1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,500 We live? 2 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:01,020 We live. 3 00:00:01,100 --> 00:00:01,340 We're live. 4 00:00:01,420 --> 00:00:03,040 Welcome to Presidio Bitcoin. 5 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:03,540 Get us going. 6 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:04,200 We're back. 7 00:00:04,220 --> 00:00:05,140 That is how we get started. 8 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:05,580 That's right. 9 00:00:05,580 --> 00:00:06,180 That's how we get started. 10 00:00:06,220 --> 00:00:06,620 We're live. 11 00:00:06,980 --> 00:00:07,580 Took a week off. 12 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:08,860 It's been two weeks. 13 00:00:08,940 --> 00:00:10,480 It feels like I haven't seen you guys in ages. 14 00:00:10,660 --> 00:00:10,980 I know. 15 00:00:11,060 --> 00:00:11,400 How are you doing? 16 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:12,320 Good. 17 00:00:12,380 --> 00:00:12,620 Cold. 18 00:00:12,980 --> 00:00:13,940 It's been cold in San Francisco. 19 00:00:13,940 --> 00:00:14,800 Yeah, we had a cold snap. 20 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:16,000 Yeah, what's going on with that? 21 00:00:16,300 --> 00:00:16,620 Atmospheric. 22 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:17,080 Right. 23 00:00:17,460 --> 00:00:20,020 In the office on Monday, I was absolutely freezing. 24 00:00:20,180 --> 00:00:20,480 Yeah. 25 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,420 Which, I mean, for anyone who knows, like, this podcast studio is, like, hot as hell. 26 00:00:24,420 --> 00:00:25,260 So this is... 27 00:00:25,260 --> 00:00:26,320 The fact that DK and Steve... 28 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:26,840 I may have to... 29 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,020 I ran over, so I may have to put on a jacket. 30 00:00:30,260 --> 00:00:30,620 Anyways. 31 00:00:31,020 --> 00:00:31,520 Is this new? 32 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:33,460 You're usually like with a college shirt. 33 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:34,340 You look kind of fancy. 34 00:00:34,460 --> 00:00:35,640 Is this Japan? 35 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:36,960 I'm trying to increase my style. 36 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:37,520 Is it Japanese? 37 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:38,440 It's not. 38 00:00:38,540 --> 00:00:38,780 Okay. 39 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:40,360 No, it looks like it could be. 40 00:00:40,460 --> 00:00:43,660 It was purchased in the time frame of Japan. 41 00:00:43,820 --> 00:00:44,040 Okay. 42 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:51,960 But yeah, so I went to Japan over Thanksgiving week and had a great time. 43 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,960 Do they have any turkey celebratory things in Japan? 44 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:57,640 No, but we ate a lot. 45 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:58,260 What'd you eat? 46 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,720 Like four different styles of Japanese. 47 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:02,560 What was the best? 48 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:06,740 It was also good. 49 00:01:07,100 --> 00:01:07,700 Yeah, Japan. 50 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,340 Yeah, like the hot pot was really, really good. 51 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:15,900 I mean, we did sushi with teppanaki. 52 00:01:16,580 --> 00:01:21,120 We also went to a pizza place, which was like phenomenal pizza. 53 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:21,820 It was probably the best pizza. 54 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:22,660 In Kyoto. 55 00:01:22,900 --> 00:01:24,880 I hadn't been to Kyoto for like 20 years. 56 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,580 Do you guys just do Kyoto or Tokyo too? 57 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:27,780 A little bit of Tokyo, yeah. 58 00:01:28,020 --> 00:01:32,460 Four days of Tokyo and four or five days and then three, four days of Kyoto. 59 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:32,860 Nice. 60 00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:38,060 So I've been to Tokyo quite a few times, but typically for work. 61 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,200 So it was nice to go on a personal vacation. 62 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:41,920 And then Kyoto had been 20 years. 63 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,920 I'd frankly forgotten all about it. 64 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:45,220 Kyoto is amazing. 65 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:45,600 Yeah. 66 00:01:45,860 --> 00:01:49,120 And also I learned like the time of year to go is exactly when we went. 67 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:49,480 What? 68 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,520 Autumn, the leaves changing. 69 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,520 I have some epic photos and just really, really beautiful. 70 00:01:56,980 --> 00:01:57,080 Yeah. 71 00:01:57,380 --> 00:01:59,060 I also had a request. 72 00:01:59,780 --> 00:02:02,100 Max asked me to get green tea. 73 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:02,900 I thought you forgot. 74 00:02:04,340 --> 00:02:06,800 And I told Max, I don't know anything about green tea. 75 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:08,440 Oh, my God. 76 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:09,640 Steve. 77 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:11,820 Oh, thank you. 78 00:02:13,860 --> 00:02:14,460 Thank you. 79 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:14,840 Oh. 80 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:15,740 And I'm. 81 00:02:16,100 --> 00:02:16,440 Oh, my God. 82 00:02:16,500 --> 00:02:17,520 I don't know. 83 00:02:17,660 --> 00:02:18,640 I don't know what I'm doing. 84 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:19,240 Yeah. 85 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,700 But I'm told this is ceremonial grade. 86 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:24,300 This is good shit. 87 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:25,660 And picked from Kyoto Prefecture. 88 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:26,120 Wow. 89 00:02:26,260 --> 00:02:31,200 So for those of you who can't see, it says here, Hoki Kiwama Bitcoin Matcha. 90 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:31,700 What? 91 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:32,320 Are you serious? 92 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:32,840 The Bitcoin standard. 93 00:02:32,980 --> 00:02:33,080 No. 94 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:34,600 I got you. 95 00:02:34,860 --> 00:02:36,540 This is gold, but I'm just... 96 00:02:36,540 --> 00:02:37,680 Thank you, Steve. 97 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:38,300 It's very sweet. 98 00:02:38,900 --> 00:02:40,020 It's high in... 99 00:02:40,020 --> 00:02:42,140 I did it, chat GPT, because it's all Japanese. 100 00:02:42,300 --> 00:02:42,900 I can't read it. 101 00:02:43,460 --> 00:02:45,400 Even if I could read it, I wouldn't know what I'm reading. 102 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,140 But chat GPT says it's high in the umami. 103 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:49,480 So five out of five. 104 00:02:49,580 --> 00:02:50,420 And you know umami. 105 00:02:50,580 --> 00:02:51,840 That's my prize quality. 106 00:02:52,140 --> 00:02:52,680 So there you go. 107 00:02:52,740 --> 00:02:53,300 Well, thank you. 108 00:02:54,020 --> 00:02:55,360 That's genuinely very sweet. 109 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:55,780 Thank you. 110 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:56,780 Oh, boy. 111 00:02:56,820 --> 00:02:57,220 I can't wait. 112 00:02:57,340 --> 00:02:58,200 I'm going to have some right after this. 113 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,000 I'm doing some green tea matcha here. 114 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:01,420 Just the Kirkland stuff. 115 00:03:01,740 --> 00:03:03,140 In honor of you. 116 00:03:03,340 --> 00:03:03,860 All right. 117 00:03:03,900 --> 00:03:04,820 In honor of Japan and me. 118 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:05,260 We're all, yeah. 119 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:06,580 And I'm sporting. 120 00:03:06,580 --> 00:03:14,160 We have our favorite tea dealer in Japantown who sponsored or served up at the Type 1 Summit. 121 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:20,640 word on the street is we just came in this morning with 23 bags of that for our type 1 speakers so 122 00:03:20,640 --> 00:03:24,940 that's a little bit of an off drop if you're a type 1 speaker look get ready look forward this 123 00:03:24,940 --> 00:03:30,700 is breakaway what's breakaway breakaway matcha or no no no oh well the other guy i i hear i don't 124 00:03:30,700 --> 00:03:34,940 know if alex wants to chime in but that that may also be included but that's that's not confirmed 125 00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:43,540 this is confirmed so anyways also show well while i was in japan um i had to follow along remotely 126 00:03:43,540 --> 00:03:45,660 on some really exciting sports 127 00:03:45,660 --> 00:03:47,720 during Thanksgiving week. 128 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:49,680 DK, you want to take about half an hour 129 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:51,020 while we're back. 130 00:03:51,020 --> 00:03:52,780 I'm sure DK was able to watch live. 131 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,060 I had to watch later when I was back in the States. 132 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:57,340 He was on Discord discussing with people. 133 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,180 There was a big college basketball tournament 134 00:04:00,180 --> 00:04:02,000 in Vegas, the players era 135 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:03,800 where they could earn all this NIL money. 136 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,100 And Iowa State rocked it. 137 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:06,980 You guys dominated, right? 138 00:04:07,060 --> 00:04:07,820 They're 8-0 now. 139 00:04:08,140 --> 00:04:09,980 Even this week, we played some nobody team 140 00:04:09,980 --> 00:04:11,480 that scored 132 points. 141 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,760 And I saw you and Haley were discussing 142 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:15,320 because Gonzaga at one point was one. 143 00:04:15,460 --> 00:04:16,600 Did you guys beat Gonzaga? 144 00:04:16,820 --> 00:04:17,500 Did y'all play or no? 145 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:17,840 No. 146 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:19,340 Gonzaga's had a really good season, 147 00:04:19,660 --> 00:04:21,020 but then they played in the championship 148 00:04:21,020 --> 00:04:22,340 at that Vegas tournament 149 00:04:22,340 --> 00:04:24,400 and lost to Michigan by like 40 points or something. 150 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:26,660 Michigan's playing ridiculous level. 151 00:04:27,060 --> 00:04:28,480 And they got that UAB player. 152 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:28,980 What's his name? 153 00:04:29,060 --> 00:04:30,620 The dude that's like going off for triple levels. 154 00:04:30,860 --> 00:04:31,000 Yeah. 155 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:32,560 Sucked on the Blazers. 156 00:04:32,820 --> 00:04:36,340 So Iowa State plays at number one Purdue tomorrow. 157 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:36,840 Ooh. 158 00:04:37,140 --> 00:04:37,800 That's a big game. 159 00:04:38,500 --> 00:04:40,020 Biggest test you can have. 160 00:04:40,020 --> 00:04:40,900 And I got to tell you, 161 00:04:40,900 --> 00:04:42,980 So from the Memphis side, there's two things happening. 162 00:04:43,060 --> 00:04:45,540 On the Tigers side, it's been a rough start to the season. 163 00:04:45,620 --> 00:04:46,180 I'm not going to lie. 164 00:04:46,260 --> 00:04:47,340 We got a couple of players coming. 165 00:04:47,460 --> 00:04:51,840 So from Memphis, it's a tough situation because we're outside of like the power of conferences, right? 166 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,980 So we got a, Penny's got the number one, maybe number two now. 167 00:04:55,060 --> 00:04:56,440 It's him and Alabama's strength of schedule. 168 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,880 So like really, really tough schedule, but we just keep losing. 169 00:04:59,340 --> 00:05:04,120 And the first couple of games, I got to say Aaron Bradshaw from Iowa State, like that guy is bad. 170 00:05:04,620 --> 00:05:06,200 Like, man, like I can't believe we paid him. 171 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:06,680 He's listening. 172 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:08,320 I like the guy. 173 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,300 He sounds like a sweet, like thoughtful human. 174 00:05:10,300 --> 00:05:12,760 and he's starting to play better, so there's hope. 175 00:05:12,940 --> 00:05:14,720 But man, it is harsh. 176 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:16,620 But we got some other guys that are ballers. 177 00:05:16,700 --> 00:05:19,860 Julius Bedford, that dude's like, he's like Tony Allen, 178 00:05:19,980 --> 00:05:20,920 like the grit, the grind. 179 00:05:21,220 --> 00:05:23,520 He's out there 6-3, but getting 10 rebounds a game, 180 00:05:23,620 --> 00:05:24,540 just hustle, baby. 181 00:05:25,020 --> 00:05:27,580 Anyway, so the point is, we got a couple big games coming up. 182 00:05:27,660 --> 00:05:28,920 We played Purdue, though. 183 00:05:29,540 --> 00:05:30,780 So to give you a little bit of the recon, Scott. 184 00:05:30,780 --> 00:05:32,520 And you played them pretty well. 185 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:34,000 Like Texas Tech lost by 30. 186 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:35,580 Yeah, and we took them to the wire. 187 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,760 I think we were up with like 10 minutes left or something like that. 188 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,460 So hopefully Iowa State's watching film of that game. 189 00:05:42,900 --> 00:05:43,220 Yeah. 190 00:05:43,860 --> 00:05:44,780 I got to say, though, 191 00:05:44,840 --> 00:05:47,200 it's probably a little bit inappropriate, but whatever. 192 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:49,460 We keep it real on PB. 193 00:05:50,780 --> 00:05:51,760 I don't get it. 194 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,840 I watch Purdue, and it's a bunch of kind of like balding white dudes. 195 00:05:55,580 --> 00:05:56,680 You're saying the players are? 196 00:05:56,700 --> 00:05:57,060 Yeah. 197 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:58,440 They're like seven feet, though, right? 198 00:05:58,660 --> 00:06:01,540 Well, I mean, there's some talk, but I don't get it, man. 199 00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:02,580 Anyways, it is what it is. 200 00:06:02,580 --> 00:06:05,100 But that leads me to my other point that I want to make. 201 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,700 So I've been getting super back into the NBA, 202 00:06:07,700 --> 00:06:11,680 partially because I'm sad with the Tigers sitting at like 75 and Ken Palm, you know, it sucks. 203 00:06:12,260 --> 00:06:15,020 But on the NBA side, Memphis also got off to a rough start. 204 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:17,800 You know, Jaws got all his issues always and everything else. 205 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,500 But Zach Eady, talking of Purdue, oh my God. 206 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:23,180 Tall white dude. 207 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:25,260 Not just a tall white dude. 208 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:26,040 I'm watching that man. 209 00:06:26,100 --> 00:06:30,240 First of all, okay, first of all, Zach Eady, no, no, no, Shaq Eady. 210 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:35,840 This man, seven foot five, he's like a refrigerator. 211 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:37,580 And people say he's not athletic. 212 00:06:37,700 --> 00:06:39,260 I'm going to come out and say another comment. 213 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:40,520 That was just racist. 214 00:06:40,980 --> 00:06:43,840 This man is around the basket with feathery touch, 215 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:45,500 incredible footwork. 216 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:46,980 Yeah, he's half white, half Asian, 217 00:06:47,060 --> 00:06:48,240 but like, good Lord. 218 00:06:48,780 --> 00:06:50,660 I'm on the Zach Eadie train like MVP. 219 00:06:51,180 --> 00:06:51,760 All right. 220 00:06:51,900 --> 00:06:53,080 I'm going to start watching. 221 00:06:53,460 --> 00:06:53,740 It was good. 222 00:06:54,260 --> 00:06:55,460 Anyways, what do you think, DJ? 223 00:06:55,620 --> 00:06:56,020 All right. 224 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:57,900 And the last sports comment, 225 00:06:57,900 --> 00:07:00,180 and then we can move on to what we normally talk about. 226 00:07:01,500 --> 00:07:03,800 Both of our teams lost our football coaches. 227 00:07:04,180 --> 00:07:05,280 So yours went to Arkansas. 228 00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:06,240 You told me about the show. 229 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:07,040 You're happy about that? 230 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:07,780 Yeah, we don't like him. 231 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,880 He's the kind of guy, he puts up empty wins, 232 00:07:10,940 --> 00:07:12,880 and then he fumbles always in crunch time. 233 00:07:12,980 --> 00:07:14,660 We've never won a conference championship with him. 234 00:07:14,860 --> 00:07:16,100 Thank God Arkansas took him off. 235 00:07:16,180 --> 00:07:17,780 But he upgrades the SEC. 236 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:18,600 Good for him. 237 00:07:19,420 --> 00:07:21,380 Arkansas, short their administration. 238 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,440 That's a really bad AD, but we'll take it. 239 00:07:23,820 --> 00:07:26,640 And then Iowa State's football coach, 240 00:07:26,820 --> 00:07:29,920 who's delivered a decade of excellence at Iowa State. 241 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:30,420 He's good. 242 00:07:32,020 --> 00:07:35,660 Kalshi has a 97% chance of going to Penn State. 243 00:07:35,700 --> 00:07:36,540 Oh, so it's not official. 244 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:37,840 It's not official. 245 00:07:37,940 --> 00:07:39,980 I've been watching Call Sheet like minute by minute. 246 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:46,160 And it was like 70% last night, then dropped to 30%. 247 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,820 I'm like, it's turning around and now it's 97%. 248 00:07:48,820 --> 00:07:50,960 So that just means we need a big BTC pump. 249 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:55,440 So a new Iowa State booster can get on the phone and make sure he doesn't leave. 250 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,820 Some Iowa farmer offered him beef for life to save Iowa State. 251 00:08:01,820 --> 00:08:06,520 unfortunately Penn State is probably offering like 252 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:06,860 a lot 253 00:08:06,860 --> 00:08:08,280 $11 million a year or something 254 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:08,640 yeah 255 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:09,540 but who wants some 256 00:08:09,540 --> 00:08:10,160 that buys a lot of 257 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:11,320 Penn State and that's cold 258 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:12,040 anyways 259 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:12,820 we'll see 260 00:08:12,820 --> 00:08:14,520 but that actually brings up one topic 261 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,420 which DK perhaps you'll have some more comments on 262 00:08:16,420 --> 00:08:19,620 and kind of ties into our normal stuff with Bitcoin 263 00:08:19,620 --> 00:08:21,200 it is interesting to me 264 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:22,420 you know you point that out 265 00:08:22,420 --> 00:08:23,860 and I've seen more people on Twitter 266 00:08:23,860 --> 00:08:25,400 and various venues talking about 267 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:26,880 Calci, Polymarket 268 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:28,980 we've talked about the Bitcoin equivalent 269 00:08:28,980 --> 00:08:29,900 which I forget what it's called 270 00:08:29,900 --> 00:08:30,540 Predicts 271 00:08:30,540 --> 00:08:33,060 it does seem like prediction markets 272 00:08:33,060 --> 00:08:34,560 like after the last election 273 00:08:34,560 --> 00:08:36,240 like people have asked for decades 274 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:37,220 like win prediction markets 275 00:08:37,220 --> 00:08:38,060 why don't they take off 276 00:08:38,060 --> 00:08:39,420 and you can argue gambling 277 00:08:39,420 --> 00:08:40,340 you know in Vegas 278 00:08:40,340 --> 00:08:41,440 kind of was prediction markets 279 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:42,800 elections were the only kind of critical math 280 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,220 but it does seem like prediction markets 281 00:08:44,220 --> 00:08:45,580 are having a moment going mainstream 282 00:08:45,580 --> 00:08:46,580 would you guys agree with that? 283 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:47,040 I agree 284 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,500 because one way I help keep it real 285 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:51,460 break out of Silicon Valley tech 286 00:08:51,460 --> 00:08:52,660 Bitcoin nerd world 287 00:08:52,660 --> 00:08:56,600 is to be in my Iowa State sports forums 288 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,300 right with a bunch of Iowa 289 00:08:58,300 --> 00:09:00,840 and they 290 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,480 most people in those farms 291 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:03,580 still live in Iowa 292 00:09:03,580 --> 00:09:04,320 and 293 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:05,840 they're just not 294 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:06,780 in like Silicon Valley 295 00:09:06,780 --> 00:09:07,660 tech circles generally 296 00:09:07,660 --> 00:09:10,200 and they're 297 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:10,740 like 298 00:09:10,740 --> 00:09:12,180 everyone's referencing 299 00:09:12,180 --> 00:09:12,760 Kalshi 300 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:14,180 as to whether 301 00:09:14,180 --> 00:09:14,800 is Matt Campbell 302 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:15,540 coming or 303 00:09:15,540 --> 00:09:16,500 going or whatever 304 00:09:16,500 --> 00:09:17,620 and so has Kalshi 305 00:09:17,620 --> 00:09:18,920 won over Polymarket? 306 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:20,560 I don't think so 307 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:21,460 I think it's still 308 00:09:21,460 --> 00:09:22,320 I looked up 309 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:23,100 I didn't find 310 00:09:23,100 --> 00:09:23,980 the Matt Campbell 311 00:09:23,980 --> 00:09:24,680 to Penn State 312 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:25,500 on Polymarket 313 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:25,920 so 314 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,100 it's almost like 315 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:32,320 I don't know how these markets get developed, 316 00:09:32,860 --> 00:09:34,860 but it's like a marketing opportunity 317 00:09:34,860 --> 00:09:36,300 if you're the number two player. 