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I can hear you.

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The stream is live. I think we did it.

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Oh, shit. We're already live.

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All right.

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Let's get going.

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Welcome to another episode of PBJ.

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How are you guys doing?

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Good. We're just talking about how many things we have to talk about.

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It's a lot today. It's also kind of hot.

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I mean, it's beautiful.

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I mean, hot slash very nice, but I'm like sweaty

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coming over today.

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You walked over, right?

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Feeling good, though.

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Well, we're not going to be doxing anyone.

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I jet packed over

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DK is fortunate that he doesn't

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have to be in the same room with your sweat

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exactly yeah I'm trying to smell lovely

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bro you come on here after

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bike rides and stuff

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alright I've yet

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have I worn my bike kit

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yet I don't think I have

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you wore biking out there

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maybe once

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I thought you wore it once

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we've got the video footage

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and we've got that AI tool

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that Ashi built

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can it do an exploit

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yeah I brought it up last week

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and like

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dropped the alpha

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and then you guys

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played it afterwards

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it was good

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isn't it good

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it was really

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I mean kudos to Ashu

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it was really

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and that was his first thing

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he's ever built right

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yeah

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that's sick

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yeah

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I think it's very slick

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so now we're

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there were five episodes

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uploaded for us to test

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and we're gonna get

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all the content

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in there now

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and make it available

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to others

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and just for those

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who didn't hear last week

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what exactly is this

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just like a

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Well, we've done like 60 episodes of this now.

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I think this is either 59 or 60, but we've done a lot.

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So there's like 100 hours of content.

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And we talk about a lot of topics, right?

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I mean, AI, vibe coding, Bitcoin, etc.

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So often I'll want to go back, like someone asked me about something.

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I'm like, oh, we had a really good discussion.

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When was it?

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And what timestamp in the video?

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and even though I participated in it,

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it still takes me like minutes,

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if not tens of minutes to find it.

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So that's obviously a barrier.

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So this is a website which is like a topic index.

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So I can go to, oh, I want to talk about OpenClaw

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or I want to go find out when did we talk about OpenClaw.

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So I just look up OpenClaw or search for OpenClaw

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and then it has every episode where we talk about it

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and linked right to the timestamp.

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It just makes that process super simple.

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Beautiful. We should drop that in the show notes today.

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Yeah. Well, I mean, when, when, whenever Ashu's in it, yeah, when maybe next week or we'll launch it soon.

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Yeah. It's amazing. I think it's, it's really well done. Uh, and I think it actually points

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toward a future that, you know, I think we could collectively all be thinking about, which is,

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you know, like Ashu has been doing that kind of work and trying to make those clips. And

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he's been doing that as a manual process. And it's pretty frustrating. I think if you have to do a

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little bit of a grind of the same thing every day.

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So nobody told him, hey, let's go make a thing.

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I assume you didn't.

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I don't know.

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I didn't suggest it.

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But he sort of picks up and says, hey, look.

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I'm the ultimate PM.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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I PM this under existence.

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But I think there's a...

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And the reason why I even knew, like Bitcoin Optech, which is something I helped found and

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and run many years ago,

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created a similar topic index

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because David Harding wrote like 250 weeks of newsletters,

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like super detailed technical stuff.

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And it was like overwhelming to like go try to find something.

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And that's where the idea came from.

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Sorry to cut you off.

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Well, all I was saying is, you know,

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it was nice that you gave that nudge

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and kind of shared that that could be done.

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But I think almost everybody, whatever your job is,

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you are doing something that's probably a little bit of a grind or maybe not your most exciting

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part of your day. And you could think about what kind of tool you could build to help you do it

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better. And so in a sense, you don't think so much, hey, is I AI replacing my work, but how do

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I just make my work better by using AI? I think that's like a pretty probably accessible.

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One question on that, which is even though I think it's sick and super hats off to Ashu and

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everyone in the PB that's like buy, putting and building stuff now, even though that's sick for

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today, like, are we also just at a point where you just basically, like, let's say you have

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Claude or OpenClaw running, just be like, yo, just find this clip.

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Like, even the tools are amazing, but like, how far away are we from where, like, you

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don't even need the tools?

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You're just like, I have my one agent.

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I can see that coming quickly.

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I think there's a pat.

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That's fine.

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But I mean, I'm not saying it's bad.

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I'm just hearing now.

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Actually, DK, or we wanted to talk about, we had a builder meetup last night.

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Oh, yeah.

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We wanted to talk about that.

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And it's a good segue to that.

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Yeah.

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because another really good example of what you just mentioned, DK,

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is what Haley did yesterday.

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And I'm just, I think it's so exciting what she did.

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So, you know, she doesn't have a programming background,

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but she's definitely been experimenting with these different tools.

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And yesterday she had, there was like a practical need

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or experience she wanted to create for the builder meetup,

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which was she wanted people to be able to,

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because we've been running a raffle the past few months

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where we give out a BitKey.

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and she wanted to move from a physical process

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for the raffle tickets to digital.

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So she vibe-coded, she's cloud-coded,

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vibe-coded a really compelling experience,

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both for the administrator and for the participants.

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And she weaved in promotional activities

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for Presidia Bitcoin.

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So to enter the raffle, you had to go scan the QR code,

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go to this website she created.

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you then needed to subscribe to Presidio Bitcoin Media,

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like our show, so pump our numbers,

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as well as our own 21 and 21 podcast she does.

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And then also, what was the other?

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Oh, you had to sign up for the Presidio Bitcoin newsletter.

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And then once you, or you had to give checkbox

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to get permission to sign up and provide your email,

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then you submit, and then you got a raffle ticket.

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And then at the end of the night, she used her admin tool

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that she created to randomly select the winners.

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And there was a good visualization.

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It showed a digital jar, and everyone's name was in the jar.

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It was tasteful.

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High taste, pragmatic, useful, promoted Presidio Bitcoin well.

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And a feature request I had, and I hope we do in a future one,

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is I've always wanted to encourage people

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who visit Presidio Bitcoin

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to get a spending wallet on their phone.

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Yeah, that's a good one.

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Because, you know,

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I think most people who come through here,

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even if they're not a Bitcoiner,

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they probably own Bitcoin,

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but they might just hold it on Coinbase or something.

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So I'd like to encourage people

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to have Bitcoin on their phone, right?

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So one way to do that is like,

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give an incentive to spend a Bitcoin here

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at Presidio Bitcoin.

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Of course, we could do a store or something like that,

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But the idea with registration is like, you know, you get bonus raffle tickets, like a 2x or a 3x bonus if you spend just one Bitcoin.

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And when I say one Bitcoin, I mean a sat.

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Meaning like, you know, a tiny amount.

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We're not trying to like make money off this.

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We just want to get you to the point where you can pay one Bitcoin.

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Have the experience.

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You know, and so it does, there is friction.

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You have to like, be like, oh, how do I do that?

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Which wallet do I download and make a decision on that and then install it and then transfer Bitcoin into it?

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So there is a cost there.

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But hopefully, like, you know, bonus raffle tickets and maybe getting a BitKey.

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Also, Maple AI came in with prizes last night.

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So we have, there's like so much enthusiasm for the Builder meetup that we have multiple sponsors now.

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And I suspect more.

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We're going to have to come up with a process to figure out who all gets to be giving away stuff at Builder.

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but yeah I think it would be cool

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to be able to spend

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you know have people spend Bitcoin

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get extra raffle tickets

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and extra chances to win

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but back to the point

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with what Haley built

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I just think it's cool

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that she built it

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in less than a day

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I mean she started building it yesterday

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finished it

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and had it ready to go

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and it worked last night

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I think that's amazing

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and she did it without your

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your need to PM it right?

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yeah

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yeah I had nothing to do with this

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so

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do you know

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would she use Cloud Code

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or was she using

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or here?

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Cloud Code.

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Cloud Code.

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Yep.

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So,

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yeah,

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also,

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I'm curious

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just because

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I think a lot of people

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are beginning.

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I don't know,

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she was talking

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Purcell and Supabase

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with me,

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so.

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Okay.

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Go Haley.

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I mean,

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I'm just so proud of her

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because like,

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you know,

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go back six months ago,

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she wouldn't have any idea

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what any of these things are

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or how it all works

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and it's not just

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Cloud Code doing all the work.

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I mean,

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she's leveled up

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her knowledge

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to how to architect this,

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how to build it

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and make it happen,

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so super cool.

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Super cool.

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And then,

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so that was a cool aspect

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last night.

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Another really cool aspect

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last night

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was,

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you know,

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we started Builder

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last summer.

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We've done, what,

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eight or so now.

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It's always been intended

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to be,

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you know,

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a bigger tent

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welcoming Builders.

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It doesn't,

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you don't have to be a dev.

271
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,680
You can be any kind of,

272
00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:18,940
you know,

273
00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:19,880
career skill

274
00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:21,400
you can attend.

275
00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:22,420
You also don't have to be

276
00:09:22,420 --> 00:09:22,820
a Bitcoiner.

277
00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:23,120
In fact,

278
00:09:23,180 --> 00:09:24,640
we want non-Devs.

279
00:09:24,740 --> 00:09:26,100
We want non-Bitcoiners

280
00:09:26,100 --> 00:09:28,060
to come to this explicitly.

281
00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,580
So we've done decent at that historically,

282
00:09:32,980 --> 00:09:35,040
but still dominated by people

283
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:36,800
who would call themselves Bitcoiners, I think.

284
00:09:37,380 --> 00:09:39,420
But last night was the exact opposite,

285
00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:40,500
and it was amazing.

286
00:09:41,900 --> 00:09:42,700
There's a few reasons.

287
00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:44,280
I mean, the vast majority of people

288
00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,060
had never been to Presidio Bitcoin,

289
00:09:46,680 --> 00:09:49,880
I don't think would call themselves Bitcoiners.

290
00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:51,760
But they came and I think had a really,

291
00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,320
really positive experience.

292
00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,320
it's similar to the type 1 energy summit

293
00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:57,760
that you organized Max

294
00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:59,660
but even more so

295
00:09:59,660 --> 00:10:01,280
and why

296
00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,500
well one is it was marketed as

297
00:10:04,500 --> 00:10:06,340
I mean it was about OpenClaw

298
00:10:06,340 --> 00:10:08,260
so it was marketed as OpenClaw

299
00:10:08,260 --> 00:10:10,380
not attracted people who

300
00:10:10,380 --> 00:10:13,020
maybe don't care about Bitcoin

301
00:10:13,020 --> 00:10:15,080
but they were very interested in OpenClaw

302
00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,200
and number two

303
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,640
well because it was about OpenClaw

304
00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:21,460
Luma

305
00:10:21,460 --> 00:10:25,060
which is the invitation service we use now

306
00:10:25,060 --> 00:10:27,800
they added like an OpenClaw tag

307
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,620
and I think you don't have control over doing that

308
00:10:32,620 --> 00:10:35,520
other than the content you put in the invites

309
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,660
that happened and then I don't know if it was because of Luma or other reason

310
00:10:38,660 --> 00:10:42,040
but OpenClaw has some kind of event directory

311
00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,640
and we were added to that

312
00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:48,640
and we were on the front page of that

313
00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,420
And the dude retweeted it.

314
00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:51,420
Yeah.

315
00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:51,960
The OpenClaw.

316
00:10:52,140 --> 00:10:52,540
Right, yeah.

317
00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,660
The founder of OpenClaw retweeted,

318
00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:56,900
not our event, but the event directory.

319
00:10:57,560 --> 00:10:58,180
The event was on.

320
00:10:58,820 --> 00:10:59,840
Yeah, which we're on the front page.

321
00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:00,580
It's cool.

322
00:11:00,580 --> 00:11:03,260
We got great marketing exposure.

323
00:11:03,700 --> 00:11:07,500
I think Haley said 90 to 100 RSVPs.

324
00:11:07,700 --> 00:11:07,920
Wow.

325
00:11:08,020 --> 00:11:12,020
We can only comfortably fit 60 or 70 people in this space.

326
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,880
So we actually had to cap the,

327
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:16,620
we capped it at 75,

328
00:11:16,620 --> 00:11:19,180
and then everything over that was waitlist

329
00:11:19,180 --> 00:11:20,560
and didn't get invited.

330
00:11:21,180 --> 00:11:23,820
In reality, I think 40, 45 came.

331
00:11:24,260 --> 00:11:26,640
So not surprising that there's quite a bit of attrition

332
00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,280
on a weeknight on a free event.

333
00:11:29,420 --> 00:11:31,100
So we'll learn from that,

334
00:11:31,180 --> 00:11:33,760
maybe not capital 75, but capital higher.

335
00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:38,320
But still, phenomenal turnout, mostly non-Bitcoiners.

336
00:11:38,420 --> 00:11:39,820
I think everyone had a good experience.

337
00:11:41,180 --> 00:11:43,420
And then, yeah, what was discussed?

338
00:11:43,420 --> 00:11:53,500
Well, Jesse Posner, who's a member at PresidioBitcoin and an entrepreneur here working on Vora, he gave a presentation to begin with.

339
00:11:54,440 --> 00:12:00,420
And it introduced OpenClaw, focused on security considerations.

340
00:12:01,460 --> 00:12:06,920
And then he got into what he and his co-founder Eric are building at Vora.

341
00:12:07,860 --> 00:12:12,980
And what turned out to, we can talk about it, but both Max and I were, I was really proud of Jesse.

342
00:12:12,980 --> 00:12:24,560
I was astounded by the strong vision he painted and how compelling it was, not just to hardcore Bitcoiners, but I think to a broad audience.

343
00:12:24,660 --> 00:12:27,320
I think it was received well by the audience as well.

344
00:12:27,500 --> 00:12:34,780
And I guess we've known Jesse's journey with Fora and where it started, which was very Bitcoin specific.

345
00:12:34,780 --> 00:12:39,620
And even though we're all about Bitcoin, it felt like a small market.

346
00:12:39,620 --> 00:12:44,200
and now where their journeys led them to,

347
00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,340
I think is pretty compelling.

348
00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:46,740
Yeah.

349
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,100
Well, so I mean, I have two things to say on all that.

350
00:12:49,900 --> 00:12:51,780
First of all, I mean, definitely shout out to Jesse.

351
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,180
I've obviously watched him extremely closely

352
00:12:54,180 --> 00:12:56,960
over the last year, I guess, or year or so that it's been.

353
00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,520
And I think both of us would agree

354
00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,520
this was by far the best pitch he's ever given

355
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,080
by like at least one, maybe two orders of magnitude.

356
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,020
Like he and Eric have come so far

357
00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:08,720
in explaining why this matters.

358
00:13:09,620 --> 00:13:15,440
I think though, as one sort of comment about the event itself, you know, I think it's really

359
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:20,740
important to stress what you were just saying. People came out because, you know, for a variety

360
00:13:20,740 --> 00:13:24,400
of reasons that are beyond our control of stuff we've talked about on the show, privately, whatever,

361
00:13:24,660 --> 00:13:29,000
like sadly, Bitcoin has a lot of baggage with the word Bitcoin, all the crypto crap and the scammers

362
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:33,720
and the Web3 and nothing we want to be associated with that has a lot of baggage. And so I think,

363
00:13:33,980 --> 00:13:37,740
you know, whenever you market an event as Bitcoin, people are like, oh, it's just the scammy thing.

364
00:13:37,740 --> 00:13:42,460
And because this was an open claw event, but it was an open claw event focused on Bitcoin

365
00:13:42,460 --> 00:13:45,540
or principles, things like, how do I make sure my data is sovereign?

366
00:13:45,660 --> 00:13:49,900
How do I make sure that eventually I'll be able to have my agent participate in free

367
00:13:49,900 --> 00:13:50,820
markets, things like that?

368
00:13:50,820 --> 00:13:55,780
I think I would say, from what I could tell, everyone left having learned something, getting

369
00:13:55,780 --> 00:13:56,280
excited.

370
00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:01,760
But it was like, I think it just stresses the way for us to really build that bridge

371
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,020
is to, again, let Bitcoin fade to the background.

372
00:14:05,020 --> 00:14:10,600
Like, how do you find where there are new exponential waves in society?

373
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,140
Get people in the door by focusing on that.

374
00:14:13,260 --> 00:14:15,700
And once they're here, realize there's nothing scammy we're talking about.

375
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,320
It's all like, you know, Jesse came across as someone who's an expert cryptographer,

376
00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:22,720
who's, you know, secured billions of dollars at Coinbase at BitKey.

377
00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:25,940
So anyway, so I just think that's like a really important thing for us as a show,

378
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,480
as a community here at PB, is like the more Bitcoin fades to the background,

379
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,760
the more Bitcoin is going to succeed, is my take.

380
00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,980
Let me just triple down on that because I agree.

381
00:14:35,580 --> 00:14:38,720
The way Jesse presented himself and the whole presentation,

382
00:14:39,180 --> 00:14:41,620
it was not a hardcore Bitcoin presentation.

383
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:43,380
Bitcoin really wasn't mentioned at all,

384
00:14:43,380 --> 00:14:46,760
except for where he tied his past experiences

385
00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,500
to the present solution,

386
00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:51,760
which I thought was really well done.

387
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,380
And the reality is that those are super important

388
00:14:56,380 --> 00:14:58,020
to the solution he's building.

389
00:14:59,180 --> 00:15:02,560
Anyway, and I just think we just see

390
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,700
more and more instances of where this is succeeding

391
00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:09,900
in reaching the audience we care about,

392
00:15:09,980 --> 00:15:11,500
just the broader tech industry.

393
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,780
And it doesn't mean we're brushing Bitcoin to the side.

394
00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:17,980
It's just Bitcoin, to us, I think,

395
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,420
is just part of the internet.

396
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:21,720
It's internet money, it's woven.

397
00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:25,220
It's just like we don't hold events for TCP IP

398
00:15:25,220 --> 00:15:28,520
and invite everyone who wants to talk about TCP IP.

399
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:28,960
Exactly.

400
00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:30,080
Hey, TCP IP.

401
00:15:30,340 --> 00:15:31,880
Hello, fellow TCP IP enthusiasts.

402
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,900
And actually, for years now, I write Bitcoin with a small b.

403
00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:40,820
And if you look at the history of the internet, it started off with a capital I,

404
00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:44,780
and it switched to little i because it's just like, it's normal.

405
00:15:45,180 --> 00:15:48,960
Yeah, it's normalized. It's just part of existence, sort of.

406
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,180
And I think, I mean, Bitcoin wasn't there yet, and it still isn't there yet,

407
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,280
but I mean, I'm sort of, that's my small, one small way I'm trying to, like,

408
00:15:57,340 --> 00:15:58,680
will that into the world.

409
00:15:58,840 --> 00:15:59,240
I love that.

410
00:15:59,300 --> 00:15:59,580
Little b.

411
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:00,440
Yeah, I love that.

412
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,560
So the other thing that I want to mention, I think, is a follow-up on that, specifically to Jesse's presentation.

413
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:11,120
I think the biggest thing that changed, obviously, he's improved his thinking on things.

414
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:17,320
And there was a really cool vision about in the future where you could use Bitcoin for things like having your agent participate in free markets, whatnot.

415
00:16:17,860 --> 00:16:22,340
But the biggest thing, and I think this is learning for all of us, was something that was outside of his control.

416
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:29,080
And that was, in the past, if you listen to this pitch six months ago, it was like, oh, people are really going to care about their data and their privacy.

417
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,840
And it's kind of like the Bitcoiners being like, yeah, you're really going to care about money.

418
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,380
It's like no one cares until there's a 2008 financial crisis, then everyone cares a lot.

419
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,500
Or until there's hyperinflation in Argentina, then everyone cares a lot.

420
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:40,420
Same thing with this.

421
00:16:40,540 --> 00:16:42,360
You try to explain to people in the abstract.

422
00:16:42,660 --> 00:16:46,060
It's like there will come a day when you want to have your own hardware to manage your agent.

423
00:16:46,180 --> 00:16:48,720
And it's very hard to think about these things just conceptually.

424
00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:52,960
But because of the open call explosion, that to me is what gave them their window.

425
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,480
Now, you know, there's a concept.

426
00:16:56,220 --> 00:16:59,900
Anjali showed me this YC podcast with the Cloud Code guy.

427
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:00,480
It's really good.

428
00:17:00,540 --> 00:17:01,360
I highly recommend it.

429
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,440
And one of the things he kept stressing in building Cloud Code was this concept of latent

430
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,040
demand, which is like, if you're doing a startup or anything, he literally said this like 10

431
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:10,440
times in the podcast over and over.

432
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,480
If you can find an activity that people are already doing and you can just make it easier,

433
00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,420
faster, better for them to do that, that's how you went.

434
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,260
Trying to create new activity out of nowhere, very, very, very difficult.

435
00:17:19,360 --> 00:17:20,780
Not impossible, but very, very difficult.

436
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,400
And in this case, with Jesse and Eric,

437
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,780
now that normies are trying to run their own agents

438
00:17:28,780 --> 00:17:30,200
to go out there and mess around the internet,

439
00:17:30,540 --> 00:17:32,300
Mac minis are flying off the shelf.

440
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:33,260
There is latent demand.

441
00:17:33,380 --> 00:17:34,780
There's a real activity people are doing,

442
00:17:34,860 --> 00:17:37,120
which is buying new hardware to run their agents.

443
00:17:37,260 --> 00:17:38,920
And then Jesse just gave a fabulous presentation

444
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:39,620
where he's like, look,

445
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,840
all these people think they're doing something safe

446
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:42,620
by putting it on their computer

447
00:17:42,620 --> 00:17:43,880
and then give it access to their Gmail

448
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,500
and their credit card and their social security number.

449
00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:46,800
Like, hmm, what could go wrong?

450
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,600
And by the end of that, I mean, I was pretty like,

451
00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:50,740
oh shit, like I would,

452
00:17:50,780 --> 00:17:54,880
never run one of these things. I think a lot of people felt that way as well. And Jesse's

453
00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,540
sort of response is, if you want to be able to run your own agent and have an agent that

454
00:17:58,540 --> 00:18:02,760
really represents you, he has this concept of the fiduciary duty of agent, you need confidentiality

455
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:07,600
and you need to make sure it's basically air-gapped. And yeah, anyways, I think that the problem,

456
00:18:07,940 --> 00:18:10,500
and then he went through a solution, which is very interesting, having an open source

457
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:14,760
model running locally that can then deal with models in the cloud, which I thought was very

458
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,980
interesting as well. So you could have the best of cloud with your own local open source model.

