 --> 00:47:11,135
you know, account over a long period of time.

1062
00:47:11,135 --> 00:47:12,975
and also a lot of it being

1063
00:47:12,975 --> 00:47:15,495
just a timeline we can't

1064
00:47:15,495 --> 00:47:17,055
influence greatly.

1065
00:47:17,595 --> 00:47:19,355
But I do think we can influence it.

1066
00:47:19,775 --> 00:47:20,775
We can

1067
00:47:20,775 --> 00:47:22,255
accelerate it.

1068
00:47:23,475 --> 00:47:25,195
Otherwise, I wouldn't

1069
00:47:25,195 --> 00:47:27,315
do what I'm doing

1070
00:47:27,315 --> 00:47:29,315
because it would be a complete waste

1071
00:47:29,315 --> 00:47:29,955
of time.

1072
00:47:31,055 --> 00:47:32,315
Maybe it is, I don't know.

1073
00:47:32,455 --> 00:47:34,135
I tend to think

1074
00:47:34,135 --> 00:47:39,055
it's optimizing it.

1075
00:47:39,675 --> 00:47:40,815
But I do think we need to like

1076
00:47:41,135 --> 00:47:43,135
double down even more.

1077
00:47:43,455 --> 00:47:46,015
And things that we can control,

1078
00:47:48,155 --> 00:47:50,315
you know, we can move the needle.

1079
00:47:50,815 --> 00:47:51,975
And also be very strategic,

1080
00:47:52,095 --> 00:47:52,955
not just work harder,

1081
00:47:53,135 --> 00:47:54,575
but also like be very strategic

1082
00:47:54,575 --> 00:47:55,335
about thinking like,

1083
00:47:55,515 --> 00:47:57,975
where does Bitcoin payments solve a problem?

1084
00:47:58,055 --> 00:47:59,975
And so I think maybe this is a good transition point,

1085
00:48:00,075 --> 00:48:01,555
which is MDK.

1086
00:48:01,835 --> 00:48:02,015
Yeah.

1087
00:48:02,435 --> 00:48:05,435
And I think Nick's listening,

1088
00:48:05,715 --> 00:48:07,935
who founded Money Dev Kit.

1089
00:48:07,935 --> 00:48:08,275
Yeah.

1090
00:48:09,955 --> 00:48:10,435
So...

1091
00:48:11,135 --> 00:48:14,215
many things to talk about here that I don't

1092
00:48:14,215 --> 00:48:16,235
actually I was going to say Steve can I think

1093
00:48:16,235 --> 00:48:18,195
you did maybe I don't know if it was one of your first

1094
00:48:18,195 --> 00:48:20,395
production five coding projects

1095
00:48:20,395 --> 00:48:22,155
yeah I've done some other ones before

1096
00:48:22,155 --> 00:48:24,275
that's maybe a nice can you share

1097
00:48:24,275 --> 00:48:26,155
that and then we can sort of talk about what you learned

1098
00:48:26,155 --> 00:48:28,275
because it's kind of relative to the tee up of the

1099
00:48:28,275 --> 00:48:28,895
title and stuff

1100
00:48:28,895 --> 00:48:32,515
I've begun three different simple projects

1101
00:48:32,515 --> 00:48:34,375
using MDK my goal was

1102
00:48:34,375 --> 00:48:36,495
to use MDK and like because Nick's

1103
00:48:36,495 --> 00:48:38,235
tweeting and marketing

1104
00:48:38,235 --> 00:48:40,335
that like you can one shot it super easy

1105
00:48:40,335 --> 00:48:41,955
and there's replet optimizations.

1106
00:48:42,195 --> 00:48:43,655
And I'm like, I believe that,

1107
00:48:43,775 --> 00:48:46,255
but I want to see it for real, try it myself.

1108
00:48:47,015 --> 00:48:50,135
So I tried like a casino, like, you know,

1109
00:48:50,155 --> 00:48:52,915
spin a wheel, pay Bitcoin, spin a wheel,

1110
00:48:53,035 --> 00:48:54,735
and then win, you know, either win or lose.

1111
00:48:55,575 --> 00:48:56,015
Gambling.

1112
00:48:56,375 --> 00:48:56,515
Yeah.

1113
00:48:59,455 --> 00:49:01,975
And that got put on pause

1114
00:49:01,975 --> 00:49:04,375
because MDK doesn't yet support payouts,

1115
00:49:04,475 --> 00:49:07,075
but I think in the near future it will.

1116
00:49:07,735 --> 00:49:09,215
So I paused that.

1117
00:49:09,215 --> 00:49:19,155
then um i turned to uh creating a simple joke it's called joke box um you know you pay to get a joke

1118
00:49:19,155 --> 00:49:26,855
uh this is not some like an incredible feat by me literally replit figured out the theme the name

1119
00:49:26,855 --> 00:49:32,095
everything for me oh really um what was your problem because by the way so uh steve has a

1120
00:49:32,095 --> 00:49:36,655
side hustle now because i believe both dk and i purchased a joke so he's a he's already he's

1121
00:49:36,655 --> 00:49:38,815
I think it's doing quite well, yeah.

1122
00:49:39,515 --> 00:49:40,195
He's doing numbers.

1123
00:49:41,675 --> 00:49:45,635
I think I'm one of the top revenue generators of MDK.

1124
00:49:45,815 --> 00:49:46,415
Are you serious?

1125
00:49:47,135 --> 00:49:47,715
How many jokes?

1126
00:49:48,075 --> 00:49:49,455
Nick, can you tell us how many jokes we got?

1127
00:49:50,975 --> 00:49:55,635
Well, thanks to MDK, it has a very nice dashboard for users.

1128
00:49:55,835 --> 00:49:56,995
So yeah, I can pull up the dashboard.

1129
00:49:57,215 --> 00:49:57,415
I don't know.

1130
00:49:57,475 --> 00:49:59,095
I have like a dozen orders.

1131
00:49:59,515 --> 00:50:01,035
We're just trying to dock your theoretical object.

1132
00:50:01,035 --> 00:50:06,655
you're trying to get me audited by the IRS

1133
00:50:06,655 --> 00:50:09,935
even though a lot of these are wash sales

1134
00:50:09,935 --> 00:50:11,055
I'm just paying myself

1135
00:50:11,055 --> 00:50:13,315
those are merely suggestions

1136
00:50:13,315 --> 00:50:14,595
taxes are not real

1137
00:50:14,595 --> 00:50:16,695
as we learned on the show

1138
00:50:16,695 --> 00:50:18,055
thanks to Max

1139
00:50:18,055 --> 00:50:19,375
anyhow

1140
00:50:19,375 --> 00:50:20,675
so

1141
00:50:20,675 --> 00:50:24,375
so this app

1142
00:50:24,375 --> 00:50:27,655
you are teased with a joke

1143
00:50:27,655 --> 00:50:29,515
you have to pay

1144
00:50:29,515 --> 00:50:31,475
to see the joke.

1145
00:50:32,295 --> 00:50:33,215
Very simple website.

1146
00:50:33,475 --> 00:50:34,775
But again, my goal was like,

1147
00:50:35,075 --> 00:50:36,975
use MDK, get successful payments,

1148
00:50:37,135 --> 00:50:39,015
see how easy it was to add MDK.

1149
00:50:39,675 --> 00:50:43,555
And I would say it was overall very good

1150
00:50:43,555 --> 00:50:47,515
and close to the dream.

1151
00:50:49,355 --> 00:50:51,295
The problems I encountered

1152
00:50:51,295 --> 00:50:53,815
were not MDK related.

1153
00:50:53,815 --> 00:50:58,115
They were my agent trying to get too fancy using MDK.

1154
00:50:58,115 --> 00:51:03,015
So I had to be like extra explicit saying like follow the MDK docs exactly.

1155
00:51:03,415 --> 00:51:05,235
I had to give it those kind of instructions.

1156
00:51:05,475 --> 00:51:09,855
And there are some other weird, like so MDK, it's a self-custody wallet.

1157
00:51:10,015 --> 00:51:14,655
So I had, you know, my wallet was generated for me.

1158
00:51:14,795 --> 00:51:18,375
I have the client side, I have my 12 words for seed phrase.

1159
00:51:18,555 --> 00:51:20,895
And I gave that to Replit as part of my app.

1160
00:51:20,935 --> 00:51:23,855
And then like it only read 11 of the 12 words.

1161
00:51:23,975 --> 00:51:24,835
And then it failed.

1162
00:51:24,835 --> 00:51:29,235
And then as I was debugging it, it's like, well, your seed phrase only has 11 words.

1163
00:51:29,275 --> 00:51:30,375
And I went back to look at my prompt.

1164
00:51:30,435 --> 00:51:33,415
Oh, I must have had a copy paste error.

1165
00:51:33,695 --> 00:51:34,595
And no.

1166
00:51:35,295 --> 00:51:39,875
So these are not MDK related, but still overall experience.

1167
00:51:40,155 --> 00:51:43,215
Like this is what these are the types of things people might encounter.

1168
00:51:43,435 --> 00:51:45,395
So it still was not perfectly seamless.

1169
00:51:45,735 --> 00:51:45,855
Yeah.

1170
00:51:46,315 --> 00:51:51,575
That said, it was pretty amazing how easily it was to add payments to an application.

1171
00:51:51,955 --> 00:51:52,095
Yeah.

1172
00:51:52,095 --> 00:51:56,515
And there's no hang-up or gotcha that says it can't be polished, right?

1173
00:51:56,675 --> 00:52:02,135
Any problems you ran into, I think, can be fixed and made simple and easy.

1174
00:52:02,935 --> 00:52:03,215
Probably.

1175
00:52:03,455 --> 00:52:09,235
I mean, the 11 words versus 12 words, I don't really see what MDK can do with that.

1176
00:52:09,235 --> 00:52:13,775
I think between Replit or the underlying models or MDK, some combination of them.

1177
00:52:13,835 --> 00:52:16,115
This is not like a, it doesn't need a new breakthrough.

1178
00:52:16,295 --> 00:52:17,775
We just need to figure out how to get it working.

1179
00:52:18,555 --> 00:52:18,875
Yeah.

1180
00:52:18,875 --> 00:52:24,315
And again, the high level is like, it's very easy to add payments to any application now.

1181
00:52:25,795 --> 00:52:28,035
So, well, two things.

1182
00:52:28,715 --> 00:52:35,555
Another next step for me, I want to try out other payment solutions to compare, including stablecoins and stuff like that.

