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All right, and we are live with another PBJ.

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This is January 16th.

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How are you guys doing?

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We're back.

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Good.

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Good to see you guys.

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Yeah.

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We almost came in.

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We flew by.

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Where's our homie DK?

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I hear he may be coming back soon.

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Next week?

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Is it?

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No, next week?

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Yeah, next week I think I'll be around.

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We'll be in studio next week.

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All right.

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Yeah.

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In the meantime, studio, hold down the fort.

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And shout out to our boy Oshu here today.

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Yeah.

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Doing a great job.

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What's up?

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I noticed where it's 12.05.

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I think we officially started

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almost on time,

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but five minutes late.

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And I was going to propose

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a new thing

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to try to get us started on time.

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What if we create a pot

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for every minute late?

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You have to contribute to the pot.

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So if the live stream

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doesn't start at noon,

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whoever's not sitting down

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owes the pot.

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I like it.

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I think Max will like it the least

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because he'll owe the most.

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And then I think I would...

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I think just last week alone, your pot is the biggest by far.

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That's just cumulative.

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Additional.

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But I should get extra bonus points for my early morning flights in January and December.

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Yeah.

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And then I would.

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That was your decision to go be a crazy Iowa State fan.

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Which is a good decision, but.

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And then, by the way, they lost Tuesday.

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Seriously?

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No, I didn't.

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I just thought we were going to win every game this season.

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Yeah, y'all were on fire.

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Who'd you lose to?

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At Kansas.

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Well, I mean.

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We got blown out, though.

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I mean, it sucked.

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Kansas, Kansas.

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Kansas played like Kansas.

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Yeah.

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As opposed to Kansas losing with Kansas here.

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By the way, Kansas always has a very dark place in my heart.

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2008 year, we had D-Rose.

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She had won national championship.

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Freaking CDR, T-Bag, Kevin Love on the way there.

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Went to OT, right?

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Well, you did.

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In fact, we were up by a lot.

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Missed all of our free throws down the stretch.

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And Mario Chalmers, I'll never forget.

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Yep.

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Get that three.

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I'm sure DK remembers that, too.

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Yeah.

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Remember the overtime game, TK?

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Beautiful.

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Just couldn't remember that.

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Yeah.

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Hey, actually, this is a good idea from Matt.

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So shout out to Matt, who's always in the chat.

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Says the pot should go to the viewers since we suffer.

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That's actually not a bad idea.

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Oh, yeah.

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Yes.

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Good idea.

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Now we need to vibe code the collection tool,

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the tracking and collection tool.

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And I think Matt is a new vibe coder

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as of just a few days ago, I think.

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So Max, this is a payment app.

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It's perfect to kind of sharpen your chops.

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He has some environment issues.

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All right.

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So straight up.

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So we're going to jump into Vibe Coding in just a minute

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because you homies have been working on this community,

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which I still have not seen.

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And I am making the effort.

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I finally was like yesterday.

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I'm like, fuck it.

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I'm going to get off zero.

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I'm going to join this damn community.

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I want to be a part of it.

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I want to be a part of it.

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I'm going to do it.

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And I will say this.

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I'm still excited.

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I got to list like 15 fucking ideas, bro.

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Every morning I got new ideas.

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But the reason that it is challenging,

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And I, you know, I learned to program on Repl.

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Interestingly, in 2018, I was one of their first users.

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In fact, their second engineer was my roommate.

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I love Repl.

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And, but I mean, programming, man, just like the patience.

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Oh, God, the patience.

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Like, it's not my personality.

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Different people got different strengths, different weaknesses.

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Like, just like, oh, fuck this variable environment.

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Or like, you missed a comma.

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And then, you know, but, but the reward was so great.

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I stuck with it because I did the Justin Moonbittle boot camp.

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I shipped some CLI stuff that could interact with Bits' API,

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and I built my little apps because my desire to understand Bitcoin was so strong.

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I really, really, really wanted it.

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And so I suffered through the horrible, horrible pandemic programming for years.

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And then I was like, fuck this.

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That's how you develop patience.

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That's literally, you have a goal.

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You understand what time purpose is, right?

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But you need to have that goal.

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The problem is, to me, it's like there's opportunity costs.

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straight, right? Like I'm working on this amazing essay, which I got to tell you guys about. And

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like, we'll talk more about the GPU marketplace stuff. I think I see something like the biggest

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company opportunity of all time in that direction. And so it's opportunity costs. Like I'm working

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on this great essay thing, or I can go and fucking bang my head against a computer.

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And so when I used to do Replit, I remember every day I would sit there and I would program

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until I couldn't figure something out. I would rage quit. Literally, I don't have patience for

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computers. Rage quit, throw the computer, come back the next day. And then it would click and

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be like, okay, I just took some time away. And literally that was the pattern every day. Rage

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quit, come back, the next day it would click.

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And that sort of happened last night.

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I thought we were finally at the point where you can just give it a prompt.

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I'm still trying to make my meme generator.

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Guys, I've been asking for this for a year.

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Finally, I'm trying to take matters in my own hands,

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get the meme template, post it, get paid.

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But fucking replet!

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And MDK, shout out to Nick, he's going to help me.

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We got the secrets, it was super easy.

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But there's something funky happening. There's always something funky

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happening. So, hopefully,

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by next week, we'll figure out what that is.

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That's my story.

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I love that you got off zero.

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because I think it's really important.

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Actually, I got another friend that I,

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you know, he's actually extremely non-technical,

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never programmed anything.

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And I did a one-hour session with him in Replit

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and actually took an idea that he was excited about.

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And I vibe-coded it for him and got it started.

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So we spent an hour and he was like,

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that actually works?

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He couldn't believe it.

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He was shocked.

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He knows nothing about DNS

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or how to deploy a website or something.

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and he has now a functioning website of his idea.

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Now, I helped get it started,

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but he saw it's unnecessary.

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Like my role in it is totally unnecessary.

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He can do this himself.

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He didn't believe that, but now he does.

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Well, I may still have to come back to you

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or one of the other kind gentlemen in our chat

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to handhold me through that first horrible variable

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of environments that Nick's trying to figure out

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what the fuck's not working within stupid variables.

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It's just the frustration.

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But if you can get me to that point

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where I get that first app done.

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By the way, this is what I was telling Nick in our chat,

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and I'll say this to anyone working on vibe coding.

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It's that magic moment.

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If you can reduce the friction from zero to pain to zero to fun,

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and you can just show something.

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And this is why I think, whether it's going to be from the community,

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which any of you guys are going to talk about,

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or from MDK putting this out, a replet,

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just like, here's like, assume that I'm completely retarded,

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like a five-year-old or whatever.

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I want to just get from zero to something.

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Help me get from zero to anything.

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and I think the floodgates come down.

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Yeah, and I think it's not that hard,

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but I think right now when you see rep,

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it's like, what do you want to do?

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And then it goes through this like

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whole planning phase and design phase

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and then the thing that comes out

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isn't necessarily exactly what you want.

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It's a mind shift switch.

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Well, I think it's both, right?

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Like the planning and learning from you guys.

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Like, for example, when Matt Belez,

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I watched him do the Vibe Code here at Builder

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a few months ago, whatever.

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Like, okay, or maybe it was Max from Lexi.

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Like, someone showed me like,

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you need to like say, here are the docs,

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explicitly look the docs.

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Okay, that was a good tip.

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Like there's a lot of those things you can learn,

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but to me it's a fricking troubleshooting.

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It's like,

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the thing that I hate with programming is when it says error and you're like,

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why is this error working?

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You feed it to LLM and it doesn't give me an error.

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So it's just like troubleshooting.

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Like what is the environment variable I'm missing?

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Like stuff like that.

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Anyways,

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we'll get there.

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A few comments.

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I mean,

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first of all,

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I,

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I,

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I feel you.

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I,

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I,

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I,

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well,

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because I,

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I am going through the same,

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I've gone through the same thing.

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Yeah.

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I'm not that,

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I'm only a couple steps ahead of you.

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Like Matt and DK are like way ahead.

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But I think you realize your 2018 experience

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and even before that with programming,

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it was kind of like death by a thousand cuts.

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You'd have a thousand cuts to get from zero to something.

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Just getting the dev environment set up,

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like pre-replit was like a thousand cuts.

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And then once you had that set up,

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you'd have thousands more cuts

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while you build your software applications.

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And that's why, number one, you have to be patient,

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you have to be a skilled programmer,

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and it takes you a year plus in the past.

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Totally.

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now we are on the cusp of making it exactly what you want.

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There's still, you know, when I first,

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I talked about my MDK experience,

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I think it was last week or recently on the show.

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And yeah, there were a couple hiccups I had to get through.

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They weren't even MDK necessarily.

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It was more like the Repl.it agent using MDK.

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And that's probably what this is.

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But you know, I had, you saw my questions in that chat group.

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I had questions and had to sort of, quote,

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00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:08,160
debug it, figure it out.

268
00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,520
But debugging and vibe coding is like

269
00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,680
very different experience than hand coding.

270
00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,500
So I encourage you to keep at it

271
00:08:16,500 --> 00:08:18,620
because what we can observe with DK

272
00:08:18,620 --> 00:08:20,360
and Matt Belez and other people we've seen,

273
00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,140
they've leveled up their skills.

274
00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:27,000
And we'll talk about some recent applications

275
00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:27,900
they've been working on

276
00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:31,820
and just I'm in awe of the iteration cycles

277
00:08:31,820 --> 00:08:33,920
that they're going through.

278
00:08:34,540 --> 00:08:37,000
I basically used to say,

279
00:08:37,140 --> 00:08:38,880
here's a bug, here's a problem in chat.

280
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:44,580
Right. And like before I can even type the next sentence, it's like, okay, push to push change,

281
00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:51,000
check it out. Fixed. Yeah. Added. It's like, it's, it's unbelievable. So the inspiration is there.

282
00:08:51,100 --> 00:08:54,980
I would say it's building for me, right? Like it's still, to be honest, like, I mean, like I do have

283
00:08:54,980 --> 00:09:00,320
ideas around this. I would say the inspiration is still like, obviously I, in 2017, 18, really

284
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,560
wanted to understand Bitcoin. Like you can ask my friends back in those days. I didn't know anything.

285
00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:05,660
I was sleeping on a floor.

286
00:09:06,060 --> 00:09:07,480
All I owned was mastering Bitcoin

287
00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,260
from Andrea Sensenopoulos.

288
00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:09,960
I was upset.

289
00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:11,040
You remember, that's when I met you.

290
00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,000
I'm not at that level of vibe coding yet.

291
00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:14,880
But what I will say is,

292
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:16,040
I think DK,

293
00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,100
so eventually the product will hopefully get there

294
00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:19,320
and AI models will get there.

295
00:09:19,420 --> 00:09:20,560
So like product solves all of it.

296
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,520
But like, I cannot say enough

297
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,280
whether whoever in this needs to be,

298
00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:25,860
Replit, MDK, the community,

299
00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:27,480
like if you just offer,

300
00:09:27,660 --> 00:09:28,200
if there's a way,

301
00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:29,080
and I'm going to hit you up, DK,

302
00:09:29,180 --> 00:09:29,920
but like specifically,

303
00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:30,680
if there's a way it's like,

304
00:09:30,740 --> 00:09:32,080
hey man, I really want this to work.

305
00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:33,240
Just fucking frustrating.

306
00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,440
like click here to schedule like a 15-minute session

307
00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,840
or just do like live like office hours every week.

308
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,160
I think we're still in the each one teach one phase.

309
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:42,360
And yeah, I agree.

310
00:09:42,620 --> 00:09:44,260
Paravibing and learning through that.

311
00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,880
And I've talked to a lot of people

312
00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:48,080
who have gotten their start

313
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,180
kind of getting something up of a prototype

314
00:09:50,180 --> 00:09:51,320
where they become convinced,

315
00:09:51,540 --> 00:09:53,340
like they're not really from the software world,

316
00:09:53,380 --> 00:09:54,180
but they become convinced

317
00:09:54,180 --> 00:09:56,160
that this thing is actually a good idea and they like it.

318
00:09:56,380 --> 00:09:57,720
And then they go off and hire somebody

319
00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,600
to basically like tutor them in vibe coding.

320
00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,220
And I think you mentioned something like this

321
00:10:02,220 --> 00:10:03,900
in our chat,

322
00:10:04,180 --> 00:10:05,240
which to me seems like

323
00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,020
it's a real business opportunity.

324
00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:08,820
It's like, get something started,

325
00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:10,800
but then actually now that I feel

326
00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:11,560
enough confidence

327
00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:12,740
that it's kind of in the right direction,

328
00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,000
hire like a professional vibe coder

329
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,300
to like really grind through the details.

330
00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:17,900
Yes.

331
00:10:18,140 --> 00:10:19,460
And that should be a worldwide market,

332
00:10:19,580 --> 00:10:20,640
should be payable in Bitcoin

333
00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:21,880
or whatever people want to accept.

334
00:10:22,140 --> 00:10:23,580
And we've talked about this idea

335
00:10:23,580 --> 00:10:24,540
on the show for years

336
00:10:24,540 --> 00:10:25,480
and it's actually related, I think,

337
00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:26,440
to the compute marketplace stuff

338
00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:27,280
we talk about later as well,

339
00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:28,880
but like I will be your first customer.

340
00:10:28,980 --> 00:10:30,220
Like if you're a really good vibe coder,

341
00:10:30,420 --> 00:10:31,180
I swear to you.

342
00:10:31,460 --> 00:10:31,780
Huh?

343
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:32,120
Yeah.

344
00:10:32,220 --> 00:10:39,580
that yeah exactly i i've got like 15 fucking good ideas and well let me just i'll never have the

345
00:10:39,580 --> 00:10:44,460
patience to how to bootstrap that marketplace yes is don't build the marketplace i don't have the

346
00:10:44,460 --> 00:10:49,500
idea you have the money you are i did it last year and also by the way i gave a hundred thousand

347
00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:54,640
side of the marketplace you don't have to build the whole marketplace out you're the demand side

348
00:10:54,640 --> 00:11:00,320
and now go find one supplier and see how you guys work together and then the next demand that comes

349
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:01,540
be like, hey, I've got a supplier.

350
00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:03,420
And then once you've got too much activity to manage,

351
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:04,260
then go build the marketplace.

352
00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,300
I think I'm looking at the supplier on the screen right now.

353
00:11:06,420 --> 00:11:08,760
Well, more broadly though,

354
00:11:08,980 --> 00:11:10,460
what if they're like a community?

355
00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:11,100
I know.

356
00:11:11,100 --> 00:11:12,860
A curated community.

357
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:13,380
If only.

358
00:11:14,140 --> 00:11:16,940
Okay, we're going to do a first on PBJ.

359
00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:17,500
Let's do it.

360
00:11:17,780 --> 00:11:20,460
So people have been listening to us for 50 plus episodes.

361
00:11:21,100 --> 00:11:21,800
Of course they have.

362
00:11:21,860 --> 00:11:22,520
Every single one.

363
00:11:22,660 --> 00:11:22,920
Never missed.

364
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:23,320
Every one.

365
00:11:23,500 --> 00:11:24,260
Some people have.

366
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:27,000
We're going to do something new.

367
00:11:27,220 --> 00:11:28,920
I don't even think you know what we're going to do right now.

368
00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:30,500
Well, I mean, I guess all little.

369
00:11:30,780 --> 00:11:32,800
Well, you know, we're going to talk about the title.

370
00:11:33,060 --> 00:11:36,140
I'm in the dark on this one, guys, because I can't get my fucking environment set up.

371
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,960
By the way, the bar for this is higher than just setting up your.

372
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,420
I promise you, my ideas are fucking gold.

373
00:11:46,540 --> 00:11:47,600
I ain't got no question.

374
00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:48,660
You know what I'm saying?

375
00:11:48,700 --> 00:11:49,640
My ideas are going to get.

376
00:11:49,860 --> 00:11:49,980
Yeah.

377
00:11:50,260 --> 00:11:50,620
No.

378
00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,800
So everyone's like antsy to hear what is our first.

379
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,820
We're going to we're launching this community live on the show.

380
00:11:57,900 --> 00:11:58,260
Let's go.

381
00:11:58,260 --> 00:12:02,080
We were going to announce it on Twitter earlier this morning,

382
00:12:02,180 --> 00:12:03,800
and they're like, let's do it on the show.

383
00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:04,260
All right.

384
00:12:04,460 --> 00:12:06,680
So hopefully, okay, Matt Belez is listening.

385
00:12:06,680 --> 00:12:07,680
Live announce, live announce.

386
00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,060
And we'll give a lot of love to Matt Belez because this is his baby.

387
00:12:13,180 --> 00:12:14,820
He's been up since 4 a.m. getting this shit ready.

388
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,240
So the Spiral team can go ahead and tweet this out from,

389
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:20,160
I think there's some communication,

390
00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,920
but we're announcing a new community called Flint.

391
00:12:23,260 --> 00:12:23,640
All right.

392
00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:24,140
Right?

393
00:12:25,420 --> 00:12:26,440
Based in Michigan?

394
00:12:28,260 --> 00:12:29,980
we'll have to think of that

395
00:12:29,980 --> 00:12:31,740
we'll have to think about that angle

396
00:12:31,740 --> 00:12:34,040
it's called Flint and

397
00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,080
to no one's surprise it's about vibe coding

398
00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:37,940
it's kind of a culmination of like

399
00:12:37,940 --> 00:12:40,420
what we've been chatting about quite a bit in the show

400
00:12:40,420 --> 00:12:42,160
since February

401
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,460
March almost a year

402
00:12:44,460 --> 00:12:46,140
really since forever since the early days

403
00:12:46,140 --> 00:12:48,180
basically the whole show we've talked

404
00:12:48,180 --> 00:12:48,540
you know

405
00:12:48,540 --> 00:12:51,960
I'm sure we could run an AI engine and it would tell us

406
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,040
what percentage of the time speaking

407
00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,140
but I'd say like 15-20% of the time

408
00:12:56,140 --> 00:12:57,160
at least has been on this

409
00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,380
and we've talked about some of the cool apps

410
00:13:01,380 --> 00:13:03,920
that Matt Belez has built and DK has built.

411
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:06,960
I'm still a bit of a straggler.

412
00:13:07,260 --> 00:13:09,520
I have high aspirations though and so does Max.

413
00:13:10,780 --> 00:13:14,120
But what we've learned is that like,

414
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:15,560
yeah, anyone can do this.

415
00:13:15,700 --> 00:13:18,300
So it's really just like develop the inspiration

416
00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:19,980
and committing the time.

417
00:13:19,980 --> 00:13:24,340
And so we hope, one hope with this community

418
00:13:24,340 --> 00:13:26,620
is like curate a group of people

419
00:13:26,620 --> 00:13:27,640
who can help each other.

420
00:13:27,820 --> 00:13:28,060
Yes.

421
00:13:28,260 --> 00:13:29,220
They can give each other feedback,

422
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:30,260
test out their apps,

423
00:13:30,380 --> 00:13:32,460
encourage with positive support.

424
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:34,060
Critical support too,

425
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:34,720
but in a very, you know,

426
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:36,380
very loving, loving way.

427
00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:37,960
Your shit sucks.

428
00:13:38,020 --> 00:13:39,800
And then also gain inspiration.

429
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:40,380
Like I see,

430
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:41,960
so you're Mr. Idea, right?

431
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:43,520
So you'll be building something

432
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:44,520
and I'm like, that's great.

433
00:13:44,580 --> 00:13:46,220
And it'll help me ideate

434
00:13:46,220 --> 00:13:47,480
and think of new things to build.

435
00:13:47,660 --> 00:13:48,100
100%.

436
00:13:48,100 --> 00:13:50,620
So it's called Flint.

437
00:13:52,220 --> 00:13:53,500
It will be,

438
00:13:53,620 --> 00:13:54,380
it's a curative group.

439
00:13:54,460 --> 00:13:56,140
So there'll be an application process

440
00:13:56,620 --> 00:13:57,620
People can sign up.

441
00:13:59,060 --> 00:14:00,640
We're going to start small.

442
00:14:00,980 --> 00:14:02,920
We want to set a high-quality bar.

443
00:14:04,220 --> 00:14:06,480
And Matt and DK already have produced apps

444
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,380
that are a pretty high bar.

445
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,420
I'd say these apps are not world-changing apps,

446
00:14:12,580 --> 00:14:14,860
but they're simple.

447
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,140
They're simple and focused, but they're polished.

448
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,240
And we'll show a couple.

449
00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:22,680
One which has not been announced or revealed

450
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,260
that DK has worked on, and I think it's super cool.

451
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:26,540
And actually, Max will like it.

452
00:14:26,620 --> 00:14:28,100
I hope Mika is going to make an appearance.

453
00:14:28,340 --> 00:14:29,420
No, it's not Mika.

454
00:14:29,980 --> 00:14:32,060
Because I beg to differ about world-changing apps.

455
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:33,160
This is the...

456
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,160
If ever there was a world-changing app that needs a...

457
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:36,100
The one we're announcing...

458
00:14:36,100 --> 00:14:39,100
It's a G-rated app.

459
00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:40,740
This is a G-rated app.

460
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:42,420
It's a thinking Mika.

461
00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,320
In fact, we'll have to think about,

462
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,860
are we going to have ratings for parental ratings on our apps?

463
00:14:49,020 --> 00:14:50,760
My other app that you know I've been working on

464
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,340
is not quite as G-rated.

