1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,580
Now we're live.

2
00:00:01,020 --> 00:00:01,220
All right.

3
00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:02,980
Welcome another week of PBJ.

4
00:00:03,220 --> 00:00:03,740
How are you guys?

5
00:00:04,060 --> 00:00:04,520
Good to see you guys.

6
00:00:04,580 --> 00:00:05,220
Yeah, it's good to see y'all.

7
00:00:05,380 --> 00:00:05,720
It's been a...

8
00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:06,240
We missed a week.

9
00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:06,780
We missed a week, yeah.

10
00:00:06,780 --> 00:00:08,980
We missed a week, and we kind of like never missed weeks, right?

11
00:00:08,980 --> 00:00:09,200
Never missed a week.

12
00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:10,200
So it was kind of a big deal.

13
00:00:10,540 --> 00:00:13,520
But you were traveling, and Max, you were traveling.

14
00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,840
So I was actually here, ready to do it, but you guys said...

15
00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,100
I was already at 9 p.m. Berlin time.

16
00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:19,940
I was not.

17
00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:22,540
I was in Santa Fe, but we'll talk about that.

18
00:00:22,620 --> 00:00:23,980
Well, we're back here.

19
00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:25,280
Steve was pointing at my orange phone.

20
00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,980
I already made a big deal of that two weeks ago, so...

21
00:00:27,980 --> 00:00:28,820
On the show?

22
00:00:28,900 --> 00:00:29,100
Yeah.

23
00:00:29,100 --> 00:00:31,220
I had an orange drink.

24
00:00:31,340 --> 00:00:31,880
I had orange everything.

25
00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:33,580
But now we've got our orange sign

26
00:00:33,580 --> 00:00:35,020
repaired and looking good

27
00:00:35,020 --> 00:00:35,720
right behind you there.

28
00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:37,580
Yeah, we didn't really talk about it

29
00:00:37,580 --> 00:00:40,000
being broken a couple weeks ago.

30
00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:40,620
Yeah, we did.

31
00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:41,220
I thought we did.

32
00:00:41,220 --> 00:00:41,760
Three weeks ago.

33
00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:42,340
Oh, did we?

34
00:00:42,380 --> 00:00:43,240
Dude, Steve, what's going on?

35
00:00:43,460 --> 00:00:43,660
Yeah.

36
00:00:44,620 --> 00:00:46,000
What happened on this trip, bro?

37
00:00:46,900 --> 00:00:47,820
We miss a week

38
00:00:47,820 --> 00:00:48,480
and I forget everything.

39
00:00:49,460 --> 00:00:49,640
Anyway.

40
00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:50,740
We were also just commenting

41
00:00:50,740 --> 00:00:51,660
like Steve's jacket,

42
00:00:51,740 --> 00:00:52,500
if it gets too hot.

43
00:00:52,780 --> 00:00:53,440
We've been told

44
00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:55,080
if enough Bitcoin

45
00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,440
are streaming our way,

46
00:00:57,620 --> 00:00:58,580
it may get ripped off.

47
00:00:58,580 --> 00:01:01,080
So it's one thing we're testing payments for.

48
00:01:01,260 --> 00:01:02,020
Bent on the comments.

49
00:01:02,340 --> 00:01:03,720
We're looking for audience comments.

50
00:01:03,860 --> 00:01:04,780
21,000 Bitcoin.

51
00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:05,420
Is that what we need?

52
00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:07,480
69,000?

53
00:01:09,340 --> 00:01:09,700
Maybe.

54
00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:10,800
All right.

55
00:01:11,300 --> 00:01:14,100
Let's keep it as if I get too hot, I'm going to take the jackpot.

56
00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:15,260
Start streaming the stats.

57
00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:15,700
Okay.

58
00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:20,540
So you got back from, you want to start just with Berlin?

59
00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:21,200
Can we do that?

60
00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:22,640
I know it's the third one in the.

61
00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:23,280
Start with Berlin.

62
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:23,960
Because I want to hear.

63
00:01:24,140 --> 00:01:25,400
We actually got started.

64
00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,100
Sorry, we took a mountain bike ride.

65
00:01:27,100 --> 00:01:28,780
and we got started talking about Berlin

66
00:01:28,780 --> 00:01:29,880
the other day.

67
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:30,400
Yeah.

68
00:01:30,460 --> 00:01:31,420
But let's loop back.

69
00:01:31,420 --> 00:01:32,240
Sorry, we talked about it

70
00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:33,220
almost the entire ride.

71
00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:33,460
Yeah.

72
00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:34,780
Much to your chagrin.

73
00:01:36,620 --> 00:01:37,660
You may be shocked.

74
00:01:37,740 --> 00:01:38,300
You hear this, Steve and I

75
00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:40,120
also chatted about Berlin.

76
00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:41,020
Oh, all right then.

77
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:42,560
But I want to hear the whole,

78
00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:43,660
I want to hear the juice of his bits.

79
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:44,060
Yeah.

80
00:01:45,340 --> 00:01:46,740
I'm sure he saved the best for you.

81
00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:48,180
I want to hear the last show we talked to.

82
00:01:48,220 --> 00:01:51,220
I was in New York in the last show.

83
00:01:51,300 --> 00:01:51,720
That's right.

84
00:01:51,900 --> 00:01:54,180
And we talked about the chain code event

85
00:01:54,180 --> 00:01:54,900
I went to.

86
00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:55,340
Yep.

87
00:01:55,340 --> 00:01:58,200
So that was just a pit stop to go to Berlin.

88
00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:00,220
I've never been to Berlin.

89
00:02:00,620 --> 00:02:00,820
Really?

90
00:02:01,100 --> 00:02:01,280
Yeah.

91
00:02:01,700 --> 00:02:02,380
First time in Berlin.

92
00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:03,820
I've been to Germany several times.

93
00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:04,720
Never been to Berlin, though.

94
00:02:04,740 --> 00:02:05,160
What did you think?

95
00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:05,720
Just in general.

96
00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:06,560
It was good.

97
00:02:06,740 --> 00:02:06,840
Yeah.

98
00:02:07,020 --> 00:02:08,260
Isn't it Oktoberfest right now?

99
00:02:08,260 --> 00:02:08,820
I liked it.

100
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:10,600
It is Oktoberfest right now.

101
00:02:10,820 --> 00:02:12,640
So I had a beer.

102
00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:13,800
A beer.

103
00:02:13,940 --> 00:02:15,160
Is that how they do Oktoberfest?

104
00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:15,920
They have a beer.

105
00:02:15,940 --> 00:02:18,960
Well, I ended up, I got sick along with almost everyone else there.

106
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:19,680
72 houses.

107
00:02:21,540 --> 00:02:22,440
Just a cold, though.

108
00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:23,340
Nothing crazy.

109
00:02:23,980 --> 00:02:24,980
Is everyone still spying?

110
00:02:24,980 --> 00:02:27,040
tattoos and like does it feel like

111
00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:28,180
Portland on steroids still

112
00:02:28,180 --> 00:02:28,880
um

113
00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,780
is that the Berlin vibe?

114
00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,940
yeah it's like East Berlin everyone's like

115
00:02:34,940 --> 00:02:36,340
cypherpond oh yeah okay

116
00:02:36,340 --> 00:02:38,880
yeah that vibe was

117
00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:40,660
present I thought you meant they were sending the

118
00:02:40,660 --> 00:02:42,940
reinforcements I think I already

119
00:02:42,940 --> 00:02:43,840
told DK this I forget

120
00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:44,740
cool

121
00:02:44,740 --> 00:02:47,420
too soon DK

122
00:02:47,420 --> 00:02:50,500
no in Portland

123
00:02:50,500 --> 00:02:51,800
in Portland I'm aware

124
00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,460
either way either way okay

125
00:02:53,460 --> 00:02:55,060
we don't want to talk about reality

126
00:02:55,060 --> 00:02:56,540
it's all fake news

127
00:02:56,540 --> 00:02:59,720
one thing I like to do when I travel is go for a run

128
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,640
and then like do my sightseeing

129
00:03:01,640 --> 00:03:02,740
by foot

130
00:03:02,740 --> 00:03:05,300
so a few of us went

131
00:03:05,300 --> 00:03:07,360
and ran at Temple Hoff Airport

132
00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:09,340
which I'd never heard of before and didn't know the history

133
00:03:09,340 --> 00:03:11,360
but it motivated me to learn the history

134
00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,980
first of all it was just a cool experience to run on an airfield

135
00:03:13,980 --> 00:03:15,720
have you ever

136
00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:16,840
run on a landing strip?

137
00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,440
but you have right out here

138
00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:20,820
oh right David pointed out

139
00:03:20,820 --> 00:03:23,020
Chrissy Field was a landing strip

140
00:03:23,020 --> 00:03:23,740
Oh, yeah.

141
00:03:23,860 --> 00:03:24,260
The airfield.

142
00:03:25,540 --> 00:03:26,700
We did a flint of sails.

143
00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,360
But this is a, it's a closed airport now,

144
00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,340
but it's like it turned into a public park.

145
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,580
So it's like a four-mile lap that we ran around,

146
00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:36,600
and then we actually ran on the landing strip.

147
00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:37,780
So that was cool.

148
00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,560
Super low fog, sunrise is a cool scene.

149
00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,980
But then it motivated me to learn about the history of this airport.

150
00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,120
And it was open in like 1923.

151
00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:49,220
It was a major airport.

152
00:03:49,540 --> 00:03:51,320
So it was early in a major airport.

153
00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,680
but I think the most notable history is in the

154
00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,540
after World War II, like in 1948-49

155
00:03:56,540 --> 00:03:58,940
you know, this airport's in

156
00:03:58,940 --> 00:04:01,680
West Berlin

157
00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,640
so it was a portion of the city that was controlled by the allies

158
00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,520
but it was landlocked

159
00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,680
to the, like Soviets controlled East Germany

160
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,100
and the Soviets blockaded

161
00:04:13,100 --> 00:04:15,700
in 1948 that region

162
00:04:15,700 --> 00:04:17,000
so no supplies could get in

163
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,980
so the allies then used this airfield to drop supplies

164
00:04:20,980 --> 00:04:22,640
and it's just astounding

165
00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,320
the level, the scale

166
00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:26,880
of what the operation was.

167
00:04:27,180 --> 00:04:29,640
They flew in,

168
00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:31,440
they had a flight every three minutes

169
00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,680
for one year and three months.

170
00:04:33,820 --> 00:04:34,780
Every three minutes?

171
00:04:35,540 --> 00:04:36,200
Every three minutes.

172
00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:36,540
Wow.

173
00:04:36,820 --> 00:04:38,000
250,000 flights.

174
00:04:38,300 --> 00:04:38,520
Wow.

175
00:04:38,620 --> 00:04:39,660
So it's like crazy.

176
00:04:39,940 --> 00:04:40,880
Dropping off supplies.

177
00:04:41,140 --> 00:04:42,000
Dropping off supplies.

178
00:04:42,220 --> 00:04:43,080
It's a crazy operation.

179
00:04:43,220 --> 00:04:44,620
Anyway, so it's cool to do that.

180
00:04:44,780 --> 00:04:46,160
Only the Germans could pull that off.

181
00:04:47,060 --> 00:04:48,840
Well, it wasn't the Germans.

182
00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:50,180
Yeah, never mind.

183
00:04:50,980 --> 00:04:51,560
with the Americans.

184
00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:54,300
So that was cool.

185
00:04:54,580 --> 00:04:55,160
But yeah,

186
00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:55,440
I mean,

187
00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:56,120
why did I go there?

188
00:04:57,140 --> 00:04:58,260
My own team,

189
00:04:58,420 --> 00:04:59,020
Spiral team,

190
00:04:59,340 --> 00:05:00,160
we have 15 people

191
00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:00,600
on our team.

192
00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:02,220
We're spread out

193
00:05:02,220 --> 00:05:03,220
all over the world.

194
00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:04,360
One person actually

195
00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:05,540
is in Berlin.

196
00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:06,020
Oh, nice.

197
00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:07,420
But we have folks

198
00:05:07,420 --> 00:05:08,080
in the Netherlands

199
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:09,040
and all over the US.

200
00:05:09,700 --> 00:05:10,880
So we get together

201
00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:11,220
in person

202
00:05:11,220 --> 00:05:11,940
a couple times a year.

203
00:05:12,180 --> 00:05:13,300
This was our

204
00:05:13,300 --> 00:05:14,700
second meetup

205
00:05:14,700 --> 00:05:16,480
of 2025.

206
00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:17,600
So we did

207
00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:18,820
a three-day retreat

208
00:05:18,820 --> 00:05:20,540
just like we like

209
00:05:20,540 --> 00:05:22,700
to be in person in our show in the city of Bitcoin.

210
00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,920
There's a few people here that are on my team,

211
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:28,180
but most of my team is not here.

212
00:05:28,420 --> 00:05:30,400
So it's great to get everyone in person.

213
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:32,260
We had a really good three-day retreat.

214
00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:39,020
And then after that was a three-day conference,

215
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,320
BTC++, which Nifty Nay organizes.

216
00:05:42,500 --> 00:05:44,440
And she's absolutely rocking it.

217
00:05:44,780 --> 00:05:45,640
She really is, yeah.

218
00:05:46,580 --> 00:05:48,900
I first met her, she was an engineer at Square

219
00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:50,020
working on Bitcoin.

220
00:05:50,020 --> 00:05:50,380
Oh, really?

221
00:05:50,540 --> 00:05:51,420
That's a long time ago.

222
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:51,620
Wow.

223
00:05:51,780 --> 00:05:52,600
Yeah, 2018.

224
00:05:52,940 --> 00:05:53,140
Yeah.

225
00:05:54,340 --> 00:05:55,580
And then she went to Blockstream,

226
00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:56,960
and she got Lightning Development Experience,

227
00:05:57,220 --> 00:05:58,460
and now she's off on her own

228
00:05:58,460 --> 00:06:00,820
and just, frankly, kicking ass.

229
00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:03,900
So I think they're doing like six events this year

230
00:06:03,900 --> 00:06:06,160
and have six or seven on tap for next year.

231
00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:11,360
And seeing the quality of this event,

232
00:06:11,420 --> 00:06:12,000
it's pretty impressive

233
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:13,540
that they're pulling off that many events.

234
00:06:13,860 --> 00:06:14,940
And all over the world, too.

235
00:06:15,140 --> 00:06:15,740
All over the world.

236
00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:16,960
Brazil, Mexico.

237
00:06:17,460 --> 00:06:19,000
I went to the very first BTC Plus.

238
00:06:19,140 --> 00:06:20,400
Were you there in Austin?

239
00:06:20,540 --> 00:06:21,240
You might have been there.

240
00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,260
That's where I met Anthony or Tony Giorgio

241
00:06:24,260 --> 00:06:24,920
and a bunch of other people.

242
00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:26,120
Like, that was really good.

243
00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:27,740
But from what I hear, I haven't gone to one since,

244
00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,040
but I hear they just keep getting better and better.

245
00:06:29,340 --> 00:06:32,580
Yep, and so each event she hosts has a theme.

246
00:06:32,700 --> 00:06:33,460
So this one was lightning.

247
00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:35,460
Interestingly, it's the first time

248
00:06:35,460 --> 00:06:37,800
she's done a lightning-themed event for BTC++

249
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,180
despite her having extensive knowledge on lightning

250
00:06:40,180 --> 00:06:41,860
and contributions to lightning.

251
00:06:43,340 --> 00:06:45,480
So I don't know how many people were there,

252
00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,100
maybe 150, but super high quality.

253
00:06:48,100 --> 00:06:52,040
mostly developers

254
00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:52,820
presentations

255
00:06:52,820 --> 00:06:54,880
but honestly

256
00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,880
when I go to conferences I almost never

257
00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,080
go or listen to the presentations I don't get a whole

258
00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:01,340
lot of value it's all about the people

259
00:07:01,340 --> 00:07:03,640
either meeting new people or

260
00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,040
people I've been working with for years but never met in person

261
00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:07,040
or whatever

262
00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,960
I actually found the

263
00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:11,960
presentations at this event

264
00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:13,820
high quality and interesting

265
00:07:13,820 --> 00:07:15,320
so that

266
00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:16,940
was notable but

267
00:07:16,940 --> 00:07:20,540
But like other events, the people were great.

268
00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:26,440
So there's a lot of folks from, a lot of Europeans there that I had not met before.

269
00:07:26,660 --> 00:07:28,260
So it's great to meet them.

270
00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:40,620
And it's definitely Lightning-centric, but there was like Cashew and Arc and developers of other systems there as well that are building on Lightning or using Lightning.

271
00:07:42,140 --> 00:07:45,760
Yeah, companies, open source developers, so just a great group of folks.

272
00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:47,740
most of Spiral stayed

273
00:07:47,740 --> 00:07:49,980
we sort of trickled off

274
00:07:49,980 --> 00:07:51,680
day by day but I stayed I did all

275
00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:52,920
three days

276
00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,840
some block engineers came as well so it was

277
00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:57,660
good for them to get that exposure

278
00:07:57,660 --> 00:07:59,580
to different devs

279
00:07:59,580 --> 00:08:01,860
but yeah I'd never met Callie before in person

280
00:08:01,860 --> 00:08:03,740
so it's great to meet you know we

281
00:08:03,740 --> 00:08:05,900
had a great conversation or two

282
00:08:05,900 --> 00:08:07,680
and

283
00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,420
yeah just

284
00:08:09,420 --> 00:08:11,620
many other devs so really good event

285
00:08:11,620 --> 00:08:13,560
I gave a presentation

286
00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,360
on Spark we've talked

287
00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,000
Where can we find that, by the way?

288
00:08:17,100 --> 00:08:18,240
It's on BTC Plus Plus?

289
00:08:18,260 --> 00:08:18,980
It's on YouTube.

290
00:08:20,300 --> 00:08:24,640
It's definitely available, like if you, like the six-hour video, it's, you know, timestamp.

291
00:08:24,820 --> 00:08:31,140
But I don't know if or when it'll be published as a standalone video, but I mean, that works.

292
00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:31,520
Yeah.

293
00:08:33,100 --> 00:08:39,440
But yeah, that's sort of, I'd say that presentation was a culmination of my study the past four-plus months on Spark.

294
00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,300
We talked about Spark on this show for like an hour or so before.

295
00:08:43,300 --> 00:08:44,280
More, an hour and a half.

296
00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:45,240
As long as not get into it.

297
00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:48,000
Wait, I think DK, he had one or two questions?

298
00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:48,780
Sorry, no.

299
00:08:49,220 --> 00:08:49,580
DK.

300
00:08:50,180 --> 00:08:50,960
42 questions.

301
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,000
I think it was maybe 45, 50.

302
00:08:53,180 --> 00:08:54,020
It was like AI.

303
00:08:54,260 --> 00:08:55,760
He sent AI slot my way.

304
00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:57,060
He DDoS'd you, bro.

305
00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:58,800
But actually, I used...

306
00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:00,160
I curated that hard.

307
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:01,700
There were so many more questions.

308
00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:03,560
Actually, I had...

309
00:09:03,560 --> 00:09:04,960
I generally had like a thousand questions.

310
00:09:05,100 --> 00:09:06,400
I was like, most of this is slot,

311
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,320
but I actually don't know the answers to these.

312
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:08,980
Oh, wow.

313
00:09:08,980 --> 00:09:09,580
I actually...

314
00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:11,320
We make fun of you, but...

315
00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,500
I used that.

316
00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:17,480
When I reviewed my presentation, I looked at your document twice to be like,

317
00:09:17,540 --> 00:09:20,820
okay, am I covering this? They were legitimate questions.

318
00:09:20,820 --> 00:09:22,480
That was the intention. That was the intention.

319
00:09:22,740 --> 00:09:25,380
That in the future, you probably want to talk to somebody about this.

320
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,440
I still don't understand these topics, so help us.

321
00:09:27,580 --> 00:09:30,100
Am I covering at least 30% of the 45 questions?

322
00:09:33,780 --> 00:09:39,860
I actually gave this presentation at a Lit Devs event here a couple weeks prior,

323
00:09:39,860 --> 00:09:43,340
just as a test, a dry run, and it took an hour.

324
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,240
Lots of audience engagement and questions, though.

325
00:09:45,740 --> 00:09:47,540
So it was good, but it took an hour,

326
00:09:47,700 --> 00:09:50,620
and I only had like half an hour at this event.

327
00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,540
So I improved the visuals of the presentation,

328
00:09:54,900 --> 00:09:56,280
just rehearsed it, cleaned up,

329
00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,260
and I think delivered it in like 25 minutes or something.

330
00:09:59,500 --> 00:09:59,860
So sweet.

331
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,600
It was, yeah, anyway, let's not talk too much about Spark.

332
00:10:02,660 --> 00:10:03,500
We've talked a lot about it.

333
00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,580
But I'd say it's like the culmination of my study

334
00:10:06,580 --> 00:10:08,260
the past four months, and I kept learning more,

335
00:10:08,260 --> 00:10:11,640
even up to the final days and weeks of that presentation.

336
00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,380
So if you're interested in learning more,

337
00:10:14,460 --> 00:10:15,360
go check out my presentation.

338
00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:21,100
But another really interesting conversation we had

339
00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:24,740
was with some developers working on ARK.

340
00:10:25,460 --> 00:10:29,620
And ARK, it's another protocol,

341
00:10:30,260 --> 00:10:31,760
like Bitcoin Payments Protocol,

342
00:10:33,060 --> 00:10:36,080
with a lot of overlap with Spark.

343
00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,640
They both use payment trees as like a fundamental building block.

344
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:42,000
ARK predates Spark.

345
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:50,280
So I don't know to what extent Spark was inspired by ARK, but ARK was proposed three years ago or so.

346
00:10:51,420 --> 00:10:52,320
And they rhyme.

347
00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:54,360
So Max, if you're ever going to rap about it.

348
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:54,980
Yeah, Spark.

349
00:10:55,900 --> 00:10:57,860
I'm not sure if that'll be brilliant.

350
00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,920
I think there's something around there, around NOAA maybe.

351
00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:01,200
Yeah.

352
00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:02,540
We'll see.

353
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,940
But with ARK, there's now two companies

354
00:11:05,940 --> 00:11:08,460
that have started to build ARK implementations.

355
00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:09,960
ARK Labs is one,

356
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:11,400
Second.Tech is the other.

357
00:11:13,100 --> 00:11:15,740
And I think they're going

358
00:11:15,740 --> 00:11:16,920
in a little bit different directions.

359
00:11:17,460 --> 00:11:18,860
My understanding of ARK Labs,

360
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:20,260
they created Arcade.

361
00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,200
It's more token platform,

362
00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,440
kind of similar to Spark's

363
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,180
business and product direction,

364
00:11:27,580 --> 00:11:28,300
it seems.

365
00:11:28,300 --> 00:11:32,380
whereas Second.Tech is focused on Bitcoin payments

366
00:11:32,380 --> 00:11:34,420
more exclusively, that's my understanding.

367
00:11:36,260 --> 00:11:38,600
Let's see, what's interesting about this?

368
00:11:38,740 --> 00:11:42,480
I think from Second.Tech, they've iterated

369
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,580
on like half a dozen different ARC designs

370
00:11:46,580 --> 00:11:49,780
over the past one to two years as they've been learning

371
00:11:49,780 --> 00:11:51,640
and they just keep improving the design.

372
00:11:52,980 --> 00:11:56,700
Their latest design is what has me most intrigued

373
00:11:56,700 --> 00:11:59,720
because from my position

374
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:00,660
and Spiral's position,

375
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,440
we've been working on lightning forever

376
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,060
and it's been,

377
00:12:05,300 --> 00:12:06,780
people have been building products

378
00:12:06,780 --> 00:12:08,840
based on LDK for years.

379
00:12:09,220 --> 00:12:10,220
Each time they do it,

380
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:11,400
they run into problems.

381
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:13,140
Then we fix those problems

382
00:12:13,140 --> 00:12:15,420
and then the next attempt gets better

383
00:12:15,420 --> 00:12:17,000
but then runs into new problems

384
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,860
and we keep whacking away at these problems.

385
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:20,880
So the good news is,

386
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,000
and I wrote down a list of like 20 different things.

387
00:12:24,380 --> 00:12:24,700
Not 45?

388
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:26,120
Yeah, sorry.

389
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:27,240
I didn't use AI.

390
00:12:27,460 --> 00:12:31,880
Actually, based on my experience working with people trying to build with LDK, wrote down

391
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,800
20 different things, problems they've encountered, and then we fixed them.

392
00:12:35,940 --> 00:12:36,520
So that's great.

393
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:42,140
So, and this is not an increasing list, it's a decreasing list, but there's still remaining

394
00:12:42,140 --> 00:12:42,780
problems.

395
00:12:44,140 --> 00:12:48,260
Some of which we were actively fixing and they'll get fixed as well, but there's some

396
00:12:48,260 --> 00:12:51,080
that are like fundamental challenges with Lightning.

397
00:12:51,340 --> 00:12:55,260
And anyone who's tried to build with Lightning has learned this.

398
00:12:55,260 --> 00:12:58,640
It's not great for onboarding in terms of scaling.

399
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,480
It doesn't handle low balance as well,

400
00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:05,320
and it doesn't scale to as many wallets

401
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:06,880
as we would hope in the future

402
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:12,880
because each user has to have at least one UTXO mined on chain.

