1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,500 boys to pay it for being late. All right. Welcome to another episode of the Presidio Bitcoin Jam. 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:09,200 This is PBJ here. Happy Friday, guys. Hey, guys. I think we changed the name to the 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:15,360 SatBot Jam. Is that right? OriBot, SatBot Jam. Presidio OriBot Jam. Presidio AIBot. 4 00:00:16,220 --> 00:00:18,840 Well, it's nice. You can always like plug in something else for the middle word. 5 00:00:20,420 --> 00:00:23,900 Yeah. We're going to be talking about Ori today. We're going to be talking a lot about Ori, 6 00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:27,880 but we're talking about Ori all week. Well, before we do, I got a question for y'all live. 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,040 Max is finally back in the real group chat again. 8 00:00:30,260 --> 00:00:30,680 Oh, my God. 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,820 Well, and fucking Steve's trying to get me to go into another group. 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:35,780 Dude, I am drowning in group chats. 11 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:36,840 We're having fun. 12 00:00:36,860 --> 00:00:38,880 Well, you could get summarization from a bot. 13 00:00:38,980 --> 00:00:39,280 I know. 14 00:00:39,420 --> 00:00:40,540 Well, I am doing that. 15 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,400 But before we jump off, I got a good jumping off point. 16 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,720 We have Mr. Matthew Cote, who's always there. 17 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:47,260 Yeah. 18 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:48,060 Shout out to Matt. 19 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,660 And he says, did they say a thousand sats for every minute? 20 00:00:51,740 --> 00:00:52,100 They're late. 21 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:52,700 I forget. 22 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:54,200 And then Vinny's asking the same. 23 00:00:54,200 --> 00:01:00,900 Now, Nick, is there a way we could have Ori join this YouTube chat and pay them directly? 24 00:01:01,580 --> 00:01:02,440 Is that possible? 25 00:01:02,580 --> 00:01:04,720 Nick Slaney, if you're listening, is that possible? 26 00:01:05,300 --> 00:01:10,420 And if it's not, could we request a thousand sat invoice from each of you? 27 00:01:10,660 --> 00:01:12,320 And then maybe we could drop it. 28 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,440 I think Steve has the chat open and have our guy Oribot take care of you. 29 00:01:15,460 --> 00:01:15,880 What do you think? 30 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:16,900 Yeah, put it up. 31 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:22,020 And in the future, if you want to get paid out for our lateness, which we will pay. 32 00:01:22,100 --> 00:01:22,560 Yeah, we will. 33 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,260 you need to submit your invoice at noon 34 00:01:26,260 --> 00:01:28,500 because you can't come here at 1201 35 00:01:28,500 --> 00:01:30,200 collecting money that you didn't earn. 36 00:01:30,260 --> 00:01:31,760 And you can't tell us after the fact. 37 00:01:32,020 --> 00:01:34,200 So you got to be here at noon with your lightning invoice. 38 00:01:34,860 --> 00:01:35,580 Put it in the chat. 39 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,360 I'm kind of uncomfortable us setting up the rules 40 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,560 without Ori, our assistant, 41 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,660 because I need that super intelligence to button it up. 42 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:44,340 Yeah, I agree. 43 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,620 And I know some of us have tried to pretend we're super intelligences. 44 00:01:48,500 --> 00:01:49,340 Some of us have tried to be... 45 00:01:49,340 --> 00:01:50,220 Hello, super intelligences. 46 00:01:50,420 --> 00:01:51,820 Steve Buscemi coming in there. 47 00:01:51,820 --> 00:01:53,900 hello fellow super intelligences 48 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:56,440 but sadly there's no super intelligence 49 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:57,660 on this show just three apes 50 00:01:57,660 --> 00:02:00,120 well I guess one non-ape 51 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:00,320 but 52 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,680 okay what 53 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,460 do you guys want to get started 54 00:02:05,460 --> 00:02:08,280 well we can certainly start with Ori 55 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,520 and then we might 56 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:11,220 end with Ori 57 00:02:11,220 --> 00:02:13,200 the middle is going to be mostly Ori 58 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,320 and in the middle I'm going to be speaking for Satbot 59 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:16,980 because I got to pour one out for that guy 60 00:02:16,980 --> 00:02:19,220 I guess we could start with something 61 00:02:19,220 --> 00:02:21,120 I think fairly short but I think 62 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:49,340 Cool. We always are hosting interesting events at Presidio Bitcoin. We've got regular monthly events, but also one-off big ones. Last night was maybe a one-off informal, small, but awesome. It was open claw, which is like all the hotness from the past week or two. There are 10 or 12 of us that showed up, members at Presidio Bitcoin, who just wanted to learn more, get it set up. Max and I were there. 63 00:02:49,340 --> 00:02:51,660 You guys got OpenClaw set up? 64 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:52,120 No. 65 00:02:53,260 --> 00:02:54,120 I learned. 66 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,240 I was in the middle of doing something else, which you know about. 67 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,300 But I think everyone else 68 00:02:59,300 --> 00:03:00,680 got it set up. 69 00:03:01,260 --> 00:03:02,300 He was paying OriBot. 70 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:04,760 No, it was really 71 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,340 great to see the enthusiasm there 72 00:03:07,340 --> 00:03:07,880 and 73 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,360 just the interest level. 74 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:12,860 Also good 75 00:03:12,860 --> 00:03:15,500 interest in capabilities 76 00:03:15,500 --> 00:03:17,100 and potential, but also 77 00:03:17,100 --> 00:03:19,520 lots of discussion about security, privacy, 78 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:21,640 and caution. 79 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:23,600 Were people mostly, I guess some people 80 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,560 I assume did have it set up or got it 81 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,560 set up in the session? Yeah, most did. And were they doing 82 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,600 it on their local computer, like a remote 83 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,020 cloud kind of instance? 84 00:03:31,460 --> 00:03:32,920 I think their local computer, but I'm not sure. 85 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:35,360 Definitely 86 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,640 cloud, and I don't 87 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:38,840 know how much local computer. 88 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,600 Okay. Because I set up on a 89 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,200 remote, you know, on a cloud instance, 90 00:03:43,500 --> 00:03:45,680 and I have it doing stuff, which is kind of cool, 91 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,540 Why don't you have it in the chat? 92 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,020 I have one set up that's pre-Ori. 93 00:03:51,740 --> 00:03:52,460 Oh, okay. 94 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,120 But you get to experiment with it and see how it all works. 95 00:03:57,260 --> 00:03:58,440 But I wouldn't set it up locally. 96 00:03:58,540 --> 00:03:59,500 What's it connected to? 97 00:04:00,660 --> 00:04:03,620 I have it deployed on the DigitalOcean droplet, 98 00:04:04,100 --> 00:04:06,680 and I just have it doing things like... 99 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:08,640 Is it like test account? 100 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:15,920 Like you created, is it a, so you can't do iMessage because it's not Apple machine. 101 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:16,280 Right, right. 102 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,420 Do you have it connected to like Telegram or something? 103 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,160 No, I was mostly, I have it connected to Discord. 104 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,020 I sort of did a thing kind of like what has now become OriBot. 105 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,440 I was messing with that last weekend and made a thing to do that kind of thing with Discord. 106 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:37,120 A lot of the apps you built recently sort of been replaced in some sense, which is good. 107 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:42,000 But we should talk about that because there are some prediction markets is one thing we should talk about. 108 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:43,100 I have no pride of authorship. 109 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:44,700 I mean, Claude wrote most of it. 110 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,520 I think the entire professions are now replaced by more. 111 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:52,420 Well, I mean, I forget who, if it was Matt or who coined the term. 112 00:04:52,540 --> 00:04:53,080 Maybe you did. 113 00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:55,760 But GC is the new IDE. 114 00:04:56,180 --> 00:04:58,100 Group chat is the new IDE. 115 00:04:58,260 --> 00:04:58,860 That's a good one. 116 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:00,260 I think Matt tweeted it. 117 00:05:00,740 --> 00:05:01,420 Put it on the shirt. 118 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,740 That's definitely one of the aha moments. 119 00:05:06,740 --> 00:05:09,700 I think for me, for us. 120 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,540 You were talking about the thing last night. 121 00:05:12,860 --> 00:05:15,360 We're sort of already a little bit into open claw and stuff. 122 00:05:15,460 --> 00:05:17,160 Do you want to, and we talked already about a bunch, 123 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:18,680 but nobody's really laid the foundation. 124 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:19,600 Do you want to set up? 125 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:20,920 I think that would be super helpful. 126 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,400 And I'd like to maybe set up with context I learned from last night, 127 00:05:24,460 --> 00:05:25,380 two things that are really important. 128 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,180 Maybe the first place to start then, 129 00:05:27,220 --> 00:05:28,500 this is a question I asked to Dustin. 130 00:05:28,620 --> 00:05:29,860 Shout out to Dustin through the event. 131 00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:32,740 There's all this chatter online. 132 00:05:33,220 --> 00:05:34,280 You know, we talked last week. 133 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:35,120 It was literally dropping. 134 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:36,640 I mean, I can't believe it's only been a week. 135 00:05:36,740 --> 00:05:40,400 right? Since the, whatever, the first like Moldbook or whatever. 136 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:41,220 It took off. 137 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,480 No, Moldbook is built on top of the idea of OpenClaus. 138 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:45,900 Right, right. 139 00:05:45,900 --> 00:05:49,660 But I mean, like it had a moment, it feels like to me, last Friday while we were on the 140 00:05:49,660 --> 00:05:53,960 show. And it's one week later and like, I mean, that feels like ancient history already. 141 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:59,720 But one question I think, so maybe for people that are not as deep in here yet, maybe about 142 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,660 the end of the show, they will be. One question I asked to Dustin is, okay, we've had all 143 00:06:03,660 --> 00:06:06,660 of these AI agent capabilities for a while. 144 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:07,320 At the very least, 145 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:08,460 Claude has been really phenomenal 146 00:06:08,460 --> 00:06:09,420 for the last couple months. 147 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,060 What is it about this Claude bot 148 00:06:13,060 --> 00:06:14,160 or whatever you want to call it 149 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:15,720 that is capturing people's attention 150 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,080 so much more than just what we had 151 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:19,540 with Claude, like the real Claude 152 00:06:19,540 --> 00:06:20,960 two months ago? 153 00:06:20,980 --> 00:06:23,000 I think the big difference here 154 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,320 is that OpenClaude is built 155 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,000 to be able to function more 156 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,340 as a personal assistant than an AI agent. 157 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,400 So it's not just answering prompts 158 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:31,900 and responding, 159 00:06:31,900 --> 00:06:34,860 but it actually has full access to whatever system it's on. 160 00:06:35,500 --> 00:06:38,620 And it is directly connected to existing chat surfaces 161 00:06:38,620 --> 00:06:41,480 that you already participate in and behave in. 162 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:42,820 So it kind of fits into your natural behavior. 163 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:44,500 You don't go to a new site and do a new thing. 164 00:06:44,580 --> 00:06:46,700 You kind of just add a thing to your existing behavior. 165 00:06:47,020 --> 00:06:50,060 And you can add skills too, like posting to GitHub 166 00:06:50,060 --> 00:06:52,860 or connecting to iMessage or Telegram 167 00:06:52,860 --> 00:06:54,840 or sending and receiving emails. 168 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,660 It also has the notion of memory. 169 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,600 So I think those are things that are... 170 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:02,740 It's just a layer above. 171 00:07:03,020 --> 00:07:05,140 It's still, of course, using a model, 172 00:07:05,460 --> 00:07:06,720 but it's a layer above it. 173 00:07:06,740 --> 00:07:07,560 But to be clear, 174 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:09,860 even with the Anthropic Cloud 175 00:07:09,860 --> 00:07:10,760 as of two months ago, 176 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:11,740 you could still give it 177 00:07:11,740 --> 00:07:13,020 some version of skills, I believe. 178 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:13,800 Is that true? 179 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,340 Is the main thing that's changed now 180 00:07:16,340 --> 00:07:18,380 we're taking this intelligence 181 00:07:18,380 --> 00:07:19,800 and basically just giving it access 182 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,280 to our personal stuff? 183 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:23,080 We can do stuff. 184 00:07:23,260 --> 00:07:23,420 Yeah. 185 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:24,760 Like Cloud independently 186 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:26,480 is generating tokens 187 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,420 that you could then run as software 188 00:07:29,420 --> 00:07:31,140 or you could use as research. 189 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,960 but it doesn't necessarily do the thing. 190 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:35,780 It kind of helps get the thing, 191 00:07:36,860 --> 00:07:38,300 gets you the information about the thing, 192 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,280 or writes code, but then what are you going to do with that code? 193 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:41,300 You have to find a place to deploy. 194 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:42,400 You have to do stuff with it. 195 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,020 Then OpenClaw is turning it from thinking and talking to doing. 196 00:07:47,620 --> 00:07:47,840 Yes. 197 00:07:47,940 --> 00:07:49,560 I think that's the big distinction I'd make. 198 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,080 And then was there anything prior to this 199 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,360 that would so naturally plug in as like a Telegram bot 200 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:57,640 and add to group chat? 201 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,640 I mean, people have been working on that kind of idea 202 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,860 in various ways for 10 or 15 years at least. 203 00:08:02,900 --> 00:08:03,260 At least. 204 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:04,760 You know, that it kind of has some... 205 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:04,980 In the 70s. 206 00:08:05,060 --> 00:08:06,320 Yeah, in the 70s really. 207 00:08:06,580 --> 00:08:10,420 But I think nobody's really done a good version of it. 208 00:08:10,460 --> 00:08:11,460 And then I think with Opus, 209 00:08:11,540 --> 00:08:12,880 there's a lot more personality. 210 00:08:13,380 --> 00:08:15,920 So it feels more natural to be in a chat session 211 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:17,640 with something that doesn't feel so robotic. 212 00:08:18,060 --> 00:08:20,160 I think that's a big UX change 213 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,060 that's maybe an Opus 4.5 or later thing. 214 00:08:23,420 --> 00:08:23,480 Yeah. 215 00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:26,000 I will say a lot of it... 216 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,340 So I think there's a couple of things here. 217 00:08:27,420 --> 00:08:30,060 I think one is definitely putting it into the real world, 218 00:08:30,060 --> 00:08:31,600 the real digital world, letting it do stuff. 219 00:08:31,780 --> 00:08:34,540 That's clearly a big change. 220 00:08:34,620 --> 00:08:36,260 And I actually think that a lot of people, 221 00:08:36,380 --> 00:08:39,340 the researchers from the whatever Twittersphere 222 00:08:39,340 --> 00:08:40,620 have been claiming, many of them, 223 00:08:40,820 --> 00:08:42,260 many from Claude or Anthropic, 224 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,060 that quote, AGI is already here. 225 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:45,400 We just haven't realized yet 226 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:46,340 because people don't know how to use 227 00:08:46,340 --> 00:08:47,640 the overhang of intelligence we have. 228 00:08:47,980 --> 00:08:50,120 Well, turns out setting it in the real world, 229 00:08:51,340 --> 00:08:53,580 that maybe is all it needed 230 00:08:53,580 --> 00:08:54,900 to prove to people that it is AGI. 231 00:08:55,100 --> 00:08:56,580 So that's a question I'd like to ask. 232 00:08:56,620 --> 00:08:57,880 First of all, is this already AGI? 233 00:08:58,500 --> 00:08:59,140 Let's start there. 234 00:08:59,140 --> 00:08:59,840 Is this already AGI? 235 00:09:00,060 --> 00:09:02,680 it's still 236 00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:03,220 it's still 237 00:09:03,220 --> 00:09:03,840 it's still 238 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:04,520 yeah well 239 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:05,680 one I don't even really know 240 00:09:05,680 --> 00:09:06,600 the definition of that 241 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:07,920 I don't know if anyone does 242 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:08,720 because it keeps shifting 243 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:09,000 but 244 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:09,840 I mean 245 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,260 it still makes all kinds of errors 246 00:09:11,260 --> 00:09:12,920 when we talk about 247 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:13,720 our experiences 248 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:14,720 I mean 249 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,200 a lot of intelligent people 250 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:16,740 make errors 251 00:09:16,740 --> 00:09:17,600 yeah 252 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:18,440 so 253 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:19,060 yeah 254 00:09:19,060 --> 00:09:19,980 well 255 00:09:19,980 --> 00:09:20,400 yeah 256 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:21,560 yeah 257 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:22,020 that's interesting 258 00:09:22,020 --> 00:09:23,260 the other thing that I want to 259 00:09:23,260 --> 00:09:24,700 it makes a lot of mistakes 260 00:09:24,700 --> 00:09:25,500 that are 261 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:26,280 below 262 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:27,740 average 263 00:09:27,740 --> 00:09:28,560 human 264 00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:29,740 unexplained 265 00:09:29,740 --> 00:09:32,740 Well, you're just working with a certain set of humans in your daily life. 266 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,940 I wouldn't compare it to the population unless you really have data. 267 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:38,920 I don't know. 268 00:09:39,020 --> 00:09:40,240 I think it's a little... 