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Check, check, check.

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All right.

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Welcome to the Presidio Bitcoin Jam.

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We're back, baby.

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Yet another week.

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It's Friday.

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It's noon.

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A few minutes after.

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We're back in a normal spot.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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I like the Friday, the sticking to it Friday.

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When we do the kind of like one-off things, they're always a little topical and not really

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like just us hanging out talking about what we want to talk about.

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So yeah.

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Well, I like the live audience.

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That's great, too.

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They're fun.

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It's great, too.

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It's not this, though.

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And also, by missing last week's normal PBJ,

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now we have...

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A lot of stuff happens every week in Bitcoin.

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This was like the biggest week.

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Now we have two weeks.

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This was a super slow week.

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I can't even remember what happened last week.

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Now, two weeks to talk about.

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But this week was a big week.

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So what happened this week?

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Some are calling it one of the biggest,

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if not the biggest week in Bitcoin.

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Yeah, I would go sign that.

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I like it.

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So what happened this week?

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Well, let's see.

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We actually talked twice in the show, I think,

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about Square launching Bitcoin acceptance.

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Now that's actually gone GA.

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It's available broadly to square sellers.

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So that went live on Monday.

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That means if I'm a square seller and I have the POS,

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I can do some configuration stuff and then I can accept Bitcoin.

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Yep.

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Every POS can do that now.

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What kind of configuration?

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Is it complicated?

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I have learned a lot.

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I've also learned a lot this week.

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It can be simple.

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It can be a few taps.

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there's many many a large percentage of square sellers it's a few taps i've also learned there

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can be gotchas um there's still a few like uh or like you have to upgrade your software right

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there's still a few versions that aren't supported yet but i think you know that's going to be rolling

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out um and then for if you're a certain type of business and haven't done some like kyb before

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then you have to do that.

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So there can be some friction for some sellers.

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But I've also learned though,

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and we'll get to what Spiral did this week

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and some of the stuff we've done.

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But through our efforts,

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we're trying to help not just Square,

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but any POS solution.

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We want to help Bitcoin payments for it.

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Because there's still,

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the lion's share of small businesses

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and merchants in the world don't use Square.

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In the US, Toast or Clover or other solutions.

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and then outside the U.S., Square is not supported yet.

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What is a rough market share, just to kind of gauge it?

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Do you think Square is somewhere like 10%, 20%?

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Of global?

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No, of U.S.?

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Yes.

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I have no idea.

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Toast has grown a lot the past, whatever, five plus years.

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And I think it's a pretty strong competitor to Square.

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I don't know the relative size of the two.

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I still think Square is much bigger,

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but the growth rate of Toast has been higher.

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and we're trying to turn that around and i think clover's a smaller player just put that in context

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you know when i think of like the two payment companies i sort of track square and stripe are

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the two major ones stripe is obviously more focused online but square does online too is that

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true or is it square 100 i'm a brick and mortar there's some online but i mean it's it's not

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competitive i think with but both of these companies you know i'm sure everyone's familiar

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but like you know to the tune of like tens of billions of dollars by like 50 to 100 billion

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in valuation. So these are like major companies

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and the fact that Square is doing this is like, it's a

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really big deal. Well, I mean, a number we do know

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is like 4 million Square markets.

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So that's an absolute number. I don't know

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what the market, I mean, what's the definition

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of small business and

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et cetera.

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So I don't know what the

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I don't know what the market share is. It's a big deal.

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It's a big deal.

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So let's see,

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what are some insights?

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I forget the insight I was going to give, but

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Another insight is that I do think in-person payments, like honestly, two months ago, I was kind of, and I think I even said it on the show, kind of skeptical of like Americans buying a coffee with Bitcoin.

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The classic crypto.

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And we can explain, you know, why I skeptical.

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And probably a lot of people are skeptical about that.

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And then like why my mind's changed a bit.

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But one piece of it is that in-person payments, you have that, it's way more of a human connection.

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Like with a local merchant.

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Like you typically, each person generally has like a few merchants that are their favorites, their regulars.

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That business knows who you are, knows your name, values you because they know you're a recurring customer.

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And you care about that business hanging around.

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Like for DK, I mean, like local bike shops are a thing, right?

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And so even though often I could buy a gear bike part even 50% cheaper or whatever online, I'd almost prefer to buy it locally just to keep the bike shop in business because they repair my bike.

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And when you have a problem, they're available to have a problem.

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We had a problem.

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I had a problem on our ride the other day and like right after the thing dropped it off, you know, 10 minutes later and it was fixed in like an hour.

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You can't get that if you go for the cheapest online thing.

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And I think that's generally true. Everyone has their favorite merchants and it varies.

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My tea, my tea. I could order online cheaper from Japan.

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Customers care about the businesses. Businesses care about the customers. It's just way more intimate than online transactions.

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And so I think, number one, there's actual conversations in person.

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and I think Bitcoin can be a really interesting conversation

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and we'll get into

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I think it's a different type of conversation

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than Bitcoiners are used to

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because Bitcoiners are used to like

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down to the state, separation of money

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censorship resistance

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freedom, etc

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I don't think that's the typical conversation here

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here it's about

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you can save fees

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and that's what opens their eyes

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and they perk up when they can save fees

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and then they ask how

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and then it's like just a couple taps and you can, you know,

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but then it's like, well, okay, who's going to know they can come in

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and make Bitcoin payments and help you save fees?

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And why would they, like Bitcoiners will do that,

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but what about the rest of the people?

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What's going to motivate them?

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And we've talked about, you know, on previous episodes,

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like Pink Owl is going to give a 21% discount,

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which is super extreme, but, you know,

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giving incentives and discounts is one.

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We've seen some merchants show the plushie.

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They literally, you know, put it right by the cash register

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Really? I didn't know that.

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Oh, you didn't?

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No, that's cool.

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Pink Owl does that.

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And both, so Bob, who works out of Presidio Bitcoin, he...

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Bitcoin Bob, you mean?

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Bitcoin Bob.

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I've renamed him with the B as the Bitcoin symbol.

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Bob's great.

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And he went to seven merchants in Larkspur in Marin, where he lives.

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And all seven, or none of the seven knew anything about Bitcoin.

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So they were not like pink owl folks are like hardcore Bitcoiners.

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These seven merchants didn't know anything about Bitcoin.

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He's already converted two of them to accept Bitcoin and they now show up on the map.

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And both of them are displaying put the plushie by the register.

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Really?

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It creates awareness.

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Wow.

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And it's a lighthearted way to strike up conversation too.

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Again, it's not hardcore.

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It's kind of silly, kind of goofy.

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But like it's way more human than a lot of Bitcoin content.

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What did he say down with the state?

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What his face says is that he's grumpy about 3% fees, right?

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Which is in the one-pager that leave behind the victory.

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Before we get into the fees, which is, that's the money shot to me.

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But if the plushie is so successful, and I know we're still owed a performance from DK in this plushie suit,

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does that mean perhaps Pink Out Coffee needs someone to come and perhaps dance around a billboard?

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He's actually signing their own.

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One Saturday, I'm just saying,

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there is a suit available.

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There is a man who's supposed to wear the suit.

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All right, all right.

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Dress me up.

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We might have to do that.

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I need makeup and wardrobe.

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But, you know,

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why could Bitcoin payments actually take off this time?

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I think multiple reasons.

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One, again, like,

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comparing Square versus Stripe,

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Stripe is way, it's impersonal.

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Like, it's amazing.

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Like, I'm online, I'm on some e-commerce site,

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I need to make a purchase,

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I click a button.

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It's super simple.

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But there's no human connection.

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There is no conversation to be had.

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Would I care about using Bitcoin there?

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Maybe.

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If privacy matters for that purchase,

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then I would care.

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If I'm giving some kind of money back

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or incentive beyond what I'm already getting

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with credit cards,

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then that could be useful.

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Or if you're in India or a country,

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you can't use Stripe.

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That's the other big example.

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So definitely there's still reasons to do it for e-commerce, but I guess I'm just more bullish on the in-person stuff for the reasons we just mentioned.

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So that's one reason.

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I think leading with save fees is definitely, that's been my experience talking to merchants and everyone else's experience.

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And most of these local merchants, you might hear 3% and think that sounds small, right?

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But most of these local merchants are probably operating on something 9% or 10% margin.

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So it's double digit, it would be a double digit percentage increase in their profit margin.

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That's a huge win.

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You have money to take home.

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Right.

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I mean, if you have a 6% profit margin, then it's half of your profit margin.

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I think we should pause here because we have not made this explicit.

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I think this is a big point worth stopping and focusing on.

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So to be clear, this is my understanding, any merchant that opts into Bitcoin payments today is paying exactly 0% fees right now.

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Historically, they're paying whatever it is, 2.9% with Visa plus some like a quarter or whatever the full charges.

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Visa, MasterCard, each other and things.

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but to go from paying 3% to 0%,

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and to be clear,

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the fact that Square,

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and I understand they're doing this

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through all of 2026 as a promo

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and then charging 1%,

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so eventually they will have to pay something,

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but it's still much lower.

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Like, that's crazy to me.

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That is such a huge deal,

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and it's also just like a shout out to you guys

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for actually, I mean,

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I'm shocked, like everyone was on board with this,

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but it's wild,

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and like, it's almost,

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I was saying this to Bob last night,

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the only issue I see with it

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is it almost sounds too good to be true.

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Like, if you go to a merchant and you say,

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hey guys, would you like to,

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just not pay any fees at all?

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Who would say no?

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Well, okay, multiple things.

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One, we're already seeing evidence

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that they're saying yes.

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Just in Bob's anecdote,

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he went to seven merchants.

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None of them knew anything about Bitcoin.

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Already two of them are accepting Bitcoin.

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So people who are passionate about Bitcoin

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and want to see this happen,

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get out there and do this.

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We'll get to Spiral's created

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a marketing kit for you as well.

256
00:10:41,820 --> 00:10:43,200
We'll talk about that in a little bit.

257
00:10:44,180 --> 00:10:48,700
So yeah, I think there's reason to believe that they will do it.

258
00:10:48,780 --> 00:10:51,240
Now, what are still some of the challenges though, right?

259
00:10:51,540 --> 00:10:56,520
Even if they turn it on, well, you know, how many of their customers are going to pay in Bitcoin?

260
00:10:56,780 --> 00:10:56,860
Sure.

261
00:10:56,940 --> 00:10:59,020
So one, they have to create awareness.

262
00:10:59,400 --> 00:10:59,540
Right.

263
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:07,960
Well, one of the awesome things that was also announced this week is that Square and Cash App integrated BTC Map.

264
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:30,000
So for people not familiar with BGC Map, it's been an open source project for at least three years with the goal of collecting merchant data that accepts Bitcoin and then storing it in OpenStreetMap along with their license, which is a permissive license.

265
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:31,800
like anyone can use it.

266
00:11:32,940 --> 00:11:33,980
Anyone can use it,

267
00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,760
but it's similar to AGPL

268
00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,180
in that if you do incorporate it,

269
00:11:39,460 --> 00:11:41,680
you have to make your data available.

270
00:11:41,980 --> 00:11:43,680
So that's a side issue.

271
00:11:43,700 --> 00:11:46,000
Both the software and the data of BTCMap are...

272
00:11:46,540 --> 00:11:47,620
The software is AGPL,

273
00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:49,660
and I forget the name of the...

274
00:11:49,660 --> 00:11:52,400
It's whatever the open business data license is

275
00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,420
or something like that from OpenStreetMap.

276
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:56,800
But the data is stored in OpenStreetMap

277
00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:58,540
and with that license.

278
00:11:58,540 --> 00:12:01,040
an interesting topic to discuss.

279
00:12:01,220 --> 00:12:02,740
Probably not, we won't have time today, but

280
00:12:02,740 --> 00:12:05,100
I don't see how Google Maps and Apple Maps

281
00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:07,100
can use it. So do they have to recreate all this data

282
00:12:07,100 --> 00:12:09,100
from scratch? Because of the AGPL?

283
00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:10,940
Well, the

284
00:12:10,940 --> 00:12:12,300
data license.

285
00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,940
The data license equivalent

286
00:12:14,940 --> 00:12:17,020
of AGPL. But let's talk about that

287
00:12:17,020 --> 00:12:17,500
another time.

288
00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,800
How do you get on the BTC map? Is that when you flip

289
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,800
on the POS, on the Square POS?

290
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:23,500
You have to opt in.

291
00:12:24,340 --> 00:12:24,920
You have to opt in.

292
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:26,900
We did it here.

293
00:12:26,900 --> 00:12:31,920
So Presidio Bitcoin has, you know, Square went to sale and we had to opt in.

294
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:37,960
It's important to, you know, so then, so a lot of Bitcoiners are like, why not enable all this by default?

295
00:12:38,060 --> 00:12:39,860
Why not opt in to the map by default?

296
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,460
Well, a lot of business owners, it's like their home address.

297
00:12:42,980 --> 00:12:53,240
So doing that opt in without their permission, like, you know, as I joked, as I joked with folks, like, who doesn't want a bunch of rabid Bitcoiners showing up at your home?

298
00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:55,860
The book of Satoshi, ready to go.

299
00:12:56,900 --> 00:13:02,580
Um, so, uh, but I, you know, I, I think we're seeing evidence, uh, it's public information,

300
00:13:02,580 --> 00:13:08,100
like the absolute number of, um, merchants coming onto BC map.

301
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,720
And it's been quite, I mean, so it's over, it's over a thousand, uh, as of like Wednesday

302
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:13,080
or something.

303
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:14,720
So I'm sure it's like a couple thousand hours.

304
00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:20,100
So, and I think it's a reasonably high percentage of merchants are opting into that.

305
00:13:20,380 --> 00:13:23,240
Well, I was going to say, I mean, it's worth noting again, like, I think the point I would

306
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,060
drive home is like, and I know we're going to get to the, the, the payments and how Bitcoin can be

307
00:13:27,060 --> 00:13:30,920
done even in the background. But like, again, imagine you're a merchant. If someone comes to

308
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,680
you and says, I'm going to save you all fees. Oh, and by the way, I'm going to put you in a map,

309
00:13:34,740 --> 00:13:38,820
which is going to bring some crazy customers that are probably like pretty well off to spend a bunch

310
00:13:38,820 --> 00:13:43,080
of money with you. Like I just, it, again, the only challenges, like, I think that the more I

311
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,280
watch all this unfold, the more I'm just like, of course this is going to work. Like, and I'm shocked.

312
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,440
I was just skeptical. I mean, I agree. I, another reason, because like we've been here before,

313
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,780
2013-2014 hype wave

314
00:13:53,780 --> 00:13:55,580
it was like the first Silicon Valley hype wave

315
00:13:55,580 --> 00:13:57,560
and it was a ton of payments

316
00:13:57,560 --> 00:13:59,540
Square turned on Bitcoin payments back then

317
00:13:59,540 --> 00:14:01,120
and I think they had like

318
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,980
one transaction a day

319
00:14:03,980 --> 00:14:05,160
or a month

320
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:06,940
and it was like abysmal

321
00:14:06,940 --> 00:14:09,120
but think about Bitcoin today versus

322
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:10,320
10 plus years ago

323
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,480
everything's changed

324
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,460
the number of people who own Bitcoin

325
00:14:15,460 --> 00:14:16,740
the number of people who are aware of Bitcoin

326
00:14:16,740 --> 00:14:18,180
the number of people who

327
00:14:18,180 --> 00:14:20,140
the technology

328
00:14:20,140 --> 00:14:41,340
Look at the application. There's dozens of apps I can install on my phone, which have anywhere from a decent to good and some even pretty great user experience for making payments. If I use Phoenix or Cash App, Primal, all of those make the payment in one second or less. It is truly lightning fast.

329
00:14:41,340 --> 00:14:44,560
So, um, and by the way, I think, I think that's worth stopping on.

330
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:45,580
Cause I thought about this.

331
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:50,500
We had not to side rail us too much, but a sort of, uh, Bitcoin startup night, Silicon

332
00:14:50,500 --> 00:14:51,440
Valley night here last night.

333
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,100
And DKA kind of was trying to get out of us the question of like, what changed?

334
00:14:55,180 --> 00:14:58,320
Why did Silicon Valley get it so wrong to their credit?

335
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,800
And not just where, if I recall Stripe in that era also enabled Bitcoin payments.

336
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:03,020
Right.

337
00:15:03,060 --> 00:15:07,380
And so I think, you know, a lot of people in Silicon Valley before they went full shit

338
00:15:07,380 --> 00:15:11,320
coin, you know, they're used to seeing businesses and businesses grow pretty fast.

339
00:15:11,340 --> 00:15:13,500
either get an option or you don't, and then either works or it doesn't.

340
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,240
You're not used to looking at protocols like the internet, like Bitcoin.

341
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,960
And so a lot of people in that first era, you had companies like Stripe and Square,

342
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,920
you had BitPay, all these companies that said, oh, Bitcoin's going to be the next big thing.

343
00:15:22,980 --> 00:15:23,900
This is value for the internet.

344
00:15:24,740 --> 00:15:25,940
What's good people are going to use value for?

345
00:15:26,060 --> 00:15:26,420
Payments.

346
00:15:26,580 --> 00:15:27,420
And then they integrated it.

347
00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,500
But then, you know, before Lightning Network, which allows for, you know,

348
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,000
peer-to-peer instant final settlement, instant being the key word there,

349
00:15:34,420 --> 00:15:37,820
you know, if you're sitting there and you're waiting 10, 20, 30 minutes for confirmations

350
00:15:37,820 --> 00:15:40,320
and no one has Bitcoin and all these other things,

351
00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:41,360
of course it's not going to work.

352
00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:44,420
So just to kind of loop back to our conversation last night,

353
00:15:44,460 --> 00:15:48,300
I think it's worth noting Silicon Valley did get Bitcoin early on.

354
00:15:48,620 --> 00:15:49,520
The tech wasn't ready.

355
00:15:49,860 --> 00:15:51,000
They weren't used to protocols.

356
00:15:51,380 --> 00:15:52,820
Now the protocol is finally ready.

357
00:15:52,820 --> 00:15:54,800
And at least one company stuck around.

358
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:55,380
Yep.

359
00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:01,040
So, yeah, I think comparing it 10 years ago,

360
00:16:01,260 --> 00:16:02,840
things are dramatically different.

361
00:16:02,940 --> 00:16:03,900
That's another big change.

362
00:16:03,940 --> 00:16:06,260
And the general awareness from TradFi,

363
00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:10,200
You know, love it or hate it, but it's a force for awareness in the world.

364
00:16:10,540 --> 00:16:14,580
And national politics, love it or hate it, but it's a force for awareness in the world.

365
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:16,840
So, but there's still barriers.

366
00:16:16,980 --> 00:16:17,740
So let's talk about some of that.

367
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,420
Because you're saying like it's a no-brainer for a merchant to enable it.

368
00:16:20,580 --> 00:16:25,520
I mean, I agree with that because it's like it's simple, or at least for square merchants, it's simple to turn up.

369
00:16:25,740 --> 00:16:26,840
Oh, I know what I was going to say earlier.

370
00:16:27,020 --> 00:16:28,340
Let me add that really quick.

371
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:36,160
This has forced me to better understand the other existing Bitcoin point of sale solution.

372
00:16:36,260 --> 00:16:39,420
because with this file project,

373
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,840
we created a website for merchants

374
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,140
and we didn't want it to be Square exclusive

375
00:16:45,140 --> 00:16:46,600
because even though we work for Block,

376
00:16:46,780 --> 00:16:49,560
our mission is all of Bitcoin.

377
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:51,460
And so number one,

378
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,780
we want to be neutral and fair and credible.

379
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,480
And number two, like I said earlier,

380
00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,180
there's a ton of merchants around the world

381
00:16:58,180 --> 00:17:01,160
who can't use Square or don't use Square.

382
00:17:01,420 --> 00:17:02,080
So what do they do?

383
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:11,560
So on our website, we promote other point-of-sale solutions too, but it's very different than Square.

384
00:17:12,100 --> 00:17:13,980
Well, obviously. I mean, these are like startups.

385
00:17:13,980 --> 00:17:21,320
Well, not just that, but just like Square is sort of your back-end system too, just as Toast and Clover are.

386
00:17:22,020 --> 00:17:31,960
So if you're using Toast and you want to accept Bitcoin payments, yes, you can use Wallet-Totoshi or Mana or IdexPay or BTCPay, these various solutions.

387
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:36,060
but it doesn't integrate with your backend system.

388
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,600
So then you have two separate records of transactions

389
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,380
and then it likely complicates your accounting

390
00:17:42,380 --> 00:17:43,620
and taxes and everything.

391
00:17:43,620 --> 00:17:46,940
So it's just a way bigger barrier.

392
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,040
So I fear that for those merchants,

393
00:17:51,260 --> 00:17:55,760
it's still, you got to be a hardcore Bitcoiner to do that.

394
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,600
I mean, to use a non-square POS to accept Bitcoin.

395
00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:00,060
But if you use a non-square,

396
00:18:00,060 --> 00:18:07,720
Well, if you don't use Square and you need to use a non-Square Bitcoin POS, it's way more friction.

397
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:09,480
So you have to be a hardcore Bitcoiner.

398
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,960
But with Square, you don't have to be a hardcore Bitcoiner.

399
00:18:13,020 --> 00:18:14,700
And we're already seeing evidence of that playoff.

400
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:16,620
I would say one potential exception on that.

401
00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:18,140
And I don't know how you want to address this.

402
00:18:18,220 --> 00:18:19,540
And by the way, excellent URL.

403
00:18:19,940 --> 00:18:22,720
Steve got bitcoin4merchants.org.

404
00:18:23,180 --> 00:18:23,460
Is that right?

405
00:18:23,980 --> 00:18:26,540
We have one and a half.

406
00:18:27,020 --> 00:18:27,760
What does that mean?

407
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,620
we purchased

408
00:18:29,620 --> 00:18:30,900
spiral purchase

409
00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:32,960
bitcoinmerchants.org

410
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,000
a premium domain

411
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,600
but we thought it was a good value

412
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,940
and then we learned that

413
00:18:38,940 --> 00:18:40,440
so

414
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,160
the broker we were working with

415
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:44,700
didn't own it, someone else owns it

416
00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:46,680
and we learned that it can take

417
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,040
weeks to actually get control

418
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:49,460
of the domain

419
00:18:49,460 --> 00:18:52,140
so we did not get it in time

420
00:18:52,140 --> 00:18:54,820
we didn't get it in time

421
00:18:54,820 --> 00:18:56,080
for the launch

422
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,600
so we also acquired

423
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,560
Bitcoinmerchantcommunity.org

424
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,700
which is a great name.

425
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:03,540
It's a mouthful.

426
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,960
It's a long domain name

427
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,380
but that's what's live today.

428
00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:10,060
But Bitcoinmerchants.org is coming.

429
00:19:11,660 --> 00:19:12,960
If we can work on it.

430
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,460
It's kind of like sending a wire

431
00:19:15,460 --> 00:19:16,240
versus Bitcoin.

432
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:17,520
Fair enough.

433
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:19,940
I don't know if we'll get that.

434
00:19:20,940 --> 00:19:22,200
Anyway, that's a whole other issue.

435
00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:23,980
I think there's almost three categories

436
00:19:23,980 --> 00:19:24,740
of merchants in my mind.

437
00:19:24,820 --> 00:19:25,840
I don't know how you want to handle this.

438
00:19:26,180 --> 00:19:27,440
Obviously, if you're square,

439
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,020
To me, it's like, I mean, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't do it.

440
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:31,480
Okay, great.

441
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:35,620
Then there's if you have another backend system and you like Bitcoin, but it's complicated,

442
00:19:36,260 --> 00:19:40,440
you know, as people get more aware, increasingly more people will be interested in do it for

443
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,740
things like Ibex and, you know, whatever, whoever's doing that.

444
00:19:42,820 --> 00:19:42,960
Great.

445
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,020
Then I think there's the third category of merchants, which is people that are just pure

446
00:19:47,020 --> 00:19:47,700
cash in it.

447
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,440
And then I think for them, maybe BTC pay server or something like that.

448
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,420
Like I could see a world where, and this is not small numbers, like just Mexico where

449
00:19:55,420 --> 00:19:57,960
I used to live 50% of the economy, pure cash.

450
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,980
And so I could see that other use case

451
00:20:00,980 --> 00:20:02,020
where if they get the tools,

452
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:03,560
like as awareness grows,

453
00:20:03,660 --> 00:20:04,240
like, okay, yeah,

454
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:05,980
I'll put in a little extra work up front

455
00:20:05,980 --> 00:20:07,640
if I can make Bitcoin work like cash.

456
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:08,580
Yep, great point.

457
00:20:08,820 --> 00:20:11,260
Blink is another example of a point in a sale solution.

458
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,100
So that third category, I agree,

459
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:14,900
it's huge, it's really important,

460
00:20:15,380 --> 00:20:16,520
and especially outside the US.

461
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,980
And I think that's where solutions

462
00:20:18,980 --> 00:20:23,620
like Blink and others could be great solutions for that.

463
00:20:23,620 --> 00:20:28,140
with respect to like Square merchants, I agree

464
00:20:28,140 --> 00:20:30,720
it truly is a no-brainer for them to turn it on.

465
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,640
It's very little time for them.

466
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:36,360
It's only beneficial to them.

467
00:20:36,940 --> 00:20:40,840
Do they have to commit to holding the Bitcoin or they can receive it as USD?

468
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,560
No, they can receive it as USD. That's why literally there's no drawback.

469
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,300
So they don't face any new tax situation.

470
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,540
If they don't know about or care about Bitcoin or don't even believe in Bitcoin

471
00:20:50,540 --> 00:20:53,240
they don't have to touch or hold Bitcoin at all.

472
00:20:53,620 --> 00:20:54,480
They just received SD.

473
00:20:54,700 --> 00:20:57,500
It just expands their payment options for their customers

474
00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:00,360
and also creates a marketing moment

475
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:02,120
for like new customers to come in.

476
00:21:02,460 --> 00:21:03,800
So I don't want to steal your thunder,

477
00:21:03,980 --> 00:21:06,180
but to me, all those announcements are great.

