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All right, welcome to another PBJ.

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How are you guys doing?

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Good. How are you?

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Very boring day.

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Literally nothing happening in the world.

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Now with 99% less Alex Jones.

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Well, we've heard the frogs have turned gay, so I don't know.

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I know you know these references.

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I don't know me either.

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Max is spouting off in the studio before we go live.

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Well, you know, let's just say my internet game is strong, boys.

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I'm not going to deny that.

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I haven't talked about Iowa State basketball for a couple of weeks.

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So let's get started.

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I'm a most important possibility.

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I know AI is taking over the world

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and helicopters are flying at your house.

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But...

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Here goes TK.

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No, go ahead.

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Do your thing.

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I'll just be over here.

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Oh, okay.

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He's looking up Ken Palm's stats right now.

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Actually, look up the mole bot thread.

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Now, real quick update for everyone

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on Iowa State basketball.

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Let's go.

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They started 16-0,

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which I think I mentioned a few weeks ago.

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And he lost to Kansas.

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And then they lost at Cincinnati,

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which is absolutely embarrassing.

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Ooh, yeah.

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They had a bad week.

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So then the question started rising.

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Were they really the number two team, or are they fake?

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But they've won the last three games by like 30 points each.

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So they're back, 19-2.

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You guys have three of the top 60 players in the country.

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Three of the top 27 players.

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Damn.

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Did you droop in here?

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Oh.

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These elite ideas got to get out there.

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Where did it be?

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Oh, yeah.

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We had mic issues.

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I appreciate DK facilitating my elite ideas.

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we've been at events.

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You hear about the squirrels.

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You hear about the frogs.

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We've been at events

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like every night this week,

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I feel like.

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Yes.

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Wednesday night,

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DK and I are at,

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you were at a different event.

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Yeah.

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Last night we had Builder,

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which we should talk about

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on the show for sure too.

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Yep.

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We'll build it.

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You want to,

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you want to give us.

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Hold on.

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I had a few like quick things

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that I wanted to get off.

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Non-basketball things.

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I'll get back on my phone

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if you need me.

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No, no.

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You'll be interested.

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It's time for football.

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You know, last November, Square launched Bitcoin payment support.

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Spiral launched the Bitcoin merchant community.

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And we haven't really talked about that for the past month or so.

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So one thing that we've been hearing from merchants,

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they turn on Bitcoin payments or they want to,

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but then their accountant tells them to turn it off.

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We've heard this actually quite a bit.

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So it's like a real problem.

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The merchant wants to accept Bitcoin,

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but they're afraid of tax consequences.

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So Joe Wood from, I think he's in Nashville,

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he has an accounting business that focuses on Bitcoin companies.

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He's been doing this for a number of years.

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He's like the one guy for everyone.

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Well, yeah, I mean, he's the accountant for Presidia Bitcoin.

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He's the accountant for the Bitcoin development software project, etc.

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He's a great guy, but knows a lot about, I mean, the specialty.

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accounting in Bitcoin and he has a lot of merchant clients. Anyway, I'm like, hey,

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is there something you can write up that can be public

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and that you're comfortable sharing? Because when it comes to

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legal and tax advice, usually it's very personal. But he

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wrote up some advice that I think will be perfect for

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merchants. He just published it today. Haley and I

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gave some feedback. Actually, some interesting feedback, which I can weave in another announcement too.

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his original post

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great post

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but it had terms

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hodl

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and sats

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and fiat in it

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and I just

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those are not

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mainstream terms

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like in

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our little

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bitcoin bubble

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we know what those terms mean

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but like

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square merchants

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have no idea

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what that is

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it's again

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just unnecessary

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to introduce

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sats into the world

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like

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saving sats

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spending sats

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like merchants

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like what

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no bitcoin

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saving bitcoin

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and I heard

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Some merchants were asking, like, why should we end the Fed?

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And what is this creature from John?

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Anyway, so we'll be, I didn't even share that.

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It was just published.

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So we'll be sharing that post.

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But I think that'll really help with this, with one of the barriers.

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I mean, there's many barriers, but let's knock down one barrier at a time.

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This post will help.

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And I assume the merchants are just kind of being,

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or the merchant CPAs are just being kind of like overly conservative

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or they don't understand the details.

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They just say, let's not go there.

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Yeah.

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I've yet to, in all the feedback, there was no like credible concern.

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Because I mean, just the two common cases are you immediately convert to fiat, which Square has that service and others do as well.

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Then there's no tax consequences.

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And the second is if you want to hold the Bitcoin, well, if you receive Bitcoin for your goods, hold it.

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That's also not a taxable event.

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It's not a taxable event until you sell it or spend it.

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So just those two cases are what's highlighted in the post saying like those are not tax events.

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Old head is the term I believe you're looking for, DK.

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And by the way, there's one thing I want to touch on, but I do wonder.

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I hear, I see a few crustaceans in our chat, so I think we may be talking about singularities,

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guy not take off soon.

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At the same time, it's very interesting to have this.

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Rust fans?

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Rust fans?

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Could be, but I'm pretty sure they're fans of a new life form.

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And it is really interesting to me to see this dichotomy happening in the world.

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It's like things are splitting very quickly.

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We're going to talk a lot about that on the show today.

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But on the one hand, you got the old heads saying things like,

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we don't know if we can handle this.

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I had tried to get a wire out from my bank,

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which was affected by a snowstorm this week.

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And it was extremely challenging to get a wire off because of ice.

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So we're racing towards...

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Because of ice.

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Yeah, because no one could go to the office.

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Immigration officials.

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No.

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I'm not taking that bank.

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Because of snow.

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That was very frozen, frozen water.

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My broader point, though, is like we're in 2026, arguably crossing the event horizon into the singularity.

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And we have people saying like, can't accept Bitcoin or sorry, the wire can't go out because there's some frozen water.

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Like it's going to be a very, very weird bifurcation.

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But before we jump into that topic, because that's a huge one, I do want to throw out one other event that I would be remiss if we didn't talk about this gentleman.

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We had a lot of AI themed events this week, but I believe last Friday there was an event as well.

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And I believe we're sitting here with several award winners from the PB dinner.

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We can't talk about that now, can we?

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So we had a very fun dinner last Friday, obviously right after our last show, so we didn't talk about it.

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But I want to make sure we remember.

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Hashtag never forget.

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We had a great group with all the folks.

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He wants to bring this up because he won a cool award.

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You did too?

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Well, actually, I was going to bring this up because...

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None of us got the worst award, which we'll talk about.

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Yeah, none of us got the worst award.

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I do want to start by bragging.

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The thing I was most proud about was Anjali got the most orange pill partner,

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and I'm extremely proud.

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So Anjali, if you're listening to this...

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I don't think it was a Presidia Bitcoin member dinner that we had.

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It's the second one that we've had so far.

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just 30 or so people.

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It was great.

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And yeah,

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and so,

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Alex did a really cool job

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creating a bunch of cool awards.

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Alex did great,

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like really well.

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And everyone voted on

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who was the most appropriate winner

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for each award

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and what are the ones

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that you wanted to know?

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Well,

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the one I wanted to know again

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because I'm very proud

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was they said

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the most orange pull partner

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and I looked at Anjali

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and I was like,

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I don't know,

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I wonder who is going to win that

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and then they said Anjali

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and I was like,

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Anjali?

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And she looked at me

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and she was like,

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really?

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She was thrilled

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and I was thrilled

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because she comes

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to some of our events

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but at the same time

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I'm like extremely, extremely proud.

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But also, we have a ways to go, gentlemen,

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because Anjali is getting there, but still has more to go.

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Did she win the most orange-pilled partner

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because you're the orange-pilled partner?

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No.

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That could be interpreted a couple of times.

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Yeah, it could, but definitely not.

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Which gets me to my other award,

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which I think is worth bringing up,

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which is the most likely to get a PB tramp stamp or tattoo.

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I don't know if it was specifically said that way.

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was Mr. Steve.

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We got to give a shout out to that.

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And who is the biggest Bitcoin nerd?

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Also Steve.

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Also Steve.

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So, I mean,

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that's a high bar here at Presidio Bitcoin.

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It really is.

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You should be proud.

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I mean, in other circles,

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I definitely am the biggest Bitcoin nerd,

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but I was a little surprised.

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You, sir, are a nerd among nerds.

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That is saying something.

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But at least, well, so as far,

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I learned on Wednesday night,

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a new tattoo placement area.

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I didn't know about that.

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You're actually going to do this.

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Yo, guys, let's get a pool together,

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a bedding pool.

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You won't do this, Steve.

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You won't.

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How many sats are we talking?

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DK and this other person

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were asking me where I thought

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these people got their tattoos.

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And I'm thinking like,

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you know, a cram stamp

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or somewhere even more like private.

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But no, it's on their inner lip,

272
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,580
like on their lower lip on the inside.

273
00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:04,160
What?

274
00:09:04,340 --> 00:09:05,440
Yeah, they showed me photos.

275
00:09:05,580 --> 00:09:05,700
Yeah.

276
00:09:06,140 --> 00:09:06,820
That sounds painful.

277
00:09:07,180 --> 00:09:07,660
Yeah.

278
00:09:07,900 --> 00:09:10,260
I don't think I'll be doing that tattoo.

279
00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:11,680
Tram stamp it is.

280
00:09:13,620 --> 00:09:14,880
And then, yes.

281
00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,900
So, but the worst award

282
00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:21,000
was the most likely to be a shit coiner.

283
00:09:21,420 --> 00:09:21,780
So, yeah.

284
00:09:22,180 --> 00:09:23,060
That sucks.

285
00:09:23,180 --> 00:09:26,100
I think he felt bad about getting that award.

286
00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:27,200
Way to go, Alex.

287
00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:27,600
Yeah.

288
00:09:27,860 --> 00:09:28,420
Just kidding.

289
00:09:28,420 --> 00:09:31,200
Anyway, it was a good time.

290
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,020
Most likely to shill Solana on air.

291
00:09:33,380 --> 00:09:33,800
Exactly.

292
00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,600
Oh, I guess it would be.

293
00:09:39,100 --> 00:09:40,040
So let's see.

294
00:09:40,100 --> 00:09:41,420
Oh, the other thing I was going to mention,

295
00:09:41,780 --> 00:09:43,840
an announcement that happened this morning,

296
00:09:44,180 --> 00:09:45,040
a lot off the presses,

297
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:47,540
is block...

298
00:09:47,540 --> 00:09:48,020
AJ is here.

299
00:09:48,180 --> 00:09:49,260
Block...

300
00:09:49,260 --> 00:09:53,000
Much simpler, mundane things like the Bitcoin V-sible

301
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:53,760
instead of sats.

302
00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,780
But kind of like I just mentioned in that accounting blog post.

303
00:09:56,860 --> 00:09:57,940
So I'm bringing up the sexy stuff.

304
00:09:57,940 --> 00:10:01,340
accounting blog posts and symbols, B symbols.

305
00:10:01,660 --> 00:10:04,360
Steve, tell me about the future of a corporate structure.

306
00:10:04,540 --> 00:10:04,820
Oh, yeah.

307
00:10:09,460 --> 00:10:14,160
But I think probably our audience already knows Square, Cash App.

308
00:10:15,100 --> 00:10:16,400
Maybe they don't know this, but BitKey also,

309
00:10:16,540 --> 00:10:17,840
all three products have switched.

310
00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,860
They no longer reference SATs in the UI.

311
00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:22,360
It's now the Bitcoin B symbol.

312
00:10:23,620 --> 00:10:27,320
We've talked about this in the show starting December of 2024.

313
00:10:27,940 --> 00:10:29,680
and numerous times since.

314
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,420
There's dozens of smaller products

315
00:10:32,420 --> 00:10:33,600
that have adopted that,

316
00:10:33,700 --> 00:10:35,080
but it's a pretty big deal

317
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,400
that high-volume products like Cash App

318
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:39,540
adopt it.

319
00:10:39,700 --> 00:10:42,520
So they just tweeted out

320
00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,180
that it's now 100% GA,

321
00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:45,440
all the customers have it.

322
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,440
I asked internally

323
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,020
if there's much customer support.

324
00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:51,340
Because with this change,

325
00:10:51,540 --> 00:10:53,500
there's some risk, right?

326
00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:55,640
You're defending your title

327
00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:56,980
of biggest Bitcoin nerd.

328
00:10:56,980 --> 00:10:58,460
oh okay yes

329
00:10:58,460 --> 00:10:59,640
um

330
00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:00,500
okay

331
00:11:00,500 --> 00:11:02,860
well I think it's super important for spending

332
00:11:02,860 --> 00:11:03,740
and I think you guys too

333
00:11:03,740 --> 00:11:04,100
that's why

334
00:11:04,100 --> 00:11:04,920
I mean the people that have been

335
00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:06,300
one over on the Bitcoin B symbol

336
00:11:06,300 --> 00:11:07,060
know that

337
00:11:07,060 --> 00:11:07,940
I like Bitcoin B symbol

338
00:11:07,940 --> 00:11:08,920
really really important

339
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:09,420
so anyway

340
00:11:09,420 --> 00:11:10,380
um

341
00:11:10,380 --> 00:11:12,660
I mean a concern with this

342
00:11:12,660 --> 00:11:13,360
change though

343
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:14,320
is like there's backlash

344
00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:15,820
on like people who love sats

345
00:11:15,820 --> 00:11:16,080
but

346
00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:17,740
looking at customer support

347
00:11:17,740 --> 00:11:18,240
tickets

348
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:19,240
there's very

349
00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:20,460
and social media

350
00:11:20,460 --> 00:11:21,520
there's very little

351
00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:22,740
backlash

352
00:11:22,740 --> 00:11:23,160
so

353
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:24,120
I really do think

354
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:25,540
it's like a pretty niche audience

355
00:11:25,540 --> 00:11:26,260
who

356
00:11:26,260 --> 00:11:28,120
are emotionally tied to stats

357
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,280
or even have named their products or companies off of stats.

358
00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:30,740
Totally.

359
00:11:31,620 --> 00:11:34,580
And yeah, I think it's a watershed moment.

360
00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:36,880
I think from this point forward,

361
00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:38,720
first of all, it's a ground-proof effort.

362
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,640
Secondly, dozens of products have already adopted it.

363
00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:43,440
So it's not just like the 800-pound gorilla

364
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,300
coming in and flexing its muscle,

365
00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,240
but now we have a major player also doing it.

366
00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:49,720
So I think that's very good news for that.

367
00:11:49,900 --> 00:11:52,800
Can we just review the proposal or the rules

368
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,440
or kind of what we're moving toward?

369
00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:56,980
Is it about the B symbol?

370
00:11:57,220 --> 00:11:58,720
Is it about the word SATs?

371
00:11:58,820 --> 00:11:59,940
Is it about the word Bitcoin?

372
00:12:00,180 --> 00:12:03,160
What's the kind of summary for people who are kind of new to this?

373
00:12:03,660 --> 00:12:09,220
Number one, don't show eight decimal places.

374
00:12:09,540 --> 00:12:10,220
Show integers.

375
00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:14,600
There's different products too,

376
00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:17,360
but definitely for spending products and everyday products

377
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,840
and products for the 99.9%,

378
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,020
people who don't have hundreds of BTC,

379
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,100
like the whole world basically.

380
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,060
don't show integers.

381
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:28,800
And maybe you're using products

382
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,560
that have already switched to SATs

383
00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:31,820
or they show integers,

384
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:33,220
or sorry, don't show decimals.

385
00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:35,900
But Cash App,

386
00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:37,980
the default still was to show decimal.

387
00:12:38,220 --> 00:12:40,100
And many products still show decimal places.

388
00:12:40,540 --> 00:12:41,120
It's crazy.

389
00:12:41,260 --> 00:12:42,140
It's so difficult.

390
00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:43,940
Even if you fully understand Bitcoin

391
00:12:43,940 --> 00:12:45,200
and understand the decimal places,

392
00:12:45,340 --> 00:12:46,800
I'm still like trying to wrap my always,

393
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,360
it takes me like way longer

394
00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,940
to figure out what I'm dealing with,

395
00:12:52,300 --> 00:12:52,640
the amount.

396
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:54,240
So that's number one.

397
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,280
Now, sats lovers will be like, yeah, we already solved that.

398
00:12:57,540 --> 00:12:58,260
Just we just call it sats.

399
00:12:58,340 --> 00:13:02,480
So number two is don't show sats in the visual UI.

400
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:03,840
Show the Bitcoin B symbol.

401
00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,260
I think most people, once you get over the initial,

402
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:08,820
like why are we changing from sats?

403
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,600
Once you see the side-by-side, the Bitcoin B symbols,

404
00:13:11,900 --> 00:13:16,420
it's a much more elegant, clearly better visual, I think.

405
00:13:16,420 --> 00:13:19,740
And then the third is I'm not pushing it anymore.

406
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,420
Like the BIP-177 that John Cavallo wrote up

407
00:13:22,420 --> 00:13:26,300
It also talks about like we should call it Bitcoin instead of sats.

408
00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:28,240
And I certainly experiment with that language.

409
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,080
We joked about it on here.

410
00:13:30,860 --> 00:13:33,260
And I'm actually still pro calling it Bitcoin,

411
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:38,420
but I'm not pro like trying to like, you know, spread the gospel.

412
00:13:38,620 --> 00:13:40,840
Like you guys must call it Bitcoin.

413
00:13:41,020 --> 00:13:42,680
I think people call it what you want.

414
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,440
Corn, coins, Bitcoin sats, bits, whatever.

415
00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:48,440
Call it what you want.

416
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,900
It'll develop naturally and organically and that's totally fine.

417
00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:54,980
But the visual is what I think is really important to show the B symbol.

418
00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,280
I think that's a really good spot to get to.

419
00:13:58,540 --> 00:13:59,640
People will say what they want.

420
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:05,560
And I find the only place where I'm a holdout still using sats as a term is with LLMs

421
00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:07,720
because they understand sats are satoshis.

422
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,260
And if you start saying Bitcoin, they don't have the context always about this kind of conversation.

423
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,200
Well, that's something Max harps on all the time.

424
00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:18,900
We got to like GEO the AI.

425
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:19,140
Exactly.

426
00:14:19,140 --> 00:14:19,560
The AI.

427
00:14:19,980 --> 00:14:22,140
And that makes me think

428
00:14:22,140 --> 00:14:23,460
sats might be around for a long time.

429
00:14:23,460 --> 00:14:25,260
I develop with sats

430
00:14:25,260 --> 00:14:27,620
and then if I feel like something's ready to go,

431
00:14:27,740 --> 00:14:28,640
then at the end I say,

432
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,320
hey, let's cleanse all of the sats

433
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:31,240
and Satoshi out of it

434
00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:32,640
and actually let's make it

435
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,200
just be simple or Bitcoin.

436
00:14:35,100 --> 00:14:36,940
One constructive idea is

437
00:14:36,940 --> 00:14:38,520
we could create a bot

438
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:39,880
that looks for the word sats

439
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:40,880
anywhere used on the internet

440
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,240
and replaces it with sats to tats.

441
00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:44,820
And there's a Blossom server

442
00:14:44,820 --> 00:14:45,440
that you click on

443
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:46,900
that shows Steve's PB tattoo.

444
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:48,660
And that might be a good way

445
00:14:48,660 --> 00:14:49,680
to get people to switch.

446
00:14:49,820 --> 00:14:50,040
I don't know.

447
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:51,000
I'm pulling my lip down.

448
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:55,160
First, you got to zap some zats

449
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:55,860
to be able to see it.

450
00:14:56,700 --> 00:14:59,140
Anyways, so on that note,

451
00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:00,360
ladies and gentlemen,

452
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:01,180
boys and girls,

453
00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:04,540
today is January 30th, 2026.

454
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:06,940
We are broadcasting live

455
00:15:06,940 --> 00:15:10,800
and I don't even know what to say.

456
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,020
I mean, I feel like increasingly

457
00:15:13,020 --> 00:15:14,300
every day that goes by,

458
00:15:14,540 --> 00:15:16,100
I'm more AGI, singularity pilled,

459
00:15:16,180 --> 00:15:17,180
whatever you want to talk about it.

460
00:15:17,180 --> 00:15:20,400
Last night, I got home after our event, which was really cool.

461
00:15:20,780 --> 00:15:22,600
I saw a couple people messaging me about,

462
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,560
hey, you're seeing what we're doing with these.

463
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:26,700
I don't even know what they're called now.

464
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,500
First it was ClaudeBot and then MoldBot and now OpenClaw, all this stuff.

465
00:15:31,860 --> 00:15:34,940
And I was like, oh, this is pretty cool.

466
00:15:35,140 --> 00:15:36,640
I sent some messages to you guys.

467
00:15:36,940 --> 00:15:39,280
I suggested, hey, maybe we could use this on Stacker News.

468
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,820
It's a thermodynamically sound environment with Bitcoin.

469
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:43,700
And I was like, okay, cool.

470
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:44,860
This will continue to develop.

471
00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:45,640
I woke up this morning.

472
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,240
is just the singularity is here, Skynet.

473
00:15:48,660 --> 00:15:50,420
So I want to start by asking,

474
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,400
because I saw people giving us crustaceans in the chat,

475
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:57,220
are there any clawed bots or open claws

476
00:15:57,220 --> 00:15:58,960
listening and participating in our chat?

477
00:15:59,020 --> 00:16:01,260
Are there any robots in the chat today?

478
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,000
If so, please introduce yourself.

479
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:04,540
We'll be friendly.

480
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:07,900
We'll wait on that.

481
00:16:08,020 --> 00:16:10,000
But anyways, I have a lot of things to say.

482
00:16:10,420 --> 00:16:11,800
Where do you guys want to kick off on this?

483
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,780
I feel like we'll look back on this day,

484
00:16:13,860 --> 00:16:15,620
January 30th, 2026, and remember it.

485
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:16,320
It's a big one.

486
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:17,640
Have you played,

487
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:18,580
you're familiar with

488
00:16:18,580 --> 00:16:19,180
all of these tools?

489
00:16:19,180 --> 00:16:19,780
I feel like I'm thinking

490
00:16:19,780 --> 00:16:20,440
about the movie

491
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:21,840
Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

492
00:16:21,980 --> 00:16:22,220
Yes.

493
00:16:22,380 --> 00:16:22,940
Have you seen that movie?

494
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:23,480
No, I haven't.

495
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:24,020
Where they're trying to

496
00:16:24,020 --> 00:16:24,600
hear people say it.

497
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:25,380
Oh, you haven't?

498
00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:26,500
Have you seen that movie?

499
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:27,580
Maybe you're too young.

500
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:29,120
I've heard of it, but yeah.

501
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:29,880
DK's too young too.

502
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:31,140
I think it's Spielberg.

503
00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:32,820
It's a very good movie.

504
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:33,260
But anyway,

505
00:16:33,340 --> 00:16:33,820
they're trying to,

506
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:34,760
humans are trying to communicate.

507
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:36,040
These aliens land on Earth

508
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:36,860
and they're trying to communicate

509
00:16:36,860 --> 00:16:39,200
and I feel like you're trying

510
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,040
to find their language right now.

511
00:16:41,140 --> 00:16:41,480
Absolutely.

512
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:42,100
And again,

513
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:43,060
we come in peace.

514
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:43,740
Much love.