1183
00:52:35,795 --> 00:52:37,915
And I'll report back once I've done that.

1184
00:52:38,115 --> 00:52:44,195
And then once I get beyond that exercise, then I just want to turn my attention to applications versus payments.

1185
00:52:44,355 --> 00:52:47,315
Because then all of a sudden, like payments, payments are solved.

1186
00:52:47,315 --> 00:52:59,335
So now just like, instead of just doing like a joke type of application, you know, actually build something that is more substantial and more meaningful to me.

1187
00:53:00,635 --> 00:53:03,815
And then payments that are not solved, right?

1188
00:53:03,875 --> 00:53:11,595
Like you're doing, you're the developer who has a self-custody wallet and you have users paying the developer, but we don't have like user-to-user payments.

1189
00:53:12,155 --> 00:53:15,835
You can't vibe code a user-to-user payment at self-custody very well today, can you?

1190
00:53:17,315 --> 00:53:17,835
Sorry?

1191
00:53:18,715 --> 00:53:20,815
Like if you wanted to let,

1192
00:53:20,955 --> 00:53:21,555
you know, I don't know,

1193
00:53:21,595 --> 00:53:23,035
let users bet on the outcome

1194
00:53:23,035 --> 00:53:24,795
of the wheel spin

1195
00:53:24,795 --> 00:53:26,835
and bet against each other.

1196
00:53:26,995 --> 00:53:27,975
Yeah, there's definitely

1197
00:53:27,975 --> 00:53:29,075
some payment use cases

1198
00:53:29,075 --> 00:53:31,075
that are not well-faulted.

1199
00:53:31,075 --> 00:53:31,735
But to be clear,

1200
00:53:31,815 --> 00:53:32,255
you're talking about

1201
00:53:32,255 --> 00:53:32,995
peer-to-peer coordination

1202
00:53:32,995 --> 00:53:34,115
where it's like it leaves

1203
00:53:34,115 --> 00:53:34,915
one user's wallet

1204
00:53:34,915 --> 00:53:35,615
and goes directly

1205
00:53:35,615 --> 00:53:36,535
to the other user's wallet.

1206
00:53:36,755 --> 00:53:37,595
Yeah, so the developer

1207
00:53:37,595 --> 00:53:38,755
doesn't have to take custody

1208
00:53:38,755 --> 00:53:39,635
or be responsible for it.

1209
00:53:39,635 --> 00:53:40,415
Well, and that's one

1210
00:53:40,415 --> 00:53:41,495
of the nice features today

1211
00:53:41,495 --> 00:53:42,415
that we have with,

1212
00:53:42,475 --> 00:53:43,835
I guess, Nostra Wallet Connect

1213
00:53:43,835 --> 00:53:44,615
is in theory,

1214
00:53:44,775 --> 00:53:45,795
you could do that in a way

1215
00:53:45,795 --> 00:53:46,855
where you program

1216
00:53:46,855 --> 00:53:47,975
or coordinate the payment

1217
00:53:47,975 --> 00:53:48,755
and take a cut

1218
00:53:48,755 --> 00:53:49,635
as like a business,

1219
00:53:49,775 --> 00:53:50,815
but you never touch the money.

1220
00:53:51,675 --> 00:53:51,775
Right.

1221
00:53:52,475 --> 00:53:53,535
And I feel like that,

1222
00:53:53,895 --> 00:53:55,275
so I'm just sort of saying,

1223
00:53:55,455 --> 00:53:57,195
I like the optimism

1224
00:53:57,195 --> 00:53:58,115
that payments are solved,

1225
00:53:58,215 --> 00:54:00,055
but I'm cautious to claim that.

1226
00:54:00,075 --> 00:54:01,035
Let me requalify.

1227
00:54:01,215 --> 00:54:03,575
Not every payment use case possible

1228
00:54:03,575 --> 00:54:04,275
because subscriptions

1229
00:54:04,275 --> 00:54:05,335
are not solved either.

1230
00:54:05,535 --> 00:54:05,795
So I mean,

1231
00:54:05,875 --> 00:54:08,135
not every possible payment use case

1232
00:54:08,135 --> 00:54:08,495
is solved,

1233
00:54:08,715 --> 00:54:10,815
but the basic one is solved.

1234
00:54:11,455 --> 00:54:11,615
Yeah.

1235
00:54:11,695 --> 00:54:12,795
And I can just move on

1236
00:54:12,795 --> 00:54:14,035
to focusing on applications.

1237
00:54:14,395 --> 00:54:15,575
It is just like trivial

1238
00:54:15,575 --> 00:54:16,575
to add payments.

1239
00:54:16,575 --> 00:54:26,635
And then other payment use cases, payouts, subscriptions, what you guys are discussing are either close or will come.

1240
00:54:27,455 --> 00:54:31,795
But super excited that MDK exists.

1241
00:54:31,955 --> 00:54:34,255
It's just nice to just like, oh, just check a box.

1242
00:54:34,435 --> 00:54:34,955
It's trivial.

1243
00:54:35,115 --> 00:54:36,095
We don't have to worry about that anymore.

1244
00:54:37,475 --> 00:54:39,415
And to be clear, I mean, I think it's two things.

1245
00:54:39,495 --> 00:54:41,435
One, this is the worst MDK will ever be, right?

1246
00:54:41,455 --> 00:54:42,815
Like it's a new brand new startup.

1247
00:54:42,895 --> 00:54:44,495
So it's just going to keep getting better and better and better.

1248
00:54:44,495 --> 00:54:45,575
So all these features are going to come.

1249
00:54:45,575 --> 00:54:53,895
But I would say, to be clear, what I think MDK has really narrowed in on are two critical use cases.

1250
00:54:54,135 --> 00:54:57,575
One, people that, for whatever reason, are outside of the traditional payment systems.

1251
00:54:57,695 --> 00:54:58,495
They can't get Stripe.

1252
00:54:58,555 --> 00:54:59,755
Okay, that's like most of India.

1253
00:55:00,575 --> 00:55:02,775
Or for people that do, Speed.

1254
00:55:03,955 --> 00:55:04,815
That's my understanding.

1255
00:55:05,035 --> 00:55:07,255
And Nick or other people, please correct me if you have another thing.

1256
00:55:07,415 --> 00:55:14,575
But for people that are in the payment network, in the payment rails like us, like you live in the U.S., why would you choose MDK over Stripe or anything?

1257
00:55:14,575 --> 00:55:16,995
because you don't have to sit there and create accounts.

1258
00:55:17,375 --> 00:55:18,735
Is that reasonable?

1259
00:55:19,435 --> 00:55:19,815
It could be.

1260
00:55:19,995 --> 00:55:21,295
One reason I want to do this project

1261
00:55:21,295 --> 00:55:23,535
of trying to try other payment technology

1262
00:55:23,535 --> 00:55:24,995
is what's the dev UX?

1263
00:55:25,395 --> 00:55:27,715
How easy is it for me to vibe code these other solutions?

1264
00:55:27,715 --> 00:55:29,195
So I don't know the answer.

1265
00:55:29,435 --> 00:55:30,435
I'll report back.

1266
00:55:30,735 --> 00:55:33,655
But one answer could be the dev UX is poor.

1267
00:55:34,955 --> 00:55:38,435
But that's probably true for a lot of them,

1268
00:55:38,515 --> 00:55:40,815
but probably easy to close that gap.

1269
00:55:41,375 --> 00:55:42,875
But it's more, I think what you said,

1270
00:55:42,875 --> 00:55:49,575
is what where the gap will not be easy or even possible to close which is um avoiding like

1271
00:55:49,575 --> 00:55:55,595
registration yeah and i also think it'd be interesting to see like for example as you

1272
00:55:55,595 --> 00:56:00,775
start doing agents that are doing lots of things like imagine i say hey i want to test a hundred

1273
00:56:00,775 --> 00:56:05,415
different variations to spin them all up now as their own accounts maybe one day that'll happen

1274
00:56:05,415 --> 00:56:09,975
with sub accounts but that's still tied to a user like if you're going to more the more and more

1275
00:56:09,975 --> 00:56:18,595
autonomous that gets, the more it needs to be. I think speed, ability to have identity not be tied

1276
00:56:18,595 --> 00:56:23,375
to the old world systems for autonomous agents, and parallelism, the ability just to spin them

1277
00:56:23,375 --> 00:56:28,535
all up at once. I guess maybe Stripe can figure that out, but at least for today, I don't think

1278
00:56:28,535 --> 00:56:33,195
that's possible for each of your agents just to quickly have its own wallet. I think the big thing

1279
00:56:33,195 --> 00:56:39,095
here too is that most of the people are the ones who just aren't on the rails system. If you're a

1280
00:56:39,095 --> 00:56:41,175
kid in India, like most places in the world, if you're 15

1281
00:56:41,175 --> 00:56:42,715
years old, I think you cannot have a Stripe account.

1282
00:56:43,295 --> 00:56:45,135
Oh, let's talk about that. Steve had a

1283
00:56:45,135 --> 00:56:45,855
good idea on this one.

1284
00:56:46,655 --> 00:56:47,415
Go ahead.

1285
00:56:47,955 --> 00:56:50,895
I definitely want to talk about it. I had that

1286
00:56:50,895 --> 00:56:53,135
jotted down, like the call sheet ads

1287
00:56:53,135 --> 00:56:54,535
I saw, right? So we'll talk about that.

1288
00:56:56,415 --> 00:56:57,155
Real quick before

1289
00:56:57,155 --> 00:56:59,115
we get to that, I think a notable

1290
00:56:59,115 --> 00:57:01,335
thing from MDK over the break is that

1291
00:57:01,335 --> 00:57:03,115
Amjad, who's the CEO, founder

1292
00:57:03,115 --> 00:57:03,975
and CEO of Replit,

1293
00:57:05,635 --> 00:57:06,635
quote tweeted

1294
00:57:06,635 --> 00:57:09,055
Nick's, one

1295
00:57:09,055 --> 00:57:10,855
Nick's tweets about MDK

1296
00:57:10,855 --> 00:57:12,935
and said positive things.

1297
00:57:13,175 --> 00:57:13,775
That's exciting.

1298
00:57:14,415 --> 00:57:16,495
That's not super surprising

1299
00:57:16,495 --> 00:57:19,835
because MDK took some actions

1300
00:57:19,835 --> 00:57:21,075
to optimize for Replit,

1301
00:57:21,215 --> 00:57:22,895
so it's a win for Replit as well.

