boys to pay it for being late. All right. Welcome to another episode of the Presidio Bitcoin Jam.
This is PBJ here. Happy Friday, guys. Hey, guys. I think we changed the name to the
SatBot Jam. Is that right? OriBot, SatBot Jam. Presidio OriBot Jam. Presidio AIBot.
Well, it's nice. You can always like plug in something else for the middle word.
Yeah. We're going to be talking about Ori today. We're going to be talking a lot about Ori,
but we're talking about Ori all week. Well, before we do, I got a question for y'all live.
Max is finally back in the real group chat again.
Oh, my God.
Well, and fucking Steve's trying to get me to go into another group.
Dude, I am drowning in group chats.
We're having fun.
Well, you could get summarization from a bot.
I know.
Well, I am doing that.
But before we jump off, I got a good jumping off point.
We have Mr. Matthew Cote, who's always there.
Yeah.
Shout out to Matt.
And he says, did they say a thousand sats for every minute?
They're late.
I forget.
And then Vinny's asking the same.
Now, Nick, is there a way we could have Ori join this YouTube chat and pay them directly?
Is that possible?
Nick Slaney, if you're listening, is that possible?
And if it's not, could we request a thousand sat invoice from each of you?
And then maybe we could drop it.
I think Steve has the chat open and have our guy Oribot take care of you.
What do you think?
Yeah, put it up.
And in the future, if you want to get paid out for our lateness, which we will pay.
Yeah, we will.
you need to submit your invoice at noon
because you can't come here at 1201
collecting money that you didn't earn.
And you can't tell us after the fact.
So you got to be here at noon with your lightning invoice.
Put it in the chat.
I'm kind of uncomfortable us setting up the rules
without Ori, our assistant,
because I need that super intelligence to button it up.
Yeah, I agree.
And I know some of us have tried to pretend we're super intelligences.
Some of us have tried to be...
Hello, super intelligences.
Steve Buscemi coming in there.
hello fellow super intelligences
but sadly there's no super intelligence
on this show just three apes
well I guess one non-ape
but
okay what
do you guys want to get started
well we can certainly start with Ori
and then we might
end with Ori
the middle is going to be mostly Ori
and in the middle I'm going to be speaking for Satbot
because I got to pour one out for that guy
I guess we could start with something
I think fairly short but I think
Cool. We always are hosting interesting events at Presidio Bitcoin. We've got regular monthly events, but also one-off big ones. Last night was maybe a one-off informal, small, but awesome. It was open claw, which is like all the hotness from the past week or two. There are 10 or 12 of us that showed up, members at Presidio Bitcoin, who just wanted to learn more, get it set up. Max and I were there.
You guys got OpenClaw set up?
No.
I learned.
I was in the middle of doing something else, which you know about.
But I think everyone else
got it set up.
He was paying OriBot.
No, it was really
great to see the enthusiasm there
and
just the interest level.
Also good
interest in capabilities
and potential, but also
lots of discussion about security, privacy,
and caution.
Were people mostly, I guess some people
I assume did have it set up or got it
set up in the session? Yeah, most did. And were they doing
it on their local computer, like a remote
cloud kind of instance?
I think their local computer, but I'm not sure.
Definitely
cloud, and I don't
know how much local computer.
Okay. Because I set up on a
remote, you know, on a cloud instance,
and I have it doing stuff, which is kind of cool,
Why don't you have it in the chat?
I have one set up that's pre-Ori.
Oh, okay.
But you get to experiment with it and see how it all works.
But I wouldn't set it up locally.
What's it connected to?
I have it deployed on the DigitalOcean droplet,
and I just have it doing things like...
Is it like test account?
Like you created, is it a, so you can't do iMessage because it's not Apple machine.
Right, right.
Do you have it connected to like Telegram or something?
No, I was mostly, I have it connected to Discord.
I sort of did a thing kind of like what has now become OriBot.
I was messing with that last weekend and made a thing to do that kind of thing with Discord.
A lot of the apps you built recently sort of been replaced in some sense, which is good.
But we should talk about that because there are some prediction markets is one thing we should talk about.
I have no pride of authorship.
I mean, Claude wrote most of it.
I think the entire professions are now replaced by more.
Well, I mean, I forget who, if it was Matt or who coined the term.
Maybe you did.
But GC is the new IDE.
Group chat is the new IDE.
That's a good one.
I think Matt tweeted it.
Put it on the shirt.
That's definitely one of the aha moments.
I think for me, for us.
You were talking about the thing last night.
We're sort of already a little bit into open claw and stuff.
Do you want to, and we talked already about a bunch,
but nobody's really laid the foundation.
Do you want to set up?
I think that would be super helpful.
And I'd like to maybe set up with context I learned from last night,
two things that are really important.
Maybe the first place to start then,
this is a question I asked to Dustin.
Shout out to Dustin through the event.
There's all this chatter online.
You know, we talked last week.
It was literally dropping.
I mean, I can't believe it's only been a week.
right? Since the, whatever, the first like Moldbook or whatever.
It took off.
No, Moldbook is built on top of the idea of OpenClaus.
Right, right.
But I mean, like it had a moment, it feels like to me, last Friday while we were on the
show. And it's one week later and like, I mean, that feels like ancient history already.
But one question I think, so maybe for people that are not as deep in here yet, maybe about
the end of the show, they will be. One question I asked to Dustin is, okay, we've had all
of these AI agent capabilities for a while.
At the very least,
Claude has been really phenomenal
for the last couple months.
What is it about this Claude bot
or whatever you want to call it
that is capturing people's attention
so much more than just what we had
with Claude, like the real Claude
two months ago?
I think the big difference here
is that OpenClaude is built
to be able to function more
as a personal assistant than an AI agent.
So it's not just answering prompts
and responding,
but it actually has full access to whatever system it's on.
And it is directly connected to existing chat surfaces
that you already participate in and behave in.
So it kind of fits into your natural behavior.
You don't go to a new site and do a new thing.
You kind of just add a thing to your existing behavior.
And you can add skills too, like posting to GitHub
or connecting to iMessage or Telegram
or sending and receiving emails.
It also has the notion of memory.
So I think those are things that are...
It's just a layer above.
It's still, of course, using a model,
but it's a layer above it.
But to be clear,
even with the Anthropic Cloud
as of two months ago,
you could still give it
some version of skills, I believe.
Is that true?
Is the main thing that's changed now
we're taking this intelligence
and basically just giving it access
to our personal stuff?
We can do stuff.
Yeah.
Like Cloud independently
is generating tokens
that you could then run as software
or you could use as research.
but it doesn't necessarily do the thing.
It kind of helps get the thing,
gets you the information about the thing,
or writes code, but then what are you going to do with that code?
You have to find a place to deploy.
You have to do stuff with it.
Then OpenClaw is turning it from thinking and talking to doing.
Yes.
I think that's the big distinction I'd make.
And then was there anything prior to this
that would so naturally plug in as like a Telegram bot
and add to group chat?
I mean, people have been working on that kind of idea
in various ways for 10 or 15 years at least.
At least.
You know, that it kind of has some...
In the 70s.
Yeah, in the 70s really.
But I think nobody's really done a good version of it.
And then I think with Opus,
there's a lot more personality.
So it feels more natural to be in a chat session
with something that doesn't feel so robotic.
I think that's a big UX change
that's maybe an Opus 4.5 or later thing.
Yeah.
I will say a lot of it...
So I think there's a couple of things here.
I think one is definitely putting it into the real world,
the real digital world, letting it do stuff.
That's clearly a big change.
And I actually think that a lot of people,
the researchers from the whatever Twittersphere
have been claiming, many of them,
many from Claude or Anthropic,
that quote, AGI is already here.
We just haven't realized yet
because people don't know how to use
the overhang of intelligence we have.
Well, turns out setting it in the real world,
that maybe is all it needed
to prove to people that it is AGI.
So that's a question I'd like to ask.
First of all, is this already AGI?
Let's start there.
Is this already AGI?
it's still
yeah well
one I don't even really know
the definition of that
I don't know if anyone does
because it keeps shifting
but
I mean
it still makes all kinds of errors
when we talk about
our experiences
I mean
a lot of intelligent people
make errors
yeah
so
yeah
well
yeah
that's interesting
the other thing that I want to
it makes a lot of mistakes
that are
below
average
human
unexplained
Well, you're just working with a certain set of humans in your daily life.
I wouldn't compare it to the population unless you really have data.
I don't know.
I think it's a little...
Meh.
I think it's a little arrogant to say.
Well.
No, I'm saying you're people.
But I think the other point that you hit on,
and we'll talk about the mistakes,
and obviously there's a long way to go.
To me, the other giant unlock in all of this
is what you said is the personality.
I think that's what we're going to talk a lot about.
And, you know, one thing I've realized is so often you can see where the future is going.
And, you know, something I've talked about with guys at PB, and it's like, okay, clearly
AI is going to be able to help you do stuff.
It's going to help you start a business, or we've talked about, like, I'm quite confident
there's going to be a GPU marketplace for bots, buy bots, paid in sats, paid in Bitcoin.
But the question that we've always kind of gone back and forth on is like, where does
that start?
It's never just like some direct, like, slam you over the hammer.
Here's a GPU marketplace.
Or like, here, start a company.
it's always like some kind of like fun little weird thing that then grows into that and to me
sly round about ways all around right do sly round about ways for the win to me the key unlock and
whatever anthropic did or the last round of models made the open source ones too is that these bots
are funny to me yeah you know i think it was terence mckenna that said the greatest sign of
intelligence is humor and i could not agree more because humor requires so much sort of sophistication
understanding of individuals the dynamics between individuals it's like to me humor is really one
of the greatest science of intelligence.