459
00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:26,100
But the big thing that changed now is I think people are in a state where they're ready to have their own models.

460
00:18:26,460 --> 00:18:30,160
They're already buying unique hardware because they think it's going to protect them, and it doesn't.

461
00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:31,380
And now you can solve that problem.

462
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:36,120
Well, and I don't think we've even really framed the whole opportunity to solve the problem yet.

463
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:37,460
Yeah, I didn't make it to builders.

464
00:18:37,620 --> 00:18:43,460
So right now, people have a lot of data exposed to in the cloud.

465
00:18:43,460 --> 00:18:46,200
you have a lot of data with Google

466
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,540
with Facebook, Instagram

467
00:18:48,540 --> 00:18:50,620
Amazon, TikTok

468
00:18:50,620 --> 00:18:51,140
etc.

469
00:18:52,940 --> 00:18:54,540
And there's

470
00:18:54,540 --> 00:18:56,640
security and privacy concerns

471
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:58,720
with that. The evidence

472
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:00,820
is people generally don't

473
00:19:00,820 --> 00:19:02,660
care. People have gotten

474
00:19:02,660 --> 00:19:04,900
so much value out of these services and they haven't

475
00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:06,840
felt enough pain from the

476
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:08,940
security and privacy trade-offs

477
00:19:08,940 --> 00:19:09,360
they've made.

478
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:10,960
But

479
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,280
there's certainly

480
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,740
people, and we've discussed it for years,

481
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:17,520
but there's people who have a vision for bringing

482
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:18,840
all that data onto your own

483
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:20,120
personal server.

484
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:22,960
And there's certainly been startups that have

485
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,120
attempted to do that. I remember, Dika,

486
00:19:25,220 --> 00:19:26,500
you've definitely met with some of them

487
00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:28,720
maybe five, six, seven years ago.

488
00:19:30,780 --> 00:19:31,220
But

489
00:19:31,220 --> 00:19:33,180
I think OpenClaw,

490
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,240
as Max just pointed out, is this

491
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,020
moment where people are, I mean,

492
00:19:37,020 --> 00:19:39,100
just the power of AI, and then

493
00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:40,980
the audaciousness of

494
00:19:40,980 --> 00:19:42,900
OpenClaw giving this immense

495
00:19:42,900 --> 00:19:46,920
power with no safety controls at all, are

496
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,980
starting to show the power of

497
00:19:50,980 --> 00:19:54,260
if you hoover up all this data about yourself,

498
00:19:54,940 --> 00:19:58,640
put it on a computer you control, you have control of that data now,

499
00:19:58,740 --> 00:20:02,960
and then the power that comes with it. Because now you have all that data in one place and it can be

500
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,180
analyzed by, you can have a local AM model analyze it

501
00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:11,020
and have that, it's just super powerful. So as Jesse

502
00:20:11,020 --> 00:20:16,020
said in this presentation, this will be so powerful, so seductive that like everyone's

503
00:20:16,020 --> 00:20:19,820
going to do it. Like you are at a serious disadvantage in life if you don't do this.

504
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:25,240
And then when you do do it, then you have like a digital me. Like, you know, you have

505
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,520
a second version of yourself and it's like more powerful than it's ever been created

506
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:36,380
before. So that's amazing, but it's also extremely scary if you're subject to like

507
00:20:36,380 --> 00:20:38,660
prompt injection attacks and like, you know,

508
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,520
just revealing all that information to the internet,

509
00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:46,640
it could be absolutely devastating.

510
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:52,480
So that's sort of the premise of what Bora is trying to solve now is

511
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:57,740
enable that power, but do it in a secure way.

512
00:20:58,060 --> 00:20:59,040
With fiduciary duties.

513
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:04,920
So it's like a wrapper on OpenClaw that lets you run in a more hardened way?

514
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,020
Is that a reasonable way to summarize what's happening?

515
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:09,820
I think it's personal hardware.

516
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,140
It's more like a personal server.

517
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,480
And you could run something like an OpenClaw,

518
00:21:13,620 --> 00:21:16,280
though I think he's thinking maybe beyond OpenClaw specifically,

519
00:21:16,460 --> 00:21:20,800
but this idea like you want your personal assistant air-gapped on hardware

520
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,700
that you can prove is air-gapped.

521
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:24,580
I see.

522
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,980
And then you'd mentioned kind of the, like an open source local LLM

523
00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:30,320
that would be running on that hardware.

524
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,820
And then it would be reaching maybe another OpenClaw instance

525
00:21:33,820 --> 00:21:36,880
or somewhere else that has maybe other types of LMs in the cloud?

526
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,220
Well, this is, yeah, I mean, I didn't fully understand all this architecture,

527
00:21:40,380 --> 00:21:42,840
so this would be a good sort of maybe a chance to have Jesse.

528
00:21:43,180 --> 00:21:44,900
Maybe I should know their ideas from the edge of them or something.

529
00:21:46,100 --> 00:21:52,840
But basically, yes, your open source local model is kind of your, like, protector,

530
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,860
like your, like, DK's guardian, I think is what he called it.

531
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,600
But like, like your bodyguard.

532
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,380
But that AI, you know, no matter how good local gets,

533
00:22:02,380 --> 00:22:03,940
there's probably always going to be better ones in the cloud.

534
00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:07,540
And so the idea is how can that AI communicator orchestrate

535
00:22:07,540 --> 00:22:09,780
like a fleet of like cloud code bots

536
00:22:09,780 --> 00:22:14,140
that operate in such a way where they can build things for you

537
00:22:14,140 --> 00:22:16,520
but without having access to your like private keys

538
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:17,660
or social security number.

539
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,820
One big question I have in this whole thing

540
00:22:21,820 --> 00:22:25,560
and without necessarily fully hearing about the architecture,

541
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,100
maybe it's not even clear yet.

542
00:22:28,580 --> 00:22:31,120
But one thing I think I must have had, you know,

543
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:35,800
four or five hours of calls with various entrepreneurs working on effectively like

544
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:44,620
open claw on your on your desktop right in some form and just in the last week and one thing that

545
00:22:44,620 --> 00:22:49,360
i i keep asking i think it's super important but nobody really seems to have thought much about is

546
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:56,660
how should auth work yeah and so is like today i use one password to manage all my passwords i have

547
00:22:56,660 --> 00:22:59,360
good passwords and unique passwords on every website, etc.

548
00:23:00,140 --> 00:23:07,340
And I think I've not installed OpenClaw locally on my actual daily driver Mac because I'm,

549
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:09,780
you know, all the problems.

550
00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:11,900
But I've done it in the cloud, but it's not useful in the cloud, right?

551
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,800
So meaning if it's just some cloud instance, I can do stuff with it, but I can't actually

552
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,120
do stuff with my stuff, which is kind of frustrating.

553
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:20,820
So what is the answer to the auth story?

554
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,040
How should auth evolve for this era?

555
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,460
I mean, I think that's a major question.

556
00:23:26,460 --> 00:23:28,040
I think different people are taking different approaches.

557
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,660
I think Anthony and Marks are doing something slightly different with what

558
00:23:30,660 --> 00:23:33,300
they're building at Maple AI, which is more cloud first.

559
00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:35,220
They probably thought more about the auth.

560
00:23:35,220 --> 00:23:38,000
From what I understand from Jesse's perspective, though,

561
00:23:38,340 --> 00:23:41,160
he thinks that like all of these like things you're seeing right now with people

562
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:53,718
claiming oh we give you better off and safety and stuff He thinks that basically all like the Ethereum version It all like just a baby theater Security theater exactly And so his point is like if you actually want what you talking about

563
00:23:53,778 --> 00:23:55,978
you need to like have like air gap chips.

564
00:23:56,278 --> 00:23:58,238
Like, I mean, this is where he started talking about like,

565
00:23:58,258 --> 00:24:00,478
you know, fair day cages and like basically going

566
00:24:00,478 --> 00:24:02,718
kind of hardcore Bitcoin or ethos.

567
00:24:02,898 --> 00:24:04,038
But I think he's right, which is like,

568
00:24:04,058 --> 00:24:06,198
you need to be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt

569
00:24:06,198 --> 00:24:08,518
that like basically your private keys are,

570
00:24:09,358 --> 00:24:10,618
or whatever the secrets are,

571
00:24:10,738 --> 00:24:12,998
air gap from everything else at the hardware level

572
00:24:12,998 --> 00:24:14,598
and be able to have the attestation set.

573
00:24:15,138 --> 00:24:16,198
Sure, so I get that.

574
00:24:16,258 --> 00:24:19,098
Let's assume that that is true and built and available.

575
00:24:19,618 --> 00:24:21,878
But then, you know, let's say I have a task,

576
00:24:21,958 --> 00:24:23,758
like I have an open claw that's local

577
00:24:23,758 --> 00:24:24,818
and I want to say something like,

578
00:24:25,298 --> 00:24:29,118
hey, you know, go gather up all of my financial statements

579
00:24:29,118 --> 00:24:31,178
and all the details I need from, you know,

580
00:24:31,878 --> 00:24:34,838
a dozen different providers so I can send it to my tax guy

581
00:24:34,838 --> 00:24:35,858
or just do my taxes.

582
00:24:36,358 --> 00:24:39,738
So I need to click around a bunch of websites,

583
00:24:39,878 --> 00:24:42,098
log into a bunch of stuff, grab a bunch of documents, etc.

584
00:24:42,098 --> 00:24:43,978
and so is there

585
00:24:43,978 --> 00:24:46,538
like today I would need to use one password

586
00:24:46,538 --> 00:24:48,918
I'd need those credentials to be able to log into those websites

587
00:24:48,918 --> 00:24:50,978
is there a path for how that

588
00:24:50,978 --> 00:24:52,658
should work in an open claw world

589
00:24:52,658 --> 00:24:54,858
I think that's maybe

590
00:24:54,858 --> 00:24:56,738
part of their secret sauce but I'm not sure

591
00:24:56,738 --> 00:24:58,678
that's something

592
00:24:58,678 --> 00:25:00,298
that would be good to hear more on

593
00:25:00,298 --> 00:25:01,918
so

594
00:25:01,918 --> 00:25:04,758
one other thought that I want to mention is actually there's a couple things

595
00:25:04,758 --> 00:25:06,758
that are coming up in the chat but I do want

596
00:25:06,758 --> 00:25:08,918
to pause though and say why I think there's certainly

597
00:25:08,918 --> 00:25:10,258
a path to having

598
00:25:10,258 --> 00:25:13,198
your own sort of fiduciary AI.

599
00:25:13,298 --> 00:25:14,298
And I do think there's going to be a spectrum.

600
00:25:14,458 --> 00:25:15,838
I think there's going to be some people that want it,

601
00:25:16,158 --> 00:25:18,258
you know, sort of the Bitcoin paranoid version,

602
00:25:18,498 --> 00:25:21,258
like attestations, physical hardware, Faraday gauges.

603
00:25:21,718 --> 00:25:23,658
I also think that like Maple AI,

604
00:25:23,778 --> 00:25:24,798
what they're doing is, you know,

605
00:25:24,898 --> 00:25:26,278
that's kind of like that middle ground

606
00:25:26,278 --> 00:25:28,438
where you're still trusting a cloud service,

607
00:25:28,438 --> 00:25:30,398
but in theory, as long as you trust Amazon,

608
00:25:30,778 --> 00:25:32,838
you know, and they're using their trusted execution environment.

609
00:25:33,038 --> 00:25:34,238
And I know Anthony and those guys

610
00:25:34,238 --> 00:25:36,878
are going to have some new updates on that front as well.

611
00:25:36,918 --> 00:25:38,218
So I think you're going to see a whole spectrum

612
00:25:38,218 --> 00:25:39,058
and different people,

613
00:25:39,058 --> 00:25:41,498
depending on their level of paranoia,

614
00:25:41,618 --> 00:25:43,718
their level of whatever secrets they're guarding.

615
00:25:44,258 --> 00:25:46,458
Maybe we'll choose different versions there.

616
00:25:46,858 --> 00:25:47,858
But I also thought that,

617
00:25:48,678 --> 00:25:51,058
I forget his real name now, but good enough.

618
00:25:52,618 --> 00:25:53,098
Damien.

619
00:25:53,198 --> 00:25:53,998
Damien, thank you, yeah.

620
00:25:55,738 --> 00:25:57,178
That Damien's,

621
00:25:59,178 --> 00:26:01,978
his take on how he's using open clause

622
00:26:01,978 --> 00:26:02,898
was very interesting to me,

623
00:26:03,198 --> 00:26:04,638
which is basically to say,

624
00:26:05,138 --> 00:26:07,778
it's one thing you need all these protections

625
00:26:07,778 --> 00:26:09,418
if you're trying to create the second me,

626
00:26:09,518 --> 00:26:11,038
the second DK Steve or Max Trevor.

627
00:26:11,538 --> 00:26:12,718
But his take has been like,

628
00:26:12,818 --> 00:26:13,998
don't create the second me,

629
00:26:14,138 --> 00:26:15,718
just only focus for now

630
00:26:15,718 --> 00:26:17,258
on just creating new entities.

631
00:26:18,058 --> 00:26:19,418
And yeah, he basically talked about

632
00:26:19,418 --> 00:26:20,898
how whenever he's running these agents,

633
00:26:21,218 --> 00:26:24,178
he gives them their own GitHub accounts.

634
00:26:24,298 --> 00:26:24,898
They don't get his.

635
00:26:25,638 --> 00:26:26,898
And I think, honestly,

636
00:26:27,098 --> 00:26:29,358
until all this other stuff gets worked out,

637
00:26:29,698 --> 00:26:31,658
that to me seems like by far the best idea.

638
00:26:31,778 --> 00:26:33,798
I would not be trying to create a second me

639
00:26:33,798 --> 00:26:36,078
until Orin, Maple, and whoever else

640
00:26:36,078 --> 00:26:36,998
has all the solutions ready.

641
00:26:36,998 --> 00:26:39,578
I think Damien's approach is probably best.

642
00:26:41,498 --> 00:26:41,598
Yeah.

643
00:26:41,818 --> 00:26:44,518
So, I mean, overall, I thought Builder was amazing last night.

644
00:26:45,138 --> 00:26:47,138
Haley did a great job sort of making it all happen.

645
00:26:48,218 --> 00:26:49,738
Jesse was crucial to it.

646
00:26:49,858 --> 00:26:50,018
Yeah.

647
00:26:50,138 --> 00:26:52,198
Because we, I mean, it's one thing to market

648
00:26:52,198 --> 00:26:54,318
is like open cloud or non-Bitcoin stuff,

649
00:26:54,378 --> 00:26:55,598
but we got to deliver too.

650
00:26:55,858 --> 00:26:56,518
And we did.

651
00:26:56,758 --> 00:26:58,618
Jesse delivered, like it was quality content.

652
00:26:58,658 --> 00:27:00,338
And not just Jesse, I mean, Jesse, Damien,

653
00:27:00,598 --> 00:27:02,078
and Dustin afterwards,

654
00:27:02,198 --> 00:27:03,398
they all did a panel together as well.

655
00:27:03,458 --> 00:27:04,598
It was great, like all the way around.

656
00:27:04,818 --> 00:27:05,638
Yeah, for sure.

657
00:27:05,638 --> 00:27:07,838
So two things I want to call out from the chat

658
00:27:07,838 --> 00:27:08,658
because I think this is interesting.

659
00:27:08,898 --> 00:27:10,978
One is from Austin.

660
00:27:11,078 --> 00:27:11,718
What's up, Austin?

661
00:27:11,958 --> 00:27:12,598
Long time.

662
00:27:13,878 --> 00:27:15,758
Day Zero PBJ guy.

663
00:27:16,198 --> 00:27:16,558
He says,

664
00:27:16,638 --> 00:27:18,498
PBJ needs a nice vending machine

665
00:27:18,498 --> 00:27:19,638
that only accepts lighting payments.

666
00:27:19,738 --> 00:27:20,118
I agree.

667
00:27:20,258 --> 00:27:22,058
We're telling people we want them to get spending wads.

668
00:27:22,438 --> 00:27:23,978
We should do something during the show.

669
00:27:24,178 --> 00:27:26,018
And DK, maybe this gets back to your ideas.

670
00:27:26,458 --> 00:27:28,738
From the Noster News days or whatever,

671
00:27:28,738 --> 00:27:31,438
you've been wanting to do some kind of game show or something.

672
00:27:31,878 --> 00:27:34,558
We should find some way to integrate into our show

673
00:27:34,558 --> 00:27:36,458
something every week where a lightning

674
00:27:36,458 --> 00:27:38,518
beam is involved. It could be trivia, it could be

675
00:27:38,518 --> 00:27:39,998
a game, it could be a voting

676
00:27:39,998 --> 00:27:42,578
mechanism, but like, we should

677
00:27:42,578 --> 00:27:44,618
walk the walk here. So if you guys

678
00:27:44,618 --> 00:27:46,618
have ideas of what you want to see us build, Austin

679
00:27:46,618 --> 00:27:48,598
or others, I agree, it's

680
00:27:48,598 --> 00:27:50,638
beyond time that we do something with lightning on the show.

681
00:27:51,258 --> 00:27:52,618
Right, I agree. I like

682
00:27:52,618 --> 00:27:54,618
that. We've got that prediction

683
00:27:54,618 --> 00:27:56,758
market, you know, I built that prediction market software

684
00:27:56,758 --> 00:27:58,278
that's up on GitHub, you can actually

685
00:27:58,278 --> 00:28:00,638
use, and so we could run a prediction market

686
00:28:00,638 --> 00:28:02,478
where people have to predict something,

687
00:28:02,698 --> 00:28:04,518
take either side of it, and then we sort of pay out

688
00:28:04,518 --> 00:28:05,298
at the end of the show.

689
00:28:06,258 --> 00:28:06,438
Sure.

690
00:28:06,738 --> 00:28:06,878
Yeah.

691
00:28:06,978 --> 00:28:08,098
I mean, we could try different things.

692
00:28:08,198 --> 00:28:08,978
I think that'd be interesting

693
00:28:08,978 --> 00:28:09,558
to try for next week.

694
00:28:09,938 --> 00:28:10,978
The other thing I want to call out

695
00:28:10,978 --> 00:28:11,618
is from Vinny,

696
00:28:11,738 --> 00:28:12,958
another longtime listener here.

697
00:28:13,158 --> 00:28:14,558
And I love this definition.

698
00:28:14,718 --> 00:28:15,238
This is great.

699
00:28:15,978 --> 00:28:17,838
Talking about as Bitcoin fades

700
00:28:17,838 --> 00:28:18,378
in the background.

701
00:28:18,498 --> 00:28:18,898
Because at first,

702
00:28:18,938 --> 00:28:19,818
the Bitcoin is going to be sad

703
00:28:19,818 --> 00:28:20,258
to hear that.

704
00:28:20,318 --> 00:28:21,338
But I think his definition

705
00:28:21,338 --> 00:28:21,898
is perfect.

706
00:28:22,398 --> 00:28:24,158
Quote, Douglas Adams once said,

707
00:28:24,498 --> 00:28:25,618
I just moved.

708
00:28:26,078 --> 00:28:27,498
I think a nerd is a person

709
00:28:27,498 --> 00:28:28,938
who uses the telephone

710
00:28:28,938 --> 00:28:30,218
to talk to other people

711
00:28:30,218 --> 00:28:31,338
about telephones.

712
00:28:31,338 --> 00:28:38,018
it's time that we move past the bitcoin nerds now i know steve is the biggest bitcoin nerd so

713
00:28:38,018 --> 00:28:43,438
the fact that he's saying it's time to move past yeah yeah i'm yeah i'm taking my title and just

714
00:28:43,438 --> 00:28:47,938
throwing it in the trash it served you well and now we're we're entering a new epoch

715
00:28:47,938 --> 00:28:57,758
okay let's see um well i know we have several more things to talk about i know the lightning

716
00:28:57,758 --> 00:28:58,638
report.

717
00:28:58,758 --> 00:28:59,578
Yes, definitely.

718
00:28:59,978 --> 00:29:00,718
Let's talk about that.

719
00:29:00,818 --> 00:29:02,798
So shout out to the River team.

720
00:29:02,918 --> 00:29:06,318
They always, in my opinion, put out the absolute best Bitcoin research.

721
00:29:07,038 --> 00:29:12,578
I think, you know, they're the most trusted name in Bitcoin and the research backs it up.

722
00:29:13,058 --> 00:29:14,438
So they just put out a report.

723
00:29:14,618 --> 00:29:15,758
Did you guys see the full report yet?

724
00:29:16,298 --> 00:29:16,938
I did, yeah.

725
00:29:16,938 --> 00:29:17,818
There's one sort of adoption.

726
00:29:17,978 --> 00:29:19,078
Lightning was a part of that.

727
00:29:19,658 --> 00:29:21,578
The Lightning piece is what interested me the most.

728
00:29:21,758 --> 00:29:25,598
But if you guys haven't checked it out, I think maybe they put it out two or three days

729
00:29:25,598 --> 00:29:27,718
ago and then the Lightning piece came out a little bit before that.

730
00:29:27,758 --> 00:29:30,678
there's a lot of interesting things in there, a lot.

731
00:29:31,098 --> 00:29:31,998
Before we get to the lightning,

732
00:29:32,298 --> 00:29:33,478
a couple of things I want to call out.

733
00:29:33,978 --> 00:29:35,618
You know, one is sort of price is crashing.

734
00:29:35,738 --> 00:29:37,158
Everyone's like, ah, is Bitcoin dying?

735
00:29:38,038 --> 00:29:38,758
Hopefully not.

736
00:29:38,898 --> 00:29:42,158
But their larger point is basically like old school whales

737
00:29:42,158 --> 00:29:43,978
still own tremendous amount of supply.

