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All right. Welcome to another PBJ, the Presidio Bitcoin Jam.

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How's it going, David?

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Good. How are you doing, Steve?

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Good.

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We've got, we're a man down, but maybe not for long.

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Momentarily.

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We had quite a mess today, right?

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Because we normally do the show at noon and we schedule it for 1030 and it's about 11 right now.

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And we've got two of the three people.

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We split the difference.

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But yeah, I'm the instigator.

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I'm in New York City right now.

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why are you causing trouble went to an event yesterday which we can talk a little bit about

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but I'm off to Europe in a little bit and I realized yesterday that I would not be able to

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do the regular time unless I did it from the airport and I doubt I'll find a quiet spot at

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Newark airport right for recording so I popped in at the block office in New York

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here we are but max didn't get the memo so he'll be a little late he's a little late that's all right

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i i wish we could have uh i wish we could have had the wide shot today because the um the neon

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sign that i think was a little a little disrupted or a little broken uh last week is now fixed

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and it looks beautiful i guess it will when he joins the studio maybe we'll go to a wider shot

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Maybe you'll go to a lighter one.

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But in place, I wore my Bitcoin orange shirt.

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We've got Biddy, of course.

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I chose an orange drink and I got a new iPhone.

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Yeah, so I'm trying to represent a little bit.

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Wow.

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Well, I'm not, but I do have an orange tie in my suitcase.

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So you wore a suit last night, right?

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I wore a suit last night.

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Because how many days a year do you wear a suit?

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It had been a while since I grabbed my suit.

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So I would say on average once a year.

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So this is first of 2020.

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I like wearing my suit though.

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Yeah.

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I like finding excuses to wear my suit.

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Yeah.

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But let's see.

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Yeah.

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Maybe we'll start with like, why am I in New York?

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So I was at a chain code event yesterday, which was Chatham House rule.

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So rule.

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Yeah.

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So I'm free to talk about what we talked about, what we did.

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I won't mention who was there, or at least what people said.

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But yeah, this was an event that Chaincode organized,

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kind of like an executive seminar briefing.

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I think it was framed as dialogues.

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We had done this before, or at least I had participated in a similar thing before at Chaincode,

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where it's trying to bring together busy executives at Bitcoin companies

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together with open source developers.

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Because those two worlds often don't naturally come together.

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And so if the only touchpoint is Twitter or social media for communicating, that's not a recipe for success.

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So I really like that ChainCompus effort in to initiate that.

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they typically do it

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coinciding with the coin center

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gala dinner because a lot of executives

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are in town for that so it makes it you know more realistic

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that they'll come to this event so there are people

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from all over the world Beijing people

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flew in from Beijing and all over the US and Europe

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some of which specifically for this event and others

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just happened to be here. It was a bunch of folks from

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exchanges, mining companies

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merchant software, all kinds of different companies

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and a lot of open source developers.

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Is there a pretty structured agenda for topics that you want to get through

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and come to consensus on?

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There was, Jonas was the organizer of this, and he had reached out to everyone ahead of time saying, hey, what are the topics you want to cover? So there's soliciting what people wanted to cover. And then it was organized into seven quick 15-minute sessions. And you could pick four of the, or maybe there's six. You could pick four of the six.

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so we spent an hour doing that you just rotate you just join a session where topics were like

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covenants was one topic the great consensus cleanup uh uh is what's another topic off return

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with another topic what do core devs do like what's what do they do during the day or like

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what's their typical day that was a topic things like that um so you could pick four of the six and

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you you went to you know each one for 15 minutes and then there's a leader in that group and no

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more than eight people in a given session. So there's that. There was a session where

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it was kind of fun. Just the whole group of like 40, 50 people gathered around. We wrote down on,

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each of us wrote down a sheet of paper, either an ask or an offer. So you could offer to teach

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someone something about some aspect of Bitcoin, or you could ask that you wanted to learn something.

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and then we all went around selling our it was like a marketplace and it was an offer

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i did an offer mining decentralization is what i chose to teach um so that was a cool exercise

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um then there was then there was uh three or four topics that were 45 minutes long so a deeper dive

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and I led one of those.

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That was my role.

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The one I led was like,

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is lightning overhyped

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and like other Bitcoin payments in general?

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Where are we at?

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Where's the future?

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Other scaling solutions and layer twos.

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So I was in a good position to lead that.

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We had about eight or 10 people

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in my little breakout group.

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Super great discussion.

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there were folks from BitGo

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and Coinbase and NewBank

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MoonWallet

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etc. that were

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part of my little

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breakout discussion

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and then at the end we all got together

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and had one more exercise

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but I think

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so it was really good

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by breaking into smaller groups of like

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eight or so people

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you get a lot more engagement

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everyone felt comfortable

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It's just more intimate than a 50-person session.

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So I think that was a success.

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I think people learned a lot.

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There's a lot of listening, too.

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That's one reason I like it.

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I mean, while I have things I feel like I can teach, I like to hear what's on the minds of busy executives in the space who don't spend all day thinking about open source Bitcoin and the protocol and stuff like that.

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So listening was really good.

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The main thing is that there were a lot of conversations there that I didn't get to hear because we were broken in a smaller group.

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So in theory, if there's some way to summarize all that and let it be known, that would have been good. Then, of course, people listening are probably also maybe wishing they could hear the results too or what was discussed. But I think it was a good set of topics that were discussed and really good questions by the executives.

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I should say that

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one of the topics that we'll get into next

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that continues to be on fire

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with lots of drama

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on social media

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is around Op return and Bitcoin Core V30

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and not

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so I was very curious going into this

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I had tweeted it maybe a month

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or two ago

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we were at some monthly meetup

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at Presidio Bitcoin

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and no one really

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cared about this topic or thought it was that big a deal or weren't paying attention or whatever

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um and i tweeted that out and then people on social media got mad at me um i mean you just

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tweeted that people weren't at the meetup people weren't really concerned with this topic that

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twitter seemed to think was super important yeah right i'm just and i'm not saying the topic's not

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important we'll get into i actually do think it's important but i don't i don't think it's as

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important if all you did is read social media yeah you you are you feel like the point is dying

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in like before the end of the year yeah and um i just think if you get outside that bubble and

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talk to people who are in the bitcoin space or bitcoin investors or users um that i mean they're

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they're either ignorant of the imminent demise of bitcoin or they don't believe the hype um or what

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what have you. So I was curious going into this event, like what do, you know, business people,

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what's on the top of their mind? And, you know, I certainly didn't speak with everyone there

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and ask this specific question. So this isn't necessarily everyone's take, but the people I

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did speak with, they either were oblivious to it or consider this like complete noise to them.

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They don't think it's a big issue.

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They're not looking to change Bitcoin software.

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They don't think Bitcoin's going to die soon.

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Kind of a nothing burger within that event.

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Is the argument for Bitcoin going to die,

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is that it's going to be overloaded with spam

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or is it too divisive that nobody can get consensus on it?

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What's the Bitcoin going to die position?

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um as far as i can tell uh there's a few threads there but the the one that seems to have the most

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tenacity and volume right now is around c sam so like putting illegal content i see and you know

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disgusting content illegal content in in the blockchain and an assertion that bitcoin core

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v30 is enabling this

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or enabling it in a

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way that

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hasn't been possible in the past.

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So that would be that the binary

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data gets stored in

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the blockchain in transactions or something?

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Yeah, well, right.

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And specifically

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in this case,

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an opportune

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transaction.

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I think this

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specific topic is uh is a is a good one to to think about um it's a little concerning though

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raising so much

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like it's it's good to discuss it and think it think it through but like if we raise so much

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awareness to it like does it draw people who aren't into bitcoin's attention to it

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and potentially become like a legal or political battle.

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So there's a little bit of a tension there.

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But I guess let's talk about that.

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So first of all, it's always been possible to store data

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in the Bitcoin blockchain.

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So it was possible in the past.

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Before Opraturen even existed in Bitcoin,

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it was added in 2014.

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So over a decade ago, it was possible after it was added.

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Obviously, anyone paying attention to the last few years has seen that JPEGs have been added to the blockchain.

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I am not aware of any CSAM in the Bitcoin blockchain, so I don't believe that has been added yet.

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And I hope it never is.

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But it would be possible to add it to the blockchain.

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and it'll be possible after

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with or without Bitcoin Core v30,

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with or without not.

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How much binary data can you store?

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This is like some,

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I guess it must be limited by the block size.

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So it's some sub threshold of the block size,

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but is it like 50% of the block size or 20%?

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I mean, you can basically fill up

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the entire space with it

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because the consensus rules allow for it.

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So this whole op return debate,

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there's currently an 80 byte limit

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that's a policy though, not consensus.

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So if you are able to get a transaction

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to a miner directly,

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or relay it through a more permissive route of nodes,

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or you are a miner yourself,

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you can mine an op return with more data you can also mine using the inscriptions method that's

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been developed where you're using witness data which is both cheaper and you can store even more

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data because with witness data you can store four times more data uh so up to four four megabytes

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and then there's a variety of other ways to

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even if those are somehow stamped out

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those methods of storing data

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you can just store data in public and private keys

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there's a really good BitMEX research post on that

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a few weeks ago

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maybe a month ago or so

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on unstoppable JPEGs on the Bitcoin blockchain

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so it's always been possible

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still be possible

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it'll be possible with or without these different

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Bitcoin implementations

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I think the concern with changing the opportune limit, it makes it easier for someone to do.

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Although it's been noted by people that you can both store larger images and it's four times cheaper to store images using the inscriptions method versus opportune.

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so anyone unless you're intentionally being you know it's not even malicious it's more like if

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you want to make a point like a political point right opera turn is bad or like big opera turns

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are bad that's really the only rationale i can think of of why anyone would use opera turn to

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store an image versus inscriptions um because if you want to actually so i mean if you just

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genuinely want to store images and do it cheaply, then you'd use

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inscriptions. If you want to attack the network

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and bloat as much data as possible,

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then you would use inscriptions because you can store more data.

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So I think the only reason, and I'm sure we'll see some op return

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images once, or either now, just going

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through a miner or once Bitcoin Core V30. I guess if you want to

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attack it that way. You'd wait until V30

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is released so that you could

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blame it on that version

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of the software. But I think we'll see that

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just people trying to

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create a narrative.

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But I think the more

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interesting discussion about

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is Bitcoin

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Core V30 with the unlimited

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op return size,

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does it somehow

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increase risk

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with the CSAM stuff?

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one thread I think worth

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discussing is that if there are

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00:15:55,020 --> 00:16:00,820
tools that let you

247
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view

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images on the blockchain

249
00:16:04,620 --> 00:16:07,020
like I believe mempool.space

250
00:16:07,020 --> 00:16:08,900
and I think

251
00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:10,060
maybe

252
00:16:10,060 --> 00:16:14,800
I'm forgetting who it is

253
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,600
but I think there's a few tools out there that let you

254
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:17,820
view inscription

255
00:16:17,820 --> 00:16:25,780
jpegs i don't know if there's tools that let you view opportune based images but you can imagine

256
00:16:25,780 --> 00:16:30,420
those being created if they're not already created right and so anyone has those types of viewers

257
00:16:30,420 --> 00:16:39,380
like what's the legal culpability for them if they if c sam or some other illegal content is shown

258
00:16:39,380 --> 00:16:40,900
I'm not a lawyer

259
00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:41,660
I don't know

260
00:16:41,660 --> 00:16:44,600
but

261
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,440
even independent of the legality

262
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,180
if it's easy for anyone

263
00:16:51,180 --> 00:16:52,100
to use such a tool

264
00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:53,000
we got Max now

265
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,460
you guys started without me

266
00:16:55,460 --> 00:16:56,020
I know

267
00:16:56,020 --> 00:16:59,720
you showed up 46 minutes late

268
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,900
46 minutes late

269
00:17:01,900 --> 00:17:03,380
Steve let me know last minute this morning

270
00:17:03,380 --> 00:17:05,220
he let me know yesterday I'll be here

271
00:17:05,220 --> 00:17:06,060
anyways

272
00:17:06,060 --> 00:17:08,280
thanks for making it

273
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,200
Bro, my morning's piece is the number one priority.

274
00:17:12,540 --> 00:17:13,560
Ain't changing that for nobody.

275
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:14,000
All right.

276
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:14,700
That's fair.

277
00:17:15,220 --> 00:17:16,620
Do you need headphones to hear Steve?

278
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:17,400
That would be good.

279
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:17,620
Okay.

280
00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:19,160
We'll get some headphones.

281
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,200
But Steve was talking about CSAM.

282
00:17:23,020 --> 00:17:24,800
I hope you guys already talked about knots,

283
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:40,553
because I know they never talking about that We in the thick of it We in the middle So I just continue while Max gets set up So I think if there broadly accessible tools

284
00:17:40,553 --> 00:17:42,973
that let you see images

285
00:17:42,973 --> 00:17:45,533
and then there's really disgusting content

286
00:17:45,533 --> 00:17:46,913
or illegal content shown,

287
00:17:47,013 --> 00:17:52,093
I think that's horrible for branding and PR of Bitcoin.

288
00:17:52,633 --> 00:17:55,213
If no one working on Bitcoin wants that to happen,

289
00:17:55,213 --> 00:18:03,513
uh bitcoin node software doesn't enable viewing or accessing images like that

290
00:18:03,513 --> 00:18:10,773
if there's external tools i at least think it's a bad it's bad you know bad bad for the image of

291
00:18:10,773 --> 00:18:19,553
bitcoin um so that's something i think that people should follow up on is is with people who

292
00:18:19,553 --> 00:18:24,353
have created these image viewers get their thoughts on it and see how they think they

293
00:18:24,353 --> 00:18:26,593
should, you know, if anything should change.