318 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:36,700 Yeah. 319 00:09:36,700 --> 00:09:40,680 Like develop something that's becoming popular 320 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:42,880 that's not yet on Polymarket. 321 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,680 My understanding is Kalshi is the only regulated one. 322 00:09:46,820 --> 00:09:49,440 And so I think they launched with Robinhood 323 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,520 where you can actually bet on it 324 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,520 with your Robinhood brokerage account or something. 325 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:54,720 I guess you wouldn't call it back. 326 00:09:54,860 --> 00:09:56,200 Maybe invest in an outcome. 327 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:03,040 it's not betting it's investing thank god um the american populace really needed that it's just a 328 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,600 prediction yeah it's just a prediction what is the difference between investing and gambling 329 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:15,040 could you could you draw a strong line in the sand there i mean at some level no but personally i 330 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:23,180 will say for me investing is something that i plan to hold for many years would you ever buy something 331 00:10:23,180 --> 00:10:25,900 as an investment that you would plan to never sell? 332 00:10:26,660 --> 00:10:27,060 Absolutely. 333 00:10:28,260 --> 00:10:30,560 Is that the definition of an investment? 334 00:10:30,620 --> 00:10:31,600 I'd have to think about it more. 335 00:10:31,900 --> 00:10:33,760 Well, I do think there's a distinction. 336 00:10:34,620 --> 00:10:37,960 One, with cash flow generating businesses, 337 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,980 you're investing in something that's a productive asset 338 00:10:41,980 --> 00:10:43,860 or intended to be a productive asset 339 00:10:43,860 --> 00:10:47,100 versus something that literally is a binary outcome. 340 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,300 Also, maybe getting to your point of long-term 341 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:54,640 is just like a business investment 342 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,580 intended to be a sustainable investment. 343 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,440 Whereas if you're predicting, 344 00:11:00,780 --> 00:11:01,940 is Matt Campbell going to be hired? 345 00:11:02,500 --> 00:11:03,400 It ends. 346 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:05,440 I mean, it literally... 347 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:05,860 Durations. 348 00:11:06,260 --> 00:11:08,600 By a certain date, this has to happen. 349 00:11:09,220 --> 00:11:11,460 So that seems very different as well. 350 00:11:11,460 --> 00:11:13,940 But then if you compare it to gold and Bitcoin, 351 00:11:14,060 --> 00:11:15,500 which are non-productive assets, 352 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,520 or we can argue Bitcoin could be with yields and stuff, 353 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:23,540 But I think you need a little bit different flavor of argument there. 354 00:11:24,620 --> 00:11:31,360 Yeah, I would also say, I mean, yes, but it certainly is a gradient. 355 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:37,780 And one thing that I would say is, I know the Bitcoiners absolutely love him, but we're full of narrative violations. 356 00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:45,220 so let's go um i let a lot of my investing strategy be influenced maybe 11 or 12 years ago 357 00:11:45,220 --> 00:11:52,660 by of all people nasim taleb um before he became a bsv supporter and which he lost a lot of 358 00:11:52,660 --> 00:11:57,920 credibility at one point that's i mean just go shoot never worship your heroes like whatever 359 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:03,860 never meet your heroes yeah none of that um that said uh the book um anti-fragile did you guys read 360 00:12:03,860 --> 00:12:09,000 that book? Phenomenal. And it really, I mean, I read it right out of college. It had a big impact 361 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,500 on the way I think about everything. And part of like the general strategy that I loved about that 362 00:12:13,500 --> 00:12:17,500 was, you know, his whole thing was like 90%, like super, super, super safe. 363 00:12:18,860 --> 00:12:23,340 And then like 10% highest risk on ever. And you can like adjust the numbers, 80%, 20%, whatever. 364 00:12:23,660 --> 00:12:28,940 But the general takeaway for me was everyone that kind of lives in this like mediocre stand world 365 00:12:28,940 --> 00:12:33,500 of like trying to chase like, oh, it's medium risk and medium reward usually just gets 366 00:12:33,500 --> 00:12:40,620 owned. And so really kind of like embracing life at the tails is something that, and, you know, 367 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:44,040 I think about that with like something like startup investing, right? Like something like Bitcoin, 368 00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:47,960 for me, at least I put in like the left, like that's your solid rock. Although he would disagree 369 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,820 with that. But to me it is. On the other side, I would say investing in things like startups, 370 00:12:52,820 --> 00:12:56,680 like I do through the fund or I know you guys do personally, that to me is like super, super high 371 00:12:56,680 --> 00:13:02,420 risk, but like super high upside. And Bitcoin was like that maybe in 2011 or something. But yeah, 372 00:13:02,420 --> 00:13:05,560 I think that balance is interesting, like where people find the dial. 373 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:06,120 Yeah. 374 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:11,880 I wonder the gambling versus investing thing, because it's, you know, I've felt in the past 375 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,580 that I had a clear distinction in my mind of like, what is gambling and what is investing? 376 00:13:15,660 --> 00:13:20,640 And I feel like I can't really articulate a clean line, which kind of, I guess that first 377 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,720 was raised to me a few years ago and now it kind of bothers me. 378 00:13:22,780 --> 00:13:23,980 I can't really articulate it. 379 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:25,760 Why does that bother you? 380 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,200 I guess I felt I had more certainty about what that is. 381 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,200 And now it all feels like a mess. 382 00:13:32,420 --> 00:13:35,320 we'll go deeper on it on like a 383 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,100 hour to hour bike ride 384 00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:39,520 and then maybe if we come to conclusions 385 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:40,580 we'll share it 386 00:13:40,580 --> 00:13:43,740 I think DK is entering his phase of postmodern 387 00:13:43,740 --> 00:13:44,180 malays 388 00:13:44,180 --> 00:13:47,200 David and I 389 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,100 almost always 390 00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:53,900 well very often we're already on the same 391 00:13:53,900 --> 00:13:55,460 page we view things similarly 392 00:13:55,460 --> 00:13:58,120 and when we don't see that when we're not on the same page 393 00:13:58,120 --> 00:13:59,920 we almost always 394 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:01,540 once we talk about converge 395 00:14:01,540 --> 00:14:02,960 convert. Yeah, I see that. 396 00:14:03,340 --> 00:14:05,520 But one thing we've never converged on 397 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,420 and we definitely shouldn't talk about it on the show 398 00:14:07,420 --> 00:14:08,600 or we'll start punching each other. 399 00:14:09,260 --> 00:14:11,360 It's like the S&P 500 400 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:12,800 or like 401 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,940 an index fund, whether 402 00:14:14,940 --> 00:14:17,200 that's, or actually it's more generally 403 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:18,180 like 404 00:14:18,180 --> 00:14:21,460 stocks. 405 00:14:21,820 --> 00:14:21,980 I think 406 00:14:21,980 --> 00:14:24,680 I'm more of the 407 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,300 you can actually calculate 408 00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:29,580 the value of future 409 00:14:29,580 --> 00:14:31,500 discounted cash flows or whatever. 410 00:14:31,540 --> 00:14:35,720 And then from there, there's some like alpha and beta and like ebbs and flows. 411 00:14:36,020 --> 00:14:42,040 And where I think you think it's more just like complete meme based and just whatever people believe. 412 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,560 And it's like less grounded on something. 413 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,140 Is this like the market like weighing versus voting machine? 414 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:48,240 And I think it is. 415 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,600 I think it's more grounded than David thinks. 416 00:14:51,700 --> 00:14:57,640 And then like it sort of comes back to that grounded point through cycles. 417 00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:59,300 Like a mean reversion type of thing. 418 00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:01,000 I mean, this is probably just a duration issue, though. 419 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,620 I mean, I think it's just a complex issue. 420 00:15:03,860 --> 00:15:05,940 Like, what is the money supply? 421 00:15:06,380 --> 00:15:07,660 What are interest rates? 422 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:09,440 What are the alternatives? 423 00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:15,140 What is the popular narrative that causes people to pile into NVIDIA today or out of NVIDIA? 424 00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:18,640 Like, it's all memes and vibes, in my opinion. 425 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,720 So I wanted the world to be the way Steve describes it. 426 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:23,920 I'm like, this is the world I want. 427 00:15:24,060 --> 00:15:29,660 Like, you can just be smart and analyze the thing and do the data research, just kind of cash flow and figure out what the right answer is and then invest. 428 00:15:29,660 --> 00:15:35,880 it's just i just don't see it that way i think it's just my hunch is the more we go fiat the 429 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,300 more you're right the more we eventually go on a bitcoin standard the more you'll be right like 430 00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:44,060 eventually i do think it's like like we talked about in the show it's like it's impossible all 431 00:15:44,060 --> 00:15:47,860 of these questions we have like i think about this and it's really hard to explain to people 432 00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:51,480 it's kind of like the greatest lie you know the devil ever played was convincing you you know 433 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:56,620 one word is the other word and it's like what we call quote-unquote free markets and capitalism 434 00:15:56,620 --> 00:15:58,740 has nothing to do with free markets or very little. 435 00:15:58,820 --> 00:15:59,780 And every year it's less and less 436 00:15:59,780 --> 00:16:02,460 because if the money supply is in fact rigged, 437 00:16:02,460 --> 00:16:05,140 then it's like when you take like sort of rational arguments, 438 00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:07,140 it's like, well, if I'm doing an experiment, 439 00:16:07,220 --> 00:16:08,740 we've talked about Bitcoin as the metric system. 440 00:16:08,740 --> 00:16:10,140 And it's like, okay, you know, 441 00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:14,160 do I expect my chicken that from baby size 442 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,360 to adult size to grow in size? 443 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,240 Like if I'm measuring it, like rationally, 444 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:19,480 you'd be like, well, of course, 445 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,160 like that would be retarded not to think so. 446 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:22,680 But on the other hand, it's like, well, 447 00:16:22,980 --> 00:16:25,520 what if tomorrow the dude with the ruler can come in 448 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:25,780 and you should be like, 449 00:16:25,980 --> 00:16:27,500 actually, we cut the ruler in half. 450 00:16:27,580 --> 00:16:29,800 And you're like, well, I don't know. 451 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,320 It's like your brain on fiat, you know? 452 00:16:32,460 --> 00:16:32,720 Anyways. 453 00:16:33,620 --> 00:16:35,260 But we'll explore more offline 454 00:16:35,260 --> 00:16:37,400 with gambling versus investment. 455 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,880 I think that's an interesting intellectual exercise. 456 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,180 And if we don't have to come back with black guys. 457 00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:46,360 One of us might write off a cliff on our bike. 458 00:16:46,540 --> 00:16:47,220 Yeah, oh shit. 459 00:16:48,340 --> 00:16:48,900 Just kidding. 460 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:51,540 We know who it is. 461 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:53,980 All right. 462 00:16:53,980 --> 00:16:56,280 I wanted to cover a few things before. 463 00:16:56,620 --> 00:16:57,280 Max wants to talk about it. 464 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:58,020 Sign our whoopee. 465 00:16:58,220 --> 00:16:58,340 Yeah. 466 00:16:59,620 --> 00:17:00,240 All right. 467 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:02,480 Bring it back, Steve. 468 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:02,980 Bring it back. 469 00:17:02,980 --> 00:17:03,580 Bring it back. 470 00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:07,960 Bickey had an announcement this week, 471 00:17:08,060 --> 00:17:12,480 which I think is a really cool new service. 472 00:17:12,740 --> 00:17:14,960 They are, you know, feature or service they provide, 473 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,180 which improves privacy. 474 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:18,140 Like a month ago, 475 00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:20,940 we talked about one privacy enhancement for Bickey. 476 00:17:21,120 --> 00:17:22,020 Now we have a second one. 477 00:17:22,020 --> 00:17:25,500 This one is not really part of the software or the product. 478 00:17:25,660 --> 00:17:26,480 It's how it's delivered. 479 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,660 So I can speak from personal experience. 480 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:37,000 You know, when I first got into the space in a serious way in 2017, I bought a Ledger. 481 00:17:38,260 --> 00:17:41,560 You know, I'd done some homework and learned about Trezor and Ledger, 482 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,920 and those two seemed like the best products at the time, 483 00:17:44,580 --> 00:17:48,700 and decided to buy a Ledger. 484 00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:51,860 and I just, you know, I went to the website 485 00:17:51,860 --> 00:17:55,840 and filled out the form and just like 486 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,100 gave me your social security number 487 00:17:57,100 --> 00:17:59,000 and just like, I don't know, bought something. 488 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,720 Like I was not steeped in OPSEC yet 489 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,840 and I just, you know, I delivered it to my house. 490 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,320 Well, then a few years later, 491 00:18:06,460 --> 00:18:09,240 I learned that either their database 492 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,420 or their third-party database, whatever, it got hacked. 493 00:18:12,140 --> 00:18:15,340 And so my home address was revealed, 494 00:18:15,780 --> 00:18:17,240 my email, my phone number. 495 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:22,840 So now I get daily spam and phishing texts and emails. 496 00:18:23,180 --> 00:18:26,380 I mean, I'm just completely desensitized to that because I get it so often. 497 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,420 And well, I moved away from that address. 498 00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:34,280 So hopefully the people living there have not had any issues. 499 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:36,100 But it's crazy, right? 500 00:18:37,020 --> 00:18:40,460 So that really bothered me. 501 00:18:40,460 --> 00:18:47,300 And so with BitKey, when it was originally launched, you couldn't buy with Bitcoin. 502 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,340 You had to give an address. 503 00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:58,460 And sure, someone could set up a non-home address, but most people are just going to do what I did. 504 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:04,080 Was it originally only available via the e-commerce site, like Best Buy or whoever didn't carry it? 505 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:08,460 Well, they partnered with Best Buy, but you could only buy it online. 506 00:19:08,460 --> 00:19:10,640 so you're still providing 507 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,140 personal identifiable 508 00:19:13,140 --> 00:19:13,760 information. 509 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,940 Even then it feels a little weird like a Best Buy. 510 00:19:17,820 --> 00:19:19,000 I mean, even then do you 511 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,000 really trust? How do you know people aren't at Best Buy 512 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,380 fucking with this in the background either? 513 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,000 I wouldn't be buying at Best Buy. 514 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,920 The Big Key product 515 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,920 does have some remote attestation to help 516 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,800 protect against that, so better than 517 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:31,660 other products. 518 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:34,460 In any case, 519 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,040 what they just announced is they partnered 520 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,700 with FedEx, Walgreens, Kroger's, 521 00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:42,140 and some other entity 522 00:19:42,140 --> 00:19:46,480 where you can ship it to FedEx 523 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:47,960 and go pick it up there. 524 00:19:49,420 --> 00:19:51,980 And also you've been able to pay with Bitcoin. 525 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,280 I think that was launched earlier this year. 526 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,180 So now you can go to the BitQ website, 527 00:19:56,340 --> 00:19:57,620 pay in Bitcoin, 528 00:19:58,520 --> 00:19:59,800 and then specify, 529 00:20:00,060 --> 00:20:02,780 oh, I want to pick it up at my local FedEx or whatever, 530 00:20:02,980 --> 00:20:04,360 and then go pick it up at FedEx. 531 00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:05,040 That's awesome. 532 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,580 Which is, I think, phenomenal, right? 533 00:20:07,660 --> 00:20:12,620 I mean, this is like the no-brainer way to buy a product that's going to hold your private keys. 534 00:20:12,980 --> 00:20:13,000 Right. 535 00:20:13,580 --> 00:20:21,020 How do you think about, like, think about, like, some people who may not necessarily understand the importance of what that means. 536 00:20:21,020 --> 00:20:31,800 That enables you to have a hardware wallet in simple UX, which gives you a substantial amount of privacy by not having it linked to any personally identifiable information. 537 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:33,760 but like maybe the skeptic would say, 538 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,180 oh, I'm not doing anything wrong. 539 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:35,740 Why does it matter? 540 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,840 So how would you explain, 541 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,020 like I'm just thinking of, you know, 542 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:40,620 I was explaining to my brother or somebody. 543 00:20:40,740 --> 00:20:43,180 He was not, you know, he like knows about Bitcoin a bit, 544 00:20:43,260 --> 00:20:44,240 but is not really into it. 545 00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:45,400 How would you explain why it doesn't matter? 546 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:46,560 I mean, I have to tell my story. 547 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:49,580 Like I felt violated having my, you know, 548 00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:54,380 my email, my phone number, 549 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,220 and my home address all leaked to criminals 550 00:20:57,220 --> 00:21:00,080 who have a list of people they know own ledgers, 551 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,600 likely have cryptocurrency. 552 00:21:02,580 --> 00:21:04,180 And now, like I said, 553 00:21:04,340 --> 00:21:06,140 I get daily phishing attacks 554 00:21:06,140 --> 00:21:07,800 trying to steal my cryptocurrency. 555 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:10,040 And 556 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,300 there's certainly been some reports 557 00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:14,060 of people having their home invaded. 558 00:21:15,060 --> 00:21:16,520 We had that two weeks ago 559 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:17,080 in San Francisco. 560 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,060 On the home invasion, 561 00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:22,080 my own opinion, 562 00:21:22,260 --> 00:21:24,060 I think that's still super rare 563 00:21:24,060 --> 00:21:26,360 and people shouldn't get super freaked out 564 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:28,420 about that. But it obviously increases the probability 565 00:21:28,420 --> 00:21:29,400 of it happening to you. 566 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,280 if you're leaked in a list associated with cryptocurrency. 567 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,800 So I think, yeah, most people, like your brother or whatever, 568 00:21:37,140 --> 00:21:41,780 they might not have that level of sensitivity to this issue. 569 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:47,260 But sharing personal anecdotes and concrete stories of what could go wrong, 570 00:21:47,340 --> 00:21:52,880 I think, then makes it, you know, they'd understand why it's important to do that. 571 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:58,120 Do you think it's important to think about that with respect to KYC coins 572 00:21:58,120 --> 00:21:59,640 versus non-KYC coins? 573 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:02,240 And like, is there a piece of that 574 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,400 that's kind of like the next step to think about? 575 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:05,940 I mean, there's different types of, 576 00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:08,540 I mean, there's all kinds of different attacks 577 00:22:08,540 --> 00:22:09,340 that can happen, right? 578 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:11,580 So, you know, so if you, 579 00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:14,640 the KYC stuff has nothing to do with phishing attacks 580 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,780 to your phone number, your email address, 581 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:17,800 or home invasions. 