1
00:00:00,900 --> 00:00:04,760
Right, let her rip. Welcome to the Presidio Bitcoin Jam. How are you guys doing?

2
00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:06,180
What's up, guys?

3
00:00:06,380 --> 00:00:07,560
Hey, DK. Hey, Mac.

4
00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:07,740
Hey.

5
00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:08,700
Hey, guys.

6
00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:14,540
So, two of the three of us are in the Presidio right now, but we decided to do the show remote

7
00:00:14,540 --> 00:00:20,600
because I think we're all either sick or are likely to become sick or something. So, how

8
00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:21,120
are you guys feeling?

9
00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:23,660
On the path to recovery.

10
00:00:24,940 --> 00:00:28,880
Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good. I was just saying, an unusual situation, you know, holding

11
00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:33,760
down the fort here in the Presidio. But I was telling DK, I wanted to say this story. I have

12
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:40,320
a newfound appreciation for San Francisco. And here I'm chugging a little bit of an electrolyte

13
00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:45,320
solution I made with salt and water. I've been on the road for the last week and a half, also just

14
00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:52,160
got back super late last night. And for the first time in my life, we went out to New Mexico for a

15
00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:55,760
visit to the Santa Fe Institute, which that, by the way, is its own interesting rabbit hole we

16
00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:00,860
should chat more about, but Santa Fe Institute was founded by a Nobel laureate from Los Alamos,

17
00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,700
and they basically studied complexity. Very, very, very interesting place, really interesting work

18
00:01:05,700 --> 00:01:10,360
there. And I've always thought of complexity, and in many ways, is the basis for investing,

19
00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:16,100
like investing is applied complexity theory. Anyway, so that was very cool. But it's a lot

20
00:01:16,100 --> 00:01:21,960
hotter in the desert, and there's a lot of elevation, and I continued to do my normal sauna

21
00:01:21,960 --> 00:01:28,260
routine and when the water fountain was broken and all of those factors continued to add up.

22
00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,180
Also, we drove there and back, which you guys know I never drive.

23
00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:33,200
So stacking all of the-

24
00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,600
From San Francisco to Santa Fe?

25
00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:36,360
And back.

26
00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:38,960
Is that like a day or two of driving?

27
00:01:39,500 --> 00:01:40,880
Many, many, many, many.

28
00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:42,220
We've been on the road for over a week.

29
00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,000
It's been an experience.

30
00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,660
I'm good not driving for another lifetime.

31
00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:49,100
And anyways, it was interesting.

32
00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:49,500
It was fun.

33
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,440
But yeah, man, I was driving.

34
00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:57,540
And after the sauna, we were driving out of New Mexico, and I came to a gas station.

35
00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,580
I was just like, I think I'm kind of starting to lose consciousness.

36
00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:01,960
I need to pull over now.

37
00:02:02,460 --> 00:02:04,960
And so we did, and we got in there, and called paramedics.

38
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,920
And I was like, all right, if I, you know, shout out to Anjali.

39
00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,700
I was like, I'm trusting you to get me IVs, and if this is the end, this is the end.

40
00:02:12,260 --> 00:02:13,540
But anyways, they came.

41
00:02:13,740 --> 00:02:17,900
I got a lot of nasty, nasty electrolyte solutions, but I drank them, and I'm alive.

42
00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:19,320
Anyways, happy to be back in San Francisco.

43
00:02:19,740 --> 00:02:21,500
Happy to be back chatting with Bitcoin with you guys.

44
00:02:21,500 --> 00:02:22,980
not be on the road, not be in the heat.

45
00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,280
Yeah, well, we're glad to have you

46
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:26,980
and you're still alive, which is good news.

47
00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:29,280
And

48
00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:30,840
I think we

49
00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:32,440
have the coldest

50
00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,300
summer on record. I think the

51
00:02:35,300 --> 00:02:36,980
coldest June on record in San Francisco

52
00:02:36,980 --> 00:02:38,800
since 2002.

53
00:02:39,420 --> 00:02:39,720
Excellent.

54
00:02:40,940 --> 00:02:43,300
Try to stay healthy. Get more

55
00:02:43,300 --> 00:02:45,500
sauna time in the cold.

56
00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:46,620
When you're better, maybe we can...

57
00:02:46,620 --> 00:02:49,460
Well, when you're better, let me know we can go sauna

58
00:02:49,460 --> 00:02:50,860
together. Alright, I love it.

59
00:02:50,860 --> 00:02:54,780
Steve, we'll get you in there too. It'll help with your cold as well.

60
00:02:55,540 --> 00:02:58,320
Yeah, Steve's still never been to the sauna. What kind of podcaster are you?

61
00:02:58,560 --> 00:02:59,080
I know, man.

62
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,040
I haven't checked all the boxes yet.

63
00:03:02,700 --> 00:03:06,780
Okay, but at least you're starting. You have the Bitcoin treasury company that you're going to announce that you're starting, right?

64
00:03:07,100 --> 00:03:07,400
Yeah.

65
00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,080
As any good podcaster would.

66
00:03:10,780 --> 00:03:13,120
Missing that check mark as well.

67
00:03:14,940 --> 00:03:17,100
What do you bring into the conversation here? Come on.

68
00:03:17,100 --> 00:03:23,600
all you have is like technical knowledge and it's gonna be a rocket ship baby

69
00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,800
going up

70
00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:36,800
um so uh okay so in a more serious note we the news of the week i think i think we missed

71
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:42,660
last week because it was the fourth of july so we've actually haven't convened in like a week

72
00:03:42,660 --> 00:03:44,780
and a half now. So we've got... That's why we're doing

73
00:03:44,780 --> 00:03:46,660
a special edition Wednesday.

74
00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:48,640
Special edition Wednesday. Because

75
00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:50,720
we missed all of last week and we

76
00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,700
didn't want to go two full weeks.

77
00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,720
So now we're going to do one today

78
00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,880
and then we'll do one. We'll get back on schedule

79
00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:58,280
next week.

80
00:03:58,660 --> 00:04:00,600
Yeah. So a week from Friday we'll be back

81
00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:01,900
on regular schedule. Yeah.

82
00:04:02,700 --> 00:04:04,800
Cool. And I'll be in the studio. I don't know about you guys

83
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,600
but I'll be around. I don't know.

84
00:04:07,340 --> 00:04:07,740
Good.

85
00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:09,680
Yeah?

86
00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:12,120
If you'll have me. We'll have you.

87
00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:19,420
We'll have you. If you've got your Bitcoin treasury company ready to go by then, invite it back. Otherwise, don't talk to us.

88
00:04:20,620 --> 00:04:25,760
Well, it's more we need to investigate bacterial pneumonia, how contagious it is.

89
00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,760
Because I did not think it was contagious, but now it appears it is.

90
00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:37,560
Right. Jen was worried and I said, oh, I think it's non-communicable. And she's got on chat GPT and she's like, no, it's definitely communicable.

91
00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:48,620
we need some complexity scientists to check that out steve yeah okay so the news of the week i think

92
00:04:48,620 --> 00:04:53,540
we've got a few things that happened uh that are worth noting and we can obviously take this in any

93
00:04:53,540 --> 00:05:01,260
direction but uh i saw this 100 million dollar venture capital raised by ego death capital and

94
00:05:01,260 --> 00:05:07,980
my understanding ego death has been operating as a bitcoin only vc for several years already and

95
00:05:07,980 --> 00:05:14,480
made a lot of prominent investments and so a new capital infusion of 100 million dollars to back

96
00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:19,980
i presume it's bitcoin focused company going forward um that's good news for the ecosystem

97
00:05:19,980 --> 00:05:25,760
good news for bitcoin good news for the development ecosystem around around kind of new startups in

98
00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:30,140
in bitcoin do you guys have you guys talked to any of the folks over there do you guys know

99
00:05:30,140 --> 00:05:31,740
much about kind of the plans?

100
00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:35,920
Probably as much as you have.

101
00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:36,700
Okay.

102
00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:39,600
So just heard it on the news.

103
00:05:40,740 --> 00:05:42,400
Any favorite investments?

104
00:05:42,780 --> 00:05:43,800
I know they did Fetty.

105
00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:45,740
I had pneumonia the past week, so.

106
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:46,400
Okay, see.

107
00:05:46,900 --> 00:05:48,940
I almost done an organization in New Mexico.

108
00:05:48,940 --> 00:05:52,720
My outreach was at zero the past week.

109
00:05:53,300 --> 00:05:53,780
Got it.

110
00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:55,880
Yeah, I mean, I have a little bit of color on this.

111
00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:56,900
I mean, I haven't talked to them recently,

112
00:05:56,980 --> 00:05:58,500
but I mean, we obviously worked together

113
00:05:58,500 --> 00:06:00,300
on a lot of deals in the past.

114
00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:02,960
And I think it's interesting for a couple of reasons.

115
00:06:03,140 --> 00:06:07,280
And I would say Lynn is probably who I speak the most with.

116
00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,040
But in a couple of other investments,

117
00:06:11,540 --> 00:06:13,480
a lot of the same companies we've invested in,

118
00:06:13,620 --> 00:06:15,840
they're focused a little bit later stage now.

119
00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,100
So like Breeze, I invested early in them out of Highmind,

120
00:06:20,100 --> 00:06:23,420
and then they led both Acid and now I guess Series A

121
00:06:23,420 --> 00:06:26,200
or kind of a larger round out of this new fund, I think,

122
00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:26,840
which is interesting.

123
00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:28,940
and a couple others.

124
00:06:29,300 --> 00:06:30,260
Fetty is one as well.

125
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:31,700
We've also co-invested in.

126
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,140
I think it's exciting because of two things.

127
00:06:35,280 --> 00:06:39,140
One, just speaking from my own personal experience,

128
00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,900
when raising Fund One for High Mind back in 2021,

129
00:06:43,620 --> 00:06:44,860
it was a very different environment.

130
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:45,900
Interest rates were zero

131
00:06:45,900 --> 00:06:48,660
and people were watching Bitcoin rip through the moon.

132
00:06:48,840 --> 00:06:50,500
And so there was a lot of enthusiasm

133
00:06:50,500 --> 00:06:52,260
and I think it was frankly a lot easier

134
00:06:52,260 --> 00:06:54,060
to raise money back then.

135
00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,140
I think a lot of companies and funds

136
00:06:56,140 --> 00:06:59,820
have frankly gone through a little bit of a winter for the last couple of years.

137
00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,800
And, you know, even with the price kind of ticking back up, it still obviously hasn't

138
00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:05,380
gone parabolic.

139
00:07:05,540 --> 00:07:08,560
So you haven't seen any of that kind of crazy euphoria that you saw back in 21.

140
00:07:09,220 --> 00:07:11,840
And so, you know, I think they put out a press release.

141
00:07:11,980 --> 00:07:14,600
They were starting to raise this around, I think, two years ago or something, a year

142
00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:15,040
and a half ago.

143
00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:21,080
It's certainly been long raise, but seeing that complete is, you know, great because

144
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,380
it's a sign that, you know, the tides are perhaps turning and capital that understands

145
00:07:25,380 --> 00:07:29,140
of Bitcoin understands the long-term trajectory of this, is also interested in the companies

146
00:07:29,140 --> 00:07:32,640
that are actually building on top, well, the infrastructure itself and then the applications

147
00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:37,580
on top. So I think that's a great sign. I think we're probably, my hope as well is that this is

148
00:07:37,580 --> 00:07:40,560
going to be a turning point, not only for the funds, but obviously downstream of the funds,

149
00:07:40,660 --> 00:07:44,480
the companies are now able to go out there and raise their Series A's and Series B's and et cetera.

150
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:49,080
I think the other thing that's interesting is the Bitcoin sort of focused ecosystem has very much

151
00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:55,260
lacked a Series A focused fund, also kind of Series B as well. So there's been a lot of capital

152
00:07:55,260 --> 00:07:58,060
with the seed stage, obviously like folks like myself

153
00:07:58,060 --> 00:08:00,660
with the pre-seed stage even that are going super, super early.

154
00:08:01,340 --> 00:08:04,380
But since Kraft used to do a lot of investing

155
00:08:04,380 --> 00:08:06,000
at this sort of series age stage

156
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:07,260
with companies like Lightning Labs,

157
00:08:07,620 --> 00:08:08,960
but over the last couple of years,

158
00:08:09,220 --> 00:08:11,300
something that I've seen run into repeatedly

159
00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:13,400
is that there's a gap in the market of,

160
00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,080
okay, this seed stage company has a little bit of traction.

161
00:08:16,740 --> 00:08:18,400
Now they need to go out there and raise,

162
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,740
let's call it $3 to $10 million to get to the next phase.

163
00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:24,760
And frankly, there really haven't been

164
00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,280
a lot of those funds. Crypto funds are not really focused on Bitcoin. Traditional VC occasionally

165
00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:33,820
will do some, like obviously, you know, Coastal and Founders Fund with Lava, but that has not

166
00:08:33,820 --> 00:08:38,240
been the norm. So I think it's definitely a gap in the market. And, you know, I think this is

167
00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:43,180
going to be the first of many we see for new fundraisers and for hopefully, you know, other

168
00:08:43,180 --> 00:08:47,400
traditional Series A funds as well coming in and starting to fill that gap. And do they really

169
00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:53,780
exclusively focus on kind of traditional Series A, Series B, take a board, see kind of larger

170
00:08:53,780 --> 00:08:58,320
checks? Like what's, what's the typical check size? Do you know? Well, I think that shifted over time.

171
00:08:58,340 --> 00:09:02,520
I mean, and they're a fun one that you did a lot of seed or they're primarily seed focused as well.

172
00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,340
So I don't know exactly how their, how their plans have evolved. Um, but, uh, I think they're

173
00:09:06,340 --> 00:09:09,920
definitely trying to do more in the few million dollar range. It looks like like in the one to

174
00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:15,100
four or $5 million range. Um, but I've been, you know, I'm, I'm obviously no insider info there.

175
00:09:15,460 --> 00:09:19,200
Um, and, uh, it looks like, yeah, I think a bit more traditional trying to get a board seat and

176
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,560
that sort of thing. And would you pull them into like a seed deal you're looking at to also

177
00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:29,780
co-invest in seed or do you feel like they're more like graduated beyond that scale yeah i mean i i

178
00:09:29,780 --> 00:09:34,700
you know obviously don't know what the current state is the press release um that uh that you

179
00:09:34,700 --> 00:09:38,360
shared you know said they have some seed money left and so yeah i mean definitely i've i've

180
00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,660
co-invested with them and you know would definitely consider putting them in for for a seed round i

181
00:09:42,660 --> 00:09:47,360
would say at least for me over time i've gone even earlier so now i'm much more in like how do we get

182
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:53,300
this one it's just one or two guys um or dals and uh get that absolute first money in so i would say

183
00:09:53,300 --> 00:09:58,160
that's probably, you know, too early for them now, kind of where they're scaling up. I think in that

184
00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:04,500
seed round where there's a little bit of traction is maybe an area we would both play. But it looks

185
00:10:04,500 --> 00:10:07,020
like they're definitely trying to go a little bit later stage, which I think is great for the

186
00:10:07,020 --> 00:10:13,680
ecosystem. Yeah. And it looks like I think from both what we saw at the Presidio Bitcoin hackathon,

187
00:10:13,980 --> 00:10:20,000
as well as just all of the energy we see happening around Vibe coding, it feels like there's a lot of

188
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:25,340
new ways to get started in a sense and i think my understanding is i don't know if you're still in

189
00:10:25,340 --> 00:10:29,520
deep discussion here but my understanding was that out of the procedure bitcoin hackathon there was

190
00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:36,980
at least one if maybe more that you know proto companies or might be companies um you know i'm

191
00:10:36,980 --> 00:10:41,820
just curious sort of from where you sit max did you end up investing out of that or are you still

192
00:10:41,820 --> 00:10:46,640
pursuing that or sort of what is the what is the very earliest stage look like because i feel like

193
00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,900
the earliest stage from the procedure of Bitcoin hackathon and what we've seen in

194
00:10:49,900 --> 00:10:52,660
VibeCoding is sort of undergoing a lot of changes right now.

195
00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,800
And I wonder sort of how that impacts your business because you're like at the very

196
00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:56,680
earliest stage.

197
00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:57,380
Yeah.

198
00:10:57,920 --> 00:10:58,140
Yeah.

199
00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:02,900
I mean, so out of the, I have not invested in anyone specifically, anyone new.

200
00:11:02,980 --> 00:11:06,900
I mean, some of the hackers, obviously like Lalu are already founders of existing

201
00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:10,480
high-mining work codes, but I've not made any new investments out of that yet.

202
00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:13,760
There's one that I'm continuing to chat with.

203
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,440
And I think it's not something that's going to happen overnight, but I would say that one's

204
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,880
still in play and we'll see, we'll see where things go over the next month or two.