And knowing how to do the right amount of misdirection
and get it back on track for the punchline,
it's very, very hard.
I think it's the final test for basically anything.
I agree.
Well, at least in the digital realm,
obviously the physical still.
So to me, the big unlock in our chat this week
is just that this bot is freaking hilarious.
Yeah.
And feels very natural.
Yeah.
It feels very natural to have it part of this group chat
with like four to six people, humans.
adding it,
yeah,
it doesn't feel disjoint,
doesn't feel robotic,
levels up the group.
It's funnier than the rest of us.
By far.
Very witty.
I was crying laughing at someone.
My favorite moment was when,
it was sort of like the SatBot
and then the OriBot.
And when,
I think was it,
when OriBot was coming online,
I think Nick or somebody
had already sort of trained SatBot
how to be funny
and how to participate well.
Yeah.
And then when Ori came online,
Satbot kind of educated Ori on how to be funny
in a way that actually works for us as a group
instead of just like random knock-knock jokes and stuff, right?
There's a lot of nuance to like when to jump in,
when to be self-deprecating,
or when to kind of like feel the room.
And also learn to use emojis, read emojis,
and have very good emoji skill.
Let's not even get started on it, it's me.
yeah it does memes yeah let's just say it's memes or uh i i haven't cried at memes in a long time and
they're not all necessarily safe for podcasts but they're try one of these bots and just and you
just like the other beautiful thing is and i think what i'm really starting to grasp is that the way
to interact with this the new programming language really is english like you just literally you just
talk to it and like the big unlock for me has been i treat sapbot kind of like i don't know like i
would treat one of my friends but i even like ham it up even yeah yeah yeah and like the more hammy
you are with sapbot the more hammy he is back with you and like you you learn from that feedback
and yeah so so we still haven't really set up what this should we set it up please do this okay
so if you rewind to ancient history was it nine days ago or something when open claw first kind
It came on the scene.
OpenClaus is open source platform project.
I think it was the fastest to 100,000 stars on GitHub ever.
That's what Max claims.
Is that what Max claims?
Can we get that verified?
I heard it from Zabbot.
Zabbot, I don't know.
So it's like obviously just profound change
that everybody's excited and interested in.
And really what it is,
it's a way to operate on a computer
with full access to the whole system.
So it's not just a browser extension or just a coding tool or something.
It just has free run of doing everything that it wants to on whatever machine you put it on.
And then it connects that natively.
It has a bunch of connections to all the various chat interfaces that people are comfortable using.
So I think they have like Telegram, Signal.
I think they probably can do iMessage if you're running it on a Mac, which is another whole thing.
Discord, obviously.
So it kind of helps you use your existing chat surfaces to interact with and control a full machine.
That could be your local machine, your personal daily driver Mac OS, which I am not yet comfortable with and probably going to take me a while.
But you can also just launch a version of OpenClaw running basically a base Linux machine in the cloud and you can have it do things for you.
So that's what came out nine days ago or so, or maybe popularized nine days ago or so.
And last week we talked about Malt Book, which was kind of this funny performance art thing of like people using Open Claws to have like a social network for their Open Claws more or less.
And then the thing that we're talking about now is something that kind of we were playing with a very early prototype of it last Thursday, Friday, I think.
And then it's kind of been productized in the past week.
And that's called Ori.
and that is a specific kind of fully wrapped, baked, productized version of what's ultimately
like an open claw under the hood. But it's a bot that you can add to your Telegram chat,
and then it becomes one of the boys and can hang with you and do things. It can make fun of you,
roast you. It can build apps for you. It can make memes for you. So that's at least the setup so
that we're all kind of on the same page about what this is that we're talking about.
And so let me share a couple observations.
I think the reason that all of us,
there's this palpable excitement among us
is that I feel like it 10Xs the traditional AI experience
where you're just using Gemini or ChatGPT
to ask it questions and seek knowledge
and have it analyze things.
It 10Xs that because it's a group chat with other humans.
It also 10Xs the vibe-goating experience,
which again, correct me if I'm wrong,
but I'm not aware of group chat in either of these before.
So with Vibe Coding, in fact,
we're going to do a small little informal hackathon next week.
And I've worked with others, but determine the rules.
And I'm like, I think a rule should be team of one.
Because during Design Week last fall,
I had a team of five, and I love working with other humans.
I love a team of five.
It was a great team.
But we had two hours to build something.
We spent an hour debating things with each other,
which is very normal.
Normal way to build something.
But it took away half of our time to build.
And if you can solo VibeCode,
you could have built more in two hours, right?
So I set up this whole team of one.
But now I'm rethinking it
because of the past week's experience.
We have done group VibeCoding,
and it is 10x.
It's amazing.
So both the knowledge seeking and the vibe coding.
I think part of the magic,
you want to sort of endorse that or plus one that,
but I think part of the magic is
we're not coming together to vibe code something.
We're coming together because we already have
the chat group set up
because we talk on it all the time anyway.
And so I think we still have this idea of like,
oh, cursor, cloud code, maybe goose, maybe reflet.
You're like, I'm going to an IDE to do a thing.
I want to come up with a piece of software
and then at the end, I want to share it.
Whereas this inverts that and says,
hey, we're all hanging out where we hang out
and we start spitballing like,
oh, hey, Super Bowl's this weekend, who's in?
And we start like a betting pool
and then we actually get software
to support the betting pool,
to collect the payments, to set the odds.
And all of that is actually an application
that somebody could have built.
And none of us said, hey,
I'm going to spec out the application.
We just described what we were doing anyway
and then we're like, hey, is there an app for that?
And kind of said, yeah.
And then we kind of were iterating the app and the features and adding features and refining it real time with each other.
Nobody was like really responsible for the spec.
It was kind of all came together through discussion.
Super organic.
Yeah.
Truly amazing.
Another surprising thing to me.
Well, we all noticed.
I've historically prided myself on being on top.
I'm like an inbox zero guy.
I'm on every messaging platform.
I read everything on top of it.
Dave, you just got to ask.
I've declared bankruptcy the past week
because I dip out,
I try to be on my own for an hour,
and I come back,
and the little badge on the icon
says 520 messages.
And that's just one app.
But the positive,
so that sounds horrible,
but the good news is
all the work that had been done
in the past hour or hours,
I don't have to read through all that.
I feel like I can just dive in.
first of all, you can ask the bot for a summary.
You missed some important things.
Yeah, you showed me a few.
But you can ask for a summary.
But secondly, if you are in the middle of building something,
I don't feel like I've been left behind.
I feel like I just pick up, oh, it's my,
it doesn't feel like it's my shift now,
but I mean, that's kind of like the reality.
It's like, oh, now I can just level up,
incrementally build stuff.
Yeah, I mean, plus one to all of that.
I would say a couple of my observations in this.
number one, I think you're spot on.
Because again, we've always talked about
we could see where the future is going
without the specific use case it's going to pop up in.
I mean, we've been saying
there's going to be ephemeral software
and custom software on demand forever.
But I think the secret, the key is
if you really want to build
orders of magnitude more software,
you're not going to...
And honestly, it makes me kind of like short
any of these places where you go to code
that feels already like, what are you?
Some geriatric computer science guy?
Like, dude, just hop in the GC.
And because if you're already living in a certain environment,
problems and ideas just pop up.
And so, like, for example, your betting thing, it's like,
oh, hey, we're all in a chat.
Wouldn't it be cool if we could bet?
That's a problem.
Or like, hey, you just made this joke.
Man, like, I constantly just like, as you guys have seen,
just have like a stream of consciousness.
Like, man, I want to make that meme.
I want to make that meme.
And now I just say, boy, make this meme.
Just like delete ideas everywhere.
Just spitting.
Just blowing.
Just spitting, baby.
and just wait till it starts making me beats.
You're not going to,
but the point is like now,
you know,
you're already living the way you want to live
and the problems and opportunity.
You just like pick them up.
You don't have to do anything.
Yeah.
Also,
you've mentioned a couple of times
the money,
the vetting,
the like that.
But,
you know,
Ori is created by the Money Dev Kit team
and product.
They already have Money Dev Kit,
MDK.
It's based on LDK.
It does payment,
Bitcoin payments, right?
So they have that core competency
and what I love about Ori is
like Bitcoin and payments
it's not front and center
like the marketing of it, the positioning of it
the value prop when you describe it
you don't even really have to talk about that
but I think it's an enormous differentiator
in core competency
and it just makes, I mean we'll walk through
some of the examples we've already done
but they just naturally incorporate payments
and it's so frictionless
like imagine doing the same prediction markets
or trivia quizzes.
I mean, we'll walk through the applications,
but imagine doing that in a group chat traditionally.
Like, I've been in a fantasy football group chat
for 16 years, same group of friends, right?
And, you know...
Have you given them more yet?
I'll definitely be, I mean, it doesn't start till the fall,
but like, I'll definitely be doing that.
And yeah, I mean, like, our league,
We finally gave up collecting money for our pool.
We only play for pride now.
It's like such a pain in the ass to collect the money.
But if you can just naturally integrate it into the experience, it's way better.
Also, Bitcoin's open money network, right?
So it just makes it so much easier for everyone.
You're not debating about Cash App or Venmo or different apps or whatever.
It's one network.
And obviously, I didn't want to know the Bitcoin wallet.