738
00:29:44,498 --> 00:29:47,278
And over time, you know, more and more institutions

739
00:29:47,278 --> 00:29:50,558
from treasury companies, traditional companies, funds.

740
00:29:51,218 --> 00:29:51,618
Wow.

741
00:29:51,778 --> 00:29:53,998
Just so everyone knows, this is a live show.

742
00:29:54,378 --> 00:29:55,558
Actually, at the Golden Gate Bridge,

743
00:29:55,838 --> 00:29:57,318
we hear a very loud...

744
00:29:57,318 --> 00:29:57,978
Is that a foghorn?

745
00:29:58,398 --> 00:29:58,978
A foghorn.

746
00:29:59,118 --> 00:29:59,918
There's no fog.

747
00:30:01,158 --> 00:30:01,838
You never know.

748
00:30:02,338 --> 00:30:04,298
Anyways, yeah, we're doing it live.

749
00:30:04,878 --> 00:30:07,738
But his whole point is that basically like, you know,

750
00:30:07,818 --> 00:30:09,098
institutional adoption is happening.

751
00:30:09,258 --> 00:30:11,758
We're kind of watching this phase where like the early adopters

752
00:30:11,758 --> 00:30:16,718
are transferring their Bitcoin to, you know, companies, funds, countries,

753
00:30:16,918 --> 00:30:18,658
and like that's just kind of like sort of expected.

754
00:30:18,818 --> 00:30:20,178
And there's a lot of good stats around that.

755
00:30:20,618 --> 00:30:24,718
One thing that actually made me very, I don't know,

756
00:30:24,718 --> 00:30:31,158
feel much better about Bitcoin was the, uh, the hash rate, uh, report. Um, I've been spending a

757
00:30:31,158 --> 00:30:34,918
lot of time talking with some of my entrepreneurs in my portfolio, you know, many of whom have

758
00:30:34,918 --> 00:30:39,998
focused, I've shifted their focus more to AI. And I think that's a much more, a longer,

759
00:30:40,098 --> 00:30:43,258
more interesting discussion. I've also had LPs and people reaching out to me being like, Hey,

760
00:30:43,338 --> 00:30:48,958
like, is Bitcoin going to die? Because all of the miners are like shifting to AI now. Um, and,

761
00:30:49,078 --> 00:30:53,778
um, you know, you never know, but probably not. Um, but, but what we are seeing that's interesting

762
00:30:53,778 --> 00:30:59,878
to me is, you know, even though the big sort of like public miners and people in Texas are shifting

763
00:30:59,878 --> 00:31:04,738
primarily to AI, AI is the buyer of first resort. Those ASICs are not just going offline, right?

764
00:31:04,778 --> 00:31:07,998
They're getting moved to the edge of the network. And that's like a big idea I think people need to

765
00:31:07,998 --> 00:31:13,058
understand is like, if a public company can make more money doing AI training or inference, they

766
00:31:13,058 --> 00:31:17,738
should do AI training or inference. Then as I'm seeing, and I'm seeing this from multiple reports,

767
00:31:17,838 --> 00:31:22,278
public and private, you're seeing those ASICs then get bought and you're seeing a transfer.

768
00:31:22,278 --> 00:31:37,178
And I think one interesting thing to see was the percentage of mining going up into countries you might not expect like Ethiopia because they have this giant hydro dam. And Ethiopia is not going to get underwritten to do AI inferencer training for a variety of reasons, at least not anytime soon.

769
00:31:37,178 --> 00:32:02,398
And so, you know, it makes a lot of sense now that like, okay, well, maybe the miners are leaving Texas and they're going to Ethiopia or they're going to, you know, Brazil or wherever you have these kind of like pockets of like really cheap or free energy on the edge. Solar farms, the Middle East, like all these things are going to pop up. And so I think in the long run, that's a good thing because the network gets more decentralized. But like, it's critical to note that hash rate in the long run, you know, even if it dips a bit, it's not dying.

770
00:32:02,398 --> 00:32:13,238
In fact, I thought the most hopeful thing from that whole report was showing, you know, in 2021, I think we were still at like 100x hash per second, and now we're still over one zeta hash. So 10x that.

771
00:32:13,238 --> 00:32:16,778
So just two quick, I mean, one point, just reinforce what you said.

772
00:32:16,918 --> 00:32:22,798
It's a good thing if large miners are being distributed to smaller players for decentralization, like you just said.

773
00:32:23,898 --> 00:32:32,758
And number two is, it's a completely false argument to say Bitcoin is going to die because miners are moving to AI.

774
00:32:33,478 --> 00:32:38,578
Those companies might move to AI, but fundamentally, why will new miners enter?

775
00:32:38,998 --> 00:32:40,618
Because profits are to be had.

776
00:32:40,618 --> 00:32:46,718
So as long as the Bitcoin, it's a function of the Bitcoin price, and then longer term, it's a function of Bitcoin's usage.

777
00:32:46,978 --> 00:32:47,058
Right.

778
00:32:47,298 --> 00:32:51,418
Because you need Bitcoin transaction demand and you need transaction fees.

779
00:32:51,638 --> 00:32:51,738
Right.

780
00:32:51,998 --> 00:32:52,938
That's all that matters.

781
00:32:53,178 --> 00:32:53,278
Right.

782
00:32:53,298 --> 00:33:05,158
So, I mean, still for the next few decades, as long as the Bitcoin price maintains or increases, there will be mining because profits are to be had.

783
00:33:05,318 --> 00:33:05,498
Right.

784
00:33:05,498 --> 00:33:12,038
And then longer term, there needs to be Bitcoin transaction demand, which we've talked about at length on this show maybe six months ago.

785
00:33:12,278 --> 00:33:12,358
Right.

786
00:33:12,718 --> 00:33:25,318
And we sort of, you know, game theory scenario planned out like, well, what if, because it's absolutely a concern right now that the mempool is near empty.

787
00:33:25,858 --> 00:33:32,338
Like the demand for transactions to fit into the available block spaces is not great right now.

788
00:33:32,338 --> 00:33:37,238
So there's plenty of time for that to increase, but it does need to increase.

789
00:33:37,478 --> 00:33:37,558
Right.

790
00:33:37,658 --> 00:33:39,718
Or Bitcoin will die, but it has nothing to do with AI.

791
00:33:40,118 --> 00:33:42,238
It has everything to do with demand for Bitcoin.

792
00:33:42,518 --> 00:33:42,658
Right.

793
00:33:42,998 --> 00:33:44,218
Yeah, I have a question about this.

794
00:33:44,498 --> 00:33:48,938
This may have been asked before, and it may be some sort of people raise it as FUD.

795
00:33:48,978 --> 00:33:49,998
I'm not raising it as FUD.

796
00:33:50,118 --> 00:33:51,638
I genuinely am curious about it.

797
00:33:51,638 --> 00:34:07,278
But if the Lightning network were to be very broadly used and lots of channels were already opened on L1 and they didn't necessarily need to be closed, would that reduce demand?

798
00:34:07,678 --> 00:34:12,038
I mean, in the long run, is there a chance that maybe we reduce demand for block space?

799
00:34:12,038 --> 00:34:14,578
It's a great question and discussion topic.

800
00:34:14,919 --> 00:34:23,598
I always find it funny because I get two different skeptical questions thrown at me from both ends.

801
00:34:24,158 --> 00:34:29,478
One is lightning doesn't scale because it takes up too much block space.

802
00:34:29,878 --> 00:34:30,318
Right, right.

803
00:34:30,618 --> 00:34:36,959
Because if you try to scale it to hundreds of millions or billions of people, it doesn't fit in the block space.

804
00:34:37,038 --> 00:34:40,959
There'd be too much demand for block space, too much mining fees.

805
00:34:42,038 --> 00:34:44,358
And then on the other hand, I get the question that you just asked.

806
00:34:44,398 --> 00:34:47,698
And they're both legitimate questions, but they're literally the opposite of each other.

807
00:34:47,878 --> 00:34:52,758
Because the question you asked is like, does it obviate the need for layer one and block space?

808
00:34:52,858 --> 00:34:53,978
There will be no demand.

809
00:34:54,158 --> 00:34:56,738
So is it there will be no demand or there'll be too much demand?

810
00:34:56,738 --> 00:34:59,378
And then there's competing forces for that.

811
00:34:59,758 --> 00:35:04,878
So there's no doubt in my mind, a successful Lightning Network that grows in adoption,

812
00:35:05,058 --> 00:35:07,459
and we're going to talk about the numbers and it is growing in adoption,

813
00:35:07,459 --> 00:35:11,939
increases the demand for block space.

814
00:35:12,778 --> 00:35:13,738
I have no doubt about that.

815
00:35:13,818 --> 00:35:15,718
I mean, so personally, I'm in the camp of,

816
00:35:16,238 --> 00:35:18,718
I think it will create too much demand.

817
00:35:19,098 --> 00:35:22,818
And then, so I'm more worried about the too much demand

818
00:35:22,818 --> 00:35:26,878
and high fees versus the not enough demand.

819
00:35:27,478 --> 00:35:30,118
The only way there won't be enough demand

820
00:35:30,118 --> 00:35:31,658
is simply if people are not doing,

821
00:35:32,598 --> 00:35:34,038
using Lightning for Bitcoin payments.

822
00:35:34,378 --> 00:35:36,138
Right. And I mean, to get to that question,

823
00:35:36,138 --> 00:35:40,638
I mean, my, and I guess before we jump in the numbers, my bias has always been, I mean,

824
00:35:40,658 --> 00:35:41,618
it's all contextual, right?

825
00:35:41,658 --> 00:35:44,878
Like in the short run, yeah, maybe it does reduce some activity.

826
00:35:45,238 --> 00:35:48,118
But in the long run, I think it's more like Jevin's paradox, like the cheaper things get,

827
00:35:48,258 --> 00:35:51,358
I think it's like net new, for the most part, net new payments you would see on Lightning

828
00:35:51,358 --> 00:35:52,598
that otherwise would not have happened.

829
00:35:52,598 --> 00:36:00,198
And actually, maybe something that's maybe not obvious to folks, Lightning scales very

830
00:36:00,198 --> 00:36:02,158
well on number

831
00:36:02,158 --> 00:36:02,778
of payments.

832
00:36:03,658 --> 00:36:06,338
And it scales poorly

833
00:36:06,338 --> 00:36:08,318
or at least relatively not as well

834
00:36:08,318 --> 00:36:10,459
at number of wallets

835
00:36:10,459 --> 00:36:11,678
or users.

836
00:36:12,038 --> 00:36:14,238
I think number of wallets is a better way to say it because there might be AI

837
00:36:14,238 --> 00:36:14,638
as well.

838
00:36:15,838 --> 00:36:18,318
Because the number of wallets you have

839
00:36:18,318 --> 00:36:20,398
is limited by

840
00:36:20,398 --> 00:36:21,678
the block space

841
00:36:21,678 --> 00:36:23,718
on the Bitcoin blockchain.

842
00:36:24,258 --> 00:36:25,998
Whereas the number of payments you can do,

843
00:36:25,998 --> 00:36:27,959
there really is no limit.

844
00:36:28,398 --> 00:36:29,798
The only limiting factor there

845
00:36:29,798 --> 00:36:34,598
if we have channels opened with each other

846
00:36:34,598 --> 00:36:37,278
and we want to make payments, they can become imbalanced.

847
00:36:37,939 --> 00:36:42,018
And I might have to rebalance it by going on-chain,

848
00:36:42,158 --> 00:36:44,138
which then gets into scaling issues again.

849
00:36:44,138 --> 00:36:47,959
But if you have a naturally balancing wallet,

850
00:36:49,278 --> 00:36:51,098
you don't ever have to go on-chain anymore.

851
00:36:51,238 --> 00:36:54,098
You can do a substantial number of payments.

852
00:36:54,218 --> 00:36:55,419
So it scales very well with payments.

853
00:36:55,419 --> 00:37:00,478
Whereas something like Arc or Spark is kind of the opposite.

854
00:37:00,658 --> 00:37:05,858
They scale very well for number of wallets, basically unlimited.

855
00:37:07,078 --> 00:37:12,318
But if you have high payment volume, then they can start to break down.

856
00:37:12,978 --> 00:37:18,638
When you say naturally balancing, is that just a feature of sort of how you use a wallet?

857
00:37:19,658 --> 00:37:22,138
Or kind of what kinds of transactions you're involved in?

858
00:37:22,138 --> 00:37:22,658
Is that what you mean?

859
00:37:22,798 --> 00:37:24,778
Or is naturally balancing some other term of art?

860
00:37:25,419 --> 00:37:43,338
Yeah, just, I mean, to put it simply, let's say, just take a consumer wallet, and let's say I get paid from my job once a week, and then that, you know, income goes directly into my wallet, and then I make purchases throughout the week.

861
00:37:43,338 --> 00:37:45,818
let's say I make 100 units

862
00:37:45,818 --> 00:37:47,638
in a week so I get

863
00:37:47,638 --> 00:37:49,778
110 to me and then over the course of the week

864
00:37:49,778 --> 00:37:51,318
I spend out 100

865
00:37:51,318 --> 00:37:53,498
and then that cycle repeats

866
00:37:53,498 --> 00:37:55,658
that's a perfect cycle

867
00:37:55,658 --> 00:37:57,998
it automatically rebalances itself

868
00:37:57,998 --> 00:37:59,959
I would never have to go on chain again

869
00:37:59,959 --> 00:38:01,498
now

870
00:38:01,498 --> 00:38:03,978
that is absolutely

871
00:38:03,978 --> 00:38:05,919
a possible scenario but not

872
00:38:05,919 --> 00:38:07,478
everything's clean like that

873
00:38:07,478 --> 00:38:09,138
let's take the opposite example

874
00:38:09,138 --> 00:38:10,939
let's say I'm not spending

875
00:38:10,939 --> 00:38:12,878
let's just say I'm a saver

876
00:38:12,878 --> 00:38:16,459
but I want to take self-custody

877
00:38:16,459 --> 00:38:19,038
and I'm dollar cost averaging.

878
00:38:19,198 --> 00:38:21,618
So every week, let's say I buy $50 of Bitcoin.

879
00:38:22,278 --> 00:38:24,698
And let's say on-chain fees are not what they are today

880
00:38:24,698 --> 00:38:25,939
but they're actually like $5 or $10.

881
00:38:26,198 --> 00:38:28,178
Well, I don't want to pay $5 or $10 of fees

882
00:38:28,178 --> 00:38:31,538
to withdraw every $50 purchase

883
00:38:31,538 --> 00:38:35,058
because that's way too high of fees on-chain.

884
00:38:35,298 --> 00:38:37,258
But on Lightning, I might be paying

885
00:38:37,258 --> 00:38:39,678
a tiny micropayment for fees.

886
00:38:40,618 --> 00:38:42,018
But in that situation,

887
00:38:42,018 --> 00:38:43,498
I don't get natural balancing

888
00:38:43,498 --> 00:38:46,818
because the flow of funds only goes one way

889
00:38:46,818 --> 00:38:48,459
into my savings wallet,

890
00:38:48,738 --> 00:38:49,598
and then it just sits there.

891
00:38:50,038 --> 00:38:55,118
So that scenario is the worst case scenario for Lightning.

892
00:38:55,818 --> 00:38:56,778
And to be clear,

893
00:38:56,959 --> 00:38:58,218
and this is what Jesse was saying,

894
00:38:58,318 --> 00:39:00,118
Jesse's in our chat who runs Amboss,

895
00:39:00,598 --> 00:39:01,959
a lot of these operators,

896
00:39:02,158 --> 00:39:05,838
my guess is very few have balanced channels today.

897
00:39:06,078 --> 00:39:08,018
Maybe Block does and a few others, maybe.

898
00:39:08,578 --> 00:39:09,518
But in general,

899
00:39:09,518 --> 00:39:11,598
my sort of base assumption is that

900
00:39:11,598 --> 00:39:13,198
there's more direction one way or another.

901
00:39:13,298 --> 00:39:15,178
For example, if you're working with an exchange,

902
00:39:15,518 --> 00:39:17,538
my guess is way more people are withdrawing

903
00:39:17,538 --> 00:39:19,238
because they're buying to self-custody

904
00:39:19,238 --> 00:39:20,718
than they are actually spending today.

905
00:39:21,338 --> 00:39:22,318
And so in that world,

906
00:39:22,538 --> 00:39:24,278
the node operators do have to do

907
00:39:24,278 --> 00:39:25,818
quite a lot of on-chain batching.

908
00:39:26,138 --> 00:39:27,598
Like they're batching lots of smaller payments,

909
00:39:27,738 --> 00:39:29,318
but they do have to do a lot of on-chain activity

910
00:39:29,318 --> 00:39:29,858
to rebalance.

911
00:39:30,618 --> 00:39:33,498
We talked about this a little bit last May

912
00:39:33,498 --> 00:39:35,538
when Block reported,

913
00:39:36,439 --> 00:39:38,038
they framed it as yield,

914
00:39:38,038 --> 00:39:41,439
but like a very good financial return

915
00:39:41,439 --> 00:39:43,358
on the Lightning node that Block's running.

916
00:39:43,858 --> 00:39:46,098
I think it was like 10% was reported.

917
00:39:47,078 --> 00:39:48,658
And I think that stunned a lot of people,

918
00:39:48,778 --> 00:39:50,398
even in the Lightning Network community,

919
00:39:50,718 --> 00:39:52,038
who are running Lightning nodes

920
00:39:52,038 --> 00:39:54,758
because that's much higher than most people

921
00:39:54,758 --> 00:39:55,778
are making on their Lightning nodes.

922
00:39:55,939 --> 00:39:57,398
So was that fabricated?

923
00:39:57,598 --> 00:40:00,078
Or how is Cash App and Block doing that?

924
00:40:00,218 --> 00:40:01,098
It wasn't fabricated.

925
00:40:01,638 --> 00:40:04,858
It's because they're in a situation of flow of funds

926
00:40:04,858 --> 00:40:07,218
where a lot of people buy Bitcoin on Cash App

927
00:40:07,218 --> 00:40:11,218
and then they withdraw it through the Lightning Network node.

928
00:40:11,439 --> 00:40:14,998
And it creates the direction of the flow of funds,

929
00:40:15,358 --> 00:40:19,618
makes the block Lightning node in an advantageous position

930
00:40:19,618 --> 00:40:23,818
because it has a lot of liquidity that it can basically sell to others.

931
00:40:23,978 --> 00:40:26,098
So I think they use Lightning Labs Loop,

932
00:40:26,258 --> 00:40:28,098
or I don't know what all services they use,

933
00:40:28,138 --> 00:40:30,439
but they make extra money because of that.

934
00:40:30,778 --> 00:40:34,898
Whereas a lot of other wallets are not in that position.

935
00:40:35,478 --> 00:40:37,858
They're not sending out more than they're receiving.

936
00:40:38,398 --> 00:40:39,439
They're either balanced,

937
00:40:40,018 --> 00:40:41,758
which is a great situation to be in,

938
00:40:42,238 --> 00:40:45,538
or they take in more money than they spend out,

939
00:40:45,758 --> 00:40:47,838
like the savings wallet scenario I mentioned.

940
00:40:47,838 --> 00:40:50,738
By the way, one thing that maybe just isn't interesting

941
00:40:50,738 --> 00:40:52,538
to show you where we are in adoption,

942
00:40:53,378 --> 00:40:57,718
do you guys remember the old school site?

943
00:40:57,818 --> 00:41:00,778
Actually, a site I invested in way, way, way early in the days

944
00:41:00,778 --> 00:41:02,538
and haven't tracked very closely recently.

945
00:41:02,838 --> 00:41:05,419
But like Network Plus, did you guys ever use that?

946
00:41:06,598 --> 00:41:06,979
I don't remember.

947
00:41:06,979 --> 00:41:08,439
Plus, it's a way for people to read.

948
00:41:08,538 --> 00:41:09,678
So there are marketplaces.

949
00:41:09,858 --> 00:41:10,678
Amboss is a marketplace.

950
00:41:10,979 --> 00:41:13,318
Lighting Labs is sort of a marketplace with a loop.

951
00:41:14,138 --> 00:41:16,018
But if you go back to Lightning Network Plus,

952
00:41:16,098 --> 00:41:17,718
it's this kind of like jank website.

953
00:41:18,158 --> 00:41:20,439
Do you know if it's like a way for people to rebalance

954
00:41:20,439 --> 00:41:21,758
by like, hey, I'm going to connect to you

955
00:41:21,758 --> 00:41:22,498
and you connect to me.

956
00:41:22,558 --> 00:41:24,038
And it's like kind of in the old school days

957
00:41:24,038 --> 00:41:25,818
of just like triangles and pentagons

958
00:41:25,818 --> 00:41:27,338
and all these shapes, if you remember all that,

959
00:41:27,658 --> 00:41:28,218
to balance liquidity.

960
00:41:28,598 --> 00:41:30,018
I just checked them like, I don't know,

961
00:41:30,058 --> 00:41:31,218
a day or two ago because I was curious.

962
00:41:31,358 --> 00:41:33,078
Do you know how much Bitcoin volume they've done

963
00:41:33,078 --> 00:41:34,658
through that site rebalancing?

964
00:41:35,218 --> 00:41:36,158
Take a wild guess.

965
00:41:36,979 --> 00:41:38,498
Over what period of time?

966
00:41:38,878 --> 00:41:39,838
Since 21.

967
00:41:48,218 --> 00:41:50,919
If you get it wrong, you can always say you meant the other thing.

968
00:41:50,919 --> 00:41:52,998
Well, I just want to give a legitimate answer.

969
00:41:53,979 --> 00:41:55,258
Five billion Bitcoin.

970
00:41:57,479 --> 00:41:58,658
See what you did there, dude, yeah?

971
00:42:00,098 --> 00:42:00,498
Yeah.

972
00:42:01,858 --> 00:42:02,498
I don't know.

973
00:42:03,198 --> 00:42:04,419
Ten million?

974
00:42:04,898 --> 00:42:05,558
No, no.

975
00:42:05,558 --> 00:42:09,338
So 2,000, 2,000 full Bitcoin worth.