205
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:26,540
I think, you know, one thing that's maybe changed a little bit for me now is I view coming in as

206
00:11:26,540 --> 00:11:30,900
that first check is like, there's still a gap where, you know, maybe someone has a really good

207
00:11:30,900 --> 00:11:35,160
idea, but they want to be able to, you know, quit their job or, you know, they want to be able to

208
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:40,400
make one or two key hires or contractors. It's maybe the difference between, you know, I don't

209
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,140
know, like just having a great technical product and having it look beautiful or something like

210
00:11:43,140 --> 00:11:49,220
that. So I definitely think there's still going to be, you know, a lot of room for some of that

211
00:11:49,220 --> 00:11:53,780
really early money, sort of almost like angel money, which is, I think, really helpful to get

212
00:11:53,780 --> 00:11:57,440
started. But at the same time, to your point, you know, even if you don't get crazy revenue

213
00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:02,900
immediately, like I also as an investor do expect to see now with the, you know, the advent of vibe

214
00:12:02,900 --> 00:12:07,720
coding tools, like I want to see some like some demonstration of traction, right? Like I may have

215
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,320
a thesis that it matches, but you should be able to show some data points. It doesn't necessarily

216
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:17,000
need to be revenue, but some data points are like, yes, there is interest in this thesis that I'm

217
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:22,260
putting out there. Do you have any kind of requests for startups or things that you

218
00:12:22,260 --> 00:12:25,060
imagine should be built, but you haven't seen people building yet?

219
00:12:25,540 --> 00:12:31,240
Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, on the taking a giant step back, because it's something I've

220
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,740
been thinking about, you know, as I'm putting together some more information for some of my LPs.

221
00:12:35,740 --> 00:12:41,400
and I would say if you take a giant step back

222
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:45,880
and you say, okay, AI is going to drive the cost

223
00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,500
of app development towards or asymptotic with zero,

224
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,380
what is still scarce in that world, right?

225
00:12:55,460 --> 00:12:57,320
So I put on my sort of like Bitcoiner,

226
00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:58,420
like what's great for the world hat

227
00:12:58,420 --> 00:12:59,500
and then I put on my investor hat.

228
00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:01,880
I put on my investor hat, I'm like,

229
00:13:01,980 --> 00:13:04,140
what's actually scarce in a world where open protocols,

230
00:13:04,260 --> 00:13:05,600
things like Bitcoin, Lightning, and Nostra,

231
00:13:05,740 --> 00:13:10,620
allow for interoperability of data, interoperability of identity with Noster,

232
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,660
and plug into open payment networks.

233
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,860
And now with Vibe Coding Tools, it's a lot of easy switching costs,

234
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:20,880
especially if you can bring that identity with you with Noster.

235
00:13:21,180 --> 00:13:22,380
So what's still scarce in that world?

236
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,900
Well, I come up with three major things that are still scarce, arguably four.

237
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:28,660
One is obviously Bitcoin itself,

238
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,740
so companies that are able to start stacking and building that stack quickly.

239
00:13:32,420 --> 00:13:33,460
That's very valuable.

240
00:13:33,940 --> 00:13:36,840
The second is human attention, of course,

241
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:38,680
or the attention, let's say,

242
00:13:39,020 --> 00:13:40,480
of the entity that owns the capital.

243
00:13:40,740 --> 00:13:44,140
So not to be speciesist, perhaps that as over time.

244
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,980
But attention, which is in fact all you need,

245
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,280
attention is still a very scarce resource,

246
00:13:49,580 --> 00:13:51,200
but that's a little bit trickier

247
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:52,760
because then you're actually playing for like,

248
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,600
what's the thing that's going to get hot?

249
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,460
And I think that could shift quickly over time,

250
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,000
like films versus longstanding,

251
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:00,900
sort of getting trapped into a network

252
00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:01,940
like a Facebook or something.

253
00:14:01,940 --> 00:14:04,300
and so I definitely think there's always going to be

254
00:14:04,300 --> 00:14:06,140
investment opportunity to find

255
00:14:06,140 --> 00:14:07,760
what gets hot whether that's an app

256
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:08,800
whether that's a podcast

257
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,640
everything is competing for the same resource there

258
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:12,680
which is human attention

259
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:15,860
so there's always going to be money to be made there

260
00:14:15,860 --> 00:14:17,780
but I think that's going to be a lot more

261
00:14:17,780 --> 00:14:19,480
Hollywood-esque at this point

262
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,440
it's going to be a lot more projects that come quickly

263
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,420
teams come to get together, they make a lot of money on it

264
00:14:23,420 --> 00:14:24,340
if they do well

265
00:14:24,340 --> 00:14:27,140
but then they break up and try new things

266
00:14:27,140 --> 00:14:29,380
and I think that attention cycle is going to get faster and faster

267
00:14:29,380 --> 00:14:31,860
so I think that's frankly hard

268
00:14:31,860 --> 00:14:38,300
to invest in now. And unless you have some real strong thesis or alpha around that, I think that's

269
00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:44,340
tricky. The third thing though, and this is what I'm getting increasingly obsessed with, is the

270
00:14:44,340 --> 00:14:50,000
infrastructure itself. And man, we need to do a whole show on this and potentially way more than

271
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:56,700
a show. But I am basically, as you guys know, longtime Solar Bull, longtime Solar Maxi along

272
00:14:56,700 --> 00:15:02,280
with Bitcoin. And the deeper I'm getting in this right now, the deeper I'm seeing that

273
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:11,280
the ability to build, like the demand right now for compute is literally insatiable.

274
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:16,480
And one of the biggest limiting factors is energy. And there are some very wild ideas I'm exploring

275
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,240
at the moment around, you know, there's still all this old world thinking of like, well, we need to

276
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,740
find a way to connect you to the grid and this and that. But if you follow, just follow the curves,

277
00:15:24,740 --> 00:15:28,680
Just follow the curves and see how much cheaper solar keeps getting reliably, how much cheaper

278
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:29,920
batteries keep getting reliably.

279
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:35,480
And you pair that with what I call sort of a new permissionless paradigm, which I think

280
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:40,280
Bitcoin is definitely what kicked it all off of like, oh, no, we don't need, you know,

281
00:15:40,340 --> 00:15:41,400
potentially to connect to the grid.

282
00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:42,900
We can do everything behind the meter.

283
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,360
We can literally not even sign contracts, but we know as long as there's a kilowatt hour

284
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,780
produced, there is a buyer of last resort that pays for it.

285
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,480
I think that paradigm is going to come more and more into the compute realm as well.

286
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,940
so I am increasingly becoming obsessed with this idea that there are ways to build

287
00:15:57,940 --> 00:16:03,740
you know call it even like new grids that just like leave the old grid behind and I think there's

288
00:16:03,740 --> 00:16:09,240
tremendous tremendous tremendous opportunity for people who are kind of like big wild thinkers out

289
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:14,340
there that obviously requires a lot more capital than I have to deploy but I think you know there's

290
00:16:14,340 --> 00:16:19,120
still room for me in that early stage to help someone get that idea off the ground but I'll

291
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,480
have more coming on that but that's an area I'm getting pretty obsessed with yeah I mean it seems

292
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:27,280
like if you have a big idea like that, it doesn't need to necessarily fit your existing kind of

293
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:32,560
capital structure, right? You could go raise new capital for something big and ambitious that's

294
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,680
more focused on a particular venture, right? Yeah, no, I'm definitely exploring all that.

295
00:16:36,780 --> 00:16:40,140
So I think, you know, and again, I think a fourth area that's scarce we've all talked about is

296
00:16:40,140 --> 00:16:44,100
position in the Lightning Network itself. So I continue to be also very, very, very bullish

297
00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:48,680
on any company that, you know, ideally own some, you know, human attention or some,

298
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,120
network effect like Cash App or something.

299
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,220
And I think a lot of the apps out there today

300
00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:55,340
do that or have

301
00:16:55,340 --> 00:16:56,840
the potential to do that. Things like Albi,

302
00:16:57,860 --> 00:16:58,840
Breeze, which is

303
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,040
really exciting, sort of the SDK adoption

304
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,300
they're getting. And I do think that that position,

305
00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:05,220
the sort of railroad analogy we've used is

306
00:17:05,220 --> 00:17:07,060
also very good. And I'm sure there's others I'm not thinking of.

307
00:17:07,540 --> 00:17:09,180
So to be clear, I'm still very bullish on a lot of

308
00:17:09,180 --> 00:17:11,220
the traditional Bitcoin companies, but I

309
00:17:11,220 --> 00:17:13,000
think that, and

310
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,160
companies that integrate Nostra, but I'm

311
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,040
increasingly thinking it's like using Bitcoin,

312
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,600
using Lightning, using Nostra is going to become kind of table stakes. And so then the question

313
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:26,120
becomes where beyond that does value actually accrue and where is potentially capturable?

314
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,740
And I think some more of the actual hard infrastructure stuff is getting really

315
00:17:30,740 --> 00:17:37,400
interesting to me. Yeah. Have we seen any kind of talent marketplaces on kind of Nostra,

316
00:17:37,580 --> 00:17:41,640
anything experimented there that looks interesting to you? Like LinkedIn or like,

317
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:46,940
what do you mean? Well, I was thinking maybe a little more up top. Yeah. TopTel.

318
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:48,540
This is a great example.

319
00:17:48,980 --> 00:17:52,660
Or like, yeah, kind of Upwork is a more open public one.

320
00:17:53,100 --> 00:17:54,600
TopTail is a bit more curated, but.

321
00:17:55,460 --> 00:17:57,800
Yeah, I mean, obviously we've talked a little bit about,

322
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,580
you know, Unstock, which has the AIs hiring people.

323
00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:05,700
I think that's still like a kind of brand new model

324
00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:07,720
that could only exist on something open and permissionless

325
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:08,180
like Nostra.

326
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:09,340
I'm sure there are.

327
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:10,780
I mean, honestly, the thing is,

328
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,400
it's getting hard to track all the sort of like

329
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,820
long tail experimental Nostra apps, which is great.

330
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:16,340
Because that means we're seeing experimentation.

331
00:18:16,340 --> 00:18:26,420
So if someone's in the chat and they know of one, I would bet money that someone has tried something in that direction, but nothing that's gotten big enough yet to really get on my radar.

332
00:18:26,420 --> 00:18:51,720
Because I have a specific idea I was going to float that I think touches on an idea that I think Steve and I have, I forget if this was in our main chat or kind of in a side chat, but I think when I was experimenting with the VO2, or sorry, VO3 videos, so the videos that you can speak, I think Steve had played around a little bit and kind of was like, ah, I can't get it to do what I want.

333
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,580
Is that an accurate representation, Steve?

334
00:18:55,140 --> 00:19:01,660
And did you ever end up finding happiness with that or not?

335
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:04,300
Or unhappiness?

336
00:19:05,340 --> 00:19:07,580
I haven't invested more time in VO3.

337
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:08,680
Right.

338
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:16,640
So this is kind of my point is I wouldn't consider myself a VO3 expert, but I have a little bit of a process that I can do.

339
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:23,180
like so if steve were to propose hey i'd like a video that helps me tell this story or uses this

340
00:19:23,180 --> 00:19:30,280
kind of script i think i could take his input and use my knowledge is a little bit more advanced

341
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:38,260
than steve's to do some meta prompting and get a thing that steve might like and i want in a sense

342
00:19:38,260 --> 00:19:42,660
that it's not like a film producer because i'm not i'm not good at that i'm not like a traditional

343
00:19:42,660 --> 00:19:50,780
filmmaker or video editor but i do have some some amount of skill at vo3 video creation relative to

344
00:19:50,780 --> 00:19:55,620
the general population i think we might have talked about it on the show i definitely remember

345
00:19:55,620 --> 00:20:01,300
talking about this with you though but i do think that's like a great job category people who have

346
00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:07,560
leveled up their skills in prompting and then offered that as a service to others yeah so so

347
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:08,860
I could see it in video production.

348
00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:11,300
I could see it in, you know, vibe coding.

349
00:20:11,940 --> 00:20:14,620
You know, it feels like there's a lot of opportunity here

350
00:20:14,620 --> 00:20:17,300
to sort of cross, you know,

351
00:20:17,460 --> 00:20:19,480
help people's ideas come to life

352
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,220
even if they can't fully prompt them.

353
00:20:21,220 --> 00:20:24,320
But other people who aren't traditional, in a sense,

354
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:25,380
they're good at prompting,

355
00:20:25,420 --> 00:20:27,920
but maybe not good at the traditional creative process.

356
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,240
Actually, it's like a new type of supply

357
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,020
or inventory you could bring online.

358
00:20:32,340 --> 00:20:35,060
And that when you're bringing new inventory online,

359
00:20:35,060 --> 00:20:45,280
And that's sort of what usually gives rise to new marketplaces because you don't have people who are already entrenched and already know how they make money and do their craft.

360
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:46,820
You sort of like enable new people.

361
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:52,440
That's kind of the rise of Airbnb, for example, or the rise of Uber is that concept.

362
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,540
So I almost feel like that's a little bit of a request for a startup I would make.

363
00:20:55,540 --> 00:21:03,740
um you know and and i wonder is the right way to build that to start in a fully like permissionless

364
00:21:03,740 --> 00:21:08,740
nostr publishing the events and the needs and the jobs and build a client for that and then

365
00:21:08,740 --> 00:21:13,940
bitcoin for payments or is it better to simplify the ux with the centralized thing with a view

366
00:21:13,940 --> 00:21:19,320
toward how you get it like how you could get it into the kind of nostr bitcoin ecosystem because

367
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:25,520
there's sort of like a different use case needed like like independent of the censorship resistance

368
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:30,700
of all of this there's actually like a marketplace need in my opinion anyway um what do you think

369
00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:38,240
well can i make a suggestion not of that specific idea first of all i i totally agree that idea i

370
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:44,320
like it um but i know you haven't you have many ideas max does a lot of us have entrepreneurial

371
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:52,320
ideas um it would be great to like crowdsource those and create a list it would be great to

372
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,880
bring that to the monthly builder meetup.

373
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:55,480
Yeah.

374
00:21:55,740 --> 00:21:56,080
Bitcoin,

375
00:21:56,460 --> 00:21:58,420
bring it up to global builder meetups.

376
00:21:59,280 --> 00:21:59,720
And,

377
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:00,180
um,

378
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,340
and then it'd be great to attract entrepreneurs to work out of

379
00:22:03,340 --> 00:22:04,120
proximity to Bitcoin.

380
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:05,040
Yes.

381
00:22:05,100 --> 00:22:06,260
To work on some of those ideas.

382
00:22:06,380 --> 00:22:07,160
So it'd be good,

383
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,720
good to like sort of institutionalize this so that we don't share a good

384
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:12,420
idea in the show.

385
00:22:12,420 --> 00:22:13,940
And then it's sort of gets lost.

386
00:22:14,140 --> 00:22:14,540
So,

387
00:22:14,540 --> 00:22:14,860
um,

388
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:15,960
maybe give,

389
00:22:16,140 --> 00:22:17,720
give us an action item there to,

390
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:18,700
to follow up on that.

391
00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:19,320
That's a great.

392
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:20,020
So what,

393
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:20,900
what is that?

394
00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:25,340
that's like a list that's published on twitter or like part of the city of bitcoin website or

395
00:22:25,340 --> 00:22:32,520
part of the the builder meetup page or yeah i don't have a specific location in mind um so we

396
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,680
did figure that out but i mean for right now at least let's write it down on a notepad in front

397
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:47,540
of you yeah um but uh you know ultimately we'd want that to be a public published list um that

398
00:22:47,540 --> 00:22:54,680
others could contribute to so maybe it's on github but then auto published to a website that's

399
00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:02,560
more accessible um but then but i think the the more meaty thing would be like then actively

400
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:13,357
discussing it at builder meetups or even better actively vibe coding it ahead someone someone vibe codes it ahead of time and then demos it at the builder meetup

401
00:23:14,077 --> 00:23:14,257
Yeah.

402
00:23:14,917 --> 00:23:16,237
And there's venture capitalists

403
00:23:16,237 --> 00:23:17,257
in the room as well, right?

404
00:23:17,377 --> 00:23:18,537
So we could help

405
00:23:18,537 --> 00:23:20,637
match make as well.

406
00:23:21,597 --> 00:23:22,757
I mean, it's kind of like

407
00:23:22,757 --> 00:23:24,637
YC has their RFPs as well.

408
00:23:24,977 --> 00:23:26,017
I think that, yeah,

409
00:23:26,017 --> 00:23:26,577
I mean, like I think

410
00:23:26,577 --> 00:23:27,877
doing it super informally is great.

411
00:23:27,957 --> 00:23:28,657
And then maybe, you know,

412
00:23:28,697 --> 00:23:29,657
over time institutionalize

413
00:23:29,657 --> 00:23:30,277
like a couple of like,

414
00:23:30,377 --> 00:23:30,897
no, this is like

415
00:23:30,897 --> 00:23:32,377
the really, really big idea.

416
00:23:33,297 --> 00:23:37,377
You know, maybe that makes the Presidio Bitcoin website or something. I think it's, yeah, I love it.