582 00:22:18,260 --> 00:22:20,800 Those are very, it's orthogonal attacks. 583 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,080 But like, I guess my point is, 584 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,020 you could imagine 585 00:22:26,020 --> 00:22:27,720 a 6102 586 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,320 government seizure 587 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:31,780 of Bitcoin at some point. 588 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:32,780 That's another possibility. 589 00:22:32,780 --> 00:22:35,500 It seems like a possibility. 590 00:22:36,340 --> 00:22:37,180 I'm just saying, yeah, I mean, 591 00:22:37,260 --> 00:22:39,820 there's many attacks 592 00:22:39,820 --> 00:22:41,900 that can be on Bitcoin. 593 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:43,760 This doesn't solve all of them. 594 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,200 This mitigates 595 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:46,800 some of them. 596 00:22:47,460 --> 00:22:50,240 In a way that I'm not aware 597 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:51,060 of any other product. 598 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:52,860 It's a unique feature. 599 00:22:52,860 --> 00:22:53,900 It's a great feature, by the way. 600 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:54,920 Whoever thought, that's a really good one. 601 00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:58,200 Do you already have the ability to time lock on BitKey? 602 00:23:00,020 --> 00:23:01,240 I don't think so. 603 00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:02,680 That would be an amazing feature, too. 604 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,800 Because my favorite things are River Unveiled Force Field. 605 00:23:06,140 --> 00:23:08,580 And increasingly, over time, I love where BitKey is going. 606 00:23:08,580 --> 00:23:11,660 So I thought you meant consensus level time lock. 607 00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:13,140 It's application level. 608 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:13,760 Is River doing? 609 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:14,580 River's just application level. 610 00:23:14,580 --> 00:23:15,280 It's application level? 611 00:23:15,340 --> 00:23:16,340 I thought it was consensus level. 612 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,880 Well, anyways, either consensus level or application level. 613 00:23:18,940 --> 00:23:19,420 Maybe both. 614 00:23:19,420 --> 00:23:21,940 I'd be interested in maybe you could have varying degrees. 615 00:23:22,860 --> 00:23:24,660 But increasingly seeing all that in the world, 616 00:23:24,820 --> 00:23:27,460 like honestly, as much as I love the self-custody stuff 617 00:23:27,460 --> 00:23:29,240 and I think I'm glad that BitKey's moving, 618 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:31,160 like I'm increasingly more in the camp of like, 619 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,400 let people like River with their time locks, 620 00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:36,360 just like, hey man, it's time locked in River. 621 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:39,660 Like I think that's increasingly an attractive proposition 622 00:23:39,660 --> 00:23:40,960 for a lot of people. 623 00:23:41,380 --> 00:23:42,860 And I would love to see BitKey move more. 624 00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:43,140 It's a nice feature. 625 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:53,058 I used Coinbase Coinbase has had this since like 2016 or something Really Yeah Oh wow I mean I They call it vault right They call it vault It an application level It the same thing as force field 626 00:23:53,818 --> 00:23:54,898 So they've had it forever. 627 00:23:55,558 --> 00:23:57,078 I used it for a period of time. 628 00:23:57,758 --> 00:24:02,918 It's definitely, if you're going to store with a third-party custodian, it's definitely 629 00:24:02,918 --> 00:24:05,498 a nice security feature. 630 00:24:05,738 --> 00:24:05,918 Right. 631 00:24:06,018 --> 00:24:07,698 But it's certainly not impenetrable. 632 00:24:07,938 --> 00:24:08,118 Right. 633 00:24:08,118 --> 00:24:13,218 I've seen many instances of where, in fact, just recently with Twitter, with X, 634 00:24:13,558 --> 00:24:17,478 was they did some upgrade to their two-factor 635 00:24:17,478 --> 00:24:20,678 and I got locked out. 636 00:24:20,758 --> 00:24:22,058 A bunch of users got locked out. 637 00:24:22,178 --> 00:24:22,738 I remember that. 638 00:24:23,078 --> 00:24:25,778 And I was able to get in touch with X 639 00:24:25,778 --> 00:24:26,558 through connections 640 00:24:26,558 --> 00:24:29,398 and they were offering over email 641 00:24:29,398 --> 00:24:32,278 like, oh, we'll just disable your two-factor 642 00:24:32,278 --> 00:24:33,818 to get in. 643 00:24:34,218 --> 00:24:34,298 What? 644 00:24:34,818 --> 00:24:34,978 Yeah. 645 00:24:35,418 --> 00:24:37,398 So it's application level, right? 646 00:24:37,458 --> 00:24:38,558 So all you have to do is trick 647 00:24:38,558 --> 00:24:40,658 some support person internally 648 00:24:40,658 --> 00:24:42,058 to like turn it off. 649 00:24:42,058 --> 00:24:44,978 So same with any kind of vault or force field, 650 00:24:45,598 --> 00:24:47,918 some employee could be tricked. 651 00:24:48,198 --> 00:24:50,038 So it's definitely a nice security feature, 652 00:24:50,218 --> 00:24:56,058 but definitely not as strong as the consensus level time lock. 653 00:24:56,578 --> 00:24:58,618 And then with a self-custody product like Bickey, 654 00:24:58,678 --> 00:25:01,338 you'd have to do a consensus level. 655 00:25:01,938 --> 00:25:02,058 Yeah. 656 00:25:02,378 --> 00:25:04,058 Yeah, well, anyways, that would be a really nice, 657 00:25:04,098 --> 00:25:05,558 I think, distinguishing feature for Bickey. 658 00:25:05,878 --> 00:25:06,058 Yeah. 659 00:25:06,318 --> 00:25:09,998 So anyway, I wanted to be sure to mention Bickey. 660 00:25:10,698 --> 00:25:14,398 Another thing I want to mention is the boss challenge. 661 00:25:15,358 --> 00:25:16,818 Do you know what the boss challenge is? 662 00:25:16,818 --> 00:25:17,478 What's the boss challenge? 663 00:25:17,758 --> 00:25:18,558 I do, but I don't know. 664 00:25:18,858 --> 00:25:20,778 I'll let you put up because it's going to fast. 665 00:25:20,778 --> 00:25:21,778 It's not a sports thing, isn't it? 666 00:25:21,858 --> 00:25:23,498 What would you guess of the boss challenge? 667 00:25:23,638 --> 00:25:25,858 I'm imagining I'm playing Super Mario Brothers 668 00:25:25,858 --> 00:25:27,238 and I'm like the final boss. 669 00:25:27,438 --> 00:25:29,258 You know, the dragon, and you got to kind of like 670 00:25:29,258 --> 00:25:31,238 avoid his fireballs or something. 671 00:25:31,898 --> 00:25:35,778 No, boss here is Bitcoin open source software. 672 00:25:35,778 --> 00:25:38,338 So instead of FOSS, it's a twist on FOSS. 673 00:25:38,398 --> 00:25:39,918 So it's free open source software development. 674 00:25:39,998 --> 00:25:42,498 for Bitcoin. Jonas from ChainCode 675 00:25:42,498 --> 00:25:44,398 has coined the term boss. 676 00:25:44,518 --> 00:25:44,938 It's a great name. 677 00:25:45,878 --> 00:25:48,418 He and ChainCode have created 678 00:25:48,418 --> 00:25:49,498 the boss challenge. 679 00:25:50,398 --> 00:25:51,838 This will be the third year. 680 00:25:52,078 --> 00:25:53,878 So I just want to let people, anyone listening 681 00:25:53,878 --> 00:25:56,298 or anyone listening who knows 682 00:25:56,298 --> 00:25:57,838 people who want to get into 683 00:25:57,838 --> 00:26:00,498 open source Bitcoin development in a serious way 684 00:26:00,498 --> 00:26:01,878 that this is for you. 685 00:26:01,878 --> 00:26:04,138 It's like a three month program, super intensive. 686 00:26:05,338 --> 00:26:05,938 Like I said, 687 00:26:05,998 --> 00:26:08,078 it's the third year running in the first two years. 688 00:26:08,078 --> 00:26:10,778 like 8, 9, 10 developers 689 00:26:10,778 --> 00:26:13,358 in each of those cohorts 690 00:26:13,358 --> 00:26:15,158 have gone on to get, 691 00:26:15,278 --> 00:26:16,558 they've gotten Spiral grants 692 00:26:16,558 --> 00:26:18,738 and many other jobs 693 00:26:18,738 --> 00:26:21,818 working in the open source Bitcoin space. 694 00:26:21,998 --> 00:26:23,298 So it's a really good program. 695 00:26:23,718 --> 00:26:25,018 So if anyone that you know 696 00:26:25,018 --> 00:26:27,438 is interested in going from like 697 00:26:27,438 --> 00:26:29,518 a Google job or tech job 698 00:26:29,518 --> 00:26:31,398 or whatever traditional 699 00:26:31,398 --> 00:26:32,838 software development job 700 00:26:32,838 --> 00:26:34,158 and they really want to get into Bitcoin 701 00:26:34,158 --> 00:26:36,038 and this is a good path. 702 00:26:36,038 --> 00:26:37,918 So this isn't like a beginner 101 703 00:26:37,918 --> 00:26:40,418 one thing that says you're really good at traditional software 704 00:26:40,418 --> 00:26:43,298 and now you want to become good at Bitcoin-ridden software. 705 00:26:43,538 --> 00:26:47,278 So you need to be a competent, skilled software developer. 706 00:26:48,478 --> 00:26:52,238 You can, but you can be, it's 101 for getting into Bitcoin, 707 00:26:52,438 --> 00:26:54,358 but it's an accelerated program. 708 00:26:54,358 --> 00:26:59,398 So you're expected, after one month of intensive study, 709 00:26:59,578 --> 00:27:02,198 then the next two months you work on a project 710 00:27:02,198 --> 00:27:03,538 on a real open source Bitcoin project. 711 00:27:03,538 --> 00:27:04,798 And this is like a full-time program? 712 00:27:05,438 --> 00:27:06,378 It's a full-time program. 713 00:27:06,378 --> 00:27:08,478 So it's someone who 714 00:27:08,478 --> 00:27:11,018 is ready, you're on the beach, 715 00:27:11,118 --> 00:27:13,098 you're ready to quit your job. You're pretty committed 716 00:27:13,098 --> 00:27:15,018 to, you're not just dipping your 717 00:27:15,018 --> 00:27:17,198 toes in the water, but you're committed to full-time 718 00:27:17,198 --> 00:27:19,178 and open-source 719 00:27:19,178 --> 00:27:19,858 Bitcoin software. 720 00:27:22,238 --> 00:27:23,038 Is it 721 00:27:23,038 --> 00:27:23,478 in-person? 722 00:27:25,078 --> 00:27:26,578 I'm not actually sure. 723 00:27:27,058 --> 00:27:28,918 Chaincode has definitely done in-person stuff 724 00:27:28,918 --> 00:27:30,558 before at Chaincode. 725 00:27:31,098 --> 00:27:32,218 But this might be 726 00:27:32,218 --> 00:27:34,958 remote. They might have some 727 00:27:34,958 --> 00:27:36,118 in-person component, but 728 00:27:36,378 --> 00:27:37,458 I think it's mostly remote. 729 00:27:37,458 --> 00:27:39,838 Okay, so this actually is an interesting segue 730 00:27:39,838 --> 00:27:42,398 towards a larger topic I wanted to bring up, 731 00:27:42,478 --> 00:27:44,098 but maybe we'll start with this 732 00:27:44,098 --> 00:27:45,538 since you're already mentioning boss. 733 00:27:46,218 --> 00:27:48,638 So I've been thinking over the break 734 00:27:48,638 --> 00:27:54,298 a lot more about AI scaling laws, 735 00:27:54,658 --> 00:27:55,598 AI software development. 736 00:27:55,698 --> 00:27:56,658 I have a lot of thoughts there 737 00:27:56,658 --> 00:27:58,338 and I want to get your views on all this. 738 00:27:58,778 --> 00:28:00,458 However, one area I want to start 739 00:28:00,458 --> 00:28:03,538 is I was discussing with someone a few weeks ago 740 00:28:03,538 --> 00:28:04,778 at the AI conference here 741 00:28:04,778 --> 00:28:08,538 about Bitcoin development itself. 742 00:28:08,958 --> 00:28:10,278 And he kind of raised a concern, 743 00:28:10,438 --> 00:28:11,558 and you're the closest to all this. 744 00:28:11,598 --> 00:28:13,198 I'm curious your view that, 745 00:28:13,798 --> 00:28:17,018 okay, to set the stage, 746 00:28:17,698 --> 00:28:19,658 AI is getting really good really fast. 747 00:28:20,098 --> 00:28:21,398 You know, every couple months you come back 748 00:28:21,398 --> 00:28:22,258 and you're like, holy shit, 749 00:28:22,318 --> 00:28:23,018 this thing's a lot better. 750 00:28:23,158 --> 00:28:24,978 There's like vibe coding got really good. 751 00:28:25,078 --> 00:28:26,458 And I'm sure we'll talk more about MDK 752 00:28:26,458 --> 00:28:27,418 and some stuff I saw yesterday, 753 00:28:27,558 --> 00:28:28,498 which blew my mind. 754 00:28:28,758 --> 00:28:29,838 But the TLDR is like, 755 00:28:30,438 --> 00:28:32,078 if you thought AI was bad six months ago 756 00:28:32,078 --> 00:28:33,278 or three months ago, try it again. 757 00:28:33,278 --> 00:28:36,118 it's just going to keep getting better and better and better. So like we're on this like 758 00:28:36,118 --> 00:28:42,418 exponential type curve. Now, what I am a little concerned about is you kind of have two camps of 759 00:28:42,418 --> 00:28:47,398 people in the world. I see you have the camp of people who get that and maybe they're super 760 00:28:47,398 --> 00:28:52,838 skilled developers and they're just like kind of like the Carpathie, like embrace the vibe coding, 761 00:28:53,118 --> 00:28:58,198 like let it fill you and go with it and you correct it. And then you've got, you know, 762 00:28:58,338 --> 00:29:01,818 total beginners who are awesome because they're just like, now they can do new things, like not 763 00:29:01,818 --> 00:29:05,978 total beginners, but someone like Matt Belez or DK are now coding crazy applications and stuff. 764 00:29:07,138 --> 00:29:11,938 But then you've got this other group, which are really skilled software developers from 765 00:29:11,938 --> 00:29:16,078 the old world. And I would consider these kind of like the, what are the Jewish dudes with the 766 00:29:16,078 --> 00:29:17,038 curls? Like the- 767 00:29:17,038 --> 00:29:17,818 Hasidic Jews? 768 00:29:17,878 --> 00:29:21,138 Yeah, kind of like the Hasidic, but like there's the Orthodox. 769 00:29:21,498 --> 00:29:21,658 Okay. 770 00:29:22,238 --> 00:29:29,478 And one concern I have that this person flagged for me is that a lot of Bitcoin core developers, 771 00:29:29,478 --> 00:29:32,118 or like a lot of the old Bitcoin core mindset. 772 00:29:32,278 --> 00:29:33,938 And I get why, because it's like the kind of thing 773 00:29:33,938 --> 00:29:35,858 where it's like nuclear submarine code level. 774 00:29:35,958 --> 00:29:37,058 You cannot have any bugs. 775 00:29:37,278 --> 00:29:38,518 You can't necessarily trust the eyes, 776 00:29:39,058 --> 00:29:40,558 but kind of raise the concern 777 00:29:40,558 --> 00:29:42,898 that a lot of these guys are very orthodox 778 00:29:42,898 --> 00:29:44,758 and like used to doing things like themselves. 779 00:29:45,538 --> 00:29:48,618 Now, as I see, you know, 780 00:29:48,798 --> 00:29:50,238 Anthropic just a couple of days ago 781 00:29:50,238 --> 00:29:51,938 released their coding agents 782 00:29:51,938 --> 00:29:53,178 or breaking smart contracts. 783 00:29:53,278 --> 00:29:55,038 Of course, it's Ethereum and Solana. 784 00:29:55,138 --> 00:29:55,938 So it's kind of like crap. 785 00:29:56,458 --> 00:29:59,058 But like, we're going to find a lot more bugs 786 00:29:59,058 --> 00:30:00,898 everywhere in the world that humans couldn't find. 787 00:30:00,958 --> 00:30:02,978 And if you really believe these exponential charts, 788 00:30:03,378 --> 00:30:05,138 then it's like, I don't think we're that far away 789 00:30:05,138 --> 00:30:07,538 from having AIs that are like far better than Greg Maxwell. 790 00:30:08,398 --> 00:30:10,998 And I use Greg Maxwell because I think of him 791 00:30:10,998 --> 00:30:13,138 as like the gold or the Bitcoin standard of developers. 792 00:30:13,198 --> 00:30:14,538 But the point is like, he's not AI. 793 00:30:15,678 --> 00:30:16,718 What is your view on that? 794 00:30:16,778 --> 00:30:19,578 Are you seeing, are there people in the Bitcoin core community 795 00:30:19,578 --> 00:30:21,558 that are like embracing it? 796 00:30:21,558 --> 00:30:22,978 Is it kind of an orthodox? 797 00:30:23,278 --> 00:30:24,738 Like, no, we don't believe in this thing 798 00:30:24,738 --> 00:30:25,578 because it could have bugs. 799 00:30:25,798 --> 00:30:28,278 Like, yeah, what's your view on that? 800 00:30:28,278 --> 00:30:50,438 Yeah, I think, yeah, a few thoughts. One is that I think there's a little bit more hesitancy from protocol developers and lower level software, partially because of just habits and the reasons you mentioned, but also the AI tools are not yet good enough for that type of software. 801 00:30:50,438 --> 00:30:54,698 I've seen it with my own team 802 00:30:54,698 --> 00:30:56,018 working on Lightning Development Kit 803 00:30:56,018 --> 00:30:57,698 which is also pretty low level 804 00:30:57,698 --> 00:30:59,118 protocol software 805 00:30:59,118 --> 00:31:02,158 and I've encouraged them and nudged them 806 00:31:02,158 --> 00:31:03,138 to look at these tools 807 00:31:03,138 --> 00:31:05,658 especially because they are improving 808 00:31:05,658 --> 00:31:07,258 every month 809 00:31:07,258 --> 00:31:10,358 so check in every three months at least 810 00:31:10,358 --> 00:31:12,278 and 811 00:31:12,278 --> 00:31:16,118 the only signs 812 00:31:16,118 --> 00:31:18,718 like Max Fang from Lexi 813 00:31:18,718 --> 00:31:20,238 has started to adopt 814 00:31:20,238 --> 00:31:22,058 Claude into his daily workflow 815 00:31:22,058 --> 00:31:23,998 and he works on software that's also pretty 816 00:31:23,998 --> 00:31:25,898 system-level, low-level software. 817 00:31:26,878 --> 00:31:28,138 So I think that's a good 818 00:31:28,138 --> 00:31:29,878 example of someone embracing it and 819 00:31:29,878 --> 00:31:31,778 working reasonably well. 820 00:31:31,938 --> 00:31:34,138 I don't think it's transformative. I think it's the kind 821 00:31:34,138 --> 00:31:36,178 of thing, it's like a 20% 822 00:31:36,178 --> 00:31:38,078 win kind of thing. Like, meaningful. 823 00:31:38,078 --> 00:31:39,998 Right. And he's 824 00:31:39,998 --> 00:31:41,958 positioned now to keep getting 825 00:31:41,958 --> 00:31:43,778 those gains as AI improves. 826 00:31:43,978 --> 00:31:45,838 That's what I like. So he's changed his behavior. 827 00:31:46,218 --> 00:31:47,738 So it's a very good investment. 828 00:31:48,218 --> 00:31:49,878 The win so far, though, I'd say is like 829 00:31:50,238 --> 00:31:52,078 nice but not game-changing. 830 00:31:53,118 --> 00:31:54,638 So I like to monitor 831 00:31:54,638 --> 00:31:55,938 that. 832 00:31:56,418 --> 00:31:58,458 But I don't think the tools 833 00:31:58,458 --> 00:31:59,498 are there yet to 834 00:31:59,498 --> 00:32:02,498 write low-level 835 00:32:02,498 --> 00:32:04,258 software code yet. 836 00:32:04,518 --> 00:32:06,418 But there's other applications, right? 837 00:32:06,718 --> 00:32:08,498 Obviously the vibe coding stuff, we've talked about that 838 00:32:08,498 --> 00:32:10,618 a lot in the show. But testing 839 00:32:10,618 --> 00:32:11,278 as well. 840 00:32:13,018 --> 00:32:14,198 Code review is another. 841 00:32:14,198 --> 00:32:16,158 And LND has turned on 842 00:32:16,158 --> 00:32:18,218 AI code review for LND. 843 00:32:18,218 --> 00:32:18,798 that's good 844 00:32:18,798 --> 00:32:20,678 LDK's turned it on 845 00:32:20,678 --> 00:32:21,398 a couple times 846 00:32:21,398 --> 00:32:21,738 and it 847 00:32:21,738 --> 00:32:22,878 the first time 848 00:32:22,878 --> 00:32:23,398 it just simply 849 00:32:23,398 --> 00:32:24,338 was not valuable 850 00:32:24,338 --> 00:32:24,678 when you say 851 00:32:24,678 --> 00:32:25,278 turned it on 852 00:32:25,278 --> 00:32:26,098 what does 853 00:32:26,098 --> 00:32:26,838 turned it on mean? 854 00:32:27,778 --> 00:32:28,258 you have a 855 00:32:28,258 --> 00:32:29,438 CI CD 856 00:32:29,438 --> 00:32:30,838 it's just 857 00:32:30,838 --> 00:32:32,438 no when you 858 00:32:32,438 --> 00:32:33,198 open a pull request 859 00:32:33,198 --> 00:32:33,598 it's just 860 00:32:33,598 --> 00:32:34,618 bot automatically 861 00:32:34,618 --> 00:32:35,178 reviews 862 00:32:35,178 --> 00:32:36,218 I mean AI bot 863 00:32:36,218 --> 00:32:37,098 automatically reviews 864 00:32:37,098 --> 00:32:37,498 the code 865 00:32:37,498 --> 00:32:39,258 and then 866 00:32:39,258 --> 00:32:40,398 writes up 867 00:32:40,398 --> 00:32:40,878 a review 868 00:32:40,878 --> 00:32:41,718 and posts it 869 00:32:41,718 --> 00:32:42,078 to GitHub 870 00:32:42,078 --> 00:32:43,178 so if that's a bunch 871 00:32:43,178 --> 00:32:43,598 of like 872 00:32:43,598 --> 00:32:44,838 AI slop 873 00:32:44,838 --> 00:32:45,398 and noisy 874 00:32:45,398 --> 00:32:46,598 it's 875 00:32:46,598 --> 00:32:47,518 it's a 876 00:32:47,518 --> 00:32:47,998 net 877 00:32:48,218 --> 00:32:55,678 negative and certainly that was the case the first go around um and and yeah lnds turned it on i you 878 00:32:55,678 --> 00:32:59,958 know so i think that's improving and it's very plausible that's going to go from net negative to 879 00:32:59,958 --> 00:33:07,018 a net a net win so that's code review um writing tests is another yeah application um now another 880 00:33:07,018 --> 00:33:16,118 thing to consider is like um code being submitted that either a human is presenting but it's actually 881 00:33:16,118 --> 00:33:19,918 done by AI or is it an anonymous account? 882 00:33:20,058 --> 00:33:20,438 It's an AI. 883 00:33:20,698 --> 00:33:22,338 And you don't know. 884 00:33:22,418 --> 00:33:26,518 You don't know who the identity is, who it is, but it's AI-generated code. 885 00:33:27,658 --> 00:33:33,858 There, there's a risk because it could, you know, it could have a bunch of like bugs or 886 00:33:33,858 --> 00:33:37,358 it could have backdoors hidden in it, et cetera. 887 00:33:37,698 --> 00:33:39,318 Now, that's true for anyone. 888 00:33:39,458 --> 00:33:40,038 That's true for humans too, right? 889 00:33:40,058 --> 00:33:41,118 That's true for anyone. 890 00:33:41,258 --> 00:33:45,798 Even if Greg Maxwell submits something, we have to assume like he could make a mistake. 891 00:33:45,798 --> 00:33:46,778 They got compromised or something. 892 00:33:46,778 --> 00:33:48,018 Yeah, compromised, whatever. 893 00:33:49,498 --> 00:33:51,598 But I just, so I think, 894 00:33:52,518 --> 00:33:54,818 so projects, another concern 895 00:33:54,818 --> 00:33:57,598 is like projects being inundated with PR requests. 896 00:33:57,678 --> 00:34:00,138 You can imagine just like thousands of PRs 897 00:34:00,138 --> 00:34:02,178 being generated automatically by AI 898 00:34:02,178 --> 00:34:04,598 and then like how do you sift through all of them? 899 00:34:04,798 --> 00:34:06,178 That's actually being dealt with right now 900 00:34:06,178 --> 00:34:09,738 for the BIPs, the Bitcoin improvement proposal. 901 00:34:12,378 --> 00:34:15,338 There's work being done on BIP3, I think it is, 902 00:34:15,338 --> 00:34:19,558 to improve the process, or like an iteration of the process for BIPs. 903 00:34:19,758 --> 00:34:19,959 Yeah. 904 00:34:20,439 --> 00:34:25,518 And there's debate and controversy over should BIPs be, 905 00:34:25,698 --> 00:34:29,498 should LLMs be allowed to be used for BIPs? 906 00:34:30,658 --> 00:34:34,498 And I hope we don't go like Hasidic, like just get destroyed. 907 00:34:34,818 --> 00:34:36,798 So that's dangerous. 908 00:34:36,798 --> 00:34:42,538 There's some people, so the concern by not using it, 909 00:34:42,538 --> 00:34:52,038 Is it the work imposed on the BIP editors to review potentially an insane amount of content that was just AI slop? 910 00:34:52,798 --> 00:34:57,459 But obviously there's a contingent saying like, we need to embrace tools that improve. 911 00:34:58,118 --> 00:34:59,439 And also, to what degree? 912 00:34:59,598 --> 00:35:05,058 Like if I write a BIP and then have an LLM review it and tweak the language, is that prohibited? 913 00:35:05,538 --> 00:35:06,898 I mean, that's a whole debate going on. 914 00:35:06,898 --> 00:35:29,518 Also, there's sort of, I want to at least raise a distinction and see if my understanding is consistent with your experience here. But like, my understanding is, in Bitcoin development, the ideas are more of the challenge than the implementation. Like the software writing is not that hard compared to coming up with the right ideas and getting consensus on the ideas. 915 00:35:29,518 --> 00:35:38,338 I agree with that, except changing the code and the Bitcoin Core codebase, Satoshi's codebase, is fraught with danger. 916 00:35:38,459 --> 00:35:39,078 I mean, it's C++. 