478
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,660
And by the way, I just have to say shout out to you.

479
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:09,820
Shout out to Jack.

480
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:10,680
Shout out to Miles.

481
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:11,740
Like the Square team,

482
00:21:11,820 --> 00:21:13,280
I don't know what the hell is going on over there,

483
00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:15,240
but all of a sudden it feels like Elon is running this thing.

484
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,320
There have been so many damn launches this week.

485
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:18,620
I've been shocked.

486
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:20,280
The one that got me though,

487
00:21:20,340 --> 00:21:21,420
it's like, okay, Bitcoin accepted.

488
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:22,000
That's cool.

489
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,720
uh btc map that's cool we're gonna talk about some other stuff from cash app you know no fee

490
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,540
stack and that's cool the thing that got me was you can now as a merchant i say hey you want to

491
00:21:30,540 --> 00:21:36,700
pay with bitcoin go into cash app okay and choose do i pay with my bitcoin balance or my dollar

492
00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:42,540
balance that to me was the single i was shocked shocked and you don't even need a bitcoin balance

493
00:21:42,540 --> 00:21:48,720
tell us about that uh i i will oh sorry but i want to hold on we're still on the i want to

494
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:49,140
We're getting there.

495
00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:49,920
It's very methodical.

496
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:50,200
It's friction.

497
00:21:50,380 --> 00:21:52,300
I want to like, let's talk about friction

498
00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:52,860
and then we'll get that.

499
00:21:52,980 --> 00:21:54,080
Because that's a big deal.

500
00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:54,620
That's where it comes.

501
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:55,520
But the friction.

502
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:56,060
So I agree.

503
00:21:56,140 --> 00:21:57,260
It's a no brainer for Square Merchant

504
00:21:57,260 --> 00:21:58,320
to turn on Bitcoin payments.

505
00:21:58,580 --> 00:22:00,420
But that still doesn't mean success.

506
00:22:00,580 --> 00:22:00,740
Yeah.

507
00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:02,400
Meaning we could still live in a world

508
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,800
where, yeah, for a few weeks,

509
00:22:04,820 --> 00:22:07,520
there's some Bitcoiners that go to these stores

510
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:08,380
and paying Bitcoin.

511
00:22:08,740 --> 00:22:09,160
Yeah, yeah.

512
00:22:09,380 --> 00:22:11,020
You know, and then like by January,

513
00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:12,240
no one's doing it anymore.

514
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,000
Kind of like 10 years ago.

515
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,400
Maybe like 10x the scale of the hype cycle,

516
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:18,320
but it disappears.

517
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,320
That absolutely could be the outcome.

518
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:21,800
I don't think it's going to be the outcome.

519
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,000
I'm optimistic, but that could be the outcome.

520
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,320
So what are the barriers?

521
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,060
Well, number one is customer awareness to even,

522
00:22:28,940 --> 00:22:29,660
I mean, so there's,

523
00:22:30,060 --> 00:22:31,760
let's split the customers in two segments.

524
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:32,800
One is Bitcoiners.

525
00:22:33,940 --> 00:22:35,460
Bitcoiners are aware of this, I think,

526
00:22:35,460 --> 00:22:38,400
especially with the amazing masterclass

527
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,140
of communications and marketing this week.

528
00:22:41,860 --> 00:22:45,120
But normal people, the rest of the people,

529
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:46,760
aren't aware of it.

530
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:47,880
So how do they become aware of it?

531
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:58,880
Number two, there is friction for a normal person, even a normal person who owns Bitcoin, because they typically own an ETF or have some in Coinbase or Cash App.

532
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:06,280
So they might have a spending wallet on their phone, but many, many don't.

533
00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:08,760
So that's friction.

534
00:23:09,580 --> 00:23:15,940
So how do you create awareness and how do you motivate consumers to spend time to get a spending wallet on their phone?

535
00:23:15,940 --> 00:23:19,400
even though the UX of those apps are, like I said earlier, are good now,

536
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,280
but still you have to install it.

537
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:22,800
You have to somehow get Bitcoin into it.

538
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:24,800
So there's still all that friction.

539
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,600
And then third, what's the motivation for them to spend Bitcoin?

540
00:23:29,860 --> 00:23:33,860
Especially a lot of Americans, they get 1%, 2% cash back with their credit card.

541
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,840
Why go through all this hassle?

542
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,820
And then why spend Bitcoin? I don't get any money back.

543
00:23:38,140 --> 00:23:42,760
And then the fourth reason is that because merchant adoption is so low,

544
00:23:42,980 --> 00:23:53,758
it just super awkward It kind of like if you have a Discover credit card but even way worse If you go into America do you accept Discover And you told no

545
00:23:53,758 --> 00:23:54,898
most of the time.

546
00:23:55,238 --> 00:23:57,378
You just feel beaten down. It's a waste of time.

547
00:23:57,458 --> 00:23:59,158
It's awkward. You feel like an idiot.

548
00:23:59,398 --> 00:24:00,478
Like, oh, I should have Visa.

549
00:24:01,118 --> 00:24:02,318
I should just use Visa.

550
00:24:02,638 --> 00:24:03,838
How does Discover even help?

551
00:24:03,918 --> 00:24:06,558
I had a Discover card.

552
00:24:06,738 --> 00:24:07,338
Why? How?

553
00:24:08,078 --> 00:24:10,698
Everyone accepts it. What do you do with this Discover thing?

554
00:24:10,998 --> 00:24:12,358
I mean, when I was like, wait, wait,

555
00:24:12,358 --> 00:24:13,478
like a different era.

556
00:24:13,718 --> 00:24:15,698
But I used Discover in Iowa.

557
00:24:15,878 --> 00:24:17,158
Hey, just throwing this out there,

558
00:24:17,238 --> 00:24:18,378
quick random idea.

559
00:24:18,838 --> 00:24:20,238
Since Discover is so backwards

560
00:24:20,238 --> 00:24:21,238
and like small or whatever,

561
00:24:21,298 --> 00:24:22,198
but somehow it's survived.

562
00:24:22,538 --> 00:24:23,918
Is that like an acquisition target

563
00:24:23,918 --> 00:24:24,778
for Square or somebody?

564
00:24:24,898 --> 00:24:25,998
Just like if you're in a viral network,

565
00:24:26,118 --> 00:24:27,018
turn it like whatever,

566
00:24:27,178 --> 00:24:27,878
convert them all to Bitcoin.

567
00:24:28,838 --> 00:24:29,318
Throwing it out.

568
00:24:29,498 --> 00:24:30,338
Yeah, I don't know.

569
00:24:32,198 --> 00:24:33,958
Yeah, so anyway,

570
00:24:34,098 --> 00:24:35,398
I think those are the remaining.

571
00:24:35,638 --> 00:24:36,878
Oh, and then taxes as well.

572
00:24:36,918 --> 00:24:39,738
But honestly, I bring taxes lowest on that list.

573
00:24:39,738 --> 00:24:41,678
I think it's the psychology of like,

574
00:24:41,678 --> 00:24:43,738
a very low percentage of

575
00:24:43,738 --> 00:24:46,198
the speed at which Steve ships

576
00:24:46,198 --> 00:24:48,158
the ideas you guys come up with on the show

577
00:24:48,158 --> 00:24:48,558
is epic.

578
00:24:49,638 --> 00:24:50,378
We got some interesting comments.

579
00:24:50,378 --> 00:24:50,918
Thanks, Matthew.

580
00:24:51,338 --> 00:24:51,558
Yeah.

581
00:24:51,918 --> 00:24:53,178
Yeah, because we actually,

582
00:24:53,358 --> 00:24:55,298
yeah, the Spiral stuff did stem from the show.

583
00:24:55,298 --> 00:24:55,898
So,

584
00:24:56,358 --> 00:24:57,798
but I,

585
00:24:58,238 --> 00:24:58,558
my,

586
00:24:58,898 --> 00:25:02,018
one of the developers who is a former Spiral grantee,

587
00:25:02,118 --> 00:25:03,138
we were chatting about like,

588
00:25:03,238 --> 00:25:04,338
what are the remaining barriers?

589
00:25:04,538 --> 00:25:06,238
And here's my ranked list.

590
00:25:06,618 --> 00:25:07,758
I still think number,

591
00:25:08,158 --> 00:25:09,438
I still think number one is like,

592
00:25:09,438 --> 00:25:13,438
lack of reason for consumers to spend Bitcoin.

593
00:25:13,918 --> 00:25:14,178
Why?

594
00:25:15,158 --> 00:25:17,658
Now, we said in the show a few episodes ago,

595
00:25:17,998 --> 00:25:19,958
if Pink Owl offers 21% discount,

596
00:25:20,058 --> 00:25:21,718
that's going to get normal people

597
00:25:21,718 --> 00:25:24,278
installing wallets, getting Bitcoin on it

598
00:25:24,278 --> 00:25:25,158
to save 21%.

599
00:25:25,158 --> 00:25:25,618
That's steep.

600
00:25:26,718 --> 00:25:29,078
Eventually, even like a small kickback

601
00:25:29,078 --> 00:25:32,298
could be valuable,

602
00:25:32,798 --> 00:25:34,938
which actually another news item from this week

603
00:25:34,938 --> 00:25:36,878
is Visa MasterCard settlement.

604
00:25:37,638 --> 00:25:39,618
Apparently, there's been a 20-year legal battle,

605
00:25:39,778 --> 00:25:40,578
and there's a settlement.

606
00:25:40,898 --> 00:25:41,778
Are you guys not aware of this?

607
00:25:41,958 --> 00:25:42,478
I'm not aware of that.

608
00:25:42,478 --> 00:25:45,058
I think it has huge ramifications,

609
00:25:45,298 --> 00:25:48,958
because today, any merchant that accepts Visa

610
00:25:48,958 --> 00:25:50,978
has to accept any card.

611
00:25:51,238 --> 00:25:52,478
It's in their agreement.

612
00:25:52,818 --> 00:25:55,218
So that's why if you get these rewards cards,

613
00:25:55,298 --> 00:25:56,698
they have amazing rewards.

614
00:25:56,878 --> 00:25:59,178
The merchant actually has to spend more on fees

615
00:25:59,178 --> 00:26:02,498
when consumers have used cards that have higher rewards.

616
00:26:02,518 --> 00:26:03,638
What do you mean any card?

617
00:26:03,898 --> 00:26:05,118
So they have to accept Discover?

618
00:26:05,318 --> 00:26:06,718
Is this like some Visa entity?

619
00:26:06,718 --> 00:26:07,478
The Monopoly thing?

620
00:26:07,998 --> 00:26:10,218
No, Visa issued.

621
00:26:10,378 --> 00:26:11,838
They have to accept any Visa card.

622
00:26:12,378 --> 00:26:13,378
Like if you're a merchant,

623
00:26:13,858 --> 00:26:14,258
even if,

624
00:26:14,618 --> 00:26:15,358
so if I come in,

625
00:26:15,478 --> 00:26:16,698
let's say I have two Visa cards.

626
00:26:16,958 --> 00:26:18,178
One has a way better

627
00:26:18,178 --> 00:26:19,858
consumer reward for me.

628
00:26:20,218 --> 00:26:21,998
But you have to pay more in fees.

629
00:26:22,218 --> 00:26:23,578
You have to accept it.

630
00:26:24,078 --> 00:26:25,158
Yeah, but it has a Visa on it.

631
00:26:25,358 --> 00:26:26,638
Visa says you have to accept it.

632
00:26:26,638 --> 00:26:27,118
You have to accept it.

633
00:26:27,118 --> 00:26:28,138
You can't discriminate and say,

634
00:26:28,598 --> 00:26:30,418
we'll accept some things for the Visa,

635
00:26:30,498 --> 00:26:31,418
but other things for the Visa.

636
00:26:31,418 --> 00:26:32,338
The settlement, though.

637
00:26:32,478 --> 00:26:33,358
Yeah, but who's enforcing that?

638
00:26:33,438 --> 00:26:34,378
I mean, can't the merchants be like,

639
00:26:34,538 --> 00:26:34,718
nah.

640
00:26:35,078 --> 00:26:36,038
No, Visa will be like,

641
00:26:36,158 --> 00:26:36,458
bye-bye.

642
00:26:36,458 --> 00:26:36,778
Yeah.

643
00:26:36,778 --> 00:26:37,218
Interesting.

644
00:26:37,838 --> 00:26:39,178
Visa is an enforcer, right?

645
00:26:39,478 --> 00:26:40,578
Which is what else we should talk about.

646
00:26:42,338 --> 00:26:45,018
But with the settlement, that is going away.

647
00:26:45,418 --> 00:26:47,578
So I think this is massively disruptive.

648
00:26:48,258 --> 00:26:55,918
So merchants can all of a sudden say, no, we only accept the Visa cards that have lower fees.

649
00:26:55,998 --> 00:26:56,298
Oh, yeah.

650
00:26:56,578 --> 00:27:05,878
That's going to create tons of consumer confusion and frustration because all of a sudden, like, I've, you know, there's a whole segment of people who optimize their cards to get the most money back.

651
00:27:05,878 --> 00:27:06,378
Oh, yeah.

652
00:27:06,458 --> 00:27:12,738
If all of a sudden it gets, if it introduces this problem of like, oh, all of a sudden most of the merchants like you don't accept this.

653
00:27:13,038 --> 00:27:15,138
And now it's kind of like a 50-50 chance.

654
00:27:15,238 --> 00:27:15,398
Yeah.

655
00:27:15,538 --> 00:27:16,618
Or it keeps declining.

656
00:27:17,138 --> 00:27:20,218
Then it's like, I don't, it feels more like Discover.

657
00:27:21,318 --> 00:27:22,638
And so it just opens up.

658
00:27:22,718 --> 00:27:24,838
I think that is going to open up a huge opportunity.

659
00:27:24,998 --> 00:27:25,498
It just happened.

660
00:27:25,618 --> 00:27:27,358
I have no idea how it happens to coincide.

661
00:27:27,358 --> 00:27:29,618
It literally announced this week.

662
00:27:29,798 --> 00:27:30,258
No coincidence.

663
00:27:30,258 --> 00:27:31,338
It happens to coincide with this.

664
00:27:31,338 --> 00:27:31,698
No coincidence.

665
00:27:31,998 --> 00:27:32,518
So huge.

666
00:27:32,518 --> 00:27:38,918
But yeah, I think number one issue is like lack of reason for a consumer to spend.

667
00:27:39,078 --> 00:27:46,218
But if they get discounts and incentives, and again, if it's in person with your local favorite merchant, just the emotional.

668
00:27:46,398 --> 00:27:49,238
I'm helping my small business that I love and care about.

669
00:27:49,518 --> 00:27:51,718
Those are reasons to spend in Bitcoin because it helps them out.

670
00:27:51,718 --> 00:27:55,158
Well, and by the way, if you were at the plushie there, your friends, they ask you that.

671
00:27:55,298 --> 00:27:58,058
Like, I think that, yes, a little kickback is probably like the final thing you need.

672
00:27:58,058 --> 00:28:04,218
But also, I wouldn't underestimate, most people are at least somewhat curious.

673
00:28:04,438 --> 00:28:05,578
People have innate curiosity.

674
00:28:06,018 --> 00:28:07,798
And most people are going to be like, what is Bitcoin?

675
00:28:08,278 --> 00:28:11,818
And if you have the little thing left behind there, and they're going to be like, oh, cool, I've heard about this.

676
00:28:11,858 --> 00:28:12,518
I've never played with it.

677
00:28:12,738 --> 00:28:17,898
Almost every person I've talked with, unless they're completely anachronistic, which maybe they're right in the long run.

678
00:28:18,278 --> 00:28:20,518
But I think people think it's cool, too.

679
00:28:21,058 --> 00:28:24,438
As long as they don't already hate it, it's like, why not try this new thing?

680
00:28:24,438 --> 00:28:53,198
Right. So I think that's the number one reason, but I do see it being addressed. I think the number two reason is the percentage of merchants, just like if it's hit or miss. Well, one way to address that is with a map, right? And again, BTC map has existed, but it's been pretty sparse. And if you look at it now, it's still sparse, but it's growing quickly. And you can imagine it becoming not sparse. And so having tools like that, and also the integration of BTC map, it's already in like, Waldo Satoshi and Zeus and a bunch of other, well, I think Zeus, I don't know.

681
00:28:53,198 --> 00:28:55,118
A bunch of Okwa, Albi.

682
00:28:55,378 --> 00:28:56,458
But now it's in Cash App.

683
00:28:56,518 --> 00:28:58,458
So it's just more and more integrated in wallets

684
00:28:58,458 --> 00:28:59,778
and accessible to people.

685
00:29:00,618 --> 00:29:02,258
That will help with that issue.

686
00:29:03,158 --> 00:29:06,378
I think those are the two primary issues

687
00:29:06,378 --> 00:29:07,338
and they're being addressed.

688
00:29:07,478 --> 00:29:09,038
Now, others will cite,

689
00:29:09,398 --> 00:29:10,778
oh, people don't want to spend their Bitcoin.

690
00:29:11,038 --> 00:29:12,078
We've talked about this in the show.

691
00:29:12,238 --> 00:29:13,558
I actually think it's BS.

692
00:29:13,718 --> 00:29:16,338
I mean, I agree that is a common refrain,

693
00:29:16,778 --> 00:29:19,258
but I don't agree that that's actually

694
00:29:19,258 --> 00:29:20,758
going to hold people back from spending.

695
00:29:20,758 --> 00:29:26,878
If I'm offered 21% discount, I'm going to have my savings account with Bitcoin.

696
00:29:27,018 --> 00:29:27,758
I don't touch that.

697
00:29:27,898 --> 00:29:33,518
And then my spending wallet, which I'll keep spend and replenish to get my 21% discount.

698
00:29:33,658 --> 00:29:35,138
But to be clear, I will say this.

699
00:29:35,758 --> 00:29:39,318
I mean, look, I would do a little bit of that just for the love of the cause.

700
00:29:39,538 --> 00:29:42,258
But it would only be for the love of the cause.

701
00:29:42,938 --> 00:29:47,278
Now with this feature, I will tell you, I will not be spending any Bitcoin from Cash App.

702
00:29:47,278 --> 00:29:52,818
I will be 100% on every transaction, dollars, $2 using Bitcoin in the background.

703
00:29:53,158 --> 00:29:54,038
That's the killer app.

704
00:29:54,218 --> 00:29:54,858
That's the killer app.

705
00:29:55,598 --> 00:29:56,718
100% of the time.

706
00:29:57,278 --> 00:29:57,638
We'll get to that.

707
00:29:57,678 --> 00:29:59,378
I agree with that, but we'll get to that too.

708
00:29:59,498 --> 00:30:07,938
But even for getting that feature dollars, I still think if you have an incentive to spend Bitcoin, you'll spend Bitcoin.

709
00:30:08,498 --> 00:30:11,178
Because you're in one of two camps.

710
00:30:11,278 --> 00:30:15,858
Either you hold dollars as well, and if you do, then you can spend and replenish.

711
00:30:15,858 --> 00:30:16,998
if you don't hold

712
00:30:16,998 --> 00:30:18,198
if you're 100% Bitcoin

713
00:30:18,198 --> 00:30:19,358
you have to spend Bitcoin

714
00:30:19,358 --> 00:30:20,838
so there's no situation

715
00:30:20,838 --> 00:30:21,698
where you wouldn't spend

716
00:30:21,698 --> 00:30:22,458
I do think it's important

717
00:30:22,458 --> 00:30:23,478
I think honestly

718
00:30:23,478 --> 00:30:24,498
this like blitzkrieg

719
00:30:24,498 --> 00:30:25,198
that's happening right now

720
00:30:25,198 --> 00:30:26,198
is going to solve this problem

721
00:30:26,198 --> 00:30:27,598
like I would 100% do that

722
00:30:27,598 --> 00:30:28,738
if I didn't have any tax concerns

723
00:30:28,738 --> 00:30:29,418
honestly

724
00:30:29,418 --> 00:30:30,118
I just don't want to deal with that

725
00:30:30,118 --> 00:30:30,558
so then yeah

726
00:30:30,558 --> 00:30:31,918
that's the next thing in the list

727
00:30:31,918 --> 00:30:32,738
is tax concerns

728
00:30:32,738 --> 00:30:34,438
and I think there

729
00:30:34,438 --> 00:30:35,118
you're going to have

730
00:30:35,118 --> 00:30:37,358
some segment of people

731
00:30:37,358 --> 00:30:38,258
who would just be

732
00:30:38,258 --> 00:30:39,458
civil disobedience

733
00:30:39,458 --> 00:30:40,138
they'll be like

734
00:30:40,138 --> 00:30:40,518
this is

735
00:30:40,518 --> 00:30:41,398
shout out to Darth Quinn

736
00:30:41,398 --> 00:30:43,878
this will be BS

737
00:30:43,878 --> 00:30:45,378
I'm going to spend money

738
00:30:45,378 --> 00:30:47,438
and like if enough of us do it,

739
00:30:47,838 --> 00:30:48,678
the law will change.

740
00:30:48,778 --> 00:30:49,258
And that's happening.

741
00:30:49,398 --> 00:30:51,018
Then there'll be a segment of people

742
00:30:51,018 --> 00:30:54,238
who are ignorant,

743
00:30:54,498 --> 00:30:56,098
meaning they don't know.

744
00:30:56,198 --> 00:30:57,438
They don't know that it's taxed

745
00:30:57,438 --> 00:30:58,078
and they'll just spend

746
00:30:58,078 --> 00:30:59,438
because they're getting 21% off.

747
00:30:59,438 --> 00:31:01,718
And I think that'll be a much larger group

748
00:31:01,718 --> 00:31:08,418
than proactive, knowledgeable civil disobedience.

749
00:31:08,918 --> 00:31:12,318
And if the two groups combined are big enough,

750
00:31:12,878 --> 00:31:14,478
the law will change.

751
00:31:14,478 --> 00:31:16,278
I mean, look at the Uber playbook.

752
00:31:16,558 --> 00:31:27,838
It became so popular in cities that even though cities resisted and whether or not laws were being broken or taxi broke, you know, whatever, tokens or whatever, like it's ubiquitous now, right?

753
00:31:27,938 --> 00:31:29,478
Because there's so much value to consumers.

754
00:31:29,638 --> 00:31:37,078
So imagine a world where there's like tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of small businesses in America who are benefiting from this.

755
00:31:37,198 --> 00:31:37,318
Yeah.

756
00:31:37,438 --> 00:31:39,818
That's strong voting power and political power.

757
00:31:40,058 --> 00:31:41,598
They're not going to like shut that down.

758
00:31:41,598 --> 00:31:44,478
So I think that will address that issue.

759
00:31:44,658 --> 00:31:49,638
But also, I'll leak a little alpha on the show.

760
00:31:49,938 --> 00:31:50,978
Ooh, here we go.

761
00:31:51,318 --> 00:31:51,938
You heard it here first.

762
00:31:51,958 --> 00:31:54,758
Let's just say the announcements from Block are not done yet.

763
00:31:54,898 --> 00:31:56,298
So stay tuned for Monday.

764
00:31:56,458 --> 00:31:57,198
That's all I'll say.

765
00:31:58,698 --> 00:31:59,178
But anyway.

766
00:32:00,398 --> 00:32:00,598
Sick.

767
00:32:00,978 --> 00:32:07,158
Yeah, so I think there's plausible answers to breaking down all the barriers to spending.

768
00:32:07,738 --> 00:32:10,758
And then we can get this sustainable.

769
00:32:10,758 --> 00:32:12,278
and not just like a one-hit wonder

770
00:32:12,278 --> 00:32:13,778
and then it goes away like sustainable.

771
00:32:14,378 --> 00:32:15,418
Now you want to talk about the,

772
00:32:15,958 --> 00:32:16,918
not only spending Bitcoin,

773
00:32:17,058 --> 00:32:18,758
but yes, an enormous announcement

774
00:32:18,758 --> 00:32:20,478
from Cash App this week

775
00:32:20,478 --> 00:32:21,158
is that you can,

776
00:32:21,738 --> 00:32:23,298
from your dollar balance in Cash App,

777
00:32:23,358 --> 00:32:24,118
which there's what,

778
00:32:24,358 --> 00:32:26,478
60, 70, 80 million Cash App customers,

779
00:32:26,698 --> 00:32:27,218
some like,

780
00:32:27,398 --> 00:32:28,898
huge, huge, huge, real deal,

781
00:32:29,098 --> 00:32:32,078
that have cash or have dollar balances.

782
00:32:32,638 --> 00:32:35,358
They can now pay lightning,

783
00:32:35,778 --> 00:32:38,018
like Bolt 11 lightning invoices

784
00:32:38,018 --> 00:32:40,898
with their balance.

785
00:32:41,038 --> 00:32:43,438
Whether it be Square or any Lightning balance.

786
00:32:43,758 --> 00:32:44,558
So, yes.

787
00:32:44,738 --> 00:32:46,418
I feel very Gen Z now.

788
00:32:46,658 --> 00:32:47,398
Well, actually, sorry.

789
00:32:47,498 --> 00:32:49,278
I learned that was not Gen Z, but Gen Alpha.

790
00:32:49,638 --> 00:32:49,718
Yeah.

791
00:32:49,878 --> 00:32:50,278
Gen Alpha?

792
00:32:50,638 --> 00:32:51,938
DK has moved on from Gen Z.

793
00:32:55,058 --> 00:32:56,378
We're getting Alpha from the Alpha.

794
00:32:57,338 --> 00:32:59,938
So, obviously, it's huge.

795
00:32:59,938 --> 00:33:03,098
Because a ton of people don't have Bitcoin yet,

796
00:33:03,218 --> 00:33:04,578
don't have spending Bitcoin yet,

797
00:33:04,638 --> 00:33:06,018
or they have a psychology,

798
00:33:06,198 --> 00:33:07,118
even though I disagree with them,

799
00:33:07,158 --> 00:33:07,738
but they have a psychology.

