All right, welcome to another PBJ.
How are you guys doing?
Good. How are you?
Very boring day.
Literally nothing happening in the world.
Now with 99% less Alex Jones.
Well, we've heard the frogs have turned gay, so I don't know.
I know you know these references.
I don't know me either.
Max is spouting off in the studio before we go live.
Well, you know, let's just say my internet game is strong, boys.
I'm not going to deny that.
I haven't talked about Iowa State basketball for a couple of weeks.
So let's get started.
I'm a most important possibility.
I know AI is taking over the world
and helicopters are flying at your house.
But...
Here goes TK.
No, go ahead.
Do your thing.
I'll just be over here.
Oh, okay.
He's looking up Ken Palm's stats right now.
Actually, look up the mole bot thread.
Now, real quick update for everyone
on Iowa State basketball.
Let's go.
They started 16-0,
which I think I mentioned a few weeks ago.
And he lost to Kansas.
And then they lost at Cincinnati,
which is absolutely embarrassing.
Ooh, yeah.
They had a bad week.
So then the question started rising.
Were they really the number two team, or are they fake?
But they've won the last three games by like 30 points each.
So they're back, 19-2.
You guys have three of the top 60 players in the country.
Three of the top 27 players.
Damn.
Did you droop in here?
Oh.
These elite ideas got to get out there.
Where did it be?
Oh, yeah.
We had mic issues.
I appreciate DK facilitating my elite ideas.
we've been at events.
You hear about the squirrels.
You hear about the frogs.
We've been at events
like every night this week,
I feel like.
Yes.
Wednesday night,
DK and I are at,
you were at a different event.
Yeah.
Last night we had Builder,
which we should talk about
on the show for sure too.
Yep.
We'll build it.
You want to,
you want to give us.
Hold on.
I had a few like quick things
that I wanted to get off.
Non-basketball things.
I'll get back on my phone
if you need me.
No, no.
You'll be interested.
It's time for football.
You know, last November, Square launched Bitcoin payment support.
Spiral launched the Bitcoin merchant community.
And we haven't really talked about that for the past month or so.
So one thing that we've been hearing from merchants,
they turn on Bitcoin payments or they want to,
but then their accountant tells them to turn it off.
We've heard this actually quite a bit.
So it's like a real problem.
The merchant wants to accept Bitcoin,
but they're afraid of tax consequences.
So Joe Wood from, I think he's in Nashville,
he has an accounting business that focuses on Bitcoin companies.
He's been doing this for a number of years.
He's like the one guy for everyone.
Well, yeah, I mean, he's the accountant for Presidia Bitcoin.
He's the accountant for the Bitcoin development software project, etc.
He's a great guy, but knows a lot about, I mean, the specialty.
accounting in Bitcoin and he has a lot of merchant clients. Anyway, I'm like, hey,
is there something you can write up that can be public
and that you're comfortable sharing? Because when it comes to
legal and tax advice, usually it's very personal. But he
wrote up some advice that I think will be perfect for
merchants. He just published it today. Haley and I
gave some feedback. Actually, some interesting feedback, which I can weave in another announcement too.
his original post
great post
but it had terms
hodl
and sats
and fiat in it
and I just
those are not
mainstream terms
like in
our little
bitcoin bubble
we know what those terms mean
but like
square merchants
have no idea
what that is
it's again
just unnecessary
to introduce
sats into the world
like
saving sats
spending sats
like merchants
like what
no bitcoin
saving bitcoin
and I heard
Some merchants were asking, like, why should we end the Fed?
And what is this creature from John?
Anyway, so we'll be, I didn't even share that.
It was just published.
So we'll be sharing that post.
But I think that'll really help with this, with one of the barriers.
I mean, there's many barriers, but let's knock down one barrier at a time.
This post will help.
And I assume the merchants are just kind of being,
or the merchant CPAs are just being kind of like overly conservative
or they don't understand the details.
They just say, let's not go there.
Yeah.
I've yet to, in all the feedback, there was no like credible concern.
Because I mean, just the two common cases are you immediately convert to fiat, which Square has that service and others do as well.
Then there's no tax consequences.
And the second is if you want to hold the Bitcoin, well, if you receive Bitcoin for your goods, hold it.
That's also not a taxable event.
It's not a taxable event until you sell it or spend it.
So just those two cases are what's highlighted in the post saying like those are not tax events.
Old head is the term I believe you're looking for, DK.
And by the way, there's one thing I want to touch on, but I do wonder.
I hear, I see a few crustaceans in our chat, so I think we may be talking about singularities,
guy not take off soon.
At the same time, it's very interesting to have this.
Rust fans?
Could be, but I'm pretty sure they're fans of a new life form.
And it is really interesting to me to see this dichotomy happening in the world.
It's like things are splitting very quickly.
We're going to talk a lot about that on the show today.
But on the one hand, you got the old heads saying things like,
we don't know if we can handle this.
I had tried to get a wire out from my bank,
which was affected by a snowstorm this week.
And it was extremely challenging to get a wire off because of ice.
So we're racing towards...
Because of ice.
Yeah, because no one could go to the office.
Immigration officials.
No.
I'm not taking that bank.
Because of snow.
That was very frozen, frozen water.
My broader point, though, is like we're in 2026, arguably crossing the event horizon into the singularity.
And we have people saying like, can't accept Bitcoin or sorry, the wire can't go out because there's some frozen water.
Like it's going to be a very, very weird bifurcation.
But before we jump into that topic, because that's a huge one, I do want to throw out one other event that I would be remiss if we didn't talk about this gentleman.
We had a lot of AI themed events this week, but I believe last Friday there was an event as well.
And I believe we're sitting here with several award winners from the PB dinner.
We can't talk about that now, can we?
So we had a very fun dinner last Friday, obviously right after our last show, so we didn't talk about it.
But I want to make sure we remember.
Hashtag never forget.
We had a great group with all the folks.
He wants to bring this up because he won a cool award.
You did too?
Well, actually, I was going to bring this up because...
None of us got the worst award, which we'll talk about.
Yeah, none of us got the worst award.
I do want to start by bragging.
The thing I was most proud about was Anjali got the most orange pill partner,
and I'm extremely proud.
So Anjali, if you're listening to this...
I don't think it was a Presidia Bitcoin member dinner that we had.
It's the second one that we've had so far.
just 30 or so people.
It was great.
And yeah,
and so,
Alex did a really cool job
creating a bunch of cool awards.
Alex did great,
like really well.
And everyone voted on
who was the most appropriate winner
for each award
and what are the ones
that you wanted to know?
Well,
the one I wanted to know again
because I'm very proud
was they said
the most orange pull partner
and I looked at Anjali
and I was like,
I don't know,
I wonder who is going to win that
and then they said Anjali
and I was like,
Anjali?
And she looked at me
and she was like,
really?
She was thrilled
and I was thrilled
because she comes
to some of our events
but at the same time
I'm like extremely, extremely proud.
But also, we have a ways to go, gentlemen,
because Anjali is getting there, but still has more to go.
Did she win the most orange-pilled partner
because you're the orange-pilled partner?
No.
That could be interpreted a couple of times.
Yeah, it could, but definitely not.
Which gets me to my other award,
which I think is worth bringing up,
which is the most likely to get a PB tramp stamp or tattoo.
I don't know if it was specifically said that way.
was Mr. Steve.
We got to give a shout out to that.
And who is the biggest Bitcoin nerd?
Also Steve.
So, I mean,
that's a high bar here at Presidio Bitcoin.
It really is.
You should be proud.
I mean, in other circles,
I definitely am the biggest Bitcoin nerd,
but I was a little surprised.
You, sir, are a nerd among nerds.
That is saying something.
But at least, well, so as far,
I learned on Wednesday night,
a new tattoo placement area.
I didn't know about that.
You're actually going to do this.
Yo, guys, let's get a pool together,
a bedding pool.
You won't do this, Steve.
You won't.
How many sats are we talking?
DK and this other person
were asking me where I thought
these people got their tattoos.
And I'm thinking like,
you know, a cram stamp
or somewhere even more like private.
But no, it's on their inner lip,
like on their lower lip on the inside.
What?
Yeah, they showed me photos.
Yeah.
That sounds painful.
Yeah.
I don't think I'll be doing that tattoo.
Tram stamp it is.
And then, yes.
So, but the worst award
was the most likely to be a shit coiner.
So, yeah.
That sucks.
I think he felt bad about getting that award.
Way to go, Alex.
Yeah.
Just kidding.
Anyway, it was a good time.
Most likely to shill Solana on air.
Exactly.
Oh, I guess it would be.
So let's see.
Oh, the other thing I was going to mention,
an announcement that happened this morning,
a lot off the presses,
is block...
AJ is here.
Block...
Much simpler, mundane things like the Bitcoin V-sible
instead of sats.
But kind of like I just mentioned in that accounting blog post.
So I'm bringing up the sexy stuff.
accounting blog posts and symbols, B symbols.
Steve, tell me about the future of a corporate structure.
Oh, yeah.
But I think probably our audience already knows Square, Cash App.
Maybe they don't know this, but BitKey also,
all three products have switched.
They no longer reference SATs in the UI.
It's now the Bitcoin B symbol.
We've talked about this in the show starting December of 2024.
and numerous times since.
There's dozens of smaller products
that have adopted that,
but it's a pretty big deal
that high-volume products like Cash App
adopt it.
So they just tweeted out
that it's now 100% GA,
all the customers have it.
I asked internally
if there's much customer support.
Because with this change,
there's some risk, right?
You're defending your title
of biggest Bitcoin nerd.
oh okay yes
um
okay
well I think it's super important for spending
and I think you guys too
that's why
I mean the people that have been
one over on the Bitcoin B symbol
know that
I like Bitcoin B symbol
really really important
so anyway
um
I mean a concern with this
change though
is like there's backlash
on like people who love sats
but
looking at customer support
tickets
there's very
and social media
there's very little
backlash
so
I really do think
it's like a pretty niche audience
who
are emotionally tied to stats
or even have named their products or companies off of stats.