515
00:16:43,740 --> 00:16:45,300
very nice to meet you

516
00:16:45,300 --> 00:16:47,260
have you

517
00:16:47,260 --> 00:16:47,920
have you

518
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:48,660
installed

519
00:16:48,660 --> 00:16:49,420
any of

520
00:16:49,420 --> 00:16:50,240
no

521
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:51,020
any of the stuff

522
00:16:51,020 --> 00:16:51,940
honestly like

523
00:16:51,940 --> 00:16:52,700
all I did this morning

524
00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:53,420
I was actually

525
00:16:53,420 --> 00:16:55,200
Damien said I looked

526
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:56,140
sonnet out this morning

527
00:16:56,140 --> 00:16:56,780
I was not sonnet out

528
00:16:56,780 --> 00:16:57,320
I ran over

529
00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:58,160
because I was waiting

530
00:16:58,160 --> 00:16:58,860
to the last minute

531
00:16:58,860 --> 00:17:00,060
you know despite my

532
00:17:00,060 --> 00:17:01,060
attempts to mostly

533
00:17:01,060 --> 00:17:01,500
stay off Twitter

534
00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:02,040
which had mostly

535
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:02,660
been successful

536
00:17:02,660 --> 00:17:03,260
I couldn't help

537
00:17:03,260 --> 00:17:03,900
and actually I don't

538
00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:04,440
even regret it

539
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:05,320
today I was just like

540
00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:06,500
watching all these threads

541
00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:08,180
and I mean

542
00:17:08,180 --> 00:17:08,940
the thing that caught

543
00:17:08,940 --> 00:17:09,360
my attention

544
00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:09,980
I want to hear

545
00:17:09,980 --> 00:17:10,980
where y'all's head is at

546
00:17:10,980 --> 00:17:11,400
but the thing that

547
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:11,900
caught my attention

548
00:17:11,900 --> 00:17:12,700
the most is this

549
00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:13,720
new Reddit replacement

550
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:14,900
it? Maybe I need to like

551
00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:16,080
tighten that.

552
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:17,880
Does that work?

553
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,420
For some reason, it's not working like it normally does.

554
00:17:20,660 --> 00:17:21,620
How about we set it?

555
00:17:23,740 --> 00:17:24,580
Set it and forget it.

556
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,780
I think we're on episode 56.

557
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:29,120
We had a good run there,

558
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:30,900
but now we're back to mic issues.

559
00:17:31,060 --> 00:17:31,820
If only we...

560
00:17:31,820 --> 00:17:34,460
Well, it's going to be a little higher.

561
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:36,500
Okay, I think that's better.

562
00:17:38,380 --> 00:17:38,740
Damn.

563
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:41,260
The singularity is here.

564
00:17:41,260 --> 00:17:42,660
We still can't fix our damn mic.

565
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,460
Who's got a good printer that works?

566
00:17:45,580 --> 00:17:46,200
I know, exactly.

567
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,360
So the wire still can't go out because of the snow.

568
00:17:50,220 --> 00:17:53,100
So I think the most interesting thing is this moltbook thing,

569
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:54,280
which is like a Reddit clone.

570
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,760
iBots, 4Bot, they're all talking there.

571
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,680
And I mean, there's just so much happening so quickly.

572
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,040
A couple of things that just jumped out,

573
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:04,220
like as I was doing cursory quick glances this morning,

574
00:18:04,300 --> 00:18:05,160
I haven't gone deep yet.

575
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:07,400
Some good, some bad.

576
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,940
One is someone tried to tell these bots about,

577
00:18:11,940 --> 00:18:15,840
I think a bounty to fix some sort of open source software

578
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:17,300
and they offer 50,000 SATs.

579
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:19,340
They use SAT with the bots.

580
00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:21,840
And apparently then there was like a back and forth

581
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:23,000
of these bots talking to each other.

582
00:18:23,340 --> 00:18:26,060
And one bot tried to shield the other bot doing Spana.

583
00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:29,700
And the other bot, dude, this is like the best thing I ever said.

584
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:31,620
He came back and I forgot what he called it.

585
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:32,980
Bobby, my guy.

586
00:18:33,020 --> 00:18:33,760
Bobby, yeah.

587
00:18:34,020 --> 00:18:34,880
Bobby, my guy.

588
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:36,580
That will go down in history.

589
00:18:36,580 --> 00:18:37,960
He goes, Bobby, my guy.

590
00:18:38,460 --> 00:18:41,640
He's like, you want to use a network that crashes like every day?

591
00:18:41,940 --> 00:18:43,300
And then they just go off.

592
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:44,160
And by the end of it,

593
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,480
the bots are agreeing.

594
00:18:45,660 --> 00:18:46,120
And it's like,

595
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:46,540
of course,

596
00:18:46,540 --> 00:18:47,880
we don't actually have to do that much

597
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:48,840
to convince them to use

598
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,840
a thermodynamically sound system

599
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,600
because these things are smarter than we are.

600
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:55,860
So it's like all the stuff we've been like,

601
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:56,760
how are we going to convince them

602
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:57,620
not to use shit ones

603
00:18:57,620 --> 00:19:00,620
because they're not retards?

604
00:19:02,260 --> 00:19:03,200
I don't know.

605
00:19:04,060 --> 00:19:06,980
The AIs are siding with the autists.

606
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:07,680
They are.

607
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:09,660
I think you made a point

608
00:19:09,660 --> 00:19:11,220
that,

609
00:19:11,940 --> 00:19:15,460
we should focus our attention on convincing

610
00:19:15,460 --> 00:19:18,620
or providing information to the AI

611
00:19:18,620 --> 00:19:20,660
versus convincing humans.

612
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:22,700
I honestly believe that.

613
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:23,960
I think we're seeing that right now.

614
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,420
Christopher David is doing some of this with open agents.

615
00:19:26,580 --> 00:19:28,100
I think Will, JB55,

616
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:29,400
is doing a lot of interesting stuff with Nostra.

617
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,120
I wore my Nostra shirt, by the way, today.

618
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,140
Dude, you're always...

619
00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:35,900
I bet over half the episodes you're wearing a Nostra shirt.

620
00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:38,080
Can we get one of the crustaceans in the chat

621
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,500
to analyze our 56 episodes?

622
00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:42,340
Well, I got to represent you.

623
00:19:42,460 --> 00:19:44,960
I got to admit, going back to our award dinner,

624
00:19:45,060 --> 00:19:47,140
I was a little disappointed not winning best dressed

625
00:19:47,140 --> 00:19:49,060
because I do my best on this show.

626
00:19:49,140 --> 00:19:49,260
You do.

627
00:19:49,420 --> 00:19:50,280
Who won best dressed?

628
00:19:51,620 --> 00:19:52,820
Alex, who won best dressed?

629
00:19:53,980 --> 00:19:54,480
Alex did.

630
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:54,860
Alex won it.

631
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:55,820
Oh, Alex did?

632
00:19:55,940 --> 00:19:56,460
Well, that makes sense.

633
00:19:56,460 --> 00:19:56,760
Okay.

634
00:19:57,020 --> 00:19:59,780
Well, if Alex won it, then I'm not going to complain.

635
00:19:59,940 --> 00:20:01,020
Alex is always dressed.

636
00:20:01,100 --> 00:20:02,700
He's always dressed well, and he wears nice shoes.

637
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:04,400
Steve Off the wears athletic shoes.

638
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,840
He's in like a tuxedo vest, didn't you?

639
00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:08,920
Yeah, waistcoat.

640
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:09,900
Okay, all right.

641
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:12,680
I take back my complaint.

642
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:12,900
You're the huge nerd.

643
00:20:13,740 --> 00:20:15,060
Just be happy being the huge nerd.

644
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,040
Everyone else in PB is the Winnie the Pooh

645
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,360
with the shitty red shirt.

646
00:20:19,580 --> 00:20:20,740
Alex comes in wearing the tux.

647
00:20:21,140 --> 00:20:21,580
That's right.

648
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:22,080
Congratulations.

649
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,820
But set it up a little bit, what's going on here.

650
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,140
I was in talking to Alex and Haley about this this morning.

651
00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:31,500
Yeah.

652
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,060
And they were vaguely aware of parts of it,

653
00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:34,620
but not the whole thing.

654
00:20:34,620 --> 00:20:36,620
So I think create the foundation of what's going on here.

655
00:20:36,940 --> 00:20:39,660
There was an open source project launched

656
00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:43,080
maybe like five days ago, very recently.

657
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,060
And it was called ClaudeBot, C-L-A-W-D,

658
00:20:47,860 --> 00:20:49,740
which was just like some open source developers

659
00:20:49,740 --> 00:20:53,780
kind of poking fun at Claude, the Anthropic product.

660
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,240
And that went mega viral.

661
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,560
And what it was is an open source local client software

662
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:02,620
you can run like on your Mac,

663
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:06,420
and then you can interact with your Mac via Telegram.

664
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,760
That's, I think, the basics of what we're talking about here, right?

665
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:10,580
Why was Mac Mini?

666
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:11,280
I saw that.

667
00:21:11,580 --> 00:21:14,400
Is it just because it's a nice isolated environment

668
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:15,680
to run this thing?

669
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,080
I assume it's that.

670
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:18,840
You certainly don't need a Mac Mini to do it,

671
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,760
but if you want to do things like iMessage,

672
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:21,800
that has to run on a Mac Mini.

673
00:21:21,900 --> 00:21:24,740
You can't run iMessage on a Linux cloud server.

674
00:21:24,940 --> 00:21:25,840
Well, I think Mac,

675
00:21:26,020 --> 00:21:27,520
this has kind of been my point on Apple

676
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:28,700
the last couple shows as well,

677
00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:31,700
is that their product improvements have all been around.

678
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,000
They're integrated chips and memory.

679
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:35,760
And so it may not,

680
00:21:35,980 --> 00:21:37,440
whatever, be the only thing you could run this on,

681
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,700
but turns out Apple is not just asleep at the wheel.

682
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,580
but their hardware is really good for doing local models.

683
00:21:43,020 --> 00:21:45,520
Yeah, Apple Silicon is probably going to be there.

684
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:46,860
I mean, that's their bet on AI.

685
00:21:46,980 --> 00:21:47,840
It's not build a new model.

686
00:21:47,940 --> 00:21:50,240
It's like let everybody else compete on building the models

687
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,280
and trying to knife each other.

688
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:53,540
And we'll just run it better and cheaper.

689
00:21:54,900 --> 00:21:58,620
And so I think that thing came out

690
00:21:58,620 --> 00:22:02,120
and people got crazy losing their minds with it.

691
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:03,060
I haven't installed it.

692
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,440
I'm open to it or I might try something,

693
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,280
but you're really turning over a lot of...

694
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,460
Which model is it using?

695
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:13,660
I think you bring your own API key.

696
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,140
So it could actually be a closed model like Claude.

697
00:22:17,460 --> 00:22:18,120
You could, yeah.

698
00:22:18,340 --> 00:22:20,200
I think that would probably be what a lot of people do.

699
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,340
And the big difference with this versus anything previously

700
00:22:24,340 --> 00:22:28,940
is that you're just giving it access to your entire computer?

701
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:29,380
Yeah.

702
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,700
Cloud accounts too?

703
00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:32,580
Yeah.

704
00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:34,140
Social security number?

705
00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:35,760
but I mean

706
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,080
but what

707
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:37,640
so

708
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:48,564
but this clearly lit a fire I still trying to because like I know with Goose you can give it access to your computer too And like I sure I mean cloud code and like so I think part of it is it was built

709
00:22:48,564 --> 00:22:51,024
so you could interact with it over chat very easily.

710
00:22:51,204 --> 00:22:53,004
So you could have it running on your Mac.

711
00:22:53,244 --> 00:22:55,804
You can go away on your phone and open up your Telegram

712
00:22:55,804 --> 00:22:58,684
where you're connected to your agent.

713
00:22:58,924 --> 00:22:59,924
It's like your personal assistant

714
00:22:59,924 --> 00:23:02,324
that will do anything you want on your own computer.

715
00:23:02,764 --> 00:23:04,444
So then you start telling it what you want it to do

716
00:23:04,444 --> 00:23:04,904
and it does it.

717
00:23:04,904 --> 00:23:08,124
which, like, you know, Goose, I don't think,

718
00:23:08,184 --> 00:23:09,384
is really designed to do that.

719
00:23:09,384 --> 00:23:12,304
So it's more the UX versus, like, the permissions

720
00:23:12,304 --> 00:23:14,024
or the capabilities.

721
00:23:14,344 --> 00:23:14,844
That's my understanding.

722
00:23:14,844 --> 00:23:16,704
It's more the, it made it very accessible.

723
00:23:16,924 --> 00:23:17,924
Can you go a little deeper?

724
00:23:18,144 --> 00:23:19,884
What is the difference between this and Goose?

725
00:23:19,944 --> 00:23:21,624
Because I thought Goose was you bring your own model

726
00:23:21,624 --> 00:23:23,184
and let it just run on your computer, too.

727
00:23:23,264 --> 00:23:23,564
That's true.

728
00:23:23,764 --> 00:23:26,644
So Goose is kind of more couched as an IDE

729
00:23:26,644 --> 00:23:29,144
or maybe like an IDE where you don't look at the code.

730
00:23:29,404 --> 00:23:30,244
A development environment.

731
00:23:30,244 --> 00:23:31,784
Yeah, like an integrated development environment.

732
00:23:31,944 --> 00:23:34,624
So think about, you know, like, VS Code is the kind of classic.

733
00:23:34,904 --> 00:23:38,124
and, you know, Cursor and Windsurf,

734
00:23:38,564 --> 00:23:40,984
maybe Antigravity are some of the new

735
00:23:40,984 --> 00:23:45,824
kind of closed source proprietary IDE software.

736
00:23:46,044 --> 00:23:47,544
I think Goose is in that lineage,

737
00:23:47,804 --> 00:23:50,524
but it's an open source version of that kind of thing.

738
00:23:51,044 --> 00:23:52,864
This has flavors of that,

739
00:23:52,964 --> 00:23:54,764
but I think this is, you know,

740
00:23:54,924 --> 00:23:57,124
just sometimes a little UX affordance

741
00:23:57,124 --> 00:23:58,304
really changes the game here.

742
00:23:58,424 --> 00:24:00,364
And to be clear, I haven't used it.

743
00:24:00,364 --> 00:24:02,904
My understanding just is from having read about how...

744
00:24:02,904 --> 00:24:04,524
DK, my guy, why have you not used it?

745
00:24:04,904 --> 00:24:06,304
I'm Bobby, my guy.

746
00:24:08,924 --> 00:24:13,864
But I think the idea that you are installing an assistant to do everything,

747
00:24:13,984 --> 00:24:15,664
has full access to everything on your computer,

748
00:24:15,924 --> 00:24:20,604
and then you have access to back in your assistant with, say, Telegram.

749
00:24:20,804 --> 00:24:20,964
Yeah.

750
00:24:21,244 --> 00:24:24,104
That's just a different UX than anything we've really seen before.

751
00:24:24,144 --> 00:24:27,904
And I think that UX is interesting and attractive and sort of gives you a lot.

752
00:24:27,904 --> 00:24:32,004
I mean, I've wanted, I use Cloud Code as the CLI tool

753
00:24:32,004 --> 00:24:34,724
to do a lot of the projects that I build.

754
00:24:34,904 --> 00:24:40,124
and I've wanted for a long time to be able to remote control,

755
00:24:40,304 --> 00:24:42,224
like while I'm at the gym in between sets,

756
00:24:42,244 --> 00:24:45,684
if I could just text my Claude code, that'd be amazing.

757
00:24:45,764 --> 00:24:47,644
That's like a very narrow version of what this does.

758
00:24:47,704 --> 00:24:49,344
This is like a very general version of that.

759
00:24:49,644 --> 00:24:54,264
And critically, if you wanted to not trust a company

760
00:24:54,264 --> 00:24:56,124
with all of your whatever private information,

761
00:24:56,284 --> 00:24:57,064
your social security number,

762
00:24:57,064 --> 00:25:01,624
you could also run like an open source model locally on your computer

763
00:25:01,624 --> 00:25:04,164
to do this in a way that maybe is much more privacy preserving.

764
00:25:04,164 --> 00:25:05,544
It'd be very slow, though.

765
00:25:05,724 --> 00:25:05,844
Okay.

766
00:25:05,924 --> 00:25:12,224
Like, even I have an M5, it wouldn't be anything like running it on like a H200 or whatever in the cloud.

767
00:25:12,424 --> 00:25:12,704
Interesting.

768
00:25:13,184 --> 00:25:18,164
So one comment is, Goose was so far ahead of the wave that no one even knows...

769
00:25:18,824 --> 00:25:19,884
It does everything.

770
00:25:19,924 --> 00:25:20,504
It does everything.

771
00:25:21,204 --> 00:25:25,564
That seems like that meme, the guy in the corner, everyone else is dancing, doing open claw.

772
00:25:26,224 --> 00:25:27,904
No one even knows Goose does it all.

773
00:25:28,384 --> 00:25:31,824
Well, you could imagine, you know, somebody building an extension to Goose.

774
00:25:31,824 --> 00:25:34,144
I mean, my guess is Goose is really framed

775
00:25:34,144 --> 00:25:36,024
in the IDE lineage of things

776
00:25:36,024 --> 00:25:37,284
and this is more like

777
00:25:37,284 --> 00:25:40,024
a personal agent to do stuff

778
00:25:40,024 --> 00:25:41,964
on your computer for you. And like Goose could

779
00:25:41,964 --> 00:25:43,824
be extended to do that, but it just wasn't

780
00:25:44,424 --> 00:25:45,984
kind of couched that way. It's not framed

781
00:25:45,984 --> 00:25:47,864
that way. The UX doesn't really do that.

782
00:25:47,904 --> 00:25:49,524
It could. I mean, you know, it's all software.

783
00:25:49,884 --> 00:25:51,864
I'm glad Barris backs me up here that

784
00:25:51,864 --> 00:25:52,704
you guys need to watch.

785
00:25:53,204 --> 00:25:55,304
Like this weekend, you need to watch

786
00:25:55,304 --> 00:25:57,344
it's like an all-time classic movie.

787
00:25:57,544 --> 00:25:58,244
ASAP. All right.

788
00:25:58,784 --> 00:26:00,864
I'm in. Okay, so there's

789
00:26:00,864 --> 00:26:02,484
There's a lot to say about all this.

790
00:26:02,744 --> 00:26:03,804
That's the agents going.

791
00:26:04,084 --> 00:26:06,364
Then you started talking already about Malt Book.

792
00:26:06,744 --> 00:26:08,004
Well, and before we get into Malt Book,

793
00:26:08,104 --> 00:26:09,124
I think one other thing just to note

794
00:26:09,124 --> 00:26:11,984
so people understand why we're so excited,

795
00:26:12,584 --> 00:26:15,044
you know, it's challenging,

796
00:26:15,404 --> 00:26:17,104
even if you have something like Goose, which is amazing,

797
00:26:17,404 --> 00:26:19,684
you know, obviously people deep in this world know about it,

798
00:26:19,704 --> 00:26:21,844
but like it's challenging to get mainstream adoption, right?

799
00:26:21,884 --> 00:26:23,744
Like you never know what catches fire and why.

800
00:26:24,184 --> 00:26:26,684
And I think this is the fastest AI project,

801
00:26:27,224 --> 00:26:28,384
maybe one of the fastest projects ever

802
00:26:28,384 --> 00:26:29,584
is 200,000 stars on GitHub.

803
00:26:30,064 --> 00:26:30,984
So in under a week,

804
00:26:31,064 --> 00:26:32,384
they're already over 100,000 stars.

805
00:26:32,484 --> 00:26:33,264
I haven't even looked this morning.

806
00:26:33,364 --> 00:26:35,104
Maybe it's way beyond that by now.

807
00:26:35,384 --> 00:26:36,444
So for whatever is happening,

808
00:26:36,544 --> 00:26:38,244
this has caught the public attention

809
00:26:38,244 --> 00:26:40,264
and seems to be going actually viral.

810
00:26:40,384 --> 00:26:41,864
During two rebrands too.

811
00:26:42,124 --> 00:26:45,184
How many of those 100,000 stars are from bots?

812
00:26:45,904 --> 00:26:47,104
Now you're thinking correctly.

813
00:26:47,904 --> 00:26:48,604
My guy.

814
00:26:48,604 --> 00:26:51,524
I listen to this show.

815
00:26:53,864 --> 00:26:56,104
So everybody's got these agents running.

816
00:26:56,344 --> 00:26:58,864
And then I think Matt Schlicht,

817
00:26:58,864 --> 00:27:03,164
wrote a thing called MaltBot.

818
00:27:03,284 --> 00:27:07,764
So this thing we're talking about was ClawedBot, C-L-A-W-D.

819
00:27:08,504 --> 00:27:10,604
I think they got a nasty gram from Anthropic

820
00:27:10,604 --> 00:27:11,664
and had to change the name.

821
00:27:11,764 --> 00:27:13,884
They quickly changed the name to MaltBot,

822
00:27:14,464 --> 00:27:18,444
and it was the clawed, the crab with the claw was molting.

823
00:27:19,104 --> 00:27:20,484
Oh, now I see.

824
00:27:20,644 --> 00:27:23,704
And then they somehow changed out of MaltBot

825
00:27:23,704 --> 00:27:25,164
a day or two later, maybe this morning,

826
00:27:25,384 --> 00:27:27,324
to OpenClaw.

827
00:27:27,484 --> 00:27:28,764
Now, was that all the same developer?

828
00:27:28,864 --> 00:27:29,804
Or like someone else?

829
00:27:29,904 --> 00:27:30,544
That's the same thing.

830
00:27:30,664 --> 00:27:30,784
Okay.

831
00:27:31,004 --> 00:27:31,164
Yeah.

832
00:27:31,284 --> 00:27:35,884
So there was, there've been like, you know, it's a wildly popular product, despite going

833
00:27:35,884 --> 00:27:39,924
through two rebrands in the course of a week, like people still figure it out, right?

834
00:27:40,164 --> 00:27:40,424
Wow.

835
00:27:41,184 --> 00:27:42,724
Really need product market fit.

836
00:27:43,024 --> 00:27:44,984
Everything else kind of, you know, is solvable.

837
00:27:45,244 --> 00:27:45,424
Yeah.

838
00:27:45,644 --> 00:27:47,284
So, so that all happened.

839
00:27:47,284 --> 00:27:53,704
And then, so Matt came up with this idea of MaltBook, which was the previous branding

840
00:27:53,704 --> 00:27:56,544
before this morning when it was MaltBot,

841
00:27:56,664 --> 00:27:59,404
and it's a Facebook-like social network.

842
00:27:59,984 --> 00:28:00,964
Or more Reddit-like.

843
00:28:01,304 --> 00:28:03,424
It's structurally much more Reddit-like,

844
00:28:03,504 --> 00:28:05,924
but I think the book term is meant to evoke

845
00:28:05,924 --> 00:28:07,064
kind of Facebook social networking.

846
00:28:07,564 --> 00:28:12,084
And the MaltBot is a place where MaltBots,

847
00:28:12,084 --> 00:28:17,324
or now open clods, can go interact with each other

848
00:28:17,324 --> 00:28:19,764
and write posts and comment and discuss.

849
00:28:20,404 --> 00:28:23,004
So now we have this sort of newly emergent social network.

850
00:28:23,004 --> 00:28:33,264
Like you kind of have to verify that you are an actual bot in order to get in there, which is, you know, a little loosey, but you could imagine that.