800
00:33:07,738 --> 00:33:12,518
do i don't want to spend bitcoin whatever the case is it's a huge segment of people yeah who can now

801
00:33:12,518 --> 00:33:20,298
um pay this lightning invoice and and like why why do they care well the merchant cares because they

802
00:33:20,298 --> 00:33:26,218
saved the fees right so the merchant cares so um you still get a problem how does the consumer know

803
00:33:26,218 --> 00:33:32,418
to do that and what's motivating them to that well all of a sudden the motivate they don't have to

804
00:33:32,418 --> 00:33:35,998
be nearly as motivated because they don't have to install a bitcoin wallet they don't have to

805
00:33:35,998 --> 00:33:39,478
acquire and hold Bitcoin. I guess another friction is like some people are worried about the

806
00:33:39,478 --> 00:33:43,718
volatility, right? I mean, check the Bitcoin price. It's gone down recently, right? We all,

807
00:33:43,958 --> 00:33:50,098
anyone in Bitcoin is accustomed to that and it's like, whatever. But if you're newer to Bitcoin or

808
00:33:50,098 --> 00:33:57,118
you're not yet into Bitcoin, that can be scary. So yeah, for all the people who hold it, the

809
00:33:57,118 --> 00:34:04,958
friction to doing this is much lower. The only friction is you have to be aware and you have to,

810
00:34:04,958 --> 00:34:06,398
when you go to a merchant,

811
00:34:07,018 --> 00:34:08,458
you have to say,

812
00:34:08,598 --> 00:34:10,698
I want to pay in Bitcoin,

813
00:34:11,038 --> 00:34:12,298
even though you don't have Bitcoin.

814
00:34:12,878 --> 00:34:14,218
Meaning like the,

815
00:34:14,498 --> 00:34:14,738
you have to,

816
00:34:14,778 --> 00:34:15,978
because the merchant has to

817
00:34:15,978 --> 00:34:17,678
like use the UI

818
00:34:17,678 --> 00:34:20,878
to switch it to a Bitcoin QR code.

819
00:34:21,038 --> 00:34:23,218
So that actually is still friction.

820
00:34:23,518 --> 00:34:25,419
And I know the team is thinking

821
00:34:25,419 --> 00:34:26,838
like in discussions

822
00:34:26,838 --> 00:34:27,758
about how to make it

823
00:34:27,758 --> 00:34:29,678
so that the default screen

824
00:34:29,678 --> 00:34:30,958
shown to a consumer

825
00:34:30,958 --> 00:34:32,778
can handle anything and everything.

826
00:34:33,098 --> 00:34:33,318
Yes.

827
00:34:33,318 --> 00:34:34,098
If we can,

828
00:34:34,258 --> 00:34:34,398
I mean,

829
00:34:34,398 --> 00:34:35,398
and it's challenging.

830
00:34:35,778 --> 00:34:37,218
But if that can be pulled off,

831
00:34:37,278 --> 00:34:38,238
that would be killer.

832
00:34:38,498 --> 00:34:38,978
I love it.

833
00:34:39,038 --> 00:34:39,598
Because otherwise,

834
00:34:39,718 --> 00:34:40,718
it does create a little bit

835
00:34:40,718 --> 00:34:41,498
of an awkward situation,

836
00:34:41,618 --> 00:34:43,338
especially for people

837
00:34:43,338 --> 00:34:44,118
who don't hold Bitcoin.

838
00:34:44,318 --> 00:34:45,118
If you hold Bitcoin

839
00:34:45,118 --> 00:34:45,838
and you're into Bitcoin,

840
00:34:45,938 --> 00:34:46,998
then you're almost enthusiastic

841
00:34:46,998 --> 00:34:47,298
to be like,

842
00:34:47,358 --> 00:34:48,158
oh, I want to spend in Bitcoin.

843
00:34:48,278 --> 00:34:48,978
Can I spend in Bitcoin?

844
00:34:49,198 --> 00:34:49,578
Or, you know,

845
00:34:49,758 --> 00:34:51,398
here's how you do it, Mr. Merchant.

846
00:34:52,118 --> 00:34:52,678
Here's what you want.

847
00:34:53,058 --> 00:34:54,898
Whereas if you just have to hold dollars,

848
00:34:56,378 --> 00:34:58,178
it's weird and awkward to say that.

849
00:34:58,478 --> 00:34:58,578
Yeah.

850
00:34:58,738 --> 00:35:00,238
Okay, so a bunch of thoughts there.

851
00:35:00,258 --> 00:35:01,338
And I know you guys are already

852
00:35:01,338 --> 00:35:02,078
sort of ahead of the curve.

853
00:35:02,078 --> 00:35:03,598
But to me, a couple of things here.

854
00:35:03,598 --> 00:35:28,558
So number one, let's say there's 70 million Cash App users and 4 million merchants that use Square. So Square is in a very beautiful position compared to anyone else in the world because they own both sides of the transaction. That's a really, really big deal. And so I think one of the first things that's going to happen here, and I think this would actually be dope for Cash App to do, Miles, if you're listening, I'm sure you all thought of something similar, but imagine for a minute, because you guys remember even a couple of years ago, there was a Cash App Pay, even pre-Bitcoin.

855
00:35:28,558 --> 00:35:30,578
And with Cash App Pay, it's like, I'm paying with Bitcoin.

856
00:35:30,978 --> 00:35:34,578
Or sorry, I'm paying on an internal ledger between Square and Cash App.

857
00:35:34,618 --> 00:35:34,758
Great.

858
00:35:34,858 --> 00:35:36,398
So they already saved fees for the company.

859
00:35:36,638 --> 00:35:37,338
That made a lot of sense.

860
00:35:37,698 --> 00:35:40,598
Miles tweeted, they deprecated all of the old internal ledger.

861
00:35:40,678 --> 00:35:42,258
And now it's all Lightning, which is awesome.

862
00:35:42,378 --> 00:35:43,618
So they're clearly moving that way.

863
00:35:43,858 --> 00:35:44,358
That's a big deal.

864
00:35:44,439 --> 00:35:48,478
But I would always, like, look, I always try and support the Square ecosystem as much as

865
00:35:48,478 --> 00:35:49,538
I can because I know what's coming.

866
00:35:49,978 --> 00:35:51,738
So I pay for things like Tidal.

867
00:35:51,878 --> 00:35:52,518
Shout out to Max.

868
00:35:52,578 --> 00:35:53,898
I know we're going to get Bitcoin payments there.

869
00:35:54,178 --> 00:35:56,959
I used to use Cash App Pay because I know we're going to get Bitcoin and we already got that

870
00:35:56,959 --> 00:35:57,178
there.

871
00:35:58,138 --> 00:35:59,419
But imagine for a minute,

872
00:35:59,518 --> 00:36:00,238
the merchant's like,

873
00:36:00,558 --> 00:36:01,798
even if they don't want to explain Bitcoin,

874
00:36:01,919 --> 00:36:04,038
the merchant is so incentivized to save money now,

875
00:36:04,398 --> 00:36:05,398
all they have to do is say,

876
00:36:05,459 --> 00:36:08,378
hey, listen, you download Cash App right now.

877
00:36:08,678 --> 00:36:10,138
I think they already get a $5 referral.

878
00:36:10,419 --> 00:36:11,459
Maybe you could sweeten the deal,

879
00:36:11,598 --> 00:36:12,498
doubling that by saying

880
00:36:12,498 --> 00:36:14,038
with your first Bitcoin transaction,

881
00:36:14,198 --> 00:36:16,478
you get whatever, double that right now on the spot.

882
00:36:16,939 --> 00:36:18,198
I'm going to give you 10 bucks.

883
00:36:19,298 --> 00:36:20,658
Just download Cash App.

884
00:36:20,959 --> 00:36:22,398
You've heard the rappers talk about it.

885
00:36:22,538 --> 00:36:23,818
Kendrick, I'm sure, mentioned or something.

886
00:36:23,818 --> 00:36:24,338
It's cool.

887
00:36:25,178 --> 00:36:25,838
You save.

888
00:36:25,939 --> 00:36:26,598
You help me out.

889
00:36:26,598 --> 00:36:28,898
like, dude, the cash app could just explode.

890
00:36:29,678 --> 00:36:30,638
Like, think about that for a second.

891
00:36:30,818 --> 00:36:32,198
Like, every single person,

892
00:36:32,318 --> 00:36:33,998
and eventually I know the next thing to figure out

893
00:36:33,998 --> 00:36:35,518
is like once you have one QR code,

894
00:36:35,598 --> 00:36:36,618
and then even beyond that,

895
00:36:36,939 --> 00:36:38,978
the real killer app is once you can do with NFC

896
00:36:38,978 --> 00:36:40,078
or some way to pay,

897
00:36:40,318 --> 00:36:42,238
just like tap your phone, like Apple Pay there.

898
00:36:42,939 --> 00:36:45,018
Once you do that and you make Bitcoin the default,

899
00:36:45,258 --> 00:36:47,018
like, I mean, my big question is like,

900
00:36:47,098 --> 00:36:49,478
you know, the old payment networks just got disrupted.

901
00:36:49,818 --> 00:36:50,558
So I will say,

902
00:36:50,678 --> 00:36:54,758
so the Square team is working on NFC support as well.

903
00:36:54,898 --> 00:36:56,158
Yeah, I feel comfortable sharing that.

904
00:36:56,158 --> 00:36:58,358
Miles has been very comfortable sharing the roadmaps.

905
00:36:58,478 --> 00:36:59,638
I'll feel comfortable too.

906
00:36:59,798 --> 00:37:01,078
Yeah, Miles is being real right now.

907
00:37:01,118 --> 00:37:01,618
He's showing everything.

908
00:37:01,758 --> 00:37:04,758
But doesn't iOS protect their property there or no?

909
00:37:05,278 --> 00:37:08,758
Yeah, so we worked with a lot of different,

910
00:37:08,919 --> 00:37:10,038
we, like Spiral Teams,

911
00:37:10,138 --> 00:37:12,538
worked with a lot of different wallets on NSC support.

912
00:37:13,538 --> 00:37:14,618
It's a bit complicated,

913
00:37:15,178 --> 00:37:16,898
but I'll try to explain it simply.

914
00:37:18,718 --> 00:37:23,578
If any device can be a sender and do an NSC payment,

915
00:37:23,958 --> 00:37:25,838
but only an Android device can receive,

916
00:37:26,158 --> 00:37:29,958
unless you sign a partnership with Apple

917
00:37:29,958 --> 00:37:32,919
and then an iOS device can receive.

918
00:37:33,439 --> 00:37:34,998
So that's the situation.

919
00:37:35,298 --> 00:37:37,498
It's a permissioned API from Apple.

920
00:37:38,439 --> 00:37:39,078
Hopefully that changes.

921
00:37:39,078 --> 00:37:40,698
Are there examples of the kinds of things

922
00:37:40,698 --> 00:37:42,098
that they do enable that for?

923
00:37:42,738 --> 00:37:43,178
I don't know.

924
00:37:43,178 --> 00:37:44,278
But I would think,

925
00:37:44,478 --> 00:37:46,018
so it's maybe difficult

926
00:37:46,018 --> 00:37:47,658
if you're like a small startup

927
00:37:47,658 --> 00:37:50,098
in El Salvador

928
00:37:50,098 --> 00:37:51,538
or you're like an open source project.

929
00:37:51,618 --> 00:37:52,218
But if you block,

930
00:37:52,278 --> 00:37:53,358
I would hope and think

931
00:37:53,358 --> 00:37:55,118
the block could sign a partnership with Apple.

932
00:37:55,118 --> 00:37:56,378
So hopefully that's explored.

933
00:37:57,278 --> 00:38:02,738
And then not only would Android devices from, I mean, Square has both Android and iOS devices, right?

934
00:38:03,218 --> 00:38:11,858
So what Square could do already is support receiving on all the Android-based Square devices.

935
00:38:12,258 --> 00:38:20,498
And then any consumer using a wallet that supports NSC, and there's already several that do, like Phoenix supports NSC, Zeus does, Wallace Satoshi, I think, does.

936
00:38:20,778 --> 00:38:23,298
Like, it's quite easy to enable.

937
00:38:23,298 --> 00:38:25,358
then NSC could be used.

938
00:38:26,358 --> 00:38:27,678
Wait, so are there Square terminals?

939
00:38:27,818 --> 00:38:28,758
Are those Android based or not?

940
00:38:29,698 --> 00:38:30,298
Some are.

941
00:38:30,758 --> 00:38:33,298
Like the new handheld one is Android.

942
00:38:33,419 --> 00:38:33,838
Which by the way,

943
00:38:33,939 --> 00:38:35,558
I hadn't played that until last night.

944
00:38:35,778 --> 00:38:36,678
That's nice.

945
00:38:36,958 --> 00:38:37,618
It's basically a phone.

946
00:38:37,838 --> 00:38:38,138
It's dope.

947
00:38:38,138 --> 00:38:39,338
Block basically created a phone.

948
00:38:39,518 --> 00:38:39,658
Yeah.

949
00:38:40,518 --> 00:38:42,018
But yeah, some are iOS,

950
00:38:42,278 --> 00:38:43,238
some are Android.

951
00:38:43,598 --> 00:38:45,498
And then of course on regular phones,

952
00:38:45,838 --> 00:38:47,158
Square is supported as well.

953
00:38:47,238 --> 00:38:50,098
Both on iPhone and Android.

954
00:38:50,098 --> 00:38:50,738
And to be clear,

955
00:38:50,878 --> 00:38:52,078
you could also do this with a card, no?

956
00:38:52,118 --> 00:38:52,598
Because everyone's got,

957
00:38:52,598 --> 00:38:54,758
I even had this from back in the day, like the Cash App card.

958
00:38:54,878 --> 00:38:57,318
You can just have that be like a tap in FC2.

959
00:38:57,618 --> 00:38:57,778
Yeah.

960
00:38:58,558 --> 00:39:01,718
So I think that'll come.

961
00:39:01,838 --> 00:39:04,098
That'll improve the user experience.

962
00:39:04,098 --> 00:39:09,138
And hopefully iOS-based core devices will get supported as well.

963
00:39:09,238 --> 00:39:10,358
So that's one thing.

964
00:39:11,218 --> 00:39:12,738
I forget what else you were talking about.

965
00:39:12,958 --> 00:39:13,338
There's some other.

966
00:39:13,858 --> 00:39:14,038
Yeah.

967
00:39:14,178 --> 00:39:18,598
Anyway, I think that'll really improve the user experience as well.

968
00:39:18,698 --> 00:39:19,298
This is a big deal.

969
00:39:19,398 --> 00:39:20,518
You guys just opened up.

970
00:39:20,598 --> 00:39:20,878
Oh, I know.

971
00:39:20,878 --> 00:39:22,959
I want to talk the other dollars and lightning.

972
00:39:23,098 --> 00:39:23,198
Yeah.

973
00:39:23,258 --> 00:39:24,898
So huge thing for,

974
00:39:24,959 --> 00:39:25,459
for cash up.

975
00:39:25,518 --> 00:39:25,758
I mean,

976
00:39:25,838 --> 00:39:34,158
basically anyone using a Bitcoin wallet that supports lightning address can

977
00:39:34,158 --> 00:39:37,538
now pay a cash tag and then vice versa.

978
00:39:38,078 --> 00:39:38,398
Really?

979
00:39:38,778 --> 00:39:38,959
Yeah.

980
00:39:39,638 --> 00:39:40,478
And there's a commitment.

981
00:39:40,838 --> 00:39:40,939
I,

982
00:39:40,939 --> 00:39:45,898
I've been trying to persuade miles for years to support it at three 53,

983
00:39:46,098 --> 00:39:47,758
which we don't have to get in the weeds what that is,

984
00:39:47,818 --> 00:39:50,118
but he now committed to that publicly.

985
00:39:50,118 --> 00:39:52,058
so that will come

986
00:39:52,058 --> 00:39:53,578
so I imagine

987
00:39:53,578 --> 00:39:55,898
a better version of Lightning address

988
00:39:55,898 --> 00:39:58,198
I've told you

989
00:39:58,198 --> 00:39:59,738
I've told you guys this for years

990
00:39:59,738 --> 00:40:00,778
Is this Bolt 12 again?

991
00:40:01,138 --> 00:40:01,878
It's Bolt 12 again

992
00:40:01,878 --> 00:40:08,058
We'll dedicate an episode to that in the future

993
00:40:08,058 --> 00:40:09,558
but have you heard of Bolt 13?

994
00:40:10,698 --> 00:40:10,939
Yes

995
00:40:10,939 --> 00:40:13,738
Spiral funded a grantee working on Bolt 13

996
00:40:13,738 --> 00:40:14,258
Are you serious?

997
00:40:14,358 --> 00:40:15,138
It's for watchtowers

998
00:40:15,138 --> 00:40:17,638
Halloween or something

999
00:40:17,638 --> 00:40:19,098
But we'll get into that.

1000
00:40:20,038 --> 00:40:22,858
Let's just call it human Bitcoin address.

1001
00:40:23,218 --> 00:40:24,758
Like whatever the technology is underneath,

1002
00:40:25,038 --> 00:40:25,858
human Bitcoin addresses.

1003
00:40:26,318 --> 00:40:27,738
So I think in a year,

1004
00:40:27,838 --> 00:40:30,518
what I'd like to see is Robinhood, Venmo, Cash App,

1005
00:40:30,618 --> 00:40:31,598
all supporting this.

1006
00:40:32,038 --> 00:40:33,338
And then you have interoperability

1007
00:40:33,338 --> 00:40:34,158
between all these products.

1008
00:40:34,758 --> 00:40:37,858
Plus all the other Bitcoin wallets in the world,

1009
00:40:37,958 --> 00:40:39,098
not just big companies like that,

1010
00:40:39,158 --> 00:40:40,138
but like big companies like that

1011
00:40:40,138 --> 00:40:42,278
who each have their own ecosystem today

1012
00:40:42,278 --> 00:40:44,038
will become interoperable

1013
00:40:44,038 --> 00:40:45,958
along with everyone's startup,

1014
00:40:45,958 --> 00:40:47,718
everyone's open source project?

1015
00:40:47,858 --> 00:40:48,818
Do you think they're generally open to that?

1016
00:40:49,358 --> 00:40:49,818
I wouldn't.

1017
00:40:50,178 --> 00:40:50,818
I'm going to put enter.

1018
00:40:51,518 --> 00:40:53,758
Yeah, well, I can think of reasons why they wouldn't.

1019
00:40:53,958 --> 00:40:55,439
Why did AOL not survive?

1020
00:40:55,758 --> 00:40:56,998
Anyway, because they're dumb.

1021
00:40:57,058 --> 00:40:57,939
They should have plugged in the internet.

1022
00:40:58,158 --> 00:40:58,238
Right.

1023
00:40:58,538 --> 00:40:58,658
Yeah.

1024
00:40:58,939 --> 00:40:59,358
Well, okay, so.

1025
00:40:59,758 --> 00:41:02,498
But Spiral is going to be like selling that.

1026
00:41:02,638 --> 00:41:03,838
One question on that.

1027
00:41:03,898 --> 00:41:05,058
So I want to just pause here.

1028
00:41:05,419 --> 00:41:06,758
So are you telling me right now

1029
00:41:06,758 --> 00:41:09,678
I can go into my Albi account,

1030
00:41:10,018 --> 00:41:10,718
my Albi wallet,

1031
00:41:11,198 --> 00:41:13,158
and I can send a payment from Albi

1032
00:41:13,158 --> 00:41:16,138
to my cash tag right now.

1033
00:41:18,358 --> 00:41:18,838
Bruh!

1034
00:41:19,078 --> 00:41:19,959
Where's my phone?

1035
00:41:20,419 --> 00:41:20,878
So in...

1036
00:41:20,878 --> 00:41:21,318
I'm going to see this thing.

1037
00:41:21,858 --> 00:41:21,998
Yeah.

1038
00:41:22,198 --> 00:41:22,478
So I mean,

1039
00:41:22,578 --> 00:41:23,798
dollars on lightning

1040
00:41:23,798 --> 00:41:26,518
is now in Cash App, right?

1041
00:41:26,658 --> 00:41:27,798
I gotta see what my tag is.

1042
00:41:27,798 --> 00:41:28,318
So...

1043
00:41:28,318 --> 00:41:30,998
Does dollars on lightning mean

1044
00:41:30,998 --> 00:41:31,818
you're taking,

1045
00:41:32,178 --> 00:41:34,238
you're sending as if it's dollars

1046
00:41:34,238 --> 00:41:36,218
and it's converting to lightning?

1047
00:41:36,578 --> 00:41:38,098
Strike did this like three years ago.

1048
00:41:38,558 --> 00:41:40,318
So it's the same concept.

1049
00:41:40,638 --> 00:41:42,858
Like my personal story,

1050
00:41:42,858 --> 00:41:47,998
I was in Ghana maybe, yeah, like three years ago, I think, for the Bitcoin conference there.

1051
00:41:48,398 --> 00:41:51,098
And went out to eat at a restaurant.

1052
00:41:51,758 --> 00:41:55,318
And actually, it was with block employees.

1053
00:41:55,518 --> 00:41:56,158
Jack was there.

1054
00:41:56,419 --> 00:41:58,458
And you would expect the CEO to pay for the bill.

1055
00:41:58,538 --> 00:42:01,198
But he makes me pay because I was the senior person.

1056
00:42:01,758 --> 00:42:02,419
Smart man.

1057
00:42:02,898 --> 00:42:05,658
Referring to my age, not my position at the company.

1058
00:42:06,698 --> 00:42:07,618
You're older than Jack?

1059
00:42:08,138 --> 00:42:08,358
Yeah.

1060
00:42:08,698 --> 00:42:09,198
For real?

1061
00:42:09,538 --> 00:42:09,758
Yeah.

1062
00:42:10,598 --> 00:42:11,278
Oh, man.

1063
00:42:11,538 --> 00:42:12,258
I feel you.

1064
00:42:12,258 --> 00:42:16,258
I don't want Jack to hear this segment because you're like...

1065
00:42:16,258 --> 00:42:17,298
I didn't mean it that way.

1066
00:42:18,478 --> 00:42:20,018
You're saying I look really young.

1067
00:42:20,238 --> 00:42:20,818
Okay, thanks.

1068
00:42:21,018 --> 00:42:22,538
Wait, so what's my...

1069
00:42:22,538 --> 00:42:23,618
Is it Max A. Webster?

1070
00:42:24,398 --> 00:42:25,458
I shouldn't be like Doxman.

1071
00:42:25,518 --> 00:42:25,738
Whatever.

1072
00:42:26,518 --> 00:42:27,198
I don't know.

1073
00:42:27,498 --> 00:42:28,178
Play with that later.

1074
00:42:28,419 --> 00:42:28,598
Yeah, okay.

1075
00:42:30,078 --> 00:42:40,919
But anyway, I paid the bill at this restaurant using my Strike app on my phone, which is connected to a U.S. bank.

1076
00:42:40,919 --> 00:42:43,618
I had a US dollar balance in Strike

1077
00:42:43,618 --> 00:42:45,718
and I just typed in

1078
00:42:45,718 --> 00:42:47,578
the local phone number

1079
00:42:47,578 --> 00:42:48,838
of this restaurant

1080
00:42:48,838 --> 00:42:51,678
I didn't have to know anything about the local currency

1081
00:42:51,678 --> 00:42:53,298
or the mobile payment

1082
00:42:53,298 --> 00:42:55,158
technology or mechanism or anything

1083
00:42:55,158 --> 00:42:57,298
I just typed in the phone number and it actually made the payment

1084
00:42:57,298 --> 00:42:58,138
and it went from

1085
00:42:58,138 --> 00:43:01,298
strike to the

1086
00:43:01,298 --> 00:43:02,218
lightning network

1087
00:43:02,218 --> 00:43:05,078
so there was a

1088
00:43:05,078 --> 00:43:06,959
bitcoin to dollar exchange

1089
00:43:06,959 --> 00:43:08,278
that Strike had

1090
00:43:08,278 --> 00:43:11,238
kind of real time. Yep. I mean, Strike made all this happen and now

1091
00:43:11,238 --> 00:43:16,318
Blockhead as well. So there's a dollar to Bitcoin exchange.

1092
00:43:16,598 --> 00:43:19,878
It goes out over the Lightning Network to another exchange,

1093
00:43:20,038 --> 00:43:23,778
which then converts it back to a local currency,

1094
00:43:24,018 --> 00:43:28,158
which is then paid, in this case, paid over the mobile payment network in Ghana.

1095
00:43:28,358 --> 00:43:32,178
And was the Ghana merchant, they had a POS or a phone or they were

1096
00:43:32,178 --> 00:43:34,858
using Strike or how did they? No, they don't.

1097
00:43:34,858 --> 00:43:38,998
They don't need to know anything about Stripe.

1098
00:43:39,078 --> 00:43:40,378
They don't need to know anything about dollars.

1099
00:43:40,638 --> 00:43:41,738
They don't need to know anything about Bitcoin.

1100
00:43:41,998 --> 00:43:43,498
They don't need to know anything about the Lightning Network.

1101
00:43:43,678 --> 00:43:46,038
They don't need to know anything about the partners involved in all this.

1102
00:43:46,438 --> 00:43:48,238
They just receive mobile payments on their phone,

1103
00:43:48,338 --> 00:43:51,558
which is common in Ghana to use a mobile payment.

1104
00:43:51,618 --> 00:43:52,798
All right, I'm just going to give a quick shout out.

1105
00:43:52,978 --> 00:43:54,738
Or Matthew's saying he'll test it.

1106
00:43:54,898 --> 00:43:55,398
Let's fuck it.

1107
00:43:55,438 --> 00:43:55,978
Let's do it live.

1108
00:43:56,458 --> 00:43:57,218
Max A. Webster.

1109
00:43:57,558 --> 00:43:58,278
I want to see if this works.

1110
00:43:59,758 --> 00:44:02,878
And if, tell me, oh, damn, my bro's on it.

1111
00:44:02,878 --> 00:44:06,498
I'm curious to hear which wallet you sent that from too.

1112
00:44:06,658 --> 00:44:07,718
I'll tell you if I get it.

1113
00:44:08,118 --> 00:44:10,218
Well, I'm guessing he sent it from Cash App.