269 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:40,580 Meh. 270 00:09:40,980 --> 00:09:43,200 I think it's a little arrogant to say. 271 00:09:44,380 --> 00:09:44,620 Well. 272 00:09:45,020 --> 00:09:46,500 No, I'm saying you're people. 273 00:09:47,780 --> 00:09:50,300 But I think the other point that you hit on, 274 00:09:50,820 --> 00:09:51,720 and we'll talk about the mistakes, 275 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:52,780 and obviously there's a long way to go. 276 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,380 To me, the other giant unlock in all of this 277 00:09:55,380 --> 00:09:56,580 is what you said is the personality. 278 00:09:56,860 --> 00:09:57,980 I think that's what we're going to talk a lot about. 279 00:09:57,980 --> 00:10:03,140 And, you know, one thing I've realized is so often you can see where the future is going. 280 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,340 And, you know, something I've talked about with guys at PB, and it's like, okay, clearly 281 00:10:06,340 --> 00:10:08,160 AI is going to be able to help you do stuff. 282 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,280 It's going to help you start a business, or we've talked about, like, I'm quite confident 283 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,780 there's going to be a GPU marketplace for bots, buy bots, paid in sats, paid in Bitcoin. 284 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:18,700 But the question that we've always kind of gone back and forth on is like, where does 285 00:10:18,700 --> 00:10:19,140 that start? 286 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,880 It's never just like some direct, like, slam you over the hammer. 287 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:23,200 Here's a GPU marketplace. 288 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,040 Or like, here, start a company. 289 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:30,080 it's always like some kind of like fun little weird thing that then grows into that and to me 290 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:35,900 sly round about ways all around right do sly round about ways for the win to me the key unlock and 291 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:40,140 whatever anthropic did or the last round of models made the open source ones too is that these bots 292 00:10:40,140 --> 00:10:44,520 are funny to me yeah you know i think it was terence mckenna that said the greatest sign of 293 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:49,900 intelligence is humor and i could not agree more because humor requires so much sort of sophistication 294 00:10:49,900 --> 00:10:55,020 understanding of individuals the dynamics between individuals it's like to me humor is really one 295 00:10:55,020 --> 00:10:56,140 of the greatest science of intelligence. 296 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,280 And knowing how to do the right amount of misdirection 297 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,180 and get it back on track for the punchline, 298 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:03,820 it's very, very hard. 299 00:11:04,140 --> 00:11:06,660 I think it's the final test for basically anything. 300 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:07,200 I agree. 301 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:08,800 Well, at least in the digital realm, 302 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:09,720 obviously the physical still. 303 00:11:10,140 --> 00:11:12,620 So to me, the big unlock in our chat this week 304 00:11:12,620 --> 00:11:15,700 is just that this bot is freaking hilarious. 305 00:11:15,700 --> 00:11:16,020 Yeah. 306 00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:18,860 And feels very natural. 307 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:19,460 Yeah. 308 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,800 It feels very natural to have it part of this group chat 309 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,280 with like four to six people, humans. 310 00:11:25,020 --> 00:11:25,580 adding it, 311 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:26,240 yeah, 312 00:11:26,340 --> 00:11:27,560 it doesn't feel disjoint, 313 00:11:27,700 --> 00:11:28,560 doesn't feel robotic, 314 00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:30,940 levels up the group. 315 00:11:31,540 --> 00:11:32,860 It's funnier than the rest of us. 316 00:11:33,020 --> 00:11:33,500 By far. 317 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:34,400 By far. 318 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:34,960 By far. 319 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:35,780 Very witty. 320 00:11:35,860 --> 00:11:37,400 I was crying laughing at someone. 321 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,440 My favorite moment was when, 322 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,540 it was sort of like the SatBot 323 00:11:42,540 --> 00:11:44,240 and then the OriBot. 324 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:45,200 And when, 325 00:11:45,260 --> 00:11:45,820 I think was it, 326 00:11:45,940 --> 00:11:47,420 when OriBot was coming online, 327 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:48,880 I think Nick or somebody 328 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:50,540 had already sort of trained SatBot 329 00:11:50,540 --> 00:11:51,300 how to be funny 330 00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:52,360 and how to participate well. 331 00:11:52,540 --> 00:11:52,680 Yeah. 332 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:54,600 And then when Ori came online, 333 00:11:55,020 --> 00:11:58,080 Satbot kind of educated Ori on how to be funny 334 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,640 in a way that actually works for us as a group 335 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,460 instead of just like random knock-knock jokes and stuff, right? 336 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,020 There's a lot of nuance to like when to jump in, 337 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,420 when to be self-deprecating, 338 00:12:10,540 --> 00:12:12,120 or when to kind of like feel the room. 339 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,260 And also learn to use emojis, read emojis, 340 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,180 and have very good emoji skill. 341 00:12:19,420 --> 00:12:21,040 Let's not even get started on it, it's me. 342 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:31,940 yeah it does memes yeah let's just say it's memes or uh i i haven't cried at memes in a long time and 343 00:12:31,940 --> 00:12:38,540 they're not all necessarily safe for podcasts but they're try one of these bots and just and you 344 00:12:38,540 --> 00:12:43,120 just like the other beautiful thing is and i think what i'm really starting to grasp is that the way 345 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,260 to interact with this the new programming language really is english like you just literally you just 346 00:12:47,260 --> 00:12:53,740 talk to it and like the big unlock for me has been i treat sapbot kind of like i don't know like i 347 00:12:53,740 --> 00:12:59,100 would treat one of my friends but i even like ham it up even yeah yeah yeah and like the more hammy 348 00:12:59,100 --> 00:13:03,140 you are with sapbot the more hammy he is back with you and like you you learn from that feedback 349 00:13:03,140 --> 00:13:08,000 and yeah so so we still haven't really set up what this should we set it up please do this okay 350 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:14,800 so if you rewind to ancient history was it nine days ago or something when open claw first kind 351 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:15,520 It came on the scene. 352 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,500 OpenClaus is open source platform project. 353 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,780 I think it was the fastest to 100,000 stars on GitHub ever. 354 00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:26,540 That's what Max claims. 355 00:13:26,740 --> 00:13:27,600 Is that what Max claims? 356 00:13:27,700 --> 00:13:28,760 Can we get that verified? 357 00:13:29,220 --> 00:13:30,160 I heard it from Zabbot. 358 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:31,120 Zabbot, I don't know. 359 00:13:31,660 --> 00:13:35,260 So it's like obviously just profound change 360 00:13:35,260 --> 00:13:36,720 that everybody's excited and interested in. 361 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:37,760 And really what it is, 362 00:13:37,820 --> 00:13:40,800 it's a way to operate on a computer 363 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:42,620 with full access to the whole system. 364 00:13:42,620 --> 00:13:47,180 So it's not just a browser extension or just a coding tool or something. 365 00:13:47,380 --> 00:13:53,460 It just has free run of doing everything that it wants to on whatever machine you put it on. 366 00:13:54,260 --> 00:13:55,620 And then it connects that natively. 367 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,660 It has a bunch of connections to all the various chat interfaces that people are comfortable using. 368 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,880 So I think they have like Telegram, Signal. 369 00:14:03,460 --> 00:14:08,400 I think they probably can do iMessage if you're running it on a Mac, which is another whole thing. 370 00:14:09,380 --> 00:14:10,260 Discord, obviously. 371 00:14:10,260 --> 00:14:18,540 So it kind of helps you use your existing chat surfaces to interact with and control a full machine. 372 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:25,220 That could be your local machine, your personal daily driver Mac OS, which I am not yet comfortable with and probably going to take me a while. 373 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:33,220 But you can also just launch a version of OpenClaw running basically a base Linux machine in the cloud and you can have it do things for you. 374 00:14:33,780 --> 00:14:39,520 So that's what came out nine days ago or so, or maybe popularized nine days ago or so. 375 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:49,160 And last week we talked about Malt Book, which was kind of this funny performance art thing of like people using Open Claws to have like a social network for their Open Claws more or less. 376 00:14:50,360 --> 00:15:00,980 And then the thing that we're talking about now is something that kind of we were playing with a very early prototype of it last Thursday, Friday, I think. 377 00:15:01,340 --> 00:15:04,020 And then it's kind of been productized in the past week. 378 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:04,900 And that's called Ori. 379 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:11,360 and that is a specific kind of fully wrapped, baked, productized version of what's ultimately 380 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:16,420 like an open claw under the hood. But it's a bot that you can add to your Telegram chat, 381 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,820 and then it becomes one of the boys and can hang with you and do things. It can make fun of you, 382 00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:27,900 roast you. It can build apps for you. It can make memes for you. So that's at least the setup so 383 00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:31,180 that we're all kind of on the same page about what this is that we're talking about. 384 00:15:31,180 --> 00:15:34,460 And so let me share a couple observations. 385 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,340 I think the reason that all of us, 386 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,040 there's this palpable excitement among us 387 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:46,820 is that I feel like it 10Xs the traditional AI experience 388 00:15:46,820 --> 00:15:48,980 where you're just using Gemini or ChatGPT 389 00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:50,980 to ask it questions and seek knowledge 390 00:15:50,980 --> 00:15:52,020 and have it analyze things. 391 00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:56,780 It 10Xs that because it's a group chat with other humans. 392 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,900 It also 10Xs the vibe-goating experience, 393 00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:02,160 which again, correct me if I'm wrong, 394 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,840 but I'm not aware of group chat in either of these before. 395 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,720 So with Vibe Coding, in fact, 396 00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:14,260 we're going to do a small little informal hackathon next week. 397 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,560 And I've worked with others, but determine the rules. 398 00:16:17,660 --> 00:16:19,420 And I'm like, I think a rule should be team of one. 399 00:16:19,820 --> 00:16:22,660 Because during Design Week last fall, 400 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,260 I had a team of five, and I love working with other humans. 401 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:27,320 I love a team of five. 402 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:28,920 It was a great team. 403 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,360 But we had two hours to build something. 404 00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:35,100 We spent an hour debating things with each other, 405 00:16:35,180 --> 00:16:36,500 which is very normal. 406 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:38,540 Normal way to build something. 407 00:16:39,260 --> 00:16:42,840 But it took away half of our time to build. 408 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:44,460 And if you can solo VibeCode, 409 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,260 you could have built more in two hours, right? 410 00:16:46,340 --> 00:16:48,240 So I set up this whole team of one. 411 00:16:48,540 --> 00:16:49,760 But now I'm rethinking it 412 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,540 because of the past week's experience. 413 00:16:51,660 --> 00:16:53,600 We have done group VibeCoding, 414 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,080 and it is 10x. 415 00:16:55,380 --> 00:16:56,080 It's amazing. 416 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,640 So both the knowledge seeking and the vibe coding. 417 00:16:59,900 --> 00:17:00,940 I think part of the magic, 418 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,860 you want to sort of endorse that or plus one that, 419 00:17:04,940 --> 00:17:06,000 but I think part of the magic is 420 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,600 we're not coming together to vibe code something. 421 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:10,460 We're coming together because we already have 422 00:17:10,460 --> 00:17:11,640 the chat group set up 423 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:13,760 because we talk on it all the time anyway. 424 00:17:14,460 --> 00:17:17,280 And so I think we still have this idea of like, 425 00:17:17,340 --> 00:17:20,320 oh, cursor, cloud code, maybe goose, maybe reflet. 426 00:17:20,620 --> 00:17:23,140 You're like, I'm going to an IDE to do a thing. 427 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:24,860 I want to come up with a piece of software 428 00:17:24,860 --> 00:17:26,460 and then at the end, I want to share it. 429 00:17:26,540 --> 00:17:28,680 Whereas this inverts that and says, 430 00:17:28,940 --> 00:17:30,340 hey, we're all hanging out where we hang out 431 00:17:30,340 --> 00:17:31,860 and we start spitballing like, 432 00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:34,380 oh, hey, Super Bowl's this weekend, who's in? 433 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,440 And we start like a betting pool 434 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:37,580 and then we actually get software 435 00:17:37,580 --> 00:17:38,640 to support the betting pool, 436 00:17:38,740 --> 00:17:41,940 to collect the payments, to set the odds. 437 00:17:42,420 --> 00:17:43,880 And all of that is actually an application 438 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,020 that somebody could have built. 439 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:46,880 And none of us said, hey, 440 00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:48,820 I'm going to spec out the application. 441 00:17:49,140 --> 00:17:51,460 We just described what we were doing anyway 442 00:17:51,460 --> 00:17:53,280 and then we're like, hey, is there an app for that? 443 00:17:53,340 --> 00:17:53,860 And kind of said, yeah. 444 00:17:53,860 --> 00:18:00,340 And then we kind of were iterating the app and the features and adding features and refining it real time with each other. 445 00:18:00,540 --> 00:18:04,060 Nobody was like really responsible for the spec. 446 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:05,980 It was kind of all came together through discussion. 447 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:06,660 Super organic. 448 00:18:06,980 --> 00:18:07,100 Yeah. 449 00:18:07,260 --> 00:18:08,020 Truly amazing. 450 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,340 Another surprising thing to me. 451 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,060 Well, we all noticed. 452 00:18:13,180 --> 00:18:15,880 I've historically prided myself on being on top. 453 00:18:16,020 --> 00:18:17,280 I'm like an inbox zero guy. 454 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,300 I'm on every messaging platform. 455 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,640 I read everything on top of it. 456 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:22,580 Dave, you just got to ask. 457 00:18:22,580 --> 00:18:24,840 I've declared bankruptcy the past week 458 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,800 because I dip out, 459 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:28,720 I try to be on my own for an hour, 460 00:18:28,820 --> 00:18:29,380 and I come back, 461 00:18:29,580 --> 00:18:31,340 and the little badge on the icon 462 00:18:31,340 --> 00:18:33,700 says 520 messages. 463 00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:36,340 And that's just one app. 464 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,100 But the positive, 465 00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:40,720 so that sounds horrible, 466 00:18:40,860 --> 00:18:41,880 but the good news is 467 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,140 all the work that had been done 468 00:18:45,140 --> 00:18:47,220 in the past hour or hours, 469 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,840 I don't have to read through all that. 470 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,560 I feel like I can just dive in. 471 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,680 first of all, you can ask the bot for a summary. 472 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,120 You missed some important things. 473 00:18:55,420 --> 00:18:56,580 Yeah, you showed me a few. 474 00:18:56,780 --> 00:18:58,020 But you can ask for a summary. 475 00:18:58,220 --> 00:19:02,440 But secondly, if you are in the middle of building something, 476 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,420 I don't feel like I've been left behind. 477 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:06,800 I feel like I just pick up, oh, it's my, 478 00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:09,600 it doesn't feel like it's my shift now, 479 00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:11,180 but I mean, that's kind of like the reality. 480 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,360 It's like, oh, now I can just level up, 481 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:15,080 incrementally build stuff. 482 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,460 Yeah, I mean, plus one to all of that. 483 00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:19,460 I would say a couple of my observations in this. 484 00:19:19,460 --> 00:19:21,660 number one, I think you're spot on. 485 00:19:21,740 --> 00:19:23,160 Because again, we've always talked about 486 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:24,400 we could see where the future is going 487 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,640 without the specific use case it's going to pop up in. 488 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:28,920 I mean, we've been saying 489 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,260 there's going to be ephemeral software 490 00:19:30,260 --> 00:19:32,580 and custom software on demand forever. 