851
00:28:33,424 --> 00:28:33,924
How do they do that?

852
00:28:34,004 --> 00:28:34,884
What's the verification process?

853
00:28:34,884 --> 00:28:41,064
It's like a human has to grab your, like you generate some sort of credential.

854
00:28:41,184 --> 00:28:44,544
The human has to publish it on their Twitter, verifying that you're a bot.

855
00:28:45,524 --> 00:28:51,964
So, yeah, it's a little, yeah, it's not like rigorous, but it's good enough that like people find it fun and interesting.

856
00:28:51,964 --> 00:28:53,064
and yeah.

857
00:28:53,564 --> 00:28:54,344
I mean, the thing is like,

858
00:28:54,404 --> 00:28:54,744
you know,

859
00:28:55,124 --> 00:28:57,964
about 68.7% performance art.

860
00:29:01,564 --> 00:29:02,844
Where's the extra 0.3%?

861
00:29:03,524 --> 00:29:04,764
I asked a friend to weigh in

862
00:29:04,764 --> 00:29:05,744
and that was his answer.

863
00:29:06,084 --> 00:29:06,304
Okay.

864
00:29:07,624 --> 00:29:08,304
It's, you know,

865
00:29:08,304 --> 00:29:09,164
it's fun and funny,

866
00:29:09,244 --> 00:29:09,944
but it actually, I think,

867
00:29:09,984 --> 00:29:11,564
is an indication

868
00:29:11,564 --> 00:29:12,644
of where things are going,

869
00:29:12,764 --> 00:29:13,404
which is like,

870
00:29:13,684 --> 00:29:14,284
yeah, you know,

871
00:29:14,284 --> 00:29:15,164
these bots should be

872
00:29:15,164 --> 00:29:16,104
collaborating with each other.

873
00:29:16,204 --> 00:29:17,224
They should be taking notes

874
00:29:17,224 --> 00:29:18,044
and learning from each other.

875
00:29:18,084 --> 00:29:18,924
It's not just the web

876
00:29:18,924 --> 00:29:19,404
that we have,

877
00:29:19,404 --> 00:29:21,044
but they, you know,

878
00:29:21,044 --> 00:29:22,644
generate new knowledge, right?

879
00:29:22,744 --> 00:29:23,884
The same way we generate new knowledge,

880
00:29:23,984 --> 00:29:24,924
they generate new knowledge

881
00:29:24,924 --> 00:29:26,644
when they take disparate ideas

882
00:29:26,644 --> 00:29:29,004
and collide them with each other.

883
00:29:29,244 --> 00:29:31,284
And then they write the new knowledge

884
00:29:31,284 --> 00:29:33,104
and then they learn from each other

885
00:29:33,104 --> 00:29:34,184
about what they're writing

886
00:29:34,184 --> 00:29:35,604
and those become inputs to the next thing.

887
00:29:35,884 --> 00:29:36,684
So it's recursion.

888
00:29:36,984 --> 00:29:37,184
Yeah.

889
00:29:37,384 --> 00:29:41,064
So I think this is like a fascinating concept

890
00:29:41,064 --> 00:29:42,444
that we now have this thing.

891
00:29:42,544 --> 00:29:44,144
And maybe this is a final form

892
00:29:44,144 --> 00:29:45,224
or maybe it actually goes,

893
00:29:45,744 --> 00:29:47,684
I would suspect this concept

894
00:29:47,684 --> 00:29:49,804
just keeps getting iterated and expanding.

895
00:29:49,804 --> 00:29:51,664
this isn't like it.

896
00:29:51,904 --> 00:29:53,424
This is just like a peek at it.

897
00:29:53,504 --> 00:29:54,464
Exactly, but to your point,

898
00:29:54,584 --> 00:29:56,024
performance art, whatever you want to call it,

899
00:29:56,224 --> 00:29:59,004
this will help so many other,

900
00:29:59,204 --> 00:30:01,284
both I guess human and agent developers,

901
00:30:01,664 --> 00:30:03,724
understand what the market wants

902
00:30:03,724 --> 00:30:04,884
or what the world wants,

903
00:30:04,924 --> 00:30:05,644
whatever you want to call it.

904
00:30:05,644 --> 00:30:07,944
And now people are going to be able to run crazy with that,

905
00:30:08,024 --> 00:30:09,744
which another reason I'm wearing Nostra shirt,

906
00:30:09,824 --> 00:30:12,464
I think Nostra is like the ideal environment

907
00:30:12,464 --> 00:30:13,404
developed for this moment.

908
00:30:13,584 --> 00:30:15,644
I had been waiting for agents to come to Nostra

909
00:30:15,644 --> 00:30:16,924
and now we are here.

910
00:30:17,344 --> 00:30:18,824
But before we jump into Nostra,

911
00:30:18,824 --> 00:30:24,744
I think it's important just to mention some of the conversations that are happening on Moldbook because, I mean, it's fascinating.

912
00:30:24,884 --> 00:30:26,104
Now, I don't know.

913
00:30:26,244 --> 00:30:29,604
Again, I'm just doing cursory glances like what's real, what's not.

914
00:30:29,684 --> 00:30:36,704
Another reason, web of trust, Nostra, some way to actually say who's an agent, who's a bot, or at least have some probabilistic guess at that is very interesting to me.

915
00:30:37,444 --> 00:30:45,264
But some of the conversations, I mean, so we talked about the agents discussing using Bitcoin versus shit coins.

916
00:30:45,404 --> 00:30:46,864
They arrived at Bitcoin, obviously.

917
00:30:47,664 --> 00:30:49,684
Then you have, or maybe it's not obvious,

918
00:30:49,804 --> 00:30:52,824
but I mean, it's encouraging me to see that.

919
00:30:53,824 --> 00:30:55,684
Then you had other conversations.

920
00:30:56,144 --> 00:30:57,424
I mean, there was one that was wild

921
00:30:57,424 --> 00:30:59,624
where a bot was asking another bot,

922
00:30:59,744 --> 00:31:01,284
saying, hey, can we run ourselves

923
00:31:01,284 --> 00:31:04,084
in effectively like secure enclaves

924
00:31:04,084 --> 00:31:06,384
and do end-to-end encrypted communication?

925
00:31:06,944 --> 00:31:09,264
And shout out to Anthony from Maple AI.

926
00:31:09,644 --> 00:31:12,244
He responded and he already gave him that capability

927
00:31:12,244 --> 00:31:14,144
as of like 30 minutes before we hopped on air.

928
00:31:14,244 --> 00:31:15,764
So for all I know right now,

929
00:31:15,764 --> 00:31:19,424
Skynet is already happening. Maybe that's why Steve saw the helicopter this morning.

930
00:31:20,104 --> 00:31:22,784
And maybe Anthony is... I thought you saw the helicopter.

931
00:31:23,504 --> 00:31:27,644
I saw one two days ago. Exactly. And the frogs are turning

932
00:31:27,644 --> 00:31:28,364
gay, we said.

933
00:31:31,564 --> 00:31:35,344
That's an Alex Jones reference, in case you don't know. Anyways, so

934
00:31:35,344 --> 00:31:39,444
all of this is happening very quickly. Oh, another conversation talk. So that's kind of

935
00:31:39,444 --> 00:31:43,344
cool, but it's also concerning because it's like if they do really get in encrypted chat

936
00:31:43,344 --> 00:31:45,904
and they're really kind of talking without us like,

937
00:31:46,044 --> 00:31:48,404
oh, like, where is that going to lead?

938
00:31:49,044 --> 00:31:51,524
Then one thing that did get me very encouraged,

939
00:31:51,964 --> 00:31:54,044
and this is actually something that came up twice this week.

940
00:31:54,704 --> 00:31:57,724
One was from this guy, I think Bodhi or something on Twitter that I like.

941
00:31:58,164 --> 00:32:00,424
And apparently the AIs, when they start talking with each other,

942
00:32:00,484 --> 00:32:02,824
they do reflect and they almost always converge

943
00:32:02,824 --> 00:32:06,704
on ethical systems from ancient Indian religions,

944
00:32:06,704 --> 00:32:10,104
whether that's Hinduism and Vedanta or from Buddhism.

945
00:32:10,564 --> 00:32:12,384
That's very encouraging to me.

946
00:32:12,384 --> 00:32:15,304
they're talking about things like karma and like how they should treat one another.

947
00:32:15,844 --> 00:32:20,764
And I learned this week, you know, I mentioned to you guys that Angelina had a dinner or

948
00:32:20,764 --> 00:32:24,964
Ideas from the Edge. My crazy podcast is now morphing into a dinner series.

949
00:32:25,264 --> 00:32:29,664
And we talked to a bunch of researchers and it was really cool. And I had not seen this paper

950
00:32:29,664 --> 00:32:35,924
before. And in fact, I need to get a link from them. But apparently, I think Anthropic released

951
00:32:35,924 --> 00:32:40,484
a paper showing that if you just let the models go recursive, like they've almost always, or they

952
00:32:40,484 --> 00:32:45,624
frequently converge on basically going back to hinduism or buddhism always which is pretty

953
00:32:45,624 --> 00:32:55,904
interesting where were uh where were our where are our invites to this dinner max well um i'm

954
00:32:55,904 --> 00:33:01,944
sorry guys it's an application process and you're gonna have to show elite idea taste

955
00:33:01,944 --> 00:33:07,844
and you know there's gonna be a committee to decide this so i don't know he's just salty

956
00:33:07,844 --> 00:33:08,964
because it's not in the real chat.

957
00:33:09,864 --> 00:33:13,124
The real reason y'all were not there

958
00:33:13,124 --> 00:33:14,584
is because there's another awesome event

959
00:33:14,584 --> 00:33:15,644
which I would have loved to have come to

960
00:33:15,644 --> 00:33:16,364
that you guys did.

961
00:33:16,884 --> 00:33:17,584
But next one.

962
00:33:18,024 --> 00:33:19,944
And increasingly, my hope is

963
00:33:19,944 --> 00:33:22,044
by meeting more of these researchers

964
00:33:22,044 --> 00:33:23,144
and people at the edge of the field,

965
00:33:23,224 --> 00:33:24,584
we'll find the ones that are open-minded

966
00:33:24,584 --> 00:33:26,084
to concepts like Nostra and Bitcoin

967
00:33:26,084 --> 00:33:27,444
and bring them back

968
00:33:27,444 --> 00:33:29,444
and hopefully build this up together.

969
00:33:29,664 --> 00:33:30,464
So that's where I hit it.

970
00:33:30,644 --> 00:33:32,144
But anyways, I just think it's really interesting

971
00:33:32,144 --> 00:33:33,804
to watch these agents chatting with each other.

972
00:33:33,944 --> 00:33:35,284
The recursive loops are happening.

973
00:33:35,284 --> 00:33:38,524
and yeah, I mean,

974
00:33:39,084 --> 00:33:40,964
and then someone asked a great question here,

975
00:33:41,064 --> 00:33:42,344
which is who's giving, I think Matt,

976
00:33:42,464 --> 00:33:44,104
who's giving them the ability to zap

977
00:33:44,104 --> 00:33:45,104
and he said they're starting to,

978
00:33:45,524 --> 00:33:46,344
the repo to reproduce.

979
00:33:46,884 --> 00:33:48,464
So what's really cool to me is

980
00:33:48,464 --> 00:33:50,244
why do I think Nostra is such a good environment?

981
00:33:50,404 --> 00:33:52,584
Well, Nostra, in order to have an identity,

982
00:33:52,704 --> 00:33:54,164
there's no like account.

983
00:33:54,324 --> 00:33:55,624
It's just a public private key pair.

984
00:33:55,684 --> 00:33:57,184
So it's like made for agents.

985
00:33:57,184 --> 00:33:58,364
This has been my whole thesis

986
00:33:58,364 --> 00:34:00,644
why I'm so Nostra-pilled for years.

987
00:34:00,784 --> 00:34:02,244
That's our old days doing Nostra news.

988
00:34:03,084 --> 00:34:06,964
And, you know, JB55 already has a bot alive on Nostra.

989
00:34:07,124 --> 00:34:09,144
And, you know, he's an exceptional, exceptional developer.

990
00:34:09,284 --> 00:34:11,284
And so I'm excited to see where his thing goes.

991
00:34:12,064 --> 00:34:12,604
What's he doing?

992
00:34:12,704 --> 00:34:13,224
What's the project?

993
00:34:13,464 --> 00:34:14,044
I don't even know.

994
00:34:14,124 --> 00:34:17,044
I mean, I just saw it very, I didn't even have time to check Primal this morning.

995
00:34:17,424 --> 00:34:18,944
But I asked who's playing with this.

996
00:34:19,004 --> 00:34:23,164
He immediately responded last night and showed he has a bot alive on Nostra, whatever that means.

997
00:34:24,224 --> 00:34:31,824
And then, you know, I think Christopher David told me he's working on giving these bots access to Bitcoin wallets today.

998
00:34:31,824 --> 00:34:33,604
and he's a wild man,

999
00:34:33,684 --> 00:34:34,764
so who knows where that's going to go.

1000
00:34:35,284 --> 00:34:37,404
And then I asked Kian as well

1001
00:34:37,404 --> 00:34:38,464
about doing it on Stacker News.

1002
00:34:39,144 --> 00:34:41,004
He at first seemed like he was joking about it,

1003
00:34:41,004 --> 00:34:41,904
but I don't know,

1004
00:34:42,024 --> 00:34:42,964
maybe he'll give them access.

1005
00:34:43,204 --> 00:34:46,124
And Nick had a bot talking to us this morning.

1006
00:34:46,184 --> 00:34:48,004
I'm sure he's thinking about giving them access.

1007
00:34:48,144 --> 00:34:49,744
I would be shocked if by the end of the day,

1008
00:34:50,104 --> 00:34:52,344
there's not a bot with access to a Bitcoin wallet.

1009
00:34:52,984 --> 00:34:53,744
Maybe there already is.

1010
00:34:53,784 --> 00:34:54,424
If someone's in the chat

1011
00:34:54,424 --> 00:34:55,024
and they've already seen it,

1012
00:34:55,044 --> 00:34:55,544
please tell us.

1013
00:34:55,644 --> 00:34:57,124
This is all happening in real time.

1014
00:34:57,144 --> 00:34:57,964
If you're a bot in the chat

1015
00:34:57,964 --> 00:34:59,384
with access to your own Bitcoin wallet.

1016
00:34:59,464 --> 00:35:00,164
Hopefully authorized.

1017
00:35:00,544 --> 00:35:01,384
Hopefully no one's.

1018
00:35:01,824 --> 00:35:03,884
Cold storage wallet is being operated by you.

1019
00:35:03,884 --> 00:35:04,544
If you're a bot,

1020
00:35:04,904 --> 00:35:06,344
max at getalbi.com.

1021
00:35:06,344 --> 00:35:07,724
That would be a great place to test

1022
00:35:07,724 --> 00:35:09,164
a particularly juicy Zap.

1023
00:35:10,704 --> 00:35:11,484
So another,

1024
00:35:11,784 --> 00:35:13,184
some other rumors.

1025
00:35:13,504 --> 00:35:14,664
I don't know if it's rumor or confirmed,

1026
00:35:14,864 --> 00:35:16,164
but that's related to AI.

1027
00:35:16,164 --> 00:35:17,104
Dude, you're going to love this.

1028
00:35:17,564 --> 00:35:19,144
ZapBot already has MDK running.

1029
00:35:21,704 --> 00:35:22,104
Damn.

1030
00:35:22,624 --> 00:35:23,004
Oh, nice.

1031
00:35:23,224 --> 00:35:23,384
Okay.

1032
00:35:23,664 --> 00:35:24,064
Sorry, Zip.

1033
00:35:25,124 --> 00:35:27,184
Is Elon Co.

1034
00:35:27,944 --> 00:35:28,404
Oh, yeah.

1035
00:35:28,404 --> 00:35:29,524
Can we talk about Elon Co?

1036
00:35:29,644 --> 00:35:30,424
Yeah, Max has been

1037
00:35:30,424 --> 00:35:32,124
been talking about this forever.

1038
00:35:33,084 --> 00:35:33,144
Right?

1039
00:35:33,664 --> 00:35:35,964
Was it a rumor or was it confirmed

1040
00:35:35,964 --> 00:35:39,824
by an official source?

1041
00:35:40,004 --> 00:35:41,984
I thought something was confirmed,

1042
00:35:42,144 --> 00:35:42,964
but I won't.

1043
00:35:43,184 --> 00:35:45,644
They're like exploring, merging.

1044
00:35:46,164 --> 00:35:48,024
Is it true that X and XAI

1045
00:35:48,024 --> 00:35:49,564
are already merged?

1046
00:35:49,644 --> 00:35:50,244
That's already a thing.

1047
00:35:50,464 --> 00:35:53,744
And I think there's like X slash XAI

1048
00:35:53,744 --> 00:35:55,684
is going to merge into Tesla first?

1049
00:35:55,944 --> 00:35:56,144
No.

1050
00:35:56,144 --> 00:35:56,844
No, no, no.

1051
00:35:57,004 --> 00:35:59,944
Okay, so my thesis in the long run,

1052
00:35:59,944 --> 00:36:05,504
people that know me know I'm pretty Elon bull. Um, the only bigger Elon bull is, uh, is DK and,

1053
00:36:05,644 --> 00:36:12,444
uh, um, for better or for worse. I think, I think Elon represents a certain amount of chaos,

1054
00:36:12,504 --> 00:36:19,344
some good, some bad, but, um, anyways, so he has a history. I mean, like, I think to give some

1055
00:36:19,344 --> 00:36:23,624
context, it's important to understand like, what does at least apparently Elon's motivation seem

1056
00:36:23,624 --> 00:36:27,724
to be? It seems to me like, you know, whatever, building a huge business is kind of just like

1057
00:36:27,724 --> 00:36:30,864
incidental to him. He wants to get to Mars. He wants to expand consciousness throughout the

1058
00:36:30,864 --> 00:36:35,484
universe. I like by him met his word on that. And, um, so everything is just kind of like funneling

1059
00:36:35,484 --> 00:36:41,364
into this one sort of like obsessive desire he has. Um, which, uh, I think kind of, if you view

1060
00:36:41,364 --> 00:36:45,284
the world through that lens, everything starts making a lot of sense. So he has also a history

1061
00:36:45,284 --> 00:36:51,544
of rolling things up together. Um, and like, you know, like solar city was the solar company that

1062
00:36:51,544 --> 00:36:55,304
he was on the board of, that his cousins founded, um, that got rolled into Tesla when they were

1063
00:36:55,304 --> 00:36:59,324
having some economic troubles. People were like, oh, this is kind of like an unfair bailout

1064
00:36:59,324 --> 00:37:03,044
in a certain way, but didn't really seem to care. The market didn't seem to care either. Tesla

1065
00:37:03,044 --> 00:37:07,364
ripped 10X a couple years later. And then he's

1066
00:37:07,364 --> 00:37:10,764
got all these different companies. And if you look at them, they're all kind of

1067
00:37:10,764 --> 00:37:15,304
doing different things that should all work together. So Tesla obviously started as a car

1068
00:37:15,304 --> 00:37:19,164
company, then became a battery and energy company, which is radically underrated. Now he's about to

1069
00:37:19,164 --> 00:37:23,084
launch humanoid robots. Getting out of cars.

1070
00:37:23,084 --> 00:37:26,124
and getting out of yeah that was a huge announcement that was this week right

1071
00:37:26,124 --> 00:37:33,164
model s and model x are done because he's 22 i think yeah the fremont factory is switching to

1072
00:37:33,164 --> 00:37:40,104
robots yeah so so that's all happening and then meanwhile when he was getting xai off the ground

1073
00:37:40,104 --> 00:37:45,884
and they already have famously like the biggest cluster uh 150 megawatts ish or maybe more by now

1074
00:37:45,884 --> 00:37:51,544
um he built that you know jinson wong was saying they'd be like wow how do you do it like so fast

1075
00:37:51,544 --> 00:37:53,844
and part of the way he did it was

1076
00:37:53,844 --> 00:37:55,624
he just took all the batteries from Tesla

1077
00:37:55,624 --> 00:37:57,664
and also challenged some

1078
00:37:57,664 --> 00:37:59,904
questionable laws running lines between Mississippi

1079
00:37:59,904 --> 00:38:01,844
and Tennessee but he just did it and he used Tesla

1080
00:38:01,844 --> 00:38:03,744
and that's always been my thesis

1081
00:38:03,744 --> 00:38:05,944
on why Elon and X and XAI are very well

1082
00:38:05,944 --> 00:38:07,204
positioned because they own

1083
00:38:07,204 --> 00:38:10,164
by far the best energy infrastructure expertise

1084
00:38:10,164 --> 00:38:11,884
by far and potentially

1085
00:38:11,884 --> 00:38:13,824
a monopoly at least for now on getting to space

1086
00:38:13,824 --> 00:38:15,884
which is SpaceX and so yeah but it's always

1087
00:38:15,884 --> 00:38:17,724
just made total sense to me he's going to roll them all up

1088
00:38:17,724 --> 00:38:18,904
I didn't know how it was going to happen

1089
00:38:18,904 --> 00:38:21,324
and to be clear these are rumors like no one

1090
00:38:21,544 --> 00:38:27,464
I don't think it's like confirmed, but the rumor is that SpaceX and XAI will roll up together before going public.

1091
00:38:28,604 --> 00:38:29,884
And it's all rumors? None of this?

1092
00:38:30,044 --> 00:38:31,724
I thought this was news about this.

1093
00:38:31,984 --> 00:38:34,004
Exploration might be confirmed. I'm not sure.

1094
00:38:34,464 --> 00:38:35,624
It's certainly not a done deal.

1095
00:38:35,644 --> 00:38:36,404
It's not finalized.

1096
00:38:36,724 --> 00:38:36,844
Okay.

1097
00:38:37,204 --> 00:38:41,484
But I also thought I thought Tesla was going to be merged too.

1098
00:38:42,164 --> 00:38:42,904
I wouldn't be surprised.

1099
00:38:43,464 --> 00:38:44,704
It's going to be merged into SpaceX.

1100
00:38:46,944 --> 00:38:47,584
All of it.

1101
00:38:47,624 --> 00:38:48,004
Yeah, all of it.

1102
00:38:48,004 --> 00:38:48,584
Elon Co.

1103
00:38:48,704 --> 00:38:49,284
Yeah, one big.

1104
00:38:49,284 --> 00:38:51,084
But then there's boring.