465
00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:54,040
it's not Mika

466
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:55,980
but it's also

467
00:14:55,980 --> 00:14:57,920
it's maybe not as family friendly as

468
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,060
the one we're talking about on the show

469
00:15:00,060 --> 00:15:01,900
is I would give it a G rating

470
00:15:01,900 --> 00:15:03,580
we can also have some Nostra badges

471
00:15:03,580 --> 00:15:06,780
so for whenever DK drops an ad you can have the NC-17

472
00:15:06,780 --> 00:15:08,720
if you guys remember that

473
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,460
well let's go

474
00:15:11,460 --> 00:15:14,000
Ashu do you want to go ahead and

475
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,600
show the website

476
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,060
so we're not going to spend too much time

477
00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:20,180
showing the website but for those watching the show

478
00:15:20,180 --> 00:15:21,040
instead of listening

479
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,820
will walk you through what this is about.

480
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,120
It looks really nice, by the way.

481
00:15:25,140 --> 00:15:26,220
It's flint.dev.

482
00:15:26,340 --> 00:15:30,000
F-L-I-N-T-S dot dev is the website.

483
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,580
And yeah, as you can,

484
00:15:35,300 --> 00:15:36,980
I mean, I think the branding is pretty obvious.

485
00:15:36,980 --> 00:15:38,860
Like with this community,

486
00:15:39,180 --> 00:15:40,880
you're at the beginning of a journey

487
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:41,760
building applications.

488
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:43,220
It's all about building applications.

489
00:15:43,620 --> 00:15:44,680
And it's a nice subtle touch.

490
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,840
Like the art is like black and white pen

491
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,500
with orange sparks.

492
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:49,780
So really nice aesthetics.

493
00:15:49,780 --> 00:16:11,420
Yeah, we also, I mean, you know, this is the Presidio Bitcoin Jam. People that listen know that we talk about Bitcoin a lot. We care about Bitcoin a lot. But also, they know this show and what MaxDK and myself represent and care about is more than just Bitcoin. We care about AI. We care about building really compelling applications, some of which might incorporate Bitcoin, others might not.

494
00:16:11,420 --> 00:16:15,680
And that's also inherent in Flint.

495
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:21,760
And we've been very intentional about the messaging and copy.

496
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,540
Like, we don't hit you over the head with Bitcoin.

497
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,120
We want people, just like at Presidio Bitcoin,

498
00:16:29,980 --> 00:16:31,360
and just like in the show what we talk about,

499
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,140
we want people who would not identify as Bitcoiners to participate.

500
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,220
Like, we've created the Builder Meetup, monthly meetup here.

501
00:16:39,220 --> 00:16:43,360
We invite and welcome and want people who would not identify as a Bitcoiner to come.

502
00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:45,140
They're just interested in building compelling apps.

503
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,400
It's the same way with the Flint community.

504
00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:58,100
Before I go on, too, with navigating through this website, it's launching from Spiral, which is the org I run.

505
00:16:58,940 --> 00:17:04,220
And Matt Belez, who's on the Spiral team, he's the man behind Flint.

506
00:17:04,220 --> 00:17:07,940
He had the conception of it.

507
00:17:07,940 --> 00:17:10,500
he's built this. We'll talk about actually

508
00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:12,020
this website too in Vivecoding.

509
00:17:13,780 --> 00:17:14,720
Conceived the idea,

510
00:17:14,860 --> 00:17:16,440
executed an idea, and really drove it.

511
00:17:17,020 --> 00:17:18,400
DK and I have been helping out,

512
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,460
and DK's done some compelling

513
00:17:20,460 --> 00:17:22,560
apps that are part of it, but shout out to Matt.

514
00:17:23,380 --> 00:17:24,720
Why is Spiral doing this?

515
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:26,820
Spiral, our mission

516
00:17:26,820 --> 00:17:28,820
is about making Bitcoin everyday money,

517
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:29,680
everyday currency.

518
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,460
One thing we realized, we can build tools

519
00:17:32,460 --> 00:17:34,240
like Lightning Development Kit and Bitcoin,

520
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,440
BDK, and these different tools

521
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,540
and protocols. That's all very important

522
00:17:38,540 --> 00:17:40,200
foundational work, but

523
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,300
you still need demand

524
00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:44,000
for Bitcoin payments.

525
00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:46,560
And so we've talked about in the show

526
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,520
a few months ago, the Bitcoin merchant community.

527
00:17:48,620 --> 00:17:50,540
Well, that's an initiative from Spiral to help

528
00:17:50,540 --> 00:17:52,620
catalyze retail payments.

529
00:17:53,420 --> 00:17:54,500
This is an effort

530
00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:56,940
by Spiral to catalyze

531
00:17:56,940 --> 00:17:58,420
payments from

532
00:17:58,420 --> 00:17:59,440
new types of applications.

533
00:17:59,440 --> 00:17:59,880
I love it.

534
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,000
So that's why we think it makes a lot of sense

535
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,260
for this to come from Spiral.

536
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:19,720
So we're not going to walk through every word on this website, but Asha, if you can guide us down to Firewood, this will show the gallery of apps.

537
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,980
Basically, the concept here, you have to apply.

538
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:31,900
Once you're accepted, you can join a private Discord, and that's where we will help each other, support each other, and share ideas and information.

539
00:18:31,900 --> 00:18:40,280
Within that private community, there's also a members-only website or portion of this website as well.

540
00:18:40,540 --> 00:18:43,360
There's a Kindling section, which is like very early apps.

541
00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:49,060
So like the kind of apps you and I might build, Max, could be published there.

542
00:18:49,180 --> 00:18:50,520
Well, I slam myself to it.

543
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:51,800
If I get beyond the environment.

544
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,900
So any member can publish.

545
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,460
There's a low bar to get into Kindling.

546
00:18:57,460 --> 00:19:00,680
and we're seeking feedback

547
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,520
and it's alpha testing.

548
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:04,060
Then once,

549
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:06,480
and then other community members

550
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:07,300
can star,

551
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:08,260
they kind of vote,

552
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:09,520
but it's like sort of star,

553
00:19:09,660 --> 00:19:10,260
like a thumbs up,

554
00:19:10,340 --> 00:19:11,500
like we like this.

555
00:19:12,060 --> 00:19:14,360
This is ready to go public.

556
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:15,760
It's a signal.

557
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:16,440
And so,

558
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:17,080
and then,

559
00:19:17,220 --> 00:19:18,100
you know,

560
00:19:18,140 --> 00:19:19,160
if there's enough support

561
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:20,360
and if the author

562
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:21,240
of the application

563
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,300
wants it to go public,

564
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:24,420
then it gets published

565
00:19:24,420 --> 00:19:25,120
to Firewood.

566
00:19:25,220 --> 00:19:26,000
So you can go ahead

567
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:26,760
and click on

568
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:27,840
view firewood please

569
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:29,280
and

570
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,440
let's make sure we're

571
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:32,240
sharing this

572
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:32,920
the shed

573
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,120
that's what you were talking about

574
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:34,580
we can't see

575
00:19:34,580 --> 00:19:35,860
DK can you see the firewood

576
00:19:35,860 --> 00:19:37,460
I can see the firewood

577
00:19:37,460 --> 00:19:38,220
I can see

578
00:19:38,220 --> 00:19:40,740
two and a half apps

579
00:19:40,740 --> 00:19:41,200
okay

580
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:42,060
cool

581
00:19:42,060 --> 00:19:43,300
yeah scroll down a little bit

582
00:19:43,300 --> 00:19:43,480
yeah

583
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,680
so these are the three apps

584
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,220
that we feel have met

585
00:19:47,220 --> 00:19:48,180
the bar so far

586
00:19:48,180 --> 00:19:48,560
nice

587
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,060
Impressionista

588
00:19:50,060 --> 00:19:51,780
and Bitcoin Lockbox

589
00:19:51,780 --> 00:19:52,660
have been

590
00:19:52,660 --> 00:19:53,640
public

591
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:54,880
they've been public

592
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:55,740
we talked about

593
00:19:55,740 --> 00:19:56,680
at least the last one

594
00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:57,480
on the show before.

595
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:03,280
The shed is just being revealed right now.

596
00:20:04,980 --> 00:20:08,200
Asha, can you click on the shed and share that screen?

597
00:20:08,340 --> 00:20:10,380
And then I'm going to turn it over because it's DK's baby.

598
00:20:11,380 --> 00:20:12,560
Tell us what this is.

599
00:20:13,620 --> 00:20:13,800
Yeah.

600
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:15,420
All right.

601
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,720
So we're looking at a screenshot of the shed.

602
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:24,580
The shed is a web application that I made starting maybe about a month ago.

603
00:20:24,580 --> 00:20:27,260
and I've just been iterating on it daily.

604
00:20:27,260 --> 00:20:30,780
So I'm kind of grew up playing classical piano

605
00:20:30,780 --> 00:20:32,600
and kind of reading music.

606
00:20:32,740 --> 00:20:35,100
And I also got into jazz,

607
00:20:35,220 --> 00:20:37,060
but jazz is kind of this whole other world

608
00:20:37,060 --> 00:20:38,860
where it's not about reading music

609
00:20:38,860 --> 00:20:40,660
and it's about like understanding

610
00:20:40,660 --> 00:20:44,940
a lot more details of chords and extensions

611
00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:48,500
and alterations and various kind of jazz scales and stuff.

612
00:20:48,820 --> 00:20:50,780
And I've always known it in my head,

613
00:20:50,860 --> 00:20:53,840
but I've never had it in my muscle memory very well.

614
00:20:53,840 --> 00:21:05,040
So I wanted to build an application that helps me use what I learned is possible now is WebMIDI is a MIDI format that is available in like Chrome.

615
00:21:05,260 --> 00:21:10,620
It's not supported by Safari, but in Chrome and several other browsers where you can actually connect your physical.

616
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:16,200
I have a physical digital piano that I connect to my computer via USB.

617
00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:21,580
And then I open up this app and I just do the MIDI connections at the top, you can see.

618
00:21:21,580 --> 00:21:23,920
and then I have all of these practice modes.

619
00:21:24,340 --> 00:21:25,580
And so a simple practice mode,

620
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,700
it's not even super jazz oriented,

621
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:28,360
but just intervals.

622
00:21:29,060 --> 00:21:31,680
So I was listening to a YouTuber

623
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,540
who was doing some jazz instruction

624
00:21:33,540 --> 00:21:35,580
and he's like, here's a bunch of chords

625
00:21:35,580 --> 00:21:36,900
you should be able to get to,

626
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:39,860
if I prompt you with a chord,

627
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,400
you should be able to get the answer within two seconds.

628
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,600
And I said, oh, that would actually be a fun little game.

629
00:21:43,980 --> 00:21:45,300
Like prompt me with something

630
00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:46,840
and see if I can get the answer in two seconds

631
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:48,520
or how long does it take me to get there?

632
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,460
And can I improve my timing over time?

633
00:21:51,580 --> 00:21:56,080
so um so intervals is like a simple one if i were connected right now with midi keyboard

634
00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:02,280
um i could click start on the there's a little start game just below uh what we can see in the

635
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:07,760
screenshot and um and it would give me a three two one countdown oh okay sorry i didn't know we have

636
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,540
the actual application up not just a screenshot but but we don't have web midi connected so don't

637
00:22:11,540 --> 00:22:16,080
don't worry too much but it would start the game and um and then it would prompt me and it would

638
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,660
say, hey, play a major seventh over G or something.

639
00:22:21,220 --> 00:22:23,420
And then I have to play that and it tells me how long it took.

640
00:22:23,740 --> 00:22:25,660
So was it under two seconds?

641
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,620
Was it 3.4, 5.7?

642
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:34,940
And then it collects up all of my performance of those skills within, I think I have it

643
00:22:34,940 --> 00:22:36,820
on 12 rounds as the default for this game.

644
00:22:37,060 --> 00:22:38,620
Those are all configurable too.

645
00:22:39,260 --> 00:22:44,660
And then it gives you kind of a performance, almost like, think of it as my high score

646
00:22:44,660 --> 00:22:45,480
on the game today.

647
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:51,500
And so I can keep playing and keep watching how my average timing is improving, hopefully.

648
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,200
And it also measures accuracy.

649
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:54,640
So is my accuracy improving?

650
00:22:54,740 --> 00:23:02,180
Is my ability to get these things quickly responded to with the appropriate interval or chord or whatever?

651
00:23:02,420 --> 00:23:03,740
Are those happening very quickly?

652
00:23:03,740 --> 00:23:04,780
And I can just watch it.

653
00:23:04,820 --> 00:23:12,460
And I've watched it go from some of these things would take me five seconds weeks ago because I'm kind of trying to think about how the theory maps to my fingering.

654
00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:16,540
and and now I can actually get you know basically all of them under two seconds

655
00:23:16,540 --> 00:23:20,680
because I literally I've been living in this thing I must have used I think I

656
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:32,170
built the app along the way while I was using it and I think I spent you know at this point 30 hours using the app because I actually am like patient zero user of this app I really care about it and

657
00:23:32,170 --> 00:23:38,130
want to use it for myself. But, you know, I spent a lot of time, so I figured, okay, this is a,

658
00:23:38,130 --> 00:23:44,450
you know, a good one that we can sort of use as a part of the showcase for Flint. So that's what

659
00:23:44,450 --> 00:23:49,650
you got. And I think it's only at the beginning, really. So to me, I could see taking a whole

660
00:23:49,650 --> 00:23:55,470
path of further building on this right now this is just a javascript front end but i could imagine

661
00:23:55,470 --> 00:24:03,010
having like a server side component so that um so that i could store my performances and maybe even

662
00:24:03,010 --> 00:24:07,510
compete against other people who are trying to do those same performances and see how

663
00:24:07,510 --> 00:24:11,910
how they're progressing and i'm progressing so it feels a little bit like maybe strava for piano

664
00:24:11,910 --> 00:24:16,630
in a sense like you're sort of recording your runs and seeing segments and seeing how you

665
00:24:16,630 --> 00:24:21,390
perform over time and then seeing how it compares to other people you know so i think there's sort of

666
00:24:21,390 --> 00:24:27,230
a a long roadmap pretty fun that i have in mind of things i want to do with this uh but this is kind

667
00:24:27,230 --> 00:24:33,950
of very i'd say probably one of the more extensive projects that i've built so far but it's still

668
00:24:33,950 --> 00:24:37,870
only at its infancy and that it's still only just you know you can pull it right off it's served off

669
00:24:37,870 --> 00:24:41,930
of github and we've got the links um if you want to try it we'd love to hear if you have feedback

670
00:24:41,930 --> 00:24:45,970
and requests. But it's just a website served off of GitHub pages.

671
00:24:46,510 --> 00:24:50,150
It doesn't even have a back end yet, but it's still super useful to me. So I thought

672
00:24:50,150 --> 00:24:53,970
let's package it up and put it as part of this community because it's all the ethos of

673
00:24:53,970 --> 00:24:58,110
what we're doing in the community too. I think it's awesome and I happen to have

674
00:24:58,110 --> 00:25:02,230
a MIDI keyboard. So I don't know how to play

675
00:25:02,230 --> 00:25:06,290
piano, but I'm like, I'll test it out. And it worked like a charm. It worked right out of the

676
00:25:06,290 --> 00:25:10,450
box. And I wasn't able to do the exercises because I don't know how to play piano

677
00:25:10,450 --> 00:25:12,690
and it's fairly advanced.

678
00:25:13,270 --> 00:25:15,390
But once you're actually using it, it lights up.

679
00:25:15,470 --> 00:25:17,130
And I mean, it's kind of what you'd expect.

680
00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:18,790
It's really incredible.

681
00:25:19,170 --> 00:25:21,030
I have two thoughts that have jumped to mind immediately.

682
00:25:21,190 --> 00:25:25,030
Number one, I kind of feel like I know we've talked about it a lot on the show,

683
00:25:25,090 --> 00:25:27,050
but it's one thing to understand something intellectually.

684
00:25:27,170 --> 00:25:31,770
Another thing viscerally, this is the future in the sense that everyone,

685
00:25:32,570 --> 00:25:34,210
and again, something I always come back to,

686
00:25:34,330 --> 00:25:36,210
we haven't even seen the gigawatt cluster runs.

687
00:25:36,690 --> 00:25:38,830
This is what we're doing with what we have today.

688
00:25:38,950 --> 00:25:40,230
This is the worst day I will ever be.

689
00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:46,170
Like everyone is going to be able to make their own custom apps.

690
00:25:46,290 --> 00:25:47,350
That's crazy.

691
00:25:47,630 --> 00:25:47,730
Yep.

692
00:25:48,130 --> 00:25:49,970
Real quick, Asha, I think we can get rid of the,

693
00:25:50,150 --> 00:25:53,110
or we can go back to just staring at our three faces.

694
00:25:53,770 --> 00:25:53,950
Yep.

695
00:25:54,090 --> 00:25:56,470
And by the way, I'm going to point out one thing on this

696
00:25:56,470 --> 00:26:00,270
that I'll reference later is you see where the orange buttons are.

697
00:26:00,330 --> 00:26:01,110
It says one intervals.

698
00:26:01,330 --> 00:26:01,590
Thank you.

699
00:26:01,650 --> 00:26:04,390
That's a whole collection of like games I call them

700
00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:06,410
or practice modes that I put together.

701
00:26:06,410 --> 00:26:11,850
but there's infinite number of practice modes in the world that somebody could want to build

702
00:26:11,850 --> 00:26:16,810
and you know whatever you're working on whatever level of skill you're at maybe you're just trying

703
00:26:16,810 --> 00:26:22,290
to learn basic scales or middle c or whatever so you could imagine a version of this thing

704
00:26:22,290 --> 00:26:27,390
that actually uses an llm to expand itself because that's how i build the practice modes is with an

705
00:26:27,390 --> 00:26:34,210
llm so the app itself could have kind of a chat or llm you know co-pilot or kind of collaborator

706
00:26:34,210 --> 00:26:38,130
that could help you customize this piano tutorial

707
00:26:38,130 --> 00:26:40,430
to any form of music.

708
00:26:40,430 --> 00:26:41,530
Doesn't have to be just jazz.

709
00:26:41,950 --> 00:26:44,510
And you could actually expand it to build your own

710
00:26:44,510 --> 00:26:46,610
and everybody else could benefit from everybody else's stuff.

711
00:26:46,690 --> 00:26:48,010
So I think it's like, in a sense,

712
00:26:48,050 --> 00:26:49,590
it's just a sliver of the future.

713
00:26:50,030 --> 00:26:51,270
But to really get this going,

714
00:26:51,270 --> 00:26:52,430
I feel like every app,

715
00:26:52,530 --> 00:26:53,890
I guess maybe the high level thing is,

716
00:26:54,270 --> 00:26:55,350
every app you build with AI

717
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:57,650
should also natively assume

718
00:26:57,650 --> 00:26:59,970
that others will expand it with AI.

719
00:27:00,330 --> 00:27:02,490
And I think that's not an idea that's very popular yet.

720
00:27:02,490 --> 00:27:07,510
One thing that just jumps out at me immediately, and I'm curious if you've used Bitcoin or

721
00:27:07,510 --> 00:27:12,630
Nostra in here at all, but to me, the biggest thing that jumps out is this makes me insane.

722
00:27:12,790 --> 00:27:16,910
Again, I already understood this intellectually, but very different viscerally. This makes me so

723
00:27:16,910 --> 00:27:23,250
bullish on Nostra. Because in this world where anyone can literally speak into existence anything

724
00:27:23,250 --> 00:27:29,470
at the snap of a finger, what matters is where all of the identity and data goes to in a cruise.

725
00:27:30,090 --> 00:27:32,330
And so I'm sure Google and Apple and Facebook,

726
00:27:32,650 --> 00:27:33,930
whatever, will have their logins

727
00:27:33,930 --> 00:27:34,770
and your identity there.

728
00:27:34,810 --> 00:27:35,270
That's fine.

729
00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:36,310
And that'll probably do really well.

730
00:27:36,650 --> 00:27:38,850
But if you want an open alternative to that world,

731
00:27:38,850 --> 00:27:41,490
I mean, Nostra was literally made for this.

732
00:27:41,910 --> 00:27:43,590
So I don't know how to integrate Nostra

733
00:27:43,590 --> 00:27:44,570
more into the Flint community.

734
00:27:44,670 --> 00:27:46,230
But to me, this is like,

735
00:27:46,770 --> 00:27:48,510
all of the people that have been like,

736
00:27:48,890 --> 00:27:51,010
hey, Nostra could one day be for all the micro apps.

737
00:27:51,170 --> 00:27:54,490
And then yet we still only really have Twitter clones.

738
00:27:54,550 --> 00:27:56,370
And we do have hundreds of little app ideas,

739
00:27:56,530 --> 00:27:59,110
but it's all hackers that never polish their stuff.

740
00:27:59,470 --> 00:28:05,130
But now, I mean, like, I mean, I don't know if you've added this DKM, would you consider adding just log in with Nostra?

741
00:28:06,450 --> 00:28:12,550
Yeah, I mean, so right now, there's not a lot of data persistence, and there's not a lot of collaboration or sharing.

742
00:28:12,550 --> 00:28:21,590
So right now, I do all of the data persistence and just like a local storage just in your browser, which is not like a perfectly ideal thing, but it really works for me, and I really built it for me.

743
00:28:22,470 --> 00:28:26,710
But if other people wanted to use it, Nostra would be the natural place to push that.

744
00:28:26,710 --> 00:28:30,830
But right now, I haven't, well, I don't know.

745
00:28:31,170 --> 00:28:33,050
It's sort of a divergence from Flint.

746
00:28:33,550 --> 00:28:42,190
But I've worked on another app in the past week, which is a Bitcoin app and uses Nostre in exactly the way you're talking about.

747
00:28:42,330 --> 00:28:43,910
And it sort of doesn't really work without Nostre.

748
00:28:44,010 --> 00:28:45,550
So I can tell you a bit more about that.