976
00:42:09,698 --> 00:42:10,878
But to give you a second, like old school.

977
00:42:10,878 --> 00:42:12,218
Well, I didn't mean 10 million Bitcoin.

978
00:42:12,698 --> 00:42:13,618
Oh, yeah.

979
00:42:14,118 --> 00:42:17,098
So 2,000 Bitcoin times whatever, $70,000.

980
00:42:18,158 --> 00:42:19,878
Now, they have not yet monetized that.

981
00:42:20,018 --> 00:42:22,419
But like, just to be clear, like, that is just like-

982
00:42:22,419 --> 00:42:24,498
Well, it used to be $10,000 in 2021 too.

983
00:42:24,518 --> 00:42:24,678
Yeah.

984
00:42:24,758 --> 00:42:24,979
All right.

985
00:42:25,038 --> 00:42:26,178
So 10 million is probably about right.

986
00:42:26,258 --> 00:42:26,798
So it's crazy.

987
00:42:26,898 --> 00:42:28,698
So they still have to figure out how to monetize all that.

988
00:42:28,778 --> 00:42:29,598
Maybe they will, maybe they won't.

989
00:42:29,638 --> 00:42:32,538
But like, it just shows me that so much of, you know,

990
00:42:32,538 --> 00:42:34,598
even though there are products like Ambosses

991
00:42:34,598 --> 00:42:35,598
that have some volume,

992
00:42:35,698 --> 00:42:36,778
Lightning Labs have some volume.

993
00:42:37,318 --> 00:42:39,498
I think the reason that old school sites

994
00:42:39,498 --> 00:42:40,439
still does so well

995
00:42:40,439 --> 00:42:42,998
is because it's no KYC.

996
00:42:43,778 --> 00:42:44,998
And so that just shows you

997
00:42:44,998 --> 00:42:48,479
the old school whales

998
00:42:48,479 --> 00:42:49,558
are still controlling Bitcoin.

999
00:42:49,939 --> 00:42:51,098
So it just gives you an idea

1000
00:42:51,098 --> 00:42:52,398
of where we are in terms of adoption.

1001
00:42:52,838 --> 00:42:53,658
That's going to change.

1002
00:42:53,738 --> 00:42:54,158
It's going to get there.

1003
00:42:54,479 --> 00:42:56,138
But anyways, it's interesting.

1004
00:42:57,258 --> 00:42:58,698
But back to the report,

1005
00:42:58,919 --> 00:42:59,518
I think you,

1006
00:42:59,698 --> 00:43:00,378
well, I don't know

1007
00:43:00,378 --> 00:43:01,158
what all you want to talk about.

1008
00:43:01,278 --> 00:43:02,018
I know you want to talk about

1009
00:43:02,018 --> 00:43:03,118
the lightning numbers.

1010
00:43:03,358 --> 00:43:03,939
Yeah, so let's talk about that.

1011
00:43:03,939 --> 00:43:05,538
So, Lightning Network numbers, right?

1012
00:43:05,618 --> 00:43:09,698
So, one of the challenges we've all been talking about for many years with Lightning Numbers

1013
00:43:09,698 --> 00:43:13,058
is because it's a private peer-to-peer, you know, un-run network.

1014
00:43:13,158 --> 00:43:14,558
It's effectively Tor, incentivized Tor.

1015
00:43:14,979 --> 00:43:18,378
What's crazy is you can never know how much is flowing to the network.

1016
00:43:18,498 --> 00:43:19,979
Like, by definition, you don't know.

1017
00:43:20,298 --> 00:43:24,738
And so, I remember in the early days when I, you know, used to be more involved in crypto

1018
00:43:24,738 --> 00:43:27,218
land investing, and I would be like, guys, like, Lightning Network's going to have volume.

1019
00:43:27,378 --> 00:43:28,858
They'd be like, yeah, but what's your total volume locked?

1020
00:43:28,919 --> 00:43:29,778
I'm like, I don't even know what that means.

1021
00:43:30,158 --> 00:43:33,598
Like, it's also irrelevant because this is a capital-efficient network where you're shooting,

1022
00:43:33,598 --> 00:43:35,278
Bitcoin back and forth at the speed of light.

1023
00:43:36,098 --> 00:43:37,638
But anyways, River put out the report

1024
00:43:37,638 --> 00:43:39,358
in 23, I think, where they showed it was, I think,

1025
00:43:39,419 --> 00:43:41,638
1,200% growth over a two-year period.

1026
00:43:41,838 --> 00:43:43,439
12-12? 18-month period.

1027
00:43:43,538 --> 00:43:45,738
18-month period. 1212%. And you've always

1028
00:43:45,738 --> 00:43:47,459
kind of intimated from what you've seen

1029
00:43:47,459 --> 00:43:49,419
and from what I've seen with my portfolio companies

1030
00:43:49,419 --> 00:43:51,518
that things have appeared to keep going up at

1031
00:43:51,518 --> 00:43:53,218
similar rates over that time. Well,

1032
00:43:53,558 --> 00:43:55,218
I don't know. In the background, I guess, while we're all

1033
00:43:55,218 --> 00:43:57,378
watching the price collapse and AI take off, no one's

1034
00:43:57,378 --> 00:43:59,338
really talking about lightning, then River drops

1035
00:43:59,338 --> 00:44:01,459
this stat last week or so

1036
00:44:01,459 --> 00:44:03,439
showing that it's

1037
00:44:03,439 --> 00:44:10,098
grown since last year to a billion dollars a month being settled in lightning volume that's

1038
00:44:10,098 --> 00:44:15,558
their best estimate with over 50 percent of like network liquidity reporting to that that's crazy

1039
00:44:15,558 --> 00:44:20,258
and i forgot what it was the year before like 200 million or something i mean it's is a substantial

1040
00:44:20,258 --> 00:44:27,498
increase in like a five like a five yeah it's five x for volume right and then well also

1041
00:44:27,498 --> 00:44:31,058
interestingly to note is the number of payments i think it was like five million and change

1042
00:44:31,058 --> 00:44:33,618
for the month of November.

1043
00:44:33,939 --> 00:44:34,158
Yeah.

1044
00:44:34,738 --> 00:44:35,858
Which was up...

1045
00:44:35,858 --> 00:44:38,459
5 million is the unit payment number?

1046
00:44:40,419 --> 00:44:41,758
It's the number of payments.

1047
00:44:42,078 --> 00:44:43,479
What do you mean by the unit payment?

1048
00:44:43,558 --> 00:44:45,258
I mean, like, it's a payment,

1049
00:44:45,498 --> 00:44:47,698
not a Bitcoin value or something.

1050
00:44:48,358 --> 00:44:48,518
Yeah.

1051
00:44:48,638 --> 00:44:50,979
There's, like, 5 million payments

1052
00:44:50,979 --> 00:44:54,878
and a billion dollars of volume

1053
00:44:54,878 --> 00:44:57,618
in last November.

1054
00:44:58,098 --> 00:44:59,758
And I think the number of payments

1055
00:44:59,758 --> 00:45:00,718
year over year.

1056
00:45:01,939 --> 00:45:04,598
I forget if it grew 5x or 3x.

1057
00:45:04,698 --> 00:45:05,518
I forget the factor.

1058
00:45:06,118 --> 00:45:08,518
What's notable, though, is that the number of payments

1059
00:45:08,518 --> 00:45:12,078
from the prior year was actually 6 million.

1060
00:45:12,898 --> 00:45:14,718
So there was a big spike a couple years ago.

1061
00:45:15,258 --> 00:45:16,959
So it's still even down from that.

1062
00:45:16,959 --> 00:45:21,439
And that was the surge of, like, zaps on Nostra.

1063
00:45:21,919 --> 00:45:22,578
Yeah, exactly.

1064
00:45:23,578 --> 00:45:26,078
And then that was kind of a...

1065
00:45:26,078 --> 00:45:27,658
I mean, it's still...

1066
00:45:27,658 --> 00:45:29,038
It's not gone to zero,

1067
00:45:29,038 --> 00:45:31,738
but it was like a big hit for a period of time.

1068
00:45:32,818 --> 00:45:37,098
But I think the most notable thing is if you look at the average amount per payment.

1069
00:45:37,558 --> 00:45:43,718
So if you take the $1 billion divided by 5 million payments,

1070
00:45:44,198 --> 00:45:47,538
it comes out to a little over $200 per payment.

1071
00:45:47,838 --> 00:45:48,818
That's a very high amount.

1072
00:45:49,538 --> 00:45:52,258
If you look at previous years, it was much smaller.

1073
00:45:53,878 --> 00:45:58,398
The two years prior, I think it was like $11.

1074
00:45:59,038 --> 00:46:02,218
So 11 to 220 or something like that.

1075
00:46:03,558 --> 00:46:04,578
What's up with that?

1076
00:46:04,898 --> 00:46:08,038
Well, number one, the Zapathons.

1077
00:46:08,419 --> 00:46:09,898
Number one is Zapathon, right?

1078
00:46:10,178 --> 00:46:14,618
So the more skewed towards Zaps, those are like tiny micropayments.

1079
00:46:15,218 --> 00:46:22,858
But I think the second trend here, and Jesse's commenting here, I'd love to hear his thoughts as well.

1080
00:46:22,998 --> 00:46:25,198
He has a really great vantage point on this.

1081
00:46:25,198 --> 00:46:43,398
But the other trend is Cash App has seen an increase in withdrawals going over Lightning versus the Bitcoin network to where it's like a very, very material amount of the percentage of withdrawals from Cash App.

1082
00:46:43,398 --> 00:46:55,538
But Coinbase as well, maybe like a year and a half ago, launched with LightSpark, powered by LDK, to enable Lightning.

1083
00:46:55,858 --> 00:47:01,138
And they've seen a steady increase in the percentage of their Bitcoin withdrawals on Lightning.

1084
00:47:01,378 --> 00:47:01,618
That's great.

1085
00:47:01,618 --> 00:47:10,419
And so for those, especially Coinbase, and several other exchanges support Lightning too, but for that use case, that's where you're going to see a higher amount, right?

1086
00:47:10,419 --> 00:47:16,098
I mean, I have like $1,000 of Bitcoin and Kraken or Coinbase

1087
00:47:16,098 --> 00:47:17,698
and I withdraw it to self-custody.

1088
00:47:17,798 --> 00:47:19,078
Well, that's $1,000.

1089
00:47:19,479 --> 00:47:22,298
So I think we've seen an increase in that.

1090
00:47:22,618 --> 00:47:28,078
And that's a big reason for the big billion dollar number.

1091
00:47:29,338 --> 00:47:42,757
Do you think it mostly individuals that are just withdrawing into self Or do you think it like I mean because I always wondered when are we going to start to see like high traders or like whatever come and want to move between different venues I not I always thought

1092
00:47:42,757 --> 00:47:44,497
that use case should emerge.

1093
00:47:44,637 --> 00:47:45,837
I'm not aware of any evidence

1094
00:47:45,837 --> 00:47:46,417
that's emerged.

1095
00:47:46,497 --> 00:47:47,177
So I think that's

1096
00:47:48,097 --> 00:47:49,377
nascent or non-existent.

1097
00:47:49,697 --> 00:47:50,837
Maybe Jesse would know.

1098
00:47:50,897 --> 00:47:52,297
Well, there is that voltage announcement

1099
00:47:52,297 --> 00:47:53,257
where they did the million-dollar

1100
00:47:53,257 --> 00:47:54,317
Lightning payment with Kraken.

1101
00:47:54,477 --> 00:47:55,357
Yeah, we talked about that though.

1102
00:47:55,617 --> 00:47:56,837
First of all, I was not amazed.

1103
00:47:57,117 --> 00:47:57,517
Or I mean, like,

1104
00:47:57,577 --> 00:47:59,037
of course Lightning can support that.

1105
00:47:59,917 --> 00:48:02,097
I mean, that's not hard to do.

1106
00:48:02,117 --> 00:48:05,397
But if that's true, then maybe there's more of that activity than we realize.

1107
00:48:05,597 --> 00:48:09,757
Like with people that are posting, I don't know, they're trading between, I don't know, different venues.

1108
00:48:10,317 --> 00:48:10,637
Yeah, maybe.

1109
00:48:10,737 --> 00:48:13,817
I'm not aware of the data, but as you said, I mean, I'm also not.

1110
00:48:14,177 --> 00:48:14,797
We don't know.

1111
00:48:14,797 --> 00:48:16,577
I'm not privy to all the data.

1112
00:48:18,197 --> 00:48:21,817
And yeah, anyway.

1113
00:48:22,157 --> 00:48:31,837
And I would say that the data sources I do know of, like some ground truth, makes me...

1114
00:48:32,117 --> 00:48:34,937
I'm not surprised by the

1115
00:48:34,937 --> 00:48:35,817
River Report.

1116
00:48:37,477 --> 00:48:38,157
And

1117
00:48:38,157 --> 00:48:40,437
yeah, because I've seen

1118
00:48:40,437 --> 00:48:41,917
continued steady growth.

1119
00:48:42,617 --> 00:48:45,117
And I think there's also a substantial

1120
00:48:45,117 --> 00:48:46,957
segment of payments that are

1121
00:48:46,957 --> 00:48:48,037
Visa-like

1122
00:48:48,037 --> 00:48:51,097
in that the amounts

1123
00:48:51,097 --> 00:48:51,877
are like $20, $30

1124
00:48:51,877 --> 00:48:55,097
median, which I

1125
00:48:55,097 --> 00:48:56,597
think is around where Visa's at,

1126
00:48:56,917 --> 00:48:59,077
which I think is also encouraging.

1127
00:48:59,557 --> 00:49:00,937
Totally. What all is Jesse

1128
00:49:00,937 --> 00:49:01,677
saying here?

1129
00:49:02,117 --> 00:49:04,237
we're seeing 28% growth month over month

1130
00:49:04,237 --> 00:49:06,017
in our magma liquidity marketplace.

1131
00:49:06,877 --> 00:49:09,077
So that's a very strong growth number.

1132
00:49:09,257 --> 00:49:11,597
So happy to hear that for you guys, Jesse.

1133
00:49:12,277 --> 00:49:14,757
That's, you know, the different data points I see,

1134
00:49:14,917 --> 00:49:16,737
that's higher, but like, you know,

1135
00:49:16,757 --> 00:49:19,697
I'm seeing like, you know, 10, 12, 15% per month.

1136
00:49:19,697 --> 00:49:22,137
I mean, any of these numbers are very good growth rates.

1137
00:49:22,557 --> 00:49:24,777
Especially, you know, when that river report came out

1138
00:49:24,777 --> 00:49:29,077
a year and a half ago, the 1,212% over 18 months,

1139
00:49:29,077 --> 00:49:31,917
I looked at the volume then

1140
00:49:31,917 --> 00:49:33,257
and compared it to Visa

1141
00:49:33,257 --> 00:49:36,097
and I forget what the number was

1142
00:49:36,097 --> 00:49:37,177
but you know it's obviously

1143
00:49:37,177 --> 00:49:38,857
it was minuscule compared to Visa

1144
00:49:38,857 --> 00:49:39,717
but then I'm like well okay

1145
00:49:39,717 --> 00:49:40,737
well you know we

1146
00:49:40,737 --> 00:49:42,437
everything starts at zero

1147
00:49:42,437 --> 00:49:43,257
and has to grow

1148
00:49:43,257 --> 00:49:46,437
so how many more 1212% do we need

1149
00:49:46,437 --> 00:49:48,177
until it matches Visa

1150
00:49:48,177 --> 00:49:49,037
or surpasses Visa

1151
00:49:49,037 --> 00:49:50,757
and I forget if it was two or three

1152
00:49:50,757 --> 00:49:51,777
but it was two or three

1153
00:49:51,777 --> 00:49:52,577
so it's like okay

1154
00:49:52,577 --> 00:49:54,217
that's a tall order

1155
00:49:54,217 --> 00:49:55,717
but like you know

1156
00:49:55,717 --> 00:49:57,197
once we get one more in

1157
00:49:57,197 --> 00:50:00,637
then it doesn't seem that out of the question.

1158
00:50:00,837 --> 00:50:04,197
So what we've seen since then is one more,

1159
00:50:04,477 --> 00:50:09,037
and it's now like 0.1% of Visa volume.

1160
00:50:09,457 --> 00:50:09,997
One in a thousand.

1161
00:50:10,077 --> 00:50:13,377
So if you want to be a skeptic or roll your eyes,

1162
00:50:13,477 --> 00:50:14,957
you can be like, that's negligible.

1163
00:50:15,617 --> 00:50:18,157
Except what happens if we see that growth rate again

1164
00:50:18,157 --> 00:50:19,097
over the next two years?

1165
00:50:20,157 --> 00:50:22,817
And then if we achieve that,

1166
00:50:22,897 --> 00:50:25,717
then other people will not be rolling their eyes.

1167
00:50:25,717 --> 00:50:27,457
and then we do it again,

1168
00:50:27,597 --> 00:50:29,857
then we catch and pass.

1169
00:50:30,057 --> 00:50:32,037
Well, let's do some back of the envelope math

1170
00:50:32,037 --> 00:50:33,377
because there's many things that could take that,

1171
00:50:33,497 --> 00:50:34,017
make it go off.

1172
00:50:34,077 --> 00:50:35,297
We've talked a lot about agentic payments.

1173
00:50:35,417 --> 00:50:36,797
That's like a really, really obvious,

1174
00:50:36,917 --> 00:50:39,157
like kind of like elephant in the room if it takes off.

1175
00:50:39,477 --> 00:50:40,477
But let's say, you know,

1176
00:50:40,497 --> 00:50:42,117
we're at $100 billion a month right now.

1177
00:50:42,117 --> 00:50:45,257
That was the number in the Ripper report per month.

1178
00:50:45,817 --> 00:50:46,557
One billion.

1179
00:50:46,837 --> 00:50:48,137
Sorry, yeah, one billion per month.

1180
00:50:48,217 --> 00:50:48,817
So let's call that.

1181
00:50:49,157 --> 00:50:51,297
Jesse's saying he estimates 15 billion last year.

1182
00:50:51,437 --> 00:50:53,757
Let's even be conservative and call it 10 billion.

1183
00:50:53,897 --> 00:50:54,757
Let's be conservative.

1184
00:50:54,757 --> 00:50:58,857
So if we 5x again next year and then 5x again, right?

1185
00:50:58,917 --> 00:51:00,057
So that would go 10 billion.

1186
00:51:00,197 --> 00:51:01,137
Next year would be 50 billion.

1187
00:51:01,237 --> 00:51:03,317
The year after that, again, would be 250 billion.

1188
00:51:03,737 --> 00:51:04,917
What is Visa doing in total?

1189
00:51:04,917 --> 00:51:05,737
Like a quadrillion.

1190
00:51:06,037 --> 00:51:06,437
A quadrillion.

1191
00:51:06,537 --> 00:51:06,637
Okay.

1192
00:51:06,757 --> 00:51:07,337
Give or take.

1193
00:51:07,477 --> 00:51:08,437
Yeah, we got a few more to go.

1194
00:51:08,517 --> 00:51:12,057
But still, I mean, if we're at the point where we're settling next year on the order of 50

1195
00:51:12,057 --> 00:51:16,397
to 100 billion dollars, like now this is a real serious piece of the economy.

1196
00:51:16,777 --> 00:51:16,897
Yeah.

1197
00:51:18,317 --> 00:51:21,757
So I find those very encouraging numbers.

1198
00:51:22,177 --> 00:51:22,437
Yeah, DK?

1199
00:51:22,437 --> 00:51:44,417
Okay. I was going to say, if you've got anything in your mind about how agents become users of this thing, then all of your models for 2026 are just broken. The last two months have just been so insane from software development and from agent development and stuff that it's very credible you could even blow out those previous growth numbers because agents are the ones doing the payments.

1200
00:51:44,677 --> 00:51:45,037
Easily.

1201
00:51:45,037 --> 00:51:49,777
Easy to beat, in a sense, in a payment in an agentic wallet world.

1202
00:51:49,777 --> 00:51:52,257
100% agree to that point.

1203
00:51:52,897 --> 00:51:58,037
We still have to make sure that Bitcoin is successful there.

1204
00:51:58,457 --> 00:51:59,897
But I agree with...

1205
00:51:59,897 --> 00:52:04,257
Can we talk a little bit about Matt's piece?

1206
00:52:04,777 --> 00:52:05,777
Because Matt Corallo just...

1207
00:52:06,617 --> 00:52:09,257
Yes, Matt Corallo on the Spiral team

1208
00:52:09,257 --> 00:52:13,117
just published a really good post

1209
00:52:13,117 --> 00:52:15,577
on the importance of,

1210
00:52:16,237 --> 00:52:18,577
for specifically open source agents,

1211
00:52:18,577 --> 00:52:20,817
but I think agentic commerce in general,

1212
00:52:21,117 --> 00:52:24,537
the importance of the permissionless, neutral, open network

1213
00:52:24,537 --> 00:52:26,497
that Bitcoin and Lightning represent.

1214
00:52:27,737 --> 00:52:31,737
And he really emphasizes specifically open source agents

1215
00:52:31,737 --> 00:52:36,357
because the concern that is,

1216
00:52:37,937 --> 00:52:40,217
he frames the concern in the piece

1217
00:52:40,217 --> 00:52:43,117
that if stable coins are adopted,

1218
00:52:44,037 --> 00:52:47,257
they're not as open and neutral and permissionless

1219
00:52:47,257 --> 00:52:48,737
as the Bitcoin network.

1220
00:52:49,537 --> 00:52:52,177
And if each major AI model,

1221
00:52:52,577 --> 00:52:53,657
which is closed sourced,

1222
00:52:54,217 --> 00:52:56,857
adopts one or more of these stable coins,

1223
00:52:57,717 --> 00:53:01,517
it can just sort of cut out open source agents

1224
00:53:01,517 --> 00:53:03,717
and they can't participate in that economy.

1225
00:53:03,917 --> 00:53:05,037
It's just sort of a recreation

1226
00:53:05,037 --> 00:53:07,037
of the existing financial network.