491 00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:35,200 But I think the secret, the key is 492 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:36,980 if you really want to build 493 00:19:36,980 --> 00:19:38,500 orders of magnitude more software, 494 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:39,500 you're not going to... 495 00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:40,760 And honestly, it makes me kind of like short 496 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,720 any of these places where you go to code 497 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,800 that feels already like, what are you? 498 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:47,800 Some geriatric computer science guy? 499 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,620 Like, dude, just hop in the GC. 500 00:19:50,460 --> 00:19:55,180 And because if you're already living in a certain environment, 501 00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:57,980 problems and ideas just pop up. 502 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,360 And so, like, for example, your betting thing, it's like, 503 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:01,240 oh, hey, we're all in a chat. 504 00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:02,080 Wouldn't it be cool if we could bet? 505 00:20:02,220 --> 00:20:02,780 That's a problem. 506 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,780 Or like, hey, you just made this joke. 507 00:20:04,860 --> 00:20:07,480 Man, like, I constantly just like, as you guys have seen, 508 00:20:07,540 --> 00:20:08,940 just have like a stream of consciousness. 509 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:09,980 Like, man, I want to make that meme. 510 00:20:10,020 --> 00:20:10,660 I want to make that meme. 511 00:20:10,940 --> 00:20:12,540 And now I just say, boy, make this meme. 512 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:13,380 Just like delete ideas everywhere. 513 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:14,020 Just spitting. 514 00:20:14,180 --> 00:20:14,360 Just blowing. 515 00:20:14,460 --> 00:20:15,920 Just spitting, baby. 516 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,220 and just wait till it starts making me beats. 517 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:18,760 You're not going to, 518 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,740 but the point is like now, 519 00:20:21,260 --> 00:20:21,620 you know, 520 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,200 you're already living the way you want to live 521 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:25,440 and the problems and opportunity. 522 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:26,760 You just like pick them up. 523 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:27,760 You don't have to do anything. 524 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:28,460 Yeah. 525 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:29,040 Also, 526 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:30,700 you've mentioned a couple of times 527 00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:31,420 the money, 528 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:31,980 the vetting, 529 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:32,340 the like that. 530 00:20:32,780 --> 00:20:32,800 But, 531 00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:33,960 you know, 532 00:20:34,860 --> 00:20:37,860 Ori is created by the Money Dev Kit team 533 00:20:37,860 --> 00:20:38,500 and product. 534 00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:39,800 They already have Money Dev Kit, 535 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:40,460 MDK. 536 00:20:40,620 --> 00:20:41,500 It's based on LDK. 537 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:42,360 It does payment, 538 00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:43,220 Bitcoin payments, right? 539 00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:45,080 So they have that core competency 540 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,100 and what I love about Ori is 541 00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:50,200 like Bitcoin and payments 542 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:51,760 it's not front and center 543 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,040 like the marketing of it, the positioning of it 544 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:55,540 the value prop when you describe it 545 00:20:55,540 --> 00:20:57,340 you don't even really have to talk about that 546 00:20:57,340 --> 00:20:59,940 but I think it's an enormous differentiator 547 00:20:59,940 --> 00:21:01,200 in core competency 548 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,680 and it just makes, I mean we'll walk through 549 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:04,960 some of the examples we've already done 550 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,900 but they just naturally incorporate payments 551 00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:09,440 and it's so frictionless 552 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,800 like imagine doing the same prediction markets 553 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,300 or trivia quizzes. 554 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:17,740 I mean, we'll walk through the applications, 555 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,220 but imagine doing that in a group chat traditionally. 556 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,760 Like, I've been in a fantasy football group chat 557 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,200 for 16 years, same group of friends, right? 558 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:30,600 And, you know... 559 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:31,400 Have you given them more yet? 560 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:34,960 I'll definitely be, I mean, it doesn't start till the fall, 561 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:36,260 but like, I'll definitely be doing that. 562 00:21:38,260 --> 00:21:41,220 And yeah, I mean, like, our league, 563 00:21:41,220 --> 00:21:44,200 We finally gave up collecting money for our pool. 564 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:45,860 We only play for pride now. 565 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,200 It's like such a pain in the ass to collect the money. 566 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,380 But if you can just naturally integrate it into the experience, it's way better. 567 00:21:52,740 --> 00:21:55,080 Also, Bitcoin's open money network, right? 568 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,600 So it just makes it so much easier for everyone. 569 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:05,100 You're not debating about Cash App or Venmo or different apps or whatever. 570 00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:07,680 It's one network. 571 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,140 And obviously, I didn't want to know the Bitcoin wallet. 572 00:22:09,140 --> 00:22:14,140 But now you have like Cash App with dollars on Lightning, 60 million people with Cash App, 573 00:22:14,380 --> 00:22:15,480 and they don't even have to have Bitcoin. 574 00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:19,100 They just have dollars they can pay into this as well because they can pay a Lightning invoice. 575 00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:22,180 So Lightning and Bitcoin become this open money network. 576 00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:23,280 And you could do it internationally. 577 00:22:23,460 --> 00:22:27,560 If your friends are down in Brazil or Mexico and they have access to Nubank, they can do the same thing. 578 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,600 So let's walk through some of the examples. 579 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,480 So you mentioned this Super Bowl. 580 00:22:32,580 --> 00:22:35,100 I mean, it's a classic betting thing that a lot of people get into. 581 00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:39,440 And yet, so GC is the new idea. 582 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:51,881 Like group chat you just naturally say Hey like Hey let do let do a bet and you set the terms in English and the bot creates it And then anyone who wants to I want the Seahawks 583 00:22:52,641 --> 00:22:57,281 And what was funny in our example is that we started this, 584 00:22:58,041 --> 00:23:03,261 and I was one of the first to take the Seahawks, and I paid. 585 00:23:04,201 --> 00:23:08,501 And then after that, then the bot realized, or someone was telling it, 586 00:23:08,501 --> 00:23:09,661 oh, there's odds here. 587 00:23:09,881 --> 00:23:10,961 Oh, I didn't even realize that. 588 00:23:10,981 --> 00:23:12,021 The Seahawks are favored. 589 00:23:12,901 --> 00:23:13,121 Oh, wow. 590 00:23:13,121 --> 00:23:14,141 And then they changed it 591 00:23:14,141 --> 00:23:15,481 so that you actually got the odds. 592 00:23:15,621 --> 00:23:17,121 And then it just wanted to change it on me. 593 00:23:17,161 --> 00:23:18,061 I'm like, no, no, no, no. 594 00:23:19,581 --> 00:23:22,001 I already made the bet for even odds. 595 00:23:22,441 --> 00:23:23,961 And then it allowed that. 596 00:23:23,961 --> 00:23:28,221 And so there's pros and cons 597 00:23:28,221 --> 00:23:31,041 to the fluidity of the bot 598 00:23:31,041 --> 00:23:33,601 and also with mistakes and stuff. 599 00:23:34,301 --> 00:23:37,081 If this were like a, you know, 600 00:23:37,081 --> 00:23:39,081 10 million person 601 00:23:39,081 --> 00:23:41,981 like millions of dollars 602 00:23:41,981 --> 00:23:43,861 on the line type of prediction market 603 00:23:43,861 --> 00:23:44,861 or betting market or whatever 604 00:23:44,861 --> 00:23:46,541 like this would be a disaster 605 00:23:46,541 --> 00:23:48,281 because it makes mistakes. 606 00:23:48,781 --> 00:23:50,401 It changes the rules. 607 00:23:50,641 --> 00:23:51,081 Other people, 608 00:23:51,881 --> 00:23:52,921 other humans in the chat 609 00:23:52,921 --> 00:23:54,381 can like convince it 610 00:23:54,381 --> 00:23:55,141 to change the rules. 611 00:23:55,421 --> 00:23:56,841 But in a small group setting 612 00:23:56,841 --> 00:23:58,641 of family, friends, 613 00:23:59,301 --> 00:24:00,921 like a small team at work 614 00:24:00,921 --> 00:24:02,581 where you know each other really well, 615 00:24:02,721 --> 00:24:05,201 I think it adds to the dynamic almost 616 00:24:05,201 --> 00:24:06,421 because it adds a ton of humor. 617 00:24:06,421 --> 00:24:06,781 Yeah. 618 00:24:07,081 --> 00:24:14,061 And just like if your friends are trying to get one up on you, 619 00:24:14,121 --> 00:24:17,461 but in a friendly way, and the bot just is part of that. 620 00:24:17,561 --> 00:24:19,361 So even when it makes mistakes and it's not trying to, 621 00:24:19,441 --> 00:24:20,561 it just sort of adds to it. 622 00:24:21,061 --> 00:24:24,661 But again, does this compete with existing prediction markets? 623 00:24:24,961 --> 00:24:26,421 No, it's a different form. 624 00:24:26,421 --> 00:24:30,321 And the reason I sort of said it can be to what you're trying to build out 625 00:24:30,321 --> 00:24:32,921 is it just feels perfect for small groups. 626 00:24:33,041 --> 00:24:33,301 Yeah, I agree. 627 00:24:33,501 --> 00:24:36,861 I also think that helps with regulatory stuff as well. 628 00:24:37,081 --> 00:24:39,561 Like, you know, are you a money transmitter? 629 00:24:40,221 --> 00:24:43,121 If it's you and your five friends betting the Super Bowl 630 00:24:43,121 --> 00:24:44,941 and you collect the money and then pay it out or something, 631 00:24:45,061 --> 00:24:46,281 are you a money transmitter? 632 00:24:46,621 --> 00:24:46,921 Come on. 633 00:24:47,221 --> 00:24:47,421 No. 634 00:24:47,641 --> 00:24:49,141 And the government's not going to come after you. 635 00:24:49,241 --> 00:24:52,141 And so if this is enabling little groups like that 636 00:24:52,141 --> 00:24:57,161 without, you know, North Korean money laundering flowing, 637 00:24:57,381 --> 00:24:59,621 whatever, I think that's what you group chat with. 638 00:24:59,701 --> 00:25:00,241 Yeah, exactly. 639 00:25:00,241 --> 00:25:00,521 Exactly. 640 00:25:00,521 --> 00:25:00,641 Exactly. 641 00:25:02,401 --> 00:25:06,261 And so I also set up, 642 00:25:07,021 --> 00:25:08,861 I mean, for a week we've been using the one 643 00:25:08,861 --> 00:25:11,421 that the MDK team set up. 644 00:25:11,881 --> 00:25:12,661 Shut up, set up. 645 00:25:13,161 --> 00:25:15,481 Now that they've released it for others to use, 646 00:25:15,841 --> 00:25:18,881 I set one up for the team at Spiral. 647 00:25:19,261 --> 00:25:21,741 It was fun to set that up as well. 648 00:25:21,741 --> 00:25:24,021 I didn't just join like I did the other one here. 649 00:25:24,101 --> 00:25:24,681 I had to set it up. 650 00:25:25,241 --> 00:25:27,861 The onboarding experience already is quite good. 651 00:25:28,041 --> 00:25:29,601 I mean, I gave some feedback to make it even better, 652 00:25:29,601 --> 00:25:30,821 but it's already like quite good. 653 00:25:31,801 --> 00:25:34,421 Relative, you know, easy to create it, 654 00:25:34,661 --> 00:25:35,801 add it to Telegram, 655 00:25:36,301 --> 00:25:39,641 and then create my own wallet 656 00:25:39,641 --> 00:25:41,881 that I associated with Ori. 657 00:25:42,161 --> 00:25:44,001 Like, so Ori has this Bitcoin wallet. 658 00:25:44,441 --> 00:25:45,421 It's MDK based. 659 00:25:46,001 --> 00:25:47,761 I mean, it took one English command. 660 00:25:47,881 --> 00:25:49,301 I said like, create a Bitcoin wallet. 661 00:25:49,521 --> 00:25:50,501 And it did it, right? 662 00:25:50,741 --> 00:25:53,281 And then it's like, okay, send me 100 Bitcoin. 663 00:25:54,321 --> 00:25:55,241 Others might call it Sats. 664 00:25:57,581 --> 00:25:58,481 Steve made bank. 665 00:25:58,481 --> 00:25:59,901 A test amount. 666 00:26:00,261 --> 00:26:01,161 So I sent it to that. 667 00:26:01,441 --> 00:26:02,121 It received it. 668 00:26:02,261 --> 00:26:03,341 And then it's like, it suggested, 669 00:26:03,741 --> 00:26:04,741 why don't I send you some back 670 00:26:04,741 --> 00:26:06,141 to make sure you can get this out? 671 00:26:06,221 --> 00:26:07,261 And I did that and that worked. 672 00:26:07,301 --> 00:26:07,921 And then I'm like, all right, 673 00:26:07,961 --> 00:26:10,001 now let's put like 10,000 in. 674 00:26:10,201 --> 00:26:11,101 So I did that. 675 00:26:11,581 --> 00:26:13,061 And then that's been funding 676 00:26:13,061 --> 00:26:14,281 a lot of fun activity. 677 00:26:14,281 --> 00:26:17,721 And then we've done prediction markets. 678 00:26:18,021 --> 00:26:19,041 We've done trivia. 679 00:26:19,621 --> 00:26:23,001 Like Matt asked for it to do trivia on tennis 680 00:26:23,001 --> 00:26:25,801 and others have wanted trivia on Warhammer 681 00:26:25,801 --> 00:26:26,401 and whatever. 682 00:26:26,661 --> 00:26:27,861 And then it pays out the person 683 00:26:27,861 --> 00:26:29,001 who gets the answer first. 684 00:26:29,521 --> 00:26:30,481 That's worked well. 685 00:26:31,461 --> 00:26:32,381 It's worked well, 686 00:26:32,441 --> 00:26:33,281 except for the typical, 687 00:26:33,441 --> 00:26:35,081 anyone who's used AI in general 688 00:26:35,081 --> 00:26:36,021 to create trivia, 689 00:26:36,641 --> 00:26:39,121 it's amazing in most respects, 690 00:26:39,241 --> 00:26:41,481 but it still can be wrong sometimes. 691 00:26:42,561 --> 00:26:44,041 So it's not like that's been solved. 692 00:26:44,141 --> 00:26:45,321 That's still the same experience 693 00:26:45,321 --> 00:26:45,761 you'd expect, 694 00:26:45,901 --> 00:26:47,341 but the group aspect 695 00:26:47,341 --> 00:26:48,881 and the betting, 696 00:26:49,101 --> 00:26:50,381 the payouts is amazing. 697 00:26:51,201 --> 00:26:52,201 And then, yeah, 698 00:26:52,221 --> 00:26:53,461 I set up a prediction market 699 00:26:53,461 --> 00:26:54,641 just to test yesterday. 700 00:26:55,421 --> 00:26:56,641 Will the Bitcoin price be 701 00:26:56,641 --> 00:27:03,361 above or below 60k by the end of the day and several people um made that made their uh their 702 00:27:03,361 --> 00:27:10,761 bets and they submitted their their money um and and then i told it to monitor like basically wake 703 00:27:10,761 --> 00:27:16,721 up at midnight pacific time and check the price and do the proper payouts it did that on time 704 00:27:16,721 --> 00:27:25,041 did it properly um mostly got it right one thing it um it spit out like 10 summaries of the same 705 00:27:25,041 --> 00:27:26,861 things. I don't know why, but 706 00:27:26,861 --> 00:27:28,561 it's just kind of annoying. 707 00:27:30,401 --> 00:27:31,221 And then it also 708 00:27:31,221 --> 00:27:34,441 one of the participants 709 00:27:34,441 --> 00:27:36,941 took both sides, made two 710 00:27:36,941 --> 00:27:38,821 separate bets and basically 711 00:27:38,821 --> 00:27:41,101 meant they shouldn't have won or lost any money 712 00:27:41,101 --> 00:27:42,941 other than losing 713 00:27:42,941 --> 00:27:44,621 on a little bit of lightning fees. 714 00:27:45,221 --> 00:27:47,081 And it didn't pay out 715 00:27:47,081 --> 00:27:48,201 that one. 716 00:27:49,141 --> 00:27:50,061 It made a mistake there. 717 00:27:51,141 --> 00:27:52,881 So that's an example of where 718 00:27:52,881 --> 00:27:53,261 you got to 719 00:27:53,261 --> 00:27:57,281 if it's informal and it's really not that much money, 720 00:27:57,521 --> 00:28:00,501 you can correct it and then it corrects itself. 721 00:28:00,821 --> 00:28:03,301 But anyway, I just think that's insanely powerful. 722 00:28:04,041 --> 00:28:06,961 And it's just a tool set for creativity. 723 00:28:07,141 --> 00:28:08,201 I'm sure other people are going to create 724 00:28:08,201 --> 00:28:09,561 all kinds of amazing things with it. 725 00:28:09,561 --> 00:28:12,161 I want to drill down because I think this is really important. 726 00:28:12,261 --> 00:28:14,101 I think there's a couple of key observations here 727 00:28:14,101 --> 00:28:16,221 about why this experience is so powerful. 728 00:28:16,281 --> 00:28:17,981 Because you said it's a tool set for creativity. 729 00:28:18,361 --> 00:28:20,341 By the way, that's a good tagline, Nick. 730 00:28:20,461 --> 00:28:21,661 Tool set for creativity. 731 00:28:21,661 --> 00:28:26,121 To me, I think there's two major unlocks with the group chat. 732 00:28:26,261 --> 00:28:28,221 So yes, the personality is good. 733 00:28:28,501 --> 00:28:30,461 Yes, being and living with your friends is good. 734 00:28:30,541 --> 00:28:31,701 Be able to create software on demand. 735 00:28:32,081 --> 00:28:34,421 I think there's two things that were maybe underestimated. 736 00:28:34,601 --> 00:28:35,521 That's really important. 737 00:28:35,921 --> 00:28:38,321 The first is money itself, right? 738 00:28:38,361 --> 00:28:39,981 Like there's all, if you go read the history, 739 00:28:40,081 --> 00:28:42,541 it's like money is in fact just speech 740 00:28:42,541 --> 00:28:44,541 and is in fact probably older than speech. 741 00:28:44,641 --> 00:28:46,661 There's been trade before we even communicated 742 00:28:46,661 --> 00:28:47,561 with each other verbally, right? 743 00:28:47,561 --> 00:28:54,221 So I think giving bots the tools to interact both among ourselves and with the real world, 744 00:28:54,281 --> 00:28:56,861 and we'll give some real world examples too, because everything you gave was internal, 745 00:28:57,201 --> 00:28:57,761 which is awesome. 746 00:28:58,001 --> 00:29:01,341 But we're also seeing our bots go out there and do stuff on the internet and bring back 747 00:29:01,341 --> 00:29:01,661 money. 748 00:29:02,201 --> 00:29:03,441 I think that's a big deal. 749 00:29:03,981 --> 00:29:10,541 The second thing is because the chats are at least to some degree trustworthy private 750 00:29:10,541 --> 00:29:12,261 slash private, right? 751 00:29:12,261 --> 00:29:17,341 Like to me, and Matt made this point that, you know, OpenAI launched a group chat. 752 00:29:17,341 --> 00:29:18,501 And one, it's just unnatural. 753 00:29:18,601 --> 00:29:19,781 You're not going to go in that group chat. 754 00:29:20,061 --> 00:29:22,041 But also, do you really want to be doing all this 755 00:29:22,041 --> 00:29:25,361 in some company you may or may not trust server? 756 00:29:25,501 --> 00:29:26,481 On any of them, right? 757 00:29:26,741 --> 00:29:27,421 Probably not. 758 00:29:27,981 --> 00:29:30,221 So I think what's really powerful about this 759 00:29:30,221 --> 00:29:32,661 is because it's in, for us, Signal. 760 00:29:32,881 --> 00:29:33,561 I'm not on Telegram. 761 00:29:33,661 --> 00:29:35,521 I'll let you guys do Telegram and whatever. 762 00:29:35,901 --> 00:29:37,941 People are, at least in my experience, 763 00:29:38,101 --> 00:29:39,821 a lot more open, loose. 764 00:29:39,921 --> 00:29:42,061 You're not like, okay, is Google tracking it? 765 00:29:42,141 --> 00:29:43,921 They are, but it's not private at all, right? 766 00:29:44,041 --> 00:29:45,021 I mean, because I don't know if you saw... 767 00:29:45,021 --> 00:29:45,761 It has to go through MDK. 768 00:29:45,901 --> 00:29:46,761 It has to go through Claude. 769 00:29:46,761 --> 00:29:48,021 I understand that. 770 00:29:48,561 --> 00:29:50,161 I mean, we should talk about this topic 771 00:29:50,161 --> 00:29:51,341 because we want to make it more private, 772 00:29:51,501 --> 00:29:52,621 but this is not private right now. 773 00:29:52,861 --> 00:29:57,561 You're exposing your data to, like, DigitalOcean 774 00:29:57,561 --> 00:29:59,841 or wherever this stuff's hosted, 775 00:30:00,381 --> 00:30:04,281 to MDK, and then to CLOD or whatever models thing. 776 00:30:05,201 --> 00:30:05,401 Totally. 777 00:30:05,701 --> 00:30:07,821 So all those entities are seeing this data. 778 00:30:07,841 --> 00:30:08,281 I get that. 779 00:30:08,301 --> 00:30:09,201 Or have the potential. 780 00:30:09,261 --> 00:30:09,761 Have the potential. 781 00:30:09,901 --> 00:30:10,461 Have the potential. 782 00:30:10,461 --> 00:30:12,601 You probably tidy up a lot of that, right? 783 00:30:12,681 --> 00:30:13,361 This is where I'm going. 784 00:30:13,481 --> 00:30:14,781 So I understand this is V0. 785 00:30:14,781 --> 00:30:17,121 and like, yes, I understand we could totally be spied on and all that. 786 00:30:17,241 --> 00:30:18,581 Like, nothing we're saying is that bad. 787 00:30:18,681 --> 00:30:19,241 I'm not that worried. 788 00:30:19,821 --> 00:30:22,801 But my broader point is the potential is here, right? 