749
00:28:45,890 --> 00:28:47,890
Maybe we'll actually talk more about it next week or something.

750
00:28:48,430 --> 00:28:49,270
Yeah, I'd love to hear.

751
00:28:49,410 --> 00:28:50,190
But I want to be clear.

752
00:28:50,330 --> 00:28:51,510
I mean, that's awesome.

753
00:28:51,610 --> 00:28:54,470
And I know there will be certain apps that lend themselves more to Bitcoin and Nostre.

754
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:59,630
whatever. But my point is just like, if you said this is Strava for piano, right? Like forget any

755
00:28:59,630 --> 00:29:05,730
special Bitcoin functionality. Like, okay, I just want to log into this app and see what my friends

756
00:29:05,730 --> 00:29:09,770
are playing. That's it. Like super, super simple. And it's like, I could do that with Google if I

757
00:29:09,770 --> 00:29:13,770
had that social graph or Apple or Facebook or whatever. But for a variety of reasons, you know,

758
00:29:13,790 --> 00:29:17,870
let's say I want an open social graph. It would be so cool if I just log in with Nostra. You and I

759
00:29:17,870 --> 00:29:21,530
are already friends on Nostra. It surfaces you and just says, hey, here's what DK's playing. Hey,

760
00:29:21,530 --> 00:29:24,850
did you know steve tried playing something i was like i didn't know steve played the piano

761
00:29:24,850 --> 00:29:30,790
yep yep and and i think if you i think you had that kind of you know i agree it's a good reason

762
00:29:30,790 --> 00:29:35,830
to be bullish on australia i think if you had such a thing and you had the list of who performed

763
00:29:35,830 --> 00:29:43,310
the 251 progression fastest or fastest average time i think you would end up seeing people speed

764
00:29:43,310 --> 00:29:47,190
run just like you do in video games you see people speed run to try to be the best and

765
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:53,570
the world would get better at playing piano at every time because there's like a fun competition

766
00:29:53,570 --> 00:29:56,590
that helped yeah i just want to make this point super super clear because i think it's worth

767
00:29:56,590 --> 00:30:01,310
really stressing there are like lots of weird cool new ways to use nostril and bitcoin that

768
00:30:01,310 --> 00:30:04,110
we haven't thought of yet and those apps are gonna be amazing we're gonna keep watching them happen

769
00:30:04,110 --> 00:30:08,890
over the next year but like for any skill acquisition exactly what you're saying the

770
00:30:08,890 --> 00:30:15,650
basics of a leaderboard and social graph which can also be upvoted on that leaderboard based on

771
00:30:15,650 --> 00:30:17,730
who zaps you. That idea alone,

772
00:30:17,890 --> 00:30:19,610
just social graph, show me

773
00:30:19,610 --> 00:30:21,830
a leaderboard and show me specifically a leaderboard

774
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:23,690
of my friends ranked by

775
00:30:23,690 --> 00:30:25,750
zaps, maybe with some web of trust in the ranking

776
00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:28,030
for any skill acquisition

777
00:30:28,030 --> 00:30:29,510
or really anything.

778
00:30:30,330 --> 00:30:31,730
That alone is transformative.

779
00:30:32,150 --> 00:30:33,590
A couple things. One, I think

780
00:30:33,590 --> 00:30:35,330
the best way to

781
00:30:35,330 --> 00:30:37,730
see the

782
00:30:37,730 --> 00:30:39,790
nostrils happen is just for people to build it.

783
00:30:40,210 --> 00:30:41,610
In this community, it won't be,

784
00:30:41,610 --> 00:30:43,550
it's not a requirement you have to use nostril, but someone

785
00:30:43,550 --> 00:30:46,030
is going to lead the charge.

786
00:30:46,310 --> 00:30:46,450
I mean,

787
00:30:47,890 --> 00:30:49,450
BitChat already demonstrates.

788
00:30:51,250 --> 00:30:52,050
BitChat already

789
00:30:52,050 --> 00:30:53,670
demonstrates Nostra, so we already have

790
00:30:53,670 --> 00:30:55,710
a great example, but others will be created

791
00:30:55,710 --> 00:30:57,970
and it'll influence

792
00:30:57,970 --> 00:30:59,390
other community members.

793
00:30:59,630 --> 00:31:01,210
Hopefully there'll be a lot of

794
00:31:01,210 --> 00:31:03,270
non-Bitcoiner

795
00:31:03,270 --> 00:31:05,570
builders in this community.

796
00:31:06,370 --> 00:31:07,850
Most, I would assume, have never heard

797
00:31:07,850 --> 00:31:09,990
of Nostra or don't understand it or don't believe in it

798
00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:11,930
or think it's a toy or whatever.

799
00:31:11,930 --> 00:31:15,170
but they'll then see other applications

800
00:31:15,170 --> 00:31:16,290
that are built that are really compelling

801
00:31:16,290 --> 00:31:17,690
and then how did you do that?

802
00:31:17,810 --> 00:31:19,450
Oh, Noster, it's the only way.

803
00:31:20,150 --> 00:31:21,630
And that's going to incept them.

804
00:31:21,950 --> 00:31:23,990
And I would even love to see some experimentation.

805
00:31:24,330 --> 00:31:25,890
Like again, I hope one day I get to that level

806
00:31:25,890 --> 00:31:27,250
but I would love to see an app

807
00:31:27,250 --> 00:31:28,650
from someone like a DK or a Matt

808
00:31:28,650 --> 00:31:30,130
that's like already knows how to do this polish

809
00:31:30,130 --> 00:31:31,810
or maybe Nick or someone from the team.

810
00:31:32,390 --> 00:31:35,930
Like just to get people's mind going around that

811
00:31:35,930 --> 00:31:37,430
and then some kind of like, you know,

812
00:31:37,490 --> 00:31:39,090
explain it like I'm five document.

813
00:31:39,510 --> 00:31:41,470
And I think it's worth even considering

814
00:31:41,470 --> 00:31:43,850
a rebrand, not even a rebrand.

815
00:31:43,950 --> 00:31:45,450
I don't know how to say this exactly, but like,

816
00:31:45,730 --> 00:31:47,470
what if you don't even call it Nostra? You're just like, hey,

817
00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:48,370
want open identity?

818
00:31:49,910 --> 00:31:51,710
We recommend use these

819
00:31:51,710 --> 00:31:53,750
docs. Point your Replit agent to these

820
00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:55,430
docs. Oh, what's Nostra?

821
00:31:55,530 --> 00:31:57,490
That's the protocol underneath it. It's just open identity.

822
00:31:58,050 --> 00:31:59,810
I think with all of these, you know, with Bitcoin,

823
00:31:59,950 --> 00:32:01,170
with Nostra, with all of these

824
00:32:01,170 --> 00:32:03,530
tools that, you know, help

825
00:32:03,530 --> 00:32:04,810
preserve freedom and

826
00:32:04,810 --> 00:32:07,450
create more freedom, I think like the

827
00:32:07,450 --> 00:32:09,510
reason of choosing it should always be because

828
00:32:09,510 --> 00:32:14,450
it does something that you can't do the other way it's not like oh i can buy coffee with us dollars

829
00:32:14,450 --> 00:32:18,810
i'm also going to buy it with bitcoin fine like no hate there but just the the place where it

830
00:32:18,810 --> 00:32:23,870
really shines is like wow i wanted to send a payment to a 15 year old in india and i that

831
00:32:23,870 --> 00:32:27,950
was not really possible before because you can't have a bank account i think that's where that's

832
00:32:27,950 --> 00:32:31,850
where these tools really shine so instead of telling people hey go build stuff on nostr just

833
00:32:31,850 --> 00:32:35,930
build whatever you want and if it turns out nostr can help solve your problems better we're going to

834
00:32:35,930 --> 00:32:40,650
be there ready to recommend it. But I'm agnostic. I don't care if Noster fails if it's not useful.

835
00:32:40,870 --> 00:32:45,050
I want it to win if it's useful. I agree. But I would then issue a specific challenge for people

836
00:32:45,050 --> 00:32:49,650
more capable than I am at this point. One experiment I would love to see. And maybe this

837
00:32:49,650 --> 00:32:57,710
will be you, DK. For your app of just playing the piano, okay, we all agree that a global leaderboard

838
00:32:57,710 --> 00:33:03,410
and a leaderboard of your friends ranked by who did something with zaps or something like something

839
00:33:03,410 --> 00:33:09,990
of like who did a thing, who played the fastest or who made the most progress, like ranked

840
00:33:09,990 --> 00:33:11,990
by zaps or ranked by payments, let's say, right?

841
00:33:12,770 --> 00:33:17,650
If someone can find a way, and I think this is what I love about Nick and the MDK team

842
00:33:17,650 --> 00:33:18,290
is like their whole thing.

843
00:33:18,390 --> 00:33:19,050
It's not about Bitcoin.

844
00:33:19,190 --> 00:33:23,070
It's just, hey, accept payments faster because you don't have, I mean, in theory, I'm still

845
00:33:23,070 --> 00:33:26,990
figuring this out, but in theory, all you have to do is just like point it towards the

846
00:33:26,990 --> 00:33:28,330
docs, get a secret and you're done.

847
00:33:28,410 --> 00:33:29,530
There's no account login.

848
00:33:29,650 --> 00:33:30,610
There's no KYC.

849
00:33:30,770 --> 00:33:32,530
There's not, it's just like, it just works, right?

850
00:33:32,790 --> 00:33:33,630
That's the same with Nostra.

851
00:33:33,730 --> 00:33:37,430
Because if I say, hey, try, and I would love to see you do this.

852
00:33:37,670 --> 00:33:39,370
Try building two versions of an app.

853
00:33:39,490 --> 00:33:42,330
In one, to get your leaderboard, you need to use Facebook or Google or Apple.

854
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:43,090
Right.

855
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:44,950
In the other, use Nostra.

856
00:33:45,290 --> 00:33:46,310
Now, forget Nostra.

857
00:33:46,390 --> 00:33:47,770
You tell me which one actually was easy.

858
00:33:48,090 --> 00:33:48,790
Or Discord.

859
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:53,030
Actually, there's a good, because the way the Flint website works.

860
00:33:53,030 --> 00:33:55,050
And that should be on, we should move that to Nostra too.

861
00:33:55,810 --> 00:33:58,630
Flint's authentication right now is Discord.

862
00:33:59,190 --> 00:34:01,530
And we actually didn't discuss Nostra.

863
00:34:01,530 --> 00:34:08,130
so uh i think matt you're listening so we should talk about yeah dog food nostre why not why nostre

864
00:34:08,130 --> 00:34:13,010
why not nostre um we are using discord as a community there's still not a good community

865
00:34:13,010 --> 00:34:18,850
tool as far as i know on nostre so that would be one reason if there were one then you know so again

866
00:34:18,850 --> 00:34:25,330
an idea recursive baby recursive yep and and if there is a super talented vibe coder you know we

867
00:34:25,330 --> 00:34:32,590
could all put it and here's another idea pots dk wants pot sorry a pot um we could all like imagine

868
00:34:32,590 --> 00:34:37,510
everyone could just fund this where it's like listen you know uh and i'm gonna guess the answer

869
00:34:37,510 --> 00:34:41,610
for why we're using discord today is because one the nostril alternative doesn't exist and two

870
00:34:41,610 --> 00:34:45,570
that's not true that doesn't exist i think um hodlbot has a version of her but it's probably

871
00:34:45,570 --> 00:34:49,090
just not as like good or future rich or whatever is like the company that's raised hundreds of

872
00:34:49,090 --> 00:34:53,610
millions or billions of dollars which of course makes sense but like imagine i mean dude this is

873
00:34:53,610 --> 00:34:55,290
so cool for like starting businesses.

874
00:34:55,570 --> 00:34:56,650
This is going to be incredible.

875
00:34:57,470 --> 00:34:59,590
It's like Kickstarter for everything. You can just

876
00:34:59,590 --> 00:35:01,590
pre-fund it. It's like, listen, we really

877
00:35:01,590 --> 00:35:03,550
want to move Flint onto Discord. It's

878
00:35:03,550 --> 00:35:05,370
not good enough. So,

879
00:35:05,610 --> 00:35:06,890
I'll kick in on, you know,

880
00:35:07,410 --> 00:35:09,510
a thousand sats. You kick in a thousand. All of a sudden,

881
00:35:09,890 --> 00:35:11,530
wait a second, there's a giant ass bounty. Now,

882
00:35:11,590 --> 00:35:13,570
then you have to figure out verifiability. Like, who's

883
00:35:13,570 --> 00:35:15,350
going to like, whatever. There has to be some judging criteria,

884
00:35:15,490 --> 00:35:17,750
whatever. But like, that's huge.

885
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:19,190
Huge.

886
00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:21,090
I'll donate 10,000

887
00:35:21,090 --> 00:35:22,610
Bitcoin to

888
00:35:22,610 --> 00:35:23,750
Max

889
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:26,650
to get him started

890
00:35:26,650 --> 00:35:28,810
with his paid replet.

891
00:35:28,870 --> 00:35:30,390
I'm definitely not building the Discord thing.

892
00:35:30,570 --> 00:35:32,850
I will take your 10,000 Bitcoin

893
00:35:32,850 --> 00:35:34,850
from my first app. I will get

894
00:35:34,850 --> 00:35:37,010
this damn meme generator up and running. That seems like

895
00:35:37,010 --> 00:35:38,850
sufficiently complex

896
00:35:38,850 --> 00:35:39,890
and good for where I'm at.

897
00:35:40,130 --> 00:35:42,930
It's a great starting point. We need someone of your skill

898
00:35:42,930 --> 00:35:44,590
level and maybe someone listening.

899
00:35:44,870 --> 00:35:47,030
But seriously, why don't we have a good Discord?

900
00:35:48,410 --> 00:35:48,710
I think

901
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:51,150
Madison, Flotilla.

902
00:35:51,150 --> 00:35:57,690
is that the name of the discord one like an australian okay but i haven't i haven't tried

903
00:35:57,690 --> 00:36:01,990
it lately i don't know i want to make one other meta comment and i i have to say you know matt

904
00:36:01,990 --> 00:36:07,690
belez if if you got that um the website going it looks beautiful absolutely beautiful like really

905
00:36:07,690 --> 00:36:14,650
i'm impressed um my honest assessment of noster and bitcoin is there's like there's the technical

906
00:36:14,650 --> 00:36:19,810
and the hacky stuff but like i think 90 of our problems is it's just for autists by autists and

907
00:36:19,810 --> 00:36:20,810
like we just need designers.

908
00:36:20,990 --> 00:36:22,170
It's just we need designers.

909
00:36:22,270 --> 00:36:22,650
That's it.

910
00:36:23,130 --> 00:36:23,870
Like, I'm serious.

911
00:36:24,030 --> 00:36:24,550
Like, I mean, yeah,

912
00:36:24,570 --> 00:36:25,470
you need some technical stuff, whatever.

913
00:36:25,750 --> 00:36:27,410
But like, and maybe this is something interesting

914
00:36:27,410 --> 00:36:28,670
to get the Bitcoin design community

915
00:36:28,670 --> 00:36:29,530
more involved with Flint

916
00:36:29,530 --> 00:36:31,090
because literally all we need

917
00:36:31,090 --> 00:36:32,310
is people with taste and patience

918
00:36:32,310 --> 00:36:34,650
because if, like, I bet Flotilla

919
00:36:34,650 --> 00:36:35,370
I haven't used yet,

920
00:36:35,490 --> 00:36:36,510
but I bet it's like jank.

921
00:36:36,910 --> 00:36:37,470
I bet it's beautiful.

922
00:36:37,550 --> 00:36:38,730
I mean, I bet it's a beautiful idea,

923
00:36:38,830 --> 00:36:39,470
but I bet it's jank.

924
00:36:39,530 --> 00:36:40,290
But one thing I'd say,

925
00:36:40,490 --> 00:36:41,250
and well, first of all,

926
00:36:41,490 --> 00:36:42,910
love to designers

927
00:36:42,910 --> 00:36:44,290
and we want more designers

928
00:36:44,290 --> 00:36:45,010
involved in Bitcoin.

929
00:36:45,010 --> 00:36:47,690
But I would also say with AI tools,

930
00:36:47,830 --> 00:36:48,850
you don't have to be,

931
00:36:49,130 --> 00:36:49,690
or we can,

932
00:36:49,810 --> 00:36:51,250
You mentioned taste.

933
00:36:52,050 --> 00:36:55,470
And Matt, I mean, like, vibe coders talk about taste.

934
00:36:55,630 --> 00:36:55,750
Right.

935
00:36:56,030 --> 00:36:59,930
And you don't have to be a professional designer background to have taste.

936
00:37:00,110 --> 00:37:00,330
Yes.

937
00:37:00,450 --> 00:37:02,070
So I think that's what's important.

938
00:37:02,230 --> 00:37:05,770
And now if you have taste and you combine that with these tools,

939
00:37:06,070 --> 00:37:08,990
you don't have to be a professional designer to yield a nice result.

940
00:37:09,390 --> 00:37:13,530
Like, I think, you know, what both Matt Blez and DK have created

941
00:37:13,530 --> 00:37:17,410
and like what Jack's created with BitChat and a lot of other examples

942
00:37:17,410 --> 00:37:18,970
are polished.

943
00:37:18,970 --> 00:37:19,410
Yeah.

944
00:37:19,410 --> 00:37:21,630
and demonstrate good taste.

945
00:37:21,830 --> 00:37:23,230
And none of them are professional designers.

946
00:37:23,410 --> 00:37:24,050
So I would love to hear.

947
00:37:24,170 --> 00:37:26,530
And again, this goes to another idea,

948
00:37:26,610 --> 00:37:27,230
which we really need.

949
00:37:27,290 --> 00:37:28,530
And I heard some other people talking about

950
00:37:28,530 --> 00:37:31,570
like Normie land is another massive idea,

951
00:37:31,670 --> 00:37:32,830
which DK mentioned many times,

952
00:37:32,930 --> 00:37:34,170
version control for vibe coding.

953
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:36,490
Like I want to see, Matt,

954
00:37:36,590 --> 00:37:38,130
how did you get something to look beautiful?

955
00:37:38,510 --> 00:37:39,170
How did you do that?

956
00:37:40,170 --> 00:37:42,010
Yeah, I agree that that would be good.

957
00:37:42,670 --> 00:37:44,550
And I don't know the answer offhand.

958
00:37:44,810 --> 00:37:45,510
What I was going to say,

959
00:37:45,590 --> 00:37:46,710
the development of that website,

960
00:37:46,710 --> 00:37:50,390
I don't know if I have all the details straight

961
00:37:50,390 --> 00:37:52,710
but I have at least the high level

962
00:37:52,710 --> 00:37:58,450
Matt had a web dev do traditional web development

963
00:37:58,450 --> 00:37:59,370
to create that website

964
00:37:59,370 --> 00:38:01,350
in parallel he vibe coded it

965
00:38:01,350 --> 00:38:06,850
I don't know if he ended up scrapping all the web dev

966
00:38:06,850 --> 00:38:08,470
or built on top of it

967
00:38:08,470 --> 00:38:09,630
what I definitely know is

968
00:38:09,630 --> 00:38:11,710
whichever route he took

969
00:38:11,710 --> 00:38:13,370
all the additions

970
00:38:13,370 --> 00:38:15,370
and we've been doing them in real time

971
00:38:15,370 --> 00:38:16,630
last night and this morning

972
00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:18,030
are all him vibe coding.

973
00:38:18,570 --> 00:38:21,390
So even if it was a traditional web dev

974
00:38:21,390 --> 00:38:22,530
got the starting point,

975
00:38:22,610 --> 00:38:23,830
it's been vibe coding since.

976
00:38:24,610 --> 00:38:29,910
And I've found maybe like 10 bugs

977
00:38:29,910 --> 00:38:34,210
or problems with it in the past 14, 15 hours.

978
00:38:34,370 --> 00:38:34,610
Yeah.

979
00:38:34,610 --> 00:38:37,930
All of them fixed instantly by Matt

980
00:38:37,930 --> 00:38:39,630
and with AI tools.

981
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:44,470
I suggested a few features be added before launch

982
00:38:44,470 --> 00:38:45,430
that were launch gating

983
00:38:45,430 --> 00:38:47,490
and he was bound and determined to launch today.

984
00:38:48,490 --> 00:38:49,790
And he got him done.

985
00:38:49,950 --> 00:38:51,270
I mean, it was absolutely incredible

986
00:38:51,270 --> 00:38:53,490
how quickly you can iterate

987
00:38:53,490 --> 00:38:55,550
without touching a line of code.

988
00:38:55,850 --> 00:38:58,650
So wait, he's saying design in Figma,

989
00:38:59,230 --> 00:39:00,570
trad, web, dev, vibe coding.

990
00:39:00,650 --> 00:39:02,190
So we're not all the way to vibe coding yet.

991
00:39:03,550 --> 00:39:04,810
But maybe we'll get there soon.

992
00:39:04,830 --> 00:39:05,950
I think it's like a hybrid, yeah.

993
00:39:06,710 --> 00:39:07,750
And I will also say,

994
00:39:07,810 --> 00:39:11,250
because I had my website for HiveMind,

995
00:39:11,310 --> 00:39:12,250
HiveMind.vc.

996
00:39:12,250 --> 00:39:13,310
I worked with a designer.

997
00:39:13,310 --> 00:39:17,390
It was a long and arduous process.

998
00:39:18,530 --> 00:39:20,530
And we finally, it took a long time.

999
00:39:21,130 --> 00:39:22,170
A lot of that was on me.

1000
00:39:22,310 --> 00:39:24,970
But we finally got something kind of like up and running.

1001
00:39:25,150 --> 00:39:27,350
And now he's got me on Webflow and I hate it.