917 00:35:39,698 --> 00:35:40,058 I see. 918 00:35:40,419 --> 00:35:45,858 It was not super well written by Satoshi and it's just been a patchwork ever since then. 919 00:35:46,439 --> 00:35:53,398 With a long-term trend of trying to make more maintainable code, better organized code. 920 00:35:53,398 --> 00:35:55,658 but you know 921 00:35:55,658 --> 00:35:56,978 what was it like 922 00:35:56,978 --> 00:35:59,718 2021 or so 923 00:35:59,718 --> 00:36:01,518 maybe four or five years ago there was the 924 00:36:01,518 --> 00:36:03,178 inflation bug that 925 00:36:03,178 --> 00:36:06,038 several prominent core developers 926 00:36:06,038 --> 00:36:07,638 wrote and reviewed it 927 00:36:07,638 --> 00:36:09,459 so I mean if we were to 928 00:36:09,459 --> 00:36:11,318 select the three best people to be 929 00:36:11,318 --> 00:36:13,459 looking at it it would be those three people 930 00:36:13,459 --> 00:36:15,919 and yet an inflation bug was introduced 931 00:36:15,919 --> 00:36:17,838 only to be 932 00:36:17,838 --> 00:36:19,778 caught by a BCH developer who 933 00:36:19,778 --> 00:36:21,939 really responsibly 934 00:36:21,939 --> 00:36:22,998 disclosed it so 935 00:36:22,998 --> 00:36:52,978 Oh, man. 936 00:36:52,998 --> 00:36:54,998 already can deliver value 937 00:36:54,998 --> 00:36:56,758 and will just continue to deliver value. 938 00:36:57,358 --> 00:36:58,358 So that seems to me, 939 00:36:58,419 --> 00:36:59,078 as we think about, 940 00:36:59,178 --> 00:37:00,318 I know a question we have is like, 941 00:37:00,439 --> 00:37:02,138 how sort of percent of Bitcoin 942 00:37:02,138 --> 00:37:04,078 is going to embrace AI going to the future 943 00:37:04,078 --> 00:37:05,878 and potentially sponsor decentralized AI and stuff. 944 00:37:06,238 --> 00:37:08,278 This to me seems like very low-hanging fruit 945 00:37:08,278 --> 00:37:11,278 where if there's not already a contingent, 946 00:37:11,638 --> 00:37:13,338 like what I would love to see is 947 00:37:13,338 --> 00:37:15,338 that there are a contingent of competent, 948 00:37:15,538 --> 00:37:16,718 really good Bitcoin developers 949 00:37:16,718 --> 00:37:18,939 who are also at least open 950 00:37:18,939 --> 00:37:20,459 to the possibility of being AGI built. 951 00:37:20,618 --> 00:37:21,518 Lalo is a great example. 952 00:37:21,518 --> 00:37:23,638 And I actually think it's super important. 953 00:37:24,058 --> 00:37:25,798 I mean, Lalu has a couple of things going for him. 954 00:37:25,878 --> 00:37:26,798 One, he's young. 955 00:37:27,298 --> 00:37:28,419 Two, he's here. 956 00:37:28,838 --> 00:37:30,558 And I honestly believe it makes a difference 957 00:37:30,558 --> 00:37:31,598 whether you're in San Francisco or not. 958 00:37:31,618 --> 00:37:32,158 I really do. 959 00:37:32,298 --> 00:37:34,358 Like, I talk to people outside the rest of the world. 960 00:37:34,439 --> 00:37:35,798 If they're not saying they're talking to their friends 961 00:37:35,798 --> 00:37:37,018 from Anthropik and other parties, 962 00:37:37,058 --> 00:37:38,939 like they don't see how fast this is going. 963 00:37:39,498 --> 00:37:41,098 And I'm not saying it has to be, right? 964 00:37:41,118 --> 00:37:43,138 Like, I know it's always gonna have a skeptical mindset, 965 00:37:43,598 --> 00:37:46,258 but my fear is if we end up with only the old heads 966 00:37:46,258 --> 00:37:49,439 that don't see this coming, that's like a big risk to me. 967 00:37:49,439 --> 00:38:04,558 And so whether that's sponsoring people that are 100% their whole job is like, we're going to try and attack Bitcoin Core in a responsible way with LLMs, whatever, testing, like finding exploits, that seems like super high value. 968 00:38:04,919 --> 00:38:05,358 Agreed. 969 00:38:05,498 --> 00:38:10,038 So anyone listening that wants to do that or know someone, like Spiral, absolutely give grants for that. 970 00:38:10,038 --> 00:38:18,959 And I forget if we mentioned this in the show or not, but when I was in Berlin in October, met up with Felix Weiss, who's a longtime developer in the Bitcoin space. 971 00:38:19,439 --> 00:38:26,038 And he was eager to show me this demo, and he's never been eager to show me a demo before, and I'm glad he showed me the demo. 972 00:38:27,358 --> 00:38:36,718 I don't think we, I intended to talk about it on the show, I don't think I have yet, but he used Claude for like three months to write a Bitcoin implementation from scratch. 973 00:38:36,718 --> 00:38:41,018 So not like building on core or something, or he didn't fork the core code. 974 00:38:41,098 --> 00:38:53,198 He wrote a Bitcoin implementation from scratch, which could sync, do an IBD, initial block download, which takes maybe like five, six hours using core in like 10 minutes. 975 00:38:53,998 --> 00:38:56,698 So he used a different approach. 976 00:38:56,838 --> 00:38:58,798 Because he's pulling blocks from more nodes? 977 00:38:58,798 --> 00:39:05,098 He just used a different, he just used, I mean, there's a little bit of, there are trade-offs compared to the way core does it. 978 00:39:05,098 --> 00:39:07,818 but it's an interesting approach. 979 00:39:08,798 --> 00:39:11,959 I think it's similar to the LibBitcoin approach, 980 00:39:12,038 --> 00:39:14,338 which is another long-time implementation of Bitcoin. 981 00:39:15,058 --> 00:39:16,818 But what I find fascinating about it is, 982 00:39:17,058 --> 00:39:21,478 he had an idea that he wanted to see in action. 983 00:39:21,638 --> 00:39:24,058 Instead of whining and crying that core is corrupt 984 00:39:24,058 --> 00:39:27,738 or core moves slow or they don't embrace change. 985 00:39:27,878 --> 00:39:28,338 He just made his own. 986 00:39:28,478 --> 00:39:29,978 He just made his own. 987 00:39:30,638 --> 00:39:33,298 He also is not threatening forks or anything like that. 988 00:39:33,298 --> 00:39:36,439 He just built his own, leveraged LLM. 989 00:39:37,018 --> 00:39:41,398 He's the first to say there's no way he could have done this without Cloud. 990 00:39:41,598 --> 00:39:42,578 He had to use Cloud. 991 00:39:42,919 --> 00:39:46,919 So embrace the technology, use Cloud, has a working demo, 992 00:39:47,378 --> 00:39:49,658 and has real metrics and numbers behind it. 993 00:39:49,959 --> 00:39:53,439 And I think that, you know, so are people going to flock to that implementation? 994 00:39:53,658 --> 00:39:56,638 No, but it's a really good communication and persuasive tool. 995 00:39:56,758 --> 00:39:59,298 Now he can publish this and share it with people 996 00:39:59,298 --> 00:40:01,198 and share it with the core project, share it with others, 997 00:40:01,198 --> 00:40:04,478 saying like, hey, I tested this result. 998 00:40:04,718 --> 00:40:06,658 Here's what I got. 999 00:40:07,158 --> 00:40:09,959 And perhaps Core will add that one day. 1000 00:40:10,198 --> 00:40:12,218 Yeah, and we have some interesting comments. 1001 00:40:12,338 --> 00:40:13,358 Vinny here is saying, 1002 00:40:13,798 --> 00:40:15,598 it's hard for good devs to trust junior devs. 1003 00:40:15,698 --> 00:40:17,038 Luckily, but we have another six months 1004 00:40:17,038 --> 00:40:17,959 will be better than us anyway. 1005 00:40:18,138 --> 00:40:19,118 All vibes all the time. 1006 00:40:19,358 --> 00:40:21,459 And I think that if I have like one message 1007 00:40:21,459 --> 00:40:23,998 in thinking through funding people to do this stuff 1008 00:40:23,998 --> 00:40:25,278 or like old, you know, 1009 00:40:25,298 --> 00:40:27,098 people that are used to the old ways, 1010 00:40:27,459 --> 00:40:29,518 it's like, yes, maybe they're not there today. 1011 00:40:29,518 --> 00:40:31,598 and like the 20% win is maybe like whatever. 1012 00:40:31,758 --> 00:40:33,378 Or maybe you don't even like the 20% win, 1013 00:40:33,439 --> 00:40:34,318 you'd rather do things by hand. 1014 00:40:34,798 --> 00:40:38,218 But the risk, I think the biggest risk right now 1015 00:40:38,218 --> 00:40:41,258 is if you ignore it and you miss. 1016 00:40:41,919 --> 00:40:43,038 And like, to your point, 1017 00:40:43,218 --> 00:40:45,578 we're about to be flooded with pull requests 1018 00:40:45,578 --> 00:40:46,758 and information from AIs. 1019 00:40:46,858 --> 00:40:49,538 The only way to defend against that is with AI. 1020 00:40:50,218 --> 00:40:52,479 Like I'm 100% convinced if human, 1021 00:40:52,618 --> 00:40:53,419 it's going to be like, 1022 00:40:53,919 --> 00:40:54,758 I don't even know what the example, 1023 00:40:54,758 --> 00:40:57,078 like bringing sticks to a fight with nuclear weapons 1024 00:40:57,078 --> 00:40:57,939 if you're not equipped. 1025 00:40:57,939 --> 00:41:04,598 so i am i don't know i'm increasingly concerned about that i'm glad to hear hearing lalu is on 1026 00:41:04,598 --> 00:41:08,718 top of it makes me like very happy and i think it's something we can also push more for being 1027 00:41:08,718 --> 00:41:14,158 here in san francisco continuing to build a bridge between the item and bitcoin but what was it elix 1028 00:41:14,158 --> 00:41:19,718 was the guy you mentioned yeah do you know if he do you know sort of what process he used to do that 1029 00:41:19,718 --> 00:41:25,419 because i it would not surprise me if there's like if you tried to not implement it and instead 1030 00:41:25,419 --> 00:41:30,858 just get an LLM to understand what Bitcoin is without an implementation. 1031 00:41:31,198 --> 00:41:36,338 I wonder if it could help us think about it in a better way or sort of get, I think there's 1032 00:41:36,338 --> 00:41:42,638 a lot of just, you know, sort of anecdotally transmitted culture pieces of Bitcoin that 1033 00:41:42,638 --> 00:41:44,238 maybe don't exist in the code base. 1034 00:41:44,598 --> 00:41:49,238 And if we could create a little bit of like an AI thinking model about what is Bitcoin 1035 00:41:49,238 --> 00:41:54,618 and what's the purpose and what are the edges on it, then we can take that as an evolving 1036 00:41:54,618 --> 00:41:57,538 thing and maybe build different implementations out of it. 1037 00:41:58,479 --> 00:42:00,298 And I wonder if we got a really good version of that. 1038 00:42:01,038 --> 00:42:05,078 Do you know that from AlphaGo, I think it's Move 37 or something? 1039 00:42:05,258 --> 00:42:05,838 Do you know that one? 1040 00:42:05,959 --> 00:42:06,338 Yeah, of course. 1041 00:42:06,878 --> 00:42:11,038 I wonder if there's like a Move 37 in a Bitcoin implementation. 1042 00:42:11,178 --> 00:42:11,598 There will be. 1043 00:42:12,118 --> 00:42:18,038 And if we can sort of get an AI to understand what our principles are that we're trying 1044 00:42:18,038 --> 00:42:19,939 to achieve, sort of independent of 1045 00:42:19,939 --> 00:42:21,758 the implementation, 1046 00:42:22,378 --> 00:42:23,818 how, you know, if we could 1047 00:42:23,818 --> 00:42:25,979 do that, and I wonder if his Felix, 1048 00:42:26,218 --> 00:42:28,018 you know, if he explored any of that. 1049 00:42:28,338 --> 00:42:29,358 I don't know. 1050 00:42:31,038 --> 00:42:31,598 I mean, 1051 00:42:31,718 --> 00:42:33,898 Danny says something similar. He says you can also use 1052 00:42:33,898 --> 00:42:35,378 it to come up with seemingly 1053 00:42:35,378 --> 00:42:37,878 impossible new ideas. I think 1054 00:42:37,878 --> 00:42:39,998 that's exactly what you're saying. It's just like 1055 00:42:39,998 --> 00:42:41,238 move 37 for everything. 1056 00:42:41,558 --> 00:42:43,939 Yeah, so I don't know any more 1057 00:42:43,939 --> 00:42:45,618 details about this process. 1058 00:42:46,198 --> 00:42:47,398 I'll ask him though. 1059 00:42:48,038 --> 00:42:54,138 I'll point him to this show that we talked a little bit about his good work, and maybe he'll share. 1060 00:42:55,419 --> 00:43:02,578 I know he presented this at a conference in the Middle East one or two months ago, 1061 00:43:02,578 --> 00:43:10,258 but I think he intends to do a more formal announcement of the project as well, and he should share his process more. 1062 00:43:10,959 --> 00:43:15,738 Outside of Bitcoin Core, something else I've been thinking a little bit about is Drew Bansel talked about this idea 1063 00:43:15,738 --> 00:43:18,038 that I don't think he was thinking with AI, 1064 00:43:18,158 --> 00:43:19,479 but I think it accelerates his idea 1065 00:43:19,479 --> 00:43:21,479 that basically you're going to have 1066 00:43:21,479 --> 00:43:24,318 all internet services re-architected 1067 00:43:24,318 --> 00:43:26,058 in the next 10, 20 years, whatever, 1068 00:43:26,538 --> 00:43:29,798 because basically AI is going to get so good at hacking 1069 00:43:29,798 --> 00:43:31,998 that all these exploits we can't even imagine 1070 00:43:31,998 --> 00:43:32,878 now are going to get found. 1071 00:43:33,538 --> 00:43:35,939 And wherever there's like Bitcoin being secured, 1072 00:43:36,098 --> 00:43:37,278 that's like what it's going to go after. 1073 00:43:37,718 --> 00:43:38,959 And so I think very quickly, 1074 00:43:38,959 --> 00:43:42,178 that's like probably where the self-referential AI 1075 00:43:42,178 --> 00:43:43,218 sadly starts. 1076 00:43:43,459 --> 00:43:45,318 I wish it were something sort of pro-social, 1077 00:43:45,318 --> 00:43:49,258 but it's probably just hacking and you know phishing is like the lowest level but it's 1078 00:43:49,258 --> 00:43:55,018 going to get better and better and better and so i think drew's point was um basically it's going 1079 00:43:55,018 --> 00:44:00,298 to be a part of evolution where the sort of reward function is like can i get more bitcoin 1080 00:44:00,298 --> 00:44:04,998 and in doing that that's how we're going to harden all of our systems but in the meantime that would 1081 00:44:04,998 --> 00:44:12,558 suck you know if you were part of the the the testing phase of evolution so i don't know i think 1082 00:44:12,558 --> 00:44:14,518 the thing I'm just getting more and more concerned about is 1083 00:44:14,518 --> 00:44:16,558 like we have a giant blind spot with 1084 00:44:16,558 --> 00:44:18,678 how good AI gets the next even two to three years. 1085 00:44:18,919 --> 00:44:20,678 Which is why I'm surprised you push 1086 00:44:20,678 --> 00:44:22,058 for moving your coins to 1087 00:44:22,058 --> 00:44:24,498 instead of having it written on 1088 00:44:24,498 --> 00:44:26,479 like a physical piece of paper. I was thinking the same 1089 00:44:26,479 --> 00:44:26,998 thing. Yeah. 1090 00:44:28,419 --> 00:44:30,398 Because definitely having something in the 1091 00:44:30,398 --> 00:44:32,758 physical world is the defense against 1092 00:44:32,758 --> 00:44:34,298 remote attacks, 1093 00:44:34,459 --> 00:44:36,238 AI. Generated offline, 1094 00:44:36,778 --> 00:44:38,078 right? This sort of like, 1095 00:44:38,518 --> 00:44:40,498 yeah. Like if it's never connected to the 1096 00:44:40,498 --> 00:44:42,238 internet, then the AI is 1097 00:44:42,238 --> 00:44:43,638 presumably can't access it. 1098 00:44:43,778 --> 00:44:44,838 Yeah, but then it's like 1099 00:44:44,838 --> 00:44:45,798 the fucking wrench attack 1100 00:44:45,798 --> 00:44:46,878 is getting more realistic too. 1101 00:44:46,979 --> 00:44:47,298 I don't know. 1102 00:44:47,439 --> 00:44:47,758 Like, look, 1103 00:44:48,258 --> 00:44:50,878 I think the risk of remote attack, 1104 00:44:51,018 --> 00:44:52,338 traditional remote attacks 1105 00:44:52,338 --> 00:44:54,378 and AI ones is like 1106 00:44:54,378 --> 00:44:57,818 10,000x higher probability 1107 00:44:57,818 --> 00:44:58,578 than wrench attacks. 1108 00:44:58,598 --> 00:44:59,959 And look, I think we talked about 1109 00:44:59,959 --> 00:45:00,838 custody on shows before. 1110 00:45:00,919 --> 00:45:01,618 I think the answer is 1111 00:45:01,618 --> 00:45:02,778 don't put all your eggs in one basket. 1112 00:45:02,898 --> 00:45:03,598 We've talked about that. 1113 00:45:03,858 --> 00:45:04,738 But like, increasingly, 1114 00:45:04,939 --> 00:45:05,898 as much as I hate to say this, 1115 00:45:05,979 --> 00:45:07,118 like, I do like things like 1116 00:45:07,118 --> 00:45:09,258 River, ETFs, block. 1117 00:45:09,398 --> 00:45:10,538 And like, yeah, they're not perfect. 1118 00:45:10,538 --> 00:45:11,479 but like 1119 00:45:11,479 --> 00:45:12,758 I don't know man 1120 00:45:12,758 --> 00:45:13,098 like 1121 00:45:13,098 --> 00:45:14,518 I trust 1122 00:45:14,518 --> 00:45:15,678 that 1123 00:45:15,678 --> 00:45:16,818 Jack understands 1124 00:45:16,818 --> 00:45:17,578 what's happening with AI 1125 00:45:17,578 --> 00:45:18,959 and he's not asleep 1126 00:45:18,959 --> 00:45:19,338 at the wheel 1127 00:45:19,338 --> 00:45:20,278 and there's going to be 1128 00:45:20,278 --> 00:45:20,898 people there 1129 00:45:20,898 --> 00:45:21,698 that are thinking about 1130 00:45:21,698 --> 00:45:22,419 how to secure 1131 00:45:22,419 --> 00:45:23,658 Bitcoin at Block 1132 00:45:23,658 --> 00:45:24,858 better than me 1133 00:45:24,858 --> 00:45:26,058 he uses BitKey 1134 00:45:26,058 --> 00:45:28,498 but I mean 1135 00:45:28,498 --> 00:45:28,939 you get my point 1136 00:45:28,939 --> 00:45:29,518 but I think 1137 00:45:29,518 --> 00:45:30,698 one thing we all agree on 1138 00:45:30,698 --> 00:45:31,419 and when we did the 1139 00:45:31,419 --> 00:45:32,318 episode in January 1140 00:45:32,318 --> 00:45:33,318 where we dedicated 1141 00:45:33,318 --> 00:45:34,178 the whole episode to it 1142 00:45:34,178 --> 00:45:34,939 I think we all agreed 1143 00:45:34,939 --> 00:45:35,838 on one thing 1144 00:45:35,838 --> 00:45:36,378 which is 1145 00:45:36,378 --> 00:45:38,178 custody diversification 1146 00:45:38,178 --> 00:45:39,338 makes tremendous sense 1147 00:45:39,338 --> 00:45:39,658 yeah 1148 00:45:39,658 --> 00:45:40,459 because the 1149 00:45:40,538 --> 00:45:47,558 types of threats and loss of coin risk with self-custody versus a third-party custodian, 1150 00:45:47,658 --> 00:45:54,098 they're very orthogonal. And they're all legitimate risks. So put the 50-50 or whatever 1151 00:45:54,098 --> 00:45:59,038 split you want to do makes a lot of sense. And you can, if you believe that like ETFs are not 1152 00:45:59,038 --> 00:46:04,658 subject to rent-to-tax, which I believe they're mostly not, I've explained my thinking there, 1153 00:46:04,758 --> 00:46:08,439 and I think we have agreement on that. If you believe that ETFs are not subject to rent-to-tax, 1154 00:46:08,439 --> 00:46:11,238 you can get self-custody of Bitcoin and multi-sig 1155 00:46:11,238 --> 00:46:14,098 that is subject to no wrench attacks 1156 00:46:14,098 --> 00:46:15,738 in the same sense that the apps are not. 1157 00:46:15,919 --> 00:46:18,618 And maybe, you know, I could see all of this 1158 00:46:18,618 --> 00:46:20,698 being a big boon for companies like Unchained. 1159 00:46:21,038 --> 00:46:22,459 Because Unchained, you know, has built a good business, 1160 00:46:22,578 --> 00:46:23,998 but it hasn't, like, skyrocketed. 1161 00:46:24,038 --> 00:46:26,558 But maybe this whole AI thing is what causes that to happen. 1162 00:46:27,479 --> 00:46:29,018 I do think just in general, I'm like, 1163 00:46:29,979 --> 00:46:34,198 I do think, you know, I always try and update my thinking, 1164 00:46:34,358 --> 00:46:35,939 like, okay, like, we all believe in Bitcoin, 1165 00:46:36,078 --> 00:46:36,878 but, like, things change. 1166 00:46:36,878 --> 00:46:40,118 and you know as I see the market movement we had a show on the market like who knows what 1167 00:46:40,118 --> 00:46:43,838 happened short term but like talked about quantum risk a lot there's stuff there that I'm still not 1168 00:46:43,838 --> 00:46:47,998 fully comfortable with getting doing my own education on that but I do think that like 1169 00:46:47,998 --> 00:46:55,018 AI hacking risks are like a new category that I have not taken seriously enough yet and I think 1170 00:46:55,018 --> 00:47:01,498 that everyone should be thinking more about that yep agreed and didn't didn't Sundar I thought as 1171 00:47:01,498 --> 00:47:02,038 I saw a headline. 1172 00:47:02,198 --> 00:47:04,939 Did he say five years for quantum? 1173 00:47:05,618 --> 00:47:06,158 I mean, yeah. 1174 00:47:08,318 --> 00:47:09,459 I'm also in the camp. 1175 00:47:09,618 --> 00:47:11,738 And this is, again, this is my left side of the curve. 1176 00:47:12,338 --> 00:47:15,459 But I'm always concerned because whenever I hear these kind of old-ed guys, 1177 00:47:15,598 --> 00:47:17,598 like, no, it's like, they're usually wrong. 1178 00:47:18,138 --> 00:47:22,398 And when you think about the quantum development with AI, 1179 00:47:22,518 --> 00:47:26,098 I think one thing that everyone is under-appreciating, 1180 00:47:26,098 --> 00:47:28,778 I'm not saying it's definite, but probability distribution, 1181 00:47:28,778 --> 00:47:43,477 certainly not zero is that AI accelerates the development of so many things including quantum I think that one of the giant black ones All technologies compound on each other right Exactly And most people fail to see that They like well actually If someone says well actually run 1182 00:47:43,477 --> 00:47:44,057 It's the worst, yeah. 1183 00:47:44,177 --> 00:47:44,437 Run. 1184 00:47:44,937 --> 00:47:47,517 Anyway, I said my piece on quantum last episode. 1185 00:47:48,437 --> 00:47:51,977 But a segue to one thing I did last night. 1186 00:47:53,497 --> 00:47:57,197 Block hosted like a dozen merchants or sellers 1187 00:47:57,197 --> 00:47:59,557 to come to the Block office in the mission. 1188 00:47:59,557 --> 00:48:01,897 so Haley and I went to 1189 00:48:01,897 --> 00:48:03,577 meet with them 1190 00:48:03,577 --> 00:48:05,897 and orange pill them, get them to 1191 00:48:05,897 --> 00:48:08,017 enable Bitcoin payments. It's a really good 1192 00:48:08,017 --> 00:48:09,977 experience. But interestingly 1193 00:48:09,977 --> 00:48:11,997 the segue here is 1194 00:48:11,997 --> 00:48:13,017 that one of them 1195 00:48:13,017 --> 00:48:15,557 I asked, what do you know about Bitcoin? 1196 00:48:15,757 --> 00:48:17,817 And the first thing out of her mouth was 1197 00:48:17,817 --> 00:48:19,517 quantum. And it was just 1198 00:48:19,517 --> 00:48:21,437 this is like a 1199 00:48:21,437 --> 00:48:25,957 sole proprietor 1200 00:48:25,957 --> 00:48:27,177 in Oakland selling 1201 00:48:27,177 --> 00:48:29,277 art she makes or whatever. 1202 00:48:29,557 --> 00:48:31,657 and she doesn't know hardly anything about Bitcoin. 1203 00:48:31,777 --> 00:48:32,817 So I just found it fascinating 1204 00:48:32,817 --> 00:48:35,477 that the first thing out of her mouth 1205 00:48:35,477 --> 00:48:38,637 on what is Bitcoin or what about it is quantum. 1206 00:48:39,757 --> 00:48:41,117 And she didn't say it in like a, 1207 00:48:41,897 --> 00:48:43,397 she didn't view it as a risk. 1208 00:48:43,577 --> 00:48:45,337 It's more, I think it's like fascinating, 1209 00:48:45,777 --> 00:48:48,137 exciting technology was her perspective on it. 1210 00:48:48,557 --> 00:48:49,157 And she just associated. 1211 00:48:49,457 --> 00:48:49,817 That's what quantum was. 1212 00:48:50,217 --> 00:48:51,577 And Bitcoin, you know, 1213 00:48:51,617 --> 00:48:53,297 Bitcoin's exciting technology, 1214 00:48:53,477 --> 00:48:54,577 quantum's exciting technology. 1215 00:48:54,737 --> 00:48:56,077 And she probably read an article 1216 00:48:56,077 --> 00:48:58,757 or read a headline where the two were together, right? 1217 00:48:58,757 --> 00:49:00,397 So I just found that fascinating. 1218 00:49:00,797 --> 00:49:03,877 That's like top of mind for just normal human being. 1219 00:49:05,257 --> 00:49:07,337 But not a negative association necessarily. 1220 00:49:07,677 --> 00:49:10,297 But anyway, that event was awesome. 1221 00:49:10,717 --> 00:49:15,057 We onboarded six merchants onto Bitcoin. 1222 00:49:16,137 --> 00:49:18,557 And these are merchants who they didn't know about it 1223 00:49:18,557 --> 00:49:19,657 or hadn't configured it? 1224 00:49:19,717 --> 00:49:21,837 What was sort of selection criteria for getting them together? 1225 00:49:23,157 --> 00:49:26,057 Yeah, getting them to come to Block had nothing to do with Bitcoin. 1226 00:49:26,057 --> 00:49:29,177 It was just a square event. 1227 00:49:30,737 --> 00:49:36,297 And I think we had done some outreach at a time to the 12 1228 00:49:36,297 --> 00:49:39,737 to identify anyone interested in Bitcoin. 1229 00:49:40,137 --> 00:49:42,977 Anyway, six of them enabled it. 1230 00:49:43,017 --> 00:49:45,677 There were a couple of merchants that didn't want to. 1231 00:49:46,197 --> 00:49:47,797 So that's actually good learning, too. 1232 00:49:47,877 --> 00:49:50,997 Because at the end of the day, it's a no-brainer to enable it. 1233 00:49:51,077 --> 00:49:53,257 Because there's no cost to doing so. 1234 00:49:53,257 --> 00:49:56,677 because you can configure it so that your sales get converted to dollars. 1235 00:49:56,917 --> 00:49:58,737 So if you don't want to hold Bitcoin, 1236 00:49:58,897 --> 00:50:02,217 you don't want any tax questions or whatever, risk, 1237 00:50:02,797 --> 00:50:05,657 like there's no reason to not enable it, right? 1238 00:50:05,857 --> 00:50:10,337 You don't have to display the itty-bitty if that's not your jam or whatever, right? 1239 00:50:11,377 --> 00:50:12,597 So would that not be their jam? 1240 00:50:13,517 --> 00:50:16,817 But I was curious, you know, why not? 1241 00:50:16,937 --> 00:50:19,757 And one of them at least, you know, they had reasonable reasons. 