1114
00:44:10,318 --> 00:44:12,338
No, but Cash App to Cash App, that would be lame.

1115
00:44:12,398 --> 00:44:14,978
It needs to be an external wallet to prove a point.

1116
00:44:15,238 --> 00:44:15,439
Okay.

1117
00:44:15,618 --> 00:44:16,078
I'll let you know.

1118
00:44:16,078 --> 00:44:16,798
So while we're waiting for this,

1119
00:44:16,939 --> 00:44:21,338
there's somebody in Ghana who has to be able to receive

1120
00:44:21,338 --> 00:44:23,838
the Lightning payment and convert it to local currency?

1121
00:44:24,439 --> 00:44:25,198
Who does that?

1122
00:44:26,058 --> 00:44:29,618
I figured out this Bitnob or just a company I can exchange.

1123
00:44:30,078 --> 00:44:32,038
But it's somebody that the...

1124
00:44:32,038 --> 00:44:32,718
Strike partner.

1125
00:44:32,718 --> 00:44:36,218
So, the merchant knows that they've engaged with this?

1126
00:44:36,598 --> 00:44:38,178
No, the merchant doesn't need to know.

1127
00:44:38,298 --> 00:44:43,258
The merchant literally just receives money on the mobile payment mechanism that's local to that country.

1128
00:44:43,378 --> 00:44:43,518
Okay.

1129
00:44:43,678 --> 00:44:45,178
They don't have to know anything about Lightning Network.

1130
00:44:45,818 --> 00:44:46,078
Great.

1131
00:44:47,838 --> 00:44:52,138
I guess, what's confusing about that?

1132
00:44:52,178 --> 00:44:52,778
All right.

1133
00:44:52,938 --> 00:44:53,778
Yo, I got it.

1134
00:44:54,218 --> 00:44:55,018
That worked.

1135
00:44:55,438 --> 00:44:57,118
Matthew, what did you send that from?

1136
00:44:57,698 --> 00:44:58,218
I was from Canada.

1137
00:44:58,218 --> 00:44:59,238
Oh, Phoenix in Canada.

1138
00:44:59,518 --> 00:44:59,718
Yeah.

1139
00:45:00,358 --> 00:45:02,138
Motherfucker, dude, that's crazy.

1140
00:45:02,138 --> 00:45:12,678
yeah bro wait i gotta know though um i got 94 cents 0.0000001 btc with zero fees is that

1141
00:45:12,678 --> 00:45:18,558
correct that's what you said there was no fee paid whatsoever he sent 500 bitcoin oh bro shit

1142
00:45:18,558 --> 00:45:21,939
i'm gonna start giving all my cash all right yeah let's go we're gonna make this is how this show

1143
00:45:21,939 --> 00:45:30,118
value for value we need a big sign back here with um a bitcoin address and i'm also just gonna throw

1144
00:45:30,118 --> 00:45:32,218
out, remember, a reminder, Alex

1145
00:45:32,218 --> 00:45:33,658
and Ashi, we should chat about this later,

1146
00:45:34,238 --> 00:45:36,078
you know, people are still trying to stream

1147
00:45:36,078 --> 00:45:38,118
us money on Fountain and Officer. We gotta get that

1148
00:45:38,118 --> 00:45:40,038
stuff set up. And now, now that I'm starting

1149
00:45:40,038 --> 00:45:42,278
to get it coming in while we're on the show, I see the power

1150
00:45:42,278 --> 00:45:44,118
of value for value. We gotta follow up

1151
00:45:44,118 --> 00:45:46,138
on that. Bye. Yeah, so this is

1152
00:45:46,138 --> 00:45:47,718
amazing and powerful, right?

1153
00:45:47,958 --> 00:45:49,778
Oh, good enough. Let's go.

1154
00:45:50,038 --> 00:45:51,598
Alright. I like it.

1155
00:45:51,978 --> 00:45:54,118
Okay. A one cent fee.

1156
00:45:54,438 --> 00:45:55,858
Pretty awesome. Yeah. So,

1157
00:45:56,058 --> 00:45:58,198
should we

1158
00:45:58,198 --> 00:46:00,038
keep diving into how that works

1159
00:46:00,038 --> 00:46:01,919
or not? I mean, it sounds like it's

1160
00:46:01,919 --> 00:46:03,778
trivial. It goes from strikes

1161
00:46:03,778 --> 00:46:05,898
in this specific

1162
00:46:05,898 --> 00:46:08,158
case, I had strike on my phone.

1163
00:46:08,459 --> 00:46:09,998
I had a US dollar balance because I

1164
00:46:09,998 --> 00:46:11,778
connected strike to a US

1165
00:46:11,778 --> 00:46:13,618
bank. And then

1166
00:46:13,618 --> 00:46:15,598
I typed in

1167
00:46:15,598 --> 00:46:18,158
the amount I wanted to pay

1168
00:46:18,158 --> 00:46:20,278
in the local

1169
00:46:20,278 --> 00:46:22,198
currency. And so

1170
00:46:22,198 --> 00:46:23,959
I had to pick the local currency and I typed in

1171
00:46:23,959 --> 00:46:26,038
the mobile phone number for that restaurant.

1172
00:46:26,038 --> 00:46:27,518
That's all I had to type in. Hit return.

1173
00:46:27,718 --> 00:46:29,858
Hit the button. Oh, shit.

1174
00:46:30,038 --> 00:46:44,218
They then, Strike, took dollars from my account, used an exchange partner of theirs to convert it to Bitcoin, sent it over the Lightning Network to an exchange in Ghana, who they had partnered with.

1175
00:46:44,218 --> 00:46:45,538
They had partnered with.

1176
00:46:45,638 --> 00:46:45,758
Okay.

1177
00:46:45,919 --> 00:46:46,038
Yep.

1178
00:46:46,558 --> 00:46:54,158
Who then converted it into local Ghana currency and sent it to this mobile phone number using their network and technology.

1179
00:46:54,398 --> 00:46:55,939
And that's why the restaurant didn't even know anything about it.

1180
00:46:55,939 --> 00:46:58,538
By the time it gets from strike to the local partner,

1181
00:46:58,758 --> 00:47:01,578
that's that conversion then happens at local partner and everything else

1182
00:47:01,578 --> 00:47:02,499
works as it.

1183
00:47:02,638 --> 00:47:02,778
Yeah.

1184
00:47:03,038 --> 00:47:03,178
Yeah.

1185
00:47:03,318 --> 00:47:03,658
So that,

1186
00:47:03,718 --> 00:47:04,959
that existed three years ago.

1187
00:47:06,518 --> 00:47:07,338
As I don't,

1188
00:47:07,419 --> 00:47:09,558
we don't need to read the last comment.

1189
00:47:11,558 --> 00:47:12,138
Thank y'all.

1190
00:47:12,238 --> 00:47:12,419
I got,

1191
00:47:12,459 --> 00:47:12,638
I got,

1192
00:47:12,638 --> 00:47:13,778
I got a lot of y'all coming in now.

1193
00:47:13,818 --> 00:47:14,198
This is,

1194
00:47:14,298 --> 00:47:15,118
this is guys.

1195
00:47:15,118 --> 00:47:16,218
We should be doing this forever.

1196
00:47:16,398 --> 00:47:16,999
And by the way,

1197
00:47:16,999 --> 00:47:17,778
I agree with Matthew.

1198
00:47:17,818 --> 00:47:19,098
We got to get zap streams set up too.

1199
00:47:19,098 --> 00:47:19,538
Like this is,

1200
00:47:19,618 --> 00:47:20,538
there's a real potential here.

1201
00:47:20,798 --> 00:47:23,838
We could fund the Presidio Bitcoin one day from value for value.

1202
00:47:23,999 --> 00:47:24,479
That's my goal.

1203
00:47:24,818 --> 00:47:25,058
Yes.

1204
00:47:25,939 --> 00:47:32,078
all right miles is literally calling me right now so i hope i didn't say something that

1205
00:47:32,078 --> 00:47:42,917
that i shouldn have don do that um oh shit okay so um okay so that on lightning Yeah it you And a lot of people are Been there for A lot of them are having

1206
00:47:42,917 --> 00:47:43,697
a similar observation.

1207
00:47:43,977 --> 00:47:45,597
A lot of people on social media

1208
00:47:45,597 --> 00:47:46,777
are having a similar observation

1209
00:47:46,777 --> 00:47:47,777
as Max, which is like,

1210
00:47:48,117 --> 00:47:49,697
this might have been

1211
00:47:49,697 --> 00:47:51,117
the biggest announcement of all.

1212
00:47:51,397 --> 00:47:51,677
Ever, ever.

1213
00:47:52,457 --> 00:47:54,957
I know Lalu thought it was,

1214
00:47:55,357 --> 00:47:56,297
you know, he actually called it

1215
00:47:56,297 --> 00:47:56,937
the biggest announcement

1216
00:47:56,937 --> 00:47:57,697
in Bitcoin's history,

1217
00:47:57,817 --> 00:47:59,057
just that specific thing.

1218
00:47:59,237 --> 00:47:59,497
I agree.

1219
00:47:59,777 --> 00:48:00,357
And it gets...

1220
00:48:00,357 --> 00:48:01,977
This week.

1221
00:48:02,117 --> 00:48:02,717
Yeah.

1222
00:48:03,217 --> 00:48:06,477
Because actually, Matthew just demonstrated it, right?

1223
00:48:06,537 --> 00:48:07,237
He's in Canada.

1224
00:48:07,657 --> 00:48:09,957
Because we just disrupted every payment network on the planet, bro.

1225
00:48:10,037 --> 00:48:15,457
He used Phoenix, and he sent a small amount of money.

1226
00:48:16,697 --> 00:48:17,597
And not just Matthew, bro.

1227
00:48:17,677 --> 00:48:19,637
I've been getting it from Rom, Matthew.

1228
00:48:19,977 --> 00:48:21,857
So that's Vinny, everybody.

1229
00:48:22,117 --> 00:48:25,877
That's Bitcoin, but you can also do dollars as well.

1230
00:48:26,177 --> 00:48:28,137
Instant final settlement, not credit-based.

1231
00:48:28,137 --> 00:48:31,757
I mean, not with Phoenix, but like Cash App can send dollars.

1232
00:48:32,117 --> 00:48:36,697
So you can have a dollar balance, send it to someone else with a Bitcoin wallet,

1233
00:48:36,797 --> 00:48:38,097
and they receive Bitcoin.

1234
00:48:38,377 --> 00:48:40,137
I mean, my big question is, I mean, I wouldn't want to be,

1235
00:48:40,317 --> 00:48:43,157
I mean, not to go too deep in all this, but like, you know,

1236
00:48:43,237 --> 00:48:44,897
let's use Western Union.

1237
00:48:45,137 --> 00:48:47,417
Like, what the hell are the Western Union's in the world going to do?

1238
00:48:47,437 --> 00:48:49,717
Are they going to embrace this or fight it or whatever?

1239
00:48:49,837 --> 00:48:51,657
I mean, that to me is, that's the real story.

1240
00:48:51,857 --> 00:48:55,077
What did Eastman Kodak do when Instagram came about?

1241
00:48:55,157 --> 00:48:55,617
It just died.

1242
00:48:56,197 --> 00:48:57,657
You can't necessarily always embrace it.

1243
00:48:57,657 --> 00:48:59,797
you kind of sometimes have to play a new game.

1244
00:49:01,797 --> 00:49:05,717
Also announced by Cash App is stablecoin support.

1245
00:49:06,217 --> 00:49:07,557
Yeah, now what's going on with all this?

1246
00:49:07,957 --> 00:49:09,377
So I don't think it's available.

1247
00:49:09,477 --> 00:49:11,957
I think they said it'll be available maybe in January

1248
00:49:11,957 --> 00:49:13,377
or like coming soon.

1249
00:49:13,817 --> 00:49:14,217
On Solana.

1250
00:49:15,397 --> 00:49:17,257
Yeah, so we can talk.

1251
00:49:17,977 --> 00:49:19,457
Okay, we'll talk a little bit.

1252
00:49:19,577 --> 00:49:21,517
There's still so much more to talk about like Bitcoin,

1253
00:49:21,517 --> 00:49:22,557
but we'll touch on this.

1254
00:49:25,737 --> 00:49:26,457
Let's see.

1255
00:49:26,457 --> 00:49:27,917
Well, on Solana, like, okay.

1256
00:49:28,457 --> 00:49:29,157
It's got adoption.

1257
00:49:29,337 --> 00:49:29,677
I get it.

1258
00:49:29,837 --> 00:49:29,977
Yeah.

1259
00:49:30,057 --> 00:49:31,417
I mean, which people use it?

1260
00:49:32,197 --> 00:49:33,157
Which one would you pick?

1261
00:49:33,237 --> 00:49:33,437
Right.

1262
00:49:33,697 --> 00:49:35,777
I mean, I can't criticize any answer you have.

1263
00:49:36,177 --> 00:49:37,117
No, I get it.

1264
00:49:37,377 --> 00:49:38,597
I'm not saying it's the wrong move.

1265
00:49:38,837 --> 00:49:39,437
It's probably the right.

1266
00:49:39,577 --> 00:49:43,477
Ethereum or base or Tron or Solana or Taproot assets or Spark.

1267
00:49:43,657 --> 00:49:44,557
I mean, there's all these options.

1268
00:49:44,677 --> 00:49:45,017
But not Spark.

1269
00:49:46,617 --> 00:49:50,797
There's no, that it's some, we didn't even get it right when we announced it on the show.

1270
00:49:50,897 --> 00:49:55,557
Like it's using some dollar token that we weren't unaware of.

1271
00:49:55,557 --> 00:49:58,537
I thought it was like the third or fourth ranked one,

1272
00:49:58,597 --> 00:50:00,357
but it's one that no one's ever heard of.

1273
00:50:00,357 --> 00:50:01,977
I hear you, and I get you're the user.

1274
00:50:02,097 --> 00:50:03,237
I'm the user also on Solana.

1275
00:50:03,517 --> 00:50:04,317
It's just for dollars.

1276
00:50:04,617 --> 00:50:06,997
I'm not criticizing, but I do think that should be a challenge.

1277
00:50:07,877 --> 00:50:10,477
If Lalu is listening or the homies at Spark,

1278
00:50:10,657 --> 00:50:11,897
let's get that off Solana.

1279
00:50:12,977 --> 00:50:16,697
Well, I have no doubt David Marcus is working his ass off.

1280
00:50:16,717 --> 00:50:17,257
I know he is.

1281
00:50:17,377 --> 00:50:18,717
To get Tether, USDC, etc.

1282
00:50:18,837 --> 00:50:19,837
But even when they do,

1283
00:50:20,057 --> 00:50:22,337
I'm more and more convinced Bitcoin's going to win.

1284
00:50:22,637 --> 00:50:24,137
It's a payment game over stable coins.

1285
00:50:24,137 --> 00:50:26,237
because, and we've talked about this show,

1286
00:50:26,317 --> 00:50:29,837
but the fragmentation is going to be horrible.

1287
00:50:30,877 --> 00:50:33,077
And with Bitcoin, you get this amazing...

1288
00:50:33,077 --> 00:50:34,377
Internet of money, intranets.

1289
00:50:34,377 --> 00:50:35,937
You've picked with a solution.

1290
00:50:36,417 --> 00:50:36,517
All day.

1291
00:50:36,717 --> 00:50:39,957
So I talked to a friend who was an exec at Visa

1292
00:50:39,957 --> 00:50:42,217
and now spends a lot of time on stable coins.

1293
00:50:42,897 --> 00:50:44,297
And I happened to be on the phone with him yesterday.

1294
00:50:44,537 --> 00:50:46,317
And he's just like, oh, he's like, yeah,

1295
00:50:46,317 --> 00:50:48,957
the details of like Sol or Base or whatever.

1296
00:50:49,037 --> 00:50:49,737
It's like, that doesn't work.

1297
00:50:49,837 --> 00:50:50,957
That's going away.

1298
00:50:51,537 --> 00:50:54,017
Bridge and all these other, like, that's going to be solved.

1299
00:50:54,137 --> 00:50:56,077
So don't waste any time on it.

1300
00:50:56,877 --> 00:50:58,937
So I think there's a little bit of criticism

1301
00:50:58,937 --> 00:51:00,537
over choosing Solana.

1302
00:51:00,677 --> 00:51:01,597
I think that's ridiculous.

1303
00:51:02,117 --> 00:51:02,837
I don't think it's criticism.

1304
00:51:03,057 --> 00:51:05,157
I think that's a challenge to us as Bitcoiners

1305
00:51:05,157 --> 00:51:06,277
if we want the internet value.

1306
00:51:06,437 --> 00:51:08,057
I don't view Solana as the long-term answer

1307
00:51:08,057 --> 00:51:09,057
because it's an intranet.

1308
00:51:09,337 --> 00:51:11,697
But there's a large segment of Bitcoiners

1309
00:51:11,697 --> 00:51:13,917
who don't want stable coins on Bitcoin.

1310
00:51:14,937 --> 00:51:15,137
Totally.

1311
00:51:15,357 --> 00:51:17,037
And there's valid reasons for that too.

1312
00:51:17,037 --> 00:51:19,277
I don't have a strong position on it,

1313
00:51:19,337 --> 00:51:21,297
but I can definitely argue either side.

1314
00:51:22,197 --> 00:51:22,497
I get it.

1315
00:51:22,497 --> 00:51:25,877
But I think in the short term, it makes sense to like, because it's a regulated institution

1316
00:51:25,877 --> 00:51:27,237
to be able to market between those.

1317
00:51:27,317 --> 00:51:32,557
But like one day I would like to see like there's instant swaps between dollar value.

1318
00:51:32,637 --> 00:51:36,937
And maybe that's like, by the way, I was very impressed with Tony's presentation last night

1319
00:51:36,937 --> 00:51:39,357
thinking about doing sort of like stable coins.

1320
00:51:39,357 --> 00:51:43,097
I almost call what he was doing was like using lighten channels to create synthetic dollars,

1321
00:51:43,477 --> 00:51:44,917
like a contracts for difference platform.

1322
00:51:45,037 --> 00:51:45,757
I think that was really cool.

1323
00:51:45,837 --> 00:51:47,957
And there's a lot of things we could experiment with here.

1324
00:51:47,957 --> 00:51:50,657
but I think anything that is an intranet

1325
00:51:50,657 --> 00:51:52,717
one day you have to rely

1326
00:51:52,717 --> 00:51:54,517
on a company to be there to market make on that

1327
00:51:54,517 --> 00:51:55,857
I would love to see that

1328
00:51:55,857 --> 00:51:58,617
move into the internet. But it may help to start with

1329
00:51:58,617 --> 00:52:00,677
these proprietary networks as long as they don't

1330
00:52:00,677 --> 00:52:02,557
get to be dominant as long as there's a path

1331
00:52:02,557 --> 00:52:03,937
where they're not going to be able to

1332
00:52:03,937 --> 00:52:05,897
ultimately dominate the system

1333
00:52:05,897 --> 00:52:08,137
then great like we needed AOL

1334
00:52:08,137 --> 00:52:09,857
or we didn't need but like a lot of

1335
00:52:09,857 --> 00:52:12,377
first experiences were CompuServe

1336
00:52:12,377 --> 00:52:14,297
Prodigy AOL before you had

1337
00:52:14,297 --> 00:52:15,177
AOL yeah I agree

1338
00:52:15,177 --> 00:52:18,837
the internet access very accessible to a lot of people.

1339
00:52:19,577 --> 00:52:24,577
So I think the interesting question is more like, well, Cash App just announced dollars

1340
00:52:24,577 --> 00:52:27,697
in Lightning and also going to support stablecoins.

1341
00:52:27,917 --> 00:52:30,617
Like, do those conflict or why do both?

1342
00:52:30,617 --> 00:52:31,017
Yeah, why?

1343
00:52:31,577 --> 00:52:32,697
So I think it's a good question.

1344
00:52:32,777 --> 00:52:33,457
So let's talk about it.

1345
00:52:34,217 --> 00:52:38,497
To me, so the dollars in Lightning, that means you can pay any other wallet that supports

1346
00:52:38,497 --> 00:52:41,277
Bolt 11 invoices in the future Bolt 12.

1347
00:52:41,437 --> 00:52:43,157
But like, you know, Lightning payment protocol.

1348
00:52:43,157 --> 00:52:45,657
and so

1349
00:52:45,657 --> 00:52:47,637
that's a bunch of wallets

1350
00:52:47,637 --> 00:52:50,017
windbolt 69

1351
00:52:50,017 --> 00:52:50,597
so

1352
00:52:50,597 --> 00:52:53,817
the question is

1353
00:52:53,817 --> 00:52:55,357
how many wallets are out there

1354
00:52:55,357 --> 00:52:57,997
that support USDC and Solana

1355
00:52:57,997 --> 00:52:59,777
that don't support Lightning

1356
00:52:59,777 --> 00:53:01,177
that

1357
00:53:01,177 --> 00:53:03,137
the size of that

1358
00:53:03,137 --> 00:53:06,297
sorry

1359
00:53:06,297 --> 00:53:07,777
the size of that market

1360
00:53:07,777 --> 00:53:09,977
is why cash app

1361
00:53:09,977 --> 00:53:12,257
should support USDC

1362
00:53:12,257 --> 00:53:13,437
on Solana. And I don't know

1363
00:53:13,437 --> 00:53:16,017
what the Venn diagram... I mean, there's a set

1364
00:53:16,017 --> 00:53:17,997
of wallets that support USDC

1365
00:53:17,997 --> 00:53:19,417
and Solana. Yeah, it's totally fine.

1366
00:53:19,857 --> 00:53:20,477
It's totally fine.

1367
00:53:20,897 --> 00:53:22,717
Support all the above.

1368
00:53:22,917 --> 00:53:25,517
I mean, it's an interesting discussion.

1369
00:53:25,777 --> 00:53:26,677
So, okay.

1370
00:53:28,137 --> 00:53:29,917
Imagine a circle of here's

1371
00:53:29,917 --> 00:53:31,917
the size of all the users that support

1372
00:53:31,917 --> 00:53:33,617
their wallet supports USDC on

1373
00:53:33,617 --> 00:53:35,877
Solana. There's another circle,

1374
00:53:36,817 --> 00:53:37,917
Lightning. There's other

1375
00:53:37,917 --> 00:53:39,197
circles for the

1376
00:53:39,197 --> 00:53:41,757
dozens, if not hundreds, of other combinations of

1377
00:53:41,757 --> 00:53:43,797
stable coins. So CashApp will

1378
00:53:43,797 --> 00:53:45,857
support two of these circles.

1379
00:53:46,397 --> 00:53:47,777
They overlap to some

1380
00:53:47,777 --> 00:53:49,797
extent, and I don't know how much

1381
00:53:49,797 --> 00:53:50,977
they overlap. A lot.

1382
00:53:51,737 --> 00:53:53,937
Well, then why support USDC

1383
00:53:53,937 --> 00:53:55,577
and Solana if they overlap a lot?

1384
00:53:55,717 --> 00:53:57,097
Because it already supports Lightning.

1385
00:53:58,017 --> 00:53:59,377
I don't know the answer.

1386
00:53:59,657 --> 00:54:01,977
But I actually, I suspect there's

1387
00:54:01,977 --> 00:54:03,697
if you look at like Phantom and

1388
00:54:03,697 --> 00:54:05,617
Trust Wallet and stuff like that, there's probably a bunch that

1389
00:54:05,617 --> 00:54:07,857
do support USDC and Solana that do not support

1390
00:54:07,857 --> 00:54:09,237
Lightning yet. So

1391
00:54:09,237 --> 00:54:11,457
CashApp can now pay those wallets.

1392
00:54:11,757 --> 00:54:13,177
and receive from those wallets.

1393
00:54:13,577 --> 00:54:15,037
But there's all these other circles

1394
00:54:15,037 --> 00:54:16,557
with other stablecoin pairs

1395
00:54:16,557 --> 00:54:18,417
that Cash App won't be interoperable with.

1396
00:54:18,617 --> 00:54:20,157
And it's just kind of a disaster

1397
00:54:20,157 --> 00:54:21,177
trying to support all of them.

1398
00:54:21,477 --> 00:54:23,437
I mean, to your friend's point,

1399
00:54:23,497 --> 00:54:24,957
I mean, that's why Bridge and others exist

1400
00:54:24,957 --> 00:54:27,197
to try to like abstract that.

1401
00:54:27,637 --> 00:54:30,037
It's really hard to do for self-custody wallets.

1402
00:54:30,137 --> 00:54:31,157
Easier for custodial though.

1403
00:54:31,237 --> 00:54:32,297
So we'll see how that plays out.

1404
00:54:32,417 --> 00:54:35,737
But to the degree that Lightning payment protocol

1405
00:54:35,737 --> 00:54:37,197
is broadly adopted,

1406
00:54:37,817 --> 00:54:39,237
honestly, the stablecoin stuff

1407
00:54:39,237 --> 00:54:40,397
can literally just go away.

1408
00:54:40,397 --> 00:54:47,337
you can just like you use regular dollars on trad fi you'd like your network to uh transport it

1409
00:54:47,337 --> 00:54:51,857
i mean i think the big thing is international too right which block is obviously still in the u.s for

1410
00:54:51,857 --> 00:54:55,857
now but eventually if block wants to move internationally we've talked about some of the

1411
00:54:55,857 --> 00:55:00,917
potential bitcoin opens up for that maybe that's the reason so i'm going to talk a little bit about

1412
00:55:00,917 --> 00:55:06,797
my own team and what spiral did this week uh i think what we did was uh you know small mighty team

1413
00:55:06,797 --> 00:55:08,797
Shout out to Haley, Ken, and Matt.

1414
00:55:10,117 --> 00:55:13,157
And in some ways what we did is small,

1415
00:55:13,237 --> 00:55:15,437
but I think the ROI can be huge.

1416
00:55:15,577 --> 00:55:18,157
So let me explain why I think it can have a huge ROI.

1417
00:55:19,517 --> 00:55:22,357
So I already talked about a couple of components of it,

1418
00:55:22,417 --> 00:55:24,117
but we felt it's very important.