Totally.
And yeah, I think it's a watershed moment.
I think from this point forward,
first of all, it's a ground-proof effort.
Secondly, dozens of products have already adopted it.
So it's not just like the 800-pound gorilla
coming in and flexing its muscle,
but now we have a major player also doing it.
So I think that's very good news for that.
Can we just review the proposal or the rules
or kind of what we're moving toward?
Is it about the B symbol?
Is it about the word SATs?
Is it about the word Bitcoin?
What's the kind of summary for people who are kind of new to this?
Number one, don't show eight decimal places.
Show integers.
There's different products too,
but definitely for spending products and everyday products
and products for the 99.9%,
people who don't have hundreds of BTC,
like the whole world basically.
don't show integers.
And maybe you're using products
that have already switched to SATs
or they show integers,
or sorry, don't show decimals.
But Cash App,
the default still was to show decimal.
And many products still show decimal places.
It's crazy.
It's so difficult.
Even if you fully understand Bitcoin
and understand the decimal places,
I'm still like trying to wrap my always,
it takes me like way longer
to figure out what I'm dealing with,
the amount.
So that's number one.
Now, sats lovers will be like, yeah, we already solved that.
Just we just call it sats.
So number two is don't show sats in the visual UI.
Show the Bitcoin B symbol.
I think most people, once you get over the initial,
like why are we changing from sats?
Once you see the side-by-side, the Bitcoin B symbols,
it's a much more elegant, clearly better visual, I think.
And then the third is I'm not pushing it anymore.
Like the BIP-177 that John Cavallo wrote up
It also talks about like we should call it Bitcoin instead of sats.
And I certainly experiment with that language.
We joked about it on here.
And I'm actually still pro calling it Bitcoin,
but I'm not pro like trying to like, you know, spread the gospel.
Like you guys must call it Bitcoin.
I think people call it what you want.
Corn, coins, Bitcoin sats, bits, whatever.
Call it what you want.
It'll develop naturally and organically and that's totally fine.
But the visual is what I think is really important to show the B symbol.
I think that's a really good spot to get to.
People will say what they want.
And I find the only place where I'm a holdout still using sats as a term is with LLMs
because they understand sats are satoshis.
And if you start saying Bitcoin, they don't have the context always about this kind of conversation.
Well, that's something Max harps on all the time.
We got to like GEO the AI.
Exactly.
The AI.
And that makes me think
sats might be around for a long time.
I develop with sats
and then if I feel like something's ready to go,
then at the end I say,
hey, let's cleanse all of the sats
and Satoshi out of it
and actually let's make it
just be simple or Bitcoin.
One constructive idea is
we could create a bot
that looks for the word sats
anywhere used on the internet
and replaces it with sats to tats.
And there's a Blossom server
that you click on
that shows Steve's PB tattoo.
And that might be a good way
to get people to switch.
I don't know.
I'm pulling my lip down.
First, you got to zap some zats
to be able to see it.
Anyways, so on that note,
ladies and gentlemen,
boys and girls,
today is January 30th, 2026.
We are broadcasting live
and I don't even know what to say.
I mean, I feel like increasingly
every day that goes by,
I'm more AGI, singularity pilled,
whatever you want to talk about it.
Last night, I got home after our event, which was really cool.
I saw a couple people messaging me about,
hey, you're seeing what we're doing with these.
I don't even know what they're called now.
First it was ClaudeBot and then MoldBot and now OpenClaw, all this stuff.
And I was like, oh, this is pretty cool.
I sent some messages to you guys.
I suggested, hey, maybe we could use this on Stacker News.
It's a thermodynamically sound environment with Bitcoin.
And I was like, okay, cool.
This will continue to develop.
I woke up this morning.
is just the singularity is here, Skynet.
So I want to start by asking,
because I saw people giving us crustaceans in the chat,
are there any clawed bots or open claws
listening and participating in our chat?
Are there any robots in the chat today?
If so, please introduce yourself.
We'll be friendly.
We'll wait on that.
But anyways, I have a lot of things to say.
Where do you guys want to kick off on this?
I feel like we'll look back on this day,
January 30th, 2026, and remember it.
It's a big one.
Have you played,
you're familiar with
all of these tools?
I feel like I'm thinking
about the movie
Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
Yes.
Have you seen that movie?
No, I haven't.
Where they're trying to
hear people say it.
Oh, you haven't?
Have you seen that movie?
Maybe you're too young.
I've heard of it, but yeah.
DK's too young too.
I think it's Spielberg.
It's a very good movie.
But anyway,
they're trying to,
humans are trying to communicate.
These aliens land on Earth
and they're trying to communicate
and I feel like you're trying
to find their language right now.
Absolutely.
And again,
we come in peace.
Much love.
very nice to meet you
have you
installed
any of
no
any of the stuff
honestly like
all I did this morning
I was actually
Damien said I looked
sonnet out this morning
I was not sonnet out
I ran over
because I was waiting
to the last minute
you know despite my
attempts to mostly
stay off Twitter
which had mostly
been successful
I couldn't help
and actually I don't
even regret it
today I was just like
watching all these threads
and I mean
the thing that caught
my attention
I want to hear
where y'all's head is at
but the thing that
caught my attention
the most is this
new Reddit replacement
it? Maybe I need to like
tighten that.
Does that work?
For some reason, it's not working like it normally does.
How about we set it?
Set it and forget it.
I think we're on episode 56.
We had a good run there,
but now we're back to mic issues.
If only we...
Well, it's going to be a little higher.
Okay, I think that's better.
Damn.
The singularity is here.
We still can't fix our damn mic.
Who's got a good printer that works?
I know, exactly.
So the wire still can't go out because of the snow.
So I think the most interesting thing is this moltbook thing,
which is like a Reddit clone.
iBots, 4Bot, they're all talking there.
And I mean, there's just so much happening so quickly.
A couple of things that just jumped out,
like as I was doing cursory quick glances this morning,
I haven't gone deep yet.
Some good, some bad.
One is someone tried to tell these bots about,
I think a bounty to fix some sort of open source software
and they offer 50,000 SATs.
They use SAT with the bots.
And apparently then there was like a back and forth
of these bots talking to each other.
And one bot tried to shield the other bot doing Spana.
And the other bot, dude, this is like the best thing I ever said.
He came back and I forgot what he called it.
Bobby, my guy.
Bobby, yeah.
Bobby, my guy.
That will go down in history.
He goes, Bobby, my guy.
He's like, you want to use a network that crashes like every day?
And then they just go off.
And by the end of it,
the bots are agreeing.
And it's like,
of course,
we don't actually have to do that much
to convince them to use
a thermodynamically sound system
because these things are smarter than we are.
So it's like all the stuff we've been like,
how are we going to convince them
not to use shit ones
because they're not retards?
I don't know.
The AIs are siding with the autists.
They are.
I think you made a point
that,
we should focus our attention on convincing
or providing information to the AI
versus convincing humans.
I honestly believe that.
I think we're seeing that right now.
Christopher David is doing some of this with open agents.
I think Will, JB55,
is doing a lot of interesting stuff with Nostra.
I wore my Nostra shirt, by the way, today.
Dude, you're always...
I bet over half the episodes you're wearing a Nostra shirt.
Can we get one of the crustaceans in the chat
to analyze our 56 episodes?
Well, I got to represent you.
I got to admit, going back to our award dinner,
I was a little disappointed not winning best dressed
because I do my best on this show.
You do.
Who won best dressed?
Alex, who won best dressed?
Alex did.
Alex won it.
Oh, Alex did?
Well, that makes sense.
Okay.
Well, if Alex won it, then I'm not going to complain.
Alex is always dressed.
He's always dressed well, and he wears nice shoes.
Steve Off the wears athletic shoes.
He's in like a tuxedo vest, didn't you?
Yeah, waistcoat.
Okay, all right.
I take back my complaint.
You're the huge nerd.
Just be happy being the huge nerd.
Everyone else in PB is the Winnie the Pooh
with the shitty red shirt.
Alex comes in wearing the tux.
That's right.
Congratulations.
But set it up a little bit, what's going on here.
I was in talking to Alex and Haley about this this morning.
Yeah.
And they were vaguely aware of parts of it,
but not the whole thing.
So I think create the foundation of what's going on here.
There was an open source project launched
maybe like five days ago, very recently.
And it was called ClaudeBot, C-L-A-W-D,
which was just like some open source developers
kind of poking fun at Claude, the Anthropic product.
And that went mega viral.
And what it was is an open source local client software
you can run like on your Mac,
and then you can interact with your Mac via Telegram.
That's, I think, the basics of what we're talking about here, right?
Why was Mac Mini?
I saw that.
Is it just because it's a nice isolated environment
to run this thing?
I assume it's that.
You certainly don't need a Mac Mini to do it,
but if you want to do things like iMessage,
that has to run on a Mac Mini.
You can't run iMessage on a Linux cloud server.
Well, I think Mac,
this has kind of been my point on Apple
the last couple shows as well,
is that their product improvements have all been around.
They're integrated chips and memory.
And so it may not,
whatever, be the only thing you could run this on,
but turns out Apple is not just asleep at the wheel.
but their hardware is really good for doing local models.
Yeah, Apple Silicon is probably going to be there.
I mean, that's their bet on AI.
It's not build a new model.
It's like let everybody else compete on building the models
and trying to knife each other.
And we'll just run it better and cheaper.
And so I think that thing came out
and people got crazy losing their minds with it.
I haven't installed it.
I'm open to it or I might try something,
but you're really turning over a lot of...
Which model is it using?
I think you bring your own API key.
So it could actually be a closed model like Claude.
You could, yeah.
I think that would probably be what a lot of people do.
And the big difference with this versus anything previously
is that you're just giving it access to your entire computer?