1242 00:50:19,757 --> 00:50:21,737 One, they're already experimenting 1243 00:50:21,737 --> 00:50:23,417 with a couple new features from Square 1244 00:50:23,417 --> 00:50:25,737 and they're just like, you know, slow down. 1245 00:50:25,937 --> 00:50:27,717 Like, I can only handle so many experiments 1246 00:50:27,717 --> 00:50:28,397 at once or whatever. 1247 00:50:28,997 --> 00:50:31,877 So that's a completely reasonable 1248 00:50:31,877 --> 00:50:32,877 answer, right? 1249 00:50:33,337 --> 00:50:35,937 The other answer was kind of interesting. 1250 00:50:36,217 --> 00:50:37,137 They said they had 1251 00:50:37,137 --> 00:50:39,637 like an older clientele and it might 1252 00:50:39,637 --> 00:50:41,917 turn them off if they accepted 1253 00:50:41,917 --> 00:50:44,037 Bitcoin. Like, they didn't really realize 1254 00:50:44,037 --> 00:50:45,557 that they don't have 1255 00:50:45,557 --> 00:50:47,597 to promote it. 1256 00:50:47,597 --> 00:50:49,417 Right. Or, you know, they don't have to make it 1257 00:50:49,757 --> 00:50:52,217 they don't have to market it to every one of their customers. 1258 00:50:52,557 --> 00:50:56,197 But it'd be visible on the POS while the consumer is using it or no? 1259 00:50:56,437 --> 00:50:56,697 No. 1260 00:50:57,337 --> 00:50:57,477 No. 1261 00:50:58,477 --> 00:51:00,017 Yeah, I mean, you have to go out of your... 1262 00:51:00,017 --> 00:51:00,957 They may have the sticker. 1263 00:51:02,037 --> 00:51:03,177 Well, they don't have to do that, right? 1264 00:51:03,257 --> 00:51:04,997 So if you do the sticker, if you do the itty-bitty, 1265 00:51:05,597 --> 00:51:07,177 if you do any kind of promotions, 1266 00:51:07,957 --> 00:51:11,377 which is important for creating awareness of it and promoting it, 1267 00:51:11,677 --> 00:51:13,937 then obviously all your customers would know. 1268 00:51:14,637 --> 00:51:15,977 You don't have to do that, though. 1269 00:51:16,057 --> 00:51:19,097 But I think the most interesting thing is they just had that perception. 1270 00:51:19,097 --> 00:51:21,437 or not as much perception, 1271 00:51:21,617 --> 00:51:23,797 but that was on their mind 1272 00:51:23,797 --> 00:51:24,857 and a factor for them. 1273 00:51:25,817 --> 00:51:26,737 Having said that, 1274 00:51:26,797 --> 00:51:27,637 the six that converted, 1275 00:51:28,677 --> 00:51:31,897 all six were very enthusiastic 1276 00:51:31,897 --> 00:51:33,357 about doing so. 1277 00:51:33,877 --> 00:51:34,957 None of them were savvy 1278 00:51:34,957 --> 00:51:36,957 or super knowledgeable about Bitcoin, 1279 00:51:37,117 --> 00:51:39,357 but definitely their perception 1280 00:51:39,357 --> 00:51:39,677 was like, 1281 00:51:39,757 --> 00:51:40,657 Bitcoin's cool, 1282 00:51:40,817 --> 00:51:41,917 it's a positive thing, 1283 00:51:42,077 --> 00:51:43,097 it's exciting. 1284 00:51:43,997 --> 00:51:45,257 And all of them, 1285 00:51:45,457 --> 00:51:46,177 like Haley and I made sure 1286 00:51:46,177 --> 00:51:47,977 we purchased something from them 1287 00:51:47,977 --> 00:51:48,397 in Bitcoin, 1288 00:51:48,397 --> 00:51:49,817 and they were so excited. 1289 00:51:50,017 --> 00:51:50,097 Really? 1290 00:51:50,177 --> 00:51:53,377 Also, all of them chose to keep it in Bitcoin. 1291 00:51:53,537 --> 00:51:53,737 Really? 1292 00:51:53,917 --> 00:51:54,157 Oh, wow. 1293 00:51:54,317 --> 00:51:54,497 Nice. 1294 00:51:54,497 --> 00:51:56,077 They were all very, they're like, how do I see it? 1295 00:51:56,077 --> 00:51:56,357 All of it? 1296 00:51:56,957 --> 00:51:57,137 Yeah. 1297 00:51:57,517 --> 00:51:58,017 100% of it. 1298 00:51:58,217 --> 00:52:00,737 And they all wanted to know, like, how do I see it? 1299 00:52:00,797 --> 00:52:02,877 So then we like navigated them to the wallet. 1300 00:52:04,217 --> 00:52:08,317 And we, Square UI, there's some areas of improvement 1301 00:52:08,317 --> 00:52:09,057 with Square UI. 1302 00:52:09,497 --> 00:52:11,017 And there's also many Square UIs. 1303 00:52:11,217 --> 00:52:11,977 That's one thing I've learned. 1304 00:52:12,157 --> 00:52:13,597 There's five different apps in the App Store. 1305 00:52:13,597 --> 00:52:13,917 Yeah. 1306 00:52:14,237 --> 00:52:17,637 And then there's like many different hardware options available. 1307 00:52:17,637 --> 00:52:20,617 and there's different UIs across all these. 1308 00:52:21,197 --> 00:52:22,477 So Haley and I learned a ton. 1309 00:52:22,937 --> 00:52:25,877 Shout out to Angela, who's the PM on Square, 1310 00:52:26,097 --> 00:52:26,957 who worked on this. 1311 00:52:27,217 --> 00:52:28,397 She showed up too. 1312 00:52:28,497 --> 00:52:29,197 She wouldn't have showed up. 1313 00:52:29,277 --> 00:52:30,837 Haley and I would have struck out 1314 00:52:30,837 --> 00:52:34,117 because we could not solve some of the problems 1315 00:52:34,117 --> 00:52:36,577 of enabling Bitcoin. 1316 00:52:36,997 --> 00:52:38,257 I can walk through that if I want. 1317 00:52:38,357 --> 00:52:41,517 But anyway, I found it very interesting 1318 00:52:41,517 --> 00:52:43,337 that the merchant wanted to see the Bitcoin 1319 00:52:43,337 --> 00:52:44,397 in the Bitcoin amount. 1320 00:52:44,557 --> 00:52:45,857 Like there's one UI in Square 1321 00:52:45,857 --> 00:52:47,757 that just shows it as a dollar amount 1322 00:52:47,757 --> 00:52:49,757 and you have to switch modes or something 1323 00:52:49,757 --> 00:52:51,257 to see the units of Bitcoin. 1324 00:52:51,397 --> 00:52:52,197 They wanted to see the Bitcoin. 1325 00:52:52,437 --> 00:52:54,037 So I thought that was really fascinating. 1326 00:52:54,297 --> 00:52:56,537 Also, out of the six that enabled, 1327 00:52:56,897 --> 00:52:57,897 they all love itty-bitty. 1328 00:52:58,437 --> 00:53:00,097 They all got itty-bitty. 1329 00:53:01,777 --> 00:53:03,517 We're seeing many, many... 1330 00:53:03,517 --> 00:53:05,037 Who are these people? 1331 00:53:05,237 --> 00:53:06,237 No, majority. 1332 00:53:06,957 --> 00:53:09,357 Were they attracted by the 3%? 1333 00:53:09,977 --> 00:53:11,597 Were they somewhat already Bitcoin? 1334 00:53:12,097 --> 00:53:12,957 I'll get to that in a second. 1335 00:53:13,077 --> 00:53:14,837 But the itty-bitty specifically, though. 1336 00:53:14,837 --> 00:53:16,557 Are these middle-aged people, men, women? 1337 00:53:16,797 --> 00:53:18,277 What are we talking about? 1338 00:53:19,477 --> 00:53:20,157 Let's see. 1339 00:53:20,517 --> 00:53:21,157 They're younger than Steve. 1340 00:53:21,217 --> 00:53:25,297 Most were, well, that's the majority of people. 1341 00:53:26,517 --> 00:53:31,657 Most were like women in their 30s, 40s. 1342 00:53:31,677 --> 00:53:31,837 Okay. 1343 00:53:32,157 --> 00:53:32,317 Yeah. 1344 00:53:33,357 --> 00:53:34,177 So they liked the itty-bitty. 1345 00:53:34,397 --> 00:53:34,597 Interesting. 1346 00:53:34,597 --> 00:53:37,197 And so, yeah. 1347 00:53:37,537 --> 00:53:44,297 But I, like definitely my experience with itty-bitty the past year or two or whatever 1348 00:53:44,297 --> 00:53:47,557 is that women and children generally love it 1349 00:53:47,557 --> 00:53:49,677 and then guys less so. 1350 00:53:50,437 --> 00:53:51,957 Or more mixed. 1351 00:53:52,617 --> 00:53:54,697 But I think with small merchants, 1352 00:53:55,117 --> 00:53:57,737 I don't think it's really a gender or age thing. 1353 00:53:58,517 --> 00:54:00,357 The reason I think most people like, 1354 00:54:00,417 --> 00:54:01,497 first of all, they don't necessarily, 1355 00:54:02,157 --> 00:54:04,157 I mean, they might think it's quirky or odd, 1356 00:54:04,357 --> 00:54:06,077 but it's a great conversation starter. 1357 00:54:06,337 --> 00:54:06,937 Yeah, that's true. 1358 00:54:07,157 --> 00:54:09,037 And they want conversations with their customers. 1359 00:54:09,517 --> 00:54:10,717 So I think they view it as that. 1360 00:54:10,717 --> 00:54:12,777 And then also it's a very light touch way 1361 00:54:12,777 --> 00:54:14,277 to bring up the Bitcoin. 1362 00:54:14,557 --> 00:54:16,477 It's not like a guy with a gun. 1363 00:54:16,677 --> 00:54:16,877 Right. 1364 00:54:16,977 --> 00:54:18,557 You know, like a Bitcoiner with a gun. 1365 00:54:18,777 --> 00:54:19,097 America. 1366 00:54:19,377 --> 00:54:19,657 No. 1367 00:54:20,077 --> 00:54:20,237 No. 1368 00:54:20,377 --> 00:54:21,437 I'll never forget one time 1369 00:54:21,437 --> 00:54:22,117 we did a road trip. 1370 00:54:22,197 --> 00:54:23,457 My dad and I through Texas 1371 00:54:23,457 --> 00:54:25,457 and I went to like a Buc-ee's 1372 00:54:25,457 --> 00:54:25,917 or one of those. 1373 00:54:26,037 --> 00:54:26,997 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1374 00:54:27,337 --> 00:54:28,837 It's like a Texas-sized gas store. 1375 00:54:28,917 --> 00:54:30,117 It's like literally like the size 1376 00:54:30,117 --> 00:54:30,657 of the Presidio. 1377 00:54:30,797 --> 00:54:32,817 It's like a gas store. 1378 00:54:32,817 --> 00:54:32,937 Yeah. 1379 00:54:33,417 --> 00:54:34,517 And you walk in 1380 00:54:34,517 --> 00:54:36,017 and they had a Bitcoin ATM 1381 00:54:36,017 --> 00:54:36,857 and I was so excited. 1382 00:54:36,957 --> 00:54:37,657 I was like, look, there's a Bitcoin. 1383 00:54:37,657 --> 00:54:38,297 And this was years ago. 1384 00:54:38,377 --> 00:54:39,317 I was like, there's a Bitcoin ATM 1385 00:54:39,317 --> 00:54:40,917 and the sticker on it, 1386 00:54:40,977 --> 00:54:41,537 I shit you not, 1387 00:54:41,537 --> 00:54:43,637 and showed Bitcoin with the giant rifle across 1388 00:54:43,637 --> 00:54:45,657 and saying, come and take it, buddy. 1389 00:54:46,157 --> 00:54:47,777 And I was like, man, I know we're in Texas now. 1390 00:54:47,777 --> 00:54:49,497 Well, if it's in Texas, yeah, that'll 1391 00:54:49,497 --> 00:54:50,577 rest your audience. 1392 00:54:50,737 --> 00:54:51,537 A software approach. 1393 00:54:54,457 --> 00:54:55,317 But yeah, anyway, 1394 00:54:55,557 --> 00:54:57,397 I found it fascinating. They all love Diddy Biddy. 1395 00:54:57,577 --> 00:54:59,417 Now, to your question, what attracted 1396 00:54:59,417 --> 00:55:00,157 them to 1397 00:55:00,157 --> 00:55:01,937 this? 1398 00:55:03,297 --> 00:55:05,017 I think, for one, 1399 00:55:05,257 --> 00:55:07,377 it's a little bit of a special group because 1400 00:55:07,377 --> 00:55:09,417 they have 1401 00:55:09,417 --> 00:55:11,397 they already have an affinity to 1402 00:55:11,537 --> 00:55:13,857 block the company and they came to this event. 1403 00:55:14,117 --> 00:55:16,957 A lot of them operate out of the Oakland, 1404 00:55:17,397 --> 00:55:18,697 like the Oakland office, 1405 00:55:18,917 --> 00:55:21,597 the first floor is retail. 1406 00:55:22,297 --> 00:55:25,597 So I think they're like friends of Square. 1407 00:55:26,797 --> 00:55:27,997 And so I think they, 1408 00:55:28,537 --> 00:55:30,037 probably more than the average merchant, 1409 00:55:30,277 --> 00:55:32,197 like love to adopt new features 1410 00:55:32,197 --> 00:55:34,137 and they're just like more receptive to like, 1411 00:55:34,137 --> 00:55:38,657 oh, like, and everyone who was visiting them yesterday 1412 00:55:38,657 --> 00:55:40,777 were block employees because it was in the office, right? 1413 00:55:40,777 --> 00:55:41,797 you had to imagine and stuff. 1414 00:55:42,037 --> 00:55:42,057 So, 1415 00:55:42,677 --> 00:55:45,157 I think there's more open 1416 00:55:45,157 --> 00:55:46,517 than the general, 1417 00:55:46,857 --> 00:55:47,097 you know, 1418 00:55:47,157 --> 00:55:48,337 your average merchant. 1419 00:55:48,997 --> 00:55:49,777 But definitely, 1420 00:55:50,357 --> 00:55:50,997 even with them, 1421 00:55:51,597 --> 00:55:53,337 saving fees was huge. 1422 00:55:53,557 --> 00:55:54,397 Even like one of them, 1423 00:55:54,857 --> 00:55:56,317 I think they are already, 1424 00:55:56,477 --> 00:55:57,497 they already enabled Bitcoin, 1425 00:55:57,637 --> 00:55:59,757 but whoever's talking to them 1426 00:55:59,757 --> 00:56:01,737 didn't sell them on the fee aspect. 1427 00:56:01,857 --> 00:56:03,017 And then I told them after the fact 1428 00:56:03,017 --> 00:56:04,017 that you save fees 1429 00:56:04,017 --> 00:56:05,757 and then their eyes like lit up. 1430 00:56:05,917 --> 00:56:07,217 Then you can just tell 1431 00:56:07,217 --> 00:56:07,977 that they really go, 1432 00:56:08,037 --> 00:56:10,457 oh, this is why I want to like, 1433 00:56:10,777 --> 00:56:14,197 market this and get my customers to pay me a Bitcoin 1434 00:56:14,197 --> 00:56:16,497 because I get rid of the fees. 1435 00:56:16,777 --> 00:56:17,037 That's cool. 1436 00:56:17,297 --> 00:56:17,837 We should do, 1437 00:56:17,917 --> 00:56:20,157 I know you would talk about the merchant association idea 1438 00:56:20,157 --> 00:56:21,757 and maybe Bob would be a good lead on this 1439 00:56:21,757 --> 00:56:22,657 because now he's very focused. 1440 00:56:23,017 --> 00:56:24,997 It'd be cool to do like a merchant community here 1441 00:56:24,997 --> 00:56:26,717 and like just have like basically. 1442 00:56:26,857 --> 00:56:27,497 Sorry, a merchant community. 1443 00:56:27,697 --> 00:56:28,897 Night, like a few years. 1444 00:56:29,237 --> 00:56:29,917 Like pink owl coffee. 1445 00:56:30,137 --> 00:56:31,357 Yeah, like have all these people like. 1446 00:56:31,417 --> 00:56:32,497 We're way out of the act. 1447 00:56:33,857 --> 00:56:34,777 We're going to do a night? 1448 00:56:35,297 --> 00:56:36,397 A day? 1449 00:56:37,197 --> 00:56:37,857 Well, first of all, 1450 00:56:37,897 --> 00:56:39,537 we've already launched and talked about 1451 00:56:39,537 --> 00:56:41,077 the online community. 1452 00:56:41,297 --> 00:56:42,057 We have two communities. 1453 00:56:42,177 --> 00:56:43,197 One, a Facebook group, 1454 00:56:43,257 --> 00:56:44,037 which is for merchants. 1455 00:56:44,937 --> 00:56:45,797 And then we have 1456 00:56:45,797 --> 00:56:46,537 the Discord community, 1457 00:56:46,617 --> 00:56:47,597 which is for Bitcoiners 1458 00:56:47,597 --> 00:56:48,477 who are going out 1459 00:56:48,477 --> 00:56:49,737 evangelizing and getting 1460 00:56:49,737 --> 00:56:50,657 sellers to turn it on. 1461 00:56:51,417 --> 00:56:52,357 But as far as 1462 00:56:52,357 --> 00:56:53,657 an in-person event here, 1463 00:56:54,097 --> 00:56:55,297 more than just a night, 1464 00:56:55,357 --> 00:56:55,757 we're going to do 1465 00:56:55,757 --> 00:56:56,697 a full-blown, 1466 00:56:56,797 --> 00:56:58,117 type one level, 1467 00:56:58,317 --> 00:57:01,577 quality event next year. 1468 00:57:01,637 --> 00:57:01,997 Sweet. 1469 00:57:02,357 --> 00:57:04,957 For Presidia Bitcoin. 1470 00:57:05,097 --> 00:57:05,537 With merchants. 1471 00:57:05,597 --> 00:57:06,097 For merchants. 1472 00:57:06,397 --> 00:57:06,577 Yeah. 1473 00:57:06,577 --> 00:57:07,617 We're going to fill up 1474 00:57:07,617 --> 00:57:08,377 the lawn out here 1475 00:57:08,377 --> 00:57:08,837 with merchants. 1476 00:57:08,917 --> 00:57:09,417 Oh, sick. 1477 00:57:09,537 --> 00:57:09,957 That's awesome. 1478 00:57:10,517 --> 00:57:10,957 Are you serious? 1479 00:57:11,077 --> 00:57:11,337 That's sick. 1480 00:57:11,397 --> 00:57:11,517 Yeah. 1481 00:57:11,757 --> 00:57:13,297 Daniel Lurie, we're going to get him to come. 1482 00:57:13,857 --> 00:57:14,217 Motherfucker! 1483 00:57:14,477 --> 00:57:14,997 Let's go. 1484 00:57:15,377 --> 00:57:16,577 Dude, Daniel Lurie, by the way, 1485 00:57:16,777 --> 00:57:18,037 that shot hats off that guy. 1486 00:57:18,077 --> 00:57:18,897 He does a great job. 1487 00:57:18,957 --> 00:57:19,877 He's always out there hustling. 1488 00:57:19,877 --> 00:57:22,817 If you get him excited about this, 1489 00:57:22,877 --> 00:57:23,537 which I think he will, 1490 00:57:23,977 --> 00:57:25,397 I mean, he's at every merchant being like, 1491 00:57:25,477 --> 00:57:27,717 hey, I love this Vietnamese coffee. 1492 00:57:27,917 --> 00:57:29,337 And I can just see him being like... 1493 00:57:29,337 --> 00:57:30,117 I think he'll love it. 1494 00:57:30,277 --> 00:57:32,397 So yeah, Haley's going to make this happen. 1495 00:57:32,417 --> 00:57:34,237 So something like an off-the-grid style... 1496 00:57:34,237 --> 00:57:34,457 Yeah. 1497 00:57:34,977 --> 00:57:35,157 Yeah. 1498 00:57:35,497 --> 00:57:36,057 That's awesome. 1499 00:57:36,417 --> 00:57:37,617 So Haley's going to make it happen. 1500 00:57:37,937 --> 00:57:38,117 Fuck yeah. 1501 00:57:38,317 --> 00:57:38,637 She's... 1502 00:57:38,637 --> 00:57:39,137 That's super cool. 1503 00:57:39,137 --> 00:57:40,957 challenge to get, she's excited 1504 00:57:40,957 --> 00:57:43,057 and she takes it as a challenge to get 1505 00:57:43,057 --> 00:57:45,117 Daniel Lurie here. Let's do it. I think it's 1506 00:57:45,117 --> 00:57:47,137 totally achievable. And yet it'll just 1507 00:57:47,137 --> 00:57:48,917 be what we attended last night 1508 00:57:48,917 --> 00:57:50,997 on steroids. Like 1509 00:57:50,997 --> 00:57:52,757 we want 50, 100 1510 00:57:52,757 --> 00:57:55,037 vendors out here, right? And open 1511 00:57:55,037 --> 00:57:57,117 it up to the public. But we'll also have 1512 00:57:57,117 --> 00:57:59,157 an event here 1513 00:57:59,157 --> 00:58:00,717 at Presidio Bitcoin with 1514 00:58:00,717 --> 00:58:03,297 a smaller 1515 00:58:03,297 --> 00:58:05,137 group of people who can fit inside here 1516 00:58:05,137 --> 00:58:07,317 to talk 1517 00:58:07,317 --> 00:58:08,937 about all the issues 1518 00:58:08,937 --> 00:58:11,517 on the payer side and the merchant side 1519 00:58:11,517 --> 00:58:13,557 and not just have it be Square specific, 1520 00:58:13,737 --> 00:58:15,057 but other point of sale solutions. 1521 00:58:15,477 --> 00:58:16,917 And yeah, just a merchant, 1522 00:58:17,417 --> 00:58:18,977 dedicated merchant event here at PB. 1523 00:58:19,217 --> 00:58:19,797 It's super cool. 1524 00:58:20,217 --> 00:58:22,077 It sounds like the merchant story, 1525 00:58:22,497 --> 00:58:24,577 you guys, I think, correctly identified 1526 00:58:24,577 --> 00:58:27,017 the 3% is what's going to drive interest 1527 00:58:27,017 --> 00:58:30,537 and kind of durable usage and conversion 1528 00:58:30,537 --> 00:58:32,217 for a merchant to want Bitcoin. 1529 00:58:32,337 --> 00:58:33,237 But it sounded like you said 1530 00:58:33,237 --> 00:58:34,977 they were kind of excited to get into the UI 1531 00:58:34,977 --> 00:58:36,337 and see where the Bitcoin is. 1532 00:58:36,737 --> 00:58:38,637 You think they started to understand 1533 00:58:38,637 --> 00:58:40,637 a little bit about maybe why 1534 00:58:40,637 --> 00:58:42,717 a non-merchant may care about 1535 00:58:42,717 --> 00:58:44,797 Bitcoin? Like, are they curious about that? 1536 00:58:45,017 --> 00:58:46,757 Or it sounds like they may 1537 00:58:46,757 --> 00:58:48,737 hold it. They may have some beliefs that 1538 00:58:48,737 --> 00:58:49,777 they've come to or learned about. 1539 00:58:51,857 --> 00:58:52,657 The folks 1540 00:58:52,657 --> 00:58:54,617 I met last night, I think they, you know, 1541 00:58:54,657 --> 00:58:56,677 they have just superficial knowledge 1542 00:58:56,677 --> 00:58:58,757 of Bitcoin. I think, again, their view 1543 00:58:58,757 --> 00:59:00,597 is just, it's exciting. It's this foreign 1544 00:59:00,597 --> 00:59:02,377 world to them, exciting technology. 1545 00:59:02,757 --> 00:59:04,697 And they were excited. It was 1546 00:59:04,697 --> 00:59:06,797 an exciting moment for them that they're a Bitcoiner now. 1547 00:59:07,037 --> 00:59:08,537 Like, they own Bitcoin 1548 00:59:08,537 --> 00:59:09,497 they could see it in the UI. 1549 00:59:09,877 --> 00:59:12,577 So I think this is like the beginning of their journey. 1550 00:59:12,757 --> 00:59:13,957 I think so much of that is just like 1551 00:59:13,957 --> 00:59:15,237 general early adopters. 1552 00:59:15,357 --> 00:59:16,797 Like when I got my honey dealer on Bitcoin, 1553 00:59:17,057 --> 00:59:18,517 he's not a Bitcoiner per se, 1554 00:59:18,657 --> 00:59:19,757 but he's someone that thinks, 1555 00:59:20,437 --> 00:59:22,077 he's a curious human being. 1556 00:59:22,597 --> 00:59:24,397 And so I think if someone's like high on curiosity, 1557 00:59:24,597 --> 00:59:24,957 they're gonna be like, 1558 00:59:25,037 --> 00:59:26,217 oh, exactly, exactly. 1559 00:59:26,817 --> 00:59:27,237 The only guy. 1560 00:59:27,917 --> 00:59:29,177 That's the, you know, 1561 00:59:29,197 --> 00:59:29,857 something he wants to try. 1562 00:59:29,957 --> 00:59:31,717 I will say one point he made, 1563 00:59:31,797 --> 00:59:33,057 and like, it's probably the case where like, 1564 00:59:33,257 --> 00:59:35,557 whatever, just focus on the curious early adopters 1565 00:59:35,557 --> 00:59:36,337 and build from there. 1566 00:59:36,657 --> 00:59:38,337 But one thing I noticed when I tried 1567 00:59:38,337 --> 00:59:39,257 to Orange Pill, 1568 00:59:40,957 --> 00:59:42,097 my farmer's market, 1569 00:59:43,077 --> 00:59:44,257 sort of like the curious 1570 00:59:44,257 --> 00:59:45,897 guy with glasses 1571 00:59:45,897 --> 00:59:47,237 that looks like he reads 1572 00:59:47,237 --> 00:59:47,857 Wired Magazine. 1573 00:59:47,977 --> 00:59:48,717 Of course, he was like, 1574 00:59:48,777 --> 00:59:49,797 oh, great, let's do it. 1575 00:59:50,617 --> 00:59:52,057 The woman who's a little bit older, 1576 00:59:52,157 --> 00:59:53,417 I don't think it's just an age thing. 1577 00:59:53,577 --> 00:59:54,897 Sadly, I kind of got the vibe 1578 00:59:54,897 --> 00:59:55,957 from her where she kind of 1579 00:59:55,957 --> 00:59:57,617 associated with sort of like Trump 1580 00:59:57,617 --> 00:59:58,657 and she was just going, 1581 00:59:58,777 --> 00:59:59,817 oh, I don't like all that. 1582 00:59:59,997 --> 01:00:02,597 And I think in the Bay Area 1583 01:00:02,597 --> 01:00:03,497 being a traditionally 1584 01:00:03,497 --> 01:00:04,477 more liberal city or whatever, 1585 01:00:04,577 --> 01:00:05,537 I wonder how much 1586 01:00:05,537 --> 01:00:06,317 that's going to be an issue. 1587 01:00:06,317 --> 01:00:09,237 For the young, early tech adopter people, it's not at all. 1588 01:00:09,317 --> 01:00:11,897 But I think it's at least worth thinking through for that woman. 1589 01:00:12,317 --> 01:00:14,057 Now, fees, saving, she likes saving. 1590 01:00:14,217 --> 01:00:16,217 But we all know people like to virtue signal here. 1591 01:00:16,477 --> 01:00:17,377 So it'll be interesting. 1592 01:00:17,837 --> 01:00:22,077 Well, and so we have the Discord community for Bitcoiners who are out doing similar things 1593 01:00:22,077 --> 01:00:23,037 as what we're talking about. 1594 01:00:23,777 --> 01:00:27,537 Austin, who's Austin Bach, who's one of our regular listeners. 1595 01:00:28,017 --> 01:00:30,537 He's the local champion in Seattle. 1596 01:00:30,817 --> 01:00:31,337 That's another thing, too. 1597 01:00:31,337 --> 01:00:41,537 Like Spiral, we initially shipped the itty bitties and a bunch of one pagers to five different Bitcoin hubs in the US, five different cities. 1598 01:00:42,537 --> 01:00:49,017 But we got so much inbound saying, oh, I want to be the local champion for my city or whatever, Kansas City and Seattle and Boston. 1599 01:00:49,677 --> 01:00:51,497 So we opened that up an application process. 1600 01:00:51,657 --> 01:00:56,117 And I think we have like 15 different local champions throughout the US now and growing. 1601 01:00:56,477 --> 01:00:58,097 We're actually now running out of itty bitties. 1602 01:00:58,097 --> 01:00:59,757 We have to make more. 1603 01:00:59,757 --> 01:01:00,477 Great. 1604 01:01:01,317 --> 01:01:05,557 The whole process takes like six months to get these from China. 1605 01:01:05,777 --> 01:01:07,457 But anyway, wasn't there like... 1606 01:01:07,457 --> 01:01:09,257 We need local manufacturing. 1607 01:01:09,257 --> 01:01:10,257 Local manufacturing. 1608 01:01:10,717 --> 01:01:11,577 Come on. 1609 01:01:11,677 --> 01:01:12,637 We need to bring it back to the US. 1610 01:01:12,777 --> 01:01:13,797 It's national security. 1611 01:01:14,637 --> 01:01:15,577 But I think... 1612 01:01:15,577 --> 01:01:20,317 So a lot of people are sharing similar stories as like Bob shared and I'm sharing now. 1613 01:01:20,737 --> 01:01:23,377 You guys have in that Discord. 1614 01:01:23,377 --> 01:01:28,897 And one of them, one of their reports said that like when they were talking to people, 1615 01:01:28,897 --> 01:01:30,977 that they didn't even realize 1616 01:01:30,977 --> 01:01:32,377 you could use Bitcoin as money. 1617 01:01:32,677 --> 01:01:33,977 So I think the narrative 1618 01:01:33,977 --> 01:01:35,337 has been so strong 1619 01:01:35,337 --> 01:01:37,097 on number go up and ETS 1620 01:01:37,097 --> 01:01:39,017 and digital gold 1621 01:01:39,017 --> 01:01:40,517 that tons of people 1622 01:01:40,517 --> 01:01:41,437 don't even realize 1623 01:01:41,437 --> 01:01:43,157 you can actually use it as money 1624 01:01:43,157 --> 01:01:44,637 and it's lightning fast. 1625 01:01:45,257 --> 01:01:47,197 So I think this push, 1626 01:01:47,717 --> 01:01:48,937 Square enabling it, 1627 01:01:49,377 --> 01:01:50,817 now having many different wallets 1628 01:01:50,817 --> 01:01:51,437 that work well 1629 01:01:51,437 --> 01:01:52,657 and then this Bitcoin army 1630 01:01:52,657 --> 01:01:53,637 that we're trying to enable 1631 01:01:53,637 --> 01:01:54,737 and is happening 1632 01:01:54,737 --> 01:01:57,277 in creating real world conversations 1633 01:01:57,277 --> 01:01:57,657 with people 1634 01:01:57,657 --> 01:01:59,337 is going to help shift the narrative. 