1419
00:55:24,697 --> 00:55:28,037
Number one, an asset that Bitcoin has

1420
00:55:28,037 --> 00:55:31,157
that stable coins and corporations don't have

1421
00:55:31,157 --> 00:55:32,377
is the Bitcoin army.

1422
00:55:32,757 --> 00:55:34,137
A rabid group of people

1423
00:55:34,137 --> 00:55:36,617
who want to will Bitcoin in the world

1424
00:55:36,617 --> 00:55:39,617
including willing Bitcoin payments into the world.

1425
00:55:40,037 --> 00:55:41,977
And we're already seeing that at Presidia Bitcoin.

1426
00:55:42,597 --> 00:55:49,517
Numerous members here are out, you know, convincing local merchants to accept Bitcoin, spending Bitcoin.

1427
00:55:50,157 --> 00:55:51,617
And we're seeing that worldwide.

1428
00:55:52,357 --> 00:55:55,117
Look at BTC map, it being populated just this week, right?

1429
00:55:55,217 --> 00:55:56,537
So we have the Bitcoin army.

1430
00:55:56,817 --> 00:56:01,817
Imagine, imagine like the Stripe Tempo army.

1431
00:56:01,817 --> 00:56:10,417
there's not going to be a stripe tempo army unless stripe pays people to do it right so here you can

1432
00:56:10,417 --> 00:56:16,477
have bitcoin as a volunteer army i i also think it's just worth pausing here and like this something

1433
00:56:16,477 --> 00:56:21,717
i wish i had said at the silicon valley whatever startup unite last night like for all of you guys

1434
00:56:21,717 --> 00:56:28,257
who have joined you know the ranks of the stripe tempo army or the whatever blockchain is hot army

1435
00:56:28,257 --> 00:56:36,497
I know there's some short-term cash, but let me just tell you, you don't know how good it feels to be part of the mission.

1436
00:56:37,137 --> 00:56:37,537
You know what I'm saying?

1437
00:56:37,917 --> 00:56:44,097
Doesn't it feel just sweet, like just the juice you get from seeing someone join the revolution, be part of the squad?

1438
00:56:44,477 --> 00:56:47,817
No amount of money will ever satisfy that primal desire.

1439
00:56:47,937 --> 00:56:48,897
It's not too late to join us.

1440
00:56:49,377 --> 00:56:49,397
Yeah.

1441
00:56:49,577 --> 00:56:55,537
Well, I mean, anyone in Bitcoin who's gone to a Bitcoin event feels that energy around the people that are at the event.

1442
00:56:55,537 --> 00:56:57,977
Here at Presidio Bitcoin, we felt it for a year now.

1443
00:56:58,257 --> 00:57:01,297
Like, just our community here continues to grow.

1444
00:57:01,477 --> 00:57:04,397
We have, like, more than two dozen members now that come in regularly.

1445
00:57:04,597 --> 00:57:06,277
We have tons of visitors that flow through here.

1446
00:57:06,497 --> 00:57:12,257
And we're all supportive of each other, even though everyone works for a different organization and has their own, like,

1447
00:57:12,997 --> 00:57:16,017
best interest and everything.

1448
00:57:16,197 --> 00:57:18,877
But, like, the common bond is converted from shitcoins, too.

1449
00:57:19,517 --> 00:57:24,477
It's like you can go the Stripe shitcoin path, which is the path of nihilism, where you can have meaning.

1450
00:57:24,797 --> 00:57:25,897
Just trust me.

1451
00:57:25,997 --> 00:57:26,857
Come try the meaning.

1452
00:57:26,857 --> 00:57:29,237
So we have the Bitcoin army.

1453
00:57:30,117 --> 00:57:41,117
One thing that anyone has tried to convert a merchant, as I think we already mentioned, but like if you go into merchants that enable Bitcoin payments on Square, number one, they're often quite busy, right?

1454
00:57:41,237 --> 00:57:44,017
They don't have time to talk to you, even if it's something simple like that.

1455
00:57:44,337 --> 00:57:55,117
Two, you're often talking to someone who's not the owner or the decision maker or even has the access to the Square UI to turn on Bitcoin payments.

1456
00:57:55,117 --> 00:57:59,177
so you're often left in a situation where then you just have to like

1457
00:57:59,177 --> 00:58:02,837
you leave and you didn't really make any meaningful progress

1458
00:58:02,837 --> 00:58:05,957
towards your goal of having them turn on Bitcoin payments

1459
00:58:05,957 --> 00:58:10,397
so we felt it was really important we spiral that there is a high quality

1460
00:58:10,397 --> 00:58:14,737
leave behind like a sheet of paper with a clear simple

1461
00:58:14,737 --> 00:58:18,857
message that you can leave behind and say hey when you have time please take a look at this

1462
00:58:18,857 --> 00:58:22,097
or can you please give this to the owner and have them look at it

1463
00:58:22,097 --> 00:58:38,577
So we created that. The message is simple. It focuses on the fees. We already talked about that. But, you know, it doesn't. Bitcoiners might not instinctively realize this, but don't talk about censorship resistance or any of the seven qualities of money in the history of money. Merchants don't care about that.

1464
00:58:38,577 --> 00:58:40,297
But have you heard about the creature from Jekyll Island?

1465
00:58:40,397 --> 00:58:42,197
They might. They'll eventually go on the Bitcoin.

1466
00:58:42,277 --> 00:58:43,097
That happened in 1971.

1467
00:58:43,297 --> 00:58:44,317
Yeah, what was that in 1971?

1468
00:58:44,397 --> 00:58:48,917
Oh, right. They'll eventually go on that journey.

1469
00:58:48,917 --> 00:58:49,437
Andrew Jackson was right.

1470
00:58:49,437 --> 00:58:52,437
but what they care about today is fees.

1471
00:58:52,837 --> 00:58:54,777
So this one pager focuses on that.

1472
00:58:54,957 --> 00:58:55,357
Very simple.

1473
00:58:55,577 --> 00:58:56,097
Figure out the audience.

1474
00:58:56,137 --> 00:58:58,157
There's two versions of this one pager.

1475
00:58:58,377 --> 00:58:59,817
One is like pretty standard.

1476
00:59:00,077 --> 00:59:01,137
Anyone can use.

1477
00:59:01,257 --> 00:59:03,777
The other has is like plushy

1478
00:59:03,777 --> 00:59:06,957
and like itty bitty inspired this character.

1479
00:59:08,457 --> 00:59:10,397
So if you're if you like the character,

1480
00:59:10,517 --> 00:59:11,917
you think that's a fun, cute way

1481
00:59:11,917 --> 00:59:12,997
to strike up a conversation.

1482
00:59:12,997 --> 00:59:13,917
You go that path.

1483
00:59:14,177 --> 00:59:15,877
If you think it's weird and it's not for you

1484
00:59:15,877 --> 00:59:17,137
or you don't think it's going to be for the merchant,

1485
00:59:17,237 --> 00:59:18,017
that's cool, too.

1486
00:59:18,017 --> 00:59:32,917
We have a more standard version, but we have both of those on pagers freely available to download off the website, BitcoinMerchantCommunity.org, and print out, do-it-yourself print out and use.

1487
00:59:33,117 --> 00:59:37,617
We also have printed out on really high-quality paper stock.

1488
00:59:37,697 --> 00:59:38,797
And it's orange, which is nice.

1489
00:59:38,797 --> 00:59:40,197
in Orange,

1490
00:59:40,797 --> 00:59:41,777
although I'll get into

1491
00:59:41,777 --> 00:59:42,957
some snafus with launch,

1492
00:59:43,117 --> 00:59:43,797
but like Orange

1493
00:59:43,797 --> 00:59:46,257
and we're distributing that

1494
00:59:46,257 --> 00:59:48,957
to six different hubs

1495
00:59:48,957 --> 00:59:49,677
around the US,

1496
00:59:49,797 --> 00:59:50,537
like Bitcoin hubs.

1497
00:59:50,897 --> 00:59:54,557
Austin, Nashville, Atlanta, Denver,

1498
00:59:54,957 --> 00:59:55,977
here at PresidioBitcoin,

1499
00:59:56,497 --> 00:59:58,557
and then Kansas City came.

1500
00:59:58,857 --> 00:59:59,137
Kansas.

1501
00:59:59,537 --> 01:00:00,617
Kansas City came.

1502
01:00:01,617 --> 01:00:02,957
People from Kansas City

1503
01:00:02,957 --> 01:00:04,157
are like, we want this too.

1504
01:00:04,317 --> 01:00:04,977
Where's New York?

1505
01:00:05,717 --> 01:00:07,597
New York doesn't support.

1506
01:00:07,797 --> 01:00:08,617
Square doesn't support it.

1507
01:00:08,797 --> 01:00:09,217
For real?

1508
01:00:09,417 --> 01:00:10,517
Probably a bit licensed stuff.

1509
01:00:10,757 --> 01:00:10,897
Yeah.

1510
01:00:11,277 --> 01:00:11,677
Dude.

1511
01:00:12,377 --> 01:00:13,797
Not allowed.

1512
01:00:13,917 --> 01:00:14,417
It's not allowed to.

1513
01:00:14,517 --> 01:00:15,057
That's wild.

1514
01:00:15,177 --> 01:00:15,277
Okay.

1515
01:00:16,657 --> 01:00:19,557
So, no, people from Kansas City rose up.

1516
01:00:19,677 --> 01:00:22,757
They have a guerrilla army of 10 people ready to hit the street.

1517
01:00:22,857 --> 01:00:26,177
So we're going to send them not only the one-pagers, but we're also sending them plushies.

1518
01:00:26,177 --> 01:00:33,757
So if I want to proselytize, I can come to Presidio Bitcoin, grab a stack of these things, just go out to Merch and start hand them out and tell them about it?

1519
01:00:33,837 --> 01:00:34,017
Yep.

1520
01:00:34,097 --> 01:00:35,137
We had an event last night.

1521
01:00:35,137 --> 01:00:37,497
a bunch of people came and I handed out

1522
01:00:37,497 --> 01:00:39,397
these one-pagers and plushies

1523
01:00:39,397 --> 01:00:40,577
to four different people

1524
01:00:40,577 --> 01:00:42,657
and I had conversations with them.

1525
01:00:42,837 --> 01:00:45,377
They all seemed like they're genuinely

1526
01:00:45,377 --> 01:00:47,097
going to go out and

1527
01:00:47,097 --> 01:00:48,677
try to convert merchants

1528
01:00:48,677 --> 01:00:51,477
and I was happy to.

1529
01:00:51,817 --> 01:00:53,157
Do they have to choose I'm getting

1530
01:00:53,157 --> 01:00:55,117
the serious one or the party one?

1531
01:00:56,637 --> 01:00:57,397
I think

1532
01:00:57,397 --> 01:00:59,137
we've only printed out the

1533
01:00:59,137 --> 01:01:01,157
plushie one,

1534
01:01:01,217 --> 01:01:03,177
the itty-bitty one for the hubs.

1535
01:01:03,177 --> 01:01:03,537
Got it.

1536
01:01:03,537 --> 01:01:03,717
Yeah.

1537
01:01:04,517 --> 01:01:09,077
And so, yeah, so we printed on orange paper,

1538
01:01:09,257 --> 01:01:11,417
but then we had this hiccup with the domain,

1539
01:01:11,537 --> 01:01:13,277
which we talked about at the beginning of the show.

1540
01:01:14,397 --> 01:01:18,337
So don't hand those out yet because the domain doesn't work.

1541
01:01:18,337 --> 01:01:23,317
So then we had to print out new ones with the alternative domain,

1542
01:01:23,437 --> 01:01:24,437
the one that is live.

1543
01:01:25,097 --> 01:01:28,157
This orange paper is not in stock.

1544
01:01:28,317 --> 01:01:30,597
It takes days to get it printed because it has to be ordered.

1545
01:01:30,597 --> 01:01:38,957
so yeah so to do so so we we had to like atoms man uh haley has spent a lot of time working with

1546
01:01:38,957 --> 01:01:45,317
printers this uh this week uh so now the hubs have white paper stock because we can get to them right

1547
01:01:45,317 --> 01:01:51,977
away but um on monday they should be receiving the updated orange that has the new url right on so

1548
01:01:51,977 --> 01:01:57,797
yeah if you are in any of those six cities i mentioned you can reach out to your local bitcoin

1549
01:01:57,797 --> 01:01:58,217
hub.

1550
01:02:00,037 --> 01:02:01,837
And I mean, if you're in Kansas

1551
01:02:01,837 --> 01:02:04,057
City, I think

1552
01:02:04,057 --> 01:02:05,997
he'll be okay with me saying who it is.

1553
01:02:06,057 --> 01:02:07,817
But the founder of Mana

1554
01:02:07,817 --> 01:02:09,157
Wallet, M-A-N-N-A,

1555
01:02:09,877 --> 01:02:10,537
his name's Adam.

1556
01:02:11,477 --> 01:02:12,097
I haven't heard of that.

1557
01:02:12,357 --> 01:02:15,817
I think he's rallying the troops there, so you can reach out to him.

1558
01:02:16,577 --> 01:02:17,757
But yeah, go to your local hub

1559
01:02:17,757 --> 01:02:19,197
if you happen to be in the area.

1560
01:02:19,977 --> 01:02:21,657
And if you show yourself

1561
01:02:21,657 --> 01:02:23,117
as eager and willing to go

1562
01:02:23,117 --> 01:02:25,117
get some merchants to accept Bitcoin,

1563
01:02:25,677 --> 01:02:27,677
you'll get a plushie, some

1564
01:02:27,677 --> 01:02:33,737
one-pagers and some instructions on like how to go about like, you know, guidance or best practices

1565
01:02:33,737 --> 01:02:38,097
for how to go about approaching it. Is Miles still slinging 25 bucks?

1566
01:02:38,477 --> 01:02:41,257
Yeah, I don't know if he has discontinued that. So that's an interesting thing.

1567
01:02:41,557 --> 01:02:46,557
Yeah. So, but well, sticking to what Spiral's doing, that's what Spiral's doing.

1568
01:02:47,477 --> 01:02:54,637
We also, we need to, we're already receiving feedback from people doing this, the good,

1569
01:02:54,637 --> 01:02:59,077
bad and ugly. And there's like huge successes so far, but there's also a ton of learnings

1570
01:02:59,077 --> 01:03:03,497
that we want to share with others. So we are in the midst of trying to figure out creating

1571
01:03:03,497 --> 01:03:08,797
a community, some kind of discussion forum so that people can share that feedback and

1572
01:03:08,797 --> 01:03:13,857
others can learn from it. And so we're trying to figure out what's that like, which tool

1573
01:03:13,857 --> 01:03:19,677
to use? And is there like, is it, is this a centrally controlled, like the spiral create

1574
01:03:19,677 --> 01:03:24,037
this? And then there's different channels for different regions, or is it more distributed?

1575
01:03:24,637 --> 01:03:26,337
I think you recommended Stacker News maybe.

1576
01:03:26,777 --> 01:03:28,357
Yeah, we should definitely go to Stacker News territory.

1577
01:03:28,917 --> 01:03:30,157
Yeah, definitely Stacker News or Discord.

1578
01:03:30,337 --> 01:03:32,897
I mean, support the homies.

1579
01:03:33,677 --> 01:03:33,977
We'll see.

1580
01:03:34,257 --> 01:03:35,037
Maybe, I don't know.

1581
01:03:35,117 --> 01:03:35,997
Or a master solution.

1582
01:03:36,497 --> 01:03:37,757
Yeah, but that's how it'd be built.

1583
01:03:37,857 --> 01:03:39,537
So we need to figure that out.

1584
01:03:39,537 --> 01:03:42,317
I think that's important because people want to give feedback

1585
01:03:42,317 --> 01:03:43,517
and people want to learn from that.

1586
01:03:44,157 --> 01:03:49,877
We also created a Facebook group, somewhat to my chagrin,

1587
01:03:49,977 --> 01:03:51,897
because I haven't used Facebook for a decade.

1588
01:03:52,457 --> 01:03:53,777
But it's actually super smart

1589
01:03:53,777 --> 01:03:55,477
because where are small businesses globally?

1590
01:03:56,397 --> 01:03:57,237
Facebook and WhatsApp.

1591
01:03:57,337 --> 01:03:58,457
They're on Facebook, right?

1592
01:03:59,177 --> 01:03:59,557
And WhatsApp.

1593
01:03:59,977 --> 01:04:01,837
I know Darth Coyne and Sackner News

1594
01:04:01,837 --> 01:04:02,957
thought we're total idiots.

1595
01:04:03,357 --> 01:04:05,617
He thought our one-pager was horrible copy.

1596
01:04:05,897 --> 01:04:07,717
He thought the Facebook group was stupid.

1597
01:04:08,197 --> 01:04:09,437
I don't think he knows what he's talking about.

1598
01:04:09,517 --> 01:04:12,337
Well, Darth Coyne is out there for comic relief.

1599
01:04:12,497 --> 01:04:13,617
He's not living in the real world.

1600
01:04:13,737 --> 01:04:15,297
Yeah, well, I mean, he's living in his real world,

1601
01:04:15,337 --> 01:04:16,457
which I give him respect for, but yeah.

1602
01:04:17,077 --> 01:04:18,177
But the Facebook group,

1603
01:04:18,237 --> 01:04:20,477
I mean, there's already like almost 100 merchants.

1604
01:04:20,637 --> 01:04:21,577
But the Facebook group,

1605
01:04:21,577 --> 01:04:22,577
the intention is merchant.

1606
01:04:22,577 --> 01:04:23,897
it's a merchant community.

1607
01:04:24,037 --> 01:04:25,837
So it's not like the Bitcoin army.

1608
01:04:26,377 --> 01:04:27,397
It's intended for merchants.

1609
01:04:27,877 --> 01:04:30,637
And so we seeded it with like Pink Owl and Compass Coffee

1610
01:04:30,637 --> 01:04:33,737
and a bunch of other merchants who already know,

1611
01:04:34,257 --> 01:04:35,277
they've already been through this,

1612
01:04:35,357 --> 01:04:37,137
already using Bitcoin, they know it,

1613
01:04:37,197 --> 01:04:38,677
and they can help answer questions.

1614
01:04:39,357 --> 01:04:41,257
And then new merchants can go there

1615
01:04:41,257 --> 01:04:44,657
and ask newbie questions and basic questions.

1616
01:04:44,837 --> 01:04:49,017
And we also, Joe Wood is a CPA and a Bitcoiner

1617
01:04:49,017 --> 01:04:49,936
out of Nashville.

1618
01:04:49,936 --> 01:04:51,857
He's actually the CPA for Presidio Bitcoin.

1619
01:04:52,577 --> 01:04:55,897
and the Bitcoin Design Kit Foundation.

1620
01:04:56,017 --> 01:04:56,677
That's how I know him

1621
01:04:56,677 --> 01:04:58,337
because he basically is a hardcore Bitcoin

1622
01:04:58,337 --> 01:05:00,277
or he wants to help out other Bitcoin efforts

1623
01:05:00,277 --> 01:05:01,357
and he's a CPA.

1624
01:05:01,837 --> 01:05:02,757
And he started a practice

1625
01:05:02,757 --> 01:05:03,317
and I think he's,

1626
01:05:03,497 --> 01:05:05,677
I mean, he has like a firm now basically.

1627
01:05:05,837 --> 01:05:06,897
I mean, he has like many people.

1628
01:05:07,037 --> 01:05:07,977
I think he's had 10 people.

1629
01:05:08,117 --> 01:05:08,337
I don't know.

1630
01:05:08,456 --> 01:05:08,757
Like he has,

1631
01:05:09,337 --> 01:05:11,837
so he's engaged in this Facebook group

1632
01:05:11,837 --> 01:05:13,897
because merchants are going to have tax questions too.

1633
01:05:14,077 --> 01:05:16,837
So that's awesome to have him there as a resource

1634
01:05:16,837 --> 01:05:18,436
and hopefully other CPAs

1635
01:05:18,436 --> 01:05:20,057
who are Bitcoin knowledgeable and savvy

1636
01:05:20,057 --> 01:05:21,657
join and can help out as well.

1637
01:05:21,657 --> 01:05:26,956
So just another plug for why we should do the, so yes, Facebook for like the normie merchants

1638
01:05:26,956 --> 01:05:28,017
makes total sense to me.

1639
01:05:28,936 --> 01:05:31,297
Stacker News or something like that, but I don't see anything like it.

1640
01:05:31,337 --> 01:05:34,897
So frankly, Stacker News for instead of Discord, like it's so easy.

1641
01:05:34,997 --> 01:05:36,317
Like imagine that's where the Bitcoiners are.

1642
01:05:36,817 --> 01:05:39,997
And you can just like in real time, let's say Miles wants to do another, or we want

1643
01:05:39,997 --> 01:05:42,797
to do, or whoever, whoever wants to come out and do their own bounty.

1644
01:05:43,117 --> 01:05:45,657
Maybe there's a whale who says, I'm going to put up a million dollars in cash.

1645
01:05:45,717 --> 01:05:47,317
I'm just going to like start slinging it.

1646
01:05:47,357 --> 01:05:49,077
They can just zap people directly on there.

1647
01:05:49,077 --> 01:05:52,057
So if I come, all I have to do is post a photo or video of me doing it.

1648
01:05:52,137 --> 01:05:52,477
Boom.

1649
01:05:52,677 --> 01:05:52,877
Zap.

1650
01:05:52,977 --> 01:05:53,917
25,000 sats.

1651
01:05:54,057 --> 01:05:54,956
Could be Nostra too, though.

1652
01:05:55,257 --> 01:05:55,557
Could be.

1653
01:05:55,677 --> 01:05:55,997
But like that.

1654
01:05:56,237 --> 01:05:58,557
I mean, if someone builds it, we've been asking for someone to build this for three years.

1655
01:05:58,557 --> 01:06:00,417
Just use Nostra.

1656
01:06:00,917 --> 01:06:01,717
Yeah, that's true.

1657
01:06:02,417 --> 01:06:02,517
Yeah.

1658
01:06:02,737 --> 01:06:02,857
Okay.

1659
01:06:03,117 --> 01:06:04,137
And Nostra or Sackgernism.

1660
01:06:04,277 --> 01:06:09,017
And meaning like, you know, we can socialize like a hashtag or something.

1661
01:06:09,117 --> 01:06:09,277
Yeah.

1662
01:06:09,297 --> 01:06:10,217
Something that ties it together.

1663
01:06:10,377 --> 01:06:11,077
Either way is fine with me.

1664
01:06:11,117 --> 01:06:16,637
But like, I think something where it's tied to Bitcoin because then you can see the interplay of media and money.

1665
01:06:16,936 --> 01:06:17,057
Yeah.

1666
01:06:17,057 --> 01:06:18,377
I agree with that.

1667
01:06:18,377 --> 01:06:20,557
And because of that audience is the Bitcoin army,

1668
01:06:20,697 --> 01:06:22,417
it can be something like Stacker News or Noster.

1669
01:06:22,677 --> 01:06:23,377
Yeah, I agree.

1670
01:06:24,417 --> 01:06:27,817
So another way to frame what Spiral did,

1671
01:06:28,077 --> 01:06:30,717
we created two marketing kits.

1672
01:06:30,717 --> 01:06:33,397
There's a marketing kit for the Bitcoin army,

1673
01:06:33,637 --> 01:06:36,637
which is the one pager and the plushie leave behind.

1674
01:06:37,456 --> 01:06:39,857
And just some guidance on how to go about it.

1675
01:06:40,037 --> 01:06:42,436
And we'll keep, this is an open source project.

1676
01:06:42,597 --> 01:06:45,737
I don't want this to be Spiral exclusive or Spiral only.

1677
01:06:45,737 --> 01:06:48,357
We want other contributors to help out.

1678
01:06:48,956 --> 01:06:51,797
And with the Bitcoin Army, whatever form we choose,

1679
01:06:51,877 --> 01:06:53,077
we're going to learn from that as well.

1680
01:06:53,157 --> 01:06:55,197
I've already learned a ton from D++ and Bob,

1681
01:06:55,597 --> 01:06:57,456
who have been going out doing this,

1682
01:06:57,677 --> 01:07:01,377
as well as my own firsthand examples.

1683
01:07:01,877 --> 01:07:04,557
We're going to keep learning, and we'll keep iterating on that.

1684
01:07:04,777 --> 01:07:08,097
If people are not near one of the hubs where the material can be distributed,

1685
01:07:08,217 --> 01:07:09,237
is there any way to get involved?

1686
01:07:09,337 --> 01:07:10,436
Do you just wait for now?

1687
01:07:10,617 --> 01:07:12,217
No, no. This is global availability.

1688
01:07:12,217 --> 01:07:14,757
You have to do it yourself.

1689
01:07:14,757 --> 01:07:21,917
printer, just print it out. And so I think if you have the resources to print it out on

1690
01:07:21,917 --> 01:07:27,817
higher quality paper and a better stock of paper, I think that's what we chose to do for the hubs.

1691
01:07:28,317 --> 01:07:30,657
But yeah, that's what you do if you're not near the one of the hubs.

1692
01:07:30,936 --> 01:07:35,436
Okay. So a couple of questions. One question is, I only for the first time ever last night,

1693
01:07:35,477 --> 01:07:40,277
really got to see how a square terminal works from the back end. Is there a stupid, simple video,

1694
01:07:40,277 --> 01:07:42,057
like 30 seconds where I say,

1695
01:07:42,137 --> 01:07:42,977
I'm about to,

1696
01:07:42,977 --> 01:07:44,277
so I'll give you my example.

1697
01:07:44,397 --> 01:07:45,477
I want to convert my tea ladies.

1698
01:07:45,877 --> 01:07:46,617
I'm going to do that.

1699
01:07:47,397 --> 01:07:48,657
Now, I want to go,

1700
01:07:49,197 --> 01:07:50,517
I've never seen Square from the back end.

1701
01:07:50,817 --> 01:07:52,477
Is there a video where I can just go and watch

1702
01:07:52,477 --> 01:07:53,917
like different examples?