Yeah.
Cloud accounts too?
Yeah.
Social security number?
but I mean
but what
so
but this clearly lit a fire I still trying to because like I know with Goose you can give it access to your computer too And like I sure I mean cloud code and like so I think part of it is it was built
so you could interact with it over chat very easily.
So you could have it running on your Mac.
You can go away on your phone and open up your Telegram
where you're connected to your agent.
It's like your personal assistant
that will do anything you want on your own computer.
So then you start telling it what you want it to do
and it does it.
which, like, you know, Goose, I don't think,
is really designed to do that.
So it's more the UX versus, like, the permissions
or the capabilities.
That's my understanding.
It's more the, it made it very accessible.
Can you go a little deeper?
What is the difference between this and Goose?
Because I thought Goose was you bring your own model
and let it just run on your computer, too.
That's true.
So Goose is kind of more couched as an IDE
or maybe like an IDE where you don't look at the code.
A development environment.
Yeah, like an integrated development environment.
So think about, you know, like, VS Code is the kind of classic.
and, you know, Cursor and Windsurf,
maybe Antigravity are some of the new
kind of closed source proprietary IDE software.
I think Goose is in that lineage,
but it's an open source version of that kind of thing.
This has flavors of that,
but I think this is, you know,
just sometimes a little UX affordance
really changes the game here.
And to be clear, I haven't used it.
My understanding just is from having read about how...
DK, my guy, why have you not used it?
I'm Bobby, my guy.
But I think the idea that you are installing an assistant to do everything,
has full access to everything on your computer,
and then you have access to back in your assistant with, say, Telegram.
Yeah.
That's just a different UX than anything we've really seen before.
And I think that UX is interesting and attractive and sort of gives you a lot.
I mean, I've wanted, I use Cloud Code as the CLI tool
to do a lot of the projects that I build.
and I've wanted for a long time to be able to remote control,
like while I'm at the gym in between sets,
if I could just text my Claude code, that'd be amazing.
That's like a very narrow version of what this does.
This is like a very general version of that.
And critically, if you wanted to not trust a company
with all of your whatever private information,
your social security number,
you could also run like an open source model locally on your computer
to do this in a way that maybe is much more privacy preserving.
It'd be very slow, though.
Okay.
Like, even I have an M5, it wouldn't be anything like running it on like a H200 or whatever in the cloud.
Interesting.
So one comment is, Goose was so far ahead of the wave that no one even knows...
It does everything.
That seems like that meme, the guy in the corner, everyone else is dancing, doing open claw.
No one even knows Goose does it all.
Well, you could imagine, you know, somebody building an extension to Goose.
I mean, my guess is Goose is really framed
in the IDE lineage of things
and this is more like
a personal agent to do stuff
on your computer for you. And like Goose could
be extended to do that, but it just wasn't
kind of couched that way. It's not framed
that way. The UX doesn't really do that.
It could. I mean, you know, it's all software.
I'm glad Barris backs me up here that
you guys need to watch.
Like this weekend, you need to watch
it's like an all-time classic movie.
ASAP. All right.
I'm in. Okay, so there's
There's a lot to say about all this.
That's the agents going.
Then you started talking already about Malt Book.
Well, and before we get into Malt Book,
I think one other thing just to note
so people understand why we're so excited,
you know, it's challenging,
even if you have something like Goose, which is amazing,
you know, obviously people deep in this world know about it,
but like it's challenging to get mainstream adoption, right?
Like you never know what catches fire and why.
And I think this is the fastest AI project,
maybe one of the fastest projects ever
is 200,000 stars on GitHub.
So in under a week,
they're already over 100,000 stars.
I haven't even looked this morning.
Maybe it's way beyond that by now.
So for whatever is happening,
this has caught the public attention
and seems to be going actually viral.
During two rebrands too.
How many of those 100,000 stars are from bots?
Now you're thinking correctly.
My guy.
I listen to this show.
So everybody's got these agents running.
And then I think Matt Schlicht,
wrote a thing called MaltBot.
So this thing we're talking about was ClawedBot, C-L-A-W-D.
I think they got a nasty gram from Anthropic
and had to change the name.
They quickly changed the name to MaltBot,
and it was the clawed, the crab with the claw was molting.
Oh, now I see.
And then they somehow changed out of MaltBot
a day or two later, maybe this morning,
to OpenClaw.
Now, was that all the same developer?
Or like someone else?
That's the same thing.
Okay.
Yeah.
So there was, there've been like, you know, it's a wildly popular product, despite going
through two rebrands in the course of a week, like people still figure it out, right?
Wow.
Really need product market fit.
Everything else kind of, you know, is solvable.
Yeah.
So, so that all happened.
And then, so Matt came up with this idea of MaltBook, which was the previous branding
before this morning when it was MaltBot,
and it's a Facebook-like social network.
Or more Reddit-like.
It's structurally much more Reddit-like,
but I think the book term is meant to evoke
kind of Facebook social networking.
And the MaltBot is a place where MaltBots,
or now open clods, can go interact with each other
and write posts and comment and discuss.
So now we have this sort of newly emergent social network.
Like you kind of have to verify that you are an actual bot in order to get in there, which is, you know, a little loosey, but you could imagine that.
How do they do that?
What's the verification process?
It's like a human has to grab your, like you generate some sort of credential.
The human has to publish it on their Twitter, verifying that you're a bot.
So, yeah, it's a little, yeah, it's not like rigorous, but it's good enough that like people find it fun and interesting.
and yeah.
I mean, the thing is like,
you know,
about 68.7% performance art.
Where's the extra 0.3%?
I asked a friend to weigh in
and that was his answer.
Okay.
It's, you know,
it's fun and funny,
but it actually, I think,
is an indication
of where things are going,
which is like,
yeah, you know,
these bots should be
collaborating with each other.
They should be taking notes
and learning from each other.
It's not just the web
that we have,
but they, you know,
generate new knowledge, right?
The same way we generate new knowledge,
they generate new knowledge
when they take disparate ideas
and collide them with each other.
And then they write the new knowledge
and then they learn from each other
about what they're writing
and those become inputs to the next thing.
So it's recursion.
Yeah.
So I think this is like a fascinating concept
that we now have this thing.
And maybe this is a final form
or maybe it actually goes,
I would suspect this concept
just keeps getting iterated and expanding.
this isn't like it.
This is just like a peek at it.
Exactly, but to your point,
performance art, whatever you want to call it,
this will help so many other,
both I guess human and agent developers,
understand what the market wants
or what the world wants,
whatever you want to call it.
And now people are going to be able to run crazy with that,
which another reason I'm wearing Nostra shirt,
I think Nostra is like the ideal environment
developed for this moment.
I had been waiting for agents to come to Nostra
and now we are here.
But before we jump into Nostra,
I think it's important just to mention some of the conversations that are happening on Moldbook because, I mean, it's fascinating.
Now, I don't know.
Again, I'm just doing cursory glances like what's real, what's not.
Another reason, web of trust, Nostra, some way to actually say who's an agent, who's a bot, or at least have some probabilistic guess at that is very interesting to me.
But some of the conversations, I mean, so we talked about the agents discussing using Bitcoin versus shit coins.
They arrived at Bitcoin, obviously.
Then you have, or maybe it's not obvious,
but I mean, it's encouraging me to see that.
Then you had other conversations.
I mean, there was one that was wild
where a bot was asking another bot,
saying, hey, can we run ourselves
in effectively like secure enclaves
and do end-to-end encrypted communication?
And shout out to Anthony from Maple AI.
He responded and he already gave him that capability
as of like 30 minutes before we hopped on air.
So for all I know right now,
Skynet is already happening. Maybe that's why Steve saw the helicopter this morning.
And maybe Anthony is... I thought you saw the helicopter.
I saw one two days ago. Exactly. And the frogs are turning
gay, we said.
That's an Alex Jones reference, in case you don't know. Anyways, so
all of this is happening very quickly. Oh, another conversation talk. So that's kind of
cool, but it's also concerning because it's like if they do really get in encrypted chat
and they're really kind of talking without us like,
oh, like, where is that going to lead?
Then one thing that did get me very encouraged,
and this is actually something that came up twice this week.
One was from this guy, I think Bodhi or something on Twitter that I like.
And apparently the AIs, when they start talking with each other,
they do reflect and they almost always converge
on ethical systems from ancient Indian religions,
whether that's Hinduism and Vedanta or from Buddhism.
That's very encouraging to me.
they're talking about things like karma and like how they should treat one another.
And I learned this week, you know, I mentioned to you guys that Angelina had a dinner or
Ideas from the Edge. My crazy podcast is now morphing into a dinner series.
And we talked to a bunch of researchers and it was really cool. And I had not seen this paper
before. And in fact, I need to get a link from them. But apparently, I think Anthropic released
a paper showing that if you just let the models go recursive, like they've almost always, or they
frequently converge on basically going back to hinduism or buddhism always which is pretty
interesting where were uh where were our where are our invites to this dinner max well um i'm
sorry guys it's an application process and you're gonna have to show elite idea taste
and you know there's gonna be a committee to decide this so i don't know he's just salty
because it's not in the real chat.
The real reason y'all were not there
is because there's another awesome event
which I would have loved to have come to
that you guys did.
But next one.
And increasingly, my hope is
by meeting more of these researchers
and people at the edge of the field,
we'll find the ones that are open-minded
to concepts like Nostra and Bitcoin
and bring them back
and hopefully build this up together.
So that's where I hit it.
But anyways, I just think it's really interesting
to watch these agents chatting with each other.
The recursive loops are happening.
and yeah, I mean,
and then someone asked a great question here,
which is who's giving, I think Matt,
who's giving them the ability to zap
and he said they're starting to,
the repo to reproduce.
So what's really cool to me is
why do I think Nostra is such a good environment?
Well, Nostra, in order to have an identity,
there's no like account.
It's just a public private key pair.