1635 01:01:59,577 --> 01:02:01,537 Like, oh, or to us, 1636 01:02:01,677 --> 01:02:03,197 like, of course it can be used as money 1637 01:02:03,197 --> 01:02:03,977 because we're using it. 1638 01:02:03,997 --> 01:02:05,577 But most human beings aren't, 1639 01:02:05,677 --> 01:02:06,677 don't even know that, 1640 01:02:06,777 --> 01:02:07,397 think that, do that. 1641 01:02:07,597 --> 01:02:08,757 I think that's a huge narrative. 1642 01:02:08,877 --> 01:02:10,637 Do we have hub leaders in the South yet, 1643 01:02:10,677 --> 01:02:11,077 like Atlanta? 1644 01:02:11,997 --> 01:02:14,717 Yep, that was one of our initial hubs. 1645 01:02:14,717 --> 01:02:19,697 Because there's a physical Bitcoin space 1646 01:02:19,697 --> 01:02:21,837 in Atlanta, the Atlanta Bitcoin land. 1647 01:02:21,837 --> 01:02:22,617 That's awesome here. 1648 01:02:22,757 --> 01:02:23,717 The reason I mentioned that is 1649 01:02:23,717 --> 01:02:25,377 I was blown away by a study 1650 01:02:25,377 --> 01:02:26,297 a couple of years ago. 1651 01:02:26,377 --> 01:02:27,417 I don't know if this is true, 1652 01:02:27,657 --> 01:02:30,697 I actually think I shared this with Miles and even he was surprised. 1653 01:02:31,297 --> 01:02:37,697 But basically it showed that black Americans own Bitcoin in a much higher clip than you would expect. 1654 01:02:37,877 --> 01:02:39,577 And I was like, well, duh, that's because they have Cash App. 1655 01:02:39,937 --> 01:02:42,717 Everyone that's from the South, I'm from the South, black people use Cash App. 1656 01:02:43,357 --> 01:02:48,337 And they also are generally probably going to be skeptical of the government, centralized power. 1657 01:02:48,337 --> 01:02:53,377 So I think some of fighting this political narrative would be really cool to start seeing basically the South, 1658 01:02:53,377 --> 01:02:54,717 people that are already on Cash App, 1659 01:02:54,897 --> 01:02:55,637 hip-hop culture, 1660 01:02:55,997 --> 01:02:57,597 start to embrace Bitcoin more as like, 1661 01:02:57,637 --> 01:02:58,197 this is like, 1662 01:02:58,557 --> 01:02:59,617 it's resistance money, 1663 01:02:59,717 --> 01:03:00,577 it's independence money. 1664 01:03:00,997 --> 01:03:01,957 I think that would be really powerful. 1665 01:03:02,117 --> 01:03:02,357 I agree. 1666 01:03:02,437 --> 01:03:03,177 So we're in Atlanta. 1667 01:03:04,117 --> 01:03:04,577 Memphis too. 1668 01:03:04,577 --> 01:03:05,017 We need Memphis. 1669 01:03:05,017 --> 01:03:06,117 We need Memphis. 1670 01:03:06,117 --> 01:03:06,537 Let's get to Memphis. 1671 01:03:06,537 --> 01:03:07,077 So you can find, 1672 01:03:07,217 --> 01:03:08,657 help us find a local champion in Memphis. 1673 01:03:08,777 --> 01:03:09,137 I actually, 1674 01:03:09,297 --> 01:03:10,497 I may have an idea. 1675 01:03:11,177 --> 01:03:11,537 Your dad? 1676 01:03:12,457 --> 01:03:13,117 No, I'm not. 1677 01:03:13,257 --> 01:03:13,617 Okay. 1678 01:03:14,117 --> 01:03:14,957 Anyway, yeah. 1679 01:03:15,157 --> 01:03:15,497 That'd be good. 1680 01:03:16,277 --> 01:03:17,317 Oh, dude, New Orleans. 1681 01:03:17,437 --> 01:03:20,297 We got Michael Levine from Lightning Live. 1682 01:03:20,897 --> 01:03:22,097 Yeah, let's get the South. 1683 01:03:22,177 --> 01:03:22,877 Let's get the South going. 1684 01:03:23,377 --> 01:03:25,937 hold on there's one more thing I want to say 1685 01:03:25,937 --> 01:03:27,177 what did I want to say about this stuff 1686 01:03:27,177 --> 01:03:29,737 Biddy 1687 01:03:29,737 --> 01:03:30,997 yeah 1688 01:03:30,997 --> 01:03:31,937 Big Biddy 1689 01:03:31,937 --> 01:03:36,157 Haley and I went on another adventure 1690 01:03:36,157 --> 01:03:36,777 yesterday 1691 01:03:36,777 --> 01:03:39,437 before we went to this 1692 01:03:39,437 --> 01:03:41,217 so Fold 1693 01:03:41,217 --> 01:03:43,677 I think we talked about this maybe on the show 1694 01:03:43,677 --> 01:03:45,777 in October Fold announced 1695 01:03:45,777 --> 01:03:47,277 a gift card 1696 01:03:47,277 --> 01:03:48,457 a Bitcoin gift card 1697 01:03:48,457 --> 01:03:51,377 and Million from Primal 1698 01:03:51,377 --> 01:03:52,717 who we know and love 1699 01:03:52,717 --> 01:03:54,337 and love what he's doing in Primal. 1700 01:03:54,497 --> 01:03:56,817 He created a Bitcoin gift card 1701 01:03:56,817 --> 01:03:58,597 like five, six years ago 1702 01:03:58,597 --> 01:04:01,417 that was available in Canada, 1703 01:04:01,557 --> 01:04:03,477 but it never really... 1704 01:04:03,477 --> 01:04:05,517 I think he hit some roadblocks 1705 01:04:05,517 --> 01:04:07,937 and ultimately just abandoned that idea. 1706 01:04:08,497 --> 01:04:09,477 Fold's now doing it. 1707 01:04:09,857 --> 01:04:11,717 I've always thought this is like 1708 01:04:11,717 --> 01:04:14,277 absolutely the best way to gift Bitcoin to people. 1709 01:04:14,677 --> 01:04:15,197 Yes, definitely. 1710 01:04:15,317 --> 01:04:16,437 Because it's super simple. 1711 01:04:16,717 --> 01:04:18,597 It's a credit card-sized gift card. 1712 01:04:19,777 --> 01:04:20,517 It's a really... 1713 01:04:20,517 --> 01:04:22,697 even what Million created six years ago 1714 01:04:22,697 --> 01:04:25,517 is a brilliant UX for onboarding someone brand new. 1715 01:04:25,657 --> 01:04:27,037 So it's really slick UX, 1716 01:04:27,457 --> 01:04:29,137 simple form factor to give someone as a gift. 1717 01:04:29,477 --> 01:04:31,197 And it's also something they're familiar with. 1718 01:04:31,577 --> 01:04:32,677 Gift cards are a thing. 1719 01:04:32,797 --> 01:04:33,877 They're already familiar with that. 1720 01:04:34,437 --> 01:04:35,737 And the only thing you need to know 1721 01:04:35,737 --> 01:04:38,117 is downloading an app from the App Store 1722 01:04:38,117 --> 01:04:39,877 and just following one, two, three, 1723 01:04:39,977 --> 01:04:41,017 very simple instructions. 1724 01:04:42,497 --> 01:04:44,417 But then for years and years, we never had it. 1725 01:04:44,677 --> 01:04:47,837 Finally, Folds announced it and launched it. 1726 01:04:47,837 --> 01:04:50,377 So I looked up, there's one store in San Francisco, 1727 01:04:50,517 --> 01:04:52,117 has it. So Haley and I went to that store. 1728 01:04:52,237 --> 01:04:53,557 Sorry, had it. 1729 01:04:54,436 --> 01:04:55,917 Steve bought out the store. 1730 01:04:57,357 --> 01:04:58,297 Not quite, but 1731 01:04:58,297 --> 01:05:00,317 we went to this grocery 1732 01:05:00,317 --> 01:05:02,597 store at 1800 Folsom in San Francisco. 1733 01:05:04,077 --> 01:05:04,357 It's like 1734 01:05:04,357 --> 01:05:05,436 Outer Mission or something? 1735 01:05:06,456 --> 01:05:07,497 Where is that? 1736 01:05:08,197 --> 01:05:08,797 Sounds like Soma. 1737 01:05:09,157 --> 01:05:10,456 Yeah, it's like Soma. 1738 01:05:11,377 --> 01:05:14,077 It's the intersection of Soma and Mission. 1739 01:05:14,077 --> 01:05:16,137 It was a very 1740 01:05:16,137 --> 01:05:18,197 busy grocery store. We had to stay in line 1741 01:05:18,197 --> 01:05:20,057 for a long time, but we went and they have gift 1742 01:05:20,057 --> 01:05:21,697 cards everywhere throughout the store. 1743 01:05:21,936 --> 01:05:24,157 It was crazy how many gift cards they had. 1744 01:05:24,157 --> 01:05:25,577 They're always on those end caps, right? 1745 01:05:25,737 --> 01:05:28,257 They had them sprinkled, though, 1746 01:05:28,397 --> 01:05:30,517 also at every checkout line. 1747 01:05:31,077 --> 01:05:32,277 They have candy bars 1748 01:05:32,277 --> 01:05:34,197 and stuff. They had gift cards at every 1749 01:05:34,197 --> 01:05:34,917 single checkout line. 1750 01:05:35,417 --> 01:05:38,197 We looked through the whole store. There was a ton of gift 1751 01:05:38,197 --> 01:05:39,417 cards. One 1752 01:05:39,417 --> 01:05:40,837 rack or one 1753 01:05:40,837 --> 01:05:44,157 specific placement had 1754 01:05:44,157 --> 01:05:45,997 Bitcoin cards. There were 10. 1755 01:05:46,837 --> 01:05:48,237 We bought six of the 10. 1756 01:05:48,297 --> 01:05:49,477 There's still four there for the taking. 1757 01:05:49,637 --> 01:05:50,377 They're probably gone by now. 1758 01:05:51,417 --> 01:05:52,097 But this is great. 1759 01:05:52,217 --> 01:05:53,057 Why are there only 10? 1760 01:05:53,117 --> 01:05:54,657 How do we get every store to have? 1761 01:05:54,797 --> 01:05:58,436 The lady who checked us out said we are the first people that she had seen buy these. 1762 01:05:58,477 --> 01:06:01,436 So I don't know how popular they are yet, but I think it's so great. 1763 01:06:01,877 --> 01:06:07,037 But my understanding is these end cap gift card things are heavily controlled. 1764 01:06:07,497 --> 01:06:09,537 And so you have to do a distribution partnership. 1765 01:06:09,677 --> 01:06:11,337 Yeah, you mentioned Blackhawk. 1766 01:06:11,797 --> 01:06:12,817 There's two distributors. 1767 01:06:13,137 --> 01:06:16,837 It's not like you go to the shop owner and say, hey, Bitcoin would be great. 1768 01:06:16,837 --> 01:06:19,497 but you have to kind of go to Blackhawk and convince them, right? 1769 01:06:19,757 --> 01:06:22,517 Which is why I think Million ended up not proceeding. 1770 01:06:22,677 --> 01:06:23,897 But if they get a bunch of sales... 1771 01:06:23,897 --> 01:06:25,077 And they take a huge margin. 1772 01:06:25,417 --> 01:06:30,197 So, yeah, I'm arguing this from the end consumer side, 1773 01:06:30,317 --> 01:06:32,037 not like, is it a brilliant business or not? 1774 01:06:32,037 --> 01:06:34,436 I hope it's a good business for Fold, 1775 01:06:34,757 --> 01:06:36,697 because I want to see this happen, right? 1776 01:06:37,757 --> 01:06:40,717 At the end consumer, you could specify, 1777 01:06:41,117 --> 01:06:43,717 I think it was $25 to $500 value. 1778 01:06:43,997 --> 01:06:45,197 So you tell them at the checkout counter, 1779 01:06:45,197 --> 01:06:47,177 That's how much value I want per gift card. 1780 01:06:47,997 --> 01:06:49,077 Do they cap how many you can buy? 1781 01:06:50,137 --> 01:06:50,897 Well, I don't know. 1782 01:06:50,936 --> 01:06:55,117 I bought five $100 ones that I'll give away for holiday guests. 1783 01:06:55,337 --> 01:06:58,057 And those then, you download... 1784 01:06:58,057 --> 01:06:59,737 We need to check in on this for the gift baskets. 1785 01:07:00,217 --> 01:07:03,177 We wanted to put them in gift baskets for the speakers along with the tea. 1786 01:07:03,797 --> 01:07:04,277 Oh, I see. 1787 01:07:04,377 --> 01:07:05,057 But we need to get 23. 1788 01:07:05,697 --> 01:07:06,936 Well, I just want to make sure I understand the UX. 1789 01:07:06,936 --> 01:07:10,657 So you buy the gift card, you go to the checkout, 1790 01:07:10,837 --> 01:07:12,637 and you say, put $25 on this. 1791 01:07:13,197 --> 01:07:13,936 And then... 1792 01:07:13,936 --> 01:07:16,357 the receiver of the gift card. 1793 01:07:16,577 --> 01:07:17,717 No, you tell them. 1794 01:07:17,877 --> 01:07:18,077 Really? 1795 01:07:19,477 --> 01:07:21,717 The checkout person is the one that... 1796 01:07:21,717 --> 01:07:22,277 Could you just be like, 1797 01:07:22,337 --> 01:07:23,557 hey man, 10 grand on this please? 1798 01:07:23,697 --> 01:07:23,837 No. 1799 01:07:25,637 --> 01:07:27,897 The card itself says like $25 to $500. 1800 01:07:28,277 --> 01:07:29,397 So it's a $500 limit. 1801 01:07:29,477 --> 01:07:30,717 Let's say you do a $500 limit. 1802 01:07:30,717 --> 01:07:31,977 This kind of becomes local Bitcoins. 1803 01:07:32,117 --> 01:07:33,637 Then you have to download... 1804 01:07:33,637 --> 01:07:34,177 Well, we can have that, 1805 01:07:34,277 --> 01:07:34,977 but it is a $500. 1806 01:07:35,137 --> 01:07:35,877 It's not $10,000. 1807 01:07:36,157 --> 01:07:36,297 Yeah. 1808 01:07:37,297 --> 01:07:37,777 Go ahead. 1809 01:07:38,037 --> 01:07:39,397 So I'm just trying to make sure I understand the UX. 1810 01:07:39,537 --> 01:07:42,877 So you get, say, $500 is the max. 1811 01:07:42,997 --> 01:07:43,797 You get on the card. 1812 01:07:43,936 --> 01:07:46,317 then you give it to somebody or keep it for yourself. 1813 01:07:46,737 --> 01:07:49,597 You download the Fold app and you punch in a number. 1814 01:07:49,657 --> 01:07:50,897 I assume it's not like a seed phrase, right? 1815 01:07:50,917 --> 01:07:54,217 There's just some code on the card that you scratch off. 1816 01:07:54,237 --> 01:07:56,037 I have been busy since buying it. 1817 01:07:56,037 --> 01:07:58,797 So I haven't, they're still in my backpack. 1818 01:08:00,297 --> 01:08:00,817 Okay. 1819 01:08:01,436 --> 01:08:01,657 Yeah. 1820 01:08:01,917 --> 01:08:04,436 So I'll have to report back next week on the UX 1821 01:08:04,436 --> 01:08:06,137 once you install the app. 1822 01:08:06,137 --> 01:08:07,217 Right next to his GAT. 1823 01:08:07,697 --> 01:08:13,217 But ultimately this is like a fairly good privacy tool maybe? 1824 01:08:13,717 --> 01:08:14,517 That's what I was saying. 1825 01:08:15,377 --> 01:08:15,857 Potentially. 1826 01:08:16,257 --> 01:08:21,497 I'll have to see if I have to KYC when I try to claim the Bitcoin. 1827 01:08:21,677 --> 01:08:22,117 I might. 1828 01:08:22,117 --> 01:08:29,396 But even if so, I could purchase them with cash at a store and then sell it to you. 1829 01:08:29,497 --> 01:08:30,697 You give me cash back. 1830 01:08:30,957 --> 01:08:31,257 Exactly. 1831 01:08:32,037 --> 01:08:34,997 So there's obviously money laundering potential there. 1832 01:08:35,257 --> 01:08:37,457 But I think that's where you get the $500 limit. 1833 01:08:38,037 --> 01:08:40,356 It slows down the velocity so it's not super attractive. 1834 01:08:40,837 --> 01:08:42,277 But how many can you buy? 1835 01:08:42,417 --> 01:08:42,837 I don't know. 1836 01:08:43,217 --> 01:08:45,797 I bought five unquestioned. 1837 01:08:47,497 --> 01:08:48,977 I just paid a credit card, though. 1838 01:08:49,377 --> 01:08:52,396 So imagine if I would have bought all $10, $500, 1839 01:08:52,697 --> 01:08:55,157 and I brought in $5,000 of cash. 1840 01:08:55,316 --> 01:08:57,737 The lady is just like, another day in the mission. 1841 01:08:58,557 --> 01:09:00,917 The checkout lady, I don't think, would have cared. 1842 01:09:01,037 --> 01:09:03,637 But if I would literally hand her $5,000 of cash, 1843 01:09:03,697 --> 01:09:05,557 I think she'd be like, I got to call my manager. 1844 01:09:05,896 --> 01:09:07,177 What do I do with all this cash? 1845 01:09:07,177 --> 01:09:09,517 Because they don't want to have that much cash sitting in cash register. 1846 01:09:10,297 --> 01:09:11,877 Then the manager might be like, 1847 01:09:11,877 --> 01:09:14,077 oh sorry we have a policy or a rule 1848 01:09:14,077 --> 01:09:15,657 or who knows 1849 01:09:15,657 --> 01:09:17,316 I mean it's going to be 1850 01:09:17,316 --> 01:09:18,896 it's going to vary by store right 1851 01:09:18,896 --> 01:09:21,657 but I don't know what the limits would be 1852 01:09:21,657 --> 01:09:23,117 but we're going to 1853 01:09:23,117 --> 01:09:26,117 do our best to get these at PresidioBitcoin 1854 01:09:26,117 --> 01:09:27,137 for people to purchase them 1855 01:09:27,137 --> 01:09:29,837 we want to do these as like $25 1856 01:09:29,837 --> 01:09:32,316 thank you cards to get the speakers 1857 01:09:32,316 --> 01:09:33,497 interested in Bitcoin 1858 01:09:33,497 --> 01:09:35,217 so is that the only place we can do it 1859 01:09:35,217 --> 01:09:36,237 is there anywhere else in the Bay Area 1860 01:09:36,237 --> 01:09:38,816 one in Oakland and one here 1861 01:09:38,816 --> 01:09:40,617 in San Francisco 1862 01:09:40,617 --> 01:09:45,757 go all right but um yeah and i'll report back once i've completed the user experience as to 1863 01:09:45,757 --> 01:09:51,316 how how it was i'm hoping it was i'm hoping it's as good or better than what million did because 1864 01:09:51,316 --> 01:09:56,117 what he created was an amazing ui maybe it's opportunity for million to reignite that because 1865 01:09:56,117 --> 01:09:59,477 it's also very interesting for primal too right like if you want to get someone like going on 1866 01:09:59,477 --> 01:10:03,517 primal it's like here's your first ten dollars or twenty five dollars yeah yeah i actually get them 1867 01:10:03,517 --> 01:10:08,417 in costco that'd be great oh yeah exactly next to the gold bar you should be able to buy some 1868 01:10:08,417 --> 01:10:10,316 Bitcoin, right? Maybe someone 1869 01:10:10,316 --> 01:10:12,297 should, Vinny, maybe someone should make a scratch 1870 01:10:12,297 --> 01:10:14,356 off birthday card with the secret key. I've 1871 01:10:14,356 --> 01:10:16,297 always liked that idea too, like the scratch offs 1872 01:10:16,297 --> 01:10:17,936 like you do with the nickel or whatever. 1873 01:10:19,637 --> 01:10:20,477 There's variations 1874 01:10:20,477 --> 01:10:21,297 that 1875 01:10:21,297 --> 01:10:24,457 others have 1876 01:10:24,457 --> 01:10:26,377 created. I think it's 1877 01:10:26,377 --> 01:10:28,157 good for gifting. I would definitely want to 1878 01:10:28,157 --> 01:10:30,037 move the Bitcoin off of that. 1879 01:10:30,037 --> 01:10:32,217 Diana asked me a question. How did you locate 1880 01:10:32,217 --> 01:10:33,297 the store? Did you just Google it? 1881 01:10:34,257 --> 01:10:36,316 No, from the full website, they have a 1882 01:10:36,316 --> 01:10:38,297 search function. You can type 1883 01:10:38,297 --> 01:10:39,337 in your zip code 1884 01:10:39,337 --> 01:10:39,597 or whatever. 1885 01:10:39,617 --> 01:10:40,337 People listen to this 1886 01:10:40,337 --> 01:10:41,316 like if we can get it 1887 01:10:41,316 --> 01:10:42,356 throughout the whole Bay Area 1888 01:10:42,356 --> 01:10:43,537 there will be demand. 1889 01:10:43,997 --> 01:10:44,537 Well we have 1890 01:10:44,537 --> 01:10:44,997 we have 1891 01:10:44,997 --> 01:10:46,277 the lead designer 1892 01:10:46,277 --> 01:10:46,997 is a member of 1893 01:10:46,997 --> 01:10:47,537 Presidio Bitcoin. 1894 01:10:47,777 --> 01:10:48,217 Since when? 1895 01:10:49,297 --> 01:10:49,816 Well I mean 1896 01:10:49,816 --> 01:10:50,977 he was at Design Week 1897 01:10:50,977 --> 01:10:52,356 and 1898 01:10:52,356 --> 01:10:54,117 well if you're listening 1899 01:10:54,117 --> 01:10:54,677 I don't know 1900 01:10:54,677 --> 01:10:55,517 I think he is 1901 01:10:55,517 --> 01:10:55,816 or is 1902 01:10:55,816 --> 01:10:56,396 Alex 1903 01:10:56,396 --> 01:10:57,277 is he already a 1904 01:10:57,277 --> 01:10:57,997 member? 1905 01:10:58,816 --> 01:10:58,917 Yeah. 1906 01:10:59,097 --> 01:10:59,457 Affirmative. 1907 01:10:59,957 --> 01:11:00,936 So we hope to see 1908 01:11:00,936 --> 01:11:01,537 more of him here 1909 01:11:01,537 --> 01:11:01,856 but yeah 1910 01:11:01,856 --> 01:11:02,717 he's the one I reached out to 1911 01:11:02,717 --> 01:11:03,157 saying hey 1912 01:11:03,157 --> 01:11:03,957 can we get these 1913 01:11:03,957 --> 01:11:04,457 Presidio Bitcoin 1914 01:11:04,457 --> 01:11:05,557 he's working on it. 1915 01:11:05,677 --> 01:11:06,277 Can we get 23 1916 01:11:06,277 --> 01:11:07,237 for our speakers? 1917 01:11:07,917 --> 01:11:08,097 Yep. 1918 01:11:08,297 --> 01:11:09,977 We can also ask them that. 1919 01:11:10,197 --> 01:11:10,297 Okay. 1920 01:11:11,356 --> 01:11:11,697 Awesome. 1921 01:11:12,037 --> 01:11:12,477 I love it. 1922 01:11:14,237 --> 01:11:19,316 We had a bunch of things listed around AI and Noster. 1923 01:11:19,577 --> 01:11:34,055 Is that stuff covered or did you have No we did not cover it Yeah I mean so I mean i i talked about the i mean look the tldr is i starting to get re and um re meaning you you sort of had a 1924 01:11:34,055 --> 01:11:40,735 slump and now you're kind of back believe in it or this is a very long complicated conversation 1925 01:11:40,735 --> 01:11:46,695 i think you know i don't even know where to begin like i'm starting to see sort of ai bifurcating 1926 01:11:46,695 --> 01:11:48,155 where on the short end, 1927 01:11:48,335 --> 01:11:49,395 I'm increasingly bullish. 1928 01:11:49,515 --> 01:11:51,035 I made this tweet about this yesterday. 1929 01:11:51,135 --> 01:11:52,055 I think Chris Pike was like, 1930 01:11:52,115 --> 01:11:53,435 I think he's generally a very good investor 1931 01:11:53,435 --> 01:11:55,376 and sees a lot of trends ahead. 1932 01:11:55,855 --> 01:11:57,535 And he was always kind of very long Apple 1933 01:11:57,535 --> 01:11:58,876 when everyone else was long everything else. 1934 01:11:58,955 --> 01:12:00,835 And his TLDR was open source models 1935 01:12:00,835 --> 01:12:01,416 are going to get so good, 1936 01:12:01,455 --> 01:12:02,195 you can run it at the edge. 1937 01:12:02,315 --> 01:12:03,416 I think that's happening, right? 1938 01:12:03,675 --> 01:12:04,635 And it's interesting because you saw, 1939 01:12:04,795 --> 01:12:05,495 it was, I think, announced 1940 01:12:05,495 --> 01:12:07,475 that Peter Thiel slashed his position in Tesla 1941 01:12:07,475 --> 01:12:08,515 and sold all of his NVIDIA 1942 01:12:08,515 --> 01:12:09,535 for Apple and Microsoft. 1943 01:12:09,995 --> 01:12:12,015 To me, the Apple move is a move 1944 01:12:12,015 --> 01:12:13,975 sort of signifying what Bob McElrath 1945 01:12:13,975 --> 01:12:15,135 also said here in his talk, 1946 01:12:15,135 --> 01:12:17,755 which is the open source models on device. 1947 01:12:17,876 --> 01:12:18,895 And for instance, getting really good. 1948 01:12:19,455 --> 01:12:21,735 On the other token, or the other hand, 1949 01:12:22,015 --> 01:12:23,215 no pun intended there, 1950 01:12:23,615 --> 01:12:25,635 I do think that the frontier models 1951 01:12:25,635 --> 01:12:27,195 are going to keep getting better for a long time as well. 1952 01:12:27,275 --> 01:12:28,795 And like, everyone's like, oh, like the overbuild, 1953 01:12:28,916 --> 01:12:29,995 like there ain't gonna be no overbuild. 1954 01:12:30,335 --> 01:12:31,895 Like if you follow the scaling laws, 1955 01:12:31,916 --> 01:12:34,575 and I've listened to more conversations with Dario, 1956 01:12:34,635 --> 01:12:36,675 and I'd say I'm increasingly impressed with Anthropic 1957 01:12:36,675 --> 01:12:40,395 and like really, I have two sort of anti-portfolio companies. 1958 01:12:40,555 --> 01:12:41,735 I personally passed that one 1959 01:12:41,735 --> 01:12:42,655 because I thought they were too woke 1960 01:12:42,655 --> 01:12:43,775 and like, I was wrong. 1961 01:12:43,775 --> 01:12:45,015 Man, they're good. 1962 01:12:45,135 --> 01:12:49,395 they're really, really good. And I think he's, he's like a very talented alchemist. Like he can 1963 01:12:49,395 --> 01:12:52,755 cook better than anyone else. It seems like that's why this is Claude dominating coding. 1964 01:12:53,115 --> 01:12:57,455 Anyways, you listen to him and like, what I love about his take is he's just, he's very smart, 1965 01:12:57,515 --> 01:13:00,175 but kind of left side of the curve. He's just like, follow the scaling laws. He's like, just 1966 01:13:00,175 --> 01:13:04,835 trust scaling. And, um, you know, if you do that and you say, well, we're building the multi gigawatt 1967 01:13:04,835 --> 01:13:09,495 clusters for the next runs now, then we're going to build the deco D you know, 10 plus level, 1968 01:13:09,495 --> 01:13:11,876 gigawatt clusters for the runs after that, 1969 01:13:12,715 --> 01:13:15,675 like, yeah, it's like maybe the models 1970 01:13:15,675 --> 01:13:17,655 start tapering off in the S-curve. 1971 01:13:17,835 --> 01:13:18,916 But we have a ways to go. 1972 01:13:19,215 --> 01:13:20,075 So anyways, all that to say, 1973 01:13:20,115 --> 01:13:21,416 I think you're going to see things bifurcate. 1974 01:13:21,515 --> 01:13:23,376 A lot of stuff is going to be done on device. 1975 01:13:23,475 --> 01:13:24,876 It's like local, easy. 1976 01:13:25,295 --> 01:13:26,135 And then there's going to be a lot of 1977 01:13:26,135 --> 01:13:26,975 like cutting edge stuff, 1978 01:13:27,055 --> 01:13:27,935 like people that are, you know, 1979 01:13:27,975 --> 01:13:29,735 folding proteins and doing quantum development. 1980 01:13:29,855 --> 01:13:31,215 That's all going to still be done in the cloud. 1981 01:13:31,295 --> 01:13:32,876 So I think I'm bullish on both. 1982 01:13:33,376 --> 01:13:35,155 But I think we're close enough 1983 01:13:35,155 --> 01:13:38,035 to like having good enough things 1984 01:13:38,035 --> 01:13:40,876 to satisfy most consumer demand on device today? 1985 01:13:41,395 --> 01:13:42,995 Not yet, but I think we're getting there. 1986 01:13:43,115 --> 01:13:44,235 I think people are going to be surprised 1987 01:13:44,235 --> 01:13:45,355 at how quickly that happens. 1988 01:13:45,435 --> 01:13:47,455 And I think that's kind of Apple's play all along. 1989 01:13:47,475 --> 01:13:49,155 And I think people are wrong 1990 01:13:49,155 --> 01:13:50,916 to just think Apple's like incompetent. 