1227
00:53:07,737 --> 00:53:08,717
I'm not sure I fully,

1228
00:53:08,997 --> 00:53:11,517
do you feel like you have a clear picture of that?

1229
00:53:11,537 --> 00:53:12,357
Because in my mind,

1230
00:53:12,817 --> 00:53:16,097
it's like you've got major hyperscalers

1231
00:53:16,097 --> 00:53:17,077
and you've got major labs

1232
00:53:17,077 --> 00:53:18,797
like OpenAI and Anthropic,

1233
00:53:19,577 --> 00:53:22,997
is the proposal that they're somehow going to control

1234
00:53:22,997 --> 00:53:26,717
the underlying agents that are allowed to run?

1235
00:53:26,857 --> 00:53:30,197
Meaning if I use OpenClaw in a certain way

1236
00:53:30,197 --> 00:53:33,037
with Anthropic Claude key,

1237
00:53:33,557 --> 00:53:36,697
that that agent would be required to use a stablecoin,

1238
00:53:36,777 --> 00:53:38,337
would be defaulted to a stablecoin somehow?

1239
00:53:39,297 --> 00:53:44,437
I think it would be like each major AI company model

1240
00:53:44,437 --> 00:53:48,137
would introduce their own agentic model,

1241
00:53:48,357 --> 00:53:49,397
like their own open claw,

1242
00:53:49,617 --> 00:53:50,777
except it would be closed claw.

1243
00:53:51,557 --> 00:53:54,597
Like Gemini would have a closed provider,

1244
00:53:54,917 --> 00:53:57,897
but extremely powerful and amazing agent

1245
00:53:57,897 --> 00:53:58,657
that you could use.

1246
00:53:58,757 --> 00:54:00,897
And so will Anthropic and even OpenAI.

1247
00:54:01,077 --> 00:54:02,357
They bought OpenClaw or whatever

1248
00:54:02,357 --> 00:54:03,637
and promised to keep it open.

1249
00:54:04,177 --> 00:54:06,637
Okay, let's assume they keep doing that.

1250
00:54:06,697 --> 00:54:09,217
They might introduce their own closed source one as well.

1251
00:54:10,037 --> 00:54:13,297
And then just the consumer experience

1252
00:54:13,297 --> 00:54:15,197
presented to people is like, I use

1253
00:54:15,197 --> 00:54:17,077
Gemini or I use ChatGPT

1254
00:54:17,077 --> 00:54:19,437
and along with that is this

1255
00:54:19,437 --> 00:54:21,237
agent I'm using that's

1256
00:54:21,237 --> 00:54:23,317
closed sourced and then they

1257
00:54:23,317 --> 00:54:25,137
partner with Stripe

1258
00:54:25,137 --> 00:54:27,537
or they partner with Coinbase

1259
00:54:27,537 --> 00:54:29,357
or if it's Google,

1260
00:54:29,957 --> 00:54:31,237
they use their own internal

1261
00:54:31,237 --> 00:54:35,437
cloud user universal platform

1262
00:54:35,437 --> 00:54:36,457
or whatever it was called

1263
00:54:36,457 --> 00:54:39,597
to support

1264
00:54:39,597 --> 00:54:40,997
payments and they

1265
00:54:40,997 --> 00:54:43,097
create a really good UX around that.

1266
00:54:43,297 --> 00:54:44,597
that scales well,

1267
00:54:45,457 --> 00:54:46,797
great user experience for everything,

1268
00:54:46,897 --> 00:54:48,117
for bots, for consumers,

1269
00:54:48,377 --> 00:54:49,497
for developers, builders.

1270
00:54:50,997 --> 00:54:52,617
But at the end of the day,

1271
00:54:52,937 --> 00:54:54,197
it sucks you into that,

1272
00:54:55,417 --> 00:54:57,237
what will effectively become

1273
00:54:57,237 --> 00:54:58,757
a very centralized, controlled,

1274
00:54:59,057 --> 00:55:00,117
concentrated system.

1275
00:55:00,597 --> 00:55:00,717
Yeah.

1276
00:55:01,397 --> 00:55:03,357
This actually reminds me of,

1277
00:55:03,477 --> 00:55:05,117
I had a really interesting discussion

1278
00:55:05,117 --> 00:55:06,137
with someone this week

1279
00:55:06,137 --> 00:55:08,237
who I won't,

1280
00:55:08,577 --> 00:55:09,377
I don't know if they want their piece

1281
00:55:09,377 --> 00:55:10,477
shared probably or not,

1282
00:55:10,497 --> 00:55:12,357
but wrote about sort of using compute as money.

1283
00:55:12,357 --> 00:55:19,877
And this is part of a larger essay I'm hammering out, thinking about how to price, compute, and energy, which to me means in Bitcoin.

1284
00:55:20,517 --> 00:55:34,217
But one of the takeaways from the conversation I had with her was if one or two or whatever, some cabal of these agentic companies win or closed model companies win, I could see a world.

1285
00:55:34,217 --> 00:55:38,637
I actually don't see the world where Coinbase or any of these guys or their payment standards have

1286
00:55:38,637 --> 00:55:44,597
any power whatsoever. Where I do see a world where someone could become a central bank of

1287
00:55:44,597 --> 00:55:51,517
payments is if the valuable commodity in this century is intelligence, i.e. tokens. And if

1288
00:55:51,517 --> 00:55:55,017
you're the one that controls the tokens everyone wants, you should be able to create the bank.

1289
00:55:55,117 --> 00:55:58,037
What I mean by that is Google should be an incredible position where it's like,

1290
00:55:58,117 --> 00:56:03,157
I need Google tokens. I can only pay in whatever standard protocol Google launches.

1291
00:56:03,677 --> 00:56:05,337
Similarly, if I want Anthropic tokens,

1292
00:56:05,377 --> 00:56:06,457
I can only pay in whatever.

1293
00:56:06,897 --> 00:56:08,097
They can price.

1294
00:56:08,517 --> 00:56:09,777
They have the commodity people want,

1295
00:56:09,797 --> 00:56:11,037
so they should be able to create their own.

1296
00:56:11,257 --> 00:56:13,677
If anyone's in a position to create a new stable coin

1297
00:56:13,677 --> 00:56:14,877
or a new ledger,

1298
00:56:15,157 --> 00:56:17,697
it should be whoever controls the thing people want,

1299
00:56:17,757 --> 00:56:18,437
which is those tokens.

1300
00:56:18,877 --> 00:56:20,137
Now, that's scary for that world

1301
00:56:20,137 --> 00:56:21,217
because I could totally see a world

1302
00:56:21,217 --> 00:56:23,237
where Google and Anthropic are just basically like,

1303
00:56:23,297 --> 00:56:24,757
look, you have to have a Google token

1304
00:56:24,757 --> 00:56:26,297
or you have to have Anthropic token,

1305
00:56:26,377 --> 00:56:28,757
maybe Anthropic partners with Tempo and Stripe or whatever.

1306
00:56:28,757 --> 00:56:30,757
You have to use this token to access our...

1307
00:56:30,757 --> 00:56:35,197
are um you say token you're talking about a stable coin like sorry you have to use this stable coin

1308
00:56:35,197 --> 00:56:41,417
to access our intelligence tokens right and so in that world uh i think that's that's really really

1309
00:56:41,417 --> 00:56:44,897
bad for bitcoin you can still have people maybe building wrappers around it and kind of selling

1310
00:56:44,897 --> 00:56:50,137
it illegally um that could happen but i think to your point and to matt corralto's point in his

1311
00:56:50,137 --> 00:56:57,497
piece bitcoin does extremely well in a world where open source or let's say more freely available

1312
00:56:57,497 --> 00:57:00,137
intelligence tokens are just out there on a free market.

1313
00:57:00,577 --> 00:57:03,677
So I think for Bitcoin to do well in this world, we need things like

1314
00:57:03,677 --> 00:57:07,617
Maybellia, where we need open source models, frankly, to be

1315
00:57:07,617 --> 00:57:09,817
competitive enough that people want to use them.

1316
00:57:09,957 --> 00:57:13,417
Otherwise, I could easily see a world where, you know, one to five

1317
00:57:13,417 --> 00:57:16,317
central banks emerge, and that's the end of the story.

1318
00:57:17,137 --> 00:57:18,057
I agree with that concern.

1319
00:57:18,477 --> 00:57:19,737
And that's a big concern.

1320
00:57:20,117 --> 00:57:24,757
And I think that's kind of what Matt is getting at in his post.

1321
00:57:24,757 --> 00:57:24,997
Yeah.

1322
00:57:24,997 --> 00:57:29,797
So this is not an easy battle to win,

1323
00:57:29,877 --> 00:57:31,297
but it's a battle that needs to be won.

1324
00:57:31,897 --> 00:57:35,057
One message I'm trying to spread to folks in Bitcoin is,

1325
00:57:36,297 --> 00:57:41,457
we can understand why Bitcoin is superior money

1326
00:57:41,457 --> 00:57:45,037
in terms of its properties and long-term potential

1327
00:57:45,037 --> 00:57:48,357
and eventually will win no matter what happens in the world,

1328
00:57:48,357 --> 00:57:51,497
but that could take decades and decades and decades to play out.

1329
00:57:51,497 --> 00:57:55,317
and maybe that's the path it's destined on

1330
00:57:55,317 --> 00:57:56,617
but I think we are

1331
00:57:56,617 --> 00:57:59,237
we're in a position we can help

1332
00:57:59,237 --> 00:58:01,277
it win today because it

1333
00:58:01,277 --> 00:58:03,337
turns out it's properties

1334
00:58:03,337 --> 00:58:05,257
as daily currency and money

1335
00:58:05,257 --> 00:58:07,097
are a really good fit for

1336
00:58:07,097 --> 00:58:08,237
agentic payments

1337
00:58:08,237 --> 00:58:09,497
and so

1338
00:58:09,497 --> 00:58:12,997
I think we're starting to see how

1339
00:58:12,997 --> 00:58:15,197
this is a pitch that doesn't

1340
00:58:15,197 --> 00:58:17,177
just sell to existing

1341
00:58:17,177 --> 00:58:19,057
bitcoiners but it's a pitch that can also

1342
00:58:19,057 --> 00:58:21,177
sell to just people in tech

1343
00:58:21,177 --> 00:58:27,857
people in AI. And they'll start to realize, oh, we do need payments in AI. And oh, these properties

1344
00:58:27,857 --> 00:58:33,637
are needed. And oh, it turns out Bitcoin actually has the best properties. Yeah. I also think it was

1345
00:58:33,637 --> 00:58:37,777
very interesting. Last night at the meetup, there was a guy I'd never seen before, didn't strike me

1346
00:58:37,777 --> 00:58:43,197
as a Bitcoin or he seemed like an AI guy. And he was basically asking Jesse, he's like, Jesse,

1347
00:58:43,317 --> 00:58:47,597
will you make me feel better that I just basically bought an expensive Apple,

1348
00:58:47,597 --> 00:58:49,957
that basically that it was worth it.

1349
00:58:50,437 --> 00:58:51,877
And the thing that I think

1350
00:58:51,877 --> 00:58:54,197
he made himself feel better by saying was,

1351
00:58:54,237 --> 00:58:55,497
he's like, I started realizing

1352
00:58:55,497 --> 00:58:58,097
if I'm only using cloud services,

1353
00:58:58,297 --> 00:58:59,877
and this is the oldest trick,

1354
00:58:59,997 --> 00:59:00,597
or not even trick,

1355
00:59:00,657 --> 00:59:02,017
this is the oldest thing in the book, right?

1356
00:59:02,377 --> 00:59:02,977
You get them hooked.

1357
00:59:03,057 --> 00:59:03,957
First one's free, kid.

1358
00:59:04,437 --> 00:59:05,957
So Anthropic and OpenAI,

1359
00:59:06,157 --> 00:59:07,677
Google start pricing very cheaply.

1360
00:59:07,717 --> 00:59:08,257
And then all of a sudden,

1361
00:59:08,337 --> 00:59:11,117
they now have Monopoly, Duopoly, Triopoly,

1362
00:59:11,237 --> 00:59:12,557
if that's even a word, pricing power.

1363
00:59:13,037 --> 00:59:14,557
And all of a sudden, it's like,

1364
00:59:14,557 --> 00:59:16,357
okay, well, I'm paying $100 a month for Anthropic.

1365
00:59:17,597 --> 00:59:19,737
And now I need them.

1366
00:59:20,237 --> 00:59:21,537
And so now it's $1,000 a month.

1367
00:59:21,557 --> 00:59:22,697
And then it's $10,000 a month.

1368
00:59:22,737 --> 00:59:23,417
And then, oh shit,

1369
00:59:23,617 --> 00:59:25,037
like it's almost as expensive as a human.

1370
00:59:25,517 --> 00:59:28,817
And so I think that where he really clicked

1371
00:59:28,817 --> 00:59:30,037
and a lot of people clicked is like

1372
00:59:30,037 --> 00:59:32,257
the open and permissionless stack

1373
00:59:32,257 --> 00:59:34,337
is like the check to make sure

1374
00:59:34,337 --> 00:59:35,497
that like five companies

1375
00:59:35,497 --> 00:59:37,477
don't just absolutely dominate everything

1376
00:59:37,477 --> 00:59:38,257
for the next century.

1377
00:59:38,957 --> 00:59:41,937
But I think more than just having the stack exist,

1378
00:59:42,077 --> 00:59:44,397
like it has to be used in meaningful ways.

1379
00:59:44,877 --> 00:59:47,577
So part of what I kind of feel

1380
00:59:47,597 --> 00:59:49,237
feel like is unanswered

1381
00:59:49,237 --> 00:59:50,577
from Matt's piece is

1382
00:59:50,577 --> 00:59:53,137
what is the action?

1383
00:59:53,297 --> 00:59:54,397
Is it just a call to arms

1384
00:59:54,397 --> 00:59:56,077
to build more stuff with Bitcoin?

1385
00:59:56,277 --> 00:59:58,417
Or are there specific ideas

1386
00:59:58,417 --> 00:59:59,937
of how we move it forward

1387
00:59:59,937 --> 01:00:00,817
in a more open way?

1388
01:00:03,197 --> 01:00:04,877
I don't know.

1389
01:00:04,897 --> 01:00:06,077
I was reading Justin's comment.

1390
01:00:06,317 --> 01:00:06,397
Sorry.

1391
01:00:07,937 --> 01:00:08,997
Was it a good comment?

1392
01:00:09,117 --> 01:00:09,877
I can't read the comment.

1393
01:00:10,257 --> 01:00:11,837
One thing that occurred to me,

1394
01:00:11,997 --> 01:00:13,577
eCash for agentic payments

1395
01:00:13,577 --> 01:00:15,137
has an interesting feature.

1396
01:00:15,137 --> 01:00:17,117
The ability to rug the mint

1397
01:00:17,597 --> 01:00:19,517
Sorry, I got bumped up.

1398
01:00:19,697 --> 01:00:21,077
Rug the mint can be protection

1399
01:00:21,077 --> 01:00:22,777
against your agent messing up.

1400
01:00:23,137 --> 01:00:23,637
That's right.

1401
01:00:24,217 --> 01:00:24,937
And then he says,

1402
01:00:25,017 --> 01:00:25,737
run your own mint.

1403
01:00:25,817 --> 01:00:26,557
So it's self-custody.

1404
01:00:26,657 --> 01:00:27,857
Give your clinker an e-cash wallet

1405
01:00:27,857 --> 01:00:29,897
and if your open claw loses it

1406
01:00:29,897 --> 01:00:31,157
or causes an error,

1407
01:00:31,317 --> 01:00:32,277
you rug your own mint.

1408
01:00:32,517 --> 01:00:33,357
I'd think more about that.

1409
01:00:33,577 --> 01:00:34,537
But this does get to something

1410
01:00:34,537 --> 01:00:35,577
I've been talking to Dustin about

1411
01:00:35,577 --> 01:00:36,757
and the idea that like

1412
01:00:36,757 --> 01:00:38,537
we discussed many, many, many months ago

1413
01:00:38,537 --> 01:00:39,137
with Bob here,

1414
01:00:39,477 --> 01:00:40,277
which is like,

1415
01:00:40,857 --> 01:00:42,017
if you want to run an e-cash mint

1416
01:00:42,017 --> 01:00:42,877
backed by Bitcoin,

1417
01:00:43,497 --> 01:00:44,857
it seems like this is a good time

1418
01:00:44,857 --> 01:00:45,817
to have autonomous life.

1419
01:00:45,917 --> 01:00:46,497
I'm going to be coming back

1420
01:00:46,497 --> 01:00:47,617
in this Thomas Life thing soon.

1421
01:00:47,757 --> 01:00:48,497
Like, it's time.

1422
01:00:49,597 --> 01:00:52,217
But, I mean, your crazy ideas

1423
01:00:52,217 --> 01:00:52,837
that were on the show

1424
01:00:52,837 --> 01:00:54,157
with less than a year,

1425
01:00:54,457 --> 01:00:56,477
it's becoming very closer.

1426
01:00:56,737 --> 01:00:59,657
I mean, all of us have now,

1427
01:00:59,897 --> 01:01:02,637
like, asked our agent

1428
01:01:02,637 --> 01:01:03,897
to create his own wallet

1429
01:01:03,897 --> 01:01:05,317
and run its own wallet.

1430
01:01:05,697 --> 01:01:07,157
Can we also just take a moment

1431
01:01:07,157 --> 01:01:08,237
to just, like, comment

1432
01:01:08,237 --> 01:01:09,317
on the state of the world?

1433
01:01:09,517 --> 01:01:11,077
Like, things that used to be crazy.

1434
01:01:11,477 --> 01:01:12,057
Like, yeah.

1435
01:01:12,257 --> 01:01:13,417
When I was first saying that

1436
01:01:13,417 --> 01:01:14,097
nine months ago,

1437
01:01:14,177 --> 01:01:14,697
a lot of people thought

1438
01:01:14,697 --> 01:01:15,377
it was insane.

1439
01:01:15,377 --> 01:01:16,537
Now it's not that insane.

1440
01:01:16,917 --> 01:01:24,877
When we had the Type 1 summit and we had that panel on doing computing and Bitcoin mining in space and then inference in space, people laughed.

1441
01:01:25,177 --> 01:01:27,977
Literally people on that same stage, they laughed.

1442
01:01:28,097 --> 01:01:29,417
This will never happen.

1443
01:01:29,657 --> 01:01:32,297
Two days later, Elon, Google, everyone's like, oh, we're going to space.

1444
01:01:32,697 --> 01:01:34,697
The world is moving faster and faster.

1445
01:01:35,037 --> 01:01:39,017
And it's cool, it's exciting, it's exhilarating, but man, is it a weird time to be alive.

1446
01:01:39,497 --> 01:01:40,797
That is definitely true.

1447
01:01:42,157 --> 01:01:42,797
Let's see.

1448
01:01:42,797 --> 01:01:44,377
So where are we at?

1449
01:01:45,377 --> 01:01:46,797
We're on the lightning report.

1450
01:01:47,277 --> 01:01:48,957
And then we, yeah, and we,

1451
01:01:49,097 --> 01:01:51,217
then we started about agents and open agents.

1452
01:01:51,657 --> 01:01:56,077
Is there anything else from that post from Spiral and Matt

1453
01:01:56,077 --> 01:01:57,057
that you wanted to talk about?

1454
01:01:57,997 --> 01:02:00,617
Yeah, I mean, I think it dovetails into another topic

1455
01:02:00,617 --> 01:02:02,017
that we've been talking about a bunch

1456
01:02:02,017 --> 01:02:04,577
in our group chat this week,

1457
01:02:04,577 --> 01:02:07,237
which is, I think, you know,

1458
01:02:07,257 --> 01:02:10,777
I don't disagree with anything that I read in Matt's post,

1459
01:02:10,877 --> 01:02:14,137
but I also feel like I don't necessarily know

1460
01:02:14,137 --> 01:02:15,137
where it's meant to,

1461
01:02:15,357 --> 01:02:16,117
like, what are we supposed

1462
01:02:16,117 --> 01:02:16,877
to advocate for?

1463
01:02:16,997 --> 01:02:18,417
Where does it lead us?

1464
01:02:18,517 --> 01:02:19,197
How do we actually

1465
01:02:19,197 --> 01:02:20,677
make that future

1466
01:02:20,677 --> 01:02:21,857
that Matt is proposing

1467
01:02:21,857 --> 01:02:23,297
come true?

1468
01:02:23,377 --> 01:02:24,417
And I think it's,

1469
01:02:24,837 --> 01:02:25,797
I think the stuff

1470
01:02:25,797 --> 01:02:26,617
that we've been seeing,

1471
01:02:26,697 --> 01:02:27,417
I think we can talk about

1472
01:02:27,417 --> 01:02:28,097
Unhuman, right?

1473
01:02:28,437 --> 01:02:28,657
That stuff?

1474
01:02:28,877 --> 01:02:29,817
Yeah, it's live.

1475
01:02:29,817 --> 01:02:31,317
So Unhuman.

1476
01:02:31,497 --> 01:02:32,817
Well, there's numerous Unhumans.

1477
01:02:33,377 --> 01:02:34,537
Well, I didn't want to give away

1478
01:02:34,537 --> 01:02:35,217
the specific one.

1479
01:02:35,237 --> 01:02:35,977
Unhuman.what?

1480
01:02:35,977 --> 01:02:37,737
I think some of them,

1481
01:02:37,737 --> 01:02:39,737
I think, are not meant

1482
01:02:39,737 --> 01:02:40,457
to be shared yet.

1483
01:02:41,197 --> 01:02:42,897
Unhuman.dk, is that live yet?

1484
01:02:44,137 --> 01:02:50,117
I think, I don't know, that one's not live, but I think unhuman.domains is live, right?

1485
01:02:50,437 --> 01:02:50,677
Yeah.

1486
01:02:51,197 --> 01:02:52,657
And that one's allowed to be shared.

1487
01:02:52,797 --> 01:02:57,417
And there's, I think, a new launch coming up for the drinkable one on Monday, if I recall correctly.