403
00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:16,600
So your scaling is limited by the block size.

404
00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:17,860
Rough order, Magnitude.

405
00:13:18,060 --> 00:13:20,560
What is your latest thinking with Lightning as it is today?

406
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,320
I know there's the future possibilities with covenants

407
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:24,360
and channel factors and other things,

408
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,620
but today, what do you think is a reasonable number of wallets

409
00:13:28,620 --> 00:13:29,680
that can scale via Lightning?

410
00:13:30,180 --> 00:13:30,920
Like order back to you?

411
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:31,720
Just Lightning.

412
00:13:31,740 --> 00:13:32,280
Just Lightning alone?

413
00:13:34,420 --> 00:13:35,780
50 to 100 million.

414
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:36,200
Okay.

415
00:13:36,420 --> 00:13:36,940
Still pretty good.

416
00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:37,660
Yeah.

417
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:38,320
It's not every human.

418
00:13:38,420 --> 00:13:39,160
It's certainly not the AI.

419
00:13:39,260 --> 00:13:42,000
We're not even close to that limit.

420
00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:46,140
So that if there is sufficient demand,

421
00:13:46,420 --> 00:13:49,560
Lightning by itself can absolutely handle way more growth.

422
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:49,860
Yeah.

423
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:51,620
But then it does have this fundamental limit.

424
00:13:51,620 --> 00:13:53,200
no amount of like,

425
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:54,100
you know,

426
00:13:54,140 --> 00:13:55,680
it's not like a bug fix

427
00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:56,680
or something in LDK

428
00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:58,400
to extend that.

429
00:13:58,480 --> 00:13:59,620
You need a different protocol

430
00:13:59,620 --> 00:14:01,060
or some kind of protocol extension,

431
00:14:01,260 --> 00:14:02,020
which I'm going to get to

432
00:14:02,020 --> 00:14:02,880
in a minute.

433
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:05,680
But I think that

434
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:06,840
not handling low balances

435
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,400
is a big challenge as well,

436
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:11,280
especially,

437
00:14:11,540 --> 00:14:13,220
it depends on the use case.

438
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:14,320
You know,

439
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:14,740
if you have someone

440
00:14:14,740 --> 00:14:15,700
who already owns Bitcoin

441
00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:17,620
and they transfer in like 500 bucks

442
00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:18,480
into their Lightning wallet

443
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:19,480
and they go spend it,

444
00:14:19,860 --> 00:14:19,980
well,

445
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:21,580
that Lightning today

446
00:14:21,580 --> 00:14:23,340
Lightning Walls handled that perfectly fine.

447
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,300
Phoenix is great, Lexi is great, etc.

448
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,460
But we've talked about innovation where AI is doing payments

449
00:14:30,460 --> 00:14:35,500
or brand new applications facilitating micropayments

450
00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:38,840
with Primal and Domus' examples on Nostra.

451
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,780
And that's where you might get an influx of new users

452
00:14:41,780 --> 00:14:43,480
by the thousands and millions,

453
00:14:43,860 --> 00:14:46,280
and they only receive a tiny amount of Bitcoin.

454
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:47,780
That's their first exposure to Bitcoin.

455
00:14:47,780 --> 00:14:52,620
So if we want to see that grow, you have to handle low balances.

456
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,040
Anyway, so Lightning has some of these fundamental challenges.

457
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:05,580
What's exciting about Arc, similar to Spark, is that it scales really well for onboarding.

458
00:15:05,660 --> 00:15:10,600
It can scale to basically infinite wallets, and they can handle low balances.

459
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:12,160
That sounds great, right?

460
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:13,360
Why not just use Arc?

461
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:18,440
Well, one challenge with ARK is that it doesn't scale well for payment volume.

462
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:25,600
So as payment volume grows with ARK, it increases the liquidity requirements of the ASP or ARK service provider.

463
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:32,000
And in the best case, that would just be a centralizing force and there wouldn't be that many ASPs.

464
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,780
And in the worst cases, it wouldn't be feasible for very large players.

465
00:15:35,780 --> 00:15:39,260
and has ARC always been

466
00:15:39,260 --> 00:15:41,580
kind of effectively like an alternative

467
00:15:41,580 --> 00:15:43,420
or a competitor to Lightning

468
00:15:43,420 --> 00:15:45,580
it's kind of like a different approach or it's always been

469
00:15:45,580 --> 00:15:47,140
considered a little bit of like a

470
00:15:47,140 --> 00:15:48,460
augmentation or complement

471
00:15:48,460 --> 00:15:49,600
I see it as complement

472
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,460
both

473
00:15:51,460 --> 00:15:53,280
you know I think

474
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,220
you know some ARC proponents see it as a replacement

475
00:15:57,220 --> 00:15:59,060
to Lightning at least for

476
00:15:59,060 --> 00:16:00,980
at the end user

477
00:16:00,980 --> 00:16:01,800
device

478
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,360
like we I mean we've talked about in the show

479
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:18,840
So previously, actually, for people that watch my Spark presentation, there's a really good slide that shows the ecosystem with Lightning Network in the middle and all the Fediment and Cashew and Arc and Spark all connecting to Lightning Network.

480
00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:23,220
Lightning Network is a glue between all these systems is clearly a win.

481
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,820
And so Arc is complementary in that sense.

482
00:16:25,940 --> 00:16:35,180
But in terms of the end user experience, I think most Arc proponents see it as a competitor to Lightning, similar to Spark, similar to Cashew.

483
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,280
similar to Fedimit,

484
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:38,980
that lightning wouldn't be part of that

485
00:16:38,980 --> 00:16:40,180
end-user experience.

486
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:43,440
But so, sorry, and just

487
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,340
to be clear, and maybe you can explain this a bit better.

488
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,080
So, for a bit of context,

489
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:48,980
and we talked a bit about this, but I remember

490
00:16:48,980 --> 00:16:51,100
from like two years ago or whatever, I remember,

491
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,160
I don't know if this guy, Brock, is still around with it.

492
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:54,820
He was famous for breaking lightning,

493
00:16:54,820 --> 00:16:56,560
and then he dropped ARK, and

494
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,460
I remember when I read quickly,

495
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,060
my TLDR was, this is cool,

496
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,040
but the capital requirement is so high,

497
00:17:03,380 --> 00:17:05,040
it's just, okay, it's not that interesting to me.

498
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:05,700
and I forgot it.

499
00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:07,320
Are you saying,

500
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:08,220
when you think about this

501
00:17:08,220 --> 00:17:09,920
as being complimentary or competitive,

502
00:17:10,140 --> 00:17:10,720
I know you're going to talk about

503
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:11,400
the capital requirements,

504
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:12,140
how that's come down,

505
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:13,260
or it could come down,

506
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:15,740
but wouldn't anyone

507
00:17:15,740 --> 00:17:17,860
that's running an ARC service provider,

508
00:17:17,940 --> 00:17:19,120
maybe you can describe how this works,

509
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,520
also need to hook into an LSP

510
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:22,240
or that they're running that

511
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:23,800
or someone else as well?

512
00:17:23,860 --> 00:17:24,680
Or is there a world

513
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:25,340
where they could just do this

514
00:17:25,340 --> 00:17:26,320
with no Lightning at all?

515
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,120
The ARC lab's design

516
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:33,140
is not using Lightning.

517
00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:34,060
Okay, interesting.

518
00:17:34,060 --> 00:17:40,720
And the first five of the six designs that second.tech implemented didn't use Lightning.

519
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:41,300
Interesting.

520
00:17:41,540 --> 00:17:46,540
Again, when I say didn't use Lightning, I'm talking about at the end user client, not interoperability reasons.

521
00:17:46,820 --> 00:17:47,100
Got it.

522
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:59,120
So that's why I'm saying that I think most devs that are working on Arc, I mean, in their minds, it's a replacement for Lightning.

523
00:17:59,540 --> 00:18:00,060
Interesting.

524
00:18:00,060 --> 00:18:06,100
But yes, I too had the exact same concern about R2 plus years ago, the liquidity requirements.

525
00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:15,180
Yet I was fascinated by all the, I love the innovation, like a new take on how to address onboarding, scaling.

526
00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:27,080
And so what I'm really excited about now, so the context of Spiral, it very much cares about how do we scale Bitcoin payments to as many wallets and people as possible.

527
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:27,700
And bots.

528
00:18:28,380 --> 00:18:29,700
And that's what, yeah, wallets.

529
00:18:30,060 --> 00:18:31,880
whether it's a bot or a human,

530
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,740
but scaled to as many wallets as possible

531
00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:37,860
while preserving as many properties

532
00:18:37,860 --> 00:18:39,280
of on-chain Bitcoin as possible,

533
00:18:39,820 --> 00:18:41,780
low fees, instant, etc.

534
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,120
And Lightning checks many boxes,

535
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:46,600
but not all the boxes as we just highlighted.

536
00:18:47,220 --> 00:18:50,300
ARK checks most of the boxes that Lightning doesn't,

537
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:51,800
but then doesn't check other boxes, right?

538
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,240
So what I'm very excited about

539
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,500
is the last design that Second.tech has been considering

540
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:02,360
is to combine ARC and Lightning.

541
00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:05,100
And so within an ARC tree,

542
00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:07,000
at the leaves of the ARC tree,

543
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:08,280
instead of having coins there,

544
00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:09,780
you actually have a Lightning channel

545
00:19:09,780 --> 00:19:11,920
or like a payment channel at the leaf.

546
00:19:12,780 --> 00:19:14,960
And such a design gives you the benefits

547
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,300
of the onboarding scaling due to ARC

548
00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:18,660
and the payment trees

549
00:19:18,660 --> 00:19:21,620
and all the virtual UTXOs that it supports.

550
00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:25,280
But then it gives you the payment volume scaling

551
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:26,280
due to Lightning channels.

552
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:27,780
Every time payments are made,

553
00:19:27,780 --> 00:19:29,960
you're not requiring the ASP

554
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,320
to front more money during a period of time.

555
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,140
So it's a huge win for that.

556
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,260
And then interestingly,

557
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,580
there's LSP and Lightning wins here too

558
00:19:41,580 --> 00:19:43,840
because it'll be much cheaper

559
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,840
to sort of right-size the channel size.

560
00:19:47,220 --> 00:19:48,340
Like with regular Lightning,

561
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,820
if a user needs to change the capacity of their channel,

562
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:54,220
like they're trying to receive more money

563
00:19:54,220 --> 00:19:56,320
and they don't have enough inbound capacity,

564
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,780
well then you have to do at least one on-chain transaction.

565
00:20:00,460 --> 00:20:03,820
Historically more than one. With splicing it gets optimized down to one

566
00:20:03,820 --> 00:20:07,480
but it's still an on-chain transaction every time you want to optimize the channel size.

567
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,200
So that makes it really tough

568
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,180
on the LSP because

569
00:20:14,180 --> 00:20:19,360
the LSP will learn over time, oh these users aren't really

570
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:23,680
using the channel capacity that much. So it would prefer to shrink it

571
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,660
because it doesn't want to tie up its capital

572
00:20:26,660 --> 00:20:28,720
in channels that aren't being used, right?

573
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:31,760
So with adding Arc,

574
00:20:31,860 --> 00:20:33,460
you're able to right-size those channels

575
00:20:33,460 --> 00:20:35,720
using virtual UTXOs, not real UTXOs,

576
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,540
so it's much, much, much lower cost to do so.

577
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:44,020
So I think this marriage can be super compelling.

578
00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:45,840
So that's something that Spiral

579
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,080
is heavily studying right now,

580
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,180
and we're still learning.

581
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:52,780
Is it live or is it theoretical?

582
00:20:53,460 --> 00:20:54,660
Is there open source code?

583
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,220
It's theoretical, although another thing I learned,

584
00:20:56,380 --> 00:20:57,360
what's great about going to these events,

585
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,060
you just learn things you wouldn't otherwise learn.

586
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:03,860
Another developer already took LDK

587
00:21:03,860 --> 00:21:08,300
and combined it with ArcLabs Arc implementation

588
00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:12,420
to prototype exactly this.

589
00:21:12,420 --> 00:21:15,380
And what's interesting is it requires a feature

590
00:21:15,380 --> 00:21:20,540
that I don't think any Lightning implementation supports yet,

591
00:21:20,540 --> 00:21:22,580
with custom transactions.

592
00:21:22,980 --> 00:21:25,660
So Lightning has a specific script

593
00:21:25,660 --> 00:21:27,140
used for Lightning channels.

594
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:29,100
And in Lightning channels,

595
00:21:29,380 --> 00:21:30,380
or in Lightning implementations,

596
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,260
that's hard-coded to just that script.

597
00:21:33,540 --> 00:21:35,100
Or using it for Arc,

598
00:21:35,180 --> 00:21:36,340
you have to have a different script.

599
00:21:36,340 --> 00:21:39,100
So a feature that Leo,

600
00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:41,180
who works, he's on Spiral,

601
00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:42,020
and he's out of Bitcoin,

602
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,200
a feature he's been working on this year

603
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,300
is custom scripts and custom transactions

604
00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:49,360
in LDK so that a developer user of LDK

605
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:51,280
can customize the script used.

606
00:21:51,700 --> 00:21:51,800
Cool.

607
00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:53,640
And like Taproot Assets needs this.

608
00:21:53,740 --> 00:21:54,660
RGB needs this.

609
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,060
DLCs need this.

610
00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:58,460
There's lots of different use cases for this,

611
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,580
but another user of this would be Arc.

612
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,000
So he's made enough progress on this.

613
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:06,080
It's in a branch that's not merged yet,

614
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,440
but this other developer, Vincenzo,

615
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,120
took that branch, took LDK,

616
00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:11,260
took ArcLabs Arc,

617
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,260
built a proof of concept of this.

618
00:22:13,260 --> 00:22:15,700
So it's still early.

619
00:22:16,780 --> 00:22:17,480
Much has to be,

620
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:22,420
I see Fleet Week is now, we have live Fleet Week right outside.

621
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:24,140
Live Canadian Fleet Week.

622
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:26,880
That's the state of our world right now.

623
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,060
But yeah, so we still need to,

624
00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:34,260
there's still technical questions to answer,

625
00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:35,660
at least for myself.

626
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:37,140
We need to build it out.

627
00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:40,840
But regardless of whether Spiral does,

628
00:22:41,140 --> 00:22:43,660
it's my understanding Second.Tech is going to build this out.

629
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,160
I'm going to make a note of that, Second.Tech.

630
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:45,800
Yeah.

631
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,220
Yeah, Stephen Roos is the founder.

632
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:50,400
He came from Blockstream, long-time Bitcoin developer.

633
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,540
By the way, I know this one we talk about

634
00:22:52,540 --> 00:22:54,940
in the old days of Monster News and a lot on this show as well,

635
00:22:55,020 --> 00:22:58,880
is how badass that this is the power of open source.

636
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:02,960
You're behind LDK, and you didn't even know

637
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,920
that people were building new stuff with it.

638
00:23:05,340 --> 00:23:07,380
That's what's so cool, when you just give away the code

639
00:23:07,380 --> 00:23:08,860
or just give away the ideas, man.

640
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,400
Yeah, it's great.

641
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:36,274
So TLDR I like pretty I think this is pretty compelling as a long solution that checks most boxes that we want for Bitcoin Payments Protocol And once Spiral finishes its homework we could very well become contributors to that code base as well and collaborate with SecondDocTech and hopefully other open source developers

642
00:23:36,274 --> 00:23:51,094
And are most of the people who've been working on ARK for a long time generally warmed to this idea of kind of like the combination of these two technologies? Or are there people who say like, we want to take ARK in a very different direction or keep kind of isolated from light?

643
00:23:51,094 --> 00:23:53,294
Well, second attack is, it's a small team.

644
00:23:53,554 --> 00:23:54,494
So, I mean, I think they're pretty,

645
00:23:56,034 --> 00:23:57,794
I mean, they're the ones pushing this.

646
00:23:57,874 --> 00:23:59,214
So they're clearly on board with it.

647
00:23:59,274 --> 00:24:01,134
And I think that's sort of end of story.

648
00:24:01,634 --> 00:24:03,734
Like the rest of the world doesn't know.

649
00:24:04,034 --> 00:24:05,634
They'll learn on this show.

650
00:24:06,354 --> 00:24:10,494
Arc Labs, I'm not sure what their view on it is.

651
00:24:10,734 --> 00:24:12,654
It might matter less to them

652
00:24:12,654 --> 00:24:14,774
because of the product direction they're going.

653
00:24:15,914 --> 00:24:17,294
But I don't know who instigated

654
00:24:17,294 --> 00:24:18,514
that proof of concept I mentioned.

655
00:24:18,894 --> 00:24:20,094
It might have been Arc Labs as well.

656
00:24:20,094 --> 00:24:22,974
so I'm not sure what their view on it is.

657
00:24:23,354 --> 00:24:24,774
But I mean,

658
00:24:25,594 --> 00:24:27,734
Arc's still a relatively small development community.

659
00:24:28,194 --> 00:24:29,774
So I think the reality is

660
00:24:29,774 --> 00:24:31,674
there's like eight people that know about this.

661
00:24:31,974 --> 00:24:32,154
Got it.

662
00:24:32,474 --> 00:24:32,574
Okay.

663
00:24:32,854 --> 00:24:33,494
Alpha League, baby.

664
00:24:33,714 --> 00:24:33,994
Let's go.

665
00:24:35,594 --> 00:24:36,134
It's cool.

666
00:24:36,874 --> 00:24:37,574
So yeah, I don't know.

667
00:24:37,654 --> 00:24:38,574
Any other questions about Berlin?

668
00:24:38,754 --> 00:24:41,174
It was overall a fantastic experience.

669
00:24:41,454 --> 00:24:43,054
Yes, the Arc stuff is super interesting to me.

670
00:24:43,154 --> 00:24:44,194
I clearly have to do my own work

671
00:24:44,194 --> 00:24:46,034
because I just kind of have ignored it for a while

672
00:24:46,034 --> 00:24:46,554
so that's cool.

673
00:24:48,174 --> 00:24:49,834
What was your general,

674
00:24:49,834 --> 00:24:51,754
actually two questions. One, what was your general takeaway

675
00:24:51,754 --> 00:24:53,834
on just the state of lightning right now? Because I think

676
00:24:53,834 --> 00:24:55,994
one thing that I'll

677
00:24:55,994 --> 00:24:57,814
get into is I have obviously on my own fun

678
00:24:57,814 --> 00:24:58,614
side, I've had

679
00:24:58,614 --> 00:25:01,594
a lot of chats with my LPs and a lot of stuff

680
00:25:01,594 --> 00:25:03,814
and the question I'm getting is like

681
00:25:03,814 --> 00:25:05,874
okay, lightning is awesome. When are people going to actually

682
00:25:05,874 --> 00:25:07,594
be using this thing? So I'm curious.

683
00:25:07,894 --> 00:25:09,754
What is your general... I mean, yes, the answer is

684
00:25:09,754 --> 00:25:11,874
probably we need one of these last mile solutions

685
00:25:11,874 --> 00:25:13,774
whether it's ARC or Spark or Cachy, which is my

686
00:25:13,774 --> 00:25:15,854
other question. But what

687
00:25:15,854 --> 00:25:17,954
is your general thought on the state of lightning today? If you

688
00:25:17,954 --> 00:25:19,374
were talking to someone who says, hey,

689
00:25:19,374 --> 00:25:20,834
you know, I've been super excited about lightning.

690
00:25:20,934 --> 00:25:22,634
I read the white paper in 2017 or 18,

691
00:25:22,734 --> 00:25:23,394
whenever that dropped.

692
00:25:23,794 --> 00:25:26,014
Like, when does this thing go mainstream?

693
00:25:26,734 --> 00:25:27,634
How would you answer that?

694
00:25:28,354 --> 00:25:29,694
Well, first, you made a comment.

695
00:25:29,794 --> 00:25:30,874
Someone asked you, like,

696
00:25:31,054 --> 00:25:32,214
when's someone going to use it?

697
00:25:32,274 --> 00:25:35,014
But it's really the only thing being even used.

698
00:25:36,034 --> 00:25:38,314
So people get excited about Cashew,

699
00:25:38,514 --> 00:25:39,714
Fetiment, ArcSpark,

700
00:25:39,814 --> 00:25:41,454
but like there's no usage on those yet.

701
00:25:41,794 --> 00:25:43,714
I see that for someone coming from stable coin land.

702
00:25:44,294 --> 00:25:44,894
Okay, yeah.

703
00:25:45,154 --> 00:25:46,434
Well, Bitcoin payments,

704
00:25:46,554 --> 00:25:47,394
from that perspective,

705
00:25:47,394 --> 00:25:48,834
Bitcoin payments aren't used.

706
00:25:48,834 --> 00:25:49,394
aren't there yet.

707
00:25:49,734 --> 00:25:50,234
I mean,

708
00:25:50,274 --> 00:25:51,054
we talk about this

709
00:25:51,054 --> 00:25:51,434
on the show

710
00:25:51,434 --> 00:25:52,174
almost every time.

711
00:25:52,474 --> 00:25:52,754
So,

712
00:25:52,834 --> 00:25:53,454
there's no,

713
00:25:53,574 --> 00:25:55,974
there's no information

714
00:25:55,974 --> 00:25:56,514
in this event

715
00:25:56,514 --> 00:25:57,234
that there's no

716
00:25:57,234 --> 00:25:57,814
aha moment

717
00:25:57,814 --> 00:25:58,254
that like,

718
00:25:58,394 --> 00:25:58,614
oh,

719
00:25:59,134 --> 00:25:59,994
it's just around the,

720
00:26:00,094 --> 00:26:01,114
this is going to happen.

721
00:26:01,254 --> 00:26:01,454
Right.

722
00:26:01,554 --> 00:26:02,114
And then all of a sudden

723
00:26:02,114 --> 00:26:02,594
Bitcoin payments

724
00:26:02,594 --> 00:26:02,994
are bigger than

725
00:26:02,994 --> 00:26:03,634
stable coin payments.

726
00:26:03,774 --> 00:26:04,854
There's no discussion

727
00:26:04,854 --> 00:26:05,354
about that.

728
00:26:05,494 --> 00:26:07,014
No aha moment.

729
00:26:08,574 --> 00:26:09,654
So that remains

730
00:26:09,654 --> 00:26:10,494
to be seen.

731
00:26:10,654 --> 00:26:10,774
Yeah.

732
00:26:12,334 --> 00:26:13,154
But within

733
00:26:13,154 --> 00:26:14,454
the volume

734
00:26:14,454 --> 00:26:15,054
that we do have

735
00:26:15,054 --> 00:26:15,714
for Bitcoin payments,

736
00:26:15,854 --> 00:26:16,934
lightning is

737
00:26:16,934 --> 00:26:18,434
most of it.

738
00:26:18,834 --> 00:26:27,194
And so, you know, there's definitely, I mean, there's been a growing sentiment over the years that lightning has failed or dead.

739
00:26:28,734 --> 00:26:32,314
You know, we've talked about that on the show as well, but, you know, it depends on your perspective.

740
00:26:32,314 --> 00:26:45,974
If you thought that lightning was going to be the silver bullet and 8 billion users having a mobile phone, mobile on the phone and AI all using only lightning, well, then you didn't understand the block size.

741
00:26:45,974 --> 00:26:47,514
but you know

742
00:26:47,514 --> 00:26:47,914
we've learned

743
00:26:47,914 --> 00:26:48,734
other things

744
00:26:48,734 --> 00:26:49,894
as well

745
00:26:49,894 --> 00:26:50,974
around user experience

746
00:26:50,974 --> 00:26:51,634
so it's

747
00:26:51,634 --> 00:26:52,134
you know

748
00:26:52,134 --> 00:26:53,234
it's not succeeded

749
00:26:53,234 --> 00:26:53,674
at that

750
00:26:53,674 --> 00:26:54,374
but it's clearly

751
00:26:54,374 --> 00:26:55,574
succeeded at

752
00:26:55,574 --> 00:26:56,374
the glue piece

753
00:26:56,374 --> 00:26:56,954
the glue piece

754
00:26:56,954 --> 00:26:57,834
and well

755
00:26:57,834 --> 00:26:58,474
what are we going to talk

756
00:26:58,474 --> 00:26:58,954
about on the show

757
00:26:58,954 --> 00:26:59,554
next

758
00:26:59,554 --> 00:27:00,554
Square

759
00:27:00,554 --> 00:27:02,134
launching Bitcoin payment

760
00:27:02,134 --> 00:27:03,414
it's not using

761
00:27:03,414 --> 00:27:04,374
ARK or Cashew

762
00:27:04,374 --> 00:27:04,774
or Fetamin

763
00:27:04,774 --> 00:27:05,714
it's using Lightning

764
00:27:05,714 --> 00:27:06,914
so before we jump to that

765
00:27:06,914 --> 00:27:07,474
I definitely want to spend

766
00:27:07,474 --> 00:27:07,774
a lot of time

767
00:27:07,774 --> 00:27:08,574
on the Square payment thing

768
00:27:08,574 --> 00:27:09,574
my other question

769
00:27:09,574 --> 00:27:09,994
on Berlin

770
00:27:09,994 --> 00:27:10,854
you said you got to chat

771
00:27:10,854 --> 00:27:11,214
with Callie

772
00:27:11,214 --> 00:27:11,834
so by the way

773
00:27:11,834 --> 00:27:12,754
the talks are most excited

774
00:27:12,754 --> 00:27:13,494
I definitely want to find

775
00:27:13,494 --> 00:27:13,934
your talk

776
00:27:13,934 --> 00:27:14,954
I want to find Callie's talks

777
00:27:14,954 --> 00:27:15,634
all of his are always

778
00:27:15,634 --> 00:27:16,974
badass and Alan's talk.