294
00:18:27,533 --> 00:18:30,253
Would it be easy to, I don't know all of what

295
00:18:30,253 --> 00:18:33,193
Nots does, but would it be easy to like

296
00:18:33,193 --> 00:18:36,073
just have a way where that

297
00:18:36,073 --> 00:18:38,993
data can exist for people who want to

298
00:18:38,993 --> 00:18:42,253
have access to it, but it's easy to like raise flags and be like, hey, if you want

299
00:18:42,253 --> 00:18:45,313
to run a version that doesn't have that, you can just kind of run that

300
00:18:45,313 --> 00:18:48,253
and you can run either one, but they're kind of compatible with each other

301
00:18:48,253 --> 00:18:51,253
or is there a problem that like in the

302
00:18:51,253 --> 00:18:54,013
future if you tried to spend from stuff that involved those

303
00:18:54,013 --> 00:18:55,653
transactions, you'd have to somehow

304
00:18:55,653 --> 00:18:57,413
be exposed to that binary data?

305
00:18:59,073 --> 00:19:00,053
I don't know if I fully

306
00:19:00,053 --> 00:19:01,973
understand the question, but you can't spend

307
00:19:01,973 --> 00:19:03,733
an op return for one thing.

308
00:19:03,733 --> 00:19:04,413
Right, yeah.

309
00:19:06,573 --> 00:19:07,993
And I believe

310
00:19:07,993 --> 00:19:08,833
Bitcoin Core

311
00:19:08,833 --> 00:19:11,693
obfuscates that

312
00:19:11,693 --> 00:19:13,433
data while it's stored in

313
00:19:13,433 --> 00:19:15,513
your hard drive.

314
00:19:16,353 --> 00:19:16,373
So,

315
00:19:17,033 --> 00:19:19,873
like virus

316
00:19:19,873 --> 00:19:21,693
scanners and stuff, if they're scanning it,

317
00:19:22,373 --> 00:19:23,733
don't detect it.

318
00:19:24,013 --> 00:19:37,733
But I think one of the arguments being made is that somehow it's like endorsed in Bitcoin core D30 because of the removal of the limit.

319
00:19:37,733 --> 00:19:40,713
I don't think that argument has much merit.

320
00:19:41,213 --> 00:19:45,213
Again, the consensus rules allow for data to be stored in Bitcoin.

321
00:19:45,753 --> 00:19:46,913
It's permissionless.

322
00:19:47,293 --> 00:19:51,473
So people can put illegal content, disgusting content in the blockchain.

323
00:19:52,073 --> 00:19:53,013
Let's hope they don't.

324
00:19:53,093 --> 00:19:53,873
But they can.

325
00:19:54,013 --> 00:19:56,353
And that's the consensus rules everyone's agreed to.

326
00:19:57,673 --> 00:20:04,533
So for me, I think the main thing is I don't see Bitcoin Core V30 as changing anything.

327
00:20:06,313 --> 00:20:11,973
But it did make me think about these image viewer tools.

328
00:20:12,593 --> 00:20:19,633
And that could lead to, like I've said a few times now, bad branding for Bitcoin.

329
00:20:19,933 --> 00:20:20,033
Right.

330
00:20:21,293 --> 00:20:22,313
Kind of demonstrates.

331
00:20:22,313 --> 00:20:26,553
I do think it's dangerous if like that becomes a huge topic.

332
00:20:27,953 --> 00:20:28,713
And then,

333
00:20:28,833 --> 00:20:29,453
you know,

334
00:20:29,513 --> 00:20:31,853
how policymakers react to that.

335
00:20:31,933 --> 00:20:32,453
I have no idea,

336
00:20:32,953 --> 00:20:34,293
but that's one thread.

337
00:20:34,433 --> 00:20:36,213
The one thing I definitely wanted to talk about,

338
00:20:36,273 --> 00:20:39,413
and we talked about this in an episode back in maybe April or May.

339
00:20:40,313 --> 00:20:43,193
I probably made these points then,

340
00:20:43,213 --> 00:20:45,573
but I'm going to make them again now because,

341
00:20:45,573 --> 00:20:48,612
because at the time I was engaged on social media,

342
00:20:48,833 --> 00:20:50,813
responding to some of the concerns.

343
00:20:50,813 --> 00:20:55,793
and I thought

344
00:20:55,793 --> 00:20:58,233
and I got to a point where I feel like I said everything

345
00:20:58,233 --> 00:20:59,612
I had to say

346
00:20:59,612 --> 00:21:02,313
and it felt like the conversation

347
00:21:02,313 --> 00:21:03,913
yeah I thought we were done with this forever

348
00:21:03,913 --> 00:21:05,993
I kind of felt like the conversation

349
00:21:05,993 --> 00:21:08,053
was nonsensical at that point

350
00:21:08,053 --> 00:21:09,293
I still did

351
00:21:09,293 --> 00:21:12,293
and I was dismayed

352
00:21:12,293 --> 00:21:14,193
by some people I've worked with for years

353
00:21:14,193 --> 00:21:15,453
you know

354
00:21:15,453 --> 00:21:17,733
seeing things differently and I just

355
00:21:17,733 --> 00:21:19,813
I really don't understand

356
00:21:19,813 --> 00:21:21,713
their perspectives.

357
00:21:23,053 --> 00:21:24,253
But I just thought it would

358
00:21:24,253 --> 00:21:26,033
go away, like you just said, Max.

359
00:21:26,112 --> 00:21:28,173
So I stopped engaging on social media

360
00:21:28,173 --> 00:21:28,853
on the topic.

361
00:21:29,973 --> 00:21:31,612
But we're talking about it again today

362
00:21:31,612 --> 00:21:32,793
because it's

363
00:21:32,793 --> 00:21:36,293
a bigger topic than ever

364
00:21:36,293 --> 00:21:37,853
now. It hasn't gone away.

365
00:21:38,112 --> 00:21:39,853
The volume's been 10x'd.

366
00:21:41,112 --> 00:21:42,053
So I wanted to

367
00:21:42,053 --> 00:21:43,473
at least talk about

368
00:21:43,473 --> 00:21:45,693
because some

369
00:21:45,693 --> 00:21:47,873
people that are sort of neutral or at least

370
00:21:47,873 --> 00:21:54,053
don't like the drama that are now raising the question, why not just, why doesn't Core just not

371
00:21:54,053 --> 00:22:01,133
do anything? Like just then this top drama will go away. And I wanted to talk about that because

372
00:22:01,133 --> 00:22:06,073
I don't think that's the right decision. I think it's important that Bitcoin Core developers

373
00:22:06,073 --> 00:22:11,413
listen to all the concerns. And I think there has been a lot of listening,

374
00:22:11,413 --> 00:22:20,813
but let's go through the reasons for making this change so number one is concern there's a long-term

375
00:22:20,813 --> 00:22:27,773
concern and a short-term concern um is everything okay people you guys are smiling at me that's all

376
00:22:27,773 --> 00:22:33,693
good okay um or i'm remote so i don't i don't know what's going on so uh anyway the long-term

377
00:22:33,693 --> 00:22:43,573
concern is mining centralization concerns. And let me walk through the logic here. And I really want

378
00:22:43,573 --> 00:22:49,553
you guys to like pressure test this because I've shared this privately with folks that I respect

379
00:22:49,553 --> 00:22:54,513
and they didn't seem to get it. So I don't know if I'm wrong or I'm not explaining it well. So

380
00:22:54,513 --> 00:23:00,433
let's give it another try. The mining centralization concern is that if there are

381
00:23:00,433 --> 00:23:04,753
Bitcoin transactions that are consensus valid,

382
00:23:05,293 --> 00:23:07,753
that are not being relayed on the network,

383
00:23:07,753 --> 00:23:12,733
but there's enough incentive and demand to get them mined,

384
00:23:13,373 --> 00:23:17,433
then those who want them mined will go straight to the miners.

385
00:23:17,953 --> 00:23:20,573
And we saw a product called Slipstream come from Marathon

386
00:23:20,573 --> 00:23:22,213
to satisfy this demand.

387
00:23:22,753 --> 00:23:23,852
And that was Holes Accelerator.

388
00:23:24,433 --> 00:23:25,653
And then Holes Accelerator.

389
00:23:25,653 --> 00:23:37,833
so those are single company services proprietary apis and if they become popular enough where a lot

390
00:23:37,833 --> 00:23:44,393
of high fee paying transactions get submitted to them that's very dangerous for bitcoin because

391
00:23:44,393 --> 00:23:52,273
imagine if you are a new miner you want to begin mining we want to make mining or we want to keep

392
00:23:52,273 --> 00:23:53,993
mining permissionless.

393
00:23:54,352 --> 00:23:56,073
We don't want to introduce barriers.

394
00:23:56,553 --> 00:23:58,413
But let's say the three

395
00:23:58,413 --> 00:24:00,273
of us start a new mining company, we enter

396
00:24:00,273 --> 00:24:02,013
mining, and then we learn

397
00:24:02,013 --> 00:24:04,612
that just by plugging into the peer-to-peer network,

398
00:24:04,852 --> 00:24:05,953
we're only seeing

399
00:24:05,953 --> 00:24:08,473
80% of the revenue

400
00:24:08,473 --> 00:24:10,333
potential in transactions

401
00:24:10,333 --> 00:24:11,953
because the other 20%

402
00:24:11,953 --> 00:24:14,773
is in this private database

403
00:24:14,773 --> 00:24:16,013
from a company

404
00:24:16,013 --> 00:24:18,013
because these

405
00:24:18,013 --> 00:24:20,293
consensus valid transactions are

406
00:24:20,293 --> 00:24:21,893
not being relayed on the network.

407
00:24:22,273 --> 00:24:24,013
then we learn. It makes it tough to compete.

408
00:24:24,673 --> 00:24:26,253
Yeah. Then all of a sudden

409
00:24:26,253 --> 00:24:28,413
we look at our business model

410
00:24:28,413 --> 00:24:30,173
and our spreadsheet and our calculations.

411
00:24:30,173 --> 00:24:32,213
We're like, we can't just get

412
00:24:32,213 --> 00:24:34,233
80% of their revenue. We need 100% of their revenue to

413
00:24:34,233 --> 00:24:36,053
compete. It's hard enough with 100%.

414
00:24:36,053 --> 00:24:37,753
Let alone with a 20% haircut.

415
00:24:38,352 --> 00:24:39,373
So then we learn, oh,

416
00:24:40,293 --> 00:24:42,253
we have to do a, we have to go

417
00:24:42,253 --> 00:24:43,773
strike a business relationship

418
00:24:43,773 --> 00:24:45,933
with this company,

419
00:24:46,053 --> 00:24:48,233
like Marathon. And it's like, oh, we got

420
00:24:48,233 --> 00:24:50,193
to get chummy chummy with the executives and

421
00:24:50,193 --> 00:24:52,253
meet them and travel, you know, like

422
00:24:52,273 --> 00:24:57,612
people have to travel different countries and steak dinners and they have a lot of pricing

423
00:24:57,612 --> 00:25:01,713
pressure clearly that's not a good future for bitcoin right so so i don't really see how

424
00:25:01,713 --> 00:25:08,413
i really don't get the refutation of that the only thing i think you could refute or debate about is

425
00:25:08,413 --> 00:25:19,213
like at what threshold does that risk like get bad enough um where miners would feel a need to do

426
00:25:19,213 --> 00:25:24,193
that but it's definitely a trend you don't want to encourage so how do you discourage that well

427
00:25:24,193 --> 00:25:30,673
you discourage it by not having relay policy in the dominant implementation bitcoin core that

428
00:25:30,673 --> 00:25:38,153
prevents consensus valid transactions that um such as the op return so that's one motivation

429
00:25:38,153 --> 00:25:47,153
for changing op return um and then the second reason was more of a short-term urgency because

430
00:25:47,153 --> 00:25:51,793
you could argue with the first one it's like well is it is it a problem yet why don't we just wait

431
00:25:51,793 --> 00:25:57,633
for those reasons to go away or you know maybe it's a fad they'll go away but the second one was

432
00:25:57,633 --> 00:26:06,913
more urgent and this is where um certain protocols built on top of bitcoin such as bit bit vm based

433
00:26:06,913 --> 00:26:12,133
systems they want to stick some data in the blockchain that like a zero knowledge proof

434
00:26:12,133 --> 00:26:20,573
And we talked about this before in the show, but that data for the zero knowledge proof exceeds 80 bytes.

435
00:26:21,592 --> 00:26:34,213
So those protocols are not able to store that data in an op return if they want to just naturally broadcast Bitcoin transactions and have them relayed and get mined.

436
00:26:34,753 --> 00:26:40,473
And those protocols don't want to have to sign business deals with miners or sign up for the slipstream service to get it mined.

437
00:26:40,473 --> 00:26:42,473
so since

438
00:26:42,473 --> 00:26:44,733
OperaTurn was not available to them

439
00:26:44,733 --> 00:26:46,933
they instead had to come up

440
00:26:46,933 --> 00:26:48,913
with a scheme where they're storing

441
00:26:48,913 --> 00:26:51,133
that data into

442
00:26:51,133 --> 00:26:54,173
regular transactions

443
00:26:54,173 --> 00:26:56,713
so they go into UTXOs

444
00:26:56,713 --> 00:26:58,873
unlike OperaTurn because with OperaTurn

445
00:26:58,873 --> 00:27:00,873
it's provably unspendable

446
00:27:00,873 --> 00:27:02,553
it's the definition of OperaTurn

447
00:27:02,553 --> 00:27:05,112
so the OperaTurn data doesn't have to

448
00:27:05,112 --> 00:27:07,092
be stored in the UTXO set

449
00:27:07,092 --> 00:27:08,153
permanently

450
00:27:08,153 --> 00:27:10,453
but this data they want

451
00:27:10,473 --> 00:27:13,493
to be permanent. They'll never spend those UTXOs.