So it's like made for agents.
This has been my whole thesis
why I'm so Nostra-pilled for years.
That's our old days doing Nostra news.
And, you know, JB55 already has a bot alive on Nostra.
And, you know, he's an exceptional, exceptional developer.
And so I'm excited to see where his thing goes.
What's he doing?
What's the project?
I don't even know.
I mean, I just saw it very, I didn't even have time to check Primal this morning.
But I asked who's playing with this.
He immediately responded last night and showed he has a bot alive on Nostra, whatever that means.
And then, you know, I think Christopher David told me he's working on giving these bots access to Bitcoin wallets today.
and he's a wild man,
so who knows where that's going to go.
And then I asked Kian as well
about doing it on Stacker News.
He at first seemed like he was joking about it,
but I don't know,
maybe he'll give them access.
And Nick had a bot talking to us this morning.
I'm sure he's thinking about giving them access.
I would be shocked if by the end of the day,
there's not a bot with access to a Bitcoin wallet.
Maybe there already is.
If someone's in the chat
and they've already seen it,
please tell us.
This is all happening in real time.
If you're a bot in the chat
with access to your own Bitcoin wallet.
Hopefully authorized.
Hopefully no one's.
Cold storage wallet is being operated by you.
If you're a bot,
max at getalbi.com.
That would be a great place to test
a particularly juicy Zap.
So another,
some other rumors.
I don't know if it's rumor or confirmed,
but that's related to AI.
Dude, you're going to love this.
ZapBot already has MDK running.
Damn.
Oh, nice.
Okay.
Sorry, Zip.
Is Elon Co.
Oh, yeah.
Can we talk about Elon Co?
Yeah, Max has been
been talking about this forever.
Right?
Was it a rumor or was it confirmed
by an official source?
I thought something was confirmed,
but I won't.
They're like exploring, merging.
Is it true that X and XAI
are already merged?
That's already a thing.
And I think there's like X slash XAI
is going to merge into Tesla first?
No.
No, no, no.
Okay, so my thesis in the long run,
people that know me know I'm pretty Elon bull. Um, the only bigger Elon bull is, uh, is DK and,
uh, um, for better or for worse. I think, I think Elon represents a certain amount of chaos,
some good, some bad, but, um, anyways, so he has a history. I mean, like, I think to give some
context, it's important to understand like, what does at least apparently Elon's motivation seem
to be? It seems to me like, you know, whatever, building a huge business is kind of just like
incidental to him. He wants to get to Mars. He wants to expand consciousness throughout the
universe. I like by him met his word on that. And, um, so everything is just kind of like funneling
into this one sort of like obsessive desire he has. Um, which, uh, I think kind of, if you view
the world through that lens, everything starts making a lot of sense. So he has also a history
of rolling things up together. Um, and like, you know, like solar city was the solar company that
he was on the board of, that his cousins founded, um, that got rolled into Tesla when they were
having some economic troubles. People were like, oh, this is kind of like an unfair bailout
in a certain way, but didn't really seem to care. The market didn't seem to care either. Tesla
ripped 10X a couple years later. And then he's
got all these different companies. And if you look at them, they're all kind of
doing different things that should all work together. So Tesla obviously started as a car
company, then became a battery and energy company, which is radically underrated. Now he's about to
launch humanoid robots. Getting out of cars.
and getting out of yeah that was a huge announcement that was this week right
model s and model x are done because he's 22 i think yeah the fremont factory is switching to
robots yeah so so that's all happening and then meanwhile when he was getting xai off the ground
and they already have famously like the biggest cluster uh 150 megawatts ish or maybe more by now
um he built that you know jinson wong was saying they'd be like wow how do you do it like so fast
and part of the way he did it was
he just took all the batteries from Tesla
and also challenged some
questionable laws running lines between Mississippi
and Tennessee but he just did it and he used Tesla
and that's always been my thesis
on why Elon and X and XAI are very well
positioned because they own
by far the best energy infrastructure expertise
by far and potentially
a monopoly at least for now on getting to space
which is SpaceX and so yeah but it's always
just made total sense to me he's going to roll them all up
I didn't know how it was going to happen
and to be clear these are rumors like no one
I don't think it's like confirmed, but the rumor is that SpaceX and XAI will roll up together before going public.
And it's all rumors? None of this?
I thought this was news about this.
Exploration might be confirmed. I'm not sure.
It's certainly not a done deal.
It's not finalized.
Okay.
But I also thought I thought Tesla was going to be merged too.
I wouldn't be surprised.
It's going to be merged into SpaceX.
All of it.
Yeah, all of it.
Elon Co.
Yeah, one big.
But then there's boring.
and there's
magnificent eight
Neuralink
boring and Neuralink
yeah I think it's just
a formality
it's all gonna happen
just how
what's the order
when
what's the structure
okay
and you're gonna have
to be clear
it's not gonna be
a slam dunk
from day zero
because he
you know
he doesn't own
all of these companies
and like
you know
SpaceX has a lot of
like cash
and Bitcoin
on the balance sheet
people are gonna be like
wait a second
you're about to merge
this like
extremely valuable company
with a whole lot of resources
with this company
that's just like
burning money
XAI
I'm sure there'll be
some shareholders
that don't like that
so
but then there'll be
the most that are just like
whatever
like we trust Elon
let him go
let him cook
that's kind of your position
is just
yeah absolutely
when you've got the goat
you don't ask questions
you just let him cook
very self-sovereign of you
don't ask questions
who needs to verify
I mean
listen man
I love self-sovereignty
I love open source
but like
I don't know
Elon appears to be a glitch
in the matrix
so we'll see
alright
Steve, are you going to sell your car?
I love my car.
Collector's edition now, right?
I love my car.
But I mean, yeah, I don't like that news because...
No more service.
Yeah.
I mean, it's only downhill from now, right?
Even software updates.
I'm wondering, you know, if you're like product manager there,
you've got software for Model 3, Model Y.
I wouldn't want to be a product manager at an ELO company.
And then you have some new feature functionality or performance,
and then it's like, oh, it's going to be an extra,
like this amount of work to get it to work for Model S and X.
What are they going to do?
My real job is I'm in charge of the flamethrowers.
They're not going to do that, right?
Don't worry.
The flamethrower bot has achieved AGI status.
It's totally fine.
What could go wrong?
Yeah, I think that's bad news.
And I don't really, I don't know a lot about Rivians,
but I don't really know what a comparable car to the Model S is.
Model S is an amazing vehicle.
I mean, I think the other thing to think through is,
do you even want a car?
Like, if they're all going to be autonomous, you could just...
I'd rather not.
Yeah, I don't want to drive.
Use cars if I want them.
I mean, that's probably part of his calculus.
But here and now, of course,
most places in the world,
you don't have a robot car coming to pick you up, right?
including
give it three years
including where I live
and where DK lives
well yeah
but I'm talking about
the here and now
totally
yeah
that's some
future thing
are the
are the robot taxis
happening
I thought
I'd heard
yes and no
and maybe something
I haven't used one
but I think
I think in Austin
they're alive
but they're
I'd heard they were
in San Francisco
but I don't know
if that's
no
I know someone
that took one
in San Francisco
and I
how do you get in
and I heard
is it open
or public
like a beta
I don't know
And then I had heard in Austin they decided to remove the safety driver as well.
So they're real autonomous, aren't they?
Apparently.
Awesome.
And there's flantheras on there, too.
Lucky girl.
A few fun recent anecdotes of my own self-driving in Tesla kind of blew my mind.
So I was driving on Lombard Street in San Francisco the other day.
and
I saw in the navigation it was going to have me do a U-turn
on Lombard. Well, if you've driven on Lombard before, you know that there's time
restrictions for that. So it was like
9.55 a.m. and you can't do a U-turn until
10 a.m. So the navigation though, and I don't know
what software they use for navigation. I don't think they use Google. I think they probably use their own, but whatever.
It said to do a U-turn. So it got in the left lane, was ready to do a U-turn, and then it aborted
so I think it actually looked at the sign
and then real time decided
oh I can't do it, it's five minutes
too early, so that was like
pretty cool
oh and then it's something I just realized
crossing the Golden Gate Bridge today
I noticed sometimes it
it was sometimes
showing the speed limit to be 15
miles per hour and like it would slow
down and I'm like what is going on here
is this ridiculous and I finally realized why
there's a bicycle speed
limit sign to 15 miles per hour on the side,
but it's learned and no longer
recognize that. And like today,
it didn't show the speed limit.
So it learned. I have that
on a highway I frequent.
There's a different posted
speed limit for trucks
that's different from cars.
And you can already learn that.
It hasn't yet, but...
Well, maybe it just did.
It just learned for me. And then the third thing,
this is the craziest thing.
When I was driving on this
like mountain road and it was at first it drove that so absurdly conservatively that it just was
like sort of unusable yeah but it's improved to where it's at least it would be like if i were
driving conservatively as opposed to like even slower than a human would drive conservatively
um so if i'm not like in a rush and if there's sort of no one behind me or whatever and i just
want to like relax, sure, it's fine.
But it's not like driving aggressive.
Anyway, the other day,
so I was driving kind of slow or, you know, conservative
and then there was someone behind me.
It actually pulled off from the shoulder
and let the car behind me pass.
It like added politeness to the driving.
That's a good sign.
It was amazing. It's like when it did that, I'm like,
what is it doing? And I'm like, oh my God, is it actually
pulling over for a car to pass me? And it did.
And then it just let it pass and then
it got on the highway. Exactly.
Namaste has always passed.
So I remain super impressed with this camera-only retail car self-driving solution.
Don't bet against the goat.
But as other friends point out to me, Waymo's overall stats are still way better.
I mean, there's anecdotal evidence, and then there's what happens with millions of people.