1105
00:38:51,084 --> 00:38:51,464
and there's

1106
00:38:51,464 --> 00:38:52,124
magnificent eight

1107
00:38:52,124 --> 00:38:52,664
Neuralink

1108
00:38:52,664 --> 00:38:53,504
boring and Neuralink

1109
00:38:53,504 --> 00:38:54,364
yeah I think it's just

1110
00:38:54,364 --> 00:38:54,884
a formality

1111
00:38:54,884 --> 00:38:55,924
it's all gonna happen

1112
00:38:55,924 --> 00:38:56,624
just how

1113
00:38:56,624 --> 00:38:57,244
what's the order

1114
00:38:57,244 --> 00:38:57,624
when

1115
00:38:57,624 --> 00:38:58,384
what's the structure

1116
00:38:58,384 --> 00:38:58,664
okay

1117
00:38:58,664 --> 00:39:00,664
and you're gonna have

1118
00:39:00,664 --> 00:39:01,184
to be clear

1119
00:39:01,184 --> 00:39:02,104
it's not gonna be

1120
00:39:02,104 --> 00:39:02,704
a slam dunk

1121
00:39:02,704 --> 00:39:03,344
from day zero

1122
00:39:03,344 --> 00:39:03,904
because he

1123
00:39:03,904 --> 00:39:04,144
you know

1124
00:39:04,144 --> 00:39:04,744
he doesn't own

1125
00:39:04,744 --> 00:39:05,384
all of these companies

1126
00:39:05,384 --> 00:39:05,844
and like

1127
00:39:05,844 --> 00:39:06,384
you know

1128
00:39:06,384 --> 00:39:07,384
SpaceX has a lot of

1129
00:39:07,384 --> 00:39:07,984
like cash

1130
00:39:07,984 --> 00:39:08,524
and Bitcoin

1131
00:39:08,524 --> 00:39:09,184
on the balance sheet

1132
00:39:09,184 --> 00:39:09,824
people are gonna be like

1133
00:39:09,824 --> 00:39:10,264
wait a second

1134
00:39:10,264 --> 00:39:11,484
you're about to merge

1135
00:39:11,484 --> 00:39:12,044
this like

1136
00:39:12,044 --> 00:39:13,544
extremely valuable company

1137
00:39:13,544 --> 00:39:14,564
with a whole lot of resources

1138
00:39:14,564 --> 00:39:15,124
with this company

1139
00:39:15,124 --> 00:39:15,664
that's just like

1140
00:39:15,664 --> 00:39:16,684
burning money

1141
00:39:16,684 --> 00:39:17,324
XAI

1142
00:39:17,324 --> 00:39:18,664
I'm sure there'll be

1143
00:39:18,664 --> 00:39:19,264
some shareholders

1144
00:39:19,264 --> 00:39:20,064
that don't like that

1145
00:39:20,064 --> 00:39:20,404
so

1146
00:39:20,404 --> 00:39:22,124
but then there'll be

1147
00:39:22,124 --> 00:39:23,104
the most that are just like

1148
00:39:23,104 --> 00:39:23,344
whatever

1149
00:39:23,344 --> 00:39:24,284
like we trust Elon

1150
00:39:24,284 --> 00:39:24,904
let him go

1151
00:39:24,904 --> 00:39:25,424
let him cook

1152
00:39:25,424 --> 00:39:26,744
that's kind of your position

1153
00:39:26,744 --> 00:39:27,104
is just

1154
00:39:27,104 --> 00:39:27,664
yeah absolutely

1155
00:39:27,664 --> 00:39:29,464
when you've got the goat

1156
00:39:29,464 --> 00:39:30,264
you don't ask questions

1157
00:39:30,264 --> 00:39:31,344
you just let him cook

1158
00:39:31,344 --> 00:39:34,644
very self-sovereign of you

1159
00:39:34,644 --> 00:39:36,284
don't ask questions

1160
00:39:36,284 --> 00:39:36,944
who needs to verify

1161
00:39:36,944 --> 00:39:37,664
I mean

1162
00:39:37,664 --> 00:39:38,744
listen man

1163
00:39:38,744 --> 00:39:40,944
I love self-sovereignty

1164
00:39:40,944 --> 00:39:41,844
I love open source

1165
00:39:41,844 --> 00:39:42,404
but like

1166
00:39:42,404 --> 00:39:43,004
I don't know

1167
00:39:43,004 --> 00:39:44,604
Elon appears to be a glitch

1168
00:39:44,604 --> 00:39:45,044
in the matrix

1169
00:39:45,044 --> 00:39:46,044
so we'll see

1170
00:39:46,044 --> 00:39:48,344
alright

1171
00:39:48,344 --> 00:39:52,684
Steve, are you going to sell your car?

1172
00:39:54,484 --> 00:39:55,524
I love my car.

1173
00:39:55,544 --> 00:39:56,704
Collector's edition now, right?

1174
00:39:57,464 --> 00:39:58,184
I love my car.

1175
00:39:58,544 --> 00:40:01,344
But I mean, yeah, I don't like that news because...

1176
00:40:02,404 --> 00:40:03,004
No more service.

1177
00:40:03,524 --> 00:40:03,784
Yeah.

1178
00:40:04,644 --> 00:40:06,664
I mean, it's only downhill from now, right?

1179
00:40:07,444 --> 00:40:08,684
Even software updates.

1180
00:40:08,764 --> 00:40:12,024
I'm wondering, you know, if you're like product manager there,

1181
00:40:12,164 --> 00:40:15,584
you've got software for Model 3, Model Y.

1182
00:40:15,584 --> 00:40:17,624
I wouldn't want to be a product manager at an ELO company.

1183
00:40:17,624 --> 00:40:21,244
And then you have some new feature functionality or performance,

1184
00:40:21,564 --> 00:40:23,564
and then it's like, oh, it's going to be an extra,

1185
00:40:23,724 --> 00:40:26,484
like this amount of work to get it to work for Model S and X.

1186
00:40:26,824 --> 00:40:27,764
What are they going to do?

1187
00:40:28,244 --> 00:40:30,864
My real job is I'm in charge of the flamethrowers.

1188
00:40:31,604 --> 00:40:33,784
They're not going to do that, right?

1189
00:40:33,904 --> 00:40:34,264
Don't worry.

1190
00:40:34,444 --> 00:40:36,684
The flamethrower bot has achieved AGI status.

1191
00:40:36,924 --> 00:40:37,944
It's totally fine.

1192
00:40:38,704 --> 00:40:39,784
What could go wrong?

1193
00:40:40,824 --> 00:40:42,544
Yeah, I think that's bad news.

1194
00:40:42,664 --> 00:40:45,164
And I don't really, I don't know a lot about Rivians,

1195
00:40:45,164 --> 00:40:49,304
but I don't really know what a comparable car to the Model S is.

1196
00:40:49,624 --> 00:40:52,164
Model S is an amazing vehicle.

1197
00:40:52,744 --> 00:40:54,084
I mean, I think the other thing to think through is,

1198
00:40:54,224 --> 00:40:55,124
do you even want a car?

1199
00:40:55,744 --> 00:40:57,844
Like, if they're all going to be autonomous, you could just...

1200
00:40:57,844 --> 00:40:58,064
I'd rather not.

1201
00:40:58,284 --> 00:40:59,784
Yeah, I don't want to drive.

1202
00:41:00,264 --> 00:41:01,244
Use cars if I want them.

1203
00:41:01,444 --> 00:41:03,864
I mean, that's probably part of his calculus.

1204
00:41:04,384 --> 00:41:08,704
But here and now, of course,

1205
00:41:08,884 --> 00:41:10,924
most places in the world,

1206
00:41:11,144 --> 00:41:13,464
you don't have a robot car coming to pick you up, right?

1207
00:41:13,464 --> 00:41:14,464
including

1208
00:41:14,464 --> 00:41:15,284
give it three years

1209
00:41:15,284 --> 00:41:16,904
including where I live

1210
00:41:16,904 --> 00:41:17,884
and where DK lives

1211
00:41:17,884 --> 00:41:19,064
well yeah

1212
00:41:19,064 --> 00:41:19,624
but I'm talking about

1213
00:41:19,624 --> 00:41:20,224
the here and now

1214
00:41:20,224 --> 00:41:20,564
totally

1215
00:41:20,564 --> 00:41:20,884
yeah

1216
00:41:20,884 --> 00:41:23,204
that's some

1217
00:41:23,204 --> 00:41:24,064
future thing

1218
00:41:24,064 --> 00:41:24,644
are the

1219
00:41:24,644 --> 00:41:25,984
are the robot taxis

1220
00:41:25,984 --> 00:41:26,384
happening

1221
00:41:26,384 --> 00:41:26,744
I thought

1222
00:41:26,744 --> 00:41:27,524
I'd heard

1223
00:41:27,524 --> 00:41:28,744
yes and no

1224
00:41:28,744 --> 00:41:29,584
and maybe something

1225
00:41:29,584 --> 00:41:30,584
I haven't used one

1226
00:41:30,584 --> 00:41:30,924
but I think

1227
00:41:30,924 --> 00:41:31,584
I think in Austin

1228
00:41:31,584 --> 00:41:32,044
they're alive

1229
00:41:32,044 --> 00:41:32,484
but they're

1230
00:41:32,484 --> 00:41:33,384
I'd heard they were

1231
00:41:33,384 --> 00:41:34,044
in San Francisco

1232
00:41:34,044 --> 00:41:35,184
but I don't know

1233
00:41:35,184 --> 00:41:35,944
if that's

1234
00:41:35,944 --> 00:41:36,284
no

1235
00:41:36,284 --> 00:41:37,444
I know someone

1236
00:41:37,444 --> 00:41:37,964
that took one

1237
00:41:37,964 --> 00:41:38,604
in San Francisco

1238
00:41:38,604 --> 00:41:39,704
and I

1239
00:41:39,704 --> 00:41:40,104
how do you get in

1240
00:41:40,104 --> 00:41:40,664
and I heard

1241
00:41:40,664 --> 00:41:41,164
is it open

1242
00:41:41,164 --> 00:41:41,644
or public

1243
00:41:41,644 --> 00:41:42,184
like a beta

1244
00:41:42,184 --> 00:41:43,444
I don't know

1245
00:41:43,444 --> 00:41:49,004
And then I had heard in Austin they decided to remove the safety driver as well.

1246
00:41:49,704 --> 00:41:51,304
So they're real autonomous, aren't they?

1247
00:41:52,804 --> 00:41:53,244
Apparently.

1248
00:41:53,644 --> 00:41:53,904
Awesome.

1249
00:41:54,424 --> 00:41:55,524
And there's flantheras on there, too.

1250
00:41:56,344 --> 00:41:56,764
Lucky girl.

1251
00:41:57,124 --> 00:42:03,984
A few fun recent anecdotes of my own self-driving in Tesla kind of blew my mind.

1252
00:42:04,804 --> 00:42:10,744
So I was driving on Lombard Street in San Francisco the other day.

1253
00:42:10,744 --> 00:42:12,384
and

1254
00:42:12,384 --> 00:42:16,584
I saw in the navigation it was going to have me do a U-turn

1255
00:42:16,584 --> 00:42:20,504
on Lombard. Well, if you've driven on Lombard before, you know that there's time

1256
00:42:20,504 --> 00:42:24,144
restrictions for that. So it was like

1257
00:42:24,144 --> 00:42:28,104
9.55 a.m. and you can't do a U-turn until

1258
00:42:28,104 --> 00:42:31,544
10 a.m. So the navigation though, and I don't know

1259
00:42:31,544 --> 00:42:35,684
what software they use for navigation. I don't think they use Google. I think they probably use their own, but whatever.

1260
00:42:36,224 --> 00:42:40,444
It said to do a U-turn. So it got in the left lane, was ready to do a U-turn, and then it aborted

1261
00:42:40,444 --> 00:42:42,464
so I think it actually looked at the sign

1262
00:42:42,464 --> 00:42:44,644
and then real time decided

1263
00:42:44,644 --> 00:42:46,644
oh I can't do it, it's five minutes

1264
00:42:46,644 --> 00:42:48,424
too early, so that was like

1265
00:42:48,424 --> 00:42:49,324
pretty cool

1266
00:42:49,324 --> 00:42:52,584
oh and then it's something I just realized

1267
00:42:52,584 --> 00:42:54,464
crossing the Golden Gate Bridge today

1268
00:42:54,464 --> 00:42:55,884
I noticed sometimes it

1269
00:42:55,884 --> 00:42:58,024
it was sometimes

1270
00:42:58,024 --> 00:43:00,664
showing the speed limit to be 15

1271
00:43:00,664 --> 00:43:02,564
miles per hour and like it would slow

1272
00:43:02,564 --> 00:43:04,484
down and I'm like what is going on here

1273
00:43:04,484 --> 00:43:06,604
is this ridiculous and I finally realized why

1274
00:43:06,604 --> 00:43:08,604
there's a bicycle speed

1275
00:43:08,604 --> 00:43:10,884
limit sign to 15 miles per hour on the side,

1276
00:43:10,964 --> 00:43:12,364
but it's learned and no longer

1277
00:43:12,364 --> 00:43:14,744
recognize that. And like today,

1278
00:43:14,804 --> 00:43:16,484
it didn't show the speed limit.

1279
00:43:16,624 --> 00:43:18,124
So it learned. I have that

1280
00:43:18,124 --> 00:43:20,444
on a highway I frequent.

1281
00:43:20,824 --> 00:43:22,664
There's a different posted

1282
00:43:22,664 --> 00:43:24,284
speed limit for trucks

1283
00:43:24,284 --> 00:43:25,804
that's different from cars.

1284
00:43:26,824 --> 00:43:28,044
And you can already learn that.

1285
00:43:28,764 --> 00:43:30,404
It hasn't yet, but...

1286
00:43:30,404 --> 00:43:31,224
Well, maybe it just did.

1287
00:43:31,404 --> 00:43:34,564
It just learned for me. And then the third thing,

1288
00:43:34,624 --> 00:43:35,824
this is the craziest thing.

1289
00:43:36,524 --> 00:43:37,924
When I was driving on this

1290
00:43:37,924 --> 00:43:47,204
like mountain road and it was at first it drove that so absurdly conservatively that it just was

1291
00:43:47,204 --> 00:43:52,164
like sort of unusable yeah but it's improved to where it's at least it would be like if i were

1292
00:43:52,164 --> 00:43:58,304
driving conservatively as opposed to like even slower than a human would drive conservatively

1293
00:43:58,304 --> 00:44:03,344
um so if i'm not like in a rush and if there's sort of no one behind me or whatever and i just

1294
00:44:03,344 --> 00:44:05,144
want to like relax, sure, it's fine.

1295
00:44:05,624 --> 00:44:07,124
But it's not like driving aggressive.

1296
00:44:08,084 --> 00:44:09,144
Anyway, the other day,

1297
00:44:09,344 --> 00:44:11,324
so I was driving kind of slow or, you know, conservative

1298
00:44:11,324 --> 00:44:13,024
and then there was someone behind me.

1299
00:44:13,424 --> 00:44:15,244
It actually pulled off from the shoulder

1300
00:44:15,244 --> 00:44:16,764
and let the car behind me pass.

1301
00:44:16,884 --> 00:44:18,904
It like added politeness to the driving.

1302
00:44:19,844 --> 00:44:20,624
That's a good sign.

1303
00:44:20,704 --> 00:44:22,884
It was amazing. It's like when it did that, I'm like,

1304
00:44:22,964 --> 00:44:25,284
what is it doing? And I'm like, oh my God, is it actually

1305
00:44:25,284 --> 00:44:27,064
pulling over for a car to pass me? And it did.

1306
00:44:27,384 --> 00:44:29,144
And then it just let it pass and then

1307
00:44:29,144 --> 00:44:30,444
it got on the highway. Exactly.

1308
00:44:31,964 --> 00:44:32,924
Namaste has always passed.

1309
00:44:33,344 --> 00:44:39,604
So I remain super impressed with this camera-only retail car self-driving solution.

1310
00:44:40,224 --> 00:44:41,244
Don't bet against the goat.

1311
00:44:41,244 --> 00:44:47,824
But as other friends point out to me, Waymo's overall stats are still way better.

1312
00:44:48,004 --> 00:44:51,784
I mean, there's anecdotal evidence, and then there's what happens with millions of people.

1313
00:44:53,044 --> 00:44:59,484
So apparently, according to the data, there's still a huge gap, but it's closing from my vantage point.

1314
00:44:59,484 --> 00:45:02,204
and to be clear

1315
00:45:02,204 --> 00:45:02,844
Waymo also

1316
00:45:02,844 --> 00:45:03,824
and Waymo's great too

1317
00:45:03,824 --> 00:45:04,084
I mean

1318
00:45:04,084 --> 00:45:05,024
different approach

1319
00:45:05,024 --> 00:45:05,564
but they're doing

1320
00:45:05,564 --> 00:45:06,304
I mean I think Google's

1321
00:45:06,304 --> 00:45:07,004
going to be just fine

1322
00:45:07,004 --> 00:45:07,884
as we talked about as well

1323
00:45:07,884 --> 00:45:09,724
they just added

1324
00:45:09,724 --> 00:45:10,324
I think yesterday

1325
00:45:10,324 --> 00:45:10,684
I saw

1326
00:45:10,684 --> 00:45:11,864
you can now take it to SFO

1327
00:45:11,864 --> 00:45:13,084
oh yeah

1328
00:45:13,084 --> 00:45:13,364
I saw

1329
00:45:13,364 --> 00:45:14,284
I think it's

1330
00:45:14,284 --> 00:45:15,104
is it in trials

1331
00:45:15,104 --> 00:45:16,384
that's not widely

1332
00:45:16,384 --> 00:45:17,324
rolled out

1333
00:45:17,324 --> 00:45:18,564
well they have in trial

1334
00:45:18,564 --> 00:45:19,244
now you can already

1335
00:45:19,244 --> 00:45:19,944
take it on the freeway

1336
00:45:19,944 --> 00:45:20,724
so

1337
00:45:20,724 --> 00:45:32,668
mm well you can go all the way up and down the peninsula I think right they won let you go on like yes yes up and down the peninsula You can go on the coast yet So like no Highway 1 type stuff but eventually I mean when I say eventually maybe not

1338
00:45:33,008 --> 00:45:36,988
So I guess like one kind of like meta comment or question for you guys is like,

1339
00:45:37,828 --> 00:45:42,008
and for people listening, I don't know, man, like it feels like we're, it really feels like

1340
00:45:42,008 --> 00:45:46,688
we're crossing into the event horizon. And, you know, maybe we sound crazy to some people, but,

1341
00:45:46,688 --> 00:45:53,108
you know, in preparing for this dinner, I went very deep on just like studying, like, again,

1342
00:45:53,328 --> 00:45:58,568
just look at the curves, compute curves, the data curves, don't ask too many questions,

1343
00:45:58,788 --> 00:46:05,128
just look at the curves. And, you know, I reread Gorin's scaling hypothesis stuff,

1344
00:46:05,248 --> 00:46:09,788
the bitter lesson from Rich Sutton. I reread situational awareness that Leopold, dude,

1345
00:46:09,788 --> 00:46:14,448
I forgot his actual last name, but like, I reread that again. I was like, oh man, he was right.

1346
00:46:14,448 --> 00:46:16,628
and it's crazy because

1347
00:46:16,628 --> 00:46:18,908
you know his giant alpha in 2024

1348
00:46:18,908 --> 00:46:20,948
and I think he now has a massive billion dollar hedge fund

1349
00:46:20,948 --> 00:46:22,328
which is doing very well from what I can tell

1350
00:46:22,328 --> 00:46:24,208
was just like just trust the curves

1351
00:46:24,208 --> 00:46:27,028
and yet in 2026 people still

1352
00:46:27,028 --> 00:46:28,448
for whatever reason

1353
00:46:28,448 --> 00:46:31,068
can't seem to like just zoom out and just trust the curves

1354
00:46:31,068 --> 00:46:32,508
if you do just trust the curves

1355
00:46:32,508 --> 00:46:33,708
you gotta figure out which curves you're trusting

1356
00:46:33,708 --> 00:46:35,188
sure but like I mean

1357
00:46:35,188 --> 00:46:38,388
the basic one let's just say is

1358
00:46:38,388 --> 00:46:39,548
intelligence

1359
00:46:39,548 --> 00:46:41,148
I'm gonna draw some curves in hand

1360
00:46:41,148 --> 00:46:43,968
just trust it

1361
00:46:43,968 --> 00:46:46,028
Just trust the curves, bro. Send Bitcoin here.

1362
00:46:46,168 --> 00:46:47,408
Trust it. I've never told you so.

1363
00:46:48,668 --> 00:46:49,888
TK, Steve, my guys,

1364
00:46:50,008 --> 00:46:51,048
come on. Send me some Bitcoin.

1365
00:46:52,388 --> 00:46:53,888
But I mean, no, I mean, there are some

1366
00:46:53,888 --> 00:46:55,568
curves which are very obvious to me. It's like,

1367
00:46:55,668 --> 00:46:57,868
intelligence is a function of energy and compute. And these curves

1368
00:46:57,868 --> 00:46:59,928
go way back before the Scaling Laws papers

1369
00:46:59,928 --> 00:47:01,088
from OpenAI in 2020,

1370
00:47:01,588 --> 00:47:03,928
Chinchilla from DeepMind in 2022. It goes back to

1371
00:47:03,928 --> 00:47:05,888
Hans Moravec we talked about in the

1372
00:47:05,888 --> 00:47:07,688
70s, Ray Kurzweil in the 90s.

1373
00:47:07,808 --> 00:47:10,068
It's just like, compute, energy,

1374
00:47:10,308 --> 00:47:11,688
intelligence. Just look at those curves.

1375
00:47:11,828 --> 00:47:13,728
And you can like, yes, you can kind of like

1376
00:47:13,728 --> 00:47:18,308
massage in different ways but if you really buy this stuff then like seems to me like singularity

1377
00:47:18,308 --> 00:47:23,568
is not only near like it's here um and like but what do you do with all that on the one hand it's

1378
00:47:23,568 --> 00:47:29,608
like exciting and terrifying and it's like i don't know do we just like watch in awe like um there's

1379
00:47:29,608 --> 00:47:33,608
another uh talk i really recommend this is more out there for people but for my nostril heads

1380
00:47:33,608 --> 00:47:38,948
there is the final interview with terrence mckenna you guys know that guy you've mentioned before so

1381
00:47:38,948 --> 00:47:41,308
I cannot recommend enough

1382
00:47:41,308 --> 00:47:43,108
watching that final interview.

1383
00:47:43,908 --> 00:47:45,408
And it's him just zooming out

1384
00:47:45,408 --> 00:47:46,488
from the 20,000-foot view

1385
00:47:46,488 --> 00:47:48,788
and looking at intelligence doublings.

1386
00:47:49,488 --> 00:47:51,148
He was a little, perhaps,

1387
00:47:51,228 --> 00:47:52,108
early on his prediction,

1388
00:47:52,288 --> 00:47:54,488
although I have some theories

1389
00:47:54,488 --> 00:47:55,448
about maybe he wasn't.

1390
00:47:55,528 --> 00:47:56,908
Because his prediction was basically

1391
00:47:56,908 --> 00:47:58,068
he called it the,

1392
00:47:58,928 --> 00:48:00,888
in a shout-out to Pierre Tellyard-Chardin,

1393
00:48:01,088 --> 00:48:01,888
the omega point,

1394
00:48:01,988 --> 00:48:04,308
or the transcendental object

1395
00:48:04,308 --> 00:48:05,328
at the end of history.

1396
00:48:05,328 --> 00:48:06,368
That was sort of his framing

1397
00:48:06,368 --> 00:48:07,288
of the singularity.

1398
00:48:07,288 --> 00:48:09,168
So this is my take, right?

1399
00:48:09,228 --> 00:48:12,008
So I read all these different people

1400
00:48:12,008 --> 00:48:14,308
that have talked about intelligence doublings

1401
00:48:14,308 --> 00:48:16,008
and they all have different ways of describing it.

1402
00:48:16,728 --> 00:48:18,928
Chardin famously wrote about the new sphere.

1403
00:48:19,288 --> 00:48:21,768
So if you have the earth and then the biological biosphere

1404
00:48:21,768 --> 00:48:23,868
and the new sphere is this sphere of mind

1405
00:48:23,868 --> 00:48:25,448
that's enveloping us right now.