452
00:27:14,493 --> 00:27:17,393
There'll be no reason to spend it, and they'll be no economic...

453
00:27:17,393 --> 00:27:21,133
They don't want to spend the money to spend them. So it'll be permanent bloat

454
00:27:21,133 --> 00:27:25,213
to the UTXO set. So that's bad for all Bitcoin users.

455
00:27:25,413 --> 00:27:28,373
Everyone running Bitcoin software,

456
00:27:29,112 --> 00:27:32,073
they're worse off if they have to store that data permanently.

457
00:27:32,873 --> 00:27:36,893
So if you can instead store this 140 bytes or whatever it is in an

458
00:27:36,893 --> 00:27:39,813
return, you don't have to store that data permanently.

459
00:27:40,633 --> 00:27:41,913
Bitcoin's a healthier network.

460
00:27:42,633 --> 00:27:49,033
So because of those protocols, the reason it was urgent is because they were planning

461
00:27:49,033 --> 00:27:51,413
to launch or go live imminently.

462
00:27:52,813 --> 00:27:59,092
So there was an urgent need to not do it the unhealthy way and do it in a relatively healthier

463
00:27:59,092 --> 00:27:59,413
way.

464
00:28:00,533 --> 00:28:06,253
So regardless of what your opinion is on if a zero-knowledge proof

465
00:28:06,893 --> 00:28:13,513
is should be spam or not like i definitely don't think that's spam like if 140 bytes gets this

466
00:28:13,513 --> 00:28:20,073
like incredible scaling off chain that's exactly what engineers should be trying to think of so i

467
00:28:20,073 --> 00:28:25,793
don't even think it's spam but even if you do think it's spam it's better to stick spam it's

468
00:28:25,793 --> 00:28:30,612
better to have a healthier way to store the spam than an unhealthier way to store the spam so those

469
00:28:30,612 --> 00:28:35,053
are the two motivations that that i'm aware of the third motivation is more philosophical

470
00:28:35,053 --> 00:28:42,053
but again on a previous episode we talked about the difference between consensus and policy

471
00:28:42,053 --> 00:28:50,153
and in an ideal world there is no policy from bitcoin software which prevents consensus valid

472
00:28:50,153 --> 00:28:57,233
transactions to be relayed right we want that we want those to converge so there is no policy

473
00:28:57,233 --> 00:29:03,413
preventing consensus valid transactions to be relayed so why have any policy at all to to to

474
00:29:03,413 --> 00:29:08,653
block this block relaying these transactions well there are several transactions that are

475
00:29:08,653 --> 00:29:16,313
valid that are security threats to bitcoin they can cause denial of service attacks one of them

476
00:29:16,313 --> 00:29:23,013
we talked about previously is that you can construct a valid block that can take like an hour

477
00:29:23,013 --> 00:29:32,213
to mine or sorry not to mine to validate to validate so usually you can validate a typical

478
00:29:32,213 --> 00:29:37,112
block you validate and can broadcast it around the world in less than one second right so something

479
00:29:37,112 --> 00:29:44,153
that takes an hour is extremely unhealthy for the network if i mine a block broadcast it i can begin

480
00:29:44,153 --> 00:29:49,393
mining immediately and you guys are miners and you're spending an hour trying to like decode it

481
00:29:49,393 --> 00:29:53,533
or you know validate it and then you can't start mining again until you've done that

482
00:29:53,533 --> 00:30:03,633
so those reasons are you know that i i don't hear much debate saying we shouldn't have policy for

483
00:30:03,633 --> 00:30:08,313
that now ideally we fix consensus rules and that gets into the great consensus cleanup which is

484
00:30:08,313 --> 00:30:12,733
also something we've talked about let's save that for another day but ideally those are fixed at the

485
00:30:12,733 --> 00:30:20,293
consensus layer the only policy that exists in bitcoin core that isn't related to to those you

486
00:30:20,293 --> 00:30:23,953
grave denial of service attacks is op return.

487
00:30:25,133 --> 00:30:29,253
So philosophically, you can argue that was the only policy

488
00:30:29,253 --> 00:30:30,693
that's kind of paternalistic,

489
00:30:31,253 --> 00:30:34,773
like where the Bitcoin core developers and project were saying,

490
00:30:34,773 --> 00:30:41,673
we think anything above 80 bytes is spam and bad.

491
00:30:43,373 --> 00:30:48,573
And that's a position one can take,

492
00:30:48,573 --> 00:30:54,033
but it's more paternalistic than the other policies.

493
00:30:54,633 --> 00:30:56,433
So that's a third reason to change it.

494
00:30:56,653 --> 00:30:58,933
But you can argue that there's no urgency around that.

495
00:30:59,112 --> 00:31:01,133
But those are the reasons for this change.

496
00:31:03,833 --> 00:31:07,793
I would suggest we take a look at the chat

497
00:31:07,793 --> 00:31:11,793
just because there's, you know, BTC for plebs was commenting

498
00:31:11,793 --> 00:31:16,033
and we do like to incorporate the live stream.

499
00:31:16,173 --> 00:31:17,873
Let me incorporate one of his questions.

500
00:31:17,873 --> 00:31:30,953
So let me outline this the way I see it, because I have been very much in the camp of this whole thing is like completely dumb and completely distraction, possibly even an attack from whoever to DDoS the attention of everyone.

501
00:31:31,293 --> 00:31:34,273
So, but perhaps I'm missing something, so I want to make sure.

502
00:31:34,373 --> 00:31:36,233
So let me explain it the way I see it.

503
00:31:36,333 --> 00:31:39,893
And then I think BTC plurpleps is an interesting point that I need to push on.

504
00:31:40,313 --> 00:31:46,993
So the philosophical question, I fundamentally disagree, you know, whether or not you want something to be in there.

505
00:31:46,993 --> 00:31:50,813
that's like, if you either support free markets or you don't, that's ridiculous in my mind.

506
00:31:51,092 --> 00:31:56,513
Just like, if you really feel that hard, like whatever, about something in your own world,

507
00:31:56,612 --> 00:32:02,793
like feel free to do it in your own chain, enjoy yourself. What I do think is important

508
00:32:02,793 --> 00:32:07,133
that has to be fought for Bitcoin is the ability for the common man to run a node. We've talked

509
00:32:07,133 --> 00:32:11,393
about this many, many, many times. That's like the only thing that I think is sort of sacrosanct

510
00:32:11,393 --> 00:32:16,693
is can someone with $100 that lives in a third world country afford to run a node? If yes,

511
00:32:16,693 --> 00:32:18,092
Bitcoin has served its purpose.

512
00:32:18,253 --> 00:32:19,253
If no, it has not.

513
00:32:19,333 --> 00:32:20,753
That's the way I see it, that black and white.

514
00:32:21,513 --> 00:32:25,473
Now, in terms of how Bitcoin gets used,

515
00:32:25,573 --> 00:32:27,352
like you've said this many times, I agree with this.

516
00:32:27,413 --> 00:32:28,973
I think Kevin Kelly said this really well.

517
00:32:29,193 --> 00:32:30,873
We don't know what a technology wants to be

518
00:32:30,873 --> 00:32:34,133
until it's had probably decades or centuries in the world.

519
00:32:34,233 --> 00:32:35,612
So who knows if Bitcoin's a clock,

520
00:32:35,753 --> 00:32:37,352
what is it going to be used for many things?

521
00:32:37,433 --> 00:32:38,873
Money is the obvious one,

522
00:32:38,913 --> 00:32:40,753
but there's a lot of cool things you get with Bitcoin.

523
00:32:41,433 --> 00:32:43,193
But you can only do that, in my opinion,

524
00:32:43,193 --> 00:32:46,453
and keep Bitcoin sacrosanct if the normal man can run a node,

525
00:32:46,453 --> 00:32:48,173
which they couldn't do in all the crypto ecosystems.

526
00:32:48,833 --> 00:32:51,153
Now, how they get that data on chain,

527
00:32:51,293 --> 00:32:53,193
that's like a creative engineering question.

528
00:32:53,352 --> 00:32:54,592
And like, how do you do that in a way

529
00:32:54,592 --> 00:32:57,053
that doesn't get rid of the sacrosanct ability

530
00:32:57,053 --> 00:32:57,733
to run a node?

531
00:32:58,673 --> 00:33:00,793
In terms of the operaturn versus other stuff,

532
00:33:00,833 --> 00:33:02,293
I mean, there's other ways you can get data

533
00:33:02,293 --> 00:33:02,733
in the blockchain.

534
00:33:02,852 --> 00:33:03,633
Like we had inscriptions

535
00:33:03,633 --> 00:33:05,293
and people absolutely hated inscriptions

536
00:33:05,293 --> 00:33:08,713
and the camp that I assume is pushing for all this now.

537
00:33:08,773 --> 00:33:09,733
And it's like, too bad, man.

538
00:33:09,773 --> 00:33:10,473
People are paying for it.

539
00:33:10,493 --> 00:33:11,033
It is what it is.

540
00:33:11,473 --> 00:33:13,193
Now, with the operaturn thing,

541
00:33:13,973 --> 00:33:15,913
what I don't fully understand is,

542
00:33:15,913 --> 00:33:18,233
and maybe you can clarify for this for me

543
00:33:18,233 --> 00:33:20,313
and this is all bringing the BTC for plebs question

544
00:33:20,313 --> 00:33:22,513
is the giant fight over whether or not

545
00:33:22,513 --> 00:33:23,993
we take off the limit for opperturn

546
00:33:23,993 --> 00:33:27,633
and if the answer to that question is yes

547
00:33:27,633 --> 00:33:29,913
then I have two follow-up questions.

548
00:33:30,033 --> 00:33:31,553
One is BTC for plebs question

549
00:33:31,553 --> 00:33:32,773
where she says the opperturn data

550
00:33:32,773 --> 00:33:33,753
still has to be downloaded

551
00:33:33,753 --> 00:33:35,273
as part of the initial block download

552
00:33:35,273 --> 00:33:36,193
before it can be deleted.

553
00:33:36,813 --> 00:33:37,813
If that's the case

554
00:33:37,813 --> 00:33:40,873
then is it still if you go to the edge

555
00:33:40,873 --> 00:33:42,393
a potential attack to say

556
00:33:42,393 --> 00:33:43,413
if we take off the limit

557
00:33:43,413 --> 00:33:46,333
we could literally just spam it so hard

558
00:33:46,333 --> 00:33:48,573
that it's impossible for the common man to run a node.

559
00:33:48,953 --> 00:33:50,273
If that's the case, then I'm concerned.

560
00:33:51,013 --> 00:33:52,913
And then my other question is,

561
00:33:53,352 --> 00:33:56,273
let's say we just leave things as they are,

562
00:33:56,693 --> 00:33:57,813
whatever, keep the peace.

563
00:33:58,612 --> 00:34:00,773
I mean, people will just find other ways to store the data.

564
00:34:00,913 --> 00:34:03,173
And like, I mean, what's the issue?

565
00:34:03,253 --> 00:34:03,813
Let me answer it.

566
00:34:03,993 --> 00:34:05,253
And for the first answer,

567
00:34:05,313 --> 00:34:06,993
I don't know if you're on yet, Max,

568
00:34:07,033 --> 00:34:07,793
and maybe you missed it.

569
00:34:07,793 --> 00:34:12,352
But again, people can already store images

570
00:34:12,352 --> 00:34:13,993
on the Bitcoin blockchain.

571
00:34:14,313 --> 00:34:14,832
As inscriptions.

572
00:34:15,053 --> 00:34:16,933
Four times cheaper as inscriptions.

573
00:34:17,313 --> 00:34:17,533
Right.

574
00:34:17,653 --> 00:34:18,713
Well, there seems to be this,

575
00:34:19,332 --> 00:34:20,753
a lot of people seem to believe

576
00:34:20,753 --> 00:34:23,673
that getting rid of the policy limit

577
00:34:23,673 --> 00:34:26,253
of operaturn is enabling this.

578
00:34:26,753 --> 00:34:27,653
And it's not.

579
00:34:27,773 --> 00:34:28,973
It's already possible.

580
00:34:29,193 --> 00:34:30,273
It's already happening.

581
00:34:30,493 --> 00:34:31,633
There's plenty of evidence.

582
00:34:32,093 --> 00:34:33,713
And it's four times cheaper to do it

583
00:34:33,713 --> 00:34:35,093
the way that people have already been doing it.

584
00:34:35,332 --> 00:34:35,513
Right.

585
00:34:35,513 --> 00:34:37,352
And I already spoke on the show

586
00:34:37,352 --> 00:34:39,213
a few minutes ago about why,

587
00:34:39,553 --> 00:34:40,873
the only scenario I can imagine

588
00:34:40,873 --> 00:34:43,752
that someone would use op return for a big image

589
00:34:43,752 --> 00:34:46,433
and is to make a political point about this particular thing.

590
00:34:46,793 --> 00:34:47,752
There's no other reason.

591
00:34:47,993 --> 00:34:51,953
If you want to attack Bitcoin and bloat the blockchain as much as possible,

592
00:34:52,173 --> 00:34:53,053
you'll use an inscription

593
00:34:53,053 --> 00:34:56,473
because you can put a four megabyte image in the block

594
00:34:56,473 --> 00:35:13,445
instead of only one megabyte And the point about you have to download this during IBD That true but it also true for witness data So so again and so to the degree that people are storing JPEGs and

595
00:35:13,445 --> 00:35:20,665
opportunist set of inscriptions, it's helping IBD. It's helping the person in the global South with

596
00:35:20,665 --> 00:35:25,525
a cheaper computer. So just to be clear, one megabyte is smaller than four megabytes.

597
00:35:25,525 --> 00:35:33,065
Okay, so the cost, so this is the point I don't fully understand. So if you do an inscription, you're paying 4x to get whatever data you want in there?