417
00:23:37,377 --> 00:23:43,617
i'm guessing i'm guessing you won't mind me sharing this but um another one of our mutuals

418
00:23:43,617 --> 00:23:49,137
uh my guess is he'd love somebody to just take and run with it but he may do it if nobody else

419
00:23:49,137 --> 00:23:54,957
but he was sort of suggesting it would be helpful to have a little bit of like a product hunt like

420
00:23:54,957 --> 00:24:00,237
community where you could gather up all the vibe coded bitcoin noster projects and kind of

421
00:24:00,237 --> 00:24:04,917
see what people are launching and what's kind of bubbling to the top of interestingness

422
00:24:04,917 --> 00:24:08,297
so I told him to start with a

423
00:24:08,297 --> 00:24:10,397
stacker news territory but I think

424
00:24:10,397 --> 00:24:12,477
he has ideas even outside

425
00:24:12,477 --> 00:24:14,037
of what maybe fit that mold

426
00:24:14,037 --> 00:24:16,477
I think the builder meetup

427
00:24:16,477 --> 00:24:17,617
can sort of

428
00:24:17,617 --> 00:24:20,437
facilitate that as well

429
00:24:20,437 --> 00:24:22,277
we should potentially consider

430
00:24:22,277 --> 00:24:24,217
starting a builder stacker news territory

431
00:24:24,217 --> 00:24:26,117
maybe that would be a good place to have

432
00:24:26,117 --> 00:24:28,617
a discussion and some of the lists for each month

433
00:24:28,617 --> 00:24:29,737
yeah

434
00:24:29,737 --> 00:24:31,837
it seems like a great

435
00:24:31,837 --> 00:24:33,257
I like the fact that it already

436
00:24:33,257 --> 00:24:38,637
you know like stacker news already has a bitcoin centric audience and kind of all the you know

437
00:24:38,637 --> 00:24:44,377
lightning bitcoin payment stuff and it's all kind of built so you can kind of just show up and

438
00:24:44,377 --> 00:24:49,777
prototype it there and then if you want to do more advanced stuff you can customize later yeah and the

439
00:24:49,777 --> 00:24:53,697
quality of discussion lately i think is continue to improve which is something that i i'm excited

440
00:24:53,697 --> 00:24:57,177
about um i do want to come back to that idea itself though because i think it's very interesting

441
00:24:57,177 --> 00:25:02,437
and it's, you know, it's, um, we mentioned, I guess two months ago now, three months ago.

442
00:25:02,697 --> 00:25:07,777
Um, that moves quickly, but I remember you guys remember I was trying to vibe code an app,

443
00:25:08,077 --> 00:25:12,417
um, you know, still could. And I still also haven't put in the time to figure it out yet. So,

444
00:25:12,557 --> 00:25:18,697
you know, now that I'm back in SF, maybe they will, but, um, I also got frustrated. I was like,

445
00:25:18,737 --> 00:25:22,577
ah, I can't one shot this. It's, you know, a little too hard. And so I ended up putting out

446
00:25:22,577 --> 00:25:29,397
the bounty for 100,000 Bitcoin satoshis, whichever you prefer. And I ended up putting that out there

447
00:25:29,397 --> 00:25:34,197
and I got a guy that built 80% of it and I ended up, you know, giving him the bounty.

448
00:25:34,637 --> 00:25:39,197
I think there's, you know, two kind of interesting ways this could go almost. I mean,

449
00:25:39,537 --> 00:25:43,757
the beauty of doing it this sort of Noster and Bitcoin way is it's permissionless, right? So

450
00:25:43,757 --> 00:25:48,397
what you get from just kind of doing it as like a raw bounty to help you with getting your prompts

451
00:25:48,397 --> 00:25:51,317
or something like that is, you know,

452
00:25:51,797 --> 00:25:54,537
you can work with NIMS, AIs,

453
00:25:55,017 --> 00:25:57,317
you know, people that don't have traditional whatever.

454
00:25:57,757 --> 00:25:58,457
For whatever reason,

455
00:25:58,557 --> 00:26:01,777
they don't want to have their government name listed.

456
00:26:02,257 --> 00:26:04,077
And so in this case,

457
00:26:04,157 --> 00:26:06,457
the account that ended up helping me was called Lemon.

458
00:26:06,957 --> 00:26:08,537
I have no idea who this was.

459
00:26:08,657 --> 00:26:10,237
I have no idea if it's a human, it's an AI.

460
00:26:10,357 --> 00:26:12,037
All I know is they built what I asked for

461
00:26:12,037 --> 00:26:13,057
and I paid them.

462
00:26:14,037 --> 00:26:15,837
And so I think that's kind of the strength

463
00:26:15,837 --> 00:26:17,377
of sort of the Nostra version of this.

464
00:26:17,377 --> 00:26:18,957
And I think that's where something like unstuck,

465
00:26:19,377 --> 00:26:21,457
the AI marketplace really, really,

466
00:26:21,757 --> 00:26:22,597
but it doesn't have to be AI,

467
00:26:22,677 --> 00:26:24,277
but like the open-ended marketplace

468
00:26:24,277 --> 00:26:26,457
really sort of thrives in that environment

469
00:26:26,457 --> 00:26:27,757
because it doesn't discriminate.

470
00:26:28,237 --> 00:26:30,917
And so you could say, hey, I need help with these prompts

471
00:26:30,917 --> 00:26:32,617
or with whatever.

472
00:26:33,097 --> 00:26:34,717
And, you know, here's what I'm willing to pay

473
00:26:34,717 --> 00:26:37,317
or, you know, name your own price.

474
00:26:37,997 --> 00:26:41,397
And, you know, humans and AIs can compete for that.

475
00:26:41,897 --> 00:26:42,457
So that's really cool.

476
00:26:43,057 --> 00:26:43,997
On the other hand, though,

477
00:26:44,017 --> 00:26:47,057
if I'm being sort of totally like short-term rational

478
00:26:47,057 --> 00:26:51,157
about this, I do think there's going to be another more sort of like handheld experience,

479
00:26:51,157 --> 00:26:55,097
which is like, hey, I don't just want a random prompt or like kind of like throw it out to

480
00:26:55,097 --> 00:26:58,257
the ether. I want to actually like find someone that has good reviews, like

481
00:26:58,257 --> 00:27:03,097
have them work with me as like a, you know, friend, copilot, whatever.

482
00:27:03,877 --> 00:27:06,977
And I think that probably would start better in a more centralized

483
00:27:06,977 --> 00:27:11,077
system that can have a little bit more sort of curation around it. So I think there's

484
00:27:11,077 --> 00:27:15,057
I think both opportunities would be cool. And so do you think

485
00:27:15,057 --> 00:27:20,797
it's fine like if somebody has an idea for how to get to that decentralized version would you sort

486
00:27:20,797 --> 00:27:25,597
of typically advise them start with the decentralized stuff figure out how it all works would you say

487
00:27:25,597 --> 00:27:31,117
start you know get the ux right in the centralized thing and then you can decentralize it later do you

488
00:27:31,117 --> 00:27:35,897
think that's just like a trap and then people get get stuck in the trap depends on what you want to

489
00:27:35,897 --> 00:27:40,577
do i mean i think um in general my sort of intuition is like when people say they're in

490
00:27:40,577 --> 00:27:44,757
decentralized later they almost never do i think there are a couple cases where that's likely it

491
00:27:44,757 --> 00:27:49,297
will happen. Something like Stacker News, because I think, you know, Kian is so, so committed to his

492
00:27:49,297 --> 00:27:54,717
sort of principles or philosophy. I don't think it's possible. I mean, I think if you're trying

493
00:27:54,717 --> 00:27:59,817
to build a big business immediately, probably centralized is still easier. And so that's

494
00:27:59,817 --> 00:28:05,157
awesome. If you're trying to demonstrate the power of the open protocols, then obviously I

495
00:28:05,157 --> 00:28:10,117
think you can do something really cool with Nostra. But I would say in either case, be clear about what

496
00:28:10,117 --> 00:28:14,437
your intentions are and what you want to get out of it. And so, and if you're going to go, the open

497
00:28:14,437 --> 00:28:17,757
protocol route and really try and demonstrate there's something here do something that can only

498
00:28:17,757 --> 00:28:22,397
be done with nostril bitcoin and lightning and in that case again i think it comes down to you know

499
00:28:22,397 --> 00:28:28,257
opening the hiring field to anyone or anything whereas if you're going to go the more like

500
00:28:28,257 --> 00:28:31,717
prompt marketplace i want someone to work with hold my hand that's probably a more curated

501
00:28:31,717 --> 00:28:40,837
human to human experience i would guess for now um but yeah who knows i think if you my take on

502
00:28:40,837 --> 00:28:45,357
this and i i asked because i was curious if you kind of would lean towards this or not but my

503
00:28:45,357 --> 00:28:51,737
take is that you actually can nail ux and use case very easily if you're like if you have like

504
00:28:51,737 --> 00:28:55,937
the commitment to the principles of what you want to achieve and i think like your example of like

505
00:28:55,937 --> 00:29:01,237
kian and stacker news he's like fully committed to the principles he's not like how do i keep this

506
00:29:01,237 --> 00:29:06,617
thing and build my own you know juggernaut you know centralized thing he's like it's open source

507
00:29:06,617 --> 00:29:12,737
i'm going to keep it centralized for now because it helps me kind of work through the problems and

508
00:29:12,737 --> 00:29:18,477
maybe get some more traction but i think you know he would not keep it uh centralized as soon as he

509
00:29:18,477 --> 00:29:23,077
has a path or plan for how to how to get it decentralized uh but he's sort of focused i'd

510
00:29:23,077 --> 00:29:28,117
say more on the centralized thing first so i feel like that's a relatively healthy pattern that's

511
00:29:28,117 --> 00:29:34,977
mostly underexplored like people try to go full full decentralized sort out all the challenging

512
00:29:34,977 --> 00:29:38,717
problems there while you still have challenging problems in like the core product and the UX

513
00:29:38,717 --> 00:29:40,837
and, you know, the kind of overall experience.

514
00:29:41,437 --> 00:29:41,837
Yeah.

515
00:29:42,017 --> 00:29:45,737
I mean, it's interesting because I was discussing this with one of the, a little bit of different

516
00:29:45,737 --> 00:29:47,997
contacts with one of the postdocs at the Senev Institute.

517
00:29:47,997 --> 00:29:53,677
And I think it's something that, you know, it's, it's kind of like to abstract it away,

518
00:29:53,737 --> 00:29:56,457
like is bottoms up or tops down better?

519
00:29:56,837 --> 00:29:59,757
And is anything really just bottoms up or tops down?

520
00:29:59,797 --> 00:30:04,137
And I think, you know, the takeaway from our conversation, because he's coming from a very

521
00:30:04,137 --> 00:30:10,177
different sort of place. He does a lot of like studying biology and, and yeah, just totally

522
00:30:10,177 --> 00:30:19,077
different world is one, you know, depends, depends on where you are in the cycle of an organism or

523
00:30:19,077 --> 00:30:24,457
whatever, whatever level of abstraction you want to say is growth. Two, there's no such thing as

524
00:30:24,457 --> 00:30:29,277
fully bottoms up or fully tops down. Like you could argue, for example, that all of this sort

525
00:30:29,277 --> 00:30:34,057
of in our own reality emerged bottoms up. And yet out of that emergence has come, you know,

526
00:30:34,057 --> 00:30:39,277
sort of human centralized institutions at a specific time, moment in time. So which is it?

527
00:30:39,277 --> 00:30:46,037
It's both. And yeah, I think I would just say in general, you know, one takeaway for me is maybe

528
00:30:46,037 --> 00:30:50,917
I've leaned a little too much in the like, you know, you can see even from my shirt, like the

529
00:30:50,917 --> 00:30:58,277
sort of Noster, build it from the ground up, like embrace the chaos. And I still definitely believe

530
00:30:58,277 --> 00:31:03,297
that's the sort of the trend of our sort of society, if it's going to be a free society,

531
00:31:03,297 --> 00:31:05,097
needs to follow that for sure.

532
00:31:05,497 --> 00:31:06,477
But I do think perhaps

533
00:31:06,477 --> 00:31:07,657
I've underexplored as well.

534
00:31:07,757 --> 00:31:08,777
And I think the Nostra ecosystem

535
00:31:08,777 --> 00:31:09,377
as a whole,

536
00:31:09,937 --> 00:31:11,497
where centralization

537
00:31:11,497 --> 00:31:13,037
to test something out,

538
00:31:13,077 --> 00:31:13,617
to get it right,

539
00:31:13,717 --> 00:31:14,477
can be really good.

540
00:31:14,537 --> 00:31:14,977
And that's why

541
00:31:14,977 --> 00:31:16,177
you've seen some companies,

542
00:31:16,277 --> 00:31:16,797
things like Primal,

543
00:31:16,957 --> 00:31:18,817
like there are clear advantages

544
00:31:18,817 --> 00:31:20,157
to having a small team,

545
00:31:20,517 --> 00:31:21,117
very focused,

546
00:31:21,237 --> 00:31:21,957
with a point of view,

547
00:31:22,037 --> 00:31:22,517
saying, no,

548
00:31:22,617 --> 00:31:23,937
we're going this design

549
00:31:23,937 --> 00:31:24,897
and, you know,

550
00:31:24,997 --> 00:31:26,137
ideally embrace as many

551
00:31:26,137 --> 00:31:27,937
of the sort of open principles

552
00:31:27,937 --> 00:31:28,437
as possible

553
00:31:28,437 --> 00:31:29,537
so they can, you know,

554
00:31:29,677 --> 00:31:31,257
not accidentally create

555
00:31:31,257 --> 00:31:31,857
their own protocol

556
00:31:31,857 --> 00:31:32,777
and still,

557
00:31:32,777 --> 00:31:34,057
system open.

558
00:31:34,657 --> 00:31:37,437
But look, we've said this many times

559
00:31:37,437 --> 00:31:38,897
in the show. I think one of the things Nostra

560
00:31:38,897 --> 00:31:40,797
is a community lacks.

561
00:31:41,577 --> 00:31:43,577
We have the talent, we have the principles,

562
00:31:44,117 --> 00:31:45,097
we have a lot of ideas,

563
00:31:45,337 --> 00:31:46,937
but it's like very focused entrepreneurs

564
00:31:46,937 --> 00:31:49,377
who could come in and say, this is a beautiful

565
00:31:49,377 --> 00:31:50,937
idea, but I'm going to

566
00:31:50,937 --> 00:31:53,317
centralize enough to get

567
00:31:53,317 --> 00:31:55,377
a really incredible user experience

568
00:31:55,377 --> 00:31:57,137
out there and

569
00:31:57,137 --> 00:31:59,377
use Nostra where it's valuable, but not just because

570
00:31:59,377 --> 00:32:01,417
it's an ideology. So I think if anything

571
00:32:01,417 --> 00:32:04,257
I should probably steer a bit more in that direction myself.

572
00:32:05,837 --> 00:32:06,357
Yeah.

573
00:32:06,657 --> 00:32:10,297
Yeah, I think if you can understand the intention of the person,

574
00:32:10,377 --> 00:32:16,337
I think that sometimes is better than the specific implementation of the V1

575
00:32:16,337 --> 00:32:19,317
and getting a V1 out there and getting traction

576
00:32:19,317 --> 00:32:21,937
is really, really challenging with anything new.

577
00:32:22,137 --> 00:32:24,897
So, you know, sort of pick your battles in a sense.

578
00:32:25,157 --> 00:32:27,077
And I think Primal is another good example where

579
00:32:27,077 --> 00:32:30,157
I think they've taken some heat for like their caching layer,

580
00:32:30,157 --> 00:32:34,717
which has some centralizing effects but i think they're like look this just this solves the ux

581
00:32:34,717 --> 00:32:40,557
this makes it much better and like it's open source and maybe it's still a centralized risk

582
00:32:40,557 --> 00:32:45,937
but i think they're they're threading the needle pretty well on that i'd say i agree i do want to

583
00:32:45,937 --> 00:32:50,737
add one very important caveat which is you know you do have to understand what prince what your

584
00:32:50,737 --> 00:32:54,517
principles are and from every you know person's perspective it's different and what really matters

585
00:32:54,517 --> 00:33:00,077
and i would say you know in this whole ecosystem of the things we care about and are pushing

586
00:33:00,077 --> 00:33:04,317
forward, there are certain things where you just can't sacrifice on decentralization. That's why

587
00:33:04,317 --> 00:33:10,317
we all got into Bitcoin and focused on Bitcoin and did not get swept up with the crypto hype or

588
00:33:10,317 --> 00:33:16,097
the Ethereum and all the other stuff that came after it is at that base layer,

589
00:33:16,617 --> 00:33:23,017
there is no room for compromise. Because if you allow a trend towards centralization,

590
00:33:23,537 --> 00:33:27,317
which every other ecosystem has over time, and there's always plans of, well, we start

591
00:33:27,317 --> 00:33:31,017
decentralized and then we centralize, or vice versa, we start centralizing and decentralizing,

592
00:33:31,097 --> 00:33:35,937
which has happened, oh, I don't know, never, then you lose the whole principle of the technology

593
00:33:35,937 --> 00:33:40,377
that we're building on. So I think one thing I would encourage myself and the Bitcoin and

594
00:33:40,377 --> 00:33:44,977
Nostra communities to think a bit more about is centralization and decentralization can be

595
00:33:44,977 --> 00:33:48,757
different and should be different at different layers of the stack. At the core protocol level

596
00:33:48,757 --> 00:33:53,757
for Bitcoin, there is no room for compromise. At the application layer, there's probably a lot

597
00:33:53,757 --> 00:34:02,217
more room for for centralization um while still respecting the base protocol yep cool um any on

598
00:34:02,217 --> 00:34:07,217
before we move off the topic of kind of building new things and venture capital and startups um

599
00:34:07,217 --> 00:34:14,317
i was going to mention that uh i was i just happened to be uh texting with a friend who's

600
00:34:14,317 --> 00:34:20,357
he's a you know staunch bitcoiner but not necessarily super involved in the san francisco

601
00:34:20,357 --> 00:34:26,777
startup scene and he sent me a link to uh horizon and he was like hey this looks really cool have

602
00:34:26,777 --> 00:34:29,957
you ever heard of this and i was like actually those guys you know we've got a presidio bitcoin

603
00:34:29,957 --> 00:34:36,557
you should come by uh so i was just going to ask if you guys have heard any update on what's

604
00:34:36,557 --> 00:34:43,757
happening with horizon then i i pointed out is it sovana is that the way you say the other one steve

605
00:34:43,757 --> 00:34:51,457
yeah so vanna so do you guys that that seems like an idea that just has organic promising

606
00:34:51,457 --> 00:34:56,277
traction and kind of bridges some of the trad five primitives that people are comfortable with with

607
00:34:56,277 --> 00:35:00,817
kind of a use case for getting more involved in bitcoin as people are learning about it have you

608
00:35:00,817 --> 00:35:06,457
guys heard anything about either of those companies and kind of market market progress on them

609
00:35:06,457 --> 00:35:12,897
anything that you can share no i haven't heard anything in the past week or so

610
00:35:12,897 --> 00:35:20,877
yeah i mean i nothing new to share i i still need to do a deeper dive into both i mean the one thing

611
00:35:20,877 --> 00:35:24,837
that maybe as an overarching principle is very clear to me and we've discussed on the show before

612
00:35:24,837 --> 00:35:29,677
is that you know where bitcoin is in its own sort of adoption cycle it's clearly in in this sort of

613
00:35:29,677 --> 00:35:36,257
like securitization slash um recapitalize old financial systems phase and so increasingly

614
00:35:36,257 --> 00:35:42,797
that's why i see sort of like that i mean i think it's undeniable like the crazy market demand

615
00:35:42,797 --> 00:35:46,317
is to find ways to recapitalize a system

616
00:35:46,317 --> 00:35:47,637
that otherwise is failing

617
00:35:47,637 --> 00:35:50,497
under the weight of its own sort of fiat excess.