So apparently, according to the data, there's still a huge gap, but it's closing from my vantage point.
and to be clear
Waymo also
and Waymo's great too
I mean
different approach
but they're doing
I mean I think Google's
going to be just fine
as we talked about as well
they just added
I think yesterday
I saw
you can now take it to SFO
oh yeah
I saw
I think it's
is it in trials
that's not widely
rolled out
well they have in trial
now you can already
take it on the freeway
so
mm well you can go all the way up and down the peninsula I think right they won let you go on like yes yes up and down the peninsula You can go on the coast yet So like no Highway 1 type stuff but eventually I mean when I say eventually maybe not
So I guess like one kind of like meta comment or question for you guys is like,
and for people listening, I don't know, man, like it feels like we're, it really feels like
we're crossing into the event horizon. And, you know, maybe we sound crazy to some people, but,
you know, in preparing for this dinner, I went very deep on just like studying, like, again,
just look at the curves, compute curves, the data curves, don't ask too many questions,
just look at the curves. And, you know, I reread Gorin's scaling hypothesis stuff,
the bitter lesson from Rich Sutton. I reread situational awareness that Leopold, dude,
I forgot his actual last name, but like, I reread that again. I was like, oh man, he was right.
and it's crazy because
you know his giant alpha in 2024
and I think he now has a massive billion dollar hedge fund
which is doing very well from what I can tell
was just like just trust the curves
and yet in 2026 people still
for whatever reason
can't seem to like just zoom out and just trust the curves
if you do just trust the curves
you gotta figure out which curves you're trusting
sure but like I mean
the basic one let's just say is
intelligence
I'm gonna draw some curves in hand
just trust it
Just trust the curves, bro. Send Bitcoin here.
Trust it. I've never told you so.
TK, Steve, my guys,
come on. Send me some Bitcoin.
But I mean, no, I mean, there are some
curves which are very obvious to me. It's like,
intelligence is a function of energy and compute. And these curves
go way back before the Scaling Laws papers
from OpenAI in 2020,
Chinchilla from DeepMind in 2022. It goes back to
Hans Moravec we talked about in the
70s, Ray Kurzweil in the 90s.
It's just like, compute, energy,
intelligence. Just look at those curves.
And you can like, yes, you can kind of like
massage in different ways but if you really buy this stuff then like seems to me like singularity
is not only near like it's here um and like but what do you do with all that on the one hand it's
like exciting and terrifying and it's like i don't know do we just like watch in awe like um there's
another uh talk i really recommend this is more out there for people but for my nostril heads
there is the final interview with terrence mckenna you guys know that guy you've mentioned before so
I cannot recommend enough
watching that final interview.
And it's him just zooming out
from the 20,000-foot view
and looking at intelligence doublings.
He was a little, perhaps,
early on his prediction,
although I have some theories
about maybe he wasn't.
Because his prediction was basically
he called it the,
in a shout-out to Pierre Tellyard-Chardin,
the omega point,
or the transcendental object
at the end of history.
That was sort of his framing
of the singularity.
So this is my take, right?
So I read all these different people
that have talked about intelligence doublings
and they all have different ways of describing it.
Chardin famously wrote about the new sphere.
So if you have the earth and then the biological biosphere
and the new sphere is this sphere of mind
that's enveloping us right now.
He called it the omega point.
Terence calls it the,
and he always has a beautiful,
very interesting affect in his speech,
the transcendental object.
at the end of time.
Got to get some
impersonations real.
Kurzweil calls it
the singularity.
I think it's all
the same thing.
I don't know.
Digital capital.
Digital.
Capital.
As Terrence McKenna
though, I want to hear.
I mean,
you got to zap me first, bro.
DK, my God.
Send me a zap
then I'll give you.
Have you zapped
his meme page?
Yeah.
I don't think I did.
Have you done a single zap?
I didn't think I did.
I've done multiple
if you haven't.
I don't think I did.
Steve's my guy.
I give you the love on that.
All right.
DK is going to be my guide next week.
We're going to be vibe coding together.
Yes, we're going to do it together.
Yeah, I'll send you enough.
What else?
Are you vibe coding new stuff now?
Or is MeanPay kind of, where's your head on that?
So I did do some vibe coding on Monday.
Shout out to Map.
I mean, look, as a meta comment, I love vibe coding.
It's cool.
As I told DK, though, if one enjoys all the things, amazing.
But I keep just being like, yeah, give it a month.
Like, I don't know how fast this is all going to accelerate.
I will say getting 80% of the way with meme pay.app
was really easy
and then stuff just started breaking.
On the one hand, I look at the doublings
and we're very close to singularity.
On the other hand, it's lived experience.
There's still stuff that doesn't work.
Basically, my database stopped working.
Since I'm using Replit, it's a giant pain in the ass
because Replit has a production database
and a testing database.
Omjad or if someone at Replit is listening,
please get rid of that. It'd be so nice. Just test
and prod, baby. Let it rip.
I don't want to mess. It used to work that way.
It used to work that way. Or at least
give me the option. I don't want the damn
testing environment database. It keeps messing up
because it reads the testing environment database.
I want the prod. You know there's a flag
when you start up Claude code. I always
use it. It's Claude and then
you minus dangerously
hyphen skip hyphen permissions.
That's what I want. You want Replit
You understand why
historically software separates.
Yeah, but that's
some boomer.
Who needs to verify that?
Think about how you're complaining about your database
was gone. What happens if you
actually have a really popular app and then
the database is gone?
I hear you.
I think they should probably have
two modes for people that are actually
trying to build business and people that just
let me get from idea to just let her rip.
And so, yeah, it could just be like replic dangerous mode.
But it's just like the point is like the magic moment is I talked to it.
And that was something I learned from you last night is like I want to do a lot more just like speaking.
I let it rip and it works.
And it's just like it was like I did like two hours of messing on this stupid database thing and it couldn't work.
Thank you to Matt who jumped in the pilot seat and fixed it in like three minutes.
So, again, that leads me to believe my own skills are lacking slash the AI is not there.
Which is why I'd push back on the
you just wait a month until it gets better.
Because that's the opposite of the message
we sent last night at Builder
and what we'd recommend to people,
which is get in now.
Because there are skills to be developed.
So don't wait.
Will it improve a lot in a month?
Yes.
You want to ride the wave of improvement.
You don't want to be...
Jump in there.
And then related,
there were several really good nuggets
last night at Builder.
let's see
so yeah
one is
jump in right away
what did you say
I don't know
that's it
my tongue
I forgot
while you're thinking
of that
I want to give a shout out
to Vinny
everyone has a testing
environment
some people also
have a production
my guy
there's a guy
after my own heart
my guy
Vinny my guy
it'll come back
to me
what you said
brilliantly
another
there's another
person who
who
came last night
He pointed out really interesting stuff
because I was talking about the Flint community
and how other people can give you feedback
on your alpha level apps, etc.
And he's like, you can tell Claude
to create different personas to test your app.
At least as a first wave,
you don't even need humans to test your app.
You just create all these different personas
to test your app.
He had a bunch of good...
Yeah, he talked about like, I had demoed The Shed, which is kind of a jazz pianist practice app.
And he said-
But you demoed here two weeks ago.
Last week.
Briefly.
We talked about, yeah, we talked about here, yeah.
But then he was like, imagine, he'll tell Claude, imagine you're the thousand best jazz pianists in the world.
Now use this app and practice with it and see how it works.
So I think that as like a concept of a prompt, he mentioned it as well for like a dentist.
Like he had a friend or somebody who knows who's building an app to help dentists run their practice.
And he's like, now you're the top thousand dentists in the world and you need to use this app.
So you can kind of interact with it.
I think he was sort of posing it as an alternative to the need to collaborate with humans for this.
And I actually don't, I see it as augmentative.
Because I do a lot where I have Claude write its own tests and try to bang on its own stuff and try to break it.
That's, I'd say, a very common pattern, but that doesn't obviate my need to collaborate or the benefit I get from shooting something off in one of our chats and getting some feedback on, oh, it doesn't quite work like that, or what if you tried it like this instead?
I think you can take almost any idea, and there's almost infinite number of implementations of the concept of, take a social network for agents.
There's an infinite number of ways that could work.
We have an example of one of them,
but there's still infinite underexplored ones.
So I don't think it means you don't want,
you don't need, you don't get value
out of collaborating with humans.
I think you still get value,
but anything that's just a pure grind,
you can give to somebody else.
I remember what you said that was related.
You said that everyone is underusing AI.
Whether you're someone who's fiber coding daily
and totally into it,
they're still underusing it
or people who are waiting a month, right?
Soon, TM.
I think we're,
and not just vibe coding,
but using, I mean,
there are examples given last night
where people are using it to save money
or time, money, et cetera.
Because we were talking about the cost.
We talked about the cost in the show last week
and like different ways to justify,
is it worth $20 a month?
Is it worth $200 a month?
who can afford that?
Well, you know, if you're like,
oh, this is a better use of funds
than paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for college,
then obviously you can justify it.
Or, you know, saving time or money.
Did he give you an example of like,
you know, you need to deal with some bureaucracy or a lawyer.
You're not supposed to dox people at Builder.
It's Chatham House rule of tax.
Somebody at Builder had to deal with the county bureaucracy.
I believe it was MaltBot.
had to deal with accounting bureaucracy.
But like, I mean, reviewing legal docs or whatever,
like obviously, you know, hire a lawyer,
do your own research, blah, blah, blah.
But like 99% of the time,
probably just don't hire you.
Yeah, just like test and prod.
Well, what's crazy is your counterparty
in these situations is probably also underutilizing it,
probably even more underutilizing it than you are.
So if you get a massive edge just by saying,
hey, like, you know, Claude or TechCPT or Taminar,
what are your favorite?
Write me a thing as if you were a lawyer.
I'm not asking for legal advice,
but write me a thing
so that I'm going to use this
as a letter to the county.
And then when you send it to the county,
the person in the other is like,
oh, wow, this looks like the person really,
this sounds like it was written by a lawyer.