779
00:27:17,334 --> 00:27:19,454
Because I know Alan has kind of been going more and more

780
00:27:19,454 --> 00:27:20,634
towards Cashew as well.

781
00:27:21,274 --> 00:27:23,154
Any new, I don't know,

782
00:27:23,534 --> 00:27:25,574
thoughts, takeaways on Cashew? I know you still have

783
00:27:25,574 --> 00:27:26,974
your same question, who's going to run the meds?

784
00:27:27,214 --> 00:27:29,174
But any updated thinking on that?

785
00:27:29,574 --> 00:27:31,514
Well, there's definitely enthusiasm at

786
00:27:31,514 --> 00:27:33,354
the Berlin event around Cashew.

787
00:27:33,694 --> 00:27:35,254
There's a hackathon and about

788
00:27:35,254 --> 00:27:37,614
something like half the projects were Cashew

789
00:27:37,614 --> 00:27:38,994
based. It's definitely like,

790
00:27:39,234 --> 00:27:40,934
it's so much simpler that

791
00:27:40,934 --> 00:27:43,554
it's easy to build and hack with it.

792
00:27:43,754 --> 00:27:44,174
So I think

793
00:27:44,174 --> 00:27:47,154
so that was one data point

794
00:27:47,154 --> 00:27:48,574
yeah Callie's presentation

795
00:27:48,574 --> 00:27:50,454
it was pretty

796
00:27:50,454 --> 00:27:51,154
I don't know if you'd

797
00:27:51,154 --> 00:27:52,474
it was a good presentation by him

798
00:27:52,474 --> 00:27:53,454
but I don't know if you'd learn much

799
00:27:53,454 --> 00:27:53,634
I mean

800
00:27:53,634 --> 00:27:55,714
he went over a lot of like

801
00:27:55,714 --> 00:27:57,374
basics of Cashew

802
00:27:57,374 --> 00:27:59,194
but there were some good call outs by him

803
00:27:59,194 --> 00:28:00,894
on where people could help

804
00:28:00,894 --> 00:28:02,354
the Cashew ecosystem

805
00:28:02,354 --> 00:28:03,674
so still worth watching

806
00:28:03,674 --> 00:28:06,554
I missed Alan's talk in person

807
00:28:06,554 --> 00:28:07,754
but it looks really good

808
00:28:07,754 --> 00:28:08,054
yeah

809
00:28:08,054 --> 00:28:09,374
visit Alan Farrington

810
00:28:09,374 --> 00:28:09,634
yeah

811
00:28:09,634 --> 00:28:11,194
Alan's fucking smart

812
00:28:11,194 --> 00:28:11,394
I mean

813
00:28:11,394 --> 00:28:12,654
I think it walks through

814
00:28:12,654 --> 00:28:13,874
like how the fiat system works

815
00:28:13,874 --> 00:28:16,554
and basically teaches people how convoluted it is.

816
00:28:16,634 --> 00:28:19,314
And I'm sure I'll learn more about it.

817
00:28:19,874 --> 00:28:22,314
So I do have that queued up, but I didn't see it.

818
00:28:23,094 --> 00:28:24,314
But yeah, I'd say that,

819
00:28:24,314 --> 00:28:28,254
what was the vibe like for Lightning at the Lightning event?

820
00:28:29,634 --> 00:28:36,474
I mean, I think everyone sees Lightning's success as the glue.

821
00:28:37,674 --> 00:28:42,034
There's less discussion about it being the end-user solution.

822
00:28:43,874 --> 00:28:46,234
But, yeah, cool.

823
00:28:46,234 --> 00:28:48,734
That was the vibe.

824
00:28:49,494 --> 00:28:49,614
Cool.

825
00:28:50,114 --> 00:28:53,874
From Lightning Payments, you said that Lightning is kind of the way payments work.

826
00:28:54,014 --> 00:28:55,674
Is there any way that we can triangulate?

827
00:28:55,774 --> 00:29:00,614
I know one of the benefits of Lightning is that it's kind of privacy-preserving or enhancing

828
00:29:00,614 --> 00:29:03,774
compared to traditional kind of on-chain payments.

829
00:29:04,034 --> 00:29:10,514
But is there anything we can know about the payments, like payment sizes or volumes or

830
00:29:10,514 --> 00:29:15,774
anything that might give us an intuition around how Lightning is being used? Like, is it used

831
00:29:15,774 --> 00:29:20,934
for traditional type of payment use cases as an alternative to credit cards? Or is it used for

832
00:29:20,934 --> 00:29:25,694
newly emergent use cases that maybe don't have any other way to do it?

833
00:29:26,894 --> 00:29:33,034
Well, as you suggest, because it's private, that data is not publicly available. And we've talked

834
00:29:33,034 --> 00:29:37,714
about this before in the show quite a while ago about how the public metrics that are available

835
00:29:37,714 --> 00:29:40,134
are super misleading.

836
00:29:40,514 --> 00:29:40,654
Yeah.

837
00:29:41,174 --> 00:29:42,934
Like the amount of Bitcoin

838
00:29:42,934 --> 00:29:45,954
locked into public channels

839
00:29:45,954 --> 00:29:49,474
has been pretty flat for three straight years.

840
00:29:49,574 --> 00:29:50,214
Or even gone down.

841
00:29:50,394 --> 00:29:51,294
Or even gone down.

842
00:29:51,394 --> 00:29:54,574
And yet we know that the monthly growth

843
00:29:54,574 --> 00:29:57,554
is like around 15% per month of payment volume.

844
00:29:57,774 --> 00:29:59,794
So it's just not, it doesn't help.

845
00:30:00,394 --> 00:30:01,514
And I say we know that,

846
00:30:01,594 --> 00:30:03,494
meaning like through private data sources.

847
00:30:04,814 --> 00:30:06,914
And by the way, I think it's just worth mentioning

848
00:30:06,914 --> 00:30:08,834
because we talked about this like a year ago at this point.

849
00:30:08,934 --> 00:30:10,414
So for those who have not listened

850
00:30:10,414 --> 00:30:11,754
to every single episode of PBJ,

851
00:30:12,474 --> 00:30:13,334
what are you doing with your lives?

852
00:30:14,834 --> 00:30:17,774
But just in case there's one person that hasn't,

853
00:30:18,534 --> 00:30:19,834
what we talked about last time,

854
00:30:19,914 --> 00:30:21,734
the challenge, and this has been a challenge.

855
00:30:21,854 --> 00:30:24,094
I mean, I've been investing in Lightning Network stuff forever.

856
00:30:24,834 --> 00:30:26,234
So have you, working on this stuff.

857
00:30:26,954 --> 00:30:29,374
And the challenge has always been,

858
00:30:29,534 --> 00:30:31,574
especially when you, to your point, DK,

859
00:30:31,654 --> 00:30:32,934
when you talk to people that are either

860
00:30:32,934 --> 00:30:35,454
in traditional payments or more in the crypto world,

861
00:30:35,454 --> 00:30:42,914
they'll say, oh, I see Uniswap has total value locked of whatever, a billion dollars.

862
00:30:43,454 --> 00:30:48,394
And I see in Lightning, it's been, whatever, 5,000 Bitcoin forever, Big B Bitcoin.

863
00:30:49,114 --> 00:30:52,234
And they're like, that's interesting, but it's not that much.

864
00:30:52,654 --> 00:30:58,274
And so the point that when I first wrote my thesis on Lightning, hell, in 2018 or 2019,

865
00:30:58,274 --> 00:31:03,994
or no, maybe 2020 before I even had my own fund, the point I always try to make to people

866
00:31:03,994 --> 00:31:05,574
is it's extremely capital efficient

867
00:31:05,574 --> 00:31:07,854
because it's Tor, effectively.

868
00:31:08,014 --> 00:31:09,754
It's an onion-routed network on top of Bitcoin

869
00:31:09,754 --> 00:31:12,034
where you can't know the volume in there.

870
00:31:12,314 --> 00:31:13,274
And it's extremely capital efficient

871
00:31:13,274 --> 00:31:14,994
because you can move in this peer-to-peer network

872
00:31:14,994 --> 00:31:16,274
back and forth at the speed of light.

873
00:31:16,654 --> 00:31:17,774
The challenge with that is like,

874
00:31:17,854 --> 00:31:19,774
okay, so we've got 5,000 Bitcoin locked in there.

875
00:31:20,454 --> 00:31:23,594
Like, that tells us basically nothing on payment volume.

876
00:31:23,954 --> 00:31:25,314
Like, it could be $100 million,

877
00:31:25,574 --> 00:31:26,174
it could be a billion dollars.

878
00:31:26,294 --> 00:31:27,474
We have no idea.

879
00:31:28,094 --> 00:31:29,674
And the only kind of like,

880
00:31:29,734 --> 00:31:31,114
since we've gotten on this, to your point,

881
00:31:31,134 --> 00:31:31,814
is private data.

882
00:31:31,814 --> 00:31:33,574
River published an excellent report

883
00:31:33,574 --> 00:31:35,234
But that's been like three years ago now.

884
00:31:35,614 --> 00:31:38,454
And so River was saying it grew 2,112%

885
00:31:38,454 --> 00:31:39,854
or something like that in two years,

886
00:31:39,954 --> 00:31:41,574
or maybe it was 21, 21%.

887
00:31:41,574 --> 00:31:42,414
I don't know.

888
00:31:42,674 --> 00:31:43,214
I don't know.

889
00:31:43,914 --> 00:31:44,334
It was a lot.

890
00:31:44,634 --> 00:31:45,194
It was a lot.

891
00:31:45,334 --> 00:31:46,614
It was like 15% per month.

892
00:31:46,754 --> 00:31:47,834
And then through other data sources,

893
00:31:47,834 --> 00:31:49,394
since then I know that it's continued

894
00:31:49,394 --> 00:31:51,574
growing at that rate.

895
00:31:51,794 --> 00:31:54,254
So a very healthy, very healthy growth rate.

896
00:31:54,794 --> 00:31:56,034
I mean, to answer your question, David,

897
00:31:56,534 --> 00:31:59,454
there's not like super good insights

898
00:31:59,454 --> 00:32:01,774
as to what types of payments are being made.

899
00:32:01,774 --> 00:32:10,974
But I think there's a fair amount that are gambling sites and there's a fair amount that's people wanting to access stable coins.

900
00:32:11,674 --> 00:32:20,274
So they might buy Bitcoin on an exchange and then transfer it somewhere else and then get Tether and then use Tether.

901
00:32:20,954 --> 00:32:23,214
Can we guess at the transaction size?

902
00:32:23,434 --> 00:32:29,194
It sounds like for those use cases, they're kind of traditional types of payment use cases that just want more privacy maybe.

903
00:32:30,094 --> 00:32:31,294
So would they be like traditional,

904
00:32:31,434 --> 00:32:33,354
like it'd be like a $20 transaction,

905
00:32:33,474 --> 00:32:34,314
a $40 transaction,

906
00:32:34,434 --> 00:32:35,994
not like a sub $1 transaction?

907
00:32:36,474 --> 00:32:37,494
Yeah, I don't know offhand.

908
00:32:37,814 --> 00:32:38,054
Okay.

909
00:32:38,254 --> 00:32:38,714
That's a good question.

910
00:32:38,974 --> 00:32:40,654
I mean, I'll just put the call out there again.

911
00:32:41,434 --> 00:32:42,974
It would be sick if we had some website

912
00:32:42,974 --> 00:32:44,294
that tried to guess these.

913
00:32:44,414 --> 00:32:45,974
I know that it's like very difficult to do that,

914
00:32:46,054 --> 00:32:47,774
but like I do think that would change

915
00:32:47,774 --> 00:32:49,714
the questions you're asking.

916
00:32:49,834 --> 00:32:51,394
I think almost every normal investor

917
00:32:51,394 --> 00:32:52,954
or crypto person still has.

918
00:32:53,834 --> 00:32:55,294
I don't know what the answer to that is,

919
00:32:55,294 --> 00:32:56,874
but if you are listening to this

920
00:32:56,874 --> 00:32:57,494
and you have ideas.

921
00:32:57,494 --> 00:33:02,074
Well, Spiral's doing our best to make that not possible by improving privacy.

922
00:33:02,174 --> 00:33:02,734
Which is great.

923
00:33:02,734 --> 00:33:18,434
But having said that, I think what will help investors and others, and just frankly, just mainstream people, feel like this Bitcoin is being used is if they just start seeing it show up on websites or in person.

924
00:33:18,794 --> 00:33:19,794
And where might that happen?

925
00:33:19,794 --> 00:33:30,894
So, you know, Square just released both Bitcoin conversions and Bitcoin acceptance in Square payment terminals.

926
00:33:30,894 --> 00:33:41,214
So I think, and there'll be like, you know, like the sticker, the decals that merchants show like Visa and Cash App and Apple Pay and stuff like that.

927
00:33:41,414 --> 00:33:42,654
Oh, cool. Like a Bitcoin sticker.

928
00:33:42,674 --> 00:33:43,834
There'll be like a Bitcoin sticker, right?

929
00:33:43,834 --> 00:33:50,174
So I think the power of that is, regardless of how many people are actually doing Bitcoin payments.

930
00:33:50,494 --> 00:33:51,214
It normalizes it.

931
00:33:51,214 --> 00:33:52,214
It normalizes it, yeah.

932
00:33:52,394 --> 00:34:00,914
Because you go to your local store, you go to a store or whatever, and then you see the Bitcoin symbol, it's like, oh, it must, I'm not using it, but it must be being used because it shows the sticker there.

933
00:34:00,954 --> 00:34:02,414
People must be using Bitcoin.

934
00:34:02,414 --> 00:34:13,054
So I think that will help change perception, just almost independent of reality, and it could actually be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

935
00:34:13,434 --> 00:34:13,734
I like it.

936
00:34:13,834 --> 00:34:19,774
Um, so that's one, one angle, but, uh, but yeah, Square had a big, big event this week.

937
00:34:20,054 --> 00:34:24,234
Um, I think they're doing this like every six months now where just to demonstrate to the

938
00:34:24,234 --> 00:34:26,774
world that like Squares, they're shipping, it's impressive.

939
00:34:26,774 --> 00:34:27,794
Square's shipping, right?

940
00:34:27,994 --> 00:34:33,814
Um, and maybe after a few years of not shipping or not at the velocity desired.

941
00:34:34,034 --> 00:34:38,014
And I think that's, uh, that the Square is changing that, which is great.

942
00:34:38,094 --> 00:34:38,294
It's cool.

943
00:34:38,374 --> 00:34:40,534
Including Bitcoin, um, stuff I care about.

944
00:34:40,534 --> 00:35:09,194
So conversions is a feature that's been available to a select number of merchants for quite a while now. It just simply allows the merchant to take a percentage of their sales and put it in Bitcoin. Percentage of any sales. So most of their sales, or obviously, historically, all their sales have been in fiat. And if they just want to tuck away 1% or 10% or whatever into Bitcoin, they just like select, dial it in on their UI and then they're a treasury company, right?

945
00:35:09,194 --> 00:35:10,734
I like that.

946
00:35:11,374 --> 00:35:17,334
And so that's available now, GA available to all merchants, which is really cool.

947
00:35:17,994 --> 00:35:21,174
That seems like a super pragmatic step for a seller, right?

948
00:35:21,254 --> 00:35:26,034
Like if a seller's been orange-pilled or interested in using Bitcoin as a savings vehicle,

949
00:35:26,254 --> 00:35:32,414
it's a dead simple UI that they can use to achieve that.

950
00:35:33,054 --> 00:35:36,494
And then the other big feature is that they'll squirrel accept Bitcoin,

951
00:35:36,494 --> 00:35:43,594
and that'll become available 100% on November 10th.

952
00:35:44,054 --> 00:35:44,934
For everyone?

953
00:35:45,594 --> 00:35:47,534
It will be available for everyone.

954
00:35:47,594 --> 00:35:47,834
Wow.

955
00:35:48,074 --> 00:35:50,374
Meaning any merchant can enable their terminal.

956
00:35:50,374 --> 00:35:52,694
The merchant has to opt in.

957
00:35:53,914 --> 00:35:55,654
And I saw in the announcement, I don't know the details,

958
00:35:55,794 --> 00:35:57,994
but it looks like no processing fees for a year.

959
00:35:58,154 --> 00:35:58,574
Is that true?

960
00:35:59,154 --> 00:36:02,494
Yeah, for over a year, because through the end of 2026.

961
00:36:03,034 --> 00:36:04,134
That's a pretty big deal.

962
00:36:04,134 --> 00:36:05,954
It's pretty compelling, right?

963
00:36:05,954 --> 00:36:07,654
Pretty shocking, actually. That's awesome.

964
00:36:08,194 --> 00:36:10,874
Well, I mean, let's kickstart adoption, right?

965
00:36:10,874 --> 00:36:12,914
Let's give merchants reasons to use it

966
00:36:12,914 --> 00:36:15,714
and merchants reasons to promote it to consumers

967
00:36:15,714 --> 00:36:17,754
to kickstart that cycle.

968
00:36:18,094 --> 00:36:20,574
So one thing I'm excited about is here in the Presidio,

969
00:36:21,974 --> 00:36:24,494
Alex and Haley and I have been chatting about

970
00:36:24,494 --> 00:36:28,834
how can we get Presidio merchants to start accepting Bitcoin.

971
00:36:29,414 --> 00:36:30,474
Oh, that's awesome. The food trucks.

972
00:36:30,634 --> 00:36:33,074
Because I feel like if we can't make it work here,

973
00:36:33,174 --> 00:36:34,794
how's anywhere else going to make it work?

974
00:36:34,794 --> 00:36:36,834
We have a prime situation here

975
00:36:36,834 --> 00:36:38,154
where we have Presidia Bitcoin.

976
00:36:38,414 --> 00:36:39,474
Everyone has Bitcoin to use.

977
00:36:39,474 --> 00:36:41,094
Two dozen plus members in growing

978
00:36:41,094 --> 00:36:43,974
who are here many times per week.

979
00:36:44,174 --> 00:36:47,134
We have hundreds and hundreds of global visitors

980
00:36:47,134 --> 00:36:48,694
flowing through here annually.

981
00:36:49,114 --> 00:36:49,474
I love it.

982
00:36:49,494 --> 00:36:51,174
All Bitcoiners, high intention.

983
00:36:51,534 --> 00:36:54,574
The kind of people who go out of their way

984
00:36:54,574 --> 00:36:57,334
to go to a merchant and pay in Bitcoin.

985
00:36:57,754 --> 00:36:59,014
They might even start rock climbing

986
00:36:59,014 --> 00:37:00,334
if they can pay in Bitcoin, right?

987
00:37:00,874 --> 00:37:03,634
So whether it's food or a workout or service.

988
00:37:03,634 --> 00:37:10,194
So we're going to work on the merchants here and try to sell them on it.

989
00:37:10,534 --> 00:37:16,714
Whether they use Square or another solution, however they need to enable it, be able to accept Bitcoin.

990
00:37:17,114 --> 00:37:20,894
And obviously, ones that have Square already, it'll be trivial to enable.

991
00:37:21,174 --> 00:37:22,354
Dude, that's a great idea.

992
00:37:22,554 --> 00:37:24,694
Bitcoin jungle, Bitcoin beach, Bitcoin park.

993
00:37:24,794 --> 00:37:26,374
Bitcoin R9.

994
00:37:26,994 --> 00:37:27,554
Bitcoin Presidio.

995
00:37:27,814 --> 00:37:29,614
Well, yeah, I got to come up with a game.

996
00:37:29,614 --> 00:37:31,694
I would love to extend that.

997
00:37:31,794 --> 00:37:33,674
Once we get a little bit of traction in the Presidio,

998
00:37:33,774 --> 00:37:36,234
we should get the Dolphin Club to accept Bitcoin as well

999
00:37:36,234 --> 00:37:38,954
because Lord knows I'm bringing enough Bitcoin people over there

1000
00:37:38,954 --> 00:37:41,874
to try to take as many meetings in the sauna as possible.

1001
00:37:42,414 --> 00:37:42,974
For sure.

1002
00:37:42,974 --> 00:37:45,954
We can extend our meetings beyond the borders

1003
00:37:45,954 --> 00:37:48,294
of the federal land here in the Presidio.

1004
00:37:48,434 --> 00:37:50,094
It's still city land, actually.

1005
00:37:50,934 --> 00:37:54,574
But yeah, that's just a fun little project.

1006
00:37:54,914 --> 00:37:56,954
I think Square Sales folks are going to help us as well.

1007
00:37:57,074 --> 00:37:57,534
That's awesome.

1008
00:37:57,834 --> 00:37:58,674
We'll bring in the pros.

1009
00:37:59,614 --> 00:38:03,594
But I think it'll be fun.

1010
00:38:04,094 --> 00:38:06,534
We'll learn a lot talking to merchants

1011
00:38:06,534 --> 00:38:09,134
and see what the experiences are,

1012
00:38:09,254 --> 00:38:10,274
and it'll be great to have.

1013
00:38:11,374 --> 00:38:13,154
It's actually a win for Presidio Bitcoin, I think,

1014
00:38:13,214 --> 00:38:14,774
because it's just another cool reason

1015
00:38:14,774 --> 00:38:15,674
to visit Presidio Bitcoin,

1016
00:38:15,834 --> 00:38:19,014
because you just walk and go grab lunch and pay him Bitcoin.

1017
00:38:19,274 --> 00:38:20,314
Have you talked to anybody yet?

1018
00:38:21,734 --> 00:38:23,374
So far, only Cafe Rx.

1019
00:38:23,494 --> 00:38:24,954
I was going to say, because that seems like

1020
00:38:24,954 --> 00:38:27,194
Indian Ops that they could kind of make their own call.

1021
00:38:27,194 --> 00:38:28,834
Yeah, the lady there, she's super nice.

1022
00:38:29,074 --> 00:38:29,934
She's super nice.

1023
00:38:30,054 --> 00:38:32,954
She directed me to the owner,

1024
00:38:33,314 --> 00:38:35,094
and that's where we're at.

1025
00:38:35,214 --> 00:38:35,874
Oh, this is awesome.

1026
00:38:36,154 --> 00:38:36,354
Yeah.

1027
00:38:36,594 --> 00:38:37,294
Great idea.

1028
00:38:37,574 --> 00:38:37,674
Yeah.

1029
00:38:38,174 --> 00:38:38,954
So I think that's...

1030
00:38:38,954 --> 00:38:40,014
And they use Square.

1031
00:38:40,114 --> 00:38:40,794
Yeah, they're Square.

1032
00:38:41,114 --> 00:38:41,534
They use Square.

1033
00:38:41,794 --> 00:38:43,274
Yes, it should be easy to flip it on.

1034
00:38:43,494 --> 00:38:43,634
Yeah.

1035
00:38:44,394 --> 00:38:44,594
Cool.

1036
00:38:44,894 --> 00:38:45,054
Yeah.

1037
00:38:45,194 --> 00:38:45,674
I'm stoked.

1038
00:38:46,034 --> 00:38:46,634
Good work.

1039
00:38:47,274 --> 00:38:47,574
All right.

1040
00:38:47,894 --> 00:38:49,274
Well, it's an idea.

1041
00:38:49,454 --> 00:38:49,734
Yeah.

1042
00:38:49,914 --> 00:38:50,374
In progress.

1043
00:38:50,554 --> 00:38:51,574
What about the stickers?

1044
00:38:51,834 --> 00:38:52,934
Is Square going to make them,

1045
00:38:52,994 --> 00:38:54,574
or maybe this is actually more Spiral,

1046
00:38:54,574 --> 00:38:57,014
because it's kind of not Square-specific,

1047
00:38:57,174 --> 00:38:57,534
but the open Square is going to make it here.

1048
00:38:57,534 --> 00:38:58,574
I suspect Square.

1049
00:38:58,574 --> 00:38:59,614
Square will be.

1050
00:39:00,474 --> 00:39:00,794
And then

1051
00:39:00,794 --> 00:39:03,274
Spiral

1052
00:39:03,274 --> 00:39:05,314
Spiral's thinking of

1053
00:39:05,314 --> 00:39:07,374
creative marketing ideas

1054
00:39:07,374 --> 00:39:10,494
that aren't necessarily

1055
00:39:10,494 --> 00:39:12,634
for Square, but it's more generally

1056
00:39:12,634 --> 00:39:13,994
for anyone in Bitcoin.

1057
00:39:14,054 --> 00:39:14,534
Well, that's what I mean.

1058
00:39:14,614 --> 00:39:17,054
If you have just Bitcoin, except

1059
00:39:17,054 --> 00:39:19,154
no mention of Square, you could use it for Square.

1060
00:39:19,154 --> 00:39:21,094
Or if someone wants to use BTC Pay Server.