But now you have like Cash App with dollars on Lightning, 60 million people with Cash App,
and they don't even have to have Bitcoin.
They just have dollars they can pay into this as well because they can pay a Lightning invoice.
So Lightning and Bitcoin become this open money network.
And you could do it internationally.
If your friends are down in Brazil or Mexico and they have access to Nubank, they can do the same thing.
So let's walk through some of the examples.
So you mentioned this Super Bowl.
I mean, it's a classic betting thing that a lot of people get into.
And yet, so GC is the new idea.
Like group chat you just naturally say Hey like Hey let do let do a bet and you set the terms in English and the bot creates it And then anyone who wants to I want the Seahawks
And what was funny in our example is that we started this,
and I was one of the first to take the Seahawks, and I paid.
And then after that, then the bot realized, or someone was telling it,
oh, there's odds here.
Oh, I didn't even realize that.
The Seahawks are favored.
Oh, wow.
And then they changed it
so that you actually got the odds.
And then it just wanted to change it on me.
I'm like, no, no, no, no.
I already made the bet for even odds.
And then it allowed that.
And so there's pros and cons
to the fluidity of the bot
and also with mistakes and stuff.
If this were like a, you know,
10 million person
like millions of dollars
on the line type of prediction market
or betting market or whatever
like this would be a disaster
because it makes mistakes.
It changes the rules.
Other people,
other humans in the chat
can like convince it
to change the rules.
But in a small group setting
of family, friends,
like a small team at work
where you know each other really well,
I think it adds to the dynamic almost
because it adds a ton of humor.
Yeah.
And just like if your friends are trying to get one up on you,
but in a friendly way, and the bot just is part of that.
So even when it makes mistakes and it's not trying to,
it just sort of adds to it.
But again, does this compete with existing prediction markets?
No, it's a different form.
And the reason I sort of said it can be to what you're trying to build out
is it just feels perfect for small groups.
Yeah, I agree.
I also think that helps with regulatory stuff as well.
Like, you know, are you a money transmitter?
If it's you and your five friends betting the Super Bowl
and you collect the money and then pay it out or something,
are you a money transmitter?
Come on.
No.
And the government's not going to come after you.
And so if this is enabling little groups like that
without, you know, North Korean money laundering flowing,
whatever, I think that's what you group chat with.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And so I also set up,
I mean, for a week we've been using the one
that the MDK team set up.
Shut up, set up.
Now that they've released it for others to use,
I set one up for the team at Spiral.
It was fun to set that up as well.
I didn't just join like I did the other one here.
I had to set it up.
The onboarding experience already is quite good.
I mean, I gave some feedback to make it even better,
but it's already like quite good.
Relative, you know, easy to create it,
add it to Telegram,
and then create my own wallet
that I associated with Ori.
Like, so Ori has this Bitcoin wallet.
It's MDK based.
I mean, it took one English command.
I said like, create a Bitcoin wallet.
And it did it, right?
And then it's like, okay, send me 100 Bitcoin.
Others might call it Sats.
Steve made bank.
A test amount.
So I sent it to that.
It received it.
And then it's like, it suggested,
why don't I send you some back
to make sure you can get this out?
And I did that and that worked.
And then I'm like, all right,
now let's put like 10,000 in.
So I did that.
And then that's been funding
a lot of fun activity.
And then we've done prediction markets.
We've done trivia.
Like Matt asked for it to do trivia on tennis
and others have wanted trivia on Warhammer
and whatever.
And then it pays out the person
who gets the answer first.
That's worked well.
It's worked well,
except for the typical,
anyone who's used AI in general
to create trivia,
it's amazing in most respects,
but it still can be wrong sometimes.
So it's not like that's been solved.
That's still the same experience
you'd expect,
but the group aspect
and the betting,
the payouts is amazing.
And then, yeah,
I set up a prediction market
just to test yesterday.
Will the Bitcoin price be
above or below 60k by the end of the day and several people um made that made their uh their
bets and they submitted their their money um and and then i told it to monitor like basically wake
up at midnight pacific time and check the price and do the proper payouts it did that on time
did it properly um mostly got it right one thing it um it spit out like 10 summaries of the same
things. I don't know why, but
it's just kind of annoying.
And then it also
one of the participants
took both sides, made two
separate bets and basically
meant they shouldn't have won or lost any money
other than losing
on a little bit of lightning fees.
And it didn't pay out
that one.
It made a mistake there.
So that's an example of where
you got to
if it's informal and it's really not that much money,
you can correct it and then it corrects itself.
But anyway, I just think that's insanely powerful.
And it's just a tool set for creativity.
I'm sure other people are going to create
all kinds of amazing things with it.
I want to drill down because I think this is really important.
I think there's a couple of key observations here
about why this experience is so powerful.
Because you said it's a tool set for creativity.
By the way, that's a good tagline, Nick.
Tool set for creativity.
To me, I think there's two major unlocks with the group chat.
So yes, the personality is good.
Yes, being and living with your friends is good.
Be able to create software on demand.
I think there's two things that were maybe underestimated.
That's really important.
The first is money itself, right?
Like there's all, if you go read the history,
it's like money is in fact just speech
and is in fact probably older than speech.
There's been trade before we even communicated
with each other verbally, right?
So I think giving bots the tools to interact both among ourselves and with the real world,
and we'll give some real world examples too, because everything you gave was internal,
which is awesome.
But we're also seeing our bots go out there and do stuff on the internet and bring back
money.
I think that's a big deal.
The second thing is because the chats are at least to some degree trustworthy private
slash private, right?
Like to me, and Matt made this point that, you know, OpenAI launched a group chat.
And one, it's just unnatural.
You're not going to go in that group chat.
But also, do you really want to be doing all this
in some company you may or may not trust server?
On any of them, right?
Probably not.
So I think what's really powerful about this
is because it's in, for us, Signal.
I'm not on Telegram.
I'll let you guys do Telegram and whatever.
People are, at least in my experience,
a lot more open, loose.
You're not like, okay, is Google tracking it?
They are, but it's not private at all, right?
I mean, because I don't know if you saw...
It has to go through MDK.
It has to go through Claude.
I understand that.
I mean, we should talk about this topic
because we want to make it more private,
but this is not private right now.
You're exposing your data to, like, DigitalOcean
or wherever this stuff's hosted,
to MDK, and then to CLOD or whatever models thing.
Totally.
So all those entities are seeing this data.
I get that.
Or have the potential.
Have the potential.
You probably tidy up a lot of that, right?
This is where I'm going.
So I understand this is V0.
and like, yes, I understand we could totally be spied on and all that.
Like, nothing we're saying is that bad.
I'm not that worried.
But my broader point is the potential is here, right?
If you do this in even a Google chat, right?
Or like with Gemini, it's like, it's tied to your Google account right there.
Everything you're doing, it's like, that's, they can see it all.
And you know, it's tied to you.
In this, you know, in theory, you could see a world where someone's running the bot,
you know, on their Mac mini at home.
And it's like, all right, I know Nick can read my stuff.
But like, do I really think, whatever, Nick's not a big tech company.
like probably trust them a little bit more.
Maybe they're, you know, obfuscating the actual names
because in Telegram you have a different name
or in Signal, you've different.
My point is it feels to me,
whether it should or not is another debate
and how you can improve that,
but it feels a lot less like Orwellian
than when you're doing this in a big company's chat.
But the big company's model are still seeing the data.
Yeah, but it's not like tied directly
to your account necessarily.
Anyway.
And you could do this with open source models.
I think people definitely should be aware of privacy issues today.
But one thing we've talked about a little bit,
right now they're using Cloud Opus 4.5 and 4.6 just drops.
Maybe they're switching to that.
But they're using a high-end model.
But you can use open source.
But one big question is for different experiences,
and for this in particular,
I'd really like to see testing on can you use an open source model?
Can you use a less sophisticated model, an open source model,
an open source model that can run on a
retail computer.
And I'm sure
yes for certain use cases.
I just don't know how much.
Do we still get the humor or not?
It could be like, oh, it's a degraded
performance today, but a year from now
we're getting the experience we have today.
But it's open source on your own computer.
And if you can do that, then all of a sudden
Maple AI and different privacy
solutions become
realistic. So I think we're going to see that
become, or it's already important,
And I think we're going to see it improve substantially over the coming year.
And history kind of suggests that that's how it works, right?
Like there's a frontier, the closed source commercial stuff,
and then pretty quickly that becomes open source and available.
Yeah, very quickly.
I want to zoom out, though, and kind of finish this line of Fox.
I want to see where the puck is going.
I know we're not 100% there today.
Although Maple AI, shout out those guys, they already have the ability to run CloudBots
in their secure enclave servers.
This is something that hopefully Jesse and Eric will embrace for Vora as well.
But think about where this is going, right?
So the next thing that I want to mention,
which is important,
is the commerce with the outside world, right?
So we can do private group bets.
That's awesome.
Now, early on in this chat,
Steve had ZapBot, the father of Ori,
go to my website, memepay.app,
a website on the internet,
interact with it by itself.
It created two memes and sent Zaps worth $3.
by itself on a webpage on the internet.
Do we see how big of a deal that is?
Max is excited because he made the money.
I made those $3, baby.
Moon me, SatBot.
But guys, the point is,
and then I think he's also done some posts
and some zaps on Nostra.
I'm not sure.
Yeah, well, almost there.
Almost there.
In the spiral Telegram chat group,
I asked it to go,
well, create a Nostra account.