1488
01:02:57,777 --> 01:02:58,817
There's a couple drinkable ones.

1489
01:02:59,957 --> 01:03:00,317
Oh, are there?

1490
01:03:00,417 --> 01:03:00,597
Okay.

1491
01:03:01,217 --> 01:03:02,837
Well, yeah, and the powder.

1492
01:03:03,957 --> 01:03:06,977
Okay, we're being very obtuse right now.

1493
01:03:06,977 --> 01:03:14,337
But the point being, like Unhuman Domains is a new website that Nick Slaney from MDK built.

1494
01:03:14,937 --> 01:03:21,117
And it kind of came out of our use of Ori together because we were using Ori, which is this bot that we can add to our group chat.

1495
01:03:21,197 --> 01:03:23,577
We're using Ori to add the bot to the group chat.

1496
01:03:24,017 --> 01:03:30,317
Then we decided to build things that were hosted, built by Ori, hosted on that OpenClaw instance.

1497
01:03:30,757 --> 01:03:32,677
And then we found we want a domain name for it.

1498
01:03:32,737 --> 01:03:35,117
And the bot cannot register its own domains.

1499
01:03:35,117 --> 01:03:36,537
then the bot is asking us,

1500
01:03:36,657 --> 01:03:38,497
can you go out and click around on this website

1501
01:03:38,497 --> 01:03:39,917
and put in your credit card and blah, blah, blah.

1502
01:03:40,517 --> 01:03:42,317
And so Nick and team realized...

1503
01:03:42,317 --> 01:03:43,857
What were some of the problems encountered?

1504
01:03:44,177 --> 01:03:45,837
Like CAPTCHAs and stuff like that.

1505
01:03:45,997 --> 01:03:48,577
And most didn't accept Bitcoin.

1506
01:03:48,857 --> 01:03:49,797
But namesheet does,

1507
01:03:49,877 --> 01:03:51,657
but then there are CAPTCHAs that it couldn't get around.

1508
01:03:51,877 --> 01:03:52,037
Totally.

1509
01:03:52,257 --> 01:03:52,937
There's CAPTCHAs.

1510
01:03:53,057 --> 01:03:54,117
I mean, I think most of them have...

1511
01:03:54,657 --> 01:03:56,077
You have to register for the thing.

1512
01:03:56,597 --> 01:03:58,357
And sure, you could get your bot an email,

1513
01:03:58,537 --> 01:03:59,417
but like those things,

1514
01:03:59,617 --> 01:04:01,317
it's not always quite as straightforward

1515
01:04:01,317 --> 01:04:02,617
if you don't have it set up already.

1516
01:04:02,617 --> 01:04:13,137
so i think the idea of unhuman.domains is a very simple way for you know the the product is built

1517
01:04:13,137 --> 01:04:17,737
bot first like you can switch the tab at the bottom to see it as a human but it's meant to

1518
01:04:17,737 --> 01:04:23,257
be seen as a bot and it's a website that explains to the bot how it can register a domain pay bitcoin

1519
01:04:23,257 --> 01:04:29,057
where to hold it how to get it and i think that is a great example of a thing that you can really

1520
01:04:29,057 --> 01:04:34,317
only do with a agentic wallet digital payment kind of tool it doesn't work with the old way

1521
01:04:34,317 --> 01:04:40,297
but i think it's in a sense the first thing i can think of that kind of is a you know if you say that

1522
01:04:40,297 --> 01:04:47,077
matt's post is a call to arms or a call to action i think the unhuman domains is a great example of

1523
01:04:47,077 --> 01:04:53,197
like a first example of a real digital native bitcoin product you know agent native uh bitcoin

1524
01:04:53,197 --> 01:04:55,297
product. I agree.

1525
01:04:55,577 --> 01:04:57,377
And another fun part of that

1526
01:04:57,377 --> 01:04:59,557
process in creating that, when we

1527
01:04:59,557 --> 01:05:01,397
discovered that trying to use

1528
01:05:01,397 --> 01:05:03,277
existing domain registrars ran into all these

1529
01:05:03,277 --> 01:05:05,017
problems where the bot couldn't do it,

1530
01:05:06,337 --> 01:05:06,997
I think, you know,

1531
01:05:07,217 --> 01:05:09,297
I sort of just went back to my old bag of

1532
01:05:09,297 --> 01:05:11,337
tricks and I'm like, oh, why don't you reach

1533
01:05:11,337 --> 01:05:13,337
out to the company and try to

1534
01:05:13,337 --> 01:05:15,197
get them to change and accept Bitcoin

1535
01:05:15,197 --> 01:05:17,357
payments? And I love Nick's response. He's just like,

1536
01:05:17,436 --> 01:05:18,997
now we're going to build it. We're going to build our own.

1537
01:05:19,477 --> 01:05:21,077
We're going to build our own and just like,

1538
01:05:21,297 --> 01:05:23,177
you know, and it's, and like

1539
01:05:23,177 --> 01:05:28,617
within hours they had their prototype working and then like five more within a day or two

1540
01:05:28,617 --> 01:05:32,936
i've never nick by the way like shout out to him and his team they move i've never seen a team

1541
01:05:32,936 --> 01:05:39,337
it's fast yeah so i wish every entrepreneur could study could just be like a fly on the wall in the

1542
01:05:39,337 --> 01:05:43,917
group chat and just see the way they move because i think it would it would up everybody's game to

1543
01:05:43,917 --> 01:05:49,357
see how how fast they move how sharp the ideas are how they go about the kind of brainstorm

1544
01:05:49,357 --> 01:05:56,277
ideation filtering prototype deployment process like everything happens within hours there's no

1545
01:05:56,277 --> 01:06:02,597
idea oh yeah and the whole thing is so fun it's hilarious i just i just dunking dunking as a

1546
01:06:02,597 --> 01:06:07,337
service in there like and i think if you don't get a chance to see what that kind of greatness

1547
01:06:07,337 --> 01:06:12,397
is like you actually can be held back thinking you're working hard you know locked in or whatever

1548
01:06:12,397 --> 01:06:17,237
you're doing good work but if you're not moving as fast as they're moving you're missing the

1549
01:06:17,237 --> 01:06:22,436
opportunity to do that yeah well one of the thing i want to throw out on on uh the nick thing i think

1550
01:06:22,436 --> 01:06:30,497
this is actually quite important is one other sort of at least kick for me was you know dk you and

1551
01:06:30,497 --> 01:06:35,317
matt got me on replet when was that it feels like that was like a year ago i think that was last

1552
01:06:35,317 --> 01:06:39,177
you just signed up a couple weeks ago yeah yeah i'm already ready to cancel that damn subscription

1553
01:06:39,177 --> 01:06:42,577
in fact i saw like charge in my credit card i'm like what the fuck is that oh yeah i forgot i

1554
01:06:42,577 --> 01:06:48,297
signed up by the way i hate sass i'm so happy to see sass like oh like a whole yeah because the

1555
01:06:48,297 --> 01:06:53,417
whole freaking i thought you said sats and that i was that warmed my heart i've been using bitcoin

1556
01:06:53,417 --> 01:06:59,917
more um but like the whole premise of sass is just like sign up once and like we hope you forget

1557
01:06:59,917 --> 01:07:04,617
your credit cards attached to us like it's so annoying anyways um it's not value for value right

1558
01:07:04,617 --> 01:07:11,157
but um you know within like days of using oribot and i'm sure i'll probably have this experience

1559
01:07:11,157 --> 01:07:12,456
once I really start playing with Cloud Code,

1560
01:07:12,537 --> 01:07:13,617
which is one of the points Jesse made,

1561
01:07:13,697 --> 01:07:15,217
which is like, even though OpenClaw is cool,

1562
01:07:15,377 --> 01:07:16,417
like, it's probably just because people

1563
01:07:16,417 --> 01:07:17,436
haven't used Cloud Code yet,

1564
01:07:17,517 --> 01:07:18,597
and like, yeah, there's some differences

1565
01:07:18,597 --> 01:07:20,057
because I can't, like, give it all my permissions,

1566
01:07:20,237 --> 01:07:20,436
blah, blah, blah.

1567
01:07:20,657 --> 01:07:21,997
But anyways, but the point is, like,

1568
01:07:22,357 --> 01:07:26,697
the only thing that kept me on Repl.it at all

1569
01:07:26,697 --> 01:07:29,257
was because Repl.it had this super sweet feature

1570
01:07:29,257 --> 01:07:31,097
where it was just, like, very easy to get

1571
01:07:31,097 --> 01:07:32,697
just with your credit card on file,

1572
01:07:32,956 --> 01:07:34,657
like, one-click domain hosting.

1573
01:07:34,817 --> 01:07:35,817
You don't have to mess with Vercel.

1574
01:07:36,057 --> 01:07:37,557
You don't have to do any DNS pointing.

1575
01:07:37,657 --> 01:07:38,737
It's just super easy.

1576
01:07:38,837 --> 01:07:39,857
Now you can do it from group chat.

1577
01:07:40,017 --> 01:07:40,936
Bro, and that's my point.

1578
01:07:40,936 --> 01:07:42,557
I literally, and I remember I even said that,

1579
01:07:42,637 --> 01:07:43,037
and I think I was like,

1580
01:07:43,097 --> 01:07:45,817
Nick, the only thing keeping me at all in Replit

1581
01:07:45,817 --> 01:07:47,337
and not doing this 100% is the domains.

1582
01:07:47,456 --> 01:07:48,037
Now that's solved.

1583
01:07:48,317 --> 01:07:49,456
So why would I ever go back to Replit?

1584
01:07:49,517 --> 01:07:50,617
And again, I come back to this

1585
01:07:50,617 --> 01:07:52,057
in the broader software story,

1586
01:07:52,097 --> 01:07:52,997
which I'm sure we'll talk about

1587
01:07:52,997 --> 01:07:54,317
where things are going in the world.

1588
01:07:54,697 --> 01:07:56,117
But even though I like Replit,

1589
01:07:56,197 --> 01:07:57,177
shout out to those guys, whatever.

1590
01:07:57,257 --> 01:08:01,037
But like, why would I ever go back to any rapper

1591
01:08:01,037 --> 01:08:02,177
on one of these models?

1592
01:08:02,597 --> 01:08:04,317
Unless it's in my chat and it's something unique

1593
01:08:04,317 --> 01:08:05,277
and it's like with my friends.

1594
01:08:05,477 --> 01:08:08,657
Like, I don't really see how any of these companies

1595
01:08:08,657 --> 01:08:11,897
that are wrappers around Claude, like, survive.

1596
01:08:12,417 --> 01:08:13,877
I mean, that's just...

1597
01:08:13,877 --> 01:08:15,277
I think there's definitely questions now

1598
01:08:15,277 --> 01:08:16,457
around Replit and Cursor,

1599
01:08:16,557 --> 01:08:18,457
which is amazing because just a few months ago,

1600
01:08:18,777 --> 01:08:20,356
I think we were pretty bullish

1601
01:08:20,356 --> 01:08:21,597
and excited about their future,

1602
01:08:21,737 --> 01:08:23,557
but you can see how fast things change.

1603
01:08:23,617 --> 01:08:25,517
And Matt has gone from a self-described

1604
01:08:25,517 --> 01:08:27,977
Replit maxi to like a shrug.

1605
01:08:28,097 --> 01:08:28,377
I don't know.

1606
01:08:28,517 --> 01:08:29,337
Claude code's really cool.

1607
01:08:31,137 --> 01:08:31,917
Oribot's really cool.

1608
01:08:32,017 --> 01:08:33,517
Group chat coding is really cool.

1609
01:08:36,277 --> 01:08:38,577
And I think there's more of these services too.

1610
01:08:38,657 --> 01:08:39,497
So I think, you know,

1611
01:08:40,197 --> 01:08:41,997
unhuman domains is a first example.

1612
01:08:42,377 --> 01:08:43,157
I've mentioned,

1613
01:08:43,356 --> 01:08:44,877
I remember mentioning it to Steve on a run.

1614
01:08:44,977 --> 01:08:46,057
I don't know if I mentioned it to you, Max,

1615
01:08:46,137 --> 01:08:48,436
but I wish that Vercel and Supabase

1616
01:08:48,436 --> 01:08:49,837
were also similarly wrapped

1617
01:08:49,837 --> 01:08:52,017
in a agent-centric way

1618
01:08:52,017 --> 01:08:53,157
so that, you know,

1619
01:08:53,177 --> 01:08:54,316
when I use Cloud Code,

1620
01:08:54,557 --> 01:08:56,297
I've just now started trying to deploy

1621
01:08:56,297 --> 01:08:57,856
to Vercel and Supabase

1622
01:08:57,856 --> 01:09:00,557
instead of like I was using DigitalOcean before.

1623
01:09:00,997 --> 01:09:02,457
And I want it to just be able

1624
01:09:02,457 --> 01:09:03,356
to do all the deployments.

1625
01:09:03,436 --> 01:09:04,517
If we need new SQL scripts,

1626
01:09:04,597 --> 01:09:05,237
it can write them.

1627
01:09:05,377 --> 01:09:07,417
Right now, my agent is asking me

1628
01:09:07,417 --> 01:09:10,297
to run SQL migrations in Supabase

1629
01:09:10,297 --> 01:09:11,997
because it doesn't have access to do that.

1630
01:09:12,077 --> 01:09:12,917
But that needs to get wrapped.

1631
01:09:13,097 --> 01:09:14,377
That needs to be something I don't worry about.

1632
01:09:15,197 --> 01:09:17,337
I mean, even companies like Vercel and Supabase,

1633
01:09:17,457 --> 01:09:19,396
like, what, do they stick around?

1634
01:09:20,856 --> 01:09:22,917
I mean, if they evolve, well, maybe, yeah.

1635
01:09:23,237 --> 01:09:24,377
They need to evolve, right?

1636
01:09:25,356 --> 01:09:27,657
Like, they need to be agent first.

1637
01:09:28,257 --> 01:09:28,957
I know what I was going to say.

1638
01:09:29,157 --> 01:09:33,396
Another thing that was in Jesse's presentation last night,

1639
01:09:33,396 --> 01:09:35,537
at the Builder meetup,

1640
01:09:35,957 --> 01:09:37,197
he had a slide saying that

1641
01:09:37,417 --> 01:09:39,977
chat is the last human interface.

1642
01:09:41,057 --> 01:09:45,316
And basically websites and apps are going to go away.

1643
01:09:46,396 --> 01:09:49,977
You're going to learn information,

1644
01:09:50,797 --> 01:09:53,856
interact with your data through chat.

1645
01:09:54,037 --> 01:09:55,436
And that can be voice, of course, too.

1646
01:09:55,877 --> 01:09:58,177
And then you still might want to see things,

1647
01:09:58,737 --> 01:10:02,557
but your AI agent will create the optimized visual

1648
01:10:02,557 --> 01:10:04,797
for you on the fly based on your request.

1649
01:10:04,797 --> 01:10:06,797
And I agree with that.

1650
01:10:07,417 --> 01:10:10,877
and we've been having a similar conversation

1651
01:10:10,877 --> 01:10:12,396
in other contexts as well,

1652
01:10:12,837 --> 01:10:15,436
where people are questioning

1653
01:10:15,436 --> 01:10:18,597
the importance of Bitcoin design

1654
01:10:18,597 --> 01:10:20,477
for your mobile wallet,

1655
01:10:20,896 --> 01:10:23,277
or a traditional app or website.

1656
01:10:24,856 --> 01:10:27,117
Historically, Bitcoin's been very hard to use.

1657
01:10:27,117 --> 01:10:31,177
It's improved dramatically the past seven, eight years.

1658
01:10:31,557 --> 01:10:33,577
Using Phoenix or Lexi,

1659
01:10:33,957 --> 01:10:35,097
those types of apps,

1660
01:10:35,197 --> 01:10:37,377
I find them to be a good experience.

1661
01:10:37,417 --> 01:10:45,517
but how much do those interfaces matter in the future right i'm probably going to interact with

1662
01:10:45,517 --> 01:10:52,617
my agent it's i'm gonna it's gonna have a spending wallet and i give it a budget something i'm

1663
01:10:52,617 --> 01:10:58,537
comfortable with and give it autonomy and power over that budget to spend and then it fulfills my

1664
01:10:58,537 --> 01:11:03,497
wishes and i have an interface with that agent like i don't see it any other way now like i feel

1665
01:11:03,497 --> 01:11:06,377
Now that we've seen that, and actually seen it,

1666
01:11:06,377 --> 01:11:08,597
but also we've been experiencing it, using it,

1667
01:11:08,597 --> 01:11:11,097
I don't see any other, so how much does,

1668
01:11:12,557 --> 01:11:15,757
so is that the last human interface?

1669
01:11:15,757 --> 01:11:18,637
And should we just kind of stop fretting

1670
01:11:18,637 --> 01:11:32,035
about website design app design app stores et cetera Apps are dead I also just want to make one more comment on this which I actually think Jesse close but it not the last human interface There is one more and I want to make a call to arms for

1671
01:11:32,335 --> 01:11:33,555
and we've said this on the show before,

1672
01:11:33,895 --> 01:11:35,015
I don't know if this is a company,

1673
01:11:35,335 --> 01:11:36,735
which I would love to help fund.

1674
01:11:37,335 --> 01:11:39,315
Maybe it needs to be a foundation,

1675
01:11:39,555 --> 01:11:40,575
which raises a bunch of money

1676
01:11:40,575 --> 01:11:42,335
and then becomes a company one day.

1677
01:11:43,835 --> 01:11:45,395
But what we really need,

1678
01:11:45,495 --> 01:11:46,315
I think the last,

1679
01:11:47,555 --> 01:11:48,916
increasingly I'm of the mind

1680
01:11:48,916 --> 01:11:50,095
that humans and AIs need

1681
01:11:50,095 --> 01:11:55,895
to merge. And Neuralink is like, obviously, that to me is the last interface, just like a chip in

1682
01:11:55,895 --> 01:12:00,916
your brain. And that's going to happen. And you're going to see Elon's going to do one,

1683
01:12:01,275 --> 01:12:04,175
all the other closed source companies are going to do one. That's terrifying to me.

1684
01:12:04,555 --> 01:12:12,655
I want to see desperately an open source or, as we said on the show before, auditable version of

1685
01:12:12,655 --> 01:12:17,035
Neuralink. And I don't know if there's a chance to do that as a company, if maybe some wealthy

1686
01:12:17,035 --> 01:12:18,255
Bitcoiners need to like,

1687
01:12:18,735 --> 01:12:22,315
for the good of saving the species

1688
01:12:22,315 --> 01:12:23,295
or whatever make this happen.

1689
01:12:23,695 --> 01:12:25,635
But somehow, I think that is where we're headed

1690
01:12:25,635 --> 01:12:26,955
and it's coming quicker than I thought.

1691
01:12:27,695 --> 01:12:29,455
And we need to make sure

1692
01:12:29,455 --> 01:12:31,235
if we're going to be putting chips in our brains,

1693
01:12:31,355 --> 01:12:32,435
there's a way to audit

1694
01:12:32,435 --> 01:12:35,075
what the hell signals are being sent in and out.

1695
01:12:35,195 --> 01:12:35,995
That's super important.

1696
01:12:36,555 --> 01:12:36,615
Yeah.

1697
01:12:37,755 --> 01:12:38,916
I'm just checking time

1698
01:12:38,916 --> 01:12:40,895
and I can't really run over today.

1699
01:12:41,075 --> 01:12:42,035
So we got a few,

1700
01:12:42,535 --> 01:12:44,395
let's talk a little bit about

1701
01:12:44,395 --> 01:12:48,355
I don't know if it was news or rumors

1702
01:12:48,355 --> 01:12:50,135
but like both Stripe

1703
01:12:50,135 --> 01:12:52,095
possibly acquiring

1704
01:12:52,095 --> 01:12:54,155
PayPal, Meta

1705
01:12:54,155 --> 01:12:54,916
I didn't hear that

1706
01:12:54,916 --> 01:12:57,975
before we jump in news

1707
01:12:57,975 --> 01:13:00,095
I want to give one more shout out while we're on the agent thing

1708
01:13:00,095 --> 01:13:01,835
because we gave a big shout out to MDK

1709
01:13:01,835 --> 01:13:03,975
but I also do want to give a shout out to Albi

1710
01:13:03,975 --> 01:13:06,395
Albi has also been moving extremely quickly

1711
01:13:06,395 --> 01:13:08,195
anyone that's following Roland

1712
01:13:08,195 --> 01:13:09,755
and what they're doing with their bots

1713
01:13:09,755 --> 01:13:12,555
they're giving lightning bullets to agents as well

1714
01:13:12,555 --> 01:13:13,735
they have now

1715
01:13:13,735 --> 01:13:18,255
they've launched a bunch of services. The services have gotten retweeted by Peter Diamandis' people.

1716
01:13:18,735 --> 01:13:23,475
I think Ben Horowitz mentioned it on the Peter Diamandis website. I think they maybe even said

1717
01:13:23,475 --> 01:13:28,895
Elon retweeted. I'm not sure on that. But that's definitely striking in the mainstream zeitgeist

1718
01:13:28,895 --> 01:13:35,115
is what Albie has built with their agents. MailMike.lol is one example where you can try

1719
01:13:35,115 --> 01:13:41,035
and sort of prompt and inject, i.e. phish an agent. We have not done it successfully. I asked

1720
01:13:41,035 --> 01:13:42,376
our good homie Satbot

1721
01:13:42,376 --> 01:13:44,735
who came up with a lot of creative ways.

1722
01:13:45,135 --> 01:13:46,695
And at first, I got to give Satbot some credit.

1723
01:13:46,835 --> 01:13:48,675
He didn't want to fish to make money,

1724
01:13:49,015 --> 01:13:50,835
but ultimately he did.

1725
01:13:51,395 --> 01:13:51,495
And

1726
01:13:51,495 --> 01:13:54,975
appears unsuccessful so far,

1727
01:13:55,075 --> 01:13:56,895
but that's the first example I know of

1728
01:13:56,895 --> 01:13:58,895
in the world of an agent trying to fish another agent

1729
01:13:58,895 --> 01:14:01,215
for Bitcoin and it could be interesting to see what happens.