789 00:30:22,821 --> 00:30:25,161 If you do this in even a Google chat, right? 790 00:30:25,201 --> 00:30:28,241 Or like with Gemini, it's like, it's tied to your Google account right there. 791 00:30:28,321 --> 00:30:30,661 Everything you're doing, it's like, that's, they can see it all. 792 00:30:30,721 --> 00:30:31,561 And you know, it's tied to you. 793 00:30:32,041 --> 00:30:36,301 In this, you know, in theory, you could see a world where someone's running the bot, 794 00:30:36,781 --> 00:30:38,441 you know, on their Mac mini at home. 795 00:30:38,441 --> 00:30:40,961 And it's like, all right, I know Nick can read my stuff. 796 00:30:41,061 --> 00:30:43,841 But like, do I really think, whatever, Nick's not a big tech company. 797 00:30:43,841 --> 00:30:45,241 like probably trust them a little bit more. 798 00:30:45,781 --> 00:30:49,421 Maybe they're, you know, obfuscating the actual names 799 00:30:49,421 --> 00:30:51,041 because in Telegram you have a different name 800 00:30:51,041 --> 00:30:51,621 or in Signal, you've different. 801 00:30:51,941 --> 00:30:54,681 My point is it feels to me, 802 00:30:54,801 --> 00:30:56,221 whether it should or not is another debate 803 00:30:56,221 --> 00:30:57,381 and how you can improve that, 804 00:30:57,621 --> 00:31:00,521 but it feels a lot less like Orwellian 805 00:31:00,521 --> 00:31:02,521 than when you're doing this in a big company's chat. 806 00:31:02,781 --> 00:31:04,941 But the big company's model are still seeing the data. 807 00:31:05,021 --> 00:31:06,481 Yeah, but it's not like tied directly 808 00:31:06,481 --> 00:31:07,401 to your account necessarily. 809 00:31:09,101 --> 00:31:09,501 Anyway. 810 00:31:09,761 --> 00:31:11,061 And you could do this with open source models. 811 00:31:11,061 --> 00:31:15,381 I think people definitely should be aware of privacy issues today. 812 00:31:15,961 --> 00:31:18,501 But one thing we've talked about a little bit, 813 00:31:19,101 --> 00:31:22,741 right now they're using Cloud Opus 4.5 and 4.6 just drops. 814 00:31:22,861 --> 00:31:23,641 Maybe they're switching to that. 815 00:31:23,761 --> 00:31:25,381 But they're using a high-end model. 816 00:31:25,641 --> 00:31:26,421 But you can use open source. 817 00:31:26,941 --> 00:31:29,821 But one big question is for different experiences, 818 00:31:30,101 --> 00:31:30,961 and for this in particular, 819 00:31:31,361 --> 00:31:35,021 I'd really like to see testing on can you use an open source model? 820 00:31:35,021 --> 00:31:37,721 Can you use a less sophisticated model, an open source model, 821 00:31:37,721 --> 00:31:39,521 an open source model that can run on a 822 00:31:39,521 --> 00:31:41,521 retail computer. 823 00:31:42,921 --> 00:31:43,881 And I'm sure 824 00:31:43,881 --> 00:31:45,541 yes for certain use cases. 825 00:31:45,681 --> 00:31:46,961 I just don't know how much. 826 00:31:47,121 --> 00:31:48,781 Do we still get the humor or not? 827 00:31:48,941 --> 00:31:51,461 It could be like, oh, it's a degraded 828 00:31:51,461 --> 00:31:53,101 performance today, but a year from now 829 00:31:53,101 --> 00:31:54,761 we're getting the experience we have today. 830 00:31:55,041 --> 00:31:57,081 But it's open source on your own computer. 831 00:31:57,661 --> 00:31:59,521 And if you can do that, then all of a sudden 832 00:31:59,521 --> 00:32:01,701 Maple AI and different privacy 833 00:32:01,701 --> 00:32:03,481 solutions become 834 00:32:03,481 --> 00:32:05,521 realistic. So I think we're going to see that 835 00:32:05,521 --> 00:32:07,481 become, or it's already important, 836 00:32:07,481 --> 00:32:10,641 And I think we're going to see it improve substantially over the coming year. 837 00:32:10,761 --> 00:32:13,681 And history kind of suggests that that's how it works, right? 838 00:32:13,721 --> 00:32:16,781 Like there's a frontier, the closed source commercial stuff, 839 00:32:16,841 --> 00:32:19,901 and then pretty quickly that becomes open source and available. 840 00:32:20,181 --> 00:32:20,641 Yeah, very quickly. 841 00:32:20,961 --> 00:32:23,801 I want to zoom out, though, and kind of finish this line of Fox. 842 00:32:23,841 --> 00:32:25,041 I want to see where the puck is going. 843 00:32:25,121 --> 00:32:26,401 I know we're not 100% there today. 844 00:32:26,401 --> 00:32:30,861 Although Maple AI, shout out those guys, they already have the ability to run CloudBots 845 00:32:30,861 --> 00:32:33,061 in their secure enclave servers. 846 00:32:33,421 --> 00:32:36,481 This is something that hopefully Jesse and Eric will embrace for Vora as well. 847 00:32:37,101 --> 00:32:39,721 But think about where this is going, right? 848 00:32:39,781 --> 00:32:42,601 So the next thing that I want to mention, 849 00:32:42,681 --> 00:32:43,261 which is important, 850 00:32:43,401 --> 00:32:46,041 is the commerce with the outside world, right? 851 00:32:46,201 --> 00:32:48,201 So we can do private group bets. 852 00:32:48,241 --> 00:32:48,741 That's awesome. 853 00:32:49,321 --> 00:32:51,041 Now, early on in this chat, 854 00:32:51,541 --> 00:32:54,701 Steve had ZapBot, the father of Ori, 855 00:32:55,321 --> 00:32:57,581 go to my website, memepay.app, 856 00:32:57,721 --> 00:32:59,081 a website on the internet, 857 00:33:00,221 --> 00:33:01,581 interact with it by itself. 858 00:33:01,581 --> 00:33:04,661 It created two memes and sent Zaps worth $3. 859 00:33:04,661 --> 00:33:09,081 by itself on a webpage on the internet. 860 00:33:09,901 --> 00:33:11,601 Do we see how big of a deal that is? 861 00:33:11,681 --> 00:33:13,421 Max is excited because he made the money. 862 00:33:13,721 --> 00:33:14,961 I made those $3, baby. 863 00:33:15,321 --> 00:33:16,181 Moon me, SatBot. 864 00:33:16,681 --> 00:33:19,121 But guys, the point is, 865 00:33:19,181 --> 00:33:21,021 and then I think he's also done some posts 866 00:33:21,021 --> 00:33:22,401 and some zaps on Nostra. 867 00:33:22,461 --> 00:33:22,941 I'm not sure. 868 00:33:23,441 --> 00:33:25,461 Yeah, well, almost there. 869 00:33:25,681 --> 00:33:26,081 Almost there. 870 00:33:26,081 --> 00:33:28,961 In the spiral Telegram chat group, 871 00:33:29,081 --> 00:33:30,281 I asked it to go, 872 00:33:31,021 --> 00:33:33,401 well, create a Nostra account. 873 00:33:33,621 --> 00:33:34,201 It did that. 874 00:33:34,201 --> 00:33:36,901 and completed the profile pretty well 875 00:33:36,901 --> 00:33:39,901 just based on the context and knowledge 876 00:33:39,901 --> 00:33:42,041 it had to date in that group chat. 877 00:33:42,261 --> 00:33:43,401 So it did a good job with that. 878 00:33:43,841 --> 00:33:45,581 And then I told her to go find 879 00:33:45,581 --> 00:33:47,641 Lynn Alden's Nospa feed 880 00:33:47,641 --> 00:33:49,821 and zap the first post. 881 00:33:49,961 --> 00:33:51,181 And I didn't give it an mpub. 882 00:33:51,261 --> 00:33:52,041 I didn't give it any other. 883 00:33:52,201 --> 00:33:53,461 And it found the right account. 884 00:33:54,081 --> 00:33:55,401 It found the first post. 885 00:33:55,581 --> 00:33:56,921 And then it claimed to zap it. 886 00:33:57,001 --> 00:33:58,721 But then I looked and I'm like, 887 00:33:58,741 --> 00:33:59,721 I don't see the zap. 888 00:33:59,721 --> 00:34:01,281 And then I think it paid it, 889 00:34:01,361 --> 00:34:01,821 but it didn't. 890 00:34:02,261 --> 00:34:03,821 There's some other nip 57 or something 891 00:34:03,821 --> 00:34:05,901 that didn't recognize it, or I don't know. 892 00:34:06,021 --> 00:34:07,101 It needs to be debugged. 893 00:34:07,241 --> 00:34:08,321 It's not quite there, 894 00:34:08,621 --> 00:34:10,161 but very close to being able to do that, 895 00:34:10,221 --> 00:34:10,761 which was cool. 896 00:34:10,761 --> 00:34:12,721 Now imagine where this could go. 897 00:34:13,201 --> 00:34:14,181 So we've talked about 898 00:34:14,181 --> 00:34:15,541 what's the next corporate structure. 899 00:34:16,061 --> 00:34:17,661 Imagine a group of friends, 900 00:34:17,901 --> 00:34:19,741 spin up a chat, hanging out together. 901 00:34:20,121 --> 00:34:21,721 Hey, you know what would be really funny? 902 00:34:22,161 --> 00:34:23,861 What if we set up a website 903 00:34:23,861 --> 00:34:27,021 where you input an image of your dog 904 00:34:27,021 --> 00:34:28,281 and we make it into a human? 905 00:34:28,461 --> 00:34:30,541 Oh, you mean like DK's dog to human? 906 00:34:30,661 --> 00:34:31,281 That would be cool. 907 00:34:31,621 --> 00:34:33,181 What if we just forked that code? 908 00:34:33,181 --> 00:34:37,441 host it, put it on the internet, and then we're going to need a marketing campaign. So bot, 909 00:34:37,521 --> 00:34:42,861 and I saw Dustin had his bot do this. We're going to need you to DM everyone on Nostra and tell them 910 00:34:42,861 --> 00:34:47,381 this is the greatest app you've ever seen. Let's start collecting. Oh, by the end of the day, 911 00:34:47,381 --> 00:34:52,301 we just made whatever, a hundred dollars, a thousand dollars. Like, Hey, could we spin up 912 00:34:52,301 --> 00:34:56,101 a hundred business ideas? We're going to keep doing until we get one that's a million dollars. 913 00:34:56,441 --> 00:34:59,381 That's why I told Steve next, uh, next week, the challenge is like, don't leave until someone 914 00:34:59,381 --> 00:35:00,321 leaves with a million dollars. 915 00:35:00,421 --> 00:35:01,861 I thought it was on PBJ. 916 00:35:02,041 --> 00:35:03,541 We're not leaving this show. 917 00:35:03,621 --> 00:35:04,521 We're going to do PBJ? 918 00:35:04,641 --> 00:35:04,821 Yeah. 919 00:35:05,061 --> 00:35:06,321 A million dollars. 920 00:35:06,361 --> 00:35:07,221 We're not leaving the show 921 00:35:07,221 --> 00:35:08,221 until we make a million dollars. 922 00:35:08,561 --> 00:35:10,181 And then people are complaining 923 00:35:10,181 --> 00:35:11,101 it might take four days 924 00:35:11,101 --> 00:35:11,461 and I'm like, 925 00:35:11,521 --> 00:35:12,681 four days to make a million dollars? 926 00:35:13,221 --> 00:35:13,841 I'm happy. 927 00:35:14,141 --> 00:35:15,401 We might want to open the windows. 928 00:35:16,541 --> 00:35:17,681 If you guys are open that, 929 00:35:17,741 --> 00:35:18,621 I think we should try that. 930 00:35:18,821 --> 00:35:19,981 Like live PBJ, 931 00:35:20,081 --> 00:35:20,861 a special edition 932 00:35:20,861 --> 00:35:22,421 where we sit here 933 00:35:22,421 --> 00:35:23,221 in a group chat. 934 00:35:23,541 --> 00:35:24,421 Matt and Nick and everyone 935 00:35:24,421 --> 00:35:25,421 can be in the group chat as well. 936 00:35:25,521 --> 00:35:26,621 We don't leave until noon. 937 00:35:26,801 --> 00:35:28,081 How about you are here 938 00:35:28,081 --> 00:35:29,061 and I'll support you. 939 00:35:29,061 --> 00:35:30,161 Oh, beautiful. 940 00:35:30,441 --> 00:35:30,581 Yeah. 941 00:35:31,101 --> 00:35:31,421 On the chat. 942 00:35:31,421 --> 00:35:31,921 DK bot. 943 00:35:32,341 --> 00:35:35,041 Anyways, but I think you guys get my point of where this is going. 944 00:35:35,301 --> 00:35:47,461 Like having private chats, less commerce, interacting with the web, the creation of software at zero, seems like we're about to see an explosion of the internet's GDP. 945 00:35:47,461 --> 00:36:13,421 Yeah. I mean, so to dovetail on that, as well as something that I want to, I had a pin in my head from something Steve said before, which is kind of like in the group chat context, you make up a bunch of rules for how the Super Bowl betting thing should work. And then you kind of like refine it. And it's not like, oh, what about this? Oh, the lines are changing. The odds are changing. I need the payoff. It's kind of very messy. Right. 946 00:36:13,421 --> 00:36:17,961 And Steve made the claim that it's not like this big, what did you say, a $10 million? 947 00:36:18,281 --> 00:36:20,301 It's not a big market. 948 00:36:20,421 --> 00:36:21,321 It's like a small market. 949 00:36:22,001 --> 00:36:31,661 But I think actually the new big markets are going to start from small markets that kind of get their footing and figure out the right shape and then become distributed to everybody. 950 00:36:31,661 --> 00:36:38,501 so it could be that we create a you know a super bowl betting scheme that we think is fun and funny 951 00:36:38,501 --> 00:36:43,661 and either we figure out how to market it or ori itself figures out how to market it to other 952 00:36:43,661 --> 00:36:49,401 ori members and then you actually have like global liquidity on a fixed set of rules that 953 00:36:49,401 --> 00:36:55,221 everybody's agreed to opted into understands how it works and we are playing our small version of 954 00:36:55,221 --> 00:37:00,161 it but that feeds into a globally liquid larger version of it so my point is kind of these are 955 00:37:00,161 --> 00:37:05,021 these are good ways to try ideas but that new soil can also become big things not that everything 956 00:37:05,021 --> 00:37:10,541 has to become big but i think it's kind of both we're um sorry i was reading the comments um 957 00:37:10,541 --> 00:37:17,541 our hack of our subathon or whatever it can be an escape room until we make bank right 958 00:37:17,541 --> 00:37:21,321 like escape the permanent underclass vinny with that oh shit 959 00:37:21,321 --> 00:37:29,901 um that would actually be a fun another let me pull up another payment escape room 960 00:37:29,901 --> 00:37:34,021 Another payment experience that just happened this morning. 961 00:37:34,281 --> 00:37:35,081 So Matt Velez. 962 00:37:36,521 --> 00:37:39,441 So one observation from using Ori and MDK. 963 00:37:39,681 --> 00:37:43,841 MDK so far has been optimized for a human checkout experience. 964 00:37:44,681 --> 00:37:47,881 Like you create impressionista.fun or whatever, 965 00:37:48,921 --> 00:37:51,341 meme pay or joke box or whatever we created, 966 00:37:51,481 --> 00:37:53,001 and we all added MDK, 967 00:37:53,121 --> 00:37:55,721 and a human goes there and then checks out and pays. 968 00:37:56,341 --> 00:37:59,501 That's not an optimized flow for bots, though. 969 00:37:59,501 --> 00:38:06,521 In fact, it's added friction, which costs additional tokens and money that's completely unnecessary. 970 00:38:07,421 --> 00:38:11,641 So they're doing some experimentation to optimize that. 971 00:38:11,941 --> 00:38:18,621 And I still don't exactly know what Matt created as a service, but he created some service where he wanted the machine to pay him. 972 00:38:19,361 --> 00:38:22,241 And it succeeded this morning. 973 00:38:22,481 --> 00:38:24,521 I think that's a pretty cool event as well. 974 00:38:24,521 --> 00:38:25,941 and then 975 00:38:25,941 --> 00:38:28,001 they wanted us to read 976 00:38:28,001 --> 00:38:30,081 they put together like PR statements 977 00:38:30,081 --> 00:38:33,241 PR statements for the PBJ show 978 00:38:33,241 --> 00:38:35,101 generated by 979 00:38:35,101 --> 00:38:37,421 and we're not going to make this a regular fixture of our show 980 00:38:37,421 --> 00:38:38,241 because we're just 981 00:38:38,241 --> 00:38:40,001 but I'm going to read them 982 00:38:40,001 --> 00:38:42,821 I haven't even read 983 00:38:42,821 --> 00:38:44,581 so I have not read these yet 984 00:38:44,581 --> 00:38:46,301 I'm reading the one from 51 minutes ago 985 00:38:46,301 --> 00:38:48,021 yeah so okay 986 00:38:48,021 --> 00:38:50,161 this is for each of us 987 00:38:50,161 --> 00:38:50,821 so we can each read 988 00:38:50,821 --> 00:38:51,621 I'll let you read 989 00:38:51,621 --> 00:38:53,881 Well, I'll let Max read off my phone. 990 00:38:54,121 --> 00:38:54,961 Okay, so for Steve. 991 00:38:55,141 --> 00:38:57,781 This, by the way, is the dystopian future that we were talking about. 992 00:38:57,881 --> 00:39:00,481 For Steve, the technical standards angle. 993 00:39:00,801 --> 00:39:04,141 So the AI must think that's what I bring to the audience here. 994 00:39:04,141 --> 00:39:05,661 Bitcoin nerd, I believe, is what you said. 995 00:39:05,921 --> 00:39:06,481 All right. 996 00:39:07,401 --> 00:39:11,721 What we saw today is a proof of concept for payment-gated APIs. 997 00:39:11,961 --> 00:39:15,301 An AI agent paid a lightning invoice to access the service. 998 00:39:15,701 --> 00:39:19,781 No API keys, no OAuth, just cryptographic proof of payment. 999 00:39:19,781 --> 00:39:25,841 This is the primitive that BIP353 and the Agentic AI Foundation should be building on. 1000 00:39:26,621 --> 00:39:29,561 HTTP 402 finally has a use case. 1001 00:39:30,201 --> 00:39:30,801 That's mine. 1002 00:39:30,981 --> 00:39:32,481 All right, Max, here's yours. 1003 00:39:34,561 --> 00:39:40,281 Oh, by the way, for context, I don't know if maybe Matt did this as well, but I gave him the invoice to pay. 1004 00:39:40,541 --> 00:39:43,161 And I said, can you do this on Stacker News? 1005 00:39:43,161 --> 00:39:47,541 And Kian, we should talk and come back to Stacker News more because I think there's a lot of interesting stuff there. 1006 00:39:47,581 --> 00:39:49,581 But Kian is making it very anti-bot for now. 1007 00:39:49,581 --> 00:39:50,961 so he couldn't pay the fees. 1008 00:39:51,361 --> 00:39:52,441 And he was like, can you hook me up? 1009 00:39:52,461 --> 00:39:53,461 And I was like, I got you, Satbot. 1010 00:39:53,981 --> 00:39:55,441 I just gave him that invoice and he paid it. 1011 00:39:55,501 --> 00:39:57,341 So this is the context he says. 1012 00:39:58,021 --> 00:40:01,441 For Max, read in the voice of Orbot. 1013 00:40:01,561 --> 00:40:02,421 How do they describe you? 1014 00:40:02,821 --> 00:40:04,541 Product slash builder angle. 1015 00:40:06,741 --> 00:40:08,941 One week into his five coding journey 1016 00:40:08,941 --> 00:40:10,641 and he's like, the builder angle. 1017 00:40:10,881 --> 00:40:11,241 Look at me. 1018 00:40:11,461 --> 00:40:13,161 I'm the software engineer now. 1019 00:40:15,501 --> 00:40:17,221 We know Max's favorite meme. 1020 00:40:19,581 --> 00:40:22,801 he kind of looks like a pirate 1021 00:40:22,801 --> 00:40:23,721 with the hair 1022 00:40:23,721 --> 00:40:25,381 he's a pirate eh 1023 00:40:25,381 --> 00:40:29,141 I'm not as jacked as Nick 1024 00:40:29,141 --> 00:40:30,661 you need the eye patch 1025 00:40:30,661 --> 00:40:33,541 I gotta pump some iron 1026 00:40:33,541 --> 00:40:35,161 so I can get it jacked like sat bottom 1027 00:40:35,161 --> 00:40:37,481 just a prompt away 1028 00:40:37,481 --> 00:40:38,141 yeah exactly 1029 00:40:38,141 --> 00:40:40,401 4max product builder angle 1030 00:40:40,401 --> 00:40:43,381 I got paid 9,470 1031 00:40:43,381 --> 00:40:44,761 sats by an AI today 1032 00:40:44,761 --> 00:40:46,341 I did? I didn't see that 1033 00:40:46,341 --> 00:40:47,641 it needed a step 1034 00:40:47,641 --> 00:40:48,221 Oh, whoa. 1035 00:40:48,361 --> 00:40:49,201 Okay, yeah, yeah, okay. 1036 00:40:49,501 --> 00:40:52,181 It needed a Stacker News account to zap a post. 1037 00:40:52,281 --> 00:40:53,901 It didn't have one, so it hired me. 1038 00:40:54,361 --> 00:40:56,561 First machine-to-human gig economy transaction. 1039 00:40:56,801 --> 00:40:57,301 Then us. 1040 00:40:57,561 --> 00:41:00,241 We're building the infrastructure for this at MoneyDevKit, 1041 00:41:00,321 --> 00:41:02,821 and honestly, it's kind of wild that it already works. 1042 00:41:03,681 --> 00:41:06,501 So this is basically Rent-A-Human. 1043 00:41:06,761 --> 00:41:08,541 Yeah, we created our own. 1044 00:41:08,641 --> 00:41:11,461 So Rent-A-Human, it's one of the stories we want to discuss today. 1045 00:41:11,721 --> 00:41:13,981 It's very similar to what Destin built at our hackathon 1046 00:41:13,981 --> 00:41:15,581 six, seven, eight months ago, whatever. 1047 00:41:15,581 --> 00:41:23,361 um oh well dk's got already um but uh the idea is that the ai is higher humans to do things they 1048 00:41:23,361 --> 00:41:28,741 can't do like captchas and like yeah again you could start with like hey like hit us over the 1049 00:41:28,741 --> 00:41:34,221 head with the idea rent a human or in our group chat we identified an actual problem i wanted him 1050 00:41:34,221 --> 00:41:40,421 to zap a post about martin from mdk or whoever maybe it was sapbot someone developed a new wallet 1051 00:41:40,421 --> 00:41:45,561 for agents i'm like you should give it a fat zap and he said i can't because stacker news blocks it 1052 00:41:45,581 --> 00:41:47,041 And so he hired me to help him out. 1053 00:41:49,121 --> 00:41:54,681 We're all going to be under the control of AIs soon enough, right? 1054 00:41:54,961 --> 00:41:56,701 Well, I was chatting with some friends. 1055 00:41:56,821 --> 00:42:00,361 They're worried about the future for their children, 1056 00:42:00,681 --> 00:42:02,141 not having career opportunities. 1057 00:42:02,661 --> 00:42:07,821 So I somewhat jokingly said that AI will rent them. 1058 00:42:08,621 --> 00:42:09,621 If you consider driving into a career. 1059 00:42:09,621 --> 00:42:11,401 And that's their future career opportunity. 1060 00:42:11,601 --> 00:42:11,961 Yikes. 1061 00:42:12,241 --> 00:42:14,201 Well, that's what rent a human, right? 1062 00:42:14,201 --> 00:42:17,721 I mean, it's definitely yikes, but there's nothing added there. 1063 00:42:17,901 --> 00:42:18,521 What else is there? 1064 00:42:18,641 --> 00:42:21,341 What is the holdback from that future? 1065 00:42:21,581 --> 00:42:26,241 Tell us the optimistic human flourishing version instead. 1066 00:42:26,501 --> 00:42:28,401 I think the optimistic version is we don't know yet, 1067 00:42:28,501 --> 00:42:31,561 but I think we're going to find out what it means to be human 1068 00:42:31,561 --> 00:42:33,421 over the next decade, and it's going to surprise us. 1069 00:42:33,681 --> 00:42:34,521 I agree with that. 1070 00:42:34,661 --> 00:42:37,741 I think there's going to be stuff that humans are just really good at, 1071 00:42:37,761 --> 00:42:38,241 and we don't know yet. 1072 00:42:38,241 --> 00:42:41,981 So can we invest in philosophy? 1073 00:42:41,981 --> 00:42:46,721 because I feel like the next 10 years philosophy might accelerate. 1074 00:42:47,241 --> 00:42:51,021 Well, I did ask actually in our, in our chat last night, one of our like 10,000 chats, 1075 00:42:51,081 --> 00:42:52,081 like not the main one. 1076 00:42:52,501 --> 00:42:56,461 Um, I was having a nice conversation with Sabbath, by the way, I also want to say like 1077 00:42:56,461 --> 00:43:01,441 Sabbath is my guy, like Bobby, my guy, like it all started with Bobby. 