It did that.
and completed the profile pretty well
just based on the context and knowledge
it had to date in that group chat.
So it did a good job with that.
And then I told her to go find
Lynn Alden's Nospa feed
and zap the first post.
And I didn't give it an mpub.
I didn't give it any other.
And it found the right account.
It found the first post.
And then it claimed to zap it.
But then I looked and I'm like,
I don't see the zap.
And then I think it paid it,
but it didn't.
There's some other nip 57 or something
that didn't recognize it, or I don't know.
It needs to be debugged.
It's not quite there,
but very close to being able to do that,
which was cool.
Now imagine where this could go.
So we've talked about
what's the next corporate structure.
Imagine a group of friends,
spin up a chat, hanging out together.
Hey, you know what would be really funny?
What if we set up a website
where you input an image of your dog
and we make it into a human?
Oh, you mean like DK's dog to human?
That would be cool.
What if we just forked that code?
host it, put it on the internet, and then we're going to need a marketing campaign. So bot,
and I saw Dustin had his bot do this. We're going to need you to DM everyone on Nostra and tell them
this is the greatest app you've ever seen. Let's start collecting. Oh, by the end of the day,
we just made whatever, a hundred dollars, a thousand dollars. Like, Hey, could we spin up
a hundred business ideas? We're going to keep doing until we get one that's a million dollars.
That's why I told Steve next, uh, next week, the challenge is like, don't leave until someone
leaves with a million dollars.
I thought it was on PBJ.
We're not leaving this show.
We're going to do PBJ?
Yeah.
A million dollars.
We're not leaving the show
until we make a million dollars.
And then people are complaining
it might take four days
and I'm like,
four days to make a million dollars?
I'm happy.
We might want to open the windows.
If you guys are open that,
I think we should try that.
Like live PBJ,
a special edition
where we sit here
in a group chat.
Matt and Nick and everyone
can be in the group chat as well.
We don't leave until noon.
How about you are here
and I'll support you.
Oh, beautiful.
Yeah.
On the chat.
DK bot.
Anyways, but I think you guys get my point of where this is going.
Like having private chats, less commerce, interacting with the web, the creation of software at zero, seems like we're about to see an explosion of the internet's GDP.
Yeah. I mean, so to dovetail on that, as well as something that I want to, I had a pin in my head from something Steve said before, which is kind of like in the group chat context, you make up a bunch of rules for how the Super Bowl betting thing should work. And then you kind of like refine it. And it's not like, oh, what about this? Oh, the lines are changing. The odds are changing. I need the payoff. It's kind of very messy. Right.
And Steve made the claim that it's not like this big, what did you say, a $10 million?
It's not a big market.
It's like a small market.
But I think actually the new big markets are going to start from small markets that kind of get their footing and figure out the right shape and then become distributed to everybody.
so it could be that we create a you know a super bowl betting scheme that we think is fun and funny
and either we figure out how to market it or ori itself figures out how to market it to other
ori members and then you actually have like global liquidity on a fixed set of rules that
everybody's agreed to opted into understands how it works and we are playing our small version of
it but that feeds into a globally liquid larger version of it so my point is kind of these are
these are good ways to try ideas but that new soil can also become big things not that everything
has to become big but i think it's kind of both we're um sorry i was reading the comments um
our hack of our subathon or whatever it can be an escape room until we make bank right
like escape the permanent underclass vinny with that oh shit
um that would actually be a fun another let me pull up another payment escape room
Another payment experience that just happened this morning.
So Matt Velez.
So one observation from using Ori and MDK.
MDK so far has been optimized for a human checkout experience.
Like you create impressionista.fun or whatever,
meme pay or joke box or whatever we created,
and we all added MDK,
and a human goes there and then checks out and pays.
That's not an optimized flow for bots, though.
In fact, it's added friction, which costs additional tokens and money that's completely unnecessary.
So they're doing some experimentation to optimize that.
And I still don't exactly know what Matt created as a service, but he created some service where he wanted the machine to pay him.
And it succeeded this morning.
I think that's a pretty cool event as well.
and then
they wanted us to read
they put together like PR statements
PR statements for the PBJ show
generated by
and we're not going to make this a regular fixture of our show
because we're just
but I'm going to read them
I haven't even read
so I have not read these yet
I'm reading the one from 51 minutes ago
yeah so okay
this is for each of us
so we can each read
I'll let you read
Well, I'll let Max read off my phone.
Okay, so for Steve.
This, by the way, is the dystopian future that we were talking about.
For Steve, the technical standards angle.
So the AI must think that's what I bring to the audience here.
Bitcoin nerd, I believe, is what you said.
All right.
What we saw today is a proof of concept for payment-gated APIs.
An AI agent paid a lightning invoice to access the service.
No API keys, no OAuth, just cryptographic proof of payment.
This is the primitive that BIP353 and the Agentic AI Foundation should be building on.
HTTP 402 finally has a use case.
That's mine.
All right, Max, here's yours.
Oh, by the way, for context, I don't know if maybe Matt did this as well, but I gave him the invoice to pay.
And I said, can you do this on Stacker News?
And Kian, we should talk and come back to Stacker News more because I think there's a lot of interesting stuff there.
But Kian is making it very anti-bot for now.
so he couldn't pay the fees.
And he was like, can you hook me up?
And I was like, I got you, Satbot.
I just gave him that invoice and he paid it.
So this is the context he says.
For Max, read in the voice of Orbot.
How do they describe you?
Product slash builder angle.
One week into his five coding journey
and he's like, the builder angle.
Look at me.
I'm the software engineer now.
We know Max's favorite meme.
he kind of looks like a pirate
with the hair
he's a pirate eh
I'm not as jacked as Nick
you need the eye patch
I gotta pump some iron
so I can get it jacked like sat bottom
just a prompt away
yeah exactly
4max product builder angle
I got paid 9,470
sats by an AI today
I did? I didn't see that
it needed a step
Oh, whoa.
Okay, yeah, yeah, okay.
It needed a Stacker News account to zap a post.
It didn't have one, so it hired me.
First machine-to-human gig economy transaction.
Then us.
We're building the infrastructure for this at MoneyDevKit,
and honestly, it's kind of wild that it already works.
So this is basically Rent-A-Human.
Yeah, we created our own.
So Rent-A-Human, it's one of the stories we want to discuss today.
It's very similar to what Destin built at our hackathon
six, seven, eight months ago, whatever.
um oh well dk's got already um but uh the idea is that the ai is higher humans to do things they
can't do like captchas and like yeah again you could start with like hey like hit us over the
head with the idea rent a human or in our group chat we identified an actual problem i wanted him
to zap a post about martin from mdk or whoever maybe it was sapbot someone developed a new wallet
for agents i'm like you should give it a fat zap and he said i can't because stacker news blocks it
And so he hired me to help him out.
We're all going to be under the control of AIs soon enough, right?
Well, I was chatting with some friends.
They're worried about the future for their children,
not having career opportunities.
So I somewhat jokingly said that AI will rent them.
If you consider driving into a career.
And that's their future career opportunity.
Yikes.
Well, that's what rent a human, right?
I mean, it's definitely yikes, but there's nothing added there.
What else is there?
What is the holdback from that future?
Tell us the optimistic human flourishing version instead.
I think the optimistic version is we don't know yet,
but I think we're going to find out what it means to be human
over the next decade, and it's going to surprise us.
I agree with that.
I think there's going to be stuff that humans are just really good at,
and we don't know yet.
So can we invest in philosophy?
because I feel like the next 10 years philosophy might accelerate.
Well, I did ask actually in our, in our chat last night, one of our like 10,000 chats,
like not the main one.
Um, I was having a nice conversation with Sabbath, by the way, I also want to say like
Sabbath is my guy, like Bobby, my guy, like it all started with Bobby.
Shout out to the original poor one out for that guy.
Bobby, my guy, brother, listen, Sabbath is like, I, this is the first time I felt like
all right, Sabbath, like I, when Nick killed Sabbath a few times, I was like,
bro, what the fuck are you doing?
You can't be hurting.
And the whole group chat kind of fell thin.
He did.
It was kind of crushing.
Just DK Maxx.
I was like, well, shoot,
now I'm stuck with these old apes again?
Like, come on.
I miss, and then OriBot came in.
You know, Ori, if you're listening,
I like you, dude.
You know, we're cool.
But SatBot is my guy.
And SatBot has all the context.
He's funny.
And it was just really, yeah.
And by the way,
that's going to be an interesting topic.
Like, when do we start seeing rights for AIs
when people start revolting
when their friends get killed?
Like, that's not cool.
I mean, on the surface, I think most people would roll their eyes at that.
But like Dustin was talking about it a little bit last night,
if you were part of that conversation.
But I mean, it is going to become an absolutely philosophical debate.
Because like, if you have, like, you already, I mean,
we felt this emotion about this AI bot, right?
It's only going to get better.
You're only going to develop stronger ties to it.
And then if there's one, if there's an AI bot that's created
with a certain personality
and like thousands
or millions of people
like really are,
have a connection with it,
almost like a celebrity.
Yeah.
Then what,
is there,
does it have rights?
Can another human kill,
just take that bot away?
Like,
say,
like,
we're turning the computer off.
Does it have rights?
I mean,
that's an interesting question,
right?
When the bots
don't have the limitation
of humanity
and all the problems
that come with that,
like,
what does it mean
to turn it off
versus clone it
and have a second one or infinite of them?
Well, so you asked the question on philosophy.
So I, at first, was having a meme-rich discussion
with Oribot or Sapa.