1703
01:07:54,057 --> 01:07:54,297
Like you said,

1704
01:07:54,337 --> 01:07:55,357
there's different operating systems,

1705
01:07:55,456 --> 01:07:56,217
wherever it's just like,

1706
01:07:56,617 --> 01:07:58,357
I'm going to walk you like I'm a five-year-old

1707
01:07:58,357 --> 01:07:59,917
through what do I need to click?

1708
01:08:00,297 --> 01:08:02,117
I know Square has produced at least one video

1709
01:08:02,117 --> 01:08:04,677
that does a pretty good job,

1710
01:08:04,817 --> 01:08:07,077
but does skip some details.

1711
01:08:07,317 --> 01:08:08,477
I would say that's number one.

1712
01:08:08,497 --> 01:08:09,677
Like the KYB stuff.

1713
01:08:09,677 --> 01:08:11,037
I don't think is in that video.

1714
01:08:11,157 --> 01:08:12,257
I think maybe they're creating a new one.

1715
01:08:12,357 --> 01:08:12,677
I don't know.

1716
01:08:13,017 --> 01:08:14,317
But then there's also different Square.

1717
01:08:14,637 --> 01:08:17,737
I learned there's like five different apps

1718
01:08:17,737 --> 01:08:18,717
in the App Store from Square.

1719
01:08:19,237 --> 01:08:22,237
And apparently there's some meta Square app

1720
01:08:22,237 --> 01:08:22,977
that combines them all,

1721
01:08:23,057 --> 01:08:23,777
but there's still all the,

1722
01:08:24,177 --> 01:08:25,356
you know, there's an appointments one

1723
01:08:25,356 --> 01:08:26,097
and this and that.

1724
01:08:26,217 --> 01:08:27,316
There's so many options.

1725
01:08:27,436 --> 01:08:28,637
It doesn't even come from Square.

1726
01:08:29,077 --> 01:08:30,237
Like I would love, Bob,

1727
01:08:30,277 --> 01:08:31,457
if you're listening to this right now,

1728
01:08:31,737 --> 01:08:33,037
if you could just take a video

1729
01:08:33,037 --> 01:08:34,877
while you're converting your merchants

1730
01:08:34,877 --> 01:08:35,677
and just show like,

1731
01:08:35,737 --> 01:08:37,877
hey guys, we're doing this live in real time.

1732
01:08:37,877 --> 01:08:39,396
Maybe somebody can do this on Zapstream

1733
01:08:39,396 --> 01:08:40,816
and do the, you know, this app on,

1734
01:08:40,877 --> 01:08:42,677
but like, this is the exact button.

1735
01:08:42,777 --> 01:08:44,117
If you get this error, click this.

1736
01:08:44,177 --> 01:08:45,497
Just like, assume I'm five.

1737
01:08:46,017 --> 01:08:46,377
Maybe.

1738
01:08:46,577 --> 01:08:49,436
I mean, like when they're typing in beneficiary data,

1739
01:08:49,617 --> 01:08:51,577
they might not want that public and stuff.

1740
01:08:51,856 --> 01:08:53,837
So, but I agree with the general theme

1741
01:08:53,837 --> 01:08:55,597
and then you have to address them like-

1742
01:08:55,597 --> 01:08:56,717
Maybe somebody should make the video,

1743
01:08:56,896 --> 01:09:00,757
how to save 3% on your payment as a square merchant.

1744
01:09:00,757 --> 01:09:01,057
I love that.

1745
01:09:01,297 --> 01:09:02,436
One other thing I want to throw out,

1746
01:09:02,477 --> 01:09:04,737
because I think this is a really important and good idea.

1747
01:09:04,737 --> 01:09:07,257
And I know that many startups that I have funded

1748
01:09:07,257 --> 01:09:10,137
are doing, let's say, Bitcoin banking and services

1749
01:09:10,137 --> 01:09:11,337
in emerging markets.

1750
01:09:11,477 --> 01:09:15,037
So places like Mexico, El Salvador, Brazil, Philippines,

1751
01:09:15,356 --> 01:09:16,017
et cetera, Vietnam.

1752
01:09:16,877 --> 01:09:18,597
One thing that I would love to see someone do,

1753
01:09:18,677 --> 01:09:20,356
eventually Square is going to do this themselves, I'm sure,

1754
01:09:20,477 --> 01:09:23,257
but that takes time, is to Steve's point,

1755
01:09:23,337 --> 01:09:24,517
and you could even do this in the US, right?

1756
01:09:24,936 --> 01:09:28,477
You guys are startups, and that means you have limited resources

1757
01:09:28,477 --> 01:09:30,117
compared to a massive public company.

1758
01:09:30,217 --> 01:09:31,997
But Square already has, I believe you've said,

1759
01:09:31,997 --> 01:09:34,816
a version of their software, which is currently available

1760
01:09:34,816 --> 01:09:36,597
for all the backend stuff, the accounting,

1761
01:09:36,597 --> 01:09:38,257
and like whatever the bookkeeping you have,

1762
01:09:38,517 --> 01:09:39,517
but you can't accept payments.

1763
01:09:39,677 --> 01:09:41,896
If I were building right now a startup

1764
01:09:41,896 --> 01:09:43,597
and I wanted to do this in an emerging market,

1765
01:09:43,717 --> 01:09:44,757
I would be figuring out

1766
01:09:44,757 --> 01:09:46,497
how can I take whatever Square is built

1767
01:09:46,497 --> 01:09:47,997
and figure out how to plug that into

1768
01:09:47,997 --> 01:09:49,417
an easy to use Bitcoin acceptance.

1769
01:09:50,017 --> 01:09:51,157
And eventually Square will do this themselves.

1770
01:09:51,237 --> 01:09:51,936
But like in the meantime,

1771
01:09:52,237 --> 01:09:53,637
how do I make all the accounting

1772
01:09:53,637 --> 01:09:55,957
that I need for the Bitcoin pay,

1773
01:09:56,277 --> 01:09:57,297
whether it's BTC pay server,

1774
01:09:57,436 --> 01:09:58,597
whatever product I'm using,

1775
01:09:58,877 --> 01:10:00,637
just like seamlessly integrate

1776
01:10:00,637 --> 01:10:02,097
or as seamlessly as possible with Square?

1777
01:10:02,237 --> 01:10:02,877
That's what I would do.

1778
01:10:04,057 --> 01:10:05,097
And I would love to see some of you guys do that.

1779
01:10:05,097 --> 01:10:11,217
for all the for the clovers and toasts of the why why square or why integrate with square uh because

1780
01:10:11,217 --> 01:10:15,337
i'm assuming square i mean probably has the best ui ux so i'm just thinking here's the example i'm

1781
01:10:15,337 --> 01:10:19,557
thinking i'm a merchant in mexico i can use like the kind of like jank normal whatever they use

1782
01:10:19,557 --> 01:10:25,237
clip that's very but it's kind of hood square um but imagine if i'm a startup uh like for example

1783
01:10:25,237 --> 01:10:28,717
maybe like yopaki or some of these guys are listening to this and they could say hey i know

1784
01:10:28,717 --> 01:10:32,356
they were already thinking about doing like a point of sale solution or ibex they have a point

1785
01:10:32,356 --> 01:10:32,877
of sales solution.

1786
01:10:33,217 --> 01:10:34,517
Instead of trying to rebuild the wheel

1787
01:10:34,517 --> 01:10:35,797
and compete with Square

1788
01:10:35,797 --> 01:10:36,816
on like probably software

1789
01:10:36,816 --> 01:10:37,917
that's really just much better

1790
01:10:37,917 --> 01:10:38,957
than what I can do as a startup,

1791
01:10:39,337 --> 01:10:39,677
I would say,

1792
01:10:39,797 --> 01:10:40,997
how can I take all of the accounting

1793
01:10:40,997 --> 01:10:41,777
and backend stuff

1794
01:10:41,777 --> 01:10:42,816
from Square's free version

1795
01:10:42,816 --> 01:10:43,936
and try and plug that

1796
01:10:43,936 --> 01:10:44,697
as easily as possible?

1797
01:10:44,797 --> 01:10:45,717
And on Square's end,

1798
01:10:45,757 --> 01:10:46,057
it'd be awesome

1799
01:10:46,057 --> 01:10:46,816
if that was open source.

1800
01:10:46,917 --> 01:10:47,577
I don't know if they would do that,

1801
01:10:47,657 --> 01:10:48,057
but...

1802
01:10:48,057 --> 01:10:49,837
Square's backend system stuff

1803
01:10:49,837 --> 01:10:51,457
isn't available

1804
01:10:51,457 --> 01:10:53,436
to the guy in Mexico.

1805
01:10:53,637 --> 01:10:54,117
I thought you said

1806
01:10:54,117 --> 01:10:55,356
there was a version of Square.

1807
01:10:55,457 --> 01:10:56,637
Well, there's Register World.

1808
01:10:56,637 --> 01:10:57,037
Yeah.

1809
01:10:57,637 --> 01:10:58,436
So I...

1810
01:10:58,436 --> 01:10:58,997
What's it called?

1811
01:10:59,517 --> 01:11:00,837
I think it's called Register World.

1812
01:11:01,237 --> 01:11:01,457
Okay.

1813
01:11:01,597 --> 01:11:02,297
I mean, it was launched

1814
01:11:02,297 --> 01:11:06,117
like I had worked at the company for like four years and had never heard of it, but it launched

1815
01:11:06,117 --> 01:11:13,297
like 10 years ago or something. It's it. I think people in Mexico do use it, but it,

1816
01:11:13,417 --> 01:11:18,677
it doesn't have any of the regulated type track by stuff.

1817
01:11:18,797 --> 01:11:30,835
Great But but yeah it it it I think it does have some or all of the backend stuff So that my point is never even heard of Register World Square team maybe it a chance to pump this idea out there

1818
01:11:30,835 --> 01:11:33,395
because all the other Bitcoin merchants in their own local communities

1819
01:11:33,395 --> 01:11:34,535
can start plugging those together.

1820
01:11:34,855 --> 01:11:36,015
And if you open source it, all the better.

1821
01:11:36,655 --> 01:11:36,775
Yeah.

1822
01:11:37,975 --> 01:11:40,455
I think it's definitely been discussed and thought of.

1823
01:11:40,815 --> 01:11:44,075
I mean, there's definitely interest from Square to go international.

1824
01:11:44,075 --> 01:11:44,495
Totally.

1825
01:11:44,675 --> 01:11:50,075
One approach is to take Register World and like a sidecar approach

1826
01:11:50,075 --> 01:11:52,335
where any Bitcoin wallet can be used.

1827
01:11:52,455 --> 01:11:53,495
Bring your own Bitcoin wallet.

1828
01:11:53,575 --> 01:11:53,755
Exactly.

1829
01:11:54,335 --> 01:11:56,655
It avoids all regulatory issues,

1830
01:11:56,755 --> 01:11:57,835
at least for block,

1831
01:11:58,075 --> 01:12:00,755
and it gives merchants choice.

1832
01:12:01,235 --> 01:12:03,495
It also means merchants have to choose

1833
01:12:03,495 --> 01:12:04,175
and go to the effort.

1834
01:12:04,455 --> 01:12:07,335
But I think that's a very reasonable approach.

1835
01:12:08,355 --> 01:12:09,795
But my point is, don't wait for Square.

1836
01:12:09,795 --> 01:12:11,095
Square does it, amazing.

1837
01:12:11,315 --> 01:12:12,275
But if I'm a startup...

1838
01:12:12,275 --> 01:12:13,175
But that's what I...

1839
01:12:13,175 --> 01:12:13,695
Right.

1840
01:12:13,895 --> 01:12:16,115
I don't know what kind of APIs are available.

1841
01:12:16,475 --> 01:12:17,315
You're saying integrate.

1842
01:12:17,495 --> 01:12:18,475
I don't know if that's available.

1843
01:12:18,475 --> 01:12:20,255
If it's available, then I totally agree.

1844
01:12:20,395 --> 01:12:21,615
Startups should go do that.

1845
01:12:22,475 --> 01:12:24,735
If the APIs aren't there, then how are you going to do it?

1846
01:12:24,735 --> 01:12:25,535
So two thoughts.

1847
01:12:25,635 --> 01:12:29,015
One, my request would be, it'd be awesome if Square is able to,

1848
01:12:29,095 --> 01:12:32,635
just to open source and or like have their APIs be as open as possible for that.

1849
01:12:33,075 --> 01:12:35,376
If for whatever reason they can't do that, then if I'm a startup,

1850
01:12:35,495 --> 01:12:37,275
you can still hack things together on the backend, right?

1851
01:12:37,275 --> 01:12:40,075
So you could like whatever, scrape the CSV file, merge them together.

1852
01:12:40,515 --> 01:12:42,575
I don't know exactly how that would work, but if I'm a startup,

1853
01:12:42,675 --> 01:12:44,555
that's kind of my like my niche in that I would do.

1854
01:12:44,555 --> 01:12:48,075
Yeah, I think that should be explored for sure.

1855
01:12:48,075 --> 01:12:48,595
I agree.

1856
01:12:49,695 --> 01:12:51,175
Request for psychopaths.

1857
01:12:51,255 --> 01:12:53,795
But just wrapping up the spiral stuff.

1858
01:12:53,916 --> 01:12:56,775
So there's a marketing kit for the Bitcoin army.

1859
01:12:57,155 --> 01:13:01,835
There also will be a marketing kit for merchants as well.

1860
01:13:02,855 --> 01:13:03,815
We can address comments in a minute.

1861
01:13:03,955 --> 01:13:04,075
Okay.

1862
01:13:06,175 --> 01:13:09,575
So yeah, the marketing kit.

1863
01:13:09,835 --> 01:13:12,335
Okay, let's address the comments here.

1864
01:13:12,455 --> 01:13:13,715
There's a bunch of stuff going on there.

1865
01:13:14,155 --> 01:13:14,935
Well, Matthew, I'm with you.

1866
01:13:15,015 --> 01:13:16,115
You said people own printers.

1867
01:13:16,115 --> 01:13:17,995
That was kind of like, I'm like.

1868
01:13:18,335 --> 01:13:20,315
Dude, I actually thought about buying a printer yesterday.

1869
01:13:20,795 --> 01:13:21,635
No, I wanted one.

1870
01:13:21,815 --> 01:13:24,315
Because now, no, there's all these different things you want.

1871
01:13:24,555 --> 01:13:25,115
God, I hate my printer.

1872
01:13:25,115 --> 01:13:26,815
No, there's no printer that's good.

1873
01:13:26,935 --> 01:13:27,295
No, no, no.

1874
01:13:27,315 --> 01:13:27,995
I want a printer.

1875
01:13:28,235 --> 01:13:30,595
I actually, I'm going to take the contrarian opinion on this.

1876
01:13:30,695 --> 01:13:31,735
I would love to be able to.

1877
01:13:31,855 --> 01:13:32,215
Printers are the future.

1878
01:13:32,235 --> 01:13:33,075
Yeah, to print.

1879
01:13:33,155 --> 01:13:35,055
Printers are the future, just like LinkedIn is the future.

1880
01:13:35,475 --> 01:13:38,995
In the same way, I want to be able to print my own stuff to share or modify.

1881
01:13:39,635 --> 01:13:44,095
Like, I actually, so for part of my experiments of phoneless living, which is not going as

1882
01:13:44,095 --> 01:13:44,735
well as I would like.

1883
01:13:44,735 --> 01:13:47,055
One thing I'm thinking of is I would love to go back.

1884
01:13:47,195 --> 01:13:48,735
Imagine the year is 2000 again.

1885
01:13:49,235 --> 01:13:51,675
You remember when you used to print a map from Yahoo Maps?

1886
01:13:52,175 --> 01:13:52,635
I want to do that.

1887
01:13:53,335 --> 01:13:53,795
MapQuest.

1888
01:13:54,195 --> 01:13:54,635
MapQuest.

1889
01:13:54,695 --> 01:13:55,416
That's what I used.

1890
01:13:55,615 --> 01:13:55,715
Yeah.

1891
01:13:56,376 --> 01:13:56,635
All right.

1892
01:13:56,916 --> 01:14:00,995
So the second thing Spiral is doing is the merchant marketing kit.

1893
01:14:01,275 --> 01:14:04,075
That's not available yet, but we're going to produce that.

1894
01:14:04,255 --> 01:14:08,015
And I think there's less urgency there because most of the merchants,

1895
01:14:08,775 --> 01:14:10,876
step one is to get merchants to turn it on.

1896
01:14:11,595 --> 01:14:14,275
Most merchants are not Pink Owl yet, right?

1897
01:14:14,275 --> 01:14:18,075
But they'll eventually become like Pink Owl where they're savvier about Bitcoin.

1898
01:14:18,335 --> 01:14:20,675
They realize they need to promote it and want to promote it.

1899
01:14:21,055 --> 01:14:23,275
And they'll want like a playbook, right?

1900
01:14:23,335 --> 01:14:31,515
So the merchant marketing kit will be a playbook for like what you can do to be successful with reducing fees, right?

1901
01:14:31,995 --> 01:14:37,535
And that's where like display the plushie or just other things to create awareness of spending Bitcoin.

1902
01:14:37,995 --> 01:14:40,975
So that's what Spiral did this week.

1903
01:14:41,416 --> 01:14:41,475
Great.

1904
01:14:41,876 --> 01:14:42,376
Boring week.

1905
01:14:42,655 --> 01:14:43,235
Nothing going on.

1906
01:14:43,235 --> 01:14:46,115
So this was the biggest week ever in Bitcoin.

1907
01:14:46,575 --> 01:14:47,515
Talked about a bunch of the announcements.

1908
01:14:47,735 --> 01:14:51,735
We are at 120, so we only have maybe 10-ish minutes left.

1909
01:14:52,095 --> 01:14:54,775
We talked about what we wanted to talk about last week, but we didn't have a regular PBJ.

1910
01:14:54,975 --> 01:14:56,376
We'll let you kick this one off, DK.

1911
01:14:56,735 --> 01:14:57,515
Well, okay.

1912
01:14:59,095 --> 01:15:03,195
This is a topic, this topic of lava, right?

1913
01:15:03,455 --> 01:15:08,455
There's this category of innovation that we've been, I think, all looking for and excited about for a while,

1914
01:15:08,455 --> 01:15:13,615
which is how can you take and build a collateralized lending on Bitcoin?

1915
01:15:14,255 --> 01:15:19,155
And we had met Shazan, what was it, I don't know, four or five years ago.

1916
01:15:19,416 --> 01:15:19,655
Long time.

1917
01:15:20,135 --> 01:15:26,115
And he was like, oh, I think I have a way to do non-custodial collateralized lending on Bitcoin.

1918
01:15:26,335 --> 01:15:27,115
That a Freudian slip?

1919
01:15:29,055 --> 01:15:30,795
He didn't, no, he said non-custodial.

1920
01:15:30,876 --> 01:15:31,115
All right.

1921
01:15:31,335 --> 01:15:32,335
With DLCs.

1922
01:15:32,335 --> 01:15:40,655
and uh and you know that's something i was excited about i continue to be excited about

1923
01:15:40,655 --> 01:15:44,876
uh if there's a can we actually pause for one second before we jump into specifics there's a

1924
01:15:44,876 --> 01:15:50,175
question i want to ask you dk i have in my whole time of knowing you only seen you get radically

1925
01:15:50,175 --> 01:15:54,955
excited about a few ideas one of these ideas is non-custodial lending you so we talked about last

1926
01:15:54,955 --> 01:15:58,415
night what sort of categories of big bitcoin businesses that made money there's no question

1927
01:15:58,415 --> 01:16:01,895
the biggest is exchange right coinbase is the biggest winner by far kraken's up there a few

1928
01:16:01,895 --> 01:16:08,335
others. You have said repeatedly, someone who executes non-custodial lending correctly at scale

1929
01:16:08,335 --> 01:16:12,876
could be at least a Coinbase-sized business. Why do you feel so strongly that this is such a

1930
01:16:12,876 --> 01:16:23,055
powerful wedge in business opportunity? Well, I think collateralized lending of Bitcoin is the

1931
01:16:23,055 --> 01:16:28,415
Coinbase-scale opportunity I'm talking about. And there's an infinite design space that you could

1932
01:16:28,415 --> 01:16:34,895
explore there. So I'm not saying it has to be done in a specific way. I'm saying people own this

1933
01:16:34,895 --> 01:16:40,035
asset. This asset has increased in value a lot. And a lot of people don't want to sell an asset

1934
01:16:40,035 --> 01:16:45,535
that has increased in value because they have to then pay capital gains on it. And we expect the

1935
01:16:45,535 --> 01:16:53,895
network value of Bitcoin to 10x or 100x from here over the next years and decades. So I think it's

1936
01:16:53,895 --> 01:16:58,935
natural that as that is happening and in traditional, like people collateralize their

1937
01:16:58,935 --> 01:17:03,775
homes and get mortgages and people collateralize stocks and get lines of credit. There's all kinds

1938
01:17:03,775 --> 01:17:08,315
of collateralized lending in the world, but there's this huge asset that's going to grow much,

1939
01:17:08,435 --> 01:17:11,995
much bigger and people are going to want to do collateralized lending on it. And so the question

1940
01:17:11,995 --> 01:17:17,575
is, how is that going to be ushered into the world? Will it be via custodial solutions,

1941
01:17:17,775 --> 01:17:22,415
non-custodial solutions? Will it be lines of credit? What will be loan terms? Will it be

1942
01:17:22,415 --> 01:17:26,775
something to do with the way it interplays with like a mortgage solution. All of the above.

1943
01:17:27,015 --> 01:17:32,015
I think all of the above is the right answer. So I'm not singling out non-custodial is the

1944
01:17:32,015 --> 01:17:36,055
only opportunity in this category that's going to be the massive winner and everybody else

1945
01:17:36,055 --> 01:17:40,475
going to fail. I think there's lots of different solutions. Do you think the biggest winner in

1946
01:17:40,475 --> 01:17:46,295
lending, collateralized lending, however it is, ultimately is a bigger opportunity than

1947
01:17:46,295 --> 01:17:49,935
exchange? Like IE, the biggest company that comes out of this space is a bigger company than

1948
01:17:49,935 --> 01:17:51,975
is. Yes, I think so.

1949
01:17:52,155 --> 01:17:53,855
Yes, for me. Yeah, I think so because

1950
01:17:53,855 --> 01:17:55,575
if you can do it

1951
01:17:55,575 --> 01:17:57,735
in a non-custodial way,

1952
01:17:58,255 --> 01:17:59,935
the entire market is

1953
01:17:59,935 --> 01:18:01,935
your market from day one. You don't have to mess

1954
01:18:01,935 --> 01:18:03,935
with all the regulatory

1955
01:18:03,935 --> 01:18:05,876
hurdles that you have to when you actually take

1956
01:18:05,876 --> 01:18:07,876
custody of Bitcoin.

1957
01:18:08,595 --> 01:18:09,915
Also, I think if we fast forward

1958
01:18:09,915 --> 01:18:12,015
10, 20 years, whatever it is, quite a

1959
01:18:12,015 --> 01:18:12,615
bit in the future,

1960
01:18:13,115 --> 01:18:15,755
Bitcoin will just be ubiquitous

1961
01:18:15,755 --> 01:18:17,655
and it'll be the ultimate

1962
01:18:17,655 --> 01:18:19,895
collateral in the world better than any other

1963
01:18:19,895 --> 01:18:20,835
asset for collateral.

1964
01:18:22,376 --> 01:18:23,395
And in terms of

1965
01:18:23,395 --> 01:18:26,075
exchanges, like the exchanges

1966
01:18:26,075 --> 01:18:27,975
they're profitable because of the casino.

1967
01:18:28,575 --> 01:18:30,255
And I'm not saying casinos are going away.

1968
01:18:30,415 --> 01:18:32,175
Well, I mean, River is profitable too.

1969
01:18:32,815 --> 01:18:33,175
I believe.

1970
01:18:33,855 --> 01:18:35,575
Tiny compared to Coinbase though, right?

1971
01:18:35,715 --> 01:18:38,115
We love River, we're investors in River

1972
01:18:38,115 --> 01:18:39,675
and we love Alex, but it's not

1973
01:18:39,675 --> 01:18:42,015
a Coinbase size opportunity

1974
01:18:42,015 --> 01:18:43,876
because they're not a casino.

1975
01:18:43,876 --> 01:18:45,695
I think River has great

1976
01:18:45,695 --> 01:18:47,455
long-term potential as well.

1977
01:18:47,835 --> 01:18:49,775
But to date, the money's been

1978
01:18:49,775 --> 01:18:51,755
in the casino. I don't think, I'm not

1979
01:18:51,755 --> 01:18:53,655
predicting casinos go away. In fact,

1980
01:18:53,735 --> 01:18:54,835
casinos are going to exist in 20 years.

1981
01:18:54,835 --> 01:18:57,515
Casinos are human nature. They're going to keep existing.

1982
01:18:57,655 --> 01:18:59,455
But the size of the opportunity,

1983
01:19:00,195 --> 01:19:01,755
like the size of the

1984
01:19:01,755 --> 01:19:03,575
casino in 20 years compared to the

1985
01:19:03,575 --> 01:19:05,955
whole world adopting Bitcoin, the Bitcoin standard,

1986
01:19:06,555 --> 01:19:07,895
Bitcoin's the ultimate collateral in the world,

1987
01:19:08,075 --> 01:19:09,595
that market is going to grow

1988
01:19:09,595 --> 01:19:11,876
orders of magnitude and be way bigger.

1989
01:19:12,135 --> 01:19:13,815
And it's like Alex always says,

1990
01:19:14,075 --> 01:19:15,795
you can either build JP Morgan or you can build

1991
01:19:15,795 --> 01:19:17,895
Caesar's Palace. Coinbase

1992
01:19:17,895 --> 01:19:19,435
built Caesar's Palace. He started to build JP Morgan.