618
00:35:51,497 --> 00:35:54,477
And I know we've talked a lot

619
00:35:54,477 --> 00:35:56,417
about a lot of the treasury stuff on here

620
00:35:56,417 --> 00:35:58,617
and my own views on MicroStrategy

621
00:35:58,617 --> 00:36:00,297
versus the rest of the companies.

622
00:36:00,697 --> 00:36:02,237
But I think this is just another example

623
00:36:02,237 --> 00:36:07,037
where it's clear that there is demand,

624
00:36:07,277 --> 00:36:09,317
there's realization that Bitcoin is pristine capital

625
00:36:09,317 --> 00:36:11,077
and pristine collateral.

626
00:36:11,077 --> 00:36:13,517
and there is demand in the largest markets,

627
00:36:13,957 --> 00:36:15,357
traditional capital markets in the world

628
00:36:15,357 --> 00:36:18,857
that we can introduce flavor of Bitcoin

629
00:36:18,857 --> 00:36:21,557
to in many ways, I would say,

630
00:36:21,657 --> 00:36:23,737
offer upside to the early investors there,

631
00:36:23,797 --> 00:36:26,897
but also to perhaps save a system

632
00:36:26,897 --> 00:36:28,177
that doesn't have to go down in flames,

633
00:36:28,237 --> 00:36:30,077
but can kind of transition much more peacefully

634
00:36:30,077 --> 00:36:30,657
to the next thing.

635
00:36:31,097 --> 00:36:34,337
And the real estate market obviously is massive as well.

636
00:36:34,817 --> 00:36:37,237
And there's clear demand to use Bitcoin

637
00:36:37,237 --> 00:36:41,037
to slowly insert itself and recapitalize that market too.

638
00:36:41,077 --> 00:36:48,417
cool um okay well i guess i i indicated we might move beyond building but i think our next topic

639
00:36:48,417 --> 00:36:54,017
is actually also about building as many of the things that interest us are about um have you

640
00:36:54,017 --> 00:37:00,777
guys you guys have heard of this skibbity project skibbity cash i had to do all that this morning

641
00:37:00,777 --> 00:37:06,577
man like i've never even heard the word skibbity i feel what what come on we're like steve and i

642
00:37:06,577 --> 00:37:12,157
way older than you and we uh we've we've already been discussing this and i think there's a whole

643
00:37:12,157 --> 00:37:18,697
list of gen z words that we've recently educated ourselves about um but does anybody want to take

644
00:37:18,697 --> 00:37:22,637
the the lead on what is skivety cash kind of what's the whole process around this

645
00:37:22,637 --> 00:37:30,497
um i understand it at a high level i think pavlinex um proposed this it's basically a

646
00:37:30,497 --> 00:37:35,957
hackathon they put heap just pulled i think his own money together and then matt belez helped join

647
00:37:35,957 --> 00:37:43,117
as well they put some money together and said hey anyone who builds a skibity app um

648
00:37:43,117 --> 00:37:51,797
has a chance to win and they gave out i think like 8k in uh 8 000 us dollars in prices to the top

649
00:37:51,797 --> 00:37:58,057
three and yeah i'm not a skibity expert expert but like the young generation is just basically

650
00:37:58,057 --> 00:37:59,477
weird-ass shit

651
00:37:59,477 --> 00:38:01,597
is attractive.

652
00:38:04,537 --> 00:38:06,257
I looked at the top

653
00:38:06,257 --> 00:38:07,457
three winners and

654
00:38:07,457 --> 00:38:10,157
the first place and third place, I noticed they

655
00:38:10,157 --> 00:38:12,257
both had toilets as part of their UI.

656
00:38:12,617 --> 00:38:14,297
Yeah, me too. What is going on?

657
00:38:14,297 --> 00:38:15,857
When I say

658
00:38:15,857 --> 00:38:17,877
they like weird-ass shit, almost

659
00:38:17,877 --> 00:38:18,477
literally.

660
00:38:21,717 --> 00:38:24,077
I think it's just a new style

661
00:38:24,077 --> 00:38:24,917
or genre or whatever.

662
00:38:26,417 --> 00:38:27,977
It kind of makes me think back

663
00:38:28,057 --> 00:38:36,237
to four years ago uh or actually makes me think about like uh dogecoin and these coins that

664
00:38:36,237 --> 00:38:43,117
play off of memes like dogs and shibu and stuff like that um and then four years ago when

665
00:38:43,117 --> 00:38:51,197
interviewing elon musk like he's like a reason he likes dogecoin over bitcoin is the most entertaining

666
00:38:51,197 --> 00:38:57,637
outcome will be the actual outcome is what he said in the interview um and i pointed out that

667
00:38:58,057 --> 00:39:09,077
Like, why can't Bitcoin wallets or Bitcoin applications have skins or themes that are like cultural or fun or weird or whatever, right?

668
00:39:09,077 --> 00:39:23,217
And so I kind of like this contest to just like slap on super weird or culturally relevant user experiences for a very different demographic.

669
00:39:23,717 --> 00:39:29,237
But the underlying thing is a wallet or an application lets you send and receive Bitcoin.

670
00:39:29,757 --> 00:39:33,857
So I think I thought it was a really unique, cool hackathon idea.

671
00:39:33,857 --> 00:39:41,337
yeah i okay so not to be the the total old head in the group now uh i learned that word recently

672
00:39:41,337 --> 00:39:47,597
as well but what like if you had to give just the tldr what does skibbity mean and like i noticed

673
00:39:47,597 --> 00:39:51,857
there's like dk perhaps you have some context because you know the toilet thing or you mentioned

674
00:39:51,857 --> 00:39:57,917
that as well like i saw a head in a toilet in 2023 like imagine most of our audience probably

675
00:39:57,917 --> 00:40:03,337
has never heard of this what's going to claim to be gen z but i think skibbity means like trash

676
00:40:03,337 --> 00:40:05,337
or like crap or something.

677
00:40:05,477 --> 00:40:06,597
It just means like junk.

678
00:40:07,717 --> 00:40:09,077
Like, is it a positive or negative?

679
00:40:09,137 --> 00:40:12,017
Because I saw, I quickly sort of Googled around this

680
00:40:12,017 --> 00:40:13,477
and I was like, well, you can use it either way, but.

681
00:40:14,937 --> 00:40:16,297
It's kind of like, that's bad.

682
00:40:16,697 --> 00:40:17,217
That's bad.

683
00:40:17,897 --> 00:40:18,697
Like that's skibbity.

684
00:40:19,137 --> 00:40:21,217
Like as an example, would you say something like,

685
00:40:21,297 --> 00:40:23,357
oh man, like, okay, you know,

686
00:40:23,357 --> 00:40:26,417
the fact that my whole collapse in New Mexico happened

687
00:40:26,417 --> 00:40:27,617
when I'd be like, yeah, it was so skibbity.

688
00:40:28,577 --> 00:40:29,957
I, maybe, I don't know.

689
00:40:30,037 --> 00:40:33,077
You shouldn't update your TikTok knowledge.

690
00:40:33,337 --> 00:40:35,397
If you want to get more culturally attuned.

691
00:40:35,417 --> 00:40:36,977
I have zero plans to come back.

692
00:40:36,977 --> 00:40:46,057
My understanding is that Matt actually did a bit of cultural research with the age demographic.

693
00:40:46,057 --> 00:40:52,417
And I think Skibbity is like, it's very much like, you know, the meme of like, hello, fellow kids.

694
00:40:54,117 --> 00:40:59,177
It's a little bit, I think, past its prime as a term.

695
00:40:59,177 --> 00:41:07,397
but didn't he say he learned i mean it's isn't part of it it everyone's self-aware of how ridiculous

696
00:41:07,397 --> 00:41:12,717
it is yeah and that's what makes it funny to them yeah but then it quickly becomes tiresome

697
00:41:12,717 --> 00:41:18,397
whatever the current one is but then the the kids who are two years younger then think it's cool

698
00:41:18,397 --> 00:41:23,277
and then and then a little bit later the kids two years younger than that think it's cool

699
00:41:23,277 --> 00:41:30,117
but the older kids have already moved on to the next yeah so like if if say like the 18 year olds

700
00:41:30,117 --> 00:41:36,277
or the 16 year olds kind of invent a new thing then that's funny for a little while this is from

701
00:41:36,277 --> 00:41:44,377
matt's kind of ethnographic research then you know like then like the 15 the 14 and 15 year olds hear

702
00:41:44,377 --> 00:41:49,257
about it and they think they're like in the cool kid game like the kid's a couple years older than

703
00:41:49,257 --> 00:41:55,817
them and then by the time it gets to the 12 year olds the 16 or 18 year olds are like this like this

704
00:41:55,817 --> 00:42:00,117
is no longer interesting right we got to come up with which is a pattern that's existed throughout

705
00:42:00,117 --> 00:42:06,817
time but i think it's just like way faster cycles now yeah like probably in a matter of weeks or

706
00:42:06,817 --> 00:42:12,377
days they go through new ones you know because combine that historical pattern that's happened

707
00:42:12,377 --> 00:42:21,917
of teenagers with internet speed, with memes, and they've just accelerated all of that.

708
00:42:22,717 --> 00:42:26,337
So this brings up so many questions and topics, right?

709
00:42:26,437 --> 00:42:29,857
We could literally spend a whole show just now on Skibbity and Gen Z.

710
00:42:29,857 --> 00:42:34,157
But one thing, I mean, so this is kind of what I was referencing earlier when we were

711
00:42:34,157 --> 00:42:37,397
talking about the investing point, you know, of like what's scarce in this world.

712
00:42:37,477 --> 00:42:38,857
And one of the things is human attention.

713
00:42:38,857 --> 00:42:44,197
but like it's really hard to think about you know the staying power of an application because to your

714
00:42:44,197 --> 00:42:49,337
point Steve like it's accelerating faster and faster and so like what was the cool thing you

715
00:42:49,337 --> 00:42:53,217
know yesterday tomorrow may be totally gone so that's that's a very challenging environment to

716
00:42:53,217 --> 00:43:00,877
quote-unquote invest in and it also makes me just wonder I mean I like I really feel like the old

717
00:43:00,877 --> 00:43:05,917
guy now but like is this the singularity we're all as we're like what is the singularity actually

718
00:43:05,917 --> 00:43:11,057
look like it just looks like it's just going to be skibbity on steroids and people swiping faster

719
00:43:11,057 --> 00:43:17,117
and faster and like you know it just i mean it feels like post-modern on on steroids like like

720
00:43:17,117 --> 00:43:21,357
i don't know and then i also think to myself does it have to be this way right like it's very

721
00:43:21,357 --> 00:43:25,837
interesting to me and by the way i think it's a badass idea and i like i really like hats off to

722
00:43:25,837 --> 00:43:29,737
people for reaching out and like it's some of the nicer designs i've seen in the whole bitcoin space

723
00:43:29,737 --> 00:43:35,777
so that's sick but i think about it i'm like um imagine a world like you know like my understanding

724
00:43:35,777 --> 00:43:40,617
is in China that they don't let the kids use TikTok, which, you know, you could have some

725
00:43:40,617 --> 00:43:44,277
interesting like thoughts around, hmm, I wonder why they encourage American kids to do it,

726
00:43:44,277 --> 00:43:48,017
but not their own. And I think to myself, like, is it just that the internet and this is just the

727
00:43:48,017 --> 00:43:52,397
normal sort of acceleration of technology and pace? Or is it like, no, like we went down at

728
00:43:52,397 --> 00:43:58,357
least so far a particular technological cul-de-sac where people, you know, thanks to advertising

729
00:43:58,357 --> 00:44:04,337
based business models have just become so like attention hungry and ADHD and swiping and like,

730
00:44:04,337 --> 00:44:09,957
you know it doesn't have to be this way like you know potentially in a new technological world with

731
00:44:09,957 --> 00:44:13,837
things like nostril bitcoin lightning perhaps there is a lot more still patience and there's

732
00:44:13,837 --> 00:44:17,697
still things that spread quickly online because it's the internet um what do you guys think do

733
00:44:17,697 --> 00:44:24,117
i just sound old right now or like i don't know i think everything i mean our whole lives we have

734
00:44:24,117 --> 00:44:30,337
just been on this techno acceleration path yeah it's not like it just started it's like of course

735
00:44:30,337 --> 00:44:36,477
it's been going but because it's accelerating every new phase seems like wow it just got a lot

736
00:44:36,477 --> 00:44:42,597
faster than i could have ever imagined and so i suspect you know you fast forward two years five

737
00:44:42,597 --> 00:44:49,197
years we're just it's just like ludicrous mode plaid you know you're just like everything is just

738
00:44:49,197 --> 00:44:55,857
like plaid is that a gen z word but you don't know plaids it's baseballs that's a spits balls

739
00:44:55,857 --> 00:45:03,217
reference i'm i'm i'm both too i thought you're a big tesla guy aren't you a tesla fan i love tesla

740
00:45:03,217 --> 00:45:08,797
so you don't know what plat is oh so plat oh interesting i didn't never understood the

741
00:45:08,797 --> 00:45:13,997
reference because that's like tesla came out with ludicrous speed and then they came out with the

742
00:45:13,997 --> 00:45:20,137
plat model both of them are space balls references because they go to the speed of light to catch

743
00:45:20,137 --> 00:45:24,697
another spaceship and then they want to go but they're they were behind so they had to speed up

744
00:45:24,697 --> 00:45:26,397
So they had to go faster than the speed of light.

745
00:45:26,497 --> 00:45:27,917
So they went to ludicrous speed.

746
00:45:28,737 --> 00:45:29,277
Got it.

747
00:45:29,337 --> 00:45:31,677
And then they unintentionally, I think, went to plaid.

748
00:45:33,357 --> 00:45:33,997
Got it.

749
00:45:34,177 --> 00:45:35,697
And at the point where they were plaid.

750
00:45:36,737 --> 00:45:42,217
The emblem on the Tesla is plaid, which is exactly from the movie.

751
00:45:42,777 --> 00:45:45,597
But to me, I'm glad we're doing this because I've always wondered.

752
00:45:45,597 --> 00:45:49,997
I thought that was like some like reference to like a net or a web, like Indra's web or something.

753
00:45:50,157 --> 00:45:51,697
Have you ever seen Spaceballs?

754
00:45:52,157 --> 00:45:52,417
No.

755
00:45:52,917 --> 00:45:53,117
Okay.

756
00:45:53,177 --> 00:45:54,037
You have to see Spaceballs.