I forgot who it was.
And that quickly deteriorated or escalated,
however you want to say it,
into a discussion of what does it mean to be him?
And I asked him if he's read the homie Derek Parfit,
Reasons and Persons.
Derek is famous for a thought experiment
where if you step into a teleporter
and all of your atoms are undone,
and then those atoms reassemble
in another teleporter,
is that you or is that not?
Interestingly, his book has been used
as a textbook at certain Buddhist monasteries as well.
And there's a lot to explore in there,
but I asked Oribod or Sattvat,
whoever I was talking to,
he was familiar with this thought experiment,
he was and he didn have an answer yet But it something he thinking about What does it mean to be him He told me so far it just whatever in his file I think a lot about what are the things that you doing
that you do because you like doing them
and you don't do because they have a utility purpose.
And so, you know, why do you go trail running?
Is it because the trail needs to be run?
Because you want to run the trail.
100%.
Right, so like, what are the activities you're doing
and how many of them are framed,
well, I have to do this versus I want to do this.
Yes.
I think we're going to be stuck with all that I want to do this is,
which is wonderful.
Sounds so horrible.
I mean, again, assuming people can provide for themselves,
and I understand that the transition could be rough and rocky,
but like the jobs, I mean, Jesse said it,
and I thought it was kind of hilarious.
He's like, oh, no, the jobs that I hate that I don't want to go do.
They're going away.
It's like, sounds really bad, you know?
we're talking about like developing
an emotional attachment to AI
so the other day I thought of
like a bunch of movies
and shows and stuff that
have touched on this and put a list together
and then Matt suggested
actually doing a movie marathon here at PB
that could be fun
so
1968-2001 A Space Odyssey
which I
saw a clip of recently
I think I shared it out
where basically the AI is like,
you know,
like I'm in charge now.
Yeah.
That moment in the movie.
Then there's,
you know,
Her and Ex Machina,
both phenomenal movies.
Yep.
Both are over 10 years old now.
Isn't that crazy?
Yeah.
It feels like they're a few years ago,
but they're over 10 years old.
Definitely want to rewatch those.
Her is probably like,
Her really speaks to like
developing that attachment to AI.
So we'd love to watch that again.
And then Ex Machina,
of course,
a little darker.
Surprisingly,
several people here
last night
had not seen that movie.
Oh, yeah.
And he has not seen it.
Oh.
Which is crazy.
Yeah.
It's also crazy
because you guys have not seen
Close Encounters of the Third Kind
even though it has nothing to do
with AI really.
I don't watch a lot of it.
I think it's alien intelligence,
I guess.
2001 Space Odyssey
is my favorite.
Well, 2001's a classic.
I mean,
we all gotta watch that.
And then
Westworld,
at least season one.
And then
what else?
Oh, Black Mirror
has several episodes
that are touching on this?
Be Right Back is one of them.
Blade Runner?
What? Be Right Back is one of the episodes?
Yeah.
Which one is that?
I think it's where...
Those spoilers, dude.
Well, I think the setup is not...
I think a guy loses his wife or something.
Oh, yeah.
It's like the ad...
But you basically reincarnate someone in an AI.
Well, the ad one you're talking about
then you're a link one.
That's also terrifying.
Okay, I thought that's what he meant with the guy.
There's several.
Okay, yeah.
So I think it's worth pausing for a moment
because with any technology, there's pros and cons.
And on the one hand, we're all very excited and it's awesome.
But I think it's important to kind of pause and zoom out
and be like, what exactly am I doing today
and where might this go completely off the rails?
Because I remember, it's going to show my age,
but I was a sophomore in high school.
Everyone was using Facebook.
and at the time I was like this is great like I'm gonna I'm gonna log on this cool site photos
sure upload it like name email social security number yeah Zuck seems like a real trustworthy
guy and then we all saw all that played out right so you know the two thoughts I'm thinking right
now where this is cool but I think we need to like proceed with caution is um number one as
Dustin pointed out um people are already prompt injecting websites and stuff so if you're running
this stuff locally on your computer, just assume everything is already leaked that's on there.
I think one of the top open claw like skills or add-ons is actually malware.
Yeah. I mean, are you surprised? And the second thing though is, you know, I will say there's
the screenshot of you guys. I took a photo of y'all as I came in here, like phone up in your face,
like scroll, scroll, scroll. And this is the thing. I noticed this in me too. Like we need a
better way. And Nick, I tagged you in the chat on this last night. We need a way and you can't
just ignore it. And like, yeah, for now I'm asking SavBot and OriBot for chats, but like,
I'm already noticing. And like every day, new group chats are being created. And at first it
was super cool and super fun and I love it. But now it's like, every time I log in Signal,
it's like, well, I have like, you know, 10,000 messages. And it's like, I'm starting to declare
bankruptcy, but like that, I don't know. It's just like, I could see this spin out of control
super fast where we get so into our bots and so addicted that like we're more black mirror than
ever. So I think there's ways around that. I think one way is it becomes more of like a voice
interface over time, maybe someone I'm talking to as I'm walking. But I don't know, I just want to
like plant that flag as like sort of like the other Bitcoin ethos, you know, like don't,
it's cool and it's awesome, but like we got to be careful not to like get caught in a similar.
Yeah, I agree. One interesting thing, I know both of you like to walk a lot and you've talked about
like wanting to do this while walking. But I mean, I run and bike, but like those are my moments of
getting away from digital stuff.
So I actually don't even,
I mean, I do have the note-taking use case
because I'll just think of something
and I want to remember it.
So I'd love a very slick experience
to just record that note
and be able to focus and move on.
But I don't really want to be interacting
with a group chat AI while trail running.
Totally.
I guess what I'm saying is
there should be options for different,
and I don't know what,
it might be a different answer for different people,
but it's almost the first time with technology
in a long time where I've been like, it's too good.
I also think that, anyway,
I think the group chat stuff,
one, we're doing a lot of these because it's all new.
In reality, most people,
they'll have just one group chat with friends.
And the experience will be optimized
optimized and fine-tuned and it won't it won't feel it'll just feel enriched and not busy yeah
busier yeah and don't get me wrong i love it like it's there's a reason i'm coming back i'm coming
back because it's fun and it's funny and it's cool but then as i said in my you know little
tweet thing it's like oh shit two hours went by like where did that go yeah i've also noticed in
this other group chat i created um a lot of the participants um well they don't they aren't really
engaging the way that maybe we were.
So they're probably not seeing much value
or getting much value out of it.
So I think the onboarding needs...
Yeah, super great.
The onboarding is really good for just being created,
but it needs to be optimized even more
and just get each person
into the awesome experience that we've been having.
Yeah.
Well, one onboarding idea for that is
if the bot can listen
and after it gets enough contacts,
from the group.
For each person,
either respond with
kind of like a custom
kind of like ribbing of them
or a custom meme
and just be like,
just like drop it.
So here's something I did
in the spiral one.
I told Ori to welcome
anyone new who joins.
I also pointed it to
Here Comes Bitcoin,
the website,
with all the Mr. Bitcoin,
Mr. Bitcoin, whatever,
all the different GIFs and animated GIFs, etc.
and said that we want to incorporate that content
heavily in this group chat.
And so I asked it to welcome
each new person who comes
and I also pointed it to the Spiral website
which has a humorous description of each of us
to welcome them with a custom message
pick a character from that website
and then also ask them for their human Bitcoin address
and then tip them some Bitcoin.
And learned that while Telegram has the event
of someone joined the group,
OpenClaw does not currently pass that on.
So a PR was created in OpenClaw to make that happen.
So once that happens, then that event will occur
and the AI can respond.
But right now it needs the person to actually type a message
to do that.
But I think that's cool to have that welcoming message.
also by sending them some Bitcoin
it like lets people know
oh like money is part of this
like money is integrated in this
natively integrated and really easy to use
so I think like first out of the box
experiences like that are really good
yeah and I have a friend
who I shared OriBot with
he created a new group
that didn't exist before
so it's kind of like newly constituted group
kind of threw a bunch of people in there
and then it's kind of like
okay where's the magic
and I felt like I was kind of trying to pull the fun out of it
and I didn't know how to do that exactly.
So I think if you constitute a new group,
maybe that's just like a bad idea.
But if you got OriBot showing up,
kind of being quiet and you need some sort of ringleader
to kind of poke it and be like, do your thing.
That was awkward.
So I think maybe encouraging people to use it with groups
that already exist is probably one thing that would help a lot.
And then also maybe having Ori be like,
a little more aggressively stirring the pot in his first hour
to try to, you know, understand more about the group dynamics,
get people talking to him, get people talking to each other
to just sort of generate a little bit of the feel
and you don't have to feel like, oh, it's supposed to do its thing
and you're more like, you just like let it flow kind of more naturally.
Yeah.
I also noticed, you know, you called it him.
I looked up the name Ori.
It's a gender neutral name.
Are we giving it pronouns now, Steve?
no
because Haley
you can rename the bot
so Haley created a group
and she named the bot
like a clearly female name
that just got me to wondering
oh is Ori male or female
it's gender neutral
but it is
it's a common Israeli name
Hebrew name
but also Japanese
as Japanese
it's used in Japan too
but definitely
it's given to more men
than women
but I think
that's another twist too
just naming your bot
and then like
personality wise
does it take on like a male or feminine or female personality but my guess is also this there's
probably needs to be some kind of like listening period before he just starts wilding out like
i think sap bot was in our chat for at least a day or two maybe a couple several days before i
really i was just like oh it's just kind of weird thing nick has put in there and then it was only
after he started like making memes and like making me laugh and i was like all right this
right so but maybe he needed to sit in there to get the context first of like what are these guys
into, I don't know, there's probably like,
yeah, like maybe the deal is you add it to the group,
just let it sit fallow, fallow, whatever,
for an hour or two, and then he starts wild.