1061
00:39:21,494 --> 00:39:22,834
Haley is working on a

1062
00:39:22,834 --> 00:39:25,214
merchant guide for Bitcoin.

1063
00:39:25,354 --> 00:39:26,054
Dude, this is awesome.

1064
00:39:26,394 --> 00:39:27,854
I wasn't even expecting this. Cool.

1065
00:39:28,574 --> 00:39:28,974
Nice.

1066
00:39:30,154 --> 00:39:30,554
Great.

1067
00:39:30,654 --> 00:39:31,014
So anything,

1068
00:39:31,214 --> 00:39:32,314
anything final notes

1069
00:39:32,314 --> 00:39:33,554
on the Square release

1070
00:39:33,554 --> 00:39:35,614
or can we pop over to?

1071
00:39:36,114 --> 00:39:37,474
One idea I wanted

1072
00:39:37,474 --> 00:39:38,094
to just mention

1073
00:39:38,094 --> 00:39:39,034
while we're thinking about this,

1074
00:39:39,234 --> 00:39:40,254
it would be really cool

1075
00:39:40,254 --> 00:39:42,374
if there was a way

1076
00:39:42,374 --> 00:39:44,634
for Cash App users

1077
00:39:44,634 --> 00:39:46,234
to orange pill the merchant too.

1078
00:39:46,814 --> 00:39:47,314
I don't know what

1079
00:39:47,314 --> 00:39:47,834
that would look like,

1080
00:39:47,854 --> 00:39:48,694
but some kind of incentive

1081
00:39:48,694 --> 00:39:49,214
where it's like,

1082
00:39:49,294 --> 00:39:49,894
okay, I already get

1083
00:39:49,894 --> 00:39:50,974
buy on Cash App.

1084
00:39:51,154 --> 00:39:52,554
If I get this merchant on,

1085
00:39:52,894 --> 00:39:53,674
I get some kind of

1086
00:39:53,674 --> 00:39:54,434
a sweetener too.

1087
00:39:54,814 --> 00:39:54,954
Right.

1088
00:39:55,774 --> 00:39:56,714
I'm not as familiar

1089
00:39:56,714 --> 00:39:57,874
with this new product

1090
00:39:57,874 --> 00:39:59,934
announced, but did you see the neighborhoods?

1091
00:40:00,534 --> 00:40:01,974
Yeah, I didn't read the details,

1092
00:40:02,074 --> 00:40:02,974
but I was thinking something along.

1093
00:40:03,274 --> 00:40:05,114
So it's giving,

1094
00:40:05,694 --> 00:40:07,134
it's trying to,

1095
00:40:08,414 --> 00:40:09,714
so it's

1096
00:40:09,714 --> 00:40:11,794
marketing local businesses to cash

1097
00:40:11,794 --> 00:40:12,514
up customers.

1098
00:40:13,454 --> 00:40:15,814
So if it's successful,

1099
00:40:16,134 --> 00:40:17,554
it'll help the little guy,

1100
00:40:17,654 --> 00:40:18,734
it'll help the small merchants.

1101
00:40:18,734 --> 00:40:18,994
Cool.

1102
00:40:20,294 --> 00:40:22,434
But I haven't used it yet, so I don't,

1103
00:40:22,794 --> 00:40:24,694
I can't really comment on the user experience, but I can

1104
00:40:24,694 --> 00:40:25,954
imagine. A Bitcoin tab.

1105
00:40:25,954 --> 00:40:27,254
I can imagine, yeah.

1106
00:40:27,614 --> 00:40:29,314
The neighborhood thing is not Bitcoin specific.

1107
00:40:30,314 --> 00:40:32,454
The neighborhood thing is not Bitcoin specific.

1108
00:40:32,814 --> 00:40:34,414
But you can imagine integrations.

1109
00:40:34,514 --> 00:40:35,054
Yeah, and you could say,

1110
00:40:35,154 --> 00:40:37,114
oh, there's these open maps

1111
00:40:37,114 --> 00:40:38,674
where you can find people that accept Bitcoin.

1112
00:40:38,814 --> 00:40:39,594
Like Albi has that in theirs.

1113
00:40:40,054 --> 00:40:40,554
That would be super cool.

1114
00:40:40,554 --> 00:40:41,394
Yeah, BTC map.

1115
00:40:41,654 --> 00:40:42,494
BTC map, exactly.

1116
00:40:42,854 --> 00:40:43,854
And they can even maybe integrate

1117
00:40:43,854 --> 00:40:44,674
the same open source.

1118
00:40:45,094 --> 00:40:45,794
That's awesome.

1119
00:40:46,754 --> 00:40:49,534
I had one other crazy idea around this.

1120
00:40:50,394 --> 00:40:51,154
Maybe it'll come to me later.

1121
00:40:51,314 --> 00:40:51,654
That's cool.

1122
00:40:51,854 --> 00:40:52,034
Okay.

1123
00:40:53,074 --> 00:40:53,294
Cool.

1124
00:40:53,694 --> 00:40:53,974
Nice.

1125
00:40:53,974 --> 00:40:55,714
And just to clarify,

1126
00:40:55,714 --> 00:41:07,594
I think the understanding here is if a merchant is accepting Bitcoin and the customer is using Cash App, then it's never touching like the traditional fiat rails, right?

1127
00:41:08,194 --> 00:41:10,694
I mean, the customer is using any Bitcoin wallet.

1128
00:41:11,274 --> 00:41:12,014
Yeah, that's the cool part.

1129
00:41:12,134 --> 00:41:15,334
They could use a Cash U wallet, a FedMent wallet, ARK, Spark, whatever, right?

1130
00:41:15,414 --> 00:41:20,954
But meaning in a sense, it changes the layer around which these transactions happen.

1131
00:41:20,954 --> 00:41:25,594
it sort of removes one of the big toll boosts on payment.

1132
00:41:25,594 --> 00:41:28,874
Yeah, that's how Locke can offer zero fees

1133
00:41:28,874 --> 00:41:30,854
for a year and change.

1134
00:41:32,174 --> 00:41:33,914
And I don't know what the fees will be after that,

1135
00:41:33,994 --> 00:41:35,434
but I doubt they're going to be 3%.

1136
00:41:35,434 --> 00:41:36,214
They said 1%.

1137
00:41:36,214 --> 00:41:37,914
Oh, did they say 1%?

1138
00:41:38,094 --> 00:41:38,234
Yeah.

1139
00:41:38,614 --> 00:41:40,114
But I think that's kind of a big deal

1140
00:41:40,114 --> 00:41:43,194
because I think for the history of Square,

1141
00:41:43,874 --> 00:41:48,034
it's always kind of been tied to the rails of Visa.

1142
00:41:48,654 --> 00:41:49,194
Well, not entirely.

1143
00:41:49,194 --> 00:41:49,854
because you do

1144
00:41:49,854 --> 00:41:51,054
if you were a cash app user

1145
00:41:51,054 --> 00:41:52,214
you could do cash apps

1146
00:41:52,214 --> 00:41:53,194
pay at Square

1147
00:41:53,194 --> 00:41:53,874
and I don't know

1148
00:41:53,874 --> 00:41:54,674
if they gave you a discount

1149
00:41:54,674 --> 00:41:55,354
but that was just like

1150
00:41:55,354 --> 00:41:56,054
an internal ledger

1151
00:41:56,054 --> 00:41:56,374
okay

1152
00:41:56,374 --> 00:41:57,114
yeah

1153
00:41:57,114 --> 00:41:58,434
how long has that been around

1154
00:41:58,434 --> 00:41:59,514
two years

1155
00:41:59,514 --> 00:41:59,914
three years

1156
00:41:59,914 --> 00:42:01,574
that exists

1157
00:42:01,574 --> 00:42:02,054
but like

1158
00:42:02,054 --> 00:42:03,214
cash

1159
00:42:03,214 --> 00:42:05,174
cash app card

1160
00:42:05,174 --> 00:42:05,914
which has like

1161
00:42:05,914 --> 00:42:06,374
something like

1162
00:42:06,374 --> 00:42:07,454
25 or 30 million

1163
00:42:07,454 --> 00:42:08,494
customers

1164
00:42:08,494 --> 00:42:09,714
like it's very popular

1165
00:42:09,714 --> 00:42:10,214
yeah

1166
00:42:10,214 --> 00:42:11,634
that still goes

1167
00:42:11,634 --> 00:42:13,214
over Visa network

1168
00:42:13,214 --> 00:42:13,594
oh

1169
00:42:13,594 --> 00:42:15,314
yeah I remember my crazy idea

1170
00:42:15,314 --> 00:42:16,614
this might be

1171
00:42:16,614 --> 00:42:17,654
less appealing

1172
00:42:17,654 --> 00:42:18,374
in the United States

1173
00:42:18,374 --> 00:42:18,994
I think this has

1174
00:42:19,194 --> 00:42:22,874
huge potential internationally. Maybe it will be square one day as they go internationally,

1175
00:42:22,874 --> 00:42:27,034
or maybe this will be frankly even better as a local open source thing. Maybe it could work in

1176
00:42:27,034 --> 00:42:31,754
the US. But one idea that, actually you remember when I was working with my homie Pablo, when we

1177
00:42:31,754 --> 00:42:37,034
first met and we're giving away Bitcoin to people in Mexico, which by the way, it was $3,000 back

1178
00:42:37,034 --> 00:42:42,554
then. So I hope folks held on to all that. It's kind of crazy that all happened. We got Coinbase

1179
00:42:42,554 --> 00:42:48,474
as a nonprofit of all people to give us a Bitcoin to give away, which at least they did something

1180
00:42:48,474 --> 00:42:58,654
for Bitcoin. Anyways, what would be really cool is to see, imagine in this map, so you have a map

1181
00:42:58,654 --> 00:43:05,154
where you can spend Bitcoin, but you can even go a step further and basically turn every merchant

1182
00:43:05,154 --> 00:43:10,354
that accepts Bitcoin into a local Bitcoins dealer. And this could get a little dangerous because you

1183
00:43:10,354 --> 00:43:14,934
have a lot of cash and maybe it makes you a threat for robbery or whatever. But just imagine you're

1184
00:43:14,934 --> 00:43:16,094
like a corner store in Mexico

1185
00:43:16,094 --> 00:43:17,474
and now your side hustle

1186
00:43:17,474 --> 00:43:18,834
in addition to accepting

1187
00:43:18,834 --> 00:43:19,814
Bitcoin payments is,

1188
00:43:19,934 --> 00:43:20,154
oh yeah,

1189
00:43:20,194 --> 00:43:21,774
I can just like market make

1190
00:43:21,774 --> 00:43:22,314
like cash,

1191
00:43:22,414 --> 00:43:22,734
Bitcoin,

1192
00:43:23,194 --> 00:43:23,934
take a 2% fee

1193
00:43:23,934 --> 00:43:24,734
or whatever it is.

1194
00:43:25,374 --> 00:43:27,054
That gets wild and crazy

1195
00:43:27,054 --> 00:43:27,874
because then you can have

1196
00:43:27,874 --> 00:43:29,274
like a massive explosion

1197
00:43:29,274 --> 00:43:30,074
of peer-to-peer trading

1198
00:43:30,074 --> 00:43:30,394
which,

1199
00:43:30,654 --> 00:43:31,154
you know,

1200
00:43:31,434 --> 00:43:32,254
has a few benefits.

1201
00:43:32,634 --> 00:43:32,694
Yeah.

1202
00:43:33,254 --> 00:43:33,434
Yeah,

1203
00:43:33,434 --> 00:43:33,934
you can imagine

1204
00:43:33,934 --> 00:43:35,214
point-of-sale systems

1205
00:43:35,214 --> 00:43:36,874
becoming like ATMs.

1206
00:43:37,254 --> 00:43:37,614
Exactly.

1207
00:43:38,114 --> 00:43:38,314
Yep.

1208
00:43:38,574 --> 00:43:39,754
Turning everyone into a dealer.

1209
00:43:40,574 --> 00:43:40,974
Crazy.

1210
00:43:41,974 --> 00:43:42,754
Bitcoin dealer.

1211
00:43:44,134 --> 00:43:44,734
Go get us,

1212
00:43:44,734 --> 00:43:50,494
We didn't do the trip report to Santa Fe.

1213
00:43:50,794 --> 00:43:51,054
Oh.

1214
00:43:51,354 --> 00:43:53,094
You want to drop us at Santa Fe?

1215
00:43:53,254 --> 00:43:55,034
Yeah, so I mean, I got a lot going on,

1216
00:43:55,154 --> 00:43:56,374
which we'll talk about some other stuff.

1217
00:43:56,434 --> 00:43:59,334
But I've been extremely busy the last six weeks.

1218
00:44:00,334 --> 00:44:02,114
Fun stuff, which I can't talk about,

1219
00:44:02,174 --> 00:44:03,114
but a big deadline today.

1220
00:44:03,654 --> 00:44:06,834
Then I've got the type one stuff we'll talk about.

1221
00:44:07,634 --> 00:44:09,914
But last week was a fun trip.

1222
00:44:09,954 --> 00:44:11,474
And the reason I couldn't participate in PBJ

1223
00:44:11,474 --> 00:44:15,134
is I went to the Santa Fe Institute.

1224
00:44:16,474 --> 00:44:17,294
I think you are.

1225
00:44:17,394 --> 00:44:17,854
I don't know if you are.

1226
00:44:17,894 --> 00:44:18,694
Are you familiar with Santa Fe Institute?

1227
00:44:19,274 --> 00:44:19,994
You've heard of it, no?

1228
00:44:20,074 --> 00:44:20,374
Yeah, yeah.

1229
00:44:20,874 --> 00:44:23,114
So SFI, for those of you who don't know,

1230
00:44:23,354 --> 00:44:26,334
is pretty famous in physics, I would say.

1231
00:44:27,794 --> 00:44:31,634
They're kind of known as the hub for complexity science.

1232
00:44:32,194 --> 00:44:33,974
And what does complexity science mean?

1233
00:44:34,554 --> 00:44:35,034
Good question.

1234
00:44:35,114 --> 00:44:35,974
I don't think anyone really knows.

1235
00:44:35,974 --> 00:44:39,834
But the gist is studying kind of like emergent properties,

1236
00:44:39,954 --> 00:44:40,274
I would say.

1237
00:44:40,274 --> 00:45:02,774
So looking at systems and less from an engineering perspective and more from an evolutionary perspective. What happens when you put the pieces in place and then watch as emergent systems emerge or evolve? And so I'm extremely interested in that stuff. I love thinking about what I'll call the holon theory that everything in the universe is part and whole and part and whole.

1238
00:45:02,774 --> 00:45:08,294
like the cell is part of a molecule, is part of an organ, you know, is part of an organ system,

1239
00:45:08,434 --> 00:45:13,814
is part of a human or a body, is part of a biosphere, is part of a solar system,

1240
00:45:13,914 --> 00:45:19,254
is part of a galaxy, just all the way up and all the way down. And so anyways, you know,

1241
00:45:19,334 --> 00:45:23,254
most of academia, and my point is just, in my view, is just like a giant waste of time

1242
00:45:23,254 --> 00:45:27,554
because it's like super siloed and it's all this bureaucracy and crap and like the peer review

1243
00:45:27,554 --> 00:45:34,114
process, when you start learning about peer review, that's a clusterfuck. But a lot of these

1244
00:45:34,114 --> 00:45:37,754
academics are very, very intelligent people who could do really valuable things for the world.

1245
00:45:37,854 --> 00:45:42,094
So one of the things we discussed on the show that you were posing is like, how do we get

1246
00:45:42,094 --> 00:45:45,394
economists sitting in the coin? Like, wow, wouldn't that be awesome if they were doing something

1247
00:45:45,394 --> 00:45:54,234
useful instead of like fiat voodoo? Seriously. And so one of my goals was, I think if ever there

1248
00:45:54,234 --> 00:45:59,994
is a place. So one of the reasons I'm so bullish and excited about open protocol systems like

1249
00:45:59,994 --> 00:46:05,714
Bitcoin and like Nostra is I view them as digital commons, which actually are a form of stateless

1250
00:46:05,714 --> 00:46:10,054
socialism, which I view as a controversial take for much of the Bitcoin community. But listen to

1251
00:46:10,054 --> 00:46:13,994
my chat with Ben Ark on anarchism, FOSS, and the origins of Nostra if you're interested in those

1252
00:46:13,994 --> 00:46:23,274
questions. But I view it as the substrates in which the next forms of human evolution,

1253
00:46:23,614 --> 00:46:23,934
or sorry,

1254
00:46:24,074 --> 00:46:26,074
of any evolution

1255
00:46:26,074 --> 00:46:27,194
are going to emerge, right?

1256
00:46:27,214 --> 00:46:28,094
Because you have these systems

1257
00:46:28,094 --> 00:46:29,394
where they're open systems

1258
00:46:29,394 --> 00:46:30,454
and it's going to mimic

1259
00:46:30,454 --> 00:46:31,374
a lot of what happens

1260
00:46:31,374 --> 00:46:31,734
in biology.

1261
00:46:31,854 --> 00:46:33,374
So one of my personal goals,

1262
00:46:33,474 --> 00:46:47,608
because I a fan of SFI was to try and see if I can you know orange and purple pill some of the people there and get folks interested in doing this research And yeah so you know shout out to actually our homie Mark

1263
00:46:47,688 --> 00:46:50,748
and one of his colleagues is on the board there.

1264
00:46:51,048 --> 00:46:51,628
And I was just like,

1265
00:46:51,668 --> 00:46:52,848
hey, I'd like to go orange pill them

1266
00:46:52,848 --> 00:46:54,468
and got me in, which was cool.

1267
00:46:55,088 --> 00:46:56,308
And I went and did some orange pill.

1268
00:46:56,468 --> 00:46:58,228
So my trip-

1269
00:46:58,228 --> 00:46:58,468
Undercover?

1270
00:46:58,788 --> 00:47:01,268
Did you wear like an orange suit?

1271
00:47:01,848 --> 00:47:02,768
Definitely did not.

1272
00:47:02,928 --> 00:47:03,648
Definitely did not.

1273
00:47:03,648 --> 00:47:09,248
um i did actually i wore a pterodactyl shirt so that my dad made i was just it's pretty cool uh

1274
00:47:09,248 --> 00:47:16,408
did you did you come in you arrived you arrived and they knew that you had that as a well i mean

1275
00:47:16,408 --> 00:47:20,848
research no i mean sort of i mean a little bit i mean that that was not my only intention i also

1276
00:47:20,848 --> 00:47:25,648
just thought it was cool and i wanted to go and just yeah be part of it but like you know i yeah

1277
00:47:25,648 --> 00:47:31,248
i told the told carl the guy to help me out um that that was something i wanted to do anyways so

1278
00:47:31,248 --> 00:47:33,728
it was very interesting for many reasons.

1279
00:47:34,008 --> 00:47:36,188
There were, of course, some people I talked to

1280
00:47:36,188 --> 00:47:37,768
that thought I was crazy, and that's fine.

1281
00:47:38,008 --> 00:47:39,948
I'm used to that at this point, being a Bitcoiner.

1282
00:47:40,488 --> 00:47:42,068
But there was a lot of really,

1283
00:47:42,288 --> 00:47:44,288
I would say, open receptivity

1284
00:47:44,288 --> 00:47:44,968
to these ideas.

1285
00:47:45,588 --> 00:47:47,328
Without doxing specific names,

1286
00:47:48,408 --> 00:47:49,528
some of the researchers,

1287
00:47:49,668 --> 00:47:51,828
there was one researcher who was a father

1288
00:47:51,828 --> 00:47:52,728
of quantum computing.

1289
00:47:53,288 --> 00:47:55,408
If I said his name, you would know it. It's a big deal.

1290
00:47:55,848 --> 00:47:56,428
Really big deal.

1291
00:47:57,088 --> 00:47:58,288
We chatted for a little while.

1292
00:47:59,728 --> 00:48:00,508
You know at first,

1293
00:48:00,508 --> 00:48:01,028
Oh, yeah.

1294
00:48:01,248 --> 00:48:02,108
Thanks for not doxing him, though.

1295
00:48:02,268 --> 00:48:02,408
Yeah.

1296
00:48:04,108 --> 00:48:04,548
Father.

1297
00:48:05,608 --> 00:48:06,748
Probably two people.

1298
00:48:06,748 --> 00:48:07,248
Two fathers.

1299
00:48:08,708 --> 00:48:10,428
Or mother.

1300
00:48:12,668 --> 00:48:16,328
Anyways, and so we were chatting,

1301
00:48:16,508 --> 00:48:17,688
and, you know, first you get the whole,

1302
00:48:17,948 --> 00:48:21,308
and this is why, again, I loathe and despise crypto.

1303
00:48:21,388 --> 00:48:22,668
It's the only thing I truly hate

1304
00:48:22,668 --> 00:48:24,508
because it makes our job so difficult.

1305
00:48:24,668 --> 00:48:25,688
It's like I start talking about Bitcoin,

1306
00:48:25,788 --> 00:48:27,008
it's like, I don't like all that crypto crap.

1307
00:48:27,088 --> 00:48:29,608
It's like, believe me, no one hates crypto more than me.

1308
00:48:29,608 --> 00:48:30,288
Trust me.

1309
00:48:30,508 --> 00:48:36,748
no one and um i'm like bitcoin and so so i i what i found was really um sort of effective with these

1310
00:48:36,748 --> 00:48:41,788
folks is you know talking about the energy angle you know bitcoin is uh this portal between the

1311
00:48:41,788 --> 00:48:45,528
digital and the physical realms and when i really hit with this guy i was like okay this is an

1312
00:48:45,528 --> 00:48:50,428
einstein new level breakthrough and like you dk where i saw his eyes light up were on two two

1313
00:48:50,428 --> 00:48:54,068
things one you know it's kind of hinting i can tell this guy wants a nobel and i was like well

1314
00:48:54,068 --> 00:48:57,168
this is a Nobel type of project right around here.

1315
00:48:58,148 --> 00:49:03,108
And when I explained to him in great detail

1316
00:49:03,108 --> 00:49:04,028
the difficulty adjustment,

1317
00:49:04,948 --> 00:49:05,828
because he'd never,

1318
00:49:06,048 --> 00:49:08,308
so anyone who's like actually extremely intelligent,

1319
00:49:08,688 --> 00:49:09,588
physicist or whatever,

1320
00:49:09,868 --> 00:49:12,528
if you can get them to just understand

1321
00:49:12,528 --> 00:49:13,368
the difficulty adjustment,

1322
00:49:13,448 --> 00:49:14,048
because he kept being like,

1323
00:49:14,068 --> 00:49:15,128
well, who shifts the difficulty?

1324
00:49:15,288 --> 00:49:15,648
And I was like,

1325
00:49:16,008 --> 00:49:18,768
it's a cybernetic feedback loop.

1326
00:49:19,608 --> 00:49:21,888
And when I finally saw him click on that,

1327
00:49:21,888 --> 00:49:22,288
he goes,

1328
00:49:22,288 --> 00:49:25,248
and for those of you who don't know, the difficulty adjustment

1329
00:49:25,248 --> 00:49:27,688
the very high level thing that's super important here is

1330
00:49:27,688 --> 00:49:31,108
miners, every whatever 10 minutes or so

1331
00:49:31,108 --> 00:49:34,008
are supposed to get a block, they have to solve one way hash functions

1332
00:49:34,008 --> 00:49:37,168
which basically means you can just think of it as they're brute forcing Sudoku puzzles

1333
00:49:37,168 --> 00:49:39,828
it's a loose analogy

1334
00:49:39,828 --> 00:49:41,348
but they're brute forcing Sudoku puzzles

1335
00:49:41,348 --> 00:49:46,348
and if they want to get the rewards from a block

1336
00:49:46,348 --> 00:49:49,468
and transaction fees, they need to append a number

1337
00:49:49,468 --> 00:49:50,788
with a certain number of zeros,

1338
00:49:50,788 --> 00:49:52,648
or they need to append a number to transactions

1339
00:49:52,648 --> 00:49:53,928
to create a number,

1340
00:49:54,548 --> 00:49:56,148
hash together with a certain number of zeros.

1341
00:49:57,008 --> 00:49:58,948
If there's too much hash power,

1342
00:49:59,168 --> 00:50:01,488
which means the blocks are getting solved too fast,

1343
00:50:01,808 --> 00:50:04,648
then the system every two weeks self-adjusts

1344
00:50:04,648 --> 00:50:05,948
and says, we need more difficulty.

1345
00:50:06,068 --> 00:50:07,988
You need to post more zeros to get this reward.

1346
00:50:08,468 --> 00:50:11,208
And if there's too few and it's too hard,

1347
00:50:11,308 --> 00:50:12,788
then it says you need fewer zeros

1348
00:50:12,788 --> 00:50:14,988
and you get faster rewards.

1349
00:50:15,988 --> 00:50:18,348
That is a really, really big deal

1350
00:50:18,348 --> 00:50:22,548
that truly, truly, if anyone's super intelligent

1351
00:50:22,548 --> 00:50:23,808
that comes to you and says,

1352
00:50:23,868 --> 00:50:24,708
ah, Bitcoin's a scam,

1353
00:50:25,468 --> 00:50:28,028
really, if you sit down with them on this one point,

1354
00:50:28,108 --> 00:50:29,688
on that cybernetic feedback loop,

1355
00:50:31,228 --> 00:50:33,288
I would be shocked if they're not blown away

1356
00:50:33,288 --> 00:50:35,068
and become a Bitcoiner by the end of that conversation.