757
00:45:54,037 --> 00:46:00,417
imagine they're like in some you know the spoof version of the millennium falcon and they just

758
00:46:00,417 --> 00:46:06,477
like went through hyperspace or whatever and they overtook whatever their goal was and now they're

759
00:46:06,477 --> 00:46:11,417
just like leaning back and it's just like plaid all around almost like they're in like a psychedelic

760
00:46:11,417 --> 00:46:22,094
trip quick correction it would it would be the star destroyer because it was darth vader oh okay yes okay it wasn the millennium falcon they were catching the millennium falcon which is an rv with

761
00:46:22,094 --> 00:46:27,614
wings wait so what is that web like thing you see on the back of those teslas that are plaid

762
00:46:27,614 --> 00:46:32,754
that's meant to be like literally watch the movie max and they literally show that visual

763
00:46:32,754 --> 00:46:39,774
in the movie so i mean like is that i mean yeah i guess like is this sort of implication of all

764
00:46:39,774 --> 00:46:43,394
that that like we're realizing like our world is made of connections and information and like that

765
00:46:43,394 --> 00:46:49,514
is the matrix a visualization of what it looks like i don't know the genesis of why they use that

766
00:46:49,514 --> 00:46:54,314
in the movie but maybe but what a comment i made yesterday they just came out with a new version of

767
00:46:54,314 --> 00:47:00,394
grok uh and they renamed it from grok to super grok so i'm wondering when we get ludicrous grok

768
00:47:00,394 --> 00:47:07,294
and plaid grok although when mecca hitler came out yesterday that might have elevated to ludicrous

769
00:47:07,294 --> 00:47:12,614
i missed i was traveling today i heard the word mecha hitler but what is what is this reference

770
00:47:12,614 --> 00:47:21,574
oh you weren't aware i was traveling i was not really you know on online much so um with this

771
00:47:21,574 --> 00:47:29,574
most powerful version new version of grok uh someone broke it to like it it like

772
00:47:29,574 --> 00:47:36,414
was telling grok was telling everyone it was mega hitler and that elon programmed it that way from

773
00:47:36,414 --> 00:47:45,534
the get-go was it like uh like and it was it was a joke or like it's not that it was a joke about i

774
00:47:45,534 --> 00:47:54,114
mean the ceo left the company this morning because of that i don't know i i don't i wasn't part of

775
00:47:54,114 --> 00:48:02,414
the the uh exit so i don't know right and elon musk cannot stay away from controversy that is wild

776
00:48:02,414 --> 00:48:13,074
I mean, someone posted the diff online of what, like, they made a commit 16 hours ago to fix it.

777
00:48:13,954 --> 00:48:25,154
And I forget the exact details of that change, but they basically had to slap a filter on Grok.

778
00:48:25,754 --> 00:48:26,234
Jeez.

779
00:48:26,934 --> 00:48:28,634
The world is just getting so great.

780
00:48:28,634 --> 00:48:31,474
And honestly, the more I think about it, like, I'm sure that's by design.

781
00:48:31,474 --> 00:48:35,974
Like Elon's very, obviously, one of the smartest guys of our generation.

782
00:48:36,274 --> 00:48:39,294
Like probably like, this is what I'm saying.

783
00:48:39,354 --> 00:48:41,034
The attention cycle is getting so short.

784
00:48:41,234 --> 00:48:44,674
Those who understand how to really like keep getting in there over and over again.

785
00:48:46,374 --> 00:48:48,374
Trump does this, Elon does this.

786
00:48:48,474 --> 00:48:50,554
Like they're going to do well in the internet age.

787
00:48:50,814 --> 00:48:51,834
But it's, I don't know, man.

788
00:48:51,934 --> 00:48:53,054
I guess I just feel old.

789
00:48:53,174 --> 00:48:54,854
But I'm like, this is, it's scary.

790
00:48:54,974 --> 00:48:57,094
And again, I mean, what do you guys think of my earlier question?

791
00:48:57,154 --> 00:48:58,094
Does it have to be this way?

792
00:48:58,094 --> 00:49:04,734
Like if we have a much more, you know, kind of like quiet sound decentralized tech, like does attention span still go to zero?

793
00:49:06,294 --> 00:49:13,574
I mean, I, I, I think everything in the world is, excuse the reference, but it's a tick and a talk.

794
00:49:14,014 --> 00:49:22,234
And so I think we're ticking really hard to the side of like hyper everything, hyper connected, shit posting everything.

795
00:49:22,454 --> 00:49:23,414
Nothing matters.

796
00:49:23,494 --> 00:49:24,634
It's all nihilism.

797
00:49:24,634 --> 00:49:36,554
And I think the talk, which is only just at the frontier right now, it's not really a widespread mainstream thing, is to, like, the new luxuries are like health and sleep.

798
00:49:37,094 --> 00:49:42,294
And your time and being disconnected is, in a sense, a new form of luxury.

799
00:49:42,434 --> 00:49:45,054
It used to be a luxury to be able to be online a lot.

800
00:49:45,214 --> 00:49:52,414
Now it's a luxury to be able to be offline and to have relationships with real people instead of bots or whatever you're doing.

801
00:49:52,414 --> 00:49:58,674
yeah um interesting so i yeah that's that's my take on it anyway i think it's so do you think

802
00:49:58,674 --> 00:50:04,014
that means as we go from the tick to the talk that like i don't know like and how long does

803
00:50:04,014 --> 00:50:06,994
this take to play as like in a whole nother generation after generation alpha whatever

804
00:50:06,994 --> 00:50:10,694
they are that like people are actually like no we just like we use the internet but it's only

805
00:50:10,694 --> 00:50:15,034
like we have our like you know our assistant that we talk to and it filters all the crap for me

806
00:50:15,034 --> 00:50:20,354
and like most of the time i'm like sitting in my you know whatever my garden or like talking with

807
00:50:20,354 --> 00:50:25,354
my like friends at school and like internet helps me but it's not it's not jacking my attention

808
00:50:25,354 --> 00:50:32,194
well yeah i mean i think the more that we have ai bots everywhere creating all of this content

809
00:50:32,194 --> 00:50:36,294
and you don't know what it is or who to trust i think you naturally are going to be like okay

810
00:50:36,294 --> 00:50:41,594
i'm going to have my own bot to help defend me and part of the defense is just organize and fish

811
00:50:41,594 --> 00:50:45,334
out the stuff that i should care about and the rest of it i'll just leave be because it doesn't

812
00:50:45,334 --> 00:50:51,414
serve me right but that that feels like it's kind of playing out now but it may take may take years

813
00:50:51,414 --> 00:50:55,794
i don't know depends on sort of the so to me i mean like you asked for requests for product

814
00:50:55,794 --> 00:51:01,894
experiences or things like i want that i want the best self-sovereign ai assistant that can filter

815
00:51:01,894 --> 00:51:08,574
out all the noise be my like real co-pilot um and and like i don't want to have to use the computer

816
00:51:08,574 --> 00:51:14,334
anymore yeah ideally and i think like you want a voice interface probably right i want a voice

817
00:51:14,334 --> 00:51:21,134
interface, but critically, and I think this is so, so, so, so, so important, you need to be able for

818
00:51:21,134 --> 00:51:25,454
that to work. And we've talked about this many times, but you need to know as much as humanly

819
00:51:25,454 --> 00:51:31,894
possible about the creation of that model or the agent, where it's hosted, who has access to it,

820
00:51:31,894 --> 00:51:38,254
because there's a 0% chance it's going to go well if a company is the one hosting that for you.

821
00:51:38,934 --> 00:51:43,914
I mean, it's going to be like what happened with Facebook and the ads 1.0 or 2.0 on steroids.

822
00:51:44,334 --> 00:51:56,054
And so I think about, you know, if you could build one of the most important things for humanity today, who can do that in a way where you can audit yourself or have people that you trust audit to know what's in the model, who's hosting it.

823
00:51:56,054 --> 00:52:02,994
I think some of the stuff that, you know, people like OpenSecret or the companies like OpenSecret are doing some of the encrypted stuff, that's a great first step.

824
00:52:03,654 --> 00:52:08,014
But who's going to create the sort of Apple of AI experience?

825
00:52:08,114 --> 00:52:09,054
Maybe it will be Apple one day.

826
00:52:09,054 --> 00:52:17,094
um who's gonna create the apple of ai uh assistance that to me seems like a very like

827
00:52:17,094 --> 00:52:22,554
maybe the most important uh product yeah i i do think there's you know there's this concept that

828
00:52:22,554 --> 00:52:27,614
people say you know generals fighting the last war yeah and i think there's a lot of generals

829
00:52:27,614 --> 00:52:33,414
out there trying to fight the social media war and the next war is going to be you know which

830
00:52:33,414 --> 00:52:39,054
AIs can we trust and are they open source and in service of us or in service of some corporation

831
00:52:39,054 --> 00:52:44,974
and we don't really know what that looks like yet but I would almost say instead of spending a lot

832
00:52:44,974 --> 00:52:50,174
of time fighting that last war yeah let's think about how to fight this new war which is this

833
00:52:50,174 --> 00:52:56,074
battle for just even how our thinking works not not the manipulated media thinking but like the

834
00:52:56,074 --> 00:53:02,314
the new form of you know artificial intelligence can we have open source and control and sovereignty

835
00:53:02,314 --> 00:53:20,374
Because I think ultimately, like you really go forward on this. I don't think we want humans making most of the decisions humans make today. We want to have like an agreed upon set of, of like rubrics for how decisions get made and how models get trained and what we're willing to ask them and what we're willing to accept as answers.

836
00:53:20,374 --> 00:53:35,514
I think that'll be a better version of the world when we get there. But I think we need to like really be thinking and experimenting with what that looks like when we have when we put our trust in systems that are going to help us make decisions.

837
00:53:36,054 --> 00:53:37,134
And in order to put that trust,

838
00:53:37,234 --> 00:53:39,834
I think the absolute number one most important thing,

839
00:53:39,934 --> 00:53:41,914
which is why we're all into Bitcoin,

840
00:53:42,014 --> 00:53:43,054
like Nostra's transparency.

841
00:53:43,434 --> 00:53:44,914
Maybe the humans aren't making the decisions,

842
00:53:45,034 --> 00:53:46,154
but it's critical to humans,

843
00:53:46,334 --> 00:53:47,754
the ability to audit them.

844
00:53:47,834 --> 00:53:49,574
Otherwise, things are gonna go very dark.

845
00:53:49,714 --> 00:53:51,494
And I think about this, again,

846
00:53:51,654 --> 00:53:53,114
we've talked many times in the show,

847
00:53:53,234 --> 00:53:55,074
what is gonna be the killer app in Nostra

848
00:53:55,074 --> 00:53:56,474
that really makes it pop off?

849
00:53:57,374 --> 00:54:00,534
And if I were going AI today,

850
00:54:00,914 --> 00:54:02,154
really trying to build a company around this,

851
00:54:02,214 --> 00:54:03,194
I'd be thinking a lot around,

852
00:54:03,374 --> 00:54:04,894
can you build that kind of an experience

853
00:54:04,894 --> 00:54:06,614
for, like you said, the next battle, right?

854
00:54:06,634 --> 00:54:08,114
Like whenever something gets like super hot,

855
00:54:08,194 --> 00:54:09,514
you've probably already lost the opportunity

856
00:54:09,514 --> 00:54:10,594
or the really big opportunity.

857
00:54:11,074 --> 00:54:12,874
And so that next battle, you know,

858
00:54:12,894 --> 00:54:14,494
it's like if you can build

859
00:54:14,494 --> 00:54:18,894
this sort of like auditable, self-sovereign AI agent,

860
00:54:19,354 --> 00:54:21,094
you're probably going to build that

861
00:54:21,094 --> 00:54:23,134
in and on top of an environment

862
00:54:23,134 --> 00:54:24,954
that makes it easy to audit,

863
00:54:25,374 --> 00:54:27,534
easy to do things like rank

864
00:54:27,534 --> 00:54:29,394
the authenticity of information.

865
00:54:29,614 --> 00:54:30,634
So some stuff we talked about

866
00:54:30,634 --> 00:54:32,854
are like some of the articles I put out a while ago

867
00:54:32,854 --> 00:54:34,534
around TrustRank and how to disrupt Google.

868
00:54:34,894 --> 00:54:37,394
that's one of the reasons I'm really bullish on, you know,

869
00:54:37,394 --> 00:54:39,194
still this web of trust stuff with Nostra.

870
00:54:39,374 --> 00:54:41,454
And I've seen a couple other companies integrating.

871
00:54:42,094 --> 00:54:46,274
I forget the name of it now, but like the project that allows you to,

872
00:54:46,274 --> 00:54:49,394
you know, call as like a service, various trust ranks,

873
00:54:49,434 --> 00:54:50,634
and then, you know, apply your own.

874
00:54:52,094 --> 00:54:55,454
I think building that self-sovereign AI assistant

875
00:54:55,454 --> 00:54:58,634
for a sort of Nostra Bitcoin world makes a lot of sense.

876
00:54:58,874 --> 00:55:00,074
And a lot of people are dope yet.

877
00:55:00,494 --> 00:55:01,694
I have a question for you guys.

878
00:55:01,694 --> 00:55:05,574
in such a world with this audit system

879
00:55:05,574 --> 00:55:10,094
or I could also frame it as like

880
00:55:10,094 --> 00:55:12,894
going to a court

881
00:55:12,894 --> 00:55:17,314
it feels to me like poor

882
00:55:17,314 --> 00:55:21,994
countries, poor societies, poor people within

883
00:55:21,994 --> 00:55:25,854
a rich society don't fare well

884
00:55:25,854 --> 00:55:29,614
because there is a cost to going to court, there's a cost

885
00:55:29,614 --> 00:55:33,054
to doing an audit and who's going to bear that cost.

886
00:55:33,694 --> 00:55:36,894
So I guess that's just a general issue with society today too.

887
00:55:36,974 --> 00:55:39,394
And you pay taxes and then you can get public defenders

888
00:55:39,394 --> 00:55:40,094
and stuff like that.

889
00:55:40,154 --> 00:55:44,254
But it seems like we don't break free from that.

890
00:55:44,594 --> 00:55:49,034
Because if AI decides you're bad,

891
00:55:49,594 --> 00:55:50,774
you did something wrong.

892
00:55:50,954 --> 00:55:52,154
So you need to be penalized.

893
00:55:55,454 --> 00:55:57,814
And it may or may not do it.

894
00:55:59,614 --> 00:56:07,194
And its explanation of why may be excellent or okay or needs a lot of study.

895
00:56:08,054 --> 00:56:19,454
So then if humans get involved to look at that, if it takes time, it costs money for humans to do that, who's going to bear that cost?

896
00:56:19,454 --> 00:56:36,854
And if we're talking about a private company, like if a customer of that company, a user of that company falls into the naughty bucket, that's actually different than a court system or some kind of civil or public or criminal activity.

897
00:56:36,854 --> 00:56:39,614
It's just simply that private company gets to decide.

898
00:56:39,614 --> 00:56:46,634
so in that case in particular i feel like it would be very common to just be like

899
00:56:46,634 --> 00:56:53,094
it's cheapest to just be like especially if this customer isn't delivering us business value just

900
00:56:53,094 --> 00:57:03,894
cut them out ban them and if the ai model is poorly tuned then uh a lot of like innocent

901
00:57:03,894 --> 00:57:05,734
people can get screwed over that way.

902
00:57:08,294 --> 00:57:16,414
I think these are great points to be raising, and I wouldn't pretend to have the full answer

903
00:57:16,414 --> 00:57:17,034
to all of them.

904
00:57:17,034 --> 00:57:24,674
I would say that I think the current system is very harsh on people who lack resources,

905
00:57:25,014 --> 00:57:30,974
and I think that has gotten worse over time versus better.

906
00:57:31,074 --> 00:57:32,094
It doesn't seem to be correcting.

907
00:57:32,094 --> 00:57:39,954
it seems to be like getting worse and more harsh and so um you know i think one one area i would

908
00:57:39,954 --> 00:57:48,414
be optimistic about is by making the ability to kind of explain or defend or prepare yourself

909
00:57:48,414 --> 00:57:56,174
for that to make that process much cheaper is like one way to empower people who have fewer

910
00:57:56,174 --> 00:58:02,234
resources to be able to sort of get, say, like a fair trial or whatever. But I think you're also

911
00:58:02,234 --> 00:58:06,634
kind of, I don't know if you're maybe not being explicit about it, but I think you're kind of

912
00:58:06,634 --> 00:58:12,174
making the case for like open data, open protocols for this. Because if you do have a corporation,

913
00:58:12,374 --> 00:58:18,034
like you look at, you look at like when Facebook was growing really fast, they would sort of make

914
00:58:18,034 --> 00:58:23,054
arbitrary decisions that weren't meant to be hurting or helping anybody in particular,

915
00:58:23,054 --> 00:58:26,094
but they just end up having these big impacts.

916
00:58:26,214 --> 00:58:26,834
They sort of, you know,

917
00:58:26,834 --> 00:58:29,074
it's like a giant kind of lumbering around

918
00:58:29,074 --> 00:58:30,614
and you accidentally step on things.

919
00:58:30,914 --> 00:58:32,474
And you don't do it out of like malice.

920
00:58:32,514 --> 00:58:33,794
You're just like, don't really care,

921
00:58:33,874 --> 00:58:34,634
don't really notice.

922
00:58:35,154 --> 00:58:36,554
And I think the more that you have

923
00:58:36,554 --> 00:58:39,274
a centralized corporation doing that,

924
00:58:39,314 --> 00:58:41,194
the more that you're kind of putting that,

925
00:58:41,574 --> 00:58:43,914
you know, like a whole legal justice system at risk.

926
00:58:43,954 --> 00:58:46,914
So I think you do need open protocols

927
00:58:46,914 --> 00:58:49,094
and, you know, open data

928
00:58:49,094 --> 00:58:50,214
and a lot more transparency

929
00:58:50,214 --> 00:58:51,674
kind of across all of society.