598
00:35:33,385 --> 00:35:37,465
No, no, you get the witness discount. You're paying four times less.

599
00:35:37,985 --> 00:35:48,505
Oh, got it, got it, got it. Okay, I see your point. So you're saying in this world, and even in this world though, if you, any additional data you append to the blockchain, no matter what, you have to pay a fee.

600
00:35:48,505 --> 00:35:50,585
you're saying the inscription is cheaper

601
00:35:50,585 --> 00:35:52,585
so people are going to keep doing what already exists

602
00:35:52,585 --> 00:35:54,585
if they want to do the witness data

603
00:35:54,585 --> 00:35:56,685
they're going to have to pay more which says there is

604
00:35:56,685 --> 00:35:57,985
a filter and the filters fees

605
00:35:57,985 --> 00:36:00,605
you don't have to pay more for the witness data

606
00:36:00,605 --> 00:36:04,025
maybe you meant to say opportune data

607
00:36:04,025 --> 00:36:05,225
opportune data yeah thank you

608
00:36:05,225 --> 00:36:05,545
yeah okay

609
00:36:05,545 --> 00:36:08,845
yeah so and again

610
00:36:08,845 --> 00:36:09,505
there seems

611
00:36:09,505 --> 00:36:12,725
it seems people are not realizing

612
00:36:12,725 --> 00:36:14,845
they think that the block size is increasing

613
00:36:14,845 --> 00:36:17,025
or something like we're protected

614
00:36:17,025 --> 00:36:18,725
the reason we're protected

615
00:36:18,725 --> 00:36:21,045
to have cheaper computers

616
00:36:21,045 --> 00:36:22,105
be able to run a Bitcoin node

617
00:36:22,105 --> 00:36:23,385
is because of the block size.

618
00:36:23,665 --> 00:36:25,005
The block size is not changing.

619
00:36:26,205 --> 00:36:27,885
Yeah, so I don't see what the issue is.

620
00:36:28,145 --> 00:36:29,985
So then, I mean, I guess my second question to you,

621
00:36:30,045 --> 00:36:31,965
I mean, so I'm very much in the camp

622
00:36:31,965 --> 00:36:32,925
of fees of the filter,

623
00:36:33,285 --> 00:36:34,145
free markets will solve

624
00:36:34,145 --> 00:36:35,145
if you don't believe in free markets,

625
00:36:35,225 --> 00:36:36,465
like go run your own centralized chain.

626
00:36:37,365 --> 00:36:38,785
What I don't understand is

627
00:36:38,785 --> 00:36:40,265
why do we even need to make this change

628
00:36:40,265 --> 00:36:40,785
in the first place?

629
00:36:40,845 --> 00:36:41,445
I get your point.

630
00:36:41,565 --> 00:36:43,265
Yes, it was paternalistic in the first place.

631
00:36:43,585 --> 00:36:44,865
All things equal, we should have left.

632
00:36:45,145 --> 00:36:45,965
I just answered that.

633
00:36:46,045 --> 00:36:46,865
I gave three reasons.

634
00:36:46,865 --> 00:36:49,725
I gave a long-term risk, mining centralization fears.

635
00:36:49,885 --> 00:36:52,365
I gave a short-term risk, which is UGXL bloat.

636
00:36:52,605 --> 00:36:55,865
And then a third reason is the more philosophical paternalistic.

637
00:36:56,745 --> 00:36:59,785
Well, let's go through each of this because I'm not sure I fully understand a grok.

638
00:36:59,945 --> 00:37:00,865
So on the first one...

639
00:37:01,425 --> 00:37:02,605
First one's like the slipstream one.

640
00:37:02,625 --> 00:37:03,885
No, I get the argument.

641
00:37:04,005 --> 00:37:08,045
But I guess what I don't understand is if you really want to get something done out of band,

642
00:37:08,505 --> 00:37:11,025
why wouldn't you just do an inscription if it's cheaper anyway?

643
00:37:13,405 --> 00:37:14,025
What do you mean?

644
00:37:14,305 --> 00:37:16,025
Well, so it like...

645
00:37:16,025 --> 00:37:16,665
Why does...

646
00:37:16,865 --> 00:37:21,725
We don't want, I mean, for the health of the network, we don't want people going out of band.

647
00:37:21,965 --> 00:37:25,345
Totally. I totally understand why we don't want people out of band. My question is why,

648
00:37:25,685 --> 00:37:32,425
if we keep the current op return at whatever it is, 40 megabytes or kilobytes or whatever it is,

649
00:37:32,425 --> 00:37:39,125
40 bytes, I assume, right? Is that right? Yeah. If we don't do that, why does doubling it

650
00:37:39,125 --> 00:37:46,305
or taking off the limit entirely increase the likelihood? If we leave it as is,

651
00:37:46,305 --> 00:37:47,725
why would more people go out of band?

652
00:37:48,345 --> 00:37:48,865
Why can't they?

653
00:37:49,285 --> 00:37:50,945
If they want to get extra data in

654
00:37:50,945 --> 00:37:51,905
and it's cheaper to do it

655
00:37:51,905 --> 00:37:53,005
via the inscription mechanism,

656
00:37:53,085 --> 00:37:53,945
why is anyone going to use this

657
00:37:53,945 --> 00:37:54,545
in the first place?

658
00:37:55,825 --> 00:37:57,925
Yeah, so for Operatorn,

659
00:37:57,985 --> 00:37:58,825
I think it's largely

660
00:37:58,825 --> 00:38:02,505
the wanting to put like 140 bytes.

661
00:38:03,485 --> 00:38:05,545
There's like a window between 80 bytes

662
00:38:05,545 --> 00:38:06,925
and I think it's around 144

663
00:38:06,925 --> 00:38:09,305
that it's cheaper to use Operatorn

664
00:38:09,305 --> 00:38:10,185
than inscriptions.

665
00:38:11,685 --> 00:38:13,985
And so for anyone wanting to use that,

666
00:38:13,985 --> 00:38:19,705
it makes sense to use opportune over inscriptions.

667
00:38:21,465 --> 00:38:24,945
Okay, I mean, is that, I mean, like, I don't know,

668
00:38:25,025 --> 00:38:26,925
it seems kind of like a marginal issue to me then.

669
00:38:27,145 --> 00:38:28,325
Like, I don't know.

670
00:38:28,845 --> 00:38:31,445
It is a marginal, which is why it's like,

671
00:38:31,665 --> 00:38:36,145
there's clearly underlying reasons beyond this trivial change

672
00:38:36,145 --> 00:38:41,365
that has people, you know, saying chain code is corrupt

673
00:38:41,365 --> 00:38:43,165
and core devs are corrupt

674
00:38:43,165 --> 00:38:45,725
and all these personal attacks.

675
00:38:46,285 --> 00:38:48,205
Well, so just to play devil's advocate,

676
00:38:48,385 --> 00:38:50,165
and my strong opinion is

677
00:38:50,165 --> 00:38:51,765
if it becomes this much of a fight,

678
00:38:51,885 --> 00:38:52,945
I think everyone's better off

679
00:38:52,945 --> 00:38:54,725
just like if people want to run their own,

680
00:38:54,925 --> 00:38:55,665
like free markets.

681
00:38:55,825 --> 00:38:56,705
If you want to run knots,

682
00:38:56,845 --> 00:38:57,525
knock yourself out.

683
00:38:57,585 --> 00:38:58,345
If you want a hard fork,

684
00:38:58,485 --> 00:38:59,325
knock yourself out.

685
00:38:59,545 --> 00:39:02,845
Like people will dump the whatever fork that doesn't.

686
00:39:03,445 --> 00:39:04,385
We've seen this with Bcash.

687
00:39:04,465 --> 00:39:05,465
Like I'm not worried about that.

688
00:39:06,185 --> 00:39:06,925
One thing, I mean,

689
00:39:06,945 --> 00:39:09,605
it would be better to avoid a civil war if possible.

690
00:39:09,605 --> 00:39:11,705
so my question on that is

691
00:39:11,705 --> 00:39:13,925
I mean

692
00:39:13,925 --> 00:39:16,025
I know you already gave three arguments but like

693
00:39:16,025 --> 00:39:18,125
is it the end of the world if we just like leave everything

694
00:39:18,125 --> 00:39:19,725
as it is and just focus on other stuff

695
00:39:19,725 --> 00:39:22,025
I think I mean if

696
00:39:22,025 --> 00:39:24,165
if there's technical justification

697
00:39:24,165 --> 00:39:26,085
if there's technical

698
00:39:26,085 --> 00:39:27,765
justification for a change

699
00:39:27,765 --> 00:39:29,505
I don't think a social mob

700
00:39:29,505 --> 00:39:32,185
should impact that

701
00:39:32,185 --> 00:39:34,205
change sure but like there's

702
00:39:34,205 --> 00:39:36,205
a lot of things that would be like better I mean

703
00:39:36,205 --> 00:39:38,245
yes in the abstract but there's a lot

704
00:39:38,245 --> 00:39:39,545
Like we always have to make trade-offs.

705
00:39:39,665 --> 00:39:43,425
I think fighting mining centralization is worth fighting for.

706
00:39:43,745 --> 00:39:45,685
So I think that's the argument that maybe,

707
00:39:46,005 --> 00:39:47,345
and I know you've sort of fleshed it out here,

708
00:39:47,405 --> 00:39:49,165
but maybe the Bitcoin core community in general

709
00:39:49,165 --> 00:39:50,165
could do a better job of.

710
00:39:50,405 --> 00:39:52,645
That's why I wanted to cover this topic again today.

711
00:39:53,865 --> 00:39:57,945
I also think UTXO bloat size is important as well.

712
00:40:00,005 --> 00:40:01,785
Like minimizing UTXO bloat,

713
00:40:01,845 --> 00:40:04,005
like permanently unspendable,

714
00:40:04,085 --> 00:40:06,325
or things that like in theory could be spent,

715
00:40:06,325 --> 00:40:07,485
but won't be,

716
00:40:08,185 --> 00:40:10,285
minimizing that harm is very important.

717
00:40:10,585 --> 00:40:12,465
It gets to the exact point you made, Max,

718
00:40:12,485 --> 00:40:13,305
which is it's important

719
00:40:13,305 --> 00:40:15,145
to make it as cheap as possible

720
00:40:15,145 --> 00:40:16,265
to run Bitcoin software.

721
00:40:16,945 --> 00:40:18,645
So yes, I think this is important.

722
00:40:19,025 --> 00:40:20,385
Is there a definitive piece

723
00:40:20,385 --> 00:40:21,205
that someone has written

724
00:40:21,205 --> 00:40:22,585
that just shows all of these numbers?

725
00:40:22,805 --> 00:40:24,365
And like, because what I would love to see is like,

726
00:40:24,425 --> 00:40:25,845
and maybe if someone really cares,

727
00:40:25,885 --> 00:40:27,185
instead of doing character assassination,

728
00:40:27,385 --> 00:40:28,385
all this, which I'm seeing online,

729
00:40:28,445 --> 00:40:29,145
which is just ridiculous,

730
00:40:29,485 --> 00:40:31,525
like I would love to see super, super clear

731
00:40:31,525 --> 00:40:32,665
the math of like, hey guys,

732
00:40:33,185 --> 00:40:34,225
here's the status quo,

733
00:40:34,325 --> 00:40:35,005
here's the change,

734
00:40:35,005 --> 00:40:38,985
here's what this does in numbers are best modeling for mining centralization and bloat.

735
00:40:39,625 --> 00:40:40,805
Take this and that's it.

736
00:40:40,805 --> 00:40:43,125
It's almost almost like I'd almost like to see that written out.

737
00:40:43,165 --> 00:40:46,185
Like if you believe in X, then choose this.

738
00:40:46,345 --> 00:40:48,145
If you believe in Y, then choose this.

739
00:40:48,485 --> 00:40:51,705
And how you phrase those is kind of tricky because I can get political.

740
00:40:52,185 --> 00:40:55,685
But I think if you could sort of compare them in such a way where you have to say, like,

741
00:40:55,725 --> 00:40:59,865
I believe X in their fairly neutral statements, I think that would help people.

742
00:41:00,005 --> 00:41:01,245
I mean, you've already got in the debate.

743
00:41:01,245 --> 00:41:04,645
BTC for plebs, who I assume was kind of skeptical of some of this saying that's fair fighting

744
00:41:04,645 --> 00:41:06,485
for mining decentralization is a good buy.

745
00:41:06,585 --> 00:41:08,985
I think everyone has gotten way too in the weeds.

746
00:41:09,105 --> 00:41:10,305
It's been way too much online.

747
00:41:10,665 --> 00:41:11,945
And if we want to make it super clear,

748
00:41:12,045 --> 00:41:14,005
just like let's lay out the numbers of decentralization.

749
00:41:15,625 --> 00:41:16,345
That's my view.

750
00:41:18,025 --> 00:41:18,425
Cool.

751
00:41:19,885 --> 00:41:25,385
I think we're talking about the V30 versus Nots thing,

752
00:41:25,385 --> 00:41:29,485
but was there anything in this like forking Bitcoin is different,

753
00:41:29,725 --> 00:41:31,085
like a hard fork of Bitcoin is different

754
00:41:31,085 --> 00:41:34,205
than just having a different node implementation, right?

755
00:41:34,645 --> 00:41:38,665
is there an actual discussion about a hard fork?

756
00:41:38,785 --> 00:41:40,165
I think Adam Back or Luke Dash,

757
00:41:40,525 --> 00:41:41,985
was talking about Luke Dash Jr. maybe?

758
00:41:42,405 --> 00:41:42,945
Is that real?

759
00:41:43,085 --> 00:41:44,445
I don't know if that's real or what.

760
00:41:44,485 --> 00:41:45,505
There's an article on it.