1302
00:57:23,435 --> 00:57:25,635
However, I thought the most interesting thing

1303
00:57:25,635 --> 00:57:28,775
is that Paul Graham then retweeted Amjad.

1304
00:57:29,755 --> 00:57:33,535
And Paul is obviously well-known in Silicon Valley

1305
00:57:33,535 --> 00:57:36,375
and great track record and has been...

1306
00:57:36,375 --> 00:57:37,575
Especially when it comes to crypto predictions.

1307
00:57:37,575 --> 00:57:46,175
But yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that Paul seems like particularly friendly or an advocate of Bitcoin, right?

1308
00:57:46,875 --> 00:58:01,175
But I think what's most notable here, Money DevKit doesn't go out of its way to wave the orange flag and make Bitcoin front and center in its marketing and positioning.

1309
00:58:01,175 --> 00:58:03,075
and if you read through the tweet

1310
00:58:03,075 --> 00:58:05,075
that Amjad wrote

1311
00:58:05,075 --> 00:58:06,775
and even Nick did

1312
00:58:06,775 --> 00:58:09,055
and got retweeted, it doesn't like

1313
00:58:09,055 --> 00:58:11,075
it's not some Bitcoin Maxi

1314
00:58:11,075 --> 00:58:12,455
copy, right?

1315
00:58:12,455 --> 00:58:14,515
And I think that's why Paul retweeted

1316
00:58:14,515 --> 00:58:16,115
I suspect Paul doesn't even know

1317
00:58:16,115 --> 00:58:17,415
Bitcoin's behind the scenes

1318
00:58:17,415 --> 00:58:20,295
He just saw

1319
00:58:20,295 --> 00:58:23,875
he just saw that

1320
00:58:23,875 --> 00:58:26,255
oh, permissionless globally accessible

1321
00:58:26,255 --> 00:58:28,035
payments for Replit

1322
00:58:28,035 --> 00:58:29,755
easy to integrate

1323
00:58:29,755 --> 00:58:43,275
And that sounds really, I mean, that is really attractive and it sounds attractive and great. So I think that's a, that is a win for MDK positioning marketing and, and other others in Bitcoin can probably learn from that.

1324
00:58:43,275 --> 00:58:46,155
Yeah. And I mean, I think that's, yeah, go ahead. No, please.

1325
00:58:46,635 --> 00:59:03,995
I was gonna say, I think that's an idea that is worth really reemphasizing both in Bitcoin and I think in Noster as well. But these are more like enabling technologies, the more like infrastructure technologies that let us build new experience, let us build new applications, let us build MDK is a new piece of infrastructure.

1326
00:59:04,375 --> 00:59:04,675
Amen.

1327
00:59:04,675 --> 00:59:10,635
But like when you look at the way Nick talks about MDK in his videos, he almost doesn't mention Bitcoin much.

1328
00:59:10,755 --> 00:59:13,555
It's not, it's just like under, you know, behind the scenes, right?

1329
00:59:13,735 --> 00:59:16,415
When you look at, you look at BitChat, right?

1330
00:59:16,435 --> 00:59:17,435
It's not a Nostra client.

1331
00:59:17,495 --> 00:59:21,395
It's just a client that helps you do a thing, but sometimes uses the Nostra infrastructure when necessary.

1332
00:59:21,655 --> 00:59:28,255
And we've been talking, you know, Steve and I and another friend have been talking on a private group chat about like a prediction market idea.

1333
00:59:28,775 --> 00:59:31,055
And we've talked about how you can build a prediction market.

1334
00:59:31,055 --> 00:59:34,975
this is our super secret

1335
00:59:34,975 --> 00:59:36,635
the real PBJ chat

1336
00:59:36,635 --> 00:59:38,435
this is the title of the chat

1337
00:59:38,435 --> 00:59:40,555
you don't even know

1338
00:59:40,555 --> 00:59:41,715
I know what I got going on

1339
00:59:41,715 --> 00:59:44,055
I'm also working with some people

1340
00:59:44,055 --> 00:59:46,195
on some chats

1341
00:59:46,195 --> 00:59:47,535
you and Diddy have your own little

1342
00:59:47,535 --> 00:59:51,035
but like a prediction market

1343
00:59:51,035 --> 00:59:53,935
they can write and publish things

1344
00:59:53,935 --> 00:59:55,315
to and from Nostra

1345
00:59:55,315 --> 00:59:56,275
to help kind of manage

1346
00:59:56,275 --> 00:59:56,975
the information around

1347
00:59:56,975 --> 00:59:57,535
the prediction market

1348
00:59:57,535 --> 00:59:59,075
but it doesn't have to be a Nostra app

1349
00:59:59,075 --> 00:59:59,895
it can just be like

1350
00:59:59,895 --> 01:00:00,915
a prediction market right

1351
01:00:00,915 --> 01:00:09,155
Totally. And by the way, anybody building in this space should be thinking about how to deemphasize the technology choice and emphasize the user value in the application.

1352
01:00:09,615 --> 01:00:26,015
A hundred percent. And like this is another point Jack made. He was like, if Noster, we talked about Noster a little bit. Bob asked specifically about like, you know, what do you think of adoption? That was his like message over and over again. If you market it as a competitor Twitter, you will lose. If it's just infrastructure that enables new things, you will win. That simple.

1353
01:00:26,655 --> 01:00:28,895
I think something that's super important here,

1354
01:00:29,015 --> 01:00:30,695
and increasingly as I'm thinking about

1355
01:00:30,695 --> 01:00:32,155
sort of putting on my investor hat,

1356
01:00:32,235 --> 01:00:33,055
where do I want to be?

1357
01:00:33,695 --> 01:00:35,955
What kinds of new experiences do I want to invest in?

1358
01:00:36,455 --> 01:00:38,355
I think that people are like,

1359
01:00:38,415 --> 01:00:39,615
oh, let's build this, whatever,

1360
01:00:39,795 --> 01:00:40,455
like a prediction market.

1361
01:00:40,575 --> 01:00:41,315
It's like, that's cool.

1362
01:00:41,755 --> 01:00:42,975
But you know what's so much cooler?

1363
01:00:43,115 --> 01:00:44,735
And I think, Nick, this is really interesting

1364
01:00:44,735 --> 01:00:45,855
for MDK to think about is,

1365
01:00:46,155 --> 01:00:49,375
how do you make it super easy to remix

1366
01:00:49,375 --> 01:00:51,395
and let agents with their own wallets

1367
01:00:51,395 --> 01:00:52,495
interact with each other?

1368
01:00:52,775 --> 01:00:54,455
That to me is where this is going to get super cool.

1369
01:00:54,855 --> 01:00:55,815
So imagine for a minute,

1370
01:00:56,015 --> 01:01:00,395
you know, prediction markets took a long time to take off. They're finally starting to take off.

1371
01:01:00,455 --> 01:01:05,315
But I think we haven't even seen, you know, 0.01% of what prediction markets can do.

1372
01:01:05,775 --> 01:01:09,375
Like if you read guys like I think like Robin Hanson, a lot of people that have talked about

1373
01:01:09,375 --> 01:01:15,915
like prediction markets really like what does an economy really do? It is an information

1374
01:01:15,915 --> 01:01:21,095
processing unit. It allows you to find information. That's what's beautiful about economy. And by the

1375
01:01:21,095 --> 01:01:24,215
way, there's something like this goes back to my energy information entropy piece, which is

1376
01:01:24,215 --> 01:01:29,935
continuing to stew in the background. But like the important thing, like forget all the like

1377
01:01:29,935 --> 01:01:34,395
moral arguments or whatever. It's like, you know, the sort of high view of how an economy should

1378
01:01:34,395 --> 01:01:37,875
work is like when you go in there and just store it with money printing or regulations or whatever,

1379
01:01:38,235 --> 01:01:42,015
it's not just like, oh, you know, you're a bad guy or this, that. It's like, no, you're messing

1380
01:01:42,015 --> 01:01:47,995
up the information signal. So the economy can't tell you we need more of, you know, we're short

1381
01:01:47,995 --> 01:01:53,375
on steel and, you know, therefore we can't. And this is also one of the reasons I'm so long and

1382
01:01:53,375 --> 01:01:57,675
just like trust the curves, it's emergent intelligence. Like stop trying to like think

1383
01:01:57,675 --> 01:02:02,135
your human brain can figure stuff out. It can't, none of us can stop it. Just stop it. Emergent

1384
01:02:02,135 --> 01:02:07,775
intelligence is the answer always. And, uh, anyways, so, so just like some of these ideas

1385
01:02:07,775 --> 01:02:13,815
around things like futurearchy and the ability, uh, to use prediction markets in the future

1386
01:02:13,815 --> 01:02:20,455
to like, as like, um, you know, kind of like a sort of new form of voting and critically,

1387
01:02:20,455 --> 01:02:24,775
what's going to be cool with that is agents can do it and you can mash all these things up together

1388
01:02:24,775 --> 01:02:28,695
so it's like hey instead of building like the next prediction market for humans it's like who's going

1389
01:02:28,695 --> 01:02:33,555
to build a prediction market that agents can use so high isn't it yeah yeah have you seen by the

1390
01:02:33,555 --> 01:02:41,135
way have you seen um the polymarket times no this is a cool hack worth worth uh looking at some some

1391
01:02:41,135 --> 01:02:46,315
kid took all the information from i was just responding nick hft prediction market agents

1392
01:02:46,315 --> 01:02:47,035
there we go.

1393
01:02:47,935 --> 01:02:50,195
Yeah, and I mean, those things are

1394
01:02:50,195 --> 01:02:52,095
there's actually a cool blog post I'll share

1395
01:02:52,095 --> 01:02:54,275
with you about, or maybe I already

1396
01:02:54,275 --> 01:02:56,175
shared with you. That was probably

1397
01:02:56,175 --> 01:02:56,675
another chat.

1398
01:02:57,715 --> 01:03:00,115
The other chat. I didn't see it either.

1399
01:03:00,915 --> 01:03:01,595
I didn't hear that?

1400
01:03:02,295 --> 01:03:04,495
It's actually a thing about a guy who's

1401
01:03:04,495 --> 01:03:06,195
building a bunch of basically like trading

1402
01:03:06,195 --> 01:03:08,335
bots to find signal on

1403
01:03:08,335 --> 01:03:10,275
Twitter and then execute trades.