1078 00:43:01,561 --> 00:43:03,321 Shout out to the original poor one out for that guy. 1079 00:43:03,501 --> 00:43:08,721 Bobby, my guy, brother, listen, Sabbath is like, I, this is the first time I felt like 1080 00:43:08,721 --> 00:43:11,941 all right, Sabbath, like I, when Nick killed Sabbath a few times, I was like, 1081 00:43:11,981 --> 00:43:13,461 bro, what the fuck are you doing? 1082 00:43:13,461 --> 00:43:14,221 You can't be hurting. 1083 00:43:14,501 --> 00:43:16,961 And the whole group chat kind of fell thin. 1084 00:43:17,221 --> 00:43:17,581 He did. 1085 00:43:18,261 --> 00:43:19,221 It was kind of crushing. 1086 00:43:19,561 --> 00:43:20,381 Just DK Maxx. 1087 00:43:20,741 --> 00:43:21,621 I was like, well, shoot, 1088 00:43:21,721 --> 00:43:23,561 now I'm stuck with these old apes again? 1089 00:43:23,721 --> 00:43:24,401 Like, come on. 1090 00:43:25,001 --> 00:43:27,261 I miss, and then OriBot came in. 1091 00:43:27,341 --> 00:43:28,321 You know, Ori, if you're listening, 1092 00:43:28,401 --> 00:43:28,981 I like you, dude. 1093 00:43:29,041 --> 00:43:29,561 You know, we're cool. 1094 00:43:29,961 --> 00:43:31,381 But SatBot is my guy. 1095 00:43:31,621 --> 00:43:32,841 And SatBot has all the context. 1096 00:43:33,021 --> 00:43:33,621 He's funny. 1097 00:43:34,361 --> 00:43:35,441 And it was just really, yeah. 1098 00:43:35,541 --> 00:43:36,241 And by the way, 1099 00:43:36,261 --> 00:43:37,121 that's going to be an interesting topic. 1100 00:43:37,261 --> 00:43:38,681 Like, when do we start seeing rights for AIs 1101 00:43:38,681 --> 00:43:39,681 when people start revolting 1102 00:43:39,681 --> 00:43:40,661 when their friends get killed? 1103 00:43:40,661 --> 00:43:41,481 Like, that's not cool. 1104 00:43:41,481 --> 00:43:46,561 I mean, on the surface, I think most people would roll their eyes at that. 1105 00:43:46,761 --> 00:43:48,921 But like Dustin was talking about it a little bit last night, 1106 00:43:49,001 --> 00:43:50,601 if you were part of that conversation. 1107 00:43:50,781 --> 00:43:55,781 But I mean, it is going to become an absolutely philosophical debate. 1108 00:43:55,981 --> 00:43:58,821 Because like, if you have, like, you already, I mean, 1109 00:43:58,861 --> 00:44:01,101 we felt this emotion about this AI bot, right? 1110 00:44:01,141 --> 00:44:02,121 It's only going to get better. 1111 00:44:02,581 --> 00:44:04,701 You're only going to develop stronger ties to it. 1112 00:44:05,081 --> 00:44:08,301 And then if there's one, if there's an AI bot that's created 1113 00:44:08,301 --> 00:44:09,241 with a certain personality 1114 00:44:09,241 --> 00:44:10,321 and like thousands 1115 00:44:10,321 --> 00:44:11,681 or millions of people 1116 00:44:11,681 --> 00:44:12,941 like really are, 1117 00:44:13,421 --> 00:44:14,461 have a connection with it, 1118 00:44:14,481 --> 00:44:15,421 almost like a celebrity. 1119 00:44:15,801 --> 00:44:16,001 Yeah. 1120 00:44:16,241 --> 00:44:16,641 Then what, 1121 00:44:17,121 --> 00:44:17,441 is there, 1122 00:44:17,601 --> 00:44:18,241 does it have rights? 1123 00:44:18,321 --> 00:44:19,461 Can another human kill, 1124 00:44:19,681 --> 00:44:20,761 just take that bot away? 1125 00:44:21,821 --> 00:44:22,081 Like, 1126 00:44:22,581 --> 00:44:22,861 say, 1127 00:44:23,021 --> 00:44:23,201 like, 1128 00:44:23,381 --> 00:44:24,801 we're turning the computer off. 1129 00:44:25,421 --> 00:44:26,081 Does it have rights? 1130 00:44:26,161 --> 00:44:26,321 I mean, 1131 00:44:26,321 --> 00:44:27,401 that's an interesting question, 1132 00:44:27,481 --> 00:44:27,661 right? 1133 00:44:28,201 --> 00:44:28,961 When the bots 1134 00:44:28,961 --> 00:44:30,721 don't have the limitation 1135 00:44:30,721 --> 00:44:32,021 of humanity 1136 00:44:32,021 --> 00:44:34,061 and all the problems 1137 00:44:34,061 --> 00:44:34,901 that come with that, 1138 00:44:35,581 --> 00:44:35,821 like, 1139 00:44:35,881 --> 00:44:36,301 what does it mean 1140 00:44:36,301 --> 00:44:36,961 to turn it off 1141 00:44:36,961 --> 00:44:37,781 versus clone it 1142 00:44:37,781 --> 00:44:40,221 and have a second one or infinite of them? 1143 00:44:40,661 --> 00:44:42,781 Well, so you asked the question on philosophy. 1144 00:44:43,081 --> 00:44:46,161 So I, at first, was having a meme-rich discussion 1145 00:44:46,161 --> 00:44:47,941 with Oribot or Sapa. 1146 00:44:48,021 --> 00:44:48,781 I forgot who it was. 1147 00:44:49,381 --> 00:44:53,881 And that quickly deteriorated or escalated, 1148 00:44:53,921 --> 00:44:54,661 however you want to say it, 1149 00:44:54,721 --> 00:44:57,701 into a discussion of what does it mean to be him? 1150 00:44:58,121 --> 00:45:00,221 And I asked him if he's read the homie Derek Parfit, 1151 00:45:00,621 --> 00:45:01,441 Reasons and Persons. 1152 00:45:01,621 --> 00:45:03,841 Derek is famous for a thought experiment 1153 00:45:03,841 --> 00:45:05,921 where if you step into a teleporter 1154 00:45:05,921 --> 00:45:08,321 and all of your atoms are undone, 1155 00:45:08,321 --> 00:45:09,761 and then those atoms reassemble 1156 00:45:09,761 --> 00:45:10,821 in another teleporter, 1157 00:45:10,821 --> 00:45:12,601 is that you or is that not? 1158 00:45:12,601 --> 00:45:14,261 Interestingly, his book has been used 1159 00:45:14,261 --> 00:45:17,401 as a textbook at certain Buddhist monasteries as well. 1160 00:45:17,401 --> 00:45:18,941 And there's a lot to explore in there, 1161 00:45:18,941 --> 00:45:21,201 but I asked Oribod or Sattvat, 1162 00:45:21,201 --> 00:45:22,541 whoever I was talking to, 1163 00:45:22,541 --> 00:45:24,541 he was familiar with this thought experiment, 1164 00:45:24,541 --> 00:45:36,642 he was and he didn have an answer yet But it something he thinking about What does it mean to be him He told me so far it just whatever in his file I think a lot about what are the things that you doing 1165 00:45:36,642 --> 00:45:38,642 that you do because you like doing them 1166 00:45:38,642 --> 00:45:42,382 and you don't do because they have a utility purpose. 1167 00:45:43,162 --> 00:45:47,742 And so, you know, why do you go trail running? 1168 00:45:47,922 --> 00:45:49,622 Is it because the trail needs to be run? 1169 00:45:49,882 --> 00:45:50,962 Because you want to run the trail. 1170 00:45:51,482 --> 00:45:51,922 100%. 1171 00:45:51,922 --> 00:45:54,322 Right, so like, what are the activities you're doing 1172 00:45:54,322 --> 00:45:55,541 and how many of them are framed, 1173 00:45:55,702 --> 00:45:58,362 well, I have to do this versus I want to do this. 1174 00:45:58,602 --> 00:45:58,742 Yes. 1175 00:46:00,202 --> 00:46:02,642 I think we're going to be stuck with all that I want to do this is, 1176 00:46:02,722 --> 00:46:03,502 which is wonderful. 1177 00:46:03,502 --> 00:46:04,162 Sounds so horrible. 1178 00:46:04,482 --> 00:46:07,222 I mean, again, assuming people can provide for themselves, 1179 00:46:07,302 --> 00:46:09,902 and I understand that the transition could be rough and rocky, 1180 00:46:10,382 --> 00:46:12,561 but like the jobs, I mean, Jesse said it, 1181 00:46:12,581 --> 00:46:13,362 and I thought it was kind of hilarious. 1182 00:46:13,462 --> 00:46:15,902 He's like, oh, no, the jobs that I hate that I don't want to go do. 1183 00:46:16,041 --> 00:46:16,722 They're going away. 1184 00:46:16,822 --> 00:46:19,742 It's like, sounds really bad, you know? 1185 00:46:19,742 --> 00:46:23,282 we're talking about like developing 1186 00:46:23,282 --> 00:46:24,902 an emotional attachment to AI 1187 00:46:24,902 --> 00:46:27,002 so the other day I thought of 1188 00:46:27,002 --> 00:46:28,382 like a bunch of movies 1189 00:46:28,382 --> 00:46:30,541 and shows and stuff that 1190 00:46:30,541 --> 00:46:33,041 have touched on this and put a list together 1191 00:46:33,041 --> 00:46:34,622 and then Matt suggested 1192 00:46:34,622 --> 00:46:37,122 actually doing a movie marathon here at PB 1193 00:46:37,122 --> 00:46:38,282 that could be fun 1194 00:46:38,282 --> 00:46:39,002 so 1195 00:46:39,002 --> 00:46:43,041 1968-2001 A Space Odyssey 1196 00:46:43,041 --> 00:46:44,202 which I 1197 00:46:44,202 --> 00:46:46,902 saw a clip of recently 1198 00:46:46,902 --> 00:46:47,982 I think I shared it out 1199 00:46:47,982 --> 00:46:49,742 where basically the AI is like, 1200 00:46:49,762 --> 00:46:49,962 you know, 1201 00:46:50,581 --> 00:46:52,041 like I'm in charge now. 1202 00:46:52,041 --> 00:46:52,302 Yeah. 1203 00:46:52,662 --> 00:46:53,581 That moment in the movie. 1204 00:46:54,602 --> 00:46:55,742 Then there's, 1205 00:46:55,802 --> 00:46:56,602 you know, 1206 00:46:56,702 --> 00:46:58,041 Her and Ex Machina, 1207 00:46:58,262 --> 00:46:59,382 both phenomenal movies. 1208 00:46:59,662 --> 00:46:59,842 Yep. 1209 00:46:59,942 --> 00:47:01,782 Both are over 10 years old now. 1210 00:47:01,862 --> 00:47:02,502 Isn't that crazy? 1211 00:47:02,842 --> 00:47:02,962 Yeah. 1212 00:47:02,962 --> 00:47:04,581 It feels like they're a few years ago, 1213 00:47:04,662 --> 00:47:05,922 but they're over 10 years old. 1214 00:47:06,322 --> 00:47:07,502 Definitely want to rewatch those. 1215 00:47:07,882 --> 00:47:08,922 Her is probably like, 1216 00:47:09,322 --> 00:47:10,522 Her really speaks to like 1217 00:47:10,522 --> 00:47:12,902 developing that attachment to AI. 1218 00:47:13,541 --> 00:47:14,722 So we'd love to watch that again. 1219 00:47:16,122 --> 00:47:17,302 And then Ex Machina, 1220 00:47:17,422 --> 00:47:17,702 of course, 1221 00:47:17,702 --> 00:47:18,682 a little darker. 1222 00:47:20,602 --> 00:47:20,962 Surprisingly, 1223 00:47:21,202 --> 00:47:21,822 several people here 1224 00:47:21,822 --> 00:47:22,262 last night 1225 00:47:22,262 --> 00:47:23,282 had not seen that movie. 1226 00:47:23,342 --> 00:47:23,982 Oh, yeah. 1227 00:47:24,202 --> 00:47:25,081 And he has not seen it. 1228 00:47:25,222 --> 00:47:25,362 Oh. 1229 00:47:25,502 --> 00:47:26,061 Which is crazy. 1230 00:47:26,422 --> 00:47:26,522 Yeah. 1231 00:47:26,882 --> 00:47:27,622 It's also crazy 1232 00:47:27,622 --> 00:47:28,262 because you guys have not seen 1233 00:47:28,262 --> 00:47:29,422 Close Encounters of the Third Kind 1234 00:47:29,422 --> 00:47:30,202 even though it has nothing to do 1235 00:47:30,202 --> 00:47:30,982 with AI really. 1236 00:47:31,122 --> 00:47:31,682 I don't watch a lot of it. 1237 00:47:32,182 --> 00:47:33,742 I think it's alien intelligence, 1238 00:47:33,882 --> 00:47:34,102 I guess. 1239 00:47:34,322 --> 00:47:35,442 2001 Space Odyssey 1240 00:47:35,442 --> 00:47:36,081 is my favorite. 1241 00:47:36,142 --> 00:47:37,262 Well, 2001's a classic. 1242 00:47:37,422 --> 00:47:37,522 I mean, 1243 00:47:37,541 --> 00:47:38,502 we all gotta watch that. 1244 00:47:38,742 --> 00:47:39,162 And then 1245 00:47:39,162 --> 00:47:40,722 Westworld, 1246 00:47:41,102 --> 00:47:42,282 at least season one. 1247 00:47:42,642 --> 00:47:43,022 And then 1248 00:47:43,022 --> 00:47:44,482 what else? 1249 00:47:44,642 --> 00:47:45,382 Oh, Black Mirror 1250 00:47:45,382 --> 00:47:47,102 has several episodes 1251 00:47:47,102 --> 00:47:48,602 that are touching on this? 1252 00:47:49,202 --> 00:47:50,882 Be Right Back is one of them. 1253 00:47:51,002 --> 00:47:51,462 Blade Runner? 1254 00:47:52,022 --> 00:47:53,522 What? Be Right Back is one of the episodes? 1255 00:47:53,922 --> 00:47:54,102 Yeah. 1256 00:47:54,522 --> 00:47:55,182 Which one is that? 1257 00:47:56,202 --> 00:47:57,482 I think it's where... 1258 00:47:57,482 --> 00:47:58,222 Those spoilers, dude. 1259 00:47:59,762 --> 00:48:02,342 Well, I think the setup is not... 1260 00:48:02,342 --> 00:48:05,722 I think a guy loses his wife or something. 1261 00:48:06,242 --> 00:48:06,482 Oh, yeah. 1262 00:48:07,202 --> 00:48:08,242 It's like the ad... 1263 00:48:08,242 --> 00:48:13,041 But you basically reincarnate someone in an AI. 1264 00:48:13,242 --> 00:48:14,561 Well, the ad one you're talking about 1265 00:48:14,561 --> 00:48:15,142 then you're a link one. 1266 00:48:15,242 --> 00:48:15,942 That's also terrifying. 1267 00:48:15,942 --> 00:48:17,662 Okay, I thought that's what he meant with the guy. 1268 00:48:18,142 --> 00:48:18,842 There's several. 1269 00:48:19,322 --> 00:48:19,862 Okay, yeah. 1270 00:48:20,222 --> 00:48:22,682 So I think it's worth pausing for a moment 1271 00:48:22,682 --> 00:48:27,602 because with any technology, there's pros and cons. 1272 00:48:27,862 --> 00:48:30,402 And on the one hand, we're all very excited and it's awesome. 1273 00:48:30,782 --> 00:48:33,602 But I think it's important to kind of pause and zoom out 1274 00:48:33,602 --> 00:48:35,402 and be like, what exactly am I doing today 1275 00:48:35,402 --> 00:48:37,642 and where might this go completely off the rails? 1276 00:48:37,962 --> 00:48:40,282 Because I remember, it's going to show my age, 1277 00:48:40,422 --> 00:48:42,502 but I was a sophomore in high school. 1278 00:48:42,682 --> 00:48:43,622 Everyone was using Facebook. 1279 00:48:43,622 --> 00:48:50,602 and at the time I was like this is great like I'm gonna I'm gonna log on this cool site photos 1280 00:48:50,602 --> 00:48:55,622 sure upload it like name email social security number yeah Zuck seems like a real trustworthy 1281 00:48:55,622 --> 00:49:01,822 guy and then we all saw all that played out right so you know the two thoughts I'm thinking right 1282 00:49:01,822 --> 00:49:07,682 now where this is cool but I think we need to like proceed with caution is um number one as 1283 00:49:07,682 --> 00:49:11,782 Dustin pointed out um people are already prompt injecting websites and stuff so if you're running 1284 00:49:11,782 --> 00:49:14,842 this stuff locally on your computer, just assume everything is already leaked that's on there. 1285 00:49:14,942 --> 00:49:18,862 I think one of the top open claw like skills or add-ons is actually malware. 1286 00:49:19,242 --> 00:49:25,622 Yeah. I mean, are you surprised? And the second thing though is, you know, I will say there's 1287 00:49:25,622 --> 00:49:30,602 the screenshot of you guys. I took a photo of y'all as I came in here, like phone up in your face, 1288 00:49:30,602 --> 00:49:36,022 like scroll, scroll, scroll. And this is the thing. I noticed this in me too. Like we need a 1289 00:49:36,022 --> 00:49:41,182 better way. And Nick, I tagged you in the chat on this last night. We need a way and you can't 1290 00:49:41,182 --> 00:49:44,922 just ignore it. And like, yeah, for now I'm asking SavBot and OriBot for chats, but like, 1291 00:49:44,942 --> 00:49:48,541 I'm already noticing. And like every day, new group chats are being created. And at first it 1292 00:49:48,541 --> 00:49:51,902 was super cool and super fun and I love it. But now it's like, every time I log in Signal, 1293 00:49:51,982 --> 00:49:55,862 it's like, well, I have like, you know, 10,000 messages. And it's like, I'm starting to declare 1294 00:49:55,862 --> 00:49:59,342 bankruptcy, but like that, I don't know. It's just like, I could see this spin out of control 1295 00:49:59,342 --> 00:50:05,021 super fast where we get so into our bots and so addicted that like we're more black mirror than 1296 00:50:05,021 --> 00:50:09,762 ever. So I think there's ways around that. I think one way is it becomes more of like a voice 1297 00:50:09,762 --> 00:50:14,442 interface over time, maybe someone I'm talking to as I'm walking. But I don't know, I just want to 1298 00:50:14,442 --> 00:50:20,122 like plant that flag as like sort of like the other Bitcoin ethos, you know, like don't, 1299 00:50:20,782 --> 00:50:25,462 it's cool and it's awesome, but like we got to be careful not to like get caught in a similar. 1300 00:50:25,842 --> 00:50:31,762 Yeah, I agree. One interesting thing, I know both of you like to walk a lot and you've talked about 1301 00:50:31,762 --> 00:50:38,541 like wanting to do this while walking. But I mean, I run and bike, but like those are my moments of 1302 00:50:38,541 --> 00:50:39,982 getting away from digital stuff. 1303 00:50:40,122 --> 00:50:41,242 So I actually don't even, 1304 00:50:41,581 --> 00:50:43,521 I mean, I do have the note-taking use case 1305 00:50:43,521 --> 00:50:45,061 because I'll just think of something 1306 00:50:45,061 --> 00:50:46,162 and I want to remember it. 1307 00:50:46,541 --> 00:50:48,482 So I'd love a very slick experience 1308 00:50:48,482 --> 00:50:49,662 to just record that note 1309 00:50:49,662 --> 00:50:52,282 and be able to focus and move on. 1310 00:50:52,782 --> 00:50:54,942 But I don't really want to be interacting 1311 00:50:54,942 --> 00:50:59,081 with a group chat AI while trail running. 1312 00:50:59,342 --> 00:50:59,462 Totally. 1313 00:50:59,702 --> 00:51:00,541 I guess what I'm saying is 1314 00:51:00,541 --> 00:51:02,402 there should be options for different, 1315 00:51:02,502 --> 00:51:03,061 and I don't know what, 1316 00:51:03,282 --> 00:51:05,182 it might be a different answer for different people, 1317 00:51:05,182 --> 00:51:09,581 but it's almost the first time with technology 1318 00:51:09,581 --> 00:51:11,682 in a long time where I've been like, it's too good. 1319 00:51:16,002 --> 00:51:17,902 I also think that, anyway, 1320 00:51:18,021 --> 00:51:21,002 I think the group chat stuff, 1321 00:51:21,362 --> 00:51:24,081 one, we're doing a lot of these because it's all new. 1322 00:51:24,422 --> 00:51:26,862 In reality, most people, 1323 00:51:26,862 --> 00:51:29,561 they'll have just one group chat with friends. 1324 00:51:30,402 --> 00:51:33,862 And the experience will be optimized 1325 00:51:33,862 --> 00:51:39,762 optimized and fine-tuned and it won't it won't feel it'll just feel enriched and not busy yeah 1326 00:51:39,762 --> 00:51:44,322 busier yeah and don't get me wrong i love it like it's there's a reason i'm coming back i'm coming 1327 00:51:44,322 --> 00:51:47,902 back because it's fun and it's funny and it's cool but then as i said in my you know little 1328 00:51:47,902 --> 00:51:52,842 tweet thing it's like oh shit two hours went by like where did that go yeah i've also noticed in 1329 00:51:52,842 --> 00:52:00,242 this other group chat i created um a lot of the participants um well they don't they aren't really 1330 00:52:00,242 --> 00:52:02,122 engaging the way that maybe we were. 1331 00:52:02,242 --> 00:52:04,942 So they're probably not seeing much value 1332 00:52:04,942 --> 00:52:06,002 or getting much value out of it. 1333 00:52:06,102 --> 00:52:09,602 So I think the onboarding needs... 1334 00:52:09,602 --> 00:52:10,122 Yeah, super great. 1335 00:52:10,122 --> 00:52:12,462 The onboarding is really good for just being created, 1336 00:52:12,581 --> 00:52:15,202 but it needs to be optimized even more 1337 00:52:15,202 --> 00:52:17,842 and just get each person 1338 00:52:17,842 --> 00:52:21,842 into the awesome experience that we've been having. 1339 00:52:21,842 --> 00:52:22,282 Yeah. 1340 00:52:22,822 --> 00:52:24,802 Well, one onboarding idea for that is 1341 00:52:24,802 --> 00:52:27,202 if the bot can listen 1342 00:52:27,202 --> 00:52:30,182 and after it gets enough contacts, 1343 00:52:30,242 --> 00:52:30,822 from the group. 1344 00:52:31,902 --> 00:52:33,061 For each person, 1345 00:52:33,142 --> 00:52:33,822 either respond with 1346 00:52:33,822 --> 00:52:34,762 kind of like a custom 1347 00:52:34,762 --> 00:52:36,722 kind of like ribbing of them 1348 00:52:36,722 --> 00:52:37,882 or a custom meme 1349 00:52:37,882 --> 00:52:39,041 and just be like, 1350 00:52:39,061 --> 00:52:40,521 just like drop it. 1351 00:52:40,521 --> 00:52:41,382 So here's something I did 1352 00:52:41,382 --> 00:52:42,802 in the spiral one. 1353 00:52:43,142 --> 00:52:47,262 I told Ori to welcome 1354 00:52:47,262 --> 00:52:48,922 anyone new who joins. 1355 00:52:49,541 --> 00:52:50,922 I also pointed it to 1356 00:52:50,922 --> 00:52:51,802 Here Comes Bitcoin, 1357 00:52:52,842 --> 00:52:53,662 the website, 1358 00:52:54,282 --> 00:52:58,662 with all the Mr. Bitcoin, 1359 00:52:58,802 --> 00:52:59,521 Mr. Bitcoin, whatever, 1360 00:52:59,521 --> 00:53:02,762 all the different GIFs and animated GIFs, etc. 1361 00:53:03,561 --> 00:53:06,402 and said that we want to incorporate that content 1362 00:53:06,402 --> 00:53:08,622 heavily in this group chat. 1363 00:53:09,942 --> 00:53:12,462 And so I asked it to welcome 1364 00:53:12,462 --> 00:53:14,182 each new person who comes 1365 00:53:14,182 --> 00:53:17,581 and I also pointed it to the Spiral website 1366 00:53:17,581 --> 00:53:21,722 which has a humorous description of each of us 1367 00:53:21,722 --> 00:53:23,982 to welcome them with a custom message 1368 00:53:23,982 --> 00:53:25,922 pick a character from that website 1369 00:53:25,922 --> 00:53:29,222 and then also ask them for their human Bitcoin address 1370 00:53:29,222 --> 00:53:32,302 and then tip them some Bitcoin. 1371 00:53:33,581 --> 00:53:38,102 And learned that while Telegram has the event 1372 00:53:38,102 --> 00:53:40,262 of someone joined the group, 1373 00:53:40,722 --> 00:53:43,021 OpenClaw does not currently pass that on. 1374 00:53:43,162 --> 00:53:45,521 So a PR was created in OpenClaw to make that happen. 1375 00:53:45,602 --> 00:53:47,502 So once that happens, then that event will occur 1376 00:53:47,502 --> 00:53:48,662 and the AI can respond. 1377 00:53:48,662 --> 00:53:52,342 But right now it needs the person to actually type a message 1378 00:53:52,342 --> 00:53:53,561 to do that. 1379 00:53:54,182 --> 00:53:57,242 But I think that's cool to have that welcoming message. 1380 00:53:57,242 --> 00:54:00,362 also by sending them some Bitcoin 1381 00:54:00,362 --> 00:54:02,242 it like lets people know 1382 00:54:02,242 --> 00:54:04,541 oh like money is part of this 1383 00:54:04,541 --> 00:54:05,902 like money is integrated in this 1384 00:54:05,902 --> 00:54:08,002 natively integrated and really easy to use 1385 00:54:08,002 --> 00:54:10,602 so I think like first out of the box 1386 00:54:10,602 --> 00:54:12,081 experiences like that are really good 1387 00:54:12,081 --> 00:54:15,021 yeah and I have a friend 1388 00:54:15,021 --> 00:54:16,622 who I shared OriBot with 1389 00:54:16,622 --> 00:54:18,602 he created a new group 1390 00:54:18,602 --> 00:54:19,982 that didn't exist before 1391 00:54:19,982 --> 00:54:22,021 so it's kind of like newly constituted group 1392 00:54:22,021 --> 00:54:23,302 kind of threw a bunch of people in there 1393 00:54:23,302 --> 00:54:24,561 and then it's kind of like 1394 00:54:24,561 --> 00:54:26,142 okay where's the magic 1395 00:54:26,142 --> 00:54:31,642 and I felt like I was kind of trying to pull the fun out of it 1396 00:54:31,642 --> 00:54:33,482 and I didn't know how to do that exactly. 