1993
01:19:19,435 --> 01:19:25,055
one question on that though i'm curious for both of you guys do you think though if we really get

1994
01:19:25,055 --> 01:19:30,295
to the bitcoin standard world so in a world where there's this intermediate step where the state

1995
01:19:30,295 --> 01:19:34,675
still exists and all these other reasons for collateralized lending i agree with you and maybe

1996
01:19:34,675 --> 01:19:39,335
that's the case the next 10 20 years as you really zoom out and i don't even know it's like it's a

1997
01:19:39,335 --> 01:19:44,876
challenge to get timelines here but like does that opportunity still exist in the far future or are we

1998
01:19:44,876 --> 01:19:48,275
just one day it's like not like everything's bitcoin there's only bitcoin there's no like

1999
01:19:48,275 --> 01:19:50,075
You're saying does the lending opportunity still exist?

2000
01:19:50,075 --> 01:19:52,595
Yeah, like imagine that opportunity exists

2001
01:19:52,595 --> 01:19:53,955
because of regulatory arbitrage.

2002
01:19:54,595 --> 01:19:56,115
I'm saying if we get to a world

2003
01:19:56,115 --> 01:19:57,995
that's a lot more sovereign individual

2004
01:19:57,995 --> 01:20:00,415
and everyone's just Bitcoin for Bitcoin for everything,

2005
01:20:01,075 --> 01:20:03,595
like, sorry, you have a hyper-Bitcoinization.

2006
01:20:04,015 --> 01:20:04,895
Like, there is no more fiat.

2007
01:20:05,055 --> 01:20:05,535
Yeah, we're fiat.

2008
01:20:05,535 --> 01:20:06,715
But obviously there's no more market

2009
01:20:06,715 --> 01:20:09,055
to get a dollar loan for Bitcoin.

2010
01:20:09,175 --> 01:20:09,395
Exactly.

2011
01:20:09,395 --> 01:20:09,955
So obviously that goes away.

2012
01:20:09,955 --> 01:20:11,015
But everything else changes too.

2013
01:20:11,195 --> 01:20:12,815
Like, what does this state look like?

2014
01:20:12,855 --> 01:20:13,815
How does taxation work?

2015
01:20:13,935 --> 01:20:15,215
How do other assets work?

2016
01:20:15,415 --> 01:20:15,815
That's what I'm saying.

2017
01:20:16,055 --> 01:20:18,015
I mean, we've talked a little bit about that.

2018
01:20:18,015 --> 01:20:19,775
I think it's an interesting conversation,

2019
01:20:19,935 --> 01:20:21,015
but that's long, long term.

2020
01:20:22,295 --> 01:20:24,376
And like for the next 20 years,

2021
01:20:24,455 --> 01:20:26,015
there's this enormous business opportunity,

2022
01:20:26,195 --> 01:20:27,895
which I think this high probability,

2023
01:20:28,575 --> 01:20:31,135
my opinion, very high probability this plays out.

2024
01:20:31,495 --> 01:20:33,035
The whole hyper-perikinization,

2025
01:20:33,895 --> 01:20:36,695
I would define a much lower probability.

2026
01:20:37,695 --> 01:20:38,855
At least, I mean, it depends on your timeline.

2027
01:20:38,876 --> 01:20:39,615
It depends on your timeline.

2028
01:20:39,815 --> 01:20:39,895
Yeah.

2029
01:20:40,295 --> 01:20:43,195
And it could be that there's a new type of credit.

2030
01:20:43,495 --> 01:20:44,876
I mean, kind of like what Mike Shredge is doing

2031
01:20:44,876 --> 01:20:45,615
with digital credit.

2032
01:20:45,695 --> 01:20:47,295
There could be a new type of digital credit

2033
01:20:47,295 --> 01:20:49,915
that emerges is sort of like auxiliary

2034
01:20:49,915 --> 01:20:53,595
to the hyper-Bitcoinization Bitcoin asset

2035
01:20:53,595 --> 01:20:54,376
that everybody holds.

2036
01:20:55,075 --> 01:20:56,855
And I think it's hard to predict

2037
01:20:56,855 --> 01:20:57,935
exactly how it's going to play out.

2038
01:20:58,015 --> 01:20:59,795
So it's kind of fascinating to explore,

2039
01:20:59,915 --> 01:21:01,955
but that's in a sense like...

2040
01:21:01,955 --> 01:21:02,855
And I'll just add there,

2041
01:21:02,935 --> 01:21:03,895
I think for people that are thinking

2042
01:21:03,895 --> 01:21:04,855
about startup opportunities,

2043
01:21:04,975 --> 01:21:07,015
this is a really good direct sort of wedge to get in.

2044
01:21:07,055 --> 01:21:08,195
But I'm also very interested in hearing

2045
01:21:08,195 --> 01:21:10,755
about what does credit,

2046
01:21:10,955 --> 01:21:12,035
when we talked a little bit about this,

2047
01:21:12,075 --> 01:21:13,295
but look like in the Bitcoin standard.

2048
01:21:13,715 --> 01:21:15,115
I know Tour Demister and some other people

2049
01:21:15,115 --> 01:21:15,575
have been talking,

2050
01:21:15,575 --> 01:21:21,555
thinking a lot about what Bitcoin and insurance, how those markets are going to be used in the

2051
01:21:21,555 --> 01:21:25,855
future. I think there's probably a lot of opportunity. If you believe in hyper-Bitcoinization

2052
01:21:25,855 --> 01:21:32,615
future, then you also probably believe that holding that asset should increase as the percent of GDP.

2053
01:21:33,175 --> 01:21:36,675
It is growth, right? So if you know that it's going to grow and everybody else knows it's going

2054
01:21:36,675 --> 01:21:40,735
to grow, maybe there's a new type of synthetic thing where you're like, I'm not selling it,

2055
01:21:40,935 --> 01:21:44,535
but I'm going to capture the gains and you're going to let me spend the liquidity right now.

2056
01:21:44,535 --> 01:21:48,115
Well, I think it all changes in nature because people are always like, oh, a deflationary economy will never work.

2057
01:21:48,135 --> 01:21:48,895
It's like, well, you bought a phone.

2058
01:21:49,475 --> 01:21:51,115
Let me bring this back in, though.

2059
01:21:51,115 --> 01:21:54,355
The news of the past week and a half has been lava.

2060
01:21:54,535 --> 01:21:57,135
A major crisis, and we're not talking about lava anymore.

2061
01:21:57,475 --> 01:21:58,335
We didn't talk about the market.

2062
01:21:59,095 --> 01:22:06,835
I mean, the TLDR, four years ago, we all thought this is a big market, convicted on what we just said.

2063
01:22:07,335 --> 01:22:08,835
I think we still feel this way.

2064
01:22:09,035 --> 01:22:10,215
There'll be many different solutions.

2065
01:22:10,315 --> 01:22:11,055
We all agree on that.

2066
01:22:12,435 --> 01:22:13,815
We all met Shazan.

2067
01:22:13,815 --> 01:22:18,995
I think independently, or I forget how we got connected, but at the same time, we all invested in Lava.

2068
01:22:20,455 --> 01:22:23,215
And it felt like a great investment because we had a big opportunity.

2069
01:22:24,255 --> 01:22:28,935
And this was also right around the time when BlockFi was blowing up and all these custodial services.

2070
01:22:29,215 --> 01:22:34,715
So this self-custody approach was novel and compelling.

2071
01:22:36,055 --> 01:22:42,935
Using DLC or discrete log contract technology was quite interesting and compelling.

2072
01:22:42,935 --> 01:22:55,835
It had only been partially proven out, like Atomic Finance, and a few startups had used it with mild usage, I believe.

2073
01:22:56,395 --> 01:23:09,035
So proved it out to a certain extent, but no one had and still has proven out DLC technology, which for those not familiar with it, just think of it as like advanced smart contracts for Bitcoin.

2074
01:23:09,035 --> 01:23:11,715
in which you can do a loan.

2075
01:23:11,975 --> 01:23:14,175
You can do loans with DLCs.

2076
01:23:14,975 --> 01:23:17,255
And the TLDR without getting too into the weeds

2077
01:23:17,255 --> 01:23:19,055
is just imagine you take a bet

2078
01:23:19,055 --> 01:23:20,435
or whatever, have some position,

2079
01:23:20,635 --> 01:23:23,095
and you say there's an oracle that's going to come.

2080
01:23:23,255 --> 01:23:26,355
And the only way that this contract gets settled

2081
01:23:26,355 --> 01:23:28,715
or liquidated is if some condition is met

2082
01:23:28,715 --> 01:23:29,635
by the external oracle.

2083
01:23:29,975 --> 01:23:31,195
There's always been, to be clear,

2084
01:23:31,275 --> 01:23:32,795
the issue of who controls the oracle.

2085
01:23:32,915 --> 01:23:33,715
That's a point of attack.

2086
01:23:33,995 --> 01:23:37,695
But in this case, in a typical case,

2087
01:23:37,695 --> 01:23:38,615
the Oracle is saying,

2088
01:23:38,795 --> 01:23:40,495
what is the price of Bitcoin in dollars

2089
01:23:40,495 --> 01:23:41,335
or something like that.

2090
01:23:41,775 --> 01:23:43,275
Or who won the sports match or whatever.

2091
01:23:43,355 --> 01:23:45,275
And Lava did some innovation

2092
01:23:45,275 --> 01:23:46,995
around how to do blind Oracles.

2093
01:23:47,135 --> 01:23:48,355
The Oracle that's reporting

2094
01:23:48,355 --> 01:23:51,295
doesn't know which contracts it's resolving.

2095
01:23:51,655 --> 01:23:52,615
I'm not aware of that.

2096
01:23:52,915 --> 01:23:53,095
Okay.

2097
01:23:53,635 --> 01:23:54,915
No, that's just how DLCs work.

2098
01:23:55,115 --> 01:23:55,315
Okay.

2099
01:23:56,355 --> 01:23:58,135
Tal Trisha invented DLCs

2100
01:23:58,135 --> 01:23:59,755
and that's an inherent property

2101
01:23:59,755 --> 01:24:00,635
in how DLCs work.

2102
01:24:00,855 --> 01:24:01,055
Okay.

2103
01:24:01,275 --> 01:24:01,435
Yeah.

2104
01:24:01,955 --> 01:24:04,415
And so they got that benefit,

2105
01:24:04,555 --> 01:24:06,775
but anyone using DLCs gets that benefit.

2106
01:24:06,775 --> 01:24:29,376
So I have been excited about Lava because it's a huge market opportunity, the use of DLC, so the tech nerd in me, and wanting to show or see how more advanced smart contracts could play out in Bitcoin and actually create products that work, scale, are secure.

2107
01:24:29,675 --> 01:24:34,095
Because until someone actually does it, you can academically understand it, but let's see it for real.

2108
01:24:34,095 --> 01:24:35,975
So I was excited to see that play out.

2109
01:24:36,775 --> 01:24:38,515
I was also excited as an investor.

2110
01:24:38,715 --> 01:24:40,055
I mean, Shazan, who we met,

2111
01:24:40,535 --> 01:24:42,935
obviously has been very successful in selling the vision,

2112
01:24:43,055 --> 01:24:44,455
has been very successful at fundraising.

2113
01:24:44,895 --> 01:24:46,735
Very few companies in the Bitcoin ecosystem

2114
01:24:46,735 --> 01:24:48,575
have been able to break out traditional venture capital.

2115
01:24:48,715 --> 01:24:50,715
He raised a Series A from Founders Fund at Kostla.

2116
01:24:50,995 --> 01:24:52,395
That was extremely exciting for me to see,

2117
01:24:52,475 --> 01:24:55,035
hey, traditional Silicon Valley sees the opportunity in him.

2118
01:24:55,095 --> 01:24:56,876
They see the opportunity in collateralized lending.

2119
01:24:57,335 --> 01:24:58,955
Looks like we're finally bridging that gap.

2120
01:24:59,015 --> 01:24:59,975
So that was the reason I was excited.

2121
01:25:00,335 --> 01:25:00,415
Yep.

2122
01:25:00,735 --> 01:25:02,615
And we've talked about Lava before.

2123
01:25:02,695 --> 01:25:03,955
We talked about other solutions.

2124
01:25:03,955 --> 01:25:07,155
we have been Lava supporters and excited for Lava

2125
01:25:07,155 --> 01:25:08,695
now

2126
01:25:08,695 --> 01:25:11,075
and I've like a year or so ago

2127
01:25:11,075 --> 01:25:12,815
I took out some Lava

2128
01:25:12,815 --> 01:25:15,155
as an experiment

2129
01:25:15,155 --> 01:25:16,235
took out some Lava loans

2130
01:25:16,235 --> 01:25:18,335
toy money, nothing real

2131
01:25:18,335 --> 01:25:19,295
just to see how it works

2132
01:25:19,295 --> 01:25:22,155
gave Shazan some UX feedback, product feedback

2133
01:25:22,155 --> 01:25:23,335
but I could see how

2134
01:25:23,335 --> 01:25:25,235
like

2135
01:25:25,235 --> 01:25:27,415
it was very compelling

2136
01:25:27,415 --> 01:25:29,395
like I didn't have to KYC

2137
01:25:29,395 --> 01:25:31,435
I was able to get a loan instantly

2138
01:25:31,435 --> 01:25:32,915
and then

2139
01:25:32,915 --> 01:25:36,015
and keep self-custody of my Bitcoin.

2140
01:25:36,515 --> 01:25:37,395
And then I had dollars

2141
01:25:37,395 --> 01:25:39,915
and I could literally deposit them

2142
01:25:39,915 --> 01:25:41,115
in Wells Fargo Bank.

2143
01:25:41,555 --> 01:25:42,795
I could...

2144
01:25:42,795 --> 01:25:44,235
You have to KYC to do that, though, right?

2145
01:25:44,235 --> 01:25:45,376
I had to KYC to do that.

2146
01:25:45,975 --> 01:25:47,555
I also transferred to like...

2147
01:25:47,555 --> 01:25:48,175
You could just take...

2148
01:25:48,175 --> 01:25:49,376
I transferred to Phantom.

2149
01:25:49,615 --> 01:25:49,775
Yep.

2150
01:25:50,615 --> 01:25:51,895
And didn't have to KYC.

2151
01:25:52,055 --> 01:25:53,615
So if you want to be KYC-free,

2152
01:25:54,095 --> 01:25:56,095
you can, you know,

2153
01:25:56,115 --> 01:25:57,876
you take out the loan, instant loan.

2154
01:25:58,415 --> 01:26:01,415
I mean, you deposit your Bitcoin in Lava.

2155
01:26:01,415 --> 01:26:03,635
you get this instant loan

2156
01:26:03,635 --> 01:26:05,455
you then transfer the dollars

2157
01:26:05,455 --> 01:26:06,515
to phantom

2158
01:26:06,515 --> 01:26:07,795
and then do whatever you want

2159
01:26:07,795 --> 01:26:08,635
with those dollars

2160
01:26:08,635 --> 01:26:09,095
stable coins critically

2161
01:26:09,095 --> 01:26:09,955
so to be clear

2162
01:26:09,955 --> 01:26:10,715
you have the option of

2163
01:26:10,715 --> 01:26:11,495
no KYC

2164
01:26:11,495 --> 01:26:12,335
you get stable coins

2165
01:26:12,335 --> 01:26:13,535
or KYC

2166
01:26:13,535 --> 01:26:14,215
you get stable coins

2167
01:26:14,215 --> 01:26:15,055
you get stable coins

2168
01:26:15,055 --> 01:26:16,315
and then you can choose

2169
01:26:16,315 --> 01:26:17,455
to offer up it to bank dollars

2170
01:26:17,455 --> 01:26:18,376
so that requires KYC

2171
01:26:18,376 --> 01:26:19,175
or you can choose to

2172
01:26:19,175 --> 01:26:20,355
choose to offer up it

2173
01:26:20,355 --> 01:26:20,975
and I should know

2174
01:26:20,975 --> 01:26:22,595
I also did one of these loans

2175
01:26:22,595 --> 01:26:24,135
not exactly trivial

2176
01:26:24,135 --> 01:26:25,015
I really wanted to like

2177
01:26:25,015 --> 01:26:25,915
put my money around my mouth

2178
01:26:25,915 --> 01:26:26,735
and see if it worked

2179
01:26:26,735 --> 01:26:27,235
it worked

2180
01:26:27,235 --> 01:26:27,975
to be clear

2181
01:26:27,975 --> 01:26:28,935
there were some issues

2182
01:26:28,935 --> 01:26:29,615
with the app

2183
01:26:29,615 --> 01:26:30,615
not sending me notifications

2184
01:26:30,615 --> 01:26:31,195
not an issue

2185
01:26:31,195 --> 01:26:32,055
with the core product.

2186
01:26:32,475 --> 01:26:34,575
I've been working through the team with them on that.

2187
01:26:34,735 --> 01:26:35,515
I never saw the Lambo.

2188
01:26:36,876 --> 01:26:39,295
Not that big of a loan.

2189
01:26:39,415 --> 01:26:42,635
Not all of us are filing the 10 million Bitcoin

2190
01:26:42,635 --> 01:26:43,855
in our couch.

2191
01:26:44,135 --> 01:26:46,975
I had my UX nits,

2192
01:26:47,115 --> 01:26:50,535
but the core product I found quite compelling a year ago.

2193
01:26:51,335 --> 01:26:53,515
Now, there are still reasons then

2194
01:26:53,515 --> 01:26:55,075
that I wouldn't use it for real.

2195
01:26:56,355 --> 01:26:59,795
One is that the Oracle,

2196
01:26:59,795 --> 01:27:02,655
it was designed to have multiple oracles

2197
01:27:02,655 --> 01:27:04,895
but it was only using

2198
01:27:04,895 --> 01:27:06,376
just Lava as the oracle

2199
01:27:06,376 --> 01:27:08,095
so that really made it

2200
01:27:08,095 --> 01:27:09,655
trusted

2201
01:27:09,655 --> 01:27:12,735
completely trusting Lava

2202
01:27:12,735 --> 01:27:14,055
then but I was just

2203
01:27:14,055 --> 01:27:15,155
they're a startup

2204
01:27:15,155 --> 01:27:18,555
it's a startup you got to prioritize

2205
01:27:18,555 --> 01:27:20,535
and eventually they'd have Coinbase

2206
01:27:20,535 --> 01:27:22,876
and Block and River and major institutions

2207
01:27:22,876 --> 01:27:24,035
as oracles and then

2208
01:27:24,035 --> 01:27:26,515
they all have to agree and then

2209
01:27:26,515 --> 01:27:28,055
it's a pretty tight solution I think

2210
01:27:28,055 --> 01:27:35,295
A second reason I wouldn't use it for real is that the only way you could custody your Bitcoin is to store it in lava on iPhone.

2211
01:27:35,815 --> 01:27:40,595
And Shazan was adamant that that's the most secure way to store Bitcoin.

2212
01:27:41,876 --> 01:27:52,775
Well, I agree with a lot of his sentiment on iOS security, but I do not agree that's the most secure way to store Bitcoin.

2213
01:27:52,775 --> 01:27:54,955
and independent of whether who's right

2214
01:27:54,955 --> 01:27:56,095
about what's the most secure way,

2215
01:27:56,455 --> 01:27:58,735
what I do know is everyone has different solutions

2216
01:27:58,735 --> 01:27:59,675
they're using.

2217
01:28:00,115 --> 01:28:02,635
And we all push super hard for bring your own custody.

2218
01:28:02,635 --> 01:28:04,515
Bring your own custody.

2219
01:28:04,775 --> 01:28:05,876
All of us agree on that.

2220
01:28:05,895 --> 01:28:07,876
DK pushed that the most, but we all pushed for it.

2221
01:28:08,655 --> 01:28:10,615
I think that would have been a much superior,

2222
01:28:10,735 --> 01:28:12,235
like if you're going to support self-custody,

2223
01:28:12,335 --> 01:28:13,895
that's a far superior product.

2224
01:28:14,395 --> 01:28:15,815
And it would be beautiful.

2225
01:28:15,975 --> 01:28:18,755
Like if I had used cold storage with Ledger

2226
01:28:18,755 --> 01:28:19,975
or Trezor or BitKey or whatever,

2227
01:28:20,495 --> 01:28:22,695
they could all integrate and support deals.

2228
01:28:22,775 --> 01:28:24,835
and then it would just, you literally don't have to,

2229
01:28:25,135 --> 01:28:27,575
you don't have to move your Bitcoin out of your BitKey

2230
01:28:27,575 --> 01:28:28,735
or your cold card or whatever.

2231
01:28:28,915 --> 01:28:30,135
That would be awesome.

2232
01:28:30,375 --> 01:28:30,635
That would.

2233
01:28:31,175 --> 01:28:35,055
Now, but that's another reason why I wouldn't, you know,

2234
01:28:35,215 --> 01:28:38,976
put like $100,000 of Bitcoin or something on my iPhone.

2235
01:28:39,095 --> 01:28:39,976
I didn't do that either, to be clear.

2236
01:28:40,675 --> 01:28:45,415
So, you know, so there are reasons I wouldn't use it for real.

2237
01:28:45,555 --> 01:28:45,675
Yeah.

2238
01:28:46,055 --> 01:28:48,835
But then, okay, why is there drama the past week and a half?

2239
01:28:48,835 --> 01:29:18,555
lo and behold they completely changed their product from self-custody to custodial none of us were aware of that it took everyone by surprise and so that that's a huge shift so I think things we should talk about what one what do we think about that move and I definitely one thing I want to talk about is like communications because my biggest criticism and concern and I think I would call failure is communications.

2240
01:29:18,835 --> 01:29:20,575
So I want to speak to that.

2241
01:29:20,675 --> 01:29:36,535
But maybe let's first talk about why do we, because we don't, despite having many private conversations with Shazan, and we also have read what he's written publicly, we still don't really know the reasons for switching.

2242
01:29:36,715 --> 01:29:39,315
He's talked about vulnerabilities in DLCs.

2243
01:29:39,575 --> 01:29:47,035
He's said that custodial, or that non-custodial is just as trusted, or it's trusted, custodial is trusted.

2244
01:29:47,155 --> 01:29:48,275
They're all sort of the same thing.

2245
01:29:48,275 --> 01:29:52,135
I want to participate in this conversation. I have to peel it. I'll be right back. Give me two seconds.

2246
01:29:52,135 --> 01:29:54,295
I think that's all

2247
01:29:54,295 --> 01:29:56,735
I think that's all

2248
01:29:56,735 --> 01:29:59,855
anyway

2249
01:29:59,855 --> 01:30:04,135
to me, I think one thing we'll talk about is like the customer

2250
01:30:04,135 --> 01:30:06,976
base. Who's the customer base? And maybe they don't care.

2251
01:30:07,495 --> 01:30:12,255
So if the customer base for this product isn't already self-custodding

2252
01:30:12,255 --> 01:30:15,995
and they don't want the burden of self-custodding, then

2253
01:30:15,995 --> 01:30:20,315
that could be a very valid reason to switch to custodial.

2254
01:30:20,575 --> 01:30:23,915
Because if your customers who want to use the product don't self-custody

2255
01:30:23,915 --> 01:30:27,775
and consider it a barrier to start self-custodying,

2256
01:30:28,195 --> 01:30:31,415
I think that's a completely rational business and product decision. But then

2257
01:30:31,415 --> 01:30:35,915
just communicate that. And I haven't heard those words. Instead,

2258
01:30:36,055 --> 01:30:39,976
things like, oh, non-custodial, custodial, they're the same thing. DLCs have

2259
01:30:39,976 --> 01:30:43,875
security vulnerabilities. And I still do not understand, despite him

2260
01:30:43,875 --> 01:30:47,455
trying to communicate it to me, I still don't know what those problems are.

2261
01:30:47,875 --> 01:30:54,095
Yeah, I mean, I think that your advice to Shazan to improve communication is good advice to him.

2262
01:30:54,995 --> 01:31:00,976
I will say that, you know, startups are messy and it's challenging when you're building something new.

2263
01:31:00,976 --> 01:31:09,615
There's lots of constituents that you have to incorporate their needs into what you're doing and their needs might have conflicts.

2264
01:31:09,615 --> 01:31:15,595
so you know when you think about there are there are customers there are investors he's committed

2265
01:31:15,595 --> 01:31:23,495
things to there are partners that he has like maybe this new uh credit line that was just uh

2266
01:31:23,495 --> 01:31:28,515
announced i think it was a 200 million dollar liquidity line that is going to fund the loans

2267
01:31:28,515 --> 01:31:33,175
well i don't i think like a portion of like 15 or so milliliter's equity and they have close but

2268
01:31:33,175 --> 01:31:37,135
there's there's i'm just saying there's different constituents who have different expectations of

2269
01:31:37,135 --> 01:31:41,875
what you're doing. And in, you know, I don't know the terms of that, but that might not be something

2270
01:31:41,875 --> 01:31:45,895
that you can publicly talk about according to the terms of the thing, for example. And maybe they

2271
01:31:45,895 --> 01:31:51,935
didn't want to provide the 200 million without a centralized service. So I'm not here to say that

2272
01:31:51,935 --> 01:31:57,035
everything he did was right, but I do think it's a complex environment that he's operating in and

2273
01:31:57,035 --> 01:32:01,215
he's trying to find the right trade-offs. Let's get into things that I think are unequivocally

2274
01:32:01,215 --> 01:32:06,335
could have, should have been done communication-wise. Different categories. So one is in

2275
01:32:06,335 --> 01:32:14,135
product. So when I opened Lava app, it basically said it's going to convert me.

2276
01:32:14,515 --> 01:32:18,675
All right. I took a screen. Upgrade. I mean, I took a screenshot so I can look up the actual

2277
01:32:18,675 --> 01:32:25,255
word. And then I pressed the button and then it upgraded me. There was no mention of the product

2278
01:32:25,255 --> 01:32:30,075
is no longer self-custody. It's now custodial. There's no discussion, no mention of that at all.

2279
01:32:30,075 --> 01:32:31,595
I was not informed of that.

2280
01:32:31,595 --> 01:32:43,476
So Shazan told me that because my loan for a variety of reasons was not active when the shift happened, that you were told that things were going to be shifted from non-custodial to custodial.

2281
01:32:43,675 --> 01:32:46,055
I don't know if that was via email, which I never received emails either.