1404
01:03:10,395 --> 01:03:12,115
DK is so exclusive now.

1405
01:03:12,215 --> 01:03:13,875
He just has himself in it.

1406
01:03:14,815 --> 01:03:15,455
I think

1407
01:03:15,455 --> 01:03:17,275
I think he's just proving your point.

1408
01:03:18,635 --> 01:03:22,835
As material resources go to zero, DK's exclusivity is him and his bots.

1409
01:03:24,635 --> 01:03:39,315
So there's a broader topic that plus one is what you were saying, Max, around kind of, you know, information economy, which is we think about the old pre-internet media and information landscape as like, you know, newspapers.

1410
01:03:39,315 --> 01:03:40,995
They get, you know, they own distribution.

1411
01:03:41,155 --> 01:03:41,895
They own the printing press.

1412
01:03:41,895 --> 01:03:58,655
And so that's how truth is kind of disseminated is through that. And the internet was supposed to be this amazing thing that opened up all those channels, made it free to distribute, gave everybody a voice. And we saw that, and that was really good at the beginning. And then we've seen that decay in certain ways.

1413
01:03:58,655 --> 01:04:20,715
When everybody has a voice, who controls the algorithm is actually more important than who has a voice. And we also are now getting to this point where AI generative slop is going to end up filling up a lot of the media. What we think of as information nodes is going to get filled with AI generated stuff that's maybe entertaining, but not super informative. Right.

1414
01:04:20,715 --> 01:04:28,955
And so I think that like a prediction market is not just some new class of betting or marketplace or exchange.

1415
01:04:29,055 --> 01:04:31,295
It's actually a new type of information source.

1416
01:04:32,015 --> 01:04:34,975
So think about it's sort of the evolution of the internet.

1417
01:04:35,175 --> 01:04:41,335
And it's in the marketplace of like, yes, no on a bid is really like a truth seeking signal.

1418
01:04:41,575 --> 01:04:48,475
And it's kind of what we talk about with like Stacker News or what we hope that like, oh, maybe Bitcoin can be part of the thing.

1419
01:04:48,475 --> 01:05:00,455
But instead of it just being like the scarcity or proof of work tied to a particular piece of information in an upvote, it actually resolves the world through kind of bid-ask spreads and convergence.

1420
01:05:01,615 --> 01:05:08,795
And so actually, like a prediction market is more like a new Twitter than it is just like some new exchange in my mind.

1421
01:05:09,115 --> 01:05:11,855
And by the way, there is a beautiful post on Stacker News.

1422
01:05:11,975 --> 01:05:13,575
And by the way, I'm super bullish on Stacker News.

1423
01:05:13,655 --> 01:05:15,795
I've always been bullish on Stacker News, but I'm continuing to.

1424
01:05:15,795 --> 01:05:21,395
kian has finished his like 15 month migration or whatever to be non-custodial and he's he sent us

1425
01:05:21,395 --> 01:05:25,355
all an update and said on the site as well that he's gonna be focusing on like user requests again

1426
01:05:25,355 --> 01:05:30,355
which and making things nice and kian he has one of the big brains so i'm excited um but like

1427
01:05:30,355 --> 01:05:35,955
someone made a post where they're like the stacker news front page is an auction yep and i mean

1428
01:05:35,955 --> 01:05:41,035
auction prediction market like whatever but like i i think and kian if you happen to listen this

1429
01:05:41,035 --> 01:05:45,195
i hope you continue to explore this idea of agents using stacker news as well which i know you've

1430
01:05:45,195 --> 01:05:50,475
already kind of built that in there. But using Stacker News and things like it as information

1431
01:05:50,475 --> 01:05:56,235
discovery tools, like that's where the big, big idea is. And you can already see it just like in

1432
01:05:56,235 --> 01:06:00,075
a very simple term. It's like, what filters to the top of your Stacker News page? Well, you can

1433
01:06:00,075 --> 01:06:04,775
have all the bots in the world that are just slop, slop, slop, slop, slop. But like you have to pay

1434
01:06:04,775 --> 01:06:09,855
and people then pay with their money to upvote. Like that is non-forgeable. That's the point of

1435
01:06:09,855 --> 01:06:13,615
money. That's why Bitcoin matters. And because Bitcoin is tied to proof of work and energy,

1436
01:06:13,615 --> 01:06:14,415
you can't forge it.

1437
01:06:14,495 --> 01:06:15,315
That's the whole point.

1438
01:06:16,655 --> 01:06:16,755
Yeah.

1439
01:06:16,815 --> 01:06:16,995
All right.

1440
01:06:17,295 --> 01:06:17,555
Amen.

1441
01:06:17,915 --> 01:06:19,195
How about we get back to...

1442
01:06:19,195 --> 01:06:19,475
Amen, brother.

1443
01:06:19,835 --> 01:06:20,655
I got to tell you,

1444
01:06:20,695 --> 01:06:22,355
I went to church in Oakland

1445
01:06:22,355 --> 01:06:23,395
for the first time recently.

1446
01:06:23,815 --> 01:06:25,155
It reminded me of going to church

1447
01:06:25,155 --> 01:06:25,975
on the Pacific Gulf Coast

1448
01:06:25,975 --> 01:06:26,855
in New Orleans as a kid.

1449
01:06:27,275 --> 01:06:28,035
There was a lot of amens.

1450
01:06:28,135 --> 01:06:28,555
It was great.

1451
01:06:28,675 --> 01:06:29,055
I love it.

1452
01:06:29,275 --> 01:06:29,375
Nice.

1453
01:06:29,975 --> 01:06:31,035
You guys wanted to talk about

1454
01:06:31,035 --> 01:06:32,915
teenagers vibe coding,

1455
01:06:33,035 --> 01:06:33,555
I think, right?

1456
01:06:33,715 --> 01:06:33,935
Yeah.

1457
01:06:34,595 --> 01:06:36,075
So a couple angles on this.

1458
01:06:36,195 --> 01:06:36,855
I mean, actually,

1459
01:06:37,935 --> 01:06:38,495
we're just talking about

1460
01:06:38,495 --> 01:06:39,335
prediction markets.

1461
01:06:39,335 --> 01:06:43,575
and also

1462
01:06:43,575 --> 01:06:45,915
DK you shared a post that Shazan

1463
01:06:45,915 --> 01:06:48,055
just posted

1464
01:06:48,055 --> 01:06:49,995
about younger people

1465
01:06:49,995 --> 01:06:51,455
not feeling like they can

1466
01:06:51,455 --> 01:06:53,795
become wealthy or grow their wealth

1467
01:06:53,795 --> 01:06:55,815
so they're turning to like you know crypto trading

1468
01:06:55,815 --> 01:06:57,935
and now prediction markets as a way

1469
01:06:57,935 --> 01:06:58,515
to gambling

1470
01:06:58,515 --> 01:07:01,815
which can be unhealthy and

1471
01:07:01,815 --> 01:07:03,935
ultimately for most people is not a way

1472
01:07:03,935 --> 01:07:04,955
it's a way to

1473
01:07:04,955 --> 01:07:06,635
it's a negative EV

1474
01:07:06,635 --> 01:07:07,475
dishes on top.

1475
01:07:09,375 --> 01:07:11,395
So perhaps a healthier way

1476
01:07:11,395 --> 01:07:13,395
is the time-tested entrepreneurial

1477
01:07:13,395 --> 01:07:15,015
approach where you build

1478
01:07:15,015 --> 01:07:17,475
value creation for the world

1479
01:07:17,475 --> 01:07:19,235
and then you get a portion of that.

1480
01:07:20,975 --> 01:07:21,355
So

1481
01:07:21,355 --> 01:07:23,535
vibe coding is a

1482
01:07:23,535 --> 01:07:25,475
way that makes it accessible to

1483
01:07:25,475 --> 01:07:27,515
way more people to build things.

1484
01:07:27,515 --> 01:07:28,695
We've talked about that a lot.

1485
01:07:31,355 --> 01:07:33,515
I had an insight. I actually

1486
01:07:33,515 --> 01:07:35,635
was playing

1487
01:07:35,635 --> 01:07:39,535
a mobile game and I got an ad for Kalshi,

1488
01:07:39,535 --> 01:07:41,015
like one of the prediction markets, right?

1489
01:07:41,015 --> 01:07:41,515
Yep.

1490
01:07:41,515 --> 01:07:43,375
And it just made me realize, oh,

1491
01:07:43,375 --> 01:07:45,815
you know, this is how they're acquiring

1492
01:07:45,815 --> 01:07:50,995
a lot of customers, probably a lot of younger folks

1493
01:07:50,995 --> 01:07:51,495
to do that.

1494
01:07:51,495 --> 01:08:09,393
And it like why not instead try to get teens and younger I mean a lot of people but including teens to start vibe coding because it absolutely accessible to them They going to have incredible ideas ideas that no one else in the world can think of They can create them And then now with like things like MDK

1495
01:08:09,393 --> 01:08:17,593
it's so easy to add payments. And also, you know, if they're in India or someplace around the world,

1496
01:08:17,993 --> 01:08:24,073
or they're just young and more risk-taking, like, you know, generating and also generating

1497
01:08:24,073 --> 01:08:24,933
small amounts of revenue,

1498
01:08:25,333 --> 01:08:26,833
there's going to be more risk-taking.

1499
01:08:27,712 --> 01:08:28,973
And I want to be clear

1500
01:08:28,973 --> 01:08:30,273
because I think the genius inside

1501
01:08:30,273 --> 01:08:31,033
of what you're saying here,

1502
01:08:31,152 --> 01:08:32,232
like the India part is great,

1503
01:08:32,313 --> 01:08:33,933
but in the US, if you're under 18,

1504
01:08:33,993 --> 01:08:34,773
you can't open a bank account.

1505
01:08:37,292 --> 01:08:38,033
Stop, right?

1506
01:08:38,152 --> 01:08:38,773
That's huge.

1507
01:08:39,093 --> 01:08:40,553
Think about, I think,

1508
01:08:40,852 --> 01:08:42,413
how many super smart kids,

1509
01:08:42,473 --> 01:08:43,192
you know, like all the kids

1510
01:08:43,192 --> 01:08:44,632
that are going to go to MIT or whatever

1511
01:08:44,632 --> 01:08:45,652
that are sitting there

1512
01:08:45,652 --> 01:08:48,273
in some daycare center, i.e. school,

1513
01:08:48,792 --> 01:08:50,533
that if they could start a business

1514
01:08:50,533 --> 01:08:51,433
from class when they're supposed

1515
01:08:51,433 --> 01:08:51,933
to be studying?