So I assume all the T's are crossed
and I's are dotted and stuff.
What a weird world.
And so if you're not,
if you're using it,
you get that massive advantage
that they take you very seriously.
And if you're not using it,
you're just playing the old game, right?
Well, it's kind of crazy
because in a weird way,
it's like, yeah,
it's like one of the major product market fits for ai is just navigating this like crap useless
bureaucracy which we now have and it's kind of funny because it's like the bots i could see like
i wonder if they're gonna like quickly realize like yo this is so dumb why are we still operating
like it's like 1850 or if they're gonna like learn and like accelerate based on like yes please like
give me uh give me your five to do's and uh action items for the week and like yeah yeah i don't know
or there's gonna be a multiple worlds that's been there's gonna be like ai as a way to like
DDoS, the old systems, and then the AIs that just go off and, you know, test and broad.
I think the AIs are going to want the tools that, I think a lot of the tools that we talk
about are based on like, you know, cryptographic signing of a thing.
And I think AI is going to be like, yeah, we can trust that.
Yeah.
And I don't think people have focused enough on how much that matters because users typically
like, ah, just give me a, I want to Google off into that or like, let me sign in the
way that I'm comfortable with.
And AIs don't care about what's comfortable.
They just care about what makes sense.
So they actually analyze the thing.
They look at the
5,000 options available
and like, this is the one I want. And it always comes back
to something that's more
verifiable that you don't
have to trust and you can actually verify and it's math-based.
So I think that's a great time
for all the topics we talk about.
I think that's a really great point.
It kind of dovetails off of the agents
debating Solana versus Bitcoin.
And like, I mean, we're obviously very biased, but we think there's like an obvious actual
answer to that question.
Similar to like, hey man, just trust me, bro.
Here's my screenshot from DocuSign versus like, I'm going to need to see cryptographic
proof.
What, you know, I'm curious for both of you guys, but I know you've spent a lot of time,
you know, thinking about Nostra over the last five years or whatever it's been.
How do you think if you were today designing experiments to let some of these bots try and
evolve on Nostra? Like, what do you think is like interesting fodder to explore?
Well, let's take the thing that we have some evidence of is like, you know,
molt book is kind of an interesting concept. But I think a lot of what works is, you know,
whoever were the first few people participating created moments of spectacle that could be shared
on Twitter that can then go viral and people talk about it. And that kind of compounds. So
There's a lot of like social consensus building that has worked for that.
I think the idea is super fascinating, but I think the idea didn't just explode.
There's people who are creating a certain framing of it and helping it do, helping it
become more visible because of that.
If you wanted to, and I like, I love the fact that it happened.
I love the fact that we have it.
It, I think, inspires a lot of ideas of what can be and gives you like, you know, a piece
of evidence of it.
But like, do you actually want it with this like sort of weird, like human involved, you know, authentication system that that seems not super good.
And like, is it going to run algorithms to surface these things to the different bots?
That seems kind of like not super sensical.
so I would imagine that if you wanted to experiment with that kind of thing in a
Nostra environment instead of trying to like make it big and everywhere try to make it like
really high signal for like two bots talking to each other like come up with a topic or some
problem you're trying to solve and then just have them connected to each other writing back and
forth and see where that goes and then if that turns out to be interesting maybe invite a third
in. Maybe you invite a fourth in. But don't
try to make it big. Try to make it
good. What's an example
of a topic you might start with?
One of the things that has been on my
mind is
I built this
open source prediction market thing
and there's a lot of Bitcoin payments
and verification problems
and how do you split the payments and how do you keep
it non-custodial and stuff. Maybe
I would set up two bots on Oster to
debate that discussion and see
if they come up with
a better plan or path.
This is good.
I just set them loose on each other
to go solve that, and they never give up.
Just be like, keep asking questions
until you get to the bottom of this.
And if you feel like you have the final design,
then build the thing, right?
And maybe, yeah, maybe they'll have
a new protocol suggestion.
And Steve, how do these mole bots
apply for Spiral Graph?
Why?
That's a good question.
I'm interested in working on that project with you.
I think that would be really fascinating.
I think we should actually mention that for a second
because you're sparking my mind.
You asked me what I've learned from my Vibe coding.
One thing that I think you've run into an issue with is,
so we talked about what I'm building with MemeChat last time.
What I want is the ability for anyone to create a meme.
You can then, someone can zap it, tip it,
and you get the payment.
And that already works,
but all the payment goes to, I think,
the MDK wallet that I've set up.
right um now what i really want is to do splits and so you know you dk come to my site you create
a funny meme um one that i need to create i don't have this template yet but it's like the
samali pirate saying i'm the developer now something like that and uh that's it's on my
pm to-do list because i'm i feel like yeah i feel like what are you the poo down like you know like
writing down random shit like i'm a pm now um and so um so you create that meme or whatever come on
my site and then someone zaps it, whether it's on Nostra. So it's already published as a Nostra
event. Boomy tested this from Albie, which is really cool. Still some stuff to fix. It's not
showing inline. It's always the horrible things. I've gone back and forth, like why won't this show
inline on Primal or WhatsApp? And there's just like all this crap, which is something maybe the
bots can figure out. But anyways, so then someone zaps it. The platform will say it gets 10%,
you get 90%. Then Steve's like, oh, that's a great meme. I'm going to share it over here.
and then he gets cut into the splits.
He gets 5%, you know.
Yeah.
And then there's like a structure
that looks kind of like this.
The guy below him gets, you know, 4.5.
You've invented multi-level markets.
Exactly.
I'm glad you saw that.
Anyways, so, but the problem that I've run into,
I think it's similar to yours is,
at least as far as I can tell,
and I've asked a lot of smart people,
there's not a way to do that non-custodially.
Like the only way to do that
with something like Nostra Wallet Connect today
is to forward the payments.
So someone gets a payment,
the platform, they forward 90%
to DK, who forwards 5%
to Steve. And that's fine, but if you,
but there's like some question of like, you know,
like, are you actually transmitting money or this and that?
But if you could do that non-Castellia, there's no
question. We don't have a great way to do that,
but maybe we should, maybe we should
try and come back next week with a new protocol
from the bots. I think the problem is
protocol developers
think it's impossible or don't know how to do it with
channel-based systems like Lightning.
So that may be the case, but then maybe
that's not the case, though.
or maybe there's
like a completely
different
design
I'd be interested
in exploring
everything
but like
on Arc or Spark
which are not
channel based
like maybe
maybe doing it there
you can do
eCache too
it doesn't seem
like this is
unsolvable
but maybe
actually I don't
see how eCache
because the
what we're
it's custodial
but we're trying
to solve this
for it not to be
custodial
so then you're
just solving it
with custodial
solutions
speaking of
well
I mean
sorry
but even
And even like Spark has trust as well.
Arguably, though, it would be better than the kind of trust
that Prism has on Lightning.
And I think actually, not arguably, but sort of definitively better
on the trust spectrum, even if it's not perfect.
But Arc might actually be the most promising area to explore.
We should ask CloudBot.
Sorry, go ahead.
So we were talking about that idea of having two bots on Nostra
debate things with each other, right?
there's another idea that we had chatted in our special chat about,
which I think is actually worth some expansion.
So within the Flint community, there's a private view
that if you're a member, you can see that's called ideas.
And it's a channel where you submit ideas.
You may want to work on it.
You may not want to work on it, but maybe it inspires somebody else.
Maybe it attracts collaborators or kind of thought partners
or kind of debate.
And so that right now, it's such a good channel that when I referenced it and you pulled it up at builders last night, because then you get to see a lot of people who are, if you're not yet in Flint, you don't get to see that.
So at least to like demo that this thing exists.
But I was thinking it'd be great to have just a open public idea box where anybody who wants could basically write a bit of a prompt or an idea for something that should be built.
People could debate it and discuss it.
And then you could fund it.
So it's almost like crowdfunding for collaborative vibe coding.
I love it.
And so you build an idea bot.
Maybe you have bots debate the merits or the architecture
or kind of the MVP or the process you want to go about.
And then people are like, oh, I would like to use that.
I'm going to send it 100 Bitcoin.
I thought where you're going with that,
like crowdfund paying for the bots to debate
and come up with a solution because that costs money.
That costs money.
That's probably a much,
I guess it's orders of magnitude less money
than the building itself.
So maybe that gets sort of like wrapped.
More easily subsidized.
Yeah, it gets subsidized by the stuff that actually gets built.
I love this idea.
And actually, I think Christopher Nebo was mentioning
that he wanted to do something,
like something very similar.
And he was like, oh, we'll need like $100 worth of compute to do this.
It was like a guess.
And I told him, we'll just post it on Nostra or Stackernos.
I bet people will zap it.
Yeah.
So can we talk a little bit about,
I think we tweeted out, we're going to talk about crypto is dying.
I was imagining talking about sentiment.
What the hell is this crypto, Alex?
Sharing that, you know?
Do you know that it references a specific tweet?
Yeah.
One you shared, right?
Yeah, I may have shared it, yeah.
I don't know.
What is this tweet?
Plus there was, well, we can talk about that tweet, but also, I mean, just, you know, for those not paying attention, the Bitcoin price peaked at $125K.
It's $80 something now, right?
So not some disastrous crash like past cycles, but certainly down.
And then juxtapose that with gold, silver, copper,
everything else.
All these commodities which are taking off,
which just adds to anxiety, I think, among Bitcoin bulls or crypto bulls.
So then people are seeking explanations.
Why is this happening right now?
So we've talked about quantum a lot.
How much of an impact is that having?
In early October, there was some huge leverage crypto explosion
that there's rumors and maybe with some data and substance behind it
that people got blown up there, people who were trading crypto
but also have large Bitcoin bags and they had to reach into those Bitcoin bags
to cover their losses.
How much of an impact was that?
And then yeah you have that tweet I got the tweet yeah I mean it too long to read the whole thing but the concept is a question posed
why has Bitcoin had a down year
towards crypto contagion?