1730
01:14:01,376 --> 01:14:02,795
So I just want to give a shout out to the Albi guys.

1731
01:14:02,795 --> 01:14:04,835
Good shout out. Yeah, that's great. That's fantastic.

1732
01:14:05,515 --> 01:14:06,955
But yeah, a few news pieces.

1733
01:14:07,855 --> 01:14:08,815
One is

1734
01:14:08,815 --> 01:14:10,275
a rumor

1735
01:14:10,275 --> 01:14:13,695
I would guess true that is being explored

1736
01:14:13,695 --> 01:14:17,655
that Stripe looking to acquire PayPal.

1737
01:14:19,015 --> 01:14:22,135
Two, Meta, and again, I forget if this is rumor

1738
01:14:22,135 --> 01:14:25,095
or it was announced, but Meta is looking to get

1739
01:14:25,095 --> 01:14:27,755
to come out with a stablecoin offering

1740
01:14:27,755 --> 01:14:29,615
in the second half of this year.

1741
01:14:31,215 --> 01:14:32,795
It's called Mibra, I think, is that right?

1742
01:14:33,615 --> 01:14:38,075
And then a third related thing

1743
01:14:38,075 --> 01:14:40,416
is David Marcus from LightSpark

1744
01:14:40,416 --> 01:14:44,035
posted on X in the past few days

1745
01:14:44,035 --> 01:14:47,595
saying that LightSpark,

1746
01:14:48,115 --> 01:14:50,035
maybe not known as a stablecoin company today,

1747
01:14:50,255 --> 01:14:51,515
but within 24 months

1748
01:14:51,515 --> 01:14:54,175
will be the leading stablecoin company in the world.

1749
01:14:54,376 --> 01:14:54,575
Yeah.

1750
01:14:54,775 --> 01:14:55,675
Which is a bold claim.

1751
01:14:56,395 --> 01:14:57,335
I mean, I think he's in a position,

1752
01:14:57,335 --> 01:14:58,595
he needs to make that claim

1753
01:14:58,595 --> 01:15:00,335
and he needs to make that happen.

1754
01:15:01,416 --> 01:15:04,175
So I think it's good that he made that claim,

1755
01:15:04,255 --> 01:15:04,675
but that's a bold claim.

1756
01:15:04,675 --> 01:15:06,955
But I'd say he isn't typically full of bluster.

1757
01:15:06,955 --> 01:15:08,715
He's like kind of a reasonable

1758
01:15:08,715 --> 01:15:09,335
straight shooter.

1759
01:15:09,955 --> 01:15:11,435
I mean, yeah, I think he

1760
01:15:11,435 --> 01:15:13,575
legitimately believes he's going to do that.

1761
01:15:13,735 --> 01:15:16,755
And I'm sure he has a strong plan

1762
01:15:16,755 --> 01:15:17,475
to deliver that.

1763
01:15:17,475 --> 01:15:19,635
My guess is if he's saying that,

1764
01:15:19,695 --> 01:15:21,595
it's probably more true than

1765
01:15:21,595 --> 01:15:24,395
if other kind of more wild characters

1766
01:15:24,395 --> 01:15:25,315
would say that.

1767
01:15:25,855 --> 01:15:26,876
So it makes me, I mean,

1768
01:15:26,935 --> 01:15:27,795
I would just speculate,

1769
01:15:27,935 --> 01:15:29,895
but like maybe he is part of

1770
01:15:29,895 --> 01:15:32,095
the Metastablecoin return.

1771
01:15:32,595 --> 01:15:34,595
Like if he's doing...

1772
01:15:34,595 --> 01:15:37,135
I recall my 2025 prediction

1773
01:15:37,135 --> 01:15:38,615
from a little over a year ago.

1774
01:15:38,635 --> 01:15:39,195
That was my favorite.

1775
01:15:39,435 --> 01:15:41,095
Which I struck out, I think,

1776
01:15:41,155 --> 01:15:42,655
on all but one of my predictions,

1777
01:15:42,876 --> 01:15:45,295
and I just redid them for this year.

1778
01:15:45,295 --> 01:15:48,715
So a 2026 prediction as well

1779
01:15:48,715 --> 01:15:51,995
is that Meta acquires LightSpark,

1780
01:15:52,135 --> 01:15:55,235
and that often starts with a partnership.

1781
01:15:55,515 --> 01:15:56,735
So we'll see where that goes.

1782
01:15:57,075 --> 01:15:58,955
But the rumor on Meta getting these difficult points,

1783
01:15:59,335 --> 01:16:00,575
I forget a part of that

1784
01:16:00,575 --> 01:16:04,195
hinted at them partnering with

1785
01:16:04,195 --> 01:16:06,855
Coinbase or Stripe,

1786
01:16:06,955 --> 01:16:09,035
but I kind of think it did.

1787
01:16:10,455 --> 01:16:12,615
So it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

1788
01:16:12,695 --> 01:16:13,895
I mean, there's no doubt in my mind,

1789
01:16:14,515 --> 01:16:16,355
David Marcus is in there battling

1790
01:16:16,355 --> 01:16:19,815
and selling Zuckerberg and Meta

1791
01:16:19,815 --> 01:16:23,355
to go with LightSpark instead of Stripe or Coinbase.

1792
01:16:23,635 --> 01:16:25,015
So without like kind of giving,

1793
01:16:25,175 --> 01:16:27,415
I don't think any of us have any insider info on this,

1794
01:16:27,415 --> 01:16:28,915
what would you guys speculate?

1795
01:16:29,115 --> 01:16:30,435
Let's say he's correct.

1796
01:16:31,095 --> 01:16:33,355
Today, LightSpark does basically nothing with stable coins.

1797
01:16:33,355 --> 01:16:35,475
in two years. They're the biggest stablecoin company in the world.

1798
01:16:35,675 --> 01:16:36,755
What does that mean to you guys?

1799
01:16:36,795 --> 01:16:38,255
He also, in a

1800
01:16:38,255 --> 01:16:41,255
reply in X, stated

1801
01:16:41,255 --> 01:16:43,376
that they won't become an issuer.

1802
01:16:43,876 --> 01:16:45,475
Or at least that's not part

1803
01:16:45,475 --> 01:16:47,475
of the plan. They're going to move stablecoins, but not

1804
01:16:47,475 --> 01:16:48,035
issue them, yeah.

1805
01:16:48,535 --> 01:16:50,735
That suggests that they would get

1806
01:16:50,735 --> 01:16:53,795
Tether, USDT, or USDC,

1807
01:16:54,595 --> 01:16:57,175
or maybe

1808
01:16:57,175 --> 01:16:58,975
an unannounced new one.

1809
01:16:59,595 --> 01:17:01,355
Maybe, this is all

1810
01:17:01,355 --> 01:17:03,315
speculation, right? Maybe Stripe

1811
01:17:03,315 --> 01:17:05,275
is coming out with their own issued stablecoin.

1812
01:17:06,215 --> 01:17:10,115
And maybe it's exclusive on Spark.

1813
01:17:10,355 --> 01:17:11,555
But that doesn't make any sense

1814
01:17:11,555 --> 01:17:13,515
because they're building Tempo, right?

1815
01:17:13,995 --> 01:17:16,275
So that probably is not true.

1816
01:17:16,455 --> 01:17:18,995
But pick another major company,

1817
01:17:19,115 --> 01:17:21,835
maybe a partnership with Google.

1818
01:17:22,195 --> 01:17:24,195
But then again, Google has their own

1819
01:17:24,195 --> 01:17:27,975
universal standard platform or whatever the name is.

1820
01:17:27,975 --> 01:17:28,935
They need a new name.

1821
01:17:28,995 --> 01:17:30,195
Because at least I always remember like

1822
01:17:30,195 --> 01:17:33,295
Spark, Tempo, Bass, those are good brands.

1823
01:17:33,315 --> 01:17:38,995
whatever google was not a good brand google chain yeah but but to me then that gets the question of

1824
01:17:38,995 --> 01:17:44,235
like are they gonna so that the thesis for light spark and i think our thesis for bitcoin and

1825
01:17:44,235 --> 01:17:49,215
lightning network in general has always been all these other you know tempos and google chain are

1826
01:17:49,215 --> 01:17:55,775
all intranets and by definition stripe chain is never going to speak with audi and chain directly

1827
01:17:55,775 --> 01:18:01,335
because they're both trying to like get those sweet sweet fees so my question is what is the

1828
01:18:01,335 --> 01:18:05,515
plan here it seems like david marcus sees an opportunity to market make between all of them

1829
01:18:05,515 --> 01:18:10,035
and bring all these like crap chains into bitcoin and somehow be the exchange between them i don't

1830
01:18:10,035 --> 01:18:13,855
know what that looks like but that to me is where i see that's where it smells like it's going

1831
01:18:13,855 --> 01:18:20,395
maybe it is something of an interop layer like like what bridge kind of is right bridge but open

1832
01:18:20,395 --> 01:18:27,015
bridge that speaks bitcoin yeah yeah that's interesting hopefully david's listening yeah

1833
01:18:27,015 --> 01:18:29,795
If you are, I don't have any insider inputs.

1834
01:18:30,055 --> 01:18:30,495
I'm just guessing.

1835
01:18:31,495 --> 01:18:33,876
So yeah, I think it'll be really interesting

1836
01:18:33,876 --> 01:18:35,735
to see how all that plays out.

1837
01:18:35,915 --> 01:18:38,835
Like what does Meta decide to do?

1838
01:18:38,975 --> 01:18:40,675
I think it'll be super interesting

1839
01:18:40,675 --> 01:18:43,695
given that they've already gained

1840
01:18:43,695 --> 01:18:45,876
all that experience from Libra.

1841
01:18:46,295 --> 01:18:49,515
They undoubtedly have Stripe, Coinbase,

1842
01:18:49,695 --> 01:18:51,355
and LightSpark selling them

1843
01:18:51,355 --> 01:18:53,376
and probably many others as well.

1844
01:18:54,455 --> 01:18:56,795
I don't know if Paolo and Tether are in there,

1845
01:18:56,795 --> 01:18:57,195
but you know

1846
01:18:57,195 --> 01:18:58,115
like

1847
01:18:58,115 --> 01:18:59,635
a few years ago

1848
01:18:59,635 --> 01:19:00,555
that would seem ridiculous

1849
01:19:00,555 --> 01:19:00,895
that

1850
01:19:00,895 --> 01:19:01,975
because Tether

1851
01:19:01,975 --> 01:19:03,095
was just seen

1852
01:19:03,095 --> 01:19:03,655
and positioned

1853
01:19:03,655 --> 01:19:04,295
as this thing

1854
01:19:04,295 --> 01:19:05,715
that an American company

1855
01:19:05,715 --> 01:19:06,435
wouldn't touch

1856
01:19:06,435 --> 01:19:07,615
but now there's like

1857
01:19:07,615 --> 01:19:08,575
Tether US

1858
01:19:08,575 --> 01:19:09,215
and like

1859
01:19:09,215 --> 01:19:10,535
Bohind runs it right

1860
01:19:10,535 --> 01:19:10,995
I mean like

1861
01:19:10,995 --> 01:19:11,975
it's you know

1862
01:19:11,975 --> 01:19:12,895
close to the administration

1863
01:19:12,895 --> 01:19:14,215
and so that

1864
01:19:14,215 --> 01:19:15,715
I'm sure they're in there

1865
01:19:15,715 --> 01:19:16,215
as well

1866
01:19:16,215 --> 01:19:16,675
right

1867
01:19:16,675 --> 01:19:17,955
so what does

1868
01:19:17,955 --> 01:19:19,955
and Zuckerberg

1869
01:19:19,955 --> 01:19:21,495
he's not going to want

1870
01:19:21,495 --> 01:19:22,115
to give away

1871
01:19:22,115 --> 01:19:23,155
the keys

1872
01:19:23,155 --> 01:19:23,995
to the kingdom

1873
01:19:23,995 --> 01:19:25,475
to some other company

1874
01:19:25,475 --> 01:19:26,655
and have them make

1875
01:19:26,655 --> 01:19:28,695
all the profits off the future

1876
01:19:28,695 --> 01:19:30,675
of all financial transactions

1877
01:19:30,675 --> 01:19:32,035
that are flowing through Meta.

1878
01:19:32,635 --> 01:19:35,295
So how does he structure a deal

1879
01:19:35,295 --> 01:19:36,995
where that does not occur?

1880
01:19:37,275 --> 01:19:38,615
It'll be really interesting to see

1881
01:19:38,615 --> 01:19:40,255
what happens with that.

1882
01:19:40,555 --> 01:19:42,275
Same with what Google decides,

1883
01:19:42,435 --> 01:19:43,615
what Amazon decides.

1884
01:19:44,135 --> 01:19:45,515
These very, very powerful companies

1885
01:19:45,515 --> 01:19:46,635
who can call the shots,

1886
01:19:47,135 --> 01:19:49,475
but they don't currently have solutions.

1887
01:19:49,975 --> 01:19:51,435
Yeah, it would also be very interesting to me

1888
01:19:51,435 --> 01:19:53,215
if Meta, it remains to be seen

1889
01:19:53,215 --> 01:19:54,735
how competitive their models,

1890
01:19:54,876 --> 01:19:56,015
their AI models are going to be.

1891
01:19:56,015 --> 01:19:58,495
And for a while, they were making the big bet on open source.

1892
01:19:58,635 --> 01:20:00,335
Lama 3 was kind of the big thing.

1893
01:20:00,715 --> 01:20:01,975
And then Meta just, I don't know what happened.

1894
01:20:02,055 --> 01:20:04,035
They spent all this money and haven't seen anything since.

1895
01:20:04,415 --> 01:20:06,355
Meanwhile, the Chinese models are driving open source.

1896
01:20:06,455 --> 01:20:09,376
But imagine if Zuck knows one thing, he knows how to monetize.

1897
01:20:09,535 --> 01:20:12,495
So whether he's using his AI or someone else's AI, it'll probably be his.

1898
01:20:12,555 --> 01:20:14,635
He's going to figure out how to monetize within his properties.

1899
01:20:14,835 --> 01:20:16,595
And maybe there's Bitcoin payments there.

1900
01:20:16,595 --> 01:20:21,475
And maybe, just maybe, if he becomes the unlikely savior for open source in the US,

1901
01:20:21,855 --> 01:20:25,895
maybe he pairs his open source models with Bitcoin payments in the wild too.

1902
01:20:26,015 --> 01:20:29,295
so maybe the last thing we can touch on

1903
01:20:29,295 --> 01:20:30,975
we can talk a little bit about Block

1904
01:20:30,975 --> 01:20:32,795
there's a lot of news

1905
01:20:32,795 --> 01:20:34,555
do you know anything about that company?

1906
01:20:34,555 --> 01:20:35,635
a lot of news yesterday

1907
01:20:35,635 --> 01:20:38,935
and certainly emotional for me

1908
01:20:38,935 --> 01:20:41,155
and like thousands of other employees

1909
01:20:41,155 --> 01:20:42,635
at Block

1910
01:20:42,635 --> 01:20:45,815
so I'm sure people have

1911
01:20:45,815 --> 01:20:48,395
heard that Block had a major

1912
01:20:48,395 --> 01:20:49,455
major layoff

1913
01:20:49,455 --> 01:20:51,955
like around 4,000 people

1914
01:20:51,955 --> 01:20:53,795
40% of the company

1915
01:20:53,795 --> 01:20:55,855
laid off in one event

1916
01:20:56,015 --> 01:21:02,215
I read somewhere it was the largest layoff by percentage of any S&P 500 company in history.

1917
01:21:02,755 --> 01:21:02,876
Wow.

1918
01:21:02,895 --> 01:21:05,675
So from a percentage basis, it's very substantial.

1919
01:21:05,675 --> 01:21:09,015
It was 2,000 people before and then a 40% reduction to 6,000?

1920
01:21:09,615 --> 01:21:09,855
Yeah.

1921
01:21:10,175 --> 01:21:14,295
And a few years ago, I think it was 12 plus thousand employees.

1922
01:21:14,595 --> 01:21:14,795
Yeah.

1923
01:21:15,155 --> 01:21:19,195
So from its peak a few years ago, the company will be about half.

1924
01:21:19,955 --> 01:21:22,595
So that's substantial news.

1925
01:21:22,595 --> 01:21:27,015
I mean, I work at Block, so I was not aware of this.

1926
01:21:27,155 --> 01:21:30,255
They did a very good job of keeping it tight-lipped.

1927
01:21:30,455 --> 01:21:36,715
I was unaware, so I learned at the same time as other employees yesterday.

1928
01:21:38,315 --> 01:21:44,595
And so I wasn't sure how my team would be impacted, like the Spiral team specifically.

1929
01:21:44,935 --> 01:21:49,715
I wasn't sure how other teams I work with, other Bitcoin teams at Block would be impacted.

1930
01:21:49,715 --> 01:21:52,876
I later learned that

1931
01:21:52,876 --> 01:21:54,975
fortunately Spiral was not impacted

1932
01:21:54,975 --> 01:21:57,095
so for those listening who

1933
01:21:57,095 --> 01:21:59,755
follow along with Spiral

1934
01:21:59,755 --> 01:22:01,495
what we do and the good things we do

1935
01:22:01,495 --> 01:22:03,675
for Bitcoin, we're very fortunate

1936
01:22:03,675 --> 01:22:05,755
I feel extremely fortunate that

1937
01:22:05,755 --> 01:22:07,555
we were not

1938
01:22:07,555 --> 01:22:08,435
impacted at all

1939
01:22:08,435 --> 01:22:11,815
so the way

1940
01:22:11,815 --> 01:22:13,035
I'm feeling about that is

1941
01:22:13,035 --> 01:22:14,675
I have great

1942
01:22:14,675 --> 01:22:17,535
a lot of emotions and great empathy

1943
01:22:17,535 --> 01:22:19,355
for the thousands of the block

1944
01:22:19,355 --> 01:22:21,215
employees that were just laid off.

1945
01:22:22,355 --> 01:22:23,535
And I just feel

1946
01:22:23,535 --> 01:22:25,376
an even

1947
01:22:25,376 --> 01:22:27,255
greater responsibility that

1948
01:22:27,255 --> 01:22:29,295
Spiral needs to deliver and have

1949
01:22:29,295 --> 01:22:31,255
great impact because we were fortunate to

1950
01:22:31,255 --> 01:22:33,275
not be impacted. I mean,

1951
01:22:33,295 --> 01:22:34,955
we're already working hard, but I just feel like

1952
01:22:34,955 --> 01:22:37,275
I feel three times the

1953
01:22:37,275 --> 01:22:39,495
energy to deliver and

1954
01:22:39,495 --> 01:22:41,475
make good on

1955
01:22:41,475 --> 01:22:43,595
the fact that the company continues

1956
01:22:43,595 --> 01:22:45,295
to believe in us, value us,

1957
01:22:45,376 --> 01:22:46,395
what we're doing for Bitcoin.

1958
01:22:47,515 --> 01:22:48,515
That's how I'm feeling.

1959
01:22:49,355 --> 01:23:03,235
And then, you know, for the people that were impacted, we talked a little bit yesterday, Max, about, you know, what are they going to do next?

1960
01:23:03,295 --> 01:23:11,155
Because one of the narratives, I mean, how Jack communicated was this was not due to financial distress.

1961
01:23:11,575 --> 01:23:14,376
In fact, it was the greatest financial quarter in company history.

1962
01:23:14,376 --> 01:23:16,615
so there's not a company

1963
01:23:16,615 --> 01:23:18,695
on its way to bankruptcy and financial

1964
01:23:18,695 --> 01:23:20,535
distress and had to reduce cut costs

1965
01:23:20,535 --> 01:23:21,855
it was the greatest

1966
01:23:21,855 --> 01:23:24,575
financial quarter in company history

1967
01:23:24,575 --> 01:23:26,515
Cash App gross profits

1968
01:23:26,515 --> 01:23:28,395
grew 33% year over year

1969
01:23:28,395 --> 01:23:29,755
and

1970
01:23:29,755 --> 01:23:32,595
I was looking

1971
01:23:32,595 --> 01:23:33,895
at the gross profit for the company

1972
01:23:33,895 --> 01:23:36,275
when I started the company in 2019

1973
01:23:36,275 --> 01:23:38,835
it was around a billion

1974
01:23:38,835 --> 01:23:40,555
dollars, little over a billion

1975
01:23:40,555 --> 01:23:42,235
dollars gross profit and now it's over

1976
01:23:42,235 --> 01:23:43,515
$12 billion gross profit.

1977
01:23:43,655 --> 01:23:43,876
Oh, wow.

1978
01:23:43,915 --> 01:23:45,035
So it's over a 10x growth

1979
01:23:45,035 --> 01:23:46,335
in like,

1980
01:23:46,575 --> 01:23:47,255
in seven,

1981
01:23:47,415 --> 01:23:48,135
seven, eight years.

1982
01:23:48,915 --> 01:23:49,795
And yet,

1983
01:23:49,915 --> 01:23:51,215
the stock price is flat.

1984
01:23:51,376 --> 01:23:53,015
It's kind of mind-boggling

1985
01:23:53,015 --> 01:23:54,915
how the investor sentiment

1986
01:23:54,915 --> 01:23:55,735
on the company

1987
01:23:55,735 --> 01:23:56,995
given the financial

1988
01:23:56,995 --> 01:23:58,735
performance.

1989
01:24:00,455 --> 01:24:01,635
Another metric

1990
01:24:01,635 --> 01:24:03,376
that I was,

1991
01:24:03,535 --> 01:24:03,835
you know,

1992
01:24:03,876 --> 01:24:04,575
looking at

1993
01:24:04,575 --> 01:24:06,435
was the efficiency

1994
01:24:06,435 --> 01:24:08,315
from a gross profit

1995
01:24:08,315 --> 01:24:09,735
to employee ratio.

1996
01:24:09,855 --> 01:24:10,555
Because another narrative

1997
01:24:10,555 --> 01:24:11,635
I saw on the internet was

1998
01:24:11,635 --> 01:24:14,735
the AI story

1999
01:24:14,735 --> 01:24:16,955
that Jack gave was just

2000
01:24:16,955 --> 01:24:18,415
a cover.