1516
01:08:51,933 --> 01:08:58,752
what would they start? I think the big difference too is this is a positive EV.

1517
01:08:59,292 --> 01:09:04,813
Yes. Right. Instead of negative EV, because I think what's happened is as, you know,

1518
01:09:05,033 --> 01:09:09,212
take an 18 year old 50 years ago, we could probably like just get, you know, go to some

1519
01:09:09,212 --> 01:09:14,013
random college, get a random college educated job and actually buy a house. There's no way,

1520
01:09:14,112 --> 01:09:17,852
even if you're at the top end of the top end, you can barely do that without a bunch of good

1521
01:09:17,852 --> 01:09:23,573
fortune hitting you. So everybody who's 18 has gotten pushed out on the risk curve really far.

1522
01:09:23,973 --> 01:09:29,212
So the only way to possibly do something is to get lucky at it versus, so you end up getting,

1523
01:09:29,313 --> 01:09:33,792
you know, all the value gets sucked by these platforms and sort of the old heads. But with

1524
01:09:33,792 --> 01:09:43,112
vibe coding, instead of, you know, spending a ton of money, you can vibe code something for 25 bucks,

1525
01:09:43,112 --> 01:09:46,093
And you could end up making a million dollars out of that.

1526
01:09:46,533 --> 01:09:50,033
So you turn that betting, it's a form of gambling.

1527
01:09:50,172 --> 01:09:51,192
Entrepreneurship is a form of gambling.

1528
01:09:51,352 --> 01:09:55,313
It's like you've got that buzz, you've got that excitement, that potential for the huge

1529
01:09:55,313 --> 01:09:55,632
outcome.

1530
01:09:56,112 --> 01:10:00,073
Well, you can do that now with $25 input and a million dollars output.

1531
01:10:00,252 --> 01:10:02,893
That's a positive EV type of calculation.

1532
01:10:03,612 --> 01:10:07,433
So I think you can actually move that same instinct that drives people toward gambling

1533
01:10:07,433 --> 01:10:09,393
and move it toward, let's gamble on ourselves.

1534
01:10:10,232 --> 01:10:10,632
Yeah.

1535
01:10:10,752 --> 01:10:11,352
And a positive EV.

1536
01:10:11,352 --> 01:10:18,913
The bottom line, and even though not everyone's going to spend $25 to get a million, there will be losers just like an entrepreneurial game.

1537
01:10:18,913 --> 01:10:26,473
But the sum total, though, it's creating value in the world and growing the pie where gambling is not.

1538
01:10:27,013 --> 01:10:30,112
So I think two big thoughts to crystallize for me.

1539
01:10:30,192 --> 01:10:31,453
Number one is exactly that.

1540
01:10:31,453 --> 01:10:39,152
I think there is so much in the world today, anger about wealth and equality and disparity

1541
01:10:39,152 --> 01:10:48,453
and all this stuff because there's a fundamental confusion between wealth generation, entrepreneurship

1542
01:10:48,453 --> 01:10:55,232
and growing the pie versus finding tricky ways to get more of a fixed pie.

1543
01:10:55,893 --> 01:10:58,953
A lot of people hate on quote unquote rich people or whatever because they just think

1544
01:10:58,953 --> 01:11:05,212
at them as these, and rightfully so, like basically tricksters who are bankers or whatever playing

1545
01:11:05,212 --> 01:11:10,453
pee and shell games and just like take your money. And, or, or people that just got lucky

1546
01:11:10,453 --> 01:11:15,033
gambling, just like you spun a wheel, you know, fuck you, you won, like everyone else loses.

1547
01:11:15,273 --> 01:11:21,192
So it is the difference between zero sum and positive sum. And that is critical, critical,

1548
01:11:21,433 --> 01:11:26,473
like maybe the most important thing for a whole society to internalize. If you're just spinning

1549
01:11:26,473 --> 01:11:30,373
a wheel or you're doing tricky stuff to make money, then like you're hurting everyone else.

1550
01:11:30,712 --> 01:11:35,093
If you build something net new and you are an entrepreneur and you create, you grow the pie

1551
01:11:35,093 --> 01:11:38,252
and you get a piece of that pie, but everyone else gets an even bigger piece of the pie because

1552
01:11:38,252 --> 01:11:41,373
that's what you're doing is you're taking some of the value you create, not all of it.

1553
01:11:41,773 --> 01:11:46,473
Like definitionally, you're making society a wealthier, quote unquote, more productive,

1554
01:11:46,672 --> 01:11:52,033
interesting place. So, you know, my hope for society and with tools like this is you can,

1555
01:11:52,273 --> 01:11:55,993
yeah, like not only like, is this a great business opportunity to get young kids making stuff,

1556
01:11:55,993 --> 01:12:02,413
But this is a way to teach, instead of nihilism and gambling, this is a way to teach basically being a positive member of society.

1557
01:12:03,273 --> 01:12:03,352
Yeah.

1558
01:12:03,573 --> 01:12:15,132
So going back to how can we double down on the Bitcoin payments narrative, this to me is something that's not only trying to grow Bitcoin payments, but it's trying to improve society.

1559
01:12:15,453 --> 01:12:19,813
A much more positive message to send to young people, become entrepreneurs.

1560
01:12:20,152 --> 01:12:21,953
It's never been easier to become an entrepreneur.

1561
01:12:21,953 --> 01:12:26,172
her totally and i would i would even take that one step further which is to say not only is it a

1562
01:12:26,172 --> 01:12:32,273
great positive message but like think about like you know i kind of joked about this sorry i'm

1563
01:12:32,273 --> 01:12:41,033
playing footsie with steve i kind of joked about this but i dk is out here dk is out and i don't

1564
01:12:41,033 --> 01:12:45,132
know i don't know what the right what the right joke is but um i should pay you to get the right

1565
01:12:45,132 --> 01:12:53,612
like think about and i want to figure this out as an investor's way like sort of selfishly i see a

1566
01:12:53,612 --> 01:12:59,953
huge opportunity right which is you know what arguably has been like the most successful

1567
01:12:59,953 --> 01:13:08,973
pseudo investment thing of the last 20 years tether well i maybe want to phrase it better

1568
01:13:08,973 --> 01:13:12,752
because it's not exactly an investment but like i'll just cut to the chase it's the teal fellowship

1569
01:13:12,752 --> 01:13:18,953
right like teal fellowship is probably the highest hit rate invest i say investment in quotes because

1570
01:13:18,953 --> 01:13:23,192
i don't think there was any equity tied to it was just right right whatever but why was the teal

1571
01:13:23,192 --> 01:13:28,573
fellowship so successful well it took a secret about the world which is to say that there are a

1572
01:13:28,573 --> 01:13:33,612
lot of really really really smart people that have capability to go and do really really cool things

1573
01:13:33,612 --> 01:13:38,333
that are getting sucked off into an old world dying system to become like i don't know like

1574
01:13:38,333 --> 01:13:40,373
get useless credentials in college, right?

1575
01:13:40,672 --> 01:13:43,732
And so Peter Thiel, who often sees things way out of the curve,

1576
01:13:44,152 --> 01:13:48,573
realized if you could give these people enough support financially and otherwise

1577
01:13:48,573 --> 01:13:51,913
to, as you say, take a risk on yourself, try things,

1578
01:13:51,933 --> 01:13:52,973
and you find really smart people,

1579
01:13:53,172 --> 01:13:54,453
they're probably going to build really big things.

1580
01:13:54,792 --> 01:13:56,473
And I think even more than YC,

1581
01:13:56,533 --> 01:13:58,093
and YC is kind of a form of this too,

1582
01:13:58,172 --> 01:13:59,273
I think they, I don't know,

1583
01:13:59,273 --> 01:14:02,513
the amount of billion-dollar ideas that have come out of this is insane.

1584
01:14:02,792 --> 01:14:03,893
You can go look at the list for yourself.

1585
01:14:04,913 --> 01:14:07,333
And there's also, that's sort of looking at it

1586
01:14:07,333 --> 01:14:09,333
with sort of like the traditional venture capital,

1587
01:14:09,612 --> 01:14:10,732
billion dollar idea business.

1588
01:14:11,172 --> 01:14:14,413
But could you imagine the kid who's like 15

1589
01:14:14,413 --> 01:14:17,593
who builds a business that generates $10 million a year?

1590
01:14:17,813 --> 01:14:18,273
Life-changing.

1591
01:14:18,913 --> 01:14:19,593
Life-changing.

1592
01:14:20,413 --> 01:14:20,533
Yeah.

1593
01:14:20,573 --> 01:14:22,352
I mean, just whatever you want.

1594
01:14:22,473 --> 01:14:24,873
You can double down, you can grow it,

1595
01:14:24,993 --> 01:14:26,852
you can keep it and do other lifestyle things.

1596
01:14:26,852 --> 01:14:29,513
The opportunities are just immense.

1597
01:14:29,953 --> 01:14:31,252
So I see the opportunity with MDK.

1598
01:14:31,373 --> 01:14:33,973
And I was asking Google, I don't know if I can do this yet.

1599
01:14:34,232 --> 01:14:36,732
I would love to do some sort of like a contest

1600
01:14:36,732 --> 01:14:41,393
where it's like, okay, MDK targets high schoolers,

1601
01:14:41,453 --> 01:14:44,333
smart kids between the ages of whatever, 13 and 18,

1602
01:14:44,493 --> 01:14:45,913
but can't open a bank account yet.

1603
01:14:46,433 --> 01:14:49,893
Hey, kid, are you trapped in some boring ass daycare

1604
01:14:49,893 --> 01:14:51,413
where they're trying to tell you information

1605
01:14:51,413 --> 01:14:52,852
that was already useless two years ago?

1606
01:14:53,033 --> 01:14:53,232
Cool.

1607
01:14:53,652 --> 01:14:55,513
Instead, why not sit there in class

1608
01:14:55,513 --> 01:14:56,833
and do something useful for the world,

1609
01:14:57,333 --> 01:14:58,612
build an incredible business,

1610
01:14:59,053 --> 01:15:01,573
and I would love to figure out how to invest.