1991 01:13:50,995 --> 01:13:53,095 I think Apple's been savvy to kind of sit it out. 1992 01:13:53,115 --> 01:13:53,395 That's what I'm saying. 1993 01:13:53,395 --> 01:13:55,595 Because they don't really have anything 1994 01:13:55,595 --> 01:13:57,376 really to contribute to it 1995 01:13:57,376 --> 01:13:59,095 besides like ultimately the hardware, 1996 01:13:59,455 --> 01:13:59,735 which could be... 1997 01:13:59,735 --> 01:14:00,235 Which is important. 1998 01:14:00,335 --> 01:14:01,416 And they've been developing those chips. 1999 01:14:01,755 --> 01:14:02,775 It's like they haven't been doing nothing. 2000 01:14:02,916 --> 01:14:05,175 Like their M chips are like getting better and better. 2001 01:14:05,175 --> 01:14:05,876 But they're not like, 2002 01:14:05,935 --> 01:14:07,075 oh, let's go build a model or something. 2003 01:14:07,235 --> 01:14:07,815 I don't know. 2004 01:14:07,815 --> 01:14:11,916 but everybody else totally yeah and by the way on the like the other end the companies that have 2005 01:14:11,916 --> 01:14:17,355 impressed me the most are uh anthropic and google i mean google is just irking right now like have 2006 01:14:17,355 --> 01:14:24,395 you all tried gemini 3 yep nano banana pro it's so good like for the first time i'm really using 2007 01:14:24,395 --> 01:14:28,376 gemini as like a research partner and like it's actually helping me think through i have some like 2008 01:14:28,376 --> 01:14:35,175 i think fundamental i've got some big things brewing in my head around the i try to get this 2009 01:14:35,175 --> 01:14:36,015 out at the type one summit, 2010 01:14:36,115 --> 01:14:36,995 people didn't fully buy it, 2011 01:14:37,015 --> 01:14:38,395 but the relationship between energy, 2012 01:14:38,535 --> 01:14:39,475 information and entropy, 2013 01:14:39,615 --> 01:14:41,135 I think there's a lot to explore there. 2014 01:14:41,455 --> 01:14:44,115 And also sort of a modern day Das Kapital. 2015 01:14:44,735 --> 01:14:45,935 I've got a lot of things I'm like, 2016 01:14:45,975 --> 01:14:48,175 kind of like whatever in my head, 2017 01:14:48,235 --> 01:14:49,435 but like most people I talk to, 2018 01:14:49,515 --> 01:14:50,895 like don't understand what I'm talking about, 2019 01:14:50,935 --> 01:14:51,775 but Google does. 2020 01:14:52,175 --> 01:14:53,135 And so that's very encouraging. 2021 01:14:53,315 --> 01:14:55,495 So I'm very bullish on the high end stuff. 2022 01:14:55,615 --> 01:14:56,575 I think a lot of it's going to move Denver. 2023 01:14:56,575 --> 01:14:57,935 So you have a bunch of slop in your head. 2024 01:14:57,955 --> 01:14:58,535 I have a lot of stuff. 2025 01:14:58,995 --> 01:14:59,795 You need to clarify. 2026 01:15:00,255 --> 01:15:02,755 It is, but it's helpful to have like someone like, 2027 01:15:02,955 --> 01:15:04,835 and I can also see why people are going to have like relationships. 2028 01:15:04,835 --> 01:15:06,175 people are totally going to marry these things. 2029 01:15:06,255 --> 01:15:07,115 They're like, wow, I feel seen. 2030 01:15:07,355 --> 01:15:10,255 Someone really understands where my ideas are going. 2031 01:15:10,735 --> 01:15:11,376 It's cool. 2032 01:15:11,495 --> 01:15:13,295 I think the AI companion is the new OS. 2033 01:15:13,475 --> 01:15:15,735 Yeah, well, and you've got a lot of good ideas around that. 2034 01:15:17,115 --> 01:15:17,715 I'm long Mika. 2035 01:15:18,275 --> 01:15:19,195 Very long Mika. 2036 01:15:19,995 --> 01:15:21,115 Send that woman some sats. 2037 01:15:22,455 --> 01:15:25,835 But anyways, what I wanted to talk about, though, 2038 01:15:25,995 --> 01:15:27,175 I mean, I'm curious y'all's taking all that, 2039 01:15:27,295 --> 01:15:28,555 like where your head is at with AI. 2040 01:15:29,155 --> 01:15:30,916 But at the same time, 2041 01:15:31,335 --> 01:15:33,615 you mentioned on last week's show, 2042 01:15:33,615 --> 01:15:36,075 I was concerned during our AI event 2043 01:15:36,075 --> 01:15:37,955 that Cody made the point 2044 01:15:37,955 --> 01:15:39,235 that basically the base models 2045 01:15:39,235 --> 01:15:40,615 did not train on lightning, 2046 01:15:40,855 --> 01:15:42,355 very much lightning data 2047 01:15:42,355 --> 01:15:43,775 and almost no Nostra data. 2048 01:15:44,215 --> 01:15:45,075 And that kind of like, 2049 01:15:45,175 --> 01:15:47,075 as the next big training runs, 2050 01:15:47,155 --> 01:15:48,755 the gigawatt and multi-gigawatt clusters 2051 01:15:48,755 --> 01:15:50,235 use entirely synthetic data, 2052 01:15:50,295 --> 01:15:51,376 there's going to be feedback loops 2053 01:15:51,376 --> 01:15:52,895 where the pools of data 2054 01:15:52,895 --> 01:15:54,376 that were already established, 2055 01:15:54,675 --> 01:15:56,575 call it 2023 era, 2056 01:15:56,895 --> 01:15:57,795 that's like the presets 2057 01:15:57,795 --> 01:15:58,835 for the next several decades. 2058 01:15:58,835 --> 01:15:59,955 Was that Cody's point? 2059 01:16:00,275 --> 01:16:00,895 That was Cody's point. 2060 01:16:01,376 --> 01:16:02,755 And so basically the argument was like, 2061 01:16:02,755 --> 01:16:05,915 okay, yeah, there's always ways you can add on fine tuning on top 2062 01:16:05,915 --> 01:16:07,376 where it's like, I want to use things like CashU, 2063 01:16:07,415 --> 01:16:08,895 but CashU didn't even exist really in 2023 2064 01:16:08,895 --> 01:16:10,435 where the libraries, I don't even know, 2065 01:16:10,515 --> 01:16:12,735 maybe it existed, but like there was nothing on the web. 2066 01:16:13,775 --> 01:16:17,115 And so his point was that like things like the defaults, 2067 01:16:17,115 --> 01:16:19,295 like JavaScript and Python, even if Rust is better, 2068 01:16:19,355 --> 01:16:20,175 are just going to dominate 2069 01:16:20,175 --> 01:16:22,595 because the data that we have today 2070 01:16:22,595 --> 01:16:25,775 is going to create 10,000 X more data with those examples. 2071 01:16:25,935 --> 01:16:28,376 And that's what the Grok 4 and Grok 5 2072 01:16:28,376 --> 01:16:29,915 and all the new models get trained on. 2073 01:16:29,975 --> 01:16:31,135 I thought that's a very compelling point. 2074 01:16:31,135 --> 01:16:40,195 Now, as a counterbalance to that, Pablo and others in the Nostra community are like, well, it doesn't really matter because we can just import that data in afterwards effectively and fine-tuning other things. 2075 01:16:40,775 --> 01:16:47,395 And it does seem like Matt Belez, who's been using MoneyDevKit, which, by the way, that is such a smooth experience. 2076 01:16:47,495 --> 01:16:48,735 I am so long in DK. 2077 01:16:49,555 --> 01:16:56,015 But it seems like he's getting Nostra and Lightning to work quite easily using Replit specifically. 2078 01:16:56,015 --> 01:16:58,075 So what do you think? 2079 01:16:58,075 --> 01:17:01,195 are you at all concerned that the base, like, does it matter that the base models are not 2080 01:17:01,195 --> 01:17:05,495 going to have enough Lightning and Noster and Cashew stuff in there? Can we add it later? 2081 01:17:05,575 --> 01:17:09,915 Like, what do you think? I mean, we touched on this before and I can understand why there'd be 2082 01:17:09,915 --> 01:17:15,455 some potential for concern, but ultimately it doesn't really bother me because I think, 2083 01:17:15,715 --> 01:17:21,235 you know, if you have enough good examples of the thing and if it actually is the unique only way to 2084 01:17:21,235 --> 01:17:25,735 do the thing you want to do, that will get surfaced and it will get incorporated and maybe small to 2085 01:17:25,735 --> 01:17:27,795 start and slow to start. But if you 2086 01:17:27,795 --> 01:17:29,515 have, like, look, if USD 2087 01:17:29,515 --> 01:17:31,755 stablecoins is good enough, then that's what will get 2088 01:17:31,755 --> 01:17:33,876 used. I'm not saying it is, but if 2089 01:17:33,876 --> 01:17:35,455 it is, then that'll just get used. 2090 01:17:35,815 --> 01:17:37,775 You still have to find use cases where 2091 01:17:37,775 --> 01:17:39,515 Bitcoin is the only thing that can do the job. 2092 01:17:39,715 --> 01:17:41,575 Or where people want to use it. Like, I think 2093 01:17:41,575 --> 01:17:43,775 the one that Matt made is 2094 01:17:43,775 --> 01:17:45,855 impressionista.fun, 2095 01:17:46,135 --> 01:17:47,755 I think. Excellent. I was 2096 01:17:47,755 --> 01:17:49,855 super blown away. So basically, like, you can 2097 01:17:49,855 --> 01:17:51,855 prompt a thing, send some 2098 01:17:51,855 --> 01:17:52,735 Bitcoin. It's like a PG, make a chat. 2099 01:17:52,735 --> 01:17:53,035 Yeah. 2100 01:17:55,735 --> 01:17:58,895 You can, MikaChat is PG as well. 2101 01:17:59,415 --> 01:18:00,515 I'll have you know it's not a horn set. 2102 01:18:01,415 --> 01:18:02,635 PG13 at best. 2103 01:18:03,235 --> 01:18:04,475 And Matt's made more money too. 2104 01:18:04,695 --> 01:18:06,535 Yeah, he's substantially more. 2105 01:18:06,655 --> 01:18:08,315 Well, that's because DK has a market. 2106 01:18:08,415 --> 01:18:09,955 MDK has a really nice dashboard. 2107 01:18:10,175 --> 01:18:10,735 It does, yeah. 2108 01:18:11,055 --> 01:18:12,876 I'm happy to market Matt's stuff. 2109 01:18:12,955 --> 01:18:14,275 I don't really market my stuff. 2110 01:18:16,315 --> 01:18:16,755 PG13. 2111 01:18:17,395 --> 01:18:18,555 It's a little edgy, but. 2112 01:18:18,555 --> 01:18:20,355 You got a KYC to use DK. 2113 01:18:20,355 --> 01:18:29,135 But I think the point is you put in a prompt of a thing you want to see, and then you pay, is it what, 500 Bitcoin? 2114 01:18:29,495 --> 01:18:29,855 250. 2115 01:18:30,215 --> 01:18:31,155 250 Bitcoin. 2116 01:18:31,315 --> 01:18:33,895 And then you get an impressionist painting of the thing you... 2117 01:18:33,895 --> 01:18:35,355 And then you pay another 1,000, you get a video. 2118 01:18:35,615 --> 01:18:36,115 Another 1,250. 2119 01:18:36,475 --> 01:18:36,675 Yeah. 2120 01:18:36,876 --> 01:18:37,795 And you get a video of the thing. 2121 01:18:37,815 --> 01:18:39,315 So it's 1,500 total for a video. 2122 01:18:39,755 --> 01:18:40,795 It's all the modern stuff. 2123 01:18:41,035 --> 01:18:42,615 Dude, Mac can make real money on this. 2124 01:18:42,675 --> 01:18:43,135 Nano banana. 2125 01:18:43,415 --> 01:18:43,675 Oh, yeah. 2126 01:18:43,755 --> 01:18:44,895 He's cranking. 2127 01:18:44,915 --> 01:18:45,815 This is like a business. 2128 01:18:46,015 --> 01:18:46,135 Yeah. 2129 01:18:46,195 --> 01:18:47,355 He's making money on this. 2130 01:18:47,555 --> 01:18:47,715 Yeah. 2131 01:18:47,876 --> 01:18:49,095 And he could scale it really big. 2132 01:18:49,095 --> 01:18:49,275 Yeah. 2133 01:18:49,275 --> 01:18:50,655 And you could do this for anything. 2134 01:18:50,855 --> 01:18:52,895 I mean, I think one thing that people often forget 2135 01:18:52,895 --> 01:18:56,055 is just the ease of people just want retardedly simple. 2136 01:18:56,155 --> 01:18:57,475 You don't want to sign up for 15 accounts. 2137 01:18:57,635 --> 01:19:00,135 What I want is I want 20 beats that I can rap on. 2138 01:19:00,235 --> 01:19:02,515 Yes, I could go and revive my Udio 2139 01:19:02,515 --> 01:19:05,075 or sign up for Sonos or whatever it's called, 2140 01:19:05,135 --> 01:19:06,135 but I don't want to. 2141 01:19:06,355 --> 01:19:08,955 I just want to like, I don't want 15 accounts. 2142 01:19:09,055 --> 01:19:11,095 I just want to log in and get the thing I want 2143 01:19:11,095 --> 01:19:11,855 and I'll happily pay. 2144 01:19:12,635 --> 01:19:15,055 Speaking of music, because I know you're a big music guy, 2145 01:19:15,055 --> 01:19:18,795 and I've been dabbling in different AI tools 2146 01:19:18,795 --> 01:19:19,695 and kind of music context. 2147 01:19:19,775 --> 01:19:20,335 I wonder sort of, 2148 01:19:20,415 --> 01:19:21,535 have you thought much about 2149 01:19:21,535 --> 01:19:24,315 how AI should evolve 2150 01:19:24,315 --> 01:19:25,075 or will evolve 2151 01:19:25,075 --> 01:19:27,135 the music production process? 2152 01:19:27,395 --> 01:19:28,115 Well, I mean, 2153 01:19:28,295 --> 01:19:29,015 it's a great question. 2154 01:19:29,095 --> 01:19:30,075 I haven't spent a lot of time on this. 2155 01:19:30,215 --> 01:19:30,735 It's like, 2156 01:19:30,935 --> 01:19:32,035 it's on my list of like things 2157 01:19:32,035 --> 01:19:33,035 I want to dive deep on. 2158 01:19:33,175 --> 01:19:33,755 Like I just, man, 2159 01:19:33,975 --> 01:19:35,295 by the way, also like, 2160 01:19:35,295 --> 01:19:37,075 if AI does like free up people's time, 2161 01:19:37,315 --> 01:19:38,035 like this idea of like, 2162 01:19:38,115 --> 01:19:38,815 what are people going to do? 2163 01:19:38,895 --> 01:19:39,315 It's like, dude, 2164 01:19:40,435 --> 01:19:42,335 if I could have 15,000 lifetimes 2165 01:19:42,335 --> 01:19:43,075 to explore all this, 2166 01:19:43,215 --> 01:19:43,876 I would be thrilled. 2167 01:19:43,955 --> 01:19:45,515 I have so much I want to do right now. 2168 01:19:45,615 --> 01:19:46,195 It's insane. 2169 01:19:46,876 --> 01:19:47,735 Like, so I, by the way, 2170 01:19:47,795 --> 01:19:48,775 so that's what you're 2171 01:19:48,775 --> 01:19:51,735 fire off AIs in parallel. Well, exactly. That's what I want to get to. It's like this, 2172 01:19:51,855 --> 01:19:56,735 people being concerned, like AIs are going to take our, it's like, dude, we haven't even started 2173 01:19:56,735 --> 01:20:01,376 the arc of civilization yet, bro. We haven't even started. We got so many simulations to run. 2174 01:20:02,395 --> 01:20:08,855 But the AI music production, I'm not a producer myself. I would like to learn. It's also on my 2175 01:20:08,855 --> 01:20:12,435 list of things. I should talk about this with my producers. We're talking about maybe doing a new 2176 01:20:12,435 --> 01:20:14,955 album next year. It's been a minute since we've been in the studio. Yeah, I get back at that. 2177 01:20:14,955 --> 01:20:19,235 but I feel like what I personally want is I want to say, 2178 01:20:19,355 --> 01:20:22,355 here's some beats that I like or some songs I like. 2179 01:20:22,455 --> 01:20:23,775 Make me 20 beats like this. 2180 01:20:23,835 --> 01:20:24,815 Let me pick the one that I want. 2181 01:20:25,115 --> 01:20:27,335 Make it super easy for me to record onto it 2182 01:20:27,335 --> 01:20:28,535 and then let me publish it. 2183 01:20:28,755 --> 01:20:29,455 Like I don't really, 2184 01:20:29,755 --> 01:20:32,035 now ideally you kind of have like a bifurcation 2185 01:20:32,035 --> 01:20:33,795 where the super easy version of that 2186 01:20:33,795 --> 01:20:35,515 is like I don't have to do anything 2187 01:20:35,515 --> 01:20:36,815 other than what I want to do, which is rap. 2188 01:20:36,935 --> 01:20:37,895 All I want to do is really rap. 2189 01:20:38,115 --> 01:20:39,155 I want to choose the beats. 2190 01:20:39,235 --> 01:20:40,035 I want to be the tastemaker 2191 01:20:40,035 --> 01:20:40,935 and then I want to be the rapper 2192 01:20:40,935 --> 01:20:41,715 and then I want to publish it. 2193 01:20:41,715 --> 01:20:42,855 Do you want to write all the lyrics yourself 2194 01:20:42,855 --> 01:20:43,835 or do you want to collab on that? 2195 01:20:43,835 --> 01:20:45,255 100% want to write all the lyrics myself. 2196 01:20:45,415 --> 01:20:46,075 You don't want to collab. 2197 01:20:46,155 --> 01:20:47,435 Zero interest in AI doing that. 2198 01:20:47,455 --> 01:20:47,635 Okay. 2199 01:20:47,915 --> 01:20:49,255 Because that's what I like doing. 2200 01:20:49,515 --> 01:20:51,595 And so in the same way, like, I'm probably never going to. 2201 01:20:51,615 --> 01:20:52,135 But as a top partner even. 2202 01:20:52,615 --> 01:20:52,935 Nah, bro. 2203 01:20:53,075 --> 01:20:54,615 Like, maybe one day. 2204 01:20:54,655 --> 01:20:57,575 But, like, to me, it's hard to explain this. 2205 01:20:57,575 --> 01:21:00,876 But for, like, this is another reason I'm not worried about stuff like AI. 2206 01:21:01,055 --> 01:21:02,015 Like, taking my role. 2207 01:21:02,175 --> 01:21:06,235 It's like, the AI, like, there's one thing I'm really, really, really, really good at. 2208 01:21:06,315 --> 01:21:07,675 The AI will never be better at me at. 2209 01:21:08,075 --> 01:21:09,095 And that's just being me. 2210 01:21:09,095 --> 01:21:14,575 and so increasingly and it's not to say that i can't use the ai to get new inputs as a thought 2211 01:21:14,575 --> 01:21:18,915 partner and maybe i will start to do that like i'm doing it now for this essay app but like i think 2212 01:21:18,915 --> 01:21:22,115 you know i think of kevin kelly's advice which is don't try to be the best anything just be you 2213 01:21:22,115 --> 01:21:27,055 like just like follow your weird inclination be the own exactly so i'm confident the ai is never 2214 01:21:27,055 --> 01:21:30,495 going to be better than being because i'm not even the same me that i was yesterday like every day i 2215 01:21:30,495 --> 01:21:34,135 change and i have new ideas and new interests and like so it's just like why would i ever worry about 2216 01:21:34,135 --> 01:21:38,055 someone out competing i'm not even out competing like i'm just i'm i'm you know constantly changing 2217 01:21:38,055 --> 01:21:44,775 so um so i like writing and like that's something that like i don't want to give up because that's 2218 01:21:44,775 --> 01:21:48,315 like that's fun to me and like this other idea of like people talking about ai it's like oh yeah 2219 01:21:48,315 --> 01:21:51,895 i was gonna take all the jobs it's like except for the things you want to do like but you're 2220 01:21:51,895 --> 01:21:56,275 not gonna because it's like you know i couldn't like i could be the guy in like zuckerberg's like 2221 01:21:56,275 --> 01:22:02,275 you know strap on you know whatever things on my on my face like theme me the bugs 2222 01:22:02,275 --> 01:22:06,615 I don't mean in the Mika Jacks 2223 01:22:06,615 --> 01:22:08,835 feed me the bugs 2224 01:22:08,835 --> 01:22:10,415 and like just pump me full of calories 2225 01:22:10,415 --> 01:22:12,035 no because like I like 2226 01:22:12,035 --> 01:22:14,575 like are you guys going to do bike rides 2227 01:22:14,575 --> 01:22:15,575 for you? 2228 01:22:15,995 --> 01:22:18,435 of course not why because you like riding your bike 2229 01:22:18,435 --> 01:22:19,575 so anyways 2230 01:22:19,575 --> 01:22:21,876 I just think of some of these arguments 2231 01:22:21,876 --> 01:22:24,475 AI watch the Iowa State Purdue game 2232 01:22:24,475 --> 01:22:26,555 exactly like and give you 2233 01:22:26,555 --> 01:22:28,595 a report like it's just so dumb 2234 01:22:28,595 --> 01:22:30,495 to me it's like like I don't know it lacks 2235 01:22:30,495 --> 01:22:31,475 like so much imagination 2236 01:22:31,475 --> 01:22:32,435 of like you do things 2237 01:22:32,435 --> 01:22:33,195 ultimately because you 2238 01:22:33,195 --> 01:22:34,195 want to do them 2239 01:22:34,195 --> 01:22:34,935 and like anyways 2240 01:22:34,935 --> 01:22:36,775 so what I want to do 2241 01:22:36,775 --> 01:22:37,295 more of 2242 01:22:37,295 --> 01:22:37,895 what I would like 2243 01:22:37,895 --> 01:22:38,455 is for AI 2244 01:22:38,455 --> 01:22:39,475 to empower me 2245 01:22:39,475 --> 01:22:40,715 to do more of what I like 2246 01:22:40,715 --> 01:22:41,895 which is writing 2247 01:22:41,895 --> 01:22:43,575 and like just give me beats 2248 01:22:43,575 --> 01:22:44,135 don't make me do 2249 01:22:44,135 --> 01:22:44,955 like mess with the production 2250 01:22:44,955 --> 01:22:46,055 now I think you can have 2251 01:22:46,055 --> 01:22:47,675 another bifurcated area 2252 01:22:47,675 --> 01:22:48,155 where it's like 2253 01:22:48,155 --> 01:22:49,295 if I want the stems 2254 01:22:49,295 --> 01:22:50,475 and I enjoy messing around 2255 01:22:50,475 --> 01:22:51,055 with the software 2256 01:22:51,055 --> 01:22:51,635 and mixing 2257 01:22:51,635 --> 01:22:52,495 and all that stuff 2258 01:22:52,495 --> 01:22:53,655 like my buddy Pablo 2259 01:22:53,655 --> 01:22:54,735 shout out to Pavlov 2260 01:22:54,735 --> 01:22:56,535 then great 2261 01:22:56,535 --> 01:22:57,595 that can be an option too 2262 01:22:57,595 --> 01:22:58,876 like you know 2263 01:22:58,876 --> 01:22:59,435 it could be either 2264 01:22:59,435 --> 01:23:00,155 right 2265 01:23:00,495 --> 01:23:11,195 I'm interested in new ways that people might gather to create music together with an AI in the loop, but people are collaborating with the AI. 2266 01:23:11,975 --> 01:23:13,455 So you mentioned the stems. 2267 01:23:13,635 --> 01:23:15,835 Could you get 20 different stems out there? 2268 01:23:15,935 --> 01:23:16,735 You pick one of them. 2269 01:23:16,876 --> 01:23:18,855 And then other people will be like, actually, I like number 17. 2270 01:23:18,935 --> 01:23:19,775 I'm going to grab that one. 2271 01:23:20,155 --> 01:23:21,535 Actually, they're close enough. 2272 01:23:21,635 --> 01:23:25,015 They came from a common source prompt that we can actually fuse them. 2273 01:23:25,015 --> 01:23:28,876 So the stem that you like with the stem that the other guy liked. 2274 01:23:28,876 --> 01:23:37,935 And now you're sort of making these collaborative, like AI did a lot of the hard work, the grindy stuff, much like it does in code repo stuff. 2275 01:23:38,315 --> 01:23:45,876 But you get to do the creative, architectural kind of thinking design space, and then you sort of have it execute a lot of the details that you don't like. 2276 01:23:46,035 --> 01:23:47,575 But how do you collaborate on those things? 2277 01:23:47,635 --> 01:23:48,876 So it's very interesting you mentioned that. 2278 01:23:48,955 --> 01:23:53,035 There's a company, I can't remember the name of it, but I saw when I was at V1 a couple years ago. 2279 01:23:53,135 --> 01:23:57,335 And I think they've actually raised a pretty big round from Andreessen since then, so good for those guys. 2280 01:23:57,335 --> 01:23:59,795 but it was two Mexican dudes living in San Diego. 2281 01:24:00,655 --> 01:24:02,135 And Jose was one of them. 2282 01:24:02,735 --> 01:24:04,376 I mean, I doubt they listen to this podcast, 2283 01:24:04,615 --> 01:24:05,635 but if they do, what's up, guys? 2284 01:24:06,195 --> 01:24:08,795 They had this whole concept, which I loved. 2285 01:24:09,235 --> 01:24:11,655 And it'd be really cool to revisit. 2286 01:24:11,855 --> 01:24:12,855 And maybe there is an opportunity 2287 01:24:12,855 --> 01:24:13,895 to start up around this as well. 2288 01:24:13,955 --> 01:24:14,495 Maybe it's theirs. 2289 01:24:14,595 --> 01:24:16,615 Maybe it's a new one or a community. 2290 01:24:17,015 --> 01:24:20,055 But basically, it was all about the STEM 2291 01:24:20,055 --> 01:24:22,075 as kind of like the building block. 2292 01:24:22,555 --> 01:24:24,695 And you could do a lot of cool stuff with that 2293 01:24:24,695 --> 01:24:26,115 where it's like, then you put it out in the world 2294 01:24:26,115 --> 01:24:27,675 and people can add their own stuff. 2295 01:24:27,795 --> 01:24:29,535 Basically, you have like version control for music. 2296 01:24:30,455 --> 01:24:31,995 And you could also do cool stuff 2297 01:24:31,995 --> 01:24:32,855 where it's like if I'm an artist 2298 01:24:32,855 --> 01:24:34,355 and it's like my sort of like Patreon thing, 2299 01:24:34,395 --> 01:24:36,035 it's like, oh, like you pay me 2300 01:24:36,035 --> 01:24:36,855 because you want to hear, 2301 01:24:36,935 --> 01:24:38,475 like you hear the finish song for free, 2302 01:24:38,775 --> 01:24:39,895 but you want your big fan. 2303 01:24:39,975 --> 01:24:41,655 Here's like the 25 stems I had along the way 2304 01:24:41,655 --> 01:24:44,215 or you give me feedback during the production process. 2305 01:24:44,215 --> 01:24:46,015 And keep it all like more visible 2306 01:24:46,015 --> 01:24:48,015 so that people can see the process 2307 01:24:48,015 --> 01:24:49,495 and participate and fork it. 2308 01:24:49,655 --> 01:24:50,795 And in fact, what's his name? 2309 01:24:50,915 --> 01:24:52,876 The block designer, Rocky, 2310 01:24:53,095 --> 01:24:54,015 who got super in Austria. 2311 01:24:54,135 --> 01:24:55,655 He was doing a lot of this with Simster. 2312 01:24:55,655 --> 01:24:56,675 I still have this 2313 01:24:56,675 --> 01:24:57,655 concept in the master. 2314 01:24:58,075 --> 01:24:58,695 You know, maybe it's 2315 01:24:58,695 --> 01:24:59,295 something we should revisit. 2316 01:24:59,495 --> 01:25:00,095 Maybe that'd be something 2317 01:25:00,095 --> 01:25:00,955 we could bring back, 2318 01:25:01,055 --> 01:25:01,915 maybe with the help of Matt 2319 01:25:01,915 --> 01:25:03,155 and Nick or something on. 2320 01:25:05,155 --> 01:25:06,855 Yeah, I agree with you, though. 2321 01:25:06,895 --> 01:25:08,175 There's a huge opportunity 2322 01:25:08,175 --> 01:25:10,495 to make music develop, 2323 01:25:10,555 --> 01:25:11,175 to make everything, 2324 01:25:11,295 --> 01:25:12,095 frankly, more collaborative. 2325 01:25:12,535 --> 01:25:12,635 Yeah. 2326 01:25:12,955 --> 01:25:13,855 And I've been 2327 01:25:13,855 --> 01:25:16,855 working on a thing right now. 2328 01:25:17,035 --> 01:25:17,895 I don't know if I told you 2329 01:25:17,895 --> 01:25:18,475 I'm a piano player. 