1357
00:50:35,228 --> 00:50:36,828
So anyways, when this guy finally understood that,

1358
00:50:37,168 --> 00:50:38,008
saw his eyes light up.

1359
00:50:38,388 --> 00:50:40,608
The second thing I chatted with him about

1360
00:50:40,608 --> 00:50:43,028
was we talked about quantum biology.

1361
00:50:43,428 --> 00:50:45,508
So he's very interested in light and very interested.

1362
00:50:45,668 --> 00:50:47,208
So I've also been with my dad

1363
00:50:47,208 --> 00:50:51,028
actually getting obsessed with plants since I've been gardening. There's this crazy book called

1364
00:50:51,028 --> 00:50:56,688
The Secret Life of Plants. If you want to go way out there, it's cool. But photosynthesis is such

1365
00:50:56,688 --> 00:51:02,708
a magical thing. You're literally taking Photon and converting that into life. And so we jammed

1366
00:51:02,708 --> 00:51:07,288
on photosynthesis for a long time. And when I told him, I was like, listen, dude, what's the

1367
00:51:07,288 --> 00:51:12,348
most magic currency in all of this? He was like, well, it's ATP. And I was like, exactly. Bitcoin

1368
00:51:12,348 --> 00:51:16,788
is the digital ATP, which an idea I borrowed from Drew Bansel. Also, shout out. If you haven't

1369
00:51:16,788 --> 00:51:17,568
I heard my interview with Drew.

1370
00:51:18,168 --> 00:51:19,008
I think it's one of the,

1371
00:51:19,648 --> 00:51:21,288
anything that guy's done is like quality.

1372
00:51:23,348 --> 00:51:25,528
And when he saw that digital ATP thing,

1373
00:51:25,668 --> 00:51:26,248
that's when I was like,

1374
00:51:26,748 --> 00:51:27,868
there's a Nobel in here somewhere.

1375
00:51:28,908 --> 00:51:31,848
So we'll see if we get a paper published on this,

1376
00:51:31,908 --> 00:51:32,648
but I was-

1377
00:51:32,648 --> 00:51:33,368
So you're happy you went?

1378
00:51:33,528 --> 00:51:34,848
I was pleased on that one.

1379
00:51:34,888 --> 00:51:35,848
Yes, I was very pleased.

1380
00:51:36,688 --> 00:51:37,968
And yeah, I-

1381
00:51:37,968 --> 00:51:39,088
Did you see the general vibe

1382
00:51:39,088 --> 00:51:40,748
after you talked to a bunch of people

1383
00:51:40,748 --> 00:51:42,108
that they kind of got it

1384
00:51:42,108 --> 00:51:43,908
or came to a better understanding

1385
00:51:43,908 --> 00:51:44,968
or a lot of them?

1386
00:51:45,068 --> 00:51:45,688
Not everyone.

1387
00:51:46,788 --> 00:51:49,808
where the people who weren't receptive,

1388
00:51:50,008 --> 00:51:51,568
were they just very skeptical to start with

1389
00:51:51,568 --> 00:51:52,948
and they sort of bucketed it as-

1390
00:51:52,948 --> 00:51:56,188
Yeah, I don't think they were willing to do the time

1391
00:51:56,188 --> 00:51:57,508
or like this guy was actually willing

1392
00:51:57,508 --> 00:51:58,228
to have the conversation,

1393
00:51:58,408 --> 00:52:00,308
talk about the feedback loops.

1394
00:52:00,928 --> 00:52:03,048
So there was no one that I got that far in with.

1395
00:52:03,108 --> 00:52:04,168
I don't think there's ever been anyone

1396
00:52:04,168 --> 00:52:05,168
I've gotten that far in with

1397
00:52:05,168 --> 00:52:07,728
that doesn't completely change their mind on Bitcoin.

1398
00:52:08,228 --> 00:52:09,228
But yeah, for a lot of people,

1399
00:52:09,308 --> 00:52:10,288
they don't want to take the time to go there deep.

1400
00:52:10,368 --> 00:52:11,448
That's really fun.

1401
00:52:11,488 --> 00:52:14,088
I was also talking about some of their wild ideas with folks.

1402
00:52:14,188 --> 00:52:16,028
I talked with another very famous physicist there

1403
00:52:16,028 --> 00:52:20,428
and explain my views that consciousness came prior to materialism

1404
00:52:20,428 --> 00:52:22,588
and that he walked away at that point.

1405
00:52:22,768 --> 00:52:23,388
So, you know, whatever.

1406
00:52:23,828 --> 00:52:25,628
You got to shoot your shots.

1407
00:52:25,948 --> 00:52:27,368
But it was cool.

1408
00:52:27,608 --> 00:52:29,768
And yeah, I hope to stay more involved with that group.

1409
00:52:30,008 --> 00:52:31,248
Materialism meaning like tool building?

1410
00:52:31,588 --> 00:52:34,628
No, like mind coming prior to matter.

1411
00:52:35,648 --> 00:52:37,028
That's a much deeper rabbit hole.

1412
00:52:38,348 --> 00:52:41,728
Anyways, the point is it was really cool.

1413
00:52:42,028 --> 00:52:42,748
I had a great time.

1414
00:52:42,748 --> 00:52:44,508
Thank you, Carl and Mark.

1415
00:52:44,888 --> 00:52:45,828
Shout out for making that happen.

1416
00:52:46,028 --> 00:52:51,568
I hope that we continue to, who knows, maybe I invited one of the guys to come to our event

1417
00:52:51,568 --> 00:52:53,188
we're going to be hosting, which we'll talk about in a minute.

1418
00:52:53,628 --> 00:52:57,648
But I hope we continue to build relationships here because that is an institute where if

1419
00:52:57,648 --> 00:53:01,168
anyone should be doing this kind of research we're talking about around complexity with

1420
00:53:01,168 --> 00:53:02,168
Bitcoin and Nostra, it's them.

1421
00:53:03,368 --> 00:53:08,908
Before we get to the big event, I'm curious, did either of you guys attend the Nostra event

1422
00:53:08,908 --> 00:53:09,348
last night?

1423
00:53:09,368 --> 00:53:09,608
I did.

1424
00:53:10,608 --> 00:53:13,348
Because I really wanted to go.

1425
00:53:13,348 --> 00:53:18,128
So did Alex, but the two of us had a prior obligation to go to an EFF event.

1426
00:53:18,348 --> 00:53:19,348
We can talk about that a little bit as well.

1427
00:53:19,348 --> 00:53:20,008
Yeah, we can talk about that too.

1428
00:53:20,088 --> 00:53:25,148
But give us a lowdown of how the Nostra event, the inaugural Nostra event at PB.

1429
00:53:25,408 --> 00:53:27,028
So I will, but that's awesome.

1430
00:53:27,168 --> 00:53:32,508
On the EFF front, we're orange-pilling all the organizations that should be into Bitcoin that are not yet.

1431
00:53:32,708 --> 00:53:37,588
So SFI, EFF, like, soon get the Internet Archive.

1432
00:53:37,748 --> 00:53:41,248
We need to get all the cool people that maybe got a little shit going in for a minute.

1433
00:53:41,248 --> 00:53:44,488
Nostradep is awesome

1434
00:53:44,488 --> 00:53:45,628
it was the first one

1435
00:53:45,628 --> 00:53:46,588
shout out to Dustin

1436
00:53:46,588 --> 00:53:48,068
who just made it

1437
00:53:48,068 --> 00:53:48,368
yeah

1438
00:53:48,368 --> 00:53:49,208
like

1439
00:53:49,208 --> 00:53:50,528
did a really good job

1440
00:53:50,528 --> 00:53:52,148
and also shout out to Alex

1441
00:53:52,148 --> 00:53:53,148
appreciate the little star

1442
00:53:53,148 --> 00:53:53,488
by the way

1443
00:53:53,488 --> 00:53:54,008
that was dope

1444
00:53:54,008 --> 00:53:55,428
we got the good pizza

1445
00:53:55,428 --> 00:53:55,708
like

1446
00:53:55,708 --> 00:53:57,248
anyone who knows

1447
00:53:57,248 --> 00:53:58,008
double missed out

1448
00:53:58,008 --> 00:54:00,348
little star is the only way to go

1449
00:54:00,348 --> 00:54:02,668
it was delicious

1450
00:54:02,668 --> 00:54:03,188
but anyways

1451
00:54:03,188 --> 00:54:06,468
we had a good group come out

1452
00:54:06,468 --> 00:54:07,028
some people

1453
00:54:07,028 --> 00:54:08,308
I mean I won't dox it

1454
00:54:08,308 --> 00:54:08,768
but some people

1455
00:54:08,768 --> 00:54:09,828
from like crypto land

1456
00:54:09,828 --> 00:54:10,308
I was shocked

1457
00:54:10,308 --> 00:54:12,288
that I like fairly famous folks I had never met.

1458
00:54:12,448 --> 00:54:13,428
I think Max is friends with them.

1459
00:54:15,068 --> 00:54:18,708
And I would say we probably started a little too late.

1460
00:54:18,768 --> 00:54:19,808
So that was my only feedback to Dustin

1461
00:54:19,808 --> 00:54:21,468
because we got, you know, people came at six

1462
00:54:21,468 --> 00:54:22,108
and we started at seven,

1463
00:54:22,228 --> 00:54:23,428
probably start at 6.30 next time.

1464
00:54:23,928 --> 00:54:26,348
But he gave a great overview of Noster.

1465
00:54:26,608 --> 00:54:28,628
He showed kind of the magic of being able

1466
00:54:28,628 --> 00:54:30,148
to like create an identity in Primal

1467
00:54:30,148 --> 00:54:32,148
and then log in with Iris

1468
00:54:32,148 --> 00:54:34,508
and like you get the same graph and the same notes.

1469
00:54:34,508 --> 00:54:36,388
And we talked about Highlighter

1470
00:54:36,388 --> 00:54:37,368
and a couple other projects.

1471
00:54:37,368 --> 00:54:49,828
I think one thing that really struck me from this presentation, which I will kind of shift my own presentation to people of what Nostra is, is he showed them, he's like, when people ask me what is Nostra, I go to Awesome Nostra.

1472
00:54:50,388 --> 00:54:55,268
And this is maintained by Algeaz, who is a longtime Lightning Bitcoin guy.

1473
00:54:55,928 --> 00:54:59,668
And it's awesome because Awesome Nostra, like even I was blown away.

1474
00:54:59,888 --> 00:55:01,348
Have you all been to Awesome Nostra yet?

1475
00:55:01,828 --> 00:55:03,248
I've seen it like a while back.

1476
00:55:03,408 --> 00:55:04,548
I haven't been there in a while.

1477
00:55:04,848 --> 00:55:05,648
It's been a year.

1478
00:55:05,648 --> 00:55:06,808
you know what I mean

1479
00:55:06,808 --> 00:55:07,408
there's like awesome

1480
00:55:07,408 --> 00:55:08,268
just a github page

1481
00:55:08,268 --> 00:55:09,228
with a bunch of

1482
00:55:09,228 --> 00:55:09,568
cool

1483
00:55:09,568 --> 00:55:10,708
exactly

1484
00:55:10,708 --> 00:55:11,328
it's just a github page

1485
00:55:11,328 --> 00:55:12,848
but the point is like

1486
00:55:12,848 --> 00:55:14,528
it's just like

1487
00:55:14,528 --> 00:55:15,808
a year ago

1488
00:55:15,808 --> 00:55:16,008
it was like

1489
00:55:16,008 --> 00:55:16,308
oh there's like

1490
00:55:16,308 --> 00:55:16,848
a hundred projects

1491
00:55:16,848 --> 00:55:17,408
dude

1492
00:55:17,408 --> 00:55:18,228
thousands

1493
00:55:18,228 --> 00:55:19,168
he just kept scrolling

1494
00:55:19,168 --> 00:55:19,988
and scrolling

1495
00:55:19,988 --> 00:55:20,628
and scrolling

1496
00:55:20,628 --> 00:55:21,048
and yeah

1497
00:55:21,048 --> 00:55:22,048
a lot of it's libraries

1498
00:55:22,048 --> 00:55:22,728
and like

1499
00:55:22,728 --> 00:55:24,228
while one dude

1500
00:55:24,228 --> 00:55:24,508
in the audience

1501
00:55:24,508 --> 00:55:24,708
was like

1502
00:55:24,708 --> 00:55:25,088
well yeah

1503
00:55:25,088 --> 00:55:25,908
but that's libraries

1504
00:55:25,908 --> 00:55:26,468
and this and that

1505
00:55:26,468 --> 00:55:27,528
and then he was just like

1506
00:55:27,528 --> 00:55:28,368
oh I'm still scrolling

1507
00:55:28,368 --> 00:55:29,248
well I'm still scrolling

1508
00:55:29,248 --> 00:55:29,748
but I'm still

1509
00:55:29,748 --> 00:55:30,888
I was shocked

1510
00:55:30,888 --> 00:55:31,928
I'm curious

1511
00:55:31,928 --> 00:55:32,388
out of the

1512
00:55:32,388 --> 00:55:33,648
people that came

1513
00:55:33,648 --> 00:55:34,928
how many were

1514
00:55:34,928 --> 00:55:36,888
would identify as like Nostra people

1515
00:55:36,888 --> 00:55:38,748
versus a more Nostra curious?

1516
00:55:39,828 --> 00:55:40,888
It's a good question.

1517
00:55:41,148 --> 00:55:41,848
I would say,

1518
00:55:42,188 --> 00:55:43,008
so I don't know how many we had,

1519
00:55:43,068 --> 00:55:44,848
maybe like 12 to 15,

1520
00:55:44,948 --> 00:55:45,348
something like that.

1521
00:55:45,368 --> 00:55:46,128
So it was not huge,

1522
00:55:46,388 --> 00:55:47,928
maybe closer to 15 than some people left.

1523
00:55:49,328 --> 00:55:52,648
I would say all but one

1524
00:55:52,648 --> 00:55:55,048
were familiar with Nostra.

1525
00:55:55,048 --> 00:55:56,148
One guy was just brand new

1526
00:55:56,148 --> 00:55:57,168
and he came to Design Week.

1527
00:55:58,588 --> 00:55:59,368
Most people,

1528
00:55:59,448 --> 00:56:00,408
there were a few overlap

1529
00:56:00,408 --> 00:56:01,408
from some of the Bitcoin events.

1530
00:56:01,488 --> 00:56:02,908
It was actually a slightly different crowd,

1531
00:56:03,128 --> 00:56:04,088
which I thought was cool.

1532
00:56:04,928 --> 00:56:12,108
I think everyone was also a Bitcoiner or Bitcoin curious, but there was definitely a different vibe.

1533
00:56:12,368 --> 00:56:14,968
People that were more interested in building a new web, I would say.

1534
00:56:15,868 --> 00:56:22,848
Do you think the curiosity kind of biased toward the social media use case of Nostra that a lot of people talk about?

1535
00:56:22,928 --> 00:56:25,168
Or was it sort of biasing against that more towards infrastructure?

1536
00:56:25,408 --> 00:56:28,508
I think more towards the other stuff, the new ideas.

1537
00:56:28,508 --> 00:56:29,928
and I think

1538
00:56:29,928 --> 00:56:30,908
so another thing

1539
00:56:30,908 --> 00:56:32,348
there was someone who came

1540
00:56:32,348 --> 00:56:33,388
who I definitely won't dox

1541
00:56:33,388 --> 00:56:34,008
but was very cool

1542
00:56:34,008 --> 00:56:35,328
the creator of Hive Talk

1543
00:56:35,328 --> 00:56:36,608
came and gave a presentation

1544
00:56:36,608 --> 00:56:39,168
yeah not doxing

1545
00:56:39,168 --> 00:56:40,348
no but it's a pseudonym

1546
00:56:40,348 --> 00:56:42,148
I'm not saying who it was

1547
00:56:42,148 --> 00:56:43,188
but it was a really

1548
00:56:43,188 --> 00:56:44,288
really cool presentation

1549
00:56:44,288 --> 00:56:46,148
and I walked away

1550
00:56:46,148 --> 00:56:47,768
extremely impressed by that

1551
00:56:47,768 --> 00:56:48,988
and what is Hive Talk?

1552
00:56:49,108 --> 00:56:49,828
it's like Zoom

1553
00:56:49,828 --> 00:56:51,068
but you can use

1554
00:56:51,068 --> 00:56:51,788
Nostrum Lightning

1555
00:56:51,788 --> 00:56:52,968
and

1556
00:56:52,968 --> 00:56:55,288
very impressive

1557
00:56:55,288 --> 00:56:56,328
I was blown away

1558
00:56:56,328 --> 00:56:57,448
by like how professional

1559
00:56:57,448 --> 00:56:58,408
this person was

1560
00:56:58,408 --> 00:56:59,248
and like how thoughtful.

1561
00:57:00,068 --> 00:57:01,468
And yeah, it just gave me, frankly,

1562
00:57:01,548 --> 00:57:03,348
a lot of confidence to like, you know,

1563
00:57:04,248 --> 00:57:06,408
like you and you to a certain extent as well,

1564
00:57:06,468 --> 00:57:07,508
like I'm pretty deep in Nostra,

1565
00:57:07,588 --> 00:57:08,608
but I'm still like every,

1566
00:57:08,928 --> 00:57:10,648
like, and this person was showing,

1567
00:57:10,808 --> 00:57:13,528
you know, a bunch of like new sites.

1568
00:57:13,528 --> 00:57:15,528
There's like a Nostra calendaring tool or app.

1569
00:57:15,628 --> 00:57:16,228
I didn't know that existed.

1570
00:57:16,328 --> 00:57:17,488
Like basically they're just like showing me

1571
00:57:17,488 --> 00:57:19,988
a ton of different apps I'd never heard of.

1572
00:57:21,288 --> 00:57:21,308
So.

1573
00:57:21,688 --> 00:57:22,028
That's great.

1574
00:57:22,348 --> 00:57:22,508
Yeah.

1575
00:57:22,668 --> 00:57:25,508
I mean, I think that event is just another example

1576
00:57:25,508 --> 00:57:26,628
of us trying to bridge the gap

1577
00:57:26,628 --> 00:57:28,568
Big Tech and Silicon Valley.

1578
00:57:29,248 --> 00:57:31,448
And it sounds like it brought in a new mix of people,

1579
00:57:31,608 --> 00:57:32,248
which is super cool.

1580
00:57:33,348 --> 00:57:34,688
Still a ways to go.

1581
00:57:34,808 --> 00:57:35,648
And we have a long...

1582
00:57:35,648 --> 00:57:38,488
But yeah, it's a good start.

1583
00:57:39,528 --> 00:57:42,248
Real quick, we are getting great audience engagement.

1584
00:57:42,428 --> 00:57:44,608
I just want to give them some love.

1585
00:57:45,348 --> 00:57:48,528
One comment I saw was someone said

1586
00:57:48,528 --> 00:57:51,468
they might be here or be visiting soon.

1587
00:57:51,648 --> 00:57:52,888
Can they help out with the merchants?

1588
00:57:52,888 --> 00:57:54,948
And I guess my response to that is like,

1589
00:57:54,948 --> 00:57:58,028
don't wait for a merchant guide from us

1590
00:57:58,028 --> 00:57:58,628
or anything like that.

1591
00:57:58,748 --> 00:58:01,268
Just go to merchants,

1592
00:58:01,348 --> 00:58:03,228
whether they're here in the Presidio or elsewhere,

1593
00:58:03,448 --> 00:58:05,308
and ask, do you accept Bitcoin?

1594
00:58:06,508 --> 00:58:07,368
That helps, right?

1595
00:58:07,428 --> 00:58:08,288
Because it plants a seed.

1596
00:58:08,808 --> 00:58:11,148
Because if we go in and talk to a local merchant

1597
00:58:11,148 --> 00:58:12,548
and give them the sales pitch,

1598
00:58:12,868 --> 00:58:13,788
some will say, sure,

1599
00:58:13,928 --> 00:58:14,908
and others will be like,

1600
00:58:15,048 --> 00:58:17,728
I don't have time or there's no demand.

1601
00:58:18,368 --> 00:58:21,028
But if they've heard from other customers,

1602
00:58:21,908 --> 00:58:23,068
Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin,

1603
00:58:23,348 --> 00:58:24,868
then it starts to build a...

1604
00:58:24,868 --> 00:58:28,808
an image in their head of like, oh, there's demand for this. It's real.

1605
00:58:29,228 --> 00:58:32,508
I should do it. So each and every one of us who

1606
00:58:32,508 --> 00:58:36,088
goes and asks that question, I think helps. Actually, which

1607
00:58:36,088 --> 00:58:40,828
usually when I ask that question, the response from the merchant

1608
00:58:40,828 --> 00:58:44,908
is like, you know, physical or really has no idea what I'm talking

1609
00:58:44,908 --> 00:58:48,928
about or like, it's just basically no, right?

1610
00:58:50,428 --> 00:58:51,828
But it's kind of a dumbfounded.

1611
00:58:51,828 --> 00:58:55,048
in Berlin, I went to a coffee shop.

1612
00:58:55,848 --> 00:58:56,968
One of my colleagues said,

1613
00:58:57,028 --> 00:58:58,128
oh, you got to go to this coffee shop.

1614
00:58:58,188 --> 00:58:59,228
They have an amazing pour over.

1615
00:58:59,368 --> 00:59:00,928
So I'm like, all right, it's local and pour over.

1616
00:59:00,988 --> 00:59:01,568
I was like, great.

1617
00:59:01,688 --> 00:59:04,068
So I go there and then I waited in line

1618
00:59:04,068 --> 00:59:05,528
and then I get there and it says cash only.

1619
00:59:05,708 --> 00:59:07,828
I didn't have any cash with me

1620
00:59:07,828 --> 00:59:10,628
because I just pay with Apple Pay and my phone.

1621
00:59:11,748 --> 00:59:13,708
So I thought I'd throw a Hail Mary

1622
00:59:13,708 --> 00:59:16,548
and ask if they accept Bitcoin

1623
00:59:16,548 --> 00:59:18,108
because I could pay with Bitcoin from my phone.

1624
00:59:19,328 --> 00:59:21,388
And well, the bad news is no,

1625
00:59:21,388 --> 00:59:23,348
but the good news

1626
00:59:23,348 --> 00:59:24,828
the shocking response

1627
00:59:24,828 --> 00:59:27,668
the shocking response though was the guy

1628
00:59:27,668 --> 00:59:29,728
enthusiastically

1629
00:59:29,728 --> 00:59:31,188
said soon

1630
00:59:31,188 --> 00:59:33,268
oh yeah

1631
00:59:33,268 --> 00:59:35,308
okay like he's like enthusiastic

1632
00:59:35,308 --> 00:59:37,508
he's like we don't right now but we're soon going

1633
00:59:37,508 --> 00:59:39,588
to accept bitcoin and he's like he was all

1634
00:59:39,588 --> 00:59:41,448
about it and then he told me all about it and they're like yeah

1635
00:59:41,448 --> 00:59:43,328
we need to improve the 5g in our space

1636
00:59:43,328 --> 00:59:45,408
to be able to do it I mean it was like

1637
00:59:45,408 --> 00:59:47,388
it was real it wasn't just like a

1638
00:59:47,388 --> 00:59:49,168
polite response or something it was real

1639
00:59:49,168 --> 00:59:52,108
so maybe assign things to come

1640
00:59:52,108 --> 00:59:52,528
I love it

1641
00:59:52,528 --> 00:59:53,688
I almost think as Bitcoiners

1642
00:59:53,688 --> 00:59:54,828
you could go to the places

1643
00:59:54,828 --> 00:59:55,948
that you already go

1644
00:59:55,948 --> 00:59:57,228
that you already have a habit

1645
00:59:57,228 --> 00:59:58,108
maybe some relationship

1646
00:59:58,108 --> 00:59:59,648
with the people behind the counter

1647
00:59:59,648 --> 01:00:00,068
and you can say

1648
01:00:00,068 --> 01:00:01,448
look I would like to do this

1649
01:00:01,448 --> 01:00:02,548
I would like to pay in Bitcoin

1650
01:00:02,548 --> 01:00:05,008
you know I'm a loyal customer already right

1651
01:00:05,008 --> 01:00:05,828
like I would

1652
01:00:05,828 --> 01:00:07,308
yeah I feel like

1653
01:00:07,308 --> 01:00:08,908
if you have places

1654
01:00:08,908 --> 01:00:09,688
that you show up

1655
01:00:09,688 --> 01:00:10,708
three times a week

1656
01:00:10,708 --> 01:00:12,128
like maybe Cafe RX or something

1657
01:00:12,128 --> 01:00:13,248
if you go there and tell them

1658
01:00:13,248 --> 01:00:14,748
that it's important to you

1659
01:00:14,748 --> 01:00:15,948
they will probably do this

1660
01:00:15,948 --> 01:00:17,568
we need to commit to each other

1661
01:00:17,568 --> 01:00:19,148
we need to start asking that question

1662
01:00:19,148 --> 01:00:20,628
when we go pay for stuff.

1663
01:00:20,628 --> 01:00:20,808
Let's do it together.