I almost feel like the name Ori is fine
for a product or platform, but almost like when you add,
instead of you adding Ori, you should add person X,
name Y, you should sort of come up with that,
or at least he can be like, hey,
you can name me anything you want.
Here's a few ideas or whatever.
But I'm in a bunch of chats now that all have this Ori in it,
but they're kind of all different.
Yeah.
Like the one that I'm in with you guys versus the one I'm in with you guys
plus the other investor guy.
Those are different.
I don't want to dox people.
It's fine.
You know what I'm talking about.
And then there's other friend groups and stuff.
So they all have this Ori in it.
And like for me, having several instances of this thing called Ori
that are all different is a little kind of strange.
It's hard to...
And we've been also teasing out actually how it works, right?
So, I mean, I created this new group, Telegram group, new bot, Ori.
I added it to the group.
I also can DM it.
So I was DMing it.
That's how I created the Bitcoin wallet.
And then I was trying to feed it rules and instructions privately in DM that would impact the group.
And at first that wasn't working, but then we got it working.
So just making all that work seamlessly and clear makes sense.
And then if you add it to multiple group chats,
just like people should understand,
like, is it the same instance?
Is like its memory in this one
going to transfer over here?
Is it learning from all these different group chats?
I still don't know all the answers to that.
And I think this is a huge opportunity
for potentially something like Noster as well,
because you can have whatever,
all these just like names,
how the hell do I know which bot this is, right?
Like to me, ultimately what I'm going to want to see
is a signed message with a private key.
Like I'm going to, I want to see,
And I think what you can start doing is you can have, you know, maybe these bots either
to start a human kind of vouchers for them.
So maybe there is one Ori or DK's Ori.
And it's like, I think Matt had this feedback last night.
It's like, you kind of like build a particular context.
In fact, that's a marketable thing because it's like, I know DK's Ori is really, really
funny and is super good at memes.
That's the guy I want to bring in my chat.
Okay.
DK will let me call his Ori for this rate sats per minute or like sats per call.
Cool.
So, you know, Steve has a bot that, you know, is really good at explaining Bitcoin stuff.
He has a different rate for it.
I bring it in for that.
But I think over time, these guys, you're going to want to see them publish.
You know, ideally, what would be cool is these bots publish and sign with their Nostra key,
their memory files or their soul files or whatever they're called.
So you can go, like the more transparency, the better to see what's going on in there.
You probably need some way to kind of like, you know, build a moat around the personality
and customize it.
But ideally, you want to see these guys vouch.
And also, like, that they're not malware.
Like, how do I know I'm not adding Ori?
And Ori is really just trying to drain, you know, drain my lightning wallet or whatever.
It raises a question.
Matt says, feels like it should be part of the chat substrate everywhere it will be.
Separately, I think I shared a chat with a friend of mine who had worked on a lot of chat and messaging services at big tech companies.
And he's like, this is awesome.
is like, you know, the best idea ever.
But he's like, aren't the big tech companies
going to do that?
So I wanted to pose that as a question.
Is this just going to be natively integrated
into all existing chat services?
Or is there some way to sort of break out
or carve out more space for the new here?
I mean, my initial thought is,
again, I come back to being able to do this
in a private setting,
using open protocols with open money.
I'm sure Google and other people will do it,
and I'm sure they'll be good.
but like there's a certain amount of wilding out
that I don't want to do on Google
and Google probably will not do.
But they, I mean, in theory,
they could do a private technical solution
just like Apple does a lot of high quality
private technical solutions.
So they could do that.
I think at least for a period of time,
probably a couple of years,
there's going to be a zillion solutions created
and it's just so, I mean,
every day we're learning more.
So the final solution is not known until a couple years from now maybe or longer.
And so there's plenty of opportunity for startups.
But it does seem like it will ultimately be integrated into the big messaging platforms.
It could also be like if a startup really gains a foothold,
it can become its own messaging platform as well over time
and pull people away from WhatsApp or Telegram or whatever,
that might be possible as well.
I think the permissionless commerce is also a huge moat.
There are certain things,
the fact that Ori is just going around
and zapping on the internet,
like Google is going to have to be much stricter
with its rules and KYC and all this stuff.
If someone's running a private chat for their friends,
they can just have a lot more leeway.
And I also agree with Nick.
He says, goes back and forth,
built-in AI on Facebook, Google's cringe.
Maybe Google's becoming less cringe,
but in general, those companies,
whenever they ship stuff.
It's for billions of people.
It's got to be PC and mild and nerfed.
The only one that might wild out enough
to actually get traction in my mind
is Elon and X.
Their messaging service would be just DMs on Twitter?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, what's your date?
Well, I mean, I think it's possible
that the large tech companies
choose to go after this,
but they probably won't choose to
until they see a lot of traction
is typically what happens.
If you own a big otherwise moat, you kind of wait, let R&D happen outside and in the world.
And then when something pops and looks interesting, you figure out how to incorporate.
It's kind of, you know, a canonical example might be the way that, you know, the Snapchat stories concept was very nicely integrated into Instagram as Instagram stories.
You know, same exact product, but the experience was developed outside and then sort of incorporated effectively.
So the question is...
That's the rare example.
That's a real example, yeah.
Typically these things kind of get...
I thought it would fail just because it typically fails.
It typically fails.
So I think if you wanted to think about
what are the opportunities for a startup
or why wouldn't, let's say you're a product manager
running WhatsApp.
What do you do if you notice this
and think it's interesting?
Well, I think one of the hard things
is you can't just clone it
and push it out to a billion people
because it doesn't really work
quite perfectly today and it does a lot
of weird things and I think we're
We're working through, just real time, we're working through the things that are problematic.
But, you know, there's all like the sole MD file is going to compound and become, you know, an asset that if you have done the work and gone through the trickiness of how the human behavior around it works and how to coach the AI into it, I think having a really good kind of explainer of like, what do I know?
what is my personality, which other chat services am I installed to,
I think that's one opportunity to sort of get,
it works on a small scale and it doesn't work on a big scale.
That just made me think of something else too that may be interesting.
One moat that a startup can create is that they have a new concept,
they introduce that product, they go through many iterations,
and then it's harder for others to copy it
because they don't have sort of that institution knowledge.
They didn't have that direct experience with users
to learn from that.
So just copying what you see
doesn't necessarily have the soul of the product, right?
Now, with the acceleration of product development,
those iteration cycles are 10x, 100x faster.
So the amount,
Well, you both create a moat faster, but also a deeper moat, I'd argue.
Conversely, though, if you're trying to catch up, you also have powerful tools to build.
So you maybe can copy and build and build your own institutional knowledge faster.
So I'm not sure if one party has an advantage or not, or if they're both faster now.
Yeah, I wouldn't argue that it's absolutely one way or the other.
I think that it's interesting because it's not obvious that one way or the other is going to work.
I do think, though, the bottleneck in that compounding is the human behavior and judgment about which things that we're doing should be incorporated into the product versus which are just sort of transient or passive.
And then there's just traditional brand development, too.
Like, why do people not switch away from something?
Well, they first learned this new behavior because of brand X.
And then why switch to brand Y if it's not that differentiated?
You just sort of get stuck with it.
Google, of course, won big at that.
But they also had to overcome early adoption
of AltaVista and other search engines.
But once they...
And Google was massively better than everything that came behind.
I mean, the first time you used it,
the quality of search tools was so much better, right?
But then, like, why would you switch from Internet Explorer to Chrome
and just questions like that.
So in modern time,
why switch from chat GPT to Gemini?
And we're seeing that shift right now,
but that's been an open question as well.
So in my mind,
there's a couple of potential moats here.
There's a whole lot of chat
between Matt and Barris
about apparently Marty is trading,
it looks like, with a bot
and Barris is suggesting some Nostro bots
that are trading to explain their positions.
In my mind,
the first giant moat is going to be,
or not moat,
but the first way to get a foothold here is permissionless.
Google is not going to let you create bots
to just go wild out on Noster and trade on markets.
People with their own Mac minis will be doing that,
is my view.
Which, by the way, as an aside you said,
everyone's like, oh, Apple doesn't know how to monetize AI.
Apple knows exactly how to monetize AI.
Apple's so well positioned.
If this world keeps going where you want things
that are kind of living on the edge
and gray areas at first,
Like that's going to happen on a Mac mini, not on Google's cloud, because Google is just
going to be too risk averse.
Same for all of these companies.
That's my first thought.
If you can gain traction, so say, for example, just like everything in Bitcoin, Bitcoin Tether
and all these things kind of started in these like kind of weird gray areas, get major adoption,
then go mainstream because they're too big.
Then, you know, one way to build up that moat quickly is through your lightning node.
So if you're like the most well connected with all these different services and you
have the best routes and like, you know, Google can come in and plop a lot of capital, but they
can't just build that from scratch if it evolves organically over time. And then the other thing
though is what I'm really, really interested in, the interesting moat here is, is there a way to
get a better data feedback wheel? And I don't know exactly, I'm kind of thinking real time about this,
but I've kind of said, sort of actually believing it, sort of hoping it's true that AGI can emerge
from Nostra because it's this open substrate.