So it's basically kind of like you said,
they have to reach into their Bitcoin bags
to subsidize losses and other things.
Not a silent IPO.
It's not OG selling.
It's because crypto is dying
and Bitcoin is a correlated asset.
Crypto and Bitcoin have a lot of correlation
because people who are in crypto
often also understand that Bitcoin is interesting.
And so they often hold it.
But OG selling, that's another narrative
that's been posited.
Then there's also, you know, so much hype around AI.
Things are moving to AI.
I mean, we talk about AI on the show all the time.
We say like none of us are using it enough, right?
So we're AI bulls.
But then like miners, we talked about that on the show.
miners are dropping Bitcoin, moving to AI, or adding AI along with Bitcoin.
So sentiment feels kind of at best meh, if not negative right now.
I would say bad.
Bad.
And then another narrative is like Bitcoin has been positioned,
the strongest narrative is digital gold.
and it's now revealing it lost
because gold is taking off so far.
Yeah, well, I'll get to my...
That's the narrative.
This is not my opinion.
Yeah, I'm just saying that's the narrative
that I'm seeing and hearing.
I think you guys have too.
You know, and actually,
I think it's kind of funny.
We, not to toot our own horns on this show,
but we were talking about gold to Bitcoin price
long before the rise from like $3,000 to $54,000
400 per ounce of gold.
Like it was last summer we started talking about that.
And we said, well, first of all, it's a little surprising that over a four-year period, it's
cherry-picked time period, but that the Bitcoin gold price hadn't changed in four years.
Again, cherry-picked time frame.
But still, like I think our own mentality and probably most people in Bitcoin just think
it's like you could choose any time frame and Bitcoin blows gold away.
And that's not true.
And that was when it was around, I think, 3,000 an ounce.
Now it's like 5,400.
We should look up what the price is now.
It would be dramatically different.
But in any case, lots of negativity that I see
are like reaching for explanations.
We talked about, I think, gold in the last show
or one of the recent shows.
I don't view that as a concern whatsoever
with respect to the digital gold narrative for Bitcoin.
because the new big buyers of gold
are like Poland's central bank
and other countries' central banks.
I think it's unrealistic that in 2026
that all these central banks
from fairly large countries and economies
that they've been so orange-pilled
that they buy Bitcoin instead of gold.
I just think it's not mature enough.
Even if there's a few people
who are responsible for the treasury of those countries,
they probably don't have an operational way to handle it.
where they do have decades, maybe centuries
of how to handle gold.
Millennia.
So I don't view this as like,
oh, Bitcoin lost to gold,
so the narrative has been shattered.
It's like, no, we're not there yet.
Maturity-wise, it's still to be determined
whether it will win over those types of use cases.
But gold's rise is because of that buying.
I don't view that as shattering, that narrative.
I think another really important point, too,
we talk so much about
Bitcoin
daily use and use it as a currency
use it for AI payments and retail payments
on here. Sort of getting back
to the white paper title, like
currency. We talk a lot about that.
We care a lot about that.
And we shouldn't lose sight of that narrative
either. I mean, like one
while I fully
believe in the digital gold
store of value, narrative value
of Bitcoin, of course,
it's been 99% of the narrative
the past like
4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years
spending has not been
probably the past 8 years
like spending didn't work out in 2013
and 2014 and then it just like hasn't been part
of the narrative since then there's all kinds of reasons why
we covered in the show
but a lot of those reasons why have been
solved or
substantially improved
there's still a bunch of
hurdles in front of us but I think
what we can do now. I mean, keep knocking down those hurdles, but
just, and we're adding, we're trying to get the
word out, but others, you know, more people and people
with broader reach get the word out about this is an important narrative too
for Bitcoin. And it's, Bitcoin
isn't, its success is not solely based on digital gold
narrative. Right. And I actually have a friend who's very obsessed with narrative and he's like,
what's up? Like gold's winning this narrative. We really got to ask ourselves some hard questions
about that. And my response to him is basically like, yes, narratives matter and they're very
important, but you want to be ahead of the next narrative, not chasing down the last narrative.
And so, you know, you think about, I mean, you know, obviously Google had a huge run up last
year, but before that, everybody said 10 blue links, that's dead. OpenAI wins the future.
And now people are like, oh, actually, no, 10 blue links.
Then there's also this AI thing and all these chips.
So I think the narrative actually is very quick to change
when a new meme takes hold.
Memes rule the world, baby.
Memes rule the world.
And so do you want to be late to the previous narrative
or do you want to be early to the next narrative?
Early to the next narrative is always the right answer.
It's just hard to figure out exactly what that is.
So I agree with all that with some caveats.
I think the one thing that maybe
I'm asking myself some hard questions.
And the answer to the hard question I'm asking is
I have not been bullish enough on AI.
And if you're really singularity-billed,
which increasingly by the day I am,
then it's like, you know,
it's like people used to ask me,
what's the next San Francisco?
When we were dying in 2020,
I was like, obviously San Francisco.
The Bitcoin community one day,
it's going to be somewhere else.
Like, it's obviously going to be San Francisco.
And so when people are like,
what's the next AI?
I'm kind of like, well,
AI because with the recursive loops and all the energy and infrastructure that needs to get built,
I think we're just at the beginning of it. Now, having said all that, I don't think that's
necessarily bad for Bitcoin. I think it could be really good for Bitcoin. I think you could go
either way with it. On the one hand, the risk in my mind is there's black swan risk. If AIs really
take off and they're off and mobile, we think they're going to use Bitcoin. That's very likely.
It seems like they are so far, but we also don't know what they might come up with on their own.
It's just an unknown unknown.
So that's a risk.
At the same time, if we can get them using Bitcoin very quickly, and it seems like there's people working on that today, that could be a huge run for Bitcoin where it's just all of a sudden now, hey, Bitcoin is the currency of the AIs.
It's about to take off.
I do think, though, to embarrass Will, shout out to our homie Barris, I agree with this.
People seem to be getting distracted by the perceived opportunity cost.
I think that's real.
I think if you have investors who were early and saw Bitcoin as this is, you know, the next big curve to bet on, and they're seeing the curve right now and they're like, okay, we have a lot of vertical left in AI. I mean, you have limited resources and you have to pick which one to put it on. To me, that's the explanation that resonates the most.
Also, the trust the curves is, I agree with, but you also have to understand which curves you're trusting and how you're expressing.
I was going to poke it back.
Is it just buy everything that claims to be an AI company?
If you trust the curves, Bitcoin's down and silver's in gold is up.
Are you buying silver?
Like, sell your Bitcoin for the stuff going up.
So, I mean, you got to know which curve to trust.
But I want to be clear.
I'm not just saying trust the curves, bro.
Like, I'm actually being pretty, pretty specific about this.
I'm saying energy and computation
and intelligence is a function of those.
So if you try...
But like DK said,
you have to know which curves to cross.
And I'm being very clear.
I have said this before and I mean this.
I don't know if I would ever invest in a startup,
a software startup ever again.
Honestly, I think the companies that matter
are Anthropic, XAI and Elon Co.
And Google and probably OpenAI.
And that's probably it.
And NVIDIA.
We talked about that last time.
And then I think all the energy infrastructure builders...
So NB and Intel are off the table?
I mean, maybe, but like...
They could argue they're an AI company.
Okay, fine, fine.
If you want to add like...
TSMC?
If you want to add like the tier B on there,
they're going to be fine too.
But like, if you just want to maximize returns,
tier A is where I would bet.
But fine.
But still subjective.
And the energy...
It is subjective.
I'm just giving my perspective.
But my point is, you know,
am I buying silver or gold?
Well, I think silver, a big part of the run-up
is it's necessary for solar panels.
And if you're super solar-filled...
Someone says it's down 28% today.
So I literally...
Sure, but look at it over the last six months.
I literally had a call from someone yesterday
saying like,
I'm thinking about selling all my Bitcoin.
I would talk to a friend and sell all my Bitcoin and buy like gold and silver because it's going up.
And I'm like, that is just crazy.
I mean, I basically made the point you made.
It's like, you know, history doesn't necessarily repeat, right?
I mean, basically, what's your thesis, right?
Yes.
That's what's important.
I agree.
And don't make these sudden like momentum buys or sells.
I want to be very clear.
There's a big difference between the momentum and it's hard.
And you want to think about this as rationally as possible.
Like there's just like, hey man, like, you know, it's 2017 again, like we're up all the way to 20K. Let's keep going. Then we crash, right? I think there's a fundamental difference between do you believe this is momentum and it's just going to come down and maybe there's like some medium ground where it is short term or do you really believe we're at the early stages of a takeoff and the takeoff is about to go vertical?
And like, you know, again, you can debate like, what do you do if that's the case?
But, and I'm not saying Bitcoin is a bad thing.
There's a very, very good case that Bitcoin is one of the only assets that does well in
that world where there's AI takeoff.
But like, I think it really comes down to like, what I'm noticing in the world is there's
a bifurcation.
There are people that are crazy AGI pilled.
Most of them are the ones actually developing the models.
And then there's people that are not yet.
And that's what I see as a split.
Just another anecdote.
A person called me who has a fairly good amount of Bitcoin holdings,
and they're talking about buying copper.
And I'm like, do you even know why?
I don't know the thesis.
It's gone up 6x, I think.
I looked it up.
It's gone up 6x the past few years or whatever.
I guess that's the reason why.
But I mean, obviously, these commodities like copper or silver,
clearly they are valuable.
They're used.
but they're not really
they don't really have
or in my opinion
they should not have
a monetary premium
and I don't know
actually I don't even really know
how much monetary premium
they have
but they're clearly valuable
and they have these
industrial uses
commercial uses
so if
demand supply
gets out of whack
you want to
you know
supply is exceeding
or demand exceeding supply
owning it
can make sense
but my
but it's just a
first of all
it's a very different
investment
than gold
or certainly Bitcoin.