1002
00:39:27,630 --> 00:39:29,350
And it's like, I want to make a basic change.

1003
00:39:29,530 --> 00:39:31,190
And it's like pushing the boulder up a hill.

1004
00:39:31,570 --> 00:39:33,010
And I'm already to the point where,

1005
00:39:33,310 --> 00:39:36,110
I mean, just publishing an essay was all,

1006
00:39:36,250 --> 00:39:37,470
I mean, again, as you guys know,

1007
00:39:37,570 --> 00:39:39,870
I've established I'm not the patient technical guy,

1008
00:39:39,950 --> 00:39:40,790
but it was just like, dude,

1009
00:39:40,930 --> 00:39:42,430
this is unacceptably horrible.

1010
00:39:42,430 --> 00:39:45,710
and I'm just going to throw out there right now

1011
00:39:45,710 --> 00:39:47,950
that there's some incredible designers with great taste.

1012
00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:50,730
I'm open to redoing another web redesign

1013
00:39:50,730 --> 00:39:52,030
on my site later this year.

1014
00:39:52,830 --> 00:39:54,030
Again, same thing as in,

1015
00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:55,410
I would love to go to the Flint community,

1016
00:39:55,550 --> 00:39:58,610
say here, I got the vision, let's sit down.

1017
00:39:59,150 --> 00:40:00,890
Someone that has the patience and the skills,

1018
00:40:01,010 --> 00:40:02,190
we can work together on the taste.

1019
00:40:02,730 --> 00:40:04,230
Like, I would love to pay you to do that.

1020
00:40:04,670 --> 00:40:06,090
So I'm just throwing that out into the universe

1021
00:40:06,090 --> 00:40:07,710
in case someone wants to all of that.

1022
00:40:08,310 --> 00:40:10,930
So a few more things I wanted to mention about Flint.

1023
00:40:10,930 --> 00:40:17,550
So one question people in the audience might be asking is like, maybe they're questioning the value of it.

1024
00:40:17,690 --> 00:40:23,330
Like they can, you can already go VibeCode, you can go look at Twitter and get resources and information to help out.

1025
00:40:24,310 --> 00:40:36,830
But, you know, I think a successful Flint will be a place where you have peers that are going to level up your game.

1026
00:40:37,450 --> 00:40:40,690
And they're going to level up your game because you're going to see what they're doing.

1027
00:40:40,690 --> 00:40:41,970
and you're like, oh, I'm behind.

1028
00:40:42,150 --> 00:40:42,910
Yeah, it's already happening.

1029
00:40:43,050 --> 00:40:43,670
It's already happening.

1030
00:40:43,750 --> 00:40:44,750
I got peer pressure into doing something.

1031
00:40:44,750 --> 00:40:44,910
Yes.

1032
00:40:45,230 --> 00:40:46,710
So that's one thing.

1033
00:40:47,150 --> 00:40:49,890
And then you're going to have a requirement

1034
00:40:49,890 --> 00:40:51,010
to be part of this community

1035
00:40:51,010 --> 00:40:53,150
is that you commit to not only building

1036
00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:54,510
and building a certain base,

1037
00:40:54,590 --> 00:40:57,570
but testing and being a good team member

1038
00:40:57,570 --> 00:40:59,090
and community member.

1039
00:40:59,350 --> 00:41:00,530
Yeah, that's good.

1040
00:41:01,410 --> 00:41:02,650
And yeah, because like myself,

1041
00:41:02,790 --> 00:41:04,330
I've been lacking in the building.

1042
00:41:04,430 --> 00:41:05,370
I need to up my game there.

1043
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:06,250
You're the best.

1044
00:41:06,270 --> 00:41:07,130
But I'm a good tester.

1045
00:41:07,310 --> 00:41:08,190
Of everyone in our chat,

1046
00:41:08,350 --> 00:41:10,230
Steve is always on the money for testing shit.

1047
00:41:10,230 --> 00:41:15,810
120%. So both are important. And there's an expectation, if you're a member, that you

1048
00:41:15,810 --> 00:41:23,110
allocate time and do both. So when you're a builder, there's nothing better than to have

1049
00:41:23,110 --> 00:41:30,550
people play with it and find problems, find bugs, critique, but also be like, that was fucking

1050
00:41:30,550 --> 00:41:35,730
awesome. It makes you feel good, right? Well, it makes you feel good, but also it's super

1051
00:41:35,730 --> 00:41:38,510
critical. And I already say this, even though we didn't get everything worked out because it was

1052
00:41:38,510 --> 00:41:42,130
a little last minute on my end, but like just not only so you have inspiration from your friends in

1053
00:41:42,130 --> 00:41:46,110
a group, but also like people can help you. Like, you know, you shouldn't just sit there and bang

1054
00:41:46,110 --> 00:41:49,590
your head against the laptop. Someone can be like, Hey man, you just need to toggle on. You're like,

1055
00:41:49,650 --> 00:41:55,550
oh. And then, you know, and we do. So we want to encourage building early and often and getting

1056
00:41:55,550 --> 00:42:01,490
simple things out the door. They'll go into the kindling section of the member. And then we want

1057
00:42:01,490 --> 00:42:06,690
to, but we do want to encourage high quality to polish taste. And so there'll be a little bit of

1058
00:42:06,690 --> 00:42:08,430
a gate to make it public.

1059
00:42:08,610 --> 00:42:10,750
Actually, let me step back. Anyone participating,

1060
00:42:11,090 --> 00:42:12,770
you own the intellectual property that you built.

1061
00:42:12,950 --> 00:42:14,710
Flint doesn't own this. Flint has no

1062
00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:16,830
liability. Whatever you build,

1063
00:42:16,950 --> 00:42:18,890
it's yours and it's on you.

1064
00:42:19,910 --> 00:42:20,730
Are we requiring?

1065
00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:22,030
This is an interesting question.

1066
00:42:23,310 --> 00:42:24,330
Encouraged, but no.

1067
00:42:24,490 --> 00:42:26,770
Are you going to say open source? Yeah, or creative comments.

1068
00:42:27,390 --> 00:42:28,410
So open source,

1069
00:42:28,610 --> 00:42:30,450
it's encouraged, but not required.

1070
00:42:30,790 --> 00:42:32,730
I say that because one thing I did see

1071
00:42:32,730 --> 00:42:34,750
in Revit that I love, another feature that we've talked

1072
00:42:34,750 --> 00:42:35,590
about is the remix.

1073
00:42:35,590 --> 00:42:37,870
like that to me is going to be super cool

1074
00:42:37,870 --> 00:42:39,950
and maybe there's just like is it remixable or not

1075
00:42:39,950 --> 00:42:42,290
like check a button but like that would be super cool

1076
00:42:42,290 --> 00:42:44,110
so there's no there's another product

1077
00:42:44,110 --> 00:42:46,130
that isn't launched yet that I just started testing

1078
00:42:46,130 --> 00:42:48,110
yesterday that has a

1079
00:42:48,110 --> 00:42:48,930
remix feature

1080
00:42:48,930 --> 00:42:52,150
remix makes sense inside Flint as well we don't have

1081
00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:54,270
it yet but we certainly encourage that

1082
00:42:54,270 --> 00:42:55,710
even if we don't have like formal

1083
00:42:55,710 --> 00:42:57,930
tools to make it happen

1084
00:42:57,930 --> 00:43:00,110
we'll certainly encourage open

1085
00:43:00,110 --> 00:43:00,570
source

1086
00:43:00,570 --> 00:43:04,010
and you know anyone not doing open source

1087
00:43:04,010 --> 00:43:06,050
I'd ask why in a polite way.

1088
00:43:06,210 --> 00:43:07,530
Like, why not open source it, right?

1089
00:43:07,650 --> 00:43:10,150
And, you know, I suspect most will be open source.

1090
00:43:10,570 --> 00:43:10,670
Yeah.

1091
00:43:11,610 --> 00:43:15,370
And a cool idea is if you do have the open source repo,

1092
00:43:15,970 --> 00:43:17,670
one of the ideas we were chatting about

1093
00:43:17,670 --> 00:43:19,410
on the other group chat

1094
00:43:19,410 --> 00:43:21,290
is that you could build a little tool

1095
00:43:21,290 --> 00:43:22,850
that takes a link.

1096
00:43:23,710 --> 00:43:24,230
The one without Macs.

1097
00:43:26,110 --> 00:43:28,170
I'm going to keep this goddamn app in there.

1098
00:43:29,650 --> 00:43:30,850
You could take a repo

1099
00:43:30,850 --> 00:43:34,150
that is already public and open source

1100
00:43:34,150 --> 00:43:35,910
and you could ask an LLM,

1101
00:43:36,590 --> 00:43:38,270
hey, generate me the prompt

1102
00:43:38,270 --> 00:43:39,290
that would be required

1103
00:43:39,290 --> 00:43:40,670
to generate this repo.

1104
00:43:41,750 --> 00:43:43,870
So basically like reverse engineer the prompt

1105
00:43:43,870 --> 00:43:45,970
because effectively it lets you remix, right?

1106
00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:47,090
It says, take this thing.

1107
00:43:47,170 --> 00:43:48,190
I want to take it in a different direction,

1108
00:43:48,290 --> 00:43:49,310
but I don't control the repo.

1109
00:43:49,710 --> 00:43:51,070
So write me the prompt

1110
00:43:51,070 --> 00:43:51,950
that I would need to submit

1111
00:43:51,950 --> 00:43:53,770
to be able to have effectively

1112
00:43:53,770 --> 00:43:55,750
all of the software under my own control

1113
00:43:55,750 --> 00:43:56,710
in open source.

1114
00:43:56,870 --> 00:43:58,470
You could continue to keep it open source

1115
00:43:58,470 --> 00:44:00,070
and I'm going to add my own stuff to it.

1116
00:44:00,110 --> 00:44:00,830
So in a sense, it's like,

1117
00:44:00,850 --> 00:44:06,590
remix you know like minor minor step remix you know dk just hearing you say stuff like that and

1118
00:44:06,590 --> 00:44:11,270
like looking at you in your cozy christmas looking sweater like i can just see a vision right now of

1119
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:16,790
like a fire maybe a glass of hot cocoa and like you know like you you and matt saying they're like

1120
00:44:16,790 --> 00:44:21,450
vibe coding with dk i know y'all are already doing this like seriously like more the more of like a

1121
00:44:21,450 --> 00:44:24,910
chance you can because like yeah i would never thought that's like that's really smart idea

1122
00:44:24,910 --> 00:44:27,930
backwards compatible or whatever to backwards

1123
00:44:27,930 --> 00:44:31,470
whatever. Yeah, like reverse engineer from your open source.

1124
00:44:31,990 --> 00:44:35,810
I think that's almost like that one from being able to, like long term, we've

1125
00:44:35,810 --> 00:44:39,010
talked a lot about, you know, GitHub for prompts.

1126
00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:43,470
Yes. Which is effectively a little bit like GitHub for the process of prompting and iterating.

1127
00:44:43,470 --> 00:44:46,030
It's not like, here's the final prompt only.

1128
00:44:46,570 --> 00:44:49,810
But it's like, bit by bit. But I mean, I think

1129
00:44:49,810 --> 00:44:53,710
the Flint community is a place where that kind of thing is likely

1130
00:44:53,710 --> 00:44:58,370
to emerge because there's gonna be what half a dozen or a few dozen people gathered trying to

1131
00:44:58,370 --> 00:45:02,570
make things trying to make them better and we're going to be i mean we already share prompts with

1132
00:45:02,570 --> 00:45:07,090
each other like oh i couldn't get mdk to work but i need a little thing oh just you know do this

1133
00:45:07,090 --> 00:45:11,550
little tweak or send this prompt like i've used matt's prompts before in the past i suspect just

1134
00:45:11,550 --> 00:45:17,430
having like first uh kind of low tech versions you know just paste into a chat group is kind of the

1135
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:21,690
best initial prompt sharing and then we can figure out what product to build around prompt sharing

1136
00:45:21,690 --> 00:45:24,090
depending on the stuff that we're just kind of doing again and again.

1137
00:45:24,170 --> 00:45:25,470
We just want to optimize and improve.

1138
00:45:26,230 --> 00:45:26,450
Agreed.

1139
00:45:26,710 --> 00:45:29,810
And so, again, you have to apply to be in this,

1140
00:45:29,890 --> 00:45:32,270
and we want to start small, set a culture.

1141
00:45:33,250 --> 00:45:35,190
We'll definitely want to grow it over time.

1142
00:45:36,250 --> 00:45:40,730
I think we'll also want to have a component that's like public,

1143
00:45:40,850 --> 00:45:42,250
like helping anyone too.

1144
00:45:42,250 --> 00:45:47,050
So whether it be members offering up 15-minute windows of time

1145
00:45:47,050 --> 00:45:49,830
like you suggested to help newcomers, that's a great idea.

1146
00:45:49,830 --> 00:45:53,170
and other resources.

1147
00:45:53,950 --> 00:45:55,190
I think that would be great.

1148
00:45:55,550 --> 00:45:57,210
We also want the app gallery

1149
00:45:57,210 --> 00:45:59,690
going from kindling to firewood

1150
00:45:59,690 --> 00:46:02,870
to I believe the third phase is blaze.

1151
00:46:03,970 --> 00:46:06,310
A blaze is when you take something that's like

1152
00:46:06,310 --> 00:46:09,510
so you basically go from private alpha

1153
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:10,990
to public beta.

1154
00:46:11,830 --> 00:46:13,970
A blaze is when you actually turn it into a real business.

1155
00:46:13,970 --> 00:46:15,530
But do you need the pot for the blaze?

1156
00:46:15,530 --> 00:46:24,310
so i i but you and the blaze the blaze can be done by someone other than the original author

1157
00:46:24,310 --> 00:46:28,770
too right i mean there might be people who just either don't have the they're not in a position

1158
00:46:28,770 --> 00:46:34,870
in life or don't have the time to build a business but they love the fact that they can get ideas out

1159
00:46:34,870 --> 00:46:40,510
of their head into a you know public beta state and then they'd welcome someone else you know

1160
00:46:40,510 --> 00:46:45,250
taking the torch from them and creating a blaze i love it and i was kind of saying that tongue-in-cheek

1161
00:46:45,250 --> 00:46:46,250
but also kind of not.

1162
00:46:46,250 --> 00:46:57,541
So about the bot like I two ideas that come to mind immediately for this We really need to figure out how to get this off of Discord or whatever the website onto

1163
00:46:57,541 --> 00:46:59,140
Nostra and Lightning-based solution.

1164
00:46:59,260 --> 00:47:00,081
It needs to be recursive.

1165
00:47:00,521 --> 00:47:02,581
Like, think about how cool this will be.

1166
00:47:03,061 --> 00:47:03,840
You know, so again,

1167
00:47:04,100 --> 00:47:04,940
the big problem

1168
00:47:04,940 --> 00:47:07,200
for everything on the web,

1169
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:09,700
I have so much just going through my head.

1170
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:11,140
I mean, this is really inspiring

1171
00:47:11,140 --> 00:47:12,620
because I can see a vision

1172
00:47:12,620 --> 00:47:14,180
of the open web exploding again.

1173
00:47:14,260 --> 00:47:15,360
And it's super awesome

1174
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:16,180
and super beautiful

1175
00:47:16,180 --> 00:47:18,880
and like super important that this stuff takes off

1176
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,740
before we're all strapped into Zuckerberg's,

1177
00:47:21,740 --> 00:47:23,541
you know, whatever,

1178
00:47:24,100 --> 00:47:27,920
cricket eating virtual reality machine.

1179
00:47:28,660 --> 00:47:29,561
Like this is important.

1180
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,321
And the problem though

1181
00:47:32,321 --> 00:47:35,061
is we're about to experience infinity.

1182
00:47:35,220 --> 00:47:39,800
There's just going to be so, so, so, so many apps.

1183
00:47:40,460 --> 00:47:43,061
And the problem is how do you do search and discovery

1184
00:47:43,061 --> 00:47:44,001
in a world of infinity?

1185
00:47:44,001 --> 00:47:46,180
and it all comes back to Nostra Web of Trust

1186
00:47:46,180 --> 00:47:48,600
and Bitcoin scarce signal, right?

1187
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:49,280
This is all the stuff.

1188
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:50,720
And brands, like Flint.

1189
00:47:50,981 --> 00:47:53,561
People, I mean, I'd say like Flint succeeding

1190
00:47:53,561 --> 00:47:55,700
if people go to Flint to see the best.

1191
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:57,180
And hopefully we look back

1192
00:47:57,180 --> 00:47:59,501
and these apps that we're proud of right now

1193
00:47:59,501 --> 00:48:00,780
will laugh at because

1194
00:48:00,780 --> 00:48:03,220
like a year from now,

1195
00:48:03,821 --> 00:48:04,360
they'll be so,

1196
00:48:04,501 --> 00:48:06,160
we'll be like, those were a joke.

1197
00:48:06,501 --> 00:48:07,940
But, you know, now it's like, wow,

1198
00:48:08,061 --> 00:48:09,380
I can't believe how polished it is

1199
00:48:09,380 --> 00:48:11,120
and it was built with no hand coding.

1200
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:11,620
Totally.

1201
00:48:11,981 --> 00:48:13,821
But to be clear, what I'm saying on that is

1202
00:48:13,821 --> 00:48:15,680
I think this is obviously the right way to start

1203
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,240
is with like a high bar of taste and community and brand.

1204
00:48:18,481 --> 00:48:20,100
But my point is, imagine, you know,

1205
00:48:20,100 --> 00:48:20,920
you've got three apps on there.

1206
00:48:21,001 --> 00:48:22,200
Imagine when you have 3 billion.

1207
00:48:23,100 --> 00:48:24,521
How are you going to decide which ones to show?

1208
00:48:25,081 --> 00:48:28,200
And so if this is all Nostra and Lightning-ified,

1209
00:48:28,700 --> 00:48:30,160
you know, then you can just zap it.

1210
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,440
And like, I mean, you can still have like certain tastemakers.

1211
00:48:32,541 --> 00:48:33,660
You could have like, here's Steve's view,

1212
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:35,001
here's Matt's view, here's DK's view.

1213
00:48:35,260 --> 00:48:36,061
But you could also just like,

1214
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,501
here's the global leader of board based on raw sats

1215
00:48:38,501 --> 00:48:41,440
and or on web of trust adjusted sats,

1216
00:48:41,521 --> 00:48:42,160
which is a key in the world.

1217
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:50,360
But my point is, this is a perfect environment in which to test the thesis that we can have better search and discoverability with Bitcoin and Nostra.

1218
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:52,041
It's amazing.

1219
00:48:52,420 --> 00:48:52,960
I agree.

1220
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:58,240
And I would suggest we, you know, I like the idea of getting to a flotilla or a Nostra-based solution.

1221
00:48:58,321 --> 00:49:07,800
But I feel like doing that today, if we don't have the right tool, is sort of like going to slow us down versus let's get to the point where we feel the pain of the problem.

1222
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,321
and then we find that the aspirin

1223
00:49:10,321 --> 00:49:11,061
or the whatever,

1224
00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:12,660
the pill that solves that pain

1225
00:49:12,660 --> 00:49:14,800
is flotilla or a nostril-based solution.

1226
00:49:15,300 --> 00:49:15,680
I agree.

1227
00:49:15,860 --> 00:49:17,061
I'm just planting the seed

1228
00:49:17,061 --> 00:49:19,001
because as we discussed earlier in the chat,

1229
00:49:19,140 --> 00:49:20,021
the end game is there.

1230
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:20,981
Yep.

1231
00:49:21,180 --> 00:49:22,640
Now, and also just want to-

1232
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:23,041
We can see where this goes.

1233
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:23,360
Yeah.

1234
00:49:23,501 --> 00:49:24,001
Let's see where this goes.

1235
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:25,340
Shout out to Matt.

1236
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:26,440
If we can get ahead of things, why not?

1237
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,481
Shout out to Matt who's asking me,

1238
00:49:28,561 --> 00:49:29,360
what's the bounty, Max?

1239
00:49:30,321 --> 00:49:32,280
The bounty depends on the person,

1240
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:33,620
but if you're a really good designer,

1241
00:49:33,940 --> 00:49:35,300
we could talk about something serious.

1242
00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:40,400
I was also going to say

1243
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:41,860
Yes, exactly

1244
00:49:41,860 --> 00:49:44,300
Or did you want to comment on what Matt said?

1245
00:49:44,300 --> 00:49:45,460
Sorry, I just agree with Matt

1246
00:49:45,460 --> 00:49:46,880
I can't read the chat

1247
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,300
He just says rather than starring apps and kindling

1248
00:49:50,300 --> 00:49:51,081
we should use zapping

1249
00:49:51,081 --> 00:49:53,061
120% goes up

1250
00:49:53,061 --> 00:49:53,940
Agreed

1251
00:49:53,940 --> 00:49:56,700
And related to that comment and what you were just saying

1252
00:49:56,700 --> 00:49:59,240
what I'm already seeing

1253
00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:01,021
by people building apps

1254
00:50:01,021 --> 00:50:03,001
in Flint is

1255
00:50:03,001 --> 00:50:06,220
we're going to generate a feedback cycle

1256
00:50:06,220 --> 00:50:07,561
to Bitcoin protocol devs.

1257
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,581
Lightning, ARK, Spark, Bitcoin itself.

1258
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:12,240
Because DK is trying to build stuff.

1259
00:50:12,380 --> 00:50:13,740
And he's like, Steve, how do I do that?

1260
00:50:13,780 --> 00:50:16,100
And I'm like, I should know.

1261
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:18,260
It's frankly embarrassing.

1262
00:50:18,460 --> 00:50:18,780
I don't.