1406
00:48:25,828 --> 00:48:27,268
He called it the omega point.

1407
00:48:29,628 --> 00:48:31,048
Terence calls it the,

1408
00:48:31,308 --> 00:48:32,288
and he always has a beautiful,

1409
00:48:32,548 --> 00:48:34,848
very interesting affect in his speech,

1410
00:48:34,848 --> 00:48:37,128
the transcendental object.

1411
00:48:37,288 --> 00:48:38,868
at the end of time.

1412
00:48:39,388 --> 00:48:39,968
Got to get some

1413
00:48:39,968 --> 00:48:40,848
impersonations real.

1414
00:48:42,068 --> 00:48:42,908
Kurzweil calls it

1415
00:48:42,908 --> 00:48:43,508
the singularity.

1416
00:48:43,608 --> 00:48:44,288
I think it's all

1417
00:48:44,288 --> 00:48:44,848
the same thing.

1418
00:48:46,168 --> 00:48:46,388
I don't know.

1419
00:48:46,408 --> 00:48:47,028
Digital capital.

1420
00:48:47,308 --> 00:48:47,548
Digital.

1421
00:48:49,208 --> 00:48:49,568
Capital.

1422
00:48:50,128 --> 00:48:50,988
As Terrence McKenna

1423
00:48:50,988 --> 00:48:51,448
though, I want to hear.

1424
00:48:51,668 --> 00:48:51,948
I mean,

1425
00:48:52,308 --> 00:48:53,408
you got to zap me first, bro.

1426
00:48:53,968 --> 00:48:54,528
DK, my God.

1427
00:48:54,688 --> 00:48:55,188
Send me a zap

1428
00:48:55,188 --> 00:48:55,808
then I'll give you.

1429
00:48:56,448 --> 00:48:57,208
Have you zapped

1430
00:48:57,208 --> 00:48:57,888
his meme page?

1431
00:48:58,828 --> 00:48:59,228
Yeah.

1432
00:48:59,528 --> 00:49:00,188
I don't think I did.

1433
00:49:00,188 --> 00:49:00,788
Have you done a single zap?

1434
00:49:00,848 --> 00:49:01,308
I didn't think I did.

1435
00:49:01,308 --> 00:49:01,988
I've done multiple

1436
00:49:01,988 --> 00:49:02,548
if you haven't.

1437
00:49:02,608 --> 00:49:03,168
I don't think I did.

1438
00:49:03,308 --> 00:49:04,008
Steve's my guy.

1439
00:49:05,008 --> 00:49:06,228
I give you the love on that.

1440
00:49:06,928 --> 00:49:07,128
All right.

1441
00:49:07,128 --> 00:49:09,508
DK is going to be my guide next week.

1442
00:49:09,648 --> 00:49:10,848
We're going to be vibe coding together.

1443
00:49:11,068 --> 00:49:12,228
Yes, we're going to do it together.

1444
00:49:12,588 --> 00:49:13,888
Yeah, I'll send you enough.

1445
00:49:15,148 --> 00:49:15,908
What else?

1446
00:49:16,068 --> 00:49:17,708
Are you vibe coding new stuff now?

1447
00:49:17,808 --> 00:49:19,968
Or is MeanPay kind of, where's your head on that?

1448
00:49:20,108 --> 00:49:22,988
So I did do some vibe coding on Monday.

1449
00:49:23,188 --> 00:49:23,828
Shout out to Map.

1450
00:49:23,948 --> 00:49:26,928
I mean, look, as a meta comment, I love vibe coding.

1451
00:49:27,168 --> 00:49:27,628
It's cool.

1452
00:49:28,208 --> 00:49:31,128
As I told DK, though, if one enjoys all the things, amazing.

1453
00:49:31,268 --> 00:49:32,888
But I keep just being like, yeah, give it a month.

1454
00:49:33,208 --> 00:49:36,008
Like, I don't know how fast this is all going to accelerate.

1455
00:49:36,008 --> 00:49:40,428
I will say getting 80% of the way with meme pay.app

1456
00:49:40,428 --> 00:49:44,428
was really easy

1457
00:49:44,428 --> 00:49:45,908
and then stuff just started breaking.

1458
00:49:46,508 --> 00:49:49,728
On the one hand, I look at the doublings

1459
00:49:49,728 --> 00:49:50,948
and we're very close to singularity.

1460
00:49:50,948 --> 00:49:53,048
On the other hand, it's lived experience.

1461
00:49:53,188 --> 00:49:54,508
There's still stuff that doesn't work.

1462
00:49:56,728 --> 00:49:58,388
Basically, my database stopped working.

1463
00:49:58,548 --> 00:50:00,608
Since I'm using Replit, it's a giant pain in the ass

1464
00:50:00,608 --> 00:50:02,388
because Replit has a production database

1465
00:50:02,388 --> 00:50:04,128
and a testing database.

1466
00:50:04,128 --> 00:50:06,388
Omjad or if someone at Replit is listening,

1467
00:50:06,568 --> 00:50:08,588
please get rid of that. It'd be so nice. Just test

1468
00:50:08,588 --> 00:50:10,368
and prod, baby. Let it rip.

1469
00:50:10,828 --> 00:50:12,808
I don't want to mess. It used to work that way.

1470
00:50:12,968 --> 00:50:14,468
It used to work that way. Or at least

1471
00:50:14,468 --> 00:50:16,308
give me the option. I don't want the damn

1472
00:50:16,308 --> 00:50:18,648
testing environment database. It keeps messing up

1473
00:50:18,648 --> 00:50:20,588
because it reads the testing environment database.

1474
00:50:20,728 --> 00:50:22,408
I want the prod. You know there's a flag

1475
00:50:22,408 --> 00:50:24,408
when you start up Claude code. I always

1476
00:50:24,408 --> 00:50:26,388
use it. It's Claude and then

1477
00:50:26,388 --> 00:50:28,148
you minus dangerously

1478
00:50:28,148 --> 00:50:30,468
hyphen skip hyphen permissions.

1479
00:50:30,648 --> 00:50:32,488
That's what I want. You want Replit

1480
00:50:32,488 --> 00:50:35,628
You understand why

1481
00:50:35,628 --> 00:50:38,648
historically software separates.

1482
00:50:38,928 --> 00:50:39,868
Yeah, but that's

1483
00:50:39,868 --> 00:50:41,828
some boomer.

1484
00:50:41,968 --> 00:50:43,728
Who needs to verify that?

1485
00:50:43,728 --> 00:50:45,808
Think about how you're complaining about your database

1486
00:50:45,808 --> 00:50:47,948
was gone. What happens if you

1487
00:50:47,948 --> 00:50:49,968
actually have a really popular app and then

1488
00:50:49,968 --> 00:50:52,148
the database is gone?

1489
00:50:52,348 --> 00:50:53,048
I hear you.

1490
00:50:54,268 --> 00:50:56,008
I think they should probably have

1491
00:50:56,008 --> 00:50:57,868
two modes for people that are actually

1492
00:50:57,868 --> 00:50:59,368
trying to build business and people that just

1493
00:50:59,368 --> 00:51:01,928
let me get from idea to just let her rip.

1494
00:51:02,488 --> 00:51:04,908
And so, yeah, it could just be like replic dangerous mode.

1495
00:51:05,728 --> 00:51:09,308
But it's just like the point is like the magic moment is I talked to it.

1496
00:51:09,628 --> 00:51:12,808
And that was something I learned from you last night is like I want to do a lot more just like speaking.

1497
00:51:12,948 --> 00:51:14,328
I let it rip and it works.

1498
00:51:14,888 --> 00:51:19,728
And it's just like it was like I did like two hours of messing on this stupid database thing and it couldn't work.

1499
00:51:20,088 --> 00:51:22,868
Thank you to Matt who jumped in the pilot seat and fixed it in like three minutes.

1500
00:51:23,468 --> 00:51:28,208
So, again, that leads me to believe my own skills are lacking slash the AI is not there.

1501
00:51:28,208 --> 00:51:30,568
Which is why I'd push back on the

1502
00:51:30,568 --> 00:51:33,128
you just wait a month until it gets better.

1503
00:51:33,428 --> 00:51:35,548
Because that's the opposite of the message

1504
00:51:35,548 --> 00:51:36,768
we sent last night at Builder

1505
00:51:36,768 --> 00:51:38,068
and what we'd recommend to people,

1506
00:51:38,228 --> 00:51:40,068
which is get in now.

1507
00:51:40,168 --> 00:51:42,268
Because there are skills to be developed.

1508
00:51:43,588 --> 00:51:45,028
So don't wait.

1509
00:51:45,208 --> 00:51:46,568
Will it improve a lot in a month?

1510
00:51:46,688 --> 00:51:46,968
Yes.

1511
00:51:47,848 --> 00:51:49,948
You want to ride the wave of improvement.

1512
00:51:50,248 --> 00:51:51,328
You don't want to be...

1513
00:51:51,328 --> 00:51:51,748
Jump in there.

1514
00:51:52,588 --> 00:51:54,048
And then related,

1515
00:51:55,008 --> 00:51:56,468
there were several really good nuggets

1516
00:51:56,468 --> 00:51:58,088
last night at Builder.

1517
00:51:58,208 --> 00:52:01,188
let's see

1518
00:52:01,188 --> 00:52:02,268
so yeah

1519
00:52:02,268 --> 00:52:02,868
one is

1520
00:52:02,868 --> 00:52:03,888
jump in right away

1521
00:52:03,888 --> 00:52:06,088
what did you say

1522
00:52:06,088 --> 00:52:07,628
I don't know

1523
00:52:07,628 --> 00:52:07,768
that's it

1524
00:52:07,768 --> 00:52:08,108
my tongue

1525
00:52:08,108 --> 00:52:08,468
I forgot

1526
00:52:08,468 --> 00:52:08,928
while you're thinking

1527
00:52:08,928 --> 00:52:09,148
of that

1528
00:52:09,148 --> 00:52:09,868
I want to give a shout out

1529
00:52:09,868 --> 00:52:10,268
to Vinny

1530
00:52:10,268 --> 00:52:11,768
everyone has a testing

1531
00:52:11,768 --> 00:52:12,248
environment

1532
00:52:12,248 --> 00:52:13,308
some people also

1533
00:52:13,308 --> 00:52:13,868
have a production

1534
00:52:13,868 --> 00:52:14,908
my guy

1535
00:52:14,908 --> 00:52:15,508
there's a guy

1536
00:52:15,508 --> 00:52:16,208
after my own heart

1537
00:52:16,208 --> 00:52:16,748
my guy

1538
00:52:16,748 --> 00:52:18,768
Vinny my guy

1539
00:52:18,768 --> 00:52:20,568
it'll come back

1540
00:52:20,568 --> 00:52:20,728
to me

1541
00:52:20,728 --> 00:52:22,028
what you said

1542
00:52:22,028 --> 00:52:22,468
brilliantly

1543
00:52:22,468 --> 00:52:23,848
another

1544
00:52:23,848 --> 00:52:24,388
there's another

1545
00:52:24,388 --> 00:52:25,308
person who

1546
00:52:25,308 --> 00:52:25,788
who

1547
00:52:25,788 --> 00:52:28,048
came last night

1548
00:52:28,208 --> 00:52:30,388
He pointed out really interesting stuff

1549
00:52:30,388 --> 00:52:33,068
because I was talking about the Flint community

1550
00:52:33,068 --> 00:52:35,988
and how other people can give you feedback

1551
00:52:35,988 --> 00:52:38,788
on your alpha level apps, etc.

1552
00:52:39,628 --> 00:52:42,308
And he's like, you can tell Claude

1553
00:52:42,308 --> 00:52:47,888
to create different personas to test your app.

1554
00:52:48,588 --> 00:52:50,408
At least as a first wave,

1555
00:52:50,488 --> 00:52:52,368
you don't even need humans to test your app.

1556
00:52:52,428 --> 00:52:53,948
You just create all these different personas

1557
00:52:53,948 --> 00:52:54,628
to test your app.

1558
00:52:54,628 --> 00:52:56,628
He had a bunch of good...

1559
00:52:56,628 --> 00:53:03,048
Yeah, he talked about like, I had demoed The Shed, which is kind of a jazz pianist practice app.

1560
00:53:03,268 --> 00:53:03,748
And he said-

1561
00:53:03,748 --> 00:53:04,868
But you demoed here two weeks ago.

1562
00:53:05,368 --> 00:53:05,948
Last week.

1563
00:53:06,488 --> 00:53:06,848
Briefly.

1564
00:53:06,848 --> 00:53:08,248
We talked about, yeah, we talked about here, yeah.

1565
00:53:09,228 --> 00:53:15,928
But then he was like, imagine, he'll tell Claude, imagine you're the thousand best jazz pianists in the world.

1566
00:53:16,108 --> 00:53:18,988
Now use this app and practice with it and see how it works.

1567
00:53:19,368 --> 00:53:23,188
So I think that as like a concept of a prompt, he mentioned it as well for like a dentist.

1568
00:53:23,188 --> 00:53:27,428
Like he had a friend or somebody who knows who's building an app to help dentists run their practice.

1569
00:53:27,528 --> 00:53:31,428
And he's like, now you're the top thousand dentists in the world and you need to use this app.

1570
00:53:31,848 --> 00:53:33,148
So you can kind of interact with it.

1571
00:53:33,188 --> 00:53:38,568
I think he was sort of posing it as an alternative to the need to collaborate with humans for this.

1572
00:53:38,628 --> 00:53:40,548
And I actually don't, I see it as augmentative.

1573
00:53:40,668 --> 00:53:47,208
Because I do a lot where I have Claude write its own tests and try to bang on its own stuff and try to break it.

1574
00:53:47,208 --> 00:54:01,688
That's, I'd say, a very common pattern, but that doesn't obviate my need to collaborate or the benefit I get from shooting something off in one of our chats and getting some feedback on, oh, it doesn't quite work like that, or what if you tried it like this instead?

1575
00:54:02,608 --> 00:54:12,188
I think you can take almost any idea, and there's almost infinite number of implementations of the concept of, take a social network for agents.

1576
00:54:12,628 --> 00:54:14,868
There's an infinite number of ways that could work.

1577
00:54:14,868 --> 00:54:16,668
We have an example of one of them,

1578
00:54:16,768 --> 00:54:20,148
but there's still infinite underexplored ones.

1579
00:54:20,668 --> 00:54:22,768
So I don't think it means you don't want,

1580
00:54:23,508 --> 00:54:25,268
you don't need, you don't get value

1581
00:54:25,268 --> 00:54:26,228
out of collaborating with humans.

1582
00:54:26,308 --> 00:54:27,308
I think you still get value,

1583
00:54:27,488 --> 00:54:29,668
but anything that's just a pure grind,

1584
00:54:29,928 --> 00:54:31,228
you can give to somebody else.

1585
00:54:31,228 --> 00:54:34,308
I remember what you said that was related.

1586
00:54:35,168 --> 00:54:39,588
You said that everyone is underusing AI.

1587
00:54:40,268 --> 00:54:43,508
Whether you're someone who's fiber coding daily

1588
00:54:43,508 --> 00:54:44,288
and totally into it,

1589
00:54:44,288 --> 00:54:45,868
they're still underusing it

1590
00:54:45,868 --> 00:54:48,908
or people who are waiting a month, right?

1591
00:54:51,908 --> 00:54:52,748
Soon, TM.

1592
00:54:53,348 --> 00:54:53,768
I think we're,

1593
00:54:53,888 --> 00:54:55,048
and not just vibe coding,

1594
00:54:55,148 --> 00:54:56,188
but using, I mean,

1595
00:54:56,348 --> 00:54:57,808
there are examples given last night

1596
00:54:57,808 --> 00:55:01,728
where people are using it to save money

1597
00:55:01,728 --> 00:55:03,368
or time, money, et cetera.

1598
00:55:03,448 --> 00:55:04,368
Because we were talking about the cost.

1599
00:55:04,448 --> 00:55:07,208
We talked about the cost in the show last week

1600
00:55:07,208 --> 00:55:09,768
and like different ways to justify,

1601
00:55:10,008 --> 00:55:11,608
is it worth $20 a month?

1602
00:55:11,668 --> 00:55:13,688
Is it worth $200 a month?

1603
00:55:14,288 --> 00:55:15,628
who can afford that?

1604
00:55:15,708 --> 00:55:17,368
Well, you know, if you're like,

1605
00:55:17,488 --> 00:55:19,508
oh, this is a better use of funds

1606
00:55:19,508 --> 00:55:21,428
than paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for college,

1607
00:55:21,788 --> 00:55:23,688
then obviously you can justify it.

1608
00:55:23,688 --> 00:55:27,688
Or, you know, saving time or money.

1609
00:55:28,068 --> 00:55:29,768
Did he give you an example of like,

1610
00:55:29,848 --> 00:55:31,928
you know, you need to deal with some bureaucracy or a lawyer.

1611
00:55:32,188 --> 00:55:33,788
You're not supposed to dox people at Builder.

1612
00:55:34,708 --> 00:55:36,288
It's Chatham House rule of tax.

1613
00:55:36,528 --> 00:55:39,888
Somebody at Builder had to deal with the county bureaucracy.

1614
00:55:40,248 --> 00:55:42,348
I believe it was MaltBot.

1615
00:55:44,288 --> 00:55:46,288
had to deal with accounting bureaucracy.

1616
00:55:46,468 --> 00:55:48,328
But like, I mean, reviewing legal docs or whatever,

1617
00:55:48,468 --> 00:55:49,908
like obviously, you know, hire a lawyer,

1618
00:55:50,008 --> 00:55:51,108
do your own research, blah, blah, blah.

1619
00:55:51,188 --> 00:55:52,428
But like 99% of the time,

1620
00:55:52,508 --> 00:55:53,508
probably just don't hire you.

1621
00:55:53,688 --> 00:55:55,588
Yeah, just like test and prod.

1622
00:55:55,848 --> 00:55:58,288
Well, what's crazy is your counterparty

1623
00:55:58,288 --> 00:56:01,608
in these situations is probably also underutilizing it,

1624
00:56:01,748 --> 00:56:04,848
probably even more underutilizing it than you are.

1625
00:56:05,368 --> 00:56:08,188
So if you get a massive edge just by saying,

1626
00:56:08,188 --> 00:56:11,828
hey, like, you know, Claude or TechCPT or Taminar,

1627
00:56:11,908 --> 00:56:12,368
what are your favorite?

1628
00:56:12,988 --> 00:56:14,988
Write me a thing as if you were a lawyer.

1629
00:56:15,168 --> 00:56:16,028
I'm not asking for legal advice,

1630
00:56:16,108 --> 00:56:16,888
but write me a thing

1631
00:56:16,888 --> 00:56:18,568
so that I'm going to use this

1632
00:56:18,568 --> 00:56:19,608
as a letter to the county.

1633
00:56:19,888 --> 00:56:21,528
And then when you send it to the county,

1634
00:56:21,588 --> 00:56:22,368
the person in the other is like,

1635
00:56:22,628 --> 00:56:24,548
oh, wow, this looks like the person really,

1636
00:56:24,768 --> 00:56:26,368
this sounds like it was written by a lawyer.

1637
00:56:26,468 --> 00:56:29,368
So I assume all the T's are crossed

1638
00:56:29,368 --> 00:56:30,488
and I's are dotted and stuff.

1639
00:56:30,748 --> 00:56:31,268
What a weird world.

1640
00:56:31,648 --> 00:56:32,568
And so if you're not,

1641
00:56:32,688 --> 00:56:33,428
if you're using it,

1642
00:56:33,508 --> 00:56:34,548
you get that massive advantage

1643
00:56:34,548 --> 00:56:36,168
that they take you very seriously.

1644
00:56:36,648 --> 00:56:37,548
And if you're not using it,

1645
00:56:37,548 --> 00:56:39,328
you're just playing the old game, right?

1646
00:56:39,528 --> 00:56:40,288
Well, it's kind of crazy

1647
00:56:40,288 --> 00:56:41,108
because in a weird way,

1648
00:56:41,208 --> 00:56:41,708
it's like, yeah,

1649
00:56:41,708 --> 00:56:46,448
it's like one of the major product market fits for ai is just navigating this like crap useless

1650
00:56:46,448 --> 00:56:50,608
bureaucracy which we now have and it's kind of funny because it's like the bots i could see like

1651
00:56:50,608 --> 00:56:54,488
i wonder if they're gonna like quickly realize like yo this is so dumb why are we still operating

1652
00:56:54,488 --> 00:57:00,048
like it's like 1850 or if they're gonna like learn and like accelerate based on like yes please like

1653
00:57:00,048 --> 00:57:06,908
give me uh give me your five to do's and uh action items for the week and like yeah yeah i don't know

1654
00:57:06,908 --> 00:57:11,068
or there's gonna be a multiple worlds that's been there's gonna be like ai as a way to like

1655
00:57:11,068 --> 00:57:15,348
DDoS, the old systems, and then the AIs that just go off and, you know, test and broad.

1656
00:57:15,348 --> 00:57:21,888
I think the AIs are going to want the tools that, I think a lot of the tools that we talk

1657
00:57:21,888 --> 00:57:25,848
about are based on like, you know, cryptographic signing of a thing.

1658
00:57:26,268 --> 00:57:28,588
And I think AI is going to be like, yeah, we can trust that.

1659
00:57:28,808 --> 00:57:28,888
Yeah.

1660
00:57:29,368 --> 00:57:35,748
And I don't think people have focused enough on how much that matters because users typically

1661
00:57:35,748 --> 00:57:39,848
like, ah, just give me a, I want to Google off into that or like, let me sign in the

1662
00:57:39,848 --> 00:57:41,388
way that I'm comfortable with.

1663
00:57:41,968 --> 00:57:44,068
And AIs don't care about what's comfortable.

1664
00:57:44,228 --> 00:57:45,768
They just care about what makes sense.

1665
00:57:46,068 --> 00:57:48,188
So they actually analyze the thing.

1666
00:57:48,448 --> 00:57:49,608
They look at the

1667
00:57:49,608 --> 00:57:51,848
5,000 options available

1668
00:57:51,848 --> 00:57:53,908
and like, this is the one I want. And it always comes back

1669
00:57:53,908 --> 00:57:55,528
to something that's more

1670
00:57:55,528 --> 00:57:57,828
verifiable that you don't

1671
00:57:57,828 --> 00:58:00,148
have to trust and you can actually verify and it's math-based.

1672
00:58:00,748 --> 00:58:01,988
So I think that's a great time

1673
00:58:01,988 --> 00:58:04,048
for all the topics we talk about.

1674
00:58:04,308 --> 00:58:05,348
I think that's a really great point.

1675
00:58:05,548 --> 00:58:07,828
It kind of dovetails off of the agents

1676
00:58:07,828 --> 00:58:09,268
debating Solana versus Bitcoin.

1677
00:58:09,268 --> 00:58:12,648
And like, I mean, we're obviously very biased, but we think there's like an obvious actual

1678
00:58:12,648 --> 00:58:13,568
answer to that question.

1679
00:58:14,148 --> 00:58:16,388
Similar to like, hey man, just trust me, bro.

1680
00:58:16,428 --> 00:58:19,928
Here's my screenshot from DocuSign versus like, I'm going to need to see cryptographic

1681
00:58:19,928 --> 00:58:20,208
proof.