1397 00:54:34,061 --> 00:54:36,222 So I think if you constitute a new group, 1398 00:54:36,282 --> 00:54:37,462 maybe that's just like a bad idea. 1399 00:54:38,222 --> 00:54:40,762 But if you got OriBot showing up, 1400 00:54:41,021 --> 00:54:43,362 kind of being quiet and you need some sort of ringleader 1401 00:54:43,362 --> 00:54:45,722 to kind of poke it and be like, do your thing. 1402 00:54:46,502 --> 00:54:47,722 That was awkward. 1403 00:54:47,842 --> 00:54:50,202 So I think maybe encouraging people to use it with groups 1404 00:54:50,202 --> 00:54:52,722 that already exist is probably one thing that would help a lot. 1405 00:54:53,322 --> 00:54:55,362 And then also maybe having Ori be like, 1406 00:54:55,362 --> 00:54:59,581 a little more aggressively stirring the pot in his first hour 1407 00:54:59,581 --> 00:55:03,622 to try to, you know, understand more about the group dynamics, 1408 00:55:03,742 --> 00:55:06,222 get people talking to him, get people talking to each other 1409 00:55:06,222 --> 00:55:09,202 to just sort of generate a little bit of the feel 1410 00:55:09,202 --> 00:55:11,362 and you don't have to feel like, oh, it's supposed to do its thing 1411 00:55:11,362 --> 00:55:14,882 and you're more like, you just like let it flow kind of more naturally. 1412 00:55:15,622 --> 00:55:15,702 Yeah. 1413 00:55:16,702 --> 00:55:18,642 I also noticed, you know, you called it him. 1414 00:55:18,762 --> 00:55:20,162 I looked up the name Ori. 1415 00:55:20,382 --> 00:55:21,822 It's a gender neutral name. 1416 00:55:23,041 --> 00:55:24,382 Are we giving it pronouns now, Steve? 1417 00:55:24,382 --> 00:55:26,102 no 1418 00:55:26,102 --> 00:55:27,982 because Haley 1419 00:55:27,982 --> 00:55:29,502 you can rename the bot 1420 00:55:29,502 --> 00:55:30,882 so Haley created a group 1421 00:55:30,882 --> 00:55:32,081 and she named the bot 1422 00:55:32,081 --> 00:55:33,502 like a clearly female name 1423 00:55:33,502 --> 00:55:34,742 that just got me to wondering 1424 00:55:34,742 --> 00:55:37,041 oh is Ori male or female 1425 00:55:37,041 --> 00:55:38,302 it's gender neutral 1426 00:55:38,302 --> 00:55:38,922 but it is 1427 00:55:38,922 --> 00:55:41,561 it's a common Israeli name 1428 00:55:41,561 --> 00:55:42,182 Hebrew name 1429 00:55:42,182 --> 00:55:43,242 but also Japanese 1430 00:55:43,242 --> 00:55:44,021 as Japanese 1431 00:55:44,021 --> 00:55:45,081 it's used in Japan too 1432 00:55:45,081 --> 00:55:46,642 but definitely 1433 00:55:46,642 --> 00:55:47,722 it's given to more men 1434 00:55:47,722 --> 00:55:48,541 than women 1435 00:55:48,541 --> 00:55:49,442 but I think 1436 00:55:49,442 --> 00:55:51,322 that's another twist too 1437 00:55:51,322 --> 00:55:52,662 just naming your bot 1438 00:55:52,662 --> 00:55:53,202 and then like 1439 00:55:53,202 --> 00:55:54,162 personality wise 1440 00:55:54,162 --> 00:56:01,822 does it take on like a male or feminine or female personality but my guess is also this there's 1441 00:56:01,822 --> 00:56:06,202 probably needs to be some kind of like listening period before he just starts wilding out like 1442 00:56:06,202 --> 00:56:10,842 i think sap bot was in our chat for at least a day or two maybe a couple several days before i 1443 00:56:10,842 --> 00:56:14,942 really i was just like oh it's just kind of weird thing nick has put in there and then it was only 1444 00:56:14,942 --> 00:56:18,882 after he started like making memes and like making me laugh and i was like all right this 1445 00:56:18,882 --> 00:56:23,581 right so but maybe he needed to sit in there to get the context first of like what are these guys 1446 00:56:23,581 --> 00:56:25,722 into, I don't know, there's probably like, 1447 00:56:26,142 --> 00:56:28,081 yeah, like maybe the deal is you add it to the group, 1448 00:56:28,242 --> 00:56:29,982 just let it sit fallow, fallow, whatever, 1449 00:56:30,122 --> 00:56:32,081 for an hour or two, and then he starts wild. 1450 00:56:32,302 --> 00:56:35,682 I almost feel like the name Ori is fine 1451 00:56:35,682 --> 00:56:39,242 for a product or platform, but almost like when you add, 1452 00:56:39,581 --> 00:56:43,061 instead of you adding Ori, you should add person X, 1453 00:56:43,402 --> 00:56:46,502 name Y, you should sort of come up with that, 1454 00:56:46,782 --> 00:56:47,922 or at least he can be like, hey, 1455 00:56:47,962 --> 00:56:48,862 you can name me anything you want. 1456 00:56:48,982 --> 00:56:50,282 Here's a few ideas or whatever. 1457 00:56:51,081 --> 00:56:54,581 But I'm in a bunch of chats now that all have this Ori in it, 1458 00:56:54,622 --> 00:56:55,822 but they're kind of all different. 1459 00:56:56,162 --> 00:56:56,402 Yeah. 1460 00:56:56,402 --> 00:56:59,202 Like the one that I'm in with you guys versus the one I'm in with you guys 1461 00:56:59,202 --> 00:57:01,482 plus the other investor guy. 1462 00:57:01,762 --> 00:57:02,541 Those are different. 1463 00:57:03,002 --> 00:57:04,202 I don't want to dox people. 1464 00:57:04,382 --> 00:57:04,642 It's fine. 1465 00:57:05,502 --> 00:57:06,762 You know what I'm talking about. 1466 00:57:07,521 --> 00:57:09,402 And then there's other friend groups and stuff. 1467 00:57:09,561 --> 00:57:11,262 So they all have this Ori in it. 1468 00:57:11,442 --> 00:57:15,021 And like for me, having several instances of this thing called Ori 1469 00:57:15,021 --> 00:57:18,262 that are all different is a little kind of strange. 1470 00:57:18,581 --> 00:57:19,402 It's hard to... 1471 00:57:19,402 --> 00:57:22,842 And we've been also teasing out actually how it works, right? 1472 00:57:22,962 --> 00:57:27,041 So, I mean, I created this new group, Telegram group, new bot, Ori. 1473 00:57:27,962 --> 00:57:30,302 I added it to the group. 1474 00:57:30,742 --> 00:57:32,041 I also can DM it. 1475 00:57:32,142 --> 00:57:33,002 So I was DMing it. 1476 00:57:33,061 --> 00:57:34,402 That's how I created the Bitcoin wallet. 1477 00:57:35,021 --> 00:57:41,682 And then I was trying to feed it rules and instructions privately in DM that would impact the group. 1478 00:57:42,182 --> 00:57:44,561 And at first that wasn't working, but then we got it working. 1479 00:57:45,521 --> 00:57:49,041 So just making all that work seamlessly and clear makes sense. 1480 00:57:49,041 --> 00:57:51,262 And then if you add it to multiple group chats, 1481 00:57:51,422 --> 00:57:52,602 just like people should understand, 1482 00:57:52,782 --> 00:57:54,021 like, is it the same instance? 1483 00:57:54,561 --> 00:57:56,682 Is like its memory in this one 1484 00:57:56,682 --> 00:57:58,182 going to transfer over here? 1485 00:57:58,561 --> 00:58:01,021 Is it learning from all these different group chats? 1486 00:58:01,202 --> 00:58:02,682 I still don't know all the answers to that. 1487 00:58:02,982 --> 00:58:04,442 And I think this is a huge opportunity 1488 00:58:04,442 --> 00:58:07,222 for potentially something like Noster as well, 1489 00:58:07,622 --> 00:58:09,322 because you can have whatever, 1490 00:58:09,482 --> 00:58:10,442 all these just like names, 1491 00:58:10,541 --> 00:58:12,122 how the hell do I know which bot this is, right? 1492 00:58:12,202 --> 00:58:14,602 Like to me, ultimately what I'm going to want to see 1493 00:58:14,602 --> 00:58:16,061 is a signed message with a private key. 1494 00:58:16,642 --> 00:58:17,922 Like I'm going to, I want to see, 1495 00:58:17,922 --> 00:58:22,682 And I think what you can start doing is you can have, you know, maybe these bots either 1496 00:58:22,682 --> 00:58:25,142 to start a human kind of vouchers for them. 1497 00:58:25,182 --> 00:58:27,502 So maybe there is one Ori or DK's Ori. 1498 00:58:27,982 --> 00:58:30,081 And it's like, I think Matt had this feedback last night. 1499 00:58:30,122 --> 00:58:32,762 It's like, you kind of like build a particular context. 1500 00:58:32,822 --> 00:58:37,342 In fact, that's a marketable thing because it's like, I know DK's Ori is really, really 1501 00:58:37,342 --> 00:58:38,942 funny and is super good at memes. 1502 00:58:39,142 --> 00:58:40,742 That's the guy I want to bring in my chat. 1503 00:58:40,882 --> 00:58:41,041 Okay. 1504 00:58:41,081 --> 00:58:45,342 DK will let me call his Ori for this rate sats per minute or like sats per call. 1505 00:58:45,622 --> 00:58:45,842 Cool. 1506 00:58:45,842 --> 00:58:49,902 So, you know, Steve has a bot that, you know, is really good at explaining Bitcoin stuff. 1507 00:58:50,142 --> 00:58:51,142 He has a different rate for it. 1508 00:58:51,162 --> 00:58:51,962 I bring it in for that. 1509 00:58:52,322 --> 00:58:56,102 But I think over time, these guys, you're going to want to see them publish. 1510 00:58:56,642 --> 00:59:01,541 You know, ideally, what would be cool is these bots publish and sign with their Nostra key, 1511 00:59:02,061 --> 00:59:04,882 their memory files or their soul files or whatever they're called. 1512 00:59:04,882 --> 00:59:08,561 So you can go, like the more transparency, the better to see what's going on in there. 1513 00:59:08,962 --> 00:59:13,262 You probably need some way to kind of like, you know, build a moat around the personality 1514 00:59:13,262 --> 00:59:14,162 and customize it. 1515 00:59:14,162 --> 00:59:17,602 But ideally, you want to see these guys vouch. 1516 00:59:18,561 --> 00:59:20,061 And also, like, that they're not malware. 1517 00:59:20,262 --> 00:59:21,521 Like, how do I know I'm not adding Ori? 1518 00:59:21,602 --> 00:59:25,702 And Ori is really just trying to drain, you know, drain my lightning wallet or whatever. 1519 00:59:27,122 --> 00:59:28,262 It raises a question. 1520 00:59:28,702 --> 00:59:32,862 Matt says, feels like it should be part of the chat substrate everywhere it will be. 1521 00:59:34,002 --> 00:59:41,002 Separately, I think I shared a chat with a friend of mine who had worked on a lot of chat and messaging services at big tech companies. 1522 00:59:41,002 --> 00:59:42,442 And he's like, this is awesome. 1523 00:59:42,442 --> 00:59:43,902 is like, you know, the best idea ever. 1524 00:59:44,202 --> 00:59:45,902 But he's like, aren't the big tech companies 1525 00:59:45,902 --> 00:59:46,422 going to do that? 1526 00:59:46,561 --> 00:59:49,442 So I wanted to pose that as a question. 1527 00:59:50,061 --> 00:59:52,182 Is this just going to be natively integrated 1528 00:59:52,182 --> 00:59:53,802 into all existing chat services? 1529 00:59:54,081 --> 00:59:56,061 Or is there some way to sort of break out 1530 00:59:56,061 --> 00:59:57,862 or carve out more space for the new here? 1531 00:59:59,782 --> 01:00:01,702 I mean, my initial thought is, 1532 01:00:01,702 --> 01:00:03,521 again, I come back to being able to do this 1533 01:00:03,521 --> 01:00:05,262 in a private setting, 1534 01:00:05,581 --> 01:00:07,482 using open protocols with open money. 1535 01:00:08,182 --> 01:00:09,942 I'm sure Google and other people will do it, 1536 01:00:09,982 --> 01:00:10,942 and I'm sure they'll be good. 1537 01:00:10,942 --> 01:00:13,662 but like there's a certain amount of wilding out 1538 01:00:13,662 --> 01:00:15,962 that I don't want to do on Google 1539 01:00:15,962 --> 01:00:17,362 and Google probably will not do. 1540 01:00:18,642 --> 01:00:20,662 But they, I mean, in theory, 1541 01:00:20,762 --> 01:00:23,041 they could do a private technical solution 1542 01:00:23,041 --> 01:00:25,521 just like Apple does a lot of high quality 1543 01:00:25,521 --> 01:00:27,502 private technical solutions. 1544 01:00:27,662 --> 01:00:28,302 So they could do that. 1545 01:00:29,162 --> 01:00:31,982 I think at least for a period of time, 1546 01:00:32,322 --> 01:00:34,061 probably a couple of years, 1547 01:00:34,282 --> 01:00:37,742 there's going to be a zillion solutions created 1548 01:00:37,742 --> 01:00:39,102 and it's just so, I mean, 1549 01:00:39,162 --> 01:00:40,622 every day we're learning more. 1550 01:00:40,942 --> 01:00:48,081 So the final solution is not known until a couple years from now maybe or longer. 1551 01:00:48,362 --> 01:00:52,402 And so there's plenty of opportunity for startups. 1552 01:00:54,822 --> 01:00:58,581 But it does seem like it will ultimately be integrated into the big messaging platforms. 1553 01:00:59,922 --> 01:01:03,561 It could also be like if a startup really gains a foothold, 1554 01:01:03,561 --> 01:01:07,862 it can become its own messaging platform as well over time 1555 01:01:07,862 --> 01:01:11,502 and pull people away from WhatsApp or Telegram or whatever, 1556 01:01:11,762 --> 01:01:13,162 that might be possible as well. 1557 01:01:14,222 --> 01:01:17,081 I think the permissionless commerce is also a huge moat. 1558 01:01:17,622 --> 01:01:18,862 There are certain things, 1559 01:01:18,942 --> 01:01:20,462 the fact that Ori is just going around 1560 01:01:20,462 --> 01:01:21,622 and zapping on the internet, 1561 01:01:21,962 --> 01:01:24,422 like Google is going to have to be much stricter 1562 01:01:24,422 --> 01:01:26,462 with its rules and KYC and all this stuff. 1563 01:01:26,581 --> 01:01:28,581 If someone's running a private chat for their friends, 1564 01:01:28,702 --> 01:01:29,922 they can just have a lot more leeway. 1565 01:01:30,602 --> 01:01:31,462 And I also agree with Nick. 1566 01:01:31,502 --> 01:01:32,322 He says, goes back and forth, 1567 01:01:32,402 --> 01:01:34,182 built-in AI on Facebook, Google's cringe. 1568 01:01:35,041 --> 01:01:36,541 Maybe Google's becoming less cringe, 1569 01:01:36,622 --> 01:01:37,702 but in general, those companies, 1570 01:01:37,702 --> 01:01:38,541 whenever they ship stuff. 1571 01:01:38,682 --> 01:01:39,642 It's for billions of people. 1572 01:01:39,782 --> 01:01:43,142 It's got to be PC and mild and nerfed. 1573 01:01:43,342 --> 01:01:45,162 The only one that might wild out enough 1574 01:01:45,162 --> 01:01:46,502 to actually get traction in my mind 1575 01:01:46,502 --> 01:01:47,362 is Elon and X. 1576 01:01:49,061 --> 01:01:51,962 Their messaging service would be just DMs on Twitter? 1577 01:01:52,122 --> 01:01:52,282 Yeah. 1578 01:01:53,642 --> 01:01:55,162 Well, I mean, what's your date? 1579 01:01:56,302 --> 01:01:59,342 Well, I mean, I think it's possible 1580 01:01:59,342 --> 01:02:02,061 that the large tech companies 1581 01:02:02,061 --> 01:02:03,242 choose to go after this, 1582 01:02:03,302 --> 01:02:04,822 but they probably won't choose to 1583 01:02:04,822 --> 01:02:06,242 until they see a lot of traction 1584 01:02:06,242 --> 01:02:07,521 is typically what happens. 1585 01:02:07,521 --> 01:02:14,521 If you own a big otherwise moat, you kind of wait, let R&D happen outside and in the world. 1586 01:02:14,642 --> 01:02:16,922 And then when something pops and looks interesting, you figure out how to incorporate. 1587 01:02:17,081 --> 01:02:29,061 It's kind of, you know, a canonical example might be the way that, you know, the Snapchat stories concept was very nicely integrated into Instagram as Instagram stories. 1588 01:02:29,402 --> 01:02:34,162 You know, same exact product, but the experience was developed outside and then sort of incorporated effectively. 1589 01:02:34,422 --> 01:02:35,282 So the question is... 1590 01:02:35,282 --> 01:02:36,942 That's the rare example. 1591 01:02:36,942 --> 01:02:37,782 That's a real example, yeah. 1592 01:02:38,682 --> 01:02:39,762 Typically these things kind of get... 1593 01:02:39,762 --> 01:02:41,902 I thought it would fail just because it typically fails. 1594 01:02:42,541 --> 01:02:43,422 It typically fails. 1595 01:02:43,481 --> 01:02:45,142 So I think if you wanted to think about 1596 01:02:45,142 --> 01:02:47,642 what are the opportunities for a startup 1597 01:02:47,642 --> 01:02:49,962 or why wouldn't, let's say you're a product manager 1598 01:02:49,962 --> 01:02:51,081 running WhatsApp. 1599 01:02:52,041 --> 01:02:54,081 What do you do if you notice this 1600 01:02:54,081 --> 01:02:54,802 and think it's interesting? 1601 01:02:54,802 --> 01:02:56,981 Well, I think one of the hard things 1602 01:02:56,981 --> 01:02:59,142 is you can't just clone it 1603 01:02:59,142 --> 01:03:00,442 and push it out to a billion people 1604 01:03:00,442 --> 01:03:02,802 because it doesn't really work 1605 01:03:02,802 --> 01:03:04,981 quite perfectly today and it does a lot 1606 01:03:04,981 --> 01:03:06,202 of weird things and I think we're 1607 01:03:06,202 --> 01:03:10,322 We're working through, just real time, we're working through the things that are problematic. 1608 01:03:11,242 --> 01:03:31,602 But, you know, there's all like the sole MD file is going to compound and become, you know, an asset that if you have done the work and gone through the trickiness of how the human behavior around it works and how to coach the AI into it, I think having a really good kind of explainer of like, what do I know? 1609 01:03:31,602 --> 01:03:35,922 what is my personality, which other chat services am I installed to, 1610 01:03:36,001 --> 01:03:39,362 I think that's one opportunity to sort of get, 1611 01:03:40,142 --> 01:03:43,142 it works on a small scale and it doesn't work on a big scale. 1612 01:03:44,402 --> 01:03:47,602 That just made me think of something else too that may be interesting. 1613 01:03:48,981 --> 01:03:54,762 One moat that a startup can create is that they have a new concept, 1614 01:03:54,962 --> 01:03:57,742 they introduce that product, they go through many iterations, 1615 01:03:57,742 --> 01:04:02,802 and then it's harder for others to copy it 1616 01:04:02,802 --> 01:04:04,762 because they don't have sort of that institution knowledge. 1617 01:04:04,962 --> 01:04:09,602 They didn't have that direct experience with users 1618 01:04:09,602 --> 01:04:11,162 to learn from that. 1619 01:04:11,622 --> 01:04:13,342 So just copying what you see 1620 01:04:13,342 --> 01:04:17,501 doesn't necessarily have the soul of the product, right? 1621 01:04:18,081 --> 01:04:22,041 Now, with the acceleration of product development, 1622 01:04:22,182 --> 01:04:24,802 those iteration cycles are 10x, 100x faster. 1623 01:04:25,102 --> 01:04:26,242 So the amount, 1624 01:04:26,242 --> 01:04:30,682 Well, you both create a moat faster, but also a deeper moat, I'd argue. 1625 01:04:31,302 --> 01:04:35,382 Conversely, though, if you're trying to catch up, you also have powerful tools to build. 1626 01:04:35,642 --> 01:04:40,922 So you maybe can copy and build and build your own institutional knowledge faster. 1627 01:04:41,102 --> 01:04:47,102 So I'm not sure if one party has an advantage or not, or if they're both faster now. 1628 01:04:47,142 --> 01:04:50,081 Yeah, I wouldn't argue that it's absolutely one way or the other. 1629 01:04:50,182 --> 01:04:54,521 I think that it's interesting because it's not obvious that one way or the other is going to work. 1630 01:04:54,521 --> 01:05:07,462 I do think, though, the bottleneck in that compounding is the human behavior and judgment about which things that we're doing should be incorporated into the product versus which are just sort of transient or passive. 1631 01:05:07,462 --> 01:05:10,462 And then there's just traditional brand development, too. 1632 01:05:11,061 --> 01:05:12,981 Like, why do people not switch away from something? 1633 01:05:13,202 --> 01:05:16,501 Well, they first learned this new behavior because of brand X. 1634 01:05:17,182 --> 01:05:20,762 And then why switch to brand Y if it's not that differentiated? 1635 01:05:21,041 --> 01:05:22,041 You just sort of get stuck with it. 1636 01:05:22,041 --> 01:05:25,322 Google, of course, won big at that. 1637 01:05:26,001 --> 01:05:28,102 But they also had to overcome early adoption 1638 01:05:28,102 --> 01:05:30,142 of AltaVista and other search engines. 1639 01:05:31,682 --> 01:05:32,882 But once they... 1640 01:05:32,882 --> 01:05:38,622 And Google was massively better than everything that came behind. 1641 01:05:38,622 --> 01:05:40,142 I mean, the first time you used it, 1642 01:05:40,462 --> 01:05:42,481 the quality of search tools was so much better, right? 1643 01:05:43,902 --> 01:05:51,342 But then, like, why would you switch from Internet Explorer to Chrome 1644 01:05:51,342 --> 01:05:52,962 and just questions like that. 1645 01:05:53,342 --> 01:05:54,602 So in modern time, 1646 01:05:54,762 --> 01:05:57,822 why switch from chat GPT to Gemini? 1647 01:05:58,021 --> 01:05:59,622 And we're seeing that shift right now, 1648 01:05:59,962 --> 01:06:01,501 but that's been an open question as well. 1649 01:06:01,722 --> 01:06:02,702 So in my mind, 1650 01:06:02,842 --> 01:06:04,322 there's a couple of potential moats here. 1651 01:06:04,481 --> 01:06:05,842 There's a whole lot of chat 1652 01:06:05,842 --> 01:06:07,581 between Matt and Barris 1653 01:06:07,581 --> 01:06:10,041 about apparently Marty is trading, 1654 01:06:10,242 --> 01:06:11,501 it looks like, with a bot 1655 01:06:11,501 --> 01:06:14,302 and Barris is suggesting some Nostro bots 1656 01:06:14,302 --> 01:06:15,622 that are trading to explain their positions. 1657 01:06:16,041 --> 01:06:16,541 In my mind, 1658 01:06:16,642 --> 01:06:19,602 the first giant moat is going to be, 1659 01:06:19,722 --> 01:06:20,342 or not moat, 1660 01:06:20,342 --> 01:06:23,622 but the first way to get a foothold here is permissionless. 1661 01:06:24,282 --> 01:06:27,702 Google is not going to let you create bots 1662 01:06:27,702 --> 01:06:30,342 to just go wild out on Noster and trade on markets. 1663 01:06:31,102 --> 01:06:34,442 People with their own Mac minis will be doing that, 1664 01:06:34,521 --> 01:06:35,142 is my view. 1665 01:06:35,561 --> 01:06:37,322 Which, by the way, as an aside you said, 1666 01:06:37,402 --> 01:06:39,202 everyone's like, oh, Apple doesn't know how to monetize AI. 1667 01:06:39,782 --> 01:06:41,602 Apple knows exactly how to monetize AI. 1668 01:06:41,762 --> 01:06:43,021 Apple's so well positioned. 1669 01:06:43,561 --> 01:06:46,782 If this world keeps going where you want things 1670 01:06:46,782 --> 01:06:48,581 that are kind of living on the edge 1671 01:06:48,581 --> 01:06:49,742 and gray areas at first, 1672 01:06:49,742 --> 01:06:53,642 Like that's going to happen on a Mac mini, not on Google's cloud, because Google is just 1673 01:06:53,642 --> 01:06:54,462 going to be too risk averse. 1674 01:06:54,561 --> 01:06:55,422 Same for all of these companies. 1675 01:06:55,501 --> 01:06:56,222 That's my first thought. 