1263
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:20,821
And I don't have the answer.

1264
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,041
And I don't know if there is an answer today.

1265
00:50:23,041 --> 00:50:26,300
So it puts pressure on me

1266
00:50:26,300 --> 00:50:30,501
to then go work with protocol devs

1267
00:50:30,501 --> 00:50:31,081
to be like, okay,

1268
00:50:31,081 --> 00:50:33,061
here are their product requirements.

1269
00:50:33,501 --> 00:50:35,001
Here's what they're trying to achieve.

1270
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:36,620
How do we do this today?

1271
00:50:36,940 --> 00:50:38,180
And if there's an answer, great.

1272
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:39,800
I'm going to tell DK and then he'll build it.

1273
00:50:40,001 --> 00:50:41,981
And maybe we need to improve the dev UX

1274
00:50:41,981 --> 00:50:43,120
or the education or whatever.

1275
00:50:43,700 --> 00:50:45,360
I think that'll sometimes be the answer.

1276
00:50:46,481 --> 00:50:47,960
But we're also going to, I think,

1277
00:50:48,021 --> 00:50:49,120
sometimes have the answer where

1278
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,360
Bitcoin protocol does not support it yet today.

1279
00:50:51,460 --> 00:50:52,180
So we have to fix it.

1280
00:50:52,340 --> 00:50:53,160
And we got to fix it.

1281
00:50:53,481 --> 00:50:56,760
And, you know, I sort of been beating myself up like,

1282
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,041
oh, I should have been doing this years ago

1283
00:50:59,041 --> 00:51:00,321
in my role, right?

1284
00:51:00,321 --> 00:51:06,840
But I do think to be a little fair to me, I think the past year is really the only window of time where it was realistic.

1285
00:51:07,420 --> 00:51:17,180
Because like five years ago, it takes so long to build an application that the feedback cycles are super high cost to get some feedback.

1286
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,920
It's not realistic now because you can build so quickly.

1287
00:51:21,820 --> 00:51:24,581
You can develop the requirements much more efficiently.

1288
00:51:24,820 --> 00:51:25,860
So now is the right time.

1289
00:51:25,860 --> 00:51:27,081
I 100% agree.

1290
00:51:27,601 --> 00:51:28,501
It couldn't have really been done.

1291
00:51:28,501 --> 00:51:30,440
even a year ago, it was still pretty jank.

1292
00:51:30,521 --> 00:51:32,041
We didn't have MDK that was focused on this.

1293
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:33,140
I think the time is perfect.

1294
00:51:33,300 --> 00:51:34,680
It's making me super bullish on Austria

1295
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:35,900
and Bitcoin Lightning.

1296
00:51:36,581 --> 00:51:38,320
Also, to that point,

1297
00:51:38,501 --> 00:51:41,601
I think this solves a major, major problem

1298
00:51:41,601 --> 00:51:43,160
that the Bitcoin community has faced,

1299
00:51:43,501 --> 00:51:45,021
which is, again, for autists, by autists.

1300
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,561
We have extremely smart people that are like,

1301
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:49,760
our protocol devs are as good as it gets in the world,

1302
00:51:50,081 --> 00:51:52,501
but our application devs are the worst.

1303
00:51:53,041 --> 00:51:55,820
But now, with Repli, I mean, it's just...

1304
00:51:55,820 --> 00:51:57,960
Sorry to HiveMind's portfolio companies.

1305
00:51:58,501 --> 00:52:02,581
I mean, with some exceptions, Stacker News is amazing.

1306
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:04,320
Fountain is really good.

1307
00:52:04,521 --> 00:52:09,760
But the fact that we have five good apps after five years, come on now.

1308
00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:13,041
And so, but now, VibeCoding will fix that.

1309
00:52:13,180 --> 00:52:15,561
And so, what I think is amazing, I want to make a recommendation,

1310
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,541
and I will be reaching out to all the HiveMind portfolio companies like Albie.

1311
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:20,920
I mean, MDK is already there.

1312
00:52:21,521 --> 00:52:26,481
Breeze, LightSpark, Lightning Labs, all of them.

1313
00:52:26,481 --> 00:52:29,061
if they want to win and make money,

1314
00:52:29,501 --> 00:52:31,120
should get involved with the vibe coding

1315
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:32,380
in the community and see what,

1316
00:52:32,561 --> 00:52:33,041
to your point,

1317
00:52:33,300 --> 00:52:34,501
we've all been developing

1318
00:52:34,501 --> 00:52:35,920
these like theoretical worlds

1319
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,581
without having any real world pressure

1320
00:52:37,581 --> 00:52:38,320
to say, what do you,

1321
00:52:38,501 --> 00:52:40,001
it's like, well, I think application

1322
00:52:40,001 --> 00:52:41,501
to web's need this thing in the protocol.

1323
00:52:41,601 --> 00:52:42,061
We have no idea.

1324
00:52:42,601 --> 00:52:43,900
But now if you're in there

1325
00:52:43,900 --> 00:52:45,180
and if any of you guys are listening,

1326
00:52:45,521 --> 00:52:46,260
if I'm invested in you,

1327
00:52:46,300 --> 00:52:47,561
please get involved with this.

1328
00:52:48,180 --> 00:52:49,860
You're going to find your users here

1329
00:52:49,860 --> 00:52:50,800
and they're going to tell you

1330
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:51,920
what you actually need to build.

1331
00:52:52,240 --> 00:52:52,620
That's awesome.

1332
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,160
Yeah, all of technology is kind of like,

1333
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:55,940
you know, infrastructure,

1334
00:52:55,940 --> 00:53:01,061
bootstraps apps bootstraps more infrastructure bootstraps more apps and i think we've had a lot

1335
00:53:01,061 --> 00:53:06,021
of building in the infrastructure side and not enough pushing on the app side so if we if part

1336
00:53:06,021 --> 00:53:11,260
of what flint can do is encourage more application building which puts pressure like steve was saying

1337
00:53:11,260 --> 00:53:15,800
on the infrastructure side to figure out what's actually going to be used and what would be needed

1338
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:20,021
and and what kinds of enhancements would be used by applications and applications that couldn't

1339
00:53:20,021 --> 00:53:21,541
have been built before can now be built.

1340
00:53:22,581 --> 00:53:27,660
DK, anything else, or Matt Blez, if you're listening and you want to type a response,

1341
00:53:27,820 --> 00:53:31,700
anything else important to mention on Flint that we haven't yet?

1342
00:53:32,501 --> 00:53:37,200
Yeah, I mean, on the Flint stuff, like I've said before, I think, you know, Matt being

1343
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:43,800
a little bit of the instigator here is really valuable because you can see in the website

1344
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,541
design, like the person who put this together actually cares.

1345
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:48,521
It's beautiful.

1346
00:53:48,521 --> 00:53:50,200
And it's beautiful.

1347
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:51,981
It's very carefully worded.

1348
00:53:52,340 --> 00:53:53,960
And I think it's that, I've said before,

1349
00:53:54,081 --> 00:53:55,081
game recognized game.

1350
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:56,740
So when you see that website, you're like,

1351
00:53:56,900 --> 00:53:59,240
I'm going to come here and do some really good work.

1352
00:53:59,620 --> 00:54:01,760
And I was going to just reference an anecdote.

1353
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,101
I got a text from, was it Steve or Matt this morning?

1354
00:54:05,101 --> 00:54:07,001
And they're like, hey, we're going to put this thing out.

1355
00:54:07,900 --> 00:54:11,101
Can you make your app, can you make an icon for your app?

1356
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:12,380
It should just be like, you know, five minutes.

1357
00:54:12,380 --> 00:54:15,320
I was like, yeah, I know that making an icon,

1358
00:54:15,601 --> 00:54:17,501
a good one is not going to be just five minutes,

1359
00:54:17,501 --> 00:54:18,880
but let me do this.

1360
00:54:18,940 --> 00:54:21,001
So I get up and it's like 6, 7 a.m.

1361
00:54:21,420 --> 00:54:23,760
And I got down to the app

1362
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,021
and I started adding more polish

1363
00:54:25,021 --> 00:54:26,860
and improving the documentation

1364
00:54:26,860 --> 00:54:28,900
and then making an icon

1365
00:54:28,900 --> 00:54:29,960
that I'm actually proud of now,

1366
00:54:30,021 --> 00:54:31,521
which I wouldn't have done just for my own use,

1367
00:54:31,581 --> 00:54:34,021
but I did because the taste bar

1368
00:54:34,021 --> 00:54:35,581
that Matt is encouraging

1369
00:54:35,581 --> 00:54:36,501
and sort of the taste bar

1370
00:54:36,501 --> 00:54:38,920
that the firewood and gallery encourages.

1371
00:54:39,021 --> 00:54:40,380
So I think just like, you know,

1372
00:54:40,420 --> 00:54:42,960
as much as I care about my own projects

1373
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:43,760
and my own work,

1374
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:53,481
I feel already the uplift to be better and to show off and make it a better version of what I'm doing because I know there's going to be more eyes on it.

1375
00:54:53,940 --> 00:55:00,760
So just wanted to, again, shout out that one of the best things is Matt has great taste and Flint has great taste.

1376
00:55:01,041 --> 00:55:05,340
And the people who come in, we're going to just keep encouraging that taste level to increase.

1377
00:55:06,481 --> 00:55:07,240
Yeah, that's amazing.

1378
00:55:07,240 --> 00:55:07,640
100%.

1379
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:08,360
Yeah, it's amazing.

1380
00:55:08,780 --> 00:55:09,380
Well done, guys.

1381
00:55:10,501 --> 00:55:11,260
Good job, Matt.

1382
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:12,380
Good job, Matt.

1383
00:55:12,380 --> 00:55:17,960
really really really well done and seriously if there's some way you can share like i understand

1384
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:24,960
you still did figma and web dev but like like aspirationally like helping someone design even

1385
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,680
if it's start like a simple website like that and i mean i know it's not simple but a website just

1386
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:35,780
like website like a video a guide something like how do you go from like i don't know anything to

1387
00:55:35,780 --> 00:55:40,041
i want a nice like here would be an interesting project and by the way i think there's like an

1388
00:55:40,041 --> 00:55:43,280
interesting demographic. I know we want to expand and get into the whole world and we're going to do

1389
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:47,640
that. But I was thinking about this for MDK. So Nick, if you're listening and then Matt as well,

1390
00:55:48,081 --> 00:55:51,180
one interesting demographic to start with is like, even though we don't want to like focus

1391
00:55:51,180 --> 00:55:56,280
on Bitcoin, there are a lot of people in the community who really like Bitcoin and find it

1392
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,820
for whatever reason, really amazing and are frustrated because they can't really contribute.

1393
00:55:59,940 --> 00:56:02,981
We've talked about some of these people are out there now spreading the good word of Satoshi to

1394
00:56:02,981 --> 00:56:07,660
sign up Square to accept Bitcoin payments. But like, I think a really cool, like I could even

1395
00:56:07,660 --> 00:56:12,140
imagine a challenge. It could be create your first app or even just something simple. Just even

1396
00:56:12,140 --> 00:56:16,981
remove that friction of here's something you can do. Create your own personal webpage.

1397
00:56:17,660 --> 00:56:21,440
Vibe code it. Make it look nice. How do you just create a simple personal webpage and maybe have a

1398
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,780
tip jar or something on there that uses Bitcoin? I don't know. I'm not saying that's the best idea.

1399
00:56:24,780 --> 00:56:30,041
It's a personal website. There are a lot of people out there who would probably put in a few hours

1400
00:56:30,041 --> 00:56:36,180
if there were a challenge, a guide that could at least show you from zero to completion on something

1401
00:56:36,180 --> 00:56:37,081
that looks beautiful.

1402
00:56:37,460 --> 00:56:38,860
So you feel like, oh, it's within like,

1403
00:56:38,900 --> 00:56:40,360
oh, maybe I could actually do something

1404
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:41,140
that approaches that.

1405
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:42,260
Yep.

1406
00:56:42,700 --> 00:56:44,400
And a personal website would be really nice, I think.

1407
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:46,180
I think it's a great starting point.

1408
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:47,740
Almost you could, you could almost imagine

1409
00:56:47,740 --> 00:56:51,061
if you otherwise are thinking about signing up

1410
00:56:51,061 --> 00:56:52,300
to like a Squarespace.

1411
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:53,081
Yes.

1412
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:54,081
Or what was the other one?

1413
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,041
You know, in fact, I've messed with Squarespace

1414
00:56:56,041 --> 00:56:58,900
for some projects and it always kind of,

1415
00:56:59,101 --> 00:57:01,101
you know, it does what it does and it's okay.

1416
00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:02,501
It's like, it gets it out there,

1417
00:57:02,541 --> 00:57:04,960
but it's so restrictive of what you can do

1418
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:06,740
that your hands feel very tied.

1419
00:57:07,041 --> 00:57:08,081
And I think if you were to say,

1420
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,440
if you wanted to build a Squarespace

1421
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:12,180
or maybe Webflow website,

1422
00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:14,581
instead, vibe code the website

1423
00:57:14,581 --> 00:57:16,460
and then you have full control to improve it.

1424
00:57:16,620 --> 00:57:18,081
You can change the design to do whatever you want.

1425
00:57:18,140 --> 00:57:20,400
You're not inside quite the sandbox that you are

1426
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:22,200
when you're working with the kind of traditional

1427
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,081
no-code, low-code tools.

1428
00:57:24,300 --> 00:57:24,440
Totally.

1429
00:57:24,740 --> 00:57:25,581
And then you could do,

1430
00:57:25,740 --> 00:57:27,001
if you're really into Bitcoin or an officer,

1431
00:57:27,101 --> 00:57:28,640
maybe you could try and have a cool feature on there.

1432
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:29,541
I will tell you,

1433
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:31,320
that is exactly the situation I'm in

1434
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:33,660
where literally to publish that energy essay

1435
00:57:33,660 --> 00:57:34,581
I did last time,

1436
00:57:34,581 --> 00:57:39,260
I had to like berate my designer to get on a call with me and be like, no, sit down,

1437
00:57:39,380 --> 00:57:43,440
publish this thing. It is not working. Like Webflow, have you guys used Webflow?

1438
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:44,360
I haven't.

1439
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:50,101
It's horrible. Just absolutely horrible. And we were on WordPress before, which was only

1440
00:57:50,101 --> 00:57:54,200
mildly horrible, but he uses Webflow. So he switched off to WordPress, which I didn't like,

1441
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,660
but at least it was open so I could figure it out. I don't know. Anyways, all that to say,

1442
00:57:58,220 --> 00:58:00,700
yeah, just like destroy the old web industry, please.

1443
00:58:00,700 --> 00:58:02,300
just to

1444
00:58:02,300 --> 00:58:03,240
the problem with

1445
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:03,900
building things

1446
00:58:03,900 --> 00:58:04,460
is that you're

1447
00:58:04,460 --> 00:58:05,140
always dealing

1448
00:58:05,140 --> 00:58:05,561
with something

1449
00:58:05,561 --> 00:58:06,120
that's broken

1450
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:08,240
like if it's not

1451
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:08,561
broken

1452
00:58:08,561 --> 00:58:09,680
then you know

1453
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:10,180
it's done

1454
00:58:10,180 --> 00:58:10,700
and you move on

1455
00:58:10,700 --> 00:58:10,940
to something

1456
00:58:10,940 --> 00:58:11,460
that is broken

1457
00:58:11,460 --> 00:58:11,981
yeah

1458
00:58:11,981 --> 00:58:12,800
I just checked

1459
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:13,720
to see how our

1460
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:15,420
live launch

1461
00:58:15,420 --> 00:58:16,021
is going

1462
00:58:16,021 --> 00:58:16,420
how's it going

1463
00:58:16,420 --> 00:58:17,620
I still love the concept

1464
00:58:17,620 --> 00:58:18,561
but in

1465
00:58:18,561 --> 00:58:19,541
but the results

1466
00:58:19,541 --> 00:58:20,340
are not there yet

1467
00:58:20,340 --> 00:58:21,061
so we have

1468
00:58:21,061 --> 00:58:22,940
zero people

1469
00:58:22,940 --> 00:58:23,460
have replied

1470
00:58:23,460 --> 00:58:24,280
to the spiral tweet

1471
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:24,820
zero

1472
00:58:24,820 --> 00:58:25,601
zero people

1473
00:58:25,601 --> 00:58:26,021
have replied

1474
00:58:26,021 --> 00:58:27,001
to Matt Belez's tweet

1475
00:58:27,001 --> 00:58:27,360
zero

1476
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:28,561
and our number

1477
00:58:28,561 --> 00:58:29,581
of live views

1478
00:58:29,581 --> 00:58:30,120
on X

1479
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,061
for this show is 10 times less than normal.

1480
00:58:34,740 --> 00:58:35,860
72 right now.

1481
00:58:35,981 --> 00:58:38,601
Usually we have 500 to 1,000 viewers live.

1482
00:58:39,180 --> 00:58:39,960
And it's 72.

1483
00:58:40,220 --> 00:58:40,740
So I don't know if...

1484
00:58:40,740 --> 00:58:42,360
Usher, are you able to see what we got on YouTube?

1485
00:58:42,981 --> 00:58:43,840
What's going on?

1486
00:58:43,940 --> 00:58:45,061
Is today like a holiday or something?

1487
00:58:45,061 --> 00:58:45,981
Well, it's a holiday weekend.

1488
00:58:46,340 --> 00:58:47,541
So maybe people left early.

1489
00:58:47,660 --> 00:58:48,001
I don't know.

1490
00:58:48,140 --> 00:58:49,501
But anyway, don't worry.

1491
00:58:50,561 --> 00:58:51,720
We actually...

1492
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:55,061
We don't want to admit like 1,000 people right now

1493
00:58:55,061 --> 00:58:55,501
into the community

1494
00:58:55,501 --> 00:58:57,240
because we want to set the tone and grow.

1495
00:58:57,581 --> 00:58:58,021
So that's fine.

1496
00:58:58,021 --> 00:59:00,021
I think we succeed by,

1497
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:02,481
because we already have

1498
00:59:02,481 --> 00:59:04,720
six or eight people

1499
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:06,780
already vetted in the community.

1500
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:08,481
We just need to build great apps,

1501
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:09,740
publish them,

1502
00:59:09,820 --> 00:59:11,660
and build the brand that way,

1503
00:59:11,780 --> 00:59:12,680
build awareness that way.

1504
00:59:12,900 --> 00:59:13,920
And it can be organic

1505
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:15,120
throughout this year.

1506
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:16,021
Cool.

1507
00:59:16,620 --> 00:59:17,041
I like it.

1508
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:18,440
One thing I was going to,

1509
00:59:18,521 --> 00:59:18,940
before we,

1510
00:59:19,081 --> 00:59:19,740
I know we've spent

1511
00:59:19,740 --> 00:59:21,360
most of the hours so far

1512
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:22,981
talking about Flint,

1513
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:24,460
but I guess in the broader context

1514
00:59:24,460 --> 00:59:25,501
of Vibe Coding,

1515
00:59:25,740 --> 00:59:26,460
Bitcoin and Oster,

1516
00:59:26,460 --> 00:59:34,120
But before we move off Flint, I think there was a goal that, if I recall, was part of the website.

1517
00:59:35,521 --> 00:59:36,840
Is that true, Steve?

1518
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,140
And can you confirm or remind us what the overall goal is?

1519
00:59:40,180 --> 00:59:41,420
How would we judge success?

1520
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:42,700
Oh, wait a minute.

1521
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:46,240
Yeah, I'll pull it up.

1522
00:59:46,601 --> 00:59:50,380
But the overall mission, the overall, like, did we achieve success?

1523
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:56,160
Is there actually like a very popular application built from the Flint community in the world?

1524
00:59:56,460 --> 00:59:59,340
and obviously we're nowhere near that yet,

1525
00:59:59,481 --> 01:00:02,101
but that would be success.

1526
01:00:03,021 --> 01:00:04,561
And there's all kinds of steps to get there.

1527
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:06,481
There's goals to get there.

1528
01:00:08,101 --> 01:00:09,820
Yeah, let me pull up the goal.

1529
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:11,320
I think I mentioned some of the goals already.

1530
01:00:12,700 --> 01:00:14,380
I thought there was one overarching goal.

1531
01:00:14,561 --> 01:00:16,180
Yeah, that one sounds like what I was thinking.

1532
01:00:16,620 --> 01:00:18,820
Yeah, that's the overarching one.

1533
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:20,521
If there's one breakout app and breakouts...

1534
01:00:20,521 --> 01:00:24,280
Let me log in through Discord, not Noster.

1535
01:00:24,481 --> 01:00:24,981
Fuck that.

1536
01:00:24,981 --> 01:00:26,940
That old world selling.

1537
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:28,200
Gold. All right, here we go.

1538
01:00:28,460 --> 01:00:31,200
To build compelling products that show what's now possible.

1539
01:00:31,581 --> 01:00:34,800
Number two, to help and learn from peers to elevate our game.

1540
01:00:35,420 --> 01:00:37,620
Number three, to inspire a new generation of builders.

1541
01:00:38,101 --> 01:00:41,420
Number four, to see new businesses created as a result of our community.

1542
01:00:42,460 --> 01:00:45,900
Number five, to grow usage of Bitcoin in new and interesting ways.

1543
01:00:45,900 --> 01:00:49,940
And number six, to discover new demand for and gaps in emerging protocols.

1544
01:00:50,180 --> 01:00:50,880
That's kind of what I mentioned.

1545
01:00:51,180 --> 01:00:51,280
Yeah.

1546
01:00:51,660 --> 01:00:53,101
So that's our six goals.