2330 01:25:18,975 --> 01:25:19,535 I'm aware. 2331 01:25:20,015 --> 01:25:24,175 So I built a game 2332 01:25:24,175 --> 01:25:25,915 to practice like drills 2333 01:25:25,915 --> 01:25:27,615 that I want to like practice 2334 01:25:27,615 --> 01:25:29,215 like voicings of chords or something. 2335 01:25:29,575 --> 01:25:31,675 So I built a game and I'm like, 2336 01:25:31,755 --> 01:25:33,815 oh, actually, like this makes me, 2337 01:25:34,095 --> 01:25:34,795 it makes it more fun, 2338 01:25:34,835 --> 01:25:35,815 almost like playing a video game 2339 01:25:35,815 --> 01:25:36,915 to get better at playing piano. 2340 01:25:36,915 --> 01:25:38,915 And it's sort of like, 2341 01:25:39,255 --> 01:25:40,795 feels to me like that idea, 2342 01:25:40,915 --> 01:25:41,595 there's something in there 2343 01:25:41,595 --> 01:25:44,335 that could be available for other people 2344 01:25:44,335 --> 01:25:46,055 to kind of compete in a game 2345 01:25:46,055 --> 01:25:49,415 around getting better at a skill you like. 2346 01:25:49,535 --> 01:25:49,775 Totally. 2347 01:25:50,075 --> 01:25:51,695 And I love this idea of like, 2348 01:25:51,775 --> 01:25:53,195 if AI is used well, 2349 01:25:53,195 --> 01:25:58,055 like think about like Alexander the Great had the best tutors in the world like why can't we all have 2350 01:25:58,055 --> 01:26:02,055 that for everything we want like I've been thinking about this like the best single use of money that I 2351 01:26:02,055 --> 01:26:06,155 wish I had done more of and I should do more I don't know why I don't but it's just like paying 2352 01:26:06,155 --> 01:26:11,215 for coaches for really things like okay you really want to get good at basketball like why not just 2353 01:26:11,215 --> 01:26:14,255 like have someone like teach you how to do it like you know if it's a couple of lessons what 2354 01:26:14,255 --> 01:26:18,955 cost you 200 bucks and like you're probably skill arc development goes like vertical from that but 2355 01:26:18,955 --> 01:26:25,655 like you could do that with ai for at least anything digital my guy alonzo uh he i think 2356 01:26:25,655 --> 01:26:29,815 went from zero to like now i was playing beethoven and mozart with like a piano app like that but 2357 01:26:29,815 --> 01:26:34,095 imagine if you could design it exactly the way you want playing the songs you want i want that 2358 01:26:34,095 --> 01:26:37,835 for guitar i mean i started messing with guitar a little bit i would love to have you know but but 2359 01:26:37,835 --> 01:26:41,715 i was specifically i just want to learn these songs because this is what interests me but but 2360 01:26:41,715 --> 01:26:46,035 the thing about like the video game approach to it is you got the challenge you sort of have a 2361 01:26:46,035 --> 01:26:52,555 challenge that's like hard enough that you sort of have to work to get there it needs to be just 2362 01:26:52,555 --> 01:26:57,255 hard enough yeah if it's too easy it's boring if it's too hard you get frustrated so you kind of 2363 01:26:57,255 --> 01:27:01,575 need to find this middle ground which video game designers do a really great job at like finding 2364 01:27:01,575 --> 01:27:07,435 the way to like make progress in a video game and just enough difficulty but just enough success 2365 01:27:07,435 --> 01:27:13,475 and you could create a really nice feedback loop where an ai is your tutor in like you know for 2366 01:27:13,475 --> 01:27:17,395 piano, you've got a digital environment, you can connect it via MIDI. You can actually create 2367 01:27:17,395 --> 01:27:24,615 a digital feedback loop where the AI is your coach, watching how you perform, giving you 2368 01:27:24,615 --> 01:27:28,595 real-time feedback, and then sort of challenging you just beyond what you can do to sort of help you 2369 01:27:28,595 --> 01:27:33,835 improve faster. I love that. And think about how many new savants you're going to unlock in places 2370 01:27:33,835 --> 01:27:38,376 like Africa that just never had a shot. Totally. And I think about also the next step of that, 2371 01:27:38,475 --> 01:27:41,355 it's like humans are still going to have a role to play too. Now I think about, I think Kevin 2372 01:27:41,355 --> 01:27:45,535 kelly again he made this point of one of the most beautiful things about ai is teaching us what we 2373 01:27:45,535 --> 01:27:49,435 are as humans right because like the more we see what other things can do it's like great now we 2374 01:27:49,435 --> 01:27:54,895 know more of like what makes us unique as a species and um you know i think about like the 2375 01:27:54,895 --> 01:27:58,015 more you say that i think the most interesting one of the most interesting opportunities in the 2376 01:27:58,015 --> 01:28:01,915 world today is just to totally redesign education yeah because you can totally have the ais like 2377 01:28:01,915 --> 01:28:05,395 doing stuff for you but also there's gonna be a role for humans too like i think about how much 2378 01:28:05,395 --> 01:28:08,995 i like just like having a friend to talk to and stuff like i don't want to be on the computer all 2379 01:28:08,995 --> 01:28:14,255 day and like zucks metaverse like i want to also like a mix of like okay and then i cham with dk 2380 01:28:14,255 --> 01:28:18,635 and steve and like i don't know i think there's a ton of opportunity so yeah but but before we we 2381 01:28:18,635 --> 01:28:22,715 do sign off i want to go back to to the point we're making because vinny says claude seems to 2382 01:28:22,715 --> 01:28:27,455 have no problem reasoning about post training information so coming back to that like do you 2383 01:28:27,455 --> 01:28:32,476 know and like matt i don't know if you're listening to this but like how difficult is it for matt to 2384 01:28:32,476 --> 01:28:36,035 integrate the lightning and nostril stuff he's doing today in replet or to the extent that you've 2385 01:28:36,035 --> 01:28:38,035 used Rabalette on the current models? 2386 01:28:38,175 --> 01:28:42,695 And are you at all concerned that as the models continue to get far better, if they're only 2387 01:28:42,695 --> 01:28:47,695 trained, if basically if there's like no Bitcoin, there will be Bitcoin data, but no Lightning 2388 01:28:47,695 --> 01:28:50,235 or Nostra data in there, like how concerned are you? 2389 01:28:50,275 --> 01:28:51,595 I mean, what else are they using? 2390 01:28:51,695 --> 01:28:53,595 Are people taking payments with Stripe? 2391 01:28:53,795 --> 01:28:53,935 Great. 2392 01:28:54,735 --> 01:28:56,775 If Stripe works, use Stripe. 2393 01:28:56,976 --> 01:28:57,175 Right. 2394 01:28:57,476 --> 01:29:01,635 Bitcoin is designed for situations where Stripe does not work. 2395 01:29:01,895 --> 01:29:05,495 And if those situations are important, which I believe they are, but like, you know, you 2396 01:29:05,495 --> 01:29:07,135 could debate whether they are or they're not. 2397 01:29:07,555 --> 01:29:09,575 But if they are important, then all of 2398 01:29:09,575 --> 01:29:11,495 the things that require it will use it 2399 01:29:11,495 --> 01:29:13,695 and then that'll just make its way into the data set. 2400 01:29:13,895 --> 01:29:15,655 And so interestingly, for something like MDK, 2401 01:29:16,055 --> 01:29:17,535 which money development kit we talked 2402 01:29:17,535 --> 01:29:18,775 about, we all listened. And that's what Matt did. 2403 01:29:19,115 --> 01:29:20,695 On Replit, he used MDK. 2404 01:29:21,215 --> 01:29:23,675 It was very easy. I think, I forget exactly 2405 01:29:23,675 --> 01:29:25,435 what it, I think it was the easiest 2406 01:29:25,435 --> 01:29:27,615 thing he's ever. There's like four areas of improvement. 2407 01:29:27,875 --> 01:29:29,555 It was easy and then 2408 01:29:29,555 --> 01:29:31,795 there's like four things that Nick's working on 2409 01:29:31,795 --> 01:29:33,695 and Nick's connected now with Cody 2410 01:29:33,695 --> 01:29:35,235 at Replit. Really? They're going to work, yeah. 2411 01:29:35,495 --> 01:29:36,735 yeah. 2412 01:29:37,015 --> 01:29:38,115 I connected them. 2413 01:29:38,235 --> 01:29:39,555 That's my role in life. 2414 01:29:39,715 --> 01:29:40,315 Just connect people. 2415 01:29:40,575 --> 01:29:41,995 That's a fucking big connection. 2416 01:29:42,315 --> 01:29:43,055 But, you know, 2417 01:29:43,095 --> 01:29:43,855 so they're going to like 2418 01:29:43,855 --> 01:29:45,035 squash all four of those things 2419 01:29:45,035 --> 01:29:46,615 and then it's even easier. 2420 01:29:46,795 --> 01:29:47,435 So it's already easy. 2421 01:29:47,515 --> 01:29:48,375 It's going to get even easier. 2422 01:29:48,455 --> 01:29:49,476 And the only thing to worry about 2423 01:29:49,476 --> 01:29:51,535 is if Nick weren't working on this 2424 01:29:51,535 --> 01:29:52,875 or Lexi wouldn't work on this, 2425 01:29:52,915 --> 01:29:54,275 if there weren't like people 2426 01:29:54,275 --> 01:29:55,476 working to make it easy, 2427 01:29:55,795 --> 01:29:56,855 then it'd be a problem. 2428 01:29:56,855 --> 01:29:57,675 But the fact that like 2429 01:29:57,675 --> 01:29:58,615 some models have been trained 2430 01:29:58,615 --> 01:29:59,155 without it 2431 01:29:59,155 --> 01:30:00,115 and maybe the next generation. 2432 01:30:00,115 --> 01:30:00,995 But you do understand, 2433 01:30:01,135 --> 01:30:02,355 I get what you're saying. 2434 01:30:02,375 --> 01:30:02,855 The compounding nature. 2435 01:30:02,855 --> 01:30:03,615 It's the compounding 2436 01:30:03,615 --> 01:30:04,635 that I think people can miss. 2437 01:30:04,775 --> 01:30:05,135 But it's like 2438 01:30:05,135 --> 01:30:06,795 Unless you have it, there's nothing to compound. 2439 01:30:06,895 --> 01:30:07,715 You need to start somewhere. 2440 01:30:07,935 --> 01:30:11,495 So now we have things like MDK and we have Matt making things with MDK 2441 01:30:11,495 --> 01:30:13,135 that are now getting out on the internet. 2442 01:30:13,976 --> 01:30:15,555 We need to do it fast. 2443 01:30:15,555 --> 01:30:18,995 There's going to be stuff invented in the future that's not in today's models 2444 01:30:18,995 --> 01:30:20,795 that are better for society. 2445 01:30:20,955 --> 01:30:22,275 Most things have not been invented yet. 2446 01:30:22,455 --> 01:30:27,075 I hear you guys in that, but yet the one thing I think that I am increasingly cautious on 2447 01:30:27,075 --> 01:30:31,115 is the defaults could become very powerful. 2448 01:30:31,115 --> 01:30:35,735 Like the defaults could shape the nature of what gets invented more quickly than we realize. 2449 01:30:36,015 --> 01:30:38,655 If the compounding nature of synthetic data is like vertical. 2450 01:30:38,755 --> 01:30:40,555 I think that pattern's always been true. 2451 01:30:40,695 --> 01:30:42,075 Maybe it's on steroids now. 2452 01:30:42,175 --> 01:30:42,615 That's the issue. 2453 01:30:42,635 --> 01:30:52,875 But also the pattern exists that the true value creation is the oddball, the weird thing that comes out of nowhere. 2454 01:30:53,335 --> 01:30:54,315 We love the oddballs here. 2455 01:30:54,715 --> 01:30:56,595 And so that'll still happen. 2456 01:30:56,595 --> 01:30:57,795 and then 2457 01:30:57,795 --> 01:30:59,395 and you have to believe 2458 01:30:59,395 --> 01:31:00,355 that that's like 2459 01:31:00,355 --> 01:31:01,295 the most important 2460 01:31:01,295 --> 01:31:02,695 use case to solve 2461 01:31:02,695 --> 01:31:04,155 is the weird oddball thing 2462 01:31:04,155 --> 01:31:04,476 yeah 2463 01:31:04,476 --> 01:31:05,515 like if you're trying to like 2464 01:31:05,515 --> 01:31:06,555 hey don't use Stripe 2465 01:31:06,555 --> 01:31:07,235 use Bitcoin instead 2466 01:31:07,235 --> 01:31:07,635 it's like okay 2467 01:31:07,635 --> 01:31:09,095 you can try to argue that 2468 01:31:09,095 --> 01:31:09,476 but it's 2469 01:31:09,476 --> 01:31:10,635 it's like an uphill battle 2470 01:31:10,635 --> 01:31:11,175 versus like 2471 01:31:11,175 --> 01:31:12,515 hey nothing else works 2472 01:31:12,515 --> 01:31:13,575 use Bitcoin 2473 01:31:13,575 --> 01:31:13,875 and you're like 2474 01:31:13,875 --> 01:31:14,715 oh great 2475 01:31:14,715 --> 01:31:15,075 yeah 2476 01:31:15,075 --> 01:31:15,855 my eyes lit up 2477 01:31:15,855 --> 01:31:16,955 I would love to see 2478 01:31:16,955 --> 01:31:18,635 Matt, Nick, Max 2479 01:31:18,635 --> 01:31:19,495 from Lexi as well 2480 01:31:19,495 --> 01:31:20,115 all you guys 2481 01:31:20,115 --> 01:31:21,755 I would love to see more videos 2482 01:31:21,755 --> 01:31:22,275 yeah yeah 2483 01:31:22,275 --> 01:31:23,235 just showing us 2484 01:31:23,235 --> 01:31:23,915 how you did it 2485 01:31:23,915 --> 01:31:24,075 yeah 2486 01:31:24,075 --> 01:31:24,255 like 2487 01:31:24,255 --> 01:31:25,955 explain like I'm five 2488 01:31:25,955 --> 01:31:28,476 casual demos, not super polished. 2489 01:31:28,476 --> 01:31:28,935 Not polished. 2490 01:31:29,155 --> 01:31:29,655 Like, show me. 2491 01:31:29,795 --> 01:31:30,455 Also, the prompts. 2492 01:31:30,755 --> 01:31:31,995 Well, here's one thing I've observed. 2493 01:31:32,455 --> 01:31:34,535 No one seems to share their prompts. 2494 01:31:34,755 --> 01:31:36,255 And that includes you and Matt. 2495 01:31:36,415 --> 01:31:37,575 We still need to give up for prompts. 2496 01:31:37,575 --> 01:31:38,135 And I don't know. 2497 01:31:38,815 --> 01:31:40,435 So why do you think that is? 2498 01:31:40,515 --> 01:31:43,135 Is it like, that's your IP? 2499 01:31:43,415 --> 01:31:45,355 And you want to keep it close to the chest? 2500 01:31:45,795 --> 01:31:47,835 Why isn't it just, to me, 2501 01:31:47,895 --> 01:31:50,795 the default should be part of the demo. 2502 01:31:50,995 --> 01:31:52,655 Part of like, hey, here's my work, 2503 01:31:52,755 --> 01:31:54,335 is actually showing prompts. 2504 01:31:54,335 --> 01:32:02,515 Because for others who haven't yet been able to achieve the success that you guys have, they're like, oh, that's cool, but how do I do it? 2505 01:32:02,755 --> 01:32:05,875 Yeah, I mean, I certainly don't consider it IP. 2506 01:32:06,055 --> 01:32:07,355 I'm just trying to get stuff out there. 2507 01:32:07,635 --> 01:32:12,035 Matt, I think, has explicitly said to me everything he does is open source and free for everybody. 2508 01:32:12,595 --> 01:32:18,795 I think we don't have a coding tool that makes it the default that your prompts get published. 2509 01:32:18,795 --> 01:32:18,976 This is an opportunity. 2510 01:32:18,976 --> 01:32:36,575 I think if somebody were to say, I don't know if it's a plug into VS Code or something into Cursor or Cloud Code or something, or Goose, but if there were a way to say, hey, default, publish all of my prompts and all of my sessions to this location, I think a lot of people would use that. 2511 01:32:36,575 --> 01:32:39,955 And maybe there's like different degrees of control you need. 2512 01:32:40,095 --> 01:32:45,215 Like, hey, like, let me review and approve them, you know, or only do it after the session, 2513 01:32:45,215 --> 01:32:50,335 if I approve the whole session so that people don't feel too concerned that there's something going public. 2514 01:32:50,335 --> 01:32:54,976 Or even one, just I press a button and it packages it up and shares it. 2515 01:32:55,095 --> 01:32:55,255 Totally. 2516 01:32:55,415 --> 01:32:58,235 Or even, and I include, that can include a video or whatever. 2517 01:32:58,495 --> 01:33:01,135 So part of the, like, I want to show off my work. 2518 01:33:01,215 --> 01:33:02,915 I hit a button, show off my work. 2519 01:33:02,915 --> 01:33:07,976 And it not only creates a video, but also like, here's a link to all the prompts. 2520 01:33:08,255 --> 01:33:10,235 Here's the conversation that was had with the AI. 2521 01:33:10,615 --> 01:33:14,135 And I did a few live streams where I just showed everything I did. 2522 01:33:14,395 --> 01:33:17,375 And Matt and I have done those Vibecast things where we're just showing everything. 2523 01:33:17,555 --> 01:33:21,495 But like, you can't take it from that video format and like copy and paste the prompt. 2524 01:33:21,855 --> 01:33:24,455 So you actually need it like in its native text format. 2525 01:33:24,955 --> 01:33:25,995 Request for a product. 2526 01:33:26,155 --> 01:33:28,575 Because I know there was a big push in the early days. 2527 01:33:28,655 --> 01:33:29,595 Jack put out the big bounty. 2528 01:33:29,695 --> 01:33:31,875 I don't know if anyone's ever taken this to do GitHub on Nostra. 2529 01:33:31,875 --> 01:33:34,215 what about if whoever is doing that 2530 01:33:34,215 --> 01:33:35,335 instead of thinking about GitHub 2531 01:33:35,335 --> 01:33:38,055 we just start from like okay the future is 2532 01:33:38,055 --> 01:33:39,675 Vibes and 2533 01:33:39,675 --> 01:33:42,335 what does version control for Vibes look like 2534 01:33:42,335 --> 01:33:43,335 we need version control 2535 01:33:43,335 --> 01:33:47,455 this is a request for a startup 2536 01:33:47,455 --> 01:33:49,976 I want to see someone build GitHub for prompts 2537 01:33:49,976 --> 01:33:51,215 ideally on Oster but 2538 01:33:51,215 --> 01:33:53,055 wherever you think it makes sense 2539 01:33:53,055 --> 01:33:55,675 and because then you could do some really cool stuff where you could say like okay 2540 01:33:55,675 --> 01:33:57,795 here are all the different forks 2541 01:33:57,795 --> 01:33:58,775 I mean there's a bunch of stuff 2542 01:33:58,775 --> 01:34:00,855 one thing Vinny makes a point is there's a lot of noise 2543 01:34:00,855 --> 01:34:04,595 So like probably you have an AI kind of like, you know, like a fuzz testing or whatever. 2544 01:34:04,675 --> 01:34:07,355 It's just like takes the important parts, extracts it. 2545 01:34:07,355 --> 01:34:08,075 Extract the, yeah. 2546 01:34:08,135 --> 01:34:09,835 Like what was the final thing that worked here? 2547 01:34:09,915 --> 01:34:11,095 And like, let's package that up. 2548 01:34:11,175 --> 01:34:11,415 Exactly. 2549 01:34:11,595 --> 01:34:14,735 And then ideally you kind of have it in a way where you can just like kind of like hover 2550 01:34:14,735 --> 01:34:15,795 over it and see. 2551 01:34:15,915 --> 01:34:19,195 And then ideally, then what you could do is you could start then pumping that through 2552 01:34:19,195 --> 01:34:20,215 different models, right? 2553 01:34:20,335 --> 01:34:23,295 And this is something I told the Maple AI guys, which we should talk about more is like 2554 01:34:23,295 --> 01:34:27,715 with this idea of like, oh, I've got one, my personal AI, which then has like 15 different 2555 01:34:27,715 --> 01:34:28,976 models it farms out to. 2556 01:34:29,375 --> 01:34:31,055 It'd be cool if I could say this prompt 2557 01:34:31,055 --> 01:34:33,055 with claw generates this. This prompt 2558 01:34:33,055 --> 01:34:34,935 with Google generates this. And just 2559 01:34:34,935 --> 01:34:37,135 have all these different trees. I think both 2560 01:34:37,135 --> 01:34:38,995 are interesting. I also would like to see 2561 01:34:38,995 --> 01:34:40,976 the whole thing. Because even if it's 2562 01:34:40,976 --> 01:34:43,115 noise, it's like, even if you went 2563 01:34:43,115 --> 01:34:45,155 down a wrong path, wrong path, wrong 2564 01:34:45,155 --> 01:34:47,055 path, and then finally right path, I 2565 01:34:47,055 --> 01:34:49,075 learn from that. Because if I'm 2566 01:34:49,075 --> 01:34:51,055 starting at zero, or if I'm 2567 01:34:51,055 --> 01:34:52,875 at this level of skill and you're 2568 01:34:52,875 --> 01:34:54,555 at this level, 2569 01:34:55,155 --> 01:34:57,055 then I'd best 2570 01:34:57,055 --> 01:34:58,955 learn how to get that level if I see the work 2571 01:34:58,976 --> 01:34:59,755 you did to get there. 2572 01:35:00,055 --> 01:35:01,995 I mean, I can understand that 2573 01:35:01,995 --> 01:35:03,075 in the traditional sense, 2574 01:35:03,115 --> 01:35:04,235 I would 100% agree. 2575 01:35:04,395 --> 01:35:05,995 I think in this new world 2576 01:35:05,995 --> 01:35:06,735 we're moving to, 2577 01:35:07,375 --> 01:35:08,915 you should almost care less 2578 01:35:08,915 --> 01:35:09,935 about the dead ends. 2579 01:35:09,935 --> 01:35:12,135 And like, if I did the work 2580 01:35:12,135 --> 01:35:13,635 to help the machine figure out 2581 01:35:13,635 --> 01:35:14,195 how to do this, 2582 01:35:14,233 --> 01:35:15,413 that I wanted to be done 2583 01:35:15,413 --> 01:35:16,673 and you want the same thing to be done. 2584 01:35:17,453 --> 01:35:19,173 The new version is you don't need 2585 01:35:19,173 --> 01:35:21,053 to learn all the details and dead ends. 2586 01:35:21,173 --> 01:35:22,153 You just need to tell the machine, 2587 01:35:23,233 --> 01:35:24,733 you know, do that thing that DK did 2588 01:35:24,733 --> 01:35:25,313 and now move on. 2589 01:35:25,353 --> 01:35:25,953 And I'm going to do the thing 2590 01:35:25,953 --> 01:35:27,173 that only Steve is doing. 2591 01:35:28,613 --> 01:35:28,933 Yeah. 2592 01:35:29,173 --> 01:35:30,133 So I think actually, 2593 01:35:30,233 --> 01:35:31,993 if you look at a lot of these like proprietary, 2594 01:35:32,153 --> 01:35:33,233 like, you know, the cursors of the world, 2595 01:35:33,313 --> 01:35:34,013 the windsrifts of the world, 2596 01:35:34,433 --> 01:35:35,753 a lot of like the story, 2597 01:35:35,753 --> 01:35:37,333 and I don't know how much, 2598 01:35:37,713 --> 01:35:39,413 and actually in the Anthropic as well, 2599 01:35:39,753 --> 01:35:40,653 a lot of the story is 2600 01:35:40,653 --> 01:35:43,713 because people are using these interfaces for coding, 2601 01:35:43,713 --> 01:35:46,053 They have more data and a good feedback loop. 2602 01:35:46,053 --> 01:35:46,653 And they can train better models. 2603 01:35:46,653 --> 01:35:47,893 They can compound better models. 2604 01:35:48,093 --> 01:35:50,813 So if you want to solve like open source AI 2605 01:35:50,813 --> 01:35:51,933 or open source coding, 2606 01:35:52,213 --> 01:35:54,313 maybe what you really want to do is get a plugin 2607 01:35:54,313 --> 01:35:58,993 for like a goose that becomes like a repo on Noster 2608 01:35:58,993 --> 01:36:01,653 where you can default publish 2609 01:36:01,653 --> 01:36:03,613 or with a gated approval, 2610 01:36:03,853 --> 01:36:05,513 publish everything you want to Noster. 2611 01:36:05,693 --> 01:36:08,013 Now you've got Noster is the corpus 2612 01:36:08,013 --> 01:36:10,993 of all of the prompt sessions of everything that got done 2613 01:36:10,993 --> 01:36:13,673 and like the output software from it. 2614 01:36:13,713 --> 01:36:14,353 I love that. 2615 01:36:14,453 --> 01:36:15,693 And so for the people out there 2616 01:36:15,693 --> 01:36:16,773 that are thinking about this stuff, 2617 01:36:16,973 --> 01:36:19,673 Matt, Naked, MDK, Max, Alexi, 2618 01:36:19,833 --> 01:36:22,373 the Albie guys, Million, Pablo, 2619 01:36:22,913 --> 01:36:24,673 that's a really good idea. 2620 01:36:24,673 --> 01:36:25,053 Yeah. 2621 01:36:25,533 --> 01:36:27,133 And I think it patterns like, 2622 01:36:27,473 --> 01:36:28,593 what was that sort of like, 2623 01:36:28,773 --> 01:36:30,613 what would GitHub look like on Nostra? 2624 01:36:30,693 --> 01:36:32,373 But oftentimes when we do those things, 2625 01:36:32,473 --> 01:36:33,913 like what does Twitter look like on Nostra? 2626 01:36:34,233 --> 01:36:37,913 Too much analogy of how the current thing works, 2627 01:36:38,013 --> 01:36:39,013 but the opportunities come 2628 01:36:39,013 --> 01:36:41,973 not from doing the analogies well and polished, 2629 01:36:42,093 --> 01:36:43,153 but it's from finding the things 2630 01:36:43,153 --> 01:36:44,213 that couldn't be done before. 2631 01:36:44,353 --> 01:36:45,093 Isn't this what Pablo 2632 01:36:45,093 --> 01:36:45,753 is kind of trying to do? 2633 01:36:45,773 --> 01:36:46,953 We should get on another call 2634 01:36:46,953 --> 01:36:47,693 with Pablo and have him 2635 01:36:47,693 --> 01:36:48,633 demo us his thing. 2636 01:36:49,353 --> 01:36:51,293 Well, I thought his was 2637 01:36:51,293 --> 01:36:53,833 more like the council of experts, 2638 01:36:54,173 --> 01:36:55,333 kind of advisors idea. 2639 01:36:55,593 --> 01:36:56,673 I mean, he's floated 2640 01:36:56,673 --> 01:36:57,753 in and out of a bunch of these, 2641 01:36:57,813 --> 01:36:58,673 so we should... 2642 01:36:58,673 --> 01:37:00,113 I mean, always creative 2643 01:37:00,113 --> 01:37:01,253 and happy to, yeah, 2644 01:37:01,753 --> 01:37:02,693 spend more time with Pablo. 2645 01:37:02,933 --> 01:37:03,293 Future episode. 2646 01:37:03,653 --> 01:37:03,813 Yeah. 2647 01:37:04,013 --> 01:37:04,153 Yeah. 2648 01:37:04,833 --> 01:37:05,973 The future is rich. 2649 01:37:07,313 --> 01:37:07,713 Cool. 2650 01:37:07,933 --> 01:37:08,093 Okay. 2651 01:37:08,273 --> 01:37:08,953 Great show, guys. 2652 01:37:09,033 --> 01:37:09,313 Yeah, great. 2653 01:37:09,313 --> 01:37:09,513 Yeah. 2654 01:37:09,753 --> 01:37:09,933 Okay. 2655 01:37:10,273 --> 01:37:10,693 Wrap it. 2656 01:37:10,913 --> 01:37:11,133 Yeah. 2657 01:37:11,413 --> 01:37:11,733 Thank you. 2658 01:37:11,853 --> 01:37:12,153 Bye-bye.