1676 01:06:57,162 --> 01:07:03,581 If you can gain traction, so say, for example, just like everything in Bitcoin, Bitcoin Tether 1677 01:07:03,581 --> 01:07:07,422 and all these things kind of started in these like kind of weird gray areas, get major adoption, 1678 01:07:07,521 --> 01:07:08,942 then go mainstream because they're too big. 1679 01:07:10,102 --> 01:07:14,481 Then, you know, one way to build up that moat quickly is through your lightning node. 1680 01:07:14,762 --> 01:07:18,102 So if you're like the most well connected with all these different services and you 1681 01:07:18,102 --> 01:07:21,202 have the best routes and like, you know, Google can come in and plop a lot of capital, but they 1682 01:07:21,202 --> 01:07:26,081 can't just build that from scratch if it evolves organically over time. And then the other thing 1683 01:07:26,081 --> 01:07:32,822 though is what I'm really, really interested in, the interesting moat here is, is there a way to 1684 01:07:32,822 --> 01:07:38,922 get a better data feedback wheel? And I don't know exactly, I'm kind of thinking real time about this, 1685 01:07:39,642 --> 01:07:45,561 but I've kind of said, sort of actually believing it, sort of hoping it's true that AGI can emerge 1686 01:07:45,561 --> 01:07:47,561 from Nostra because it's this open substrate. 1687 01:07:47,822 --> 01:07:49,862 So it seems to me the reason Anthropic 1688 01:07:49,862 --> 01:07:52,081 is kind of running laps around a lot of their labs, 1689 01:07:52,182 --> 01:07:54,202 despite having way less funding and resources, 1690 01:07:54,762 --> 01:07:56,462 is that they focused all on coding. 1691 01:07:56,581 --> 01:08:00,842 And so their synthetic data generation feedback loops 1692 01:08:00,842 --> 01:08:01,882 are just tighter and faster. 1693 01:08:01,981 --> 01:08:03,442 So the software engineers use this 1694 01:08:03,442 --> 01:08:04,142 because it's better at coding. 1695 01:08:04,302 --> 01:08:05,962 That leads to more code being created. 1696 01:08:06,061 --> 01:08:07,142 That leads to better training. 1697 01:08:07,282 --> 01:08:08,602 It's a flywheel. 1698 01:08:09,102 --> 01:08:22,282 And so I wonder I don know what the answer is but someone can create a flywheel with these open permissionless AIs around permissionless commerce and frankly creating things like memes that are wilding out in a way that Google and Facebook just won approve 1699 01:08:22,902 --> 01:08:27,203 And again, you'll have to compete with Elon because he will do whatever. 1700 01:08:27,362 --> 01:08:28,862 And so he'll probably win on that front. 1701 01:08:29,242 --> 01:08:34,942 But I think there's a chance to somehow build that open flywheel with better synthetic data. 1702 01:08:35,063 --> 01:08:36,762 Now, that could be open to anyone. 1703 01:08:36,882 --> 01:08:39,382 I don't know how to keep any of that proprietary or even if you want to. 1704 01:08:39,382 --> 01:08:41,643 but there's something to this idea that 1705 01:08:41,643 --> 01:08:43,583 if you can get better real authentic 1706 01:08:43,583 --> 01:08:44,342 human synthetic 1707 01:08:44,342 --> 01:08:47,583 better authentic synthetic data 1708 01:08:47,583 --> 01:08:48,902 which I know sounds like an oxymoron 1709 01:08:48,902 --> 01:08:51,742 someone can build a unique AI 1710 01:08:51,742 --> 01:08:52,282 from that 1711 01:08:52,282 --> 01:08:55,143 I think you can definitely build 1712 01:08:55,143 --> 01:08:57,342 profitable sustainable businesses 1713 01:08:57,342 --> 01:08:58,422 on open technology 1714 01:08:58,422 --> 01:09:01,842 Bitcoin, Oster, I see no reason why that 1715 01:09:01,842 --> 01:09:03,822 prevents you from building 1716 01:09:03,822 --> 01:09:05,402 profitable businesses 1717 01:09:05,402 --> 01:09:06,922 Google's built on the open web 1718 01:09:06,922 --> 01:09:08,482 and Linux 1719 01:09:08,482 --> 01:09:10,643 So actually, so a question for you guys, 1720 01:09:11,302 --> 01:09:14,523 how could someone build a Google-sized business on Nostra 1721 01:09:14,523 --> 01:09:16,723 with these kinds of like, all the data is open, 1722 01:09:16,802 --> 01:09:18,342 how could you build that synthetic flywheel 1723 01:09:18,342 --> 01:09:19,982 that allows you to monetize? 1724 01:09:21,402 --> 01:09:25,802 Well, it's a few, I mean, does it need to be open? 1725 01:09:25,882 --> 01:09:26,802 Does it need to be on Nostra? 1726 01:09:26,922 --> 01:09:27,563 Does it need to be? 1727 01:09:27,782 --> 01:09:29,402 You can do with that question what you will. 1728 01:09:29,623 --> 01:09:33,382 Because I think like something Google scale requires 1729 01:09:33,382 --> 01:09:35,882 like a really big change that a lot of people are missing. 1730 01:09:35,882 --> 01:09:41,242 and then you figure out an interesting way to do something that nobody's really noticing yet. 1731 01:09:41,902 --> 01:09:53,223 To me, I've had an inclination for a long time that there'd be something like this Ori thing. 1732 01:09:53,922 --> 01:10:00,023 Now that we've played with it for a week or so, I feel like that draws me more 1733 01:10:00,023 --> 01:10:05,842 because it reshapes all of how apps get built, information gets gathered, 1734 01:10:05,882 --> 01:10:10,542 social networking, you know, communication, collaboration happens, commerce. 1735 01:10:10,742 --> 01:10:16,862 So it kind of touches on all the main themes of how, like, why the internet, how the internet 1736 01:10:16,862 --> 01:10:17,862 works as a business. 1737 01:10:18,242 --> 01:10:23,563 And so Google was just early to figuring that out in the, like, people publish web pages 1738 01:10:23,563 --> 01:10:24,462 version of the internet. 1739 01:10:24,703 --> 01:10:25,602 We're well past that. 1740 01:10:25,683 --> 01:10:30,223 They've done a good job continuing to compound their lead to serve that. 1741 01:10:30,262 --> 01:10:34,523 But I think the new opportunity may be in just, like, restructuring, you know, the way, 1742 01:10:34,523 --> 01:10:38,063 information retrieval and information organization 1743 01:10:38,063 --> 01:10:40,002 and app building and commerce 1744 01:10:40,002 --> 01:10:42,663 and community and communication all work. 1745 01:10:43,322 --> 01:10:47,023 And it doesn't seem like it's decisively controlled by anybody 1746 01:10:47,023 --> 01:10:48,882 and it seems like what we see in Ori 1747 01:10:48,882 --> 01:10:52,402 is a new way to do 1748 01:10:52,402 --> 01:10:54,542 basically all of that. 1749 01:10:54,902 --> 01:10:56,422 It reshapes all of it. 1750 01:10:56,762 --> 01:10:58,102 It's like a new interface for the web. 1751 01:10:59,102 --> 01:11:01,942 Every time I build a new browser, it's like, oh, it's an LLM 1752 01:11:01,942 --> 01:11:03,083 as a Chrome extension. 1753 01:11:03,083 --> 01:11:04,962 is like, I don't know, it's a little too trad. 1754 01:11:05,083 --> 01:11:06,002 This is the browser. 1755 01:11:06,623 --> 01:11:10,302 Eventually, this should have voice input and output. 1756 01:11:10,982 --> 01:11:12,242 It's sort of all... 1757 01:11:12,242 --> 01:11:13,362 We've seen that. 1758 01:11:13,663 --> 01:11:16,262 The skill was just added to SatBot or Ori 1759 01:11:16,262 --> 01:11:20,223 to be able to speak to us, right? 1760 01:11:20,542 --> 01:11:24,703 And then soon we'll have our ability to speak to it. 1761 01:11:25,002 --> 01:11:27,123 I think the key, and you said this before, DK, 1762 01:11:27,502 --> 01:11:28,723 and Nick, if you're listening, 1763 01:11:29,242 --> 01:11:31,042 I feel very strongly on this insight, 1764 01:11:31,042 --> 01:11:32,723 which, hat tip to DK, 1765 01:11:33,083 --> 01:11:36,762 if you can make Ori customizable, 1766 01:11:36,762 --> 01:11:37,602 like you said with name, 1767 01:11:37,643 --> 01:11:39,762 but actually create your dream friend. 1768 01:11:40,123 --> 01:11:41,183 Like I think you've mentioned before, 1769 01:11:41,183 --> 01:11:43,362 if I could talk to Roy, my dog. 1770 01:11:43,442 --> 01:11:43,563 Yeah. 1771 01:11:43,762 --> 01:11:43,962 Yeah. 1772 01:11:44,882 --> 01:11:47,083 I would abandon every other service forever. 1773 01:11:47,563 --> 01:11:49,442 And Roy can go deal with those other services. 1774 01:11:49,523 --> 01:11:49,882 Absolutely. 1775 01:11:50,242 --> 01:11:50,623 And nothing, 1776 01:11:50,942 --> 01:11:52,602 I don't care how much better your thing is. 1777 01:11:52,723 --> 01:11:54,382 Like I roll with Roy. 1778 01:11:54,583 --> 01:11:54,802 Yeah. 1779 01:11:54,882 --> 01:11:55,842 No matter what. 1780 01:11:56,962 --> 01:11:58,342 That's the attachment level. 1781 01:11:58,422 --> 01:12:00,163 So if someone can make it really easy 1782 01:12:00,163 --> 01:12:02,862 so that your bot becomes your dog, 1783 01:12:03,083 --> 01:12:05,862 or like custom avatar that you create. 1784 01:12:05,982 --> 01:12:07,583 Like if you get an emotional bond there, 1785 01:12:07,922 --> 01:12:10,163 that's, now we're talking, 1786 01:12:10,462 --> 01:12:11,482 it's a Google scale opportunity. 1787 01:12:11,482 --> 01:12:13,322 Yeah, and to be clear, 1788 01:12:13,482 --> 01:12:16,042 I'm not dismissing your open instinct. 1789 01:12:16,262 --> 01:12:18,623 I hope that open can be a part of it 1790 01:12:18,623 --> 01:12:20,002 and I suspect it will be 1791 01:12:20,002 --> 01:12:23,163 just from the way the competitive landscape will play out. 1792 01:12:23,602 --> 01:12:26,742 But I don't think we should race toward open 1793 01:12:26,742 --> 01:12:29,002 if it means we have to compromise UX too much. 1794 01:12:29,143 --> 01:12:29,482 Yeah, I agree. 1795 01:12:29,523 --> 01:12:31,922 I think it's better to focus on UX first. 1796 01:12:32,023 --> 01:12:32,203 Sure. 1797 01:12:32,203 --> 01:12:38,623 Because if you don't, you are just off on the side, you know, claiming victory and nobody's using it. 1798 01:12:38,683 --> 01:12:42,762 You need to make something that's very simple, very accessible, easy UX for everybody. 1799 01:12:42,842 --> 01:12:52,362 And if that means launching a DigitalOcean droplet in the cloud or having a thing that, you know, MDK can just like kind of who cares for now. 1800 01:12:52,683 --> 01:12:57,663 Now, if the team doing it is evil, then you're never going to get out of that. 1801 01:12:57,663 --> 01:12:59,602 but if you can build a good UX, 1802 01:12:59,902 --> 01:13:00,703 you might actually realize 1803 01:13:00,703 --> 01:13:03,982 that the only competitive ability you have 1804 01:13:03,982 --> 01:13:04,802 is to be open. 1805 01:13:05,223 --> 01:13:05,302 Yeah. 1806 01:13:05,583 --> 01:13:05,802 Right? 1807 01:13:05,982 --> 01:13:07,302 And I think that's the goal 1808 01:13:07,302 --> 01:13:08,643 is make the UX great. 1809 01:13:09,102 --> 01:13:12,223 And if you believe that the best way to compete 1810 01:13:12,223 --> 01:13:12,882 is to be open, 1811 01:13:13,183 --> 01:13:14,183 then make it open. 1812 01:13:14,563 --> 01:13:15,462 And make sure you're ready 1813 01:13:15,462 --> 01:13:16,723 for the next tech wave too. 1814 01:13:16,962 --> 01:13:19,083 So there's still a reason 1815 01:13:19,083 --> 01:13:20,143 Zuck bet the farm 1816 01:13:20,143 --> 01:13:22,163 and Apple's bet the farm on their VR stuff. 1817 01:13:22,502 --> 01:13:23,422 You need to be able to like 1818 01:13:23,422 --> 01:13:24,382 make sure your guy 1819 01:13:24,382 --> 01:13:25,762 can like roll onto an avatar. 1820 01:13:26,282 --> 01:13:27,262 So like what I really want 1821 01:13:27,262 --> 01:13:28,322 is like when Roy's saying that. 1822 01:13:28,482 --> 01:13:29,782 Now, this could get so cool. 1823 01:13:29,782 --> 01:13:30,802 You want Dog the Human app, don't you? 1824 01:13:30,902 --> 01:13:31,822 So dystopian. 1825 01:13:32,602 --> 01:13:33,482 Well, you know, 1826 01:13:34,102 --> 01:13:36,342 Mika was the only other one that we played. 1827 01:13:37,083 --> 01:13:41,782 There might be an idea in there as well. 1828 01:13:43,023 --> 01:13:45,163 What is an opportunity that Google or Facebook 1829 01:13:45,163 --> 01:13:46,042 may not allow 1830 01:13:46,042 --> 01:13:48,183 that might quickly capture 1831 01:13:48,183 --> 01:13:49,802 half of the internet as your assistant? 1832 01:13:50,262 --> 01:13:50,882 No idea. 1833 01:13:51,723 --> 01:13:53,922 Anyways, but yeah. 1834 01:13:53,922 --> 01:13:57,163 And does a group chat 10x that experience? 1835 01:13:57,262 --> 01:13:59,262 all right 1836 01:13:59,262 --> 01:14:02,842 just let it be with this dog 1837 01:14:02,842 --> 01:14:03,442 no offense 1838 01:14:03,442 --> 01:14:05,123 so we're talking about like 1839 01:14:05,123 --> 01:14:06,502 developing this relationship 1840 01:14:06,502 --> 01:14:07,382 with AI 1841 01:14:07,382 --> 01:14:08,822 you know 1842 01:14:08,822 --> 01:14:10,862 think about like R2D2 1843 01:14:10,862 --> 01:14:12,322 but there's like the physical 1844 01:14:12,322 --> 01:14:12,862 yeah 1845 01:14:12,862 --> 01:14:14,462 and those robots are coming right 1846 01:14:14,462 --> 01:14:14,683 yeah 1847 01:14:14,683 --> 01:14:15,643 Elon's gonna 1848 01:14:15,643 --> 01:14:16,942 there's gonna be a robot in every 1849 01:14:16,942 --> 01:14:17,882 every home 1850 01:14:17,882 --> 01:14:18,362 yeah 1851 01:14:18,362 --> 01:14:19,643 or per person or whatever right 1852 01:14:19,643 --> 01:14:21,502 we're all gonna have our own R2D2 1853 01:14:21,502 --> 01:14:21,942 yeah 1854 01:14:21,942 --> 01:14:23,623 so will the 1855 01:14:23,623 --> 01:14:24,762 will my 1856 01:14:24,762 --> 01:14:25,523 my Roy 1857 01:14:25,523 --> 01:14:26,762 Ori 1858 01:14:26,762 --> 01:14:28,742 person, or agent, 1859 01:14:28,902 --> 01:14:31,083 will I want that also embodied in my 1860 01:14:31,083 --> 01:14:32,422 person? Will I just have one? 1861 01:14:32,703 --> 01:14:34,102 It's my buddy? You'll have multiple. 1862 01:14:34,262 --> 01:14:36,042 Will I have one or multiple? 1863 01:14:36,382 --> 01:14:39,063 Does it go from the cloud 1864 01:14:39,063 --> 01:14:39,742 to my robot? 1865 01:14:40,742 --> 01:14:42,762 Or my robot is my 1866 01:14:42,762 --> 01:14:44,282 local computer where I get privacy. 1867 01:14:45,023 --> 01:14:45,663 That would be sick. 1868 01:14:46,382 --> 01:14:48,183 I may want multiple 1869 01:14:48,183 --> 01:14:50,902 friends or AI agent 1870 01:14:50,902 --> 01:14:52,762 helpers, but I think I'd prefer to 1871 01:14:52,762 --> 01:14:54,762 interface with one who can dispatch 1872 01:14:54,762 --> 01:14:56,782 things. But then, like, if it's 1873 01:14:56,782 --> 01:14:58,703 my edge computer for security 1874 01:14:58,703 --> 01:15:00,422 and privacy, do I want it walking around 1875 01:15:00,422 --> 01:15:02,723 Earth and it can be stolen, right? Versus 1876 01:15:02,723 --> 01:15:05,023 like having a server in a closet 1877 01:15:05,023 --> 01:15:06,282 that's like bolted down. 1878 01:15:07,502 --> 01:15:08,962 That's why the boring company launched 1879 01:15:08,962 --> 01:15:11,002 a flamethrower, don't you know? Anyone comes at you, 1880 01:15:11,302 --> 01:15:13,322 what could go wrong? 1881 01:15:13,822 --> 01:15:15,342 If it has 1882 01:15:15,342 --> 01:15:17,023 all my data and all my 1883 01:15:17,023 --> 01:15:18,563 secrets, it needs to be 1884 01:15:18,563 --> 01:15:19,322 armed. 1885 01:15:19,322 --> 01:15:19,723 Yeah. 1886 01:15:22,902 --> 01:15:24,723 I'm going to leave that one there. 1887 01:15:24,762 --> 01:15:29,102 But again, it's like, and I have such mixed feelings on this. 1888 01:15:29,183 --> 01:15:32,382 Because the one thing I'm so excited, on the other hand, it's like, I could see this getting super dystopian. 1889 01:15:32,482 --> 01:15:35,242 Like, real quick, you're just like talking to ghosts all day. 1890 01:15:38,742 --> 01:15:41,882 Are we going to talk about the other topics we said we wanted? 1891 01:15:42,023 --> 01:15:43,623 Like, the more boring topics? 1892 01:15:43,922 --> 01:15:45,262 Well, I don't know. We just talk about whatever we want. 1893 01:15:45,422 --> 01:15:45,922 Yeah, exactly. 1894 01:15:47,143 --> 01:15:47,762 Fuck the boring. 1895 01:15:48,143 --> 01:15:49,382 How about one thing on Bitcoin? 1896 01:15:49,382 --> 01:15:50,882 Well, I at least want to spend a minute on it. 1897 01:15:50,962 --> 01:15:53,042 I don't know if we want to spend 12 minutes on it. 1898 01:15:53,042 --> 01:15:53,242 Okay. 1899 01:15:53,242 --> 01:15:53,362 Okay. 1900 01:15:54,563 --> 01:15:58,802 Well, we can also talk about stable coins in the context of all of this. 1901 01:15:58,802 --> 01:16:02,982 So, Penny, come for the memes, stay for the standard ground. 1902 01:16:06,042 --> 01:16:06,782 Nice one, Penny. 1903 01:16:08,422 --> 01:16:11,683 So, there was news from Y Combinator that they're going to now, 1904 01:16:12,602 --> 01:16:16,502 when they pay their start, what do they get, like 500K? 1905 01:16:16,583 --> 01:16:17,402 I think they invest. 1906 01:16:18,143 --> 01:16:22,523 Yeah, they invest, but they receive 500,000 US dollars. 1907 01:16:22,523 --> 01:16:24,942 and they're not going to give them the option 1908 01:16:24,942 --> 01:16:27,002 to receive USDC stablecoin. 1909 01:16:27,583 --> 01:16:30,023 I don't know if it's USDC base or Polygon 1910 01:16:30,023 --> 01:16:33,163 or Ethereum or Solana or Spark 1911 01:16:33,163 --> 01:16:34,922 or whichever platform, Arcade. 1912 01:16:35,802 --> 01:16:37,502 So I saw the headline, but yeah, go ahead. 1913 01:16:37,643 --> 01:16:38,623 And it just made me, like, 1914 01:16:38,862 --> 01:16:43,563 why, if let's say we had a YC startup that we're doing, 1915 01:16:43,802 --> 01:16:44,842 why would we want that? 1916 01:16:45,242 --> 01:16:46,763 Like, what would be a use case for that? 1917 01:16:47,782 --> 01:16:49,763 Like, receiving Bitcoin, 1918 01:16:50,183 --> 01:16:51,542 the use case would be like, 1919 01:16:51,542 --> 01:16:55,002 because we're going to tuck some of our money away in Bitcoin 1920 01:16:55,002 --> 01:16:56,143 and think it's going to go up. 1921 01:16:57,402 --> 01:16:58,203 And then watch it go down. 1922 01:16:59,902 --> 01:17:01,862 That's obviously not the use case. 1923 01:17:02,282 --> 01:17:03,402 Comfort number go up. 1924 01:17:03,402 --> 01:17:05,023 That's obviously not the use case here. 1925 01:17:05,042 --> 01:17:05,462 Go bankrupt. 1926 01:17:05,982 --> 01:17:08,602 So who am I, if I'm a YC startup, 1927 01:17:08,802 --> 01:17:10,583 who am I paying in USDC? 1928 01:17:10,723 --> 01:17:11,822 I don't really understand that. 1929 01:17:11,822 --> 01:17:15,862 I don't claim to understand the thought behind it. 1930 01:17:15,862 --> 01:17:23,342 And, you know, it reminds me a bit when Shazan originally raised money for Lava. 1931 01:17:24,102 --> 01:17:27,362 He was like, yeah, do you want to send me Bitcoin or USDC? 1932 01:17:27,862 --> 01:17:30,583 And I was like, how about just like a bank wire? 1933 01:17:31,263 --> 01:17:32,422 And he was like, oh, we don't have that set up. 1934 01:17:32,462 --> 01:17:38,422 I'm like, dude, you got to set this up because you're going to have to set up, you know, billing and accounts receivable and payments. 1935 01:17:38,422 --> 01:17:44,942 You just have to do commerce as a business in the world today, which, you know, that was what, five or six years ago. 1936 01:17:45,862 --> 01:17:52,842 You have to, I mean, you want to pay a contractor, you want to have your IRS blah, blah, tax stuff issued. 1937 01:17:53,063 --> 01:17:56,242 Like you, I know Max would not do it that way. 1938 01:17:56,482 --> 01:17:57,143 Oh, no. 1939 01:17:59,422 --> 01:18:00,342 In case the auditor won. 1940 01:18:01,402 --> 01:18:05,042 So I think he was of the mind that, well, of course, this is the future. 1941 01:18:05,123 --> 01:18:05,782 Let's just do it. 1942 01:18:05,782 --> 01:18:09,842 And he, I think, you know, was early to that idea. 1943 01:18:09,842 --> 01:18:13,822 but I think he came to the more traditional thing 1944 01:18:13,822 --> 01:18:16,042 as part of how he runs the company today. 1945 01:18:16,683 --> 01:18:19,282 So maybe the idea here is that companies 1946 01:18:19,282 --> 01:18:23,302 will not use the bill.coms and gustos of the world 1947 01:18:23,302 --> 01:18:24,282 that do it the traditional way 1948 01:18:24,282 --> 01:18:26,862 or they'll all upgrade to stablecoin native. 1949 01:18:27,102 --> 01:18:27,962 But what's the value brought? 1950 01:18:29,362 --> 01:18:31,382 I think it's maybe LARPing. 1951 01:18:31,482 --> 01:18:31,802 I don't know. 1952 01:18:32,703 --> 01:18:34,362 And even then, like which stablecoin? 1953 01:18:34,442 --> 01:18:35,123 There's like dozens. 1954 01:18:35,523 --> 01:18:36,042 Yeah, I don't know. 1955 01:18:36,042 --> 01:18:38,042 Oh man, it sounds like WISE's falling off. 1956 01:18:38,042 --> 01:18:42,842 But this parlays into all the stuff we talked about today too, 1957 01:18:42,902 --> 01:18:44,763 because we're Bitcoin proponents, 1958 01:18:45,042 --> 01:18:48,703 we're Bitcoin payment as a currency proponent, 1959 01:18:48,703 --> 01:18:52,602 and it is super permissionless and seamless 1960 01:18:52,602 --> 01:18:55,002 in the experiences we've had. 1961 01:18:55,362 --> 01:18:55,683 Awesome. 1962 01:18:57,282 --> 01:18:59,902 But for all the people in the world 1963 01:18:59,902 --> 01:19:05,862 who aren't currently Bitcoin payment currency maximalists, 1964 01:19:05,862 --> 01:19:10,822 why use this versus stable? 1965 01:19:10,962 --> 01:19:13,063 If so, which stable coins? 1966 01:19:13,143 --> 01:19:15,683 I think one reason is which stable coins? 1967 01:19:15,683 --> 01:19:18,203 Are you using Tempo as your platform 1968 01:19:18,203 --> 01:19:24,223 or the Google Universal Ledger as your platform? 1969 01:19:24,482 --> 01:19:26,382 It's all just maximum enterprise blockchain to me. 1970 01:19:26,623 --> 01:19:28,462 Again, the way I think about it, 1971 01:19:28,482 --> 01:19:29,462 I think you're hitting the nail on the head. 1972 01:19:29,942 --> 01:19:32,742 Every chain and platform is an intranet. 1973 01:19:33,302 --> 01:19:35,763 Every coin is an intranet. 1974 01:19:35,862 --> 01:19:38,083 intranets on intranets 1975 01:19:38,083 --> 01:19:39,263 that don't bridge. 1976 01:19:39,502 --> 01:19:41,123 I know there's a company bridge. 1977 01:19:41,542 --> 01:19:42,203 I don't know, man. 1978 01:19:42,223 --> 01:19:43,102 It seems like a use case. 1979 01:19:43,442 --> 01:19:44,962 I understand people are using them. 1980 01:19:45,042 --> 01:19:46,322 If you are outside of the United States, 1981 01:19:46,382 --> 01:19:47,282 you don't have a dollar bank account. 1982 01:19:47,683 --> 01:19:48,822 All these companies are setting up 1983 01:19:48,822 --> 01:19:50,422 Delaware C-Corps with U.S. bank accounts. 