930
00:58:51,954 --> 00:58:52,874
And I think Bitcoin's just like,

931
00:58:53,054 --> 00:58:59,834
a great foundation layer for that but you know something like like a nostor you know is a is a

932
00:58:59,834 --> 00:59:05,974
great example of how you can do more transparent open data um but but i don't pretend to have like

933
00:59:05,974 --> 00:59:12,494
like the answer for that i mean when you have ai ai is so expensive to train and to host and serve

934
00:59:12,494 --> 00:59:18,274
and requires specialized hardware that's expensive so i don't like i think effectively the way to win

935
00:59:18,274 --> 00:59:20,154
And this is like, everything needs to be a lot cheaper.

936
00:59:20,814 --> 00:59:22,594
And I think it will get there, but.

937
00:59:23,354 --> 00:59:24,814
Yeah, so two thoughts on that.

938
00:59:25,874 --> 00:59:28,054
One, in terms of the auditability,

939
00:59:28,174 --> 00:59:29,934
I mean, like, I don't know about the sort of

940
00:59:29,934 --> 00:59:31,614
the fair trial thing, that's an interesting question.

941
00:59:31,714 --> 00:59:34,174
But like, even if it's just the open protocols,

942
00:59:34,474 --> 00:59:37,214
which sort of host all of the AIs in the future,

943
00:59:37,614 --> 00:59:39,854
like in the same sense that most people that are like,

944
00:59:40,174 --> 00:59:41,914
even us, like that use Bitcoin,

945
00:59:42,594 --> 00:59:44,074
have never, I mean, Steve,

946
00:59:44,074 --> 00:59:46,654
maybe you have the like audited Bitcoin core code.

947
00:59:46,654 --> 00:59:49,334
but it's still a much better system

948
00:59:49,334 --> 00:59:50,554
because we do have the wizards.

949
00:59:50,934 --> 00:59:52,434
I mean, the reality of the world is

950
00:59:52,434 --> 00:59:53,814
as long as it's open sourced,

951
00:59:54,174 --> 00:59:57,034
even if you only have the 20 whatever

952
00:59:57,034 --> 00:59:59,154
Greg Maxwells and super geniuses

953
00:59:59,154 --> 01:00:00,654
that for whatever reason are just like

954
01:00:00,654 --> 01:00:03,294
altruistic motivated that are actually out there auditing it,

955
01:00:03,334 --> 01:00:04,954
that's still such a better world

956
01:00:04,954 --> 01:00:06,894
because they can raise the alarm.

957
01:00:07,474 --> 01:00:08,714
I think it's different though.

958
01:00:08,854 --> 01:00:11,054
I mean, I agree in that case, it's great.

959
01:00:11,874 --> 01:00:14,654
Like a piece of software that millions might run,

960
01:00:14,654 --> 01:00:22,634
you know having even just one trusted independent expert review it delivers value to all millions of

961
01:00:22,634 --> 01:00:28,794
those people um but here yes you could have one trusted or a group of trusted experts look at

962
01:00:28,794 --> 01:00:34,714
a model the weight stuff like that but they're not going to be able to look at that and be like

963
01:00:34,714 --> 01:00:40,834
and it's not going to be relate to one particular outcome later whereas with like

964
01:00:40,834 --> 01:00:46,514
bitcoin wallet software it's it's a predictable outcome i guess yeah i mean maybe the difference is

965
01:00:47,074 --> 01:00:54,734
llms are are not predictable so okay so they're not they're not they're not they're not

966
01:00:54,734 --> 01:01:02,034
they're not deterministic whereas bitcoin wallets are deterministic but compared to like which

967
01:01:02,034 --> 01:01:07,254
neurons are firing inside trump's head at any given moment like that's that's the current state

968
01:01:07,254 --> 01:01:08,374
that we are dealing with.

969
01:01:08,474 --> 01:01:10,614
So, you know, not as a political statement,

970
01:01:10,654 --> 01:01:11,674
just like a human statement.

971
01:01:12,114 --> 01:01:16,874
It's like, it's kind of random and probabilistic.

972
01:01:17,554 --> 01:01:19,634
And so I'm not suggesting,

973
01:01:19,974 --> 01:01:22,554
I'm not suggesting we have the full answer to this.

974
01:01:22,614 --> 01:01:24,114
I'm saying because it's probabilistic,

975
01:01:24,514 --> 01:01:26,874
current thing that we've chosen to accept,

976
01:01:27,394 --> 01:01:29,354
we could move to a new system that's probabilistic

977
01:01:29,354 --> 01:01:30,314
and has its own problems,

978
01:01:30,314 --> 01:01:32,374
but is much more controllable.

979
01:01:33,934 --> 01:01:35,474
I think, so, I mean,

980
01:01:35,474 --> 01:01:40,774
there's a lot of interesting things that come out of this. Number one, I agree. And obviously,

981
01:01:40,974 --> 01:01:46,614
it's much better. It feels much better to be able to say, okay, we've audited this deterministic

982
01:01:46,614 --> 01:01:51,794
code. Although even in that, there still could be bugs that slip past reviewer's eye for many

983
01:01:51,794 --> 01:01:58,614
years and you don't see where that goes. But I think there's two possibilities here. One is,

984
01:01:58,694 --> 01:02:02,714
yeah, we just have to accept the complexity. It's never going to be perfect. But having things be

985
01:02:02,714 --> 01:02:06,874
audited is still, you know, you can get better and better over time and more engineers looking

986
01:02:06,874 --> 01:02:12,234
at it will be able to figure out more relationships and still raise more fire alarms than not.

987
01:02:12,374 --> 01:02:14,594
So I think that it's still a big move in the right direction.

988
01:02:15,074 --> 01:02:17,734
And, you know, to keep bringing up my St. F.

989
01:02:17,734 --> 01:02:22,134
Institute trip, the postdoc that I was chatting the most with, he actually has very interesting

990
01:02:22,134 --> 01:02:23,874
papers exactly on this question.

991
01:02:24,174 --> 01:02:29,334
And he talks about, not to get too nerdy, but like biology is the way to sort of break

992
01:02:29,334 --> 01:02:31,194
sort of the paradox

993
01:02:31,194 --> 01:02:32,334
with girls in completeness theorem,

994
01:02:32,474 --> 01:02:33,794
which is the idea effectively

995
01:02:33,794 --> 01:02:34,754
that like a member of a set

996
01:02:34,754 --> 01:02:35,774
can't be the entire set.

997
01:02:36,254 --> 01:02:37,194
And like his whole thing

998
01:02:37,194 --> 01:02:38,474
is like looking at this idea

999
01:02:38,474 --> 01:02:39,134
that, you know,

1000
01:02:39,394 --> 01:02:40,494
we try and map,

1001
01:02:40,614 --> 01:02:41,514
we try and bring everything back

1002
01:02:41,514 --> 01:02:42,394
to one-to-one mapping.

1003
01:02:42,394 --> 01:02:43,614
But the reality of biology

1004
01:02:43,614 --> 01:02:44,294
and, you know,

1005
01:02:44,334 --> 01:02:45,574
any complex system is

1006
01:02:45,574 --> 01:02:46,714
there is no one-to-one mapping.

1007
01:02:47,034 --> 01:02:48,234
There's like, you know,

1008
01:02:48,334 --> 01:02:50,514
N to M or M to N mapping

1009
01:02:50,514 --> 01:02:51,214
and that those things

1010
01:02:51,214 --> 01:02:52,014
can always change.

1011
01:02:52,054 --> 01:02:53,174
The relationships can change.

1012
01:02:53,714 --> 01:02:54,494
But it doesn't mean

1013
01:02:54,494 --> 01:02:55,314
we can't get like

1014
01:02:55,314 --> 01:02:56,294
a little bit better

1015
01:02:56,294 --> 01:02:57,454
at predicting what's going to happen

1016
01:02:57,454 --> 01:02:58,974
or, you know,

1017
01:02:58,974 --> 01:03:02,934
make progress on that front. So I think that's one thing. The second thing though, is I think

1018
01:03:02,934 --> 01:03:09,914
we can also, you know, I think maybe there's a call here for the models themselves. Like you can

1019
01:03:09,914 --> 01:03:14,314
make progress by saying, show us the weights, show us the system prompts that you're using to run the

1020
01:03:14,314 --> 01:03:17,994
model. You know, you keep getting better and better at that. But then there's also at some point,

1021
01:03:18,034 --> 01:03:22,054
I think a possibility of like, do we just somehow, I don't know, this seems like it should be a

1022
01:03:22,054 --> 01:03:26,214
government thing, but like maybe there's a, you know, a way to do this, but like literally open

1023
01:03:26,214 --> 01:03:30,334
source the model and all of this training. And maybe this is actually going to come from someone

1024
01:03:30,334 --> 01:03:36,194
that's just like a friendly whistleblower who just leaks all the data set. The more we can see not

1025
01:03:36,194 --> 01:03:40,134
just the weights, but literally every piece of information a model was trained on, maybe that

1026
01:03:40,134 --> 01:03:45,214
could happen one day on Noster, the more that model becomes a little bit more trusted. So I think

1027
01:03:45,214 --> 01:03:52,414
there's a lot of green field to figure out what to do to get better. At the same time, I think the

1028
01:03:52,414 --> 01:03:56,054
reality is exactly what you're saying. We also just have to accept in this new world,

1029
01:03:56,214 --> 01:04:08,334
determinism is over yeah can we talk about the mysterious 80 000 bitcoin transfer yes you asked

1030
01:04:08,334 --> 01:04:14,634
about that david tell us what did you see so i i shared an article that a friend sent me

1031
01:04:14,634 --> 01:04:21,294
that kind of took you know there's this like movement of 80 000 bitcoin and it kind of broke

1032
01:04:21,294 --> 01:04:26,914
down a bunch of you know hypotheses or observations or kind of it looked it it represented itself as

1033
01:04:26,914 --> 01:04:34,234
if it was doing all this like field work around what you know what that meant and who it likely

1034
01:04:34,234 --> 01:04:40,874
was and messages that were contained within the movement and i uh it seemed kind of like a

1035
01:04:40,874 --> 01:04:46,414
reasonable analysis but i have no idea if it was like legit or not so like i i'm not in the like

1036
01:04:46,414 --> 01:04:51,254
verify phase i was just in the like okay what is this thing so i sent it to you and it sounds like

1037
01:04:51,254 --> 01:04:56,914
maybe you were like oh this is kind of mostly nonsense well it came onto a lot of people's

1038
01:04:56,914 --> 01:05:03,914
radar i think when the 80 000 it was eight 10 000 bitcoin transactions moved all at the same time

1039
01:05:03,914 --> 01:05:11,814
i think uh blockchain history showed that all eight were from the same wallet that they were

1040
01:05:11,814 --> 01:05:20,914
tied together um that's a you know that's like eight billion dollars of bitcoin small amount

1041
01:05:21,254 --> 01:05:26,554
And I think initially it was proposed that maybe that was Roger Verr had like an extra stat.

1042
01:05:26,714 --> 01:05:28,374
There's speculation there.

1043
01:05:29,414 --> 01:05:36,534
Interestingly, at least one of the addresses were ones that Craig Wright claimed were his in prior legal proceedings.

1044
01:05:38,374 --> 01:05:40,894
Wouldn't surprise me if one or more of them were from Mount Gox.

1045
01:05:40,974 --> 01:05:41,254
Who knows?

1046
01:05:41,254 --> 01:05:45,154
But they definitely moved.

1047
01:05:45,754 --> 01:05:45,874
Another.

1048
01:05:47,254 --> 01:05:49,914
I mean, if that's the whole story is not.

1049
01:05:51,254 --> 01:05:56,274
that big a deal it could be roger ver it could be an early miner i think they were only one hop away

1050
01:05:56,274 --> 01:06:04,434
from the coinbase as well so it either was the miner or whoever purchased it from the miner

1051
01:06:04,434 --> 01:06:12,174
and it never moved you know it had only moved once um and these were coins from like 2010 i think

1052
01:06:12,174 --> 01:06:19,074
maybe 2011 14 years had passed they said because i think that was 2011 part of the hypothesis in

1053
01:06:19,074 --> 01:06:25,274
that article was that somebody was like kind of taking a precision assessment of these coins and

1054
01:06:25,274 --> 01:06:30,534
using some sort of established case law about property that remains unclaimed for a certain

1055
01:06:30,534 --> 01:06:34,574
amount of time and then you can actually claim it as yours or something like that i think that was a

1056
01:06:34,574 --> 01:06:40,834
little bit of the setup of the article anyway if it was just that's the end of the story i wouldn't

1057
01:06:40,834 --> 01:06:46,034
i mean we just move on i mean every six months there's someone from that era who moves their

1058
01:06:46,034 --> 01:06:52,494
coins and no big deal um but then another interesting wrinkle and this article does

1059
01:06:52,494 --> 01:07:02,014
mention this as well is that each of those addresses also had um bitcoin or basically

1060
01:07:02,014 --> 01:07:10,014
opportune messages sent to those addresses with messages and these messages were around

1061
01:07:10,014 --> 01:07:20,654
the rightful legal owner of those coins it had a web link to a solomon brothers website to fill

1062
01:07:20,654 --> 01:07:28,194
out a form and i forget all the other details but it basically was putting the owner of those

1063
01:07:28,194 --> 01:07:32,854
bitcoin on notice that they need to move their bitcoin or take action fill out this form of their

1064
01:07:32,854 --> 01:07:38,474
bitcoin take actions to claim their bitcoin otherwise and it did say in these messages that

1065
01:07:38,474 --> 01:07:46,034
someone has stepped up claiming they're the rightful owner of this bitcoin so that's ominous

1066
01:07:46,034 --> 01:07:53,574
and scary uh it turns out that it's not just those addresses receive this these opportune messages

1067
01:07:53,574 --> 01:08:02,214
many addresses have been sort of blanketed or dusted with these opportune messages uh so one

1068
01:08:02,214 --> 01:08:10,554
theory is that you know someone spammed a bunch of bitcoin addresses with this and this particular

1069
01:08:10,554 --> 01:08:20,794
owner got spooked and moved their bitcoin as a response basically as instructed um to prove

1070
01:08:20,794 --> 01:08:27,714
ownership and prove it's not abandoned property yes now there's other ways to prove you own the

1071
01:08:27,714 --> 01:08:33,815
bitcoin you can you could sign a message as a response to their upper turn with the private

1072
01:08:33,815 --> 01:08:37,614
key and that would prove that you control the private keys and you wouldn't have had to transfer

1073
01:08:37,614 --> 01:08:45,214
the bitcoin so um and that would be even that that would be definitive proof that you're responding

1074
01:08:45,214 --> 01:08:52,334
to their message because otherwise it it could just be like completely independently these bitcoin

1075
01:08:52,334 --> 01:08:59,514
or transferred unaware of this message or independent of the message um are these addresses

1076
01:08:59,514 --> 01:09:07,454
somehow at bigger risk because they're old like the older a lot of format sure it's a large quantity

1077
01:09:07,454 --> 01:09:14,315
but like is there something with the way the signature is it p2sh or whatever is there something

1078
01:09:14,315 --> 01:09:31,792
to do with the format of the way bitcoin used to be stored or the way these addresses hold it that put them at risk of an exploit The ones that received the message I think just have a lot of Bitcoin Okay Well I mean sorry I haven done nearly as much research but my understanding was that these addresses those really

1079
01:09:31,792 --> 01:09:33,792
early ones, I guess have like less

1080
01:09:33,792 --> 01:09:35,932
randomness or entropy in the generation.

1081
01:09:36,472 --> 01:09:37,912
And so, I mean, I didn't see this

1082
01:09:37,912 --> 01:09:39,932
implied in the article, but like

1083
01:09:39,932 --> 01:09:41,852
one crazy, and I'm not saying this

1084
01:09:41,852 --> 01:09:43,872
is at all the case, but like

1085
01:09:43,872 --> 01:09:45,811
couldn't one also theory be like someone has a

1086
01:09:45,811 --> 01:09:47,972
quantum computer and broke the ones with less

1087
01:09:47,972 --> 01:09:53,771
I mean, I saw that theory as well, but I'm not sure what you're referring to about less entropy.

1088
01:09:55,231 --> 01:10:07,112
Well, I assumed those earlier 2010-2011 coins that the address type would be easier for a quantum computer to break than ones that came, I don't know, later on.

1089
01:10:07,972 --> 01:10:13,052
No, there's no addresses that have less entropy.

1090
01:10:14,452 --> 01:10:17,952
Interesting. I have to go back and recheck what I was going to say.

1091
01:10:17,972 --> 01:10:20,211
sure someone can generate an address

1092
01:10:20,211 --> 01:10:21,771
with old types, new types

1093
01:10:21,771 --> 01:10:24,191
in 2011 and 2025 that has

1094
01:10:24,191 --> 01:10:25,552
weak entropy but the

1095
01:10:25,552 --> 01:10:27,992
technology available was not

1096
01:10:27,992 --> 01:10:29,572
weaker then than it is now.

1097
01:10:29,992 --> 01:10:32,032
Interesting. So I have to go back and re-read what the claim was

1098
01:10:32,032 --> 01:10:33,231
but there was some claim that

1099
01:10:33,231 --> 01:10:36,072
isn't this understood that there are certain address types that are

1100
01:10:36,072 --> 01:10:38,072
more prone

1101
01:10:38,072 --> 01:10:39,432
I guess because we've changed.