1664
01:00:21,108 --> 01:00:22,048
And people listening,

1665
01:00:22,208 --> 01:00:23,888
if you care about this stuff,

1666
01:00:24,548 --> 01:00:26,948
just even if he just does it once.

1667
01:00:27,148 --> 01:00:27,448
Yes.

1668
01:00:27,708 --> 01:00:28,648
I'm being out loud now.

1669
01:00:28,868 --> 01:00:30,248
Like we go to the farmer's market.

1670
01:00:30,348 --> 01:00:31,648
I was going to say farmer's markets are perfect.

1671
01:00:31,648 --> 01:00:32,928
Every week we go

1672
01:00:32,928 --> 01:00:34,588
and we spend hundreds of dollars

1673
01:00:34,588 --> 01:00:35,608
at the farmer's market

1674
01:00:35,608 --> 01:00:36,848
and everybody is like,

1675
01:00:36,928 --> 01:00:37,668
oh, can you do Venmo?

1676
01:00:37,748 --> 01:00:38,868
Can you do Zelle?

1677
01:00:38,928 --> 01:00:40,208
Because they all want to avoid the fees.

1678
01:00:40,388 --> 01:00:42,128
Like they're very, very sensitive to the fees.

1679
01:00:42,548 --> 01:00:44,128
But if we went to them and said,

1680
01:00:44,248 --> 01:00:45,788
oh, can I pay in Bitcoin?

1681
01:00:46,488 --> 01:00:48,288
Like I bet they don't get asked that too much.

1682
01:00:48,428 --> 01:00:48,628
Totally.

1683
01:00:49,148 --> 01:00:52,268
And that feels like the kind of, like you're probably talking to the decision maker.

1684
01:00:52,268 --> 01:00:53,048
Decision maker, exactly.

1685
01:00:53,048 --> 01:00:54,508
Or the kid of the decision maker.

1686
01:00:54,708 --> 01:00:59,408
One of the vendors at the San Rafael farmer's market, you said, does accept Bitcoin.

1687
01:00:59,468 --> 01:01:04,708
Yeah, it's kind of a punk underground, like, you know, juice manufacturer, you know, or something.

1688
01:01:05,128 --> 01:01:05,328
Yeah.

1689
01:01:05,708 --> 01:01:06,788
But it's only one.

1690
01:01:06,948 --> 01:01:08,628
And they also have like XMR or whatever.

1691
01:01:08,768 --> 01:01:10,788
They accept a bunch of other stuff too.

1692
01:01:10,988 --> 01:01:11,248
Nice.

1693
01:01:11,888 --> 01:01:14,248
But yeah, I thought it was nice to see the one.

1694
01:01:14,368 --> 01:01:17,188
But I feel like because we're going there all the time.

1695
01:01:17,628 --> 01:01:18,188
And you're spending.

1696
01:01:18,188 --> 01:01:19,548
and we're like

1697
01:01:19,548 --> 01:01:21,308
we have like a personal relationship

1698
01:01:21,308 --> 01:01:22,568
with the farmer's market

1699
01:01:22,568 --> 01:01:22,788
people

1700
01:01:22,788 --> 01:01:23,548
I feel like that's a good

1701
01:01:23,548 --> 01:01:24,508
are we committed

1702
01:01:24,508 --> 01:01:25,048
all this

1703
01:01:25,048 --> 01:01:26,308
to the next show

1704
01:01:26,308 --> 01:01:27,908
I'm going to report back

1705
01:01:27,908 --> 01:01:29,368
we have to report back

1706
01:01:29,368 --> 01:01:30,048
our experiences

1707
01:01:30,048 --> 01:01:31,228
and then maybe

1708
01:01:31,228 --> 01:01:31,848
a lot of motivate

1709
01:01:31,848 --> 01:01:32,768
motivate people

1710
01:01:32,768 --> 01:01:33,728
in the audience as well

1711
01:01:33,728 --> 01:01:34,288
maybe I'll come

1712
01:01:34,288 --> 01:01:35,428
we're going to just

1713
01:01:35,428 --> 01:01:36,448
spam CafeRx

1714
01:01:36,448 --> 01:01:37,028
at that point

1715
01:01:37,028 --> 01:01:37,868
it's just going to be like

1716
01:01:37,868 --> 01:01:39,048
alright we'll take your bit

1717
01:01:39,048 --> 01:01:43,188
but I

1718
01:01:43,188 --> 01:01:45,648
poor lady

1719
01:01:45,648 --> 01:01:46,348
I do think

1720
01:01:46,348 --> 01:01:48,068
your point on farmer's markets

1721
01:01:48,068 --> 01:01:50,248
is spot on because like you said, they're decision makers.

1722
01:01:51,348 --> 01:01:52,928
But also, I mean, I was shocked.

1723
01:01:53,028 --> 01:01:56,268
I mean, I told you guys, I kind of accidentally converted my honey dealer, which is effectively

1724
01:01:56,268 --> 01:01:57,348
a farmer's market kind of guy.

1725
01:01:57,988 --> 01:02:00,908
And, you know, he was super excited.

1726
01:02:01,548 --> 01:02:05,928
And now I will say you have to be very, one note of caution to everyone is you need to

1727
01:02:05,928 --> 01:02:10,348
be like very like, I don't know what the right word is, careful maybe in how you describe

1728
01:02:10,348 --> 01:02:10,668
this to people.

1729
01:02:10,728 --> 01:02:14,128
Because at one point, you know, he was like, he was like, so let me get this.

1730
01:02:14,288 --> 01:02:15,448
He's like, I want to make sure I understand this, right?

1731
01:02:15,448 --> 01:02:16,648
He's like, this only goes up, right?

1732
01:02:16,668 --> 01:02:17,208
And I was like, okay.

1733
01:02:18,068 --> 01:02:19,148
We need a...

1734
01:02:19,148 --> 01:02:19,528
We need...

1735
01:02:19,528 --> 01:02:19,848
Exactly.

1736
01:02:20,148 --> 01:02:21,108
I was like, we need a...

1737
01:02:21,108 --> 01:02:22,088
What's your time frame?

1738
01:02:22,288 --> 01:02:22,608
Exactly.

1739
01:02:22,828 --> 01:02:24,048
I was like, how long you got, dude?

1740
01:02:25,348 --> 01:02:25,668
Forever.

1741
01:02:26,288 --> 01:02:26,828
Yeah, exactly.

1742
01:02:27,688 --> 01:02:28,808
Have you heard of the Federal Reserve?

1743
01:02:31,808 --> 01:02:32,428
Ron Paul.

1744
01:02:32,428 --> 01:02:36,108
So we talked a little bit about the NOSA event.

1745
01:02:36,528 --> 01:02:38,428
I want the EFF event that...

1746
01:02:38,428 --> 01:02:39,908
Or it was a Freedom of the Press event,

1747
01:02:40,008 --> 01:02:43,568
which is an organization that I think

1748
01:02:43,568 --> 01:02:44,748
sort of spun out of EFF.

1749
01:02:45,088 --> 01:02:46,508
Alex and I went to that last night.

1750
01:02:46,508 --> 01:02:49,688
I think it's important

1751
01:02:49,688 --> 01:02:50,588
again this whole

1752
01:02:50,588 --> 01:02:51,368
bridging the gap

1753
01:02:51,368 --> 01:02:52,228
between Silicon Valley

1754
01:02:52,228 --> 01:02:53,348
and Bitcoin

1755
01:02:53,348 --> 01:02:55,568
not just tech companies

1756
01:02:55,568 --> 01:02:56,728
but also we've talked about

1757
01:02:56,728 --> 01:02:57,828
universities before

1758
01:02:57,828 --> 01:02:59,188
and I think organizations

1759
01:02:59,188 --> 01:03:00,788
like EFF make a lot of sense too

1760
01:03:00,788 --> 01:03:02,648
like if you just look at

1761
01:03:02,648 --> 01:03:03,688
their charter

1762
01:03:03,688 --> 01:03:04,488
their mission

1763
01:03:04,488 --> 01:03:06,148
their values

1764
01:03:06,148 --> 01:03:07,908
it just screams

1765
01:03:07,908 --> 01:03:09,488
Bitcoin to us

1766
01:03:09,488 --> 01:03:10,308
but it doesn't

1767
01:03:10,308 --> 01:03:11,208
but it doesn't scream

1768
01:03:11,208 --> 01:03:12,108
Bitcoin to them

1769
01:03:12,108 --> 01:03:12,648
historically

1770
01:03:12,648 --> 01:03:13,648
so

1771
01:03:13,648 --> 01:03:15,468
it just seemed like

1772
01:03:15,468 --> 01:03:18,248
it'll be challenging but like as a clear

1773
01:03:18,248 --> 01:03:19,348
opportunity.

1774
01:03:20,188 --> 01:03:22,248
So we had invited folks from

1775
01:03:22,248 --> 01:03:24,288
EFF to our launch event here

1776
01:03:24,288 --> 01:03:26,008
and one of them

1777
01:03:26,008 --> 01:03:27,788
attended so that was awesome.

1778
01:03:27,788 --> 01:03:28,328
I didn't know that.

1779
01:03:28,548 --> 01:03:30,688
My understanding of like

1780
01:03:30,688 --> 01:03:32,488
why are they not into Bitcoin?

1781
01:03:33,328 --> 01:03:34,228
I don't know if I had the full

1782
01:03:34,228 --> 01:03:35,068
crypto.

1783
01:03:35,708 --> 01:03:37,848
Well this is my

1784
01:03:37,848 --> 01:03:40,088
I probably have a partial view

1785
01:03:40,088 --> 01:03:42,028
but my understanding is that they've been

1786
01:03:42,028 --> 01:03:44,008
they're not into crypto

1787
01:03:44,008 --> 01:03:45,688
they've been inundated with crypto.

1788
01:03:45,848 --> 01:03:46,028
That's right.

1789
01:03:46,088 --> 01:03:46,328
I mean, like,

1790
01:03:46,328 --> 01:03:46,928
they hate crypto.

1791
01:03:47,248 --> 01:03:47,428
Right.

1792
01:03:47,548 --> 01:03:49,028
And so they think of the scam.

1793
01:03:49,388 --> 01:03:49,548
Right.

1794
01:03:49,868 --> 01:03:52,388
And then Bitcoin gets lumped in with that.

1795
01:03:53,288 --> 01:03:53,868
So I think...

1796
01:03:53,868 --> 01:03:55,068
Well, no, one of them's like a board member

1797
01:03:55,068 --> 01:03:55,888
of Filecoin, right?

1798
01:03:56,508 --> 01:03:56,768
Ooh.

1799
01:03:57,188 --> 01:04:00,708
Yeah, there's a lot of Filecoin love last night.

1800
01:04:00,828 --> 01:04:01,148
Yeah.

1801
01:04:01,328 --> 01:04:02,508
That Alex and I noticed.

1802
01:04:02,588 --> 01:04:04,528
Archive also has, like, Filecoin sponsoring.

1803
01:04:04,628 --> 01:04:05,028
And actually,

1804
01:04:05,308 --> 01:04:07,048
like, a guy I worked at the Google

1805
01:04:07,048 --> 01:04:08,368
15 plus years ago,

1806
01:04:08,528 --> 01:04:10,768
a really great policy person,

1807
01:04:10,848 --> 01:04:11,548
I know he went,

1808
01:04:12,008 --> 01:04:13,708
like, I think he's involved with Filecoin as well.

1809
01:04:13,708 --> 01:04:21,328
But I mean, what I suspect there is they have money to pay people.

1810
01:04:21,448 --> 01:04:21,988
And they give it away.

1811
01:04:22,588 --> 01:04:26,668
And the high-level story sounds good.

1812
01:04:27,068 --> 01:04:33,688
Like, don't we all want decentralized data storage that persists?

1813
01:04:33,828 --> 01:04:36,288
Especially if we don't have to spam the Bitcoin blockchain, right?

1814
01:04:36,488 --> 01:04:38,108
So, you know, store it elsewhere.

1815
01:04:38,848 --> 01:04:40,028
It sounds really good.

1816
01:04:40,028 --> 01:04:47,428
And actually, the technology in Filecoin, from a pure technology standpoint, is interesting and compelling.

1817
01:04:47,688 --> 01:04:51,768
But if you look at the whole system, it's hard to see how it's going to work out, right?

1818
01:04:52,388 --> 01:04:54,988
But I think that's a next-level analysis.

1819
01:04:55,688 --> 01:05:01,148
So if you're not technical or you don't spend a whole lot of time on it, I think it's easy to be like, oh, this makes a lot of sense.

1820
01:05:01,208 --> 01:05:06,268
I think also so many of these ideas just get to be popular for one reason or another.

1821
01:05:06,268 --> 01:05:08,108
or maybe it comes from some voice that's trusted

1822
01:05:08,108 --> 01:05:09,808
for some reason or another.

1823
01:05:09,968 --> 01:05:10,828
And then it's just like,

1824
01:05:10,928 --> 01:05:12,748
once everybody's talking about it, it feels normal.

1825
01:05:13,208 --> 01:05:15,008
So you kind of, you sort of stop asking questions

1826
01:05:15,008 --> 01:05:15,808
and just, you know.

1827
01:05:16,208 --> 01:05:17,928
But in any case, I think in general,

1828
01:05:18,488 --> 01:05:20,588
EFF inundated with scams,

1829
01:05:20,848 --> 01:05:21,728
Bitcoin's been lumped in.

1830
01:05:21,808 --> 01:05:24,608
So I think it's important that they meet real human beings.

1831
01:05:25,048 --> 01:05:25,168
Yeah.

1832
01:05:25,228 --> 01:05:26,328
We have a physical space here,

1833
01:05:26,388 --> 01:05:27,128
the presidia of Bitcoin.

1834
01:05:27,388 --> 01:05:29,588
And over time, they'll see,

1835
01:05:29,708 --> 01:05:33,088
oh, these guys aren't scammy.

1836
01:05:33,088 --> 01:05:35,468
they're also not just like

1837
01:05:35,468 --> 01:05:37,308
greedy trying to make money

1838
01:05:37,308 --> 01:05:38,768
that's the only focus

1839
01:05:38,768 --> 01:05:40,768
we actually care about freedom money

1840
01:05:40,768 --> 01:05:41,568
principles

1841
01:05:41,568 --> 01:05:44,228
and all the things they care about with EFF

1842
01:05:44,228 --> 01:05:46,288
we deeply care about too

1843
01:05:46,288 --> 01:05:48,328
and put those words into action

1844
01:05:48,328 --> 01:05:50,088
so hopefully they see that over time

1845
01:05:50,088 --> 01:05:50,968
and that helps

1846
01:05:50,968 --> 01:05:54,548
yeah so I think Alex and I

1847
01:05:54,548 --> 01:05:55,608
had a good time

1848
01:05:55,608 --> 01:05:56,468
glad we went to that event

1849
01:05:56,468 --> 01:05:59,028
and hopefully there's more connections in the future

1850
01:05:59,028 --> 01:06:00,868
yeah I wonder if there's an opportunity to do

1851
01:06:00,868 --> 01:06:02,548
have them co-sponsor an event here

1852
01:06:02,548 --> 01:06:03,268
or something like that.

1853
01:06:03,588 --> 01:06:03,788
Potentially.

1854
01:06:04,228 --> 01:06:05,808
Several of them are going to be involved

1855
01:06:05,808 --> 01:06:07,928
with the HRF,

1856
01:06:08,008 --> 01:06:10,168
like Alex has said's HRF AI event,

1857
01:06:10,248 --> 01:06:12,348
which a small part of it's going to be hosted here

1858
01:06:12,348 --> 01:06:12,908
at Presidio Bitcoin,

1859
01:06:13,148 --> 01:06:13,968
and the rest of it,

1860
01:06:14,048 --> 01:06:15,028
it's going to be in the Presidio.

1861
01:06:15,168 --> 01:06:16,868
So I think there'll be some overlap there as well.

1862
01:06:18,568 --> 01:06:20,908
And we also met an engineer there

1863
01:06:20,908 --> 01:06:23,488
who had worked at EFF for 20 years,

1864
01:06:23,888 --> 01:06:27,748
and he just got a job at a Bitcoin company.

1865
01:06:28,908 --> 01:06:29,928
Lives in San Francisco.

1866
01:06:30,228 --> 01:06:31,508
Might even become a member here.

1867
01:06:31,908 --> 01:06:32,228
Great.

1868
01:06:32,228 --> 01:06:38,268
We might have recruited a member, but he's entering the Bitcoin space.

1869
01:06:38,548 --> 01:06:44,448
So we have at least two Bitcoin advocates that are associated with EFF.

1870
01:06:44,608 --> 01:06:44,988
I love it.

1871
01:06:45,288 --> 01:06:45,848
That's awesome.

1872
01:06:46,228 --> 01:06:46,908
We'll throw that over time.

1873
01:06:47,008 --> 01:06:51,288
And again, just to kind of hammer that same point home, because I see someone else saying there, yeah, I'm stealing that.

1874
01:06:51,348 --> 01:06:52,688
No one hates crypto more than me.

1875
01:06:52,948 --> 01:06:55,128
It's not that I just like being angry.

1876
01:06:55,128 --> 01:07:01,188
I don't want to hate anyone or anything, but it's just the same story everywhere.

1877
01:07:01,188 --> 01:07:03,608
It's just, it's so frustrating when it's like,

1878
01:07:03,648 --> 01:07:05,048
you don't understand we're really trying to build

1879
01:07:05,048 --> 01:07:07,028
a new TCP IP for value.

1880
01:07:07,488 --> 01:07:08,988
You know, we're looking at things like Nostre.

1881
01:07:09,128 --> 01:07:11,088
Like, I think another thing that you should hit those guys with,

1882
01:07:11,188 --> 01:07:12,388
like people EFF is Nostre,

1883
01:07:12,708 --> 01:07:14,328
because that's also very like,

1884
01:07:14,428 --> 01:07:15,748
there's no money, there's no token,

1885
01:07:16,028 --> 01:07:18,348
like it's not, there's literally no way

1886
01:07:18,348 --> 01:07:19,688
you could pump and dump this thing.

1887
01:07:20,128 --> 01:07:21,528
It's just your values.

1888
01:07:21,668 --> 01:07:21,928
I agree.

1889
01:07:22,268 --> 01:07:25,328
I will say one thing that was a little surprising to me,

1890
01:07:26,028 --> 01:07:28,208
I brought up, there's like a Q&A session

1891
01:07:28,208 --> 01:07:29,788
and I brought up chat control.

1892
01:07:31,188 --> 01:07:31,928
and then I

1893
01:07:31,928 --> 01:07:32,468
Chat Control?

1894
01:07:32,748 --> 01:07:33,208
Yeah, what's that?

1895
01:07:33,488 --> 01:07:33,628
Yeah.

1896
01:07:34,168 --> 01:07:34,568
What?

1897
01:07:34,668 --> 01:07:35,168
What's Chat Control?

1898
01:07:35,188 --> 01:07:35,808
What's Chat Control?

1899
01:07:36,008 --> 01:07:37,088
It's just like last night.

1900
01:07:39,568 --> 01:07:41,548
I guess we should

1901
01:07:41,548 --> 01:07:42,248
need to talk about it

1902
01:07:42,248 --> 01:07:42,588
on the show.

1903
01:07:42,768 --> 01:07:43,448
You guys don't even know

1904
01:07:43,448 --> 01:07:43,808
what it is?

1905
01:07:43,808 --> 01:07:44,388
Here we are.

1906
01:07:44,508 --> 01:07:45,068
In Germany where they're

1907
01:07:45,068 --> 01:07:45,508
trying to...

1908
01:07:45,508 --> 01:07:46,728
Yeah, so there's

1909
01:07:46,728 --> 01:07:47,808
an EU initiative.

1910
01:07:48,328 --> 01:07:49,608
I believe it's the second time

1911
01:07:49,608 --> 01:07:50,788
they tried to push it through

1912
01:07:50,788 --> 01:07:51,528
but Chat Control

1913
01:07:51,528 --> 01:07:54,468
is basically ending

1914
01:07:54,468 --> 01:07:56,668
end-to-end encryption

1915
01:07:56,668 --> 01:07:57,908
messaging apps

1916
01:07:57,908 --> 01:07:59,188
because they would...

1917
01:07:59,188 --> 01:07:59,308
What?

1918
01:07:59,468 --> 01:08:00,588
Remember like...

1919
01:08:00,588 --> 01:08:00,788
Yeah.

1920
01:08:01,188 --> 01:08:01,588
Wow.

1921
01:08:01,888 --> 01:08:02,548
Remember like...

1922
01:08:02,548 --> 01:08:03,068
Who's proposing this?

1923
01:08:03,148 --> 01:08:03,868
This is EU.

1924
01:08:04,048 --> 01:08:05,068
EU, yeah, of course.

1925
01:08:05,488 --> 01:08:09,248
Or like, you know, countries in Europe that make up the EU.

1926
01:08:10,548 --> 01:08:12,548
So I think it was four years ago,

1927
01:08:12,808 --> 01:08:15,748
Apple implemented a solution

1928
01:08:15,748 --> 01:08:17,728
which would just scan the photos on your phone

1929
01:08:17,728 --> 01:08:19,608
and run them through a filter

1930
01:08:19,608 --> 01:08:22,148
to match against like a CSAM database.

1931
01:08:22,648 --> 01:08:26,408
And if it matched, then they'd alert, you know,

1932
01:08:26,448 --> 01:08:28,428
the feds and then you'd get in trouble.

1933
01:08:28,428 --> 01:08:30,628
but Apple

1934
01:08:30,628 --> 01:08:33,568
didn't know what the filters were

1935
01:08:33,568 --> 01:08:35,608
so the customers

1936
01:08:35,608 --> 01:08:37,888
don't know what's in that database

1937
01:08:37,888 --> 01:08:39,708
Apple

1938
01:08:39,708 --> 01:08:40,968
doesn't know what's in that database

1939
01:08:40,968 --> 01:08:42,868
just some other third party provider

1940
01:08:42,868 --> 01:08:45,488
or government body or something

1941
01:08:45,488 --> 01:08:47,268
knows what's in that database

1942
01:08:47,268 --> 01:08:49,668
and we can all agree that CSAM's horrible

1943
01:08:49,668 --> 01:08:51,168
and horrific but the

1944
01:08:51,168 --> 01:08:52,848
concern is slippery slope

1945
01:08:52,848 --> 01:08:55,788
once that infrastructure

1946
01:08:55,788 --> 01:08:57,748
is in place and all our phones

1947
01:08:57,748 --> 01:09:00,088
are being surveilled and all our photos are being looked at.

1948
01:09:00,368 --> 01:09:01,208
And it's not transparent.

1949
01:09:01,268 --> 01:09:02,108
Other, other is.

1950
01:09:02,188 --> 01:09:02,928
And it's not transparent.

1951
01:09:03,088 --> 01:09:05,648
So then other like things are added to the list.

1952
01:09:05,648 --> 01:09:11,588
So Apple implemented that, announced it, and then faced a lot of criticism, pulled it back.

1953
01:09:11,708 --> 01:09:12,268
Thank God.

1954
01:09:13,008 --> 01:09:14,868
But chat control is similar.

1955
01:09:15,508 --> 01:09:21,188
Basically, everything, all your messages and everything, your like signal would be scanned

1956
01:09:21,188 --> 01:09:22,288
by the government.

1957
01:09:23,048 --> 01:09:25,248
And so it's just not private.

1958
01:09:25,388 --> 01:09:26,168
It's not encrypted.

1959
01:09:26,168 --> 01:09:28,508
this is a proposal right now

1960
01:09:28,508 --> 01:09:28,948
or a

1961
01:09:28,948 --> 01:09:29,908
yeah but there's concern

1962
01:09:29,908 --> 01:09:30,288
so

1963
01:09:30,288 --> 01:09:32,848
like Germany has been

1964
01:09:32,848 --> 01:09:33,848
against it

1965
01:09:33,848 --> 01:09:35,108
historically

1966
01:09:35,108 --> 01:09:35,708
and they

1967
01:09:35,708 --> 01:09:37,968
I'm not an expert on EU governance

1968
01:09:37,968 --> 01:09:39,448
but basically if Germany says no

1969
01:09:39,448 --> 01:09:40,808
this isn't going anywhere

1970
01:09:40,808 --> 01:09:41,228
right

1971
01:09:41,228 --> 01:09:42,788
but when I was in

1972
01:09:42,788 --> 01:09:43,448
when I was in

1973
01:09:43,448 --> 01:09:44,908
when I was in

1974
01:09:44,908 --> 01:09:46,488
when I was in Germany

1975
01:09:46,488 --> 01:09:47,448
they're funding everyone else

1976
01:09:47,448 --> 01:09:48,828
there was a lot of

1977
01:09:48,828 --> 01:09:50,468
concern raised about this

1978
01:09:50,468 --> 01:09:51,408
because there are rumors

1979
01:09:51,408 --> 01:09:53,148
that Germany is about ready to flip

1980
01:09:53,148 --> 01:09:53,848
and if they flipped

1981
01:09:53,848 --> 01:10:10,142
it would pass And then like I mean you guys use Signal right I use it to communicate with a lot of people in Europe we would no longer be able to do that And it would that Or it depends If they pass that well then then you know then an organization like Signal would

1982
01:10:10,142 --> 01:10:18,861
have to choose. Do we just ignore and take the legal risks and heat or remove Signal from Europe

1983
01:10:18,861 --> 01:10:21,082
or put a backdoor in.