1547
01:00:53,101 --> 01:00:53,720
but you know

1548
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:54,440
we're gonna have

1549
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:54,601
new

1550
01:00:54,601 --> 01:00:55,240
that's

1551
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:56,240
this is all from

1552
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:57,320
Matt and DK and me

1553
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:58,041
but we're gonna have

1554
01:00:58,041 --> 01:00:59,541
new smart

1555
01:00:59,541 --> 01:01:00,081
ambitious

1556
01:01:00,081 --> 01:01:01,760
new people

1557
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:02,481
and new ideas

1558
01:01:02,481 --> 01:01:03,640
so we'll keep iterating

1559
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:04,260
and keep improving

1560
01:01:04,260 --> 01:01:04,820
sweet

1561
01:01:04,820 --> 01:01:05,561
alright

1562
01:01:05,561 --> 01:01:06,981
my personal goal

1563
01:01:06,981 --> 01:01:08,021
is to get something on there

1564
01:01:08,021 --> 01:01:09,640
I don't know how long

1565
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:10,300
it's gonna take me

1566
01:01:10,300 --> 01:01:11,481
alright

1567
01:01:11,481 --> 01:01:12,780
get your application in

1568
01:01:12,780 --> 01:01:13,740
well I'm

1569
01:01:13,740 --> 01:01:14,800
I'm gonna be getting you

1570
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:15,680
to be my personal tutor

1571
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:16,160
on this thing

1572
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:17,280
alright

1573
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:18,160
alright

1574
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:19,640
this is the big topic

1575
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:20,220
I cared about

1576
01:01:20,220 --> 01:01:20,800
I know you guys

1577
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:21,601
have some other stuff

1578
01:01:21,601 --> 01:01:29,860
i think i i think maybe i think max max has things he's excited about should we start there i've got

1579
01:01:29,860 --> 01:01:34,900
two big ones i guess they're kind of related you want to start with the alpha yeah yeah okay

1580
01:01:34,900 --> 01:01:42,101
well or you can set up the context for it i i i watched the clip you shared a a sailor clip

1581
01:01:42,101 --> 01:01:46,640
that i think he was on what bitcoin did and you had a clip that you shared right

1582
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:50,260
well i didn't share it steve shared he was being a fan boy steve was saying

1583
01:01:50,260 --> 01:01:52,920
my doppelganger is talking in

1584
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:53,400
I love it

1585
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:56,340
like wish you guys would be

1586
01:01:56,340 --> 01:01:58,880
a little less critical of him all the time

1587
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:00,360
like have you noticed how

1588
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:01,581
handsome he looks

1589
01:02:01,581 --> 01:02:06,260
that's what I recall

1590
01:02:06,260 --> 01:02:07,240
is that right Steve?

1591
01:02:07,521 --> 01:02:08,360
something like that

1592
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:12,140
I think on this show I have to wear the hat of being

1593
01:02:12,140 --> 01:02:14,021
a critic of Sailor

1594
01:02:14,021 --> 01:02:15,001
because you two

1595
01:02:15,001 --> 01:02:17,780
sometimes fawn over him

1596
01:02:17,780 --> 01:02:18,400
okay

1597
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:37,120
Yeah. Well, let me set it up a little bit because I think it gets into the two topics I want. So I want to talk a bit about what I've learned from Saylor in general, particularly on the collateral piece, which I think is very interesting. And then move that into the GPU marketplace discussion, which I hope is like a longer term discussion we continue to build on. But I think it's very related.

1598
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:43,640
So, you know, the clip Steve shared, some other people had shared, it's like, eh, Middle East

1599
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:47,001
Sailor is being a little bit of a dick to Danny on what Bitcoin did and giving him a hard time

1600
01:02:47,001 --> 01:02:51,300
about asking about the treasury companies and whatnot. Was it necessary for him to be mean?

1601
01:02:51,420 --> 01:02:58,420
Probably not. Was he right? Yes. That's my takeaway. And so what have I learned? First of all,

1602
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:05,180
I just want to say backing up and taking out the 10,000 foot view, the more I really listened to

1603
01:03:05,180 --> 01:03:07,860
and I've listened to a lot of his podcasts. And I'm not doing this as a fanboy. Like,

1604
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:12,041
he's the Bitcoin guy. Fuck yeah. Like there was, by the way, on WaveWake way back in the day,

1605
01:03:12,081 --> 01:03:14,960
I remember I tried to share this to people and like the number one song in there was people

1606
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:20,740
singing a sea shanty to Michael Saylor. And it was super weird. Super, super, super, super weird.

1607
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:27,160
And like, yeah, I'm not a cult fan of him, but I, you say game recognized game. I see a great mind,

1608
01:03:27,380 --> 01:03:31,960
a truly, truly great mind. And every time I listened to him, I learned something new.

1609
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:37,140
um you know and by the way forget the clip where he was being a little rude um and again that

1610
01:03:37,140 --> 01:03:42,160
doesn't excuse being rude like it's probably not necessary but at the end of the episode um he talks

1611
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:46,860
about uh books that he's read like history books and there's the wilder hand like a world history

1612
01:03:46,860 --> 01:03:52,581
11 volumes um and uh marie rothbard's economic histories and talk about up my game like shit i

1613
01:03:52,581 --> 01:03:59,300
really need to be reading those um you know his understanding of cycles and world history and how

1614
01:03:59,300 --> 01:04:04,280
things go, like how there's nothing new under the sun. We just kind of rinse and repeat. It's a

1615
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:06,740
little different every time because it's more of a spiral than a circle because you've news

1616
01:04:06,740 --> 01:04:10,180
technology, but it's always rhyming. And, you know, one example he gave.

1617
01:04:10,180 --> 01:04:10,481
Spiral.

1618
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:19,840
Coincidence? No such thing. That, you know, he was just kind of mentioning the point that like,

1619
01:04:19,900 --> 01:04:24,680
you know, you know, the Bitcoin community is always like 1971. Like that was the year. Everything

1620
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:28,720
went crazy. And he was like, dude, there have been 1971s all the time. Like the story of

1621
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:33,780
every civilization and every sub-civilization is someone gets in power, they get a little too much

1622
01:04:33,780 --> 01:04:37,541
power, they get a little too full of themselves. They think they can just like make something out

1623
01:04:37,541 --> 01:04:41,141
of nothing in the case of, you know, what we always talk about. Hey guys, let's just print

1624
01:04:41,141 --> 01:04:44,621
some money. And he talks about, you know, the colonies like the, I guess, Massachusetts Bay

1625
01:04:44,621 --> 01:04:48,101
Colony and all the early colonies. That's also in my mind because I've been watching that fabulous

1626
01:04:48,101 --> 01:04:53,581
Revolutionary War thing. Ken Burns, it's really excellent. I recommend it. Anyways,

1627
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:57,940
and he was just like, there was like over a 20 or 30 year period, like multiple times

1628
01:04:57,940 --> 01:05:01,041
when a single colony tried to debase the currency

1629
01:05:01,041 --> 01:05:03,800
multiple different times over a 20 to 30 year period

1630
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:04,800
to go fund a war.

1631
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:06,601
And every time, of course, ended and failed

1632
01:05:06,601 --> 01:05:07,880
because of every time,

1633
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:09,621
you can't just make something out of nothing, right?

1634
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,300
So that was like a really interesting takeaway for me.

1635
01:05:13,021 --> 01:05:14,740
And just, yeah, like basically how like

1636
01:05:14,740 --> 01:05:18,660
the more you can like spot where we are in the history rhyme,

1637
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:20,320
the better you can sort of plan for things.

1638
01:05:20,420 --> 01:05:22,141
Okay, so that's just me saying like,

1639
01:05:22,141 --> 01:05:25,860
I like him for the reason that he has a great mind.

1640
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:27,561
I really, really believe that.

1641
01:05:27,561 --> 01:05:31,141
And I am impressed by his breadth of reading, knowledge and history.

1642
01:05:31,521 --> 01:05:33,101
But what new did you learn?

1643
01:05:33,220 --> 01:05:40,521
So the new thing that I've learned is, you know, increasingly, it's something that I've learned a little bit more and more.

1644
01:05:40,521 --> 01:05:46,380
I think it just keeps hitting me in the head from every podcast I listen to, is thinking about where we are in the adoption cycle.

1645
01:05:46,940 --> 01:05:47,061
Okay.

1646
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:50,880
And, you know, it doesn't mean you can't push things in the margins like we've talked about.

1647
01:05:50,940 --> 01:05:52,121
And I obviously want Bitcoin to be money.

1648
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:54,200
And I think it's great that we're pushing for it in so many different ways.

1649
01:05:54,220 --> 01:05:55,561
And we can probably influence that a bit.

1650
01:05:55,561 --> 01:06:01,180
but ultimately what I've come to realize from Saylor that I talked about the end of last podcast as

1651
01:06:01,180 --> 01:06:05,860
well is if you zoom out and you take off what you want to be true about the world and you just see

1652
01:06:05,860 --> 01:06:10,220
what is true about the world what we know is that bitcoin payments have not taken off yet doesn't

1653
01:06:10,220 --> 01:06:16,521
mean it won't happen doesn't mean we can't help but what we do know is bitcoin is collateral and

1654
01:06:16,521 --> 01:06:20,860
if you understand the broader financial ecosystem and how the world actually works and how it might

1655
01:06:20,860 --> 01:06:24,900
work in the future, you can start to see where that collateral really starts to matter.

1656
01:06:25,061 --> 01:06:25,960
And like, you know, as I...

1657
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:29,680
Real quick though, I mean, first of all, I'm an enormous believer in Bitcoin as collateral.

1658
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:30,001
Right.

1659
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:33,641
But I mean, I wouldn't say it's taken off yet either.

1660
01:06:34,300 --> 01:06:38,740
I mean, I think the problem is it'll take off sooner than payments, but...

1661
01:06:38,740 --> 01:06:40,320
What's the micro strategy market cap right now?

1662
01:06:40,420 --> 01:06:41,501
Like pretty massive, I would say.

1663
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:43,220
Whatever, I can go and look.

1664
01:06:43,340 --> 01:06:45,400
And yes, it's still in the early stages of takeoff.

1665
01:06:46,121 --> 01:06:48,260
What I'm increasingly realizing...

1666
01:06:48,260 --> 01:06:49,380
What do you mean by collateral though?

1667
01:06:49,380 --> 01:06:52,400
I thought I was thinking like you use it as collateral for a loan.

1668
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:54,521
Well, you can use it for collateral for lots of things, right?

1669
01:06:54,561 --> 01:06:57,940
So we've seen it definitely take off as collateral for like consumer lending.

1670
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:00,940
And every time that's happened, there's been rehab obligations blowing up.

1671
01:07:00,981 --> 01:07:01,960
That's why we invested in lava.

1672
01:07:02,420 --> 01:07:02,960
Fingers crossed.

1673
01:07:03,180 --> 01:07:04,420
We don't see that happen again now.

1674
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:10,160
But what he's basically realizing is like, he made this point where he was like, listen,

1675
01:07:10,820 --> 01:07:14,160
you know, instead of going to all the banks of the world, and he made this point, he was

1676
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,180
like Morgan Stanley or whatever I think it was, funded the civil war.

1677
01:07:17,180 --> 01:07:21,581
Like probably not going to go and just like up in power structures that old every once

1678
01:07:21,581 --> 01:07:22,860
in a while, maybe, but probably not.

1679
01:07:23,460 --> 01:07:26,820
And instead of going and saying, I've got this new bank and y'all should come bank with

1680
01:07:26,820 --> 01:07:27,220
me or whatever.

1681
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:33,141
He's like, how do I take what I found, which is this incredible, pristine digital capital,

1682
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:38,720
refine it into a form of collateral or credit that they can use to be successful.

1683
01:07:39,300 --> 01:07:43,720
And one thing that he said that really stuck with me is the world is built on capital, but

1684
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:44,601
it runs on credit.

1685
01:07:44,601 --> 01:08:09,720
And so what I think he's realizing here is the big, put aside what we want to see about the world, the really, really big business opportunities measured purely in total volume or total profit is if you can go and take that old dying world structure and supercharge it with collateral and credit that are backed by Bitcoin, then you will make the most money.

1686
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:39,700
And so what I'm realizing is, you know, I'm starting to intuitively understand better what he's doing, what he means stripping volatility. You know, he is speculative attacking the old world treasury market, which is crazy to me, by offering stretch. Stretch is the key. This 11% yield that all you have to believe if it's 6x over collateralized by Bitcoin is that Bitcoin's not going to drop whatever it is, 85, 90% for four years or whatever that period is.

1687
01:08:39,721 --> 01:08:44,001
that's all you have to believe, which I think we all clearly do. And if you do believe that,

1688
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:49,601
then like you would be a fool not to buy the product that gives you 11% or, you know,

1689
01:08:49,660 --> 01:08:53,840
maybe it comes down 10%, 9% versus 3% or 4% in the old world. Like it's just like,

1690
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:59,681
it's like so black, white, right? That's all you have to believe. And so increasingly,

1691
01:09:00,181 --> 01:09:06,860
it's not so black and white. It's more gray because, because you, you, why do you buy 11%

1692
01:09:06,860 --> 01:09:12,320
yield if you believe Bitcoin is going to return 30 or 40% for the next 10 or 20 years? Why would

1693
01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:19,800
you buy 11% yield? Because you have to meet the old existing world structure where it is. And I

1694
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:25,020
think this is his genius. Like this is one of his grand insights. I feel like I'm getting more

1695
01:09:25,020 --> 01:09:28,860
mature listening to Sailor. Like younger me would have been like, no, fuck it. We're just going to

1696
01:09:28,860 --> 01:09:33,740
like up in everything, flip the tables. Here we come. Bitcoin and everything. And it's like maybe,

1697
01:09:33,740 --> 01:09:38,660
but like realistically what's going to happen is we're going to say old world structure first of

1698
01:09:38,660 --> 01:09:42,601
all and increasingly this is why i understand why i think he's frustrated some bitcoiners it's like

1699
01:09:42,601 --> 01:09:46,601
you don't even want that world like it sounds romantic and like a libertarian anoran fantasy

1700
01:09:46,601 --> 01:09:52,340
but like if you go and flip all the tables do you want to live in mad max probably not like like as

1701
01:09:52,340 --> 01:09:55,880
much as we say the government is bad the state is bad power structures are bad it's like you know

1702
01:09:55,880 --> 01:10:00,001
what's even worse a power vacuum where all of a sudden you got people riding around with like

1703
01:10:00,001 --> 01:10:07,761
whatever rifles and shot so to put simply though like the um to answer the question why stretch over

1704
01:10:07,761 --> 01:10:12,800
buying bitcoin yeah people have different needs right and i'll get someone just asked you do you

1705
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:23,590
own stretch max you don have to answer that but i i speak to of the Bitcoin he owns at Stretch Absolutely I treasure it

1706
01:10:23,730 --> 01:10:32,130
So the money that Presidia Bitcoin has on hand, obviously there's a belief in Bitcoin.

1707
01:10:32,391 --> 01:10:34,530
There's a belief in 30% returns or whatever.

1708
01:10:34,530 --> 01:10:39,010
but there's actual needs for dollars.

1709
01:10:39,510 --> 01:10:41,291
We have liabilities in dollars

1710
01:10:41,291 --> 01:10:44,810
in weeks, months, type of time frame.

1711
01:10:45,210 --> 01:10:47,871
So we don't want to be all in on Bitcoin.

1712
01:10:48,490 --> 01:10:49,871
We need something less volatile.

1713
01:10:50,030 --> 01:10:51,431
So some of it is in Bitcoin

1714
01:10:51,431 --> 01:10:53,810
and some of it is in stretch.

1715
01:10:54,070 --> 01:10:54,190
Yes.

1716
01:10:54,450 --> 01:10:57,150
So per city Bitcoin does hold stretch.

1717
01:10:57,450 --> 01:10:58,090
And to give you,

1718
01:10:58,230 --> 01:10:59,791
so the bigger pools of capital,

1719
01:10:59,891 --> 01:11:00,950
which we've talked about is,

1720
01:11:01,510 --> 01:11:04,150
we all know someone who's very involved

1721
01:11:04,150 --> 01:11:08,190
with that company because he can't buy Bitcoin at his giant equity, public equity fund. He just

1722
01:11:08,190 --> 01:11:12,251
can't. And so there's, you know, I forgot we did the numbers last time, but like, what is like a

1723
01:11:12,251 --> 01:11:16,110
third of the world's capital is sitting in like public equity funds or something huge. They can't

1724
01:11:16,110 --> 01:11:21,251
buy that. A third is sitting in the debt funds. I'm not an expert on this stuff, but like the

1725
01:11:21,251 --> 01:11:26,550
point is like really, really, really big slugs of capital. Yeah, there's capital pools that are

1726
01:11:26,550 --> 01:11:32,411
locked up with mandates. They have a mandate and they have to play within that mandate. And so

1727
01:11:32,411 --> 01:11:37,871
those mandates are sticky. Yes. And that's what creates the opportunity to create products that

1728
01:11:37,871 --> 01:11:43,010
fit in those mandates. Correct. And so like the thing that I would say about micro strategy that

1729
01:11:43,010 --> 01:11:46,411
I think is interesting is that like it just understands what the world, how the world is

1730
01:11:46,411 --> 01:11:50,351
structured today and where the mandates are. And then it provides products that fulfill those

1731
01:11:50,351 --> 01:11:56,070
mandates, even if you don't fully get to self-custody or Bitcoin because of the mandate of

1732
01:11:56,070 --> 01:12:01,010
the capital pool that you're managing. And I would say there's also sort of a gradation of that,

1733
01:12:01,010 --> 01:12:10,470
There are some people that maybe are super orange-pilled, sitting and managing billions, if not trillions of dollars that are locked up in funds that can't buy Bitcoin.

1734
01:12:10,710 --> 01:12:12,590
Okay, so that's one area you go after.

1735
01:12:13,070 --> 01:12:17,210
And then there's also people, let's say, on the middle of the curve that are like, you know, I think it's interesting.

1736
01:12:17,490 --> 01:12:18,530
It's probably not going to zero.

1737
01:12:18,751 --> 01:12:19,770
Are they ready to sell their kidney?

1738
01:12:19,931 --> 01:12:20,610
Probably not.

1739
01:12:21,050 --> 01:12:22,751
But would they like some exposure?

1740
01:12:22,891 --> 01:12:23,050
Yeah.

1741
01:12:23,431 --> 01:12:27,911
I guess there's different people at different stages on their Bitcoin journey with different mandates.

1742
01:12:27,911 --> 01:12:46,791
And critically, those people manage much larger pools of capital than, you know, we as the general public, frankly, even like realize exists. And I think what Saylor's superpower is, is he's kind of the, you know, the elder statesman in the room that for whatever reason, you know, he's still on the edge with technology and he understands why Bitcoin is amazing.

1743
01:12:46,791 --> 01:12:49,310
and he's been, you know, frankly old enough

1744
01:12:49,310 --> 01:12:51,150
and been through the traditional world enough

1745
01:12:51,150 --> 01:12:53,230
that he understands that world extremely well

1746
01:12:53,230 --> 01:12:55,891
and he's building a bridge between the new and the old

1747
01:12:55,891 --> 01:12:58,371
and by sitting on that bridge and building that bridge,

1748
01:12:58,690 --> 01:12:59,770
you know, and I thought it's very instructive.

1749
01:12:59,851 --> 01:13:01,050
People always ask him, well, what's next?

1750
01:13:01,130 --> 01:13:02,010
What are you gonna do with all this Bitcoin?

1751
01:13:02,130 --> 01:13:03,310
He's like, dude, you don't understand.

1752
01:13:03,710 --> 01:13:07,310
Like if I can bring 10% of the world's, you know,

1753
01:13:07,510 --> 01:13:10,590
bond market to me, I am making whatever it is,

1754
01:13:10,710 --> 01:13:13,030
trillions of dollars a year in revenue

1755
01:13:13,030 --> 01:13:15,331
with basically no cost.

1756
01:13:15,331 --> 01:13:16,871
So it's almost pure profit.

1757
01:13:17,030 --> 01:13:19,110
It would be the single greatest business of all time.

1758
01:13:19,190 --> 01:13:21,070
Now, I think the AI businesses can overcome that.

1759
01:13:21,170 --> 01:13:23,070
And I think that's a separate conversation.

1760
01:13:23,251 --> 01:13:24,871
I think, by the way, there's risk

1761
01:13:24,871 --> 01:13:26,990
that maybe he's not even fully buying into,

1762
01:13:27,090 --> 01:13:29,070
which is the black swan risk of like AGI,

1763
01:13:29,431 --> 01:13:31,150
you know, super intelligence take off.

1764
01:13:31,210 --> 01:13:32,670
And that's its own really interesting conversation

1765
01:13:32,670 --> 01:13:33,331
that we should discuss.

1766
01:13:33,610 --> 01:13:34,950
You're saying that we no longer need money.

1767
01:13:35,690 --> 01:13:37,751
I mean, that's a possibility.

1768
01:13:38,431 --> 01:13:41,090
From your favorite dude you fawn over, but.

1769
01:13:41,871 --> 01:13:44,190
I wouldn't say that he was wrong if that's the case.

1770
01:13:44,190 --> 01:13:47,431
If we don't need money, then like the whole thing, it's just like a waste of time, right?

1771
01:13:47,670 --> 01:13:47,791
Right.

1772
01:13:48,050 --> 01:13:53,690
But again, what I want to come back to and just say on that is like, I think what a lot

1773
01:13:53,690 --> 01:13:59,791
of Bitcoiners miss is, you know, this dude put aside the way he communicates it, which

1774
01:13:59,791 --> 01:14:01,130
could probably be a little nicer sometimes.

1775
01:14:01,411 --> 01:14:02,871
But this dude understands the old world.