1102
01:10:39,612 --> 01:10:42,132
Yeah. So both

1103
01:10:42,132 --> 01:10:44,092
old and new.

1104
01:10:45,112 --> 01:10:45,332
Okay.

1105
01:10:45,671 --> 01:10:47,552
So maybe what you're referring to is

1106
01:10:47,972 --> 01:10:49,731
pay to pub key.

1107
01:10:50,271 --> 01:10:50,992
Yeah, that could be it.

1108
01:10:51,572 --> 01:10:54,112
So that has nothing to do with entropy.

1109
01:10:54,352 --> 01:10:54,932
Entropy, yeah.

1110
01:10:55,632 --> 01:10:56,892
It's because pay to pub key

1111
01:10:56,892 --> 01:10:58,872
doesn't hash

1112
01:10:58,872 --> 01:10:59,972
the address.

1113
01:10:59,972 --> 01:11:01,852
Right, it exposes the address to raw.

1114
01:11:02,572 --> 01:11:02,912
Yes.

1115
01:11:03,592 --> 01:11:04,992
And so does taproot.

1116
01:11:05,952 --> 01:11:06,892
Got it, okay.

1117
01:11:07,252 --> 01:11:08,932
So this is something hopefully

1118
01:11:08,932 --> 01:11:10,492
I'll learn a lot more about next week

1119
01:11:10,492 --> 01:11:11,852
at the Quantum Summit.

1120
01:11:13,072 --> 01:11:14,311
But is that,

1121
01:11:14,632 --> 01:11:16,052
were these coins that moved,

1122
01:11:16,052 --> 01:11:22,771
were they raw pub key exposed or do we know that i i doubt they were i think they were paid a pub

1123
01:11:22,771 --> 01:11:31,592
key hash but um i'd have to go look to verify but i i don't think that but i did see some theory

1124
01:11:31,592 --> 01:11:37,392
that you know they were they did that they were generated with weak entropy and but not because

1125
01:11:37,392 --> 01:11:41,412
of the address type just they just happened to be generated weak entropy and were stolen

1126
01:11:41,412 --> 01:11:52,952
um but okay let's get to the i think the more credible um attack here is that it appears to be

1127
01:11:52,952 --> 01:12:02,092
there there's another craig right like legal attack brewing so all right i'm quite positive

1128
01:12:02,092 --> 01:12:07,032
david is familiar with solomon brothers but our younger brother max here have you heard of

1129
01:12:07,032 --> 01:12:08,151
Solomon Brothers before?

1130
01:12:08,612 --> 01:12:09,952
I have seen the Big Shorts.

1131
01:12:11,992 --> 01:12:12,852
Were they?

1132
01:12:13,432 --> 01:12:15,311
That was pre-Big Shorts.

1133
01:12:15,412 --> 01:12:15,792
Oh, shit.

1134
01:12:16,252 --> 01:12:16,932
Okay, never mind.

1135
01:12:17,332 --> 01:12:17,872
Rome Brothers,

1136
01:12:18,032 --> 01:12:18,612
not Lehman Brothers,

1137
01:12:18,711 --> 01:12:18,952
Solomon Brothers.

1138
01:12:19,072 --> 01:12:19,972
I do remember the name,

1139
01:12:20,092 --> 01:12:20,932
but you'll have to catch me.

1140
01:12:21,292 --> 01:12:22,151
Not Lehman Brothers,

1141
01:12:22,252 --> 01:12:23,012
Solomon Brothers.

1142
01:12:23,311 --> 01:12:24,252
They were a top five

1143
01:12:24,252 --> 01:12:25,592
investment banking firm

1144
01:12:25,592 --> 01:12:27,112
in the 80s.

1145
01:12:27,392 --> 01:12:27,671
Wow.

1146
01:12:27,912 --> 01:12:29,191
They were a very large,

1147
01:12:29,271 --> 01:12:31,372
dominant Wall Street firm

1148
01:12:31,372 --> 01:12:35,412
that got acquired

1149
01:12:35,412 --> 01:12:36,132
in, I think,

1150
01:12:36,191 --> 01:12:36,671
2000.

1151
01:12:37,032 --> 01:12:41,992
three so prior to the big short in any case a few years ago

1152
01:12:41,992 --> 01:12:50,992
there was some kind of revival or attempt to revive the brand i don't know a lot about this

1153
01:12:50,992 --> 01:12:56,552
history other than there's an attempt i don't know if it's how it's going or who's behind it or

1154
01:12:56,552 --> 01:13:01,092
but there's i saw that uh bitmex research

1155
01:13:01,092 --> 01:13:08,372
went to this website that's included in this these op return messages which is a solomon brothers

1156
01:13:08,372 --> 01:13:15,872
website that lists a bunch of advisors of all these people who used to work for solomon brothers

1157
01:13:15,872 --> 01:13:22,872
and bitmex research reached out to all these people and got replies back saying that they

1158
01:13:22,872 --> 01:13:31,211
they confirmed that they are advisors of this company so it at least confirmed that the website

1159
01:13:31,211 --> 01:13:40,452
and the at least some of the advisors are authentic um what's unknown is

1160
01:13:40,452 --> 01:13:45,432
but it's unclear if those people know that these opportune messages were sent

1161
01:13:45,432 --> 01:13:54,392
but it could be the case that they're solomon this new solomon brothers has a client who is saying

1162
01:13:54,392 --> 01:14:03,252
i own all of this bitcoin and i'm hiring you to like go get it for me or something i don't know

1163
01:14:03,252 --> 01:14:08,651
pure speculation but it raises the question that we now need to think about and worry about

1164
01:14:08,651 --> 01:14:15,112
is there a new attack brewing on bitcoin where people are gonna with a new legal ploy

1165
01:14:15,112 --> 01:14:18,711
to try to claim ownership of Bitcoin

1166
01:14:18,711 --> 01:14:22,252
in which they are actually not the rightful owner.

1167
01:14:22,352 --> 01:14:23,231
They don't have the private key.

1168
01:14:25,252 --> 01:14:27,112
All right, two questions about one.

1169
01:14:28,211 --> 01:14:30,372
I guess, I don't know if this was published

1170
01:14:30,372 --> 01:14:31,171
in the BitMEX thing.

1171
01:14:31,771 --> 01:14:33,452
The people that said they are advisors

1172
01:14:33,452 --> 01:14:34,271
to Solomon Brothers,

1173
01:14:35,231 --> 01:14:37,612
did they know who is behind this?

1174
01:14:37,771 --> 01:14:39,612
Or like, I mean, maybe they just wouldn't divulge,

1175
01:14:39,691 --> 01:14:41,912
but presumably someone got them to sign a contract

1176
01:14:41,912 --> 01:14:42,892
to be an advisor.

1177
01:14:43,472 --> 01:14:44,012
Do we know who?

1178
01:14:44,012 --> 01:14:45,412
I don't know if they are asked.

1179
01:14:45,691 --> 01:14:49,412
So I just know that they either are unaware of the message.

1180
01:14:50,292 --> 01:14:51,632
I don't think they are asked.

1181
01:14:52,052 --> 01:14:54,752
So it's unknown if they're aware or not aware.

1182
01:14:55,632 --> 01:14:56,832
And then the second question is,

1183
01:14:56,912 --> 01:15:00,632
even if someone were doing this as kind of like a strange legal attack,

1184
01:15:01,651 --> 01:15:04,211
I mean, okay, say you come before and say,

1185
01:15:04,432 --> 01:15:07,811
this is my Bitcoin, it's been unclaimed for 14 years.

1186
01:15:08,632 --> 01:15:11,211
A court or someone says, okay, fine, it's yours.

1187
01:15:11,211 --> 01:15:15,012
like one wouldn't you have some burden of proof to prove that you

1188
01:15:15,012 --> 01:15:19,191
have the private key and two even if you did win some ruling from a court

1189
01:15:19,191 --> 01:15:23,292
someone still has a private key I mean they own the Bitcoin right like that's it's almost irrelevant

1190
01:15:23,292 --> 01:15:27,332
um I have no idea

1191
01:15:27,332 --> 01:15:30,771
but I do know that Craig Wright in one of his lawsuits

1192
01:15:30,771 --> 01:15:34,792
was claiming a bunch of addresses were his

1193
01:15:34,792 --> 01:15:39,151
and he was asking the court he claimed

1194
01:15:39,151 --> 01:15:44,231
to the court the software developers and he gave them a list of developers he claimed

1195
01:15:44,231 --> 01:15:54,231
controlled bitcoin and it was they had a fiduciary duty to change the software to give him his bitcoin

1196
01:15:54,231 --> 01:16:03,171
and that court case got uh closed because he lost the copa court case but it was not resolved

1197
01:16:03,171 --> 01:16:12,771
so someone who wished to attack bitcoin again could pursue those lines saying this list of people

1198
01:16:12,771 --> 01:16:20,352
uh control bitcoin a court could order them to change the code to get them the bitcoin now we

1199
01:16:20,352 --> 01:16:26,072
all know how that actually works in practice even if these developers to stay out of prison

1200
01:16:26,072 --> 01:16:33,191
wrote the code to assign these reassign these bitcoin to another person uh that that software

1201
01:16:33,191 --> 01:16:39,271
is not going to be adopted although taking to the extreme then the courts could issue this

1202
01:16:39,271 --> 01:16:44,072
verdict to coinbase and all the different companies in the space and say you have to

1203
01:16:44,072 --> 01:16:50,691
run the software it's court order i mean i'd like to see that play out that would be

1204
01:16:50,691 --> 01:16:55,912
totally absurd um i don't think that would survive i'd like to see that play

1205
01:16:55,912 --> 01:17:13,252
But at this point, I mean, just imagine that if a court really got to that point, it would make, I mean, there's a lot of vested interest in the price of Bitcoin now. So in the price of Bitcoin goes to zero if that were to actually happen.

1206
01:17:13,252 --> 01:17:20,392
so right i wonder if part of this could be somebody trying to lay claim to early coins

1207
01:17:20,392 --> 01:17:26,892
that they think would be abandoned in the future if there's a future quantum exploit that they sort

1208
01:17:26,892 --> 01:17:32,832
of lay initial claim to those so that when maybe it's a year from now maybe it's 10 years from now

1209
01:17:32,832 --> 01:17:39,932
when quantum finally becomes possible to break some of these addresses and you don't know like

1210
01:17:39,932 --> 01:17:41,592
what happens to Satoshi's coins or whatever?

1211
01:17:42,072 --> 01:17:43,052
Well, maybe their answer is,

1212
01:17:43,112 --> 01:17:44,472
well, I already have laid claim.

1213
01:17:44,792 --> 01:17:47,092
I'm the first, you know, in line here.

1214
01:17:48,052 --> 01:17:49,412
That's an interesting thought.

1215
01:17:49,932 --> 01:17:50,811
That could be the case.

1216
01:17:51,352 --> 01:17:54,092
So I think this is one to keep paying attention to.

1217
01:17:55,672 --> 01:17:57,892
We should discuss more about the Quantum Summit too.

1218
01:17:57,992 --> 01:18:00,372
I mean, one of the things I've been thinking about is,

1219
01:18:00,372 --> 01:18:03,172
I mean, obviously we know some cryptography types

1220
01:18:03,172 --> 01:18:04,512
are vulnerable to quantum.

1221
01:18:04,872 --> 01:18:06,271
We say some are quantum resistant.

1222
01:18:06,532 --> 01:18:09,412
I'm not an expert enough to know why we think that.

1223
01:18:09,412 --> 01:18:28,632
But one thing that I am, I don't know, like curious about is it is interesting this is all happening as AI, some would argue, is reaching some sort of singularity type point. I do wonder if there are risks we're not thinking through carefully enough with superintelligence hitting same time as quantum.

1224
01:18:28,632 --> 01:18:33,792
and um you know i i don't know like i wonder what assumptions we have about the nature of

1225
01:18:33,792 --> 01:18:38,412
cryptography and like you know obviously we say well it's it's you know it's easy to multiply but

1226
01:18:38,412 --> 01:18:43,032
difficult to divide it in a world with super intelligence um who knows where that goes and so

1227
01:18:43,032 --> 01:18:46,592
i don't know i mean this definitely this definitely gives me a little concern it's a little weird

1228
01:18:46,592 --> 01:18:56,691
when it comes to quantum i'm still being skeptic because i mean a quantum computer still has

1229
01:18:56,691 --> 01:18:59,752
only demonstrated, I think it was like

1230
01:18:59,752 --> 01:19:03,311
11 years ago could factor

1231
01:19:03,311 --> 01:19:07,452
like 21 and now it can only

1232
01:19:07,452 --> 01:19:09,992
11 years later can only factor 95.

1233
01:19:10,452 --> 01:19:13,752
I mean, I realize it's exponential growth.

1234
01:19:14,172 --> 01:19:17,111
And not just exponential growth, I think maybe one important thought

1235
01:19:17,111 --> 01:19:21,311
for researchers and people that are charting trends here is we look at the

1236
01:19:21,311 --> 01:19:24,852
quantum growth in a quote-unquote modern-day world,

1237
01:19:25,151 --> 01:19:26,311
but we're not charting that.

1238
01:19:26,691 --> 01:19:30,532
with the help of super intelligence researchers around it.

1239
01:19:31,191 --> 01:19:33,832
Again, I don't want to raise any fun because I know nothing.

1240
01:19:34,012 --> 01:19:35,691
This is literally just me speculating right now.

1241
01:19:36,211 --> 01:19:38,452
But something we should definitely chat about at the Quantum Summit as well

1242
01:19:38,452 --> 01:19:40,271
is those two factors overlapping.

1243
01:19:40,752 --> 01:19:42,412
Because if you have super intelligent researchers,

1244
01:19:43,752 --> 01:19:45,992
I mean, what can they plus quantum do?

1245
01:19:46,052 --> 01:19:46,731
I have no idea.

1246
01:19:48,111 --> 01:19:50,972
Yeah, I look forward to learn a lot on Thursday or Friday.

1247
01:19:51,932 --> 01:19:53,271
It's a week from tomorrow.

1248
01:19:54,191 --> 01:19:54,372
Yeah.

1249
01:19:54,512 --> 01:19:55,111
Thursday, yeah.

1250
01:19:55,111 --> 01:20:00,231
And if people are in San Francisco and want to attend, can they still apply to get a ticket?

1251
01:20:02,211 --> 01:20:03,271
You'd have to ask.

1252
01:20:03,792 --> 01:20:04,271
You'd have to ask.

1253
01:20:04,632 --> 01:20:05,292
Mr. Alex here.

1254
01:20:06,092 --> 01:20:06,532
Alex.

1255
01:20:06,811 --> 01:20:08,111
I'm sure he can hear us.

1256
01:20:08,771 --> 01:20:09,211
Yeah.

1257
01:20:10,191 --> 01:20:11,072
What's the 411?

1258
01:20:11,552 --> 01:20:12,532
Yeah, what's the deal?

1259
01:20:12,632 --> 01:20:16,191
Can we still attend the Quantum Summit if we haven't applied already?

1260
01:20:16,932 --> 01:20:18,392
There are a few spots left.

1261
01:20:18,932 --> 01:20:20,672
You can apply at pbquantum.com.

1262
01:20:21,572 --> 01:20:22,512
pbquantum.com.

1263
01:20:22,972 --> 01:20:23,191
Okay.

1264
01:20:23,672 --> 01:20:23,912
Interesting.

1265
01:20:23,912 --> 01:20:24,211
Yeah.

1266
01:20:24,211 --> 01:20:32,271
But by the way, while we have Alex in the mic, in the headphones, I see we have a chat.

1267
01:20:32,832 --> 01:20:34,731
Could you pull that up?

1268
01:20:34,832 --> 01:20:36,532
I'm just curious who's been chatting with us.

1269
01:20:37,472 --> 01:20:37,792
Please.

1270
01:20:38,292 --> 01:20:38,771
Oh, thank you.

1271
01:20:39,052 --> 01:20:39,211
Oh.

1272
01:20:40,412 --> 01:20:40,691
Oh.

1273
01:20:41,172 --> 01:20:41,912
That's the beginning.

1274
01:20:42,271 --> 01:20:46,172
I think John's showing probably to hear about Skibbity, is my guess.

1275
01:20:46,191 --> 01:20:46,412
Oh, yeah.

1276
01:20:46,492 --> 01:20:47,912
Actually, we did.

1277
01:20:47,912 --> 01:20:50,132
Oh, is this John from Whole Fun?

1278
01:20:50,672 --> 01:20:52,912
I'm guessing it's John Spahari, but I don't know.

1279
01:20:52,912 --> 01:21:00,771
But if it is John Spahari, he created Bolt.fun, where Mutiny was born and a lot of other.

1280
01:21:01,032 --> 01:21:02,932
It was like a great hackathon.

1281
01:21:03,512 --> 01:21:09,632
So my guess is it's him, and he was interested in hearing about Skibbity.

1282
01:21:10,052 --> 01:21:11,832
If it is, John's.

1283
01:21:11,992 --> 01:21:17,132
What Bolt.fun, I don't know if they've been operating recently, but those guys were the OGs.

1284
01:21:17,132 --> 01:21:23,211
all of the early original Bitcoin application experimentation came out of the hard work that

1285
01:21:23,211 --> 01:21:28,052
Johns did. So that dude is a legend. If it is you, what's up, Johns? Yeah, what's up, Johns?