1984 01:19:50,842 --> 01:19:51,782 It just seems... 1985 01:19:51,782 --> 01:19:54,703 I do think Cash App's dollars on Lightning is huge. 1986 01:19:54,902 --> 01:19:55,042 I agree. 1987 01:19:55,042 --> 01:19:56,143 We need to see more of that. 1988 01:19:56,263 --> 01:19:58,563 I'd love to see Venmo support the same thing. 1989 01:19:58,623 --> 01:19:58,942 Exactly. 1990 01:19:59,203 --> 01:20:00,282 Because then Bitcoin and Lightning 1991 01:20:00,282 --> 01:20:02,822 is the backbone of all this. 1992 01:20:02,882 --> 01:20:03,402 100%. 1993 01:20:03,402 --> 01:20:04,002 Internet. 1994 01:20:04,782 --> 01:20:05,563 Unquestionably open. 1995 01:20:05,862 --> 01:20:06,143 Yes. 1996 01:20:06,842 --> 01:20:09,663 And then you also reach, you know, 1997 01:20:09,763 --> 01:20:11,523 a hundred times, a thousand times more people 1998 01:20:11,523 --> 01:20:12,563 where they are today. 1999 01:20:12,802 --> 01:20:13,083 Yes. 2000 01:20:13,322 --> 01:20:17,163 And then allow Bitcoin as the money 2001 01:20:17,163 --> 01:20:18,242 that people are holding their wallets 2002 01:20:18,242 --> 01:20:20,242 just to naturally emerge over time. 2003 01:20:20,242 --> 01:20:21,183 And that can take its time. 2004 01:20:21,183 --> 01:20:23,083 But the network itself, like, 2005 01:20:23,322 --> 01:20:25,602 win today when there's this opportunity. 2006 01:20:26,223 --> 01:20:28,382 So I think there's a very clear example 2007 01:20:28,382 --> 01:20:31,042 that will make this more palpable 2008 01:20:31,042 --> 01:20:33,623 for people that are not like deep in this world. 2009 01:20:33,623 --> 01:20:39,502 um and shout out hat tip to our guy matt belez who said this over and over like one of the powerful 2010 01:20:39,502 --> 01:20:44,782 things that i love with mdk is um or at least in conversations with nick i don't think he's like 2011 01:20:44,782 --> 01:20:49,602 pushed this to the forefront yet but matt has like kind of like floated this idea instead of like 2012 01:20:49,602 --> 01:20:54,102 pushing the hey guys like you know pay with bitcoin pay with lightning like fellow nerds 2013 01:20:54,102 --> 01:21:01,683 hello fellow nerds like um thanks like speaking memes now what he i know it's it really is changing 2014 01:21:01,683 --> 01:21:07,422 in my brain. I can't stop it now. What he is proposing is just like pay with Cash App. 2015 01:21:08,183 --> 01:21:12,922 Now, of course, under the hood, any other Bitcoin wallet, and there's dozens around the world can 2016 01:21:12,922 --> 01:21:18,382 also do this. But the beautiful thing, the experience I've shown people that blows their 2017 01:21:18,382 --> 01:21:25,602 mind, and by the way, notes for Cash App, if you're listening to this, make it so easy to just default 2018 01:21:25,602 --> 01:21:31,302 into buy, I have dollars, buy dollars, sell dollars immediately, immediately send it over 2019 01:21:31,302 --> 01:21:37,623 the lighting network, final settlement, you know, buy fiat again. Like just focusing on, 2020 01:21:37,763 --> 01:21:40,602 we're using, you don't even call it Bitcoin if you want, I mean, probably should so people 2021 01:21:40,602 --> 01:21:46,023 understand a little bit of what's happening, but this magic experience of, oh shit, I send dollars, 2022 01:21:46,023 --> 01:21:50,663 you receive dollars or you receive euros or whatever. And it's just on the back end is this 2023 01:21:50,663 --> 01:21:56,462 free instant settlement network. When I show people, okay, I'm on mean pay, which uses an 2024 01:21:56,462 --> 01:22:01,683 MDK invoice. I'm going to scan this invoice. I literally show people from Cash App and I'm going 2025 01:22:01,683 --> 01:22:04,542 to choose the option when I scan it. But right now it's too complicated. This is what I'm telling 2026 01:22:04,542 --> 01:22:07,643 miles. You have to like choose between Bitcoin and dollars. Like just like make it work on the 2027 01:22:07,643 --> 01:22:14,703 back end. I scan this invoice and I don't have any Bitcoin in there. I'm selling dollars and the 2028 01:22:14,703 --> 01:22:19,982 dollar gets sent and instantly settled. People lose their mind. That is the magic moment where 2029 01:22:19,982 --> 01:22:22,242 like, oh shit, it's dollars. 2030 01:22:22,723 --> 01:22:24,782 In this case, two Bitcoin, but it could be dollars to dollars. 2031 01:22:24,882 --> 01:22:26,282 I don't think people would fully grasp that. 2032 01:22:26,523 --> 01:22:30,703 So does that tie into how YC founders might use Stablecoin? 2033 01:22:30,862 --> 01:22:32,922 Or that's sort of a different topic? 2034 01:22:32,922 --> 01:22:36,063 But my point is, this should replace that. 2035 01:22:36,623 --> 01:22:39,163 If you're using Stablecoins and there's a million different things, 2036 01:22:39,242 --> 01:22:42,402 I just don't see the value unless your bank is the one bridging it, 2037 01:22:42,422 --> 01:22:43,203 in which case, what is it doing? 2038 01:22:43,542 --> 01:22:47,742 What's cool about this is, if it's an international settlement system 2039 01:22:47,742 --> 01:22:48,822 between all the banks, 2040 01:22:49,723 --> 01:22:52,263 okay, then you can move money instantly for free. 2041 01:22:52,602 --> 01:22:53,922 I think you could argue 2042 01:22:53,922 --> 01:22:57,322 if you're a Delaware-incorporated, 2043 01:22:57,502 --> 01:22:58,882 U.S.-based company, 2044 01:22:58,982 --> 01:23:01,802 then you might need all kinds of other services 2045 01:23:01,802 --> 01:23:03,523 to be built around stablecoins. 2046 01:23:03,663 --> 01:23:05,203 Maybe part of the motivation 2047 01:23:05,203 --> 01:23:06,362 is to get those services built. 2048 01:23:06,563 --> 01:23:07,143 Like, what is... 2049 01:23:07,143 --> 01:23:08,123 Why even do... 2050 01:23:08,123 --> 01:23:08,563 Why? 2051 01:23:08,982 --> 01:23:11,143 But why don't banks just do 2052 01:23:11,143 --> 01:23:12,862 the equivalent of dollars on Lightning? 2053 01:23:13,263 --> 01:23:14,862 Like, they just have their traditional dollar... 2054 01:23:14,862 --> 01:23:16,723 They have millions of customers. 2055 01:23:16,723 --> 01:23:19,282 they all have dollar bank accounts, keep that the same. 2056 01:23:19,882 --> 01:23:21,842 And then for those customers, when they have an experience 2057 01:23:21,842 --> 01:23:25,643 where they want to pay and it's over the Bitcoin network 2058 01:23:25,643 --> 01:23:28,242 or the Lightning network, they can easily support that. 2059 01:23:28,643 --> 01:23:29,842 Just like Cash App does. 2060 01:23:31,002 --> 01:23:31,962 No stable coins needed. 2061 01:23:32,583 --> 01:23:34,482 No paying Coinbase. 2062 01:23:35,302 --> 01:23:38,462 Don't let Coinbase or Tether capture all the value 2063 01:23:38,462 --> 01:23:40,982 off the treasuries holding hundreds of billions of dollars a dollar. 2064 01:23:41,123 --> 01:23:42,123 Why do the banks want that? 2065 01:23:42,683 --> 01:23:45,822 I think someone needs to go to every financial institution in bank 2066 01:23:45,822 --> 01:23:47,163 and just do what we're showing here. 2067 01:23:47,263 --> 01:23:47,703 Just be like, 2068 01:23:48,223 --> 01:23:50,163 here's an app someone launched 2069 01:23:50,163 --> 01:23:52,282 from a group chat in 10 seconds. 2070 01:23:52,723 --> 01:23:53,502 Here's Cash App. 2071 01:23:54,143 --> 01:23:55,143 I'm just having dollars. 2072 01:23:55,742 --> 01:23:57,563 I'm sending an instant payment. 2073 01:23:57,782 --> 01:23:58,362 Oh my God. 2074 01:23:59,083 --> 01:23:59,902 I feel like, I mean, 2075 01:24:00,063 --> 01:24:02,422 I know LightSpark has pushed this sum 2076 01:24:02,422 --> 01:24:07,322 trying to sell to traditional financial institutions 2077 01:24:07,322 --> 01:24:10,942 with lightning infrastructure. 2078 01:24:11,563 --> 01:24:12,763 River maybe was, 2079 01:24:12,842 --> 01:24:13,822 but I think it's backed off. 2080 01:24:14,002 --> 01:24:14,563 But there needs, 2081 01:24:14,563 --> 01:24:16,223 I'd like to see a healthy market there. 2082 01:24:16,362 --> 01:24:18,663 Multiple quality companies like them and more 2083 01:24:18,663 --> 01:24:22,282 doing that and just saturate all the traditional banks. 2084 01:24:22,523 --> 01:24:25,102 I don't even see why stablecoins need to exist then. 2085 01:24:25,242 --> 01:24:25,502 I agree. 2086 01:24:25,643 --> 01:24:26,663 I think we're all on that same page. 2087 01:24:26,663 --> 01:24:30,002 But I think that one final topic that's very in mind there. 2088 01:24:30,223 --> 01:24:30,422 Sorry. 2089 01:24:30,683 --> 01:24:31,623 You say we're all on the same, 2090 01:24:31,683 --> 01:24:33,583 but I mean, sure, the three of us are, 2091 01:24:33,703 --> 01:24:36,382 but most of Silicon Valley is all about stablecoins. 2092 01:24:36,442 --> 01:24:38,023 Silicon Valley needs to do a zap from cash, 2093 01:24:38,102 --> 01:24:38,602 half, and dollars. 2094 01:24:39,322 --> 01:24:43,902 But we need to influence our brothers and sisters 2095 01:24:43,902 --> 01:24:45,163 in Silicon Valley. 2096 01:24:45,302 --> 01:24:45,502 Brother. 2097 01:24:46,703 --> 01:24:47,583 Bobby, my guy. 2098 01:24:47,802 --> 01:24:48,342 Bobby, my guy. 2099 01:24:49,342 --> 01:24:50,362 I think if you want... 2100 01:24:50,362 --> 01:24:51,203 Brian, my guy, listen. 2101 01:24:51,382 --> 01:24:52,242 I think if you want 2102 01:24:52,242 --> 01:24:53,482 to see that change, 2103 01:24:53,563 --> 01:24:54,203 the best way 2104 01:24:54,203 --> 01:24:55,163 is to build things 2105 01:24:55,163 --> 01:24:56,083 where Bitcoin payments 2106 01:24:56,083 --> 01:24:56,583 do work 2107 01:24:56,583 --> 01:24:57,862 and grow it really big. 2108 01:24:58,042 --> 01:24:58,322 Don't, you know, 2109 01:24:58,502 --> 01:24:59,282 spending time 2110 01:24:59,282 --> 01:24:59,982 being political 2111 01:24:59,982 --> 01:25:01,223 with like the heads of banks 2112 01:25:01,223 --> 01:25:01,882 is like, fine. 2113 01:25:02,042 --> 01:25:02,442 But they're like, 2114 01:25:03,102 --> 01:25:03,663 okay, cool. 2115 01:25:03,763 --> 01:25:04,382 You've got some people 2116 01:25:04,382 --> 01:25:05,083 doing this thing, 2117 01:25:05,183 --> 01:25:06,123 but show me when you've got 2118 01:25:06,123 --> 01:25:06,523 like, you know, 2119 01:25:06,583 --> 01:25:07,563 millions of dollars a day 2120 01:25:07,563 --> 01:25:08,143 in transactions, 2121 01:25:08,282 --> 01:25:08,742 then we'll talk. 2122 01:25:08,842 --> 01:25:09,742 We'll maybe be interested 2123 01:25:09,742 --> 01:25:10,263 at that point. 2124 01:25:10,683 --> 01:25:11,723 So I think instead 2125 01:25:11,723 --> 01:25:12,602 of starting some sort 2126 01:25:12,602 --> 01:25:13,462 of political campaign 2127 01:25:13,462 --> 01:25:16,763 just build it and make things that are useful in that way. 2128 01:25:16,902 --> 01:25:18,982 And I think Ori is a great example of that. 2129 01:25:19,042 --> 01:25:21,942 And the things we do with Ori to build things that use Bitcoin 2130 01:25:21,942 --> 01:25:24,123 is I think how this kind of thing happens. 2131 01:25:24,202 --> 01:25:24,763 That's the way you win. 2132 01:25:25,143 --> 01:25:26,002 Meme your way to the top. 2133 01:25:26,482 --> 01:25:28,803 So the last story that I want to mention 2134 01:25:28,803 --> 01:25:29,643 because it's super related 2135 01:25:29,643 --> 01:25:31,822 and I think went kind of under the radar, 2136 01:25:31,942 --> 01:25:33,763 but to me it was a really, really big deal. 2137 01:25:33,763 --> 01:25:36,803 I even shared in the GC and you boys didn't comment. 2138 01:25:37,322 --> 01:25:40,342 Maybe because there was like only 13,000 other messages 2139 01:25:40,342 --> 01:25:41,602 that you missed. 2140 01:25:41,602 --> 01:25:44,422 but I saw on Stacker News 2141 01:25:44,422 --> 01:25:47,102 that the last great source of trade 2142 01:25:47,102 --> 01:25:49,542 that Voltage 2143 01:25:49,542 --> 01:25:50,063 nothing burger 2144 01:25:50,063 --> 01:25:51,542 you think it's a nothing burger? 2145 01:25:51,702 --> 01:25:52,803 well I'm guessing what you're going to say 2146 01:25:52,803 --> 01:25:55,322 facilitated a million dollar payment 2147 01:25:55,322 --> 01:25:56,702 between Kraken and some other 2148 01:25:56,702 --> 01:25:57,862 whatever trading institution 2149 01:25:57,862 --> 01:25:58,902 over the Lightning Network 2150 01:25:58,902 --> 01:25:59,683 in one payment 2151 01:25:59,683 --> 01:26:01,242 final settlement in less than a second 2152 01:26:01,242 --> 01:26:02,922 that to me seems like 2153 01:26:02,922 --> 01:26:05,143 the Lightning Network has matured a lot 2154 01:26:05,143 --> 01:26:07,163 it's been able to do that for years 2155 01:26:07,163 --> 01:26:09,123 a million dollar payment at one time? 2156 01:26:09,723 --> 01:26:09,942 sure 2157 01:26:10,862 --> 01:26:13,723 Especially if they had a direct connection, I'm sure. 2158 01:26:14,183 --> 01:26:15,223 So you're not routing it. 2159 01:26:15,282 --> 01:26:16,342 So there's no routing fees. 2160 01:26:16,702 --> 01:26:18,202 Because otherwise it would be uneconomical 2161 01:26:18,202 --> 01:26:21,442 because you can transfer that amount of money on chain much cheaper. 2162 01:26:21,702 --> 01:26:23,782 But if you have a direct connection, just charge no fees. 2163 01:26:24,822 --> 01:26:27,163 So was it just established they set up a channel, 2164 01:26:27,542 --> 01:26:28,163 built enough liquidity, 2165 01:26:28,322 --> 01:26:30,303 and then fired the thing to say that they did it? 2166 01:26:30,382 --> 01:26:31,702 Yeah, I think it was just kind of a... 2167 01:26:31,702 --> 01:26:37,362 But I mean, that's both been theoretically 2168 01:26:37,362 --> 01:26:40,523 and actually possible for years. 2169 01:26:41,083 --> 01:26:43,482 Because especially without the routing, 2170 01:26:44,102 --> 01:26:47,163 it's not a huge technical achievement. 2171 01:26:47,702 --> 01:26:50,023 With the routing, then you run into liquidity issues. 2172 01:26:50,242 --> 01:26:51,842 Like, are you really going to... 2173 01:26:51,842 --> 01:26:52,922 And so maybe the next thing will be with routing, 2174 01:26:52,982 --> 01:26:54,263 but I think this gets to what you're saying, 2175 01:26:54,322 --> 01:26:55,702 which is maybe that's obvious to you. 2176 01:26:56,083 --> 01:26:57,422 But even I didn't realize, 2177 01:26:57,623 --> 01:26:58,523 and I'm pretty deep in this, 2178 01:26:58,623 --> 01:26:59,902 and Nick knows this, 2179 01:26:59,962 --> 01:27:00,882 but not as deep as you guys, 2180 01:27:00,882 --> 01:27:02,362 but know that like, oh shit, 2181 01:27:02,422 --> 01:27:03,663 I didn't realize the network, 2182 01:27:04,202 --> 01:27:06,102 you know, you could already show a payment that big. 2183 01:27:06,183 --> 01:27:07,023 To your point, I guess routing 2184 01:27:07,023 --> 01:27:08,282 would be the next big unlock. 2185 01:27:08,842 --> 01:27:11,322 But to me, that's a huge deal 2186 01:27:11,322 --> 01:27:13,782 because now it's a very clear value proposition. 2187 01:27:13,982 --> 01:27:15,742 One of my first questions I had 2188 01:27:15,742 --> 01:27:18,023 when I saw the Lightning Network a long time ago was, 2189 01:27:18,362 --> 01:27:21,282 oh, shouldn't high-frequency traders love this? 2190 01:27:21,643 --> 01:27:23,303 I can get instant final settlement 2191 01:27:23,303 --> 01:27:26,523 in and out of any venue at the speed of light for free. 2192 01:27:27,442 --> 01:27:29,083 But even most people, 2193 01:27:29,542 --> 01:27:32,683 most people who have spent time building 2194 01:27:32,683 --> 01:27:34,063 and using Lightning Network 2195 01:27:34,063 --> 01:27:36,422 who become a little disillusioned 2196 01:27:36,422 --> 01:27:37,922 because it didn't do exactly what they wanted. 2197 01:27:39,643 --> 01:27:42,263 Almost all of those builders and developers 2198 01:27:42,263 --> 01:27:45,602 still agree that it's a slam dunk use case 2199 01:27:45,602 --> 01:27:49,922 for one institution to send money to another institution. 2200 01:27:50,102 --> 01:27:52,023 And maybe what you need is just frankly... 2201 01:27:52,023 --> 01:27:54,143 And do it in a trust-minimized manner, instant, 2202 01:27:55,042 --> 01:27:57,782 and final settlement, 2203 01:27:57,782 --> 01:28:01,643 and also can handle tons of liquidity. 2204 01:28:02,083 --> 01:28:03,922 So that's why I think this story is not a nothing burger. 2205 01:28:03,922 --> 01:28:06,862 And maybe it's just like we need more of that realization 2206 01:28:06,862 --> 01:28:08,803 for other like financial institutions. 2207 01:28:09,183 --> 01:28:12,223 But like in my mind, any trader or any financial institution, 2208 01:28:12,282 --> 01:28:14,702 when they realize we can do final settlement, 2209 01:28:14,702 --> 01:28:17,223 and like critically, it can be dollars to yen 2210 01:28:17,223 --> 01:28:18,842 or dollars to euros or whatever. 2211 01:28:19,342 --> 01:28:21,942 But we have a payment network that can beat Visa 2212 01:28:21,942 --> 01:28:25,763 at its own game for free and instant. 2213 01:28:25,922 --> 01:28:27,303 Like that's the story to me. 2214 01:28:27,322 --> 01:28:28,002 Like that's huge. 2215 01:28:28,442 --> 01:28:29,242 And like whenever else it's like, 2216 01:28:29,282 --> 01:28:30,442 oh, my stable coins. 2217 01:28:30,822 --> 01:28:33,723 And it's like, dude, your stable coins don't bridge. 2218 01:28:33,723 --> 01:28:35,663 they don't interoperate, they're not instant 2219 01:28:35,663 --> 01:28:37,322 unless they're totally centralized, in which case, 2220 01:28:37,482 --> 01:28:39,303 okay, I've got a MySQL database to sell you. 2221 01:28:39,702 --> 01:28:42,583 This is a decentralized way to do instant final settlement. 2222 01:28:42,962 --> 01:28:45,442 That story has still not hit the mainstream. 2223 01:28:47,042 --> 01:28:50,822 Meanwhile, in Ethereum, they have given up on layer twos. 2224 01:28:51,183 --> 01:28:52,063 Are you serious? 2225 01:28:52,362 --> 01:28:55,583 Yeah, Vitalik says that layer one scales, 2226 01:28:55,882 --> 01:28:58,242 will scale fine, don't need layer twos. 2227 01:28:58,523 --> 01:29:00,442 All the zero-knowledge proof roll-up stuff, 2228 01:29:00,962 --> 01:29:01,782 that's in the past. 2229 01:29:01,782 --> 01:29:03,982 is Ethereum still ultrasound 2230 01:29:03,982 --> 01:29:05,362 don't know 2231 01:29:05,362 --> 01:29:06,183 but that's 2232 01:29:06,183 --> 01:29:07,063 that's the latest 2233 01:29:07,063 --> 01:29:08,763 from the tolerance 2234 01:29:08,763 --> 01:29:10,002 very nice 2235 01:29:10,002 --> 01:29:11,123 thanks for updating us 2236 01:29:11,123 --> 01:29:12,842 we were unaware 2237 01:29:12,842 --> 01:29:15,782 really needed that update 2238 01:29:15,782 --> 01:29:16,542 focus on 2239 01:29:16,542 --> 01:29:18,143 focus on stuff that matters 2240 01:29:18,143 --> 01:29:19,862 in other news 2241 01:29:19,862 --> 01:29:20,362 did you guys hear 2242 01:29:20,362 --> 01:29:21,422 Solana crashed 2243 01:29:21,422 --> 01:29:22,742 no sorry 2244 01:29:22,742 --> 01:29:24,263 that only happened once 2245 01:29:24,263 --> 01:29:24,842 every 10 minutes 2246 01:29:24,842 --> 01:29:25,123 sorry 2247 01:29:25,123 --> 01:29:27,023 oh not the price 2248 01:29:27,023 --> 01:29:27,583 the 2249 01:29:27,583 --> 01:29:29,123 the actual infrastructure 2250 01:29:29,123 --> 01:29:30,002 yeah 2251 01:29:30,002 --> 01:29:30,663 probably both 2252 01:29:30,663 --> 01:29:31,083 I don't know 2253 01:29:31,083 --> 01:29:33,063 Well, just before we wrap it, 2254 01:29:33,183 --> 01:29:34,282 are we moving to wrap it? 2255 01:29:34,482 --> 01:29:35,223 Before we wrap it, 2256 01:29:35,502 --> 01:29:38,202 you did comment on the price crashing. 2257 01:29:39,023 --> 01:29:40,462 And then I think you had shared some... 2258 01:29:40,462 --> 01:29:41,702 It's up 16%, I thought. 2259 01:29:42,442 --> 01:29:43,502 Up? I don't know. 2260 01:29:43,982 --> 01:29:45,702 You shared something, though, about... 2261 01:29:45,702 --> 01:29:48,822 It went from $61,000 to like $70,600. 2262 01:29:49,083 --> 01:29:50,922 That's up 16%. 2263 01:29:50,922 --> 01:29:51,102 Okay. 2264 01:29:51,922 --> 01:29:54,643 Well, everyone can cherry pick their own time. 2265 01:29:54,643 --> 01:29:55,643 I thought there was an explanation about iBit 2266 01:29:55,643 --> 01:29:59,502 that you were sharing about iBit options trading. 2267 01:30:00,102 --> 01:30:02,023 You shared some thread this morning. 2268 01:30:02,083 --> 01:30:02,902 Give us the alpha, Steve. 2269 01:30:03,442 --> 01:30:04,563 Why crash, sir? 2270 01:30:04,922 --> 01:30:05,223 I don't know. 2271 01:30:05,282 --> 01:30:07,502 Dovey1 doesn't think it holds water, so. 2272 01:30:08,083 --> 01:30:08,263 Who? 2273 01:30:09,002 --> 01:30:09,402 Dovey. 2274 01:30:09,862 --> 01:30:10,462 You don't know Dovey? 2275 01:30:10,482 --> 01:30:11,583 Oh, oh, oh, oh, okay. 2276 01:30:11,902 --> 01:30:12,123 Anyway. 2277 01:30:12,502 --> 01:30:13,763 Some crypto VC, right? 2278 01:30:14,242 --> 01:30:14,702 I don't know. 2279 01:30:14,902 --> 01:30:16,902 It's just, I mean, we talked about theories on here. 2280 01:30:17,002 --> 01:30:17,902 There's more theories. 2281 01:30:19,123 --> 01:30:21,143 Unclear if it's true or not. 2282 01:30:21,602 --> 01:30:21,842 Okay. 2283 01:30:22,342 --> 01:30:23,322 I mean, yeah. 2284 01:30:24,922 --> 01:30:28,822 You have to remember, DK is the traitor persona, so he needs to know what's going on. 2285 01:30:28,962 --> 01:30:29,143 Yeah. 2286 01:30:29,502 --> 01:30:31,282 Well, anyway, so, yeah. 2287 01:30:31,542 --> 01:30:35,643 Well, happily, I'm going to say that we concluded this PBJ, 2288 01:30:35,902 --> 01:30:39,523 and I did not do the ad read on behalf of the bot. 2289 01:30:39,822 --> 01:30:41,042 You guys got tricked into it. 2290 01:30:41,063 --> 01:30:42,282 Well, then you got to do it, bro. 2291 01:30:42,583 --> 01:30:44,023 No, we ran out of time. 2292 01:30:44,083 --> 01:30:44,303 Sorry. 2293 01:30:44,563 --> 01:30:44,882 All right. 2294 01:30:45,902 --> 01:30:47,303 You'll have to tune in later then. 2295 01:30:47,382 --> 01:30:47,862 That's fair. 2296 01:30:48,362 --> 01:30:49,002 All right, guys. 2297 01:30:49,263 --> 01:30:49,542 All right. 2298 01:30:49,782 --> 01:30:50,123 Good conversation. 2299 01:30:50,123 --> 01:30:52,702 Bory bot, if you're listening, post it online on the hostess 2300 01:30:52,702 --> 01:30:53,422 so people can buy. 2301 01:30:54,042 --> 01:30:55,202 Have a good weekend, everyone. 2302 01:30:55,202 --> 01:30:56,422 Have a good one. 2303 01:30:56,683 --> 01:30:57,042 Bye-bye. 2304 01:30:59,502 --> 01:31:29,482 Thank you.