1776
01:14:02,931 --> 01:14:05,070
He knows how to build that bridge and he knows what they need.

1777
01:14:05,431 --> 01:14:08,730
And I think he said something really nice, which is instead of fighting the old world,

1778
01:14:09,070 --> 01:14:11,490
empower them to win and win a big chunk.

1779
01:14:11,590 --> 01:14:12,590
And that's the beauty of Bitcoin.

1780
01:14:12,590 --> 01:14:19,090
I've always thought of Bitcoin as a tool of alchemy for selfishness and self-interest to sort of communal interest.

1781
01:14:19,230 --> 01:14:26,871
It's a way to get people to say, hey, instead of me just taking your shit, which is kind of the history of power and war and world,

1782
01:14:26,990 --> 01:14:32,030
it's like, let me make you an equity holder and the same thing I'm an equity holder.

1783
01:14:32,210 --> 01:14:33,871
Let's win really big together.

1784
01:14:34,431 --> 01:14:36,871
Yeah, and Bitcoin is ultimately equity for the whole world.

1785
01:14:37,550 --> 01:14:38,070
Exactly.

1786
01:14:38,710 --> 01:14:40,610
It's equity for the whole world's needs and demands.

1787
01:14:40,610 --> 01:14:43,351
It's an equity of the entire world's capital stock.

1788
01:14:43,351 --> 01:15:09,610
I think I, and so I didn't watch the whole episode, but I only watched that one clip that I think was quite contentious. But I actually, what I've learned something new from that clip, which I think I changed my mind about in the last year or so, which is I had thought of MicroStrategy as like effectively the leader and kind of the dominant player in the Bitcoin treasury thing. And that sort of all the others are sort of ankle biters and, you know, sort of competitors in a sense.

1789
01:15:09,610 --> 01:15:34,950
And I think he articulated there that it's not a competition, it's more of a collaboration. So it's effectively that same point you're making. He didn't quite say it as eloquently as I think we've come up here, which is some sort of equity in the world, the world's future, and all the economic output of the world. But I think that's what he's scratching at here when he talks about MetaPlanet being not a competitor, but a collaborator.

1790
01:15:35,871 --> 01:15:36,931
So I've changed my mind on that.

1791
01:15:37,030 --> 01:15:38,470
Actually, I still don't get that.

1792
01:15:38,610 --> 01:15:39,251
So you're going to have to help me.

1793
01:15:39,590 --> 01:15:40,871
Now, we talked about it on the show before.

1794
01:15:41,190 --> 01:15:44,411
There's a couple different types of treasury strategies.

1795
01:15:44,670 --> 01:15:47,130
We called it the strategy one and the block one, right?

1796
01:15:47,130 --> 01:15:52,070
Because both strategy and block introduced Bitcoin on their balance sheet

1797
01:15:52,070 --> 01:15:55,630
within a month of each other in 2020.

1798
01:15:57,070 --> 01:16:01,130
I think most people know what strategy is.

1799
01:16:01,130 --> 01:16:09,310
strategy is like leverage like smart calculated leverage but leverage um whereas the the block

1800
01:16:09,310 --> 01:16:15,730
strategy is like put one to ten percent of your treasury in bitcoin as as like a as like a hedge

1801
01:16:15,730 --> 01:16:24,970
um and those two are have very different dynamics so i totally believe in a world of we're all in

1802
01:16:24,970 --> 01:16:31,010
this together let's invest in each other's like the same equity or whatever if every company puts

1803
01:16:31,010 --> 01:16:32,871
1-10% of its treasury

1804
01:16:32,871 --> 01:16:35,371
or even up to

1805
01:16:35,371 --> 01:16:37,110
100% of the treasury in Bitcoin

1806
01:16:37,110 --> 01:16:39,010
they're not competing

1807
01:16:39,010 --> 01:16:41,150
like if Tesla is doing that

1808
01:16:41,150 --> 01:16:42,570
SpaceX and Block

1809
01:16:42,570 --> 01:16:45,150
that doesn't increase the competition between

1810
01:16:45,150 --> 01:16:46,891
these companies just because they're holding Bitcoin

1811
01:16:46,891 --> 01:16:48,911
however if

1812
01:16:48,911 --> 01:16:50,990
every company is levered

1813
01:16:50,990 --> 01:16:52,670
over 100% they're

1814
01:16:52,670 --> 01:16:54,911
introducing all these securities like

1815
01:16:54,911 --> 01:16:56,751
Stretch etc then

1816
01:16:56,751 --> 01:16:58,791
they're absolutely competing with each other

1817
01:16:58,791 --> 01:17:00,331
and I've argued from

1818
01:17:00,331 --> 01:17:02,450
the first episode of this show

1819
01:17:02,450 --> 01:17:04,851
that it makes no sense for Facebook to do this,

1820
01:17:04,911 --> 01:17:06,210
like Max was arguing.

1821
01:17:06,891 --> 01:17:07,751
I still think he does.

1822
01:17:08,831 --> 01:17:10,391
It makes no sense to me.

1823
01:17:10,851 --> 01:17:12,990
So A, it makes no sense.

1824
01:17:13,270 --> 01:17:15,070
B, I don't think every company can do it.

1825
01:17:15,090 --> 01:17:17,230
I think only one or a handful can.

1826
01:17:17,690 --> 01:17:19,751
And C, they're absolutely competing with each other.

1827
01:17:19,751 --> 01:17:21,090
So help me understand how that's going.

1828
01:17:21,090 --> 01:17:23,810
So Steve, I'm actually, I'm team Steve on this point

1829
01:17:23,810 --> 01:17:25,391
and have been for a long time,

1830
01:17:25,490 --> 01:17:26,510
basically since episode one,

1831
01:17:26,610 --> 01:17:28,170
which is I don't think Facebook

1832
01:17:28,170 --> 01:17:29,530
should just go all in Bitcoin

1833
01:17:29,530 --> 01:17:31,510
because they have a great business

1834
01:17:31,510 --> 01:17:33,291
or potentially great business.

1835
01:17:33,510 --> 01:17:35,050
It has existed for a while.

1836
01:17:35,210 --> 01:17:36,391
They could do better with Bitcoin too.

1837
01:17:37,030 --> 01:17:37,570
Well, sure.

1838
01:17:37,690 --> 01:17:39,411
But that's not what people are investing in.

1839
01:17:39,470 --> 01:17:40,150
They're investing in,

1840
01:17:40,710 --> 01:17:41,851
are they going to figure out AI?

1841
01:17:42,090 --> 01:17:42,871
That is the question.

1842
01:17:43,110 --> 01:17:43,730
And also when you say

1843
01:17:43,730 --> 01:17:44,851
they do better in Bitcoin,

1844
01:17:44,990 --> 01:17:45,630
what do you mean by that?

1845
01:17:45,690 --> 01:17:48,210
Do you think they should be levered on Bitcoin?

1846
01:17:48,891 --> 01:17:49,291
Or do you think,

1847
01:17:49,411 --> 01:17:51,230
should they adopt the strategy strategy

1848
01:17:51,230 --> 01:17:52,331
or the block strategy?

1849
01:17:52,550 --> 01:17:53,070
Okay, so I,

1850
01:17:54,170 --> 01:17:56,470
let me answer that by saying,

1851
01:17:56,570 --> 01:17:57,150
and look,

1852
01:17:57,590 --> 01:17:58,550
I get what you're saying.

1853
01:17:58,550 --> 01:18:10,590
And if your point is for a company specifically in the AI race that having anything to do with Bitcoin is going to detract from their ability to get capital to build energy infrastructure, which, by the way, that's where I want to go.

1854
01:18:10,650 --> 01:18:12,851
We're probably not going to time to the GPU marketplace deeply today.

1855
01:18:12,970 --> 01:18:15,070
But like, look at who Meta has been hiring yesterday.

1856
01:18:15,230 --> 01:18:17,411
Look at Daniel Gross's post on Twitter for what he wants.

1857
01:18:17,510 --> 01:18:19,891
It's trading markets, energy infrastructure.

1858
01:18:20,371 --> 01:18:21,090
So like, OK, fine.

1859
01:18:21,270 --> 01:18:22,630
I'm willing to see that point.

1860
01:18:22,630 --> 01:18:29,710
If any touching of Bitcoin, which by the way, I think they'll have to soon, that's my big idea now, will detract from their ability to win that race plan.

1861
01:18:30,291 --> 01:18:39,331
What I would say, Steve, to your point is, and this is what I wanted to get at earlier that I learned new from the Sailor podcast, is there's not just the Sailor strategy and the block strategy.

1862
01:18:39,650 --> 01:18:41,630
I think there's an infinite number of strategies in between.

1863
01:18:41,770 --> 01:18:43,411
That's what I'm seeing more and more.

1864
01:18:43,650 --> 01:18:49,831
So what he said yesterday, now, I would obviously evaluate every treasury company independently.

1865
01:18:50,030 --> 01:18:51,931
Most of them, I think, are probably run by teams.

1866
01:18:51,931 --> 01:18:53,751
I would not personally invest in, right?

1867
01:18:53,891 --> 01:18:54,251
For sure.

1868
01:18:54,950 --> 01:18:56,251
That's my decision as an investor.

1869
01:18:57,050 --> 01:18:58,670
But we've already decided,

1870
01:18:58,871 --> 01:19:00,910
does it make sense as an example for MetaPlanet

1871
01:19:00,910 --> 01:19:02,851
to exist alongside strategy?

1872
01:19:02,910 --> 01:19:03,190
For sure.

1873
01:19:03,410 --> 01:19:05,391
Because they're in a trap capital market, Japan.

1874
01:19:05,690 --> 01:19:06,230
The other's not there.

1875
01:19:06,670 --> 01:19:07,331
So okay.

1876
01:19:07,391 --> 01:19:09,090
We all agree on that though.

1877
01:19:09,471 --> 01:19:11,650
So the next thing that I learned from his podcast

1878
01:19:11,650 --> 01:19:16,431
was that there are going to be infinite opportunities

1879
01:19:16,431 --> 01:19:18,351
and he rattled off like 10 of them

1880
01:19:18,351 --> 01:19:21,270
of where you can use better capital

1881
01:19:21,270 --> 01:19:23,770
to offer a better product.

1882
01:19:24,150 --> 01:19:26,110
So he's going after credit,

1883
01:19:26,910 --> 01:19:29,310
capital to credit.

1884
01:19:29,990 --> 01:19:31,650
I didn't think we were going to make it

1885
01:19:31,650 --> 01:19:34,230
through this segment without an impression or two.

1886
01:19:35,291 --> 01:19:35,990
You're welcome.

1887
01:19:36,130 --> 01:19:36,871
That's for you.

1888
01:19:37,630 --> 01:19:39,971
But what he also mentioned is there's other businesses

1889
01:19:39,971 --> 01:19:42,851
where pristine digital capital or credit

1890
01:19:42,851 --> 01:19:44,530
could make you a winner as well.

1891
01:19:44,990 --> 01:19:46,291
One example is insurance.

1892
01:19:46,910 --> 01:19:48,871
We're going to see an insurance company,

1893
01:19:48,971 --> 01:19:50,610
and I bet, I mean, no insider info or whatever,

1894
01:19:50,610 --> 01:19:52,971
but like, I mean, I think Nydig's already pretty big in insurance.

1895
01:19:53,070 --> 01:19:54,931
Wouldn't be surprised if they're the big winner there, ultimately,

1896
01:19:55,391 --> 01:19:58,590
of figuring out how you can use having perfect, pristine collateral

1897
01:19:58,590 --> 01:20:02,310
to underwrite cheaper policies or better policies.

1898
01:20:02,431 --> 01:20:04,050
So there will be insurance companies that use Bitcoin.

1899
01:20:04,570 --> 01:20:06,410
And I don't think MicroStrategy is going to go after that.

1900
01:20:06,751 --> 01:20:07,871
He literally said that.

1901
01:20:07,990 --> 01:20:10,710
Like, people get whatever riled up listening to me, whatever.

1902
01:20:10,891 --> 01:20:11,950
Like, listen to what he says.

1903
01:20:11,990 --> 01:20:14,490
He gave 10 ideas for a company.

1904
01:20:14,990 --> 01:20:18,391
The problem is they're not ideas that we as like kind of like Silicon Valley,

1905
01:20:18,391 --> 01:20:20,410
computer and builder-y type people are used to.

1906
01:20:20,610 --> 01:20:26,331
financial ideas but but my point what i'm those are real things you do well what i'm learning

1907
01:20:26,331 --> 01:20:30,070
increasingly from learning from sailor and again everyone has to make their own decision like

1908
01:20:30,070 --> 01:20:34,391
you know are you or i the right person to start that company absolutely not like our efforts are

1909
01:20:34,391 --> 01:20:38,130
much better spent doing things that are like increasing in my case more on the energy side

1910
01:20:38,130 --> 01:20:44,070
lately the builder stuff like great so everyone's doing their part but like what i'm increasingly

1911
01:20:44,070 --> 01:20:48,371
learning from sailor is if you just want to make money put everything else aside you just want to

1912
01:20:48,371 --> 01:20:53,530
make money. Go where the opportunity is ready. Is it ready for payments yet? No, we're trying to

1913
01:20:53,530 --> 01:20:56,931
get there. We're betting on that future. We're trying to make it happen. What it is ready for

1914
01:20:56,931 --> 01:21:01,210
is for people to say, if I have better capital, I can underwrite better financial products.

1915
01:21:01,210 --> 01:21:07,170
So all kinds of loans, consumer lending, corporate lending, the treasury market,

1916
01:21:07,891 --> 01:21:14,270
real estate development. Well, we've talked to companies doing that. But I'm still trying to

1917
01:21:14,270 --> 01:21:15,331
understand how they're not competitive.

1918
01:21:16,070 --> 01:21:18,170
I'm actually interested. Since Deacon, I

1919
01:21:18,170 --> 01:21:20,030
seem aligned.

1920
01:21:20,190 --> 01:21:21,871
I think we're mostly... I don't think Block

1921
01:21:21,871 --> 01:21:24,251
is a Bitcoin treasury company, even if they hold

1922
01:21:24,251 --> 01:21:26,690
some Bitcoin treasury. I think that's a successful

1923
01:21:26,690 --> 01:21:28,490
company that's not structured

1924
01:21:28,490 --> 01:21:30,130
in the Bitcoin treasury style.

1925
01:21:30,391 --> 01:21:31,530
Help me understand how

1926
01:21:31,530 --> 01:21:34,450
21 is not a competitor to

1927
01:21:34,450 --> 01:21:35,130
strategy.

1928
01:21:36,630 --> 01:21:38,431
I think it's

1929
01:21:38,431 --> 01:21:40,490
unrealistic to say

1930
01:21:40,490 --> 01:21:42,510
not a competitor, but just that

1931
01:21:42,510 --> 01:21:43,670
there's more

1932
01:21:44,270 --> 01:21:51,450
collaboration than there might be in a traditional business so like is is google a competitor to

1933
01:21:51,450 --> 01:21:57,630
facebook and vice versa are they i would say they're pretty directly competitive do they ever

1934
01:21:57,630 --> 01:22:02,210
collaborate like maybe at the margin on some little initiatives but they basically don't

1935
01:22:02,210 --> 01:22:06,550
collaborate they compete because apple could we use apple and google as an example that's

1936
01:22:06,550 --> 01:22:10,891
yeah it's thornier because of the recent you know the not even the recent history deal and

1937
01:22:10,891 --> 01:22:12,871
years of surge

1938
01:22:12,871 --> 01:22:13,791
billions of dollars

1939
01:22:13,791 --> 01:22:14,450
of partnership

1940
01:22:14,450 --> 01:22:15,431
it's

1941
01:22:15,431 --> 01:22:15,851
it's

1942
01:22:15,851 --> 01:22:16,630
it's Apple saying

1943
01:22:16,630 --> 01:22:17,251
we're not going to develop

1944
01:22:17,251 --> 01:22:17,851
a surge engine

1945
01:22:17,851 --> 01:22:18,331
we'll

1946
01:22:18,331 --> 01:22:19,570
we'll get paid

1947
01:22:19,570 --> 01:22:20,331
all the value

1948
01:22:20,331 --> 01:22:21,030
as if we had to

1949
01:22:21,030 --> 01:22:22,010
or we can't

1950
01:22:22,010 --> 01:22:23,690
how do 21

1951
01:22:23,690 --> 01:22:24,650
and strategy

1952
01:22:24,650 --> 01:22:25,310
partner

1953
01:22:25,310 --> 01:22:26,570
or help each other

1954
01:22:26,570 --> 01:22:28,291
I think they help each other

1955
01:22:28,291 --> 01:22:29,130
because they each

1956
01:22:29,130 --> 01:22:30,471
own a lot of Bitcoin

1957
01:22:30,471 --> 01:22:31,770
and their stated mission

1958
01:22:31,770 --> 01:22:32,751
is to own more Bitcoin

1959
01:22:32,751 --> 01:22:33,471
they have different ways

1960
01:22:33,471 --> 01:22:34,170
to go about that

1961
01:22:34,170 --> 01:22:34,751
and I

1962
01:22:34,751 --> 01:22:36,130
I think the strategy way

1963
01:22:36,130 --> 01:22:36,610
to go about that

1964
01:22:36,610 --> 01:22:37,690
is we're going to

1965
01:22:37,690 --> 01:22:38,550
they probably have

1966
01:22:38,550 --> 01:22:39,570
some huge sales force

1967
01:22:39,570 --> 01:22:40,010
out there

1968
01:22:40,010 --> 01:22:42,251
selling the digital credit product to very people.

1969
01:22:42,251 --> 01:22:47,570
And my guess is that the CEP, whatever, the 21 company

1970
01:22:47,570 --> 01:22:50,030
is not going to hire a team of people

1971
01:22:50,030 --> 01:22:51,170
to go out and sell digital credit.

1972
01:22:51,351 --> 01:22:53,450
They're trying to build products that generate cash flows

1973
01:22:53,450 --> 01:22:54,950
and those cash flows will either be received

1974
01:22:54,950 --> 01:22:55,910
or converted into Bitcoin.

1975
01:22:56,030 --> 01:22:58,070
And that will be the basis of a lot of their treasury.

1976
01:22:58,070 --> 01:23:01,751
What will be their business model to support leverage?

1977
01:23:01,871 --> 01:23:04,291
Like 200% Bitcoin.

1978
01:23:04,710 --> 01:23:06,230
Let me try and answer that

1979
01:23:06,230 --> 01:23:08,190
because I thought Saylor said something really good yesterday.

1980
01:23:08,310 --> 01:23:09,690
And I want to be clear, Barris,

1981
01:23:09,690 --> 01:23:12,590
or no, is it Barrison made that point?

1982
01:23:12,690 --> 01:23:14,150
Or no, Matt made the last one, which is good.

1983
01:23:14,210 --> 01:23:16,650
He says, you know, ignores what he's saying.

1984
01:23:16,751 --> 01:23:18,810
It works in theory, but ignores the reality

1985
01:23:18,810 --> 01:23:19,990
of the treasury companies today.

1986
01:23:20,110 --> 01:23:21,351
That may or may not be true.

1987
01:23:21,730 --> 01:23:24,190
Like a lot of the people that are starting treasury companies

1988
01:23:24,190 --> 01:23:26,431
to me are definitely giving Alvacargo some of those vibes.

1989
01:23:26,910 --> 01:23:28,690
And I would probably, for those of you who remember,

1990
01:23:28,871 --> 01:23:29,990
I know Steve always likes him.

1991
01:23:29,990 --> 01:23:34,630
I'm going to, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

1992
01:23:35,690 --> 01:23:38,251
What's up, what's up, what's up, what's up?

1993
01:23:38,251 --> 01:23:39,891
you got a lot of

1994
01:23:39,891 --> 01:23:41,170
treasury connect

1995
01:23:41,170 --> 01:23:42,110
yes

1996
01:23:42,110 --> 01:23:42,810
yes

1997
01:23:42,810 --> 01:23:43,331
thank you

1998
01:23:43,331 --> 01:23:44,110
I think Max

1999
01:23:44,110 --> 01:23:44,710
should be on

2000
01:23:44,710 --> 01:23:45,291
SNL

2001
01:23:45,291 --> 01:23:45,570
yeah

2002
01:23:45,570 --> 01:23:46,270
thank you

2003
01:23:46,270 --> 01:23:48,210
um

2004
01:23:48,210 --> 01:23:48,690
so

2005
01:23:48,690 --> 01:23:49,710
so I'm gonna agree

2006
01:23:49,710 --> 01:23:50,090
with that

2007
01:23:50,090 --> 01:23:50,391
and like

2008
01:23:50,391 --> 01:23:51,050
when I put my own

2009
01:23:51,050 --> 01:23:51,450
personal money

2010
01:23:51,450 --> 01:23:51,971
most of these guys

2011
01:23:51,971 --> 01:23:52,530
hell no

2012
01:23:52,530 --> 01:23:53,190
like I

2013
01:23:53,190 --> 01:23:53,751
I agree

2014
01:23:53,751 --> 01:23:55,871
but what he makes

2015
01:23:55,871 --> 01:23:57,490
is a structural point

2016
01:23:57,490 --> 01:23:58,570
I'm also not gonna like

2017
01:23:58,570 --> 01:23:58,910
like

2018
01:23:58,910 --> 01:23:59,730
whatever

2019
01:23:59,730 --> 01:24:00,791
like bad mouth them

2020
01:24:00,791 --> 01:24:01,410
because we don't know

2021
01:24:01,410 --> 01:24:01,891
what they're gonna do

2022
01:24:01,891 --> 01:24:02,450
in the future right

2023
01:24:02,450 --> 01:24:03,431
so his point is

2024
01:24:03,431 --> 01:24:04,190
um

2025
01:24:04,190 --> 01:24:04,990
and he made this point

2026
01:24:04,990 --> 01:24:05,590
very actually

2027
01:24:05,590 --> 01:24:06,270
I thought eloquently

2028
01:24:06,270 --> 01:24:07,110
if you put your money

2029
01:24:07,110 --> 01:24:13,230
in an ETF or trust, they cannot, they are legally obligated to just hold the Bitcoin and that's

2030
01:24:13,230 --> 01:24:19,270
cool. They can't do other stuff. What he's saying is if you're an early adopter and you have a secret

2031
01:24:19,270 --> 01:24:24,150
about the world and the secret is the old monetary system is crap and dying and the new monetary

2032
01:24:24,150 --> 01:24:29,791
system is going up 20, 30% caggar, you now have a secret which you don't, you may not even know

2033
01:24:29,791 --> 01:24:33,450
exactly what you want to do today. It's like, you know, in angel investing, you know, we back

2034
01:24:33,450 --> 01:24:37,710
founders because they have maybe some general secret about the world, which they're exploring.