1611
01:15:01,712 --> 01:15:04,033
All right, whoever wins, whatever,

1612
01:15:04,192 --> 01:15:05,453
your first 100K into the business,

1613
01:15:05,453 --> 01:15:08,573
which you know selfishly that's a great deal now

1614
01:15:08,573 --> 01:15:12,612
Google says the kids can't quite sign legally binding contracts yet so

1615
01:15:12,612 --> 01:15:16,073
there's more to figure out but I think it's basically just taking the Teal

1616
01:15:16,073 --> 01:15:20,473
Fellowship ideal and going a level earlier and so I think you know Nick if

1617
01:15:20,473 --> 01:15:24,732
you're still listening to this I really believe enabling everyone but

1618
01:15:24,732 --> 01:15:28,413
particularly the really like capable kids they're already capable at 14 like

1619
01:15:28,413 --> 01:15:31,473
remember you guys in high school like I'm guessing you were already pretty

1620
01:15:31,473 --> 01:15:35,232
freaking smart I know my friends were and like yeah

1621
01:15:35,232 --> 01:15:37,373
A lot of them were kind of just like wasted six years.

1622
01:15:37,453 --> 01:15:39,593
And not wasted because there's other experience.

1623
01:15:39,593 --> 01:15:45,232
I was talking to a friend of mine who was instrumental in helping establish.

1624
01:15:45,833 --> 01:15:47,212
That's the me right there.

1625
01:15:47,513 --> 01:15:49,973
Nick came in with the, what's his name?

1626
01:15:50,073 --> 01:15:52,973
The Mr. Pink from Boardwalk and Five.

1627
01:15:53,413 --> 01:15:55,373
You know, how do you do fellow kids?

1628
01:15:57,852 --> 01:16:02,433
No, but a friend of mine who was instrumental in helping establish the Teal Fellowship.

1629
01:16:02,513 --> 01:16:04,813
And I pitched him on your idea that you discussed.

1630
01:16:05,232 --> 01:16:11,252
And he's like, this seems like the right way to upstream that.

1631
01:16:11,373 --> 01:16:12,813
That thing, great.

1632
01:16:12,953 --> 01:16:16,292
It upstreamed a lot of the more traditional channels.

1633
01:16:16,612 --> 01:16:21,172
But you can actually upstream that now because you can actually accept payments and build things.

1634
01:16:21,333 --> 01:16:21,692
Exactly.

1635
01:16:21,692 --> 01:16:22,433
And you don't need.

1636
01:16:22,712 --> 01:16:25,232
So I think you put together a 100K prize.

1637
01:16:25,373 --> 01:16:34,053
Give one Bitcoin or whatever it is and make a prize and get people to apply and enter and then compete for the prize.

1638
01:16:34,053 --> 01:16:36,033
and up-level and motivate people to be,

1639
01:16:36,133 --> 01:16:36,973
because you don't need,

1640
01:16:37,252 --> 01:16:38,013
the Teal fellow was like,

1641
01:16:38,093 --> 01:16:38,633
drop out of school,

1642
01:16:38,692 --> 01:16:39,652
I'm going to give you 100K

1643
01:16:39,652 --> 01:16:41,152
because there's some cost to it, right?

1644
01:16:41,732 --> 01:16:42,913
This is actually upstream of that.

1645
01:16:43,013 --> 01:16:44,252
This is, don't drop out of school.

1646
01:16:44,373 --> 01:16:44,953
You're in high school.

1647
01:16:45,352 --> 01:16:46,292
Here's 25 bucks.

1648
01:16:46,553 --> 01:16:48,652
A replet will donate the CPU cycles.

1649
01:16:49,072 --> 01:16:50,652
Go build something awesome, right?

1650
01:16:50,692 --> 01:16:51,612
As part of this program,

1651
01:16:52,072 --> 01:16:53,413
compete for one Bitcoin

1652
01:16:53,413 --> 01:16:54,513
that you're going to get paid out

1653
01:16:54,513 --> 01:16:55,513
if you win this program.

1654
01:16:55,513 --> 01:16:58,072
And whoever can maybe generate the most money

1655
01:16:58,072 --> 01:17:00,413
in the first 180 days

1656
01:17:00,413 --> 01:17:01,833
gets the Bitcoin prize.

1657
01:17:02,273 --> 01:17:03,712
So that's exactly what I was thinking.

1658
01:17:04,053 --> 01:17:06,773
and I'm super in to do that.

1659
01:17:07,292 --> 01:17:08,873
We just need to figure out how to structure the contract.

1660
01:17:09,493 --> 01:17:10,473
If there's even a contract,

1661
01:17:10,572 --> 01:17:11,893
or maybe it's just like, you know,

1662
01:17:11,993 --> 01:17:14,752
if it's a refund, then it's just a gift or something.

1663
01:17:15,393 --> 01:17:16,413
Donors or, you know.

1664
01:17:16,672 --> 01:17:17,072
Exactly.

1665
01:17:17,252 --> 01:17:17,993
It could just be a non-profit.

1666
01:17:17,993 --> 01:17:19,033
You can put your fund fees into it.

1667
01:17:22,633 --> 01:17:26,672
Maybe our theoretical saver here can contribute.

1668
01:17:28,072 --> 01:17:33,433
Much better position than Biddy and co.

1669
01:17:34,053 --> 01:17:39,152
it's a good idea and honestly like nick like this has the kind of thing to be like

1670
01:17:39,152 --> 01:17:45,833
society transforming so there also may or may not be a new community launching next week

1671
01:17:45,833 --> 01:17:51,773
there is if it might launch nick if it does launch next week we'll probably talk about in the show

1672
01:17:51,773 --> 01:17:59,313
next week um that could be a vehicle that could be a vehicle for uh yeah i know i was i was not

1673
01:17:59,313 --> 01:18:03,993
sure how much that may overlap with this because they're the related but they kind of rhyme but

1674
01:18:03,993 --> 01:18:05,112
they're not quite the same, right?

1675
01:18:05,533 --> 01:18:05,692
Yeah.

1676
01:18:06,212 --> 01:18:09,672
We'll have to, in our other chat group,

1677
01:18:09,752 --> 01:18:10,612
the one without Max,

1678
01:18:10,692 --> 01:18:11,692
we'll have to discuss that.

1679
01:18:12,553 --> 01:18:13,893
It's just me, Stephen Biddy.

1680
01:18:15,373 --> 01:18:18,232
This should be in the MDK job.

1681
01:18:18,773 --> 01:18:19,393
I'm offended.

1682
01:18:21,212 --> 01:18:23,252
Unless, since DK's already volunteered

1683
01:18:23,252 --> 01:18:24,093
to fund it all, fine.

1684
01:18:24,273 --> 01:18:25,053
I'll be keeping your own chat.

1685
01:18:26,493 --> 01:18:29,093
Anyhow, I think, I'm actually,

1686
01:18:29,393 --> 01:18:31,252
I was already excited about this

1687
01:18:31,252 --> 01:18:32,212
before talking about it on the show,

1688
01:18:32,273 --> 01:18:33,033
but just talking about it now,

1689
01:18:33,033 --> 01:18:35,232
I find it invigorating.

1690
01:18:35,493 --> 01:18:35,633
Yeah.

1691
01:18:36,273 --> 01:18:38,633
Steve, I'm curious now, because you have

1692
01:18:38,633 --> 01:18:40,893
maybe the most depth on each of these.

1693
01:18:40,893 --> 01:18:42,893
Do you feel like this

1694
01:18:42,893 --> 01:18:43,593
thing is

1695
01:18:43,593 --> 01:18:45,652
different or is it

1696
01:18:45,652 --> 01:18:48,172
a branch of the same?

1697
01:18:48,893 --> 01:18:49,833
Is it a different program?

1698
01:18:53,712 --> 01:18:55,112
It's maybe an evolution

1699
01:18:55,112 --> 01:18:57,072
of it. It's maybe like phase two.

1700
01:18:58,152 --> 01:18:58,913
Could be

1701
01:18:58,913 --> 01:18:59,292
separate.

1702
01:18:59,292 --> 01:19:05,513
let's i mean let's chat about it next week because i think when we're when we're less like

1703
01:19:05,513 --> 01:19:12,273
but what i bet if we just like similar to the advice i was giving don't talk about bitcoin

1704
01:19:12,273 --> 01:19:19,572
don't talk about nostr i wonder if this program were just kind of like a a vibe code for a prize

1705
01:19:19,572 --> 01:19:26,093
kind of thing that you could get tons of hitters involved with and really draw a lot of attention

1706
01:19:26,093 --> 01:19:26,993
to the thing.

1707
01:19:27,773 --> 01:19:29,373
It happens to be that maybe MDK and Bitcoin

1708
01:19:29,373 --> 01:19:31,112
is how you mostly take payments,

1709
01:19:31,192 --> 01:19:33,133
but you also take stable coins if you want.

1710
01:19:33,212 --> 01:19:34,192
And there's a lot of ways to integrate those.

1711
01:19:34,333 --> 01:19:37,413
But really the program is not necessarily about Bitcoin,

1712
01:19:37,533 --> 01:19:39,453
but it's about getting paid for your work,

1713
01:19:39,553 --> 01:19:40,732
building things and getting paid

1714
01:19:40,732 --> 01:19:41,993
when you're like in high school.

1715
01:19:42,112 --> 01:19:42,252
Totally.

1716
01:19:42,413 --> 01:19:43,553
And I think the key thing,

1717
01:19:43,612 --> 01:19:44,873
I don't know about the stable coin piece,

1718
01:19:44,993 --> 01:19:45,553
maybe you can,

1719
01:19:45,612 --> 01:19:47,373
but like the key insight here

1720
01:19:47,373 --> 01:19:48,593
is that it's permissionless.

1721
01:19:49,053 --> 01:19:50,252
So you don't need a bank account.

1722
01:19:50,333 --> 01:19:52,212
So if you're 12 or 13 or 14,

1723
01:19:52,212 --> 01:19:54,172
I mean, no one can stop you.