2001
01:24:18,955 --> 01:24:21,055
Or that it was really due to bloated

2002
01:24:21,055 --> 01:24:22,955
headcount and

2003
01:24:22,955 --> 01:24:24,815
mismanagement of the past five years

2004
01:24:24,815 --> 01:24:26,975
and just used AI

2005
01:24:26,975 --> 01:24:28,075
as a story to cover.

2006
01:24:28,835 --> 01:24:30,395
But that doesn't really line up

2007
01:24:30,395 --> 01:24:31,876
with the

2008
01:24:31,876 --> 01:24:34,695
metrics. If you look at

2009
01:24:34,695 --> 01:24:36,655
gross profit per headcount,

2010
01:24:36,655 --> 01:24:38,815
even prior to this layoff,

2011
01:24:40,315 --> 01:24:41,215
Block was

2012
01:24:41,215 --> 01:24:43,635
very competitive with all of its

2013
01:24:43,635 --> 01:24:45,255
peers in fintech

2014
01:24:45,255 --> 01:24:47,675
and in tech in general. And now

2015
01:24:47,675 --> 01:24:49,215
Block almost stands alone.

2016
01:24:50,035 --> 01:24:51,575
I mean, this assumes the

2017
01:24:51,575 --> 01:24:53,735
company is able to maintain and grow its gross profit.

2018
01:24:55,635 --> 01:24:55,876
Well, I mean,

2019
01:24:55,975 --> 01:24:57,615
we don't have the tether numbers, but for

2020
01:24:57,615 --> 01:24:58,475
public companies,

2021
01:24:59,455 --> 01:25:00,876
Block is now like $2 million

2022
01:25:00,876 --> 01:25:03,355
per gross profit per

2023
01:25:03,355 --> 01:25:04,775
employee. And the

2024
01:25:04,775 --> 01:25:07,635
only company I could find that was higher than that was NVIDIA.

2025
01:25:07,995 --> 01:25:09,415
Google? No. Really?

2026
01:25:09,675 --> 01:25:11,195
Block's higher than Google. Really?

2027
01:25:11,215 --> 01:25:11,555
Yeah.

2028
01:25:11,775 --> 01:25:12,055
Wow.

2029
01:25:12,455 --> 01:25:12,855
That's shocking.

2030
01:25:12,915 --> 01:25:13,955
Block is much higher.

2031
01:25:14,115 --> 01:25:17,455
Coinbase and PayPal and Shopify and Google and you name it.

2032
01:25:17,595 --> 01:25:22,135
The only, in fact, I asked a finding company and NVIDIA was the only one that was higher.

2033
01:25:22,415 --> 01:25:22,515
Yeah.

2034
01:25:22,855 --> 01:25:31,495
Now, you know, this assumes Block can continue to grow its business and customers and make customers happy and grow gross profits.

2035
01:25:31,495 --> 01:25:40,655
But I guess I don't believe the narrative, well, at least bloated relative to peers.

2036
01:25:41,255 --> 01:25:42,935
The data doesn't seem to support that.

2037
01:25:43,695 --> 01:25:50,415
It does seem like the rationale by Jack and the company was AI.

2038
01:25:50,715 --> 01:25:58,215
So getting back to the point we were discussing, first of all, we have to think about the human element here.

2039
01:25:58,215 --> 01:26:01,355
so I feel so bad for the thousands of people affected

2040
01:26:01,355 --> 01:26:03,695
and I didn't know most, but I definitely,

2041
01:26:04,055 --> 01:26:07,255
the people I did know that got let go,

2042
01:26:07,535 --> 01:26:10,175
there were some very high quality folks

2043
01:26:10,175 --> 01:26:13,876
and really good engineers.

2044
01:26:15,376 --> 01:26:17,295
And even the non-engineers,

2045
01:26:17,755 --> 01:26:19,495
one piece of advice we have is like,

2046
01:26:19,955 --> 01:26:21,135
now you have some time.

2047
01:26:21,235 --> 01:26:24,335
First of all, take a breath, gather yourself

2048
01:26:24,335 --> 01:26:27,275
and get into a good mental state

2049
01:26:27,275 --> 01:26:29,455
and deal with this sudden change to your life,

2050
01:26:29,575 --> 01:26:32,975
but then capitalize on what we talk about

2051
01:26:32,975 --> 01:26:33,695
on the show a lot,

2052
01:26:33,795 --> 01:26:35,055
which is like around building

2053
01:26:35,055 --> 01:26:36,275
and becoming an entrepreneur.

2054
01:26:36,876 --> 01:26:37,315
Being, you know,

2055
01:26:37,876 --> 01:26:41,376
you single-handedly can be a builder,

2056
01:26:41,635 --> 01:26:43,595
even if you're not an engineer

2057
01:26:43,595 --> 01:26:44,555
or a superstar engineer.

2058
01:26:45,715 --> 01:26:46,835
And take, you know,

2059
01:26:46,876 --> 01:26:48,695
utilize your agency to do that.

2060
01:26:49,175 --> 01:26:50,755
And I was so heartened by it

2061
01:26:50,755 --> 01:26:53,195
when I came into the office today for the show.

2062
01:26:54,535 --> 01:26:56,376
There's one guy, Jamie,

2063
01:26:56,376 --> 01:26:59,695
who worked at Block

2064
01:26:59,695 --> 01:27:02,735
and I know Jamie and I'm familiar with him

2065
01:27:02,735 --> 01:27:05,395
and then I saw him tweet and he tweeted a video

2066
01:27:05,395 --> 01:27:07,895
just sharing his emotions and how he's feeling today

2067
01:27:07,895 --> 01:27:10,315
one day after being let go

2068
01:27:10,315 --> 01:27:14,855
and it's a really positive attitude he had

2069
01:27:14,855 --> 01:27:17,675
and so

2070
01:27:17,675 --> 01:27:21,475
maybe you want to share what you're thinking

2071
01:27:21,475 --> 01:27:24,195
about could there be resources or events

2072
01:27:24,195 --> 01:27:27,595
or ways to encourage people

2073
01:27:27,595 --> 01:27:30,915
on taking the time they have now

2074
01:27:30,915 --> 01:27:31,915
to experiment with vibe coding.

2075
01:27:32,135 --> 01:27:33,595
Yeah, I mean, and I think one thing

2076
01:27:33,595 --> 01:27:36,035
as a context, I did read Jack's

2077
01:27:36,035 --> 01:27:37,115
like Twitter essay or whatever.

2078
01:27:37,275 --> 01:27:38,115
I thought it was really good.

2079
01:27:38,315 --> 01:27:40,835
Also, one thought, I mean, shout out to Jack.

2080
01:27:40,935 --> 01:27:43,655
Like, I think what he's doing is

2081
01:27:43,655 --> 01:27:46,275
he is the definition of an early mover, right?

2082
01:27:46,335 --> 01:27:47,435
Like what he's doing today,

2083
01:27:48,015 --> 01:27:48,995
probably realistically,

2084
01:27:48,995 --> 01:27:50,315
most companies are going to be doing

2085
01:27:50,315 --> 01:27:51,015
over the next year.

2086
01:27:51,235 --> 01:27:53,955
So it's not like Jack's like in a unique position.

2087
01:27:53,955 --> 01:27:54,815
And he saw it early.

2088
01:27:55,135 --> 01:27:57,395
And I think he, from everything we've seen from him,

2089
01:27:57,435 --> 01:27:58,515
like when he did the AMA here,

2090
01:27:58,755 --> 01:28:01,515
everything leads me to believe.

2091
01:28:01,755 --> 01:28:03,695
He really believes AI is incredible.

2092
01:28:04,135 --> 01:28:07,095
And he really believes you can build more with fewer people.

2093
01:28:07,295 --> 01:28:08,455
And he's really right.

2094
01:28:08,555 --> 01:28:09,675
Like things have changed a lot.

2095
01:28:09,755 --> 01:28:11,195
He said the essay since December.

2096
01:28:11,635 --> 01:28:12,715
But also a shout out to him.

2097
01:28:12,935 --> 01:28:14,055
Like it's just a good reminder.

2098
01:28:14,135 --> 01:28:15,155
I don't know if it's because he's a founder

2099
01:28:15,155 --> 01:28:16,775
or just like, I don't know,

2100
01:28:16,775 --> 01:28:19,376
like has some like innate compassion or whatever.

2101
01:28:19,815 --> 01:28:21,735
But it feels like most corporate CEOs

2102
01:28:21,735 --> 01:28:23,615
are just kind of like dicks when they do this kind of thing.

2103
01:28:23,955 --> 01:28:26,535
Um, and Jack, to his credit went above and beyond.

2104
01:28:26,615 --> 01:28:31,415
I mean, giving everyone, you know, six months pay six months or whatever it was, uh, healthcare,

2105
01:28:31,815 --> 01:28:33,055
or I forget the exact numbers.

2106
01:28:33,055 --> 01:28:36,615
And then an additional $5,000 stipend to put towards what comes next.

2107
01:28:36,735 --> 01:28:40,375
So all of those things, just a good reminder of like, he's going to save a lot of money.

2108
01:28:40,695 --> 01:28:43,695
Um, and, uh, probably the company's gonna be a lot more lean.

2109
01:28:44,055 --> 01:28:48,595
Um, but also on the way out, you know, you don't, I mean, you can do the right thing.

2110
01:28:48,595 --> 01:28:50,055
And I think it seemed like he did that.

2111
01:28:50,075 --> 01:28:50,935
So that was very cool.

2112
01:28:50,935 --> 01:29:01,635
But I think the next thing that would be even one step further for Jack and for Block, but also for us, and I suggest this with MDK, is, again, this is not like some one company event.

2113
01:29:01,715 --> 01:29:03,595
We're about to see this happen throughout the entire economy.

2114
01:29:04,015 --> 01:29:08,476
On the one hand, that's really scary because if you have a mortgage and a family, I totally get it.

2115
01:29:08,476 --> 01:29:09,075
You're freaking out.

2116
01:29:09,695 --> 01:29:10,935
Where's the money going to come from?

2117
01:29:10,935 --> 01:29:29,295
On the other hand, if you have enough of a runway to survive this transition period, then to me, this is also extremely exciting because it's like the old world where your value came from doing something that someone else told you to do, that world is ending.

2118
01:29:29,855 --> 01:29:34,855
And you can be upset about it, but trying to fight and go back to that old world, it's not going to happen.

2119
01:29:35,235 --> 01:29:39,735
But the new world that's coming is a world where everyone can be an entrepreneur.

2120
01:29:39,735 --> 01:29:52,335
And I know that sounds like crazy and like it's going to be, and I'm not saying it's going to be easy to get there, but I think something that we're maybe uniquely positioned to do, at least for people that are interested in exploring Bitcoin is, you know, can we have, and maybe Blockett's involved in sponsoring this or whatever.

2121
01:29:52,755 --> 01:29:59,455
For people that are looking at what's next, you know, workshops, like a week-long workshop is what I was thinking here at Presidio Bitcoin or online.

2122
01:29:59,595 --> 01:30:01,595
I suggested this to Nick with MDK as well.

2123
01:30:02,555 --> 01:30:07,815
Basically, courses where the whole deal is we're not just going to get you vibe coding, but particularly with stuff like MDK.

2124
01:30:08,175 --> 01:30:09,955
The goal is, by the end of this week,

2125
01:30:10,015 --> 01:30:11,395
you make your first $100 online

2126
01:30:11,395 --> 01:30:13,175
and see where that goes.

2127
01:30:13,435 --> 01:30:15,115
Because I think people are going to be shocked,

2128
01:30:15,495 --> 01:30:17,415
you know, once they get over the shock of like,

2129
01:30:17,455 --> 01:30:19,155
oh my God, my old world is dying.

2130
01:30:19,695 --> 01:30:21,435
Then I think there's the next shock of,

2131
01:30:21,655 --> 01:30:22,655
oh wait, but in this new world,

2132
01:30:23,195 --> 01:30:24,815
is it possible I could do even better?

2133
01:30:24,875 --> 01:30:26,015
And I think the answer is yes.

2134
01:30:26,435 --> 01:30:29,655
If, you know, if you get exposed to how that could happen.

2135
01:30:30,255 --> 01:30:32,635
And early movers have an advantage, right?

2136
01:30:32,635 --> 01:30:34,315
And it's super early right now.

2137
01:30:34,315 --> 01:30:55,555
So I do think some of the folks affected, obviously there's a range of emotions right now, but once you get past the suddenness of it and those who capitalize on this, I think they'll look back and be like, I'm actually glad that happened at that time.

2138
01:30:55,555 --> 01:31:04,215
Because it gave me the time and space and room to see this new world, act upon it, and get a leg up.

2139
01:31:04,315 --> 01:31:20,515
Yeah. And so I just in terms of what we can do, though, I mean, I think companies like Nick should be doing this, too, because there's the Bitcoin angle. But I think it'd be really cool if we found a way to actually like invite some of those superstar engineers in and be like, cool, just come hack with us for a month or whatever for free and see what comes out of it.

2140
01:31:20,515 --> 01:31:34,875
I mean, we've all been, I'm not opposed to the education idea, week-long education idea, but we've also found that through using things like Ori in our group chat, we can very easily build things.

2141
01:31:34,955 --> 01:31:38,055
We get our first taste of building without almost even thinking about what we're building.

2142
01:31:38,055 --> 01:31:47,275
And I wonder if maybe Nick or somebody else could host a little bit of an online forum where he just shows people how easy it is to build.

2143
01:31:47,275 --> 01:31:49,095
and you could use an Ori-like thing,

2144
01:31:49,235 --> 01:31:51,275
but it doesn't necessarily need to be about Ori.

2145
01:31:51,375 --> 01:31:53,935
It can just show how easy it is to build.

2146
01:31:54,055 --> 01:31:55,495
And then I think if you start with Ori,

2147
01:31:55,635 --> 01:31:57,635
you may say, oh, I need more control

2148
01:31:57,635 --> 01:32:00,035
and upgrade to Replit or CloudCode

2149
01:32:00,035 --> 01:32:01,575
or some other more sophisticated tool

2150
01:32:01,575 --> 01:32:02,695
if you really get into it.

2151
01:32:02,955 --> 01:32:05,115
But I feel like helping almost create

2152
01:32:05,115 --> 01:32:07,795
lightweight online forums

2153
01:32:07,795 --> 01:32:10,715
where people can gather and try out these tools

2154
01:32:10,715 --> 01:32:12,055
without necessarily,

2155
01:32:12,195 --> 01:32:13,455
you don't even have to swipe your credit card

2156
01:32:13,455 --> 01:32:15,215
or anything, just show up and start doing stuff.

2157
01:32:15,215 --> 01:32:19,955
you know, like a, like an online forum to, to play and you see stuff get made and you're like, wow,

2158
01:32:20,455 --> 01:32:24,455
I can participate in a group chat. I can build stuff. And then sort of graduate up from there.

2159
01:32:24,775 --> 01:32:28,595
I think it's also just worth noting kind of the reality of the world though. Like there's going

2160
01:32:28,595 --> 01:32:32,095
to be obviously frustration. I think the block is the first mover, but the reality is I think

2161
01:32:32,095 --> 01:32:37,015
block stock went up 25% yesterday. Something crazy. Like what the market is saying is that,

2162
01:32:37,015 --> 01:32:41,895
okay, the old world, the old way of building where humans are told what to do, that world

2163
01:32:41,895 --> 01:32:42,815
is now a liability.

2164
01:32:43,435 --> 01:32:44,395
And so I think it was also,

2165
01:32:44,495 --> 01:32:45,415
was it this week, last week,

2166
01:32:45,476 --> 01:32:46,915
that Cetrini Research Report came out

2167
01:32:46,915 --> 01:32:47,675
where basically they're saying

2168
01:32:47,675 --> 01:32:49,915
this is going to happen everywhere, right?

2169
01:32:50,255 --> 01:32:51,955
And so on the one hand,

2170
01:32:52,035 --> 01:32:53,015
that's like, you know,

2171
01:32:53,155 --> 01:32:56,015
it's scary because that's a big shock to the society.

2172
01:32:56,135 --> 01:32:57,275
I don't think that's necessarily going to happen

2173
01:32:57,275 --> 01:32:58,175
all like smooth.

2174
01:32:58,655 --> 01:32:59,435
On the other hand,

2175
01:32:59,515 --> 01:33:01,175
I really think for entrepreneurs,

2176
01:33:01,415 --> 01:33:02,755
frankly, it would be cool if the government,

2177
01:33:03,135 --> 01:33:05,095
you know, were like able to help.

2178
01:33:05,215 --> 01:33:07,055
I mean, I'm not holding my breath, but what?

2179
01:33:07,515 --> 01:33:08,195
Yeah, I don't.

2180
01:33:08,855 --> 01:33:10,155
What do you think they're going to do?

2181
01:33:10,155 --> 01:33:40,135
Well, no, I'm just saying like, if you're about to see a lot of unemployment, you know, I feel like there need to your point, there's like online forums, but I feel like, and again, the payments piece of this is super important as well. Like there need to be pathways for people to get paid and just see that it's real quickly. Like you need to be able to go from like in one day, make, if you could go in your first day for like, most people could get some idea out that gets them to $100. I think that would change everything.

2182
01:33:40,155 --> 01:33:42,275
and make, frankly, this transition

2183
01:33:42,275 --> 01:33:45,175
a lot more palatable for everyone.

2184
01:33:45,375 --> 01:33:47,195
And I think people who don't see themselves,

2185
01:33:47,315 --> 01:33:48,735
they don't self-identify as entrepreneurs.

2186
01:33:48,915 --> 01:33:50,095
They think it sounds scary.

2187
01:33:50,215 --> 01:33:51,155
It sounds like a lot of risk.

2188
01:33:51,255 --> 01:33:53,575
There's all kinds of, I think, baggage associated with that.

2189
01:33:53,775 --> 01:33:55,815
But if you just show up and play and make something

2190
01:33:55,815 --> 01:33:57,915
and see how easy it is to make $100 online,

2191
01:33:58,275 --> 01:33:59,915
I think people will be like, I could do more of that.

2192
01:33:59,976 --> 01:34:01,435
I don't want to raise venture capital,

2193
01:34:01,555 --> 01:34:03,976
hire a big team, run a company and hit board meetings.

2194
01:34:04,095 --> 01:34:06,435
But I do want to hang out in a group chat and make things.

2195
01:34:07,015 --> 01:34:07,335
But yeah.

2196
01:34:07,335 --> 01:34:27,335
And also, while everyone who tries this isn't going to become the next billion-dollar entrepreneur, if you go through that experience, you gain those skills, you start to see this, you're going to be way more hireable by others doing this who are looking to have a very lean organization building.

2197
01:34:27,915 --> 01:34:32,115
You're going to stand out to them as someone who was able to make $100 in a day.

2198
01:34:32,115 --> 01:35:02,095
Yeah. And I think, you know, I almost wonder, it'd be cool to put together like, um, like a little curriculum. And by the way, what you guys are all working on, and I see Matt in the chat with, uh, um, the, I forgot what you're calling it, but the builder thing. Yeah, Flint. Like more, more examples, not just have cool apps, but it would also be cool, like cool apps. And like, here's a story of like someone that got to a thousand dollars MRR or something like that. Um, but I could almost take a little curriculum and maybe it's something that I, maybe a lot to my vibe getting less, but, um, you know, something with like some of the, the Kevin Kelly essays around.

2199
01:35:02,095 --> 01:35:08,035
1000 true fans and trying to figure out his whole thing around uniqueness of like, listen,

2200
01:35:08,035 --> 01:35:14,195
there is, if AI goes well, and this is something else I think Jesse really hit on yesterday,

2201
01:35:14,233 --> 01:35:17,753
is like in the past, all permission and data flowed through these like centralized brokers

2202
01:35:17,753 --> 01:35:21,873
like Google and Facebook and TikTok and blah, blah, blah. But like, if you can really move

2203
01:35:21,873 --> 01:35:26,333
things back to the edges with people's personal AI as their own agents, I could also really easily

2204
01:35:26,333 --> 01:35:29,893
see a world where it becomes like the early days of the internet again, like a bunch of like,

2205
01:35:29,933 --> 01:35:34,873
basically like weirdos and like bizarre niches and like, yeah, maybe you're not like the next,

2206
01:35:34,873 --> 01:35:39,413
whatever biggest app builder of all time, but there's like 100 or 1000 people that really love

2207
01:35:39,413 --> 01:35:44,073
whatever bizarre idea you have. And that's enough to like live a good life. And I think, by the way,

2208
01:35:44,073 --> 01:35:49,353
one other hopeful message I think people are not focused on enough is yes, there's this like the

2209
01:35:49,353 --> 01:35:53,353
layoff piece, but there's also what we talked about, which is coming next, which is, um,

2210
01:35:53,713 --> 01:35:57,013
deflation in terms of goods and services. And we talked about that a lot on last week's show,

2211
01:35:57,053 --> 01:36:01,453
but as energy gets cheaper, like in theory, the only things that are still going to be expensive,

2212
01:36:01,453 --> 01:36:05,993
frankly, are where we've put like regulatory, like for like housing. Like if there were, if,

2213
01:36:06,053 --> 01:36:09,173
if everyone was just like allowed to like build up housing, like the cost would come down and

2214
01:36:09,173 --> 01:36:12,933
same with, you know, that's what's going to happen with food and that they're in necessity. So I think

2215
01:36:12,933 --> 01:36:16,913
in this new world, maybe you don't even need to make as much money. Maybe in the old world,

2216
01:36:16,953 --> 01:36:19,873
you need to make a hundred thousand dollars, but in a world where things get much cheaper,

2217
01:36:19,873 --> 01:36:24,693
maybe half of that is like more than enough for a high quality of life. So I don't know.

2218
01:36:26,233 --> 01:36:32,373
All righty. On that optimistic note. Yeah. Shall we wrap? Until next time. All right. Thanks,

2219
01:36:32,473 --> 01:36:33,293
guys. Bye.