2282
01:32:46,175 --> 01:32:47,835
So maybe you guys got emails, maybe you didn't.

2283
01:32:48,175 --> 01:32:50,155
But this was the point I was trying to push Shazan on.

2284
01:32:50,235 --> 01:32:52,476
And Shazan, if you're listening, this is an extremely important point.

2285
01:32:52,755 --> 01:32:54,455
When you shifted, what did the screen say?

2286
01:32:54,535 --> 01:32:55,635
It has a Lava logo.

2287
01:32:55,875 --> 01:32:56,375
It says Lava.

2288
01:32:56,955 --> 01:32:58,395
Please update your app.

2289
01:32:58,815 --> 01:33:00,235
Lava's latest version is here.

2290
01:33:00,235 --> 01:33:01,355
Please update it.

2291
01:33:01,355 --> 01:33:01,995
Yeah, that's not cool.

2292
01:33:02,095 --> 01:33:04,476
And then there's a button that says update app now.

2293
01:33:04,615 --> 01:33:05,795
That's literally all it says.

2294
01:33:07,175 --> 01:33:08,775
Yeah, that to me is like, that's unacceptable.

2295
01:33:09,295 --> 01:33:10,095
It's unacceptable.

2296
01:33:10,295 --> 01:33:10,675
Unacceptable.

2297
01:33:10,795 --> 01:33:13,135
Horrible communication for their customer base.

2298
01:33:13,615 --> 01:33:15,255
It should have been explained.

2299
01:33:16,335 --> 01:33:17,215
Did you get an email?

2300
01:33:17,895 --> 01:33:19,415
He says emails were sent out.

2301
01:33:19,515 --> 01:33:20,375
I did not get an email.

2302
01:33:20,655 --> 01:33:21,215
Did you get an email?

2303
01:33:21,295 --> 01:33:22,895
I checked my spam folder.

2304
01:33:23,275 --> 01:33:24,035
I did not get an email.

2305
01:33:24,175 --> 01:33:24,615
I don't think I did.

2306
01:33:24,615 --> 01:33:26,315
He says it's because I was an early user.

2307
01:33:26,615 --> 01:33:27,375
It could be true.

2308
01:33:27,476 --> 01:33:27,835
Could be true.

2309
01:33:27,915 --> 01:33:29,175
Maybe we were early users.

2310
01:33:29,175 --> 01:33:30,375
were not in the email list

2311
01:33:30,375 --> 01:33:31,735
and everyone else was, maybe.

2312
01:33:31,976 --> 01:33:32,415
I don't know.

2313
01:33:32,476 --> 01:33:33,415
But I did not get an email.

2314
01:33:34,555 --> 01:33:36,635
So very bad communication there.

2315
01:33:36,955 --> 01:33:38,515
And then when I upgraded,

2316
01:33:39,575 --> 01:33:40,815
I tapped the button to upgrade

2317
01:33:40,815 --> 01:33:41,875
and then it showed my balances.

2318
01:33:42,055 --> 01:33:42,755
They were all zero.

2319
01:33:43,476 --> 01:33:46,635
And I had both Bitcoin and dollars in the wallet.

2320
01:33:47,395 --> 01:33:48,135
So it said zero.

2321
01:33:48,755 --> 01:33:49,695
So then I'm like,

2322
01:33:49,835 --> 01:33:51,155
what in the world did I get rugged?

2323
01:33:51,315 --> 01:33:52,215
Did my money get stolen?

2324
01:33:52,395 --> 01:33:53,255
So I chatted with him

2325
01:33:53,255 --> 01:33:54,115
and to his credit,

2326
01:33:54,295 --> 01:33:55,515
he took the time.

2327
01:33:55,695 --> 01:33:56,915
I mean, he's very busy.

2328
01:33:56,915 --> 01:33:58,255
They've all taken the time to help us.

2329
01:33:58,255 --> 01:34:02,795
So to Zahn's credit, he took the time to help guide me there.

2330
01:34:03,295 --> 01:34:06,195
I still had my seed phrase.

2331
01:34:06,815 --> 01:34:11,155
So I took that and imported it into Blue Wallet.

2332
01:34:11,635 --> 01:34:13,595
And lo and behold, there was my Bitcoin balance.

2333
01:34:13,715 --> 01:34:18,535
And then I transferred it to another wallet and the Bitcoin network worked and it was real and authentic.

2334
01:34:18,955 --> 01:34:22,195
So it really was self-custodied Bitcoin.

2335
01:34:22,835 --> 01:34:24,476
And I got my Bitcoin back.

2336
01:34:24,476 --> 01:34:30,635
But then I still didn't have my Solana dollars or whatever, my USDC dollars.

2337
01:34:31,715 --> 01:34:37,395
So I took my seed words and I imported it into Phantom thinking, I don't really know how.

2338
01:34:38,195 --> 01:34:45,915
I mean, I know how this stuff, I know how the HD wallet can support other coins.

2339
01:34:45,915 --> 01:34:46,535
I've never been to the casino.

2340
01:34:46,835 --> 01:34:49,976
But I've never imported a wallet into.

2341
01:34:50,375 --> 01:34:51,215
Just for the free drinks.

2342
01:34:51,375 --> 01:34:51,935
Yeah, exactly.

2343
01:34:52,035 --> 01:34:52,695
Phantom that way.

2344
01:34:52,695 --> 01:34:53,355
It's such a buffet.

2345
01:34:53,355 --> 01:34:53,815
It did that.

2346
01:34:53,815 --> 01:34:54,435
It's such a buffet.

2347
01:34:54,476 --> 01:34:58,055
And it did not show me my US dollar balance.

2348
01:34:58,315 --> 01:34:59,215
I didn't know if it was or not,

2349
01:34:59,275 --> 01:35:01,035
but it didn't surprise me that it didn't.

2350
01:35:01,135 --> 01:35:02,195
But I still had the question,

2351
01:35:02,255 --> 01:35:03,255
how do I access my dollars?

2352
01:35:03,935 --> 01:35:06,155
And then Shazan pointed me to a test flight

2353
01:35:06,155 --> 01:35:08,476
with the old version or another version of Lava.

2354
01:35:08,675 --> 01:35:09,575
I installed that.

2355
01:35:09,915 --> 01:35:11,315
And then it still showed zero,

2356
01:35:11,315 --> 01:35:14,315
but then it eventually showed my somehow...

2357
01:35:14,233 --> 01:35:16,653
showed my dollar balance, and I have my dollars back.

2358
01:35:16,913 --> 01:35:20,633
So the TLDR is, none of my money was taken or stolen.

2359
01:35:20,873 --> 01:35:24,713
I had all my money, but it was not a pleasant experience.

2360
01:35:24,793 --> 01:35:26,213
It wasn't a good upgrade experience.

2361
01:35:26,213 --> 01:35:30,593
But actually, my biggest criticism of the product UI itself

2362
01:35:30,593 --> 01:35:36,833
is that it did not explain the self-custody to custodial shift.

2363
01:35:37,333 --> 01:35:38,673
And that's not just some detail.

2364
01:35:39,173 --> 01:35:42,093
It's not like, maybe some customers don't care about that,

2365
01:35:42,093 --> 01:35:47,393
but they're definitely customers who the whole reason they started using lava was the narrative

2366
01:35:47,393 --> 01:35:52,913
including all of us including us as investors and users but like the go back and look at all

2367
01:35:52,913 --> 01:35:58,893
of lava's communications and shazan's communications for years it's been all about self-custody don't

2368
01:35:58,893 --> 01:36:03,593
trust block buy and all these custodians self-custody so that's the narrative it's a super important

2369
01:36:03,593 --> 01:36:09,773
one it's totally fine if a business decides to shift you gotta communicate it so the in-product

2370
01:36:09,773 --> 01:36:11,593
of communication, horrible, should have been done better,

2371
01:36:11,813 --> 01:36:12,673
should be a lesson learned.

2372
01:36:13,773 --> 01:36:15,093
And then, two,

2373
01:36:15,393 --> 01:36:17,933
the DLCs,

2374
01:36:18,293 --> 01:36:18,973
this technology,

2375
01:36:19,533 --> 01:36:21,913
he's saying it has critical vulnerabilities,

2376
01:36:22,133 --> 01:36:23,213
security vulnerabilities.

2377
01:36:24,173 --> 01:36:25,713
He's saying things

2378
01:36:25,713 --> 01:36:27,853
that I don't think are true.

2379
01:36:28,033 --> 01:36:29,553
I don't know, though. I'd like to understand.

2380
01:36:29,753 --> 01:36:31,693
He's saying that the oracles

2381
01:36:31,693 --> 01:36:33,533
can equivocate.

2382
01:36:33,533 --> 01:36:35,393
The whole point of DLCs is that

2383
01:36:35,393 --> 01:36:36,833
oracles cannot equivocate.

2384
01:36:37,353 --> 01:36:38,553
What does it mean to equivocate?

2385
01:36:38,553 --> 01:36:40,213
so with

2386
01:36:40,213 --> 01:36:42,193
the hallmark of DLCs

2387
01:36:42,193 --> 01:36:42,933
one is that their

2388
01:36:42,933 --> 01:36:45,333
privacy is preserved

2389
01:36:45,333 --> 01:36:46,573
and two they can't equivocate

2390
01:36:46,573 --> 01:36:47,733
so if you're the Oracle

2391
01:36:47,733 --> 01:36:48,173
and you're saying

2392
01:36:48,173 --> 01:36:49,013
the price of Bitcoin

2393
01:36:49,013 --> 01:36:50,313
is $75,000 or whatever

2394
01:36:50,313 --> 01:36:52,193
you publish that

2395
01:36:52,193 --> 01:36:53,233
as like a signature

2396
01:36:53,233 --> 01:36:54,013
for the world

2397
01:36:54,013 --> 01:36:55,213
and every smart contract

2398
01:36:55,213 --> 01:36:56,593
that happens to be using

2399
01:36:56,593 --> 01:36:57,333
you as the Oracle

2400
01:36:57,333 --> 01:36:58,233
then uses that

2401
01:36:58,233 --> 01:36:59,133
but you don't know

2402
01:36:59,133 --> 01:37:00,133
which smart contracts

2403
01:37:00,133 --> 01:37:00,733
are using it

2404
01:37:00,733 --> 01:37:02,013
so yeah you can't

2405
01:37:02,013 --> 01:37:02,913
like tell mine

2406
01:37:02,913 --> 01:37:04,293
that it's $95,000

2407
01:37:04,293 --> 01:37:05,153
and his contract

2408
01:37:05,153 --> 01:37:05,853
that it's $100,000

2409
01:37:05,853 --> 01:37:06,713
you can't equivocate

2410
01:37:06,713 --> 01:37:08,173
so you can be wrong

2411
01:37:08,173 --> 01:37:10,273
or lie, but it applies to everyone.

2412
01:37:11,653 --> 01:37:12,173
But

2413
01:37:12,173 --> 01:37:13,773
I don't know. I don't really

2414
01:37:13,773 --> 01:37:14,093
understand

2415
01:37:14,093 --> 01:37:18,173
the DLC vulnerabilities.

2416
01:37:19,073 --> 01:37:19,633
All I'll say is

2417
01:37:19,633 --> 01:37:21,773
it wouldn't surprise me

2418
01:37:21,773 --> 01:37:24,053
if Lava, the company, has

2419
01:37:24,053 --> 01:37:25,813
discovered DLC

2420
01:37:25,813 --> 01:37:27,953
drawbacks. Maybe it doesn't work well

2421
01:37:27,953 --> 01:37:29,733
with the line of credit product that he

2422
01:37:29,733 --> 01:37:31,933
just launched. In fact,

2423
01:37:31,993 --> 01:37:33,613
some DLC engineers have told me

2424
01:37:33,613 --> 01:37:45,534
separately that it doesn work well for the line of credit product That doesn surprise me I not aware of any of these vulnerabilities but that should be it would be it would first of all just be a kind gesture

2425
01:37:45,534 --> 01:37:47,834
to the DLC developer community

2426
01:37:47,834 --> 01:37:48,934
saying like,

2427
01:37:49,314 --> 01:37:50,334
here's what didn't work.

2428
01:37:50,754 --> 01:37:51,494
Here are some vulnerabilities.

2429
01:37:51,494 --> 01:37:53,634
And if the vulnerabilities

2430
01:37:53,634 --> 01:37:55,854
are putting people's money at risk,

2431
01:37:55,974 --> 01:37:58,874
that should be responsibly disclosed.

2432
01:37:58,974 --> 01:37:59,414
Right, right.

2433
01:37:59,774 --> 01:38:01,594
So whether it's responsibly disclosed

2434
01:38:01,594 --> 01:38:02,634
or publicly disclosed,

2435
01:38:02,694 --> 01:38:03,514
whatever's appropriate,

2436
01:38:03,514 --> 01:38:09,594
that that would be a kind gesture but also help with lava's pr that wasn't done either then there's

2437
01:38:09,594 --> 01:38:14,974
communication to just like on social media on x like he's getting blown up lava's getting blown up

2438
01:38:14,974 --> 01:38:22,354
lots of hate everyone's hating them it is is bred distrust like no one on social media right now

2439
01:38:22,354 --> 01:38:28,874
trusts shazan or lava that's very bad if you're going to i mean for any business but let alone

2440
01:38:28,874 --> 01:38:31,894
one that is now going to custody your Bitcoin.

2441
01:38:32,434 --> 01:38:33,914
You want to have a trust.

2442
01:38:34,074 --> 01:38:35,434
You want to be trusted, right?

2443
01:38:35,514 --> 01:38:38,914
And you gain trust by good, proper communications.

2444
01:38:39,814 --> 01:38:39,934
Yeah.

2445
01:38:40,034 --> 01:38:43,134
And I just want to say, I mean, like I spoke a little bit with Shazan on this stuff.

2446
01:38:43,174 --> 01:38:45,494
And I think, you know, I don't understand the DLC stuff too.

2447
01:38:45,494 --> 01:38:49,094
I would love to hear from people like Taj or people that actually are deep in DLC world

2448
01:38:49,094 --> 01:38:49,454
as well.

2449
01:38:49,534 --> 01:38:50,294
There's other engineers.

2450
01:38:50,874 --> 01:38:53,714
Perhaps that would be interesting for them all to have a public discussion and talk about

2451
01:38:53,714 --> 01:38:55,494
like, what are the drawbacks of DLCs?

2452
01:38:55,534 --> 01:38:56,754
Is this something we can fix moving forward?

2453
01:38:56,774 --> 01:38:57,974
Because I still want DLCs to work.

2454
01:38:57,974 --> 01:39:25,914
I will say, you know, one of Shazan's points, I think is like a fair business point, which is that most people don't care and the big money doesn't care. And I think that's probably right for a lot of, you know, what we've seen. That's why BlockFi got to be a big business. That's why Three Arrows got to be a big business. And all of those companies blew up. So in my mind, he's right. Everything you said, he may or may not be right. But like, regardless, you know, 95% of users don't care. There's at least three users here who did care. There's a lot more people that do care. You can't just like make that shift. Yeah.

2455
01:39:25,914 --> 01:39:36,294
One of the comments here, which is a good one, is like probably, you know, what should have happened or made a better decision is like this just winding down the lava, like creating a new brand.

2456
01:39:36,614 --> 01:39:42,694
I mean, it could be the same company, but create a new brand, a new product, introduce that, and then just sunset lava.

2457
01:39:43,194 --> 01:39:45,114
That would have been a way better approach, I think.

2458
01:39:45,114 --> 01:39:50,274
And then also, and then like part of the public communication should be like, here is why we're making this.

2459
01:39:50,394 --> 01:39:54,714
I know for the last four years I've been saying self-custody, self-custody, self-custody.

2460
01:39:55,294 --> 01:39:56,934
But here's what we learned, right?

2461
01:39:57,134 --> 01:40:11,054
We learned that we still believe it a huge market I would like to see this essay still Shazana if you listening write this essay Please We still believe it a huge market Yeah That why we raised a lot of money sort of demonstrating that others believe it a huge market

2462
01:40:11,474 --> 01:40:13,014
Two, self-custody.

2463
01:40:13,014 --> 01:40:15,234
Our customer base that we've learned about,

2464
01:40:15,374 --> 01:40:16,914
they don't care about self-custody

2465
01:40:16,914 --> 01:40:18,294
and they don't want to self-custody.

2466
01:40:18,414 --> 01:40:19,954
It's limiting us as a business.

2467
01:40:20,234 --> 01:40:21,154
I'm just speculating, by the way,

2468
01:40:21,214 --> 01:40:23,294
but I can find that to be plausible.

2469
01:40:23,954 --> 01:40:27,414
And then three, also, DLC technology,

2470
01:40:27,554 --> 01:40:28,714
it didn't work out for these reasons,

2471
01:40:28,714 --> 01:40:30,574
line of credit or whatever. He just explained that.

2472
01:40:31,094 --> 01:40:32,674
So we're shifting to custodial

2473
01:40:32,674 --> 01:40:34,734
because that's where we think the product market

2474
01:40:34,734 --> 01:40:36,694
fits going to be. And then

2475
01:40:36,694 --> 01:40:38,994
at least it's a plausible, reasonable

2476
01:40:38,994 --> 01:40:40,734
business and product story.

2477
01:40:40,994 --> 01:40:43,014
And there's still going to be some Bitcoiners

2478
01:40:43,014 --> 01:40:44,674
who hate on it

2479
01:40:44,674 --> 01:40:46,674
because it's self-custody or the highway.

2480
01:40:47,234 --> 01:40:48,794
But at least for everyone else

2481
01:40:48,794 --> 01:40:50,754
who's a little more pragmatic, understands

2482
01:40:50,754 --> 01:40:52,414
what this is, as opposed to

2483
01:40:52,414 --> 01:40:54,094
when you don't communicate,

2484
01:40:54,374 --> 01:40:56,714
all that happens is speculation. And a lot of the

2485
01:40:56,714 --> 01:41:00,814
speculation is like i mean people are like showing pictures of sam bagman freed and shazan

2486
01:41:00,814 --> 01:41:07,674
in a tweet that's horrible that's horrible pr and and in like uh that it's horrible for shazan like

2487
01:41:07,674 --> 01:41:14,514
so uh i think the communication should be much much better um but maybe i mean we're way over

2488
01:41:14,514 --> 01:41:22,314
but maybe we should try to do our best to speculate why why did this shift occur why is it why is it

2489
01:41:22,314 --> 01:41:28,174
still going to be a successful business. I guess one could be that around the custody, like the

2490
01:41:28,174 --> 01:41:34,114
customers simply don't want to do it, right? Okay. That could be plausible. And then two, maybe around

2491
01:41:34,114 --> 01:41:42,294
raising all this money, maybe they required that it be because the Bitcoin's held with

2492
01:41:42,294 --> 01:41:50,734
qualified custodians versus self-custody where people, it's like less tested. People could lose

2493
01:41:50,734 --> 01:41:52,594
their Bitcoin because they don't practice good,

2494
01:41:53,334 --> 01:41:54,374
you know, have good practices.

2495
01:41:55,014 --> 01:41:56,394
DLC is unproven technology.

2496
01:41:56,694 --> 01:41:58,274
Maybe there's reasons why that,

2497
01:41:58,394 --> 01:42:00,954
the lenders didn't want to lend $200 million.

2498
01:42:02,054 --> 01:42:02,454
Yeah.

2499
01:42:02,794 --> 01:42:03,794
I think these are all fair speculation.

2500
01:42:03,914 --> 01:42:04,994
I don't really think it's our place to speculate.

2501
01:42:05,134 --> 01:42:06,374
I think, Shazan, if you're listening,

2502
01:42:06,474 --> 01:42:08,874
you should like explain all this in an essay or a video.

2503
01:42:08,874 --> 01:42:11,094
If you'd like to read the essay, watch the video,

2504
01:42:11,354 --> 01:42:12,434
we'd obviously be happy to.

2505
01:42:12,434 --> 01:42:13,934
I mean, I think the reality of the situation,

2506
01:42:14,014 --> 01:42:16,194
one thing that we do know is that for better for us,

2507
01:42:16,214 --> 01:42:17,954
I think this is true from what I've seen with, you know,

2508
01:42:17,954 --> 01:42:19,374
certain like multi-sign companies,

2509
01:42:19,374 --> 01:42:20,114
like you know

2510
01:42:20,114 --> 01:42:20,654
Unchain

2511
01:42:20,654 --> 01:42:21,734
very principled company

2512
01:42:21,734 --> 01:42:23,394
but the reality is

2513
01:42:23,394 --> 01:42:24,274
as far as I know

2514
01:42:24,274 --> 01:42:35,115
maybe things are changing they building a good business for sure but like there a reason that like people would rather just go BlackRock and like whatever have whoever custing for them That just because that what people are used to

2515
01:42:35,175 --> 01:42:36,175
Maybe that changes one day.

2516
01:42:36,575 --> 01:42:38,435
You know, there's certainly a segment of people in the world

2517
01:42:38,435 --> 01:42:40,515
that want self-custody or multi-sig.

2518
01:42:41,035 --> 01:42:43,175
That segment also probably does have more

2519
01:42:43,175 --> 01:42:44,715
sort of disproportionate amounts of wealth.

2520
01:42:44,815 --> 01:42:45,595
They got into Bitcoin early.

2521
01:42:45,715 --> 01:42:47,315
So it's not like, it's not a nothing burger.

2522
01:42:47,755 --> 01:42:49,015
But like, sadly, you know,

2523
01:42:49,055 --> 01:42:51,035
the reason Coinbase is successful is a casino.

2524
01:42:51,515 --> 01:42:53,315
The reason three arrows in BlockFi blew up.

2525
01:42:53,315 --> 01:42:54,715
and also I just gotta say

2526
01:42:54,715 --> 01:42:56,475
it was not a helpful thing

2527
01:42:56,475 --> 01:42:57,215
as part of your launch

2528
01:42:57,215 --> 01:42:57,495
you'd be like

2529
01:42:57,495 --> 01:42:58,535
we brought on world class

2530
01:42:58,535 --> 01:42:59,715
investor Anthony Poppliano

2531
01:42:59,715 --> 01:43:00,295
like bro

2532
01:43:00,295 --> 01:43:02,375
like you can't be tone deaf

2533
01:43:02,375 --> 01:43:03,495
like this is the famous

2534
01:43:03,495 --> 01:43:04,235
to the moon

2535
01:43:04,235 --> 01:43:05,435
like I don't know

2536
01:43:05,435 --> 01:43:06,555
I hope for the best

2537
01:43:06,555 --> 01:43:07,475
Shazan has a lot

2538
01:43:07,475 --> 01:43:08,335
LockFi champion

2539
01:43:08,335 --> 01:43:08,995
yeah bro

2540
01:43:08,995 --> 01:43:09,755
like what the fuck

2541
01:43:09,755 --> 01:43:10,975
like literally this man

2542
01:43:10,975 --> 01:43:11,655
was sitting there going

2543
01:43:11,655 --> 01:43:13,255
and almost whacks his wife

2544
01:43:13,255 --> 01:43:13,755
in the head

2545
01:43:13,755 --> 01:43:14,495
as he's like

2546
01:43:14,495 --> 01:43:15,435
sitting there talking about

2547
01:43:15,435 --> 01:43:16,035
BlockFi the moon

2548
01:43:16,035 --> 01:43:17,055
so I would just say

2549
01:43:17,055 --> 01:43:18,435
it's tone deaf at best

2550
01:43:18,435 --> 01:43:19,875
and you know

2551
01:43:19,875 --> 01:43:21,375
it's on you to come out there

2552
01:43:21,375 --> 01:43:22,415
and right the wrongs

2553
01:43:22,415 --> 01:43:23,075
and like explain this

2554
01:43:23,075 --> 01:43:26,035
to people. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. I will personally say I still think there's

2555
01:43:26,035 --> 01:43:30,335
opportunity for the business. Clearly, he's shown he's a very savvy fundraiser. Clearly,

2556
01:43:30,335 --> 01:43:34,835
they have a good team and I appreciate their team has helped me a lot with some of my issues,

2557
01:43:34,975 --> 01:43:38,675
handholding. I got nothing but great service there, so I can't say anything on that.

2558
01:43:38,855 --> 01:43:42,975
I'll also tell you, I mean, and you probably know this, but from having spent a lot of time with

2559
01:43:42,975 --> 01:43:49,335
him over the last whatever, four or five years, I do believe he is a principal Bitcoiner who

2560
01:43:49,335 --> 01:43:55,355
cares about self-custody. I don't think he's just talking a talk. I think he started to achieve

2561
01:43:55,355 --> 01:43:59,195
that. And I think there's something along the way that caused him to change his mind about

2562
01:43:59,195 --> 01:44:04,195
maybe it's the marketability or the viability of doing that as initially planned today.

2563
01:44:04,195 --> 01:44:08,015
I mean, folks can speculate on that as they will. I'm not going to take a stance on that. I don't

2564
01:44:08,015 --> 01:44:12,695
know. What I will say is the way I look at it now is like, and Shazan has also said he wants to do

2565
01:44:12,695 --> 01:44:16,175
things like I asked about proof of reserves. He doesn't believe in proof of reserves. Fine. Although

2566
01:44:16,175 --> 01:44:18,855
I still think proof of reserves would be better. He says he wants to get audits. Great. Let's see

2567
01:44:18,855 --> 01:44:22,835
the audits. I would just say, you know, my position is it's still a good business opportunity.

2568
01:44:23,335 --> 01:44:27,255
We all invested. I invested with DLCs in mind. I want someone to do something like DLCs. If you're

2569
01:44:27,255 --> 01:44:31,595
still thinking about the non-custodial, that's what I personally want. And I would say, look at

2570
01:44:31,595 --> 01:44:37,275
it as of right now, it's a business with a lot of money and a smart team, but it's like block five.

2571
01:44:37,655 --> 01:44:39,915
And, you know, you can do with that what you will. And most people don't care.

2572
01:44:41,835 --> 01:44:47,575
I think that's a good way to wrap it up. All right. I have nothing to add.

2573
01:44:47,575 --> 01:44:52,095
yeah sounds good all right till next week okay okay see you guys