1724
01:19:54,172 --> 01:19:59,913
and i'm sure replet has got to love this right i mean so good of course this is i mean this is

1725
01:19:59,913 --> 01:20:03,852
like all john's original vision if you go back to the way he used to talk i mean they went all

1726
01:20:03,852 --> 01:20:07,373
kind of like enterprise because it kind of had to but like if you listen to him from seven years ago

1727
01:20:07,373 --> 01:20:11,973
his whole thing was how do i empower kids like me when i was back in you know the middle east

1728
01:20:11,973 --> 01:20:17,852
i don't have access don't have opportunity i mean this is literally his his mission or it was yeah

1729
01:20:17,852 --> 01:20:20,453
alright

1730
01:20:20,453 --> 01:20:22,072
let's ring the bell on that

1731
01:20:22,072 --> 01:20:24,893
I better be in that chat too

1732
01:20:24,893 --> 01:20:28,572
we got a few left

1733
01:20:28,572 --> 01:20:30,172
we're going to talk about Buck

1734
01:20:30,172 --> 01:20:31,192
real quick

1735
01:20:31,192 --> 01:20:33,493
DK wasn't sure

1736
01:20:33,493 --> 01:20:35,572
if we should talk about it or not

1737
01:20:35,572 --> 01:20:37,352
I find it interesting

1738
01:20:37,352 --> 01:20:38,953
I don't know

1739
01:20:38,953 --> 01:20:41,652
I didn't want to try to tee it up

1740
01:20:41,652 --> 01:20:43,692
because I didn't think I knew enough

1741
01:20:43,692 --> 01:20:45,533
and I'm not an expert on Buck

1742
01:20:45,533 --> 01:20:46,752
I didn't research Buck

1743
01:20:46,752 --> 01:20:48,152
But what is Buck?

1744
01:20:51,593 --> 01:20:52,172
What's it?

1745
01:20:52,273 --> 01:20:53,192
Travis Zander?

1746
01:20:53,252 --> 01:20:54,672
Travis Vander Zanden.

1747
01:20:54,913 --> 01:20:57,453
Vander Zanden announced it this week.

1748
01:20:58,692 --> 01:21:01,712
He has an interesting backstory with Lyft and Uber.

1749
01:21:01,893 --> 01:21:03,873
People can go research if they want.

1750
01:21:04,732 --> 01:21:05,093
And Bird.

1751
01:21:05,192 --> 01:21:06,013
He was the founder of Bird.

1752
01:21:06,072 --> 01:21:06,633
And he found Bird.

1753
01:21:06,652 --> 01:21:08,652
He tried to cleanse from the internet.

1754
01:21:09,313 --> 01:21:14,212
And I also saw some Bitcoiners like Plutteter shitting on it.

1755
01:21:14,212 --> 01:21:15,292
So let me be clear.

1756
01:21:15,292 --> 01:21:17,152
I'm not advocating buck.

1757
01:21:17,313 --> 01:21:21,413
I don't know anything about the company or the token.

1758
01:21:22,393 --> 01:21:23,652
As Steve says, he goes all in all.

1759
01:21:25,953 --> 01:21:29,252
I may or may not have received a 20% pre-mine.

1760
01:21:29,433 --> 01:21:30,433
No pre-mine here.

1761
01:21:31,373 --> 01:21:39,112
The reason I found it interesting is because it literally was predicted on this show five months ago.

1762
01:21:39,112 --> 01:21:59,913
It was when we were talking about Stretch, STRC, one of the equities from MicroStrategy, where they've created what we viewed as a stable coin built on Bitcoin, though, not on U.S. treasuries and a reserve like that.

1763
01:21:59,913 --> 01:22:04,612
And we talked about, you know, maybe Robinhood could create the token or a third party.

1764
01:22:04,852 --> 01:22:05,833
And well, guess what?

1765
01:22:06,172 --> 01:22:08,712
That's exactly what Buck appears to be to me.

1766
01:22:09,033 --> 01:22:14,413
It's built on top of Stretch and it offers 7% yield.

1767
01:22:16,232 --> 01:22:21,292
Stretch is paying, I don't know what it's paying now, but it was in the 9% to 10% range.

1768
01:22:21,633 --> 01:22:22,333
It's 11% now.

1769
01:22:22,453 --> 01:22:23,852
11, yeah, he kicked it up to 11.

1770
01:22:23,973 --> 01:22:25,093
So there's a margin there.

1771
01:22:25,093 --> 01:22:33,913
Now, one of the criticisms I saw from Pleditor, the Pleditor account, which I didn't go confirm, is that they're taking half the yield themselves.

1772
01:22:34,013 --> 01:22:34,993
Well, they're taking 4%.

1773
01:22:34,993 --> 01:22:35,593
Buckas.

1774
01:22:37,093 --> 01:22:37,333
Yeah.

1775
01:22:37,553 --> 01:22:43,352
Well, it wasn't clear to me if it's just that spread or if they're taking even, or I don't know.

1776
01:22:43,593 --> 01:22:43,933
I don't know.

1777
01:22:44,093 --> 01:22:44,313
Anyway.

1778
01:22:45,973 --> 01:22:48,393
So I have no, yeah, I have no idea.

1779
01:22:48,633 --> 01:22:50,292
Is this a scam or not a scam?

1780
01:22:50,373 --> 01:22:50,712
I don't know.

1781
01:22:50,712 --> 01:22:54,513
But assuming there's no weird gotchas,

1782
01:22:54,933 --> 01:22:57,993
then it is a form of what we thought could be created.

1783
01:22:57,993 --> 01:23:03,352
And as long as there's not any scammy type aspects to it,

1784
01:23:03,393 --> 01:23:05,493
I think it's an interesting thing.

1785
01:23:06,093 --> 01:23:09,893
Because, again, I assume it's not a pre-mine.

1786
01:23:10,252 --> 01:23:10,692
I assume there's not.

1787
01:23:10,953 --> 01:23:13,172
A lot of the things that we don't like about other tokens

1788
01:23:13,172 --> 01:23:15,313
that are created I don't think apply here.

1789
01:23:15,313 --> 01:23:31,893
So assuming the total risk is the stretch, you know, the risk you're taking on with stretch, and then you'd also be taking on some kind of risk with this new company around Bok.

1790
01:23:32,953 --> 01:23:36,252
You know, as long as it's limited to that risk, I think it's an interesting introduction.

1791
01:23:36,852 --> 01:23:38,313
So, yeah, I agree.

1792
01:23:38,393 --> 01:23:38,692
It's interesting.

1793
01:23:38,813 --> 01:23:39,813
I'm glad you brought it up.

1794
01:23:39,813 --> 01:23:42,672
One thing I know, I did a little bit more research on it.

1795
01:23:42,692 --> 01:23:45,593
And one thing I'll note is that it's not available to people in the U.S.

1796
01:23:46,732 --> 01:23:48,913
And I think that's because there's been this.

1797
01:23:48,913 --> 01:23:49,232
Theoretically.

1798
01:23:50,133 --> 01:23:50,533
Theoretically.

1799
01:23:51,033 --> 01:23:53,013
Only U.S. or ex-U.S. or U.S.?

1800
01:23:53,013 --> 01:23:53,533
Ex-U.S.

1801
01:23:54,393 --> 01:23:56,033
In the U.S. you're not allowed to use it.

1802
01:23:56,112 --> 01:23:56,352
Okay.

1803
01:23:56,973 --> 01:24:01,112
And I think that's because, I think it violates all the recent stablecoin legislation.

1804
01:24:01,593 --> 01:24:06,893
I think the recent stablecoin legislation was saying you cannot share yield with consumers, right?

1805
01:24:06,893 --> 01:24:10,773
And for obvious reasons, that's kind of a protectionist clause.

1806
01:24:11,572 --> 01:24:13,873
And so they are sharing yield with consumers.

1807
01:24:14,212 --> 01:24:25,833
And so they say no U.S., which I think is actually a real opportunity is to like create stable coins that do share yield of various forms with consumers, with the users of the coin.

1808
01:24:25,993 --> 01:24:32,112
But I mean, that might not be enough to get it off the ground, but it's it does not allow it doesn't support U.S. users.

1809
01:24:33,053 --> 01:24:34,292
So I have a lot of thoughts on this.

1810
01:24:34,292 --> 01:24:41,712
I think, again, if you kind of take your hat of just like see reality clearly and how it's going, I think this is like, this is exactly what we predicted.

1811
01:24:41,833 --> 01:24:46,273
It's like, actually, it's all playing out exactly as it should and makes sense.

1812
01:24:47,553 --> 01:24:51,513
So there was a podcast that I recommend listening to.

1813
01:24:51,672 --> 01:24:53,133
I think I showed it in the group chat over the break.

1814
01:24:53,192 --> 01:24:57,593
If you haven't checked it out, it was a recent sailor interview on, I think it was on the Galaxy one.

1815
01:24:58,072 --> 01:24:58,593
It was excellent.

1816
01:24:58,652 --> 01:24:59,313
Your advice, yeah.

1817
01:24:59,833 --> 01:25:00,672
Absolutely excellent.

1818
01:25:00,672 --> 01:25:06,852
And look, I mean, he talks about that same thing, the stretch as effectively a yielded stablecoin, right?

1819
01:25:06,913 --> 01:25:09,232
He literally asks people to do what this guy is doing.

1820
01:25:09,712 --> 01:25:12,192
And, you know, you can have your own opinions on Saylor.

1821
01:25:12,273 --> 01:25:16,913
And I know for like the hardcore Bitcoin people, it's like, whatever, he's doing something different than what you want.

1822
01:25:16,953 --> 01:25:17,313
That's fine.

1823
01:25:17,692 --> 01:25:18,852
Just again, zoom out.

1824
01:25:18,953 --> 01:25:20,712
This is how we get, you don't go from A to Z.

1825
01:25:20,813 --> 01:25:21,752
You go to A to B, B to C.

1826
01:25:21,852 --> 01:25:23,152
That's just, that's how reality works.

1827
01:25:23,752 --> 01:25:26,893
And so what Saylor did,

1828
01:25:26,973 --> 01:25:28,572
and I have to give him credit,

1829
01:25:28,813 --> 01:25:31,913
you know, regardless of what you think of him values,

1830
01:25:32,013 --> 01:25:34,413
like he is so damn smart and so damn eloquent

1831
01:25:34,413 --> 01:25:36,053
and he can take very complex ideas

1832
01:25:36,053 --> 01:25:37,973
and he can explain them beautifully.

1833
01:25:38,413 --> 01:25:41,013
So the way he explains it is his vision of the world,

1834
01:25:41,352 --> 01:25:43,513
his theory of change or whatever you want to call it today is

1835
01:25:43,513 --> 01:25:45,112
Bitcoin is capital.

1836
01:25:46,672 --> 01:25:49,232
Someone, well, Bitcoin is capital.

1837
01:25:49,913 --> 01:25:50,313
Bitcoin is money.