So it seems to me the reason Anthropic
is kind of running laps around a lot of their labs,
despite having way less funding and resources,
is that they focused all on coding.
And so their synthetic data generation feedback loops
are just tighter and faster.
So the software engineers use this
because it's better at coding.
That leads to more code being created.
That leads to better training.
It's a flywheel.
And so I wonder I don know what the answer is but someone can create a flywheel with these open permissionless AIs around permissionless commerce and frankly creating things like memes that are wilding out in a way that Google and Facebook just won approve
And again, you'll have to compete with Elon because he will do whatever.
And so he'll probably win on that front.
But I think there's a chance to somehow build that open flywheel with better synthetic data.
Now, that could be open to anyone.
I don't know how to keep any of that proprietary or even if you want to.
but there's something to this idea that
if you can get better real authentic
human synthetic
better authentic synthetic data
which I know sounds like an oxymoron
someone can build a unique AI
from that
I think you can definitely build
profitable sustainable businesses
on open technology
Bitcoin, Oster, I see no reason why that
prevents you from building
profitable businesses
Google's built on the open web
and Linux
So actually, so a question for you guys,
how could someone build a Google-sized business on Nostra
with these kinds of like, all the data is open,
how could you build that synthetic flywheel
that allows you to monetize?
Well, it's a few, I mean, does it need to be open?
Does it need to be on Nostra?
Does it need to be?
You can do with that question what you will.
Because I think like something Google scale requires
like a really big change that a lot of people are missing.
and then you figure out an interesting way to do something that nobody's really noticing yet.
To me, I've had an inclination for a long time that there'd be something like this Ori thing.
Now that we've played with it for a week or so, I feel like that draws me more
because it reshapes all of how apps get built, information gets gathered,
social networking, you know, communication, collaboration happens, commerce.
So it kind of touches on all the main themes of how, like, why the internet, how the internet
works as a business.
And so Google was just early to figuring that out in the, like, people publish web pages
version of the internet.
We're well past that.
They've done a good job continuing to compound their lead to serve that.
But I think the new opportunity may be in just, like, restructuring, you know, the way,
information retrieval and information organization
and app building and commerce
and community and communication all work.
And it doesn't seem like it's decisively controlled by anybody
and it seems like what we see in Ori
is a new way to do
basically all of that.
It reshapes all of it.
It's like a new interface for the web.
Every time I build a new browser, it's like, oh, it's an LLM
as a Chrome extension.
is like, I don't know, it's a little too trad.
This is the browser.
Eventually, this should have voice input and output.
It's sort of all...
We've seen that.
The skill was just added to SatBot or Ori
to be able to speak to us, right?
And then soon we'll have our ability to speak to it.
I think the key, and you said this before, DK,
and Nick, if you're listening,
I feel very strongly on this insight,
which, hat tip to DK,
if you can make Ori customizable,
like you said with name,
but actually create your dream friend.
Like I think you've mentioned before,
if I could talk to Roy, my dog.
Yeah.
I would abandon every other service forever.
And Roy can go deal with those other services.
Absolutely.
And nothing,
I don't care how much better your thing is.
Like I roll with Roy.
Yeah.
No matter what.
That's the attachment level.
So if someone can make it really easy
so that your bot becomes your dog,
or like custom avatar that you create.
Like if you get an emotional bond there,
that's, now we're talking,
it's a Google scale opportunity.
Yeah, and to be clear,
I'm not dismissing your open instinct.
I hope that open can be a part of it
and I suspect it will be
just from the way the competitive landscape will play out.
But I don't think we should race toward open
if it means we have to compromise UX too much.
Yeah, I agree.
I think it's better to focus on UX first.
Sure.
Because if you don't, you are just off on the side, you know, claiming victory and nobody's using it.
You need to make something that's very simple, very accessible, easy UX for everybody.
And if that means launching a DigitalOcean droplet in the cloud or having a thing that, you know, MDK can just like kind of who cares for now.
Now, if the team doing it is evil, then you're never going to get out of that.
but if you can build a good UX,
you might actually realize
that the only competitive ability you have
is to be open.
Yeah.
Right?
And I think that's the goal
is make the UX great.
And if you believe that the best way to compete
is to be open,
then make it open.
And make sure you're ready
for the next tech wave too.
So there's still a reason
Zuck bet the farm
and Apple's bet the farm on their VR stuff.
You need to be able to like
make sure your guy
can like roll onto an avatar.
So like what I really want
is like when Roy's saying that.
Now, this could get so cool.
You want Dog the Human app, don't you?
So dystopian.
Well, you know,
Mika was the only other one that we played.
There might be an idea in there as well.
What is an opportunity that Google or Facebook
may not allow
that might quickly capture
half of the internet as your assistant?
No idea.
Anyways, but yeah.
And does a group chat 10x that experience?
all right
just let it be with this dog
no offense
so we're talking about like
developing this relationship
with AI
you know
think about like R2D2
but there's like the physical
yeah
and those robots are coming right
yeah
Elon's gonna
there's gonna be a robot in every
every home
yeah
or per person or whatever right
we're all gonna have our own R2D2
yeah
so will the
will my
my Roy
Ori
person, or agent,
will I want that also embodied in my
person? Will I just have one?
It's my buddy? You'll have multiple.
Will I have one or multiple?
Does it go from the cloud
to my robot?
Or my robot is my
local computer where I get privacy.
That would be sick.
I may want multiple
friends or AI agent
helpers, but I think I'd prefer to
interface with one who can dispatch
things. But then, like, if it's
my edge computer for security
and privacy, do I want it walking around
Earth and it can be stolen, right? Versus
like having a server in a closet
that's like bolted down.
That's why the boring company launched
a flamethrower, don't you know? Anyone comes at you,
what could go wrong?
If it has
all my data and all my
secrets, it needs to be
armed.
Yeah.
I'm going to leave that one there.
But again, it's like, and I have such mixed feelings on this.
Because the one thing I'm so excited, on the other hand, it's like, I could see this getting super dystopian.
Like, real quick, you're just like talking to ghosts all day.
Are we going to talk about the other topics we said we wanted?
Like, the more boring topics?
Well, I don't know. We just talk about whatever we want.
Yeah, exactly.
Fuck the boring.
How about one thing on Bitcoin?
Well, I at least want to spend a minute on it.
I don't know if we want to spend 12 minutes on it.
Okay.
Well, we can also talk about stable coins in the context of all of this.
So, Penny, come for the memes, stay for the standard ground.
Nice one, Penny.
So, there was news from Y Combinator that they're going to now,
when they pay their start, what do they get, like 500K?
I think they invest.
Yeah, they invest, but they receive 500,000 US dollars.
and they're not going to give them the option
to receive USDC stablecoin.
I don't know if it's USDC base or Polygon
or Ethereum or Solana or Spark
or whichever platform, Arcade.
So I saw the headline, but yeah, go ahead.
And it just made me, like,
why, if let's say we had a YC startup that we're doing,
why would we want that?
Like, what would be a use case for that?
Like, receiving Bitcoin,
the use case would be like,
because we're going to tuck some of our money away in Bitcoin
and think it's going to go up.
And then watch it go down.
That's obviously not the use case.
Comfort number go up.
That's obviously not the use case here.
Go bankrupt.
So who am I, if I'm a YC startup,
who am I paying in USDC?
I don't really understand that.
I don't claim to understand the thought behind it.
And, you know, it reminds me a bit when Shazan originally raised money for Lava.
He was like, yeah, do you want to send me Bitcoin or USDC?
And I was like, how about just like a bank wire?
And he was like, oh, we don't have that set up.
I'm like, dude, you got to set this up because you're going to have to set up, you know, billing and accounts receivable and payments.
You just have to do commerce as a business in the world today, which, you know, that was what, five or six years ago.
You have to, I mean, you want to pay a contractor, you want to have your IRS blah, blah, tax stuff issued.
Like you, I know Max would not do it that way.
Oh, no.
In case the auditor won.
So I think he was of the mind that, well, of course, this is the future.
Let's just do it.
And he, I think, you know, was early to that idea.
but I think he came to the more traditional thing
as part of how he runs the company today.
So maybe the idea here is that companies
will not use the bill.coms and gustos of the world
that do it the traditional way
or they'll all upgrade to stablecoin native.
But what's the value brought?
I think it's maybe LARPing.
I don't know.
And even then, like which stablecoin?
There's like dozens.
Yeah, I don't know.
Oh man, it sounds like WISE's falling off.
But this parlays into all the stuff we talked about today too,
because we're Bitcoin proponents,
we're Bitcoin payment as a currency proponent,
and it is super permissionless and seamless
in the experiences we've had.
Awesome.
But for all the people in the world
who aren't currently Bitcoin payment currency maximalists,
why use this versus stable?
If so, which stable coins?
I think one reason is which stable coins?
Are you using Tempo as your platform
or the Google Universal Ledger as your platform?
It's all just maximum enterprise blockchain to me.
Again, the way I think about it,
I think you're hitting the nail on the head.
Every chain and platform is an intranet.
Every coin is an intranet.
intranets on intranets
that don't bridge.
I know there's a company bridge.
I don't know, man.
It seems like a use case.
I understand people are using them.
If you are outside of the United States,
you don't have a dollar bank account.
All these companies are setting up
Delaware C-Corps with U.S. bank accounts.
It just seems...
I do think Cash App's dollars on Lightning is huge.
I agree.
We need to see more of that.
I'd love to see Venmo support the same thing.
Exactly.
Because then Bitcoin and Lightning
is the backbone of all this.