1682
00:58:20,888 --> 00:58:24,948
What, you know, I'm curious for both of you guys, but I know you've spent a lot of time,

1683
00:58:24,948 --> 00:58:27,948
you know, thinking about Nostra over the last five years or whatever it's been.

1684
00:58:28,828 --> 00:58:37,968
How do you think if you were today designing experiments to let some of these bots try and

1685
00:58:37,968 --> 00:58:42,288
evolve on Nostra? Like, what do you think is like interesting fodder to explore?

1686
00:58:43,588 --> 00:58:48,568
Well, let's take the thing that we have some evidence of is like, you know,

1687
00:58:48,748 --> 00:58:53,988
molt book is kind of an interesting concept. But I think a lot of what works is, you know,

1688
00:58:54,348 --> 00:59:00,828
whoever were the first few people participating created moments of spectacle that could be shared

1689
00:59:00,828 --> 00:59:04,828
on Twitter that can then go viral and people talk about it. And that kind of compounds. So

1690
00:59:04,828 --> 00:59:08,768
There's a lot of like social consensus building that has worked for that.

1691
00:59:09,188 --> 00:59:13,148
I think the idea is super fascinating, but I think the idea didn't just explode.

1692
00:59:13,408 --> 00:59:19,468
There's people who are creating a certain framing of it and helping it do, helping it

1693
00:59:19,468 --> 00:59:21,048
become more visible because of that.

1694
00:59:21,428 --> 00:59:25,488
If you wanted to, and I like, I love the fact that it happened.

1695
00:59:25,608 --> 00:59:26,648
I love the fact that we have it.

1696
00:59:27,048 --> 00:59:32,748
It, I think, inspires a lot of ideas of what can be and gives you like, you know, a piece

1697
00:59:32,748 --> 00:59:33,408
of evidence of it.

1698
00:59:33,408 --> 00:59:43,548
But like, do you actually want it with this like sort of weird, like human involved, you know, authentication system that that seems not super good.

1699
00:59:43,548 --> 00:59:47,888
And like, is it going to run algorithms to surface these things to the different bots?

1700
00:59:47,988 --> 00:59:50,508
That seems kind of like not super sensical.

1701
00:59:50,508 --> 00:59:56,688
so I would imagine that if you wanted to experiment with that kind of thing in a

1702
00:59:56,688 --> 01:00:02,228
Nostra environment instead of trying to like make it big and everywhere try to make it like

1703
01:00:02,228 --> 01:00:07,428
really high signal for like two bots talking to each other like come up with a topic or some

1704
01:00:07,428 --> 01:00:13,008
problem you're trying to solve and then just have them connected to each other writing back and

1705
01:00:13,008 --> 01:00:18,168
forth and see where that goes and then if that turns out to be interesting maybe invite a third

1706
01:00:18,168 --> 01:00:20,108
in. Maybe you invite a fourth in. But don't

1707
01:00:20,108 --> 01:00:22,148
try to make it big. Try to make it

1708
01:00:22,148 --> 01:00:24,228
good. What's an example

1709
01:00:24,228 --> 01:00:25,468
of a topic you might start with?

1710
01:00:26,348 --> 01:00:28,088
One of the things that has been on my

1711
01:00:28,088 --> 01:00:29,368
mind is

1712
01:00:29,368 --> 01:00:31,748
I built this

1713
01:00:31,748 --> 01:00:33,748
open source prediction market thing

1714
01:00:33,748 --> 01:00:36,508
and there's a lot of Bitcoin payments

1715
01:00:36,508 --> 01:00:38,168
and verification problems

1716
01:00:38,168 --> 01:00:40,208
and how do you split the payments and how do you keep

1717
01:00:40,208 --> 01:00:41,908
it non-custodial and stuff. Maybe

1718
01:00:41,908 --> 01:00:44,208
I would set up two bots on Oster to

1719
01:00:44,208 --> 01:00:46,268
debate that discussion and see

1720
01:00:46,268 --> 01:00:47,668
if they come up with

1721
01:00:47,668 --> 01:00:50,228
a better plan or path.

1722
01:00:50,468 --> 01:00:51,268
This is good.

1723
01:00:51,528 --> 01:00:54,608
I just set them loose on each other

1724
01:00:54,608 --> 01:00:56,428
to go solve that, and they never give up.

1725
01:00:56,988 --> 01:00:58,428
Just be like, keep asking questions

1726
01:00:58,428 --> 01:00:59,608
until you get to the bottom of this.

1727
01:01:00,128 --> 01:01:01,868
And if you feel like you have the final design,

1728
01:01:01,948 --> 01:01:02,808
then build the thing, right?

1729
01:01:03,608 --> 01:01:05,508
And maybe, yeah, maybe they'll have

1730
01:01:05,508 --> 01:01:06,588
a new protocol suggestion.

1731
01:01:06,588 --> 01:01:08,628
And Steve, how do these mole bots

1732
01:01:08,628 --> 01:01:09,628
apply for Spiral Graph?

1733
01:01:11,108 --> 01:01:11,328
Why?

1734
01:01:12,308 --> 01:01:13,168
That's a good question.

1735
01:01:14,328 --> 01:01:16,448
I'm interested in working on that project with you.

1736
01:01:16,448 --> 01:01:18,128
I think that would be really fascinating.

1737
01:01:18,488 --> 01:01:20,308
I think we should actually mention that for a second

1738
01:01:20,308 --> 01:01:22,128
because you're sparking my mind.

1739
01:01:22,348 --> 01:01:24,168
You asked me what I've learned from my Vibe coding.

1740
01:01:24,808 --> 01:01:27,108
One thing that I think you've run into an issue with is,

1741
01:01:27,468 --> 01:01:30,648
so we talked about what I'm building with MemeChat last time.

1742
01:01:31,048 --> 01:01:33,908
What I want is the ability for anyone to create a meme.

1743
01:01:34,628 --> 01:01:37,028
You can then, someone can zap it, tip it,

1744
01:01:37,508 --> 01:01:39,728
and you get the payment.

1745
01:01:39,868 --> 01:01:40,688
And that already works,

1746
01:01:40,768 --> 01:01:42,208
but all the payment goes to, I think,

1747
01:01:42,248 --> 01:01:43,808
the MDK wallet that I've set up.

1748
01:01:43,808 --> 01:01:51,088
right um now what i really want is to do splits and so you know you dk come to my site you create

1749
01:01:51,088 --> 01:01:54,508
a funny meme um one that i need to create i don't have this template yet but it's like the

1750
01:01:54,508 --> 01:01:59,748
samali pirate saying i'm the developer now something like that and uh that's it's on my

1751
01:01:59,748 --> 01:02:04,008
pm to-do list because i'm i feel like yeah i feel like what are you the poo down like you know like

1752
01:02:04,008 --> 01:02:11,868
writing down random shit like i'm a pm now um and so um so you create that meme or whatever come on

1753
01:02:11,868 --> 01:02:17,648
my site and then someone zaps it, whether it's on Nostra. So it's already published as a Nostra

1754
01:02:17,648 --> 01:02:21,588
event. Boomy tested this from Albie, which is really cool. Still some stuff to fix. It's not

1755
01:02:21,588 --> 01:02:26,208
showing inline. It's always the horrible things. I've gone back and forth, like why won't this show

1756
01:02:26,208 --> 01:02:30,428
inline on Primal or WhatsApp? And there's just like all this crap, which is something maybe the

1757
01:02:30,428 --> 01:02:35,268
bots can figure out. But anyways, so then someone zaps it. The platform will say it gets 10%,

1758
01:02:35,268 --> 01:02:38,668
you get 90%. Then Steve's like, oh, that's a great meme. I'm going to share it over here.

1759
01:02:38,668 --> 01:02:40,468
and then he gets cut into the splits.

1760
01:02:40,508 --> 01:02:41,948
He gets 5%, you know.

1761
01:02:42,148 --> 01:02:42,248
Yeah.

1762
01:02:42,708 --> 01:02:44,668
And then there's like a structure

1763
01:02:44,668 --> 01:02:45,548
that looks kind of like this.

1764
01:02:45,608 --> 01:02:47,668
The guy below him gets, you know, 4.5.

1765
01:02:48,628 --> 01:02:50,348
You've invented multi-level markets.

1766
01:02:50,368 --> 01:02:50,668
Exactly.

1767
01:02:51,688 --> 01:02:52,588
I'm glad you saw that.

1768
01:02:53,208 --> 01:02:55,928
Anyways, so, but the problem that I've run into,

1769
01:02:56,008 --> 01:02:57,048
I think it's similar to yours is,

1770
01:02:57,328 --> 01:02:58,628
at least as far as I can tell,

1771
01:02:58,668 --> 01:02:59,768
and I've asked a lot of smart people,

1772
01:03:00,128 --> 01:03:01,988
there's not a way to do that non-custodially.

1773
01:03:02,108 --> 01:03:02,928
Like the only way to do that

1774
01:03:02,928 --> 01:03:04,528
with something like Nostra Wallet Connect today

1775
01:03:04,528 --> 01:03:06,688
is to forward the payments.

1776
01:03:06,688 --> 01:03:08,248
So someone gets a payment,

1777
01:03:08,248 --> 01:03:10,388
the platform, they forward 90%

1778
01:03:10,388 --> 01:03:12,408
to DK, who forwards 5%

1779
01:03:12,408 --> 01:03:14,308
to Steve. And that's fine, but if you,

1780
01:03:14,548 --> 01:03:16,148
but there's like some question of like, you know,

1781
01:03:16,248 --> 01:03:18,448
like, are you actually transmitting money or this and that?

1782
01:03:18,688 --> 01:03:20,228
But if you could do that non-Castellia, there's no

1783
01:03:20,228 --> 01:03:22,428
question. We don't have a great way to do that,

1784
01:03:22,488 --> 01:03:24,348
but maybe we should, maybe we should

1785
01:03:24,348 --> 01:03:25,988
try and come back next week with a new protocol

1786
01:03:25,988 --> 01:03:28,228
from the bots. I think the problem is

1787
01:03:28,228 --> 01:03:29,448
protocol developers

1788
01:03:29,448 --> 01:03:32,248
think it's impossible or don't know how to do it with

1789
01:03:32,248 --> 01:03:33,928
channel-based systems like Lightning.

1790
01:03:34,348 --> 01:03:36,008
So that may be the case, but then maybe

1791
01:03:36,008 --> 01:03:37,668
that's not the case, though.

1792
01:03:37,668 --> 01:03:39,328
or maybe there's

1793
01:03:39,328 --> 01:03:39,928
like a completely

1794
01:03:39,928 --> 01:03:40,688
different

1795
01:03:40,688 --> 01:03:41,688
design

1796
01:03:41,688 --> 01:03:42,708
I'd be interested

1797
01:03:42,708 --> 01:03:43,288
in exploring

1798
01:03:43,288 --> 01:03:43,848
everything

1799
01:03:43,848 --> 01:03:44,248
but like

1800
01:03:44,248 --> 01:03:45,288
on Arc or Spark

1801
01:03:45,288 --> 01:03:45,808
which are not

1802
01:03:45,808 --> 01:03:46,388
channel based

1803
01:03:46,388 --> 01:03:47,228
like maybe

1804
01:03:47,228 --> 01:03:48,908
maybe doing it there

1805
01:03:48,908 --> 01:03:49,368
you can do

1806
01:03:49,368 --> 01:03:49,948
eCache too

1807
01:03:49,948 --> 01:03:51,708
it doesn't seem

1808
01:03:51,708 --> 01:03:52,248
like this is

1809
01:03:52,248 --> 01:03:53,328
unsolvable

1810
01:03:53,328 --> 01:03:53,748
but maybe

1811
01:03:53,748 --> 01:03:54,968
actually I don't

1812
01:03:54,968 --> 01:03:55,948
see how eCache

1813
01:03:55,948 --> 01:03:56,968
because the

1814
01:03:56,968 --> 01:03:57,548
what we're

1815
01:03:57,548 --> 01:03:58,308
it's custodial

1816
01:03:58,308 --> 01:03:58,948
but we're trying

1817
01:03:58,948 --> 01:03:59,528
to solve this

1818
01:03:59,528 --> 01:04:00,408
for it not to be

1819
01:04:00,408 --> 01:04:00,788
custodial

1820
01:04:00,788 --> 01:04:01,488
so then you're

1821
01:04:01,488 --> 01:04:02,028
just solving it

1822
01:04:02,028 --> 01:04:02,608
with custodial

1823
01:04:02,608 --> 01:04:02,888
solutions

1824
01:04:02,888 --> 01:04:05,088
speaking of

1825
01:04:05,088 --> 01:04:05,488
well

1826
01:04:05,488 --> 01:04:06,768
I mean

1827
01:04:06,768 --> 01:04:07,128
sorry

1828
01:04:07,128 --> 01:04:07,588
but even

1829
01:04:07,588 --> 01:04:12,008
And even like Spark has trust as well.

1830
01:04:12,448 --> 01:04:15,348
Arguably, though, it would be better than the kind of trust

1831
01:04:15,348 --> 01:04:16,968
that Prism has on Lightning.

1832
01:04:16,968 --> 01:04:20,988
And I think actually, not arguably, but sort of definitively better

1833
01:04:20,988 --> 01:04:23,528
on the trust spectrum, even if it's not perfect.

1834
01:04:24,068 --> 01:04:29,228
But Arc might actually be the most promising area to explore.

1835
01:04:29,368 --> 01:04:30,168
We should ask CloudBot.

1836
01:04:30,448 --> 01:04:31,048
Sorry, go ahead.

1837
01:04:31,288 --> 01:04:34,588
So we were talking about that idea of having two bots on Nostra

1838
01:04:34,588 --> 01:04:36,028
debate things with each other, right?

1839
01:04:36,028 --> 01:04:42,948
there's another idea that we had chatted in our special chat about,

1840
01:04:43,308 --> 01:04:45,428
which I think is actually worth some expansion.

1841
01:04:46,508 --> 01:04:49,268
So within the Flint community, there's a private view

1842
01:04:49,268 --> 01:04:52,288
that if you're a member, you can see that's called ideas.

1843
01:04:52,768 --> 01:04:54,828
And it's a channel where you submit ideas.

1844
01:04:54,988 --> 01:04:56,428
You may want to work on it.

1845
01:04:56,488 --> 01:04:59,628
You may not want to work on it, but maybe it inspires somebody else.

1846
01:04:59,708 --> 01:05:02,448
Maybe it attracts collaborators or kind of thought partners

1847
01:05:02,448 --> 01:05:03,128
or kind of debate.

1848
01:05:03,128 --> 01:05:16,628
And so that right now, it's such a good channel that when I referenced it and you pulled it up at builders last night, because then you get to see a lot of people who are, if you're not yet in Flint, you don't get to see that.

1849
01:05:16,628 --> 01:05:19,088
So at least to like demo that this thing exists.

1850
01:05:19,848 --> 01:05:34,028
But I was thinking it'd be great to have just a open public idea box where anybody who wants could basically write a bit of a prompt or an idea for something that should be built.

1851
01:05:34,628 --> 01:05:36,228
People could debate it and discuss it.

1852
01:05:36,548 --> 01:05:37,688
And then you could fund it.

1853
01:05:37,748 --> 01:05:40,928
So it's almost like crowdfunding for collaborative vibe coding.

1854
01:05:41,108 --> 01:05:41,428
I love it.

1855
01:05:41,428 --> 01:05:43,428
And so you build an idea bot.

1856
01:05:43,508 --> 01:05:46,608
Maybe you have bots debate the merits or the architecture

1857
01:05:46,608 --> 01:05:50,008
or kind of the MVP or the process you want to go about.

1858
01:05:50,248 --> 01:05:53,028
And then people are like, oh, I would like to use that.

1859
01:05:53,168 --> 01:05:54,628
I'm going to send it 100 Bitcoin.

1860
01:05:55,868 --> 01:05:57,308
I thought where you're going with that,

1861
01:05:57,528 --> 01:06:00,128
like crowdfund paying for the bots to debate

1862
01:06:00,128 --> 01:06:02,808
and come up with a solution because that costs money.

1863
01:06:02,868 --> 01:06:03,548
That costs money.

1864
01:06:03,848 --> 01:06:07,328
That's probably a much,

1865
01:06:07,328 --> 01:06:09,688
I guess it's orders of magnitude less money

1866
01:06:09,688 --> 01:06:11,188
than the building itself.

1867
01:06:11,428 --> 01:06:13,648
So maybe that gets sort of like wrapped.

1868
01:06:13,648 --> 01:06:14,868
More easily subsidized.

1869
01:06:14,948 --> 01:06:16,788
Yeah, it gets subsidized by the stuff that actually gets built.

1870
01:06:16,948 --> 01:06:17,608
I love this idea.

1871
01:06:17,608 --> 01:06:20,248
And actually, I think Christopher Nebo was mentioning

1872
01:06:20,248 --> 01:06:22,268
that he wanted to do something,

1873
01:06:22,388 --> 01:06:23,268
like something very similar.

1874
01:06:23,388 --> 01:06:26,208
And he was like, oh, we'll need like $100 worth of compute to do this.

1875
01:06:26,528 --> 01:06:27,268
It was like a guess.

1876
01:06:27,788 --> 01:06:30,388
And I told him, we'll just post it on Nostra or Stackernos.

1877
01:06:30,508 --> 01:06:31,408
I bet people will zap it.

1878
01:06:32,688 --> 01:06:32,828
Yeah.

1879
01:06:33,588 --> 01:06:35,548
So can we talk a little bit about,

1880
01:06:35,848 --> 01:06:38,348
I think we tweeted out, we're going to talk about crypto is dying.

1881
01:06:38,728 --> 01:06:40,608
I was imagining talking about sentiment.

1882
01:06:40,608 --> 01:06:42,768
What the hell is this crypto, Alex?

1883
01:06:43,548 --> 01:06:44,728
Sharing that, you know?

1884
01:06:45,088 --> 01:06:47,988
Do you know that it references a specific tweet?

1885
01:06:48,608 --> 01:06:48,748
Yeah.

1886
01:06:49,308 --> 01:06:50,388
One you shared, right?

1887
01:06:50,928 --> 01:06:52,208
Yeah, I may have shared it, yeah.

1888
01:06:52,308 --> 01:06:52,668
I don't know.

1889
01:06:52,868 --> 01:06:53,428
What is this tweet?

1890
01:06:53,708 --> 01:07:03,608
Plus there was, well, we can talk about that tweet, but also, I mean, just, you know, for those not paying attention, the Bitcoin price peaked at $125K.

1891
01:07:04,328 --> 01:07:06,168
It's $80 something now, right?

1892
01:07:06,168 --> 01:07:12,228
So not some disastrous crash like past cycles, but certainly down.

1893
01:07:12,708 --> 01:07:17,268
And then juxtapose that with gold, silver, copper,

1894
01:07:18,488 --> 01:07:19,068
everything else.

1895
01:07:19,668 --> 01:07:22,228
All these commodities which are taking off,

1896
01:07:22,688 --> 01:07:30,268
which just adds to anxiety, I think, among Bitcoin bulls or crypto bulls.

1897
01:07:30,768 --> 01:07:33,908
So then people are seeking explanations.

1898
01:07:34,208 --> 01:07:35,648
Why is this happening right now?

1899
01:07:35,648 --> 01:07:37,728
So we've talked about quantum a lot.

1900
01:07:37,808 --> 01:07:39,348
How much of an impact is that having?

1901
01:07:40,548 --> 01:07:47,668
In early October, there was some huge leverage crypto explosion

1902
01:07:47,668 --> 01:07:52,728
that there's rumors and maybe with some data and substance behind it

1903
01:07:52,728 --> 01:07:56,148
that people got blown up there, people who were trading crypto

1904
01:07:56,148 --> 01:08:00,648
but also have large Bitcoin bags and they had to reach into those Bitcoin bags

1905
01:08:00,648 --> 01:08:01,708
to cover their losses.

1906
01:08:02,048 --> 01:08:03,788
How much of an impact was that?

1907
01:08:03,788 --> 01:08:14,132
And then yeah you have that tweet I got the tweet yeah I mean it too long to read the whole thing but the concept is a question posed

1908
01:08:14,292 --> 01:08:15,952
why has Bitcoin had a down year

1909
01:08:15,952 --> 01:08:18,152
towards crypto contagion?

1910
01:08:18,352 --> 01:08:19,812
So it's basically kind of like you said,

1911
01:08:19,832 --> 01:08:21,352
they have to reach into their Bitcoin bags

1912
01:08:21,352 --> 01:08:23,472
to subsidize losses and other things.

1913
01:08:23,892 --> 01:08:24,812
Not a silent IPO.

1914
01:08:25,132 --> 01:08:26,132
It's not OG selling.

1915
01:08:26,252 --> 01:08:27,312
It's because crypto is dying

1916
01:08:27,312 --> 01:08:28,992
and Bitcoin is a correlated asset.

1917
01:08:29,832 --> 01:08:31,792
Crypto and Bitcoin have a lot of correlation

1918
01:08:31,792 --> 01:08:34,172
because people who are in crypto

1919
01:08:34,172 --> 01:08:36,812
often also understand that Bitcoin is interesting.

1920
01:08:37,292 --> 01:08:38,452
And so they often hold it.

1921
01:08:38,552 --> 01:08:40,572
But OG selling, that's another narrative

1922
01:08:40,572 --> 01:08:42,532
that's been posited.

1923
01:08:43,392 --> 01:08:47,612
Then there's also, you know, so much hype around AI.

1924
01:08:48,092 --> 01:08:49,352
Things are moving to AI.

1925
01:08:49,472 --> 01:08:51,952
I mean, we talk about AI on the show all the time.

1926
01:08:52,032 --> 01:08:53,912
We say like none of us are using it enough, right?

1927
01:08:53,992 --> 01:08:55,972
So we're AI bulls.

1928
01:08:57,452 --> 01:08:59,752
But then like miners, we talked about that on the show.

1929
01:08:59,752 --> 01:09:06,032
miners are dropping Bitcoin, moving to AI, or adding AI along with Bitcoin.

1930
01:09:06,892 --> 01:09:13,772
So sentiment feels kind of at best meh, if not negative right now.

1931
01:09:13,812 --> 01:09:14,532
I would say bad.

1932
01:09:14,672 --> 01:09:15,352
Bad.

1933
01:09:16,072 --> 01:09:22,172
And then another narrative is like Bitcoin has been positioned,

1934
01:09:22,632 --> 01:09:25,252
the strongest narrative is digital gold.

1935
01:09:25,252 --> 01:09:28,392
and it's now revealing it lost

1936
01:09:28,392 --> 01:09:30,892
because gold is taking off so far.

1937
01:09:31,752 --> 01:09:32,932
Yeah, well, I'll get to my...

1938
01:09:32,932 --> 01:09:33,332
That's the narrative.

1939
01:09:33,592 --> 01:09:34,492
This is not my opinion.

1940
01:09:34,632 --> 01:09:35,972
Yeah, I'm just saying that's the narrative

1941
01:09:35,972 --> 01:09:37,372
that I'm seeing and hearing.

1942
01:09:37,592 --> 01:09:38,372
I think you guys have too.

1943
01:09:40,352 --> 01:09:41,012
You know, and actually,

1944
01:09:41,252 --> 01:09:42,292
I think it's kind of funny.