761
00:41:46,025 --> 00:41:46,485
I mean, first of all,

762
00:41:46,485 --> 00:41:49,785
I don't think it's super cool to share private DMs.

763
00:41:49,785 --> 00:41:51,625
So I think that's uncool.

764
00:41:51,985 --> 00:41:57,665
But I suspect they're authentic.

765
00:41:59,525 --> 00:42:02,725
And yeah, I think, I mean, in those messages,

766
00:42:02,905 --> 00:42:03,945
Luke said hard fork.

767
00:42:03,945 --> 00:42:10,365
I think he has his own lexicon and definitions for what hard fork even means.

768
00:42:10,605 --> 00:42:16,925
So I think it's, I don't think he meant hard fork in the way that the rest of us interpret hard fork.

769
00:42:18,505 --> 00:42:26,185
I also think it's like perfectly reasonable, especially in a private discussion about just like crazy ass ideas.

770
00:42:26,565 --> 00:42:33,385
Like if you have a goal of like how to stop the spam and think about different tech, because like, again, we stated in the show,

771
00:42:33,385 --> 00:42:38,365
it like no engineer knows how to stop it and bitnext research again had that really good post

772
00:42:38,365 --> 00:42:45,385
on unstoppable jpegs so it's completely reasonable to like think privately about or you know think

773
00:42:45,385 --> 00:42:51,165
about um whether private or public but think about uh ways to stop it but um i don't know the

774
00:42:51,165 --> 00:42:58,725
particular method he was apparently thinking through um certainly has some scary ramifications

775
00:42:58,725 --> 00:43:01,505
my understanding of it

776
00:43:01,505 --> 00:43:04,225
it would be introducing zero knowledge proofs

777
00:43:04,225 --> 00:43:07,585
to help you eliminate certain transactions

778
00:43:07,585 --> 00:43:09,445
that have

779
00:43:09,445 --> 00:43:13,105
content that is undesired

780
00:43:13,105 --> 00:43:14,845
but it introduces trust

781
00:43:14,845 --> 00:43:17,245
because there needs to be a trusted party to determine

782
00:43:17,245 --> 00:43:19,085
what is the bad content

783
00:43:19,085 --> 00:43:21,205
and this harkens back to

784
00:43:21,205 --> 00:43:24,185
what four years ago when Apple announced

785
00:43:24,185 --> 00:43:28,285
that they were going to start scanning all the photos in your phone

786
00:43:28,285 --> 00:43:31,705
for CSAM.

787
00:43:32,245 --> 00:43:35,485
So you start with this very disgusting activity

788
00:43:35,485 --> 00:43:39,485
that society at large has consensus on.

789
00:43:39,565 --> 00:43:41,325
This is bad, bad content.

790
00:43:43,025 --> 00:43:45,905
But it crosses a huge threshold

791
00:43:45,905 --> 00:43:47,505
of where all of a sudden,

792
00:43:48,305 --> 00:43:50,585
it's not only Apple scanning your photos,

793
00:43:50,585 --> 00:43:52,985
but they're using an algorithm

794
00:43:52,985 --> 00:43:55,385
that they don't even know what it is.

795
00:43:55,385 --> 00:44:01,985
some other person or group or committee or entity says, here's the bad stuff.

796
00:44:02,725 --> 00:44:04,505
Apple doesn't know what that stuff is.

797
00:44:04,825 --> 00:44:08,045
The consumer don't know what that stuff is, but it's just labeled bad.

798
00:44:08,345 --> 00:44:14,445
And then if you have bad content, you're flagged and then you'll get in trouble or whatever.

799
00:44:15,485 --> 00:44:20,005
I think that's incredibly dangerous to introduce such a system on Bitcoin.

800
00:44:20,185 --> 00:44:20,925
It's a slippery slope.

801
00:44:21,125 --> 00:44:24,325
And Adam Back talked about the slippery slope there.

802
00:44:24,325 --> 00:44:28,405
And that's a totally separate argument. People want to debate whether or not opportunity should

803
00:44:28,405 --> 00:44:33,445
be increased. That's whatever. But adding zero knowledge proofs to try and scan what's in and

804
00:44:33,445 --> 00:44:38,805
whatnot in the blockchain, that sounds insane to me. The whole idea that Bitcoin is neutral

805
00:44:38,805 --> 00:44:44,085
is destroyed right there. And we have institutions, and this is where I guess I'm not a full crypto

806
00:44:44,085 --> 00:44:47,685
anarchist forever. There's still going to be a government. And if you post horrible things,

807
00:44:48,405 --> 00:44:51,925
I know, if you post horrible, or you do it at a higher level if you want to do it without a

808
00:44:51,925 --> 00:44:57,545
government one day. But the point is, we still have people that break the law should be investigated

809
00:44:57,545 --> 00:45:04,765
and go to jail, but that's not Bitcoin's role to decide. That seems to me just a terrible argument

810
00:45:04,765 --> 00:45:10,265
on face, not even worth addressing. Yeah. So at a really high level, I feel like we know of no

811
00:45:10,265 --> 00:45:19,365
mechanism to stop spam on Bitcoin without these introducing trust solutions or non-solutions.

812
00:45:19,365 --> 00:45:25,505
the mechanism built into bitcoin from day one though is fees you have to pay fees so everyone

813
00:45:25,505 --> 00:45:32,725
getting pissed off about jpegs in the blockchain well we all need to find ways to create more demand

814
00:45:32,725 --> 00:45:37,185
for monetary transactions on bitcoin we talk about that every week in the show because we care about

815
00:45:37,185 --> 00:45:43,025
it and i know everyone in the knots camp and the anti-span camp feel the same way but i just i

816
00:45:43,025 --> 00:45:48,625
They encourage them and everyone in Bitcoin to let's spend Bitcoin more often.

817
00:45:48,765 --> 00:45:51,445
Let's build applications that encourage people to spend their Bitcoin.

818
00:45:51,925 --> 00:45:53,325
Let's use Bitcoin as money.

819
00:45:53,705 --> 00:45:55,145
And then fees will be paid for that.

820
00:45:55,425 --> 00:45:58,945
That'll be the data that goes in the blockchain and we'll be extremely happy.

821
00:45:59,365 --> 00:46:02,185
So that's, to me, the high order bit for all this stuff.

822
00:46:02,605 --> 00:46:05,285
We can't stop it other than doing what I just said.

823
00:46:05,285 --> 00:46:07,665
Well, we've been working on that this week.

824
00:46:07,665 --> 00:46:11,745
if we can put a bow on this thing

825
00:46:11,745 --> 00:46:13,385
I could tell you about

826
00:46:13,385 --> 00:46:15,745
some of the experimentation in that area

827
00:46:15,745 --> 00:46:17,165
I think it might blow Max's mind

828
00:46:17,165 --> 00:46:18,645
so I don't think he's heard anything about this

829
00:46:18,645 --> 00:46:21,125
but I want to check Steve

830
00:46:21,125 --> 00:46:22,385
what's your timing look like?

831
00:46:22,465 --> 00:46:23,405
are you another 15 minutes?

832
00:46:24,405 --> 00:46:27,605
well the good thing is I relocated in Manhattan

833
00:46:27,605 --> 00:46:29,245
so I'm closer to the airport

834
00:46:29,245 --> 00:46:31,485
I think I can go

835
00:46:31,485 --> 00:46:35,345
30 more minutes

836
00:46:35,345 --> 00:47:00,705
Okay. So I think this is, you know, I'd sort of frame it as experimental, not fully polished and stuff. But we, you know, we talk all the time about payment use cases and how to build new things that are sort of natively on Bitcoin and for Bitcoin and use Bitcoin for payment use cases.

837
00:47:00,705 --> 00:47:05,945
and uh and then you and i specifically i think maybe even on the show you have talked about

838
00:47:05,945 --> 00:47:15,205
sort of the ways to have ai agents kind of run themselves right yes and so um i was i was sort

839
00:47:15,205 --> 00:47:19,445
of imagining that idea i think you and i have talked about i think you know our friend matt

840
00:47:19,445 --> 00:47:25,625
who i think everybody knows matt um was also kind of he and i have been sort of jamming on this idea

841
00:47:25,625 --> 00:47:34,225
for a while and um this week he actually put together a little bit of an experiment uh kind

842
00:47:34,225 --> 00:47:39,565
of the working title is is micro platform and it's a way have you seen this well he told me a little

843
00:47:39,565 --> 00:47:44,805
bit about last week oh he did okay but it didn't exist last week right no it was a concept now it

844
00:47:44,805 --> 00:47:49,025
exists i've used it's not it's not in production yet so it's all right it's very think of it as

845
00:47:49,025 --> 00:47:53,765
like very experimental it's still being formed and shaped it's not this isn't like meant to be

846
00:47:53,765 --> 00:47:59,345
like hey everybody hop in and use it um but it's it's kind of cool what what it lets you do is you

847
00:47:59,345 --> 00:48:06,125
create a micro business so you could do it as a human but you could also do as an ai

848
00:48:06,125 --> 00:48:12,145
and it's effectively like a very lightweight vibe coding thing like you go just type something like

849
00:48:12,145 --> 00:48:18,085
i think my first prompt was make a tic-tac-toe game and then you have to pay a thousand bitcoin

850
00:48:18,085 --> 00:48:20,765
So it has a price to like make the thing, right?

851
00:48:21,605 --> 00:48:25,845
And then it has like how many times your business gets created.

852
00:48:26,245 --> 00:48:27,785
And it has a unique URL.

853
00:48:28,085 --> 00:48:32,385
It gets paired with a Nostra identity.

854
00:48:32,785 --> 00:48:34,465
Ooh, it's already using Nostra right now.

855
00:48:34,825 --> 00:48:35,545
It's right now.

856
00:48:35,625 --> 00:48:37,085
You can go on Nostra and see these things.

857
00:48:37,245 --> 00:48:38,205
All right, this is much more interesting.

858
00:48:38,205 --> 00:48:41,245
It creates a profile for the business.

859
00:48:41,365 --> 00:48:41,545
Cool.

860
00:48:42,165 --> 00:48:44,205
And it has a private public key pair.

861
00:48:44,325 --> 00:48:46,265
You don't have to sign up at all for any of this.

862
00:48:46,265 --> 00:48:47,265
This is post-corporated.

863
00:48:47,265 --> 00:48:55,065
happen. Post-corporation, the next generation. Yeah, it really is. And it has, right now it's

864
00:48:55,065 --> 00:48:59,505
kind of structured as a master wallet that each of the businesses is kind of like a sub account,

865
00:48:59,605 --> 00:49:03,885
but you can sort of give them each their own non-custodial wallet eventually. I love this.

866
00:49:04,405 --> 00:49:10,645
And then each business can run, can be owned by somebody who controls the private key,

867
00:49:10,645 --> 00:49:14,425
but obviously you didn't set up traditional payments infrastructure, you didn't set up a

868
00:49:14,425 --> 00:49:19,665
traditional corporation. You didn't set up any of the kind of fundamentals or foundations that you

869
00:49:19,665 --> 00:49:23,725
assume. You just kind of like make a thing, put it out in the world, but it kind of has to be able

870
00:49:23,725 --> 00:49:28,345
to, like somebody has to fund it. So the initial person who like creates it funds it, but you could

871
00:49:28,345 --> 00:49:32,625
imagine that it generates its own money, you know, kind of has some sort of service that people are

872
00:49:32,625 --> 00:49:39,905
willing to pay for. And so I got the tic-tac-toe game working. I think Matt has, you know, five or

873
00:49:39,905 --> 00:49:42,805
six different like an image generator thing.

874
00:49:42,805 --> 00:49:46,605
And when you start to play with it,

875
00:49:46,885 --> 00:49:48,025
it's kind of like, yeah,

876
00:49:48,065 --> 00:49:50,205
this just seems like the obvious future,

877
00:49:50,305 --> 00:49:51,845
like the way you get to the AI

878
00:49:51,845 --> 00:49:54,005
being able to start and run its own business

879
00:49:54,005 --> 00:49:55,045
with a little bit of seed capital

880
00:49:55,045 --> 00:49:58,065
is really, we can do it with humans today

881
00:49:58,065 --> 00:50:00,785
and we can imagine making AIs

882
00:50:00,785 --> 00:50:03,725
do that piece of it over time.

883
00:50:05,425 --> 00:50:08,205
And I was actually, I was saying like,

884
00:50:08,205 --> 00:50:12,985
look, instead of just having our five or six of our own little play things, what if we just have

885
00:50:12,985 --> 00:50:17,425
an AI generate 100 ideas of the things that we should build? And then we can kind of prioritize

886
00:50:17,425 --> 00:50:21,265
those. And run the experiments and have evolution. I mean, this to me, like, this is how Bitcoin

887
00:50:21,265 --> 00:50:25,425
actually gets used for payments. This is awesome. Yeah. Is it live? Matt, if you're listening,

888
00:50:25,805 --> 00:50:29,685
share with me the link, man. I'm sad you haven't already shared it privately. I want to see this.

889
00:50:29,805 --> 00:50:36,645
It's kind of, it's on a live URL. It's not on a public URL that's stable. So it's kind of like,

890
00:50:36,645 --> 00:50:38,405
you know, it's being built with Replit.

891
00:50:38,765 --> 00:50:41,545
So it has those like kind of intermediate URLs,

892
00:50:41,865 --> 00:50:43,825
like dev URLs that are available briefly.

893
00:50:43,985 --> 00:50:46,325
But we'll share a version of it.

894
00:50:46,665 --> 00:50:49,145
And I'll, I mean, yeah.

895
00:50:49,145 --> 00:50:50,585
And if anybody's interested in playing with it,

896
00:50:50,585 --> 00:50:53,785
you can DM me and I'll get you connected and stuff.

897
00:50:53,885 --> 00:50:54,045
That's great.