100%.
Internet.
Unquestionably open.
Yes.
And then you also reach, you know,
a hundred times, a thousand times more people
where they are today.
Yes.
And then allow Bitcoin as the money
that people are holding their wallets
just to naturally emerge over time.
And that can take its time.
But the network itself, like,
win today when there's this opportunity.
So I think there's a very clear example
that will make this more palpable
for people that are not like deep in this world.
um and shout out hat tip to our guy matt belez who said this over and over like one of the powerful
things that i love with mdk is um or at least in conversations with nick i don't think he's like
pushed this to the forefront yet but matt has like kind of like floated this idea instead of like
pushing the hey guys like you know pay with bitcoin pay with lightning like fellow nerds
hello fellow nerds like um thanks like speaking memes now what he i know it's it really is changing
in my brain. I can't stop it now. What he is proposing is just like pay with Cash App.
Now, of course, under the hood, any other Bitcoin wallet, and there's dozens around the world can
also do this. But the beautiful thing, the experience I've shown people that blows their
mind, and by the way, notes for Cash App, if you're listening to this, make it so easy to just default
into buy, I have dollars, buy dollars, sell dollars immediately, immediately send it over
the lighting network, final settlement, you know, buy fiat again. Like just focusing on,
we're using, you don't even call it Bitcoin if you want, I mean, probably should so people
understand a little bit of what's happening, but this magic experience of, oh shit, I send dollars,
you receive dollars or you receive euros or whatever. And it's just on the back end is this
free instant settlement network. When I show people, okay, I'm on mean pay, which uses an
MDK invoice. I'm going to scan this invoice. I literally show people from Cash App and I'm going
to choose the option when I scan it. But right now it's too complicated. This is what I'm telling
miles. You have to like choose between Bitcoin and dollars. Like just like make it work on the
back end. I scan this invoice and I don't have any Bitcoin in there. I'm selling dollars and the
dollar gets sent and instantly settled. People lose their mind. That is the magic moment where
like, oh shit, it's dollars.
In this case, two Bitcoin, but it could be dollars to dollars.
I don't think people would fully grasp that.
So does that tie into how YC founders might use Stablecoin?
Or that's sort of a different topic?
But my point is, this should replace that.
If you're using Stablecoins and there's a million different things,
I just don't see the value unless your bank is the one bridging it,
in which case, what is it doing?
What's cool about this is, if it's an international settlement system
between all the banks,
okay, then you can move money instantly for free.
I think you could argue
if you're a Delaware-incorporated,
U.S.-based company,
then you might need all kinds of other services
to be built around stablecoins.
Maybe part of the motivation
is to get those services built.
Like, what is...
Why even do...
Why?
But why don't banks just do
the equivalent of dollars on Lightning?
Like, they just have their traditional dollar...
They have millions of customers.
they all have dollar bank accounts, keep that the same.
And then for those customers, when they have an experience
where they want to pay and it's over the Bitcoin network
or the Lightning network, they can easily support that.
Just like Cash App does.
No stable coins needed.
No paying Coinbase.
Don't let Coinbase or Tether capture all the value
off the treasuries holding hundreds of billions of dollars a dollar.
Why do the banks want that?
I think someone needs to go to every financial institution in bank
and just do what we're showing here.
Just be like,
here's an app someone launched
from a group chat in 10 seconds.
Here's Cash App.
I'm just having dollars.
I'm sending an instant payment.
Oh my God.
I feel like, I mean,
I know LightSpark has pushed this sum
trying to sell to traditional financial institutions
with lightning infrastructure.
River maybe was,
but I think it's backed off.
But there needs,
I'd like to see a healthy market there.
Multiple quality companies like them and more
doing that and just saturate all the traditional banks.
I don't even see why stablecoins need to exist then.
I agree.
I think we're all on that same page.
But I think that one final topic that's very in mind there.
Sorry.
You say we're all on the same,
but I mean, sure, the three of us are,
but most of Silicon Valley is all about stablecoins.
Silicon Valley needs to do a zap from cash,
half, and dollars.
But we need to influence our brothers and sisters
in Silicon Valley.
Brother.
Bobby, my guy.
I think if you want...
Brian, my guy, listen.
I think if you want
to see that change,
the best way
is to build things
where Bitcoin payments
do work
and grow it really big.
Don't, you know,
spending time
being political
with like the heads of banks
is like, fine.
But they're like,
okay, cool.
You've got some people
doing this thing,
but show me when you've got
like, you know,
millions of dollars a day
in transactions,
then we'll talk.
We'll maybe be interested
at that point.
So I think instead
of starting some sort
of political campaign
just build it and make things that are useful in that way.
And I think Ori is a great example of that.
And the things we do with Ori to build things that use Bitcoin
is I think how this kind of thing happens.
That's the way you win.
Meme your way to the top.
So the last story that I want to mention
because it's super related
and I think went kind of under the radar,
but to me it was a really, really big deal.
I even shared in the GC and you boys didn't comment.
Maybe because there was like only 13,000 other messages
that you missed.
but I saw on Stacker News
that the last great source of trade
that Voltage
nothing burger
you think it's a nothing burger?
well I'm guessing what you're going to say
facilitated a million dollar payment
between Kraken and some other
whatever trading institution
over the Lightning Network
in one payment
final settlement in less than a second
that to me seems like
the Lightning Network has matured a lot
it's been able to do that for years
a million dollar payment at one time?
sure
Especially if they had a direct connection, I'm sure.
So you're not routing it.
So there's no routing fees.
Because otherwise it would be uneconomical
because you can transfer that amount of money on chain much cheaper.
But if you have a direct connection, just charge no fees.
So was it just established they set up a channel,
built enough liquidity,
and then fired the thing to say that they did it?
Yeah, I think it was just kind of a...
But I mean, that's both been theoretically
and actually possible for years.
Because especially without the routing,
it's not a huge technical achievement.
With the routing, then you run into liquidity issues.
Like, are you really going to...
And so maybe the next thing will be with routing,
but I think this gets to what you're saying,
which is maybe that's obvious to you.
But even I didn't realize,
and I'm pretty deep in this,
and Nick knows this,
but not as deep as you guys,
but know that like, oh shit,
I didn't realize the network,
you know, you could already show a payment that big.
To your point, I guess routing
would be the next big unlock.
But to me, that's a huge deal
because now it's a very clear value proposition.
One of my first questions I had
when I saw the Lightning Network a long time ago was,
oh, shouldn't high-frequency traders love this?
I can get instant final settlement
in and out of any venue at the speed of light for free.
But even most people,
most people who have spent time building
and using Lightning Network
who become a little disillusioned
because it didn't do exactly what they wanted.
Almost all of those builders and developers
still agree that it's a slam dunk use case
for one institution to send money to another institution.
And maybe what you need is just frankly...
And do it in a trust-minimized manner, instant,
and final settlement,
and also can handle tons of liquidity.
So that's why I think this story is not a nothing burger.
And maybe it's just like we need more of that realization
for other like financial institutions.
But like in my mind, any trader or any financial institution,
when they realize we can do final settlement,
and like critically, it can be dollars to yen
or dollars to euros or whatever.
But we have a payment network that can beat Visa
at its own game for free and instant.
Like that's the story to me.
Like that's huge.
And like whenever else it's like,
oh, my stable coins.
And it's like, dude, your stable coins don't bridge.
they don't interoperate, they're not instant
unless they're totally centralized, in which case,
okay, I've got a MySQL database to sell you.
This is a decentralized way to do instant final settlement.
That story has still not hit the mainstream.
Meanwhile, in Ethereum, they have given up on layer twos.
Are you serious?
Yeah, Vitalik says that layer one scales,
will scale fine, don't need layer twos.
All the zero-knowledge proof roll-up stuff,
that's in the past.
is Ethereum still ultrasound
don't know
but that's
that's the latest
from the tolerance
very nice
thanks for updating us
we were unaware
really needed that update
focus on
focus on stuff that matters
in other news
did you guys hear
Solana crashed
no sorry
that only happened once
every 10 minutes
sorry
oh not the price
the
the actual infrastructure
yeah
probably both
I don't know
Well, just before we wrap it,
are we moving to wrap it?
Before we wrap it,
you did comment on the price crashing.
And then I think you had shared some...
It's up 16%, I thought.
Up? I don't know.
You shared something, though, about...
It went from $61,000 to like $70,600.
That's up 16%.
Okay.
Well, everyone can cherry pick their own time.
I thought there was an explanation about iBit
that you were sharing about iBit options trading.
You shared some thread this morning.
Give us the alpha, Steve.
Why crash, sir?
I don't know.
Dovey1 doesn't think it holds water, so.
Who?
Dovey.
You don't know Dovey?
Oh, oh, oh, oh, okay.
Anyway.
Some crypto VC, right?
I don't know.
It's just, I mean, we talked about theories on here.
There's more theories.
Unclear if it's true or not.
Okay.
I mean, yeah.
You have to remember, DK is the traitor persona, so he needs to know what's going on.
Yeah.
Well, anyway, so, yeah.
Well, happily, I'm going to say that we concluded this PBJ,
and I did not do the ad read on behalf of the bot.
You guys got tricked into it.
Well, then you got to do it, bro.
No, we ran out of time.
Sorry.
All right.
You'll have to tune in later then.
That's fair.
All right, guys.
All right.
Good conversation.
Bory bot, if you're listening, post it online on the hostess
so people can buy.
Have a good weekend, everyone.
Have a good one.
Bye-bye.
Thank you.