2035
01:24:37,831 --> 01:24:40,871
We're kind of like, yeah, we're going to bet that you're going to be the team to figure out

2036
01:24:40,871 --> 01:24:44,810
how to exploit that in the future. And maybe they do, maybe they don't. Similarly, these guys have

2037
01:24:44,810 --> 01:24:48,090
realized a secret about Bitcoin and we don't know what they're going to do to structure the products.

2038
01:24:48,170 --> 01:24:52,170
But his point is because they're operating companies, they can take this secret, they can

2039
01:24:52,170 --> 01:24:59,230
take this radioactive super uranium, which is Bitcoin. And if they're smart, which they may or

2040
01:24:59,230 --> 01:25:03,670
may not be. They'll figure out how to structure new real estate companies. They'll figure out how

2041
01:25:03,670 --> 01:25:08,650
to structure new insurance companies. They'll figure out how to basically just take any old

2042
01:25:08,650 --> 01:25:12,751
business in the old financial world, derivatives companies, anything that made a lot of money,

2043
01:25:13,291 --> 01:25:18,730
go and look at how, hey, if we were collateralized or capitalized by hard money rather than something

2044
01:25:18,730 --> 01:25:24,310
that can be debased, you're going to win. That's his point. Now, I will also say to your point,

2045
01:25:24,310 --> 01:25:29,371
Steve 21 specifically. I don't know any of their details, so I can't say. But if they are trying

2046
01:25:29,371 --> 01:25:35,670
to sell the exact same product that MicroStrategy is trying to sell, obviously, I think MicroStrategy

2047
01:25:35,670 --> 01:25:39,530
is going to win. So they're probably going to be number two. But even then, I would say they're

2048
01:25:39,530 --> 01:25:43,770
not, I mean, they are competitive in a sense, but they're also not that competitive because he makes

2049
01:25:43,770 --> 01:25:49,450
another great point, which is the world is relationship-based. And so in the same way,

2050
01:25:49,450 --> 01:25:51,331
if you're looking for a banker.

2051
01:25:51,530 --> 01:25:53,610
It's like both Silicon Valley Bank,

2052
01:25:53,710 --> 01:25:54,751
well, they used to exist.

2053
01:25:54,910 --> 01:25:55,410
And first problem,

2054
01:25:55,530 --> 01:25:56,590
they both used to exist

2055
01:25:56,590 --> 01:25:58,810
before the financial system started crumbling.

2056
01:25:59,210 --> 01:26:00,230
But the point is like,

2057
01:26:00,391 --> 01:26:01,530
why would you choose one or the other?

2058
01:26:01,610 --> 01:26:02,630
Well, maybe you have a friend there.

2059
01:26:02,710 --> 01:26:03,510
You just like this guy.

2060
01:26:03,670 --> 01:26:04,010
That's it.

2061
01:26:04,130 --> 01:26:05,351
Like literally the only deal is like,

2062
01:26:05,410 --> 01:26:06,391
I like you, I trust you.

2063
01:26:06,670 --> 01:26:07,751
And so there's always a room

2064
01:26:07,751 --> 01:26:08,871
for like relationship-based sales.

2065
01:26:08,871 --> 01:26:10,791
I would not personally want to bet on that.

2066
01:26:11,030 --> 01:26:11,570
But okay,

2067
01:26:11,690 --> 01:26:14,251
but that still only affords a few companies.

2068
01:26:14,570 --> 01:26:17,251
Not like millions of companies around the world.

2069
01:26:17,291 --> 01:26:17,810
But there can be.

2070
01:26:17,810 --> 01:26:23,010
Paul levered with Bitcoin all trying to sell to the same fund managers.

2071
01:26:23,530 --> 01:26:27,310
A fund manager doesn't have enough time to talk to like 100 million companies.

2072
01:26:27,431 --> 01:26:28,670
So that's the critical distinction.

2073
01:26:28,831 --> 01:26:32,950
There is room for millions of companies levered on Bitcoin selling different products.

2074
01:26:32,950 --> 01:26:39,210
If they're trying to sell the same treasury-like instrument or stretch-like instrument, they're going to probably lose the strategy.

2075
01:26:39,391 --> 01:26:47,791
But how can there be, I'm not imaginative enough to understand how millions of companies could be levered on Bitcoin selling securities.

2076
01:26:47,810 --> 01:26:50,130
products. Well, I don't think it's just going to be

2077
01:26:50,130 --> 01:26:52,070
securities products. I think there's all kinds of products, and that's

2078
01:26:52,070 --> 01:26:53,150
what we have to figure out what they are.

2079
01:26:54,590 --> 01:26:55,610
What's an example?

2080
01:26:55,931 --> 01:26:57,770
Do they regress something like a block?

2081
01:26:57,910 --> 01:27:00,710
What's a non-Wall Street

2082
01:27:00,710 --> 01:27:02,351
company example

2083
01:27:02,351 --> 01:27:04,190
that would be levered

2084
01:27:04,190 --> 01:27:06,251
with their Bitcoin and selling a product

2085
01:27:06,251 --> 01:27:06,471
to people?

2086
01:27:06,471 --> 01:27:09,990
I think the insurance example he gave is a good one.

2087
01:27:10,570 --> 01:27:12,291
Well, I call that Wall Street, though.

2088
01:27:12,530 --> 01:27:13,230
Let's take

2089
01:27:13,230 --> 01:27:14,490
Hoka.

2090
01:27:14,490 --> 01:27:18,170
I mean, like State Farm Insurance.

2091
01:27:18,331 --> 01:27:20,331
You're saying State Farm Insurance is a Wall Street company?

2092
01:27:21,331 --> 01:27:22,610
I mean, they're financial.

2093
01:27:23,030 --> 01:27:23,630
Walk us through.

2094
01:27:23,630 --> 01:27:24,291
They're financial, but.

2095
01:27:24,710 --> 01:27:25,710
Yeah, like Nike.

2096
01:27:25,971 --> 01:27:29,871
Like, why would Nike have 200% Bitcoin?

2097
01:27:29,990 --> 01:27:33,070
And what product are they selling to support that to be sustainable?

2098
01:27:33,110 --> 01:27:33,910
But this is my point.

2099
01:27:34,030 --> 01:27:35,331
Okay, so I think we should continue.

2100
01:27:35,610 --> 01:27:39,971
I think it's good that we're having this dialogue to like the BenArch episode now with dialectics.

2101
01:27:40,050 --> 01:27:41,570
We're going through our dialectics right now.

2102
01:27:41,570 --> 01:27:47,070
To be clear, yet we are probably at the phase of adoption where financial products are where this is going to work.

2103
01:27:47,130 --> 01:27:49,630
If you're Nike, the block strategy probably makes sense.

2104
01:27:50,431 --> 01:27:56,130
And you probably, unless you realize I can make so much more money selling insurance as Nike than I could being Nike,

2105
01:27:56,230 --> 01:27:58,010
which they're probably not going to do for a variety of reasons.

2106
01:27:58,490 --> 01:27:59,950
So to be clear, I don't think we're at that stage.

2107
01:28:00,030 --> 01:28:03,410
But then that suggests every company in the world becomes a financial company.

2108
01:28:03,791 --> 01:28:05,371
Well, I think Pierre Rochard made that point.

2109
01:28:05,510 --> 01:28:07,070
Again, if you believe.

2110
01:28:07,150 --> 01:28:08,650
But what if I want to buy a pair of shoes?

2111
01:28:09,650 --> 01:28:13,630
Well, so again, I think it depends on what you as a company, as a manager of a company,

2112
01:28:13,690 --> 01:28:16,851
want to do, what your goals for that company are, like how much baggage you have.

2113
01:28:17,150 --> 01:28:20,791
If you come into something point blank, you're like, I just want to make the most money humanly

2114
01:28:20,791 --> 01:28:23,810
possible. I mean, one way to do that is probably AI, but there's only like four companies that

2115
01:28:23,810 --> 01:28:27,331
matter there, so you're probably already out. I think this is Saylor's point. It's like almost

2116
01:28:27,331 --> 01:28:32,190
every company in the S&P 500 or certainly every company that's a public company. If you're not an

2117
01:28:32,190 --> 01:28:37,950
AI company and maybe a few very special companies like Nike, but even Nike, I mean, honestly,

2118
01:28:37,950 --> 01:28:42,070
Do I think they would make, would the world be better off if we all of a sudden lost all

2119
01:28:42,070 --> 01:28:42,450
of our shoes?

2120
01:28:43,130 --> 01:28:44,450
I would argue that.

2121
01:28:44,831 --> 01:28:47,891
But what is, what does the actual future look like in the shoe business?

2122
01:28:47,971 --> 01:28:52,190
It's probably not Nike building one shoe and selling it to a million people.

2123
01:28:52,510 --> 01:28:57,770
It's probably you getting some custom robot to make you a shoe that perfectly fits you.

2124
01:28:57,950 --> 01:29:03,070
And it almost like the brand concept is, do I have the robot with the raw ingredients

2125
01:29:03,070 --> 01:29:05,831
and the tool that designs it for my foot

2126
01:29:05,831 --> 01:29:08,770
to give me the best thing.

2127
01:29:08,770 --> 01:29:10,730
That's still not a financial,

2128
01:29:11,450 --> 01:29:13,471
like, levered financial product.

2129
01:29:13,590 --> 01:29:13,690
Yeah.

2130
01:29:14,110 --> 01:29:15,270
I think we're all agreeing.

2131
01:29:15,530 --> 01:29:17,931
It makes no sense that every company in the world

2132
01:29:17,931 --> 01:29:19,770
is only going to sell financial products.

2133
01:29:20,630 --> 01:29:22,010
I mean, that makes no sense.

2134
01:29:22,090 --> 01:29:22,710
Well, so...

2135
01:29:22,710 --> 01:29:25,490
I don't even understand what we're talking about.

2136
01:29:25,490 --> 01:29:26,090
No, no, no, but hold on.

2137
01:29:26,190 --> 01:29:26,950
Let's play that out

2138
01:29:26,950 --> 01:29:28,351
because I think it's a very important point.

2139
01:29:28,550 --> 01:29:30,331
Like, if you want to stay

2140
01:29:30,331 --> 01:29:31,891
in your old operating business

2141
01:29:31,891 --> 01:29:33,170
or do new operating businesses,

2142
01:29:33,331 --> 01:29:34,910
something close to the block strategy makes sense.

2143
01:29:35,010 --> 01:29:36,971
Although, even for block, I would push back and say,

2144
01:29:37,090 --> 01:29:38,391
why didn't y'all put even more in?

2145
01:29:38,791 --> 01:29:44,891
But again, to me, the division is up to 100% and over 100%.

2146
01:29:44,891 --> 01:29:49,431
So sure, you can critique, should block put more in?

2147
01:29:49,431 --> 01:29:50,090
It's not a critique.

2148
01:29:50,410 --> 01:29:53,751
Even block, like leveraging, could make sense,

2149
01:29:53,831 --> 01:29:54,910
but it's a financial company.

2150
01:29:55,190 --> 01:29:55,310
Yes.

2151
01:29:55,831 --> 01:29:58,270
Most companies in the world are not financial companies,

2152
01:29:58,590 --> 01:30:00,490
and the world needs all those services.

2153
01:30:00,490 --> 01:30:01,971
They evolve over time.

2154
01:30:02,130 --> 01:30:05,410
So we go from Cambodia producing shoes

2155
01:30:05,410 --> 01:30:06,871
to robots producing shoes.

2156
01:30:07,610 --> 01:30:09,230
But things evolve.

2157
01:30:09,510 --> 01:30:11,710
But most industries are not financial.

2158
01:30:12,090 --> 01:30:13,770
The AI and the energy.

2159
01:30:14,110 --> 01:30:15,950
Okay, you guys have to understand what I'm saying

2160
01:30:15,950 --> 01:30:17,050
because I'm looking at Matt saying

2161
01:30:17,050 --> 01:30:19,030
I'm depressing with this fiat talk as well.

2162
01:30:19,950 --> 01:30:21,170
You guys have to understand.

2163
01:30:21,251 --> 01:30:22,210
You have to see the big picture.

2164
01:30:22,610 --> 01:30:24,050
I'm not saying everyone should do this.

2165
01:30:24,130 --> 01:30:25,871
And if you want to stay in operational business,

2166
01:30:26,110 --> 01:30:28,170
yes, buy Bitcoin 100% or less.

2167
01:30:28,391 --> 01:30:30,391
The point is, and I think Pierre Rochard

2168
01:30:30,391 --> 01:30:31,810
has made this point very, very well.

2169
01:30:31,910 --> 01:30:33,230
We're in the early stages

2170
01:30:33,230 --> 01:30:34,831
of the speculative attack on the dollar.

2171
01:30:35,210 --> 01:30:37,050
Like I believe in hyper-Bitcoinization, right?

2172
01:30:37,110 --> 01:30:39,230
So what I think is happening is

2173
01:30:39,230 --> 01:30:42,530
if you had every company in the world realize

2174
01:30:42,530 --> 01:30:44,891
I could make more money as a financial company

2175
01:30:44,891 --> 01:30:46,950
selling some financial product backed by Bitcoin,

2176
01:30:47,371 --> 01:30:48,910
all of a sudden you would,

2177
01:30:49,310 --> 01:30:50,391
and first of all, it's never going to happen

2178
01:30:50,391 --> 01:30:51,270
because there's so many people

2179
01:30:51,270 --> 01:30:52,351
that would not believe that

2180
01:30:52,351 --> 01:30:54,210
and the requirements would be so heavy.

2181
01:30:54,530 --> 01:30:56,070
But all of a sudden what would happen is

2182
01:30:56,070 --> 01:30:57,851
the market would reprice, right?

2183
01:30:57,910 --> 01:30:59,210
Like everyone did that.

2184
01:30:59,210 --> 01:31:00,650
and they all started buying Bitcoin,

2185
01:31:00,770 --> 01:31:02,550
they all started selling these new products,

2186
01:31:02,891 --> 01:31:04,391
what you would do is you would accelerate

2187
01:31:04,391 --> 01:31:05,391
the hyper-Bitcoinization,

2188
01:31:05,530 --> 01:31:06,410
probably take the price of Bitcoin

2189
01:31:06,410 --> 01:31:07,791
well into the millions of dollars.

2190
01:31:08,331 --> 01:31:11,110
And in that process, you would like saturate

2191
01:31:11,110 --> 01:31:13,490
and take out of business the other insurance companies.

2192
01:31:13,650 --> 01:31:14,690
Again, I'm not even enough to think

2193
01:31:14,690 --> 01:31:15,770
this would ever happen overnight.

2194
01:31:15,931 --> 01:31:17,450
This is a many decade long process.

2195
01:31:17,971 --> 01:31:21,530
But like then once Bitcoin is many millions of dollars a coin,

2196
01:31:21,910 --> 01:31:23,010
you've already put out of business

2197
01:31:23,010 --> 01:31:24,871
all the old world fiat companies

2198
01:31:24,871 --> 01:31:27,770
or Bitcoin, hyper-Bitcoinize them from the inside.

2199
01:31:27,770 --> 01:31:31,190
then it starts making sense to sell old world things like shoes.

2200
01:31:31,670 --> 01:31:35,570
Just to respond to Matt's comment there,

2201
01:31:35,871 --> 01:31:38,931
I do not want to see 200 million companies levered on Bitcoin.

2202
01:31:39,110 --> 01:31:40,310
I think it's asinine.

2203
01:31:40,431 --> 01:31:41,590
It makes absolutely no sense.

2204
01:31:41,791 --> 01:31:42,570
That is my position.

2205
01:31:43,110 --> 01:31:44,270
I want to be clear.

2206
01:31:44,530 --> 01:31:46,391
Look, everyone makes their own decision.

2207
01:31:46,510 --> 01:31:48,530
I'm not saying the leverage is a good thing or a bad thing.

2208
01:31:48,891 --> 01:31:50,971
I'm saying see reality clearly

2209
01:31:50,971 --> 01:31:55,110
and understand that for any company selling things like derivatives,

2210
01:31:55,110 --> 01:32:01,690
insurance credit any of those companies they would be able to offer better rates and a better product

2211
01:32:01,690 --> 01:32:06,630
if they had bitcoin as their collateral than not that's it but let me let me ask some companies

2212
01:32:06,630 --> 01:32:12,230
will do that but for every 100 million companies to do it makes no let me ask an abstract question

2213
01:32:12,230 --> 01:32:16,050
which i already have an opinion on but just wanted to ask it in the abstract is like

2214
01:32:16,050 --> 01:32:21,570
do you believe there are any changes happening in the world that may shift the balance of power

2215
01:32:21,570 --> 01:32:24,931
away or toward labor and from capital?

2216
01:32:26,431 --> 01:32:27,490
Like what, DK?

2217
01:32:27,690 --> 01:32:28,950
What possibly could you be?

2218
01:32:30,070 --> 01:32:31,950
I mean, is there a shift underway?

2219
01:32:32,391 --> 01:32:33,630
Would you say there is a shift

2220
01:32:33,630 --> 01:32:34,391
or there's not a shift?

2221
01:32:34,751 --> 01:32:36,291
So there 100% is a shift.

2222
01:32:36,410 --> 01:32:37,770
And in fact, this is the thing

2223
01:32:37,770 --> 01:32:38,710
I've been obsessing over.

2224
01:32:38,831 --> 01:32:39,751
And I'm not going to add it

2225
01:32:39,751 --> 01:32:40,270
because I've been reading

2226
01:32:40,270 --> 01:32:41,650
my friend's book on this.

2227
01:32:41,730 --> 01:32:42,770
I would say it's a modern day

2228
01:32:42,770 --> 01:32:43,410
Das Kapital,

2229
01:32:43,710 --> 01:32:44,871
the best thing I've ever read

2230
01:32:44,871 --> 01:32:46,310
on modern economic thought,

2231
01:32:46,770 --> 01:32:47,931
which makes the argument

2232
01:32:47,931 --> 01:32:49,471
that capital and labor

2233
01:32:49,471 --> 01:32:50,610
are in fact becoming

2234
01:32:50,610 --> 01:32:54,170
the same thing, which is just fun.

2235
01:32:54,471 --> 01:32:56,950
Their new fungible markets are emerging

2236
01:32:56,950 --> 01:32:57,931
between capital and labor,

2237
01:32:58,030 --> 01:32:59,251
and it's just electricity.

2238
01:32:59,670 --> 01:33:00,950
It's just electricity either way.

2239
01:33:01,070 --> 01:33:01,950
That's what AI is doing.

2240
01:33:02,371 --> 01:33:03,270
And I would argue,

2241
01:33:03,391 --> 01:33:04,351
since we're not going to have enough time

2242
01:33:04,351 --> 01:33:04,891
to get to it today,

2243
01:33:04,971 --> 01:33:05,871
I'm going to tease this

2244
01:33:05,871 --> 01:33:07,670
for the future GPU marketplace discussion.

2245
01:33:08,450 --> 01:33:09,971
The really big idea,

2246
01:33:10,030 --> 01:33:11,210
the idea I'm obsessing over,

2247
01:33:11,270 --> 01:33:13,190
and if someone else is putting this out into the ether,

2248
01:33:13,331 --> 01:33:14,530
thinking about this idea as well,

2249
01:33:14,570 --> 01:33:15,030
and to be clear,

2250
01:33:15,331 --> 01:33:17,530
I don't want to fund these financial gains companies either.

2251
01:33:17,610 --> 01:33:18,410
I don't find them interesting.

2252
01:33:18,530 --> 01:33:19,851
They're going to make a shit ton of money,

2253
01:33:19,851 --> 01:33:20,971
and God bless the people

2254
01:33:20,971 --> 01:33:22,050
that want to play the insurance game.

2255
01:33:22,130 --> 01:33:23,030
It's not what I'm interested in.

2256
01:33:23,530 --> 01:33:25,090
What I am interested in though

2257
01:33:25,090 --> 01:33:27,550
is figuring out how the robots use collateral

2258
01:33:27,550 --> 01:33:29,550
and figuring out how to bank the robots.

2259
01:33:30,070 --> 01:33:30,670
That's my teaser.

2260
01:33:32,530 --> 01:33:33,190
Good teaser.

2261
01:33:33,570 --> 01:33:33,950
Can't wait.

2262
01:33:34,791 --> 01:33:36,270
We will talk about it next week then.

2263
01:33:36,630 --> 01:33:37,030
All right.

2264
01:33:37,450 --> 01:33:39,070
Have a good weekend guys.

2265
01:33:39,251 --> 01:33:39,751
Have a good weekend.

2266
01:33:39,851 --> 01:33:40,010
Peace y'all.