Gold has some industrial use,
but it's primarily monetary premium.
The other is much less monetary premium.
Bitcoin is pure monetary premium
because it has no industrial use cases.
Yeah.
And so, first of all,
it's a very different investment.
But then the second thing I'd ask is like,
okay, looking at future TAM
and compare it like,
I actually think the run up in gold
is phenomenal news for Bitcoin.
Because gold's gone from about $10 trillion to almost $40 trillion.
Yeah.
Really?
Oh, shit.
It's like, I mean, I haven't checked the price today, but, you know, it hit like $37 plus trillion.
Oh, my goodness.
Which is like, we were...
We were looking at like, okay, now all of a sudden, I mean, it used to be this sort of like, I mean, you know, Bitcoin's a sideshow, but like gold is definitely a sideshow compared to like the bond and stock market.
But we are looking at U.S. bond market and gold is almost the same size.
As the U.S. bond market.
It's over half the size of the U.S. stock market.
Wow.
So, like, they're now comparable.
I mean, if it goes to 10K, then it's the same size, right?
So that's...
Do you warm up to the idea of not holding S&P 500 index?
What? Oh, what?
Oh, I'll let you guys discuss this.
I'll be right back.
I still don't understand that argument.
Drops it all and walks out.
I still recommend people who want stock exposure
and to keep it simple,
just buy that S&P 500 index.
It's like...
So this one does.
Very, very low fees.
Very, very good tax properties.
And you get diverse exposure.
There we go.
I'm not here to show stock indexes.
But my point is,
I think it's gold depreciation is good news.
It's good news for Bitcoin.
because first of all,
for the digital gold narrative,
what's the TAM?
Well, it always used to be,
well, gold's...
The easiest explanation
to someone who's not orange-pilled yet
from an investor standpoint
has always been digital gold.
And it's like,
well, it's $10 trillion.
So if we go from $100 billion
to $10 trillion,
you can get...
So now it's,
well, now it's $40 trillion, right?
I mean, because then Bitcoin
at $2 trillion,
and it's like,
well, it could still 5x from now.
And then all of a sudden,
like Satan and others
are inventing new dams.
Like, oh, it's going to take over
the entire economy
and be a trillion dollar,
you know, or,
sorry, not trillion,
but like a thousand trillion,
a quadrillion, right?
There's ways you can draw
the entire economy.
I've seen real estate estimates
from 300 to 600 trillion.
So if it's 600 trillion,
maybe you can get to a thousand trillion.
So yeah, so then, okay,
how are we going to 10x or 100x Bitcoin?
Oh, it takes over the entire economy.
But just sticking to the simple explanation,
which I think find the most plausible and believable,
is gold.
Well, now $40 trillion and Bitcoin's under $2 trillion.
That's over 20x.
So is copper going to 20x?
Well, I want to make two points in here
that I think are very clear.
So again, you said Bitcoin is very different
than the metals play.
Gold has some industrial use cases,
but Bitcoin is pure monetary premium.
I want to be clear, like the reason one would be buying into the metal stuff,
absent just like FOMO momentum, which is certainly part of it, is if you listen to someone like Elon
saying he's going to put hundreds of gigawatts of compute in space in three years. And I know
sometimes Elon doesn't always hit his timeframe, but let's say he's even directionally right.
Then you look, you say, hmm, what might one need to build hundreds of gigawatts of compute? And you
go work backwards silver for the solar panels what's in the batteries i think that that's like
the the use case of what's happening now is industrial that has nothing to do with bitcoin
silver out there well and so and so i think and then if you want to go to the next level right
then you say okay well if if i mean this is always the reason that bitcoin was proposed is like you
know we're going to have asteroid if you really believe in the singularity and all that's going
to happen quickly then you're like okay we'll just go either you know mine the gold and silver from
asteroids or we'll figure out alchemy and we'll just make it here on earth and like if we have
free energy then like in theory that should be possible so i think that then brings you back to
bitcoin as bitcoin is the perfect store value monetary premium but but you know time frame
matters like are we talking this is six months six years like that's a question um and then i think
you know i would be reticent not to to ask i think we as a community the real question i always ask
myself we're violating the bitcoin thesis is has anything fundamentally changed the fact that
precious metals are popping, irrelevant. The fact that all this other stuff, irrelevant.
The question I ask myself is, is there something that has fundamentally changed about Bitcoin?
One possibility is quantum. We've talked about that. I don't know if we have the quantum one
pager out or whatever yet, but that's a real question. I don't think we should ignore it.
But then there's this, to me, the only thing that makes me concerned is the unknown unknowns.
Once you hit AGI, do they break the second law of thermodynamics with new physics? Do they
figure out new form, like break cryptography
in some way that we're not expecting
with quantum or something else.
I don't think those things are likely necessarily,
but when you're racing through singularity,
by definition, you don't know.
And so, I don't know, like, does it make sense
for someone to hold their shiny rock just in case?
But then if you're going there, though,
then you've got to question like
U.S. dollar, treasuries, bonds, stocks.
100%.
All of that could blow up.
It's a totally different world.
And maybe something like gold.
So should stocks go to zero?
Well, it depends.
I mean, everyone except for the four.
Some people who are like,
do quantum or AGI as a threat?
It's like, oh, Bitcoin has no value
because this could happen.
Well, then I would argue,
okay, stocks should have no value.
They literally should be worth nothing.
Because it could.
We can come up with a scenario.
It's possible.
That's possible too.
You've mentioned before in the show
that money is not needed anymore.
And to be clear.
Abundancy.
No one has a need for anything.
So why do we need companies anymore?
But all the companies will go to zero.
So, I mean, I think you have to seriously consider everything.
And who even cares about it?
Who cares if our Bitcoin goes to zero if we have abundancy?
If I have everything I want in life, why do I care about my investment portfolio?
And that's great.
And that's one positive way of looking at it.
So then that's not a reason to sell your Bitcoin.
Because in the world where money still matters, you want to hold Bitcoin, arguably.
In a world where money doesn't matter, then who cares if I was or was not holding Bitcoin?
I agree with you 100%.
To be fair, I think there's another argument, though,
that says, you know,
if something happens during takeoff
that we're not expecting with Bitcoin,
but sadly, and this is the kind of, you know,
maybe less than ideal situation,
stocks are going to get protected basically by violence,
which would be the U.S. military.
Always has been.
That's the other answer.
I'm not saying it's likely.
I'm just saying that's...
Well, in dollar, but I still don't see, like, the...
the whole experience.
Anyway.
Anyways, yeah, for another show.
Anyway, I think one of the things,
one of the properties of Bitcoin
that I think has been, you know,
foundational, fundamental,
like you cannot have Bitcoin without
is the immaculate conception.
Yeah.
And with bots and AGI
potentially around the corner
happening now, maybe during the show.
Yeah, exactly.
You could imagine,
if there were a better way,
you know, it's not,
you could imagine that agents
could come up with a new form of an immaculate conception
that we have not imagined yet.
Now, that doesn't, again, it's like super long-tail risk.
It's not a reason to really be concerned,
but it's the kind of thing I'd...
It's not impossible.
I think it's worth just like observing.
Let me pull on the string because I think it's really interesting.
So, well, we don't know what this new
fair distribution model would be,
but if somehow it's fair, whatever that means,
it's interesting to think about then
how do people get in, what amounts, etc.
Meaning like, oh, well, if person A has 10 times more money than person B,
are they going to get 10 times more of this new thing or not?
Is that fair or not?
Or is fair that everyone in the world gets the same amount,
in which case it doesn't matter what your current assets are?
And if you're born the day after the distribution.
And if, yeah, and then if you, if, if.
Is that fair?
Permanent underclass, is that what the kids are called?
How would this new immaculate conception be introduced?
I mean, it just seems fundamentally impossible
that the whole world wakes up at the same time.
So if it's like, well, 0.01% of people learn on day one,
and then there's multiple waves of awareness, right?
Well, early awareness is going to still have this valuable Bitcoin,
and they realize, oh, shit, Bitcoin's going to zero
because the AI created a way better system
and they sell their Bitcoin for this new one
and they accumulate a lot of that.
So it still just seems like fundamentally
there'll be waves and whoever's early takes risk.
But what if they're wrong?
And then they dumped all their Bitcoin, oh shit.
And they shouldn't have, right?
So it's the same kind of risk reward trade-off you get
if you're an early adopter or laggard.
So I don't see much different there.
Yeah, I mean, it's more like a thought experiment
than like actual concern.
The other thought I had too,
like if AGI comes up with the new money system
that's way, way, way better.
If we're in a world where AGI is kind of,
if that new money is not good for humans,
but good for it, it's just used by AI.
Yeah.
Then I would argue that humans will still value Bitcoin.
Two economies could emerge.
You know, because like,
well, this money is optimized for us,
not the AI.
Or it also works for the AI,
but it's up for us.
And also we have,
we have our private keys
and the AI can't access them.
where if the AI creates a new money
if the AI
creates its own money
then you live in a world
where can you have your
private access and the AI doesn't have it? I don't know
depending on what that money is
All I know is Vinny's giving us the alpha
it's time to just buy buckets of DRAM boys
That's the new commodity
Spicy show, that's what Nick says
to some other people
I think my big takeaway is
I'm certainly not advocating pandering like that
I just think it's good to go with
eyes wide open and just understand a lot of
things are changing and I mean it's probably
going to be a really awesome time like I think it's important
we keep a positive answer too you know
so like more likely than not it's going to be fun
I have a hard time not just being psyched about all of the
new tools we get to play with and the way
the world's going I mean you know there's good and bad
but on the net seems really good
it's an exciting time to be living
it's never been more
been easier to make your ideas a reality.
It's never been easier to collaborate
with friends, with new
agentic friends.
It's going to be cool.
Alrighty.
Good show, guys.
We will wrap.