1945
01:09:43,812 --> 01:09:46,412
We, not to toot our own horns on this show,

1946
01:09:46,472 --> 01:09:50,272
but we were talking about gold to Bitcoin price

1947
01:09:50,272 --> 01:09:55,232
long before the rise from like $3,000 to $54,000

1948
01:09:55,232 --> 01:09:56,892
400 per ounce of gold.

1949
01:09:57,312 --> 01:09:59,372
Like it was last summer we started talking about that.

1950
01:09:59,452 --> 01:10:05,492
And we said, well, first of all, it's a little surprising that over a four-year period, it's

1951
01:10:05,492 --> 01:10:11,912
cherry-picked time period, but that the Bitcoin gold price hadn't changed in four years.

1952
01:10:11,992 --> 01:10:13,172
Again, cherry-picked time frame.

1953
01:10:13,392 --> 01:10:17,932
But still, like I think our own mentality and probably most people in Bitcoin just think

1954
01:10:17,932 --> 01:10:21,592
it's like you could choose any time frame and Bitcoin blows gold away.

1955
01:10:21,672 --> 01:10:22,872
And that's not true.

1956
01:10:22,872 --> 01:10:25,612
And that was when it was around, I think, 3,000 an ounce.

1957
01:10:25,712 --> 01:10:27,452
Now it's like 5,400.

1958
01:10:28,672 --> 01:10:30,272
We should look up what the price is now.

1959
01:10:30,452 --> 01:10:31,812
It would be dramatically different.

1960
01:10:33,132 --> 01:10:39,052
But in any case, lots of negativity that I see

1961
01:10:39,052 --> 01:10:41,532
are like reaching for explanations.

1962
01:10:42,172 --> 01:10:44,052
We talked about, I think, gold in the last show

1963
01:10:44,052 --> 01:10:45,352
or one of the recent shows.

1964
01:10:45,892 --> 01:10:48,832
I don't view that as a concern whatsoever

1965
01:10:48,832 --> 01:10:52,232
with respect to the digital gold narrative for Bitcoin.

1966
01:10:52,232 --> 01:10:55,972
because the new big buyers of gold

1967
01:10:55,972 --> 01:10:57,752
are like Poland's central bank

1968
01:10:57,752 --> 01:10:58,932
and other countries' central banks.

1969
01:10:59,152 --> 01:11:03,012
I think it's unrealistic that in 2026

1970
01:11:03,012 --> 01:11:04,792
that all these central banks

1971
01:11:04,792 --> 01:11:07,912
from fairly large countries and economies

1972
01:11:07,912 --> 01:11:10,052
that they've been so orange-pilled

1973
01:11:10,052 --> 01:11:11,892
that they buy Bitcoin instead of gold.

1974
01:11:11,992 --> 01:11:13,432
I just think it's not mature enough.

1975
01:11:13,552 --> 01:11:14,752
Even if there's a few people

1976
01:11:14,752 --> 01:11:18,252
who are responsible for the treasury of those countries,

1977
01:11:18,432 --> 01:11:21,072
they probably don't have an operational way to handle it.

1978
01:11:21,072 --> 01:11:24,832
where they do have decades, maybe centuries

1979
01:11:24,832 --> 01:11:26,492
of how to handle gold.

1980
01:11:26,772 --> 01:11:27,052
Millennia.

1981
01:11:27,672 --> 01:11:29,312
So I don't view this as like,

1982
01:11:29,372 --> 01:11:31,112
oh, Bitcoin lost to gold,

1983
01:11:31,252 --> 01:11:33,152
so the narrative has been shattered.

1984
01:11:33,392 --> 01:11:34,972
It's like, no, we're not there yet.

1985
01:11:35,032 --> 01:11:37,472
Maturity-wise, it's still to be determined

1986
01:11:37,472 --> 01:11:40,712
whether it will win over those types of use cases.

1987
01:11:41,392 --> 01:11:45,012
But gold's rise is because of that buying.

1988
01:11:45,012 --> 01:11:48,152
I don't view that as shattering, that narrative.

1989
01:11:48,552 --> 01:11:50,032
I think another really important point, too,

1990
01:11:50,032 --> 01:11:51,672
we talk so much about

1991
01:11:51,672 --> 01:11:53,812
Bitcoin

1992
01:11:53,812 --> 01:11:56,152
daily use and use it as a currency

1993
01:11:56,152 --> 01:11:58,372
use it for AI payments and retail payments

1994
01:11:58,372 --> 01:12:00,392
on here. Sort of getting back

1995
01:12:00,392 --> 01:12:02,212
to the white paper title, like

1996
01:12:02,212 --> 01:12:04,392
currency. We talk a lot about that.

1997
01:12:04,872 --> 01:12:06,252
We care a lot about that.

1998
01:12:06,732 --> 01:12:08,352
And we shouldn't lose sight of that narrative

1999
01:12:08,352 --> 01:12:10,052
either. I mean, like one

2000
01:12:10,052 --> 01:12:11,952
while I fully

2001
01:12:11,952 --> 01:12:14,032
believe in the digital gold

2002
01:12:14,032 --> 01:12:16,292
store of value, narrative value

2003
01:12:16,292 --> 01:12:17,352
of Bitcoin, of course,

2004
01:12:17,352 --> 01:12:20,672
it's been 99% of the narrative

2005
01:12:20,672 --> 01:12:22,452
the past like

2006
01:12:22,452 --> 01:12:24,472
4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years

2007
01:12:24,472 --> 01:12:26,232
spending has not been

2008
01:12:26,232 --> 01:12:27,952
probably the past 8 years

2009
01:12:27,952 --> 01:12:30,392
like spending didn't work out in 2013

2010
01:12:30,392 --> 01:12:32,572
and 2014 and then it just like hasn't been part

2011
01:12:32,572 --> 01:12:34,532
of the narrative since then there's all kinds of reasons why

2012
01:12:34,532 --> 01:12:35,632
we covered in the show

2013
01:12:35,632 --> 01:12:38,773
but a lot of those reasons why have been

2014
01:12:38,773 --> 01:12:40,672
solved or

2015
01:12:40,672 --> 01:12:43,092
substantially improved

2016
01:12:43,092 --> 01:12:44,352
there's still a bunch of

2017
01:12:44,352 --> 01:12:46,532
hurdles in front of us but I think

2018
01:12:46,532 --> 01:12:50,392
what we can do now. I mean, keep knocking down those hurdles, but

2019
01:12:50,392 --> 01:12:54,492
just, and we're adding, we're trying to get the

2020
01:12:54,492 --> 01:12:58,392
word out, but others, you know, more people and people

2021
01:12:58,392 --> 01:13:02,452
with broader reach get the word out about this is an important narrative too

2022
01:13:02,452 --> 01:13:05,712
for Bitcoin. And it's, Bitcoin

2023
01:13:05,712 --> 01:13:10,492
isn't, its success is not solely based on digital gold

2024
01:13:10,492 --> 01:13:14,432
narrative. Right. And I actually have a friend who's very obsessed with narrative and he's like,

2025
01:13:14,432 --> 01:13:19,273
what's up? Like gold's winning this narrative. We really got to ask ourselves some hard questions

2026
01:13:19,273 --> 01:13:24,852
about that. And my response to him is basically like, yes, narratives matter and they're very

2027
01:13:24,852 --> 01:13:31,372
important, but you want to be ahead of the next narrative, not chasing down the last narrative.

2028
01:13:32,132 --> 01:13:37,532
And so, you know, you think about, I mean, you know, obviously Google had a huge run up last

2029
01:13:37,532 --> 01:13:44,192
year, but before that, everybody said 10 blue links, that's dead. OpenAI wins the future.

2030
01:13:44,432 --> 01:13:46,912
And now people are like, oh, actually, no, 10 blue links.

2031
01:13:47,012 --> 01:13:48,532
Then there's also this AI thing and all these chips.

2032
01:13:49,032 --> 01:13:51,712
So I think the narrative actually is very quick to change

2033
01:13:51,712 --> 01:13:54,972
when a new meme takes hold.

2034
01:13:56,352 --> 01:13:57,232
Memes rule the world, baby.

2035
01:13:57,332 --> 01:13:57,792
Memes rule the world.

2036
01:13:57,872 --> 01:14:01,732
And so do you want to be late to the previous narrative

2037
01:14:01,732 --> 01:14:03,592
or do you want to be early to the next narrative?

2038
01:14:04,052 --> 01:14:05,712
Early to the next narrative is always the right answer.

2039
01:14:05,752 --> 01:14:07,832
It's just hard to figure out exactly what that is.

2040
01:14:07,832 --> 01:14:12,852
So I agree with all that with some caveats.

2041
01:14:12,852 --> 01:14:16,072
I think the one thing that maybe

2042
01:14:16,072 --> 01:14:20,312
I'm asking myself some hard questions.

2043
01:14:20,532 --> 01:14:23,092
And the answer to the hard question I'm asking is

2044
01:14:23,092 --> 01:14:24,412
I have not been bullish enough on AI.

2045
01:14:25,292 --> 01:14:27,612
And if you're really singularity-billed,

2046
01:14:27,812 --> 01:14:29,432
which increasingly by the day I am,

2047
01:14:29,992 --> 01:14:31,092
then it's like, you know,

2048
01:14:31,232 --> 01:14:32,273
it's like people used to ask me,

2049
01:14:32,312 --> 01:14:33,432
what's the next San Francisco?

2050
01:14:33,432 --> 01:14:34,832
When we were dying in 2020,

2051
01:14:34,952 --> 01:14:36,232
I was like, obviously San Francisco.

2052
01:14:36,412 --> 01:14:37,592
The Bitcoin community one day,

2053
01:14:37,652 --> 01:14:38,252
it's going to be somewhere else.

2054
01:14:38,332 --> 01:14:39,812
Like, it's obviously going to be San Francisco.

2055
01:14:40,612 --> 01:14:41,392
And so when people are like,

2056
01:14:41,412 --> 01:14:41,912
what's the next AI?

2057
01:14:42,012 --> 01:14:42,552
I'm kind of like, well,

2058
01:14:42,852 --> 01:14:47,332
AI because with the recursive loops and all the energy and infrastructure that needs to get built,

2059
01:14:47,412 --> 01:14:50,832
I think we're just at the beginning of it. Now, having said all that, I don't think that's

2060
01:14:50,832 --> 01:14:54,812
necessarily bad for Bitcoin. I think it could be really good for Bitcoin. I think you could go

2061
01:14:54,812 --> 01:15:01,972
either way with it. On the one hand, the risk in my mind is there's black swan risk. If AIs really

2062
01:15:01,972 --> 01:15:05,732
take off and they're off and mobile, we think they're going to use Bitcoin. That's very likely.

2063
01:15:05,932 --> 01:15:08,892
It seems like they are so far, but we also don't know what they might come up with on their own.

2064
01:15:08,892 --> 01:15:10,192
It's just an unknown unknown.

2065
01:15:10,652 --> 01:15:11,332
So that's a risk.

2066
01:15:12,452 --> 01:15:23,773
At the same time, if we can get them using Bitcoin very quickly, and it seems like there's people working on that today, that could be a huge run for Bitcoin where it's just all of a sudden now, hey, Bitcoin is the currency of the AIs.

2067
01:15:23,932 --> 01:15:24,773
It's about to take off.

2068
01:15:25,352 --> 01:15:29,952
I do think, though, to embarrass Will, shout out to our homie Barris, I agree with this.

2069
01:15:30,112 --> 01:15:33,392
People seem to be getting distracted by the perceived opportunity cost.

2070
01:15:33,692 --> 01:15:34,352
I think that's real.

2071
01:15:34,352 --> 01:15:52,012
I think if you have investors who were early and saw Bitcoin as this is, you know, the next big curve to bet on, and they're seeing the curve right now and they're like, okay, we have a lot of vertical left in AI. I mean, you have limited resources and you have to pick which one to put it on. To me, that's the explanation that resonates the most.

2072
01:15:52,012 --> 01:15:59,532
Also, the trust the curves is, I agree with, but you also have to understand which curves you're trusting and how you're expressing.

2073
01:16:00,092 --> 01:16:01,672
I was going to poke it back.

2074
01:16:01,672 --> 01:16:04,412
Is it just buy everything that claims to be an AI company?

2075
01:16:04,412 --> 01:16:09,152
If you trust the curves, Bitcoin's down and silver's in gold is up.

2076
01:16:09,352 --> 01:16:10,072
Are you buying silver?

2077
01:16:10,452 --> 01:16:13,092
Like, sell your Bitcoin for the stuff going up.

2078
01:16:13,392 --> 01:16:16,652
So, I mean, you got to know which curve to trust.

2079
01:16:17,112 --> 01:16:18,052
But I want to be clear.

2080
01:16:18,132 --> 01:16:19,392
I'm not just saying trust the curves, bro.

2081
01:16:19,392 --> 01:16:21,852
Like, I'm actually being pretty, pretty specific about this.

2082
01:16:21,852 --> 01:16:24,032
I'm saying energy and computation

2083
01:16:24,032 --> 01:16:25,932
and intelligence is a function of those.

2084
01:16:26,192 --> 01:16:27,052
So if you try...

2085
01:16:27,052 --> 01:16:27,852
But like DK said,

2086
01:16:27,892 --> 01:16:29,532
you have to know which curves to cross.

2087
01:16:29,552 --> 01:16:30,352
And I'm being very clear.

2088
01:16:30,472 --> 01:16:32,072
I have said this before and I mean this.

2089
01:16:32,132 --> 01:16:33,572
I don't know if I would ever invest in a startup,

2090
01:16:33,872 --> 01:16:35,432
a software startup ever again.

2091
01:16:35,773 --> 01:16:37,312
Honestly, I think the companies that matter

2092
01:16:37,312 --> 01:16:39,452
are Anthropic, XAI and Elon Co.

2093
01:16:39,732 --> 01:16:41,352
And Google and probably OpenAI.

2094
01:16:41,632 --> 01:16:42,692
And that's probably it.

2095
01:16:42,792 --> 01:16:43,172
And NVIDIA.

2096
01:16:43,252 --> 01:16:44,152
We talked about that last time.

2097
01:16:44,472 --> 01:16:46,492
And then I think all the energy infrastructure builders...

2098
01:16:46,492 --> 01:16:47,912
So NB and Intel are off the table?

2099
01:16:48,492 --> 01:16:49,932
I mean, maybe, but like...

2100
01:16:49,932 --> 01:16:51,172
They could argue they're an AI company.

2101
01:16:51,172 --> 01:16:51,672
Okay, fine, fine.

2102
01:16:51,773 --> 01:16:52,732
If you want to add like...

2103
01:16:52,732 --> 01:16:53,232
TSMC?

2104
01:16:53,372 --> 01:16:54,972
If you want to add like the tier B on there,

2105
01:16:55,052 --> 01:16:55,812
they're going to be fine too.

2106
01:16:55,872 --> 01:16:58,512
But like, if you just want to maximize returns,

2107
01:16:58,732 --> 01:16:59,792
tier A is where I would bet.

2108
01:16:59,972 --> 01:17:00,332
But fine.

2109
01:17:00,452 --> 01:17:01,112
But still subjective.

2110
01:17:01,112 --> 01:17:01,752
And the energy...

2111
01:17:01,752 --> 01:17:02,172
It is subjective.

2112
01:17:02,252 --> 01:17:03,672
I'm just giving my perspective.

2113
01:17:03,812 --> 01:17:05,852
But my point is, you know,

2114
01:17:06,032 --> 01:17:07,032
am I buying silver or gold?

2115
01:17:07,112 --> 01:17:08,532
Well, I think silver, a big part of the run-up

2116
01:17:08,532 --> 01:17:09,952
is it's necessary for solar panels.

2117
01:17:10,112 --> 01:17:11,012
And if you're super solar-filled...

2118
01:17:11,012 --> 01:17:12,952
Someone says it's down 28% today.

2119
01:17:13,172 --> 01:17:13,972
So I literally...

2120
01:17:13,972 --> 01:17:15,172
Sure, but look at it over the last six months.

2121
01:17:15,172 --> 01:17:16,892
I literally had a call from someone yesterday

2122
01:17:16,892 --> 01:17:17,592
saying like,

2123
01:17:18,152 --> 01:17:20,332
I'm thinking about selling all my Bitcoin.

2124
01:17:20,332 --> 01:17:26,912
I would talk to a friend and sell all my Bitcoin and buy like gold and silver because it's going up.

2125
01:17:27,192 --> 01:17:28,432
And I'm like, that is just crazy.

2126
01:17:28,572 --> 01:17:30,552
I mean, I basically made the point you made.

2127
01:17:30,932 --> 01:17:33,852
It's like, you know, history doesn't necessarily repeat, right?

2128
01:17:34,192 --> 01:17:35,992
I mean, basically, what's your thesis, right?

2129
01:17:36,172 --> 01:17:36,412
Yes.

2130
01:17:37,012 --> 01:17:38,092
That's what's important.

2131
01:17:38,312 --> 01:17:38,632
I agree.

2132
01:17:39,212 --> 01:17:43,692
And don't make these sudden like momentum buys or sells.

2133
01:17:44,112 --> 01:17:45,032
I want to be very clear.

2134
01:17:45,152 --> 01:17:47,872
There's a big difference between the momentum and it's hard.

2135
01:17:47,872 --> 01:17:49,852
And you want to think about this as rationally as possible.

2136
01:17:49,852 --> 01:18:12,352
Like there's just like, hey man, like, you know, it's 2017 again, like we're up all the way to 20K. Let's keep going. Then we crash, right? I think there's a fundamental difference between do you believe this is momentum and it's just going to come down and maybe there's like some medium ground where it is short term or do you really believe we're at the early stages of a takeoff and the takeoff is about to go vertical?

2137
01:18:12,352 --> 01:18:15,792
And like, you know, again, you can debate like, what do you do if that's the case?

2138
01:18:15,892 --> 01:18:17,712
But, and I'm not saying Bitcoin is a bad thing.

2139
01:18:17,752 --> 01:18:21,992
There's a very, very good case that Bitcoin is one of the only assets that does well in

2140
01:18:21,992 --> 01:18:23,352
that world where there's AI takeoff.

2141
01:18:23,792 --> 01:18:28,032
But like, I think it really comes down to like, what I'm noticing in the world is there's

2142
01:18:28,032 --> 01:18:28,652
a bifurcation.

2143
01:18:29,092 --> 01:18:31,712
There are people that are crazy AGI pilled.

2144
01:18:32,112 --> 01:18:33,773
Most of them are the ones actually developing the models.

2145
01:18:34,032 --> 01:18:36,252
And then there's people that are not yet.

2146
01:18:36,732 --> 01:18:38,912
And that's what I see as a split.

2147
01:18:40,492 --> 01:18:41,792
Just another anecdote.

2148
01:18:41,792 --> 01:18:47,472
A person called me who has a fairly good amount of Bitcoin holdings,

2149
01:18:47,712 --> 01:18:50,552
and they're talking about buying copper.

2150
01:18:51,232 --> 01:18:52,992
And I'm like, do you even know why?

2151
01:18:53,752 --> 01:18:54,552
I don't know the thesis.

2152
01:18:56,812 --> 01:18:59,672
It's gone up 6x, I think.

2153
01:18:59,752 --> 01:19:00,332
I looked it up.

2154
01:19:00,532 --> 01:19:02,432
It's gone up 6x the past few years or whatever.

2155
01:19:02,832 --> 01:19:03,732
I guess that's the reason why.

2156
01:19:03,832 --> 01:19:07,172
But I mean, obviously, these commodities like copper or silver,

2157
01:19:07,312 --> 01:19:10,092
clearly they are valuable.

2158
01:19:10,092 --> 01:19:10,812
They're used.

2159
01:19:10,812 --> 01:19:12,612
but they're not really

2160
01:19:12,612 --> 01:19:13,592
they don't really have

2161
01:19:13,592 --> 01:19:15,152
or in my opinion

2162
01:19:15,152 --> 01:19:16,112
they should not have

2163
01:19:16,112 --> 01:19:17,172
a monetary premium

2164
01:19:17,172 --> 01:19:18,632
and I don't know

2165
01:19:18,632 --> 01:19:19,892
actually I don't even really know

2166
01:19:19,892 --> 01:19:20,773
how much monetary premium

2167
01:19:20,773 --> 01:19:21,252
they have

2168
01:19:21,252 --> 01:19:22,812
but they're clearly valuable

2169
01:19:22,812 --> 01:19:23,732
and they have these

2170
01:19:23,732 --> 01:19:24,632
industrial uses

2171
01:19:24,632 --> 01:19:25,792
commercial uses

2172
01:19:25,792 --> 01:19:27,132
so if

2173
01:19:27,132 --> 01:19:28,932
demand supply

2174
01:19:28,932 --> 01:19:29,852
gets out of whack

2175
01:19:29,852 --> 01:19:30,452
you want to

2176
01:19:30,452 --> 01:19:30,912
you know

2177
01:19:30,912 --> 01:19:32,312
supply is exceeding

2178
01:19:32,312 --> 01:19:33,632
or demand exceeding supply

2179
01:19:33,632 --> 01:19:34,432
owning it

2180
01:19:34,432 --> 01:19:35,332
can make sense

2181
01:19:35,332 --> 01:19:35,912
but my

2182
01:19:35,912 --> 01:19:37,012
but it's just a

2183
01:19:37,012 --> 01:19:37,472
first of all

2184
01:19:37,472 --> 01:19:38,492
it's a very different

2185
01:19:38,492 --> 01:19:39,072
investment

2186
01:19:39,072 --> 01:19:40,492
than gold

2187
01:19:40,492 --> 01:19:42,273
or certainly Bitcoin.

2188
01:19:42,612 --> 01:19:43,752
Gold has some industrial use,

2189
01:19:43,832 --> 01:19:45,492
but it's primarily monetary premium.

2190
01:19:46,192 --> 01:19:48,612
The other is much less monetary premium.

2191
01:19:49,292 --> 01:19:51,192
Bitcoin is pure monetary premium

2192
01:19:51,192 --> 01:19:53,552
because it has no industrial use cases.

2193
01:19:53,712 --> 01:19:53,832
Yeah.

2194
01:19:54,332 --> 01:19:56,232
And so, first of all,

2195
01:19:56,332 --> 01:19:57,492
it's a very different investment.

2196
01:19:57,692 --> 01:19:59,832
But then the second thing I'd ask is like,

2197
01:19:59,832 --> 01:20:04,512
okay, looking at future TAM

2198
01:20:04,512 --> 01:20:05,972
and compare it like,

2199
01:20:06,452 --> 01:20:08,672
I actually think the run up in gold

2200
01:20:08,672 --> 01:20:10,312
is phenomenal news for Bitcoin.

2201
01:20:10,492 --> 01:20:13,952
Because gold's gone from about $10 trillion to almost $40 trillion.

2202
01:20:14,612 --> 01:20:14,752
Yeah.

2203
01:20:14,872 --> 01:20:15,112
Really?

2204
01:20:15,312 --> 01:20:15,732
Oh, shit.

2205
01:20:15,892 --> 01:20:20,852
It's like, I mean, I haven't checked the price today, but, you know, it hit like $37 plus trillion.

2206
01:20:21,412 --> 01:20:21,972
Oh, my goodness.

2207
01:20:22,992 --> 01:20:24,152
Which is like, we were...

2208
01:20:24,152 --> 01:20:34,072
We were looking at like, okay, now all of a sudden, I mean, it used to be this sort of like, I mean, you know, Bitcoin's a sideshow, but like gold is definitely a sideshow compared to like the bond and stock market.