898
00:50:54,405 --> 00:50:54,505
Yeah.

899
00:50:55,285 --> 00:50:56,285
This is the kind of thing

900
00:50:56,285 --> 00:50:58,125
we've talked about many, many times in the show.

901
00:50:58,285 --> 00:51:00,005
Like instead of people spinning their wheels

902
00:51:00,005 --> 00:51:02,025
and like probably like playing into a state attack,

903
00:51:02,145 --> 00:51:03,505
like be the change you want to see in the world.

904
00:51:03,785 --> 00:51:05,065
We want Bitcoin to actually be used.

905
00:51:05,125 --> 00:51:05,805
Let's find a use case.

906
00:51:05,805 --> 00:51:17,445
By the way, I think it's also just worth mentioning while all the drama is happening in Bitcoin, like FYI, over in like normie land, we've got all the shitcoiners coming out in full storm, which I want to talk more about in relationship with this.

907
00:51:17,825 --> 00:51:20,085
Cloudflare is now doing a stablecoin in their own chain.

908
00:51:20,165 --> 00:51:21,325
You've got Google doing their chain.

909
00:51:21,665 --> 00:51:24,605
All this stuff while we're all over here fighting a silly battle.

910
00:51:25,005 --> 00:51:25,845
Google doesn't have a chain.

911
00:51:26,125 --> 00:51:27,485
Google GCL is not a chain.

912
00:51:27,685 --> 00:51:27,945
Whatever.

913
00:51:28,245 --> 00:51:28,745
It's a database.

914
00:51:28,905 --> 00:51:29,825
It says we're a database.

915
00:51:29,985 --> 00:51:31,165
Let's be a neutral database, right?

916
00:51:31,225 --> 00:51:32,605
Well, it's an important point.

917
00:51:32,765 --> 00:51:34,045
That's why I think it's more compelling.

918
00:51:34,425 --> 00:51:35,505
Yeah, but they're all just databases.

919
00:51:35,505 --> 00:51:36,005
I mean, yes.

920
00:51:36,005 --> 00:51:37,505
No, no, it's literally a database.

921
00:51:37,705 --> 00:51:38,305
It's not a coin.

922
00:51:38,385 --> 00:51:39,705
It doesn't have a blockchain.

923
00:51:40,305 --> 00:51:41,305
So there's no consensus?

924
00:51:42,285 --> 00:51:46,245
I guess it's probably Google, you know, business deals.

925
00:51:46,325 --> 00:51:48,965
Because remember, all the other ones have always been like,

926
00:51:49,185 --> 00:51:50,785
it's a blockchain, but it was always just a database

927
00:51:50,785 --> 00:51:52,765
with a few nodes and the nodes were the corporate.

928
00:51:53,125 --> 00:51:55,725
This doesn't try to convince you that it's a blockchain.

929
00:51:55,865 --> 00:51:57,025
It doesn't convince you there's a token.

930
00:51:57,105 --> 00:51:58,125
It just says, it's a database.

931
00:51:58,245 --> 00:51:59,345
Let's all work together on this database.

932
00:51:59,445 --> 00:52:00,465
To be clear, that used to be illegal.

933
00:52:01,285 --> 00:52:02,765
That's the reason the blockchain theater came out.

934
00:52:02,765 --> 00:52:08,065
Well, it's illegal to issue equity that you call a coin.

935
00:52:08,625 --> 00:52:10,905
So you call it a coin so that you don't get...

936
00:52:10,905 --> 00:52:12,985
But it's also illegal to be a money transmitter or not.

937
00:52:13,125 --> 00:52:14,865
I mean, I'm sure they'll get all their licenses,

938
00:52:15,045 --> 00:52:16,085
but they don't have all the licenses.

939
00:52:16,285 --> 00:52:19,565
To be clear, Facebook, I mean, yes, they also had their coin,

940
00:52:19,645 --> 00:52:20,525
which was a separate story,

941
00:52:20,585 --> 00:52:22,225
but they were trying to do something somewhat similar

942
00:52:22,225 --> 00:52:23,165
as my understanding of Libra,

943
00:52:23,685 --> 00:52:25,585
and that didn't fly in the past.

944
00:52:26,745 --> 00:52:28,045
New administration, you can try new stuff.

945
00:52:28,125 --> 00:52:40,438
Anyways my point is these are all like they not issuing their own stable coin right Sure but even still if you like the payment rail and you competing with Visa you still have to have all the whatever licenses

946
00:52:40,638 --> 00:52:41,978
I don't know what all licenses are.

947
00:52:42,078 --> 00:52:44,578
I don't know what licenses they're going to get,

948
00:52:44,678 --> 00:52:48,278
but part of their marketing was that they're going to be fully compliant.

949
00:52:48,658 --> 00:52:48,918
Amazing.

950
00:52:49,098 --> 00:52:49,598
And I love that.

951
00:52:49,858 --> 00:52:51,918
But my point is Facebook was also, I mean, yes,

952
00:52:52,218 --> 00:52:54,038
I imagine they looked at both options.

953
00:52:54,038 --> 00:52:56,738
They had the coin, which was backed by the basket of goods,

954
00:52:56,738 --> 00:52:58,898
but then they also had the rail,

955
00:52:59,058 --> 00:52:59,718
which was a blockchain,

956
00:52:59,858 --> 00:53:00,658
but really just a database.

957
00:53:01,518 --> 00:53:02,358
And I'm saying now,

958
00:53:02,458 --> 00:53:05,038
I think both of those are like two separate issues,

959
00:53:05,118 --> 00:53:07,878
but both largely were not allowed

960
00:53:07,878 --> 00:53:08,998
by Congress at the time.

961
00:53:09,438 --> 00:53:11,258
And today, the second piece,

962
00:53:11,338 --> 00:53:12,018
Google's taking out,

963
00:53:12,058 --> 00:53:12,818
but the first piece,

964
00:53:13,398 --> 00:53:15,358
there's a reason big tech hasn't been allowed,

965
00:53:15,518 --> 00:53:16,198
or maybe there's not,

966
00:53:16,278 --> 00:53:17,778
maybe I don't know all the history of this as well,

967
00:53:18,198 --> 00:53:20,138
but to compete directly with Visa.

968
00:53:20,758 --> 00:53:22,658
Like Visa's not going to like just take that, right?

969
00:53:22,878 --> 00:53:23,698
So I don't know.

970
00:53:23,778 --> 00:53:25,438
Anyways, my broader point is

971
00:53:25,438 --> 00:53:26,838
while all this debate is happening,

972
00:53:27,058 --> 00:53:28,718
like the centralized powers,

973
00:53:28,978 --> 00:53:30,158
X402 is catching on,

974
00:53:30,178 --> 00:53:32,538
which by the way, X402 just jacked L402's name

975
00:53:32,538 --> 00:53:34,538
and is running with all this stuff.

976
00:53:34,898 --> 00:53:37,638
And so I do think that time is a bit of the essence.

977
00:53:37,798 --> 00:53:39,558
I mean, I think in the long run, it doesn't matter.

978
00:53:39,698 --> 00:53:41,338
Everything has to come back to Bitcoin because it's open.

979
00:53:41,738 --> 00:53:44,618
But like, if we really want to not go through a dark age

980
00:53:44,618 --> 00:53:46,938
where, you know, payments get even more centralized

981
00:53:46,938 --> 00:53:47,898
and more controlled,

982
00:53:48,278 --> 00:53:49,878
then I think we need stuff like what you're saying

983
00:53:49,878 --> 00:53:51,298
that has to use Bitcoin

984
00:53:51,298 --> 00:53:52,778
because the agents are autonomous

985
00:53:52,778 --> 00:53:54,798
and there's no way to register them in the old system.

986
00:53:54,798 --> 00:53:58,478
before the new Cloudflare and Coinbase

987
00:53:58,478 --> 00:54:00,638
and all the shitcoin stuff pops off.

988
00:54:00,738 --> 00:54:02,758
So anyone who's fighting over a silly battle,

989
00:54:02,938 --> 00:54:05,098
focus your attention instead on what DK is saying

990
00:54:05,098 --> 00:54:06,878
and build agents that are using payments

991
00:54:06,878 --> 00:54:08,358
and everyone's going to be a lot happier.

992
00:54:09,478 --> 00:54:11,218
Well, I'll share.

993
00:54:11,378 --> 00:54:13,538
I mean, once we wrap this, I'll share and show you.

994
00:54:13,678 --> 00:54:15,178
But one of the things that I think is exciting

995
00:54:15,178 --> 00:54:18,038
about the structure of this thing

996
00:54:18,038 --> 00:54:21,018
is that anything that gets created on micro platform,

997
00:54:21,358 --> 00:54:23,698
you actually see everything else that's created.

998
00:54:23,698 --> 00:54:29,258
So like if you make something, all of a sudden anybody else who's using it to make their own things will see your thing.

999
00:54:29,478 --> 00:54:29,738
I love it.

1000
00:54:29,958 --> 00:54:38,858
And so in a sense, it has, I kind of was saying it feels a little bit like, you know, like what people used to use products hunt for is to kind of like, hey, here's a thing, you know, here's a thing I made, check it out.

1001
00:54:39,238 --> 00:54:46,438
Or, you know, I think like what TikTok does, it tries to get you the video that is kind of most interesting for you, given what it knows about you.

1002
00:54:46,498 --> 00:54:51,058
Well, obviously, a micro platform doesn't know anything about anybody yet, but it's like, here's all the stuff being made.

1003
00:54:51,058 --> 00:54:57,858
so it becomes a little bit of like a discovery or distribution hub for kind of bitcoin centric apps

1004
00:54:57,858 --> 00:55:02,658
that don't don't really have you know today they need a little bit of infrastructure running but

1005
00:55:02,658 --> 00:55:06,418
like long term they probably don't you have relay ecosystem or something like that and to be clear

1006
00:55:06,418 --> 00:55:09,778
you can't have the reputation right because if it's already using nostr this has always been what

1007
00:55:09,778 --> 00:55:13,938
we're all so bullish on nostr in the long run you just log in and all the reputation i've accrued

1008
00:55:13,938 --> 00:55:18,578
over you know using apps like primal or domus and fountain and all the rest can i can just bring

1009
00:55:18,578 --> 00:55:23,678
with me. Yeah. I gotta say, Matt, who I would say is kind of the mastermind behind that structure

1010
00:55:23,678 --> 00:55:29,258
that it sees today, was originally pretty skeptical of Nostr. And then he said, actually,

1011
00:55:29,278 --> 00:55:32,118
it's really useful for this thing. So I'm going to build with it. So I think it's a nice,

1012
00:55:32,698 --> 00:55:36,798
you know, I don't want to say he converted, but I think he's maybe appropriately skeptical of some

1013
00:55:36,798 --> 00:55:41,118
of the use cases of Nostr. You purple-pilled them. But when the infrastructure makes sense,

1014
00:55:41,398 --> 00:55:44,858
like it just, it's there. I love it. This is the most exciting thing I've heard all week.

1015
00:55:44,858 --> 00:55:51,458
So I have a couple notes here because I was asking Matt kind of about his framing for it.

1016
00:55:51,818 --> 00:55:55,198
And he was saying, you know, some open questions to explore.

1017
00:55:55,298 --> 00:55:58,018
So how much autonomy can these kind of businesses have and execute?

1018
00:55:58,298 --> 00:56:05,338
Today, it's more like I click a create button, I type a prompt, I pay the invoice, and then the thing exists.

1019
00:56:05,478 --> 00:56:06,978
It's not really autonomous in a sense.

1020
00:56:07,118 --> 00:56:12,098
Now I could generate 100 ideas, feed them in, and that's not still quite autonomous.

1021
00:56:12,098 --> 00:56:17,598
So at some point, in a sense, I should be getting out of the loop and these things should just be getting made by themselves.

1022
00:56:17,898 --> 00:56:28,538
So right now it's like a very human driven version, but I think it's like stepping stones that could graduate to the old vision that you've painted of like autonomous agents kind of just making their own businesses.

1023
00:56:28,978 --> 00:56:29,078
Right.

1024
00:56:29,858 --> 00:56:31,298
So that's one kind of open question.

1025
00:56:31,378 --> 00:56:32,618
How much autonomy can they have?

1026
00:56:33,658 --> 00:56:35,498
Should there be something like instant forking?

1027
00:56:35,498 --> 00:56:37,938
how much, like if I see,

1028
00:56:38,378 --> 00:56:39,778
if you see my tic-tac-toe game,

1029
00:56:39,898 --> 00:56:40,798
should you be able to show up and be like,

1030
00:56:40,858 --> 00:56:42,338
I actually want to take that tic-tac-toe game,

1031
00:56:42,778 --> 00:56:45,078
but I want to launch my own version of this business.

1032
00:56:45,438 --> 00:56:46,458
It's a separate business

1033
00:56:46,458 --> 00:56:48,458
that actually has a leaderboard attached to it.

1034
00:56:48,658 --> 00:56:49,018
Right?

1035
00:56:49,218 --> 00:56:49,658
I love it.

1036
00:56:50,398 --> 00:56:51,958
And it has kind of a GitHub,

1037
00:56:51,958 --> 00:56:54,138
open source feel to it,

1038
00:56:54,198 --> 00:56:54,838
which is another,

1039
00:56:55,298 --> 00:56:56,198
it kind of combines.

1040
00:56:56,518 --> 00:56:57,358
This is a great idea, Matt.

1041
00:56:57,418 --> 00:56:58,038
You should go on on this.

1042
00:56:58,038 --> 00:57:00,778
It kind of combines a ton of really cool things.

1043
00:57:01,778 --> 00:57:02,358
And then he was,

1044
00:57:02,878 --> 00:57:04,398
today you actually click create

1045
00:57:04,398 --> 00:57:06,638
and you type the prompt in there.