1984
01:10:21,301 --> 01:10:22,861
Or put a backdoor in.

1985
01:10:23,061 --> 01:10:24,582
I mean, comply, right?

1986
01:10:24,961 --> 01:10:26,502
Those would be their choices.

1987
01:10:26,821 --> 01:10:29,061
Is it being proposed around like a CSAM issue

1988
01:10:29,061 --> 01:10:30,281
or is it just general?

1989
01:10:30,542 --> 01:10:31,702
Okay, same kind of.

1990
01:10:31,801 --> 01:10:32,381
And to be clear,

1991
01:10:32,441 --> 01:10:33,761
those are actually two different options.

1992
01:10:33,861 --> 01:10:35,881
They could comply publicly

1993
01:10:35,881 --> 01:10:37,721
or they could say we're not going to do it

1994
01:10:37,721 --> 01:10:38,561
and then put a backdoor in.

1995
01:10:40,702 --> 01:10:41,781
But they could lie.

1996
01:10:42,142 --> 01:10:42,261
Yeah.

1997
01:10:43,461 --> 01:10:44,542
Lie and comply.

1998
01:10:45,221 --> 01:10:48,162
So like Meredith Whitaker from Signal

1999
01:10:48,162 --> 01:10:49,901
was in Germany at the same time.

2000
01:10:51,042 --> 01:10:52,162
I mean, obviously, it was like

2001
01:10:52,162 --> 01:10:54,142
not quite

2002
01:10:54,142 --> 01:10:55,941
existential to Signal, but kind of.

2003
01:10:57,642 --> 01:10:58,142
Did you see,

2004
01:10:58,241 --> 01:10:59,341
by the way, she's on Nostrad now?

2005
01:11:00,221 --> 01:11:02,162
I didn't see that. So this is big. This is one of the

2006
01:11:02,162 --> 01:11:04,061
other things that came out of Nostrad devs is we were on Nostrad.

2007
01:11:04,202 --> 01:11:06,061
And shout out Artur. And

2008
01:11:06,061 --> 01:11:08,002
one of the things that shows on the front page is

2009
01:11:08,002 --> 01:11:09,861
who's trending is the biggest follows.

2010
01:11:10,261 --> 01:11:11,602
She was number two. That's great.

2011
01:11:12,241 --> 01:11:14,061
So my understanding is Germany

2012
01:11:14,061 --> 01:11:16,082
decided to vote no or not

2013
01:11:16,082 --> 01:11:18,102
support it. So I don't think it's going to pass.

2014
01:11:18,162 --> 01:11:19,901
But, you know, it's only a matter of time.

2015
01:11:19,901 --> 01:11:26,801
Like, when Germany has a change in who's in charge of the country, then that could change.

2016
01:11:26,921 --> 01:11:30,961
You said that's likely happening soon, or I don't follow German politics much.

2017
01:11:31,561 --> 01:11:32,441
I didn't say that.

2018
01:11:32,521 --> 01:11:32,841
Oh, okay.

2019
01:11:34,381 --> 01:11:37,642
Just if it were to happen, it's always a possibility.

2020
01:11:38,481 --> 01:11:42,341
Well, I mean, people don't live forever, so there'll definitely be new people in charge.

2021
01:11:42,481 --> 01:11:42,941
I don't know when.

2022
01:11:42,941 --> 01:11:53,981
My understanding, I mean, this is maybe decades old, but my understanding is that Germany is maybe like the most privacy sensitive or conscious country that I know of that I could point to.

2023
01:11:53,981 --> 01:12:00,102
Yeah, but well, it sounds like that remains true in this case, but like it might not remain true forever.

2024
01:12:00,301 --> 01:12:07,202
It just boggles my mind that any country and any country's citizenry thinks this is a good idea.

2025
01:12:07,521 --> 01:12:09,202
I just literally don't understand that at all.

2026
01:12:09,861 --> 01:12:12,622
And I mean, well, it seems like very simple minded.

2027
01:12:12,941 --> 01:12:14,361
if you're sold on like,

2028
01:12:14,461 --> 01:12:16,702
let's stop CSAM, period,

2029
01:12:17,182 --> 01:12:19,321
well, then everyone's going to say yes,

2030
01:12:19,561 --> 01:12:21,221
but let's think a little bit deeper

2031
01:12:21,221 --> 01:12:22,441
about these issues, right?

2032
01:12:22,481 --> 01:12:24,341
And how to like handle them

2033
01:12:24,341 --> 01:12:25,002
and address them.

2034
01:12:25,582 --> 01:12:27,142
So anyway,

2035
01:12:27,321 --> 01:12:28,502
well, you guys didn't know about it either,

2036
01:12:28,582 --> 01:12:30,221
but I was surprised that it seemed like

2037
01:12:30,221 --> 01:12:31,561
no one at this event knew about it.

2038
01:12:31,761 --> 01:12:33,281
That's even more alarming to me.

2039
01:12:33,381 --> 01:12:34,721
Yeah, EFS is all they do.

2040
01:12:35,142 --> 01:12:36,461
It's more, well,

2041
01:12:36,561 --> 01:12:37,401
it sounds like at least,

2042
01:12:37,642 --> 01:12:38,981
it sounds like it's,

2043
01:12:38,981 --> 01:12:40,421
at least Freedom of Press,

2044
01:12:40,521 --> 01:12:41,662
it's like US-centric.

2045
01:12:41,662 --> 01:12:46,761
so not only is this issue alarming to me

2046
01:12:46,761 --> 01:12:48,042
but you guys aren't even aware of it

2047
01:12:48,042 --> 01:12:48,981
they're not aware of it

2048
01:12:48,981 --> 01:12:52,082
so like the people that should be aware of it

2049
01:12:52,082 --> 01:12:52,881
aren't even aware of it

2050
01:12:52,881 --> 01:12:54,561
so that's even more alarming to me

2051
01:12:54,561 --> 01:12:56,981
like no wonder this stuff is going to be rammed through

2052
01:12:56,981 --> 01:12:58,241
because there's no like

2053
01:12:58,241 --> 01:12:59,142
I mean I guess Meredith

2054
01:12:59,142 --> 01:13:00,421
we've got Meredith over there

2055
01:13:00,421 --> 01:13:03,122
but yeah so that was

2056
01:13:03,122 --> 01:13:05,061
that was

2057
01:13:05,061 --> 01:13:06,721
I was surprised

2058
01:13:06,721 --> 01:13:08,502
I thought that was going to be like

2059
01:13:08,502 --> 01:13:11,381
a topic of conversation last night

2060
01:13:11,381 --> 01:13:13,202
and turns out no one knew anything about it.

2061
01:13:14,142 --> 01:13:14,781
Disappointing.

2062
01:13:15,702 --> 01:13:16,861
What's the BitChat story?

2063
01:13:17,002 --> 01:13:19,841
Any BitChat activity in the Berlin trip?

2064
01:13:21,341 --> 01:13:21,821
No.

2065
01:13:21,821 --> 01:13:24,021
Conference, BTC++, it feels like.

2066
01:13:24,341 --> 01:13:24,961
Sadly, no.

2067
01:13:25,182 --> 01:13:25,481
Seriously?

2068
01:13:25,761 --> 01:13:26,461
BTC++?

2069
01:13:27,261 --> 01:13:29,602
Did you try it and just didn't find anybody around?

2070
01:13:30,082 --> 01:13:30,321
Yeah.

2071
01:13:30,881 --> 01:13:31,281
Nope.

2072
01:13:31,901 --> 01:13:32,142
Okay.

2073
01:13:32,401 --> 01:13:32,961
I'm shocked.

2074
01:13:34,361 --> 01:13:35,602
But what's interesting,

2075
01:13:35,741 --> 01:13:36,861
I mean, with the structure of chat control,

2076
01:13:37,082 --> 01:13:40,301
would it apply to something like BitChat, right?

2077
01:13:40,401 --> 01:13:40,542
Yeah.

2078
01:13:41,142 --> 01:13:42,721
It's peer-to-peer, so how can they enforce it?

2079
01:13:42,981 --> 01:13:44,542
Well, it's not in the App Store.

2080
01:13:45,401 --> 01:13:47,381
They enforce it, but you can't install it on your phone.

2081
01:13:47,682 --> 01:13:49,441
And Google just changed their App Store policy

2082
01:13:49,441 --> 01:13:51,921
to be more like Apple's where they don't allow side-loading.

2083
01:13:52,142 --> 01:13:53,182
They don't allow side-loading now?

2084
01:13:53,561 --> 01:13:54,461
I missed that.

2085
01:13:55,002 --> 01:13:56,241
Yeah, that was like a few weeks ago.

2086
01:13:56,261 --> 01:13:57,542
Is that proposed or it already happened?

2087
01:13:58,521 --> 01:14:00,861
I think they decided it, but I don't know if it's already happened.

2088
01:14:00,881 --> 01:14:01,741
That's a big deal.

2089
01:14:02,082 --> 01:14:02,261
Yeah.

2090
01:14:02,642 --> 01:14:04,622
Man, it really does kind of feel like, to your point,

2091
01:14:04,622 --> 01:14:06,721
like the Panopticon is closing in fast.

2092
01:14:07,061 --> 01:14:09,142
So we can develop these great apps,

2093
01:14:09,142 --> 01:14:12,102
but people can't install them.

2094
01:14:12,321 --> 01:14:13,002
This sucks.

2095
01:14:14,381 --> 01:14:17,441
We're going to be scanning our eyeballs soon.

2096
01:14:20,182 --> 01:14:21,622
You want to talk about Type 1 Summit?

2097
01:14:21,821 --> 01:14:22,082
Yeah.

2098
01:14:22,281 --> 01:14:22,881
What do we have?

2099
01:14:22,981 --> 01:14:24,102
We have 15 minutes left?

2100
01:14:24,241 --> 01:14:25,642
On a positive note,

2101
01:14:25,801 --> 01:14:26,642
and perhaps one of the reasons

2102
01:14:26,642 --> 01:14:28,142
I am less informed than Steve.

2103
01:14:29,301 --> 01:14:29,781
You're informed.

2104
01:14:29,941 --> 01:14:31,082
Max is busy.

2105
01:14:31,481 --> 01:14:32,122
I actually haven't.

2106
01:14:32,162 --> 01:14:33,042
Inform about other things.

2107
01:14:33,102 --> 01:14:33,841
I've been shocked,

2108
01:14:33,941 --> 01:14:35,361
shockingly busy the last couple weeks.

2109
01:14:36,201 --> 01:14:37,582
And shout out to the homie Alex.

2110
01:14:37,582 --> 01:14:39,021
The second shout out of one show.

2111
01:14:39,021 --> 01:14:40,502
He's been helping a ton.

2112
01:14:40,602 --> 01:14:42,361
We've been hustling to get this thing together.

2113
01:14:42,701 --> 01:14:46,801
So Type One Summit, we have a whole episode on this you guys can go and listen to.

2114
01:14:46,901 --> 01:14:56,261
But the thesis is we need to build a new grid because we have the old grids are an order

2115
01:14:56,261 --> 01:14:58,002
of magnitude at least too small.

2116
01:14:58,602 --> 01:15:03,182
And AI demand and other demand from things like quantum computing, electric vehicles,

2117
01:15:03,881 --> 01:15:07,142
electric heat pumps, everything is going to require just too much.

2118
01:15:07,142 --> 01:15:09,901
So Datapoint, Texas grid, 80 gigawatts peak load,

2119
01:15:10,381 --> 01:15:12,042
and there's about double that asking,

2120
01:15:12,162 --> 01:15:13,061
or probably more now,

2121
01:15:13,142 --> 01:15:14,761
asking to get built for data centers.

2122
01:15:15,122 --> 01:15:16,301
There's no way the grid can take it.

2123
01:15:16,542 --> 01:15:18,002
How do we get to terawatt scale grids?

2124
01:15:18,542 --> 01:15:21,381
One of my crazy takes is going to be solar and storage.

2125
01:15:22,162 --> 01:15:23,602
That's something we'll debate at the show.

2126
01:15:24,281 --> 01:15:25,741
Anyways, it's going to be a ton of fun.

2127
01:15:25,841 --> 01:15:28,122
So we've been really hustling getting this thing together.

2128
01:15:28,122 --> 01:15:30,361
You can check out TypeOneNumberOne,

2129
01:15:30,582 --> 01:15:31,961
typeonesummit.org,

2130
01:15:32,042 --> 01:15:33,381
and see a bunch of the folks that are coming.

2131
01:15:34,201 --> 01:15:35,102
Is the one an I?

2132
01:15:35,642 --> 01:15:35,961
No.

2133
01:15:36,542 --> 01:15:37,801
I use the one as an I,

2134
01:15:37,841 --> 01:15:38,682
but on the URL,

2135
01:15:39,261 --> 01:15:40,142
it's the number one.

2136
01:15:40,821 --> 01:15:41,582
So anyways.

2137
01:15:41,901 --> 01:15:42,481
Thought I asked.

2138
01:15:42,542 --> 01:15:43,042
Yeah, exactly.

2139
01:15:43,481 --> 01:15:43,741
Now you know.

2140
01:15:44,082 --> 01:15:44,642
But you can see

2141
01:15:44,642 --> 01:15:45,582
we have an incredible group

2142
01:15:45,582 --> 01:15:46,102
coming together.

2143
01:15:46,901 --> 01:15:48,241
And I mean,

2144
01:15:48,261 --> 01:15:49,042
on the one hand,

2145
01:15:49,162 --> 01:15:49,981
it's a bit of a challenge

2146
01:15:49,981 --> 01:15:50,622
because it looks like

2147
01:15:50,622 --> 01:15:51,401
we're going to radically

2148
01:15:51,401 --> 01:15:52,542
oversubscribe to this thing.

2149
01:15:52,841 --> 01:15:53,602
If you're still interested in coming,

2150
01:15:53,682 --> 01:15:54,981
you should still apply.

2151
01:15:55,222 --> 01:15:56,801
But full disclosure,

2152
01:15:57,061 --> 01:15:57,801
it's going to be tough

2153
01:15:57,801 --> 01:15:58,921
to fit everyone in here.

2154
01:15:58,921 --> 01:16:00,682
Your original vision

2155
01:16:00,682 --> 01:16:01,561
was intimate,

2156
01:16:01,741 --> 01:16:02,701
like 20 people or something.

2157
01:16:02,781 --> 01:16:03,381
It was.

2158
01:16:03,741 --> 01:16:04,901
Where are we at now, Max?

2159
01:16:04,901 --> 01:16:05,441
I don't know.

2160
01:16:05,682 --> 01:16:06,502
You'll have to ask Alex.

2161
01:16:07,341 --> 01:16:08,461
He's running the...

2162
01:16:08,461 --> 01:16:12,142
Max's enthusiasm and energy

2163
01:16:12,142 --> 01:16:13,381
about the Energy Summit.

2164
01:16:13,381 --> 01:16:16,182
It is starting to spin out of control.

2165
01:16:17,841 --> 01:16:19,222
I mean, we're a month away

2166
01:16:19,222 --> 01:16:19,861
and it's just like, shit,

2167
01:16:20,002 --> 01:16:21,002
we really can't fit everyone.

2168
01:16:22,582 --> 01:16:24,401
We're looking at potentially bigger venues.

2169
01:16:24,542 --> 01:16:25,682
Maybe we'll get it, maybe we won't.

2170
01:16:26,741 --> 01:16:28,441
Hold tight if you haven't heard back from us.

2171
01:16:29,341 --> 01:16:30,921
But if you are deep in this industry,

2172
01:16:31,222 --> 01:16:32,662
we still have a few spots left

2173
01:16:32,662 --> 01:16:34,542
for people that are super, super focused

2174
01:16:34,542 --> 01:16:36,921
on solar batteries.

2175
01:16:37,421 --> 01:16:38,881
If you're another energy source too,

2176
01:16:38,961 --> 01:16:39,861
we're happy to chat about that,

2177
01:16:39,961 --> 01:16:41,301
grids and data centers.

2178
01:16:41,701 --> 01:16:43,521
The one big area that we're weak on now,

2179
01:16:43,561 --> 01:16:44,122
I was telling you guys,

2180
01:16:44,182 --> 01:16:46,602
that we really want is...

2181
01:16:46,602 --> 01:16:48,201
We got coal coming.

2182
01:16:48,861 --> 01:16:49,122
Oh.

2183
01:16:51,002 --> 01:16:52,321
C-O-L.

2184
01:16:52,461 --> 01:16:53,901
We have C-O-L-E, coal,

2185
01:16:54,261 --> 01:16:55,741
the founder of Kila Energy.

2186
01:16:55,761 --> 01:16:56,162
Air Mike.

2187
01:16:56,301 --> 01:16:56,781
Which is cool.

2188
01:16:58,082 --> 01:16:58,481
Generation.

2189
01:16:59,401 --> 01:17:00,061
Hole now.

2190
01:17:01,002 --> 01:17:02,701
We're weak on the kerosene point.

2191
01:17:02,701 --> 01:17:06,881
So if anyone's out there hunting whale blubber, you took it out of my mouth.

2192
01:17:07,301 --> 01:17:07,561
Yeah.

2193
01:17:08,142 --> 01:17:11,122
If you know Captain Ahab, we're trying to get an intro over there.

2194
01:17:11,841 --> 01:17:12,961
I hope you do that.

2195
01:17:13,961 --> 01:17:17,122
We also want to discuss making some modifications to the carry model.

2196
01:17:19,122 --> 01:17:19,722
Yeah, yeah.

2197
01:17:19,761 --> 01:17:20,142
I got you.

2198
01:17:20,261 --> 01:17:20,741
That's a joke.

2199
01:17:20,921 --> 01:17:21,261
That's funny.

2200
01:17:21,701 --> 01:17:21,981
I got you.

2201
01:17:22,102 --> 01:17:22,722
Thank you, Deacon.

2202
01:17:23,142 --> 01:17:28,741
Anyways, so the one area that we're still super hustling on, if either of you guys have

2203
01:17:28,741 --> 01:17:31,561
thoughts on this, actually, there's a few folks I want to mention by you as well.

2204
01:17:31,561 --> 01:17:32,481
maybe we can do that off air.

2205
01:17:33,881 --> 01:17:34,441
Who's that?

2206
01:17:35,241 --> 01:17:36,142
Oh, yeah, I am too.

2207
01:17:36,261 --> 01:17:36,582
So, yes.

2208
01:17:37,102 --> 01:17:40,682
So, it rhymes with B-Lon Tuss.

2209
01:17:43,981 --> 01:17:46,401
And if we can figure that one out,

2210
01:17:46,461 --> 01:17:48,002
we should definitely still give that a shot.

2211
01:17:48,061 --> 01:17:49,401
We should talk about that after this.

2212
01:17:49,682 --> 01:17:52,061
But we do have to get the Tesla shuttle

2213
01:17:52,061 --> 01:17:53,182
we're meeting moved, right?

2214
01:17:53,301 --> 01:17:55,521
Or no, because we've extended it.

2215
01:17:55,881 --> 01:17:57,582
So, we haven't even put this on the website yet,

2216
01:17:57,602 --> 01:17:58,881
but I'm going to go ahead and just mention it.

2217
01:17:58,881 --> 01:17:59,981
I'm really excited about this.

2218
01:17:59,981 --> 01:18:08,921
um okay so yeah whatever fuck it you listen to pbj for the alpha right so on so it was going to be

2219
01:18:08,921 --> 01:18:15,341
originally just one day uh we still have not announced the dates the second you just did um

2220
01:18:15,341 --> 01:18:19,281
oh yeah damn don't know what you mean

2221
01:18:19,281 --> 01:18:27,341
the llm's got shit the llm's got it oh well whatever it is what it is uh so i don't know

2222
01:18:27,341 --> 01:18:37,582
where it's going to be. So good luck. So we're going to have, I think, probably six or so

2223
01:18:37,582 --> 01:18:41,222
incredible panels and then a bunch of really awesome breakout groups, probably four on the

2224
01:18:41,222 --> 01:18:45,561
first day panels, two on the second day, and a lot of awesome breakout groups. It will still be

2225
01:18:45,561 --> 01:18:50,561
really intimate when people are sort of ideating. I don't want to give away all the panels we're

2226
01:18:50,561 --> 01:18:54,741
working on right now, but one that I'm super excited about is going to be, this took some

2227
01:18:54,741 --> 01:19:01,502
work to get over the finish line, but a discussion with Ramez Nam and Casey Hennemer. Ramez was the

2228
01:19:01,502 --> 01:19:07,821
first guy that went super deep on solar pilling me at least like 15 years ago. Futurist, I think

2229
01:19:07,821 --> 01:19:12,502
buddies with Ray Kurzweil, really, really, really thoughtful, smart guy. And he was the one showing

2230
01:19:12,502 --> 01:19:16,821
all the curves for solar and lithium ion storage. So he was basically being the one like solar and

2231
01:19:16,821 --> 01:19:20,502
storage are going to disrupt everything, but this was like 2012 or something and everyone thought he

2232
01:19:20,502 --> 01:19:25,381
was crazy. And even he was too conservative. I would say this guy, Casey Hannemer is like the

2233
01:19:25,381 --> 01:19:29,021
new remess. And he's gotten very famous in the last couple of months. He's been on all the

2234
01:19:29,021 --> 01:19:33,162
mainstream pods like Dworkash and everything and like really trying to solar pill these guys.

2235
01:19:34,042 --> 01:19:38,142
It's crazy to me listening to people like him, Dworkash and the mainstream Silicon Valley,

2236
01:19:38,222 --> 01:19:44,162
they just can't quite wrap their head around it. But I think Casey's right. So what's interesting

2237
01:19:44,162 --> 01:19:48,642
is those guys will be in conversation because there's a lot of things they can chat about that

2238
01:19:48,642 --> 01:19:53,122
know they agree on, which is very cool, but there's also things they don't agree on, such as

2239
01:19:53,122 --> 01:19:59,082
do we need continent scale grids and HVDC lines or not? So one vision of the world is it's going

2240
01:19:59,082 --> 01:20:02,701
to be hyper, hyper local. It's just going to be everyone who has their solar in storage. Maybe

2241
01:20:02,701 --> 01:20:09,142
there's some local lines between, but it's a very hot topic of debate. And one of the only topics in

2242
01:20:09,142 --> 01:20:14,381
this whole field, I really have an open mind on. I don't have that idea. I mean, I have a slight

2243
01:20:14,381 --> 01:20:20,421
leaning, but like super open to having my mind completely changed is do we have HVDC high voltage

2244
01:20:20,421 --> 01:20:25,042
direct current lines or not? So anyway, so that's going to be, I think for the energy nerds,

2245
01:20:25,321 --> 01:20:27,722
one of the most interesting, maybe the most interesting discussion of the year.

2246
01:20:28,182 --> 01:20:32,481
So I'm very excited about that. We're also going to do some really wild stuff just to give you a

2247
01:20:32,481 --> 01:20:36,441
hint. We haven't fully booked this one yet, but I'm open to things like obviously, you know,

2248
01:20:36,502 --> 01:20:39,042
going behind the meter, we're going to have some of the best people in the world talking about

2249
01:20:39,042 --> 01:20:44,281
building data centers behind the meter and how big those can go. I'll give you a little alpha

2250
01:20:44,281 --> 01:20:49,142
drop. I'm playing with the idea from micro to macro dosing, the evolution of the fractal grid.

2251
01:20:50,122 --> 01:20:55,861
So it's going to be pretty out there, but very good. And then I'm also very, I'm starting to

2252
01:20:55,861 --> 01:20:59,122
think about doing something around like compute in space, because that's one I don't have an

2253
01:20:59,122 --> 01:21:04,441
opinion on as well. It sounds crazy, but maybe it is, I don't know. But point is, this is going to

2254
01:21:04,441 --> 01:21:11,542
be a day for the big thinkers to think big, to suspend disbelief, and imagine what a world could

2255
01:21:11,542 --> 01:21:13,521
look like if we were starting from ground zero.

2256
01:21:14,542 --> 01:21:14,622
What?

2257
01:21:15,021 --> 01:21:16,801
I'm super excited for this.

2258
01:21:17,901 --> 01:21:19,761
What's the latest thinking on how

2259
01:21:19,761 --> 01:21:21,582
those who can't

2260
01:21:21,582 --> 01:21:23,162
attend can learn?

2261
01:21:23,582 --> 01:21:25,461
Will things be live streamed,

2262
01:21:25,481 --> 01:21:27,341
recorded? Will there be summaries published?

2263
01:21:27,542 --> 01:21:29,042
All figuring all of that out.

2264
01:21:29,801 --> 01:21:31,502
Alex has been helping a tremendous amount

2265
01:21:31,502 --> 01:21:33,502
on this and I know he's still figuring some of the pieces

2266
01:21:33,502 --> 01:21:35,441
out on what we're going to have AV-wise, depending on where

2267
01:21:35,441 --> 01:21:37,502
we are, but my current thinking

2268
01:21:37,502 --> 01:21:39,461
is I don't want to commit to anything

2269
01:21:39,461 --> 01:21:41,421
yet because we still have to figure out

2270
01:21:41,421 --> 01:21:43,542
where we're going to be and all that, but we'll try

2271
01:21:43,542 --> 01:21:45,502
and record, maybe live stream,

2272
01:21:45,582 --> 01:21:47,301
but at least record the panels,

2273
01:21:47,701 --> 01:21:49,381
assuming all the participants are okay with that.