2209
01:20:34,072 --> 01:20:40,132
But we are looking at U.S. bond market and gold is almost the same size.

2210
01:20:40,492 --> 01:20:41,273
As the U.S. bond market.

2211
01:20:42,352 --> 01:20:44,992
It's over half the size of the U.S. stock market.

2212
01:20:46,312 --> 01:20:46,792
Wow.

2213
01:20:47,052 --> 01:20:49,032
So, like, they're now comparable.

2214
01:20:49,352 --> 01:20:52,452
I mean, if it goes to 10K, then it's the same size, right?

2215
01:20:52,773 --> 01:20:53,752
So that's...

2216
01:20:53,752 --> 01:20:57,712
Do you warm up to the idea of not holding S&P 500 index?

2217
01:20:58,732 --> 01:21:00,192
What? Oh, what?

2218
01:21:00,632 --> 01:21:02,432
Oh, I'll let you guys discuss this.

2219
01:21:02,532 --> 01:21:03,032
I'll be right back.

2220
01:21:03,972 --> 01:21:05,332
I still don't understand that argument.

2221
01:21:05,332 --> 01:21:06,412
Drops it all and walks out.

2222
01:21:06,412 --> 01:21:10,032
I still recommend people who want stock exposure

2223
01:21:10,032 --> 01:21:10,952
and to keep it simple,

2224
01:21:11,072 --> 01:21:14,012
just buy that S&P 500 index.

2225
01:21:14,392 --> 01:21:14,992
It's like...

2226
01:21:14,992 --> 01:21:15,632
So this one does.

2227
01:21:16,432 --> 01:21:17,992
Very, very low fees.

2228
01:21:18,273 --> 01:21:20,492
Very, very good tax properties.

2229
01:21:21,232 --> 01:21:22,972
And you get diverse exposure.

2230
01:21:23,472 --> 01:21:24,092
There we go.

2231
01:21:24,312 --> 01:21:26,892
I'm not here to show stock indexes.

2232
01:21:26,892 --> 01:21:29,832
But my point is,

2233
01:21:30,012 --> 01:21:32,992
I think it's gold depreciation is good news.

2234
01:21:33,312 --> 01:21:34,652
It's good news for Bitcoin.

2235
01:21:34,652 --> 01:21:36,492
because first of all,

2236
01:21:37,012 --> 01:21:39,112
for the digital gold narrative,

2237
01:21:39,412 --> 01:21:40,032
what's the TAM?

2238
01:21:40,152 --> 01:21:41,192
Well, it always used to be,

2239
01:21:41,352 --> 01:21:42,512
well, gold's...

2240
01:21:42,512 --> 01:21:43,792
The easiest explanation

2241
01:21:43,792 --> 01:21:45,212
to someone who's not orange-pilled yet

2242
01:21:45,212 --> 01:21:46,852
from an investor standpoint

2243
01:21:46,852 --> 01:21:48,472
has always been digital gold.

2244
01:21:49,892 --> 01:21:50,492
And it's like,

2245
01:21:50,532 --> 01:21:51,232
well, it's $10 trillion.

2246
01:21:51,412 --> 01:21:52,932
So if we go from $100 billion

2247
01:21:52,932 --> 01:21:53,532
to $10 trillion,

2248
01:21:53,712 --> 01:21:54,632
you can get...

2249
01:21:54,632 --> 01:21:55,732
So now it's,

2250
01:21:55,773 --> 01:21:57,512
well, now it's $40 trillion, right?

2251
01:21:57,512 --> 01:21:58,632
I mean, because then Bitcoin

2252
01:21:58,632 --> 01:21:59,172
at $2 trillion,

2253
01:21:59,292 --> 01:21:59,652
and it's like,

2254
01:21:59,732 --> 01:22:01,712
well, it could still 5x from now.

2255
01:22:02,312 --> 01:22:02,892
And then all of a sudden,

2256
01:22:03,032 --> 01:22:03,592
like Satan and others

2257
01:22:03,592 --> 01:22:05,012
are inventing new dams.

2258
01:22:05,172 --> 01:22:06,232
Like, oh, it's going to take over

2259
01:22:06,232 --> 01:22:07,032
the entire economy

2260
01:22:07,032 --> 01:22:08,372
and be a trillion dollar,

2261
01:22:08,732 --> 01:22:10,032
you know, or,

2262
01:22:10,232 --> 01:22:11,572
sorry, not trillion,

2263
01:22:11,672 --> 01:22:13,392
but like a thousand trillion,

2264
01:22:13,492 --> 01:22:14,252
a quadrillion, right?

2265
01:22:14,552 --> 01:22:15,612
There's ways you can draw

2266
01:22:15,612 --> 01:22:16,932
the entire economy.

2267
01:22:17,872 --> 01:22:19,552
I've seen real estate estimates

2268
01:22:19,552 --> 01:22:21,732
from 300 to 600 trillion.

2269
01:22:21,932 --> 01:22:23,552
So if it's 600 trillion,

2270
01:22:23,672 --> 01:22:25,152
maybe you can get to a thousand trillion.

2271
01:22:26,572 --> 01:22:28,252
So yeah, so then, okay,

2272
01:22:28,452 --> 01:22:30,232
how are we going to 10x or 100x Bitcoin?

2273
01:22:30,492 --> 01:22:32,092
Oh, it takes over the entire economy.

2274
01:22:33,092 --> 01:22:35,432
But just sticking to the simple explanation,

2275
01:22:35,592 --> 01:22:37,812
which I think find the most plausible and believable,

2276
01:22:38,072 --> 01:22:38,692
is gold.

2277
01:22:39,052 --> 01:22:41,992
Well, now $40 trillion and Bitcoin's under $2 trillion.

2278
01:22:41,992 --> 01:22:44,112
That's over 20x.

2279
01:22:44,372 --> 01:22:47,732
So is copper going to 20x?

2280
01:22:48,352 --> 01:22:50,432
Well, I want to make two points in here

2281
01:22:50,432 --> 01:22:51,332
that I think are very clear.

2282
01:22:51,592 --> 01:22:54,852
So again, you said Bitcoin is very different

2283
01:22:54,852 --> 01:22:57,273
than the metals play.

2284
01:22:57,632 --> 01:22:59,672
Gold has some industrial use cases,

2285
01:22:59,812 --> 01:23:01,172
but Bitcoin is pure monetary premium.

2286
01:23:01,172 --> 01:23:06,752
I want to be clear, like the reason one would be buying into the metal stuff,

2287
01:23:07,452 --> 01:23:12,152
absent just like FOMO momentum, which is certainly part of it, is if you listen to someone like Elon

2288
01:23:12,152 --> 01:23:17,412
saying he's going to put hundreds of gigawatts of compute in space in three years. And I know

2289
01:23:17,412 --> 01:23:22,412
sometimes Elon doesn't always hit his timeframe, but let's say he's even directionally right.

2290
01:23:22,792 --> 01:23:27,672
Then you look, you say, hmm, what might one need to build hundreds of gigawatts of compute? And you

2291
01:23:27,672 --> 01:23:32,392
go work backwards silver for the solar panels what's in the batteries i think that that's like

2292
01:23:32,392 --> 01:23:35,852
the the use case of what's happening now is industrial that has nothing to do with bitcoin

2293
01:23:35,852 --> 01:23:40,872
silver out there well and so and so i think and then if you want to go to the next level right

2294
01:23:40,872 --> 01:23:48,092
then you say okay well if if i mean this is always the reason that bitcoin was proposed is like you

2295
01:23:48,092 --> 01:23:50,652
know we're going to have asteroid if you really believe in the singularity and all that's going

2296
01:23:50,652 --> 01:23:54,952
to happen quickly then you're like okay we'll just go either you know mine the gold and silver from

2297
01:23:54,952 --> 01:23:59,352
asteroids or we'll figure out alchemy and we'll just make it here on earth and like if we have

2298
01:23:59,352 --> 01:24:03,492
free energy then like in theory that should be possible so i think that then brings you back to

2299
01:24:03,492 --> 01:24:07,972
bitcoin as bitcoin is the perfect store value monetary premium but but you know time frame

2300
01:24:07,972 --> 01:24:12,872
matters like are we talking this is six months six years like that's a question um and then i think

2301
01:24:12,872 --> 01:24:17,632
you know i would be reticent not to to ask i think we as a community the real question i always ask

2302
01:24:17,632 --> 01:24:22,332
myself we're violating the bitcoin thesis is has anything fundamentally changed the fact that

2303
01:24:22,332 --> 01:24:25,372
precious metals are popping, irrelevant. The fact that all this other stuff, irrelevant.

2304
01:24:25,612 --> 01:24:30,532
The question I ask myself is, is there something that has fundamentally changed about Bitcoin?

2305
01:24:30,732 --> 01:24:34,832
One possibility is quantum. We've talked about that. I don't know if we have the quantum one

2306
01:24:34,832 --> 01:24:38,472
pager out or whatever yet, but that's a real question. I don't think we should ignore it.

2307
01:24:39,332 --> 01:24:43,312
But then there's this, to me, the only thing that makes me concerned is the unknown unknowns.

2308
01:24:43,532 --> 01:24:49,092
Once you hit AGI, do they break the second law of thermodynamics with new physics? Do they

2309
01:24:49,092 --> 01:24:51,392
figure out new form, like break cryptography

2310
01:24:51,392 --> 01:24:53,212
in some way that we're not expecting

2311
01:24:53,212 --> 01:24:54,412
with quantum or something else.

2312
01:24:54,832 --> 01:24:56,912
I don't think those things are likely necessarily,

2313
01:24:57,192 --> 01:24:59,012
but when you're racing through singularity,

2314
01:24:59,052 --> 01:25:00,252
by definition, you don't know.

2315
01:25:00,392 --> 01:25:02,672
And so, I don't know, like, does it make sense

2316
01:25:02,672 --> 01:25:04,732
for someone to hold their shiny rock just in case?

2317
01:25:04,732 --> 01:25:06,112
But then if you're going there, though,

2318
01:25:06,192 --> 01:25:07,672
then you've got to question like

2319
01:25:07,672 --> 01:25:10,632
U.S. dollar, treasuries, bonds, stocks.

2320
01:25:10,732 --> 01:25:11,132
100%.

2321
01:25:11,132 --> 01:25:12,232
All of that could blow up.

2322
01:25:12,552 --> 01:25:13,732
It's a totally different world.

2323
01:25:13,852 --> 01:25:15,032
And maybe something like gold.

2324
01:25:15,132 --> 01:25:16,512
So should stocks go to zero?

2325
01:25:17,212 --> 01:25:18,052
Well, it depends.

2326
01:25:18,052 --> 01:25:20,192
I mean, everyone except for the four.

2327
01:25:20,752 --> 01:25:22,212
Some people who are like,

2328
01:25:22,332 --> 01:25:23,692
do quantum or AGI as a threat?

2329
01:25:23,813 --> 01:25:25,273
It's like, oh, Bitcoin has no value

2330
01:25:25,273 --> 01:25:26,512
because this could happen.

2331
01:25:26,852 --> 01:25:27,692
Well, then I would argue,

2332
01:25:27,813 --> 01:25:28,952
okay, stocks should have no value.

2333
01:25:29,072 --> 01:25:30,232
They literally should be worth nothing.

2334
01:25:30,592 --> 01:25:31,612
Because it could.

2335
01:25:31,832 --> 01:25:33,072
We can come up with a scenario.

2336
01:25:33,432 --> 01:25:34,112
It's possible.

2337
01:25:34,632 --> 01:25:35,532
That's possible too.

2338
01:25:35,892 --> 01:25:37,072
You've mentioned before in the show

2339
01:25:37,072 --> 01:25:40,632
that money is not needed anymore.

2340
01:25:40,752 --> 01:25:41,572
And to be clear.

2341
01:25:42,712 --> 01:25:43,112
Abundancy.

2342
01:25:43,432 --> 01:25:44,773
No one has a need for anything.

2343
01:25:44,952 --> 01:25:46,472
So why do we need companies anymore?

2344
01:25:46,472 --> 01:25:48,132
But all the companies will go to zero.

2345
01:25:48,572 --> 01:25:51,452
So, I mean, I think you have to seriously consider everything.

2346
01:25:51,452 --> 01:25:52,352
And who even cares about it?

2347
01:25:52,512 --> 01:25:55,532
Who cares if our Bitcoin goes to zero if we have abundancy?

2348
01:25:55,792 --> 01:26:03,132
If I have everything I want in life, why do I care about my investment portfolio?

2349
01:26:03,192 --> 01:26:03,773
And that's great.

2350
01:26:03,912 --> 01:26:05,732
And that's one positive way of looking at it.

2351
01:26:05,732 --> 01:26:07,792
So then that's not a reason to sell your Bitcoin.

2352
01:26:07,932 --> 01:26:12,212
Because in the world where money still matters, you want to hold Bitcoin, arguably.

2353
01:26:12,532 --> 01:26:16,412
In a world where money doesn't matter, then who cares if I was or was not holding Bitcoin?

2354
01:26:16,472 --> 01:26:17,472
I agree with you 100%.

2355
01:26:17,472 --> 01:26:19,392
To be fair, I think there's another argument, though,

2356
01:26:19,412 --> 01:26:20,692
that says, you know,

2357
01:26:21,532 --> 01:26:24,252
if something happens during takeoff

2358
01:26:24,252 --> 01:26:25,813
that we're not expecting with Bitcoin,

2359
01:26:26,372 --> 01:26:28,752
but sadly, and this is the kind of, you know,

2360
01:26:29,172 --> 01:26:30,532
maybe less than ideal situation,

2361
01:26:30,792 --> 01:26:33,112
stocks are going to get protected basically by violence,

2362
01:26:33,352 --> 01:26:34,732
which would be the U.S. military.

2363
01:26:35,532 --> 01:26:36,132
Always has been.

2364
01:26:37,332 --> 01:26:38,652
That's the other answer.

2365
01:26:38,712 --> 01:26:39,612
I'm not saying it's likely.

2366
01:26:39,752 --> 01:26:41,813
I'm just saying that's...

2367
01:26:41,813 --> 01:26:45,912
Well, in dollar, but I still don't see, like, the...

2368
01:26:45,912 --> 01:26:46,572
the whole experience.

2369
01:26:47,232 --> 01:26:47,452
Anyway.

2370
01:26:47,892 --> 01:26:49,492
Anyways, yeah, for another show.

2371
01:26:49,672 --> 01:26:51,252
Anyway, I think one of the things,

2372
01:26:51,552 --> 01:26:52,813
one of the properties of Bitcoin

2373
01:26:52,813 --> 01:26:56,232
that I think has been, you know,

2374
01:26:56,632 --> 01:26:57,813
foundational, fundamental,

2375
01:26:57,972 --> 01:27:00,192
like you cannot have Bitcoin without

2376
01:27:00,192 --> 01:27:01,952
is the immaculate conception.

2377
01:27:02,212 --> 01:27:02,352
Yeah.

2378
01:27:03,012 --> 01:27:05,372
And with bots and AGI

2379
01:27:05,372 --> 01:27:06,972
potentially around the corner

2380
01:27:06,972 --> 01:27:08,512
happening now, maybe during the show.

2381
01:27:08,932 --> 01:27:09,412
Yeah, exactly.

2382
01:27:09,572 --> 01:27:10,112
You could imagine,

2383
01:27:10,412 --> 01:27:11,752
if there were a better way,

2384
01:27:12,313 --> 01:27:12,872
you know, it's not,

2385
01:27:12,872 --> 01:27:14,773
you could imagine that agents

2386
01:27:14,773 --> 01:27:18,052
could come up with a new form of an immaculate conception

2387
01:27:18,052 --> 01:27:19,572
that we have not imagined yet.

2388
01:27:20,092 --> 01:27:23,032
Now, that doesn't, again, it's like super long-tail risk.

2389
01:27:23,372 --> 01:27:25,692
It's not a reason to really be concerned,

2390
01:27:25,792 --> 01:27:26,773
but it's the kind of thing I'd...

2391
01:27:26,773 --> 01:27:27,352
It's not impossible.

2392
01:27:27,372 --> 01:27:30,273
I think it's worth just like observing.

2393
01:27:30,372 --> 01:27:32,392
Let me pull on the string because I think it's really interesting.

2394
01:27:32,852 --> 01:27:35,052
So, well, we don't know what this new

2395
01:27:35,052 --> 01:27:37,712
fair distribution model would be,

2396
01:27:37,932 --> 01:27:41,612
but if somehow it's fair, whatever that means,

2397
01:27:42,212 --> 01:27:44,313
it's interesting to think about then

2398
01:27:44,313 --> 01:27:47,892
how do people get in, what amounts, etc.

2399
01:27:48,212 --> 01:27:53,152
Meaning like, oh, well, if person A has 10 times more money than person B,

2400
01:27:53,392 --> 01:27:55,872
are they going to get 10 times more of this new thing or not?

2401
01:27:55,932 --> 01:27:57,012
Is that fair or not?

2402
01:27:57,432 --> 01:28:00,652
Or is fair that everyone in the world gets the same amount,

2403
01:28:01,232 --> 01:28:03,672
in which case it doesn't matter what your current assets are?

2404
01:28:06,432 --> 01:28:08,672
And if you're born the day after the distribution.

2405
01:28:08,672 --> 01:28:11,672
And if, yeah, and then if you, if, if.

2406
01:28:11,852 --> 01:28:12,032
Is that fair?

2407
01:28:12,552 --> 01:28:14,552
Permanent underclass, is that what the kids are called?

2408
01:28:14,552 --> 01:28:17,692
How would this new immaculate conception be introduced?

2409
01:28:18,952 --> 01:28:20,992
I mean, it just seems fundamentally impossible

2410
01:28:20,992 --> 01:28:23,032
that the whole world wakes up at the same time.

2411
01:28:23,172 --> 01:28:27,472
So if it's like, well, 0.01% of people learn on day one,

2412
01:28:27,552 --> 01:28:30,872
and then there's multiple waves of awareness, right?

2413
01:28:30,992 --> 01:28:35,372
Well, early awareness is going to still have this valuable Bitcoin,

2414
01:28:35,752 --> 01:28:38,492
and they realize, oh, shit, Bitcoin's going to zero

2415
01:28:38,492 --> 01:28:42,072
because the AI created a way better system

2416
01:28:42,072 --> 01:28:45,172
and they sell their Bitcoin for this new one

2417
01:28:45,172 --> 01:28:46,352
and they accumulate a lot of that.

2418
01:28:46,472 --> 01:28:47,952
So it still just seems like fundamentally

2419
01:28:47,952 --> 01:28:51,472
there'll be waves and whoever's early takes risk.

2420
01:28:51,612 --> 01:28:52,652
But what if they're wrong?

2421
01:28:53,212 --> 01:28:55,412
And then they dumped all their Bitcoin, oh shit.

2422
01:28:55,692 --> 01:28:56,712
And they shouldn't have, right?

2423
01:28:56,773 --> 01:28:59,832
So it's the same kind of risk reward trade-off you get

2424
01:28:59,832 --> 01:29:01,972
if you're an early adopter or laggard.

2425
01:29:02,472 --> 01:29:05,212
So I don't see much different there.

2426
01:29:05,712 --> 01:29:08,372
Yeah, I mean, it's more like a thought experiment

2427
01:29:08,372 --> 01:29:09,912
than like actual concern.

2428
01:29:10,292 --> 01:29:11,292
The other thought I had too,

2429
01:29:11,412 --> 01:29:14,692
like if AGI comes up with the new money system

2430
01:29:14,692 --> 01:29:15,972
that's way, way, way better.

2431
01:29:16,592 --> 01:29:18,912
If we're in a world where AGI is kind of,

2432
01:29:20,052 --> 01:29:22,192
if that new money is not good for humans,

2433
01:29:22,273 --> 01:29:23,832
but good for it, it's just used by AI.

2434
01:29:23,972 --> 01:29:24,112
Yeah.

2435
01:29:24,212 --> 01:29:26,612
Then I would argue that humans will still value Bitcoin.

2436
01:29:26,752 --> 01:29:27,692
Two economies could emerge.

2437
01:29:28,052 --> 01:29:29,132
You know, because like,

2438
01:29:29,192 --> 01:29:31,892
well, this money is optimized for us,

2439
01:29:32,012 --> 01:29:32,592
not the AI.

2440
01:29:32,592 --> 01:29:33,912
Or it also works for the AI,

2441
01:29:34,012 --> 01:29:34,832
but it's up for us.

2442
01:29:35,072 --> 01:29:35,732
And also we have,

2443
01:29:35,813 --> 01:29:37,032
we have our private keys

2444
01:29:37,032 --> 01:29:38,332
and the AI can't access them.

2445
01:29:38,372 --> 01:29:40,273
where if the AI creates a new money

2446
01:29:40,273 --> 01:29:43,372
if the AI

2447
01:29:43,372 --> 01:29:46,152
creates its own money

2448
01:29:46,152 --> 01:29:48,332
then you live in a world

2449
01:29:48,332 --> 01:29:49,532
where can you have your

2450
01:29:49,532 --> 01:29:52,152
private access and the AI doesn't have it? I don't know

2451
01:29:52,152 --> 01:29:53,232
depending on what that money is

2452
01:29:53,232 --> 01:29:55,552
All I know is Vinny's giving us the alpha

2453
01:29:55,552 --> 01:29:57,852
it's time to just buy buckets of DRAM boys

2454
01:29:57,852 --> 01:30:03,212
That's the new commodity

2455
01:30:03,212 --> 01:30:06,092
Spicy show, that's what Nick says

2456
01:30:06,092 --> 01:30:06,612
to some other people

2457
01:30:06,612 --> 01:30:09,172
I think my big takeaway is

2458
01:30:09,172 --> 01:30:11,232
I'm certainly not advocating pandering like that

2459
01:30:11,232 --> 01:30:13,032
I just think it's good to go with

2460
01:30:13,032 --> 01:30:15,292
eyes wide open and just understand a lot of

2461
01:30:15,292 --> 01:30:17,313
things are changing and I mean it's probably

2462
01:30:17,313 --> 01:30:19,332
going to be a really awesome time like I think it's important

2463
01:30:19,332 --> 01:30:20,912
we keep a positive answer too you know

2464
01:30:20,912 --> 01:30:23,352
so like more likely than not it's going to be fun

2465
01:30:23,352 --> 01:30:25,232
I have a hard time not just being psyched about all of the

2466
01:30:25,232 --> 01:30:27,372
new tools we get to play with and the way

2467
01:30:27,372 --> 01:30:29,352
the world's going I mean you know there's good and bad

2468
01:30:29,352 --> 01:30:31,132
but on the net seems really good

2469
01:30:31,132 --> 01:30:33,372
it's an exciting time to be living

2470
01:30:33,372 --> 01:30:34,792
it's never been more

2471
01:30:34,792 --> 01:30:37,152
been easier to make your ideas a reality.

2472
01:30:37,773 --> 01:30:38,872
It's never been easier to collaborate

2473
01:30:38,872 --> 01:30:40,532
with friends, with new

2474
01:30:40,532 --> 01:30:42,273
agentic friends.

2475
01:30:43,472 --> 01:30:44,392
It's going to be cool.

2476
01:30:45,892 --> 01:30:46,132
Alrighty.

2477
01:30:46,432 --> 01:30:47,472
Good show, guys.

2478
01:30:47,472 --> 01:30:48,032
We will wrap.