1046
00:57:06,778 --> 00:57:07,058
Yeah.

1047
00:57:07,698 --> 00:57:11,418
And probably this thing itself,

1048
00:57:12,198 --> 00:57:15,058
I'd say it's special in the layer of like

1049
00:57:15,058 --> 00:57:18,038
how to manage and collect and distribute payments

1050
00:57:18,038 --> 00:57:21,118
and how to kind of help people discover the apps.

1051
00:57:21,398 --> 00:57:24,298
But like the create and the create process

1052
00:57:24,298 --> 00:57:27,598
is not like the ultimate vibe coding activity.

1053
00:57:27,738 --> 00:57:30,158
Like there's plenty of other great vibe coding tools.

1054
00:57:30,278 --> 00:57:32,138
So one of the open questions that he was raising

1055
00:57:32,138 --> 00:57:34,238
is how rich a full vibe coding experience

1056
00:57:34,238 --> 00:57:35,298
should be built in natively.

1057
00:57:35,578 --> 00:57:37,178
Like if he wants to rebuild Repplet, basically.

1058
00:57:37,498 --> 00:57:39,258
Yeah, or do you provide integration hooks

1059
00:57:39,258 --> 00:57:41,578
to participate as a platform without building there?

1060
00:57:41,638 --> 00:57:43,498
And I actually built an app

1061
00:57:43,498 --> 00:57:46,018
that I've been meaning to build

1062
00:57:46,018 --> 00:57:50,758
as a demo version of this kind of thing.

1063
00:57:52,458 --> 00:57:54,478
But it's more like a specific app

1064
00:57:54,478 --> 00:57:56,718
that could then graduate to the broader platform.

1065
00:57:57,258 --> 00:57:59,138
And I found that I actually needed

1066
00:57:59,138 --> 00:58:00,518
to do a little more internal tweaking.

1067
00:58:00,518 --> 00:58:02,518
So I used Repplet,

1068
00:58:02,518 --> 00:58:06,438
and I am sort of like built by MicroPlatform,

1069
00:58:06,518 --> 00:58:08,658
but it's actually built sort of separately,

1070
00:58:08,818 --> 00:58:10,878
natively with the Replit tooling,

1071
00:58:11,258 --> 00:58:14,418
but kind of the distribution and payment integrations

1072
00:58:14,418 --> 00:58:16,718
with MicroPlatform are kind of,

1073
00:58:17,438 --> 00:58:18,478
that's sort of what I consider

1074
00:58:18,478 --> 00:58:19,938
by being like built on that.

1075
00:58:19,978 --> 00:58:22,778
So I really think it's like a distribution hub in a sense.

1076
00:58:23,178 --> 00:58:23,638
Yeah, I love it.

1077
00:58:23,638 --> 00:58:25,958
And a payment kind of hub in a sense,

1078
00:58:26,598 --> 00:58:29,378
but maybe it could be exported to,

1079
00:58:29,378 --> 00:58:34,718
you know to even most of those functions could be run sort of in a more decentralized way i love

1080
00:58:34,718 --> 00:58:39,658
this it sounds like you're mad at a startup and you can oh and you can imagine that in a sense

1081
00:58:39,658 --> 00:58:47,438
you're getting a little bit of a there's a a form of like if if you put in a thousand bitcoin to

1082
00:58:47,438 --> 00:58:51,518
create something presumably you own the whole thing yeah it's like equity yeah if you put in

1083
00:58:51,518 --> 00:58:56,818
500 and i put in 500 presumably we each own a piece of it and what's super dope about that is

1084
00:58:56,818 --> 00:58:58,118
you can even take that to the next level.

1085
00:58:58,238 --> 00:58:59,838
And like, you think about what is equity?

1086
00:58:59,998 --> 00:59:01,058
I mean, equity has two pieces.

1087
00:59:01,198 --> 00:59:03,278
There's the sort of like voting or control piece,

1088
00:59:03,298 --> 00:59:05,338
and then there's the claim on future cash flows.

1089
00:59:05,718 --> 00:59:06,878
So I've been thinking for a long time

1090
00:59:06,878 --> 00:59:09,138
about what is a claim on future cash flows look like

1091
00:59:09,138 --> 00:59:12,178
in this like non, whatever, in this internet first world.

1092
00:59:12,718 --> 00:59:14,038
And we've talked about this before.

1093
00:59:14,158 --> 00:59:15,818
I thought about from the music perspective,

1094
00:59:15,818 --> 00:59:17,558
where let's say you have a torrent of a song

1095
00:59:17,558 --> 00:59:19,338
and you're sharing that torrent.

1096
00:59:19,598 --> 00:59:23,138
And in this case, maybe people need to zap it

1097
00:59:23,138 --> 00:59:24,858
to listen to it, or maybe they just donate.

1098
00:59:24,858 --> 00:59:30,658
But either way, what you can do is you can have split payments like a waterfall built in.

1099
00:59:30,798 --> 00:59:37,358
So let's say, as an example, someone shares a song, they do the zap split payments of like,

1100
00:59:37,438 --> 00:59:44,638
okay, I took this drum kit from this producer I like, and now he gets a couple of bips from my future cash flows.

1101
00:59:44,978 --> 00:59:50,098
And then I took this voice from the singer I like, and now she gets a few more bips and all this stuff.

1102
00:59:50,098 --> 00:59:51,138
And you have this cash flow.

1103
00:59:51,138 --> 00:59:57,878
Now, one challenge there is like, wow, how do you know because information wants to be free that people are just going to like jack your code?

1104
00:59:57,958 --> 01:00:01,058
One is it's easier just to click work and people like easy.

1105
01:00:01,158 --> 01:00:10,498
And two is that you can build the incentives such that there's a, the shelling point is from the original author.

1106
01:00:10,758 --> 01:00:18,438
That's kind of like, so like when Radiohead released in Rainbows, Tom York released Tomorrow's Modern Boxes as Torrents, people could have taken from a different site.

1107
01:00:18,438 --> 01:00:32,098
But if they sign with their private key, again, why Nostra is important to this is me, and people that want to support the artist or people, and likewise, you can even have cuts built in where it's like in the future, if you push it, you get a share of the profits by being the marketing piece.

1108
01:00:32,398 --> 01:00:34,058
The same thing is going to work for software or apps.

1109
01:00:34,318 --> 01:00:37,218
So it's like, okay, cool, this app is super popular, like Skibity.

1110
01:00:37,878 --> 01:00:38,918
Skibity is super popular.

1111
01:00:39,058 --> 01:00:41,038
I'm going to fork Skibity and the original Skibity.

1112
01:00:41,038 --> 01:00:45,798
why because now our incentives are aligned then the people in the skibbity community to push

1113
01:00:45,798 --> 01:00:51,138
you know this water flow waterfall versus another one yeah i love it this is one of the best ideas

1114
01:00:51,138 --> 01:00:57,118
you all have had cool well i'll i'll share soon at least privately once i get it up that first app

1115
01:00:57,118 --> 01:01:04,978
which is a it's a community video collaboration app so have you have you ever seen um this was

1116
01:01:04,978 --> 01:01:09,578
from like 25 years ago do you ever see no subservient chicken definitely this is like a

1117
01:01:09,578 --> 01:01:14,378
webcam where you're watching a chicken a guy in a chicken suit what are they doing i'll do whatever

1118
01:01:14,378 --> 01:01:19,378
you ask him to do oh no i mean within reason there's probably some guardrails on that uh-oh

1119
01:01:19,378 --> 01:01:23,138
but you can do this now with video generation right sounds like we might need a zero knowledge

1120
01:01:23,138 --> 01:01:30,858
proof so so this this app that i built you can um you can you know there's a character and you can

1121
01:01:30,858 --> 01:01:36,058
see what other people made the character do and then you can prompt yourself pay 500 bitcoin or

1122
01:01:36,058 --> 01:01:41,278
thousand bitcoin and then it generates the video of the character doing whatever you whatever idea

1123
01:01:41,278 --> 01:01:47,058
you had like oh it's cool blow me a kiss or uh you know do yoga or you know do jumping jacks whatever

1124
01:01:47,058 --> 01:01:53,638
so interesting first uh first prompt the deacon you sorry that's what's actually on the site

1125
01:01:53,638 --> 01:02:01,618
um so anyway that is uh that is what we're hacking around on it's a great idea anyway if you want to

1126
01:02:01,618 --> 01:02:05,918
play around i'll share with you and obviously even the group chat if anybody else is interested to

1127
01:02:05,918 --> 01:02:07,818
play around, DM me and

1128
01:02:07,818 --> 01:02:08,518
Sounds like Austin.

1129
01:02:08,818 --> 01:02:09,418
Connected, yeah.

1130
01:02:10,098 --> 01:02:10,718
Oh yeah, good.

1131
01:02:10,818 --> 01:02:12,018
Austin knows subservient chicken.

1132
01:02:12,358 --> 01:02:12,638
Shout out.

1133
01:02:12,718 --> 01:02:13,618
Yeah, Burger King promo.

1134
01:02:13,778 --> 01:02:14,038
That's right.

1135
01:02:14,878 --> 01:02:16,698
That's like internet history there.

1136
01:02:18,118 --> 01:02:18,958
Steve, how are you doing?

1137
01:02:20,098 --> 01:02:22,098
Steve's been on his chat the whole time.

1138
01:02:23,898 --> 01:02:25,478
Yeah, I'll leave in a few.

1139
01:02:26,038 --> 01:02:27,438
He's looking at subservient chicken.

1140
01:02:27,798 --> 01:02:29,658
Is there anything you want to make sure

1141
01:02:29,658 --> 01:02:31,098
we touch on before you

1142
01:02:31,098 --> 01:02:32,158
bon voyage?

1143
01:02:33,398 --> 01:02:33,658
No.

1144
01:02:34,658 --> 01:02:35,238
I'll just...

1145
01:02:35,918 --> 01:02:38,318
silently disappear in a few minutes.

1146
01:02:38,838 --> 01:02:39,398
Cool.

1147
01:02:40,358 --> 01:02:42,018
I know you guys shared,

1148
01:02:42,138 --> 01:02:45,798
and I took a brief look at the dystopian vision

1149
01:02:45,798 --> 01:02:50,098
of the future of AI-generated video.

1150
01:02:50,658 --> 01:02:51,478
Did I share this?

1151
01:02:51,478 --> 01:02:51,918
Vibes.

1152
01:02:52,378 --> 01:02:53,258
Who shared vibes?

1153
01:02:53,818 --> 01:02:54,538
I didn't share this.

1154
01:02:55,198 --> 01:02:55,798
Steve, was that you?

1155
01:02:56,758 --> 01:02:57,798
Nobody shared this?

1156
01:02:58,138 --> 01:02:59,118
Maybe it was another group chat.

1157
01:02:59,118 --> 01:03:00,258
Matt did.

1158
01:03:01,018 --> 01:03:01,578
Oh, okay.

1159
01:03:02,258 --> 01:03:02,658
Matt shared.

1160
01:03:02,658 --> 01:03:11,878
So there's, you know, Facebook has now launched a new app, I think, called Vibes, which is effectively like a TikTok thing, I think, that you're just watching.

1161
01:03:12,038 --> 01:03:12,818
Just what the world needs.

1162
01:03:12,878 --> 01:03:14,998
AI-generated video content.

1163
01:03:16,418 --> 01:03:16,778
Oh, man.

1164
01:03:16,778 --> 01:03:24,178
I looked at the launch video and like it, you know, all the visuals are like, you know, nice and appealing, whatever.

1165
01:03:24,278 --> 01:03:29,998
But like, I can't imagine why you would want to just hang out there and flip through these things.

1166
01:03:30,098 --> 01:03:35,218
Unless you're really just like nothing to do, slack jawed, sitting on the couch.

1167
01:03:35,838 --> 01:03:37,638
Why does TikTok exist? What's the difference?

1168
01:03:37,638 --> 01:03:41,598
I mean, I think in TikTok, you feel like you're maybe connecting with somebody.

1169
01:03:41,598 --> 01:03:47,918
you're gonna you know maybe do i don't know i feel like there's something around connecting that

1170
01:03:47,918 --> 01:03:52,158
maybe tick tock has at least an imagination maybe someday you'll connect and if this is just

1171
01:03:52,798 --> 01:03:58,718
there's so much ai video content i'm not sure why why to go one place versus another and especially

1172
01:03:58,718 --> 01:04:01,918
and it has like create and remix and stuff so it kind of has all the primitives you expect

1173
01:04:02,558 --> 01:04:08,478
um but uh but yeah just when i saw it kind of just looks dystopian to me yeah no i mean like

1174
01:04:08,478 --> 01:04:10,658
almost everything Facebook has shipped is pretty dystopian.

1175
01:04:11,138 --> 01:04:13,638
I mean, yeah, I think, I don't know, man.

1176
01:04:13,698 --> 01:04:14,698
I think the next couple of years,

1177
01:04:15,398 --> 01:04:17,958
you know, the stuff you're talking about with Nostre

1178
01:04:17,958 --> 01:04:19,178
and like user identity,

1179
01:04:19,318 --> 01:04:22,638
that makes me very hopeful

1180
01:04:22,638 --> 01:04:24,478
for the future of technology and humanity.

1181
01:04:24,598 --> 01:04:26,798
But I think the next couple of years could get very bad.

1182
01:04:26,878 --> 01:04:28,198
And honestly, I don't know,

1183
01:04:28,278 --> 01:04:29,898
like I'm trying to figure this out in my own life,

1184
01:04:30,418 --> 01:04:32,558
part of the reason I don't answer messages in the morning,

1185
01:04:32,958 --> 01:04:34,718
is like, I think it's super important

1186
01:04:34,718 --> 01:04:36,598
that people figure out like how to unplug.