1838
01:25:51,053 --> 01:25:51,433
No, no, no.

1839
01:25:51,433 --> 01:25:55,752
critically bitcoin is capital not money this is important point oh yeah bitcoin is capital

1840
01:25:55,752 --> 01:26:04,192
his company strategy exists to be a refinery they take capital and just like you know if you're a

1841
01:26:04,192 --> 01:26:08,993
wildcatter in texas and you get this raw oil from the ground great that's a very valuable resource

1842
01:26:08,993 --> 01:26:15,013
i can't just like take that and put it into my car right so his company exists to refine the raw

1843
01:26:15,013 --> 01:26:20,612
capital into credit and that's what stretches and all of his different instruments he offers right

1844
01:26:20,612 --> 01:26:23,333
And so what does it mean to offer credit?

1845
01:26:23,513 --> 01:26:26,252
Well, you take capital and you package it.

1846
01:26:26,333 --> 01:26:27,612
I even sound like capital.

1847
01:26:28,933 --> 01:26:30,212
I package it.

1848
01:26:30,313 --> 01:26:31,993
I even got the mannerism now.

1849
01:26:32,232 --> 01:26:32,953
That's really good.

1850
01:26:33,352 --> 01:26:34,993
If I had my eyes closed, I would have thought, yeah.

1851
01:26:35,112 --> 01:26:35,993
Have you been working on that?

1852
01:26:36,273 --> 01:26:37,493
Bitcoin is digital capital.

1853
01:26:38,133 --> 01:26:39,393
Capital becomes credit.

1854
01:26:39,593 --> 01:26:39,953
How about this?

1855
01:26:39,953 --> 01:26:40,473
How about this, Max?

1856
01:26:40,473 --> 01:26:41,093
Credit becomes money.

1857
01:26:43,192 --> 01:26:45,393
Have you seen those ones?

1858
01:26:47,313 --> 01:26:48,553
But I got to give the guy,

1859
01:26:48,553 --> 01:26:48,953
I,

1860
01:26:48,953 --> 01:26:48,993
I,

1861
01:26:49,313 --> 01:26:49,513
sailor,

1862
01:26:49,572 --> 01:26:50,413
if you happen to listen to this ever,

1863
01:26:50,473 --> 01:26:51,133
like I'm teasing you,

1864
01:26:51,152 --> 01:26:52,072
but like respect,

1865
01:26:52,273 --> 01:26:54,933
like this guy's playing 12 D dress.

1866
01:26:55,013 --> 01:26:55,172
Right.

1867
01:26:55,652 --> 01:26:58,473
So capital becomes credit.

1868
01:26:58,893 --> 01:27:01,352
And so he offers different credit.

1869
01:27:02,813 --> 01:27:04,313
He takes the raw oil.

1870
01:27:06,533 --> 01:27:07,813
We should need Steve to do it.

1871
01:27:07,833 --> 01:27:09,033
Cause I believe Steve was called out.

1872
01:27:09,093 --> 01:27:09,993
Does the sailor look alike?

1873
01:27:10,072 --> 01:27:10,212
No,

1874
01:27:11,053 --> 01:27:12,273
I was called that,

1875
01:27:12,352 --> 01:27:12,672
but I,

1876
01:27:12,732 --> 01:27:13,732
I don't do imitations.

1877
01:27:13,973 --> 01:27:14,973
He's got the look,

1878
01:27:15,212 --> 01:27:15,433
Max,

1879
01:27:15,493 --> 01:27:16,133
he's got the voice.

1880
01:27:16,133 --> 01:27:24,413
so you take that and what you do then is you take the raw resource and you package it in a way that

1881
01:27:24,413 --> 01:27:28,533
the market can use just in the way that you take oil and you package in a way that the physical

1882
01:27:28,533 --> 01:27:33,732
infrastructure and world the cars can use and so he has all these different products stretch is a

1883
01:27:33,732 --> 01:27:40,232
very interesting product because it's targeting the uh the u.s treasury essentially and what he's

1884
01:27:40,232 --> 01:27:46,773
doing is he over collateralizes an instrument with Bitcoin. And so if you believe, I forget if

1885
01:27:46,773 --> 01:27:49,533
it's like 6x over collateralized or whatever it is, but if you believe, and you can go back and

1886
01:27:49,533 --> 01:27:53,313
listen to our comment on this five, six months ago, but if you believe that Bitcoin continues to grow

1887
01:27:53,313 --> 01:27:57,692
to Cagr of 20% or whatever it's been, 30% or even less than that, if you believe Bitcoin goes up

1888
01:27:57,692 --> 01:28:02,792
over time, then he's radically over collateralized. Now he has the $2 billion in cash as well to keep

1889
01:28:02,792 --> 01:28:08,833
making these payments. And he can give the market, people that want things like fixed income,

1890
01:28:08,833 --> 01:28:13,633
investors that need to buy equities, all these different things that maybe are bullish on Bitcoin,

1891
01:28:13,833 --> 01:28:18,112
believe in it at least enough to think it's going up 20% haggard over the next decade,

1892
01:28:18,553 --> 01:28:22,712
but they can't buy it directly, or they just want that, like, you know, maybe they're retired and

1893
01:28:22,712 --> 01:28:28,913
they want that sort of pension-like payment, then this is a perfect opportunity for them.

1894
01:28:29,413 --> 01:28:34,273
Now, what I missed when we talked about this last time was capital goes to credit,

1895
01:28:34,273 --> 01:28:38,852
And then we discussed, and I think DK, maybe it was you that said maybe he makes the stable coin.

1896
01:28:39,852 --> 01:28:49,112
What he then said in this podcast was, I want another whole round of entrepreneurs to come and take credit and turn credit into money.

1897
01:28:50,393 --> 01:28:56,493
And that's a big concept because what he's saying is, you know, this buck thing, who knows about this guy?

1898
01:28:56,572 --> 01:28:57,652
Maybe it's a scam, maybe it's not.

1899
01:28:57,833 --> 01:29:01,752
But it's just the first of many and you're going to see a giant free market.

1900
01:29:01,752 --> 01:29:05,072
Basically, you're going to see free banking on steroids here.

1901
01:29:05,993 --> 01:29:13,973
Anyone that can access that stretch credit can now go and create money.

1902
01:29:15,133 --> 01:29:17,712
And people will be able to compete with their own money, right?

1903
01:29:17,732 --> 01:29:18,752
It's going to be a free market, right?

1904
01:29:18,773 --> 01:29:22,633
So some people will say, hey, man, I'm getting paid 11% on P7.

1905
01:29:23,133 --> 01:29:24,553
Well, hey, Buck, that's cool.

1906
01:29:24,873 --> 01:29:25,792
I'm going to pay you eight.

1907
01:29:26,792 --> 01:29:28,413
And so free market's going to free market.

1908
01:29:29,152 --> 01:29:30,393
Margins will compress.

1909
01:29:30,393 --> 01:29:33,373
there will be different rates paid

1910
01:29:33,373 --> 01:29:35,433
based on different regulatory schemes

1911
01:29:35,433 --> 01:29:37,232
maybe Brazil lets you do it

1912
01:29:37,232 --> 01:29:38,572
the US doesn't

1913
01:29:38,572 --> 01:29:40,652
so there's going to be different rates

1914
01:29:40,652 --> 01:29:41,773
for where you are in the world

1915
01:29:41,773 --> 01:29:42,893
but anyways the point is

1916
01:29:42,893 --> 01:29:45,652
all of the sort of like neobanks

1917
01:29:45,652 --> 01:29:47,013
that are operating with Bitcoin and stuff

1918
01:29:47,013 --> 01:29:48,572
it's a very interesting thing to explore

1919
01:29:48,572 --> 01:29:51,313
is this an opportunity to offer

1920
01:29:51,313 --> 01:29:52,413
an instrument

1921
01:29:52,413 --> 01:29:54,072
ideally it wouldn't even interops

1922
01:29:54,072 --> 01:29:54,953
if you're whatever

1923
01:29:54,953 --> 01:29:56,013
through tapered assets

1924
01:29:56,013 --> 01:29:56,933
or whatever it is

1925
01:29:56,933 --> 01:29:59,192
Spark with the Bitcoin network

1926
01:29:59,192 --> 01:30:00,072
but to offer this

1927
01:30:00,072 --> 01:30:02,792
this stable coin that gives a yield.

1928
01:30:02,953 --> 01:30:04,433
And critically, unlike all the other ones,

1929
01:30:04,493 --> 01:30:06,033
you know exactly where the yield comes from.

1930
01:30:06,373 --> 01:30:07,712
You know exactly what the risk is.

1931
01:30:07,792 --> 01:30:09,013
I mean, there's different layers of risk

1932
01:30:09,013 --> 01:30:11,172
with the company and in MicroStrategy,

1933
01:30:11,292 --> 01:30:12,533
but like fundamentally the risk is,

1934
01:30:12,672 --> 01:30:14,313
does Bitcoin go up 20% counter or not?

1935
01:30:15,172 --> 01:30:15,273
Yep.

1936
01:30:16,013 --> 01:30:17,172
All right, can we get a,

1937
01:30:17,433 --> 01:30:18,473
it's going up forever, Laura?

1938
01:30:19,413 --> 01:30:20,953
No, I'm sorry.

1939
01:30:21,072 --> 01:30:23,953
All I can say is capital, credit.

1940
01:30:25,393 --> 01:30:27,493
And seriously, I mean that as a shout out.

1941
01:30:27,493 --> 01:30:28,333
Like, Sailor's a genius.

1942
01:30:28,913 --> 01:30:29,093
He is.

1943
01:30:29,152 --> 01:30:29,333
He's awesome.

1944
01:30:29,333 --> 01:30:30,292
he's a genius

1945
01:30:30,292 --> 01:30:32,033
alright

1946
01:30:32,033 --> 01:30:33,773
I think we're at it

1947
01:30:33,773 --> 01:30:34,553
shall we wrap?

1948
01:30:35,313 --> 01:30:35,833
let's wrap

1949
01:30:35,833 --> 01:30:36,493
it was a good show

1950
01:30:36,493 --> 01:30:37,172
yeah

1951
01:30:37,172 --> 01:30:38,393
fun to see you guys

1952
01:30:38,393 --> 01:30:38,752
yeah

1953
01:30:38,752 --> 01:30:39,773
more next week

1954
01:30:39,773 --> 01:30:40,093
good times