2274
01:21:49,821 --> 01:21:51,461
And then the afternoon-evening

2275
01:21:51,461 --> 01:21:52,602
discussions will be Chatham House.

2276
01:21:53,162 --> 01:21:55,102
So maybe there'll be a summary,

2277
01:21:55,521 --> 01:21:57,361
but it won't be attributed to anyone or anything.

2278
01:21:58,002 --> 01:21:59,421
But we're going to do

2279
01:21:59,421 --> 01:22:00,841
our best to get the panels

2280
01:22:00,841 --> 01:22:02,722
filmed.

2281
01:22:03,301 --> 01:22:05,162
And those, by the way, generally

2282
01:22:05,162 --> 01:22:07,381
I agree with both you guys. I know you talked about this a lot

2283
01:22:07,381 --> 01:22:08,761
with some of the conferences you like,

2284
01:22:08,761 --> 01:22:10,461
like, yeah, I always just skip the panels.

2285
01:22:10,461 --> 01:22:11,321
it's like a waste of time.

2286
01:22:11,662 --> 01:22:12,421
This will not be that.

2287
01:22:12,602 --> 01:22:13,722
I guarantee you

2288
01:22:13,722 --> 01:22:15,061
these will be some of the most interesting

2289
01:22:15,061 --> 01:22:17,182
discussions around energy in the world.

2290
01:22:18,102 --> 01:22:19,421
We're also going to have some folks

2291
01:22:19,421 --> 01:22:20,542
still confirming exactly who,

2292
01:22:20,582 --> 01:22:21,481
but some of the policymakers

2293
01:22:21,481 --> 01:22:23,941
that are pushing for things like private grids

2294
01:22:23,941 --> 01:22:24,981
in states like New Hampshire.

2295
01:22:25,722 --> 01:22:27,201
That is fascinating

2296
01:22:27,201 --> 01:22:28,182
and a really interesting area.

2297
01:22:28,602 --> 01:22:29,321
We're going to have folks

2298
01:22:29,321 --> 01:22:30,441
from Latin American countries

2299
01:22:30,441 --> 01:22:32,741
where you can just kind of like do things.

2300
01:22:32,921 --> 01:22:34,002
So that's going to be very interesting.

2301
01:22:35,421 --> 01:22:37,082
And it's going to be awesome.

2302
01:22:37,241 --> 01:22:38,521
One area that we are weak on.

2303
01:22:38,642 --> 01:22:39,561
So putting out the request

2304
01:22:39,561 --> 01:22:42,281
to both of you guys and other people on the show,

2305
01:22:42,441 --> 01:22:45,701
we want the data center energy people

2306
01:22:45,701 --> 01:22:46,481
from the hyperscalers.

2307
01:22:46,642 --> 01:22:48,002
So we've got some of the NeoClouds.

2308
01:22:48,021 --> 01:22:49,921
I mean, we're open to more NeoCloud people as well,

2309
01:22:50,002 --> 01:22:52,021
but we want to make sure Google, XAI, Microsoft,

2310
01:22:52,461 --> 01:22:53,701
AWS are represented.

2311
01:22:54,102 --> 01:22:56,401
We have some ins there still confirming those people,

2312
01:22:56,401 --> 01:22:58,241
but that's, you know,

2313
01:22:58,341 --> 01:23:00,421
I almost think about kind of like two tracks

2314
01:23:00,421 --> 01:23:01,002
I'm excited about.

2315
01:23:01,122 --> 01:23:02,261
One is the big money, right?

2316
01:23:02,321 --> 01:23:02,941
So we want to have,

2317
01:23:03,182 --> 01:23:05,381
a lot of finance guys are not listed on the website.

2318
01:23:05,542 --> 01:23:06,082
The ones that are coming,

2319
01:23:06,162 --> 01:23:07,861
they like to keep a low profile.

2320
01:23:07,861 --> 01:23:12,421
I've learned in the last couple weeks, but we will have people that are financing these

2321
01:23:12,421 --> 01:23:12,662
things.

2322
01:23:14,602 --> 01:23:16,542
We want to make sure we have the guys that are actually spending.

2323
01:23:16,662 --> 01:23:17,441
That would be the hyperscalers.

2324
01:23:17,841 --> 01:23:21,981
And then I'm going to have another segment be more of the open source stuff.

2325
01:23:22,341 --> 01:23:28,561
So in the same way that there's the bid acts to contrast the big public miners, I want

2326
01:23:28,561 --> 01:23:33,281
to make sure there is a track to encourage people to be able to spend some of this stuff

2327
01:23:33,281 --> 01:23:34,201
out on their own communities.

2328
01:23:34,201 --> 01:23:37,481
And that's like, that's like, it has nothing to do with like profitable or venture back

2329
01:23:37,481 --> 01:23:38,021
or any of that.

2330
01:23:38,381 --> 01:23:39,361
I just think it's really cool.

2331
01:23:39,441 --> 01:23:43,142
The more people can take control of their own lives, build their own microgrids, have

2332
01:23:43,142 --> 01:23:47,162
their own solar, their own mining, their own storage, their own personal servers, which

2333
01:23:47,162 --> 01:23:49,561
we'll talk about, like, I want to make sure both of those are represented.

2334
01:23:49,901 --> 01:23:49,921
So.

2335
01:23:50,421 --> 01:23:55,441
And I know one of the things that you were sort of theorizing or hypothesizing is that

2336
01:23:55,441 --> 01:24:00,642
it may be that there's going to be an explosion of new companies or there's one new company

2337
01:24:00,642 --> 01:24:03,042
that needs to get built that nobody's working on yet.

2338
01:24:03,042 --> 01:24:04,162
or do you have a sense yet?

2339
01:24:04,261 --> 01:24:05,941
Have you kind of from putting this together,

2340
01:24:06,061 --> 01:24:06,602
talk to more people,

2341
01:24:06,682 --> 01:24:08,642
have you gotten a sense that like sort of

2342
01:24:08,642 --> 01:24:10,582
what might kind of emerge

2343
01:24:10,582 --> 01:24:12,021
or what kind of things might emerge

2344
01:24:12,021 --> 01:24:14,361
as a result of all the people getting connected

2345
01:24:14,361 --> 01:24:15,682
and new ideas getting shared?

2346
01:24:16,082 --> 01:24:17,861
I mean, we'll see.

2347
01:24:18,021 --> 01:24:19,182
I'm super open-minded.

2348
01:24:19,401 --> 01:24:20,441
I mean, personally, right?

2349
01:24:20,542 --> 01:24:22,761
Like my day job, occasionally,

2350
01:24:22,841 --> 01:24:23,421
every once in a while,

2351
01:24:23,542 --> 01:24:25,002
I don't just shit talk on PBJ.

2352
01:24:25,102 --> 01:24:25,622
Every once in a while,

2353
01:24:25,722 --> 01:24:28,361
I actually do some investing work.

2354
01:24:28,542 --> 01:24:29,722
So I mean, okay, actually,

2355
01:24:29,841 --> 01:24:31,162
I do have something I want to talk about on this.

2356
01:24:31,162 --> 01:24:33,682
so yes personally I want to fund a couple companies

2357
01:24:33,682 --> 01:24:35,521
that ideally spin out of this or maybe

2358
01:24:35,521 --> 01:24:37,861
you know or sort of like the initial

2359
01:24:37,861 --> 01:24:39,682
kind of like whatever the

2360
01:24:39,682 --> 01:24:41,582
analogy is Tinder the spark for

2361
01:24:41,582 --> 01:24:43,361
that's why I think it's important to

2362
01:24:43,361 --> 01:24:45,841
to the best of our ability

2363
01:24:45,841 --> 01:24:47,321
make the content available

2364
01:24:47,321 --> 01:24:49,662
the rest of the world because while we'll have

2365
01:24:49,662 --> 01:24:51,281
a bunch of amazing people here

2366
01:24:51,281 --> 01:24:53,441
there's a ton of amazing people outside that won't

2367
01:24:53,441 --> 01:24:55,682
be there who might start

2368
01:24:55,682 --> 01:24:57,102
a company that you want to invest in

2369
01:24:57,102 --> 01:24:58,662
it's a great point and we're going to do it yeah

2370
01:24:58,662 --> 01:25:01,961
we'll find a way to get as much of that public as we can and maybe even live.

2371
01:25:03,082 --> 01:25:05,301
But that's, that's one sort of selfish goal I have is like,

2372
01:25:05,301 --> 01:25:06,361
I would love to fund, you know,

2373
01:25:06,361 --> 01:25:08,981
be the absolute first money into some of these companies or even help,

2374
01:25:09,061 --> 01:25:12,222
like help incubate and like actually roll up my own sleeves.

2375
01:25:12,222 --> 01:25:14,941
This is like the first field where I've gotten excited to like actually like,

2376
01:25:15,421 --> 01:25:18,821
like really like do operational things, which I, you know,

2377
01:25:19,002 --> 01:25:23,521
prefer more of the, the platonic ideal of thinking it went up.

2378
01:25:23,861 --> 01:25:26,761
But, but, but, but it, I mean, this is so exciting.

2379
01:25:26,761 --> 01:25:37,642
So one of the things I wanted to mention is, I don't know if we'll have this as a panel or breakout group, but I also want to focus on like sort of the Bitcoiners that started off as Bitcoin people and are now more generic energy people.

2380
01:25:38,361 --> 01:25:55,461
So, you know, without getting into too many details, you know, I'm an investor in Stoci Energy and it's been crazy to watch them go from Bitcoin sort of brokering like between Stranded Wind and West Texas and miners now into AI compute and just watch their numbers just go vertical.

2381
01:25:55,461 --> 01:25:59,201
now there is some public stuff. I shared this on LinkedIn because everyone knows that's the

2382
01:25:59,201 --> 01:26:01,961
network where I'm not nerfed and where all the alpha is.

2383
01:26:03,841 --> 01:26:07,582
They announced 2.8 gigawatts of new projects

2384
01:26:07,582 --> 01:26:11,642
they're developing. 2.8 gigawatts. That's a big fucking deal.

2385
01:26:12,642 --> 01:26:15,642
And a year ago, that would have been inconceivable for Bitcoin miners.

2386
01:26:15,901 --> 01:26:19,341
So that's one example. Oops, I should have invested.

2387
01:26:19,341 --> 01:26:23,401
Yeah, well, I'm about to give my miss here in just a minute.

2388
01:26:23,401 --> 01:26:28,521
um cruceau i mean similar numbers we're gonna have some folks from cruceau at least one person

2389
01:26:28,521 --> 01:26:32,521
um to be announced but they were you know they were a good company when they were doing bitcoin

2390
01:26:32,521 --> 01:26:36,561
money they're like one of the five sexiest companies in the world probably or 10 or whatever

2391
01:26:36,561 --> 01:26:40,941
it is right now now that they're doing ai um and then i want to just give a shout out to the giga

2392
01:26:40,941 --> 01:26:45,801
guys alex and i alex has been hustling he's been going with events with you me we went to a dinner

2393
01:26:45,801 --> 01:26:50,361
or a party some like event for sf tech week which i didn't think was a thing because i was like isn't

2394
01:26:50,361 --> 01:26:51,301
every week in SF Tech,

2395
01:26:51,441 --> 01:26:52,881
but apparently there's

2396
01:26:52,881 --> 01:26:53,461
SF Tech Week.

2397
01:26:54,961 --> 01:26:55,561
Who knew?

2398
01:26:55,801 --> 01:26:57,622
And it was super fun.

2399
01:26:57,761 --> 01:26:58,622
And like these guys,

2400
01:26:58,762 --> 01:26:59,762
it was like a German

2401
01:26:59,762 --> 01:27:01,781
like Oktoberfest thing.

2402
01:27:01,921 --> 01:27:03,102
And like, yeah,

2403
01:27:03,182 --> 01:27:04,481
these guys were all dressed up

2404
01:27:04,481 --> 01:27:06,481
as Oktoberfest people.

2405
01:27:06,781 --> 01:27:07,502
But it turns out they're like...

2406
01:27:07,502 --> 01:27:08,682
They're hosing and...

2407
01:27:08,682 --> 01:27:09,642
Yeah, it was just like,

2408
01:27:09,722 --> 01:27:10,921
what is going on here?

2409
01:27:10,981 --> 01:27:11,901
But it turns out they're,

2410
01:27:11,901 --> 01:27:12,182
you know,

2411
01:27:12,301 --> 01:27:13,281
extremely serious entrepreneurs.

2412
01:27:13,561 --> 01:27:14,161
And man,

2413
01:27:14,301 --> 01:27:15,701
so I shout out to those guys.

2414
01:27:15,821 --> 01:27:16,521
One of the co-founders

2415
01:27:16,521 --> 01:27:17,461
will be joining us for the summit.

2416
01:27:17,561 --> 01:27:18,661
I'm really excited to have him there.

2417
01:27:18,661 --> 01:27:21,921
but their story is incredible as well.

2418
01:27:22,841 --> 01:27:23,542
This is my miss.

2419
01:27:23,622 --> 01:27:24,521
I don't even remember this

2420
01:27:24,521 --> 01:27:26,082
but I chatted with the CEO for a long time

2421
01:27:26,082 --> 01:27:27,161
at dinner and he was like,

2422
01:27:27,222 --> 01:27:29,361
yeah dude, we chatted years ago, you passed.

2423
01:27:30,281 --> 01:27:31,682
And I was like, I don't even remember.

2424
01:27:31,901 --> 01:27:32,781
I really don't even remember

2425
01:27:32,781 --> 01:27:36,461
but they raised a very small amount of money

2426
01:27:36,461 --> 01:27:38,021
and have mostly bootstrapped since then

2427
01:27:38,021 --> 01:27:40,401
but they were telling me some numbers

2428
01:27:40,401 --> 01:27:42,801
that just any venture capitalist

2429
01:27:42,801 --> 01:27:45,622
would blow your mind

2430
01:27:45,622 --> 01:27:47,421
on what they're developing right now

2431
01:27:47,421 --> 01:27:52,002
and part of what they're doing

2432
01:27:52,002 --> 01:27:53,222
is they're making transformers.

2433
01:27:53,502 --> 01:27:54,461
They're actually making their own,

2434
01:27:54,502 --> 01:27:55,341
they're building a factory

2435
01:27:55,341 --> 01:27:56,701
to make transformers in Texas.

2436
01:27:57,142 --> 01:27:58,321
That's crazy talk.

2437
01:27:58,421 --> 01:27:59,961
That is crazy talk.

2438
01:28:00,622 --> 01:28:01,941
And the cool thing for them is like,

2439
01:28:01,981 --> 01:28:02,582
you know, it doesn't matter

2440
01:28:02,582 --> 01:28:03,961
what it's, Bitcoin, AI compute,

2441
01:28:04,161 --> 01:28:05,241
solar, nuclear, whatever.

2442
01:28:05,682 --> 01:28:06,821
Everyone needs transformers.

2443
01:28:06,901 --> 01:28:08,281
You cannot buy transformers.

2444
01:28:08,661 --> 01:28:09,781
Everyone needs transformers.

2445
01:28:10,102 --> 01:28:10,722
And so I was going down,

2446
01:28:10,781 --> 01:28:11,762
it's like being, I mean,

2447
01:28:12,262 --> 01:28:13,381
hats off to those guys

2448
01:28:13,381 --> 01:28:14,401
because they did it all themselves.

2449
01:28:14,941 --> 01:28:16,941
But the thing that I wanted to mention

2450
01:28:16,941 --> 01:28:22,701
on the show today that really clicked for me when talking to those guys was, you know,

2451
01:28:22,881 --> 01:28:26,961
when I was first writing that paper that Bitcoin is key to an abundant clean energy future,

2452
01:28:27,061 --> 01:28:32,082
I had a lot of things right, but I didn't exactly see one critical piece. You know,

2453
01:28:32,102 --> 01:28:36,701
I thought it was going to be more of the Bitcoin miners come in first, kind of like get a system

2454
01:28:36,701 --> 01:28:40,841
set up and then maybe a bigger offtaker, you know, I was thinking green hydrogen, maybe compute,

2455
01:28:40,841 --> 01:28:45,582
but whatever comes in later, desal, you know, carbon capture, air, whatever.

2456
01:28:45,582 --> 01:28:51,701
What I kind of missed was at least what's happened to date.

2457
01:28:52,021 --> 01:28:57,722
The real sort of alpha or secret was those companies that started off doing Bitcoin mining

2458
01:28:57,722 --> 01:29:06,002
just got such a far head start in understanding the markets, in cornering supply chains,

2459
01:29:06,321 --> 01:29:11,222
and in getting very scarce assets like grid interconnects.

2460
01:29:11,861 --> 01:29:14,042
And maybe some people will say we all got lucky.

2461
01:29:14,042 --> 01:29:21,321
Maybe. Maybe some people will say that it was Bitcoiners understanding scarcity. Maybe.

2462
01:29:22,502 --> 01:29:26,701
But what has actually played out in practice with companies like Satoshi and Giga and all these guys

2463
01:29:26,701 --> 01:29:32,021
is the Bitcoiners, those guys, when they started the company, they were like 22 or 23 years old.

2464
01:29:32,082 --> 01:29:40,002
They're like 27 now. And it's wild. And if you had gone five years ago as a 22-year-old and be

2465
01:29:40,002 --> 01:29:41,341
I'm going to manufacture trans...

2466
01:29:41,341 --> 01:29:43,021
People would have laughed at you.

2467
01:29:43,241 --> 01:29:46,061
Hyperscalers would never work with you in a million years, ever.

2468
01:29:46,622 --> 01:29:47,642
You know who would work with you?

2469
01:29:48,481 --> 01:29:49,182
The Bitcoin miners.

2470
01:29:49,682 --> 01:29:50,082
Why?

2471
01:29:50,281 --> 01:29:54,661
Because these guys are cowboys or kind of skirting on the edge of society.

2472
01:29:54,881 --> 01:29:56,642
Anyway, it's the same thing with everything with Bitcoin.

2473
01:29:56,642 --> 01:30:00,381
It's like because it's a free market, they really need this thing.

2474
01:30:00,781 --> 01:30:04,102
Most people did not take them seriously, would not give them lines of credit.

2475
01:30:04,582 --> 01:30:09,381
Banks won't even give them a document they need to be able to sign for offtake.

2476
01:30:09,381 --> 01:30:12,941
great. So they had to work with like the pirates and the renegades and the weirdos.

2477
01:30:12,941 --> 01:30:16,301
Everything goes from the edge. Everything goes from the edge. And so it's just like you have like

2478
01:30:16,301 --> 01:30:19,741
kids, like literal 22 year old kids who would never have been taken seriously,

2479
01:30:19,921 --> 01:30:25,481
are able to get this huge head start because the renegades literally can't get any financing or

2480
01:30:25,481 --> 01:30:29,961
like the traditional mainstream would not work with them. So the kids, you have an opportunity,

2481
01:30:30,481 --> 01:30:33,521
the kids get so far ahead and it's like, you know, maybe they're not as good at first,

2482
01:30:33,521 --> 01:30:36,521
but eventually they learn and they try stuff and they get better and better and they develop

2483
01:30:36,521 --> 01:30:41,461
the relationships and the suppliers realize they're real. Six years in, the serious guys

2484
01:30:41,461 --> 01:30:46,421
want to come to the party. Good luck. You're six years behind. And so to me, that's been the big

2485
01:30:46,421 --> 01:30:50,901
story with Bitcoin energy so far is because you could start with the renegades and the weirdos,

2486
01:30:51,341 --> 01:30:55,741
people on the fringes had an opportunity to get a huge head start and like, it's going to be hard

2487
01:30:55,741 --> 01:31:00,701
to catch. So coming away, and I wish I'd invested in that company. I'm cooking myself even more than

2488
01:31:00,701 --> 01:31:05,642
you are. So I know we're sort of over time or at time right now, but I want to just mention one

2489
01:31:05,642 --> 01:31:12,341
thing i feel like max you have so many great resources on energy and kind of learning about

2490
01:31:12,341 --> 01:31:18,542
this and i wonder i almost imagine there should be like hive mind.vc slash energy canon and just

2491
01:31:18,542 --> 01:31:23,642
like kind of like what jameson lop i think has kind of for intro to you know everything about

2492
01:31:23,642 --> 01:31:28,201
bitcoin or um you know a6nz did it for shit coins i think they have the crypto canon right so

2493
01:31:28,201 --> 01:31:33,542
i feel like i'd like to read the energy canon which is just like here's all the best episodes

2494
01:31:33,542 --> 01:31:35,921
of the podcast, the episodes on YouTube,

2495
01:31:36,341 --> 01:31:37,741
the Casey or whatever,

2496
01:31:37,841 --> 01:31:39,821
you know, the blogs

2497
01:31:39,821 --> 01:31:41,561
that I should read, the blog posts, the specific

2498
01:31:41,561 --> 01:31:43,701
posts. So I can kind of get an overview

2499
01:31:43,701 --> 01:31:45,701
of all of the modern

2500
01:31:45,701 --> 01:31:47,701
relevant ideas and you can kind of just like curate

2501
01:31:47,701 --> 01:31:49,182
that set, put it out there and then

2502
01:31:49,182 --> 01:31:51,642
I think it also can show people

2503
01:31:51,642 --> 01:31:53,841
your interest but also help promote

2504
01:31:53,841 --> 01:31:55,781
the event and get the right

2505
01:31:55,781 --> 01:31:57,102
people involved, you know, sort of just

2506
01:31:57,102 --> 01:31:59,661
another bad signal. It's a great idea. I love it and I

2507
01:31:59,661 --> 01:32:01,381
should totally put that list together and like, yeah,

2508
01:32:01,381 --> 01:32:04,102
and open source or whatever, people can contribute their own.

2509
01:32:04,102 --> 01:32:05,781
But yeah, it's-

2510
01:32:05,781 --> 01:32:07,142
Maybe it's a GitHub page or something.

2511
01:32:07,142 --> 01:32:08,142
Yeah, GitHub.

2512
01:32:08,142 --> 01:32:09,481
It's great at the AI slop.

2513
01:32:09,481 --> 01:32:12,301
He'll just slop stuff together for you.

2514
01:32:12,301 --> 01:32:14,722
DK, do you have any questions about energy?

2515
01:32:14,722 --> 01:32:19,281
Maybe 450 or something like this in my way.

2516
01:32:19,281 --> 01:32:21,602
I will generate 450 questions about energy.

2517
01:32:21,602 --> 01:32:23,941
420, sorry, please.

2518
01:32:23,941 --> 01:32:24,941
69, actually.

2519
01:32:24,941 --> 01:32:27,701
I'll share it down to 69 that I actually am interested in.

2520
01:32:27,701 --> 01:32:29,002
Thank God.

2521
01:32:29,002 --> 01:32:30,002
It's a good idea.

2522
01:32:30,002 --> 01:32:33,841
And just in general, I think maybe one of my biggest things I want to leave folks with,

2523
01:32:33,921 --> 01:32:37,521
because I saw Diana or Deanna put this love people on the fringes,

2524
01:32:37,521 --> 01:32:42,381
is there are days when it's frustrating because you're just like,

2525
01:32:42,481 --> 01:32:46,821
man, mainstream tech has just got all the money and this and that.

2526
01:32:46,941 --> 01:32:52,801
And it's like, first of all, yeah, but I always think it's the Steve Jobs quote.

2527
01:32:52,921 --> 01:32:54,561
It's like, why join the Navy when you could be a pilot?

2528
01:32:55,461 --> 01:32:59,921
At the end of the day, being on the fringes, working on the weird stuff we do with principals,

2529
01:33:00,002 --> 01:33:00,762
with values,

2530
01:33:00,941 --> 01:33:01,521
caring about freedom.

2531
01:33:01,582 --> 01:33:02,762
It's just so much more fun.

2532
01:33:03,021 --> 01:33:03,381
100%.

2533
01:33:03,381 --> 01:33:04,841
And then eventually it does work.

2534
01:33:04,981 --> 01:33:05,901
Like it takes time,

2535
01:33:06,182 --> 01:33:06,781
but like eventually

2536
01:33:06,781 --> 01:33:08,901
that's where the transformative ideas come from.

2537
01:33:09,142 --> 01:33:09,161
So.

2538
01:33:09,262 --> 01:33:09,381
Yep.

2539
01:33:10,961 --> 01:33:11,722
Wholeheartedly agree.

2540
01:33:12,161 --> 01:33:12,461
All right.

2541
01:33:13,542 --> 01:33:13,901
Recall it?

2542
01:33:13,901 --> 01:33:14,682
To that, let's wrap it.

2543
01:33:14,801 --> 01:33:15,142
All right.

2544
01:33:15,361 --> 01:33:15,661
All right.

2545
01:33:15,762 --> 01:33:16,281
Good to hang guys.

2546
01:33:16,381 --> 01:33:16,542
Thanks.

2547
01:33:16,781 --> 01:33:17,161
Good times.

2548
01:33:17,441 --> 01:33:17,622
All right.

2549
01:33:18,122 --> 01:33:18,421
Bye-bye.