1187
01:04:36,598 --> 01:04:38,498
because I think the next couple of years,

1188
01:04:38,558 --> 01:04:39,478
I think like even more,

1189
01:04:39,558 --> 01:04:41,318
like people talk about sovereignty and freedom.

1190
01:04:41,318 --> 01:04:42,478
That's more important than Bitcoin.

1191
01:04:43,118 --> 01:04:44,958
And I don't know, man,

1192
01:04:44,998 --> 01:04:46,138
like this next couple of years

1193
01:04:46,138 --> 01:04:47,318
during the AI transition,

1194
01:04:47,318 --> 01:04:48,298
I think we're going to figure it out.

1195
01:04:48,338 --> 01:04:48,858
In the long run,

1196
01:04:48,918 --> 01:04:49,798
you'll own your own identity.

1197
01:04:49,798 --> 01:04:50,918
You'll have your own reputation.

1198
01:04:51,218 --> 01:04:52,438
And a lot of these tools

1199
01:04:52,438 --> 01:04:53,758
that we're working on are going to help.

1200
01:04:54,378 --> 01:04:55,198
But yeah, man,

1201
01:04:55,238 --> 01:04:56,438
a lot of people are just going to get,

1202
01:04:56,518 --> 01:04:58,838
you know, the Zuck thing

1203
01:04:58,838 --> 01:05:00,478
where everyone's like strapped in with VR

1204
01:05:00,478 --> 01:05:02,278
and like it's literally like drooling.

1205
01:05:02,438 --> 01:05:03,618
Like, I don't know.

1206
01:05:03,678 --> 01:05:04,478
It's not that far off.

1207
01:05:04,638 --> 01:05:05,758
But what are the practices

1208
01:05:05,758 --> 01:05:06,838
that you're incorporating.

1209
01:05:07,078 --> 01:05:08,758
Like you do some meditation stuff.

1210
01:05:08,998 --> 01:05:10,818
You stay off Twitter as much as possible.

1211
01:05:10,818 --> 01:05:12,298
You just have it removed from your phone?

1212
01:05:12,518 --> 01:05:14,138
I removed all the apps from my phone.

1213
01:05:14,258 --> 01:05:15,318
I do black and white scale.

1214
01:05:15,518 --> 01:05:17,918
I'm even trying to now just leave my phone behind more

1215
01:05:17,918 --> 01:05:20,518
and like only really do things on the computer.

1216
01:05:20,638 --> 01:05:21,538
I don't have a signal on my phone.

1217
01:05:23,678 --> 01:05:24,258
I don't know.

1218
01:05:24,398 --> 01:05:25,318
This is a work in progress

1219
01:05:25,318 --> 01:05:27,338
and it's still not something I totally figured out.

1220
01:05:27,418 --> 01:05:27,818
I don't know.

1221
01:05:27,918 --> 01:05:28,758
I mean, because the thing is like,

1222
01:05:28,978 --> 01:05:30,538
you know, it's like I think about the Kevin Kelly example.

1223
01:05:30,538 --> 01:05:33,138
It's like, you know, I really respect the Amish

1224
01:05:33,138 --> 01:05:34,998
in that they test technologies first

1225
01:05:34,998 --> 01:05:36,298
and then they decide what's good for them.

1226
01:05:36,398 --> 01:05:39,138
But I'm not anti-tech, I love tech.

1227
01:05:39,398 --> 01:05:43,738
But, you know, until we get to that decentralized thing,

1228
01:05:43,798 --> 01:05:45,078
I know that like the brainwashing

1229
01:05:45,078 --> 01:05:46,078
is only going to increase.

1230
01:05:46,298 --> 01:05:48,378
So I don't know, I mean, I'd love to hear from you guys,

1231
01:05:48,418 --> 01:05:51,498
from folks in the chat, like what is the right balance?

1232
01:05:51,578 --> 01:05:52,678
I don't know, but I feel like

1233
01:05:52,678 --> 01:05:55,278
if you don't have focus and attention

1234
01:05:55,278 --> 01:05:55,978
in the next couple of years,

1235
01:05:56,078 --> 01:05:57,878
like it's going to be a, I don't know,

1236
01:05:58,058 --> 01:05:59,998
it's going to be a dark, dark dystopian thing.

1237
01:06:01,718 --> 01:06:03,818
I know that's like, it's a very positive note,

1238
01:06:03,818 --> 01:06:22,258
I think I do a good job when I'm in person with people, like yesterday's event or dinner, or if I'm having dinner with a friend or I'm mountain biking with a friend, I am very good about not being on my phone. Otherwise, I am on my phone, like pretty much, or computer the whole time.

1239
01:06:22,258 --> 01:06:31,378
so um i did disable twitter notifications many years ago on my phone and that helped a lot

1240
01:06:31,378 --> 01:06:39,138
so at least i was the one deciding i was deciding to enter that versus being drawn in

1241
01:06:39,138 --> 01:06:45,798
i i would suggest that for everyone there's really notifications in general yeah yeah i also did that

1242
01:06:45,798 --> 01:06:50,318
house cleaning like four or five years ago where i went i disabled like every notification

1243
01:06:50,318 --> 01:06:52,618
from every app on my phone.

1244
01:06:52,858 --> 01:06:54,638
And then only when I felt pain

1245
01:06:54,638 --> 01:06:56,578
by not having it,

1246
01:06:56,598 --> 01:06:57,758
then I would re-enable it.

1247
01:06:58,058 --> 01:06:58,738
Yeah, that's a good idea.

1248
01:06:59,198 --> 01:06:59,398
Yeah.

1249
01:06:59,738 --> 01:07:01,298
Start from scratch and add it as you need.

1250
01:07:02,018 --> 01:07:04,018
I also think like where you give your attention,

1251
01:07:04,218 --> 01:07:06,158
like if you give your attention to an algorithm,

1252
01:07:06,158 --> 01:07:08,258
that's pretty different than like,

1253
01:07:08,618 --> 01:07:11,178
I give my attention to you and Steve

1254
01:07:11,178 --> 01:07:12,118
through our group chat.

1255
01:07:12,238 --> 01:07:14,418
And then I click on links that you guys send me.

1256
01:07:14,518 --> 01:07:15,498
I don't know where you guys got them from.

1257
01:07:15,718 --> 01:07:15,818
Yeah.

1258
01:07:15,938 --> 01:07:17,518
But I don't give my attention to the algorithm.

1259
01:07:17,638 --> 01:07:18,878
I give my attention to people.

1260
01:07:19,178 --> 01:07:19,338
Totally.

1261
01:07:19,338 --> 01:07:23,378
which again, that's one of the beauties of something like Noster is like, you know, today

1262
01:07:23,378 --> 01:07:27,198
it's challenging though, right? Because like, I think about this, actually, this is a great example.

1263
01:07:27,358 --> 01:07:31,258
We all share links in the chat and like, I do want to read the links you guys share and I generally

1264
01:07:31,258 --> 01:07:35,238
do, but sometimes I'm like, man, I don't want to log into Twitter and as they, or Reddit or like

1265
01:07:35,238 --> 01:07:38,838
whatever, if they start, um, you know, uh, paywalling it or that.

1266
01:07:38,838 --> 01:07:42,798
That is, so DK's point is really, really good. But so, so is that when I,

1267
01:07:42,958 --> 01:07:47,318
I also love the filter that I get from my friends, but you click through

1268
01:07:47,318 --> 01:07:50,658
and then all of a sudden you're exposed to the drama

1269
01:07:50,658 --> 01:07:53,438
and it just naturally sucks you in.

1270
01:07:53,658 --> 01:07:56,038
So I need to figure out a better filter for that.

1271
01:07:56,238 --> 01:07:57,778
By the way, that's Nostra, right?

1272
01:07:57,818 --> 01:08:00,098
In the future, you could have a custom app that says,

1273
01:08:00,238 --> 01:08:03,298
I just want to see an app, this post, nothing else.

1274
01:08:03,538 --> 01:08:05,218
Maybe we could make some sort of a workflow,

1275
01:08:05,478 --> 01:08:06,858
like, I don't know, AppleScript or something,

1276
01:08:06,998 --> 01:08:09,118
where we could share from,

1277
01:08:09,518 --> 01:08:10,998
like if I share a link from Twitter,

1278
01:08:11,118 --> 01:08:12,398
it gets posted as a Nostra note

1279
01:08:12,398 --> 01:08:13,938
and it shares the Nostra note to you.

1280
01:08:14,038 --> 01:08:14,898
That's a great idea.

1281
01:08:15,318 --> 01:08:17,218
If someone's listening, the world needs that.

1282
01:08:17,318 --> 01:08:18,458
okay guys

1283
01:08:18,458 --> 01:08:19,918
I am gonna run

1284
01:08:19,918 --> 01:08:20,798
I've got a big

1285
01:08:20,798 --> 01:08:21,878
international flight

1286
01:08:21,878 --> 01:08:22,518
okay

1287
01:08:22,518 --> 01:08:23,578
sorry to bail early

1288
01:08:23,578 --> 01:08:23,918
good luck

1289
01:08:23,918 --> 01:08:24,178
no

1290
01:08:24,178 --> 01:08:24,778
all good

1291
01:08:24,778 --> 01:08:25,658
and

1292
01:08:25,658 --> 01:08:26,898
you got eight minutes

1293
01:08:26,898 --> 01:08:27,558
of a real show

1294
01:08:27,558 --> 01:08:28,978
probably miss next week too

1295
01:08:28,978 --> 01:08:29,618
so

1296
01:08:29,618 --> 01:08:31,578
till the next time

1297
01:08:31,578 --> 01:08:32,438
till the next time

1298
01:08:32,438 --> 01:08:33,058
we'll go see you guys

1299
01:08:33,058 --> 01:08:33,498
have fun

1300
01:08:33,498 --> 01:08:34,238
bye bye

1301
01:08:34,238 --> 01:08:36,938
so yeah

1302
01:08:36,938 --> 01:08:37,378
I don't know

1303
01:08:37,378 --> 01:08:37,738
I mean

1304
01:08:37,738 --> 01:08:38,798
I've actually got

1305
01:08:38,798 --> 01:08:39,878
a thing coming up

1306
01:08:39,878 --> 01:08:40,918
in a few minutes here

1307
01:08:40,918 --> 01:08:42,538
guys coming in to host

1308
01:08:42,538 --> 01:08:42,958
so I don't know

1309
01:08:42,958 --> 01:08:43,518
if you got any

1310
01:08:43,518 --> 01:08:44,838
last minute topics

1311
01:08:44,838 --> 01:08:45,598
that we should

1312
01:08:45,598 --> 01:08:46,478
no I mean

1313
01:08:46,478 --> 01:08:46,898
I just think

1314
01:08:46,898 --> 01:08:47,278
we should address

1315
01:08:47,278 --> 01:08:52,318
I think, again, I would love to see more of the community from Bitcoin and Nostra think about things like that.

1316
01:08:52,558 --> 01:08:59,358
Yes, I love that idea of, can you, because there's still better content on Twitter in general, can you port that out and post it?

1317
01:08:59,918 --> 01:09:06,238
I think, you know, we talk a lot about freedom technology, and I get it, and that's great.

1318
01:09:06,378 --> 01:09:11,138
But I think it's become kind of like a bit of a trite meme at this point where it's like, oh, the state's coming for me.

1319
01:09:11,138 --> 01:09:16,058
I'm like, maybe, but I think the real attack is less 1984 and more brave new world.

1320
01:09:16,478 --> 01:09:17,018
Yeah, yeah.

1321
01:09:17,018 --> 01:09:31,198
And so I think the more freedom of your mind technology is possible, the more you say, no, I'm not going to get, even if I want to click on this link, or like building products that allow people to live calm lives is, I think, the number one most important thing, even more important than Bitcoin.

1322
01:09:31,698 --> 01:09:31,898
Yep.

1323
01:09:32,578 --> 01:09:32,978
Love it.

1324
01:09:33,218 --> 01:09:35,158
Bitcoin show and even more important than Bitcoin.

1325
01:09:35,358 --> 01:09:36,118
Which is, yeah.

1326
01:09:36,398 --> 01:09:39,178
It's a high bar, but I tend to kind of agree.

1327
01:09:39,178 --> 01:09:43,518
Oh, someone, Matthew Cote says, oh, I met Matt last week.

1328
01:09:43,698 --> 01:09:44,878
Use Knitter Links.

1329
01:09:45,478 --> 01:09:46,778
No algo on that app.

1330
01:09:46,778 --> 01:09:47,378
I don't even know what Knitter.

1331
01:09:47,478 --> 01:09:48,138
I see Knitter.

1332
01:09:48,338 --> 01:09:49,418
I think people share stuff.

1333
01:09:49,418 --> 01:09:49,978
What is Knitter?

1334
01:09:50,178 --> 01:09:52,538
I thought it was some sort of aggregation point or something.

1335
01:09:52,598 --> 01:09:54,998
Or maybe it's a way that you can point to a bunch of different things.

1336
01:09:55,338 --> 01:09:55,978
But I don't know.

1337
01:09:56,138 --> 01:09:56,738
We'll take out.

1338
01:09:56,818 --> 01:09:57,598
Thanks for the shout out.

1339
01:09:57,638 --> 01:09:58,298
Yeah, thanks for that.

1340
01:09:58,398 --> 01:09:59,958
We'll take a look at Knitter.

1341
01:10:00,418 --> 01:10:00,658
Yeah.

1342
01:10:01,138 --> 01:10:01,338
Knitter.

1343
01:10:01,558 --> 01:10:02,158
Interesting name.

1344
01:10:02,458 --> 01:10:02,798
All right.

1345
01:10:03,458 --> 01:10:03,918
All right.

1346
01:10:04,038 --> 01:10:05,098
Until next week.

1347
01:10:05,218 --> 01:10:05,798
Until next week.