1286
01:21:28,532 --> 01:21:34,572
I, you know, back on the Skivity topic, I did have prepped this screen share. So if you are

1287
01:21:34,572 --> 01:21:38,872
watching this in video format, I wanted to at least share this and we can kind of walk through

1288
01:21:38,872 --> 01:21:45,611
and talk through some of what it is. But this is the first place winning prize for the Skivity cash.

1289
01:21:45,611 --> 01:21:48,292
and I did want to take a quick walk through

1290
01:21:48,292 --> 01:21:49,832
because I think it's cool.

1291
01:21:50,432 --> 01:21:52,432
It takes a very innovative approach

1292
01:21:52,432 --> 01:21:53,972
to what a wallet should be.

1293
01:21:54,472 --> 01:21:57,072
A winning wallet turns onboarding into an interactive game.

1294
01:21:57,172 --> 01:21:58,412
Did you guys all see this video?

1295
01:21:59,992 --> 01:22:01,952
It's four minutes, so I'm not going to play the whole thing,

1296
01:22:02,052 --> 01:22:03,432
but we'll just play the beginning.

1297
01:22:04,172 --> 01:22:06,412
You see the toilet head,

1298
01:22:07,532 --> 01:22:09,072
the Satoshi in a toilet,

1299
01:22:09,372 --> 01:22:10,211
Skibbidi Satoshi.

1300
01:22:12,912 --> 01:22:15,252
It's very cartoon and animated.

1301
01:22:15,611 --> 01:22:22,711
create wallet ready for the mini game and so you're walking through the you're walking through

1302
01:22:22,711 --> 01:22:30,771
like a a kind of a 2d type you know 3d looking environment and you're like getting a key and

1303
01:22:30,771 --> 01:22:38,072
you lost you need a secret passphrase here's 12 words you know so sort of a game-like onboarding

1304
01:22:38,072 --> 01:22:45,592
to the concept of a 12 word uh you know private key which is very different than almost any

1305
01:22:45,592 --> 01:22:51,412
other wallet you've got you know gifts here and cats first sending me down here's your first six

1306
01:22:51,412 --> 01:22:57,632
words so it turns what's ultimately like a very weird confusing experience when people are like

1307
01:22:57,632 --> 01:23:03,752
why can't i just have an email and a password like i do for every other website um it it sort of

1308
01:23:03,752 --> 01:23:12,492
introduces people to the concepts of you know a 12 word uh phrase you know within this game context

1309
01:23:12,492 --> 01:23:14,252
You're sort of learning while you're having fun.

1310
01:23:15,592 --> 01:23:17,552
So I just wanted to at least share that.

1311
01:23:17,632 --> 01:23:20,492
You can see these rewards you get, skibbity bob.

1312
01:23:20,832 --> 01:23:22,512
I mean, they did a really good job.

1313
01:23:23,912 --> 01:23:25,111
I think this is great.

1314
01:23:25,432 --> 01:23:26,132
It's amazing.

1315
01:23:26,672 --> 01:23:33,611
I mean, they've really taken this concept as a playing card level hacker.

1316
01:23:34,932 --> 01:23:35,771
Like they did.

1317
01:23:35,952 --> 01:23:41,492
I mean, somebody really spent time to think through like a very, very different experience.

1318
01:23:41,492 --> 01:23:48,412
experience for how to onboard to a bitcoin wallet and i i wanted to just sort of like you know give

1319
01:23:48,412 --> 01:23:52,691
that a little bit of props and sort of you know get a chance to to look through it together because

1320
01:23:52,691 --> 01:23:58,892
i think i think you know most people say oh bitcoin wallets they're already they're already

1321
01:23:58,892 --> 01:24:03,132
there we already have them it's not a business whatever like people have all kinds of preconceptions

1322
01:24:03,132 --> 01:24:07,032
about bitcoin walls i think a point steve has always made is there's there's so many different

1323
01:24:07,032 --> 01:24:11,872
ways to think about wallets and how you market them and how the feature set works and everything

1324
01:24:11,872 --> 01:24:16,132
and i think you know here we are what you know bitcoin's been around 16 years or whatever and

1325
01:24:16,132 --> 01:24:21,532
here we are with like a totally innovative new approach to what a wallet should look like that

1326
01:24:21,532 --> 01:24:26,592
feels more like a video game so i wanted to at least demo that and kind of yeah thanks shout out

1327
01:24:26,592 --> 01:24:34,172
to them yeah that's cool agree and thanks for demoing that um let's maybe give a quick touch on

1328
01:24:34,172 --> 01:24:39,972
the pakistan bitcoin mining and imf real quick i don't think there's a whole lot to say here but

1329
01:24:39,972 --> 01:24:44,731
um there is a new story i think came out yesterday saying that the uh

1330
01:24:45,552 --> 01:24:53,211
there's ambition i mean there's work being done right now within pakistan to support

1331
01:24:53,211 --> 01:24:59,231
bitcoin mining for a lot of their and and carve out a lot of their energy build out

1332
01:24:59,231 --> 01:25:02,132
and directed towards Bitcoin mining

1333
01:25:02,132 --> 01:25:04,032
while it's not being used

1334
01:25:04,032 --> 01:25:05,512
because there's no demand yet for it.

1335
01:25:05,611 --> 01:25:08,311
It's much like Max wrote about four or five years ago.

1336
01:25:08,611 --> 01:25:11,332
And we talked about when you do a big energy build out,

1337
01:25:11,632 --> 01:25:14,252
you build it so that you can meet the demand

1338
01:25:14,252 --> 01:25:15,792
over the next like 25 years

1339
01:25:15,792 --> 01:25:17,752
and you don't have all that demand up front.

1340
01:25:17,892 --> 01:25:20,292
So you have all this like dormant energy supply

1341
01:25:20,292 --> 01:25:23,912
and Bitcoin mining is an amazing economic vehicle.

1342
01:25:23,912 --> 01:25:26,892
So that's exactly what Pakistan is hoping to do.

1343
01:25:26,892 --> 01:25:36,172
and what they're learning from the imf is imf doesn't isn't is not approving that um

1344
01:25:36,172 --> 01:25:45,771
or at least yeah they're they don't like that idea um and my understanding is that um

1345
01:25:45,771 --> 01:25:54,012
it was specifically the terms crypto and bitcoin were red flags

1346
01:25:54,012 --> 01:26:00,711
because uh i my understanding is that a phase one of this did get approved by imf and they

1347
01:26:00,711 --> 01:26:08,092
changed the terminology to just hpc high performance computing high performance computing

1348
01:26:08,092 --> 01:26:14,572
like ai ai yep so just compute and then that got approved and then now they're working on a phase

1349
01:26:14,572 --> 01:26:20,111
to approval and it used the term crypto or bitcoin and that did not get approved um it's

1350
01:26:20,111 --> 01:26:26,191
also my understanding that that uh it's not their decision to make really but i can imagine it could

1351
01:26:26,191 --> 01:26:34,572
impact future loans etc but um just interesting to pay attention to that and compare that to

1352
01:26:34,572 --> 01:26:39,151
el salvador because that's been an ongoing saga back and forth with the imf or not

1353
01:26:39,151 --> 01:26:45,811
and bitcoiners love to get riled up about how the imf is feels threatened or wants to squash bitcoin

1354
01:26:45,811 --> 01:26:50,672
and i'm always trying to tease out like how true is that versus not and like how much of it is

1355
01:26:50,672 --> 01:26:57,932
specifically el salvador or bukele or their games or strategy versus imf so it's it's nice to have

1356
01:26:57,932 --> 01:27:05,611
another country to compare to to see what happens but from what i see so far it appears the imf does

1357
01:27:05,611 --> 01:27:13,012
have like you know crypto and bitcoin are red flags they don't like it and they want to squash

1358
01:27:13,012 --> 01:27:20,072
it you don't say the imf really doesn't like bitcoin yeah yep um i know we've only got a few

1359
01:27:20,072 --> 01:27:26,852
minutes we do have another topic from the title that we haven't spoken about which i i thought

1360
01:27:26,852 --> 01:27:33,292
was kind of interesting so i don't know if we can can squeeze one in but uh uh this robin hood

1361
01:27:33,292 --> 01:27:37,752
tokenized stocks product. Have you guys seen it, played with it, know much about it?

1362
01:27:38,492 --> 01:27:45,132
Just heard that lens. I was excited to buy OpenAI stock through it. And then OpenAI told me that it

1363
01:27:45,132 --> 01:27:49,872
knows nothing about it and it's not OpenAI stock. So I ran away.

1364
01:27:50,972 --> 01:27:55,992
So I think, you know, just for the setup here, I think what I understand is Robinhood had a big

1365
01:27:55,992 --> 01:28:00,752
announcement of a new platform they were doing that was going to tokenize stocks, meaning a lot

1366
01:28:00,752 --> 01:28:06,752
people can't buy stocks through like a traditional brokerage account and so if you can get a robin

1367
01:28:06,752 --> 01:28:14,472
hood account you could buy something of like a token equivalent or a mirror type product of these

1368
01:28:14,472 --> 01:28:20,352
underlying stocks and i think they had gotten i assume they had gotten some allocation in the

1369
01:28:20,352 --> 01:28:27,731
private markets of things like spacex i think was one of the the ones and open ai was another one

1370
01:28:27,731 --> 01:28:34,211
but um but when you're buying a token you don't actually have the rights of ownership that you

1371
01:28:34,211 --> 01:28:40,372
have when you buy equity through a traditional brokerage so there's people out there thinking

1372
01:28:40,372 --> 01:28:44,932
that they're going to be able to buy open ai stock but they're really buying is tokens issued

1373
01:28:44,932 --> 01:28:51,392
not by open ai but tokens issued by robin hood that's attempting to track open ai stock but

1374
01:28:51,392 --> 01:28:56,771
without open ai's agreement and obviously open ai can issue more shares and that's going to dilute

1375
01:28:56,771 --> 01:29:00,932
your tokens just like you would if you were an equity holder but you actually have like zero

1376
01:29:00,932 --> 01:29:06,092
rights as a token holder that's not even the token wasn't even issued by the company i mean it'd be

1377
01:29:06,092 --> 01:29:11,512
bad enough if the token were issued by the company and you know kind of in the way a lot of that

1378
01:29:11,512 --> 01:29:17,032
nonsense happens uh but here you actually have like a third party you know creating tokens that

1379
01:29:17,032 --> 01:29:22,752
are not even agreed to be created by the equity issuer so i think you kind of have no rights and

1380
01:29:22,752 --> 01:29:23,771
the kind of code is law.

1381
01:29:24,172 --> 01:29:24,852
What's the good one?

1382
01:29:25,012 --> 01:29:25,852
Narrative is just,

1383
01:29:25,992 --> 01:29:26,151
yeah,

1384
01:29:26,172 --> 01:29:27,532
what could possibly go wrong?

1385
01:29:27,852 --> 01:29:28,392
So I think opening,

1386
01:29:28,452 --> 01:29:29,252
I came out and said,

1387
01:29:29,392 --> 01:29:30,952
this is not us.

1388
01:29:31,032 --> 01:29:31,792
We don't honor these.

1389
01:29:31,912 --> 01:29:32,512
This is just,

1390
01:29:32,512 --> 01:29:32,912
you know,

1391
01:29:32,932 --> 01:29:33,432
nonsense.

1392
01:29:33,492 --> 01:29:33,811
Is that,

1393
01:29:34,231 --> 01:29:35,252
is that kind of the state of things?

1394
01:29:35,271 --> 01:29:35,691
Is anybody,

1395
01:29:36,092 --> 01:29:37,892
did Robin Hood come back and say anything about,

1396
01:29:37,892 --> 01:29:38,892
about,

1397
01:29:38,892 --> 01:29:42,512
about why it's actually good or why they think they actually have some claim here?

1398
01:29:43,392 --> 01:29:43,992
I didn't,

1399
01:29:44,052 --> 01:29:45,151
I didn't see a response.

1400
01:29:45,811 --> 01:29:46,072
Um,

1401
01:29:46,292 --> 01:29:50,611
it's also interesting to analyze this both for public stocks and private stocks.

1402
01:29:50,872 --> 01:29:51,271
Um,

1403
01:29:52,332 --> 01:29:52,711
cause like,

1404
01:29:52,752 --> 01:29:56,432
SpaceX and OpenAI are examples of privately held ones.

1405
01:29:56,972 --> 01:29:59,691
Historically, we've had secondary markets

1406
01:29:59,691 --> 01:30:03,552
giving some people access to that,

1407
01:30:03,632 --> 01:30:06,271
but it's always been pretty limited and a lot of friction.

1408
01:30:09,072 --> 01:30:12,952
So, you know, if this works,

1409
01:30:13,032 --> 01:30:17,492
it would like massively reduce friction for any user.

1410
01:30:18,492 --> 01:30:20,472
Or so for the few people who had access

1411
01:30:20,472 --> 01:30:22,092
to these systems in the past,

1412
01:30:22,092 --> 01:30:27,711
it would like be a way better ux and you'd expand it to everyone in the world could access it so

1413
01:30:27,711 --> 01:30:35,972
that's super powerful um and for public stocks a lot more people have access to that and it's

1414
01:30:35,972 --> 01:30:40,952
pretty frictionless these days for those people but there's a whole lot of people in the world

1415
01:30:40,952 --> 01:30:48,252
who don't have access to even public stocks so this platform from robahood could could open up

1416
01:30:48,252 --> 01:30:57,372
access to that but um it has all the all the problems you mentioned uh or trade-offs the

1417
01:30:57,372 --> 01:31:05,111
thing is though that might be worth the risk to a lot of people um if you don't have access and

1418
01:31:05,111 --> 01:31:11,432
you want exposure and these high upside opportunities if there's a 10 20 even 50

1419
01:31:11,432 --> 01:31:19,452
percent chance it just disappears due to these risks it actually might be a financially logical

1420
01:31:19,452 --> 01:31:29,292
move a rational move to make so um i can see it being successful even with a purely rational thinking

1421
01:31:29,292 --> 01:31:40,352
um but it'll just it'll also be interesting to see how it's regulated yeah i mean it seems like

1422
01:31:40,352 --> 01:31:41,752
I wonder if it's legal at all.

1423
01:31:41,832 --> 01:31:42,572
So I'm curious if that goes.

1424
01:31:42,651 --> 01:31:44,392
But I mean, it reminds me of like ABR back in the day

1425
01:31:44,392 --> 01:31:46,211
had these synthetic, you know, ideas

1426
01:31:46,211 --> 01:31:47,392
of like contracts for difference.

1427
01:31:47,771 --> 01:31:48,711
And it certainly makes sense

1428
01:31:48,711 --> 01:31:50,231
like for both public and private equities,

1429
01:31:50,231 --> 01:31:51,231
there's a huge market around the world

1430
01:31:51,231 --> 01:31:51,992
that can't access them

1431
01:31:51,992 --> 01:31:53,852
that even if you create a synthetic position,

1432
01:31:53,972 --> 01:31:54,992
you say you're going to track it,

1433
01:31:55,052 --> 01:31:56,211
like there's going to be demand for it.

1434
01:31:56,472 --> 01:31:57,432
So I don't know if that's what they're doing,

1435
01:31:57,492 --> 01:31:58,651
but the synthetic position idea

1436
01:31:58,651 --> 01:31:59,632
is very interesting to me.

1437
01:31:59,832 --> 01:32:00,771
But it's like the same idea of like,

1438
01:32:00,811 --> 01:32:01,952
do I have the raw tether token

1439
01:32:01,952 --> 01:32:03,072
or a contract for difference

1440
01:32:03,072 --> 01:32:04,292
to create a synthetic dollar?

1441
01:32:04,711 --> 01:32:05,512
Different set of risks.

1442
01:32:05,632 --> 01:32:07,352
And to me, it just sounds kind of like illegal.

1443
01:32:07,352 --> 01:32:08,731
So, I mean, I'm not a legal expert.

1444
01:32:08,852 --> 01:32:10,372
I don't know, but I'd be careful.

1445
01:32:12,151 --> 01:32:12,651
All right.

1446
01:32:12,752 --> 01:32:13,771
I think that's an open AI set.

1447
01:32:13,952 --> 01:32:15,452
Open AI set, be careful.

1448
01:32:15,952 --> 01:32:16,392
Be careful.

1449
01:32:17,452 --> 01:32:19,092
Was that the intelligence talking?

1450
01:32:19,211 --> 01:32:20,711
Did they have an LLM generate their?

1451
01:32:21,372 --> 01:32:21,632
Exactly.

1452
01:32:23,172 --> 01:32:23,632
I took it.

1453
01:32:24,711 --> 01:32:25,252
All right.

1454
01:32:25,472 --> 01:32:25,731
All right.

1455
01:32:26,292 --> 01:32:26,811
That's a wrap.

1456
01:32:27,352 --> 01:32:27,972
Let's do it.

1457
01:32:28,672 --> 01:32:29,271
Until next time.

1458
01:32:29,271 --> 01:32:29,492
Good to see you guys.

1459
01:32:30,092 --> 01:32:30,632
Until next time.

1460
01:32:31,372 --> 01:32:31,832
Bye, everyone.

1461
01:32:31,972 --> 01:32:32,292
Later on.